I haven't been here in a long time. It was Oct 2005 when I found out my husband had an affair (he confessed). Since that time I believe he has been faithful, however, there has been no work on the marriage on his part. He says all the right words but there are no actions to back it up. Over the past 3 years, I have become an angry and bitter wife. I'm fed up with his behavior (beyond the infidelity).

I have known for some time that my husband was passive-aggressive (figuring this out AFTER I found out he cheated). But, I didn't realize how serious this behavior was at the time. In fact, I played the perfect MANAGER, RESCUER, and VICTIM for his behavior. When it comes to NEEDS, well, I can just forget ever getting mine met. This is part of the covert hostility I have come to know & trust! He expresses his anger to me (instead of where it belongs - parents) in under-handed ways (knives in my back). Knowing my NEEDS guarantees he will avoid meeting them at all costs. A quote from a book explains this behavior well: "P.A. is playing the game of emotional "get-back" with someone by passively resisting any kind of cooperation with them.."

What is most remarkable to me is that this man who claims to love me (he cannot make emotional connections to anyone) is a Christian who was saved at the beginning of 2005. He is accountable to God for his behavior, yet, is not capable of stopping. Some of it he is aware of & other parts of it he is not. I have to continually point it out in which always sparks denial & arguing.

I am at my breaking point. I'm supposed to be over the hump now (of the infidelity), but instead I'm just in total frustration. Of course, he minimizes where we are at (typical P.A.) Any advice?

Have you been to this website? It looks pretty good, the book they describe:
http://www.passiveaggresive.com/

The problem is I've been investing, working, slaving in this marriage while he spends all his time destroying it. I'm tired of the double duty put upon me to save this marriage. Where is his responsibility?

You see, up until very recently, I took care of everything like he was my son & I was his mother. I made the main income, paid the bills, made the big decisions, made the little decisions, and always kept up the image of a good marriage to the outside world. Well, I'm tired. REAL tired.

Recently (end of September), I got bacterial strep A and laid in bed for 4-1/2 days getting sicker and sicker. My PA husband brought me about 2 drinks and a couple of meals in that time (in which I don't even know if I drank or ate them). In his underhanded way, he allowed me to suffer in agony without seeking medical attention for me.

Finally, due to outside circumstances, I was forced to get out of bed & leave the house. This is when I realized I was too sick to even walk. My sister came & got me to go to the doctor and was in "shock" when she saw me. I was sent to the ER and the CDC was informed. I was immediately hospitalized and put on massive antibiotics. My husband's response? "Well, I knew when I saw you in the ER you looked bad". Hmmm....he didn't notice how bad I looked a few hours before when my sister picked me up? He didn't notice that I wasn't eating or drinking anything in almost 5 days?

This is when I realized how real & scary his PA is. He would have allowed me to die in my home without ever seeking medical attention for me. It has truly changed my perspective on who he is and has destroyed ANY and ALL trust. I cannot trust my life with this man.

I was looking at your stats...did you adopt?

Did your H care for all these babes while you were sick? I have four kids myself, and can forget to take care of some of them at times, lol. Especially with a newbie, who needs so much attention. Two under age one? Who's got time to look after an adult??

I'm not excusing your H's actions (or lack of)...I've got a thread about my H's sneaking out of the house early, leaving me flu-bound with four kids, and my reaction to that...but man, if he was around to care for the children...I'm jealous.

I would venture that this is your real problem. You have no boundaries. A healthy-minded, self-assured wife would not allow her husband to get away with doing nothing. She would be telling him this is not right; I expect more from you; what are you going to do to even the picture? You've been treating him like a child, so he has been acting like it.

Passive aggressive? Then give him consequences. "Honey, I know you don't want to XYZ like you said you would; I don't want to either, but you agree to do it. So whenever you don't do it, I will have to ABC as a result." State it honestly, calmly...and then FOLLOW THROUGH!

Stop propping him up. My IC says that you have to stop supporting him, and he will either fall flat on his face, or learn to stand on his own two feet. HIS choice. Stop enabling him.

W2BS,

I wanted to support Cat's post because it was my life, too. I mothered and then expected my H to act like a man, a caretaker, a father, a partner...still, I mothered.

I had a payoff...I loved resentment more. That's how I acted. I setup my DH even as he expected to be setup. We did this dance, again and again, proving each other right, rather than married.

Because I chose to slave, I resented. Because I chose to over-do, there was nothing for my DH but to underdo.

When I made different choices, I left room. Didn't make us in balance...got me balanced.

Which has made all the difference.

You aren't a good woman who married a bad guy. He isn't a good man who married a bad woman. You are two humans in one union, working out a whole bunch of things.

Learning about healthy boundaries, defining and maintaining them for yourself could actually save your life...you made the call to your sister, not your H, when you were sick, is that correct? So you were letting yourself possibly die until you made that call, too. We have our parts...just our parts.

I had to reach out and get help for my compulsive mothering...and it's reasonable for us to have a hard time with this...for we mother our children...and then to turn our DH's and treat them like one of the children...lump them in with another being to take control and care of--to over-do. Harms our children and our partners, our marriages and ourselves.

Learning to not BE the role is part of what changes your life. Getting rid of "have to" "should" "shouldn'ts" in your vocabulary helps, too. Replace those with "I choose" and life opens up and you become a better, available to experience the equality which already exists in your marriage, with everyone.

And make a vow to yourself, similar to the vows you made to yourself when you married..."I will not do that which I will resent." For no one really wants you to do for them if you will resent them for doing it.

They'd pass.

So would you. "I'm going to make you this dinner but then I'm going to resent you for two hours for it." You'd lose your appetite.

I'm not discounting the PA at all...at times, we still struggle with it in our marriage--and you have PA acts, too. Get to know yours, where your choices come from, if you're scrambling on a treadmill to earn love, respect, security...because if you choose to believe you earn love, you'll earn punishment.

And you'll punish others, too. Even as you require them to earn your love. Drains the love bank quickly and blocks a lot of deposits. Resentment is a maniacal master, jealous of real love...don't feed that beast. Tame it. Understand it. Don't react to it.

It's not you.

And you are not alone.

LA

I think I should rephrase some things. I was in the mother role as a need for survival. I'm not mothering, propping him up, but I didn't want to be homeless. I did what needed to be done to pay the bills.

What I meant about my mothering comment is that it required me saying "this needs to be done" and literally following up with him over & over until it gets done (or do it myself). To me, this is a mother of a teenager, not a spouse. He absolutely will not follow through on anything he says he will do. Boundaries don't work with him. Consequences don't work. Nothing works. I have talked about what is acceptable and what is not (over & over), but when he doesn't follow through, what should happen? No electric? No gas? No home? Filthy house? Three of our children are foster and require that we maintain our utilities and the children not live in filth. So, how do I enforce boundaries or consequences especially when the rest of us are going to suffer along with him???

FOR EXAMPLE: This year, I gave it over completely (the finances). You know what happened? We had to move out of our house, 2 vehicles got repoed, and we sold 1/2 or more of our belongings. Why? Because I handed the responsibility over and let it go. He didn't pay the bills. I'm having to negotiate with the bank to keep us out of foreclosure (we rented our house out). Did he call the bank? I told him he needed to arrange something and he did nothing. My husband WILL allow these consequences to happen - even losing the house and learn nothing from it. So, what boundaries? what consequences are going to do anything with him?

My problem is that once I'm even telling him to do something, I have placed myself in the position of authority. If I say nothing, it's a forgotten topic (EVEN OUR HOUSE). So, what do I do????

I have friends who tell me their husband does this or that (similar in some ways), but I see that their husband also has a long term job and pays the bills. Maybe not perfectly, but not like this. I would say there is an extreme character flaw in him.

The problem is that I have been doing double duty too long. I cannot do it anymore. And what I give up or allow him to do, doesn't get done. It's crazy - I'm telling you. I wish I could emphasize how bad it is. I could go on & on with different ways he's doing this "failing on purpose" routine daily.

CRAZY? Losing keys - house key, truck key, car key - yes all of them randomly but within a month of each other. I've found myself having to crawl through boxes in the garage to get into the house so I can get the 4 little ones in because I never got a house key when we moved. Losing things is his specialty. Now, I'm just giving one example here - how do I set boundaries on losing things? But, there is so much more it is overwhelming to me. I do not have any hope.

Is there really a way that he can become responsible with boundaries and consequences? Please let me know then what I should do.

OH, and no I told my husband to call my sister when I was sick (long story) because at that point he was unable (due to other circumstances) to take me to the doctor. I had a fever of 104.8 and was not really aware of how sick I was because I was sleeping all the time and pretty out of it. That is when you would hope your spouse would step in and be your advocate right? I'm just saying I wouldn't have allowed him to lay in bed that long. It just seems odd to me that he did nothing. FYI- The father of one of my best friends from high school died in a 4 day period of the same bacterial strep A infection (turns into flesh eating bacteria). So, by the grace of God I'm still alive today.

He did take care of the kids while I was sick most of the time. When I was hospitalized, our friends took them for almost a week. However, I feel anything that he does like that - he makes me pay for it later because he SO resents ANY and ALL responsibility.

Adding one more example. My husband met with our Pastor just before Christmas. Monday of this week he was supposed to call and we were supposed to go in together and talk with our Pastor. Well, it's Wednesday and he has yet to call. I reminded him (again, what do I do?) and he said "Oh, yeah, I need to call him", then tonight after he came home from work in my frustration I said "see you don't want to change, you never even called Pastor" and he replied "Yeah, I forgot, I'll call him tomorrow". FYI - Tomorrow = NEVER! So, do I just meet with Pastor without him? It is just very obvious (from actions - not words) that he isn't interested in changing or working on this marriage. I feel at a loss to describe the hopelessness I feel.

He won't follow through with what he agrees to do because he doesn't agree to it, really.

I wasn't safe, either, to be told "No, I'm not going to do that" and yet I said how I wanted his honesty all the time.

Guess what? You can stop doing. You can be homeless with your family...I was. You live. Won't come close to that...he'll step up when you stop smashing him down.

How do I know? I've lived it.

When you are willing to LB your H to get "it" done, then you are putting "it" above the marriage...be it DS, FC, FS...your EN is coming ahead of the union. That's the priority you acted to...so change your priority.

I don't believe if you knew you were doing that, you'd have done it. Most don't. You acted from FEAR not love, again and again. You didn't make him PA...his mother helped in that creation. You just matched his mother.

YOUR boundaries don't go around him. You're not getting this...misapplied boundary enforcements are abuse. They are. Acting to control, make, cause, cure...that's abuse. Can you please not hear me attacking you (like your H hears you attack him) and really get to understand this...

you cannot be the cause, control or cure for anyone on this planet except yourself. Not even your children. Not your partner, either. You are a limited human being.

We all are. I'm asking you to stop patting down your story of what your marriage is and OWN this is your perception, your experience..doesn't make it the truth, just yours. It's valid, not fact.

Thank God, in all sincerity, that nothing works. You're at the precipice of change...get that nothing you can say, do, fix, not fix, make right, make wrong will change another person's choices...

they choose.

He's chosen you throughout your marriage. Every single day. As a gift...couldn't earn it (cause), make him love you too much or too little (control) or stop (cure). He chooses to love and act from it or from fear, same as you. When he reacts to fear, that's the feeling which results...when he acts from love, that's the feeling that results.

Was your H enthusiastic about taking in foster children along with his own? Was he excited and on fire for doing this with you? Is he still? Are you safe to know his fears?

You're already suffering, and so are your children. Your resentment and entitlement are palpable. And it's poison to all your relationships.

WhoDat here on MB said, "Resentment is a poison you take and wait for the other person to die." Put it down. It's not really you.

Why would you give over completely your finances? Why put that on him, as a punishment? A test? Your responsibility for half the finances was still yours...so what resulted was still half your responsibility. Abdicating decisions doesn't make you less responsible. Nothing does. You're half of every relationship you have. You're human.

And isn't that PA? Isn't that what riles you in him, his abdication of his responsibility?

You chose...and you trained him to continually underdo...and expected him to perform and overdo, like you.

You're not him. He's not you. That's why you married him. Do you want to get to know yourself, your choices, their impact, their limits, or do you want to make someone into who you want them to be, act how you want them to act so you can feel safe and loved?

One's a fantasy...find the bits of reality. You are loved. You are safe. That's the human dichotomy.

Your H also resents you to the bone...you have that in common. He fears you. He's terrified of you...and that's gotta hurt inside you. You vowed to be there with him, along side him, his soft place to fall. And what you crave most, you're least giving.

Neither one of you are the bad guy, the wrong person, in this marriage. You each are doing to the other which you abhor the other doing to you. You are each trying desperately to hurt the other enough to stop hurting them.

So stop. Pause. Consider your actions, your choices, where they come from, what you're doing...what your real priorities are and what you just tell yourself. If you put the children first, then be honest and say so. If you want to control more than love, then say so. If you want to feel fantastic about yourself at the expense of others, then say so.

Won't make you anything but what you're doing. It will free you from these cycles and change your dance. Look to you first...and the answers you've been hungering for will come.

In every sentence in your previous post I heard "shouldn't be this way" again and again. I hear that pain...know that pain...frustration...anger...and fear.

Would you please try this...just for one day? Whenever a thought comes to you, "he won't learn from it" flip it over and ask, "What have I learned from it?" When you think, "He lies and agrees and then won't do" ask yourself, what am I lying (by commission or ommission) about, doing that I will resent, and doing it anyway?"

Consequences come...you may have blocked previously many consequences...they still come. There are natural and logical consequences...and yes, you have a hand in the logical ones...you have no control over the natural ones. They come, and keep coming, for decades and lifetimes. You're experiencing a lot of them right now, at this time, yourself.

You stop telling and start sharing...that's what you do. You start sharing your fears, your thoughts...your focus...how you tear him to pieces in your mind, shredding your marriage and yourself, too, in the process. How you hurt, and need his help, his companionship, your love, your teammate. How you perceive him as your enemy when you know he's not.

How you lost your gratitude for his presence...without a word spoken or an action taken. How you stuffed it, and know why...and you explain your thinking of how you discount, dismiss and ignore his love deposits...how your own expectations have tanked so much, deprived and abused yourself of what you want most. A loving, solid, thriving marriage.

You own your part. You do not look to his response to verify, validate, acknowledge or change for you...you'll do that because it's a healthy boundary. YOU will validate, acknowledge him, and change for you.

You stop doing double duty because it is harming your union and it has done devastation. You will promise to say to him when you just did something you didn't really agree with, that you chose to do so you could resent, knew you would resent, and did it anyway.

You break up your affair with resentment, take away the pieces hardened into entitlement, and you commit to respecting your H as the separate and equal human being he is...has been...always will be. No better, no worse, no less whole than you are. You're both complete. You commit to see his choice, acknowledging and validating aloud your stuff as yours, his as his...and focus on being a safe partner, not an enabler, a controller, a mother, a demand, a martyr (God didn't ask you to be and your H feels like one, too).

You stop the blame game...it has no end. You no longer participate in it.

Your H is hurting, fearing, full of anger and frustration, just like you. He's failing on purpose because he, like you, don't realize what really is his responsibility (himself) and what isn't. You've both overlapped, shoved back and forth, and it's time for reality. Takes you KNOWING and acting from that knowledge that...

you cannot really cause, control or cure him. Ever. Never.

His experience is horribly different.

Fear of abandonment feels like annihilation through rejection.

Fear of intimacy feels like annihilation from being taken over.

We all have these...they kick in at different times, usually swinging back and forth between them, making our lives seem to be an all or nothing...too close and we shove away (self-preservation)...and hit too far (self-preservation) and shove back the other...until one of us stops shoving.

Stop shoving. Stand still. Understand reality, make it your goal, from your complex and extensive evidence to the contrary...building evidence of love and let downs.

Do you let your H down? Do you fail him on purpose? Do you spend the majority of your day focused on getting him to do/not do; feel/not feel; think/not think; believe/not believe as he does?

That's self-abandonment..hurts like heck...total fantasy, too. You may feel extremely alone, isolated, deeply rejected, invisible, taken advantage of and walked away from.

And a chunk of that is what you are choosing to focus on...someone else instead of owning your own stuff, keeping your focus in the seat of your inherent power...your choices. Awareness, not blame. Reasonable be feel abandoned when you're doing it to yourself.

Same thing for your H, only on the other side...feeling constantly exmained, criticizied, hearing he's not good enough, not enough, doesn't think, feel, believe, understand right, in the right way, right time...taken over by his focus on you focusing on him. It's tricky. Use a two mirrors.

He can feel engulfed, erased by feeling not abandoned but taken over. I thought that would be great compared to abandoned. lol Until I discovered how far I pushed back when we began real intimacy...for I had to see my real self first to be intimate.

So this focus on him keeps you safe from your fear of intimacy.

Intimacy is knowing your own stuff and sharing it. Period. Knowing our stuff...focusing on our stuff...holding our boundaries firmly around us...oh, it's hard, it hurts and it's sublime...frees us from the cycles, the routines, the habit we have of fantasy, constant control, feeling put upon and helpless...

When you feel helpless, that's a signal to you, from you, that you're focused where you have no power. Helps you bring back your focus to you.

Your H called your sister. That's fact. The rest, judgement. How's that working for you? Pumping up your resentment, giving you that rush of righteousness, being proven right...would you please consider you may well crave feeling righteousness because you haven't experienced rightness? They are really different.

One is fulfilling, joyful, light and free..the other will destroy your life, his life, and your children's lives...as it was handed down to you, so are you passing it on.

Choose differently.

And yes, I had your experience...with a perforated appendix...for four days. Took me ten years to remember the whole of it, in fact. My H drove me to the ER after three days of not doing much...my own expectations nursed that one for years...and when it came down to it, I did what I did...went to bed, discounted, lied to myself, wondered, reached out a little, asked a neighbor by phone for to cure me...

I know a woman who's therapist held her down, choking her, cutting off her air, until she began to loose consciousness...and she didn't fight back. She'd die right, that's for sure. And he'd be wrong for doing it.

She lived. She fought back. Even against herself. For herself. And her world changed.

Yours can too.

You would have done differently...I don't doubt it. I believe you. I believe in you. Doesn't make you more loving, a better partner or more deserving. Makes you you. Also makes you resentful by choice.

When I finally woke up to how corrosive and abusive I really was in my acts of fantasy, to control...I nearly lost my marriage...it was in tatters.

Not anymore. Four years later, we're still here, together, by choice, and he's not losing his keys, his wallet, his car, important papers, valued keepsakes, anymore.

He makes those calls, even the ones to big authority places...he doesn't agree when he doesn't agree...he shares his stuff...and I'm safe to be shared with. He does his acts of love and LOVE himself for them...shares that love, spills and overflows...and yes, when stress, especially work and financial, hit him hard, the old fear reactions arise again...for both of us...we know our buttons...and we catch them...talk about them...together. And put nothing ahead of our union.

Because I chose to not do that which I would resent...and later, so did he...

Be prepared to hear, when you're really safe...that your H sees himself as a pleaser, always acting to please people, make them happy, avoid hurting, frustrating or angering them. You may hear he believes anger is the opposite of love. And that he often experiences his life as if he's about to be abandoned or erased. That he feels he has to be the fixer, the smooth, the adjustor...even as he feels a constant failure, a screw-up.

Just like you may see yourself, too.

God's grace is always present in your life...you are made by his hands from love...it's your material...so did he your H. God makes no junk, no time, no how.

God's reaching for you to experience this life without your expectations being blamed on someone else; not making his creations into failures, living in blame, doing harm to both whom he loves so much. He hurts with you...and with your H. He weeps, too. And he respects you constantly, does not try to control you, cause you or cure you of anything, for anything. He offers. He's safe to hear you, know you and be with you.

He respects you. He gave you choice in your very creation...even to love him, your creator. Remains your choice. And you can't make God love you by what you do, W2BS...you are already loved.

Just as you are already strong.

Are you weak enough, though, now, to make different choices?

LA

LA,

That is alot to take in and I will have to process it a little before I respond.

As for our finances, I just want to say the reason I did what I did is that my husband asked me to based on the preaching & counsel we were getting from our church. One of our friends told us God would never bless our family as long as I was in charge of the finances. So, I decided that instead of rebelling against God's plan, I would allow my husband to take that role. The Bible says that it is his job to manage finances, not mine. So, that is why I did it - not to prove anything at all.

Well, my only suggestion is to do a little research about what the Bible really says and really means, in terms of whether men/women should defer to each other. Not trying to denigrate your beliefs, but there are a lot of different interpretations of what we should do. Looking into them might help your relationship.

By the way, Dave Ramsey has something to say about this very thing. He is a Financial Guru (I would say Financial Advisor except when I said that to my mom the other day, she thought he sold mutual funds) AND he is very definitely based in Christian principles. In fact I heard about him through my church that was offering courses in his "Financial Peace University".

He says whichever spouse is better at it and enjoys it, should do it.

How simple is that?

Why would God give a certain talent to one spouse and not the other, and expect the other to do it and the first one to get all stressed and chew their fingernails and do nothing? So, I respectfully disagree with your friend although I'm sure they meant well.

T/J - LA, I'm getting a lot from reading what you are writing here, even though you aren't writing it to me! THANKS!!!!! *hugs*

I'm better at it, but I hate it. I don't want to do it. It stresses me out and I have no enjoyment at all. But, I can get the job done. So, what do we do in that case?

The Bible has some specifics about responsibility:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

"his own house" So, it is my husband's job to provide. This includes spiritually, but also financial. I do believe that this means taking care of it (stewardship). Why would God tell a man he is required to provide the finances, but not manage it? That wouldn't make sense.

I don't want to do it anymore and I believe after almost 10 years of marriage, I should be allowed to give it over. He didn't help me at all when I was doing it. He didn't know what bills were due or when. He just ran around swiping his debit card and magically money was there. I'm tired.

Of course, I know the finances are just a symptom of the overall problem.

I don't want to get into a debate. I happen to think God gives each of us different talents and we are to use them, not hide them under a rock. I think Dave Ramsey also said (prolly quoting someone else) "if you and your spouse are just alike (have the same talents and strengths) then one of you is redundant." It's a good thing when each member of a couple brings something different to the table.

If you are better at it than your H, but you no longer want to do it, then you make your choice when you hand it over to him, and you know the consequences.

When my kids were little and got eye infections, I didn't want to be the one giving them the eye drops. I have a thing about eyes, I can't even watch someone put in contacts. It's because when I was 2 years old I fell down a flight of stars and had to have stitches in my eyelid... ... but when it came to putting in eyedrops, I was better at holding the kids still and getting the medicine in, than my H was. So I did it, because I didn't want the consequences of wasting half the eyedrops and having to drag the kids back into the dr. to get a refill if we ran out ahead of time.

In all fairness, there's another way of looking at it: that you "rescuing" him by taking over the paperwork, is enabling him. There's something to be said for letting him suffer the consequences of not stepping up to the responsibility of managing the finances.

But that means you will also suffer those consequences.

JMHO but if he's bringing in the money but just isn't talented at allocating the money, then it's ok (and even biblical) for the wife to handle the allocation, for the benefit of the family. See Proverbs 31.

You are wrong about this one. He will not step up - we lost 2 cars this year and our house and almost lost our newborn daughter. And NO, I cannot be homeless - our situation will not allow for it UNLESS I'm willing to lose ALL my children. We have 3 foster kids and are in the middle of an adoption. There is no way any of these kids will stay with us if we are homeless.


I have 3 LB & my husband has 3. I have many times stopped LB for years, but never once has my husband stopped. I guess after a while I get so frustrated, I quit trying. I feel hopeless because it feels like I'm giving up everything and he's giving up nothing.

I also feel like my husband should act like a grown up and I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells for him. And I guess I don't feel like it's abuse to expect your husband to take care of his family and have empathy for others.

Honestly, I hear you and what I feel is that he gets a "get out of jail free card" for being a jerk while I should just live in silence about it. I say this because he doesn't show remorse for his actions nor does he ever pay restitution for anything he has done.

And I don't believe he has chosen me throughout our marriage - I believe he needed me as a lifeboat. Much of our marriage he was 1/2 way out the door (in his mind), but didn't know that he could swim without his lifeboat. So, in a way I feel like an object - not a spouse who is loved. PA's need an object for their hostility and I have been the rescuer, the manager and the victim. I played the roles well. And maybe I don't know how to do anything else.

I know all about poison. I agree with what you said LA. I've been drinking poison for a long time. But, honestly, I feel like it's been forcefed to me.

I've said it a few times. I'm tired. I need a man who can help me for once. I don't have the strength to be the "bigger person" and do all the things you suggest while my husband won't make one effort to help this marriage. He was supposed to call our Pastor on Monday and set up an appointment for both of us to go in (Pastor asked him to do this). Well, it's Friday and no call was ever made. His actions speak volumes to me. He doesn't want to deal with the problems so he ignores them.

Yet, it feels like the responsibility to work on this marriage is all mine? LA, I'm just so tired, and frustrated and sad, and did I say tired?

Please read Psalms 31: 10-31.

It's pretty clear on what a wife's role is.

I don't think you will lose God's blessings if the woman pays the bills and deals with the finances.

Of course the H should help provide, but a woman has a part too.

Why on earth would you want your spouse to take care of finances if they are terrible at it?

Because someone at church said so? I believe the above verses give a much clearer picture. It's a partnership.

Edited to add: Have you told your H how you feel about your marriage and his PA? I would go ahead and talk to your pastor about what is going on anyway. I am sorry for your situation. My husband was this way for about 15 years. He has made many changes for the better. But then, so have I. I didn't deal very well. That being said, I really think you need some help to deal with this, your H not taking care of you when you were that ill speaks loudly to me. I pray you get the help you need.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

W2BS,

I believe you are extremely tired. For me, it took me getting bone-deep tired to change my actions...and soul-deep tired to begin listening to myself.

Part of God's plan, I totally believe. That we become more and more exhausted as we do the same things expecting different results...which involves us choosing our actions based on possible response instead of from our own code.

Built-in friction and resistance...to let us know we're living backwards.

Think about what you're saying...you believe he gets a get-out-of-jail-free card in what I'm saying. You are so distanced from your H's experience, you cannot accept his experience is full of fear, pain and anger. You are DJing...though you may believe you stopped for years because you no longer did it aloud. It harms your marriage even if only in your head.

When you get to the point where you are too tired to argue the why's...and get to the "do's" lemme know. I know you'll get there...that's the poison talking, IMO. And when you get to the point where you can clearly see how much harm you've done your H, then you'll accept he has also done harm. Both of you, to the marriage.

Humans do damage.

How will divorcing your H (or him divorcing you right now) get you those three foster kids adopted? Not halve your finances right now? Are you putting the kids as the top priority?

When you decide to own your actions...you'll see you cannot give up anything...you solely make your choices. He can't make you. And I see you putting other priorities ahead of your marriage, so your marriage is going to suffer, and you both will suffer in it.

Again, Alanon can help you right now...without doubt in my mind.

You're being told what you can change because you're here...he's not. I didn't say a thing about him, not because he's doing anything right...because he's not here, W2BS.

Did you try the flip over at all? I bet your actions, your words, your attitude, your eyes, speak volumes to him, too.

I see a complete map to recovery and thriving in your posts...you've outlined all you need, really clearly...for you to stop doing and begin doing. I really hope you re-read your posts and see this...it's you calling out to you, to stop hurting yourself so badly.

You are worthy--stop injuring yourself and others.

You are whole--stop looking at holes in yourself and others.

You are complete--stop focusing on lack and drama.

In prayers,

LA

PS--why would it be an act of love to make your H, whom for years you have treated like a child, to overnight agree to make him the head of the household like testing him? Would you do that with your kids? Some parents do...overnight, one birthday, poof, you're an adult...instead of sharing...fears, processes, how you made yourself get the bills paid on time...looked into automatic pay...what you worry about, what your weaknesses were, and the day to day steady appreciation and awareness of him choosing to do.

I asked you to speak from love and respect, with self-honesty...not silence.

I think what LA may be saying is that you need to stop focusing on what he is not doing. That leads nowhere. Instead, focus on what you can do. Once the resentment is gone because you no longer expect anything from him, you can react with him from a different perspective, and maybe something will change in him, too.

I have found it helpful to just determine how I can get things done without even having him in the equation. Find solutions to everything on my own, as if I'm not married. Once I've done that, I can let the resentment go. Then he isn't defensive all the time because he senses me being fed up with him. Then he's more willing to pitch in.

In your situation, however, you need to go a step further. You need to determine what your boundaries are, explain them to him, and never again let him overstep those boundaries. For your own sanity. For instance, any bills you rack up will not have my name on the account. Or I will not loan you any money if you overdraw; when he does and asks you for money, remind him of your boundary: "I'm sorry, but I told you I would not bail you out. You'll have to find another solution." That's called protecting your boundaries. My counselor says you have to stop propping up your husband; when you do, he will either fall flat on his face, or learn to stand up on his own.

He says he has no pain, anger or fear! Now, how can I expect to know emotions he doesn't even know he has and literally "doesn't feel". Am I distanced from his experience or is he distanced from his own experience? And if he is so detached from his own experience, then how can I be expected to accept something I don't see, feel or know about?

LA, my husband has read your previous posts as well along with mine. He doesn't even agree with you about what you are saying. I do think it helped for him to hear how tired I feel. He knows he has given me a rough road. And he acknowledges he needs to change, but then he falls right back into the same behaviors.

Again, I don't want to do the finances at all anymore. I have 4 little kids 4 and under to care for on a daily basis (2 of them being 8 months old and 3 months old). That is about all I can do at this point. I can barely get the house clean and laundry for babies who wear more then one outfit a day.

I also have run my own business for 6 years which is exhausting. I'm a residential architect. I had to take off work in 2008 for 5 months since the kids came. At first, my husband was pushing me by asking me "Did you get that project done?" WHILE I was home with the kids all day and when I would say "I cannot do it and take care of the kids". He would then say "We need the money". I believe the pressure is what turned my sickness so serious. (And ladies, I haven't been severely sick in all my life and I don't run to the doctor for prescriptions every time I have a sniffle, so this is why I didn't realize how sick I was - not purposeful neglect)

BTW-I'm not a Proverbs 31 woman. I don't think I will ever have that level of energy or ability. Of course, this woman contributes to the finances of her house, but it does not say it is a requirement or that she needs to provide.

My husband and I agree that it is his responsibility to provide and manage the finances, but doing it is another thing. He doesn't even believe at all that he resents me. This is why LA you say things that even he looks puzzled by, yet expect me to know some hidden pain? I'm not a superwoman. But, I have been trying to be superwoman for some time and I have failed miserably.

Yes, I knew the consequences of giving over our finances and yes, I did it anyway (because of exhaustion). I lived in a beautiful house that I designed & built and now I live in an old, small, dated, cramped house I cannot stand. We are packed like sardines in here (I'm not kidding). And I'm very, very sad that I cannot live in my house anymore. Fortunately, we rented it instead of losing it or selling it because then I can say I still own it. But, will I ever be able to move back there? Who knows!

LA-IN ALL HONESTY - some of what you say I get & some of it I don't. I'm trying to process it and hopefully try to get what you are saying is my part in all this. I certainly know I have done many LB's, but some of the other stuff I don't see at this point so I'm going to have to think on it. I may have to print out the posts and re-read a few times.

Plus, I guess I'm still at a loss for how to deal with my husband. I got one great example with finances, but those boundaries do seem like a parent giving a child instruction again. That is not how an adult should operate, IMO. I will just have to continue to re-read the posts here and consider.

I'll be back with more specific questions as well.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. IF I'm finding solutions to everything on my own and getting things done without him in the equation - THEN I'm right back where I started. This IS what I was doing for years and it worked, but it has drained me. I worked, saved, built, bought, planned, secured, and conquered to give us a great life. My husband just hung on to the lifeboat.

I even gave the same advice to my sister (married to a similar type of man) and she has been successful too. But, this is the double duty I'm talking about. I don't want to do it anymore.

I've got to be honest, ladies, I'm so tired that when I was hospitalized, I thought "wow, I'm finally getting some rest". I took one vacation in the entire time I had my business and wanted many more but couldn't afford to do it. Meanwhile, my husband took a year off work to remodel a house and I ended up having to manage that too and work on it in my spare time. It was horrible. He was goofing off while I was doing triple duty. Ladies, I was doing 2 & 3 all-nighters a month with my work and his - exhausting. And the reason I was doing his is that it was my mother's money who funded the project and she was calling me yelling at me about it because she could not get him to respond at all to her. The project was a 3 mo. project MAX and he worked a year on it? It only got done when I went in and managed him and prioritized it and got to work on it myself. I had to do it for my mother.

It has permanently damaged my & my husband's relationship with my mother, however, she does now see the truth of our marriage - the rose colored classes of Mr. Nice guy are gone.

You sound very smart when it comes to making a living and learning a carreer. Yet you are so in the dark about how to run a successful relationship and marriage.

Your husband is like a 16 year old who you have given a PORCHE to. Do you think he is responsible?

You have tried and tried to sabatage your life. But why? Do you hate yourself?

1. You married an irresponsible selfish man
2. You had 4 kids knowing this man was irresponsible
3. You work hard and give this loser man money
4. You turned over the financial reins to a man who cannot manage it.
5. You listen to some errant idea from the church instead of your own common sense.
6. You continue with this man no matter what he does or how much of a slacker he is.
7. you are still with this man even though he had not the sense to keep YOU FROM DYING! He is a real selfish idiot.
8. You continue to complain about this man but you dont do anything about him.
9. YOu are supporting this man emotionally, spiritually, financially and physically and he gives NOTHING in return!

Honey, when you gonna get some common sense? Get rid of this "millstone" you are supporting. You dont need another child.

Why do you think you need to try and "make it work" when you CANNOT CHANGE THIS MAN, you picked the wrong man to begin with. If you want the rest of your life to be ruined, then give this man more control over your lives and just complain about him.

Your Mom knows the story. Why dont you get a clue!

W2BS,

I am not even CLOSE to being that Psalms 31 gal either! LOL!!!

I only meant to point out that it's okay for a wife to handle finances.

I turned finances over to my H at one point and it was a disaster. I was sick of it and overwhelmed also.

We pretty much work on these things together now, but as I said, he has grown a lot.

I say taking on the foster care children is awesome and certainly describes a Psalm 31 gal.

My H was also very passive aggressive. But yanno? It had nothing to do with me and everything to do with his family of origin. He had to figure it out and change himself. I couldn't do it for him.

You remind me of myself way back when.

I remember being deathly ill and unconscious with the flu for a few days with no care and young children.

At one point I woke up and my DD had gotten into the lemonade and rice crispies, fed herself cause dad had gone to a gig and left me there comatose with the kids. There was rice crispies and lemonade from the kitchen thru the dining room and to the front door. I'm so lucky she didn't take off down the street. Whew!!!

I understand how frustrated you are, especially with the babies, a lot of care and laundry and cleaning.

You are getting a lot of great advice here, this is a great place to be.

Best wishes!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Honestly, I have several reasons.
1. LOVE AND COMMITMENT
2. DON'T LIKE FAILURE
3. NO GUARANTEES OF A MORE SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE TO SOMEONE ELSE.
4. HAVE BABIES I LOVE AND DON'T WANT TO LOSE.

This is Marriage Builders, not Marriage Breakers. I do have common sense and have realized through analyzing my life, that if I start over, there are just no guarantees about what will happen. It's apparent that I could pick someone else just like my husband and find myself re-living the same experience but have a previous failure in my life leaving me wondering why I just didn't figure this one out!!!

Does that make sense?

I know this. My H is just like his mother. Took me a few years to figure her out too. She was always the victim of others - very nice lady, yet, very underhanded and uncooperative as well. The truth is I'll never know the whole truth about my H's childhood because I have a very biased picture painted from a PA mom and a H who cannot remember much of anything about childhood.

What's funny is that my MIL drives my H crazy with her behavior. She has made some small improvements since getting saved just over a year ago! But he knows what the behavior looks like from the outside!!! He just does most of it unconsciously. That is difficult to address.


You know I think what happens when you live with a very PA man for a long time, you get frustrated with others too misunderstanding or downplaying their behavior. My H is so outgoing and nice - people want to tell me how lucky I am all the time. They just don't see the other side of it. I think I need some validation that my feelings are normal.

Hmmm... one thing strikes me, and I hope you aren't offended, but... it sounds like you have over-extended yourself and you need to find some responsibility that you can relinquish, something to say no to. It sounds like you are not able to take care of yourself and your family as it stands right now, and it is having severe and long-term consequences on the family's financial security, your career, and your marriage. So, maybe at this point in time it just isn't wise or feasible for you to care for foster children as well? Can you truly say that you are able to care for your home, your M, your own children AND foster children in the way they deserve, right now?

I hear that you are TIRED, dead tired. It's ok to say no to some things. It really is.

Well, the foster children were not planned. We didn't decide "Oh, let's foster". It is a kinship placement. These are my cousin's kids. So, the only choice is to let them go to their grandmother's (65 yr old, single, does not discipline, gets easily frustrated, raised their father, is not loving)! She's a great grandmother when it comes to buying them things but I think raising them is another concern. The 8 month old baby girl believes already that we are her parents and she has whole-heartedly bonded with us. She was very tramatized when she came at 2-1/2 months & we had to work day & night with her. She screamed if you tried to make eye contact and arched her back away from you when holding her. She is still a high maintenance baby. I cannot imagine sending her to her grandmother now. She would most certainly end up with an attachment disorder.

The 2 & 4 year old children are bonding to us as well. It takes longer the older they are, but you can tell they love coming home. The 4 year old was torn until I assured her it was "awesome" to have 2 mommies and 2 daddies. I think that took a weight off her shoulders.

We did consider stopping our fostering, but the only problem is that kids regress 6 mo-1 year in their development when they move them. They were already delayed when they came & we have worked so hard to try to catch them up. Is all that time going to be for nothing?

It's just easier to say then to do. We love the kids all very much.

I can see wanting the kids to stay; very admirable. However, you haven't discussed the elephant in the room: you not setting boundaries and letting him get away with the PA behavior. You really really need to do some reading and studying on how to deal with him effectively. This is in your hands; once you change your part of the dance, he will be forced to change his or suffer consequences. The Dance of Anger is a good place to start; have you read it?

Oh, I understand now about your foster children... I had an inkling it might be something like that, but was hoping not. I can totally see that the consequences of not taking these children in, are worse than the added stress from taking them in. I pray God to give you the strength to cope with all this.

Cat's right, you need to learn techniques for dealing with P/A ppl. I've read The Dance of Anger and loved it.

I will look into getting the book. I admit, though, as I have stated before that I do resent the fact that this is one more thing that is up to me to accomplish! Where is his responsibility to do right?

Yes, I could not even consider allowing these kids to go into the system and didn't think my aunt would help the situation for them. My husband and I have fostered in the past (thinking we would adopt) so we know the system and its failures well.

Just look at what is going on here:
Bleak Stories Follow a Lawsuit on Oklahoma Foster Care
Oklahoma Foster system in "severe disarray" lawsuit claims

How could I let littles ones fall into that? Now you see why I felt I needed to help them.

I do need help with what boundaries to set, what consequences and how to do this. I'm not sure where to start - help!

First, give him a week to get a job, any job. And keep the job. If he quits it he must get another one within two weeks.

Make him apply for 100 jobs a week and take the first one.

If you cant do this, and stand up to him in this way, then you cant do anything.

I am curious about your husband (the monster in my mind).

Does he not feel a bit bad about:

1. Losing your house
2. Quitting job after job
3. Watching you work two jobs
4. Seeing you get sick and then letting you almost die!
5. sitting on his butt while you work

What kind of man is this anyway! I could not love such a self serving man as this one. I would kick him to the curb.

I struggle with the same things, so I don't have anything useful to say right now. But I am here with you, and listening, and will let you know if I think of something...

Maybe if we can figure out some things to do, we can do them together!

He has a job now. He has been working since the first of December.


Honestly, he "says" he cares about what he does, but I do have a hard time believing it because of the PA behavior of minimizing it and excusing it.

He does take care of the kids when he's home. He lets me get some sleep and he watches them. Then, when he goes to work, I take over. So, I am getting help in that area.

As for working, our entire marriage he has worked most of it. He typically has a job, but just ends up tired of it & moving on to something else.

2008 wasn't typical at all. We got the foster kids while both of us were working. My job got put on hold (I started to lose work) so I asked him to come home & I would work while he helped with the kids (since I made the most money). I was already sick for 3 wks and thought I had recovered (although I was extremely exhausted from whatever the kids brought with them from the shelter). However, right after he left his job to come home, I lost more work due to the economy & some due to slow turn around (because I couldn't work with the kids), then got really sick so I didn't work at all like I expected to. That created a major financial crisis after a year of mismanaging funds on his part. So, I did have a part in him not working for a few months in 2008 and in us not having income. However, if the funds had not been mismanaged for a year AND he hadn't wasted so much time remodeling the house, we would not have had the crisis.

Also, taking on 3 kids didn't help because DHS doesn't pay kinship foster parents until they complete classes (even though the kids are living with you) and with me getting sick, we took a much longer time to complete the classes and still have yet to be paid anything for the kids living with us. So, we have had that financial burden on top of our own. So, our house situation I believe isn't 100% his fault, but he set us up for failure.

As far as the sickness goes, I'm not sure what happened there. I told him to take care of the kids while I rested and that turned into 4 days in bed without eating or drinking.

Yes, most definitely, because I sometimes feel like I'm going to go crazy!