Recovery vs. Divorce, its my decision. - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

My WW and I are at a crossroad, which she is leaving me the decision of what to do. Accept her back as she is or move on to divorce.

For those of you who don't know our history, this is going to be more confusing for you to respond to than those who are aged well on H2Y and WW.

My WW has come to a point in her life where she either wants to restore our marriage or move on with her life, and divorce. Its for real this time... isn't it?

I have heard this many times before, as you most know, as we all do, but this time I'm different. Where as before if we 'talked' about restoration or tried a short-lived restoration beginning, the fog would eventually role in or the lies and contact with the OM would show itself again.

I understand that recovery or the attempt thereof is NOT about ultimatums, but that is where I feel my MB Recovery has to go for success.

It’s been 4 years and 3 months since the affair began and I don't feel like at this point in my life that I should have to tolerate much.

When WW asked me recently what I wanted to do about 'us':
1. I told her that I want my marriage to work.

2. That I wanted her to move back here to Houston and begin recovery.

3. That I wanted all contact with OM to cease.

4. That I would not tolerate OM knowing where we live.

5. That I would not tolerate OM moving here.

6. That I would not tolerate OM seeing OC.

7. That I wanted WW to pursue me.

8. That my needs: attention, sexual fulfillment, recreational companion, honesty and openness need to be fulfilled quickly rather than taking months.

9. That I want her and I to begin counseling.

Things I didn't tell her as of yet, (conversation ran short), but will need to discuss with her at some point in time before 'we' make a final decision on either recovery or divorce.

1. That I'm very concerned with her moving home at this point. Counseling needs to begin, she needs to become an active member of MB, posting here and helping herself learn what I have learned here.

2. That my feelings for her have nearly all but vanished. I've slowly fallen out of love with her and I don't know my what my feelings of love are for her. I believe I still do, but if I do, it’s very little. Very, very little.

3. That my attraction for her as a person inwardly (her soul, being) has been shattered over the last four years, and I was loving her based on the shell of herself (physical appearance) and what little of her 'old self' remained inside her.

4. That now she has cut, colored, her hair and gained weight, (she says she looks horrible) and I haven't seen her in several months, that I am not even going to be attracted to her. I know that this sounds so shallow, but this is what it has come to. I REALLY don't know who she is on the inside anymore, and now that she tells me her appearance has dwindled, I'm afraid that I won't be attracted to her at all anymore. I could be VERY wrong with my feelings of attraction, but to say the least, I want to at least be honest with myself. I have surrounded myself with ‘beautiful’ people, inwardly and outwardly, and my friends have become my need for an attractive spouse.

5. That I really want to be selfish and let her pursue and chase me if she wants 'us'. I have been on perpetual hold for 4 years now. I don't want to be the giver, as the taker in me hasn't had any pleasures or fulfillment of my relationship needs.

6. I truly wonder if we will survive recovery, without more pain and damage to the boys.

7. I enjoy short periods of time away from the boys now, going out with friends, the movies and lunch and dinners with people/friends from work. I enjoy a cup of coffee and an occasional beer at poolside/pub with friends who are both female and male. My recreational companion has become a group of friends.

8. I have male friends and female friends who call/come over and have become the source of my survival of the affair. I do not want to lose what I have HAD to discover on my own. My friends have become my need for conversation, acceptance.

9. My family has become my need for affection. My younger brother and I go out from time to time to have a beverage or two. His companionship has been awesome.

10. Our boys. Our boys have become my best of friends. They are the source of my continued existence and persistence to succeed and be happy. Not her.

She wants to relocate out of state and I do not. To ‘hide’ from the OM. I have begun my life and made a better me and I am trying very hard to focus only on our boys and myself. I am not going to move the boys another time for the 'marriage'. I don't want to relinquish my freedoms HER leaving has caused me to find, UNLESS SHE CAN FULFILL THE EMPTINESS that caused me to find these freedoms, friends and family, rewarding and fulfilling, to begin with. I have become a bachelor of sorts. More the single parent without any partner... and I'm not sure what is best for the boys at this point in time.

I have 5 friends who are male. 4 single/dating and 1 married who I enjoy spending time with. One is NOT going to be accepting of her, he and his wife are very good friends of mine. The other 4 males/couples, I'm not close enough to yet to really matter, but I enjoy spending time with them. I also have 7 close friends who are female and attractive of sorts who I equally enjoy their company. Some of them are dating my male friends. There is of course nothing going on with any of them. 6 of them are single/dating and one is married.

Then I have one very close friend female (Faith1) whom I am truly going to miss if my WW comes home. How is anyone going to replace her? How is my WW going to become the friend that I have found in Faith1?

I have all these people in my life who fulfill or have been fulfilling or begun to fulfill the needs my WW left. I still have unmet needs and several needs, SF, romance, the companionship/mate type needs, which are still going unmet. Can my WW fulfill them? So in short, I don't have a romantic partner. I do have people who fulfill my needs otherwise out of the bedroom, that my WW is going to have to 'take over', as well as IN the bedroom. It sounds like a lot of work on her part, to come home. I would be very accepting for my WW to come home, and let her replace these people who have nearly made me complete. The only way I see her coming back into my life now, would have to be romantically at first, dating and then slowly replacing all these people who have given parts of their life to me. She is going to be under the microscope and I don’t even know if its fair for her at this point to even try and endure it. Am I even what she wants now. I am so much of a better of a person than before, but I had to lose EVERYTHING to get here. I am going to clutch to those things that gave me strength and I don’t know if I can let go of them to ‘rebuild’ my marriage successfully.

I know that this sounds so HORRIBLY selfish and the TAKER in me definitely doesn't want to give another thing, accept the mere acceptance of her coming home to pursue me. Do I love her? I really don't know. Do I want to love her? I want to be able to love the person, unrestricted, that was there in my life 51 months ago, without any headaches.

She wants to move back in and is worried that my independence now will be violated. I too am a little worried that my independence, which I had to seek to survive, will be restricted now.

I have lots of friends; many may not accept her back into my life. They don't know who she was pre-affair, only post dday. My family.... I have know idea what is going to happen with them. I have built trust back with my family and the boys love their grandparents more than ever now. She wasn't here for those relationships between my family and the boys to bond, and I don't want the boys relationships with their family here minimized because she doesn't want to be part of my family out of resentment, embarrassment, fear and/or acceptance. Our boys also have become the friends of the children of all my friends. So replacement of my male and female friends is going to affect the boys.

Do I want my marriage to work? What must I do at this point to save it? Work on it? Do I want to be free now, or do I want to be married. Has too much gone on? Have I waited to long? I have really become adept to being alone, which wasn't MY choice...and is her coming home, to be a wife, going to callous me?

Divorce has not been an option for me, but at this point I don't know the better route. Painful recovery, lose of my survival elements or divorce.

Being that this decision is in my hands, what do I need to be asking her, telling her and doing for myself to be prepared for the outcome of my own punishment of the decision I make?

h2y ~

Recovery is harder than surviving the affair. I understand all of your doubts...believe me...I spent quite a bit of time grieving for my lost "freedom" after choosing recovery instead of continuing the divorce with my husband.

I think that most of your doubts and concerns are valid. But I think you are making a mistake in expecting your WW to fill the "emptiness". I think thats a recipe for failure right there.

I spent years waiting for my husband to make me happy. It never happened, and instead that expectation bred resentments galore in both of us. Now, happiness is something that I share with my husband.

I really don't think that demanding that your wife fill your needs is the way to start. What you might do is ask her what she is willing to do if you choose recovery.

That's where your decision should lie. Not with your demands (although you SHOULD know what you need from her to choose recovery) - recovery should start with a clear understanding of what she is willing to do. What is HER plan - not her plan to fill your needs, but her plan to rebuild your trust?

My experience of recovery was that the needs filling part didn't start happening for some months. We focused on rebuilding trust, talking over the affair and what happened. We slowly started meeting needs in small ways as trust between us started gaining some shakey ground.

My husband was willing to voluntarily do what was necessary to rebuild my trust. Without that, I don't think we would have made it. So thats why I ask you....what has she said she is willing to do?

And perhaps the rest of the plan for recovery should be jointly agreed upon, instead of demanded by you.

If her plan for recovery and her willingness does not meet your needs, then you might consider divorce instead.

But demanding that she fill the void and make up for what you'll lose if you choose recovery is just a really bad start at an attempt to recover.

H2y...

Might be able to help some since I see both sides of this.

For background, I am the FWS. I am very much at a point where grovelling and apologizing is wearing me out and causing some resentment. That said, I completely understand her saying she is ready for a real recovery and great marriage or get out and start over.

THAT being said I think your requests make sense.

Couple thoughts - Recovery is only possible if she is willing to agree on NO CONTACT and to be trustworthy and open up and be accountable (no hiding passwords, cell records etcetera).

BUT you have to be willing as well. Willing to do what???? If she seems really serious I think a GREAT first step is to do the EN's questionaire and begin discussing where the two of you went wrong before, what you need in the future to be happy.

A word of advice, just my opinion....

DO NOT challenge the validity of her answers or allow her to challenge yours, they are personal needs and if she lists as her number one emotional need the need for you to read her a Dr. Seuss book every night then what the hell - do it!

Likewise your needs do not have to make sense to her, but she needs to see they are as important as hers.

With that in mind, why not book an all day meeting with her? Plan on doing the EN survey first then discussing it and see if you can work out a plan to do it. OBVIOUSLY it is not that simple but how much better would every recovery go if the couple has 2 people willing to declare a truce and focus on what can be done from today FORWARD to make it right???? if she is up for that I would imagine the rest of recovery would be a LOT easier.

Those 3 little words go a long way - if you love her let her know, expect a lot but let her know she can too...

One person, regardless of how to blame they may or may not be, can't fix it.

Hope that makes some sense and offers some hope.

2.

I read your "demands" as being your boundaries. And IMO, there's nothing wrong with that.

I can't tell you what to do H2Y, but I can share a bit of MY experience:

I was hardly one day into plan B when my H wanted to reconcile. I hadn't gotten my boundaries well enough in place by then (and I paid a hefty price for that later), but I was anxious to have him home. As uncomfortable as is was at first, it helped me to know that I was giving it my best shot, and I could not have any regrets about trying to recover my M.

It was very difficult explaining my reasoning to friends and family. But eventually, they all understood that I had to attempt recovery again. Because THIS time (we had been separated numerous times in the past), I had a plan of action (MB).

In my case, it turned out to be a false recovery, b/c of H's addiction to porn. However, although it wasn't the greatest 17 months of my life, that was a heck of a lot better than a lifetime of wondering "what if". And even my family and friends give me a lot of credit for taking my H back after all he had put the boys and I through.

Because in your case, you've been (mostly) separated from your W for 4 years (as opposed to my 4 months), she has an awful lot of "proving" to do for you. I think that her moving to Houston would be a great start. However, it should be imperative that you not give her any guarantees towards "recovery", b/c in all honesty, you don't even know if you're willing to try right now.

I also think that it is very cruel of her to leave it up to you as "accept me as I am, or D me". You should NOT accept her as she is, b/c as you said, you don't know who that is anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

H2Y, what is your GUT telling you to do?

Karen

You present interesting arguments. Only you of course can make the decision but make the decision that is best for you and the boys. I don't think a wife who has been involved in an affair for over 4 years and has been caught in numerous D days has much credibility. My vote is to do what your gut tells you to do for your own health and happiness for you and the boys. I wish you luck.

It sounds like you have moved on with your life and doing very nicely without your so-called wife. The fact that she abandoned her children for 4 years so that she could be with the OM should not be overlooked. She has shown a ugly side of her that should not be forgotten. In my opinion, If she wants the marriage than she needs to work her butt of to convince you that she is a changed person. You have the right to be the one who is pursued. It will show how much she values you and the marriage. Don't let her move back into your home. Let her get an apartment close by. Then see whether the marriage is worth saving.

H2Y,

I think Topie hit it one the head. She said <blockquote>quote:<hr />I also think that it is very cruel of her to leave it up to you as "accept me as I am, or D me". You should NOT accept her as she is, b/c as you said, you don't know who that is anymore. <hr /></blockquote>I believe all of your questions hinge on the fact that you "don't know her" so how could you possibly make this decision. You will not be chosing or rejecting the woman you married. So it seems to the the recommendation that was made after Topie's post makes sense. If she is willing to try she needs to move to Houston into an apartment, and you to date to see who you are. This should be coupled with NC with OM.

Really if she is unwilling to do that, then my thinking why buy a "pig in a poke", when life is starting to become good for you as it is?

Good luck on your decision.

God Bless,

JL

I agree with Topie and JL...with the following recommendation..

That you spend at least 6 months dating and then decide if recovery is an option...all under counselling.
T

I agree with Topie, Twyla and JL.

You aren't in a position to make a decision about a woman you don't know anymore. She has done incredible damage. That said, perhaps once you see her, spend time with her again, perhaps you will feel differently, some of the old feelings will come back again.

I think it is safe to say that any undisclosed contact with OM at this point (as it is likely HE will try to contact her), after multiple D-Days, well, that you would be fully within reason to move directly to divorce at that point.

im with topie, JL and twyla---very wise people. i do think the counseling is important

H2Y:

I also think your wife lacks credibility on this. I think that counseling is mandatory at this point, and the first order of business is to negotiate (via POJA) a plan to restore your marriage, taking your boundaries and her issues into account. If she's unwilling to step up to the plate to do this, then I think I'd leave it alone for another 6 months (but the fact that you're not ready to pursue divorce today means that you should wait another 6 months to recontact her BEFORE you move on to a divorce action).

God bless.

I want to thank each of you for responding. With heavy heart I've been thinking this through and I can't come up with a definitive anwser or response to the suggestions or the situation and questions posed to me by WW.

I've been waiting so long...... that I almost feel obligated to try restoration out of respect to myself. When you wanted something so bad for so long... and it eventually presents itself to you... its almost scary to accept it.

I've been speaking to many of my friends offline also and I've received alot of good advice. I'm scared to death to be hurt again if I fall back into love with W. I'm sure worried about us being together for 6 months post A, and either of us filing for divorce after being together again. I don't want to create a false hope for the boys that things are going to be okay.

I received a good job offer today and my life is really beginning to turn around. I have the opportunity to grow in this new position and finally have a decisive career path. I've got alot of good going on right now and I'm scared that the least little marital stress in recovery is going to doom it all again, affair or otherwise.

Again thank you for replying, I'm sure I'll be back shortly after I think this over a few more days and I get through this hectic week of job juggling interviews, training and certifications.

Sorry I didn't reply individually to your posts just yet. I may have time before the initial talk with my W. Feeling a little overwhelmed with everything right now. But I'm doing okay.

Thanks

Hi H2Y,

Just getting ready to hit the hay and saw your post. Glad to hear about your new job prospect. Our company is in the buy out process so maybe I will be able to take a break soon!!!

You know when reality hits, it hits all of us. Ws, BS and family....even friends, pets....everyone. The decision appears to be more in your court than hers. If you need to wait it out, no one can decide that but you. Look deep into your heart and pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. Then go forward and make your decision.

What is driving her to ask for recon now? What is she doing to 'convince you and the children' that she is worth another chance? I know you know I mean this in your best interest. It is soo hard to see a loved one suffer but then again, is suffering as you have been worth continuing? When will appreciation for H2Y and family begin?

take care and hugz to you and the boyz. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

H2Y,
You have a beautiful soul. Taking her back is a risk of getting your heart shattered again. But what is life without risks? The upside is that it could actually grow into a beautiful marriage. There is no time wasted because you will grow as a person no matter what the outcome. For me I know beyond a shadow of a doubt my divorce was the right thing to do. Until you are ready to say that I don't think Divorce is an option. You have great boundaries set. Take it slow. I think you are in a healthy place to pursue recovery where you are not willing to compromise core values for the sake of the marriage.

For me I also had to accept my responsibility in it all. My WS did not DO anything to me that I didn't allow him to do. When I was done with the marriage, I was done. I am no longer willing to allow him the chance to do it again.

I don't know if any of this is making sense. I just wanted to reply because your post sounds like you are looking at things in a healthy light and realistically.

I trust you to make the best decision for you. You need to trust you too. This is your decision to make. Gather others opinions but do what YOU want to do in the end.

H2Y,

Hello old friend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> nice to see you back. Been too long.

I'll give it to you straight, from the heart, because I care greatly about what happens to you.

If you are as far along in your personal healing as you write here: get the divorce <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I only say this out of major concern for you. I am not at all sure you could live through this again. Are you?

jd

Bear(JD)Hug

Thanks JD. I'm doing great at this time. Happy for the most part, lonely being alone...but that's expected right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If I have a bad day now, its not because of the A, but just because I'm having a bad day! Hey I nearly feel 'normal'. Summer is coming and I'll be making a decision before long. I need to talk to W again and fully discuss it. She's anxious about it because I haven't responded to her questions in full yet.

Glad to see ya JD, how are you doing? Thanks for coming out of the woodwork to respond to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh ya.. Thanks Orchid and ILNPM hehe dang gotta shower and get to the pistol range <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Will respond tonight

H2Y: I read your list with interest. I wonder how many WS realize the importance of #7 in recovery. You followed it with this explanation:

5. That I really want to be selfish and let her pursue and chase me if she wants 'us'. I have been on perpetual hold for 4 years now. I don't want to be the giver, as the taker in me hasn't had any pleasures or fulfillment of my relationship needs.

It's an obvious milestone on the road to recovery that I've rarely seen mentioned here on MB. We could do with some comments on its importance.

Hugs back at ya big guy.

I hope you didn't think my reply too harsh? I mainly focused in on her comment of 'take me as I am or divorce me'. This statement is an huge red flag, IMVHO. I want to make certian you understand the possible ramifications of that attitude in recovery.

Recovery is no different than marriage, in general. Both must be willing to give. That means giving up much of what we have when single, which the two of you are basically. What makes recovery so difficult, in a nutshell, is lack of trust. Everything else is a cakewalk compared(aside from the occasional trigger that pops up). The pain is there, but it is managable, easily so compared to trusting again.

You want my real advice to you bro? Too bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> your gonna get it anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Do not allow her to come into your life with this attitude.
Don't run out and get divorced(that was just to get your attention)but set some of those boundries Faith1 is always talking about, then stick to them.
Hard to do than say...lol.

So good to see you back here man. Your insights are needed around here. And while I post in spurts I mainly lurk and read. Although much less than last year.

jd

In response I want to thank each of you for taking the time to post here on my thread. I almost want my WW to come here and read what I've posted and suggested. I will handle it so much better this way. Less emotion, but also less personable. She is still in contact with the OM. How much? I believe nearly every day, when he comes over to see the baby.

Now, back to my post, at least to prepare myself for our talk later tonight.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LesThanIWas:
H2Y: I read your list with interest. I wonder how many WS realize the importance of #7 in recovery. You followed it with this explanation:

5. That I really want to be selfish and let her pursue and chase me if she wants 'us'. I have been on perpetual hold for 4 years now. I don't want to be the giver, as the taker in me hasn't had any pleasures or fulfillment of my relationship needs.

It's an obvious milestone on the road to recovery that I've rarely seen mentioned here on MB. We could do with some comments on its importance.<hr /></blockquote>My WS and I are suppose to actually take time to discuss these issues tonight. She doesn't know that I've began posting here again.

I too, would like additional input on my #5 and #7 as LTIW was asking additional comments to be added by others.

I know that some suggested that I needed to have her explain to me what she was willing to do to help restore the marriage. I guess this ultimately is the pivotal point in my decision.

Does she need to know that what she is willing to do and not do, is going to be where I pivot to recovery or divorce? Should she know that information before hand, or should she even know that at all?

Thanks, I'll be here off and on throughout the evening. I beleive our 'discussion' will begin around 9:00pm central time. Any responses, thourough or supportive would be appreciated before that time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

We talked about some of this, but I wanted to post it to see it in writing, and to see if anyone else wants to comment on it.

It seems like there are 3 basic things you need from her. Not as demands, but letting her know that you need these merely as means of survival..... things you don't see any way of negotiating on... ask her if she can commit to these things.

1. Compatibility with your family, and your BEST, true-est friends in your support circle (baby-sitters, neighbors, etc.). Is she willing to accept and establish civil communications with them? With the understanding, of course, that they will also treat her respectfully. Seems like this has been the biggest area of growth for you... you have built this support network, and you and the boys are thriving in it. She should respect that, and want to become a part of it.

2. No contact with OM, or that you 2 will negotiate together a reasonable "visitation" schedule between OM and OC. IMO, this goes along with what the others have said about asking her for her help - her plan - for rebuilding trust.

3. Counseling.

Aren't these 3 things necessary? Everything else (falling in love, learning to meet each other's needs, parenting, etc.) can fall into place.

Faith1

Anyone else wanna suggest any questions I need to be asking her tonight? Call is going to be at 1000p central

It almost sounds as though tonight's phone call is a "make or break" thing. Am I right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If that's the case, then the first item up for talks should be scheduling ANOTHER talk on the phone, for let's say, tomorrow night? or a few nights from now?

At least that way, with another "talk" to look forward to, you'll be able to write down all of those questions that will pop into your head AFTER you talk to her tonight.... and have the opportunity to ask them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The only other suggestion I can think of, is for you to do what you can to get yourself relaxed before talking to her. Is that possible? Only you know the answer to that one. Myself, I'd have a shot of something, or a glass of wine. I doubt Harley would recommend alcohol in a situation like this, and I'm not sure what your view on drinking is, but I know that one drink can sure help settle the nerves! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (speaking from experience... as I just had two rye and gingers tonight with some neighbour friends... and I haven't had a drink in MONTHS!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Take care, I'm thinking of you tonight.. nothing but GOOD thoughts and vibes are headed your way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Karen

Well my prefered drink would have been several 'ritas', but I choose to have a couple of Corona's. I'm a little nervous, but I guess this is 'it' as for decisions go.

I can feel the vibes coming Karen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Any last takers?

[ May 06, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Husband2you ]

Should have guessed it... the phone line is busy... so either one of the children is on the phone, and cancled the callwaiting feature, or its off the hook.

So I put the boys in bed, they'll have to talk to her in the a.m.

H2Y,

What talk????? Should this be her opportunity to convince you? You have talked your heart out so many ways, aren't you pooped from all that talk? I just want you to see if she is willing to try, if not how can you expect more, the right amount from her? Anything less is denying your family what is their right.

Ok, that's my 2 cents. Faith1 is right on. I know she is being a bit blunt but that's what family is about..... loving and blunt. Listen to her..... she has your wellbeing and that of your family at heart. Me too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Aloha bro',

L.

Well her phone was busy until midnight. She woke up and called... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> to let me know she was going back to bed, that she had been asleep since 930pm.

I called her this morning at 0700 and she was just getting out of the shower.

I guess us talking wasn't very important.

((((((( H2Y ))))))))

Gee, your W's "not talking" to you sure speaks volumes to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Did you ever complete that plan B letter of yours? (I think you were writing it around the time I was just going to, or coming back from the shelters... so I honestly can't remember).

Karen

Bumped for Relevance

Hi H2Y,

Any new news on the WW? How are you doing? I was reading your thread and I am interested.

October

Here's my rambling thoughts on this...take whatever serves you...

With all great respect to you ..

It doesn't sound to me like the two you even really like eachother right now...

that you are struggling with rebuilding issues but not looking at the smaller building blocks needed...
I wonder if you are able or wanting to protect your spouse at all
and that's not a judgement just an observation...
but the ability in my opinion to protect her and too as the vows say cherish her must be present in some form...
or I don't think it will even begin to work....

My question is not do you love her...my opinion onlove is rather easy....I love lots of things and people ....but I sure don't like lots...and there are plenty out there that I don't like enough to be married too...only one so far that I've liked enough to marry....

I think for anything to work you have to start with liking eachother first...
or else nothing else really matters or will work...

I also wonder how you feel about your children and their mother in their lives in some way...
the big picture of if not marital recovery, two adults co-parenting to the best of each ability and priority...

AND AGAIN husband2y this is NOT a judgement over your parenting role...you have done what you have thought best with what I hope is the childrens needs first...

So my next question what do you think about her and the children and where/how does she as their mother fit in their lives...
realizing that she may be guilty of causing them pain....
but is that not a place where healing should be sought...

Are you two spending any time together...
are you even living near eachother...I am easily confused...

If you really truly believe she is damaging to the children emotionally...then shouldn't you all be seeking supervised visits/counselling to address these issues..

And are you punishing your wife...or feel the urge to do so?...
and that's just a question not a judgement...the answer is your's alone to deal with...

but i would encourage you to wrestle these things through before engaging in to much of a heavy emotional investment with her..

1. do you even like her.
2. can you find a way to have her in the children's life even if you two don't ever resolove much
3. can you be with/around her without feeling like acting out on punishment...(hard to say the feeling of wanting to punish someone isn't present if it is...)..it's just the acting on it that is not right....

ark

Good luck, H2Y. You make it as nasty as it gets. Make your checklists. Make it impossible for her to be a mother to ALL the children she has born through your rules and regulations...

but someday, Lucidity's depression is not going to paralyze her the way it is now. What are you going to do with all your demands and conditions when she gets a lawyer and with documentation from your own hand (your list) and the no win situation with regard to the other child, she'll kick your fanny pretty hard.

Wake up man. This has to be a win-win, even if it's over. Your behavior hasn't been impeccible. You've done a lot of good things, but you've also painted yourself in the best possible light of a martyr father and her in the worst possible light as an uncaring mother. I don't buy either extreme.

One bit of advice that may be too late for you to take - and it may cost you some of your "good buddies" if you do reconcile your marriage...

I have been ever so careful when I've been righteously angry with my husband in how I talked with others about him. Because my primary goal was to be married and right before God, I knew that eventually I wouldn't be angry with him and that if he made the effort to repent, I'd not want others to have difficulty accepting him back.

Your admission that your friends don't think kindly of her is a reflection of your character NOT hers, because you chose to gossip about your wife, a woman you professed to want to be married to and endured four long years of infidelity...

Like I said, by your own admission in this demand that she accept your friends' bad attitudes and unacceptance and shunning of her to be ok - this damage was caused by you and can only be fixed by you.

Humble yourself before God - recognize you have harmed her and continue to do that harm. Repent!

H2Y,

From a Christian POV,

God grant you the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, (OC and OM seeing OC)

The wisdom to change the things you can. (Can you accept the things you cannot change, can you accept that your WS has done some work).

And the WISDOM to know the difference.

If you cannot accept OC, whom, by the way is legally yours because you are NOT divorced, then so be it.

Do what you have to do.

IMVHO, this OC is yours, legally. What is it that you want? What can you accept? Do you see that your WS loves your children altogether?

Don't misunderstand me. I realize that what has gone on with you and lucid is the worst case scenario.

Just want you to know my prayers are for you both.

If you cannot stand om contact because of OC, maybe you can accept OC as your own, because when you are married you are legally the dad, isn't that the law?

My opinion is that om has no rights. You do, as you are married to lucid. Perhaps lucid needs to accept this and no contact with om regardless. You are legally daddy. Can you deal? If there was NC, because M is more important, could you think of reconciling? This child is innocent, regardless of who parent is, legally, you are, so this is just something I am throwing out there. Children don't ask to be born, they have no choice in the matter, and it is up to BOTH of you to make the right choice for this innocent baby.

Anyway, prayers for you, and lucid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M