Marriage Builders
Posted By: svb1 Time to move on - 09/15/04 06:20 PM
I finally did it. I had the big discussion with my H. I asked him to leave.

My H came home from work yesterday and said that he will probably be switching locations at work (locally). I told him that it would be a good opportunity for him since he's so burned out at his current location. I also told him that it would be a good opportunity for him to find his own place to live.

I told him that I know that he doesn't want me to transfer to Europe with him. (not how I know, though) I told him that I know that he doesn't feel the same for me anymore. I said that since he didn't want to work on our M - discuss issues, go to MC, etc., that I think it would be best for us to separate. I told him that I still love him and that I never expected that we would end up this way. I said that if he ever considered re-committing to our M and going to MC, etc, I would think about getting back together. I told him that, as it is, it is too difficult for me to live with someone who does not love me. I need to move on. I told him that I am improving myself (I apologized for my part in getting to this situation in our M and gave examples) and will continue to work on myself. I also told him that it would benefit him to work on his issues with his father and his emotional abuse issues - if he ever wants to have another R. I think I basically voiced him a plan B letter. I'm not sure about the no contact part, though. Maybe this is more plan D than plan B.

He took it ALL in. He had kind of a look of surprise and sadness on his face, but never looked at me directly. He also NEVER said a word - even after I got it all out. It just confirmed to me that he's done with this M and that he'll probably take me up on the offer to move out. I told him that he can start his life over and have his freedom - just what he wanted. I am "letting him go." I told him that he doesn't have to worry about me "watching" him all the time anymore.

After my speech, we watched the "Amazing Race," one of our favorite shows (since we both love travel and adventure). It was as if I never brought up the subject. We laughed a little and made some comments about the show. Afterwards I went to bed.

I tried to keep myself together through my whole speech and be strong. I wasn't angry or negative. I couldn't help choking up a bit and getting all teary eyed, though. I really tried to fight it. I didn't want to appear weak or needy. Now I feel a little better - sad- but relieved that it's out in the open. Now I just have to wait to see what he will do.

<small>[ October 31, 2004, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: DiceMan Re: I asked H to leave - 09/15/04 06:32 PM
Congratulations on taking what must have been a difficult step. But what is next? Suppose he doesn't move. Sounds from his initial reaction...saying nothing watching TV, that he may return from work today and continue as though he never heard you. Pray, pray, pray!! Good luck with what must be a sad event! Ken
Posted By: LINY Re: I asked H to leave - 09/15/04 06:39 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by svb1:
He took it ALL in. He had kind of a look of surprise and sadness on his face, but never looked at me directly. He also NEVER said a word – even after I got it all out. It just confirmed to me that he’s done with this M and that he’ll probably take me up on the offer to move out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey sv...never posted to you and honestly don't know ytour story. However, I read this and the above jumped out at me--this is me!

You seem to be at a peaceful place after saying this, and I do not want to get your hopes up or anything--you know your H better than anybody. But, my FBS says the same thing about eye contact and "say something damnit!" He's taking it all in. He's going through his mind how this is *really* going to affect him. This is a test for him: pride or marriage? There's nothing for him to say now. His actions have told his story and you put it all out there. He's already "spoken". Now, he has to decide. (Is this the first time you have put it all out like this? Curious.) This is *his* deciding moment: does he go for the three or foul out? Be "grateful" he didn't react. (Yes, some sarcasm in there.) I'm not saying this is it--the final decision. But in his mind, it is for *you*.

This is just my persepctive. I may be totally off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I hope--for you--things work out for *you*.

Best wishes!
Posted By: Cymanca Re: I asked H to leave - 09/15/04 06:54 PM
svb 1,

Bravo!!!! I admire your courage and the way YOU are now IN CONTROL.

Now the hard part. You got to walk the walk after you have given him that talk!!!!( pardon me Johnny Cochran)
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/15/04 07:18 PM
DiceMan, I'll give him a little time to think about it. He can stay if he can prove to me that he wants to commit to our M. Otherwise, if he doesn't want to leave, I will leave.

LINY, this is the first time that I've laid this all out to him like this - either commit to the M or leave. I have been plan Aing for quite a while now. I have realized, though, that, although he's noticed changes in me, he still wants to live his life in the future without me. I'm tired of waiting for him to say or do something, though. If he doesn't want me, I need him to let me move on with my life.

As for him not looking at me or saying anything , I've noticed that he does this often in discussions. In the past, before plan A, I WOULD get upset with him and try to MAKE him say something. He would only get furious. But now I know that he heard me. Maybe now he just needs time to think about things and decide, like you say. A little part of me thinks and hopes that he might decide to stay afterall - maybe he will wonder if leaving is really what he wants. But mainly I think that his mind is already made up and that he will leave. It is up to him now. I know that, either way, I will be OK.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 09/15/04 07:27 PM
svb, I think you did just a beautiful job. Hopefully, it will inspire him to open up to you becuase there is just no hope unless he is honest.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/15/04 07:34 PM
Thanks cymanca. It'll be difficult, I know, but I will do it. I'm just so tired of being in limbo. Like I said, I will be fine no matter what happens. I would look forward to him deciding that he wants to stay and work on our M, but I would also look forward to starting over on my own, if necessary. I just want to DO SOMETHING.

Thanks, ML. I'll keep you posted on what he eventually says. He works late tonight, so I probably won't really have a chance to see him until tomorrow night. Hopefully it will give him enough time to chew on this and be able to talk to me then.

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/17/04 03:50 PM
Here's an update.

My H called me at work yesterday (rare) to tell me that he found out more about his new position. It is only temporary (about 6 weeks) to help open up a new facility approx. 2 hours away. He will be starting on Monday. He said they will probably put him up in a hotel during the week and that he can come home on the weekends. Since I was at work on the phone, I didn't go into anything with him. I pretty much just listened and told him again that this sounds like a good experience for him. But I kept thinking, "why bother even coming home on the weekends?"

At home last night, he didn't even mention anything about the talk that we had the other night. I am wondering if he is trying to ignore that it ever happened.

I know that he heard me, though. The very next morning after my talk, I overheard a conversation with his sister. He told her that I suggested that we separate. He then mentioned to her that he heard someone say something on tv (Dr. Phil) --that before a couple separates, they have to be sure that they did everything that they could to save the marriage beforehand -- otherwise they will never be at peace. He said to his sister, "so my question is -- have I done everything to save this marriage? --- I don't know." I know the answer to that question -- he has done NOTHING. I just don't get it. He has been telling his sister in the past that this M is over.

I mentioned his comments to my brother. My brother thinks that my H is still done with our M, he just wants to sound like the "good guy" to his sister.

I don't know what to think. I have to talk to him again before he leaves. I have to ask him if he "heard" what I was telling him because I am very serious about him leaving. I want to suggest that he stay there on the weekends as well.

Now up until the time that he leaves, how do I act? Plan A, Plan B, or 180?

svb
Posted By: believer Re: I asked H to leave - 09/17/04 04:04 PM
You've done just fine. Now until he leaves, I would stay in Plan A, and write out just what you told him, in a Plan B letter.

When he leaves give him the letter, which should mention that to preserve your love for him, he needs to stay away on the weekends.

Please do not skip Plan B. That is an essential part of the MB program.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/17/04 04:17 PM
Thanks Believer.

I will put it in writing and give it to him.

svb
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 09/17/04 04:47 PM
hmmm, I think believer has a great idea. See, Plan B is supposed to break up an affair, but I don't see why it wouldn't be effective in this situation. That way he can be clear what he has to do to come back. He can't hide from the truth or pretend this all away.

And there is really no reason to continue in a quasi-Plan A, svb, you have already shown him your best side.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/17/04 06:05 PM
Hi ML,

Yes, it is a good idea. I'm going to give him a letter. I have to work on putting one together.
I'll insist that he stay away for the entire time. He can use the time to decide what he really wants to do.

I'm only afraid he'll blow off the letter, like my talk, and still come home on the weekends. I could always make plans to be away on the weekends - if that is the case.

I'll just have to try and see what happens.

<small>[ September 17, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 01:42 AM
OK, I think I might have ruined my plan B opportunity.

My H is officially gone. He left last night. I thought he was going to leave tonight, so I didn't have the plan B letter ready to give him. That's mistake number 1.

On Friday he called me at work to ask if I wanted to go out that night. We ended up going out to dinner. We had a nice time, and I stayed away from R talk. He didn't bring it up either. When we went to sleep, he snuggled with me all night long.

On Saturday, I had to work. He stayed at home to pack. I set up my voice-activated recorder. I came home from work and we ate, and then had coffee. I asked him if he heard anything at all that I told him the other night about him leaving. His first reaction was, "I don't want to talk about it." I said, "We have to." I gave him a short version of what I told him the other night. I told him that I need to know if he wants to work on our M, otherwise there is no point to him coming home, even for the weekends. He said, "Did I ever say that I didn't want to work on our M? What makes you think that I don't?" I told him that it was a feeling that I had. I told him that he never wants to talk about our issues, although he's mentioned in the past that we have issues, and that he doesn't want to fill out any questionnaires or go to counseling. At that point he started getting ready to leave. He already had his suitcase in the car. I said, "You're going now?" He said that he'd rather leave tonight than tomorrow at 4am. He said he would stay if I wanted him to. I said, "No, that"s OK, I don't want you to have to get up that early." We hugged for a long time when he left.

After he left, I listened to the recording. He had called his mother, his favorite sister, and his niece yesterday. His mother knows nothing about our situation. He is apparently shielding her. He told his sister that he is leaving and that he will come home on the weekends and that I can go visit him on some weekends, too - although his impression was that I didn't want to go visit him. He also told her that I was "colder" or more detached since I had my "talk" with him. He told his niece that it appears that I have in my mind that our M is over and that I am preparing for a D. He said that he is very sad to be leaving, but happy at the same time. He said it is very sad that our M is ending. It is sad that his career is taking off, but his M is ending. He said, "I guess you can't have it all." He said that after the six weeks he might find a small apartment to live in.

Well, after I listened to all of that, he called me to tell me that he had arrived. He was very talkative and told me about his co-workers that he had met at the hotel and about the job they were about to do. We talked some more about our R. I asked him again if he wants to work on our M, because, ultimately, that is what I want to do. He said, "I don't know, I'm tired, I'm just tired." He asked me, "Why is it that, for years, when I was upset and wanted to work on issues, you wouldn't listen to me, and now that YOU are upset, we have to work on our M?" I told him that I didn't understand how seriously he felt. I told him that now he has scared me into realizing how serious he was. He told me that he never wanted for us to live separate lives while married, like we've been doing. I said that I didn't either. So I said, "What are we going to do?" He said, "We'll see - we'll talk later."

So, honestly, I don?t know what to do now. This is the first time we have both talked about our R in a long time. This is the most that he's opened up to me in a while. And although I felt very positive after I got off the phone with him, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that he didn't really tell me or promise me anything at all. Maybe mistake number 2 was talking too much about our R. I tried not to sound needy. I am just so weak.

He sends me so many mixed signals. First he tells his sister that our M is over, then he tells her that he's not sure if he's done everything that he could before we separate. He's happy to leave and sad to leave at the same time. He wanted to spend time with me and he snuggled with me before he left. He wants me to come and visit him.

Can someone tell me what is going on in his mind? And what do I do at this point? Should I continue doing plan A? Or should I mail him a plan B letter?

Did I screw up big time?

<small>[ October 31, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 01:56 AM
svb, I don't think you screwed up at all. I suspect he is just dragging it out and has no intention - right now - of working on your marriage. I still think it is a good idea to give him a Plan B letter.

In it, you should tell him that you have decided to end contact and that means he shouldn't come home on weekends. If he doesn't respect that, then I would be prepared to change the locks. You can't be expected to vacate your home on the weekends.

Can you email him the Plan B letter?
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 03:25 AM
No, I can't e-mail it to him. The best I can do is put it in the mail first thing tomorrow.

I suppose I'll do that.
Posted By: weaver Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 11:25 AM
Svb1 -

Looks like we have a few ready to go into Plan B.

I like the way Cymanca puts it, you done the talk now walk the walk!

You can do this and you know why?????

Because you are a MB'r! GOOOOOO Sbv Go!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 01:42 PM
Thanks Weaver.

I do really need to stick to plan B.

This is REALLY tougher than I thought.

I guess I'm terrified that I'll lose him forever.
Even though, many times, I think I'm better off without him, I really don't want to lose him.
Posted By: weaver Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 02:46 PM
Your not going to lose him. But you must be tough on this, you have nothing if he doesn't respect you and your marriage.

Set him free through your Plan B, then he will be free to come back fully and completely.

Read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough if you haven't already. It really helped me when I ended contact with my ex. The first three weeks of NC were hard for me because my mind wouldn't stay quiet. However after that it became really nice. A certain peace has set in, and it feels so good. My ex just wrote me an 8 page letter telling me how sorry he is, etc. But I'm still not reading anything from him that tells me there has been signifant growth on his part, so I will not see him. I won't take his calls because I found they upset and confused me.

You can do this and this will not cause you to lose him, sitting by and enabling his waffling will do more damage to your marriage than Plan B.

Weaver
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 03:52 PM
You're right, Weaver.

Love Must Be Tough is the book that my brother recommended to me. I did read it. It is what led me to talk to my H in the first place.

It's just that it's tough being tough.

I'm going to skim through the book again. I guess I'll have to look at it again and again.

I don't know what I'd do without you guys.
You are helping me to do the right thing and stay my course.
Thanks

<small>[ September 20, 2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: SureSurvivor Re: I asked H to leave - 09/20/04 04:49 PM
Svb,

I have been reading your thread and I want to send a message of support. I understand your fears I had them too. I did a great Plan A for about six months, but I could feel my love slipping away. I went to Plan B, but I really prepared for it. I printed out a calendar and then did research on things I wanted to do. I had something for just about every day for a month. They ranged from small things like having my hair done to big things like a mini-vacation for me. The only times I missed WH was when I had nothing to do. Being busy helped me to stay dark. And there were days I forced myself to stick with the plans....some days I just wanted to go home and mope.

WH gave me all the same lines about being undecided and wanting to be alone. I felt good when I set him free. The best part was it gave me time to heal and as Ark would put it not be part of the chaos anymore. It helped to prepare me when WH wanted to come back which was after about two weeks. My story is on Plan B update: WH coming home and going to MB weekend. Pretty wierd, huh?

Anyway, hang in there...plan somethings that you like to do and stay dark..stay strong. The breather will be very welcomed. Good luck and God bless.

<small>[ September 20, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: SureSurvivor ]</small>
Posted By: smurfgirl Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 05:27 AM
I say this to my H and he acts like I'm nuts! (I've told him I wanted to move on and I think he should) lol I know I'm not anyway. I tell him this and he starts saying that I need to go to counceling and stuff. Maybe I do, but I'm also stuck in that realization that I will never be TRUELLY happy with him. I want to move on. He thinks that since he wants to work on the marriage, and is a way better person then before that I should be happy or something. But I'm not. He also isn't enthusiatically trying to help us to repair, and if he is truelly sorry and truelly wants us to be together, then he should work his hardest to fix the damage he caused. Not that I wouldn't, but if I'm going to be with him then I expect that he would do things without me pushing him.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 03:17 PM
SS, I just read the post that you referred to. It is very inspirational to me. I am very happy that plan B has worked for you.

I would LOVE to be able to attend the MB seminar this weekend, especially since we are already in the Philly area. Oh well, I guess it's not meant to be, yet.

I like your idea of the calendar. I do plan on keeping busy. I signed up for a fitness class. I plan on going to the gym regularly. This is part of my journey of making myself a better person, inside and out. I need to schedule more activities.

Thanks for your support.

Smurfgirl, are you guys currently in counseling? Is he willing to go to MC?
Posted By: lostnhurt Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 04:06 PM
Do you have kids? What do you do with them?
Posted By: smurfgirl Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 04:10 PM
We were then our family got sick for awhile in spring then school got out and I had no one to watch my son so I could go. Now that school started I feel as though I shouldn't have to be the one AGAIN to make all appts and everything. I see no initiative in him and it makes me think he is not commited. I understand that he has ADHD (he doesn't use this as an excuse though) but I have ADD and I can still take priority enough to make appts and say join this site, or read or something. I have to shove everything in his face to get him to do it. It makes me feel as though we aren't that important to him.
Posted By: Genia Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 04:25 PM
Hi,

Sounds like maybe he might want it to work. I am not sure what to say. Sounds like you still love him. I feel for you. I am going through similar stuff. I think I need the tough love book too.

<small>[ September 21, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Genia ]</small>
Posted By: smurfgirl Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 04:58 PM
I'm sorry, I made a post about this but no one has written back, is there a place on this site that I can read up on what is plan a and b?
Posted By: smurfgirl Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 04:59 PM
I'm sorry, I made a post about this but no one has written back, is there a place on this site that I can read up on what is plan a and b?
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/22/04 05:08 AM
Lostnhurt, we do not have any children. So, thankfully, our situation will be a little easier than for those who have children and are in plan B.

Smurfgirl, at this point I would give my right arm to get my H to want to go to marriage counseling - even if I had to make the appointments myself. If you really want your marriage to work you might consider making the appointments. Then you could possibly bring up the issue in couseling of him not be committed to making things work. Also, at least you will know that you have done everything that you could to work on your marriage and have no regrets. If he tells you that he doesn't want to go to MC, well, that's a different story.

Just my 2 cents (I've always wanted to say that.)

Genia, I really hope that you're right that he might want to make things work. I guess I will find out sooner or later.

BTW, I do really recommend Love Must Be Tough by Dr. James Dobson.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/22/04 05:17 AM
Smurfgirl, if you go to the home page of this website and click on "articles," it is listed there. Just scroll down until you see the article, "what are plan A and plan B?"

<small>[ September 21, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/22/04 05:24 AM
Plan A and Plan B are in "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley.

Read the links below for a bit about them.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 07:49 PM
Ok, the letter is in the mail. It's a little later than I wanted, but at least he will get it before this weekend.

Should I answers his calls until I know that he's received the letter? Or should I go dark beforehand? I can pretend to be out.

Any thoughts?

<small>[ September 21, 2004, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/21/04 09:19 PM
Did anyone review the Plan B letter before you sent it?
Would you post it here?
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/22/04 12:30 AM
Just a good friend/co-worker of mine who is well aware of my situation and of the MB concepts. She is currently reading my copy of His Needs Her Needs.

I can post it here first thing in the morning.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/22/04 01:34 PM
OK, here is the letter that I sent. It's too late to make any changes, but let me know what you think. I used SureSurvivor's letter along with other plan B letters posted here as guides.

He did call me last night. I felt bad for sending the letter after I talked to him. I still feel that way a little. I won't call him for the rest of the week now and I won't answer his calls either.

Anyway here it is:

Dear H,

This is a very difficult letter for me to write. I have thought a lot about our marriage and where we are going. It is truly sad what has happened to us and to our marriage. I never imagined this would happen to us. When we married I thought it would be forever and never considered that we would be living separate lives one day. The thought that we may not grow old together truly pains me.

I know that you've been unhappy for a long time, for many reasons, some of which you may not even be aware. I know that my behavior in the past has contributed in part to your unhappiness and the emotional distance between us. I've worked very hard these past 6 months to overcome that behavior, not only for you, but for me as well. I wanted to be a better wife, but also a better person. People can change if they're willing to take a long, hard look in the mirror. I think I am doing that and I'm proud of the person I'm becoming.

You know my thoughts and feelings. I love you and have ALWAYS loved you with my heart, my mind and my body. I want to be with you and work on making our marriage the best ever. I am ready, not just to live together, but to devote wholeheartedly to our marriage. I commit to you and our marriage, but it takes two of us. I know that when we try together we are a great team. I know that we can learn from our mistakes and grow from them. With effort and desire, we can rebuild our love. I believe we can have a marriage based on trust and honesty where we both feel safe sharing our innermost thoughts, feelings, fears and dreams. I believe we can have a happy, loving, fulfilling marriage.

I apologize to you for my part in the breakdown of our marriage. I made you feel that other things were more important than you—that is the furthest from the truth. You are the most important, special person to me above all else. I often put my feelings first. I am sorry for hurting you—by neglecting you and your feelings. For instance, I did not respect your desire to want to spend time with friends. I never understood how important this was to you. I was closed-minded and had a difficult time understanding that not everyone thinks like I do or wants everything that I do, even my husband. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I have made in the past and create a NEW life for us that will meet your needs. You have noticed the changes in me and see that I am trying. I want to continue to grow as a person and as your partner.

I look back through our life for fourteen years and choose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I am trying to forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I hope with all of my heart that we can both put aside our bad feelings and frustrations and see the good and the hope.

As much as I want to work on our marriage, and spend our lives together, you have made it pretty clear that you don't, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life. I've suffered tremendous pain from seeing our marriage fall apart. The past few months have been the most difficult time of my life. It has been even worse than losing my father. The pain and emptiness that I experience every day is almost too much to bear. I can’t go on “pretending” that everything is OK when the most important person in my life no longer loves or wants me. It is destroying me and my love for you. I ask you to please not come home for the weekends or call me. It would be too painful and confusing for me. Use this time to think about what you really want. I sincerely hope that you find what you are searching for in life, whether it includes me or not. If you choose to come back and work on our marriage, I want to know that you made the decision on your own.

As soon as you are willing to discuss a plan to work on our marriage, then I will be willing to talk about our future. Otherwise, if you need to contact me for any emergency, please leave me a voicemail at home or at work.

I want to be able to rebuild our marriage into a new life where we meet each other's emotional needs and do everything that makes BOTH of us happy. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me, and I want you to be my best friend, my lover and my husband.

I love you with all my heart,
Posted By: smurfgirl Re: I asked H to leave - 09/23/04 05:34 AM
I guess I can try again. As I said though we went to mc before but he just never showed any extra effort, I think I should be treated and cared about more then that especially after what he did.

One thing about ADHD is the recurring theme that it seems as though they just don't care. I'm hoping when he gets on meds it clears this and proves to be his disorder rather then his feelings for us.

I hope plan B works for you. u will be in my prayers, best of luck.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 09/23/04 03:42 AM
You asked if you should take his calls -

What would feel the best to you?
How do you want to do it?

How are you doing now, after having written the letter. It is a relief, or do you have a lot of doubt?

Wishing you all the best.

SS
Posted By: zizzycool Re: I asked H to leave - 09/23/04 10:37 AM
Hi...i dont know all your story but your posting caught my attention...is there an OW involve?

You WH sound just like mine...you have do a bit of tip toeing if you want to win this game. It is like a cat and mouse game.

Plan B is to cut WH out and complete darkness. I dont think your WH is the type that can take a total darkness...especially the way you describe his reaction...definately sound like mine. I tried that total darkness and it did not make any difference to WH but it did help ME.

What i suggest you do is implementing tough love...tough but loving at the same time. The method of tough love is slightly different from plan B...this is my opinion. Sort of a semi plan B...but you must be very very strong emotionally to do this correctly...if you keep doing it wrong then it is best you do a complete darkness aka plan B.

I will give you an example...when he calls you..DO NOT TALK MUCH AND DO NOT FORCE THE ISSUE ABOUT WORKING ON MARRIAGE...if he asked you out...GENTLY TELL HIM THAT YOU HAVE PLANS THAT DAY AND SUGGEST ANOTHER DAY...do not simply jump up and run out with him just because he offer to go out with you or to help you...make him beg but in a nice sort of way...be flirty if you have to...act cheerful...most important and at the same time...work on yourself.

Stop asking him about the marriage...let him ask first and if he does...act like you dont care and proceed to avoid the subject...let him insist on it.

It is not easy...but you sound strong enough to do it...

I realise that Plan B do not work on all WS...but nevertheless...it DEFINATELY works on all BS.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/23/04 06:48 PM
Here’s (sort-of) a quick history of my situation. My H started acting strangely beginning last Oct/Nov. He became mean, cold, distant, no SF, etc. He would say things like, “I’m tired of doing everything for the both of us around here, and I’m going to take care of myself from now on.” ???!!!???? I asked him if he loved me and he would say, “I don’t know.” Every time I tried to talk to him he would tell me to “leave him alone” and he needed his space. This is when I started suspecting an A. I asked him and he denied it. I started to snoop. Towards the end of February, after counting his condoms regularly, I noticed that one was missing. I confronted him and again, he denied everything. After this confrontation, he started to change his behavior again. We resumed SF, he began to talk to me again and spend more time with me. I found MB at this time, in March. I still kept snooping. I started plan A. Then I noticed that he would put 48 miles on his car regularly on some of his days off. When I would ask him what he did on his days off, he would say, “nothing.” Twice I found two empty condom wrappers in the trashcan in his bathroom. I started to use a voice-activated recorder in the house to see if he was bringing someone home on his days off. I never heard this happen, but I discovered that he was calling his favorite sister and her daughter to confide in them about our relationship. He has been telling them that our marriage is over and that he is trying to get transferred to Europe for work and go alone. It has always been our plan to go together. He told them that he would lead me and his employer to believe that we would be going together so that he could get more pay and better housing while he was there. Then he would go by himself.

Although his behavior towards me has been better, I still feel that he is disconnected. He keeps secrets from me – like his trips on his days off (every other week now) and his plans and hopes for the future. He does not want to fill out any questionnaires or go to MC. I think he is just stringing me along until he decides what he wants to do in his life and gets what he wants (a promotion and/or transfer to Europe.)

I just can’t tell if he is really decided that it is over, or if he is just confused. He just turned 40 last year and I wonder if he is going through some sort of mid-life crisis. He is not fully happy at work, either. He has only been staying so far in the hopes that he could get transferred overseas, but (from what he tells his family) it doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.

It was just crushing to me to find that, after doing plan A for about 6 months, he’s still doing these things and planning on leaving me. Thus my decision to go to plan B. It just seems like perfect timing since he has this temporary position (6 weeks) at work. I really feel like I need to protect myself.

So, in the end, I don’t really know for sure if he has an OW, or not. If so, I don’t think that he’s very emotionally attached, but who knows.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/23/04 07:03 PM
still seeking,

Once I sent the letter, my initial feeling was of relief. I do have my moments of doubt, though - especially after he called me on Tuesday night.

He did not call me last night, nor did I call him. I figure he will get the letter either tonight or tomorrow, so I will not answer his calls anymore.

Tho' I have my moments of doubt, I think it is best that I stick to this plan B. Who knows, I could be screwing up royally by doing this. Maybe this plan B letter will help make up his mind to leave me forever. I am also afraid that he will come home this weekend anyway. He doesn't have any respect for me. If he comes home on Saturday, I will make sure to leave. I can't change the locks since we rent.

zizzycool,

Are you saying that you think that my H will or will not be able to handle me going dark?

Your version of plan B sounds a little like the divorce busting 180 plan.

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 09/23/04 07:09 PM
I liked your letter, it has a lot of *you* in it.

One of the things that the WS has the most problem with is the terms for reconcillation. The letters usually tell them we are willing if they want to work on the marriage, but I have noticed over the time I have spent here that they often don't understand this part very well.

If he does have questions, you may want to answer them before going completly dark. Depends on how well you are doing, as much as anything.

Perhaps you have already spelled out what you need (honesty, counseling, desire on his part shown by his actions, etc.) If so he probably understands.

I think you did a good job in the letter, I applaud your efforts, and I hope you find the happiness you are looking for.

You have come a long way since you first posted on MB. I know sometimes the hurt is still there, but you look lots better these days. It's hard to offer real support over the fiber optics line, but we help as much as we can. Please know we care.

I do admire your courage, it is not easy to make these kinds of decisions. Remember that you are not alone - you have lots of friends.

God be with you.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/24/04 03:30 AM
Thanks, SS. That means a lot to me. I do feel better, overall, and I owe it all to MB and the people on this board.

I really hope I've made it clear what I need from him. I think I did. We'll see.

My H didn't call me again tonight. I think he might have received the letter today. The reality of what I did is starting to sink in. I'm getting a little scared. Oh I hope I didn't just ruin any of my chances with him.

Oh well. I did everything I could. I followed the plans. I did do a good plan A. And now I set him free. If he doesn't want to come back to me and work things out, then I guess it's not meant to be. I'll recover and have an awesome life anyway.

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: graycloud Re: I asked H to leave - 09/24/04 03:50 AM
That's the spirit, sis!

I agree with SS - I've seen lots of people in plan B whose WS didn't get it, and just thought the BS was angry and giving them the silent treatment.

Oh I hope I didn't just ruin any of my chances with him.

My worry about plan B is the same. I'm going to rewrite my letter. Some things about it I like, but it just feels too form-letter-y. Anyway, if I'm going to do a proper (i.e. strict) plan B, then I have to consider it very possibly the last act of my M. After that, it's out of my hands, and if it ends, I have to feel I've done my best.

Letting go of your attachment is hard, but it is also freeing. Plan B is fascinating for its contradictions. The only way to get yourself back is to let go, and it might also be the only way to get your WH back. If you take it far enough, the getting your WH back part is almost gravy. Ask thefurnitureman.

Yeah, I don't really believe that part yet, but I'll be in plan B soon myself. We can commiserate. Keep this thread as your plan B journal. It will be good to see your progress all in one place.

GC

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>
Posted By: weaver Re: I asked H to leave - 09/24/04 10:59 AM
I'll recover and have an awesome life anyway.

Yes you will! ...& ditto all the others.


Weaver
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 09/24/04 12:32 PM
I've been reading you.. just lurking around a bit... way to go!!!!!.. you've come from a long way.. and guess what??? Things can only get better from here.

Big hugs...
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/24/04 02:18 PM
GC,

I read your plan B letter. It doesn't sound form-letter-y at all. I feel that YOUR plan B letter puts MY plan B letter to shame! I do know what you mean, though. I felt the same way about mine after I wrote it. I did take a lot from other plan B letters posted here. I just added some of my own comments and tried to make it sound more like me. I think maybe we feel that way because we've seen so many plan B letters and they are all done from the same basic formula. I feel pretty safe in that my H has not seen a plan B letter before. I just hope that he really gets the message, that's all.

I wish you the best of luck once you're in plan b. And you know what? Plan B is "so crazy that it just may work."

Thanks Weaver and Harudah for your support.
Harudah, I've been reading your posts, too. I'm a little worried about you! You're not following any plans! Keep updating us here please.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/24/04 03:18 PM
You know, I had a thought. A fantasy, if you will.

I guess I am supposed to be focusing on myself and my future now. Well, I've started looking into a new job - one that will take me back to my hometown, or anywhere away from here.

I found one organization that has a location in Germany. They are filling positions there. Wouldn't it be something if things don't work out with my H and I get a job in Europe, and he doesn't? It doesn't look like his transfer will work out - and he desperately wants to go. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head? I'd send him postcards all the time to rub it in. Well, actually I wouldn't - I'm not that vindictive. But I can fantasize, can't I?

I'm going to apply.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/25/04 07:52 PM
Right now I'm feeling bummed.

I haven't talked to H since Tuesday. I don't think he's coming home this weekend. Part of me is relieved, but a big part of me is hoping that he walks through the door and tells me that he wants to work on our M.

I miss him. I can't help it. I wonder if he is sad and misses me too? Naw, he's probably happy and livin it up. He's happy, I'm sure, to be able to live the single life again. If he doesn't have an OW, he's probably going to go out to find one tonight.

I was a little angry with him this morning. I woke up with a pretty bad headache and I realized that he took the ENTIRE bottle of Advil with him. That really made me cranky. He could have left me a few. He just doesn't care.

I've been trying to stay occupied. I went out last night a bought a mini-aquarium. I set it up and am letting it run for a day or so. I think tomorrow I'll go out and buy my little fishies.

I've been cleaning like crazy, too.

Yeah, I know, my life is so exciting.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 09/25/04 11:30 PM
I am so sorry you are down, svb, but it is perfectly understandable. He is probably missing you twice as bad since he doesn't have the security of his home. Hopefully, this will wake him up.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/26/04 02:54 AM
Thanks, ML. I hope this wakes him up, too.
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 09/28/04 02:40 PM
Dont worry about me SB... I'm doing fine these days.. not crying, drinking, just moving on with my life. It's so much easier to deal with right now. I'm cool calm and collected. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Anyways I'm on the "Harudah Plan" which is more a personality Plan hehe, but I'll be alright. I'm just a little sadden by the fact your H hasn't even tried to contact you with the plan B....he shouldn't but they do usually fight.. but oh well.. its good not to have any expectations from. It might seem hard right now, but from what other plan Bers told me, it gets easier and eventually you'll feel better.

Lots of hugs*
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/28/04 10:58 PM
Hi Harudah,

I am glad you are doing fine. How does your H feel about your new plan? Doesn't it hurt you/him to still be living together?

Well, I have a dilemma. I just got home from work and my H left me a message. He called at 12:30pm. He said that he's coming home this Saturday to pick up some clothes and wash some clothes. He said around 6:30 - 7pm. He said he'd be home around 2 hours if I want to go somewhere. I am assuming that he meant for me to go somewhere by myself while he is there. However, I am dying to call him back.

I really want to ask him where he is on all of this. But I guess it is pretty apparent that he doesn't want to talk about the relationship, otherwise he'd say something.

I still go back and forth in my mind from hating him to wanting him back desperately.

Oh, can I call him pretty please?
I guess only if I want to lose my self-respect.
But I ache inside so bad right now. I feel like a big part of me is missing!
This is so hard.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 09/28/04 11:37 PM
Well, I have a dilemma. I just got home from work and my H left me a message. He called at 12:30pm. He said that he's coming home this Saturday to pick up some clothes and wash some clothes. He said around 6:30 - 7pm. He said he'd be home around 2 hours if I want to go somewhere. I am assuming that he meant for me to go somewhere by myself while he is there. However, I am dying to call him back.

From what he said, he is fine with your NC rule. If he is fine with it, it either means that he is a kind, sensitive person who really cares about your feelings, or it means he is fine with it because it is over for him, and there is no use pretending.

Now, if he was kind and sensitive, you wouldn't be doing plan B. So, I think that means HE THINKS he is finished.


I really want to ask him where he is on all of this. But I guess it is pretty apparent that he doesn't want to talk about the relationship, otherwise he'd say something.

You told him you don't want to talk to him unless he want's to work on things, and he isn't trying to talk to you. I think it is pretty apparent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Now, that doesn't mean it is finished - you are just beginning this. I think it does mean you were right about his feelings, and where he was going every other week to put miles on the car.

I still go back and forth in my mind from hating him to wanting him back desperately.

He has hurt you deeply, so you have hate feelings. You still love him, and you are still loyal to him, or to who he was. This is really good, (in one way, but another way it sucks) becuase it tells us what kind of a person you are. We already knew, from reading all these months, but it confirms that you want to save your marriage if you possibly can. I count that as good. I think this is normal for where you are............and I realize it really hurts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh, can I call him pretty please?

You can do anything you want - but you are doing plan B for a reason. I remember you said you were calm, and you knew that doing what you had been doing (Plan A, and trying to get him to talk) were not working. I am not even going to give you advice, because you don't need it. Just examine your deepest feelings, and you will know what to do.


I guess only if I want to lose my self-respect.
But I ache inside so bad right now. I feel like a big part of me is missing!


A big part of you is missing. When we marry, we give up something of ourselves to our sweetheart. We trust them to take care of it for us, to add to it, to help our love and friendship grow. When they betray us, it seems like they break part of who we are. Healing of emotional wounds can take longer than healing of physical ones. You have deep and serious wounds, but not mortal ones. You can, and I believe will recover. I realize it's the getting from here to there that seems impossible, but you believe it too, I know you do.

This is so hard.

We can't help as much as we would like, or as much as you need, but we do what we can. Please know we care about you, and are praying for you.

Remember that it isn't over yet. I won't pretend that this will be easy, or that it can be fun, because it won't be. It is necessarry, and it is your best hope. We're with you.

SS

Also remember, we are more a support group than anything. We are not pro's, and you could always benefit from calling the Harleys for counseling.

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: Orchid Re: I asked H to leave - 09/29/04 12:31 AM
Let him know that his timeframe is not going to work for you. Tell him to give you a list so you can set his stuff on the porch. As for the washer and dryer, since you are going to be home at that time, he can make other arrangements.

I believe it is time for the Op to step to the plate and wash his clothes or meet the real needs.

JMHO,
L.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/29/04 01:42 AM
I don't know what happened. I posted a reply, but my computer froze and it disappeared. That's never happened to me before.

SS and Orchid, thanks for the replies. I was hoping/needing to get some replies tonight.

I haven't called H. When I heard his message, I just felt such disappointment and desperation and panic that I was willing to throw everything I had done up to now out the window and call him. I haven't had such intense feelings for a while now (still on ADs). I can't remember the last time I cried. Even now, I want to cry, but I can't.

SS, you say that you think that in his mind HE THINKS he's done. Yeah, that's what I think, too, and it's what I was afraid of. He definitely doesn't want me or love me. Talk about killing your self-esteem.

Orchid, I wish I could say those things to him, but I can't. At least not yet, anyway. I might get to that point sometime, though. We never really established the OP thing. I didn't even mention it in my plan B letter.

I have these questions that keep running through my head. Maybe my H was considering working on our M, but my plan B letter convinced him not to? Maybe it convinced him that it would be better for us to lead separate lives? Maybe he didn't understand what I meant in the letter? I don't know, I thought it was pretty clear.

Well, I could ramble on forever.

Thanks again for being there for me. You guys really do help me to stay on the right track.

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 09/30/04 09:13 AM
girl! How are you? I know the pressure is on, but you have to keep up what you already made or all this would be for nothing. Has he ever said anything after what you told him? Did he ever say that he wish to have a better marriage with you? NO...he didn't... So I don't think he had that intention. See you could have let it just be the way it was with you suffering, wanting him all the time near, wanting his love, or you can try to make a good relationship...which by his actions right now is not showing any will to have this. He wanted to hold on to something that he was comfortable with. I know what its like to live an unhappy man... when the time to let go ...its time.

You have so much strenght so far to have done what you did because it was first instinct what really felt right because you couldn't anymore!!!! We all have our limits.. we cannot love our spouse unconditionally we need the two to tangle stuff.. so I said do not doubt your decision, I think you did the right thing. and that way you can move on with your life. You have more guts than I do. hehehe probably cuz my H is whinner and he cries when I want to pack up.. Your H is a hardass!!! so see what happends.. either when he comes back to you...you''ll be in a good marriage or you can have the strenght to move on...

Don't worry so much... do what I do.. I meditate when things start to get too confusing for me.. get my G1 everyday...... and that so important to me now.

Big HUGS from Brussels*******
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 09/30/04 10:19 AM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by svb1:
<strong>

I have these questions that keep running through my head. Maybe my H was considering working on our M, but my plan B letter convinced him not to?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">svb, if he was planning on working on your marriage, then your Plan B letter simply opened the door for that. It invited him home and gave him a clear path back. So don't scare yourself with what-if's, he knows exactly what he has to do. Now its up to you to demonstrate that you mean it by sticking to your word in the letter.

svb, the only leverage you have in this entire situation is your adherence to Plan B. Because it is the one thing that might motivate him if it is possible to motivate him. If you contact him and ask him all the questions you want to ask him, then you will have tossed away the only tool that you have in your arsenal.

I would agree with Orchid that he can do his laundry elsewhere. He has decided to exit the marriage so he will have to find a new place to do his laundry. I would leave him a polite voice mail telling him that you will leave his clothes for him on the porch but that you would appreciate it if he would find a laundromat.

I think you are doing great, svb, just remember that Plan B is not supposed to be easy, but it does get much easier as time goes on. Keep coming here and talking to us when it gets tough.
Posted By: weaver Re: I asked H to leave - 09/30/04 10:39 AM
I just got home from work and my H left me a message.


I rec'd a message about three weeks after I started my own NC with my ex fiance and it threw me into such a state of dispair that I turned off the answering machine. The only time I turned it on was when my DD was at her dad's in case of emergency. You might want to do this for awhile until you know that you can handle hearing his messages.

After about six weeks he started writing letters, which were easier for me to handle.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 09/30/04 03:15 PM
Thanks, guys.

I really need to be beaten over the head with this plan B stuff - over and over again.

I know it's the right thing to do, but then these doubts keep creeping into my mind. (sorry ML- here comes another what-if. I can't help it!) My current one is ... maybe it would have been enough for my H to be away during the week and then come home for the weekends? Maybe it would have been enough time for him during the weeks to miss me and think about our relationship. I could have kept up plan A really well over the weekends. He HAD been wanting to spend time with me (dinner, cuddling, etc.) I could have made sure that he would come home to a perfectly kept place and we would have a blast. Then he would REALLY look forward to coming home and being with me.

However, now that I've sent the letter, it's too late. I don't think I can go back on my plan now.

Harudah, you made the comment, "probably cuz my H is whiner and he cries when I want to pack up.. " I think this is because your H still does really love you. I think you still have a chance. But if you have lost your love for him and want to move on without him, that's your decision and I totally understand it. In my case, my H just doesn't care about me anymore. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

ML, regarding his laundry, I don't mind letting him do it this time. I think his main purpose for coming home is to pick up more clothes. I think I can let him do this and then I don't think he will be back. They do have washers and dryers at the hotel. I plan to not be home when he comes over.

I am wondering a little bit about how I should prepare for his visit - even though I won't be there. I guess I will make sure that the place is spotless. He will definitely see my new little aquarium and fish. Should I "accidentally" leave the job postings I've applied for on our desk? And other clues that my life is continuing without him? Just wondering. Or should I just leave him wondering what I am doing? I just don't want him to have the impression that I am depressed and moping around without him. A clean house and new aquarium might be enough.

Weaver, I think I might shut off my answering machine for a while. I kind of doubt he will call me anymore anyway. At least for a while.

Please feel free to remind me again and again and again to stick with plan B. I am struggling.

I am going to a baseball game with some friends tonight, though!
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/03/04 01:32 AM
OK, I am feeling a little sick and shaky right now.

I just got home -- just as my husband was in the car and getting ready to go. I wasn't sure if I should have just turned the car around and left. I didn't. I parked and got out of the car and walked past him (he was about 50 ft away - I'm sure he saw me) in the parking lot to our townhouse. I didn't even look his way. After I walked past him, he pulled out and left.

It's all over folks. I don't think there's going to be any reconciliation here.

... and one of my goldfish died today. Now you know why we never had kids!

BTW, I did have our house spotless. I didn't leave out any hints that I'm looking for a job or planning on moving on. Also, we got our new credit cards in the mail today. Our old ones were about to expire. I took mine and left his on the desk, along with some of his mail. He took the mail, but left the credit card.

I feel awful.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/03/04 01:52 AM
ok, svb, just calm down, you will be fine. He probably feels much worse than you. I would wager that he is wondering what in the hell he has done about now. At least you have a home, he doesn't. I know this is hard, but it is intended to do 2 things: enable you to detach from him and hence the emotional pain and [possibly] motivate him to work on his marriage.

See, this is one of the main reasons that the Harleys recommend no contact in Plan B, it is just so hard to see the WS again.

svb, don't torture yourself by imagining the absolute worst. You don't know what he is thinking and he very likely could be just as sad as you. Hang in there, ok?
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/03/04 02:17 AM
Thanks, ML.

I'm glad you're here tonight.

I'm feeling a little better now.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/03/04 02:19 AM
I'm so sorry, svb, I know how hard this is for you.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/03/04 02:57 PM
It's hard not to play the "what if" game.

I review again in my mind all that you posted about him, and what he said, and did.

I see no signs that he was anything but self serving, self absorbed, and self centered.

You correct me, but it looks like he was with you because it suited him, and when it no longer suited him, he planned to leave.

Now, when you read this, it will be hard to take emotionally, but bear with me.

I am struggeling with writing this - because I want you to understand that we can't always know these things about people - they can hide parts of themselves away, and it can be years finding out all about them. I hear your doubts, and I think I understand, but as has been said, your plan B letter is an invitation for him to come back and work on things, and he has not taken you up on it.

We feel your first priority is to protect yourself from further harm. I saw the range of emotions you went through early on. It was pure he$$ for you. It is not healthy, it is not necessarry. For recovery to take place, there needs to be two willing to work on it. You have always been willing. You know this is true. You are willing now, but we have seen NO SIGNS AT ALL that he is wiling. So, "what if" is a futile exercise until we see a sign that he has changed how he has treated you for many, many months.

We haven't even seen words that he wants to make this work, let alone actions.

Now, please don't try to second guess your decision. You were a long time gathering facts, going over all the information you had, and making this decision. Do you really think you were that far off, or do you think the doubts you have may be partly from all the times he tried to argue you out of the truth? You are used to him changing reality for you. Please don't let him do it even now, when he is away from you.

I think you can trust your feelings, and your judgement.

Remember, there are people that care about you. It's probably time to start casting out the fear, and trusting YOURSELF now. You are trustworthy - do you realize this? Do you believe it?

It is time to have more selfrespect. You are respectable - do you realize that? Do you believe it?

We need to love ourselves. You are lovable - I hope you know that, and I hope you show you belive it by being able to love yourself, even if he does not.

This will be difficult in more ways than one. There is a lot to think about. Growing doesn't always mean learning to accept things about others. It also means learning about ourselves. I believe you have a lot to learn about yourself. I believe what you will learn is that you are a far better, more capable, more lovable person than he wanted you to know.

Does this help?

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/04/04 07:03 PM
SS,

Have you been talking to my mother?

My mother says this exactly, "he was with you because it suited him, and when it no longer suited him, he planned to leave." She even tells me that she doesn't think that he ever really loved me.

So, I guess I could say that you are very correct. I can see it myself, though I don't really want to believe it. It's really difficult to believe that my H could do this to me. He was my first and only love. Now in the end, I realize that he never really loved me -or loved me liked I loved him. How can I trust anybody again?

I will be sticking to plan B. Though it was tough on Saturday, it really is getting easier as the days go by.

As for being trustworthy, respectable, and lovable, I know deep down that I am, but it's tough right now - I feel so rejected. But I am working on it.

I also have a question for you. I take my vows seriously. I don't really want to end my M, I want to make it better. I think that I've done everything that I can up until this point, but if my H is done, he is done. I know I can be released from my vows based on infidelity. But in my case, though the signs are there, I don't know for sure. I know, ultimately, that God knows the truth, but how do I let go and move on and be at peace? I guess it probably makes no sense in even asking this question.

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/04/04 07:41 PM
No, I haven't been talking to your mother, but if you will give me her nunmber, I'll call her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I bet with a little more information, the two of us could really gang up on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kidding aside,
I realize this may very well be the most difficult thing you do in your life. I don't discount your feelings at all, but I want you to realize who you really are, and it's not the picture your H painted when you were cold.

SVB, are you a Christian? Do you believe in God, and can I use come Christian examples with you?

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/04/04 07:56 PM
Hi SS,
I am and please do. I edited my last post with a question for you, too.

BTW, trust me, if you call my mom, she will give you an EARFUL of information. She gets RILED UP pretty easily on this subject and will just go on and on. I don't know if you'd be up for that!

thanks

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/04/04 08:19 PM
I guess it probably makes no sense in even asking this question.

Oh, SVB, I think I hear echo's of your H's influence in your life. This may take a while, but lets work on you believing in yourself. I have great faith in you.

I believe the question is a very good one for a person who has a conscience.

I know what I want to say, but It will take me a while to make it into words.

In the short term, please know that you are a daughter of God, and that he sent you here to succeed. If this is true, then he knows you, and loves you, and you should feel it as you read this.

God be with you.

SS

later edit:
I'll try to get back to you within a few days. Perhpas sooner, but sometimes it's hard to put the words down in the little bit of time I have.

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/05/04 02:22 AM
I have another update. I got home from work today and found that my H left me another message on the answering machine!

He said that he forgot some pants. ?? He said that since I have class tonight it would probably be ok for him to come home. Then he ended the message with, "so, what's the name of your little fish?"

Well, I left for class and all I did was put a post-it note on the little aquarium saying, "Hi, my name is Lenny." (I named him Lenny after the vegetarian shark in Shark Tale.)

Needless to say, I had a pretty fierce workout tonight in my fitness and wellness class. It did me good.

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/07/04 09:40 PM
It's good that you still have feelings for him. You realize it has to be that way for a while - right?

Sometimes with emergancies at work, I can't post much. Just had two pretty intense 15 hour days - I am not staying away on purpose.

Here is a thread that you may find interresting.

Boundaries

I read what you said about your mom, I suspect you two are a lot alike ???

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 03:53 PM
It's good that you still have feelings for him. You realize that it has to be that way for a while - right?

Actually, no. I don't understand this. What do you mean? As a matter of fact, I think I'm losing my feelings for him pretty quickly. It's pretty scary. I wasn't expecting this.

Sometimes with emergancies at work, I can't post much. Just had to pretty intense 15 hour days - I am not staying away on purpose.

That's OK ... sniff .. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ... sniff... I understand. No, really, I do. At least today is Friday. Hopefully you can relax this weekend.

I read the thread on boundaries. It is excellent. It really applies to my situation. I have also been reading the "who is afraid of plan B" thread with interest. I might post something on there.

I read what you said about your mom, I suspect you two are a lot alike ???

Hey! What are you trying to say here? That I give an earful of information and get riled up and go on and on and on? .... well, you'd be be right.

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 08:36 PM
I just posted this on the thread, "who is afraid of plan B?" I wanted to post this here, too, since this is sort of my plan B journal.

"I was afraid of plan B. I was mainly afraid that I would lose my H forever.

Now that I have been in plan B for almost three weeks, I am not really afraid of this anymore. I have come to realize that I can live without my H. Although I really missed him at first, I am doing things for myself and I am enjoying my freedom.

Currently, all I can do is remember the negatives of our M. At this point, I don’t know why I’ve been trying to save my M.

Here are the facts:
- My H came to this country on a student visa to finish his degree in the States. He never finished his degree, but we got married and he is now a US citizen.
- I have always been the main breadwinner and I NEVER cared how much he earned as long as he either worked or studied.
- I have always done most of the household duties – handling our finances, doing all of the shopping, and most of the cooking and cleaning.
- I went back to school (part-time while working full-time) and just got my MBA.

Despite all of this, according to him, I am “lazy,” I “lack common sense,” and best of all, I am “worthless as a human being.” (I swear he told me that once.) Nothing is ever good enough, clean enough, fast enough, etc. and I am always wrong. It IS clear to me that he is insecure, though he acts as if he is perfect, and tries to bring me down to make himself feel better. I don’t know if he consciously realizes this, though.

On top of this, I have to deal now with his lies, deceit, and new secret personal life. He tells his family that he is unhappy in his M and has been for a long time and longs to be “free,” but he doesn’t have the guts to tell me this to my face. He wants to “go back in time” and “start his life over” and be single again – going out to night clubs every weekend.

My H is about to be promoted to a position at work that will pay him at least what I make, if not more. I have always told him that I am proud of him. But now I find it very coincidental that, faced with his new opportunities, he wants to be free. He has been throwing me bones and keeping me hanging on until he finds out what is going on at work. Then he was going to tell me how he feels about our M and leave. But in the meantime, I am good enough to keep around so that he can continue to enjoy his current lifestyle. We took two nice trips this year. We’ve sent money to his family. He’s convinced me during this past year to use my bonus at work to pay off his car. He’s gotten $2000 worth of dental work done that our insurance wouldn’t cover - dental work that was not urgent. It could have waited a year or two. I am realizing now that he has been intentionally planning this all along. And he’s been sneaking around on the side. This was all during my plan A.

How could I have been so stupid all along? I am embarrassed to even be admitting all of this. Love really is blind. I feel used and stupid. Am I that horrible to deserve all of this?
So, to end this all, I have to say that, in my case, fear of plan B would have continued to subject me to the abuse.

At this point I am beginning to heal. I don’t know if I’ll ever heal fully, but I’m going to try."

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 08:47 PM
I have to keep going with my vent.

Despite everything, I will still feel guilty and like a failure if my M ends.

Marriages are all about commitment. They are supposed to last "through good times and bad times, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." My parents were married for 37 years before my father died last year. He suffered with Parkinson's disease for the last 25 years of his life. He stayed at home until his death. As tough as it was, my mother took care of him until the very end. She would not send him to a nursing home. To me, that is what commitment and M are all about.

How can I give up, even though my M, for all practical purposes, appears to be over? Why can't my H feel the same way about commitment and M?

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 10:14 PM
Wow.....................

I was just getting ready to post a little bit relating to some of your earlier comments.

You have a whole bunch of anger - but you are just now finding out about it.

You kept it hidden so as to not rock the boat. Now that the boat appears to be SINKING, you find that he made lots of holes it it, and it makes you angry. You didn't even know the boat had a problem.

Please slow down - and quit blaming yourself.

I wish ML would come by, and talk to you. She is really good at this stuff.

For the short term, yes, keep thinking about all this.

BUT, NO, don't be blaming yourself. I will post a little bit more after this, and this is kind of what I wanted to cover right now anyway.

SS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 10:34 PM
svb, you don't have to give up anything right now. You are far from calling this marriage over. It may come to that, but you don't know what will happen.

I think you are seeing things now more clearly that you didn't see before and I am [and have]wondering how committed your H was to your marriage to begin with. Maybe I am reading him wrong, but it is surprising to me that he would so quickly toss this aside on a whim when he is through.

Sadly, you are taking this attitude personally, but it really speaks more about him than it does you. It tells me that he does not place a high value on others, much less on marriage. And you are a very valuable person who deserves to be valued.

Svb, I read your posts every day and think about you often. I think you are doing very well. I don't want you to think that I am not thinking about you if I don't post. I am more of an action-oriented person and have trouble just giving plain moral support. That is why I am so happy that stillseeking is posting to you. He is just fabulous in this department.

Please keep posting, svb, talking about it is so healing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 10:36 PM
Just out of curiosity, what country is your H from?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/08/04 11:04 PM
Hi -
Sometimes they say that plan B brings clarity to your mind.

What do you say to that?

Ok, lets get down to work. And remember, I am one of the people that come here to give support, I am not an expert, and I don't pretend to be one. What you will get is my opinion, but at least the price is reasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's good that you still have feelings for him. You realize that it has to be that way for a while - right?

Actually, no. I don't understand this. What do you mean? As a matter of fact, I think I'm losing my feelings for him pretty quickly. It's pretty scary. I wasn't expecting this.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said this because of the general tone of your posts. Things like this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I left for class and all I did was put a post-it note on the little aquarium saying, "Hi, my name is Lenny." (I named him Lenny after the vegetarian shark in Shark Tale.)

Needless to say, I had a pretty fierce workout tonight in my fitness and wellness class. It did me good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, tell me, do you always leave notes around like that, for people you don't care about? What did you think about durning the workout for it to be fierce? Didn't it hurt? Doesn't it hurt?
Do you often hurt this much about people you don't care about?

I think you are angry now, and you are seeing things you didn't see before, but I think you won't give up on your love for him over night, perhaps never.

I see this as being a good thing. It means you are the kind of person you wanted him to be. It means you are ~ REAL ~ not fake like some people.

Do you understand what I am trying to say?
The bottom line with this is you won't feel good right away. You may know what to do, and your doubts may go away, but it will hurt for a while still.
Usually people are encouraged to hold off making life changing decisions while they have these feelings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Marriages are all about commitment. They are supposed to last "through good times and bad times, in sickness and in health, until death do us part." My parents were married for 37 years before my father died last year. He suffered with Parkinson's disease for the last 25 years of his life. He stayed at home until his death. As tough as it was, my mother took care of him until the very end. She would not send him to a nursing home. To me, that is what commitment and M are all about.

So, my humble opinion is that becasue you have these feelings, because you are loyal, because you tried so hard to make this work, you are the same kind of person as your parents - as your mother. I was half teasing when I said you are a lot like your mother, and I thought you would pick up on that, but I wanted you to get this deeper part too - that you have your mothers commitment, and loyalty. Please understand that you are not the problem if your marriage fails. OK?


..................... Despite all of this, according to him, I am &#8220;lazy,&#8221; I &#8220;lack common sense,&#8221; and best of all, I am &#8220;worthless as a human being.&#8221; (I swear he told me that once.) Nothing is ever good enough, clean enough, fast enough, etc. and I am always wrong. It IS clear to me that he is insecure, though he acts as if he is perfect, and tries to bring me down to make himself feel better. I don&#8217;t know if he consciously realizes this, though.

I don't know if he does either, I do know it has had an effect on you, and believe it will take some time to un-do that also. A lot of this is background for what the things I want you to know and understand. Mostly that is..........that you are not the person he painted the ugly picture of.

If God is your father, as Jesus said he was, then you are a lot like your father, and indeed, you are created in his image. I would say, that unless you have been killing people, robbing banks, and generally being a terror, you can over come any weaknesses you do have, and grow up to be like your dad.

On top of this, I have to deal now with his lies, deceit, and new secret personal life. He tells his family that he is unhappy in his M and has been for a long time and longs to be &#8220;free,&#8221; but he doesn&#8217;t have the guts to tell me this to my face. He wants to &#8220;go back in time&#8221; and &#8220;start his life over&#8221; and be single again &#8211; going out to night clubs every weekend.

This is standard - if you have read here much you know it. You don't have to deal with it (as far as what anyone else thinks) , all you have to do
is be the person you have been all along. Be you, do what is right, go on with your life. I am not discounting your feelings...... that your whole life just came apart, I know you have to deal with that. I mean, you are still you, this wonderful person that tried so hard. You are still in there, under all the rubble. You can come out, wash off, and you can still have a life. You have what it takes, you are a success. If your H failed to measure up, how does that reflect on you?
Christ choose Judas to be one of the 12. Judas could have done well, but he made his own choices. Do you think less of Christ, because of his choice?

Neither does God think less of you. Neither do we or your parents, or does any one that really knows you.

How could I have been so stupid all along? I am embarrassed to even be admitting all of this. Love really is blind. I feel used and stupid. Am I that horrible to deserve all of this?
So, to end this all, I have to say that, in my case, fear of plan B would have continued to subject me to the abuse.


Please don't be embarrassed. As in the example above - you chose someone with potiential. He could have lived up to it - but he decided not to. I don't see how this is your fault. Please explain to me how you were supposed to see into the future, and know what he would do 10 years after you married him?

No, you are not that horrible. I could give examples of how (all over the world) good people are often put into horrible situations, none of which were their fault. I won't because it won't make your pain go way, and besides you already know with your head, it's your heart that cries out right now. - Those feelings I talked about at first.


I have to go, but will continue as time permits.

When you are feeling down, don't hug Lenny, it would make a mess, and hugs don't mean the same thing to a fish anyway.
Do....Remember that there are people in the world that care about you. Do remember who's daughter you are, and that if God is your father, you must be a princess, for he is surely a king.

SS

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/13/04 01:51 AM
ML and SS, I have been thinking a lot about what you have posted - over the weekend and until now. I thank you, as always, for your heartfelt responses.

ML, you said, "you don't have to give up anything right now. You are far from calling this marriage over."

It sure feels over. Nothing in my situation has changed. I have not contacted my H, and he has not contacted me. It's as dark as can be around here. It still confirms to me that he is done. I have read so much about others in plan B, and their spouses can't handle the dark - they don't really want to let go of their H or W, so they try to make contact. It has been 3 weeks already for me in plan B and I don't even get a peep! I don't know, I guess I can never tell what might happen in the future. I might be surprised. There are only 3 weeks left for his current assignment. It's only a matter of time before I find out what he is going to do. He will either come back here, or look for an apartment.

I think you are seeing things now more clearly that you didn't see before and I am (and have) wondering how committed your H was to your marriage to begin with.

I am. I have seen things in bits and pieces before, and had blinders on for a lot of it, but I've NEVER put it all together like I'm doing now. I know I am not perfect and have made mistakes in the past, but this all seems so horrible to me when you put everything he's done together. I don't feel that I look at him the same anymore. I don't have the same respect for him anymore. I think I'm really losing hope. I don't think that he can ever be the same man he was (or I thought he was) any more. I don't know if I want him in my life anymore.

Trust me ML, I know that you are there for me. Your posts give more moral support than you know. And I know what you mean about being action-oriented. I mean, there's not much else I can do at this point! I've done everything I'm supposed to up until plan B. Now I stay dark and just focus on myself! The ball is no longer in my court.

Most of the time, though, I vent. It does feel good. I'm sure I repeat myself over and over again, too. Feel free to smack me with a 2x4 if you think that I need it. There's an action item for you! I really need to smack myself with a 2x4. I'm just torturing myself with the same thoughts 24 hours a day. So most of the time, I don't really expect a response - but it's always nice to get one!

Oh, and you asked where my H is from? He is from Argentina - but he is of European descent (75% German, 25% Italian.) My mother is from Argentina as well. I studied abroad in Argentina during my junior year in college - that's when I met my H.

SS,

Plan B DOES bring clarity to your mind. I am beginning to see the whole picture of my H. I thought I would miss him and remember only the good memories and his good qualities, but I am remembering it ALL.

I AM angry. I'm still angry and I just can't shake it! And I'm not an angry type of person! Will this ever go away? I guess it's like you say, I won't feel good right away.

I know what you mean now about still having feelings for him. When I left that note for him on the aquarium, I guess I was leaving it for my old H. The one that used to care for me. I think maybe I heard a little of my old H in the message that he left me when he asked about the fish. Maybe it was wrong for me to leave the note. I guess I had just a little spark of hope in me in that moment.

I also think I understand what you are saying about not being so horrible and not blaming myself if the M ends. I think he's got some serious issues. (H had serious problems with his father growing up. His father was HORRIBLE to him. I suggested to him that he should go to IC to learn to deal with it, but he says he doesn't need it)He might not be happy in our M now, but I wonder if he will ever be happy. He is going to take all of his issues with him and he is going to find himself in the same situation again at some point. I don't think that he will ever be happy with anyone long term. He is going to eventually find faults with them, too. I'm also pretty sure that not many would put up with him and try as long as I have. He needs to be happy with himself first. I don't know if he will ever get there. I feel sorry for him despite everything. So if you get a chance and don't mind, please say a prayer for H.

As for me, I guess I will be OK in the looooonnng run, no matter what happens.

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 10/14/04 12:47 PM
I spend a lot of time in anger....but that's going against my nature.... it feels like I'm suppose to be angry even when I don't want to be angry...weird huh? Just posted to you... cuz to say...I'm still reading you girl.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/14/04 01:09 PM
Thanks Harudah!

I posted to you on your thread.

<small>[ October 14, 2004, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/18/04 02:39 PM
I did a bad thing last night. I called my H.
I had a couple of financial issues that I needed to talk to him about.

We talked about it and then we chit chatted about his job. He was relatively pleasant. He's done next Tuesday! That's sooner than I thought. Then he'll be back at his old location. I know he was unhappy at his old location.

Here's the kicker. He told me that his friend called him to say that he bought a house in Miami with his girlfriend and they're moving all their belongings next Monday. He asked my H if he wants to come down to Miami with them to help them out. (This is his friend that helped us with our last long distance move) My H would also be able to spend time with this friend and get to know Miami as well. H essentially asked if it was ok (money-wise) for him to go. My H wants to go -- he will have a long weekend before he starts work at his old location the following Monday.

OK, it gets worse. He started saying that he's not sure what the flight would cost. He doesn't have access to the internet. He said his friend's GF might be able to look it up for him --or he might call the airline. I should have said nothing at all, but no. What do I do? I say "I'll look it up for you." !!!!!! I'm sure he expected me to say that - he really knows how to play me. I guess that's why you need to stay dark in plan B! I think I'm much better at plan A.

We didn't talk about our M at all. Neither of us brought it up. I don't know if he plans on returning to live at home, or if he plans on getting an apartment. I am assuming that since he didn't ever contact me to talk about our M as per my plan B letter, he's not interested in working on our M -- he's just moving on. He wants to leave for Miami on the 27th.

He said he'll have to wash clothes and pack up some summer clothes for the trip -- which means that he'll have to come home Tuesday night and Wednesday.

I can feel you guys shaking your heads at me in disapproval!

I've already looked at the rates and I have to call him tomorrow night. I wonder if I should ask him if I should get a ticket for myself as well. (Just to see his reaction.) I am also tempted to ask him what his plans are when he returns from Miami. Work on M or leave?

Part of me understands about him going to Miami -- see his friend, help him out. The other part of me says NO WAY -- he probably is avoiding our situation and he can party in Miami! You would think - with our M in crisis -- if he wanted to work on things, he would rather spend his long weekend with me discussing our M - especially after not seeing me or talking to me for 5-6 weeks.

Either way, he's going to do what he wants to do. I can't stop him. I still have to work on the concept of LETTING GO.

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/18/04 03:22 PM
Here's another comment. The only thing that he asked about ME was, "so, did you feed your fish today?" So I talked a little about the fish. Then, (mistake) I asked him if he liked him. He said "yeah, but there are so many other pretty fish out there, why did you buy a common goldfish?" See, I still can't get anything right.
Or am I just looking at this the wrong way?

Anyway despite all of this, I am trying to do the best that I can for me. I spent the pretty fall day yesterday buying some new flowers to plant up front including a big bright yellow mum. I bought a couple of pumpkins, too. This is all new for me. My H is the one with the green thumb and has always taken care of the flowers and plants. (He's always been disappointed with me about this, too). He'd be shocked to see what I've done.

I've been using Believer as my example in plan B. I liked the image that she described of having her house being clean and smelling sweet. I'm doing the same. I've bought myself fresh flowers to put inside as well. Little by little I'm getting rid of clutter and throwing old things away. (Does everyone clean out their closets in plan B?)

I'm still working on my plans to move back to Chicago at some point.

Overall, bit by bit, I feel like the old me is re-emerging. The me before I was married.

Still, though, I'm having nightmares (about H) about twice a week. Is this normal?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/18/04 08:40 PM
Hi,
I see you have been busy. I think I'll start back a few posts, if that's OK.

I know what you mean now about still having feelings for him. When I left that note for him on the aquarium, I guess I was leaving it for my old H. The one that used to care for me. I think maybe I heard a little of my old H in the message that he left me when he asked about the fish. Maybe it was wrong for me to leave the note. I guess I had just a little spark of hope in me in that moment.

If you read this again, you may see a hint of someone trying to justify what they did. Please understand - you are you, and I don't want to change you, I just try to comment on what I see, and make suggestions. You get to choose what you do - it's OK. You can make your own decisions, and we will support you the best we can.

I don't know if it was wrong, or right to leave the note. I just explained what I thought I saw. I thought I could still see some feelings - and as I said, this is good. I believe it does mean you have the same values as your parents, and that if the choice was yours, your marriage would last just as long or longer. I am glad you had a spark of hope, it seems to agree with what I have been saying.


I also think I understand what you are saying about not being so horrible and not blaming myself if the M ends. I think he's got some serious issues. (H had serious problems with his father growing up. His father was HORRIBLE to him. I suggested to him that he should go to IC to learn to deal with it, but he says he doesn't need it)He might not be happy in our M now, but I wonder if he will ever be happy.

I wonder if he will ever be happy too. It does sound like a cycle of abuse, I am almost glad you never had children. I am glad you are not in the middle of it right now.


He is going to take all of his issues with him and he is going to find himself in the same situation again at some point. I don't think that he will ever be happy with anyone long term. He is going to eventually find faults with them, too. I'm also pretty sure that not many would put up with him and try as long as I have. He needs to be happy with himself first. I don't know if he will ever get there. I feel sorry for him despite everything. So if you get a chance and don't mind, please say a prayer for H.

I think many would have gone out and had an A themselves - because It is very difficult to live with that kind of control - DJ's, independent behavior, and it sounds like AO's too. Did you ever think about getting away from him? You did put up with a lot, I am wondering what your thoughts were through the years. I have prayed for both of you, and will continue to do so.

As for me, I guess I will be OK in the looooonnng run, no matter what happens.
I believe you will be OK in the long run.

What I worry about is the pain, and the hurt in the short run.
How is the short run going?
Still have the anger? Lets see, it doesn't sound like it, from reading below. Any comment?

I did a bad thing last night. I called my H.
I had a couple of financial issues that I needed to talk to him about.


So you called instead of e-mail or some other form of communication that would be less stressful.

It sounds like you needed contact to maintain your hopes?

Why do you say it was a bad thing? I am interested in your thoughts. I understand there is no contact in plan B, and I am sure you are referring to that, but I wonder if you have other reasons for what you said. Have you thought about your motive, and do you understand it?

Was your reason for the call really all about financial issues??

Please note, this is not a confrontational question. I am asking mostly for you to be able to understand your own heart. You are a honest person, I think you can look inside, and know the answers. I suspect you weighted the pros, and cons, and said "what the heck, I think I'll call anyway."

We talked about it and then we chit chatted about his job. He was relatively pleasant. He's done next Tuesday! That's sooner than I thought. Then he'll be back at his old location. I know he was unhappy at his old location..............................................................................................OK, it gets worse. He started saying that he's not sure what the flight would cost. He doesn't have access to the internet. He said his friend's GF might be able to look it up for him --or he might call the airline. I should have said nothing at all, but no. What do I do? I say "I'll look it up for you." !!!!!! I'm sure he expected me to say that - he really knows how to play me. I guess that's why you need to stay dark in plan B! I think I'm much better at plan A.

I think you are better at plan A also, and that is a very big compliment, not a slam. What is the man thinking?

So, you like to please him, and you have worked hard at it, but he never seems to be satisfied.
How do you feel about the contact you had?
What did it do for you, and can you look back and see if it had any effect on him?

We didn't talk about our M at all. Neither of us brought it up. I don't know if he plans on returning to live at home, or if he plans on getting an apartment. I am assuming that since he didn't ever contact me to talk about our M as per my plan B letter, he's not interested in working on our M -- he's just moving on. He wants to leave for Miami on the 27th.

He said he'll have to wash clothes and pack up some summer clothes for the trip -- which means that he'll have to come home Tuesday night and Wednesday.

I can feel you guys shaking your heads at me in disapproval!


So, you are supposed to be perfect? I can't remember reading anywhere that everyone is always perfect in plan B. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I worry about your feelings, because you help him, and deep down you hope he will respond with some love, and possibly he will realize how much you did for him, and want to come back. I still see him as a taker, and I see no sign of anything but him continuing to take all he can get. I don't mean to make you feel bad, but I don't see signs he is changing.

I've already looked at the rates and I have to call him tomorrow night. I wonder if I should ask him if I should get a ticket for myself as well. (Just to see his reaction.) I am also tempted to ask him what his plans are when he returns from Miami. Work on M or leave?

AS far as doing laundry - it's still his home too. Someone said tell him to find another place to do it, but I think you are doing pretty well for the person you are, and for the situation you are in. As this goes on, and as you watch how he reacts, you will get a better feel for who, and what he really is.
It could tell you something if you ask about getting a ticket for you too, but what would it do to you if he said yes, then treated you badly if you were to go?

You understand him better than we do, would he be likely to say yes just for lack of other company?
Other questions come to mind here - think about how he does things -

Part of me understands about him going to Miami -- see his friend, help him out. The other part of me says NO WAY -- he probably is avoiding our situation and he can party in Miami! You would think - with our M in crisis -- if he wanted to work on things, he would rather spend his long weekend with me discussing our M - especially after not seeing me or talking to me for 5-6 weeks.

Yes, I would think that he would want to spend time with you if he had any intention of working things out.

Either way, he's going to do what he wants to do. I can't stop him. I still have to work on the concept of LETTING GO.

You can't fix him. Love can accomplish a lot, but he needs to help if this is going to work.
Please don't be hard on yourself, this goes against everything you believe in. I hope you don't still believe it's your fault. If you have faults, you should continue to work on them, but please don't blame yourself for what HE is doing.

Here's another comment. The only thing that he asked about ME was, "so, did you feed your fish today?" So I talked a little about the fish. Then, (mistake) I asked him if he liked him. He said "yeah, but there are so many other pretty fish out there, why did you buy a common goldfish?" See, I still can't get anything right.
Or am I just looking at this the wrong way?


Some things matter. If you were messy, wouldn't clean up after yourself, always left dirty dishes in the sink, and refused to help, I can see you needing to change. ( And BTW, I know you did most of the work, this is just an example) Lets look at this another way, and see what it looks like to you.

What's your favorite color? Oh, I like blue.
BLUE?? That's crazy, red is a much better color. Blue is stupid. With all the other colors out there to choose, why did you choose blue?

Do you see who has the problem? It's not you, is it.
Notice that the last is a statement, not a question.

Anyway despite all of this, I am trying to do the best that I can for me. I spent the pretty fall day yesterday buying some new flowers to plant up front including a big bright yellow mum. I bought a couple of pumpkins, too. This is all new for me. My H is the one with the green thumb and has always taken care of the flowers and plants. (He's always been disappointed with me about this, too). He'd be shocked to see what I've done.

Is there anything he wasn't disappointed about? Did he ever compliment you on anything?
Did your family notice how he treated you? Does your mother comment on it?

I'm still working on my plans to move back to Chicago at some point.
Home?

Overall, bit by bit, I feel like the old me is re-emerging. The me before I was married.
Good !
Don't be afraid of this. Trust yourself, you are trustworthy.
Be willing to love yourself, you are lovable.

Still, though, I'm having nightmares (about H) about twice a week. Is this normal?

I have never been where you are, and I can't answer that, but - do you think it has to do with your commitment, and your feelings for him?

Nightmares about him, not just dreams. Let me think.

Was he so emotionally abusive that your mind finds ways he can ruin your life even in your sleep?

Nightmares.
Please pray for God to show you want is best - and ask him help you understand what to do.
Here is a poem for you - it's been made into a hymn too, I wish you could hear the music. It seems to fit, I hope it helps.

Where can I turn for peace-
Emma Lou Thayne

Where can I turn for peace?
Where is my solace.
When other sources
cease to make me whole?

When with a wounded heart,
anger, or malice,
I draw myself apart,
Searching my soul.

Where, when my aching grows,
Where, when I languish,
Where, in my need to know,
where can I run?

Where is the quiet hand
to calm my anguish?
Who, who can understand?
He, only One.

He answers privately,
Reaches my reaching.
In my Gethsemane,
Savior and Friend.

Gentle the peace he finds
for my beseeching.
Constant he is and kind,
Love without end.


Trust yourself.

SS

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 10/19/04 07:35 AM
That is one awesome reply stillseeking... if you're not a counselor yet, go get a degree. I hope what stillseeking wrote back to you will help clear your mind SVB.... and Its ok what you did, noone ever really do a clear*-no - mistake Plan B.... but you just continue on with no contact, it will help you in the long run. It's ok for wanting to talk to him, checking, hoping.. (just don't do it often)

How do you feel afterwards? I know you felt bad because MB said you shouldn't but after you talk to him.. how did you feel?

<small>[ October 19, 2004, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Harudah ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 05:03 AM
Hello. I have a big update -- I talked to my H tonight. I'm going to really need your input on our conversation. But I'm going to answer some questions first.

SS, I think Harudah is right. That was a great reply, but you ALWAYS have great replies. You should be a counselor if you are not one already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think many would have gone out and had an A themselves - because It is very difficult to live with that kind of control - DJ's, independent behavior, and it sounds like AO's too. Did you ever think about getting away from him? You did put up with a lot, I am wondering what your thoughts were through the years.

It is difficult to live with that kind of control - and it does include AO's too. I've thought a lot about this. First of all, my H was my first love and serious relationship. Therefore, I can't even compare our relationship to any others, or know what a good relationship should be or feel like. Second of all, it all happened very gradually. In the beginning, I would notice something that would be a controlling type behavior and it would make me uncomfortable, but I would blow it off because I didn't want to rock the boat, I guess (I should have stopped it then, I know -it makes me think of that post on boundaries). Then it would happen more often, or to a higher degree, but I would just get used to it. Before you know it, you do wonder, how did we get to this point? There were moments in time when I thought of leaving, but not seriously (M is supposed to be forever!) I had seen and heard about abusive people, but I never thought he was that bad -- as you see in some cases.

I believe you will be OK in the long run. What I worry about is the pain, and the hurt in the short run. How is the short run going? Still have the anger? Lets see, it doesn't sound like it, from reading below. Any comment?

I have less anger. I guess it comes and goes. I should probably even be angry at him now because he wants to go to Miami, but I'm not! My friend tells me she would be furious. I guess I am just more disappointed than angry right now.

I'm also feeling pretty anxious - despite my AD's AND exercise. Trouble sleeping/eating again. I guess it's from renewed contact.

So you called instead of e-mail or some other form of communication that would be less stressful. It sounds like you needed contact to maintain your hopes? Why do you say it was a bad thing? I am interested in your thoughts. I understand there is no contact in plan B, and I am sure you are referring to that, but I wonder if you have other reasons for what you said. Have you thought about your motive, and do you understand it? Was your reason for the call really all about financial issues??

You've got it exactly right, SS. I said it was a bad thing because there's no contact in plan B. Deep down I guess I did need contact to maintain hopes. The call was for financial reasons, but I didn't really need to call him. I could have gotten around it. But I guess I thought it was a good enough excuse to call him and kind of put out my feelers. I didn't just want to call just to say HI.

How do you feel about the contact you had? What did it do for you, and can you look back and see if it had any effect on him?

To be honest, I'm not sure how I felt after the call. Just as confused as ever, I suppose. He wasn't as distant as I thought he'd be. I wasn't sure if he'd be angry with me, happy to hear from me (not that he would mention it anyway), or just be distant and act as if he didn't care one way or the other and want to just get off the phone. It was almost as if we just picked up where we left off. I'm not sure what effect the call had on him - or our plan B distance. I guess the only feeling I got was that he was relieved that I would look up the flight information for him.

deep down you hope he will respond with some love, and possibly he will realize how much you did for him, and want to come back.

Exactly!

Is there anything he wasn't disappointed about? Did he ever compliment you on anything? Did your family notice how he treated you? Does your mother comment on it?

No, he never compliments me on anything. A compliment to me is a lack of criticism, if that makes any sense. For instance, if I cook and he doesn't say anything (i.e. "you put too much salt in here, you always put too much salt in food") then it's ok.

Yes, my family has noticed how he treats/treated me. My mother and brother both feel that he emotionally abuses me. At this point, they both think that I'd be better off without him. But as my mother told me, "it is all about how much you love him and what you can put up with." I'm sure she would support me whatever I decide. But she also believes that I should "stand up to him," or set boundaries if he comes back.

Thank you for the poem, too, BTW. It does fit very well. I am going to print it out and refer to it now and again when needed.

OK, I need to stop for now because I am WIPED OUT. It's almost 1am as I finish this. I'll post the phone call tomorrow.
Posted By: believer Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 01:32 PM
Cleaning out closets is good in Plan B. Also organizing, rearranging, gardening, exercising. The main thing about Plan B is that it is very quiet while you are waiting it out. There is usually nothing to report.

I was in it for 4 months, and then out of the blue, WH called me at work one day and said he was in the process of moving back in.

Luckily, everyone here told me to stop him, unless there was NC with OW, and a plan to work on our marriage. So I went to court, and kept him out.

He is still with OW, but I am doing just fine. You will too. Just keep on doing what you are doing.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 03:17 PM
I called my H last night to give him flight information and fare for his trip to Miami. I also had to tell him about my car troubles. (I discovered yesterday morning.) It seems that I might have a transmission problem.

I asked him if I should buy a ticket for myself,too. He said, "but it's going to be all work." I said, "relax, I'm not going to go. I know you don't want me to go." I quickly went into something else, but I heard him kind of huff after that comment. Like I said, I just wanted to see what his reaction would be, and I got it.
It was pretty much what I expected.

We talked about the car some more. He said it's time to get rid of it. (the car's almost 9 years old.) He told me to start looking into what I might like -- as long as we can afford the payments. (Note the "we")

Then I got into the good stuff. I asked him about the letter. I said, "well, I guess I can assume that you're not interested in working on our M because you never contacted me?" He got a bit upset and said, "I didn't contact you because you asked me not to." I said, "yeah, until you decided that you wanted to work on the M." He said, "no, you asked me not to. I thought you just wanted to take a break." I said, "then you misunderstood the letter." How could he have misunderstood that? Was it a language thing? I wrote it in English and Spanish is his native language. Don't get me wrong, though, his English is great. Plus, I think of our conversations before he left.

I asked him, "so what does that mean? Do you want to work on our M?" He paused, and said, "yes."

Me: "really?"
H: "yes, I think it's worth it."
Me: "seriously, from your heart, that's what you want?"
H: "that's what I feel."
Me: "I thought of what you said before about you not wanting to live separate lives like we have been. But it was not me living a separate life, it was you. We have to have complete honesty from now on. No lies, no secrets, no separate lives. Without honesty and trust, there is no M."
H: "ok."
H: "but I don't want you to push it." (I figure relationship talks 24x7)
Me: "ok, I know I can go overboard with this. We can take it slowly."
Me: (pushing it already) "so you want to spend the rest of your life with me?"
H: (after a long pause): "I don't know."

Ok, then I let it go. I am assuming that, based on the last comment, he is willing to work on our M, and then he will see how he feels about the long term. He is a man of few words about these things.

I feel very hopeful now, but I don't know if I can fully trust him. Does he really want to work on our M, or is he playing along to come home until he figures out what he'd rather do?

I really need your opinions.

I figure that he can come home and I can monitor how things go. I can use my recorder for the first week or so to see if what he tells me jives with what he tells his family. If it does, I will retire the recorder. If not, and he is just stringing me along some more -- I swear I am packing my bags and going to Chicago (yes, home sweet home). I won't take any more.

The only other concern of mine is the emotional abuse. Will it ever get better? Will I be able to continue to put up with it? Will I be able to set boundaries and stick with them? Though I mentioned MC and IC to him in the past, I didn't mention it last night.

I don't want to lose the old me I've been rediscovering in my plan B. I don't want to lose myself anymore in this relationship.

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: believer Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 03:24 PM
Stay in Plan B, my dear. You need to give it several months.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 03:27 PM
believer,

How did you know he was in contact with OW still before he came home?

H doesn't have a proven OW at this point. Do you think I should let him come home and then monitor his actions? I can't really monitor him w/o him being at home.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 03:31 PM
svb, do you see anything here that is a change from his attitude that has made you so miserable? I see nothing new here. I see no committment to your marriage whatsoever.

I see that he might accept moving back home if you agree to stay off his back. If you can live with things the way they were: non-committment, secrecy, lack of intimacy, etc, then you should proceed.

But why would you settle for that?

But there is absolutely nothing different here and I am very afraid that you are setting yourself up for deep disappointment once your wishful thinking gives way to reality.
Posted By: believer Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 03:38 PM
Listen to Melody. She kept me from making a huge mistake. I would have had WH back home with no changes, still doing like he wanted to do.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/21/04 05:07 AM
Thanks believer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

svb, it comes down to this: your H is indifferent to you and your marriage. You cannot change him in this aspect. So your choice comes down to:

a) letting him move home and watching the indifference up close, breaking your heart every day and living in turmoil

b) stick with Plan B and let him be inidfferent from afar while you learn to live in peace and detach from this dysfunctional situation
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 07:16 PM
Plan B does sound better. mmmmm peace. I do feel more peace.

OK, there are chances that he is not sincere and he will be the same when he comes back. But what if he is sincere? What if he really intends to try when he comes back? How can I not give him a chance? How will I know when it IS time to let him back, if I don't let him back now? I don't know if I'm even strong enough right now to tell him not to come home.

I've still got until November 1 before he is officially back. I might have some more clues about his true state of mind before then. I'm thinking of sending him some stuff to read.

I've really got to think about this.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 07:46 PM
I can think of a third option -

Live apart, and work out the differences, and problems.

I believe if he returns now, it will be back just like it was within a week. He still controls and abuses over the phone, there is no reason to believe he will do better in person.

SVB,
You wondered once about ending the marriage, and for what reasons it could be done.

I have a link to some information that discusses marriage, and also mentions (almost in passing) a little about when ending a marriage would be the best choice.
Link
(The site I linked to was using frames - which I didn't notice. It should work now - loading in the top frame. If not, you can click on item two in the bottom frame.)

You alone can judge if you have been in "a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship which is destructive of a person's dignity as a human being."

It may be that he is honest and wants to make things work. It may be that he isn't ready to make the break yet, and he wants to use you for a while before he leaves.

Lets be honest, we haven't seen any sign of change in his heart, and it has to be there for this to work. Honesty also requires us to note that people can change, and sometimes do change if they have proper stimuli.

You need to let your head rule on this one, not your heart. I know you want so badly to make it work, but you need to exercise care, and you need to protect yourself, because we have no reason to believe he will look out for you.

If you can come up with a plan to give him a chance to change with out endangering yourself, I would vote for it, but his coming home right now doesn't seem to do that for you.

If you put forth a plan and he gets angry, or he says that your plan is the last straw, and he is finished, you know where his heart is, and you can walk away with a clean conscience.

Anyone whose heart is right will want a chance to make things better, and to make things work. If you give him a chance and he refuses, he has made the judgment, and condemned himself. At the very least, he should negotiate the way the plan works, and work with you on it.

I believe you will understand - I trust you can come up with a plan that will let you progress with out falling back in to the hole you have spent so much energy climbing out of.

So, write him another letter. Lay it out for him, the good, and the bad. Tell him what you need - and let him choose which way to go.

Please don't go back to where you were before. If you are going to have a marriage, you need a new building from the foundation up to the roof. The old one has been condemned, and current rules prevent occupation.

One of my main reasons for posting to you is to help you see who you are, and what your relationship to God is. He doesn't want you to live in fear all of your life, he wants you to be happy.

I tell you again to trust yourself. You really are trustworthy. You have inside of you the power to succeed in this, and you need to find it and use it. I know it is difficult, but I believe in you - you need to believe also.

SS

<small>[ October 20, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 08:04 PM
Oh yes,
(I almost forgot, please forgive me)
Thank you both for your kind words. I am not a professional, just one of the many who come here to help, and encourage. I still think SVB1 could benefit from calling the Harleys.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/20/04 08:06 PM
SS,

It says that there is "no active search" in the link. Is there a particular article I should look up?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/21/04 03:18 AM
Think it's fixed.

Now, about you.

Think on things some, and tell us what your heart says, and what your head says.

We give advice. You live your life, and you are the one that makes the choices. Please remember we give advice out of care and concern, but we acknowledge your right to do this as you see best. OK?

No matter what, we'll probably worry though. I don't know if you can do much about that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/21/04 02:37 PM
I wanted to comment on my dreams. These are the two that I had last week.

In the first dream, my H and I were at my mother's house. There was a huge storm and the house was about to be severely flooded. There was an ocean of dark water headed toward the house. (Definitely not reality - house is on a hill with no water anywhere nearby) My mother and I and some strangers were putting sandbags around the house. I went inside to look for my H. He was on the phone in a serious conversation. When I started to walk in the room, he set the phone down on the couch. I heard the person on the phone saying loudly, "is she in the room?" But it was a male?s voice. I said loudly, "YES I'M IN THE ROOM." He hung up the phone. I asked H who that was. He said "nobody." I started to beg him to tell me who it was. I was panicked and crying. I think I was shaking him, too. He just looked at me and laughed and he was shaking his head in disgust with a look on his face like he thought I was pathetic.

In the second dream, he was away at work for a long period of time (like now) and staying in a hotel. I decided to surprise him and visit him on his last day. I met him outside of his room and he didn't want to let me in right away. Finally we went in and he went into the bathroom. I rifled through his room looking for evidence. I found condoms. I asked him about the condoms and he confessed to having someone in the room last night, but it was the only time it ever happened. Somehow later I found that he was lying. He was having an ongoing relationship with someone. I think I caught him on the phone later in the hallway with the OP saying that he's got me fooled.

I wonder if I?m reading too many stories on MB.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/21/04 04:00 PM
My heart is definitely telling me to let H come home and to keep trying.

My head is telling me not to trust him. It is telling me to run .... run all the way to Chicago and start my life over. But to be honest, my head doesn't really want to get involved. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I guess I'm still somewhat in denial.

I'm still thinking and praying about this.

I would like to make a plan and run it by him. I want to get him to start reading some of MB's information. I would like him to fill out the EN questionnaire and to read His Needs Her Needs. I would like to start counseling with the Harleys. I would also like him to start IC.

I guess all I can do is talk to the Harleys myself and lay out the plans to my H. If he rejects it all completely, I will have my answer on what to do.

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/21/04 09:35 PM
Dreams often mirror our hopes, or our fears.

What do you think about your dreams?

I chuckled about reading to many stories on MB, It's funny, but I really don't think that's the problem. For some reason, I don't think you do either.


My heart is definitely telling me to let H come home and to keep trying.

My head is telling me not to trust him. It is telling me to run .... run all the way to Chicago and start my life over. But to be honest, my head doesn't really want to get involved. I guess I'm still somewhat in denial.


If you are going to do this, you need to listen to both. Your head wants to keep you safe. You haven't been emotionally safe for most of your married life. Your heart -
Oh, you know about hearts, they represent the part of life that lets us really live. The dream part of us, the hope part, the love part. You seem to be afraid that if this dream dies, there will never be another to take it's place.

Your head needs to be in on this, becasuse it knows things your heart won't consider on it's own. If you will balance what you do between the two, you have the best chance of making this work, or the best chance for being happy if it does not work.

I'm still thinking and praying about this.
Both are good choices, and will help you a great deal. One of them by it self won't bring success.

I would like to make a plan and run it by him. I want to get him to start reading some of MB's information. I would like him to fill out the EN questionnaire and to read His Needs Her Needs. I would like to start counseling with the Harleys. I would also like him to start IC.

I think you are getting to the "putting him to work" part of things before you even know if he is willing to take the job. I think you need to find out if he is telling the truth about wanting to work on things. I think Calling the Harleys for counseling would help you know what to do, but still give you the best chance of success.

You need to have a rock solid plan, that will let you know you did the best you could, but also protect you from further harm. I think you could get that in one or two sessions. Note that I have never worked with them, but I have been reading on this site for nearly three years (began reading long before I started posting) and I think they are the best help you can get.

I guess all I can do is talk to the Harleys myself and lay out the plans to my H. If he rejects it all completely, I will have my answer on what to do.

Exactly. Please don't promise him anything in the short term. Let your head guide you here.

I have one request as a personal favor. I hope you will do this for me.

I request you read your mother the quote about when D is justified, and ask her if she thinks you are to that point.

I ask it this way because I think I know some things. I think your mother is very fair. I think she wants your marriage to succeed, as much as she wants you to be protected and cared for. I think you trust her to give an honest answer. I think you will listen to her. Not that it is time to walk away, but I want you to know what your options are - and I think she can help you know that.

I know lots of things in that article didn't apply to you, but I hope some of it helped. I hope it did not make you feel guilty - that was not my intent.

Although abuse exists in marriage, it does not exist in the right kind of marriage, and I know it does not exist in the marriage you long for. It should not exist in any marriage and I wish for you to be free of abuse either way this goes.

That's what I am trying to help you bring about. That's why you need to use your head too.

SS

<small>[ October 21, 2004, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 10/21/04 11:01 PM
svb,

Whatever your decision, I hope your let your reason lead instead of your emotions. Your emotions can be very misleading, especially when you are this wounded and vulnerable. Your logic and reason will protect you, your "heart" will lead you astray almost every time because its goal is to satisfy every whim regardless of the long term consequences.

Right now your emotions are wounded and are desperately looking for a salve. Even if its a salve that is really poison just because it eases your pain for the moment.

I know that you miss your H very much right now and would only remind you to proceed cautiously and remember why you are in Plan B in the first place.

You are here because Plan A did not end this emotional impasse in your marriage. Going backwards to Plan A is a little like insanity, doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. Plan A did not end it in the past and it won't end it in the future.

Further, I am afraid that if you do allow him to come home, that you will be right where you were before, except now you will have no leverage with which to work.

I get the sense that he is not interested at all in this marriage, after all, he hasn't lifted a finger to save it. He seems indifferent. And this makes me feel that he will "consider" coming home only for his convenience, not to work on his marriage, *IF* you agree to shut up about it and not annoy him.

This puts you right back to square one except in an even more POWERLESS position because you have forfeited any and all leverage and basically settled for NOTHING.

He is offering nothing, svb. Can you settle for that?

Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.


Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/22/04 04:06 AM
Good Post Mel - but then, yours always are.

SVB, we care a lot about what happens to you, and we worry - you can see it in these posts.

Let us know how you are.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/24/04 07:04 PM
Hello. Here is an update on my situation.

I've talked to my H practically every day since I've re-established contact with him. On Wednesday he called (stated he didn't have much time) to find out what I did about the flight. Did I reserve it? And if so, what are the exact flight numbers and times. He said he had to call his friend who was asking.

Thursday I called him to let him know that the car was REALLY acting up. I took it to our reliable mechanic who told me to take it straight to a transmission shop. H was in a horrible mood when I called. He was eating. He was upset that the shop couldn't give us an immediate quote. I couldn't tell if he was mad at me, mad about the situation, or just cranky in general.

I talked to him again Friday and Saturday. He called Friday morning at work to get an update on the car. Saturday morning he called again to get an update on the car. Then he called me in the afternoon. First he left me a message, because I was outside taking out the garbage and watering the flowers. Then he called me back later (I didn't notice he left me a message) He called to ask me to check and see if I could look online and reserve a car for him in Florida - a Jeep Wrangler, if possible, and he asked me to listen to the message. In the message he asked me to look for our inflatable bed and set it aside for him to take. (I won't see him before he leaves for Florida.) He also asked to me take out the sheets that go with it and wash them and set them aside with the bed.

What bothers me is that throughout this whole week, NOT ONCE has he asked me how I am. How are you? What are you doing? How is work going? How is your class? NADA. The only thing that he told me is that he doesn't want me to walk or to take the bus to go anywhere. If I need to go somewhere, I should call a taxi.

I think you guys are right. Nothing has changed. I don't think he cares about me at all. Everything is all about him. I think I am starting to get angry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> again.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/24/04 07:58 PM
Now in response to your posts,

MelodyLane, SS is right, that was a great reply.

Right now your emotions are wounded and are desperately looking for a salve. Even if its a salve that is really poison just because it eases your pain for the moment.

I think that's what I got when he told me he wants to work on our M. My heart really wanted to believe it. I felt better than I felt in a long time.

You are here because Plan A did not end this emotional impasse in your marriage. Going backwards to Plan A is a little like insanity, doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. Plan A did not end it in the past and it won't end it in the future.

Further, I am afraid that if you do allow him to come home, that you will be right where you were before, except now you will have no leverage with which to work.


I think that if he comes home, and I see that nothing has changed at all, I will be giving up on both plan A and plan B. I will be leaving and not looking back. I am not sure at this point if plan A and plan B can work on this man.

I get the sense that he is not interested at all in this marriage, after all, he hasn't lifted a finger to save it. He seems indifferent. And this makes me feel that he will "consider" coming home only for his convenience, not to work on his marriage, *IF* you agree to shut up about it and not annoy him.

Yeah, this is what I am afraid of. Unfortunately, I haven't really seen much of a change in his attitude since we've started talking again. Our resumed contact so far has only been beneficial to him. I am reserving his flight, car, etc. If I had stayed dark, I could have taken care of the car without his grief being involved. I would also not have had to worry about making his plans (that don't include me), I still would have been worrying only about ME.

SS,

Dreams often mirror our hopes, or our fears.
What do you think about your dreams?


I think my dreams are definitely a mirror of my fears. I think that it is a way for my head to remind me of all of the grief that my H has caused me.

I had another one recently about jellybeans. Yes, jellybeans.

I saw my H eating jellybeans, and I wondered where he got them from. I searched around the house and I found that he had a stash of them that he was purposely hiding from me. We're talking bags of jellybeans stacked about 4 feet high. I further found out that his niece was sending them to him and they both swore that I should not find out about it.

These dreams are all about his lies, secrets, and separate life from me.

I have one request as a personal favor. I hope you will do this for me. I request you read your mother the quote about when D is justified, and ask her if she thinks you are to that point.

I talked to my mother at length about this. I read her the quote. She said, "exactly." She basically said that if I always have to be careful around him - if I have to suppress myself and constantly try to please him and not to get him upset for any reason, then I am not living.

She helped me realize something, too. At one point when my H's niece and nephews were visiting over the holidays, they asked me if I ever get angry (about anything that my H does). My H was at work at the time. I said, "not often." Well, I told my mother about this a long time ago. Boy she remembers EVERYTHING. I think that I used to get angry more towards the beginning of the relationship. But as time went by, I found that every time I would get angry at him, he would turn it around and get triply angry with me. He would make it all about me. He would then be upset (and not speaking to me for weeks sometimes) until I apologize. I think maybe I've been trained not to get angry at him and think that it's my fault. Anyway, that was my realization yesterday.

She gave me another earful, BTW.

She basically said that it comes down to me being happy. She doesn't see that I can be happy with him.

So what am I going to do? First, I am going to call the Harleys tomorrow and make an appointment, hopefully for this week.

I am still leaning towards letting him come home next Monday (Nov 1). If things don't work out as I hope, I will leave.

<small>[ October 24, 2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: believer Re: I asked H to leave - 10/24/04 08:17 PM
svb -

Sometimes the people here cannot save us from ourselves. I was in denial and grasping at straws. Mel and others kept me from taking my WH back, and I am so thankful.

If a WS is serious about coming back, they are going to put a lot of effort into it. Your WH and mine just are not that interested.

If you take him back, you are not treating yourself like you deserve to be treated.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/24/04 09:18 PM
Believer,

You're right. My H isn't putting any effort into us at all.

You know, I just got off the computer recently, and he called. He said, "somebody's been on the computer all day."

Why did he call me all day? To see #1 if I found and washed the sheets yet. And #2 if I've found out about the rental car. If I can't get a Jeep Wrangler, he wants a Mustang convertible. Yeah, it sounds like he's going to work really hard this weekend helping his friend move(the reason he said that I shouldn't go).

All he's got on his mind is himself.

BTW, believer, you have been my inspiration in plan B. (well, up until I contacted my H anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I'm still trying to keep busy, though.
Posted By: believer Re: I asked H to leave - 10/24/04 09:27 PM
You need to hold out for what you need. Your WH is just like mine, doesn't care enough. I have been going through this for a long time.
Finally figured out that I will be just fine without my WH.
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 10/25/04 09:50 AM
Ami oh.. le monde est ma maison, et le bonheur ma loi.. danse avec moi... (this is a really cool song, with African beats...) it cheers me up.

SVB? You know what your heart and your mind said, and sometimes we might not be making the correct choice and wants to releive our hearts... It's always easier to please the heart. I out all people should know this. I've chosen over and over and never do what my mind wants to do. Sometimes I fight it so much, I just shut my brain up. I actually wished my husband would be like yours so much that way I could easily let my brain make the decision. He is obviously not taking care at all of what he needs to. You're still taking care of him and he is DEMANDING it!
You want to know what I did this weekend? I thought I would already be in Florida, but I am not. Yeah, I'm one of many idiots that fall into the trap of yearning to please the mind and letting the heart decide. And I just end up confused! Friday H told me we wouldn't go to his parent's house, and we would stay home.. he came home early on friday and told me we should go for a walk. We didnt'talk about relationships...and it was surprising to be asked for a walk... I was like "okay" I went with him, we talked...went to the tennis courts and watched some players... nice.. then went home... We had dinner, then he kept playing thsi song by Jacques Brel, "Ne me quitte pas, il faut tout oublier" I have the English translation.. all dinner he kept playing over and over over over again.. And H hates when I play a song repeatly "Don't leave me, you have to forgive and forget" And then he downloaded the English Version as if I didn't understand HA HA..

Then we sat around reading the history of Jacques Brel...Then we watched a movie. And went to bed... He has been so pleasant..and in the morning he asked if I wanted to go shopping... ROFLMAO... HE HATES SHOPPING!!! So spent the rest of the day shopping around and eating chinese candies n my teeth was all black..funny as hell. We came home so tired... I didn't even cook dinner. He sat around the whole night after talking to one of my friends from USA and I fell asleep on the couch. He woke me up to come to bed, and I found him eating again hehehe....then we started chatting about statistics, polls and the election until we fell asleep..
Sunday, I was awoken with kisses and him telling me that I am sleeping a lot and if he should call the doctor. Anyways we spent a good day until we started to talk about the apartheid in south Africa.. haha yes we have heated discussions, but he's my best friend and even when we have those things it blows out in 5 minutes.. we all say what we have to say..some personal attacks, but its just prove what we say.. anyways...He wanted forever to have dreadlocks, so we bought extensions on saturday when we went shopping, so we spent like 4 hours, braiding and locking hair...

Then my pain started, and I didn't get time to make dinner.. so I said.. maybe we should pick up fries or pizza... then he said.. "Get dressed!" Ok we got dressed... We went to this really nice restaurant...and the minute we walked in.. everyone look at us because.. ok white guy with dreadlocks and black girl with blonde hair.. people never fail to notice us.. It's kinda fun to get all that attention and see people's faces... we're excentric together hehe..

Anyways we had a great time...and in the care he kept playing our songs.. "Everyday" Jamiroquai and hold my hand...

So I didn't have any ill-feelings all weekend, was kinda annoying to not hate him.

My whole point is that your H shows no affection towards you, he doesn't show any details, any plans, like he only think abotu himself and does NOTHING to keep you......I see really absolutely NO reason for you to accept him back inside the house or doing all this work for him. It seems like he gives you purpose, buy a dog <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> They are fun... See things even fall right he got to leave and give you space the hardest thing is the initial separation, You broke plan B, everyone has, but you can go dark and RESEND that letter if he didn't read it correctly.

I know the what ifs...but I bet in 2 weeks he would be back home, he can't help being a jerk, just like I can't help at times to go crazy, but I come back to earth after, but he is using you as a dish rag..... He should at least bring flowers to his maid and travel agent..
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/25/04 01:57 PM
double post

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/25/04 02:11 PM
Hi Harudah,

It sounds like you had a great weekend! You deserve all of that attention. I bet it felt great. Do you still think that your H is contacting his OW? Are you still thinking about plan B?

We went to this really nice restaurant...and the minute we walked in.. everyone look at us because.. ok white guy with dreadlocks and black girl with blonde hair.. people never fail to notice us.. It's kinda fun to get all that attention and see people's faces... we're excentric together hehe..

That just cracked me up! How hilarious! My H and I draw some attention, too. We're both 6 feet tall. Me: blond hair, blue eyes, H: dark hair, dark eyes. We speak Spanish everywhere we go. People look at us and have no clue what we're speaking. They never expect it to be Spanish. (as we've been told) Once we were riding in a train in Germany. I heard Americans behind us kind of whispering, "Where are they from?" The other said, "I don't know, I think they might be French." I just love people's reactions to us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I see really absolutely NO reason for you to accept him back inside the house or doing all this work for him. It seems like he gives you purpose, buy a dog They are fun...

He he, I'd buy a dog, I love dogs. Besides being fun, they are always happy to see you, and give you unconditional love, too. But we're not allowed to have them where I live. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
That's why I bought a fish. He's pretty loveable as far as fish go. He always comes up to my finger when I put it up to the tank. I think I'm turning out to be an ok fish mom, too (despite losing one fish). He's growing pretty quickly. I'm afraid he's going to outgrow his tank pretty soon. I gotta stop feeding him. (just kidding, you know)

But seriously, though, as time goes by my head is getting more involved. I thought that after a while I would get a clue as to where his heart really is. I'm finding out sooner than I thought. Like I said before, though, I might not even go back to plan B. I'm feeling more justified in just leaving.

Which reminds me, I have to call the Harleys to make an appointment.

I'll let you know how things go.

<small>[ October 25, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/27/04 05:57 AM
Greetings, and Salutations !

I am wondering (this morning) what you are doing with all your positive energy? I don't think you are a person that can mope non stop. So, what have you been doing?

While you are thinking - I hope you don't mind if I comment on some of the things you said earlier.

On your dream -
I saw my H eating jellybeans, and I wondered where he got them from. I searched around the house and I found that he had a stash of them that he was purposely hiding from me. We're talking bags of jellybeans stacked about 4 feet high. I further found out that his niece was sending them to him and they both swore that I should not find out about it.

These dreams are all about his lies, secrets, and separate life from me.


It looks like he is hoarding his love, everything - and giving you nothing. It's tough to live with out love in marriage. That's why we get married, to have more of it.



I talked to my mother at length about this. I read her the quote. She said, "exactly." She basically said that if I always have to be careful around him - if I have to suppress myself and constantly try to please him and not to get him upset for any reason, then I am not living.

She helped me realize something, too. At one point when my H's niece and nephews were visiting over the holidays, they asked me if I ever get angry (about anything that my H does). My H was at work at the time. I said, "not often." Well, I told my mother about this a long time ago. Boy she remembers EVERYTHING. I think that I used to get angry more towards the beginning of the relationship. But as time went by, I found that every time I would get angry at him, he would turn it around and get triply angry with me. He would make it all about me. He would then be upset (and not speaking to me for weeks sometimes) until I apologize. I think maybe I've been trained not to get angry at him and think that it's my fault. Anyway, that was my realization yesterday.


Thank you for talking to her about it. You already know what is happening, but she put it into words for you. She thinks allot like you do, and you understand her reasoning. You also know she would never hurt you on purpose. I agree you have not been living. You have been existing. God never intended for marriage to do that to us. It is supposed to add life, not drain it out of us.

It looks like you are right on about your training. He still does it to you even now. I would like to see you break free of that conditioning. This is why you need your head to run things this time. Your heart provides the motivation, and your head can get the job done.

Lets get something straight right now. You are not stupid. Look at all you have accomplished outside of this relationship. You are a smart gal, and you need to understand that you do have what it takes to make this work, if it can work at all. That depends on him exercising his freedom of choice in the right manner. He can choose to respond however he wishes, and we can't change that part of things. This is why I have encouraged you to call the Harleys for counseling. If they don't think they are the best resource for your case, they will refer you to someone that is.

This is not a simple case of needs not being met, and someone having an A - he is going to have to be reprogrammed to show care and protection, and you are going to have to re train yourself to do what is right, and let him be angry if he chooses to be. He has never responded to you being nice to him, (except to take more) so it will take some really firm boundaries. I believe if this is going to work, you are going to have to learn how to be really firm. Of course, you can leave at any time, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. From reading your responses, you are trying to decide if it is worth it to even try.


She gave me another earful, BTW. She basically said that it comes down to me being happy.

She doesn't see that I can be happy with him.

So what am I going to do? First, I am going to call the Harleys tomorrow and make an appointment, hopefully for this week.



You can't be happy with him unless some big changes are made. BIG changes. There are things you can do right now - to test the waters so to speak.

I am still leaning towards letting him come home next Monday (Nov. 1). If things don't work out as I hope, I will leave.

Call the Harleys TODAY. You need a plan, and you need time to begin before he comes back. If you read this too late to call today, please do it first thing tomorrow.

What you can do is start to be the person you are - and not let him batter you for being that person.

"What did you get a gold fish for, they are such a plain fish."
"I got a goldfish because that's what I wanted. You are going to see a lot of that in the future - me doing what I want, so get used to it."

"Will you find the best price, and book a flight for me? "
No, I am busy, and I don't have time, but you can call *** *** **** and they will help you, or you can look up travel agents in the yellow pages."


"I can't believe you are cold, it's not that cold out tonight"
"It's a known fact that people are different. If I feel cold, then I feel cold. I have a problem with the way you treat me when I voice my feelings about being cold. If you don't start treating me with love and respect, I will find someone that will. Perhaps you ought to think about that."

You have lots of past memories to draw from. You can think up things to say in most cases, and I suggest you start being different. I suspect when you met, you had an opinion - it's time to get it back. You are valuable in your own right. No matter what he says, you have value - your thoughts have value, your feelings have value. He can't devalue you without your consent, please don't give it to him.

If he gets angry, tell him you have no desire to talk to a mean, angry person, and that you will be glad to speak to him when he can be civil, then just leave the room.

I should add, that if you feel he is a danger to you, then you ought to get out now. You should only do this if you feel safe in doing it - if not, please book a flight to Chicago.

Believer, You're right. My H isn't putting any effort into us at all.

You know, I just got off the computer recently, and he called. He said, "somebody's been on the computer all day.

"Why did he call me all day? To see #1 if I found and washed the sheets yet. And #2 if I've found out about the rental car. If I can't get a Jeep Wrangler, he wants a Mustang convertible. Yeah, it sounds like he's going to work really hard this weekend helping his friend move (the reason he said that I shouldn't go).

All he's got on his mind is himself.



"somebody's been on the computer all day."
"yes, somebody has. It might be news to you, but I have a life too. I don't' sit around waiting for you to call and ask me to do things for you. If you want a great marriage, and a great partnership where we show love and respect, where we do things for each other, then lets talk about my computer time, but until then, you keep doing what you want, and I WILL BE DOING WHAT I WANT
. "


BTW, Harudah you are doing a good job - both in trying to heal your relationship, and in helping others. I think you are a valuable friend to SVB1 right now.

But seriously, though, as time goes by my head is getting more involved. I thought that after a while I would get a clue as to where his heart really is.

I'm finding out sooner than I thought. Like I said before, though, I might not even go back to plan B. I'm feeling more justified in just leaving.

Which reminds me, I have to call the Harleys to make an appointment. I'll let you know how things go.


Remember, he has trained you, but you have trained him too. He does what he does because it works. If it doesn't work any longer, he will either leave, or he will get retrained. Please make that call.

Having said that, I can't fault you if you want to leave. You have endured much, perhaps too much. If you continue to work on your marriage it will take a lot MORE work, there will be much heartache (before it's over,) and it may not even succeed. Only you can look back at how he has been, and know if you are willing to invest more of yourself in helping him. I also recommend prayer, and I will be praying for you too.

I believe in you, and in time you will come to know that my trust in you is valid. Until then, take it on faith.

SS

<small>[ October 26, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 10/28/04 04:59 PM
Hi,
Wondering how you are?

Wondering if you made that phone call yet. Please understand, I am not pushing, just wondering where you are.

Hoping your fish is OK. Is this Lenny, or is it Lenny that left you, and you have a new one to replace him?

Smile, it's good for your face.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/29/04 01:05 AM
Hello SS,

I am doing ok, thanks. I did make a call to MB to make an appt. I actually called on Monday, but had to leave a message. I finally got a call back yesterday and made an appt. for next Thursday evening. They didn't have anything sooner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Lenny is doing swimmingly. He is my remaining fish. I hadn't named my fish yet before I lost the first one. I think the goldfish that died had some sort of a bacterial infection, based on what I've been reading. Thankfully, Lenny didn't get sick as well. BTW, in Lenny's defense, he is one of the prettiest goldfish I have ever seen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He's easy to take care of as well.

My H left for Miami yesterday. He stopped at home quickly (while I was at work) to pick up/wash some clothes. He called me at work to say that he was leaving. He thanked me for renting the car and printing out the information for him. (I was slightly shocked.) I printed out his itinerary, rental car information, and directions from the airport to his friend's house. I also printed out directions from his friend's house to our ex-neighbor's house. He apparently left in a hurry because I came home and found that he left wet clothes both in the washer and drier, and I had to finish his laundry for him. He called me when he arrived at his friend's house.

I am a little disturbed today, though. I guess he has access to a computer in Florida. He sent and replied to some e-mails. I noticed that he deleted some of them and I was able to read them. They were, of course, to his sister and niece. He told them that he arrived in Miami and deserves a break for after all of the work he has done. He said "he rented himself" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> a car, which he doesn't like very much, but it was the only one that they had. He told them that he will be visiting our ex-neighbor. He also wants to drive out to Key West. He never mentioned once about having to work to help move his friend's stuff into the house. How much work would that take, anyway? Today, that's it. Then he's got Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and half of Monday to do whatever. It just bothers me that when I suggested to buy a ticket for myself, he said "it was going to be all work." Also, I knew that he planned on visiting our neighbor, but he never mentioned that he was planning on going to Key West (not that I care, but why can't he just TELL ME his plans). AND he deleted his e-mails so that I wouldn't see this info. Why? Ugghhh. Nothing is changing. The chaos is returning. I guess I'll see what kind of info he shares with me when he returns.

Who knows, maybe he is letting off some steam and spending more time by himself before he comes home to REALLY dedicate himself to me and our M.

Who am I kidding?

I haven't been moping around much. I have been limited on what I've been able to do, though, because I've been without my car until today. I spent the weekend cleaning and planning my life, both with, and without, my H. This involves looking into new jobs and a place to live. I'm dying to buy my own place. I just wish that I could focus my energy in one direction now -- work on M and life with H, or plan my new life alone. Otherwise, my house arrest time has been relaxing - reading, watching some DVDs that I've never gotten around to watching, making pizza, etc.

I also want to thank you for checking up on me and for your last post. Your last post was right on in so many ways.

This is not a simple case of needs not being met, and someone having an A - he is going to have to be reprogrammed to show care and protection, and you are going to have to re train yourself to do what is right, and let him be angry if he chooses to be. He has never responded to you being nice to him, (except to take more) so it will take some really firm boundaries. I believe if this is going to work, you are going to have to learn how to be really firm

You can't be happy with him unless some big changes are made. BIG changes

What you can do is start to be the person you are - and not let him batter you for being that person.

You are absolutely right. I really need to stand up for myself when he comes back and BE myself despite what he says or does. He will either be retrained, or he will leave, like you say. If he leaves, that's ok.

It's not going to be easy, though.

I should add, that if you feel he is a danger to you, then you ought to get out now. You should only do this if you feel safe in doing it - if not, please book a flight to Chicago.

To be honest, I don't feel that he is a physical danger to me. Yeah, he's pushed me around and hit me in the past. (It's horrifying and embarrassing to even have to mention this.) I've posted this before somewhere. This was during our first 2 years of M. We went to counseling and he hasn't laid a finger on me since, so I put it behind us. My H didn't want to continue the counseling after our chaplain started to focus on the R between my H and his father. I think that this is the reason that he doesn't want to do counseling again. Well, this reason and possibly because my H doesn't want to be M anymore.

You know, SS, I may be a smart gal. I know that I've accomplished a lot and can accomplish so much more. I am definitely not smart, though, when it comes to matters of the heart.

<small>[ October 28, 2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 10/29/04 03:57 PM
I have another small update. After I posted last night, my H called me. We talked around 20 minutes or so. He asked about the car, told me about his day, etc. etc. He didn't tell me anything else about his plans, other than possibly going to visit our neighbor.

After that, I took a close look at our last phone bill. He has been using our calling card, which I knew, from the hotel. It turns out that he called someone in the city the night he would have received the plan B letter. He was on the phone for 62 minutes. There was also another local number that I didn't recognize that he called the following Saturday for around 5 minutes.

I checked both numbers using reverse phone number look up, but I couldn't get anything. I called both of them as well. With the first, I got a computerized voicemail saying that "the person that you called is not available." With the second phone #, I reached the voicemail of some guy.

I don't know what to think of this, or if I should think of it at all.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/01/04 04:29 AM
Hi SVB1,

I am doing ok, thanks. I did make a call to MB to make an appt. I actually called on Monday, but had to leave a message. I finally got a call back yesterday and made an appt. for next Thursday evening. They didn't have anything sooner.

Glad you are OK, I really expect you to be OK. However, I tend to worry.
Bummer about the appointment, but that is better than nothing.


Lenny is doing swimmingly. He is my remaining fish. I hadn't named my fish yet before I lost the first one. I think the goldfish that died had some sort of a bacterial infection, based on what I've been reading. Thankfully, Lenny didn't get sick as well. BTW, in Lenny's defense, he is one of the prettiest goldfish I have ever seen. He's easy to take care of as well.

I see you have a sense of humor too (swimmingly) Remember, you don't have to defend Lenny to us, we think you made a great choice. I don't mean this as anything except as information for you, but notice that defense of Lenny in your statement. I hope this is useful information for you - in light of what is going on, it SHOULD BE useful.


My H left for Miami yesterday. He stopped at home quickly (while I was at work) to pick up/wash some clothes. He called me at work to say that he was leaving. He thanked me for renting the car and printing out the information for him. (I was slightly shocked.)

Remember, he does what is necessary to secure your help. If getting angry works, he does that, if nice works, he does that. I am not judging him so much as wanting you to be able to understand what he is doing. YOU look for the good in people, HE seems to be saying "what do I have to do get what I want." Or "what is the easiest way to get what I want.?"

I am saying this based on the profile I get from these posts. You correct me if I am wrong.


From the description you relate of the trip, and the deleted mail, nothing has changed. I worry that he will sense your changes, and play the game just differently enough to buy some time until he is ready for WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

Who knows, maybe he is letting off some steam and spending more time by himself before he comes home to REALLY dedicate himself to me and our M.

Who am I kidding?


I admit that we don't know. If I had to make a judgment right now, I don't think I would say he was a changed man, but all of us can change IF WE WANT TO.

You are absolutely right. I really need to stand up for myself when he comes back and BE myself despite what he says or does. He will either be retrained, or he will leave, like you say. If he leaves, that's ok.

You sound like you trust yourself to do what is needed, and you sound like you believe you will know and understand if things continue to be "wrong." I worry, and your Mom worries, because long standing habits are hard to break. So, we trust you, but we will worry, and we expect you to let us know how things are going.
Bad, or good, either way. Also understand that there won't be any "we told you so's" because our aim is to give support, not whack you with 2x4's. If there are problems, lets figure out how to fix things - not bash SVB1.


To be honest, I don't feel that he is a physical danger to me. Yeah, he's pushed me around and hit me in the past. (It's horrifying and embarrassing to even have to mention this.) I've posted this before somewhere.

Not that you mention it, I remember you saying it before. It's one of the things I worry about - when people that are used to getting their way can't get it any longer, they sometimes resort to force. Your mom worries about this too, I know she does. I believe that you will be careful, and leave if there are signs of violence. I trust you with this - but please be careful.


You know, SS, I may be a smart gal. I know that I've accomplished a lot and can accomplish so much more. I am definitely not smart, though, when it comes to matters of the heart.

I thought long about this one. I think you are smart about this too. You figured out that something was wrong, you came here, learned as much as you could, and wanted to confront him. Were you perfect? Well, no, but name one of us that is?

You want your M to succeed. That is admirable, not stupid. You are doing, have done every thing you could think of to make problems into success. All of these are smart. You have said that if he won't work on things, you have a backup plan.

Perfect? Perhaps not
Stupid? No - and you can see many things you have done right.

Hindsight vision is always 20/20. None of us have that kind of vision when we marry. As good as you were, you couldn't see into the future. Please give yourself credit for the good you have done - even more than for the few things that you find (with that marvelous 20/20 hindsight vision) may be mistakes.

I can only imagine your feelings now as you wait for him to return. Please trust yourself, I think you can and will do an overall good job. Please forgive yourself if you don't do this exactly right. None of us are perfect. Please trust God to help and guide you as you try to make your marriage work, I know he loves and cares for you, and I know he continues to work for good in our lives as we exercise faith.

God be with you.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/01/04 09:46 PM
Hello SS,

Remember, he does what is necessary to secure your help. If getting angry works, he does that, if nice works, he does that. I am not judging him so much as wanting you to be able to understand what he is doing. YOU look for the good in people, HE seems to be saying "what do I have to do get what I want." Or "what is the easiest way to get what I want.?"

I am saying this based on the profile I get from these posts. You correct me if I am wrong.


From the description you relate of the trip, and the deleted mail, nothing has changed. I worry that he will sense your changes, and play the game just differently enough to buy some time until he is ready for WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

No, you are correct. I didn't even look at it that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But you are absolutely right. My silly thinking was, "he thanked me - maybe he's changing!"

This is why I post here and appreciate your help and insight.

As for my family, they are worried about me. I spoke with my mother yesterday. I think that she is very disappointed with me. My brother is too. Though I know that they will ultimately support me, no matter what I decide, I still feel 2x4s from them. I got a "ok, so I guess you're going to let him come home and you're going to wait for him to dump you." from my mother the other day. Also, according to my mother, my brother said that he no longer wants to give me any advice, because I won't take it. He says that I will always take my H back, despite what anyone says. My brother told me in the past that I need to just leave him. I'm hesitant to call my brother now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I want to do the right thing. But again, what is right? Leaving my M, or staying in my M? I am still stuck with the belief that I cannot leave my M. I don't want to leave my M, but maybe that's the best thing for me to do. I can't change my H, and I don't think he wants to change. I am praying that it will be absolutely clear to me in one week or two.

I can only imagine your feelings now as you wait for him to return.

To be honest, I don't think I am really looking forward to it. I was more at peace being by myself. He's going to come home and I'm pretty sure things are going to return as before. I haven't seen him for 6 weeks and I feel like I don't even know him anymore. It's going to be so awkward. I should be looking forward to this, and I'm not! That is so wrong! I think this is because it is really sinking in that my H doesn't care for me at all. The latest blow was his trip to Miami without me. If it were ME going to Miami, I would have wanted my H to be with me.

Who knows, though, I could totally change my mind once I see my H. I'll take one look at him and he will be sweet to me, and I will be HOOKED again. I will be under his spell.

I will let you know what happens.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/02/04 02:18 PM
UPDATE......

My H is home. His plane arrived late, so he got home after I got back from class. (I checked on the internet - it was legit) He also called me before he left and left me a message saying the flight was delayed.

Well, he was sweet. He seems different. Good different, though. He brought home food and was attentive. He talked for 45 minutes straight about his trip to Miami - including all the details. He told me about Key West, too. He didn't seem to hide anything.

It was slightly awkward having him home, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I was, and am, being cautious. I am going to really be watching his actions.

This is what also keeps going through my mind,

This is not a simple case of needs not being met, and someone having an A - he is going to have to be reprogrammed to show care and protection, and you are going to have to re train yourself to do what is right, and let him be angry if he chooses to be. He has never responded to you being nice to him, (except to take more) so it will take some really firm boundaries. I believe if this is going to work, you are going to have to learn how to be really firm

You can't be happy with him unless some big changes are made. BIG changes

What you can do is start to be the person you are - and not let him batter you for being that person.


He has already called me today. We will be going to vote together after work.

I'm hopeful again. (but cautious)

<small>[ November 02, 2004, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: kyellow4 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/02/04 02:39 PM
SVB, been keeping up on your story. I'm happy to read this today. I sure hope you rebuild your M.


Sincerely, KY
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 11/02/04 07:18 PM
Good to see you feeling a bit better.. Good luck in M... You and only you know what you can take and what you can't in your marriage...As long as you can look yourself in the mirror and just be content/or happy.. Go for it... but know your limits... And its never too late..

Have fun SBV
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/02/04 09:34 PM
KY, thanks for keeping up on my story. It never ceases to amaze me that there are people out there that care enough to drudge through my looonngg posts and ramblings! That's a lot of reading!

I, too, hope we can rebuild our M. We haven't begun the really tuff stuff yet, though. We haven't even discussed it. I know at least I'll do my best.

Harudah, thanks to YOU too for sticking with me. Only time will tell now what will happen. I'm hoping for the best.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/03/04 05:47 AM
My silly thinking was, "he thanked me - maybe he's changing!"

Forgive me, but I would change this to
"My hopeful thinking........."

I don't think you are silly to have hope.


As for my family, they are worried about me. I spoke with my mother yesterday. I think that she is very disappointed with me.


Remember that they want you to be happy. That is all they want, and they think they know the best way for you to be happy.

It sometimes helps to tell them that you want to do all that you can to save your M, and that if H doesn't respond you will take their advice.

I look back at what most posters here have said to you about sticking to plan B. They want to spare you the pain - because they care about you.

My brother is too. Though I know that they will ultimately support me, no matter what I decide, I still feel 2x4s from them. I got a "ok, so I guess you're going to let him come home and you're going to wait for him to dump you." from my mother the other day. Also, according to my mother, my brother said that he no longer wants to give me any advice, because I won't take it. He says that I will always take my H back, despite what anyone says. My brother told me in the past that I need to just leave him. I'm hesitant to call my brother now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Again all you can do is explain your motives, and methods, and go on. You can also thank your Mom, and brother for their help, and ask them to keep helping. Tell them that you may not take all of their advice, but that you are thankful for it, and that you know they want what is best for you.


I want to do the right thing. But again, what is right? Leaving my M, or staying in my M? I am still stuck with the belief that I cannot leave my M. I don't want to leave my M, but maybe that's the best thing for me to do. I can't change my H, and I don't think he wants to change.

You have a right to your own feelings about marriage. I often ask myself "what would Jesus do?"

I imagine him saying to the women taken in adultery "neither do I condemn thee, go thy way and sin no more."

It's the same Jesus that said "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Now, can you imagine him saying to you:
"Tough luck, you married him, you are stuck with him. I don't care if he beats you, cheats, on you, or emotionally abuses you, you have to stay with him."

I can't imagine that -

I am praying that it will be absolutely clear to me in one week or two.

When I have an important decision, I usually gather all the facts, and make a decision based on the information I have. Then I take it to God in prayer, and I say: "This is what I think is best, is it what you want?

If it is right, I feel positive, clear headed, and sure. If it is wrong, I feel unsure, foggy, and doubtful.

It's hard to explain, but I know you can get an answer the same way. Perhaps you already have experience. Please forgive me if I am telling you something you already know.



To be honest, I don't think I am really looking forward to it. I was more at peace being by myself. He's going to come home and I'm pretty sure things are going to return as before. I haven't seen him for 6 weeks and I feel like I don't even know him anymore. It's going to be so awkward. I should be looking forward to this, and I'm not! That is so wrong! I think this is because it is really sinking in that my H doesn't care for me at all. The latest blow was his trip to Miami without me. If it were ME going to Miami, I would have wanted my H to be with me.

That's what I meant. Hard to face him, hard to know how to react, hard to know what to say.


Well, he was sweet. He seems different. Good different, though. He brought home food and was attentive. He talked for 45 minutes straight about his trip to Miami - including all the details. He told me about Key West, too. He didn't seem to hide anything.

That's a good sign. If he thought about things - and if the short plan B helped his thought processes, he could be realizing what might really happen. To early to tell though.

It was slightly awkward having him home, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I was, and am, being cautious. I am going to really be watching his actions.

Keep in mind all your findings of the last 6 or 7 months. Keep in mind he would leave and not tell you where he went. Keep in mind the other things you found, and how you were treated. I think you will know by the end of the year for sure.

It might be good to tell him point blank that things need to be different or it is all over. I don't know how you feel about that, and it may be well to wait until after your phone counseling before you do anything much.

I don't think you have to watch him 24/7, or that you have to confront him about everything. Practice standing up for yourself - you already know what he does, or has said in the past that is disrespectful, so practice a response.

Why did you do it that way? Don't you know my way is better?
"Well, I think my way is better, and I am willing to talk about it, but unless you have a really good reason, I am going to continue to do it the way I want."

Again, this is for ideas, you can do much better.


It doesn't have to be a big deal, you just live like you want to live, and see how he reacts.


Don't let your families comments get to you.

You are trustworthy, please trust yourself.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/04/04 10:07 PM
Everything is still continuing to go well here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> H is still being very sweet to me.

We haven't had any discussions yet about our M issues. He hasn't brought up anything, which worries me a little. A part of me thinks that he figures that if he is sweet to me, we don't have to talk about any issues. WRONG. I plan on talking to him tonight. I have my MC appt. tonight with Jennifer. I haven't told H yet, but I will tell him as soon as I get home. I can't hide it since he will be home, and I don't want to hide it, either.

It might be good to tell him point blank that things need to be different or it is all over.

That is exactly what I am going to tell him. After I talk to Jennifer, (and based on what she suggests) I hope to lay out what I would like as a plan to re-build our M. Hopefully he will react well. Hopefully, he will be willing to fully participate.

Keep in mind all your findings of the last 6 or 7 months. Keep in mind he would leave and not tell you where he went. Keep in mind the other things you found, and how you were treated.

I am going to do my best to keep this in mind. I am also keeping in mind to be MYSELF and stand up for MYSELF. Thankfully, I haven't had to stand up for myself yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's a good sign. If he thought about things - and if the short plan B helped his thought processes, he could be realizing what might really happen. To early to tell though.

I have more thoughts about this. I'm going to post more about this later. There was something that my H told me on his 1st night back that might have given me a clue to what he might have been thinking during his time away. It might just be wishful thinking again on my part.

I think you will know by the end of the year for sure.

Me too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (all smiley faces tonight - have you noticed?)
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/05/04 02:41 PM
Big update.

I got home from work last night and my H was waiting for me with dinner already prepared. I told him about the counseling - that I was expecting a phone call later on. He didn't have a problem with it. I told him that things had to change. I told him that I was really serious in the letter that I sent about coming up with a plan and working on the M when he returned. Again, he said that was fine as long as I don't "push it." I asked him what he meant by that. He said he doesn't want me to bring it up everyday like before. (Sheesh that was a long time ago - pre plan A!) I said I wouldn't, we could take it slowly. Oh, and I printed out the beginning of the basic concepts, "How Dr. Harley learned to save marriages" and I asked him to pretty please read it.

Then I had my counseling with Jennifer - it was fabulous. She said that I had done a good job up until now. Now I need to return to plan A and introduce him to the basic concepts of the MB plan. Now that he seems interested in working on our M, he really needs to know what to do. I can't push the plan on him because he might not be 100% ready. I need to do a "soft sell" with him. She suggested what I might say to him. If he doesn't want to go along with it, I could always resort to another plan B in the future.

Well, later on that night, I came downstairs, and H was reading what I had printed out for him! He finished reading it and said, "where's the rest of it?" I said I'd print it out for him and he can read it all whenever he feels like it. I then told him exactly what Jennifer suggested that I tell him. It seemed like a good moment. He's ok with everything. He's not extremely enthusiastic (not that he said anything), but he's willing. Jennifer said that I could expect that. He didn't say very much, but I knew he was listeninig to and hearing what I said.
It's good enough for me for now.

Have you guys fallen off your chairs?

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/05/04 09:00 PM
I haven't fallen off my chair - I was hoping and praying for this!!

I don't have much time - but just a couple of things.

1. Good for you -

2. We don't know what will happen, but looking on the bright side is a good thing.

3. Be careful - use your heart to keep your hopes up, but use your head to make decisions from day to day.

There are still a lot of things that are unexplained about his past actions. Until you have a few months of the new H, hope, but please, please take care of yourself, and protect your heart.

So glad you called Jen, I think you are too. There is a big difference between a real Pro, and those of us who are fellow travelers.

Back later when I have more time. Thanks so much for the update, I tend to worry too much.

SS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: I asked H to leave - 11/05/04 10:02 PM
svb, that is awesome news! I am very glad you contacted Jennifer, I think she is a great counselor who can guide you through this. Good news! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/07/04 07:38 PM
Hi Mel -
(SS waves )

Hey SVB, I hope your weekend was a good one. A few days together should tell you more about how he is really feeling.

I hope you are holding up well - no matter how he is doing.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/09/04 07:35 PM
More updates....

Everything is still going well so far. Keep your fingers crossed, pleeeease. At night, when H and I sleep, he always wants to hold me. If he doesn't have his arm around me, he has to have some sort of contact - even just a toe. It's weird. It's not that we've never snuggled before, but it's as if he doesn't want to let me go.

As for giving him more of Dr. Harley's basic concepts, I printed it all out and put it in a binder with dividers. (I read somewhere that someone else did this for their spouse). I gave it to him last night before we went to sleep. I thought he was going to freak at the amount of information to read (H is not a reader). But he didn't. He just joked and asked where all the little pictures were. He said he wanted little pictures. I said that I would add stickers and little pictures everywhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I pointed out the dividers and said he could read it a little at a time, if he liked.

Then ... get this ... he asked me "does that book (His Needs Her Needs) come in Spanish?"
I said "probably, do you want it in Spanish? I have it in English." He said he wants to send it to his sister. He said English is fine for him. Not that he said that he'd read it exactly, though. I guess I'll leave it out and about for him to pick up and look at whenever he feels like it - if he wants to. I don't want to pressure him.

OK, here's the bad part...

Today is my H's first day off from work alone at home. Needless to say, I'm feeling a little anxious. I don't want to slip back into that same pattern - where he sneaks off on his days off and I panic. I didn't check his miles this morning. I want to give him a chance. If he goes somewhere today, I will most likely have a clue anyway - doing laundry, freshly showered when I come home. But then again, he already told me yesterday that he's got to do laundry today, and he's been meaning to go to the gym more often - so it pretty likely that I'll find both, but it could be legit. I guess if I find him freshly showered and doing laundry, I will have to start checking his miles again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He's got to earn my trust again.

I've also been using my voice-activated recorders here and there. I haven't noticed anything really special. He talked to one sister last Thursday, and his favorite sister yesterday. The good news is that I heard NO talk of "our M is over." or "I want to be free."

He did talk to them both about his aspirations at work. After this experience he had of opening a new store - he wants to continue doing it. He told me this, too, though. Although he has me under the impression that it will be all local and he can come home for the weekends and be off for two weeks to a month between each project. He told sis it would be international. Either way, it would be only for a couple of years, and it would help him advance more quickly in his career. I think he might be afraid of my reaction and he might have been "testing me out" by at least mentioning it to me, but leaving out the international part.

Opinions?

OK, one last thing, he mentioned to sis yesterday that he's thinking that he'd like to pay for niece's honeymoon. His niece is now in a serious R and there is talk of M. He said that he doesn't know how to bring it up to me. Why ON EARTH would he want to pay for her honeymoon? 1. She's about to turn 30 and she works. 2. She will have a husband who works. 3. She has PARENTS, too. 4. We gave her a great gift when she graduated from college.(paid for 1/2 of her laptop) 5. We used almost all of our airline miles to bring her and her 2 brothers up to the States for the holidays last year - not to mention all of the money that we spent while they were here. 6. He's got 24 other nieces and nephews. Do we have to do this with all of them, too? (Now you know why he'd be afraid to bring it up to me!)

At least I'm aware of this before he brings it up. I can emotionally prepare for this discussion! It's not that I don't want to give her a gift, but COME ON - her whole honeymoon? ! We are NOT made of money, though I think he likes to portray it. We are really going to have to POJA this! He has to learn what POJA is first, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I might have to give him a crash course on that one.

Whew, it felt good to let that last part get out of my system. I wouldn't go off like that on him in real life. I would be a lot nicer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What do you guys think so far? Good signs or bad signs?

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/09/04 09:36 PM
I have a couple more comments.

First, I forgot to mention that sis recommended to H that he go to IC. Yeay sis! She thinks that he gets too uptight about things (they were discussing his work when this came up). He will more likely listen to her advice than mine. I am very glad that she mentioned this to him.

Second, I've been thinking a lot about something that my H talked about on his first night back. He was talking about his trip to Miami and he talked AT LENGTH about the R between his friend and his friend's GF. He said that he has absolutely NO IDEA why this girl is with his friend. This couple just purchased a house together and the GF had to worry about taking care of absolutely everything. H's friend was just clueless about and not interested in anything that needed to be done. He likened his friend to a big child who doesn't even realize or appreciate what is being done for him.

OK, this could be wishful thinking, but I am hoping that H's 6 weeks away from me, plus his visit to Miami, made him realize what he's got in me. I mean, I am not perfect, nobody is, but I DO have good qualities. I guess I just hope that the plan A/ plan B combo really opened up his eyes to them. I think it might have.

He also mentioned meeting some of his friend's friends - all from Argentina. H was not impressed at all. He felt that they were all very shallow. When they first met, they all looked at him up and down. He said the girls were only worried about getting their nails and hair done, and going to the gym, and having a good time. They had no conversation at all. H said, "who wants somebody like that?"

Ok, again, I hope that these are all signs of his thinking. Time will probably tell. Of course, it would be nice if he SAID stuff like, "I missed you," or "I appreciate all that you do," or "my time away has made me realize what I've got in you." But he is not a man of words - he is a man of action - and those are MY needs to hear them.
I am going to wait for him to read MB's concepts and just enjoy what I do get from him for now.

Thanks for reading.

<small>[ November 09, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/09/04 11:44 PM
Well, it looks like I'll have to start checking miles again. H has done laundry and has already taken a shower, too.

I have set up my recorder today. I'll have to listen to it tomorrow to have more of an idea of what time he left and returned, etc. He did buy wine today, but that doesn't mean that it's the only place he went, just as in the past.

H is upstairs and ironing some clothes right now. He seems pretty happy. I, on the other hand, have a stomachache. I guess this doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it's not a good sign. I will have to keep checking on him for a while now.

I know that I am not supposed to get my hopes up too high. I'm supposed to keep in mind what he has done in the past and how he has treated me - and I am, but it's tough.

Time will tell for sure.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/10/04 05:48 AM
The things he is saying sound really good. It does sound like he is starting to get it. Coupled with the different actions, I believe you could have something here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just as your mother worries, we worry. You are important. Your feelings matter, we don't want to see you hurt.

I trust you to take care of yourself. It sounds like you have hope, but that you are being careful. I think that is wise.

You should also know that if H has changed, and he finds out about snooping it will most likely harm recovery efforts. Please be careful - before if he found out, so what, he wasn't acting like H anyway. Now he is, and things are a little different.

I have run out of time, but I will try to post more tomorow. When is your next appointment with Jen?

I hope you are getting some joy out of this reunion with your H. I hope it helps both of you. Really, if you think about it, it should.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/12/04 06:02 AM
Hello SS,

The things he is saying sound really good. It does sound like he is starting to get it. Coupled with the different actions, I believe you could have something here.

Boy,I sure hope so! I am glad that you think so.

You should also know that if H has changed, and he finds out about snooping it will most likely harm recovery efforts. Please be careful - before if he found out, so what, he wasn't acting like H anyway. Now he is, and things are a little different.

I didn't really think of this, but I will be careful.

When is your next appointment with Jen?

I haven't officially made one yet. She mentioned that I should talk to her again in a couple of weeks to let her know how things are going - if I feel that I need to. I think I will give this 2 to 4 weeks to see how we are doing before I make another appointment.

Everything is still going well. He asked me again the other night if I found HNHN in Spanish yet. (I didn't bring up the subject at all) I haven't noticed if he's read any more of MB concepts. I haven't seen the binder move at all. Hmmmm.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/11/04 09:51 PM
Double post

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/11/04 10:02 PM
Everything is still going well so far. Keep your fingers crossed, pleeeease.

OK, fingers, and toes too, just in case.


At night, when H and I sleep, he always wants to hold me. If he doesn't have his arm around me, he has to have some sort of contact - even just a toe. It's weird. It's not that we've never snuggled before, but it's as if he doesn't want to let me go.

Actions need to match words. I believe this is an important indicator. I bet you snuggle back with all your heart. Enjoy it, you earned it.

As for giving him more of Dr. Harley's basic concepts, I printed it all out and put it in a binder with dividers. (I read somewhere that someone else did this for their spouse). I gave it to him last night before we went to sleep. I thought he was going to freak at the amount of information to read (H is not a reader). But he didn't. He just joked and asked where all the little pictures were. He said he wanted little pictures. I said that I would add stickers and little pictures everywhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I pointed out the dividers and said he could read it a little at a time, if he liked.

If he is not a reader, he may not be able to bring himself to read it even though he may think it is a good idea. I don't know how much stock I would put in his reading, or not reading.

..............He said English is fine for him. Not that he said that he'd read it exactly, though. I guess I'll leave it out and about for him to pick up and look at whenever he feels like it - if he wants to. I don't want to pressure him.

He does have to show effort - and I don't think you should worry about pressure.
Well, wait a minute.........that's not right. No one likes to be pressured, however it would be good to point out your feelings and be honest. You were ready to leave, and if things don't change, you will leave. He needs to know how close you were, and he needs to know why. That will be hard for you, because you sense there may be a beginning recovery, and you don't want to mess that up. Remember, you don't want to recover what you HAD BEFORE, and that's what many get, if they don't bring things out in the open and discuss them.

So, what I am saying, is don't be afraid to get things out in the open. Him joking about reading, and pictures won't get the work done, and you may have to state that plainly sometime. It is a good SIGN, but that alone WON'T FIX ANYTHING. You are going to have to have some hard discussions (hard because you don't know how he will react) before this is over, don't be afraid of them, because they will make the difference between a good marriage, and having what you had last time. I think you know what you want.

OK, here's the bad part...

Today is my H's first day off from work alone at home. Needless to say, I'm feeling a little anxious. I don't want to slip back into that same pattern - where he sneaks off on his days off and I panic. I didn't check his miles this morning. I want to give him a chance.


You not knowing is not "giving him a chance." Giving him a chance was letting him come home. It's up to him to show he is making good use of the chance. Go ahead and check, I think you need to know. Unless you have all the facts, you don't know if this is working.

If he goes somewhere today, I will most likely have a clue anyway - doing laundry, freshly showered when I come home. But then again, he already told me yesterday that he's got to do laundry today, and he's been meaning to go to the gym more often - so it pretty likely that I'll find both, but it could be legit. I guess if I find him freshly showered and doing laundry, I will have to start checking his miles again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

He's got to earn my trust again.


Exactly, he has to earn your trust. If you have the book "love busters, habits that destroy romantic love," there is a good description of why independent behavior is destructive of marriages. That's what he was doing - and it looked like an A, but even if it wasn't, he destroyed your trust in him by HIS ACTIONS, not because of any thing you did or did not do. If you are going to recover, these kinds of things need to change, and they will only change if he knows about them.

So, if he won't read, you are going to have to talk a lot, and he has to be willing to listen and do the work. If not, you may as well quit now, because it won't work long term.

Why am I telling you all this?
Because I don't want you to avoid hard conversations in the name of recovery. Recovery means that you have them, (hard conversations) and that the outcome is the right one. If you don't have them, or if he won't learn, and change, your chances are slim. That's why your mother, and brother wanted you to quit, and it's still going to be hard, even if it works, there will be some pain before it's over.

I've also been using my voice-activated recorders here and there. I haven't noticed anything really special. He talked to one sister last Thursday, and his favorite sister yesterday. The good news is that I heard NO talk of "our M is over." or "I want to be free."

I think your H is not used to sharing his deepest feelings. Even when he talked to his sisters, it was about his plans, not about how he felt. I don't know if you will get through to this part of him in the short term, but if he will change his actions PERMANENTLY you will know his feelings have changed also.
I only get a small snapshot of things through this communication method that we use. What do you think? Has he ever been good at sharing his feelings?

About his job -
Having his travel will not be good for your marriage. If this is going to happen, you will need lots of help to remain married to him. I say this because recovery takes time as it is, but it is so much more difficult when one of the parties is not there.

You already know all the reasons - maybe Jen will have suggestions for what to do about this.

Opinions?

I like chocolate cake best, but pumpkin pie isn't bad on Thanksgiving.


OK, one last thing, he mentioned to sis yesterday that he's thinking that he'd like to pay for niece's honeymoon. His niece is now in a serious R and there is talk of M. He said that he doesn't know how to bring it up to me. Why ON EARTH would he want to pay for her honeymoon? 1. She's about to turn 30 and she works. 2. She will have a husband who works. 3. She has PARENTS, too. 4. We gave her a great gift when she graduated from college. (paid for 1/2 of her laptop) 5. We used almost all of our airline miles to bring her and her 2 brothers up to the States for the holidays last year - not to mention all of the money that we spent while they were here. 6. He's got 24 other nieces and nephews. Do we have to do this with all of them, too? (Now you know why he'd be afraid to bring it up to me!)

Tell him the wedding is coming up and you have some ideas for a gift, then see what he says. (but really have an idea, you might need it.)

The Policy of Joint Agreement covers all of this. In fact, Dr Harleys stuff covers it all. If you can read and agree on the materials, your marriage will become really good, strong, close over time. It worked for us, and it can work for you too, but it requires ACTION. It will take about two years, hence my fear of him traveling for that long.


At least I'm aware of this before he brings it up. I can emotionally prepare for this discussion! It's not that I don't want to give her a gift, but COME ON - her whole honeymoon? ! We are NOT made of money, though I think he likes to portray it. We are really going to have to POJA this! He has to learn what POJA is first, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I might have to give him a crash course on that one.

Not made of money - hmmm, you sound like your parents now.
I'm teasing, I'm teasing, don't take it personal.

Perhaps he does want to make a big impression on them. However things like that shouldn't be done at your expense. Go ahead and tell him your give idea, and see where it goes.

Whew, it felt good to let that last part get out of my system. I wouldn't go off like that on him in real life. I would be a lot nicer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This is one of items important in helping your marriage recover.
Do you get the newsletter by email from Steve Harley? One of the last few issues had a discussion about radical honest, vs care and protection. You NEED to be honest with him about these things. If you can't learn to discuss your true feelings, you won't have that marriage you want, because he can't do what he doesn't know.

I realize this is his fault - because of how he treated you when you would express your feelings, but you need to change that this time around. Notice you already know this, but I keep talking about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I do that a lot when I want you to realize that something is REALLY IMPORTANT. Smile, I am half teasing, but only half. OK?

SO, you need to express your feelings - that's radical honesty. You also need to protect his feelings, so you need to learn to do it in ways that he will understand, and accept.
"Men are from Mars, Women from Venus" is a good book to help with this, because the ways you want to do it are usually what works best for Gals, and I wonder if that is part of his problem, that he doesn't understand sometimes.

There will be a lot of learning for both of you. I speak from experience. Our marriage is good, but I can't fully express how wonderful it is for BOTH of us to be happy - not one of us at the others expense.

What do you guys think so far? Good signs or bad signs?

I see good signs. Normal snags, and you need to build on this as discussed, but I see good signs.
I think you can get excited, but do it carefully. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have a couple more comments.

That's OK, it's your thread. You can comment as much as you like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

First, I forgot to mention that sis recommended to H that he go to IC. Yeay sis! She thinks that he gets too uptight about things (they were discussing his work when this came up). He will more likely listen to her advice than mine. I am very glad that she mentioned this to him.

Men and women often react to stress differently. she would understand him well, having lived with him for a long time. I wonder if she would talk to you about HIM, and give you pointers. Are you good friends with her?

Second, I've been thinking a lot about something that my H talked about on his first night back. ......... he talked AT LENGTH about the R between his friend and his friend's GF. ..................H's friend was just clueless ............He likened his friend to a big child who doesn't even realize or appreciate what is being done for him.

OK, this could be wishful thinking, but I am hoping that H's 6 weeks away from me, plus his visit to Miami, made him realize what he's got in me.


I hope it helped too. If he is truthful with himself, he will realize what you are - what he has. From his ACTIONS it seems he does understand .......at least a little bit.

I mean, I am not perfect, nobody is, but I DO have good qualities.

Wait, wait, wait just a minute. Your mom told me you WERE perfect. Can you two get your stories straight? I would really like to know which it is.

Do you know what things he had problem with? Are there things he had real problems with? From the stories you relate (about what he says when you are cold) he isn't realistic. How would you know what the real issues are? Do you know already, or do you need to find out what your own Love Busters are?

Fun aside, it's something to think about - but I bet you are working on it - that would be my thought without knowing.

I guess I just hope that the plan A/ plan B combo really opened up his eyes to them. I think it might have.

I think it is all coming together for him, but it will take a few months to know if this is a false recovery or not. He can't pretend forever - though it looks sincere right now.

He also mentioned meeting some of his friend's friends - all from Argentina. H was not impressed at all. He felt that they were all very shallow. When they first met, they all looked at him up and down. He said the girls were only worried about getting their nails and hair done, and going to the gym, and having a good time. They had no conversation at all. H said, "who wants somebody like that?"

It begins to look like HE doesn't - it looks like he is thinking about it, and you look really good right now. Who would have thought he would get it like that? I think he might be trying to tell you his feelings with his stories. Would that be consistent with his past way of doing things?

Ok, again, I hope that these are all signs of his thinking. Time will probably tell. Of course, it would be nice if he SAID stuff like, "I missed you," or "I appreciate all that you do," or "my time away has made me realize what I've got in you." But he is not a man of words - he is a man of action - and those are MY needs to hear them.

Harleys stuff is about getting YOUR NEEDS MET the way you want, and need them met.

If I am correct, he has never been one for those kind of words. He CAN LEARN to meet your needs, the way you want them met, just like the rest of us do. That's the two years I spoke about earlier.

Anyone can have an average marriage, and "get by," but I think you want a lot more. Again, it's possible to have a really good one, but it takes work. It really can be as good as you imagine it can be - I want you to know that.

I am going to wait for him to read MB's concepts and just enjoy what I do get from him for now.

If he says disrespectful things please call him on it. He can be retrained, don't let him get away with his old way of doing things.

It's good not to push, but make sure SOMETHING is happening.

If nothing happens in a few days, perhaps you could ask him to read one section, or part of a section by (two or three days out) so that you could both discus it. Please don't let it just fade away.


Need to go, keep up the good work. Sometimes it's hard to come back when I would like to, but I do care.

SS

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/13/04 06:28 AM
I'm feeling a little anxious again today.

I finished listening to my voice activated recording from Tuesday (finally). That was H's day off. He left the house and was gone for around 5.5 to 6 hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I checked our credit card statement online to see if I could find anything charged for that day - to get an idea of what he might have done. There was a charge for wine store purchase. THEN there was a charge at a restaurant - around 22 dollars.

I knew he went to go buy wine. I saw it when I came home. I didn't ask him what else he did that day - and he didn't volunteer the information either.

Now I know it's a good sign that he charged the restaurant bill. That means he's not hiding it, really. However, if I ask him about it when the bill finally comes in, he could always say that he went out with a buddy, when, in fact, he could have gone out with some chick. He could say anything.

I am definitely going to ask him about it, just to see what he says. I am also going to ask him about the phone bill with the strange phone # on it (that he called for an hour the day that he received my plan b letter)

I've called that number a couple of times (with my phone # blocked) but no one ever answers. I've considered paying an extra service charge to be able to do a reverse phone number look up on an unlisted #. Instead, though, like I said, I think I'll pull out the bill and ask him point blank if he called that number.

Am I overreacting over this stuff? I know I need to be checking up on him. I don't trust him yet.
Who knows, maybe my new H will surprise me with honest information - that he can prove.

I haven't taken my ADs in two days. I ran out and haven't picked up my new prescription yet. I think I'm feeling the effects. To be honest, I was thinking about stopping with them. I figured that maybe I don't need them anymore now that H and I are (sort of) recovering. Now I think that I am wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: turtlehead Re: I asked H to leave - 11/13/04 06:47 AM
svb,

I think it's good that you're not letting things slide when they raise a red flag for you. It's hard to do that and not come off as a control freak or an accusatory wench. If he tends to get defensive when you bring up things like this, just shift the focus back to yourself: H, when I see a bill for lunch at a nice restaurant, I feel insecure because I wonder who you would take to a nice lunch other than me. Then it gets to be about him reassuring you rather than you pointing the finger at him. If he has nothing to hide, defensiveness should dissipate (or not be there at all to begin with).

I think I'll pull out the bill and ask him point blank if he called that number.

No, ask him whose number it is. You already know he called it.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/12/04 07:10 PM
I'm feeling a little anxious again today.
I would be too, don't think you are abnormal. You want so badly to know, but you don't have all the answers yet.

I finished listening to my voice activated recording from Tuesday (finally). That was H's day off. He left the house and was gone for around 5.5 to 6 hours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am not sure where you live, but in a urban setting normal personal business (shopping, gymn, haircut) could take up the time easily. I have no idea if this would be normal for him, or not. It sounds like it is not normal - or at least you feel all the time away was not needed.

I checked our credit card statement online to see if I could find anything charged for that day - to get an idea of what he might have done. There was a charge for wine store purchase. THEN there was a charge at a restaurant - around 22 dollars.

How far away was this restaurant? Is is somewhere he would go with a friend? Do you have any idea, or, is it a place you don't know much about? Could he be meeting people there for business?


I knew he went to go buy wine. I saw it when I came home. I didn't ask him what else he did that day - and he didn't volunteer the information either.

You can ask in round about ways -
How was your day?
Did you get every thing done you wanted?
Did you get lunch OK while you were out?
Did you have any fun today while you were out?

It would be common for my W to ask me
What did you do all day?
But, I think this approach did not work well for you before.

Now I know it's a good sign that he charged the restaurant bill. That means he's not hiding it, really. However, if I ask him about it when the bill finally comes in, he could always say that he went out with a buddy. He could say anything.

Yes, he could. I recommend you don't ask DIRECTLY about things that you can't confirm in some other way. What good would it serve except to make him wary?

In other words, don't come out and say "who did you go to lunch with? If he is doing something wrong, it will set his radar off. Better to do the indirect stuff, and see how he responds. I worry - can you tell when he is not telling the truth? If he is up to something, even simple questions could set him to thinking. UNLESS - unless you are used to communicating with him all the time like that. If not, pleaset start, but about other things, not related to where he goes, and what he does.
If you aren't comfortable with this, just leave it alone, and continue to monitor what you can.

I am definitely going to ask him about it, just to see what he says. I am also going to ask him about the phone bill with the strange phone # on it (that he called for an hour the day that he received my plan b letter) I advise against it. Don't let him think you are watching that close. AS we said last spring, it just makes them hide it all the better next time.

I've called that number a couple of times (with my phone # blocked) but no one ever answers. I've considered paying an extra service charge to be able to do a reverse phone number look up on an unlisted #. Instead, though, like I said, I think I'll pull out the bill and ask him point blank if he called that number.

You already know he called it. My suggestion would bge not to ask things that won't get you any real imformation. If he lies, what would you acomplish? For instance, if he says "I don't remember if I did or not, why do you ask?"

If that happened, you would still be frustrated, and he would be wary again. If you know, and could catch him in a lie, then it would get you something, but I don't see what asking like this will get you.

Am I overreacting over this stuff? I know I need to be checking up on him. I don't trust him yet.
Who knows, maybe my new H will surprise me with honest information - that he can prove.


If he did, how would you know it was honest if he CAN'T prove it? Then both of you would be frustrated. If he is honesty working on this, it would not be good for his recovery, and for his view of you. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but am I making sense?

I haven't taken my ADs in two days. I ran out and haven't picked up my new prescription yet. I think I'm feeling the effects. To be honest, I was thinking about stopping with them. I figured that maybe I don't need them anymore now that H and I are (sort of) recovering. Now I think that I am wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I would keep taking them until you:

1. Know you are well on the way to recovery.
2. Or you are in Chicago.

You really need to be on an even keel for this stuff. Don't mess with what you know has been working.

Now, I am so sorry that you still doubt about this. It will be difficult to get through - remember your mom, and your brothers feelings about it. All they wanted to do was spare you from this doubt, and pain.

I hate to see it too - and I know that saying you have a hard time with all of it is a BIG understatement. I still trust you to do a good job of it. Please be careful, take your medicine, do the best you can, and trust God to make up the difference.

This is one of those big earth shaking, life changing events, but the best way to get through it is calm, measured, careful watching, and working every day. You can do this - trust yourself.

SS

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/12/04 10:12 PM
Turtlehead,

I want you to know that I read your thread (your update). It was really inspiring. I am glad that you posted it. Also, thanks for sticking with me through the months. I know that you have always posted to me and it means a lot.

SS,

How far away was this restaurant? Is is somewhere he would go with a friend? Do you have any idea, or, is it a place you don't know much about? Could he be meeting people there for business?

The restaurant is in Philadelphia. It's a regular restaurant- Longhorn Steakhouse. He bought wine in New Jersey. (That would mean a lot of driving and a lot of time) It is a restaurant he could have gone to with a friend. However, he hasn't discussed any friends with me in a long time. As far as I know, he doesn't have any that he hangs out with here in the Philly area. He had one that he used to hang out with a few years ago (from work), but he stopped because "he lived too far away." Then this friend "moved away" to another state. I never met him, although he called the house a couple of times and he emailed my H as well. Then, a few years ago (around 2000), H started coming home late from work, sometimes smelling like smoke. He would "act" as if he had to stay late at work, but then I confronted him about smelling like smoke. He THEN admitted that he was hanging out with a buddy from work. This buddy never called the house, nor did I ever meet him (at the time). He told me that he was hiding it from me because he said I got jealous when he hung out with friends. I told him that I didn't mind him hanging out with friends, as long as he TOLD me he was going to. Well, after that, he would tell me every time he would hang out with this friend, "Bill." He would mostly leave after 11:30pm because "Bill" got off from work at midnight. He said they would go out for a drink and talk. Likewise, he stopped hanging out with "Bill." I have since been introduced to this Bill guy at my H's job (this past year). I told H afterwards, "oh yeah, the guy you used to hang out with." Did he really hang out with Bill? I don't know.

I don't know, I never thought I gave my H a hard time about hanging out with his friends. Maybe I did, I really don't remember. (This is apparently a huge issue with us/him) Since my H has started acting so strangely this past year and I tried to talk to him about our issues "pre-plan A," one of the things that my H has mentioned (more than once) is that I never like his friends and that I don't like him hanging out with friends. This is something that I am trying to work on. That is why I included this in my plan B letter as one of my mistakes in our M. That is also why I didn't give him a hard time about him going to help his friend in Miami.

As far as I know, he could have been hanging out with a friend on all of his days off this past year at some bar, just talking, and he was afraid to tell me. I would love to really believe this one - but it doesn't explain a lot of his other behaviors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Trust me, I am NOT some B@#$%^Y controlling W. At least I don't think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I am actually a really easygoing person. Too easygoing! Yeah, I've made some comments to him in the past about some of his other friends. These were friends who OBVIOUSLY were using him and STOLE from him and I pointed it out to him. He would DEFEND them when I said these things. How can you say that about so and so? He is like a BROTHER to me! And then you know what? - he eventually realized the truth about so and so on his own. However he has other friends (from Chicago) that I have no problems with - like the one moving to Miami. So how can he say these things? - that I don't like ANY of his friends? Do I get jealous if he hangs out with them? Ok, maybe a little, (sometimes) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I really don't know what to think anymore. It could be true what he says about his friends, or could it be a cover or an excuse? Is it partly true? Is this just him being manipulative again? I am so confused.

OK, that's probably more about his friends than you ever wanted to know.

You can ask in round about ways - ...It would be common for my W to ask me What did you do all day? But, I think this approach did not work well for you before.

It didn't work well for me before. He would say he did "nothing." How would he react now? I don't know. I would like to start discussing these things more openly in the future - ex. -what did you do today?

I have a while to ask him about the restaurant charge. I think when the credit card bill comes in I will casually ask him about the charge. We do that all the time anyway when the bill comes in and we don't recognize, or remember some charge. Hopefully he will be positive about it. I have to wait till the beginning of Dec, though, to ask him.

As for the phone number, I think I'm going to do the same. I think I will be casually looking at the phone bill tonight and ask him, "who's number is this? I don't recognize it." I feel like I need to see his reaction. It might give me a clue to his real thoughts and behaviors. It will be a bad sign if he gets defensive about it. "Oh, I don't rememeber. I don't recognize it." I won't push it after that. But if he gets defensive, I think I will have one foot out the door again.

Do you really think it will cause that much damage if I ask him?

OK, guess who's going to the pharmacy now to pick up her meds?

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/12/04 10:47 PM
As for the phone number, I think I'm going to do the same. I think I will be casually looking at the phone bill tonight and ask him, "who's number is this? I don't recognize it." I feel like I need to see his reaction. It might give me a clue to his real thoughts and behaviors. It will be a bad sign if he gets defensive about it. "Oh, I don't rememeber. I don't recognize it." I won't push it after that. But if he gets defensive, I think I will have one foot out the door again.

Is this the normal bill, or did you print it off the web to see what was going on? Lets see, that was quite a while ago, so it's probably the normal bill.

You are probably right about if he gets defensive.

Do you really think it will cause that much damage if I ask him?

I don't know, but lets talk about it. If he was doing something wrong, and if he is trying now - what will it look like to him?
"Hey, I am trying hard now, and she is still spying on me - there is no way this is going to work."

If he is really doing something wrong, then he wil hide it even deeper. So, only ask when it will tell you something. Examine the issue, and ask "what will I get if I ask him about this?" Or "will I learn anything new if I ask him about this?"

If you get nothing, or won't learn something VALUEABLE, then leave it alone no matter how badly you want to ask.

For instance sometimes all you might get is that he is really good at making up excuses. This is not new imformation, nor is it valueable. (because you already know it.)

Remember also, I don't know everything. Our job is to get you to think about things, and give you ideas - new ways to look at this. You are there, and it looks to me like you have reasons to doubt him again. Be careful with those clues you get from watching him.

I think it's way to early to try to blow it wide open. You can probably learn as much from living with him for a month (if you can stand it) as you can from the phone bill. He won't be able to stay nice to you if he has an A going on in the wings, he will start treating you badly again soon.

Now, as one BS said here a few years ago -
"I can turn him down bedause I am angry, but then I would be angry and deprived. If I say yes, I am just angry."

This can apply to a lot of things right now. You can enjoy his return, and take what you can get from it both emotional and physically, or you can worry. Maybe both, but you can get some of your needs for companionship, and conversation met while he is there. BTW, I am not being suggestive, but you seem to like it that he wants contact - even if it's just a toe. Enjoy that - and lets say it's real, even if we don't know for sure.

Lets not have you file for D just yet. Not in court, and not emotionally. OK?

You can learn a lot by just being around him, but it will take a few weeks. Lets see what happens.

I don't post much on weekends - but will be checking in case you have major meltdown.

Enjoy your weekend - if you have to worry, then worry, but find some good too.

SS

PS, if I had time, I would comment a lot more on some things. Just for the record, I don't think you are a "B@#$%^Y controlling W". You asked me to trust you - OK, it's a deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/12/04 11:00 PM
One other thing -

If he does get defensive, or if he acuses you of ckeching up on him - you need to be ready with a comeback for him.

Takola on trust


This may help - get the concepts down, and use it if you need it. You can even practice what you will say, that really helps, I am not teasing you.

Anyway, you can make it about his having to earn trust, part of what you reuquire to stay with him.
If he does come unglued for any reason, hit him with the trust speech, and let him know you are waiting for him to give you reason to trust, and he has just blown one of his chances. (by whatever happened, or his anger or whatever) Then leave him alone to think about it.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/15/04 05:19 PM
I asked H about the phone number on Friday night. I had to do it. I think I had a good opportunity to do it.

First, I received a phone bill on Friday from a particular long distance company. We are not even customers of that company. (for $2.29) My name was spelled wrong on the bill as was the street name. I called the company, and they said that we have been customers as of 2002. ??!!! While I was talking to them, my H was irate in the background. "I'm calling a lawyer!!" He kept picking up the other phone to listen in, and then he would hang up. I kept hearing the clicking. He would then say to me, "there's no one on the line!" I'd say "relax, he's looking something up." Then, as I'm talking to this guy, my husband starts yelling in the background, "make him send you a letter!!" He must have told me that about 10 times. Ok, so now they reversed the charge and are sending us a letter saying that we owe nothing and we are not customers of theirs.

So, I pulled out our old phone bill to get the phone number of our current company so I could call them to make sure that we are still customers of theirs. I thought it was a good opportunity to say, "Oh,BTW H, I saw this phone number from the calling card on the bill and I forgot to ask you about this before. Who's # is this, did you call this #?"

He got SUPER defensive. He pretty much flew off the handle. "I guess I called that number. I called a ton of numbers for work while I was away! I don't know know who's it is. Do you know how many phone #s I have? I'd have to look it up." He walked away while he was saying this. I followed him and said "It was a number in philadelphia, for an hour - you don't remember?" Him, "No!"

I have no choice now, I am DEFINITELY going to look up the owner of that number. I should be able to get a name, address, and age.

Then, as we were sitting down to dinner, I told him that I asked him only because I was concerned that it was from the calling card, and if he didn't make the call, I'd be worried that someone else was using our information to make calls. I was only checking because I was worried. He said, "OK." But he obviously made the call. If he hadn't made the call, he would have been irate about it. (see above about phone bill!)

He was then pleasant for the rest of the weekend.

Boy, I really need to stay on my ADs!

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/15/04 07:07 PM
SS,

I wanted to reply to a previous post of yours.

If he is not a reader, he may not be able to bring himself to read it even though he may think it is a good idea. I don't know how much stock I would put in his reading, or not reading.

If nothing happens in a few days, perhaps you could ask him to read one section, or part of a section by (two or three days out) so that you could both discus it. Please don't let it just fade away.

I've been thinking about reading to him -section by section, little by little. We've done this in the past with another book, and I think he liked it.

It might be good, too, because then we can discuss it as we go along.

I think your H is not used to sharing his deepest feelings...I only get a small snapshot of things through this communication method that we use. What do you think? Has he ever been good at sharing his feelings?

You are exactly right. He does not share his feelings at all. He has never been good at sharing them. A part of me felt, or hoped, that his stories on his first night back were his ways of telling me his feelings. I mostly have to rely on his actions.

I was a little (ok a lot) bummed out about this on Friday. I was not feeling very positive about us. I was thinking that we might never have the M that I want, where we can openly share all of our thoughts and feelings. I would love to know what his feelings were over the past year -- and what they are now -- but I doubt he will ever share them with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

About his job -
Having his travel will not be good for your marriage. If this is going to happen, you will need lots of help to remain married to him. I say this because recovery takes time as it is, but it is so much more difficult when one of the parties is not there.

You already know all the reasons - maybe Jen will have suggestions for what to do about this.


Yeah, I've thought a lot about this. Jennifer doesn't know about his potential future travelling, but she made a comment about his current schedule - where we have different days off. She said that she doesn't like it and that it has to change. I can imagine what she'd say about him being away 6 weeks at a time!

I'm starting to worry a little about his desire to travel. If he will be away 6 weeks at a time, he probably feels that it would be more convenient to stay married to me so that he will have someone at home to take care of everything while he's away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm starting to wonder if that's the only reason he wants to "work on" our M.

Again, time will tell for sure. I hope, as we go through the MB concepts, I will have an opportunity to bring up the travelling - that it's not going to be good for our M. If he still insists on going, then mmmmmmmmm that's not a good sign.

Not made of money - hmmm, you sound like your parents now.I'm teasing, I'm teasing, don't take it personal.

Are you kidding? Don't take it personal? I busted out laughing when I read that! But remember, my parents wouldn't ever have said that to me - my mom thinks I'm perfect.

Men and women often react to stress differently. she would understand him well, having lived with him for a long time. I wonder if she would talk to you about HIM, and give you pointers. Are you good friends with her?

I'm sure she would talk to me about him. We've done it before. I feel like we're pretty good friends. She has told me in the past - a long time ago, that I could always call her or write to her about H. (Like I've mentioned before somewhere, she KNOWS how difficult my H can be) I don't talk to her very often, though, and with all that my H has told her, I'd feel a little uncomfortable. Maybe at some point I will do this. I've been thinking about writing her a letter, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I would also hate to put her in the middle of this. Also, I don't know if my H would like the idea if he found out.

If he says disrespectful things please call him on it. He can be retrained, don't let him get away with his old way of doing things.

I am trying to do this. He made a comment about my trip to Chicago. (Did I mention I'm going to Chicago for Thanksgiving? I am going by myself. H and I already discussed this. He is OK with it because he has to work all weekend anyway. Plus he says he could care less about Thanksgiving) One of my flights leaves at 6:30 in the morning. He made it obvious that it was a stupid idea. Later on, I told him that it bothered me what he said. I didn't think it was a stupid idea. It doesn't bother me to leave that early, and I thought it was a good idea. I saved a ton of $$$ by taking that flight. He said, "ok, but I wouldn't do it." "Yeah, well, that's you - I am not you."

I should have said something about my conversation with the phone company -- the way he would constantly pick up the phone and hang up, and scream in the background. Grrrr! I was too focused on other things, though. Like getting the problem straightened out, and finding out about that phone #.

I'm working on this, though.

<small>[ November 15, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/19/04 11:37 PM
A couple of things come to mind.

First, recovery works better if both can agree to a plan. I am not sure what form your talks with him have been like. I believe from past history that you are careful in the way you talk to him. Sometimes I wonder if it would be good to bring things to conflict - not find a soft way to talk.

Then if/when he gets angry, you can point it out to him, and ask point blank "why would I want to stay with someone that treats me like this? I would like to work on our marriage, I am willing to work on my problems, but you need to be willing to work on yours. If you are not, we won't be married for very much longer. I am not going back to how it was before - "

In other words, continue to put him on notice every time he uses anger or DJ's to try to get his way. Notice I say "try to get his way." I hope you don't let him do things that you don't agree with. That is another way to have discussions. By subject when that subject comes up. I think reading to him is a good idea - it's even better than reading separatly, because you can discuss as you read.

Second - you have a great sense of humor - you made me laugh too.

Another poster told me that they are worried that your H is just playing for time. On the surface it is hard to tell. He did say and do lots of the right things when he came back, but a person usually doesn't get angry if asked about a phone number unless they have something to hide. The thanksgiving weekend talk doesn't look promising either. I would hate for my W to be away from me during a holiday, even if I had to work. I might be happy to let her visit her Mom, but I would make sure she knew I would miss her. I am not seeing that kind of discussion.


I have noticed that over time as I concentrate on one person, other posters tend to thin out - not sure if they think I do a good job, and they don't need to help, or a bad job, and they can't fix it anyway, but I wish others would continue to post to you. Maybe I need a haircut?

You have another week down now - how are you, what are you thinking?

When you go home, it will be a good chance to talk to you mom about what you are doing to save your marriage, and why you are doing it. The bottom line is that unless you know you have done everything you can, it would always bother you. Your mom needs to know that. I bet she hugs you and tells you she loves you.

Hope you are doing well, or better.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/22/04 07:25 PM
Well, I checked that phone # that H called. I got the name and address of some guy. Some guy that lives in the city. I don't recognize the name. It's someone that H has never mentioned. A round trip to this address would be approximately the right mileage that I've been finding on H's car. Is this where H has been going? I don't know.

I heard a conversation with H's sister last Thursday. I heard couple of disturbing things. First, he told her that I printed out some M information to read and put it in a binder with dividers, etc. He was laughing as he told her this. I don't know if it was because he thought it was stupid, or cute. Probably the former, though.

The binder has moved since then. I don't know if he actually read any of it, though. I did ask him at one point if he wanted me to read it to him and he said "no."

Then he told her that he thought I was worried about what he was planning on doing on his day off. He is still making me out to be the jealous wife. On Wednesday night, H did all of his laundry and started to iron. I asked him why he was doing it then instead of on his day off. (I was worried about what he was planning.) He told his sister that he "played stupid" and told me that he just wanted to relax on his day off. He told her that he was going to call me and ask me out to lunch. He said, "she'll figure it out then." He did call me, but I had a lunch meeting and couldn't make it.

According to my recording, he did go somewhere anyway on Thursday afternoon. He came home and did laundry (after he had done all of his laundry the night before) and showered before I got home. I didn't check his miles, though.

Yeah, not very good signs, right? He is still very sweet and affectionate, though, much more so than before plan B.

I am also pointing out to him most every time he says something negative to me. He is reacting pretty well to it.

I'm still not sure what to think. Maybe I am just a jealous wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

SS, I think I can tell you why posters have thinned out.

1. My posts are very looonnnng. As much as I try, I can't shorten them.

2. I think maybe most people are at a loss on what else to tell me. Really, what left is there to say? I did plan A, did plan B, and consulted with Jennifer - who told me to go back to plan A and introduce H to the MB concepts, and monitor H's actions. She said I can always go back to plan B later.

I'm sure at this point I am looking for moral support, a place to vent, and objective points of view. I worry that I come across as throwing myself a pity party, though. I hope not. I'm sure that would also scare many people away.

I thank you for your support, SS. I think you do a great job. But I can see where you might feel pressured to always reply to me. Please know that you don't have to, ok? I would miss your insight, advice, etc., but I would survive. And you know what? I will probably keep posting even if no one ever replies to me! It's therapeutic in itself!

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Orchid Re: I asked H to leave - 11/22/04 07:33 PM
Svb,

First of all: {{{mb hugz}}} 2 U! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now onto that disrespectful H of yours. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I would make some comments around him to head off his need to make you look bad to others. Remember he can make those comments and they could boomerang when others tell him he is being stupid for not appreciating you.

Here are a couple of examples:

Ex1:

He goes to his sister to gossip and twist something you said or did or didn't do. Before he does this, beat him to the punch. If you suspect he may go tattle tailing, ask him... 'you gonna twist this account and run to your sister?' First warn your SIL or support group of his tactic. If they are part of your support group, they can head off his stupid remarks and you have now disarmed, the dork.

Ex2:
BS: Hmmm....Let me see, SIL wanted to know if you were treating me nicely this past week..... I told here I would make a list...... geeze, this paper has been blank for ### days!


L.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/22/04 07:46 PM
Thanks Orchid!

I haven't talked to SIL at all yet about any of this. I've been dying to tell her MY side of the story so she can EXACTLY see what H is trying to do. She already knows that H has a temper and can be mean. She has already suggested to H that he see an IC (for being so uptight). I don't think she can completely discount what I say.

I'm getting more courage to do this.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 11/23/04 01:13 AM
Hi !
You sound good - I will comment on that later.

Well, I checked that phone # that H called. I got the name and address of some guy. Some guy that lives in the city. I don't recognize the name. It's someone that H has never mentioned. A round trip to this address would be approximately the right mileage that I've been finding on H's car. Is this where H has been going? I don't know.

There could be other things going on. I have no idea what - and it would probalby be dumb for me to speculate, but it could be some other activity that H doesn't want you to know about. However, there are still the condoms/wrappers - that was never explained at all.

I heard a conversation with H's sister last Thursday. I heard couple of disturbing things. First, he told her that I printed out some M information to read and put it in a binder with dividers, etc. He was laughing as he told her this. I don't know if it was because he thought it was stupid, or cute. Probably the former, though.

You know him, his mannerisims, his voice tones, his laugh. You probably have an idea of why he was laughing. Much more than we could have from reading your words here. This part makes me sad.

The binder has moved since then. I don't know if he actually read any of it, though. I did ask him at one point if he wanted me to read it to him and he said "no."

As we said before he returned, he can't keep acting forever (if he IS acting) and things will come out. If he doesn't want to learn about making your marriage better, that would indicate that your earlier fears were well founded.

I don't know of anyone - ANYONE - that loves their spouse, and wants to stay married that wouldn't work on it if it was brought to their attention that there were problems. Some would balk at counseling, some would talk a lot about it first, but I can't think of anyone that would ignore a plan B and just go back to "same old thing." I believe this is an indicator. Now, Jen is the expert with this, she will have better advice - this is my opinion.


Then he told her that he thought I was worried about what he was planning on doing on his day off. He is still making me out to be the jealous wife. On Wednesday night, H did all of his laundry and started to iron. I asked him why he was doing it then instead of on his day off. (I was worried about what he was planning.) He told his sister that he "played stupid" and told me that he just wanted to relax on his day off. He told her that he was going to call me and ask me out to lunch. He said, "she'll figure it out then." He did call me, but I had a lunch meeting and couldn't make it.

Ok, this is why many asked you to change the way you did things last spring. You tend to brodcast your fears to him, and if he is doing something wrong, he knows to be more careful. I know you don't want to do it this way, without being there, it's hard to tell you how to do it differently, and also, it is hard to change some things about ourselves. What it means, is that you care - that part is good, really good, but the effect - what he gets from it is not good. He doesn't get the part about you working on the marriage, he only gets that you don't trust him.

According to my recording, he did go somewhere anyway on Thursday afternoon. He came home and did laundry (after he had done all of his laundry the night before) and showered before I got home. I didn't check his miles, though.

Yeah, not very good signs, right? He is still very sweet and affectionate, though, much more so than before plan B.


His keeping things a secret from you, or not telling you when you ask is just plain wrong. If you were all over him for nothing, I can see some guys doing it on purpose just to tease you. I have a friend that would do that.

I don't see you doing things to that degree - and I see other things in his past that show you have reason to be worried, so I don't think this is a real reason. I wish you had checked his miles - but if he KNEW you were watching him, maybe it's just as well.

I think you should check the miles before you leave for Thanksgiving, and see what you get upon your return.

What do you do when someone you love mistrusts you? You do all that you can to bring back trust. He is not doing that at all. That is a big strike against him. Not only won't he help, he lies about whatever does go on. If he isn't willing to open his life to you, what do you really have? I mean, this is the guy you are married to, and he treats you like a stranger. Think about that for a minute.

I am also pointing out to him most every time he says something negative to me. He is reacting pretty well to it.

It sounds like you are doing it in a manner that he accepts then. I was not good at this part - and I had to read HNHN, and Love Busters more than once and retrain myself to do it in verbaly pleasing ways. I would bet you are better at it than I was (at first), most Gals are.

I'm still not sure what to think. Maybe I am just a jealous wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

There is no doubt in my mind that you are a jealous wife. However, you are not JUST a jealous wife. You have reasons for not trusting him. In this case, jealous is not a bad thing.

The only reasons I can think of for driving the miles he does and keeping it secret have to do with things like:
Crime
Affairs
Gambling
Drugs
other addictions
So, you have reason to worry.


Lets see, around birthdays, Christmas, wedding anniverseries, and Valentines day, it CAN have to do with secrets that are GOOD secrets - but that doesn't fit his pattern.

SS, I think I can tell you why posters have thinned out.

1. My posts are very looonnnng. As much as I try, I can't shorten them.

2. I think maybe most people are at a loss on what else to tell me. Really, what left is there to say? I did plan A, did plan B, and consulted with Jennifer - who told me to go back to plan A and introduce H to the MB concepts, and monitor H's actions. She said I can always go back to plan B later.


There is still a lot left to say - you still need support, and other voices can help you understand what is going on. As far as long posts - I have never felt your posts were long, and I enjoy reading what you write - I expect it is the same for anyone else here, but of course, this is just my opinion. And of course, as I reflect on it, with you being perfect and all, I am SURE no one thinks your posts are too long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm sure at this point I am looking for moral support, a place to vent, and objective points of view. I worry that I come across as throwing myself a pity party, though. I hope not. I'm sure that would also scare many people away.

I have never seen that in your posts. I see sadness sometimes, and hurt, and sometimes even a little fear, but I have never seen you throw a pity party. I also see bravery, courage, and endurance.

I know you try not to let the sadness come through - I sense that when I read, but it is sometimes there between the lines. I do feel the courage in your words. You don't know for sure what will happen, but you are doing all that you can. That is noble, and it is right, and I hope God blesses you for it. I am sure he will.

I don't know how many close friends you have where you are, and I can't remember you telling us about any, so I am doubly impressed that you maintain such a upbeat attitude in your posts even though you sometimes feel lonely, and doubtful. That is courage, and endurance, and you know I am telling the truth.

I thank you for your support, SS. I think you do a great job. But I can see where you might feel pressured to always reply to me. Please know that you don't have to, ok? I would miss your insight, advice, etc., but I would survive. And you know what? I will probably keep posting even if no one ever replies to me! It's therapeutic in itself!

You can't get rid of me that easily. (insert laughter)

I do feel some preasure to post - but it is an internal thing. I think this might explain it best. Luke 22:32

I am sure there are many reasons I post on MB, but one of them is that I want people to know that someone cares about them.

It is not a generic thing, I care about you personally, and want to see you succeed. Perhaps we will never meet this side of Heaven, but someday we will, and I will thank you for your example. Your very good example.

Of course, I have my own marriage, job, and family to look after, and I put them first. There are times when I would like to post, and I am not able to, which bothers me, but I can only do what I can do. Last week I was not feeling well, and I didn't do many posts at all, but I'll always do the best I can.

Sometimes, when things are not going well, there is much doubt, and our fears begin to take over our thoughts, we come to MB for help. I don't ever want you to come to MB and not get what you are looking for.

Now, after all that, I enjoy posting, and getting to know people. You have a wonderful personality, a good sense of humor, and you are smart and a hard worker. I hope your H doesn't blow it, he would look a long time before he would find again what he has in you.

Here's to happiness along the way. I hope you find things to brighten your days as you go along.

Smile, it's good for your face.

SS

<small>[ November 22, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/24/04 08:22 PM
SS, (warning: shocking info. listed below -
possibly opening a can of worms)

I'm sorry to hear that you weren't feeling well last week. I hope it wasn't serious and I hope you are feeling better.

You said some very nice things about me in your last post. Thank you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And about all of those things that you said -- my mom thinks so too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do feel some preasure to post - but it is an internal thing. I think this might explain it best. Luke 22:32

I am sure there are many reasons I post on MB, but one of them is that I want people to know that someone cares about them.


We are all lucky on this message board to have you posting here.

There could be other things going on. I have no idea what - and it would probalby be dumb for me to speculate, but it could be some other activity that H doesn't want you to know about. However, there are still the condoms/wrappers - that was never explained at all.

You don't want to know what I've been speculating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It would involve the condoms/wrappers, too. I'll give you a hint, though:

H is anal about his appearance.
H is better at decorating than I am.
H has no interest whatsoever in sports.

I know none of these things necessarily mean anything at all, but...
I can't help but wonder.

I'm also holding back a certain other piece of evidence that I've found. You talk about courage, but I haven't even been able to mention it here.
(Please don't think any less of me) It's pretty dreadful (to me), and kind of embarrassing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

OK, OK, I'll tell you - you've twisted my arm.

(whispering) I caught my H looking at gay porn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I found it months ago after I learned to check our computer's history. I confronted him about it -- I told him that I knew what he looked at (not how I knew) and I asked him outright if he was gay. He said, "NO!" He said he was just curious. I was very calm about it (tried to make it safe for him) and told him that I would love him no matter what he told me, but I still got a "no!" In my mind, though, I just can't let it go.

I bet you weren't expecting that, were you?
If I don't seem too distraught about it, please remember that I'm on Lexapro and I've had this on my mind for a few months now. It's as if nothing fazes me anymore. (pretty sad way to be) I haven't told my family or friends about this. Most of the time I keep shoving it out of my head - but it comes back every once in a while. If you think about it, it explains a lot. However, I keep thinking to myself that it can't be because of our SF pattern in the past is no indication (unless he's bi).

Anyway, I guess I've been trying to separate the issues.


What do you do when someone you love mistrusts you? You do all that you can to bring back trust. He is not doing that at all.

Yeah, he is not doing that because it is MY problem that I mistrust him, not HIS. (in his mind) Even though he KNOWS that he keeps secrets from and and he KNOWS that I KNOW that he keeps secrets from me! He has never admitted to any wrongdoing.

I think you should check the miles before you leave for Thanksgiving, and see what you get upon your return.

40,576 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

H and I had a really good night last night. Although he did grumble a little about me always leaving everything till the last minute (packing, etc.)

I leave after work for the airport. I don't think I'll be able to get to MB at all while I'm away. I'm going to try, though.

Have a great Thanksgiving.

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/28/04 05:38 PM
I just got home from my Thanksgiving trip. I had a great weekend with my family.

I was hoping that my H would be waiting for me with open arms. Nope. He's in bed -- still sleeping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am really disappointed right now. I feel like throwing in the towel. I only talked to my H once this weekend. That's only because I called him on Friday. I waited on Thursday to see if he would call to say "Happy Thanksgiving" to me and my family. He was off all day. The call never came. I was determined not to call him. I'm sure he would have told his sister that I only called to check up on him anyway.

I know he was out and about.

I think you should check the miles before you leave for Thanksgiving, and see what you get upon your return.

40,576


I just checked the miles on his car on my return.

40,758 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That's 182 miles! He was only off from work on Thursday. And on the days that he worked (Wed, Fri, and Sat - 12pm to 11pm each day) -- he only works 3 miles away!

I'm done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He's not sincere about working on our M and nothing is going to change. I was really hopeful for a while, though. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I can't go through this anymore.

I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

I've just installed spyware on the computer, too, because I've noticed that since H has been back home, he's been signing into his other AOL account every other day or so. When we first signed up with AOL (in 98) We created a joint account and an individual account for each of us. We gave each other our passwords. Since then, we have only used our joint account. I've forgotten his password, and I'm sure he's forgotten mine.

It's probably a waste of time at this point. Why bother?

I'm tempted to go to work tomorrow and turn in my two weeks notice. I can then pack up all my stuff and drive out to Chicago to start my life over - for the new year.

WHEW. I got it all out. But I don't feel any better. I brought this all upon myself for letting him come back home.
Posted By: Lady_In_Red Re: I asked H to leave - 11/28/04 11:52 PM
Dear svb -

Welcome back. Welcome home. I hope the visit with your family did you good. It's important to keep contact with your family when you are going through something like this. I hope you left with lots of hugs to warm your heart. I'm sorry you're unhappy with the way your H handled your being away, but that doesn't come as a big surprise.

I am concerned about you putting the spy software on the computer - mostly because I am betting that what you see will help explain his behaviour. I did not need to put software on our computer when H was involved in EA2 - he wasn't computer savvy enough to erase the history, and I was able to read his e-mails that way. However, I have since then, many times wished I could - and still sort of wonder whether I should. So far, I have not done so. But when I was spying on his e-mail account, it was the most difficult thing I ever had to do, and was excruciating to read their messages to each other. I felt possessed day in and day out to go to the computer and see what I would find out next to the point where I felt sick with fear. I entered a period in my life where it ruled my day. You have to be prepared in your own mind to handle whatever it is you find out.

I am concerned that you are still too willing to confront him instantly as soon as you find something which makes you suspicious. The spyware on the computer may turn up something even more unpleasant - confirmation of some kind or another. So try to talk yourself through your course of action depending on what you might find out. You may find yourself feeling very emotional and you could "blow your cover".

I found it very hurtful to read the things he was saying about me to his friends, and also to find out just how many friends he was actually talking to. It's hard to learn those things and then stay quiet about it. But you will NEED to stay in control of yourself, and build up your file of evidence. If you do end up divorcing, you want to know the real reason why.

I have always been concerned that he is doing something which you haven't been able to fully explain - the condoms, the miles, the washing clothes. Something is not quite right here.

As bad as this might turn out to be, it may get you closer to the truth. When you went to plan B before, I was always concerned that you still had no real answers as to whether or not he was involved in an affair - and he was perfectly willing to let you end the marriage and then carry on with his life, leaving you to wonder what really happened there. Maybe he IS playing with the idea of being gay - the phone call you traced went to a guy's house, as I recall - any chance you can find out who that number belongs to? But if that IS the case, you NEED to know - if he is having sex with men, he could be jeopardizing your health as well as his own.

I know you don't want to "go there", and I think you were very brave to voice your concern here. But you need to know. You have a right to know WHO you are married to.

Please be careful and don't confront him right away about anything you find out.

I think you are a lovely person. Do you have any friends you can confide in? Friends nearby who can support you through a crisis? I think it would be a good idea to work on your support network.

Take care,
LIR
Posted By: Miss M Re: I asked H to leave - 11/28/04 11:58 PM
svb,

re: the gay sites. I guessed it before you even said anything.

I would go ahead and spy. Just be wise as a snake and innocent as a dove. Just because you know, or find out info does NOT mean you have to share it.

If and when you find out anything, you do not have to tell H what you know. You have been pretty good at stepping back from all of this and doing what is best. Continue on in this. And don't feel bad. You are his wife and have a right to know whatever you feel you need to know.

Use the information to your advantage. Who knows what is up with all those miles on the car? I think you might find out soon enough. Just don't react and LB.

Sorry your H didn't call on Thanksgiving. I don't understand why you two can't spend this holiday together, it is so important that vacations, holiday's be spent together as a couple. Is there anything you can do to rectify this? Believe me, I know the consequences of not spending these times together.

Prayin for ya

Love in Christ,
Miss M
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 11/30/04 06:09 AM
Thank you, LIR and Miss M for your replies. I calmed down very much after I posted. By the time my H woke up, I was fine and dandy. You'll be happy to know that I didn't LB all over the place.

H gave me a long hug when he saw me. He asked me a lot about my weekend. I asked him, too, if he did anything special on Thanksgiving or over the weekend. I hope he didn't take it as if I was checking up on him -- but in normal relationships, nothing is wrong with asking these questions, right? He just tilted his head to the side and shrugged and made a face as if to say, "not really," but he didn't say a word. I didn't push it. I did tell him that I felt a little disappointed that he didn't call us to say, "happy thanksgiving." Again, he didn't say anything.

LIR,

I am concerned that you are still too willing to confront him instantly as soon as you find something which makes you suspicious. The spyware on the computer may turn up something even more unpleasant - confirmation of some kind or another. So try to talk yourself through your course of action depending on what you might find out. You may find yourself feeling very emotional and you could "blow your cover".

I am seriously, seriously, seriously hoping that I find some sort of confirmation on the computer. I know that it may be difficult to read some of his e-mails, but I imagine it will be like hearing some of his conversations with his sister. I've heard some difficult ones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Maybe he IS playing with the idea of being gay - the phone call you traced went to a guy's house, as I recall - any chance you can find out who that number belongs to?

I now have the name, address, and phone number of this fellow. I'm curious to drive by and see where this is. It's an apartment or condo address in the city. I'm not sure what other kind of info I can get on this guy. Any suggestions?

Do you have any friends you can confide in? Friends nearby who can support you through a crisis?

I do have one friend here that I confide in, about everything. She has kindly offered help, a place to stay, etc., if I need it. I am blessed to have her.

My friends and family back at home know about my current dilemma, but not about all of my fears. I don't know if I can tell them about the computer evidence that I've found. I guess I want to be sure, first.

Miss M,

re: the gay sites. I guessed it before you even said anything.

Just out of curiosity, what gave it away for you? His behavior? His attitude about his friends? His need for privacy? A combination of different things? What made you go "hmmmmm?" I think it might be helpful for me to know.

Sorry your H didn't call on Thanksgiving. I don't understand why you two can't spend this holiday together, it is so important that vacations, holiday's be spent together as a couple. Is there anything you can do to rectify this?

It's partly because he has to work most holidays, and partly because our families are so far away. We've had to compromise about which holidays we'd be spending together, and which apart. I am hoping that if we move back to Chicago together, we wouldn't have to worry about spending long weekends apart.

I am going to continue to spy. I will do my best not to confront him with anything new.

H is off from work today, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Lady_In_Red Re: I asked H to leave - 11/29/04 08:28 PM
Dear svb -

I'm glad to hear that you have calmed down now - and I did think that you will probably be able to keep your cool, since you have been "listening in" for quite some time now. It's just that once you find something, you do tend to not be able to sit with it for very long. I'm dreading what you might find on the computer, but like Miss M, I also think it is necessary and you have a right to know what it is he is keeping secret from you.

I don't know how to go about finding out more about someone, since you have the info on the owner of the phone number. Have you google searched him? Have you google-searched your husband's name for that matter - sometimes people post on blogs and you would be surprised how many people end up on other people's personal websites. I think people on this forum have mentioned paying for an investigator to provide information once they know the person's name, residence and phone no.

About the Thanksgiving call. We have friends who live in another country - the H is a native of that country, and they don't celebrate Thanksgiving there. Last year, the H had to visit us over Thanksgiving week, for business and he stayed with us. In the UK, I find it hard to celebrate Thanksgiving because Thursday is not a holiday - logistically it is too difficult, so last year, we did not celebrate Thanksgiving. (This year we did arrange something with friends for the Friday). Anyway - I knew this friend's wife was home alone, and that she doesn't have any family alive any more. I thought her H should call her, and I suggested it to him in a nice way. He just said - "Why?" and laughed - it was not important to him - just any other day - he is not American. I felt uncomfortable because I didn't want to make him feel guilty by calling her myself when he had just brushed me off. It would have seemed like a snub to him. So I didn't call her, and I still feel guilty that I didn't. He does love his wife, he just didn't think it was important. Clueless. This year they came to visit and I found out that she was indeed hurt and feeling very lonely and angry that he hadn't seen the importance of calling her, when he should have known it was important to her and made the effort. So I think maybe - your H is from Argentina? - maybe because he is not American, he doesn't feel the same sense of the importance of the day....just a thought.

Take care,
LIR
Posted By: Lady_In_Red Re: I asked H to leave - 11/29/04 08:31 PM
Dear svb -

I'm glad to hear that you have calmed down now - and I did think that you will probably be able to keep your cool, since you have been "listening in" for quite some time now. It's just that once you find something, you do tend to not be able to sit with it for very long. I'm dreading what you might find on the computer, but like Miss M, I also think it is necessary and you have a right to know what it is he is keeping secret from you.

I don't know how to go about finding out more about someone, since you have the info on the owner of the phone number. Have you google searched him? Have you google-searched your husband's name for that matter - sometimes people post on blogs and you would be surprised how many people end up on other people's personal websites. I think people on this forum have mentioned paying for an investigator to provide information once they know the person's name, residence and phone no.

About the Thanksgiving call. We have friends who live in another country - the H is a native of that country, and they don't celebrate Thanksgiving there. Last year, the H had to visit us over Thanksgiving week, for business and he stayed with us. In the UK, I find it hard to celebrate Thanksgiving because Thursday is not a holiday - logistically it is too difficult, so last year, we did not celebrate Thanksgiving. (This year we did arrange something with friends for the Friday). Anyway - I knew this friend's wife was home alone, and that she doesn't have any family alive any more. I thought her H should call her, and I suggested it to him in a nice way. He just said - "Why?" and laughed - it was not important to him - just any other day - he is not American. I felt uncomfortable because I didn't want to make him feel guilty by calling her myself when he had just brushed me off. It would have seemed like a snub to him. So I didn't call her, and I still feel guilty that I didn't. He does love his wife, he just didn't think it was important. Clueless. This year they came to visit and I found out that she was indeed hurt and feeling very lonely and angry that he hadn't seen the importance of calling her, when he should have known it was important to her and made the effort. So I think maybe - your H is from Argentina? - maybe because he is not American, he doesn't feel the same sense of the importance of the day....just a thought.

Also - about the computer - be careful to cover your own tracks on the computer. If your H starts trying to cover his own tracks on the computer by deleting websites he has visited, then he will be able to track your computer use and computer history, as well. You don't want him to find your postings here. Every website you visit leaves cookies on your computer - you can find your cookie file and look at what's in it, as well - sex sites leave lots of cookies. MarriageBuilders deposits cookies, and that's what allows you to stay logged in, unless you delete them after you have visited MB.

Take care,
LIR
Posted By: Harudah Re: I asked H to leave - 11/30/04 12:35 PM
hey SVB... I beleive in truth above all. I think I would have reacted the same way. How are you? I've been so busy, I didn't get time to read much, but know that I always check on you.. even when I do not post.. I read.. I'm alurker....

well.. I am glad you are on your way to the truth.. and I think his sister knows that he is bi or gay... and from what I can tell...yeah...HE is. He might not be willing to talk about it, but how do you feel about it?

uhmm big hugs*
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 12/01/04 04:54 PM
You have such good help - I am so happy to see it.

As usual, I have lots to say, but no time. I am not so worried about you, but I think it would be good to recap what we know, and also what we don't know.
(I'll be back later to talk about it.)

Glad you had a good holiday, I would like to know if you talked to your family about your marriage, and if so, what you told them, and what they said to you.


SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/01/04 07:46 PM
I haven't found any more information on my H.

He was off from work on Monday, but he didn't go anywhere. I've been checking the computer, but I haven't found anything there, either. He keeps looking up airfares from Buenos Aires to Cancun, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> When does he plan on telling me he wants to pay for his niece's honeymoon? I don't think that it's something he can hide from me.

I haven't heard him talk to his sister about our relationship, either.

LIR,

I've done a google search on my H and the other name. I haven't found anything.

Regarding my H's attitude towards Thanksgiving, you are correct. He doesn't care about Thanksgiving at all. That is why he didn't care that I left him alone for the holiday. I wonder maybe if I should shrug off that he didn't call.

Also, about covering my tracks on the computer, I clear out the computer's history when I sign off-line. I also delete the files and cookies. Even if I didn't do that, I'm pretty sure that my H doesn't know how to check the computer's history.
--much to my advantage.

Harudah,

I beleive in truth above all

You said it sister.

and I think his sister knows that he is bi or gay...

I think she could probably suspect it, but I kind of doubt that she knows for sure. He never mentioned anything to her about the time that I asked him if he were gay or bi -- yet he tells her that I accuse him of having an affair with another woman. If he is, then I think he's hiding it from her, too.

How do I feel about it? I really hope it's not true. I would be angry to say the LEAST.
I don't think I can even begin to explain how I feel.

SS,

I did talk to my mother and my brother - separately. I told them both that I want to be sure that I've done everything that I can before I give up on my M - especially since my H said that he's willing to work on our M. My brother didn't say much of anything. My mother understands and says that it's up to me - and she will support me -- but she doesn't think that there's much to save or that my H is working on anything -- particularly since he didn't even call all weekend. My brother even asked me if H had called. I said, "uh, no." I was embarrassed, because I know exactly how it looks. I feel like I have to make excuses - "well, he's busy working this weekend," etc., etc.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 12/03/04 10:15 PM
I have had the post window sitting open for about an hour, but keep getting interrupted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

My W is out of town tonight, so maybe I'll be able to spend some time with you after work.

That doesn't sound quite right - but everyone that knows me, knows what I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway, usually, Friday night is date night, but since she is gone, I will probably get some time to post.

That's better, isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


I hope to be able to do the post I was going to do ............last Friday.

I ought to come up with a witty saying to make me look better.

"I might be slow, but I'm old. "

No, that doesn't help, besides, I'm not that old.

"I might be dumb, but I'm not stupid......"

Not quite what I had in mind.

"Happy are those that dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."

That's a little better. Maybe we can discuss it later on.

All the best, and keep smiling.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 12/04/04 08:55 AM
Hi SVB1,
SS laughs to himself, as he wonders just what SVB1 means. Some of them I can figure out, some I can't. Not sure if this one is initials, or represents something from a memory.

Now, it is late here, but I have time. I don't have to do anything tomorrow but make sure the house is clean, and take the twins (daughters 11) Christmas shopping for their brothers. We might even see an afternoon movie if we have the time. So, being late, sometimes the tone of my posts change a little. I usually tell really bad jokes, and I sometimes let more of my personality and random thoughts through. Hope it doesn't bother you. Oh, just a minute, I have a half a candy bar left, I may as well get it and finish it off. Lindt - Swiss chocolate and whole hazelnuts - not too bad - and where were we?


From before you left for thanksgiving -

H and I had a really good night last night. Although he did grumble a little about me always leaving everything till the last minute (packing, etc.)

You know we don't know everything - not even close. It's hard to "see" everything from a few words across the net. (LIR is really good at it, I am learning.)

I was wondering what a really good night was in your mind. I have my own ideas, (for me personally) and they often involve physical intimacy. From things you have said I would guess he talked to you more, and was for the most part kind, and non judgmental. Please tell me what he did that made you happy - mostly I interested in how he treated you emotionally - and why you liked that evening. Perhaps by now you don't remember details. I wanted to do this post on Thanksgiving, but that didn't work at all. The next day my Dad went in the hospital, and had problems, and I never did get back all this last week, for which I am sorry.

Just so you know, I want to know if those happy times can be reproduced - if you can understand what was good about that evening, and can communicate it to him, it can happen again and again.


From after you got home:

I just got home from my Thanksgiving trip. I had a great weekend with my family.

I was really glad to read this - really glad. Wish it could have lasted longer in your heart before the let down.

I was hoping that my H would be waiting for me with open arms. Nope. He's in bed -- still sleeping.

Hey, this Lindt chocolate is really good - where's my water glass?

Oh............. sorry.

Not sure what time you got home. I tend to guard my sleep carefully. I find if I get run down, it is very difficult to recover. If I get plenty of sleep most nights, I can perform much better. Of course, one wonders. Was he up late looking at shocking stuff on the web? I am trying to put my self in your shoes, and see some of your concerns. If it was noon when you got back, it would be really bad that he wasn't up to greet you. At 3 am, I would probably be sleeping, but at 7 or 8 I would be waiting with open arms. LIR and I have discussed how differently Men, and Women can look at some things like this. Did you ever say anything to him? Or just let it go?


I am really disappointed right now. I feel like throwing in the towel. I only talked to my H once this weekend. That's only because I called him on Friday. I waited on Thursday to see if he would call to say "Happy Thanksgiving" to me and my family. He was off all day. The call never came. I was determined not to call him. I'm sure he would have told his sister that I only called to check up on him anyway.

This could be because he doesn't care, or because he is different than you. Once, I figured no news is good news. I was like him, and never called. Thought that if I didn't hear from W, it was because she was OK. Thought if I was OK, there was no need to talk to her.
Since I have learned about emotional needs, I call often, and I find it is enjoyable for both of us. It was a learned response for me though - thought you might find that interesting.

What was the Friday call about? Just to say HI? How did it go?


I know he was out and about.

.............182 miles! He was only off from work on Thursday. And on the days that he worked (Wed, Fri, and Sat - 12pm to 11pm each day) -- he only works 3 miles away!


That's one of the things we do know for sure. He leads a secret life, and won't tell you about it. For me, that is grounds for D all by itself. There are other mistresses besides women - none of them healthy for marriages.

I'm done. He's not sincere about working on our M and nothing is going to change. I was really hopeful for a while, though.
I can't go through this anymore.


I suppose this means I can stop, and just ask you when the D will be final - but somehow, I feel compelled to go on. Stop me if you have retained a lawyer already.

Now, I am gently teasing, but remember to only make these kinds of decisions after you have the same feelings consistently for weeks. Gently teasing, but your feelings are important, and I am not trying to say they are not valid. Sorry you have to go thorough such turmoil.

I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

He hasn't read any, and won't let you read it to him. He won't discuss it - correct?


I've just installed spyware on the computer, too, because I've noticed that since H has been back home, he's been signing into his other AOL account every other day or so. When we first signed up with AOL (in 98) We created a joint account and an individual account for each of us. We gave each other our passwords. Since then, we have only used our joint account. I've forgotten his password, and I'm sure he's forgotten mine.

It's probably a waste of time at this point. Why bother?



It's part of your quest to know the truth. I have to think it will help you know that whatever decision you come to will be correct. I think it's a good thing.

I'm tempted to go to work tomorrow and turn in my two weeks notice. I can then pack up all my stuff and drive out to Chicago to start my life over - for the new year.

Hey, will you bring me another one of these Lindt candy bars on your way to Chicago? I finished this one off already.
See, bad jokes, and I do it at the wrong time, when I should be serious. I should go to bed, but once I get going with the twins tomorrow, I'll never get back on MB.

WHEW. I got it all out. But I don't feel any better. I brought this all upon myself for letting him come back home.

No, you didn't bring any of this on your self. You still have to do all that you can, and you understand that, but it's hard some days. I haven't seen any thing about you actually GIVING two weeks notice, so I should go on?
Oh, what the heck, I'll go on.

He was off from work on Monday, but he didn't go anywhere. I've been checking the computer, but I haven't found anything there, either. He keeps looking up airfares from Buenos Aires to Cancun, though. When does he plan on telling me he wants to pay for his niece's honeymoon? I don't think that it's something he can hide from me.

Suggest that the wedding is coming up, and that you think _________ would make a good gift. Ask if you can purchase it and send it. (or will the two of you be attending the wedding, and were going to take it personally.) See what he says. You can be proactive, you don't have to wait on this one.

LIR.........................................Regarding my H's attitude towards Thanksgiving, you are correct. He doesn't care about Thanksgiving at all. That is why he didn't care that I left him alone for the holiday. I wonder maybe if I should shrug off that he didn't call.

These are the kinds of things that a couple should POJA. Find ways to make you happy. Find ways to make him happy. I would care about being left alone - Holiday or no Holiday. I may love my W, and encourage her to go if I couldn't go with her, but I would miss her lots.


Harudah,

I beleive in truth above all

You said it sister.

"and I think his sister knows that he is bi or gay... "

I think she could probably suspect it, but I kind of doubt that she knows for sure. He never mentioned anything to her about the time that I asked him if he were gay or bi -- yet he tells her that I accuse him of having an affair with another woman. If he is, then I think he's hiding it from her, too.


This is one of the things we don't know for sure - lets talk about that for a little bit, as long as I can stay awake. Hey, but If I stay awake long enough, LIR will be up, and she can critique my work..

Lets talk about what we do know, and what we don't know. Since it's late, my logic may be faulty, and I want you to correct me if needed. See, I did it already, It's early, not late. Good morning -

WE KNOW:
He's not honest about what he does, and where he goes.
He hides things
He blatantly lies.
He lies by omission - knows there is more to tell, but won't tell it.
Denies what you already know - makes up stories.
Looks at porn (only Gay porn?)

Won't go to counseling
Won't read MB materials
We know who the phone number belongs to - but not what that means.
He says he is interested in staying married
WHAT WE DON'T KNOW :

If he is gay.
Where he goes
What he does
If he is really interested in your marriage because his actions don't seem to back up his words.

My feeling is that you have enough to convict him of sexual involvement with someone by circumstantial evidence. I don't' have all of it in front of me, but you have it all in your mind.

I am sure (my mind being what it is right now) that I am leaving things out. Please feel free to discuss the list.


I did talk to my mother and my brother - separately. I told them both that I want to be sure that I've done everything that I can before I give up on my M - especially since my H said that he's willing to work on our M. My brother didn't say much of anything. My mother understands and says that it's up to me - and she will support me -- but she doesn't think that there's much to save or that my H is working on anything -- particularly since he didn't even call all weekend. My brother even asked me if H had called. I said, "uh, no." I was embarrassed, because I know exactly how it looks. I feel like I have to make excuses - "well, he's busy working this weekend," etc., etc.

There are many reasons for the lack of a call. Only a few years ago, I would not have made one either. I am glad you spoke to your family. They love you deeply, it is good to let them know what is going on without revealing specifics.

The things we know and don't know do not put him in a good light. You have more facts than I do, I would like to see you add to the list and discuss it.

I would like to know how you feel now about giving two weeks notice.

It has occurred to me that if you work a standard day, and he works until almost midnight, you would tend to grow apart from each other. There would be few shared evenings, few common interests on a day to day basis. Is there anything that can be done about this?

Probably time for bed. Will say a prayer for you - and continue often.

LIR, for you too.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/13/04 03:33 PM
Wow, I can't believe I've been away from MB for so long. I've lurked a little here and there, but there have been entire days when I haven't even looked at the site.

I guess I am just coasting along right now. I guess I have been at ease lately. I haven't found any more suspicious behavior from my H. I haven't caught any phone conversations. He hasn't taken any secret trips (that I'm aware of). I've been checking the spyware, too, and I haven't noticed any disturbing emails. I was able to get his password to his other screen name in AOL. It is a very non-gay password, too, BTW.

He's been very nice lately. We went to my Christmas party for work last Saturday night. I was a little stressed out about it. Last year, when it came time to RSVP for the Christmas party, my H outright said that he did not want to go. The year before that, he told me that he was going to go, until it was the night of the party- and I was already dressed to go. He said, "you don't mind going by yourself, do you? I'm not feeling too well." That was not the first time that my H had done that to me. So I was a little worried that he would pull that on me this year, but he didn't. We went and had a really great time. H laughed his butt off that night. I have some pretty crazy friends at work.

The only thing that worries me now, though, is that he is pushing me to go visit my family in Chicago for Christmas by myself. My H always has hard time getting time off from work for Christmas, but we have always managed to go together - even if it was after Christmas, before New Year's. But this year, he tells me that he can't go at all. I don't know what to think of it.

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/13/04 05:08 PM
SS,

How have you been? I hope your father is doing better.

You mentioned that you have twin daughters. That is very cool! Are they identical? Back when my H wanted kids, he REALLY wanted twins. I even found a family tree that he drew that listed all of his relatives that had twins. But from what I understand, that comes from the woman's side of the family, not the man's, right? There are no twins in my family. Not to mention that we probably won't ever have children, either. Oh well - it's probably for the best.

My initials are SVB. I know ... not too creative. I'm naturally not a very creative person, and I wasn't feeling particularly creative when I first joined MB, either.

I was wondering what a really good night was in your mind. I have my own ideas, (for me personally) and they often involve physical intimacy. From things you have said I would guess he talked to you more, and was for the most part kind, and non judgmental. Please tell me what he did that made you happy - mostly I interested in how he treated you emotionally - and why you liked that evening. Perhaps by now you don't remember details.

If I remember correctly, it was a Tuesday night. That means that we watched the Amazing Race on tv that night. That usually spurs us to talk a lot .. about the world, people, relationships, fond memories, etc. etc. It puts us both in our happy place - together. I felt like we really bonded on that night. I felt more emotionally connected to him that night.

As for H sleeping when I returned. He didn't get up till aroung 1:30 - 2pm. That's VERY late for him. I suspected that he went out the night before after work. That would explain some of the miles on his car. But of course, I don't know for sure. I didn't ask him about it except for, "I guess you had a late night last night?"
He didn't really say anything except that he was expecting that I would join him in bed when I got home since I got up so early that morning (4am).
Seems like different expectations and bad communication on both of our parts.

I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

"He hasn't read any, and won't let you read it to him. He won't discuss it - correct?"


Correct. The situation is still the same.

No, I haven't given my two weeks notice yet. I guess I was just venting. But the idea still crosses my mind every now and then.

These are the kinds of things that a couple should POJA. Find ways to make you happy. Find ways to make him happy. I would care about being left alone - Holiday or no Holiday. I may love my W, and encourage her to go if I couldn't go with her, but I would miss her lots.

Yeah, it looks like were going to go through this again. As I mentioned in my previous post, he says he can't go to Chicago for Christmas this year. I told him that I wasn't going to leave him alone for Christmas - it's not the same as Thanksgiving. He said that he didn't care. He told me that he doesn't want me to stay behind to see me mope. He said he would prefer to be alone.

WE KNOW:
He's not honest about what he does, and where he goes.
He hides things
He blatantly lies.
He lies by omission - knows there is more to tell, but won't tell it.
Denies what you already know - makes up stories.
Looks at porn (only Gay porn?)
Won't go to counseling
We know who the phone number belongs to - but not what that means. Won't read MB materials

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW :

If he is gay.
Where he goes
What he does
If he is really interested in your marriage because his actions don't seem to back up his words.

I think you've got it pretty much covered. I don't think I can add anything else. He looked at gay porn one time. On one other time he looked at both regular and gay porn. On this occasion it looked as if he just opened up a bunch of spam with porn links in them. I haven't caught him looking at anything since then.
Though I typed in "gay" in files to look up on my computer and it turned up a "gay webcam." The file was dated 2002. I won't lie and say that I'm not worried.

It has occurred to me that if you work a standard day, and he works until almost midnight, you would tend to grow apart from each other. There would be few shared evenings, few common interests on a day to day basis. Is there anything that can be done about this?

That's exactly what Jennifer said, too. She said she doesn't like the situation. Unfortunately, I can't see a resolution to this. If anything, it will get worse because of his plans to be away for 6 weeks at a time (if he gets the job that he wants.)

I'm still in turmoil.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Belonging to Nowhere Re: I asked H to leave - 12/13/04 05:12 PM
I'd say OK, pack my things and "leave" (i.e. stay (dark) and follow him wherever he goes (buy a wig <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) to finally find what's hapenning, if anything) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/14/04 01:57 PM
Belonging,

I hadn't thought of that! Or I could come home earlier than expected (without him knowing) and follow him around. Hmmmm. Something to think about.
Posted By: Belonging to Nowhere Re: I asked H to leave - 12/14/04 02:19 PM
I remember your first posts and my replies... you remember, you couldn't believe that I spent almost TWO years having doubts and it took me those two years to discover...?
When I think about that now, I would take days off and follow him DAYS if it takes to find out earlier...
So, you have an opportunity (before you decide to go without him, tell him you'd like to spend holidays with him much more than anything, if he insists on you leaving alone, something is fishy, could be nothing, but still you will know...
No, don't go and come earlier (might be late) but stays all days in the town and watch... you know better how that would be feasible...
I would do so, after that experience of mine, waiting, doubting and suspecting my own sanity...
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 12/14/04 10:04 PM
Wow, I can't believe I've been away from MB for so long. I've lurked a little here and there, but there have been entire days when I haven't even looked at the site.

This usually means one of three things -
1. You are doing well, feeling OK, and you don't feel like you want to come here.

2. You are buried with things to do, and so tired you can't make yourself come and type, it takes too much out of you.

3. You don't know what to do, you can't make a decision, and you don't want to talk about it, because you feel so lost. You really don't want to make a decision.


I guess I am just coasting along right now. I guess I have been at ease lately. I haven't found any more suspicious behavior from my H. I haven't caught any phone conversations. He hasn't taken any secret trips (that I'm aware of). I've been checking the spyware, too, and I haven't noticed any disturbing emails. I was able to get his password to his other screen name in AOL. It is a very non-gay password, too, BTW.

All these things are good. I worry that he will only take trips when you are out of town now. But, to be fair, if there are no mail, or phone call problems things could be getting better.


He's been very nice lately. We went to my Christmas party for work last Saturday night. I was a little stressed out about it. Last year, when it came time to RSVP for the Christmas party, my H outright said that he did not want to go. The year before that, he told me that he was going to go, until it was the night of the party- and I was already dressed to go. He said, "you don't mind going by yourself, do you? I'm not feeling too well."

It would be hard to trust someone who does this to you. Also - it is hard to love someone who does this to you. When you love someone, you support them in things like this.


That was not the first time that my H had done that to me. So I was a little worried that he would pull that on me this year, but he didn't. We went and had a really great time. H laughed his butt off that night. I have some pretty crazy friends at work.

It is sounding better. I am thinking that if he really intends to leave, he wouldn't go. If it's an act, it can't last more than a couple of months. (only my opinion of course)


The only thing that worries me now, though, is that he is pushing me to go visit my family in Chicago for Christmas by myself. My H always has hard time getting time off from work for Christmas, but we have always managed to go together - even if it was after Christmas, before New Year's. But this year, he tells me that he can't go at all. I don't know what to think of it.

You could offer to stay with him over Christmas. Families are great, but if my W couldn't go, I would stay with her, not go see my family. I wonder what he would say if you told him you will stay with him. How do you feel about making that kind of offer?

I have a hard time believing he couldn't take any time at all. I wonder what his supervisor would say about that?


SS, How have you been? I hope your father is doing better.

He is doing really well. Better than I had hoped. He's 75 now, and still cuts the grass, and pretty much does everything for he and mom still. I worry, but looks like it's not his time yet.


You mentioned that you have twin daughters. That is very cool! Are they identical?

No, not identical. About as different as I could imagine for twins. One is very talented in art, and is a homebody, one is very physical, and likes sports.

Back when my H wanted kids, he REALLY wanted twins. I even found a family tree that he drew that listed all of his relatives that had twins. But from what I understand, that comes from the woman's side of the family, not the man's, right? There are no twins in my family. Not to mention that we probably won't ever have children, either. Oh well - it's probably for the best.

Tell me about your feelings on children. From what I know about you, I would guess that you would have chosen to have some already if the choice was yours alone. However, the way you say "back when my H wanted to have kids........" I am wondering if this has had a bearing on the marriage relationship.

So, has this been a sore point with either one of you? Are you agreed about it the last year or two?


My initials are SVB. I know ... not too creative. I'm naturally not a very creative person, and I wasn't feeling particularly creative when I first joined MB, either.

Usually I make no mention of things like this, but late at night my posts are different. Daytime, I tend to stick more to business. I meant it all in fun, so don't worry about creative, or not creative. I was just curious - and to be fair, since I asked you, my name reflects the fact that I am still looking for knowledge, and wisdom. I need it too - just ask my W if you don't' believe me.

Notice too, that you seem to be apologizing for not being creative. Is this still a sign of his getting on you for everything you said, and did all this time?

I think you can use any name here that you want, I am happy with the way you do things. Please understand that I don't judge you, but only try to bring things to your mind. You are a very open, and honest person, that's the only reason I am able to help you. (It was the same for LIR, you two are a lot alike)


If I remember correctly, it was a Tuesday night. That means that we watched the Amazing Race on tv that night. That usually spurs us to talk a lot .. about the world, people, relationships, fond memories, etc. etc. It puts us both in our happy place - together. I felt like we really bonded on that night. I felt more emotionally connected to him that night.

He was more like when you first met him?
I had guessed this might be the case. For you, it is a really big thing, because it helped you calm your fears, and see he really can be what you need, and want. I wish I could see inside his mind a little more.


As for H sleeping when I returned. He didn't get up till around 1:30 - 2pm. That's VERY late for him. I suspected that he went out the night before after work. That would explain some of the miles on his car. But of course, I don't know for sure. I didn't ask him about it except for, "I guess you had a late night last night?"
He didn't really say anything except that he was expecting that I would join him in bed when I got home since I got up so early that morning (4am).
Seems like different expectations and bad communication on both of our parts.


On the rare times when I stay up all night for some reason (usually computer systems changes) I still can't sleep past nine, or ten. Oh, to be young again. I am still thinking about this one. Sometimes I resent something my W does, and I stay up late and read, a habit from my youth. If I had something like that on my mind, I may have missed greeting you also. I usually put things in terms I can understand, so it he could have had valid reasons. I still worry (as do you) that he did put the miles on the previous night, and is hiding something. The bright side is that he hoped you would join him - sounds like most men.


I think I'm going to ask him today how far he's gotten in reading Harley's material. I betcha he's going to hem and haw about it -- because he hasn't read any of it.

If he won't help with recovery, I am not sure what you could do. It is possible for you to gently teach him over time, but it would take a very loooooong time. You have been thinking about this, and it goes round and round in your head, but the choices and results are limited.

If you want a quick solution, it would be: He helps, or you leave. This would be active help, not passive help.

If you are willing to accept a slow one, it might work, but it will be years before you know. This could be passive help, where you train him by what you will accept, or not accept. This assumes he will stay, which you don't know yet.

He can be given boundaries to help him (and you) make a choice -
Go to counseling with me, and address this list, or I won't stay with you.

That could tell you want you want to know (can anything be done?) without the years of waiting.


"He hasn't read any, and won't let you read it to him. He won't discuss it - correct?"

Correct. The situation is still the same.


I can't imagine you trusting him, and because of that, loving him the way you want, unless he will help. I don't think you can go back to the way it was before, and I don't know if he can change. This leaves you in limbo. I think it's time to call Jen again. Maybe the first week of January, you may have more info by then. I am just thinking out loud, what do you think?

No, I haven't given my two weeks notice yet. I guess I was just venting. But the idea still crosses my mind every now and then.

You will feel the same for a couple of weeks straight, not just now and then.


I told him that I wasn't going to leave him alone for Christmas - it's not the same as Thanksgiving. He said that he didn't care. He told me that he doesn't want me to stay behind to see me mope. He said he would prefer to be alone.

Do you mope? Is this a valid observation on his part? If you stayed, would you be happy, and excited to be with him, and not worry about being away from your family?
I would like to know if he is making excuses, or if there is a history he is remembering, and he wants to make it easy on himself. If I could only go for a day, or two, I might feel better about staying home too. It is so difficult to travel like that for a short time.

How comfortable is he with your family? Can he laugh like he did at the company Christmas party?
It they have bad feelings about him (which they may right now,) him going to see them probably wouldn't help your marriage much.


Though I typed in "gay" in files to look up on my computer and it turned up a "gay webcam." The file was dated 2002. I won't lie and say that I'm not worried.

Not much you can do with this one without more information. I hate telling you that, because you have been so patient since last spring. OK, most of the time you have been patient. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"It has occurred to me that if you work a standard day, and he works until almost midnight, you would tend to grow apart from each other. There would be few shared evenings, few common interests on a day to day basis. Is there anything that can be done about this?"

That's exactly what Jennifer said, too. She said she doesn't like the situation. Unfortunately, I can't see a resolution to this. If anything, it will get worse because of his plans to be away for 6 weeks at a time (if he gets the job that he wants.)


This is a big thing. I agree with Dr Harley about love. I loved my W, and she loved me before we found MB, and started working on our M. It is very different now, in that I can't wait to see her in the evening, and she can't wait for me to come home. It's wasn't that way for quite a few years.

The four rules really work.
Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery
Lots of useful stuff in the whole thing, but the four rules are about halfway down. They have a header.

You don't have honesty, and you don't have time. I worry about how much you can do without those two.

I'm still in turmoil.

How is he from day to day? Is it the lack of honesty that keeps you away from him? I suppose I am trying to find a nice way to ask how he is treating you as far as saying things about your ability, and intelligence.


BTW, I want to tell you something that I told LIR once. If I ever say anything that hurts, It wasn't meant to be that way. I try to help you see all the sides, and look at things from different points of view, but I don't try to blame you or say things are your fault. I believe you are smart enough to pick useful ideas from this, but not worry if I bring up something that won't help.
OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 12/14/04 11:20 PM
Edited my last thread, had wrong link to four rules.

Am not doing much proofing this week, PLEASE forgive my errors.

SS

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/15/04 08:53 PM
Belonging,

Yeah, I do remember, now that you mention it. Two years, yikes, that's not good at all -- and I'm about half-way there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I guess I don't have to let it get to two years.
I could even leave before the two years are up!
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/15/04 09:17 PM
I have an update before I answer SS's post. It's not good.

H is not interested in SF anymore.

I asked H the other night if he noticed that we haven't had SF since I've been back from my Thanksgiving trip. (It's not that I haven't tried - he's always too tired) At first he didn't say anything so I asked again. He said, "yes." I said, "don't you miss it?" He said, "no." I asked, "why not?" He said "it's not the same as before." I asked him what he meant by that - that is when he got upset and said "I DON'T KNOW" Then he said that he didn't want to say anything else because I would "attack" him. It was the end of the conversation. I don't know what he means by "attack" him, because I don't think I do - other than ask him a lot of questions.

I tried to ask him calmly again last night what he meant. He said he doesn't know why he feels that way. I said it could be a number of reasons - he could be depressed, he might not love me still, or he could be interested in somebody else. Again, he said, "I don't know." I asked, "are you sure you're telling me everything? You're not holding back anything?" Again he said, "I DON'T KNOW." I told him that it hurts me that he feels that way. It makes me feel rejected and unloved. He said, "NOW YOU KNOW THE WAY THAT I FELT FOR NINE YEARS."

What do I do now? What does this mean for a guy?

BTW, other than this stuff. We had a normal night last night. We still talked and laughed, etc.

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/15/04 10:16 PM
Wow, I can't believe I've been away from MB for so long. I've lurked a little here and there, but there have been entire days when I haven't even looked at the site.

This usually means one of three things -

1. You are doing well, feeling OK, and you don't feel like you want to come here.

2. You are buried with things to do, and so tired you can't make yourself come and type, it takes too much out of you.

3. You don't know what to do, you can't make a decision, and you don't want to talk about it, because you feel so lost. You really don't want to make a decision.


I think it's #3 for me.

You could offer to stay with him over Christmas. Families are great, but if my W couldn't go, I would stay with her, not go see my family. I wonder what he would say if you told him you will stay with him. How do you feel about making that kind of offer?

I have a hard time believing he couldn't take any time at all. I wonder what his supervisor would say about that?


I have offered. He said that I should take the opportunity to go see my family and spend time with my nieces. He said that I should still be able to go visit my family even though he has to work. He reminded me that two of his sisters usually leave their husbands to spend time with their family for Christmas - because their husbands have to work.

Also, he said that he has no desire to celebrate Christmas. He works in retail, and he said that he is sick of it already. He doesn't want the house to be decorated, he doesn't want to exchange gifts, etc. etc.

Ba humbug

He also told me to call his supervisor if I don't believe him about getting time off for Christmas. He said his boss would let him go after the new year.

Do you mope? Is this a valid observation on his part? If you stayed, would you be happy, and excited to be with him, and not worry about being away from your family?
I would like to know if he is making excuses, or if there is a history he is remembering, and he wants to make it easy on himself. If I could only go for a day, or two, I might feel better about staying home too. It is so difficult to travel like that for a short time.

How comfortable is he with your family? Can he laugh like he did at the company Christmas party? It they have bad feelings about him (which they may right now,) him going to see them probably wouldn't help your marriage much


I guess it's possible that I could mope. I'd try not to, though. It's also possible that he might not really feel like travelling for such a short time. But also, though, I think he's concerned about my family. Last Christmas didn't go very well. H's niece and nephews were with us - visiting from Argentina- at my mom's house and my H treated me like dirt and his family like gold (my mother's words) and it was very obvious to my family. He might be uncomfortable about going back. He also has issues with my mother nowadays and I don't think that he wants to deal with her. I hear him complain about her to his sister all the time. He thinks that she is controlling and bitter and will ruin my life if I ever go back to Chicago.

Tell me about your feelings on children. From what I know about you, I would guess that you would have chosen to have some already if the choice was yours alone. However, the way you say "back when my H wanted to have kids........" I am wondering if this has had a bearing on the marriage relationship.

So, has this been a sore point with either one of you? Are you agreed about it the last year or two?


It has always been a sore point with us. Towards the beginning of our marriage, my H really wanted children. I didn't feel ready yet. I wanted to establish myself in a career first. I wanted to buy a house first, etc. etc. Then, about two years ago or so, I felt ready. I felt that I had established myself enough in my career and and it was time for a change. (I guess it was my age, too.) Well, at that point he said that he wasn't sure if he wanted kids anymore. Then last year I brought it up again and he said, "NO WAY." He said that he already put the issue of having children out of his mind and told me not to even bring up the topic again.

So, yes, very sore topic. We've never been on the same page about this. It could be because he's older than I am and he felt ready sooner? Now he says he's too old. I guess it just was never meant to be. Maybe I was selfish for wanting to establish a career first. He's called me a monster because of this. "What woman doesn't want kids?"

He was more like when you first met him? I had guessed this might be the case. For you, it is a really big thing, because it helped you calm your fears, and see he really can be what you need, and want.

That's exactly right.

I wish I could see inside his mind a little more.

You and me both!

If he won't help with recovery, I am not sure what you could do. It is possible for you to gently teach him over time, but it would take a very loooooong time. You have been thinking about this, and it goes round and round in your head, but the choices and results are limited.

If you want a quick solution, it would be: He helps, or you leave. This would be active help, not passive help.


Yeah, I still don't know what to do. I'm afraid to ask him again if he's still interested in working on our M, or if he's read any more of Harley's material.

I like the idea of the boundaries. Saying - this is what we are going to do - read the concepts, fill out the questionnaires, and talk to Jennifer. If not, I am leaving.

I'm wondering how I could bring that up.

And you're right, I think it might be time to call Jennifer again.

How is he from day to day? Is it the lack of honesty that keeps you away from him? I suppose I am trying to find a nice way to ask how he is treating you as far as saying things about your ability, and intelligence.

He has been better from day to day than in the past. I don't find too many occasions where I feel that I have to stand up for myself. I can't think of a recent example.

BTW, I want to tell you something that I told LIR once. If I ever say anything that hurts, It wasn't meant to be that way. I try to help you see all the sides, and look at things from different points of view, but I don't try to blame you or say things are your fault. I believe you are smart enough to pick useful ideas from this, but not worry if I bring up something that won't help. OK?

OK. I haven't felt any hurt and I really appreciate your help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/15/04 11:39 PM
OK, I just got home from work.

I failed to mention that H is off from work today. I checked his miles. Let's see. 40098 this morning. Now there are 41046. Do we even have to do the math? 48. What a surprise.

He's done laundry already and is freshly showered and watching tv on the couch - as happy as can be.

I can't help but feel unhappy right now. NOW I am moping. I'm sure it shows and he notices, but I can't help it. He might suspect that I suspect or checked his miles, but OH WELL.

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 12/17/04 03:58 PM
I had another conversation with my H last night.

You know I was debating whether I should ask him if he still wants to work on our M. Well I asked. He said, "What do YOU think?" I said, "I'm asking YOU." He said, "I don't know."

Here we go again.

I asked him if he would mind if I read the MB basic concepts to him. He said that he looked at it all already and that there is nothing new in there that we don't already know.

I asked him if he would consider talking to my counselor with me. He made a face and said that we already tried that.

I told him that I'm not happy because I don't think we're working on anything at all. It makes ME feel like leaving. He didn't say anything.

I asked him what made him unhappy this past year that made him want to leave our M. At first he said he didn't know. Then he said he felt tired, bored, and tired of being attacked all of the time. I said, "I haven't attacked you in a long time." (I still don't even know what he means by attacking him) He said, "You're attacking me now!"

I told him that I'd like to know what his most important emotional needs are, and I'd like him to know mine. I hunted down the EN questionnaire that I had filled out about 4 months ago and gave it to him (finally). I asked him if he'd read it. He told me to set it down and he'd read it later. Again, I told him that I'd like to know his needs, too. He said he doesn't even know what his are.

I asked him if he read about the love bank concept where we deposit points by meeting each others emotional needs and withdraw points if we make each other unhappy. He just made a face and made a comment to the effect of "yeah whatever."

I asked him, "why are you mocking this? It's important to me." "Are you sure you want to work on our M? I need to know because I need to make a decision" He screamed, "THEN MAKE A DECISION ALREADY! I DON'T EVEN CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO ME TOMORROW!"

Now these sound like the words of a depressed man to me. If that is the case, I would feel guilty about leaving him for Christmas. However, part of me believes that he is NOT depressed. Would a depressed man talk to his sister on the phone all excited about applying for a new position with his company where he gets to travel around the world six weeks at a time? Would a depressed man go to the gym? Would a depressed man be making plans to go visit his family in February and be buying all kinds of gifts to take?

Or is he still done with our M and is just stringing me along still?

I still don't know what to think.

<small>[ December 17, 2004, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 12/22/04 09:31 PM
Hi S,

You always leave me a lot to think about. I wish I had the time to do a proper reply, but I'll do the best I can.


Now these sound like the words of a depressed man to me. If that is the case, I would feel guilty about leaving him for Christmas. However, part of me believes that he is NOT depressed. Would a depressed man talk to his sister on the phone all excited about applying for a new position with his company where he gets to travel around the world six weeks at a time? Would a depressed man go to the gym? Would a depressed man be making plans to go visit his family in February and be buying all kinds of gifts to take?

We know he has a separate secret life. We know he STILL won't talk about it.

When I see depressed persons - it seems like they don't get excited about anything. They don't exercise (that is part of treatment programs in some instances) because they can't get up the energy, they don't respond normally to the stimuli of special events, and so on.

Now, I am not an expert, but relate what I have seen. What I think I see is that you are enforcing boundaries, he is trying to get around them. Isn't this his old behavior? Controlling you with anger to get you to leave him to his secrets while still having you around to keep house for him, and provide FS while he meets other needs elsewhere.

Or is he still done with our M and is just stringing me along still?

It sounds like he is.

If I was depressed, and someone offered me help, I think I would grab on to it with both hands.

I believe he quit counseling before, and refuses it now because he has no intention of looking inside, and changing. It looks like he is comfortable with how things are, and intends to keep them just the same as long as he can.

I still don't know what to think.

All the facts are there - all he will do, all he won't do.

By now, you realize you do have some faults. I know you think about that. This is not your fault though.

If a person loves someone, and wants their marriage to succeed, they find ways to work on the problems in their marriage. You are seeking solutions with all your heart. He is not. I see no effort from him to fix the problems. I do see continued disrespect, and dishonesty.

If he is claiming he is perfect, and you are the one with problems, then he is either insane, or dishonest. I believe one of these fits his pattern really well - I am sure it's not a mystery to you.

Now, this is a rotten post to do in the season of peace and joy. It's not the one I was wanting to do either, I would rather make you laugh.

I don't think you need more information at this point. For me, I wouldn't need to know the secret, it would be enough that there was one, and all the things you know about that secret point to cheating in one form or another. I don't think you are going to find out he is secretly taking classes to learn how to build pool tables, and they use condoms in the construction process.

I do recommend you talk to Jen again. She has lots more ideas for making things work than I do.

Please forgive me for being so sporadic in posting. I have been praying for you often.

Remember that the advice you get here doesn't have strings attached. Your mothers advice, your brothers advice, and for sure your H's comments all have some spin. There is nothing at stake here for me, except to see you living a happy and successful life.

God be with you, and may you still find a large measure of joy, and happiness this Christmas despite the pain you must feel at times.

SS

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 01/12/05 03:42 PM
Hello SS,

Happy New Year! I hope your holidays were wonderful with your family. I had a nice time in Chicago with my family. I came home by New Year's Eve to spend it with my H. He decided to go to sleep 7 minutes before the new year!

Since then it has been a little more pleasant at home. He has told me that he officially applied for the position to open up new stores. He said that we have a better chance of moving back to Chicago if he gets that job.

I think the main reason that he is more pleasant, though, is that he is officially going to visit his family in Argentina for a month in February. He is all excited about preparing to go.

I am still conflicted. While I was at home with my family, I was pretty much decided that it would be best to end our M. Now that I am home and it is more pleasant, I think that it would be easy to just play along and live in denial. I haven't come to MB in a while because I don't even want to think about these issues. I just want to forget about it all and pretend that none of this is/has happened.

Yeah, I think you're right, he is comfortable the way things are and will try to keep it this way as long as he can. I don't know if I can bring myself to do anything else about this. I am so weak.

BTW, I read your last post to my mother and she agrees with you 100%. She says you're very good.

I don't know how much more I'll be coming back here. I think I know what I need to do, but I can't bring myself around to do it. I can't make the final decision. All of you wonderful people are giving me advice, and I feel like I'm doing nothing. I don't think it's fair to anyone here to hear me vent about my situation, but yet I do nothing about it.

Thank you, SS, and everyone else for all of your advice and support. I might post again when I get my butt in gear and make a decision or have some other earth shattering update.

Take care,
svb1

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: Belonging to Nowhere Re: I asked H to leave - 01/12/05 03:51 PM
If you don't know what to do - don't do anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You can vent as much as you can if you ask me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In any way - my best wishes to you!
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 01/13/05 02:43 AM
Hey,
Please don't leave becaue you feel you are stuck.

Most of us, if not all of us, don't do everything we believe we should do. Most maybe, but not all.

I believe it has been good for you to vent, and I think it does a lot for your thought processes too.

I have almost come back and asked about you, but I thought you may want to be left alone for a while, and I guessed what you might be thinking.

In case you are wondering, I don't think bad of you......kind of like your mother. You may also notice that both of us do care what happens to you.

Please tell me more about your feelings on this. Why did you think it was over at home, and now you feel like continueing to work on it? Do you understand why you have those conflicting feelings? (I think you do understand, and you even covered it a little bit in your last post, but please talk a little more about it for me.)

Do you have a boundry? What I mean is, at some point, you would say "enough is enough," and if yes, what would that look like to you?

Please also tell me about your feelings about yourself. I would like to know more about your personal goals (what you feel comfortable talking about,) your dreams, your wishes, and how what you are doing at work, and at home fits with these dreams, and goals. I want to know where you want to be in 10 years, and what you think will help you get there.

As always, it's your thread, smile, and remember people love you, and care about you.

Are you warm enough these days?
Emotionally, are you warm enough?

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 01/17/05 09:35 PM
Hello SS,

I'm going to answer the first part of your last post for now. I'll answer the rest of your questions later. You're asking a lot of questions. You're making me think too much! No, that's ok. The tough questions need to be asked.

Please tell me more about your feelings on this. Why did you think it was over at home, and now you feel like continueing to work on it? Do you understand why you have those conflicting feelings? (I think you do understand, and you even covered it a little bit in your last post, but please talk a little more about it for me.)

Before I left for Christmas, I felt that my H had pulled back a lot. I was really disappointed that he didn't care to spend the holidays with me. Then, while I was at home, I had many discussions with my mother that weren't very positive about our R. By the time I left Chicago, I just kept thinking, "what's the point in continuing our R?"

But then when I returned, my H seemed to have changed again for the better. (well... except for New Year's Eve -- that was really strange) He was sharing more with me about his plans at work, etc. Even now, he is still more talkative, playful and affectionate. Of course, in the back of my mind, I wonder if it is because he is happy because he is going to be visiting his family soon -- and I am being very cooperative. (He is getting what he wants.) But it is so much more pleasant at home, I almost don't even care.

I've started reading Dr. Phil's book, "Life Strategies." (I'm actually reading it for the 2nd time - it's been a while since I read it for the 1st time.) Two of the problems he discusses in the first chapter really relate to me -- denial and inertia.

Denial -- "denial can take the form of totally failing to see what is, or seeing it, but resisting it, because you don't like it." In my case, I think I see it, but I don't like it.

inertia -- "paralysis caused by fear and denial."
Need I say any more? My mouth dropped open when I read that. I guess I don't want to believe what might actually be going on, and I'm terrified to find out the absolute truth. Thus, I drag my feet about following him, buying a GPS system, and sometimes I "forget" to set the recorder.

As long as things are pleasant at home, I go into my denial mode. That's where I am now. It makes me want to stay away from MB - because I don't want to be reminded of all of this.

Gotta go for now -- I'll post more later.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 01/20/05 04:30 PM
Do you have a boundry? What I mean is, at some point, you would say "enough is enough," and if yes, what would that look like to you?

I’ve been thinking a lot about this. I am wondering if I even have a boundary. I used to think that if my H ever hit me or cheated on me, I would be gone. Well, he’s definitely hit me, emotionally abused me, and most likely cheated on me, too, and yet I am still here.

Taken all together, it sounds horrible. I think I’m crazy for sticking around. But in my mind, I separate the issues. I think, “yes, he’s hit me, but that was 8 years ago and we went to counseling and he hasn’t done it anymore.” As for the emotional abuse, I think, “he’s not that bad, and we can both be re-trained to resolve that.” I am really working on standing up for myself – in a nice way. He seems to be responding well. As for the cheating, I’m stuck on that one.

I don’t know for sure if he’s been/being unfaithful to me. You have said:

I don't think you need more information at this point. For me, I wouldn't need to know the secret, it would be enough that there was one, and all the things you know about that secret point to cheating in one form or another. I don't think you are going to find out he is secretly taking classes to learn how to build pool tables, and they use condoms in the construction process.

I bounce back and forth in my mind about this. Sometimes I think that I don’t need any more information (like over the holidays). It is enough that he is disrespectful and is keeping secrets from me. Then I think that maybe I really NEED to know the truth. Like Lady in Red said, “But you will NEED to stay in control of yourself, and build up your file of evidence. If you do end up divorcing, you want to know the real reason why.”

I am really stuck on this point. Then, besides going back and forth in my mind about this, even when I think that I need more evidence, I STILL drag my feet in getting it.

Maybe I really am afraid to find out the real truth -- too painful. Especially if it does turn out that he is bi or gay. Also, maybe I am afraid to move on and be on my own – as tempting as it is sometimes. I’ve known my H for 15 years, and we’ve been married for 10. Maybe I am too comfortable, too.

So, have I answered the question about my boundary? Probably not. I suppose “enough is enough” will be if I find out definitely that he has been cheating on me and still lying. I don't think I would want to work on our M anymore at that point. OR if I hear another telephone conversation of his to one of his sisters saying that he is still “done” with our marriage and he is just waiting for … whatever.

But who knows.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 02/02/05 05:36 AM
Hi SVB1,

I have been working away from home - not ignoring you on purpose.

I want you to know how valueable you are. It's hard to explain, but I hope you undestand. Please don't be hard on yourself if you don't do anything. This forum does a number of things, and support is probably the most important.

If you get to the point where you no longer need support, then I would be happy to see you stay away. As long as you want to talk, feel free to talk, I am not here to judge you - and I am sorry if I sounded judgemental in past posts.

Please understand how important you are -
God loves all of his sheep.......every one of us. His work, his whole energy goes to helping us succeed. You qualify for help because you are you, not because of what you do, or don't do. Not because you are strong, or weak. (I think you are strong anyway, and I could use examples to show it.)

Please let us know how you are doing, and what your mom is saying these days. I hope H is treating you well.

SS
Posted By: Orchid Re: I asked H to leave - 02/02/05 07:36 AM
Svb,

Not meaning to detract you from SS's support. I have a question. How do you feel about yourself?

I ask this because.... well, should I wait for your answer first?

L.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 02/03/05 10:10 PM
Orchid, you are on the right track - but then, you usually are.

Ss
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 02/24/05 06:27 AM
Once again, I haven't been here in a while.
This has been for several reasons - I was sick for a week and didn't even have the strength to turn on the computer. (plus I really hurt my finger while I was sick, so it would have hurt to turn on the computer and type anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) I was also away for work for a week. And finally, I just couldn't bring myself to come here. I think I lurked only once during the past month.

Trust me, though, I've been pondering your questions throughout the whole time.

The main question has been "how do you feel about yourself?" I'm not really sure how to answer this question.

I have good and bad days. On the good days, I'm OK. On the bad days I can get pretty disgusted with myself. Today is a bad day. For instance, I'm upset with myself for having gained back all of the weight that I lost during the beginning of last year. As much as I try, I can't get back in control of my eating. There are also times on my bad days when I feel as if I have nothing to look forward to. I feel stuck. I am stuck in a bad marriage, stuck in a job that I'm unhappy with, and stuck in a city where I don't want to live. I also realize that I'll probably never have children. (This is probably for the best since I probably shouldn't have kids with this man - but I still can't help feeling sad.)

Please keep in mind that I don't feel this way all of the time. It's only on the bad days and today is a bad day. It is two years to the day that my father died. It is one year to the day that my H took his first secret trip (that I'm aware of) and lied to me about where he went. The next day was when I discovered one of his condoms was missing (I didn't think to count them that same day). I confronted him officially about the condom and an A the day after that. I am feeling a little like I'm re-living all of this stuff. I am thankful that my H is in Argentina right now because I don't think that I could look at his face right now.

OK, the pity party is over.

I'll post more later.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 02/23/05 08:38 PM
I did buy a GPS system for H's car. I'm going to play with it and get familiar with it while he is away. Then I'll use it to try to nab him when he gets back (March 13). I'm sure he'll take a special trip pretty much as soon as he returns. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 02/23/05 09:23 PM
Hi S,
It's nice to hear from you.

Once again, I haven't been here in a while.
We know. I tend to worry........ I shouldn't really, but I do. Maybe if I quit watching the news, it would be easier. Glad you are among the feeling, even if the feelings are sometimes hard to handle.


Sorry you were sick. How did you hurt your finger? Trying to get the top off from a kid proof pill bottle? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I probably shouldn't ask, you can skip it if you want.

I was also away for work for a week. And finally, I just couldn't bring myself to come here. I think I lurked only once during the past month.

I am sorry if I contributed to it being hard for you to come here. I find I wonder if the being sick means that your mind, and body have been under such stress that your immune system has a hard time coping.

Trust me, though, I've been pondering your questions throughout the whole time.
I hope you had more pleasant things to think about while you were sick. Things like "Should I have the strawberry ice cream, or the chocolate? Which one would make me feel the best?"

The main question has been "how do you feel about yourself?" I'm not really sure how to answer this question.

When you are not sure, you can say anything -
"I feel kind of purple, with pink spots. Sometimes I have gold stars around the top, and silver star dust."

I have good and bad days. On the good days, I'm OK. On the bad days I can get pretty disgusted with myself. Today is a bad day. For instance, I'm upset with myself for having gained back all of the weight that I lost during the beginning of last year. As much as I try, I can't get back in control of my eating.

Soooooo, you are like the rest of us. I'll see your few pounds, and raise you five. I'm upset with myself too, but I'll probably live with it. I may even change things, if I can get RID OF THE REST OF THE THINGS CAUSING ME STRESS, JUST LIKE YOU NEED TO DO.

I suppose you can't get rid of some of it, but maybe find ways to cope. Am I right about being sick? In years past, you were almost always healthy ? ?

I don't mean to say you shouldn't worry about your weight. Just remember to put things into perspective. I really believe you have had more important things on your mind. These are life, or death type things to our emotional self, so I would give your self a break, and go forward knowing you will do better this year.

There are also times on my bad days when I feel as if I have nothing to look forward to.
Ah Haaaa - I'm going to tell your mom not to cook for you any more. Not sure what she will say when I tell her you don't look forward to it now days.
Oh, wait - you were talking about other things. Sorry to get off track.

Really, most of the people here would understand exactly where you are coming from, and many, many are now in a much better place. I promise you can get there too.
Remember that there is the world you see on the news, but there is a whole n'other world where God still does his work. There are still smiles in your future, I know there are.

I feel stuck. I am stuck in a bad marriage, stuck in a job that I'm unhappy with, and stuck in a city where I don't want to live. I also realize that I'll probably never have children. (This is probably for the best since I probably shouldn't have kids with this man - but I still can't help feeling sad.)

We often don't realize as we go along, what the results of our decisions will look like. Some of these things are from your decisions. Some are from his, and some are the "luck of the draw." I can't change these things for you, and though God could, he most often does not. Usually, he teaches us what to do, and expects us to change our own world. This is NOT a punishment, but a blessing. Think on this........our abilities come from our overcoming the problems we face, and learning new skills, and new habits. By letting you cope, God is letting you grow.

Still, it is hard, isn't it.

You are not "stuck" in your marriage, or your job, and you may still have children. We don't really know. I hope when you pray, you talk to him about these things. I hope you tell him your feelings, your fears, and your hopes. I hope you ask him how to get through this, and to teach you what to do, how to do it. I assure you he cares, and will help, I know it.

Please keep in mind that I don't feel this way all of the time. It's only on the bad days and today is a bad day. It is two years to the day that my father died. It is one year to the day that my H took his first secret trip (that I'm aware of) and lied to me about where he went. The next day was when I discovered one of his condoms was missing (I didn't think to count them that same day). I confronted him officially about the condom and an A the day after that. I am feeling a little like I'm re-living all of this stuff.

There will always be triggers. I am so sorry it all comes down on you at once. Even as I type this, I realize you may be feeling better by the time read , but want you to know people care about you, and how you feel. Wish we could do more - hope this cheers you up.

I am thankful that my H is in Argentina right now because I don't think that I could look at his face right now.

How did the wedding present planning turn out? Did you find the courage to talk about it?

How come you didn't go with him?
I mean, we know how things have been going, but I would have thought you would have at least discussed it?

OK, the pity party is over.

Oh shoot, we were going to bring food ! I think Orchid has some new party games too !

I'll post more later.

It is really good to hear from you, and you are always welcome to vent. I am not going to ask a lot of questions (just these few that I already asked) because I want to hear how the last few months have gone, and what you are feeling now.

Remember, people care about you.

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 02/23/05 11:37 PM
Hi svb,

I don't think that I ever posted to you before, I haven't posted a lot in the past anyway.

I just wanted to tell you that I am soo sorry for your sitch and I can relate very well. I think, well really know that my H has had some kind of affair (EA or PA?). He will not admit to it and we have been going back and forth since June 2003. This long-term "denial" (yours and his- mine and his) and "inertia" is very tough to deal with...

I understand your ups and downs. I am at a down right now, but sometimes it is nice to go along with the pretending nothing's wrong skits that they play. It is like taking a breather, everybody has to rest sometimes, physically and emotionally.

I hope that you find your truth and then can make plans for your future based on what is real, and what you know. That will be a step in the right direction!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 02/24/05 12:19 AM
Hello SS,

I'm glad you replied. You made me laugh. Thanks.

Sorry you were sick. How did you hurt your finger? Trying to get the top off from a kid proof pill bottle? I probably shouldn't ask, you can skip it if you want.

OK, I'll tell you how I hurt my finger.. but keep in mind I was sick when I did this! I was coming down the stairs (I had a fever and I was dizzy) and I thought I was at the bottom... but I wasn't...I had about 2 stairs to go... I twisted my ankle and landed pretty hard on my knee... but that was nothing compared to my finger that got caught in the railing. The tip of my pointer finger got pinched/bent. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> It still hurts after 4 weeks, but nothing like that 1st week! It's amazing how much you take your fingers for granted. I couldn't use it at all -- and I kept bumping it into everything!

I am sorry if I contributed to it being hard for you to come here. I find I wonder if the being sick means that your mind, and body have been under such stress that your immune system has a hard time coping.

Don't worry, it wasn't you at all. As for being sick, I haven't been that sick in a long time. I can't remember the last time I was sick. I could barely walk 3 steps without getting wiped out (let alone walk down stairs!) I missed an entire week of work. At first I was told it was strep throat, but the test results came back negative. Then I was told that it was mono (!?), but then THAT test came back negative. I guess it was just a bad case of the flu. I guess it could be the stress -- combined with taking a commuter train into work full of sick people. I'm going to start wearing a mask and gloves everywhere I go.

On a positive note, my H took good care of me while I was sick. Maybe I SHOULD get sick more often. Hmmmm.

How did the wedding present planning turn out? Did you find the courage to talk about it? How come you didn't go with him? I mean, we know how things have been going, but I would have thought you would have at least discussed it?

How come I didn't go? I don't think he ever planned on me going. I know he was planning this trip for a few months and he never talked to his family as if I were going,too. When we started to talk about making his travel arrangements, he never specifically asked if I wanted to go, nor did I say anything. The most he said was, "How many vacation days do you have,-- two?" He's there for 4 1/2 weeks. To be honest, I didn't even feel like going this time around. I think I'd feel a little awkward around his family. Plus, those Argentinean mosquitos really love my American blood. I almost think I'd rather get sick and fall down the stairs again than get eaten alive by mosquitos. I don't know.

As for the wedding present, we never officially discussed it. I think he pretty much decided against paying for their honeymoon all by himself. He got upset with his niece. He told me that his niece and her fiance were planning on taking a trip together to Brazil. This kind of infuriated my H. He told me, "They're going to get married, they should be saving their $$$ for their wedding!" There's no way he'd want to pay for their honeymoon after that. Not only that, but I've talked to him since he's been in Argentina, and he's met this fiance. I don't think he likes him very much. Plus, remember that he doesn't know that I know that he was thinking about paying for their honeymoon AND we dont know exactly when the wedding is.

As for gaining weight, you are right -- there are worse things to have to worry about.

Really, most of the people here would understand exactly where you are coming from, and many, many are now in a much better place. I promise you can get there too. Remember that there is the world you see on the news, but there is a whole n'other world where God still does his work. There are still smiles in your future, I know there are.

I'll take your word for it.

There will always be triggers. I am so sorry it all comes down on you at once. Even as I type this, I realize you may be feeling better by the time read , but want you to know people care about you, and how you feel. Wish we could do more - hope this cheers you up.

Thanks for caring. I do feel cheered up. But I think I will be calling my mother now. I'm sure she's feeling a lot worse than I am right now. Hopefully, I'll still be ok later.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 02/24/05 12:37 AM
jls,

Thanks for your post. It does seem that we're going through a similar situation. And for almost a similar period of time. I'm so sorry that you are going through this as well and are at a down period.

I do know what you mean about the breather. I do feel like I'm taking a breather right now. Maybe I would go insane otherwise - with the constant worrying, hypervigilance, and mistrust. It feels ok to let go for a little while. But it doesn't resolve anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What do you plan to do? Sometimes I wonder if I can settle with living like this forever. I'm going to read up on your story - I'm not familiar with it. I think my breather might end when my H returns from Argentina and I start using the GPS system in his car. Of course, what will I do with the info I might find out? I don't know.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 02/24/05 12:38 AM
double post

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 02/24/05 12:39 AM
triple post

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: turtlehead Re: I asked H to leave - 02/25/05 06:12 AM
YES!! You got the GPS.

I am so glad to see you do this.
I don't think that you're going to like what you find, but at least you will KNOW.

Actually, you already know something is "not right", but the fact that you don't know anything definite makes it hard for you to decide whether to keep plugging away or decide that enough is enough.

I'm glad to see action.

I'm sorry you've been so ill, and now a hurt finger (does it throb until you lift it into the air?). When it rains it pours, doesn't it?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 02/25/05 09:37 PM
Hi S !!

OK, I'll tell you how I hurt my finger..

I can hardly wait!
I hope you don't think I am teasing you.


but keep in mind I was sick when I did this!

That always makes a difference. Sometimes the difference between teasing, and not teasing.
(SS tries to hold a straight face.)


I think I had the same thing you had, only I had it in November. It has really gotten around here this winter. Both W and I were so sick that we went to the doctor when we got it. Same test - but same reault. Dr said it was viral, just tough it out. You are better now? I hope?

Really, I wouldn't have teased you while you were sick. Really.

Did you see the doctor about the finger, it sounds like it was broken. I am sorry about the pain, I know what broken feels like. Not my finger though.


I guess it could be the stress -- combined with taking a commuter train into work full of sick people. I'm going to start wearing a mask and gloves everywhere I go.

I would guess the stress had a great deal to do with it. I hope you are taking care of yourself. I laughed when I read the part about the mask, and gloves. I'd like to see that, especaially if I had a camera that day. We could post it on the photo thread.

On a positive note, my H took good care of me while I was sick. Maybe I SHOULD get sick more often. Hmmmm.

This is good news. It's like if something happens, he responds, but otherwise, he lives a separate life. I wish I knew why. Why if he wanted children at one point, is he so against it now. I don't ask you every thing I think about, but I wonder about a lot of things. Much of it doesn't make sense to me.


How come I didn't go? I don't think he ever planned on me going. I know he was planning this trip for a few months and he never talked to his family as if I were going,too. When we started to talk about making his travel arrangements, he never specifically asked if I wanted to go, nor did I say anything. The most he said was, "How many vacation days do you have,-- two?" He's there for 4 1/2 weeks.

If my W couldn't go, I would make sure she knew she was wanted, and would be missed. He is more from a different culture, I don't know the differences like you do, but is this normal?

Did you ever speak up, and say you wished you could go?

S, you sit here, S's H, you sit over there. Face each other....now, S, what are your biggest concerns?

H, what do you think about her concerns?

H, now tell us your concerns.......

Sigh, one of these days.


To be honest, I didn't even feel like going this time around. I think I'd feel a little awkward around his family.

Beep, Beep, Beep -
This answer raises concerns. Oh, there are times when people fall in love, and the family disaproves, and the couple says "we can just live with out them then."

Was this one of these things?
If not, would you mind discussing it a little more with me? Is it the phone conversations you heard him have with his sister? It brings me back to Orchids question to you - "how do you feel about yourself?"

Now, I realize this trip was not something you could have taken 4 weeks off work to do, but if you could have done that, could you have gone, and held up your head, laughed, talked, and shown his family just how good you really are? I assume by now you speak spanish like a native?

Makes me wonder what you were doing there when you met him. Just curious though, it really doesn't have a bearing on what is happening now.

Plus, those Argentinean mosquitos really love my American blood. I almost think I'd rather get sick and fall down the stairs again than get eaten alive by mosquitos. I don't know.

Ah, the truth comes out. I have a neighboor that lived in Argentina a few years, and he says he once over heard two mosquitos talking about him. "Shall we eat him here, or take him home first? We better eat him here, if we take him home, the big ones will take him away from us."

I see you have really mixed feelings about going, even if you could have gone. I believe they are related to your feelings about him, more than anything.


Plus, remember that he doesn't know that I know that he was thinking about paying for their honeymoon AND we dont know exactly when the wedding is.

For some reason I thought he was going FOR the wedding. You never said that, but I kind of got that impression. This is just a visit for visit's sake. It makes me wonder..........I would suppse you wonder too.

As for gaining weight, you are right -- there are worse things to have to worry about.

I have faith that if and when things settle down, you can mannage this one. I know we all worry about it, but I bet I need to worry more than you. I still like myself most days.


I'll take your word for it. (that you will be happy again.)

There are many things that I don't KNOW, but that I strongly believe. One is the sun will come up tomorrow morning. Another is that you will be happy again. Not just "I can live with this" happy, but the happy that is in your dreams, but that you are afraid to think about lately. I really believe that.

You see, most people make their own luck. You didn't get where you are by avoiding work, and by hiding your light under a bushell. If you knew right now what God wanted you to do, and knew it 100%, you would do it with all your heart. Over time, you will know what to do, and I believe you will do whatever it takes, and do it well. I think your mother would agree with me on this.



Thanks for caring. I do feel cheered up. But I think I will be calling my mother now. I'm sure she's feeling a lot worse than I am right now. Hopefully, I'll still be ok later.

One of the problems with me writing is that I don't have time to reply as often as I would like to. I wanted to come back that night, and ask how your mother was, and how you were. I am sure by now you are doing better, and I tease a lot, but it's to help with the down feelings, not because I make light of you personally. I am sure you know this, but wanted to say it.

I would still like to know how your mother was when you called. Also how you are, and tell the truth - we do our best when we have the facts to work with.

SS thinks about how to say this....

And, I don't want the standard answer "I am feeling much better now." I'm half teasing, but the question is serious - OK?

Like Turtle head, I think you may be able to get some valueable imformation from the GPS. Realize it may tell you where he parked, but not where he went from the parking lot. If it is a residential area, it may still leave a lot of unanswered questions.

What kind of plans do you have for YOU while he is gone? Are you just taking it day by day? Going to visit your own parents? I hope you have a full social calendar while he is gone. If not, I'll send you a day by day list of what you need to be doing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/07/05 04:52 PM
Update...

H will be back on Sunday morning, the 13th. I have to pick him up at the airport. I'm not sure overall how I feel about this. Sometimes I miss him... and sometimes I have bad dreams/memories about him and I'm happy that he's gone.

I've checked out his car and found a perfect place for the GPS device. I can put it inside one of the back seats. I just have to take it for a test run before he gets back to see how well it works. I really have a feeling he'll be taking one of his special trips on his first or second day back. Well, during the first week, at least.

Yeah, I won't necessarily know exactly WHAT he's doing on his trips. I'll find out approximately WHERE he goes and parks and for exactly how long. Maybe then I can check out what's in the area - and possibly stake out the area on one of his days off to see if he shows up and where he goes after he parks. I really have a feeling it's not too far from where I work. Maybe one day I can confront him saying, "Some of us went out to lunch at work today. On the way back I saw your car. I saw the license plate. What were you doing in the city?" He wouldn't be able to deny it. But I'd be curious to see what he would say. If I don't like his answer, I could say "I've had enough of this" ... and leave.

OK, this is my fantasy, anyway.

On the other hand - on a more positive note, I've been in contact pretty often with my H - either by email or phone.

We had a pretty deep conversation (for us, anyway)last Wednesday. He was at his favorite sister's house. He was telling me about his concerns about his mother, etc. He also told me that HE WANTS TO GO TO IC! I think he and his sister must have been talking a lot - since she suggested this to him in the past. He suggested that we both see ICs. (different ones) He wants me to find a male counselor for him and make an appointment right away for when he returns!! OK, I'm being his secretary again, but I really don't mind doing this one.

Maybe we're getting somewhere.

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/07/05 09:53 PM
Hi SS,

I wanted to post again to answer some of your questions.

Dr said it was viral, just tough it out. You are better now? I hope? Really, I wouldn't have teased you while you were sick. Really. Did you see the doctor about the finger, it sounds like it was broken. I am sorry about the pain, I know what broken feels like. Not my finger though

Healthwise, I am very much better. Thank you. As for my finger, I never had it checked out. I had broken finger once when I was a kid. It swelled like crazy, turned all black & blue underneath, and I couldn't bend it. This time, it didn't swell very much, I could bend it most of the way, and it only turned a little black & blue. As best as I can recall, the pain was about the same. So I figured that it wasn't broken and it would have been a waste of time to get it checked out. Now, after 6 weeks, and I STILL have to be careful with my finger, I really wonder. Oh well, it's too late now to do anything about it. At least it's not crooked.

I wasn't going to go to the Dr. either when I was sick. I thought, "it's just the flu." But then after I had a fever 6 days straight, I thought, "maybe I better go."

I guess I don't like going to the Dr. I guess I take after my grandmother. She (no joke) literally chopped off the tip of her finger and never went to the doctor. Her finger healed just fine. Now does that make us tough, or crazy? So now you have a little more insight into my family. (this was my mother's mother, BTW)Shoot, look at the example that was set for me! How can I go the Dr for my little ol' sore finger!

This is good news. It's like if something happens, he responds, but otherwise, he lives a separate life. I wish I knew why. Why if he wanted children at one point, is he so against it now. I don't ask you every thing I think about, but I wonder about a lot of things. Much of it doesn't make sense to me.

You're supposed to be giving me all of the answers!

But seriously, a lot of it doesn't make much sense to me either. I wonder if he is just very confused (mid life crisis?) I pray that counseling will help him - even if things don't work out between us.

If my W couldn't go, I would make sure she knew she was wanted, and would be missed. He is more from a different culture, I don't know the differences like you do, but is this normal? Did you ever speak up, and say you wished you could go?

I don't know if there's much of a cultural difference in this. I don't know if it's normal. I never spoke up about wanting to go or not, I just secretly hoped that he would have wanted me to go. I am also getting a lot of flack for letting him go for such a long time. (from my mother and my friend/co-worker) Based on the fact that he didn't want to spend Thanksgiving or Christmas w/me and then he takes off for 4 1/2 weeks to spend time with his family. Not to mention all of the $$$ involved. I was told that if it were them, they wouldn't put up with it.

I don't even know how I feel about it. I suppose maybe I should be upset. I don't know. Am I being a doormat? He's down there with his family, and I am at home working, taking care of everything, and trying to figure out how he can spend all that he needs to spend for this trip while staying in our budget (I made a budget for us at the beginning of the year) and still save $$$. So basically, I'm at home trying to sacrifice and save $$$ so he can spend it!

To be honest, I didn't even feel like going this time around. I think I'd feel a little awkward around his family.

Beep, Beep, Beep - This answer raises concerns. Oh, there are times when people fall in love, and the family disaproves, and the couple says "we can just live with out them then." Was this one of these things? If not, would you mind discussing it a little more with me? Is it the phone conversations you heard him have with his sister? It brings me back to Orchids question to you - "how do you feel about yourself?"


Yeah, I'd feel awkward because I know that he's told most of his sisters, if not all, of our problems and his plans to leave me. And he's told his favorite sister even more intimite details of our situation. But if I went, I would have made the best of it.

I do speak Spanish. My mother is from Argentina as well. I didn't learn as a child (except for a few words and phrases) but in high school and college. I went to Argentina my junior year in college to study abroad. This is when I met him (briefly). He was in the process of getting paperwork together to study in the States. The rest is history.

I would still like to know how your mother was when you called. Also how you are, and tell the truth - we do our best when we have the facts to work with.

My mother was doing much better than I (or she) expected on that day. Thanks for asking. As for me, in general, I am just OK.

And finally

What kind of plans do you have for YOU while he is gone? Are you just taking it day by day? Going to visit your own parents? I hope you have a full social calendar while he is gone. If not, I'll send you a day by day list of what you need to be doing.

I'm taking things day by day. I have no special plans, unfortunately. It's much different now compared to my official plan B time. I had more energy and plans then, for some reason.

I'm curious to see what kind of list you would come up with of things I need to be doing! Bring it on!

OK, I'm done with my post. SS, you probably got much more info than you really needed. Thanks for reading.

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 03/08/05 02:24 AM
Hi svb,

Glad you are back. I bet you are having mixed feelings about the GPS. Please tell me how this works out for you, as I have been thinking of buying one (an aunt left me a little money, so I can finally do it if I want, but as I am a SAHM, that is also gonna' be my possible running money).

I know what you mean about the finger thing, I come from a family of STRONG SOUTHERN belles. It makes it hard to complain. Also if I have a hurt finger, my H automatically has a worse hurting hand! Know what I mean?!

I just want to reiterate that I feel so bad for you and can relate. I hope you find some ANSWERS, and I am sure that everyone here will help you deal with whatever they are.

((svb}}


jls
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 03/09/05 10:22 PM
Ok, now where were we before my DSL line went down? Off the east coast in a fishing boat?

No, that was probably WAT.

Oh, here we are?

H will be back on Sunday morning, the 13th. I have to pick him up at the airport. I'm not sure overall how I feel about this. Sometimes I miss him... and sometimes I have bad dreams/memories about him and I'm happy that he's gone.

This part sounds normal. They say you are done when you no longer miss him, and are relieved that you don't have to deal with him/his behavior.

I think the dreams can tell you something though, at least you can examine them and look at what they suggest and get some idea about how your mind puts 2+2 together when you are asleep.

Yeah, I won't necessarily know exactly WHAT he's doing on his trips. I'll find out approximately WHERE he goes and parks and for exactly how long. Maybe then I can check out what's in the area - and possibly stake out the area on one of his days off to see if he shows up and where he goes after he parks.

Keep in mind that:
1. He doesn't tell you that he goes places
2. He denies it when you bring it up, and if pinned down, he is vague, and tried to make you feel like you are crazy.

This is not someone that is putting their marriage, and their spouse first. If you do confront him, and he does the same, remember this behavior means something all by it self - regardless of what he is really doing.


I really have a feeling it's not too far from where I work. Maybe one day I can confront him saying, "Some of us went out to lunch at work today. On the way back I saw your car. I saw the license plate. What were you doing in the city?" He wouldn't be able to deny it. But I'd be curious to see what he would say. If I don't like his answer, I could say "I've had enough of this" ... and leave.

His answers are always half way believable. He is a smart man in some ways at least. You could not do this - you couldn't lie like that, and have it be believable. Not because it is beyond your ability, but because your heart wouldn't let you do it. It means something to me that he can do it without batting an eye. You don't get good at something without practice.

OK, this is my fantasy, anyway.

Consider what it means that he would not tell you, and that he would lie about it if you bring it up. Also think about some of the things you have been told in the past. Visiting friends and so on. If he was visiting a friend, there would be no reason in the world for him not to tell you about it.


That is, unless you have grilled him about every little thing all your married life. Then I could see him keeping his mouth shut so has not to play 20 questions every time you see him.

BTW, I can't see you being this way, until you started to have worries, then maybe you have watched him closer.


On the other hand - on a more positive note, I've been in contact pretty often with my H - either by email or phone.

How does this feel to you?

We had a pretty deep conversation (for us, anyway) last Wednesday........... He also told me that HE WANTS TO GO TO IC! ........... OK, I'm being his secretary again, but I really don't mind doing this one.

Maybe we're getting somewhere.


It could help. Will if he wants it to. People can change, and we hope he does.


I wanted to post again to answer some of your questions.


Healthwise, I am very much better. Thank you.

Your mom worries too much. I just thought I would help her out a little.

As for my finger, ............ I STILL have to be careful with my finger, I really wonder. Oh well, it's too late now to do anything about it. At least it's not crooked.

OK, time for the lecture about health.
Just kidding, you already know it, and you will do better next time, won't you?
Please?


I wasn't going to go to the Dr. either when I was sick. I thought, "it's just the flu." But then after I had a fever 6 days straight, I thought, "maybe I better go."

I guess I don't like going to the Dr. I guess I take after my grandmother. She (no joke) literally chopped off the tip of her finger and never went to the doctor. Her finger healed just fine. Now does that make us tough, or crazy?


I got (what you had, I think) in Nov., and I went to the Dr. The girl at the desk said "it has been too long since you were in, we have archived your records, so you are being treated as a new patient. Please fill out these forms, etc, etc."

My wife's rule is that if you miss work more than two days, you have to go to the DOC on the third day. I'd threaten you, but it wouldn't do any good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So now you have a little more insight into my family. (this was my mother's mother, BTW) Shoot, look at the example that was set for me! How can I go the Dr for my little ol' sore finger!

I think it was broken. I think you need to repent, and change your ways !
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
Mostly, I want you to be healthy, and not loose the use of important things like your finger. You must continue to do what you think best, but please consider my the two day rule in the future.


You're supposed to be giving me all of the answers!

But I'm a guy, remember. We are clueless - at least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Really, if you can think about the questions, it should help you know how you want to do things.


But seriously, a lot of it doesn't make much sense to me either. I wonder if he is just very confused (mid life crisis?) I pray that counseling will help him - even if things don't work out between us.

People who are "just very confused" don't hide things like he has done. They question themselves, and what they are doing. He was pretty sure of himself if I read the story the right way.
I admire your love for him, and the way you care. I wish he would show the same care and concern back to you. Let's see -


I don't know if there's much of a cultural difference in this. I don't know if it's normal. I never spoke up about wanting to go or not, I just secretly hoped that he would have wanted me to go. I am also getting a lot of flack for letting him go for such a long time. (from my mother and my friend/co-worker) Based on the fact that he didn't want to spend Thanksgiving or Christmas w/me and then he takes off for 4 1/2 weeks to spend time with his family.

Well, to be honest, this is a tell tale sign. He can't spare a few days at thanksgiving, but now has a month?

If it was really a life and death thing at work for those days, his mind would work differently. He would be saying "I am so sorry I can't go now, but we can go a week or something in Feb. when I am not so busy."

Notice that he did not do anything like that, and when he did get time off, he left your side for a month. I am not trying to give you "flack." This is a big thing to me, I believe it should be to you also. I love time with my family, but my W comes first.
We can't read his mind, and we don't know his reasons, but the behavior it's self is a sign that his heart is not in the marriage. It is a measure of how committed he is to you.

Not to mention all of the $$$ involved. I was told that if it were them, they wouldn't put up with it.

I don't even know how I feel about it. I suppose maybe I should be upset. I don't know. Am I being a doormat? He's down there with his family, and I am at home working, taking care of everything, and trying to figure out how he can spend all that he needs to spend for this trip while staying in our budget (I made a budget for us at the beginning of the year) and still save $$$. So basically, I'm at home trying to sacrifice and save $$$ so he can spend it!


I see marriage as a partnership. We can, and we do sacrifice for the other sometimes. A few years ago, my oldest brother called me up, and told me he was putting together a trip for my Dad to Alaska fishing. This is something Dad has always wanted to do. Older brother said he wanted all the brothers to go, as dad isn't getting any younger, and this was probably a one time thing. My W helped me do it, and supported me in going. It was only a 5 day trip though, not more than a month. Last year, my W wanted to do a trip with her mother to see her sister that lives a distance away. They wanted to drive and see the sights. She was gone ten days, and I supported her in going.

The thing is, do you feel supported, like you are supporting him? Perhaps he sees himself as giving support by letting you go for visits on Thanksgiving, and Christmas. I would imagine his expenses are higher, and his missing work makes it even worse. In other words, it probably doesn't balance very well. Your friends and family love you, and want to protect you, but you need to examine your feelings and see if you feel things are OK. I trust your feelings in this. If you are doing the sacrificing, and he is doing the spending, I wouldn't think it was the right kind of marriage partnership.


My mother was doing much better than I (or she) expected on that day. Thanks for asking. As for me, in general, I am just OK.

I am glad your mother is/was doing well. AS for you being just OK........

What would it take for you to be doing really well?

I DO NOT mean things like wealth, and fame. I don't think you would list then anyway, but wanted to be clear on the direction I was going. What changes would make the difference for you?

And finally

I'm taking things day by day. I have no special plans, unfortunately. It's much different now compared to my official plan B time. I had more energy and plans then, for some reason.

I'm curious to see what kind of list you would come up with of things I need to be doing! Bring it on!


I encourage you to make plans.

Not sure if your girlfriend at work is married, and what kind of time she has, but spending an evening with her OUT would be on the list if it would work.

Since time is short (the 13 !!! ) I will limit this to things you can do with almost no planning.
If you still had three weeks, I would probably do this different.

Read the bible.
I can tell you from personal experience that it will help. I promise you it will. Even a few minutes can be helpful, but a good hour will work wonders. Thumb through the pages, you'll find the right place to start.

Take a walk.
Again, a good hour will help get the kinks out, and give you enough time to think. I prefer seeing you walk somewhere where you don't have to worry about traffic, or bumping in to people (crowds.) It needs to be long enough for your mind to start to wander. Let it wander, it knows where to go.

Take a long hot bath.
If you have done it before, you know why I listed it. If not, I think it's about time to learn.

Visit the library
Walk up and down the rows. Some thoughts will strike you -
Take your time, no need to hurry. So many interesting things to learn, so little time. Pick something - light enough to be fun, serious enough to engage your mind.

Remember who you are
You are a daughter of God. Remember?
He made you to be happy, his work is to bring that happiness about. Sure we are tested. Yes, life is full of troubles, but his plan for you, is for you to find a fullness of joy. Don't be afraid to look for it.

There are more, but that's all my time, and you only have until Sunday anyway.

OK, I'm done with my post. SS, you probably got much more info than you really needed. Thanks for reading.

You are an interesting person. I have never felt bored here, nor have I felt you ever wasted my time. Your mother agrees with me.

SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/14/05 08:18 PM
Well, my H is back from his trip. I picked him up midday yesterday from the airport. He is being sweet as can be. He came bearing all kinds of gifts from him and his family.

Today he is off from work. He does not go back to work until tomorrow - just as I suspected.

I have the GPS system in the back seat of his car.

Jlseagull, the GPS device is amazing. I tested it last week. I put it in its hiding place and drove out to the bank one night. I later downloaded the info and PRESTO! I got a map of where I went and the route I took. I can also print out a report. It shows the starting address (approximately) and time. It also shows the ending address and time. It also shows the stops along the way.

I thought he would take one of his trips this afternoon. But he threw me off. He volunteered to drive me to work this morning. That involves driving 23.5 miles into the city in rush hour traffic. I suspect that he might have gone where he normally goes after he dropped me off. (I already suspect that he goes somewhere not far from my workplace). However, if he goes in the morning, that kind of rules out any theories that he might be going to a bar. He was also scruffy this morning. He didn't shave and just threw on some jogging pants and a t-shirt. Nothing I would imagine that he would wear for a secret rendezvous - unless they go to the gym together!

He did tell me that he was going to the gym today, but we have a gym in our apartment complex, so that's where I assume he goes.

So now I'm a little confused. Maybe I am just CRAZY and imagining all sorts of things.

ANYWAY, my GPS device should tell me where he went and for how long. If he went straight home, then that's just wonderful.

So here's my question. Should I remove the GPS device tonight and check out where he went? I wouldn't be able to download anything until tomorrow at work. I thought it was too risky to install the software on my home computer.
I was planning on leaving the device in the car all week, but I'm dying to find out where he went today. I will just have to leave tonight with his car to go to the store or somewhere and remove the device there. I wouldn't want him to catch me at home.

THEN, if tomorrow I find that he went somewhere, what do I do? Hold it in and then stake out the area on one of his other days off? Or should I confront him? I don't think I could confront him right away without letting him know about the GPS device. But I don't know how long I could hold this in.

I'd appreciate any advice on this.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 03/14/05 10:39 PM
Hi svb,

You will have to let me know what kind of GPS and where you got it and about how much you spent....

About confronting, *jumping up and screaming , "NOOOO, WAIT"..* DO NOT confront until you have all, and I mean ALL, your ducks in a row!!! That is my Not-So-Humble Opinion. THIS is the reason that I still do not know for sure about my H's A (although I do, he just won't admit). I confronted with the second digital recording from his car, and it was the first clear one!!! I am NOT a patient person, and not usually a CA, grab the bull by the horns, that's my motto! Well, svb, in this case, let the bull trap himself and avoid getting gored!!!!

IF he is doing something wrong (and it DOES sound very suspicious, although I don't know the whole story), you must, MUST, be patient. And boy do I know how hard this is. Fine, take it out and download it, if you must, but put it right back and DO NOT confront.

Did I say Do NOT confront? Was I clear about that??

jls
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I asked H to leave - 03/14/05 11:03 PM
svb1,

Hi, I'm new on your thread.

I think you need to keep your H in the dark as to your methods. He never has to know how you know. You don't have to prove anything to him.

I think it's a good thing to look at the "data" while he's not around. It might be upsetting, and you'll need a bit of time to calm yourself. It's a pity you have to take the thing out of service for a day just to download the data. Can you hide the SW on your home computer?

...yeah, I've got one too - a WS and one of those "thingies" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/15/05 08:25 PM
I left the GPS device in the car. I found out that after today, H will be working overnight for 1 week. That means he'll be free every day during the day. I figured I would just leave it in the car for the whole time -- although I am dying to find out where he went yesterday after he dropped me off.

I guess it's for the best right now anyway. At least I won't have to worry about breaking down and confronting him for another week yet. I'm safe for a while.

I do know that he definitely went somewhere yesterday. My trusted ole' voice activated recorder told me that he didn't get home until somewhere between 12 and 12:30. He left me at 8:30 in the morning. Then, when he got home, he started washing his clothes - but he already did all of his laundry the day before. He even washed his shoes yesterday, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

jls, I bought a LandAirSea 3100-INTB GPS device. It can be used either inside the vehicle or outside. I paid $295 at the time at this website - http://www.rockymountaintracking.com/
You can also find it, of course, at this website http://www.landairsea.com/products/3100.html, but it's more expensive. You might be able to do some research and find it even cheaper - through ebay, maybe.

AD, thanks for posting. I hope that I never have to let him know HOW I got my information. Or at least I hope that it never eventually slips out!
I know how much he'll push for proof if I ever have to confront him! I would love to put the software on my computer at home. I'm not that great with computers, (but better than H!) and I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to hide all of the icons or other traces of the software being installed.

And as for this...

...yeah, I've got one too - a WS and one of those "thingies"

I'm sorry that you find yourself in the same situation and having to have either one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 03/16/05 10:14 PM
I keep wondering about the GPS.

If it does show he is making long trips, and you bring it up, and he says something like "I was just visiting a friend from work."

What would that get you? He is very good at coming up with "reasons."

It would be nice to figure out how to word the conversation so that:

1. It doesn't sound like you are checking on him in the first place.

2. Your comment or question can't be evaded with generalities.

I am interrested to know how you feel about his homecoming.

Were you relieved to see him?

Happy?

Mixed feelings?

Afraid of what might happen?

I suppose husbands bearing gifts are always nice, but tell me about your feelings before he came home, and your feelings about being with him now that he is here.

I hope you are doing well personally. Lots of things in life can get to us, and you have had your share of rough times lately.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/17/05 11:06 PM
SS,

Let’s see, where do I even begin?

I am interrested to know how you feel about his homecoming.
Were you relieved to see him?
Mixed feelings?
Happy?
Afraid of what might happen?
…but tell me about your feelings before he came home, and your feelings about being with him now that he is here.

I definitely have mixed feelings about his homecoming.

I guess it’s like you said, “They say you are done when you no longer miss him, and are relieved that you don't have to deal with him/his behavior.” Maybe I am almost done with him?

This is what really makes me sad. The past year has really opened my eyes and changed me forever. I feel as if nothing will ever be the same again with us. I will never look at him again through the same eyes as I used to see him. Even though he is being very sweet right now – it just doesn’t feel right. He acts as if he really cares about me right now. He talks to me more and is more open. It should feel right, but it doesn’t. Maybe it’s just ME that is different. I guess I just don’t believe it in my heart. Plus, I am always waiting for that other shoe to drop when he behaves this way. Maybe I've lost hope?

It might be different if he had admitted to any wrongdoing. I could possibly forgive him and try to move on together. But the fact that he lied and keeps lying to me makes me wonder what kind of M we really have. I keep wondering how many of our 10 married years together has he been lying to me like this? At what point in our M did he turn away forever? Or has he always been like this?

I am really beginning to think that he never really loved me, at least not nearly as much as I have always loved him. I think that he settled when he married me. I think that I was a way for him to stay in this country and lead a half way decent life. Yeah, maybe he cared about me to a degree, but I was never his true love like he was mine.

Keep in mind that:
1. He doesn't tell you that he goes places
2. He denies it when you bring it up, and if pinned down, he is vague, and tried to make you feel like you are crazy. (and don’t forget that sometimes he gets REALLY angry, too)

This is not someone that is putting their marriage, and their spouse first. If you do confront him, and he does the same, remember this behavior means something all by it self - regardless of what he is really doing.

I don’t know if I can go on with him if I can’t trust him. Somehow, I don’t think he will ever change. I know he is planning on going to IC, but I really believe that it is for his own personal reasons – stress at work, family issues, etc. – and not with any intention of bettering our M. For his sake, yes, I am very happy that he is going. But he is still not interested in MC. He wants to continue to pretend that nothing is wrong. But I can’t keep pretending that everything is ok.

My #1 need is openness and honesty. I can’t imagine that I will ever get that from him 100%. He doesn’t even care that that’s my #1 need.

I think the GPS will just give me more proof of what I already know - that he keeps hiding something from me. At least I will have a better idea of where he goes. But maybe now it doesn’t matter what the secret is. (I think you said this to me before) Maybe the more important point is that he HAS a secret and keeps lying to me and that he will never tell me the truth.

The GPS results might help me decide for sure that I want to leave. I will then just need the courage to do it. I don’t think that plan Aing or plan Bing will do any good anymore. (or will it?) I also think that I have stayed in my M much longer than many would have. My friend here tells me that she would have been LONG gone. Maybe it’s time to move on. I still have my doubts about leaving my M – that marriages are supposed to be forever- but maybe I’ll just have to get over those doubts.

I would be very happy to find out that my GPS device tells me that he went straight home on Monday and went to our gym before getting home. My friend was suggesting that if that is what I find, maybe I can forget about spying on my H forever and move on with our lives together. She says that I am driving myself crazy. But I think we both know that the results will more likely be different. I’m thinking about downloading my GPS information on Saturday. I’ll take it out while my H is sleeping during the day and then come in to work to get the info.

You asked me,

What would it take for you to be doing really well?
I DO NOT mean things like wealth, and fame. I don't think you would list then anyway, but wanted to be clear on the direction I was going. What changes would make the difference for you?

I would really like for my H to be really truthful with me. I would love to learn that my H really loves me. That would make a difference for me.

<small>[ March 17, 2005, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 03/18/05 07:46 AM
Hi svb,

God, when i read your posts, I feel like I could have wrote them almost word for word!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I don’t know if I can go on with him if I can’t trust him. Somehow, I don’t think he will ever change. I know he is planning on going to IC, but I really believe that it is for his own personal reasons – stress at work, family issues, etc. – and not with any intention of bettering our M. For his sake, yes, I am very happy that he is going. But he is still not interested in MC. He wants to continue to pretend that nothing is wrong. But I can’t keep pretending that everything is ok.

My #1 need is openness and honesty. I can’t imagine that I will ever get that from him 100%. He doesn’t even care that that’s my #1 need.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is SO MUCH like me and H!!

He did go to IC, to placate me. I really don't think that he derived anything from it. Maybe a DJ, but that is what I think, from our conversations about it and knowing hi like i do.

I worry that you won't find out anything from the GPS. And then what?! Maybe you will feel better, i don't know. But, I have spied, and got no results at times. It helped some, but my non-trust in him came back, because of all the lies and such.


I really wish you all the best.

jls
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 03/18/05 07:47 AM
sorry,my bad, double post

<small>[ March 18, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: jlseagull ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/19/05 09:11 PM
Here's another update....

I am NOT CRAZY!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I just downloaded the information from the GPS device. It told me just what I suspected. My H dropped me off at work on Monday morning and drove to another part of the city and stayed there for 3 hours!!! Exactly where I thought I saw his car parked months ago when co-workers and I were driving back to work from a late lunch on one of his days off.

I repeat --- I am not crazy!!! I am not crazy!!! I know I should be upset, but somehow I feel relieved? Is that weird, or what? I really thought I might have been losing it when I thought I saw his car in the city that one time. I thought, "am I going to think that I see his car everywhere now?" I mean, what are the chances? There are MILLIONS of people in this city! But, it made sense to me, somehow. The miles to that spot are exactly correct. 48 miles round trip. And the first 3 letters of the license plate matched -- that was all I could see.

My gut has always been right.

I just can't help wondering, though, what is at that spot for him, and how long has he been going there? It could have been way longer than for the past year to year-and-a-half.

So what do I do now? I can possibly stake out that spot on one of his days off to see where he goes after he parks.

I can't, and won't, mention anything about this to my H yet. But it helps me to really consider leaving my H. I mean, how can he keep doing this? He is being super sweet to me, yet he keeps this secret! It makes me ill to think that he acted as if he were super-husband by driving me in to work on Monday morning "just because." He left out the REAL reason he wanted to come to the city. How can he be sweet to me and keep that secret from me?? Doesn't it eat him up inside? I know it would eat ME up inside-- I couldn't do it!
And what he's doing has got to be bad, otherwise he would tell me. There's a gym near the spot where he goes. There's a large apartment building (many, actually), and, not far, there's a bridge and stairs going down to a river with a walking/biking trail next to it. If he's going to the gym, or walking along the river, there's no need to hide that from me!

Would another plan B get him to tell me where he's going? He would just lie again --- like you said SS. I would much rather have him tell me the truth and then work on our M together, but I don't think that will ever happen. Maybe I should just leave. But what would I tell him? That I know that he's keeping a secret from me? That I know that he goes into the city? That I'm tired of the lies? And if he denies it say, "it doesn't matter what you say -- I know the truth." ???

I want to move back to Chicago, but I don't want to quit my job. I will if I have to, though. I'm thinking of talking to my boss and asking if I can transfer. Our main manufacturing facility is closer to Chicago, and a lot of my co-workers that I deal with regularly work there. I'm sure I can do my same job at that location. From there, I can easily go to Chicago to see my family on the weekends.

Hmmmmm. I have a lot to think about.

It felt really great getting this off my chest.
Thanks for reading.

I'd appreciate any input.

<small>[ March 19, 2005, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 03/20/05 06:20 AM
HEY,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I am NOT CRAZY!!!!!!

I just downloaded the information from the GPS device. It told me just what I suspected. My H dropped me off at work on Monday morning and drove to another part of the city and stayed there for 3 hours!!! Exactly where I thought I saw his car parked months ago when co-workers and I were driving back to work from a late lunch on one of his days off.

I repeat --- I am not crazy!!! I am not crazy!!! I know I should be upset, but somehow I feel relieved? Is that weird, or what? I really thought I might have been losing it when I thought I saw his car in the city that one time. I thought, "am I going to think that I see his car everywhere now?" I mean, what are the chances? There are MILLIONS of people in this city!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am so glad that you found out SOMETHING. And i really didn't think that you were crazy!! I don't blame you for feeling relieved. I am actually JEALOUS that you found something (doesn't that sound plain wrong).

Now, I wish i had some sage advice. I think that you will have to find out MORE, doesn't that suck?! What if you confronted, with a picture of his car there, then what? He would just make up some excuse, and you would be right back, well maybe at square two. You will need more info, I think, or you may still think (later) that you jumped the gun.

I know what you mean about actin like the great H while taking you to work, when he actually had an ulterior motive!

Good luck STILL (maybe a PI now, or stakeout by you and/or friends in diff. car)!!

I will check backwhen i get back from my trip on Wednesday.

jls
Posted By: Miss M Re: I asked H to leave - 03/20/05 07:07 AM
hon,

Since your H is not forthcoming with the information, kind of 'lying by omission', and if you have the money, perhaps now is the time to hire a PI. You have done a lot of the leg work, so it might not be as expensive in the case that you knew nothing. I think it should be fairly easy at this point to find out what is up, as you have done a lot of work yourself.

You could do a stake out, but you might get caught.

Don't make any major decisions about transfering/moving, etc, until you know the truth.

Isn't it nice to know you aren't crazy?

{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know you need them now.

God bless and good luck.

Love in Christ,
Miss M
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 03/21/05 10:29 PM
Hello S,

Let’s see, where do I even begin?

It hurts to read this one. Often I wish we could help more than we do. Also that you could get more replies when you hurt the most, and need someone to talk to. I hope you can talk to your friend, and your mother, and I hope you do.


I definitely have mixed feelings about his homecoming.

I guess it’s like you said, “They say you are done when you no longer miss him, and are relieved that you don't have to deal with him/his behavior.” Maybe I am almost done with him?


This is a question that I cannot answer. Once I told you what I thought about D. I think a great many people file all to soon, and get a D too easily. I also think there are some that wait too long, and prolong the agony.

It is difficult to know where YOU are. We sorrow for your pain - the pain you feel from not knowing, and also the pain and heart ache of not being able to share your heart with someone.

This is what really makes me sad. The past year has really opened my eyes and changed me forever. I feel as if nothing will ever be the same again with us. I will never look at him again through the same eyes as I used to see him. Even though he is being very sweet right now – it just doesn’t feel right. He acts as if he really cares about me right now. He talks to me more and is more open. It should feel right, but it doesn’t. Maybe it’s just ME that is different.

Again, it's something we would have a hard time knowing. He still keeps secrets. He acts loving, and talks more. Which is the real him?

Perhaps YOU have changed some also. I suppose it would be nearly impossible for you to have NOT changed. Kind of a lost innocence, I don't have the words to express my regrets for what has happened.

I guess I just don’t believe it in my heart. Plus, I am always waiting for that other shoe to drop when he behaves this way. Maybe I've lost hope?

With your feelings, it will be hard to recover even if he wants to make it work. I know it would be hard, but perhaps it is time to broach the subject of MC again?

"There have been so many things happen to us this last year, it has affected my feelings for you. I would like to see us work with a good MC to strengthen our marriage, and make it into what we both want from it. Would you be willing to do that with me?"

Something like that?

It might be different if he had admitted to any wrongdoing. I could possibly forgive him and try to move on together. But the fact that he lied and keeps lying to me makes me wonder what kind of M we really have. I keep wondering how many of our 10 married years together has he been lying to me like this? At what point in our M did he turn away forever? Or has he always been like this?

Again, it is hard to know from this end. I realize you are speaking more for yourself, from a heart that is sometimes breaking. I wish I had these answers, but I do believe you can get them from God. I have a request for you, you make think it odd. Will you read the book of Esther (0ld testment,) and come back and talk to me about some things?

I am really beginning to think that he never really loved me, at least not nearly as much as I have always loved him. I think that he settled when he married me. I think that I was a way for him to stay in this country and lead a half way decent life. Yeah, maybe he cared about me to a degree, but I was never his true love like he was mine.

This would be difficlut to cope with. I have prayed at length for you to be comforted, I hope you feel Gods's love. I tend to think early on he did have those feelings that you have for him. He wanted children with you..........that SEEMS to show he wanted the same kind of marriage you wanted. What concerns me is how did he get from there, to where he is now?


I don’t know if I can go on with him if I can’t trust him. Somehow, I don’t think he will ever change.

Where does he go? What does he do?
Wish you knew. I think that makes a lot of us that wished we knew. Personally, I couldn't go on with someone that I could not trust on such a basic level, with such important things.

I know he is planning on going to IC, but I really believe that it is for his own personal reasons – stress at work, family issues, etc. – and not with any intention of bettering our M. For his sake, yes, I am very happy that he is going. But he is still not interested in MC. He wants to continue to pretend that nothing is wrong. But I can’t keep pretending that everything is ok.

You say he is "still not interrested in MC." Have you already spoken to him about it in the last few months?

When you (or should I say IF?) talk to him about your feelings, what is saying?

I agree you can't pretend everything is OK when you know it is not OK. It will destroy your self esteem over time if you ignore the problem.
UNLESS - unless it is slowly getting better, and you can measure the improvement.


My #1 need is openness and honesty. I can’t imagine that I will ever get that from him 100%. He doesn’t even care that that’s my #1 need.

For a marriage to succeed, both must care about meeting the others needs. When you love someone, you care about their feelings, and their happiness. Even if it's difficult to change habits, you care, and you try.

I think the GPS will just give me more proof of what I already know - that he keeps hiding something from me. At least I will have a better idea of where he goes. But maybe now it doesn’t matter what the secret is. (I think you said this to me before) Maybe the more important point is that he HAS a secret and keeps lying to me and that he will never tell me the truth.

I did say it before. If a spouse keeps secrets, does it matter what the secret is? Or is it just as telling that the secrets exist in the first place? LIR said once that she wanted you to KNOW, but I don't see how you can, unless you install a camera in the location he visits and record all that he does. If was another girl, and you could watch them walking down the street holding hands, you would know, but if it is what you think it may be, he can just continue to say he visits friends from work, and you wouldn't know the truth. Soneone (here on MB) once said that "people only keep secrets if they have something to hide."

I tend to agree with that.

The GPS results might help me decide for sure that I want to leave. I will then just need the courage to do it. I don’t think that plan Aing or plan Bing will do any good anymore. (or will it?)

I still think you should call (MB) for another appointment. This is one of the steps you will need to take in any case for your peace of mind.

To address your other comment - it will take a great deal of courage. I believe you have whatever it takes.

I also think that I have stayed in my M much longer than many would have. My friend here tells me that she would have been LONG gone. Maybe it’s time to move on. I still have my doubts about leaving my M – that marriages are supposed to be forever- but maybe I’ll just have to get over those doubts.

It is easy for both your friend, and I to say "I would never stand for this, I would get a D." The bottom line is that we are not living what you are living, and talk is cheap.

Marriages ARE supposed to be forever. Love is supposed to be forever, committment is supposed to be forever. So is honesty, faithfulness, and trust. It is hard to have the marriage be forever, without the honesty going on with it. How can it?

I would love to learn that my H really loves me. That would make a difference for me.

How would you measure that? Describe his actions that would communitate this to you.

Here's another update....

I am NOT CRAZY!!!!!!

We never thought you were. Did you? If so, I need to talk to your mom again, and she needs to beat you more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


My gut has always been right.

We believed you since you first came here, but we realized that most WS's don't come clean when the BS relates gut feelings witn no proof. IN the case of your H, he hasn't been willing to come clean even with proof. That bothers me. (massive understatement.)

I just can't help wondering, though, what is at that spot for him, and how long has he been going there? It could have been way longer than for the past year to year-and-a-half.

As has been said, you could hire a PI.

So what do I do now? I can possibly stake out that spot on one of his days off to see where he goes after he parks.

Even if you see where he goes to, if it is an apartment, and a guy lives there, you won't be sure. On the other hand, if it is a gym, or a wine store or something, you would be relieved. But, why would he hide somethig that was innocent?

It makes me ill to think that he acted as if he were super-husband by driving me in to work on Monday morning "just because." He left out the REAL reason he wanted to come to the city. How can he be sweet to me and keep that secret from me?? Doesn't it eat him up inside? I know it would eat ME up inside-- I couldn't do it!

It worries me that he can ACT so nice, and be hiding things. Especially when you say he gets angry sometimes. Is he the type that can compartmentalize things so well that he can actually care for you the same time he is doing other thing to hurt you? Do you have enough of a track record to know?

For the record, I don't think I could do it either, I know you couldn't. (Your mom told me so herself.)

And what he's doing has got to be bad, otherwise he would tell me.

Agreed.

Would another plan B get him to tell me where he's going? He would just lie again --- like you said SS. I would much rather have him tell me the truth and then work on our M together, but I don't think that will ever happen.

By now, you would be tired of wondering. It is natural.
I wonder why he is nice to you. Is he biding his time until he has his ducks in a row? Is he really trying to make the marriage better. Did your plan B scare him and make him realize he loves you? Or did he get scared you would leave before he is ready? I have no answer. There is only one place you can get a sure answer to this one.

Maybe I should just leave. But what would I tell him? That I know that he's keeping a secret from me? That I know that he goes into the city? That I'm tired of the lies? And if he denies it say, "it doesn't matter what you say -- I know the truth." ???

I don't know if I ought to make suggestions for this one of not. If knowing what to tell HIM is a problem, you are not ready to quit yet.
Um, that's a personal judgement - and I am not a pro. I'll leave it for now though.


Hmmmmm. I have a lot to think about.

You still have time. This isn't something that should be rushed.

It felt really great getting this off my chest.

You have been keeping a lot in. I hope you are doing better now than when you were writing your post. I could tell it was hard for you.


I'd appreciate any input.

I really like mexican food, in fact, I like almost everything.

Oh, wait. You meant input about your situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Laugh, see if it helps.

Read that reference, and come back and talk some more.

SS

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/22/05 07:10 PM
I'm having a small anxiety attack here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I've just listened to one of my recordings of my H during the day last week (Tuesday). He talked to his mother, his favorite sister and one of his friends. It has been a long time since I've heard him mention anything about our R to his family. He actually didn't say anything to his mother or sister (except that he told his sister that I gained weight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) when she asked about me).

He spent quite a while talking to his friend who moved to Miami recently ( my H helped him move in). My H told him that he would LOVE to be able to go down to FLA to live. But he said that he's waiting to see if he gets this job opening stores - then it doesn't matter where he lives. Plus he's not sure what kind of job that I would find down there. He told his friend that he might go down to visit this summer with me. THEN he said to his friend, "Now this is between you and me. Things aren't going very well between me and S, so I just might be going to live with you by myself at some point. Keep a room for me there just in case. You never know. Keep in mind I would travel for business 6 weeks at a time and then be off for two weeks. I'd hardly ever be there - and when I'm not away for work I'll spend ALL my time at the beach!"

I'm feeling heartbroken again. He's at least been acting like he's happier with me lately. He's a good actor. It's also been a long while since I've heard anything like this.

Today's a rotten day.

OK done with my vent.

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: svb1 ]</small>
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 03/22/05 10:09 PM
He sounds more and more like someone that plays everything just right to get what he wants. I can see why you hurt.

Remember God loves you. This is not abstract love, you should be able to feel it often. I don't know what is going to happen. I do know you can still be happy. Hold on to that, it's real.

Often it's hard to know the right words. How can you take something that hurts so much, and make it better?

Realize we are thinking of you, and that we care.

SS - struggeling for the right words.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 03/30/05 05:25 PM
HI S !!

People are thinking about you. Hope you are doing well.

At least somewhat well?

Mostly well?

Fairly well?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 03/30/05 08:53 PM
Hi from me too. And Hi to you SS. You are a great ear, I've noticed from reading your convos with svb.

Well, SVB, I got back from NYC and the boards were down. I was wondering if you found anything else out.

Hope to hear from you soon. Saw your thread was bumped and jumped on for the ride.

Oh, and thanks for your reply on my thread, just read it today!!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 03/31/05 09:38 PM
Hello SS and JLS. Thanks for thinking about me.

I'm not doing so well, unfortunately.

First of all, yesterday was H's day off. He didn't go anywhere according to my voice activated recorder. I can't get confirmation from my GPS device, however, because H's car is being repaired. He was in a fender bender on Monday. He was rear-ended at a red light and hit the car in front of him in turn. He's ok, and everyone else is ok. The car is not. This is not why I'm upset, however. These things happen, the car is just a car and we have insurance, and H is ok. (and I have worse things to worry about)

I am upset about what else I heard on the VAC yesterday. He talked to one of his sisters and later, her husband. He informed them that we are both now in IC. (It's true - H started last week, and I started last night) He told his brother in law that the reason he is in IC is because he wants to be alone. He doesn't know how to go about it and he wants to learn how to go about it and set himself up independently. He wants to know how to know if he's made the right decision. He also told his BIL that he's going to IC to get ME to go to IC, really. He doesn't think that I'd go if he didn't go, too. He said he's playing a trick on me.

I feel that I'm done. I'm tempted to talk to him ASAP to let him know that I KNOW that he no longer wants to be married and that we should just end it. (I won't let him know how I know for sure). It's not fair to me for him to string me along. I'm 35 and I also need to move on in my life. We can sit down and discuss how we want to divide up our assets.

I'm tired. I'm emotionally exhausted. I can't fight for this M anymore. I just want to move on and heal and be happy. I feel that I will be wasting my time if I try to save our M anymore. He's just not in this and he doesn't care.

I only wonder how soon I should tell him. I'm dying to talk to him tonight. Is it too soon to say anything? Should I decide what my next move would be after we split up before I have my talk with him? Or should I just be as honest as possible and just dive in?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 03/31/05 11:02 PM
Hi S,
You sound sad.
Often it is, that I wish things were different for you.


I am upset about what else I heard on the VAC yesterday. He talked to one of his sisters and later, her husband. He informed them that we are both now in IC. (It's true - H started last week, and I started last night) He told his brother in law that the reason he is in IC is because he wants to be alone. He doesn't know how to go about it and he wants to learn how to go about it and set himself up independently. He wants to know how to know if he's made the right decision. He also told his BIL that he's going to IC to get ME to go to IC, really. He doesn't think that I'd go if he didn't go, too. He said he's playing a trick on me.

After reading - and getting to know both of you a little bit, I have some things to say about what is going on. This will be my opinion, and if you think I am all wrong, you can get a full refund of the cost of this visit.

I don't think he tells his family his true motives for things, but I think he does worry about how things "look" to others. It looks like he is setting you up, and saying in effect (to them) "this isn't working, I am doing IC for us, it will help her cope, I care about her feelings.......etc, etc, etc. "

I really don't understand his reasons, but the fact that he hides things won't let me trust him, or let me believe that he has any kind of GOOD reasons for what he is doing.

By that, I don't mean to say I think falling out of love, or not having common interest's is any reason to D, but I do mean many people honestly think that. I don't think he honestly thinks any thing like it, I think his motives are hidden, and I don't think he will ever admit what is really going on unless you have a covert film of every thing and he could get a lighter sentence for confessing the truth.

I keep wondering if he wants you to file, so he can claim innocence. You know him best, what do you think?

I feel that I'm done. I'm tempted to talk to him ASAP to let him know that I KNOW that he no longer wants to be married and that we should just end it. (I won't let him know how I know for sure). It's not fair to me for him to string me along. I'm 35 and I also need to move on in my life. We can sit down and discuss how we want to divide up our assets.

For you this will be very difficult emotionally. You will have 2nd, and third thoughts. I wonder if he will make a show of trying to talk you out of it at first. He strikes me as someone that could do even that. I hope I am wrong, but I type what comes to me.

You are right about the fairness of being strung along. You could simply say "It is plain that you are looking at us being apart. I think it is probably for the best, considering the way things are between us. Would you like to talk with me about separating our assets, and the details of the D, or were you going to get a lawyer? "

Something like that, neutral, with no details about what you know, or how you know. If he asks, just say words to the effect of: "What do you mean? It is pretty plain to me that you don't want the marriage long term, Do you want to work out the details or not? "

I'm tired. I'm emotionally exhausted. I can't fight for this M anymore. I just want to move on and heal and be happy. I feel that I will be wasting my time if I try to save our M anymore. He's just not in this and he doesn't care.

We want you to heal and be happy, as does your family. My big concern is always for the emotional and mental health of the people involved. Not that I think you are in danger of collapse - but this takes a toll on your health, and your happiness. Realize that this last sentence is a gross understatement - the cost can't be put into words. More than anything, I want you to KNOW that you are doing the right thing. The reason I asked you to read Esther from the OT, is that she is in a very bad spot too, and she took courage, and did the best she could with the little information she had. The bible talks sometimes about people fasting for increased spiritual guidance. Esther and her people used this aid to help them in their cause. I thought I would fast for you this last weekend, and went ahead with it, asking God to give you the help you need. It's easy to talk, and say you ought to do this, or that, but I wanted you to know people really care.

Once you look at all the facts, and make a decision, I recommend you take it to the Lord in prayer. Tell him what is going on, how you came to the conclusion you did, and ask him if it is right. If it is, you will know it. If it is not, you will know that too.

I only wonder how soon I should tell him. I'm dying to talk to him tonight. Is it too soon to say anything? Should I decide what my next move would be after we split up before I have my talk with him? Or should I just be as honest as possible and just dive in?

I think if I were doing it, I would put down on paper what I thought should happen. Make two outlines. One for your life, your plans. Do a timetable - be realistic about how soon you can move, how long it will take to get an answer back from your company about transferring, and now long it will take to do all your personal business.

Then do one for him -
How you think things should be split, when you think it should be started, and be final.

Once you have a realistic outline, talk to him using a similar approach to the above suggestions.

Now, if you want to just get it out in the open, you can start the talk tonight just to see if he agrees with you. If he says "yes, I think we should work on ending it." Or words to that effect, you can work up the details later.

AS I said earlier, he may stall, and say things like "WHAT?? I had no idea you felt this way, I need time to think about this shocking news."

If he says something like that, I think you can be sure (after the plan B experience) that he won't ever be truthful with you. In that case, you will probably need to file yourself. He may try to get you to do that, so you look like the "bad guy" to his family. Just keep these things in mind when you talk.

Now -
Now that we got through that part.

Know that you are not alone in the world.
Know that God is not some vague thought, he is real, and he loves YOU, and he will help YOU.
Know that he extends his care even now - I think you can feel it.

Yes, you are 35, but 35 is a good place to be. I turn 50 this year, and have twin girls 11 years old. There is time still for you, as long as God is helping. Ask him if he will help, I suspect I know what the answer will be. He will say "Of course I will help, what is it you want of me?"

I don't mean to make light of what is going on - but God can make good come of every trouble, if we look to him for help, and do what he wants us to do. Use the tools he has provided. Study it out in your mind, reach your own conclusion, take it to him for confirmation. Talk to your family for strength and support.

Last of all, believe in yourself. Don't doubt, be believing. If you do, all things will work together for your good, and you will find rest.

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 02:05 AM
Hi you guys,

svb, So glad to see you, but sorry about where you are and how you feel. Since we are at about the same time-frame, I want to put in my $0.02. But I really like reading what that SS guy has to say. He seems sooo darn smart, it's a little intimidating!!

I doo understand how you feel, as I was there myself just a few short weeks ago. My recent trip to NYC, with girlfriends and sans H and kids, was just what the Dr. ordered. I feel very refreshed and ready to start anew on M and life. BUT, I have kids. I can honestly not say what I would do if I had no children!!!

Whatever you do, Do it with integrity and the knowledge that you are as sure as you can be!!!

And if you ever move back ot Chi-town, let me know, I'm in the STL area.

jls
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 03:47 AM
JL,
I am sorry I have not read your history, so I can't say much to you in the way of advice.

It looks like you care about others, and are a nice person, but that's about all I can say from what I have read so far.


Sorry you have to be here - but glad S has a friend like you. Both of you have a good evening.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 04:03 PM
Jls,

I am happy that your trip to NYC did you good. If you feel refreshed and ready to work on your M, plan A your butt off!! Do the best you can, but still keep your eyes open.
Your situation is a little different from mine in that you DO have children. Also, your H has told you that he loves you (if I remember correctly) and mine never has. He would always tell me "I don't know" if I asked him. I've long since stopped asking. Plus, I only think that he told me "I don't know" because I don't think he wanted to tell me outright "no."

Also, if you try as hard and as long as you can to work on your M, you will feel at peace that you have always done the best that you can to save your M.

I know that this is a marriage saving website, and the last thing I want to do is to discourage someone from working on their M. I hope I'm not doing that.

Also, I will definitely let you know if I move back to Chicago. I'll keep you posted.

Regarding SS, isn't he the greatest? He's been a Godsend to me.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 04:51 PM
SS,

Words can't even express my appreciation for you over the past months. It just blew me away when I read that you fasted for me this past weekend. I honestly believed that it worked. I feel more clarity and peace right now.

I did read Esther as you suggested. I used to read the Bible very regularly in the past. It brought me much comfort. Somehow, I got away from it, and I'm not sure why. I will definitely be getting back in the habit. (but not like the movie - remember - Sister Act 2: back in the habit?)

I also prayed to God last night about making the right decision. I really feel at peace right now like you can't even imagine.

I didn't talk to my H last night. I didn't feel that it was the right time. My H had another IC appointment last night. He came home and he was in a good mood. He wants to go dancing tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Whatever.

He also came home, and pretty much ran upstairs and got on the phone in our bedroom (with the door closed). I'm sure he either called his favorite sister or his niece. I don't care. It just confirmed to me that we do not have a M as we should. Call it a sign, if you will. He should want to come home and share these things with me. I still felt/feel at peace.

I don't think I need a refund on your advice. I think you are right on target with your thoughts/suspicions.

1. I think he IS hiding his real motives for wanting to leave our M from his family. He DOES worry about what they think about him.

2. I DO believe that he will want me to file so that he can claim innocence. I will do it if it comes to that. He can claim whatever he wants. I know the truth deep down. You guys know the truth. GOD knows the truth. That's all that matters.

3. I DO believe that there is a strong possibility that he might try to talk me out of it at first. He would probably tell his family that he did that, too. It would make him look better. Plus, if he drags out our M any longer, he would be the only one benefitting from it. I think that he is still stringing this out until he finds out what is happening with him at work.

Do you have God whispering this stuff in your ear? I'm sure you must.

At this point, I don't really care what he is trying to hide or look like to his family. That is between him and his family and God now. I think I (we all) know enough about him and his actions. I feel that I am entitled to a D.

I think he is afraid that I might be bitter about everything if our M ends. I won't be. At least I'll try not to be. I'm going to let it all go. I won't wish him harm. He is going to be the one that has to live with himself and his actions and his conscience from now on. As I said before, it is between himself and God now.

I will move on and heal and be happy and be at PEACE.

Thanks,
svb
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 06:00 PM
svb,

I hope that I didn't upset you. I never thought that you hadn't tried all that you could and could walk away with a clear mind that you have done so. (That is simply a personal worry of MINE for me, so I tend to project it.)

I know that this is MB, and I am not for divorce, but I am NOT for staying in unhappy /unfulfilling Ms. I struggle everyday with this (maybe it's me and my expectations, not him). I will be very happy for you when you find that peace!! You DO deserve it.

And I have to second your vote for SS being right on target. I like to think that I can read people, but he (SS) really has a grasp on analyzing and giving different perspectives.
--And i'm not just kissing but, SS-- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 06:20 PM
Hello jls,

You didn't upset me at all!! Don't worry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just don't want to upset or discourage YOU!!

I do feel at peace that I've done all that I can. I want YOU to feel at peace too. That's why I'm so glad that you've got a renewed energy to work on your M.

Take care and KEEP POSTING. Don't worry about posting even if no one replies to you. It always feels good to vent.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 04/01/05 06:39 PM
Yes svb,

IT DOES feel good to vent! And i joined Idiotville, fortunately or un-, I probably belong there!!

Thanks,
jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/05/05 03:44 PM
Update .......

I had a talk with H on Saturday night. I let it all out. I told him that I think that it's time that we get a D. He really listened to me. (He even lowered the volume on the television) I think he was surprised that I brought it up. He didn't say anything. He only shook his head "no" at one point when I was was saying that I had a feeling that he was only sticking around to see what was going to happen to him at work. I only asked him one question - if he really loved me when he M me. He said , "Yes!" (but what else would he say?) I shouldn't even have asked. I couldn't help it, though.

Overall, though, he didn't really say anything. He didn't agree or disagree. He had a look of surprise - or maybe relief? on his face. I could only assume that, by his silence, he agreed with me.

I didn't bring it up on Sunday.

Last night, I started to talk to him about the details of splitting up. I went down a list of the things that we needed to do. (Do you realize that it only takes 30 DAYS to get a D after the papers are filed in PA?) He only said, "if this is what you want, what are you going to do?" I said that I would go to Chicago. I have nothing here for me in PA.
He said, "what about your IC?" I said that there are therapists in Chicago. He didn't say anything else.

Later on in the night, I asked him if, since he hadn't said anything to me one way or another, he agrees that this is what we should do. He said that he thought that I should finish my IC here before I make such big decisions.
(I think I failed to mention that I heard H tell his sister on the phone last week that he thinks that I am in TOTAL depression - I don't agree) I told him that there is nothing left for us to do - he doesn't want to talk about our problems, doesn't want to go to MC. I asked him if he saw a future for us. He said, "I don't know." (what a surprise).

Here's what I think -- he has no desire to continue our M, but somehow he wants to be sure that I am "fixed" before we split up. I suppose because then I can handle the world on my own??? I have news for him .... I don't NEEEED him. I'm sure that this is mostly a show for his family. Apparently they ALL know that we are in IC.

I don't have hope for us anymore. The only thing that gives me hope now is starting my life over in Chicago.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/05/05 10:54 PM
It's sometimes so hard to know what to say.

You have to feel so.........whats the word?
Helpless? Wishing things had been different, but knowing you have to go on and make big changes.

Helpless isn't it, but I can't come up with it.

Even when you know you are doing the right thing, the feelings are there. They change too - at least for me they do depending on how tired I am, and how healthy I am.

I have great faith in you. There is no worry about IF you can handle this, but only sadness that it has to be, and the knowledge that it isn't over yet, and the feelings will go round and round for still some time.

I agree with you that when someone loves you, they don't listen to you talk about getting a D, and say in effect "whatever."

I hope you talk often to your mother. She loves you deeply, and cares about your feelings and what happens to you.

After sitting here thinking, I need to comment on a little more than just this.

He really listened to me. (He even lowered the volume on the television)

Is this a sign of how he usually listens? Seldom lowers the volume?

It would be proper to turn the TV off, face you, and say "What's on your mind, and how can I help?"

Sometimes I hate the TV, but it's just a symptom, not the problem.

I think he was surprised that I brought it up. He didn't say anything. He only shook his head "no" at one point when I was was saying that I had a feeling that he was only sticking around to see what was going to happen to him at work.

Just for the record, I did not expect him to say "Yes, I am only here until I can decide what I want, then I was going to file anyway." That kind of answer would not be consistant at all with how he has communicated with you. Were I talking to you in person though, you would see me smile, because I think I would have done it much the same as you did.

My head knows that I should just leave some things alone, but my heart needs to get it out sometimes.

I only asked him one question - if he really loved me when he M me. He said , "Yes!" (but what else would he say?) I shouldn't even have asked. I couldn't help it, though.

Much the same, I think we are all wired this way. Sometimes we do have to ask.

For the record, I think he did love you when he married you. From the way you tell the story, I think both of you were very much in love.
There is too much that has happened, and too much time gone by for me to say what went wrong, but I think you have learned so much here that will help you in the future. I think you HAVE a future too - a happy one. I hope you have faith in that as much as I do.

Overall, though, he didn't really say anything. He didn't agree or disagree. He had a look of surprise - or maybe relief? on his face. I could only assume that, by his silence, he agreed with me.

He can still tell you if he wants to change things. We both doubt that he will.



Asking "what about your IC" means to me that he was setting it up as a show of care for you. To me it means his time table was to let you finish IC first. Understand I am only voicing my opinion, I can't read him mind, or see into his heart.

(I think I failed to mention that I heard H tell his sister on the phone last week that he thinks that I am in TOTAL depression - I don't agree) I told him that there is nothing left for us to do - he doesn't want to talk about our problems, doesn't want to go to MC. I asked him if he saw a future for us. He said, "I don't know." (what a surprise).

You (if you were in) total depression would fit with his wanting IC for you first, before anything else happens. It's like he has it all worked out, and now his plans are messed up.
Like: "Well, I she was totally depressed, I got IC for her, and tried to work it out, but nothing has changed, so I suppose I must look out for my future, and we are separating."

Something like that?


I have news for him .... I don't NEEEED him. I'm sure that this is mostly a show for his family. Apparently they ALL know that we are in IC.

I think you need to be away from him for 6 months or so to begin to be emotionally healthy again. I believe you will do well on your owm. What he was doing for so long was abuse, and it doesn't go away right away even if he stops doing the worst of it. The sins of comission may have stopped, but the sins of omission have continued - though I don't know exactly how the day to day life has been since the plan B ended. I would guess you have not felt loved as you have wished to be - as it should be.

I don't have hope for us anymore. The only thing that gives me hope now is starting my life over in Chicago.

Would you mind telling us your plans and dreams............especially the ones in your heart that you are afraid may never be.

I think you will have a much better chance of them happening if you will acknowledge them, and work for them to come true.

Please?

SS

PS, thanks both of you for your kind words, I always hope I am of some help.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/07/05 03:28 PM
Hello SS,

I've thought a lot about what you wrote. I think this post is going to be long. (as if I ever have short posts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

You have to feel so.........whats the word?
Helpless? Wishing things had been different, but knowing you have to go on and make big changes.
Helpless isn't it, but I can't come up with it.

Yeah, I can't come up with a word either, but I know what you mean.

Is this a sign of how he usually listens? Seldom lowers the volume?

That's exactly how he listens. He actually NEVER lowers the volume. I always have to do it and usually he gets annoyed. That's why it seemed so odd to me when he turned down the volume --- WAY down.

Asking "what about your IC" means to me that he was setting it up as a show of care for you. To me it means his time table was to let you finish IC first. Understand I am only voicing my opinion, I can't read him mind, or see into his heart.

You (if you were in) total depression would fit with his wanting IC for you first, before anything else happens. It's like he has it all worked out, and now his plans are messed up.

Like: "Well, I she was totally depressed, I got IC for her, and tried to work it out, but nothing has changed, so I suppose I must look out for my future, and we are separating."

Something like that?

That's EXACTLY it. As a matter of fact, I think he mentioned something like that to his BIL. Something like, "I'll give it 2 or 3 months and then I'll say 'listen, this isn't working out - I am having too many stomache aches, you are having too many headaches - it is not healthy for us to be together.'"

I am definitely ruining his plan. HE has to be in control. I feel now that he is ignoring what I said and will still wait 2 or 3 months to let me know when HE thinks it's over. He STILL has to follow his plan.

Either way, it's going to be over. What difference does it make? I'd rather just end it right now. The sooner that I leave, the sooner I can heal and get on with my life. I was so excited when I found out that it only takes 30 days for a D to be final in PA - just over in NJ, you have to be legally separated for 18 months before you can even file!

I wrote him a check for him to use to open up his new bank accounts. He hasn't touched it. He was off on Tuesday, and he's off today, too. I know he won't do it.

He is not taking me seriously at all. I have never been more serious! Maybe I should just open my own account and close our joint account. He'll have no choice then.
He'll see how serious I am. AND I should just do the D paperwork ... like you said.

The sins of comission may have stopped, but the sins of omission have continued - though I don't know exactly how the day to day life has been since the plan B ended. I would guess you have not felt loved as you have wished to be - as it should be.

No, I don't feel loved -- not as I should in a M. He cannot and will not be open and honest with me. I don't trust him. He's not the man I M.

I've heard too many of his lies and secrets (via recorder). I am really done. I finally get it. I DO deserve more. I still feel clarity and peace. I'm ready to move on. If he really wanted to change things, he would - but he won't.

I feel SO different. I feel completely disconnected from him. I have no desire to talk to him about M issues or our future. I'm dead inside when it comes to him. I guess I have completely shut down in that area. That last conversation with his BIL just did it for me. He wants to be alone. OK that's it. I'm not going to try anymore. I don't WANT to try anymore.

I can see where he would think that I am depressed. I might be mildly depressed. (but I'm still on Lexapro) But I would think that if I were really depressed, I would have NO hope whatsoever about anything. I DO have hope. I have hope for MY OWN future. I really can't wait to start it now. I am certainly not suicidal. There's too much to do and see and learn in this lifetime! Now, come on, does that sound like a really depressed person to you!?

Ok now, since you asked .....

Would you mind telling us your plans and dreams............especially the ones in your heart that you are afraid may never be.

Here is what I've been thinking: (picture a dreamy look and a small smile on my face)

As you know, I want to move back to Chicago. I need to be near my family. I've given up the idea of transferring with my company to the manufacturing site nearer to Chicago. It's still too far away from my family.

There could be a chance that they'll let me work out of my home doing my same job -- all I need is a laptop and a phone. If not, it's no big deal. I'm not really in my chosen profession, anyway. (long story) I'd only hate to leave my company at this particular moment because I will have been with them for 5 years in September. Although I am vested in my 401K plan, I will not be vested in my pension plan until then.

Anyway, I would move to Chicago and stay with my mom until I find a new job (in my chosen profession). Then I would search for a home to BUY for myself. I've wasted so many years just renting. I want something of my own.

Yes, I would also like to find someone to share the rest of my life with -- someone who really loves me and is open and honest and faithful -- someone who wants a true partner in life. Yes, I would also like to have children, if possible. The thought of living my whole life and not having children does depress me a little. If I found the right man and had children, I would gladly give up my career until at least the youngest is in school, if not a little longer. (my mother did that). I figure that we would purchase a house together and I could rent out my townhouse (which is what I plan to buy).

If I don't find the right man and have children, that's ok, too. I can still be alone and be happy. I think I'd rather be alone and happy, than married and miserable at this point.

I think I'm officially done with school, after finishing my MBA, but I'd love to take classed here and there for fun. I'd like to learn more languages and travel as much as possible. I'd also love to stop this yo-yo weight thing and really get fit and healthy.

I think I'd also like to volunteer at a local animal shelter or the ZOO! Or Red Cross. I'm not sure yet.

Oh and I want a puppy. I jealous of JLS and would like to have all of her animals. I don't think my new townhouse complex would allow horses and goats, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

(BTW Lenny is doing just great. He's honkin huge nowadays. I upgraded his tank to a 10 gallon one. I also bought 2 new fish on Sunday. I don't have any names yet, though.)

OK, time to wake up now. I don't think that this is all that out of reach. See, nothing like ruling the world or anything like that. I just want it all NOW.

svb
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/07/05 04:54 PM
I forgot to mention something. This will tell you exactly how seriously H is taking me.

He asked me last night,"don't you think that we need a lighter bedspread for the summer?"

???!!!???

I just looked at him at first. The look on my face was probably priceless. I just said, "we didn't have one last year."

Why on earth would he ask that?

I should have said, "didn't you hear a THING that I told you the other night?"

I've been bringing some empty boxes home from work. I've packed a few of them, too. I know he's seen the boxes, but he hasn't said anything about them. I'm also getting rid of/throwing out a lot of things I don't need any more. Some of it HE'S taken to the dumpster. Still, no word.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 04/07/05 10:03 PM
Hi svb,

Hee hee, "jealous of jls and all of her animals"!! You have NO idea... I was out chasing 2 horses today that got out of the arena (the gate wasn't latched and blew open) - THAT got my adrenalin pumping!! I am very tired, tended bar last nite and got to bed at around 4:30, up at 10:30,, cleaning stalls by 11:30, chasing horses by 2:00, picking up 7yo son at 3:00. Going to store now, for food and other sustenance (cheap Baileys for my coffee). Fed the goat, checked the chickens, cleaned the catlitter box (1 of them), folded a little laundry, straightened up---just a few "other" things I did today and this was a slow day, since I worked last nite. But I really do love it. And I get to go to a cheerleading meeting with my 14yo D tonite. No wonder i don't cook dinner enuf and my house is a "little" rough. LOL.

svb, I wish you ALL the best. If,or should i say when, you do get back to Chi-town, look me up in STL. I also have a cousin in Chicago and one in Springfield.

I am sorry that your H is not really hearing you. My H is often the same. I also think that they (men - sorry SS) often ignore what they don't want to deal with. Perhaps your H is really hoping that all will stay the same and he doesn't really want to D, the talk is really just talk. I'm just throwing stuff out there. My H will say something out of the blue sometimes, that really throws me. Like he was so worried the whole time I was in NYC, about us. I never would have guessed, he doesn't act that way.

I am sorry that you feel that D is your only (?) or best option right now. I can't blame you at all. I just don't know what people want from a relationship (like your H or mine).

Sending good vibes (and smelly animal ones too) your way,
jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/08/05 03:51 PM
Hi jls.

I don't know, it all sound kind of rewarding/fulfilling to me! Did you get the feeling that your horses were lauging at you as you chased them around?

My H will say something out of the blue sometimes, that really throws me. Like he was so worried the whole time I was in NYC, about us. I never would have guessed, he doesn't act that way.

That sounds like a really good sign to me. Maybe that short time you were away got him thinking a little. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for me, I came home from work last night and found 2 dozen peach colored roses in a vase on the coffee table. H had a cup of tea waiting for me in the kitchen. He didn't see me find these things. He was actually walking out of the house when I walked in. He was going to the gym.

I don't know what to make of any of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
This is from someone who wants to be ALONE in life from now on.

Maybe this is just his way of getting me off-track and dragging out our M a little longer - not to save it, but till he's ready with his own plan to go. I'm still going to pack some more boxes this weekend.

svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/08/05 04:45 PM
I notice that often I come by, see things are doing fine, so I don't worry - but, I fail to say I think things are going well.

I think things are going well.

As usual, I have hundreds of coments to make <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, no time right now....... Be back later.

S,
What were your
1. First thoughts when you saw the roses.
2. Second thoughts -

JLS -

"Man should not live where dog does not bark, and horse does not neigh."
Old Jewish Proverb -


Sounds like you are living in the right place anyway.
Hope you have lots of good with the hard parts. It sure makes it easier.

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I asked H to leave - 04/08/05 04:57 PM
Hi SVB,

I've been following this thread for a while, but I'm not sure if I've responded to you. It kills me that you dont know exactly where he was going all this time, even with the GPS. For me, that would be too frustraiting not to know. I'm an incurable snoop!

Someone mentioned it earlier... He's got 'A Story' he's planning... setting up his family with the stories of you being depressed, etc. If he has his way, this is how it will play out:

'I tried. I got her to IC, but her problems were too big for us. I set her up nicely, left her has gently as I could. This is really hard for me. I wish her the best'. Then the family gathers around him, supports, and oh, the poor man. No mention of his withdrawl and trists, whatever they may be.

No one will believe you AFTER he's left you. Anything you say will just be considered retalitory.

I'd be very direct. 'You can get whatever kind of spread you want for your new place.' 'We are breaking up, please dont bring home flowers, I dont consider this a joyous occasion'.

He's got to reel you back in so he can dump you later, imho. You seemed to be getting some control back, dont let him run the show now just because he's throwing out a few crumbs. This isnt reconsilation he's offering you, it's appeasement. What do you think?

Be careful and stay strong - Dru
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 04/08/05 05:16 PM
Y'know svb,
I try to stay positive, but I have to agree with Drucilla on that one. Be direct, and it is appeasement, not recovery he seems to be aiming at. My H does this too, as much as I have tried to explain to him. I will be very upset after a "disagreement" or serious discussion about what I think our probs are, or what needs are not being met. He will then, often, get up the next morning early and do a very nice thing for me. BUT it has NOTHING to do with what we were discussing. I tell him, Thank you and express great gratitude. I try to tell him that he is making a deposit in the LoveBank. And that we still need to address the real issues. Sometimes, as nice as this is, it is FRUSTRATING!! He is not listening to me. We do not spend time together (I mean, really hardly ever). He does not talk to me very much or share his feelings with me. And I really feel that I cannot trust him!! These are very big issues for me. I know that you feel the same way about your H.

That is why I think that you need to be direct. And follow up your words with actions(like packing...).

I keep thinking that maybe your H wants to work things out, but does not know how. OR maybe that is my H.

I also know that we are all different, but I, like Drucilla, would still really want to know where and what he was going and doing. That is just me.

ANd By the way, it is all very fulfilling, most of the time. Except when I get around to really cleaning inside, scrubbing floors.., and then the dog throws up. OR my H's old cat. I wouldn't trade places with a millionare that wouldn't have animals (in or out). And I really believe that dogs and cats make better pets and bond with you better when they are allowed inside. Again, just MHO. I sure love (most of) our animals!!

jls

They WERE laughing at me- I knew that!!!
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/08/05 07:03 PM
AWWW SS, I want to know how you think things are going well!

That's ok, I can try to be patient -- but hurry back anyway.

As for the roses, my first reaction was, "ooooh roses!" and I smelled them. (because that's just what you do when you get roses)

But then I started thinking, "why did he buy roses?" I like to have fresh flowers around the house on occasion. I buy them myself sometimes, but not too often. I had some in the house when he came back from his trip. I know he likes them around, too. So part of me thought that he bought them because HE likes them around, and not necessarily just for me.

THEN I thought that if he really did buy them for ME, it's all very nice, but it's not enough. It's nice, but it's not what I really NEED from him. I need him to be open and honest with me. I won't ever get that from him.

In the past, I'm sure I would have gotten a little bit of hope out of that gesture. I think I'm way past that now.

Drucilla,

Thanks for posting. I think you're right. He's got a plan. It all fits. He's got to be in control and be the dumper. I think his story will go pretty much like the one you laid out. He needs to look good to his family AND he will get all kinds of sympathy. But what do they REALLY know? They are THOUSANDS of miles away. I don't know how he can live with himself.

You know, it also crossed my mind at one point that, after we split up, and I tell MY friends and family that I suspect he was cheating, it might somehow get to his hometown in Arg. We have a family friend who is from his hometown. I'm SURE that his family will say that I'm bitter and making it up (who knows, maybe even mentally unstable). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> He'll even be LUCKY to be away from me. Maybe I should be vague with everybody except my mom, brother, and best friend, and just say, "It didn't work out."

But, yes, I do think that it is probably appeasement, and not reconciliation. I am going to try to keep my control of the situation. Maybe I can leave my M with some dignity.

JLS,

That is why I think that you need to be direct. And follow up your words with actions(like packing...).

You betcha I'm going to keep packing! Those are my plans for this weekend. I haven't quite figured out what I'm going to say to him exactly yet. It'll come to me -- maybe after a couple of cups of coffee w/ Bailey's in it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I got a bottle of Bailey's for Christmas, and I haven't even opened it yet. Maybe it's about time.

I keep thinking that maybe your H wants to work things out, but does not know how. OR maybe that is my H.

I am confident that it is YOUR H. You keep doing your plan A. I think your H has said many positive things. Please don't give up hope yet.

I had a thought about your situation. I read this somewhere, I think on the Emotional Needs board. Is there any way that you can have someone come in and help you clean at least one day a week, or once a month? It just sounds like you're too overwhelmed. Some spouses don't care HOW the house is cleaned, as long as it is clean. See, now I am just throwing things out there.

As for the animals, I grew up with a dog in the house. I considered possibly getting a cat if/when I'm on my own, I hear they're easier to take care of and you can leave them alone for a few days as well. But 1) I'm too used to dogs, and 2)I'm afraid that I'll become that old lady with 50 cats at some point. Oh, and 3) a cat might eat my fish.

Thanks,
svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/09/05 12:12 AM
SVB said:
That's EXACTLY it. As a matter of fact, I think he mentioned something like that to his BIL. Something like, "I'll give it 2 or 3 months and then I'll say 'listen, this isn't working out - I am having too many stomache aches, you are having too many headaches - it is not healthy for us to be together.'"

I am definitely ruining his plan. HE has to be in control. I feel now that he is ignoring what I said and will still wait 2 or 3 months to let me know when HE thinks it's over. He STILL has to follow his plan.


This is the feel I get from how he has been in the past. He wants to be in control.
I also get the feeling that he doesn't take change well. That is, if he is going along doing it HIS WAY, and something happens, it takes him a long time to react to the change, and he resists it.

I believe that would fit with many of the ways he has interacted with you over the years, and it would fit with him ignoring your conversations so far, and going on just like he was.

He is not taking me seriously at all. I have never been more serious! Maybe I should just open my own account and close our joint account. He'll have no choice then.
He'll see how serious I am. AND I should just do the D paperwork ... like you said.


Do whatever is consistent with your goals. If you have that time line, and your goals written down for YOU, then changing the time line, doesn't change the goal, it won't matter if the time is adjusted a little here or there.

I do caution you to be careful. Not that I worry -
OK, I do worry. This won't be an ordinary thing for him. If indeed he does not take changes to his plan well - How did he react when he was at his worst?

Do you have a place you could go if you needed to?

Do you have a plastic bag for Lenny?
(Or have you seen "Finding Nemo" yet?)

I need to go, and haven't come close to finishing, so I will address one more thing, and be back when I can.

AWWW SS, I want to know how you think things are going well!

I check in, and I read, but often don't have time for a reply. As you know, I don't often do "Hi how are you" posts. Except when I worry about someone, and need to know how they are - how they really are.

You are doing well emotionally.
I know this is hard, and that at least a little bit of this is you putting your best self out here in the public eye.
( Remember, you asked, and I try to tell the truth.)

I know it hurts, I know you worry about a lot of things that MIGHT happen.
However - when a person prays, and gets answers. When God supports them with that calm, that tells them they are going in the right direction, then I don't worry as much. God knows what he is doing, and if he prompts you, and if you can tell what that feeling is, and know what is right, then
my belief is that things are going well. God never makes a mistake - so if you follow his lead, you will find happiness. It's just a question of how long it will take. IN the short term, he will give you peace as often as you need it. Especially when you pray for help.

That doesn't mean it isn't hard, but it means you can do it. God always holds up his end, and I trust that you will do a good job with your end too. I have seen to much of you to think otherwise.

If God feels the same about you, I believe you will feel it when you read this.

See you gals later.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/12/05 04:09 PM

I do caution you to be careful. Not that I worry -
OK, I do worry. This won't be an ordinary thing for him. If indeed he does not take changes to his plan well - How did he react when he was at his worst?

When something doesn't go according to his plan (he can't control me), he gets NASTY. MEAN. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So, saying that...

It seems that he first tried to convince me nicely that I should wait to make any big decisions about a D until I'm done with IC. Then he pretended that we never had a D conversation and acted very sweetly -- hoping that I'd forget about it all, I suppose.

But I've been pushing the issue. I asked him yesterday if he's going to open a checking account his his name. He said in a sarcastic tone, "Yeah, two!" I was going over our finances last night - just updating everything to get an accurate picture of where we stand (so I can get an idea on how we can divide everything)

Later on I sat down with him and told him that I can't wait until I'm done w/IC to move on. He asked, "so what are you going to do? Transfer to Chicago with your job?" I told him that I can't - there aren't any jobs there with my company. He suggested that I look for a job in Chicago from here, and move when I find one. I told him that I've BEEN doing that. I think it will be easier to move and do a job search there.

He got angry, "FINE. Do whatever you want to do!"

I told him again that I don't think that he sees a future for the two of us. (It's really hard not to say, "I KNOW you want to be ALONE from now on!) I told him that I don't want to do this, but I have no choice. I said that he could have told me at any point that he didn't want to D, but he hasn't.

Then I asked him, "When were you ever going to tell me that you wanted to go your separate way?" He said nastily, "When you woke up!" I asked him what he meant, nicely. He didn't say anything. I asked him again, TWICE. Finally he yelled, "What's the point! It's over, right? You are going one way in life, and I am going in another!"

End of conversation.

I couldn't help feeling disappointed. I had hoped, deep down, that he would tell me, "no, I do NOT want to D. I want to make things work." No such luck.

I have to keep telling myself...You're doing the right thing. You're doing the right thing. You're doing the right thing! Then I ask myself, "Maybe there's 10% of him that DOESN'T want to D. Maybe, my bringing up the D issue eliminates that 10% chance." It's just a fleeting thought, though. I guess I know the truth.

I am just hoping now that he doesn't stay mean and nasty from now on. I hope he will at least be civil about all of this.


svb <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/12/05 06:03 PM
Hi,
Hope you are having a really good day at work. I can see time at home is not really fun right now.

When something doesn't go according to his plan (he can't control me), he gets NASTY. MEAN. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I was afraid of that. His history has not been really good over the years.

But I've been pushing the issue. I asked him yesterday if he's going to open a checking account his his name. He said in a sarcastic tone, "Yeah, two!" I was going over our finances last night - just updating everything to get an accurate picture of where we stand (so I can get an idea on how we can divide everything)

Beware the tall blue eyed girl on a mision.
S, I really hope you can laugh about this sometimes. I know it's not really a laughing matter, but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to create some laughts every once in a while. Much better than going crazy.

Later on I sat down with him and told him that I can't wait until I'm done w/IC to move on. He asked, "so what are you going to do? Transfer to Chicago with your job?"

I think he is seeing a side of you that has always been ther, but that he refused to acknowledge. His personality needs to put others down in order to feel good about himself. He used you for that for years. His curiousity seems to be real - I suspect he may have thought you would be a wreck. Just for the record, I always thought you would do well.

I told him that I can't - there aren't any jobs there with my company. He suggested that I look for a job in Chicago from here, and move when I find one. I told him that I've BEEN doing that. I think it will be easier to move and do a job search there.

He got angry, "FINE. Do whatever you want to do!"


You have always been capable of doing a good job without him, but you listened to him, and you used his suggestions because that's the way a marriage is supposed to work. In other words, you have always tried to use POJA. I would guess that he - except for the very beginning, he did things "HIS WAY". I would also suppose that he didn't accept much input from you. I think it would be well to watch for this when you date - and find someone that seeks your opinion, and values it. Please forgive me for bringing this up now, but it came to mind.

I told him again that I don't think that he sees a future for the two of us. (It's really hard not to say, "I KNOW you want to be ALONE from now on!) I told him that I don't want to do this, but I have no choice. I said that he could have told me at any point that he didn't want to D, but he hasn't.

You want so much to hear that he once loved you - your heart is near to breaking sometimes to think that it has all been a lie, for all these years. I often don't take time to put my thoughts into the right words. When I said that you put on a good face for the world - I meant, most people don't know how badly you hurt at times. You hide it well, and every one thinks you are really tough. Well, you are tough, and talented, and smart, but that doesn't mean you don't hurt some days. I just wanted you to know that we understand, and it's OK, and we support you. It's going to continue good/bad for a while. It' WILL get better.

Then I asked him, "When were you ever going to tell me that you wanted to go your separate way?" He said nastily, "When you woke up!" I asked him what he meant, nicely. He didn't say anything. I asked him again, TWICE. Finally he yelled, "What's the point! It's over, right? You are going one way in life, and I am going in another!"

You know why he said "when you woke up." He has thought for a long time that you didn't have a clue. That he was so smart, and that his plans were secret, and that you wouldn't know until he sprang it all on you. I think a part of his mind knows what he is giving up, and is angry at the loss, but his pride won't let him admit it to the rest of him.

Pride is such a terrible thing. You may notice that there is no such thing in the scriptures at rightous pride. It is always condemed. The book of Malachi tells us that when the Lord clenses the earth by fire, the proud will be burned, and the meek will inheret the earth. This is not out of anger or spite, but it is a direct result of their own actions, and thoughts - a result of the pride, or the meekness.

Most of us think of pride as self-centeredness, conceit, boastfulness, arrogance, or haughtiness. All of these are elements of the sin, but the heart, or core, is still missing.

The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.”

Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)

Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled.

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives. They pit their perceptions of truth against God’s great knowledge, their abilities versus God’s priesthood power, their accomplishments against His mighty works.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s.

Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them.

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others.

I think this has produced the destruction of your marriage. He pitted himself against you - the one he should have protected, and cared for. For some reason he had to see himself as better than you, not your partner.

BTW, these thoughts are not original with me, I heard this sermon once at a church meeting.

I also hurt for what might have been, but none of us can change the past, and it is your job to make the best of your future. I hope you can find someone that delights in being your partner - with all that this implies.

I couldn't help feeling disappointed. I had hoped, deep down, that he would tell me, "no, I do NOT want to D. I want to make things work." No such luck.

I was worried he would say yes, and use that as a delay tactic. I don't know what is in his heart. I know he has much good in him, and I BELIEVE he was once very much in love with you. Love usually brings out the best in us - but all too often the more base part of us returns to destroy the beautiful thing that we helped create. Please don't fish for answers, his heart is closed, and I see only hurt for you if you continue to ask.
PLease?


I have to keep telling myself...You're doing the right thing. You're doing the right thing. You're doing the right thing! Then I ask myself, "Maybe there's 10% of him that DOESN'T want to D. Maybe, my bringing up the D issue eliminates that 10% chance." It's just a fleeting thought, though. I guess I know the truth.

His actions have been consistant for more than a year. He has resisted all your efforts to repair a damaged relationship. Not just resisted, but he has fuled the destruction.

I commend you for the hope that is in your heart, even now. It is a good, noble, wonderful thing. It is what will help you create the rest of your life, and fill it with joy. It is a great gift to pass on to your children, or child, as your mother passed it on to you.

One of the reasons I recommended you read Esther -
She didn't know what would come of her life, but she knew she wasn't born to be a failure. She trusted in God, she fasted, she prayed, and she did ALL THAT SHE COULD ON HER OWN. You are doing these things too. Remember the feelings of calm, and love that you get when you pray. You may very well feel that now, because I know that God wants you to trust him, and to pray for him, and follow the still small voice he gives to guide those that seek him.
I do have faith in you.

I am just hoping now that he doesn't stay mean and nasty from now on. I hope he will at least be civil about all of this.

That would be better, but it doesn't really matter.

Keep praying, and be the best SVB you can be. Things will come to you, you'll get through this OK.

Keep your mom informed, she worries about you.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/12/05 09:40 PM
Thanks SS, I was hoping that you'd be here today.

I'm not having such a good day at work. I have these thoughts constantly swirling in my head. I'm not putting in my 100% -- haven't been for the past year -- and I feel horrible about it. Somehow, though, I managed to get a good review. It's a miracle.

His personality needs to put others down in order to feel good about himself. He used you for that for years. His curiousity seems to be real - I suspect he may have thought you would be a wreck. Just for the record, I always thought you would do well.

Thanks, SS. I thought I would be a wreck, too. Well, I was more of a wreck in the past. I think it might be the Lexapro that helps!

I would guess that he - except for the very beginning, he did things "HIS WAY". I would also suppose that he didn't accept much input from you.

That's exactly right. It's his way, or no way. As for the input, he doesn't listen to a thing that I tell him. He will take advice from ANYONE else but me.

I think it would be well to watch for this when you date - and find someone that seeks your opinion, and values it. Please forgive me for bringing this up now, but it came to mind.

YIKES! Dating. I'm kind of looking forward to that and not, all at the same time. It's ok that you bring it up - it's good advice.

When I said that you put on a good face for the world - I meant, most people don't know how badly you hurt at times. You hide it well, and every one thinks you are really tough.

Again, I think it's the Lexapro!

You know why he said "when you woke up." He has thought for a long time that you didn't have a clue. That he was so smart, and that his plans were secret, and that you wouldn't know until he sprang it all on you. I think a part of his mind knows what he is giving up, and is angry at the loss, but his pride won't let him admit it to the rest of him.

I was hoping that someone would explain to me what that meant. I still had no idea what that meant, except that maybe he wasn't ever going to tell me how he felt and that I had to figure it out for myself.

BTW, these thoughts are not original with me, I heard this sermon once at a church meeting.

I'm still in awe of your thoughts and insights. I'm sure JLS and many others would agree with me.

I commend you for the hope that is in your heart, even now. It is a good, noble, wonderful thing. It is what will help you create the rest of your life, and fill it with joy. It is a great gift to pass on to your children, or child, as your mother passed it on to you.

You know, we talk about my mother a lot here - and that's ok. I need a moment to talk about my father. I hope you don't mind, but it is MY thread, you know, so I will.

My dad was soft-spoken, intelligent (lived all over the world & spoke 4 languages), sweet, kind, gentle, generous, godly, loyal, HONEST, patient, responsible, hard-working, and full of integrity. (I'm leaving out a lot) HE saw the best in everybody. He ADORED his wife and his kids. He was really a great man. (ask my mom) It was just unfortunate that he got sick for soooo long. Yeah, bad things happen to good people. But you know what, I NEVER heard him complain about it.

I think if I didn't have my father in my life (and my mother), and based on the experience I've had w/my H, I think I could have lost all hope on finding a good man and having a good life. But knowing my father, and seeing all of the good men working on their marriages on MB and helping others, I DO have hope.

Again, even if I don't find the right man, I still have hope (overall) for my future. (I'm sure I'll have bad moments where I'll have less hope.)

I hope this post isn't too nauseating. I guess I miss my dad today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/15/05 02:51 PM
I'm feeling kind of bummed right now.

I just got off the phone with H. I told him that I'm going out to dinner with my group from work tonight. It's a farewell dinner for our boss that we never really had before he left.

I told H that I had been thinking a lot. He asked where I found the information on getting D paperwork online. I told him. I asked, "So you think this is the right thing to do?" He said yes.

Last night he had another IC appointment. He came back and he was very withdrawn. We barely spoke. I checked the computer later on in the night, before I went to bed, and I noticed that he had been looking at apartments, both in our area and in Florida. He was also looking at new/used cars for sale. It looks like he wants a new place and a new car.
It looks as if both of us are ready to move on.

This is really starting to sink in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/15/05 09:47 PM
I've been thinking and I realized that I'm probably done done with MB. There will be no more working on my M. My M is over. It's just a matter of getting the D taken care of now.

I feel that I've done everything I could to try to save my M. Unfortunately, though, my H never had the intention of saving our M.

I want to thank everybody that has supported me throughout this whole ordeal. It has meant more to me than you can ever imagine. I think you are all wonderful people and this is a fantastic website. I have learned a great deal and will use all of the information here in my future.

Thanks again to everyone. I will probably check in from time to time to see how everyone is doing.

svb
Posted By: LovingBoundaries Re: I asked H to leave - 04/15/05 10:23 PM
Hi svb,

I'm sorry that you're so sad now. That feeling goes up and down, as does the feeling of excitement for the future, throughout the whole process.

I hope you're not leaving because you're not "marriage building" right now. The same people who helped you before will continue to help you through this stage. Chances are that your H will get worse, not better, during the divorce process.

Let the people here who know you and know how your dynamics work help you through this too. Those of us (like me) who can't help will still pray for you and silently support you during this difficult time.

If you need to leave here for now, remember that you have friends and <silent> wellwishers here who care about you---and we're only a click away.

Take care
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/16/05 07:37 PM
Thank you, LovingBoundaries.

See, now that's what I was talking about when I said that the people here are wonderful.

I was feeling horrible yesterday -- very sad. Last night was even worse. I came home from my dinner and H was looking at the D website. (He was off from work yesterday) He had already opened up his new checking account. He took his name off of our joint credit card and cut up the card and left it out on our desk. It's STILL there. He was kind of cold last night, too.

I went upstairs to bed and really really cried for about 2 hours until I fell asleep. I don't remember the last time I cried like that. I didn't want him to see me cry. This is what I asked him to do, so why was I so upset? I kept thinking, "what have I done?" This is so final.

Today I feel better. It's a beautiful day outside. I guess you're right about the ups and downs.

H starts working nights tonight. I'll barely see him from now on. (probably a half an hour a day) He was very nice this morning. Maybe that's why I feel better? Who knows. I've been shopping around for my own new bank online.

Yes, I was planning on leaving because I am not "marriage building" anymore. I figured that there is no use staying here unless maybe I go to the divorcing board. There are plenty of new people here (unfortunately) that need real marriage building advice.

Ultimately, I'll probably never leave this place. I'll probably always lurk and "silently support" the people here and post on occasion.

Maybe I'll join the goddess club! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/16/05 09:51 PM
Hi S,
(I hope you don't mind)

So often I don't know how to start -

I am glad you posted about your dad. It IS your thread, and you can post what you want. I still find it interresting the way you state some things. Think about it a minute......why would we mind? I mean, we think the world of you, and IT IS your thread. I think the way H treated you has hurt you more deeply than I first thought.

Sometimes I wonder if I ought to say things like this, but here goes. I almost commented on your dad that post just before you did, but I didnt know him well, and I was afraid to touch a place I may ought to stay away from. I am glad you posted about him. It is good to hear the kind of person he is, and get to know him better. Notice I said "the kind of person he is."

He has moved, but you will see him again.


I went upstairs to bed and really really cried for about 2 hours until I fell asleep. I don't remember the last time I cried like that. I didn't want him to see me cry. This is what I asked him to do, so why was I so upset? I kept thinking, "what have I done?" This is so final.


I am sorry for these feelings. They seem to come in ever case. That doesn't make it better, but you should know that.

It is so final. Your life will change beyond what you can see from where you are now. Some things will be very difficult, and you will sometimes wonder if you did the right thing. Some things will be much easier, and you will wonder why you waited so long. Remember the feelings you had of calm. You can seek them again in prayer, and you can find them again when you need strength.

As far as staying or leaving MB.

I have seen many that felt they needed to get away, and many that felt it helped them more to stay and continue to learn. I recommend prayer for that also.

From this end, it has been very enjoyable to get to know you, and speak to you from time to time. You are a more talented and a better person than you realize - even yet. I believe you will do really well the next few years away from the emotional abuse. I think it will help more than you yet realize.

I think the Goddess club would fit well.

I am sorry I was missing when you were in such pain. I hope you are doing better now. Please take care of yourself, this will affect your health if you are not careful.

I wish I could say that everything will be OK, but I know that there are still many difficult times before it is all over. Come as often as you feel like it. You can go to whatever thread you feel the most comfortable being on. Just don't feel like a failure, and stay away. You are not a failure, don't get caught in that trap. If you do, come see us, and we will set you straight, even if we have to bonk you with a 2x4. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Don't be afraid to talk about your feelings as you go along. It somtimes helps a great deal.

I want to remind you again who you are. If God is your father, you are daughter to a great heavnly King. That makes you a princess, and don't ever forget that. You will grow into it, if you keep it in mind, and work on it. I expect great things from you. I believe in you.

SS

PS -
I have little time for replies these next few weeks. I am so glad you have these other good helps - and please don't think I would ignore you on purpose.
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I asked H to leave - 04/27/05 10:42 PM
Hi SVB1,

Guess you really did leave us? I hope you are doing well.

You know, I had to D my 1st H. I tried for years, got him to MC twice, got him on meds once... but he was very unhealthy. He seemed to get worse as the years passed. I had to leave. I got to the point where I decided I could not waste another day of my life on this man. He was a black hole, and he would have sucked the life out of me for ANOTHER 10 years without giving it any thought, if I would have let him.

But it's hard to get to that point. It's hard to cross that point, and it's scary just after you do. Hang in there.

You sure dont have to leave. I've learned much here that I would have benefited from whether I was married or not. How about the Divorce board? Hopefully, you H will keep this simple, but some feedback can be good??

Please take care of yourself - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/28/05 03:01 PM
Hi Drucilla,

No, I haven't officially left. I don't think I will ever be able to leave this place. I have been busy, though, and did not even look at the board for quite a few days. On other days, I just lurked here and there.

Actually, I went to Chicago for a very long weekend. Amazingly enough, I got a phone call last week about a job in Chicago that I applied for MONTHS ago. I had an interview there on Monday morning. I think it went pretty well. They should be making a decision by the end of this week, so I'll know one way or another either today or tomorrow. The job is more in my field, but I would be taking a substantial pay cut (better benefits, though). I would also be back in Chicago -- very quickly! I'm feeling uncertain about this. Like I said, the pay will be less, but it might be nice to get away ASAP (if I'm offered the job.)

Otherwise, I am doing OK. My H (or STBXH?) is being very civil. Our D paperwork has not been filed yet. H and I are still both going to IC. I am getting a lot of insight from my C about my H. She is wondering WHY I have stayed with my H for so long. She says that he is definitely emotionally abusive, a sociopath, and a narcissist.

SS, you said, "I think the way H treated you has hurt you more deeply than I first thought." I think I might be realizing this, too. My C keeps pointing out that I keep defending my value as a human being. I don't even realize that I do it. Apparently I do and say other things that make H's treatment of me obvious to her. How have I gotten to this point?

Drucilla, I like the way that you put it, "He was a black hole, and he would have sucked the life out of me for ANOTHER 10 years without giving it any thought, if I would have let him." That's how I feel -- he's been sucking the life out of me. Was your H emotionally abusive?

You know what's weird, though? Hy H has been calling me almost every day at work. My co-worker has pointed it out to me too, "he calls you more now than he ever did before!" He calls me just to say, "I'm going to the store, do you want me to pick up anything?" (then he never did end up going to the store) or yesterday, it was "how do you look at the call log on this phone?" What's up with that?

svb
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I asked H to leave - 04/28/05 09:41 PM
Hi svb!!

So glad that you are still here. Can't talk long, my H is coming to dinner, we separated last weekend.

I wrote you a long response last time you posted and it is in internet lalaland!! Sorry, didn't have time to repost and then I thougth that you might have left.

Will try to write more later.

jls
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/28/05 09:44 PM
Hi !
You sound well, all things considered. You sound strong, like you have taken charge of your life, and are moving foreward.

Actually, I went to Chicago for a very long weekend. Amazingly enough, I got a phone call last week about a job in Chicago that I applied for MONTHS ago. I had an interview there on Monday morning. I think it went pretty well. They should be making a decision by the end of this week, so I'll know one way or another either today or tomorrow. The job is more in my field, but I would be taking a substantial pay cut (better benefits, though).

You can always take it, and spend more time looking for something better. Depends on what your goals are. It could take some time to find just what you want. I have no idea what you do.

I would also be back in Chicago -- very quickly! I'm feeling uncertain about this. Like I said, the pay will be less, but it might be nice to get away ASAP (if I'm offered the job.)

Unless there are legal problems, it would be good emotionally for you to be away from H, and close to family. If you forsee legal problems, and him contesting what you want, it would be easier to stay there until it is over.

Otherwise, I am doing OK. My H (or STBXH?) is being very civil. Our D paperwork has not been filed yet. H and I are still both going to IC. I am getting a lot of insight from my C about my H. She is wondering WHY I have stayed with my H for so long. She says that he is definitely emotionally abusive, a sociopath, and a narcissist.

What are your thoughts as she tells these types of things to you? I would guess you don't complain about him on your own, but she asks questions to draw you out. More about what he DOES, and how he TALKS TO YOU. I would guess you have a hard time saying some of the things. I also think you have lots of little lights going on in your head as she discusses this with you.

SS smiles.
Of course, I haven't been there, so tell me how it really is.


SS, you said, "I think the way H treated you has hurt you more deeply than I first thought." I think I might be realizing this, too. My C keeps pointing out that I keep defending my value as a human being. I don't even realize that I do it. Apparently I do and say other things that make H's treatment of me obvious to her. How have I gotten to this point?

Don't worry so much how you got there. All of us react to the treatment we recieve from others. You loved him, and trusted him to take care of you. You believed he cared for you, and took the things he said to heart, and tried to change so he would love you, and respect you.

I don't know how this could have been different really. I think you can learn some things, and keep in mimd again - find someone that values YOU, and doesn't put you down verbally. It needs to be someone that is secure in who they are, and can build up others. Not someone that tears down others to prop up lagging self esteem.

You may have noticed by now that some of the things I have said to you over time, are to re-enforce to you that you do have value as a human being. I wish more than anything that you do understand this. You have value beyond anyting we can say with words. God bends his will to making sure you know it, and that you can realize your dreams.

He knows your name, and every thing about you, and intends for you to succeed. Think about that for a few minutes. Think of what you mean to God, the creator. You (we) are his most important work, and his glory is in seeing you succeed. You are not an after thought, or a problem. You are his child whom he loves, and will help as often as help is needed.

I HOPE YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. YOU NEED TO KNOW, SO THAT YOU MAY LIVE UP TO YOUR POTIENTAL.


You know what's weird, though? Hy H has been calling me almost every day at work. My co-worker has pointed it out to me too, "he calls you more now than he ever did before!" He calls me just to say, "I'm going to the store, do you want me to pick up anything?" (then he never did end up going to the store) or yesterday, it was "how do you look at the call log on this phone?" What's up with that?

This could be more than one thing. I really think it is for more than one reason -

He sees you as more of an equal now. You stood up to him, and you didn't do things his way. He values your opinion more because of that. Since he knows you well, and is comfortable talking to you, he calls you more.

Part of his past anger, and bad treatment of you stemmed from his planning to leave. Now that it is a done deal, he doesn't need to be distant, or angry. I think part of that persona of his, was to protect himself from emotional closeness. If he was emotionally close, then it would be hard to leave. Now, it doesn't matter.

These are a couple of thoughts, I think he is a complicated person. It's too bad he made up his mind such a long time ago, and chose what I see as being a terrible solution to problems he never even spoke to you about.

What do you think?

I would like to know some things -

Are you getting enough support from friends and family?
Enough support that you are OK.


Do you feel like you are making personal progress?
That is, progress in understanding, and progress in making this work.

What is most difficult for you right now? (meaning for the next few weeks, not right this minute.)

Can you tell me why still seeking takes time to write to you?

Please know that this last question is not asked lightly, it concerns some of the things we have discussed.

May God bless you to know how to proceed.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I asked H to leave - 04/28/05 10:19 PM
svb1,

I've been looking for you from time to time - to see what news you have from your GPS.

Reading over your thread, I just wanted to say that (don't take this personally), you are just the sort of woman I would be looking for if I were D'ed. I say that, just to say that there are going to be lots of guys interested in you when the time comes - and if you don't want to be alone, you won't be - and if you want to have kids you can probably find a good man who wants that too.

I don't know if there is any hope for your marriage right now, but it's good to see that you don't seem very afraid of the future - you don't seem particularly depressed (as your H claims that you are).

I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I'm not fishing in the MB pond for post-D mermaids. I just wanted to put in an encouraging word.

Now, about that GPS. I'm burning with curiosity. Don't you even want to know anymore? Sometimes, the hunt is fun even if you don't really care to bag the animal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You're done with your H, but don't you want to hunt him down in his secret haunts just for the pure sport of it?

Where's that H of yours going anyway? What's he doing there? Who is he really anyway?

I'm curious.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/29/05 06:54 PM
JLS,

Can't talk long, my H is coming to dinner, we separated last weekend.

I know... I've been reading your thread. I'm really happy to see that you've got some MB powerhouses giving you some great advice.

How did the dinner go, BTW? Did you knock his socks off?
I hope it went well.

I wrote you a long response last time you posted and it is in internet lalaland!!

I've got a couple out there, too.

Hi AD,

Thank you for your post of encouragement. Don't worry, I haven't taken it the wrong way! I understand what you are saying. It has given me some more hope about my future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW, when I spoke in a previous post of mine about some of the fellows on MB that give me hope (by being good men and really caring about their marriages - just KNOWING that they exist), you were one of the ones that I had in mind. I considered naming names, but I was afraid of leaving people out, so I didn't name any. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Your W is lucky to have you. I wish that she would just wake up and realize it.

I have been following your thread with interest. You are the only person on MB (that I am aware of) that has M someone from another country and is going through the whole citizenship process. (We are way past that now, but still...) And as for helping your W with her classes and getting much less than appreciation? Yeah, I've been there, too.

Just know that more people read your thread than you think and support you silently. You are not alone. I wish you the best.

As for the GPS device, you cracked me up when you said this, "Sometimes, the hunt is fun even if you don't really care to bag the animal."

My GPS device, unfortunately, is still in H's car which is STILL in the repair shop. We're going on a month now (and almost up to $6K in repairs)! The batteries are long dead, I'm sure. So I couldn't use the GPS device at this moment, even if I wanted to.

If I don't get this job in Chicago (I haven't heard anything yet and I'm getting doubtful) I might still use the GPS for a while -- and maybe take off a day or two to see if I can find out where he goes. I'm still curious, too. Of course, if I DO get the job, I will most likely be gone in the blink of an eye and won't have time for any more hunting!

SS,

I need more time to get back to you. You've really got me thinking. Where is the smiley face with the smoke coming out of its ears? I need to add it here.

svb
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I asked H to leave - 04/29/05 08:49 PM
Quote
... H's car which is STILL in the repair shop. We're going on a month now (and almost up to $6K in repairs)!

Wow! I hope your bill doesn't run up too much more.

Quote
The batteries are long dead, I'm sure.

You might be surprised. I think I have the same unit and have gotten something like 25 days of use on a set of batteries - and that is with the car being driven. There is a motion detector which shuts off the power completely when the device is not moved for more than a few minutes.

You sure are moving on quickly! I'm dragging my feet.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/29/05 10:56 PM
AD,

I don't think the costs will run much more. I hope not. It will be covered by insurance anyway. H's car is a 2002 SUV. It has front and back end damage.

Also, it doesn't look like I'll be getting that job in Chicago. They said I'd hear something by the end of this week, and I haven't heard anything. So I guess I won't be moving on that quickly afterall. I think my big job this weekend will be to work on our D paperwork, and then mail it off on Monday.

SS,

You can always take it, and spend more time looking for something better. Depends on what your goals are. It could take some time to find just what you want. I have no idea what you do.

Like I mentioned above, it looks like I don't have to worry about this anymore.

My choices now are

1. Put in notice at work and move back to Chicago without a job and look for one there.

2. Stay here in PA and continue to work at my current job at least until I'm vested in my pension (end of September) - THEN continue to look for a job in Chicago and move. (and hope that my H finds his own apartment)

Unless there are legal problems, it would be good emotionally for you to be away from H, and close to family. If you forsee legal problems, and him contesting what you want, it would be easier to stay there until it is over.

I don't expect that my H will contest anything.

What are your thoughts as she tells these types of things to you?

Believe it or not, when she tells me these things about him, I feel relieved. I guess it goes back to the idea that it helps me to know that I'm not crazy - that the problem lies more with HIM than with ME. I know that I should already understand this, but it's not so simple.

I would guess you don't complain about him on your own, but she asks questions to draw you out. More about what he DOES, and how he TALKS TO YOU. I would guess you have a hard time saying some of the things. I also think you have lots of little lights going on in your head as she discusses this with you.

She figured out that my H is controlling before I even said a word to her. We started out discussing my anxiety and behaviors of mine that are only caused by feeling a lack of control in my life (according to her). First she asked me about my parents, and THEN she zeroed in on my H.

She does ask me questions about him - about what he does and what he says. She says that his behaviors are CLASSIC. She says that he is very selfish and immature. (Meanwhile, I think in my head, "but wait, I'M selfish and immature - that's what he tells ME!") So I guess you can say, yes, those little lights are going off in my head.

You may have noticed by now that some of the things I have said to you over time, are to re-enforce to you that you do have value as a human being. I wish more than anything that you do understand this.

I have noticed that you have been saying these things to me. A lot of this is all coming together.

I re-read this whole thread today. I've also thought about some of the other posts that I've written here on MB. I look it all over and it seems so clear to me. It must have been so clear to you from the beginning. How could I not realize that he doesn't really care about me - only himself? How could I not REALLY see that he's just been stringing me along?

Are you getting enough support from friends and family?
Enough support that you are OK.

I do feel like I'm getting enough support. Especially from everyone here, too.

Do you feel like you are making personal progress?
That is, progress in understanding, and progress in making this work.

I do. Like I said, it all seems to be coming together. I'm really NOT as bad as my H makes me out to be sometimes.

I've been thinking about something I heard on the Dr. Phil show, too. He said that you should never be in a relationship where the other person makes you feel bad about yourself. If they do, then the cost is too high. After spending time with someone, you should feel BETTER about yourself.

I think I've progressed to the point that I will never go back to where I used to be (with H). My mother has the fear that if my H makes any positive changes or comments in the near future, I will change my mind and go running back to him. I think I'm way past that.

What is most difficult for you right now? (meaning for the next few weeks, not right this minute.)

It's difficult living with H right now. I feel so awkward. It's really a good thing that he's working nights now. I don't even see him 30 minutes a day - it's more like 10.

If this job doesn't come through, which most likely it won't, I'm not sure what my next step should be.

Can you tell me why still seeking takes time to write to you?

Uhhh... You want me to realize that I have value and you want to let me know that people care??? Did I get it right?

I was seriously looking back at your old posts and I was ABOUT to copy and past something that you said here - instead of answering the question by myself. That would be cheating, though, wouldn't it?

It's funny, but sometimes my C will ask me a question and I will be CLUELESS. I just look at her and go ... Uhhhhhhh... what do you mean by that? But of course you were there so I'm sure you already know that.

For instance she asked me, "Did you realize that you're defending your value as a human being?" I said, "I did? I am?" "why do you feel that you have to defend your value?" Then I say, "uuuuuhhhhhh? I don't know." There are other such instances, but I can't think of any right now.

It looks like I've got my work cut out for me. I'm getting better, though.

svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/30/05 12:12 AM
I'll reply in more depth later - I need to go now.

Can you tell me why still seeking takes time to write to you?

Uhhh... You want me to realize that I have value and you want to let me know that people care??? Did I get it right?


In a way this was a trick question, because there are lots of reasons I post to you. You could have said any one of those reasons and been right - which you did.

What I was really getting at though, is not that I want to help you REALIZE you have value, it is that YOU HAVE VALUE.

You are valueable. You have great worth. Yes, it will help you if you come to know deep down that you are valueable, but I post to you because that value is already there. It is part of you, it is who you are.

You are worth it.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 04/30/05 12:54 AM
Hi SS,

I thought of one more thing.

My counselor says that I have a difficult time discussing my feelings with her. I can discuss everyone else, but not myself. We didn't get around to discussing it much more - time ran out.

I think I just figured this out. I think I'm afraid to discuss my feelings because I am afraid that I will be WRONG or STUPID. See how the lights are coming on?

It's like you said --- ages ago --- about what my H said about me being cold. I can't be wrong about being cold, right? If I'm cold, I'm cold! Everyone is different. But I guess I'm not allowed to have my own feelings.

I'm just really getting it TONIGHT.

ok, I hear H stirring upstairs. Time to go!
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 04/30/05 02:25 PM
Yes, you are allowed to have your own feeligs.

Also understand that this is a PROCESS. It is not a one time event where you will know everything right now today.

Please don't think you should have known all these things before, we all learn, and there are things you know that I do not.

I can tell you that all your life you will have the light go on, and you will say "Oh, wow, this is neat. I learned something - now I am so much smarter, I've got things figured out now."

It will happen over, and over, and over. We never really arrive (when it comes to knowledge) but we continue to grow and mature.

Your mother and brother watched this happen to you. That is why they wanted you to leave right away. They wanted you to be free.

Don't be afraid of living your life. You have great ability, and you will be successful. As AD said, when you want to find someone, you will find them.

Now, day to day is still a lot of work, but the joy will come.

Smile - it's good for your face.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 05/03/05 07:00 PM
Well, my initial D paperwork is almost done. I only have to have it signed and notarized, and then I can send it in with the filing fee.

H and I discussed our financial situation. I laid out my plans for dividing everything and we are in agreement. No surprise here.

I found out that we have to wait at least 90 days for a D in Pennsylvania - not 30 days as I originally read somewhere.

As for my options on what to do from here, I think I have opted for #2 listed above. (Stay here in PA and continue to work at my current job at least until I'm vested in my pension (end of September) - THEN continue to look for a job in Chicago and move. (and hope that my H finds his own apartment). Since a D takes at least 3 months, and I have only 5 till I'm vested, I might as well stay.

H hasn't mentioned any plans to me about his future. I don't know what his chances are in getting these jobs that he's applied for. I don't know if he's planning on getting another place to live. I'd rather him find another apartment instead of me at this point. I'm the one that found this townhouse and everything is in my name - phone, cable, electricity, etc. H always left me to set up everything. (then he would get upset that the bills don't come in his name.)

So right now we are living sort of as roommates. I don't know what we are. We still share a joint checking account -until our direct deposits from work start going into our separate checking accts. Until then, I'm still paying everything from the joint acct- then we will split everything 50/50. I wish him the best of luck in balancing his checkbook in the future. He doesn't have the patience for it, and he's not very good at it. (he knows it himself - that's why he "lets" me do it.) Oh well, I guess it's not my problem anymore. He's the one that wants to be free -- he's going to have to live with all of the consequences.

I guess, ultimately, that nothing has really changed. I think he might be staying until he knows what is going on with his job. He always gets everything that he wants.

How fair is all of this? He's the one that really wanted to be free - but he never told me to my face how he felt. I'm the one that always had to bring up the difficult discussions. Now I am the one that has to do all the D paperwork, too.

I know that this is really probably the best for me, too, (a D) at this point, but still, it makes me cranky that I always have to do everything.

OT --

My fish aren't getting along.

I've had my 2 new fish for about a month now, and never had any problems. Now, since last night, the 2 new fish keep chasing Lenny around. They're being bullies. Poor Lenny. He's a little bigger than the other fish, too. I guess he's a lover and not a fighter.

H called me at work today to say that he took the new fish out of the 10 gal tank and put them in the 1 gal tank. (He didn't think it was fair that Lenny go in the little tank - he's not causing any problems)

H said he wants to teach the new fish a lesson. Can you teach fish a lesson?

And since when do goldfish not get along? Aren't they the most peaceful fish around?

Does anyone know anything about goldfish? I might go to the pet store and buy one of those tank dividers. I think they have tank dividers.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 05/03/05 08:03 PM
There is something else that I've been thinking about.

I am going to completely focus on myself now. I think I am going to join Weight Watchers (at least on-line) and I am going to officially join a gym - especially if I'm going to be staying in this state a while longer. I know we have a little gym in our apt. complex, but I want to go somewhere where they have a pool - for water aerobics and lap swimming, too. I might try yoga, too. H didn't like the idea of me joining a gym, but I don't care what he thinks anymore.

I might take another class this summer, too - maybe a nutrition class.

I think I might do as much sightseeing as I can this spring/summer, too, before I leave the east coast.

I started to re-discover myself in plan B, and I think I am going to continue to do that. I can't worry about what H thinks anymore. He doesn't want to be a part of my life, anyway. It's his loss.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 05/03/05 09:24 PM
OK, just when I completely put that interview OUT of my mind and made NEW plans. (just discussed in DETAIL)

I was offered the position in Chicago.

Substantial pay cut, though.

Now what??? argh!

Let me think

positives ---
be away from H nearly immediately
job is in Chicago - near family
good benefits
foot in the door - can move up in the org. later
can move right away and look for another job in the area
somebody wants me!

negatives
will have to come back to PA in 3 months to go to court
for D
MUCH less pay (nearly 20,000 a year less!)
won't have much time to move
will be vested in 401k in current job, but won't be
vested in pension - will lose it if I leave now.

Opinions anyone? (ss, on the job/M situation- not what kind of food you like!)

thanks,
svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: I asked H to leave - 05/03/05 09:35 PM
S,
This is one where I don't think I can help much.

Well maybe a little.

I'm going to flip a coin..........
Heads, you stay,
Tails you go to Chicago.

SS flips........he catches, and looks at it (its a quarter BTW) It is ..........

Now, you tell me what you want to see in my hand - heads, or tails?

SS
Posted By: StillHereMakingIt Re: I asked H to leave - 05/03/05 09:36 PM
If you're anything like me, the security means a great deal to me...hard to make a jump like that. Take the vestiture out of the equation...unless you are anywhere close to retirement age, the pension shouldn't factor in...not that you shouldn't think about retirement, but that ANYTHING could happen to the company before the pension is paid out (bankruptcy, bought out, etc.) so the pension may not be a factor...does that change your thinking?
Posted By: svb1 Re: I asked H to leave - 05/03/05 10:04 PM
SS,

I don't know what side of the coin I want to see in your hand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

SHMI,

I understand what you're saying about the pension. I'll take it out. The new org. has a better retirement plan anyway (for now).

The substantial pay cut bothers me. Not that money is everything -- I would be happy as long as I have enough to support myself and a little more for saving -- but it's a huge pay cut. I wonder if I can talk to them about raising the offer. I've never done that before.
Posted By: still seeking Stay, or move - 05/04/05 12:11 AM
How does it hurt to ask them about a pay raise? Ask away, and see what they say.


The coin thing works well with a real coin, in person. I have never had anyone fail to call it in the air, and it always tells what their wishes are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I guess it does not work well across fiber optic lines.

How soon do you need to give them an answer?

Now, just for the record, I know nothing about fish. For sure they can't bother Lenny if they aren't in the same tank though. Maybe you can take Lenny, and leave the mean ones with H. (poor attempt at humor) Just leave them in the tub.

It sounds like you have much to do, but it gives you focus. I worry you will get moved, and have a bad crying spell when it all hits.

If IC is helping, that could be a factor in your decision too. It wasn't on your pro/con list.

I think every thing you do for your health - both emotional, and physical will be a good thing. Do you have any hobbies that you can work on in the short term?

Do you sleep well at night these days? Any problem with laying awake thinking?

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Stay, or move - 05/04/05 01:13 PM
Hi svb,
Just a quick hello before I take S7 to school.

I really wonder how you're doing? As good as it is to hear you are getting on with it all, I have to guess that you have some really bad moments. You CAN tell us about it if you want, or vent here. You know that, dontcha'?

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Stay, or move - 05/05/05 03:17 AM
Well, today I talked to the people offering me the job, and I asked for more money. I have nothing to lose by asking.
I amazed myself by even asking. I am not an assertive person (if you haven't figured out by now.)

The ball is in their court now. I have to wait for them to get back to me.

I'm still unsure about what I should do. If they agree to offer me the salary that I requested, (though still less than I make now) I might just go ahead and take it. I'll have a fresh start very quickly. Though I will make less, I have opportunities to move up in the company. Also, although I make more now, I'm not in my preferred career and my job is not very pleasant.

My main concern now is -- can I file for D in one state and then move out of state? Does that affect anything?

Well, we'll see what they say first about the job.

SS,

The coin thing works well with a real coin, in person. I have never had anyone fail to call it in the air, and it always tells what their wishes are.

I guess it does not work well across fiber optic lines.


Thanks anyway, SS, it was worth a try. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, just for the record, I know nothing about fish. For sure they can't bother Lenny if they aren't in the same tank though. Maybe you can take Lenny, and leave the mean ones with H. (poor attempt at humor) Just leave them in the tub.

Actually, I thought this was really funny. The fish can nip H in HIS behind. The fish are actually back in the big tank. I put one in last night, and the other this morning. They get along well now. Maybe H taught the fish a lesson afterall. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

BTW, you asked me once if I saw Finding Nemo. I did. I love that movie. I hope they do a Finding Nemo part 2, though. I have to know what happens to the fish in the bags floating on the water at the end of the movie.

It sounds like you have much to do, but it gives you focus. I worry you will get moved, and have a bad crying spell when it all hits.

I do have a lot to do. All of this is definitely helping to take my mind off of my H and all that has happened. You're right, it might hit me all at once if I get to Chicago and find myself suddenly alone.

I think every thing you do for your health - both emotional, and physical will be a good thing. Do you have any hobbies that you can work on in the short term?

If I take this new job, I won't have time to work on any hobbies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I don't want to think about all that I'll have to do in the next few weeks.

Do you sleep well at night these days? Any problem with laying awake thinking?

Believe it or not, I am sleeping well, thanks. I think so much during the day, I'm wiped out by night. I've cut down on caffeine, too. I think that helps, too.

jls,

I really wonder how you're doing? As good as it is to hear you are getting on with it all, I have to guess that you have some really bad moments. You CAN tell us about it if you want, or vent here. You know that, dontcha'?

I'm doing ok, jls. I think I was much worse when we first discussed D and decided to D. I'm getting used to the idea now. Things are moving so fast now, I've been really focusing on the future, and not the past. Like SS said, it might hit me later when I'm suddenly on my own and everything slows down.

Honestly, I think YOU are having a more difficult time at this point than I am. For my H and me, our M is over. I think I'm beginning to accept this. Amazingly enough, H's actions don't bother me anymore as they did in the past. It's HIS life now - his actions don't affect ME anymore. I guess I just don't care anymore. It's weird. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I'm tired.

Still, I might have moments where I'll need to vent in the future. I promise I will always vent here if I need to (as long as you promise to vent on this board as much as you need, too)

You know I read your threads.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Stay, or move - 05/05/05 11:32 PM
I am back to vent already.

I got turned down for more money. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what to do now. I was already picturing myself in Chicago and making plans for my future - there.

Now I can't help but feel a little depressed. If I don't take the job, I'll still be stuck here. Financially, I'd be much more comfortable here, and I'd feel more comfortable staying in the apt. while H moves out (I guess it's a trust thing). It would be good to be here until the D is final. BUT... I'm still here. Still stuck. Stuck in the same job. Stuck in the same apt. that is full of memories and stuff that H and I purchased together for our future.

I can either take this job and move on and hope to move up quickly in this new company, or I can finish old business here, save $$$ and plan to leave in the fall after I am able to leave with my pension money as well as my 401k money.

There is also a little part of me that would hate to turn down this job because I just hate to say "no." Is that being silly?

I feel so bummed right now and <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. Why is it so difficult for me to make decisions?
Posted By: svb1 Re: Stay, or move - 05/06/05 12:28 PM
I'm not going to take the new job.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Stay, or move - 05/06/05 03:54 PM
I lied.

I'm taking the new job.

It's funny, but I made the decision to stay, and I was depressed. Then I changed my mind - and now I'm happy. I'm a little scared, but happy.

I guess it's like your coin trick, SS.

Well, this time it's a done deal. I already sent off my resignation letter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It's a new start to a new life for me!! Let the healing begin!!!
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Stay, or move - 05/06/05 05:02 PM
Oh svb,

I am so GLAD for you! I hope that it works out, but I have a good vibe about it.

i don't know how you were standing it, being there with STBXH, indefinitely. Well, I'm sure tha Sept. seemed forever away, plus then you would still have to find another job in Chicago.

I really think that you made the right decision, of course, what do i know?!

Please let us know when you are going. You will be fairly close to me. You can come and visit the "Zoo", no admission price and free snacks and beverages!

jls
Posted By: still seeking Re: Stay, or move - 05/06/05 06:32 PM
I feel so bummed right now. Why is it so difficult for me to make decisions?

If you notice - about half the threads on this site have this, or something similar written on them about half the time:
"Not sure what to do."

Oh, no, you are not the only one by a long ways.

It's funny, but I made the decision to stay, and I was depressed. Then I changed my mind - and now I'm happy. I'm a little scared, but happy.

Yes, I think this tells you what you wanted to know. Money can be a great help, but it just a help to us, it is not LIFE. One of my sons lived in Guatmalla for a couple of years. He lived with people that had dirt floors, and worked from sun up to sun down growing enough food to stay alive. He says they were very happy people.

I am glad your decision is made, and you can move foreward.

JLS -
I think perhaps your thread had a few surpprise turns in it. What are you thinking? Please don't be afraid to say what you really feel. One of the reasons I could help SVB1 is because she has always been honest. I believe you are to, but keep this in mind, becasue it is important. Part of this is that she didn't hold back things, she said what she was thinking.

Do you mind if I say a few things?
I think sometimes we ask questions on MB thinking there is an answer - but sometimes there are none. If you notice, SVB1 was not able to repair her marriage, but SHE got answers, and I believe she will be happier anyway - because of what she learned about herself.

Sometimes what we learn does save the marriage, sometimes not. I am among those that fear for you because this is your H's third time. To me it does not speak well for his life skills. If this is going to work, it will take all that you have - and it may take some that he DOES NOT have.

Anyway, your best chance will be when you are the most ready, and it looks like the consensus is that more preparation will serve you well.

Learning to live Dr Harleys rules. Protection, care, no LB's.

I have been here (on MB) three years. It has been a struggle for me to make the improvements even after I knew what I needed to do. I still have a ways to go, but things are much better at home.

We don't know what will happen in your case. We don't know if the marriage can, or will be saved. All you can do is be the best jls you can be, and hope that is enough.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Stay, or move - 05/09/05 09:16 PM
Hello jls,

I would be honored to come down and visit your 'ZOO'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It sounds like fun to me.

What have you been up to lately? How are you doing? I haven't seen you posting in a few days.

Hi SS,

I am glad that the decision is made and that I can move forward, too.

I told H on Friday night about my decision to take the job and move. I thought he would be more negative about it. I thought he would give me a hard time. This decision of mine is really forcing him to move out on his own, too. He won't stay in the same townhouse - he's going to get a smaller apartment instead. He didn't really react as I expected. He's just rolling with it.

I have been feeling pretty positive on most days. The focus on the future really helps. Today is not a very good day, though. I am having some doubts. All of the moves that I have done in my lifetime have been with my H. It's hard to believe that he is not a part of this. It makes me sad. Today I have been wondering if I had really stuck with plan B would everything have turned out differently? Or would the end result have been the same anyway? I know, deep down, the truth, but I can't help wondering about it sometimes.

Oh, and everyone seems sad to see me leave -- friends, coworkers, my BOSS....

everyone but my H! He expresses no feelings whatsoever.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Stay, or move - 05/10/05 08:15 PM
Hi SVB1,
Oh shoot, Hi S.

I am glad that the decision is made and that I can move forward, too.

I think I would hate to have all the thoughts going round in my head that are going round in yours. I think It would make me dizzy. What did your mom say when you spoke to her on Sunday? She seems like a wise person, I would be interrested in hearing what she said.

I told H on Friday night about my decision to take the job and move. I thought he would be more negative about it. I thought he would give me a hard time. This decision of mine is really forcing him to move out on his own, too. He won't stay in the same townhouse - he's going to get a smaller apartment instead. He didn't really react as I expected. He's just rolling with it.

He got what he was going to do anyway. The only thing that is different is the time table. Really, you saved him some work, he may realize that now, and be happy about it.

I have been feeling pretty positive on most days. The focus on the future really helps. Today is not a very good day, though. I am having some doubts.

A good future is nice, but we live NOW. NOW is not fun for you. Those doubts are natural (meaning they allways happen), and when they are in our minds, they feel real. Your decisions came from thoughtful reflection, over time. Doubts come and go and don't stand up to logical thought. I am sorry neither JLS or I came to talk to you that bad day. I wish I had more time to post, and that I could be more regular to answer.

All of the moves that I have done in my lifetime have been with my H. It's hard to believe that he is not a part of this. It makes me sad.

It should make you sad. If it didn't, I wouldn't be able to help you. It means you care.

Today I have been wondering if I had really stuck with plan B would everything have turned out differently? Or would the end result have been the same anyway? I know, deep down, the truth, but I can't help wondering about it sometimes.

I can't see anything that you should have done differently this last year. Of course, I am not an expert ......but......
But, you gave your H many chances, and he continued to hide the truth. His reaction tells you how he feels. For him, it was already over. I think you know he was going to do this anyway.

Oh, and everyone seems sad to see me leave -- friends, coworkers, my BOSS....

Good grief, of course they are sad to see you leave. Remember, you HAVE value. You had it when young, you had it after you married, and you still have it. Don't you think they can see your value, and that they will miss it?

I wish you could see yourself as others see you. I think it would take your breath away.

everyone but my H! He expresses no feelings whatsoever.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


The one person you want most to miss you, and he shows no sign if it.

You value him, because.........well, because you value almost everyone. He does not value you, and I have no idea why. I would guess he does not value God much either. If you look at what he values, and what he does not - I think being away from him will be good for you.

I am sure by now you are feeling better. Don't be afraid to tell your mom how you are feeling, and what your fears are. She already knows, but she can help better if you talk to her about them yourself.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Stay, or move - 05/10/05 08:16 PM
jls,

Please let us know how you are doing.

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Stay, or move - 05/10/05 09:47 PM
Hi svb and SS,

I don't want to threadjack so will post on my thread later tonite,hopefully.

svb,

OF COURSE you have doubts. Of course you would be bummed sometimes. What thread and who was it on here (MB) that said make sure you grieve and don't cover it all up. Yet you have been grieving for a long time, haven't you? It's like the death of a loved one, only of a M, longterm also. It takes a least a year or more to grieve properly for a loss, yet when you lose a loved one to a terminal illness instead of an accident or such, you have already begun to grieve from the time that they were diagnosed. You might hold some small hope, but grieving is still taking place. Let it finish, though, svb. You have been with H for a long time!

I think that making a decision was bound to help. I was afraid that you would go the other way. It seemed more practical(something that I am not always), but this way seemed beter emotionally. Nobody could choose for you and we could have all been wrong anyway. Only you really know you.

Thanks for asking about me, you guys. It makes me feel a little better.

Oh, svb, I will give you my email before you leave!! And then we can make a plan for your visit someday!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/16/05 02:27 PM
Well, I've officially filed for D, I can't remember if I mentioned that already. The paperwork has already come back with a case number. I think I just have to wait for a court date now.

My first day on my new job will be June 13. This Friday will be my last day at my current job. I've been packing and trying to get everything in order. I'll move during the week of June 5.

Everything seems to be rolling along. Most of the time I think I'm positive and optimistic about my future. Of course, I have my moments of doubt (as above!).

I think I would hate to have all the thoughts going round in my head that are going round in yours. I think It would make me dizzy.

You know, SS, my H is not helping with these thoughts! Last night, H wanted to go out to see a movie. We saw Monster-in-Law. (very funny). He held hands with me when we walked, just like we've always done. !!!??? On the way back he wanted to stop to buy ice cream. This all confuses me so much! Why does he do this?

Maybe we shouldn't have gone. I felt giddy like a school girl all night. I probably should have told him that it's not a good idea - we're getting a D.

The whole night I kept thinking how nice it would be if he could move with me back to Chicago. It would be as if we're starting out all over again. I have been wondering if he feels doubts sometimes, too. Maybe he's not really sure if he wants to D, either.

I don't know, but the more I think about it, it's probably just more to his advantage to be nice to me. Somehow, I think he wants to keep me as a friend, just in case. I'm sure he knows that I'll always help him with whatever in the future.

I think he's stressed out about $$$ already. He's stressed about how much it will cost him to be in an apartment on his own. He's worried about the car. He finally got his car back (after $8400 in repairs). The insurance company (of the girl that hit him) has only paid half of the damages so far. The rest is on his new credit card. He is being told that he has to pay our deductible. (which doesn't make sense to me) I think he's afraid that they won't pay the rest, or at least before his credit card bill is due.

So, yes, I am dizzy with all of these thoughts.

Does he have doubts, too, and is he now realizing what he is losing? or does he want me to be available in the future in case he needs to use me?

Maybe being ALONE is not looking so appealing to him afterall.

sooo confusing.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/17/05 12:03 AM
Well, I've officially filed for D, I can't remember if I mentioned that already. The paperwork has already come back with a case number. I think I just have to wait for a court date now.

Did she say date?
Court????
Court who?
Is he cute?

Ok, calm down, I got it the first time. No, I can't remember you telling us that you had filed.

My first day on my new job will be June 13. This Friday will be my last day at my current job. I've been packing and trying to get everything in order. I'll move during the week of June 5.

Do you have any concerns about the move?


Everything seems to be rolling along. Most of the time I think I'm positive and optimistic about my future. Of course, I have my moments of doubt (as above!).

Yes, as above, and also as, in the quotes below.


You know, SS, my H is not helping with these thoughts! Last night, H wanted to go out to see a movie. We saw Monster-in-Law. (very funny). He held hands with me when we walked, just like we've always done. !!!??? On the way back he wanted to stop to buy ice cream. This all confuses me so much! Why does he do this?

Honestly, I don't know.
I can speculate though...............
Do you think he is just doing it because he is getting what he wanted? Wasn't, he was kind of distant when he thought HE was going to have to D you? Didn't he treat you badly BEFORE you made up your mind?

Maybe we shouldn't have gone. I felt giddy like a school girl all night. I probably should have told him that it's not a good idea - we're getting a D.

Do you understand why you DID go?
Your IC should be helping you with these kinds of things - you should have an answer for me.

The whole night I kept thinking how nice it would be if he could move with me back to Chicago. It would be as if we're starting out all over again. I have been wondering if he feels doubts sometimes, too. Maybe he's not really sure if he wants to D, either.

I can't look into his mind, but his actions for nearly the last 18 months did not show care and protection for you. That is a very long time with no change. There are other factors also, as you have discussed with IC.

I don't know, but the more I think about it, it's probably just more to his advantage to be nice to me. Somehow, I think he wants to keep me as a friend, just in case. I'm sure he knows that I'll always help him with whatever in the future.

This is consistant with his other actions. He has something to gain from being nice to you, so he is nice.

I am thought of as an optimist by my friends. Please forgive me for looking at the dark side, but I have not seen anything in what you relate to show he has CHANGED HIS HEART. As long as we have been hearing about him, it has always been "how can he make things go his way."

I believe people can change if THEY WANT TO. I don't see anything here that would point to his wanting to do things differenthy.

Have his driving patterns changed any? Or is it hard to tell?


So, yes, I am dizzy with all of these thoughts.

We continue to pray for you, for your success, for you to know the truth.

I would suppose he IS thinking about the results of his actions on his lifestyle. YOU made it possible for him to visit his family for a month. YOU have taken care of day to day things - always. Please let him learn his lessons, and don't take his education away from him. (by doing things for him still.)

Does he have doubts, too, and is he now realizing what he is losing? or does he want me to be available in the future in case he needs to use me?

Remember, sometimes we don't get the answers we want. I would like to see you concentrate on YOUR future, not on his thoughts.


sooo confusing.

There are many things that I do not understand about the world. I spend very little time trying to figure them out though, because I know I can't do anything about them, even if I could understand.

That was a hint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

In a way, I didn't have to do this post, because I think you already know every thing I said. I just thought you wanted to hear it again, so here it is.

SS smiles -
I admit, I still worry sometimes.

God be with you.

SS

PS - JLS
I am still thinking about you. Wishing there were some way to SHOW you how the suggestions from Pep, Ark, and others would translate in to how you interact with your H. Wanted you to know people care.

All the best to you too.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/17/05 02:46 AM
svb,

Hey girl!! Filed, huh? That must have been hard.

I am gonna put S7 to bed and (hopefully) get up and come back to PC. Just wanted u to know that I have been thinking about you!!

jls
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/17/05 05:00 AM
ok, phew. forgot that I had BOTH white "blankies" in wash. Got thru that! Then added to MY thread, and now will bump u right over the top of me. No prob.

Anyway, been thinking svb. Filing must have been really tuff. This separation has been hard enuf, but I'm worried right now, 'cause I am now getting to used to it. H is calling ALOT and being very nice. That helps. The first week was bad, the 2nd week was harder, now I SEEM ok.

After reading your post, tho, I am not so sure. I keep telling myself that if things don't work out, I will be alright. But that D is for Dam^! Not trying to bring you down, just realizing what you must really be going through.

Really svb, you will be fine. I can't believe that your last day is going to be Fri. This Friday? Then you will be very busy and anticipating the move. How exciting. And I was thinking about the less income thing. You will be near family, you will not need a large place and you will not need to support H. Just food for you and Lenny.

SS is right, as usual. Alot of your questions might not ever be answered. There might not even BE answers! Still, you must ask them sometimes.

Yeah, I don't get the whole holding hands, date-like thing, either. Maybe he has a lot of questions also.

(Again, SS, right.) Maybe you did all the work for him again. He was too chicken to ask for a D, now you took care of that. And he still doesn't look like the "bad guy". Some people really worry about that. (My H never wants to take ANY blame. I get tired of the guilt thing tho. I'm ALWAYS the bad guy to him.)

svb, you did everything you could to save your M. Now you are saving YOU! I like the you that I have read so much about. Hope I can get to know you offline someday. (And that you're not a 6 ft bald biker wierdo in real life-the one that I warn my D14 about, that online stalker guy :^) )

I went back over some of your old threads today. I recalled reading the "late from the airport" before. And others. But I couldn't remember where u r now. On the left coast? Well, it's chilly here at nite still. But I am sure by the time u get to Chi-town it will be PLENTY HOT!!

Get to packing, girlie!

jls
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/17/05 05:02 AM
oh and thanks SS. Mulling everything over.. and over.

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/19/05 03:35 PM
SS,

Did she say date?
Court????
Court who?
Is he cute?

You made me bust out laughing again. Did I ever tell you that you are a goofball? (But I mean that in the best possible way)

Do you have any concerns about the move?

Well, I wouldn't be ME if I weren't worried or stressed about some aspect of the move or anything else.

1. I was originally planning on moving in w/my mother until I found a place to buy of my own. However, she lives 60 miles from my new job. Besides this, although I know my mom loves me and cares about me, I'm a little concerned (ok a lot) about having someone ELSE besides my H controlling my life. I'm going to be honest - my mom is controlling. Let's see, how did my IC put it? It would be like moving from the frying pan into the fire back to the frying pan again if I move in w/ my mom. I think I know what I need to do, but somebody's going to have some hurt feelings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
If I'm sticking with the idea of doing what's emotionally the best for me, I need to be on my OWN. I'll just have to tell my mom that I've made a decision and be firm about it. She'll have to understand.

2. My H has offered to help me move back to Chicago (what a nice guy - I'm sure his family knows all about it) but ONLY if I move into an apartment. He says that my mom will take over my life if I move in with her (pot calling the kettle black). Also, I know he doesn't want to see her. I think it's best - trust me - they'll have words. My mom has already told me so if she sees him.

3. Otherwise, both my brother and my best friend have offered to fly out to help me load and drive back to Chicago. My mom has, too, but see #2 above - not a good idea.

Honestly, I don't know.
I can speculate though...............
Do you think he is just doing it because he is getting what he wanted? Wasn't, he was kind of distant when he thought HE was going to have to D you? Didn't he treat you badly BEFORE you made up your mind?

I think he's very relieved that he doesn't have to file for D. I've made everything SO easy for him. I've been dying to put my voice activated recorder to use again to hear what he's telling his family and friends, but I haven't. I don't think I will. What's the point now? It's over.

My IC says that he might be having some separation issues, too. Afterall, we have been together a long time. WHo knows.

Do you understand why you DID go?
Your IC should be helping you with these kinds of things - you should have an answer for me.

Well, I did want to see this movie. I guess I just want things to be as pleasant as possible before I leave.

I am thought of as an optimist by my friends. Please forgive me for looking at the dark side, but I have not seen anything in what you relate to show he has CHANGED HIS HEART. As long as we have been hearing about him, it has always been "how can he make things go his way."

I believe people can change if THEY WANT TO. I don't see anything here that would point to his wanting to do things differenthy.

No, you're absolutely right. He does not love me and he absolutely does not respect me. I still feel peace overall about this decision. It's just that I have moments of doubt on occasion, and that's when I usually post.

In a way, I didn't have to do this post, because I think you already know every thing I said. I just thought you wanted to hear it again, so here it is.

I do know it, but I need to hear it again and again and again. Thanks for saying it.

Have his driving patterns changed any? Or is it hard to tell?

I forgot to mention about the GPS device. Since H got his car back, I took it out and downloaded the info for the week before his accident. There was nothing interesting on it. I haven't put the GPS device back in yet.

I have checked his miles this week, though. No 48 mile round trips. Other than that, when he had his rental, I couldn't really tell. I couldn't use the GPS or check his miles. His other behaviors didn't indicate anything either.

I did notice on the computer history a couple days ago that he looked up driving directions to a residence address about 12 miles away. I was able to do a reverse look up on the address. I got a first initial and last name AND telephone number. Could this be a new friend or a new friend? But again, I figure, who cares anymore at this point? The habit is in me, though, to keep checking on him.

If I stay with him I will just go crazy with this kind of stuff.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/19/05 05:50 PM
Hi jls,

Anyway, been thinking svb. Filing must have been really tuff.

You know what was tough? The physical filing wasn't so bad. I'm a pretty organized person, and I found out what I had to do and did it. What was difficult was having to fill out some of it on a Saturday morning while my H was lying on the couch watching tv. Yet HE is the one that wants to be free and not be married. If I had a choice, he would want to work on the M and we would not be Ding. He wants none of that, though, so I have no choice. I got really upset that morning thinking of that. I cried and he saw me.

After reading your post, tho, I am not so sure. I keep telling myself that if things don't work out, I will be alright. But that D is for Dam^! Not trying to bring you down, just realizing what you must really be going through.

I know you will be ok if things don't work out. But don't give up yet. I have hope for you guys yet.

Really svb, you will be fine. I can't believe that your last day is going to be Fri. This Friday?

It was going to be this Friday. I extended to NEXT Friday. I figure that I have enough time to move still if I work one more week. Plus, an extra week of pay will help when I move.

And I was thinking about the less income thing. You will be near family, you will not need a large place and you will not need to support H. Just food for you and Lenny.

No, not just for me and Lenny! He's got two tank-mates now. I've got THREE little mouths to feed.

svb, you did everything you could to save your M. Now you are saving YOU! I like the you that I have read so much about. Hope I can get to know you offline someday. (And that you're not a 6 ft bald biker wierdo in real life-the one that I warn my D14 about, that online stalker guy :^) )

Thanks, jls, it'd be cool to meet you, too. Um.. I am 6 ft tall, though! Bald? Well, I do a good job of yanking out my hair with my anxiety and all (but not bald!) You don't have to worry about me, though, I couldn't hurt a fly. I don't even kill spiders in my house. I take a wad of paper, pick them up, and throw them outside. See, nothing to worry about.

I went back over some of your old threads today. I recalled reading the "late from the airport" before. And others. But I couldn't remember where u r now. On the left coast? Well, it's chilly here at nite still. But I am sure by the time u get to Chi-town it will be PLENTY HOT!!

UGghh, the "late from the airport" episode. I still have that parking receipt. What a liar. I never showed it to him, though. Or the empty condom wrappers that I found in his garbage can, for that matter. I wonder if I should throw them out now. I went back and read my original thread on the 'just found out' board. I was a basketcase back then. He seems so much more horrible to me now when I go back and read it all. It's so easy to forget some of these things that he's done. I thought about the time that he went to buy a bike and didn't want me to go with him. And then saying, "you don't need a bike, you'll never use it." He could have said, "oh, yeah, let's both get bikes and we can go to such and such park and go bike riding!"

Oh well.

Thanks for checking in on me, jls.

I'm on the east coast, BTW.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/19/05 06:15 PM
I'm on a roll now.

I was thinking of something else regarding the whole bike thing.

About two years ago, maybe three, my H bought a very expensive bike. Back then, on a lot of his days off, he would take his bike, throw it in the back of his SUV and go to the state park to ride it. He was NEVER interested in me going with him. The thought crossed my mind (way back then) that he might have been meeting a friend there. I don't know.

Well, one day, he came home from the park and he was FURIOUS. Someone had smashed the back window of his SUV and stole his bike. This happened at the park. Where was he when the bike was stolen? He told me that he was in the bathroom. How long was he in the bathroom? Aren't guys in and out of bathrooms quickly? Do people smash windows and steal bikes that quickly? He didn't even see or hear anything.

He didn't even call the police from the park. He doesn't have a cell phone and said he couldn't find a pay phone. He drove home and told ME to call 911 for him while he covered the back window. He wanted the cops to come to our place. I told him that it doesn't work like that. Well, he yelled and I called and I felt like an idiot for doing so. They were asking me questions and I had NO IDEA since I wasn't there. They also told me that he would have to call from the park. I went outside to tell him and THEN he believed me, but he was still furious.

To this day, I've always wondered what happened at the park. He was so evasive about it. He wouldn't answer ANY of my questions for more details. He acted very defensively and ANGRY.

Does any of that sound fishy to you guys? Or is it just me.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/19/05 06:16 PM
oops, was facing the wrong way when I talked to you!

I just don't get it, svb. WHY do people act that way? Do they not get what M is about??? Maybe it's me. I am beginning to reconcile with the idea that I AM crazy. Hmm, tired anyway, and maybe not thinking right alot.

You are not 6ft tall?! I am 5'2. But TUFF, most of the time anyhow. Maybe I have a little bit of the "napoleon syndrome", and that is why I like "bossing" those big horses around.

My animals are so therapuetic for me. Hope you are not too busy taking care of all those fish? LOL. Weren't the new 2 picking on Lenny for awhile? Darn fish, soo much trouble.

It will probably be good for you to work an extra week. I believe that you have to allow yourself time to grieve and all. But nothing like idle thoughts, either. Stay busy and it does seem like you are ok. Hopefully you are and I'm glad if you are. OK is really good enuf right now. Ecstaticly happy will come later, just wait!

jls
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/19/05 10:03 PM
Good for you two !!

I wish I could keep up.

S,
You can probably throw the evidence out now.

It sounds like he may not even have been at the park when the bike theft happened. You probably won't ever know.

If you made a list of all these things when the thoughts come to you, it would go pages long. Then you could look at it whenever you wondered.

I am glad you are working another week. I can see you are flexible, that you can think on your feet, and that you can change your mind when you see a better idea come along. All of this speaks well for you.

I hope the move goes well. I think you are wise to not live with Mom - the distance alone would keep me from doing it. I have no idea where the new work place will be - if it's not a high priced real estate location, you may get along just fine on the lower pay. The rent or purchase price in most places around C should be less than where you are now.

BTW, my Dad was born in C, in 1929.

I know it's hard, but I recommend you put all the thoughts of the past where they belong - in the past. Concentrate on NOW, and the future. Stay away from H, the emotions don't help you any. Talk to jls more, she sounds like a good friend.

It sounds like your best friend is still from your past - HS? or college? I also keep in contact with friends from HS, and sometimes go on trips with them. It is a good thing, one of the few things we will take with us when we leave this life. If she doesn't know all the history, give her the condensed version so she will know more about the road you have traveled. I think she will be a big help.

You know her best, think on it first. Maybe she already knows.

Jls, you sound pretty good, all things considered. What do you think?

Happy trails.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 06:09 PM
Well, everything is still moving along.

I've reserved a truck for my move on Monday, June 6. I'm still packing little by little.

I've secured an apartment about 6 -7 miles from work. After talking to my brother and my mother this past weekend, my mom is now open to the idea of me living on my own close to work.

H will be helping me move. We will load the truck and drive out together. On one hand, I am a little relieved that I will have his help. H's friend will help us in Chicago, too. (The one that now lives in FL) At the same time, though, I am thinking that he will se my new apartment and he will TAINT it. I will have memories of him BEING there. It kind of goes against my idea of moving on and starting fresh. Oh well. When I buy my townhouse, eventually, it will be all MINE.

H is all gung ho about helping me. He is acting like Mr. Wonderful. It still all baffles me. Is it guilt on his part, or does he think that I can't handle it on my own? More than anything I still think that it's because he can report back to his family about everything that he's done to help me. They'll all think that he's so wonderful.

Another thing that baffles me is that he asked me last night if there's a store of his nearby my new apt. Why would he care???? - unless he is considering moving out there eventually. I doubt it, though. I asked him if he wanted to visit it while he was out there. He said no.

Oh well, no use stressing over it.

I am getting pretty excited about the move and my new life.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 06:26 PM
SVB1,

Thanks for the update. I was wondering how you were doing the move.

Nobody can figure out a WS. Look at it this way. It only takes him a couple of days - and costs him not much - and he gets to look like a good(ish) guy.

I helped my w move out the first time we were separated - and it was her who wanted it, certainly not me.

Keep us posted, ok?

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 06:39 PM
JLS,

You are not 6ft tall?! I am 5'2. But TUFF, most of the time anyhow. Maybe I have a little bit of the "napoleon syndrome", and that is why I like "bossing" those big horses around.

I am TOO 6 ft tall. Looks are deceiving, though, because, unlike you, I am not TUFF.

My animals are so therapuetic for me. Hope you are not too busy taking care of all those fish? LOL. Weren't the new 2 picking on Lenny for awhile? Darn fish, soo much trouble.

My fish -- the new 2 were picking on Lenny and then stopped until YESTERDAY. They're at it again. I'm starting to wonder if Lenny is not Lenny, but Lenietta. (If there's such a name!) Actually, I've been doing some checking on the internet and I'm pretty positive that Lenny IS female. I could have baby fishies in the near future. Oh my!

Ecstaticly happy will come later, just wait!

Boy, won't THAT be nice!
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 06:42 PM
Hi AD

Thanks for checking in.

I will definitely keep everyone posted on the move. I, just like YOU, can't stay away from this place!

But you have to keep us posted on YOUR move, too.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 06:42 PM
Quote
But you have to keep us posted on YOUR move, too.

Will do!
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 07:47 PM
SS,

BTW, my Dad was born in C, in 1929.

Your Dad must be a fine, fine man. My dad was born in 1928. My dad was older than yours! He was born in Europe, though.

I know it's hard, but I recommend you put all the thoughts of the past where they belong - in the past. Concentrate on NOW, and the future. Stay away from H, the emotions don't help you any.

I can try, but it is really tough. As I was packing some stuff over the weekend, I came across some old college stuff. I found a computer banner (he was taking a computer class way back then) that he had sent to me that said "I miss you. I love you." Aargh. This was about 4 years before we got married. It was tough to find. I was just a BABY back then. I've known H pretty much my entire adult life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I thought of throwing it away, but I just couldn't do it. I should, though.

It sounds like your best friend is still from your past - HS? or college? I also keep in contact with friends from HS, and sometimes go on trips with them. It is a good thing, one of the few things we will take with us when we leave this life. If she doesn't know all the history, give her the condensed version so she will know more about the road you have traveled. I think she will be a big help.

I actually knew my friend in grade school, became friends in junior high, and best friends in high school. Although we're great friends, I never confided in her throughout this whole ordeal during the past couple of years. It's kind of complicated. She is not married. She has such a romanticized view of marriage. She would always tell me how lucky I was to have found my H and be married. I would always tell her that marriages take a lot of work and that it is not always a bed of roses. She'd always say, "yeah, but...." I just felt uncomfortable telling her about my suspicions, etc. --- way back then. That's why I've always posted here, too. I know everyone here understands. I've since filled her in - a few months ago actually. She has been very supportive.

But still, last night I had a looonng conversation with her. She made a comment at one point where she said, "When I get married, it's going to be forever." I told her that that's exactly what I thought, too. Do you think anyone gets married thinking that it won't last forever? I felt like such a failure at that point. I know she didn't intentionally mean any harm by it, but it still stung. There were other things that she said, too, but this is already getting too long. Anyway, although she SAYS she understands and thinks that I'm doing the right thing, I still get the feeling that she looks down on me because I am Ding. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm damaged goods. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I think I've scared her a little now, too. She told me that she doesn't want to M anyone unless they're past the mid-life crisis age!
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 08:09 PM
Well, everything is still moving along.

Sounds like YOU are doing well, which is what I worry most about.


......... I am thinking that he will se my new apartment and he will TAINT it. I will have memories of him BEING there.

You will be OK.

It kind of goes against my idea of moving on and starting fresh. Oh well. When I buy my townhouse, eventually, it will be all MINE.

It will be yours plus your new husband's, plus your first child's. I wish you would think big. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

H is all gung ho about helping me. He is acting like Mr. Wonderful. It still all baffles me. Is it guilt on his part, or does he think that I can't handle it on my own? More than anything I still think that it's because he can report back to his family about everything that he's done to help me. They'll all think that he's so wonderful.

"Yes, she filed for D, but I was the man right up to the end. I found IC for her, helped her get over it, helped her move..................It wasn't what I wanted, but probably for the best."

I think you are right about why he is doing it.

Another thing that baffles me is that he asked me last night if there's a store of his nearby my new apt. Why would he care???? - unless he is considering moving out there eventually. I doubt it, though. I asked him if he wanted to visit it while he was out there. He said no.

It probably just came to mind, so he asked. I don't think it was anything but a spur of the moment thought that he voiced.

Oh well, no use stressing over it.

Yes, you have plenty of other things to stress about, leave this one alone.

I am getting pretty excited about the move and my new life.

THINK BIG !!


I am TOO 6 ft tall. Looks are deceiving, though, because, unlike you, I am not TUFF.


SS shakes his head, looks amazed, and says to himself "if this last year (Lived by SVB1) doesn't show TUFF, then I have never seen it. You are one amazing lady, and don't you ever forget it.

Remember it when you pray, and expect help.
Remember it when you date, and expect to be treated like it.
Remember it when you have your baby, and be that kind of mom.

I can't believe I have to keep repeating obivous truths.
(SS shakes head for emphasis.)

Not tuff, I can't believe she said that.

I hope you have a good plastic bag for the fish - what an adventure for them. Maybe you could get a turtle for them to play with as they ride along?

OK, I am done teasing you, but you are TUFF.


SS

Later edit - I see you posted while I was writing. You are a very interresting person, I tease you - but I respect you, and what you have done, and it comes from the WAY YOU HAVE DONE IT. Will discuss some of your feelings from your last post as soon as time permits.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 09:02 PM
" I'm doing the right thing, I still get the feeling that she looks down on me because I am Ding. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive."

yeah yeah, and everyone wants to tell you how to raise kids, ESP when they don't have any!!! I'm sure that she doesn't look down on you. She can't understand, that's all. I thought that I would be Med forever too, but who knows?! That's why i waited til i was 32, a "grownup"... ha.

svb, here is my email, please write me, now or when you get settled in. i am SOO proud of you. SS is RIGHT AGAIN, You are TUFF. I look up to you (not 'cause you are 6ft) for making real changes. So many people (me too) remain paralyzed by fear of change. Giver yourself the credit, you really do deserve it!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 09:06 PM
Aww shucks. Thanks guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/24/05 09:47 PM
woops forgot that email, duh...

pleezmeu2ataolcom remember at =@ and u know wher the dot goes
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/25/05 08:04 PM
Your Dad must be a fine, fine man. My dad was born in 1928. My dad was older than yours! He was born in Europe, though.

My Grandparents were not from C, they were there going to school. They moved back west once school was over with. Mom's side of our family is from Germany, Dad's side from England. Very few Americans are native these days - and I would have liked to meet you dad. I suppose I may still, in the future. Is your mom Lonely? I wonder if part of her controlling nature is that your dad is no longer there to take her "advice." Anyway, I better get to the business at hand. Sometimes I go on and on.


I can try, (to move on emotionally) but it is really tough. As I was packing some stuff over the weekend, I came across some old college stuff. I found a computer banner (he was taking a computer class way back then) that he had sent to me that said "I miss you. I love you." Aargh. This was about 4 years before we got married. It was tough to find. I was just a BABY back then. I've known H pretty much my entire adult life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I thought of throwing it away, but I just couldn't do it. I should, though.

You really should not keep things that remind you of things that are over. Photos excepted - if they have you in them then they are part of your history. Preparation for another relationship requires you detach from the previous one. If you won't throw the banner out, you are stuck.

I wish things were different, but they are not. You have to live with what is, not what was. You realize I give my opinion. As always, these are YOUR choices, not mine. Please understand I respect your right to do what you feel like doing.

I believe you kept it not out of feelings for H, but out of the desire to be loved and respected. It is proof that you were loved, and you were respected, and I think you hang on to that.

JLS and I love and respect you, but it is different. His whole world revolved around you then, and you knew it. It was real, it was magic. I don't blame you for hanging on to that - but - the future calls, and there is a guy waiting for a girl like you that is not attached to someone else.

There are still magic times, and magic places with your name on them. You have to look, and you have to be ready. Please finish getting ready.

I actually knew my friend in grade school, became friends in junior high, and best friends in high school. Although we're great friends, I never confided in her throughout this whole ordeal during the past couple of years.

Ah -
I have similar friends. We still have a new years eve party each year together. Some of them I can really talk to, some not. One of them lived close to the elementary school. I wonder if it drove his mom nuts when we all showed up for lunch.

It's kind of complicated. She is not married.
I continue to be amazed at how perceptive you are. There are many things that you just know. You understand others feelings, and take them into account in every thing you do. Even your mom, when you were looking for a place to stay. This is one of the reasons you had such a hard time with the concept of D. It was your H's feelings you worried about - more than your own. You wanted to protect him from harm.

This is not a bad thing, I feel it is good. Always remember too, that you can't help someone else from a position of weakness, only from a position of strength. You have to take care of YOU too. I know you are getting better at it, but remember it is necessary that your needs are met too, before you meet the needs of others.

She has such a romanticized view of marriage. She would always tell me how lucky I was to have found my H and be married. I would always tell her that marriages take a lot of work and that it is not always a bed of roses. She'd always say, "yeah, but...." I just felt uncomfortable telling her about my suspicions, etc. --- way back then.

She would have told you that you were crazy?


That's why I've always posted here, too. I know everyone here understands. I've since filled her in - a few months ago actually. She has been very supportive.

Good, it shows you choose good friends too. Remember there are many things she won't understand, and make allowance for her comments. Like your mother, and brother, she wants you to be happy, but sometimes she won't know what is best for you. Ha, that applies to us here too. Much there is, that we don't know. Wise you are, to remember that.

But still, last night I had a looonng conversation with her. She made a comment at one point where she said, "When I get married, it's going to be forever." I told her that that's exactly what I thought, too. Do you think anyone gets married thinking that it won't last forever?

No.
You are right, everyone wants it to be forever. We all dream, and we all hope, but we also marry a human being, not a celestial, glorified perfected being. Our mates have choices, as do we. We can choose darkness, secrets, chains, or honesty, freedom, and light. Your H chose the former. I hate to think of the chains he has forged for himself. I am glad you are seeking freedom, and light. More about that below.

Your friend has a lot to learn, but it will have to be at her own pace. She won't get some things until she lives them.

I felt like such a failure at that point. I know she didn't intentionally mean any harm by it, but it still stung.
Reminded me of a poem. Do you mind?

The Fool's Prayer
by Edward Rowland Sill
(1841-87)

The Royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried, "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!

"No pity, Lord could change the heart
From red with wrong to white as wool:
The rod must heal the sin; but, Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!

"'Tis not by guilt the onward sweep
Of truth and right, O Lord, we stay;
'Tis by our follies that so long
We hold the earth from heaven away.

"These clumsy feet, still in the mire,
Go crushing blossoms without end;
These hard, well-meaning hands we thrust
Among the heart-strings of a friend.

"The ill-timed truth we might have kept-
Who knows how sharp it pierced and stung!
The word we had not sense to say-
Who knows how grandly it had rung!

"Our faults no tenderness should ask,
The chastening stripes must cleanse them all;
But for our blunders - oh, in shame
Before the eyes of heaven we fall.

"Earth bears no balsam for mistakes;
Men crown the Knave, and scourge the tool
That did his will; but Thou, O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"

The room was hushed, in silence rose
The King, and sought his gardens cool,
And walked apart, and murmured low,
"Be merciful to me, a fool!"

Some of it does not apply -
but it makes me think.
I am sure your friend didn't mean to hurt. I am sure if she did understand, she would try to make it right.

There were other things that she said, too, but this is already getting too long.

SS Purses lips - thinks.............

If she thought hers was too long, then what will she think when she reads this one? Perhaps I should quit now before I make it any worse.

Ahemmmm, I have never read one of yours that was too long for the reader. Perhaps you mean they are too long for the writer -

Anyway, although she SAYS she understands and thinks that I'm doing the right thing, I still get the feeling that she looks down on me because I am Ding. Maybe I'm just being too sensitive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Remember, it doesn't matter. She doesn't have your experience, and she is not your judge. I encouraged you to study it out in your mind, and pray so that you would KNOW. You needed it for you. I think you do know. Remember, when God tells you to do something, and you do it, you are always in the right. She can learn, and she can grow, and she can catch up with you. Bring her along, help her, but don't worry that she doesn't get it all now.

I'm damaged goods. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My wish is that you would never feel like this ever again. I don't cry often, but I hold back the tears now.

If the Great God, our Father - he under whose direction the Universe was created, who holds the earth, and stars in their places, could come and talk to you. I imagine he would hold both your hands, raise you up, and look in your eyes, and tell you something like this "My daughter, I sent you to learn, and to grow. I am so sorry things are difficult for you now. Please don't give up. I sent you to succeed, not to fail. I gave you talents, and ability. Even though the tests are hard, you can win. Be brave, be positive, use those talents. Don't be discouraged - your future can be glorious. I did not plan misery for you, but joy, and happiness. Tests are difficult, but necessary, and they will help you grow. Failures are temporary, they don't limit your future. You are my daughter, you CAN succeed."

I don't see him saying you are damaged. I don't hear him saying you are a failure.

I believe in you, but YOU need to believe in you.

I think I've scared her a little now, too. She told me that she doesn't want to M anyone unless they're past the mid-life crisis age!

Show her how it's done. Be careful, but not afraid. Wait if you need to, until you know you are healed, go slow, but don't stop.

I have faith in you, because there is something there to have faith in. I have seen it.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/25/05 10:02 PM
jls,

You have email. And one other thing - am I tuff or am I bockbock chickenhearted? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

SS,

I will get back to you later on your post. You gave me a lot to think about, as usual. I like that, though. Thanks.

svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/25/05 10:18 PM
And one other thing - am I tuff or am I bockbock chickenhearted?

I know you were asking jls, but..........

Being tough does not mean we are not afraid. It doesn't mean we never cry, or that we always do every thing just right.

It does mean that even with all those feelings we go on and do the best we can.

You did that. You are one tough cookie.

If you don't agree, that's just tuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/26/05 12:11 AM
SS,

I only asked JLS because she called me bockbock chickenhearted on AD's thread - but yet she called me tuff here. I'm not sure if you saw it on the other thread. I was just teasing her. I wasn't ignoring you.

I'm still going to get back to you later on your post. I'm feeling kinda tired now. (Long story about that - still debating whether I should post about it or not) Maybe I'll come back after H wakes up and goes to work.

Before I go though, talking about our dads, when you said "You are one tough cookie." I had an instant flashback to my dad. He always used to tell me, "you are one smart cookie." It was a little spooky!
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/26/05 12:18 AM
I didn't see it, but wondered if you were referencing another post.

But Hey, notice the last line, with the smile - don't sweat it.

SS smiles.

Walks down the hall, closes the door behind him.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 03:06 AM
Hello SS,

I'm finally getting back to you! I was too tuckered out last night to write a long post. Please know, too, that I ALWAYS welcome your comments here - even though I did address that question to JLS. I love your advice.

My Grandparents were not from C, they were there going to school. They moved back west once school was over with. Mom's side of our family is from Germany, Dad's side from England.

Yeay! More information about SS! I've got bits and pieces of information about you from what you've posted here and from what I've read on other threads, but it’s always nice to know more. It makes me realize that you ARE a real person. OK, I know you’re a real person, but sometimes I think, with your insight and your compassion, that you CAN’T be a mere mortal. Truly, you have a gift.

Anyway… my father was born in Lithuania. He lived in both Germany and England, though! He told some amazing stories about living through WWII in Europe. Maybe if you ever do meet him you can ask him about that. You’ll get a quiet man to talk your ear off. (You could ask him about his family, too, you could probably get him to cry with that.) Ok, and now I’m getting myself to cry.

And now I’m too tired to post any more. I have much more to say, too.

Good night.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 05:54 AM
I'm back. I'm tired, but I can't sleep. Tomorrow is my last day of work and I guess I've got a lot on my mind.

I've been thinking about something else.

I'm damaged goods.

My wish is that you would never feel like this ever again. I don't cry often, but I hold back the tears now.

Do you really mean that, SS? I guess you have no reason to lie to me. I wish I could evoke those feelings from my H. I'm going to share something with you that happened this week. I've been debating about posting about this for fear of getting a lecture about my health (it'd be well deserved, though).

I pretty much passed out on Tuesday night. It was a long day. After work I went to my meeting with my counselor. As I waited to go into my meeting, I started to get a migraine. I took an Imitrex. By the time my meeting was over, my headache was gone, and I was in a really good mood.

I got home, (H was off on Tuesday - but no suspicious behavior detected) and I was starving. H looked like he just woke up. I made dinner, and we ate. At about 10 pm we had some cheesecake that I had made on Sunday with some dulce de leche (caramel) liquier. Then I fell asleep on the couch watching tv with H. (OK, hold on, I'm getting to it) At about midnight, H woke me up and told me to go upstairs to sleep. I got up and remembered that the dinner dishes were still in the sink. I walked to the kitchen and started to wash them. After about 2 forks, everything started to fade. I dropped to the ground before I think I actually fainted.

There I was - half lying on the floor and half leaning up against the wall. I didn't get a chance to shut off the water. I was still dizzy and was too weak to move. I was tingly all over and felt like vomiting. I must have whimpered or made a noise because H then came into the kitchen.

H's reaction?

He SNARLED, "are you for real, or are you playing?" I said, "I'm dizzy." He didn't say anything and he SLAMMED the water shut and went back to the couch to watch tv.

He was disgusted with me, or so it seemed. Meanwhile, I was scared and praying to God that I wouldn't die.

I was ok, though. Eventually I crawled back to my sofa and pulled myself up on it to lie down. (I was afraid to stand up) Then I felt better and went upstairs to go to sleep. H told me that it must have been the cheesecake that I ate. It was too rich for me. ? I think that's an Argentinean thing.

He brought me up something to settle my stomache later on. The next day he called me at work to see how I was doing.

I honestly don't know what it was - maybe the combination of medication throughout the day -Lexapro, Imitrex (which I had forgotten that I had taken - and THEN liqiuer to boot later on. I am such a dork. Maybe it was stress. Maybe I was dehydrated. Or maybe it's all these thoughts that keep swirling in my head that made me dizzy!

But my whole point is, why does he act like that? If it were me that found H on the floor in the kitchen, I would have been BESIDE myself with panic and fear and worry.

I DON'T understand it.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 06:54 AM
svb,

That is scary. I don't know how your health is, but watch it. It could be partially due to stress. I really believe that stress can cause or aggravate alot of physical stuff.

Now with my H, I might have thought the same thing that your H thought - turned around. My H acts (?) like he is sick when we fight. He really does play the martyr thing. I am not saying that you were, i just know that I might have THOUGHT the same thing. But I would have also been worried about my H, cause i always think, what if he IS for real this time..And i DO love him and worry about him.

I am not defending your STBXH. Probably, his reaction stemmed from guilt. He has GOT to know that you have been through alot. I always thought, that no matter how people acted, they have got to FEEL/KNOW what is really going on, to some degree. Maybe that is too much credit for most, i don't know. I just know me and what others have told me.

Take care of yourself svb. I mean it!!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 01:54 PM
Hi jls,

Thanks for you post.

My health is good, other than my occasional migraines (since high school). I had a physical last Sept. or so.

Well, it helps to see how he might be thinking. We weren't fighting that night, though. Actually, I was in a really good mood that night and he knew it. As for playing a martyr, who knows, it's possible that I could be guilty of that on other occasions, I really don't know. I DO know that I am guilty of wanting love and attention from him. I CERTAINLY wasn't faking anything on Tuesday. I guess I only wish that he had reacted differently.

By his reaction, I felt unloveable and worthless. I felt that I was only a bother to him - an annoyance. That's the message that I got. To him, it didn't matter if I lived or if I died. (ok that's pretty extreme, but I can't help how I feel.)

OK, now I'm not defending your H, but think about that the next time you want to walk away from your H. What if he really IS sick. What message are you sending him?

Ugghh. Life is so complicated.
Posted By: StillHereMakingIt Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 02:05 PM
Don't know aobut your H, but mine gets absolutely LIVID when he feels guilty about something.

This past week I was at work and brought up something he did the night before that I didn't like, didn't think was appropriate to do at school, and he got defensive, saif he wouldn't talk about it, got angry. I asked him when we COULD talk about it...he gave me a time. He called back then, and when we started talking I kept asking the same question again and again..."What did you say to yourself in your mind that gave yourself permission to do that?" (He cursed in a conversational tone in a gym full of school kids. I don't think anyone heard him, but when I asked him to stop he kept on...) He REALLY got angry and said, "Stop yelling at me." Now, mind you, I was at work, was not angry, was NOT raising my voice at all...just was not letting it go.

I can see your H walking in, feeling guilty, getting angry at himself, and wanting the situation to go away ("Hey, if I walk in the other room and ignore her, it's not happening...")
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 02:29 PM
Hi SHMI,

OK, I can see it. Your H knows he's wrong, feels guilty, gets angry with himself, but yet takes it out on you.
It's kind of like when people get upset when you say, "I told you so!"

I can see the guilt thing later on in my H. I think he realized that I was NOT playing, and then tried to make up for it in a way. It did make me feel a little better, especially when he called me the next day to see how I was.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 09:46 PM
S,
You say you don't understand.
No reason to try - Just remember it for future reference.

Thinking..........not sure why you hesitated to post about it.
I fainted dead away once in the bathroom while brushing my teeth, my W caught my head before it hit the edge of the tub. Lucky me.
We had been married two weeks, it scared her half to death. I had internal bleeding - but they fixed it, and
it didn't
it didn't
it didn't
it didn't
affect me at all.

I think the reasons given about why H was angry are valid. Down inside, you still want him to validate you. He may, or he may not. Don't let it get to you either way.
Think about how far you have come. Yes, temper the thoughts with your weaknesses.

Now, remember all of us have weaknesses, but we acomplish something anyway. You will too.
You know - your dad was right about what kind of cookie you are. Believe him.

SS

Ps, I'll be away from computers for the weekend, see everyone when I get back.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/27/05 11:26 PM
Good news! I have the flu! That explains everything.
Who'd a thought I'd be so happy about having the flu. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/30/05 11:23 PM
H and I went out to dinner last night. We took advantage of a gift card that we had, but never used. We held hands again walking to and from the restaurant.

It's taking everything in me to remain tough. I feel like I'm always at the verge of asking him if he still wants a D and BEGGING him to move to Chicago with me!

I actually sway between doing that and giving him a piece of my mind about the way that he's behaved for this past year and a half - that if he were SO unhappy and BORED in our M, why didn't he talk to me about it before he decided to sneak around and lie to me. If HE wanted to be free, why didn't HE tell me that he wanted a D? My mom and my friend here are amazed that I HAVENT given him a piece of my mind yet. They think that I'm letting him get off easy.

Yesterday as we discussed where I should stack up all my boxes, I asked him for a hug. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He gave me a nice long hug. Today I crawled up next to him on the sofa as he watched tv. He put his arm around me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

WEAK!

I've noticed that plan B and plan D have more of an affect on ME than on HIM.

OK, one more week, and then I can really let go.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/31/05 04:25 PM
hi svb,

glad that you are over flu!!

I really don't get your H. Doesn' fit any "mode" right?!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/31/05 11:12 PM
Hi jls,

I don't get my H either.

I would like to believe that my H is conflicted about everything and is having some doubts about whether to end this M or not. More likely, though, he is just happy that it is ending - he IS getting what he wants - and he is still trying to appease me until it is all over. Sometimes I wonder if he even has a heart.

I read an email that his niece sent to him the other day. (I was going to stop doing that, but I couldn't help it.) She told him that she is glad that everything is "falling into place for him." That really upset me. I guess maybe that's why I've tried to stop snooping on him for the truth. Yeah, how nice that it IS falling all into place for him. He doesn't have to do anything, while I feel like I am ripping out my own heart for him.

I really need to stop trying to be close to him. I'm only hurting myself. I REALLY need to let go.

One more week.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 05/31/05 11:44 PM
1. Yes, I really meant it. It really bothers me when people who are priceless, think they are less than that.

2. Sorry for your illness, but understand why you are happy that the flu is all that is wrong.

3. Yes it does explain
does exlpain
does explain
a lot.

4. Dr Harley is right. When someone holds our hand, spends time with us, and is kind to us, we fall in love. Remember it.

5. You are free to choose what your future will be like. Not everthing, but the general direction, and many events. Rejoice, and be glad, there has never been a time in all the ages of the earth when we have had so many choices.


I would like to believe that my H is conflicted about everything and is having some doubts about whether to end this M or not.

I would too. If he came and told you that, would it be the truth? How would you know?


More likely, though, he is just happy that it is ending - he IS getting what he wants - and he is still trying to appease me until it is all over. Sometimes I wonder if he even has a heart.

Why would he never tell you the truth? How long was he like that? Did it extend to other things, like spending time away from you, and spending money?


I read an email that his niece sent to him the other day. (I was going to stop doing that, but I couldn't help it.) She told him that she is glad that everything is "falling into place for him." That really upset me.

He must have said something when he was home in January?

It would upset anyone.

The big problem, (knowing you) is that you would tend to think "what is wrong with me, that he doesn't want me."
I think it should be "what is wrong with him?" But that's not how your mind works most of the time. Is it?

What is wrong with him? I wish we knew.

Yeah, how nice that it IS falling all into place for him. He doesn't have to do anything, while I feel like I am ripping out my own heart for him.

You are.
That's why I worry.

I really need to stop trying to be close to him. I'm only hurting myself. I REALLY need to let go.

There are a number of factors at play.

1. Your goal to be a wife, and mother is really taking a beating. You have only faith to tell you the future will still work.

2. You love him. That's why you married, and why you worked so hard, and why you stayed so long. Give youself a break, love is a good thing. Just remember, if you spend time, and if someone meets your needs (closeness, and touch are big for you) it's hard not to fall in love. Be careful with your feelings. Be careful with your heart.

3. You have a lot of time invested. Starting over does not look like a good thing.

4. It was comfortable. Getting out of the comfort zone is tough. Especially after #3.

5. You have a family example to follow, and it feels like failure to end your marriage. Even if it's not your fault, it still feels like failure. Note, I said "feels like. I don't believe you have failed - but I believe he has.


One more week.

Praying that your mind will be clear, and your heart will be healed.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/01/05 07:06 AM
I would like to believe that my H is conflicted about everything and is having some doubts about whether to end this M or not.

-- I would too. If he came and told you that, would it be the truth? How would you know?

If he came and told me that (without me asking him), I would want to believe him. I wouldn't know for sure, though.

I'm pretty positive that it's not going to happen.

Why would he never tell you the truth? How long was he like that? Did it extend to other things, like spending time away from you, and spending money?

I've only noticed for the past few years or so. I would say if would be about spending time away from me. Never about spending money, though.

I read an email that his niece sent to him the other day. (I was going to stop doing that, but I couldn't help it.) She told him that she is glad that everything is "falling into place for him." That really upset me.

-- He must have said something when he was home in January?

The email was from the middle of April. I am assuming that he talked with his favorite sister and niece by phone after it was decided that we were going to D.

The big problem, (knowing you) is that you would tend to think "what is wrong with me, that he doesn't want me." I think it should be "what is wrong with him?" But that's not how your mind works most of the time. Is it?

It's funny, but I almost wrote that. Except MY words were going to be, "what is so horrible about me that would make him want to run away and never think twice about coming back." I decided against posting it, though.

Yes, that is how my mind works most of the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I had a horrible, horrible, horrible night tonight. After I posted earlier, H and I went to change the titles of our cars into one name only on each. It was tough enough because of the finality of it all, but toss in some unfairness, too. Let's just say that I think that I should be getting his SUV, but I'm not. He can keep his stupid precious SUV if he really wants it. I left that place in tears.

We got home and I gave him a piece of my mind about everything. (As I mentioned in my previous post.)

I told him that he's getting exactly what he wants now - a D and his precious SUV. I told him that I never thought that he would be like that. At first he was shocked, "what? I thought that's what we decided."

Then I said that I also never thought that he would behave the way that he did during the last 2 years of our M. That if he were SO unhappy and bored, he should have talked to me about it instead of sneaking around and lying to me, etc. etc. He should have told me that he wanted a D instead of letting me have to figure it out for myself and have to do all of the dirty work myself. I said that it's probably better that I don't keep his SUV because all it would do is remind me of all of the 48 mile round trips that he took into the city. blah blah. THEN I told him that he sucks to the core as a human being. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

He didn't say anything and he just went upstairs into our bedroom and shut the door (I could swear he took his international calling card with him).

I cried throughout the conversation, but I was really balling at that point. I jumped on the computer and signed online. (YES so that he wouldn't call his stupid family).

OK, now you've seen the nasty side of me.

I signed off after only 5 minutes.

I thought I would feel better (as everyone told me) after telling him off -- but I didn't. I felt horrible and guilty.

I went upstairs after a while. He wasn't on the phone, but just lying in the dark. I said that I was sorry for going off like that, but I thought I was getting the SUV. He said, "why didn't you say anything."

AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!

He came downstairs after a while. He made himself some tea and asked if I wanted some, too. Then we watched tv and again, it was as if nothing ever happened.

OK, enough of my rant. Thanks for reading.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/01/05 12:43 PM
I saw your post and was wondering what you doing up so late?!

Now I know. Why didn't you say anything, s? You should stand up for yourself, HE obviously is NOT going to worry about you!

NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING is wrong with you!! Except like SS says, you don't see your own value. You SHOULD tell H how you feel. How you feel is important and he should realize that. It is HIS prob that he is self-oriented.

And it wasn't really about the SUV now was it. The UNFAIRNESS of it ALL!!!!!

One more week, YES. But try to let him know how you feel anyway. 1 more week, but walk away knowing that you told him exactly how it was FOR YOU!

{{{svb}}} -will try to email u later, SORRY, so sorry that you are still hurting.

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/01/05 01:26 PM
Hi jls!

You're absolutely right. It wasn't about the SUV at all. I really don't care about the suv at all. It was everything else.

I still feel horrible now, though, about how I handled it all. I told him that he "sucks to the core as a human being" !!! First of all it came out wrong. What I said was a combination of "you suck" and "you are rotten to the core." Besides that, what I should have said was, "what you have done for the past two years sucks." In a sense, I've done to him what he's always done to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That's what makes me feel so horrible.

I clarified it this morning with him. I told him that I didn't mean to say that - that he doesn't suck as a h.b., but I don't like how he handled everything these past couple of years. I told him that there is still good in him and that (unfortunately) I still love him.

If I tell him anything else for the rest of this week, I'm just going to have to be careful the way that I phrase it.

Maybe I shouldn't care anymore at this point, but I do.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/01/05 02:06 PM
of course you care. You can't jsut turn that off and on at will, or you would never have been here in the 1st place.

Be back later, doing horsy stuff for awhile and have to take nap today, work 2nite.

jls

Tell him a lot this week. What have u got to lose?! MHO - anyway.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/01/05 08:46 PM
Hi Svb1 !!!

First - jls is right, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be here in the first place.


Quote
I would too. If he came and told you that, would it be the truth? How would you know?


If he came and told me that (without me asking him), I would want to believe him. I wouldn't know for sure, though.

I admit that I have worried about this one. Worried that he would find it useful for some reason to delay, and would play upon your heart strings a little bit longer. Throughout my communication with you, I have prayed for a restoration of your marriage, but that if it was not to be, you would know how to best proceed. I have never wanted it to just be over - until this last week. I still worry.
I worry not because of who, or what you are, of that I fear for your future, but I worry that he may find some further way to take advantage of you while you are still in turmoil. I worry because sometimes good people get shafted, and I want you to heal, not be wounded yet again.

I'm pretty positive that it's not going to happen.

I don't see him changing at this point, though I wish he would. I do fear for his future. I fear he will never really be happy, but neither you nor I can fix that.

Quote
Why would he never tell you the truth? How long was he like that? Did it extend to other things, like spending time away from you, and spending money?


I've only noticed for the past few years or so. I would say if would be about spending time away from me. Never about spending money, though.

I am glad you didn't have to worry about that too. It makes me wonder - but I best keep some thing to myself.


The email was from the middle of April. I am assuming that he talked with his favorite sister and niece by phone after it was decided that we were going to D.

I suppose this could just be her wishing him well, but it sounds so bad the way she said it. I am sure he puts spin on his conversations, and they are sorry he has to endure so much. I don't think there is anything you can do about this part of things. Sometimes the truth doesn't come out, and we can't change that.


Quote
The big problem, (knowing you) is that you would tend to think "what is wrong with me, that he doesn't want me." I think it should be "what is wrong with him?" But that's not how your mind works most of the time. Is it?


It's funny, but I almost wrote that. Except MY words were going to be, "what is so horrible about me that would make him want to run away and never think twice about coming back." I decided against posting it, though.

SS smiles.
S still doesn't really understand who she is. Perhaps we can discuss it more below.

Never be afraid to post what you think, or feel. This is your thread, after all.

Yes, that is how my mind works most of the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh shoot, lets talk now. I hope you don't mind my sometimes long posts. This will probably be one of those.

Jesus Christ - his life and ministry.
I am not sure how often you read the scriptures. We try to read daily at our house, because we need all the help we can get. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We don't have much about his childhood, and we don't have much about yours. It was written of him "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."

He was born, and he learned, as do you and I. He didn't know it all right up front. He was tested, as are all of us.

Now, remember, he was rejected by most of the world, and it didn't stop at rejection. There was a mock trial, he was condemned by a group that of them selves, did not have the legal power to put him to death. They tried to turn public opinion against him, they interceded with the Roman governor so as to kill him when there was no legal reason to produce this result.

Remember some of his personal struggles -
Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, but not my will, but thine be done.

HE sought to save mankind, but was able to save but a few.

If any one person could ask "what is wrong with me, that they don't want me," it would be him. However, he knew his mission, he knew his worth, and he knew that even if he was killed, his work would be finished as well as it could be done, and he would overcome the world.

Now, you and I (all of us) are here. We have our tests, tailored to our strength, and weaknesses. We can't escape the trials any more than he could. It wouldn't be good for us if we could. We are being refined, and purified, and we are learning who we are, and what we are.

I did hold back the tears when you asked about damaged goods. That we are here, that alone means we have a chance.

From John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Now, he does not say sons, and daughters, but do you think he is leaving you out?

I know he is not.

I should like to see you in that great day, and I want you to be all that you can be. Even now, the seeds are in you to succeed. (jls, you too, though I know you have doubts.)

So, what is so horrible about you?
That's the wrong way to phrase it -

Mistakes?
Sure, you make them.

Faults?
I have them, why not you too.

Bad feelings?
Every marriage has them at one point or another.

None of these things are grounds to plot to leave your W. None of them.

As you learn more about who you are, and as you make goals to be that person you want to be, those depressing thoughts about not being good enough will be left in the past. Should be, could be, must be.

OK?


I had a horrible, horrible, horrible night tonight. After I posted earlier, H and I went to change the titles of our cars into one name only on each. It was tough enough because of the finality of it all, but toss in some unfairness, too. Let's just say that I think that I should be getting his SUV, but I'm not. He can keep his stupid precious SUV if he really wants it. I left that place in tears.

Agree with jls, you should say what you think. This is a change of habit, it will take time. Part of the problem is that many of us wait until we feel like we are going to explode, and then we unload all at once. Much of the struggle is learning to do it as it happens, expressing our feelings without LB'ing. I am in the middle of this process now, and it is hard. (understatement.)

It helped me to read "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love." By Harley. I learned how not to do it, so I can see ways that WOULD work too. It takes practice to get from "remaining quiet so as to not rock the boat," to being able to voice concerns without argument or fighting. It can be done.

We got home and I gave him a piece of my mind about everything. (As I mentioned in my previous post.)

jls and I would have loved to see it. We both like fireworks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I told him that he's getting exactly what he wants now - a D and his precious SUV. I told him that I never thought that he would be like that. At first he was shocked, "what? I thought that's what we decided."

Then I said that I also never thought that he would behave the way that he did during the last 2 years of our M. That if he were SO unhappy and bored, he should have talked to me about it instead of sneaking around and lying to me, etc. etc. He should have told me that he wanted a D instead of letting me have to figure it out for myself and have to do all of the dirty work myself. I said that it's probably better that I don't keep his SUV because all it would do is remind me of all of the 48 mile round trips that he took into the city. blah blah. THEN I told him that he sucks to the core as a human being. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


I am glad you told him your feelings. He needs to know how his actions affected you. This goes for your mother too - but you can do it without the fireworks in her case.
What I mean, is that you don't need to do everything your mother suggests, you can make your own decisions. If she tries to lay guilt on you, tell her how it makes you feel, and also tell her you will take her suggestions into consideration, but that you will do as you think best. It works with spouses, and it works with parents - Talk it out before it gets to you.


I cried throughout the conversation, but I was really balling at that point. I jumped on the computer and signed online. (YES so that he wouldn't call his stupid family).

I didn't realize his family had low IQ's.

Oh, wait, that's not what you meant.
Hmmm, I see.

This really got to you.

Please know, I understand where you were, and I feel for you. This must have been hard, made worse by all that has happened. Sorry - but laughter is a great help for recovery. I hope it helps.


OK, now you've seen the nasty side of me.

Don't hold your breath for me to give up on you because of this, you would be holding it a long, long, time.

I signed off after only 5 minutes.
You got to thinking.

I thought I would feel better (as everyone told me) after telling him off -- but I didn't. I felt horrible and guilty.

Learn to express your feelings without LB's. You are used to keeping them inside, and not letting them out at all. You thought it would feel good to finally come clean with him.

It is good to express your feelings, but it was the way it was done. I promise, it does feel good to be honest about things. In the future, if you will discuss things as they happen, and use the POJA, it will go much better. Not perfect, but much better. Always learn, never think it's the end.

I went upstairs after a while. He wasn't on the phone, but just lying in the dark. I said that I was sorry for going off like that, but I thought I was getting the SUV. He said, "why didn't you say anything."

AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!


Always learn, never think it's the end. Sometimes I tell myself "your an idiot, how could you do that." I always come back and correct it. "I made a mistake, I need to learn from it, and do better the next time."
Remember who you are, and what your goals are.

He came downstairs after a while. He made himself some tea and asked if I wanted some, too. Then we watched tv and again, it was as if nothing ever happened.

Unless you really want to watch TV when he does, I recommend you find things to do in another room. I worry about the move. Perhaps unfounded worry, but it's there.

OK, enough of my rant. Thanks for reading.

Again, I am sorry for the pain. I hope you are coming to realize that the reason you are valuable is not just because any one says so, but you are valuable because you are valuable. (you too jls.)

SS smiles again to himself, nods, and thinks "smart cookie, she'll get it."

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/02/05 02:58 PM
SVB1,


Sorry about the car thing. I understand that it's not about the car. It's just that he seems to value the SUV more than he values you. In that, he is blind - completely blind. <AD shakes head>

How're you doing today?

Are you working through Friday?

When do you expect to be back online in Chicago?
People here (me amongst them) will worry about you if you don't post something for a week. So, find a 'puter somewhere - at the public library, or Kinko's and let us know how you're doing. OK?

By the way, SS said it well, with good biblical backing, but I'll take a short stab at it too.

We are all damaged a little, and yet we remain of incalculable value. If somebody gives you a new car, you can say "but, it's got a scratch on it", or you can say "what a great car!". The same goes even more for people. Each touch of "damage" in a person becomes a feature, surrounded by the beauty of the whole person. One might even say that imperfection is neccesary to be perfectly human. Whatever "damage" we have suffered as a result of our spouse's actions, over time can lead to growth and deeper humanity. We should not seek to suffer, but if we find suffering on our path, it can be used to advantage.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/02/05 09:08 PM
Hi AD,

Thanks for checking on me again!

Last Friday was my last day at work. Right now, I'm still busy going through things and packing. I've been dilly dallying a lot though. I've been finding all kinds of things and it really distracts me! I've been looking through photo albums, reading old letters, watching butterflies fly by ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) etc. I have to keep telling myself - "FOCUS SVB!"

Today has been much better, thank you. Yesterday was another tough day. I found a folder with our pre-marriage counseling information - workbooks, etc. We had to write love letters to each other on that day. His was wonderful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I guess he must have loved me when we got married. It's got those thoughts going round and round in my head again. I haven't passed out yet, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I hope to be on-line ASAP in Chicago - maybe Wednesday. I was able to purchase my computer from work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's actually a better computer than we have at home.
The only thing I need to do is buy a modem for it. I'd like to do it before I move.

H leaves Chicago on Wednesday morning, so then I'm sure I'll be posting away about the move on Wednesday evening.

Well, I better get back to the task at hand. I'll probably be posting a little later about some of these thoughts in my head.

SS, I have to get back to you, too. Some of these thoughts are because of your last post!
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/03/05 02:31 AM
I have been thinking a lot about the conversation that H and I had the other morning.

This is how it started out:

I clarified it this morning with him. I told him that I didn't mean to say that - that he doesn't suck as a h.b., but I don't like how he handled everything these past couple of years. I told him that there is still good in him and that (unfortunately) I still love him.

H : That's good to know.

SVB : What do you mean "that's good to know?" Don't you know you don't suck as a human being?

H : (just shrugged his shoulders) -- it was as if he couldn't say anything because he was choked up.

SVB : Well you don't. How do you think I feel? (starting to cry) At least I still love you. Was I THAT horrible of a W that you stopped loving me?

H : Why do you look at it that way? Things just happen. Don't you think this is hard for me, too?

SVB: I don' know. You don't show it at all.

I thought about that all day. THEN I found those love letters later on, which got me thinking even more.

Of course, he was sweet all day. He packed some stuff for me. He kept saying, "why don't you take the camcorder...digital camera... cuckoo clock...microwave...(basically anything he came across)"

He offered to give me more $$$ -- because of the SUV.

In the evening, right before H went to work, I did something crazy. (you guys are going to want to slap me upside the head!)

I asked H, "I need to ask you a question. What do you think about delaying the D and just being separated first for a while."

H: (immediately) Yeah. YOU'RE the one that was in such a rush to D.

I explained to him AGAIN about WHY I was in such a rush.

H: But isn't it too late??

SVB: No, not really. We can call the courthouse and pull the D paperwork. People stop Ds like that all the time.

I got up to go to the kitchen, and I just thought out loud, mumbling, "I've just been thinking, that's all. I don't know, I'm confused. I don't know." over and over again.

We haven't discussed it any more. H was sweet again today.

Then I started thinking about what YOU said, SS.

I admit that I have worried about this one. Worried that he would find it useful for some reason to delay, and would play upon your heart strings a little bit longer.

I keep thinking, "uh oh, what did I do?" I've done the same thing as when I contacted H during plan B. HE didn't even do it -- I did it all by myself.

I worry not because of who, or what you are, of that I fear for your future, but I worry that he may find some further way to take advantage of you while you are still in turmoil. I worry because sometimes good people get shafted, and I want you to heal, not be wounded yet again.

I just wonder if we decide to try separation for a while - I don't know -- 6 months -- a year -- am I just dragging the pain out? AM I setting myself up to be used some more? After I move, though, I don't know how this could be. We will be separated in all senses. We won't be tied together financially anymore.

My couselor wondered why I decided on D so fast. She said that she doesn't believe in making hasty decisions. I don't really think it was a hasty decision. I have been living through this for the past year and a half. I'll admit that the job decision was hasty, though! (but I don't regret it)

At the same time, she said, "if it's meant to be, you can always get re-married."

At this point, I don't have to follow through on anything. I can just let the D process carry out. I didn't tell him that I WAS going to pull the D paperwork.

Our communication is so horrible, though, he might be assuming right now that I am going to be doing that. That's how I got into this SUV trouble.

What do I do? What do I do? I'm not tough anymore, am I.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/03/05 02:33 AM
...and one more thing (for now!)

I hope you don't mind my sometimes long posts.

They're my favorite!
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/03/05 02:54 AM
YES, you are still TUFF.

I have to get S7 to bed soon, but will come back if I can. I did tell D14 that we were gonna watch a scary movie tho. (SHe hated MB, thinks it is silly).

NOW, Why did you "rush" the D? I wondered that too. BUT, it seemed as if you were sure. Look back...think about it. I think that you were actually in a better (calmer, anyway) frame of mind than you are right now! You seem to be falling prey to the BIG CHANGES anxiety/stress monster. ALOT of changes at once, svb.

Take deep breaths. I really HATE to say this, but does H seem as if HE doesn't want a D? OR would he just "stick" it out for awhile for you, which DOES show that he cares still. Maybe he does NOT know what he wants. Maybe he has been having an affair and he is in the "fog". Maybe he will come out of it after you are gone. THIS could just be your Plan B. You don't have to decide this right this minute.

And you don't even have to consider what he wants right now, either! Pull the D, and then if he wants it immediately , let HIM file!

step back...move away from the emotional turmoil, if just for a sec. And don't make any rash decisions either way, yet!! You could stay awake for days worrying about this and that will not help. I know, i would do that....

svb, SS is right, KNOW YOUR VALUE. Like yourself and LOVE yourself. You are scared, it's ok. And it's ok to change your mind. It's YOUR life, ya' know.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{svb}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


jls
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/03/05 01:22 PM
In a list of the top 5 stressors in life.

-Divorce,
-Moving
-Changing Jobs

are all there.

You are getting a triple whammy! (and it was your choice).

Now, stress is not all a bad thing - as long as you can handle it.

If you want to slow down the D, slow it down. It's your life.

From what I have read about your H, he sounds very passive and disconnected.

Think about what you can or cannot build on this relationship.

On the other hand, if you don't D, now, you can always D him later.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/03/05 09:48 PM
I have been thinking a lot about the conversation that H and I had the other morning.

I have been thinking about it too.

This is how it started out:

"My dear, there is something I have to tell you.........."

Oh no. Shoot, that's probably how you wish he would start. Sorry......... Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

H : Why do you look at it that way? Things just happen. Don't you think this is hard for me, too?

I am not seeing signs that it is hard for him too. I haven't seen him cry, or suffer in any way. You are there, what do you see?


SVB: I don' know. You don't show it at all.

It looks like you see what I see.

I thought about that all day. THEN I found those love letters later on, which got me thinking even more.

Of course, he was sweet all day. He packed some stuff for me. He kept saying, "why don't you take the camcorder...digital camera... cuckoo clock...microwave...(basically anything he came across)"


I don't understand either. WHAT DOES HE WANT??????
If one of your theories is true, it would explain - maybe.

He offered to give me more $$$ -- because of the SUV.

You know best about that. Whatever you think.

In the evening, right before H went to work, I did something crazy. (you guys are going to want to slap me upside the head!)

I asked H, "I need to ask you a question. What do you think about delaying the D and just being separated first for a while."

H: (immediately) Yeah. YOU'RE the one that was in such a rush to D.

I explained to him AGAIN about WHY I was in such a rush.


I would like to know again what you explained. Though, it will be hard to remember exactly, now that the conversation is a day or more old.

Did you bring up everything? The evidence you collected?
Or just the general stuff - like everyone could see that it wasn't working?

If you mentioned specific things, and all he said was "isn't it too late?" then there are still big problems. I would guess that you didn't mention specific things.

I don't want to slap you - this is your life, remember?

H: But isn't it too late??

SVB: No, not really. We can call the courthouse and pull the D paperwork. People stop Ds like that all the time.

I got up to go to the kitchen, and I just thought out loud, mumbling, "I've just been thinking, that's all. I don't know, I'm confused. I don't know." over and over again.



Ok.

One of the reasons you filed is that he treated you badly. Now he is treating you better.

Another is that he kept secrets.

Another is that you heard him saying (to his family) he was going to file in time.

Normally, I would ask questions at this point.

I just wonder if we decide to try separation for a while - I don't know -- 6 months -- a year -- am I just dragging the pain out? AM I setting myself up to be used some more? After I move, though, I don't know how this could be. We will be separated in all senses. We won't be tied together financially anymore.

I don't have answers for you. You still love him.
Does he still love you?
Will he come clean?
Do you want him if he won't?

My counselor wondered why I decided on D so fast. She said that she doesn't believe in making hasty decisions. I don't really think it was a hasty decision. I have been living through this for the past year and a half. I'll admit that the job decision was hasty, though! (but I don't regret it)
I have never thought of 1 1/2 years as being hasty.

At the same time, she said, "if it's meant to be, you can always get re-married."

True. But you won't have much to do with him after you move, so it's kind of a moot point.

At this point, I don't have to follow through on anything. I can just let the D process carry out. I didn't tell him that I WAS going to pull the D paperwork.

I recommend the same thing as always. Find a quiet place free of distractions. Think on it a while. Go over the evidence you have gathered. Compare him now, to how he was earlier when you made up your mind. Look at the changes he has made. See if they work for you. Make a decision - Yes, I was right. No, I need stop this.
Pray about what you decide.
Ask if you are right.
Listen for an answer - expect to get one.

Our communication is so horrible, though, he might be assuming right now that I am going to be doing that. That's how I got into this SUV trouble.

You use the word "Our"
One of you has to change that. I suspect he will not.

What do I do? What do I do? I'm not tough anymore, am I.

Being tough means you get through the doubts, not that you don't have them.

You are worth too much for me to want to slap you. I just want you to find peace.

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/08/05 01:33 PM
Hey s,

I will be working tonite, but wanted to get this to page 1 right away. Been thinking about you and wondering how you are!! Hope the move went ok.


jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/08/05 05:52 PM
Hi jls!

The move went pretty well. I only had two (emotional) breakdowns (so far). I dropped STBXH off at the airport this morning.

I don't have phone service or a modem yet, so I can't use my computer at home to get online yet. My apartment complex has a computer for internet use, though, so I'll be using that in the meantime. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have A LOT to do yet, so I won't be able to check in as often as I like, but I just wanted to give a quick update.

I'll post more about the move later.

svb
Posted By: _AD_ New Home - 06/08/05 05:59 PM
svb1,

Congratulations on a successful move.

Expect better times ahead.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/08/05 10:12 PM
It's good to know you got there safely. Only two breakdowns........but how are you now??? Should we worry?

No comments about H, or his behavior on the trip. That could be good, or bad. Hmmm........

From the start I wanted to know how you move fish. Did they make it OK too?

Realizing you have tons to do, I'll quit asking questions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

God be with you.

SS
Posted By: jlseagull Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/09/05 09:15 AM
What kind of an update was THAT? I want details! I am tired of my own sitch and would like to hear about somebody elses'!

Glad you are here safe, tho.

jls
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/09/05 02:59 PM
Yeah, we want a more complete story.

Is your Mom coming over and hanging around?

You start work on Monday?

Are there any single guys in the building? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/15/05 09:25 PM
SVB1,

Hey. It's about time you gave us a report! It's been a week!
How are things in the windy city?

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/15/05 10:41 PM
Hello

Wow, so much to say and so little time!

It has been a little over a week and I still don't have phone service. I'm at the computer in my apartment's clubhouse, but I keep getting kicked off. I've had to reconnect at least 5 times just to get here - very frustrating.

I really want to post more about my move, but I don't think I can right now. I have to type really fast!

I'm feeling pretty isolated from the rest of the world without phone service. I miss H, and I miss you guys, too. I haven't been able to read up on anyone here.

I've been feeling more blue than anything else these days. Being isolated and alone doesn't really help. I'm not as excited right now about my new adventure as I thought I'd be. I still have plenty of boxes to unpack. I'm also suffering from a pretty bad cold.

Work is going well, though, despite having to learn everything while feeling miserable (with the cold).

I better go for now, before I get kicked off again. Hopefully I'll have the phone connected soon in my apartment so that I can spend plenty of time on MB.

svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/15/05 11:32 PM
Thanks,
Still worry about you.

Look foreward to hearing how you are, how the trip went.

God be with you.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/15/05 11:39 PM
It's good to hear from you!

I know how it is to be cut off. For a week and a half, all I had for entertainment and communication at my house was a clock radio.

Missing your H is .... well, I miss my W too. I'm supposed to be in Plan B, but when the phone rings - and I know it's her, sometimes I answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure your H misses you too. I hope he does. Who knows what might happen if you miss each other enough.

I look forward to hearing all about it when you get better connected.

-AD
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/16/05 12:06 AM
Hi SVB,

Girl, with all you are going through, I'd be worried if you didnt feel blue. It's all part of the process. You are going through many huge life changes right now. It'll get better, really.

I remember after my D; I was just happy to have the OPPORTUNITY to TRY to meet someone else! Gave me energy to keep going through the lonlier times. I'm a big extrovert; I hated being alone (but I liked it better than being with HIM!).

Your H's statements about 'dont you think this is hard for me...things just happen' is very telling. There is a very SECRET SOMETHING so compelling that he cannot resolve it within the marriage. Being gay, sex addiction (various types), OW, whatever. He thinks he's getting out with the least damage. Very self-centered, doesnt even see what he's doing.

I'm sure he does feel very bad now that you've opened up to him. BUT... that still doesnt change the secret - he's just more conflicted about it.

But no matter what in the world he says or you feel, the secret must be delt with before you two could be happily married again, and I just dont see him doing it. He's not telling his family (from your recordings), so you can bet it's pretty nasty.

The reason I say that is that I see you double checking yourself. You have not been rash here. It WAS as bad as all that and you know it. Dont white-wash it because you're feeling lonely and sad. You know you're not crazy.

Hang tuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />! And please take care - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/16/05 11:14 PM
Ok, I'm going to post about the move. After I do that, I want to reply to you guys.

As I mentioned before, the physical move went pretty well. H busted his behind moving stuff into the truck and out. He drove the entire distance to Chicago and would not let me drive. (I had my car attached to the back on a car-carrying trailer). In our past moves I always drove at least part of the way. He was EXTREMELY pleasant throughout the entire trip. He seemed to REALLY go out of his way to help me out with the move.

Ok, now on to my breakdowns. The first one was during the drive. We were talking (I don't remember about what - probably my mother) and H said that he thought that IC seems to have really helped me. I asked him again about what our final decision was on separation. He seemed more wishy washy about it this time. He said, "yeah, maybe. Maybe you can call and find out how long you can postpone the D process." His attitude was a little strange, though.

I told him that it was my impression that he's going through some sort of mid-life crisis and that he doesn't know what he really wants in life - that he might have reached a certain age and felt that he hasnt reached his goals that he set in life. Now he wants to start over. I told him that I wasn't going to force him to be married to me if that's not what he wants. I said that if he were going to be married to me, I want him to REALLY want to be married to me.

He told me that he HASN't reached his goals. He said that he had planned to get married (but not before the age of 30), have children after 4 or 5 years of being married, and have a good job. He said that after we were married (4 or 5 years), he really wanted to have children, but he knew I wasn't ready (based on our discussions). He didn't want to force me to have them. He actually talked to me back then about getting a D. Now he said that he's past all of that. He's moved on to another stage of life where he doesn't want kids anymore. He's too old - the feeling just went away. He told me, "Unfortunately, you are at the stage now where YOU want children. Someday you might know how I feel. Maybe you can find someone to marry and have children with." (ok, this is where I broke down) How can he tell me to go find someone else and not show any emotions? I never imagined having kids with anyone else besides him. ANyway, he said that there is really no reason to stay married without children. THAT is the whole point of marriage.

My second breakdown was after we moved everything into my apartment. H's friend helped us move everything. In the evening, they decided to go out for pizza (by themselves). I actually encouraged H to go out alone with his friend - to catch up, etc. I was looking forward to being alone for the 1st time in my apartment to start to unpack and settle in. WOW, by the time they were about to leave, it just HIT ME all of a sudden. I just got sadder and sadder by the second. I was thinking, "WOW, I'm going to be ALONE in my apartment for the 1st time (without H)" I did a complete 180 in my mind. I was sitting down at that moment and I was making a list of everything that I needed to buy. H must have seen the look on my face and he came over and sat really close to me. He said, "let me see you list. Are you overwhelmed with everything that you need to buy?" I said, "no, I'm just.... sad. I can't help it." The tears started pouring. Well, H's friend decided to leave us alone for a little while. We only talked for a few minutes. H asked me again, "sometimes I wonder if we're making the right decision,too. Maybe everything hasn't hit me yet. Maybe I will feel like you do once I'm alone." I apologized for breaking down like that before they were going to leave. I really didn't plan on it. I encouraged him to go out with his friend. He did and I felt a little guilty.

Ok, that's the situation on the move. That was Tuesday night. On Wednesday morning, I drove H to the airport. I didnt have any more breakdowns. Right after that, I drove to my mom's house. She came back to my apartment that night with me and stayed till Friday night, helping me to unpack, etc. We drove out to her place together. On Saturday morning, I cut her grass, and then went back to my apartment alone in the afternoon. I was looking forward to settling in some more before starting work on Monday. I didn't do that much, though. I started feeling sick on Saturday (itchy throat, etc). I slept on Saturday night for 18 hours straight (no joke). I could have slept more, too. The only reason I got up was that I remembered to feed my fish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

SS, I emptied the 10 gallon tank about half way for the move. H and I placed the tank in between our seats in the front of the truck. There was plenty of room. The water only splashed a little when we hit bumps. No turtles, though. Sorry.

Gotta go for now. I'm hungry. (my fish are probably hungry, too) I'll try to post some more tomorrow.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/17/05 09:44 PM
Ok, I'm going to post about the move. After I do that, I want to reply to you guys.

We have all been waiting so patiently !!!

He was EXTREMELY pleasant throughout the entire trip. He seemed to REALLY go out of his way to help me out with the move.

Do you have thoughts on his being so helpful and seemingly happy?

Ok, now on to my breakdowns. The first one was during the drive. We were talking (I don't remember about what - probably my mother) and H said that he thought that IC seems to have really helped me. I always wondered if IC was part of his plan to let you down easy. I asked him again about what our final decision was on separation. He seemed more wishy washy about it this time. He said, "yeah, maybe. Maybe you can call and find out how long you can postpone the D process." His attitude was a little strange, though.

I am sure if he had doubts, he would have voiced them. I don't see tears, or fears, or doubts expressed at all.
I have thought about this.............. Sometimes all of us regret decisions. I can't see those big doubts in his actions, or his words anywhere. It's more like he doesn't want to seem too happy about it, so he hesitates. You were with him, you would know better than we would.

I told him that it was my impression that he's going through some sort of mid-life crisis and that he doesn't know what he really wants in life - that he might have reached a certain age and felt that he hasn't reached his goals that he set in life. Now he wants to start over. I told him that I wasn't going to force him to be married to me if that's not what he wants. I said that if he were going to be married to me, I want him to REALLY want to be married to me.

You had a long time to talk on this trip. More than at home because he couldn't watch TV. I admit I worried that you would open your heart to him, and he would break it again. Long drives can be good, or bad.

......................... He's moved on to another stage of life where he doesn't want kids anymore. He's too old - the feeling just went away. He told me, "Unfortunately, you are at the stage now where YOU want children. Someday you might know how I feel. Maybe you can find someone to marry and have children with." (OK, this is where I broke down) How can he tell me to go find someone else and not show any emotions? I never imagined having kids with anyone else besides him.

This was a big enough thing that counseling may have helped. Kids/no kids decisions affect those deepest parts of us. You know, you are there now. So often we say what we feel, and consider it to be over if the other doesn't talk, but there are usually deeper feelings that stay around for a long time. Consider the failed marriages over the death of a child, or failed fertility treatments.

In this case, it sounds like he kept some of HIS feelings hidden. Not communicating about things often hurts more than whatever it is what goes un-discussed. Creating good habits of communication (with spouse, or children) takes care of problems that could be serious, but never get bad if talked about, and solved.

I hope you don't feel more guilt about this, we only do as well as we know at the time. I have some questions about this children thing, but they are just my curiosity, not anything that would help you, so I'll leave you alone. Are you OK reading these things? Do I worry too much?

Anyway, he said that there is really no reason to stay married without children. THAT is the whole point of marriage.

Hummmmmmmmmm..................
We have 8 kids. We love them. Lots of work, lots of fun. They are important, and they are rewarding, but I wouldn't trade the relationship I have with my W for all the children in the world.
Marriage is so much more. It's .........It's................
It can't be put into mere words. All the love poems, or love songs ever written can't do it justice.

You feel the loss. Your mother gets along, but she can tell you about the loss too.
My wish for you is to find it again, with someone that respects you and treats you as you are willing to treat him. Marriage can be so much more than what XH gave you the last few years. I admit we have problems, but the love is still there. It can be what Dr Harley says, if needs are met, and LB's avoided. The work is worth it.

Kids are a new education, like Graduate School. You think you know it, then you find out all over again just how much more there is to learn.

My second breakdown was after we moved everything into my apartment. ...........................................I was sitting down at that moment and I was making a list of everything that I needed to buy. H must have seen the look on my face and he came over and sat really close to me. ............................The tears started pouring. Well, H's friend decided to leave us alone for a little while. We only talked for a few minutes. H asked me again, "sometimes I wonder if we're making the right decision, too. Maybe everything hasn't hit me yet. Maybe I will feel like you do once I'm alone." I apologized for breaking down like that before they were going to leave. I really didn't plan on it. I encouraged him to go out with his friend. He did and I felt a little guilty.

He sounds sincere here. I hope he really was. He seems so business like about the whole thing. It's like doing an accounting procedure change. Yesterday we did it that way, today this way, get used to it. I am more emotional, I couldn't take it. I even cry during sappy movies.

And, how are you now? After a week there, and after all the whirlwind work you had to do?

Ok, that's the situation on the move. That was Tuesday night. On Wednesday morning, I drove H to the airport. I didn't have any more breakdowns. Right after that, I drove to my mom's house. She came back to my apartment that night with me and stayed till Friday night, helping me to unpack, etc. We drove out to her place together.

Good for her, she may have faults, but I think she did that one right. I bet when your first child is born, she will be there the first week to help you with that too.


On Saturday morning, I cut her grass, and then went back to my apartment alone in the afternoon.

You do yard work too???
SSSUUUUSSSHHHHHHH, don't let AD see that!!!!!! You'll never get rid of him.

I better send you a big stick - you'll need it to beat the guys away with. Whatever you do, don't tell us when the D is final. Just be vague about it, until you are ready. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was looking forward to settling in some more before starting work on Monday. I didn't do that much, though. I started feeling sick on Saturday (itchy throat, etc). I slept on Saturday night for 18 hours straight (no joke). I could have slept more, too. The only reason I got up was that I remembered to feed my fish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Probably as much emotional as physical. Another thing I worried about. Glad your mom helped early on, glad you have those fish to get you mov'in.


SS, I emptied the 10 gallon tank about half way for the move. H and I placed the tank in between our seats in the front of the truck. There was plenty of room. The water only splashed a little when we hit bumps. No turtles, though. Sorry.

How fast did the fish go in the current??

Ha, I liked that movie. To tell the truth, I'm a wimp. I don't watch many of those "shoot em up" movies, they are too gory. I like Disney stuff. I took W to a Disney movie for one of our first dates, and she said that helped her make up her mind. Said she wanted someone that would be thinking about the kids, and what was good for them.

Gotta go for now. I'm hungry. (my fish are probably hungry, too) I'll try to post some more tomorrow.

Now I'm hungry too. What's for dinner?

Hey, thanks. Glad you are there safely. Sorry about the bad parts.
Do you keep busy to avoid thinking, or do you think a lot to get through it?
All the best -

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/19/05 06:57 PM
It's about time that I reply to some of you.

AD,

In a list of the top 5 stressors in life.

-Divorce,
-Moving
-Changing Jobs

are all there.

You are getting a triple whammy! (and it was your choice).

Yeah! Am I insane or what!

I know how it is to be cut off. For a week and a half, all I had for entertainment and communication at my house was a clock radio.

I've got a loaner 13" tv. All I can get on it is the FOX channel - sort of. I don't even turn it on. I'm looking into buying a new tv - then I'll get cable. I have a radio, too. The phone situation - I hope - will be resolved in a day or two. I was FINALLY able to contact the phone company on Friday morning. They had my address down wrong. I had tried to contact them previously, but after being on hold for a representative for 15 minutes every time, I'd end up hanging up. The longest I decided to wait before hanging up was 40 MINUTES! It's kind of difficult to be on hold so long at work (at a new job) or on a pay phone.

I look at it this way - at least I'm saving money on phone, cable, and electricity bills! It's still tough to be cut off, though.

Missing your H is .... well, I miss my W too. I'm supposed to be in Plan B, but when the phone rings - and I know it's her, sometimes I answer.

I was finally able to read up on your situation this weekend. (I'm at my mom's) I wish I could give you advice on what to do. I just worry that your W is only interested in getting back together with you because --

1. She needs you as a meal ticket.
2. Pressure from her family?

I hate to admit it, and I hope it's not the case, but I can't help wondering.

I wonder the same thing with my H. It's always at the back of my mind. Before I moved out, H asked me to write down my address in his phone book. I asked him, "are you sure you really want it? Don't you just want to lose it?" He said, "no, I was actually even thinking of visiting later on this summer. I could visit my friend, so and so." I could think, "hey, he wants to come out and see me! There is hope afterall!" More likely, though, I am a place to stay in Chicago. He figures he could always stay with me,and then branch out from there to visit his friends. Also, I also wonder if he figures that the next time his family visits from Argentina, he can bring them to my place in Chicago for a while. His favorite sister has been to the States to visit him, but has never been to Chicago.

Of course, I hope that my H will really miss me (and your W really misses you). I guess time will tell.

Happy Father's Day, BTW.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/19/05 07:12 PM
Hi Drucilla,

I remember after my D; I was just happy to have the OPPORTUNITY to TRY to meet someone else! Gave me energy to keep going through the lonlier times. I'm a big extrovert; I hated being alone (but I liked it better than being with HIM!).

I am more of an introvert. I still hate being alone sometimes. Being an introvert will make it difficult to meet someone else. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your H's statements about 'dont you think this is hard for me...things just happen' is very telling. There is a very SECRET SOMETHING so compelling that he cannot resolve it within the marriage. Being gay, sex addiction (various types), OW, whatever. He thinks he's getting out with the least damage. Very self-centered, doesnt even see what he's doing.

You're right. It's strange, but with H being nice recently, and now with being alone, I tend to "forget" about all of the nasty stuff. It creeps into my mind every once in a while, though. SS mentioned it somewhere previously, too.

1. Years of emotional abuse.
2. The secrets and lies.
3. He was telling his family that he was going to D me eventually anyway.

I have to keep this in my mind. My mother has been good at doing this for me this weekend. She is really stuck on issue #1 - years of emotional abuse. She says I need to find someone who will treat me like a human being. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes I wonder if it would have been better if I HAD found out his secret. If he then didn't want to resolve/ work on it, it would have been so much easier to move on and never look back.

Thanks for reminding me, too. It helps to take my doubts away.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/19/05 08:19 PM
Hi SS,

Happy Father's Day to you, too.

8 kids! I read that somewhere about you. It seems to me like you might have a kid or two to spare. I can take one of the twins. No, wait, I wouldn't want to separate them. I can take them both.

I spent some time with my nieces this weekend (7 and 10). My littlest niece said some interesting things. We were at my mom's (who still has wedding pictures up of H and me). She said to me, "You have to take those down now." I said, "Take what down?" I didn't see what she was talking about. "THOSE pictures!" She pointed to them. She said, "you're getting a D now." Apparently my brother and SIL have filled them in. I'm glad, because I wasn't sure what to tell them. THEN she said, "Are you going to get a NEW husband?" "Are you going to have kids?" She's really a character.

We have 8 kids. We love them. Lots of work, lots of fun. They are important, and they are rewarding, but I wouldn't trade the relationship I have with my W for all the children in the world.
Marriage is so much more. It's .........It's................
It can't be put into mere words. All the love poems, or love songs ever written can't do it justice.

That's what I really want. That's why I don't understand what H said about M and having kids (no kids = no marriage). Apparently he doesn't feel the same way. What if I weren't ABLE to have kids? I want a M WITH or WITHOUT kids.

Do you have thoughts on his being so helpful and seemingly happy?

Yes. Either...

1. He is happy to get out of the M so easily, and wants to end things quickly and painlessly. AND look great to his family.

2. He feels guilty.

I am sure if he had doubts, he would have voiced them. I don't see tears, or fears, or doubts expressed at all.
I have thought about this.............. Sometimes all of us regret decisions. I can't see those big doubts in his actions, or his words anywhere. It's more like he doesn't want to seem too happy about it, so he hesitates. You were with him, you would know better than we would.

That sounds about right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I hope you don't feel more guilt about this, we only do as well as we know at the time. I have some questions about this children thing, but they are just my curiosity, not anything that would help you, so I'll leave you alone. Are you OK reading these things? Do I worry too much?

I've been thinking a lot about this. Yes, I DO feel guilty. I wonder if we had children when he wanted them, we wouldn't be going through this right now. HE would be happy and I would be happy.

I'm curious about what you're curious about.

I look back at the time when he really wanted children. (around 2000) I didn't feel ready then. It's a long story, but I really wanted to establish myself in my career first. I felt that if I had kids at that point, I would never have reached my goal in my career. I felt like I would have then resented my H and the kids. I'm sure that I would have loved my children when I had them, but I would have felt that something else was missing. I felt as if I would have gotten depressed afterwards. Well, I reached that career goal, and then I felt READY to have kids. I could have given up the career, knowing that I had already reached my goal, and could have gone back to it at a later time. I could feel at that point that I could give my ALL to my kids. That's what I want now. I explained ALL of this to H. I told him that it's not that I didn't want kids, I didn't want them THEN. I asked him to give me a little more time. Well, now it's too late. After that he put having children OUT of his mind. I kind of wonder if it gave him license to do whatever out of our M. I wonder if he felt, "ok, she is more interested in her career than me and a family. I am going to do what I want now." If I look at his behavior in the past, I can see where he might have checked out of our M then. He started some strange behaviors back then. (sneaking out, lies).

How can I not feel guilty now?

I look back and now I wonder if I were being really selfish by focusing on my career then. Like I said, I would have loved my kids no matter what. I was raised to go to college and get a good job afterwards. My mother didn't want me to ever to HAVE to depend on a man - unless I wanted to. She wanted me to be an independent woman (unlike the women of her country) After I went to school and got a good job THEN I could get M and have kids - if I wanted to.

I don't know if my H really understood this. He is from the same country as my mother. None of his sisters (6 of them) or his mother got an education. There's nothing wrong with that either, but I think it's more of the norm for them. They were not PUSHED to go to school and get a career as well. But it's different for them, too. THey can AFFORD to stay at home and be housewives and moms. Not only that, but they have HELP that comes every week to help them clean. In MY case, I would be expected (or needed) to work - at least part time - take care of the kids, AND do most of the housework. Also remember that NOTHING that I do is EVER good enough for H. If I were already lazy and worthless, what would he say about me being a mom? That really scared me, too. I also wanted to buy a house before we had kids (I know, not necessary, but nice) H told me that he didn't want to buy a house because I wouldn't keep it clean. (But yet he wasn't worried about me not taking care of the kids?) I don't get any of it. In recent conversations to his sister, I've heard him tell her about how FEMINIST the women of this country are - with HATE in his voice.

I don't know. I'm not sure if I'm even explaining myself well. Apparently I didn't explain it very well to H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is ALL I thought about on Friday night.

Now look at me. Now I have a career - and I have NOTHING else. Maybe I should have had children back then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ok, now I'm too bummed to write any more.
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 04:08 PM
Hi SVB,

Please dont be too bummed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> .

You know what stood out to me? The kids thing. Men with histories that include 'years of emotional abuse and secrets' usually dont get better once the kids come along. Seemed my dad really, really wanted my mom stuck at home with the kids. Made it easier for him to continue his secret life.

It also occured to me that this man is VERY calculating. So calculating that the kids thing may have been a very big part of his plan (for any number of unwholesome reasons). Planning a divorce a year in advance.. the nerve! Kids may well be in your future, but I think this man would have made you miserable with kids.

See, I didnt even know about the years of emotional abuse and I still thought he was a little 'off'. One day, I think you are going to thank your lucky stars that you got to start over without him! I'm really glad your mother is there and supportive.

Remember to be careful not to set up any bad habits with your mother, too. Habits need to be established early, like calling before coming over and walking in without knocking. Get this right early so you dont have to deal with it later. I know you were worried about your mother being too involved. It's your life, you make the rules <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> !

I still feel tuffness in you!! I hope you have a really good day today. Take care - Dru
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 05:20 PM
Quote
On Saturday morning, I cut her grass, and then went back to my apartment alone in the afternoon.

You do yard work too???
SSSUUUUSSSHHHHHHH, don't let AD see that!!!!!! You'll never get rid of him.

I better send you a big stick - you'll need it to beat the guys away with. Whatever you do, don't tell us when the D is final. Just be vague about it, until you are ready. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Too late, SS!

... and I've got 3 acres that looks like it needs mowing twice a week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 05:35 PM
SVB1,

I'm one of your fans (as "everyone" apparently knows <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), but this just jumped out at me. Probably I'm sensitive to this because I think my marriage got in trouble from the very beginning due to my MIL'S overinvolvment and my wife's inability to detach from her Mom.

Quote
I was raised to [...]. My mother didn't want me to [...]. She wanted me to be an independent woman [....]

There is much more of interest in your post - and I appologize for not commenting more completely - but I'm at work, and determined to work, so I'll have to get back to it later.

I know you're hurting - and ... I don't really have a sense of what could be going on in your H's mind. He seems pretty detached - but maybe it really was just a case of you and he having different visions.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 10:36 PM
Hi Drucilla,

I'm feeling much better today. Thanks.

You know, I've been off of my Lexapro for a few days. I ran out, and I'm deciding whether I should renew it or not. It's not like I have to deal with H on a daily basis anymore and the anxiety involved. (I originally started it because of the anxiety I suffered). Maybe it's better to just live through the pain for now. But it probably explains why I've been extra-bummed these past few days.

You know what stood out to me? The kids thing. Men with histories that include 'years of emotional abuse and secrets' usually dont get better once the kids come along. Seemed my dad really, really wanted my mom stuck at home with the kids. Made it easier for him to continue his secret life.

Wow, that's an interesting point. It makes sense. It would also give him COMPLETE control.

See, I didnt even know about the years of emotional abuse and I still thought he was a little 'off'. One day, I think you are going to thank your lucky stars that you got to start over without him!

Boy, I hope so, and SOON!

Remember to be careful not to set up any bad habits with your mother, too. Habits need to be established early, like calling before coming over and walking in without knocking. Get this right early so you dont have to deal with it later. I know you were worried about your mother being too involved. It's your life, you make the rules !

I've been trying to do this. My C warned me of this, too. For instance, I was a little worried about having her help me to unpack. I was stressed that she would start setting up everything HER way. I did make a point of talking to her and saying that I DO appreciate, and will consider, her input, but in the end, I'm going to do it my way. I think she understood and took it well.

I'm trying to stay tuff!

Where IS jls, BTW?
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 10:47 PM
AD,

... and I've got 3 acres that looks like it needs mowing twice a week.

Don't you have a riding mower?? Sounds like a piece of cake to me!! I could steer with one hand and have a diet coke in the other. Does it have a cup holder?

My mom has a push mower. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Not to mention ALL KINDS of obstacles -- bird baths, flamingos, etc. Ok, no flamingos, but still... by the time I'm done I'm about to die. I have to keep telling myself "this is good for me - it's good exercise."

There is much more of interest in your post - and I appologize for not commenting more completely - but I'm at work, and determined to work, so I'll have to get back to it later.

I'm just happy to have any comments at all. You know how it is. I'm grateful to have you all here. But, yes, PLEASE don't get into trouble at work on account of me!

svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 10:48 PM
I'll talk about the serious stuff later, but for now, here's what the twins said -

Just as an introduction, I told them a little about you, and your story, and where you live. These are actual quotes, I wrote them down. Laughed a lot too, as I wrote. I won't put quotes by them all, but all the rest below is all their questions.

Does she have a horse?

How come she wants kids?

Does she have a pool?

Is this for real?

Is her house nice?

Would we have to go to school there?

Does she like kids?

Can I go by myself?

Would I get to fly on an airplane?

Is this just for a year, or would it be longer?

Do I get my own room?

It would be fun, but I want to come back after a while.

How do you know her?

How old is she?

Where is C?


I think I left a few on another sheet of paper, will check when I get home.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 11:11 PM
Too funny! That cracked me up!

Here are the selling points. I have TWO pools. One outdoor pool and one INDOOR pool. (I can swim year-round if I wanted to - that's my goal anyway)

There's also a HUGE water park nearby -- wave pool, winding river w/tubes, and 25 water slides.

Um ... here's the down side.

Though it's a big apartment, it's only a one bedroom apartment. They'll have to sleep in the closet. I've got a HUGE walk in closet though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/20/05 11:17 PM
You know, I'm only half kidding about the closet. I actually have a queen size inflatable mattress in case I ever have guests (for the living room).

As for the closet, did I mention that I met my neighbor and she actually sleeps in her closet? She showed me the mattress in her closet. She has a studio apartment, though, and, as I mentioned, the closets are HUGE. (She's also recently D'd after being married for 10 years.)

AD,
I forgot to mention that I haven't noticed any single men around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/21/05 01:22 AM
svb1,

Yeah, I've got a riding mower. 54". It's only 3 weeks old, but I've already bent one of the spindles - hit a chunk of firewood in the tall grass. That'll be $50 - not too bad. I think after I've got the place tamed, it will only take 3 hours to mow.

No single men, you say? Have you been to the laundrymat?

I was there this afternoon - and I counted 3 (including me) men there alone. One of them might have not been single - had rather colorful clothes in his stuff. Hopefully, I'll buy a W/D pair this weekend and be finished with that.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/21/05 09:57 PM
Hi AD,

3 hours to mow it all! That's almost half of an entire workday.

No single men, you say? Have you been to the laundrymat?

Well, to be honest, I'm not really looking - yet. I only mentioned that because you asked before. I still have my wedding ring on, too - much to the dismay of my mother. She already told me, "Take that thing off already!" BTW, I have a washer and dryer in my apartment, so no need to go to the laundrymat. I'm probably setting myself up for failure for the day that I DO start to look!

svb
Posted By: still seeking Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/22/05 05:07 AM
I wanted to do a long post tonight, but I have run out of time. We leave for Girls camp at 5:30 am, but at least we are all packed up.

The twins read about sleeping in the closet, and they say they will do it, but of course, they know their dad couldn't live without them, so they are resigned to stay here, even though the two pools call to them.

I realize you must be lonely, and that the feelings are hard on you. I extend my prayers, and support across the miles. May you weather the storm, and may the sunrise be sweet for you.

Don't worry so much about what happens the next few months. Just live each day the best you can, make plans for the future, and keep busy.

See you when I get back, let us know how the job is, and how you are feeling. Don't be afraid to be honest with us.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Hello to C town - 06/22/05 05:23 AM
svb,

Well, I think it is honorable to keep the ring on until you are D'ed. That's what I'm doing. I like wearing it. As for "not looking", that also is the absolutely correct approach - for so many reasons.

I was only half-joking about the laundrymat. A guy who can't afford a washer/dryer is probably a loser anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'll get mine... soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was thinking about what your H said - about kids and careers and such.

Please forgive me if I comment on it. I know it's a sensitive topic. I've been hesitating to write about it.

I can see two options. Either this could been just an "excuse" - a way to make the failure of the marriage appear to be all your fault, or it could be a very significant truth about your H's feelings about the marriage.

What if it is, really, what he has felt. Imagine being in his shoes. He thinks that a man provides for his family, but you make more money than he does - and he doesn't know how to raise his income faster than yours goes up - to overcome what he percieves as a failure on his part. Also, you didn't want to have children - when he did. Not only was he then not the man to you that he (perhaps desparately) wanted to be, but he didn't even have the opportunity to be "the man", the father. And this was not only a matter of his direct personal experience, but a matter of pride. So that he might have felt that in the eyes of his family and of the people who he respected, he was a loser and a failure.

I can start to "feel" something for him - to get a sense of his inner despair. Perhaps he complained about this situation - talked about having kids, but I suspect that he could not come to you and really explain what he was feeling because he would have felt humiliated to have to come to you with his problems. He wanted to be the man but you were, so to speak, wearing the pants.

To complete this view, I hesitate... because all of this is painful for you and maybe I'm completely wrong - and I don't know what to do about it anyway, but you have written that you are 6' tall. Please forgive me. I don't mean to hurt you. If all of this is true of your H, perhaps your very physical characteristics undermined his sense of manhood relative to you. If he had an A, I would be surprised if the woman were not much shorter than you.

I hope I haven't hurt you by my guessing game.

If I'm correct, it's a matter of conflicting visions of marriage and family.

I'm starting to see the humanity of your H, where before he just seemed like a cold, distant man.

I'm going to venture a bit farther. You wrote that your "mother wanted you to be an independent woman". Have you been, throughout the marriage, afraid to let go - and trust your H to take care of you? If I recall correctly, you have written that he's not so good at taking care of finances and such. If he knew that this was your attitude - it's just another blow to his sense of manhood. He knew that you didn't trust him - were not willing to rely on him - but he wanted somebody to take care of, and you would not take the risk.

Does any of this make sense? Am I way off base here?

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Hello to C town - 06/22/05 05:32 AM
svb,

Now, there is a strange episode which goes against what I wrote. You told us that you had some kind of fainting spell, and instead of taking care of you, your H disbelieved it and treated you as if you were faking. That's the opposite of what I would expect him to do, unless you have a history of faking - which you hinted at.

I'm going to counterbalance Drucilla here...

I was about to suggest that you fake a crisis to see if he comes to your rescue, but now that doesn't seem like a good idea.

But you did take a lower-paying job. That's a start, at least.

SVB, if you truely let go - quit your job, left all the finances in his hands, allowed him to have a large turf in which you didn't meddle, (if you knew he would return to you), how would you feel about that kind of life? Do you think you could ever let go and allow your H (this one or a subsequent one) to take charge of things?

If the answer is yes, and if my guesses are right, there might be a chance with him still. It would be very difficult, but not impossible, I think.

-AD
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Hello to C town - 06/22/05 05:11 PM
You know AD, I'm really with you on this. I can certainly see how a man would be hurt by a woman not wanting to have children in favor of her career. I can see how either spouse would be hurt about delaying pregnancy, for whatever reason.

But (apparently) this man wasnt very nice to svb from early on in the marriage. Whatever his issues, the firm footing needed before having children certainly wasnt there. And for whatever reason (career being convenient), delaying pregnancy may have been in svb's best interest. She was enjoying her career while giving her marriage time to solidify. That doesnt seem too extreme.

But I'm kinda with you in that he may be using that as an excuse. Nothing else I've read about him indicates a caring, generous, daddy-type nature. The kids thing almost seems out of character, from this side of the screen.

It seems his character has been pretty consistant over the years, and not good, either! You can only deal with what you're presented with, and he's not given her much to work with.

SVB, I hope you are settling in nicely. Please take care - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: Forget H, I'M leaving - 06/22/05 10:42 PM
Hello SS,

That's ok, I understand. Have a good time w/your family.
It sounds as if you're going to be away for a long time!

I'll manage over here. I AM going to try to stay busy. My friend is coming over to see my apartment (for the 1st time) tomorrow night and have dinner. She's been extremely involved in a budding romance. She's giddy and I think she can't wait to give me all the details tomorrow (I'm happy for her and am looking forward to get the scoop). It's tough not having a phone STILL. She's been keeping me informed on the status of my phone. Apparently, when you call my number it no longer says, "the number you reached has been disconnected." It NOW says, "the number you reach is not yet connected." It seems like progress to me.

My nieces will be spending the weekend with me. (I won't make them sleep in the closet.) They are looking forward to spending time at the pool(s).

ONE day, when I no longer have to stop at the clubhouse to get on the internet after work, I plan on going STRAIGHT TO THE GYM, instead. It's time to get svb back into shape.
No more sitting on her butt in front of the computer all day at work and all night, too!

OK, not that you asked me specifically for my plans, but there they are!
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/22/05 11:58 PM
Hello AD,

I was only half-joking about the laundrymat. A guy who can't afford a washer/dryer is probably a loser anyway. I'll get mine... soon.

About a week or so ago, you could have had our washer and dryer. Of course, you would have had to go get them in Philly from my H! He just sold ours the other day.
(He can't have a washer and dryer in his new apt, and my apt. comes with them.)

Please forgive me if I comment on it. I know it's a sensitive topic. I've been hesitating to write about it.

I really appreciate your comments. Don't hesitate to say anything at all that comes to mind. It's good to have different perspectives. You haven't hurt me by anything you've said.

I can see two options. Either this could been just an "excuse" - a way to make the failure of the marriage appear to be all your fault, or it could be a very significant truth about your H's feelings about the marriage.

I've really been thinking about this a lot. I can see both sides of it. That is why I feel so CONFUSED. Sometimes I think of how I have contributed to my M's failure and I feel so guilty. Other times, I remember the horrible things that my H has said and done, and I feel relieved to be away (like Drucilla said). I honestly don't know what to think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I can give you some more facts to support your theory on my H not feeling like a man being married to me.

1. When H wanted to start a family, he always wanted to be promoted at work first - so that he would be better able to provide for us. That never happened as he planned it -- till now. I know he has always felt frustrated at work about that (and possibly felt like a failure).

2. When we were first married, I was in the military. I was the military member and he was my "dependent." Oh how he HATED to be called my "dependent."

3. To go along with number 2, H considered joining the military. He really would have enjoyed it, as a matter of fact. Do you know why he didn't? Because he would have started out at a lower rank than ME. He specifically told me that. I thought "who cares?" -- but apparently HE did.

It makes sense and you are not way off base here.

To complete this view, I hesitate... because all of this is painful for you and maybe I'm completely wrong - and I don't know what to do about it anyway, but you have written that you are 6' tall. Please forgive me. I don't mean to hurt you. If all of this is true of your H, perhaps your very physical characteristics undermined his sense of manhood relative to you. If he had an A, I would be surprised if the woman were not much shorter than you.

I'm ok, trust me. But I am a little confused here. Are you saying that his OW would be much shorter than me?

Please keep in mind that I NEVER rubbed in that I made more $$$ than H, etc. I never looked at it like that.

As for the finances, I have always been the "bookkeeper." I enjoy doing it. H always hated it. I am great with numbers, he is not. He would admit it. I would keep the checkbook and create a "budget." He liked that I did that. It was just one of the tasks that we both agreed that I would take on when we married. As for planning our finances, we always made the decisions together -- what to invest in, how, big purchases, etc. I even heard him tell his sister once (recently) that he will let any future woman in his life handle the "finances" like I did. He just wants to be told how much he can spend or not spend.
(that was hard to hear)

I would have considered staying at home to raise a family and let him work and provide. (but possibly working part time) I even mentioned it to him (last year or so). But it is too late. He told me, when I approached him, to NEVER bring up the topic again. He said that it took him a LONG time get having children OUT of his mind and he didn't want me to say anything about it and confuse him. He says he's too old to have kids. BTW, as I mentioned before, HE wanted to start a family around the year 2000. I finally felt ready and told him so two years later -- in 2002. He told me THEN that he wasn't sure if he wanted kids anymore. Then of course last year he SCREAMED at me to never bring it up again. Why does he feel that it is too late? Do some guys feel that they are too old to have kids?

At the same time, there was always a little bit of worry at the back of my mind about having children. Yes, my H can be very controlling and mean tempered. I worried about how he would treat the children. Every time I met with his sisters back in his home country they always asked me how he "treated" me. They "know" how he is. One sister told me once, "he would be VERY STRICT as a father, but he would be a good father." At the same time, he has always loved kids. He's got 25 nieces and nephews. He always loved playing with them and spending time with them (and friends' kids, etc). But how would he act with his own kids?

Like Drucilla says (hi Drucilla!), maybe it's for the best that I never find out.

Oh, I'm still so confused.

I have to go, they're about to close the offices here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Hello to C town - 06/23/05 05:28 AM
Hi SVB,

I'm glad you didn't take offense at my comments. Also, I wanted to say that even if you and your H had different visions of marriage, that doesn't mean that it was up to you to change your vision. I was just trying to figure out your H.

Quote
Are you saying that his OW would be much shorter than me?

Yeah, sorry. Some things I write sound like Bilbo Baggins' party speech.

I think she would be shorter. But I've got nothing to go on in that prediction.

Well, g'night.

My daughter is going to be here tomorrow evening and night, so I'd better get some sleep so I can be my best.

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Hello to C town - 06/24/05 03:31 PM
SVB,

I regret my little guessing game on your H's mind and life. I guessed wrong on the bookkeeping role. I think I read him wrong. It's really hard for me to get a read on him from what you have said about him. He seems so distant. Maybe it all is MLC with a side-order of depression. Maybe it has nothing at all to do with you. Maybe... I shouldn't speculate about it.

I hope you are having some good days - and a great time with your nieces!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/24/05 10:01 PM
Good news! I finally have a phone line in my apt.! It only took two and a half weeks, but who's counting? Now I have access to the Internet 24 hours a day!

AD,

Please don't regret your guessing game. I keep playing my own guessing game! It changes from day to day. Plus, like I said before, I don't think you're way off base at all with what you said.

As for the bookkeeping thing, that's MY fault. I don't think I explained myself very well in the past.

I was thinking some more last night about H not feeling like "the man" being with me. To take it a little further, though, I was thinking that if he doesn't feel like "the man," or if he feels insecure in any way, that's no reason for him to cut me down, or "put me in my place," which he often did. I think he would do that to make him feel better about himself, somehow. Lately, again, I'm feeling a little better about being on my own.

I hope you are having some good days - and a great time with your nieces!

I had a great time with my old friend last night. We both laughed (like I haven't laughed in a LONG time) and cried. My mom will be over tomorrow morning with my nieces. They are READY to hit the pool. It is HOT here right now!

I hope you have a wonderful time with your DD.

Posted By: _AD_ Re: Hello to C town - 06/25/05 02:38 AM
Well, I'm glad I didn't offend.

You are absolutely right that there was no reason for him to cut you down. That was just cruel and stupid. Maybe the breakup is all for the best...

Laughter is great medicine. I can't remember when I last had a good laugh.

Happy weekend to you!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/27/05 05:14 AM
How do I change the title to my thread "I asked H to leave?" Boy, THAT was a long time ago.

I had a wonderful weekend with my nieces. We went swimming both yesterday and today. Last night we went to the Rainforest Cafe. We had them bring out a cake and sing to my littlest niece for her birthday. Her birthday is on Wednesday - same as H's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (No Black Forest cake for H this year - he's going to have to make it for himself.) I think I might send him an e-birthday card, though.

My niece asked about H and the D again this weekend - twice.
"Are you mad and Uncle (H)? What did he do that was so mean?" I don't know what my brother has told them. I really need to talk to him. What do you tell a 7 (almost 8) year old?

Where is that man with 8 kids?

"Are you going to get married again? Are you going to have kids?" I said, "I don't know - time will tell. Do you WANT me to get married and have kids?" She said, "NO! I want you to stay single!" My older niece yelled, "YES!"

My nieces are loveable, especially the little one. She hugs me all of the time and tells me that she loves me. It makes me feel better. She told her cousins last weekend, "not only is she my aunt, but she is my GODMOTHER, too!" She seemed so proud.

Well, they left with my mother late this afternoon. I left out their cups, etc. for a long while after they left. I guess as proof that life other than my own existed in my apartment (or hotel room - as my niece would accidentally say) this weekend. How pathetic is that?
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/27/05 05:32 AM
Here is something else that's pretty pathetic. I called H yesterday morning before my visitors arrived. We talked for about 30 minutes. I hadn't had any contact with him since last Monday. He sent me an email that day and I replied. I didn't hear anything else from him till I called.

As I mentioned previously, I finally got my phone connected on Friday. After work on Friday, I came home and had FOUR messages on my machine - 1 from my brother, 2 from my friend, and 1 from my mother. It seems that ALL of them had been calling my new number periodically to see if it was connected. Of course, that would be all of the important people in my life - except for H. Yet I STILL call H the following morning to say, "Hey, my phone is connected!" He was heading out for a bike ride when I called. If he really cared, he would have figured it out by himself by then - like everyone else in my life.

Why do I still expect or hope for him to care? Why can't I let go still?

The only good thing about the phone call is that I ended it, saying, "listen, I have to go, my nieces will be over at any time and there's some stuff I still have to take care of." At least it would appear that I have somewhat of a life. I was really upbeat, too, during the conversation. He did ask a lot about my work, health, finances, etc. I wonder if it's just out of curiosity more than actual concern.

I don't think I'll contact him anymore in any way (well, after the e-birthday card), unless it's absolutely necessary. He can contact me if he wants to from now on.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Hello to C town - 06/27/05 05:32 AM
Hi SVB,

Good to "see" you.

Quote
How do I change the title to my thread "I asked H to leave?" Boy, THAT was a long time ago.

Just go to the first post on the thread and edit it. Change the title there.

Quote
I had a wonderful weekend with my nieces.

Oh, aren't little girls GREAT!

Quote
She hugs me all of the time and tells me that she loves me. It makes me feel better.

If it didn't make you feel better, we would know you were dead!

My little DD is 4.5 years. She likes to jump on me. It hurts, but I never complain - 'cause it's just about the best form of pain. She laughs so when she does that to me!

Quote
She seemed so proud.

As she should be.

Quote
I left out their cups, etc. for a long while after they left.

I'm always especially sad after DD leaves. Every time she comes we make cookies. (I think now in 3 weeks she's made cookies more times with me than she has ever with her Mom.) When I'm feeling a bit down, I go eat one - and remember that she helped make them.

It sounds like just the right medicine for a broken heart - the pure innocent love of children.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/27/05 06:05 AM
Hi AD,

Good to "see" you, too. Still not sleeping, I see?

Thanks for the info on changing the title. I am actually now debating just killing this thread and starting a new one. This was supposed to be my official plan B thread. I am way past that now. I guess I need a plan D/moving on thread now.

Oh, aren't little girls GREAT!

Yeah, you're a lucky, lucky guy, AD. She's all yours.
My nieces will be in town through the holiday. Then they will go back to where they live -- Kentucky. But at least I will see them more often now in Chicago than when I was in Philly. They come to visit family often in Chicago. I plan to visit my brother and his family as often as I can in KY, too.

Every time she comes we make cookies. (I think now in 3 weeks she's made cookies more times with me than she has ever with her Mom.)

That's sweet. I can almost picture that.

BUT...

When I'm feeling a bit down, I go eat one - and remember that she helped make them.

That sounds like it could be dangerous. I hope you don't feel down too often. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SVB
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Hello to C town - 06/27/05 02:52 PM
SVB,

I have to confess that I saw your post last night about 2:15am, and didn't reply then. No, I'm not sleeping well lately. I've got to just go to bed (already).

Yes, well, the cookies...

... are not the only thing I eat. I don't have scales at the house, but I'm afraid I do have mirrors. Not good.

I hope things look bright and cheerful for you today.
You sound strong.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/28/05 03:23 AM
H called me tonight. He really surprised me. We talked for almost an hour. Honestly, I have to admit that I was happy that he called. But still, there was nothing in our conversation to give me any hope that things might eventually work out between us.

Initially, we talked business. We discussed cancelling our joint (still) Internet account. He is also confused about how to pay his cc bill on-line.

He also said that he wants me to...

1. Get my car checked out. My wheel REALLY squeaks ever since I had the tires rotated. (about a week before I moved.)

2. Find a new IC in the area. (he really stressed this one)

3. Get my headaches checked out. I get migraines --- sometimes pretty often. I've already been to a Dr. about this, though, a long time ago. Based on the symptoms (and family history) the doc told me I suffered from migraines. I never had any "tests" done, though, so H thinks that I should get an MRI done, or CT scan. He thinks I should rule out anything else. (maybe my fainting spell had more of an affect on him than I thought)

He is also worried about my financial situation. I really don't know why. He knows that I make less money now, but I never told him how much less. Maybe he figured it out on his own. He doesn't want me to have to ask my family for $$$. He told me that he would send me $$$ if I needed it - just let him know. I did admit to him tonight that I make less than he does now - but I'm ok money-wise. I just have to be on a really, really, really strict budget.

He asked about my weekend with my nieces. I went on and on about it (of course). He laughed about it. He just adores the little one (his birthday buddy). He admitted to me tonight that he sees me in my little niece and he's worried that my family is going to corrupt her. (My mother being contolling (and her older sister), etc.) Why doesn't he see this sort of stuff in himself??

Anyway, that was our conversation. Does anyone have any ideas on his behavior?

AD,

I have to confess that I saw your post last night about 2:15am, and didn't reply then. No, I'm not sleeping well lately. I've got to just go to bed (already).

I'm glad you didn't post to me last night. (that sounds bad, doesn't it?)

I've been going to sleep pretty late myself lately. I can't seem to get myself on a set schedule/routine yet. I went to bed really late last night and my butt was dragging at work today. I hate that feeling.

I don't have scales at the house, but I'm afraid I do have mirrors. Not good.

Oh yeah? Well I have a scale AND mirrors. Very scary.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Hello to C town - 06/28/05 03:54 AM
Hi.

I have mixed feelings tonight.

You have mixed feelings too.

Please tell me why you think you are confused.


I like to go back (when I get back from being away) and comment on stuff, but as I said, I have mixed feelings.

Sorry you aren't getting enough sleep. It tells me your conflicted feelings are REALLY STRONG. Oh, I would guess part of it is moving, and being in a different apartment, and so on, but still.........

I like the way you take care of your nices. I like that they love you, and know you are safe. I like that you like it.

I am still thinking about direction. Not sure tonight, but will think some more. Mostly you need time, and you probably know that, but it's still hard.

Again, reaching out across the miles.....
May you feel peace.
May you feel calm.
May your prayers be answered.
May you feel Gods love, for he loves you dearly.
May you understand your worth, for you are priceless.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Settling in C - 06/28/05 04:09 AM
SVB,

I understand the feeling - when the phone rings, my heart feels glad. I know who it is. I should also remember what state she's in, but still, she's my one and only (so far). I don't think it's a bad thing that you feel glad that your H called. Why not? You've loved him for a long time. You still love him. You know the odds are against you reconciling with him, but still you hope - and hope is a good thing as long as you don't cling to it too desparately.

I'm sure your H misses you too. That's why he found reasons to keep talking so long. He misses, it seems, also your family - nieces. This is all good. Will it change anything? I haven't the foggiest idea.

I'm glad he shows concern for you. If you have insurance that will pay for it, it couldn't hurt to have whatever medical check you can get.

(Brace yourself for scarey medical story).

I knew a lady - about 30 years old at the time - a schoolteacher, who had one fainting spell too many. Her cousin, who happend to be an EMT, was with her and saw it. He insisted that she be thoroughly checked out. They found that she had a congenital heart defect. (As a child, she was supposed to have had a heart murmur, but nobody followed up on it.) So, she had heart surgery to close a hole between the two chambers of her heart - about the size of a quarter. After that, she was much stronger, more vigorous etc. It's the kind of thing that should have been caught long before, but when she had fainting spells, they were just explained away as "stress" or "nerves" or something like that.

Do you want me to tell some more horror stories? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Your H is right! If you've got insurance that will cover it (are you still covered under H's job?), go for it!

As for the IC... well, maybe he's ... I don't know. When somebody tells me I need a shrink, it doesn't make me feel all warm-and-fuzzy toward them. KWIM?

I was just now eating my dinner (10:45pm). I made a squash cassarole. That's all. I've never made a really good one, so I'm working on it. This one's not bad, but needs a little more cheese and butter. There's a "family" restuarant that I sometimes lunch at that makes a killer squash cassarole - but they don't have it every day and there's no pattern to when they will have it.

W seems to have signed a lease on an apartment and wants me to help her move. I know your H helped you. But, I don't want to do it. I've done that once already when she moved out 4 years ago - we were (sort of) separated for 18 months. I moved everything for her - twice - no, thrice, because I moved her back into our new house 2.5 years ago. This time, I think I'm going to hire somebody to move her. It's just too painful for me to be in the middle of that. I know I should be a "man" (of steel, it seems, LOL), but it just hurts too much.

After she's out of the house, I've got to get it ready for sale - and move all the rest of my stuff over here. Confusing enough?

Well, back to your story. I hope you sleep better tonight - and see this not before morning.

Goodnight,

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Settling in C - 06/29/05 09:43 PM
Hi AD,

Do you want me to tell some more horror stories?
Your H is right! If you've got insurance that will cover it (are you still covered under H's job?), go for it!

Thanks, I guess, for the horror story. But, no, I don't want to hear any more. One was enough!

Yes, I'm still covered under H's plan. He said he won't change it until the end of the year. He told me to MAKE SURE that I use it for a check-up AND IC. I haven't made any appointments yet, though.

Yeah, I know what you mean about someone telling me that I need IC. But I know that I need it, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Squash casserole? I loooooove casseroles. I've never heard of a squash casserole before, though. Is it a southern dish? What's in it - besides squash, of course.

I like to cook, but I haven't been up for cooking for 1... yet. I imagine I can cook and freeze a lot of the leftovers.

When does you W officially move out of your house? I'm assuming July 1. The more I read what you write about your W -- I would say DON'T help her!! I can't believe your W talks to you the way that she does. She sounds worse than my H. Actually, my H seems like a saint next to your W - and my H isn't any saint!

Anyway, I hope you sleep well tonight.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 06/29/05 09:59 PM
Hello SS,

Please tell me why you think you are confused.

I'm confused because H says things over the phone that makes it sound like he really cares. I can't figure him out at all. Does he really care? Does he act like he cares so that he can keep me as a friend, just in case he needs something down the road?? Does he report back to his family how wonderful he is to me? Is he as conflicted as I am, after all? He did seem kind of ... down ... during our conversation on Monday. Maybe it was just my impression, or maybe he was just tired.

What do I do? I haven't called the court in PA at all about postponing the D. At the same time, I've never heard anything from them about a court date, either. It has probably been about 2 months since I filed.

We haven't discussed "us" since he was out here. I don't think I want to bring it up anymore. I think I might leave it up to him now.

Today is H's birthday, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I sent him a birthday e-card this morning. The other day I asked him if he had any plans for his birthday. He said, "no." I don't know if he really doesn't, or he just doesn't want to tell me. All I know is that it didn't sound like he wanted to talk about it. Like I said, he either has no plans and is depressed about it, or has plans and doesn't want to tell me about them.

What happened to that peace that I felt before I moved out here?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Settling in C - 06/29/05 10:33 PM
Quote
I've never heard of a squash casserole before, though. Is it a southern dish? What's in it - besides squash, of course.

SVB,

I didn't know it was a southern dish, but maybe you are right. There are several varieties. I used to make one where the slices of squash remained more or less recognizable. Now, I'm trying to master the kind where the squash and other stuff are more-or-less cooked to a pulp, then baked to a firm-ish consistency. I don't know what's supposed to go in it - because I've never seen a recipe for one like the one at the restraurant.

But the one I made the other night, had squash, onions, green pepper (actually poblano) and mushrooms - all sliced/choppped and cooked to a soft state in a pressure cooker. Then butter, cheese, 3 eggs, 2 slices of bread (toasted and torn up). After a quick run the the pressure cooker (5+ minutes), the vegy's and fungi were drained and mixed with the other stuff, topped with a bit more cheese and mushrooms, then baked for 30 minutes at 375 with the convection mode.

<yum>

But it could still use tweeking.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Life - 06/29/05 11:46 PM
Hi S,
It seems to me that he seemed to always get what he REALLY wanted. If he wanted to be M to you, I believe you would know it. Think back, think about the bike, the SUV, think about how he does things. If he wanted the M, would not it come out in the way he talked, and in his actions?

When you married, was there any doubt then? Didn't you know his feelings, weren't they plain?

I know it keeps coming to your mind, I am sorry for the pain. That peace will come back if you continue to ask for help. I think I'll do a post to you about the nature of life, if you don't mind. I need to think on it some more.

One of the twins asked me about you last night. I told her she could type to you directly, but she declined. People do care about you. She is just bashful. She wanted to know of you were OK, or lonesome. I told her that you were a little, but that you would be OK.

I hope you make friends at work, and that you are setteling in well. It's hard in more ways than one, isn't it.

Have a good evening, what's left of it.

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Hello to C town - 06/30/05 04:14 PM
Quote
by svb:
I'm confused because H says things over the phone that makes it sound like he really cares. I can't figure him out at all. Does he really care? Does he act like he cares so that he can keep me as a friend, just in case he needs something down the road?? Does he report back to his family how wonderful he is to me? Is he as conflicted as I am, after all?

Hi Svb,

I'll tell you my story, fwiw... After many bad years, including (two) trys at MC and a round of anti-d's for H, I decided to D my (ex)H. I finally decided that I would have a bad, unhappy life if I stayed with him. That, even with his good qualities, the bad was very bad, and it wasnt going to change. I'd get fooled... he'd turn on the charm, squelch the rage for a while, and act like a decent human. But then the 'real H' would emerge, and I'd remember all over again how this man was killing me.

So I told him I was D'ing him. He talked me out of it, then about a week later, I told him again, and that I wasnt changing my mind. He moved out, and you know what?? We had a great relationship for awhile! We were friends (with benefits) for the first several months we were seperated. The pressure was off... he didnt try to control me, didnt tell me everything I was doing was wrong... it was nice. I'd go to his apartment, we'd go out... it was simple. It was Simple to be with him. Easy. Simple.

I'm sure he was pretty confused. He never asked if we were heading towards reconcilation, he was just nice. I, otoh, was never conflicted. I DIDNT want to be married to this man. I could hang out, be nice, have fun, and good SF, but this man would never be stable enough for me!

The thing was, I was lonely, I did feel bad for hurting him, he was comfortable to be around, I did hope he was going to be OK, and I didnt totally hate him. And in hindsight, I'm pretty sure I would not do this again. A clean break would have been better, I think.

But, I knew he wasnt meant to be my lifemate. He had a horrible temper, he had obsessive/compulsive disorder, and while he could be a friend, he wasnt ever going to be a good husband.

So he was all nice as pie, till I dated someone. Poof... gone.

Dont try to analyze his actions or motives. He hasnt said anything about his revealing his secret (and I'm thinking it was massage parlours, since the location was so fixed and the times were so flexible), he hasnt said anything about IC for him, fixing the 'years of secrets and emotional abuse', or about resolving the marriage issues. He's just being nice right now. Dont read anything else into it.

He hasnt offered anything real, has he?

Quote
We haven't discussed "us" since he was out here. I don't think I want to bring it up anymore. I think I might leave it up to him now.

See, he's not pushing for anything. He's not asking for you to do anything that leads towards reconciliation. He's trying to get you more equiped to be without him. It's just the opposite of reconciliation.

Quote
What do I do? I haven't called the court in PA at all about postponing the D.

Not much to do except start building your new life. New places to go, new friends, new activities. The man has his issues. Not much we can do about that!

Anyway, I'm just giving you a POV from the other side. Unless he DOES (not says) something very specific, I would not assume anything has changed. And if he does, then YOU get to really think about it for a while. He's got alot of issues, it'd take some serious time to get through it all. I'd be careful, no matter what.

I hope you are getting out and having some fun!! Please take care - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Finding Nemo - 07/05/05 08:15 PM
How are the fish now?

You haven't said lately.

Are the others still picking on Lenny?

I had the beginnings (thoughts) of a long post on my head, but they won't organize themselves into a post and come out of my fingers.

Tell us if quiet is good, or bad. In the past, quiet sometimes meant you were deep in thought, and often they were dark thoughts.

Lets see, holiday weekend, close to family...........parties, mini reunions, big meals, lots of laughter.

Hoping it's the latter.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Finding Nemo - 07/06/05 04:09 AM
Hello SS,

The fish are doing well. They are swimming around right now in a sparkling clean tank. We are having visitors for dinner tomorrow night, and they would have been embarrassed if their tank was dirty - so I cleaned it. My bro and SIL will be visiting me in my apt for the 1st time. My nieces will go swimming again.

The other two fish chase Lenny around on occasion - about once a month or so. Lenny lays eggs all over the tank.......and then they eat them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Not quite like Finding Nemo.

Yes, I have been deep in thought since you and Drucilla have posted last -- with somewhat dark thoughts. I've come here a thousand times meaning to post replies, but I never do. Somehow I can't organize my thoughts into a post, either.

I can't do it now, either. I just wanted to say that I have read your posts and you guys have given me plenty of food for (deep dark) thought for a while.

I'll be back.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Finding Nemo - 07/06/05 04:18 AM
Think about happy things too. Dream dreams, have faith you can find happiness. This is important, this last line. I can't stress it enough.

Don't be afraid to say what you are thinking. Talking might just help.

Here's some more strength and help across the fiber optic lines. Hope it finds you with a smile on your face. Smiling helps, you do know that, don't you? Wink, wink.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Finding Nemo - 07/06/05 05:07 AM
Hi SVB,

It's good to see you again. I've been looking for an update from you. You seem in a bit of a funk - which is absolutely normal. Go easy on yourself. I have found that my energy level has waned quite a lot since I moved - and I only moved back to a house I used to live in for 15 years - not to an entirely different place in a different city. On the positive side, you are really blessed to have your nieces to visit.

Quote
I've come here a thousand times meaning to post replies, but I never do. Somehow I can't organize my thoughts into a post, either.

I often feel the same way. Sometimes I post, only to see at the end that I didn't say what I wanted to say - and don't have the energy to try any further.

Quote
I just wanted to say that I have read your posts and you guys have given me plenty of food for (deep dark) thought for a while.

I'll try to only give food for bright thought from now on. SS always does. Maybe this site/forum is not good for you (or me) right now.

Quote
I'll be back.

We'll be waiting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Finding Nemo - 07/08/05 08:08 PM
SVB,

Your thread is calling to me, but I don't know why. Could you help me out with that?

I am thinking long term plans are too much right now. You may need some short term ones for this to work. Things to get you through the next week, then the next month.

You really can make this work.

I can't think of any good jokes right now, but maybe you can smile a little?

May you have a great weekend. I say it's about time.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Settling in C - 07/09/05 06:20 AM
OK, time to get to business. I'd like to reply to some of your posts.

AD,

Your squash casserole sounds yummy. That's MY kind of food! I have a confession to make, though. ...... (svb takes a deep breath) ..... I don't have a pressure cooker. I know how you feel about pressure cookers.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/09/05 06:38 AM
Hi SS,

It seems to me that he seemed to always get what he REALLY wanted. If he wanted to be M to you, I believe you would know it. Think back, think about the bike, the SUV, think about how he does things. If he wanted the M, would not it come out in the way he talked, and in his actions?

When you married, was there any doubt then? Didn't you know his feelings, weren't they plain?

You are absolutely right. He really doesn't want to be married. You and Drucilla really got me thinking about this.

One of the twins asked me about you last night. I told her she could type to you directly, but she declined. People do care about you. She is just bashful. She wanted to know of you were OK, or lonesome. I told her that you were a little, but that you would be OK.

That's very sweet that she cared enough to remember and ask about me! Hmmm. It seems to me that she's pretty much a chip off the ol' block! Yes, I get lonely and sad, sometimes, but, overall, I think I am ok. It helps to know that people care. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thank you.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/09/05 06:43 AM
Good to see you, SVB!

Actually, I was just thinking about you and wondering how you're doing.

(it's lonely here too)

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/09/05 06:44 AM
Pressure cookers are not neccesary. They just speed things up a bit. A microwave might work just as well - or a plain old "pot". (We don't call 'em saucepan's down here.)

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Hello to C town - 07/09/05 08:12 AM
Drucilla,

Thank you for sharing your story. It has helped me tremendously. Now I understand why you have so much insight about my H.

How long were you married to your ex?

But, I knew he wasnt meant to be my lifemate. He had a horrible temper, he had obsessive/compulsive disorder, and while he could be a friend, he wasnt ever going to be a good husband.

Yes, these are the things that I don't miss!

I don't have to wonder if he's going to be in a good mood or bad mood when he comes home from work -- making sure that everything is "just so" to prevent him from going off when he walked in. Trust me, he always LOOKED for something when he walked in. It wasn't,"Hi! how are you?" that I got when he walked in, it was, "what are these shoes doing here?" Uggh! And that stupid rug next to our front door. Whenever you walked across it, it would creep a little closer to the wall. God FORBID it ever touch the wall! I got yelled at many times for that. Once he yelled at me about it in front of his younger nephew (15 at the time) when they came to visit from Argentina. I still remember the look of shock on his nephew's face. The mail also had to be in its "proper place." That "proper place" always seemed to change from week to week, though. I'd always get it wrong. If I left a magazine "out" too long, or in the wrong place, he'd throw it away.

I understand that we all have our pet peeves, etc., but I think he was pretty extreme.

Even now, in my new apartment, I have flashbacks. Sometimes I fall asleep (on the couch, in my bed, wherever) and then I hear footsteps (from the apartment above). I wake up and want to jump up and act like I'm not sleeping because I think its H walking up to me. I could never lie down or take a nap unless:

1. I was not feeling well.
2. H was lying down or taking a nap, too.
3. H wasn't home.

Can people take naps without fear in normal marriages?
This just doesn't seem to be a way to live.

Dont try to analyze his actions or motives. He hasnt said anything about his revealing his secret (and I'm thinking it was massage parlours, since the location was so fixed and the times were so flexible), he hasnt said anything about IC for him, fixing the 'years of secrets and emotional abuse', or about resolving the marriage issues. He's just being nice right now. Dont read anything else into it.

You're probably right. It's hard not to analyze his actions or motives sometimes, though.

I, otoh, was never conflicted. I DIDNT want to be married to this man.

I wish I could feel this way. That's why I'm curious about how long you were married to him. H and I have a loooong history together. We dated for 4 years, and were(are) married for almost 11. He's all I've ever known. Maybe that's why it's so hard to let go (despite all of the yuckiness listed above).

Maybe you just value yourself more.

(I'm working on it, SS)

See, he's not pushing for anything. He's not asking for you to do anything that leads towards reconciliation. He's trying to get you more equiped to be without him. It's just the opposite of reconciliation.

I think this is what really got to me. HE'S TRYING TO GET YOU MORE EQUIPED TO BE WITHOUT HIM.

That's exactly what he is doing. He really doesn't want to be married to me. It hurts, but it's true.

It makes me think back to a lot of his comments in his conversations this past year.

1. I want to be ALONE.
2. When I am ALONE I'm going out to clubs every weekend.
3. I want to start over -- ALONE.
4. I like working nights because when I come home in the morning I am ALONE all day.

Gee, do you think he wants to be alone?
How many times did I hear him say it last year and yet I STILL didn't get it! Duh!

Of course there was also the other conversation where he told his sis that he would move out to C with me, buy an investment property to fix up, divorce me, buy me out of the property, but then make sure that I was "set up" in my own apartment away from my mother. Even back then he was worried about me being "equipped" to live without him (and my mother).

This is a lot of what I've been thinking during this past week.

There's a lot more, too.

I'm too tired to post about it now, though.

Good night.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/09/05 08:18 AM
Hi AD,

I didn't see your post earlier. I was replying to Drucilla.

I say "pot," too. Small pot, big pot. No saucepans. Afterall, you cook more than just sauce in a saucepan. Saying "saucepan" just confuses me. I think, "saucepan? is that the small pot, the big pot, or the frying pan?"

I hope you are sleeping by now. If not, GO TO SLEEP!
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/09/05 06:57 PM
svb,

It sounds like dru and you are on the same wavelength.

I didn't realize all the abusive things your H did. I'm sure it's a relief to get out of that - and over time, you will feel better and better to be rid of it.

BTW. I went by the house yesterday twice. W moved out on Tuesday. The fish was still there, so I brought it (him/her) home - cleaned the tank this morning.

You haven't said anything about your bro's visit. What is his take on your situation?

How many siblings do you have?

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/10/05 06:43 AM
Hi AD,

I didn't realize all the abusive things your H did. I'm sure it's a relief to get out of that - and over time, you will feel better and better to be rid of it.

It wasn't always bad with H. We had good times, too, and he could be sweet and charming, but I guess that's normal in abusive-type relationships. It was a cycle. He has wonderful qualities, too. I wouldn't have M him otherwise. It's just interesting how everything gradually developed over the years. I had come to accept behaviors as normal that would probably shock most other people. (like getting yelled at about a rug touching a wall --- I did NOT bring that rug to Chicago! He's going to realize now that it wasn't just ME pushing it up against the wall! I must have moved that rug away from the wall a buzillion times, yet the ONE time I didn't catch it -probably after HE walked across it and moved it to the wall - he would say, "Can't you SEE that the rug is touching the wall? etc. etc. etc." GRRRRRR.

ok, take a deep breath svb. Relax. The rug is gone.

-- Warning -- crazy talk ahead ----

As far as abusers go, though, I don't think he was that bad. I've heard a lot worse stories. Somehow I think -- if he cared -- and with counseling -- he could improve.

But still, damage was done. At some level, I don't think I'm good enough, smart enough, etc. I believe that most things are my fault. I apologize ALL of the time for EVERYTHING. I always feel like I have to defend my value as a human being. My C pointed that out to me.

---- end of crazy talk -----

Yes, I am relieved to be away from the behavior. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My counselor told me that she believes that once I get used to living alone I will begin to get control back in my life and I will heal. Eventually, I will NOT put up with that type of behavior again. I hope she's right.

I have a question for you, though. In your threads, you mentioned many times that your W has called you some awful things. She's hit you, too, right? Don't you think she's abusive? Aren't you relieved to be away from that behavior, too?

BTW. I went by the house yesterday twice. W moved out on Tuesday. The fish was still there, so I brought it (him/her) home - cleaned the tank this morning.

A fish? I didn't know that you had a fish! What kind is it? Do you mean to tell me that the poor fish was abandoned since Tuesday? Poor thing.

You haven't said anything about your bro's visit. What is his take on your situation?

Yes, I have one older brother. The visit on Wednesday was great. The girls were happy to come over again and go swimming.

My brother and his family left Chicago this morning to drive back to Kentucky. I went to my mom's this morning to say goodbye to them. They won't be coming back to C again till October. My mom and I will probably drive down there for a visit before then, though.

His take on the whole situation? I believe that he is happy that I am away from H. Aside from the possible infidelity, he just didn't like the way that H treated me. He said THAT alone was enough to leave H. He was the one that encouraged me to read Love Must be Tough ages ago - before I went into plan B. He was very disappointed when I decided to take H back. His attitude at that point was, "you'll always take H back. I'm not going to say anything else."

What does your bro say about your situation?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/10/05 06:20 PM
svb,

I see you were up late again. I'm not sleeping well myself. I just can't make myself go to bed. Or rather, I don't make myself.

Answering your Q's in reverse order, my bro doesn't say anything about my situation. I don't talk to him about it. My brother knows we have separated (again) - and he helped me move some furniture, but he has made no comments at all.

He is a nice guy, but he's rather black and white in his thinking - and can be harshly critical of whoever has gone over from good to bad in his view. I don't want him to hate my wife or disrespect her. He would never say anything disrespectful to her, but he would think badly of her - and my SIL would gossip about my W - so I just don't confide him him. We were never close, although we have a cordial and respectful relationship and live in the same city. After I married and all these problems began, I became more and more distant from everybody including my brother. I want to reverse course on that. Also, my bro's son, my nephew, is a great little guy - 11 years old. Really, he's tremendous! I want to be more of a real uncle to him now.

It sounds like your brother has been concerned about you for years. He's probably right - that your H was treating you badly and was not going to change. It's always hard to care about somebody (his little sister) and not be able to protect them. But, it is your life. I don't think you were wrong to stay in it and try to make it work. You knew when it was time for you to let go.

The fish is a simple goldfish my wife bought a while back. He's getting big - but in a tiny 2 gallon tank. He is the survivor - probably about 2.5 years now. He cost 11 cents at Wal-Mart. There were a few others my wife bought along the way, but they have all died. He's the tough guy. Dirty water? He don't care! No food? He don't care! Crowded tank? He don't care! He never had a name, though. Maybe I should just call him Survivor and leave it at that.

Now for the first question, the serious one - about my W's "abuse" of me...

Well, I don't want people to think she is this crazy constantly violent woman. She definitely is not. She is very sensitive to stress. She could be diagnosed with PTSD due to some horrible childhood experiences. She was born in a war, survived a massacre, spent at least a year in a very poor orphange, was adopted internationally, subjected to abuse from her mother, experienced racial prejudice (because she didn't look like the other kids in her school). Lots of hard things - and I always cut her some slack for that. The violent stuff was mostly in the first year of our marriage - mostly smashing things in the house - dishes, mirrors, the glass in the kitchen cabinet doors, glass in picture frames - her own camera - stuff like that. She settled down after awhile. The physical violence against me was worse in the time just before our first separation (I think, memory fades already, believe it or not).

The first time we were separated, when DD was 6 months old, I missed my baby very very much. It was the most painful experience in my life to miss my child. I didn't miss my wife. It was a relief to get away from the tension and "walking on eggshells".

Quote
But still, damage was done. At some level, I don't think I'm good enough, smart enough, etc. I believe that most things are my fault. I apologize ALL of the time for EVERYTHING.

I went through that as well. She constantly critisized me and complained about everything - and I constantly said "I'm sorry". She even complained about that, believe it or not! LOL. It was difficult for me to avoid saying "I'm sorry" about saying "I'm sorry". Bizzare! But, I realize now that at some point, I passed that phase. I toughened up a bit. Your rug I'm sure was just one symbolic thing out of many things that he complained about to you. I've already forgotten what my W complained about - since it was pretty much everything and everybody.

Oh yes, one thing that really made her livid was if were out somewhere and I didn't go directly from point A to point B. I was not allowed to look around or to change my mind or adapt plans to conditions. Going out to a restraunt was a nightmare. I would come home, she would say "Can we go out somewhere? I would say "OK, where do you want to go?" She would say "I don't know, lets just get ready and go." So, in the car on thw way, I would be asking "If I turn right now, we could go to one of these places (reeling off a list), or if I turn left, one of these." She would then say "What about Olive Garden?" She would ask my opinion and I was too dense to realized that my opinion was not what she wanted. So, I would say "I don't really care for Olive Garden." She would become very angry - scream at me in the car. Then she would say "I never want to go anywhere with you! Take me home." I would say "OK" and start to turn toward home. Then she would say "I don't want to go home. I wanted to go out tonight." Eventually, we would end up somewhere and have a lousy time - or she would appologize profusely and say "I don't know why I get so uptight about things." Yeah, if I ever get through this and am actually D'ed - and start dating. The first whiff of that kind of behaviour from a lady will be the last time she hears from me. LOL. I hate to admit that I actually look forward to dumping somebody for behaving like my W. OHHHH. That's terrible! Isn't it!?

Oh, this is your thread, SVB. I'll not go on. There is both too much and too little to the story. I feel like I've been stuck for 7 years, spinning my wheels while real life went on elsewhere. But this is my real life, unfortunately.

Thanks for asking.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/11/05 04:58 AM
Hi AD,

my bro doesn't say anything about my situation. I don't talk to him about it.

I don't want him to hate my wife or disrespect her. He would never say anything disrespectful to her, but he would think badly of her - and my SIL would gossip about my W - so I just don't confide him him.

I understand what you mean about this. It took me a LONG time to mention to my mother and brother how bad things were in my M. My fear was that I would confide in my family, and then everything would get better between H and me, but by then they would already hate H.

What I didn't realize was how much they already knew. For instance, my brother pointed out a time when we were all driving somewhere together and H made a wrong turn. H then yelled at ME about it (because everything is my fault, of course). In a situation like that, it's pretty obvious to outsiders that something's not quite right. When my brother reminded me of that incident I said, "He did that? I don't remember." See... normal behavior to me.

I'm glad that you plan on getting closer to your family. I think it'll be good for you.

The fish is a simple goldfish my wife bought a while back. He's getting big - but in a tiny 2 gallon tank. He is the survivor - probably about 2.5 years now. He cost 11 cents at Wal-Mart. There were a few others my wife bought along the way, but they have all died. He's the tough guy. Dirty water? He don't care! No food? He don't care! Crowded tank? He don't care! He never had a name, though. Maybe I should just call him Survivor and leave it at that.

That's funny. He must be related somehow to Lenny. Lenny is one tough chick fish. She was 28 cents at Wal-Mart.

I wish I knew she was a girl before I named her. I feel silly calling her Lenny now.

Well, I don't want people to think she is this crazy constantly violent woman.

I don't think she is a crazy constantly violent woman. It seems that she definitely has an issue with temper, though. H was not a crazy constantly violent man, either. He could be sweet and loving and charming, too. I think he had a tough childhood, too. Not nearly as tough as your wife's, though! He lost his older brother (whom he idolized) to leukemia as a child. Then, as if that weren't bad enough, his father more or less (in words and in actions) told H that he wished that H had died instead of his brother. I can't imagine being rejected by a father like that. H went to couseling as a teen/young adult. He KNEW that his father was emotionally abusive. He was told by his C that the chances were that he would be the same way. H doesn't believe that he takes after his father. If he can't admit that there's a problem, there is NO WAY that he will be able to fix it.

I think about H's past and it makes me still feel a little guilty. Maybe, because of this father, he has a bigger fear of being rejected than normal. Maybe he really took it that I rejected HIM by focusing on my career and waiting to have kids. I keep going back to that. On the other hand, though, even if I HAD given up my career and had kids when HE wanted, that STILL might not have been good enough. He'd still have me jumping through hoops, probably.

Yeah, if I ever get through this and am actually D'ed - and start dating. The first whiff of that kind of behaviour from a lady will be the last time she hears from me. LOL. I hate to admit that I actually look forward to dumping somebody for behaving like my W. OHHHH. That's terrible! Isn't it!?

No, I don't think it's so terrible. I kinda feel the same way.

In my case, fear of finding that behavior in someone makes me hesitant to even START a new R. Somehow, chances are that I WILL find someone with those behaviors. Sometimes I think I'll probably be better off being on my own - safer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/11/05 05:08 AM
Hi SVB,

You still up? On a work night?

I'm going to bed - too tired to post - and tomorrow will be a long day.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/11/05 10:09 PM
Here are some more of my thoughts.

It's finally really sinking in that my M is over. H really wants to be on his own.

After spending 15, almost 16 years together, H will no longer be in my life. Unlike many people that post here, we have no children to tie us together for the rest of our lives. He now lives almost a thousand miles away.

It probably wouldn't even be a good idea to remain good friends with him. Why? Every time I see him, or talk to him, it will remind me of how he broke my heart. Not only that, but if we eventually have new people in our lives, I don't think they'd be comfortable with a really chummy ex around.

It's not like I really have to worry about it, anyway. H has already vanished. Like Drucilla said.... POOOFF.

H sent me a short email on 6/30 thanking me for his birthday card. He told me that he talked to his mother and a couple of his sisters on his birthday. He said that they all wished me the very best in everything in the future.

I sent him a pretty long reply on that same day. I haven't heard from him since. Not a phone call, not an email. Poof.

I do miss him, but I don't miss him as much as I used to. It's getting easier. I've been thinking of reasons to either email him or call him, but there are none. I won't. What's the point? He wants to be alone. He doesn't want to be M. I'll leave him alone.

What is difficult, though, is that most everything around me reminds me of him. Most everything that I have was either a gift from him, something we bought together, or reminds me of him in some other way. AD, you mentioned this in your thread, but I've been thinking the exact same thing. If H is no longer to be a part of my life in any way, I'm going to get rid of any traces of him. I'm going to start replacing everything a little at a time - as I can afford it.

OK, those were the rest of my thoughts. It felt good to get them out - finally.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Life - 07/11/05 11:37 PM
This is a good thing to get out.

I would guess that you have ......what's the best word?

That you have been tormented by this for quite a while, and probably it has been worse as you have setteled in to a new job, and new surrondings.

I think the cure is much the same as for many other ills.

It's only the view from where you sit,
that makes you fear defeat.
Life is full of many aisles,
so why don't you change your seat?

Now, having said that, I would like to hear your thoughts about YOU.



Who are you. Or how do you see yourself.
Who (or what) do you look like to the outside world, and then, who do you see when when look in the mirror? Not the blond hair, and blue eyed girl that is taller than average, but tell me about the feelings and emotions of that girl you see.

What are your strengths, and what are your weaknesses? As you see them? As others see them?

I realize these are personal questions -
Lets see if we can find out how you value your self, and what can be done to increase that value in your own mind.

My belief is that you have a lot more going for you than you give yourself credit for. Your mom agrees with me and your dad also, (though it would be hard to get his signature on it.)

Glad Lenny is doing well. You can always change her name -

Jenny comes to mind.

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Life - 07/12/05 12:01 AM
Hi SVB,

I sure hope I havent caused you any additional pain. This all sucks enough! I really hope you turn the corner soon and start feeling better about all this. It will happen, I am very sure.

Reading about your STBexH sure reminds me of mine. We were together one year before we married, married for 7 years, no children (I never wanted children). After dating about 6-8 months, he started pressuring me to marry him. I gave in at year. I was 20.

He also came in the front door - LOOKING for something to complain about. Nothing was ever clean enough, done orderly enough, etc. He'd rage for HOURS about dishes left out on the counter. This from a 20-something young man! I could care less about such things, as he well knew before he married me. He swore he didnt care, just marry him, everything would be alright. Yeah.

I read the book "The Verbally Abusive Spouse" a few years ago (after the D), and mine sure qualified. Walking on eggshells, the 'Cycle' of rage, the apologies... the crazy-making, the passive agressive bs... it was all there, I just didnt realize it was soooo bad, till I got out. I still cant believe I was in THAT kind of relationship for SO LONG. (Just to blow my own horn for a second..) I'm a smart, strong, kick-[censored] kinda gal (see Myers Briggs ENTJ profile.. HARDY and ROBUST!); I'm a VP, I run corporations, and I was living a horrible life! I'm embarassed to think about it now.

At first I thought he pulled a 'bait & switch' on me, as he was pretty sweet to me before we dated. As the years went on, the more obsessive he became. I really decided it was a chemical imbalance, as opposed to him just being a A**hole. Several members of his immediate family were on AD's, and with help from his mother we got him on prozak. He took them for a couple of months then quit. I got him to go to MC with me on two seperate occasions, but he quit after the first session, each time. I really tried to make the marriage work.

I later found out (after the D) that while living near poverty level (in college), he was going to topless bars, stuffing MY money down whores g-strings... I started getting the feeling he really hated women, and over time his actions and words we're convincing me I was right. This man had more problems than I knew about, much like your STBexH. We'll never really know what all his issues are...

But I just gave up. I was tired and had no hope he would mellow out. I wanted out while I still had a chance to meet someone else. I decided this man STOLE my 20's, he wasnt getting my 30's!

YOUR H, otoh, is not leaving because of you, but so that he can perseu some immoral lifestyle. He'd have left any woman he was married to, at this point. It's almost honorable, lol, if he'd been more up-front about it. I mean, he could have strung you out for many more years, had a few kids, wasting your youth before you found out his secret life.

At least you have a chance at a normal relationship now. I'd have a hard time being friends with your exH after the D, too.

Really, I have ever confidence that you will feel MUCH better about all this soon. It wasnt good, you're really not loosing much. He wasnt very sweet or comforting. You'll do better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Please take care of yourself and get out and HAVE SOME FUN!!! - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: Life - 07/12/05 02:53 PM
Dru,
I don't think you could cause her more pain, but I think you are one of her greatest helps. Keep it up, you have wonderful insight.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/13/05 03:25 AM
Drucilla, SS is right, you have not caused me any additional pain. You are helping me -- really.

I have more to say - to the both of you - but I'm too tired right now. It looks like it's going to be an early night for me tonight (that means going to sleep before 11pm). Good night. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Posted By: still seeking Re: Life - 07/13/05 04:34 AM
Hi S,
I worry when I see those 3AM posts. I wonder if it's the loss of relationship, or if it is..............you being down on yourself. Perhaps even the job change, and the location change, but I would guess not.

How is work going, or is it too early to tell?

And, I would still like to know what you see when you look in the mirror.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/15/05 04:13 AM
Drucilla,

As I mentioned before, you are not causing me any additional pain. You are helping me to see REALITY.

Your ex and my stbx sure DO sound similar!

I read the book "The Verbally Abusive Spouse" a few years ago (after the D), and mine sure qualified.

I almost bought that book. I read a description of it on-line and went to look for it at the B&N near my old job. They didn't have it, and I ended up never getting it. I should have just purchased it online the first time I read about it! I still think I might read it. Maybe I should get it now -- it might just open my eyes some more and make me thankful to be away from H.

I started getting the feeling he really hated women, and over time his actions and words we're convincing me I was right. This man had more problems than I knew about, much like your STBexH. We'll never really know what all his issues are...


Hmmmm. It's interesting that you said this. My C told me once that it seemed that my H hated women. But why? I don't get it. He adores his mom and his sisters. But then again, I overheard some disturbing conversations that H had with his 18 year old nephew. It almost seemed as if he were vicariously living through his nephew. H prided himself on giving his nephew boxes of condoms when he visited. And my impression was that it wasn't a "be safe" sort of a gesture. It was more of a "YEAH go out and get some" gesture. Every time he got his nephew on the phone he'd ask about his girlfriend and kind of pry into his sex life. I think H was a little disappointed that his nephew wasn't quite as much of a "go getter" as H apparently was. I heard H bragging to him about how he would go to nightclubs every night Thurs-Sun -- each night in a different town. He said he had a different girlfriend in each town and none of them knew each other. I can still hear him laughing about it. That doesn't sound like he respects women very much, does it. It sounds like he misses those days, doesn't it? I wish I had known all of this a long time ago - like BEFORE I got married.

For the guys --- PLEASE tell me that not all men are/talk like this. OK, I think I know the answer, but please tell me anyway.

Really, I have ever confidence that you will feel MUCH better about all this soon. It wasnt good, you're really not loosing much. He wasnt very sweet or comforting. You'll do better .

Thanks, I hope so.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/15/05 04:41 AM
SS,

I'm going to answer the easy question first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope you don't mind.

How is work going, or is it too early to tell?

I hate to say it, but up to now, I'm a little disappointed. I don't feel like I fit in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I really miss my old co-workers. We were co-workers/friends/family. We would have stressful days, but we would have fun at the same time.

It's sooo different in my new job. The atmoshphere is different. It's so unprofessional. One of my supervisors makes fun of a particular employee in front of EVERYONE. It's shocking to me!

The subject of infidelity came up, too -- more than once.
One co-worker mentioned that a neighbor of hers is cheating on her H. She says the WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD knows about it. The OM runs out of the house just minutes before the H gets home from work. I asked, "hasn't anyone told the H about it? --- even anonymously?" Someone piped in, "If the H is so stupid not to realize what's going on, then he DESERVES to be cheated on!!!" Everyone thought it was a hoot! I was too shocked and choked up to even say anything.

On another occasion, one lady pointed out a single female co-worker to a single male co-worker. Tha male co-worker said, "Nah, she's not my type -- I only like the M type."

Why is infidelity such a joke to some people?

As for the actual work itself --- it's boring. Like Drucilla said, "not to toot my own horn" but I'm capable of a lot more. I'm used to a lot more. I guess that's what I get when I take a big pay cut.

I'm starting to wonder about my decision on taking this job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'll give it more time. It's got to get better, right?

Aren't you sorry you asked now?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/15/05 06:22 AM
Quote
For the guys --- PLEASE tell me that not all men are/talk like this. OK, I think I know the answer, but please tell me anyway.

SVB,

OK. I'm telling you. Not only that, but from my look around - at least amongst the men I see, very few are like that.

Some are completely unlike that.

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/15/05 06:24 AM
SVB,

I'm sorry about your work environment. That stinks. But how's a girl to know beforehand?

I hope it improves, and if it doesn't you are in a big town. There's got to be alternatives.

-AD
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Life - 07/15/05 05:35 PM
Hi SVB,

I hope you are doing well! Maybe you should get that book! That'll get you all riled up! Make you forget about the poop-head in no time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> There is a thread on this book right now on the EN Board. Someone was even giving the book away for free, if you asked...


MB EN Board: The Verbally Abusive Spouse


Quote
by svb:
Hmmmm. It's interesting that you said this. My C told me once that it seemed that my H hated women. But why? I don't get it. He adores his mom and his sisters. But then again, I overheard some disturbing conversations that H had with his 18 year old nephew. ... It was more of a "YEAH go out and get some" gesture. Every time he got his nephew on the phone he'd ask about his girlfriend and kind of pry into his sex life. ... I heard H bragging to him about how he would go to nightclubs every night Thurs-Sun -- each night in a different town. He said he had a different girlfriend in each town and none of them knew each other. I can still hear him laughing about it. That doesn't sound like he respects women very much, does it?

After a few years married, I started getting a real 'men' against 'woman' feeling from my H. Like it was a war, and he needed to 'win'. His team vs. my team?

I asked him why he didnt pick a milder woman, one more easily controlled. Seemed he picked the hardest-headed women he could find then tried to break her. That's in the book, too.. some pick easy targets, some pick tuff nuts. I'm a tuff nut (been called worse!). I was raised in a very abusive household, parents screaming at the top of their lungs all the time... and I SWORE I wouldnt live in a house like that again. And there I was. I couldnt give in, so we'd just fight and fight. I was so stupid. I wish I'd gotten out sooner.

He thought his mother and sister were stupid twits (unfortunately, his mom wasnt too far off... she didnt give him many chances to think otherwise). I know he didnt respect his mother at all. He really seemed to think that women had their place, and anyone woman trying for different just had a chip on their shoulder about men and was trying to prove something. LOL. What a loser. OK, I gotta stop on the ExH... gonna funk me out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />.

I'm sorry you havent settled into your new job just yet. It takes time, and if you want to, you can start looking for something else in the mean time. Takes the pressure off when you already have a job. It also makes you feel better about the one you have knowing you an exit plan. You've been through so much, it's all just going to be odd for a while. Try to take it easy and give yourself time to adjust.

Are you getting out and having some fun on the weekends? Hanging out with your niece or new friends? Have you found the coolest pub in town yet? Found the cool coffee houses and used book stores? That's the first things I do when I hit a new town. I hope you are getting out! Have some fun this weekend, OK? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Take care - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: Life - 07/20/05 08:03 PM
Dru,
You do such a good job.

S,
I am not sorry I asked.

I don't think I would stay there very long. It would drag me down. I seek out people to work with that will help me improve myself. LOL, I need all the help I can get.

If it was mostly good, with just a little bad here and there, maybe I could make it work, but what you describe sounds depressing.

For the guys --- PLEASE tell me that not all men are/talk like this. OK, I think I know the answer, but please tell me anyway.

NO, NO, NO, NO !!!

Somewhere, out there, someones saying a prayer. That You'll find one another.............

I think about you, alone in your apartment. I see you talk to Lenny and friends, but they don't answer back, except in your mind.

I hear you wonder about things. I see you doubt.

My wish for you is that you will be able to change the direction of your thoughts. From doubts, to planning a happy future.

I don't mean to minimize your loss. I grieve for what could have been for you. It's just that...........that you have so much going for you, too much to let this stop your progress.

Lets say you woke up this morning feeling different. Lets say you shook off the doubt, and had a feeling that good was just around the corner.

What would you imagine some of that good would be?
What would it look like to you?
(OK your salary would double, but I mean, what after that?)

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Life - 07/20/05 09:04 PM
SS you are very sweet to say such things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. You do so much good around here, I often feel bad that I cant keep up with more people. Something about Svb's situation that just kept running around in my mind. Guess just too many similarites to my own history (and that's a shame).

SVB, start looking for another job! That will give you something to do, more places to go, more people to meet, and, in a perfect world, maybe even a better job <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I LOVE the feeling of hunting down a better job while having another. Puts a little spring in my step... my little secret, then: ZING... "So long, [censored]!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> It's incredibly satisfying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Some people just dont deserve my employment, you know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Have a fun day - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/22/05 11:51 PM
An update --

STBXH and I have been e-mailing each other a little.

He told me that he applied for a higher level position at another facility in his area.

He is also wondering if I could send him copies of our vacation photos.

None of this tells me that he has thoughts of reconciling on his mind.

I did a bad thing, too. I don't know why I did it, but I looked in his e-mail account. I still have his password (he has no clue that I know it). He had e-mails to and from his family.

There was one e-mail to a fellow that I didn't recognize. H forwarded a letter to this guy for proof reading. (that was my old job) It seems that H has some serious issues at work. The letter was a formal complaint against his boss. Not only that, but he's already tranferring to another store. See, a totally different story from what he told ME.

Like I said, I don't know why I even looked. It shouldn't matter to me anymore what H does in his life. I suppose what I found just proves to me that H will never change. I haven't really BEEN in his life for the past 1 - 2 years (or more), and I guess I never will.

It's tougher moving on than I thought. Why can't I let go?

These issues that H is having with his boss is nothing new. He's had many issues with co-workers and bosses. He's a very hard worker, but somehow, he always gets the impression that everyone is out to get him. To him, everyone else is lazy, and they are jealous of him, so they try to ruin his career. I read somewhere that this is common in abusive type people.

Oh well, it's not my problem anymore.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/23/05 12:18 AM
OK. I'm telling you. Not only that, but from my look around - at least amongst the men I see, very few are like that.

Some are completely unlike that.

Thanks for the feedback, AD. That's what I thought. I just needed to hear it, though.

I'm still wondering if I would just be better off alone.

Drucilla,

I asked him why he didnt pick a milder woman, one more easily controlled.

That, unfortunately, is me. I really should go get that book.

I'm sorry you havent settled into your new job just yet. It takes time, and if you want to, you can start looking for something else in the mean time. Takes the pressure off when you already have a job. It also makes you feel better about the one you have knowing you an exit plan. You've been through so much, it's all just going to be odd for a while. Try to take it easy and give yourself time to adjust.

I might give myself a year. I basically took this job as a foot in the door. I have good benefits, and after a year, I can apply for a higher level position. I might even have the opportunity to go overseas for a little while. I could possibly stick it out a little while longer for that. Only 10.5 months to go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Are you getting out and having some fun on the weekends? Hanging out with your niece or new friends? Have you found the coolest pub in town yet? Found the cool coffee houses and used book stores? That's the first things I do when I hit a new town. I hope you are getting out! Have some fun this weekend, OK?

I'm trying. I actually went to look at townhouses this past weekend. I'm probably jumping the gun a little on that, but I couldn't help myself. I went to a baseball game on Monday night.

It feels that I have to push myself a little to go out, but I'm trying.

SS,

Thank you for your feedback, too.

Lets say you woke up this morning feeling different. Lets say you shook off the doubt, and had a feeling that good was just around the corner.

What would you imagine some of that good would be?
What would it look like to you?

I'm feeling a little negative today, so I think I'd better answer that one tomorrow. I know what I want to say, but I don't think I'd do it very well today. I've had to go back and change my wording a thousand times today. I had to tone down the negativity. Trust me, I have my more positive moments! I'll try to come back then.

Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/23/05 04:09 AM
SVB,

Just saying "Hi".

About your H's lie:
Hmmm. Your H is having trouble at work and lies to you about it. What does it mean? On the positive side, he doesn't want to look bad in your eyes. Why does it still matter to him? I don't know. Habit maybe. Do you still depend on him financially? I would guess not. Some guys think they have to protect their women from any trouble they might run into. I don't know if that is it. My wife was/is rather insecure about my work. I could never discuss work problems with her. I didn't lie to her about it, but I just didn't discuss it with her. If she asked questions, I answered truthfully. Once I was "on notice" to make a deadline or lose my job. I didn't tell her. I made the deadline.

Probably this is just a plain ol' self-protection lie. He probably tells his family something similar - or as they are farther removed from the situation, he can tell them even more amazing stories.

What do you think? Should I have told my wife during the time I was "on notice"?

Feeling Down and etc.
SVB,

You just moved so maybe this doesn't fit your situation. Sometimes, I get stuck in a rut. Then, just making some seemingly insignificant change helps. Just driving home a different way makes me feel better.

Also, I always feel better in the morning than at night (unless I am dreading something in the morning).

Surviving makes me feel better! Go ride a roller-coaster - or one of those tower rides that shoots you up about 200 feet then drops you down again. Yes indeed! It is nice to survive! Whitewater rafting might be just the ticket. After 2 or 3 hours of fear, mildly sunburned, wet, half-drowned, sweaty, with blisters on your rowing hands and sore shoulders, you will be happy, I guarantee! Hmmm. I've got to get myself up to Ocoee with some group or another before the summer is over.

I'm not suggesting using adreneline as a drug. But problems tend to look smaller from a different perspective. A prudently chosen, intense experience can change the perspective.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/25/05 03:24 AM
Hi AD,

What do you think? Should I have told my wife during the time I was "on notice"?

I can understand the reason you didn't tell your wife. In a perfect world and in a perfect marriage, though, I think you shouldn't have to fear telling your wife anything. Wouldn't it have been nice if you had told her and she said that she wasn't worried because she had faith in you that you would get the job done? And if not, that she knows that you would bend over backwards to find a way to support your family? And that she would support you and pitch in any way that she can? I don't know - something along those lines.

I would want my H to open up his soul to me - which he didn't do - at least towards the end.

Unfortunately, we're not living in a perfect world.

As an update ---

I talked to my H today - for almost 2 hours. I broke down (I guess I'm really missing him) and I tried to call him yesterday. I called the wrong number (I couldn't remember it) so I sent him an email. He called me today.

I got some clarification on his job situation. (I didn't ask) He was offered the promotion at the other location. He was asked to start immediately, but his boss found out about it and flipped out. He came to H's apartment, banging on the door and screaming that he needed to talk to him. H didn't open the door. His boss continued to bang the door and yell, saying things like, "if you don't show up for work tomorrow, start looking for another job."

Well, H's superiors (above his boss) straightened out the situation. H starts his new job in a week, and his boss had to formally apologize to him.

H told me his news about the promotion and I said that I was happy for him. I am happy for him. He was due a promotion for a long time. This is the promotion he wanted to get before starting a family - back in the day. So I told him that I was happy for him and then I started to cry. DRATS! I couldn't control myself. This job is on the other side of town, so he's going to find an apartment close by. I apologized for crying - told him that I didn't mean to cry. He said, "that's ok." I said, "I can't help it because I guess this means we're really though - it's so final." I said that I wanted to be married forever. He asked," don't you think this is hard for me, too?" I said, "no, you're the one that wants to be free and single and start over again." I guess I should have just said, "is it?"

At one point, I asked him, "this is really it, isn't it?" He didn't say anything. There was dead silence on the phone for about 2 minutes. Finally, I just said, "forget it."

I really wanted him to say that he missed me and that we are making a big mistake. It never happened. It'll never happen. I'd probably take him back in a second if he said it - despite his crappy behavior in the past.

I'm sure that boo hoo-ing in front of him made me really attractive. I'm sure he's thanking his lucky stars to be away from someone so clingy and needy.

Well, after that ugly bit of convesation, I changed the subject. I started to ask him some more about his promotion and his other plans. We talked for at least another half an hour after that. He had plenty of advice on what kind of townhouse I should buy. We laughed about some things, too.

Uggggghhh. I'm never going to get over him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Tonight is rough.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/25/05 05:26 AM
SVB,

I stopped by and read your thread, but it's too late for me to try to come up with anything useful to say.

"I'm sorry you're having a hard time", doesn't seem enough.

Sorry,

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/26/05 04:49 AM
Hi AD,

Thanks for reading and for your support.

Surviving makes me feel better! Go ride a roller-coaster - or one of those tower rides that shoots you up about 200 feet then drops you down again. Yes indeed! It is nice to survive! Whitewater rafting might be just the ticket. After 2 or 3 hours of fear, mildly sunburned, wet, half-drowned, sweaty, with blisters on your rowing hands and sore shoulders, you will be happy, I guarantee! Hmmm. I've got to get myself up to Ocoee with some group or another before the summer is over.

It's funny you should mention roller coasters. Guess what I'll be doing this weekend? hee hee I've had this planned for a couple of weeks already. I really hope that it helps to get me out of this serious funk that I've been in for the past few days. I just read StormyDakota's thread on the divorcing board. It got me bawling. I could have written what she posted word for word (except for the children part). ugggh so much pain everywhere.

As for the whitewater rafting, when I used to live in Colorado, I went whitewater rafting once when my best friend came out to visit. (H was with us,too)
I had a blast. I think our trip was mild, though, compared to what you described. Nevertheless, my friend fell out of the raft. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> She was OK, though.
I don't think there's any whitewater rafting around here. My friend wouldn't go with me even if there were. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

OK, time to go to sleep. I hope you get a good night's rest tonight.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Life - 07/26/05 05:32 AM
SVB,

Where is SS when you need him? I think he was going on vacation. Otherwise, he would be here with some wisdom.

I'm still not able to respond to your post about your H's work.

I'll try a bit.

There are so many plans that we lay down - to plot a path for ourselves and our families through life. There are so many things which are stepping stones on our envisioned path - and when we no longer believe that the vision we had can become a reality, each one of those stepping stones now looks painfully futile.

That's why I don't sleep at the other house - even though W has moved out - and there is a bed there - and it is closer to my work - and I need to do a lot of cleanup there. Every thing I see there, every object, every piece of trash, every mark on a wall or floor or carpet, every room - is filled with the broken dreams. I can't sleep there.

So, your H's promotion (if it is real) is painful because it is as if he continues to lay down stones on the path you hoped to walk together, but now he walks it alone - and you are on your own lonely path. I don't know any cure for it. We just have to go through it. Eventually, since you don't have kids together, you can put him and his life-steps out of your sight - and perhaps out of your mind. Maybe it's better to experience the pain now rather than bury it, but I don't know.

Meanwhile, my w continues to stir me up with that little phrase she drops in now and then : "if we don't divorce...". I heard a lot of that yesterday, and as a consequence, didn't sleep well.

HAVE FUN WITH THE COASTERS!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Life - 07/28/05 03:40 AM
Hi AD,

You're exactly right in what you wrote. H and I are on different stone paths. We are both laying down stones and the paths are slowly turning and will eventually be going in completely opposite directions.

I can relate to what you say about your house being filled with broken dreams. Broken dreams. That's the perfect way to word it. I've had to bring many reminders of broken dreams with me. I can't wait to get rid of all of them.
Unfortunately, I can't plan to purchase a townhouse, get ALL new furniture AND a new car in the next year or two.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Meanwhile, my w continues to stir me up with that little phrase she drops in now and then : "if we don't divorce...". I heard a lot of that yesterday, and as a consequence, didn't sleep well.

I have to admit. I'm jealous. I only wish that my H would give me ANY sign that he were having doubts.
Posted By: svb1 I'm having serious doubts - 07/28/05 04:08 AM
I having serious doubts again.

I don't want to be divorced.

I go to work every day and I deal with so many young couples. They have recently started new lives together and are full of hope and happiness about the future - together.
They're everywhere. They've either just moved to the area, or they've just had a baby, or they're expecting a baby -- or whatever. And then I think, "what happened to us?" I feel old and used and unwanted. I want to go back to the time when WE were recently married and ready to take on the world.

Before I moved out here, I couldn't cry. I think now that it might have been the ADs I was taking. I've been off them for a while now. Now I cry at the drop of a hat. (H liked the way I looked in hats - see I complain about him, but I guess he has given me compliments in the past) Thankfully, I haven't cried at work yet. It's not easy, though. Because I still wear my wedding ring, many people ask me about my H at work. I am starting to regret the decision that I made to keep wearing my ring until I'm officially D'd.

I suppose this is the pain that I need to go through to heal. How long does this last?

How bad would it be to call H and tell him that I don't want a divorce anymore - that we're making a big mistake? I want to ask him if he's having doubts, too, and if he misses me.

I actually called him tonight. Thankfully he didn't answer the phone.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm having serious doubts - 07/28/05 04:37 AM
Well, SVB, I will not say that it would be "wrong" for you to try again to save your marriage. From what you have written of him, I really don't have much idea of what's going through your H's mind.


Quote
I only wish that my H would give me ANY sign that he were having doubts.

Be careful what you wish for.

You are still young, SVB. But, if you spend another 5 years trying to reel in your H - and reform him to treat you better... Maybe it wouldn't take that long, but I have no idea. I don't really get much feel for him from what you have written about him. You don't even know for sure if he is having an A.

The "yes", "no", "maybe", "no", "yes", "maybe", "maybe", "no", "no", "no", "maybe", "yes" cycle is exhausting.

I've been on that roller-coaster so long that I thought I was glad to be getting off of it. (notice the uncertainty).

I was the one who moved out - at least this time around. I just could not live with her lies and sneaking visits to OM. (GPS really opened my eyes.) She certainly is not telling me that she wants him. She gives few signs of any plan to marry him - or any rush to D right now. He is single - and has been persuing her for our entire marriage.

Recently she has suggested that "if we stay married" we should move to another city. I reply that this is a big commitment for me, because I have family here - and was born here - and really don't mind living here. I would have to sell two houses and etc. Then, we would be in a completely different court environment for divorce (in the other state). We already have everything agreed upon here. If we divorced there, I would not be able to return here because she would refuse to move and it is way too far for me to go for regular child visitation. So, it's a big risk for me. I tell her "OM has a car. He came 7000 miles once to get near you. He will follow us." She replies "If I move to another city with you, he will get the message that I don't want him and will give up."

Sorry to prattle on your thread. I'll go post on mine.

Oh, but one last thing. I *said* I was going to get rid of stuff with memories attached, but I haven't done it yet. I even picked up the wedding albumn from the other house. I was going to save it for DD, but I don't know what to do with it for now. Worse, on the way home from Atlanta last week with my new citizen - we stopped at a scenic place and I took some pictures. One of them is now the background image on my computer desktop. So, I'm constantly reminded of what I'm losing.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 I'm no longer having doubts - 08/01/05 05:58 AM
ok, my doubting phase is over. (for now anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I spoke with STBXH on Thursday night. I asked him if he ever has doubts. He said, "I think that's normal." I told him that I was having doubts. I asked him if he still wants to get a D, He said "kinda." There was a lot more to the conversation, but that was the jist of it.

Now I am angry. I am angry at myself for ever doubting. I am angry at myself for calling him. I am angry at HIM.

But that's not the worst of it.

H is in Miami right now. When I spoke with him on Thursday, he told me that his friend (and new wife) in Miami bought him a ticket to visit them. He left Friday afternoon and will be there till Wednesday. He starts his new job on Thursday.

I checked stbx's email. His friend didn't buy him a ticket. He bought it himself. I guess he must have decided it would be fun to go to Miami to celebrate with his friend before he starts his new job. I'm sure he's checking out the chicas on the beach during the day and going out to clubs at night. Gee, I wonder if he's still wearing his wedding ring, like I am?

I am such an idiot.

But why lie to me about the ticket? I think because if he told me that HE bought the ticket to go to FLA, I would be offended that he didn't come to visit me instead. Ok, this is just what I think. I have NO idea what goes through H's head. All I know is that he lied.

I am back to thinking that he is pure evil.

What I have decided is that I don't need to be in contact with him at all. Ever. It just brings on too much grief for me.

When it's time for me to go to D court in PA, I'm not even going to let him know I'm in the area. When I have the paperwork, I'll just Fed Ex his copies.

I'm done.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm no longer having doubts - 08/01/05 07:19 AM
SVB,

I also don't know why he bothers to lie at this point.

But, "pure evil?", I doubt it. Just an ordinary, selfish, conflict avoiding WS.

He "kinda" want's a D?!? I think his reply means "yes" - but with a conflict avoider twist. Yuck! Makes 'ya kinda wanna puke.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Question - 08/02/05 10:16 PM
Hi AD,

He "kinda" want's a D?!? I think his reply means "yes" - but with a conflict avoider twist. Yuck! Makes 'ya kinda wanna puke.

Yeah, when he said that I said, "ok, I guess I'll take that as a YES, without you having to actually say YES." To that, he didn't say anything.

Now I have a question.....

I got an e-mail b-day card from H's closest sister and niece. (the ones he always confided in) But it's also the SIL I felt closest to.

How am I supposed to respond to it? Or do I respond at all?

OK, now you know another reason why I've been extra depressed lately.

I am officially 36 now. (b-day was yesterday)

I got a card in the mail from STBX, though. He must have put it in the mail before he left to go party in Miami. Boy, I feel so special. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/02/05 10:20 PM
Hi SVB,

Read your posts, just got back from vacation last night. You give me a lot to think about.

How was work today?
How are you tonight (as compared to when you did those last few posts?)

SS
Posted By: TreeReich* Re: Question - 08/02/05 10:20 PM
svb1..All I can say is at least you got a card. I just got ignored as if I don't exist. It amazes me how the WS can just forget a whole block of their life.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/02/05 10:50 PM
SS, I knew you were on vacation. I wasn't sure when you were coming back. I hope you had a great time.

The day just draaagggged at work today. I couldn't wait to get out of there. Why? So I could come back home to crawl back into my hole, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I still feel the same as I've felt all week ... bummed.

Sorry, I still haven't answered your question about what I'd do if there were no more doubt. I'm still thinking about it, though.

TreeReich, I'm sorry you didn't get a b-day card. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> To be honest, when I heard that H was going to be going to Miami, I didn't think I'd get one, either. I was truly surprised to receive one.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/02/05 11:05 PM
Was afraid you would say work was a d r a g.

I recommend............some of those same things I recommended you do while H was gone last winter. If what your dad said (about what kind of cookie you are) is true - and it is, you SHOULD be able to figure out how to get beyond this stage.

I am sorry, but I still worry about you. You are worth it, do you know that yet?

When do you get vacation days? Is there a waiting period, or do they accumilate?

How is Lenny?

I have lots of questions, but no time. Mostly about how you are. Have to go, still at work, under deadline. (made worse by not giving it my full attention.)

You really are worth it.

Priceless -

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/03/05 05:30 PM
Happy B-Day SVB!

He's got secrets. Still has secrets. I understand how you wouldnt want to be D'd, but being married to THAT man wasnt the way to go, either.

Dont respond at all to the card.

Maybe he's worried that you would have been upset about him spending $ on the ticket? Maybe he's got other things lined up in Miami? His story makes the trip very innocent. Any other story would have drawn questions. Secrets. You dont want a man with this many secrets.

WHY are you checking his email? You gotta let go, girl. THIS ISNT THE MAN YOU'RE LOOKING FOR...(droid.. whatever). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope you have a good day today - G
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/03/05 11:32 PM
Hi SS,

I hope work is going well for you.

I recommend............some of those same things I recommended you do while H was gone last winter. If what your dad said (about what kind of cookie you are) is true - and it is, you SHOULD be able to figure out how to get beyond this stage.

I remember what you are talking about. You made a list. You have given me a project now. I have to go back through this thread and find your list. I think I remember some of them anyway.

I know I need to keep busy. Sometimes I just don't have the energy, though. Even when I'm out, sometimes I want to be back at home... to wallow.

I imagine through time it will get better.

Amazingly enough, emotionally, I feel better today. (despite battling a migraine!)

As for work, my vacation days accumulate. I have to save my days for now, though, because I am expecting to have to go back to PA sometime in the next month or two for D court.
I will definitely need them then.

As for Lenny.. I wonder about her.

She has stopped growing. When I brought home her two friends, they were both smaller than her. Now they are both BIGGER than she is. One is practically twice her size.
What makes a goldfish stop growing?

Yes, these are the things I think about when I'm not thinking about you know who. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/03/05 11:42 PM
Hello Drucilla,

Thanks for checking in.

Yes the man STILL has secrets. Isn't it amazing?

I do need to let go.

You know what's interesting? When I talked to H about his trip to Miami, he was telling me about his friend and friend's new wife. Apparently, the new wife doesn't even know his friend's REAL age!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> How can you not tell your girlfiend/wife your actual age? My STBX told me that he was shocked at this information. H's friend apparently also believes that secrets and lies are OK in a marriage. Geez if you are going to lie about your age, what else will you lie about?? I'm shocked that my stbx was even shocked. If anything, he would UNDERSTAND. I should've asked H if he gave his friend a lecture about keeping lies and secrets in a M. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head?

I am having a better day today. I hope you have a good day, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question - 08/04/05 12:35 AM
Howdy, svb! I just wanted to stop in and say hey and how wonderful I think you are doing. I know this is all so hard for you, but you are being so brave and strong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I love that ss is talking to you; isn't he just such a wonderful, soothing man?

Your fan,

Mel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/04/05 05:06 AM
Oops!

And a belated "Happy Birthday", from me too!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/04/05 11:52 PM
MelodyLane! Thank you. It means a lot to me that you think so. I don't feel brave and strong most of the time, though.

I thought you were upset w/me because I blew plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I often wonder how things would have turned out if I hadn't blown plan B. Who knows, maybe I'd be in the same place that I am now!

And yes, SS is a wonderful man. I can't say enough about him. I think the feeling is mutual all over this board, from what I read.

AD, thank you, too.

I am beginning to think that you are a vampire, though. Granted, I did read your post at 2am, but I am not a vampire because I also post in the daylight.
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/05/05 12:02 AM
Quote
I should've asked H if he gave his friend a lecture about keeping lies and secrets in a M. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head?

Na, more like banging your head on the table... let's not and say you did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My name always comes out Drucilla when you type it... are making fun of screen name? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Things are looking better for me these days. I guess it's just a long, hard road no matter which path you end up on. I havent changed my profile... I hit 37 this year <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Enjoy 36 while you can <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/05/05 12:03 AM
SVB,
I need your help. Tonight, or tomorrow, I'll come back and ask a favor.

Hope you are doing better today.

Tell me, what did you do for your birthday? Was it a happy day, or a sad day? Mixed?

You haven't mentioned your friend for a while. Did you give up on her?

I ask lots of questions....... is there anything you want to talk about?

SS
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question - 08/05/05 12:49 AM
Quote
I thought you were upset w/me because I blew plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I often wonder how things would have turned out if I hadn't blown plan B. Who knows, maybe in the same place that I am now!

OHMIGOSH, I was never mad at you at all! I think what happened was supposed to happen and even though your marriage didn't work out, it has ended in the best possible way for you. I think having him around for awhile longer gave you a chance to peacefully accept that it wouldn't work.

What a long hard road you have had. I hope and pray the worst is over, because you really deserve some happiness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/05/05 02:42 AM
Drucilla,

My name always comes out Drucilla when you type it... are making fun of screen name?

That's right, that's a Buffy name isn't it? I didn't think about it. No, I'm not making fun of your name. You have a cool name. Everybody has a cool name but me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you're doing better these days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SS,

I need your help. Tonight, or tomorrow, I'll come back and ask a favor.

I'll be here. You've got me wondering now.

Hope you are doing better today.

Well, I was doing ok today until I got home from work and found an invitation to a wedding shower in my mailbox. !! I got into bed and cried for about 15 minutes. Then I got out of bed to sign into MB. I found the post about deep dish pizza in Chicago and BAM! the wedding shower invitation was forgotten. See, all you need to do is mention FOOD to me and I will be ok. I am easily distracted like a 3 year old.

Tell me, what did you do for your birthday? Was it a happy day, or a sad day? Mixed?

Well, I celebrated my b-day over the weekend. Friday and Saturday I went to Six Flags with my friend. I spent Sunday with my mom. She took me to see, “Must Love Dogs” and out to dinner.
Friday and Saturday were… stressful. (long story) Sunday with my mom was nice.

Monday, my actual b-day, was nothing special. I went to work, came home, and then went to sleep at around 7pm –- like a true old fogey. I guess you could call it a mixed day.

MelodyLane,

I’m glad you weren’t upset with me. I guess I’m just a little too sensitive.

What a long hard road you have had. I hope and pray the worst is over, because you really deserve some happiness.

Thanks. I hope the worst is over, too. Now I am just waiting for my heart to grow bigger (if what they say in “Must Love Dogs” is right)

Oh, and guess what I did today? I flushed a spider down the toilet. Now THAT’s what I call being brave and strong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/05/05 04:59 AM
SVB,

There's a lady on MB named "SpiderSlayer" already! I think that's how she get her name. The first time after her H left that she had to deal with a spider herself, she did it and it made her feel powerful.

No, not a vampire. Just don't sleep well, and I'm trying not to get on MB when I'm at work. I've manage to do that for almost 3 weeks now, but now I'm shopping ebay while I'm supposed to be working. Not good.

Hmmmm. I'm guessing the 'coasters didn't work out. Just let me know when you're ready to talk about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/05/05 04:53 PM
Hi S,
I need your help.

Let me give you a little background I'll tell you what I need from you.

I regularly visit an on line forum called Marriage Builders.
It is a place people go for help and support when they are having troubles in their marriages and they want to save the marriage.

Some months ago, I met a girl (then living in the eastern US) that was having problems with her H. He had a problem telling the truth about where he would go, and what he would do. She never did get the truth out of him, and ended up filing for D, and moving back near where she grew up.

For the purposes of the discussion, lets call her SVB1.

SVB1 is struggling. I'm going to tell you more about her, and what she is going through. As you read, think about what she needs, and how to explain it to her - I struggle with this part of it, and need your thoughts and suggestions.

SVB1 is a smart girl. Her dad often told her "you are one smart cookie." I can see from the way she writes that she has gotten a good education. I would bet that she did well in school, though she has never really said. She studied (or traveled) abroad in south America, which is where she met her future H. She speaks two languages fluently, and was doing well in the job market when these marriage troubles started. In the marriage, she was the one that took care of the day to day things. That is, she did all the bill paying, the phone calls to schedule appointments, and all the many things that it takes to run a home. This, in spite of working full time just like her H.

I am trying to paint a picture of how smart she is, and how hard working and how "on the ball" she is. It's important for later. I think you get the idea - this is no slacker, this is a wonderful person caught in a bad situation. Though I am sure she has a few faults (since we all do) she never deserved to have this happen to her.

She worked for over a year to save her marriage, but her H was never truthful. He would be gone for a half a day or longer, and then claim he was having lunch with a co-worker, and he came up with many silly stories, but never told the truth. There were condoms missing but he claimed she was crazy for wondering about it. As we (those who wrote to her on MB) talked to her, more of the story unfolded. He had been verbally, and emotionally abusive to her for years. She was going to IC for a while, and the IC often pointed out to her how the abuse had shaped her thoughts, and her actions.

Slowly, her H had drained away her self esteem. This wonderful person, this smart, hard working girl, now wondered if this was her fault, if she had caused the problems. She agonized over what to do, she prayed, she thought, she laid awake when she should have been sleeping.......... thinking about what she should do.

Imagine how she must feel. Marriage is a sacred thing - yet hers is almost over. Her dreams shattered, her life changed so drastically, she is far away from her life of the last ten years. Different home, different job. She is lonely, no evening conversation, no one to sit with, and talk to. She has doubts now, she wonders if she will ever be happy, if she will be alone.

I think you get the idea.

Now, my problem.

How do we get this girl to see how good she really is? How can we help her see that she can be happy again?

We could list her accomplishments - and she, seeing the list should see how good she really is, but the problem is emotional, and I am afraid this won't be nearly enough.

How do you get someone who has been hurt this much, to see a future?
How do you get them to have faith again?
How can we show her that the clouds are temporary, that the sun will come again, and flood her world with light?

You are a smart girl. I need your help. Perhaps if you could talk to her and make some suggestions for her. I think she needs to make a change in side herself. From thinking about her few mistakes, to thinking about her many successes. I think she needs to get outside the darkness, back into the light. Can you suggest to her how she might go about doing this? Perhaps if you could talk to her, and see how she spends her time, you might be able to suggest to her some things that would take her focus from where it is, to where it needs to be?

Will you talk to her tonight? Will you see if you can find out why such a wonderful person isn't excited about her future?

Please help me. SVB1 is very important to me. I think with a few small changes, she will be on her way to much happiness. Talk to her, and come back and let us know why she is so afraid. Let us know what she is thinking, and feeling.

Please do this as a special favor to me, I think she is worth it.
In fact, I know she is worth it. I just wish SHE knew it.

Thanks in advance. Let us know what you find out. I'll be waiting to hear how it goes. Please don't wait to long to talk to her.

Sincerely,
SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/05/05 10:08 PM
Yuck, I had a bad Spider day, today... Dozens had been living in a tree/bush near my car, webbing it up, crawling into the seats... I'd had enough! I started spraying, and MORE started falling from the trees, onto my HEAD! I SCREAMED (it was 6:30am!)

Bet I got dozens! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> 'Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out!'.

Yeah, it's Dru from Buffy. She's so wicked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/05/05 10:09 PM
Quote
Please do this as a special favor to me, I think she is worth it.
In fact, I know she is worth it. I just wish SHE knew it.

Thanks in advance. Let us know what you find out. I'll be waiting to hear how it goes. Please don't wait to long to talk to her.

Sincerely,
SS

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/05/05 10:16 PM
Dru,
You crack me up.

Thanks.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/05/05 10:34 PM
Hi SS,

Wow, that was some post. Thanks.

It seems as if that SVB1 chick really needs a kick in the pants. I'll have that talk with her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to make her write some things down.

Dru,

You crack me up, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

svb
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/05/05 10:52 PM
"A daring daytime post from SVB... Honoring us with a visit between parties..."

Have a fun weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - D
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/05/05 11:31 PM
Hi AD,

See, SpiderSlayer is a cool name, too.

Are you spending as much time on e-bay as you did on MB? My guess would be no.

I don't have the problem of spending too much time on the Internet at work anymore. I no longer have an office to myself (or almost to myself, anyway). I don't even have a cubicle. I have a desk in a big room with about 6 other people. Sigh.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/05/05 11:36 PM
Honoring us with a visit between parties

Well I don't know about THAT! I think I'm a LONG way from that many parties.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything exciting planned for this weekend. Except that I have to figure out how to get a license plate on the front of my car. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I hope you have fun, too. Something tells me that you probably will. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/06/05 06:52 AM
Quote
Hi AD,

Hi back, SVB!

Quote
Are you spending as much time on e-bay as you did on MB? My guess would be no.

I'm not sure if you guessed correctly or not. E*bay is like a museum. You can just browse around a look at all kinds of things and wonder "do I need one of those?" Sometimes I lose track of time. 10 minutes turns into an hour.

Quote
I have a desk in a big room with about 6 other people. Sigh.

That may actually be better than an office alone. As you have noticed, it keeps down your internet time - but maybe it also has the benefit of giving you opportunity to get to know those 5 others.

But back to SS's point. (SS is a great guy!) And you, as he clearly explained are a very accomplished and worthy person yourself.

Maybe it is because you are generally quite successful in all you do - that the impending collapse of your marriage hits you so hard. You don't have much practice in losing. Usually you win - probably almost always. I believe you're going to make it through this in good shape - with a new "win" at the end of it.

As I said on another of your threads, if I were single, you would be just the kind of lady I would be looking for. AND, I'm sure I'm not the only one. If you want to find a good man, you will find him. Probably, there's a quite suitable one less than 10 miles away - who right now, at this very moment, is eagerly looking for somebody just like you.

So, why not prepare to meet him?! As SS has noted, you know how to take care of business. Imagine that you are going to be seriously dating this guy, say, before Christmas 2006, and just put everything in order as you would like it to be at that time. Oh, and to make sure he doesn't miss you, you've got to circulate a bit - get out and be seen.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/06/05 10:56 PM
Good comments AD,
I think you are right.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/08/05 01:58 AM
Having just read another thread about bad advice being give here, I just wanted to clarify, in case I gave the wrong impression...

I'm not suggesting you go out and find a date right now, but just to put your life in a forward-looking mode. Put self in that configuration you want to be in when the time comes for that. Meanwhile, your H might suddenly remember why he liked you in the first place.

Until you're D'd, you're M'd.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/08/05 11:42 PM
Hey S,
What did she say?

Was it a good talk?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/08/05 11:44 PM
PS,
I have no idea why Lenny would stop growing.

Just wanted you to know.

Would like to hear you when you talk to her though. I wonder if she would confide in me?

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/09/05 03:05 AM
Hello.

I've had that talk with SVB1. It was a long talk. I had her write some things down. She thought about it, and then her thoughts built upon her thoughts, and now it's clear to her. I'll tell you all about it.

But FIRST, I have to reply to AD. (Hi AD) I started replying last night, and I had most of my post written, but then my H signed on-line (we share an internet account - it's been paid thru the end of August) and I got booted off-line. I lost everything. Then I was too tired to write it again.

Maybe it is because you are generally quite successful in all you do - that the impending collapse of your marriage hits you so hard. You don't have much practice in losing. Usually you win - probably almost always. I believe you're going to make it through this in good shape - with a new "win" at the end of it.

Yeah, if you think about it, is there any failure bigger than the failure of your marriage? How can you not wonder, and doubt, and feel like a failure? But I will try to do my best to make it through this.

And no clarification was necessary. I knew exactly what you meant. I need to prepare myself for when I am ready to meet Mr. Right. (I'll be talking about this again in a little while.) I will need to get out and be seen when I'm ready to meet muy guy. I know that I'm no way near ready now. I need some time to myself, and yes, I need to be D'd first, too.

Ok, now I'm going to create a new post to break this up.
I've got a lot to say.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/09/05 03:48 AM
I'm reading...
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/09/05 04:57 AM
First of all, I want to thank all of you. You have really lifted my spirits. (and that was some serious funk I was in!) I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I feel very lucky and blessed to have found this website and all of you wonderful people.

SS, I really thought about what you wrote, and about what I needed to do. I started to jot down some things that I could do that would make me feel a little better about myself. I started with the usual stuff - I need to lose weight, and go to the gym more regularly. Then I thought that maybe I could change things around my apartment. Yeah, I've got all our furniture, which I can't really replace right now, but if I changed the bedspread, added a slipcover to the sofa, changed decorations, etc. etc., my apartment could feel entirely different, and fresh, and like ME.

There's a lot more to the list. But what it boils down to is that I need to stop focusing on H and our failed marriage, and start focusing on myself. I need to let go and move on. I know I've told myself this before. I didn't think it would be so difficult. You know, now I remember something that my counselor said. She told me that, most likely, when I settled into my new place and new life, that I would suddenly crash emotionally. I think that's what I did. And I don't know if I'm fully over it yet.

See, SS, your plan worked. How do you do it??

But there's more.

I was walking on the treadmill today, and I suddenly remembered something that I learned in grad school in a leadership skills class. I think it's one of the best things that I picked up in school.

We were discussing stress in life and in the workplace, and our textbook had an exercise to help us reduce that stress. It was all about Life Balance.

There are different areas in our lives that we focus on:

family
work
social life
spiritual
emotional
intellectual
cultural

I think there's one more, but I can't think of it, and my textbook is in a box... somewhere.

But, basically, we need to focus on all areas of our lives as equally as possible. Normally, we tend to concentrate on only a few areas, like work and social life, but that's what causes the stress in our lives. Too much time at work means less time w/family or less time for spiritual growth or less time for reading for intellectual stimulation or less time for new cultural experiences, etc.etc. All of which leads to an unhappy family life, or boredom, or being stuck in a rut, or whatever, which leads to STRESS and UNHAPPINESS.

In the book, it was drawn out as a pie chart, with each section of our lives being a piece of the pie. We had to determine which areas we focused too entirely on, and shade them in - and then shade in the other areas that we neglected, to a lesser degree. Then we had to list specific activities that we would do to beef up the neglected areas. --- go see a play, call an old friend, read a particular book, or here's one (AD) get some more sleep (physical) so that you can focus more on work, etc.

I don't know, maybe the concept is kind of basic, but it was eye-opening to me. I liken it to the concepts here on MB. It seems like common sense, but it's often difficult to keep them in practice.

So, overall, I was thinking that I could focus on each of these areas. For instance, emotionally, it would probably benefit me to find a new IC in the area. Spiritually, I'd like to find a home church near my apt., which I've never done. Physically, I've already discussed that above. Intellectually (and probably emotionally), I could read that verbal abuse book that Drucilla mentioned. Socially, I need to get out more and meet new people.

Anyway, these are the things that I need to work on to help me to move on. Who knows, it could be like you said, AD, that my H could someday remember why he liked me in the first place (I'm not holding my breath, though). OR I could just be getting myself ready for a special new someone someday. In the meantime, I will just be working on making myself happy and the best ME I can be.

How's that for an answer, SS? Do you think that would work?
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/09/05 04:59 AM
I'm reading...

Ya cracked me up, AD.

Sorry it took so long. I was on a roll.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/09/05 05:08 AM
SVB,

I'm not SS, but it really sounds like what I need to do too. You are right about the sleep. I think about sleeping every day, LOL. Midnight isn't late, I tell myself. At least it's not 2 yet, and if it's 1, then it's still not 2. And reading... I've got a thousand books here at least - and I'm not reading any of them. I know how energising it can be to read soemthing new - and yet...

So, SVB. I think you are on the right track.

Now what you need are concrete goals.

I read somewhere not long ago about the neccessity of concrete goals. It's not good enough to say "I'm going to read more." We have to say "I'm going to read one book a week". You get the idea. (But they have to be realisitic goals.)

But do I get the idea?

I'm going to set some goals.... Thursday evening. But tonight, I'll sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

OK, Thursday evening is goal night.

My bedtime goal this week is 12:30. Next week, I'll make it 11:30.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/09/05 05:21 AM
AD,

Yeah, I do need concrete goals. Sleep is a good one for me, too. Starting tomorrow, I'm definitely going to start going to sleep by 11pm. Hopefully that's realistic enough.

As for you, as I figure it, you've got about 5 minutes or so to go to sleep. (if you're in the central time zone)

Good night.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/09/05 05:30 AM
zero minutes!
I didn't say I would go to sleep, but at least I'll lay down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/09/05 11:50 PM
Yes !!

You ARE on the right track.

I have seen that chart, (but had forgotten) and balance is a good thing.

If you can find things that excite you in each area, your follow through will be fun for you.

Feel the power?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/18/05 08:51 PM
SVB,
Please tell us how your are doing.

...... the inside story.

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/19/05 12:02 AM
Quote
by svb: I started to jot down some things that I could do that would make me feel a little better about myself...

There's a lot more to the list. But what it boils down to is that I need to stop focusing on H and our failed marriage, and start focusing on myself. I need to let go and move on. I know I've told myself this before. I didn't think it would be so difficult. You know, now I remember something that my counselor said. She told me that, most likely, when I settled into my new place and new life, that I would suddenly crash emotionally. I think that's what I did. And I don't know if I'm fully over it yet.

whiplash... sorry. You'd been through so much, so much stress, the move, the job, the h... no wonder. I think you'd deserved and earned your crash! You worked hard for it, you suffered, now, dang-it, I'm gonna fall apart now. Truly understandable. Hope you got that out of your system <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Quote
I was walking on the treadmill today, and I suddenly remembered something that I learned in grad school in a leadership skills class. I think it's one of the best things that I picked up in school.

We were discussing stress in life and in the workplace, and our textbook had an exercise to help us reduce that stress. It was all about Life Balance.

There are different areas in our lives that we focus on:

family
work
social life
spiritual
emotional
intellectual
cultural
But, basically, we need to focus on all areas of our lives as equally as possible

I like it! I need to remember this, myself.
Quote
(AD) get some more sleep (physical) so that you can focus more on work, etc.

I suffer from insominia, too. I'm always juggling benedryl, midol, liquor, and ear-plugs trying to get some sleep. I bet I got 2 hrs monday night. Better last night, but it sure makes it hard, walking around like a zombie all day. Good luck to you. They say exercise helps, but I'm not ready to try something so drastic.

Quote
I don't know, maybe the concept is kind of basic, but it was eye-opening to me. I liken it to the concepts here on MB. It seems like common sense, but it's often difficult to keep them in practice.

Things just click sometimes. You were ready, you heard the message. You sound great.

Quote
So, overall, I was thinking that I could focus on each of these areas. For instance, emotionally, it would probably benefit me to find a new IC in the area. Spiritually, I'd like to find a home church near my apt., which I've never done. Physically, I've already discussed that above. Intellectually (and probably emotionally), I could read that verbal abuse book that Drucilla mentioned. Socially, I need to get out more and meet new people.

Sounds really great. Now that your away from him, that book might make more sense, from your current pov. I've got a hundred self-help books, gimme a topic, I'll see what I can recommend.

You're smart, funny, and organized. I'd bet you're a hoot! You'll be appreciated... Must run... take care! - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/19/05 08:23 PM
What do you think Dru,
Did we scare her off?

My guess would be that this adjustment is more difficult than she thought. So hard in fact, that she has a really rough time talking about it.

Anyway - Hiiiii (SS waves)
Good to see you.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 08/20/05 06:19 AM
Hi, SVB. <copies SS's wave>

In case you're reading...

I sense that you're having a really hard time.

I'm not doing so well myself.

Drop in and give us a word or two if you feel like it.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/24/05 02:10 AM
Hello Dru, SS, and AD!

Thanks for posting. NO you haven't scared me off. I've checked into MB every now and then, but I've never really known what to say.

I have been, for the most part, doing pretty well. (despite having 4 migraines since Wednesday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) I've been making a lot of little changes. I feel like I'm getting some control back in my life. I'm re-discovering my old self.

I'm a little irritated today, though. I called the court to get some info on the D. I got a whole lotta attitude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Afterwards, I was downright angry at STBXH. Angry about the unfairness of it all. HE should be the one handling all of this D [email]cr@p[/email], not me. I'm irritated because I have to change my name. THEN I have to inform everyone and their neighbor about my name change. H doesn't have to do anything. It's been all too easy for him from the beginning. Why do I have to have the hard part in all of this, when HE is the one that wants to be free? Shouldn't he have to pay for his freedom?

Not only that, but I've been reading a little on the "divorcing" board. That got me thinking about some things. I read somewhere that I really need to heal after the D - that I probably need a good long while - at least a year - before I'm ready to even consider dating again. (not that I'm considering dating now anyway) And considering my age, and desire to possibly have a family someday, the wait is not a good thing. Plus, why doesn't STBXH need to heal? As far as I know, he was seeing someone else while we were M. I wonder now if he's actively seeking out others. (I keep thinking of his conversation w/his sister where he told her that, when he's free, he's going to nightclubs EVERY weekend.) He is a handsome guy - and very charming. He'll be able to find someone - or many someones - very easily.

On the other hand, I wonder if he is finding out that being alone is not what he expected it to be. I wonder if sometimes he thinks that he made a mistake and if he misses me. I seriously doubt it, though.

I know that I shouldn't be thinking about STBXH dating. I shouldn't be thinking about him at all. I can't help it sometimes. Today is one of those days. This is all too unfair.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/25/05 10:58 PM
Well, more than 90 days have gone by since H and I filed for D.

It is now time to file the remaining paperwork. Unfortunately, I have to go back to the east coast to do this. I don't see a way around it. I called STBXH 2 nights ago to tell him that we have to talk about D details. I still haven't heard from him.

I'm starting to feel a little anxiety over the issue. First of all, i'm a little worried about the remaining D steps that I need to take. (yes, I'm doing the D on my own w/o a lawyer - at the recommendation of my good friend at my old workplace. She did it and thought it was very simple -of course she lives just over the border in another state, though) I'm sure I'll be able to figure it all out, but I still can't help feeling a little unsure of myself.

Second, as you are all painfully aware, I am still having doubts about even getting a D. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> These thoughts come and go. Sometimes I can't wait to get the D over with. I think of the lack of respect, and I think of the comments that my IC made about him - that he is a sociopath and a narcissist. I think that I would be better off w/o him. Other times, I want to drag my feet about it, or cancel it entirely - with the hopes that H will eventually come to his senses. (I know - when pigs fly, right?)

Finally, I'm worried about seeing STBXH again. How should I even act around him? Again, I don't know how I can get around NOT seeing him. Do I act confident around him? Do I act as if I have no doubt in my mind that I want this D?

I'm not even sure right now when I'll be going. I imagine I can file the remaining paperwork whenever I want. I'll have to nail down some days with STBXH.
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/25/05 11:31 PM
Hi SVB,

I'm a little confused. My exH and I handled our D ourselves (no lawyers). I never left the house. Papers were sent to me, I signed and had them notorized, sent them back...we didnt have to 'coordinate' anything.

Why do you have to appear in person? Is this a court requirement, or your H draggin his feet? If your H wont answer his calls, you know what I'd be tempted to do? Call his family. It's a valid excuse to give them your side of the story UNLESS you think that will make him mess with you in the D. If the D is amicable now, I'd be tempted to be patient, see if he calls in a day or so, OR send a registered letter (or fedex, something he has to sign for) with all your questions listed out.

Also, I didnt change my name legally till I was ready to marry my current H. I was 'known' professionally as Drucilla EXHsLastname, so I kept it. Even today, I use my exH's last name professionally, on my business cards, email, etc. (my new last name is tricky!).

As far as stalling, your H hasnt given you a reason to think he's going to turn into a decent human being anytime soon. I'd proceed, and if a miracle happens, he'll look you up. Narcisistic sociapaths dont change very often or very quickly. If they do change quickly, you'll KNOW it's farce.

How to act? Unless he crawls on the floor, with commitment papers in hand, begging for forgiveness and bursting with forthright honesty, act like he's got cooties!

You dont know WHAT his issues are, but you know they're BAD for you. Honestly, I'd be nervous about seeing him too, I think that's probably pretty natural. You act like you feel: this divorce is very sad, unfortunate, but necessary in this case ~ since your H is a plumfoolidiot! (probably best leave out that last part <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Hang tuff, girl. You're probably past the worst of it. You sound mostly strong with periods of doubt. Before you were mostly in doubt with periods of strength. You're on the right track! I'm sorry your H didnt have the character you deserve! Take care - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/26/05 12:59 AM
Hi Drucilla,

I'm a little confused. My exH and I handled our D ourselves (no lawyers). I never left the house. Papers were sent to me, I signed and had them notorized, sent them back...we didnt have to 'coordinate' anything.

Did you remain in the same state? When I look over the paperwork, where I have to have it notorized, it says, "notary public, state of PA" by the notary's signature line. I am thus assuming that I have to have it notarized in PA. Shoot, if I can have the stuff notarized here and sent, I'd do it in a heartbeat. What do you think?
Plus there's at least one page that needs both of our signatures, notarized, along with 2 signatures from witnesses. Do we not have to be together to do that? I figured it'd be easiest to take the paperwork together, have them signed, notarized, etc, and be done with it all.

Also, I didnt change my name legally till I was ready to marry my current H. I was 'known' professionally as Drucilla EXHsLastname, so I kept it. Even today, I use my exH's last name professionally, on my business cards, email, etc. (my new last name is tricky!).

You know, I was going to ask about this. I had been toying with the idea of not changing my name. I have to change so much right now - address, job, etc. - I don't know if I'm ready to change my name yet. I haven't changed everything that I need to up until now. I don't even have my new state driver's license yet! I have to get my new title and plates for my car and I ONLY just got the bracket on the front of my car. It will also be a hassle to change my name at my job now, too. And finally, you say your new name is tricky? I bet it's nothing compared to my maiden name! You can count the letters in my current last name with one hand. With my maiden name, you need both hands and a foot. I'm not ready to start hearing the jokes again. H's name is short and sweet and way up there in the alphabet. The only problem I have with keeping H's name is that, well, here I am wanting to get rid of everything that reminds me of him, yet I'm thinking of keeping his name! Is that crazy thinking, or what? I guess I can always wait awhile to see how I feel later.

As far as stalling, your H hasnt given you a reason to think he's going to turn into a decent human being anytime soon. I'd proceed, and if a miracle happens, he'll look you up.

Yup, you're right. I'm still going to proceed with the D.

You're probably past the worst of it. You sound mostly strong with periods of doubt. Before you were mostly in doubt with periods of strength.

Yeah, that sounds about right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And thanks for this...

I'm sorry your H didnt have the character you deserve!
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/29/05 02:41 AM
update...

It is now time to file the remaining paperwork. Unfortunately, I have to go back to the east coast to do this. I don't see a way around it. I called STBXH 2 nights ago to tell him that we have to talk about D details. I still haven't heard from him.

I still haven't heard from him. He hadn't returned my call by Friday night, so I sent him this email:

H,

It has been more than 90 days since we've filed for D.
I thought I was going to be given a court date when I would bring in the rest of the D paperwork, but I was wrong. We only have to sign the paperwork and send it in.
However, we both have to sign the paperwork, and in front of a notary public (of PA) and two witnesses.

Can you please give me a date of when you would be available for two hours so we can do this and then we will be done with it all.

Thanks,
S

Well, now it is Sunday night, and he has not either called or replied to my email.

What's going on w/him? Is he THAT busy? Is he playing games, or is he now dragging his feet?

In the past, when he was all concerned about setting me up in my new life, if I called (which was rare anyway), he would pick up the phone immediately, or return my call the same day.

If he doesn't want to be bothered about D details right now because he's so busy w/ his new job, I am tempted to pull the D paperwork. Since HE is the one that really wants to be FREE, he can call a lawyer, or do whatever it takes himself to get the D. Honestly, I don't want to have to deal with this D stuff myself - I shouldn't have to. I don't know why I took on the responsibility of figuring out how to get D'd. It would have been nice if HE had taken it on and just let ME know that it's time for me to sign my name and be done with it all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Does anyone have any idea of what might be going on in STBXH's mind?

Of course, on the other hand, I'm thinking that the longer it takes to back to PA to do this, the better. I've already lost 5 pounds. I could lose some more in the meantime. It'd be nice to look GOOD to see him and sign the final paperwork. It'd help me to be more confident around him and let him know that I will be just fine w/o him.
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 08/29/05 03:45 PM
Do you think he's out of town? Did the subject line of your email sound official, D-stuff, or more like 'hi, howya doing?' He may blown it off if he thought you just wanted to chat.


I'd type it up, and fed-ex the letter to his office, or his parents. He'd have it tomorrow - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 08/29/05 09:17 PM
Does anyone have any idea of what might be going on in STBXH's mind?

I do not.

I mean, why would he not even try.? Why was he so abusive and never got it?

Why wouldn't he never tell the truth?

How come he would leave and lie about where he went?

If he doesn't want you, what does he want?

No, I don't know what he is thinking.

However, (I think we have touched on this a little before) I notice when people really want something, they will move heaven, and earth to get it. Do you notice these kinds of efforts on his part to restore the marriage?

As for D, he has freedom, and separated finances now. I don't know if it makes much difference for HIM, but it does for you.

I see you are frustrated, and that may be a mild way to put it. I like what Dru said - a Fed Ex letter would probably get some results.

Of course, on the other hand, I'm thinking that the longer it takes to back to PA to do this, the better. I've already lost 5 pounds. I could lose some more in the meantime. It'd be nice to look GOOD to see him and sign the final paperwork. It'd help me to be more confident around him and let him know that I will be just fine w/o him.

Remember he looks at this differently than you do. You still care, but he has shown no signs of caring for quite some time. Would he notice? Does he care?
If I read the history of the last year correctly, he hasn't reacted strongly to anything you have done for a long time.

I can identify with your feelings, it is so hard to realize he can be like this after all the effort and love you gave him for so long.

How can he just let this go?

As I said, I don't understand him. I am sure he will regret it someday - but maybe not until the judgement day.

I usually try to cheer people up. This post is hard, because in a way, it may take away some of your hope. I suppose I would like to see your hope change directions.

In the long term, it is hard for you to hope. You wanted children, stability, love, and you thought you had much of it, and the rest would follow in time. It is hard to have hope now in some of your dreams.

What are the short term hopes and dreams?

How about this weekend? What would be your first choice?

1. Sit around and mope.
2. Spend time with family.
3. Travel and see the world. (Maybe we could include a time warp to give you two months off, but when you go back to work Tues, only the weekend passed at home.)
4. Have a really nice guy show interest in you.
5. Find out your pay was doubled, your vacation time was doubled, and your work week cut in half.

Or you can add some more, I was just doing this off the top of my head.

And last of all, sorry for the pain, and the doubt. Wishing you much happiness - and healing.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 08/30/05 05:21 AM
Drucilla,

The subject of the email was very official. It said, “divorce papers.”

I don’t think he’s out of town – at least he wasn’t when I tried to contact him. I know in a previous email he just said that he’d be working a lot of hours on his new job. He had a lot of stuff that had to be done before he had training (for 4 days somewhere) THIS week.

I’m just going to let it go and figure he’s just busy with work. Yes, I was really frustrated about it at first. I’ve calmed down some. Now I figure, what’s the rush with the D anyway (other than to just cut all ties and move on)? It’s not like I’m going to run out and get married to someone else next month anyway. I can’t let him get to me anymore about what he does or doesn’t do.

SS,

However, (I think we have touched on this a little before) I notice when people really want something, they will move heaven, and earth to get it. Do you notice these kinds of efforts on his part to restore the marriage?

Yes, we have touched on this before. And again, you are right. He could care less about our marriage and me.

As for D, he has freedom, and separated finances now. I don't know if it makes much difference for HIM, but it does for you.

Yes, he has his freedom and separated finances, but I thought he really wanted a D, too, even more so. That’s why I thought this behavior was so strange.

I see you are frustrated, and that may be a mild way to put it. I like what Dru said - a Fed Ex letter would probably get some results.

Yes, I’m frustrated, but not as much as before (as I mentioned previously). We’ll see how I feel about it tomorrow – my feelings could easily change again.

Remember he looks at this differently than you do. You still care, but he has shown no signs of caring for quite some time. Would he notice? Does he care?

You’re absolutely right, he wouldn’t notice and he wouldn’t care.

I can identify with your feelings, it is so hard to realize he can be like this after all the effort and love you gave him for so long.

How can he just let this go?

I think that’s what I have the worst time with. How can he just have NO feelings at all after being together for 15 almost 16 years? How can he just let it all go and never look back? It just makes me wonder why he married me in the first place. I don’t think he ever felt the same way about me as I’ve felt about him. I becoming more convinced that he just married me for convenience, not love, and just put up with me until he was able to live comfortably on his own. Then, once that was possible, it just became unbearable to live with me anymore.

I usually try to cheer people up. This post is hard, because in a way, it may take away some of your hope. I suppose I would like to see your hope change directions.

No, don’t worry, there’s not much hope left anymore. Before we separated, H and I were already emotionally distanced (at least he was). We had no marriage. I was not a part of his life, and hadn’t been for a long time. Now, there are also almost a thousand physical miles between us as well. There is no turning back now. It’s just not possible.

I don’t mean to sound so bleak, but it’s just reality. I’m slowly starting to get it. He was done with our M and moved on a long time ago.

My hopes now ARE turning in a different direction. Really.

Believe it or not, today I hardly thought of H. (till now). My thoughts have been more on what kind of a TV to buy. I still haven’t bought one. I want to buy a nice one (need to spoil myself a little) and I want to buy just the right one and at the right price. My high tech guru brother has been coaching me.

And speaking of my brother, my mother and I will be driving down this weekend to visit him and his family. It’ll be a nice Labor Day weekend. (so I guess that means choice #2 for me on your list - spend time with family)

Also, I’ve been having some new thoughts. I thought I was done with school, but now I’m starting to think about it again. I still have around $12,500 available in education money for me to spend – and that’s not counting tuition reimbursement from work (which I haven’t fully looked into yet.) If I don’t use that cash, I will lose it. I think it’d be a shame if I didn’t use it. Plus it’ll be a nice distraction for me.

Yes, I am one of those professional students.

But the question is, what do I spend it on? Hmmmmm

What do I want to be when I grow up? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 09/01/05 07:18 PM
When you grow up?

Made me laugh, you did.

Funny, you are when you want to be.

What do you want to acomplish this weekend?
Do you want to realax, and rest, or do you want to have as much fun as you possibly can, or help your family enjoy the trip?

How about school? What are you thinking?

I believe you about changing directions with your thoughts.......mostly. I still think it will be a slow process, and process it will be, not like turning a switch.

You once mentioned finding a church, I hope this was successful. I believe it to be important. If not, prayer will help, and listen to your feelings during, and after you pray. Don't be afraid to try things that will help you.

S,
It is not hard for me to remember how important you are, and how talented you are. I pray that it will be on your mind also, and give you strength and hope. I sometimes find myself thinking about what you have been through, and what will become of you. I still believe your future to be glorious, but you have to beleive it too. Do your best, and trust God with the rest. Tell him your dreams when you pray, and ask him to help you with them. Ask for direction too, he is good about that, and so gentle most of the time.

Please let us know how the weekend goes. My Tv is pretty small, so am waiting to hear what you get. I'll be happy for you. It sounds like you don't watch much..........which is probably good for you, but it gives you time to think too - maybe too much?

My thoughts wander, I should get back to work.

Wishing you a good weekend.
No, wishing you a great weekend. Let us know how it goes.

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 09/01/05 08:55 PM
Hi SVB,

I'm not terribly surprised about your H and the paperwork. He got what he wanted: Freedom - now he's being irresponsible about the paperwork, because he can be.

What do you think about calling his folks, giving them an update? - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 09/02/05 03:20 AM
Well, apparently STBXH called me last night and left me a message. I didn’t hear it until tonight. He left it on my voicemail system instead of my answering machine – which means I was on the Internet when he called.

He said he just got home from work (Wed night 8 pm) and was tired and was going to go to sleep. He said, "I just got home and found your message, I don't know what day you called. I was away from home since Saturday." He didn’t say where he went. He said he’d call me tonight after work – but it’s already 11pm by him – so it doesn’t look like he will. I guess it doesn’t look like I’ll talk to him until next week, since I’m leaving straight after work tomorrow to head down to my brother’s for the long weekend. I don’t think I want to call him from my bro’s house. What I don’t get is that he said he wasn’t home since Saturday, and he only just got my message, but yet I left him the message last Wed or Thurs, and sent him the email on Friday. Whatever.

I mailed him a small package yesterday. I found a few little things of his while I was unpacking, and I never got around to mailing them until yesterday. I sent a short note with it. He should get it tomorrow.

Yeah, I’m feeling bummed again tonight. Bummed, and very annoyed. I don't know if I should try to call him over the weekend, or send him an email telling him to call me next week, or if I should just blow him off now like he did to me.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 09/02/05 05:25 AM
This moving on stuff is harder than I thought. When am I going to stop caring about what he does or doesn't do?
I'm trying to live my life and keep busy, but I still have a hard time letting go.

I'm getting all stressed out about him not returning my calls and emails, while he, on the other hand, doesn't have a care in the world. He probably wouldn't give 2 thoughts about when I'd ever return his call. Why do I get the feeling that my STBXH is different than any other WH on this board? He doesn't seem to have feelings, or a heart, at all. He doesn't seem to have any doubts, regrets, remorse, or ANYTHING, about our situation. Maybe he truly is a sociopath - just uses people to his advantage, then throws them away when he's done with them, without any thought of the pain and destruction that he causes. I know that a lot of spouses come to realize through time that they made a mistake after getting a D. Somehow, I don't see my H as one of those.

SS,

What do you want to acomplish this weekend?
Do you want to realax, and rest, or do you want to have as much fun as you possibly can, or help your family enjoy the trip?

I think I want to relax this weekend. It looks like we'll be watching a lot of movies. My bro just finished his basement, and it now includes a home theater, along with a bar w/ a professional cappuccino/expresso machine, and a popcorn machine. I'm looking forward to kicking back and watching some good flicks on a big screen, while sipping some cappuccino! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What about you, SS? Do you have anything special planned w/ your family this weekend?

How about school? What are you thinking?

I'm really not sure yet. I don't know if I should build on the education that I have already, or be crazy and study something way out in left field.

I was actually considering law school. Probably tax law. I just don't know if I'm the lawyer-type.
Maybe I should look into taking the LSAT, first, to see how I do.

Maybe I should nix the school idea. Maybe I should just get a part-time job in the evenings. I think all I need is something to occupy my time, and my mind. I really need to get my mind off my failed M. It's just that I hate to let that school $$$ go to waste.

I believe you about changing directions with your thoughts.......mostly. I still think it will be a slow process, and process it will be, not like turning a switch.

Boy, you've got that right! I've already had a big setback tonight.

You once mentioned finding a church, I hope this was successful. I believe it to be important. If not, prayer will help, and listen to your feelings during, and after you pray. Don't be afraid to try things that will help you.

No, not yet. I've been spending the majority of my weekends down at my mom's. I don't feel comfortable at my old church (growing up) as a D'd person, and I haven't gone. I feel that D'd people aren't really welcome there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Please let us know how the weekend goes. My Tv is pretty small, so am waiting to hear what you get. I'll be happy for you. It sounds like you don't watch much..........which is probably good for you, but it gives you time to think too - maybe too much?

I'm a little afraid to get the tv. I'm afraid that I'll come home from work in the future and sit in front of the tv and zone out all night. I really don't want to do that. I really should be more productive w/my time. That's why I was thinking about school or a part time job.

I'll keep you posted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have a good weekend, too.

Drucilla,

What do you think about calling his folks, giving them an update?

I guess I don't have to worry about that anymore, now that STBXH has (sort of) contacted me.

His family is in Argentina, too, and I think I would have felt awkward talking to his sister. I wouldn't have a clue what to tell her.

I hope you have a great weekend, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 09/02/05 06:20 AM
Hi, SVB!

If it were me, I would for sure not let that education money go to waste. I don't know how you got it, but if had it, I would surely study something.

I have a little book - called something like "100 secrets of happiness" - which I like because it uses statistics. It will say something like "people who do this are 6% more likely to say that they are happy". One item is on TV watching. In short, they find that the more TV a person watches, the less happy he/she is. It's one of the reasons I haven't bought a TV (other than that I'm cheap, LOL). I do have a 13" TV here, but I have watched it very little - some Katrina coverage lately, but mostly I get news on the web. I'm planning to drop the cable to save money.

Oh and about your H, and can say nothing. I don't know what he's thinking. Maybe you shouldn't worry about what he's thinking - or where he's going. I know it's hard. He is your husband, after all.

Oh, my DD has discoverd the word "Husband". She asked me a week or so ago "Daddy, are you Mama's husband?". I said "Yes, I'm your Mama's husband". Then, of course she tried on a lot of sentenses with the new word - such as "You're going to be my husband" (LOL) to which I replied "No, sweety, you're going to have to find somebody else for that. He's probably a little boy now." Apparently she was working on my wife too. W said today that DD asked her "Is Papa your husband?" W said she felt she had to hang her head a bit and say "Yes, your Papa is my husband.", LOL. I think it's helping a bit.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 09/02/05 05:10 PM
I keep wishing the pain and doubts would leave you alone. I know it's hard. Maybe I should just change the subject.

What about you, SS? Do you have anything special planned w/ your family this weekend?

Saturday I will try to catch up on my personal filing, and clean up my side of the bedroom. I tend to let it go........ then white tornado it. I Found out yesterday that my dad has had a problem with his toilet, and I will replace that for him Sat. Once, in another life, I worked construction, and he considers me to be his personal handyman. I consider it an honor.

Sunday, we will do church as usual, and I'll visit some neighboors that are getting on in years and like to have some one come to talk to them. The evening, will be spent with my W, and the twins. Probably reading, and talking. Monday, we have a hike planned. We will be going here -
The Kanara Canyon hike

It's about a 35 minute drive from our house to where the hike starts. Anyone is welcome to come, bring your own lunch.

I'll get back to you about your other comments. We'll see if I can do it sooner, rather than later.

Have some popcorn for me, I love it. It's even healthy if you don't put too much stuff on it. In moderation of course, I never eat more than 5 normal people would eat.

Anyway, I'll get back to you, please enjoy your time away. Your brother won't understand your feelings, and he may try to keep you busy so you can have "fun." If you get tired of it, just tell him that you appriciate his efforts, but you need some time alone to rest. Smile alot, they love you, and it will help them think you are making progress. Remember, they care, and they are trying to help.

One more thing I can't leave till later.

When you remembered about balance - doing things to help in the different areas of your life........
I was happy you suggested doing something, but worried if you would find the energy. Look at it differently for now. Look at it not as improving yourself in each area, but find something each week (trade off) where you can have fun with one of the areas in the wheel. Find something you can get excited about, and do it. Cycle through the things and then start over. Please?
I think once you get started, it will be easier to build on and make the changes you want.

God be with you, travel and return safely.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Question - 09/07/05 04:31 AM
Just a quick update for now...

STBXH finally called me tonight. We spoke for about 10 minutes total. It was strictly business. He didn't even ask me how I was.

He wanted to know if I could sign the paperwork and have it notarized where I am instead of flying out to PA to do it.

He's going to call the courthouse to see if that's ok.
I'm glad he is, because I don't want to.

So I guess he still wants the D. It looks like he'd rather move mountains to get D'd rather than move mountains to make the marriage work. It also seems like he doesn't want to see me probably just as much as I don't want to see him (or more).

I don't even know how I feel anymore.
Posted By: LimboLand Re: Question - 09/07/05 05:58 AM
I am new here, but I have spent the last 20 or 30 minutes browsing through this thread...wow, what a ride you have been on. I have no advice, I'm just at the beginning stages of this whole process, but I just wanted to send (((hugs))) and prayers your way.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Question - 09/07/05 07:16 AM
SVB,

I know it's maddening for you to go through this - trying to read his mind - and hoping that he somehow cares.

The pen-wielding hand of the judge is drawing nigh to our papers also, and WW is trying to negotiate a return to status quo (excecpt she's will to pledge NC again). I don't know what's going to happen - or what I want to happen.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Question - 09/13/05 07:56 PM
Hi.........

I wish I was more regular at posting. I do wonder between posts.

Just a quick update for now...

I still want to hear how your trip went for the holiday. I hope you don't mind talking about it. The interaction you have with your family is important, and is a sort of a gage, though I admit, I like you, and your family. I ask to hear the way you describe things. You have a good sense of humor, and lots of wit. Hmmm, you do know that, don't you?

STBXH finally called me tonight. We spoke for about 10 minutes total. It was strictly business. He didn't even ask me how I was.

I have said before, I don't know everything, not even close. However, I was afraid back in Dec/Jan that he would end up being like this. I was afraid for your feelings.

It doesn't matter what our head knows, or how smart we are, rejection by those that we love takes a toll on us. I feel for you, wish it were otherwise. AD knows, he feels it too.

I sit here for a time thinking, wishing I could help, though I know words won't do much for you, or for AD.

He wanted to know if I could sign the paperwork and have it notarized where I am instead of flying out to PA to do it.

He's going to call the courthouse to see if that's ok.
I'm glad he is, because I don't want to.


It must be hard to go through the motions and finish these things that you never wanted to happen in the first place.

A marriage license is such a joy, the divorce work must be he$$ for you. I am sorry.

So I guess he still wants the D. It looks like he'd rather move mountains to get D'd rather than move mountains to make the marriage work. It also seems like he doesn't want to see me probably just as much as I don't want to see him (or more).

I used to try and understand him, but I have given up on that. I prayed for a long time that God wouldn't give you false hope - that your H wouldn't stall for the wrong reasons. I also prayed that if there was any way it could be made to work that it would work. I still wish for you, but suspect those wishes are in vain. I am glad he (H) didn't prolong the agony though, and that he was honest about it in the end.

I don't even know how I feel anymore.

Oh, I suspect I do. Should I be silent? Should I mouth your feelings - though we know words wouldn't do them justice?

No......... no, I won't do that.

Now, I know they change from day to day, but long term, from week to week, it still hurts, and some of those nights are hard to take.

I think a lot about that, and about you. My earlier judgement stands, you will get through this and be happy in the future. I can't see it any other way.

You know what you have to do (mostly) and it remains to make it from day to day until every day looks bright, and the nights are no longer so dark. I believe you will do it, I am sure of it. Pleae borrow my faith, and your Mothers, and your brothers, until you get your own.

Psalms 30:5

Now, please tell us how the trip went, and how work is, and what your days are like, and if you got a TV, and how church is going, and what the apartment feels like, and ........ everything.

SS
Posted By: Drucilla Re: Question - 09/13/05 08:34 PM
Hi SVB,
Quote
Why do I get the feeling that my STBXH is different than any other WH on this board? He doesn't seem to have feelings, or a heart, at all. He doesn't seem to have any doubts, regrets, remorse, or ANYTHING, about our situation. Maybe he truly is a sociopath - just uses people to his advantage, then throws them away when he's done with them, without any thought of the pain and destruction that he causes.

You need to remember that your stbxh has some MAJOR issues, that have been pointed out by others, not just yourself. Normal rules do not apply to the mentally ill, and you are not equiped to evaluate him! It's pointless, eitherway. You'll feel so much better about this one when you 'give it up to God'.

Quote
Maybe I should nix the school idea. Maybe I should just get a part-time job in the evenings.

TAKE THE SCHOOL, TAKE THE SCHOOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
I'm a little afraid to get the tv. I'm afraid that I'll come home from work in the future and sit in front of the tv and zone out all night. I really don't want to do that. I really should be more productive w/my time.

I was afraid about that, too, after my D. But I surprised myself by really making myself get OUT everyday. Riding my bike, shopping, seeing live music, museums, every used bookstore...

It's say you start feeling better about this at about 6 months. Just a hunch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. - Dru
Posted By: _AD_ How're you doing, SVB? - 09/14/05 07:03 AM
SVB1,

How are things?

-AD
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 04:59 PM
Hi SVB,

I have never posted here but was following your story. You haven't posted in a while, and I was wondering how you are doing these days.

I feel I am in the same boat where my husband claims he has been miserable for years and wants out. He said he wants out 9 1/2 months ago, and moved out 4 1/2 months ago. No paperwork has been filed yet, but his mind seems to be set firmly. What's also similar is that even though H has had many secrets and lies, it does not appear that he has OW at this point. H may, but no one knows. It is also similar that H is from Europe and I am from Japan, and we met in college when I was an exchange student. I have always made more money than H did, which I never though he did not like, as he always told his friends and family that he was proud of my sucess. Yet, apparently, he always felt inadequate.

Oh by the way, I am in Chicago too! I work in the city and live in the burb. You are lucky though you are close to your family. Mine is 8000 miles away.... But b/c we have a son, things can get complicated and I may never be able to go home with DS3 to be close to my family. That really depresses me.

I hope you are feeling better. I think you are very brave and strong.
Posted By: Drucilla Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 05:43 PM
Hi Milk,

I certainly see the similarities between your's and SVB's situations. H's with secret lives who want to ditch the marriage to fully immerse themselves in immoral lifestyles. It's such a shame. And so unnecessary, if they could have only been more honest with themselves earlier.

I feel like the grim reaper... cant help much except to advise women to get away from these men with big secret lives. 'looks like it's over, time to bring in Dru'. Shoot me.

My dad lived a double life. Women, prob prostitutes, porn, OC's.... It got worse over the years, till he died suddenly. I dont understand why they think it's ok to drag someone down like that. My mother was miserable, they fought constantly, and the whole family was tortured for it.

Your H's have at least been clear about getting out of the marriage. It's almost a small blessing, compared to what some BS's have been through. STD's, OC's, bankruptcy... makes me shudder.

And in both of your cases, this wasnt about EN's or OP's, and I suspect that they would have left any W they had been with at the time. Their problems have very little to do with you or SVB. Your H (milk) has admitted to SA, and I have a very strong suspicion that SVB's H is in the same boat.

I almost lost my current H to SA. It's been three years, and I think I'm finally feeling secure, again. With all we've been through, I've learned that the odds are so very low with SA's. I hate even reading threads about SA. But I've never advised anything that I didnt or wouldnt do myself. After my dday #2, I was packing his bags. It took huge commitment and action by him to convince me to give it another shot.

I hope you both are doing well today - Dru
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 06:52 PM
Hi Dru, you sound like an extremely strong person. I admire your strength. My weakness is that I attach myself to things (my parents, husband, son, friends, pets, and things from house to stuffed animals) very easily and just cannot let go.

SVB is saying a while back that "letting go" has been a lot harder than she thought... I can totally relate myself!

Really, Dru, do you think you can just send me some of your strength that I can take twice a day with some food?
Posted By: Drucilla Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 08:57 PM
Sometimes I dont know, either. I recently had to put down my 17 yo kitty. I dont know who did that... I mean, I was there, I spoke, participated, etc... then became a pile of jello for months. Who was the woman who did that, and where is she now that I'm a mess? Same when I divorced my 1st H. I did it, but looking back I wonder why I thought I had the [email]b@lls[/email] to do it (I was young, 2000 miles away from home, could barely pay my bills, and not a single friend around). Who did that? (I wasnt torn up about d'ing my ex... I was so glad to be rid of that sob - I didnt care about the rest, I guess).

I kinda expected the same when asking my H to leave. I knew it had to be done, but I also knew I'd be a worthless blob afterwards. But, it had to be done, and I couldnt change my mind just because it caused me extreme pain. It is absolutley impossible for me to live with an active SA. I'd worry for the rest of my life, I'd never sleep, I'd become a paranoid beooitch whod make him WISH he was dead, and I cant live that way. (If you read about MBTI-entj's, you'd see we ABHORE drama, and MUST keep life calmly logical.) He had to take 100% responsibility, get help, be helped, and be recovered.

You'll find your strength, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. With your DS you have so many more reasons to strong than I did. I needed a kick in the butt a few times. Hang tuff!!! - Dru
Posted By: Slammed1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 08:59 PM
Hi Milkshake, SVC, Drucilla,
Sorry to join the club, but I guess I'm in the same
boat. My H also has emotional/mental issues, although
I'm not sure to what extent, and how much they have
played into our situation.
H was diagnosed with depression and OCD about five
years ago and has been on numerous meds since-
has probably tried 7-8 different AD's, and even
some meds for ADD to see if they made any difference.
(None really have). Everyone he's seen has also
stressed to him that he needed to do therapy as
well as meds, an idea that he has really resisted.
He did, however, try to different therapists, and
didn't have good results, which has really soured
him on the idea.
Four years ago, H had an inappropriate internet
friendship with OW in a nearby town. I found out
about it, called her, put an end to it, and that
was the first I knew of H's discontent with the M
and me. Within a couple of months, he had started
EA with an older, recently widowed woman (strange
choice), during which I moved out of the house
because I couldn't stand the lying, secrets, and
very bizarre (fog) behavior.
About this time, I discovered MB, read all the books,
looked hard at myself to discover that I really was
guilty of lots of LB's, tried to figure out his
EN's, etc. OW ended the relationship, so H started
to come out of the fog, and asked me to get back
together. I moved back home, and we seemed to make
a pretty good recovery.
For most of three years, things went pretty well,
however starting last year, there started to be
little things and signs of problems (although I didnt
really see them at the time).Things would then
improve for awhile, so I would hope things had
"blown over" and would improve- a form of denial,
I guess !
We had a very nice Christmas, but seems like this
whole year has been a "downhill" slide right into
the pits. Started to find slips of paper with women's
names and numbers, cash in H's briefcase, catching
him in lies about his whereabouts, subscriptions to
some questionable internet sites, and suspicious
charges on his credit cards. Realized he seemed to
be going from an occasional look at porn, to checking
out websites, and think he may have been even gone to
using escort services eventually. (so gross !!!)
Did some reading and research and found about SA,
which seemed to fit H. Tried to talk to him about
it and urged him to get help, but, of course, he
totally denied that he could have any such thing.
I tried to do a good PLAN A.

Since June, things really have declined. H started
going out more, doing "binge" type drinking for several
weekends and very nearly getting in an accident and/or
arrested ! (This seemed to scare him, so he's not been
drinking since that I know of). H stayed at his office
long hours, which I suspect was his time to be on the
internet (has used sites like Lavalife and Friendfinder)
and/or cell phone, and was increasingly secretive,
dishonest, inconsiderate, etc., all FOG type behaviors.
Still, we spent lots of time together- ran errands, went
to eat, movies, made future plans for travel and our house, and still were sleeping in the same bed. (no SF for ages) It made me think H was still somewhat invested in the M.

In early Aug, H announced he was going away for the
weekend, saying it was with a co-worker (male) and for
business purposes. I didn't believe it and didn't want
him to go, but he did anyway. I later saw his CC
bill, and found charges for an expensive resort and
restaurants in a different town, so I definitely felt
he had A going on with one or more OW.
I got access to the cell phone bill and found numerous
calls to one number, so called and it was a woman who
said my H had called her a few times but nothing more- (internet "friends") She said he had told her he was single, no kids, successful businessman and wealthy (all
not true) so was angry to find out he had lied.
(what did she expect in dealing with people on web sites?)
Thought that might have put an end to the issue, but
his strange behaviors continued- he would say he didn't
want to be with me, didn't want to be married, wasn't
happy, wanted to be "on his own", but then call and ask
if I wanted him to bring home something for dinner.)!!!??
Might say we couldn't do anything together on a Saturday
because "we're not together", but then the next day want
to do things together all day. VERY confusing and eratic.
Not sure if that's all FOG or mental/emotional issues too!?

Found a receipt indicating that H went to the courthouse
and picked up a packet of separation/divorce paperwork,
but he it sat in a drawer in our house for several weeks,
until H announced he was again going out of town for a
weekend. Wouldn't tell me any details, where he was
going, with who, etc. When he left, he sat the paperwork
packet out on the desk. I looked at it, horrified and
had the worst weekend of my life, realizing H must really
be obsessed with someone, really living the "fantasy"
life in the FOG, and that we really might not make it
this time.
Had a call over that weekend from H's credit card company
trying to reach him to verify use of his CC in LAS VEGAS
and realized that he had flown there for the weekend !
He came home in a very agitated, hostile, aggressive mood
and proceeded to fight with me every morning before I left
for work, and each night before bed, absolutely insisting
that I HAD to fill out the divorce paperwork, HAD to do
it that day, that he HAD to file it immediately.
Don't know what brought on the sudden rush, but it made
me wonder if H's OW wanted proof he was separated or
something ??? H threatened to have me served with the
paperwork, probably knowing I wouldn't want it brought
to my job, continued to fuss, (almost like a child's
tantrum) and finally, I agreed I would sign it and
have it notarized. He then calmed down, and left to
go out of town again. Before he left, he calmed me
with what I guess was a "guilt" call- said he wasn't
trying to be difficult, wasn't trying to be hard or
unfair, just wanted to proceed and get things done
and wanted me to realize it was hard for him too.
(WHY would I think that when it was all his doing ?)
I did sign the paperwork, had it notarized, and left
it on our desk, as he said he would pick it up and
file it when he got back in town.
Well, I got home, expecting the paperwork to be gone
and everything to be done, and there it was still at
our house. H hadn't even come over, didn't call,
didn't know if he was even okay or back in town.
He called the next day to say he was "back" -
but wouldn't be coming back to stay at the house.
I had a very long, sad weekend- H and I used to
do everything together, so really missed him as
a companion. Did some things away from home Sunday,
and came home to find him car on the driveway.
Didn't want to see him, so stayed away until he'd gone,
and to my surprise, the paperwork was still there
and he had taken his wedding ring from his jewelry
box (had not been wearing it regularly for a couple
of weeks). This was very confusing, also made me
wonder if this meant he wasn't so sure about the D
after all ?
Although I know the MB plans don't necessarily work
with people who have emotional/mental issues or SA,
but for lack of knowing what else to do, and because
MB principles seemed to help previously, decided I
would consider his moving out as a PLAN B, and also
read "Love Must Be Tough" to help me set boundaries
and be "tougher".
I decided to go out of town for Labor Day Weekend,
and when I got home, H had been at the house to take
a few more clothes, and had taken the paperwork, so
I felt very deflated. After not calling him at all,
asking any questions, or trying to talk about anything,
I did ask H if he thought there was a chance we could
work on things, have a "fresh start" ? Instead of
the immediate "no", I expected, he said "he doubted it",
which seemed to leave the door open just a bit-
He also told me he'd be going out of town again, but
this time told me where he was going and with whom.
(business related, with a male co-worker).
He also seemed much more "clear", calm, and our
conversation was more pleasant.
Found out he had run out of the most recent meds he'd
been on (which I thought had made him worse) so
thought this might be a why, and be good thing !

Had an okay weekend, and he called Sun night to tell me
he was back. Saw him briefly Mon night, as he came over
to the house to switch vehicles. Nothing has been said
about the paperwork, but he has apparently not filed
anything still.

Yesterday he was at the house when I came home- was
picking up a few more clothes, and initially our
encounter was fine. Then he told me he had found a
buyer for one of our vehicles and wanted me to
immediately sign the title so it could be sold.
I was surprised, as thought we had decided to
keep the car. We discussed further, and seems like
it actually would be a good business move, but
as soon as I asked questions and didn't just go
along with "his plan" he was back in the hostile,
loud, agressive and ugly mode- just like with the
paperwork. Does this seem like it is a control/
manipulation issue ?
He proceeded to tell me how we need to get moving
to finish house projects so we can put it up for
sale, as he doesn't want to pay house payments
when he doesn't live there. I reminded him he's
only been gone 3 weeks, so not like he's paying
payments for months ! Also reminded him I and
dog do not have an alternate place to stay- but
his response was totallly uncaring and "not
my problem". He seemed to think I should just
rush out and find a cheap apartment in one day
to suit his time schedule ! He left mad,then
called a few minutes later to say "he's not
trying to be difficult or give me a hard time,
he just wants to move forward and "get on with
his life" and it was hard for him too"
(same guilt speech as before).
Very frustrating, mad, hurt, and sad to realize what
a fog he is in, that he's totally re-written our history and special times together, has totally closed down all feelings and just appears to be a cold and unfeeling,
stranger while I am losing my (used to be) best friend
spouse, lover, lifestyle, house, and car. (he makes far
more money than I, so I will be one suffering
financially).

H won't admit anything is going on with anyone, but
I just really feel he has something happening- either
enjoying "playing the field" with people on the internet
to whom he can make himself sound like a wonderful,
wealthy bachelor, or if he's hooked up with a specific
person. All my channels to research have been closed
down, especially since he's now out of the house.

Should I write a Plan B letter, or is there any point
since he elected to move out, and is (sort of) pushing
towards the D ?
I realize there have been ocassions where the WH has
changed their mind, even after D is filed, but H seems
so foggy and D only takes 3 months here, so may be too
late. Any suggestions, input, support ?
Thanks,
Anne
Posted By: Drucilla Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 09:21 PM
Hi Slammed,
Best to start a new thread, you'll get more replies... but...

Quote
H won't admit anything is going on with anyone, but
I just really feel he has something happening- either
enjoying "playing the field" with people on the internet
to whom he can make himself sound like a wonderful,
wealthy bachelor, or if he's hooked up with a specific
person.

He's at best a serial adulterer, SA seems possible, but the big thing is that he has no remorse or shown any intention on changing. Have you gotten his family and close friends involved?

Trips to Vegas worry me, financially speaking... I'd get that D finalized asap. He's spiraling downward, quickly. Since he's showing no signs of stopping, I'd get clear, in every way possible. I was about to type, 'I dont know why seemingly normal people change like this', but your H has a long history of this type of behaviour. I cant imagine the toll it's taken on you. I hope you have a good support system of friends and family you can lean on. You need to start taking care of yourself and let him sink on his own. He sounds scary, to me. Please take care of yourself!! - Dru

I am very sorry. If he gets his life straightened out, I'm sure you'll be the first one he apologizes to. But I wouldnt wait...
Posted By: Slammed1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/15/05 10:11 PM
Thanks Drucilla,
I'm certainly glad that you beat the odds and were
able to recover with your H. I sure would love to
do that too, but am feeling that my situation is
pretty hopeless.

H doesn't have any close friends (wonder why ?)
and is not at all close to his family, so didn't
really have anyone to "expose" to. I thought of
talking to his family, however, his Dad has just
been in the hospital with health issues, and may
have lung cancer, so I didn't really want to add
more to their problems, for the time being anyway.
My family and friends do know, and I have good
support from them ,as well as seeing an IC.
It's just so hard to remember that we were doing
things together and making plans for our house,
holidays, etc. just a few weeks ago and now are
having these ugly confrontations and contemplating
D. I know that I've never been perfect, but have
loved my H with all my heart for the 10 years we've
been together, and have tried to do everything I
possibly could to make it a good marriage.
I guess I felt like being patient and putting up
with a lot would earn me some reward,, and this
crap isn't it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Also hard because before we got together I had a
paid-off car, owned my own townhouse, had no
big bills, money for things I needed, traveled,
and did things with friends- basically content
with my life. Now, I have a high car payment,
can't afford to keep our house so will have to
move, and will have a very tight budget, and
have our dog to care for as well. (I am happy
for her company and companionship, but does
add expense and complications to housing,
etc.) Fortunately, my parents do live in the
same town and are trying to be as helpful and
supportive as possible. Likely I will stay in
our house until it sells, then stay with them
for a little while so I can get my finances
in order and look for my own new place.

Sorry,guess I am feeling sorry for myself today,
it's just not where I ever thought I be, and
feels like going backwards instead of forwards
in life. Right now, it is taking all my energy
to make it through a work day, eat a little
something, play with the dog, keep up the house
and get some extra sleep. Does anyone else feel like
they have lost their own identity ?
I feel like I was so busy being "wife"- keeping up
the house, doing the laundry, shopping, errands,
cooking, paying the bills, and "Taking care" of
H that I don't know what to do with just myself
now.

I don't know how to move this to a new thread, if that's
possible. If anyone does, it would be fine with me...
Thanks !
Slammed (Anne)
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/16/05 03:44 PM
Hi Slammed, I have a meeting this afternoon and won't be able to log in till tonight or tomorrow but will get back. Your H does sound very strange by making such a rush decision and wanting to divorce ASAP. Something must be up. Also it does sound like he is ADD/ADHD. Mine has also ADD/ADHD.
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/16/05 09:52 PM
Yikes!

I'm not used to seeing so much activity on my thread!

Hello to everyone
My old buddies - SS, AD, Drucilla
My new buddies - LimboLand, Milkshake, Slammed1

I'll be posting to you more individually later on, but for now, thank you for posting.

Overall, believe it or not, I'm doing pretty well. This is despite the fact that my H called me earlier this week and threw the D work back into my lap. He's "too busy" with work and with moving in to his new apartment this week (today). Plus, since he didn't "start" the D paperwork, and doesn't have everything that I have, he's not even sure what he needs to ask them. aaarggghh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I've got to take care of some things for now, but I'll be back.
Posted By: still seeking Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/16/05 10:05 PM
Long time, no see.

Aaarggghh indeed. I would say the same.

Anyway, you sound really good for someone stressed like that. I mean that sincerely.
Really.

SS
Posted By: Slammed1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/16/05 10:28 PM
Hi SVB (and others)
I will be glad to correspond with you too, anytime.
I usually do not have access to a computer over the
weekend, but will be back on Monday.

H called this morning to ask if I wanted to meet for
lunch, which I assumed was going to be the finalization
of our business over selling one of our cars today.
Met him, had a pleasant lunch, but he had not done
the car transaction yet, brought up nothing about it
and really didn't seem to have any real purpose for
getting together. Makes me wonder if it's a guilt
thing, or ambivalence !?
He's not said anything further about the D paperwork, although he does have it. I assume he would tell me
if he filed, as there is a mandatory meeting with a
court "liaison" type person, so he'd have to let me
know that.

I am glad for the days off work, but kind of dread
weekends, as it's more time by myself, and I really
feel the loss of companionship by H (we did most
everything together prior to current problems).
I am trying to make plans with some friends, will
do laundry, housework, laundry, and find some other
things to keep me busy too.

Best wishes for a good weekend to everyone.
Slammed

BS- me, 41
WH- 38
No kids together (H has d12) Dog is our kid !
Together 10 years, married 7
2000- H diagnosed with depression
2001- H has inappropriate internet flirtation, followed
by EA with older, recently widowed OW (ttl of 7 months)
2002-2004- Recovery (?) Things going better
2005- H has no interest in SF, weird/secretive behavior,
I suspect possible SA, EA/PA with internet "friends"
Aug 2005- H moves out of house, sudden rush for D, but
does not file paperwork.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/18/05 12:44 PM
Quote
I'll be posting to you more individually later on, but for now, thank you for posting. (SVB)

<AD continues to drum his fingers on the desk, glancing first at his watch, then the calendar.>

"I'm looking forward to it", he says.

Quote
Overall, believe it or not, I'm doing pretty well.

You sound good, too!

I don't know what to say about your H dumping all the D work on you. I did essentially all of it on my D also. But I was using an attorney, so it wasn't difficult.

Quote
I've got to take care of some things for now, but I'll be back.

Oh, that sounds very good! Too busy to hang around in the boiling pot of misery called GQII.

Oh, but if you do happen to stop by, wave or something so we'll know for sure you weren't on that train yesterday.

-AD
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/19/05 04:53 PM
Hi everyone and good to hear from you SVB. You sound really good. Is the key to keep yourself busy?

I hope I will be as strong as you are today in months...

Yes, do let us know when you are here. Take care.
Posted By: Slammed1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/19/05 05:11 PM
Hello SVB, Milkshake, AD, etc.

Made it through the weekend, but they are sure
long and hard on me.
WH and I normally did everything together-
ran errands, worked on the house/yard, went
out to eat, watched a movie, etc, so I
really feel the loss of his companionship.

I did try to make some plans- went out to dinner
and hung out with a friend Fri night, then attended
a concert yesterday afternoon, but the times between
were sad and I felt lonely.
It's hard having all of H's things there, but him
gone (he took only some clothes and toiletries).
It's hard having the dog looking for him.
It's hard taking care of everything from paying the
bills to mowing the lawn.
It's hard knowing he is out having fun while I'm
home- sad, lonely, feeling the loss of H and M.

Friday he had called me to ask if I was available
for lunch- I assumed he wanted to discuss or
finalize the sale of our vehicle. Went to lunch,
which was pleasant and calm, but no mention of
the vehicle, or any real reason for the lunch (???)
Got home Fri night and he had left a message
regarding our dog. (again no real reason ???)
Then didn't hear from him all weekend until last
night-

Last night's situation was odd. I heard the garage
door and realized he was there to pick up his
vehicle. (we had 3, and he got good offer for one
last week, so we agreed to sell). I looked out to
see who had dropped him off, and saw our (former)
vehicle driving away but couldn't tell who was
driving. H had barely walked in the house when
his cell phone was ringing and he disappeared.
I thought he'd gone upstairs, but realized he
went outside, and had actually walked part way
up the street. Didn't know if he was looking
for the person who dropped him off or if he
was just not wanting me to hear the phone call ???
Came back after about 10 minutes, but seemed
agitated, pre-occupied, and in a hurry.
He looked at his mail stack (didn't take it),
played with the dog for a minute, and left in
his car. Said he had to "get home".
(Funny, I thought our house was HOME, not some
apartment or hotel where he is staying).
After he left I started wondering if he just wanted
to keep our other vehicle and said he was selling it
or if he was taking it to give to some OW ???

Sure wish I could check up and find out for sure
if there is an actual OW. I had access to the cell
phone records until about a month ago, when he removed
me from the account (I was on a family plan with his
phone). I know can't check those records and don't
know where he is staying, but had assumed it was
either a hotel or he had rented a small apartment.
With his behavior, I'm sure something's going on.

Will probably see him within the next couple of days,
as he's to give me my portion of the proceeds from
selling the car.

Funny how he was in such a huge rush to do the D
paperwork, but hasn't done anything with it.
He was in such a huge rush to sell the car last week,
but waited all week.
I know I can't figure him out and don't put much effort
into trying, it's just too exhausting.

How are all of you doing ?
Slammed !
Posted By: Slammed1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/19/05 08:51 PM
BUMP for thoughts, comments
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/20/05 05:54 PM
How are things with you SVB?
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/21/05 02:30 AM
I can't believe how much time has passed by. I'm having a difficult time keeping up.

AD continues to drum his fingers on the desk, glancing first at his watch, then the calendar

You cracked me up, AD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm sorry for taking so long.

Here's the problem with posting here for me:

1. I haven't had an unlimited internet access provider for the past month or so. I've been limited in the amount of time I can spend online. (I've signed up for one today, though)

2. I can't post to MB at work like I used to.

3. It's physically uncomfortable to post. (My computer is currently on the floor in my bedroom.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

4. Finally, yes, I've been trying to keep busy. MB somehow keeps me wallowing in the past.

But, like I said, I have unlimited internet access now. Also, I've purchased a computer armoire for my bedroom. I just have to put it together. I have to finish putting together my tv stand first, though - I'm about 1/3 done with it. I'm hoping to have my new tv by the end of the week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Milkshake,

I have to admit, I have read posts here and there on your thread in the past. I'm planning on reading your threads from beginning to end. Your situation does sound very similar to mine. I think that there is a Chicago deep dish pizza with our names on it somewhere. What do you think? It'd be great to be able to rally behind each other in person. I'm not sure where you are in the 'burbs. I'm up north. I can always come downtown sometime, too, since you work there.

How did you pick your name, BTW? Every time I see your name, I feeling like buying a milkshake. I like banana.

Slammed1,

Welcome to MB. Your H definitely sounds like mine, too. It's actually pretty sad that there are other men out in the world that behave like my STBXH. I had a discussion once with my STBXH about escort services (since you mentioned them). He doesn't seem to believe that escorts are prostitutes. I claimed that they are - just more expensive. He got all bent out of shape about it. I mean REALLY bent out of shape. Why does he feel that he has to defend escort services?

I have a question for you, though. What plan are you in? Plan A? Plan B? What is it that you want? Do you want to save your M? I assume that you do, since you are here at MB.

Well, I hope you all have a good night. I think I'll be spending a little more time here now that I can spend an unlimited amount of time online. I need to catch up on some reading.

Good night,
svb
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/21/05 03:05 AM
It's good to "see" you, SVB. Glad you weren't on the train that crashed. The train wreck is the only news out of Chicago that I've read lately.

BTW, if you haven't seen my thread, I should be D'd on Monday, unless something comes up. Tonight, I feel good, but it's up and down.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/22/05 02:47 AM
Hello AD,

I've seen your thread. I can't believe how fast those 30 days are going by. Only 5 days left!

You sound good, despite everything. You should feel good - you've got your self-respect. For what its worth, I give you a lot of credit for sticking to your boundaries with your WW. I know that she had talked often about reconciling - and if that were my stbxh telling me the things that your stbx told you, I probably would have caved at some point.

I agree with the others on your thread that say that she would only want your M to continue as it was. Who knows, maybe it will take the actual D and REALLY being on her own for a while to get her to "wake up." (I wouldn't hold my breath, though) You could always get re-married if that ever came to be. (That's what my IC told me, too). In the meantime, you can just focus on becoming the best AD you can be -- for yourself and for your DD.

I hope you get some good sleep tonight. As for me, I'm going to take some NyQuil and go to sleep ASAP. I've got a sore throat and I think I'm getting a cold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/22/05 02:48 AM
Oh, you just now posted!
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/22/05 02:51 AM
SVB,

Thanks for the support. I also plan to go to bed ASAP - since I have to take my car to the shop tomorrow morning - hopefully be there at 7am when they open.

Good night. I hope you squash that cold before it gets the better of you.

-AD
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/22/05 02:44 PM
Hi SVB,

Working on a computer on the floor is painful. Ouch! Hope now that you have unlimited access, you can find something to put on your computer. You can always find something cute and reasonable at IKEA.

I work in the loop (near the Art Museum), and live in the western suburb. Do you work in the city too? I would love to get together, that would be fun. I noticed there is someone who works in the Sears Tower who was posting here as well.

My husband is really determined to divorce me. H apparently told his brother "Jesus told me to divorce her". Whatever - . After so many months, my heart should have gotten harder but it still hurts incredibly much to see how H has changed and does not love me anymore.

Here is my email address: mnt540@yahoo.co.jp

Hope we can hook up sometime soon!

Milk

P.S. By the way, I LOVE Oberwise' Strawberry Milkshake. Yummy!!!
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/30/05 06:02 AM
Milkshake,

I've sent you an e-mail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My husband is really determined to divorce me. H apparently told his brother "Jesus told me to divorce her". Whatever - . After so many months, my heart should have gotten harder but it still hurts incredibly much to see how H has changed and does not love me anymore.

I know how you feel. I've felt the same way. It does really hurt to realize that your H doesn't love you anymore. But you know what -- this is really going to sound strange -- it doesn't bother me as much anymore (at least not lately). I think that the pain is starting to lessen. I don't know if it's because I'm not thinking about him and us so much anymore and am focusing on myself and my future, or what. Maybe it really helps that my stbxh is now about 900 miles away and I don't have to deal with him and his I-could-care-less-about-you attitude on a regular basis.

I know that I will be just fine without him. I think that you will be just fine no matter what happens, too.

AD,

I can't believe that the day has finally come for you. I'll say it again - I think you sound great, despite everything. I don't blame you for taking some days off from MB and work. I've read about your projects, too - your yard, the sitting area. It feels good to do things for yourself for a change, instead of dancing around a selfish spouse, doesn't it?

As for me, my TV stand is finished, and I have my new TV! I got it yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have a date on Saturday, too. OK, it's not really a date - the cable guy is coming over on Saturday afternoon to hook everything up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

After that, my next project is going to be putting together my computer armoire.

Oh, and did I mention that I'll be flying back to Philly the weekend after next? We're going to sign and send in the final D paperwork.

Ok, time for sleep. zzzzz Good night.
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 09/30/05 11:31 PM
I've been doing some thinking.

It's amazing what some time can do to a person. I feel like I've reached a new phase in this whole break-up process.

I feel very different lately. First of all, I don't seem to be having those little doubts anymore. (ok, I know I've said this before, but you can believe me a little more this time) But I'm seriously not thinking much at all about stbxh and our past. I spend more time fantasizing about what a new relationship might be like. I spend even MORE time thinking about what I want to do in my life (in a positive way - as in, "ooh! what can I do that I've always wanted to do!" and not, "great, my M is over, what am I supposed to do now.")

I am starting to like being on my own. Don't get me wrong, if Mr. Right came along, I would be very happy, but it's not my all-consuming thought. If he never came along, I would still be ok. The same goes for kids.

I have even stopped wearing my wedding ring (starting 2 days ago). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> My plan was to wear it until I was officially divorced. I thought that taking my ring off meant that I was "available" for another relationship. I don't look at it now that I'm ready for another relationship. I look at it MORE now as meaning that I'm not holding on to the PAST anymore. Looking at that wedding ring every day was just a contant reminder of the past. I don't know if this makes any sense.

And finally, I definitely don't have thoughts of postponing my D anymore. I am anxious for it to be done with. Is that crazy, or what?

Ok, for the relationship/break-up experts - what phase is this that I am in? Is this a phase? Will I go back to having doubts again? I sure hope not. I'm a little worried about seeing stbxh again (next Thursday night already!). I hope that seeing him won't change my feelings.

I want to graduate soon.
Posted By: still seeking Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/01/05 12:04 AM
I've been doing some thinking.

I am used to that from you. As I recall, you are good at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


It's amazing what some time can do to a person. I feel like I've reached a new phase in this whole break-up process.

Good, because I was worried about you.


I feel very different lately. First of all, I don't seem to be having those little doubts anymore. (ok, I know I've said this before, but you can believe me a little more this time) But I'm seriously not thinking much at all about stbxh and our past. I spend more time fantasizing about what a new relationship might be like. I spend even MORE time thinking about what I want to do in my life (in a positive way - as in, "ooh! what can I do that I've always wanted to do!" and not, "great, my M is over, what am I supposed to do now.")

Thanks for saying that. Maybe your mom and I can relax now. At least a little bit.

When you stop looking back, and start looking ahead, it means you are in recovery.

This is good, just so you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I thought that taking my ring off meant that I was "available" for another relationship. I don't look at it now that I'm ready for another relationship. I look at it MORE now as meaning that I'm not holding on to the PAST anymore. Looking at that wedding ring every day was just a contant reminder of the past. I don't know if this makes any sense.

Makes complete sense to me. You should see me smile. You needed healing, and you are finally getting it.
Don't get me wrong, I am not happy about what happened. It's just that you have to make the best of it, and now it looks like you are.

And finally, I definitely don't have thoughts of postponing my D anymore. I am anxious for it to be done with. Is that crazy, or what?

Yeah, crazzzzzzzy. Good crazy. Once you know something must be, it might as well be finished.

Ok, for the relationship/break-up experts - what phase is this that I am in? Is this a phase? Will I go back to having doubts again? I sure hope not. I'm a little worried about seeing stbxh again (next Thursday night already!). I hope that seeing him won't change my feelings.

Seeing him may bring it all back. Those feelings won't last as long this time. Pray for help, and clarity.

I want to graduate soon.

Oh, you are not wanting to be one of those "students for life" I have read about. You could always change your major from Divorce 101 to Dating 101. I hear the advanced classes are interresting.

Teasing aside, I consider this good news. I really want to see you smile again, long term.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/01/05 01:20 AM
SVB,

You sound good! Nuf sed.

I'm sure the meeting with your H will be difficult, but it might not be as bad as you think it will be.

I hope you'll check in after you visit with your H and let us know how it went.

Yes, it does feel good to do things for myself - and for DD too - and looking ahead - for whoever turns up my driveway in my future life.

The sitting area is a gleam in my eye - not much more than that. My vacation is over, and I got a lot done on my various project - but no time for that yet.

I hope the cable guy is nice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't have a TV - well actually, I've got a 13in TV with a *VCR* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> in it, and I had the cable turned off because I never watch. I watch DVD's on my computer. But I'm looking forward to having a nice big TV (when I'm not so busy) to watch movies on.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/01/05 03:23 AM
Hi SS!

I am glad that you are here today. It's nice to "see" you. (As AD would say)

When you stop looking back, and start looking ahead, it means you are in recovery.

This is good, just so you know.

I was really hoping to hear that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and this...

Makes complete sense to me. You should see me smile. You needed healing, and you are finally getting it.

yeay! I'm healing!

Oh, you are not wanting to be one of those "students for life" I have read about. You could always change your major from Divorce 101 to Dating 101. I hear the advanced classes are interresting.

Too funny, SS! You always make me smile and laugh. Thanks for that.

I feel bad sometimes because I don't always reply to your posts like I should - and that goes for other posters here, too. But it doesn't mean that I don't value your posts. I think often about what you write. I hate to think that I might make someone feel ignored or not appreciated, or taken for granted. I've got to really work on that.
(After just writing that, I'm sure that I've seen you write that same thought on one of your threads, AD. Why do I always feel like I'm copying off of you or stealing from your threads? I'm sorry about that!)

SS, this is something that you posted that I've been thinking about....

I still want to hear how your trip went for the holiday. I hope you don't mind talking about it. The interaction you have with your family is important, and is a sort of a gage, though I admit, I like you, and your family.

How is the interaction w/my family a gauge? I'm just curious.

I ask to hear the way you describe things. You have a good sense of humor, and lots of wit. Hmmm, you do know that, don't you?

Thanks for saying that, too. No, I don't think that I really know that. Actually, a lot of the time I feel stupid and boring. Drucilla mentioned, too, once, that she thinks I'd be a hoot. It kind of shocked me, actually, that she said that. I don't see it.
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/01/05 03:40 AM
Hi AD!

Nice to "see" you, too - which I wasn't expecting. I thought you were taking a break from MB.

I hope the cable guy is nice.

You always make me smile and laugh, too. Thanks.

I don't have a TV - well actually, I've got a 13in TV with a *VCR* in it, and I had the cable turned off because I never watch. I watch DVD's on my computer. But I'm looking forward to having a nice big TV (when I'm not so busy) to watch movies on.

I don't think I ever told you, but I have a 13 in tv, too. I get one fuzzy channel on it. It doesn't even have a vcr on it. My new tv is a 32" LCD HDTV. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's very sleek. I feel bad for my 13in tv now. They're sitting right next to each other. Poor thing. I think I might put it in my bedroom and get a good antenna for it.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/01/05 03:48 AM
Quote
I feel bad for my 13in tv now. They're sitting right next to each other. Poor thing.

I'm laughing now!

It's mumbling under it's breath : "I have a Cathode Ray Tube. Do you? NOooo! All you've got is some stinking liquid crystals. Whoever heard of any kind of liquid being good to look at. baah But Cathode RAYS - man, that's cool - I've got a ray gun - no THREE of em. Hah!".

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/01/05 04:06 AM
Hi SS!

I am glad that you are here today. It's nice to "see" you. (As AD would say)


It's good to see you also, I don't think you realize that you really do have a wonderful personality. H was always telling you what was "wrong" with you. It colored your view of your self. I bet your IC discussed this with you. This was not a healthy relationship for you to be in.
Sorry, But you really are a delight to talk to.


Remember when you talk to me. I am not a professional, just a fellow traveler. I say what I think I see..... and I am happy if I help, but I don't have a license on the wall, and I don't certify anything.

Having said that, I do think you are looking ahead - which you have been afraid to do for quite sometime. I do take that as a very good thing.

Quote
and this...

Makes complete sense to me. You should see me smile. You needed healing, and you are finally getting it.

yeay! I'm healing!

So, how do you feel about it? Do you FEEL ALIVE now. Do you wake up on weekends looking forword to the days? Do you have things in your head for the next week, and the next?

What do you think?
I see a girl that is not nearly so depressed. How about you?

You always make me smile and laugh. Thanks for that.
I think I have told you this before - You are worth it.
I promise.
Really. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I feel bad sometimes because I don't always reply to your posts like I should - and that goes for other posters here, too. But it doesn't mean that I don't value your posts. I think often about what you write. I hate to think that I might make someone feel ignored or not appreciated, or taken for granted. I've got to really work on that.

Mostly I worry that you may be so down that you can't write because you are afraid of being a failure in what you write.
That is, you may think something like "I can't do this, it will be worthless anyway. I can't insult people by going on and typing anything today, so I'll just stay away."

I hope that is not it, because what you say is always interresting, and your personality makes people want to come visit your thread. Even if they don't know what to say, they read. Have you noticed?


Quote
SS, this is something that you posted that I've been thinking about....

I still want to hear how your trip went for the holiday. I hope you don't mind talking about it. The interaction you have with your family is important, and is a sort of a gage, though I admit, I like you, and your family.

How is the interaction w/my family a gauge? I'm just curious.


At one time your mother, and your brother were encouraging you to D. You wanted to save your M. It created a little bit of a gap where you didn't know what to say to them when you talked to them. If I were to sit and watch the interchange between you for a day, I think I could tell how much recovered you were by how you talked to them.

Much of it would be non verbal - I don't know if I can explain it with words.
How comfortable you were with the normal banter.
What you joined in on, and what you stayed away from.
The things you discussed when alone with either one of them.
What you do when your brother gives his wife affection - or she him.

Lots, and lots of signs - I would have liked to seen it.

Now, once I talk about it to you, it would color your post back to me. Had you written about what happened with no idea of what I was getting at, you would have given clues by what you said, and did not say.

I don't mean to analize you really, but I seek ways to help. The better I understand, the better I know what to say.

Does that help you understand where I am coming from?
Just go to any public place and watch people for 15 minutes. Watch the interchange between couples. You will see what I mean.

Actually, a lot of the time I feel stupid and boring. Drucilla mentioned, too, once, that she thinks I'd be a hoot. It kind of shocked me, actually, that she said that. I don't see it.

You see yourself thorugh a distorted lens fashioned from the comments of your H over the years.

I wish you could see yourself as Dru and I ( and AD) see you.

Now smile - someone with so much going for them ought to smile more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Besides, it's good for your face.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/02/05 04:55 AM
Hello SS and AD,

It's mumbling under it's breath : "I have a Cathode Ray Tube. Do you? NOooo! All you've got is some stinking liquid crystals. Whoever heard of any kind of liquid being good to look at. baah But Cathode RAYS - man, that's cool - I've got a ray gun - no THREE of em. Hah!".

Boy, you ARE an engineer, aren't you, AD! Most people I know don't know much about TVs. You should have seen me when I started looking for one 3 months ago. LCD? Plasma? HDTV? EDTV? Flat screen? Slim screen? Widescreen? If I get cable I need a what?? But after much reading, and many talks with my bro, I am fully edumacated now. I got the perfect tv for me. AND I paid way less than what I would have paid at Best Buy or Circuit City.

Speaking of my tv, too, my cable was installed today. The picture looks good! You'll be happy to know that I'm not glued in front of the new tv, though. I played with the tv for an hour or so and then left. I'm at my mom's right now. I've been glued in front of her tv instead. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> We ate Chinese food and watched Lifetime Television for Women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> At least I'm not alone.

It's good to see you also, I don't think you realize that you really do have a wonderful personality. H was always telling you what was "wrong" with you. It colored your view of your self. I bet your IC discussed this with you. This was not a healthy relationship for you to be in.

Thanks, SS, you know how to make a gal feel better. Yes, my IC discussed this stuff with me. After being with someone for fifteen years, though, I wonder how long it will take for the view of myself to change. I worry how it might affect any future relationship I might have. I also worry that I might find myself in a similar relationship. You would think that I would know better the next time around, and be more careful, but you never know.

So, how do you feel about it? Do you FEEL ALIVE now. Do you wake up on weekends looking forword to the days? Do you have things in your head for the next week, and the next?

What do you think?
I see a girl that is not nearly so depressed. How about you?

I do feel better. I have energy. I have hope. I just hope this lasts.

Does that help you understand where I am coming from? Just go to any public place and watch people for 15 minutes. Watch the interchange between couples. You will see what I mean.

Thanks for explaining it to me. I understand what you are saying. I wish I had told you more about what we did now.
Thank you anyway for the time you take to help me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope you guys have a great weekend.
Posted By: Orchid Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/02/05 06:14 AM
Quote
Quote
I feel bad for my 13in tv now. They're sitting right next to each other. Poor thing.

I'm laughing now!

It's mumbling under it's breath : "I have a Cathode Ray Tube. Do you? NOooo! All you've got is some stinking liquid crystals. Whoever heard of any kind of liquid being good to look at. baah But Cathode RAYS - man, that's cool - I've got a ray gun - no THREE of em. Hah!".

-AD

AD,
Gotta tell you that I love your sense of humor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

2 2 2 funny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SVB1,

So long as you can keep your wits and sense of humor about you, you will survive. U already are showing us that. Keep up the good work.

BTW, don't let AD around your little TV, he might try to 'rescue' it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.
Posted By: svb1 Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/03/05 04:20 AM
Hello Orchid,

Thanks for posting.

So long as you can keep your wits and sense of humor about you, you will survive. U already are showing us that. Keep up the good work.

Thank you. I'm trying. I've got a tough week ahead of me, though. I'm still hoping that it doesn't set me back.

BTW, don't let AD around your little TV, he might try to 'rescue' it.

There's no way that tv's getting away from me now.
Posted By: still seeking Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/07/05 11:11 PM
I don't know if you are home yet. You probably were not really excited about flying back, and stiring up memories. Paperwork, and signatures can be so - cold.

Let us know how things went, and how you are feeling.

Glad you have a weekend away from work. Hope it is relaxing.

Think some, write your feelings down. (In a private journal if you don't feel like sharing.) You will look back on this time and see your growth, and it will make you glad to see how far you will go from where you were.

This is not just related to you, and what you have been through, but it is good for us all. We all have a long way to go, you are not alone on this journey.

We - fellow travelers ...
We do well to help each other, for all of us need help at one time or another. It seems like a long road from where we are now. It won't seem so bad at the other end.

All the best to you this weekend.

SS
Posted By: milkshake Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/09/05 12:19 AM
Hi SVB,

I know you are in the East Coast now and taking care of the business. I really hope things were not as bad or depressing, but please come back and tell us about it. I am praying for you!

Milka
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/10/05 10:30 PM
Are you home yet, SVB?

Any news?

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: How're you doing, SVB? - 10/13/05 04:25 AM
Aw, c'mon, SVB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Are you alive, SVB? - 10/16/05 02:41 AM
I hope this absence means you are too busy having fun.

-AD
Posted By: milkshake Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/17/05 02:35 PM
are you there???
Posted By: svb1 Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/18/05 01:49 AM
Hello SS, Milkshake, and AD,

It has been really craaazzzzy around here. I honestly haven't peeked at this site since last Monday night. I was only home 2 nights last week. My new tv and my fish have been feeling neglected, too.

I got home late Monday night. Unfortunately, my best friend's brother died late that night, too. (he was estranged from the family, but still...) The wake was Thursday and the funeral was Friday. Then I had a wedding to go to on Saturday. (my brother's best friend) I've been at my mother's since Thursday - since everything took place around there.

Of course, because of the wedding, my brother and his family are in town until next Saturday. I've been able to spend time with them, too. They'll be over for dinner tomorrow night, too.

So, all in all, everything that has happened this past week (particularly my friend's brother's death - he was 42) has helped to put things in perspective for me. A D is certainly not the end of the world.

Needless to say, my signed divorce papers didn't get mailed out until today. So now, within approximately 2 weeks and 2 days, I will either receive my D decree in the mail, OR I will receive a letter from the court house requesting more information.

Should I start my own countdown?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/18/05 04:22 AM
SVB,

I'm sorry about your friend's brother. What a pity to die so young.

It's good to see you back - and you seem in good spirits too!

I'm glad you got all the paperwork taken care of. Of course, I'm sorry it came to this, but since it has, it's nice to get it done. Go ahead and start the countdown.

What did it feel like going to a wedding?

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/18/05 08:37 PM
I attended a funeral this morning - A former neighbor. He was 62 and we thought in excellant health.

It does set you to thinking.

SS will be traveling to visit his son in Arizona this week, and probaly won't be on line much.

God be with you S. May you have many happy thoughts.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/21/05 01:31 AM
Hello SS and AD,

I hope you have a great time visiting your son in AZ, SS. For me, it was nice to spend time with my family this past week. My mother and brother and his family came over Tuesday night. My nieces went swimming, and then we had a small feast in my little apartment. It always does me good to spend time with them. I don't think I'll be seeing them again until Thanksgiving weekend. My nieces also thoroughly schooled me on Neopets.

AD, you asked me how it felt to go to a wedding. (get ready for a long answer) It felt very strange. I'm not even sure if I can explain it. I was afraid that I would cry, but I didn't. There was a time, before I was married, when I don't think I cried at weddings. Actually, I'm having a difficult time remembering that far back, but I don't think I went to many weddings before I was married - I can only remember one for sure - and I know I didn't cry then. Maybe it didn't have any meaning for me then.

I think it changed for me once I got married. Ever since then, I would cry at weddings. I guess I had really learned what it meant to be in love and to be married. Then it was so touching to see two people promise, before God and family and friends, to love each other forever.
How can you not cry? (my stbxh always thought I was silly)

Well, I think I've changed again with my impending divorce. I honestly sat there during the ceremony, watching the bride and groom, and though thoughts such as, "do they really mean what they are saying up there? Are they taking it to heart?", "will their M last?", "who will stop loving the other first?", "will one of them cheat on the other?" It was almost a joke to me. How sad it that!? I honestly wish them the best, and I hated having those thoughts.

Maybe it will take finding the right man and falling in love again to get my old feelings back about marriage. I really DO believe in marriage. But how will I know if my future husband really feels the same about marriage as I do? I really thought that my stbxh felt the same as I did. Boy, was I wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'd be lying if I said that I'm not scared to get married again.

OK, well, there's your answer.

I still have to write out my play by play of my weekend w/ stbxh. Now there's something else that felt very strange. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Posted By: milkshake Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/21/05 04:50 PM
Hi SVB1. I am glad to know that you were strong enough to attend your friend's wedding. I certainly cannot even imagine attending one myself in the near future.

Yes, I wanted to know how your weekend with your STBXH went. It does not sound it was too bad, though.

It's good that your family is around. It always helps. Have a good weekend.

Milk
Posted By: svb1 Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/21/05 07:15 PM
Hello Milkshake,

I am glad to know that you were strong enough to attend your friend's wedding. I certainly cannot even imagine attending one myself in the near future.

I'm a little surprised, too, about being able to go to the wedding. I thought that I wouldn't be able to drag myself there, or that I'd be a basketcase while there. I think you might be ready to attend a wedding sooner than you think, too. You never know. I would have felt bad if I missed this wedding. This fellow was a childhood friend/neighbor of ours. He and my brother remained best friends for over 30 years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have a picture of the 3 of us together - it would be cool to post it here - but I don't know how.

As for my weekend w/STBXH, I'm going to try to post about it a little later - maybe tonight.
Posted By: svb1 Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/21/05 07:50 PM
Milkshake,

I thought of something else that helps to keep me from feeling sad... maybe it'll help you...(but don't read it if you still have hope of saving your M - I don't want to discourage you from fighting for you M, if that's what you really want)

Instead of thinking of my STBXH and our failed marriage, I dream about what a future, loving relationship might be like. What would I look for in a new man? What would I do differently this time around? How will we meet? etc. etc. Honestly, sometimes I think about it too much. Maybe it's silly, but it seriously helps me keep my mind off of sad thoughts. It makes me happy instead.

Even if I don't meet Mr. Right, I dream of other possibilities...

I could go to back to school (to law school, or to learn foreign languages, etc). OR
I could buy that townhouse that I've always wanted. OR
I could apply with my company to work overseas for a while.

I feel like a kid in a candy store sometimes.

What would you do, Milkshake?
Posted By: milkshake Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/21/05 09:33 PM
Hi SVB,

I actually do the same thing. I dream about this wonderful man that I can be with - he is strong, kind, absolutely mentally stable, had no addictions, does not smoke, and loves my son. I can daydream a lot. Only those moments, I can feel happy too. But then when I hear my son crying "I want my daddy, where is daddy?", it breaks my heart and my happy thought would crush.

But I know looking back all the time does not help. H chose to have a different life without me, there is nothing I can do and I should NOT want him back if he truly does not love me anymore.

Oh, I have to catch my train... I will talk to you later.

Milk
Posted By: white_daisy Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/22/05 12:41 AM
hey svb?
Quote
I feel like a kid in a candy store sometimes.

You made me smile....I still hope my marriage can someone be saved but that does not stop me from dreaming!

I was talking to a friend the other day and she was married some time back (D now) and is with a new man for a number of years now...She looked at me and said "he is not a perfect man, but he is the right man"....

I thought my H was the perfect man, but he may not even have been the right man...only time will tell...

Keep on dreaming! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Daisy
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Are you alive, SVB? - 10/22/05 06:33 AM
Quote
Instead of thinking of my STBXH and our failed marriage, I dream about what a future, loving relationship might be like. [...] Maybe it's silly, but it seriously helps me keep my mind off of sad thoughts. It makes me happy instead.

Even if I don't meet Mr. Right, I dream of other possibilities...

I could go to back to school (to law school, or to learn foreign languages, etc). OR
I could buy that townhouse that I've always wanted. OR
I could apply with my company to work overseas for a while.

I feel like a kid in a candy store sometimes.

It sound like you're doing great!

I feel the same way. I can distill it down to this :

I am alive! ... and I'm going to PROVE IT!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 I'm still alive - 10/26/05 02:53 AM
I figure it's about time I update this thread! I haven't been off of MB, I've been posting here and there on other threads. Just not here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm a little concerned about my D paperwork. I sent it out last Monday, and I still haven't received anything back in the mail. I had to send them the originals plus two copies to be time stamped and sent back to me. When I originally filed, back in May, I got my copies back in ONE DAY. I sent the stuff certified, so I suppose I can find out if it was received. Can you imagine if my paperwork got lost? I'd have to go back to PA again to have it all signed.

OK, now for my weekend with STBXH. It felt very, very strange. I flew in late on Thursday night, the 6th. STBX was there waiting for me in the airport. He lost a lot of weight. If he and I were in a competition on losing weight, he'd be the biggest loser! (my weight loss is going much slower than I'd hoped)

He was supposed to work from 8am to 10pm on Friday, be off on Saturday, and work 10am to 10pm on Sunday. As such, I made plans to go to the courthouse on Friday, have the paperwork signed w/STBX on Saturday, go to my friend's/ex-co-worker's house on Sunday, and drive in to work w/her on Monday (and leave on Monday evening)

Well, H informed me that his schedule got changed at the last minute. Instead, he worked Friday as planned, worked Saturday from 10 am to 10pm, and was off on Sunday. grrrrr
In the back of my mind I wondered if this change of schedule was really unplanned, or planned so that he would have minimal dealings with me. Even on Sunday, the day he was to be off, he went in to work for a few hours in the morning. (supposedly because it's SO crazy there) Oh well, who cares.

Friday went really well. I dropped STBX off at work and drove out to the courthouse to pick up the document that I needed. I was surprisingly painless. That night I ordered pizza and picked H up from work.

On Saturday morning, STBX had planned to have the cable guy come to install his cable service. But since he had to go to work (maybe the schedule change was unplanned) I told him to drive to work and I'd wait for the cable guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> H picked me up at lunchtime, and we drove to get the paperwork signed and notarized. I dropped him off at work and went back to the apartment. It was pouring out (it did ALL day), so I didn't feel like going anywhere else.

And what did I do at his apartment? You guys will be disappointed w/me. First, I balanced his checkbook. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> This was AT HIS request! See, I told you he wasn't very good at it! He hates to do it! He just doesn't have the patience. When he asked if I would do it, I just busted out laughing! But I felt a little bad for him, he seemed so desperate, so I said that I would. I figured that it would be the last time, anyway, so what the heck. It took me 3 hours to figure it all out. Then, again at his request, I learned how to use his new home theater system. He figured out most of it, but there were certain things, like how to turn on the Dolby Surround Sound and how to play his CDs in random order, that he couldn't figure out. He doesn't have the patience to read the manual either. Oh, and I also cleaned out his freezer, but that was (sort of) my fault. STBXH, knowing that I am a Diet Coke addict, bought me a case for the weekend. He put a few in the freezer on Thursday so that I'd have cold ones when we got back from the airport. But he forgot to take them out before he left and they exploded. ooops.

Saturday night I picked STBXH up from work, and we went out to dinner, as planned.

On Sunday, he went in to work from 8-11 am. He came back and we went out to have a late breakfast at a nearby diner. After that, he drove me to my friend's house in NJ, where we parted.

I know this is getting very long.

Like I said before, the weekend was very strange. It was strange to see STBX again. It was a little like seeing an old friend, but not. It was strange seeing our old stuff in his apartment. It might have been considered a very sad thing in the past (by me), but strangely enough, it wasn't.

I was positive the entire weekend. I didn't talk about us at all - I didn't bring up the past and I didn't talk about what could have been. No tears or doubts whatsoever. I was very business-like about the paperwork and the D. It really must have confused him. I was all, "let's get this over with." Actually, I even kinda had fun. We talked and laughed the times that we could spend together. I amazed myself even. Before STBX even knew that he would go into work on Sun. morning, he kept making plans for us. "Maybe we can get up really early on Sunday morning and drive out to Atlantic City before I drop you off at your friend's house." or "Maybe we can go out to breakfast and then go see a movie."

When he did drop me off at my friend's house, he got out of the car and we hugged goodbye. He said, "it's too bad we couldn't go to A.C., we're sooo close." All I said was, "I know." There was a little part of me that didn't want to leave him, but it had to be.

Later that night, when I was trying to fall asleep, I thought to myself, "we could have had a lifetime of going to Altantic City and to the movies and out to breakfast." I could have told him that when we parted, but maybe it's best that I didn't.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/26/05 03:14 AM
....and just when you thought I was done....

I forgot a couple of things.

When I explained to STBXH about the checkbook, I told him, "PLEASE be careful from now on. I know you're busy, but TRY to remember to write everything down. I'm not going to be able to do this for you anymore." Then HE said, "well, maybe I can make copies and send it to you." He said it half kiddingly, but somehow, I don't think he was.

Let's see, what was the other thing? Old age old age old age.... umm

Oh yeah. We slept in the same bed!! But it was clear that nothing was going to happen. There was nowhere else to sleep! He ended up with the loveseat of our set - too small to sleep on. Plus he's got a king size bed now. I don't think you could ever have seen two people sleep further apart in the same bed. It was kind of funny actually.

And finally, (I was debating whether I should post this or not) I found more stuff on his computer. That's how I know, too, that we are sooo done. And there was also a check written to the city for what appears to be a parking ticket - which tells me that he still goes and parks in the city for... whatever.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/26/05 03:45 AM
Now to reply to some people.

Milkshake, I can't tell you how sorry I am for everything that you're going thru. I can't imagine having to go through a nasty D like you are. Your H can't possibly have a heart if he's going to put you through that as well. Every day that goes by, I just get more and more amazed at what some people are capable of. I just don't understand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am thankful that, at least, my STBX and I didn't really have an issue with the division of our assets. As a matter of fact, after I left the east coast after our last weekend together, I found that he had stuck an envelope with $200 in it in my backpack for my plane fare. I was truly surprised.

I hope that your trip to visit your family does both you and your DS good. I hope that you get the comfort that you need there.

white_daisy, Im glad that I could make you smile. I am also glad that I haven't discouraged you from trying to save your M. That's the last thing that I would want to do on this board.

and as for this...
I was talking to a friend the other day and she was married some time back (D now) and is with a new man for a number of years now...She looked at me and said "he is not a perfect man, but he is the right man"....

thanks. You've given me hope. I know now that my STBX was definitely not the right man. Boy did it take forever to figure it out. I have hope that I can still find the right one. As for you, I sincerely hope that everything works out for the best for you.

And AD, yeah, it's great to be alive, isn't it? I kinda think I feel more alive now than I've felt in a long time.
Also, ever since I made that candy store comment, I've been feeling like actually going to a candy store. But I better not because it won't help me to lose weight.
Thanks for always being there... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I'm still alive - 10/26/05 05:14 PM
Hi SVB,

I've been gone awhile, glad to hear you are doing so well.

That visit with your H... wow. Cant balance a check book, cant figure out how to use a stereo, cant remember to take a coke out of the freezer... none of this is rocket science.

Do me a favor, next time get a smarter man, OK? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That may have been the root of many of your M troubles... he's just not mentally equipped to handle such a relationship. The superficial stuff he's ok at, but he cant handle the conflict intelligently. And have no illusions, that checkbook will be wrecked within a week of you leaving. People dont just change like that, overnight.

I also understand about the change in attitude, the relaxed feeling you have when together, now. As I had said, my exH and I hung around together after I asked for the D and he had moved out. I WAS much more relaxed, as the D WAS proceeding, we had some nice times. It's so stressfull planning a D, working yourself up to go it, re-hashing all the reasons over and over, so it's such a relief to have it done. I think my H was kinda Plan A'ing me, but his problems were so serious I never considered returning.

I'm glad you didnt actually sleep with him. I'd be worried about STD's, now that he's 'free'. It is nice you two could have a decent weekend.

You know, we marry these men because we DO see the nice stuff, we DO see the potential. It's a shame that we're either so naive, or that their so deceptive, that we cant see the TRUE image before committing.

And you know, I D'd my exH, with the HOPE of finding some happiness out there. I didnt have any guarentees, but I KNEW my life with him would continue to be miserable. I think alot of BS's need to get to that point... they ARE miserable, but they can have HOPE for future, HEALTHY relationships. I'd rather have HOPE alone than misery with a partner. Less housework, for one thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On another note, I'm SERIOUSLY considering going back to school, too! Getting the catalogues and everything! It's kinda exciting!

I'm glad you're doing well. Please take care - Dru
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/26/05 10:48 PM
Hi Drucilla!

It's nice to see you. Wow! You're going back to school! It is exciting, isn't it? It's a lot of work with a full time job, too. It also kinda takes a toll on your M. Keep that in mind. Sometimes I wonder if I hadn't gone back to school if things would have been different in my M. Most likely not, but I can't help thinking it sometimes.

I haven't taken any further steps in going back to school.
I'm not sure what I want to do yet.

I have some not-so-good news to report today. I checked the status of my certified mail on-line a while ago. My very important D documents have NOT been delivered. I have a sick, sick feeling in my stomach. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to go to the post office tomorrow. I don't know what they can do, though. What am I going to do if they are lost and never get delivered? I'm freaking out a little here. Why does this have to happen to my D paperwork? I should have planned my visit to PA very differently - to include delivering the documents to the courthouse in person.

svb
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I'm still alive - 10/26/05 11:00 PM
Hi SVB,

Sorry about the D papers. I cant say I'm surprised... seems to happen to many people here. Just when they think it's over, the paperwork gets lost, the courts reschedule... it's infuriating! Good luck, I hope they find them!

You know our MC has suggested college a few times. Although I expressed great regret in not finishing my degree (although it's not hurt my career or income, yet), I suspect he thinks I need something to keep my mind busy. I was recently reading in one of my Myers-Briggs books about how each type achieves Self Confidence, and my type needs growth and achievement. Maybe MC got this, too. I do feel stuck in a rut, I know it would be good for me on several different levels.

Again, good luck on the paperwork!! - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 04:26 AM
I read back a few pages tonight.

Now I should say I don't have anyting to report, and then sign off.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I see a few things.

1. People like you, and care what happens to you. Notice the posts you are getting. Notice how people care.

2. Your mind is moving on. Unless you are holding something back, you are making real progress with this.

3. The new home is getting familiar, and is starting to FEEL like home. The job is not as bad as it first seemed. Things are looking up.

4. Your faith in yourself is coming back. You like it.

5. Old age, Old age, Old age.

6. What was I going to say?

7. Oh Yes, when you do go to the candy store, get some for me, I'll pay you back, right after you balance my checkbook - if there's anything left in my account.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 05:38 AM
You're too funny, SS!

I'm glad to see you're back. How was your trip?

The new home is getting familiar, and is starting to FEEL like home. The job is not as bad as it first seemed. Things are looking up.

Yeah! How do you know? My place is really shaping up. It does feel more like home. The job is WAY better. Everything got re-organized - I have a new boss now and a new set of co-workers. The job went from downright miserable to outright pleasant. It's amazing.
I volunteered for a fundraiser for work last Sunday. It was a lot of work, but I had a blast. This Saturday I'm helping out my mom with a fundraiser for her church. Then I think I'm going to attend my own new church (that I've finally found) this Sunday for the first time. I'm beginning to have a life.

I also just received a surprise email from some old friends (a married couple that I went to high school/college with) here in the Chicago area. I haven't seen them since I've moved back to town and they want to get together. Maybe I'll try to convince them to go up to Wisconsin with me to go to the Jelly Belly warehouse tour. That's way better than a candy store - a candy WAREHOUSE!

I will get you a big bag of Jelly Belly Belly Flops if I go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 06:32 PM
Update on the D sitch-

The courthouse DID receive my paperwork. Apparently the USPS didn't scan the envelope upon delivery, which is why it didn't show up on-line as being delivered.

I suffered an anxiety attack for nothing.

Well, almost nothing. The courthouse informed me that there's a problem w/ the paperwork. I'm getting a problem notification in the mail. Hopefully it is something easy to fix that doesn't require me to go back to the east coast.

So now I have something new to stress about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I need that candy!
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 07:46 PM
HI svb,

In a hurry right now, but wanted to say I am really glad that you are doing great. Maybe a teence jealous too, but overall glad to hear that everything is looking up!


Be back later if I can,

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 08:52 PM
Jls!

Your're back! What happened to you! You vanished into thin air.

I've been wondering about you. Did your H move back in? How are things going? How are your kids and your animals?
Are you still bartending?

You have GOT to come up to Chicago. Do you like Chicago deep dish pizza? Do you like jelly beans? Maybe you and Milkshake and I can hang out sometime.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 10:01 PM
I have been back for awhile, just responding on other threads, Iville...

Yes, H is back, made lots of promises that he didn't keep. He meant well, I guess, perhaps he didn't think that I was serious about some of it. So, same ol, same ol...That is why I wasn't around and now in a funk again, but working on it.

I would love to come up sometime, or vice-versa. Where is milkshake from? I have seen her around a little, but don't really "know" her or her story.


Well, I applied for re-admission to the local university. I have my biology degree, was intending on going back for teaching...I still do not know what I want to be when I grow up! Teaching would be interesting (to say the least) and challenging, just won't pay the bills if I do end up D. Yes, I have a plan and H knows it, or at least most of it.

But then again, what will pay the bills? Masters degree, I don't think I wanna go there. I could get certified in Nuclear Med in a year or less, decent money, but no real interest there.

Anyhoo, Really glad to "see" you!

SS is right we/I care,
jls
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 10:06 PM
JLS,
I have been wondering about you too.
Are you doing any better emotionally, or just not talking about it much? Or, I missed it?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 10:13 PM
S,
I'm glad they got the papers - and I hope you can fix the error from home. Being finished will help you also.

It really does sound like life is better. I can feel you smile from here.

It seems like Dru is a little farther along the road than you, and she says it's a good place to be. Isn't it nice to get the word from someone that's been there.

Let me know how your new church feels. That's one of the things I have been prayiny about for you.

I'll tell the twins about the Jelly Belly tour - they may decide to move in with you after all. Think they'll both fit in that closet?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 10/27/05 10:17 PM
Oh,
And the trip was really fun. We didn't just drive there, we vacationed all the way down and back. Had a good time, and met a former MB'er for dinner while in Phoenix.

Son's family are doing well, in a new home. It's nice to spend time with family, and or friends.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 10/30/05 09:46 PM
The new home is getting familiar, and is starting to FEEL like home. The job is not as bad as it first seemed. Things are looking up.

Quote from SVB
Yeah! How do you know?


Because you are happier, and less stressed. More outgoing, more willing to talk. Less tired, .......... and because it just seems that way. :-)

How was church? Does it help?
Good weekend?
Reading any good books?
The new TV have any good programs, or same old stuff?

Fish report?

You do know we care, don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 10/31/05 06:20 PM
Hi SS!

How was church? Does it help?

I didn’t get to go to my new church as I had originally planned. I ended up staying with my mom all weekend, again. I was kinda guilted into it. I’ll be staying at my place next weekend, so I’ll go then. I’ll let you know how it feels.

Good weekend?

Decent weekend. I went to my mom’s fundraising shindig – “shindee” as she calls it – on Saturday. She seemed very happy there. It was nice to see her so involved with this. It keeps her busy and gives her a purpose – otherwise she’d be lonely and depressed.

I got home late last night, so I didn’t get as much done this weekend as I’d have liked. I’ve got laundry to put away, an apartment to clean, etc. My new tv and fish are still probably feeling neglected, too.

Reading any good books?

I’ve got a stack of them, but I haven’t touched them.

Fish report?

I’ve got to clean out their tank tonight. Somehow I’ve got to learn how to clean out their tank without getting water all over myself. I’ll be covered in dirty fish water.
Lenny’s still not growing, but her tank-mates are getting bigger than ever. It’s still a mystery to me.

Thanks for asking, BTW. I know you guys care.

I’m glad you had a nice time with your family. I had a long talk with my brother yesterday. I mentioned that I’m off for Veteran’s Day, so he suggested that I come down to visit again. I don’t know if I will, though. I haven’t decided. They’ll be coming up for Thanksgiving, so it’s not like I won’t be seeing them any time soon.

I'm glad they got the papers - and I hope you can fix the error from home. Being finished will help you also.

I still haven’t received the problem notification in the mail. Maybe I'll get it today. I’d like to know what needs to be fixed! I’m going to be feeling very anxious until this is all settled!

I'll tell the twins about the Jelly Belly tour - they may decide to move in with you after all. Think they'll both fit in that closet?

I tell you what – they can sleep in my bedroom and I'll sleep in the closet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jls,

You’re going back to school, too! It seems like everybody’s going back to school. I know how you feel about being unsure about what to do.

The Nuclear Med. field!? How weird! That’s actually something I’m kinda familiar with! One of my old professions, I guess you could say – but more of the technical side than the clinical side. Maybe I’ll get to tell you about it someday. (I'm sure you can hardly wait)

Yes, H is back, made lots of promises that he didn't keep. He meant well, I guess, perhaps he didn't think that I was serious about some of it. So, same ol, same ol...That is why I wasn't around and now in a funk again, but working on it.

I’m sorry that you’re having a hard time. Have you guys made any progress at all? Have you updated your thread with the details?
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/02/05 06:24 AM
Hi BACK!!!

I didn’t get to go to my new church as I had originally planned. I ended up staying with my mom all weekend, again. I was kinda guilted into it. I’ll be staying at my place next weekend, so I’ll go then. I’ll let you know how it feels.

Rats, I was hoping she would learn, and leave you alone.

Lets practice again (grin) "Mom, thanks but I have other plans. Nice of you to offer, but see you later."

"Gee mom, you are so nice to invite me, but I already made up my mind to stay here, and get some things done. Thanks."

You can write better ones than I can, because you know her, and you know what she usually says, and you know how you usually answer. So, write one yourself, and practice it with variations - do the practice in front of the mirror. Smile when you say it, and say it with enthusiasm.
Good weekend?

Decent weekend. I went to my mom's fundraising shindig – “shindee” as she calls it – on Saturday. She seemed very happy there. It was nice to see her so involved with this. It keeps her busy and gives her a purpose – otherwise she’d be lonely and depressed.

My guess is that she is lonely and depressed sometimes in spite of her involvement. But, glad to see she is busy and being busy helping others is the best busy. I'm glad you went too. I hope it lifted your spirits.

I got home late last night, so I didn't get as much done this weekend as I’d have liked. I’ve got laundry to put away, an apartment to clean, etc. My new tv and fish are still probably feeling neglected, too.

Well, the fish are important, but I don't feel bad for the TV at all. Darn contraptions.
( I don't watch much, it takes up so much of the time I could use for eating candy, and sleeping.)

I asked about the books to see how your time is going. You are still not getting quite enough sleep?



I’ve got to clean out their tank tonight. Somehow I’ve got to learn how to clean out their tank without getting water all over myself. I’ll be covered in dirty fish water.
Lenny’s still not growing, but her tank-mates are getting bigger than ever. It’s still a mystery to me.


Maybe Lenny already had a visit from Mr. Carp, and her size was fixed permanently.
See - "A fish out of water" by Helen Palmer.

I wondered if you can get a small pump - maybe a pond pump or an evaporative cooler pump or something like that to help clean out the tank. Something small, and cheap. It would need some hose too, but that usually isn't too expensive.


I’m glad you had a nice time with your family. I had a long talk with my brother yesterday. I mentioned that I’m off for Veteran’s Day, so he suggested that I come down to visit again. I don’t know if I will, though. I haven’t decided. They’ll be coming up for Thanksgiving, so it’s not like I won’t be seeing them any time soon.

It sounds like you have plenty to do, don't be afraid to say what you think. "Hey bro, thanks for the invite, but I think I'll stay here, and see you at Thanksgiving time."

If he won't leave you alone, throw in something about your boy friend and a hot date.
Ha, Ha, just kidding. I know the paperwork isn't done yet.

Mostly I wanted to say something about a pump for cleaning the tank. Some nights I talk a lot.

So glad work is going better. I was worried about that for you.

What ever happened to your former "best friend?" The one from your earlier school life?

Ok, Ok, I really am going to quit now.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/05/05 06:40 AM
Hi SS,

Rats, I was hoping she would learn, and leave you alone.

I think she's trying, but she struggles sometimes. She means well -- she tells me that I need to focus on myself now and be happy. But when I try to do that (if it's not around her) I think she gets a little disappointed.

For instance, I've told her something along these lines...

Lets practice again (grin) "Mom, thanks but I have other plans. Nice of you to offer, but see you later."

Then she says "that's nice, but (frown), gee, you have more plans now than when you were married."

I have to remind her that I'm trying to move on and have/build a life. Not everything I do has to involve her. (I didn't tell her the last part - my brother has, though, in the past) Sometimes I wonder if she wants me to fill the void in her life that was left when my father died.

I'm trying.

I wondered if you can get a small pump - maybe a pond pump or an evaporative cooler pump or something like that to help clean out the tank. Something small, and cheap. It would need some hose too, but that usually isn't too expensive.

I have a ten gallon tank. It has an under-gravel filter. It also has another filter/pump that I added separately. I try to change 50% of the water every week to two weeks while vacuuming the gravel using a vacuum hose thingie. My problem is that the hose gets away from me far to often. Everything gets a shower - mainly myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

What ever happened to your former "best friend?" The one from your earlier school life?

This is the friend that lost her brother a few weeks ago. We talk pretty often. We're getting together on Sunday afternoon. She has a new love in her life and she is very happy. Actually, ga ga is a better word. They spend a lot of time together. Do you want to hear something funny, though? She calls me for advice on her R! I tell her, "HELLO! I'm getting a D, are you sure you want advice from me?" She still does. I've got her reading HNHN and LB.

I have a couple of updates, too.

I received the problem notice (regarding my D papers) in the mail yesterday. There are 2 problems - one is easy to fix and as for the other, I have no clue what they are requesting. I decided to call a law office in PA to have them fix everything. They told me that it wouldn't be difficult to fix and would cost me around $200. I've already sent them everything. I just want this to be done right and, more importantly, just DONE.

I spoke w/STBXH last night and today regarding the paperwork. He'll foot half the bill. He sounds horrible. He's got a bad cold or flu. He had a fever last night. He still doesn't seem to be too happy. He's working more than ever. He complained a lot about it. Maybe he's unhappy because he doesn't have time to go to the city to play. Oh well, it's not my concern anymore.

Also, I've got my eye on a gorgeous townhouse. I looked at this townhouse complex months ago, as well as many others, but I've stopped looking since I'm so unsure about what I want to do.
But I got a call the other day that the prices dropped tremendously - for the winter, I imagine. I drove by and looked at them again. I've got to crunch some numbers.

Of course, if I decide to buy a place and settle down, I'll probably have to give up the idea of a career where I travel the world in international espionage - or anything similar.

Have a great weekend, SS.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/05/05 07:14 AM
You have a great weekend too. I'll try to prevent AD from getting bored while he is here visiting.

You know, it's hard to say no to someone you love. It sounds like you are on top of it though.

Merry Christmas, and Happy New year.
(for last year, I am always behind.)

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/05/05 07:28 AM
Thanks.

I'm sure AD won't get bored. But if he does, you can tell him to update his thread.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/09/05 02:50 AM
I just got off the phone w/STBXH a while ago. He called to tell me that "The Amazing Race" is going to be on tonight. It's a 2 hour episode tonight. This is the show that we always watched together - and if he had to work, I would record it for him. Neither one of us has really been following it this season - but he called to tell me anyway. ?? strange.

He sounds much better - apparently what he had was strep throat.

I then proceeded to tell him a little too much about myself. (maybe I'm too open and honest - I just blurt out everything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm still amazed that I was able to keep most -ok, some- of my snooping secrets)

I told him about the townhouse that I'm looking at. (but I didn't tell him that I've already been pre-qualified for the loan - if I choose to buy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
I also told him about my thoughts on working overseas - and about a job in particular that I might apply for. Of course, I told him that I don't know if I want to buy a place OR move overseas OR do both, if I can. He says I can do both. I could always rent out my place. I don't know.

It sure sounded to me as if he wanted to buy a place, too, AND apply for a similar type job.

Sometimes I worry that I'm giving him too much information about myself. Maybe I should let him wonder. At the same time, though, it makes me feel better to let him know that I have a life, and that I'm fine, and that I AM moving on without him.

And finally, I let him know that the lawyer has already finished our paperwork. I should have it by next week.

Maybe he really called to find out the status of the paperwork - without having to ask - since I blurt out everything anyway. I asked him, "Why did you call me again? Did you call me to find out about the paperwork?? He said, "no, I called to tell you about the Amazing Race." I said, "oh yeah, that's right."

Who knows.
Posted By: jlseagull Re: I'm still alive - 11/09/05 03:15 AM
Hey svb,

I was typing a response slowly on another thread, and finally got done, and here You are!

Did I tell you before that I am a little jealous of you. You seem to be doing so well. I still feel STUCK. Yes I do have a "plan", but for the moment, still stuck..

Your STBXH has never ceased to amaze me. Calling you about a tv show?!! I dunno, but really who cares? I think that as much as he wanted his freedom, he does not want to really let go either.

Yeah, I am a blurter too. If I could keep a secret, esp a snooping one, I would have gotten a lot more information. I should post that more often to Newbies who are questioning about a possible A. Haven't really felt like helping anyone, actually just don't think that I can at this point tho!! yoooHOO, Oh people listen to me, the ultimate idiot..at least where my M is concerned.

Did I miss about the job overseas before, or did that just come up. Now that would be exciting!

Kep up the great work svb, and keep us informed. I never have been able to get excited about that fish of yours tho. Our cats eat them sometimes...

That reminds me of a funny story about my daughter when she was about 6. We had already been thru about 5 bettas (of course just replaced so she didn't know). Rally was the fish's (all of them) name, I will never forget. Well, he passed into that ocean in the sky AGAIN and I decided that it was time and she could learn about life and death. OOooh boy, what a mistake. She cried for HOURS that night (and much of that whole week)...I tried to comfort her and she said to me,"Mom, I don't think that you are that upset. You aren't crying and how could you NOT CARE?". I was speechless for a minute (long time for me) and finally said "Well, honey, Rally and I just weren't that close." -- I mean for goodness sake, it was a FISH. A year later I spent big bucks fencing in the yard so her pup wouldn't get run over- I did not want to go THERE!
And then my son, probably about the same age..well when one of his fish died, I didn't know that big Sissy told him that it went on a trip. He came downstairs about a week later and was crying. When I asked him what was wrong, he sobbed "Sissy said that my fish went on a trip and I DON'T think he's coming BACK!". It was all I could do not to chuckle, at least not in front of him.

Take care svb, but it sounds like you are doing that!

jls
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/09/05 05:05 AM
Did I tell you before that I am a little jealous of you. You seem to be doing so well. I still feel STUCK. Yes I do have a "plan", but for the moment, still stuck..

Don't be jealous! Hey, you have a husband and a family and a chance still that everything will work out. You also have more animals than just fish! Maybe I'M jealous!

I'm sorry that you feel stuck, though.

Your STBXH has never ceased to amaze me. Calling you about a tv show?!! I dunno, but really who cares? I think that as much as he wanted his freedom, he does not want to really let go either.

Yeah, it's really bizarre to me. I don't understand. I've been back from the east coast for about a month now. This is only the 3rd time we've spoken since I've been back. The 1st time I called him about our auto insurance (expired end of last month). Then he tried to call me about a week later. He left me a message saying that he had a question. We played phone tag for a while and ended up never speaking. Then I called him last week about the D paperwork - Thursday and Friday (but I count it as 1). Now the 3rd time we speak he's calling me about a tv show?

Yeah, I am a blurter too. If I could keep a secret, esp a snooping one, I would have gotten a lot more information. I should post that more often to Newbies who are questioning about a possible A. Haven't really felt like helping anyone, actually just don't think that I can at this point tho!! yoooHOO, Oh people listen to me, the ultimate idiot..at least where my M is concerned.

I probably could have found out more information, too. Do you still feel like you have to snoop? I should post to Newbies, too, but I don't feel like I have much to offer, either, most of the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did I miss about the job overseas before, or did that just come up. Now that would be exciting!

It was something that was always at the back of my mind. But there is one job opportunity in particular that is new. I haven't decided if I should apply or not. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try.

When I tell my friends and family of my interest to go overseas, they tell me I should go. What are they trying to say? Do I smell??

No, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> they just want to come visit me! Even STBXH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I never have been able to get excited about that fish of yours tho. Our cats eat them sometimes...

Poor Lenny. My friends (the married couple) that came over on Saturday told me that she's got Homer Simpson eyes (buggy). I haven't decided if they're welcome here anymore. Also, I told them that I bought 2 fish when I bought Lenny -(originally)Lenny and Squiggy - but Squiggy died within a week. Since my 2 new fish don't really have names yet, they suggested Joanie and Chachi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That reminds me of a funny story about my daughter when she was about 6. We had already been thru about 5 bettas (of course just replaced so she didn't know).

My brother and I had a pet turtle when I was about 5 or 6. He "ran away." For the longest time, I couldn't figure out how a turtle could "run away." They're so slow, my parents should have been able to catch him.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/10/05 05:21 AM
Not sure if AD was bored. I wasn't, he is fun to travel with.

You two girls are fun to listen to. Hope you don't mind me evesdropping.

Things are going well? And Yes, I mean both of you.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/10/05 07:43 PM
Hello SS!

You are always welcome here - even if you make fun of Lenny (or me).

I'm glad you had a good weekend. I knew AD was going to visit you, but somehow I didn't realize that you were going to travel all weekend. I'm sure AD wasn't bored either.

I had a good weekend, too. My friends came over Saturday (as mentioned above). We had a lot of laughs. Then on Sunday, I went to see the Blue Man Group with my friend (from childhood). Very strange show - but very good!

I also went to my new church. It felt good to go, but I have some concerns, too. Hopefully I'll figure it all out over time.

My other concern for the moment is whether I should purchase that home or not. Although I've had my eye out for a place for a while, this kind of came up suddenly. I'm tempted - it's very nice, and I can afford it. I'm only a little afraid because I've already been thinking about changing jobs after a year or so (or sooner). I came into this job, as you know, with a severe pay cut, and knowing that it would only be temporary.

Maybe I shouldn't rush into anything. I'm not even D'd yet, officially. I guess I just have this desire to have something permanent, something MINE - something that can't leave me!

I'm just scared that if I don't do this, I'll get depressed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'll stop talking now. None of this is M related.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/10/05 10:00 PM
Hi S,
It's always nice to visit your thread.

You are always welcome here - even if you make fun of Lenny (or me).

I might tease you, but I won't ever make fun of you, or Lenny.

After spending all this time trying to build you up, it would be foolish and cruel to make fun of you. If it ever sounds like I am doing that, call me on it, and I'll explain, because I won't ever do it on purpose.

I'm glad you had a good weekend. I knew AD was going to visit you, but somehow I didn't realize that you were going to travel all weekend. I'm sure AD wasn't bored either.

AD got in about 3 AM Sat Morning, and we let him sleep in. (Though he wasn't past 9 I think.) Sat is pancake day at our house (the twins insist) and we had breakfast then got ready for a bike ride between here, and Zion Park. That wore us out, and so we went for a late lunch. (AD'S treat, I told you he was a gentleman!) After that, we toured Zion Park. The tunnel, a short hike, view points, and so on. Got home after dark, tired, but happy.

Sunday was church. In the evening we had some family over, and played scrabble, and Apples, to Apples. AD is fun to spend time with. He has a great sense of humor, and he is smart. All my family who met him liked him. I'm sure Lenny would like him too.

Monday (after I went to work for a few hours) we headed out to the Grand Canyon. The remote parts, the parts few people ever see. I got us lost a few times, but he was a good sport about it. (I seldom go there either, it had been a long time since I visited a few of these places.) We finally camped for the night about 8:00 PM. After dinner, we built a camp fire, and talked until almost midnight. It was a nice evening. We took a walk, looked at the stars, talked some more, and went to bed. Thinking I would give him a taste of the old west, I threw a tarp over him, and let him try to sleep. (OK, there were sleeping bags involved too.) I hope he did sleep well, he said it has been a few years since he camped out. I slept well, it is a regular thing for me.

He was up first (such disipline) - I am so lazy when camping. We got up at close to first light, and took some photos. The sun peeked out for a few minutes, but then setteled in behind the clouds. Not be best for photos, but it was still a pretty place.

After breakfast, we traveled around to various sights near the canyon. The last place we visited was Tuweep, a canyon lookout. AD was such a good sport, and never even complained about my driving. We did 324 miles. About 304 of it on dirt roads, never crossing pavement. Parts of the west are still wild.

I'll do pictures one of these days on Graycloud's campfire thread. You can peek if you want.

I had a good weekend, too. My friends came over Saturday (as mentioned above). We had a lot of laughs. Then on Sunday, I went to see the Blue Man Group with my friend (from childhood). Very strange show - but very good!

So glad you had fun !!! Also glad you are spending time with your friend. I hope she "gets it" and helps, not hurts.

I also went to my new church. If felt good to go, but I have some concerns, too. Hopefully I'll figure it all out over time.

Glad for the good parts, sorry for the bad. Over all it helped?

My other concern for the moment is whether I should purchase that home or not. Although I've had my eye out for a place for a while, this kind of came up suddenly. I'm tempted - it's very nice, and I can afford it. I'm only a little afraid because I've already been thinking about changing jobs after a year or so (or sooner). I came into this job, as you know, with a severe pay cut, and knowing that it would only be temporary.

Maybe I shouldn't rush into anything. I'm not even D'd yet, officially. I guess I just have this desire to have something permanent, something MINE - something that can't leave me!


Most things I have read say that if you will be there under a year, it';s not worth it as far as the money goes.

You have probably studied all the same things.
There are money reasons, and there are emotional reasons. If you want it, you can get it. You don't need to feel bad about it either. Remember, no one will tell you that you are stupid, or crazy. We won't, because it's not true. You know that - but it's still hard sometiems, I can tell. If owning a home would help your state of mind, then it's a good thing. I would be concerned about ease of resale. If you are going to move, it would hurt if it didn't go through for 6 months, or if you lost money on a quick sale. Weight the pro's and con's and if you can live with the con's then do it if you want. Dont' be afraid - your dad IS right about what kind of cookie you are. Trust yourself.

I'm just scared that if I don't do this, I'll get depressed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If you can do it, and still save a little, then you can still be ready for job offers, or whatever your plans might be. Examine those dreams again. It may be that some part of you wants a rest. If so, take one. It's OK. It really is.

I'll stop talking now. None of this is M related.

I think it's recovery related, which IS marriage related - and look at the title of this section of MB. GENERAL QUESTIONS II.

Your thoughts, and feelings are important.
Always will be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/11/05 01:44 AM
I might tease you, but I won't ever make fun of you, or Lenny.

I know you won't. I know you only tease.

Your weekend sounded much more fun than my weekend - and my weekend was fun.

I was at the Grand Canyon with STBXH and his favorite sister (and her husband) once for a day. I was very disappointed. The canyon was filled with clouds and we couldn't see a thing. There was one moment when one little section cleared and we could see a little. But all the tourists flocked there to take pictures.

We didn't do the Brady Bunch thing where we went down into the canyon and camped. I'm trying to remember what happened on the Brady Bunch. Didn't Bobby and Cindy get lost? I'm glad that AD didn't get lost. You were a very good host. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So glad you had fun !!! Also glad you are spending time with your friend. I hope she "gets it" and helps, not hurts.

She "gets it" now. It was just that one comment that she made long ago that kind of stung. But I think maybe I was just being too sensitive.

She feels horrible about everything that I've been through. She says she gives me a lot of credit. We had a long conversation once after I first moved here where I told her everything that I had been through w/ STBXH. She started crying and it really surprised me. She was horrified at everything that had happened, and she said she felt bad because she couldn't/didn't support me during that time. But I told her that I didn't tell her OR my family what I was going through. I always had the hope that things would get better and I wouldn't have to.

Anyway, my whole point is that she totally understands now why I am D'ing and she agrees w/me.

And like I mentioned before, she asks ME for advice on HER R, so I guess she can't think TOO poorly of me. She calls me "O Wise One." I wouldn't say that exactly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think that "O Wise One" should be reserved for SS only. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Glad for the good parts, sorry for the bad. Over all it helped?

Yes, over all, it helped. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't necessarily say that there were bad parts. But I don't know if I can explain it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Let's see... and as for the house? I think I'm going to put it out of my mind - for now. I think maybe it's too soon to do anything. I don't know why I'm in such a rush to do things. I'm generally a pretty patient and non-impulsive person. It did take me about 4 MONTHS to buy a tv, afterall, so I suppose I can wait at least a year for a house.

I think maybe I should wait to see how everything plays out during this next year.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/14/05 06:44 AM
Hi !
Busy weekend?

Kept dry when cleaning the tank this time?

Your weekend sounded much more fun than my weekend - and my weekend was fun.

We did have a good time - and the twins asked how it would be living where AD lives. One of these days I'll have to take them around and visit everyone, and get it out of their systems.

I was at the Grand Canyon with STBXH and his favorite sister (and her husband) once for a day. I was very disappointed. The canyon was filled with clouds and we couldn't see a thing. There was one moment when one little section cleared and we could see a little. But all the tourists flocked there to take pictures.

We had clouds - overcast - both days. I wish it had been sunny for AD to take pictures, but no such luck. The ones we did take are OK, but not the deep colors you get in early morning, and late eveing sun. So sorry your experiance was not the best - but if you ever come again, I'll try to have sun on those days. (Ha, like I can effect the weather.)


We didn't do the Brady Bunch thing where we went down into the canyon and camped. I'm trying to remember what happened on the Brady Bunch. Didn't Bobby and Cindy get lost? I'm glad that AD didn't get lost. You were a very good host. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AD didn't get lost, but I took the wrong road more than once. I confess I was a better conversationist than guide, but we did get back safely. I remembered general areas, but not the exact place to turn - once, or twice (or 8 or 10 times - but it all runs together in my mind.)


On your friend:
She "gets it" now. It was just that one comment that she made long ago that kind of stung. But I think maybe I was just being too sensitive.

How could you not be when you were in the middle of all that pain? Well, it is better now, and that is a good thing.


And like I mentioned before, she asks ME for advice on HER R, so I guess she can't think TOO poorly of me. She calls me "O Wise One." I wouldn't say that exactly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think that "O Wise One" should be reserved for SS only. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you are wise - and- I could quote your dad for a second opinion. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?? You should really talk to the twins, they could straighten you out in a hurry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


On Church:
Yes, over all, it helped. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't necessarily say that there were bad parts. But I don't know if I can explain it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So, you had to be there?

Let's see... and as for the house? I think I'm going to put it out of my mind - for now. I think maybe it's too soon to do anything. I don't know why I'm in such a rush to do things. I'm generally a pretty patient and non-impulsive person. It did take me about 4 MONTHS to buy a tv, afterall, so I suppose I can wait at least a year for a house.

Keep thinking about it - if you should buy it, you will become more sure, and if not, you will know that too. Right is right, even after time passes. You'll know.

I think maybe I should wait to see how everything plays out during this next year.

One of the things I really like about you is that you have passion, but you temper it with wisdom.

I think STBX is crazy. I bet AD agrees with me.

Anyway - Passion - Life is meant to be LIVED, but....... we need to keep it within the bounds the Lord has set if we want long term happiness, and the joy of knowing we did things the right way. We grow into it - it doesn't come all at once.

I see you getting there, and I hope you see it too. Again, don't think your dreams are over with. Dream new ones, and make them come true. Dont' be shy about living your life in the direction you want it to go.

Always believe in yourself. Join the rest of us that already do.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/24/05 01:37 AM
Know things are still tough sometimes. Hope you have a good weekend.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/24/05 08:12 AM
Hi SS,

Yeah, things are a little tough sometimes. I've been feeling a little down lately. Maybe "down" is a little bit too strong of a word. Overall, I think I'm still doing pretty well. I can't put my finger exactly on what it is. Maybe it's because of the holidays coming up. Maybe it's because of the cold and gloomy weather we've been having here. The wind is howling outside right now and I am c-c-c-c-cold.

It's not because of STBXH, though. I still don't think too much about him or our M anymore. I guess I must have officially lost all of my love for him. It's about time!! .....and yet it's sad.

As an update....

I finally received my (corrected) D paperwork from the lawyer on Monday. There are 2 documents that I need to send to the courthouse. STBXH has to sign one of them. I mailed him both documents today. He will sign and then forward them to the courthouse.

This whole D process is taking a lot longer than I'd like. I feel like I need to have all of this behind me. I was sort of hoping that we'd be D'd by this Saturday (our 11th anniversary). But now I'm hoping maybe by the end of the year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Once STBXH sends off the paperwork, it should be another 2 weeks before I receive the divorce decree in the mail. (either that or another problem notification)

Sometimes I wish that time would just speed by. I'd like to snap my fingers and be 6 months in the future. That way I'd be much further away from all of the pain and much further into personal recovery and healing. I never thought as an adult that I would want time to go by so quickly!!

I hope you have a happy Thanksgiving and a great weekend.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/24/05 08:37 AM
Oh, and STBXH called me on Monday night. Almost 2 weeks exactly since he last called. Last time he called to tell me about that tv show. Monday he called to ask me where he could find and example of a "form Christmas letter." ??!! So I guess he's planning on sending a Christmas letter to everyone this year. I wonder if I'm going to get one. I'd be curious to see what he has to say about everything that happened this past year.

Honestly, I still think he just calls to see what is going on with the D. He never specifically asks, but I tell him.

I wonder if the calls will stop once the D is final. Or maybe he sincerely wants to be just "friends."

Who knows.
Posted By: white_daisy Re: I'm still alive - 11/24/05 04:14 PM
svb1...

Are you in Plan B? or just doing the D now?

I am curios...will you send him or his family a Christmas card?

I am wondering if I should....

Daisy
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/24/05 08:11 PM
Hi WD!

No, I am not in plan B. I was in plan B for a while, but I didn't do it very well. I let STBXH home after he told me that he thought that our M was worth working on. (after only about 6 or 7 weeks) However, he didn't work on anything when he came back.

After a few months, I overheard him tell his BIL that he wanted to be ALONE - he didn't want to be M anymore. It was at that point that I decided to talk to him about a D. He didn't have the guts to tell me himself that he wanted a D. I was done trying to save my M. I brought it up, and he gave me no fight whatsoever. He had no tears, no doubts, no remorse, no regrets - ever. I think that's what hurt me the most. I made it easy for him, and that made him happy. He had NO love for me.

I'm strictly in plan D now. I have no more hope for my M. I hate to say it... but I think I'm better off without him. Now I look forward to the day that I will find a man who will truly love me and value me -- as much as I will love and value him.

I'm not saying that the situation is the same for you. I'm not at all suggesting that you D your H. I think that there is still hope for you. The more I think about it - and read your thread - the more I think you should call the Harleys. They will gather all of the info on your situation, and they will come up with a custom plan just for you. They can generally do that for you in one session. They are the experts - they will know what is best for you to do.

As for the Christmas card, I will probably send him one - this year. I can't imagine sending him a card for the rest of my life, though.
Posted By: white_daisy Re: I'm still alive - 11/25/05 03:06 AM
svb... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I guess we never know if the situation is hopeful or not....

I tell you when H left I was still hopeful. I wish I had done many things differently, but I could not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I was hurt and in so much pain that I could not function rationally and I was not capable of acting any differently. At some point H did suggest moving back in and living in the guest bedroom. He said this in the last MC session we had. When the counsler asked me what I thought of that....I said the trueth, that it was painful and I did not know how I could live like that.....I have regretted it. There is many things I could have said differently....However, part of me knows that if he changed his mind so quickly about that, then he most likely did not want to move back in anyway, was probably still uncertain about what he wanted, etc...and would have probably left again and left me with more pain.....Besides, at the time I was still an emotional mess and I had not learned much...now I have learned so much and I know what I want in life, what I want to change, what I need to do in a R to make it loving, intimate and make it grow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...I did not know any of that in July....well I knew very little... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway I don't know what my point was <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />....I guess what you said about your H moving back in just to leave again triggred this for me....

I am so sorry you had to deal with that....I think false recoveries are so painful and I hope I don't have to deal with that.....it just would set me back....


Now I look forward to the day that I will find a man who will truly love me and value me -- as much as I will love and value him.

That is good to hear....I guess I am still not done with my R and I do fear the next step... I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be out there. I don't want to start dating again. Right now I just don't want to meet man and go through the beginning where you don't know if the OP is at all serious or not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />....but then if I don't want to be alone I'll have to jump on that wagon at some point....I could just be experiencing fear right now....I'll probably be ready at some point...


I think that there is still hope for you. The more I think about it - and read your thread - the more I think you should call the Harleys.

Thank you svb <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />....I know we never want to give someone false hopes but I appreciate what you are saying...you are seeing my situation differently than I do. I still have hope. I guess as long as you have hope you are not ready to D. When I am ready to D, I'll know I'll have no hope. Maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry for writing so much.......here....maybe I should go over to my thread.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Best to you....

I do hope that talking to the Harleys gives me some new perspective....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/26/05 07:06 AM
Hey Daisy,

I have regretted it. There is many things I could have said differently.... Besides, at the time I was still an emotional mess and I had not learned much...now I have learned so much and I know what I want in life, what I want to change, what I need to do in a R to make it loving, intimate and make it grow ...I did not know any of that in July....well I knew very little...

Don't get too down about it. As someone very wise told me once, (STILL SEEKING) "we only do as well as we know at the time."

I know that your new information about your H (the e-mail) is a shock to you and is very disheartening, but, somehow, I don't think you're ready to give up yet. You've already come a long way and you might still have a chance to put into practice with your H what you've learned. Plus, you will have one of the Harleys guiding you.

Your H might eventually come around. I sincerely hope that he does. If not, and there comes a time when you need to let go... I think that you will know. You will have peace in your heart about it - especially if you know that you have done everything in your power to save your M beforehand.

I'll be honest with you, I don't want to be out there. I don't want to start dating again. Right now I just don't want to meet man and go through the beginning where you don't know if the OP is at all serious or not ....but then if I don't want to be alone I'll have to jump on that wagon at some point....I could just be experiencing fear right now....I'll probably be ready at some point...

DITTO! As much as I want to have a meaningful R with someone, I'm scared - no, terrified - to get out there and try.

Sorry for writing so much.......here....maybe I should go over to my thread....

Don't be sorry. You can write as much as you like and as often as you like and about whatever you like on this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's my thread and I make the rules here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: milkshake Re: I'm still alive - 11/28/05 04:48 PM
Hi SVB1!

You sound like you are doing great! My parents left this morning (they flew here with me and my son and stayed for about a week), so I am a bit down. My D process will start now and I wish my parents could have sticked around a bit longer so that I feel likt I have a family support at home. Also the holiday season is killing me. I hope I will be feeling as strong as you are in a few months.

I know what you mean about dating - I would LOVE to meet someone I can trust THIS TIME and who is very strong mentally (no more addictions please) and who is not lazy, but I am scared as well. I am scared to get hurt again. But then again, there are so many who have become much happier second time around - so we just have to believe we will too! Oh, last night I had a WONDERFUL dream. I met someone on a cruise and we fell in love. I was quite disappointed this morning when I realized it was just a dream.

Milk
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 11/29/05 09:13 PM
Hi S,
I hope you will tell about your holiday. Just tell what you did, who you did it with, and if you had any conversations about you - if so, how they went.

Yeah, things are a little tough sometimes. I've been feeling a little down lately. Maybe "down" is a little bit too strong of a word. Overall, I think I'm still doing pretty well. I can't put my finger exactly on what it is. Maybe it's because of the holidays coming up. Maybe it's because of the cold and gloomy weather we've been having here. The wind is howling outside right now and I am c-c-c-c-cold.

I admit I like warmer weather. It gets cold here - I mean it freezes most nights from now until late Feb, but it's not like Chicago.

It sounds like a general discontent that you can't define. It may very well be all of the things you talk about. Last year, you still had some hope of saving your relationship, this year, you are resigned to it being over. I would suspect that is part of it too. That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......"

This year is different. Lots of things have changed. I would suspect you would feel some of this even if your H had moved with you, and the marriage was getting better. Change can do that. However, I am glad you feel you are doing better overall. I don't have an opinion on your feelings - they are simply your feelings. I do hope that you get to the point where one day you say "Hey, I'm happy - really happpy, this is so cool." Can you see that day coming yet?

It's not because of STBXH, though. I still don't think too much about him or our M anymore. I guess I must have officially lost all of my love for him. It's about time!! .....and yet it's sad.

I would guess it wouldn't be the thoughts so much, as the feelings. You walk down the street...... by your self. Family is nice, but not the same. I wonder how I would feel, and what I would think if I were in your place. It's hard to know - but I do think you do well for all that has happened. It's not a small thing. But...... I suppose you already know that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I finally received my (corrected) D paperwork from the lawyer on Monday. There are 2 documents that I need to send to the courthouse. STBXH has to sign one of them. I mailed him both documents today. He will sign and then forward them to the courthouse.

This whole D process is taking a lot longer than I'd like. I feel like I need to have all of this behind me.


If this goes like one of the bad movies we often see, you'll get the final papers on Dec 24th.
I really hope you get them by Mid Dec, and by Christmas you are happy as a bug in a rug. Speaking of Christmas, do you have plans yet?

Sometimes I wish that time would just speed by. I'd like to snap my fingers and be 6 months in the future. That way I'd be much further away from all of the pain and much further into personal recovery and healing. I never thought as an adult that I would want time to go by so quickly!!

Oh, it does though. When I was in second grade, it was about 12 years between Thanksgiving and Christmas morning. At least 12 years - measured in long seconds that ticked off ever so slowly. I think the longest ones were spent learning spelling words - or not learning them, depending on just who we are talking about.

Now, The time between Thanksgiving, and Christmas morning is only about 3 days - that last day taking only about 15 seconds. I'm not sure what happened, maybe it's the hole in ozone layer.

I hope you have a happy Thanksgiving and a great weekend.

I did, how about you?
How about everyone else that posts here?


Oh, and STBXH called me on Monday night. Almost 2 weeks exactly since he last called. Last time he called to tell me about that tv show. Monday he called to ask me where he could find and example of a "form Christmas letter." ??!! So I guess he's planning on sending a Christmas letter to everyone this year. I wonder if I'm going to get one. I'd be curious to see what he has to say about everything that happened this past year.

Honestly, I still think he just calls to see what is going on with the D. He never specifically asks, but I tell him.


He is used to you knowing and doing things for him. Also, I bet he just plain misses you. Almost always the WS wakes up one day and wonders what in the world they were thinking. It doesn't mean they have changed though, just that they realize they have suffered a great loss. One they caused themselves. Perhaps he knows it on some level. It would explain a lot.


I wonder if the calls will stop once the D is final. Or maybe he sincerely wants to be just "friends."

How about you, what do you want? I am more interrested in hearing about that. Think about it when you type it out, it will tell you things about yourself. Neither bad, nor good, but just information.

Who knows.

Is this multipal choice? What are the choices?
One if by land, and two if by sea?
I think that's the wrong test.

Actually, God knows. Were it good for you to know, he might put it in your mind one day as you ponder it.

It sounds like talking (typing) might still provide some benefit.

One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?
Not indiviual events, but as a whole? Think about how it felt compared to other years, and see if it tells you anything.

I'm not looking for any right, or wrong answers - OK? I am hoping you learn some things about you, and where you are.

All the best.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/30/05 03:11 AM
Hi SS,

I hope you will tell about your holiday. Just tell what you did, who you did it with, and if you had any conversations about you - if so, how they went.

Well, my brother and his family came into town for the Thanksgiving weekend. They had other plans on Thanksgiving, though. They spent it at my SIL's aunt's house, I think. (which my mother was upset about - but that's a whole nother story <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I drove down and spent the day w/my mom on Thursday. We had dinner (beef, not turkey) and watched a movie, and then I went home.

I worked on Friday, and then I drove straight to my mom's afterwards to stay for the weekend. From there, we went to my brother's IL's house. They had a big dinner on Friday night.

On Saturday, my brother and his family came over. (They always stay at my SIL's parents' house when they are in town) SIL's parents came over for a little while, too. My nieces spent the night. We played and then watched a movie.

There were no conversations about me to speak of - other than "how's work going?" etc. All conversations were light. I was positive and happy at all times possible (not mopey) and we all joked around.

Unless you count the one that I had again with my little niece. We were sitting together in the bedroom where there are STILL wedding pictures up of me and STBXH. She said, "you really need to take those pictures down now." (she told me the same thing months ago - I'm pretty sure I posted about it.)

I said, "Those aren't my pictures to take down - they are Grandma's pictures."
Niece, "Well, then maybe you can just cut STBXH out of them." (she is 8 y.o.)
"Do you miss STBXH?"
Me, "Sometimes, but not as much as I used to."
Niece, "Are you ever going to tell me what he did to you that was so mean?" (I never told her that STBXH did anything mean to me. It must be the reason that my bro or SIL gave her for our D)
Me, "Yes. I will tell you..... when you are 30."
My niece grumbled.
Me, "OK, when you are 30 OR when you get married, whichever comes first."
Niece, "ok, then I am getting married tomorrow."

Truthfully, I have no idea what to tell her. I thought of just saying that STBXH stopped loving me, but I didn't. She is a really, really sensitive kid. For instance, she likes animal shows, but she cries whenever one gets killed. "(sniff sniff) But that mouse never had a chance! NOBODY WARNED HIM THAT THE SNAKE WAS COMING! BWAAAAA!" Or, apparently, sometimes she will start to cry out of the blue. When asked what the matter is, she says, "I MISS GRANDPA!!" So, I feel like I have to be pretty careful about whatever I say. I don't want to scar my brother's kids for life!

I would gladly take any suggestions on this matter. Somehow, I have a feeling that this subject is going to come up again. I keep forgetting to ask my brother about it, too.

I'll be back later to post some more. I'm starting to get a headache. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 11/30/05 06:22 AM
It sounds like a general discontent that you can't define. It may very well be all of the things you talk about. Last year, you still had some hope of saving your relationship, this year, you are resigned to it being over. I would suspect that is part of it too. That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......"

I think I know what it is. It's not that I was feeling "down" so much as I was feeling down about myself. Is that what you mean by this --That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......

I think it started one day as I was thinking about someday meeting a good man. Suddenly, I just felt that I wouldn't be good enough for him. Afterall, STBXH never liked the way that I dressed, he didn't like the way that I cooked, etc. So, if I met this new man, I wouldn't know what to wear, and ... sigh....I would be embarrassed to cook for him. And these are only 2 examples of many things. For a while there I was feeling pretty disgusted with myself and I was kinda hating myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The thing is that I DO know better. I just can't help feeling that way sometimes.

My question is, will those occasional feelings of worthlessness go away? Am I going to feel this way forever? Does everyone feel this way sometimes? Maybe I need to get back into IC.

I know that you've been trying to build me up, and I really appreciate it. You and others say positive things about me and I thank you. (and I'm not fishing for more, really. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> -- it makes me think of when STBXH would say that women always fish for compliments and he wasn't ever going to play that game) I'm just telling you how I've been feeling lately.

Which leads to something else -- the day that I am in another serious R, will my SO understand when I go through periodic bouts of feeling worthless? Will he get tired of reassuring me that I'm ok? Don't guys like women with self-esteem and self-confidence?

I do hope that you get to the point where one day you say "Hey, I'm happy - really happpy, this is so cool." Can you see that day coming yet? .

Don't get me wrong. I am much happier now than I've been in a long time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I feel much better now. I feel free. I look back now and I wonder WHAT WAS I THINKING when I was having all of those doubts about the D.

wonder if the calls will stop once the D is final. Or maybe he sincerely wants to be just "friends."

How about you, what do you want? I am more interrested in hearing about that. Think about it when you type it out, it will tell you things about yourself. Neither bad, nor good, but just information.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be best if I never hear from him again.

One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?

Hmmmm.....just different.
Posted By: Orchid Re: I'm still alive - 11/30/05 06:30 AM
svb1,

I haven't read your entire thread but am gonna spin your last post in another direction, so hang on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe your XH didn't like or says he didn't like things you wore, said or did. IMHO, that's babble.

Now here's the spin.. WhY? Because if u were that bad, why didn't help you change for the better? Why not? Because it isn't about you. It's about the WS. Those greedy selfish nutcases.

What does this do for your self esteem? This means, with a good plan A changes under your belt, when the RIGHT person comes along, he will love you who u r, not some pretenda bee plasticy OP typo creature. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

U may be pleasantly surprised how attractive u really r to real people. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now don't stuff yourself into a corner. Your worst mistake was making a bad choice in regards to the WS. If you had the radar sense to see the WS being made in front of your eyes and had the guts t/d something about it (fight the mothership), then maybe you may have saved yourself some misery. Most of us don't have that perception nor power. So we plan A, B, D then go be happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The WS on the other hand, plans B.A.D. LOL!!! that spells BAD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm still alive - 12/01/05 12:49 AM
Hi Orchid,

You make a ton of sense. Thank you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I appreciate seeing things from a different POV. It really helps sometimes.

So we plan A, B, D then go be happy. The WS on the other hand, plans B.A.D. LOL!!! that spells BAD!

I like that, too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Too funny. To take it further, maybe we plan A, B, D then go be happy, and the WS plans B A D and then is sad (after they realize what they've lost!)

Milkshake,

You sound like you are doing great!

Thanks, I think I'm doing pretty well, overall. I still have my moments, though, as you can see.

I'm positive that you'll be doing much better, too, in a few months.
Posted By: white_daisy Re: I'm still alive - 12/01/05 02:42 AM
Which leads to something else -- the day that I am in another serious R, will my SO understand when I go through periodic bouts of feeling worthless? Will he get tired of reassuring me that I'm ok? Don't guys like women with self-esteem and self-confidence?

I wonder about this as well. On one hand I read and understand that a R needs realy emotional intimacy....yet on the other hand if you do have doubts about yourself sometimes (and I think a lot of us do) is it better to just keep it to yourself? When I would share that with H I did that to share my feelings and my doubts are part of that....and he would just find me whiny...but that is not why I said anything...and as you svb1, I was not fishing for compliments or anything like that....I just thought we could share.....so I get confused as well....I guess maybe one answer is that to have doubts here and there is normal and not to share just the doubts but the confidence as well....

Anyway, I am struggeling with this as well.....

Daisy
Posted By: milkshake Re: I'm still alive - 12/02/05 04:09 PM
Hi SVB,

I have a lot of those moments where I feel worthless. Like Daisy said, I think a lof of us do. After a year of seeing and hearing how angry STBXH has been with me, unless my friends remind me what he was doing behind my back for all those years, I tend to fall in a guilt trap and feel like such a bad person. And I get scared if the next person would feel the same way about me in the future. This is something I need to work on.

To me, though, you sound 100 times stronger than me. Also, if you want to completely "end" the contacts with your STBXH, you can, which I think might help you heal sooner.

It's getting so cold now here, but we still need to get together sometime soon! I may be going out with my girlfriend on one of these Saturdays - if you are free, maybe you can join us!

Milk
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I'm still alive - 12/02/05 07:21 PM
HI SVB,

Long time, no catch up. I hope you are doing well.

I think EVERYONE has moments of doubt about their worthiness... it's just natural. But, put someone through all we've been through, and it just seems monumental. Again, I think it's perfectly normal and natural. You just cant let yourself wallow in the dumps for very long. I think sometimes these feelings of doubt can push us out of a rut... give us a kick in the right direction. Entice you to diet, clean, exercise, or take cooking lessons <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

And you know, the man who really loves you will love you even if you burn the dinner. I love to cook, but I've had some real duds... and not a bad word from my H, ever. I even bent one of his expensive aluminum wheels on the car when I took a curb too closely (GASP!), and he let it go. To a gear-head, THAT'S Real Love! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your H had tons of his own issues. He lied and was manipulative when he didnt need to. Dont let him take too much of your brain time... He's not really worth it. Please take care of yourself! - Dru <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm still alive - 12/07/05 11:13 PM
I hope you don't care if I just kind of talk. I do intend to make sense of it before I'm done.

On the Thanksgiving Holiday -

It's interesting to hear how your holiday went. I am wondering what you do that you worked on Friday - but that is my curiosity coming out, and it's not necessary for you to answer.
We had beef for thanksgiving too - and turkey, and ham. Family tradition. When you have close to 50 people you can assign it all out.

I see you watched a movie on Thanksgiving - did you choose it, or your mom, what was it, and did you enjoy it?
Go ahead and laugh as much as you want - it doesn't bother me at all.

I find it interesting also that your brother always stays at SIL's parent's house.
It makes me wonder -
Is it a space issue? Does SIL have something against your Mom? Are her parents demanding, and they do it to please them?

We have always taken turns - my folks one year, hers the next. I can't imagine doing it any other way, and pretending it is fair. BTW, I'm discussing this as a learning experience for me, what do you think about your brothers reasons?


On Saturday, my brother and his family came over. (They always stay at my SIL's parents' house when they are in town) SIL's parents came over for a little while, too. My nieces spent the night. We played and then watched a movie.

Nieces like you, don't they. That speaks volumes for what kind of person you are. Think about that............... The little children came to Jesus, and he let them stay. He took them onto his lap, he talked to them. They felt what kind of person he was, and they wanted to be near him. I see a connection here. Be honest, they do like you, don't they. Notice this is a statement, not a question. I already know the answer.

There were no conversations about me to speak of - other than "how's work going?" etc. All conversations were light. I was positive and happy at all times possible (not mopey) and we all joked around.

So they don't protect you or be careful what they say these days? It's just like old times when doing family stuff?

Unless you count the one that I had again with my little niece.

I count it - it provides information that is valuable to you.

We were sitting together in the bedroom where there are STILL wedding pictures up of me and STBXH. She said, "you really need to take those pictures down now." (she told me the same thing months ago - I'm pretty sure I posted about it.)

I said, "Those aren't my pictures to take down - they are Grandma's pictures."
Niece, "Well, then maybe you can just cut STBXH out of them." (she is 8 y.o.)
"Do you miss STBXH?"
Me, "Sometimes, but not as much as I used to."


I have not been where you are - but I wonder if I would want to get rid of them. I mean, it was real (as opposed to fake), it was good, or at least parts of it were, and you learned so much. But then, it would be so hard to see them and not be affected by it. As you say, it's not your decision to make, but I suspect your Mom would honor a request if she felt it was hurting you.

Your mom had dreams for you too - and perhaps she will never pressure you, but perhaps those pictures represent something to her that she hates to loose. One can never be sure about some things, unless one asks.

You said you miss him sometimes, but not as much. Is it hard to pin that down? I mean, are you low sometimes and don't know why?

Niece, "Are you ever going to tell me what he did to you that was so mean?" (I never told her that STBXH did anything mean to me. It must be the reason that my bro or SIL gave her for our D)
Me, "Yes. I will tell you..... when you are 30."
My niece grumbled.
Me, "OK, when you are 30 OR when you get married, whichever comes first."
Niece, "ok, then I am getting married tomorrow."


No one likes to be in the dark about important things. She wants to know like you wanted to know - back when you were tracking him, and counting little foil packages. I know it's not the same, but her puzzle is missing pieces, and she wants it finished. The other thing is, that she trusts you to do what's right, and she probably feels he must have done something really terrible. I think he did, he destroyed your love and trust, but she probably couldn't understand well at her age.

Truthfully, I have no idea what to tell her. I thought of just saying that STBXH stopped loving me, but I didn't. She is a really, really sensitive kid. For instance, she likes animal shows, but she cries whenever one gets killed. "(sniff sniff) But that mouse never had a chance! NOBODY WARNED HIM THAT THE SNAKE WAS COMING! BWAAAAA!" Or, apparently, sometimes she will start to cry out of the blue. When asked what the matter is, she says, "I MISS GRANDPA!!" So, I feel like I have to be pretty careful about whatever I say. I don't want to scar my brother's kids for life!

Yes, I understand, especially since she thinks so highly of you. (Which we both know is true.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I would gladly take any suggestions on this matter. Somehow, I have a feeling that this subject is going to come up again. I keep forgetting to ask my brother about it, too.

I think you did well - and I think she does need to be older to understand. I recommend you hold to what you told her.

I'll be back later to post some more. I'm starting to get a headache.

Sorry.

On feeling down -
I think I know what it is. It's not that I was feeling "down" so much as I was feeling down about myself. Is that what you mean by this --That, and other things I won't mention - but do you ever find your self saying "Oh mom......

No, I was kind of teasing, but from what I get, your mom sometimes wants you to do things her way. I wonder if you have guilt about that sometimes. Times when you tell her how you are GOING TO DO IT, and she still argues with you. Perhaps those times are long past. Long term relationships are a learning experience. All of us can learn from family interaction and leverage what we learn to make our romantic relationships better. If you can do what is best for you without letting pressure from family change your mind, you will do it when you begin to fall in love again, and it may be easier for you to make sure it's a healthy relationship - win/win.
I was probing reasons for your blue thoughts.

I still have a very hard time with you feeling down about your self. It's so foreign to me that someone like you could have so many doubts. Some are normal, but not on this scale. The thing is, you could read this and feel guilty. I am only telling you my thoughts, so don't "own" the things I am saying. I am hoping it helps you with your direction and goals. You are so much better than what you sometimes think. I sometimes feel like a coach working with a future Olympic champion athlete who doesn't know yet what they can really do. You are that good - you should know it.

I think it started one day as I was thinking about someday meeting a good man. Suddenly, I just felt that I wouldn't be good enough for him. After all, STBXH never liked the way that I dressed, he didn't like the way that I cooked, etc. So, if I met this new man, I wouldn't know what to wear, and ... sigh....I would be embarrassed to cook for him. And these are only 2 examples of many things. For a while there I was feeling pretty disgusted with myself and I was kinda hating myself.

So, is this feelings about yourself, more than logic about how you really are?
I mean, you do KNOW you can cook, etc don't you?
This is a guy that let you do EVERYTHING for him, and then complained how you did it. What you do in this case, is let them do it by themselves. He will be learning......... and he won't like what he learns. Education can be so costly sometimes.

The thing is that I DO know better. I just can't help feeling that way sometimes.

OK, it's feelings about yourself. Different parts of your mind are trying to reconcile what happened. Your intellect and your emotions are trying to find common ground. Emotions have such a hard time with logic. Just remember, we have emotions for a reason......... sometimes it's good to do things just because - and our emotions know that. I think you are looking for balance though - it's hard some days.


My question is, will those occasional feelings of worthlessness go away? Am I going to feel this way forever? Does everyone feel this way sometimes? Maybe I need to get back into IC.

Dru has been telling you that it will get better - and she has been there. I would trust her. She is the same caliber of person as you are - I think she sees that too....... that you can do it just like she did.

I don't believe you will feel like this forever.


I know that you've been trying to build me up, and I really appreciate it. You and others say positive things about me and I thank you. (and I'm not fishing for more, really. -- it makes me think of when STBXH would say that women always fish for compliments and he wasn't ever going to play that game) I'm just telling you how I've been feeling lately.

I want you to know something.
I don't feel sorry for you, or say "Poor SVB, we need to help her." I sense pain sometimes, and I seek to help dissolve it, but I don't pity you.
I feel more like I am helping an equal who is going through a hard time. I realize our trials can be good for us, and I see you learning and growing. People have different strengths, and weaknesses, and some of us are not in the middle of such an emotional upheaval, so it is natural to try and help others that are.

You have both strengths and weaknesses. Don't get to thinking you only have weaknesses, you are not that lopsided. Remember your strengths, be happy you have them, and remember who you are - a daughter of God.

Thanks for trusting us enough to tell us how you have been feeling lately. It can be so much easier when people communicate. Look at this as a temporary setback, and have faith you will grow out of it. Just ask Lenny, she'll tell you the same thing.


Which leads to something else -- the day that I am in another serious R, will my SO understand when I go through periodic bouts of feeling worthless? Will he get tired of reassuring me that I'm OK? Don't guys like women with self-esteem and self-confidence?

Yes, we do. We also know that everyone has times when they need a little help. Marriage is a partnership where we help each other on bad days. When both have bad days, you just call in sick, and stay in bed together. (don't we wish?)
You got someone that took but didn't give back. I am speaking of emotionally, I know he did give in some ways.
I am not sure of what to tell you about this part. I am looking for the day when you WANT that next relationship and when you think you are ready for it. You are ready in most ways - your mind probably knows that. You need someone that is as good, as supportive, and as mature as you are. That narrows the field but you can find someone. Do you have faith in this?
That's not a trick question. What do you really think?

Don't get me wrong. I am much happier now than I've been in a long time. I feel much better now. I feel free. I look back now and I wonder WHAT WAS I THINKING when I was having all of those doubts about the D.

I should tease you, but it was too big a thing - too important, too serious. You needed the time so that you would be sure. Now you are, and that is the only way it would work.
Free is good. Now, how can freedom serve you?

On continued conversation with XH as time goes on.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be best if I never hear from him again.

I suggest you put that chapter behind you, and see just how good life can be without that kind of abusive relationship. I vote for NC if you do.

SS asked:
One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?

Hmmmm.....just different.

OK, you aren't going to get away with that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I want to know what felt good, and what felt bad, or uncomfortable.

BTW,
Orchid is right about the WS. If it was about you, they would help you make changes, and encourage you, but it's about their faults, not about yours.


Daisy, and Milkshake - you two have come a long way too, but remember this is a journey (this thing called life) and the trick is to enjoy the ride anyway, despite all the problems. I don't mean while you are in the middle of terrible marriage problems, but you should be looking for a future, knowing there will be one, and believing that it will be happy.

All of us need to find ways to be happy no matter what is given to us. My personal opinion is that it's part of the test.

Sometimes it takes a while, but never give up on happiness.

SS
Posted By: svb1 I'm divorced - 12/16/05 03:04 AM
Yes, I have a major update.

I am officially divorced. The judge signed the divorce decree on December 1. I just received it in the mail today. I've been D'd for two weeks and didn't even know it!

I definitely have mixed feelings. I'm a little sad, but at the same time, I'm kind of happy to have this all behind me now. I can start 2006 without being in limbo! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Despite everything that has happened in my life, I feel that I have grown as a person - thanks to the MB concepts and the people here - and hopefully will continue to improve. I'm going to start 2006 with much hope of a bright future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 12/16/05 04:26 AM
One never quite knows what to say.

I am sad.

You know the reasons far better than I.

On the other hand (fiddler on the roof) I am happy.

Do you realize that you are as good in real life as the picture I paint of you here?
God knows you best, what feelings does he give you when you read this? Does he concur? Can you feel it?

Sleep well. Have a nice weekend.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 12/19/05 04:41 AM
Hi SS,

Do you realize that you are as good in real life as the picture I paint of you here? God knows you best, what feelings does he give you when you read this? Does he concur? Can you feel it?

I've been feeling a little better about myself lately.
So, yes, I can feel it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Overall, I know, but I guess I just have my moments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I've been exercising almost every day, and I think that helps, too. I'm really trying to take care of myself.

Hello Daisy, Milkshake, and Drucilla,

Yeah, I guess we all do have moments where we feel worthless. But, Drucilla, you're right, we can't wallow in those thoughts.

For me, it HAS kicked me in the right direction and has enticed me to diet, clean, and exercise.
I'm whipping myself into shape. My muscles are hating me, but I'm already starting to lose weight, and people are noticing! That feels good.

And um, let's see, how shall I say this? I think one particular male co-worker has "noticed" too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Okay, I'll admit, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to guys, but this guy spent an awful lot of time hanging around my desk on Friday talking to me, and he works in another department. He worked in questions about my "husband" and "kids," too. ALL alarms started going off in my head. All I could say was, "Uh, my husband?... uh....no...I'm divorced. Kids? Uh.... no, no kids.." Yeah, I'm real smooth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He asked me about my plans for this weekend, too. Thankfully I had plans! Was he going to ask me out? Could I be mistaken about this? I apologize for sounding like a dork, but keep in mind that I've been with the same man for the past 15 YEARS and never had eyes for anyone else.

Yes, and this happens the DAY after I get my divorce decree. What's up with that? Is it written on my forehead that I'm divorced now?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> HELP! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 12/19/05 05:16 AM
HELP!

I don't know if you need any help at all. It sounds like you are doing a good job all by yourself.

You can be sure he wouldn't be asking if he wasn't interrested. You don't have to be "smooth", just be yourself.

Live right, keep praying, and think about things when you have free time. God will help you, you know he will.

BTW, you don't sound like a dork, you sound like a humble daughter of God that wants to do things right. DOn't worry about appearances, you are good enough like you are. You want to live in real life, and have a real life relationshop, not a fairy tale one. You'll do fine.

His asking about plans is a dead giveaway. Expect him to come round again. I did a post once to graycloud about dating. I think I'll post it again for you too. It was probably something I read somewhere, but it's good to think about it.

Remember that romantic relationships are kind of risky by nature. Dating is something we do to find out about other people. It's a time to practice and experiment. It's a place for people to look for a mate, find a partner.

It's not a place to seek healing. It's low commitment, and high risk. If you are not healed when you begin, and you trust your feelings to someone but it doesn't work out, you will be worse off than had you waited.

If you are ready, then go for it. If you are not, then tell him straight out what your feelings are. It's better to be plain about it.

You sound better every week. Merry Christmas, and may it be a happy time for you. just be careful.

SS
Posted By: milkshake Re: I'm divorced - 12/19/05 03:44 PM
Hi SVB1.

Your co-worker is definitely interested in you. This happened the day after you got your divorce decree, so there is nothing you need to feel bad/guilty about! I do like SS's advice on dating - that is so true, that it is a place for people to look for a mate but not to seek healing. You do sound very strong and positive though, SVB1, and I hope you are starting a new chapter of your life in 2006!

Merry Christmas!

Milk
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 12/24/05 08:18 AM
Hello SS and Milkshake,

Thanks for your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It has been a crazy week. My mom fell and broke her shoulder earlier this week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Boy, and just when you thought it was safe to kiss your grandkids goodnight. I took Monday and Tuesday off to take her to the ER and spend time with her. (I didn't find out till Monday morning) She's doing much better now, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, and my new "friend" noticed my absence. He asked about it when I returned to work on Wednesday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

His asking about plans is a dead giveaway. Expect him to come round again. I did a post once to graycloud about dating. I think I'll post it again for you too. It was probably something I read somewhere, but it's good to think about it.

SS, I'd be curious to read about it if you can find it.

If you are ready, then go for it. If you are not, then tell him straight out what your feelings are. It's better to be plain about it.

I honestly don't know if I'm ready. I was not expecting this at all. I kind of had a timeline about this. I thought that I would give myself around 6 more months. That way, I would have been separated for a year, and divorced for 6 months. I would have been more into my personal recovery and feeling even better about myself (including having lost more weight). I wasn't even going to consider dating until then.

Now this. I have to admit, though, it is flattering. Can you imagine, after having been completely rejected by my husband, to have another male actually wanting to come around and talk to me? It helps my severely wounded self-esteem. Maybe this is what I needed, even if nothing ever comes of this.

Maybe I should just tell him, if he ever does ask me out, that I'm too recently divorced and not ready to date yet. If I say that, would he be offended?

What do you think?

Merry Christmas
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 12/24/05 06:29 PM
Hi S,
It's good to hear from you.

Thanks for your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It has been a crazy week. My mom fell and broke her shoulder earlier this week.


Oh wow. You don't know how my countenance fell when I read that. I am so sorry. You can tell her I said that too.
I know it's part of life, but....... Oh, you know. I am sure you are coping, but it's not what you would call fun. Glad she is doing better.


Yes, and my new "friend" noticed my absence. He asked about it when I returned to work on Wednesday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Not sure why you would have a problem with that. He likes you.


On dating:
SS, I'd be curious to read about it if you can find it.

It wasn't much. Actually, I did find it, and I posted it up above. It was this short little statement -
Remember that romantic relationships are kind of risky by nature. Dating is something we do to find out about other people. It's a time to practice and experiment. It's a place for people to look for a mate, find a partner.

It's not a place to seek healing. It's low commitment, and high risk. If you are not healed when you begin, and you trust your feelings to someone but it doesn't work out, you will be worse off than had you waited.


What I mean is that you don't know anything about him really. (Him, or most guys you would meet.) You may not want the same things in life that they want. It would really hurt to realize you had feelings for someone that was going another direction than you want to go.

If you read much, you understand that most guys think of the big "S" a lot more than women do. The ones that have been around a lot (and don't care about other people) have learned how to get what they want. I know you are not stupid, but all of us are human. Slow is the order of the day.
I think you know what you want. BUT - you studied XH for a long time and hard a hard time reading the signs because you loved him. If someone meets our needs, we have a hard time not loving them.

When it is time, you need to know your strengths and weaknesses, and you need to be careful. It is plain this guy likes you, but it's not plain if he is what you want, and need. That part takes time. The same time spent getting to know someone can work against us if we fall in love with the wrong person before we learn enough. My safety while dating was prayer. I told God I was not good at it, and I needed help to avoid mistakes. He helped me.

I could go on, but no reason to be specific if you aren't dating yet. Just remember that God is your partner in happiness, not a limiter on it. He knows what you need, and he can help you find it.


I honestly don't know if I'm ready. I was not expecting this at all. I kind of had a timeline about this. I thought that I would give myself around 6 more months. That way, I would have been separated for a year, and divorced for 6 months. I would have been more into my personal recovery and feeling even better about myself (including having lost more weight). I wasn't even going to consider dating until then.

I think waiting is wise. I admit I worry about you dating, and I worry about you not dating. Not that you couldn't date, but that you wouldn't want to. How dumb is that? My worry I mean, not if you will, or won't.

Now this. I have to admit, though, it is flattering. Can you imagine, after having been completely rejected by my husband, to have another male actually wanting to come around and talk to me? It helps my severely wounded self-esteem. Maybe this is what I needed, even if nothing ever comes of this.

Yes, I can imagine. It feels good to you. It should feel good, just be careful with your feelings. OK? You are too important to get hurt again.

Maybe I should just tell him, if he ever does ask me out, that I'm too recently divorced and not ready to date yet. If I say that, would he be offended?

What do you think?


Lets use logic.
If you meet someone that is mature, and has the attributes you are looking for, they would understand. They may not want to wait, but that's their choice. Why would someone that cared about your feelings be offended? That is not logical to me. What do you think?

Your worries could be more along the lines of "What if this is my only chance, and he won't wait?" I think that might be more true than him being offended. If he was offended, he would NOT be the right guy. I think your mom and I would agree on that.


Guys are different from girls in some respects. When I dated, I wanted to know the truth, not play games. I wasn't good at reading signs then, and I needed straight talk. I think most guys feel this way. If he cares about YOU - and is not just thinking about himself, he will understand. If he is sensitive, and if he cares, and if he really knows who he is talking to, he would wait quite a while for a chance too.

Remember that you need to do things that are right for you. You need time to heal. It doesn't matter much what the other person does, or says, if it won't work for you. Mr. right will help you, not pressure you. The man you want will understand you, and meet your needs.

I would be offended if I was not told the truth. I would be offended and hurt if I found out a girl didn't think she was ready, but said yes anyway. If she was the girl for me, she wouldn't date until she was ready. She would take care of herself, and do what was best for her heart.

If you talk to this guy,. if he asks you out, or if he keeps coming by, go ahead and tell him what you told us. You can still talk to him, but keep in mind about meeting needs. Any one you let close will make deposits in your LB big time, it can't be helped. You need to be really careful and look at ALL the signs, not just how you feel.

Merry Christmas to you too. Take good care of your mom, she loves you and wants what is best for you. She's human though, so cut her some slack when she needs it.

You really are better than you think.

The only other thing - do we need to talk about why you couldn't sleep last night?

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 12/30/05 02:31 AM
Hi SVB1,

I haven't been posting much lately. I noticed that your D is final - AND you are getting some attention at work.

As I wrote on my thread, I've been talking to my XW about reconciling. She just left today to go spend 2 weeks with her family - and today I've figured out that she's not been telling me the truth about continued contact with OM. How many times am I going to believe her? <sigh>

So, I think now, I'm done again.

I've got to get my head cleared and starting looking forward and not backward.

I think SS's advice to you is good, but I would add that you might tell this fellow that you very much appreciate his interest, and it made you feel good to know that he was interested, but... you are not ready. That way, you make him feel good a little, and he's more likely to check back with you later (if that's what you want). Probably he's got a story too - and some old hurts that may not be 100% healed. Telling him you appreciate his interest would be a kindness to him.

Drop me an email if you like. I'm in no hurry either.
mb11094@yahoo.com

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/01/06 09:59 AM
Hi SS and AD. Happy New Year!

AD,

Welcome back. I was wondering about you. I kinda thought that you might be re-married by now!! I'm sorry that your XW disappointed you again. I know that you wanted everything to work out for the 2 of you. Maybe it's best that you found out sooner rather than later that she hasn't been truthful.

I told Milkshake the other day that I give her a lot of credit for trying to move on when she has to be in constant contact with her STBXH (because of her DS). I give you a lot of credit, too. It can't be easy. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I'd have to see my XH all of the time. Maybe I'd be having more doubts, too.

I've read your thread, btw, and I think it's great that you're trying to take care of yourself. It sounds like a good New Year's resolution.

...and thanks for your advice on this fellow at work (we'll call him "so and so").

SS,

Thank you, too, for your advice on so and so - and on dating in general. I've been thinking about your posts, and I have a lot to say. I'll try to post again tonight when I'm back home in the comfort of my little apt.

I have some new questions, too, but I'll wait on those for now. I don't want to ask new questions before I even answer any old ones!
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 01/01/06 10:33 PM
SVB,

Thanks for wondering about me - and reading my thread.

Happy New Year to some lucky so and so...

Happy New Year to you too!

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 01/02/06 01:54 AM
Happy New Year !

May it be your best year yet.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/05/06 07:06 AM
Well, so much for coming back to post on Sunday night! I was too tired. Then on Monday I had a seveeeeere migraine ... all day... all night... and into the next morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And last night after work I had my first divorce support group meeting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK, here's what I've been struggling with lately....

MY MOTHER!!!!

SS, like you suggested, I am trying to cut her some slack - she is human, and she is injured. But boy is it difficult - more difficult than ever.

No, I was kind of teasing, but from what I get, your mom sometimes wants you to do things her way. I wonder if you have guilt about that sometimes. Times when you tell her how you are GOING TO DO IT, and she still argues with you. Perhaps those times are long past. Long term relationships are a learning experience. All of us can learn from family interaction and leverage what we learn to make our romantic relationships better. If you can do what is best for you without letting pressure from family change your mind, you will do it when you begin to fall in love again, and it may be easier for you to make sure it's a healthy relationship - win/win.

Granted, I know you're talking about her not liking some of the things that I might be doing - or not doing - in my life. But it also goes for every litte other thing, too. Nothing is good enough. She just can't be pleased. Sound familiar? I married someone exactly like my mom. Why?

Here's an example. My mom and my nieces started putting up the Christmas tree during the weekend before my mother broke her shoulder. They didn't finish. Only the tree and lights were up. After my mom broke her shoulder, and I stayed w/her those 1st couple of days, I finished decorating the tree - while she was in a Vicodin-induced sleep. Well, she woke up, saw the tree, and said, "oh.. you put the tree skirt on that way." What other way is there?? Let's see, I also missed a couple of spots with the ornaments, and the ribbons weren't curly-cued enough. sigh. All I was hoping for was, "hey! you finished the tree!"

My brother got it, too, while he was in town. He tried to help her as well, but he couldn't get it right. He drove her to a follow-up doctor's appt. last Wednesday. Apparently he didn't drive her there the right way. He went shopping for her, too, but he bought 6 yogurts instead of 4, and he bought too much toilet paper. As I see it, too much is better than too little, right?

She gave him a big guilt trip, too. Basically, she said that if it were one of his in-laws that broke their shoulder, his wife would probably have taken three weeks off from work to take care of them. How can you not feel like a worthless son or daughter after a comment like that? Yes, and GUILTY. If she said that about him, what must she think about me taking only TWO DAYS off from work?

My bro and I spent a good deal of time consoling each other as much as we consoled our mom. At least we recognize this all now for what it is. And can you understand why my bro might stay with his in-laws instead of my mom? Space isn't the issue.

And you know what? I've kind of had a major revelation as I type all of this. Yes, I excelled at school while I was growing up. I think I have accomplished a lot in my life. Maybe I've always been trying to please someone who could never be pleased - starting with my mom .. and then my husband. Maybe that's why I'm so hard on myself, too. My brother, btw, is a big success - a HUGE success, at least in my eyes. Hey, you've got to idolize your big bro, right? He still has his marriage, too, and my way-cool nieces.

Which makes me think of what AD said about my M failing. Maybe I took it so hard because I'm not used to failing at anything. But I'm starting to look at it a little differently now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll leave it for another really, really long post, though.

I still have a very hard time with you feeling down about your self. It's so foreign to me that someone like you could have so many doubts. Some are normal, but not on this scale. The thing is, you could read this and feel guilty. I am only telling you my thoughts, so don't "own" the things I am saying. I am hoping it helps you with your direction and goals. You are so much better than what you sometimes think. I sometimes feel like a coach working with a future Olympic champion athlete who doesn't know yet what they can really do. You are that good - you should know it.

Thank you - and don't worry, I don't feel guilty. I appreciate all of your comments.

I think maybe this post sums up why I get so down on myself and blue sometimes. This issue goes WAY back. I gotta work on overcoming those feelings when they come around. Hopefully they'll stop coming around someday.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/07/06 06:37 AM
SS asked:
One more thing (grin) - Thanksgiving....... how did it FEEL this year?

Hmmmm.....just different.

OK, you aren't going to get away with that. I want to know what felt good, and what felt bad, or uncomfortable.

I have to admit, Thanksgiving and Christmas both felt the same. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

...like something was missing. Obviously, exH wasn't there -- but my dad wasn't there, either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Don't get me wrong, it's not that I wanted ex-H to be there. I didn't. It's just that there seemed to be this overwhelming emptiness - an all-too-quietness - this feeling that everything had changed so drastically in the past few years that nothing could ever be -even remotely- the same again.

It also didn't help that we "celebrated" Thanksgiving on the Saturday after the holiday, and we celebrated Christmas on Monday. At least you can't change "when" you celebrate New Year's, right?

This sounds much more depressing than I meant it to sound. The holidays weren't that bad - and I'm pretty sure I'm not depressed. There were good moments, too, during the holidays. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And there were bad moments during holidays of past. There. I fixed it.

I hope that answers your question. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 01/07/06 07:01 AM
I hope that answers your question.

Yes.

Thankyou.

SS smiles.

I'm thinking........
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 01/07/06 07:25 AM
Hi SVB,
Hi SS.

Quote
It's just that there seemed to be this overwhelming emptiness - an all-too-quietness - this feeling that everything had changed so drastically in the past few years that nothing could ever be -even remotely- the same again.

I understand that feeling. I moved back into my old house, but for 2 years before I married, my Mom lived with me (moved here after breaking her arm in a fall). She's not here - died 3 years ago on Christmas day. I miss her sometimes. Sometimes I just want to call her up and chat. Being in the midst of the battle of the marriage, I didn't miss her as much.

To be honest, the thing that saddens me the most is how quickly people are forgotten. They live their lives with great struggle - and sometimes with great drama, and then they are gone - and far too soon forgotten.

I hope you have some good memories of your Dad. I think we need to sit and remember sometimes - to honor those who loved us who are no longer here.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 04:30 AM
Hi SS,

I'm thinking........

Don't think too much!

Hi AD,

She's not here - died 3 years ago on Christmas day.

GASP! On Christmas Day? I'm so sorry. As I calculate it, my dad died about 2 months after your mother did. (2/23/03)

Also, my D was final about 2 months after yours, so I guess you would understand the feeling. It seems like we're on a same sort of bizarre time-line, with a 2 month delay. Weird.

but for 2 years before I married, my Mom lived with me (moved here after breaking her arm in a fall

It sounds like you are a better son than I am a daughter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Although I did offer to bring my mom to stay w/me at my place after she broke her shoulder, but she wouldn't hear of it. She's too comfortable in her own home and she doesn't want to leave. She's a tough lady and she can fend for herself, for the most part. I just check in on her when I can and do for her then what she can't do.

To be honest, the thing that saddens me the most is how quickly people are forgotten. They live their lives with great struggle - and sometimes with great drama, and then they are gone - and far too soon forgotten.

I hope you have some good memories of your Dad. I think we need to sit and remember sometimes - to honor those who loved us who are no longer here.

I do have good memories of my dad. He was a great man and I miss him.

He was sick for a long time before he died. He had Parkinson's disease. If you can remember what Pope John Paul II looked like before he died - that is exactly how my father looked. The same posture... the same frozen expression on his face...the same slurred speech, etc (no white garb or Popemobile, though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). I (and my mother) couldn't watch television footage of the Pope after my dad died.

ANYWAY, what really saddens me is that my nieces never really knew their grandfather as he really was. They were 5 and 8 when he died. They remember him as a sick old man in a wheelchair. They were afraid of him -- to hug him or kiss him. My father really loved them, too. He loved kids. You could see the joy in his eyes when they would come to visit. He would try to talk to them...but they couldn't understand him ...and they would back away. It just broke my heart.

But yet my little niece sometimes mentions that she misses him... so I don't know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to try to tell them some stories about their grandfather - so that they do get a picture of how great he really was and how he loved them.

I hope you have good memories of your mom, too. I bet you do.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 05:42 AM
SVB,

Oh yes, I have wonderful memories of both of my parents. And I don't mind that she died on Christmas. Rather, it makes Christmas more special to me - and ...

Well, I think what really happened was something like this :

Mom was laying there in the nursing home on Christmas morn, and God whispered in her ear. "Hey daughter, do you want to come to Christmas at my house?" And she said "Oh, that would be very nice!". So, she did.

I take Mom's death on Christmas day as God's special stamp of approval on her life.

Mom had Parkinsons too, so I know what that's like.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 05:50 AM
Aaargh! Now I am feeling guilty about complaining about my mother.

svb is not happy unless she's feeling guilty about something!

I do love my mother to death. I know she loves me, too, and wants only the best for me. She's got her flaws, but I love her in spite of them. I've got my flaws, too.

I've just been trying to reflect on my life and my relationships. I'm trying to learn....something.
I'm trying to understand...things.

BTW, we had a really good day today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No complaints, no criticisms, and no guilt trips! Nuthin' but love today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We had a really great conversation today, too, ironically, about relationships.

I'm tired -- I feel like I'm just rambling. Does anything I say ever make any sense?

I'm going to sleep. Sweet dreams to all.
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 06:03 AM
Hey!

I just missed your post!

Oh, you've lost both your parents. I'm sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Wow, and your mom had Parkinson's! Now I know why she broke her arm. Dad broke many a bone.

Guess what? My mother's birthday is on Christmas day. I didn't want to mention it because I thought it might make you ... sad. But I understand completely what you are saying.

This is all feeling kind of eerie to me.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 06:14 AM
Quote
This is all feeling kind of eerie to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 06:31 AM
Seriously! I'm a little freaked-out here.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm just tired.

OK. I'm going to sleep for real now.

Good night.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 07:02 AM
Quote
Seriously! I'm a little freaked-out here.

SVB,

Many people have had Parkenson's.
1 out of every 365 people is born on Christmas day.
1 out of every 365 people dies on Christmas day. (not every Christmas, of course, LOL.)

It's just a coincidence.

But, if it get's you to send me an email, it will be a happy coincidence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

GOOD NIGHT!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/08/06 11:06 PM
Aah, AD, what am I going to do about you??

I have to admit, I have a whole new level of admiration for you now - in light of some of this new info.

I've got some questions, too...

It's a pity you live so far away.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm divorced - 01/09/06 12:15 AM
SVB,

There's some fine guys right near where you live, I'm sure. And, they're looking for somebody like you. But, if they don't find you in half a year or so, well...

For now, I'll leave you alone.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm divorced - 01/11/06 08:53 AM
I have some thoughts that I need to unload. I generally have more than enough thoughts running through my brain at any given time, but I just got back from my divorce support group, so my thoughts are running at hyper-speed. Plus, I’ve been drinking too much diet Coke – and I had two pieces of chocolate.

Ok, here goes…

I feel God working in my life. Lately I’ve been posting about feeling down on myself – and the reasons for that. Well, tonight we discussed self-image and self-esteem in our meeting. Ahhh, just what I needed.

Mind you, this is a divorce support group through my church. This is a church I didn’t want to come back to because I thought that I wouldn’t be “accepted” as a divorced person. So, not only do they have a divorce support group (not very well advertised, though - or near my home), but I am also told that, in a situation like mine, divorce is not only NOT frowned upon, but it is encouraged!

Then, as we left the meeting, our group facilitator wanted us to randomly select a card from a deck of “affirmation” cards that she had. We have to reflect on our card during this week. Here’s mine:

I see my parents as tiny children who need love.

I have compassion for my parents’ childhoods. I now know that I chose them because they were perfect for what I had to learn. I forgive them and set them free, and I set myself free.

Wow, just what I needed to read, too. So strange that I would get a card like this after what I wrote about my mother.

Yes, God is ever-present and is watching over our lives.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 01/28/06 07:27 PM
Hi SVB,
I have been trying to write for a while now. January didn't use to be this busy.

Two weekends ago, we went to a little town in the mountains to stay the weekend, and play in the snow. I was going to write that weekend, when I had lots of spare time, but the phone line was out, and I couldn't use the dial up.

Since I don't have time to do the long post I was going to do, I'll just say that I hope you are well, and happy.

Being well this winter would reflect less stress in your life.

Of course, if you are happy, it means the stress is reduced also.

I wanted to talk about you, and your mother, and how you see yourself. Often the things we think about ourselves are driven not be reality, but by fear. We are afraid of somethig happening, or not happening, and our fears about it shape our self immage. Think about that - and tell me what you find out.

Also, most of our problems with other people are the result of self betrayal. That is, we know we should react THIS way, but we (usually out of fear also) instead react in THAT way.

Could you do things differently with your mother so that you don't fear, and you react in ways that will help her see you for who you reall are? And treat you as you want to be treated?

Again, please forgive me for being gone for so long. I continue to pray for you. If the above doesn't make sense, it's because I didn't have time to think about how to say it , I just typed it out quickly.

SS

PS, I'll be away (again) for a few days on business, the Jan and Feb have been tough.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm divorced - 04/27/06 06:51 AM
Bump
Posted By: svb1 I'm back - 05/01/06 07:25 AM
Here's an update on what I've been up to:

1. I haven't talked to my ex since 2/20. This is the longest we've gone without communicating. The last time we spoke, he said he might be coming out to Chicago sometime in April to visit. April is now officially over.

2. It has been almost a year that I've been living on my own now. Since my lease on my apartment ends in June, I bought a house (townhouse). I'll be moving on Memorial Day weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

3. I took on a part-time job. Financially, I can probably get by without it, but it helps me to feel more secure, until I find a better full-time job (I'm growing increasingly unhappy in my job). The PT job keeps me busy, and it'll help me to buy house things.... and gas.

4. So and so was a disappointment. He was not interested in me. He just wanted to be friends "with benefits." He never did ask me out. He just wanted me to invite him over for SF - with no strings attached. I told him, thanks, but no thanks, it's just not me to do something like that. I guess I'm too old fashioned. At least he was honest with me from the start. Of course, he didn't give up on me right away - he kept trying to talk me into it. He left last week to start a new job, though, so I guess I don't have to worry about him anymore.

Sigh... I haven't even officially started dating yet, and I have this experience. Is this all I have to look forward to??

and finally,

5. Lenny died on 3/1. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: milkshake Re: I'm back - 05/01/06 06:53 PM
Hi SV, good to hear from you. Sorry about Lenny... Maybe he felt you would be okay on your own now?

Don't worry about dating - you will find somenone when it is least expected!

Milk
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - 05/03/06 06:09 AM
Hi Milkshake!

I think I have a lot of catching up to do on your thread. It appears that a lot has happened in the past 3 months or so. How are you doing?

I'm sorry about Lenny, too. I like to think she's watching over me from the big fish tank in the sky. Or maybe a pond..yeah.. a pond would be better.

As for dating, I'm not actively searching for anyone. To be honest, I don't know what I want to do. Sometimes, just sometimes, I wonder if I would be better off being on my own.

Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - 05/03/06 08:00 PM
Hi!
SS smiles.
Talk first? Or go down the list?
Maybe go down the list, then talk.

1. I haven't talked to my ex since 2/20. This is the longest we've gone without communicating. The last time we spoke, he said he might be coming out to Chicago sometime in April to visit. April is now officially over.

How do you feel about this?
Facts do convey information, but not your state of mind.

2. It has been almost a year that I've been living on my own now. Since my lease on my apartment ends in June, I bought a house (townhouse). I'll be moving on Memorial Day weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lets see....... this is one of your goals, so this is a good thing. It may not be all that you want, but it's a start.
You will probably have more room. I'll tell the twins they wouldn't have to live in a closet - but then you may not have the pool, and that was a big draw for them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

3. I took on a part-time job. Financially, I can probably get by without it, but it helps me to feel more secure, until I find a better full-time job (I'm growing increasingly unhappy in my job). The PT job keeps me busy, and it'll help me to buy house things.... and gas.

- This is wondering out loud, just so you know -
Did she take the job a while ago, and that's why she hasn't been around, or is it a recent thing?
Was it mostly for money? Or to keep busy?
How is she really doing? There are a lot of gaps in the news we are getting.......

4. So and so was a disappointment. He was not interested in me. He just wanted to be friends "with benefits." He never did ask me out. He just wanted me to invite him over for SF - with no strings attached. I told him, thanks, but no thanks, it's just not me to do something like that. I guess I'm too old fashioned. At least he was honest with me from the start. Of course, he didn't give up on me right away - he kept trying to talk me into it. He left last week to start a new job, though, so I guess I don't have to worry about him anymore.

I am sooooooooooooooo glad you are old fashioned. My experience is that there are ALWAYS strings attached.

SF is a special bonding experience for the person you plan to spend forever with. It's not a casual thing - too many of our feelings are wrapped up in it.

I suppose my opinions are coming out - sorry. I'm glad you didn't fall for his lines. Glad he is gone now. I really don't think you need someone like that around.

Sigh... I haven't even officially started dating yet, and I have this experience. Is this all I have to look forward to??

Dream your dreams, then set about with all your might to make them come true. Ask God to help, and he will. Don't let a bad experience (or several) put you off from finding the joy you seek. It really can be all that you hope for.

and finally,
5. Lenny died on 3/1. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


She was a true friend - always listened with out interrupting, and she never judged you.

I am thinking 3/1 was a long time ago. I wasn't even invited to the memorial service. I'll have to think about that.
I would guess Lenny is in a nice pond. Clear water, just the right temp, and no predators or bigger fish to boss her around.

As for dating, I'm not actively searching for anyone. To be honest, I don't know what I want to do. Sometimes, just sometimes, I wonder if I would be better off being on my own.

I'm thinking about this one too. It says a lot about how much this hurt - and the "come on" guy didn't help one bit. Gives us all a bad name.

I'm going to ask a number of questions. Remember I'm not asking like your X would ask. I don't have contempt in my voice, or expect you to try to justify your actions. I ask so I can understand better - so relax and just respond naturally. This is your thread, you can always skip the questions if you don't feel like responding. With that part time job, you may not have much time.
That would be why you are posting early in the morning?


How's your mom?

Is it easier to tell her your feelings now?

Or is it still difficult, and you find you still try to humor her sometimes even when you would rather do something else?

Did you stay away from MB on purpose?

Or did it just work out that way?

Comments?
( You can laugh, I know it's funny to read some of this.)


Has your brother talked to you about how you are doing lately?
Is he helping?

How about church?

You say you are not searching for someone to date......... have you been asked since January, and did you go, and how do you feel about it?

It is good to hear from you again. I confess, I thought you had started dating someone, and were getting your need for conversation met in person.
I am wondering what brings you back - and again, this is just curiosity. It may be something you don't understand well yourself.

I remember you expressing your feelings for your dad. Somewhere there must be someone like that for you. God knows your heart, don't be afraid to ask him to lead you.

And finally -
Did you know God loves you?

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - 05/10/06 01:29 AM
Hi SS,

I'll try to fill in some gaps.

1. I haven't talked to my ex since 2/20. This is the longest we've gone without communicating. The last time we spoke, he said he might be coming out to Chicago sometime in April to visit. April is now officially over.

"How do you feel about this?
Facts do convey information, but not your state of mind."

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I guess I'm kind of curious to know why he's not calling as he used to. He used to call every 2 to 3 weeks. Sometimes I wonder if something happened to him. Personally, I have no reason to call him. Right now, I have no desire to call him, either.

I have a box of stuff I was going to mail to him. The last time we spoke, I told him I was going to mail it. He said, "No, hold on to it in case I go to Chicago in April." I think I'll mail it out now after all.

He doesn't even know about my house.

- This is wondering out loud, just so you know -
Did she take the job a while ago, and that's why she hasn't been around, or is it a recent thing?
Was it mostly for money? Or to keep busy?
How is she really doing? There are a lot of gaps in the news we are getting.......

I started my job a little over a month ago -- the middle of March. It's only part of the reason I haven't been around so much, I suppose.

I took the job mostly for the money. It was after I applied for a loan, but before I closed on the house. I wanted to be sure that I could meet all of my expenses, and still save. I know I'll have unexpected expenses. I'll probably keep the job until I find a better full-time job. I miss my old income.

I am sooooooooooooooo glad you are old fashioned. My experience is that there are ALWAYS strings attached.
SF is a special bonding experience for the person you plan to spend forever with. It's not a casual thing - too many of our feelings are wrapped up in it.
I suppose my opinions are coming out - sorry. I'm glad you didn't fall for his lines. Glad he is gone now. I really don't think you need someone like that around.

For me there would definitely be strings attached. It would not be a casual thing. I told him so, too. He thanked me for telling him that. I'm not sure why. Are there women out there that will have sex with a guy KNOWING that he only wants a casual relationship only to expect something more serious from him afterwards? That's the only thing I can think of. I should have asked him.

I thanked him, too, for being honest up front and letting me know right away that he never wants to get married again and only wants casual relationships. He could have gone about it in a totally different way -- pretending to care about me and pretending to want a serious relationship to get what he wants-- and really hurt me.

The problem is that I liked this guy. LIKE liked. My heart would skip a beat every time he entered the room. I tried sooo hard not to let any emotion show on my face when he was around -- too many others around -- nosey, gossipy others. And I KNEW he was all wrong for me. I guess I liked him because I was attracted to him and because of the attention he paid me -- even though he was only interested is SF.

I guess that's why I'm so disappointed. I wish that things could have been different. I wanted to spend time with him. I wanted to get to know him. He could have cared less about those things. I remember one particular time he called my extension at work. He hinted around about me inviting him over. Once again, I told him that I couldn't do it. He said, "ok, well, I guess maybe I'll go to the movies then." That really hurt. It was as if he was saying that I wasn't even worth taking out.

Anyway, yeah, I guess I'm glad he's gone, too. Unfortunately, he occupied too many of my thoughts for a long time. I can focus on other things now. I suppose maybe that's the other reason why I've been gone from MB for a while. I thought about coming here to post about him, but I already knew he was not the guy for me.

I'll try to take your advice and not let a couple of bad experiences ruin everything for me. Still, I'm not in any rush for any new experiences... just yet.

You say you are not searching for someone to date......... have you been asked since January, and did you go, and how do you feel about it?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> No, no dates. As you know, so and so never asked me out, officially. I was approached by a couple of different guys at the grocery store, but it took everything in me not to run away screaming. Did I mention that I was shy - especially around guys? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I barely mumbled something about "just being divorced.... not ready... blah blah." It's amazing to me that so and so was even so forward with me. Boy did he pick the wrong girl.

Actually, I think there might be a so and so #2 at work. He works on an entirely different floor. We met at a blood drive and pass each other in the halls on occasion. He has already inquired about my marital status and suggested we go out to lunch sometime. He's completely different from so and so #1. But, for me, there's nothing there. He doesn't make my stomach do flips every time I see him like so and so #1 did....sigh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So, no, no dates, and I don't plan on hopping onto eHarmony just yet. It's strange, but I told myself that I'd start to consider dating in June -- after being on my own for 1 year -- but now I'm thinking more along the lines of June 2026.

How's your mom?
Is it easier to tell her your feelings now?
Or is it still difficult, and you find you still try to humor her sometimes even when you would rather do something else?

Mom is doing pretty well, thanks.

I'm still struggling a little in keeping some boundaries, though -- particularly now with the house. She would probably take over and do everything her way in my house if I let her. I'm trying to take her help and advice, which I do appreciate, but yet not let her do too much. I have to do this without offending her. It is a very delicate situation. aaarggh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, I think that covers it all. Let me know if I left anything out.

And, once again, thanks for caring, SS.

~S
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - 05/10/06 04:52 AM
I guess I did leave out some things.

You will probably have more room. I'll tell the twins they wouldn't have to live in a closet - but then you may not have the pool, and that was a big draw for them.

They definitely wouldn't have to live in a closet, unless they really wanted to. But no, there's no pool in the townhouse complex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The community pool (and library) is not too far away, though. It's sort of in walking distance -- more like a bike ride, actually.

You know, I worried about not having a pool. I was worried that my nieces wouldn't want to come visit me w/o a pool. Is that crazy thinking? But I'm going to join the community pool. Like I said, it's still very close. From pictures, it seems very nice, with cool slides.

I don't live too far from a large water park, too. We're talking 25 water slides. I'm definitely going to take them there this summer.

I also have a view of a lake in front of my house. It's very peaceful. I saw 2 deer the other day. That made me happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am thinking 3/1 was a long time ago. I wasn't even invited to the memorial service. I'll have to think about that.

Lenny's service was nothing fancy. A burial at sea, if you will. I thought about posting an update about everything when she died, but I didn't. I'm not really sure what kept me away.

Has your brother talked to you about how you are doing lately?
Is he helping?

Regarding the divorce?? Nobody talks about it anymore. I don't think that it's really thought of much, anymore. I believe that the new house has distracted everyone, including me.

I'm really moving on.

OK, now I'm done.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 05/18/06 09:55 PM
GOOD GRIEF !!
I missed this.
Sorry - I didn't check very well.





About not talking to XH.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I guess I'm kind of curious to know why he's not calling as he used to. He used to call every 2 to 3 weeks. Sometimes I wonder if something happened to him. Personally, I have no reason to call him. Right now, I have no desire to call him, either.

I'm curious too - in a way. It could mean lots of things. I am glad you worry about him. I would have guessed you would. That means you care about others, and wish the best for them even if they hurt you. My high opinion of you is based on lots of little things like this. (Well, part of it is.) I also wonder if there is still some attachment - that would be normal given the time frame. As I think about it - I'm not sure if you would miss him, or the closeness, conversation, affection, and other things that go with marriage.

I doubt you would miss the pain, and the wondering what he was up to.


I have a box of stuff I was going to mail to him. The last time we spoke, I told him I was going to mail it. He said, "No, hold on to it in case I go to Chicago in April." I think I'll mail it out now after all.

Mail it.
My guess is that you would be tempted to put in a card, or a note wishing him well. I think that is always a good thing.
Note - I'm not trying to tell you what to do - but I am half teasing you. Kind of a backhanded compliment. It's good to follow your heart in these things.

He doesn't even know about my house.

You do need to disconnect from him.......... I think. I suppose you could be friends and keep in touch as long as you are single, and not dating. I wonder if keeping in touch with him would keep you in limbo longer though.

I started my job a little over a month ago -- the middle of March. It's only part of the reason I haven't been around so much, I suppose.

OK, I am curious. Is this something you are trained for - or just something light?

Actually, I don't know what you do at your regular job - but I don't dare ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I took the job mostly for the money. It was after I applied for a loan, but before I closed on the house. I wanted to be sure that I could meet all of my expenses, and still save. I know I'll have unexpected expenses. I'll probably keep the job until I find a better full-time job. I miss my old income.

The full time job was bad at first, then got better. Corporate culture being what it is, ( I once worked for a fortune 500 company) I would guess good people around you can make a big difference, but there are still undercurrents, and problems always in the background. It would be good for you to get a job you really liked, and at a better pay rate. Are you spending much time looking?
Don't be afraid of it - you'll do well if you change jobs. You have that aura about you even in your posts here.

For me there would definitely be strings attached. It would not be a casual thing. I told him so, too. He thanked me for telling him that. I'm not sure why.

He is polite because it serves his purposes - girls are more likely to like him if he's nice to them. He's more likely to get what he wants.

You may like him, but I don't. I consider him a predator. Oh sure, he asks right up front. But he is asking for things he shouldn't be discussing at all.

Are there women out there that will have sex with a guy KNOWING that he only wants a casual relationship only to expect something more serious from him afterwards? That's the only thing I can think of. I should have asked him.


There are many types of guys, and many types of girls. From reading on MB, it would seem the answer to your question is a yes. Story after story - but we could say heart break, after heart break, and it would be accurate.

I thanked him, too, for being honest up front and letting me know right away that he never wants to get married again and only wants casual relationships. He could have gone about it in a totally different way -- pretending to care about me and pretending to want a serious relationship to get what he wants-- and really hurt me.

It's a good time to think about the future...... right now, while we are talking about this. Most of us have some concept of heaven. We hope, but we don't dare think about it too much.

Lets say you are in a room of people, and everyone there qualifies for your concept of heaven. Not in some future time, but right then, as you are there with them. Half guys, half girls. Will one of the guys in that room will ask you for casual sex?

Search out the kind of person you want to be with forever, don't settle for someone who is asking you to betray your standards - even if he is polite while he does it. Don't think the person you are looking for doesn't exist.

OK, I sense I am creeping into lecture mode. Sorry.

You really can get what you want - believe in that. Know it's true.

The problem is that I liked this guy. LIKE liked. My heart would skip a beat every time he entered the room. I tried sooo hard not to let any emotion show on my face when he was around -- too many others around -- nosey, gossipy others. And I KNEW he was all wrong for me. I guess I liked him because I was attracted to him and because of the attention he paid me -- even though he was only interested is SF.

It may be good to understand why you liked him. It may help in the future.
I had my second daughter read HNHN when she started dating. She asked me why in the world I wanted her to read it, because she was only dating, not ready for marriage. I tried to help her understand that who she spent time with would be who she married. If she spent time with someone that wasn't right, just because she was "Only dating" she might just fall in love with him, and end up married anyway.

Do you understand why you liked him. I mean, he was probably tall, good looking, and so on, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but beyond that?

I hope you don't mind me saying some of these things. I would so much like to see you have your dreams - The good ones, not the nightmares.

I guess that's why I'm so disappointed. I wish that things could have been different. I wanted to spend time with him. I wanted to get to know him. He could have cared less about those things. I remember one particular time he called my extension at work. He hinted around about me inviting him over. Once again, I told him that I couldn't do it. He said, "ok, well, I guess maybe I'll go to the movies then." That really hurt. It was as if he was saying that I wasn't even worth taking out.

I see why you wonder if you even want to date. He sounds like XH in many ways.

What is your idea of a fun, exciting date?

Anyway, yeah, I guess I'm glad he's gone, too. Unfortunately, he occupied too many of my thoughts for a long time. I can focus on other things now. I suppose maybe that's the other reason why I've been gone from MB for a while. I thought about coming here to post about him, but I already knew he was not the guy for me.

It's interresting to read that. You want someone to care for you. You want to care for someone.......

You had hopes - that didn't work out.
I am sorry. You put a lot of your feelings out here, I hope I am not making it worse by the things I am saying. I keep praying for you......... and the dreams you must have. Sometimes God is the only one that can make things work out.


I'll try to take your advice and not let a couple of bad experiences ruin everything for me. Still, I'm not in any rush for any new experiences... just yet.

Don't be afraid to ask God straight out where to look, and what to do. To be guided......
I'm sure you understand I don't know everything. I don't pretend to know what will happen..... but, I know God is real, and he loves you. I know he knows you personally, and will help if you follow him. I know he wants you to be happy, and productive, and successful - in relationships as well as everything else.

So I know you can get help from him on this, as well as everything else in your life if you follow him, and if you ask in faith. I know he loves you from personal experiance. I found out he loves me, and that this love is universal.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> No, no dates. As you know, so and so never asked me out, officially.

I wish he was the person you are looking for, and that he asked you out. Knowing what he did want, I am glad he didn't ask you out.

I was approached by a couple of different guys at the grocery store, but it took everything in me not to run away screaming. Did I mention that I was shy - especially around guys? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I barely mumbled something about "just being divorced.... not ready... blah blah."

You shy?
Really?

So how come you can tell me all this stuff, if you are so shy?
Ok, I'm teasing again. I adimt it.
I'm shy around girls too. Lately I am getting over it, and I can talk to almost anyone these days, but it has been slow in coming.

I have a question about this last part, but it is pure curiousity.

Did you almost run away screeming because you are shy, or because of how they came across?


It's amazing to me that so and so was even so forward with me. Boy did he pick the wrong girl.

Lots of things come to mind. Most could be classed as DJ's.
A girl could say "No, and if you don't leave me alone, I'll report you to HR."

If they don't say that, the law of averages says the more times you ask, the more times you get a yes.

Please forgive me for being blunt. I know you liked (LIKED) him. I'm not trying to be mean to you, or hurt your feelings. I do understand guys a little bit. Forgive me if this makes you uncomfortable.

Actually, I think there might be a so and so #2 at work. He works on an entirely different floor. We met at a blood drive and pass each other in the halls on occasion. He has already inquired about my marital status and suggested we go out to lunch sometime. He's completely different from so and so #1. But, for me, there's nothing there. He doesn't make my stomach do flips every time I see him like so and so #1 did....sigh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Do you have any ideas why?

So, no, no dates, and I don't plan on hopping onto eHarmony just yet. It's strange, but I told myself that I'd start to consider dating in June -- after being on my own for 1 year -- but now I'm thinking more along the lines of June 2026.

2026?
That would be sad in a way. There is probably more than one guy out there looking for you. Maybe one of them will be fun, and exciting. And everything else you are looking for.



Mom is doing pretty well, thanks.

I'm still struggling a little in keeping some boundaries, though -- particularly now with the house. She would probably take over and do everything her way in my house if I let her. I'm trying to take her help and advice, which I do appreciate, but yet not let her do too much. I have to do this without offending her. It is a very delicate situation. aaarggh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


It comes with time. When you were far away, it probably wasn't much of a problem. I suspect you are still her little girl - even if you are all grown up. Be glad she loves you........ and it sounds like you are doing a good job of making your own decisions.


And, once again, thanks for caring, SS.

Remember - you really are worth it. You know I'm not making that up. Jesus was rejected and killed. That doesn't discount who he was, or how important he was. The events that happen to you, and the people that fail to treat you right don't define you either........ unless you let them.

That's all I have time for right now.

What makes a good day for you these days? What makes you smile?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/07/06 08:53 PM
Bump - And it's about time (SS laughs as he types)

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/12/06 09:47 PM
Thank you for bumping my thread, SS.

Now to carry on from Milkshake's thread.....

Hows the job?
Same one?

Yup, same job. I have been applying left and right for a new one, but I’m not getting much of a response. It’s getting to be a bit depressing.

In the meantime, I am still working my part-time job. That is basically how I spend all of my time….working. I run from one job to another - then I come home and crash. It’s partly for the money, but partly to keep busy, too. When I keep busy, the deep dark thoughts stay away. There are many times when I think about quitting my part time job, especially when it all seems too overwhelming, but I don’t. I have a co-worker, who has become a good friend, who has told me, “You can’t quit this job. If you quit this job, what would you do? You would probably sit around your house and mope.” She’s right. At least we have fun together at work. We laugh a lot. She also wants to set me up with a friend of hers. I told her I’d think about it.

"I actually just received an email reply this week about a job I applied for in Europe. The hiring manager wanted to ask me some questions. I don't think it's going to work out, though. That's OK. It's nice at least that someone "out there" is actually giving my application consideration."

So tell us what you are thinking - I thought you wanted to stay closer to home.

I guess I don’t know what I’m thinking. I do want to be closer to home. But I also think it’d be fun to live and work overseas for a couple of years.

I suppose I could always travel. We will most likely be taking a big family trip to Europe next fall – nieces and all. I can hardly wait.

Is it your mom again?

No, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I think we are doing ok. We see each other about every other weekend or so. She would probably be happier if I saw her more often. Sometimes I get a little guilt trip, but I don’t let it get to me.

What you are doing with your time - all we know is what you aren't doing. (I still feel sorry for the guys you are staying away from.) You really are worth knowing.

Thanks, SS, you made me laugh…you made me smile. That was very sweet to say. You always make me feel better. Yeah, I’m still working on the self-worth thing. Sigh.

Oh, and the fish? (My remaining 2) They’re doing very well. They thank you for remembering them.

Finally, regarding my ex, I haven't spoken to him since August... maybe September??? I can't remember. I finally mailed him a box of his stuff. He called me afterwards to thank me. We talked for about an hour. We caught up a little, and that was it. I probably gave him too much information, as always. That means that, in the past year or so, I've only spoken to him TWICE. After 15 years with the same man... 11 years married.... I only talked to him TWICE in the past year! It blows my mind. I don't miss him. I don't really think of him too much anymore... I'm too busy. I would NEVER EVER consider getting back together with him, if it were ever a possibility. I make a point of trying not to speak of him, either. When I DO speak of him, say, with my family, I don't/can't even say his name.

Ok, there's my update. Is that enough information, SS? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/13/06 05:29 AM
I guess I have a question, too.

What do I tell people about the reason for my divorce? What will I tell future dates?

1. Ex was having an affair. ---- was he, though? It was never officially proven or admitted.

2. Ex was not always a nice man. Ex was verbally and emotionally, and in the beginning of our marriage, physically abusive. ---- was he that bad, though?
I fell in love with him for a reason, right?

I don't want to make it sound as if he were the only one with the faults. "Oh, HE was the crazy one! I don't know why I married him in the first place!" I can't be blameless.

I'm embarrassed to admit that he could be abusive. What does that say about me? Why was I such an idiot to put up with it? I hear it all the time.... "Oh I would never put up with a man who abused me! If my H ever hit me, I would be OUT of the door!"

Anyway, I just wouldn't know what to say. I'd appreciate any suggestions.
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/13/06 06:21 AM
Can I get back to you on that?

For some reason, I'm really tired tonight.

Thanks for the update too - I had been wondering.

I was kind of sad when Lenny died, and I wondered how long lived the others would be.

I might........
Well, I have comments, but they won't come together well.
Probably the fatigue.

Tomorrow then?

I'll take that as a yes.

You are so quiet sometimes.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/14/06 12:55 AM
I guess I have a question, too.

What do I tell people about the reason for my divorce? What will I tell future dates?


Most people don't need to know, and you shouldn't discuss it with them.

"That was a difficult chapter in my life, and I'd prefer not to talk about it."

or

"That's something I'm not ready to talk about yet, how about we talk about something else?"

If you start dating, you can talk about it if you like the guy, and think something might happen. When you get to that point, you can mention both listed below.

1. Ex was having an affair. ---- was he, though? It was never officially proven or admitted.

All the signs were there that he was having an A. He never would open up and say what he really was doing, and he never did explain the gaps in your information.

2. Ex was not always a nice man. Ex was verbally and emotionally, and in the beginning of our marriage, physically abusive. ---- was he that bad, though?
I fell in love with him for a reason, right?


When you fell in love with him, he wasn't doing those things. Was he?
Usually abusive behavior comes out after you marry.
You tell me -
But then, I know some couples who are so in love, they don't see the red flags that others (who are outside) can see. Lets discuss this one a little bit. This could affect your self esteem - do you fear your choices in the future?

Emotional abuse is like being fed poison. We know something is wrong, but we don't know what it is. Slowly you die, but you never understand why your life is draining away. It does that to marriage. It wasn't one single thing. It was all these things added together.

If he had been willing to work on them with you, if he had been honest, then you would have stayed. I think we both know that.

See, we worry how these things look because we doubt ourselves, and our decisions.

I think if you find the right guy, it won't be difficult. If you get a jerk - don't go out with him in the first place.

No, I realize we don't always know right up front. As stated above, you can defer until you know it's right to talk about it. Don't be afraid of this part. You are a smart gal, it will come to you.

I don't want to make it sound as if he were the only one with the faults. "Oh, HE was the crazy one! I don't know why I married him in the first place!" I can't be blameless.

You can talk about failure to meet needs, and LB's that existed on both sides. It will be easier to do when you both read HNHN, and discuss it.
You will do that?
Right?

And you'll invite me to the wedding?


I'm embarrassed to admit that he could be abusive. What does that say about me? Why was I such an idiot to put up with it? I hear it all the time.... "Oh I would never put up with a man who abused me! If my H ever hit me, I would be OUT of the door!"

As we have learned on MB, people don't know what they would do until it happens. Talk is cheap.

One lesson I have learned -
Learned as in Lived, know personally, understand from personal experience.
You can't do any better than you know at the time.
We sometimes say to our selves - "If I could just go back and do this over.
If Only I knew then, what I know now."

Well, we can't go back, and we didn't know it then.

We can learn from it, and we can forgive ourselves. Sometimes I wish you had more time to think, not less. It takes thought to work through these things.

Talking to someone helps too. What ever happened to your friend from HS that was getting married? Do you still spend time with her?

Anyway, I just wouldn't know what to say. I'd appreciate any suggestions.

1. Don't discuss it with most people.

2. When you do talk, it should be with someone you are close to, and then you can share your soul. This can be a good thing.

I thought your IC would have explored all this with you, and helped you understand YOU, and your role in the marrriage. I am concerned (SS puts on his stern look)that you are still concerned.

It is good to explore our own faults, and change our own selves. However, it is also good to forgive ourselves for past mistakes when we are honestly trying, and making those changes.

Things come to mind - but I have an appointment in 10 min. (another location) so you only get two more minutes, and I may have to finish later.

Are you living the kind of life you believe you should?

If you are not, it would explain some of your self doubt.
What I mean is -
Going to church
Helping others from time to time.
Working on self improvement
Eating right
Getting exercise.
Exercising your mind.

It can be as simple as - is your life well rounded?

Tell me what you think.
All of us do better at some times, and worse at others. After reading your update, I see you have the physical things covered in your life.
How about the emotional ones?

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/14/06 05:49 AM
Hi SS, I hope you're feeling more rested.

Thanks for your reply to my question. I think you are right. I shouldn't talk about it if I don't feel comfortable. I think, perhaps, that is a big reason why I try to talk about exH as little as possible with friends and coworkers. I'm afraid that it will bring up questions that I don't want to answer. And, with the right guy...someday... I will probably feel comfortable speaking what is on my mind and in my heart.

I worry too much. I shouldn't worry about this.

I suppose I'm tired -- overall. It muddles my thinking sometimes. I know better. I look forward to discussing HNHN, etc. with the right guy in the future. I know that there are good men out there. All I have to do is remember my father, and I'm ok.

Aaargh. I have my moments when I think that what I'm looking for doesn't exist. I look around lately and it seems that all I see are players, affairs, etc. Sometimes I feel as if I'm from another planet. But, like I said before, I know better. I just have to have faith and be patient.

You're right. It doesn't help, either, that my life is very unbalanced right now. I think it does bring up my self doubt... and feelings of worthlessness.

I gotta work on that. Thanks, SS.

OK, time to go to sleep.

BTW, I would be honored to have you at my wedding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I'm back - - 12/14/06 05:31 PM
Hey SVB, nice to see you!

I remember the 1 year mark after my D. It was kinda odd, too, looking back on all that had happened. Didnt have truckloads of guys knocking down my door, ok/boring job. I think that was a settling out period, it's such a big transition from a long marriage (these days 7 yrs is long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) to being on your own. I wasnt exactly a trilling or fun time for me, but I look back now and see that I did need it. Settling into the new me, the new life. Some time for just healing! You really sound just fine to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And on the Divorce question, really, no one ever asks WHY. I got D'd 12 years ago, no one has ever asked me why. By the time you get THAT close to someone (like potential new H), you'll know what to say.

When I'm volunteering info, I say we married way too young and that 'there were a lot of problems'. Very generic. You married young, too. And I bet that was a lot of the problem, as you said, you'd never pick someone like him now. I dont know why we think we're so smart at 20 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

I hope you find something fun to do soon! Thanks for checking in. Hope your holidays are grand <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> - Dru
Posted By: milkshake Re: I'm back - - 12/14/06 07:48 PM
SVB, I think of a lot of the same things you mentioned too. Dru's point is good - WH and I married young too, and we didn't really know what it takes to maintain a good R.

Yeah I thought I knew everything at 24 too.

Milk
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/14/06 09:13 PM
When we go through hard times, there are a lot of things we learn about ourselves.

At least we do if we are thoughtful, and honest about our actions, and feelings.

I have learned that I have many faults, and that I need to improve myself. Both for me, and to be a better spouse.

It seems that the rate of improvement is slow, but my W says there is progress.

I don't do AO's any more - they went away over the last 5 years I have been using MB materials.
A DJ sometimes still sneaks in, but I usually catch it before I finish the sentence, and I apologize right away.

It makes a difference to my W that I take responsibility for my problems, and don't try to blame them on her. It's much easier for her to love me.

I am sure both of you (S, and Milk) have things you can improve on. If you are aware of what these are, and working on them then you should get credit for it.

Sometimes we give ourselves the credit, but then take it away again - "Ok, I did this right, but if I'm so great, how come H left me, and chased after someone else?"

I can't imagine how difficult it must be to work through these feelings. I know it is more difficult that I thought, because I see that you (S) are still struggling with it.

I think both of you are at times.

Perhaps Dru can comment, she seems to be through this part and doing better now. Was it mostly time Dru, or did you do specific things that helped you to cope?

Did the two of you (Milk, and S) ever get together and talk to each other in person?

Yeah I thought I knew everything at 24 too.

so did I, and I was sure of it.
It sure evaporated fast though. Now I know next to nothing.

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/15/06 06:31 AM
Hi Dru, Milk, and SS

Dru, I'm glad to hear that you think I'm doing just fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Most of the time I feel like I'm doing just fine, too. My life is pretty peaceful these days, and I'm happy overall -- I'm just busy, that's all. And, of course, I have my moments, but I guess we all do.

SS, I do struggle sometimes, but I know that I have come a long way. I have learned so much here since my whole ordeal began. I will continue to try to learn and improve myself too. My next relationship will be WAY better.

I look forward to practicing pretty soon -- maybe after the new year starts? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And you know what else makes me feel a little better, too? Ok, maybe this is silly, but the young men in my office (18-25y.o or so) think that I'm way cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I betcha they would think that my ex is a stupidhead.

And, no, Milk and I have never talked in person.... but I still do think it's a good idea.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm back - - 12/15/06 06:41 AM
Hi SVB1,

Nice to "see" you back here.

You still didn't send me an email. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure the young guys in the office are right. <sigh>
Pity (for me) I'm not one of them. The main problem, of course, is that I'm not a young guy at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

(why don't they have a :frown-wink: emoticon?)

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/15/06 07:11 AM
Hi AD!

It's nice to see you, too. I see that we're still not sleeping?? That's the bad thing that I've found about this place. I slept much more during my break from MB.

You still didn't send me an email.

I'm... uhhhh....waiting for the right moment? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pity (for me) I'm not one of them. The main problem, of course, is that I'm not a young guy at all.

Ahh, pity (for them) I'm not looking for a 18-25y.o. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, how've you been? Do you have any updates around here?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm back - - 12/16/06 07:12 PM
Update?

I've dropped a few crumbs on various threads.

XW is married to OM, 6 months PG - and just left here with our daughter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I had agreed to let her have DD this afternoon and overnight, because I hoped to have a date. But no progress there. I've got tickets to a Christmas concert in about 3 hours. Should I send my private jet to pick you up?

Oops. Sorry. Forgot. I don't have one of those. Have you?

Anyway, there's a very nice D'd lady in my church that I'm trying to ... what am I trying to do anyway? I"ve been trying to work out a way to get together with this lady for a month or more. Kids and schedules and maybe she's just putting me off. I don't know.

I'm on eHarmony sometimes. I'm cool to eH right now. Sometimes I warm up to it, but they always match me with people who live far away - not as far as Chicago, LOL. But, you would think - they have a setting for that, and I said "30 miles" and they still match me with ladies 300+ miles away.

Last night eHarmony sent me a message that something in one of my communications "violated the terms of service" - and I was going to be locked out. I was really hurt by that. The objectionable message was one in which I asked one lady to consider meeting me at a Christmas concert at a church - in broad daylight. I called and talked to customer service who applogized nicely and gave me a free month - said it was a mistake and they'll fix it. Apparently there is some program which analyses every message sent and looks for problems. I didn't sign up for eHarmony so that a computer could insult my honor.

Thanks for giving us an update. I agree with SS. <grin> Perhaps you are working too much right now. But I think that's OK for a while - as long as you don't put yourself in debt so that you have to work two jobs to pay the debts. But you know that already and I'm sure you're not doing that.

The sun is shining and it's 70 degrees here! I wish I had somebody to go for a walk with.

<sigh>

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/16/06 08:51 PM
XW is married to OM, 6 months PG

Yikes...are you ok with all of this?

Oops. Sorry. Forgot. I don't have one of those. Have you?

No, unfortunately, I don't. But maybe I can fly down on my magic carpet. No..wait... I don't have one of those, either.

I've watched too many Disney movies.

I've thought about starting with eHarmony. I actually started the personality test.... about 6 months ago, but I never finished it. I thought, "but as soon as I finish the test, I might actually have to start meeting guys!" Then I panicked and never went back. Maybe it's time to go back.

As for working too much. I definitely am. I think I'm going to change that in the New Year, too. I'm going to either cut back my hours or quit entirely. Then I think I might sign up for a class. As for debt... I'm ok...really. I'm financially responsible -- I promise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care, AD. I hope you get to enjoy your nice weather. I am about to drive down to my mother's. My brother is in town to drop off my nieces. We'll be having yummy Chicago-style pizza tonight.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm back - - 12/17/06 04:47 AM
Quote
Yikes...are you ok with all of this?

I don't really have any choice in the matter.

It's strange. I feel better about it than I imagined. I thought that I would not be able to stand to see my ex in her (um) "condition" - and was going to hire a driver to pick up my daughter every week - but for some reason, I'm just numb to it. I pray for her and her child.

XW is not doing very well. She doesn't live with her OM/H. DD doesn't know that her Mom is married, but she does know she's getting a little brother. She (DD) prayed for a little brother or sister and is pretty pleased with her success at praying.

XW has had a difficult pregnancy and some interactions with other health problems. She may be put on bed rest. I don't know how that's going to play out. I may get extra time with DD.

Quote
I've thought about starting with eHarmony. I actually started the personality test.... about 6 months ago, but I never finished it. I thought, "but as soon as I finish the test, I might actually have to start meeting guys!" Then I panicked and never went back. Maybe it's time to go back.

You can meet guys anywhere. I think there are twice as many women as men on eHarmony, tho they will not admit it. I looked at some other stats they published from some user surveys and just figured it out from that.

I think they send me matches that I don't want just because they want to match the woman with somebody.

Also, they match you with zombies - people who signed up, but never paid and never came back. They won't easily admit that they match people with non-subscribers who can't communicate, but all the personals services do that. They use the paying customers as bait for the new people - hoping to lure you in by saying "Susie is waiting to communicate with you. Just subscribe now, and your new life can begin" or something like that. But Susie may not have paid yet either - and can't communicate with you.

I suppose I'm rather down on eHarmony right now.

I did meet a couple of nice ladies there a month or so ago, but the one I was intersted in is 100 miles away and it's hard to work that in with my parenting obligations. So, I put her on hold. She gave me her phone number, but I just stuck to email.

I was thinking about it today. In my entire life, I've called 5 different women/girls to ask for a date. One of them I married. (Well, actually, that relationship did not start with a phone call.) So I've married 20% of the women that I asked for a date. Pretty scarey!

Oops, I forgot the current lady of interest - that would make 6, so my stats are going down.

Most guys find it difficult, but I think I'm worse than most.

So, I still haven't had a date since my divorce. I could have, if I wanted to drive a little. I'd really like to have somebody local that I could see on weeknights - or meet for lunch.

Enough about that. This is your thread.

Quote
As for debt... I'm ok...really. I'm financially responsible -- I promise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I knew you were.

Quote
Take care, AD. I hope you get to enjoy your nice weather.

Thanks. I did. The concert was beautiful. I'm sure I would have earned some points for taking a girl to that. LOL

I hope you have a pleasant time with your family pizza dinner.

-AD
Posted By: Drucilla Re: I'm back - - 12/18/06 04:47 PM
Quote
Hi Dru, Milk, and SS

Dru, I'm glad to hear that you think I'm doing just fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Most of the time I feel like I'm doing just fine, too. My life is pretty peaceful these days, and I'm happy overall -- I'm just busy, that's all. And, of course, I have my moments, but I guess we all do.

SS, I do struggle sometimes, but I know that I have come a long way. I have learned so much here since my whole ordeal began. I will continue to try to learn and improve myself too. My next relationship will be WAY better.

HI SVB,

I hope you dont think I was being glib or superficial... I do think that the first year after a D is a transitional year. Like you said, not too fantastic, but also not too horrible... And I think if you are in that middle ground, then you are doing pretty darned good!! Give yourself some credit - for all you've been through, the D, the move, new job... Good is GREAT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Those are like the top three of life's big stressors, you know.

I'm taking off for the holidays, back after the new year. I hope your holidays are lovely <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> - Dru
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/18/06 11:05 PM
I hope you had fun with the nieces.
Your weekend was good?


Are you taking much time off at Christmas?
With two jobs, it could be a lot or work. (Pun intended.)

I am glad you are considering accepting dates soon.
Does your church have a good singles program?

I am sure there are many good men out there, just as there are many good women. The big question is (of course) how do you find them, and how do you know?

In my experience, the closer you are to God the easier it will be for you. I hope you are working on that part of your life as well as the other important things.

Your tip for the day -
Don't let the fish out for a "pit stop" and then leave them on the pourch. I fear they would be "cold" to you for quite some time.

OK, I know all you have to do is clean the tank. That was the best I could do on short notice.

Hi AD !

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/19/06 06:03 AM
Hi AD,

I don't really have any choice in the matter.
It's strange. I feel better about it than I imagined.

You do sound pretty well considering the situation. As for me, it makes me thankful that I don’t have to deal with exH anymore. I couldn’t bear news like that. You’re a tough guy, AD. But then again, maybe I’d be surprised, too, about how I’d actually take the news.

XW is not doing very well. She doesn't live with her OM/H. DD doesn't know that her Mom is married, but she does know she's getting a little brother.

I don’t understand this situation. Where is her OM/ H? Will they live together eventually? OK, I asked, but then again, you might not know, either.

I suppose I'm rather down on eHarmony right now.

I’m not sure what to do. My good friend from back in Philly just married a man that she met on eHarmony. It was the second man that she actually went out with from eHarmony. That means, statistically speaking, that she married 50% of the men that she went out with from that website. (I’m a numbers person, too.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do you live in a not too densely populated area? Could that be the problem?

So, I still haven't had a date since my divorce.

That makes you and me both – although I haven’t technically put myself on the market yet.

Let me give you a run down of my experiences with men since my D.

- I was approached by So and So … who only wanted me to be his “friend with benefits.”
- I think I might have received an “indecent proposal” by a MM coworker. (I’m too shocked and horrified to even talk about it yet --- I’m still trying to pretend that it never happened – or that he didn’t mean what he might have meant.)
- I was approached my a couple of guys that were like, “heeeey baby, should we talk?”

Which leads me to SS's great question (Hi SS)-

I am sure there are many good men out there, just as there are many good women. The big question is (of course) how do you find them, and how do you know?

Yes, that is my burning question.

No, SS, my church does not have a good singles program, and no, I am not working that part of my life as well as I should right now. Actually, the pretty much only area I'm focusing on is WORK.

I wasn't planning on taking any additional time off for the holidays, I am actually working more, but maybe I should reconsider.

I guess it's pretty clear what I need to do. Maybe then everything else will fall into place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for my fish, I think one of them is sick... the big guy.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Drucilla,

No, I didn't think that you were being glib or superficial. I always value what you have to say. You have been where I am and you KNOW.

Yes, good is FANTASTIC. I could always be worse, and I am thankful for many things, despite everthing.

I hope you enjoy your holidays, too.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm back - - 12/19/06 06:45 AM
SVB1,

Yes, I'm sure the size of the metro area makes a huge difference.

My metro area is about 250,000 people.

Where you live has as many or more people as my metro area + Nashville + Birmngham + Chattanooga.

... and I just sent an email to a lady in B-ham. I don't know why. She sent her phone number and now I don't know what to do with it.

-AD

PS. Hi, SS!

PPS. I'm sorry about your fish. I hope (s)he will recover quickly!
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/20/06 09:26 PM
AD said:
... and I just sent an email to a lady in B-ham. I don't know why. She sent her phone number and now I don't know what to do with it.

Honestly, I can't believe some people can be engineers, and don't know how to dial the phone.

I'm half teasing, but only half.

My oldest daughter dated a lot of boys while she was in HS. She and her friends had a pact. They wouldn't go out with any one boy more than one time unless it was a group setting (meaning a dance, or a party.) She dated lots of boys, had a good time, and never got serious until she was half way through college and ready for marriage. (Well, as ready as one can be - marriage being what it is.)

I recommend the same for you AD. Meet Girls, and talk to them. Most of them don't bite - at least not hard.

As for S - that's for another post.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/20/06 10:15 PM
Quote
Which leads me to SS's great question (Hi SS)-

I am sure there are many good men out there, just as there are many good women. The big question is (of course) how do you find them, and how do you know?

Yes, that is my burning question.

No, SS, my church does not have a good singles program, and no, I am not working that part of my life as well as I should right now. Actually, the pretty much only area I'm focusing on is WORK.

I hope you don't mind if I relate some personal opinions about meeting the right person - which some may call "good luck."

Sometimes we are lucky - or unlucky.
Examples of bad luck could be being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and getting in a car accident - being hit by a drunk driver, or by someone running a red light. '

Sometimes we are the recipient of good luck. I found a quarter on the parking lot the other day - I know it's not worth much, but it made me smile.

I believe that mostly though, we create our own luck.

Those who prepare them selves for success, have more success.

I was probing when I asked about singles programs at church. If you want a person who shares your values, you go to where you are most likely to find people with those values.

I want to encourage you to attend church. It can do two things -
1. You might get good leads. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2. God does help us more when we seek after him with all our hearts.

Sometimes we think our dreams are better, or more important than what God has planned for us. Or we don't give it much thought, and fill our time because it's easier that way.

God wants us to be happy, and doing things his way will bring us more happiness than any thing else we can do. Sometimes it's hard though.

It's hard to know what he wants, and it is often hard to DO what he wants once we find that out.

So, I admit I wondered about you SVB. I wondered if you were going to church. I wondered if you were praying for guidance. I wondered if you were staying away from dating because of these bad experiences, if you are not ready yet, or just why.

There are lots of reasons I can think of for both Ad, and S to stay away from it - however all of these reasons are based in fear.

I think of all our fears, fear of the unknown must be high on the list for all of us as being the worst one.

I do think about this, and I wonder how to best encourage you. I think you are a wonderful person, who doesn't know just how good she is, or how much better she can be with just a few changes.

Often we stay where we are because it's what we know - and it's comfortable, even if it's not all we want.

Don't be afraid to dream. I was serious when I said I feel sorry for the boys who don't get to date you. Not the jerks of course, but those who try to do what's right. Those who want to follow God, those who care about others, and who do the best they can with the light they possess.

One of the best ways to find someone is to make your self into the kind of person that this "dream person" would want to be with. When you are being the best "you" that you can be, it's not so hard to imagine that special person being interested in you. It's easier to go out, and have a good time (the right kind of good time) and see what happens.

Ah - I go on sometimes.


I wasn't planning on taking any additional time off for the holidays, I am actually working more, but maybe I should reconsider.

Depends on what your goal is. If you need to keep busy, then work. I understand - and you should do what you think best.

I guess it's pretty clear what I need to do. Maybe then everything else will fall into place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It sounds like you understand. I encourage you to be the best you that you can be.
S, believe in yourself. If you could see yourself as I see you, I think you would be much more sure of having that future you dream of - when you let yourself dream.

As for my fish, I think one of them is sick... the big guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I can't remember the others names, only Lenny. I know Lenny (the girl) passed away.

I've never had fish, so I don't know what they do when they are sick.

It's not morning sickness, is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ad,
Do you think we should invite S on our next camping trip?
What with the twins (They are girls S, just so you know) and my W, I am sure she would feel safe going. Sometimes I think she needs to get out more.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm back - - 12/21/06 02:06 AM
Quote
Ad,
Do you think we should invite S on our next camping trip?
What with the twins (They are girls S, just so you know) and my W, I am sure she would feel safe going. Sometimes I think she needs to get out more.

SS

SVB1,

When SS says "out", he means OUT - to a place big enough to hold the city where you live, but which has no permanent residents, and might, any given moment, contain 0 to 10 people.

Sure, SS, it would be fine with me, but I'd better leave my DD at home. She always wants to go to the tent as soon as dinner is over (and she wants take me too). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

With appologiese to SVB, who's thread I've not forgotten this is, I say to SS, that I agree with much of what you have said. But telling me to "date a lot of girls", is like telling a janitor to "buy a lot of stock". Nevertheless, I've been thinking lately (like for the past 3-4 days, LOL) that I should just make a date with anybody who is willing - just for practice. That seems dishonest to me - since I could get a date with somebody that I know that I'm not interested in.

There's about 3 ladies on eHarmony who might date me once - none of them in my city. (Ok, 2 of them I've not communicated with for more than a month.) I could start by calling them, since 2 have sent their phone numbers and plainly said that they prefer to talk on the phone rather than email.

There's a girl at the office that a couple of the guys were trying to fix me up with. Apparently, she's interested. She's a good worker, everybody says.
For whatever reason, my only interest in her would be theoretical. I don't know how to explain that, since there's really nothing wrong with her. But still, I could eat lunch in the conference room rather than going home for lunch every day - and get to know that lady a little. <sigh> That's all that was requested of me, actually.

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: I'm back - - 12/22/06 11:15 PM
AD,
Get to know her. Talk to her - and be friends at least. You can keep your distance but still talk to her.

You two have a good holiday weekend.

AD,
Notice that S is quiet now.
There is a reason for that - I'll be still for a while, and let her respond.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: I'm back - - 12/24/06 04:53 AM
Quote
AD,
Notice that S is quiet now.
There is a reason for that - ...
SS

Yup. I noticed. I thought the most likely reason was that she was not reading here.

SBV1,

Sometime, if you have time, I'd like to have a discussion about the nature of shyness. It would be helpful, perhaps, to air the differing perspectives of shy men and women.

You did say you considered yourself shy. Right?

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: I'm back - - 12/26/06 07:25 AM
Hello...

I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas.

I know I've been quiet. Sorry. I have peeked in here on occasion throughout the week -- but not since Friday night. Been thinking about what to say, I suppose.

SS, why do you think I've been away? Just curious. Did you think you scared me away? You might have, a little.

Ad,
Do you think we should invite S on our next camping trip?
What with the twins (They are girls S, just so you know) and my W, I am sure she would feel safe
going. Sometimes I think she needs to get out more.

Camping with y'all would be fun.

BUT...

I have not ever been camping before - unless you count sleeping in a tent in your own backyard. You would have a serious rookie on your hands.

And, yes, you might recall that I was in the military. HOWEVER, at the end of boot camp, when you're supposed to have your 3 day field training exercise --- I was in the hospital with the chicken pox. I was in bed eating ice cream and watching movies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

AD,

Sometime, if you have time, I'd like to have a discussion about the nature of shyness. It would be helpful, perhaps, to air the differing perspectives of shy men and women.

You did say you considered yourself shy. Right?

Yes, I do consider myself to be shy. Though I suppose that I am shy at first until I warm up to someone. I am also more shy around men and large groups of people.

What's on your mind, AD?
Posted By: _AD_ Shyness - 12/26/06 05:30 PM
Quote
What's on your mind, AD?

Well, uh, ... <stammered AD>...

Let's start with a safe topic, my daughter.

People have observed that she is very shy. One daycare worker said a few years ago that she was the shyest 3-year-old she had ever had. So, the first question is "Is shyness genetically determined?"

The next question is "What is it, exactly?"

I think that shy people are trying to figure everything out before they jump in. The more people present, the more difficult the task - so that in group of a certain size, the shy person will be silent. (S)he feels the need to understand each person present - and the relationships between all the people - before saying anything.

I don't know why this would be so.

What do you think, S?

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Shyness - 12/27/06 06:46 AM
"Is shyness genetically determined?"

I think that shyness is a part of your personality. If that's the case, it's probably determined by both your genes and your upbringing. (maybe more genes than upbringing.) ??

The next question is "What is it, exactly?"

I'm not sure, exactly. I know that I definitely like to think things through before I ever say anything ( for the most part. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) I also tend to worry very much about what others think of me. I want people to like me, and I want their approval. With a larger group of people, yes, there is much more to analyze, which I do, but, to me, there also seems to be much more of a chance to meet disapproval. Therefore, it is easiest to keep quiet. Quiet = safe.

Those are my thoughts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope they make sense, because I'm awfully tired.
Posted By: milkshake Re: Shyness - 12/27/06 04:04 PM
Hi SVB, hope you had a nice Christmas.

Hmm, shyness, what an interesting topic. People have never described me as shy, but I can be shy in a large group of people or at a party where I don't really know the people. And SVB, wow, I am just like you in that I often catch myself being shy because I am afraid of NOT being liked by or NOT getting approval from others.

BUT I don't get the impression that you are extremely shy on this board. I think a little bit of shyness is actually GOOD - it keeps you from acting in a very stupid way or can help you stay modest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Milk
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Shyness - 12/28/06 02:15 AM
SVB,

Yes, "quiet = safe". I know what you mean.
But is it really safe?

I hope you are only tired because you have two jobs - and not because you had the additional burden of figuring out how to reply to questions on a forum on the WORLD WIDE web. LOL

Billions are watching and waiting as we write. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It seemed like a good idea to launch this discussion a couple of days ago, but now...I don't know what to write next.

OK, I've got a date set for Saturday - in a city 100 miles away. This was arranged by email. I still have not called the lady. It is insane that I can't force myself to call a lady who has already agreed to meet me for lunch. Isn't it?

Quiet == safe.

Instead, I called my brother, but he didn't answer. I called my ex-wife to talk about some video I gave my daughter for Christmas. Actually, I was just lonely. Her answer: "She didn't watch it yet. Gotta go fix supper. I'll call you later. bye."

95% of the time when ex-w says "I'll call you later", she doesn't.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm whining here. I just wish I understood myself.

I wish we had choir practice tonight. They gave us the week off. I miss it.

Milk,

Writing is different, at least for me it is. It's easier than talking to people. Do you agree SVB?

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 05:58 AM
Billions are watching and waiting as we write.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

OK, well, it was nice knowing you guys, but good bye forever. I won't be posting here anymore.

Milk,
Writing is different, at least for me it is. It's easier than talking to people. Do you agree SVB?

I totally agree. I can be myself when I write, and take my time, and think about what I want to say. If I were with any of you in person, you would probably not be able to get 2 words out of me -- well, maybe not at first, anyway.

AD, sometimes I wonder if you and I have the same personality type. Have you ever taken the Myers-briggs personality test? I am an ISTJ. I have taken this test probably a thousand times in my lifetime, and I always end up being an ISTJ. If you do a search on the Internet for "portrait of an ISTJ" that is me .... to a T.

Have you talked to your lady friend yet?
Posted By: still seeking Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 06:40 AM
ISFJ

Here's the Myers-Brigg's link
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

More later -

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 06:44 AM
Oh, and I'm sure you'll want this link too -

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm
Posted By: milkshake Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 05:21 PM
Hmm, very interesting test. How many different types do they have?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 06:16 PM
Well, I don't put much confidence in such classifications, but I just took the test in SS's link (thanks, SS!) and the result was

INTJ - "Mastermind Rational"

... whatever that means. <AD laughs sinisterly>

Here's what they say it means - doesn't sound much like me. For one thing, I'm principled, for another, if I am a "natural leader", I have been living a most unnatural life, since basicly nobody follows me.

http://keirsey.com/personality/ntij.html

-AD

PS. Milk, I was wondering the same thing.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 06:19 PM
... and No, SVB1, I've not talked to her, but she has a sense of humor. In an email, she asked if was going to talk at lunch or if I would be bringing my keyboard. I replied that I would bring two computers and we would sit on opposite sides of the restaurant connected by a wireless link. LOL

Now, I don't have to call, since it would spoil the effect.

Gee. I hope she shows up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

-AD

PS. Ex-W did call back, and so did my bro.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 06:31 PM
The reason writing is different, is that writing is about the words, not about the people. I can look at the words on the screen (paper is a dim memory now isn't it) and think "how nice they look. I'm such a smart fellow." And if they don't look nice, I can delete them and I'm still smart fellow. Or I can save them and never send them, and go look at them again later and I'm still a smart fellow. Can't lose. LOL

But in a conversation, one word down the wrong path and I'm toast. Outrage erupts (especially if I'm talking to XW) - other words are exchanged, the original topic now forgotten, disorder, even chaos ensues. Any meanwhile, the other person (especially if it is XW) speaks 10 times as many words as I do - since my mother taught me not to interrupt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<sigh>

Where was I?

-AD

PS. SS, did you notice that both the links you posted are the same?
Posted By: still seeking Re: Shyness - 12/29/06 08:23 PM
No, I didn't notice - I'll check it out. The 2nd one was supposed to be to the marriage compatibility part of it.

AD, I wonder if experiences with XW colored your relationship with women/girls. All of them are not like her, but it's hard to make the change in your mind when that's what you were used to.

S has had similar experiences lately with men, and I think it's really difficult for her to want to date after what she 's been through.

AD,
I know from spending time with you that you are thoughtful, and a real gentleman. It was plain to see that the relationship you had wasn't anything like the one W and I have - an equal partnership with give and take. I don't mean to say yours was all bad, but you can compare what you saw when you were here, and draw your own conclusions. Logic says there is another gal out there that is more like W, but with the other qualities you look for also. Emotion however would probably lead you to shy away.

I like words on the screen too AD, but in person is so much better for me. You can see a persons face, and hear their tone of voice which things communicate a lot on their own, even without words.

- Didn't someone say "the eyes are the window to a person's soul." Expression's tell a lot and it's hard to hide things for most people. S's dad however was a real poker face, and he was hard to read sometimes.
(SS sometimes goes out on a limb without facts to support his musings.)

You are off work today AD?

I'll post this one, and comment on some others.

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Shyness - 12/30/06 04:49 AM
SS, why do you think I've been away? Just curious. Did you think you scared me away? You might have, a little.

My comment was kind of vague, but it was an invitation of sorts. I guessed you might have a hard time knowing what to say, and that your response would be to just watch for a while.

You understand that I don't know everything, but I am learning and as I watch people, I learn even more.

What it tells me -

Two things .

First, you are very careful now. In person you may tend to get tongue tied, and be afraid of not being able to come up with the right reply. On MB, you can just wait.

2nd, you are still trying to find courage to interact with men on anything but a professional basis. I wonder if part of not going to church regularly is because it's easier to stay away, and not worry about what you say, and who you may have to say it to.

It is hard to read some of the bad experiences you have had and what some men have said to you. The bible is right about how the world will be in our day. It makes me wonder what my daughters put up with out in the world that they might not talk about.

S, did you work Christmas day?

What are your feelings as you have gone through the holiday season this year?

And my last question for this post -

Do you like eggnog?

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Happy New Year - 01/01/07 01:55 AM
SVB, I wish a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and your family.

-AD
Posted By: milkshake Re: Happy New Year - 01/02/07 04:54 PM
Happy New Year SVB!

Milk
Posted By: svb1 Re: Happy New Year - 01/02/07 08:42 PM
Happy New Year to you guys, too!

I had a good New Year's this year. I was at the Chicago Bears game when you posted, AD. Then I watched the fireworks downtown and spent yesterday downtown with my friend. I'm not a real big football fan, but my friend got tickets and we've never gone before... so we thought it'd be a fun thing to do for New Year's Eve.

I think my mom is still getting over it -- that I wasn't with her -- although I was there Saturday night for my niece's birthday party and half of the day on Sunday until my brother and his family left town.

Today I am off from work - well during the day, anyway, so now I am relaxing.... ahhhhh.

I already have good news for the New Year, too. I've landed a new job. I was selected employee of the month, and now I found out I got a promotion, too. So, I will be working in the same place, just in a different building, with different people....and more $$$. I don't know when I start yet, though.

I'm cutting down my part time hours for now. I've already asked my mgr. After a while, I'll probably quit working part time entirely.

I will be getting some of my life back in 2007. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Then, when I quit my part time job, I can start seriously looking for................................................ a puppy.

SS, everything that you mentioned in your last post was
exactly correct.

The Holidays this year didn't feel like the Holidays again. Everything is still so different, but not bad. Also, I've been so busy, they just flew by. It was all just a blur. I didn't work Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, btw. I spent Christmas Eve with my friend (same friend) and Christmas Day with my family. I was warned not to go to my mom's for Christmas... we almost postponed it.... because my mom and nieces had the flu pretty badly, but I went anyway. We still had a nice time.

And I love egg nog. I'm not crazy about candy canes, though, unless I melt them in hot chocolate. mmmmmm

How were your Holidays?
AD, how did Saturday go....if I may ask.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/03/07 01:40 AM
Svb1,

It sounds like you had a fine time! That's great!

Hmmm. SS is exactly correct? OK.

How did Satuday go, you asked.

Hmmm.. It went OK. It was a lunch followed by coffee. The restaurant and cafe were next door to each other.

OK is good, I guess.

I think I made a good impression, since she invited me to a concert at her church on Sunday - to which I didn't commit and didn't go. For two reasons - 1) I felt that spending New Years eve with somebody I just met might send the wrong message - might build up too much expectations (in her mind). And also 2) I didn't relish driving 4 hours on New Years eve - with the drunks on the road.

Then, she sent me an email inviting me down for dinner on New Years Day. Fortunately, due to some email snafu, I didn't recieve it until too late.

But... well... I wasn't "wowed" by her, not that I expected to be, nor do I think there is anything wrong with her. I just don't know what I want. I can't imagine getting close to her, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. The main thing that particulary impresses me about her is that she has raised an outstanding son up to age 14 by herself. A person like that could be good for my daughter.

AAAAGGGGHH. This stuff is hard. One thing that's hard about it - is to be honest with myself about how I really feel. I wanted to like her. And I certainly respect her - and that goes a long way.

Why is beauty important?

And about eggnog... my Mom always used to buy some (in a carton) and we cerimolially (sp?) drank it - with grated nutmeg sprinkled on top. I always associate nutmeg with eggnog - and never have used it for anything else. I didn't buy any this year.

Do you like nutmeg?

-AD
Posted By: still seeking Re: Happy New Year - 01/03/07 04:54 AM
Why is beauty important?

Sounds like you have identified one of your needs AD.

I would like to know what beauty is. I bet that is part of why it's important .

I remember SVB said once there was a guy that seemed to like her, but she didn't feel much for him. Was this part of it S? Was it looks, or something else, and can you even identify it?

I asked the eggnog question just to change the subject, and maybe to get the rest of you to smile. I like it from a carton too - but only some brands. I admit these days I mix it with a little milk, so it's not quite so strong.

AD, my SIL makes a great home made version that has nutmeg in it. It's really rich though - and drinking too much affects my girlish figure.

Now.......... let's see........... Oh yes -

It is so wonderful that you got a raise !!
And employee of the month too !

I hope the job is more to your liking. But then, the one you had was better once some of the people were replaced. I sure hope the men in the other building are more respectful, more kind, and that you don't have to worry about things they say.

Looking for a puppy?
You sucked me right in with that one.
Whatever you wish - you are the boss after all. Sigh, I just keep thinking of those guys........ the ones that wish they could find you and go out with you.

It does sound like you had a good time. Games are exciting, even if you are not a die hard sports fan. You kind of get caught up in the excitement. At least I usually do.
I admit I'm not much of a sports fan myself.

What was the most fun for you?


I think I have some serious stuff to say too, but the twins want a story tonight - so I think I'll read them one, even though they can read quite well themselves.

Night everyone.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/05/07 04:39 AM
Oops! Yes. Congratulations on the move up the corporate ladder.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Happy New Year - 01/05/07 11:23 PM
The Holidays this year didn't feel like the Holidays again. Everything is still so different, but not bad.

This continues all your life. It changes depending on what you are doing, and depending on the other changes that take place. After a while, you realize what is going on, and you don't mind. You adjust to the changes, learn to enjoy the different stages of life, and you have a good time anyway. It sounds like you are having a good time anyway, and that is real progress.

I sometimes wonder if I ought to say some of these things, but I usually say them anyway.

We all know smoking if bad for us - for you, for anyone.

If I was to pick up a cigarette, and smoke it, not having smoked before, it wouldn't hurt me much. That ONE wouldn't hurt very much at all.

The danger, is that I would try another, and another, and become hooked.

I think this is the same with many who divorce, and live alone for a while. It becomes comfortable, it's habit forming, and it's hard to change what we are used to. It's not bad in and of it's self, but if your desire is to be happily married, you do well to break out of the habit, and date people. One day of not dating doesn't change your life much at all. Two days, a week, month, or a year could be OK. At this point, you are adjusting, healing emotionally, learning things you need to learn.

There comes a point though, when you have to think about what you want, and if you are getting there or not.

I don't see my job as telling people what they want, but I do see myself in the role of helping them reach their goals, once they figure out what those goals are.

Smile, and tell me what your goals are -

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Happy New Year - 01/06/07 07:00 AM
AD, thanks for the congrats. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I officially accepted the position yesterday, but I haven't heard anything yet on my start date.

Regarding your date, it does sound like you made a very good impression on her. But as for her asking you to New Years Eve and/or New Years Day, it does sound like too much too fast. It certainly would scare me off. But then again, everything scares me off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And beauty, huh. I gather that you didn't find her very attractive? It does sound to me, too, that you've identified one of your needs. But I think that beauty is more important to guys than to gals. SS, you asked me about that one fellow. I think that looks was one part of it, but it was more than just his looks -- I just can't put my finger exactly on what it was/is. Remember so and so? I don't think that most people would consider him to be handsome (as many would probably consider my ex) but yet there was something about him that I found absolutely adorable.

As for eggnog, yes, I like nutmeg, but I'll definitely drink eggnog w/o it, too. I don't know what else you use nutmeg for, either. I also like eggnog shakes from McDonald's. (Hi Milkshake!) I also had a Fannie May eggnog truffle today -- but only one.

I sometimes wonder if I ought to say some of these things, but I usually say them anyway.

SS, please say anything that comes to your mind.

You are right again. Exactly correct. You know that one of my goals is to find that special someone. I really don't want to spend the rest of my life alone. But there's that paralyzing fear thing. Dating?? Did I say PARALYZING fear?
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/06/07 10:30 PM
PARALYZING fear is a familiar companion, not a constant companion, but certainly familiar.

But what is feared?

Normal stuff : rejection, betrayal etc.

Plus ... fear of disappointing somebody, fear of hurting somebody, etc.

If somebody thinks I'm somethin' - then fear that they'll discover that I'm not.

etc.

One lady on eHarmony wrote (in her profile) "I just want a regular, normal guy". I liked the sound of that, then I got to thinking and realized that I'm not one of those. LOL. I don't watch football (or TV at all). I don't hunt. I don't drink beer. I drink hot tea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> etc.

I think I could hunt, and buy a TV and watch football, if it would help. I really wouldn't mind.

SS, and speaking of habits... one hour at the computer on a Saturday afternoon wouldn't hurt, but ...

Back to my DD now.

-AD
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/06/07 11:28 PM
I'm back.

I wanted to ... well, somehow manipulate you all into thinking that I'm not so shallow as to care what a lady looks like. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> After all, I look like a typical dumpy middle-aged white guy. I've got nothing to trade for.

Anyway, the lady from last Saturday is OK. We exchanged a few emails this week. She has a sense of humor, and that's worth something.

<sigh>

Why am I writing about this here, on SVB's thread? Yikes!

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Happy New Year - 01/07/07 12:30 AM
I think I could hunt, and buy a TV and watch football, if it would help. I really wouldn't mind.

Don't you dare change who you are. You are going to find a lady who probably likes the fact that you don't watch football or drink beer and that you like hot tea.

I think it's pretty cool that you drink hot tea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To me, your statement should not be:
I drink hot tea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
It should be:
I drink hot tea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

What kind of tea do you like?

I wanted to ... well, somehow manipulate you all into thinking that I'm not so shallow as to care what a lady looks like. After all, I look like a typical dumpy middle-aged white guy. I've got nothing to trade for.

OK, you've manipulated me. I'm easily manipulated, you know.

Why am I writing about this here, on SVB's thread? Yikes!

Please don't stop posting on my thread. I like sharing it. Write whatever you feel like writing.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/07/07 05:27 AM
Quote
What kind of tea do you like?

Well, right now, I'm craving some Lapsang Souchong, but I haven't had any in a few years.

Quote
Please don't stop posting on my thread.

OK. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/10/07 06:08 AM
In the cavernous silences of the world wide web, AD cleared his throat.

"Eh-eh"

The dull sound echoed briefly against the boundaries of the electronic frontier ... then all returned to silence.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Happy New Year - 01/10/07 06:33 AM
You are being coached by one of the best AD, so pay attention. (meaning coached by SVB, not myself)

She's trying to figure out if she likes coaching, and if it's safe. She'll nod yes when she reads this and she'll come back with her marvelous sense of humor, and wow us both.

She just needs to know that we respect her for who she is, and that she's safe. There are too many men in the world (and in her personal past) who wanted something. She's just being careful.


Subject change -

AD, you have been hurt too. I think you also need to understand that this thread is safe for you.

One of the reasons I can come and go - and write what I write, be impartial, and appear to read S's mind, is that I am not invested in this. I can't really be hurt here. My heart is not on the line.
Neither of you can say that.

Does that make sense ?

I am not sure which poster said it first, but it has been repeated more than once -

What would you do if you were not afraid? What would you say? What would be different about your interactions here?

I could say lots more, but if I say too much, then S is afraid to write lest I see more of her than she wants seen. I have to be careful what I write, and how I write it.

Trust is an interesting thing. You can trust someone, but still keep part of yourself back. If you look into it, you often find that it is YOURSELF that you don't trust.

How am I doing S?

Is this helping ???

SS
Posted By: svb1 Re: Happy New Year - 01/11/07 06:25 AM
Hi AD and SS

Sorry about the silence AD. Hee hee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've worked the past few nights and I'm sooo tired. It has been crazy at work (part time). We're very short-handed and barely have time to even take breaks.

Not sleeping well, either, when I do sleep.
I've got tons on my mind.

I shouldn't complain. I chose my own busy life.

I'm off for the next few nights, so I'll be back. I need to think some things through.

night
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/11/07 05:04 PM
SVB1,

When you wrote "please don't stop", <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I was, of course, pleased.

However, as I have been telling SS, I'm trying to wean myself away from the MB forum and more generally away from spending so much time online or at a computer. In my work, I spend all day at the computer, and I have the absolutely terrible habit of spending yet more time on-line at home. For over 5 years! I've been posting on the MB forum.

Have you read the little book "Who moved my cheese?"

When I first came here more than 5 years ago, this forum provided me with something I needed (the metaphorical cheese). For a long time, I've known that there is no longer any cheese here for me - and yet I keep coming back, out of habit - looking for something I need, but will most likely never find here.

Perhaps, your "please don't stop" was the last morsel of some especially fine cheese that I'll find in this web.

While I would be delighted to get to know you - establish a long distance friendship of some kind, I really don't think that the MB forum is the place for it. I have long described GQII as "a boiling cauldron of misery". Meeting here for a pleasant chat is like having dinner on a balcony overlooking the killing floor of a slaughterhouse.

I'd love to hear from you in more pleasant surroundings.

Feel free to email me on my annonymous email account.
"zzzzzzz" is my address.

-AD
Posted By: svb1 Re: Happy New Year - 01/12/07 08:31 PM
SS,

It’s not that I don’t know if I like coaching or not, it that I’m NOT really good at it. It’s very rare when I find something that is obvious enough for me to comment on.

You, on the other hand, DO have a gift for it. It does have to do with our personalities. I am not “naturally” in tune with my own feelings and the feelings of others. I don’t always know what to say to others, though I am a good listener.

That’s what frustrates me sometimes. I wish that I could help people here the way that you do, but I can’t.

I could say lots more, but if I say too much, then S is afraid to write lest I see more of her than she wants seen. I have to be careful what I write, and how I write it.

Trust is an interesting thing. You can trust someone, but still keep part of yourself back. If you look into it, you often find that it is YOURSELF that you don't trust.

You’re right, I do hold back. But I’m not sure I understand what you mean about the last part about trusting myself. Remember that I am not “in tune” with my own feelings! Can you spell it out for me? I really need the book Feelings for Dummies. Someone should write that if it doesn’t exist already. I would buy it.

AD,

I have long described GQII as "a boiling cauldron of misery". Meeting here for a pleasant chat is like having dinner on a balcony overlooking the killing floor of a slaughterhouse.

Man do you have a way with words.

I totally understand what you mean about staying away from MB.

But as for staying away from the computer, you do know that if I e-mail you, you WILL have to come to the computer to get my e-mails, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Happy New Year - 01/12/07 09:45 PM
I'm taking the twins and my W away for the weekend. I don't have much time, but I'll try an answer.

BTW, I guess some things right, but I also make mistakes about others feelings in many cases. I'm not all knowing. Please feel free to call me on it at any time.

You’re right, I do hold back. But I’m not sure I understand what you mean about the last part about trusting myself. Remember that I am not “in tune” with my own feelings! Can you spell it out for me? I really need the book Feelings for Dummies. Someone should write that if it doesn’t exist already. I would buy it.

You have lots of talents, and your dad was right about being "one smart cookie." Many people who divorce have a hard time trusting their feelings for some time afterwards. If you don't understand what happened to what was once a good relationship, it's hard to want to try again.

We shy away from others, wondering if they are safe, when it's our own judgment we are most worried about. Will I choose another person who will hurt me?
You have to have exposure to someone to learn enough about them to even know if you want to know more. (bad structure, I know, but I believe you can get what I meant.)

It's not a bad thing to hold back some things on a forum like this. My goal is to encourage you, and help you reach your own goals. You don't need to bare your soul for that to happen. Sometimes I type things I observe for two reasons. You need to know your strengths - and trust yourself. And also, you need to understand what holds you back.

I hope this exchange is useful to you in those ways. I seldom tell you "do this, or do that," I just try to point out things and let you think about them.

I'll check in when I get back. Hope you both have good weekends.

SS
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/13/07 02:18 PM
0 unread messages
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: svb1 Re: Happy New Year - 01/14/07 10:13 PM
Hi SS,

OK, you are right. I see what you mean. I don’t trust myself to choose someone else. I suppose I need to give people a chance.

Of course, I will still be careful. Looking back, there were a lot of red flags when I dated my ex, but I chose to ignore them. I won’t do that again.

Ah, this is hard. I’m really teetering. Part of me wants to stay safe and alone… forever, and the other part of me wants to venture out. I suppose this is the year for me to venture out and meet some people. I’ve got to work past that fear.

Thanks SS. I hope you had a good weekend.

AD, you’ve got mail.
Posted By: _AD_ Re: Happy New Year - 01/14/07 10:52 PM
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: still seeking Re: Happy New Year - 01/17/07 12:23 AM
I'm glad you were able to understand what I was trying to say. That was written quickly, with out the usual editing. Some things were lacking in detail and example. However if you got it, we'll let it stand.

Ah, this is hard. I’m really teetering. Part of me wants to stay safe and alone… forever, and the other part of me wants to venture out. I suppose this is the year for me to venture out and meet some people. I’ve got to work past that fear.

I believe every normal person has some fears. They are different, depending on our strengths and weaknesses. As you have probably heard before, bravery is not the absence of fear, but the overcoming of it. I believe you were able to overcome the fear of D, because you were living with the stimuli. The pain of staying was greater than the fear of leaving.

It may not be that way now. (Meeting someone new.) Perhaps you will have to overcome this one by sheer will power and a little prayer. Mind over emotion.

I wasn't there to watch your father, and mother interact. From what I gather, it was a good thing. If so, you have seen both the bad, and the good firsthand. Marriage can be a wonderful thing. It is a wonderful thing for my W and I, so I know from personal experience, not just from reading about it.
HNHN, and LB's (Harleys books) are very useful, and take care of the majority of the things we had troubles with. Of course, we wanted to do better before, but didn't have the all the tools.

I think you have a better background, and more tools now. That alone will make a big difference. I know you believe in God. Don't be shy about asking him for advice too. If you were to ask him if you really can venture out, and if it's a good thing, surely he will answer.

I am not afraid for you this time around. Hopeful - yes.

I know something could go wrong, but knowing what I do about you, and knowing the things you have learned, I believe you will be OK.

Hardships?
Yes.

Things to overcome?
Yes.

More to learn?
Yes.

Failure?
I really doubt it.

So, if you do want to work past that fear, how would you go about it? Where would you start?

SS
Posted By: still seeking Re: Happy New Year - 01/17/07 12:34 AM
PS,
Yes, we had a good weekend. We live in the desert southwest, and we went to the mountains where it's cold, and snows. The twins played in the snow, went sledding, made a snow fort, and designs in the snow. I managed to play a with them a little bit, and also read three books plus quite a bit in the New Testament. My W and I were able to take a couple of good walks, even as cold as it was. Walking, and talking is good for a relationship, I think.

We made simple meals, with little cleanup. Had hot chocolate, and cinaman buns. Popcorn, and chips and salsa. (Not all at the same time.) We came home late Monday evening.

How about everyone else? How were your weekends?
SS
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