Dylan left me last night. - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Well, I can't believe this is really happening. After a 2 month long affair with our roommate, my subsequent breakdown and the invitability of a major choice to be made, my wife last night confirmed that at this point she is not willing to commit to saving our marriage and was prepared to walk away from me and our 8yr old son.

The OP is (supposedly) out of the picture. I believe this to be true as I still have a hard time believing that my Dylan would lie to me.

I have taken my son and come back to Montreal where I have friends and family. We arrived this evening and I'm sitting here stunned and exhausted and completely destroyed.

Anybody out there?

dewt

Dewt,

I may not be the one you want to hear from, and I haven't read your entire story, but I can say that I feel incredibly for you and your situation. I am not at all impressed by your W's inability to even give your M a try. My H and I are 6 months into recovery, and we admit that we are not happy yet. But we also know that we still love each other and will not be able to end it all until we make sure we try everything possible.

In my feeble eyes, it would seem as if the OP is not really out of the picture. Of course, I cannot be sure or even on course. But for her to so seemingly nonchalantly give you and your child up, she would most likely have to have a safety net.....and what she does not realize is that she is throwing something very precious away.

Try not to give up - try to live for you and your child in the meantime. Improve your life. With time, you will become and feel stronger, and she may reach bottom. If not, then at least you will be in a place where you feel pride and security with the manner in which you have dealt with your situation.

Remember that we cannot control other's actions. We can wish and communicate our needs, but it is up to the other person to work to meet those needs. And to be honest, you deserve to be loved, and to be in a marriage where your needs are met, and you are respected. Everybody does.

Anyhow, I wish you the best, and just wanted to write letting you know that someone is out there, and praying for you.....

Well, after re-reading my last post, I'm not sure anyone who knows me would believe it was me, as I usually write books and post them up.

So here's more of the story. Besides, maybe going over it again might help me gain some perspective.

4 years ago, I had a 3 month affair and shortly after D-day my wife found this site and we worked together at restoring our marriage. It was a very long process, involving thousands of posts, endless discussions and massive efforts on both our parts. Somehow we got through it, but not without leaving scars. My wife claims she never got over the rage and still has big issues about my straying.

For my part, as a serial cheater with a way screwed up emotional development, the whole experience sparked a massive and profound change in me. While the marriage survived, Dylan buried her rage and the other undealt with issues and I turned my whole life-perspective around and really and truly learned the meaning of devotion. I love my wife so much and even though our lives and marriage have been plagued by stresses and disasters I have remained true and committed.

About three months ago, we took in a roommate. She was a friend of my wife's from the bar and after meeting her I was so impressed with her that I set her up where I work and gave her the chance to build a career where as before she was a painter/labourer with little hope for a decent wage or advancement.

Things were going well. The three of us were quite close, and an awsome arrangement seemed to have fallen in place. She and Dylan would flirt openly but it was all in fun and (my wife not being A few weeks after starting, she had an accident on a table saw and badly cut a few of her fingers. She went on disablility and that's when the problems really started.

The flirting intensified and the roommate frequently went to the bar where my wife works. She would stay till close and the two of them would then spend the wee hours of the morning becoming more and more intimate. My wife came to me saying that she was becoming curious about experimenting with a member of her own sex.

Being a pretty open minded guy (who would do just about anything for his wife) I said ok, provided that there was complete disclosure. She said she wanted to include me but she had to become comfortable with the whole thing first. And while it's [i]not[/b] something in particular that I'm into, I do kinda like to be a part of my wife's sex life so I was a bit clouded for a bit. I never really bought that one though, not really because a) I knew the roommate was a lesbian and b) I just knew it because I just knew it- the way sometime you just know things. I made a big mistake here, and I know it now. At the time I could not have ever concieved that it would go this far.

Gradually I noticed that I was going to bed alone more and more often and when I started waking up alone more and more often I started getting concerned. I would wake up often in the middle of the night and go down the hall to join them for a smoke before returning to bed. Gradually the feeling that I was intruding grew in me until it was stated outright. As my insecurities began to show I was told not to "f**k this up." and things generally spiralled downwards from there.

The worst thing about the whole thing, (besides it being right in my face) was seeing how into this other person my wife was getting. The hunger was visible in her eyes and I could tell by the way she groomed herself and was attentive to the roommate that something was growning that shouldn't be. It didn't help that all her behaviors were the ones that I'd been trying to bring out in her for years. In fact I'd kind of given up on them, sacrificing hunger for stability and passion for permanancey. I really didn't think that my wife was the kind of person who had those types of sexual/sensual feelings... but here they were - only directed towards another person. And worse - the attention and devotion that she did have for me was slowly drained away and redirected.

I became increasingly uneasy with the situation and began showing signs of the strain. My anxiety was summarily dismissed, often with signs of irritation and I was told to relax and that everything would work out. I was told that I was over reacting. My average day would begin with me waking up alone to find them in the other room, bras tucked under the couch pillows. I'd go to work and they'd have the day together. I'd come home and more often than not my son was alone in the playroom while the two of them were upstairs in the adult sitting room. Usually within a few minutes of me getting home, they would leave together on some errand and I was told to spend time with my son who I hadn't seen all day. If I was lucky, after bedtime for the boy, I'd get to sit with the two of them and enjoy my wife's company for an hour or so before she went to work at the bar. The roommate would stick around sometimes, sometimes go but almost always left just before last call so she could be there when my wife finished work.

Things got worse progressively. I started doing very badly at work. I was emotionally and physically drained and even though I wasn't conciously aware of it my marriage was already on the way to utter devastation.

The whole thing was quite open, though my wife's promises of openness and disclosure were very quickly put aside. This kind of thing was not supposed to happen.

After about a month or so, I tried to raise some issues but was shushed. I became more shaken and insecure and the more into loneliness and desperation I sank, the colder and more callous my wife seemed to treat me.

I would love to vent so many of the details and little things along the way that slowly ripped pieces off my heart and psyche, but that would take too long and I've finally stopped sobbing. I don't really have the stregnth to cry anymore.

The whole thing blew up last week when my wife came home drunk from the bar.(not working) True to form, she blew her curfew off completely. And I almost walked out on her. At the last minute I didn't. The sight of the roommates arm around her, comforting her, snapped me out of it. "I will not walk away from this marriage!"I stated and we began to talk.

I told her that our marriage was in serious trouble and that if she wanted it to work she would have to fully commit herself to the task. As a one-time major poster here, I thought for sure she would be seeing clearly and that we could make it work.

She agonized over it until last night when she finally broke down and confessed that she didn't have it in her to commit to the marriage. SHe had too many walls up inside her. Too many blocks. She had to fulfill a personal journey before she could work on a marriage. Having been there, I understand the stregnth of her convictions, but having been there, I also know what a pile of nonsense it all is.

I told her that if she wanted to walk away from the family and marriage that it would be her doing the walking. I would not be the one leaving. I was commited to the family and the marriage and she was not. In other words, no, I would not go and leave our son with her. If she had a personal journey to complete, she didn't need to drag our boy along with her.

SO amidst many tears, she agreed that our boy would stay with me while she did what she felt she needed to do. I did not want to stay in that town as the only reason we were there was as a stepping stone in our life plans. Since they have been summarily dusted, I felt that a return home would be a good idea. Here I have at least a few friends and some family. It's the nearest thing to a support system I'm going to get.

In my opinion, the whole thing is an escape. She never really recovered from my affair and she has other issues too. Amongst them the fact that she doesn't feel 'in love' with me. Our finances have been strained, our home has been in complete disarray and the boy has been having behavioural difficulties at school. Neither of our emotional needs have been fully met for some time, but whenever we'd talk about them or other issues nothing concrete ever actually happened to resolve the issues.

As the situation imploded, the roommate decided to move out. Apparently my over reacting made her uncomfortable and I was made to feel guilty about driving her away, if you can imagine that. I asked my wife to stop and she said she didn't know if she would or could. Roommate said that she'd be waiting and if my wife wanted she would know where to find her.

There's so much more, but at least this is a more in depth description of what has go on.

My wife insists that she loves me. She feels that this is a journey that she must go on alone and that when it is done she would likely come back, but no promises were made. I love her with all my heart and every day I've spent with her, that feeling has grown, despite our difficulties.

Now I am a single Dad, hoping and praying for something that I fear may be gone for good. My life and my dreams have all been wiped out and at some point I'm probably going to have to explain to my 8yr old son that his Mom has left the family and may or may not be back.

That is the worst thing about this. I'm a broken man. The last two months have been really brutal. Every single word/action from her has cut right to the heart of every insecurity that I have and though my world has been destroyed, at least I'm not in limbo anymore and I know that come what may, I will survive.

On the other hand, when my son comes up to me and proudly shows me his newest lego creation, I look down into his trusting eyes and knowing that his whole universe is about to be destroyed twists my heart into such a knot that my wife's infidelity seems a pittance in comparison.

Oh my god, what am I going to do?

[ January 03, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]

Deut,

Other than wanting to reach out and smack the two of you, this is what you're going to do.

1. Identify (to the best of your abilities) where you've messed up over the last couple years in regards to helping Dylan fall back in love with you. Lovebusters and EN's. When you've identified these, you need to put a concrete plan in place (a behavioral plan) to work on these. And you need to work on them, regardless of whether she's around or not.

2. Take care of your son. You're in a good situation that she's left both you and him---this will help to bring an injection of reality into her situation more quickly.

3. If you can afford it, get into counseling/coaching with either of the Harleys or with cerri (www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com). My concern with this happening to the two of you now is that you didn't get competent help from the beginning to work through this all. This stuff is pretty commonsense, but if you don't have someone guiding you through the process you increase the chances of failing. You should have a plan in place for recovery---and a mental attitude that it will be a "when", and not an "if".

Sorry to hear the news.

lost in tx
Thank you so much for your reply. I wrote more of the story as you were posting. To write the entire story would take weeks and I'd probably have to change some parts so you'd believe it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My wife has given this marriage more effort over the years than could possibly be asked of anyone. Before my time at MB, 4yrs ago, I was far from the ideal husband, and she has stuck by me through more difficulties over the past 8yrs than most people have in their whole lives. That's part of why I'm so stunned by this. Talk about coming out of left field.

As for the OP being out of the picture, I've been assured that she is. I do not suspect my wife of being a liar. That would be extremely out of character. Through this whole thing, while she has not been entirely open, she's yet to outright, intentionally give me a falshood. Regardless, the OP being in or out of the picture is beyond my control. Part of me hopes that she is not out of the picture so that my wife can go and do this and when the thrill wears off, she will realize what she's done and what it's cost her. If the OW stays out of the picture it might leave some lasting doubts and wonderings.

The OW is not a safety net. She may have felt like one, but it is an illusion that will not stand the test of time.

you said:
"Try not to give up - try to live for you and your child in the meantime. Improve your life. With time, you will become and feel stronger, and she may reach bottom. If not, then at least you will be in a place where you feel pride and security with the manner in which you have dealt with your situation."

That is excactly what I'm planning. At the same time I will be hanging out here and trying to figure out a way to win her back. When I learned about devotion, I really learned and I'm not willing to give up on her just yet. At the same time, as you say, life must go on.

Actually to be honest, I deserve way better treatment than I've been given the past two months. In fact if I were to discribe all the ways in which my feelings have been trampled and my needs disregarded and how the whole thing was rubbed right in my face, I could probably say that I've been treated downright inhumanely. But then again, wayward spouses that are in a fog/fantasy can do some insanely hurtful things without even being aware of it. At least I'm not in limbo anymore. I've already forgiven her for all that, not that I'll forget it, but I don't have any resentment about it. Too much of this seems like karmic payback for me to wallow in self pity about it.

Anyhow, I wish you the best, and just wanted to write letting you know that someone is out there, and praying for you.....

Thank you so much. It's what I need right now more than anything else..... (besides my wife's presence that is) I really appreciate it.

dewt

Smacking would be good. (wry grin) You may want to get one of Dylan's old 2x4s out. BTW, good to see you again, K. (well, kinda)

1. Identify. I have already begun this process. I am convinced that most of this whole thing is an escape and it's not difficult to identify a good part of the things she's trying to escape from. I still feel that there is something I'm missing though and without clean, open and honest communication I'm not sure I'll be able to get to the bottom of it. We are talking without any major problems and there aren't any anger/rage issues to derail our talks.

My main feeling is that though we worked things through and I managed to grow through the healing and learn how to devote and commit fully, Dylan stalled somewhere along the way. She often has complained that she never knew what to do with the rage and that she still carried it around with her. I think that my actions in the past have helped her put up walls and defenses through which it is impossible for her to show a manifestation of the love that she does truly feel for me.

2. Take care of your son.

I'm a good Dad and he and I are pretty tight. I will take care of him and am glad he's with me. I agree with your statement and already signs are showing that she knows she's made a big mistake. It's only day 1 though so I'm not putting too much stock in that. We will see....

3. If you can afford it,

Can't afford it. Basically jobless and homeless. I've been slowly falling apart at work as this developed. Lack of sleep, food and stress have not helped my position. I didn't like my boss much, didn't get treated very fairly and when the rest of my life fell apart it wasn't hard to walk away. I have what's left of my last paycheck in my pocket and there isn't any more after that. I will be working soon enough, but even then I've got to be very focused on finding a place to live and moving my things into it. Not to mention dealing with the debt that has accumulated as the preoccupation with this affair drew our attention away from more worldly matters.

I do have a plan for recovery and it fits right in with my plans if recovery never happens. My plan is to get my sh*t together (if you'll excuse the expression), find a nice place and set it up in such a way that when she sees it, it will be in such contrast to the chaos that we have known she will immediately be swept off her feet and move back in with me. If that doesn't work, I'll show her how well I can cook for me and the boy and how well fed and healthy we look, and she'll want to be healthy and well fed too and miraculously the fog will lift and she'll come back to me. I'm also going to make sure that all our clothes are laundered and folded and when she comes into the house and doesn't trip over anything, she'll fall anyway (force of habit) and I'll be there to catch her. Our eyes will lock and she'll be unable to resist. I'm going to make sure all the bills are up to date as well. That will really freak her out and when she's off guard, I'll sneak her that special smile and she'll be swept away. I'm also going to teach the children how to clean up after themselves and when she sees that... well let's just say that will be the piece-de-resistance. What woman could resist? I ask you. I'm also going to start eating and sleeping again so that I don't look like death. Did I mention that the cigarettes are gone too?

That's kind of the bulk of my plan. I figure if it doesn't work, well at least it won't be a total loss. I could sell the movie rights to the kids cleaning up after themselves and retire in Mexico on the beach or something like that.

The help will have to come from places like this and the few mutual friends we have that are wise and whose opinions we respect. I know that's not really enough but I'm many months away from even thinking about having extra cash and therapists are not cheap.

I'm trying to avoid thinking in terms of 'when' even though I still believe that is the case. I've just had my hopes dashed so many times over the past few years that I'm finding it easier to live without hope rather than with the fear of having hope and seeing it squashed (as has happened so much recently).

I'm going to set up and prepare for life as if she isn't coming back but at the same time I will continue to fight for her. She's told me she loves me and hopes to do this soul search and come back to me. I've heard things like this all my life and have had the reality of what actually happens shoved down my throat too many times to put much faith in it. But still, I love her and she's more than worth the wait, even if in the end she doesn't come back.

dewt

[ January 02, 2004, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]

Deut--

K's advice is, as usual, great, so I can't add anything except my sympathy. I am really, really sorry to see you and Dylan come to this. It was pretty clear that things never really healed before, but I had hoped...

Well, I don't think things will heal unless/until Dylan figures out how to handle her anger...it is a huge wall. As you seem to realize, that is something she has to deal with, you've got your own things to work on.

I am glad that your son is with you, I think you were right to let her be the one to leave.

This whole thing sucks.

Kathi

I know that the healing was not complete. If pressed I would have to admit that I knew this all along. I feel that recovery requires more than a new set of behaviours. It requires more than a commitment from both parties to stay.

What it requires is an absolute letting go and a leap of faith off a cliff that really and truly has no botttom.

Seeing the pain I caused her back then tore my soul right in half. I couldn't live with myself... I couldn't just go through the motions of healing... I couldn't just partially commit to trying... I gave myself wholy and completely over to her and my love for her. Am I perfect? No. But as much as things have not been easy and my emotional needs (particularily the big ones) have not been being met and at no point has that caused me to withdraw from her.

Ángi never made that same jump. True she wasn't willing to walk away, and she worked really hard at recovery. But healing never happened because she never really let go. And it's not just the rage issue. I think the rage is more of a symptom. I think that to protect herself, she put walls and defenses up and never really gave herself over to me and our marriage. Considering me and my history, I can't say as I blame her. But what once was is no longer. I am not the same man.

Ya, this whole thing does suck. For all my brave words and efforts to keep what's left of my family intact, I have no idea about anything at all anymore. Everything that I knew last week has become dust. Life as I know it has just been decimated and I really feel like a very small boat adrift in a ocean of uncertainty.

My son and I are basically homeless. He does not know yet that Mom may not be coming back. I've got like $300 bucks in my pocket and nothing more coming in till I find work. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Our computer is fried, which is why I wasn't here sooner, seeking help on how to deal with this. Could this have been avoided if I'd had different insights and some moral support? I told her I would be coming here, regardless of her and what she does. I hope she shows up though with the computer down I'm not holding my breath.

I'm using a friends pc right now. Shortly I'll be leaving for the Eastern Townships where I have some family. I'm not sure if there is a computer there with online capability. I hope so. If you don't hear from me for a while, that is why... but I will be back. This place helped me once change my life and grow to a level that I'd never imagined possible... I need you guys now more than ever.

dewt as much as she may be lost and trying to find herself, she is still a mother and that means she is still responsible for her son's wellbeing. Does she have a job? if she does then she must send you child support payments, more so now that you and your son are basically without a job and practically homeless. No matter what happens to the marriage, her parental obligations are not absolved by her departure.

Deut,
Sorry to see you back for this reason.

Recovery is hard work. And it isn't all that unusual for the BS to have an affair "down the road", not necessarily in retaliation, though that happens as well, but because of getting tired of "trying" and suddenly that sense of deserving a "fresh start" emerges. Especially if there is a waiting OP encouraging, beckoning, welcoming.

My advice would be much the same as K's.

If you want your marriage, give as much energy and TIME to that effort as Dylan did years ago.

Your plan sounds like an excellent start...stick to it.

Dewt,

Wow! Wasn't expecting all of that! But as you know from being here before, it's not impossible. It makes me so sad to read this after all the work you and Dylan did a few years ago. I remember the struggles and the pain.

I'm glad to read you also have a plan in place. And that you've started figuring out the problems and what to do about them.

You know this takes time and patience. Keep your chin up and make life good for you and your kids.

Lots of luck,
Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

T00MuchCoffeeMan, thank you for your reply. You are right there is no absolution in regards to her parental responsibilities. The thing is that though she may have stepped away from the marriage and family, my son and I left the house to her and she has MUCH work ahead of her. I firmly believe the the chaos that is/was our home is partially responsible for her compelling urge to do this. It is fitting that she stay and clean that mess up on her own. I would not be surprised if it was beyond her. It was beyond the two of when we were a team. The mess is monumental and is not confined to the insane clutter within which we lived. It is also financial. My paychecks have not been disbursed responsibly and she is facing issues of disconnection, eviction while she tries to sort through the unending piles of boxes filled with junk.

Her job is a joke. She works in a small town bar and it happens to be the town dive at that. It's a crappy place with insane small town politics driving the drama behind it. The tips are barely worth mentioning and unless she's willing to sleep with the boss (yech) she won't get the good/regular shifts. Getting child support from her is the last thing on my mind. Scratch that, it's not even on my mind.

Her primary responsibility to her son right now is to wake up out of the fog and realize where her priorities are. She needs to figure out where/who she is and what she wants. She loves her son with all her heart and I know that letting him come with me was one of the hardest things she's ever done.

Lor (Lor) Oh how I want my marriage. The funny thing is I don't think that it will be that difficult to put what she did into recovery. I actually think it will be much easier. I have already forgiven her... I have been horribly treated, but I also know how it happened and why, even if I can't really put it into words yet. I'm taking none of this personally and I've told her of my plan and told her that the door will be open if and when she decides she wants back in.

There is no part of me held in reserve as far as this is concerned. No part of me held back and protected from harm. 4 years ago I had to make a choice between utter devotion to this woman and walking away. I chose and am still discovering the profound depths of that choice. Yes, there is pain here, and betrayal and uncertainty and loss, but all these, as horrible and devastating as they are, are pitifuly small and insignificant when held up and measured against the life-love I have for this woman. I have no anger. I have no rage. I understand my pain and treasure it as proof of the fruits of the journey that I began 4 years ago. Proof that I have become a better man and really learned how to love. Plus there's that whole karma thing...

Mitzi, to be honest, I wasn't expecting any of this. I was aware that she hadn't fully healed... dimly aware, in the back of my mind... now that everything has imploded, I can't believe I didn't recognize it conciously and do something about it sooner. Part of me is also aware that I've done everything I could. I've looked at myself in that harsh light, accepted responsibility for the pain and suffering I've caused and made the journey of self change. I've done what was asked of me through recovery - not grudgingly, but enthusiastically.

Anyway, no I was not expecting this at all, either. I've called a few friends and family, trying to marshall my resources and instead of Happy New Year, they've been getting this. Oi.

The boy and I are about to head out. If my cousin has online I will check in tonight. If not, I will be back in a few days. Thank you all so much for being here. I feel like Í'm in a surprisingly stable state emotionally but still not sure if it is just shock... I'm really glad I have this place to come to.

ttfn,
dewt

[ January 03, 2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: dewt ]

change of plans...

Weather too horrible for driving so we will stay in Montreal overnight.

dwt---i am catching up on your story---from your sig line there are two children? you only mention a son. i will read background and try to pray for you---hang in.

Yes. My young son is with me. The other son lives with my ex-wife in MTL - that's why I came back. The boys and my Fatherhood in general are touchstones of sanity and purpose in this insane and devastating situation.

dewt: You say you are a long-time MB'er. So... your wife exploring a sexual relationship with a woman met with your enthusiastic agreement?

Believe it or not, I do not ask this mostly rhetorical question to beat you up for your past mistakes - we all have made them. However, I am making a point about now and the future. Harley's plans and principles only work if you actually apply them. There is nothing here that you can pick and choose from. It's all or nothing, if you actually want it to work. If you want to have a great marriage, you have to meet each other's most important emotional needs, you need to protect each other, and you need to use the POJA to make decisions. You cannot leave one out. You can't actually do those three things unless you are honest with each other about how you feel, and spend a lot of time alone together - Harley says 15 hours/wk, and I am in no position to argue with him. I've read a bunch of marriage books. Most of them say something like "here are 20 things you can do to have a good marriage", and nobody can possibly do all 20. Harley has identified the three important ones. You can't skip one.

I've put a pretty concise description of what a BS needs to do after discovery in my signature line link. Click below and refresh your memory.

[ February 04, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]

Hey dewt,

Well, I hardly know what to say............

I have been thinking of Dylan a lot lately, and I didn't know why. I feel kind of worried, but this is certainly one thing I never imagined. I am so sorry for all of this.

It is true that Dylan never, ever healed. I know it is true that the two of you never resolved many of the issues that came from your affair. We talked about that sometimes. I know that the two of you have had lots of other stresses on top of all that, and that most of the time she felt overwhelmed by all of it. I can relate to some of that, and I can see that she would feel like giving up or looking for some kind of escape. This situation is a real shocker though. Knowing how Dylan valued fidelity and honesty, and how absolutely dedicated she is to your son, I cannot imagine her being away from him. Knowing how much she loves YOU, it is hard for me to believe she is walking away from you.

I would really like to talk to her. Do you think she would? I asked her to come for a visit a couple of years ago, maybe she would do it now.

K has given great advice. I'm really sorry because I know you are hurting so badly, and I'm really worried because I think Dylan is really in trouble. Please let me know what I can do.

Here's my email: peppermint1999@hotmail.com

Contact me if you need to or want to.

I'll be thinking of all of you and really hope I can help.

Peppermint

johnh39, there is a difference between enthusiastic agreement and going along with something because you've been asked to by someone that you never want to say "no" to.

As for being a long time MB'er, I guess I should clarify. 4yrs ago I cheated on my wife and she found this place. We posted here lots for (I guess) about a year to a year and a half. I never became an expert on Harley principles. The lessons I was learning then were way way deeper and far more profound than anything actually taught here on this site (no offense). The site and the principles helped and were a part of it, but not the center. Things are different this time around. My needs and headspace are different as a BS than a WS.

I've been unable to access my computer through all of this or I would have reviewed the material with an eye to applying the principles from the BS point of view. So I thank you for your links and reminders.

hanora, thanks for your concern. Geographically, we are separated by about 300 km. I hope she gets online... she needs to connect with the people here... old friends and new... I hadn't thought of the library. I will mention it when we talk later.

peppermint, thank God you are here. She mentioned I should try to call you out. Check your email.

This is I guess day two now... or is it day three?... I wish I knew how I felt. I'm assuming this kind of emotional numbness-chaos-horror-I'm ok, not ok kind of thing is normal?

dewt

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> there is a difference between enthusiastic agreement and going along with something because you've been asked to by someone that you never want to say "no" to. <hr /></blockquote>Which is exactly my point. And, it is something I did which was a MAJOR cause of our marraige being miserable, so I'm sensitive to how destructive his seemingly good desire can be.

Forgive me if I disagree with you about the Harley principles being shallow. They are much deeper than they appear, even if they only deal with behavior - or at least, they appear to only deal with behavior. I am involved with a marriage enrichment ministry at my church. We use materials by another author, who teaches very practical ways to deal with problems that are common to many married couples. I find myself saying over and over, as we go through his marterials: "If you follow the Harley principles, you won't HAVE this problem, and will never need to solve it." The more this happens, the more convinced I am about the wisdom and depth of what Harley teaches. Harley's principles ARE simple. They are not easy, however, and, IMO, they are not shallow, either.

That said, I understand that there are things that Harley's principles do not really deal with, particularly in terms of what happens internally to cause a person to make the major changes that are required so that they CAN apply Harley's principles in their marriage. I'm guessing that is what you are talking about in your case.

There is one other thing: You may find that applying Harley's principles are more relevant to your situation now than they were to your situation as a WS. My MC contended, (to put words in his mouth) that Harley's principles were more applicable to women's affairs than mens, as a general rule, because mens' affairs were more influenced by internal factors, and women's affairs were more influenced by the state of their marriage, and Harley's approach was to fix the state of your marriage in a way that would eliminate much of the the motivation for future affairs. Harley's prescription for recovery actually does recognize the that relational gaps in a marriage are not the only thing that tend to lead to affairs, which is why his plan is more complicated than: "Find out your spouse's most important emotional needs. Fulfill them." Again, it is part of the depth of what he teaches that many of the issues raised in other affair recovery books are covered in his recovery plan without ever being directly addressed. Particularly for WS's who are men, however, there may be some additional internal work required for a complete recovery.

I wish you the best in your efforts to restore your marriage.

Bless your hearts.

I got the message that you were here and I'm so sorry for both of you. I was just talking to Kristin about Dylan the other day.

I can't add any advice...you've been given the best and, under the circumstances, your plan is good.

Just wanted to let you know that we're here.

Please let me know if there's anything I can do.

Lori

Damn dude, that's rough. I can't add to the advice laid down, so heed it.

The upside is Ethan (god i hope that's his name) is with you.

Hang in man, find an HP, cause when my [censored] falls off God seems to be the only one around.

Lori... Bill... Thank God you guys are here...

My email is dewt2003@hotmail please drop me a line... I need as much help on this as I can get, because it is so beyond my abilities to... well whatever it is I'm suppossed to do...

John, please excuse me if I gave the impression that I think the Harley principles are shallow. That is not the case. Thank you for your advice, which I will follow.

I don't have easy access to the internet yet. For now I can only check in quickly at a local internet cafe. I will try to get online in a more permanent fashion as soon as I can.

Thanks all.

John

I rarely get to a computer anymore, but I too heard that you were here. I'm so sorry.

All I can add (and there's no advice I can give - K did the best advice-givin' there is)... is that I will be saying prayers for you and Dylan, and your son.

God Bless you...

John,

I'm gonna hi-jack your thread for a quick second

HI SHERYL!!! Long time no see!

John,

Also, you know that this is the hardest thing to go thru. You've also gotten advice from the best. (4 years ago and now). Lots and lots of luck to you. Keep us posted!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />