I really do understand this part of women. It's kinda like not being able to get a job without experience...and they want experienced applicants...but you can't get the job that would give you the experience.<p>I am willing, and to some extent already have, been trying to provide all her ENs. Even left job to look for new job to be better at FS...<p>But my top three are SF, Aff., and Adm. Well, she doesn't feel she can provide SF right now with all that we have been through in the last several years...look for my topic in EN if interested. And I got the "brother-sister" talk the other night, so no true affection on the horizon...(what I wouldn't give gor a good old fashioned high school night of necking...)<p>That leaves admiration. Well, if she admired me, she would have told me that I need a new job as mine embarrasses her. <p>So I am ready to like the toejam off her feet, and I can't hope for anything more than recreational companionship...and we don't even have time for that. She is so busy, I can't get her to commit to 15 hours for us either. WE are reading LB right now, just finished chap. 2.<p>I have been talking the ENs up since I found this website a few weeks ago, and she is finding it helpful, but liking it, and DOING it are two different things. She just isn't ready. She is busy trying to shake an attraction that was a telephone EA, and I still can't convince her that the only way to shake the addiction is to cut off all contact...she thinks her friendship can help him. Sheesh.<p>So. I know I am a bad person for expecting her to provide me with SF even when she doesn't "feel" that way about her husband of 25 years. And the frustration is really starting to affect her balance with me. <p>I need the thoughts of the sharpest message board in town. Thanks.

OK, so what are her reasons for no sex? Therein might lie the solution to your problem.<p>Now, I'm a woman, so I'll give you my take on things if I were in the position where I did not wish to have sex with my husband if "no" apparent reason were available.<p>To start with, I would want him to court me again. Take me out on some dates without pushing the sex. Touch my hand, look into my eyes, hold doors open for me, basically BE ROMANTIC. (Remember us women fall for men not so much on looks, but on gentleness, kindness, thoughtfulness, and the amount of attention they GIVE us!!)<p>I would think after a few dates like this over a few weeks, I would begin to soften. To realize the depth that my H cares for me.<p>Then ease into things. Just like when you were dating a "GOOD Girl" for the first time. You didn't jump all over her and paw her to death on the first date. You eased into it. And if she ever pulled back, you pulled back to and waited until the next time to try again. (Believe me, I remember those days as I was a "good girl"!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) When she gets to a point she pulls back, wait. Wait a week, do the things that she seemed to enjoy on the previous dates. Sometimes the best way to get something we want is to GIVE something the other person wants first!! As you meet her ENs, this will begin to take place. BE PATIENT, US WOMEN CAN BE ODD CREATURES!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

I agree with jamup. Sometimes men forget that women need to be romanced, even in long term relationships. You cannot expect SF out of her just because she’s married to you. If she gave it just for that reason it would not be long before she had an aversion to SF. Jamup gave some good ideas. I second them.<p>Have you read this article, The Walkaway Wife Syndrome? It might explain some of where your wife is coming from these days.

Hi Willy,<p> I am still a newbie but I'd like to take a shot. To get SF you have to meet your wife's needs. Has she taken the EN quiz? You should think about trying to meet some of her needs to fire up her SF need.<p> Some good advice was made about going out on dates. The example of remembering what it was like to date a good girl instead of pawing her and getting right to it was excellent as well.<p> My suggestion is for you to show some affection without expecting or anticipating SF. Have some inner control. Try going up behind her when she is standing at the kitchen counter and just hugging her. Kiss her neck and then just walk away. If you are watching TV together ask if she would lay her head in your lap and gently stroke her face or her hair. Compliment her at various times of the day. Shower together and ask to wash her hair or her back. Towel her dry when she gets out of the shower. Do all of these with no expectation in return.<p> I think many times it may be misconstrued that affection will lead right to SF. When I would do these things for my H, that was his misinterpretation. When actually these were things I wanted done to me. <p> Make her feel desirable, attractive and respected. Let her know you cherrish her through your sincere actions.<p> I'm not sure if this helps but I know if My H tried these I would be more receptive. But I know I have a need for affection. Find out what your wife's needs are.
Good Luck!
Forgiver

Willy1,<p>You got already a good advice, woman's SF is between their ears and our SF is between our leg ... however make sure there is no PA ... my WW cut off SF when she started PA w/ OM, regardless my best efforts.<p>Does the best plan A you can !!!. If your W has always been a giver, learn to be a skillfull taker.<p>-RH-

thanks guys, all of it good. It's all the years of crap to wade through and she needsto make sure the changes are real before lowering her emotional defenses. I haven't begun on her ENs, or her on mine as we are still reading LB and HNHN. Then we shall see if we can "sign on". Will let you all know.

Willy,<p>She's a woman so you can bet that affection is one of her top EN's. You could start there even before you two have finished reading HN/HN and LB. All of the suggestions here have been very good. Start there whether or not she has started to meet your needs yet. One of you is going to have to bite the bullet and go first. If you both wait for the other, you'll both wait forever.

Thanks zorweb...it is actually much more complicated than that. I am the one with affection as #2....I don't think that it is on her top 5 right now...it might have been in the past. She is fighting an extramarital attraction, and as such, there are days when I can get a kiss, hug, or a hand hold, and there are days when even touching her is a bad idea.<p>I am the one who craves affection, and by her own recent admission, she has used the withdrawal of that and SF in order to get what she wants out of me. <p>The short version is that she is fighting endometriosis, ovarian cysts, and hormonal imbalances (which explains the hot/cold routine). Add in a dash of extramarital attraction, the fact that through a deceitful act I was responsible for losing most of her inheritance, and I am soon to be unemployed...and, well, it's been a tough time.<p>She also is "different" in that PA is one of her top ENs...maybe even top..we won't know until we do the questionnaire after we do a few more weeks of reading. I was about 80 to 90 lbs. overweight until this thing got serious last year. In January I got serious. I was at 276. I am presently at 231. My goal is 200. The OM is around 155 and buff. I need help.<p>I only bring up the SF thing because I foresee a situation where I am hitting all her ENs, and only a select few of mine are up for help. Frankly, I am stalling for time on when we have to approach the agreement, cuz we both know she doesn't feel she can meet them yet. so we are taking our time through the books. Also, I think I am fairly certain that two of her top ones are the ones I will have the most difficult time meeting, and they are the two that the OM meets...PA and FS. <p>So.....it ain't as easy as it seems. But I just keep on keeping on. We have made a lot of progress since she last said she didn't want to be married to me anymore (March 13) to where she knows DV is not an answer. She is just skeptical that she can ever be in love with me again, and the thought that she would do the right thing by staying married, but would be stuck in a loveless (for her) marriage, is enough to send her into fits of depression again, and that doesn't help inspire her to meet ENs again.<p>it's a vicious cycle.<p>We have worked in the same building for years, and my next employment is liable to separate us by some distance. I am concerned that with her new position of a few years, she spends so much time at the office (and I suspect on phone with OM who is thankfully a 1000 miles away) that we will have little chance of getting half of the 15 hours MINIMUM that Dr. Harley recommends. In our case, we really need twice that. But when she is "cold", it's like fingernails on the blackboard for her to be with me.<p>So, there it is...have at it...I'm sure your questions will bring more out, this thing is more complicated than one can imagine. I will say one thing, "A Beautiful Mind", a film we both liked, was very uncomfortable for me...it seemed a little too close to home.<p>There is no chance for a medical resolution to this at this time as her deep religious convictions prevent it. They are the same as mine, but I would make an exception in this case. The problem is that the mentally disturbed person never perceives that they are mentally disturbed. I know she understands that a lot of this is hormonal, but it's still tough for her to realize that her thoughts are affected by chemistry.

Willy,<p>Affection is not always expressed in hugs, touches and kisses. This is something many men do not realize. A card, flower, helping her with a chore... those things can be affection too.<p>Right after D-day, I had no intention of staying with my H we’d been married 9 months when I found out that he’d been having affairs with 10 other women the entire time I’d known him. Why on earth would I stay? I was not open to affection from him either. But he found ways to break through my wall of resistance. He plan A’d me like crazy.<p>One of the most affectionate things my H has done for me was shortly after D-day. I was falling apart, working my full time job and single parenting our kids when he traveled. I was a mess. One day, when he was not traveling, I'd called him from work and told him that I was falling apart. I did not know if I could make it through the day.<p>When I got home from work, he met me at the door with a glass of wine. Took by briefcase and walked me upstairs to our bathroom where he'd drawn a bubble bath for me. He told me to take a bath, enjoy the wine and forget about him and the kids. I did just that.<p>And hour later when I went down stairs, he’d cooked dinner and had fed the kids. Then he and I sat down to a quiet dinner alone.
That is affection… different then what people might usually think of.<p>You are right that your wife might not be open to what we normally think of as affection from you… touches, kisses, etc. But thing that are sweet, make her feel better and make her life easier may get through. While her need for affection from you may be low, her need for affection in the over all picture is probably still high up there.. that is why there is an OM in the picture. She needs the affection from somewhere. <p>Give it to her in any way she will accept it.<p>[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: zorweb ]</p>

Please explain the medical restrictions that your religious beliefs impose.

Willy --
Zorweb very wisely posted you the "Walkaway Wife" article. Please read it.<p>You wife has some big walls built up. She's not going to let them down until she's really sure of you. You need to plan A plan A plan A until she knows that this is the real you -- and that you're not making these changes for her. That you're making them for yourself.

thanks guys....<p>Zor...I did what you suggested a few times...do it often in fact...<p>I do all the cooking...did most of it before she said she wanted out...now I do all of it. I have usually done most of cooking and cleaning...now do that all as well. I think she feels that is nothing special since my day is done at four, and she often works late or goes back in for late work (a bad habit considering who she might be talking to on the phone card, or on free cel time)<p>I have done candlelight dinners at least once a month...more than that takes away the specialness. I run a bubble tub for her a coulpla times a week. The danger is in these things becoming routine...<p>She can be warm one day, and cold as ice the next...usually it is more than one day. But then we are back in ice storage. <p>I know what the attraction is with the OM, and right now, at my weight and job, I can't match up favorably. At least he and his S are finally going to counseling.<p>I was plan Aing long before I knew what Plan A was...and we have seen some progress. But the inequity may take some time to resolve...meanwhile, the bank account in her name is hemorraging fast.<p>I am determined to make this work...but I wonder sometimes if it isn't being deliberately sabotaged so that she won't be the one blamed if we split.<p>Zor, I want to be careful about identifying our religion. Let's just say that the most ardent people refuse medical attention of any sort. Please don't try to guess the affiliation as I won't give it, I simply wanted any suggestions of "get her on Hormone Replacement Therapy" to understand that she knows that is a possibility and as far as she is concerned, it is not an option.

Willy1<p>I'm sorry, apparently I did not state my question about the religious restrictions clearly. I don't care to know the denomination of your religion. What I was trying to ask is are the religious restrictions about surgical procedures and/or taking medications. Since your wife has come conditions that surgery is often prescribed for, I was not sure. It sounds like your religion restricts both. The reason I asked is that there are holistic and natural methods for treating many afflictions.<p>For example, you mention menopause and hormonal imbalances. At my age, though menopause has not yet set in for me yet, I find a need for some hormonal replacement. I want to avoid the typical prescripts given these days. They seem a little harsh on the body. Instead I am using some natural remedies, some of which are foods. So far they are working very well.<p>Wild Mexican Yam Root, About 4 years ago I started getting hot flashes. Used drops made from this herb. The hot flashes went away immediately and have never come back.<p>Then about 3 years ago I started to feel 'unstable' emotionally. I started using a cream containing Wild Mexican Yam Root, ........ There is also a tablet continuing this mixture. The results were immediate.<p>One very simple food has been found to be very helpful to women at this time in life. Women in Japan apparently do not experience menopause in the same way American women do. They have none of the same symptoms. It turns out that soy contains large amounts of phido- estrogens. Eating soy products can greatly improve a woman's transition through menopause.<p>I did a quick search on the web for 'hormonal replacement', here is one of the many links that came up http://holisticonline.com/Remedies/hrt/hrt_home.htm . I thought this site
Looked interesting.<p>I don’t' know what your religion’s stance is on natural remedies made of herbs
and vitamins. Nor do know what’s its stance is on simply eating wiser for one’s physical health. So I am writing you in hopes that some of these things that I, and many other women, have found to be health restoring can help your wife. <p>Perhaps those are available to you. It seems that no matter the restrictions soy products could be used, as soy is simply a legume. If you cook all the meals, perhaps you could include some soy in the diet.<p>You may want to check out the book “The Divorce Remedy”. The methods described in the book follow the idea that if what you have been doing does not work, then do something different. Almost anything different will lead to a change. The methods work very well when combined with the MB concepts.
From the rest of what you have written, it sounds like you do many of the things suggested here. You know, Perhaps you are making it too easy for your wife check out? Perhaps she feels that she is not needed as you do everything? I too was doing too much around here. This actually facilitated my H’s affairs. The advice I got from my counselor was to just stop doing everything. I protested that then nothing would get done. Her response was “SO?”. Well I stopped doing it all. And my H and the kids now do a lot more.

Zor, thanks...I will consider that...officially, it might be a problem even for "natural remedies" but I am going to try it.<p>As for DR, I have it. Actually, that is how I confirmed my suspicions that she was having an EA...Michelle has a part in Infidelity where she identifies 6 phrases, that if your spouse says them, she might be wanting out because she has a "special friend" waiting in the wings. I read them and almost fell over...she had recently said 5 out of the 6. Thats when I began to pay attention to phone records, emails, cel phone calls, etc. 3 weeks later, she copped to it.<p>She can't let go of the "friendship" yet, but is working real hard on it. Having dealt with chemical dependencies before, I tried to tell her that it had to be cold turkey...but she isn't there yet. But I think knows it has to end and soon and that it is interfering with our attempts to reconcile.<p>thanks for the web site, will check it out!!

WillyH,<p>I don't think you have explored the Plan A topic enough yet. She has issues in your behavior that are lovebusters. Until you remove the lovebusters and you continue doing things that she cannot give her full enthusiastic support to, you're not in a full Plan A. Not even close. And she obviously does not subscribe to your "hotrod" magazines - or that you are only looking at the cars. More than likely she believes that is the same excuse that someone who subscribes to PlayBoy would say "The articles are well written and I'm only getting the magazine to read the articles."<p>Plan A is about protection - protecting her emotional love bank and making deposits and no withdrawls. How can you say that your marriage has reached the state that is has while you were doing a true Plan A???<p>*******************
Until one is real with themselves, they will not find the truth of the matter.

Willy,<p>Many times when a person is withdrawing from an affair they go through a difficult withdrawal. Dr. Harley suggests that a person might want to take antidepressants during this time to help. Obviously this is not an option for your wife. <p>But there are natural approaches to this too. One is walking. Perhaps, if you and your wife don’t already do this, you could go for a long daily walk. This would do wonders. Then there are things like St. Johns' Wart, that I understand work as well as many of the prescription antidepressants without the side affects. There are also foods that are more likely to help with increasing serotonin levels in the brain.<p>I copied the following from “Dr. Atkins’ New Diet Revolution”. Though he’s an MD, leans very strongly towards handling things naturally, with out prescription drugs when possible. I remembered reading this a while back.. so I copied it for you just in case it can help.<p>-------------------------------------------------
“Serotonin drugs are effective because this natural neurotransmitter helps the brain function, relieves depression and relaxes the mind. But drugs work by blocking the body’s normal ability to destroy serotonin once it has been created. Blocking agents block other normal chemical functions as well, resulting in such unwanted side effects as diminished sex drive and performance, dry mouth and constipation, to say nothing of slow metabolism, which, of course, can stall weight loss.<p>The safe way to build up the serotonin level is to enable the body to manufacture its own serotonin by taking the immediate precursor to serotonin. This natural substance does not block a reaction, but simply enables a reaction to take place. The precursor to serotonin is a chemical called tryptophan; its immediate precursor is 5-hydroxy tryptophan, a popular vitanutrient available in health food stores. <p>Other natural substances for depression include N-acetyl tyrosine, S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe), St. John’s Wort, acetyl L-carnitine, phosphatidyl serine and most of the B complex vitamins. These supplements relieve anxiety, as do inositol, GABE (gama amino butyric acid), kava kava and valerian.”

P.S.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The short version is that she is fighting endometriosis, ovarian cysts, and hormonal imbalances (which explains the hot/cold routine<hr></blockquote>
You demanding sex during endometriosis is cruel and unusual punishment - you must address this issue with a marriage counselor if you lack the ability to understand the physiological consequences of what endometriosis does to a woman during intercourse. If you can't imagine your penis on fire, cramping, and your abdomen twisted in knots to the point where every thrust you make is like someone sticking a knife in your lower abdomen, you lack the empathy or ability to understand that SF is not an option in the way most men want that need met. <p>I recommend a competent marriage counselor right away so that the two of you can learn to communicate!

most of the time, she is not uncomfortable during sex....I have let her be the initiator for years now...and often have stopped to ask her if she is sure I am not hurting her. <p>We DO have a MC, and what pain there was, during IC, was from my weight on her belly...so we would reverse positions. No, frankly, I have been EXTREMELY conscious of any discomfort to the point when she would suggest relations, and I would ask if she were ok and my concern for any pain, where she would get irritated and tell me that I had put her out of the mood with my stupid questions. NO, the problem isn't painful IC, it's the damn depression, mood swings, night sweats that force her to switch in one night from flannel nightie to bare naked (she has NEVER liked sleeping in the nude in 26 years of marriage), waking up at all hours...insomnia...you name it. But the endo has mainly affected her ovaries, uterus, and bowels during some bowel movements...<p>She assures me, and I am constantly sensitive to this, that it hasn't made IC painful. I have also lost 45 lbs in 4 months trying to help with the "weight on her" situation.<p>I appreciate your concern...it is the same I have had since the symptoms first showed up 3 years ago. The problem has been manifested more mentally than physically...and when we have IC, she is obviously enjoying it. It's the mental aspect of saying several days later that "it was a mistake...I'm not ready to feel that way about you yet"...and yet, she was the one that said, "Let's make love." This is a denial of reality and part of the whole mental confusion she is manifesting that has made her moods and thinking a kind of Jekyll/Hyde thing for the past year.<p>But keep asking me hard questions....I am willing to listen to the possibilities.

kaylaandy....<p>I appreciate all of your comments...I really do...but I think you and I are not communicating either. I don't understand the hot rod magazines/Playboy comments. <p>Perhaps I am not making myself clear. You are right about one thing, I am not fully in Plan A, but that is because she is not ready to fully commit to Dr. Harley's plan. I have been working on LBs and ENs for months now, and she is finally interested in his basic concepts...but not ready...she wants to go slow. That is fine. I am trying to address the LB that I think I might have inflicted her with, and in my solo sessions, the MC has been very helpful.

I'm sorry, I hit the mouse to post before I was done. I have been working hard to meet her ENs, but she doesn't want to fill out the questionnaire yet, and so I am having to guess at her top ones based on who she is having the EA with. Unfortunately, they are the toughest to do quickly...financial support, and physical attractiveness. As I said, I have lost 45 pounds in 4 months...with 30 to go in my goal. She has noticed and made nice comments...but it's a tough competition. As for the FS, I have served notice on my old job and have been hot on the trail for an improvement...at my age, it hasn't been easy. But I am determined. <p>I am always there for conversation, but after what I did, she doesn't trust me like she used to, so other friends and the OM get most of the most intense conversations. Not much I can do there.<p>I realize that this is going to take time, and I am intensely interested in doing everything I can to work it out. The only reason I posted this thread is that I sense that one of the reasons she wants to go slow is because my numbers 1 and 2 are big problems with the way she feels right now. I am more than willing to let things be unbalanced for a while, but I don't want to frustrate the Giver so much that all that is left is the Taker. She knows that this is part of what happened to her...and she is saddened over it, but can't fight the feelings. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>so...she is almost a cautionary tale, by her own admission. So I was simply asking if anyone else had run into this roadblock...and how did they overcome it? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks