ok---i know you've(BS) have thought about this...

Marriage Builders

the ones who have been at it as long as me and have gotten no-where. and i dont mean anyone new to this ought to even be thinking of this.....

ive been tossing around the idea of telling him ive had an affair too.

i have tried everything to break into his emotional fort knox of a vault protcting his emotions and nothing works. any ideas about this and have you ever thought of it yourself. i know i cant be alone in thinking this....but he aint getting it.

now this can go two ways---i know this. but really what have i got to lose---i have been in limboland for 3 years waiting for something, anything.
lets discuss this. and unless you can say youve been where i am--please dont flame me---if you have been where i am---flame away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

nikko

I haven't been there, but if you are a disciple of the MB program, that's quite a departure from Radical Openness and Honesty! I am under the impression that you have not really had an affair, from the way you asked your question.

It will be interesting to see the responses you get!

Happy Holiday weekend!
SD

3 years in what kind of plan? Dont tell me plan B?

Yes...i have thought of that idea too but since i am in plan B...i dont care about WH or OW anymore (or trying to)...I think i better stick to not caring or else it would only drag me back into that dark pit again.

I too have thought about this just so he could feel the pain that I have. But think about it. You would be saying that morally this is ok and I think you would be helping him justify his actions because you were capable too. I am so close to calling it quits that sometimes i would love to hurt him in that way, but then I realize that I am a better person than that. I love calling the b----- homewrecker immoral and a slut. I surely don't want to become or pretend to become like her. If i walk away from this M, I want to do so with my head held high and let him think about his actions that broke up our family. And I never want my DD to think that i was capable of such a thing. Revenge can be a dangerous thing. Do you really think this would accomplish anything other than feeling good for a moment? If I were you, I would take the high ground and show yourself the respect that you deserve. Let them be the ones that screwed up and have issues.

I have not been where you are, and I am not flaming you. I am just a bit confused and was wondering a couple of things.

First, what do you think this would do to Ft. Knox? Break the doors open? Will this news break the strong dam that he has built around his reservoir of emotions, and then they (the emotions) will come flooding out?

And do you think he would seriously believe you? I just know if I told my H that I had one, after all I have been through with his A, I don't think he would believe me.

Perhaps you have talked about this before, and the older member NUMBERS (NOT older members - phew, saved that one!) know the answers to my above questions.

Thanks for having patience with this "newbie."

SS

Yes I have thought about it as well. Not seriously but in moments of complete frusteration I have! Then the reasonable voice in my head speaks out and says many different things to totally remove that thought.
-if the tables were turned, I know that he would not hold on like I have!
-two wrongs don't make a right!
-I would then have to face him and God with the truth and ask for forgiveness and that is a position I don't ever want to be in.
-I don't ever want to be thought of the same way he has been by friends, family etc.
-I too think very low of the OW (b**ch, homewrecker etc) and would not ever want to be put in the same catagories.

Bottom line is I think that all of us BS have had some really bad or unreasonable thoughts but we don't act on them because we have more morals and values than that! I will be praying for you and your family!

Hi nikko,

I commend you for hanging on for so long.I KNOW I will not be able to for the long.Nothing is changing for me either and frankly,I am tired of waiting.My WH knows how much I love him,how much I want this marriage,how much I love our family and want to stay together BUT he has done zero to try and make this work.He has done everything to make the "relationship" with homewrecker work,or try to.They still haven't had a healthy doese of reality yet,living so far apart.

I think telling your WH you had an A is wrong and it will get you nowhere you want to be.Like the other's mentioned,your WH will either not believe you or use it against you to continue on in his bad behavior.He CANNOT possibly feel the kind of pain you are in because he is not in that frame of mind.Maybe if your WH's OW did it to HIM,then perhaps but to me it is a waste of time and I prefer to be on the moral highground.I can face myself in the mirror each day because I have not done what WH has and continues to do and also I need to set a good and positive example for my daughters.What WH has done solves nothing,only causes more pain.

I can understand your frustration and want to do something to get your WH to open up and feel for you but that's the wrong way IMVHO.Not flaming ya just telling you what I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sicne you don't have a sig line,what's your status? Plan B? Kids? etc?

O

Hi Nikko - geez, hon, I don't know. I have extreme doubts that will do any good and I have huge worries that you'll actually set yourself up for more pain if he doesn't react the way you're hoping for. I don't think that game-playing is necessarily the answer.

I remember your situation pretty well, and I also remember feeling the same frustration you do. I guess I was lucky that H and I were both able to make changes to meet each others needs better. I do mean both - because the truth is my needs have become much easier to meet since I made some changes.

Can I ask you some questions, Nikko??

Do you feel your husband has made ANY changes as to better meeting your needs?

What needs do you feel you have that are being completely unmet?

How have you communicated that to your H?

What changes have YOU made in the past 3 years?

What is it that you are really wanting from your husband in terms of change?

In what way has your marriage changed since your discovery of the affair (it was a while back, wasn't it??)? Has it gotten better, worse?? Have YOU started doing anything differently, or do you still do the same things you did before (jobs, stuff around the house, hobbies etc..)?

I guess what I'm looking for is what has changed, if anything, and what you're really looking to change.

ok--first off, i have not had an affair nor will i ever. just aint gonna happen.

sd--yes i know its a departure--but nothing is working.
zizzy---plan a
coolduck---same response i would have givven and probably did 2 1/2 yrs ago.
s/s---i have no idea what it would do---but dealing with an emotionless lump for my whole marriage is growing old . he has NO emotions---unless you count plastichappy as one.and yes he would believe me.
mom--we are not talking a real affair here---just telling him i did. calm down. i would never do it.
october--there is no longer an ow. he is just refusing to do anything for recovery--since d-day. i live with the king of conflict avoiders and the statement i allways here is---im here arent i. well actually no hunny---you aint. your body is, but your emotions are in storage.

aaahhh--hope--i know you do know what i am talking about. let me try to answer the questions one by one

flat ou refuses to meet my needs---any of them--has no time or isnt interested. to hard --whatever

unmet needs---well after being emotionally starved in this marriage for 12 yrs i would take any---lol but i will condense it.
intimate conversations---we couldnt go on a stupid game show like the dating game and get one right answer. i really do mean that---we have NO conversation other than he had a ****ty/ok day.

go out with me more---anywhere

pay attention to my sexual needs---his number one is you guessed it ladies---and i still aint gettin any

spend time with me---anything awake will do. i would even love it if he slept in our bed more than once a week.

told him in writing, verbally in writting a few more times, thru the counselor, and in writting again. does all the years of begging for these things count too???

the changes ive made are countless--i dont even know where to begin. and yes i have been meeting needs i believe are his top ones consistently--since he flat out refuses to do the needs questions i am guessing. so to cover my bases i do all 10 of the needs--juggling them regularly so i dont miss something. try that for 3 years and flame me. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (thank god i still have a sense of humor)

no changes to the marriage since-d-day. i am still in the ****ty marriage i had before--which is why i am thinking of pulling out the big guns. i have made my boundry and told him if he didnt get with the program and counseling to fix this he was out come summer. he goes to counseling and just sits. in 4-5 sessions he has said a totall of maybe 15 words. doesnt even make up a whole sentance. counselor is getting frustrated too. but his solution is"TALK TO HER" THAT AINT WORKING...WELCOME TO MY WORLD!

what am i waiting for---for us to be a priority. us and our marriage. counselor asked him this flat out and husband looked him in the eye and said he didnt have time. oookkkkayyy----if he continues this way i am gone.

hun---my whole life has changed---i am no longer the person i was before---we all know that. have i done things differently since in the three years---yes. but the marriage is still the same.

so anyone got any ideas----he just flat out would love for it to stay this way and i will no longer have an un-intimate relationship.

lieing is not gonna fix anything, and unlikely you could pull it off anyways...the real question is why are youstill there...a martyr complex?

Divorce is a wakeup call too, you will get a response if you divorce him....

1. His attention and committment....finally

2. Or nothing, and you can get on with your life having exscaped the emotional wasteland you voluntarily inhabit.

dear sufdb---let me ask you---how well did it work for you??????
divorce i mean???? did ya wake up---i dont think so.

see---to me i took vows and they meant/mean something and divorce isnt used as a wake-up call.

what i was asking was did anyone else think this and have you acted on it??? just a question

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nikko:
 dear sufdb---let me ask you---how well did it work for you??????
divorce i mean???? did ya wake up---i dont think so.

see---to me i took vows and they meant/mean something and divorce isnt used as a wake-up call.

what i was asking was did anyone else think this and have you acted on it??? just a question <hr /></blockquote>It has worked as it should, both of us are now able to deal better with our personal issues. I have also been forced to deal with my relgious zealotry (same as yours), and recognize that vows are empty if the marriage is dysfunctional, and living such is a violation of God's command to not be legalistic. In short, using God as an excuse to live an unhealthy life is not what He has in mind for us, re marriage or anything else.... The unique thing about marriage is it involved someone else, so is not just up to us...it is a synergy that has to work on it's own merits, not just cause we have peice of paper or made a vow (verbal version of peice of paper)...we cannot impose our will on God, and He is not (IMO) going to fix unhealthy marital decisions, that is the nature of freewill. That is what I learned, others disagree...but re the wakeup call, that is just semantics, the point is divorce is a logical step in a continuing process of forcing marital resolution, and is Biblically sanctioned (at least in the sense of seperation, divorce itself is a conflictual topic), when one is misbehaving (as is your H...neglect is a huge misbehavior). The conumndrum is simple nikko, if someone knows you will not divorce them, you remove the natural consequence of losing your spouse, and that fear is what finally motivates some (or if not, you have no marriage, only empty vows) to engage...so you understand? And that is my point, judgeing by what you said, nothing else has been effective...not your well-being, not gettting more needs of his met, not threats of divorce...etc. Perhaps if you had a near death experience, or a mental breakdown (both "losing" you scenarios...or actually started dating another man...same same) you would get the same result...but all those would be hard on you....filing for (and meaning it of course) divorce is your best option.....or suck it up, and prepare for a life of unending sacrifice hoping/praying someday your H will finally "see" you....but could be decades....or never...your call.

A couple of more questions, Nikko.

How are you meeting your own needs? You said you want to go out more - have you made plans and asked him to go along? Have you enrolled in anything, or signed up for any clubs or events that you would enjoy with or without him?

You said you're a completely different person - can you tell me how? I DON'T DOUBT that you are - I just want to hear it from you.

Overall - marriage issues aside - how are you enjoying life? I don't remember - do you work outside the home? Do you feel that if your marriage were in a good spot that your life would be satisfying - or are there other things you would change as well??

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to get a better sense of things before I pretend I know anything and offer advice.

nikko,
I just came on to lurk, but I just felt I had to login and reply. I have read your posts and replied to you some. I thought things were in his court now? Anyway, please let me ask you a question that may not make any sense. Are you helping him to hold up the dam? 3 years seems like a long time to hold anything back. I know you are committed and you love him. what if you reduced or even let off the pressure? Would the dam break under its own force? Somtimes I think I'm doing the same thing with my W, so I really pull back. Then I see some of those emotions come out. I know men are different, but we have deep emotions also. I would say most men are very sentimental.

I understand your desparation. Maybe you would say someting like do you ever think I might have an A? He knows all the "reasons" to have one and him not meeting your EN's would qualify. Could he picture you in one? Could you say that without it sounding threatening? I think most who have been in an A are looking for a safe landing zone. They want to be accepted again. The problem is that they have trouble accepting what they did and in turn look down on themselves. Then the BS hits them with an LB and they go back in thier shell.

I know they were wrong, but if we want to recover our M's, we have to forgive and forget. I am not saying that you have not done all of those things and that you probably have done all you could. Maybe its too much? I hope I made sense, it just seemed like the right response.
I hope the dam breaks soon.

Christ's Love,
Roman

Actually, there was a book I read... maybe Dobson's Tough Love? that discussed a process of telling the WS a story. The story would be an extremely detailed one of an affair that could have (but didn't) occur between the BS and a 'known' quantity to the WS like a best friend.

I remember using a form of it early on & H did get VERY uncomfortable. He couldn't handle the idea of me w/ someone else... also, he got to 'live' to some extent, through the feelings & thoughts that I had been living.

I also believe that along w/ that strategy was one of writing a letter about a 'beloved' car that was given up for a new 'racier' model.

If you do something like this Nikko, try to find the book where it discusses the strategy and make sure your H knows that it is fiction.... just make it VERY GOOD, really DETAILED fiction.

Cali

oh, and maybe you should discuss this w/ MC and have the strategy facilitated. :shrug:

[ May 29, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]

Hi Nikko,

I have been reading this board for years and NEVER post. Yours brought me out for a minute :-)

One of my biggest post D-Day ~if I could go back and do it all over things~ is similar to what you are talking about.

Instead of confronting him 2 years 9 months ago about his A , I would have admitted "my affair". I had the whole story all worked out. Let him suffer the pain I did for maybe a few weeks. I would have told him the truth after a while and I would have said, " I hope you feel relief, you now know your W is true to you. It was a bad dream. But I have to live still with the reality of what you have done forever."

But, maybe the outcome would have been different than it is right now. Maybe he would have killed me, or had a heart attack. Who knows! It took 9 months after D-day for the fog to lift. That was excrusiating. Today he is almost the H I always wanted. I guess I am almost the W he has always wanted. We don't expect each other to be perfect! lol.. I am happy, He is happy.

Things should be different for you. You have been going through this a bit longer than I. I wish I had some sage advise for you, but I don't know, maybe a plan B would be the thing. Your H seems that he just isn't getting it, or dosen't want to. Maybe some time without Nikko, would do the trick. It would also give you time to reflect on what you really need from him or at least give you a break from your relationship.. clear the cobwebs :-)

thank you for comming out for me--i really appreciate it. i knew someone else out there knew what i was feeling.

i cant post long her--i am in horrible shape...mini breakdown i guess. not sure how to feel---started crying and couldnt stop---been crying all day. havent ever really dont that---letting it go, who knows maybe ill feel better when it stops.

i'll post more when i get it together---thanks all for talking about this with me.....

Nikko....

blessings to you....

I'm just gonna ramble through this....

I am a girl that needs a plan...when there is something that I want changed or fixed...man I need a plan...

no plan, leaves me chaotic and in turmoil...
I can even pace if really distraught...
so I find comfort in a plan..

I even find comfort in formalizing a plan...
I think you need a plan...

and i thought about this post today...and here's my questions about what you think of this plan...

first when i read your post about YOUR marriage....
it sounds very lonely...

flat ou refuses to meet my needs---any of them--has no time or isnt interested. to hard --whatever

and well the truth is Nikko...you DON"T have to live your life this way....
three years...too long

you need a free Nikko from this cage plan....

what is the outcome of the free Nikko plan...well...lets just say right off the bat...you know what you got right now...
and it isn't working...

and you know you can't change him...
and you know you have changed you....
and perhaps it's time to just let go..
NOT necessarily of the marriage...
but definitely in your role in FIXING it...

Nikko if I WERE YOU....
this would be my plan...tell me what would happen if....

first I would tell you that I would give myself the gift of a timelimit of that I will try one last time for three-four-fillintheblank...number of months...and then I would be done with his CHOICE not to plug in to this marriage...
and if I were you I would give myself permission to begin to grasp that due to no lacking or fault of yours...he may not ever get it....

1. instead of the "words" of an affair....you do the actions of an affair...actions always speak louder than words...
you create the illusion of not necessarily an affair...but close to it...

You start going out....
YOU start being less accountable for your time...
YOU start humming sweet love songs under your breath when cooking dinner...with a lovely wistful look on your face..

YOU go to him upbeat and happy...
jar his memory or get his attention...
"hey honey guess what I heard today"...that old song..."fill in the blank".....
made me smile...
made me some pretty happy times.......
then flit right off his radar screen with no response expected....

find new music that you don't regularly listen to....put in on when he's around...tell him someone turned you on to this group...

buy some new underwear...without a word to him about it.....

enter his radar screen happy and upbeat...but somewhat distracted..."oh sorry did you say something dear...I was thinking of something funny someone said the other day...never mind it wouldn't sound funny to you..."

Tell him something you saw that took your breath away....
"dear..today I saw a North American Blue-bird...and in seeing the bird in flight...I know there is a God...then off his screen..

become distracted...
become BUSY BUSY BUSY...but no Lovebusting..do nothing he can lay a finger on ..
nothing that he can turn around on you
nothing that he pin point...

be little less accountable
be a little less unavailable..

meet his needs
but create some illusions...

go to a matinee play...
tell him you knew he wouldn't want to go..so you are going yourself..but you would love to go out to dinner later...or do SOMETHING with him if he's interested...

tell him you will call...then don't...

smacks of game playing
you betcha...
but it's the reality of his CHOICE not to treat you with respect...and it is the consequance of his action...

buy some schlocky romance novel...with a steamy cover...and act engrossed in it..
buy some type of novel that perhaps you wouldn't read...and tell him ALL about the book...and that "someone recomended it to you" so you thought you would try....

get a close friend...have them call when they know he is home...be too busy to answer..let him answer...and hang up...
leave the house when he is home act like you are late...
call him when you leave from a pay phone..hang up when he answers..if you have caller ID..do it from a payphone..

you my friend are greatly valued in this universe regardless of your husbands inability or choice not to treat you thusly...
and if you don't grasp on to that meaing soon...
it would be wrong...

Is this anti marriage building..perhaps...but when you have someone refusing to build with you...AND refusing to let your light shine...somethings gotta give...

shake it up...x number of months...
and see if he even notices...
if not then your answer may lay in his refusal to even see you....

blessings nikko
I know you are hurting...

ARK

Yes, I have thought about it. But the thought was fleeting and I know the thought was for me and not to tell WS about.
I would love to have someone hold me and want to be attentive.

But to do it or consider doing it for WH to gig him. NO. Absolutely not.
I have fantasized numerous things in a mad state what I would like to do regarding OW, but its all in frustration. I would never do it. But must admit last weekend I really got into some creative ugliness.
The place where she works has a very long road leading into it. I thought it would be appropriate to post signs, lots of them along the route so all the plant workers could read.
"her name with a Big Red A", or If your husband needs a good time, call xxx", or My husband pays for his sex with XXXX, or "for a good time call XXX" or "XXX is an Adultress"
Nothing like 200 workers at a plant buzzing about the latest gossip.

I realize that the OW made no promises to me, but she did play a part in the A. And dang it, can't do that sort of thing against WH as it would be major LB's. Ah, who am I kidding so would any attack on the OW as he would come to her pitiful defense.

Personally being mad has gotten me some strength as it took me 5 weeks to get mad. I've got some fight in me and it gives me much strength in dealing with his roller coaster stuff.

Hi ARK- LOVE your answer to Nikko- we are in the same boat but my h is MIA this week and acting like a 4 year old. what about me etc.... if he shows up at the party on Monday I'll be charming and strong. I post on RECOVERY if you want to see my saga this week- I don't usually have a saga...

Hi Whitefeather- did you really DO the sign thing? I am at the forefront of PUT UP A BILLBOARD for the infidels....... golden- love it. when the ow won't go away.......perhaps she needs to see that you noticed ....!

PEACE OUT

Funny thing, I have never cheated on my H, and I thought he took it for granted that I would always be faithful, but the other day after he hung up on me, he sent me an im - and the last comment on it was:

"BTW, How is your 'Special' friend ???"

Meaning, he thinks I have a boyfriend. I wrote him back saying that I am not with anyone else and never have been, but I thought about letting him stew...

Over the last year since we have been apart, I have lost weight and I look pretty good, I have started dressing more alluring, I have a job where I frequently meet available men, and get propositioned occasionaly, and since he doesn't come around much or call, he doesn't know what I am up to. We went out a few months ago and he saw me for the first time in years, wearing sexy clothes, heels etc.

I think he is getting nervous.

Good.

*chuckle!*

Heh heh-- I agree with ARK, Shul and Cali. In Torn Asunder, there is a section on what to do when the WS won't address tough issues. As Cali described, this 'technique' will provoke a necessary and desired emotional response. It is used in alcohol treatment circles when an alcoholic refuses to seek treatment. Rather than allowing the alcoholic or the WS to fall to the bottom, this technique 'brings the bottom up'.

I have also been thinking about using this on FWH. However, I don't know when is the right time to do it. I have a very detailed story which I am sure will blow FWH away. However, my story 'happened' in the past... during our one year separation. I think it is easier if I just came out to 'confess' a past A, not one that is happening. It also explains my exessive shopping for clothes and make up during that time. Can anyone share what is a good timing for this 'revelation'?

(Note to Shul-- I have always had a mental picture of you. Now you are in soft chiffon dress and kitten heels. Lol!)

[edited cause I am WAY tired] ruffled... THANKS! I couldn't remember the exact book and have been pondering it all day... Torn Asunder!

I really believe that you shouldn't undertake this on-the-spur-of-the-moment... that if you are in counseling, you should have the counselor facilitate it...

AND, make sure you read the section in Torn Asunder for the details.

I never had to go into detail... what actually occurred was once some people thought I was available, I got some interesting invitations. One former co-worker invited me to go w/ him and another guy on a Thanksgiving trip up the coast to visit some other former co-worker friends. I told H of the invitation... but the "Thanksgiving" didn't register and when I was very late not coming home one Friday night and I didn't call him... he lost it... thought I had gone on the weekend w/ the guys... LOL... shook up his little world. Now... the not calling and being late was purposeful... but him thinking I had left for the weekend was not... but, it suited the purpose of him understanding how it felt to think your spouse had or was going to boff another (and another that you KNEW and could VISUALIZE).

Just take care.

Cali

[ May 29, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]

Hope you're feeling better, nikko.

I'm in agreement with sufdb. Every situation is different, but mine has a lot in common with yours. My wife has mostly been withdrawn from me and our kids and life in general for a long time. When your spouse has a deep need for lots of quality time with the TV, the bed, beer, etc. it's hard for them to find time to care for their spouse or kids.

She has other problems than just selfishness, I understand. But I concluded that at some point if I just continued on and allowed this I was enabling her dysfunctional behavior. For the second time in a few months, and more determinedly I indicated that if there was no change I wanted to divorce.

So far she has responded and has been making an effort. How long it continues and where it leads to I don't know.

But I do think that at some point one has to do what it takes to motivate an uncooperative spouse to get with the program.

Steve

Nikko,
During the first 1 1/2 years of H's PA, he absolutely encouraged me to find someone else.

I didn't.

Then, about the 6th separation, a "safe" male friend started to seem appealing. At the 7th separation, and discovering that H's PA might be over, but the EA definitely was not, the friend was very appealing. I served D papers and dating simultaneoulsy.

H & I reconciled a few months later.

The thing is, by doing in reality what you are talking about in fantasy...I do regret it. My H broke his vows, but my vows had been kept through some very tough times and I do believe I would be more content with my own behavior had I not dated/had that relationship.

Would my H have still reconciled? I really don't know. The OM was a factor in my H's change of heart, not the whole of it, however...I can't disregard it nor take that factor out.

But...my disappointment in me and my behavior is real.

Affairs have consequences, so does lying. Keep your honor in either regard, if you can.

That's my best take, having slogged through it.

And...prior to that, trying to make my H feel or think like he might if I went to someone else had no affect whatsoever. In abstract, he thought it was a goodish kind of idea. In reality, he wanted me to end it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nikko:
 thank you for comming out for me--i really appreciate it. i knew someone else out there knew what i was feeling.

i cant post long her--i am in horrible shape...mini breakdown i guess. not sure how to feel---started crying and couldnt stop---been crying all day. havent ever really dont that---letting it go, who knows maybe ill feel better when it stops.

i'll post more when i get it together---thanks all for talking about this with me..... <hr /></blockquote>My dear Nikko,

I am sad to see you in such pain. I can see many helping you.

Let's see, your pain keeps showing up at the most inappropriate times (like there ever is a good time for such pain - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Nonetheless, the pain is real and needs to be addressed.

Long time ago it was stated that a BS also goes through stages. I went through the one you are going through more than once.

How to have that meaningful discussion with your H so that this pain can go away? Do you need to? Probably. How? There s/b $$ in the answer that works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Here's my shot and my experience:

1. I let my H know his presence did not make me feel safe. If he wanted to know what about his presence that made me feel this way it w/b something we needed to discuss and I dropped it.

2. H asked if I wanted to have an A. I told him, I wanted to be cared, loved, supported (emotionally/mentally/spiritually and of course financially). Would having an A get me that? I posed that question to H. His response to that same question helped me see which plan to use.

3. I learned to communicate my feelings and needs more as a question to him that statements. Not all the time but periodcially. He knows when I say something like: 'can I ask you a question', he knows what's coming and has been more open to hearing and responding. This took time.

4. I learned I had to initially patiently wait for the response until he saw my techhique was not a setup for him. He had to learn to trust me also.

The point is that I didn't do more for him, I did less. Our previous R was me as the giver and the takers weren't giving. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I learned not to go that route anymore. It was not healthy for myself and my M.

Hope this helps.

L.

Hi nikko

I have thought about it too. And not for make him believe, but because I needed at some time somebody to care for me. Why it didn't happen? Because I think God is great, it wouldn't do me or my M any good. If that would have happened to me, I don't think I would be clear enough to think and grow like I do today.

I know you have tryed all to save your M and to get your H and the relationship you want back.

In theory, what Ark^^, Caly and Shul have said, would be "bad", for me it would be a make believe game, and to some degree a try in the dark on make him come to his senses and get a result. In a way, try to control things.
In theory it's "bad" because you would create a climate for him to believe you are having an A, and maybe he will come around and think things over. Nikko, you have told your H many times, that ain't going to happen. That was in the past.

In practice, this is a very dangerous game, you have felt yourself the pain of it. Do you really want your H to got the same pain? Even for the right reasons to fix your M? We have saw a very successful story about it on Carol's, and maybe it's what your H needs to work on your M.

Since you have tryed it all, and not this route, maybe this is the last one you have to explore. Saddly theory and practice, sometimes doesn't agree. In theory, we would have to talk things over before A happens, but what made them happen? Selfish behavior.

I been thinking, that we sometimes give too much. At least I did. When some of my needs were unmet, I talked things over, and when still those needs were not fullfilled, I settled for the needs that were met, and that made me "happy". Like who's M is perfect huh? So I tryed to live with what I got the best I could, and be happy about it. What happened, was that some of my H's needs were not met also, but he didn't talked those things over, and he decided to get them fullfilled in another relationship. He didn't settled AT ALL. My main goal here, is to both get our needs met in this M. If that's not happening on some time, then we are both free to go. Like I have told him many times, I have changed a lot, and I'm giving him time to change, if he doesn't, or if I don't change the to meet those needs the way he wants them, it didn't worked in the past, and is not going to work in the future. For either of us.

I loved what orchid posted and I quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The point is that I didn't do more for him, I did less. Our previous R was me as the giver and the takers weren't giving. <hr /></blockquote>I think you are giving too much, you have tryed all routes besides this one, but for you to do this route, you also have to change a lot, you need to become the person you used to be. Look for that lady, and work on her nikko. How effective it's going to be? It depends on how hard you work in yourself. Release the pain, the anger, and the frustration. Buy a punching bag and punch it, leave it there, and start changing yourself and become a strong and independend woman again. Seek help. If you do this kind of changes, I can guarantee you some others will come around. It's not neccesarily the ones you might be seeking, but in the end, you'll be strong again to make whatever choice you decide to do.

In theory, what Ark^^, Caly and Shul have said, would be "bad", for me it would be a make believe game, and to some degree a try in the dark on make him come to his senses and get a result. In a way, try to control things.

I am not suggesting any type of control...
the exact opposite.
I am suggesting ALL aspects of asking/begging for any thing from him...
and presenting to him someone who can be happy in life and interested in things out there in the world...instead of this dark focus of always saying to spouse...

love me...

my suggestion is that Nikko feel that love in and for life..inspite of her husbands CHOICE to do nothing....

I am not suggesting an affair..
I am not even suggesting to much of the illusion...
(OK i get the phone call hang ups were over the edge <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

but I am VERY concerned over what three years of living in those conditions to do a persons soul...
very concerned...

In practice, this is a very dangerous game, you have felt yourself the pain of it. Do you really want your H to got the same pain?

It is NOT a game..it is a glimpse of the reality of HIS personal choices that he MAKES every day to not plug in to the one persons life on this planet that he should be TRYING to connect him do...

ofcourse he should NOT be protected from the pain and reality of his own actions...
If we took that route..then we are all doomed to live in unacceptable conditions based on others actions and our wish to protect them does them and ourselves no real service......

I suggest nikko stop ALL relationship talk...
all engaging him what he should do...

he knows what he should do...
I would show him glimpses of his choice not to do..
without malace
without anger...

show him happy nikko no longer dragged down by his issues....

I always believe actions speak louder than words...
he has made his choice up till now..

nikko has the right to make hers based on his...

it's not control...if anything it is the release of control....

peace matilde..

ark

Darn you Ark - I was thinking along those lines too and you go and write it so well......!!!

Nikko - if you really have made personal changes that make you a better partner, and a better person overall - and you're meeting all of his needs better than ever - and he's still not budging - then it's time to do something differently.

I think that pouring all your energy in to meeting HIS needs, when he seems to be CONCIOUSLY holding out on meeting your needs, is wearing you out. Start pouring that energy in to meeting YOUR OWN needs. I know that won't make your marriage the way you want it to be, but it may make life a lot more fulfilling. I was also thinking along the lines that Ark said - about ACTING like there was someone or something else in your life. It doesn't have to be an act - it doesn't have to be quite as well thought out and elaborate as she's written. Simply making time for yourself and getting some LIFE back in to your life - is enough to put a smile back on your face. And if you're at home, singing and smiling and in a great mood - and not seemingly all that interested in sharing about it with your H - my guess is he'll start being curious as to why. And what if he isn't? Then you know, without a doubt, that this is no longer a game with him - he simply is not interested in truly being married - he's interested in having his laundry done and his children cared for.

If he really is a huge conflict avoider - he may be using passive aggresive behavior to drive you to divorce HIM - so he doesn't have to do the dirty work. Or - he could just be completely stubborn. I don't know - but as long as you're meeting his every need and putting up with his lack of reciprocation - there are no real consequences to his inaction. You've already told him - you've written letters - he knows what to do. Time to back off of meeting any extra needs other than the very basic ones necessary, and start pouring that energy in to yourself.

Ark^^

I'm sorry if in anyway I missunderstood what you tryed to tell, but that was nikko's question right? To tell him she had an A even if it's not true to make him out of his walls.

I'm also VERY concerned on nikko's health and state of mind. She has become a dear friend of me over time, and I do realize how much this has affected her. That is why I suggested to drop it, and start working in herself, and become the lady she used to be before all this happened. Maybe we can not be the ones we used to be, but one has to deal with the things that get into our life with attitude. Could be a bad one (have plenty of that myself), or for a change, try to learn and get better if we can over time.

I do know, that will not happen overnight, but she has to do the baby steps each day to become better, not for her H but for herself, and maybe over time those changes will bring other things as I said, to make her choice with a healthy mind and spirit. But she has to do those changes, if she wants a "happy" ending whatever that is for her. I do know that even if we want it or not, some changes came along by themself, and that she has become a better lady in many aspects. But still she needs others.

Nikko this is for you, you have to seek help. Not MC, but IC for you. Three years on this had worn you out. You have been trying so hard, that you got no energy left. Use the little amount you got, in becoming YOURSELF better. You have to do it!. Do not waste another minute over it. You need peace, SEEK IT!, it will not come to your door, SEEK IT.

((((((( nikko ))))))))

When in plan A, I talked to my H about me dating other men. After all, he was so busy dating other women, and was fairly open about it, so why shouldn't I do the same thing? Of course, as a typical WS, he came right out and told me that I shouldn't, b/c it wasn't right. You know... all the usual fogtalk, and a typical "do as I say, not as I do" situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

That situation works for many of us dealing with a WS that are still actively involved in their A's... or at least fence sitting.

You are NOT in that situation now... and "YES"!! I totally validate your feelings on wanting to shake your H outta his books, and be forced into working on the M! I know why you want to tell him you had an A too (technically, doesn't time on MB qualify as an EA?)... but deep down inside, you know it's wrong to do that. It's YOUR taker coming out, and that's why you posted about it on here, instead of just going ahead and doing it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You've already given your H many timelines. I'm surprised you've found it in you to do it again, by giving him until the end of the summer. By that time, are you going to come up with another time limit? You keep on shifting your boundaries on that, and your H hasn't had to deal with any consequences from his INaction.

We all know, it's NOT about the A anymore. It's far beyond that. It's about maintaining the M and keeping it alive and healthy... something it hasn't really been, ever, has it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't know if anything I've said is helping. I think I'm rambling now. LOL. And I also should get my butt off of this computer, so I can get the kids outside, and hopefully have things quiet enough around here to give you a call! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care, my dear friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully we'll talk very soon.

Love,
Karen

ladies--thank you soo much---please keep at it with me. i have read all the responses--i cant put much thought together at the moment so im gonna just recap the evening.

hubby gets home...knows something is wrong(my face is swollen the size of a pumpkin from crying and im not functioning---think that tipped him off?) he sits me at the head of dinning room table, kind of odd, thats his chair, and puts my dinner plate in front of me. i push food around and take a few bites---no talk. after dinner he asks do i want to go to the hospital.(i really should have but my kids need me)i told him, why what are they gonna do or say that i dont allready know? he says nothing. then a bit later he asks if he can do anything to help?(gee--ya think meeting my needs would come to mind...but its my hubby we are dealing with here.) i just looked at him through glazed eyes and said----fix you or set me free----i am dying.

he didnt say anything---so i said--ok, tell me why, why you are like this. make me understand?
got the big i dont know. at that point i just didnt want to breath...so i said im going up to bed---he asked if i wanted him to come and lay with me....i said no. i would rather you didnt.

now i know you all want to slam me for saying this...but let me explain. the whole chair thing was so he could see the baseball game going on behind me---the whole time he was faking looking at me and watching it going on behind my head. nice huh---your wife is having a total collapse ---but you get the score hunny.

wanna know how i keep going....anger, pure anger.

im gonna go cry again...i have read all the posts and i will post more later---thank you all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It's YOUR taker coming out, and that's why you posted about it on here, instead of just going ahead and doing it! <hr /></blockquote>truly great insight Topie!

nikko: let me give it a little bit of a spin...

why can't you meet your own needs? why do you feel you need him to meet your needs?

how would you feel if you could meet your own needs? would it feel "wrong" to you? would it feel like he'd "gotten away" with something?

if you could meet your own needs, would you end the M?

awed

Big thumbs up to what Awed said.

Take care of yourself Nikko. Come back and talk to us some more.

Nikko, quite honestly I'm not all that familiar with your story. But I have been here for the required 3 plus years and have certainly had the fantasy of having an A. In fact my W's OM dated a 26 yr old go-go dancer who showed some interest in me. So yes that one was very tempting. But the one thing that struck me out of all the responses was the first one. ZizzyCool question, what plan are you in. I often wonder that myself. What Plan am I in. All I do is enable this behavior to go on. But I finally decided that this will be the year. We are quickly approaching a fork in the road. It's not A or B or even D. Just what I need. And for me that is no contact for ME. W will continue living fantasy life but I'm no longer going to participate. So I don't think you'll get his attention with a made up A and only lose credibility when you ackowlege it's false. Maybe make some decisions about what is going to put you in a better place. Bring out the taker for the next 6 months. That should get his attention. Stop chasing and reverse the roles. When I say chasing I mean stop doing all the work of recovery. Let him drag the wagon for 6 months and wonder what's going on in your mind. Maybe then you'll get a glimpse into the Fort. If you find anything that works I'd sure like to hear from you.

i finally years ago started to meet my own needs----and did so quite well. i was happy, things were feeling great to me, had a great job and kids were all doing well.......

he felt so left out he had an affair! he turned it around on me---i didnt need him, i was doing my own thing,,blah blah blah. so this is why i am stuck----if i do it again for myself---will he do it again to me?

oh i am reading---cant post to everyone--so i am going to try to single a few things out---my brain is still recovering from mushland. LOL

ok---have the counselor.....drew the line in the sand about him working on himself and the marriage....deadline is latest, middle of summer(gives me time to adjust son before school starts).i think this week i need to talk to an attorney to find out just what i am facing and what i am entitled to.

i am trying everyday to get out and do things---even if they seem simple. i have become agoraphobic in all this. but i am working on it. i have to find my way back to me.

so thats the plan at the moment.....any other ideas???

well, yeah I do...if you want to answer a couple more questions first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> he felt so left out he had an affair! <hr /></blockquote>and do you agree with him? do you think this is really why he had an affair?

if fear is part of the reason why you do not want to meet your own needs, can you envision meeting your own needs without making your S feel excluded?

in other words, if you being a happy, busy person leaves him feeling left out of your life, is there another way to go about this?

or do you believe that it is an all or nothing proposition? either HE is responsible for your happiness and you remain M, or YOU are responsible for your happiness and you D?

awed

no i dont believe it---its a crap excuse! he is excluded because he wants to be. let me explain.

hubby works terribly long hours---is gone from about 8 am till 1030-11 pm. he has tues and sunday off. spends those days being busy with his things so he doesnt have to connect. his things are yard work and errands to lowes. yes i go to lowes but we arent even together in the store---he always goes off on his own. he doesnt want to plug in and connect---he chooses not to. so no it was a crap excuse. (i know it) but the legacy of the pain remains. i know i should be moving on and making me happy but in doing so he has his excuse again. (in his mind) i wanted to take that excuse away---be available to meet his needs and do plan a. i have been in plan a waaaaay to long. lol

now is he responsible for me being happy---no. thats my job, i know that. what he is responsible for is meeting my needs to make me feel safe and in love. just like that is my job for him. but he refuses. like i said---middle of the month is comming.....he just doesnt know it!

so do i tell the counselor of my middle of the month plan? or do i just wait?

lets get me back on track ladies----this is helping.....thanks!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> i know i should be moving on and making me happy but in doing so he has his excuse again. (in his mind) i wanted to take that excuse away <hr /></blockquote>so...at the root, you believe that you really ARE responsible for his actions then? you have control over what he does?

in other words, if you do X, then he will not do Y, therefore you need to keep on doing X to keep him from doing Y, even though doing X is driving you crazy?

have I got it straight now?

this is no joke...

I am trying to pull out your bottom line one question at a time so you can see the answer right in front of you...

what do I think? I don't think a timeline is ever a good idea unless it is TODAY, and perhaps TOMORROW...other than that, pull a Scarlett O'Hara and simply think about it later...

change takes time...deadlines are illusions that make us think we feel better but really they just give us something to obsess about...changing ourselves is darn hard work and if we look at the road, it is exhausting...but one day at a time...that is do-able...

what I personally ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) would really like to see you do is ark's (modified) plan without any thought of HIM at all! why not read books, hum to yourself, smile secretly, go out, have fun, live life...for nikko! no need to fake an affair...be happy in and of yourself...

if you are doing this for yourself, to feel better about yourself and your life, and it works...and then the fact that you are feeling good about yourself and your life makes your H feel excluded, what would that tell you?

but...that is still a long ways away yet...until you feel better about yourself, you have no idea what the impact of that will be on your H...

and nikko: it WAS a crap excuse...so you being happy did NOT cause his A...therefore you BEING happy will still not cause his A...therefore there is no reason that you should continue to do things that are making you unhappy...and agoraphobic...

I hope some of this helps you come to a decision that is good for you...I wish you the very best...take care...awed

Nikko,

I just want to give you a hug!{{{{{NIKKO}}}}}
I'm sitting here so sad for you. I know how despair feels too... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> It is agony.

It may be hard....but ARK has some really really good suggestions for you! I would "fake" my happiness......like he is there~~~notice him and tell him little tid bits but don't include details.....Start going out! It doesn't matter if it's a 3 hr. sit in at Barnes and Noble!!!(coffee and 20 magazines!!!) whatever it takes!

Go out girl! if you hate the thought....drive to the near by river-lake-wherever! and sit....read, read, read, pray ~pray~pray!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If you have the money~~~~~ join a gym~ doesn't matter if you go~~it would make you feel better if you did....but it's a good excuse for an hour or two to get out of the house!!!

I know....when I am feeling the worst about myself.....I am feeling the worst about everyone. Do you need to have your hair done? lose a few pounds? what would make you feel better with your self??? For me, it's the fact I have been at home being the good wife.....cooking....baking....gained a few x-tra's I HATE!!!(makes me depressed)

So............curves (woman only workout) is great!!! and helps you release those pent up frustrations too!!!

When all is said and done Nikko, the thing to remember is YOU ARE IMPORTANT!!! weather H acts or thinks that!!!! YOU are God's creation just the way you are!! and HE loves YOU!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

okay--i am doing for me. ME ME ME ME!!!!!

NO I DONT TRUELY BELIEVE I AM THE REASON FOR THE AFFAIR AND I KNOW I CANT CONTROLL HIM. just wanted to get that straight! what i wanted to do was take every lousy excuse he had for not plugging in away. and ya know what---i did! so i have a clear concience in moving on.

now what have i done differently---well yesterday i went out to sprezzatura's house for awhile. then took the kids to the mall...talked to hubby--he had to find me on my cell pnone cause i wasnt home...answered the phone laughing, told him i was at the mall and probably wouldnt be home when he got there!!(YAY FOR ME--i was actually sitting alone on a bench when he called.) in any event he wasnt home when i got there and didnt come home for hours after. well topie called me and when he did finally walk in he had to come find me---i was in our bedroom laughing and talking. his dinner was un-cooked and on the counter---told him to light the grill and put it on for 3-4 min on each side. i never do that--always make sure he has dinner waiting. coo yer own--im having fun here! well while on the phone with topie---sprezzatura calls and now i am talking to her---ys comes up and tells me he is eating all my steak---hubbys way of saying get down here. so i tell him go ahead--i am having fun here and dont want to eat!!

how am i doing ladies. stayed upstairs and finished my talk then went down. he is not use to me not at least sitting with him during his dinner. i sat with him for a few minutes and he said nothing--watching tv---i then said--ya know what...from all i did today im tired---im going to bed...had a smirk on my face like i was thinking of something good that happened that day....

and got up and went to bed. he never came up--he usually sleeps on the couch---lucky if he is in bed 2 times a week. dont ask i have no idea why---been asking for years...anyway--got up...made coffee and whistled while i ironed. I HAVENT IRONED IN 10 YRS....so not only was i doing it---i was having fun and whistling while doing it.

how am i doing???

thats my update.

I think your doing GREAT!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Who knows, may be that you are on your road to self discovery and might actually find that you like yourself too much to hang with a sour-puss anymore!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Good for you. Life is but once....enjoy it!!!

I LOVE all you did....I was actually sitting her yanking my arm up and down going "YES" "YES"...Good for you girl!!!!

Blessings,
Atruheart
p.s. can't wait until he can't take it any more and finally asks what's up??? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LOL!! I love it, Nikko! Of course, this still doesn't guarantee that he's going to get it or change. If anything - he may get all the more stubborn and be worse. But that's his problem.

His behavior seems so passive agressive - which is why I wondered if he's just subtly trying to get you to throw him out - rather than do anything himself.

Keep at it. You have chosen some specific behaviors to do completely the opposite of what you have been doing for YOU. I did the same. Very similar to yours.

I was always where he expected me to be and called him if I wasn't going to be there... or on time. I stopped that.

I always answered my cell or called him right back. Stopped that.

I quit asking him to come to bed... and stopped getting up in the middle of the night to get him to come to bed. (this was the hardest thing to do.)

I made plans to have fun & didn't ask him or include him.

I used to plan my life around him... and would get upset cause he didn't do the same... When I started the process, it took awhile, but eventually he admitted to feeling the effects. He noticed my "absence." Some times we have to give them the chance to miss us.

Sometimes we have to redefine our relationship's boundaries and begin a new dance to some different music. It doesn't mean we want a new partner.

Cali

WOW!!! NIKKO, IT WAS LIKE READING MY LIFE IN MEMOREX!!! I COULD HAVE WRITTEN WHAT YOU HAVE AND IT WOULD BE MY MARRIAGE TOO. I HAVE ABSOLUTE BEEN IN YOURE PLACE AND I STILL AM THERE 18 MONTHS SINCE DDAY, I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT MY VOWS . YES I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT BUT I JUST CAN'T BE THAT HURTFUL EVER TO ANYONE , IT HURT WAY TOO MUCH TO EVEN BRING IT UPON MY WORST ENEMY...HONEST AND I WOULD NEVER WANT TO BE THAT OW TO ANYONE'S H.. EVER NO NO NO . I WISH I HAD THE KEYS OR ANSWERS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR CUZ MINE ARE THE SAME ALLTHOUGH MY H HAS SAID HE LOVES ME AND WILL DO ANYTHING FOR ME!! INAGINE THAT .. HAA IT AINT HAPPENING NOTHING NOTHING HAS CHANGED SINCE DDAY ..EXCEPT MAYBE FOR THE SEX PART RIGHT AFTER DDAY FOR A FEW MONTHS . BUT NOW WE ARE BACK TO THE SAME OLE SAME OLE LUCKY IF IT'S 2 TIMES A MONTH..IT AINT WORKIN AND IT AINT BROKE SO NO EXCUSE!!!!

bump---update to come.......

BUMP ---- WHEN?

ok---was gonna do this yeaterday but got thrown a curveball as usual......

this weekend is garage sale weekend for our whole town. i decided this year i am going to do it---i dont usually. started tearing through the house collecting all the stuff to sell.(hoping to make enough for a plane ticket.hehehe) i decided to get rid of everything that remotely triggers me or reminds me of all this. like the first x-mas after d-day...when they dacided to be friends still......i hate looking at all the stuff i got that year...out it goes! it has taken me awhile to get here but i want it out. so i am tearing through the house and garage, hubby is helping and i start going through this box....in it i find the one and only....yes one and only love letter he has written me in 12 yrs. it starts off...

our love is like a rollercoaster...ups,down,twists and turns.(i allready want to puke, but keep reading...)it goes on to talk about our 7th anniversary--Lucky seven as he puts it! how i am his life and will love me and only me forever and ever...blach!

i just collapse....i hand him the letter and he starts reading it....gets this huge smile and grin on his face i just want to smack off.....he is soooo proud of himself....i ask--you dont get it do you? he just looks at me....this was during your affair you a$$!!! he deflates as well as me.

i come inside and just start sobbing. i allways held onto the fact that our marriage was so in the crapper at the time he at least never tried playing both of us. there were no i love yous, no feelings nothing. we only walked around trying not to fight. i guess i was wrong...he did try to play us both. i know this doesnt seem like much compared to what everyone else has gone through..but it crushed me.

then i realize.....he didnt write this. cupid and cherub stationary, not hand written-done on the computer....this didnt come from him at all!!! holy ****---the only time i get a love letter he is in an affair---then i realize he didnt write it at all.

needless to say you can picture the rest of our day....me hurt and him acting like nothing happened. just one more thing to add to the list of things i need to ignore...

so this morning i ask him "when you read that letter what were you thinking about---you had a really huge smile on your face.....Uh...nothing, i was trying to remember the circumstances for writting it." i then ask"who really wrote it, because after 12 years i know it wasnt you." i get the look, the look of oh shi& ive been caught. he then is trying like hell to get out of it....he never admitted it wasnt him..but didnt fight like hell cause it was.

i know it wasnt him. i just know it. so he is still lying to protect himself and to hell with me.

now for me.....i went out to an appointment alone yesterday...almost didnt come home but did. went to dog training with max, hubby also came. he dicided he was gonna handle max at class---that didnt go so well...max wouldnt listen to him. (i had to hold back the snicker...)so the trainer told hubby he better get with the program..he is only gonna get out of it what he puts in!!! boy arent those words to live by!
so i take over max and he is performing perfect again. i get real satisfaction out of that. he does love his momma!

thats it ladies---i have a client to go do this morning and then....who knows. hubby isnt talking and he isnt gonna be at work today---he has a training seminar in antoher town...he will call later. maybe i'll be here. maybe i wont......

I agree with Ark , about just presenting yourself to him as being at peace , not talking about the relationship etc.

Which in my case is becoming true. There is really only one need that I am missing out on , and the other day I read something where the woman advised the following;

That the BW suggest to her husband that they continue to have sex until she meets someone else (explaining that it might take time until she meets someone who she really cares for etc.) and that she would rather be with him in this way for the time being since he satisfies her so well and she enjoys sex with him so much...

Also to ask him if he could help her out by introducing her to some nice man, maybe he knows someone from work who is available...

Well, you get the idea, lol...bit of a wake up call, yes?

Shul

i'll have to think about that shul...LOL.

well today i am feeling better---went out to do a customer i do at home. she is a great lady and i love seeing her. always makes me smile. i then walked around a bit in the town she lives---quaint walking around area---lots of unique shops and "stuff". it was nice. came home---read a book for me---no relationship stuff---murder mystery. talked to a friend on the phone, picked up the pictures from vacation and tonight i went to a baseball game.

i'd say im getting out more!! hubby called to "check in". told me about his day and asked about mine---i told him i had a great day and was having fun.

asked if i could get a sitter for this weekend...sat night...i guess he wants to go out. (he knows i hate when he does this...if he wants to go out--then he should call a sitter. its a pet peve of mine.) so i will have to call the sitter---then i will get another call to make arrangements at a restaurant...you get the idea. i wanna just scream---DO IT YOURSELF!!! but i wont. so thats it for now...oh i did tell him i was thinking of going back to work. he kept asking about the bake shop i have...i am thinking of going back to what i do---hair---its fast easy money for me and will make me independant sooner. he was pushing the kitchen and i finally said i think i need to have a job that makes money for me. his answer was we can talk a bout this later. he'll never bring it up.....sooooooo

this is where i am...thinking of going back to my old profession for the money. any thoughts????

ok---as thought---he never brought it up.lol

this morning i asked him to read the stuff on passive/aggressive stuff that stillheremakingit posted to me. he read all i put up for him. finished walked out of the room and said nothing...went and got ready for work. kissed me goodbye and said have a good day....i answered---i am going to!

i am finally starting to live again...slowly but i am! the articles on Pas/Aggres have been an eye-opener for me. i am going to order some of the books they recommended. i am going to get my life back---hopefully he will to. but alas....that will forever be his choice.....

I'm glad Still posted that info for you. I thought it sounded an awful lot like how your husband was acting and reacting.

he actually told me later in the day that the boomerang article was dead on....but we would have to talk about it later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ---which just means we will never discuss it.
so now i have to figure it all out....and i know hes mad right now---called with 4 tickets to the yankee game for next tues...i asked what time is the game, its at 7 he thinks. ok we have a counseling appt at 4:15, so i figure we have time. he then goes on to tell me that we should leave around three. oookkkaaayyy- gently remind him we have an appt. his reaction is---oh shi#! sounds pisssy and tells me he will have to call and not accept the tickets. oookkkaaay---so if we dont leave when he wants we cant go.

i didnt stop him...hey, i would love recreational companionship as much as the next guy, and i love going to yankee games.....but not at the expense of counseling! so i didnt stop him.

he hasnt mentioned it since but im sure im in for a rash of passive/aggressive shi#!

oh well....