Forgive Wkbk #5/Equality/ Refuse to be inferior/Resist desire to be superior.

Do you know someone who has an insatiable need to be in the superior position. Is it your partner? Is it you?This is step #5 in The Choosing to Forgive Workbook by Les Carter & Frank Minirth that wasstubborn & I were both reading and decided to discuss. Everyone is welcome. This chapter could be related to the last step about bounderies. I think in some ways this is related because if this is a problem, it makes bounderies more difficult.Thankfully in my own married life, this is not a problem. So maybe I'll have a better perspective than I did in the last step where I struggle.Sooo...you may be affected by the lack of equality if..* I get rebuttals when I attempt to discuss problems or concerns.* Others try to motivate me with guilt.* Many times others will not accept my feelings as legitimate.* Too often I feel like I'm the only one being flexible or cooperative.* People do not like when I choose my own way.* Key people in my life seem incapable of change.* The one who wronged me has a haughty spirit.* I am amazed at how insensitive others can be.* I've struggled with people who disregard truth or twist facts to suit their case. * People who have let me down portray themselves as upright and fair.* People who have harmed me are known for being critical.* The wrongdoers in my life seem to huger for power and control.If you checked six or more you may be caught in a game of one-upmanship. If you are trying to forgive, it may be more difficult if you are reminded of your lowly status in the eyes of the wrongdoer.Since this is a Christian book, the main idea is we all have equal worth in God's eyes...so we can remember that when people try to make us feel inferior, but also remember that and not elevate our own worth by seeing ourselves or trying to show others we are superior.Some of us may need to go back to our childhood and examine what we were taught, because sadly some of these lessons were taught to us by trouble parents in our childhood and are perpetuated in our adult lives.Even when we spot the superiortity game, you may be only in control of your own response to it. Communication in hopes of changing the "superior" minded person are not likely to produce the results you want. They may never change, but we can.During early development there are two ways general ways in which people respond to feelings of inferiority:1. They take or believe the inferior position. 2. They try to find ways to feel superior.You may have taken the inferior position if you: *Are too easily motivated by guilt and duty. *You feel you have to explain yourself thouroughly *You work too hard to justify yourself. *Your feeling of stability lasts as long as you are approved by others *You apologize for things that don't require an apology. *You adjust your behavior based on the possible judgments you might receive. *You use the word CAN'T frequently *You somehow let people dominate or manipulate you. *You try to hard to please peopleYou may switch at times to the superior position or you may see the following in the person trying to make him/herself superior.*You cling to judgmental thoughts and feelings. *Your communication is an effort to outargue or persuade. *You punish people with silence or withdrawal. *You hold on to grudges, not letting go of pain or hurt that may have originally been legit. *You prove yourself by being an overachiever. *You won't accept any input about how you may be in error. *You can tear to shreds another person's reasoning. *You develop patterns of stubbornness or hardheadedness.Attempting the superior position will hinder forgiveness, too.So it is possible to get caught in the cycle of feeling inferior, then striving to be superior by elevating yourself above your wrongdoer, and getting nowhere in the forgiveness department. Superiority is false compensation for feelings of inferiority.The first step is considering that you are not inferior or superior to anyone. God's plan is for equality. We are different in skills and gifts, we are all equally valued by God and we all equally in need of God's mercy and it follows we should value each other as equal in worth.Forgiveness can only occur as you do not repay evil with evil.Four key insights are set out to consider 1. Understand your worth is from God, not humans. 2. Sidestep invitations for False Guilt. 3. Learn to detach from others' phychological games. 4. Learn to comunicate as an equal, even when others won't.1. Understand your worth... When our wrongdoer makes us feel inferior, it is hard to move forward in forgiveness. God sees us as precious, the words and actions of others do not change how God feels about us. Humans can deter us from seeing that, but they cannot change the truth. So remember this when others are trying to make you feel inferior.2. Sidestep False Guilt. When you or accept blame for someone else's wrong, you may have simmering anger or misplaced guilt and/or desire for revenge...all inhibiting forgiveness. Even if you can pinpoint mistakes you made in association with another's wrongdoing, let God forgive you and move forward. If you let go of guilt that was never yours in the first place, you are more free to forgive.3. Practice Delicate Detachment. (Here is that detachment issue than confused us in bounderies in the context of marriage, but here it goes.) When you remain in the inferiority-superiority struggle, you remain attatched. When the wrongdoer persists in rejection or is not fully repentant, this attatchment results in emotional turbulence. When a person persists in holding themselves superior, resist temptation to respond in kind. (Of course it would be challenging to try to achieve intamacy in marriage when this is the situation, therein lies the confusion.)4. Communicate as an equal. Sidestep invitations for agumentative exchanges. Think of examples of how you can respond that would indicate your view of yourself as an equal, not a subordinate. Remember that others' immaturity does not mandate your misery. In the best case you will be able to work with the other in making positive adjustments, but refuse to play psychological games that have only losers.So there it is...now lets discuss and debate...as equals of course! ------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Hmmmmm... Very Interesting ! Okay, I admit my mind is mush this week after a turbulent last weekend - but.... here goes.I can say I am in an unequal relationship with my husband.... do I feel superior or inferior - I think he feels superior, but I don't feel superior or inferior..... I think he's in his own little game that I don't want to play.. And it seems that if I don't play the game I don't get positive interaction - just negative - no connectiveness....Do you understand where I'm coming from? I may need extra help here, remember I'm Mrs. Mush4Brains this week.

Thank you FHL!I think this is a very important chapter for all of us. it not only helps us to understand how we feel but how our spouse feels as well.I think that in my case, my H does feel inferior because he recognizes the wrongs that he has done. He is devastated at the loss of his integrity. His reaction however is to justify in order to feel less inferior. So I see it as my job to help him through this. His justifications may hurt me but if I understand the reasoning behind them, we may get through the.In my own case I need to stop apologizing for the things that are not my fault. My H tells me this constantly. so the whole equality thing can get very complicated if both partners are feeling inferior but reacting differently.We need to both look at each other as equals if we can and become partners. My main goal in this marriage!

Trustntruth, I thought a lot about you while relating this chapter. I think you got it right, and I am glad to hear you see it for what it is and are not tempted to play.Your H sounds like he can be nice, even romantic and touching when all is going well in his world, but can shut it off like a faucet when things do not go according to his own plan.Is there anything in either of your backrounds that perpetuate this? Is your H's superiority based on conpensation for inferiority or did people in his life or his own abilities make him feel so "special" that he is entitiled to his special status in his own mind?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

wasstubborn, You are right about this being complicated. Both partners can engage in this. Both can flip flop. Both are affected by their own pasts and the what feelings of inferiority/superiority they bring with them into the marriage. It probibly has an effect on who we choose as our partners, and not necessarily in a positive way.So why do you think you take on blame or apologize for unnecessary things?Although I really am not affected much by this, my own tendancy is to take on someone else's problems because maybe I think I am better equipted to handle them. I don't think I feel superior. I was taught to live in joyful service to one another even if it meant putting myself last. On the other hand I grew up an only child in a loving stable family with extended family and many friends always making me feel loved and special. Maybe that was the perfect balance.I do think you have defined things, but do you think you are trying too hard in managing your H's recovery? Maybe you have some "downs" because you feel accountable but have no real control for your H's thoughts, feelings and actions?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

H background - He grew up in a very poor family, with uneducated and alcoholic parents. His dad was/is an infidel that drove a truck and would be gone for a month at a time. Mom didn't have much money to feed 7 kids - and many times they would catch pigeons to eat, and eat plum soup for days on end, because dad was so selfish. Mom would iron for neighbors to buy food or pay the rent. FIL abused MIL, although my husband doesn't remember - but all his sisters remember.My husband had an imaginary world in which he lived - to overcome, imo. He always used to say to everyone as a child that when he grew up he was going to have a 50 Thousand dollar house and a blue corvettte. My husband has been a saver, planner and hard worker. He has been successful, unsuccessful and in between. He cannot stand to not have his hair not cut, refuses to look less than a cut above - and is very arrogant.I can see where his inferior feelings have motivated him to behave in a superior mode.I am an Adult child of an alcoholic, with a sheltered background. My parents hid their alcoholic lifestyle from my sister and I, and often abandoned and left us neglected. I don't feel inferior or superior, I am happy with the person I turned out to be - and happy with who my sister is too. I think my older kids (25,22, and 19 going on 20) are the most terrific kids - with good morals and good heads. I think I have been an overcomer, not just a survivor. My husband on the other hand, has been a survivor.

When I read this, I know by the grace of God alone, I have lead a blessed and almost charmed life.Trustntruth, what made the difference in you? Did your H's father abuse him? Did his sisters and Mom give him special treatment because he was the male, or youngest that may have fed the warped superiority thing?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

It doesn't seem that they treat him any more special, at least in current times. But in retrospect, there have been comments by his sisters that MIL thinks the boys are perfect. And, some comment she made a month or so ago was gender preference to the "boys", and I had to counteract that comment to my 6 year old son - that girls are just as special and just as important as boys.So, maybe because he was a boy he was put on a pedestal? I never thought about this before. Coming from a family with only 2 girls - I guess I never realized this could be so profound in other families. What probably helped me, is going to a Christian school. I knew instinctively that my mom and dad's lifestyle was wrong, and I was ashamed of that for many years. But, I think I overcame because I love them regardless, and have chose to accept and be content in my relationship with my parents. I guess I even understood it, and decided to love them just the way they were. I knew there were many good things about my parents and our life, and appreciated this very much. I also decided that I didn't want that lifestyle for myself or my children, so I refused to condone it by participating with my parents when I became an adult. I guess I took the role of maybe the morality leader in my family, and I think my faith in God gave me hope that this someday would change and end in our family. My parents quit drinking maybe 15 years ago, so I guess that helped me remain hopeful and it hasn't creeped up in me or my children - so maybe that was the end of the line for the alcoholic lifestyle. I guess I just always believed in myself, and had a faith and hope that kept me persevering and positive. My husband hasn't had that opportunity.

FHL My constant apologizing comes from childhood. Definitely. My older brother had a serious eye injury when we were young. My mother naturally gave him more attention. He had a very bad temper and it seemed that when he lost his temper it was always my fault. I was supposed to be perfect so as not to upset him. This was my mother's reaction to her guilt over his accident. I played right along. I was only 6 years old when it happened and didn't know better. Not blaming my parents, just recognizing how things developed. So now I need to work on it. Yes I do concentrate too much on my H's recovery. I'm very good at telling others to take care of themselves but not very good at practicing what I preach. Part of my past again? Caring more for others?

Did FIL abuse H? Emotionally. FIL did molest all of his sister's (H's aunts -FIL was the oldest.) I do know of one of my H sister's that he molested. The MIL abused his sisters. I don't know much about my husband's childhood, odviously - from him. He can't remember. His sisters are my source of information. My husband lived in a fantasy world, totally self absorbed - maybe to insulate himself from the pain of his family's problems.He has regressed terribly in the last 3 years that he has lived around them, also. Maybe comforted in pain? Maybe an unconscious desire to truly overcome - by choosing to live so close to them? It hurts him very much that his family is jealous of him. He tries to be so simple, but he is so complex.

thanks fhl!!! This is a great chapter, and one I had to print off for later tonight. H is gone, so I may have time to concentrate? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Maybe I am being critical, but I see some of this behavior on this forum!! Yes, I will go back and read the cures for criticism, I promise! Not sure yet where it fits into my marriage and family, but will report back. Thanks again, cl

OK...I just skrewed up submitting my response. Try again.Trustntruth. So could it be that your H was given the message that boys are preferred, but needs approval, especially from woman who gave him the only approval he experienced in childhood, yet he sees women as somehow OK to control or abuse because of the mixed message he recieved? He did not see dad respecting women or his mom respecting women. Did he change drastically since you were married, or did you think you could help him? Did his strong personality and success attract you because of your own past?WS...I know the feeling of trying to be perfect, but didn't think of it in this context. I was always trying to be the perfect daughter, because I have no actual proof of this, but I think I suspected, that my parents just wouldn't tolerate a major disappointment. I was expected to be a joy and never a disappointment. So maybe I took this into my marriage with me. Maybe I expect my H to see me in this way as well and perform accordingly whether it is true or not. However, I know my H values self sufficiency and efficiency, and my best areas are mental and emotional, so I think I feel inferior in some areas and may actually sabbotage my own efforts to improve domestically or mechanically because of fear of being a disappointment. So if I move slowly, but never quite achieve, I can point to my small successes and pride myself in trying, not risking disappointment if I go all out and fail.Hmm...I'm nuttier than I thought.WS...since you can see these things, what can you do to short circuit this habit in your own brain?You know we think you are wonderful and Wonder Woman just because you are you. How can you believe that and let other's reactions to you be their's to deal with instead of your problem?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So could it be that your H was given the message that boys are preferred, but needs approval, especially from woman who gave him the only approval he experienced in childhood, yet he sees women as somehow OK to control or abuse because of the mixed message he recieved? He did not see dad respecting women or his mom respecting women.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think we got it!! No wonder he's so complex. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Did he change drastically since you were married,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. He was Mr. Wonderful, he was so truthful, so honest, and so protective. He shared my values and goals, and was spiritual. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>or did you think you could help him? Did his strong personality and success attract you because of your own past?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I was impressed with his ambition, his high goals, his "can do" personality, and his commitment to fidelity after his spiritual awakening. I never saw a controlling side to him. We had not had any disagreements, we almost read each other's minds. It was a connection that I longed for, and I truly respected and admired him. He didn't drink, he didn't appear materialistic, just seemed like a nice guy. Married him right away.... (whoops!)Could it be that because of my past I was more attracted to him? I would say so. He appeared to be just what I wanted in a man.I didn't see a strong personality - in that he was dominating. He seemed so different. I realize now that this is part of the charm that an abusive person develops - and boy did I fall for it. I was in a lot of conflict with my x husband at that time (just finished a custody case that lasted 3 years and $20K in debt) So, probably my husband's performance seemed an answer to all my problems. My 2nd chance at marriage and family. (whoops.)Did I think I could help him? Yes - I guess my need to "fix" - I knew I could help him in his career, and I put a lot of energy into his business, and at helping him parent. His first emotional outburst was when his daughter (diabetic) missed the bus and I let her walk to school. I was accused of wanting her "dead".His first physical abuse was in our office, when he got angry and threw liquid paper at me. I knew what I had married with the first emotional outburst incident - and he begged me to stay with him afterwards - and I did. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 15, 1999).]

FHL I'm definitely going to have to review this thread and that chapter. What can I do to short circuit this? Good question? I can analyze everything but I can't fix it. Remedial again!!!! I've been lying down all day as H ordered since I overdid it yesterday. Now I had better reread the chapter. When I read it the first time I spent most of my time trying to figure out how to help him. Hmmmm is that a sign? That was the first thing I thought of after discovery too. So I am just way too much of a caregiver. How does that relate to equality. Maybe I need to look at H as equal and able to take care of himself. But what if he doesn't act that way? I'm getting more confused!

WS - FHLOkay I guess it is the same for me... I can analyze to death, but not fix it. Is that it? I do not get caught up in inferior/superior games, and bow out? Let them be equally responsible for their share of the interaction - they fix themselves? And we just work on ourselves?

tnt I think that's the answer. We need to work on ourselves and stop trying to fix everything else. I think there is a part on delicate detachment that I must go reread. We can really only do something about ourselves. We can encourage the spouse but we need to concentrate on what we can realistically do for ourselves in order to perceive each other as equals. Now we need to figure out hos to do that. Are we getting back to my old favorite ACCEPTANCE?

OH MY GOD - Another one that's totally me!!!!!! That's it ------Just shoot me now!!!Not only H but (especially now) so many people just dismiss what I say. Mostly cuz they think I'm daffy for doing all this stuff - they don't get that I am learning and growing!!!No wonder why I can't get the boundaries - I don't count so why do I need boundaries!!!!!Oh - this is not good.........

Hello ladies and gents, First-Sheba, if we were going to shoot you we would have done it a long time ago girl!! Here we have witnessed, first-hand, the great strides you have made and you want what?! Sorry, we want to see more sheba, we want to watch you grow!! This is interesting 2. Sidestep False Guilt. When you or accept blame for someone else's wrong, you may have simmering anger or misplaced guilt and/or desire for revenge...all inhibiting forgiveness. Even if you can pinpoint mistakes you made in association with another's wrongdoing, let God forgive you and move forward. If you let go of guilt that was never yours in the first place, you are more free to forgive. Help me with this please!! I can understand how misplaced guilt inhibits forgiveness, but can not quite put this into practice.

Trustntruth...if his childhood is dictating his behavior then he needs your adoration but he doesn't women as equals to respect. No wonder he sees so much as an attack. Yes, I think you need to work on your responses and take care of yourself and your son.WS...I'm proud of your H for sending you to bed. That's a good sign. My personal opinion is over the years you probibly saved him many times from consequences from his own actions. It may be difficult to let him be responsible for his own actions, but after a few failures, he may step up to the plate and surprise you.Sheba...breath into a bag...I think you are hyperventalating. You are growing and learning...and the people who think you are daffy do not have your depth.cl...I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you take on some of the guilt for your H and that is bogging you down? Please clarify.And for me. I can analyze too, but fix? I'm trying, but it gets so personal, doesn't it?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

hi all, FHL, I am not sure if I take on the guilt or not...just trying to figure out if I might be doing that and it inhibits my forgiveness process. I like to think I do not-after all waht sort of strong self-assured woman takes on this misplaced guilt! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But I might just be doing a bit of that. For instance H's illness: he was quite ill, and went to many docs since no one seemed to be able to diagnose. Lots of different drugs, tests, etc., with nothing working. Of course I felt guilt since I should have seen it sooner and provided the proper diagnosis and treatment. May have saved some permanent scarring and decreased need for surgery he faces next month. So in a strange sense I have accepted some of the responsibility for extending his physical pain, therefore accepting some of the guilt associates with the illness and his infidelity? Oh boy....I guess I never thought of this before. Makes my stomach sort of in a knot-sort of feels weak and vulnerable. I think I do need to step away from this guilt. It is not mine-it does not belong to me at all! WS, I have to agree with fhl that you have rescued your h for many yrs, allowing him to be less than responsible. This is not to say there is any blame. I think that women have a real tendency to do this from out primal families and societal expectations. It is refreshing to hear that he is coming around. Every little thing should be noticed, and we should keep being thankful for all those niceties in life. He showed great care and consideration where there had previously been little!! He is not a total dufus after all?! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Ladies My H has his moments. He called three times yesterday to see if I was lying down.This is something we are working with. Since I haven't been feeling great he hasn't given much attention. Miscommunication. He thought it would be better to leave me alone if I was resting. I told him I would rather he wake me up every half hour to check on me because it makes me feel cared for. Now the guilt thing. I feel GUILTY if I lay down and take care of myself. How misplaced is that? I have always been that way. I think I should be constantly doing. How is H supposed to deal with that? And yes I rescue him way too much. So it really is me that I have to work on.

WS, what is this delicate detachment? I feel like if I act like a piece of furniture, then my husband's A-OK.... (No opinion, and a Stepford Wife...)FHL - So how do you "bow out", not fix, probably not analyze, but not become indifferent, and not build resentment? I'm generally good about letting other people's chips fall where they may, but usually don't give up hope that they will learn from their mistakes, or that things will eventually turn out ok. So, in that respect - I think I do this step in the forgiveness workbook pretty well. But, how do you "in a marriage" successfully detach - but in love? If anyone was able to do that, I thought it was me. But I find myself getting simply frustrated in this situation. My 6 year old this morning said on the way to school (He was angry because I made him wear a pair of pants that didn't bag out or droop down 4" beyond his shoes)..."Mom, you are always causing problems in our family. You have a mental problem." Where did he hear that before? From Mr. Mush4Brains? Because he overhears his dad complaining that he can't stay late at work without mom accusing dad of having an affair. He hears his dad saying he never had an affair, and mom has a mental problem. Appropriate? Overstepping his boundaries just slightly?I'm getting so confused, I really don't know which way is out or up or down!WS, I think I'd really like to hear more about "delicate detachment"...!!!What is step 6?

I think that I've got a problem here... Im going to print this out... I see alot of questions that fit me toooo well...

Maybe a first step..the forgiveness workbook.What I've realized in reading what you posted, FHL a pretty valuable lesson to me. H is superior in all aspects (acting out) I am countering that on a defensive superior action, because of insecurity (?)I have problems liking others because of my thinking that I will ultimately be hurt by them, non trusting with most people. I perceive others as being out for their own desires, most times.Things to think about: Regaining a non-judgemental attitude, and giving people (including H) the benefit of the doubt, before issuing accusations. Realizing the paranoia regarding others ill intentions are not always what I perceive (reality).This is a really outstanding thread. When I read what I have written, it's helped me gain a little clarity in my own situation![This message has been edited by Madelyn (edited September 16, 1999).]

Hi all, My computer crashed big time. Only have a moment here at work. Keep up the great work...I think we are all learning a lot here. Wish I had more answers about delicate detatchment.Think cl has it down pretty well.I will try to repair computer and be back with you asap.WS...keep resting.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi all -I have been a bad girl and have not done my homework the past few days!!!I will go through everything here and promise to say something about it by tomorrow.......Looks like you are doing OK with it!!Sheba

I missed some of this thread when my computer crashed. What a mess. Now that we have had the weekend to think about this, anything to add?Trustntruth, how was your weekend? Did you see any of this thread being acted out? Don't let your H or anyone make you feel inferior. God does not and we see you are beautiful.WS...what about you? I think your marriage is complex and you are really defining your issues. If you and your H can short circuit some old patterns of behavior and replace them with new patterns that are healthier in your particular relationship, you will be on the road to lasting recovery.cl...wow what great insight, and you are right, you have to let that go. Isn't it great when you realize something and can act on it? You feel empowered, where once you felt weak and vunerable.Sheba...where are you? Check back in.used2Bcozy...any insights after you thought about all of this?Madelyn...glad you found this thread thought provoking. It is easy to get on the downward spiral of responsing to another's attitude of superiority with a negative attitude of our own. You might be interested in the next lesson which is about being judgemental.So, are we finished here or should we knock this around a bit more? ------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Uggghhhh!!!I am really having a hard time right now. I feel like I am learning so much, and leaving my husband behind in the dust....I realize the only person I can change is ME. How do we take the "head" knowledge, and move it into the heart without resentment....I guess, all this realization is harder for me to deal with, knowing my husband is "clueless" and just doesn't get it.He made a comment this weekend - "Maybe we are just going through the 10 - 12 year phase"... We both ended our previous marriages between 10 - 13 years. I told him, you know, there are some things that we could be doing that we aren't. I said, "We could be using the Policy of Joint Agreement" - and the "honesty policy"... The Harley methods have been proven to work, but we aren't using them.He just looked at me like he was totally clueless, and also like I was nuts, and he could care less. I lovebusted yesterday. His family drove by our house while we were outside hanging soffit material, etc. I mean, they drove by probably 15 times throughout the weekend. He said - "It's pretty sad, my family can't even stop in the street and say hi to me anymore. If I wasn't married to you, I'd have more of a relationship with my family".You know what? I have built so many walls, to insulate myself from his "superior" attitude, that it doesn't hurt, and doesn't even surprise me. I just said, "Too bad you are married to me. Maybe if you just got a divorce you could have your family."Wrong response? Heh I guess so. I guess I was elevating myself to the superior position, and putting him in the inferior position. I knew it while I did it, and thought "What the heck. I don't think my comments mean too much anyways."

HI tnt, Good girl!! YOu refused to accept his guilt. Besides, the family could have stopped the car and come over to you tow as you worked on the house. They made the choice to drive by and do nothing. What is so hard to understand about that? Or is he used to you fixing everyting up all the time with the family members? I think you did a great job!! How did the soffits turn out? Sun eve I spent about 2 hrs following H around the house-he was screwing in the fascia boards and I was reading HN/HN to him. Yeah it is pitiful....is this how we get the spouses to read the Harley material. YES, in this house it is! He did pay attention and complete the emotinal needs questionairre that he had previously screwed up! Wow, it was an eye opener for me. Number one was openess and honesty (hello?), 2 was admiration, three was affection, 4 was converstaion 5 was sex. Hmmm, we don't match anywhere!! But that was the Harley lesson for the day....and I guess you could say he was a captive audience while up on the ladder!

Trustntruth...it is kind of sad to feel like you are growing and learning and your partner has no interest.Actually my H has come a long way. But he has little use for techniques or reading. He wants to do everything himself. I have yet to figure out exactly what influences him, but since we were both raised in a conservative culture, I think he knows what is "right" from the messages we were raised with and with the examples our family have set for us for generations. He also respects his dad a great deal and I see him becoming more like him as he gets older.I also think ways I have changed have influenced him. I am less sensitive and more willing to resolve conflict. I am less likely to misinterpret or if I do, I come back for clarification and resolution. So although I have always been a goody two shoes plan Aer, I am probibly a more rational, reasonable and predictable wife and maybe that what he is responding to. I don't know. I really don't.Your H only has you for a good example and he seems to be bent on making you the scapegoat when you are probibly the best thing that ever happened to him. Maybe his superiority thing is a result of feeling inferior to all the love you have shown?You might be right in that when you are a Stepford Wife everything is fine. Do you think he fears your individuality and strength or he needs to feel control or he is so unhappy with his own life he does not have the capacity to sustain a real relationship right now?I feel for you, trustntruth. As always, still praying for you.And exactly how could he have a better relationship with his family without you? That's nuts given how disfunctional it was before he even knew you. ------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Soffits are getting there - starting to look good. We have added a 30 x 40 attached garage, with attic bedrooms above, a foyer and putting in a 5x9 nook area into the kitchen. Big job. Been at it 2 years now. I've been the gopher every weekend we are home! I like doing this stuff, and so does my husband. He showed me how to use the saw this weekend. I still have all my fingers. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

(My dad lost 3 of his on the left hand last Christmas... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)Woke up to cold water this morning, one of the heating elements has been out of the electric hot water heater. You can get 2 moderate showers out of it in the morning. So we have a rule that children take their showers at night, we get ours in the morning. I guess the rules don't apply on Mondays?.....or don't apply as long as my husband is not 3rd.....Husband called about an hour ago. How is your day going? I waited to comment, because all I could think about is the COLD water and his attitude! I said, well it is pretty out right now. I think today will be pretty. He said, I asked how your day is going.. I said, well - I had a cold water this morning - and I guess I don't want to talk to you right now. I said "goodbye, it's just better if we don't talk."My husband would throw something at me from on top of the ladder (and it wouldn't be tomatoes!) if I started reading anything about "self help for marriages..." The solution to him is for me to lose my voice, paralyze my face, and spread my legs....!!!Or to go through a programming change to become a Stepford wife!Am I feeling sorry for myself, on my pity pot, or what????

I'm with TNT I'm learning so much I think my head is going to burst. Problem is the STAMINA. I get the game plan but can't carry it through. H is so laid back sometimes we need to check and see if he's breathing. Try to get some motivation from him? TNT you are starting to sound like me. That's something I might have said. cl Does your H really listen to you when you read? WOW FHL Lecture me lecture me. You are so calm, peaceful and together. Could you send some of that telepathically?

cl...I do a lot of communicating with my H as he uses the facilities (I stand my distance) or is in the shower. These are the only time is in one place. In bed if he is tired, it's so counterproductive to try to communicate anything. He's not very nice when he's tired. I think he has a sleeping disorder.Many times I also follow H around, but I can not think and walk at same time, or so it seems...so hats off to you!I need to really have H fill out the emotional needs. I would predict they would be #1 recreational companionship #2 domestic support #3 the family one #4 sex? Not sure. I am sure they wouldn't match with mine. Our personalities on the Meyer-Briggs profile were completely different except we are both intraverted. Gee I wish I could spell. On the up side we compliment each other because there is not much overlap. We also share the same basic beliefs and values spiritually and politically. He even trusts me to research the issues and write down everything he should vote for. Personally I wouldn't let anyone do that.cl...are your personalities different, too?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

WS...yes I am calm, peaceful and together (at least mentally) in real life, everyone says that, but it comes at a price.I'm flexible and go with the flow, but I am also unfocused and sometimes undisaplined. I procastinate and have a hard time organizing or even making lists to get organized.I am peaceful, but sometimes I am so good at avoiding conflict, I spin things in my own mind to look at the bright side so as not to deal with issues that may really need dealing with. The exception is when someone crosses my values.I have a clear mind and can clarify problems and am often brought in personally and professionally to do just that, but my own schedule is out of control. I have a terrible time with anything mechanical. I have to repeat righty tighty lefty loosy to remember what way to turn things. My favorite part of my new mini van is that the gas cap is attatched so I no longer lose it. I am great in a crisis, but don't deal well with everyday chaos...I'm like a deer stuck in the headlights.So really, WS...I don't think you really want to be like me...just fine tune yourself a bit.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Thanks [This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 20, 1999).]

I guess it would be too painful for my husband to admit that his family was dysfunctional before I married him. He knew how to live in that mode and was comfortable with it. I know he has grown, seen life from a different perspective, so to speak, and didn't live around them for many years. They recognize something different in my husband, and seem jealous over it. My husband has goals, higher expectations and some sort of a value system that does not match his family's. So, he really does not "fit in" the family mold as well as everybody else does..... White sheep of the family? And maybe this is painful, that he only gets the pats on the back from his family when he has trouble with me. I know they aren't that smart to figure out that they are employing "behavior modification" techniques here, but that is exactly what they are doing! And maybe for my husband it is much easier to blame me for all his woes, than to really take a look at life. I think my husbands emotional needs are (and I can't figure out what order they would fall into but here's a try...) Sex, domestic support, recreational companionship, and financial support.I wonder how "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" game plan would go over with this piece of work husband!!!!nah, I'd rather be single!

You are right that your H doesn't want introspection, right now.From everything your H alledgedly has done outside and inside the marriage, if he still has higher morals and values than his family says a lot.It doesn't help you when they are trying to drag him down. When he compares himself to them, it may make him feel good. When he looks at your higher standards, that makes him feel bad. So he may be drawn to his family to feel good or superior, but at the same time have some contempt or need distance from them...yet although he may want to be living the standards you have, he knows he is not so he is doing his best to invalidate them to insulate himself.How about that for pycho babble?------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Perfect.I'm going to prepare about 30 sheets of paper and print this thread off.... VERY INSIGHTFUL!Okay, so now what? Tranquilizers? Prozac? Zoloft? Vacation? A Bullet?

Don't even joke about that, Trustntruth.What's next? Maybe meds would be good, I never tried them since H thinks I'm already on drugs because I drink coffee.My humble opinion is that you need to know what you want and what you need, not out of fear, but out of stength and love. Then I think you really need to know what it going on with your H...is there OW or are there other problems, or is it all pressures with his daughters and personal issues?If you don't really know what you are dealing with, it is hard to even know how to chart your own course, let alone help him.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

hello ladies, real quick... the trick is to make the spouse a captive audience. Up on the ladder was good. The shower is good too! I use that one a lot. Perhaps the toilet area? I also read to him in the car frequently-when he doesnot want to listen, he asks me to drive. I still am just so surprised at his answers-I assumed differently. Yes, he is very different from me, but that is okay. What I have been mulling on all morning is how he could choose honesty as his first emotional need?! We will discuss it tonight. And conversation? That is way down on my list, but I believe that is because he is gone so much. Need to work today! cl

FHL What's the next chapter? Can't find my book.

yeah, right wasstubborn. You lost the book...and I was going to have you lead the next one. Convenient...or is losing the book a deeper message on how you feel about forgiveness now. Hmmm.The next chapter is about Refraining from Judgements. I read ahead and it is another toughy. Don't think I'll have time tomorrow, but maybe Wednesday if you can't find the book. Maybe I can squeeze it in in the morning...Lost the book...now that's not the image I have of you. I should be the one losing the book.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL You know what a nuthouse this has been the last week. Hockey, soccer, football, building, stray cats, sick dog....... And I'm reading two books at once. Soooooo let's say I misplaced it. I will find it. I promise. I think the judgements one has something to do with letting go of expectations too doesn't it? I promise I will find it but I want to know if cl has the book yet. She could be the leader. I'm a much better follower. So much to learn.

OK...20hr week part time job. Crashed computer with over 10 hours of talk time to techies...Bball for two, soccer for two, church work and a H with a new job he is putting 12 hour days in through Feb. probibly.....and a three year old. Hah!Plus I am domestically challenged.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

But I will bet any money that you are wayyyyyy more organized than I am!!!!!! That is where I am challenged.

I doubt it...although I tend to be a little obsessive...so when I throw myself into things at the expense of everything else, except my children who are always #1...and my H has always been #1 at least in my heart, too.Since Jan 8, my mission has been my marriage...and my own recovery. I have to say my job has suffered a bit because I have not spent to much time thinking about it like I used to. I am known for being exceptionally detail and service orientated at work. Now I do enough to cover my tail. Have to get other passions back, but it is tough. This has consumed me.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

cl...say you have the book and will lead us!------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

I'm still thinking about the inferior/superior game. Suppose a betrayer ends the affair and says he is repentant. Then he sits there and goes on about the good thing he has done. He whines about how everyone is looking down on him. Is this an attempt to be superior? Does the wrongdoer use the wrong in order to be superior by spouting off about how heroic it is to stop the affair instead of displaying honest humility? I guess to me an apology that comes with an attitude isn't really an apology. Just a hypothetical question.

Hypothetically, WS:IF my husband were to admit to an affair, this is EXACTLY how he would react.A bit narcistic (could use your spelling book, FHL!!!) Is it possible we are married to the same man, and he is a bigamist? LOL-we are starting to all talk the same language, AND sound alike, aren't we? Lord help us all!!! FHL, I know what I want. A miracle. The truth. A husband that appreciates me, and values honesty - and wants good kids, and has a backbone - but not an abusive husband! He has a backbone, alright - only with me! And I think those things that I want are not out of fear, but out of the upbringing that I had - and expectations for my life. I don't think it has anything to do with fear, really.So, for me - this delicate detachment is really a hard one. Can't figure out how to do it without building resentment. I know how to detach - but I use hostility to do it. Odviously, that is the OLD cycle. I think I need a new approach.And, I don't care who leads step 6!!!! I'll do it if you want! Anybody got a scanner and can email it to me? FHL, you have done terrific - and I think and vote for you to continue! Okay - maybe you and WS are good analyzers and should do this together... And CL should be the "fixer"... And I'll be the patient, because sometimes I just don't get it...Cl - Answers how to fix this problem?You have the diagnosis now, what is the cure?1)H can be nice/romantic /touching when all is going okay in his world, but shuts it off like a faucet when things do not go according to his plan.2.H believes he has a sense of entitlement to preference, because he is a male...And needs approval from females - but believes he has the right to control/dictate women because of his preference.3.H believes that he must continue his behaviors learned from childhood. 4.H uses me as scapegoat, and in other relationships will use others as scapegoats. 5.H feels inadequate and needs to compare himself to those less adequate for self esteem. 6.W feels like clobbering husband, but is using a tremendous amount of self restraint to keep from doing so. She is losing patience.*** Ok CL - how about a prescription for treatment????Delicate detachment without resentment?

Trustntruth, Well I am not the wise young cl, but since your personality profile is so much like mine (INFP) which in my case can be likened to a marshmellow with a steeley hard core, maybe I can suggest a few things.Trustntruth, you are tenderhearted. You know what is right, want to live by those incredibily high standards and want the same for your loved ones.The problem is it fries our brains when others are not playing by the same rules. I mean if someone pointed out something to us and convince us it was not "right" we would change whatever it was for the sake of our integrity...don't you think? We tend to me more driven by internal guidelines, in both of our cases based on our faith, than by external. Even if we could "get away" with something we would not because we would have to live with ourselves. I know I am harder on myself than anyone else could be.Unfortunately this is not the world view. Look at the White House...deny, deny, deny. And on the other side of the aisle...when Newt's affair came out last month or so, I wanted to slap him too. How can people be so incogruent and show their face? And the whole idea character doesn't count in public life? It makes me want to breath into a bag. To me character is paramount (which includes recovering from mistakes with humility and grace), integrity is everything. OK enough of my speech. However, we are also peace keepers and we are incredibly skilled at this. Although we feel legitimate anger and indignation, we have a hard time applying tough love in our relationships. It feels unnatural and unkind. Plus we stink at it...at least I do. Actually I'm pretty good at it with my kids, but I know I'm the boss and I'm accountable for them. Marriage is not the same kind of relationship as parent/child and that is the challenge.How do we practice tough love in an intimate relationship with a partner that does not seem to share the same values and stay true to our vows and within God's plan for our marriage? I'm not sure. OK...so I'm not a big help. But I did read an interesting chapter in another short book. It said that truth telling is more important than peace keeping and the well being of the other person is more important than the current comfort level in the relationship. In other words letting the other person continue in dishonesty and whatever wrong doing is not the best for that person, although confronting the problem will be anything but peaceful.Your particular problem, is more complex because we want you to be safe and your H sounds volitile. And I don't think he is operating under the same value system so I'm not sure how effective this type of tough love can be. The bottem line is if you want to stay married no matter what you have to decide whether or not it is safe to make waves and pretty much stuff some things or put patches on them. If you are willing to risk your marriage...meaning making it right or getting out, then you need to resolve your differences because look what its doing to you. But you need to be safe.Praying for you------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

HI TNT, real quick cuz I have puter problems and am on a slow old 486! RX is 4 wks in Fiji. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hi Folks -With this stupid Webtv - I can't see the whole thread!!!!!!Can you make a part 2 - FHL?I hope that I haven't missed the whole thing and that you are done with it already!!! I have to go to work soon but wanted to do this one tonight.......Unless you're finished.let me know somewhere cuz I can't see on this one.Thanks!!!!!Hugs,Sheba

Sheeba...don't know what you're talking about. Please clarify and I will do it if possible.

Bookin' my flight now. Yes ma'am.... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I ordered the book, but it is not here yet. Should have arrived last week. Can both of our teachers start on judgements? I think it would be very good...both for relationships and forum. If we see the judgemental parts clearer I believe it will bring the detachment nto better focus. TNT, your h is avoiding because he is afraid of what he will find if he looks to deep. I cannot blame him in a way. It is safe, not always cozy, but real safe known ground he is on. He is chauvinistic...and I am not sure how to deal with that effectively. My h tends that way if left to drift too long. Some of his family is not always real keen on me either! But they have learned that this is what they get from me!! If nothing else I am consistent. I think that the gentle approach works better for me in these areas, but I am not convinced that this underlying chauvinistic attitude will ever go away-so I try to keep it at bay. I guess you are not going to be able to make him grow up...ever. He needs to do it himself. I wonder if having the girls there will help that? If he expects them to start taking responsibility and being realible, then won't he have to be? [This message has been edited by cl (edited September 21, 1999).]

step 5

The Student requested these, but everyone is welcome to revisit!------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

This is something I brought up in another post. Mainly that I don't think I could reconcile with my ex because I'd always feel like he'd be one up on me and I'd be doing all the giving to "make up" for what I did. Although Elixer called me "pathetic" for saying that, my H gave me many reasons to feel that way.1. He said he'd be calling all the shots from now on (i.e. school, work, etc.)2. He often commented on his "moral superiority" and had done so for a long time before the affair. The fact I'd been married before was one thing he'd hold up to me, among many other things.I could go on. I did resist. A number of times early in our relationship, I told him I was pretty sure he'd made mistakes too (like being stoned throughout most of his college years, almost o.d.ing on mushrooms, hitting his girlfriend), but that I didn't see any point in reminding him about them and that his attitude was hurting me. The more I read, the more I'm convinced our marriage didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.Nonplused said that I should demand to be trusted, if I trusted myself. Problem is, "demands" don't get you real far if divorce is not an option (or a weapon), and your spouse is willing to push it to the brink to have their own way.

I thought this one would really hit home with you. And your right, the cards were stacked against you on this one.------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13