Marriage Builders
Posted By: believer Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 07:26 PM
Hi folks. I have mostly gotten over my husband's betrayal. We had what I thought was a very good marriage. WH has the head of the household, and I was mostly submissive.

I did what I thought was pleasing to God. I took care of the children and the house. Also worked fulltime.

WH and I went to church, volunteered, and tried to do our best.

However, the A still happened. WH has been living with OW for over a year. He has been thrown out of our church, and says what he is doing is wrong. But he keeps doing it.

So where is the Lord in all of this? It has been going on for about 20 months. I have been praying about this for much too long. It has not changed anything. I know, the Bible says to just keep hanging on.

However, I am having a crisis of faith. I feel like I did what I was supposed to do. On the other hand I feel like the Lord has completely abandoned me. And I mean completely.
Posted By: aislinn Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 07:41 PM
believer, I don't have any great words of wisdom for you. I believe in God with all my heart, but I do not go to Church. I was raised Catholic and my beliefs tends to lie in that way, but I don't subscribe to any particular faith.

believer, all you can do is have faith that God has a plan for you and this was all a part of it. Sometimes that is a small comfort, but one day you will see and you will be glad you placed your trust and faith in God. Understand, I say this from my heart and not from any scripture..it is just what I believe. You have already taken steps along God's intended path for you. Look at what a strong woman you are. Did you think you were this strong before all of this happened?

Your husband is already experiencing God's displeasure. He is confused and unhappy. Even you can see this.

I can understand your feeling of abandonment and I'm so sorry that you are feeling this. But I do not feel you have been abandoned.
Posted By: Octobergirl Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 07:42 PM
Hi B,

I understand what you are going through.It has been a year for me and shows no sign of ending.In fact,this mess I am in seems to have morphed into another sickening phase.I am over the acute and severely painful trauma like in the first few months but now it is like a slow,suffocating realization that I will never feel ok.

My mom has also been having a difficult time and that to me is hard to deal with.My Mom is a very faithful woman and I always considered her having a direct line to God because all that she ever prays for has been answered so quickly it was scary.But,her prayers for me during all this are not revealing the best outcome yet.She is upset to see me still going through such turmoil and frankly so am I!

I also thought I was living right and doing all I could for my family,self sacrificed just to please everyone.But,I hope in time that all these WS's will have their "judgement day" and reap what they have sown.I think though that it doesn't always happen right away,it may take years.

I keep thinking too that if I gave up today,I would have failed the test of faith I am enduring.So many times I just wanted to say "Ok,I have had enough,what is going on??!!" But I try to keep enduring what I am in the most dignified way but it's hard.I feel like I am being challenged in such a severe way.But I keep plugging along,day by day until my WH and I are D'd and he gets a job and gets out of here,my home.Until that happens,I am still living in he** and sometimes I just don't think I can bear it.But I do.Ugh

Well,no words of wisdom, just sharing my own story.You are a tough cookie and I know you will survive.

O

<small>[ September 17, 2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>
Posted By: starz Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 07:49 PM
I don't know if I am the best person to answer this one, but here goes...

"My ways are not your ways" said God. (I don't remember where, but take my word for it, it's there.)

Some things I think we are not meant to understand. We have to take them on faith. After my oldest child was killed in a freak accident, my younger son (9 at the time) asked me why God let that happen to his brother. Realizing immediately that this was one of those life changing and faith changing moments for him, I knew my answer was very important. But the answer came to me without thought. I know where it came from, don't you? I told him, "See that car in front of us? God could easily take over and drive the car for me and prevent me from hitting the car ahead of us. But sometimes God leaves the details to us. It's my responsibility to drive the car, use the brake, and know when to slow down. God is giving us free choice in our lives to do the right thing. Without free choice we wouldn't need faith. So God is trusting me to do the right thing and not hit that car. What happened to your brother was like that. God was trusting *&^& to take care of himself. But *&^& made a mistake, just as many of us do every day. The result of his mistake was that he died. But even then, God was there, waiting to lift him in his arms and take him to heaven."

Believer, you are driving your car. Your H is driving his. God has to let us make our own mistakes. Are we hurt sometimes because wrong choices are made? Absolutely. Even when we didn't do anything wrong? Absolutely. We just have to remember in those times that no matter what mistakes we make, God is waiting to lift us in his arms when the time comes.

But what about the pain? Why doesn't God take away the pain? I thought faith was to take away the pain. I told someone after my son's death that my faith was like a rock - but the rock was submerged under the water. When I grew too tired to tread water any more, I rested on the rock. But then I had to keep swimming to get to shore. The rock wasn't going to take me there, but it was my respite from the water. It was my responsibility to swim through the pain. He was there for me.

I am struggling with a WH, too, after 33 years of love and loyalty. I stood before God and committed myself to him for the rest of my life. Therefore, I will drive the car - I will swim for shore, and rest on the rock when I simply can't go on any more. God is trusting me to keep swimming for the shore. And he is trusting me not to wreck the car. But if I drown, or wreck the car, his promise is that he is waiting for me with open arms. None of the promises really have anything to do with life on earth. They are all promises for our next life with Him.

Hope that was understandable - sometimes I write too much.
Posted By: aislinn Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:06 PM
believer, HurtinOne posted this not too long ago and I thought it might help. As I said, i do not go to church, and I also have to say that I'm not usually that big on parables either...but this particular post really spoke to me. here's the post in it's entirety:

The Tea Cup

There was a couple who used to go England to shop in a beautiful antique store.

This trip was to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary. They both liked antiques and pottery, especially tea-cups.
Sotting an exceptional cup, they asked "May we see that? We've never seen a cup quite so beautiful."
As the lady handed it to them, suddenly the tea-cup spoke to the couple;

"You don't understand." It said, "I have not always been a tea-cup. There was a time when I was just a lump of red clay. My master took me and rolled me, pounded and patted me over and over and I yelled out, "Don't do that. I don't like it! Let me alone!", but he only smiled, and gently said; "Not yet!!"
Then. WHAM! I was placed on a spinning wheel and suddenly I was spun around and around and around. "Stop it! I'm getting so dizzy! I'm going to be sick!", I screamed. But the master only nodded and said quietly "Not yet."

He spun, poked and prodded and bent me out of shape to suit himself and then......he put me in the oven. I never felt such heat! I yelled and knocked and pounded at the door. "Help! Get me out of here!"

I could see him through the opening and I could read his lips as he shook his head from side to side and again said, "Not yet".
When I thought I couldn't bear it another minute, the door opened. He carefully took me out and put me on the shelf, and I began to cool. Oh, that felt so good! Ah, this is much better, I thought. But, after I cooled he picked me up and he brushed and painted me all over. The fumes were horrible. I thought I would gag. Oh, please; "Stop it, Stop it!!" I cried. He only shook his head and said "Not yet".
Then suddenly he put me back in to the oven. Only it was not like the first one. This was twice as hot and I just knew I would suffocate! I begged. I pleaded. I screamed. I cried. I was convinced I would never make it. I was ready to give up.

Just then the door opened and he took me out and again placed me on the shelf, where I cooled and waited------- and waited, wondering what's he going to do to me next? An hour later he handed me a mirror and said "Look at yourself." And I did. I said, "That's not me, that couldn't be me. It's beautiful! I'm beautiful!"

Quietly he spoke "I want you to remember", then he said, "I know it hurt to be rolled and pounded and patted, but had I just left you alone, you'd have dried up. I know it made you dizzy to spin around on the wheel, but if I had stopped, you would have crumbled. I know it hurt and it was hot and disagreeable in the oven, but if I hadn't put you there, you would have cracked. I know the fumes were bad when I brushed and painted you all over, but if I hadn't done that, you never would have hardened. You would not have had any color in your life. If I hadn't put you back in the second oven, you wouldn't have survived for long because the hardness would not have held. Now you are a finished product. Now you are what I had in mind when I first began with you."

The moral of this story is this:


God knows what He's doing with each of us. He is the potter, and we are His clay. He will mould us and make us, and expose us to just enough pressures of just the right kinds that we may be made into a flawless piece of work, to fulfill His good, pleasing and perfect will.

So when life seems hard, and you are being pounded and patted and pushed almost beyond endurance; when your world seems to be spinning out of control; when you feel like you are in a fiery furnace of trials; when life seems to "stink", try this....

Brew a cup of your favorite tea/Coffee, in your prettiest tea cup, sit down and think on this story and then..

Have a little talk with the Potter.
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:06 PM
Starz - I feel for you, losing a son. I have tried being the rock, but mostly I am done. I hope the Lord watches over me. But I don't have alot of expectations. He may be too busy in Iraq.
Posted By: kloe72 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:08 PM
I don't know who the author of this is but this was something I copied and pasted from someone elses post. I pull it out and read it when I am in doubt. I hope it helps.


I asked for Strength....
And God gave me Difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for Wisdom....
And God gave me Problems to solve.

I asked for Prosperity....
And God gave me Brain and Brawn to work.

I asked for Courage....
And God gave me Danger to overcome.

I asked for Love....
And God gave me Troubled people to help.

I asked for Favors....
And God gave me Opportunities.

I received nothing I wanted....
I received everything I needed!

Trust in God...Always!
Posted By: jante Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:11 PM
Hi Believer
Like you I was married to a man I considered to be a man of God. We served God together for 16 years, we led groups in church, went to Bible College, prayed together, shared the word together - and then he had an affair.
I also believed for 2 years that God wanted me to stand for my marriage and that my husband would come back.
Nearly 2 years ago after a sunday evening service i felt very clearly God tell me to divorce my husband. The reason I believe was that my husband had no intention of returning and so God was allowing me to be free on the scriptural basis of my ex's adultry.
One thing I knew through all this God had not ordained it nor had he allowed it. What He had ordained and allowed was my husband freedom of will to do as he wished even against God and His plan. It was a man who hurt me, betrayed me and walked away from me, not God. Through it all God held me close, I had to endure the pain yes, I felt betrayed, I cried, felt depressed and even considered suicide but through it all God held on to me and reassued me. Three years later I am happy in my family and in my church and most of all with my God.I know God brought much wisdom and comfort to me in those years- part of which came through this site. He doesn't mind when we question and cry out, but is there to love and encourage us all through it all.
God is on your side, but the answers He brings are not necessarily the ones we want to hear at a given moment. My prayers are with you Believer
Jante
Posted By: jante Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:11 PM
Hi Believer
Like you I was married to a man I considered to be a man of God. We served God together for 16 years, we led groups in church, went to Bible College, prayed together, shared the word together - and then he had an affair.
I also believed for 2 years that God wanted me to stand for my marriage and that my husband would come back.
Nearly 2 years ago after a sunday evening service i felt very clearly God tell me to divorce my husband. The reason I believe was that my husband had no intention of returning and so God was allowing me to be free on the scriptural basis of my ex's adultry.
One thing I knew through all this God had not ordained it nor had he allowed it. What He had ordained and allowed was my husband freedom of will to do as he wished even against God and His plan. It was a man who hurt me, betrayed me and walked away from me, not God. Through it all God held me close, I had to endure the pain yes, I felt betrayed, I cried, felt depressed and even considered suicide but through it all God held on to me and reassued me. Three years later I am happy in my family and in my church and most of all with my God.I know God brought much wisdom and comfort to me in those years- part of which came through this site. He doesn't mind when we question and cry out, but is there to love and encourage us all through it all.
God is on your side, but the answers He brings are not necessarily the ones we want to hear at a given moment. My prayers are with you Believer
Jante
Posted By: starz Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:12 PM
I didn't say BE the rock, I said REST on the rock. There is a huge difference. Then we just have to go on swimming.

I told someone yesterday - I am tired of being strong. I was the strong one when my son died. I made it through with the love and sharing with my H. I then developed breast cancer. I was strong. My H was loving and very supportive. But now H is the storm. I don't have anyone to be loving and supportive and sharing with. I long to have someone to rest my head on their shoulder and cry, and have them pat me and say, "It's going to be ok." I don't have that to get me through this storm. I have to keep swimming, and driving, and you do too. Rest on the rock, and then try again.
Posted By: d_rose Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:15 PM
"Satan's cause is never more in danger than when a human no longer desiring, but still intending to do God's will, looks around him upon a universe from which every trace of God seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."

C.S.Lewis

Our goal should not be Get me out of this. It should be save me from surrendering to this.

I found this prayer in a book.

I pleaded with God to deliver me from trouble. My brain was bruised from seeking solutions. My body ached from the effort. My nerves were strung tight; they would break, I knew, something would break if I forced myself to go on.

"Help me," I kept crying to my God. Give me answers. Deliver me from this torment." But my own voice seemed to despair of such deliverance even as I called.

Then a strange quiet came upon me. A kind of divine indifference. I knew without words or even thoughts that I could only withdraw and wait quietly upon the Lord.

And he did not forsake me.

He came in the quiet of the night; he was there in the brilliance of the morning. He touched my senses with hope; he healed my despair. And with the awareness of his presence came the deliverance I sought.

The answers would be provided. Quietly, and in God's own way, they were working even as I waited.
Just keep hanging in there.

I have been praying about this for much too long. It has not changed anything. I know, the Bible says to just keep hanging on.

Pray for strength Believer.

God Bless

Doug
Posted By: shmaley Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:29 PM
I can only speak from my own experience and where I know that God has been at work in my life. Before the A I was not close to my Brother and this experience as brought us together. It has also brought me closer to my parents and IL's. It has also forced me to take a hard look at my lifestyle and make improvements. Strange to say it but I think that God was actually favoring me when he let my W have the A. It's what I do with it from here out that matters the most. What will I do with Gods gift?

Maybe in the end I will lose my M maybe I won't. But I don't know if any of these things could of happened without the A. God is at work in my life this I know to be true.

C.
hi believer, i am sorry you are down today. must be something in the air!!! all the other posts to you were all far more elequant than i can write but i did want to send you a hug and my love. God will watch out for you. I am sure of it.
Posted By: womanoffaith5 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:36 PM
Believer -
You HAVE
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:38 PM
((((((Believer)))))),

“””WH has the head of the household, and I was mostly submissive.”””

That word submissive gets to me. I have no idea what religion you are, I’m personally a Lay Minister in the Methodist church. A lot of “Old Testament” ideals are taught in some religions without regard to the promises and sacrifices of the “New Testament”.

”””So where is the Lord in all of this?””””

I suggest to you that the Lord is not the one that is lost.

“”” I have been praying about this for much too long. It has not changed anything.”””

What have you been praying for? We are called to pray with persistence, which means to constantly give praise. What if God’s answer is no? I, too, prayed selfish prayers in my time of despair but now I simply ask for the vision to see His will for my life and the power for me to carry out His will.

“””I know, the Bible says to just keep hanging on.”””

Does it not also say to let the non-believer go? Does it not also say that adulterer’s may be granted divorces?

”””However, I am having a crisis of faith.”””

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I didn’t regain my faith in a church. I didn’t regain my faith the bible. I did regain my faith by admitting that I was powerless in the life and came to believe that a power greater than myself would help me if I sought Him. Then I took the ultimate leap by turning my will and life over to His care.

“””I feel like I did what I was supposed to do.”””

So did many figures in the Bible, I’m 1st reminded of Job whom God said was a “Godly” man. Did God abandon him? Did God do anything bad to him? No, God is incapable of doing anything bad or evil. As an apple tree cannot produce oranges, God cannot produce anything that is not Good. This is from promises made by the crucifixion of His son.

“””On the other hand I feel like the Lord has completely abandoned me.”””

And rightfully so. But “My precious child, those times when you only seen one set of footprints is when I carried you”. And I really don’t want to say this but I’m going to suggest you really need to think about whose abandoned whom and where your faith stands.

Hugs, THoughts, & Prayers
Posted By: K72172 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:40 PM
Believer...

I look at your signature line "sometimes He quiets the storm, and sometimes He quiets His child".

I love this so much, I wrote it in my book of quotes.....

It makes me cry.... I'm not so close to God as I used be. But people like you here lead me to seek that close relationship with Him again.

I pray for you.... We do not know what God has in store for us. Our whole purpose in life is to love Him, and do his will.

Listen, be quiet, and I believe you will hear God speaking to you.

I pray for all BS's, that God will love us thru our WS's, and love them thru us.

"Sometimes He quiets the storm, and sometimes He quiets His child"

K
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:46 PM
Thanks for all of the input. I have not been a perfect woman, and have made lots of mistakes in my life. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'm probably at about a 4.

And I'm sure the Lord has blessed me. After all he could have taken my sons away. He could have sent a plague down, destoyed my home and many other things. So far he hasn't. But I am not holding my breath.

I am very, very angry with the Lord. I am not a good person, but have done my best. I have tried all my life to be a blessing to others.

So all in all, don't know where He is, but for sure, He is not here.
Posted By: roughroad Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:51 PM
i too am not that eloquent but will ditto what has been said here and also refer to Proverbs 3:5-6 and also the classic poem "Footprints" i won't repeat the whole thing here but the last paragraph "My precious child, i love you and would never leave you. during your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that i carried you."

like someone said above, you can't be the rock only rest on the rock and the rock is our LORD. you've been strong or at least have appeared to be for so long. you can't go wrong w/prayer and maybe just the focus of your prayer needs to be different now. continued prayers to you and God Bless, RR
Posted By: roughroad Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:56 PM
i may be way off base here but maybe it would be a good idea to back off from the forums for awhile. sometimes just coming here everyday can hold people back in one way or another. just a thought.
Posted By: Scotty8 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 08:58 PM
Believer,

Don't be ashamed that you feel that God has abandoned you. Even Jesus had these human feelings as He hung upon the cross bearing our sin. He cried out in agony of body and soul "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me".

My dear fellow believer, God has not abandoned you. His love for you will never change. He is the one who has said "I will never leave you or forsake you". It is at times like this that you (and I) are going through, that we have do do as the old hymn reminds us - to stand on the promises of God. A former pastor of mine used to say that when you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on.

God's timing is not the same as ours. I am so impatient at times and long for my WW to return now. I so much need to learn patience.
James 1:3 "Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience".

Job testified that "When I am tried, I shall come forth as gold". The above story of the teacup and the potter is much the same thought.

Hang in there Believer. God will never give up on you.
My love and prayers are with you.

Scotty
(my story is on the "Just found out board" titled "I so much want her back".
Not yet worked out how to make a link to it!)
Believer--

You are going though so much pain and turmoil right now, taht someone ilke me who hasn't been in your position can't begin to understand.

But I wanted to talk to you about God for a second.

I could talk with you about how you can't earn God's will. I could say how it's all in your head, God hasn't abandoned you. (And I think that's true.)

But mostly I wanted to explain to you what I've learned through my walk with God. Honestly, for one reason or another, I've spent my days arguing with God about his judgement. I've spent a lot of time trying to understand why God let's some bad things happen to me, and some good. I've struggled with concepts such as "name it and claim it" (as if God could be manipulated) and "do everything right, and God loves you, do it wrong and he hates you." (Praise God for Grace.

And although I am clearly young, my conclusion is this so far:

God's plans for us are inexplicable and mysterious. There are complexities in what we live that we will never fully understand, even though we spend our eternity in heaven asking him.

But, two things I see him doing in my life and that of others:

#1, He takes life like a stone chisel, and uses it to carve me. He allows me to pass through experiences in my life that shape me. And as I seek to follow him, I see that they shape towards who he wants me to be. Can you see that? Can you see his love being more perfected in you, as you walk through this?

#2, He uses my life as a chisel in the lives of others. He brings me alongside wonderful people like yourself who I can give His love to. (You know I must be here from my own pain, though it's not like yours.) You know you have been a great blessing to many people on this site, and you have shared his love, right? He gives me wisdom to help others who may later be in my position get through their pain. He gives me a chance to advise people how to avoid my position.


And if you keep your eyes on him, and keep them open, you will slowly see the little areas he is using you, and making a blessing.

Where is the Lord in all of this? Chiselling the world to His glory.
Posted By: womanoffaith5 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 09:06 PM
oops - hit send by mistake

what I wanted to say was that you have done everything right - and God will be faithful to you, and will certainly bringing you healing. But when your healing comes - it may be with your husband, or without him.

Just a thought here - I read in a book once that we should not just ask that the Lord "bring reconciliation to my M, if it is your will" because, after all, it is clearly Gods will that a marriage be reconciled. Instead - in your prayer time, ask for specific requests. Like - Lord please make my H miserable in his relationship with OW. or "Father - I pray that you would put a hedge of thorns between WH and OW that makes him feel miserable in her presence."

God is not asking you to be miserable forever - he wants to bring healing to you, and restore a sense of joy to your life. With or without your H. The sad thing is - your H has a great big pile of crap coming his way becuse of his stubborn refusal to honor Gods word.

this comment right here:
says what he is doing is wrong. But he keeps doing it.

That is very telling of what is going on. Your prayers are working. God has shown your H that he doing the wrong thing - that his life is wrong. But he refuses to change his ways.
A big can of whoop [censored] is coming his way. I pity him.
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 09:08 PM
rr -

I probably should back off here on the forums. I am no good for helping others. I am very angry at the Lord. I know I shouldn't be, but that is the way it is.

I AM thankful for what I have, but any minute HE could take that too. And maybe He will. He could still take my kids, my house, my job, my life, my parents, my sister and my niece.

He has already taken the father of my children, my husband, my step children, my sister-in-laws, my brother-in-laws, my grandchildren. So I guess he could continue on.
Posted By: Rose55 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 09:19 PM
Believer –

I used to hate it when something bad happened and people would say, “It builds character.” However, my pastor has said to me that God is more concerned with our character than He is with our happiness. He even took it a step further and suggested that God will allow anything to happen to us that He has to in order to build our character. It seems really sucky, but perhaps it’s true. I’m not saying I know anything for sure, it’s just something to think about.

I do believe that God gave us all free will, though, in order not to have a race of unfeeling robots. Unfortunately, your H has used his free will to make very bad choices. Please don’t blame God for you H’s mistakes.

Someone mentioned Job earlier. At one point, Job is quoted as saying about God, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him” (Job 13:15). That kind of surrender is the only way to find peace, I think. I’m not saying it’s easy for us to do, though.

Also, have you told God how mad you are? You can talk to Him about anything. Some people think we can hurt God’s feelings, but I don’t believe it. I believe He’s big enough to take it. Maybe it would help if you really talked to God about how you’re feeling.

God bless,

Rose
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 09:40 PM
Yep, I have told God how angry I am. What does He care? He is busy all over the world with people having much worse problems.

Sorry I am having a pity party. But I no longer trust in the Lord. He has abandoned me. And I know that He could do much worse - taking everything away from me. But you know what? I don't care.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 09:47 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong>

I am very, very angry with the Lord. I am not a good person, but have done my best. I have tried all my life to be a blessing to others.

So all in all, don't know where He is, but for sure, He is not here. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believer, don't blame God for your troubles. Never does He promise us that we won't have troubles in life. He only promises to give us the STRENGTH to get through them. He has done that for you.

You are holding him to unrealistic expectations and then condemning him for it. That is not right.

The person you should be mad at is the one who did this to you, your H. God allows us to choose evil, and will not force your H to do something against his will. God is not a cosmic puppeteer, believer. So please aim your blame at the right source, God didn't do this, your H did.
Posted By: FamilyMatters Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 10:52 PM
Believer,
I was going to reply to this earlier, but then I refrained. I do have an opinion:

H set the tone for the household, and when a H allows temptations to ruin his sense of obligation to his W, then it's really up to the H to make right what he has wronged. GOD has given your H the tools to reclaim his household, FREE WILL remember. It's not you, even if you didn't meet all of his EN's every moment of the day, even if you LB'd on occasion, You H will be held accountable for his actions. He is acting contrary to his role as a H, this isn't GOD's fault, its the Devil's fault and your H's responsibility.

What can a W do when her H has betrayed her and chooses not to do what is right by her, which is honor and lead her? Exactly what you've done, be strong, maintain her dignity and her convictions as best she can. Your H will never find happiness unless he redeems himself in some way to you. GOD cannot make him redeem himself, FREE WILL.

I hold myself accountable for my betrayal of my W and now I have done all I can to make right what I've made so wrong. This is each mans responsibility. I am so sorry that you have been deserted, no honorable W deserves this. I don't see any reason in this suffering and I do not believe in fate. I believe in choice, and it's your H who has made these poor choices. I wish I had words of comfort for you, but this is a sad situation for all parties involved, but it's your H who must return to GOD's word and make amends.

FM
Posted By: faithinme Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/17/04 11:33 PM
(((((((Believer)))))))

Honey, this is something I have gone through myself. I don't have the answers to help you through it. What I can do is share with you something that happened to me while one day while questioning my faith.

I was driving along and thinking about how much time I have wasted on prayer...I'm Catholic and I had said so many rosaries and prayers, I had commited to numerous novena's and asked every patron saint I could think of to pray for me. Still, my husband had left to go see OW after not seeing me and the kids for six months. I thought, "How could He just ignore all the time I had spent asking for His intercession. How could he let this happen to me? I'm a good wife, a good person, a good Catholic. Why me?" Obviously, it wasn't my turn to be listened to. I had asked for him to see the error in his ways, for OW to see it, for a revelation to both of them, for strength for me to leave. NOTHING! My prayers were completely ignored.

And then, this song came on the radio. I had the volume turned down and never would have heard it, but I just had a feeling to turn it up right then. It's "Unanswered Prayers" by Garth Brooks. I typed in the refrain for you to read. For me, it was a turning point. I don't know why this is happening. I can't even begin to imagine.

I do know, from your posts, that you are a stronger person than you were. You yourself have told others who are struggling how much this last year and this experience has changed you, for the better.

God can't make your H the man that you deserve, Believer. But He can give you the strength to be who you deserve to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers

Remember when you're talkin' to the man upstairs

That just because he may not answer doesn't mean he don't care

Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers

Some of God's greatest gifts are all too often unanswered...

Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Believer:

I want to say this the right way. You have posted 5796 times on MB's. I have read so many of your selfless posts that took many hours of your time to help other people. I see the same out of so many others who do the same.

Where is God during the catastrophies when they happen? They are picking up the pieces left behind, helping the families, putting them up in there homes, and putting food on their tables, etc.

I posted the Paradoxal Commandments the other day and here they are again. Don't give up your faith. You are living it and practicing it right now. Please keep up God's work helping the distressed spouses on this board. Thank you for being you.

The Paradoxical Commandments
by Dr. Kent M. Keith


People are illogical, unreasonable, and self-centered.
Love them anyway.

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish ulterior motives.
Do good anyway.

If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies.
Succeed anyway.

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.
Do good anyway.

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable.
Be honest and frank anyway.

The biggest men and women with the biggest ideas can be shot down by the smallest men and women with the smallest minds.
Think big anyway.

People favor underdogs but follow only top dogs.
Fight for a few underdogs anyway.

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.
Build anyway.

People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.
Help people anyway.

Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth.
Give the world the best you have anyway.

© Copyright Kent M. Keith 1968, renewed 2001

TooSoon

<small>[ September 17, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>
Posted By: ark^^ Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 12:07 AM
yeah that darn God....

where'd all this get you...

it got you to look take the time to look back and really reflect...

to take a good look at yourself...and see some thing that you found the strength to make better....

you had the opportunity to do a lot of soul searching...and can find things behind you that if you had the chance...you probably wouldn't do again...and that is the root of Jesus's message...

but you also saw a lot of the good things that have come from you...
and you have learned to appreciate them...
and to celebrate them because of you...not because of someones giving and taking of love and acceptance on their whim....

and I bet you believer you have learned to never ever take another relationship for granted...not because you are guilty of doing so persay....(we all have our moments...) but because of this journey you have learned to never take those in our lives for granted...or each day that comes....

I hope you are learning that all of this is really his choice...your husbands....

and your ability to believe and to love someone who could/can hurt you so ...is not a negative reflection of you....for it is them that chooses it....
it is they that take your gift offered in God's love and light....
and twist it...
that does not lessen you
or even your gift...
pity he that can not see the value in that...

apostle John felt that he was the greatest sinner...as his own journey in life only brought him closer to God...

God has pulled you closer Believer....perhaps you can not see that right now...
but others can and do I bet...

just the hope you give here on these boards to new poster after poster...

can only be a reflection of you in living color...

God did none of this Believer...
he feels as sad for your husband
and knows how lost he is...


but you....you have labored hard...
and his Grace is in you....even when you feel empty....

and perhaps he has really in the end freed you from someone who is only deceptive and perhaps too lost right now to find their home...
to you or to Him....

you own none of your Husbands choices...
and neither does God...

I wish you rest...

ARK
Posted By: ba109 Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 12:47 AM
I happen to be of the belief that everything in our lives occurs for a reason. It all plays out in the end just the way it was intended.

As a father (of no comparison of course) I do know this much. Sometimes a when a child asks for something the answer is simply "No".
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 12:52 AM
Ecclesiastes has long been my favorite book in the Bible...

It is better to go to the house of mourning than to the house of feasting,

For that is the end of every man,
and the living should take it to heart.

Sorrow is better than laughter,
because when the face is sad the heart grows wiser.

The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,
but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.


You have become wise.... and your heart grows weary....

relax and breathe.....

you have your soul right with the Lord.... your WH and OW are in the house of fools.... you are not....


Pep
Posted By: Cherished Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 12:55 AM
Believer,
During the affair, when my H was telling me he wasn't having an affair, he said, "My relationship with Sophia will teach you trust in God." I had a problem with trust in God, and we prayed for me to trust in God every night with the children, along with prayers for the children and for him and for our extended family, etc.

Well, he was right. My trust is in God now, not in my H. My H is a sinner. There was no humility in his forming a friendship with another woman which led to an affair. There was arrogance and then the presumption of forgiveness when it was exposed. My H has taken a different path now from yours, but my trust will always be in God.

Read the psalms -- and I just finished reading Night by Elie Wiesel.
Cherished
Posted By: jph Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 03:06 AM
Believer...I know exactly how you feel. I too have prayed for along time for my husband to come around...but God didn't create us as robots. He created us with free will. I had the greatest sense of peace on a particular Tuesday not too long ago. I felt as if everything was going to work out fine. The next day I was served with divorce papers. Although I know God hates divorce, He hates seeing His children suffer as well. Our ways are not His ways. He sees the whole picture while we see only a small portion.
I know He will never abandon me. It's not within His character.

My pastor always says to not ask "why?" but "what?" Not "why is this happening to me?" but "What am I to learn?" What am I to see in this situation.

God always answers our prayers. It's either yes, no or not right now. I would rather be in His will than anything and when His will is not clear, I just know to hold on for dear life. We're here for just a wee bit of time and the sufferings of this life are not to compare with the glory to come. Those thoughts carry us through.

I think back to other what I considered bad times in my life and know that during those times I learned the most. The most about God and myself as well. There's a purpose in all of this.

On days when I get down and I can get really down, I remember to look around because if I do I can see God at work. Somedays the looking is more difficult than others. I just have to trust Him because He loves us with a love that is so great that we can't begin to fathom it. He loves us much more than we love our children-think about that.

Hold on Believer. You are such an inspiration to so many here-include me in that group. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing.
Cherished:

Your words were very wise in your last post. When my teenage son said to me, "If my own mother lies to me, who do you trust?" I said, "God, since people will always let you down.

This happened during my FWW's affair with the OM and she was lying to everyone to protect and keep her relationship with the OM.

FWW is remorseful today and we are working on the rebuilding of our family. All of us are bruised, hurt, and scarred...... but not dead.

TooSoon
Posted By: lordslady Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 03:38 AM
Believer,

SO much great advice/inspiration has been posted on this thread! Don't ever think you don't help others. You've been so caring with all of us. It's your turn to be cared for. Not only that, but I can't imagine anyone reading this thread not coming away inspired...and who started it???

But enough about that..

I've had crises of faith. Oh boy, have I! But one thing I can say with honesty--the tougher my life is, generally the more I'm trusting in and leaning on God. So in my case, maybe that's what it takes for him to keep me close, and if it is, then I'll try to be accepting of that.

Sure, life seems really unfair right now for us. It is, for goodness sake! We're not supposed to have our H's who we chose to be with 'til death just up and walk out on us. It really stinks. It makes me cry, still, when I think about the past and all the memories with mine. I don't like what's happening at all. And I prayed for months for God to put hurdles between STBX and OW, to bind us together, to keep our family safe and let this pass.

And so far, it hasn't.

But I also believe that God does things for a reason. It may be to mold us (like the teacup) story, into something better here on earth. Or we may not see the full glory of what God has done with us until we get to Heaven.

But we have to remember, even though we're human and this life seems very important to us, this is only a very temporary existance. Heaven is forever, and in that forever is no tears, no sadness, and no pain.

And while God is very busy in Iraq (and very busy with all my little issues, too), he has time for everyone. He's God. That's his job.

Tell him you're angry. If you were angry with a parent, would you tell them? He is your creater, your father. Tell him what's on your heart.

You will have ups and downs. I have days when I'm really depressed and it seems like it's all ugly and painful and will never get better. Almost always, when I think I can't take anymore, God gives me something to inspire me. Sometimes it's nothing more than a very beautiful blue sky and a crisp breeze. But it's enough.

And yes, there are days when everything feels like it's wonderful and I'm so thankful, and then it all crashes down. I hate those days. But somehow they are necessary.

My pastor explained, God doesn't want bad things to happen to us. But because sin is in the world, they do happen. It's not God doing them. It's sin. But God is with us through it.

Yes, God could keep bad things from happening. He could have saved all those people who died over in that school in Russia. He could stop the violence in Iraq. He could save children from dying. He could restore all marriages. He can do anything. Why doesn't he? I don't know that answer. The Bible tells us (somewhere, can't remember the verses or exact wording) that the sun shines on the just and the unjust, and the rain falls on the just and the unjust. In other words, just because we're Christians does not exclude us from the pain of the world.

But our reward and our comfort will be in eternity if our trust is in him for our salvation.

You are a strong woman Believer. Don't let Satan convince you otherwise!!

LL
Posted By: lordslady Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 03:43 AM
One more thing...a poem from a card I keep taped to my dresser, titled "The Weaver":


My life is but a weaving
Between my Lord an me.
I cannot choose the colors
He worketh steadily.

Oftimes he weaveth sorrow.
And I in foolish pride
Forget he sees the upper
And I, the underside.

Not till the loom is silent
And the shuttles cease to fly
Shall God unroll the canvas
And explain the reason why.

The dark threads are as needed
In the Weaver's skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He has planned.


(author unknown)

LL
Posted By: redhat Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 04:00 AM
Get to know what HE wants not what we want. I know what HE wants out of me ... it is so clear after the trial and turbulation in my life. I am Dv'ed but I know HE will give me someone to build a fulfilling M together which I would never dream of exist. I am down and out but HE took me and calls me to be HIS soldier to touch lifes that HE brings to cross path with mine.

Thy will be done ... know what HIS plans and HE give us the strength and wisdom to get there.

-rh-
Posted By: still seeking Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 04:14 AM
Believer,
I know it hurts. I realize this is an understatement.

Please tell us how you are doing.

You, who have helped so many others, please come and let us lift you up also.

SS
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 04:30 AM
Thanks everyone. I feel better already. What does the Bible say? Two are better than one, when one falls, the other can lift him up?
Posted By: marsmom Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 04:52 AM
Believer,
Your last post was what I wanted to say. No, you're not dragging anyone down. Instead, you are allowing yourself to be lifted up.

Remember when a Christian couple enters into marriage, it isn't two at the altar but three. Where is the Lord? He is the other wounded spouse in this, He knows your pain. He hasn't forgotten you or considered your problem insignificant. Instead,it is His problem.

MM
Posted By: marsmom Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 04:52 AM
Believer,
Your last post was what I wanted to say. No, you're not dragging anyone down. Instead, you are allowing yourself to be lifted up.

Remember when a Christian couple enters into marriage, it isn't two at the altar but three. Where is the Lord? He is the other wounded spouse in this, He knows your pain. He hasn't forgotten you or considered your problem insignificant. Instead,it is His problem.

MM
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 04:55 AM
Believer, I am a man of little faith. I have always envied folks with great, confidant faith in God. God always sems to have given me 'enough' faith rather than so much that I feel utterly justifiably confidant to throw any problem at His feet and smile awaiting His resolution.

I always had a problem with the unequivocal nature of scripture - that 'pray in Jesus name and belive you have recived it' thing. There's no 'unless', or 'but' in there that bears out most people's experiences. I KNOW God DOES answer prayers and intervene, but he don';t do it for everyone and everything, and I am yet to see the 'get out cluse' in scripture. This doubt led me to lave out church a few years ago and we never got round to finding another.

Yet through all that, all legalistic bindings and pretence was stripped away leaving me with a bare, but earnest hope in God's care for us.

Now in previous life crises, the heavens have appeared to be brass to my prayers, but we all stumbled through them.

In THIS situation, this horrible Affair, Gods intervetion in MY life has been obvious and dramatic enough to make a GREAT witness once this mess is over.

Believer, I cannot advise as a wise and faithful Christian, just a poor, weak one but I will only say that while God does not always respond as we would wish, or as we would understand, He is there, He cares, and he knows a lot more about the bigger picture than we do.
I will add my clumsy prayers to your cause , dear B.

Remember even JESUS felt abandoned by his Father and he is part of the trinity of being of the Godhead ! Doesn't mean he WAS abandoned...

All blessings...
Posted By: LINY Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 05:15 AM
belever....hugs to you, first and foremost. Regardless of race, creed, sex, etc. you are such an ideal human being, it's hard not to imagine you are not an intent of God's plan--for the rest of us.

I was sure something had been "wrong" in the last few weeks, just due to the nature of your "matter-of-fact" posts and length of them (short.) I was really hoping "Ladies only please" "snapped" you out of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by scotty:
God's timing is not the same as ours.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jph:
God always answers our prayers. It's either yes, no or not right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are so many lessons we learn from God's teachings and his own army of angels (you included.) Those two above are my favorites--besides the fact that I know God loves us unconditionally.

We don't need to understand why. But it's human nature to ask "Why?"--just like our emotions, including your emotion of anger.

I can picture God Plan A'ing all of us. He is the Perfect reverse-babbler. (Sorry Orch and Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) This is what faith and trust is about, right?

Just like this site...you have received three pages of responses telling you of personal stories, relationships, variations of beliefs, from all denominations, both male and female, opinions varying, etc. Funny, though, that we're all here for the same reason.

Just like all of us. Funny, though, how we're all here for the same reason--because man is "human" and sins.

You asked one original question:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So where is the Lord in all of this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is always with you believer. It's your perception that He is not and hasn't been for some time now. My perception? (Allow me to answer this one!)
It is my perception that He continues to be with you--it is with your eloquence of words; your humor; your stability and strength; your kindness and soft "caresses"; your truthfulness that I know He has not left you wayward.

Don't forget: it is a *choice* and free will that He himself has given us to become a wayward spouse to our own marriage with Him.

After all that you have done for so many of us--myself and brown absolutely included--I ask of one thing from you: save this thread.

Thanks, believer. It's all in a name!
Posted By: smurfgirl Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 05:27 AM
I'm with Bill on this one. It seems like you need to reflect on whats going on and get some biblical counceling by someone you can trust like a pastor whomever u trust of that nature to help you sort where God is in all of this. I have felt like this too. The thing is I'm not mad at God, I know deep down he is here, but I'm just taking my anger out on I guess who I trusted to keep me from danger. Unfortunatly we sinned and severed that direct link with God.We have to pay for our sins unfortunatly. I know God was there trying to help restore your marriage. He didn't want to listen, he decided to be blind to his heart and concience, God grants us all free will and that is what he chose. One thing you might want to check on as well in the Bible is that it says if the spouse is committing adultry and refuses to stop then you should divorce him so he doesn't continue in sin becouse of you. I know that's harsh, but for your own sanity you need to draw a line as to how far you are going to go with this?

jermemia 29
11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Posted By: still seeking Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 06:45 AM
Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!


I know that God lives. I know it. I know that Jesus is the Christ, our savior.

I say as did Job - (Chapter 19)

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

I commend you for the peace you have published. I think you will feel that he is there. I pray for your success. I request that you continue to seek his face, and suggest that someday you know the answers to all your questions.

Finally, this last benediction.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

May your heart find peace tonight, may you sleep well, may you find joy in the morning.

SS

<small>[ September 18, 2004, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Posted By: brownhair Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 09:29 AM
Dear Believer,

I'm glad you are feeling better. Just wanted to give you my 2cents.

I think many of us really feel God is like a father. Not The Father, but a father. We want Him to reach out and take away all the bad things. We believe Him to have great powers (all powers, really), so why doesn't He wave His magic wand and restores everything? Some instant miracle? We have sacrificied so much (we think) so where is the reward??

Well.. it doesn't work that way. It's not like we can invest with "sacrifice, duty and love" and then collect the "intrests" in the form of some miracle or just not having anything bad happen to us.

When we think we "sin" we don't expect any miracles. We have been "bad" and we need to be "punished". When we are "good" we expect to be "rewarded".

I think we basically need to grow up. A good father or mother doesn't take all obstacles out of our path so we won't hurt ourselves. They give us the chance to learn. Why did we chose a H that was too immature to keep the vows he took? Our H need to grow up too I guess. And so do we. We are not powerless, waiting for the big ol' Guy to solve our problems. In our prayers we can ask for the strength to take the right decisions, to be able to remain loving and to accept what we cannot change.

God isn't Santa Claus. He (or She <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) is always there, at all times, waiting for us to come home and hold us in His/Her embrace.

I too have had miracles happen to me. But they always happened when I bowed, when I accepted, when I trusted, never when I was angry and resentful.

I like to think of this - if you squeeze to hard to get something out of tube, it just could be that you are actually blocking the flow.
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 09:50 AM
Brown - Thanks. Why are you up so late? And why aren't you keeping your husband off the "ladies only thread"?
Posted By: brownhair Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 11:15 AM
Hi Believer,

due to different time zones it's actually noon here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .
And it's Brownhair, not Brown.. my H isn't posting on this website... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: LINY Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 02:53 PM
Hey believer!

It sounds like you are in a better place today. Keep your head up. Sometimes you need friends to show you the faith and trust you really have!

Oh, and that comment? Just was making sure you read my post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: weaver Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 03:21 PM
I love this thread so much because it really shows the incredible amount of love and caring on this board. It's really overwhelming and makes one proud to be here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Believer, I too have lost much in my life mostly to death, but also have lost love. My faith has been tested many times, once so bad that I actually yelled at our Father, called Him every swear word in the book, even said I hated Him. I think He just laughed because He knows me well.

What my question to you (and also what Jesus's question is I know) "what is it that you desire?"

Once you have the answer to this, it will be yours. Jesus meant it when He said, "Ask and it shall be given", but first you must be clear on what you want.

I say this because it is not clear here if you want you WH back or just want to move on. Bat me if I have misunderstood, but sometimes I think you still love him and just are very discouraged.
Posted By: spj's girl Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 07:24 PM
The only advice I can really give is check out the book, "The Holy Longing" by Dr. Connie Zweig. It helped me a lot regarding the "God" issue. If you're near a public library, they may have it if you don't want to buy it (just in case you feel it's not for you.")

All the best.
Posted By: believer Re: Where was the Lord in all of this? - 09/18/04 07:31 PM
Thanks all. I do not want WH back. I don't care about him, other than someone I once knew. And I was just going through a pity thing. Feeling sorry for myself. I guess it is all part of recovery.

I have many, many things to be thankful for, and am hoping to realize that more and more. And one of the top things I am grateful for, is all of you here. We have never met, and never will, but I feel like the Lord is speaking to me through all of you.
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