B4Long: A response to your post - Marriage Builders® Forums

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B4Long,

I thought I would avoid hijacking Jen Brown's thread and respond to you here. You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />JL

I have bit my tongue after reading so many of your post. (I see you have over 7000 of them)

This one really, like so many other of yours, just grates on me.

Yeah...it was harsh. You seem to pride yourself on being so direct as if you didn't sting people with your harshness, you have failed to uphold your self appointed calling.

Where do you come off suggesting this poster is in a 'victim mode'. I hear nothing but remorse in her post, admitting her mistake, and pleading with others to turn from their own folly, while she seeks sincere advice for her own issues.

Why do the 'wag a finger in her face' with this pious "You brought this on yourself". She is hurting for a number of reasons. Give her a break, will you?

Man...your stuff just irritates me at times. I know you offer some good sound advice often times, and are appreciated by many who do read and post here. But for crying out loud...you sound like a male Dr. Laura and then end it with a "God Bless".

Please...work on 'speaking the truth in love' and when someone is fallen, 'restore with a spirit of meekness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted'.

Sorry...but I have wanted to respond for a long time and just held my peace. <hr /></blockquote>You know, I thought I was 'speaking the truth in love'. However, sometimes love is tough to hear.

You know the only part of your post that bothered me really? It was you took exception to my signing off with "God Bless". On this site I can think of nothing more appropriate and yet you feel I don't mean it. How sad! I really do, that is why there over 7000 posts (I didn't realize there are that many.)

As for my response to Jen, do you dispute that she started this mess with her A with the OM? Do you dispute that her H might be and would have reason to be mad at OM? Do you think that most of the BS's that post here wouldn't like to confront and humiliate their OM/OW? Don't you think the catalyst for all of this is her A?

I beleive it was and I don't believe in lying to her. She was lamenting the fallout, but she "in my opinion" wasn't recognizing in her post (although I am sure she knows it) that it was a direct and PREDICTABLE result of what she did. Especially given how her H has acted for all of this time.

If her H had posted here and asked if he should confront OM after the A ended, most including me would have said "no stay away from him". But, he doesn't post here, he didn't ask Jen or anyone else. He did it to humiliate the OM and get back at him. It is understandable that he do that.

My point to Jen was to deal with it, she did it, but to act with class and grace. "This too shall pass."

I am sorry you don't like my approach to posting here. I am sorry you feel I am doing a lot of harm. I will consider you comment carefully with regard to this point.

I don't feel I can do anything but what I do or it would be a lie. I am not inclined to lie, and I am very inclined to respond to what I read here and how I interpret it.

However, if it is truely doing harm as you claim, perhaps I should also address myself to the other thing you pointed: 7000 posts. That is probably too many, and perhaps it is time for me to move on.

I do apologize if I offended you, but I won't lie to avoid offending you. I see what I see, and I comment on it in order to help. IF you don't agree, well then I am sorry that we don't and perhaps never will.

However, your comment that I am causing harm, is something for me to seriously consider. I will do that, and rather than lie, I will definitely leave.

I don't know what brings you here, but I hope you find what you are looking for.

God Bless,

JL

JL

I, for one, ask you to please not quit posting here on MB. You have given so much wonderful advice to so many people, including myself. People are not going to always agree but that's ok too, that's what makes life interesting. I have totally backed up on my progress this week, I hate to admit to you. JL, I need desperately to find another job. I am never going to heal as long as I have to work with OM and see him everyday. I have to talk to his wife on the phone, relay the "I love you" messages to him from her. I feel as though my face is being rubbed in it over and over while he has suffered nothing. His wife obviously doesn't know about his 4 affairs, including me. I was making wonderful progress until last week when a male co-worker felt the need to share my "dirt" with a new female co-worker. It's like I'm starting over again with the vicious cycle!!! I pray for a door to open with a new job but that doesn't seem to be meant to be right now. There is nothing that I can possibly gain by staying there and having to tolerate the comments that have been made by other men in the office about me and to me!!! OM hasn't had to deal with any of that!
Sorry, JL, I really intended to just tell you to please keep posting but my fingers got to going!!!!

JL,
If we all had the knowledge that God has, and the ability, I am sure we could do better at this.

Since we don't, we can only do the best we can, and I feel you do a good job.

Perhaps Jen could tell you what she feels after reading your post, but I believe it helps for things to be said in different ways, from different points of view. I think she is tough enough to understand, and big enough to take it as you meant it, and I don't think you would have been blunt to someone with a more fragile makup.

Though I realize you dont' make your decisions based on popular opinion, I vote you continue. Your point of view is often needed. Sometimes you are the only one that can see some sides of things and you are very good at using the right words to communicate what must be done.

Yes, I vote you continue to help -

SS

just learning...

whatever you do, PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE...

♥ ♥ ♥

oaktown...

[ March 03, 2004, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]

JL. DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE.

Jenny

Folks,

This is NOT a threat to leave. However B4Long's comments should be considered. If only one of my posts bothered her, then I can chalk that up to just my messing up. I assure you it wouldn't be my first.

However, she suggests that most of the posts of mine she has read, are in fact NOT constructive, and that warrents careful consideration.

She is NOT the first to comment on my style, so I know she is NOT in left field. So I decided to post to her to get further feedback and consider her comments carefully. It may be that we just don't agree or she may be right in her suggestion that I am causing harm. You see I cannot tell really.

I have always hoped that when my posts missed the mark or were wrong, that the person receiving them would simply ignore them and I suspect that happens often. But, it is NOT my intention to hurt someone, wake them up yes! Ask some hard questions that perhaps their spouse could/would not ask, absolutely. And frankly I don't necessarily think offering sympathy is what this site is about either.

In my mind it is a place to learn and discuss. IN my line of work, that interaction is often "full contact" so that is how I deal with it. I think that real counseling and help should come via a trained, GOOD counselor which I don't pretend to be.

All that being said, I don't want to harm anyone either. So I will consider her words carefully and the decide on a course of action. It is not a threat, it is just what may need to take place.

Your comments have been very kind, and I do appreciate them. But, please recall this site has a lot of really good people with great advice and insight on it. One person more or less will not make that much difference.

Thanks again for your comments.

JL

JL, you were another of the people from the board that I was thinking of today, as I left the computer and was going about my day.

I thought of how dedicated you are to helping people; in this non-paying job.
If you are like me, thoughts of people's problems linger in your mind. They do, don't they?

It is okay that b4long wrote and disagreed.
It will keep you humble and you will feel, even though unjustly, how many people feel when you have to give them some of your tough love advice.

About the only thing I would recommend in your posts, would be to make them shorter as our feeble minds can only comprehend so much knowledge at one setting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your good work here.
I am sure you have steered many many people back from the detour they were taking to onward down the right road.
Love, Julie

Just Learning,

NO, NO, NO. Please don't leave. Your advice and feedback is too valuable to us all.

[ March 04, 2004, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: 4give ]

JL,

Your posts on this forum are an absolute treasure. You manage to get to the truth of the matter and do it such an eloquent, loving manner that I am in awe sometimes. The contributions you make to this forum are unmatched. I don't think there is a person on this forum who hasn't benefited from you, I know that I sure have.

Jen knows that you were speaking in love and took it that way. Anyone can see that.

I can see that our friend, B4Long, is offended by the TRUTH, rather than by you. Nice words are NEVER a substitute for the truth. It would be so easy to just tell Jen what she wanted to hear, but a true friend tells a friend the TRUTH. People who don't give a damn will just tell her what she wants to hear. You are a true friend to her and many others on this forum.

His lack of appreciation for this principle reminds me of one of my favorite verses:

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

In other words, talk is cheap but the TRUTH is a demonstration of LOVE.

Please don't ever change, JustLearning!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
[QB]

It is okay that b4long wrote and disagreed.
It will keep you humble and you will feel, even though unjustly, how many people feel when you have to give them some of your tough love advice.
<hr /></blockquote>Julie, I haven't noticed that JL has any shortage of humility in all the years I have been here. That is not quite how I would describe him.

The point of telling people the TRUTH is not to make them "feel good" but to help them. If they want to feel good, they can call their mommies, if they want the truth that sets them on the right path, they should come here. We are here to learn and grow, after all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />About the only thing I would recommend in your posts, would be to make them shorter as our feeble minds can only comprehend so much knowledge at one setting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I think that is part of his style that is much loved around this forum. He should post to suit *his* taste and style, not that of every poster. Just as you have your own posting style, everyone has theirs and that is part of who they are.

Thank you Melody for you kind words.

However, I must be able to face the truth as well. So it is in my best interest to listen to someone that posts as B4Long has. I may not like it, I may choose to ignore it, but I should listen and consider it.

That is part of the deal after all, isn't it? If I am going to post the truth as I see it, I need to be able to listen to the truth as someone else sees it, especially when it is directed at me.

I do appreciate your comments though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

JL -

Your leaving this forum would be as silly as Tiger Woods quitting golf because he only won 3 of 4 majors this year...

Just because you hit it in the woods once and awhile, doesn't mean your not one of the best players here.

Now go to the range and work on that slice...but don't sell the clubs just yet!

Gib

JL, I can't comment on B4's feelings. None of us is perfect and if perfection is the standard for posting here we might as well shut the site down and all go home.

I for one have found much that benefits me as I read your comments on other situations. For example,

1. You comment to several WS that they are treating their spouse like a pet, gosh that really opened my eyes. My wife is doing that to me while she pursues her A with the OM.

2. Your comments to Sally on what she has to lose.

3. You comments to Punched on trusting his WW and how she can no longer read him because she is focused on the OM.

These are three I can come up with on short notice. I could find more if I went through my notes. All have helped me focus on the problem in my marriage and how to best respond to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey buddy, keep up the good work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless You.

DON'T YOU DARE GO ANYWHERE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Folks, I am one of the WS's that JL spoke "harshly" to in the beginning, and I can tell you that even through my pain I could see the compassion in this man.

I normally would NEVER get into a popularity contest here -- but JL has been around for nearly 5 years, as have I. I come and go - but when I'm posting, it's to try and HELP OTHERS. So I have thousands of posts - that means (I hope) that I have tried to reach as many people as I can! JL, is this your truth too?

If you go, let it be because you have CHOSEN to leave, having "done your job"... in my opinion, you aren't done yet. I stuck a fork in you - you're rare! But then, I've always thought that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ March 03, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

Dear JL:

I think that many many times you are "right on the point". You have the great gift of interpreting people's writing here and come to their help.

Often we are in an emotional state of shock and only see our side of the story. So many times you have turned subjective impressions and feelings into an objective assessment of a situation.

I have always greatly appreciated your point of view. Please know that I give you a lot of credit for helping me along and putting me back on track in recovery. You have a big part in the happiness that my H and I have found again with each other.

...and in those instances that I have disagreed with you, I have told you that straight up ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Now- you asked to hear some criticism: maybe just this...when you didn't like my response that I thought you were putting too much blame on me for hindering recovery (...and you were certainly right-as I know now) and you were defending my H too much, you said something along the lines that if I (IP) did not want to accept the truth "Then I (JL) should stop posting to you". I felt very sad when I read that, because I highly value your opinion and I would have loved to discuss our different points of view. It felt like I had to be quiet to continue exchanging thoughts with you.

JL...you are not wasting your time here. You have the experience and the expertise...and a ton of intuition to make real changes in people's lives.

Please keep doing that.

...and thank you from the depth of my heart for every minute that you have spent reading any posts of mine and thinking about my story. You have helped me so much (Where's that "heart greamlin" when you need it???)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Just like Sheryl, a few times a year some MB oldtimer will wander back in to say hi, long into recovery, and talk about how JustLearning "set them straight" back when. Boy, do they appreciate it too! They remember EXACTLY what he told them and love him for it. They never mention their gratitude to those who just told them what they wanted to hear, but they mention their gratitude to JL. They REMEMBER someone who told them what they NEEDED to hear. Someone who really cared enough to tell them the truth.

Most people don't care enough to do that. JL DOES. He takes the time and care with the really hard cases that no one else wants to touch. Who wants to bother with an unrepentant, mixed up WS's? Most people are so repulsed by them that they just pass on by. But NOT JL!

He will spend hours with them, patiently cultivating their trust and bringing them along. Patiently drilling the truth into their heads. And when they try to delude themselves, he will skillfully yank them back into reality. What an absolute treasure to this forum! He treads where no one else dares to go.

So please excuse my gall and deep offense to sit here and watch someone who has contributed NOTHING and cares nothing about this forum, take snipes at a man who has given his heart and soul to this forum. I find that deeply galling.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />However, I must be able to face the truth as well. So it is in my best interest to listen to someone that posts as B4Long has. I may not like it, I may choose to ignore it, but I should listen and consider it.
<hr /></blockquote>Geesh I don't have time for this crap....where is your house JL I will just drive straight there beat the crap out of you with one of your own MB 2 X 4s and inform you I will be back if I don't see post number 10,000 before the year is over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ March 03, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]

JL:

If you leave, I just might have 2 drive on up there and RAT you with the IDD! ...of course, it would take me a 2ple of years 2 get there from here, so you be sure and sit tight and wait for me, okay?

-ol' 2long

B4L,

You are a brave person to post your thoughts and as expected, JL wisely posted his reply. As you can read, many have high respect for JL and his postings.

Gotta wonder how long you have been here reading on MB. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not that familar with Jen's history, you then need to realize that JL and others posted with her history in mind.

JL's posts are often given with great thought and consideration. He also has a great sense of humor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> People come here not to have their ears tickled but to find solutions. The insight of this group has helped many. For many, JL's postings along with others have proved to be invaluable.

Am I defending JL? I don't need to. His reputation via his posting do quite well by themselves.

One thing I really respect JL for is his perserverance. Despite all the pain, he still comes back and helps. Endlessly sometimes. Kinda like a firm, kind and patient uncle. Pretty much knows what to say at the right time.

Wish I could be as astute. My pidgin prevents me from speakin' too good kind english. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is a saying that speaks of a wise person learning from their own mistakes but the wiser one learns from the mistakes of others. JL helps us learn to be wiser. For that I am grateful.

By the way, have you shared your story yet? Please do.

L.

JL

Please note that I acknowleged that you do give out a lot of good sound advice.

You also comment several times about my saying you 'harm' people here. I didn't say you 'harm' anyone.

I did admit that a certain tone you convey grates on me often times.

Also, I am not suggesting or implying that you leave here. (I do gotta admit that you sure have a lot of time here given all your posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) Let me also add that I don't think for a moment that you would post as often as you do, and with much of the thought that goes into your posts, if you didn't have good intentions. Like I said, as evident by the responses on this thread, you have helped a great number of people.

My struggle with a number of your responses is you seem compelled to drive home the point that a WS brought all this heartache on themself. It has nothing to do with being 'offended by truth' as someone already suggested. I have no reason to be offended by truth

I am not offended by your closing 'God Bless' either. But something about it just seems to not sit right after I read some of your responses.

I keep hearing this justification from several about the need for speaking truth. Hey...I realize it's the truth that 'sets us free'. No arguing from me on that one. But take the woman caught in adultery and brought to Jesus. No where do I see him getting in her face lecturing on how she could/should have made better choices and that she got into this mess but if she cleaned up her act, he might be able to help her out. No...I don't read any lecture there.

Pardon my biblical refrences here, but so many come to mind. Remeber the scene in the garden where Peter wants to 'defend the truth' and swings a sword (type of God's word) and cuts the ear off the soldier. If we are not careful, we can swing truth in such a manner, that it disables a person from ever hearing again. (Aren't you glad God can still put ears back on? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Someone in the thread suggested I was 'brave' for posting here. I had to smile, as I see nothing brave about writing words in a cyber medium such as this. If anyone is brave, it's the wayward spouses who find their way in here looking for help. Seems from what little I know is that the ones who really want the help, already know they screwed up and really don't need to be reminded.

Just lighten up on them a little...that's all I am asking. Without going back and reading your own history, I would think that you were probably a betrayed spouse still attempting to excercise your own personal demons. But I could be wrong...as you were to assume I was a woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(And before anyone rushes to judgment and assumes I am a WS, let me beat you to the draw and ask: Why do I have to be either?)

Peace to you JL. Don't stop doing the good you are doing. I just had to get that off my chest.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> (And before anyone rushes to judgment and assumes I am a WS, let me beat you to the draw and ask: Why do I have to be either?)
<hr /></blockquote>Then why did you assume JL was a BS?

B4L
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My struggle with a number of your responses is you seem compelled to drive home the point that a WS brought all this heartache on themself. <hr /></blockquote>B4, there is very little point in rubbing the WS's nose in the mess, and that is never JL's intention. But JL and other wise old posters can quickly detect the moment when a WS begins to slip back into 'sorry-for-myself' mode - which is often the attitude that got them into the hole in the first place. There's a natural progression from 'Poor me' to 'I'm entitled' to 'It's all YOUR fault'. In my eighteen months on the board, I've watched so many WS's waver between facing up to themselves, and escaping back into the comfort zone. It's posters like JL who patiently retrieve them, and do so out of love and generosity of spirit.

JL can be just as implacable with BS's who are slipping into self-pity mode. For which I am deeeply grateful.

TA

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by B4Long:
[QB]

Just lighten up on them a little...that's all I am asking. Without going back and reading your own history, I would think that you were probably a betrayed spouse still attempting to excercise your own personal demons. But I could be wrong...as you were to assume I was a woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<hr /></blockquote>And you would be wrong. That is the bad thing about assumptions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And I vote that you lighten up, not JL. JL is doing just fine, and we like him just how he is. He's been here doing the heavy lifting for years, and doing quite well at it too. You, on the other hand, just walked in the door last month and have no track record whatsoever.

Dern - B4Long, if JL's posts grate on you, I guess you've never read any of mine! I have to read JL's to calm down, sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Nonetheless, all observations are welcome and needed here - along with 2 X 4's and the occasional "rectal cranial inversion" accusation. Harsh we can be at times, and no doubt sometimes this is unwarranted and unnecessary - in hindsight. Some BSs and WSs in their pain and turmoil lash out and this is understandable. But I believe that JL and others who are sincerely trying to help those in pain and turmoil never are intentionally harsh in vengence.

Good luck to you and if you ever detect unwarranted harshness in any of my posts, please call me on it.

BL:

You said your piece, as you should, and that is your opinion and that is also fine. I respect it.

The point is that it is up to the receiving party of JL's comments to decide if they are helpful or not. I think the vote is in and most find his comments helpful, considerate and pertinent.

As to 7000 post, consider the experience in MB principles behind that time spent here, a very valuable asset indeed.

My only problem with you JL is you usually see to the heart of the matter faster than me and say it better.

God Bless you JL and all on this board.

Jack

Like many here, I have benefited from reading many of JL's postings. Because of this, perhaps, I have a bias. But...

B4L - Jesus was certainly caring, forgiving and most assuredly loving... But... While he did not condemn the woman caught, he did tell her; "Go now and sin no more." He left no room for her to continue in the lifestyle for which he did not condemn her.

When Jesus was in Sychar at the well, he did not condemn the woman who had had several husbands and was living with a man currently. But neither did he hide the fact. He pointed it out to her.

When Jesus found that the temple had been turned into a marketplace, he was certainly not loving in the traditional sense. He drove people out and turned over their tables. Yet this too was an act of love.

I don't want to give JL a messiah complex <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but what he does here is much the same. There are times when love means confrontation. Love is often uncomfortable. Love doesn't mean letting evil pass so that the evil-doer can be comfortable. Love means pointing out the sickness that needs to be removed. I don't know anyone who likes the dentist's drill, but we're sure glad when the decay is removed and the pain gone. Sometimes the truth hurts.

It is an act of love to speak the truth, and sometimes, as with a child, the truth most be spoken forcefully. JL does this with what I perceive to be a motivation of care and concern. While he may be wrong in his perceptions at times, I would defend his motivations and his method.

JL - I choose to think of the "hurt" you cause to be like that of the dentist's drill. And while you consider the information here (both truth and untruth), please consider your own motivations. If you are here to help, encourage and when necessary, to confront in love, then I would urge you to stay. If, however, you find something else within your heart, then your path is clear.

As one who has been helped here and as one who has had a small role in helping others here and a somewhat larger role helping others in my own circle of influence, I cannot help to believe that you are here for the right reasons, JL.

[ March 04, 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Bill Uphill ]

JL, If you read here again, could you respond to some of my responses to you? I am feeling much much better this week but would still like a last word or two from you if you can possibly spare the time!

I realize you are in the midst of considering your time spent here and whether or not, or to what extent, to continue doing what you do here so well.

Here's a plea from me to you: you have helped me tremendously. You are still doing so. Helping me to understand my H. Helping me to understand my faults, and faulty thinking.

All through my time lurking around here, this is what I've noticed.

You talk about things the other spouse might be feeling or thinking. You always stress the "might", and never force your assumption as the only possibility.

Then you focus on the behaviour of the poster (BS or WS), on what THEY can do to break through whatever impasse they are currently facing. You have an excellent ability to see through the communication problems, Mars and Venus.

And you also take the time to reflect back the poster's own words to help them to see what it is you see. This long-posting style is exactly the kind of help most of us appreciate because we can learn the most from it! And of course, you apply your experience from being a long-time MBer as additional support.

Please please, stay around. I don't accept for a moment that you focus negatively on the WS. You do for us what we need to do for ourselves, and that is to look within ourselves for what we can do better, even when we feel we've done MORE than "enough" already.

If I don't hear from you again, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You were one of the people last weekend who helped me to save ME. I cannot truly express the depth of my gratitude but I will remember you for the rest of my life.

Thank you and God bless you too.

Merge

Folks,

This is getting very embarrassing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I appreciate all of your comments, but when the talks turn to handling things as Jesus did... Let me just say that all comparisons along that line are not warrented, really NOT warrented.

But, I do thank you for your kind words.

B4Long, a few comments.

First, I was not aware that I was making an gender assumption when I typed to you, but apparently that is what I typed. My apologies.

Second, I am neither a BS nor a WS. I came here long ago when this forum was very different. There were no categories, just people posting and reading about a large number different issues in one category. I never intended to post, but just read and learn, but one day a woman posted here, and her story just got to me and I had to say something.

Her story was so tragic to me, that I felt compelled to comment and I did, and it began.

I felt your post was directed at possible harm, because in my mind anything else wouldn't have been worth the post you made. I assumed that if someone doesn't like what I say, they ignore me. I suspect the lopsided responses on this thread might suggest this is true. I don't know.

I will offer you my take on what I have learned here. One is, as has been mentioned here, the WS often comes here in the "fog". And when they are not in the fog, it is the "woe is me" take on things. IN fact as it was pointed out, the "woe is me" thinking is what often leads to affairs or at least not appreciating what our spouses bring to our marriages. You could easily classify me in the "woe is me" class when I first came here.

What I have seen and learned is that this type of thinking no matter how comforting is NOT productive, and the sooner one gets out of it the better and really this is true for the BS and the WS. So my approach is to address it, and clearly point it out. I don't care how they come out of this thinking (mad, contrite, embarrassed, whatever) as long as they come out of it. THEN they can make decisions, they can learn, and they can address their life.

I have noticed that appealing to people in this mode from the "gentile" side of things rarely works, and if it does it is a long process. Perhaps it is better. I would urge you to counter my approach with your own if you strongly feel this way. I am sure many people in the "woe is me" will feel more comfortable with your approach.

But, with WS's the big battle is with the "fog" and being subtle, appealing to their sense of fairness, responsibility often does not work, which is why it is called the "fog".

One of the things I like about the Harley approach to marriages is it is reality based. It is looking at the data, the responses, the behavior and recognizing when something can and should be done, and where one needs to ride things out. Plan A and Plan B come to mind.

But, in my mind the sooner the WS or even the BS comes out of focusing on their own pain, guilt, whatever, and focuses on their spouse the better. So I take the approach I do.

I will say one other thing. There are posters I don't post to. Sometimes it is just a matter of time, sometimes it is because the other good people here seem to have said all I could and done it much better, and sometimes it is because what I want to say is NOT going to be productive. Interestingly, there are a lot more BS's in that last category than there are WS's. So I bite my tongue and move on.

I am sorry you don't care for my approach, and if you really do think it is causing harm, I would appreciate hearing more about that. It is not my intent, but I am not here to just make someone feel good. I view this very much as a problem solving issue, and one doesn't solve problems NOT facing what has happened. I am sure you know that.

There are a few people here who I have had the pleasure of meeting in person. I think most might suggest that I am far more blunt in person than on this board. Here I do try to take the time to phrase things in an optimal way.

But, as odd as it sounds, I enjoy people and I enjoy the back and forth that goes on in this site. I enjoy watching people learn and change their perspective, and yes a few good jokes helps. This is serious stuff, but one must like this stuff to stay here and post. One may not like the situations, but the growth, the changes, and often outcome are wonderful. Perhaps it is because I am anxious to see these changes, that I push hard sometimes.

Perhaps you are right, there is a better way. I would encourage you to use it so that I may learn from it. I like learning, although it is often painful. That is why I responded to you on a separate thread. IF you have something for me to learn I would like to hear it, but better yet to show me how to do it.

I was very worried that you felt I was harming people and perhaps you do. It is not my intention, but if they get angry at me and that is a catalyst for their change then OK, I can handle that.

I look forward to your response.

God Bless,

JL