oops.... - Marriage Builders® Forums

[ March 10, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I had drawn boundary that ws cannot be Drunk around me or the kids, now I think I have to say he cannot drink at all aorund us <hr /></blockquote>You drew the boundary, so it is time to show him you meant business!

If you let him cross the line, he will know that he can do it. Be firm! Do this for your kids sake.

If he does not want to go to counseling, say "fine" and YOU go.

Honey,

Were you collecting the kids clothes or were you searching his apartment without his permission?

Honey,

I know my post is going to upset you but someone has to speak up for your children.

Why are you still leaving your children in the care of an alcoholic and drug user? I don’t care if he is the father of your children; he is a danger to them. This is not new, it’s been going on and on for a very long time.

You say that the student is probably a supplier? And you leave your children there?

Please start protecting your children. Maybe drug and alcohol abuse is ok for you. From your continued failure to protect your children it seems that it is. Your children, more than likely, are going to grow up to be like their father… drug and alcohol abusers. Why? Because unless you take steps to show them that the behavior is unacceptable, you are showing them it is all right. In junior high, when their friends are using alcohol and drugs they will be able to justify their own use. After all dad does, and mom thinks it’s ok.

I wish someone would help your children not have to deal with the issues children of alcoholics have to deal with. You think he’s mean to you. What do you think he is like to your children? Was the ski trip really worth it?

Whether or not you wanted the children’s clothes, is not the issue. To go through his house looking for them when he did not give you permission it wrong. It is inappropriate and it escalated the discord that your children witnessed between the two of you. When things get out of hand, it does not matter who said what to whom. It only matters that the two of you cannot get along and it escalated out of control. To end the hostility, all you had to do was leave.

Every time he is under the influence and he is with your children you could call the police. If the police were there they could have assessed if your husband was in a state to take care of the children. It would not be long before he was not allowed unsupervised visitation. When you were at his place and he was getting belligerent, call 911. Would have ended the problem right there.

Honey - you are very stressed today - and I don't blame you - but really did you think leaving them with the kids this time was going to be different - You were trusting him - when maybe you shouldn't yet.. I am going to tell you I think you have the patience of a saint to deal with his crap.. I don't think that you should have rummaged through his house looking for the clothes because it is house - but I can see why you did it... I just read a book that I think would be wonderful you - it is called Codependent No More - by Melody Beattie - Really you will get some great insight - And also I heard through your post that once again you were blaming someone else and not WS - You blamed the druggy sitting on the couch for probably giving WS drugs in exchange for lessons - You cannot blame him - he doesn't matter - It was WS's choice - I am sure that you deserved that time away - as I know we all do at one time - but really imagine what those kids saw in those four days - You know you cannot trust him - so I think you should rethink trying to trust him - he hasn't changed - he is their father and he does deserve to spend time with them but hopefully he will do it when he is sober.... You have every right to be angry and frustrated but is it going to change anything - Isn't it only getting you more upset??? Really try and get that book -

[ March 10, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: maw64 ]

Hi Honey,

I'm so sorry your return was met with such disappointment...

While I don't take the harsh stance the other posters have, they do make a point. His actions were predictable. VERY predictable. Count your blessings that the kids are safe for now. But each time he is left to be a single parent for your children, you roll the dice. Ypour H will crash and burn at some point. It might be today, it might be 40 years from now, but it will happen. It ALWAYS happens to alcoholics who drink.

Perhaps this was the event you needed to take the next step? Perhaps the line in the sand has been drawn in your subconcious and it is just now making its way to your consious. Maybe you should call him on his bluff...file for D?

Only you can answer these things. But, also, only you can protect those kids.

IMHO, I think God wants you to protect those kids first, then take care of Honey second...

I will say a prayer for God to give you courage and wisdom today.

Gib

[ March 10, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]

Gibby,

There are two reasons I take such a strong stance on this.

The first is that since July 2000 I have been dealing with the fallout of three children whose alcoholic mother visited hell upon them. On the surface it did not look even as bad as what Jim does. But what was going on behind closed doors is a nightmare. A nightmare that my step-children, me, my husband and even my son have to live with every day for the rest of our lives.

The danger Honey allows her children to be exposed to is not funny.

The second reason is that there is no way Honey should be surprised by her husbands actions. He's been doing it since long before the day she first signed on to MB.

The topic of her protecting her children has been alive and well since day one. I feel for her kids. They, nor any other child, deserves what they are going through.

Perhaps you think mine is a strong stance. I only wish someone had taken one with my step children a long time ago. Now the damage is done. It's a little bit late.

It seem that our society take a light look at alcohol and drug abuse. Unless of course it's after the damage is done. But as long as our society can, it hides it's head in the sand. Only to pull it out AFTER the damage is one.

Honey,

Not sure I know your whole situation, but a great support group you aught to look into is Alanon. If your not attending, you might want to think about it. Might give you some better ways to cope with your husbands behaviers.

God's stength and much patience to you.

Honey,

You should have taken advantage of that situation and called the police. I think that they would have responded to a call about the conditions of the house where your children were, and the condition of the adult that was entrusted with their care. It was the perfect opportunity to have it documented so that future times with him would be limited and supervised. He is truly a danger to his children. And, your children are like sacrificial lambs. (jmho)

One point that I feel the need to make, you should have NEVER gone skiing in the first place and left them with him. Never. Yes, we all need breaks. Yes, we all need fun time. Your situation is different. You are ultimately responsible for their well being since their Father has no desire or sense enough to do it. Your needs are going to have to come after the safety of the children. They have to. I am afraid that you could have possibly came home and found your children in the care of social services. Are you prepared to have that happen? All it would have taken was a phone call from a concerned (some might think nosey) neighbor and the police would have responded and the rest would have been ugly.

When you returned, you would have been asked questions. You have knowledge of his drinking and drugging and you would have had to tell them so. Yet, you still chose to leave them with him. I do not think that they would have looked kindly upon you either.

As Always, JMHO
committed

Honey, this is a running issue with you. Do you remember a few years ago a woman in the process of divorcing her H allowed him to take their daughters out in his car, although she knew he had been drinking? Remember the accident? The children were killed. AND THE MOTHER WAS JAILED FOR CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

I feel my anonymous nature here is compromised by some of you referring to my wh's real name, please remove that info from your postings now and in the future if you have the heart.

I appreciate the posts but feel the stir- my look for support has awoken,to be inflammatory. of course I know much what you people have sd and more.....

I appreciate the support, but not the cruel and angry nature of some of the posters.

Have a good day. I will be talking to some people in alanon about this... they are more experienced in this arena...

Thanks Gibby, I know you know...
I only post as I know others are in like situations, and I really felt a need for SUPPORT this am.

As always, I do not come here for flaming, but support. I know we are all from different walks, and I will take what I like and leave the rest.

Thanks, H

[

Honey,

~Whew~ I am so glad you were able to save the childrens clothes from such an irresponsible person. I think it's great that you are drawing boundries by not allowing this man to have more than a day or two worth of childrens clothes at a time. Can you imagine what could happen to those clothes should he decide to take them for a ride in his vehicle while intoxicated and/or drugged up? The man simply can't be trusted with them.

It's a good thing that you can replace them, because some things are truely irreplaceable. (hint) (hint) I don't mean the photos of your trip either.

Keep drawing those ever important boundries, Honey...you're doing great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

jmho
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Honey -

sorry...

won't mention names again

post edited...

Gib

Honey - Again I think that you are again taking offense to other peoples opinions because they didn't say what you wanted to hear - I really don't think that anyone meant any harm whether by mentioning your WS name or by saying that they were worried about your children.... You gave us his name - so if I used it I am sorry - I go from not wanting to offending you to maybe saying something that I think will click - but I wonder did you want everyone to say - Oh Honey I am so happy that you went away for the much needed days away ( which I am sure you deserve) but I am so sorry that you had to come home to WS Drunk with a Druggy in the apartment - that just isn't right - he shouldn't have done that ...Do you want everyone to justify your opinion of leaving the kids with him ---?? I just don't get it - I don't think anyone was throwing flames at you...

Honey,
I missed reading your first post.

But you are receiving support.

You are also receiving strong, legal advice.

I can't comment on the situation because I don't know the all details you gave.

But, I do know you can't undo what was done, all you can do now is go on in the best possible way. It sounds like your H made some very bad choices that affected your kids. Make sure it doesn't happen again--however you need to do that.

Lor,

Thanks for your reply.. .sometimes it is all in how it is said... things are said that is. I have approached this subject before here and some just don't get it.

We all make mistakes, easy does it, I like to say.

It is so hard to be in a rough situation and go to a support group, and get more harshness....

Of course I understand what kind of situation I am dealing with - with alcoholism. I have professional counselors working with me and my wh, and will be discussing issues with them shortly.

I do hate that when I post truthfully and from the heart hurtful details of things that have happened to me... I get put downs and snipping comments back. I know some of the harshness was meant with care and I do appreciate that... but some people certainly exaggerate in their postings.

I have legal counsel and certainly don't come here for legal advice. I come here for SUPPORT...

Anyway, sorry that some of you think so poorly of me. I hate to see it, and can't say much more. Keep in mind you do not know the whole story, HOW could you possibly?

The sarcasm and put downs are not what MB is for in my mind.. I doubt Steve Harley would approve of the harsh and unkind nature of some of the posts.

I know some good was meant, unfortunately some of the stinging comments were unkind.

Thanks anyway, H

[ March 10, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]

[

[ March 10, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I only post as I know others are in like situations, and I really felt a need for SUPPORT this am.

As always, I do not come here for flaming, but support. <hr /></blockquote>Honey,

What kind of support would that be? I do not think this forum is a "support" group as much as it is a place to find help and ideas on what to do to better a situation.

You do realize that certain types of "support" can actually be enabling...right?

I think that might be closer to the type of "support" that you are looking for. Is that what Alanon offers? Just support? Or do they kind of give you ideas on what you need to do to have a better life with an alcoholic in it?

I am really confused on exactly what it is you need from the people here.

If you can take a moment to answer, I know that I (for one) would so appreciate it.

committed

Honey,
I've read back through the posts and I don't see cruelty to you, ba109 perhaps is sarcastic, but mostly I see the reality of what could happen to your children in the care of your H .

And, no doubt it is a bummer that you wanted some free time and you realize that your free time can't come at the expense of leaving your H in charge.

Ignoring reality isn't support.

And, sure, we don't know the whole story, shoot, I don't even know what your posts said but it sounds bad. And I've read Zorwebs daughter's posts "Little Z" and know that Zorweb was also leaving out many details of how bad it got for her step children...and the reprecussions that go on and on.

You are the first line of protection for your kids, you can't count on your H. And now you know it for sure.

It doesn't matter if your H is nice sometimes, and writes and sings songs for you, he's a danger alone with your children and that is your first priority while he is choosing this lifestyle.

What can I/we do to support you in the decisions looming for you?

Honey, I'm one of the cruel posters.... because I've been there and done that.... I'm the ex-wife of an alcoholic. I feel an immense urgency to somehow reach through to you, before the tragedy that's hanging over your head crashes onto it. So maybe I do try grab you by the shoulders and shake you.

Please Honey, DO go and talk with the experienced counsellors at Alanon. Tell them truthfully just how much your H drinks and drugs. Tell them about the state of the house. Then ask them to advise you about leaving the children with their father for several days at a time.

Looking at this whole thing, there was more than one way to skin this cat; you could have left the children with your parents, or a sister, or somebody else who is trustworthy. You could have timed your trip for the same period as your kids will be away with their grandparents. However, what is done is done, and very fortunately your kids haven't come to any visible harm this time.

Honey, one diagnostic characteristic of the alcoholic relationship - and you are half of that relationship even if your lips never touch anything stronger than coffee - is the desperate desire to cover up, to make it look like everything's okay, to deny the reality. Is this what you were doing here? Going off for a much-needed break while Dad takes care of the kids? It all looks so hunkydory and normal???

Please please talk to the Alanon counsellors.

Just some info on Alanon. Here is a link to the

Alanon web page http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

Seems to be some confusion on what Alanon is or is not about. It is not about counciling and it is not about going somewhere to get advice. It is about a group of people that get together to share what has worked or has not worked in their own lifes in dealing with the impacts of alcholism on their lifes and to learn how to overcome these impacts. It is not about changeing the alcoholic, it is about changing the family or friend of the alcholic. With out this type of support, often times people keep making the same mistakes over and over again. If you want to get off the merry go round of alcholism, you need to find a way to do that and Alanon can show you the way if you let it.

Not a lot of sense of trying to make sense of what has happened, but there is some sense in trying to make some changes.

My thoughts for what they are worth.

Tom,

These 2 comments seem contradictory... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> and it is not about going somewhere to get advice. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is about a group of people that get together to share what has worked or has not worked in their own lifes in dealing with the impacts of alcholism on their lifes <hr /></blockquote>Isn't it indirectly an "advice" getting place. Afterall, don't these people listen to what has worked for others and in turn "try" it? Why tell others what has worked for you unless you hope to extend some possible "advice" to someone else in the same sinking ship?

committed

Lor

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've read back through the posts and I don't see cruelty to you, ba109 perhaps is sarcastic <hr /></blockquote>The reason for the sarcasm was that Honey's original post showed little to no concern over the childrens well being and the environment that they were subjected to for four days while she was away. She came home to find her kids with a drunk and possibly drugged H and a "druggy" student friend. The place was a shambles and her main concern appeared to be that of the childrens clothes and the photos of her trip that were in the camera.

She vowed to set stricter boundries such as only allow H to have 1 or 2 days worth of the kids clothes...ones that she wouldn't miss.

Honey never gets the big picture. Her kids are in a life threatening situation with her H. I'll be damned if I'll offer support for someone who willingly and knowingly places their kids in such a situation on a continuous basis and refuses to take steps to change it.

She left the kids with him for 4 days!! He cannot avoid alcohol for 1 DAY let alone 4. She did this knowingly and willingly and then expects to drum up support (or more likely a pity party) when she comes home to find him drunk.

But the worst part is that her last concern always seems to be the kids. In this case it was :

1 He's drunk again.
2 Where are my childrens clothes. I must vow not to leave so many clothes with him.
3 I hope he doesn't trash my snapshots of the trip.

Nowhere did I see the first concern for her children safety and well being, hence the sarcasm.

jmho
tagging off
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ March 10, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

Ba, I shouldn't have singled you out in a thread I'm 2 steps behind.
Peace?

Lor,

I didn't feel that you singled me out. I just wanted to clarify my first post because Honey deleted the original post.

Without seeing the original post you can't possibly see where I was coming from.

Peace <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ March 10, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

Honey - I am going to agree with Lor - I don't think that anyone is being mean to you...Really -I truly believe that these people on this forum care about you and your children - and I don't think that in all good conciousness they can sit there and tell you I am sorry that your WS got drunk while taking care of the kids I hope it never happens again... When in all actuality it can and will happen again until he makes the changes that need to be made - He needs to face up to the fact that he is an alcholic and until he does that I don't think you can leave the children unsupervised with him for any extended period of time.... I mean you have to face the fact that though he is their Dad right now he is not responsible... And I think that most people that have lived with alcholics on this site try to give you legitimate advice because they have walked in your shoes... We can support you all you need to be supported but when we think that you are not handling the situation correctly or making excuses for your WS - then we cannot support what you are doin....

Committed,

I personnally think there is a big difference between giving someone advice and simply sharing what has or has not worked in my life. The end result or desire may be the same, namely the desire to get the other person to change their behaviour, but I know for me, it is much easier for me to listen to someone that it is simply sharing with me what has or has not worked for them then it is for someone to come out and tell me what I should or should not do. The sharing tactic comes across as someone who cares about me and trusts that I have the capability to make decisions in my life, the giving advice tact comes across as someone who thinks they know better or smarter then me and knows more about what it is I should do, then I do. I have a much easier time listening to someones story and deciding what in it I can use then I do having someone tell me what I should or shouldn't do. Often times when folks come out and just give me advice, it also seems they really don't know all there is to know about my situation, and often times really don't seem to care. They know the answer and even if my circumstances are different then theirs, they still have the answer. For me sharing my story isn't always about trying to give someone else advice. More often then not sharing my story is simply about enjoying someone else listening to my story. It feels good to be listened to. If someone gets something out of it, then it makes it that much more enjoyable. If not, that ok too.

Anyway, there is probably more history here then I am aware of, but sometimes it helps to try a different tact in how it is we try to help people. I see a lot of people giving Honey advice here and see her getting kind of defensive about it and I can understand why. It might make more sense if folks would share what it is they have done in similar situations that have helped them or share with her how they have done similar things to what Honey has done and why it didn't work for them. Much easier to take then being told you are wrong. Seems like she tried to do the best she could, maybe she made a mistake and hopefully she will learn from it. Lord knows I have made mistakes and gotten lots of advice, and most of it I don't take. Much easier to see it from a different perspective.

I don't know Honey's situation or what her husband is like, but one thing I do know is that just because someone is an alcoholic or an addict, does not mean they are terrible people. It doesn't mean they will beat or harm there kids. Is it the best choice in child care? Probably not, but his is still the kids parent, and he still shares some responsibility in raising the kids. My guess is that Honey's husband does love his kids, but he also love's his addictions. We all have our addictions, the hard part is admitting them.

Anyway, my two cents for what it is worth.

[ March 10, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Tom ]

I think this quote near sums up Alanon , well at least for me.

God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change
Courage to change the things I can
And Wisdom to know the difference.

Hello again,

Tom I applaud you. Thanks for seeing that people do not like to be talked down to, or told how stupid or wrong they are....

There is a lot of reading btwn the lines going on - on the posts.... above. One being that I left the kids with ws for childcare.... WHAT????? We have a custody order for the kids to be with him every other weekend and many holidays..... so this last weekend was his... kids did stay a bit of additional time, but this was discussed and was at ws desire to spend more time with kids... I did not off on and go on a trip and dump my kids with an irresponsible alcoholic... HELLO? Some of you must think I need brain surgery by the way you talk down to me.

THOSe that criticize and KNOW what is RIGHT and what is WRONG... ie, maw and committed and ba..... please now no offense... but seriously... YOu don't know the whole story.... I vented on a bad evening which was partly my fault. My children were not in danger in fact, I was picking them up and ws was not drinking and driving, to my knowledge, he does not do this, esp. with the kids. He is a caring dad, despite the fact that he is a problem drinker at times.

I see all of your points... and I know much of what you post before you post it. Most of us are our own worst critics, right?

I hate the harsh judgements I get here. As TOM sd, sharing from personal experience, or saying this is what I have seen, or in my humble opinion... is so different... than YOU SHOULD, YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE BAD, etc....

I hate that people seem to band together and attack me. I see that many who post in this manner against alcoholic issues are divorced or in some form or another angry at an alcoholic in their lives, could it be bitterness?

I am very involved in alanon. I know better support and understanding is there... and NO, they do not tell you what to do there. I don't think we should be telling each other what to do here either.

In my humble opinion, criticism makes people run away, in fact , my own criticism of my ws last nite was a mistake. I should of just been polite and left... that was the best answer, not to criticize what he was doing or who he was with... etc.
I can't control him.

I do protect my children and I am a very good mother. I hate to see people judge one another. I do think the bible may reccomend not judging.

God is my father and guide, and he can be the one to decide what I do as right or wrong not man.

Criticism doesn't help anyone, it is certainly a lb. If some of you criticize your spouses the way you criticize me here, I can see where there might be issues... better than approaches and one upman ship just doesn't work, people do not respond.

I came here for support. No I did not respond the best way I could last night. OK, my definition of support in a round about way... listening, friendship, perhaps sharing from the heart what worked for you, but not telling me what to do or what I am doing wrong,,... is that friendship? Not in my book.... no, a friend listens... and cares... symphatetically even when one makes mistakes in my book.

The critical nature of some of you stings.. and the self righteousness. I am sorry to say this, and have tried saying it before... some of you may not have the time or patience or even concern to save a marriage like mine... No problem, nor have you known my spouse for the 18 yrs I have.

Lor, I like you a bunch, but really the comment about the love songs stunk... that was a little below the belt... do you really think that is whY I want my marriage? I think with patience and love and commitment my marriage can and will be saved... I know my h, and I love him... what is so wrong with that? God can work miracles of all kinds, and I do believe that .... I can do my best to help things get better.

My h is flawed, as are all of us... here on this fallen Earth. I hate that some of you take the better than you approach... sad.

I saw a few kind comments and I appreciate those... but all in all, maybe some of you will learn that criticism doesn't build friendships.. and I do come here for that... I doubt a few words on a message board on the internet... where I was looking for support will -enable- me to harm my precious children .... I sure do hate the judgemental tones....

I am sorry that once again I got lack of support where I just wanted a friend.... reaching out here doesn't always work when others feel the need to condemn.

Support to me is a kind ear, a friendly thought, an I care about you kind of thing... maybe even we know you are doing the best you can and that you do care for your children and are working hard to make things better each day... as I truly am.

I hate that some of you who do not know me, judge me so harshly, I do think if you met me in person, as some locals might witness I am not the evil dangerous mother you might imagine.

I posted that I was in pain and hurting over the evening, I did not need to be knocked down more by people here.. and told how wrong I was... blah blah blah..... I appreciate the posts and trying to help if that is what some of it was... sorry most of it did not help..... I already know the safety and dangers of being married to and coparenting with an alcoholic, probably better than many of you.... Again, I am only human and I can't be perfect, I am sorry a kind word or two was too much to desire.

Thanks again, Honey

[ March 10, 2003, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]

Honey,

You were quite clear as to what you found when you returned to pick up your children. You posted it in detail. Your details were not a vent (unless you exaggerated or lied). EVERYONE who saw your first posts saw it. You conveniently removed it so that no one else would see the things that the rest of us did, and so that you could go off and play the victim. Our responses to you were based on your first post and it was outrageous the stance that you took. But, to become the victim of some preconceived attacks (which are actually hard truths), you remove your post so that the posters look as though they are attacking you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

You are NOT the victim. Your CHILDREN are the victims in all this. You are choosing to be in that situation....your children aren't. You now want to close your eyes and say it wasn't quite that bad or "you don't know the whole story". I have a feeling if we knew the "whole" story, we would be appalled.

You stay constantly in a defensive state. You have to defend yourself against your alcoholic husband and you project it here when people respond to your posts. No, I am not embittered by the alcoholic people in my life. You know why? Cause I CHOSE to remove them from mine and my INNOCENT children's life. I have a Paralegal degree and I am an advocate for children so I know what I am talking about. I am not acting on bitterness, I have NO bitterness. I knew what I needed to do. But, some people just never get it. Some people choose to live with the alcoholic in their life, but their children never get a choice.

Yes, it might have been his weekend, but you left them for 4 days...and when you returned you found your WS drunk, drugged out, with someone whom you said was a druggie (in your first post that you removed) and you went on and on about the clothes you could not find, how he might destroy your photos of your trip, and how he accused you of rape because you went through his house and his belongings. It was all about YOU. You say now that you were in pain and hurting over that evening. Because YOU were hurt you posted.

You know what word you originally used in the title of your post? "Unpleasantries"!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> What about the word "Atrocities"? What about "Outrageous"? It was so much more than simply "unpleasant". What about the children? What were they exposed to in those 4 days? What if one of them had found one of the drugs and ingested it. And, don't tell me that they KNOW not to do that. They should NEVER be exposed to it in the first place. They are literally on their own when they are with him. You know that.

Again, it is very convenient for you now that you have erased your first post. You make some type of remark about your anonymity, YOU shared his name with everyone, his pictures, your photo and the children. You had all those removed earlier because you felt threatened by the people here?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> The threats to you and your precious children lie within your WS, not the people here. All the rest of us look like we have jumped to some type of crazy conclusions and you KNOW that we haven't. YOU posted it and then you erased it.

IMHO
committed

[ March 11, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]

Honey,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The sarcasm and put downs are not what MB is for in my mind.. I doubt Steve Harley would approve of the harsh and unkind nature of some of the posts.
<hr /></blockquote>I think that this site is not so much for support as it is for genuine and honest comments on how to improve your marriage. With that, you are going to receive positive AND negative comments or suggestions.

Alanon is the place to go if you are simply looking for support for better dealing with the situation that you have chosen to live in and subject your children to.

That is not the type of support you will receive here at this site.

Here are some of Harleys thoughts on alcohol and drug addiction within the marriage.

One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.

So, if you continue to post your "venting" threads you will most likely continue to receive a 2x4 over the head by many a poster who are trying to get you to CORRECT your situation not accept and live with it.

jmho
tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ March 11, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]

Honey - I don't appreciate you always accuse me of being mean - I really don't think that I say anything that bad - but you know what - I guess I will be done with reading and replying to your posts because - I don't want to listen to you whine anymore - You are right you choose to want to have a life with an alcholic and therefore you must suck it up and deal with it - Even if sometimes it isn't to your liking - I didn't know that you got a court ordered custody agreement - I thought you were afraid to do that...Like many of the posters say here "YOU" choose to want to be with an alcholic but do your children get any choices - ???? I am sure you are implying that I am bitter because I am divorced but you know what I am not - I will be ok - and my children will be ok - because I was strong enough to not put them through any more unnecessary hell - trying to get their father to see the error of his ways... Now I also find it amusing that it seems that everytime you post their is one person who will stick up for you then you go and say that everyone else is a big meany.... Now I honestly think that everyone is entitled to their own opinions - But I would think that you would be able to see that everytime you post everyone is like freaked but what you have written and you accuse everyone of "Flaming You" - that maybe you should realize that hey maybe they all see something that I don't... You need to realize that is isn't about you - it is about your children - about how they are gonna be when they grow up??? Stop and look what happened to your husband - most of the time you blame his father... I wish you will and like I have said before you have the patience of a saint.. But in the long run is it goin got be worth it for your childrens well being?? I mean if all they are exposed to is trauma and drama and drugs and drinking - and a very upset mother??? Think about that....

No one here is judging anyone as being either ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But we do know that ALL alcoholics and drug abusers suffer from impaired judgment while on their chosen substance, which is most of the time. They are ALL dangerous when they drive their children around. ALL drug abusers are breaking the law. And dealing in drugs with a minor (the teen) is a felony. What is ok about all of this? What is ok about teaching a child that using and dealing in drugs is ok?

Honey you are right. We do not know the whole story but only what you choose to tell us. Would you share with us the details we don’t know that make it all right for children to be cared for by anyone who is intoxicated? And the detail that makes it ok for him to drive them around in that state? (You have told us in the past that he drives them when intoxicated. Then you recanted it when we brought up the danger of this.)

Have you done any counseling with Steve Harley? I wish you would and that you would tell him your and your children’s situation and of your husband’s addictions. I know that in his books, Dr. Harley states very clearly that a marriage cannot be repaired as long as there is an abuse or an addiction problem. I’d bet my bottom dollar that he’s say the same about a family as a whole.

There was little sarcasm toward you. What people posted, myself included, is their true reaction to what is going on in your life and how you are handling it. Many of us have been here with you for a long time. We care about you. But nothing we say gets through. You know, if this was one of the first few times you’d brought these issues here and someone come on strong to you it would be out of hand. But after all this time we just don’t know how to get through to you. And believe me, most of us know of what we speak. We’ve lived through it.

I know it’s hard to take people just ‘preaching’. But it’s also hard to see someone put their children at risk over and over. As I recall this same thing has been told to you over and over here in every way anyone can think of saying it. You just do not accept it. I’d sing it to you in a love song if I thought it would make you see the light.

Most of us who have been here for anytime know you have a custody arrangement. There are ways to get the court to see that there is a problem and limit him to have only supervised visitation. There are ways to get the police to help you protect your children. We have shared with you many things we have done to protect our children from abusive/alcoholic/addicted parents. I have shared with you several times about my husband’s situation. He was able to get court imposed supervised visitation for his then wife. He now has custody of the children. And now we are in court to have all of her parental rights severed. There are two major reasons for this… the harm she allowed and perpetrated on her children when she was under the influence of drugs and alcohol. The second is that she continues, even this last Christmas, to leave her daughter in the care of an alcoholic, drug addict, drug dealing sister. (We are also bringing charges against the older sister.)

This is not about take away a person’s parental rights. It’s about protecting the children until the parent with a problem gets help…. If they ever get it. We cannot force them to get the help they need. We can only protect the children until they are old enough to make their own choices.

I know of no circumstance whatsoever that makes it all right to leave a child with a person who is drunk and on drugs. All you’d have to do is call the police and have them evaluate the situation. You’d not be in violation of a court order if you did that and then kept the children with you. But you do not want to do it. You apparently feel it’s ok to leave your children in a dangerous situation.

I apologize if I misunderstood you in the past when you told us your husband drove your children when he was intoxicated. I guess he does not. As I recall your deleted post also told us that you thought that your husband may have be on other drugs that night. And he had a teen guest in the house who you believe is dealing drugs…. Trading drugs for guitar lessons. I guess I misunderstood that your husband was abusing drugs and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

It is very easy to discount what people say by putting them in a class and saying they are bitter. Maybe, just maybe, these people have learned something in all they have been through????? Maybe, just maybe they have a clue????

Honey, please let it in. Please.

For most things I agree we should not tell each other what to do. Anything I say is a suggestion, no matter how strongly stated. But.. and there is a but. A lot of what people have done is not tell you what to do, but their assessment of the situation. They are afraid your kids are going to get physically hurt. They are being hurt emotionally. You know the affects on children of having an alcoholic parent. I, like many, have very strong feelings about this. I am telling you what I would do. If my son was the teen at your husband’s house and I found out what was going on, I would call the police and have him arrested for contributing to the delinquency of my child. I would not hesitate. And if your children were there when the police arrived, they would have been taken into protective custody. In order to get your children back you would have to explain to protective services why you allowed your children to be there.

Constructive criticism can help a person who pays attention to it. No one here is

You are right. I do not have the patience to save a marriage like yours. Not anymore… tried that a long time ago. What I learned is what Dr. Harley says.. until the addiction is addressed there is no hope for the marriage. I do not see enabling, as an excuse for marriage building, to be a good thing. Not all marriages are worth saving. Sometimes we have to save ourselves.

I found out something about friends a long time ago. A true friend will give me hell when I need it. They will push me to do the right thing. Sure I hate it and b!tch but I know they have my best interest in mind. I have learned that friends who always agree and give me the brand of support you want, no matter the situation, are not friends at all. They simply do not care enough about me to help me be the best person I can be. I have no use for them.

[ March 11, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

Honey, why did you delete your posts?

I've walked in your shoes Honey. I so badly wanted "my life back" when h began drinking. I went into denial, minimized the impact of what he was doing, and accused those who were trying to help me of being cruel and not truly understanding. You're in denial Honey.

I never left our daughter in his care and can't count the number of times we spent the night in a motel. I made sure I was always available to her. Never did I want her to feel abandoned and her only parent was an irresponsible, slobbering drunk. I can't imagine what fear that would evoke in a child.

Children often take circumstances and exaggerate them because of their lack of understanding. My daughter feared that he would kill us while he was drunk. Now that we're past the situation and she has matured into a teenager, she told me that she prayed every night that God would take her to heaven. She so wanted to escape. At the time, she wasn't able to express to me her fear and misery.

If you saw someone running into a street and you pulled them back before they were hit by a truck, wouldn't you be frustrated if they accused you of inteferring with their life? These people here aren't out to make your life more difficult. These people care about you and see that big truck coming toward you. Honey, I've read the posts here and don't see anyone being cruel. Quite the contrary, they want to help you and have a love for your children.

Honey it's time to face the fact that you're not going to get your life back anytime soon or if ever. You can certainly and should have faith in God to restore your family, but at the same time, you should be wise in seeing to the care of your children.

Honey, your husband is very sick. It's not his father's responsibility, it's his. You're so focused on him that you're unable to see the big picture. You need to speak to your attorney about this situation and putting limits on his time with his sons. He should not be with them unsupervised.

You're getting very wise advice here and I think to ignore or dismiss it would be a mistake. A wise person said to me once, "You can't rake leaves in the desert."

I'm willing to share with you, Honey. What did I do during my 17 years with an alcoholic? And no, this is not out of bitterness. You accuse those of us who TELL you of our experience with alcoholics of being bitter and projecting onto you. This is my experience. This is what I did. This is what did NOT work.

I made excuses for him all the time.
I blamed other people for his addiction and behaviour, especially his alcoholic, tomcatting father.
I tried to separate him from his drinking buddies.
I allowed him to yell at me, swear at me, and throw things across the room.
I picked up the pieces time and again. Literally as well as metaphorically. I'd pick up the broken china, mop the floor, sew the buttons back onto his shirt, mend the rips.
I kept us afloat financially by madly juggling, selling our farm, denying myself even the smallest indulgences and even some outright necessities (like thyroid medication) while he drank, gambled and whored around.
I allowed him to run me down to our children and encourage them to talk down to me and set up "tribunals" in which they brought their grievances against me.
I apologised.
I took the blame.
I fixed things when he was fired.
I fixed things when he was drunk and crashed the car.
I outright lied to concerned people, including my doctor, when asked about the abuse.
I denied that anything was wrong.
I believed that he loved his children and would never harm them.

What were the results?
He was enabled.
He continued drinking; it was all my fault, so of course he didn't need help.
He severely damaged the children's faith in me.
He now has cirrhosis of the liver and throat cancer.
He actively encouraged both children to drink and smoke, by taking them out and giving them alcohol behind my back, buying them cigarettes, and calling me a "religious fanatic idiotic fool" for disapproving of 15 and 13 year olds being supplied by their FATHER, and taught to disrespect the law.

Effects on me:
Post-traumatic stress disorder.
Clinical depression.
Hysterectomy due to the sexual abuse inflicted on me.
Lifelong health problems.

Effects on children:
20 year old son currently serving 24 year jail sentence for armed robbery with aggravating circumstances. Has 21 years to go.
Son alcoholic, drug addict, clean, in recovery program.
Daughter, now 22, chronically depressed.
Daughter just broken off engagement to drinking tomcat.

So yes, I am talking to you from my direct experience. Call it cruel if you want to. The Bible also says that if you see your brother, or sister, getting involved in something that could lead to the death of their soul (exact words: sin that leads to death), and do not warn him or her, his or her blood is upon your hands.

Honey, wouldn't it kill your soul if one or both of your sons were to be killed, maimed, or sexually molested while in your H's socalled "care"? I clearly recall occasions on which you complained that your H drove the kids while intoxicated.

Also, if it's all your FIL's fault that your H is an alcoholic and sexually amoral, you're already admitting that role models have a powerful influence. What kind of role model is your H? What kind of example is he setting? And what kind of women will your sons choose when they're old enough?

Nuff said. Honey, I wish with all my heart that somebody had cared enough to tell me the truth in the beginning, when there was still time. I didn't even realise that my XH is an alcoholic till just a couple of years before I divorced him, and then only because I was told outright by a psychiatrist.

Honey,
Judging a situation is not the same as judging a person.

I said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />It doesn't matter if your H is nice sometimes, and writes and sings songs for you, he's a danger alone with your children and that is your first priority while he is choosing this lifestyle. <hr /></blockquote>You answered:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lor, I like you a bunch, but really the comment about the love songs stunk... that was a little below the belt... do you really think that is whY I want my marriage? I think with patience and love and commitment my marriage can and will be saved... I know my h, and I love him... what is so wrong with that? God can work miracles of all kinds, and I do believe that .... I can do my best to help things get better. <hr /></blockquote>My bringing up the songs your H wrote for you wasn't intended to be a blow, it is the most generous, loving thing I can recall him doing. (You've likely posted more, but the songs are the ones sweet enough to stick in my mind--no sarcasm AT ALL.)

I don't care WHY you want your marriage, you do want it, and that's not a problem for me. But, yeah, I'm questioning your priorities, (marriage vs H's drinking vs kids in an unhealthy environment) now that this incident has happened.

I admit I'm flawed, but I'm listening to you, I try to remember your goals, I care about you, I do think you intend to do the best you can. But, like in the military, sometimes you have to have an "after action report" to figure out what was good, what went wrong, and how to increase the good and fix the wrong.

I'm not likely to change the way I post when I react to problems I see, because it is me, it my experience and knowledge, the positives and strengths, but including some lessons learned from huge personal wrongdoings--which if ongoing or new, anyone is free to point that out to me, or question, or call me on it, like you did.

I guess we differ in our reasons for posting at MB.

You say:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I already know the safety and dangers of being married to and coparenting with an alcoholic, probably better than many of you <hr /></blockquote>Ok, true enough. What I think a lot of us would like to see is what your plan for handling those dangers. Not getting mad at us for the fact we can see the dangers in your posts and question if you are dealing with it realistically.

If you present a bad situation, you're going to get advice and discussion, including some of it as ecletic as some of us are.

Otherwise your whole thread would be

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Honey}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Honey,

I'm about to pour out my heart to you, so please treat it tenderly as you would your own children's hearts.

Honey, the most frightening thing my mother had to face was the day I gave her my truth as her child - that she left me in the care of a drunk who had just beaten her up - and how frightened I was that I was going to be next. And she finally realized that her husband have every capacity to damage and harm her children, even though they were also HIS children. As an addict under the influence, he had no capacity to give a da#m! She had excused his every abuse of his children that he had perpetrated right in front of her in the name of discipline.

She couldn't see it at the time it was happening, but to this child and her four brothers and sisters, it was still the reality she left us to deal with. Had she left, really left, and drawn a firm boundary that my dad had to be clean and sober for a good long time, and work toward healing the wounds in his marriage before she would have come home, I firmly believe Dad would have quit drinking long before he did, at least ten years after I left home. Instead, he was always assured that she would be back for more abuse, because she left her children there, while he was drunk to the core.

I'm sorry that the cycle continues for you. I want to validate your desire to observe a father's right to his children in a pre-custody situation (you're not divorced, right?)

I also sense your frustration at not being understood. You know your husband, and we do not. You know the good stuff. We do not. We only know of him what you have shared.

Honey, here's what you do not know that I can see, and others here also see, who have followed your story, prayed for you, cried for you and cried with you.

I see a woman who is addicted to an addict. It's an addiction to the status quo, because being with him - his drama, his crises, etc. is at least predictable and familiar. Very much like you see your husband, I see a woman who has no idea how capable, talented, and attractive she might be, if she stepped off the status quo (or for husband, out of his addiction), once and for all, never to look back at that deep dark hole where life took her for a ride. You live in that hope, that some day he'll come to, and step into that scary place called the "Unknown", clean and sober. I live in that hope also, that Honey will step into that space of "Change", allowing for boundaries to draw safe conditions for herself and her children.

Honey, boundaries are going to be the only saving grace you can draw on to protect your children. Calling the police that night would have at least moved one addict away from your children - one who didn't belong there; and it would have created a protection legally for your children to not have to be in the unsupervised care of an addict under the influence. You can still make the call and have DCFS review the situation so that there is at least a paper trail. Because there can be no lasting marital recovery until the sobriety is a lock. Anything else is clinging to the status quo, blinded by hope that has no evidence to support it's existence.

If you want to see how blind someone can be to danger and abuse, and see the litany of excuses a woman can make for an addict or an abuser, please check out http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=014798 - I don't know if you will notice the similarities between Toni's defense of her husband, and your defense of your husband. But I can - I can see that you are so close to the situation, that you can't recognize what your many many friends here are trying to tell you. This isn't healthy for you. And above all, it's not healthy for your children! Speaking as a daughter of an alcoholic, I can now tell you as an adult, it isn't healthy. And you are the most sober one in the situation with any power to do something about it. So you're getting a lot of strong responses to your situation.

KaylaAndy - I just wanted to say that was beautiful and I hope she hears what it is you and everyone else is trying to tell her - without taking offense...

Honey,

I don't recall if I've ever posted to you before or not, but I thought I'd share my story with you. No advice, no opinions....just a story.

My ex H started doing drugs when he was 10. An older cousin thought it was cute to get a 10 yr old high. He then started drinking at the age of 12. I met him when he was 18 and already an alcoholic. Against my better judgement, I started dating him and married him when I was 20. He'd already had his first DUI at the age of 21. I spent 3 years being his chaffeur since he didn't have a license. During those 3 years, we had 2 sons. My duty consisted of dragging my children out at 5 in the morning to take their father to work and then dragging them out again to pick him up. Of course, he didn't work year round. Only about 6 months out of the year. Another duty was to drag my children out in the middle of the night to pick him up after hours of drinking. If I didn't do it, I suffered and so did the kids. He eventually got his license back and I spent almost every night wondering whether he was going to make it home or not. My father told me to just not let him have the keys to the car. I tried this and I just ended up with countless bruises all over me. We eventually had a 3rd son. Yes, my husband was an alcoholic, drug addict and a wife-beater. He would beat me when he was sober and when he wasn't sober. He did it in front of my kids too. My children saw their mother with one side of her face beaten and bruised so bad that she was barely recognizable. He threw things at me and even threatened to kill me. But I stayed.

My sons are now 13, 10 1/2 and 6. My ex finally decided to leave us in Dec 1999. 2 days before Christmas. My youngest, thank God, doesn't remember anything about him living here. My middle one suffers from ADHD and has problems with aggression and in school. My oldest son is the worst. He is very aggressive towards me and his brothers. To him, I'm stupid for staying with his father and I deserved what I got. He constantly tells me that it's my fault that he doesn't have a father. It's also my fault that he acts the way he does. (Yes, he tried to hit me one time and I had to have my new H intervene. You see my 13 yr old is 6' tall and weighs 165 pounds...he's a lot bigger than I am) I had to put him in couseling for his anger. My biggest fear is that he will grow up to be like his father. I can see it in him already.

I covered for my ex all the time. I made excuses for him and pretended that things weren't that bad. Now I know that they were horrible, especially for my children. I also blamed my ex's father because he was the same way. Now I know that as an adult, my ex has the power to change, but he doesn't want to. He enjoys his lifestyle.

Now, my children don't see their father. That is his choice. He doesn't want them. They interfere with his new life too much. They don't want to see him right now and honestly, I'm glad. I don't want my children around that kind of person right now. I'm working hard to undo all of the damage done to them.

Please read this carefully and think about it long and hard.

Good luck to you,
Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

mlmcgreevy@hotmail.com

For right now, I am still too stressed to reply individually. I did address Lor last nite, b/c I guess the love song comment made me feel like there is just so much more to my marriage than this.....

I don't want to jump to ws defense.. but my counselors' did advise I draw clear boundaries as I have been doing and approach him with love.

What gets me is that you people don't see that I have done that and continue to do it, albeit slower than some of you would.... I am a little hurt and injured by the 2x4 that has been hitting me over the head here... as I have sd before that is not why I come here....

I am tired right now, and I do think my first post did address the need for some support of me, and so did the last.. that is whY i posted.. honestly... I would appreciate a bit more understanding and caring than being hit over the head....

Some of you have been kind, some of you mean well, some of you even mean well while you hurt.... That is ok, I am sure I am more sensitive than most... in some ways, others not.

I am tired, tired and tired.

I appreciate all the thoughts and apologize I cannot adress them one by one now, perhaps later.

I know I put up with too much from ws.
I know he has a drinking problem.
I do not always trust his judgement.
At times he is a wonderful times, at times not.
I love who he used to be... my marriage has not always been bad - we were happy, happy , happy.

I hate what my family and my life have been hurt by his choices and my choice to try to work it out... now don't attack me.... IT is HARD to try to save a marriage, esp with an alcoholic... OK?

Anyway, I can't say much more now. I appreciate those of you sharing from personal experience... I like that take... the this is what happened to me, you do what you choose.... not the shaking fingers.... I just can't take it.... too much stress.

Thanks to everyone, I will try to reread what I can, but I can't let myself get too bogged down in the stuff that brings me down... too much of that lately.

Thanks for the posts, H