Well, it has been a little while with my own update. Partly because I have been caught in a paralysis in our relationship. That may have been broken yesterday in terms of knowing the problems we are having in putting this back together. But I am not sure if it is not too late to keep the marriage from falling apart again.

Let me explain.

Since my wife moved home in April, she has increasingly pulled back from me. First it was no SF. Then the affection went. Later, she stopped working with me to plan future events, or do things together. It has been a slow bleed.

As this materialized, I began to get worse. I would go through periods where I couldn’t take the fact that she was pulling back, that she didn’t want my touch, etc. I was becoming increasingly frustrated with her indecision.

And so, within the last two weeks, we have come dangerously close to us just folding up and ending it. To her moving out. My wife has even looked into a lawyer, and into the apartments down the street.

But she is still here. And then she came to me yesterday with a revelation she just had. A revelation that she harbors anger, frustration, pain, etc. from way before we ever met. That this bled into our marriage. That my pulling back from her exacerbated it. That the actions during her affair heaped “insult upon injury,” as she put it. And now, her inability to get past all of this has led her to believe she needs to separate.

Now, before anyone goes off the reservation here. She went on to explain. She believes that we are “killing” each other right now. That there were things we should have resolved before she came back. She says that under our current conditions, she is just pushing me to get angry, constantly provoking me. And she says that isn’t fair to me…I don’t deserve that.

When I told her that it sounded like she was just making excuses so she could separate and divorce, she lit into me. She told me that she was being honest with me. That she contacted someone yesterday, and is now seeking professional help for that anger, resentment, etc from her childhood all the way through to today. That if she separated, and I wanted to divorce, then so be it. But that is not what she is saying. She is saying that she cannot function under the current situation. That she is anxious and upset most of the time. Mostly because I am anxious and upset that she has yet to get back into this marriage or do anything positive to move it forward.

So, I came home later from work and we talked some more. She could see that I was visibly upset. The first part of the next conversation, I really Lbed big time. She immediately jumped up and started screaming, saying that she was being honest, but if I was going to throw things in her face, then the discussion was over. That she thought our talk earlier had been productive.

So, I calmed down, and began to talk. I told her that it would be impossible to separate and me not pursue divorce. That because there had been an affair and everything she did, if she left again…even if it is just to get her head on straight…that I could not function that way. I would wonder if she was with someone.

She said she would move down the street. That this was just an attempt to get back where we were right before she came home…and finish the healing and counseling to be able to do this right. That she has realized that the demons that have trailed her all her life have caused a lot of this, and that she cannot let go of the anger or resentment at anyone or anything…including me. That she needs this professional help in order to help her find a way to do that.

And then I told her again that separation now, because there was an affair, is not possible. Before the affair…sure. It would make sense because of what is happening. But now…no. I couldn’t and wouldn’t function that way. My kids wouldn’t understand. They would just see Mom leaving again, only to come back 6 months later. No! I cant and I wont.

I told her that this would have to be done in the confines of the marriage. She said “Well, where’s the compromise here, if you wont do separation?” I told her separation isn’t compromise, it is the end. Compromise is coming up with a workable plan, schedule, solution, etc that we can both feel safe in while she works thru her personal issues. But separation isn’t one of those options.

So, I have told her what I feel. That I know what we can be. That her revelation on her anger from throughout her life explains a lot of what has happened, including the affair. It explains why she hasn’t made the effort to moving forward since she came home.

But I also want an end to all of this. One way or the other. I told her stay…work on herself…and work on us………….or go and we will divorce. There are no other options.

I believe yesterday was a breakthrough for her in understanding herself and why she has done all of this. She said she wanted her integrity back. That she never lied….and over the last two years, she cant stop lying. She knows the anger and resentment is killing her and her happiness. And she feels she just needs to wrestle wit this alone and give us some air, so that we aren’t constantly at each others throats in a death cycle of being loving and then arguing and then being loving again.

I am interested in what you all think. I am pretty sure there is no OM, and no OM on the horizon. I really do believe her and what she is saying. But I am not sure how to guide us thru that. My needs have not been met. Later on last night, after dinner, we sat on the couch and laughed while watching TV…and I gave her a massage. It was nice. But, she wakes up this morning with me holding her…and she is as tight as a board and breathing with anxiety.

So, what am I to do? I know professional help is needed for her…but who knows when she will actually take care of that, or how long that help will take before we can get moving again. And in the meantime, I am just waiting some more? I doubt I would make it until the first of the year.

I am the BS and I have been thru Plan A and Plan B…and my wife coming home. I know that I thought I couldn’t make it thru those things…but I did. So some may say I can make it thru this. But, really…I do not want to. She came back to me last January because she said she realized what we had. She initially sought help and then stopped. She came home, started off great…and then has done nothing. I am tired and not sure I want to put any more time into this. I do love her and know that this can all work out. But I do not trust that she will do the right things to make that happen.

No more plans for me. I have reached the point where she is at the corner and there are two ways to go. She can go one way or the other…but it is time to go. I am not going to wait another 6 months, year, two years, etc for love, acceptance, affection, SF, etc.

But, I don’t know how to get her to understand that even though she understands the problem now, that her solution ends things forever…that I cannot join her in that. Or how to show her how to work on things, have SF and affection, while at the same time she works on herself (when she says that her feelings toward me are worse than before or during the affair and she has no interest right now in SF with me). With that being said, I am severely leaning toward just having her leave…and push thru the paperwork for divorce.

So, comments and questions are welcome. She hung on in our conversations, trying to get me to not just throw my hands in the air and quit. But she is adamant that until she figures out herself and this problem, there will be nothing for me. And I will not go another month without my needs for affection, SF, intimacy, etc being met.

So, great insight into our situation. But on the precipice of us losing everything. A very dangerous time right now!

In His arms.

Lord I hope I'm dead wrong when I say this but it seems to me that your W MAY indeed be, at the very least, talking to the OM behind your back. Remember that Dr Harley says that marital recovery is not possible if the WS and the OP are still in contact with one another. Her words seem eerily familiar to those she told you when she was living apart and was involved with the OM. Like I said I hope I'm dead wrong about this but I advice you to do some snooping to verify that this is not the case.

Well I agree don't let her move out or force her out.

She's home and your both working hard at keeping things together so keep working.

I think it's great that your wife has discovered that something is not right within herself and is trying to work through it. I think my still WW has many of the same internal unhappieness.

You have in the past told me to forget about time lines. Stay focused on what is working and when the preasure gets to great to move away for a little while and find something not relationship based to do. Have fun.

Remember the good things - empythize, compassion, love and understanding. And of course as long as this month is better than last keep moving with all those baby steps.

Remember your still standing and you wanted this chance so don't give up.

good luck,

TMCM,

I dont believe that she is in contact with OM or a new OM. Too much evidence to the contrary. But as you know, I have no problem snooping...with finding out. I really believe that her discussion yesterday was her way of trying to get back to last February, when she was working with a counselor, we were more affectionate...and things were moving forward. Right now, things only continue to get worse.

GG007: Problem is, for the last 6 months, things have steadily gotten worse. As my wife pointed out, we are in a death cycle. And the bad times in the cycle are increasing, while the good are lessening. Things are not getting better...only worse. Most of that has to do with her doing NOTHING toward the relatioonship for the last 6 months. She says hse has been doing the best she can, considering what she just told me about the anger and resentment. But her best has been nothing to me. And so, I continue to feel worse and act upon that because I want a relationship with her...and still feel trapped outside.

So, I agree with you...or would if things were indeed getting better. But they are not. And my timeline is that I refuse to go much longer with things getting worse.

In His arms.

Mortarman -

Listen to me, here. Your wife just came and was completely open to you about how she's feeling and hurting. And you, you selfish dolt of a man, made it ALL ABOUT YOU.

AND STOP THROWING AROUND THE ULTIMATUMS!!

Okay, enough of a 2x4.

I think, though, that it's important to really listen to what she's saying and not to what you're afraid she's saying. Is she saying she's leaving the marriage? No. Is she saying that she never wants to see you again? No. Is she saying that there's a big big problem? Yes!

Okay. When faced with a big big problem, we work with it. Preferably without getting all red in the face and bug-eyed.

It sounds to me like you two have a difficult issue that you need to negotiate. I DON'T think it's moving out, though. I DO think it's this:

"What's it going to take for your wife to feel safe enough to deal with her fears while remaining in your marriage?"

AND it's this:

"What's it going to take for YOU to feel safe enough to deal with YOUR fears while remaining in your marriage?"

Anger? Nah. I mean, sure. You're both angry. But anger is just the fight-or-flight reflex kicking in, that old survival instinct. It's there because you are being threatened. So you both have to figure out what's causing the threat WHILE you're living with it.

Incredibly, incredibly difficult.

I don't think walking away from the threat is necessarily the answer. I DO think that getting breaks from it is important, though, otherwise you start to get pretty drug out and tired with the whole thing, and that ain't gonna help nobody.

So. You need help. She needs help. You need help together. Your kids could probably use some help, too.

For heaven's sake, go talk to your nearest counselor (how about if you call Cerri instead of Steve?) for some advice.

By the way, if I remember right, you're in Northern VA. I work in Tyson's Corner and live in Bethesda. If your wife wants a sympathetic ear that you can trust as fully pro-marriage, I'd be happy to oblige.

Only you know what's best for you and obviously you have been trying and still want things to work out.

I really don't know what to say. Just remember there is no shame in failing only failing to try. And you have certainly tried very hard.

All the best!

MM-

Your wife is beign honest.

Do NOT give up.

Here's what I see...

She is starting to face reality. She is suffocating.

You are correct too, she can NOT leave. If this marriage is to work, neither of you can give in to this. Marrigae is working together through the difficulties.

Instead of getting defensive and putting up the walls, ask her what she needs to heal. Listen to what she says and then HEAR what she is crying out for.

She is 100% correct that her ISSUES are preventing her from recovery. Look at my story. Did your wife do ANY of the work that I did? NO. She has to go through it and if you really want to get to recovery, you have to start learning again.

POJA about what she needs. Sepparate room perhaps?
Let her know that you want to be part of the process. Tell her that you need to have her show you the way...

email me...

MM,

I don't know your complete story but I do remember parts of it and I think a complete sep right now would be the worst thing to do. I can understand that your W has things she needs to work out and has a healing process to go through as well, and possibly being very close to you is interfering with that process. It's clear that affection, intimacy and SF are pretty important needs for you and she may not be ready to fill those needs just yet. I can see how that bothers you a great deal but ask yourself this question. If you do separate and then divorce how long will those needs go unmet then?

Why not propose an alternate solution to her. I am not sure of your home layout but a MC once suggested to me to try a "cohabitation separation" That would mean sleeping in separate bedrooms and basically living separate lives in the same house. You and she could spend time together watching TV or talking and get comfortable around each other again with no pressure. It would also give you a chance to see if she is indeed doing the things she needs to do. If that is workable and she refuses I would be very suspicious that she wants time alone for "other reasons"

Hope that helps,

B

Let me answer the recent posts, because I believe there is a theme here.

Yes, she is being honest. And she is having trouble dealing with these problems of hers, with me so close and wanting/needing to be with her. I understand this.

Some have suggested a kind of separation within the same household. that wouldnt work on a couple of levels. If we are living "separate lives," then I just want to move on. I had moved on in Plan B...had even started talking to someone new, for those of you that remember my posts from January. Sure my needs arent currently being met. But I kept moving in this because I was moving towards a goal...reconciliation...which my needs would then be met.

It is like being deployed for war with the military. You will live in crap and do the hard work only if you know what the goal is and that everyone is working toward that goal. Change those dynamics, or leave it open ended (no exit strategy?!?! or win strategy?!?!?) and then soldiers have morale problems and quit. This is where I am. No exit strategy...no win strategy...and thus no reason to separate except to end the marriage.

On fulfilling my SF, affection, etc needs and how long that would take....not long. In some ways, the woman I talked to back i nJanuary is still out there, although we havent talked since March. I know her divorce was final in July, and that she is taking it easy for awhile to see what happens with herself. but also thru sources, I found out that she is also waiting to see what happens with me.

Now, before the 2x4s start flying...let me say something...what I am doing or not doing is not influenced by that situation. I am and have been committed to my marriage and my wife. So, dont think that this other gal is pulling me away. I am just trying to say that my situation in the areas of SF, affection, etc would change rapidly once my marriage was over with.

But what I want is SF, affection, etc with my wife. I know she is finally being honest. I know this. But her plans on how to deal with this are unacceptable with me. I cannot pull back with our marriage. Separation in the house or away to me right now is a non-marriage. Almost like everyone is saying it is free to date for awhile. No dice, even if we dont do something stupid like that.

She is trying to find her way...I will agree. but I have put EVERYTHING into this marriage and I will not back up now. Backing up is not an option. If I have to disengage from this marriage now, then I am packing up and moving on. This is the last battle for this marriage, win or lose.

So within that, I dont know what to do. Except for the little bit of LBing, our conversation was good. We got a lot out. But she doesnt know what to do with the fact that I cant pull back from the marriage and let her figure herself out.

Guys and gals...I dont either. I am just about done with missing out on my top 3 needs being met. It has been two years with NONE of them being met. We all have to remember that the love bank works both ways. I am pretty much empty and definitely dont have enough to weather a "separation."

So, I am asking her what we can do short of that...what we can do to meet both of our needs. But I am afraid she cannot meet mine with her dealing with these issues of hers. And I cannot support her anymore unless my needs for affection, SF and intimacy start being met.

A pretty hard impasse here. And I do not have a roadmap around it.

In His arms.

MM,
My first instinct is the same as TMCM's...she's continuing the A on some level, even if emotionally in her mind with no actual contact.

Most of us, when we are in trouble, go to those we love or trust or respect for support or advice. Logically that person is our spouse. So, in cutting your off from her healing process, if that is what it is, she's choosing not to have support from someone (you) she knows she can receive support from. So, I find her "seeking help" to be very suspect.

Plus she sounds exactly like my H the 7 times he left me.

In some ways she is right, being faithful, not being angry, not pushing other's people's button...she does have to figure that out for herself. But, she is a married person and separation is a step away from the marriage, it doesn't always lead to divorce, even with multiples separations, but I do believe that separation and any succeeding separation lessons the likelihood of the marriage recovering.

You already know that, I'm sure. But, you are a person of faith and you need to be sure that your words of divorce are really God's will in your situation, should you separate. He doesn't give the ok for divorce easily...and only for the adultery and resulting hardness of the BS heart. As my counselor always said..."Is it God's will for you to have a hard heart?"

But, I wouldn't fight the separation now, while she is still in the home. I would do as Dobson suggests in LOVE MUST BE TOUGH and open the cage door...and, no more ultimatums unless you are absolutely sure they are the words God is giving you.

Lor,

I agree with what you said. I am not giving ultimatums. I have told her that she is either in, or our. Not sort of in or sort of out in a separation.

Maybe there is the Om in her mind. I am not sure I believe that, but it is possible. She seems to want to engage me, to me not to pull away, so it doesnt seem that her answer is that she wants me to file.

But you hit the nail on the head with God. He will NEVER tell you or me to divorce our spouses, even in adultery. He just permits it.

Unfortunately, when it comes to my wife, her affair, and her not re-engaging me (for whatever the reasons), my heart is hardening towards her. She is going to have to be a big girl, grow up, and maybe do some uncomfortable things (like meeting my needs sometimes) in order to get what she wants. Otherwise, my heart does feel like it is hardening. And the door is closing for her.

In His arms.

This reminds me of the line of work that I'm in - I work with people who have gone through seminar after seminar to change their lives... and nothing has changed.

Your wife will have to reach the place of understanding that as long as she seeks to get her "recovery" while isolated, the problems always come back once she returns to her regularly scheduled life.

She MUST work out her recovery while living in the life situation she plans to live with AFTER she resolves her issues. You can't heal someone emotionally in an artificial environment, any more than you can heal a marriage while being separated. And her therapist should know that if they're any good.

J: you didn't hit him anywhere near hard enough w/ that 2x4. I will do that, but can't now. More later.

Uh-oh. John with the 2x4. How do I know that I am about to be **thwacked** pretty hard?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Mortarman, I've thought and thought and thought about your situation and not been able to find a viable 'solution' for you. Something occurred to me today. Your wife is very much going through the same things I did during our ordeal. I've told you via email that what she's pulling now reeks of false recovery. Her latest sounds just like a conclusion I came to when I couldn't get past my pride and anger to just TRY to reconcile the marriage. I feel that's what your wifes problem is as well...not past issues, but the refusal to deal with the present.

There is one major difference between our situations, however. You. My husband never pushed and never fought. He gave up and withdrew...which wasn't particularly helpful...but we would have been done long before our reconciliation had he had your testosterone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He didn't have the needs and demands of sexual intimacy, nor did he feel such a strong need for resolution. He's a very calm and steady person...and as painful as everything was...he still just didn't need to rush forth and have an end.

I can't help you with that, nor can I advise you about that. You are who you are, and if you honestly can't let this play out another 6 months to a year...then it may very well be done. She's not ready to be where you want her to be. It worked very well for me to be able to work through my pride while I was on my own. I do believe, however, it CAN be done without seperation. She's just trying to get away, right now.

Does your W know there is someone else on the horizon still?

Hey MM. I wanted to focus on this friend of yours a little. You sounded VERY sure that this didn't have anything to do with what you were feeling, but are you REALLY sure?

The reason I ask is because I had recently met someone when my WW came to me about reconciling. I have been put through plenty by my WW for that to be reason enough not to want and try again with her. I was VERY sure also that the other woman I had gotten to know had nothing to do with my resistance to wanting to try and reconcile with my wife. Our relationship was not very serious and had not become physical in any way. I made an appointment with Steve H. to talk with him about my WW and what I should do. I told him about this other woman also and he was all over that. Well by the time he had finished with me I saw very clearly that this other woman was a very BIG part of the reason for my hesitation.

You may be right and this other person has nothing to do with your feelings toward your wife right now, but I thought I would let you know what happened to me just in case it could be influencing you and you don't know it yet. The danger as Steve described it to me is that even though you may not be in love or even very serious about this other person it's planting the thought in your head that you could be happy elsewhere and that life could be good without your family intact. That is a dangerous way to be thinking right now. Good Luck!

MM,

Actually, I can see many options for this situation, none of which you or your W seem to have considered.

So let's take her solution first. You are rightly concerned that she would just go back into another affair with OM or a new OM. A very very valid concern. You could bring your resources to bare on this so that you KNOW if there is OM in the picture. You could even tell her this is the only way you could accept a separation and see what she says.

You could go to the solution you suggested, her staying there, working on the marriage but also working on herself. THe problem there is that the constant drain on your LB while she does NOT meet any of your needs will probably kill the marriage. So I don't think your solution as presently stated will work. Actually, her's has a better chance.

So what are some other ideas. First, I think I would determine IF an affair is going on. Lor's sensitivity is well founded, but I tend to think your W is not, but I know I could be very wrong here. So perhaps it is time to verify.

Here is what I would recommend you consider. THat YOU AND YOUR W go to a counselor, not a marriage counselor, but an IC trained to deal with childhood problems or anger problems. Let's assume her thinking is right. Then while you are there you would like her to talk with him about these things and develop a plan. Would it really help to remain together or would it help to separate while she is in treatement: ASSUMING THAT HE/SHE FEELS YOUR W NEEDS TREATMENT.

Next, you go to a different IC and go through the same exercise.

Then find a really good marriage counselor and do the same exercise and see what they all say. WHat would they recommend to accomplish three major things?

1. Your W gets the help she thinks she needs.

2. Your marriage is preserved.

3. You somehow are taken care as an H should be or at least a little. In another words something has to be done to help you through this. I don't think your W sees you as a human being, but rather as someone who can endure ANY PAIN, IF ONLY YOU WANT TO. She needs to see that you do have a limit.

You want all of these peoples ideas on how to accomplish all three things.

Then if you find someone with a plan that seems to make sense to you, your W, set a time limit for this to lead to getting back to being a married couple TRYING to save your marriage. NOT to get the marriage to where it should be, but at least to where you both are on the same page with the idea of restoration.

Then exercise the plan.

MM, I know some people have gotten the 2x4 out, and since most of them have not been here from when you were overseas and your W was running around and for all that has happened since then, it is reasonable that they feel this way.

But, we are not talking about a few months or even a year of NOT having needs met. We are talking about several years and some serious neglect on her part of you and your children. Frankly, you would have my blessing to pull the plug on this marriage right now. She got the free education from you. She can now divorce you and get half of everything while you could have divorced her and taken everything from her, in the state you live while she was having the affair.

You have saved her a$$ many times and the fact that she even has her children around and a house to live in much less her degrees is due to your forbearence (sp) and strength in attempting to save your marriage.

BUT, I think you and your W should talk about visiting a variety of counselors and seeing if they can offer a plan that will do something for both of you. I understand why you don't like her plan. All of her plans have led to intense pain and suffering on your part, and NO REWARD OF ANY KIND for your efforts and suffering.

IF she can be helped and her issues addressed, you MIGHT have the woman you always felt you married, but there are too many IF's for you to take her word.

I would also strongly suggest that if she does find a counselor and you are involved in the plan that she sign a release that allows you access to the counselor and information about her. THat way you can determine if progress is being made or it is time to pull the plug. I know it sounds controlling but she must do something to help you be reassured that she is really trying and not just taking you for another ride.

I think you should talk with her tonight about this, and make it clear that she needs to throw you a bone in this somehow, or I do agree with you, it should be over.

I have not often said this to anyone, but these are my feelings. THere are many shades of ways to deal with this, but it must include a component that keeps you in the loop. She needs to stretch her mind, and give somewhere for this to work.

Her plan as currently structured means she leaves all child care to you again, she leaves all bills for house to you again, she leaves you period to "see" if she can find it in her heart to be kind to a man that has done little else but show her mercy and she doesn't even feel the need to help you help her.

I feel like getting on a plane to your part of the country and having a long hard talk with her myself.

MM, if you get nothing else out of this post, realize that there are other ways to handle this other than divorce or her just leaving you in the lurch again.

God Bless you and your family,

JL

MM, I've read your threads - but don't know whether or not I've ever posted to you!

You've always gotten such good advice and positive results that there's never anything for me to add until now.

I think you should consider counseling with Steve Harley. It's expensive, but very well worth it from the emotional pain he can save you and your wife from when you follow his recovery plan.

You'll be able to sort out the issues and make the best decision for yourselves with his help.

H and I are in a good recovery as a result of what we learned from MB coaching. It's much more than what you'll find on this website, MB books & fellow posters! All of which is great support, but doesn't hold a candle to the expertise you'll find with SH! Blessings, CSue

MM, It is sooo hard to go so long without EN's being met. AT some point it's burnout time, nothing left to give...you are only human, you want so badly to feel loved and love back without having to fight so darn hard for it!
But if we've learned anything here is if something is worth fighting for, we have to do the work(which you know how to do, obviously). You have reached deep inside and pulled out the last drops of love before, do it again, there is some still left.
Sift through the wonderful advice given here,(i don't have it, just encouragement) and keep trying. I don't think you are really ready to give in yet.
Please don't forget to still do nice things for you! Take care of yourself through all of this! Don't allow this to wear you down completely!
I know how this other person may affect the situation...I was just there...and it did get my mind off WH, it felt wonderful, it made me feel like life can go on without WH, BUT, then the R really didn't go anywhere after it got P and you know what...I'm back to realizing that I still do want my M! I wouldn't introduce anyone to my kids for a VERY long while anyways, so it would be very hard to carry on a 2nd life....LOL, see the irony here!
ANyways, I digress...just want to send you a hug and good thoughts...and a question...do you ever feel pressure to get this right because so many people here seem to follow your story and seek your advice? I hope not....do this for you and your family, not us! You know, I will always admire your strength, focus, common sense and your ability to reach out to others selflessly...no matter what happens. You will always be considered a success story here...and remember that if you have done your very best you have succeeded in what you set out to do... and that was to do everything possible so that in the end, you have no regrets....
Are you there yet? Probably not...
Hang in there MM!

OK, 2x4 time. But, I may need a sledge hammer. Or maybe not. You see, all I know is what I read and infer from your threads, and I know very well that that does not convey the whole picture. Furthermore, I am gong to make some assumptions about what is gong on to fill in the blanks that may or may not be valid. Test my words with your experience. I hope they are helpful.

I want to start by picking out one thing (a DJ) you said, and using that hammer: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I told her that it sounded like she was just making excuses so she could separate and divorce, she lit into me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM: You really had problems doing a good Plan A, as I recall, mostly because of your inability to handle your anger, and it is aparent you did not learn the primary lesson of Plan A: NO LB's!!!!! It is the one part of Plan A that is supposed to be permanent and universal. According to the Bible (see I Peter 3:7 - the "consider her as the weaker vessel" thing), and current research (what a coincidence) avoiding LB's is a more important priority for men than women. Smalley wrote a whole book on it, just for men (If Only He Knew). In that book, Smalley has a list of about 140 things that you should avoid doing to your wife. According to my wife, I was only dong two of them before her A. They were inadvertent on my part. It was still enough to cause her to withdraw from me and leave her vulnerable for an A.

OK, here is the "assumptions" part, where I am going out on a limb to smack you with that hammer: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is saying that she cannot function under the current situation. That she is anxious and upset most of the time. Mostly because I am anxious and upset that she has yet to get back into this marriage or do anything positive to move it forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley says that it isn't the past that is the problem, it's the present. I was pretty skeptical about this, at first, and I am sure there are exceptions, but he has a LOT of experience with this. I called him once about something that involved delving into the past, and he was all over me about what we were not doing now that was probably provoking my feelings that we needed to resolve something from the past. He was right. Schnarch talks about “resolving the past in the present”, and gives examples in his books, as well. I have run into lots of other therapists that have taken a similar approach. And, based on the quote above, I think your wife is in agreement with them, despite what she says about not being able to let go of her anger because of her personal history (though her history may, indeed be making things worse). With that in mind, I think she can't forgive you because you continue to LB - possibly even in ways neither of you recognize (and you have admitted that you do LB in ways you do recognize). I am afraid the separation may doom your marriage because she will feel such a sense of relief from being out of range from you that SHE will be the one to initiate divorce. She says “you are killing each other”. When are you going to stop your half of that? I heard a marriage therapist on Focus in the Family the other day who has written a book called something like “Safe Haven Marriage”, and she really emphasized how important it was to be able to be emotionally honest. Have you created an emotionally safe environment for your wife? I doubt it. I know you have come here and written about how angry you are about things that she is not doing. I see you reporting communication between you where you make demands and throw DJ’s all over the place, and I see you punishing her in this latest situation for being honest.

Which brings up the solution, if my analysis is right: and stuffing your anger does not work, so I am not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that you dig below your anger and find the fear, frustration, or pain that is causing it. Your anger is a valuable guide that will point you to the critical issues that you need to resolve. Let me give you an example from your current situation: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And then I told her again that separation now, because there was an affair, is not possible. Before the affair…sure. It would make sense because of what is happening. But now…no. I couldn’t and wouldn’t function that way. My kids wouldn’t understand. [DJ about them]They would just see Mom leaving again, only to come back 6 months later. No! I can’t [good] and I won’t.

I told her that this would have to [demand] be done in the confines of the marriage. She said “Well, where’s the compromise here, if you wont do separation?” I told her separation isn’t compromise, it is the end [DJ]. Compromise is coming up with a workable plan, schedule, solution, etc that we can both feel safe in while she works thru her personal issues [GREAT!]. But separation isn’t one of those options[demand].

So, I have told her what I feel [nope, you’ve mostly made DJ’s and demands]. That I know what we can be[DJ!?!]. That her revelation on her anger from throughout her life explains a lot of what has happened, including the affair [DJ]. It explains why she hasn’t made the effort to moving forward since she came home[DJ-even though it is only affirming the J she has made about herself]. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me suggest what you might have said that would have avoided the DJ’s and demands, and also been emotionally honest enough that it would draw you closer by allowing her to understand you better. (I understand you may have done some of this, and I am criticizing the conversation as you reported it, not as it actually occurred.) How about if you said the following (modified to be true for what you are really feeling)?:
“If we separate again, I don’t think I can do it. I am afraid that you will cheat on me again. I am not strong enough to go through just the pain of that fear again. I don’t know how to explain your leaving again to the kids. I am afraid that they wouldn’t understand, and that the pain of having their family torn apart again would be too much for them. I am afraid that seeing their pain would be too much for me. I am exhausted. As much as I want to, I just don’t think I can do it. I have been through too much pain."

You need to open your heart to her in a way that she can actually hear you, not covered up with so much anger that she just gets defensive. Stop protecting yourself with your anger, and start protecting her from it. Just be honest with her, God and yourself about the emotions underneath the anger.

JL’s suggestions are excellent.

Harley does say separations are useful in cases of abuse, and this may qualify.

The bottom line is: what does God want you to do?

Mortarman - I feel strange giving you advice, since I consider you an expert here. But from a female point of view, women need intimacy before they can respond sexually. Yes she needs to work on her issues and counseling. In the meantime you need to take care of SF yourself and completely stop pushing wife. But take her on walks, go out together, give her massages, and take a little R & R from the war. Just try to have fun together for awhile. I bet that if you stop trying so hard she will come around. Hang in there, we are all counting on you to make it through this.

GG007: Problem is, for the last 6 months, things have steadily gotten worse. As my wife pointed out, we are in a death cycle. And the bad times in the cycle are increasing, while the good are lessening. Things are not getting better...only worse. Most of that has to do with her doing NOTHING toward the relatioonship for the last 6 months. She says hse has been doing the best she can, considering what she just told me about the anger and resentment. But her best has been nothing to me. And so, I continue to feel worse and act upon that because I want a relationship with her...and still feel trapped outside.

I sit here and wonder why you keep "clingy" to a method that you BOTH believe isn't working...
Neither one of you are happy, you both admit it has gotten WORSE, and yet you keep wanting to say the solution is for HER to try.. even though she says that is not going to work for her..

You want honesty, and then when she is honest with you, you are basically telling her "don't tell me that"........

Solution....

LET HER GO!!! If you truly love her then why won't you let her go? If you have decided that you will divorce her if she goes, that is fine. That leaves her with the consequences of her decision..

Mortarman, you can and will be just perfectly fine if she leaves. The harder you try to save a relationship the more it evades you...

Tell her that YOU have decided that maybe it is best that she leave because you don't want to live like this anymore either....

Don't you see the wisdom of letting go of this obcession to make it work. She has felt nothing but pressure this whole time. Pressure does not work to get people to CHOOSE to do things. What works is the total opposite.. NO PRESSURE....

Looks like I am alone in this view, but again I must say... what you keep doing and have been trying to do is not working.. why not try a method that has been proven to work..(letting go)?

The danger as Steve described it to me is that even though you may not be in love or even very serious about this other person it's planting the thought in your head that you could be happy elsewhere and that life could be good without your family intact.

So, let me get this straight.... It is NOT ok to have thoughts in your head that life could be good and you could be HAPPY without your family intact?

And it is OK to keep staying in a relationship where both people are unhappy.
Keep those thoughts that you can possilby be happy if things don't work out out of your head..????

I think this is total nonsense.. It is actually HEALTHY to know and realize that you can be happy whatever the outcome....

The GOAL should be to be HAPPY whatever the outcome.

Mortarman I totally agree with John's excellent script:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"If we separate again, I don’t think I can do it. I am afraid that you will cheat on me again. I am not strong enough to go through just the pain of that fear again. I don’t know how to explain your leaving again to the kids. I am afraid that they wouldn’t understand, and that the pain of having their family torn apart again would be too much for them. I am afraid that seeing their pain would be too much for me. I am exhausted. As much as I want to, I just don’t think I can do it. I have been through too much pain."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If after this your W stills takes it upon herself to separate, then she has no one to blame but herself for the consequences of her actions. At this point in time then I would agree with Keepmvn4wrd comments about you letting go of her.

Hi MM,

Sorry to hear of the latest events so I'd thought I'd throw in my 2 cents (if you don't mind).

IMHO, your W is still have an A. For real or just in her mind it is still an A with the ability to do the same damage. Something about women, we tend to fantasize more and leave reality in that dream world. Guys like action, most women like to dream. Did you see the Dr. Phil show where the girl planned her wedding but there is no groom? That happens way more often than we know but when the girl is alredy in her 30s..... well acting out one's dreams at 15 vs 30 makes one seem questionable. For many women, the A does the same thing to them and the effect is chaos to the family. At those times, all real family R's become an obstacle.

Now my take is similar to Lor's, you may need to treat this as if she is having an A (EA). Then step back prepare for the worst and let her go.

U keep the family home and the children. Treat it as a woman gone insane and protect you, your children, your home and your finances. Serious.

Let her know you love her but you all just can't live with her disrespect for you and your family. Put her out there on her own. You see she is testing you. She wants you to push her out so she can in her little mind, blame you

Why do I say this? Because what you have written is very very similar to what Lor and I have gone through, several times. For me it was 2 1/2 years after the WS came home. Yes, really. So I understand about your being at your wits end.

Do you recall on some of my other posts, I mention about plan B always being kept in my back pocket? Well that is why. You see once you begin your personal recovery and the WS attempts to start recovery but fails at times, whipping out the plan B avoids the LB marks. Why? Because plan B puts sets your boundaries and puts distance between you/family and the cause of the pain.

Another piece I told my H was that when he came back (I kept those words positive), I told him when he came back the stakes for his return would be higher. Each time they went up, not down. In the sense that more was to be expected of him, not less. I no longer chose to stoop to meet his needs, he needed to meet ours.

Don't get me wrong, I did not stop meeting his needs but they were not 1st. I did not cater to him.

What resulted? His attitude changed. We now do things more as a family vs independent. A look will make him wonder then ask how am I doing. Affection has returned, trust is in the works (that one will take a lot longer). Who is the driver now? At first it was more me. Now we are learning to share that lead by taking the other's needs into consideration. Not do them, consider then together. Hard to do very hard but doable.

MM, I know you can survive this. Step back and take a look at what you have gone through and how you can direct at least a part of what is ahead. Control what you can and let go what you can't.

take care,
L.

MM,

I has been cheated again after I thought my M was going good after the first d-day ... it came back w/ vengance 3 years later ... why ?. Dummy me, I had the prove now on my hand that she contacted him 6 months after she promised of NC and this time she was getting smarter !.

Look at the fact, use your head, not your heart and certainly not your other head. You want this M to work out you might be blinded by it. Snoop and find out. I agree 100% w/ you on separation mean the end, if there is any hope of your M ... this is the most crucial time. I know you could hold not receiving ENs from her (your other head's taker is talking) and still have enough juice to go the distance. But if she won't let you fillin her ENs there is no hope of your M ... period.

I would get SH or Jen C a call.

-rh-

Mortarman,

I don't think the OM is in the picture but it sure would be alot easier to bring him back if she were out of the house...so on the no separtion requirement I agree with you.


But I am bothered by the fact that your divorcee friend is anywhere in your mind. I know you are not pursuing this woman but I also know it is much easier to let your heart harden when you allow yourself to believe the grass will be greener on the other side.

Comments like...my sources tell me she is taking it easy...and waiting to see how things turn out with me...make me sick to my stomach. First of all what kind of "sources" would want you, a married man with children, to know such things. What purpose would a supportive friend want you to know there is a woman out there available to fulfill your needs very quickly after your divorce. And if you are searching out this information then I am disappointed in you. There is no reason any married man should inquire about the status of any woman's feelings or plans regarding her personal life other than his wife. If you are not searching out this information then you should have more conviction and tell your sources this inforamtion may be important to an unmarried mortarman but it certainly is detrimental to a man in the trials of recovery.

Mortarman, I know you have been through alot and I would not blame you if you were done with the marriage. But if youa are going to go don't go out like this.

Believe me I understand how hard it is to be the only one working on the marriage and I understand how alluring the possiblities of fulfillment with another seems but would you really be the man you know you can be if you spend one minute of your married life considering life with another woman. Why is your heart hardening now? I know it is because you wife continues the torture of withdrawl but is it a tiny bit easier to let your marriage go because there is a warm spot in your heart for your "friend". A warm spot your nuturing by having "sources" who supply you with the information your heart wants...admiration, the promise of affection and SF.

It is just amazing to me now that after all that you have gone through, now when you yourself say you believe she has made a breakthrough, now when she is trying to be honest, now when she is trying to face the horrors she has created in her marriage and family life, now your ready to give up!?!

I know when things are tough it is easy to think, Why do I put up with this, there are people out there who would treat me right? But it is unfair to your wife, your "friend" and the man who has come this far to personalize that question. Unfair to your wife because you have pursued this marriage to the nth degree and now when she starts to own up to her behavior it is too little too late-I agree she may deserve that but it is not what you have presented to her thus far. It is unfair to your "friend" because you will enevitabley look to heal your wounds within your relationship with her-that won't happen. And unfair to you because this is plainly beneath you.

If your marriage is over it is over. And I commend you for giving it everything. But keep this woman and your "non" pursuit of her out of your married life. When your tempted to think of her, pray, when your sources want to discuss her, don't do it, pray. You are a married man, an unfulfilled, frustrated married man, but married none the less. Married men don't considered the possibilities available to them if and when they divorce...at least honorable married men don't. And you have been nothing if not honorable...continue to be.


continuing prayers,

ayslyne

MM,

What would the good Dr. Dobson say? You are holding her too tight and she is struggling to get away. Recommend a refresher reading of Love Must Be Tough. Time to retreat and regroup.

Remember, if she is pulling in one direction and you grab onto her and hold on, she will always be looking for the opportunity to escape. Back off for a while, take the pressure off. Do what was recommended earlier: ignore SF for now, keep the relationship light and non-threatening. Allow her to become comfortable and relax with you again.

Good luck.

What happens when, after PlanB, the WS returns home only to finish depleating the LB? Isn't it possible that the BS may finally run out of love for the WS after they return?
Mortarman, for 18 months you have been trying everything you could do to save your M, and you have my respect for it. But no M can survive an A if only one S is willing to do what is necessary for the recovery, and that includes fulfilling the EN of the other. There are as many excuses for not meeting EN as there are for having an A.
I think that you, and I, may be in the BS fog fantasy: that if we can only get the WS to leave the OP and return everything will be right again. Return only offers the chance of recovery, not the guarantee of recovery. Both you and your wife must understand that this may be your last chance.
Stay strong.

MM,

Wow. You have gotten the gambit of replies from some very knowledgable people here man. Sorry, guess I'll give a little more... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But take it as you will. No disrespect intended toward you or WS.

I remember the posts from when you were seeing the other woman you have mentioned in this post. I remember how torn you were back then. I remember thinking how this whole recovery with your wife seemed not exactly right. I may have even posted on my feelings at that time, sorry I do not remember.

I guess MM, what I really want to say is,(and I realize this is NOT a poll)I agree wholeheartedly with what you feel now. ENOUGH! Hold her butt to the fire. She gives 100% effort to stay in and save the marriage now, or she is out of there for good. MM has lived with this pain and neglect long enough.

It has always been my prayer that your WS would not only return home, but do the hard work necessary(from the start)to repair the marriage. This is proof positive she has not. And how much more time has passed since she returned home? That is a long time.

I pray for you man. No 2X4s from me. It is a fact that not all marriages can be saved.

Guess I better put on my armor now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

jd

MM-

You've received some great advice and have lots to consider so I'll just highlight some earlier posts and let you know we're praying for you. Please know too that your contributions to these boards over the last few years are a big reason why you've received so much advice. People really care and want to see your M succeed!!

IMO, there are a few things that should have priority over all else for the forseeable future in your M. First off, you'll need to continue to work on not LB'ing when the two of you communicate. Instead of expressing anger at her not meeting your needs, tell her why you're mad in a non-LB sort of way. As someone mentioned earlier, the goal should be to create a environment where both of you feel safe talking with one another without fear of LB's.

Secondly, take some time to consider where all the anger is coming from. The easy answer is that it's because you haven't had your EN's met in like....forever!! And to a certain extent, that's understandable. If you look further though, the real cause will most likely be fear so examine that angle.

Are you afraid of being alone for the rest of your life? Worried that you might not find the same kind of love you had with her? Does it seem like it would be too much to hack it alone with kids, juggling a career, etc? If you can start communicating that fear to her, it WILL bring you closer together and increase your chances of working this out.

Finally, more snooping is in order to confirm that she isn't in contact with this OP. As you know, continued contact would absolutely destroy any chances for R. Does she understand how important it is that she be accountable for her time away? Passwords to cell phones, work phones, computers, etc.? Hopefully this last point is a non-issue, but it has to be verified. Good luck MM, we're pulling for you.....

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

MM -

John39 is better with the 2x4s than I ever will be. Thanks, John! That's EXACTLY what I was sensing.

Now, to re-emphasize things:

- Your wife is angry. Sure, she's thinking about the past, but what's she's telling you is that she's angry RIGHT NOW. Probably at you. And my guess is that she has no idea how to express it, and is terrified of your reactions to that anger.

- YOU are angry. And you're expressing it in ways that you can see and ways that you CAN'T see.

So deal with the anger! Right here, right now! Anger management classes for BOTH of you, and yes, NO ANGRY DISCUSSIONS AT ALL until you can get that done.

And go get a book called "Anger" by Thich Nhat Hanh. He's a Buddhist monk, and as you know, the Buddhists are some of the most pacific people anywhere. I find his stuff to be amazingly accessible.

There are Christian texts on it, too, but you're so wrapped in Christianity that I'm afraid you'll miss the message and instead get wrapped up in the messenger. You need 2x4s, here, not religious text interpretation. So step out of your box and take the 2x4s!!

By the way, the introduction to the book is about a woman who was in even more dire straits than your wife is. Things were so bad in her marriage that she'd decided suicide was the right answer. She made it back on her own, and helped her husband get there too. Can YOU do that for your wife?? I want to know.

MM: whether the 2x4 was deserved or not, know that my wife and I are praying for you.

To completely change gears: You know, I have been ruminating on session one of Gary Smalley's video series "Solving the Real Love in the Real World Puzzle" quite a bit lately, and I would bet it applies to your situation. We know that the Harley program works 100% of the time, for the people that can actually do it. The problem is that not everyone manages to do it. So I was wondering about how to deal with the problems that prevent people from staying with the program, and when I saw that video, a light bulb went off. My first thought was: "Isn't Harley brilliant? If you do things his way, you will never have this kind of problem." After some reflection (including on our own situation), I realized that what Smalley describes is EXACTLY the kind of thing that could short-circuit a couple's attempt to live out the Harley principles in their marriage. Smalley's organization offers intensive 2- or 3- day programs that start with the exercise described on that video. They claim an amazing success rate for the program, even for people on the brink of divorce.

The theory is: behind every repeating, unresolved conflict that couples have, there is a fear on both their parts, which makes teh conflict impossible to resolve. When you identify the fear behind each person's side of the conflict, it is possible to come up with ways of dealing with the underlying issues instead of the surface issues - which can never be dealt with effectively becasue they do not get to the root of the problem, AND because the fear they trigger makes it almost impossible for us to deal rationally with the surface issue. Smalley calls this spiral of unresolved conflicts "the Fear Dance". So, if you can figure out what fear for each of you lies underneath your repeated conflicts, and deal with THAT, not whatever the surface issues is that triggers it, you may be able to resolve this yourself. If not, run this idea by Steve, or talk to the Smalley people. (http://smalley.gospelcom.net/)

logical leap #2 (I suppose this belongs bakc in the 2x4 section)

Are you still counseling w/ Steve, and if so, what does he say? Same thing he said last month? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Steve left me with both of us having our own plans right now. I am to only protect her from myself. No educating her, no demands to meet ENs...really no R talk. If she starts pulling me down that path, we now have a code phrase that tells the other to stop what they are doing. We are to say "I can't talk right now." If I am LBing or doing something that she is uncomfortable with, she is to tell me "I cant talk right now." And I am to stop immediately.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't sound like you are implementing your part of the plan.

Have you ever noticed how the Bible directs women to submit to their husbands, but does not direct husbands to make them submit? What is it we say here over and over...? (You can only control yourself)

<small>[ November 09, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

MM:

I had to go back and take a second look to make sure this was really YOUR thread. I haven't had time to read it carefully but had to throw in these comments.

Remember what you told me about letting my FWH go through the pain? Sounds like to me that your W is starting to be honest with you, opening up and sharing her pain. Steve H. indicated to me that this is an important step during RECOVERY. She may be doing some of what he told her to do. Don't you think she might be trying to escape the pain by running away to separation? Don't let her.

Didn't you guys also tell me TIME and PATIENCE? Try to hang in there some more MM! Maybe there are other options for getting your needs met right now.

I guess I do agree with some of the others unfortunately that there may be contact with the OM. My FWS contacted the OW during our recovery and he was extra sneaky about it-mostly phone conversations. MM she can call him when you're not around, at work even, without you knowing about it.

She also sounds like my FWH in wanting me to kick him out by being mean and angry. I wouldn'nt play that game with him, remember? Don't play into her game, MM. Hang in there with your marriage and focus in yourself! Remember the things you told me !!! Let her leave if she wants to but don't make it easy for her by agreeing to it.

It's weird. Just last night my H began sharing feelings with me. He seemed uncomfortable with it, like he was being too honest and open. He said, "You won't tell anybody will you?" I felt uncomfortable with it to. I think they have been used to sharing with the OP so we need to try to welcome the sharing with us.

This is just my 2 cents.

MM, follow your own advice.

Hi MM,

First let me say, I'm sorry you are so frustrated with the state of things. I understand how frustrating this is.

Second, honestly, I have to agree with those who comment about the person from the past who you talked to. Just her presence, could be clouding your judgement with regards to your M. Let me put it to you this way. You had hopes of recovery with your W. You probably thought by now, that the state of your M would be really good and it has not progressed at all, and here is this person, that is waiting in the wings so to speak, to see if your M succeeds or flops. It is real tempting to go to the willing participant than to stay and work even more on your M, when things so far have not been productive. However, I see productivity with the honesty your W just shown. Now is not the time for her to shut down.

You see MM, twice now, since I discovered my H's A, it would have been so easy for me to leave the M and see someone else. One man was probably more my fantasy than anything else, the other one, I know would start a R with me if I was willing and seperated or divorced. Knowing this, there have been times, where I found it effecting my willingness to work on my M.
some days the temptation to walk away and start new has been greater than my desire to make my M work. My kids is the reason why I resist.

Separation, would not be good for anyone involved. It would make it too easy for everyone to give up, and the kids could lose all trust in their mother. She abandoned them once already, what would a second time do to them. This is how they will probably see it, as abandonment and that she does not love them enough to stay. They are too young to understand adult complex thinking.

I agree that counseling is needed for everyone concerned. Call Cerri or the Harley's. Cerri is very practical and level headed.

Would your W be willing to talk to one of them?

Okay everyone...sorry to not get back to you. Been a very busy week on all fronts. On a side note, I just wanted to say that I have one month until I reach my minimum retirement date from the military!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First, I want to answer each of the posts here, since so many good people took the time to help me. Sometimes it is kind of weird, that I am able to help others, but cant see the forest thru the trees in my own life. Anyway, here we go...

Hope4Future:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman, I've thought and thought and thought about your situation and not been able to find a viable 'solution' for you. Something occurred to me today. Your wife is very much going through the same things I did during our ordeal. I've told you via email that what she's pulling now reeks of false recovery. Her latest sounds just like a conclusion I came to when I couldn't get past my pride and anger to just TRY to reconcile the marriage. I feel that's what your wifes problem is as well...not past issues, but the refusal to deal with the present.

There is one major difference between our situations, however. You. My husband never pushed and never fought. He gave up and withdrew...which wasn't particularly helpful...but we would have been done long before our reconciliation had he had your testosterone He didn't have the needs and demands of sexual intimacy, nor did he feel such a strong need for resolution. He's a very calm and steady person...and as painful as everything was...he still just didn't need to rush forth and have an end.

I can't help you with that, nor can I advise you about that. You are who you are, and if you honestly can't let this play out another 6 months to a year...then it may very well be done. She's not ready to be where you want her to be. It worked very well for me to be able to work through my pride while I was on my own. I do believe, however, it CAN be done without seperation. She's just trying to get away, right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again for the emails, and the support here. I know that you have a great insight into what is going on in my wife. Your comment on "present issues" is right on the money, as I will show in my update below. Again, I do have a very strong sex drive and need for affection. And it is that need that is maybe forcing me into some LBs. But all-in-all, I dont believe that it is that which is forcing her away. But see my update below, and you'll understand what I am saying.

A.M.Martin:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does your W know there is someone else on the horizon still?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I talk to her about it? No. Does she believe that I could move on, especially in my current frame of mind and emotions? Absolutely. Really, the gal we are speaking of is not really in the picture. She has her own life, has finally gotten her divorce, and as far as I know, she is dating now and attending to her 1 year old daughter, as a single parent. So, what is there really to tell my wife? That it is possible that I could start things up with her, or someone else? First of all, that would sound like an ultimatum to her (a big LB) and second, like I said, there is nothing going on there right now. So, discussing this thought in the back of my mind would only fuel her ability to convince herself that this was over, that it would never work.

Starman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey MM. I wanted to focus on this friend of yours a little. You sounded VERY sure that this didn't have anything to do with what you were feeling, but are you REALLY sure?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and no. Yes in the fact that I am still fully committed to my wife, my fantasies and sex drive all surround my wife. There are no others in that. No...because my continued needs not being met have started to creep into my mind, and made me thing that I may not be able to do this much longer, that I do want a life. So, maybe it affects it a little, by now making me want our situation to get moving, or to end. But it hasnt lessened my commitment to my wife or my family.

If you remember from my posts in January while I was in Plan B, I had met this woman and we became friends. She was going thru the same thing I was. We talked a lot about our faith, parenting issues, and legal issues concerning our WSs. But, as she put it, I dropped her like a hot potato when my wife decided to come home. Why? Because I thought we had crossed a line? No. We made sure of that. But because I wanted to show my wife that I was fully committed to her and reconciliation...that there was nothing hypocritical about my efforts. That, as the Bible says, if something even seems wrong, then I shouldnt do it, even if it really wasnt wrong. But, there has never been a hesitation on trying to repair my marriage or commitment to my wife. I too have spoke with Steve Harley recently. He knows fully of the situation with my wife, and how I am feeling. He has asked me to hang in there and let him do his work. But, unfortunately, it has been 5 weeks since my wife has spoken to Steve and doesnt appear to want to anymore. So, I am still left deciding where my future is.

JL:
You are right as usual. Her way would actually be the better way, because it would allow her some breathign room to figure things out. In my update below, I talk about this last weekend. She was off work, but decided not to go with me and the kids to a baseball tournament my oldest was playing in. Anyway, we had the arguments last Thurs and Fri, and I basically told her I wanted her out ASAP. Well, Sat morning before we left, she came to me very soft spoken and brought up some things, basically backing things down. So, we left. She called me several times while we were gone, and when we got back, she told me that she missed being with me, missed being with the kids. So, do I think her moving out and leaving me and the kids would help her understand what she is missing again? Sure. Can I do it? Absolutely not...and neither can the kids. Unfortunately, this isnt two years ago, and my wife cannot be trusted with anything. Two years ago, I could have separated, and we backed things off (dating?...she even said that Monday.."Cant we just date?"). And worked on things.

But I have been betrayed. And then it was flaunted in front of me. And she tried to destroy me. Then she came back. And now, she says with her words and actions, that I am worth nothing to her. But see my update below for more of that. But the short and skinny is that I am not capable, as you eluded to, doing a separation. She goes out the door...we are finished!

On the counselor plan, you will see by the post below that we have instituted that. But do I trust that she will continue? No. Will she use it to try to find her way back? No. We had Steve Harley, and all she wanted to do was bring up why she cant, instead of seeking the right answers. Same thing happened in counseling yesterday. But again, read below my update. I fully do not trust her to make the effort, besides showing up, that it takes to move this forward. I really feel like in her current state of mind, that seeing a counselor or calling Steve is a waste of time...because she has no concept of the truth of what can be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of her plans have led to intense pain and suffering on your part, and NO REWARD OF ANY KIND for your efforts and suffering.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL...the best statement you made was this, in saying what I am feeling and why I am at my wits end here. No reward. No guilt or shame on her part for her abdication of her morals. Her family. Her faith. None. She still feels justified (see below).

Like you said, there are other ways to handle this. But as long as it is just me that is doing the work and believes in this, then I have just one course of action.

CSUE: We have been counseling with Steve. Then she stopped about 5 weeks ago, and wont go back. Again, no commitment on her part. I doubt she even knows the meaning of the word "commitment" anymore. I would love to continue with Steve, because he has a plan. But, she has to be willing to do it. As the old Star Wars saying goes...Do, or dont do...there is no try!. She neither does, nor even tries. Well, I cant say that fully, because just when I am ready to pull the plug, she does give me the look or attitude like "Wait a minute...maybe there is another way." I am not about threats, and do not ant to hold out divorce in order to pressure her. As a matter of fact, if I have to pressure her, then I dont want her. But see my update below for more insight.

Shugah: So true. But please understand, like I said in joint counseling yesterday, it isnt that I dont love her or wouldnt do anything for her. I have, and I would. It is that my love and efforts are falling on deaf ears and heart. Is it dead in her? I dont believe so. The Bible even says it isnt. But, SHE BELIEVES IT! And that is all that matters. So, it is at this point, where I have sustained maximum effort, and received nothing in return, that I have come to the edge here. As God-within-Kily can attest, sometimes the BS reaches that point and can go no further. And unfortunately, if I have indeed reached that point, then my wife will wake up to the truth one day...and I will be gone, with it too late for her to do anything about it. That is my biggest fear, especially since I know that what we have is still there. But see below what I am talkign about.

John: Thanks for the 2x4. I KNOW I need it. And I have been LBing lately. But, unfortunately, I am reaching the point where I dont care. My wife has expressed that I have changed, that I am attending to her needs. But she also says she doesnt feel "it," that she just cant give me what I need. I truly believe right now that there is no OM. I might be wrong, but I believe she is being honest. But, my love bank is now empty. Not that I dont love her, that I dont want this to work out. It is that I do not want to do one more thing for her, as long as she feels this way about me and our relationship. As JL said, I have shouldered this marriage for two years now. I am tired. And to have her come home, make no effort, and then say she doesnt feel it, burns me with rage. Well, maybe not rage...but definitely with extreme anger and disgust. Make no effort, and then expect to feel it? How stupid!

The present is the problem John. I am reacting now to her inattention and inability to do anything positive to help this move along. And she is stuck in the fact that she doesnt feel it, and that I am getting more upset by the day. So, it is the present. But the present keeps building no matter what I do. At best, if I stay the course, it just doesnt move. Because in order to move forward, it takes two. At worse, it is moving backward because I am refusing to hold this up anymore. It is on her shoulders now to make the next step. And her track record shows she is incapable of doing much right when it comes to marriage, relationships, or to me. Do I sound angry? Of course I am. I have given everything, and no results. I believe in the truth, and even with the OM gone, she still believes the lies of what she has done (she said yesterday that she feels justified for her "exit affair."). She believes in the lies of her supposed feelings towards me. I could combat the fog. But how can you combat someone with the inability to see the truth, or even want to see the truth?

You are right about the fear under the anger. And I have expressed these thoughts to her. Unfortunately, that doesnt mean much to her right now. As she said yesterday, the only guilt she has is for the kids if she leaves again, or guilt for how I will feel if she stays, since she cant (read...wont!) find what we have.

John, she has heard my heart. We have spent hours quietly talking. I have written letters and emails, telling her my feelings and fears. But she just doesnt see the truth. And my opinion is that she doesnt WANT to see the truth, because with the truth comes guilt, pain and hard work. Not things she really likes.

Believer: As I said above, it is weird for me too, because I seem to be able to handle others' issues better than my own. I do understand the SF/intimacy issue with women. But, after two years of very little in the SF department, and being the type of man I am, as Hope4Future pointed out, my ability to continue in this and receiving nothing is fast coming to an end. It was easier when she wasnt here, because I didnt have to see her, or be with her in bed, or have a nice evening, which would lead to intimacy...and then nothing! At least before, there was nothing here to tempt me. So, the conditions as they are cannot be "managed" much longer.

KeepMvn:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Solution....

LET HER GO!!! If you truly love her then why won't you let her go? If you have decided that you will divorce her if she goes, that is fine. That leaves her with the consequences of her decision..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I can do this. And I told her that she no longer has the time to do nothing. That it is get with it, or let me get on with my life. I know, a Selfish Demand (LB). This is not the problem. The problem is that most of the time, we are doing well. As you will see in my update, she says she doesnt see the truth of us, but then later outlines many cases where she does, and where she misses me when I am gone.

So, she is welcome to go. If I thought it was dead, I would do it myself. but I know it isnt. the problem with her going is that, I am afraid that she will actually wake up in weeks, months...and if she does, it will in fact be too late. Too late because the moment she steps out the door, I will pursue the divorce and can have it by the first of the year...thanks to living in Virginia. Too late because I will not allow her to come back again, sending our kids into another situation of mom coming and going. They will never trust us. Too late because I WILL shut the door on my heart with her, and move forward...as soon as the divorce is final. And I will not look back.

Unfortunately, I do believe as others have said, that her leaving might actually wake her up fully. But, her leaving will also kill the last of my resolve to this relationship. So, a sort of Catch 22.

Coffeman: I do understand all of this. It is KNOWING what we have, hearing her even say that she knows what we have...and still she walks away. Because I KNOW she will wake up. When, I dont know. Unfortunately, her leaving is not something I can or will deal with.

Orchid: Maybe she is having the A in her mind. Or another, with some fantasy future she might think is possible. I still do not believe there is an actual A going on. I could easily find out, and maybe I will. But that isnt really important right now. Because if she is, she's gone! And the fact that an A would cause problems between us, even if I didnt know, still leads her to be gone shortly. So, it doesnt really matter now.

I will put her out there on her own. but, when I do, there is no way back. Not again. I know, some will admonish me that I know she will get the truth this way, but I still wouldnt let her come back. Believe me, if yo ureally knew me, you would know that she is lucky she got this chance. I am not built this way. So, another shot would be out of the question.

Redhat: All certainly possible. And I may find out, just for history's sake. but again, this isnt what is motivating me. Whether she is not fulfilling her marriage vows because she is in an A, or if she isnt doing this because she doesnt feel it, is immaterial at this point. Both mean that she is gone.

Asylyne: Long time since I have heard from you. I hope things are well with you. You ALWAYS wield the biggest 2x4, so let me have it!

You are right! I do not want to go out like this. My lack of having needs met for two years has no led me to start thinking of a new life, if that is possible. I want my marriage, I believe in it. But I can no longer carry it by myself. And so, yes...I have done as you said, and tried to free myself of these thoughts.

The information came from someone who knows my situation. I confided in him that my wife is still not there for me, and that I am thinking of divorce. He then mentioned that this gal had been talking about me lately, and wondered how I was. So, there is no interest in pursuing things.

But you are right...even the appearance of impropriety is wrong, and I have policed up my actions, and even my thoughts to focus on the resolution or dissolution of my marriage.

My prayer life is really all I have right now. It is what is sustaining me. I keep waiting for God to fully wake her up, because she does see us at times, as you will read below. But you are right Asylyne...the last thing I want is to dishonor myself, my Savior, nor my marriage. So, I will stay focused on that until my wife wakes up, or I have papers in hand.

Thanks again, Asylyne. As always, you keep me in line!

Sparkle: Exactly!! As you saw from what I wrote above, it is when I start moving toward divorce, that she shows any sign of discomfort. So, I have shut down. No needs are going to be met. No effort on my part at all. I am no longer fighting her addiction to the OM. I am fighting her blindness to what is the truth of us. That may be a disrespectful judgment, but when you know the grass is green, and the other says it is red...well, what can you say...the truth is the truth.

23down: Unfortunately, you know all too well where I am at. Your post was right on. The problem is, she does show some signs sometimes that she sees it. But, no effort to try to find out. And I am out of energy to do it myself anymore.

jdmac: You have expressed right where I am at now. She has had the time and patience of me to do this slowly, at her pace. But she chose to do nothing. Now, I do not have the ability to do anything but save the marriage, or her to leave. She will shoulder the responsibility of moving this forward now...or she will shoulder the responsibility of destroying what she WILL later find out is the truth. I have to disagree wit hyou though JDMAC...ALL marriages can be saved. But it takes two, plus God. And at the basis, it takes commitment to do the right thing, to both going the extra mile to do what it takes. Together, that is possible. When it is just me, well, then it is just me. But, ALL marriages are salvageable. That is God's will. But He does give us free choice in life. Unfortunately, my wife so far has chosen not to follow Him, nor believe in His promises or healing. That, in the end, will be between her and Him.

litchfield: Thanks. I do know that everyone here appreciates the help I have tried to give. Believe me, I appreciate everyone here...more than you know! I am not afraid of being alone. It is fear of moving on, KNOWING what we have and KNOWING that she will eventually get it. But, even knowing these things, there is just so much in me that can endure this. I really am sick of this whole mess. I know I could have prevented this by being the husband I should have for the last few years before this happened. And I wish I could turn back the clock. But I cannot. But what we had (the positives) are still there. And we have learned so much thru this. But, I cannot educate her. I really believe that this comes down to her relationship with Jesus. She has been decived about EVERYTHING over the last two years. Remember, Satan got to Adam by deceiving Eve first. And he has gotten to me the same way. As our old pastor said this past spring about her, I think it is going to take a lot more pain from God before she is going o listen to Him, before she will believe the truth again. Unfortunately, I really have run our of time and energy.

Just J: Much that you said here about anger is true. Especially for her, and she has admitted as much. My anger is really frustration. Frustration that this intelligent and loving woman, who used to follow Jesus, cannot see the truth with it hanging right in front of her. Now, that sounds like fog. But I dont believe it is a fog at all. I believe that it is a barrier she has erected to protect her. She has made a lot of damage here. To cross that barrier, to lower it, means she has to face up to that damage, to clean it up. And I wonder whether she has that in her to do that. she is a "runner." When life gets tough, she runs. Always has. I believe, no...I KNOW...that she knows the truth. But she hides behind that wall, away from the truth, so she doesnt have to deal with it. And then she can say she doesnt see it or feel it...and be telling the truth!

On your ascetain about Christianity and other religions, I have to disagree. Almost all religions have creeds, etc that are good. I do not doubt that. But I do not live by a creed. Unlike religions in the world, Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship with a man...Jesus. I KNOW Him. I talk to Him, and He talks to me. That may sound weird to many, but this isnt the "invisible person" we talked to when we were kids. He does talk to me, in so many ways. Many times, right here on this board, through so many people here. So, the answer doesnt lie out in the world..it does lie with Jesus. My struggle, and my wife's struggle, ultimately comes down to that. I am trying to hold on. Christ allowed divorce due to the hardness of the betrayed spouse's heart. That the BS just couldnt take it anymore. But I know His will is for me to hold on, to salvage my marriage. But He will permit me to divorce. Unfortunately, I do feel my heart hardening towards my marriage. And I pray often that that would stop. I also pray for my wife, who also has had a personal relationship with Christ, but abandoned Him in favor of the OM. You see, I wasnt the only one abandoned here. She didnt reject me...she isnt rejecting me...she is rejecting Christ and the man that Christ brought into her life. She is rejecting His love, His counsel, and His promises. How long will He let this continue? I do not know. I just pray that He would come quickly and open her eyes. That He do WHATEVER it takes to wake her up.

There are people today that lie in hospital beds, paralyzed...and thank God for their paralysis. Because in their cases, it took that accident to wake them up and to meet Jesus one-on-one. And in context with eternity, what is 30 years paralyzed, if you can gain ever lasting life?

So, I do pray that the Lord does WHATEVER it takes to wake her up. I am scred for HER because I know that it is goingto take something big to get her attention. And the pain from that (just like the paralysis mentioned above) will last a lifetime. I wish there were an easier way, and I have tried to protect her from the consequences of her actions...but it appears that she is stubborn. And the Lord will have to do what He has to do, to recue her from herself.

Mimi: Ahhhh...time and patience. So true. But I feel empty. Unable to have much more patience, nor time. With effort on her part, even small effort, as well as commitment, then I have the patience of Job. And time doesnt matter. But to wake up 7 months after her return, when I have done exceptionally, and her tell me she feels worse about me then right before she sought the affair, leaves me with the feeling like I can expend not one more drop of effort on someone that does not appreciate it. So, I am struggling with what I should do, because I indeed do not want to sit still anymore.

SwH: All true. And I have rectified the other gal situation, even though there wasnt anything overt towards anyone contacting each other, orsending messages, or anything. Just as I spelled out above, wonderment on my part of what happened to her, and as this mutual friend said, she had the same feeling. She is pursuing her new life. It is doubtful, even if I divorce tomorrow, that we would end up seeing each other. She has someone in her life, as this friend said. And as Asylyne said, I have some healing to do. So, she really isnt the issue. I just raised the issue here because I dont want anyone thinking that I am fearful of not having someone. That isnt the case. My thoughts on the matter are that my fears are based on my wife blowing what we have...and that it is not dead...only for us to look each other in the eyes weeks or months later, with disappointment. Because we both knew!

Okay everyone, after that long mess I just wrote, the update...

Well, last week ended with me leaving for a baseball tourny Saturday. Friday night, I told her I was done with the current situation, that she could look for whomever for an attorney, and that the things we had discussed in regards to dividing things, the kids, etc.

On Sat morning, around 4am, I got up to pack the car, and my wife got up. She came to me, wanting to talk. She asked about selling one of the cars (it is getting in bad shape) that day, that we needed to "no matter what happens between us." Well, that led to a short discussion about us, and I reiterated that I dont want divorce, that i believe in us...but that I do not want to continue like this.

Well, she decided to stay in town and take care of things, and then come to where we were on Sunday to watch our son. But, she had car issues on Sat, and couldnt come up. She called me several times that day, and we talked briefly...again with me saying that I do want us!

We came home Sunday, with her pulling back again. Saying the things that set me off over the last two months. I pulled back from her, told her that I didnt want to talk, that I thought she had approached me Sat in order to save things...and that I was getting tired of this game. And then I stopped speaking to her. She needed a ride the next morning to take care of a drivers license issue, and came down to ask if I was going to take her. I told her absolutely not, that I was done with all of this, and that I wanted her to do what she had to to get the D moving. She then went off, called me some names, and told me I might as well take my ring off (she hasnt worn hers in two years). After I calmed down, I went up to our room, and told her that she was right...that I was still her husband, and would be such until she left me again. That I would take her, that nothing had changed...that my decision and belief in our marriage still was true. But that her time was up with sitting on the bench.

Monday morning, we went to DMV...and actually had a good morning together. She talked about this lawyer that would help us in mediation and putting the paperwork together if we went that way. But she didnt bring it up to discuss divorce. She brought it up because she said that she could see us going in there, and how we acted with each other (loving, attentive to each other, etc) and that the lawyers would be asking "Why are you two here?" Guys and gals...it is statements like this from her that tells me that she KNOWS the truth...that she just hides from it most of the time. I told her that it was true, that this is what I have been trying to make her see. That we are great together. That things are getting worse because we cannto continue to have a great friendship (which has been improving), and still trash all of the rest. That her inability to do anything for me, or protect me, is causing this.

Anyway, a good day overall. Next day, we were to do somethign together (both of us were off work), or to go see a movie with the kids. Well ,she wakes up that morning with a huge headache, stomachache, etc. We talk for awhile, and she realizes this is a stress headache. That she is getting high anxiety with me around. That when we are apart, she wishes she was with me. But when we are together, she is anxious, and actually gets sick from it. How do I protect her from this? Well, I tried, by just being there for her. I didnt talk. Just got her things when she needed them (she was in bed most of the day). I took the kids out so she could sleep. I took care of dinner. She later thanked me for standing by her during all of this. She also asked if I could set up an immediate appointment with a counselor we were seeing during our reconciliation back in the spring.

So, I set it up for Thursday. Wed, she worked. I got up at 4am and helped her get out the door. Again, we together shows that we do have it. We were great that morning. She calls from work that afternoon, and asks for Chinese food. It is waiting for her, and she is clearly appreciative. But very tired, and goes to work early.

She wakes up Thurs in one of her weird moods again. So, instead of letting her get the kids off (I do it most days...this was her day off), I stuck around and got it done, and then left her to relax alone at home. I left work early in the afternoon to meet her at the counselor's place. We went inside, and began to update her on everything from the last 7 months we hadnt seen her.

And my wife said the following. That if I asked her to leave today, that she wouldnt cry over it. That the only guilt she has over any of the last two years is now, i nthat if she leaves, what will it do to the kids...and, if she stays, that she cant give me what I want...a real wife.She talked about her anxiety around me. But then admitted that she isnt anxious all of the time. that we do have fun, and do hang out well together. She admitted that many things have improved. She also admitted that she believes that she does not have it in her to love me, nor meet my needs...especially SF and affection.

We spent most of the session just updating the counselor, and the counselor asking questions. Then the counselor set up another appointment for next week.

But the session left me worse off. Her talking in the negative, showing no hope nor commitment, just left me bankrupt. The counselor cannot help someone that doesnt want to be helped. And she doesnt right now. She did the same with Steve Harley.

So, I kind of blew up when we came home, later that evening. I told her again that I am feeling that she is just wasting everyones' time...that she is not serious about this. That we will go for weeks and months to the counselor, and she will say how she cant do this or that (as she has done with Steve Harley for weeks), and that I will still be right where I am at.

And I again reiterated that if she cannot acknowledge the truth of her feelings toward me, and she cant make the commitment...that if she feels even after everything, that she could leave righ now without even crying...then I want her to call the attorney and set up the appointment immediately. That I want the D to fly through the courts.

I told her, as I am telling all of you, that the reason I am so hurt and angry is that she is blowing a great thing. We have shown it. She has seen us together. She admitted it, with ehr story about what the lawyers will think about us. But, with no commitment, no effort, and no needs being met, all of this is academic.

I am now at the point that some stated above...she needs to poop, or get off the pot.

So, that is the long, long update. I do appreciate everyone helping me. You all are in my hear, and my prayers.

In His arms.

I've been wondering and worrying about what was going on!

Her statements are just as foggy as ever. She admits she misses you, but then turns around and says she can't ever love you. She's wrong. But I can't judge...I did and said the same things.

It's an emotional stand still....and you just feel so stuck. For me it took having the space away from the stress of figuring it out...it took the pressure of the decision to be off (we decided we would divorce, the decision was made) before I realized that I'd made the wrong one.

She's going to have some major issues to deal with regardless of whether or not you're in the picture. But it's going to get increasingly harder and harder for her to deal with those issues as the pressure of 'poop or get off the pot' builds. My guess is she'll choose to run. She'll regret it, but it's likely what she'll do.

Take care of yourself MM...your road ahead isn't nearly as dark as hers is.

H4F,

Unfortunately, I believe you are right. Which further drains my resolve.

In His arms.

MM,

I think the problem is YOU. I am sorry to sound so harsh but the real sticking point is you. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, she is welcome to go. If I thought it was dead, I would do it myself. but I know it isnt. the problem with her going is that, I am afraid that she will actually wake up in weeks, months...and if she does, it will in fact be too late. Too late because the moment she steps out the door, I will pursue the divorce and can have it by the first of the year...thanks to living in Virginia. Too late because I will not allow her to come back again, sending our kids into another situation of mom coming and going. They will never trust us. Too late because I WILL shut the door on my heart with her, and move forward...as soon as the divorce is final. And I will not look back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now if I quoted this and told you she told me this would you believe me? You should. You are sounding just like her. You don't get it yet.

You need to let her go, but when you do YOU need to have the strength of your religion and PERMIT the POSSIBLITY that God will indeed work on her and if he does you won't be foolish enough to turn her and his work away.

You are right she will need to do many things she seems unwilling to do, but if you two separate and God works through her, she will come back ready and willing to make it work. You will know IF you give the possibility of this happening a chance.

MM, don't harden your heart. Let her go, but do it in love and with the knowledge that it is POSSIBLE for her to come back IF it is something she wants and will make an effort toward. You don't have to guarentee anything, and if life leads you to a new relationship then it is too late. But, MM do better than she has, show the strength of your faith, and don't harden your heart, for you are hardening it to HIS plan.

What you may not realize is that all of this may be for YOU, not your W. She may be the instrument for you. I have no way of knowing but I do know you don't either.

Hope4 has been there, done that and because her H left his heart open, she came back. I would bet that she came back as a much better person and W, and she is happy for her decisions and so is her H.

MM, allow that chance in your life even as you move along it. Do NOT slam that door if she moves out. Yes, proceed with the D if that is your wish, but Harley strongly suggests that even a D should be POJA'd. However, don't make a decision or draw a line in the sand when none is required. Soon enough you will know the right thing to do and it won't require that you have hardened your heart or locked your heart to your W. Life may well offer you better options and you simply take them without anger or fear.

MM, please think about this. Life is tough enough without having a hard heart. I will quote you something my father told me years ago and it applies to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't make an enemy out of her.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And my opinion is that she doesnt WANT to see the truth, because with the truth comes guilt, pain and hard work. Not things she really likes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another DJ - and your post is loaded with them, including many you said directly to her. And you are educating her. What happened to your committment to stop doing that? And, I see you making heroic efforts for her - why? What are you getting back? That is what is causing your resentment. Your problem is that you are still in Plan A, and NO ONE can do that indefinitely. You are suffering from "giver snap". Time to negotiate for EVERYTHING. But that is completely tangential to my main point about that quote, which is this:

Do you have any idea how badly she has damaged herself through her own actions? Her spirit, her very soul? Do you understand how broken she really is, that she can say what she says?

My wife is a practicing Christian, grew up on foreign mission fields, born again at age 5, rededicated and baptized at age 14, who has a personal relationship with Jesus, and in fact it was Jesus who finally convinced her to come clean with me and end the affair. The day my wife confesseed her affair to me, she told me: “We have a good marriage. It wasn’t about you, it wasn’t about him and it wasn’t about sex.” Those statements seemed ludicrous to me. I didn’t understand how she could really believe what she had just said.

Today, they seem ludicrous to her. But for many MONTHS after DDay, they did not. When you twist yourself that badly, it takes time to unwind, and the unwinding is exceedingly painful. When your wife sees the truth, it will hurt her more than you are hurting. If you don't believe me - would you trade places with her? You wouldn't, would you?...Because you can't even imagine what it would be like to be that spiritually damaged, can you? But if you could switch places, so you could avoiding the pain you have gone through so far, and will continue to feel for some time, and in addition, have the "pleasure" of the affair relationship, it would not be worth it, would it? Not if you had to give up your relationship with Christ, your integrity, your dreams, not to mention hurt your children and your spouse, however bad she might be. In fact, the idea is laughable, isn't it? It would be WAY too high a price to pay. Death would be better than what your wife has gone through/is going through right now, and eternal death may be the result. (OK, maybe not, but I am not going to get in to whether one can lose their salvation or not - just ignore the last phrase).

And, what would be the worst part? The hardest to face? What you have done to your children, right? Nope - what you have done to your spouse and your God. Those are the things she can't face yet. Because they are the most painful. Remember when she minimized what the children were going through? She sees that now. The spouse part, the God part, those will take time.

What your wife needs now is to be gently coaxed out of the hell-hole she has dug herself into. You need to be Christ's representative to her - calling gently, but never demanding - like how God treats us. She has opened the door of her hell-hole, but she really hasn't come out yet. Show her that it is safe out there with you. Consider yourself divorced if need be, and start back at the lowest levels of intimacy, like back when you were dating. (Did you have sex before marriage? If so, re-set your thinking, and go through a new courtship done right. Don't even THINK about sex with her until she is ready to be married again.)

This whole thing about her being emotionally and spiritually twisted may be a DJ about her on my part, but I know she needs safety first from you. No demands, no AO's, no DJ's!!!!! Don't provide for her little needs as her husband, if you can't do it without AO's. Avoiding the AO's is much, much more important than getting Chinese for dinner. Avoiding DJ's is more important than helping her get the kids off to school. Somewhere inside her she is so guilty that she doesn't WANT you to succeed in coaxing her out, because she would have to face her demons, and because mercy is UNFAIR (according to Satan). Don't let that part of her defeat you. Keep that other part, the part that recognizes the truth, talking to you. Make yourself safe for her.

Don't do it for her, either, because she does not yet appreciate it. Do it for yourself and for God and for your kids.

<small>[ November 14, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

MM:

Holy Cow.

I've been all over the place in trying 2 come up with a reply 2 post 2 this thread, which I only just read 2day.

Why? Because the last times I've posted 2 you, I felt pretty ignored. Kind of like Mrs MM sounds like she feels - only we're hearing "her account" 2nd hand, and that's of little use.

For2nately for me, some amazing replies have come down the pike. At least now I know why I can't finish framing that 5000 sq ft house I'm building - there's not a 2x4 in sight! (I'm not really framing a house...)

There have been so many great, very, very insightful replies 2 you, MM. I won't repeat their points. I support the bulk of them 100%.

How about changing the subject of your posts? No, I don't mean something other than recovery. I mean stop talking about, speculating about, getting feedback about the DAMNED DRAMA you spend so many pages spelling out 2 us in such gory detail. So little of it is *directly* related 2 YOU and how YOU are doing. ALL of it is related 2 what you THINK your W is thinking and doing, played out in page after page after page of that DAMNED DRAMA.

Face it, MM, you're bashing your FWW. If you read this far, would you be willing 2 try an experiment for ol' 2long? ...good.

Here you go: From now on, post only about what's going on in your mind about YOU, how YOU are doing, what you believe in (if you like). Mainly, what I'm after here is stuff about reflecting YOU are doing about YOUR contribution 2 your W's dissatisfaction with your M.

I see so much of your lack of progress since April or so in my own sitch, which I KNOW was due 2 my own pig-headedness, which is pretty mild compared 2 yours (sorry for the DJ). And my W never left. I, 2, have believed that if my W were 2 leave now for even a trial separation, that it would hurt our recovery more than help it. But I have also had 2 realize that it's ME just as much, if not more, at "fault" (the wrong word, but you know what I mean) for our stalemates as her being so recently out of the fog. I'm doing inner soul-searching now like never before, even since D-day, because I KNOW that it's the only thing that's going 2 really keep us on track for a better M.

Now, I've said more than I promised I would again about my speculation of what my W may or may not be thinking or doing. No more. You need 2 do that 2.

Tell us about MM. What can we do 2 help YOU. Let your W help herself (and I do believe she made a giant step forward when she was honest with you - you just reacted again, instead of responding). Your problems are yours. Own them. Address them. Forget about hers, and particularlly forget about your PERCEPTION of HER thinking. Assume your assumptions are wrong.

...and get above that DAMNED DRAMA.

♥2long

Wow, John & J.L. Can I frame what you just wrote?

In these situations...and especially after they have lingered on and on and on...we tend to grip with all our might to THE answer...THE solution..THE decision. Our focus gets narrowed then, because truth be told we never really know what lies ahead. But I understand the reasoning...the floundering is painful and the lack of resolution is MADDENING. After a while we say, that's that...I'm doing X&Y and if that doesn't work it's Z...and that's my final answer. I say "we" because that thought process is much the same for the WS.

The truth is there are many possible outcomes to your situation. Many things could come up out of the blue that you didn't expect. No one knows the future. But you've wrapped your mind around your solution and you've got it gripped...no if's and's or butt's. It's a protection mechanism. Loosen the grip...widen your focus. I'm not saying you should allow her to move or should give her the impression there MIGHT be an open door to her again...I'm just saying that IN YOUR MIND you might take a longer look at the reality of future possibilities.

I've got a great book on stress that I'm bound and determined to post some quotes off of. I think it applies to so many situations on this board. I'll make an extra effort to get that accomplished this weekend. In the meantime...hang in there MM.

Mr.mortar

How are you doing??

I have started several times too post to you...and each time am not sure what I want to say..

Each post I attempt takes a different path...and none have felt right...
not that that is a reflection of your situation...but a reflection of my empty headedness...
if God decides to thump me with the wisdom wand..I will let you know.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I pray you are well..
you and your family are in my prayers...

ARK

MM,

Sorry you are in so much pain. You are in my prayers.

I was just wondering if your W has ever had IC? I'm not a psychiatrist, but it sounds like she's depressed. That could affect her desire for SF.

At the risk of sounding like a pill pusher, I just wanted to suggest that meds might really help at a time like this, especially if her anxiety is making her sick enough to stay in bed all day!

You two have been through a lot, and it's understandable that you feel defeated. It sounds like you both keep going back and forth with your feelings.

I am the WS in my M, and I understand your wife's wanting to take a "time out," which I know is unacceptable to the BS - not only the BS's on this board, but to my own BS as well.

My own DDay was 15 months ago, and my H and I have been working really hard on our M, but we also have been getting more and more burned out, and also more angry at times. One step forward, two steps back.

I feel like your W does sometimes - that I just want to separate and get away from the disappointment and fighting for a while to be able to think, but my H says the same thing you do. If I leave, it's over.

I don't want to contact OM, and I don't want to be with OM. Sometimes I think a separation might help my H and I see if we really want to be together.

I guess what I'm wondering is if it is possible that your W could be considering a "time out," but not really want to end the M, or see the OM.

To BS's, that might sound like "trying to find herself," which is a touchy subject, but it is hard to think clearly while being in such an emotional state all the time, overwhelmed by confusion, anger, and anxiety. I know it's hard for the BS, too.

Honestly, I can see both sides of the issue, and I don't profess to know what the answer is. I just pray that whatever is best for you and your family is what happens. God bless.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Well, thanks for the post. I just spent 40 mintues typing a response, and then my computer went down before I could post it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Typical for the life I am leading right now...nothing but frustration!

JL: You are right...it is me! But we discussed this back in January. I am not built this way. As a matter of fact, it has taken everything I have to do what I have...because this is not my way. Someone tell me they hate me, that they dont want to be with me...someone betray me, hurting me, herself and my kids...believe me, this isnt what Mortarman would do. At the worst, I would make it my mission in life to make sure they got what they "deserved." At the best, I would just walk away...not looking back EVER!

But I overcame all of that, due to my Lord, and my love for my wife and kids. But unfortunately, my heart is hardening. And even all of that now is not enough to keep me from pulling away.

You're right...it will be protecting myself. I admit this. But, my worst enemy could not have done to me what she has done, and what she is about to do. If my worst enemy would do this, dont you think I should protect myself? Of course. And after that enemy has stopped, and then reached out their hand asking for forgiveness, I know I am supposed to give it. But would I just forgive, or would I allow them back into my life, with the keys to everything? No, I would not!

And thus, my wife has done far worse than anyone ever has or will, to me. And to her, and my kids. I have given her everything, a chance at getting her life back (but even better)...with no apology even. And she has taken that, and has thrown it back in my face due to her making no effort toward recovery or seeing the truth. And I am supposed to continue in this? Or, if she ends this for good (divorce), I am supposed to let her back in months...years...later, when she really does pull her head out? I am afraid that is not in me. I have given my best for her, for God and for my kids. It is all I have. If it isnt good enough now, unfortunately, it will be unavailable later.

You're right. All of this may be about me. God may be using this to help me grow. I have already grown. But, I am not being fed...not in awhile. I am hungry and tired. I am hardening. I have prayed and asked for His wisdom in this, to show me the way. But so far, the way has been to sit still and accept the abuse of my wife.

Remember what I told you about God telling me in Bosnia. He told me to 1. forget about my wife, 2. get back to my first love (Him), and 3. die for my wife. JL, I feel like I have died for her. And the last nails in that coffin will be put in with the signing of the paperwork.

I do not want to hang around another 6 months while she "maybe" works things out, only to find at the end of the six months that everything I did for her and us, meant nothing. I do not have it in me anymore.

There is a reason in my life, that once I dated someone and we broke up, that we NEVER got back together again...not even once. Sure, I had the opportunities. I had a few phonecalls from ex's, asking to meet. But there was no way possible.

Since I am married to my wife, I have given everything to her and for her. But, should she no longer be my wife, then I will owe her nothing...and be obligated to nothing. She will be nobody in my life, save for being the mother of my children.

While I love her immensely, and probably always will, I have not gone thru all of this for her. She hasnt, and doesnt deserve what I have done! I have done this for me, for God...and to a lesser extent, for my kids. I have done this for me because I made a commitment to myself, to God, to my wife, to my future kids...to love, honor and cherish...for better or worse. But she takes the marriage away, then those vows, that commitment, no longer exist. And without that commitment, no matter how much I love her...she has no chance with me! She neither deserves it, nor am I capable of giving it.

John: I know my posts are loaded with DJs. Most of them havent been said to my wife...it has just been me venting here. But even the DJs I have said to my wife...well, I am reaching the point where I just dont care. I am bankrupt in the love bank. I believe you are right in what you said abotu my wife. But that doesnt change what I just said to JL. That I do still love her...that she deserves nothin I have done, nor any part of me. That my commitment to my vows, my God and my children has made it possible for her to return. But, that commitment is waning, as my heart hardens and I begin to want the "out" God has given to me.

I have tried to avoid DJs. But I really have found it impossible to do now. Well, not impossible. I have now gone to a sort of Plan B silence. She asks questions, I respectfully answer them. Or if she asks me to do something, I do. But, I no longer am engaging in conversation with her, as of last week. I am no longer massaging her feet when she comes home from work, or meeting any other need of hers. And because of that, I have actually felt my Taker calm down. Sure, I am still not getting my needs met. But I am also not writing any "checks" either, out of my love bank. So, I have just gone silent.

What will that do to the situation. Well, I do know it has and will calm things down. Her and my anxiety levels will go down. But I also believe that it will just lead to months of stalemate, just "existing" with each other until one of us tires of it, or some guy comes along that makes her want to move forward with divorce because he wants her needs met. I dont know, I would be interested on what anyone thinks about that.

2Long: My old friend! Yes, you are right. I need to focus on me. I think you should have noticed on what I posted above, that I am trying to do that. How am I doing, what am I feeling? Well, I think it is obvious. How have I contributed to her dissatisfaction? I have written about my errors and sins ad nauseum on here, especially the ones that led up to the A. But now, I dont know. I have shown her many changes. I have committed wholeheartedly to her and the marriage. I have tried to meet every need. Have I been perfect? No. But, except for lately, for the first 5 months she was home, I stayed away from LBing. I did a very good job. And then to find out that my best efforts make her feel WORSE about me! 2Long, I really dont know how I could have done any better.

I am trying to find my way thru this. I know, especially now, that I cannot eduacate or control my wife. She will do what she will do. But it is me now, having given my best, who feels like moving on. To get the best given to me also. I am increasingly feeling that I will not get that with my wife again. She did for so long. She seems incapable now. So, I really want now to move on with my life, with or without her. Many decisions I would make with her together, I wouldnt make apart. And I am about to retire from the military, we need a new house, etc...and I need her help in this (POJA) if we are together. But my house, career choices, etc will be MUCH different if we were to divorce. And many of these decisions I MUST make shortly. I no longer have the ability to wait. If I make decisions on my own, and go with what we both would want...and she still leaves...then I am stuck single in a life that I dont want if we are divorced. If I chose the way I would go if we are divorced, and she pulls her head out...then she is stuck in a life that she wont want, and probably she will demand I change the job, house location, etc.

I am at a crossroads, as the title says. I have three choices...sit still, go left, or go right. My decision is based on what her and I are doing. I can no longer sit still. And whatever choice I make, if she does the opposite, then I will have chosen incorrectly.

That is why I told JL above that if I go left, the way I would if I was single, I will burn the bridge behind me. Because I know if she tried to come back later, she will want us to turn around and go the direction (right) that I would have chosen if we were together. And I wont be able to do that then. I will not be able to give up my new life for her...a person who is no longer my wife. By burning the bridge, I can move forward with confidence, knowing there is only one way now...forward!

AMM: I agree!

H4F: You are right. And my focus is still wide. But I also know, at least with me, that certain decisions in life cause us to take the narrow road. That we cant take it back. And once the ink dries on divorce papers, that is that. Up until that point, all things are possible with my wife and I. But, the time has come to move forward, one way or another. I am not going to sit still anymore, even if that means losing everything.

I very much appreciate everyone here. These boards are for all of us. I have loved helping others. And as you can see, I have needed you also.

I am struggling thru this latest development. As I said to some in Plan B right now, "wait until you get to recovery...it is much harder." And this is so true. I continue to pray for strength and wisdom.

I have not given up so much as I have now put this entirely in God's hands, and put the responsibility on my wife's shoulders.

We will see what happens. Please continue to post, as this is and has been helping me more than you know.

In His arms.

Rose,

Yes, she has been in counseling before. For depression when she was 16, and several times over our marriage. But not during or since the A. She has gone to MC, but has made n oreal effort during MC.

She has used a lot of medication over the past two years to overcome her anxiety. it has worked at time. Right now, she is no longer on anything...and it is doubtful I could get her on anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess what I'm wondering is if it is possible that your W could be considering a "time out," but not really want to end the M, or see the OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. Absolutely. I believe this may be true, actually. But our fighting isnt really fighting. It is me trying to have a relationship with her, and her not wanting to do anything because she doesnt feel it. I really have tried to meet all her needs, to go way beyond halfway in this. So, her being anxious isnt because I am doing anything necessarily wrong. It is that she feels she cant give me what she used to...give me what I need.

Thank you for your prayers, and your insight as a FWS. It is very helpful. I am just not sure I have it in me to go the separation route, even if it is true that she needs the time to just be quiet, and sort thru things.

In His arms.

Mortarman -- Don't have anything to add, except to say that my prayers are with you.

I read the posters like John & JL, and they seem right. And I read you, and you have so much self-knowledge, and you seem right. And Rose seems right. Then I think you can't all be right -- and that's right too!

Awful situation -- we'll leave it in His hands.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

I also am against separation because of the distinct possibility that the BS will one day wake up and say to him/herself 'Hey I like my life better without him/her. I'm getting divorced' when lo and behold that is the same day the WS wakes up and says to him/herself 'What a fool I've been, I do love my BS and I miss him/her terribly. I'm going to rebuild my marriage'.

Hope, like trust, is very hard to get back once it leaves your heart.

MM:

"I have not given up so much as I have now put this entirely in God's hands, and put the responsibility on my wife's shoulders."

I agree with your putting your sitch in God's hands (even though I'm not religious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), but I don't agree with putting responsibility on your W's shoulders. At least, not YOU putting responsibility on her shoulders. That's for her God and her 2 decide/learn what's appropriate. Again, worry about you, not her. Take responsibility entirely for your behavior. I think if you reconsider some of the suggestions you got regarding the gal you were seeing before your W decided 2 come home, you'd see what I think I'm after here. Just like it's hard for you 2 see what having this other gal "waiting in the wings" (however miniscule those wings might really be), it may be that your vents 2 us and your DJs 2 her are outward expressions of the overall "tone" you bring 2 your interactions with her. Your body language, your "expectations" (have you ever *felt* someone's expectations, even when nobody has said anything? I sure have!), and how they're affecting HER. Now, they may not be intentional on YOUR part, and believe me I know they're probably misinterpreted or blown out of proportion on HER part... ...but that's the na2re of miscommunication. And if you're not even having conversations with her when you're 2gether, the assmptions you're both making about what the other is thinking are going 2 be all over the planet. I know, I lived that kind of drama for far 2long. I still have a tendency, but I'm getting better.

I think I've grown, 2. I know I have a lot of growing yet 2 do. And that's another point. Whether our M's are saved or not, the growing must continue. No alternatives.

I'd still like 2 hear about YOU, not her so much anymore... ...unless you can suggest that she participate on the boards, 2. It would be better, though, if she'd get counseling.

-ol' 2long

MM,

I think you are slightly missing what I am saying. So let me start by quoting you </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That is why I told JL above that if I go left, the way I would if I was single, I will burn the bridge behind me. Because I know if she tried to come back later, she will want us to turn around and go the direction (right) that I would have chosen if we were together. And I wont be able to do that then. I will not be able to give up my new life for her...a person who is no longer my wife. By burning the bridge, I can move forward with confidence, knowing there is only one way now...forward!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, my point is leave your heart open as you make decisions. If she decides to come back, it will have to be TO YOU and your life. She will have to make YOU happy to have her in YOUR life again. I am not saying that you will abuse this or force her to live other than she chooses. I am saying if she decides to come back it will be to YOUR life.

Now let us speculate that she comes back to YOUR life, and you are both very happy and you regain your trust in her, THEN you might consider living in a different fashion or place than you have chosen. But, my comment is to leave your heart OPEN to her coming to you, and committing to you.

You are putting too many road blocks up and there is no need. It may be that she will NEVER want to come back,so what was the use of hardening you heart?? It may be that she will only come back under HER terms, and you will not need to harden your heart because you have decided that enough is enough. BUT what if she comes back,and what she wants is to be with you, the children, and in YOUR life, THEN a hardened heart will hurt you and her.

I see NO tactical or strategic advantage to having a hardened heart, and neither does your lord. I am NOT saying keep giving her everything she wants or anything at all, but I am saying keep your heart open, keep it loving, and still do what you have to do.

We all have or will lose loved ones in our life, either through death or circumstances such as yours. Griefing is good, a loving heart is better, and a hard heart based on a lose will poison you and your future.

MM, relax, love her, enjoy her while she is there, and if she wants to leave, let her leave with love. Then move on with your life. Yes, you have been hurt, but I KNOW you have the strength to have a loving heart, and open heart and STILL do what is necessary. In this case LET HER GO, if that is what she wants. She will have to come back to YOU in YOUR situation if she ever wants to enter your heart again. SHe will have much to prove and demonstrate, and most importantly she will have had to grow and accept ALOT for her to do this.

So MM, what you are seeing is one of the natural outcomes of this marriage. It is not a cause for a hard heart. It should be a cause for a giving, accepting, loving heart. You will transistion into your new life much easier, IF you don't have to fight yourself.

Please think about this. What I am suggesting is a POWERFUL thing, and would be the best for you and your children, no matter what your W decides to do.

God Bless,

JL

PS: The military equivalent of what I am saying is the Marshall plan. Most people don't realize that it was unique in the annuals of history and has led to the best outcome. Consider how WWI ended and how effective the hard hearts were in winning the "war to end all wars". I am asking you for a Marshall plan sort of approach.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Maybe it is not so much a hardening of MM's heart as much of his losing all hope for her to want to be his W.

Coffeeman,

I do see he is losing hope. But, I think if anyone could understand what I am trying to say it would be you. Perhaps you can phrase it better to MM. But, it seems to me that having an open heart, and yes even a loving heart would be easier on him, no matter what happens with his W. Yours eventually came around via a lot of counseling and by that time you had moved on.

I don't know but I suspect that you hold no hatred of her now, if you ever did, but that door is closed.

I am not telling MM to keep the door open indefinitely, but let life close it if that happens. Coffeeman, yours closed when you met someone who filled your life and you wanted and did marry. That I think is how it should be with MM.

Whether he has hope or not, his W MAY get it together if they separate and want to make things right. I think he would be foolish to not allow that possibility to exist until life finds a way to close the door.

What do you think?

JL

Well, did it again. Responded to Coffeeman and JL...and jsut as I posted, I lost everything. like my frustration level needs to get any higher. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Coffeman may have a point there. But let me elaborate.

JL: I hear what you are saying, and you are right. IF....IF...IF my wife, after divorce, could show me (and I hadnt met someone else) that her head had left where it is right now, and that she was willing to be the wife she should be, then yes, I would probably take her back.

But there is a HUGE problem. And this problem is the reason why I say it would be impossible after divorce.

Once divorce happens, then my wife is a non-entity, save for the kids and kid issues. I will want to have nothing to do with her, especially one-on-one. I will begin to move on with my life. Now, let's say I still havent met someone. And she does pull her head out. How am I gonna know that?

You see, unless I KNOW that this has happened and she is committed to me, then I wouldnt even consider dating/remarrying her.

But, if I am having NC with her, except for the kids, then how in the world would she be able to show and prove to me that THIS TIME, she actually has regained herself?

Now, I can hear it...that I will have to give her the time. But maybe she is playing games. Maybe she is just lonely. Whatever. Maybe she hasnt pulled her head out, but is just saying the right things. Well, I will be divorced from her. I will not want to expend one ounce of love or energy on a woman like she has been the last two years. So, how will I know for sure that she isnt that woman anymore, that she is the woman I married and love? Of course, she will need to show me. But how can she show me when I will not allow her to abuse me again? A very BIG Catch 22.

You se, I can see her coming to me and saying "Can we talk?" And I will know that she wants to talk about us. About a possible future again. Well, if I allow that talk to happen, if I allow some conversations, dating, etc to happen, and I dont KNOW that she actually means all of this, then I have allowed her to possibly abuse me again. And I swear to anyone listening...once divorced, she will NEVER abuse me again! I cannot, and will not, allow it.

So, that is why I say it is impossible, that the bar for her reurn this next time will be higher, so high that it is literally impossible for her to jump it. She will have to find a way to make me KNOW that she is for real, and do so through NC. Because until I know it isnt this selfish woman that she is now, I cannot allow her to take that chance with my heart again. Not possible.

So, help me here. How is it possible for her to show me, but at the same time I protect myself and not allow the abuser back in? I do not see how that is possible.

On hardening my heart, it does say God hates divorce, but will permit a BS to divorce their WS due to the hardness in their heart. So, the grounds for divorce isnt just adultery, it is also a hardness in the BS's heart. So, until I have my divroce, my heart will not be hard to my wife. But, if I have divorced, you can count on the fact that my heart has hardened to her. Otherwise, I would have never gotten the divorce.

I am not trying to be argumentative in any of this. I am truly confused right now and appreciate your help. I am just not sure it is possible for her to do this, once divorce happens.

I am her husband until divorce. We are just parents once the divorce is final. To get back to being one flesh again, the impossible has to happen.

In His arms.

Dear MM:

I've been following your story all along and let me just say:

YOU'RE THINKING TOO MUCH!

IF you divorce and are having nothing to do with your wife and you start dating or you don't start dating, I think your heart will heal.

With a healed heart I think your outlook on your W will take on a different view. She won't be hurting you as much and it will be harder for her to hurt you if she isn't around as much. Thus, her talks with you won't be as painful as they are now. And you might be able to see her in a different light if she isn't around all the time.

You need your glasses prescription changed - you are having trouble seeing what's up close - you need to focus on the distance. Once you do that it will be easier to see her and a future.

Of course, these are all BIG if's. They might not happen.
DB

MM,

Permit me to rephrase "dazed blonds" very good statement, quoting from a football coach who responded to me "but coach I thought you said..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't think boy, you'll weaken the club. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The real point of my response is you are posing your problem as a binary problem. I know you are being honest in your feelings and your expected feelings, but you are casting your decision making in a binary way: yes/no, she loves me/she loves me not, she is my wife therefore worthy of consideration/ she is NOT my wife therefore NOT worthy of my consideration.

Let me address a few of your comments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, help me here. How is it possible for her to show me, but at the same time I protect myself and not allow the abuser back in? I do not see how that is possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! MM here you have posed the essence of your faith. You do NOT need to protect yourself, that is where you are failing. She has done all she can do and YOU are still standing, you are even standing for your marriage. You don't need to protect yourself from her. THat is why I am yacking at you about the hard heart. YOu will be hurt, you will be in pain, when the marriage ends (if it comes to that), but you will be stronger, your faith will be stronger, you will have a much better sense of what a good marriage and relationship is, you will understand your needs better and those of any woman in your life.

With that knowledge how can she hurt you? She will either meet your needs or she will not, she will try or she won't, and if she does try that does not mean that you will fall in love with her and want her for a wife. BUT, it is possible that she may learn what you have learned, but it may take something more dramatic for her to see it. What if she learns as you have and now knows who to meet your needs and further wants to? You miss out.

MM, the resolution to the quandry is that you do not need protecting from her. You do NOT have to harden your heart or go to no contact with her. You are not trying to change her or woo her, or make her fall in love with you. As you say, she would NOT be your W. She is just another human being that happened to have your children and who has made some bad decisions. AND THEY HURT YOU. But, don't forget they hurt your children and her. Do you expect your children to write her off? Of course you don't.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On hardening my heart, it does say God hates divorce, but will permit a BS to divorce their WS due to the hardness in their heart. So, the grounds for divorce isnt just adultery, it is also a hardness in the BS's heart. So, until I have my divroce, my heart will not be hard to my wife. But, if I have divorced, you can count on the fact that my heart has hardened to her. Otherwise, I would have never gotten the divorce.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need for the hard heart. If she never comes around then you can have an open and loving heart and it will make no difference. If she does come around then it might make a positive difference to YOU. MM, you are missing something about forgiveness, it doesn't mean you have to take her back. It doesn't mean you have forgotten, but it does mean your heart is NOT hard. That life is full of chances and she may be part of them.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not trying to be argumentative in any of this. I am truly confused right now and appreciate your help. I am just not sure it is possible for her to do this, once divorce happens.

I am her husband until divorce. We are just parents once the divorce is final. To get back to being one flesh again, the impossible has to happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! the impossible to YOUR mind. I keep reminding of your religion becuase within it "all things are possible". You don't have to help or hinder the process, I am just saying that you should and could be open to the process. You are right you are just parents, but you do have a history, some parts good, and some parts bad.

MM, please understand, when I say don't harden your heart, don't close her out. I am not doing this for HER benefit but for YOURS. Your hard heart will make future relationships with or without your W very difficult. It will make you a different father than you should be. It will show through and teach your children lessons you don't want them to learn. Even with an open and loving heart, and even if she decides to try, that does NOT mean you should take her back. It means you consider it. Would it be best for me? CAn I trust her enough? Will it be in her best interests? How about the children?

All of these questions. MM I do not know your future, but I do know that life has an interesting way of presenting us with choices and options. Don't reduce your options. You will change and so will she. Will it be for the better? Could it bring you together? Will you find someone far better to be your spouse and the mother of your children when you have them? I do not know. I do know life has a funny way of turning tables and involving people in our lives that one would never guess.

So, consider that this issues is NOT a yes/no issue. It is a yes/no/definitely maybe sort of thing, and it is the "definite maybe's" in life that make it an adventure.

Interestingly, I am NOT even suggesting that you stay "friends" with your W. Frankly, I believe in the short run that would be harder to do, than NOT hardening your heart. Just give life a chance MM, that is all I am asking. You will get the answers to all of your questions in due time. So don't draw any lines in the sand right now. Don't burn bridges right now. Just forgive, and move on with your life, but allow life to double back and offer you another option. When/if it does THEN make your decision.

So don't keep her out, because she will want to be out anyway. Don't shut her out, because unless things change she will shut herself out. Don't be hard, because becoming happy and recovering from this will be hard enough. Simply, be a good and generous man to her, to anyone else in your life, and most of all to yourself.

Nothing may ever come of this, but NOT having a hard heart will protect you just as much AND it will allow you to enjoy your life much better.

I am saying all of this for YOU, not her.

God Bless,

JL

MM: There have been a lot of times when I have prayed about my options, telling God "I want option A, not option B. But, Your will be done." There have been a BUNCH of times when I got option C.

I think that is part of what JL is saying. God is awesome. Don't try to put Him in a box.

MM, I am so new at this that I am not in a position to give advice to you. But, I will pray for you.

CAUTION!!! VERY LARGE 2X4 COMING AT YA!!!!!

MM,
I love ya, bro. I think you are one of the strongest, most logical, committed, intelligent christian men on these boards.........buuuuuuuuut............
I gotta say these few things:

Sit down and listen up............
THERE'S WAY TOO MUCH "WHAT ABOUT ME, WHAT ABOUT ME?!?!?!" whining going on in your posts. Please allow me to write these things to you. After this, I'll sit back down, and watch and listen without so much as a peep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I gotta get this stuff off my chest:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

But I overcame all of that, due to my Lord, and my love for my wife and kids. But unfortunately, my heart is hardening. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. Glory be to MM!!! What a great guy, what a great CHRISTIAN MAN!!! GOD SURE IS "LUCKY" TO HAVE YOU AROUND!!! Sounds pretty prideful to me. God better "watch out" cause once MM's heart is hardened, welllll, then!!!!!! That's the end of it!!!!!!!! SORRRRRRRRRRRRRRY, GOD!!! Can't do it YOUR way now!!! You took too long............my heart is hard now...........you missed your shot at saving THIS marriage!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> my worst enemy could not have done to me what she has done, and what she is about to do. If my worst enemy would do this, dont you think I should protect myself? Of course. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOT if you are a follower of Christ........who said to "Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you........." NOT if you are a christian who wants to "Love your wife as Christ loved the church AND GAVE HIS LIFE FOR IT." No, no. Don't you DARE tell me you have!!!!! I'm talking REAL BLOOD here, brother. REAL DEATH. REAL PAIN.
Die to self, MM. TRULY die to self. EVEN TO A DEATH ON A CROSS.
If you were truly dying to self, NO, YOU WOULD NOT "protect yourself."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All of this may be about me. God may be using this to help me grow. I have already grown. But, I am not being fed...not in awhile. I am hungry and tired. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awwwwwwwwww, poor baby!!! You are not being fed??? AWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.........I guess God must be busy somewhere else...........He must not have REALIZED this!!! I'm SURE He would agree you should walk away then!!!!!!! I'm SURE He would agree you have grown enough. I'm SURE He likes YOU making this decision for Him!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told you about God telling me in Bosnia. He told me to 1. forget about my wife, 2. get back to my first love (Him), and 3. die for my wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, brother. I'm still weilding the 2x4!!! I just don't see you DYING FOR YOUR WIFE. I see you "wounded." I see you hurt. Yes, I do. BUT DYING????????? You're a long way from dead yet.
HOW close are you to God at this precise time?? Have you done what He asked you to do? HOW CLOSE ARE YOU TO HIM??? HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE HIM?????? This IS a test...........I want to see you pass it with flying colors.

MM, what if He asked you to "stand" and wait for your W for something like 10 years?? Wouldn't He have a reason?? Would you do it?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel like I have died for her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a reason in my life, that once I dated someone and we broke up, that we NEVER got back together again...not even once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like "Glory be to me" again. See how I'm made??? God couldn't POSSIBLY want to work THAT attitude out of me!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> should she no longer be my wife, then I will owe her nothing...and be obligated to nothing. She will be nobody in my life, save for being the mother of my children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT should go over big with your children in the future!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I love her immensely, and probably always will, I have not gone thru all of this for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, MM, as I have tried (so eloquently) to point out, YOU SHOULD HAVE!!! That is your primary role as husband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She hasnt, and doesnt deserve what I have done! I have done this for me, for God...and to a lesser extent, for my kids. I have done this for me because I made a commitment to myself, to God, to my wife, to my future kids...to love, honor and cherish...for better or worse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't buy this. Not one word of it. If you made a committment to God, you wouldn't be here WHINING to us that you can't do it anymore!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">without that commitment, no matter how much I love her...she has no chance with me! She neither deserves it, nor am I capable of giving it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That committment is skating on pretty thin ice right now, isn't it? Is that HER fault?? Not YOUR end of it, no. That's up to YOU.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ENTERED INTO THIS 3-WAY COVENANT. GOD EXPECTS YOU TO HONOR YOUR END OF IT. TILL DEATH.............

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I no longer have the ability to wait.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's about the most honest thing I've read.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, at least with me, that certain decisions in life cause us to take the narrow road. That we cant take it back. And once the ink dries on divorce papers, that is that. Up until that point, all things are possible with my wife and I. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! Here's the crux of the matter. The narrow road. I recently heard a radio preacher talking about how the "narrow road" is narrow b/c it means you must endure PRESSURE to get through it, you are pressed in from all sides. THAT's what God calls us to endure.

MM, listen (if you're still reading!), the bottom line here is this: we have pretty much established that God's Hand is still working in all this. I think you are aware that HE has a plan.

Do you know what it is? If not, or if you're confused at this point about how to hang in during all this, I have an idea.....(not that you are wanting to hear anymore from ME!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think fasting, maybe a 3-day fast, and praying is in order. Try it!!! Ask God to meet you there. REALLY get alone with Him, and seek His face. You are drained. That's obvious. That's a given. It's understandable. BUT, God KNEW this would happen.

What is He trying to teach you now? What is He trying to get you to do, to see, to learn?

The sooner you learn it, the SOONER the "cloud" moves, and you start making progress again!

I love you, brother, I really do!! I want to see you make it. I DO!! Please search your heart. And seek God more.

God Bless you and your W.

JL I agree with everything you said except for the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Coffeeman, yours closed when you met someone who filled your life and you wanted and did marry."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine closed even before I divorced her when my love bank went bankrupt and I decided that it was time for me and the girls to move on without her. Not only did I lose all love for her but also all hope as well. JL I have to be honest and say that even if I had not met my present W, I would not have had any desire for letting my XW into my heart once more. Even if the good Lord decided that it was time to call my DW to heaven, I would not have any desire to reconcile with my XW and you can take that to the bank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

lupolady:

Wow! that's got 2 be the biggest 2x4 I think I've ever seen! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> MM lives on the east coast, and I'm on the left coast, and I SAW that 2x4 arcing through the air from HERE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MM: Try this (if you won't try my other experiment):

♣Take responsibility for everything you feel. That's pretty easy, isn't it.

♣Now, another thing: You feel the things you feel based on your reaction 2 what you percieve is happening around you, right? That's not as easy, but if you think about it, it's true, isn't it?

♣AND, if you keep thinking about it, you'll realize that your feelings that you feel based on your perception of things happening around you is colored by assumptions you make about what went in2 the mind of the person you're interacting with at the time.

♠Like I said before, it's "safest", more "protecting" if you simply assume that your assumptions are wrong. Don't assume (we've all hear about what assuming makes out of u and me, right?). I'd even like 2 go so far as 2 say you have no RIGHT 2 make assumptions, but the simple fact is that you have every right. It's just not going 2 get you what you think you want if you do, is it?

♣You and your W are in recovery right now. It pulls a good vacuum, doesn't it? My W and I started a few months ago ourselves, and I think it does, big time. It's HARD. But it would be a whole lot harder if we weren't able 2 communicate daily (even sometimes many times daily when we're apart at work or something). We don't always have "quality" communication when we're 2gether, but we do have communication. Gawd, I'm grateful for that. My W has even said a few things that I 2k as hurtful. Now, if I were 2 tell the board what she said and how I reacted, some might shout "plan B!" or something, but instead I thought about what she said, when she said it, and how we were both feeling at the time based on things we perceived as going on around us, based on our assumptions... ...hopefully you see what I mean here.

♥In any case, I later realized she didn't quite mean what I thought she said. Looking forward 2 the fu2re, I can see many bumps in the road ahead, most of my own construction. But even those I didn't put there subconsciously I'm willing 2 take responsibility for, if it will help me 2 think about my assumption process before I react s2pidly on it.

♠Looking back on your threads over the past year or so, I can see many moments where you were ready 2 just quit, or she was ready 2 quit. Each time you or she came back. This is a process. Sometimes it's a painfully slow one. But I don't think you'll ever be done with the process. After all, you'll always be a family whether you're an intact one or not.

♥Since you have 2 go through your problems anyway, why not try 2 steer the process in positive ways? I think you have more "energy" for this than you give yourself credit for. Lighten up on the assumptions and drama. She may come around.

♣And by all means, don't "withold" conversation if she wants it. Conversation, GOOD conversation, is the key.

-ol' 2long

Mortarman. I've just skipped hundreds of lines of postings to say this one thing.

God told you to DIE for your wife.

So why haven't you done it yet? You are trying so damned hard to be the perfect leader and husband. Those parts of you need to die. You need to break, Mortarman. YOU need to change so drastically that you don't even recognize yourself.

Dang it Mortarman, all of this came to me so fast that I can't even type it as fast as it's coming out and I have a feeling the Divine is using me as a voice here and I'm not even sure I believe in it yet so you damned well better listen 'cause I am NOT being a voice of God for nothing here, all right?????

So stop fighting this!! You are the grain of wheat that must die for a whole new stalk to be born. You keep fighting it and you're going to rot in the ground. You ARE rotting with hate and anger and fear and hurt.

You have to stop it.

Find the sun.
Find warm rain.
Find cool, dark earth.
Find peace.
Find peace in your soul, mortarman.
Grow peace in the good earth, in bright sun, in warm rain. Grow it in your soul.

You are a man of war. It is time for you to die to war. It is time for you to become a man of peace.

Find peace, mortarman. Find it.

Hi MM,

Sadly again I find myself noticing issues easily on other threads, but not on mine...
Anyway, I hate to agree with other psters, but I strongly feel there is contact with OP.
I know I always loook for another scintilla of trust, and hope to be able to go on, but I think I am in the same boat as you are.

We want the recovery so badly, invested so much of our pain and hope, put so much trust and forgivenes that we choose to remain blind to the reality.
Sorry MM.
We still have the power to choose what we will do.
I wish You peace, and to myself as well,
FBOW

Mortarman, how are you doing?

Everyone...I really dont know what to say. There has been a whole host of posts since I last posted. And I have read everyone of them.

Most of what has been written is right on the money. Lupolady...that was the biggest 2x4 I have ever seen wielded on MB! And rightly deserved.

I have taken two weeks to just go silent. I am seriously thinking about that fasting deal mentioned above. Over thistime, a lot has happened. And I am not sure what to do with it. I wont go into a blow-by-blow, but let you know this...where we are at right now is NOT because of my wife. It is because, as JL put it...I have been losing hope. And, I have felt my lovebank drain out the last dime for my wife.

To sit here and think of divorce, and feel nothing but relief, has scared me. Because ultimately, I want to do God's will. But, a lot of things have been shown to me over the last three days.

We have been going to counseling together over the last three weeks. This past Monday, in the middle of things, my wife hit me as hard (not physically) as I have ever been hit emotionally. I do not think that anything that the OM and her did could hurt me as much as she did. But in what she said, it appears that I may have not gotten exactly what she meant. But first let me tell you what she said.

She told me and the counselor that SF for her was uncomfortable (not physically) and that she felt that I had been in it for myself. WOW! Considering she showed and told me differently for the 8 1/2 years before the A, I was floored. Either she lied then, or she is still fog bound now. Because my wife, pre-A, had reiterated over and over how good our sex life was, and that it was the basis of our relationship (as well as family, faith and friendship). Her #2 need is SF, it is my #1.

Anyway, I was stunned...hurt. I didnt say much else during the session, and pretty much closed down on the way home. Then, before we got home, I told her that I do indeed want a divorce. That if that is how she now felt about that part of her life (when she showed and told me differently), then this cant possibly work. And I just wanted out.

Well, she didnt have anything to say except that I am misperceiving what she said, but that she doesnt have it in her to fight.

I barely talked to her the rest of Monday and Tuesday. I contacted the lawyer and began making preparations for after Thanksgiving.

Aahhh...Thanksgiving. My wife, for the first time in our marriage, had decided to cook the meal (she wanted to do it, she decided last weekend). Then she met up with a good family friend of ours last weekend and they decided to cook together and make it one big deal. Well, after what happened Monday, I was not going over there and spoiling the holiday...and told my wife that she was still welcome to go with the kids. She said she would.

Anyway, yesterday came around and my wife called me at work. I was supposed to go to the grocery store after work...but she was asking to go with me. Of course, I just asked "What do you need?" she said that she just wantedto go. And I asked why? Her comment was very telling. She said "Why are you making this so difficult?" What I now know she meant was that she was trying to reach out to me. Anyway, I said okay.

Last night, we stopped by these friends house to drop off all the food for today. And stayed and had pizza. My wife and our woman friend stayed in the kitchen talking...and drinking a lot of wine! And me and the husband friend watched TV. Every so often, my wife would call me in, asking met o do something, or joking with me. Of course, I was still not in a very jovial mood.

Anyway, my wife had to leave early to stop by a friend's house totake care of their cat (they are out of town) and she would meet the kids and I at home. I knew she would be gone for about 2 hours, so I stayed awhile longer.

The female friend asked me to come talk to her. She said that my wife had told her thatI was pursuing the divorce. I told her that was true. She said my wife hadsaid what had happened Monday...that I had misperceived what she was saying. She was saying that right before the affair, the few years before, our sex life had changed. That things werent what they were before. She said she "felt" like things werent right there.

Our friend tells me that what I was dealing with Monday was woman feelings. That it didnt have to be based in facts. That I had blown it...because what my wife was looking for was me to acknowledge her feelings. To ask why she felt that way. Instead, I took it personally.

Our friend wenton to say that she asked mywife if she also wanted the divorce. My wife said no, but that she would let me do it if it was what I wanted.

She went on to say that she told my wife that she was surprised, that it looked like we were doing so well. My wife said she thought so to. That my taking her house hunting two weeks ago, had energized her into moving forward with me, to start seeing a future with me again.

Our friend asked her if she had told me all of these things. She said no, that she was scared of getting hurt, of letting me know her feelings, and then things going back to the way they were right before the A. Our friend told her that how was MM expected to know how she felt, and to adequately meet her needs and make her feel safe, if he didnt know how she was feeling. She then told my wife that if she wanted this marriage, she was going to have to open up, to meet MM halfway.

Our friend then told me some of the things that I need to work on that scare her, or that I have worked on but she still doesnt see. But she said the biggest thing was I am going to have to listen. To allow her to express her feelings, even if I dont like them.

Okay, anyway...you get the picture. So where is MM today? Well, I am about to head over to our friends house with my wife and kids for Thansgiving. My wife and our friend will be cooking all day.

But emotionally, I dont know. I hear what my wife is saying,and I hear that she doesnt want to lose me. But, her actions still dont match her feelings. She is still doing nothing to meet my needs.

Now, before Lupolady and JustJ start wielding the World's Largest 2x4 again, let me say something.

I know! I know that I have been required by God to die for my wife...and I have found that I still havent done so. I have hurt, I have bled...but I aint dead. I know that this whole marriage, after what I heard last night, hinges on me...not my wife. That she is excited about a future now. That she doesnt want to lose me. That do to past pain, she is scared...and not communicating with me.

But ultimately this is my responsibility. I was called by God to lead...and to die, if need be. Not my wife. so, somewhere in me, I have to find the will now to push this thing thru.

If you asked me two days ago if it was over, I'd say yes. But after hearing last night what my wife really feels, then I know that theproblem has really not been with her (except in the fact that she has not communicated with me)...but with me.

I still am unsure, even after all of this. Not unsure of the marriage, or whether my wife wants in. I now know that she has kept from me the truth...that she does want us. But I am unsure because I really am bankrupt in my love bank. I have stayed up all night, trying to see if I have the energy to push forward, and I cannot find it.

But, what I read this morning from your latest posts has made me believe that the Holy Spirit is using you to get to me. That maybe...with a Mortarman now bankrupt and unable to do anything on his own for my marriage...maybe now, I have sufficiently gotten out of His way...so that He can show His power and love.

Maybe, by what I have read from all of you, He is trying to make surethat I know that dying for my wife means that only He can bring it backto life. That all my Plan A's and Plan B's, etc...without Him at the helm, really mean nothing. That dying for my wife brings Him glory, because then...when His will is done, then no one involved, or even outside of this marriage, will be able to deny who actually made this happen.

Maybe it is that I must decrease so He can increase. Maybe if things had gone back together earlier, it would have made it look like "Saint Mortarman" was the hero, was responsible for the recovery.

I have a lot to think and pray about this weekend. But I do know that all of you are being used by God to get thru to me. (JustJ...it is an amazing thing when you know God is using you, isnt it?)

Thanks for your willingness to listen to Him. What you have done here means more to me than you know.

In His arms.

Mortarman, my bro in MB as well as in Christ.

Read Malachi 3:16 "I hate divorce". You are not done yet and you should not filed.

Tell her that you don't have energy to carry on and you need her to help you out otherwise one of you would take the Dv road. If she asks you what she needs to do ... tell her how she could fillin your LB$. Tell her exactly how you feel w/ no LB, let her reach to you back.

God blesse you -rh-

Why don't you surprise her and the kids and go to that combined Thansksgiving family dinner?

That would sure be nice of you and show you are a very caring & comprimizing fellow.
Sincerely, Sarah

Maybe it's time to close this love bank account and open another love bank account for your W. Why? Because the old marriage is dead, you and your W are different people than you were pre-A. To expect SF from this 'different' woman without first connecting emotionally with her is to court disaster. Yes technically she is your W and it is her wifely duty to show you love through SF, BUT do you really want it if her heart is not in it? Women are more perceptive than us men, and they can tell when a man wants nothing but sex from them. Most women who enjoy sex do so because they are emotionally connected to the men they are with. While the following is stupidly obvious and we men pay lip service to it, it seldom sinks in and so it must said repeatedly: WOMEN ARE NOT MEN WITH VAGINAS. The more a woman perceives pressure for sex from her man, the less she is going to want it. A man's resentment is and never will be an aphrodisiac to any woman. If you want to fulfill your role as lover, then you have to demonstrate to her that your love for her is NOT dependent on her giving you sex. The greatest lovers in history have always conveyed that message to their women.

<small>[ December 02, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Men are so weird about sex. Anything you say about it makes them SOOOOO sensitive. (Can't remember...was your W the one that referred to marriage as licensed prostitution, and you got all bent out of shape about the cliche? Maybe someone else.)

My advice: try not to rock with every earth tremor. You have many ahead. The overall temperature seems to be getting warmer -- as someone (you?) told me long ago, don't go by the day-to-day temperature, look at overall trends.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

I have been reading your posts and have come to the conclusion that you are correct in filing for divorce. You have tried to forgive her for having the affair and rebuilding the marriage but she has not forgiven you for things you may have done in your marriage before the affair. Instead of trying to create a new marriage she is still trying to justify her affair. She states that she does not want to have a divorce but wants to have a legal separation. IMO this attitude to run away shows a lack of commitment to rebuilding a marriage. This is the same thinking that she exhibited during her affair when she was having an affair. She didn't want a divorce but still wanted to continue her affair. Only when she saw that you were serious did she break off the affair and come back to you. MM you cannot rebuild a marriage by yourself. The fact is that your wife's past and present actions show that she is not interested in being married to you.
If she was she would be telling you right now that she does not want to separate but will be doing everything to help build a happy marriage. By saying that she will go along with your decision to file for divorce shows even moreso that she is not interested in staying married by not wanting fight for the marriage.

MM,

I have no idea how i found this thread. Just wandering around the boards and I clicked on this one. I never even come to GQII. I stay in the Recovery board. So know this isn't an accident!

I'll first tell you that I am a female BS in your shoes. I read through most of the whole thread and boy, could I hear myself in your words. We have been going thru recovery now for almost 2 years but true recovery only about 7 months as we had a false recovery.

I am a deeply committed Christian and desire nothing but for God to be glorified through all of this mess we have found ourselves in.

About a month ago God had to use his big 2x4 on me through one of my friends and it sounded very much like Lupolady's post to you. I was very, very much in your shoes. "I am right, I am right, I have done everything, he has done nothing, I'm finished and ready to move on. I am not waiting for however long it takes until he decides to get it right."

YOu see, God had tried to gently tell me to stop having certain expectations about our recovery, how my FWH should be acting, what he should be doing. The first time it was a gentle statement from a godly friend. The 2nd time was a little more emphatic with a statement from our pastor that went something like, "You know, he's not going to do it exactly like you think he needs to." My eyebrow raised a bit but I didn't really take it to heart. Then a couple of weeks after that my dearest friend let me have it, so to speak. I heard it loud and clear and I was humbled beyond belief.

My pride was so in the way and God is going to do what he has to do to remove it.

So when reading through this I see that God is really trying to work on you as well. You have to let go of your expectations of your wife. If she is a committed christian God will deal with her and he will restore your marriage if you move yourself out of the way.

Your last post sounded much like me after my friend "talked" to me. I began to see things a little differently. Then I read the following in the book "Forgive and Forget" by L.B. Smedes (changed slightly to reflect my sitch):

One day, Beauty's husband admitted that he had feelings for another woman and had for some time. What? For some time? After all that she had done for him. What about all the years she had slept with him, nursed him, protected him, kept track of his schedules, got him to work on time, made him look good and smell good, and, in general, made straight the highway for him and his trollop to get together?

Beauty's very virtue was her undoing. She trusted; he betrayed. She gave; he stole. She was true; he was a liar. She was faithful; he was faithless. Her only fault was the blindness of her pure love. Virtue had made a sucker of her.

Certain that any fool of a person would see the rightness of her case, Beauty pleaded her case to many friends. But FWH got himself a wise counselor, and he along with Beauty's friends pulled her naked across the barbed wire of inquisition and twisted her words into a testimony against herself at the appropriate times. She began to look like the sharp toothed culprit and he the guileless victim.

But the worse the friends and counselor made her look, the purer Beauty felt.

She spent the better part of the next 2 years scourging her soul with replays of FWH's assault on her innocent devotion. She was insecure enough in her righteousness to risk some counseling with a view to getting psychological support for her malice. But her hate was undermined instead. As she found new insight into herself the bitter pleasure of her hate lost its edge. The long and short of it was that Beauty began to see herself as a tarnished angel.

FWH did not deceive her; she deceived herself. She had really known all the while; but she did not dare to admit that to herself. The truth hurt too much, so she denied the plainest evidence. She wore the blinders of her own fear, more coward than fool. Her first eye-opener - insight into her dishonesty with her own self.

She also came to see that she had not been the self-giving lover she thought she had been. She really wanted security more than she wanted her husband, and she counted on his commitment to give it to her. She bet everything on his morality. He was the sort of character who would stick with what he was stuck with. All she needed to do was remind him to be a good boy and she had him where she wanted him.

When she could see herself as she was - some good, some not so good - she made an opening for forgiveness to squeeze through.

Self-understanding reduced the act of forgiving to a minor miracle that even she could manage. She discovered herself loving her husband with magic eyes, and she felt free to be a more honest person.

I don't like it, but it's the truth and it keeps my pride at bay, most days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No, my FWH doesn't meet all my needs as of yet but I know he will if I truly let God lead instead of doing it myself. There are still many days when I can feel cold icy fingers gripping my heart to harden it. I fight against it and realize that it's the evil one trying to do what he ultimately set out to do - destroy.

The Lord is my portion - for those who wait on Him. Lamentations 3:24 If you wait on Him, he will give you exactly what you need - not too much, not too little - a perfect portion.

I know this has been lengthy and I have no idea if this will strike any cords with you but it did for me and I appreciate the opportunity to share what has happened in my situation.

I"m praying for you both!

Sorry, just gotta say one more thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Actually, I could say about a hundred more but I'll stop here, promise!

When I let go of my pride and expectations, I'm able to see that my FWH is doing some things right, not all, but many. And you know, I know I'm not doing everything right either. We both have to be patient even if it takes forever.

My H has the same reservations that your W has about opening up to you. It's very hard for him to communicate with me b/c in the past I have been very overboard and critical w/ my communication.

It really does sound like your wife wants to open up to you but you have to be able to receive what she is saying

O.K., the end - I'm stopping <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Then, before we got home, I told her that I do indeed want a divorce. That if that is how she now felt about that part of her life (when she showed and told me differently), then this cant possibly work. And I just wanted out.

Excellent reply to her !!!!

Now observe her reaction...

Well, she didnt have anything to say except that I am misperceiving what she said, but that she doesnt have it in her to fight.

This is where you should have replied..." I know I probably misperceived what you said, but I just don't have it in me to fight anymore either, it just doesn't seem to be working."

Also, observe what happened next, as she was truly sensing that you have had enough of this merry go round and you want off.

Anyway, yesterday came around and my wife called me at work. I was supposed to go to the grocery store after work...but she was asking to go with me.

Think that had anything to do with your comments and sudden change of direction of telling her that it wasn't working? Or, just coincidence that each time you have let go, she has picked up the ball....??????

Here is a quote from you that gives me an insight to how effective you comments about giving up moved her thoughts to a changed position. All because she "perceived that you let go"...

She went on to say that she told my wife that she was surprised, that it looked like we were doing so well. My wife said she thought so to. That my taking her house hunting two weeks ago, had energized her into moving forward with me, to start seeing a future with me again.

You see Mortarman, she was telling her friend that she was WORRIED. The reason she was worried was because she KNOWS she has not really shown you that she really wants to be in this. She is lying to her friend by omitting her role in you wanting out...

If I were you, I would stay on the theme of.... "I know we have tried, but it doesn't seem to be working does it honey?".. We seem to be going backward... etc. etc.......

Let her SELL you on why this marriage can work....

Mortarman - I deeply sympathize with all of your struggles. I think you have given it your very best. However it kind of seems like you are fighting a war - thinking about attacks and retreat, preparing your battle plan, trying to out-think the enemy, watching for snipers, on a constant state of alert. As the leader of your family you need to stop, put up the white flag, and turn the battle over to the Lord. Admit you are powerless over this (Step 1 of 12 Step program I think) and ask the Lord to take over for you. Each day when you go back into your war fighter mode, turn it over to the Lord, over and over again. You have not been wrong, you have given it your best. It is time for you to turn it over to the Supreme Commander. Good luck and by the way, thankyou for answering your country's call. We Americans are forever greatful for you fighting men.

MM,

There is so much I want to say to you and to your W. I am almost ready to schedule a trip to your place to talk some sense into both of you.

First, I think I would get your W's friend, your W, and you in the same room. Next, I would explain that your mindreading skills are NOT very good. I would ask each woman how you were to validate your W's feelings if they are not clear. Further, I would point out that you did VALIDATE her feelings. You accepted her statement at its face value. She did not, does not, and probably will not want you in her bed. That is pretty much what she said in your mind wasn't it?

Next, she may ask why you didn't ask her to clarify. The answer is obvious, she was very clear in what she said, and you are too drained to fight with her ( you didn't know if she wanted to argue or what), and you want her to be happy. She has not made an indication that she could or would be happy with you. She needs to start to help you. If she has feelings she needs to express them, NOT just the negative ones, but the positive one. You have been running on your own since you were deployeed to Bosnia and she started the affair, through your return and her affair continuing, to her leaving you and the kids to be with OM. At no time has she offered you any hope. She came back to "try" but even then no hope was offered.

Then ask her friend, how would she have done with such little support or hope from her spouse?

The point here isn't that you are right or wrong. MM, the point you need to get across is that you are drained, hurt, and too weak to fight any more. You need help, her help. Tell them, exactly what I see: A man who still loves his W, a man that cannot fight her, a man who has lost all hope because he has not been offered any, and a man that only hears of his failing and her anger. YOU NEED HER HELP or the marriage is over. Then say simply: "I really don't have anything else to say and I don't know what to do."

I think you need to say this to her in front of her friend. Lay your soul bare MM, and do it in front of her friend and her. It will be embarrassing to you, but I think it will help you. If she asks what can be done, the answer is very simple. Tell me why you don't want a divorce, tell me what there is in your heart for me that I can build on to be the husband you want, tell me that I can fail and still have a chance.

It seems to me if she cannot tell you those things, then it is indeed time to move on. But, I would get together with her and her friend today, tommorrow sometime soon. Just the three of you at your house or hers and tell them these things.

Their response will help you no matter what it is.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Mortarman, yes, it is amazing when you know God's using your voice. It's also just a little unnerving, particularly when you're not even sure you believe in God! But that's all right. My belief may not be all the way there, but when "It" is speaking, I try to shut up and listen anyway.

Having said that, I finally am starting to see the death that you need to die. Stop fighting, Mortarman. No more Actions on your part. No action toward divorce, no action toward defending yourself. A man of peace listens. A man of peace loves the speaker even if the message cuts him like knives. A man of peace says to his wife, "Darling, I love you. I am suffering from my anger. I need your help." (Taken from _Anger_ by Thich Nhat Hanh.)

Let her help you. Ask for her help. Let go of determination, of strength, of invincibility. Accept vulnerability. Accept hurt.

Have you cried in her arms, MM? Have you shaken like a baby and sobbed while she held you? Have you shown her your fear?

You are right to feel relief. Not for filing (don't you dare). Relief for accepting that YOU cannot fight anymore. That's exactly, EXACTLY right. Stop fighting. Right now. Stop fighting. Accept the death of your fight. Mourn for it. And rebuild your marriage.

Mortarman,

I promise to leave the 2X4 in the garage today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I would just like to comment on a few things you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She told me and the counselor that SF for her was uncomfortable (not physically) and that she felt that I had been in it for myself. WOW! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe said in part to "explain away" why she had A. Also probably said to hurt you. And it did. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I'm very sorry for that.
Perhaps she felt it needed to come out, and she felt "safer" saying it in front of counselor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, I was stunned...hurt. I didnt say much else during the session, and pretty much closed down on the way home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, <BIG sigh>, this is where the "dying to self" would come in handy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You wouldn't have had the complete wind taken out of your sails at those statements if you weren't taking all of this so personally! DIE TO SELF. DIE TO THAT EGO (that damn "male ego" thing you guys have that makes you NEED to know that you are the best damn lover your W ever had)!!

In fact, I think your W would have had lots more to say if you had not "closed down." MM, why not try this exercise? The next time she says something that hurts immensely, why not ask her to explain? Ask her to re-phrase it. Try this: "Honey, I'm not sure what you are saying to me. Can you re-phrase that in another way? I'm trying to understand what you are telling me, but I'm confused by that last statement." Or, try something like this: "Honey, do you mean -XYZ - or is it something different? Am I missing the meaning? I don't think I understand..."

I have to admit I'm not very good at this sort of thing, but if there's one thing I've learned in 2½ years at MB, it's this: EVERYTHING is going to have to be negotiated, POJA'd. If we don't have good negotiation skills, good communication skills, the ability to ASK when something doesn't "ring" right on our brain, and we don't ask our S's to clarify, then we will only end up back where we were pre-A, holding things in, shutting our S's out, re-playing it in our brains until it causes us unneccesary hurt. We must learn new skills for the new M we are re-building THAT's why the majority of second M's do not survive. People leave M's, and move quickly into new ones, with the same lack of skills that caused problems before!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what my wife was looking for was me to acknowledge her feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this is true. It's a skill you'll probably need to develop (but so will she, eventually).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that I have been required by God to die for my wife...and I have found that I still havent done so. I have hurt, I have bled...but I aint dead. I know that this whole marriage, after what I heard last night, hinges on me...not my wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, your M does NOT hinge on you. GOD WANTS YOU TO DIE TO SELF!!! At the point at which you do this, HE WILL TAKE OVER AND DO THIS FOR YOU.

Blessings to you, my brother. We're all praying for you both.

AMM:

"(Can't remember...was your W the one that referred to marriage as licensed prostitution, and you got all bent out of shape about the cliche? Maybe someone else.)"

That was my FWW. But you're right, I did get all bent out of shape about it. What did I do that "worked?" Well, I'm still working on that, but the most success I've had has been 2 DROP MY ASSUMPTIONS of what that means 2 her, and ASK her if I want 2 know. I do that, and most of the time I don't understand the answers, so I drop the assumptions again, knowing what I'll do with them anyway!

MM needs 2 do this, 2. His sitch is/has been far more "intense" than mine, though my W's A lasted far longer than his did. TMCM had some excellent advice.

I would one-up him by suggesting that maybe MM should drop the "lovebank draining" metaphor entirely, because I think his adherence 2 it, combined with his frustrations, are being used by his subconscious 2 feed some sort of self-destructive self-fulfilling prophecy.

MM, TMCM is right. Your old M is OVER. You need 2 build a new one, and you can't do that by vir2ally demanding that your "new W" meet your top needs before she's ready 2. Particularly SF.

If I could find lupolady's garage, I'd hunt up that 2x4 and whack you a good one again with it, because your W's telling you she was uncomfortable with SF was another try at being honest with you about how she feels, and you blew it off (by misinterpreting it or her intentions). But you probably felt the 2x4 without me swinging it, anyway. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

yosh:

Sometimes, particularly for posters like MM who've got a lot of experience on the boards, a post like yours can ac2ally serve 2 remind them 2 fight harder FOR their broken Ms. And so, for that, I think your post is helpful.

"I have been reading your posts and have come to the conclusion that you are correct in filing for divorce."

You've been here for a couple months now. MM's story goes back well over a year. He's a prolific thinker and poster, so I would bet you've missed a lot. I don't think it's this simple.

"You have tried to forgive her for having the affair and rebuilding the marriage but she has not forgiven you for things you may have done in your marriage before the affair."

Good point, and it's probably true. My W hasn't forgiven me entirely for the things I did before and during her A, either. But think... for 2long, I kept right on doing the things that bothered my W before and during her A. MM is doing the same. He needs 2 figure out how 2 stop this behavior. Hard 2 do, truthfullly. But better than simply jettisoning the M, because she'll never be out of his life since they have a family 2gether.

"Instead of trying to create a new marriage she is still trying to justify her affair."

I don't believe this for a New York Minute. She's not trying 2 justify anything, she's trying 2 reach out 2 someone who is very hard-headed, with a firmly-held belief system (this is NOT a criticism of his religion), and a very strict set of expectations of her that are very hard for her 2 meet. When she tells him how she honestly feels, he gets hurt and reacts by threatening divorce rather than truly trying 2 empathize with her feelings (believe me, I did that for so long my head is still spinning from the realization of the idiocy of it all).

"She states that she does not want to have a divorce but wants to have a legal separation. IMO this attitude to run away shows a lack of commitment to rebuilding a marriage."

Possibly, but I think it's more due 2 her frustrations with feeling like she's met an impasse with MM. He doesn't listen, he gets angry. If she KNOWS that he'll get angry when she opens up, why would she want 2 open up?

"This is the same thinking that she exhibited during her affair when she was having an affair. She didn't want a divorce but still wanted to continue her affair. Only when she saw that you were serious did she break off the affair and come back to you."

Coming home and blowing off the OM was a BIG STEP for her, and one she made several months ago. It was a risk, because she faced the very real possibility that the changes MM made during his plan A would be only temporary, and that their R would soon be right back 2 the state it was before she had her A. I believe that she's still trying 2 connect with HIM (not his rules and regulations) even now, but is just as afraid as she was before her A. That she hasn't gone back 2 the A shows that she's realized that THAT isn't a viable option, but a self-destructive lifestyle that she no longer wants. Now, it's determining whether living with MM is better or worse than living alone. Harsh, but if any of us BSs really make the effort 2 try 2 understand the WS' behavior and choices, I think I'm pretty close 2 the mark with that assessment. It's certainly demonstrable in my own sitch.

"MM you cannot rebuild a marriage by yourself. The fact is that your wife's past and present actions show that she is not interested in being married to you."

I don't think it's at all this clear.

"If she was she would be telling you right now that she does not want to separate but will be doing everything to help build a happy marriage. By saying that she will go along with your decision to file for divorce shows even moreso that she is not interested in staying married by not wanting fight for the marriage. "

More like it's saying that she's just as frustrated trying 2 get through 2 MM as he is by not having SF all these months. Again, harsh, but true.

MM, I believe your W wants 2 be Md 2 you, but she wants it 2 be a happy, mu2ally rewarding M.

♥2long

MM: What Lupolady and 2long said struck a chord with me, and I thought I might be able to say something similar in a slightly different way.

Many times during recovery, my wife would say things that made me angry. I would get in to a place where I was so angry I could not talk about it, so I would stew and stew on what she said, frequently for days (and nights). In almost all cases, when I finally had calmed down enough to ask about it, I found out that what I thought she meant, and what she really meant, were two different things. It has gotten to the point that now, when something she says makes me angry, I am pretty darn sure that I am mis-understanding something. Frequently, when I am frustrated, hurt, or afraid, (the three causes of anger) the same is true.

When she told you about feeling that you were in it for yourself, what she was trying to tell you was much different than what you heard. I am not saying that what you heard is not true, however. What I am saying is that she was trying to tell you something REALLY important, and you missed it.

Let me give you a further example from my own experience. My wife have an ongoing problem related to our sexual realtionship. When I asked her to change some things, she said something to the effect of: "I can't." What I heard was: "Your needs are not important enough to me to look at myself honestly enough to do this. I will not deal with my issues for your sake. All my words about how I will do WHATEVER it takes to be the wife you need are just more lies."

Do you think that is what she meant? I am sure it was not. Was what I "heard" true? Maybe. But until I get to the bottom of what she really meant, I won't kow for sure. Just writing about it now I think she meant something like: "I am afraid I am not capable of that much change." Being afraid you are not capable of doing something is quite different than not being able to do it, but if the fear is strong enough, it can FEEL like not being able to do it, so maybe that is what comes out of your mouth.

Furthermore, the difference is crucial to how I respond. If what she is saying is simply about stubbornness, obstinacy, hard-heartedness, and a lack of commitment to our marriage, my response is going to be quite different than if it is because of fear. In the first case, once I take care of any ways in which I may have contributed to her attitude, I will leave her to the consequences of her actions. In the second, I will give her encouragement and make it safe for her to express her fears, and explore ways I can help her overcome them.

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

MM, I don't think I've ever posted to you, and I rarely even peek into GQII anymore, but somehow I ended up here today, so here are some of my thoughts for you.

TMCM's post regarding SF is bang on. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The more a woman perceives pressure for sex from her man, the less she is going to want it. A man's resentment is and never will be an aphrodisiac to any woman. If you want to fulfill your role as lover, then you have to demonstrate to her that your love for her is NOT dependent on her giving you sex. The greatest lovers in history have always conveyed that message to their women. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H's insistant need for sex, but unwillingness to work on our friendship and to spend time with me doing things that do NOT include sex has driven me away from him. I don't sense that he genuinely loves me anymore, it's more like he still just physically needs or wants sex with me. I repeatedly have had the feeling that I am just a sex object for my H, and it's a huge part of what has driven me to divorce. (Although, keep in mind that in my sitch that my H reserved his emotional attention for his 2 female friends, and how that compounded the pain for me.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should indeed not just expect sex from your wife, regardless if it's your #1 EN. You've got to meet her non-sexual ENs in order to have her be interested in SF. It's the way we women are wired. If we don't feel that you are emotionally connected to us, why have sex with you, why give away part of ourselves to you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what my wife was looking for was me to acknowledge her feelings </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY. And on that day that you went for counselling, when you took her comments personally and jumped to talking about divorce, I'd say you pretty much told her, "Don't share your feelings with me, especially if they aren't positive feelings towards me, because I don't want to hear them, in fact, when you talk to me about your feelings, I want to leave you."

I may be way off base here, but maybe she had her A in the first place b/c she felt like OM really listened to her, and validated her feelings. I know that is a huge part of the reason I ended up havig an A myself. My H was too busy soaking up admiration and appreciation from his 2 female friends to be bothered with having to listen to me wasting his time talking about my feelings, but OM listened.

So focus on being a good listener to your W, especially if she's talking about her feelings. And don't expect sex without first making her feel a genuine emotional connection with you.

You and your W really do sound like if you can communicate better (directly to each other and not through her female friend), that you'll have a really good chance at recovering your M. Little things like her wanting to go grocery shopping WITH you....she cares about you and wants to spend time with you. What I wouldn't do to have my H ask to go shopping with me, and to do something with me other than try to initiate sex.....

I hope what I've said gives you some food for thought.

Jen