Given the incomprehensible amount of pain documented on this site, I think most of us are in agreement that in marriage, the proper sequence of events, when encountering problems or a "downturn" in marital bliss, would be:

1. Address the problem
2. (if 1 doesn't work) D
but never NEVER have an A!!

My question is: given an okay but less than stellar M, in which your spouse was satisfied and thus unwilling to work on the M, but you felt restless, what would you do?

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

TH,

THIS,is a great question because it was something my WH and I discussed one day months ago.

In a "nutshell",I told my WH that although I may not have been 100% happy all the time in my marriage(who is really?) I had many other areas in my life that are fulfilling and not only that,I am a very independant person,with minimal to moderate needs that can shift the attention around to fill in the gaps,so to speak.So,in other words,just because my marriage wasn't superb all the time,that didn't make me think,"Hmmm,I better go out and get my needs met by someone ELSE". I thought,"Well things aren't that great so I will go and do other things that make me happy".This is of course after I had talked about my feelings.

Whatever problems I perceived to be in my marriage,they were never that bad enough for me to ever consider betraying my WH.I would have left the marriage at some point BUT it would have taken A LOT for me to do so.

I believe that a mediocre marriage is better than being Divorced.There's always room for improvement and hopefully a couple can be as open and honest with each other,as Dr.Harley says,so that all issues and concerns are on the table,ready to be dealt with.Not kept inside,brewing resentment,anger,a longing for something or someone else.

That is why I was so incredibly shocked at what my WH did to me and us.While I was living one life,which I thought was with HIM in it,he was secretly drifting away,keeping his feelings deep inside until one day,he felt entitled to act upon his desires with this willing homewrecker.He admits that he doesn't know why he never sat me down and said "Look,I am feeling neglected sweetiepie(what he called me).I really need more spontaneous kisses and hugs to make me feel loved",etc.He never did that.And because I never knew how deep this need ran,I went about my daily living as usual,thinking that I wans't being a totally neglectful wife if he didn't complain to me.

Marriage is only one aspect of my life,albeit a very important one.I love the idea of being married,sharing your life with one person,always counting on each other,keeping special vows,showing our children a loving,happy home,growing old together.

But,I am capable of living without that because of what is currently going on with my WH.As much as it hurts me,I know that I cannot go on eternally with him cheating on me.I know plenty of couples that are going through far worse than my WH and I are but they are not cheating on one another to solve their problems.

So,all in all,if I felt restless,I would try to channel that restlessness into another area.I honestly felt that if my H was happy,I was happy.I was not looking for what can be given in return,just what I can give to my loved ones for their happiness.That fills me up.

O

Well, I don't really like any of the choices you listed. I believe there is another way. I don't know what that way is, but I wouldn't "suck it up," because that is no good.

Because, I believe if you do that long enough, you'll find yourself at option b., which doesn't sound great, either.

So just plain old D? I guess the timesframes are too lacking. How long do you wait? How much time do you give the spouse to think about MC or something else that would be mutually agreeable?

I don't think I would ever have an A. I also would not stay in an unhappy M. I guess for me, I feel that my H would want me to be happy, and if that meant taking a look at us, he would do that. The only time my H hasn't been receptive to my needs and feelings was during his A.

I believe prayer would give me another solution in that sitch, as well.

So, can you figure a way to put this long answer in a poll? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

Remember that phrase from Frank Pittman:

"A marriage isn't supposed to make you happy,it's supposed to make you married".

If we keep thinking that finding happiness rests within a marriage only,then we are all doomed.Happiness can be found within yourself and the rest is icing on the cake IMO.If you cannot find/be happy within you own world,looking for someone else to fill in those voids is a fools game.You will be continually looking toward the next man/woman to make it all better.

It's just like in that Psychology Today article I posted here a few months back.The search for the "soulmate", the "clone" of ones-self and keeping one foot out the door for that person who is BETTER than what we already have is failing us and our marriages.The grass isn't any greener,just a different type of grass with it's own set of problems.

We need to start making the most of the relationships we have NOW that many times includes children.They need and deserve to have 2 loving,committed parents towing the line and changing the ever growing number of dysfunctional,split families in this country.

Statistically speaking,if hopping to the next person is the answer,then why is the D rate even higher for second and third marriages and even worse for those who marry their A partners? I mean....Hello?

O

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Octobergirl and Spider Slayer, you've put a lot of good observations and opinions here, thank you for your time and your thoughts.

The reason I posted this poll is because I see a lot of people saying "I can't believe I found myself in an A - that is one thing I swore I'd never do, one thing I swore I'd never tolerate." I also see a lot of people saying "Though I wasn't the one to have the A I can see how easily it might have happened to me."

I also see a lot of folks who say they'd simply never be in an A because that is just not them. Not something they could do.

I see posters make the statement from time to time that if the M is so bad, you should just D rather than risk getting wrapped up in an A. Give yourself and your S the opportunity to find happiness elsewhere. To an extent I agree with this sentiment, because an A is never the answer. As O points out, though, many people follow this line of thought and end up believing the grass is greener on the other side when, in fact, it's just different grass (nicely put).

Talking it out, working on the problem areas - that is the answer. Sometimes Ms are "unbalanced" in that one partner feels a lack (and therefore a strong desire to work on the M) while the other partner is pretty content and therefore less motivated to put forth the effort required to make changes in their habits and behaviors. I believe this results in love bank withdrawals on both sides, but the person wanting changes in the M suffers the greatest decline in their love bank. So what do they do?

As Spider Slayer stated, the decision depends on timeframes, which will vary from person to person and situation to situation. It's a complex thing to analyze.

I personally never considered sucking it up permanently because number one that isn't helpful. It accomplishes no change when change is needed. Plus I know myself well enough to know I'm quite vulnerable to an A. I know that for *me* it's dangerous to think I'd never get into an A. That's something I'll have to keep my radar up for at all times, I think.

I agree that many needs are met outside of an M and that an M doesn't make a person happy. However if I have an activity I really enjoy (martial arts, or music, or coaching little league) then if I were dissatisfied in my M I would be at risk of "falling" for someone else who found that aspect of their life equally enriching. I'd be at risk of associating the person with the pleasure that the activity brings.

I considerd just D'ing but in my gut I felt like that would be giving up too easily. I'm one of those "give it all you've got" people. I shouldn't give it all I've got until I was an empty shell and at high risk of an A.

In the end I decided I'd keep trying to talk to my S, trying to explain my unhappiness, trying to get him on board - until I was depleted and empty, and then I'd probably D. It was a close call. I know that, for me, trying until I'm depleted puts me at a very big risk of an A. For me, the trick would be realizing when I'm vulnerable and quitting the M before things got "too far gone" and I found myself with an overdrawn love bank.

I think I'm saying what Spider Slayer said, but with even more words!

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "A marriage isn't supposed to make you happy,it's supposed to make you married". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is no justification for an unsatisfying marriage either.

I believe turtlehead's pre-condition is that the relationship had issues and one spouse was unwilling to change. I think it's the unwillingness to evaluate the relationship and make changes accordingly that quickly becomes the bigger issue. This grows into a huge lack of trust and respect.

As pre-condition to my returning to my marriage after my affair, my wife had to be willing to make some changes that she had not been willing to do before.

She rose to that challenge wonderfully.

Low

Low,

When Mr. Turtle and I went to a MC, that was just about the first thing out of her mouth. "A marriage isn't supposed to make you happy; it just makes you married." I thought to myself "Well of course a M can't make you happy - that comes from within. But it shouldn't make you miserable, either!"

I guess a lot of people look to another person to provide them with their own happiness. They must, for this to be so widely quoted.

Low,

I agree there should be happiness in a marriage and I am definitely not saying that people should stay in bad marriages eternally.I am an example.I am gearing up to leave because my WH does nothing,except see the homewrecker.A's are a special situation though I think.Like I mentioned before,it would have to take a lot for me to leave a marriage where pyhsical abuse and adultery were *not factors.I would give it my all for a long time before letting go.

Every case is different and each person is different so it makes planning and working on marriages a challenge.It's not an exact science.There are many variables but basic concepts do exist to live by within a marriage and Dr.Harley points them out.

"There is no justification for an *unsatisfying marriage either".

That statement is one in which I think people should be careful about.It's thinking like that,bordering on entitlement,IMO that can lead people to think that someone else is the answer to all the problems.Like I said before,the grass isn't always greener,it's just different grass.It's important to recognize that so people will feel that it's more important to try and work with what they have than what they MIGHT get the next time around.Does that make sense? That's my view anyway.

There's absolutely no argument that ALL couples should be doing their best within their marriages to make it satisfying to both.It should be one part of our lives though,not all of it so we need to attend to all the other areas in our lives that give it meaning:
children,hobbies,crafts,friendships,volunteer work,etc,etc.I truly believe that a well rounded life can contribute a great deal to a marriage.

TH,

I can really understand where you're coming from.I agree that one person can only carry a marriage alone for so long.It takes two.Most of what I talk about these days is how to change the behavior we are embedded in now,we can't change the fact that the A already happened.I don't want my daughters going through the same thing and I want people to start being educated more about what it is to be married,what to expect out of it,what you can do to change it and make it the best it can be and fulfilling and how to prevent horrors such as an A from happening.

Part of this desire I thinks stems from my background as an RN.It was an important part of my job to educate patients about their health and how to prevent many diseases from becoming a part of their lives through the *choices they make.Same could be said for the way in which they treat their spouses and their marriage.I would like to see all couples be as open and honest with each other as possible.It still confuses me why some spouses don't do this.I hear either: "I tried to get him to listen to me for years but he wouldn't"(WS) to "I never knew this is how she felt"(BS),etc.Like my WH.It seems that if the only problem in our marriage was this one thing that he keeps mentioning now,I could have easily fixed it had I known he truly felt this way.I WOULD have made it better,I loved him and would have done anything for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Anyway,thanks for the topic starter.It's good to reflect upon these issues and other's feelings.Some days I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.ugh

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's thinking like that,bordering on entitlement,IMO that can lead people to think that someone else is the answer to all the problems.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad you made this point again, as I'd meant to address it before but got wound up in my own thoughts.

Personally I think anyone who leaves one person for another person thinking things will be better is setting themselves up for a huge disappointment. I would only leave a M if I felt that life *alone* would be a much happier life for me, *and* if I felt I'd contributed all I could but my S just wouldn't get on board. It all comes back to realizing that the answers, and the happiness, are inside you - not in some magical "soulmate".

You're right, too, about a full life making a person a better marriage partner - to an extent. A person can become so wrapped up in their various activities that they cease to be available to their S. The optimum is to share some of those activities and interests with your S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear either: "I tried to get him to listen to me for years but he wouldn't"(WS) to "I never knew this is how she felt"(BS),etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy did you ever hit on something here! This is something I am struggling with in my own M. My first M dissolved because I felt I was beating my head against a wall and was not being heard. I'm headed the same place in this M. It has got to be that I don't communicate clearly enough, so I'm working on that. Though I'm not sure how much clearer I can get than "This is a make-or-break thing" and "This is very important to me" and "I'm unhappy in the M and I need us to do A and B".

Being in a blended family, discipline of the children is a challenge for us. My H feels that I defend my daughters when he disciplines them. He feels that I sometimes negate his position as head of the house (indeed, his membership in the family). He only told me this a month or two ago, and I've made great changes in my behavior as a result.

H told me last week that he'd gotten so frustrated with this dynamic of the M that at one point a few years back he just wanted OUT. I asked him why he didn't mention it to me, and he said he did, repeatedly. The only thing I ever heard him say back then was "You coddle those girls too much."

I don't know if the disconnect was in what he said or in what I heard. You hear all the time that "communication is the key" and I believe it is. It sounds so simple yet can be so elusive.

Turtle head,

Sometimes I'm slow, but I'm unclear here:
Is your question to be answered by  the me before my W had her A?
Or the me now, since I found out about her A?

For me the answer is different depending on which place and time you ask.

Because as far as being as you say "restless" or somewhat dissatisfied with the relationship.........I was that then and unfortunately am still that way even now.
So that part of the equation is pretty much the same. The reasons may be different (to an extent), but the feeling of dissatisfaction is still present in Both time frames.

Even so, my  answers considering the 2 points in time are very different.

Pre- A: I would have sucked it up and stayed Married (and NEVER) strayed, because that's just the way I thought it was supposed to be.
Neither cheating  nor Divorce was a serious option for me. (Perhaps occasionally thought about, maybe mentally played with.......but never given any REAL consideration).
Just my own value system ....or delusion (depending on your own point of view.)

(AHHH,  that is....unless she was unfaithful).
As we BOTH Always discussed and both agreed to this conclusion....... it's the only real Deal Breaker.

So now Post D-day:
I can confidently say I would have stayed both miserable and married  IF  no A.
(I already was in that situation). So no stretch there.
However, now that she has strayed, being miserable is no longer "Good Enough"!

Pre affair it was.      Post A,  it is not
 
I refuse to just "settle" anymore. And she has only herself to blame on this one.
So the post A  answer to the question is:  I would divorce.
But only because I  am dissatisfied in the M, not because of ANY Risk of an A on my part. Still no desire to do that to someone I care about.

I've  always known  that D would come Before any A (that's just me).
It's due to going through this situation as a child and having that shape who I am today (along with other things as well).

Unfortunately, I now  see that any  vow or promise taken by 2 can be broken by the other person, even if YOU yourself take the commitment seriously.
Knowing that reality, to  now  stay in an unfulfilling relationship, when the promise is already broken and the marriage shattered, at times just seems a very idiotic thing to do. Especially if,  as in your scenario, the WS is content in how things currently  are and won't work on the M  to the extent the BS needs them too.

Don't misunderstand. Things are going well for us, but  I'm still wrestling with whether or not this M is still the correct choice for me.
It still feels like I am having to settle, to just get over, to put up with  and she is pretty happy & comfortable  with the way things are.
 
Yes, things are better (much better); but still not good enough for me to "know" this is the best thing for me. I just don't feel anymore that its in my best interest to Settle.
Truly, I once did, but no longer. 
So if she doesn't rise to the challenge, I have some tough decisions to make. Sad but true.

I keep coming back and trying with her, but have seemed to run up against a wall.
I've made so much progress with myself, I just question the  continued frustration in dealing with the stalemate  with her.

In any case, we are starting a project together so perhaps that can make the difference. We'll see.

For any that want to claim I should have had higher standards pre-A,... I agree.
And its not so much that I didn't want a better M, its just that I had neither the knowledge nor the skills to change things. 
Now I think I do.
The quandary is why stay in a currently broken and forever tainted relationship when I now have the Skills, the tools (and desire) necessary to ensure ANY future relationship will be a success?

If I can come up with  some questions,  that when answered,  can truly help me with this dilemma, perhaps I'll post them.     Later

Oohh, Top Rope - great input!

I hadn't even considered the Pre-A / Post-A differences. I find that, for myself, it is exactly the same as what you describe. Before I would have settled (and unfortunately possibly gotten into an A, now that I know myself better and the warning signs etc. better). But I definitely would have stayed.

Now, Post-A, I have higher standards.
I suffer some guilt because of that, too. I second-guess myself and ask if I'm somehow punishing him. Am I setting the bar higher in an attempt to exact penance from him? I don't think so. I think I've learned a lot of valuable skills, I've tried to change and learned that I can. I can be a damn fine wife if I know what is needed. If the problems are laid out on the table before me in a non-confrontational manner. I expect the same of him.

I carry some guilt too because what we have now is better than what we had pre-A. It "should" be enough. But it isn't. I'm struggling with how to explain this to my H. Especially on how to present it without casting blame. I keep tossing ideas around in my head but they all come off sounding like "You're not good enough. You LB too much. You don't meet my needs. You have to heal the way *I* have found to heal."

It's a journey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "There is no justification for an *unsatisfying marriage either".

That statement is one in which I think people should be careful about.It's thinking like that,bordering on entitlement,IMO that can lead people to think that someone else is the answer to all the problems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, but you have it partially correct. I do, in fact, believe that God intends for us to live fulfilling satisfying lives. In a sense, we are entitled to such. However, we often sabotage our own entitlement. How? We fail to ensure and protect it.

I agree with you that a couple should work to create a satisfying relationship. I certainly believe it's possible. SH guarantees it!

While it is ideal to think that a person's happiness should not be influenced by outside circumstances, it would be naive to think that it isn't.

The apostle Paul learned to be content regardless of his circumstances. Do you think he would've continued daily beatings in a Roman prison if he had another choice?

No, in practice, unruly spouses can make life pretty unbearable for each other. In such cases, learning to be content may mean learning to accept the end of the relationship.

Low

What's that old saying....

Marry in haste ... regret at leisure.

Marry in haste ... regret at leisure.

No fair!!
I didn't know about MB when I M'd! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
I call foul!
(Am I allowed to do that?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ok,what I am driving at is: just what constitutes an unsatisfying marriage? A BAD marriage?

IMVHO,from reading on these boards here the past 8/9 months,I think that some spouses are choosing adultery for marital problems I consider to be less than extreme.Now,let me focus on the fact that I do NOT think there is ANY reasoning for adultery.Not one reason.

But,because maybe I don't get enough help around the house for example,I should bail on my H and go sleep with a janitor? If I don't get enough hugs and kisses I should let another man into my life and become intimate with me just because I dont get it at home? We're not talking about marriages where the H beats the he** out of his wife.Then by all means she should be out of that situation as fast as her legs can carry her.We are talking about emotional needs that can be used to excuse many peoples choice to enter into an affair.I am not saying everyone,but I think it goes along with the rising tide of entitlement.

The threshold for people to
"tolerate",if you will,this lack of emotional need filling seems to be smaller and smaller.Just like some of todays kids who balk at the idea of having to walk to school more than a mile when our parents did years ago.Or at the teenagers I talk to that see working at a grocery store as beneath them.As if they are entitled to more than what is available.Does this make sense? The more we have and the more we are bombarded with from the media that we should have more of something,better things and we shouldn't stop until we are superbly happy ALL the time.There is no *effort anymore,even in our relationships.It's all supposed to be there magically without the effort.That's one reason why,I think,that people change partners.The answer to my unhappiness lies with some stranger out there,someone who understands me completely,can meet all my needs all of the time without complaint.

The less we put up with means the more likely we will turn to other's to fill all those needs.Maybe our needs,except the most basic ones,aren't as unfulfilled as we think? Just throwing this out there.Have we been conditioned to believe that they are? I think so,at least to a certain extent.When you compare what we as American's have with those of third world countries,whose very basic needs include air,water,food and shelter,etc,have we been requiring too much of other's?

Have we been conditioned not to SETTLE? If I don't get exactly what I want every minute of every day and I am not 100% happy all the time,I have to go out there in the world and get it.I'm sorry but sometimes I feel like some people are cry babies,for lack of a better term.To me its like grow up.Life can be joyous and fulfilling but how about lowering the bar a little so it's not so hard for the ones we love to compete.

Ok,I'm rambling.Time for a tea break. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The less we put up with means the more likely we will turn to other's to fill all those needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I respectfully disagree. I think the less we put up with means the more likely we will be to work to resolve the issue. Turning to another person is admittedly a poor tactic for resolving the issue. But we shoudl attempt to resolve it noentheless.

While you see the glass as half empty, I see it as half full. People are much less likely to remain in an unsatisfying relationship these days because they are no longer trapped by their circumstances the way they may have been years ago. This a good thing. This has been driven primarily by the increased freedom women enjoy. They expect more from men. This is evidenced by the fact that women initiate the greater number of divorces.

In short, you are quite right. People expect more from their relationships these days. Is this a bad thing?

Low

O,

I appreciate your ramblings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've thought similar things, but not about third world countries. I've thought about Ms in the past when D was not as prevalent. Back then, when folks had to churn their butter, make their quilts, slaughter their hogs, render the fat, shuck the corn and store it in the crib for winter... I wonder if they weren't just focused on more basic needs, so that they didn't have time or energy to whine about how "unfulfilled" they are.

Of course, all kinds of expectations are different between third world countries or our own countries in the past. I mean, a lot of us would consider it a real hardship to do without a refrigerator, indoor plumbing, electricity, medicine. Given the choice between a life with our S but without those objects, and a life without our S but with the objects, I think a lot of us would choose the objects. I'm trying to equate the objects with emotional needs and various marriage skills. We are, in essence, choosing how comfortable we want to be and what degree of discomfort (or lack of luxuries) we're willing to accept.

Whereas in third world countries (or in our own countries in the past) survival was the most important thing, it no longer is, and we have the leisure time and energy to improve our lives -- including our Ms -- and so "settling" is no longer acceptable.

Maybe.

I'm just thinking out loud now. Can I have some of your tea? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Low,

We were posting at the same time.

I think O is right, we expect more from marriages these days than we used to. Like you, I'm not certain this is a bad thing. I think we are better equipped, time and skill=wise, to meet those higher expectations.

Is that good or bad? I don't know that it's either. I do think a richer M takes more work, and I'm personally willing to put that work in to the M. I think a lot of folks aren't.

Allow me an analogy: some folks are happy doing a job that isn't very demanding, or accepting a certain job when they could "do better". They could put more effort into their careers, but they're happy where they are. To them the payoff isn't worth the effort. I think marriages hit that balance, too. Hopefully both parties have a similar interest in investing into the M.

This is fun,I love debates.

Low,

I have to respectfully disagree with your disagreement.LOL.

"I think the less we put up with means the more likely we will be to work to resolve the issue".

I don't think this is happening which is why our member rate keeps climbing for example.You would think this would be a natural solution to marital problems,disuss it right? But instead,people are turning toward other's,our divorce rate is stablized at 50%,second and third marriage rates are abysmal including marriages to affair parters,which are even worse.Changing partners isn't the answer.I think I mentioned this already earlier.

I don't see any glasses half empty,I prefer the half full analogy myself.Also,I don't think that people are trapped in their marriages.Maybe in the ealier part of this century but from what I have read,women are persuing more D's because of that entitlment phase and being more independant with their careers and their financial states.Not all mind you but women are saying,"Hey,I have had enough and I want it all and I am going to find it with some man other than my H to give it to me".Again it gives rise to the false sense of security in finding a solution to problems with another.We ALL have problems,everyone has baggage,just varying types and degrees.

If this did not hold true,then the D rates for second marriages and thirds would be less.I just think that the answer is right under our noses.Life isn't hard but we make it that way.It's not wrong to expect a marriage to be fulfilling and satisfying but just what is more? Of what? and how much?

TH,

Tea for two! I am having Chamomile with honey,if that's ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let's see.First off,I only mentoned third world countries to illustrate the extremes.In all honesty,I think we are a bit spoiled here.And this is also evidenced by the increased disparity between rich and poor and the erosion of the middle class.The top 1% of the population is what gets all the attention.We are soaked with images of rich CEO's,celebrities,actors,singers all encouraging other's to be like them and have it all.Look at all the TV programs that are on: Who Wants to be a Millionare? Who wants to marry my dad for a billion dollars(whatever that dumb show is),Who wants to do stupid dangerous stunts for money(i.e. Survivior),Who's the next model that everyone wants to gauk at? MTV videos.etc.Money money money and people get stepped on in the process.Living the simple life is no longer even a blip on the radar.It's me,me,me and I want I need I must have.This mentality is what is affecting our relationships,our families,our children.It makes me sick.We are a big country of consumers and we are being brainwashed.The dumbing down of America is in full swing and it irks me that what is so superficial is so important to so many.

I think comfort is overrated.Just how much comfort do we really need to be happy? Are we not supposed to experience adversity? Is everything supposed to be so easy? Doesn't this allow us to expect so much of another but do less for the same? This is what ties into the area of working on a marriage for me.It's not rocket science,there are fundamental ways in which you can make your marriage a great one,Dr.Harley for example lists many of the ways we can.It's all there before us but why don't we chose to use that knowledge,what is holding people back? Why are some WS's not taking the opportunity to make their marriages better ones and prevent families from being destroyed.Why are BS's mostly the ones that are here,learning and supporting each other?

Hmmm.More to ponder.No wonder I can't sleep at night.My wheels can't stop spinning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

Originally posted by LowOrbit:
People are much less likely to remain in an unsatisfying relationship these days because they are no longer trapped by their circumstances the way they may have been years ago.

I disagree. Feeling "trapped by their circumstances" .... I am not sure exactly what you mean here, but I am wondering if you aren't saying this ---> People don't like the outcome of their choices, and therefore feel free to bail out rather than try to repair what is wrong. A lack of personal ownership of one's circumstances leads to repeat errors in life.

Are you saying the feeling of entrapment entitles disownership of one's circumstances?

This a good thing. This has been driven primarily by the increased freedom women enjoy.

What freedoms are you talking about? Sometimes this so called increased freedom becomes a new type of slavery. Freedom for me personally began the summer of love 1967 ---> make love not war... the sexual revolution ---> love is dope, pass it around... and this "freedom" cost me dearly later in life.

Women are free to choose a man who would make a good husband and father .... What do you think that criteria might be?


They expect more from men.

Like what? Like how? I don't see what you are saying... can you be clearer? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is evidenced by the fact that women initiate the greater number of divorces.

Women often have unrealistic expectations about marriage. And men.

Another old saying....

A women enters marriage hoping her husband will change SOON after the wedding.

A man enters marriage hoping his wife NEVER changes after the wedding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Sure Pep, I'll elaborate.

What I meant by being trapped by circumstances was economic dependence. Fifty years ago, women would have been more likely to put up with poor relationship skills from their H as long as he continued to provide a stable home environment (i.e. income)

Women are far less dependent on men for economic support, so they recognize that they have more options than they once did. Fear of economic hardship is less of a driver in their decision making.

Men have struggled to come to terms with this. Fifty years ago, all we had to do was bring home the bacon. Today, we are being asked to be so much more or we're out on our ear.

As you've mentioned, they have far higher standards for what a good husband and father is today. Men are expected to change diapers and actually be involved in their kids lives (as opposed to the guy on "That 70's Show" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) We have to work much harder to meet our wive's silly little (just kidding!) EN's or we stand a greater chance that she'll end the relationship. (Then who will iron my shirts? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Of course, along the way, we men are discovering that there might be something good about actually having real relationships after all...

Lest we think men have it all tough, I know many young men these days who expect the women they become involved with to be economically self sufficient. They don't want to connect with a woman who will be solely dependent on them. Too much pressure.

Fifty years ago, it was not uncommon for men to have a "woman on the side". It may even have been with the knowledge of their wives. But some wives chose to turn a blind eye because he was a "good provider". Do you think this is more or less prevalent today?

O's points assume that everyone who ends a relationship is doing it with the intention of replacing it with another without attempting to resolve the underlying issues. I don't deny that this happens. New freedoms that men and women enjoy when it comes to relationships certainly present them with more options than they've ever had. Working out the current relationship is an option. Finding a new relationship is an option. Ending the relationship without starting a new relationship is an option.

The mission here at MB is to help people gain the skills necessary to work out their present marriages. I do believe that is far preferrable to mandating that we revert to the marital dynamics of the early 20th century.

Low

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Low,

I have a few exceptions to take with your last post and I'll try to do that tomorrow but to illustrate some of what I am talking about on this thread,check out tra4bren's thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

Turtlehead,

I worry a little bit about what you are feeling and thinking. You have done such a good job with your advice, and you really have insight in to helping others.

Are you getting what you need from these threads of yours?

I think this one is a really good one - after all, before we can know if we are getting what we need, we ought to examine our needs and see if they are realistic. Needs verses wants. What is a real need, and what can we live with as we continue to work on things?

What is your H willing to do? Will he talk to you about things? Does he try to meet your needs. Have the two of you filled out the surveys and learned what each others needs are?

I don't mean to pry, but I would like to know where you feel you are now. Forgive me for worrying.

SS

Hello, Octobergirl

I did read tra4bren's thread. What I saw was a pitifully dysfunctional person who needs a lot of help. We are seeing a person who doesn't know how a marriage should work. Since she lacks these relationship skills, she doesn't see correcting her relationship as an option. I think this is the point of MB...to give people skills to make their relationships work.

I suppose that my primary point is that there is NOTHING wrong with having high expectations and standards. How we decide to respond when those standards aren't being met is entirely our own choice and has attendant moral consequences.

tra4bren's actions are not the result of having high expectations. She obviously doesn't have them of the men she becomes involved with or herself.

I can assure you that, after my affair, I am no longer willing to settle for a mediocre relationship. "Settling" is what created the disconnect that opened me up to the affair. No, I'm going to ACTIVELY love my wife and pursue resolution of those issues that I think we can do better with. I don't think it's fair that we cheat ourselves out of everything our marriage can be by lowering our standards and expectations.

Low

still seeking,

I so appreciate your interest!

I worry a little bit about what you are feeling and thinking. You have done such a good job with your advice, and you really have insight in to helping others.

You think so? I hope I do. Sometimes I feel a bit like a fraud, offering suggestions when I can't clean up things in my own life to my own satisfaction. I like people a lot, and have always leaned toward helping. I tutored in college, I do tech support now. I like touching people in some little way.

Are you getting what you need from these threads of yours?

Sometimes. When I don't, I think about what I posted and go back and reword it and post again, if the topic is still important to me. I have something weighing on my mind that I've been tossing around for a few days now, and will post on it soon. It's about whether or not my expectations for a M are realistic. I had a rough idea of that when I created this poll, and it seems you "heard" that. I was wondering where my M would go if it *doesn't* come to be what I hope it will be. I'm much more interested in building my M than H is. He thinks it's fine (has told me so).

I think this one is a really good one - after all, before we can know if we are getting what we need, we ought to examine our needs and see if they are realistic. Needs verses wants. What is a real need, and what can we live with as we continue to work on things?

Yes. And to make it more confusing, I think needs/wants are a grey area.

Some things are "must haves" - fidelity is one of my "must haves" for example.

Some things are on the other end of the scale - nice but certainly not necessary. For me I guess enjoying cooking might be something like this. Not even a want, really, but nice if it happens.

Then in between are a myriad of things which fit between wants and needs, and sometimes travel up and down the scale. Domestic support is typically a real need when children are young, for example, but perhaps only a want when newly married.

You said "what we can live with as we continue to work on things" - that was quite appropriate for me and where I am now in recovery. There are TONS of things I'd like to change. If I saw no progress at all I'd probably start working towards D. But when I do see progress, I think I can live with these things and keep plugging away.

What is your H willing to do? Will he talk to you about things? Does he try to meet your needs. Have the two of you filled out the surveys and learned what each others needs are?
Well, I can talk myself into being optimistic about this or pessimistic.

On the one hand, he has attended counseling with me and he attended anger management counseling and read up on anger management. His love busters dropped *considerably* for a few months but have crept back in during the last month, just a bit. I know he's made a big effort, and I hope it isn't a flash in the pan, that he strives to make this a permanent change. I am a "verbal" and "touching" person (Five Love Languages) so the LBs hit really hard. I need to let him know this.

He's also started reading Fall In Love, Stay In Love with me and now understands that it's not just a joke of mid-life that my libido is going ninety to nothing while his is practically dead. He understands that SF is a real need of mine and has offered to satisfy me when I ask, even if he's not in the mood. Sometimes he does, sometimes he pleads exhaustion or arthritis. But the ability to see SF as a real need is now there, and that's an improvement.

We read 50 or 60 pages and got to the EN questionnaire oh, 2 or 3 months ago. He's done his, I've done mine, and I bring up every weekend or every other weekend that I'd really like to go over the questions and get back into that book. I can't MAKE him want to do this. I can only tell him it's important to me and hope.

This is a big step, too. Before my EA he used to say he hated relationship talks. He still doesn't LIKE them, but now instead of saying "I hate them" he likens them to a dentist visit. Not his favorite thing to do but essential for the health of the M.

I don't think I'll go into the pessimistic view of things now, because I think I need to take the issues one at a time, decide if my expectations are real or not. Discover if each thing really is a big deal that needs to be addressed or if it's something I need to change within myself.

I don't mean to pry, but I would like to know where you feel you are now. Forgive me for worrying.

THANK YOU for worrying. It means so much.

Where I am right now is I feel I have learned SO MUCH in the last couple of years. About marriages, and especially about myself. I've learned the techniques here and I'm a zealot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I've learned some of the ways I LB and I am getting better at catching myself and avoiding LBs (H helped me with that). I can feel myself get irritated with H and then withdraw from H and I understand the dynamics behind that. I understand when and why I'm at risk for allowing someone else (male) to get too close and how to properly deal with it.

In some ways I feel like I've "outgrown" my H, and I'd like him to come up to speed. I feel we have huge potential if he would only get on board. Then I wonder if I'm trying to force him to heal the way I've found is good for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I've learned that I'm afraid to tell my H when things aren't going well, and why, and I'm working very hard on telling him anyway. This is my most difficult issue right now, because I want SO MUCH to change and I'm afraid of H's LBs. We don't have huge obstacles, we have a million tiny ones and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. Sometimes I wonder, too, if I'm making mountains out of molehills.

So I can look at our progress and all the good things H does for me and think we're okay and I'm expecting too much from my M.

Or I can look at how we handled things after his EA and how poorly that served us, and I think no! - we *have* to address all of this.

But it's all in my head right now and not out on the table where H can know about it and choose to do something (or not). I *told* you I had a hard time bringing up problems and dissatisfactions with H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I don't think just bringing it up out of the blue will serve me well, because I have tried in the past and H feels attacked. I made a list after my EA, of what I felt was missing and what could help protect our M. After his EA I, as a BS, would have *loved* to get a list like that. A blueprint of how to make my part in everything better. H, being unaware of MB principles, interpreted this as a "How Do I Hate Thee" list (his own words) and it was very painful for him.

I'm hoping to read Fall In Love, Stay In Love with H -- this will introduce him to ENs, LBs, Radical Honesty, POJA, all those things that I now feel are so essential to a marriage. We started months ago and stalled.

Then I hope to read a book on Affair Recovery with him, and address both of our EAs. We never addressed the cause of his and to be honest I don't think he wants to bother finding out why. He wants to say it's over, will never happen again, trust him. I tried that and it was a very lonely place with a huge elephant under the rug. Extremely uncomfortable and unsafe for me. I am NOT going to let it lie forever. It must be broght to light (for me to stay in this M).

I also find it curious that H hasn't asked *any* questions about my EA. It wasn't long lived, and we never exchanged "I love you" talk nor made plans for the future or any of that... when OM popped into my mind before H when I wanted to share something happy or amazing, or when I needed comforting -- I knew I was in over my head, and communication with OM ceased (though I'm ashamed to admit it was OM who suggested it first). So as As go it wasn't as "bad" as some we see here. But I'd still think H would want to know about it - how far it went, why it happened, do I miss him -- but he never asked. Odd.

There are some who would say I'm insane for not being totally happy in my M. H is intelligent, a good provider, keeps things fixed around the house, talks to me, cuddles with me, laughs with me, rubs my back. ALL of the tangibles are there.

What's missing is total honesty from H (I'll start another thread or post on that tomorrow), willingness to examine the As, an enthusiastic desire to gain M skills. There are some other issues to work through too like his LBs and the fact that he doesn't like my kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> -- but I think with the proper foundation we could work through those issues.

It's like we've got a fabulous surface M going, but I fear the foundation may be rotten. I'm not keen on staying in an M with a rotten foundation, no matter how rosy it is right now. How can you work through real issues with a rotten foundation? Maybe I'm being too demanding and expecting too much.

I'll get my thoughts together more and post on my expectations, and whether they're realistic, in a separate post. Am out of time at the moment.

Thank you for asking.