java Logically arrives at conclusion he needs to use less logic and more empathy

Marriage Builders

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Jave/Tony,

I don't know what part of the U.S. you live in (or even if you live in the U.S. to be honest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) but I am doing the mom taxi thing this afternoon. Two teenagers--ya know?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> After taxiing them to the various malls and friends' houses, then I have to make dinner and load dishes and do at least one load of laundry. Thus, when my household duties are complete, I suspect I'll be back about 9pm Mtn. Time (which is 8pm Pacific, 10pm Central, and 11pm Eastern time for those of you who can't translate--haha).

If this is too late for you, I suggest you start a new thread about "Winning Your Wife Back" and give me ONE new thing you learned by re-reading the first few chapters, and one way that you plan to immediately integrate that new learning into your daily life. In my spare moments watching the dryer tumble, I will also re-read the chapters and discuss with you from the point of view of a lady, and what I LONGED from my exH to understand. Okay?? Okay, see ya then!

CJ <hr /></blockquote>CJ,

I'm in the midwest. I've done two loads of laundry, a third is about to go in. I've changed the drive belt on my "new" car (a 1995 T-Bird), have now read three chapters in that book, as well as Day 15 of The Purpose Driven life and looked up the scripture references.

Alas, no kids here at the home as DW took them with her.

I still have bills to pay. (Is it disrespect of me to comment that DW didn't bother to take those with her?) As well as I should probably do my monthly report and close some of my calls from earlier this week.

So I empathise with the busy.

What did I learn?

I've comitted almost every penalty in the forward of the book since she has left.

How do I integrate that? Well, if I do nothing, at least I stop the penalties.

However, I don't see that as winning as much as stopping the losing.

I want to win.

Tony
Wondering how to do more than "not lose"

PS, I did read the part about starting a new thread. I can copy this to that new thread.

[ March 07, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

CJ,

I know you are worried about me losing my love for my wife, and not honoring her, cherishing her, and loving her.

What if that is what I'm supposed to do? My wife has left. She has had at least an emotional affair with another man if not a physical affair. She has withheld information from me that would help me treat her the way she wanted to be treated, she seemed to dislike sex, even on our honeymoon. Or at the very least, she didn't act like she enjoyed it with me.

Now I want my wife back, but I want a marriage that is full of love and passion. I don't want to feel like I'm only a meal ticket that gets some sex service out of a sense of duty maybe once every 4-6 weeks.

I guess my heart is broken and hardened. I feel like my W lied to me. Before we married we talked about sex and about how important we were to each other. We agreed that we should put the other before any other person, children included. I shared with her that I desired to make love with her several times a day, and she said that is what she wanted too.

So that didn't even happen during the honeymoon. That promise was broken. I'm sure I disappointed too. I certainly wasn't romantic. Of course that was no change from dating. You could say the sex was too since we didn't have sex with one another before we married. (However, neither of us were virgins.)

I want her back, but I want a wife who is a willing passionate partner.

I'm praying for this, but what if the woman I want isn't found in my wife? I believe that I have biblical grounds to divorce without guilt or without dishonoring God.

I'm just so confused. I know I also have a daughter that deserves a mom and dad that love each other.

Tony

CJ,

I don't know if I totally destroyed any romantic love, or if there just wasn't any left, but I just got off the phone with W and she keeps telling me what I was afraid of.

She feels her life without me is so much better than her life with me. She feels stressed out talking to me, etc, so she cannot picture us together.

This is hard to overcome, because I did my level best not to LB and think I did a really good job. I asked her permission to talk, and if she had time. I asked her to help me understand her feelings and she said she was always stressed around me.

So, I guess I have to lighten up, huh?

I asked her to paint for me a picture of a happy marriage with me and she says she cannot see that. She doesn't understand how I could still love her. So how do I do more than just tell her that I love her, that I'm devistated by the thought that she will no longer be my wife.

How do I show her that she can relax around me? That her fears are no longer founded?

What I was afraid would happen has happened, she is happier without me than with me, and I apparently have no chance to show her that there is a way for her to be happy with me.

Well, at least I know. I know that I'm not the one who has given up. I will still try to show her a less uptight Tony, and that will make me a better person.

God will have to work in both of our hearts to change the tension between us.

Tony

[ February 22, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

Java and anyone else who wants to discuss and contribute:

First, I wanted to say that I can hear the sorrow and defeat in your posts, and I truly suggest that you do your best to rest, rest, rest and take care of yourself. I have no reason to think this, but I suspect you are exhausting yourself trying to read and figure this out and find the magic words or magic actions that will "fix" this. I know your heart is broken, your energy is low, and your tears are dry...so do take some time and be extra caring and gentle with yourself, okay? Every day I'm going to ask you what you did to care for yourself. Like you, I tend to read self-help books by the dozens, so for today I bought myself a purely FUN book to read "The King of Torts" by John Grisham. I do this to give myself a break from trying to analyze myself and fix myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

* * * * *

Okay, now regarding this thread I have a few openning thoughts that I need to share:

This thread is not a "pick on Java" thread, although I see that is kind of what you expect. This is hopefully a learning experience for us all, including me. I am not the nun and I don't have a ruler! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Next, I won't be "schooling" you, Tony. I'll be openning up about myself and my thoughts and hoping that your heart will be softened and touched by what happened to me.

Now...let's begin with Chapter One. I will share with you my thoughts--I encourage others to comment and share their thoughts--and Java, I want you to read with an open heart and share what you think you heard. Okay? Let's begin!

CJ

CJ,

First, getting schooled isn't a bad thing. I used to make my $$$ teaching. However, that stuff was easy, it was computers. They do exactly what you tell them to do.

If by the first chapter you mean "Pregame Warm-Up..."

What I learned is the games not over till it's over.

HOWEVER, there are no guarantees, and a bit of luck (not that I believe in luck, but I don't know a better word to use) is often needed.

God can create a victory. However, I also know that God will not force me or my wife to do anything, so saving the marriage is NOT certain.

I believe steps one and two are most critical. Avoiding penalties and opening her closed spirit. I have confidence in avoiding the penalties because I can see how they have not worked.

I have less confidence in opening her closed spirit. She is so set that the only path to her continued happiness is a divorce. This part is where I need the miracle.

This miracle is two fold, number one, I must be shown the way to either open that spirit or how to wait for it to be opened. Secondly, her closed spirit must be opened, by my acting as God would have me act, or by the work of the Holy Spirit.

That's what I've learned.

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
I don't know if I totally destroyed any romantic love, or if there just wasn't any left, but I just got off the phone with W and she keeps telling me what I was afraid of.<hr /></blockquote>Okay...so you have faced your greatest fear and looked it square in the eyes, and you didn't die. Tony, you are much stronger than you think you are. You have had your greatest fear become a reality in your life, and you are not running away. You are facing it and you are brave.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She feels her life without me is so much better than her life with me. She feels stressed out talking to me, etc, so she cannot picture us together.<hr /></blockquote>I don't mean this meanly, but of course she feels that way. Let's say she has her own little apartment, okay? She does not need to be afraid in her little apartment. She can paint it red if she wants to and no one yells. She can do whatever she feels like (good or evil) and no one holds her accountable. Most of the stress is gone. She is free to not walk on eggshells and not think of your feelings and not consider you and not try to avoid a fight at every turn. Seriously, Tony, it may be quiet and lonely, but to have the relief of not worrying about what's going to set you off has got to be HUGE.

Thus...we need the book. What you're doing is not working. It is increasing her hurt, not relieving it. In fact, at this time she can not even imagine how you could possibly relieve her pain when you have been the one to cause most of it. It's not fathomable. So, she told you the truth and be thankful for that...the truth. You need to show her that not only will you stop being the one to cause her pain, but you will make amends to her for the past pain you caused AND you will show her how her life will NOT be better without you in it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This is hard to overcome, because I did my level best not to LB and think I did a really good job. I asked her permission to talk, and if she had time. I asked her to help me understand her feelings and she said she was always stressed around me.<hr /></blockquote>Well...this is a little like saying, "Now that I have blown up the bank and utterly destroyed it, I did my best not to kick the teller in the shins." See, for her, there is no Love Bank anymore. There were withdrawals, withdrawals, withdrawals...and then the cement was chipped away...and then there was the last stone pulled out and the bank fell apart into rubble. So now that the bank is gone, there's nothing else TO withdraw. If you LB now, you are grinding up rubble and proving her point. You need to build a whole new bank.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I asked her to paint for me a picture of a happy marriage with me and she says she cannot see that. She doesn't understand how I could still love her. So how do I do more than just tell her that I love her, that I'm devistated by the thought that she will no longer be my wife.<hr /></blockquote>Well, Tony, her bank is rubble so she can not imagine what a new bank would look like. Plus she'd be nuts to rebuild a bank with the person who destroyed this one. Let the rubble lie and go build a bank on a new site...right? Can you see how she is seeing this a little? A tiny little pin-hole of light creeping in? She can not fathom how you could possibly ease her pain, and at this point, she identifies YOU with HURT. YOU=HURT. So that is the part we need to change...that association. You need to equal love, gentleness, haven and warmth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />How do I show her that she can relax around me? That her fears are no longer founded?<hr /></blockquote>Her fears ARE founded! That's just the problem. You don't tell a scared child, "Shut up, you don't need to be afraid." You take a scared child and turn on the light and show them they are safe and do actions that show them safety, and then you cuddle with them and comfort them. This is what you do with your wife. Her fears are founded. In her mind, she has reason to be afraid of you, and you just keep telling her "Stop it. You shouldn't be afraid." Take her a show her she is safe--show her by your ACTIONS!! Cuddle with her and comfort her, and if she will not allow you to touch her or comfort her, respect that. Demonstrate that she is safe. Think of her like a scared cat hiding under the bed. If you reach under and grab a scared cat, they will scratch you and fight furiously to get away from you; but if you leave it alone and let it have some time and space, but don't leave it, the cat will eventually come out. Then you can feed it, and it will feel a little bit happy with you (you=good). Then you can pet it, and it will purr (you=happy).

See??

CJ

Ok,

We probably have a month as she is in a hurry to divorce...

What if she is right and I'm not in love with her, but simply scared to not be married?

What about all the things that I'm unhappy about? I know I can't even bring them up right now, and I haven't. However, what if she is unwilling to address any of them?

I know, worry about that when the time comes...

Tony

[ February 23, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

Oh, and please flesh out what I have to do to show her she is safe around me. It sounds so easy, but it must not come naturally to me, otherwise, she would have felt safe around me the past 7.5 years.

Tony

CHAPTER ONE: PRE-GAME WARMUP

This is an important chapter and deserves time and thought and contemplation. Please do notjust breeze over it to "get to the good stuff." Now, I will say that it seems to me throughout this book that the author takes the football analogy a little too far, but let's see if we can't work with it anyway, shall we? I speak to you in english about my thoughts...not in football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, one of the first important points in this chapter is that what you are doing is not working. In my own marriage, I tried to anticipate my ex's needs, avoid his wrath, understand his issues, provide for sex within the bounds of our marriage, and be a good housekeeper and mother. Inadvertantly, I became in enabler of unhealthy behavior and codependent. He hurt me and I made a reason/excuse. He hurt me, and I did not allow him to experience the consequences of his actions. He hurt me, and I cried but did nothing about it. I tried to avoid him hurting me by being "perfect" but of course something was always imperfect. I was a willing volunteer to living in an abusive relationship, because it was familiar and I had invested a lot already (in years and financially). What I was doing was NOT working.

My exH did a small hurt, and I didi not say anything. I let resentment build. Another small hurt, and more resentment built. Yet another, and I would explode in anger at level 9, when that particular small hurt was a level 2 hurt. I was abused as a child, and I learned how to deal with hurt by disassociating and stuffing it. So, in my marriage, I "went somewhere else" mentally while he was screaming at me, and I stuffed it. What I was doing was NOT working.

I was so busy with the children and their schools and friends and extra activities, that I was too busy to take care of my appearance and attractiveness. I thought I had a life partner, threw thick and thin, and I let myself get thick thinking he loved me for the beauty that was inner. In fact, he was a human man, and he may have loved some of my innerness, but he could also see--and he lost interest. I was so busy with my own anger and issues, that I found fault with him and nagged and nagged him to change. I was critical and judgemental, because he was screaming and mean. It was tit for tat. I tried but I HURT, so I was mean too. And SHE wasn't. She admired him. She found him interesting and smart and funny. She laughed with him. She kept herself attractive. What I was doing was NOT working.

So, do not just blow past this, Tony. Take your emotional shield off and tell us...what you are doing that is NOT working. Don't reveal more than you are willing to share--I don't mean that. I just mean, if you can't open up and share it, at least open up to yourself and dig deep...what are you doing that is NOT working? Your biggest fear is not that her life is better without you. Your biggest fear is that when you look at yourself, she is right.

**********

Another important concept in this chapter is that the more-of-the-same approach maintains the problem and more likely intensifies it. You've heard of the 180 concept right? When you look at yourself and honestly consider what you are doing that is not working, the next step is to do 180 degrees exactly the opposite. If you are crying and begging her to come back, take a deep breath and tell HER that you are happy to have this chance to be apart from her so that you can have some personal time to yourself. You don't need to be cruel about it--be honest but be 180 degrees different. If you have been panicking and calling all the time, learn meditation to calm yourself and don't call her for two days. She'll wonder what you're up to. Continuing to do the same thing will magnify the problem and make it worse, so do something new and different.

**********

Another important thought in this chapter is to relax and develop a plan. When my exH left me, I became a CJ-puddle and did not stop to thing about what I was doing. I begged, cried, demanded, acted hurt, even threatened...but I did not stop to slow down and think (at least not at first). Then, I did. I stopped the emotional whirlwind and stopped my whirling mind and took an emotional deep breath. I realized that this was not going to be over in a day or an hour, so I had some time. I realized that going off all unprepared and willy nilly was not profitable nor was it going to help me attain my goal (which at the time I thought was saving my marriage--and later I realized was saving me).

Tony, relax. You have time--possibly several months and maybe several years. There is not going to be a "magic fix" to this and there is not one magic action that makes her love you again. This is for the long haul and it's going to take a PLAN. Rest, restore yourself, and calmly come up with your plan.

**********

(con't)

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 CHAPTER ONE: PRE-GAME WARMUP

This is an important chapter and deserves time and thought and contemplation. Please do notjust breeze over it to "get to the good stuff." Now, I will say that it seems to me throughout this book that the author takes the football analogy a little too far, but let's see if we can't work with it anyway, shall we? I speak to you in english about my thoughts...not in football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, one of the first important points in this chapter is that what you are doing is not working. In my own marriage, I tried to anticipate my ex's needs, avoid his wrath, understand his issues, provide for sex within the bounds of our marriage, and be a good housekeeper and mother. Inadvertantly, I became in enabler of unhealthy behavior and codependent. He hurt me and I made a reason/excuse. He hurt me, and I did not allow him to experience the consequences of his actions. He hurt me, and I cried but did nothing about it. I tried to avoid him hurting me by being "perfect" but of course something was always imperfect. I was a willing volunteer to living in an abusive relationship, because it was familiar and I had invested a lot already (in years and financially). What I was doing was NOT working.

My exH did a small hurt, and I didi not say anything. I let resentment build. Another small hurt, and more resentment built. Yet another, and I would explode in anger at level 9, when that particular small hurt was a level 2 hurt. I was abused as a child, and I learned how to deal with hurt by disassociating and stuffing it. So, in my marriage, I "went somewhere else" mentally while he was screaming at me, and I stuffed it. What I was doing was NOT working.

I was so busy with the children and their schools and friends and extra activities, that I was too busy to take care of my appearance and attractiveness. I thought I had a life partner, threw thick and thin, and I let myself get thick thinking he loved me for the beauty that was inner. In fact, he was a human man, and he may have loved some of my innerness, but he could also see--and he lost interest. I was so busy with my own anger and issues, that I found fault with him and nagged and nagged him to change. I was critical and judgemental, because he was screaming and mean. It was tit for tat. I tried but I HURT, so I was mean too. And SHE wasn't. She admired him. She found him interesting and smart and funny. She laughed with him. She kept herself attractive. What I was doing was NOT working.

So, do not just blow past this, Tony. Take your emotional shield off and tell us...what you are doing that is NOT working. Don't reveal more than you are willing to share--I don't mean that. I just mean, if you can't open up and share it, at least open up to yourself and dig deep...what are you doing that is NOT working? Your biggest fear is not that her life is better without you. Your biggest fear is that when you look at yourself, she is right.

**********
<hr /></blockquote>Right about what, that she is happier without me than with me? I've already said that, and I believe it is true. She is happier in her own apartment than she is around me. It is true, I can see the tension and unease she has around me.

I feel like the confession of my using Porn and self pleasuring because of the lack of SF while scripturally sound to confess, is yet another reason for her to not trust me, even though she has been offered full access to my computers, everything to check to see that I've not done that since she moved out.

I've completed the Setting Captives Free course and have a victory in that aspect of my life.

And she cannot see that, because she didn't even know that was an issue. I was convince to confess that sin to her, and now she uses it to justify that she is making the right decision.

She doesn't want to hang around to see the changes that have occured in my life.

I understand that behavior made me selfish, that was time and energy I should have used to learn more about her, and to try to be more intimate with her. However, I became frustrated because my every attempt to get closer to her, in both sexual and non-sexual ways seemed to end in failure.

So being open and honest with her has not worked.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Another important concept in this chapter is that the more-of-the-same approach maintains the problem and more likely intensifies it. You've heard of the 180 concept right? When you look at yourself and honestly consider what you are doing that is not working, the next step is to do 180 degrees exactly the opposite. If you are crying and begging her to come back, take a deep breath and tell HER that you are happy to have this chance to be apart from her so that you can have some personal time to yourself. You don't need to be cruel about it--be honest but be 180 degrees different. If you have been panicking and calling all the time, learn meditation to calm yourself and don't call her for two days. She'll wonder what you're up to. Continuing to do the same thing will magnify the problem and make it worse, so do something new and different.

<hr /></blockquote>I may call her about once a week, so I'd hardly say it's panicky or desperate. Seldom do we talk about the relationship. Tonight was different and we talked, we really talked.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

**********

Another important thought in this chapter is to relax and develop a plan. When my exH left me, I became a CJ-puddle and did not stop to thing about what I was doing. I begged, cried, demanded, acted hurt, even threatened...but I did not stop to slow down and think (at least not at first). Then, I did. I stopped the emotional whirlwind and stopped my whirling mind and took an emotional deep breath. I realized that this was not going to be over in a day or an hour, so I had some time. I realized that going off all unprepared and willy nilly was not profitable nor was it going to help me attain my goal (which at the time I thought was saving my marriage--and later I realized was saving me).

Tony, relax. You have time--possibly several months and maybe several years. There is not going to be a "magic fix" to this and there is not one magic action that makes her love you again. This is for the long haul and it's going to take a PLAN. Rest, restore yourself, and calmly come up with your plan.

**********

(con't)

CJ <hr /></blockquote>The divorce can be final in a matter of weeks. I don't know if I can continue to try if the divorce is complete. That may destroy my love bank for her.

I can see her point, I don't want the old marriage either, and the way she acts right now, she is not really appealing to me.

I don't know if I've addressed your questions. I really need to sleep, but have been unable to fall asleep in the past 30 minutes...

Tony

(slightly off topic, but worth discussing:)

Even if she is in a rush to get a divorce, unless you agree to everything, it does not need to go quickly. I am not advocating instigating a malicious divorce, but unless you lay down your rights to custody, agree 100% on property division and alimony and child support, and are in a "no fault" state, it does not need to go quickly. I do happen to live in a "no fault" state, and I did happen to have a fairly civil and agreeable divorce (relatively speaking) and it took four months from filing to judgment. You probably do have some time here. Not enough to sit around!!

**********

Okay, back to Chapter One. Another HUGE concept in this chapter that is worthy of time and contemplation is "there are no guarantees". At first, like you, I took this in a depressing kind of way--like even if I do all the right things, I still might not save my marriage. But the more I thought about it, the more I knew that I really already knew this...deep down. Even if you become the perfect, loving husband Tony, she may be hardened enough to choose to divorce you--and you can not change her or "make" her love you. Harsh, I know.

Here's what I can guarantee though...if you really look at yourself and work on yourself and draw close to God and become a more godly man, I can guarantee you that this divorce situation will be a victory for you. Here's what I mean. When my exH left me and then continued to commit other affairs while also telling me he was working on the marriage, I was devastated. No matter how much I learned or grew or humbled myself, he was NOT willing to stop having cybersex with other women or one-night-stands. He would NOT soften his heart or even consider truly saving our marriage. BUT...even though our marriage ended, I actually DID grow tremendously. I grew in humility and not only saw the error of my ways but worked on actually being different. I went to counseling and worked on myself. I became more godly and grew MUCH closer to God, so that now God is involved in my everyday life and I can hear Him. I used my exH's life choices as a wake up call to me. Even though our marriage ended, it was a victory for me. Now, I look back on all that hurt and all those tears, and I am thankful for it, because it changed my life so completely.

I know that sounds pretty empty and hollow right now. You want your wife back and you want to be loved RIGHT NOW. Well, I'm going to ask you to trust me on this one. If you use this for good, even if your wife chooses to follow through on the divorce, you will be a better man. I guarantee.

**********

JACK AND DEANNE

I found it interesting in this book that the affair example that the author chose to use was primarily told from the BS point of view. Being a BS myself, I completely understand the doubt, confusion, suspicion, guilt, betrayal, dying inside, hurt, anger, and pain that Deanne felt. But the author does not reveal much of Jack's side, as if Deanne is justified in HER hurt, but Jack is not justified in his.

I'm not sure if this will make much sense, but try to step into the shoes of a WS before you utterly tell them that they are soulless, selfish, thoughtless, cruel family-wreckers. Jack probably dated Deanne for at least a year, and being proper Christian folks, they maybe kissed and petted, but did not actually have intercourse before marriage. They talked about sex and seemed to want the same things, but after the wedding and honeymoon, she was not really as interested in sex as she had indicated. Well...Jack is a good christian man who loves his wife, so he decided to live with it.

They lived in a cute little one-room apartment and then miracle of miracles, one day Deanne told him she was pregnant. Now, one room would not be big enough for a family, so Jack felt some pressure to earn a little more, and he took a part time job on the weekend. He was spending more hours away from Deanne. And after the first baby, a second came along and she wanted a house--not just a rental. So he climbed up the corporate ladder even more and spent more hours away from Deanne.

With two kids all to herself, Deanne began to be harsh with Jack...why didn't he help her with the kids and the house? Why did he have to be gone all those hours? And from the two kids she had gained some weight and he no longer found her as physically attractive. But, how could he tell her that? I mean, she was his wife and the mother of his children! How do you say, "Honey, I'm not attracted to you anymore--you're too fat"? So he began to lose some interest in sex too...and why do the romantic stuff if there's no sex, right? Hey, why would he want to meet her needs when she's not meeting his?

So, she gets tied up in PTA, and soccer-mom, and neighborhood watch, and he gets tied up in work, work, work. Then a new girl gets hired at work, and she is pretty. Not stunning...not a drop dead gorgeous woman, but she's got a figure a little and pretty eyes. But mostly, she looks at Jack without judgment and nagging. She thinks he's smart. She thinks he's funny and witty. She thinks he's fun to be with. She admires him. She flirts a little with him. Nothing big at first, but enough to make him feel good about himself. "I still got it." She looks at him with interest and desire--Deanne looks at him with tired eyes and the same old nag in her throat.

So...the new office girl flirts a little more, and to show her that he won't be embarrassed, he flirts back even a little more. Oh, he justifies that it's just flirting and nothing will come of it. He starts making up reasons to be around her and stays late to spend a little more time with her. Then, one day, she touches his arm and it's like electricity. Deanne doesn't even want to touch him--plus, he's losing his desire to touch her! So the next day at work, Jack hugs the new girl, and it is AWESOME. Someone is excited by him. He has found his new adrenalin. So he makes excuses, lies, anything to be with her. They never sleep together, but one day, Deanne sits outside his office and sees him come out and kiss her....

Hmmm...why do this? Why present the WS's side? Here's why. Because as BS's we tend to sit in pretty high judgment, thinking of our WS's as selfish and heartless, when in reality, we as BS's contributed. Now, the WS's decided to step over the line and not stop things--they are responsible for that part, so don't get me wrong--but it wasn't done in a vacuum. They aren't so selfish and heartless. Just like anybody else, Jack was looking for someone to look at him with love in their eyes, and he wasn't getting that from his wife and he didn't know how to tell her.

So we are back to this: what we are doing is NOT working. Looking at the Jack and Deanne story from Jack's point of view, do you think that if he left Deanne to be with the new girl that if Deanne begged and panicked and cried for him to come back that it would be attractive to him? Or would he probably think, "I was with you and you threw me away. I wanted you to want me enough to admire me and desire me, but you didn't even try! My life is better without you, and now I don't have to listen to you nagging me about the weights around my neck!"

**********

There are some significant choices to be made:

* Are you going to react out of hurt and anger?
Or are you going to respond calmly from your plan?

* Are you going to face your part in this head-on without ducking? Or are you going to run away and blame other and squirm and duck?

* Are you going to face the pain and loneliness and fear? Or are you going to numb it with addictions to food, drink, drugs or sex?

* Are you going to find the treasure in this trial? Or are you going to bury it?

* Are you going to humble yourself and learn? Or are you going to act like you know it all?

* Are you going to admit the error of your own ways (since you are the only one you can change)? Or are you going to allow pride to rule you and make you incapable of admitting to yourself that you made mistakes.

Tony...this is heady stuff, and it's only Chapter ONE!! Chapter Two: Openning a Closed Spirit will probably take awhile, because once a spirit is closed, it is like a protective wall of shields. You can not open it by force, and it covers a LOT of hurt. So rest now, and get ready for tommorrow.

Your assignments:
1) Do something to care for you. Rest. Renew yourself. Listen to music you like. Go to a park you like. Light some candles if that soothes you. Do something!

2) Read what I've written. If you have questions we will talk and will not go onto Chapter Two until we're done. If other people write, read what they write too.

3) Pray for willingness to open your heart.

Meanwhile, I have a big day ahead of me: school, work, and Girl Nite with my daughter. See you tomorrow night again about 9pm-ish!

CJ

Java/Tony,
First off, I feel your pain. I have been doing my best to not LB and succeeded for thepast 2-3 weeks. Then last night, I went food shopping for her befause she was so drained. Then we were suppose to take care of our D's hair last night, the lice are back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , at 10 pm. I fell asleep on the floor. She had D wake me up, and W said she would take care of D's hair in the AM. So I am half asleep and doing my laundry when she complains about the grocery list and why didn't I scratch things off? What did I buy, I don't do things like normal people. (I '+' in front of each item I bought, and a '-' with a circle around it for each item I couldn't find). She said she didn't understand what I was doing, and laced into me, half asleep. So I took, she said grabbed and touched her, the pen and circled the entire item. I then went to bed on the sofa, my current bed <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . A few minutes later she wnet totally nuts, and of course, everything I do comes back to the A. She was going to do a cake for me (have to pay her) for my church's craft show. She was going to charge me $40 for it. Now she says why should she give me a break, she hopes I die. Anyway I digress. I have slowly learned to stop LBing, but the devil found the one spot I forgot to protect, my I am tired, I don't THINK.

Secondly, what is this book you and CJ are talking about?

Thirdly, Below is my email. If you want to send me an email, I will send you my number and we can chat if you want to. I too am close to D. She has filed and yesterday she brought up that in her tirade. Even though I am the WS and not the BS like you, perhaps we can help eachother. This whole mess has brought me closer to God and I do feel Him in my life. Just don't feel like He is working in my W's life, but, that is my failing to understand His ways are not my ways.

"Father. Cover your son, Tony, with Your love and peace. Give him wisdom to see the error that he has made and to strive to be more like Your Son, Jesus Christ. Guide him in his actions and words to his wife. Convict his heart (and his head) when he is not living his life as you want.
Comfort all of us here who seek restoration to our marriages and more importantly, salvation of our spouses (be they BS or WS).
This we ask through the Most Precious Blood of Jesus Christ that was poured out so we may enjoy eternity with You. Amen."

ttsmm

There is so much here to read, and I was paged again at about 4AM. So I'll look at it after 6pm Central

Thanks that I'm getting rid of the pager after 5pm.

DW called me this AM asking if I could pick up the kids since she wasn't feeling well.

I guess I'm good for something.

Tony

PS ttsmm,

The book is "Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late" by Gary Smalley

t

[ February 23, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

I will get back to this topic. My brain is really tired, but I know the pager will not wake me tonight.

However, I'm setting the alarm for 4:30AM. I need to get back to my routine, and devotions early in the AM is part of that.

See you in about 6 hours.

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 What if that is what I'm supposed to do? My wife has left. She has had at least an emotional affair with another man if not a physical affair. She has withheld information from me that would help me treat her the way she wanted to be treated, she seemed to dislike sex...Or at the very least, she didn't act like she enjoyed it with me.<hr /></blockquote>Tony, I have pondered this post, and I do not have an answer for you. There is not some action that you can do, and I can't "make it better for you." I can say that I understand what you're going through...and I can say that I've been where you are--wishing desperately that your spouse would just be honest with you and tell you truthfully what they want, instead of the twisted, inconsistent squirming and avoiding and denying.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now I want my wife back, but I want a marriage that is full of love and passion. I don't want to feel like I'm only a meal ticket that gets some sex service out of a sense of duty maybe once every 4-6 weeks...I guess my heart is broken and hardened. I feel like my W (cheated me). <hr /></blockquote>I hear ya. I think you may be correct in that right now, you are so exhausted and broken that your heart is hard--it's just too hard to keep hurting and hurting and hurting all the time. Tony, I suspect you've hit a bit of a wall, almost like the adrenalin crash. It was such a shock to your system that for a while you ran on pure, raw ENERGY to figure it out and work on it and do something and cry and throw up and just FIX IT!! Now, the energy is fading, and to protect yourself from further hurt, you're hardening a bit.

I think we may need to shift our focus from Winning Back Your Wife, to saving Tony.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm praying for this, but what if the woman I want isn't found in my wife? I believe that I have biblical grounds to divorce without guilt or without dishonoring God.<hr /></blockquote>Frankly, I think we all struggle with this. Like most everyone here on this board, I strongly believe that marriage is a lifetime commitment, stronger than just a "vow"--it's a blood bond. My exH was a non-believer, had affairs, had mental illness and sexual addiction, had physical illnesses, and was abusive--I believe if anyone had "biblical grounds" to divorce it was me. Shoot, he was a non-believer and wanted to leave me! Anyway, the point is that I think a marriage is for better/for worse, in sickness and in health--and that includes mental health. I believe I had a duty to my husband--especially if he was seeking treatment and working on his various ailments.

When he left me and the kids so he could be free to pursue his "lifestyle", I had no idea whether I should wait on God to reconcile us or look for a new mate some day or what. I had no idea whether I should consider myself a "free" woman or consider myself married and dedicated to God's service or what. I knew that I was created with a strong desire to share myself and my life with others, and I also knew that I was created in such a way that I enjoy intimacy and marriage. I knew that I wished that my exH would WANT to recover and WANT to be faithful--but reality was that he did not want that at all. So, how does that all fit together?? I don't know. Like you, I'd like a close, intimate connection with someone on a physical/emotional/mental/spiritual level--and that doesn't seem likely with my exH...so where does that leave me??

Here's what it boils down to, Tony: I don't know. I don't know waht "to do" to win back your wife. I don't know how to soften your heart again. And I don't know if you will have the loving, passionate relationship that you long for with THIS wife. With God all things are possible. BUT you know what? I DO know who knows these things--and that comforts me. God knows our hearts and He has a plan. That is comforting. Our only goal needs to be to get in sync with God and stay focused on that. If we are in God's will, then what is supposed to happen WILL happen. Of THAT I can be sure...and so can you.

CJ

CJ,

I have moments where I realize I have everything I need, but not necessarily all of what I want.

I don't think my desires are sinful, but yet they may be in the way of getting closer to God.

I slept through my alarm today, that is how tired I was. (Just an FYI, I usually get up BEFORE the alarm.)

I've read what you have written as well as the posts on the other thread and have a lot to ponder. I know I will be ok, and I believe that my wife is saved.

In some ways I can understand, she is just going after the desires of her heart, to be happy and at peace.

I don't wish her ill will, and while some say that some catastrophic "hitting bottom" may bring her back, I don't really want to see her hit bottom. I'm sure you all understand that.

I'll try to write more tonight, to read a bit more and put more effort into my answers.

I just wanted to let you know I'm still tuned in, but last week just ran over me, in a manner of speaking.

Tony

Java,

You know what? Let's take the night off. You're exhausted--physically, emotionally and mentally--and I'm not sure long dissertations on "Winning Your Wife Back" are what you need to restore your soul. How about if you do something just FUN, and something renewing, and I will do the same. Then, about 9pm MT, I'll tell you what I did and you tell me what you did.

Remember, even Psalm 23 says, "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul." I am going to "Maketh" you lie down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I shall listen to some Frank Sinatra tunes, and read my "for fun" book: "King of Torts" by John Grisham...then go to bed early. But...I'll check back at 9pm to tell you if I did what I planned or something else. BTW, having FUN and doing something FUN is one of the ways that a person can re-discover joy. So, if you've always liked to color, buy some crayons and a Peanuts colorbook and go for it! haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

CJ

Do you know how hard it is for an ESTJ to just have fun without a plan, LOL?

I've gotta get my financial papers in order for the visit to the lawyer tomorrow. Bank and brokerage statements, credit card statements, W2's and such.

I'll try to have some fun in there too...

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 Do you know how hard it is for an ESTJ to just have fun without a plan, LOL?

Tony <hr /></blockquote>Oh my heavens, Tony, we are in trouble!! My exH is an ESTJ and I am an INFP--natural opposites!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> No wonder we can't communicate well. I should have known. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Okay, before I start my shift into ESTJ-communication mode, let me tell you about my fun. I went bowling with some friends, and I bowled 161, 117, and 136. Respectable, hey? I had a VERY good time and once laughed so hard I thought I would pee my pants. This is something that INFP chicks do when we are ROFLMAO.

After bowling, I got myself an ice cream sundae (my absolute weakness is ice cream), and then ate each bite slowly and lusciously. YUM!! What a treat!!! I also took a drive and listened to some Sheryl Crow, so that was mellow. In a few moments, I'm going to be coloring.

* * * * *

Okay, I'm ready to shift into ESTJ-communication mode. You like facts, plans, schedules, thoughts, and black and white, right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You need to organize your financial papers?? Well, how about if you organize your finances alphabetically by category, in date order? Wouldn't that be fun?? Then you could jot down some facts relating to those financial papers in chronological order. WEEE! Finally, one big dose of Larry King Live, and you should be right as rain! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Soooo...for tonight we take the night off, have whatever our own definition of fun is, and start up refreshed and renewed tomorrow night. I will do my best to remember that you are ESTJ and relate to facts and figures, but if I digress into feelings and perceptions, will you just poke me in the ribs? Thanks.

CJ

P.S. I almost forgot! Your assignment! What do you think think about this statement: "The Greater the hurt, the longer the healing time"? Do you agree or disagree? How great do you think the hurt is? Quantify it if you can (scale of 1 to 10 maybe) or use some other means of measurement that seems to fit your situation. How much healing time do you think is needed right now? Do you think you fully understand the depth of her pain? Do you think she is more of a "feeler" than you are?

Let me give you an example: if my exH were to come to the Lord today and begin living today like a godly man; faithful, gentle, and loving husband; and thoughtful and devoted father, how much healing time would I need to trust him again? How great is my pain over the way I was treated abusively--the abandonment--and the multiple affairs? On a scale of 1-10 (1 being very little hurt, and 10 being complete emotional devastation verging on breakdown), I would say 9+. Because I have walked with God and some time has elapsed and I eased some of my own pain, it is probably 7-ish right now. But the plain and simple truth is that my understanding of life as I knew it was destroyed by someone I loved, and so the healing time I would require if he were to try to make it right with me and reconcile starting today would be great. I don't trust him and I don't trust me with him. I am afraid of him. I don't believe he loves me. I am afraid of the devastation of another affair and do not really even want to risk it again.

My point here is this. My pain is great. The healing time required would be long--and that's assuming he started trying to make amends today and did NO FURTHER DAMAGE. So, can you see it from your wife's side at all? What do you extrapolate would be her pain rating--and healing time? Do you have any thoughts about this or any questions?

I'll expect at least one paragraph-post-topic-or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CJ,

Seems like you think ESTJ is a bad thing. If you read my personality profile there is a lot of good in there.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ESTJ.html

I have to say that yes, I'm guilty of applying logic to a situation that requires emotional sensitivity. I'm getting better. Last Sunday night when I was talking with W, we got on the subject of money and her just calling and saying that I have to pay the pre-school tuition. We got on the topic of money, and all she was saying was things like:

You make 4x as much money as I do. (I also still pay ALL the bills from our home, her van, PLUS I give her what she asked for in Child Support. Not to mention that if my filing status changes to single, my taxes will probably rise significantly. My withholding as a single is $500 more each month.)

You had money to buy a second car. (I bought a 9 year old car, paid cash, I'm still making payments on her car. I sold a newer car that I had payments on, took the cash I netted over the payoff and put it on this car.)

Your car insurance wouldn't be as expensive if you didn't have two cars. (I pay more to cover her van than my two cars combined.)

I didn't promise to pay my credit card bill. (She not only promised to do this, but had the bill sent to the apartment, and has not paid it yet since she has left.)

So yes, I'm focused on all of the logic, as I don't really understand she is hurt.

I do KNOW as a fact that she is hurt, but I certainly don't understand it. I've expressed that I know she is hurt, and I've heard her say that she is hurt, and it seems I still hurt her and don't even know it. She said the conversation Sunday was painful.

So I asked her why she didn't share that with me? No answer. I ended it as soon as I realized it was hurting her. But how am I supposed to know it hurts if she doesnt tell me.

My W is probably your MBTI type, INFP from my best guess. Of course, she refuses to take any sort of test and has refused to take any of the MB questionaires as well.

Again, I'm guilty of applying logic here. She hurts, she just told me she is hurt, so I want to do the work needed so I can learn not to hurt her, so I've apologized for hurting her and asked her to tell me in ways that I can understand how she hurts. She is so withdrawn that she cannot or will not provide this information.

She just says she is hurt and that is supposed to be enough for me.

I have to accept that perhaps that is all she wants to tell me or is willing to tell me. However, I still want to know more, as well as get that chance to rebuild the bank.

I don't even know specifically what to apologize for, I just have this general information that she hurts.

I know she resents the money issue. Money has always been an issue. I'm a saver, and she is a spender. I'm sure it looks to her like I had money for my hobbies, but would give very little to her. When I look at the facts, I've spent far more on her and the kids than I've spent on my hobbies.

But she feels differently, and I don't know how to deal with these fears. We now have debt, a lot of debt, debt that I didn't have the day before I married.

I know I handled this badly, because once I became unhappy, I started spending more on my car hobby. Well I've sold them all, all the toys and just have two "beaters" to drive. All of my wheels, extra tires, and performance goodies are gone on e-bay. Oh, I have one wheel still remaining, it only drew $1 on E-Bay so I no-saled it since it didn't meet my reserve.

Ditto for a bunch of extra computer gear.

I'm sure it will take a long time, and since I'm logic driven, this makes no sense to me at all. Since I don't know exactly what hurts her, what she wants (other than to not be married to me) I have little hope of:

a) not stepping on her toes and hurting her more
b) knowing what to do to get to the point where I can even rebuild the lovebank

I'm sure you can understand why I need a plan, and need to see things working.

I don't know if I'll ever understand how much she hurts, but it must be really bad since she has been gone 5 months now and won't even go to dinner with me, let alone consider reconciliation.

So now you understand why I cry out to God to give me understanding. Why I'm so frustrated that he hasn't made her pain more apparent to me. Why I'm so frustrated with her (again logic) that if she felt this bad, why didn't she just say she was hurting and unhappy.

She never used the words I'm unhappy until she announced on Sep 6 that she wanted to move out. BTW, for being so sensitive, she picked a really lousy day, I just returned from the funeral of a 103 year old great aunt who I greatly admired.

Well, I did nothing last night. I just rotted my mind watching TV. I watched a pretty funny game show on SpikeTV called Oblivious.

I'm getting my papers together this AM

Tony

I'm off to bed early tonight. Trying to catch up on my rest...

I hope my comments are satisfactory <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tony
Proud to be an ESTJ, LOL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
Seems like you think ESTJ is a bad thing. If you read my personality profile there is a lot of good in there. <hr /></blockquote>Oh my, java, I have given you entirely the wrong impression. In fact, I tend to like ESTJ's! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I most certainly do NOT think ESTJ is a "bad" thing--any moreso than INFP is a "bad" thing. It's just completely different that I am! The way that I interpret data and live in my world is quite different from the way that you interpret data and live in YOUR world, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

When I was with my exH, I remember thinking that it would be "ideal" to be with someone who was also an INFP or perhaps was one letter off, like INTP or something. We would understand each other so much easier! Then I realized that by living with someone my natural opposite, I had such an opportunity to learn about differences. Even though I may filter data through my feelings, it is to my advantage to at least learn about people who filter data through their throughts (analyzing, evaluating, logic). It's GOOD for me to learn how to thing (haha)!

As for the rest of it, I have to be honest with you. It's midnight here in the Mile High City, and I'm beat. I have a headache from trying to keep my eyes open! OY!

I'll write more tomorrow, I promise, but for tonight, I'm hitting the hay.

CJ

CJ,

It's just the roll eyes emoticon. Too me, it's not a positive expression.

Tony

Okay,

"NOTE TO SELF" The rolleyes emoticon is not a positive one for Tony.

Got it.

Just so you know, I always that that was an "oh brother" halfway funny one; as in when I said I like ESTJ's... Well my exH is an ESTJ and I did love him truly, and my son is an ESTJ cookie cutter of his dad and I love and like him, and most of the people I enjoy as people have at least E-T-and some portions of J. So, yep, I'm a sucker for ESTJ's and somehow end up enjoying them. So I did the rolleyes to indicate, "It figures--haha!"

I don't know what it is. I am wiped out today. I'm going to try to get to this thread earlier today than usual, so I can get to bed at 9pm!! Wouldn't that just be a miracle! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Peace be with you today, Java.

CJ

CJ,

I hope you are recovered. I don't know how much time I'll have the next few days. W asked me to keep our daughter until Wednesday morning.

Tony

Hey, Tony...

Are you ready to come back and get some schoolin'?

I will do my very best to communicate some "Feeler" type concepts to a "Thinker" type audience, but if you do not understand try to bear in mind it's like teaching a French class in German--something gets lost in translation.

Shall we start the Penalties chapter tomorrow night? I'm game if you are!

Meanwhile, tonight, I'll pray that God will use my typing to communicate with you, and pray that God will soften your heart to receive understanding. Remember, the goal here is not a witty, conceptual debate or evaluation of the facts...the goal is to gain some kind of understanding of what your wife may be feeling. If "facts" are inaccurate, listen for the message and not for perfect facts--okay?? Will you try?

Good! Me Too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, it is that 1am hour and I must retire! I've had a hurtful, triggery day and I hate when I get all emotional like that, but I do. The best remedy is sometimes just to let the day end.

CJ

I probably won't have time until Wed night, but if I do get time, I'll post my "view of the facts" and you tell me how they make you feel, LOL

Otherwise, if you feel lead to share something, don't let me hold you back.

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 ...but if I do get time, I'll post my "view of the facts" and you tell me how they make you feel, LOL<hr /></blockquote>YAY!! Thank you, Tony, for joining in the fun! As long as you stay logical and analytical, I'll stay all touchy-feeley...okay?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I may write something tonight, because I have some time, but I'll understand if you can't write until Wednesday. Have fun with your little girl!!

CJ

Ok,

Penalties:

1. Recruiting. How will this make my wife feel? (After all, it's about feelings, right?) It's competitive, adversarial, taking sides. It may feel like you are stealing someone important to her. Many times, I heard her say she didn't even want me to TALK to her family. She has a great fear that I would try to recruit them.

I did talk to them, but I think I dodged actually recruiting them. I said I understood that they needed to be there for Lori, and I just wanted them to know that I was sorry for hurting her, that I didn't really understand what I had done, but never wanted to hurt her, nor did I realize that I was so insensitive.

However, even that upset her.

So I try to avoid her family as much as possible.

2. Blaming, well that's hard not to do. I mean she went out and had at least an EA if not more. She didn't tell me in a way I understood how she felt, even knowing before we married that I wasn't really in tune with feelings. However, I did tell her that I didn't want to run over her feelings (this conversation was before we married) and that I may need help understanding how she feels.

But, since I can only fix myself, I should only blame myself.

This one is really the hardest to overcome for me, because if I think too much about what has happened, then I really think divorce is the right answer.

So in that sense, I can understand how she feels, that she just doesn't want to do the work anymore. We both worked hard in our own ways, independently to build a marriage.

This doesn't work very well.

So in some ways, I can see how she feels about blame, because even blaming her makes ME feel bad.

This is one of my daily prayers, that I can really forgive her, and not hold this against her.

3. Critical Spirit

Well, I'm guilty here too. I mentioned in another thread about how I tend to be critical, and how about 10 days ago, while on-call I noticed that the only cars I remembered on the roads were the ones with significant defects.

Criticism if overdone makes anyone feel bad, and since I believe W to be an INFP, criticsm is even more dangerous.

4. Being impatient. W mentioned many times that I didn't give her enought space. Gee, she has her own apartment, etc. and she still felt like she didn't have enough space. Well, my desire to "fix" the problem certainly overrode all the advice about being patient.

Besides patience is one of the fruits of the spirit, so if I'm acting impatiently, then I'm probably not in the right frame of mind or I'm not responding to the Holy Spirit, but the unHoly Spirit.

5. Setting a Time Frame

Well, I sorta did this saying how long I wanted to plan A before moving to a plan B. But I don't think I expressed this to her. However, setting a time frame does little for my mind and soul.

6. Displaying Affection

No opportunity. I've not touched W much at all since Sep 6th. I may have touched her shoulder, but certainly no hugs, no kisses, nothing. I'm sure that would make her uncomfortable.

7. Overkilling

Yes, when I started doing the things she said she wanted me to do, she said it annoyed her because it was like "Why Now?"

Well, I wanted to show her what I was capible of doing. However, to my own credit, when she said it bothered her, I stopped. So I can be sensitive if I understand how she feels, and to be honest, I was following the advice of Steve Harley who counselled me to see what I could do.

8. Underestimating Hurt

Guilty, since I'm not a feeling kinda guy, I have no idea how much she hurts. In my defense, I'd like to say if I did know she was hurting months or years before she moved out, I would have been more than willing to address those things.

I underestimated her hurt during our entire relationship. I had no idea. Over two years ago, I asked her how we could get an hour a day together and asked her to tell me when she wanted to do that, what had to be done in order to have that time.

I must have asked for that on three seperate occassions and she never did say when she wanted to do this. Why didn't I just make a plan? Because I wanted her to feel like she had a lot of say in how we got to do that. If she wanted me to plan the whole thing, I would have been happy to do so, if she would have just said, it's a great idea, you run with it.

Whoops, sounds like I'm blaming her. No, not really. I do wish she would have taken my requests to spend more time together, just focusing on US or what was on our minds more seriously, but I didn't push for it either, nor did I present my own detailed plan, but simply the rough idea that we needed time alone with each other each day.

Well, I still think I might have had a better chance at understand how she felt if we had this time together on a daily basis.

9. Boundaries, I don't even know if I could express her boundaries. If I don't know them, it's hard for me to respect them, now isn't it?

That's my quick take over the last 30 minutes or so of thought and re-reading.

Tony

Must be working on patience now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tony

Ah, Java!

I am so sorry and hope you will accept my apology. I'm not dead, but I have broken my typing fingers (heehee...). No, not really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I had to do the company's payroll AND my daughter is in a play that is running Wed-Fri. this week and Thur-Fri. next week.

HOWEVER...

I have managed to write quite a lengthy reply which probably will not fit on just one post! OY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So, I have decided to post TWO (count 'em) posts, so that you no longer have wait with baited breath.

CJ

The suspense is killing me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So I'm off to the autoparts store. Seems the Prizm may need some new struts. I know there is a cracked exhaust manifold as well, but that seals up quite nicely when it warms up, and besides, it passed emissions on 2/13/04 (same day I got a copy of her divorce filing)

Thanks,

Tony

[ March 05, 2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

Tony,

Okay, here we go into the real meat of this book. These next two chapters are the most difficult for me to write about and remember, so let’s be a little gentle here. On the other hand, whilst these chapters are not so easy to face, these are also the chapters that bring the most hope if you can really take them to heart, eliminate pride, and get real with yourself.

By now, my ESTJ friend, you must know that winning back your wife is not a one-step process. There is no magic word or magic deed that you can do to make your wife go, “Oh, I love him again!” but there is a plan. There is a step-by-step process that can lead to winning your wife back. To me, that is encouraging, because as long as I can see there is a plan and hope of finally getting to the prize at the end, then I can endure. My advice to you, my brother, would be to work the plan. Do not skip steps, do not rush ahead and try to do all the steps at the same time, and do not belittle the process. Take each step and DWELL on each step… Really take the time to apply it to you and see how it affects your life. The tendency is to want to solve the problem now, now, NOW-but work the plan and find some encouragement in seeing movement and improvement and STEPS.

The PLAN:
1. Recognize the characteristics within you that are decreasing love and harming reconciliation. Get Real with yourself, be open-minded and humble, and do better.
2. Learn the things that will open a closed spirit, and develop those behaviors so you do them more!
3. Discover how to HONOR your wife and children, and start practicing it!
4. Practice sacrificial love-become a servant to your wife and family
5. Initiate change in yourself
6. Understand why some women are not able to reconcile
7. The Ultimate Goal: draw closer to the Lord
8. Develop patience and persistence
9. Find accountability partners
10. The pre-reconciliation report

PENALTIES:
1) Recruiting others to “your side”-don’t share your side with your kids or her family.
At this time, I can pretty well guarantee you that your wife feels abandoned by the man who was supposed to love her forever-even if she has OM. She’s probably just so tickled that someone found her cute, smart, funny, pretty, etc. that her defenses were lowered. Anyway, by recruiting others to your side, she will feel isolated, cut-off, and abandoned by her friends and family too. Speaking as a divorced chick, one of the things that hurt me the worst at the time was that my ex’s family just stopped speaking to me. It also hurt me when several of our business-associate-friends took his side so they could continue doing business with him, and never once even inquired if I were alive or dead or needed help. She already feels abandoned by you-don’t take her friends and family and support system too.

NEVER (I mean this…NEVER) bad-mouth their mother in front of your kids-no matter what she does. This is horribly, incredibly hard to do, because you want the kids to understand what you’re doing and why…but if you do bad-mouth their mother, the kids will be mad at YOU not at HER for how she behaved. On the other hand, if you do you best to uplift and promote their mom to the kids, they will remember that you always spoke well of her and made it not seem like a sin for them to love their own mother. This is important, Tony!! As the kids grow older, they will understand more and more and more; in fact, it never ceases to amaze me when my kids tell me what they understand or how they feel about what happened, because they get it and they came to that conclusion on their own.

BTW, recruiting can take less obvious forms than talking to friends and relatives and kids, too. Recruiting can also be going to the church…to the service she likes (“because you like it too!”) so that she has no spiritual home. Recruiting can be putting out the false façade of being a pillar of the community and beating her behind closed doors so no one will believe her. Recruiting can be talking to all the teachers at the kids’ school about her and what she did. Do you catch the theme here? Recruiting is when you remove, deny, eliminate or “confiscate” her support.

Now, you may wonder, “Why should I let her lie to her parents so that they support her divorcing me?? She needs to have a little LESS support so she’ll come to her senses!” I can honestly say that I do wish friends and families were a little more courageous and stood up to their loved ones when they are clearly wrong; however, everyone deserves and NEEDS to have a family that loves them and accepts them as they are. If you interfere with her family, she will most likely see that as you interfering with someone loving her and accepting her…and she already associates you with lack of love, so don’t go there.

2) Blaming her for your marital issues-“you” statements are devastating.
When you blame her for the issues your marriage is having, there are two things going on: you are looking externally for fault, and you are not looking internally at how you contributed. Now, it would be quite easy for me to say, “I’m divorced because my exH was and abusive, mentally ill sex addict” but then I would be assigning blame externally rather than looking internally at how I contributed. My exH MAY BE all those things, but that has nothing to do with me, nor does it come close to solving our marital issues, and it certainly inhibits (if not prevents) reconciliation! Blaming is fear to face yourself. Blame is an accusation, condemnation, or criticism of someone else. Blame is holding another person responsible for you, your feelings, or the situation. Blame is very, VERY destructive and cuts to the bone-especially when someone is really trying hard and still gets the guilt job. Ultimately, though, blame is a defense mechanism to avoid looking at yourself and admitting what YOU did wrong!

In my instance, I did several things wrong in my marriage. I was codependent and held myself responsible to “make him happy” and “not make him angry” and “keep the peace” etc. I tried to control my exH’s acting out in his sexual addiction-I snooped, I was suspicious, I yelled, I accused, etc. in hopes that he would not do it! I was angry and expressed my anger too aggressively and inappropriately. I stuffed my anger until it exploded. I was very, VERY critical and rarely if ever appreciative and admiring (although in my feelings I admired so many things about him-I just never voiced them). Especially toward the end, I made the conscious choice to be just as hurtful and cruel and wounding to him as he was to me, because I got sick of taking it from him. I nagged, nagged, nagged. I did not let him be responsible for his own choices. I was demanding; I was clingy; I was tired and crabby all the time. I made no effort to be attractive. I allowed him to treat me poorly, and I allowed him to trample all of my boundaries.

My point here is not to have a litany of what a loser CJ is, but rather to point out that I got real with myself. My exH may have had his problems, but they are his to deal with-I had problems of my own that * I * had to deal with! If I had blamed him, none of my own issues would have been addressed or changed.

Furthermore, as a woman whose husband was a blamer, I felt HORRIBLE guilt and an unending burden to fix everything and make it right…and I couldn’t. Part of my heart actually believed it was my fault that he went out looking for affairs. Part of my Self was diminished every time I took the blame for one of his or our issues. It felt like carrying a millstone around my neck, and every time that stone felt a little lighter, he would add more weight to it. My self-esteem was demolished and my own self-image was tarnished. Also, speaking as a Feeler person (INFP), each blaming statement felt like a scourge-there’s a little whip and cut in my heart every time I’m blamed for something that’s not my responsibility, and eventually all those little cuts add up to a ground-up heart. That’s the price that your “feeler” loved one pays when you blame them rather than taking personal responsibility.

There is more to come, but for now, this is a lot to digest and I'm going to end here. I hope this stimulates some thoughts, questions, and understanding--and this evening I will post more about Penalties and see if I can respond to what you wrote too!!

CJ

Wow CJ. Pretty cool, and extensive, advise. We can all relate so well to specifics others are going through. Perhaps a little advice for me, a simple, hard-working guy, well devoted to his family (wife and children). Yet one whose wife is intent on leaving regardless.

Java - be cool and leave the vindication to a higher power. Your job is to love, whatever that calls you to do - just do it. Life's complexities are just that... complex. The simpler we can break things down, the easier it is to deal / manage matters. Best of luck. But, remember, others have free will also. And, they will exercise it, not necessarily to your liking. Keep it simple.

Meanwhile, 2P2 here has a wife that leaves and does not come home until really late hourse / early mornings as often as possible. She comes home very late/early morning puts the key into the lock and gently (and softly) opens the door like unto a thief who does not want to be heard or caught. As long as she is not caught, she can effectively deny (hide) what is happening.

She is living the single life while still (legally) married. We just saw attorneys this week and have gotten the ball rolling down that horrific path. Everyone is against this, but hey, comes back to choice... once the heart is haredened it is gone.

Feeling she is being (extremely) unfaithful to me, I feel like going out there and being more unfaithful. The reward I get for working hard to allow her to be a SAHM, is this: certain devastation (underlying details not important).

Sorry, not trying to make this about me, but keeping it simple is hard to do. The wisest of men have tried and failed. To us, it can be the only thing that secures our survival.

Hard at work - soft at play. Truly confused, all the time.

Incidentally, why is it some women are not able to reconcile? I am told, once a woman has made up her mind, it is done... there is no turning back. For a spouse that has been unfaithful, can there be so much guilt that it would prevent reconciliation? Can they forgive themselves and actually repent - have remorse and regret, and actually go on?

Yikes. Life is way too complicated. Who says it makes sense. Whose trying to make sense of it? School me -

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> In my instance, I did several things wrong in my marriage. I was codependent and held myself responsible to “make him happy” and “not make him angry” and “keep the peace” etc. I tried to control my exH’s acting out in his sexual addiction-I snooped, I was suspicious, I yelled, I accused, etc. in hopes that he would not do it! I was angry and expressed my anger too aggressively and inappropriately. I stuffed my anger until it exploded. I was very, VERY critical and rarely if ever appreciative and admiring (although in my feelings I admired so many things about him-I just never voiced them). <hr /></blockquote>Boy CJ, this is ME in and out! When I realized this about myself, I fell on my knees so hard & cried to God for mercy & forgiveness! I couldn't stop crying & asking Him to help me change! Why is it us women can be so headstrong sometimes that we are blinded to the things we're doing to hurt our men? Unfortunately, sometimes we have to learn this lesson the hard way. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thinking of you, God bless! PS, did you read my thread & my response to you?

Java - listen to this woman carefully. I'm glad you're taking the steps necessary to really understand your W. God's blessings for you!

You know, I appreciate what CJ is saying and all, but there is a second half to this.

I would like to understand her in person!

She has been gone since 1 Oct 2003 and I have very little contact with her.

So I also ask that you pray for her, like I do, that she can be healed of the hurt, and that I don't hurt her.

It's just so frustrating, because I never tried to hurt her, never wanted to hurt her, yet she tells me she hurts so much when she sees me and can never imagine us back together again.

She has filed for divorce!

I know, God COULD intervene, and I'd like him to. However, I know that we all have free will. I ernestly want to be more sensitive and have more hope. Someday's it's just hard to keep holding on to hope.

Well, since I can't really do anything to fix my marriage, I'll tinker with the cars and fix the washing machine today.

Oh, Step D. called last night and wanted some clothes, so I took them over.

SHE WOULDN'T LET ME COME IN TO SEE MY YD!!!

I was disappointed, but didn't get too upset.

I did feel like I was taken advantage of. At 9PM, I went through her closet here, got what she wanted, drove 20 minutes to the apartment, and then was kept outside the door, not allowed to see YD who was still awake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I did leave a V-Mail for WW letting her know that I was disappointed with SD.

I doubt much will come of it. I left another message today asking to speak with YD.

Pray for me, I'm a little down today.

However, I am enjoying a Gyro and a Michelob Ultra right now. (Usually only one barley pop a day, maybe two on a Saturday or Sunday.)

Tony

Tony,

I have a big old reply for you on your penalty post and the rest of the penalties, but I think not today...or at least not now. I think today you are already bumming a bit so I'll save my post until tomorrow.

For today you have one assignment: do ONE thing that is playful fun. I do not know what playful fun for you, but I enjoy swinging, coloring, going to car shows, and going to dog shows for my own pure enjoyment. I like movies, and some days I pick gooey chick-flicks that no red-blooded male would ever enjoy (like YaYa Sisterhood). I like candlelit bubblebaths with Frank Sinatra in the CD. I like playing with my puppy. These things bring me joy and lift me a bit out of the duldrums.

What activity do you do that brings you joy?? Don't be afraid of joy, Tony. It's okay to be happy for a few brief minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Report back tomorrow (or tonight) on what you did for yourself. So far, I had a homemade peanut butter cookie...still warm! YUM!!!

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2plus2:
 Incidentally, why is it some women are not able to reconcile? ...For a spouse that has been unfaithful, can there be so much guilt that it would prevent reconciliation? Can they forgive themselves and actually repent - have remorse and regret, and actually go on?<hr /></blockquote>Actually, 2p2, this is one of the topics that Java and I are going to get to at a later time...why some spouses are not able to reconcile. However, I will briefly say that it's my experience that often the reason people do not reconcile is pride. They are too proud to admit to themselves or others that the made a mistake, and so they back what they know to be a foolish and impossible decision rather than softening their heart. Eventually, they start to believe their own justifications and just CAN'T reconcile anymore.

On the other hand (OTOH), when a spouse has an affair and is willing to soften their heart and admit they made a mistake, often that marriage has a fairly good opportunity for recovery. Of course the BS also has to soften their heart and admit that they contributed too...but when the WS takes the lead and repents, the BS often has a desire to follow and repair the marriage.

Finally, there are some who just make up their mind and like a pitbull, they just refuse to let go of the jugular. With these people, I think it's a combination of FOO issues/midlife crisis and stubbornness...maybe some mental health/personality disorders. (Shrug)

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Tony,

I have a big old reply for you on your penalty post and the rest of the penalties, but I think not today...or at least not now. I think today you are already bumming a bit so I'll save my post until tomorrow.

For today you have one assignment: do ONE thing that is playful fun. I do not know what playful fun for you, but I enjoy swinging, coloring, going to car shows, and going to dog shows for my own pure enjoyment. I like movies, and some days I pick gooey chick-flicks that no red-blooded male would ever enjoy (like YaYa Sisterhood). I like candlelit bubblebaths with Frank Sinatra in the CD. I like playing with my puppy. These things bring me joy and lift me a bit out of the duldrums.

What activity do you do that brings you joy?? Don't be afraid of joy, Tony. It's okay to be happy for a few brief minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Report back tomorrow (or tonight) on what you did for yourself. So far, I had a homemade peanut butter cookie...still warm! YUM!!!

CJ <hr /></blockquote>CJ,

I really want to be happy. So if you understand MY personality type, I really don't like things hanging up in the air.

I wish I could find joy. Right now, there really is nothing I want to do.

I went for about a 100 mile drive tonight. I like to drive. Played some Dave Matthews and drove.

Sad existance huh?

Tony

CJ et al.

The hardest part of all of this is that there is little I can do.

I feel like I'm not allowed to practice or demonstrate what I'm learning to my W. I know there were many things I did wrong, was insensitive about. However, my intent was never malicious.

What really frustrates me is to read about women who are attracted to men who appear to be complete cads. There is one WW I've read about here who is wandering to a PRISONER!!!

Well, the next court event is 20 April according to papers I got from my lawyer yesterday.

I'm off to church.

I need to work on patience as mine is really wearing thin. I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me occupied <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
I really want to be happy. So if you understand MY personality type, I really don't like things hanging up in the air. ...I wish I could find joy. Right now, there really is nothing I want to do. ...I went for about a 100 mile drive tonight. I like to drive. Played some Dave Matthews and drove.<hr /></blockquote>Java,

Actually I do have a small clue about your ESTJ personality type, since both my ex and my son are ESTJ's. I know with both my men, I need to encourage them to do something fun, because they are very goal-oriented or task-oriented. So with them I try to get them to think of something they enjoy--they complain and whine that there's not anything they like to do--and then they go do whatever it is and have a pretty good time!

I'm glad you took a drive. Like you, I enjoy just driving a lot. Somehow it's soothing and comfortable, and I can usually think pretty clearly--I think the rhythm of the tires makes it easier for my Thinker tendencies to come out. Anyway, I also enjoy the scenery and knowing where the roads go, etc. Some nights, I just get on the freeway and DRIVE--other nights, I pick a road I haven't been on before and say, "I'm gonna see where this leads." I've found TONS of great shortcuts across Denver by doing that!

Anyway, I know what it's like to live alone and have things hanging up in the air. In some ways, having things undecided is even worse than just having it over with, and yes, in a way once a divorce is final there's the relief of knowing where you stand vs. being in limbo-land. Limbo-land always drove me nuts (well, nuttier--I was nuts before limbo-land! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). OTOH, in limbo-land there's hope and after the divorce is final it's less hopeful.

However, while I was in limbo-land, one of the things that I found myself doing was that I was afraid to be happy. Somehow it seems wrong or sacreligious or something to be happy while I was abandoned by my spouse. Does that make any sense? Almost like a person in mourning is "supposed" to act all sad and gloomy for a respectful period of time, I thought that if I felt joy it would somehow be disrespectful of the huge loss of my marriage.

This is why I encourage people to try a little fun. It feels odd to have fun and be happy when so much time has been spent feeling sad, lonely, and blue. It feels "wrong" to feel joy when your husband/wife is gone!! But I believe God wants us to be happy and feel joy, so let yourself feel a little bit of happiness and enjoyment. Practice some of the things that you used to just LIKE so much. Now what is fun to you is probably not fun to me...but if it makes your heart sings, that's what I'm talking about!

Now, Tony, just so you know, I won't leave you hanging. I have that big old post ready to go, and I'll put it up in just a minute.

Chin up, my brother.

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 The hardest part of all of this is that there is little I can do.

I feel like I'm not allowed to practice or demonstrate what I'm learning to my W. I know there were many things I did wrong, was insensitive about. However, my intent was never malicious.<hr /></blockquote>Java, did you realize that most of what you are learning is for you to practice on yourself, to make you the man God intended you to be? People often get the wrong idea that Plan A is being a doormat doing everything their spouse wants in order to meet the spouse's needs. Nope. Plan A is finding out who JAVA is, finding out the kind of man JAVA has the potential to be, finding out the kind of husband and father God intended you to be, and then BEING THAT MAN.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as we are going through the Penalty chapter here, your thought is to figure out what penalties you did (and it sounds like most of them) and then GO TELL HER you're sorry and you've changed. Right? Nope. The purpose of the Penalty chapter is all about YOU...getting honest with yourself and admitting to yourself that you actually did participate in the EA and break up. It's about seeking out within you, the areas that you need to work on and then WORKING ON THEM. It's not about telling her or somehow convincing her that you've changed, because frankly that's not a change--that's more of the same of being the "in control" "impatient" old Java.

I'm trying not to be too harsh here, but the work that needs to be done is not to prove to her...it's to transform you into the man you have the potential to be, and then if she is ready, she will SEE the difference just by the way you treat her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What really frustrates me is to read about women who are attracted to men who appear to be complete cads. There is one WW I've read about here who is wandering to a PRISONER!!!<hr /></blockquote>Haha! Well I'm going to giggle. I can't tell you how many times I heard this from my ex: "Gee what's your problem? I'm not so bad. After all, it's not like I go out drinking every night, come home drunk and beat you--or blow all our money on drugs and getting high! It's not like I'm a convict or anything." Can you believe it? He didn't go out drinking, and he didn't do drugs...that's true...but he DID have 13 affairs, was a sex addict who wouldn't even try recovery, and had a mental illness he would not deal with!

See, he spent so much time dwelling on how he WASN'T such a bad guy, that he could never quite soften his heart to see where he WAS having trouble. Now, I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist, but I do know that if he had worked on those issues, he really wasn't such a bad guy and I think the marriage and family could have chosen to stay together. Problem is, he would have had to admit it, and it probably would have been a lifelong struggle and required lifelong work.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well, the next court event is 20 April according to papers I got from my lawyer yesterday. I'm off to church. I need to work on patience as mine is really wearing thin. I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me occupied. <hr /></blockquote>Let me tell you a cute story. For the longest time I used to pray to God for patience, and then I got sick of it. I realized that if I prayed for patience, He would send me situations that required it. So I decided to say, "God, I do not pray for any more patience. I believe I understand patience and I would prefer to not have to be patient any longer. Could you please teach me another lesson? Thank you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Aren't I funny? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

April 20th is my birthday. Hmmmm...

CJ

CJ,

I really do hear what you are saying, but sometimes I think we are talking apples and oranges.

I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic.

You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey.

So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???

I'm certainly not perfect, but I AM willing to learn.

I have ALWAYS been willing to learn and have acknowleged to W that we speak different languages, have different ideas about romance.

I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted.

She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings.

Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.

I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)

Well, I just re-wired the stereo in the T-Bird. The "clown" that previously owned the car just threw it in there. Hey, even my power antenna sorta works now, but it is very slow going up.

It's a sunny day, so I think I'll go for another drive before evening services.

Tony

CJ,

Can you tell me when the next lesson will be?

I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset.

She says I have too many expectation. ( We were talking about me seeing our daughter. )

She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help.

I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. I dunno, I'm secondguessing everything I say. W brought up help and I said I was willing to help.

Probably sounds like I'm blaming her, and I guess in a way I was.

In hindsight, the best thing to say was that it must be tough, but you will figure out the right thing to do.

Why doesn't the Holy Spirit give me these words during the conversation and not an hour later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Well, on the plus side, 6 months ago, these words wouldn't even have been in my mind, so there is some progress.

I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul.

So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!

There I go again, focusing soley on the destination and not "enjoying" the journey.

Well, to be honest, this is not a fun journey and sometimes I want to wring James' neck. I really don't see the joy in my trials right now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />James 1:2-8


Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.<hr /></blockquote>Tony

One more thing. I sent this in an e-mail to another MB'er, but I wanted to post my "logic" here as well:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally E-Mailed by jSC

One more thing!

Thoughts I had folding laundry.

1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them.
2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.

Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion)
Isn't it about time I came to this conclusion, it only took either 6 months since she moved out or 10+ years that I've known her.

Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings.

Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. <-- I can't believe I spelled this right, the spell checker did not complain, LOL

Does God make Andro for the soul?

Tony
<hr /></blockquote>

Well,

I also figure out one way to get there.

SHUT MY MOUTH!!!

At least that way, I won't overpower her with logic. Now how do I keep my mouth shut AND get her to open up and begin to share with me what she is feeling?

I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.

Listen right!

Of course there is that pesky matter of patience. Now that I've figured out these things, I want to put them into practice.

Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W.

Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed.

I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL

Tony

Good evening, Tony/Java.

Were you on-call? Here in Colorado it was sunny, warm, and beautiful, and I love living in the west because of days like this. BTW, off-topic a little, I wish all of you folks out there in MB-Land could see a Colorado day like this. It’s so clear and the sky is so blue…it just snowed two days ago, so the mountains are dressed in a delicate white. Seriously, days like this I just thank God that I live in a place where I have the privilege of seeing some of the most beautiful creation in the world—God’s handiwork is just SO evident in the mountains!

Well, let’s take a moment to sip some coffee and get started, shall we?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I’ve read and pondered your “Penalties” Tony, and I have one overall, general comment. As I was reading, I got the general feeling that almost all of the penalty answers were, “Guilty, but…”. Is this the message you were intending to get across, or were you trying to be honest with yourself about yourself and that’s hard? Or were you being honest with yourself yet also explaining how or why you behaved that way? Or were you maybe explaining to yourself whilst also typing “out loud”?

In a very general way, I personally usually do not find that explanations help soften the blow. When I’m hurting, it can maybe turn a gigantic hurt into a medium hurt, but frankly it usually sounds like justification to me, rather than doing any good or feeling any better. From a logical point of view, it sometimes does help to at least see the progression of how you got there—and then my mind sort of says, “Ahh…that’s what happened.” Nonetheless, this is a little bit like a person stabbing someone 3-4 times and then explaining how he or she logically thought the victim was a burglar. “Cool—I can see why you stabbed me—but could you please get me a band aide and an ambulance??” Speaking as a Feeler, render aide to the wounded first and THEN explain it to them.

BTW, just so you know, I just realized something literally as I was typing here. Initially I was going to say, “Speaking as a Feeler, fix it first and THEN…” and I realized that I MYSELF was not taking personal responsibility there. My own words were sort of reflecting that someone else fix my wound, and that’s not healthy. Yep—someone else may assist a lot and like a doctor would give me stitches, but in the end, I’m the one who has to heal, right? The doc can’t heal for me. Same applies here. You may inadvertently hurt your wife, and you have the choice to create an environment in which she can heal or not, but SHE has to do the healing and SHE has to choose to allow restoration. (In other words, if she’s the one who’s wounded, she can choose to forgive and heal it, or she can choose to keep that wound open and deny recovery).

Anyway…let’s get started on the Penalties:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1. Recruiting. … It's competitive, adversarial, taking sides. It may feel like you are stealing someone important to her. Many times, I heard her say she didn't even want me to TALK to her family. She has a great fear that I would try to recruit them.

I did talk to them, but I think I dodged actually recruiting them. I said I understood that they needed to be there for L, and I just wanted them to know that I was sorry for hurting her, that I didn't really understand what I had done, but never wanted to hurt her, nor did I realize that I was so insensitive.

However, even that upset her, …so I try to avoid her family as much as possible.<hr /></blockquote>Tony, it sounds like that doesn’t make sense to you. Here’s why that upset her. She established a boundary and said, “My boundary is around my family. Do not cross this boundary” and you did. Without saying a word, this says to her that you do not respect the limits and restrictions that she says she needs. Even though your words to her family were gentle and understanding, the action itself communicated that you did not care about what limits she said she needed, and you trampled all over her limit. A few options that might have worked better would be “I hear you saying you don’t want me to even talk to your family, but I would like them to know that I realize they are going to be there for you, and all these years I did not understand how much I was hurting you 1) HOWEVER, since your limit is not to talk to them, I will respect your wishes. Would it be okay if I write to them?” or 2) HOWEVER, I will respect your wishes because getting understanding from you is much more important than getting understanding from them.” Or 3) HOWEVER, if you need me to not talk to your family in order to have some space from me, I will respect it.”

Do you see, Tony?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 2. Blaming Well that's hard not to do. I mean she went out and had at least an EA if not more. She didn't tell me in a way I understood how she felt… But, since I can only fix myself, I should only blame myself. This one is really the hardest to overcome for me, because if I think too much about what has happened, then I really think divorce is the right answer. …This is one of my daily prayers, that I can really forgive her, and not hold this against her. <hr /></blockquote>You know, you are right about one thing. It really is hard to not blame. It’s so much easier to say, “Well, since my spouse had an affair and has mental health issues and unresolved FOO issues from her past and refuses to address them, it’s not MY FAULT.” However, we are commanded to live in faith, and faith makes things POSSIBLE, not EASY. We have to face the tough facts here.

I suspect you may not want to understand this right now, but your wife had an EA for a reason. This isn’t the blame game, Tony, it’s reality. I had a temptation to have an affair once, and at the time I felt AWFUL about it—and now I think it happened so I could at least sympathize with the WS’s and not think of them as selfish monsters. My H at the time had moved out of state and was living with his OW and her 4 kids. For YEARS prior to that, my H had blamed me for all that was wrong with the family, the kids, and our lives…he called me names, gave me the silent treatment to punish me, was demanding and controlling, and at times he was abusive. Now, I’m not blaming—I’m telling you all this because I am a VERY, VERY monogamous person and my mind and desire did not wander from him…and yet my head was really down on myself and I truly believed most of his blame and criticism. Along came a fella—yep a man—who told me he thought I was smart and had a great sense of humor and was fun to talk to. Who, ME?? * I * was smart? You’ve got to be kidding! I couldn’t believe it that someone actually enjoyed my company and thought I had something to contribute. When we would talk or write, he spoke to me as if I was intelligent and interesting—my H at the time spoke to me like he could not beeeeeelieeeeeeve how stupid I was, I never used ANY common sense, and I was boring and mind-numbing. Thank God I realized in time where I was heading if I kept talking to that man, but nonetheless I am a VERY faithful person and even * I * almost fell for it.

My point here Tony is that blame is usually one tactic that people take in order to avoid looking at themselves. I didn’t realize until after this fella spoke to me, how my H was speaking to me –or- (more importantly) how I was speaking to him. We had fallen into the habit of speaking to each other critically and judgmentally, and probably without meaning to, had ended up hurting each other and falling out of love. Sound familiar?

Tony, you can’t blame her for her EA weakness, because part of what crumbled the foundation was you. Let me guess (and I admit…I am guessing here): long hours working—career was IMPORTANT after all; little or no time alone together having fun; maybe kids take away even more time; when you were together, it was criticizing and arguing, not fun and playing; she didn’t want to do things with you, and you didn’t want to do things with her; she did not admire you so you did not appreciate her; etc. Am I on the right track??

As you think of blame and forgiveness, please keep your focus purely and exclusively on you and how you contributed. She may have done XYZ and chosen ABC, but there were ways that you added fuel to the fire—maybe inadvertently. And btw, I’m not trying to make you feel bad here—I am confident you feel bad already. What I AM trying to do is to take a look at yourself and be honest with yourself and maybe get a glimpse of how it looks through Feeler-colored glasses. My exH actually DID some things and CHOSE some things that contributed to the ending of our marriage, but those are his bags to carry. My job—and YOUR job—is to look at my own self, repent and repair for the things I did, and learn to do better. I can’t “make” him get better, but I can focus on myself and on what God needs to change in me. Hey, maybe we will NEVER, EVER get back together (in fact, I doubt it at this time), but that does not preclude me from becoming a better woman, nor does it give me reason to not become the woman God intended me to be. God gave me the potential to be a warm, wonderful, mature woman, and that’s who I should become whether I’m with him or not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 3. Critical Spirit Well, I'm guilty here too. I mentioned in another thread about how I tend to be critical…Criticism if overdone makes anyone feel bad, and since I believe W to be an INFP, criticism is even more dangerous. <hr /></blockquote>You know, since my other replies have been so long, I think I’ll keep this one as short as I can. You have no idea how much criticism can harm an INFP. Now as an INFP, I’m not saying we can’t take constructive criticism, but my own tendency is to take a criticism PERSONALLY. Thus, when I try really hard to make a tasty roast dinner and overcook the roast just a little (it’s still tasty and edible but a little dry), a comment about how dry the roast is could be dangerous.

See if you can see the distinction:

“Oh, honey, that was a good dinner. The roast is a little more dry than I personally prefer, but that gravy you made just moistens it right up and gives it the best flavor!”

“Oh, honey, that was a good dinner, but the roast was too dry.”

“Oh, honey, good god. How hard is it to watch the clock and get the roast out at the right time so it doesn’t dry out?”

In the instance where a criticism is requested, or if a criticism is necessary for open and honest communication, try to remember before you say it that your wife is a delicate butterfly and you are a buffalo about to throw a small pebble at her. If you toss it gently, it may knock her over but not rip through her wing—but if you throw it with any force at all—you’re a buffalo! It will rip through her like she’s not even there! My guess is that the difference of force to a buffalo is pretty undetectable—but the difference of force to the butterfly is ENORMOUS.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 4. Being impatient. W mentioned many times that I didn't give her enough space. Gee, she has her own apartment, etc. and she still felt like she didn't have enough space. Well, my desire to "fix" the problem certainly overrode all the advice about being patient.

Besides patience is one of the fruits of the spirit, so if I'm acting impatiently, then I'm probably not in the right frame of mind or I'm not responding to the Holy Spirit, but the unHoly Spirit. <hr /></blockquote>Well, my brother Tony, “space” does not mean cubic inches of unfilled air between us. “Space” means the freedom to think her own thoughts and be the woman she is, in an environment that is safe and supportive. You two could live with each other and have tons of “space” or you could live states apart and still not have enough “space.” It has to do with feeling squelched and controlled, and it has to do with feeling like she’s not allowed to make decisions for herself or BE herself.

Let me give you a concrete example. I live with my children and I have plenty of space with them. I can be a crazy, funny, happy-go-lucky person with them, and if I goof up they laugh and say “oh well!” I feel completely safe to be myself and I won’t be ridiculed. I make decisions about our lives and about myself, and even when my kids disagree with me, they ask me if I can explain my reasoning and then say, “I disagree but I understand why you feel that way.” I do NOT live with my exH and have not for about 2 years now. I can not be who I am with him, because if I make one mistake, he believes he has the right and duty to chastise me in front of everyone. If I goof up, I am teased for days. When I make decisions about my life or the kids’ lives, he second-guesses me and belittles my decision. If we disagree, I am forced to agree with him or else… See, I don’t live with the man, but I have no space from him. (Plus he has no desire to “fix” things between us, so it’s quite different from your situation).

Tony, being patient is important because it communicates several things: 1) I’m willing to let you call the shots. 2) We can work on YOUR timeframe not mine. 3) I will let you control things in this regard. 4) You are valuable enough to wait for. 5) I do not need instant gratification. 6) You have some say in your own life.

I bet you didn’t know it said all that, did ya??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 5. Setting a Time Frame Well, I sorta did this saying how long I wanted to plan A before moving to a plan B. But I don't think I expressed this to her. However, setting a time frame does little for my mind and soul.<hr /></blockquote>The “setting a time frame” penalty is a little more like: “You should trust me by now. It’s been long enough. Now you’re just punishing me,” or “You should have been able to find yourself by now. How much longer do you need, for crying out loud?” or “You have until next week and then I divorcing you.” It’s inflicting YOUR timing onto your partner. In this penalty, the usual thing that most men miss or misunderstand is that the greater the hurt, the longer the time it takes to heal. In other words, if you were to make the conscientious decision today to stop hurting her and give her time to heal, it might take a few months or a year of NOT BEING HURT. If you accidentally add hurt along the way, it can be a setback. Trust is a major issue—the relationship needs security.

May I be completely blunt here? I wish my exH had any kind of desire to stop hurting me and give me the time I need to heal. Your wife may not know it, but she’s SO LUCKY—you want to stop, you just don’t understand what you’re doing. So, if she says she needs space and time, give her space and time. The way I look at it, this is a marriage for life, right? If people live to 80 and were married when they’re 20, that means a 60 YEAR INVESTMENT. What’s a few months or even a year to let her know she’s loved and give her time to heal?

By the same token, I wanted to commend you for even considering a time frame for your Plan A and Plan B. At the time, I never even thought to consider a time frame, and before I knew it years had gone by. It was one of my regrets, that I didn’t decide within myself what was right and set a limit. So good for you that you have established that time frame! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 6. Displaying Affection No opportunity. I've not touched W much at all since Sep 6th. I may have touched her shoulder, but certainly no hugs, no kisses, nothing. I'm sure that would make her uncomfortable. <hr /></blockquote>Okay—so since this does not seem to be a penalty you are committing, for now let’s go past it. I will comment that I notice it is an issue for you, but that’s another post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 7. Overkilling Yes, when I started doing the things she said she wanted me to do, she said it annoyed her because it was like "Why Now?"

Well, I wanted to show her what I was capable of doing. However, to my own credit, when she said it bothered her, I stopped. So I can be sensitive if I understand how she feels, and to be honest, I was following the advice of Steve Harley who counseled me to see what I could do. <hr /></blockquote>Tony do you see something? It sounds to me as if you immediately were defending why it was okay for you to do this penalty…Steve Harley told you to. Just consider that for a bit and see what you think.

She asked you for a long time to please bring her flowers or something, and you blew her off and didn’t do it. It took too much time, cost too much money, etc. But NOT doing those little things that she clearly told you out loud, you communicated that she was not important—what she needed was not important. So finally, she gave up. In her mind, if she wasn’t important to you, then she’d go somewhere where she WAS important. THEN you started to do the things that she asked and asked and asked you to do, and she thought, “You had your chance buddy and you dismissed me. Why should I take your flowers now? When I needed them, you told me tough!” Why now?? Why didn’t you do this when she needed it for a pick-me-up or encouragement or reassurance? Because you didn’t care. So why should she care now? That door to her heart is closed now, and she wanted to give you the key and leave it open, but didn’t care so now it’s LOCKED!!

I’m sorry, my friend. I know this is harsh, but part of the process here is being honest and not avoiding what is really happening.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8. Underestimating Hurt Guilty, since I'm not a feeling kinda guy, I have no idea how much she hurts. In my defense, I'd like to say if I did know she was hurting months or years before she moved out, I would have been more than willing to address those things.

I underestimated her hurt during our entire relationship. I had no idea. …

Whoops, sounds like I'm blaming her. No, not really…well, I still think I might have had a better chance at understand how she felt if we had this time together on a daily basis. <hr /></blockquote>and <blockquote>quote:<hr /> 9. Boundaries, I don't even know if I could express her boundaries. If I don't know them, it's hard for me to respect them, now isn't it? <hr /></blockquote>You know, at times I wonder if I should even point out what I see or hear. I’m trying really hard to be sensitive here, but it just feels to me as if over and over again she TOLD you and even used her voice to say things out loud, and yet you chose to ignore it or dismiss it or put it out of your mind—and then you say, “She never said anything!!!”

Not to pile it on, but she gave you a LOT of info!! She told you not to talk to her family, and you disrespected her boundary and her. You were critical and she asked you to stop and you disrespected her way of doing things. You were impatient and wanting things to hurry up to your schedule, and she asked you to give her some “space” and you disrespected her time frame and her. She did not want you to display affection and had to move away from you so that you wouldn’t hug or kiss her, and you sure resent that she took that away from you. She told you she needed flowers (or whatever it was) and you ignored her and didn’t care—and then when she gave up and locked that door…THEN you started to give her what she needed because you were feeling the loss. When it was only HER feeling the pain, you didn’t care. She asked for the flowers and you disrespected her need. Even now she has told you that she’s not sure if she could ever re-commit to the marriage again, and you are pushing for DAILY TIME TOGETHER to prove how much you’ve changed!!

OUCH. I’m so sorry to have to say these things to you. I know today is already a hurting day for you so I’m going to stop. But I pray that you’ll take a moment and soften your heart and put your defenses down and consider before God if this is what He was trying to say to you today. The reason we are studying penalties here is to INVESTIGATE and find out what it was that caused us to lose yardage in our marriages, remember? We can’t get a handle on the penalty if we don’t admit that we do it. Tony, I know she never hit you over the head with a frypan to get your attention and tell you she was hurting (a much easier sign to read) but she DID try!

I think a big part of the puzzle here is that your wife feels invalidated—she’s not allowed to be a unique person complete with needs and wants that she deserves to have met too. Invalidation occurs when you talk to her like a child, flare up in jealousy, rage at her, restrict her freedom…pout, sulk, withdraw, or give her “the silent treatment.”

Rather than defending yourself and why you were right to commit these penalties, listen to your wife’s pain and hear with your heart. Ask her if she would be willing to list the ways you have hurt her, neglected her, abused her, and how she felt unappreciated and unloved. She probably won’t be willing to make the list, but if she did, she’d be giving you a HUGE, HUGE gift!! It would a list that would itemize for you where you would need to do personal work to make things right with her.

Well, my friend, I have spent almost all day with you. Now, I’m going to give myself a break and think on lighter things (like a peanut butter cookie and some cold milk). Please consider what I’ve said and let me know what you decide.

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

CJ,

I was just saying why I did what I did, not that what I did was right.

You did want to hear the logic that drove my actions, right?

You have done an excellent job of telling me what I did wrong.

The hard part is how do I change those things? You've read my writings before, even what happened tonight. So how do I realize BEFORE I do one of these "horrible" things not to do them.

My "logic" tells me they are not wrong, so I need new logic, an yes I'm impatient to have it now.

I don't see in anything I've read HOW to reprogram myself for these situations.

For example, you mentioned that I was competing with SD. I never thought of it that way, but yes there was an element of that. I felt that she put SD before me, even after talking about this and we both agreed that we had to put each other before any other person on earth, including our children, as we would be with each other after the children were gone.

Anyway, so HOW do I do these things, and I am SERIOUS. It is obvious that I just don't get it, and I have not yet found how to make these changes. You are asking me to change things that:

a) I don't truely understand.
b) That I don't truely realize I do.
c) That I've done for 38 years give or take.

I'm not saying I'm unwilling. What I'm saying is, I don't know how.

I've been telling myself for 6 months to consider her feelings. I'm still as oblivious as ever.

I appreciate the feedback on the feelings and I do believe you are right on. I've prayed, tried to work with Steve Harley, I'm working with a local therapist, I've been to see my pastor, asked my one true friend to role play with me. (he is dubious, BTW.)

So I've not found the way to get there yet.

I don't want this to sound like I don't believe you, because I do. The message I'd like you to take away from this is I don't know how to change, how to suspend my heavy reliance on logic.

I'll read your message again in a few hours. I just got up in the night and checked. So this is my first look at what you wrote while in my PJ's and without my glasses, LOL

Tony

[ March 08, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Rather than defending yourself and why you were right to commit these penalties, listen to your wife’s pain and hear with your heart. Ask her if she would be willing to list the ways you have hurt her, neglected her, abused her, and how she felt unappreciated and unloved. She probably won’t be willing to make the list, but if she did, she’d be giving you a HUGE, HUGE gift!! It would a list that would itemize for you where you would need to do personal work to make things right with her. <hr /></blockquote>I already have, months ago, back in September before she even left, and for some time after she left, and she is not willing, as you suggested.

Tony

[ March 08, 2004, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

Tony,

First the image of you in your PJs reading without your glasses on is hilarious. Do you hold the flat screen out at arm's length to read it? heehee. Oh the joys of growing older!

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Tony,

First the image of you in your PJs reading without your glasses on is hilarious. Do you hold the flat screen out at arm's length to read it? heehee. Oh the joys of growing older!

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??

CJ <hr /></blockquote>CJ,

First, I wasn't saying I wanted to give up being a thinker, but rather know when and how to be a feeler when it is more appropriate to focus on those things.

Like I said, thinking is great for my job, so I don't really want to lose those talents.

Being a thinker, almost exclusively, has destroyed or nearly destroyed every one of my relationships. I'm not even that close with my mother.

So I'm not saying I want to perform a wholesale overhaul of my personality. Rather, I just want to be able to appreciate and understand the feeler.

I guess neither of us can sleep. I do have my glasses on now, and no I don't own a flat screen. (I'm too cheap!)

Ok, why can't I sleep? Because I'm a thinker, and there are a million thoughts running through my head right now.

So, not to dismiss what you are saying, but I've just realized something. It's a parallel event in my life, but it provides me with some insight.

You know I went on a couple of drives this weekend. Actually three, I went for a drive Friday night as well after SD wouldn't let me see YD.

What I just noticed this morning is that when I drive just to drive, I don't get frustrated. Now maybe it is because there isn't much traffic as I like to do these things on the weekend. However, when I do have to be somewhere, and before you say just leave earlier, it's almost impossible to leave for a customer site BEFORE the pager goes off. So yes, I'm talking about a trip in response to a page and the time pressure to arrive, meeting a response window. I get stressed big time when there is a set destination and time target.

Ok, what does that mean? It means I'm probably not at my best, not my most attractive when I'm under that kind of pressure.

So I go back to James.

How do I find the joy in these trials?

Ironically, it seems to me all of this stuff is focused on the destination. Dr Harley's books focus on you stopping LB's, but nothing about HOW to get there.

Same thing with the understanding the mind of a woman book. Not a single thing that helps me understand the mind of a woman. A lot of rationale why it is important. But it says become more Christlike, and yet no plan on how to do that either.

Combine this with either my inability to pay attention to, or the unwillingness of the Holy Spirit to show me the way at this time and I'm frustrated.

(And why do I have more questions than answers?)

Ok, I want to sleep now for a couple of more hours. I'm throwing some laundry in the dryer to get it 1/2 dry and will finish it when I get up for real to shower etc.

While I can function on 4 hours of sleep. I'd like a couple more...

Tony

[ March 08, 2004, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Tony,

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??

CJ <hr /></blockquote>It would probably be easier if I made a list of what I did right. It seems I did everything wrong.

A) I kept a good job the whole time
B) I didn't drink away my paycheck
C) I didn't have any affairs
D) I didn't beat the wife or kiddos

Ok, that about covers it. I did everything else wrong. Or at least I feel that way.

CJ, I know what you are doing and I do appreciate it. I've been at this step ONE for 6+ months.

I'd really like to move to a new step.

Tony

Well, I've had a frustrating day at work, no real progress in 6 months of trying to win my wife back.

Nor am I happy with my progress either. In fact, I'm still impatient.

So I'm going to work out and try to sweat out some of this frustration.

Will someone either provide me with the solution or just solve all of these problems for me so I can have a happy, healthy reunited family and marriage.

Maybe if I do 50 pushups everytime I get frustrated about the destruction of my marriage and my inability to win my wife back (or even to understand her) I'll have some huge arms or learn not to be so frustrated, LOL

I really am seeking God's will and his plan in all of this. I just find it frustrating that I have failed so miserably up to this point.

I am not used to failure!

Tony

Greetings my struggling brother.

I have a few quick things to let you know:
#1 – When I was young, I used to be a gymnast, and I fell off the balance beam and really hurt my back. Today it’s aching, so when my back hurts, I don’t think as clearly, quickly, or logically. Please give me a little bit of a break today, okay??

#2 – When you write over and over again about wanting microwave results and wanting immediate time with her and being frustrated because she won’t even consider reconciliation, I think you are really pushing for your own way RIGHT NOW, and I feel very pressured. It’s somewhat similar to the feeling of one person with a life jacket and everyone else who doesn’t have one clinging to them and pulling them under. So, whilst I understand your desperation and extreme anxiety, I’m going to ask you to back off a little—-and to me, that means mellow out the tone of your posts from a command or requirement for instantaneous results to recognizing that it’s going to take time…that your wife may have her mind made up…and that while I may help you to understand better, it is conceivable it may not save your marriage.

Now, let’s get down to the meat of some of your posts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> …I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic. …You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey. …So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???<hr /></blockquote>As you know, I do not consider being driven by logic a crime—-any more than I consider it a crime to be driven by emotions. It is not “wrong” just different. BUT…if I could put 2 and 2 together, are you trying to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’m the one who had an affair here! All I did was be insensitive”? Is that close?

Tony, I think that’s your heart talking—-you’re saying stuff out of hurt there, and so I’m going to choose to bypass the glaring LB-style of this. You are HURT so you are doing a little hurting back by flinging the affair out there. It’s understandable, but that kind of verbal zing is JUST the kind of thing that caused little hurts over the years that added up to huge hurts.

I understand that you are goal-oriented, but a logical fella like you should understand that if you do step one, skip steps two and three, and do only step four to get to the goal quicker, then the integrity of the goal is compromised. So, you are here: “90% thinking with my head/10% feeling with my heart” and you’d like to be here: “70% thinking with my head /30% feeling with my heart.” How do you go from one place to the other? What might be some logical steps to take? What might be some exercises you could do to get more in touch with your feelings and more in touch with empathy?

Speaking for myself, I was about 90% Feeler/10% Thinker and I wanted to be more Thinker, so I did training exercises to TEACH myself to think more logically. I made lists; I wrote down goals and broke them down into steps to get there; I read about philosophy and quantum physics to see if I could follow the thought and logic; etc. As much as possible, I tried to engage my MIND in order to grow that muscle. You do the same thing here but in reverse, Tony. Every day, learn a new word for a feeling and learn about that feeling. If you have more emotional vocabulary than “angry, frustrated, pissed, and happy” you will be better able to identify when you do have a feeling. Write down emotional goals and break them down into steps to get there—like you want to check in with yourself once each hour and see how you’re feeling AT THAT MOMENT, and you want to do that check in every day for two weeks so you become more aware of your feelings. Read some books about feelings, emotions, etc. and see if you can identify what do you need to do to empathize? Keep a diary of your emotions and when they change, noting date, time of day, and some surrounding circumstances and see if you can see a pattern (for example, I noticed that when I do not get adequate sleep, I tend to be more grouchy, angry, touchy, and improperly sensitive-—whereas when I take care of myself and get good sleep, I’m more able and available to be thoughtful and sympathetic). FINALLY, when I noticed myself getting into an emotional whirlwind (as is my nature) I just recognized that I needed to take some time to let the whirlwind die down and then I’d be able to THINK—-you may need to do something similar. When you get into a particularly logical mode from work, you may need some time to let the logic-mode subside and re-engage your feelings.

As to why you wife will not even consider reconciliation, you know each INFP woman is different, but my guess would be that she’s afraid to try again and have it not work out. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again—-so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted. …She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings. …Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm…asking her to tell you and show you what she wants it the rough equivalent of her saying to you, “Explain to me your exact thought processes on every decision and choice you’ve made today—-including data consider, the model used, and the result.” Okay, at first you might be able to do it because it would be kind of fun to share your Thinker moments with your wife—-but after a few weeks or months of it, you’d get tired. Same here. At some point, if you were sharing your data gathered, model used, and calculation results, you might hope that your wife would catch on and start at least seeing the pattern to HOW you think—and she probably figures that if she explained to you what to say and what to do, that eventually you would start to catch on to how she feels. Unfortunately, Feelers take different data into consideration in almost every instance, so that Thinkers can rarely if ever make a static model from which they can always (or even USUALLY) reach the correct conclusion. So what happens is that the Thinker puts in the known/obvious facts—-puts it into the “if/then” model that they’ve built, and the Thinker comes to a conclusion; meanwhile the Feeler puts in the known/obvious facts and the intuitively understood truths—-filters it all through intuition and perceptions-—and comes to an entirely different conclusion but wonders what in the world is wrong with the Thinker!! Furthermore, the Feeler often incorrectly assumes that if the Thinker can’t reach the same conclusion and consider all the variables, then the Thinker must not FEEL love or romance or whatever.

BTW, she says she does not have romantic feelings for you because her love bank is empty, and she does not want to rekindle romance for the reasons mentioned above. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again-—so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)<hr /></blockquote>Well, here’s some of your little Thinker logic sticking it’s head out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tony, your arguments and persuasions make a lot of logical sense, but very little emotional sense. To her, the choices are more like:

1. Remain in marriage without change and die from the pain and lose myself completely
2. Get divorced and hurt now, but be free to be myself later
3. Work on marriage and risk my heart and continue to let myself be hurt.

As far as not considering that it hurts you, I would counter with this: for years she did try to communicate in her Feeler way that you were hurting her—-but you are a buffalo and did not even notice what she (the butterfly) was saying. For years you did not seem to consider the hurt that she felt, so now she does not acknowledge the hurt that you feel. Working on the marriage to her means returning to the person with whom she has associated pain and agony and sorrow. Nothing personal my man, but who would WANT to return to that?? In many ways, I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and protecting herself. In many ways, I admire her ability to hurt some now in order to be free and unhurt later. Can you see that as an admirable and compelling trait? Your wife, she is QUITE a strong woman!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> … I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset. …She says I have too many expectations. (We were talking about me seeing our daughter.) … She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help. … I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. <hr /></blockquote>Tony, stop and think a second—-when you called her was it during a time when she told you not to call (as in, it’s inconvenient for her)? Was it later or early or right at a meal time? Did you push her to have a “relationship talk” or did she mildly object to the call and you drove right over her objection? I do not know the circumstances of your call, but these are some typical, representative things that can occur that might upset your wife.

As relates to seeing your D, it would probably be best if you two could have a regular schedule with SOME flexibility. This is good for you and your wife because you can plan your lives, and it is good for your D because she knows when she will be where, and when she will be with which parent. Tony, she NEEDS to have you in her life, so even if your wife hardens her heart and divorces you, do not get depressed and slow down regular time with your daughter. She NEEDS to have a relationship with her father even if her mom does not want to.

HOWEVER, I will mention that just in reading your posts once or twice, I’ve noticed that you stop over and want to see YD, or feel lonely and want to see D. That kind of dropping by and sudden change of schedule only leads to hurt and misunderstanding. If she lets you see YD and D, then you are disrupting her life and disrespecting her schedule, and resentment will build. OTOH, if she doesn’t let you see YD and D, then you are hurt. It’s like you expect her to just bend to your needs and your wavering wishes. So, that’s what she means when she says you have too many expectations.

One thing I TOTALLY understand and empathize with is your wife’s statement about having trouble with SD and having no one to help. She was not trying to manipulate you into helping her-—she was feeling overwhelmed. I don’t know SD’s age, but as the kids get older, there are times when they are just a HANDFUL. When you’re married, you have a partner sharing your life who can take over for a little while when you get overwhelmed. When you’re alone, every situation must be dealt with BY YOU and there is no relief and no reinforcement. Plus, kids are smart as a whip, and when they see a crack or break in mom’s armor, they go right for it and pick, pick, pick. There are times when you just want to cry out to someone: “AARRGGHH!!! I’m doing this alone!! I can’t do this anymore-—I’m exhausted and they won’t let up.” Sometimes there are behavior issues, school issues, friend issues, etc. and it seems like every bit of your energy goes into your kids.

If you say, “Boy that sounds tough-—what can I do?” be prepared to here a pretty snappy response, like “Pay your child support on time, you a$$!” You might want to try REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan, (S)afety. When she says she is having her own problems with SD and she doesn’t have anyone to help, you might say: “I’m so sorry that you are in the position of raising SD alone because of the way I treated you. I bet that’s really hard on you and exhausting. Would it help if I watch the kids one night a week every Wednesday to give you a day off? Whatever YOU decide you need in order to feel supported in this, I will be happy to offer.”

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul. … So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!<hr /></blockquote>OY! Rolling eyes in the way that means “oh brother”. It doesn’t happen that way, and this is part of what I was talking about when I mentioned feeling pressure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them. <hr /></blockquote>Just as her smooshiness appears to you as if she is disregarding/not valuing your reasoning.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.<hr /></blockquote>This sounds dangerously close to she can either agree with you or you get angry at her. Is that the way it is, Tony? Is that maybe the way she sees it? If she doesn’t agree with you or see it the same way as you, you get all frustrated and justify speaking harshly to her??

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion) … Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings. … Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. … Does God make Andro for the soul? <hr /></blockquote>Okay-—Tony there are no pills, shots or after-shave lotions that you can use for an instantaneous change! It takes effort, practice (and failure), and TIME!! Exercise your emotions by doing some of the exercises I described above—or something equally helpful that you come up with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.<hr /></blockquote>OMG!! YAY!! Good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W. … Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed. … I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL<hr /></blockquote>YAY!! Oh, Tony-meister I’m so excited. You certainly can practice on YD and SD. See learning to be in touch with your feelings is going to be good for you whether your W chooses to reconcile with you or not. You will be a better man for it, and you will be closer to the man God wants you to be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, regarding the bed thing-—I am a night owl by nature, so I’m usually up until 1am or 2am MT—aka 4am ET! We could be talking to each other on MB from DIFFERENT DAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Greetings my struggling brother.

I have a few quick things to let you know:
#1 – When I was young, I used to be a gymnast, and I fell off the balance beam and really hurt my back. Today it’s aching, so when my back hurts, I don’t think as clearly, quickly, or logically. Please give me a little bit of a break today, okay?? <hr /></blockquote>OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

#2 – When you write over and over again about wanting microwave results and wanting immediate time with her and being frustrated because she won’t even consider reconciliation, I think you are really pushing for your own way RIGHT NOW, and I feel very pressured. It’s somewhat similar to the feeling of one person with a life jacket and everyone else who doesn’t have one clinging to them and pulling them under. So, whilst I understand your desperation and extreme anxiety, I’m going to ask you to back off a little—-and to me, that means mellow out the tone of your posts from a command or requirement for instantaneous results to recognizing that it’s going to take time…that your wife may have her mind made up…and that while I may help you to understand better, it is conceivable it may not save your marriage.

<hr /></blockquote>This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.

I'm frustrated with me and God more than I'm frustrated with any person. God tell us in His word:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />James 1:2-8

James 1

Trials and Temptations

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.<hr /></blockquote>I'm asking for wisdom here, I want to know what words God would have me speak to my wife. I want to know what actions God wants me to perform. If He doesn't want me to talk to her, then tell me.

You mention later that you are proud of her. I'm proud and troubled.

When she moved out and told me she just wanted to have her space, I SUPPORTED HER IN THAT. I HELPED HER MOVE!!!

I didn't say that what she was doing was wrong. In fact, when her family thought she was nuts, I was IN HER CORNER SUPPORTING HER AND TELLING THEM THAT I UNDERSTAND THAT SHE NEEDS TO DO THIS.

So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive.

But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Now, let’s get down to the meat of some of your posts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> …I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic. …You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey. …So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???<hr /></blockquote>As you know, I do not consider being driven by logic a crime—-any more than I consider it a crime to be driven by emotions. It is not “wrong” just different. BUT…if I could put 2 and 2 together, are you trying to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’m the one who had an affair here! All I did was be insensitive”? Is that close?

<hr /></blockquote>Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do.

I don't see an affair as the "things you are supposed to do" in a relationship.

I understand why she had the affair, she felt hurt, insignificant, etc. Furthermore, my attempts to "take her pulse" were met with answers like, "oh, I'm just tired" when I asked her how she felt, or when she would just park herself in front of the TV in the bedroom and run me out.

She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away from her soap operas or reality shows.

I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation. Now we don't.

So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation meet. I went online and talked about cars, autocrossing, motor oil, whatever...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 

Tony, I think that’s your heart talking—-you’re saying stuff out of hurt there, and so I’m going to choose to bypass the glaring LB-style of this. You are HURT so you are doing a little hurting back by flinging the affair out there. It’s understandable, but that kind of verbal zing is JUST the kind of thing that caused little hurts over the years that added up to huge hurts.

<hr /></blockquote>Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. If I wanted to hurt, I'd say something like (and I don't say these things) that two timing so-n-so (fill in your favorite prejorative) is screwed up in the head.

I've NEVER said anything like that, to her, or anybody else.

Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

I understand that you are goal-oriented, but a logical fella like you should understand that if you do step one, skip steps two and three, and do only step four to get to the goal quicker, then the integrity of the goal is compromised. So, you are here: “90% thinking with my head/10% feeling with my heart” and you’d like to be here: “70% thinking with my head /30% feeling with my heart.” How do you go from one place to the other? What might be some logical steps to take? What might be some exercises you could do to get more in touch with your feelings and more in touch with empathy?

<hr /></blockquote>That's the question I've been asking. It seems God is uncharacteristically silent on this so far. Maybe you are His messenger, I don't know. All I know is I WANT to know what to do.

I don't want to skip to step 4, because I know I have to open or wait for her spirit to open.

However, I think I made the case for not spending more time on step 1. I've been in step #1 for 6+ months. I don't disagree with you regarding the things I did wrong.

I just need to see these things BEFORE I do them. I can see them AFTER they've occured, but I don't have that filter. I don't hear the Holy Spirit guiding my words, and that is what I want, or want to learn.

Again, I'm willing to do the work, I agree that there is merit to understanding how she feels and how can I anticipate how she will feel about anything I might say BEFORE I say it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Speaking for myself, I was about 90% Feeler/10% Thinker and I wanted to be more Thinker, so I did training exercises to TEACH myself to think more logically. I made lists; I wrote down goals and broke them down into steps to get there; I read about philosophy and quantum physics to see if I could follow the thought and logic; etc. As much as possible, I tried to engage my MIND in order to grow that muscle. You do the same thing here but in reverse, Tony. Every day, learn a new word for a feeling and learn about that feeling. If you have more emotional vocabulary than “angry, frustrated, pissed, and happy” you will be better able to identify when you do have a feeling. Write down emotional goals and break them down into steps to get there—like you want to check in with yourself once each hour and see how you’re feeling AT THAT MOMENT, and you want to do that check in every day for two weeks so you become more aware of your feelings. Read some books about feelings, emotions, etc. and see if you can identify what do you need to do to empathize? Keep a diary of your emotions and when they change, noting date, time of day, and some surrounding circumstances and see if you can see a pattern (for example, I noticed that when I do not get adequate sleep, I tend to be more grouchy, angry, touchy, and improperly sensitive-—whereas when I take care of myself and get good sleep, I’m more able and available to be thoughtful and sympathetic). FINALLY, when I noticed myself getting into an emotional whirlwind (as is my nature) I just recognized that I needed to take some time to let the whirlwind die down and then I’d be able to THINK—-you may need to do something similar. When you get into a particularly logical mode from work, you may need some time to let the logic-mode subside and re-engage your feelings.

<hr /></blockquote>YEAH! Now you are speaking my language. I do want to say that I have no problem with expressing my feelings and W even says that.

My problem is that I cannot see how my words and deeds make others feel, nor can I even anticipate how someone might feel and adjust my words or actions based on a potential for hurt feelings.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

As to why you wife will not even consider reconciliation, you know each INFP woman is different, but my guess would be that she’s afraid to try again and have it not work out. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again—-so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted. …She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings. …Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm…asking her to tell you and show you what she wants it the rough equivalent of her saying to you, “Explain to me your exact thought processes on every decision and choice you’ve made today—-including data consider, the model used, and the result.” Okay, at first you might be able to do it because it would be kind of fun to share your Thinker moments with your wife—-but after a few weeks or months of it, you’d get tired. Same here. At some point, if you were sharing your data gathered, model used, and calculation results, you might hope that your wife would catch on and start at least seeing the pattern to HOW you think—and she probably figures that if she explained to you what to say and what to do, that eventually you would start to catch on to how she feels. Unfortunately, Feelers take different data into consideration in almost every instance, so that Thinkers can rarely if ever make a static model from which they can always (or even USUALLY) reach the correct conclusion. So what happens is that the Thinker puts in the known/obvious facts—-puts it into the “if/then” model that they’ve built, and the Thinker comes to a conclusion; meanwhile the Feeler puts in the known/obvious facts and the intuitively understood truths—-filters it all through intuition and perceptions-—and comes to an entirely different conclusion but wonders what in the world is wrong with the Thinker!! Furthermore, the Feeler often incorrectly assumes that if the Thinker can’t reach the same conclusion and consider all the variables, then the Thinker must not FEEL love or romance or whatever.

<hr /></blockquote>I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

BTW, she says she does not have romantic feelings for you because her love bank is empty, and she does not want to rekindle romance for the reasons mentioned above. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again-—so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)<hr /></blockquote>Well, here’s some of your little Thinker logic sticking it’s head out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tony, your arguments and persuasions make a lot of logical sense, but very little emotional sense. To her, the choices are more like:

1. Remain in marriage without change and die from the pain and lose myself completely
2. Get divorced and hurt now, but be free to be myself later
3. Work on marriage and risk my heart and continue to let myself be hurt.

<hr /></blockquote>Thank You!!! You are right, I never thought of it that way.

I can see your/her POV. See, I have no idea how she might see/feel about these things.

That's the kind of information I'd like to hear from her. I would welcome that information and thank her for that, much as I'm thanking you right now.

So since she can't tell me and it is impractical to bring every scenario to you, how do I learn to anticipate this?

I will perform the exercise you mentioned, but I'd like you to tweek the exercise so I can learn to anticipate the feelings of others.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

As far as not considering that it hurts you, I would counter with this: for years she did try to communicate in her Feeler way that you were hurting her—-but you are a buffalo and did not even notice what she (the butterfly) was saying. For years you did not seem to consider the hurt that she felt, so now she does not acknowledge the hurt that you feel. Working on the marriage to her means returning to the person with whom she has associated pain and agony and sorrow. Nothing personal my man, but who would WANT to return to that?? In many ways, I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and protecting herself. In many ways, I admire her ability to hurt some now in order to be free and unhurt later. Can you see that as an admirable and compelling trait? Your wife, she is QUITE a strong woman!

<hr /></blockquote>You read what I read before as well. I too am proud that she is taking steps that she thinks will make her a better, healthier person.

Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> … I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset. …She says I have too many expectations. (We were talking about me seeing our daughter.) … She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help. … I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. <hr /></blockquote>Tony, stop and think a second—-when you called her was it during a time when she told you not to call (as in, it’s inconvenient for her)? Was it later or early or right at a meal time? Did you push her to have a “relationship talk” or did she mildly object to the call and you drove right over her objection? I do not know the circumstances of your call, but these are some typical, representative things that can occur that might upset your wife.

<hr /></blockquote>I try to call before 8PM as she tries to get YD to bed by 8:30. I called Sunday night at 7:30PM, and that isn't a typical dinner time. So how am I supposed to know she is eating dinner.

Didn't try to force a relationship talk. In fact, I asked her about what happened with SD on Friday night. I've NEVER just shown up at the apartment. I've NEVER asked to come over to the apartment. I only come when invited, and SD asked me to bring her something Friday night, and I simply wanted to visit with YD and was not allowed to.

So I asked W about this, and the conversation went to W having her own problems with SD and how she didn't have anyone to help.

So I shared the fact that I'm still willing to help, and she got upset about that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

As relates to seeing your D, it would probably be best if you two could have a regular schedule with SOME flexibility. This is good for you and your wife because you can plan your lives, and it is good for your D because she knows when she will be where, and when she will be with which parent. Tony, she NEEDS to have you in her life, so even if your wife hardens her heart and divorces you, do not get depressed and slow down regular time with your daughter. She NEEDS to have a relationship with her father even if her mom does not want to.

HOWEVER, I will mention that just in reading your posts once or twice, I’ve noticed that you stop over and want to see YD, or feel lonely and want to see D. That kind of dropping by and sudden change of schedule only leads to hurt and misunderstanding. If she lets you see YD and D, then you are disrupting her life and disrespecting her schedule, and resentment will build. OTOH, if she doesn’t let you see YD and D, then you are hurt. It’s like you expect her to just bend to your needs and your wavering wishes. So, that’s what she means when she says you have too many expectations.

<hr /></blockquote>See above, I've never just "stopped by" I do call to talk to her, and I think that is appropriate.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

One thing I TOTALLY understand and empathize with is your wife’s statement about having trouble with SD and having no one to help. She was not trying to manipulate you into helping her-—she was feeling overwhelmed. I don’t know SD’s age, but as the kids get older, there are times when they are just a HANDFUL. When you’re married, you have a partner sharing your life who can take over for a little while when you get overwhelmed. When you’re alone, every situation must be dealt with BY YOU and there is no relief and no reinforcement. Plus, kids are smart as a whip, and when they see a crack or break in mom’s armor, they go right for it and pick, pick, pick. There are times when you just want to cry out to someone: “AARRGGHH!!! I’m doing this alone!! I can’t do this anymore-—I’m exhausted and they won’t let up.” Sometimes there are behavior issues, school issues, friend issues, etc. and it seems like every bit of your energy goes into your kids.

If you say, “Boy that sounds tough-—what can I do?” be prepared to here a pretty snappy response, like “Pay your child support on time, you a$$!” You might want to try REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan, (S)afety. When she says she is having her own problems with SD and she doesn’t have anyone to help, you might say: “I’m so sorry that you are in the position of raising SD alone because of the way I treated you. I bet that’s really hard on you and exhausting. Would it help if I watch the kids one night a week every Wednesday to give you a day off? Whatever YOU decide you need in order to feel supported in this, I will be happy to offer.”
<hr /></blockquote>Well, I wasn't as sweet as you were, but I said I was there to help.

She used to have me get the girls three days a week to take them to school in the AM as on MWF YD has pre-school at 9AM and SD (14yo BTW) has school at 8AM, and they both are still in school near our house and 20 minutes from the apartment.

So three days a week, I was driving over there, getting the girls and driving back.

SD has basically become impossible with me, saying things like I'm going to kill her, I killed her cat, etc.

(I only kill bugs, and the occassional trout while fishing.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul. … So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!<hr /></blockquote>OY! Rolling eyes in the way that means “oh brother”. It doesn’t happen that way, and this is part of what I was talking about when I mentioned feeling pressure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them. <hr /></blockquote>Just as her smooshiness appears to you as if she is disregarding/not valuing your reasoning.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.<hr /></blockquote>This sounds dangerously close to she can either agree with you or you get angry at her. Is that the way it is, Tony? Is that maybe the way she sees it? If she doesn’t agree with you or see it the same way as you, you get all frustrated and justify speaking harshly to her??

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion) … Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings. … Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. … Does God make Andro for the soul? <hr /></blockquote>Okay-—Tony there are no pills, shots or after-shave lotions that you can use for an instantaneous change! It takes effort, practice (and failure), and TIME!! Exercise your emotions by doing some of the exercises I described above—or something equally helpful that you come up with.

<hr /></blockquote>Ok, please help me come up with an exercise where I learn to predict the emotional response of others to what I'm saying or doing.

It's not that I'm devoid of emotion, but rather that emotion is a very small part of my decision making and word choice.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.<hr /></blockquote>OMG!! YAY!! Good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W. … Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed. … I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL<hr /></blockquote>YAY!! Oh, Tony-meister I’m so excited. You certainly can practice on YD and SD. See learning to be in touch with your feelings is going to be good for you whether your W chooses to reconcile with you or not. You will be a better man for it, and you will be closer to the man God wants you to be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, regarding the bed thing-—I am a night owl by nature, so I’m usually up until 1am or 2am MT—aka 4am ET! We could be talking to each other on MB from DIFFERENT DAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

CJ <hr /></blockquote>Thanks,

Tony

I was just wondering...

Do you have any idea what a challenge this is? This is like watching a movie in Latin and translating it into English and there is not English equivalent for that Latin word! I feel like I'm filtering my thoughts through two or three translations before I can get it into a form that rings true in you.

Okay. Deep breath. Here we go again.

It seemed like you like the exercises because they are fairly concrete, so let's go with that, in conjunction with breaking through to chapter two "Openning a Closed Spirit"

Here are the exercises I want you to practice. If you are a writer, you may write them. I know you can THINK them, but I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do.

(BTW, I bet you can tell...I did mine longhand, and I'm quite long-winded! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Laughing at myself).

Now, these assignments are non-negotiable. Unless there is blood or fire, I expect you to do them even if you don't want to and even if you can logic your way out of them! Got it??

1) Do one fun thing every day. I mean it! Now, my fun is more feeley and mooshy like I took a moment to stop and enjoy the sunset tonite, and I listened to Linkin Park with my son because I love him. To me, that's fun and on the verge of playing. For YOU, it may be fun to finally organize your socks in to color order...or sanitize your kitchen...or work on your car so that it works properly. I don't know!! Whatever it is that makes your heart feel a little happy, do a few minutes of that every day. Write down what you did and when and where.

2) Look up, discuss, and investigate one feeling word each day. Now, I'm not talking about memorizing the dictionary definition. I'm talking about thinking about what the word means and what that feeling would feel like. Today's word is:Exhausted--not on a physical level, on an emotional level.

Here's an example of what I mean: To me, exhausted emotionally means that you have drained all your emotional reserves and used them either for yourself or others. You are bone dry. Emotionally Exhausted means you can't give one more hug or say one more supportive word without collapsing. Emotional exhaustion feels like tiredness, and feels like being used, and feels like you can't lift your arms or head, and feels like the life has been sucked out of you. It's not so much HURT as EXPENDED. I feel this way when I give and give and give to my family and friends -- OR WRITE TO THINKER MEN (HEEHEE--rib rib) -- and I don't take the time to take care of myself and let them give to me.

3)Four times a day, check in with yourself and write down how you are feeling: morning, noon, dinner time, and bed time. The following words may NOT be used: "frustrated" "angry" "pissed off" "okay" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I need better emotional vocabulary than that. Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??

4) Once a day, we are going to practice empathetic listening. I'm going to tell you something about my day, my life or my dog (whatever) and you are going to try to pick out my feeling words and mirror back to me what I told you I was feeling.

Here's an example: Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day.

Tony--can you pick out the feeling words in that? Just list them for now and we'll progress from there.

5) Move on into Chapter Two "Openning a Closed Spirit" and let's start discussing that.

These are my exercises and these are my terms. Do you agree to do the exercises??

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc. <hr /></blockquote>Okay I will do my best to remind myself that it's very factual and concrete, not personal. It's difficult for me to imagine a statement having little or no feelings involved in it. That's kind of like a lung having little or no air. BUT, as I understand it, that's what it's like for you...a statement with no emotion invested into it. Is that correct? Close-ish??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.<hr /></blockquote>Ahhhh!!! Now this I understand. What you're saying is that you would like God to drop a divine list into your hands that says, "Do A, B, and C to be more Christlike, and your W will come back" or "Your W will not be coming back, but it's because I want to do X, Y, and Z with your life." Okay--well maybe not THAT obvious, but something close, like speak to you in some way or give you some clarity or SOMETHING!!

Tony, I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to hear God's voice when I'm shouting at Him. Usually I'm making such a racket that eventually He will hit me on the head with a fry pan and I'll say, "Oh--You want me to be quiet." DUH!

You've been praying for what seems like a LONG time "to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike." Is this the prayer that God wants? If not, He will sit and wait until it's the prayer He wants.

Even Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, did not want to have to go through the agony of crucifixion, and he prostrated himself before God and said "if there was ANY other way, please don't make me go through this." There was NO OTHER WAY, and God made his own salvation suffer indescribably for the good of you and I. Tony, there may be NO OTHER WAY for you to learn the lessons you need to learn, or there may be NO OTHER WAY for your W to learn the lessons she needs to learn to come back to God!!

May I be very bold?? I think you need to thank God in your prayers. Thank Him for the very thing that is hurting you right now, and He will honor that prayer for it is the will of God concerning you. I also think you need to ask God for the courage to accept HIS WILL and not yours. Stop asking Him for what you want, and start asking Him for courage to do what HE wants. Finally, thank Him that He loves you enough to put you through suffering so that you might be a better, more godly man. This is what James is talking about in James 1--it is a PRIVILEGE and JOY to face trials and suffering because it is through pain that we become closer to God and become more spiritually mature.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive...<hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry if it seemed I was being harsh, Tony. I did not think you were judgemental about her moving out, but I can see that I need to choose my words a little more wisely. I can certainly understand how you would interpret my words as thinking you were judgemental, but just so you know, I did not mean them that way. I think you W did not so much quit--she did one, last, strong stand to protect herself. It may be misguided, and it may be protection from a fear that is her issue not yours--but I'm glad she did not just quit on herself. I'm glad she finds herself valuable enough to save. THAT'S what I meant.

Do you think you can forgive me for coming across so harshly? I would like it if you could.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heehee. Tony, have you ever seen a "real" buffalo? Of course, living out here in the west, I see buffalo herds all the time, so I know what they are like. They are REALLY BIG, and kind of rough and insensitve. If a hornet sits on a buffalo, it can sting all the way through the buffalo's hide, and the buffalo just swats it and doesn't really feel it at all. This is why the buffalo/butterfly analogy is SO GOOD!! If the big old rough and tumble buffalo does not even feel a wasp sting except enough to swat it away, how can a BUTTERFLY communicate with the buffalo??? Boy, just to get his attention, she would have to land on his eyeball! She can't drop a rock on him to grab his attention, because anything a butterfly could carry would be puny and meaningless to a buffalo. She can't push him or pinch him or poke him, because she just isn't powerful enough. She can't scream and yell because one puffy breeze and she blows away!

So here's this poor butterfly dropping what feel like boulders to her--the buffalo doesn't even know they hit him. The the butterfly pushes him and he thinks its the wing--she pulls his tail and he feels one hair fall out...nothing! She pinches him and he keeps chewing. She pokes him and he swats her away with his tail. It's like she's working her butterfly hindend off, and she doesn't even REGISTER with him!!!

Sound familar?? You keep saying your butterfly didn't give you the info you needed, but Mr. Buffalo, you never opened your eyes to see your butterfly. You can not make the butterfly stronger or tougher or more powerful (that's her choice), but you can make Mr. Buffalo more observant, more sensitive, and a little more gentle. That's where we are going to keep our focus--on Mr. Buffalo, not on the butterfly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do. ... She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away... I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation... So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation met, I went online and talked ... <hr /></blockquote>I will be brief here, because it's not productive to dwell on this right now. It seems apparent to me that in any relationship both partners need to have some desire to know each other and learn how to speak in the other's language. You very much would like to learn how to speak Feeler, but it does not seem as if she had much desire to speak Thinker...and for this I am truly sorry. It's a shame too, because as a Feeler who has stretched myself into learning to be a bit more of a Thinker, I feel like I am a better person for it. This is my observation, stated as evidence, not with feelings.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.<hr /></blockquote>Whoa! This is SO HARD for me to understand. You can imagine, Tony, being a FEELER and being the BS. It just about killed me. So I have great difficulty imagining how someone can state "My spouse had an affair" factually with no emotion. That's almost inconceivable to me! Whew!

So, you have a good point there. I had not looked at it from the POV of just sharing a fact, because that's not the way my reality works. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, first just to clarify, you meant that you and your W mostly communicate via telephone, right? That got a little confusing.

Anyway, let me lay this on you. Feelers rarely if even can state something in one short, declarative sentence. I mean, look at my novels!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Our communication is more of a process, and what you want is not the whole process but the end or conclusion. But asking a Feeler for a short declaration is like asking you to speak all your analysis and re-analysis out loud as you are processing it! It can be done, but it's HARD!

Thus, Mr. Buffalo, what would be a compromise that would work for both the short statement buffalo and the longwinded but oh so delicate butterfly? Mr. Buffalo try to learn to stick with the whole process-talk method because Miss Butterfly is worth the extra effort, while Miss Butterfly try to learn to stick with the W-T-F-S format? Don't do the whole long schpeel--just the "When you...I think...I feel...so I ask you..." statement??

BTW, when you do X it does not "make" anybody feel anything...Y or Z! They CHOOSE to feel Y or they choose to feel Z. I feel pressured when you want immediate results because *I* choose to feel pressured--I could just as easily choose to blow you off or ignore it or obscess about it. So for now, let's agree to this format:

"I feel (or I think) ABC when you XYZ because..."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.) <hr /></blockquote>I would have to agree with you--it is sad that she did not take the time to speak Thinker to you. And YEP--it IS equally difficult to find the logical way to speak things! Trust me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, oldtimer--I'm off to bed early tonight. Have a pleasant day tomorrow, and for tomorrow only we are going to do just the new assignments. No new chapter until Wednesday.

NIGHT!

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 I was just wondering...

Do you have any idea what a challenge this is? This is like watching a movie in Latin and translating it into English and there is not English equivalent for that Latin word! I feel like I'm filtering my thoughts through two or three translations before I can get it into a form that rings true in you.

<hr /></blockquote>I have an idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, translating Logical Latin into Empathetic English, and often finding there are few or only poor feeling words to describe the logic.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Okay. Deep breath. Here we go again.

It seemed like you like the exercises because they are fairly concrete, so let's go with that, in conjunction with breaking through to chapter two "Openning a Closed Spirit"

Here are the exercises I want you to practice. If you are a writer, you may write them. I know you can THINK them, but I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do.

(BTW, I bet you can tell...I did mine longhand, and I'm quite long-winded! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Laughing at myself).

<hr /></blockquote>If I did mine longhanded, neither of us could read them, LOL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Now, these assignments are non-negotiable. Unless there is blood or fire, I expect you to do them even if you don't want to and even if you can logic your way out of them! Got it??

1) Do one fun thing every day. I mean it! Now, my fun is more feeley and mooshy like I took a moment to stop and enjoy the sunset tonite, and I listened to Linkin Park with my son because I love him. To me, that's fun and on the verge of playing. For YOU, it may be fun to finally organize your socks in to color order...or sanitize your kitchen...or work on your car so that it works properly. I don't know!! Whatever it is that makes your heart feel a little happy, do a few minutes of that every day. Write down what you did and when and where.

<hr /></blockquote>Does being color blind get me out of the whole sock thing. (Just as a funny aside, you should see some of the looks on new customer's faces when I ask them to show me which piece of equipment has the AMBER light. We have some equipment with what are called tri-state LED's. So they light up green, or amber, or do not light at all.

I cannot tell the green from the amber, so I can't see which piece of equipment is faulty.

So you can imagine the confidence instilled in a customer who is paying 3 million each year in support when their Systems Engineer shows up and can't tell which unit is having trouble.

So the stereo rewiring job last weekend was also a challenge, to say the least.)

Ok, I will try my best to have fun, but I do get to decide what is fun. I will resist the temptation to go have hotwings at that restaruant known for scantily clad over-endowed girls serving mediocre wings.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

2) Look up, discuss, and investigate one feeling word each day. Now, I'm not talking about memorizing the dictionary definition. I'm talking about thinking about what the word means and what that feeling would feel like. Today's word is:Exhausted--not on a physical level, on an emotional level.

Here's an example of what I mean: To me, exhausted emotionally means that you have drained all your emotional reserves and used them either for yourself or others. You are bone dry. Emotionally Exhausted means you can't give one more hug or say one more supportive word without collapsing. Emotional exhaustion feels like tiredness, and feels like being used, and feels like you can't lift your arms or head, and feels like the life has been sucked out of you. It's not so much HURT as EXPENDED. I feel this way when I give and give and give to my family and friends -- OR WRITE TO THINKER MEN (HEEHEE--rib rib) -- and I don't take the time to take care of myself and let them give to me.

<hr /></blockquote>Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do.

Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered.

I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions.

For example, let's say I was buying a car. I've examined the numbers, looked at horsepower, handling, reliability and cost. So let's say that when I examine two cars, one is fast and less expensive. The other handles well and is reliable. I value all four equally, so I have a tie.

It is only then that I would look at something other than the facts. I may begin to consider intangibles. How do I look in the car. Which made the more favorable first impression, etc.

But I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do.

But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel.

I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial.

However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary.

(You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

3)Four times a day, check in with yourself and write down how you are feeling: morning, noon, dinner time, and bed time. The following words may NOT be used: "frustrated" "angry" "pissed off" "okay" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I need better emotional vocabulary than that. Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??

<hr /></blockquote>Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

4) Once a day, we are going to practice empathetic listening. I'm going to tell you something about my day, my life or my dog (whatever) and you are going to try to pick out my feeling words and mirror back to me what I told you I was feeling.

Here's an example: Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day.

Tony--can you pick out the feeling words in that? Just list them for now and we'll progress from there.
<hr /></blockquote>fun
enjoyed
love
disappointed
satisfied

The reader's digest or ESTJ summary would be:

You had a busy day at work. While you didn't accomplish all you wanted to accomplish, you felt good about your day.

A secretary was out, so you had to pick up her slack. You got a chance to re-connect with customers you haven't talked to in a while as well as have some fun with the locksmiths.

(Notes: I checked to see if you indicated the secreary was female, I did not assume.

I take it you don't normally talk with these folks???)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

5) Move on into Chapter Two "Openning a Closed Spirit" and let's start discussing that.

These are my exercises and these are my terms. Do you agree to do the exercises??

CJ <hr /></blockquote>Done, I think!

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc. <hr /></blockquote>Okay I will do my best to remind myself that it's very factual and concrete, not personal. It's difficult for me to imagine a statement having little or no feelings involved in it. That's kind of like a lung having little or no air. BUT, as I understand it, that's what it's like for you...a statement with no emotion invested into it. Is that correct? Close-ish??

<hr /></blockquote>Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. (Is that too confusing?)

So tell me this, turning the exercise around, when I say, "My wife had an affair" what feeling words did I use?

NONE!

So don't assume I'm trying to hurt her.

I'm not angry here either. If I'm angry or feeling any other things, I'll express them. I have no problem expressing my feeling. I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions.

Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone.

You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose.

Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly?

Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.<hr /></blockquote>Ahhhh!!! Now this I understand. What you're saying is that you would like God to drop a divine list into your hands that says, "Do A, B, and C to be more Christlike, and your W will come back" or "Your W will not be coming back, but it's because I want to do X, Y, and Z with your life." Okay--well maybe not THAT obvious, but something close, like speak to you in some way or give you some clarity or SOMETHING!!

<hr /></blockquote>100% spot on! Continue.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Tony, I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to hear God's voice when I'm shouting at Him. Usually I'm making such a racket that eventually He will hit me on the head with a fry pan and I'll say, "Oh--You want me to be quiet." DUH!

You've been praying for what seems like a LONG time "to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike." Is this the prayer that God wants? If not, He will sit and wait until it's the prayer He wants.

<hr /></blockquote>Isn't that the job of the Holy Spirit, to move me to speak the words to God that He wants to hear?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Even Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, did not want to have to go through the agony of crucifixion, and he prostrated himself before God and said "if there was ANY other way, please don't make me go through this." There was NO OTHER WAY, and God made his own salvation suffer indescribably for the good of you and I. Tony, there may be NO OTHER WAY for you to learn the lessons you need to learn, or there may be NO OTHER WAY for your W to learn the lessons she needs to learn to come back to God!!

May I be very bold?? I think you need to thank God in your prayers. Thank Him for the very thing that is hurting you right now, and He will honor that prayer for it is the will of God concerning you. I also think you need to ask God for the courage to accept HIS WILL and not yours. Stop asking Him for what you want, and start asking Him for courage to do what HE wants. Finally, thank Him that He loves you enough to put you through suffering so that you might be a better, more godly man. This is what James is talking about in James 1--it is a PRIVILEGE and JOY to face trials and suffering because it is through pain that we become closer to God and become more spiritually mature.

<hr /></blockquote>I'm trying to do that, I've prayed for that as well. I just need to do a better job of it.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive...<hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry if it seemed I was being harsh, Tony. I did not think you were judgemental about her moving out, but I can see that I need to choose my words a little more wisely. I can certainly understand how you would interpret my words as thinking you were judgemental, but just so you know, I did not mean them that way. I think you W did not so much quit--she did one, last, strong stand to protect herself. It may be misguided, and it may be protection from a fear that is her issue not yours--but I'm glad she did not just quit on herself. I'm glad she finds herself valuable enough to save. THAT'S what I meant.

Do you think you can forgive me for coming across so harshly? I would like it if you could.

<hr /></blockquote>CJ, I don't think what you said rises to the point of me being hurt, but if you feel you need to be forgiven, then I want you to know that you are forgiven.

I didn't even think you were speaking harshly. I just felt you didn't truly understand, or perhaps you were projecting your feelings onto what I did/said.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heehee. Tony, have you ever seen a "real" buffalo? Of course, living out here in the west, I see buffalo herds all the time, so I know what they are like. They are REALLY BIG, and kind of rough and insensitve. If a hornet sits on a buffalo, it can sting all the way through the buffalo's hide, and the buffalo just swats it and doesn't really feel it at all. This is why the buffalo/butterfly analogy is SO GOOD!! If the big old rough and tumble buffalo does not even feel a wasp sting except enough to swat it away, how can a BUTTERFLY communicate with the buffalo??? Boy, just to get his attention, she would have to land on his eyeball! She can't drop a rock on him to grab his attention, because anything a butterfly could carry would be puny and meaningless to a buffalo. She can't push him or pinch him or poke him, because she just isn't powerful enough. She can't scream and yell because one puffy breeze and she blows away!

So here's this poor butterfly dropping what feel like boulders to her--the buffalo doesn't even know they hit him. The the butterfly pushes him and he thinks its the wing--she pulls his tail and he feels one hair fall out...nothing! She pinches him and he keeps chewing. She pokes him and he swats her away with his tail. It's like she's working her butterfly hindend off, and she doesn't even REGISTER with him!!!

Sound familar?? You keep saying your butterfly didn't give you the info you needed, but Mr. Buffalo, you never opened your eyes to see your butterfly. You can not make the butterfly stronger or tougher or more powerful (that's her choice), but you can make Mr. Buffalo more observant, more sensitive, and a little more gentle. That's where we are going to keep our focus--on Mr. Buffalo, not on the butterfly.

<hr /></blockquote>See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly.

I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflys from buffalos.

Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality.

How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarly the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time.) and then ran out the door.

So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out.

So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago?

This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgement, but simply my perspective on how I percieve what is going on.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do. ... She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away... I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation... So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation met, I went online and talked ... <hr /></blockquote>I will be brief here, because it's not productive to dwell on this right now. It seems apparent to me that in any relationship both partners need to have some desire to know each other and learn how to speak in the other's language. You very much would like to learn how to speak Feeler, but it does not seem as if she had much desire to speak Thinker...and for this I am truly sorry. It's a shame too, because as a Feeler who has stretched myself into learning to be a bit more of a Thinker, I feel like I am a better person for it. This is my observation, stated as evidence, not with feelings.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.<hr /></blockquote>Whoa! This is SO HARD for me to understand. You can imagine, Tony, being a FEELER and being the BS. It just about killed me. So I have great difficulty imagining how someone can state "My spouse had an affair" factually with no emotion. That's almost inconceivable to me! Whew!

So, you have a good point there. I had not looked at it from the POV of just sharing a fact, because that's not the way my reality works. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

<hr /></blockquote>You are welcome. Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler.

Why not the other way around. Often it feels like only the thinker should change.

Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work.

But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker.

So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler?

Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times.

I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers.

Do many thinkers stick around here?

I wonder...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, first just to clarify, you meant that you and your W mostly communicate via telephone, right? That got a little confusing.
<hr /></blockquote>If you go back to the message where I was responding, you mentioned a good portion of communication is non-verbal. However, I don't get those non-verbal cues talking on the telephone. There is no body language. I cannot see what she is doing with her hands, her eyes. I can probably start picking up on the tone of her voice, but I need to learn because I'm just listening to the words and what they mean, not the tone and feeling it conveys.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Anyway, let me lay this on you. Feelers rarely if even can state something in one short, declarative sentence. I mean, look at my novels!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Our communication is more of a process, and what you want is not the whole process but the end or conclusion. But asking a Feeler for a short declaration is like asking you to speak all your analysis and re-analysis out loud as you are processing it! It can be done, but it's HARD!

Thus, Mr. Buffalo, what would be a compromise that would work for both the short statement buffalo and the longwinded but oh so delicate butterfly? Mr. Buffalo try to learn to stick with the whole process-talk method because Miss Butterfly is worth the extra effort, while Miss Butterfly try to learn to stick with the W-T-F-S format? Don't do the whole long schpeel--just the "When you...I think...I feel...so I ask you..." statement??

BTW, when you do X it does not "make" anybody feel anything...Y or Z! They CHOOSE to feel Y or they choose to feel Z. I feel pressured when you want immediate results because *I* choose to feel pressured--I could just as easily choose to blow you off or ignore it or obscess about it. So for now, let's agree to this format:

"I feel (or I think) ABC when you XYZ because..."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.) <hr /></blockquote>I would have to agree with you--it is sad that she did not take the time to speak Thinker to you. And YEP--it IS equally difficult to find the logical way to speak things! Trust me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, oldtimer--I'm off to bed early tonight. Have a pleasant day tomorrow, and for tomorrow only we are going to do just the new assignments. No new chapter until Wednesday.

NIGHT!

CJ <hr /></blockquote>CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company.

Ok, that's a lot for the past hour or so, so enjoy.
Please remember, the ESTJ is not trying to hurt anyone, because hurt is not logical and it serves me no purpose to hurt you or my W.

Tony

[ March 09, 2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

CJ,

I know this sounds a bit simple, but the primary feeling I've had most of the day was at peace.

W had YD call me this morning. While she didn't want to talk to me, I did enjoy the chance to chat with Camy.

I did make sure I left her a v-mail at the apartment thanking her for having Camy call me today. (Can't rely on a 5yo to deliver that message 8^) )

From 2:00-2:30 I visited with the pastor and I wasn't so peaceful there. He confirms much of what you and W both say, so I found that helpful, but he wasn't helpful answering the questions about why I'm having such a hard time with hearing God.

He did suggest fasting, so that was something different, and gave a rationale for it as well.

But the rest of the day has been somewhat peaceful.

I'm off to my Tuesday night men's Bible study. We are working on my "favorite" book, James. (I'll either get my hands around the words, or get them around the author's neck, LOL.)

Thanks,

Tony

Java,

Didn't mean to intrude on your post here, but I just wanted to give you a thumbs up for really trying to understand your W & make the changes necessary for you to be the H you were created to be. YAY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You'll find the answers you're looking for - God will send His Holy Spirit upon you. I think you just really have to work on patience - trying to wait on God's timing and what a better way to learn than through CJ. She has the gift of putting into words what so many of us are thinking. God bless you on your journey!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by java:
 I have an idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, translating Logical Latin into Empathetic English, and often finding there are few or only poor feeling words to describe the logic. <hr /></blockquote>Cute! Logical Latin into Empathetic English. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Are you getting tired? Do you want to just talk Logical Latin for a while to make it easier for you? I will try my best to get your language—and I’ll mirror back to make sure I’m receiving the message you’re sending.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by CJ:
 … I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do…
and the reply from java:
 If I did mine longhanded, neither of us could read them, LOL <hr /></blockquote>Ah ha! So you have doctor’s handwriting or something? All your notes are in Greek so no one else can read them? Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Well, Mr. Technical, if you enjoy typing that’s an option that’s likely more legible, or just jot a note in your Daytimer or PDA. Whatever works for you, I leave it up to you and trust in your decision—just take the time to write a little something, okay??

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Does being color blind get me out of the whole sock thing. (Just as a funny aside, you should see some of the looks on new customer's faces when I ask them to show me which piece of equipment has the AMBER light. We have some equipment with what are called tri-state LED's. So they light up green, or amber, or do not light at all. I cannot tell the green from the amber, so I can't see which piece of equipment is faulty. So you can imagine the confidence instilled in a customer who is paying 3 million each year in support when their Systems Engineer shows up and can't tell which unit is having trouble. So the stereo rewiring job last weekend was also a challenge, to say the least.) Ok, I will try my best to have fun, but I do get to decide what is fun. I will resist the temptation to go have hotwings at that restaurant known for scantily clad over-endowed girls serving mediocre wings. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, I’m going to immediately rush out and buy you red socks and tell you they are charcoal! OOOOOoooo. Zing. Listen, in my book being color blind does not get you out of organizing your socks, but it does explain why you wear one light blue and one beige sock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (teasing is now official over)

Yes, OF COURSE you get to decide what is fun. I do not mean this as dramatically as it may sound, but I have no idea what may be fun for you. Even if you were a Feeler guy, everyone is an individual and has fun doing different stuff. Thus, to be clear, I am not here to judge or critique your definition of “fun”—just encourage you to enjoy yourself (however that may be) and do something you find pleasant. And thank you for not going to Hooters—I appreciate that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do. Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered. <hr /></blockquote>Interesting note: did you notice how you likened emotional exhaustion to being so tired that your brain can’t work? Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting! Also, kind of out of the blue, you mention that you don’t give hugs. Why did you mention that? I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection between emotional exhaustion and giving hugs FOR YOU. For me, giving a hug takes some emotional energy from me and gives it to them—thus, sometimes I get “hugged out”. But that’s me. Is it somehow significant that you don’t offer hugs, or are you just not a hugger or what?? Are hugs connected to an emotional event for you, or not? I mean—is a hug emotionally significant to you? Have your feelings ever been exhausted?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions. … I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do. But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel. I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial. However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary. (You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.) <hr /></blockquote>Well, Tony, good for you! I think you really are getting it! The point of this exercise is not to humor me—nor is it to expand your vocabulary that I am confident is quite extensive and exact. No, the point of this exercise is to expand the words you use to describe your feelings, to get you thinking about the subtle differences between some feelings, and to get you to focus and think about at least one emotion every day (other than “frustrated” “happy” and “mad”). It’s an exercise in using, growing, stretching and developing the emotions that you do have.

BTW, I’m not sure how you got the false impression that I thought you didn’t have feelings. I know you have feelings, it’s just that your thinking is dominant. In my mind I liken it to being right-handed. You still HAVE a left hand and you still can write with your left hand—it’s just that your right hand is dominant. Furthermore, I’m confident you can express your emotions just as well as I can express a thought! I have no doubt that you have deep, intense feelings—the trick is to practice conveying them and reading them (through a variety of communication levels) from others.

I tend to agree with you that the other exercises will be more beneficial in developing empathy and connecting to your emotions on a regular basis, but it is my understanding that the goal here is to strengthen the “feelings muscle” and relax the “thinking muscle” so we are going to do things that involve the emotions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by CJ:
 Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??
and the reply from Java:
 Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance. <hr /></blockquote>I’m sorry to hear you feel like that. I hope some of the mist starts to clear, some of the shock starts to wear off, and that fairly soon you are back to being in balance with who you are.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by CJ:
Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day. 
and the reply from Tony:
 fun enjoyed love disappointed satisfied <hr /></blockquote>Wow, very good job. I am impressed that you were so perceptive and observant. Now would I totally blow it if I show you some of the more subtle emotional words, or shall I allow you to bask in the glow of your success? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

“Unproductive” is an emotional word for me because it involves faint elements of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

“Reconnecting” is also an emotional word for me because connecting with people is almost an instinctual drive for an INFP. Reconnecting involves relating and linking to another person, and the way I connect to people is via emotions (and some thoughts/ideas).

“Like” is an emotional word, and I think you know that so I won’t explain it a whole lot.

“Talking” is a word that COULD be an emotional word, because when I talk, I’m usually trying to connect or explain or communicate in some way.

“Joking” and “friendly” are feeler words, because they express the concept of being playful and having that kind of relationship where you can laugh with someone. Even when the person is a co-worker and not a close, personal friend, joking and being friendly connotates a relationship that is comfortable, familiar and pleasant.

So, Tony, GREAT JOB!! I am sincerely impressed!!

* * * * * * * * *
In post #2,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by Java:
 Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. <hr /></blockquote>MAN!! That is an EXCELLENT point that I had never even considered! Look at that—the student is teaching the master (giggle). Speaking purely for myself here, after I read this I gave it some consideration all day, and upon examining my own heart, I believe this is exactly what I do. I’m not sure if it’s any comfort to know that I don’t fill in with what I think people SHOULD feel—but I do fill in with what * I * would feel or what I have felt in the past. What a stunning revelation! Thank you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> …I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions. Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone. You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose. Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly? Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her. <hr /></blockquote>You know, you bring up a good point here. I think on an occasion people do project their own thoughts or feelings onto other people, but not always. Based on the way you’ve responded here though, it seems like I must have touched a nerve or something—most likely a nerve that your W hits all the time and maybe you think I’m hitting it too. Here’s the thing, Tony: why would I assume or say that you are TRYING to hurt someone? That makes no common sense to me. You have no reason that I know of to consciously make the effort to try to hurt your W. Furthermore, that I can recall, I do not remember saying anything that suggests you hurt her deliberately or with premeditation or anything! Nope, it’s my observation that you DID hurt her, but mostly because you are tougher and bigger than she is—and being tough and big is not wrong, it just IS. No, buffalos absolutely do not cruelly and with malice of forethought crush butterflies—but the fact is that by not noticing they are there and stepping a little clumsily, the buffalo can crush a butterfly and the end result is the butterfly is no longer existing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />then there was a bunch of writing that was basically self-explanatory until we came across this little paragraph, originally posted by java:
 See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly. I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflies from buffalos. Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality. How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarily the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time) and then ran out the door. So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out. So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago? This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgment, but simply my perspective on how I perceive what is going on. <hr /></blockquote>Tony, you sure are a funny person (btw, that’s a compliment). The buffalo/butterfly analogy is from the book we are reading—and while it does seem to serve its purpose as a visual image of some emotional stuff, I just think it’s funny to think I set it up to elicit sympathy for butterflies. I keep using it and using it as a way of communicating a concept, nothing more. Fact is, if a butterfly goes judo on a buffalo, he doesn’t realize it’s happening, and I can definitely relate to the feeling of trying to get a buffalo’s attention but everything I do seems ineffective. However, that doesn’t mean the buffalo is “bad” or the butterfly is “good” and neither need to change. Look, in nature if a buffalo and a butterfly really wanted to be a couple, the buffalo would have to learn to be more observant and tip toe, and the butterfly would have to beef up and be a little more thick-skinned. The buffalo would have behave in a way that seems very gentle and soft to him, and the butterfly would have to behave in a way that feels very brusque and coarse to her. She would have to learn to make a very loud noise, and he would have to learn to be quieter. He wouldn’t be able to thunder around, and she wouldn’t be able to be all delicate and flimsy.

However, in this little world, only the buffalo has shown up for gentleness lessons. It wouldn’t make sense for me to teach the buffalo what I would say to the butterfly if she were here. The BUFFALO is here, so I teach him stuff a buffalo needs to know. BTW, if your W were here, I would teach her butterfly stuff, like exercises on how to be logical…how to narrow a whole swirl of emotions down to one sentence…how to present her feelings of tramplement in a way a buffalo would hear…etc. PLUS, I would teach the butterfly that it’s not all the buffalo’s fault. Dude, chapter one for her would be just as painful and defeating feeling for her because she participated in this too and made some MAJOR mistakes. But for now—only the buffalo is here, so I’m teaching you how to be in touch with your butterfly side.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone. <hr /></blockquote>You know, you bring up a good point there. Some “facts” do hurt people. I comprehend that you are capable of saying “she had an affair” to simply convey that it occurred—without all the feelings of going through it—but just because something doesn’t hurt you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt anyone else. OY! What a sentence! Is there an easier way to say that??? Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me. Here’s another fact for you—my exH does not find me attractive. That DOES hurt me. Subsequently, I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on “might this hurt someone? Why or why not?”

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler. Why not the other way around? Often it feels like only the thinker should change. Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work. But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker. So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler? Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times. I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers. Do many thinkers stick around here? I wonder... <hr /></blockquote>Well, a couple of things come to mind. First, what you have said here has really made me think. My exH used to say similar things (you want me to change into a feeler) and I never understood why he felt that way, because I was doing lots of work to be more of a thinker. Now, I suspect that he was reading the “self-help” books and interpreting them as you do, and they do seem to have a bit of favoritism toward feelers don’t they? Probably because self-help books are written by feelers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Second, I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’ve always interpreted relationship improvement to mean that BOTH partners need to learn about each other and BOTH partners need to change. The feelers need to make the effort to understand thinkers, and thinkers need to make the effort to understand feelers. The buffalo needs to learn how to tiptoe, and the butterfly needs to learn how to carry a fry pan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Third, you really ARE the only one here, but that does not mean you need to do “all” the work. It means that you are willing to do the work that is needed to maintain a healthy relationship—one in which you stretch to understand your partner AND your partner stretches to understand you. Finally, I don’t know if it’s rare for the feelers to try to understand the thinkers—I just think it’s rare for ANY partner to take the time to soften their heart admit that they need to do some changing. It’s SO much easier to blame your partner than to look in the mirror and admit to yourself you’re wrong.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company. <hr /></blockquote>Ohhhh…(blush). I thought I spoke to you about this concept; upon review, I wrote to Standing Together about this tool. The “W-T-F-S” format is an acronym (much like REPS). It stands for “When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___” and it can be used to communicate positive and negative comments. For example, “When you keep pointing out areas that I hadn’t considered, I think “wow, what a good point!” and I feel impressed, so I’m going to ask you to continue throwing out those good concepts. Example #2 “When you read stuff into what I’ve written, I think “I sure didn’t mean that, and I don’t think I said that!” and I feel a little sad and diminished, so I’m going to ask you to make an effort to not project or assume, and I will do the same.” It is a format that helps a feeler to narrow down what is bugging them to ONE sentence—as well as utilizing both THINKING and FEELING—as well as stating a request of your partner out loud, so that then the partners can either agree to the request, say no to the request, or suggest an alternative that they can agree on (POJA).

So here are my acronyms:

For a thorough apology, do REPS
R—responsibility (take personal responsibility)
E—empathy (try to understand how the other person might feel)
P—plan (offer a plan to change or a suggestion)
S—safety (give your partner permission to do what they must to feel safe)

For a positive or negative statement
W--When you….
T—I think…
F—I Feel…
S—So, I’m going to ask…

Oh my! It's getting late quickly! We better get to our assignments:

1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? I took a teleclass and learned how to do some computer programming stuff. See??? Fun and THINKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

2) Vocabulary. Today's emotional vocabulary word is "Suspicious." Remember, I'm not looking for a dictionary definition here--more like what does it mean to you and how do you feel when you feel suspicious? Can you identify with feeling suspicious? Are you suspicious or trusting by nature?

3) Check-ins. Did you check in with yourself today? Morning, lunch, dinner, and bedtime? Did you notice how you felt at that moment? Was it easy to tell how you felt, or did you have to get out of thinker mode long enough to feel? Did emotional vocabular come to you fairly easily, or was it hard to find words other than "frustrated" to describe how you felt? Did you jot some notes down like I asked?

4) Empathetic Listening. Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable is just uncomfortable for me, but I have to discipline myself to do it because it's good for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed.

So...Can you see the feeling words in that paragraph? Are there any that might be subtle emotional words (sometimes they convey a feeling and sometimes they don't)? What about the message--can you hear the emotional message in the paragraph? What is it? Can you identify? Do you ever feel that way? Can you imagine how I might be feeling and put yourself in my shoes? What are some things you could do or say to offer comfort or communicate that you understand? Can you use the W-T-F-S format??

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 I know this sounds a bit simple, but the primary feeling I've had most of the day was at peace. <hr /></blockquote>YAY!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Good for you. Peace is a good thing to feel. Especially after a long winter of pain, it can feel like spring coming back to life to just feel SERENITY.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> From 2:00-2:30 I visited with the pastor and I wasn't so peaceful there. He confirms much of what you and W both say, so I found that helpful, but he wasn't helpful answering the questions about why I'm having such a hard time with hearing God. ...He did suggest fasting, so that was something different, and gave a rationale for it as well.<hr /></blockquote>I can't say, Tony--I don't know how you fast or what kind of place your heart is in when you fast. When I fast, I prepare my heart to focus on God and be still all day (and I drink OJ so my blood sugar doesn't plummet). I use fasting as a reminder that I control my appetites--ALL of my appetites--and not the other way around. I use fasting as a way to FOCUS my thoughts on spiritual things like God and the people I am praying for, and not think of everyday carnal things like food.

Tony, have you ever been in the South when it is stinking hot out? Like in Georgia during the peak of summer, when the humidity hangs in the air like wet sheets? In the South, there is NO breeze and the heat and humidity just cling to you. Have you ever been there when it's like that? They have an interesting way of dealing with the unconditioner-ed heat down South--they practice being still. During the heat of the day like that, you sit STILL, drink iced tea or lemonade (or both combined), and fan yourself AND THAT'S IT. You don't move, you don't talk all fast and excited, and you just practice being still. This may be what you need to do--practice being still before God.

Oh, I'm telling ya--I'm off to bed. The old gal is finally going before 2am!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

CJ

CJ,

I have read what you said, but I know I'll need to read it dozens of times more to fully grasp this.

I am very familiar with Georgia summers. I spent a summer at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, as well as three weeks in August at Ft Benning, learning to jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

I'll read and write a more thoughtful (and with feeling) response later.

Thanks,

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Are you getting tired?

<hr /></blockquote>Nope, playing with words and conversing doesn't make me tired. Quite the opposite. After Bible Study last night, I spent about 60-90 minutes talking with one of the men there about computers, cars, marriage, God, you name it.

I was energized and didn't realize time passed so quickly.

I did observe they were trying to lock up the church, so we went outside and talked a while longer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
Do you want to just talk Logical Latin for a while to make it easier for you? I will try my best to get your language—and I’ll mirror back to make sure I’m receiving the message you’re sending.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do. Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered. <hr /></blockquote>Interesting note: did you notice how you likened emotional exhaustion to being so tired that your brain can’t work? Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting! Also, kind of out of the blue, you mention that you don’t give hugs. Why did you mention that? I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection between emotional exhaustion and giving hugs FOR YOU. For me, giving a hug takes some emotional energy from me and gives it to them—thus, sometimes I get “hugged out”. But that’s me. Is it somehow significant that you don’t offer hugs, or are you just not a hugger or what?? Are hugs connected to an emotional event for you, or not? I mean—is a hug emotionally significant to you? Have your feelings ever been exhausted?

<hr /></blockquote>Nope, I just don't think to give hugs. I have nothing against them. I like getting them, they feel nice, and my wife used to tell me she liked my hugs. (I'm kinda a big teddy bear, 5'11" 50" chest, 36" waist, 220#, kinda fuzzy most places, etc.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions. … I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do. But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel. I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial. However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary. (You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.) <hr /></blockquote>Well, Tony, good for you! I think you really are getting it! The point of this exercise is not to humor me—nor is it to expand your vocabulary that I am confident is quite extensive and exact. No, the point of this exercise is to expand the words you use to describe your feelings, to get you thinking about the subtle differences between some feelings, and to get you to focus and think about at least one emotion every day (other than “frustrated” “happy” and “mad”). It’s an exercise in using, growing, stretching and developing the emotions that you do have.

BTW, I’m not sure how you got the false impression that I thought you didn’t have feelings. I know you have feelings, it’s just that your thinking is dominant. In my mind I liken it to being right-handed. You still HAVE a left hand and you still can write with your left hand—it’s just that your right hand is dominant. Furthermore, I’m confident you can express your emotions just as well as I can express a thought! I have no doubt that you have deep, intense feelings—the trick is to practice conveying them and reading them (through a variety of communication levels) from others.

I tend to agree with you that the other exercises will be more beneficial in developing empathy and connecting to your emotions on a regular basis, but it is my understanding that the goal here is to strengthen the “feelings muscle” and relax the “thinking muscle” so we are going to do things that involve the emotions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by CJ:
 Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??
and the reply from Java:
 Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance. <hr /></blockquote>I’m sorry to hear you feel like that. I hope some of the mist starts to clear, some of the shock starts to wear off, and that fairly soon you are back to being in balance with who you are.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by CJ:
Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day. 
and the reply from Tony:
 fun enjoyed love disappointed satisfied <hr /></blockquote>Wow, very good job. I am impressed that you were so perceptive and observant. Now would I totally blow it if I show you some of the more subtle emotional words, or shall I allow you to bask in the glow of your success? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

“Unproductive” is an emotional word for me because it involves faint elements of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

“Reconnecting” is also an emotional word for me because connecting with people is almost an instinctual drive for an INFP. Reconnecting involves relating and linking to another person, and the way I connect to people is via emotions (and some thoughts/ideas).

“Like” is an emotional word, and I think you know that so I won’t explain it a whole lot.

“Talking” is a word that COULD be an emotional word, because when I talk, I’m usually trying to connect or explain or communicate in some way.

“Joking” and “friendly” are feeler words, because they express the concept of being playful and having that kind of relationship where you can laugh with someone. Even when the person is a co-worker and not a close, personal friend, joking and being friendly connotates a relationship that is comfortable, familiar and pleasant.

So, Tony, GREAT JOB!! I am sincerely impressed!!

<hr /></blockquote>Well, I won't argue. I will say I considered may of those words, such as unproductive. I ruled it out because it didn't really convey a feeling, but to me it was a judgment.

I was looking for words that expressed HOW you FELT. It seems I have to look deeper.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


* * * * * * * * *
In post #2,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> originally posted by Java:
 Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. <hr /></blockquote>MAN!! That is an EXCELLENT point that I had never even considered! Look at that—the student is teaching the master (giggle). Speaking purely for myself here, after I read this I gave it some consideration all day, and upon examining my own heart, I believe this is exactly what I do. I’m not sure if it’s any comfort to know that I don’t fill in with what I think people SHOULD feel—but I do fill in with what * I * would feel or what I have felt in the past. What a stunning revelation! Thank you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> …I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions. Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone. You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose. Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly? Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her. <hr /></blockquote>You know, you bring up a good point here. I think on an occasion people do project their own thoughts or feelings onto other people, but not always. Based on the way you’ve responded here though, it seems like I must have touched a nerve or something—most likely a nerve that your W hits all the time and maybe you think I’m hitting it too. Here’s the thing, Tony: why would I assume or say that you are TRYING to hurt someone? That makes no common sense to me. You have no reason that I know of to consciously make the effort to try to hurt your W. Furthermore, that I can recall, I do not remember saying anything that suggests you hurt her deliberately or with premeditation or anything!
<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I never said you. I said:

"I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions."

So I'm just making a general statement.

Seems we are both a bit defensive here. You point out my defensiveness in the following text.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


Nope, it’s my observation that you DID hurt her, but mostly because you are tougher and bigger than she is—and being tough and big is not wrong, it just IS. No, buffalos absolutely do not cruelly and with malice of forethought crush butterflies—but the fact is that by not noticing they are there and stepping a little clumsily, the buffalo can crush a butterfly and the end result is the butterfly is no longer existing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />then there was a bunch of writing that was basically self-explanatory until we came across this little paragraph, originally posted by java:
 See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly. I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflies from buffalos. Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality. How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarily the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time) and then ran out the door. So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out. So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago? This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgment, but simply my perspective on how I perceive what is going on. <hr /></blockquote>Tony, you sure are a funny person (btw, that’s a compliment). The buffalo/butterfly analogy is from the book we are reading—and while it does seem to serve its purpose as a visual image of some emotional stuff, I just think it’s funny to think I set it up to elicit sympathy for butterflies. I keep using it and using it as a way of communicating a concept, nothing more. Fact is, if a butterfly goes judo on a buffalo, he doesn’t realize it’s happening, and I can definitely relate to the feeling of trying to get a buffalo’s attention but everything I do seems ineffective. However, that doesn’t mean the buffalo is “bad” or the butterfly is “good” and neither need to change. Look, in nature if a buffalo and a butterfly really wanted to be a couple, the buffalo would have to learn to be more observant and tip toe, and the butterfly would have to beef up and be a little more thick-skinned. The buffalo would have behave in a way that seems very gentle and soft to him, and the butterfly would have to behave in a way that feels very brusque and coarse to her. She would have to learn to make a very loud noise, and he would have to learn to be quieter. He wouldn’t be able to thunder around, and she wouldn’t be able to be all delicate and flimsy.

<hr /></blockquote>I hear what you are saying about how she might feel. I do understand the point of the analogy.

Let me flesh out why I don't care for it and why I believe it elicits more sympathy for the butterfly than for the buffalo.

Seems it paints the buffalo as much more powerful and perhaps not as cultured as the butterfly. In fact, it paints the butterfly as essentially POWERLESS.

I don't think that is fair to create what appears to be a powerless metaphor.

Why not a buffalo and a whale? They are both powerful, but in their own environment. I understand it too is not a perfect analogy because the terrain shared by a whale and buffalo is probably only found at zoos, LOL.

However, in my analogy, the buffalo roams and flourishes in the logical landscape. While the whale swims in a sea full of emotional currents. Each is very powerful and very mobile in their natural environment, but each has to expend a lot of energy to remain in the environment of the other for a relatively short time.

But my point is, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the butterfly has little or no power relative to the buffalo.

I would think a liberated woman would be appalled at this metaphor.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


However, in this little world, only the buffalo has shown up for gentleness lessons. It wouldn’t make sense for me to teach the buffalo what I would say to the butterfly if she were here. The BUFFALO is here, so I teach him stuff a buffalo needs to know. BTW, if your W were here, I would teach her butterfly stuff, like exercises on how to be logical…how to narrow a whole swirl of emotions down to one sentence…how to present her feelings of tramplement in a way a buffalo would hear…etc. PLUS, I would teach the butterfly that it’s not all the buffalo’s fault. Dude, chapter one for her would be just as painful and defeating feeling for her because she participated in this too and made some MAJOR mistakes. But for now—only the buffalo is here, so I’m teaching you how to be in touch with your butterfly side.

<hr /></blockquote>I agree with what you say above.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone. <hr /></blockquote>You know, you bring up a good point there. Some “facts” do hurt people. I comprehend that you are capable of saying “she had an affair” to simply convey that it occurred—without all the feelings of going through it—but just because something doesn’t hurt you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt anyone else. OY! What a sentence! Is there an easier way to say that??? Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me.

<hr /></blockquote>As long as your feet touch the ground, you are tall enough!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

Here’s another fact for you—my exH does not find me attractive. That DOES hurt me. Subsequently, I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on “might this hurt someone? Why or why not?”

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler. Why not the other way around? Often it feels like only the thinker should change. Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work. But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker. So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler? Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times. I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers. Do many thinkers stick around here? I wonder... <hr /></blockquote>Well, a couple of things come to mind. First, what you have said here has really made me think. My exH used to say similar things (you want me to change into a feeler) and I never understood why he felt that way, because I was doing lots of work to be more of a thinker. Now, I suspect that he was reading the “self-help” books and interpreting them as you do, and they do seem to have a bit of favoritism toward feelers don’t they? Probably because self-help books are written by feelers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Second, I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’ve always interpreted relationship improvement to mean that BOTH partners need to learn about each other and BOTH partners need to change. The feelers need to make the effort to understand thinkers, and thinkers need to make the effort to understand feelers. The buffalo needs to learn how to tiptoe, and the butterfly needs to learn how to carry a fry pan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Third, you really ARE the only one here, but that does not mean you need to do “all” the work. It means that you are willing to do the work that is needed to maintain a healthy relationship—one in which you stretch to understand your partner AND your partner stretches to understand you. Finally, I don’t know if it’s rare for the feelers to try to understand the thinkers—I just think it’s rare for ANY partner to take the time to soften their heart admit that they need to do some changing. It’s SO much easier to blame your partner than to look in the mirror and admit to yourself you’re wrong.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company. <hr /></blockquote>Ohhhh…(blush). I thought I spoke to you about this concept; upon review, I wrote to Standing Together about this tool. The “W-T-F-S” format is an acronym (much like REPS). It stands for “When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___” and it can be used to communicate positive and negative comments. For example, “When you keep pointing out areas that I hadn’t considered, I think “wow, what a good point!” and I feel impressed, so I’m going to ask you to continue throwing out those good concepts. Example #2 “When you read stuff into what I’ve written, I think “I sure didn’t mean that, and I don’t think I said that!” and I feel a little sad and diminished, so I’m going to ask you to make an effort to not project or assume, and I will do the same.” It is a format that helps a feeler to narrow down what is bugging them to ONE sentence—as well as utilizing both THINKING and FEELING—as well as stating a request of your partner out loud, so that then the partners can either agree to the request, say no to the request, or suggest an alternative that they can agree on (POJA).

So here are my acronyms:

For a thorough apology, do REPS
R—responsibility (take personal responsibility)
E—empathy (try to understand how the other person might feel)
P—plan (offer a plan to change or a suggestion)
S—safety (give your partner permission to do what they must to feel safe)

For a positive or negative statement
W--When you….
T—I think…
F—I Feel…
S—So, I’m going to ask…

Oh my! It's getting late quickly! We better get to our assignments:

1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? I took a teleclass and learned how to do some computer programming stuff. See??? Fun and THINKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

<hr /></blockquote>Well, in the past 24 hours, I went to Bible study and talked afterwards.

I went to lunch with "the guys" today, and we looked at the ladies there. (No we didn't got to Hooters.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

2) Vocabulary. Today's emotional vocabulary word is "Suspicious." Remember, I'm not looking for a dictionary definition here--more like what does it mean to you and how do you feel when you feel suspicious? Can you identify with feeling suspicious? Are you suspicious or trusting by nature?

<hr /></blockquote>People who make emotional appeals cause me to be suspicious. That's right, televangelists, salesmen, commercials, all of it makes an emotional appeal or tries to make you feel inadequate.

I know I'm backing into the answer as I'm telling you how or when I'm inclined to feel suspicious.

It depends, in some situations, I'm suspicious, others, I'm trusting.

I'm sure this will not be a shock to you, but when I get suspicious, I start gathering facts before making a decision.

Or I just tune out.

Infomercial at 2AM telling me that if I buy your package of CD's and books to become a millionare in my bathrobe and boxers <click> ahhh, I found the three stooges, I love those guys... Yep, I tuned out the emotional appeal of the informercial for the more scholarly work of Moe, Larry and Curly. (Never really liked Curly Joe, how about you?)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


3) Check-ins. Did you check in with yourself today? Morning, lunch, dinner, and bedtime? Did you notice how you felt at that moment? Was it easy to tell how you felt, or did you have to get out of thinker mode long enough to feel? Did emotional vocabular come to you fairly easily, or was it hard to find words other than "frustrated" to describe how you felt? Did you jot some notes down like I asked?

<hr /></blockquote>Morning 3/10 -- Peaceful
Lunch 3/10 -- Happy
Afternoon 3/10 -- A bit stressed (putting together a presentation for tomorrow)
Evening 3/10 -- Not stressed.

That's right, no real emotion, no state, just relaxed now that the presentation is nearly ready. (I'm going back later to proof my slides.) But no real feeling, or certainly nothing strong. Nothing like the feelings I had when my D was born or while I made love to my wife.

So, I can anticipate what you might ask about that. How did I feel when I made love to my wife. I felt like we were really united, we were one person. I was very thankful for the opportunity to make love to her, I felt complete.

How did I feel when my D was born. Incredible joy. The only days that were more joyful were when I accepted Jesus as my savior at 10yo and my wedding day.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


4) Empathetic Listening. Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable is just uncomfortable for me, but I have to discipline myself to do it because it's good for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed.

So...Can you see the feeling words in that paragraph? Are there any that might be subtle emotional words (sometimes they convey a feeling and sometimes they don't)? What about the message--can you hear the emotional message in the paragraph? What is it? Can you identify? Do you ever feel that way? Can you imagine how I might be feeling and put yourself in my shoes? What are some things you could do or say to offer comfort or communicate that you understand? Can you use the W-T-F-S format??

<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. {expresses a preference} I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable {vulnerability is a feeling} is just uncomfortable { <---See you say so right there } for me, but I have to { Indicates that this feels like work and not fun } discipline myself to do it because it's good {again a preference or something you find valuable} for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. {just kidding, very scary is certainly a feeling expression } I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? {You have thoughts about how you MIGHT feel} I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed. {Again, you have thoughts about how you might be disappointed. You express feelings and perhaps even feel feelings such as disappointment about things that haven't even occurred. This is what you are trying to tell me about my W, she is afraid SHE will be disappointed again.}

Ok,

The emotional message, you are really uncomfortable with opening yourself up to me or to anyone in such a public setting. You mention this is your least favorite part.

If I understand what you are saying, you are not comfortable talking about yourself. Is that what you are saying?

It certainly is very difficult to know whom to trust. It seems those we trust the most, we give the most power to harm us. It must be tough to balance that fear with a desire to connect with other people on a more than just superficial fashion.

Let me try the W-T-F-S stuff...
“When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___”

When you express your concerns about vulnerability, I think you may not trust me, I feel concerned, so I'm going to ask you to keep being as open and honest as you are comfortable with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


Your true and faithful friend,

CJ <hr /></blockquote>These sure are getting long. I considered thinning this out a bit as we are getting some rather long posts now 8^)

Thanks again,

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 I am very familiar with Georgia summers. I spent a summer at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, as well as three weeks in August at Ft Benning, learning to jump out of perfectly good <hr /></blockquote>Oh good. Then you are at least familar with the concept I am talking about--a concept that most in the frozen Great White North would be unable to comprehend! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm not the kind of person who exists well in that kind of hot, humid environment. It feels wet on my skin all the time, and it's muggy! Anyway, one way that I learned to survive and kind of feel comfortable is to sit on the porch at sunset and early evening, basically sit still, fan myself very slowly with a hand fan, and drink a lemonade or Arnold Palmer. When you sit that still in the heat, any whisp of a breeze feels so soothing and cooling, and it doesn't have to be a big wind--just a gentle breath of wind is good.

This is similar to what I think you need to do to hear God's voice. Right now your life is hot and humid and muggy and moving and frantic. I believe you need to come to a stop, sit on the porch, enjoy the sunset, SIT STILL and feel the gentle breath of God. THEN you'll hear Him, whispering in the trees. Tony, trust me on this one...be still.

CJ

Good evening, Tony! How are you today?? I am energized, but of course it is my power time of day (night). However, I think I feel particularly energized today because I'm really gaining momentum on getting my coaching going, and I'm SO excited!

(Oh man--bad song on the radio. "Open Arms" by Journey. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Clearing throat. Well...let's get right down to it, shall we??

I asked you if you were getting tired translating into Empathetic English, and you replied:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nope, playing with words and conversing doesn't make me tired. Quite the opposite. After Bible Study last night, I spent about 60-90 minutes talking with one of the men there about computers, cars, marriage, God, you name it. ...I was energized and didn't realize time passed so quickly. <hr /></blockquote>Oh, you're right--of course. I forgot you are an "E" and E's gain energy by being with and talking to and whatever with other people. I'm an "I" and I LOVE people and live to relate to other people, but it expends my energy. I have to recharge my battery so that I CAN go use it on being with people!

*****

Then I asked you if there was some reason why you mentioned that you don't give hugs, and you said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nope, I just don't think to give hugs. I have nothing against them. I like getting them, they feel nice, and my wife used to tell me she liked my hugs. (I'm kinda a big teddy bear, 5'11" 50" chest, 36" waist, 220#, kinda fuzzy most places, etc.) <hr /></blockquote>Boy, I don't know, but it sounds to me like you were created to hug, Tony! I'm envisioning sort of a peach-fuzzy gnome--is that about right? haha! May I ask--do you not think to offer hugs, or are you uncomfortable offering them, or are they just about as interesting as the dictionary?

*****

In the next part, you wrote about my first "empathetic listening" paragraph, and the emotional words that you found (GOOD JOB!)--and the additional, more subtle emotional words that I mentioned:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />[/qb] Well, I won't argue. I will say I considered may of those words, such as unproductive. I ruled it out because it didn't really convey a feeling, but to me it was a judgment.

I was looking for words that expressed HOW you FELT. It seems I have to look deeper.[/qb]<hr /></blockquote>Aaaaaahhh, Grasshopper...most wise. Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you that the additional words I suggested were not traditional "feeling" words. They were words that might have been considered "neutral" but that carried an emotional connoctation. Remember, Tony, our goal here is to STRETCH your emotional muscle and strengthen your empathetic skills.

*****

There was quite a discussion back and forth regarding people assigning their emotions (and I suppose thoughts) to another person, aka: projection. I had said that I had not previously considered that, and after looking at myself I could see that I did do that to people--assigning them the emotions I would probably have if I were in their situation. We were both hit nerves a little, but I think we both realize now that we have some nerves that are a little raw.

*****

Here's a fun suggestion you make:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Let me flesh out why I don't care for it and why I believe it elicits more sympathy for the butterfly than for the buffalo.

Seems it paints the buffalo as much more powerful and perhaps not as cultured as the butterfly. In fact, it paints the butterfly as essentially POWERLESS.

I don't think that is fair to create what appears to be a powerless metaphor.

Why not a buffalo and a whale? They are both powerful, but in their own environment. I understand it too is not a perfect analogy because the terrain shared by a whale and buffalo is probably only found at zoos, LOL.

However, in my analogy, the buffalo roams and flourishes in the logical landscape. While the whale swims in a sea full of emotional currents. Each is very powerful and very mobile in their natural environment, but each has to expend a lot of energy to remain in the environment of the other for a relatively short time.

But my point is, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the butterfly has little or no power relative to the buffalo.

I would think a liberated woman would be appalled at this metaphor.<hr /></blockquote>Oh my what an intriguing alternative. Okay, here's my thought: I like the comparison of each being strong and powerful in their own environment, and each having to make great sacrifices to be with the other in their environment. I don't like the fact that this is not how it feels AT ALL. I can not speak for your W, Tony, but I did not feel like a big, strong, powerful whale free to be myself in my own environment--equally regarded and equally large.

I also did not feel powerless though. I felt like if I were left to be myself, just as I like to be, I would be the happiest, most carefree, beautiful, delicate butterfly--cruising on the air, and landing on flowers. What a lovely life!!! I did not feel or seek "fearful" power from being the master of my surroundings--I moreso wanted the power that comes from being exactly the creature I was created to be: a butterfly.

I'm not powerless against the buffalo. I can sit on his nose and tickle him---I can land on his ear and talk to him--I can ride on his back and let him care for me--I can flutter my wings and get the flies off his fur--I can give him butterfly kisses with my eyelashes. There's a lot I can do that he can not! I can soar to the heights and he is always on the ground; I can flash my colors in the sun and he is always brown; I can flutter and be cute and he has to be a big tough buffalo; I can fit under a leaf and stay dry in the rain and he has to stand there and get wet; I can fly away if I'm in danger and he has to stay and fight and maybe get hurt.

I'm not sure if you can tell, but I really identify with the butterfly a LOT more than I identify with being a whale. To me, the whole point of the analogy is not who's more refined or who's "powerful" or not...it's that if each animal is being exactly the animal they are created to be, that the buffalo can inadvertantly cause serious damage to a butterfly. The buffalo is who he is: a strong, steady, dependable, majestic, handsome creature of the land--and the butterfly is who she is: a gentle, fragile, smart and beautiful, resourceful creature of the air.

(HERE'S THE BIG POINT) BUT... if they choose to be a couple together, they both need to adjust their strengths and weaknesses to the other!!

Hey...maybe YOU aren't a buffalo!

*****

I said in my post: "Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me." and you replied:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />As long as your feet touch the ground, you are tall enough!<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> giggle. Can I roll my eyes??

*****

I wrote: "I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on 'might this hurt someone? Why or why not?' " and I'd like to remember that and add that to our empathetic listening assignment tonight.

*****

Then we discussed the assignments. I wrote:
1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? ...What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well, in the past 24 hours, I went to Bible study and talked afterwards. ...I went to lunch with "the guys" today, and we looked at the ladies there. (No we didn't got to Hooters.)<hr /></blockquote>YAY!! That DOES sound like fun!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, I love Bible studdy, because I LOVE to learn! Second, I love to talk (no DUH). Third I love lunch with guys...(giggle). Oh, man, I'm in a playful mood tonight. I'm glad you actually had some enjoyable times Tony. Good for you.

*****

Then, regarding assignment #2) Vocabulary: "Suspicious", you wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />People who make emotional appeals cause me to be suspicious. That's right, televangelists, salesmen, commercials, all of it makes an emotional appeal or tries to make you feel inadequate. ...I know I'm backing into the answer as I'm telling you how or when I'm inclined to feel suspicious.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm...did you notice that you equate an emotional appeal to feeling inadequate? Why is that? I mean, does one mean the other in your view of the world? In my opinion, a person can be QUITE adequate as a parent, spouse, worker, and charitable-spiritual being and still appeal to their emotions to give just a little more than is "comfortable." But I digress. I'm not trying to jangle your raw nerve here, Tony, but could this be a clue to something bigger--that emotions and inadequacy are related??

to continue:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Infomercial at 2AM telling me that if I buy your package of CD's and books to become a millionare in my bathrobe and boxers <click> ahhh, I found the three stooges, I love those guys... Yep, I tuned out the emotional appeal of the informercial for the more scholarly work of Moe, Larry and Curly. (Never really liked Curly Joe, how about you?)<hr /></blockquote>Haha! At 2am in the morning, I am talking to you the next morning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Okay, I have to admit you have a point--when the infomercials come on appealing to my pocketbook I tune them out. I guess I just don't feel inadequate for not needing the Deal-A-Meal though!

Regarding the Stooges, I am a classic gal. I like Moe Howard, Larry Fine, and Curly Howard--and Larry is my fav. Once Curly was gone, I never could quite get into Shemp, and Joe Besser and Curly Joe weren't even Stooges in my book, even though they performed and did live stuff in front of audiences.

*****

Regarding assignment #3) Check-ins you wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Morning 3/10 -- Peaceful
Lunch 3/10 -- Happy
Afternoon 3/10 -- A bit stressed (putting together a presentation for tomorrow)
Evening 3/10 -- Not stressed.

That's right, no real emotion, no state, just relaxed now that the presentation is nearly ready. (I'm going back later to proof my slides.) But no real feeling, or certainly nothing strong. <hr /></blockquote>Do you think feelings should feel "strong"? I'm just curious. Boy, it sounds like you had a pretty good day, emotionally. What made the difference? Was it hard to get in touch with your feelings, or easy? "Happy" is not an allowed vocabulary word (remember?) so may I suggest content or satisfied or joyful or ecstatic? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> STRETCH yourself!!

I'm a little surprised to hear you had no emotion this evening. I wonder what that feels like...maybe like the times when I have a quiet mind and just enjoy sitting with no thought, I suppose. It's like being in second gear and driving 45mph--just cruising...neither going fast nor slow.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nothing like the feelings I had when my D was born or while I made love to my wife.<hr /></blockquote>WHOA!! Boy, Tony, it feels like that only once or twice in your lifetime--and even making love is a very special, sacred thing. I hope that's not the standard to which you hold all other feelings! OY VEY!!

*****

And finally, regarding assignment #4 empathetic listening, you indicated some of the emotional words within the text (good idea--very immediate and interactive).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. {expresses a preference} I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable {vulnerability is a feeling} is just uncomfortable { <---See you say so right there } for me, but I have to { Indicates that this feels like work and not fun } discipline myself to do it because it's good {again a preference or something you find valuable} for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. {just kidding, very scary is certainly a feeling expression } I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? {You have thoughts about how you MIGHT feel} I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed. {Again, you have thoughts about how you might be disappointed. You express feelings and perhaps even feel feelings such as disappointment about things that haven't even occurred. This is what you are trying to tell me about my W, she is afraid SHE will be disappointed again.}<hr /></blockquote>Very, very good job. I see you are really putting some effort into this and working hard. I'm so pleased! You're looking for the words that have emotional definitions AND looking for the words that tend to indicate or infer a feeling too. Good!

Now, regarding the emotional message, I hope you understand that this was partially (about 70/30) an assignment and partially an expression of how I really feel. I just AM an open person, and I have accepted the fact that part of the price I pay for being open is that occasionally I'm going to be hurt. To me, it's worth it to be open--the pay off is worth more than the isolation of being cut off.

However, in interpreting what I wrote, you did an EXCELLENT job.

You noticed that I felt uncomfortable opening up (I'm more cautious than I used to be). You made the leap from just being uncomfortable with you personally to being uncomfortable with the public forum, and that's a good association/link!! You mirrored back that you thought I was saying I was uncomfortable talking about myself, and then just to confirm, you asked me if that's what I meant. (EXTRA CREDIT FOR THAT ONE!!)

One part that you wrote, I want to actually address in my own voice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />It certainly is very difficult to know whom to trust. It seems those we trust the most, we give the most power to harm us. It must be tough to balance that fear with a desire to connect with other people on a more than just superficial fashion.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not going to kid you, Tony. It is often difficult for me to know whom to trust. I tend to WANT to trust people. One thing for which I am very thankful is that I have learned how to judge trustworthiness a lot more logically because of my ex's A. If the words match the actions, then I can trust. If the words do not match the actions, then do not trust.

And for me, it is a FORMIDABLE task to balance the fear of trusting and the desire to connect with people. I WANT to trust them!! I really want to connect to people and see the good in them and believe in them. Sigh. This is a good example of an instance where my brain must outweigh my feelings...even if I FEEL something, I need to trust my head and intuition. My feelings WILL eventually follow.

*****

You wrote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Let me try the W-T-F-S stuff...
“When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___”

When you express your concerns about vulnerability, I think you may not trust me, I feel concerned, so I'm going to ask you to keep being as open and honest as you are comfortable with.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, you are a model student, Tony! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Can I clone you?? heehee That was a great w-t-f-s, very well applied and very well said. Thanks!

My next post will be the assignments for today.

CJ

1) Fun: What did you do today that was pleasant? When? Did anyone do it with you? What is something fun you would like to plan for the weekend?

I know you don't ask me, but do you mind if I tell you what I do for fun? I went to my ladies' support group tonight, and it was AWESOME. I love (love, love, love, love) helping women who are abuse survivors--my heart just does a little happy dance. I joked with my co-workers all day today because I love to kid around. Imagine that...a FUNNY office manager! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I played toes with my puppy (he's so funny and scraggley looking) and I scratched my cat. I listened to my music.

2) Vocabulary: today's word is "confident". How does confidence FEEL? When are you confident? What makes you feel confident? Is confidence a positive emotion or a prideful emotion? Do you identify yourself as confident?

3) Check in: I'm going to be more specific this time...check in when you are driving on your way to work--when you are at lunch--when you are getting home--and right before you go to bed.

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 1) Fun: What did you do today that was pleasant? When? Did anyone do it with you? What is something fun you would like to plan for the weekend?

<hr /></blockquote>Fun, not really sure I've taken time to have fun today. I did enjoy my presentation. I got to talk for two hours 8^) briefing my the boss of my boss on my three largest customers.

Well, I did work out. Yes, buff is becoming an all encompasing word, LOL. I spent some time reading last months Car and Driver (or was it Road and Track) with the 2005 Corvette and Mustang on the cover.

I think pretty soon, I'll be back to 90 minute workouts. Pre-Cancer and pre-meeting my wife, I used to do aerobics 3 days a week. I did a 60 minute step class followed by a 30 minute abdominal class. I never asked any of the ladies out. I got asked out a few times, and another pair questioned my sexuality since they didn't see me leering or trying to pick them up.

I just smiled and said I was straight and pretty picky.

So I guess I had fun.

Oh! I had an old jar of peanut butter, almost empty, so I turned my dog loose on it. He loves peanut butter. I recall putting peanut butter on the belly of SD and then having him lick it off. That was hilarious.

Well tonight, I let him have the jar as I said, and he struggled, but got his tongue down there and licked it all out.

Then I saved about $7 on groceries on a $77 dollar ticket, so I got probably two weeks worth of food for me for under $70, out the door.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by CJ:

I know you don't ask me, but do you mind if I tell you what I do for fun? I went to my ladies' support group tonight, and it was AWESOME. I love (love, love, love, love) helping women who are abuse survivors--my heart just does a little happy dance. I joked with my co-workers all day today because I love to kid around. Imagine that...a FUNNY office manager! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I played toes with my puppy (he's so funny and scraggley looking) and I scratched my cat. I listened to my music.
<hr /></blockquote>I do suppose that is rather rude. I don't know if it is from being self centered, or simply so many failed attempts at getting DW to share with me what she is doing, say with the girls, that I just don't bother anymore.

I dunno if it is chicken and egg thing or what. Maybe I never asked so she never told. However, it's more likely that I got tired of asking because I a conversation would go like this:

jSC: So what did you and the girls do?

Mrs jSC: We were out.

jSC: Where?

Mrs jSC: The store.

jSC: Which store?

Mrs jSC: The grocery store...

And so on. So I guess I'm just tired of asking anymore. Of course you read my writings. I posted my grocery list two weeks ago. BTW, if you can find that thread, I paid $109.51 before taxes on 2-26-04.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by CJ:
2) Vocabulary: today's word is "confident". How does confidence FEEL? When are you confident? What makes you feel confident? Is confidence a positive emotion or a prideful emotion? Do you identify yourself as confident?
<hr /></blockquote>Confident. How does that feel? I feel tall. I recall when I was a young Lieutenant in the Army standing before my platoon, feeling like I was on top of the world. I was in charge! I felt 100 feet tall.

I'm confident most of the time. It's probably easier to say when I'm not confident. When I'm one on one with someone. Perhaps I'm afraid to open up. But I've always been more comfortable standing in front of a group of people and talking than having a heart to heart with one person.

My confidence sometimes manifests itself or appears to others as pride. However, it is mostly positive.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by CJ:
3) Check in: I'm going to be more specific this time...check in when you are driving on your way to work--when you are at lunch--when you are getting home--and right before you go to bed.

<hr /></blockquote>This is part I really hate. I'm not sure I really feel anything.

I drove to work. I listened to the local Christian radio station, but I don't even remember what the lesson was about. Oh yeah, it was about the creation story.

Lunch was a fast dash from the office to meet with a co-worker having issues with a machine he was struggling to repair. I suppose there was some irritation as well. Not really mad, and certainly not happy.

I met this co-worker at Burger King. He ordered, I ordered a Whopper w/Cheese and Onion Rings. Well the guy two persons after me in line ordered TWO Whopper w/Cheese sandwhiches and was servered BEFORE me.

So I suggested that if they didn't have the onion rings ready, that they just give me the sandwhich. (Using logic, I figured they filled the order they could fill and got that customer out the door while they were waiting to cook my onion rings.) The manager says, Oh, I'll make your SANDWICH and makes me a fresh one, and goes and pulls out Onion Rings that had been sitting there all along.

So I thanked him, but was a little puzzled why the later customer got served first. It certainly didn't ruin my day, nor did I throw any sort of fit. I was just puzzled.

Dinner time, well, it came late as I mentioned before, after 7PM, as I finished my workout around 7pm. No real feelings there either. I don't really know how to explain it. I just grilled my salmon. Made a salad, adding some fresh tomato and onion, and drank a large mug of water.

Did some grocery shopping, was flirtatous with the lady at the Customer Service counter who told me two weeks ago all men were pigs (joking, I think?) So I felt a little flirtaous as I pushed my shopping cart full of fruit, vegetables, meat and very few bread or prepared food products.

(I did get a FREE candybar, and a FREE pack of tic-tacs with my coupons.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by CJ:

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.

CJ <hr /></blockquote>I'll add more later. I suddenly hit a wall, so I'll be up at 4:00am reading and doing the rest of my assignment.

However, I sorta did some of it in an e-mail already.

"No comments on the jokes?" asks a curious jSC

L8R,

Buff

Tony,

I'm not really in the mindset to study or even really to talk all that much. Can we go a little light on that tonite?

Let's talk cars. I read a wonderful article on the way Ford is reviving the Mustang GT--that was Road and Track I think. Also, my favorite article was a comparison of the new BMW and the Benz CLK series! Yowza! Those cars are BUILT!! There was a good little article on the new 2005 C6 Corvette convertible, and how it's a little smaller and tighter. Yum. My son is an absolute Corvette FREAK. I gotta stay up to date! Hey...did ya hear? Mazda is spicing up the Miata! Oh, I love those zippy little cars!! Just imagine the cutest little hot car ever with the smallest little middle-aged woman ever! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I like cars. Thanks for cheering me up. I think I might check out www.maximum-cars.com for a few minutes of enjoyment.

Sigh. Okay...here's the truth. I just don't feel like being chipper. I'm off to read my car mags and think about restoring a GTO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CJ

[ March 12, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]

CJ,

I got a late start today. So I'll come back to this later. It's probably good to take a break anyway.

I haven't forgotten, I've just not come up with the time to give it much thought yet.

We have 4 of our 6 SSE's out today in various and sundry fashion so it could become insanely busy at the drop of a hat.

Tony

I started to work on this and have to give it up, but I want to leave my text here...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by CJ: 

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally Posted by CJ:


5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.

CJ <hr /></blockquote>

This last post didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Did I miss something or did it not post right or something??

Did you have a good weekend off? Are you about ready to resume your studies??

Let's go over the 4 normal assignments:

1) Fun

2) Vocabulary

3) Check-in

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic response with emphasis on "How might the writer be feeling" and "Does the writer hurt?"

Did you do anything fun over the weekend?? Remember, you don't necessarily have to write what you did, just remember to let yourself have some joy in your life every day.

I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".

I realize that check-in is difficult for you because there are some times when you do not feel as if you have an emotion at that time; however I would like you to keep checking in with yourself four times a day--and try to dig a little deeper. Do you feel something but your thoughts are so strong that they drown it out? Do you feel something that you are purposely trying to NOT feel?

And finally, empathetic listening and empathetic responding. This is going to be a trick, Tony, and you'll understand when you read it. Just do your best to listen with emotional understanding and try to respond with what you think the writer is feeling:

"I usually work 8am - 5pm, but tomorrow I have a 6:30am meeting I HAVE to go to or it will look bad to my boss. So I asked my exH if he would mind driving the kids to school in the morning and he said he wanted them to stay at his house EVERY Sunday night! I just need some help, and now he's trying to take my kids away from me! Why can't he ever just help me and make my life a little easier without throwing it up in my face? If I ever admit I can't do it all myself, he uses it as a weapon against me, and yet I CAN'T do it all by myself and it's killing me. I feel so inadequate. If I give him an inch, he never says thank you--he takes a mile! AARRGGHH!!!"

So Tony, what emotions does this writer feel? Dig deeper and look for some of the more subtle emotional words. And Tony, how might you respond to this writer to indicate that you can understand how they feel? What words could you use?

Stretch yourself here, buddy. TRY--you can do it. You are doing so well, and I am so impressed with your progress! Let's get going on our week.

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 This last post didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Did I miss something or did it not post right or something??

<hr /></blockquote>Nothing wrong on your end. I started to finish up my response and then was called away, so I just posted what I had, which was the message broken up into two quotes of yours I was going to answer.

Then I got busy with life, and late night is not a good time for me personally to try to do an inventory, checkin or vocabulary lessons.

I NEVER, and I do mean NEVER pulled all nighters to study. I'd get up very early in the morning if I wanted to study some more, but NEVER an all nighter to study.

I did pull a few of them to complete programming or other design projects, but not to just study. What is the point of wearing out your brain that way?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


Did you have a good weekend off? Are you about ready to resume your studies??

<hr /></blockquote>Yes. I'm ready to return to my mental, physical, and emotional workout routines. Gotta be buff in a well rounded fashion.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


Let's go over the 4 normal assignments:

1) Fun

2) Vocabulary

3) Check-in

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic response with emphasis on "How might the writer be feeling" and "Does the writer hurt?"

Did you do anything fun over the weekend?? Remember, you don't necessarily have to write what you did, just remember to let yourself have some joy in your life every day.

<hr /></blockquote>Well, I had my daughter the whole weekend, so we had a lot of fun.

Friday night we just cuddled on the couch most of the evening, snacking on popcorn and watched some Disney cartoons. I put her in the bathtub to splash around for a while, did a devotional with her and put her to bed.

Saturday, we cleaned up a bit because a friend of hers was going to spend the day with us. We then went out to Chuck E. Cheese's where I got in my fix to be competitive (not competing with the girls) but against the games. Rolled a 430 in skee-ball but couldn't get to the magical 450 and the bonus tickets. However, we did win 832 tickets so we brought home two bags full of plastic junk.

The girls played in the back yard with the dog and each other, then came inside for dress up before I took D's friend back home.

We had dinner, watched a Disney movie, ate popcorn and went to bed.

On Sunday, pretty much the same thing, went to church, out to lunch and I then spent a couple of hours in the back yard with Camy. She tried to help me rake the yard. (I have tons of gumballs and a few leaves and twigs that need policing up) and then I tried to listen to cartalk for about an hour.

She wanted no part of that, and kept bugging me about hanging a different swing on the swing set. I've been trying to work on her respect for others and showing her boundaries, so I did something I've done before. I told her I would hang the swing after the show was over. (It was about 1/3rd done when she asked.) She went away and then came back, so finally I told her that I did say I would do it after the show, and I would tell her when the show was over so she didn't need to keep asking, but that if she persisted in asking, that I would NOT hang the swing.

Well about 10 minutes later she came back and asked, and I had to enforce the boundary condition I set up.

She was mad, and I told her that I would hang it next time she was here now.

Perhaps I should have just recorded the show and listened to it later. However, sometimes Daddys need a break from a non-stop 5yo girl as well.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".
<hr /></blockquote>CJ, I can relate to this word. Gee, how do I start. I never met my father face to face since I could talk. I guess there was some time I "saw" him in the court house during the paternity suit, but I'm pretty sure I was more interested in a binkie or a bottle than him.

I did finally speak to him after tracking him down on the day after Thanksgiving last year. I've spent more time in correspondance with my step-mom than with him.

Or is the the feeling that I'm not close to my mom. In fact, when I wanted her to just listen to me about this whole matter, maybe offer some perspective from a womans POV, she only wanted to talk about her computer problems. Or the fact that she worked some strange hours and left me with my great great aunt and uncle most of the time, until I was about 13 and could essentially take care of myself.

Or is it when I found out that W was lying to me about there being someone else?

Oh this is one I've felt nearly everyday of my life or at least known it was there. My therapist says that I'm very self reliant because of this. That I'm very hard on myself because I've had to be in order to survive, physically and emotionally.

So feeling abandoned feels like I am alone. Now in my HEAD I know that God is there with me, but often in my heart I don't feel this.

Maybe this is why I have such a hard time trusting God? I've been so let down, so disappointed by many of the people in my life. People that are supposed to love and care for me, that it's hard for me to trust.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


I realize that check-in is difficult for you because there are some times when you do not feel as if you have an emotion at that time; however I would like you to keep checking in with yourself four times a day--and try to dig a little deeper. Do you feel something but your thoughts are so strong that they drown it out? Do you feel something that you are purposely trying to NOT feel?

<hr /></blockquote>Well, I can check in now, after writing what I wrote above. Tears are streaming down my face right now as I write, as those feelings that I'm alone facing all of this take over. It's a mix of that and anger. Anger with myself for not being more sensitive and less self-centered, and frustration that W doesn't see what this is doing to me or how I don't want to be so hard shelled and apparently insensive. Confusion as to how someone who is supposedly so sensitive and caring could act as if my feelings don't matter and further confused as to why she would want to hide her feelings from me, or why she wouldn not want to give me feedback when I ask her about things such as how what I do impacts her, or even just answering the message about Easter Sunday.

It's the confusion that just makes me want to give up on the relationship. I don't need more frustration and confusion in my life, and if I look at the physical aspect of it all, I'm self sufficient, and am not sure I want to open my heart to yet another person and risk abandonment again.

I want THIS relationship to work. For once I'd like a relationship with someone I love to work without that person wholly abandoning me.

But I know in my head that God had given me everything I need. Maybe not every desire of my heart, but everything I need right now.

But that knowledge doesn't calm my troubled heart at most times, and that is one of my daily struggles.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


And finally, empathetic listening and empathetic responding. This is going to be a trick, Tony, and you'll understand when you read it. Just do your best to listen with emotional understanding and try to respond with what you think the writer is feeling:

"I usually work 8am - 5pm, but tomorrow I have a 6:30am meeting I HAVE to go to or it will look bad to my boss. So I asked my exH if he would mind driving the kids to school in the morning and he said he wanted them to stay at his house EVERY Sunday night! I just need some help, and now he's trying to take my kids away from me! Why can't he ever just help me and make my life a little easier without throwing it up in my face? If I ever admit I can't do it all myself, he uses it as a weapon against me, and yet I CAN'T do it all by myself and it's killing me. I feel so inadequate. If I give him an inch, he never says thank you--he takes a mile! AARRGGHH!!!"

So Tony, what emotions does this writer feel? Dig deeper and look for some of the more subtle emotional words. And Tony, how might you respond to this writer to indicate that you can understand how they feel? What words could you use?

Stretch yourself here, buddy. TRY--you can do it. You are doing so well, and I am so impressed with your progress! Let's get going on our week.

CJ <hr /></blockquote>When you say "and now he's trying to take my kids away from me!" I think you are being a bit selfish if I may be so bold. My heart goes out for this guy, I feel like I identify with him. So I ask you to consider, are they your kids and your kids alone, or are they the children of both you and your husband.

When you say things like weapon or inadequate, that you can't do it on your own, I think you view this as a competition. I feel your pain, but I also have to wonder if it is self-inflicted. So I ask you, why are you competing with him? Do you derive your self worth by being a better parent than he does? What is wrong with rejoycing that you have an exH who is happy to be part of the lives of your children?

I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, because I hear you are angry, however, I feel some sympathy for your children. They probably just want to spend time with your exH. How do they feel about spending Sunday nights with him?

It's hard for me to be very sympathetic or empathetic with you because I'm in his shoes. So I hope you will accept my acknowledement of how you feel and my earnest reflections on the feelings of others. I do know this must hurt deeply for you. You lost someone you love, so are you afraid you will lose your children to him as well? Like I said, I don't know exactly how you feel. What I do know is that treating it as a competition is probably more harmful than good.

So finally, the only thing I can suggest is that you check your motives. Do your feelings really have the best interests of the children at heart, or are you trying to protect your own heart?

It's a tough situation you are in, divorce is tough. But I just want to remind you that it's not only tough on you, it is tough on the entire family.

This is probably not the empathetic response you wanted, however, it is what is on my heart right now.

Tony

Tony,

You're a cutie. I am at work and cannot write a response to your entire post, but I need to remind you of something. Just because I wrote it in my post does not mean it is "me" talking--nor does it mean that's what I think or feel or do. When I write empathetic listening/empathetic response paragraphs, sometimes it's my own words, and sometimes I am trying to stretch you a little and I write what I imagine someone else might be thinking/feeling. In my post above, I wrote what I imagined your W might be thinking/feeling, and thus I was hoping you might practice responding empathetically to her. I used her voice in a literary sense--not my own.

FYI: I have on occasion had the fear that my exH is trying to "take the kids" but I recognize that it is a triggered fear response and my own issue, not his or theirs. When I feel that way, I'm usually feeling insecure about something else, and I remind myself of all I've done for my kids, remind myself that they love me and always will, and remind myself that they are not only free to love their dad--I encourage it.

Soooo...9 times out of 10, when I feel that way, it is my problem and I need to work with myself about feeling insecure.

More later, but ((hugs)) and thanks for being brave enough to stand up to me and tell me the truth even if it might not be what I wantto hear. Good job!

CJ

CJ,

I know what you were doing. I wrote what I probably would really say if the conversation was a conversation and not exchanged messages on a message board.

Plus, it's exactly something I've heard. When I told her I wanted more time with our daughter and that I think it's reasonable that I have more than one weekend every two weeks her response, verbatim was, "Why are you trying to take away my daughter?"

I guess it is hard for me to be sympathetic, empathetic or whatever when I feel like I'm speaking with a deranged selfish person.

I guess I DON'T see how spending time with my daughter is TAKING her away from her.

I guess the logical part of me wants to say, let's see. You moved out without discussing this with me, you informed me that you were taking our daughter, and now you want to divorce.

I really don't see my desire to spend more time with our daughter as me taking her away from you. In fact, I think she has essentially taken our daughter away from me. I used to be able to see her everyday. Now, I may or may not get to talk to her on the phone, let alone see her.

So tell me, how do I become empathetic and understanding when the facts contradict what she is emoting?

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Nothing wrong on your end. I started to finish up my response and then was called away, so I just posted what I had, which was the message broken up into two quotes of yours I was going to answer.

Then I got busy with life, and late night is not a good time for me personally to try to do an inventory, checkin or vocabulary lessons.<hr /></blockquote>OK—cool. I was just checking if my feelings got in the way of my logic again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I NEVER, and I do mean NEVER pulled all nighters to study. I'd get up very early in the morning if I wanted to study some more, but NEVER an all nighter to study. …I did pull a few of them to complete programming or other design projects, but not to just study. What is the point of wearing out your brain that way? <hr /></blockquote>Oh BOY are we ever opposites! I think I pull and all-nighter EVERY night. If I try to wake up early in the morning, it hurts and feels like I have the flu—but I can stay up all night easily. In fact, if I need to be up at 3am or 4am, I just stay up all night because it’s easier for me. Well, different strokes for different folks I guess.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She … kept bugging me about hanging a different swing on the swing set. I've been trying to work on her respect for others and showing her boundaries, so I did something I've done before. I told her I would hang the swing after the show was over. (It was about 1/3rd done when she asked.) She went away and then came back, so finally I told her that I did say I would do it after the show, and I would tell her when the show was over so she didn't need to keep asking, but that if she persisted in asking, that I would NOT hang the swing. … Well about 10 minutes later she came back and asked, and I had to enforce the boundary condition I set up. … She was mad, and I told her that I would hang it next time she was here now. … Perhaps I should have just recorded the show and listened to it later. However, sometimes Daddys need a break from a non-stop 5yo girl as well.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, Daddy’s sure do need a break from their princess every now and then, and princesses need to learn to respect Daddy-time, so don’t beat yourself up over this. Ya done good. You were firm and consistent without being abusive, and this is exactly the kind of discipline a child needs. Thanks for being such a good dad!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Originally posted by CJ:
 I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".

and the response by Tony:
 CJ, I can relate to this word. Gee, how do I start? I never met my father face to face since I could talk. … Or is the feeling that I'm not close to my mom. In fact, when I wanted her to just listen to me about this whole matter, maybe offer some perspective from a womans POV, she only wanted to talk about her computer problems. Or the fact that she worked some strange hours and left me with my great great aunt and uncle most of the time, until I was about 13 and could essentially take care of myself. … Or is it when I found out that W was lying to me about there being someone else?

Oh this is one I've felt nearly everyday of my life or at least known it was there. My therapist says that I'm very self reliant because of this...that I'm very hard on myself—because I've had to be in order to survive, physically and emotionally.

So feeling abandoned feels like I am alone. Now in my HEAD I know that God is there with me, but often in my heart I don't feel this.

Maybe this is why I have such a hard time trusting God? I've been so let down, so disappointed by many of the people in my life. People that are supposed to love and care for me, that it's hard for me to trust.<hr /></blockquote>Okay—boy I didn’t mean to start an avalanche. Are you okay? By okay, I mean, are you able to handle this or is this nerve too raw right now? I understand you are not a Feeler personality type, so I suspect having a big, raw emotion dumped in your lap can be a little hard to handle. Do you need a break or a joke to get ahold??

You have hit upon quite a deep topic here—one I’m sure that many people here can totally identify with. Our FOO’s were dysfunctional and did us great harm. Our fathers did not stay and provide a safe and secure home—and our mothers did not nurture and cherish and support us emotionally. We are all too familiar with the feeling of abandonment because our spouses have left us and have often taken our children away. And sadly many of us, myself included, learned habits that helped us survive as children that do not serve us well as adults.

Tony, I do not care to share my whole life story here and now, but I do want to let you know that I understand how you feel. I also understand what it’s like to be so self-reliant, because of course, it’s really not so much that you depend on yourself in a healthy way—it’s that you’re afraid to let go and trust other people because as soon as you believe in them, they dump you. Yes, your head knows that God is there, but PEOPLE…humans…are not. They leave. They disappear. They desert.

I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’m so sorry that you have not had the comfort of a dependable rock of a family who is there for you when you need them. I’m sorry you have had to live emotionally isolated in order to survive. And trust me when I say that I will be mindful of this as we write here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Well, I can check in now, after writing what I wrote above. Tears are streaming down my face right now as I write, as those feelings that I'm alone facing all of this take over. It's a mix of that and anger. Anger with myself for not being more sensitive and less self-centered, and frustration that W doesn't see what this is doing to me or how I don't want to be so hard shelled and apparently insensitive. Confusion as to how someone who is supposedly so sensitive and caring could act as if my feelings don't matter and further confused as to why she would want to hide her feelings from me, or why she would not want to give me feedback when I ask her about things such as how what I do impacts her, or even just answering the message about Easter Sunday.

It's the confusion that just makes me want to give up on the relationship. I don't need more frustration and confusion in my life, and if I look at the physical aspect of it all, I'm self sufficient, and am not sure I want to open my heart to yet another person and risk abandonment again.

I want THIS relationship to work. For once I'd like a relationship with someone I love to work without that person wholly abandoning me.

But I know in my head that God had given me everything I need. Maybe not every desire of my heart, but everything I need right now.

But that knowledge doesn't calm my troubled heart at most times, and that is one of my daily struggles. <hr /></blockquote>Here’s a lotion tissue, and here’s a shoulder. You won’t scare me away with a few tears and some honking sounding blowing. Tony, you’re not as insensitive and selfish as you’ve been told, and there are some things in a divorce that we will never understand. So much of affairs and divorce make NO SENSE whatsoever, but sometimes we need to accept the fact that we will never know. What I think and feel about what was done to me and my spouse’s affair and our divorce may never be known or said. No one may ever know or understand what happened or how much I hurt—because no one may ever ask me. And I’m pretty sure I will never understand why my ex did what he did or behaved like he did, because I am just not wired that way. You may never have the chance to understand how she could supposedly be so sensitive and crush you. You may never understand period, and I know that’s hard for a Thinker to accept. Your brain keeps whirring away trying to figure it out.

Just claim the promises: “I will never leave you or forsake you” and “Behold, I am with you always.” Even when humans fail us and hurt us. I know that you know God is with us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When you say "and now he's trying to take my kids away from me!" I think you are being a bit selfish if I may be so bold. My heart goes out for this guy, I feel like I identify with him. So I ask you to consider, are they your kids and your kids alone, or are they the children of both you and your husband.

When you say things like weapon or inadequate, that you can't do it on your own, I think you view this as a competition. I feel your pain, but I also have to wonder if it is self-inflicted. So I ask you, why are you competing with him? Do you derive your self worth by being a better parent than he does? What is wrong with rejoicing that you have an exH who is happy to be part of the lives of your children?

I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive, because I hear you are angry, however, I feel some sympathy for your children. They probably just want to spend time with your exH. How do they feel about spending Sunday nights with him?

It's hard for me to be very sympathetic or empathetic with you because I'm in his shoes. So I hope you will accept my acknowledgement of how you feel and my earnest reflections on the feelings of others. I do know this must hurt deeply for you. You lost someone you love, so are you afraid you will lose your children to him as well? Like I said, I don't know exactly how you feel. What I do know is that treating it as a competition is probably more harmful than good.

So finally, the only thing I can suggest is that you check your motives. Do your feelings really have the best interests of the children at heart, or are you trying to protect your own heart?

It's a tough situation you are in, divorce is tough. But I just want to remind you that it's not only tough on you, it is tough on the entire family.

This is probably not the empathetic response you wanted; however, it is what is on my heart right now.<hr /></blockquote>Tony, you’re right. This is not the empathetic listening or response that I was hoping for. I don’t really want to get into a fact-war with you, but there are some VERY serious misunderstandings here.

First, I do not feel as if my exH is trying to steal the children from me—in fact, in real life, I wish he wanted to spend more time with them and I wish he more fully understood what it means to take the time to raise a child. He has been a distant, workaholic father who spent time with the kids “if he had some free time” (which he rarely has). If anything, in real life, I go OUT OF MY WAY to encourage and promote my kids spending as much time as they ask for, request and desire—when he will take them. He sees them or speaks with them DAILY at length whenever he wishes. I just wish HE understood the idea that they are not just my kids, and that he has some responsibility to them too. Remember, he left us TWICE for more than six months—moved out of state—didn’t send any money or help in any way—and did not care if his own children lived or died. I understand they are not just mine.

On the rare occasion when I do feel like he is trying to take them away, I realize that it is a trigger reaction on my part, probably initiated by some insecurity of my own—so I figure out what my problem is and work on it myself. I don’t put it on him, I don’t blame him, and I don’t involve the kids. It’s my issue.

My kids are WELCOME to go to his house any time they want, and stay overnight any night they want. I have some concern due to his abusive nature, mental health, and sexual addiction that the kids will learn unhealthy habits from him, but the kids and I have a very good relationship and I’ve taught them many good ways to deal with these issues. Sadly, my D spends one night a week with her dad if he’s in town, and my S does not spend any because it’s not convenient for dad’s schedule.

This is why I wrote to you that I was not writing something with my own voice. I was writing with my imagination of what your W might be feeling, and let me be frank with you my friend. I admire you pretty well and think fairly highly of you, and yet this post has quite frankly stirred up some anger in me. Yeah, I’m a bit angry. I don’t and didn’t deserve this post, and I don’t appreciate that you assumed that I treat my ex like you are being treated. I feel that you projected all over me, and I hope you will get a towel and clean up this mess.

I’m a little steamed. The way this post started off, it seemed as if you were really hurting, and I really wanted to respond to you in a sympathetic way. But I’ve decided I don’t deserve to be snapped at because you are hurting.

Time out.

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 ... When I told her I wanted more time with our daughter and that I think it's reasonable that I have more than one weekend every two weeks her response, verbatim was, "Why are you trying to take away my daughter?"

I guess it is hard for me to be sympathetic, empathetic or whatever when I feel like I'm speaking with a deranged selfish person.<hr /></blockquote>I take that remark a bit personally. I am not a deranged selfish person and I doubt your W is either. I suspect she is insecure and your D gives her a reason to get up in the morning.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So tell me, how do I become empathetic and understanding when the facts contradict what she is emoting? <hr /></blockquote>Emotions have little or nothing to do with the facts. Here is how you might respond empathetically:

"I realize that you were just asking for help, and I ended up throwing a request in there. I bet that felt like a surprise for which you weren't ready. I don't want to take D away from you or harm the relationship that you two have, but I do hurt when I'm not able to be with her, and I am her parent too. I love her and miss her very much, so I was hoping... Meanwhile, I would be happy to support you in any way I can, and I look forward to the chance to spend a few more precious hours with our girl!"

Enough for tonight.

CJ

[ March 15, 2004, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]

CJ,

I didn't mean to snap at you. I thought you were playing the role of W, and I had no idea you would take what I wrote so personally.

Well, my pager is really going off, that is what woke me, so I'm off to fix something I can really fix.

Please understand that this issue is really a sore issue for me.

I want to be empathetic, and I want to be heard. I still feel that my W is being "not so nice" when she says things like I should be happy or satisfied with the time I have and I should not take it personally when she says she hates that she has to ask me to watch our D one extra night.

You know, it does hurt, this whole stinking mess hurts. So I'm going to get some things wrong from time to time.

I just didn't think you would take what I said so personally.

I guess I truly don't understand how you can take this so personally not being involved. I image she has even deeper responses that I can't even begin to fathom.

Well off to handle a couple of service calls. We had three come in at once and there is only one FE...

Tony

Okay, here's the deal.

I am a human too, and I have lost my spouse and family too, and on occasion I have triggers and sore spots too.

I don't want this to spiral downhill. Let's just agree we've hit a nerve and call it a night. You know I care--I know you didn't mean it. Well fix it in the morning.

CJ

CJ,

I've read step two, Opening a Closed Spirit and I keep coming back to the conclustion that I'm doing those things and they are NOT working.

I'm gentle, I've asked for forgiveness, I've done the 180, I'm trying to listen.

She is still avoiding me, doesn't talk, etc.

What am I missing?

I pray for her several times a day. I pray that:

1. She might be healed from any hurts I've caused
2. That the Holy Spirit would show me what I've done wrong.
3. That I would learn how my words and deeds impact her and that I can anticipate how the things I consider saying might be interpreted.

For example, the whole ugly mess above, I had no idea you would take it so personally. I did not think those were your words, but you playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said.

Well, you took it very personally, something I had no idea you would have done.

That is an example of how I put my big size 11 foot in my mouth and hurt someone without the motive or objective to do so.

4. That the Holy Spirit would bind Satan so she can hear God's truth, and not the lies of the great deciever.

I'm sure there are many more things I pray for, that she might be able to forgive me of those hurts I've caused, on purpose or not, that I might be able to forgive her of the hurts I feel.

And, I pray that I would remember to give God the glory regardless of the outcome.

While I pray several times each day for reconciliation, for guidance, and have thanked both God and my W for showing me these areas where I need to improve, the progress is painfully slow.

I have to admit that I'm frustrated that I cannot see God working in her life, or that our relationship doesn't appear to be one step closer to reconciliation.

I'll read it again, however, I don't really know what else to do, other than wait. I've shared my other frustrations, that I don't think of the right things to say until hours after the conversation.

I still take personally things she says such as I should be happy with the time I do get to spend with our daughter, and I shouldn't EXPECT to have more time with her. The tacit assertion is SHE should be able to dictate how much time I have with our D.

I praise God that He has taken care of me and that our YD seems to be doing well in all of this. I'm disappointed that W still believes this is the best solution, and my heart is broken over how this is impacting our 14yo SD.

I want to see God have a total victory here. Why can't I be satisfied with His timetable?

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 ...I've read step two, Opening a Closed Spirit and I keep coming back to the conclustion that I'm doing those things and they are NOT working. ... I'm gentle, I've asked for forgiveness, I've done the 180, I'm trying to listen. ...She is still avoiding me, doesn't talk, etc. ...What am I missing?<hr /></blockquote>Oh boy. Tony, I am so disappointed to hear this. Buddy, this is a pity party attitude, and I don't think you'll get anywhere near reconciliation talking like this. I'm honestly sad to hear you talk like this.

Like you, I took the day and night off yesterday and took some time for myself and my kids and my goals in life. It felt good to "get back on track." One of the things I did was to also read Step Two "Open a Closed Spirit" and as I was reading, I remember distinctly thinking, "Oh, if only somehow he could get this!!" It sorrows my own heart to read this and know that the answer is RIGHT THERE IN PRINT and my own H never bothered or wanted to read it.

I see it. I read it. I get it. As a woman, I completely understand to my core what the author means when he writes these things and literally LONG and ACHE for that lightbulb moment; yet somehow you are Helen Keller and I am Annie Sullivan spelling "grass" "tree" "kitty" and you don't get it. I haven't found your "WATER" yet.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I pray for her several times a day. I pray that: 1. She might be healed from any hurts I've caused <hr /></blockquote>Just a quick thought: did it occur to you that she could be healed and not want to reconcile and still choose to end the marriage? Or that she could be healed after the marriage is over?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2. That the Holy Spirit would show me what I've done wrong.<hr /></blockquote>Kind of ditto: did it occur to you that the Holy Spirit can move in your life in a mighty way and draw you into close intimacy with God, and not save your marriage? I'm not advocating divorce here--I'm just saying that sometimes it happens, and the Holy Spirit still works anyway despite us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3. That I would learn how my words and deeds impact her and that I can anticipate how the things I consider saying might be interpreted. <hr /></blockquote>(See above)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For example, the whole ugly mess above, I had no idea you would take it so personally. I did not think those were your words, but you playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said. ... Well, you took it very personally, something I had no idea you would have done. ... That is an example of how I put my big size 11 foot in my mouth and hurt someone without the motive or objective to do so.<hr /></blockquote>I have a little bit of a hurtful puzzle here for you, my brother. Have you realized that in the whole mess above, that you have not apologized or taken responsibility for the part you played? (I'm trying to point out something here, not asking for an apology.)

The reason I point this out is a bit of a logic problem. I am an acquaintance of yours at best--I am relatively anonymous and in your daily "real life" I mean very little. You would have nothing to lose humbling yourself, taking responsibility for your stuff, and apologizing. Even if you totally blew it and had no way to save face, you'd have nothing to lose apologizing to me because I'm not so important in your life. Well, if you can't be humble, take responsibility, and apologize to me--and I mean very little--logic would say that you would have a VERY hard time doing that with someone who really mattered to you. If you can't lose face with a total stranger, chances are that you WON'T lose face with someone you care about.

You have explained--but explanations are not taking personal responsibility or understanding how I felt. You have dodged a little and defended a little--but once again, that's not humbling yourself and looking in the mirror. In fact, in some ways explaining and defending are placing the responsibility somewhere else.

I point this out to you because I want you to pause and think about it. Is it possible that you can not/have not truly apologized to your W in a way that expects nothing back?? When you hurt her, and you explain, that does not "open her spirit"--it explains why it was okay for you to hurt her. Well, guess what? After she's been hurt often enough, and you've explained why it was okay to hurt her often enough, she's going to roll up TIGHT and say, "NO MORE!! I don't care if you're explanations are logical, I AM BEING HURT HERE!!!"

Finally, my reaction was my own and was a result of my own triggers and all, but to quote you: "...(I thought you were) playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said." If that is how you would actually respond to your wife, then that is why she is hurt and closed, and that is why you benefit from learning empathetic listening AND RESPONDING.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4. That the Holy Spirit would bind Satan so she can hear God's truth, and not the lies of the great deciever. <hr /></blockquote>AMEN.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm sure there are many more things I pray for, that she might be able to forgive me of those hurts I've caused, on purpose or not, that I might be able to forgive her of the hurts I feel.

And, I pray that I would remember to give God the glory regardless of the outcome.<hr /></blockquote>Once again, she may be able to forgive you for unintentionally stabbing her emotionally, but that does not mean she won't still carry the stab scar. You know, Tony, even if you did not mean to stab her emotionally, even if it was not on purpose, the result to her is still a bleeding wound that will scar over. It's not much consolation to the person who's dying from a stab wound to hear, "I didn't mean to..." "Oh well! You did! I'm dying becasue of it!"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />... I have to admit that I'm frustrated that I cannot see God working in her life, or that our relationship doesn't appear to be one step closer to reconciliation. <hr /></blockquote>My brother, just because you can not see God working in her life doesn't mean He's not!! Boy, while my exH and I live apart, I know God is working in his heart, but I only get to see it about once every blue moon!!! God's greatest desire is for us to be in relationship with Him--so He IS working in her life. But Tony, He's working with her where she is and where she needs it--not where you are, not where you need it, and not where you think SHE needs it. Also, bear in mind that she could gradually move closer to God and that does not necessarily preclude that the marriage reconciles. Yes, years and years from now she may have the guts to say, "Now that I've grown closer to God, I realize that I made a mistake treating my first H like I did."

(Let me also say again, that I am not encouraging divorce, but rather, just pointing out that just because a divorce is final God does not stop working in her life. I am divorced and God has worked in my life tremendously, even though I didn't want it--and God is still working in my exH's life too.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'll read it again, however, I don't really know what else to do, other than wait. I've shared my other frustrations, that I don't think of the right things to say until hours after the conversation. <hr /></blockquote>As I articulated above, I am very sad to hear this. I almost have to wonder if you are really wanting to and ready to change. There are times when it sounds to me like what you want to do is whine and blame her for not coming back. It's not pretty, I know, but it's the truth of what I think. Honestly, I don't feel like you want to try. At times it feels like it's just easier to "be frustrated" than to do the hard work of changing as a man--whether she comes back or not.

So, for tonight and tomorrow, I'd like to hear about your four assignments (Fun, Vocabulary, Check-in, Empathetic Listening), AND I want you to give true consideration to whether or not you are willing to change. Hey, maybe you just really do not want to! And if you decide that you are committed to changing, then we are going to have to work on the "I'm so frustrated-pity party" thoughts that you choose to keep. We will practice recognizing those counter-productive thoughts, stopping, and replacing them with a productive thought.

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

[ March 17, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 ...I've read step two, Opening a Closed Spirit and I keep coming back to the conclustion that I'm doing those things and they are NOT working. ... I'm gentle, I've asked for forgiveness, I've done the 180, I'm trying to listen. ...She is still avoiding me, doesn't talk, etc. ...What am I missing?<hr /></blockquote>Oh boy. Tony, I am so disappointed to hear this. Buddy, this is a pity party attitude, and I don't think you'll get anywhere near reconciliation talking like this. I'm honestly sad to hear you talk like this.

<hr /></blockquote>Please explain why you feel this way, I truly don't understand.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


Like you, I took the day and night off yesterday and took some time for myself and my kids and my goals in life. It felt good to "get back on track." One of the things I did was to also read Step Two "Open a Closed Spirit" and as I was reading, I remember distinctly thinking, "Oh, if only somehow he could get this!!" It sorrows my own heart to read this and know that the answer is RIGHT THERE IN PRINT and my own H never bothered or wanted to read it.

I see it. I read it. I get it. As a woman, I completely understand to my core what the author means when he writes these things and literally LONG and ACHE for that lightbulb moment; yet somehow you are Helen Keller and I am Annie Sullivan spelling "grass" "tree" "kitty" and you don't get it. I haven't found your "WATER" yet.

<hr /></blockquote>Ok, I'm not stupid, so what am I not getting? What I'm saying is I don't even get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive. I don't get the chance to demonstrate being humble.

That's a big part of my frustration.

I'm frustrated with myself because it's obvious to me that I am NOT a more attractive alternative to divorce.

Am I supposed to feel good about this? What thoughts am I supposed to have about this?

Neither the thoughts or the feelings are pleasant right now.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />I pray for her several times a day. I pray that: 1. She might be healed from any hurts I've caused <hr /></blockquote>Just a quick thought: did it occur to you that she could be healed and not want to reconcile and still choose to end the marriage?

<hr /></blockquote>Yes, so are you saying I should quit?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />2. That the Holy Spirit would show me what I've done wrong.<hr /></blockquote>Kind of ditto: did it occur to you that the Holy Spirit can move in your life in a mighty way and draw you into close intimacy with God, and not save your marriage?

<hr /></blockquote>Yes, are you saying I should quit? I'm a thinker, I've considered many scenarios.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />3. That I would learn how my words and deeds impact her and that I can anticipate how the things I consider saying might be interpreted. <hr /></blockquote>(See above)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />For example, the whole ugly mess above, I had no idea you would take it so personally. I did not think those were your words, but you playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said. ... Well, you took it very personally, something I had no idea you would have done. ... That is an example of how I put my big size 11 foot in my mouth and hurt someone without the motive or objective to do so.<hr /></blockquote>I have a little bit of a hurtful puzzle here for you, my brother. Have you realized that in the whole mess above, that you have not apologized or taken responsibility for the part you played? (I'm trying to point out something here, not asking for an apology.) The reason I point this out is a bit of a logic problem. I am an acquaintance of yours at best--I am relatively anonymous and in your daily "real life" I mean very little. You would have nothing to lose humbling yourself, taking responsibility for your stuff, and apologizing. Even if you totally blew it and had no way to save face, you'd have nothing to lose apologizing to me because I'm not so important in your life. Well, if you can't be humble, take responsibility, and apologize to me--and I mean very little--logic would say that you would have a VERY hard time doing that with someone who really mattered to you. If you can't lose face with a total stranger, chances are that you WON'T lose face with someone you care about.

<hr /></blockquote>You know I read this, and at first I thought you were talking about apologizing to her. I didn't read very carefully.

This is a key lesson, and probably the core of my problem. I didn't THINK to apologize because I didn't try to hurt you. As I've said in my replys before, I didn't believe these were your words, and that you were merely playing a role.

Then you told me that you were hurt.

You know what, I was insensitive, and I should have apologized, not because of me being right or wrong, but because you were hurt.

I truly am sorry you were hurt, and if I could, I would go back and do things differently.

Thank you for showing me this very important aspect of my personality. I can analyze why I didn't apologize and explain the thought process behind it, but that does little to take away the pain you felt, and perhaps still feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


You have explained--but explanations are not taking personal responsibility or understanding how I felt. You have dodged a little and defended a little--but once again, that's not humbling yourself and looking in the mirror. In fact, in some ways explaining and defending are placing the responsibility somewhere else.

<hr /></blockquote>You are right, I said essentially that I wasn't trying to hurt you, so if you were hurt it was your own doing. Thanks for sharing that, it just shows me how insensitive I still am, and I do regret behaving in such a fashion.

Maybe I should quit, you would think a sharp guy like me would get this by now.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


I point this out to you because I want you to pause and think about it. Is it possible that you can not/have not truly apologized to your W in a way that expects nothing back?? When you hurt her, and you explain, that does not "open her spirit"--it explains why it was okay for you to hurt her. Well, guess what? After she's been hurt often enough, and you've explained why it was okay to hurt her often enough, she's going to roll up TIGHT and say, "NO MORE!! I don't care if you're explanations are logical, I AM BEING HURT HERE!!!"
<hr /></blockquote>I don't know, I have apologized to her. I've said I am truly sorry she is hurt, that I would do anything to never hurt her again. I've taken responsibilty for being insenstive and that I understand as best as I can why she feels the way she does.

I have not tried to make excuses, I've simply said that I'm sorry, and that I don't want to hurt her.

If it takes a divorce so that she doesn't hurt anymore, the so be it. That's not what I want, but it's not fair for her to hurt at my expense.

I mentioned to her back in November that she could get a divorce if she wanted, even told her that she could pay for it out of her proceeds. I shared with her that I didn't want her to feel trapped.

I really meant that.

I would like her to "unball" and open up to me. I just don't know how.

1. She avoids my calls.
2. She avoids any face to face contact.

So how do I even show her a gentle spirit? This question has not been answered in a fashion that I understand.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4. That the Holy Spirit would bind Satan so she can hear God's truth, and not the lies of the great deciever. <hr /></blockquote>AMEN.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm sure there are many more things I pray for, that she might be able to forgive me of those hurts I've caused, on purpose or not, that I might be able to forgive her of the hurts I feel.

And, I pray that I would remember to give God the glory regardless of the outcome.<hr /></blockquote>Once again, she may be able to forgive you for unintentionally stabbing her emotionally, but that does not mean she won't still carry the stab scar. You know, Tony, even if you did not mean to stab her emotionally, even if it was not on purpose, the result to her is still a bleeding wound that will scar over. It's not much consolation to the person who's dying from a stab wound to hear, "I didn't mean to..." "Oh well! You did! I'm dying becasue of it!"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />... I have to admit that I'm frustrated that I cannot see God working in her life, or that our relationship doesn't appear to be one step closer to reconciliation. <hr /></blockquote>My brother, just because you can not see God working in her life doesn't mean He's not!! Boy, while my exH and I live apart, I know God is working in his heart, but I only get to see it about once every blue moon!!! God's greatest desire is for us to be in relationship with Him--so He IS working in her life. But Tony, He's working with her where she is and where she needs it--not where you are, not where you need it, and not where you think SHE needs it. Also, bear in mind that she could gradually move closer to God and that does not necessarily preclude that the marriage reconciles. Yes, years and years from now she may have the guts to say, "Now that I've grown closer to God, I realize that I made a mistake treating my first H like I did."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'll read it again, however, I don't really know what else to do, other than wait. I've shared my other frustrations, that I don't think of the right things to say until hours after the conversation. <hr /></blockquote>As I articulated above, I am very sad to hear this. I almost have to wonder if you are really wanting to and ready to change. There are times when it sounds to me like what you want to do is whine and blame her for not coming back. It's not pretty, I know, but it's the truth of what I think. Honestly, I don't feel like you want to. At times it feels like it's just easier to "be frustrated" than to do the hard work of changing as a man--whether she comes back or not. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not whining at all, am I.

I'm sitting here saying I'M WILLING TO WORK. So give me an assignment.

Have I not been working on the assignments you've given me?

Let me go read the chapter again, but I don't see a set of suggestions for a wife who doesn't answer phone calls and doesn't come by to see you face to face.

I'm saying I'm out of ideas, talent and luck all at the same time. So I need some fresh ideas.

But most of all, I need to know from her what it is she needs from me the most.

How do I become that man she wanted me to be 7+ years ago. I need to hear from her why she was disappointed. I've not heard that. All I hear is that she doesn't feel or believe it will ever work.

Part of me wants to say, of course it won't if you have the negative attitude.

So tell me, what should I do, right now, or tomorrow.

Do you want to talk to her? Maybe you can hear something I'm not hearing.

I really want to understand. I really want to be sensitive.

I just keep failing. I fail with her, I fail with you. I ask for help and you call me a whiner. Is that a motivation technique, or do I really sound that way?

Well, it's late at night, and I'm not at my mental best, so maybe the answer is right in my face and I just don't see it.

Or maybe this was just another in a long series of lessons I still need to learn, such as about forgiveness.

I'm sorry I'm so dense when it comes to this sort of thing.

I believe God will save this marriage, and that God will lead W and I to be a happily married couple.

I just don't know how he is going to do that, and if I'm the one who is in the way right now.

Tony

[ March 18, 2004, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


So, for tonight and tomorrow, I'd like to hear about your four assignments (Fun, Vocabulary, Check-in, Empathetic Listening), AND I want you to give true consideration to whether or not you are willing to change. Hey, maybe you just really do not want to! And if you decide that you are committed to changing, then we are going to have to work on the "I'm so frustrated-pity party" thoughts that you choose to keep. We will practice recognizing those counter-productive thoughts, stopping, and replacing them with a productive thought.

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ <hr /></blockquote>Ok, for fun:

Watched a James Bond flick tonight on the tube

Vocabulary, did I miss a word, let me look back a bit...

I don't think I did, the last word assigned was abandoned, and I described it, right?

Check-in

This is always the hardest for me because I really don't notice feelings unless they are intense.

So let me deviate a bit. While I didn't have any feelings that registered with me most of the day, right now I'm a bit tense. Why? Well, I feel I've exhausted my talent, and my instructor is telling me that what I'm doing isn't good enough, and she is even accusing me of perhaps wanting to whine more than I want to work.

This causes tension in me because I want to work, but it seems if I try anything, nothing happens. If I call my W she doesn't answer the phone. If I leave a message, she doesn't call back. If I don't call her nothing happens, if I do call her nothing happens, and now I'm told that I'm a whiner and not a worker. Yes, that creates some tension and makes me a bit angry too. I know I'm supposed to develop a more extensive emotional vocabulary.

I really am tense, my shoulders are now tight, my legs are tight. I'm banging away at the keyboard at times.

Ok empathetic listening.

Let me take what you said about me:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:
As I articulated above, I am very sad to hear this. I almost have to wonder if you are really wanting to and ready to change. There are times when it sounds to me like what you want to do is whine and blame her for not coming back. It's not pretty, I know, but it's the truth of what I think. Honestly, I don't feel like you want to. At times it feels like it's just easier to "be frustrated" than to do the hard work of changing as a man--whether she comes back or not.<hr /></blockquote>When I hear you question my desire to change, I think you either reading something completely different from what I just wrote, or see something that I don't even know I'm saying. I feel misunderstood. Why? Because when I say something as simple as I want to change, but I haven't yet found the way, or I'm frustrated that change isn't happening the way or rate I'd like, it means exactly that and nothing more. I want to change, and it's not happening for me. So, since either I don't understand how you feel or get to that point, or I don't understand other way the words I use can be interpreted, I ask you to show me why you think and feel this way. I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I'm having a hard time understanding.

I want to understand.

Tony

OH! P.S. I forgot!

1) Fun: Do one thing that makes your soul sing.

2) Vocabulary: Consider the subtle differences of these words, which all mean "mad"
Mad:
Bothered
Ruffled
Irritated
Displeased
Annoyed
Steamed
Irked
Perturbed
Frustrated
Angry
Fed up
Disgusted
Indignant
Ticked off
Bristling
Fuming
Explosive
Enraged
Irate
Incensed
Burned up
Outraged
Furious
Blind rage

3) Check-in. Check in with yourself every time you begin to feel "frustrated" and choose another emotion that you will feel, such as sad, afraid, or serene.

4) Empathetic Listening and Responding (FYI--this is my voice; I really do think/feel this):

"Boy, I am really afraid to try this again since it turned out so disasterously before. I have had a rough day today and I just don't have the strength to face another hurt. I just wish that somehow I could show Tony how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside--at least while he's talking to his W anyway. Sigh. I feel stuck."

BOY, do you write FAST!! Holy smoke!! I'm impressed! BTW, hi!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 Please explain why you feel this way, I truly don't understand.<hr /></blockquote>I'm disappointed because I think highly of you, and I know you can do this. You're smart, articulate, positive--and I think resorting to a pity party is not going to help you reach your goal.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ok, I'm not stupid, so what am I not getting? What I'm saying is I don't even get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive. I don't get the chance to demonstrate being humble.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, you get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive to me, to all the ladies on this forum, to your co-workers, to people you run into every day, to people in your church, to you daughter... Same with demonstrating being humble.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm frustrated with myself because it's obvious to me that I am NOT a more attractive alternative to divorce.<hr /></blockquote>Ahhhh--well this I understand. I too was quite hurt to realize that I had offered my life to a man who found email cybersex with strangers more valuable than me. I'm venturing a guess that what you're feeling is not "frustration"--it's pain over not being important to someone who is VERY important to you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Am I supposed to feel good about this? What thoughts am I supposed to have about this? <hr /></blockquote>Well, Tony, you are free to have any thoughts or feelings you choose; however, some thoughts/feelings will get you closer to your goals and some will take you further away. Thoughts do not control you--you control them. Feelings do not control you--you are their master. So DECIDE how you'd like to feel about this, and then feel that way. Decide what thoughts you think you should have, and then have them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Neither the thoughts or the feelings are pleasant right now.<hr /></blockquote>I understand what you're saying, and I know it feels horrible, doesn't it??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, so are you saying I should quit? <hr /></blockquote>No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm just saying expand your mind and possibilities. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean reconciliation, and forgiveness is for her best interest, not for you. And forgiveness does not mean no consequences--it means being forgiven.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, are you saying I should quit? I'm a thinker, I've considered many scenarios.<hr /></blockquote>No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm saying that God does not die and the world doesn't stop spinning if the divorce is finalized. The Holy Spirit does not sudden abandon her or you. In fact, maybe the Holy Spirit will have an easier time dealing with you (or with her) when the fighting and hurting are minimized.

I'm just saying that what you're praying for is not specific, and God may give you what you're praying for.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You know I read this, and at first I thought you were talking about apologizing to her. I didn't read very carefully.

This is a key lesson, and probably the core of my problem. I didn't THINK to apologize because I didn't try to hurt you. As I've said in my replys before, I didn't believe these were your words, and that you were merely playing a role.

Then you told me that you were hurt.

You know what, I was insensitive, and I should have apologized, not because of me being right or wrong, but because you were hurt.

I truly am sorry you were hurt, and if I could, I would go back and do things differently.

Thank you for showing me this very important aspect of my personality. I can analyze why I didn't apologize and explain the thought process behind it, but that does little to take away the pain you felt, and perhaps still feel.<hr /></blockquote>Say, I have a question for you. Do you think that Thinkers think it out and kind of believe that once they've analyzed it and understand it, that it's "understood"? Because to a Feeler, it's understood when someone says, "I understand how you could feel that way." Maybe this is partially a personality difference thing.

Just an idea.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You are right, I said essentially that I wasn't trying to hurt you, so if you were hurt it was your own doing. Thanks for sharing that, it just shows me how insensitive I still am, and I do regret behaving in such a fashion.

Maybe I should quit, you would think a sharp guy like me would get this by now.<hr /></blockquote>You're looking for a reason to quit, aren't you?? Come on, Tony, you are smart as a whip but you are just starting to learn this! You are being very hard on yourself, so give yourself a break and keep learning, okay?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not whining at all, am I.<hr /></blockquote>I'd like a lite, swiss with that whine please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just keep failing. I fail with her, I fail with you. I ask for help and you call me a whiner. Is that a motivation technique, or do I really sound that way?<hr /></blockquote>Tony! Tony! Tony! You didn't "fail" with me. This is what happens when there are two individual people in even a friendship. Tiffs occur. Hurts happen. The point of these occurences is to learn from them and do better next time. And I called you a whiner to get your attention and to snap you out of it. Whining is not productive, so it wastes your recovery energy to use it on whining.

I too believe that God will work a miracle and reconcile your marriage. The thing about miracles is that it's a thing of faith--we DON'T know how it's going to happen and that's the faith part. When Moses hit the rock, he had NO CLUE how God was going to bring water to the Israelits--but he knew that God wanted him to hit the rock, and he knew that SOMEHOW God knew how to bring the water, so Moses hit the rock.

So, Tony, stop wondering how God's going to work this miracle and start hitting rocks. Just do it.

CJ

CJ,

Thanks for your time and your answers. I do want to ask one thing. It seems you didn't answer some of my questions. I don't know if that was an oversight, or if you simply chose not to answer them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 BOY, do you write FAST!! Holy smoke!! I'm impressed! BTW, hi!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 Please explain why you feel this way, I truly don't understand.<hr /></blockquote>I'm disappointed because I think highly of you, and I know you can do this. You're smart, articulate, positive--and I think resorting to a pity party is not going to help you reach your goal.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ok, I'm not stupid, so what am I not getting? What I'm saying is I don't even get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive. I don't get the chance to demonstrate being humble.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, you get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive to me, to all the ladies on this forum, to your co-workers, to people you run into every day, to people in your church, to you daughter... Same with demonstrating being humble.

<hr /></blockquote>Ok, I wasn't clear here. I know I get chances with everyone else.

The book talks about a football game analogy. So let's go with that.

How do I "gain yards" in the superbowl here. With her? I should have been more clear when I described my frustration.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm frustrated with myself because it's obvious to me that I am NOT a more attractive alternative to divorce.<hr /></blockquote>Ahhhh--well this I understand. I too was quite hurt to realize that I had offered my life to a man who found email cybersex with strangers more valuable than me. I'm venturing a guess that what you're feeling is not "frustration"--it's pain over not being important to someone who is VERY important to you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Am I supposed to feel good about this? What thoughts am I supposed to have about this? <hr /></blockquote>Well, Tony, you are free to have any thoughts or feelings you choose; however, some thoughts/feelings will get you closer to your goals and some will take you further away. Thoughts do not control you--you control them. Feelings do not control you--you are their master. So DECIDE how you'd like to feel about this, and then feel that way. Decide what thoughts you think you should have, and then have them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Neither the thoughts or the feelings are pleasant right now.<hr /></blockquote>I understand what you're saying, and I know it feels horrible, doesn't it??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, so are you saying I should quit? <hr /></blockquote>No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm just saying expand your mind and possibilities. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean reconciliation, and forgiveness is for her best interest, not for you. And forgiveness does not mean no consequences--it means being forgiven.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes, are you saying I should quit? I'm a thinker, I've considered many scenarios.<hr /></blockquote>No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm saying that God does not die and the world doesn't stop spinning if the divorce is finalized. The Holy Spirit does not sudden abandon her or you. In fact, maybe the Holy Spirit will have an easier time dealing with you (or with her) when the fighting and hurting are minimized.

I'm just saying that what you're praying for is not specific, and God may give you what you're praying for.

<hr /></blockquote>Ok, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit show me what I'm supposed to be praying for?

I can't be more specific than show me what I need to do right now since I don't know what to do, can I?

What is not specific about asking God to show me the path to reconciliation, to show me what I need to do?

What is not specific about asking God to teach me to love my wife the way that Christ loved the church?

Is the prayer I express in my signature too vague as well.

Sheesh, I feel like I can't even pray right now.

Maybe I just need an example of something more specific.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />You know I read this, and at first I thought you were talking about apologizing to her. I didn't read very carefully.

This is a key lesson, and probably the core of my problem. I didn't THINK to apologize because I didn't try to hurt you. As I've said in my replys before, I didn't believe these were your words, and that you were merely playing a role.

Then you told me that you were hurt.

You know what, I was insensitive, and I should have apologized, not because of me being right or wrong, but because you were hurt.

I truly am sorry you were hurt, and if I could, I would go back and do things differently.

Thank you for showing me this very important aspect of my personality. I can analyze why I didn't apologize and explain the thought process behind it, but that does little to take away the pain you felt, and perhaps still feel.<hr /></blockquote>Say, I have a question for you. Do you think that Thinkers think it out and kind of believe that once they've analyzed it and understand it, that it's "understood"? Because to a Feeler, it's understood when someone says, "I understand how you could feel that way." Maybe this is partially a personality difference thing.

Just an idea.
<hr /></blockquote>Are you saying the thinker here is not verbalizing the understood part? That they understand in their mind, you know, the light bulb goes off, and they assume the other person has or will reach that same conclusion.

I'm not sure I understand the scenario you paint with the thinker.

I do understand that the feeler wants the other person to acknowledge their feelings, and saying I understand how you could feel that way is one way to do this.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You are right, I said essentially that I wasn't trying to hurt you, so if you were hurt it was your own doing. Thanks for sharing that, it just shows me how insensitive I still am, and I do regret behaving in such a fashion.

Maybe I should quit, you would think a sharp guy like me would get this by now.<hr /></blockquote>You're looking for a reason to quit, aren't you?? Come on, Tony, you are smart as a whip but you are just starting to learn this! You are being very hard on yourself, so give yourself a break and keep learning, okay?

<hr /></blockquote>No, I'm looking for a way to succeed, and you are giving me these ideas that it may not work out, that I don't get it, that I'm blind.

I'm looking for a way to succeed, but I'm discouraged.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not whining at all, am I.<hr /></blockquote>I'd like a lite, swiss with that whine please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<hr /></blockquote>Ok, fine, well give me a play coach.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just keep failing. I fail with her, I fail with you. I ask for help and you call me a whiner. Is that a motivation technique, or do I really sound that way?<hr /></blockquote>Tony! Tony! Tony! You didn't "fail" with me. This is what happens when there are two individual people in even a friendship. Tiffs occur. Hurts happen. The point of these occurences is to learn from them and do better next time. And I called you a whiner to get your attention and to snap you out of it. Whining is not productive, so it wastes your recovery energy to use it on whining.

<hr /></blockquote>Well youu have my attention. You've never lost it. Going back to the football game analogy, how do I get on the field?

MOre later, the phone has gone off...
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted by CJ:


I too believe that God will work a miracle and reconcile your marriage. The thing about miracles is that it's a thing of faith--we DON'T know how it's going to happen and that's the faith part. When Moses hit the rock, he had NO CLUE how God was going to bring water to the Israelits--but he knew that God wanted him to hit the rock, and he knew that SOMEHOW God knew how to bring the water, so Moses hit the rock.

So, Tony, stop wondering how God's going to work this miracle and start hitting rocks. Just do it.

CJ <hr /></blockquote>

Tony,

I have read your posts and I hear all through them that you are discouraged and downhearted. Is that how you’re feeling? Disappointed that it’s not moving toward reconciliation (that you can see) and that it’s not moving fast enough? Heartsick and broken hearted that given the choice between you and divorce, she’s picking divorce?? Boy do I totally know how you feel! This is probably the hardest thing you will ever go through in your life, and I know you’ve been through some momentous stuff in your life. It’s so easy to become discouraged and downhearted, so may I suggest that you take some extra “Take Care of Tony” time? When you take care of yourself by doing things like eating and sleeping properly, being with supportive people, and maybe doing small things that are calming to you (like for me, it’s taking the time to take a bubble bath with Frank Sinatra in the CD-player), it can restore your soul. As I was going through my divorce, I made tremendous strides in maturity and growth as a person, but what often happened to me was that I’d be working on reconciling/the marriage and working on me, and I would work myself too much. Sometimes it’s just as much of a step forward to NOT step back!

Next, I do read all of your posts, and I see every single question, but you must know that there are some questions you ask that don’t have answers-at least not in the way that you are searching for. I thought most of those questions were more rhetorical-as if you were asking, “Why is this happening to me?” Also, you know that LOTS of your questions are more like polite demands for me to give you something to do to “fix it.” Tony, you are a smart man-I have every confidence in you-and I know that you know there are no magic words I can give you to fix this “right now!!!” Yep, you’re an ESTJ living in the present without the love of your life, and I do know how much that hurts, but it took a couple years for it to get into this much trouble and it may take a couple years to get it out of trouble. I just can not fix this TODAY, no matter how much I may wish I could.

I’m going to take a bit of a different tactic today, in order to try to be more encouraging to you…in order to work on replacing the negative self-talk with more promising, hopeful self-talk…and in order to see if maybe this new tactic will work better with you. I’m going to encourage you to continue with the assignments and kindly remind you that empathetic listening does not mean expressing YOUR thoughts or feelings-it means listening for the feelings of the person talking. Okay? Just a reminder.

1) FUN-today I’m going to strongly encourage you to do something that makes your soul so happy that big, ol’ Thinker you feels like dancing and singing. Choose something that just makes you HAPPY-like doing word puzzles, watching a favorite episode of Star Trek, working out, putzing with your car, or maybe a bubble bath! Haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My point here is to not let yourself sit around at home, alone, feeling all depressed and discouraged. You’re an extrovert-go to men’s bible study or ask a few of your fella friends to go out for coffee (or a beer if that’s more appropriate).
2) VOCABULARY-I gave you a great vocab assignment last night, so I’m going to do it.
3) CHECK-IN-okay this one is hard for you because you don’t “feel” an overpowering emotion in your day-to-day existence. First, try to check in at regular intervals anyway just to dig a little deeper into yourself and see what you’re feeling. But second, during the day today, whenever you think a negative, depressing, discouraging thought take a moment and stop yourself-stop the broken record in your head and replace it with a hopeful thought. Here’s an example. When you hear inside your head the same old thoughts of “I’m so frustrated. I can’t demonstrate how sensitive I am. She won’t let me. She’d rather be divorced than answer my phone messages. She won’t even look at me” recognize that it’s the old thought pattern, stop yourself, and replace it with “I do feel sad that I can’t show her how sensitive I am becoming, but I know I am growing and working to become the man God wants me to be, and I am making progress. I am going to live the way God wants, and He has promised to give me peace and joy.”
4) EMPATHETIC LISTENING AND RESPONDING-I think we have gotten off course on these assignments. The purpose of these assignments was to give you practice being an active listener who could hear the feelings in a statement. You can’t very well respond empathetically if you can’t hear the feelings, can ya??? When we were working on empathetic listening, you did an EXCELLENT job and I was very impressed with your ability to hear the obvious feelings stated and figure out some of the more subtle feelings expressed as well. When we switched to empathetic responding, though, it fell apart. Soooo…maybe let me better explain empathetic responding.

The idea of empathetic responding is to actively listen for the feelings of the speaker/writer and then respond to them in a way that acknowledges/validates their feelings. This is a vital skill that most women wish their husbands knew how to do, and yet it’s something that many men do not know how to do-or choose not to do. I have no scientific evidence to support this statement, but I would guess that 9 times out of 10 when a lady says, “AARRGGHH! I’m so sick of this! No one ever helps me around the house and I never get to sit down and relax!” she doesn’t want you to tell her “Yes we do! We help you all the time. Don’t you remember just yesterday how I cleaned the bathroom with Comet?” What this says to her is a) I am not hearing how you feel, and b) you are not allowed to feel what you feel because it is not factually correct. She wants you to tell her “Are you feeling overwhelmed, honey? Would you like me to help you so we can sit down and relax together when we’re done? What do you need help with?” What this says to her is a) I hear that you feel XYZ and I’m checking with you to make sure that’s accurate, and b) I acknowledge that feeling and give you a safe place in which to express that feeling, and c) can I help?

Now, Tony, I know you are a very intelligent, articulate man and I KNOW for a fact that your brain comprehends the concept of empathetic responding. There is a bit of a regular formula to it after all: listen for feelings and feeling-words, mirror them back to make sure you aren’t assuming or interpreting incorrectly, and make a request or offer. The part that I’m not as sure that you understand is the emotional impact that empathetic listening can offer versus the old way of responding.

I’m going to use our mess above to demonstrate the impact-is that alright with you?? Remember -this is not a criticism, but an exploration of what goes on in the mind of a Feeler. We are not dealing with “facts” and perfect accuracy here, and I realize that as a Thinker and a Judger this is a unnatural realm for you to dwell in, so try hard, ok??

Here we go!

In the incident above, I was trying to imagine what I guess you wife is thinking, feeling and saying (apparently I was pretty accurate-heehee). My goal at the time was for you to listen for the feeling words, itemize the feelings you heard in the statement, and respond TO THOSE FEELINGS with empathy and understanding. Speaking in broad strokes, I felt like your response was directed toward me as if * I * was thinking, feeling and saying those things. Even when I told you those were not MY thoughts but just a practice, the response was (paraphrasing) “I think you’re being illogical, CJ. You have no reasonable reason to feel that way and so if you do, it’s your own fault. In fact, you ought to thank God that your ex wants to take our kids and you really shouldn’t stand in his way.” (BTW, Tony, I do know those were not your exact words, so please do not now explain to me how you did not say that and if I were to be more factual, here is what you really said.) If I were playing the part of your W, I’m sure you would get a response from her similar to the response you got from me: hurt and some anger.

Here’s why. To a Feeler, your response effectively communicates that we are not supposed to feel the feelings that we feel; that we are illogical and unreasonable; that it’s our fault and you take no ownership; that we should feel the way that YOU determine is right; and that we should be okay with being controlled and forced. Tony, you are a Thinker-but if I said that to you, would you be okay with it?? Would you accept my statement that you are not supposed to feel depressed, discouraged or downhearted right now?? Or that if you do, you are illogical and unreasonable?? Shoot-not only would I expect that you’d feel discouraged, I would say that it is completely NORMAL to feel that way. What if I communicated to you “If you feel downhearted it’s your own darn fault and I did nothing to contribute. I’m sure not responsible so it must be your problem”? Boy, that would be saddening!! Furthermore, how about if I told you that not only should you not feel depressed, but you should feel LUCKY to have a chance to get out of this mess-so FEEL LUCKY darn it!!!! Oh, and btw, you have to feel okay with my demanding that you feel the way I tell you. Seriously, does that work for you? I highly doubt it!!! I know it does not and did not work for me.

Here’s a better response: “So what you’re saying is that you’re afraid I’ll take our D away from you? Are you also saying you’re afraid you’ll lose some of her love maybe?? I have to honestly say I don’t see why you might feel fear, but I can say that the relationship between a D and her mom is very valuable. I can assure you that I would not do anything to take her away from you or harm that relationship. My desire to have more parenting time with D is from my desire to be with her too, but I can see how she can’t be two places at one time and how it might feel as if time with me is time away from you. Would it be possible for us to sit down and work this out in a way that works for both of us? I’d like to take your feelings into consideration and also acknowledge my feelings too.”

Here’s why this response is better. To a Feeler, this communicates that you are hearing how she feels…afraid of taking D away and afraid of losing her love. It also communicates that although you do not comprehend on a thinking level why she feels that way, that she is perfectly allowed to have the feelings she has. It communicates reassurance. It communicates that you can see how time with you is time away from her. It communicates a mutually respectful request to acknowledge how you feel too and work out something that works for BOTH of you, not just her.

Tony, I KNOW you can comprehend this, but what I’m wondering is-does this hit a spot in your soul? Can you see how the first response hurts? Can you look back over the years and see all the times that you told your wife she couldn’t feel what she feels? That it was HER fault and HER problem? That she was crazy for feeling that way? That she had to feel the way YOU think she should be feeling? Boy, no wonder she closed her spirit.

And can you see the benefit to empathetic responding?? Can you see how response #1 drives a woman further away, but response #2 gives them freedom to be who they are and mutual respect (for BOTH of you)?

In a summary, this is why I’m putting such an emphasis on practicing and developing empathy, empathetic listening, and empathetic responding. It will go a long, Long, LONG way in communicating change, mutual respect, and love.

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

CJ,

You make many good points, and yes I plan to do my homework tonight or tomorrow morning.

The thing I struggle with most, besides there not being a fixed gameplan guaranteed to work is that the feelings make no sense to me at times.

Especially when the feels come out of what is a mis-understanding.

For instance, you felt very bad about what I said and felt that I was commenting on you.

I was more inclinded to correct the facts, I guess hoping that if you saw the same facts, that you would not have the negative emotional reaction.

My logic told me, she felt attacked, she took it personally, so if I correct the mistaken fact and share with her that the basis she is using for the feelings is incorrect, then she should have a whole new set of feelings once she understands the facts.

However, what you are telling me is that once the feelings start, the facts don't really matter, the feelings need to be addressed.

Ok, since I'm the only one working on this here, then I accept that I have to do it this way.

But it will take a long time for me to get out of this mindset. My first instinct is to correct the facts and not focus on the feelings.

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 You make many good points, and yes I plan to do my homework tonight or tomorrow morning.

The thing I struggle with most, besides there not being a fixed gameplan guaranteed to work is that the feelings make no sense to me at times.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, that is rough, isn't it? It would be so much nicer if there was a gameplan that says, "If you do A, B, and C--then your marriage will be saved." That would be GREAT!! However, our spouses have free will to make bad choices, and sometimes no matter what we are willing to do, they won't reconcile.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My logic told me, she felt attacked, she took it personally, so if I correct the mistaken fact and share with her that the basis she is using for the feelings is incorrect, then she should have a whole new set of feelings once she understands the facts.

However, what you are telling me is that once the feelings start, the facts don't really matter, the feelings need to be addressed. <hr /></blockquote>Yep, that's what I'm telling you. Think of it this way...there is no reset button on feelings. Unlike a PC application, you can not press the reset button by explaining the correct facts. Feelings are a lot more like a child--when a child walks into a room, the child wants to be acknowledged.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Ok, since I'm the only one working on this here, then I accept that I have to do it this way.

But it will take a long time for me to get out of this mindset. My first instinct is to correct the facts and not focus on the feelings.<hr /></blockquote>I can see how that would be hard for you, but I think it will be beneficial for you to practice this. Whether it be with your W or with another lady in your life (mom, sis, etc.) this is usually a technique that can be really helpful.

Bear in mind that under IDEAL circumstances, you would learn this adjustment and your partner would learn to at least recognize your pattern--that it's not personal and that explaining means "I told you this so you wouldn't feel bad anymore." However, we are not under ideal circumstances here. You are the only one here doing work--so you will be the one changing.

I'm hoping that now you can see why I was having you practice listening for feelings and responding to the feelings with empathy.

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 OH! P.S. I forgot!

1) Fun: Do one thing that makes your soul sing.

<hr /></blockquote>Fun is the tough one while I'm on call, so it basically is just marking time. No wild nights out. (Not that I do that anyway)

I did tinker with the car a bit, but didn't see how to get the trunk lock cylinder out of the T-Bird, and none of my repair manuals addressed that either, so I'll post on a T-Bird board.

So I watched TV and played with the cat.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


2) Vocabulary: Consider the subtle differences of these words, which all mean "mad"
Mad:
Bothered
Ruffled
Irritated
Displeased
Annoyed
Steamed
Irked
Perturbed
Frustrated
Angry
Fed up
Disgusted
Indignant
Ticked off
Bristling
Fuming
Explosive
Enraged
Irate
Incensed
Burned up
Outraged
Furious
Blind rage

3) Check-in. Check in with yourself every time you begin to feel "frustrated" and choose another emotion that you will feel, such as sad, afraid, or serene.

<hr /></blockquote>You know, what is sad is that it seems the only emotion I notice that I have is one of those shades of anger.

I had Fed Up yesterday. I have a customer who needs a lot of hand holding, usually after he shoots himself in the foot. So he calls me and asks for what essentially is a "Magic Cable" that converts one type of SCSI interface to another type. So I ask why he needs this mythical magic cable, but I don't use the words mythical or magical, and he tells me that the machine in the tape library is "broken"

So we start down the path to define broken...

So I suggest it's a software issue, still wants to replace the machine.

Well, later I find he doesn't need a cable, I get to the office and review the case notes and low and behold, it's a software issue and the reason they were in this position was that they installed an illicit copy of the software back in July last year and the "license" (I use the word loosely) was expired.

Well I was Fed Up as the past few days, these folks have consumed a lot of my time in non-productive ways.

But what alarms me more is the fact that I don't really have many examples where I feel joy.

I spend a lot of time in prayer and reading scripture, and I don't feel the "Joy of the Lord"

I suppose I'm more at peace, and I don't stay irritated nearly as long, so I suppose that is a start.

But, if my only emotion is anger, frustration, being Fed Up, no wonder W doesn't want to be around.

Well, only four more nights of on-call. I've got a service call scheduled for 7AM at a major RBOC (oh region bell operating company)

I also had a preliminary performance review and this whole marital trouble issue is affecting my work.

My boss is sympathetic and he notices that I'm getting better, but he gave me "the talk" yesterday, so I better mind my P's and Q's for a while.

I was humbled and just wanted to get it over because I know I've been letting little things go, and haven't been doing as much pro-active support work as he would like.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:


4) Empathetic Listening and Responding (FYI--this is my voice; I really do think/feel this):

"Boy, I am really afraid to try this again since it turned out so disasterously before. I have had a rough day today and I just don't have the strength to face another hurt. I just wish that somehow I could show Tony how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside--at least while he's talking to his W anyway. Sigh. I feel stuck." <hr /></blockquote>I think you just did. No I'm not making this up. You just did show me "how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside..."

When I read that, and I sometimes have to read it more than once because I'm guilty of reading too quickly, I realized something, based on the contents of this entire message. That since my predominant emotions expressed recently are negative, that's what comes out when I deal with my W.

So when she says something or tells me how she feels I tell or show her my emotions as well, and often that emotion is a negative one.

So while I'm thinking it's good to express how I feel because that is what I see you or W doing, you take it as I'm not validating your feelings at all.

So when I read that you are apprehensive (how's that for vocabulary, LOL?) about this, first I think well that don't make sense, I'm the one with the problem here. However, I think a bit more about it and realize (perhaps even go so far as to feel) like you really do care and are trying to balance that with some fear that the tail of the buffalo may get you again.

So I ask you to do two things. First keep trying, everyday, there are changes, however subtle, things that I grasp that I didn't grasp before. However, for both of us, it takes a while to learn new habits. Which brings me to the second part. I'm asking you to do the same thing you are asking me to do, to try do the same things with me regarding "the facts"

I don't know how you will take this, so I ask you to just read first and then tell me how this makes you feel.

I suggest this because I do believe a lot of negative emotions, hurts and anger are felt because of misunderstandings, and not because either of us is trying to hurt one another.

For example, I didn't mean to hurt YOU in the example above about the custody and visitation issues, but you were hurt. In the same fashion, I am bothered when a question I've asked isn't so much as acknowledged, rhetorical or otherwise.

So what I'm trying to do here is build a bridge, to say that I hear what you are saying and am trying to give examples that demonstrate where I have similar feelings. Not in an attempt to find fault with you. I am aware that as an INFP, you may not take criticism well, but rather as my way of saying, I do understand how you can feel that way because there is a set of circumstances that lead me to feel in a very similar fashion.

Well, I've got to go, this message has not been proofread and may still contain too much of my feelings in the empathetic listener portion. However, let me share my rationale for that, to me empathy means I can feel what you feel, and that is the message I'm trying to relate here, not criticism, but rather identification with those feelings.

Grateful and eternally hopeful,

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Fun is the tough one while I'm on call, so it basically is just marking time. No wild nights out. (Not that I do that anyway) … I did tinker with the car a bit, but didn't see how to get the trunk lock cylinder out of the T-Bird, and none of my repair manuals addressed that either, so I'll post on a T-Bird board. … So I watched TV and played with the cat. <hr /></blockquote>Now that sounds like some mighty mellow, but enjoyable, fun. I mean, what could possibly be better than working on the car, watching some TV, and playing pounce with the cat? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What kind of cat do you have? What kind of dog do you have? Remember, Tony, you get to define what is “fun” and the goal in this is to let yourself feel some happiness if you can. Sometimes just being present in the moment and enjoying it is all the happiness you need, and it’s not big and momentous…it’s just quiet joy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You know, what is sad is that it seems the only emotion I notice that I have is one of those shades of anger.

and

 But, if my only emotion is anger, frustration, being Fed Up, no wonder W doesn't want to be around. <hr /></blockquote>YAY! Oh, Tony you are a joy to my heart! Okay, this is a fairly major breakthrough, actually. If the main emotion I expressed to you was irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, anger and rage, it wouldn’t take you too long to not enjoy being with me. In fact, with friends like that, who needs enemies, right? So the point in all this is not to make you feel guilty or anything, but rather to recognize, “Ah ha! This is what I have been like to be with!” and then to adjust.

Two quick side notes. #1-there is no way that one person can tell a friend this and have it make it through to their heart. If I had said to you directly that the reason your wife was away was because what you were expressing to her was hurtful, you might have argued or thought about it, but it wouldn’t have “made sense” like it makes sense to you now. When the day comes that you understand/see this on your own, it is a good “light-bulb” moment.

#2-this whole concept is what Harley is talking about when he suggests Plan A. I think too many people interpret Plan A as being a doormat and meeting their spouse’s needs while the spouse is actively involved in an affair. NOPE! Plan A is when you realize that what you’re doing and how your behaving and the feelings you’re expressing are not attractive to any human being, including your spouse. Having realized that, Plan A is remembering the person you ARE and becoming the person you are meant to be, so that you are a person who is attractive.

So, Tony-meister, this is why we are practicing joy. Practice being happy. Practice being pleasant to be with. Practice laughing and enjoying life. Now, it’s hard to practice something when you don’t feel that way at all, so if we can gradually introduce some of the fun, friendly, cheerful, courteous, compassionate, kind, gentle, good-hearted feelings that I KNOW you are, why then who wouldn’t want to be with a guy like that?? You’d be back to being the man you are created to be!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />…But what alarms me more is the fact that I don't really have many examples where I feel joy. … I spend a lot of time in prayer and reading scripture, and I don't feel the "Joy of the Lord" … I suppose I'm more at peace, and I don't stay irritated nearly as long, so I suppose that is a start.<hr /></blockquote>I don’t want to assume anything here, so please don’t be offended, but you do know that the joy of the Lord is not like ecstatic bliss poured out of the sky, right? (rib rib) Part of feeling joy is allowing yourself to feel it-as in, giving yourself permission to DO something joyful or giving yourself permission to feel happy even though you’re going through separation. Frankly, I used to feel guilty when I was going through my exH’s affair and our separation and I would feel happy for a few minutes-as if it was disrespectful to feel any happiness. He was leaving and I was “supposed to” be devastated-not happy! Anyway, I got over that (as you can tell). The more you take little moments in your life to have fun-joke-kid-laugh the more joy you will feel. Here’s something little you could do: go to the park and swing. Roll down a hill (it’s REALLY fun!!). Go down the slide. I know-you’re an adult and you’d feel silly, but do it in the evening if you have to, because for a few seconds you’ll feel like a kid and be happy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />…I also had a preliminary performance review and this whole marital trouble issue is affecting my work. … My boss is sympathetic and he notices that I'm getting better, but he gave me "the talk" yesterday, so I better mind my P's and Q's for a while. … I was humbled and just wanted to get it over because I know I've been letting little things go, and haven't been doing as much pro-active support work as he would like.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm…what IS pro-active support work? Is that offering support/maintenance before the customers ask for it or call in an emergency? Is it sort of like preventative support??

Tony, no one likes to have a performance review that is less than stellar, but don’t beat yourself up too badly. I know you tend to be VERY hard on yourself, and so I’m encouraging you to give yourself a break and some understanding. When a couple goes through marital trouble and possibly divorce, it is bound to affect your work because it affects your core being. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve met who discover their H or W is having an A, then lose their job, then lose their spouse, kids, and home-all because they are so hurt and shocked they can’t concentrate. If you can get back on track at work, more power to ya, but if you have difficulty, let yourself be a human and tell your boss so you two can brainstorm solutions together. I’m sure he recognizes that this is temporary and that you can do your job.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think you just did. No I'm not making this up. You just did show me "how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside..."

When I read that, … I realized something, based on the contents of this entire message. That since my predominant emotions expressed recently are negative that’s what comes out when I deal with my W. … So when she says something or tells me how she feels I tell or show her my emotions as well, and often that emotion is a negative one. … So while I'm thinking it's good to express how I feel because that is what I see you or W doing, you take it as I'm not validating your feelings at all. <hr /></blockquote>Very good, grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh, I am so proud of you!! GREAT JOB! You really are getting this! YAY!!

If the predominant emotion that is expressed to your W is irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, and anger-then she is going to associate you with being displeased with her and annoyed at her. OTOH, if the predominant emotion that is expressed is a positive emotion such as kindness or happiness or pleasure, then she will associate you with being pleased with her.

There is no doubt that it IS valuable to express your emotions, whether they are positive or negative, and it is good to be transparently honest and not let things bug you and build into resentment; however, timing is everything! I’m not advocating that you walk on eggshells-that will never work-I’m saying that a wise man knows when to express his opinion and feelings, and when to wait a little and validate now. I’m also not advocating just letting feelings loose all heggitty peggity without some thought and consideration being given-and that goes for both partners. In our discussion here, I did not tell you that I felt angry or hurt without giving some consideration to the timing and receptiveness of the audience (and frankly, I took a guess and a chance); and to be quite frank, I would not advise your W to just express her feelings all over either without due consideration as to YOUR emotional state of being. It’s only fair and mutual.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So when I read that you are apprehensive (how's that for vocabulary, LOL?) about this, first I think well that don't make sense, I'm the one with the problem here. However, I think a bit more about it and realize (perhaps even go so far as to feel) like you really do care and are trying to balance that with some fear that the tail of the buffalo may get you again. <hr /></blockquote>Oh, Tony, you are so right on! It’s a joy to see!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, apprehensive is a wonderful vocabulary word, so let’s use that tonight. Next, you are exactly right about your realization: I really do care, and I am balancing the caring with the being hit by the buffalo swat. BTW, I also do realize that the buffalo did not swat with intent to harm-he just felt something buzzing on his coat and instinct took over.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So I ask you to do two things. First keep trying, everyday, there are changes, however subtle, things that I grasp that I didn't grasp before. However, for both of us, it takes a while to learn new habits. Which brings me to the second part. I'm asking you to do the same thing you are asking me to do, to try do the same things with me regarding "the facts" … I don't know how you will take this, so I ask you to just read first and then tell me how this makes you feel. … I didn't mean to hurt YOU in the example above about the custody and visitation issues, but you were hurt. In the same fashion, I am bothered when a question I've asked isn't so much as acknowledged, rhetorical or otherwise. <hr /></blockquote>OMG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Tony, OF COURSE I’m going to keep trying. You are making wonderful progress and doing a great job. Heck, I wouldn’t give up on you if you were doing a horrible job, but you’re like my star student (haha). I’m literally stunned with your progress and I think you are just AWESOME! You’re changes are far from subtle-they are monumental.

The second request confuses me a little because you didn’t come right out and verbalize what it is you exactly want me to do. I hear that you want me to “try to do the same things with you regarding the facts”…what does that mean? And then you mentioned that you are bothered when one of your questions isn’t acknowledged…
Let me put it this way: with you I am learning and practicing several new things. First, don’t assign/assume emotions that you have not specifically stated you have (in other words, don’t project feelings). Second, as much as possible be factually accurate. Some new things from the last few days are: don’t take it personally-ask if it was meant personally first. Are you asking me to acknowledge each of your questions even if it seems to be rhetorical? If so, cool, I agree. If not, could you please clarify what you would like? Try to be as specific as possible, and I have no problem trying to learn and practice too.

See, the beauty here is that I know you are not going to do perfectly when you are practicing. Heck, I know what ESTJ’s are like and I still took your response personally and I still projected some feelings. I blew it. But I’m practicing too, so when I do blow it, I can re-evaluate, see where I went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time. Same for you. I’m not setting you up for failure, but I do expect that there are going to be times that you blow it. Okay…so re-evaluate, see where you went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So what I'm trying to do here is build a bridge, to say that I hear what you are saying and am trying to give examples that demonstrate where I have similar feelings. Not in an attempt to find fault with you. I am aware that as an INFP, you may not take criticism well, but rather as my way of saying, I do understand how you can feel that way because there is a set of circumstances that lead me to feel in a very similar fashion. <hr /></blockquote>You’re cute. Thank you for trying to be so diplomatic. I appreciate that. I do not take it as a criticism and I totally do understand.

NOW...assignments:

1) Fun. I'd like you to stretch yourself on this one a little, Tony. I know you're on-call so you need to be near a phone, but try for something you remember doing that you just LOVED.

2)Vocabulary. You know! "Apprehensive" What does apprehensive mean to you...and when do you feel apprehensive?

3) Check in. Ahhh...this one is hard for you. Let's see, what would make it easier? How about if you check in upon waking up, lunch, dinner, and bedtime and you ask yourself:
Do I feel happy? Do I feel sad? Do I feel angry? Do I feel peaceful? Do I feel apprehensive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

4) Empathetic listening and response. Oh boy! Our favorite! Here we go--let's give it another try:

"No matter how many times I tell him and tell him and tell him, it's like he doesn't hear me. Why doesn't he just get it? If he felt love toward me, he'd know what to do, and since he doesn't know what to do, he must not love me. Honestly, he knows how to flirt with every other woman on earth--just not me. I don't want to beg for his love and attention anymore. It's degrading. If he can't chase after me, then fine...I give up."

(P.S. this is not, NOT, NOT my voice!!! This is the kind of thing I often hear from wives who have left their husbands. It is an example only...I do not feel this way!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, Tony, what feelings has the writer expressed? What are the feeling words and which words hold more subtle feeling connoctations?

How might you respond empathetically to this writer? In what way could you express that you not only HEAR how she feels, but understand? Can you somehow indicate whether you think she's normal or it's reasonable to feel that way??

GOOD LUCK, and have a lovely weekend. I'll be online tomorrow night, but during the day I'll be at work doing at least a LITTLE work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

CJ,

I just want to give a very short, by most standards, not just mine, update.

I just returned from a game night at church. I arrived late and had to leave early due to work and letting out my German Shepherd doggie.

I have a service call at 3AM, another Sunday at 3AM, and a third scheduled for 6AM on Sunday.

So I can't promise timely updates.

However, today was an up and down day, but I didn't kill any customers, regardless of how much this one particular defense contractor tried to frustrate me.

Stay tuned for further details...

Thanks,

Tony

ps, I think you got the gist of what I was asking to do, but I will give a more complete answer l8r

[ March 19, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

I want to open this with
BEING ON CALL SUCKS My internal clock is now way off and probably will not return to normal until Monday or Tuesday with the 3AM calls this morning and again Sunday morning. Not to mention a 6:30AM call Friday morn.

Ok, enough whine...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Fun is the tough one while I'm on call, so it basically is just marking time. No wild nights out. (Not that I do that anyway) … I did tinker with the car a bit, but didn't see how to get the trunk lock cylinder out of the T-Bird, and none of my repair manuals addressed that either, so I'll post on a T-Bird board. … So I watched TV and played with the cat. <hr /></blockquote>Now that sounds like some mighty mellow, but enjoyable, fun. I mean, what could possibly be better than working on the car, watching some TV, and playing pounce with the cat? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What kind of cat do you have?
<hr /></blockquote>Felinus Maxiumus Fattius. He kinda looks like Garfield, but with a more dainty head to give his girth even more contrast. He exists solely to convert oxygen into C02, fill litter boxes, beg for food, and most recently, to sit on my lap while I try to use the computer.

Mind you, this was a cat that would go out of his way to avoid me.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

What kind of dog do you have?

<hr /></blockquote>German Shepherd, with semi long hair. He is about 95# of puppy, even though he is close to 10 years old now.

His job is to beg to be let outside, only to bark at every moving thing, getting himself called back inside.

He has not learned that barking is NOT a integral part of hunting squirrels or stray cats.

I have helped him catch a rabbit, but he didn't seem to remember the lesson. Although the thought the rabbit tasted pretty good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

Remember, Tony, you get to define what is “fun” and the goal in this is to let yourself feel some happiness if you can. Sometimes just being present in the moment and enjoying it is all the happiness you need, and it’s not big and momentous…it’s just quiet joy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You know, what is sad is that it seems the only emotion I notice that I have is one of those shades of anger.

and

 But, if my only emotion is anger, frustration, being Fed Up, no wonder W doesn't want to be around. <hr /></blockquote>YAY! Oh, Tony you are a joy to my heart! Okay, this is a fairly major breakthrough, actually. If the main emotion I expressed to you was irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, anger and rage, it wouldn’t take you too long to not enjoy being with me. In fact, with friends like that, who needs enemies, right? So the point in all this is not to make you feel guilty or anything, but rather to recognize, “Ah ha! This is what I have been like to be with!” and then to adjust.

Two quick side notes. #1-there is no way that one person can tell a friend this and have it make it through to their heart. If I had said to you directly that the reason your wife was away was because what you were expressing to her was hurtful, you might have argued or thought about it, but it wouldn’t have “made sense” like it makes sense to you now. When the day comes that you understand/see this on your own, it is a good “light-bulb” moment.

#2-this whole concept is what Harley is talking about when he suggests Plan A. I think too many people interpret Plan A as being a doormat and meeting their spouse’s needs while the spouse is actively involved in an affair. NOPE! Plan A is when you realize that what you’re doing and how your behaving and the feelings you’re expressing are not attractive to any human being, including your spouse. Having realized that, Plan A is remembering the person you ARE and becoming the person you are meant to be, so that you are a person who is attractive.

<hr /></blockquote>So you also understand the source of my frustration, that I've not been able to be that attractive person.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


So, Tony-meister, this is why we are practicing joy. Practice being happy. Practice being pleasant to be with. Practice laughing and enjoying life. Now, it’s hard to practice something when you don’t feel that way at all, so if we can gradually introduce some of the fun, friendly, cheerful, courteous, compassionate, kind, gentle, good-hearted feelings that I KNOW you are, why then who wouldn’t want to be with a guy like that?? You’d be back to being the man you are created to be!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />…But what alarms me more is the fact that I don't really have many examples where I feel joy. … I spend a lot of time in prayer and reading scripture, and I don't feel the "Joy of the Lord" … I suppose I'm more at peace, and I don't stay irritated nearly as long, so I suppose that is a start.<hr /></blockquote>I don’t want to assume anything here, so please don’t be offended, but you do know that the joy of the Lord is not like ecstatic bliss poured out of the sky, right? (rib rib) Part of feeling joy is allowing yourself to feel it-as in, giving yourself permission to DO something joyful or giving yourself permission to feel happy even though you’re going through separation. Frankly, I used to feel guilty when I was going through my exH’s affair and our separation and I would feel happy for a few minutes-as if it was disrespectful to feel any happiness. He was leaving and I was “supposed to” be devastated-not happy! Anyway, I got over that (as you can tell). The more you take little moments in your life to have fun-joke-kid-laugh the more joy you will feel. Here’s something little you could do: go to the park and swing. Roll down a hill (it’s REALLY fun!!). Go down the slide. I know-you’re an adult and you’d feel silly, but do it in the evening if you have to, because for a few seconds you’ll feel like a kid and be happy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />…I also had a preliminary performance review and this whole marital trouble issue is affecting my work. … My boss is sympathetic and he notices that I'm getting better, but he gave me "the talk" yesterday, so I better mind my P's and Q's for a while. … I was humbled and just wanted to get it over because I know I've been letting little things go, and haven't been doing as much pro-active support work as he would like.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm…what IS pro-active support work? Is that offering support/maintenance before the customers ask for it or call in an emergency? Is it sort of like preventative support??
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, proactive support is when we try to fix things before they break, preventative maintenance. It's relatively easy to get a companies management interested in this sort of thing. However, it's harder to get them to actually foster an environment where they take the time to be proactive.

It's a delicate balance, because with every say three or four fixes, there is a new bug introduced. This was a pretty standard metric 20 years ago when I was studying software engineering and I really don't think it has changed much in two decades.

It was one of the big reasons folks were saying SDI would never work, and it made me chuckle when Windows 98 came out and in a press release said better than Windows 95 with over 3000 bugs fixed. Or something to that effect. I say, great, over 1000 new improved bugs, oh YEA!!!

So yeah, we try to collect configuration information and system messages and logs to analyze them, detect faults before they occur and to warn customers of potential bugs they face before they cause an unscheduled outage.

You may or may not be surprised to find out how many customers buy redundant hardware to configure a highly available system, only to configure it wrong, create single points of failure than end up crashing their system

I don't know if I went into detail about my contractor friends, but they lost the machine that managed their backups.

They didn't have a good recovery plan for that machine. Seems it makes the recovery of production data really difficult.

I spoke with them yesterday, gave him an idea that will give him a backup of that machine in about 20 minutes and the ability to recover in about 60-90 minutes, all with one CD and a network connection.

All for free too!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

Tony, no one likes to have a performance review that is less than stellar, but don’t beat yourself up too badly. I know you tend to be VERY hard on yourself, and so I’m encouraging you to give yourself a break and some understanding. When a couple goes through marital trouble and possibly divorce, it is bound to affect your work because it affects your core being. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve met who discover their H or W is having an A, then lose their job, then lose their spouse, kids, and home-all because they are so hurt and shocked they can’t concentrate. If you can get back on track at work, more power to ya, but if you have difficulty, let yourself be a human and tell your boss so you two can brainstorm solutions together. I’m sure he recognizes that this is temporary and that you can do your job.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think you just did. No I'm not making this up. You just did show me "how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside..."

When I read that, … I realized something, based on the contents of this entire message. That since my predominant emotions expressed recently are negative that’s what comes out when I deal with my W. … So when she says something or tells me how she feels I tell or show her my emotions as well, and often that emotion is a negative one. … So while I'm thinking it's good to express how I feel because that is what I see you or W doing, you take it as I'm not validating your feelings at all. <hr /></blockquote>Very good, grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh, I am so proud of you!! GREAT JOB! You really are getting this! YAY!!

If the predominant emotion that is expressed to your W is irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, and anger-then she is going to associate you with being displeased with her and annoyed at her. OTOH, if the predominant emotion that is expressed is a positive emotion such as kindness or happiness or pleasure, then she will associate you with being pleased with her.

There is no doubt that it IS valuable to express your emotions, whether they are positive or negative, and it is good to be transparently honest and not let things bug you and build into resentment; however, timing is everything! I’m not advocating that you walk on eggshells-that will never work-I’m saying that a wise man knows when to express his opinion and feelings, and when to wait a little and validate now. I’m also not advocating just letting feelings loose all heggitty peggity without some thought and consideration being given-and that goes for both partners. In our discussion here, I did not tell you that I felt angry or hurt without giving some consideration to the timing and receptiveness of the audience (and frankly, I took a guess and a chance); and to be quite frank, I would not advise your W to just express her feelings all over either without due consideration as to YOUR emotional state of being. It’s only fair and mutual.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So when I read that you are apprehensive (how's that for vocabulary, LOL?) about this, first I think well that don't make sense, I'm the one with the problem here. However, I think a bit more about it and realize (perhaps even go so far as to feel) like you really do care and are trying to balance that with some fear that the tail of the buffalo may get you again. <hr /></blockquote>Oh, Tony, you are so right on! It’s a joy to see!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, apprehensive is a wonderful vocabulary word, so let’s use that tonight. Next, you are exactly right about your realization: I really do care, and I am balancing the caring with the being hit by the buffalo swat. BTW, I also do realize that the buffalo did not swat with intent to harm-he just felt something buzzing on his coat and instinct took over.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So I ask you to do two things. First keep trying, everyday, there are changes, however subtle, things that I grasp that I didn't grasp before. However, for both of us, it takes a while to learn new habits. Which brings me to the second part. I'm asking you to do the same thing you are asking me to do, to try do the same things with me regarding "the facts" … I don't know how you will take this, so I ask you to just read first and then tell me how this makes you feel. … I didn't mean to hurt YOU in the example above about the custody and visitation issues, but you were hurt. In the same fashion, I am bothered when a question I've asked isn't so much as acknowledged, rhetorical or otherwise. <hr /></blockquote>OMG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Tony, OF COURSE I’m going to keep trying. You are making wonderful progress and doing a great job. Heck, I wouldn’t give up on you if you were doing a horrible job, but you’re like my star student (haha). I’m literally stunned with your progress and I think you are just AWESOME! You’re changes are far from subtle-they are monumental.

The second request confuses me a little because you didn’t come right out and verbalize what it is you exactly want me to do. I hear that you want me to “try to do the same things with you regarding the facts”…what does that mean? And then you mentioned that you are bothered when one of your questions isn’t acknowledged…
Let me put it this way: with you I am learning and practicing several new things. First, don’t assign/assume emotions that you have not specifically stated you have (in other words, don’t project feelings). Second, as much as possible be factually accurate. Some new things from the last few days are: don’t take it personally-ask if it was meant personally first. Are you asking me to acknowledge each of your questions even if it seems to be rhetorical? If so, cool, I agree. If not, could you please clarify what you would like? Try to be as specific as possible, and I have no problem trying to learn and practice too.

<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, that's pretty much it. Since you know the fact that I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, make sure you understand the facts. Especially with facts. So if you begin to feel hurt, ask yourself, what is the objective here, because he says he is not trying to hurt me.

Now that doesn't relieve me of the responsiblity of trying not to hurt you. So I'm asking you to share with me how and why you begin to feel hurt. I realize that may feel like I'm asking you to justify your feelings. I don't know how to address that concern. I'll keep telling you and trying to show you that your feelings are yours and there is no right and wrong regarding your feelings. However, I can't promise to understand how you got there, and furthermore, I'd like learn more about how a message was interpreted or perhaps mis-interpreted. Did I phrase is vaguely, for instance?

On to the acknowleging questions. Many of my thoughts are expressed in questions. rhetorical or otherwise. So much like you encourage me to be empathetic and to acknowledge the feelings you express. To say something about my questions does the same thing.

I know I'm making this up as I go along, but I'm trying to build a parallel framework here. So much like me addressing your feelings validates your feelings, addressing my questions validates that what I'm thinking about is important to you.

Even if you don't come to the same conclusions (in the case of a rhetorical question) or have an answer, to say something like I've thought about that too, or that's an interesting question and here are some of my thoughts on it.

Just like you express yourself and connect with others primarily on a feeling basis, I connect with people via their thoughts.

So I get the best connection when you share your thoughts with me.

For instance, I would ask:

What do you think about the designated hitter in baseball? I would be looking for the pros and cons of it all.

You might ask me, do I like the designated hitter rules.

We are both talking about baseball, but we have different ways to view the same subject.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


See, the beauty here is that I know you are not going to do perfectly when you are practicing. Heck, I know what ESTJ’s are like and I still took your response personally and I still projected some feelings. I blew it. But I’m practicing too, so when I do blow it, I can re-evaluate, see where I went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time. Same for you. I’m not setting you up for failure, but I do expect that there are going to be times that you blow it. Okay…so re-evaluate, see where you went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So what I'm trying to do here is build a bridge, to say that I hear what you are saying and am trying to give examples that demonstrate where I have similar feelings. Not in an attempt to find fault with you. I am aware that as an INFP, you may not take criticism well, but rather as my way of saying, I do understand how you can feel that way because there is a set of circumstances that lead me to feel in a very similar fashion. <hr /></blockquote>You’re cute. Thank you for trying to be so diplomatic. I appreciate that. I do not take it as a criticism and I totally do understand.

<hr /></blockquote>That was one of the first things I learned in the past 6 months, is that INFP's can take what seems to me as a minor critique and turn it into something much more than it is.

I go back to the issue of the dishes. For me to say, wouldn't it be easier to just load the dishwasher directly instead of piling up dishes in the sink. I believe my W heard, "He thinks I'm a lousy housekeeper."

No, I just said you don't do the dishes as efficiently as possible.

Well, that what I think happens, and many of the descriptions of the INFP seem to bear this out in many cases.

Of course, YMMV.

Ok, I need to eat, get dressed, and ponder the remainder of my assignments here.

Thanks,

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


NOW...assignments:

1) Fun. I'd like you to stretch yourself on this one a little, Tony. I know you're on-call so you need to be near a phone, but try for something you remember doing that you just LOVED.

2)Vocabulary. You know! "Apprehensive" What does apprehensive mean to you...and when do you feel apprehensive?

3) Check in. Ahhh...this one is hard for you. Let's see, what would make it easier? How about if you check in upon waking up, lunch, dinner, and bedtime and you ask yourself:
Do I feel happy? Do I feel sad? Do I feel angry? Do I feel peaceful? Do I feel apprehensive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

4) Empathetic listening and response. Oh boy! Our favorite! Here we go--let's give it another try:

"No matter how many times I tell him and tell him and tell him, it's like he doesn't hear me. Why doesn't he just get it? If he felt love toward me, he'd know what to do, and since he doesn't know what to do, he must not love me. Honestly, he knows how to flirt with every other woman on earth--just not me. I don't want to beg for his love and attention anymore. It's degrading. If he can't chase after me, then fine...I give up."

(P.S. this is not, NOT, NOT my voice!!! This is the kind of thing I often hear from wives who have left their husbands. It is an example only...I do not feel this way!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, Tony, what feelings has the writer expressed? What are the feeling words and which words hold more subtle feeling connoctations?

How might you respond empathetically to this writer? In what way could you express that you not only HEAR how she feels, but understand? Can you somehow indicate whether you think she's normal or it's reasonable to feel that way??

GOOD LUCK, and have a lovely weekend. I'll be online tomorrow night, but during the day I'll be at work doing at least a LITTLE work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ <hr /></blockquote>

AHH HAAA!

I get it. The responding to your questions thing is sharing THOUGHTS! Gotcha!

I am just leaving work and unable to write a long, involved response to you, but I wanted you to know that I understand what you're saying about the questions (at least, I believe I do) and I'll respect that. It makes sense and seems like courteous fairplay to me.

Second, I'd like to throw out a quick "other side of the coin" on the whole doing dishes thing. As I understand it, from your POV the goal is to do the dishes in the most time/effort-effecient manner. Like your wife, I tend to pile dishes in the sink, but that's because efficiency is not my goal. My goal is to prioritize "doing dishes" on the list of other projects I also need to get done such as: feed family, walk or care for pets, start homework, get son at work, do some work I brought home, help kids with homework, vacuum, wipe off counters and stove, clean kitchen/do dishes, do 2 loads of laundry for clothes tomorrow, pack kids' lunches and backpacks for tomorrow (or at least supervise the packing), sign papers or permission slips or whatever, get kids ready for and into bed, spend some time talking to them about their day and their friends and teachers. With a list like that, I prioritize family time and kid time #1 (helping them, being available for them, organizing them) and kitchen-vaccuum-laundry #2 and my work #3.

Now, just so we're clear, this is not an argument or a disagreement so much as an FYI so you can see how we come to the conclusion we come to. It's not lack of respect for your efficient method, it's just that efficiency is not my highest goal--being there for the kids/family is.

In this instance, if a couple were really squabbling over this (and trust me, people do!) I'd suggest finding mutually respectful ground. If it's bugging you for dishes to sit in the sink, and it bugs her to have you show her how to load the dishwasher, then neither way is building the marriage. There is not one winner and one loser--pick something you can both live with...like, after dinner the kids have 15 minutes to get out their backpacks and get organized to do their homework--and mom and dad work together on the dishes and talk together about their days and squirt each other with the dishes hose and have dishes soap beards. His goal of efficiency (or at least, better efficiency) is met and her goal of close, playful family time together is met--both win and both are saying "your need is important to me."

Oh, and BTW, I have to confess that when my exH showed me how to load the dishwasher properly, I also took it to mean that he thought I was a poor housekeeper. I mean seriously--I was a grown woman and did not care if pans on the bottom is not the way he'd do it. Plus, it was presented to me in a tone and manner that demonstrated irritation and displeasure...as if to say, "Don't you even know how to load a dishwasher?" That's very belittling. So tone means a lot.

Okay--I've got to run for now, and it's funny because I'm almost 42 and I run like a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CJ

Hi Tony!

I'm right in the middle of watching Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live, so you must be pretty special. I love their sarcasm and the fact that they assume their audience knows who Howard Dean is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As I promised, I want to take the time now to at least acknowledge, if not respond to, all your questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Okay, no kidding. I have the time now and I did want to take the time to respond thoroughly.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 I want to open this with
BEING ON CALL SUCKS My internal clock is now way off and probably will not return to normal until Monday or Tuesday with the 3AM calls this morning and again Sunday morning. Not to mention a 6:30AM call Friday morn.

Ok, enough whine... <hr /></blockquote>Would you like some cheese with that whine?? heehee. I know exactly what you mean through about being on call. Being a night owl, I usually "volunteer" for overnight on call, and then pretty much feel sick in the morning. I am currently the night on call for the electronics division of my security company (in other words, if a burgular alarm starts beepeing and the keycode SHOULD turn off the alarm but doesn't--guess who they call? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Yep! I'm also the weekend overnight rape crisis hotline volunteer, and almost every night I get a call from a transexual rape victim with multiple personalities. That guy/gal REALLY needs to talk!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Felinus Maxiumus Fattius. He kinda looks like Garfield, but with a more dainty head to give his girth even more contrast. He exists solely to convert oxygen into C02, fill litter boxes, beg for food, and most recently, to sit on my lap while I try to use the computer.

Mind you, this was a cat that would go out of his way to avoid me. <hr /></blockquote>I'm literally giggling. My cat's name IS Garfield, and he's an orange tiger cat who uses the cartoon strip kitty as his role model. Garfield will eat if I feed it to him. He will eat the dog's food any time I leave it within his sight (just to tease the dog). He will lie on my bed on the spot in the sun all day long...then stretch and walk to the food bowl...then meow and walk to the litter box...then lay back down again becasue he is EXHAUSTED! heehee. He will lie on the back of my couch and pretend he's not watching...then stretch and walk to the food bowl and whine...tease the dog on the way to the litter box...and another day is done!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> German Shepherd, with semi long hair. He is about 95# of puppy, even though he is close to 10 years old now. ... His job is to beg to be let outside, only to bark at every moving thing, getting himself called back inside. ... He has not learned that barking is NOT a integral part of hunting squirrels or stray cats. <hr /></blockquote>Oh, don't give me grief, but my dog is a Maltese. The funny this is, I do not like small dogs and never wanted one, but my exH did. He spent $400 on a purebred and within a month, he left us all and left the dog with us. At the time when the ex left, our puppy was about five months old--he's about 18 months now--and that little guy slept at the foot of my bed every night, and jumped and smiled when I came hom e at night. Eventually, even though he was puppy-crazy and small, he grew on me. In fact, he's at my feet now. His name is Wolfie, but he could EASILY be Odie--that darn cat gets him EVERY time and he's just smiles and tilts his head as if to say, "HUH??"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have helped him catch a rabbit, but he didn't seem to remember the lesson. Although the thought the rabbit tasted pretty good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>EWWWWWW!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So you also understand the source of my frustration, that I've not been able to be that attractive person. <hr /></blockquote>Yep--I can understand that, but I also do know that the attractive person is in there. He sort of got buried by all the shades of anger, and I don't think your W believes he's under there...but he is!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, proactive support is when we try to fix things before they break, preventative maintenance. It's relatively easy to get a companies management interested in this sort of thing. However, it's harder to get them to actually foster an environment where they take the time to be proactive.

It's a delicate balance, because with every say three or four fixes, there is a new bug introduced. This was a pretty standard metric 20 years ago when I was studying software engineering and I really don't think it has changed much in two decades.

It was one of the big reasons folks were saying SDI would never work, and it made me chuckle when Windows 98 came out and in a press release said better than Windows 95 with over 3000 bugs fixed. Or something to that effect. I say, great, over 1000 new improved bugs, oh YEA!!!

So yeah, we try to collect configuration information and system messages and logs to analyze them, detect faults before they occur and to warn customers of potential bugs they face before they cause an unscheduled outage. <hr /></blockquote>Oh my heavens, this is funny. I totally understand what you mean, because our touchscreen restaurant software that we sold, installed, programmed, trained end-users on, and supported was very similar (not on a Windows 98 level--but the "fix three bugs and introduce one more" level). We had preventative maintenance agreements for both software and hardware, and whenever a new, proven-stable version came out, we were busy for days. Yep, we looked at errorlogs and userlogs for potential bugs before they occurred--so I'm right there with ya!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You may or may not be surprised to find out how many customers buy redundant hardware to configure a highly available system, only to configure it wrong, create single points of failure than end up crashing their system. <hr /></blockquote>Nope--not surprised one bit. You would be stunned to know how many restaurants have a terminal as a server, and if that one piece of equipment fails they are DOWN and have no backup and no "crash kit" (which is basically, a sales tax table, a menu with prices, hand-written table checks, and pens!). Nope, ONE piece of equipment which they spill beer and soda on, is their only way of operating their restaurant.

We tell them..."have a redundant hard drive" (nope--they'd have to spend a few hundred extra dollars) or "have a dedicated fileserver safely on a shelf in an office" (nope--a few more feet of wire and an extra PC) or "well at least back up your database and your payroll data" (would yo charge us to come out and do that? we'd have to buy CD's to do that??) OY! End-users, I swear!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't know if I went into detail about my contractor friends, but they lost the machine that managed their backups. ... They didn't have a good recovery plan for that machine. Seems it makes the recovery of production data really difficult. ... I spoke with them yesterday, gave him an idea that will give him a backup of that machine in about 20 minutes and the ability to recover in about 60-90 minutes, all with one CD and a network connection.

All for free too!<hr /></blockquote>WOW! That's an offer! And to be able to restore in 60-90 minutes is stunning. I hope they are wise enought to go for it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yeah, that's pretty much it. Since you know the fact that I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, make sure you understand the facts. Especially with facts. So if you begin to feel hurt, ask yourself, what is the objective here, because he says he is not trying to hurt me.

Now that doesn't relieve me of the responsiblity of trying not to hurt you. So I'm asking you to share with me how and why you begin to feel hurt. I realize that may feel like I'm asking you to justify your feelings. I don't know how to address that concern. I'll keep telling you and trying to show you that your feelings are yours and there is no right and wrong regarding your feelings. However, I can't promise to understand how you got there, and furthermore, I'd like learn more about how a message was interpreted or perhaps mis-interpreted. Did I phrase is vaguely, for instance?<hr /></blockquote>Tony, first let me say that I think I understand what you're asking for, but let me be sure, okay? You would like me to let you know when something is starting to hurt me and ask you if you meant it that way. Then you would like me to explain to you how and why I got hurt so that you might gain some understanding into INFP thinking and hopefully see some patterns.

There's one thing that you asked for that kind of bugged me. You said (and I am quoting here for factual accuracy): "Since you know the fact that I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, make sure you understand the facts. Especially with facts. So if you begin to feel hurt, ask yourself, what is the objective here, because he says he is not trying to hurt me." How do I know if you are or are not trying to hurt me. If I say something that triggers a reaction that should be aimed toward your W but is aimed at me, you can say some pretty hurtful things. Am I supposed to just assume all the time that you are not trying to hurt me? Then what about when you're angry and you say something snappy back? Isn't that kind of trying to hurt someone back who hurt you? And how am I supposed to know what your objective is? See, Tony, I don't mean this cranky but I can not read your mind and I don't build static models of interpretation. Unless you tell me you aren't trying to hurt me, I do not think it is appropriate for me to just assume--nor do I think it's appropriate to assume what your objective is.

What I CAN do is agree to speak up and ask you something like this: "Hey that response hurt me! Did you mean to be hurtful or was that an old habit response or was it an accident and I mis-interpreted it?" This way, I'm not assuming--I'm asking. I can also agree to think the best of you rather than the worst.

One other thing that somewhat bothers me and I'm not sure how to process it (yet--I'll sleep on it) is the concept of promoting/encouraging the "you explain it and I won't be hurt anymore" model. That theory just does not work and I do not want to agree to something that could later be used against me in a manner such as: "you promised to assume I didn't mean to hurt you and if I explained it, you had no reason to feel hurt so you wouldn't." If I agree to that, I believe I am agreeing to encouraging an unhealthy pre-supposition. Sooo...I'll think about it tonight and figure out what I CAN agree to and tell you about it in the morning. Now, morning in the wild, wild west is about 11am your time! haha.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />On to the acknowleging questions. Many of my thoughts are expressed in questions. rhetorical or otherwise. So much like you encourage me to be empathetic and to acknowledge the feelings you express. To say something about my questions does the same thing.<hr /></blockquote>AAAAAAAH HAAAAAAAAAA! Now this I totally understand and it seems like an entirely reasonable and fair request to me. If' I'm going to ask you to learn to be empathetic, it's fair for me to learn to share my thoughts. Let me warn you about two things though: I would like to encourage you to become more empathetic because it makes you a better man...not because "it's fair" or whatever. Embrace empathy because you want to be that kind of person, no matter whether I choose to share my thoughts or not. Second, just a quick check-in...do you want ME to share MY thoughts, or do you want your INFP wife to share her thoughts with you. Just because you learn to be empathetic does not mean she will even WANT to learn to share her thoughts. Did you consider that? She may just close her heart and say, "NO, I am not willing to do that" and you can't make her.

So, my friend, I encourage you to embrace empathy because more of that attractive man is seen then. Don't be empathetic because she said she'd be factual and share her thoughts either, because that's like shoveling dirt off the grave and just throwing more dirt onto the grave.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know I'm making this up as I go along, but I'm trying to build a parallel framework here. So much like me addressing your feelings validates your feelings, addressing my questions validates that what I'm thinking about is important to you.<hr /></blockquote>I want to take a moment right now and say out loud that what you are thinking about is important. Thank you for writing it this way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Even if you don't come to the same conclusions (in the case of a rhetorical question) or have an answer, to say something like I've thought about that too, or that's an interesting question and here are some of my thoughts on it. <hr /></blockquote>Gotcha! See, I'm doing it now. Did you see it or did you miss it? Want me to do it again? Okay...I'll do that!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What do you think about the designated hitter in baseball? I would be looking for the pros and cons of it all.

You might ask me, do I like the designated hitter rules.<hr /></blockquote>I think the designated hitter rule in baseball is ruining the game--but then again I think professional baseball is pretty messed up. Most of the players today are spoiled, pampered brats who have no "love of the game" left in them. I think the only reason a player should ever get a designated hitter is if the player is too injured to bat for himself. Otherwise, I think I pay that player millions of dollars to HIT, RUN, SCORE, CATCH, and THROW on his own!!

AARRGGHH--in case you can't tell, it's a pet peeve and I feel strong emotions about it.

And on that lovely thought (wimpy baseball players who can't even bat for themselves) I bid you a fond good night. I'm tired--it's 1am--and Garfield has awoken from his slumber and raised an eyebrow. I am being summoned into his presence.

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

Responding to What CJ Said Here:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
"No matter how many times I tell him and tell him and tell him, it's like he doesn't hear me. Why doesn't he just get it? If he felt love toward me, he'd know what to do, and since he doesn't know what to do, he must not love me. Honestly, he knows how to flirt with every other woman on earth--just not me. I don't want to beg for his love and attention anymore. It's degrading. If he can't chase after me, then fine...I give up."
<hr /></blockquote>First, I can say that my W has said very similar things, even last night. She doesn't see or believe I love her when we talk about money for instance.

Ok, my answer:

I can hear the frustration here, that you really want him to get it and it seems he doesn't get it. I know it must hurt to feel like you don't matter to him, that you are not the most important person in his life.

I hear that you are weary and want to give up. I think I hear you saying that you've tried everything you know to do, and that you don't feel like trying anymore. I want to say that you are not wrong for wanting to feel loved in a certain way. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to be loved in a certain way.

I'd like to ask you to do this. Instead of focusing on how you think he has failed, I want to ask you what he is doing right. I've heard your complaint and I agree with much of it. Certainly you shouldn't feel like you have to compete with other women for his attention. However, I want to ask you to look at what he is doing right. Why? Because I'd like you to consider if that is his way of showing you his love. Is it possible that he does love you, but just shows it in a different way?

Do you mind if I share the concerns I have about how you feel? Yes, ok, I'll continue.

I have to admit I have trouble with some of what you shared too. For example, I don't agree that he should just know what to do. I hear you saying that you want him to show you love in a certain fashion, but I don't hear you saying that you are looking for how he might be showing you his love.

If so, neither way is inherently right or wrong because each of you are different.

Finally, I ask you to consider if it is fair for you to expect him to love you in your fashion without you accepting the ways he does show his love. Is it possible he feels a similar feeling? Could he be saying, I'm doing X,Y and Z to show her I love her, and she never feels it is good enough?

So can you find middle ground? Acknowledge the ways he does show you he loves you and tell him that you appreciate them, but would appreciate other ways even more. Also consider that he is showing you love in the fashion he wants to be loved. Do you express your love for him in the way you wish he expressed his love for you? Well, if so, then it is just as likely that he is expressing his love for you in a fashion that he wants to experience your love.

I really don't know if this is the case, and I am torn here because I hear your pain, while at the same time, I don't know if you have set up an unreasonable expectation. Only you can answer that question. I can't tell you how to feel, but I ask you to consider the idea that he loves you and is expressing it in his personal fashion.

He may be feeling the same things you do.

Ok, that's my answer, subject more editing.

I'm going to sleep, I hope for about 3 hours, so I can get up and return to church for evening services.

Please read my other thread when you get a chance. DW was kinda upset that I asked her to pray for me. She seems to think I'm trying to manipulate her. I'm not, I just would like her to be a little less skeptical about my prospects for change. I said I'm doing it for me, and I'd simply like to feel like she was supportive and not angry with me all the time.

She said I seemed defensive, and I admitted it was hard to listen to her when she sounds angry at me.

Final thought, we had a ministry fair at church today and I volunteered for the Sunday School department. I used to teach Sunday School as well as was a director at a previous church. They were passing out "Scripture Cookies" (I made that up, I don't think this is a scripture verse) and this is what I got:

"I can run and win the race when I am changed by Jesus Christ and live in ways that please Him."

Isn't Harold great or what?

Eternally Grateful,

Tony

CJ,

I'll address your other posts soon as well. I just cut and pasted the answer I typed into my PDA at 5AM sitting at Denny's between service calls. Really the times were too far apart to return home, and too close together to stay away. But I chose to stay away in order to:

A) Conserve Resources such as time and fuel
B) I'm an extrovert, and I wanted to see people.

I accomplished both, I got to see four patrol cars pick up some "Fast 'n Furious" types at the Denny's as I arrived, saw some cute 20 something girl flirting with one of the guys who worked there, and got a lot of reading, devotional, bible study and did some of my homework.

I would certainly say that I didn't express any of the shades of anger. I didn't even feel them.

However, in Sunday School, I did feel uneasy at times. It is our couples class that W and I used to go to, and obviously, I'm sans partner.

I didn't really feel angry, but was somewhat embarassed and felt guilty that I screwed up my marriage. I know, it takes two, but I can only take responsibility at my part of screwing it up, and I kick myself for not taking my responsiblity as spiritual leader seriously.

So I felt convicted during Sunday School, and even moreso at worship service during the sermon

Well, I'm really tired ad I've been up 11 hours on two hours of sleep. I really couldn't fall asleep last night until about 11pm. I started at about 9PM, but could not relax enough to fall asleep.

1AM came WAAAAAYYYYY too early.

You were just writing as I was getting ready to start my day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 First, I can say that my W has said very similar things, even last night. She doesn't see or believe I love her when we talk about money for instance.<hr /></blockquote>I realize that you have had very little sleep so I'm going to respond very, very briefly to this. When I listen to you talk about money, it's as if you know the right way to spend it and split it, and anyone who disagrees is "wrong." However, I suspect that like the dishes, your goal is most efficient money management and her goal is entirely different--thus if your priorities are different, your views of what to do with the money etc. are bound to be different.

I would suggest asking her what her opinion/proposals would be about the money, and then listening to the deeper message--not the facts and figures. For example, if she says you make $6,000.00 per month and she should get $3,000 and you know that if she were actually paid $3,000 per month, you would have little or no money left--my educated guess would be that your instinct would be to argue facts and figures with her. However, her deeper message is that she feels "entitled" to half of your earning. Thus a more productive answer might be to reassure her that you want to give her what she has earned and has the right to, and that you intend to care for her and your daughter.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I can hear the frustration here, that you really want him to get it and it seems he doesn't get it. I know it must hurt to feel like you don't matter to him, that you are not the most important person in his life.

I hear that you are weary and want to give up. I think I hear you saying that you've tried everything you know to do, and that you don't feel like trying anymore. I want to say that you are not wrong for wanting to feel loved in a certain way. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to be loved in a certain way. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, not too bad! You indicate that you hear what the writer is saying and feeling, and you kind of translate it into your own paraphrase. Good. You also express understanding and support.

However...if it were me, I would stop here. By continuing on, you lose the impact of your empathy and it seems like you're forcing the writer to "do it your way." Here's the way it is: in real life, you may have expressed your love to her in YOUR way, but you did not communicate in her way, so she feels unloved. Then she says to you that she feels unloved, and you say, "Well feel loved MY way." It's not realistically going to work. The ideal would be if BOTH of you were working to educate yourself on the others' way of receiving love, but at this time that is not what is happening. You are currently doing this alone and she has been very explicit that she has no desire to learn "your way"--she has had enough of "your way"--so pushing her to even consider "your way" is going to push her away from you. At this time, please cease all attempts to educate her or change her, and keep your focus ONLY on you and changing you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'd like to ask you to do this. Instead of focusing on how you think he has failed, I want to ask you what he is doing right. I've heard your complaint and I agree with much of it. Certainly you shouldn't feel like you have to compete with other women for his attention. However, I want to ask you to look at what he is doing right. Why? Because I'd like you to consider if that is his way of showing you his love. Is it possible that he does love you, but just shows it in a different way? <hr /></blockquote>If it were me, I would think at this point, "If there were enough things he did right, I would have stayed!" I doubt if you want to even hear the rest. My guess would be that speaking like this to her would not express empathy--it would be viewed as manipulation and would be resisted. If that is what you want to have happen (she hardens her heart, doesn't feel understood, and views you as manipulative and resists you) then I say make her see that you showed her love your way. Otherwise, if that is NOT the desired outcome, I would strongly suggest that you stop focusing on YOUR frustration and YOUR hurt, and focus on how unloved, unappreciated, unacknowledged, and disrespected she feels and focus on validating her feelings. It's up to you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you mind if I share the concerns I have about how you feel? Yes, ok, I'll continue.

I have to admit I have trouble with some of what you shared too. For example, I don't agree that he should just know what to do. I hear you saying that you want him to show you love in a certain fashion, but I don't hear you saying that you are looking for how he might be showing you his love.

If so, neither way is inherently right or wrong because each of you are different.<hr /></blockquote>Honestly, I would not even be listening at this point. If my spouse knows how to flirt with a waitress at Hooters, he knows how to flirt with me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to say out loud that women are pretty or sexy then he knows how to say that out loud to me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to spend time with and laugh with and appear interested in women at work or customers, then he know how to spend time with and laugh with and appear interested in me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to write hot sexual emails to women on the internet, he knows how to write hot sexual emails to me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to invite other women to go to a ballgame with him or a concert or to dinner, then he knows how to invite me to a ballgame with him or a concert or dinner and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to be flirtatious and kid around with and hold his irritation and displeasure and temper with his co-workers and superiors, then he knows how to be firtatious and kid around with and hold his temper with me and chooses not to.

He knows how to love me in my way and chooses not to. So yep--at this point I'm probably not even listening.

(BTW Tony, this is partially my own real voice and partially what I think an INFP woman in your W's position might feel/think. Yes, not every spouse flirts with the girls at Hooters in her presence--that's my experience--but every INFP woman would probably have a list about that long of how her spouse knows how to act interested and loving, just not toward her. Does that make sense? It is an example--and I drew on my own life experiences to come up with the examples.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally, I ask you to consider if it is fair for you to expect him to love you in your fashion without you accepting the ways he does show his love. Is it possible he feels a similar feeling? Could he be saying, I'm doing X,Y and Z to show her I love her, and she never feels it is good enough?

So can you find middle ground? Acknowledge the ways he does show you he loves you and tell him that you appreciate them, but would appreciate other ways even more. Also consider that he is showing you love in the fashion he wants to be loved. Do you express your love for him in the way you wish he expressed his love for you? Well, if so, then it is just as likely that he is expressing his love for you in a fashion that he wants to experience your love.

I really don't know if this is the case, and I am torn here because I hear your pain, while at the same time, I don't know if you have set up an unreasonable expectation. Only you can answer that question. I can't tell you how to feel, but I ask you to consider the idea that he loves you and is expressing it in his personal fashion.<hr /></blockquote>I think it's probably wisest not to comment further because I believe you get the gist of my opinion on saying this. However, I will comment that the "unreasonable expectation" part would definitely be viewed as you saying that you think being asked to be loved in her own way is unreasonable. I pretty much guarantee that hearing that will drive her away. Wouldn't you feel pushed away if I said to you that it is unreasonable for you to expect to be loved in your way?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please read my other thread when you get a chance. DW was kinda upset that I asked her to pray for me. She seems to think I'm trying to manipulate her. I'm not, I just would like her to be a little less skeptical about my prospects for change. I said I'm doing it for me, and I'd simply like to feel like she was supportive and not angry with me all the time.

She said I seemed defensive, and I admitted it was hard to listen to her when she sounds angry at me.<hr /></blockquote>Okay--I will read your other thread. I know your intentions are good and your heart is in the right place, but I suspect her heart may not be in the right place to hear what you've been learning. Remember, her experience has been that you are irritated and displeased with her all the time, so she's looking to hear that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"I can run and win the race when I am changed by Jesus Christ and live in ways that please Him."<hr /></blockquote>Tony, I want you to bear in mind that I am not cutting you down or saying you are "bad" or "wrong", but rather proofreading your practice response and informing you what I believe the INFP response would be (or close to it anyway). In summary, I would respond with the first two empathetic, understanding, supportive paragraphs and then STOP THERE. At this time, your job is not to make her see your side or your pain or even to educate her--your job is to release the shades of anger that have been the primary expression to her, and to focus on understanding her and her pain. NOTHING ELSE.

Okay?? Focus, and keep the scope of that focus pretty narrow.

Your true and faithful friend,

CJ

Ok,

So even thought I said these very words "I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to be loved in a certain way."

Yet you tell me that what you are hearing is that I think this is unreasonable.

When everything I say after that is, that perhaps it's unreasonable to expect that as the ONLY way his love is expressed.

I never said the words, wanting to be loved in that way is unreasonable.

I did say that not accepting other ways of being loved MAY be unreasonable, but only she is in the position to judge that.

Furthermore, you asked me if I thought she was reasonable, didn't you?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> CJ Asked:
How might you respond empathetically to this writer? In what way could you express that you not only HEAR how she feels, but understand? Can you somehow indicate whether you think she's normal or it's reasonable to feel that way??<hr /></blockquote>I did just that, I shared what I thought was reasonable and I asked her to consider if he also was being resonable from his POV.

So I'm confused how you get from me asking her to consider his POV to saying that she is being unreasonable?

I really don't see this.

That to me seems unreasonable.

Are you saying I'm not allowed to ask her to think?
What about asking how she believes he might feel?

Ok, I get the impression that when a feeler is feeling, that I need to totally repress the thinker in me.

I have a hard time with this, and how do I square this with the whole idea of honesty.

I don't think it is honest for me to withhold my thoughts, especially when you ask me the question about being reasonable.

I know, I probably sound like I'm defending. I'm just trying to tell you how I got to where I am.

It's obvious based on my marriage that I've done this all wrong. I've driven my wife and step daughter away from me, and I'm sitting at home alone tonight typing on the internet instead of talking to a real live person.

I'm tired and not in the best shape right now, so let me sleep on this a while. I'll probably be up at 4AM unless the pager goes off.

Oh, on the other question about what I was asking you to do.

You asked me to control my feelings in a previous message. I supposed I could go look, but I got the impression that you wanted me to hold back...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CJ:
There is no doubt that it IS valuable to express your emotions, whether they are positive or negative, and it is good to be transparently honest and not let things bug you and build into resentment; however, timing is everything! I’m not advocating that you walk on eggshells-that will never work-I’m saying that a wise man knows when to express his opinion and feelings, and when to wait a little and validate now. I’m also not advocating just letting feelings loose all heggitty peggity without some thought and consideration being given-and that goes for both partners. In our discussion here, I did not tell you that I felt angry or hurt without giving some consideration to the timing and receptiveness of the audience (and frankly, I took a guess and a chance); and to be quite frank, I would not advise your W to just express her feelings all over either without due consideration as to YOUR emotional state of being. It’s only fair and mutual.<hr /></blockquote>I know you are saying this for both partners, and I think basically I'm saying the same thing, to hold back until you are sure you understand.

I'm just beginning to wonder if I should be married to an INFP. Last night W said she felt I took her Identity from her.

Now I didn't say what I was thinking, which was how could you let me do that and not tell me you felt that way. What I said was I know this doesn't take the hurt away, but I never wanted to change you or take your identity away from you, so I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

But there is a part of me that wants to say, how could you let someone do that to you without speaking up.

However, it does give me great insight into how she feels. What it doesn't do is make her attractive to me. It appears more like a self-confidence issue.

I just don't know. This is probably all disjointed and confused. Well, that is how my mind is right now.

Eternally Confused, or so it seems,

Tony

Oh, one more thing.

I took the empathetic listening exercise as the writer was talking about a third person and not about me.

I'm somewhat confused by your response because it seems like that person has morphed into my wife in your mind.

I never thought of the writer as my wife, but a friend who was venting to me about her SO.

Next time, I'll ask who the participants are in the discussion. Maybe I missed it if you said I'm supposed to treat each of these as a conversation with my wife.

However, I do understand the point that I should not express what I think or feel in such a situation.

Tony

A second one more thing, LOL

I went to lie down and had what may be an Ah Ha! moment.

I was trying to turn the conversation from feelings to thinking. I was in essence, asking the writer to stop telling me how she feels and start thinking about it.

This would be bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and even if she agreed with my logic, she would feel her feelings were not important.

Tony

Pager called me out of my sleep at midnight, so I'm off to work early this morning instead of doing homework, bible reading, devotional, etc.

I will check in with myself today if I can stay awake...

Thanks,

Tony

Checking In.

I'm not sure I have any other assignments due.

Well, I'm laughing pretty hard right now, watching South Park. Jesus vs Satan

Anyway, how about the last few days.

Well, I've decided to just work on moving on. Looked into refinancing the house and other stuff.

I still catch myself getting impatient, but then I get that under control.

Driving is the hardest as people do the strangest things behind the wheel. I saw two tow truck drivers who worked for the same company teasing each other in the company trucks this morning by swerving into each others lanes and flipping each other off.

Well, I did have the urge to call the number on the trucks, but I decided they hadn't hurt anyone, so what they heck.

I usually find myself getting impatient behind the wheel.

Well, I am getting better at that.

Working out is helping too. Taking out my frustration on stacks of iron really helps.

Well, off to bed. I'm taking the day off tomorrow so I can pick up YD after preschool and have more time with her.

Tony

Checking In,

Last night, I had dinner with a couple from my Sunday School class. They are relatively new to the area and have a 2.5 year old child.

YD had a great time playing with them. So I got to do my E thing, and his W is also an E with F tendancies. He is definately an I, and if I were to guess, probably an ISTJ. Pilot, Air Force, etc.

She, a writer of sorts wanting to write more.

All sorts of emotions. Yesterday, while on the phone with you, a little red light illuminated on the dash of the T-Bird. Oil pressure gauge near but not on Zero. So I have to admit that while talking to you, I was listening for things such as bearing knock and valve clatter.

No sounds, so I kept driving. Hey, what's the worst thing that happens, the car blows the engine, is valued at less money and W gets less of the 401K funds, LOL???

Ok, so I get YD and we go to lunch, build-a-bear etc.

BTW, the gauge drops to zero and recovers, but never fully to the mid-point of it's range. I had done a bit of research before and knew the gauge is just a "dummy" gauge as it really doesn't measure oil pressure. Instead, the sending unit is a swtich and the resistance is set to read mid-gauge if the oil pressure is above 6psi. Since mine didn't read at the mid-point, I suspected the sending unit, or the gauge itself was bad.

That why I was momentarily worried when the red "Check Gauges" (or should that be the Check Wallet) light came on. However, knowing what I know, and gathering more information, I analyzed the information, and stopped worrying.

However it came on several more times yesterday, so off to AutoZone (the only place that had a oil pressure sending switch) while on the way to dinner last night.

So I would get a little upset everytime the light came on, because there was always the possibility that I was wrong about the diagnosis.

But for $4.99 +tax, I would gamble on a pressure sending switch.

So this morning, I get up, make breakfast for me and YD, and we then went outside, and I changed the sending unit.

Gauge reads dead straight in the middle, so all is well, and I feel satisfied that for $5 and 30 minutes of my time, give or take, I have one less worry.

Ok, so I've checked in quite a bit. Maybe an assignment for Sunday AM or Monday AM would be nice. I think I still owe you a feeling word definition, I'm not sure.

Off to the showers, gotta run to Springfield, IL today. I'll feel better in the T-Bird w/o that red light going off every 10-15 minutes, LOL

Tony

Brother Java,

I can not (for the life of me) remember where we left off so I'm going to just start anew. However, let me first address a few pressing issues.

#1--I did read your comments several posts back about how it was unreasonable to not expect your wife to see that she was being unreasonable (or something). Suffice it to say that I mostly considered your comments that day to be the result of exhaustion and sleep deprivation.

I can summarize this, though. Our goal here is not to "make" your wife understand YOU--but rather for you to practice understanding your wife. Thus, to get distracted from understanding HER is to be distracted from the goal. No, I do not want you to "hold back" or be dishonest, but the effort at this time is to learn how to be an empathetic listener--not to learn how to make people see things from your point of view.

We have a very limited, targeted goal here: to learn to become an empathetic listener. To me, being an empathetic listener means being an active LISTENER and actually listening to what the speaker/writer is saying rather than plotting your response; accurately reflecting the essence of speaker/writer's feelings and surrounding circumstances; and by your response, adding to the speaker/writer's self-understanding.

Does that make sense to you? Our goal is not to "make" your wife understand that she has also not seen your side of things, or that she has participated by not recognizing the ways that you said "I love you" in your language, or that she has some responsibility too (because frankly, we can not "make" anyone see anything they do not want to see and are not ready to see). That does not make these facts any less TRUE...it's just not where our attention is right now. Let's stay focused.

#2--I believe it has been confusing and harmful for me to try to write in other people's voices or as "practice" typical people pretending this is something a spouse might say. It detracts from the practice to have to figure out if this written paragraph is CJ's voice, example of W's voice, or just a generic voice, etc. Soooo... from this day forward I have decided to write in MY voice only. That way, whatever I write, I said. I think it will cut down on confusion.

#3--I also think it has been confusing to have you try practice responses when I have not made it clear what I am looking for. I am not very good at "defining perimeters" because invariably there is a rule that is bent or forgotten and then the point of the lesson is lost on noticing the broken rule. Soooo...I'm going to write in my own voice--follow it by an example of what might be an empathetic response (with play-by-play analysis) and then invite you to try.

Here are the new, "let's start over" assignments that I would like you to try to do on Tuesday, March 30th:

1) FUN--I would like you to buy a ROLL of bubblegum at the nearest 7-11/convenience store and eat it all at once and try to blow the world-record-setting bubble. JUST TRY IT!! Then watch one episode of SpongeBob and laugh like you mean it. Belly laugh until you're gasping for air and crying. Three Stooges also works.

2) WORD--"serene" What does that word mean to you? Have you ever felt serene? What does it feel like? Is serenity a goal of yours?

3) CHECK-IN--Please check-in with yourself upon waking up, lunchtime, dinnertime, and upon laying down at the end of the day. Take time to dig a little deeper than "frustrated" or "happy" and really speak to yourself and see how you are doing at that moment.

4) EMPATHETIC LISTENING--Here we go! A new paragraph, a new voice (JUST MINE!!) and a new example:

"I get so angry with my exH sometimes, because it was not a mutual marriage. It was clearly not mutual, and I didn't see it that it was so one-sided until it was over! I thought he would be there for me like I had been there for him so many times before and he wasn't. I thought he would choose me above all others and he didn't. I didn't turn from him with all his physical and mental illnesses--instead I determined to work WITH them and adjust myself to work it out--yet he ran away when I needed him to do for me. I was CHEATED! I was building a future, a business, and a life, and all that was taken from me when he chose his sex addiction over me. I was the faithful one. I was the one who worked and worked and worked, and I get so angry at times that I have to start over."

EXAMPLE RESPONSE: "Right now your divorce is still hurting you. Being married was such a big part of your identity that you feel like you were robbed of that part of you, right? I'm wondering if you aren't feeling anger because it's so scary to lose your marriage and have to redefine your identity."

Here's why that's an empathetic response: Because the listener listened to the writer and paid attention. The listener then summarized in their own words what they thought the writer was feeling and asked if that was right (if it was not right, then the writer has the chance to say "not quite" and explain it again). Finally, if offered the writer an insight into their own self-understanding (in other words, helped the writer to see something about themself).

NOW YOU TRY.....

CJ

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 Brother Java,

<snip> no pun intended </snip>

1) FUN--I would like you to buy a ROLL of bubblegum at the nearest 7-11/convenience store and eat it all at once and try to blow the world-record-setting bubble. JUST TRY IT!! Then watch one episode of SpongeBob and laugh like you mean it. Belly laugh until you're gasping for air and crying. Three Stooges also works.

<hr /></blockquote>How about web based training, tee hee. I came home to take some web based training I had to finish by the end of the month.

Bubble Yum doesn't hold it's flavor very long. I think I'll snap some digital pix of my bubbles to demonstrate that I'm doing my homework. Not to mention YD may get a big kick out of them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


2) WORD--"serene" What does that word mean to you? Have you ever felt serene? What does it feel like? Is serenity a goal of yours?

<hr /></blockquote>Does this fall under the humor category. I keep getting this mental image of George Castanza's father (from Seinfeld) yelling Serenity Now! Serenity Now!

If you recall that word image I painted about being up early in the morning after a snowfall of say 6" or more, when there are no cars going, and all the animals are safely huddled up, that is serenity. Totally calm, nothing disturbing me. It is quiet in the world and in my mind.

I can look up and not see a cloud in the pre-dawn sky as I stand in the silvery moonlight just looking at the stars. The snowstorm has passed and the whole world is at peace.

That is serenity.

I think I'd like to be the guy who drives the snowplow 8^)
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

3) CHECK-IN--Please check-in with yourself upon waking up, lunchtime, dinnertime, and upon laying down at the end of the day. Take time to dig a little deeper than "frustrated" or "happy" and really speak to yourself and see how you are doing at that moment.

<hr /></blockquote>Since my moods don't really vary, I'd say the tone of the day is satisfied. Got a call from the mortgage broker, should have no problems refinancing the house in my name only. The only minor issue is explaining why WW didn't pay her credit card bill that has my name on it.

So a short note explaining this should be all that is necessary.

I'm going to go workout before my men's bible study tonight, so I should get plenty of "E" time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:


4) EMPATHETIC LISTENING--Here we go! A new paragraph, a new voice (JUST MINE!!) and a new example:

"I get so angry with my exH sometimes, because it was not a mutual marriage. It was clearly not mutual, and I didn't see it that it was so one-sided until it was over! I thought he would be there for me like I had been there for him so many times before and he wasn't. I thought he would choose me above all others and he didn't. I didn't turn from him with all his physical and mental illnesses--instead I determined to work WITH them and adjust myself to work it out--yet he ran away when I needed him to do for me. I was CHEATED! I was building a future, a business, and a life, and all that was taken from me when he chose his sex addiction over me. I was the faithful one. I was the one who worked and worked and worked, and I get so angry at times that I have to start over."

EXAMPLE RESPONSE: "Right now your divorce is still hurting you. Being married was such a big part of your identity that you feel like you were robbed of that part of you, right? I'm wondering if you aren't feeling anger because it's so scary to lose your marriage and have to redefine your identity."

Here's why that's an empathetic response: Because the listener listened to the writer and paid attention. The listener then summarized in their own words what they thought the writer was feeling and asked if that was right (if it was not right, then the writer has the chance to say "not quite" and explain it again). Finally, if offered the writer an insight into their own self-understanding (in other words, helped the writer to see something about themself).

NOW YOU TRY.....

CJ <hr /></blockquote>Wow, that must have really hurt. I can imagine that not only did you feel betrayed by the affair, but you also felt cheated by the uneven participation in the marriage. You gave your all, your mind, body, and spirit were all given, and he chose someone else. I can feel that pain, to feel abandoned and rejected when all you wanted to do was accept him and help him.

It must really hurt to feel you did the right things and still experienced such a horrible outcome. You expected a partner, and you got so much less.

Tony

OMG, I'm in tears.

The student has undone the master.

CJ

P.S. Don't be upset or worried. My exH said something to me today that was a "to the core" thing, and well what you wrote was ... I don't know. It really got me and I can't think straight when I'm crying. I'll write in a bit when I'm not a whirlwind.

"CoffeeTalk--I'm vaklempt. Talk amongst yourselves. Here's the topic: Is Janet Jackson really Michael in drag?"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
 OMG, I'm in tears.

The student has undone the master.

CJ

P.S. Don't be upset or worried. My exH said something to me today that was a "to the core" thing, and well what you wrote was ... I don't know. It really got me and I can't think straight when I'm crying. I'll write in a bit when I'm not a whirlwind.

"CoffeeTalk--I'm vaklempt. Talk amongst yourselves. Here's the topic: Is Janet Jackson really Michael in drag?" <hr /></blockquote>CJ,

So this is one of those, I have some deep feelings, but I don't know how to put them into words sort of deals, huh?

Well, feel free (no pun intended) to take your time, feel those feelings, and then when you feel comfortable, share what you are comfortable sharing.

BTW, Michael is Michael in drag!

Tony
Sipping on a Light Vienna Roast

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So this is one of those, I have some deep feelings, but I don't know how to put them into words sort of deals, huh?<hr /></blockquote>First, the Light Vienna Roast is such a low blow. Ahhhhh...the smooth flavor of a light vienna roast. It's so mmmmmm it's almost creamy in it's delivery. And light is so non-bitter, non-acidic, and unoffending--a bit like a french roast but not so rich. It's just a Perfect nightime sip or pleasant early-morning-start your day sip. (dreamy smile)

Okay...here's what happened--try to follow this stream of consciousness pathway! Let's see, about 2 weeks ago my exH was acting tired, grouchy, stressed, etc. so I asked him what was wrong and could I help. He generally whined about work for a while, then asked if I could help him with designing his web page. It's in MS Publisher so of course I could help with that, and I said, "Yes" About ten days later, I had a wonderful web page built that I was satisfied with, and I gave it to him. He took it home, looked at it for two days, and didn't speak to me so I could not tell what he thought of it. Well, lo and behold YESTERDAY he calls and here's what he said (and I will do my best to quote): "CJ, I totally underestimated you. I did not know what I had when I had you as my business partner."

CJ:(cough up the half-swallowed sandwich) HUH???

Ex: "I mean I had no idea how smart you were and how much you did for me...for us. I took you for granted."

(silence...crickets chirping)

CJ: "I don't know how to respond to that, so how about if I just say thank you for saying that?"

Ex: "okay, bye."

Now, at first glance you might think, "HEY, the dude is finally starting to see the light!" and get excited. Or you might think, "Boy, what BS wouldn't love hear their WS say that to them after the divorce is final?" Well...I waited for years to hear something like that, and when I did hear it, I was stunned to discover that I felt ANGRY. Yep...ANGRY.

WHY NOW??? I waited for him for Years and Years hoping, wishing, praying that he would think of me as valuable. Why couldn't he have seen this before he pulverized my heart?

A BUSINESS partner. Ugh, it's always work! Work is like a darn OW with him--he loves it and spends free time and play time on it. He invests himself in "work" and desires "work." And I'm a valuable "business partner." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I've known all along that I am a smart, capable, impressive business person--he just didn't believed in me! I wish I was valuable to him because I am precious--not because I can do taxes and he can't.

Sigh.

And finally, there's the sadness of knowing that he does this to me a couple of times each year (like 5-6 times): he'll tell me something kind of deep like this, and I get my hopes up a little bit, and within a few days he's right back to hating me and treating me abusively--and then he teases me for EVER thinking he'd want ME back! Don't be ridiculous!

Anyway, as you can tell, it threw me for a bit of a loop, emotionally. Then...along comes your reply:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Wow, that must have really hurt. I can imagine that not only did you feel betrayed by the affair, but you also felt cheated by the uneven participation in the marriage. You gave your all, your mind, body, and spirit were all given, and he chose someone else. I can feel that pain, to feel abandoned and rejected when all you wanted to do was accept him and help him.

It must really hurt to feel you did the right things and still experienced such a horrible outcome. You expected a partner, and you got so much less.<hr /></blockquote>OY VEY! It DID hurt. It sometimes still hurts! Somehow I thought we were living a mutual life together, and it turns out it was all his and I was like a two-dimensional prop filling the space of "Wife#2". I'm sort of mad at myself that there are parts of me that still love him. I'm sort of mad at myself that I would ever get my hopes up. I'm sort of mad at myself that I did give my ALL and my "ALL" (body, mind, spirit, youth, children, support, home, business) was not equal to a cybersex partner who knew him a few weeks. I feel so darn LITTLE, and I don't mean short. It's more like: "CJ's all = 1/2 inch, cyber yummy = give up anything for." That's pretty (oh what's the word?) deflating. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So....that's the past. That's the little game he plays. Already tonight he's acting angry and mean, so at least this time it didn't last long. And meanwhile, I am trying to dry my tears and get on with the present.

I bet this is something you rarely if ever experience, so let me try to describe it for you. Obviously I felt a little off-kilter from what he said in the afternoon--I mean, it just surprised me enough to feel a little like an old scab was picked off. Then, here was your response, and it was like you SAID OUT LOUD what the scab had been covering. It's like being hit with a tidal wave and being swept away in it. This huge, enormous wall of hurt, anger, rejection and tears bears down and knocks me over, and I've learned to just ride out the wave. But it really feels a lot like being hit by a tidal wave or a tornado.

I think that's about it for tonight. I'm going to think about the serenity snow scene, and hopefully, sleep peacefully. More assignments tomorrow....

CJ

CJ,

I don't know what to say. Maybe I am getting this. The one thing I am getting is that I'm taking too much responsibility for what's going on.

I don't think I'm being dishonest when I say, I really wanted to do many of these things, but didn't have the cooperation from WW.

Like you, I didn't feel like we were a good team. I was very rigid, had to do things the way I wanted to do them, and didn't always consider the feelings of others.

She had her issues too, but it's not proper for me to get into that.

So what I'm saying is I hear you sister. And I can see in you alot of what my W might be feeling. Like why does he get it now. Does he really get it, or is this an attempt at manipulation.

The difference is that I'm trying to get it, and perhaps for him it's only dawning on him what he had.

However, regardless, I feel your pain.

Hey, I only had one outburst today, when my pager went off while at lunch. It sounded the "Alarm" sound, when all it really was was a voice mail.

I'll write more now, no wait, later.

Tony

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
 I don't know what to say. Maybe I am getting this. The one thing I am getting is that I'm taking too much responsibility for what's going on.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, you know what?? You truly are fun to play with (pleasant smile). This is VERY typical, and INFP or ESTJ, when your marriage falls apart you want to somehow find a way to explain it and control it. I see this in rape victims all the time: "It was late...I walked by myself in the dark...I was wearing slutty clothes." Well GEE just because you walk in the dark is no reason to believe you'll get raped, but it gives the traumatized person something to hold onto and say, "X happened and it caused Y. To be safe again, all I have to do is not X."

In your instance (and trust me, I did this too), I think that sentence went something like this: "I was a judgemental, controlling, thinker of a husband, and I hurt her too much because of it. If I learn how to not be judgemental, controlling and thinker, she will love me again." Maybe it wasn't conscious, but that was something like the basic, underlying deal.

In real life (IRL) you have no control over what happened. I mean, yeah, you could have understood about emotional needs and maybe learned to not correct her in public <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but in the end, doing those things does not necessarily lead to divorce just as wearing slutty clothes does not necessarily lead to rape. In summary, your W made the DECISION to divorce no matter what you did or did not do, it was her choice. Yes, it's good for you to learn to be a less judgemental and less critical, but it's also good for her to learn some things too (won't go there--that's not our focus). There are several options other than divorce that could have been selected and weren't. IRL you carry some responsibility and owe it to yourself to work on the issues you have that contributed--but IRL she contributed too and it is HER job and HER duty to herself to work on her own issues. I don't know if I'd call it taking too much responsibility, but I would say that you were thinking you had more ability to control the outcome. Hey, if you had THAT kind of power, you would make yourself rich too!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't think I'm being dishonest when I say, I really wanted to do many of these things, but didn't have the cooperation from WW. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry but you really lost me here, and I'm a pretty good puzzler. I can't figure out what you mean, no matter what angle I look at it from. You say you wanted to "do many of these things"...what things? You wanted to figure out how to be less judgemental, or you wanted to do some of the things I mentioned in my post?? What things?? And if you were going to work on you, why did your wife need to cooperate?? I'm sorry. I am not following you. Would you mind clarifying??

As near as I can tell, what I really wished and prayed for was a marriage in which I had the privilege of supporting and encouraging him to be a better man, and where he had the chance to support and encourage me to be all the CJ I could be. I didn't expect him to be perfect or take all the blame, but I also didn't want to be under the microscope of having to be perfect myself or else I'd get all the blame for "a failure."

So somehow, I think you are talking about this concept of mutuality...that you wanted to be mutual with your W, but she wanted to look at all your faults rather than look at herself and work on her own self. But...that's as far as I got.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Like you, I didn't feel like we were a good team. I was very rigid, had to do things the way I wanted to do them, and didn't always consider the feelings of others.<hr /></blockquote>You know, Tony, that is a common misconception. I thought we could have been a very good team, if he had only had the desire to adapt himself to me as much as I adapted myself to him. Let me give you an example. He is a early morning person. LOVES it! Is very high energy first thing in the morning. I am not. I am a night owl and feel energized and excited at night. Now, at first I was bugged because he was never "in the mood" at night after a good day together--and when I finally got to bed and got a few hours sleep (precious few!), he would wake me up in the morning ready to go! OY! But then I realized that his way was no more right or wrong than my way--just different. And that as his wife, I wanted to make the effort to be a little more responsive in the mornings because that's when he was at his energy peak. Cool--I tried to adapt a bit, and he was very happy, but it never even occurred to him to make the effort to be a little more responsive when *I* was at my energy peak. Like "return the favor" dude! Anyway, in my heart of heart, I think we could have made a great team if there had been a TEAM. There wasn't a team. There was a Captain and...a Star Trek extra I guess.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So what I'm saying is I hear you sister. And I can see in you alot of what my W might be feeling. Like why does he get it now. Does he really get it, or is this an attempt at manipulation.<hr /></blockquote>DING-DING-DING. Rod Roddy, tell him what he's won! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[quote]The difference is that I'm trying to get it, and perhaps for him it's only dawning on him what he had.[/quote

And just so you know, I truly can see the difference. To speak fairly frankly, I think my ex is in a bad place right now--and when he gets like that, the only person he knows he can depend on to not be completely alienated is me. And while my pinkie toe loves him and wishes him the best and holds no ill-will and all, I don't think he has any real desire to change or admit his own issues. Easier to ignore them until they go away.

OTOH, I see you struggling and trying and very often succeeding in trying new ways and learning new things...practicing new skills and making mistakes and learning from them. I see that there is some desire in you to look into the mirror and be honest with yourself even if it's scary and ugly. I keep praying your W will somehow see too.

* * * * *

Shall we do assignments??

1) FUN--share your enormous, flavorless BubbleYum pics with the forum change. Roll that beautiful bubblegum footage.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, IRL you are a Thinker, so I bet you love mind games. Why don't you buy yourself a word puzzle book or a Trivia game you've been wanting and take the time to play?? Put work down and have fun taking some time to play.

2) VOCABULARY--in the form of a question today: What is the difference between "Satisfied" and "Joyful" IYHO??

BTW, I liked your serenity picture. Naturally, being a night owl, my serene scene is at night during a full moon, standing on my balcony looking at the moon casting its silvery shimmer on the new blanket of snow below. The world is silver and silent, and the cool light of the moon is just filled with God's presence.

But I want to ask you this also, as it relates to serenity. Do you ever feel serenity just on a regular basis in normal life? I do. At times, after working all day and after the dinner dishes are done and put away, I look at my home (MY home) and see my kids doing their homework and see my dog looking at me like he's THRILLED to see me and see my cat ignoring me, and I just feel like I am right smack dab in the center of who I am supposed to be. And that is serenity.

3) CHECK-IN--well it seems that rather than checking in at specific times a day, you tend to go with "the tone of the day", so let's go with that. What was the tone of your day AS IT RELATES TO YOUR FEELINGS?? Please use your most accurate and descriptive emotional vocabulary, okay??

4) EMPATHETIC RESPONSE--Oy. Let's practice yet again. I've got my kleenex and I'm ready. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Remember, this is in MY voice.

"You know there are some days when I just get tired of giving. Not that I want to take, but rather, I just have given all I have to give. I feel like a pitcher of cool water, and I pour a little to this thirsty person...that thirsty person...this guy over here...that gal over there, but very few people pour back into me, and eventually I get empty. I'm not sure how, but if I just stop pouring for a while, my pitcher refills itself which is cool and one of the things I really like about me. But sometimes it would be nice to not have the burden of responsibility. I wonder what it would be like to just blow off all responsibility, jump in my car, drive to California, and be selfish and think only of myself? I wonder if I would enjoy that? Well...I'm thinking I need a CJDay."

And empathetic response might be: "It sounds like you are feeling all gived-out and tired. Is that right? You're worth taking care of! Do you have any idea why you give of yourself until you're all used up? It also sounds like you're feeling a lot of responsibility right now. Why is that?" This is an empathetic response because the feelings of the writer are paraphrased to make sure that's what the writer was trying to say, and then some level of self-awareness is discussed with the writer.

Now you try (I've got my kleenex...go for it!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sleepy, Grumpy, and Dopey,

CJ

OMG! A double post! Can you believe it??

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." --James 1:19-20

I just like these verses....thought I would share them since I double posted. What I read in these verses is that God wants me to be teachable. He wants me to be eager to listen to people and take the time to hear their stories, hurts and sorrows. And God wants me to speak after deliberation and pondering, not just a quick, thoughtless reply. He wants me to restrain my tongue and control it. And finally, God wants me to control my anger and use self-control. It's simple, when I am angry with a sinful anger, it does not accomplish God's work...in fact, if anything it destroys God's work and that is the exact OPPOSITE of what I want to do. THUS, I have a duty to actively practice being teachable, to be soft-hearted, to take the time to listen, to hear their words, to choose to consider my response and choose words wisely, to control my anger, and to do God's work.

I think I'm beginning to see why I feel such a big sense of responsibility.

CJ

[ April 02, 2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]

Okay...I am not doing this. I'm tired, but I'm not THAT tired! I think evil aliens have invaded the forum and stolen my posts.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />CJ shared:
"You know there are some days when I just get tired of giving. Not that I want to take, but rather, I just have given all I have to give. I feel like a pitcher of cool water, and I pour a little to this thirsty person...that thirsty person...this guy over here...that gal over there, but very few people pour back into me, and eventually I get empty. I'm not sure how, but if I just stop pouring for a while, my pitcher refills itself which is cool and one of the things I really like about me. But sometimes it would be nice to not have the burden of responsibility. I wonder what it would be like to just blow off all responsibility, jump in my car, drive to California, and be selfish and think only of myself? I wonder if I would enjoy that? Well...I'm thinking I need a CJDay."

<hr /></blockquote>I hear you, so take a CJDay and fill your own pitcher. Aren't your kiddos older, can they take care of themselves? So maybe you can take a CJ day or weekend and fill your own pitcher.

It's great that you recognize this in yourself.

I don't think it's selfish at all to take time for yourself. In fact, I'm relieved that you want to think of yourself, that seems healthy.

The only way you will know if you would enjoy it is to just do it.

Tony

I get such a tickle out of you.

Of course I would enjoy it--I know for a fact I would enjoy it! And get this, my daughter is going to a Nuggets game tonight and my son is going to a school dance tomorrow night, so this weekend is definitely set up to be CJ weekend.

heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm looking forward to it...although I will say that with kids going in opposite directions, it feels unusual to have so much free time. What should I do with it all?? The possibilities seem endless!

Now, I have a question for you--more like a request really. You have done an excellent job being a student and getting the hang of empathetic responding. I personally consider empathetic responding to be a natural skill of an INFP--and apparently a learned skill for an ESTJ. I would like to ask two things:

1) Would you please try practicing an empathetic response to someone else here on our board? Come back and tell me who you responded to, and we'll talk about it, okay??

2) Would you please teach me any natural traits that a Thinker has that you think would be good for me to know--to be a better person or to be a better partner for someone? Thanks for considering that!

I've got to run. I have to make plans for CJ Weekend. Maybe I'll go to the Avs game on Sunday afternoon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

CJ

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=020509;p=1#000005

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

2) Would you please teach me any natural traits that a Thinker has that you think would be good for me to know--to be a better person or to be a better partner for someone? Thanks for considering that!

CJ [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I dunno, I'll try. I think one thing we thinkers do is look at many aspects of a situation.

Personally, I often do math in my head. So if I'm driving along, I might say to myself, Buff, you are going 78 miles an hour, how long will it take you to go the next 100 miles.

So then I say, well, it will take me 60 minutes to go 78 miles, and 66 to go 85.8 and 72 to go 93.6 so about 77 minutes to go 100 miles. (The actual answer is 76.92 minutes.)

You know, I just get a weird pleasure out of being able to do that.

But I'm always thinking about something. Planning to go to Germany to buy a new BMW someday. Thinking about something I need to do for a customer.

Of course, I'm not at my best right now, cold medicine and this is not my optimal time of day, so I'll need to think of some exercises.

But start with doing math in your head.

Tony

Tony,

You are a joy to my heart, I swear! Your reply on the EN forum was very good and I can tell you are trying so hard....good for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do get a tickle out of you. It would seem to me that you may have forgotten I'm Jewish. Not only do I do math in my head, I count money and calculate interest at the same time--then change interest rates "just for fun". Heehee. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Not to perpetuate a stereotype, I'm just kidding around. Actually, I really do math in my head, but probably not in the Thinker way. See, my parents did not believe in calculators when I was a child, so I went through high school doing all my math manually. No problem right? Well, as luck would have it, I am a math genius, so I was put into college-level mathematics courses, and ended up having to do trigonometry and pre-calc IN MY HEAD! OY VEY! When I finally got to calculus my freshman year, it was a BREEZE because I had a calculator, and not one of those fancy T.I. ones either (that cost $90)--oh no! Just a regular old calculator. It was hilarious--statistics was a BREEZE because all I had to do was follow the theories and formulas...Accounting was a dream! Plus by then I had learned 10-key by touch and was keystroking away.

I don't just sit and make up math problems though. I go through the grocery store and figure which is a better deal: BOGO of 12 oz. at $2.79 or 15 oz. at 1.99? Which makes more servings? What's my gas mileage if I went 243 miles on 9.16 gallons. See?? Life junk.

Does that work for you?? Is it close to what you are asking for??

BTW, I'm sorry to hear you have a cold, and I hope you feel better. Wear your SpongeBob jammies--that should help (haha).

You're calculating friend,

CJ

You could always mow my lawn, LOL.

Gonna run back outside and do some more yard work with YD.

I'm still thinking, but I think the bottom line is to understand the ideas and motives of the thinker. Being very careful not to fill in your own motives. In other words, make sure you understand what they are doing and why.

If you guess and get it wrong, at least for me, it is upsetting. I'd rather you ask than to just assume you understand.

Tony