H is moving out...Plan B??? - Marriage Builders® Forums

We have had a great day! We had brunch at the Water Street then took the kids to a park right on the Ocean. they had so much fun...We talked, held hands, hugged and kissed. Before leaving for brunch I had changed our reservation for our camping trip to another cabin so we could accomodate our dogs. We talked about our upcoming camping trip. How fun it will be to get away and take all the dogs, etc...

We got back from the park and I had the confirmation in my hand and H asked if I had already paid the deposit or not? I told him that yes, I did pay the deposit and then he asked if it was refundable or not, I said I dont know, but I didn't think so...why? he said, well, I dont know if we will be going on this trip or not. If we are fighting at that time, I am not going to go...I was very calm and said to him that I didnt' think we could go the rest of our marriage without fighting, but that I didnt want to think about us NOT doing stuff or him moivng out. H admitted that it is his mentality right now that every time we fight or disagree or whatever, he gives up and wants out of the marriage.

Sooo, I asked him what he wanted to do cuz last week he said "I am going to work on this marriage, I am going to do the lessons, etc" I heard that he was going to stay in the marriage and work on falling in love with me and NOT think about moving out again...well that is not what he has been thinking all along. He told me that he doesn't KNOW if he is going to stay or not. He wanted to use this two weeks to see if he could fall in love with me or not. He is not going to fall in love with me in two weeks, but he said he is not even trying.

Anyway, I told him I do not want to be strung along and he said that some days he simply does not want to be here. Days where he is stressed or haivng a bad day. yesterday, BEFORE he even came home from the ACLS course he said he did not want to be married and wanted out. OK, does that not set us up for what happened last night or what? That proves his frame of mind.

Anyway, he is out looking at an apartment right now. Look, I dont know what I am doing. I am in such a chaotic state of turmoil, that I cant even see straight right now. Maybe this is the right thing. I am not doing any good with my destructive behaviour and he is not doing any good when he is mentally in the A still.

You guys always said that a Plan B was good for people who CANNOT do a good Plan A...well, I am not a good Plan Aer, while he is in the home anyway.

I just dont know anymore. I dont know what I want. I dont want a loveless marriage and H is convinced that he cannot fall in love with me anymore.

And just for the record, I am NOT a hard person to please...I have always been very passive in the marriage. Not making a big deal about occasions, etc..He always bought me nice things for our anniversary, like diamonds and such. An dhe said he would make this Mother;'s day up to me when he came back home. It was not the silk flowers that upset me, they are beautiful. I make silk arrangements as a hobby. I have made every silk arrangement in my home myself. It was the thought he didnt' put into it. I told him which florist to go to, cuz he ASKED ME. so I told him. I didn't say "you have to go to this florist and get this"...not I am not like that...I dont treat him as a child...he acts like a child. He is forgettful, immature and needs constant reminding of things. I am just fed up with his arrogance and attitude towards things.
I have said this before, that I come to this board to VENT my frustrations, and then I get them thrown back in my face by people. What is the purpose. Not everything I say in my posts, I say to my H....I post here for venting instead of LBing him.

if anyone would like to email me and talk to me please email or IM me. My IM handle is kcav86@msn.com and my email is momto3boys@caveda.com

In the meantime...please advice me on what plan to be in if H comes back and decides to move out. Thank you for your continuted support. I hope to hear from some of you. Thanks!

And just for the record, I am NOT a hard person to please...I have always been very passive in the marriage.

Passive people are hard to please...

Are you saying you cannot do a good Plan A?

Why not?

Pep

NO, according to many peopel on this board, I cannot do a good plan A....I am destructive..

he's gone, he's moivng out now

Are you angry with me (and others) for pointing out your mistakes and your behaviors that inflict further hurt upon your marriage?

Pep

no, I am angry at the whole situation. I am angry at myself at my H for jeopardizing everything. I am not angry at anyone here. write later...

Mom -

I know where you are at. As you know my WH husband moved out two Weds ago and has threatened to file for divorce (even saw a lawyer but he has not done anything). My WH also said he did not think he could fall in love with me again (I believe this is all fog talk). My WH is still in the mentality of the A (and he may even still be talking to her but can't prove it). I will tell you that I did not do a good Plan A when he was hear. I was constantly pushing him to work on our relationship and he was not ready to go there. I am doing so much better at Plan A now that he is out of the home. It is easier to detach myself from the situation and just focus on being cheerful and positive when he is around.

Is you husband for sure moving out?? I would suggest trying to do a good Plan A before moving to Plan B but I am still new at this too so...

Well mom, I'm with you. I know everyone here said that you should be happy with the silk flowers. But I have to disagree.

My WH is like yours, I am always last on his list. I have been too easy to please. Anything he gave me made me happy. Well guess what - each year he has given me less and less.

The Christmas before last, he got me nothing. I shopped for him, his brother and sister, his kids, and picked out nice gifts. He shopped for fellow workers, and 2 friends. He ran out of money for me. I was completely shocked.

Last Christmas he knew I wanted an aquarium. We were at Wal-Mart and he saw one for $20.00. He bought it and said Merry Christmas.

I just think that with these kind of men, if you expect very little, you will get very little. And next year you will get even less.

If WH decides to move out, let him go. Time for Plan B. Get your letter ready.

MT3B

Take it easy....

You are spinning yourself....

The hurt is making you dizzy....

You cannot recover a marriage until you find your own feet in recovery....

I don't want you to lose your marriage....

The score card has to be torn up...

There are ways to attract your husband back to you....

There are ways to push your husband away from you....

The kids are watching....

Take a breather...

Relax....

Stop making yourself someone who causes hurt to your husband...

There is no reward for calling OW names... the marriage is not about OW....

There is no reward for telling WS how he never gets it right as far as you are concerned....

Your anger is like a caustic acid ... burning you from the inside....

Relax and breathe...

I don't want you to hurt yourself, hurt your marriage, hurt your husband ....

Ask God to help you find the error or your ways...

Ask God to help you become a lighthouse in your marriage...

Stop being destructive to your own spirit...

Relax and breathe...

Pep

[ May 09, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

I know everyone here said that you should be happy with the silk flowers. But I have to disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>No one says she should be happy with silk flowers.... This is not about any flowers or any gift ...

This is not even about being happy! Who could be happy after the devistation of an affair?

This is about MT3B's behaviors that are destructive and counter-productive to marital recovery.

If something is not working to recover her marriage, she should quit doing that and find a more rewarding response.

Her behavior is hurtful and undermines her self-esteem.

And she should stop.

Pep

Mom, I have a little different perspective about your situation. I am not saying the majority's opinions here are wrong, just that I see things a bit differently. I'd be curious what Steve will tell you.

I think you have been trying REALLY hard. You seem to have been hopeful several times, and then your hope gets dashed. For example, the pill situation. For example, feeling good about going to the MB weekend, buying sexy underwear, and then having your H tell you he wants to leave you and sleep with OW. You know, as I'm writing this, I feel kind of bad about some of the reactions you got. Please, I don't want to piss anyone off for saying that. I admit I could be dead wrong. Maybe because Mom and my situation started out so similarly. It just feels like the rape victim getting blamed for the rape.

I got out my DSM-IV, which is the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Of Mental Disorders." I have read sveral times, and my therapist told me that being a BS we experience Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I just looked it up in the DSM-IV. I wish I could write everything it says, and how much it applies here. This one criteria of PTSD hit me in regards to you Mom. "Intense psychological distress at exposure to internal or external cues that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event." Every time D2 does something that reminds you of his A behavior it triggers you. And I'm sorry, it seems he has done a lot of that. I am not condoning LBing him. However, I am saying that PTSD is a real psychological disorder. Maybe that is why when a person keeps getting retraumatized by the WS Plan B is necessary.

Last night my H and I were being intimate and something occured that totally triggered me. I didn't want it to happen. 95% of the time I do a pretty good job with Plan A, but I'm human. Luckily he listened to me, held me, and we got through it. Mom, that kind of reaction might not be happening for you now because D2's head is still in the A, and frankly he actually might still be having an A. Maybe that is why you are so frustrated. Truthfully I don't know what I would do in your shoes.

I hope you still feel free to come here and vent. Sometimes we just have to get it out. I would recommend the Retrouvaille Weekend if your H is not still in the A. There are great communication techniques to help in dealing with feelings without judgement. Hang tough! CV

Hi MT3B,

I'm sorry for the latest news. I know it's not easy, I went thru recovery after my H's first affair and we made it another 7 years, so I do know what you're feeling because my ex-H was not remorseful in the least, and he felt nothing but entitlement.

There's a way to look at how to approach recovery IMVHO. Think back to when you were dating your husband. You had no expectations and would not have been dissapointed with some of the recovery things he's done recently. He's making attempts, it's HARD for him too. He made a mistake, a terrible mistake, he knows that and he is still trying to get grounded.

I've read that most males, when faced with recovery of a marriage after an affair, fear more than anything the resentment. I see that in your words hon. And I recognize it from experiencing it myself.

If your love bank for your H is near empty, then perhaps Plan B is where you should be, according to Harley that's the Plan B indicator.

Are you losing love for your H? Does your resentment outweigh any love you have left for him?

Jo

mom -

Listen to everyone else. I think they are much more experienced than me. But I do know how you feel. I am not the right one to advise you. My kids are out of the house and I am pretty much done with WH.

You still have kids at home, so listen to others. But I do know EXACTLY how you are feeling. Do not feel guilty about it. You deserve to feel like you do.

Mom, everyone here has fallen in love with you, and in our own way, we are all trying to help you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CV55:
 It just feels like the rape victim getting blamed for the rape.<hr /></blockquote>You're not the first one to raise this thought, CV. Often, it is put like this: "My spouse is the wayward one who has caused all this damage, why am I the one who is expected to play nice and make everything alright again, as if I am the one to blame?"

Plan A isn't easy. And mom, I think you have made some good attempts at Plan A. You fall short when you get panicked, or when you don't feel like you've seen change, or enough of it, and you react. It's during these times when you need Plan A the most, when you go on autopilot and do things contrary to what your emotions are telling you.

You bite the bullet when he acts selfish and you put on a pleasant face. Sound like a doormat? No. You get your chance to show your pain and hurt, too, at the right times and in the right ways. Uncontrolled, seat-of-the-pants reactions will get you nowhere.

I know you have had some success doing Plan A mom. I think you have tasted the success. Give some thought to how you can do it more consistently, when you are stressed, or it all seems to be falling apart. Like right now.

What will you say to Dad when he comes back from apartment hunting? Possibilities:

a) "It's just like you to quit when things get tough. Let me help you pack!"

b) "I know you're thinking about her and you just want to be with her, so go do it! Don't let us stand in the way!"

c) "I know I haven't been easy to live with. I know you've been trying. Maybe it is best we separate for awhile to cool down."

d) "I know things seem bad right now. I get so confused. One minute I think things are going well and the next I am afraid that I am losing you. I react to my strong emotions because I love you so much and I want us to survive. It hurts me to the bone to see your confusion and sometimes the pain is so deep that I lash out. Maybe you're right about moving out. But in my heart I don't think that is the answer. I would prefer to keep working with SH and trying to get my emotions under control."

Give it some thought, Mom. What do you want to convey to Dad now, in the present situation? Then give some thought to HOW you will say it, using lots of "I" sentences. Convey your very real pain, without defensiveness and LBs. You can do it!

~ Snow

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It just feels like the rape victim getting blamed for the rape.
<hr /></blockquote>Marital recovery cannot begin with one spouse feeling like a victim, BS OR WS.

As long as a BS wants to wallow in the unfairness, and the trauma and the drama of their WS's A, instead of moving forward in a productive, positive manner their will be no NEW marriage to BUILD. In this situation, these 2 partners have equal responsibility for the demise of love in the marriage. When a BS casts themselves in the victim mode and cannot see the old marriage through their WS's eyes, resentment is certain. Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />he said that some days he simply does not want to be here. Days where he is stressed or haivng a bad day. yesterday, BEFORE he even came home from the ACLS course he said he did not want to be married and wanted out. OK, does that not set us up for what happened last night or what? That proves his frame of mind.
<hr /></blockquote>I see you being quick to blame him for "setting us(you) up" in your behavior. How he acted or felt could not MAKE you behave in any other way than that of your own choosing. It's not his fault for how you react.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Not everything I say in my posts, I say to my H....I post here for venting instead of LBing him.

<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I said " but you CAN be" meaning he never gets me anything ahead of time and he never really THINKS of me...I tried to explain to him that he CAN think of me more and make me happy...but he just doesn't..never has, not sure if he EVER will!
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I said "when is it going to sink in with you"
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just looked at him and said "oh your still mad at me cuz you cant go to Josh's house"
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I said to him that I thought he couldn't handle all this...this being honest and such... <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I said "well, that's just it, you never want to talk about anything, you just shut the door" <hr /></blockquote>You told us exactly what you said Mom. This wasn't a vent to prevent a LB. However you want no constructive critism. For some reason it has to be about all the things he is so lousy at and how much he needs to fix and how disappointed you are, how he is so immature and needs to be reminded of everything. You say you don't treat him like a little boy but all of what you write shows us exactly how you DO do that. You get mad when we point it out, you do not want to see that you've got lots of work to do. I do not see you taking ownership of your part in the demise of your marriage.Why do I say that? Because your focus is on H. It's one thing to say you're changing but YOU would be farther along in recovery if you were DOING what you need to do as much as you SAY you are. The plan works but it has to be followed on both sides. Neither one of you is working the plan at this point, you just say you are.

If you don't want me to post to you just say the word, no hard feelings. I just see no reason to not give what is honest feedback. I will not support a pity party, it's simply not constructive to building a healthy new marriage. You've got to get honest with what your part in all this is if you want to build a better marriage and have a H who desires the same thing. Wishing you all the best!

Well, Iwish I'd of seen this post earlier! he's gone...HIS decision. snowbelle, I think I said all those things to him. he came home, said he put down deposit, but couldn't move in til Firday! I'll make a loooong afternoon short.

I just cant stand the pain. In my mind I am thinking we will work on this marriage, fall in love again, and live happily ever after. In HIS mind he is thinking he will work on the marriage, but he KNOWS it wont work out so he is ready to leave any minute now. His exact words "eventually i am probably going to leave anyway".....OK, so why torment me this way?

He packed his bags and lolly gagged for hours. Asking me if I want him to leave. Told him that he knew my answer. I told him that No I dont want him to leave, I want him to love me and stay here forever, but he doesn't want that! I told him I felt like I was living in a fantasy of my own having these thoughts of a happy family with two people in love with each other and growing old together, when that thought is the furthest from his mind. My kids were in teh backyard playing so happily and tears started rolling down my face. I held them back this whole time.

After an hour or so, I asked him if HE wanted to leave and he said "i dont know what I want" I asked him to clarify that for me...you dont know what you want NOW, TOMORROW, IN A WEEK, or IN A YEAR? He said "YES"

At one point he said "well, will you take me back in a few weeks" or something like that..I cant remember the exact wording...and my response was that he just cannot let me go..he wants me to still hold on the assumption that he IS going to come back...is that fair to me? He said it is just too painful to leave me!

anyway, he finally left and I asked him to take a good look around and to make sure he knew what he was leaving...he said he didnt' want to look, it was too painful.

He SWEARS he is not still in the A!!! I asked him if he was leaving to be with her and he said "no, that is not going to solve my problem and besides that, if I be with her then that ruins any chance of me reconsiling with you"!

God, I am so confused...he says these things and then doesn't do what his heart is telling him. Cant you see the love there? I know he does love me...what is it going to take?

I was great in my Plan A when he was oiut of the house! You ALL know that! I was great for about 3 or 4 weeks after he moved back home...I was great as a matter of fact until OW called him that day and he went back to Day 1! That is it! By golly! we WERE doing good until that day!

We had such a great day today! I asked him what changed and he said that, that is just the way it is...one minute you can be one way and the next you can be another way! the ROLLERCOASTER!

I think that this is the best thing. I really do...I dont know if I should do a plan A or go into B! He is not with OW..I am certain of that...

I said when he left to make sure this is what he wanted and he said "I may be back in 1/2 hour"

So now what?

No, I dont want anyone to stop posting to me...I know that I have had a hard few weeks. I have felt myself Pulling away from him. I am angry, and that is one of the healing processes to go thru, and unfortunately I cannot deal with it without resentment. I probably do resent him...I dont know...I do know that I dont really want to see him right now or talk to him...not because I am angry, but because it is just too painful.

Maybe, just maybe a Plan B will be what will work for him..I dont know, but I know that he doesn't want to be here nore do I want him to be here if he doesnt' want to be.

Also, anytime I have LB'd him, I always apologize for my behaviour in which h=case he comes back and says "no need to apologize, I deserve it all" I will say No you dont....anyway, must go do something to keep myself busy!

Please help me with my letter and what plan I need! I also need to figure out a visitation schedule! God help me!

momto3boys,

Review your plan A and laid down plan B ...

If you had a good plan A then serve him w/ plan B otherwise you have to close that plan A holes.

-rh-

This translation is from the alien to English dictionary.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> eventually i am probably going to leave anyway <hr /></blockquote>Means: I am having serious doubts that you can change

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "i dont know what I want" I asked him to clarify that for me...you dont know what you want NOW, TOMORROW, IN A WEEK, or IN A YEAR? He said "YES"
<hr /></blockquote>Means: I have the same desire you do, to grow old together, but it HAS to be better than it has been for me to want to move forward.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />he said "well, will you take me back in a few weeks" <hr /></blockquote>Means: I need some peace. I need time to think and find out what I have become and where I want to go. I think I already have the answer (YOU) and want some reassurance you want the same thing too BUT I still need some time to reflect and be sure you can change.

I am sorry MOM,

I am sorry also because I dont believe he is not still in the A. Where is he tonight? Where is he staying until Friday? OW has been too silent. Her call was to stir the pot and it worked.

I know you are hurting. I personally think you did much better than I would have.

I dont understand the mentality to save your marriage no matter what. abuse is abuse whether it's emotional or physical. Your H was very emotionally abusive to you. In my opinion you responded to that abuse period.

I hope Tx is a no fault state. Because I had other thoughts to why WS did the things he did.
Funny, all this has been done to NO THOUGHTS of those 3 boys. I hope he is a better physician than he is Father.

I am sorry if I hurt you, it's the last thing you need right now. I just never trusted the things your H was doing. Just a GUT feeling, more so the way you were reacting. I dont think the A ever stopped at least the emotional part.

I hope I am wrong.

Mom it's far from too late.

You need to plan a while your H is away.

Heck I could not Plan A more than a couple of weeks with my H fence sitting. It is easier when they are gone.

I don't think your H wants some LVN form a nursing home, when he has you and his 3 beautiful boys. He wants you but he wants and must have respect and admiration from you. You have a hard road cut out for you because he will ALWAYS have others who will shower him with respect and admiration in the workplace. When he doesn't get it at home it's just that much more obvious for him. You can do this. I did it and I'm about the most stubborn wench you'll ever come across. I think you both a need a good MC in the here and now in addition to Steve, someone who can reteach you and H how to communicate fairly and lovingly without all the negative garbage getting in the way.

Dr. Laura's book will give you some good insight into your H's emotions and state of mind. I don't always agree with her, sometimes I don't even like her, but her book is timeless advise for married women desiring to have a fulfilling marriage.

Let him go, help him go, tell him you love him, be the best you can be and create some mystery.

My Plan A sucked the last few weeks..I think you know that rh! I guess I need to do a good one for a few weeks..but I dont know if I am capable right now. I am very angry and upset and you name it. a lot of emotions going on.

mth, I hope you are right about what you say!

Stressed...no you did not hurt my feelings. They are alreayd hurt, but I am much stronger now then I was a month ago! I agree that he is still emotionally and mentaly involved in the A with or without OW. And I really dont think he has seen her. I just dont know what to think or do at this point. I have no idea where he is tonight. Maybe a Hotel...maybe his office...I dont know, but that is his problem.

I have pulled away from him since that day that OW called. Ever since that day, he has been different. Never the same. I even told him this week that I wanted to go with him to the NH to make an appearance. He said that was fine. HAHA! wel, that wont happen now, will it! Oh well, my boys and I will be fine without him...anyone want to go camping with us in June?

Hi Mom -

So sorry to hear the latest news... You sound strong - I hope you are not hiding behind a mask! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

IMVVHO, you should continue to plan A him. You'll find it's much easier when they're not around 24/7. You know how grounded I am in plan A, though, so take my advice for what it's worth!

Hugs to you,
- WHB

For the next fews days Mom.......do nothing. DO not react to your H's news, just let it be. He's not expecting you to be calm about this so give him a pleasant surprise. It will also start him asking questions in his head.

You do not have to Plan A with him gone forever; just long enough for him to see genuine changes in you and miss the life a family brings. If he continues to fence sit after several months then there is always Plan B.Time is on your side, do not make any hasty decisions or actions. He's got to get a glimpse of what a wonderful wife he'll be losing before he's going to buy into doing all the hard work it's going to take to build a new, better marriage. Believe it or not you can start RIGHT NOW to bring him back home to you.

I wouldn't give you my advise if I hadn't been so successful with it bringing my own H home to me and my kids.

Please tell me what I can do RIGHT NOW! What do I do if he calls? Answer the phone? of course, but what do I say? I am such a mess!

BTW, my eamil wont let me reply to those who have sent me emails!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm working on it...I did get your emails and I thank you for your support!

Plan A in mind and don't talk R ... just talk about the boys and thing that you do. Ask him what hi is doing too ... NO R talk.

If he started and you feel you are not ready you just say "I can't talk about it right now, I am not ready and stil hurt. Could we talk tommorow about this ?" Don't wait for his answer, change th subject right away.

You could do it.

-rh-

Mom -

Although I am new at this I will tell you what I have been doing. If my WH calls I answer the phone and I talk to him. I simply just talk, not about the relationship or what he is doing. My WH tends to get cranky if he thinks I am checkin up on what he is up to.

If your husband calls just act calm and talk sweet. Don't say anything about the relationship or even ask him where he is.

My first few nights without my WH were tough but I am doing great now and I will tell you that Plan A is MUCH easier when they are not in the house. I would also agree with I doubt that he is out of the A. My husband changed all of a sudden too. We were making progress and then OW appears and he is acting odd. You said that your dad starting acting funny after OW called. Seems odd huh??

Stay strong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Redhat's advise is right on the money Mom. Calm, supportive, concerned, always and loving when you can manage it.

No relationship talk, no educating, no questions, no guilt provoking, no begging.

Instead; calm, composed, CONFIDENT, pleasant, assured, positive, and again, when you can manage it loving.

You can do this! Do not spend your emotional energy thinking and wondering about him. You cannot control what he thinks or does so spend that energy on your plan for improving you. Be diligent, be consistent, be positive. Show him attractive qualities and make them a part of who you are on a daily basis. Hard? No worse than hard, especially when you feel as if you are dying inside but you desire a new, better than before marriage so you've got to do everything you can trying.

What you do right now... is start healing YOU. That's going to be tough, but it's very, very important.

You have a wonderful opportunity here -- you have the chance to let out ALL the awful emotions and to treat your Self well. Just listen to it all as it goes through your head. Listen and listen, and walk and walk. And breathe and pray if that's something you do. Whether you pray or not, spend time listening to your own breath... it's so important right now. Just listen as much as you possibly can.

And let yourself grieve. You don't know yet what you're grieving for, and that's all right.... all you need to know right now is that something is broken and terribly frightening and it's okay to grieve.

Not to attack your husband, for he is not the source of this breaking. This is a breaking within you, dear Mom.

Inside, there is gold. But the breaking is still painful. So grieve.

Thank you so much for all of your continued support! It means the world to me! Everthing is so overwhelming right now, but I think that in my heart I could see this day coming.

I know I am a strong person, I think I proved that when he moved out last time. I know how easy it was for me to do a GREAT Plan A then...but can I do as good or even better this time. While I am so angry and frustrated!

He called me about 30 minutes ago. He was at his office! An hour away. First thing he said was he didnt' know what he was doing there! he said it just didn't feel "right" it all feels so wrong..I think his exactl words were "this all just feels soo wrong, just so wrong, this is all wrong" i said "as opposed to what? What is right?" He said "being home with you and my kids with my family" I said "yes, it is, but you have to WANT to be here"...I was very calm and collected. I think. I was pleasant but not overly excited or anything. I just acted normal. I wasn't panicky or begging or anything like that. I let him talk and I said a few things. He said "I feel really sh!tty right now" I said "what do you mean" and he said that he just felt sick about it and it just didn't feel right what he was doing. He also said that maybe he NEEDED to feel sh!tty so he can have it all hit him.

I dont know...I told him I didn't know what to say to that. I didn't want to say "well, yea, you [censored]! I just said nothing really. Then the 3 y/o was crying and I had to calm him down. You know everyday normal things around here. He kept asking about the kids and what they were doing. Wanted to know what I was doing.

Some things he said earlier this week I remember we were in the garage and I told him I wanted to go to the NH with him...he said ok, that is fine, but why? and I explained to him that I needed to expose myself as a real person to these people and let them know who I am...He said that I didn't need to worry about going to all the NH, just the ONE NH..I said, no, I need to go to all of them, cuz it can happen anywhere...then he said "this will NEVER happen again, NEVER" I said "how are you so sure" he said he knew he was sure..he would never do this to me again.

I do believe in his heart he wants this to work out with us..but his head and heart are not in sink right now. Making it difficult.

Please tell me...should I just go on about my everyday normal life, making it clearn to him that I can survive without him or will that push him away and let him think...ok, she is fine without me, I can move on...I am sooo confuse...I know I ahve been thru this before...why cant I remember what to do!

Mom, you did really well.

I have no experience of this as I never moved out, although I did want to at one stage, simply to get my head round things. H threatened to leave as well at one stage when he just couldn't see his Plan A working. But that's behind us now.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think you two are going to make it. Don't take him back too soon - I, for one, don't think he's seeing the OW. I think he genuinely needs the time. Which doesn't help you now but I think it will in the long haul.

Jenny

Mom,

That looks like a good sign! I am very happy for you. Just hang in there, you are doing well not asking for confirmation or reassurance. I know you are very strong, and your strength shows up positively. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Just continue to show him what he is missing in the home he left. It's unfair for BS to have to keep the family and the home together, but it feels just so good to hear that he feels it is not right being out there!

Thank you guys! I just sent him a text msg...figured it was better than a phone call as I may say something I am not supposed to over the phone...here is what I sent him

"just want you to know I DO luv U! This is hard on both of us! I hope that you can see clearly someday and we can move forward!"

I went back and forth with that seeing clearly one, I didnt' know if that would be an LB or not, but I was pretty limited with the amount of characters I could type in.

I hope I am doing the right thing..if not..I think I will be ok...I dont know if he is reading these or not, I know he has a computer at work, But I dont know if he would log onto MB or not!

I think i am going to head on to bed now...TRY to get some shut eye! I dont sleep well when he is gone. I keep waking up in the middle of the night HOPING every car that goes by is his coming home! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

momto3boys,

Even deep in his fog dadto3boys loves you and know what he supposes to do but unable to get his heart going. You did good no LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> .

You should not hide your pain and hurt but you should hold LB'ng.

You should show strength but not pushing him away ... I am fine w/o you but I prefer you stay here and working on M. You can't negotiate from a weakness you have to be at least on the equal footing w/ WS.

Have you evaluate your plan A ?

-rh-

Thank you rh!!! I haven't evaluated anything...I dont even think I HAVE a Plan A right now! I know I have a headache <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I know I didnt' have a Plan A the last few weeks...I do need to reevaluate everything. But how? Maybe we can talk about it tomorrow? on IM? I need to get some sleep righ tnow! I am beat!

Thank you to you all for your continued support and reassurance! I look forward to waking up and reading the rest!

Just IM me when you see me available or get Lulu. I know I won't be available from 11:30am-1:30PM ... I am meeting someone for lunch date <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . -rh-

Hi Mom and all.
The thing is, with all this good advice, your H probably reads what you and others write here on the MB since he used to write also as 'dadto3boys'!

He will feel like he is being manipulated by the advice of how to be extra pleasant, sweet, kind, loving, respectful etc. (All of those things we should be everyday, however, he may think it is just an act!)

I feel for most of us BW's, it was better that our H's weren't reading here and learning our 'secret tactics!'
Love, Julie

good for you rh! I hope you have a great date! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Julie, IF dad is reading these posts, well so be it...he knows all the MB concepts as we have been studying them for weeks now and we went to the seminar, so nothing is going to be new to him as far as the way I act and stuff...I did a good Plan A last time and he knows I am changing, but he has to be willing to change and WANT to change as well....If he thinks that I am manipulating him, then he needs to get over that. I will do everything I can to SAVE my marriage, but I WILL NOT be a doormat nor will I put up with his waffling or fence sitting any longer. I do love him, but I love the man I married, not the man he has become since he had this A.

Dad isnt going to have time to read anyway..the only puter he has is at work and he wont be there after today, unless he sleeps at his office all week. real comfortable without a bed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well, That's it! I'm done with him...he was with her last night! Didn't take him long did it! He just made up his mind! I hope she was well worhth it and I hope she is worth the family he has just given up!

Mom...very sorry to hear your latest story.

I was like you...hoping that MB will help our WH until i realised that there is only so much we can do for them. WS have to go through the whole process and see the light for themselve.

It is time you look after yourself. Plan B will help you.

Our WS are acting like teenagers...we need to be the adult here. Let them be.

Hi 'Mom'.
How did you find out that he spent the night with the OW?

I guess 'Stressed out Mom' had it right that he was not telling the truth and he would probably end up with the OW!

What a liar he has become to try and hide his tracks; no man or woman should have to live in a marriage filled with unfaithfulness!

I see you are thinking of doing a Plan B now; it sounds like a good plan for you. Perhaps your greatest hope of saving your marriage!

Good luck staying firm in it.
Love, JUlie

Ok mom - how do you know he was with her??? I am sure you are angry and hurt as I know I am knowing that when my husband moved out he was probably with OW as well. Re-evaluate...do you want to lose your family or do you want your husband back?? Plan A him. Show him that you are better than OW. You are strong and you can show him that your marriage is worth it.

Hang in there!! How are your boys doing?? I know my D is having a hard time with Dad moving out.

Julie, I dont know if I want to save it now! That is TWO affairs now...regardless with same OW or not, in my book it is two affairs. he ended the first one and had NC for almost 6 or 7 weeks and now he is back with her.

I asked him yesterday if he was going to call her or be with her and he flat looked me in the eyes and said NO, I am not going to be with her. Talk about betrayed! What an [censored]!

I found out by calling him and asking him where he slept last night cuz I called the office and he didnt' answer. I asked if SHE was with him and he moaned and said NO...I said you called her though, right and he didnt' say anything...I said oh, it didn't take you long...I asked him if he had fun last night and he said NO, I didnt'! I said well, you slept with her didnt' you and he didnt' say anything...I said you just answered my question..he said Yea I guess I did...I said I sure hope she was worth me and your family GOODBYE! and hung up! I then sent him a text message saying...

"didnt' take long did it? I hope she is worth everything you are about to give up...you two deserve each other!"

Sorry, If I have lb'd, but I dont give a [censored] right now. what a LIAR and SOB! I am sick...just sick. Yes, I could have kept him here yestedya. All's I had to say was ok, dont go, you can stay...but I sent him on his way. I kicked him out. Well, I am so glad I did so he can be happy now!

Hope, my boys dont know anything. They went thru hell last time. and I am not going to put them thru that again. I will tell them when the time is right. I have to go into Plan B. I dont know if I want him back. He knew my boundries and he crossed them.

It is okay to LB...it is part of the process...i said some words along those lines you have text message him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We BS will also have to go through the same old symptom so it is okay. Vent it all out then get back into your plan.

WS will have to go through the YO-yo process before they actually come home for good. One minute they say yes and then the next minute no. Hang in there. You are a strong woman. You can make this work.

Mom, I'm sorry for what you are going through. For myself I would rather deal with the truth. Now you know what you are dealing with. Frankly D2's behavior doesn't surprise me at all. There have been red flags throughout for you. After my H's OW left his business and he resumed phone contact for those 2 weeks I knew something wasn't right. When he fessed up and the true NC began I saw progress being made. Before the NC something just didn't feel right.

Concerning my comment to you that some folks have commented on, about the rape victim being blamed for the rape, I'd like to clarify. Sorry if I offend anybody, but I wasn't referring to Mom's H, but to comments made to Mom on this forum. I think we all need to be 2x4ed occasionally. I've gotten my share of them. However, if it can be done with some gentleness or humor. Also, just like it is important to use "I" statements with our Ss, I believe we should attempt to minimize the "You" statements on here also. I think Mom's frustration, which was coming out in her posts, had to do with dealing with a lying H.

Mom, how did you deal with your boys the last time? My boys are teenagers so what I told my H might not apply to you. I made it clear from the beginning if he left our family he would have to tell the boys about the A and OW. I know that scared the crap out of him. If he was going to leave our boys they were going to know why.

I'm praying for you Mom! CV

After my H's A last year and 'promising' to give it up (even sending a N/C email), he was grumpy for 2 months until I couldn't stand it any longer. He acted like he didn't want to be with us any longer... I asked him to move out and he was gone the next day...and contacting the OW that night.

It was the best thing that could have happened. He had fantasized about her for months, thinking aobut her constantly. Always looking at that green gras on the other side of the fence and longing for it. He got to the other side of the fence and it wasn't all that. Then he started to look back at his family. Here he was, a grown man living in a one bedroom apt, missing his family, and the OW didn't have the blush he once thought.

Give her a chance to show her true colors. Yes, the A was probably still going on, or simmering under the surface. It is a fantasy, and what better way for the bubble to burst than to have them face reality.

I would Plan A for a few more days/weeks, then BAM, Plan B. Plan B is NOT for those that can't do a Plan A, but for those who have done a stellar Plan A and it's not enough to get WS off the fence (some WS are VERY stubborn).

How to Plan A...no mention of OW except to say, "I'm sad you are spending time with her." Invite him over for dinners or desserts...be SWEET!!! Fulfill his needs, the guilt will KILL him. Then Plan B, he may not SEEM to notice at first, but OW cannot fulfill his needs as weel as YOU, and he will become STARVED for you.

Do not let him move back so soon until some REAL changes have been made.

Have you started working on your Plan B letter?

Mom - I agree with the last post. I could tell that something was going on with WH. We made progress the first two weeks and then it was downhill from there. I still have no proof but I am positive he is back in contact with OW.

Anyway I would be interested in what you told your boys last time. My D thinks that mom and dad were fighting and dad left because of that. She blames me partially for her dad not being there. It is very frustrating but I don't want her to think bad of her father.

CV, first off, I want the thank you for your continued support and understanding about my LB's and frustration! You and I are sooo incredibly similar and so incredibly in the same situation that I think we can relate better to each other and you can see my frustration come out in my posts. It does hurt when people dont understand that I am just frustrated and trying to cry for help then I get bashed here. My H has been lying all this time. I dont know about what, but I will soon find that out!

StillHere and Hope, thank you for your posts...I think you may have nailed it StillHere!

H called a bit ago. I answered and this is how it went:

me: HELLO

H: Hello

me: yes

H: when I get out of the clinic, we need to talk.

me: oh really, what about?

H: about me calling OW in front of you and ending this once and for all

me: oh really, is that right?

H: we need to start over from the beginning and I need to stop this NOW..this has gotten way out of control.

me: yes it has

me: you slept with her last night and now you want to talk and work things out?

H: No, I didnt' sleep with her, she was on her period, so we didnt' do anything?

me: why'd you call her

H: I'm weak!

me: yea

me: ok, fine we will talk when you get home

H: Ok, bye

Well, there you have it..maybe seeing OW last night he realized this is not what he wants. Life is NOT greener on the other side. I dont know what to do. I think he DOES want me and his family and he DOES want to work on the M, but how can I be sure he will committ this time! I have to set some boundries if he wants back in here. Obvioulsly my boundries didnt' work last time...he wants to call her in front of me...should I just go to NH with him and have him end it in front of me and the staff! Also, he needs to write another NC letter, right?

I am so confused!

NO plan B letter right now...

you can't send the letter yet...ESPECIALLY till you know what you WANT!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
take a few days...

go dark though...as if in plan b....

If you send the letter now he will say it's just out of hurt and spite and blah blah blah..

say nothing now....
no "taunting"

perceive that every emotional outburst right now will be blown off ....and feed in to his "your just emotional"..."i know you are upsetl... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> "

you want his attention..
you want him to realize how dead on ball serious you are about dealing with him and his crap right now.....

emotional control....

this is not about her at all....

this is about him.....

and momto...
I am sorry that people can be so hurtful...

ARK

Wow, what a call...he's either a fast learner...or a VERY slow one.

This is an interesting opportunity. He still wants you both I think. There are going to need to be necessary requirements for him to renew the M. Firstly, and one many of us (me included) have tried to hammer home with Dad...QUIT THE NH!!! There can be NC if they still have the opportunity to sneak glances, phone calls, and quiet moments. Especially since the staff seem to be behind them, and it is off-limits territory for you.
Second, work the MB program. Third? What else?

There is always the threat that he could go back to this again and again. So, how do you make your M affair-proof, again? Pull back your Taker. She is out in full force expecting Dad to treat you better. Expecting to be treated like a Wife...true, not unreasonable expectations, but when you EXPECT it and it doesn't come, you harbor resentment that comes out as LB's...especially DJ's.

Don't expect anything from him right now...let go of that resentment. You don't have to gush and be all over him, but pull back the defensive claws.

This may be a good sign, or may be an opportunity for him to play both sides. See how serious he is, and if he's willing to give up the NH...or she's willing to quit.

Ark, thank you for your continued support! yes, it does hurt when people here bash me, especially when I am obviously reaching out for help and I am ALREADY hurting. I have said this before that I use this place as my safe haven. I appreciate al the support I get, good and bad, but when it comes out as harshly as it has been, it really hurts. But thank you for understanding.

StillHere..I had to laugh at your response.

One thing I want to ask ya'll...I want to know if H has been seeing her during this entire time we have been "working on the M" (yea right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) But I know it will kill me if he says YES they have been...so should I ask him or not? should I just let it go and go forward? I am afraid that I will not be able to let him back in if he says he has been seeing her! It hurts so bad just thinking it!

I really wanted this to last a bit longer so I can get the resentment out of myu system if you know what I mean. I am so angry right now, what if I cant go back into a plan A?

I just dont know what to do and how to act! I am so hurt, angry, resentful towards him and he knows it...but yet he is willing to come home and he wants to work it out now. I have got to get some boundries written out...help me please set some...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
I just dont know what to do and how to act! I am so hurt, angry, resentful towards him and he knows it...but yet he is willing to come home and he wants to work it out now. I have got to get some boundries written out...help me please set some... <hr /></blockquote>React like when you were in that Indian Rest. No LB but assertive. I love you but you have to be willing to let me in.

What to do ?. I would Not go to plan B. He needs help to get away from OW ... this is normal case, you should be there to help him out. As I had suggested, you should review your plan A and start planing logistic of plan B (just incase).

Rather than setting boundary ... ask him what working for M means to him. POJA from there. Why ?. This is your plan A ... rather than whipping him with demands ... let him ammends you.

-rh-

MOM, I am so sorry for what is going on. You are always in my mind. I read all your 4 pages here before i even posted. Did you ask Dr. Harley? What did he say?

In my opinion, Dad knows what is right and he will come back. He just need some space and time to think. If he is home, and you don't give him the presurre, he will be colse to you. But from what i saw, you are giving him all the stress he doesn't need. I am not saying that you are not hurting and frustrated, but you have to controll it and let them out the right time, not now. I I were you, I will just act as a good wife and not to react to any of his behavior. I know it is hard to do than say. But no matter what you do, we are always here to support you. Do take the hard words personally.

We Chinese have a saying: good medicnes taste bitter, good advice hurts your ears.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
I really wanted this to last a bit longer so I can get the resentment out of myu system if you know what I mean. I am so angry right now, what if I cant go back into a plan A?
<hr /></blockquote>You have to plan A ... you have no choice. Think about your 3 boys ... think about he would call OW everytime you are lb'ng. Think about that he could just slipped again to OW ...

If you make him stay out there ... you fails him this time. He asks you to help him NC w/ OW but you say no.

I don't know ... he has ego yet he came to you and asked your help, you better be there for him, you, & your 3 boys.

-rh-

[ May 10, 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

Mom,

Since the dynamic between you and Dad has been somewhat of a parent-child relationship - you being the one who defines the boundarie and rules of the game, and him - the adolescent for whom the world revolves, and he's out to prove his manhood by violating boundaries....

My suggestion is step back, have no solutions. Make him work to convince you that he is really truly commited. If he's still fence-sitting, trying to make this about your love busting (which doesn't help you, but isn't the reason he went running back to the vomit - biblical reference to dogs you might want to check out) when it's really about him wanting Wendy Lady to take care of Peter and the lost children while he has his adventures in the NH.

Wendy needs to retire her problem solving role. Dad knows enough tools. It's time for him to develop the plan of reconcilliation - because he blew yours up.

momto...

We were posting at the same time...so my post doesn't apply to your newest bit of info...of him calling today and wanting to talk...

you are very strong if you were able to take that call....

My reference to people being cruel was not to posters here...but your husband and OW... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

IF you are going to talk today...you let him do ALL the talking....
ALL THE talking...
see what he brings to the table..

babble back...
lots oohhh
hhhmmmmmm
I see.....
alrighty then....

not to much information from you...
not a lot about your expectations...

let him talk the talk....

be as kind as you can.....
to save your own control and sanity....

ARK

Excellent idea KA.

I think when you talk with him your few words would be "So, what's your Plan?" And POJA from there.

I hear all of you...as you all were posting here, I was making out my boundry list! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I didnt' have many if ANY boundries last time, and maybe that is where I wetn wrong. I just trusted him blindly. Obviously not working! I let him still go to the NH and let him bully me into "he can handle it"..well that proves wrong

If I let him back in without any boundries set this time, he is going to walk all over me AGAIN. I think ineed to set some boundries. Frustration and treating him as a child comes from his lack of interest and my lack of trust in him. His arrogance and all that stuff. He acts like a child, he is sooo immature and cannot handle things at all. I try so hard not to treat him like a child, but he asks for it. He is always forgetting things and he relies on me too mucch....that will stop. He will be indepentent from now on. I am not going to be his mother any longer.

Please look at these boundries I have written and let me know what you think...

Boundries

Write NC letter with MY approval

Go to NH with me and end contact

Quit NH...if you do not quit NH then

No rounding at NH ever again...all NH contact goes thru PA...PA rounds and takes all calls period!

call and let me know when you leave here and when you get there...you need to let me know where you are AT ALL TIMES

If you make a pit stop...call

Honesty and Openess...tell me your feelings and be honest with me

POJA

I don't think you should say any boundaries...until you hear HEAR what he has to say...

if you hit him with your list...he will instinctively feel/accuse of being controled...

I am not sure he has to KNOW your boundaries....
especially since I assume they are the basic..

no contact...

lots of people are giving you the same advice...this may the time for you to say NOTHING>.....

ark

Kayla, does that mean I should not set any boundries! I just dont know if I can let him back in without any. Just looked at cell bill and he has called her once this mroning already! Why does he need to call her? If heis going to end it with her!

OK, ark, I will jsut see what he has to say and see if he sets some boundries. I think he KNOWS what he needs to do..I will see if he does them! Thanks!

MOm, please read Dr. Harlye's post to you.

THAT'S IT!!!!! BY GEORGE!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Button that lip tight...and just listen...

lots of non-committing answers...

listen tonight...harder than you ever had..
let go of the great temptation to rebuttal and refute...

really listen...
say little
say back to him what he tells you...so you both are clear that he is being heard...

it's gonna be HARD!!!!
God someone would have shove taffy in my mouth...
in a huge wad....I'm sure...(yummm taffy... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

but really listen...

who knows momto..end the conversation you may decide you don't want him to move back in right now...

who knows????????

see him as much as a child of God as you can..
listen to his words....

and then take time to think....

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Also, anytime I have LB'd him, I always apologize for my behaviour in which h=case he comes back and says "no need to apologize, I deserve it all"

<hr /></blockquote>web page Words that hurt....

You never will know what he would have offered, if you put yours on the table first.

Reverse babble him.

Ark, Pep, Orchid - you're so much better at this than me.

Ultimately, Mom, he will do NOTHING that doesn't come out of his brain first. It's an ego thing he's already admitted to.

NC has to be HIS idea. Giving up the NH has to be HIS idea.

And you have to babble him into it without him thinking you directed the whole thing.

But I'm not saying let him come home, without conditions. What I'm saying is that he works to put forth a plan. If you are agreeable, then great! Let him come home. If you don't like the plan, you know the line...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just can't be enthusiastic about this. It doesn't address the issue in a way that I'm comfortable with. Is there something else you could offer?<hr /></blockquote>

Then bat your eyes and look like you're willing to work with him as soon as he shows you a workable plan! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let him sweat and know this is all his doing, because you are not IMPOSING any conditions on him. You are simply letting him POJA with you.

thank lost...I just went over there and posted! I forgot about that forum. I will see what Dr. Harley says himself, then you all know.

Haven't you guys noticed I am not good at keeping my mouth shut! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Haven't you guys noticed I am not good at keeping my mouth shut!

As a matter of fact.... I have noticed! Funny you should mention this!

I went to an Al-Anon meeting Saturday ...

And I realized

I have to SHUT MY MOUTH when I am around my son.... cuz' I impede HIS progress everytime I try to help him...

"The art of shutting up".... sounds like a best seller in the making.

Pep

MOM,

Doc already knows your boundries. He crossed them on purpose, without regard to your feelings or your children's.

I posted before that I felt he was still in contact with her, if not Physcially than definatly emotionally. He was more cocky and mean than confused and remorseful. Plus the OW went quite. I dont think that would have happened
I think she would have continued to stir you up.

As far as the NH, he needs to resign. He has demonstrated that he cannot "handle" things professionally between OW and himself.

I dont know if I would trust a phone call with you two together, seriously he has shown he is weak and he did call her this AM...Maybe to warn her of this call???

I am sorry MOM you dont deserve this. This is seriously a breech of trust. He even told you he was going to do this (your MB weekend). He wanted 2 weeks to get her out of his system <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I tell ya, a steep child support payment and some alimoney, NOT to mentin a few sales of his cars...would be like a FOG horn dont ya think?
I bet his NH LVN aint worth all that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

If you are willing to save your marriage yet again, make sure he aint fence sitting. Seriously, I feel he is playing both ends of this because he just does not know what he wants.
He tells you what you want (we will call OW together) and Lord knows what he is telling her.

I cant comment on the plans, I dont know them
The experts here can help with that.

I wish luck and all the best. I will pray that you and your children are shielded from these childish games your H seems to be playing.
Love your son's and yourself. Your H seems to be taking care of no 1.
Take care MOM

Mom, I'm going to ask a question to the experts here about your situation. I have read on here from some of the male FWSs, I can't quite remember who, that what got them off the fence was a strong W. I'm not talking LBing here. However, to be clear about what you can and can't tolerate. Maybe I'm wrong, but from my perspective letting D2 know where you stand, and allowing him to choose his course of action is not being his mother. It is treating him like an adult. I would not expect him to call you constantly. That would be way too smothering.

I understand how you want H to make his decisions on his own about the NH and OW. In my situation, when I found out about the EA, I pretty much said OW's got to go. Maybe that was not a very good MB thing to do. I was clear that I could not work with him on repairing the M if she was with him every day. H had a choice. He could dump me and stay with her, or end it with her. I remember people here on the "Just Found Out" forum were pretty strong with me even before I knew it was an EA that she had to go. So my question, is it OK for mom to be clear about what she will need before she takes H back? Also, what's wrong with mom telling H she needs some time to think? To let him know EVERYTHING isn't according to what he wants. She can be very loving when she tells him this.

Mom, concerning whether you should know if he's been seeing her this whole time...wow, that's a tough one. For me, I'd want to know. I'd want to know what I am dealing with. If nothing else for you to know that you haven't been crazy with you feelings of suspicion. That's me! If you can't tolerate the truth right now maybe it's not the right time. CV

I thought about that too Stressed. I thought he called her to WARN her of this call! "just to let you know, I am calling you in front of W, so make it look good"...I just dont know..I ahve written to Harely and will await his answer!

He has to quit that NH...maybe until he is willing to do that, then I dont let him in? NH or marriage? you pick? Money or Marriage? No amount of MONEY si worth my marriage..shows where MY priorities are and his are!

you made me laugh - I know how hard it is to keep quiet when we know the answers.

But you also have clarity about what's at stake if you don't keep quiet and make him work.

If he could become the man you fell in love with again, and the only thing you had to do was be quiet so that he had invest enough of his heart and thought energy into solving the mess he made, would you keep quiet?

You're a smart lady, Mom. I'm sure you would.

If he gets exassperated with having to sweat the details out himself and says, "WELL, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO?" That's when you know that the quiet strategy is working.

The trick is coming back with a soft answer, "I want to know that I and our sons matter more than anything else. But my ideas didn't work last time around. So I think that maybe you might have some better ideas." and say it with enough respect and honor that he gets the idea that he's man enough to handle this mess without you parenting him into it.

CV55 that was my FWH who said that my being strong is what he needed to break him out of the fog. He needed to clearly hear that he had a choice to make..no if's ands or buts!

Mom..I think you are getting good advice here...listen to what he has to say before you say anything...not just listen but really LISTEN. Let him talk...the more he talks the better you'll understand where he's coming from and understanding where he's coming from is the best way for the two of you to formulate a plan.

I too did lots of LBing about the A and OW...however...I also learned to be a good listener. We both needed to listen to each other in order to recover...we needed to listen to hard truths about each other, our relationship and the A. We then needed to be willing to work on ourselves and our M...I believe that you and your H need IC not just MC. It took both for my H and I to recover.

I too set boundaries...NC was #1 on that list and was non-negotiable...telling the truth was also on the list and non-negotiable. Beyond that I believe that our plan was jointly agreed upon plan with us both making personal and marital changes.

My H also had a boundary...if he worked on himself and our M with 100% plus effort he required me to do the same...hence IC for me...he needed to also see permanent changes in me.

Hang in there!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
Haven't you guys noticed I am not good at keeping my mouth shut! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>How is it working for you ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

This should be high on your plan A list !.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by redhat:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by momto3boys:
Haven't you guys noticed I am not good at keeping my mouth shut! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>How is it working for you ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

This should be high on your plan A list !. <hr /></blockquote>Not too good!

OK, I can do this! He is due home in about an hour! I can just be quiet! If he is serious about this, then he knows what he needs to do, right? I am so scared! I am really nervous. I just dont want to be twisted again and hurt again. I was SET for my Plan B and now he is ready to "talk"...Why do we do this...from what I see, believer keeps doing this over and over again! I dont think I could do that believer! You are strong! Or crazy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK, I need to prepare myself. I will be back after 6:00 when he leaves for work! Wish me luck! And prayers!

Tell him that you are scared ... be honest ... tell him that you don't wnat to get hurt again ... POJA with him ... let him offer you the ammends ... you could do it. I 've seen you in action when "he proposed to have 2 weeks w/ OW" ... you 've dealt with it and you could do it again.

It got nothin to do w/ luck, you could control it. You know if you plan B ... he would run to OW and 99% have PA.

Give him benefit of the doubt and if you want to plan B ... don't give him warning, just smile and do it after you talk to SH.

-rh-

rh, you make me smile! Why cant I be the way I was in that indian restaraunt all the time. i was very strong that day, wasn't I...I actually feel that strong right now. I know my limits and I know what I want. I WANT my H back and my M, but I am not going to put up with the waffling and fence sitting. I have made that clear, I think!

I need to practice my smiling and babble talk I guess!

OH wait...what about this NC thing. Should I let him call her in front of me like he wants to? Or go to the NH with him in person?

It takes practice ... this is plan A all about. You learn to modify your behavior ... sooner or later it becomes an instinct. Occational oopsh is normal, nobody is perfect.

If wants to calls her in front of you, take it but I think you should also ask H write a NC letter, complement of SAA ... you hand it to OW at NH w/o H!.

Keep contact between OW & H as minimum as possible.

One more thing, tell H that I say hello and he could call/IM me anytime.

-rh-

thanks rh! good idea of me giving NC letter without H there!

well, WH not home yet..I know he left office about 1:00, now it is 2:35..takes only one hour to get home! oh well!

Not home yet...4:00, he should have been home NLT than 2:15 if he left at 1:00. traffic is pretty much non existent here.

so when/IF he shows up...what shall I say? Did you have fun with OW? Where were you, you SOB? Hope you ahve a place to live? I am so angry, idont even know if I can have a normal conversation with him...I am shaking.

OK, lets say he stopped at NH, which he drives by on way home. Stops, OW gets off at 2:00, he is with her.

He really sounded sincere this morning...really did. he said he wanted to move forward and he was very remorseful. How am I supposed to trust this man. he hasn't even called me!

I think I need my plan B letter!

Of course you know the answer is to not say any of that no matter how much you want to!!!

Stick with the plan of listen, listen, listen...NO accusations!!!!

I know you are going nuts now but try you best to keep it together!!

Take a tranquilizer, have a glass of wine...whatever it takes...stay calm!!!

Take a walk, take the kids to the park, cool off!

Leave a note. Explain you expected him earlier and you are trying to clear your head and will be back in a bit.

you keep your trap shut...and you listen...

ark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MT3B,

I feel for what you've been going through, and I HAVE walked in your shoes, a couple times unfortuntely.

Thing is, Mom .... if you could start showing consistency and come to a resolve as to what YOU want you'd probably notice a change in your WH.

Please forgive me, but it seems you're all over the map with your emotions. That could be because you haven't come to the place where you're certain what YOU want.

Whenever your H does something you don't approve of, you bring up a whole list of things you've been hanging on to. Hanging onto all that resentment is blocking you from seeing clearly what it is YOU want.

Do you see this in yourself?

Jo

I cant take this...I called him and here is our conversation! Slap me with the 2 x 4! go ahead

h: hello

me: I guess I misunderstood you, I thought you said youwere coming by here to talk

h: I am, I am about 30 min away

me: are you with OW

h: we will discuss that in person

me: I really do not want to see you if you are still seeing her

h: we need to talk

me: did you take her to a hotel room

h: no, not at all

me: I dont think we have anything to talk about

h: we need to talk

me: talk about what

h: about the arrangements of the kids

me: What? You said this monring that you wanted to come here after work and brak it off with in front of me...has that changed?

h: no not necessarily

whatever

I am crushed. I already took a Xanax this mroning...I dont know if I can take another one. Why in the hell is he doing this to me...I was ready this mroning for my Plan A then B and then he calls me to give me yet more false hope.

I cant do this. This man is killing me!

MOM, I feel the hurt for you. I am shaking too. I know exactly that kind of hopeles, helpless, devastated feelings. Please be calm when he talk to you, don't lose control. Lots of love, hugs and prayers for you.

Mom I feel your pain right now and man this is like a soap opera <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ..on again ..off again...this guy is killing you inch by inch...I do wish you had taken the advice of the wise folks here today...I know it is hard when you are there waiting for answers...but you may be able to repair you phone conversation..again when he does arrive do not show panic....be strong..strong ...strong...if he suggests leaving ...just let him go...you cannot control him right now...remember babble...babble..keep your emotions in check...try hard hon...

I'm going to be strong and let him talk and I will listen...that is all I can do. I will let him go! I have to! I cannot take this pain anymore!

momto3boys,

I don't want 2x4 you since you have done 2x4 to yourself.

Suggestion ? ... still the same!. Listen, listen, then think, listen, listen, then think, then talk !.

Listen to what he has to proposed and I DO NOT WANT YOU TO GIVE HIM ANY ANSWER AT ALL !. Just say I think about it, gimme time to digest this.

Then go to SH for advice since our suggestions don't worth a ¢ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

-rh-

Also stop posting ... get your support system going !. IM and invite prople to your chat !.

Hi M23B,

This is my first post here I am usually a lurker on boards (dyslexic).....something keeps tugging at me to reply. Even though I am not going thru what you are. This is a great site... it has helped me in some ways. I have read some of your post and since your DH has posted here, and still waffling with ow ......I agree with this statement.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by redhat:

Also stop posting ... get your support system going !. IM and invite prople to your chat !. <hr /></blockquote>The ow probly knows about this site form DH and can counter attack your every move..... especially every mistake and LB you make. Just a thought.

Hi Mom,

Gosh! So sad for you right now.

Your best response is no response at all. After all, you really don't know what you want at this point. I guess you could say that.

"I love you but I don't know what I want."

When my H and I were at a similar point I told him I could't even guess at how his choices would affect me. I had no boundaries to lay down. I basically said: "Go ahead and do what is best for you and I'll make my own choices accordingly."

It was my completely honest reaction and it shook him to his core. I was letting him go. Maybe that is where you are now?

Saying a few prayers for you both right now.

~ Snow

hummm mom I don't know if you know, but we also have a ladies only board
Apparently there is a chat scheduled for today 8 pm. I fyou want to join

Here is the link to the ladies board

m23b,

Right now you need to pull back and let him fall. He is going to fall with or without you hanging on. If you go with him, so does your family so BACK OFF. Your children can't risk 2 stupid parents.

The dialogue you wrote is showing he is trying to make you think one thing yet he will pretend it is another. If you ignore his request or refuse to give him his thrill of abusing you (that's right dad23b, you are abusing your W just by mere association with an OW), then you will deflate his ego and A.

Don't feed or enable the A by giving him the power to make you angry and upset. DON'T!

Learn the difference between commuication with a real purpose and babbling manipulation. Oh he will whine about your ignoring him and not thinking of the children. WS are great whiners but awful diners. LOL!!!

Hold up a diaper when he whines within your presence or if he is on the phone demanding an audience or something else, then let him know you 'may' be available when he can communicate like an H instead of a WS. Let him know that you don't communicate well with a WS but your H would understand you.

The WS can't imitate an H well and visa versa. Just goes against their very makeup. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Plan A your H but plan B the Ws.

Hugz,
L.