Marriage Builders
Posted By: Autumn Day Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 08:43 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lemmonman,

My advice to you, is to stay the hell away from the pregnancy/OC boards.

I avoid them like the plague..the entire notion of an OC revolts me physically. I am actually grossed out to the point of being unreasonable.

Speechless.

Now that is saying something.

I get angry with all parties involved.

Noodle <--- The Wrong Stuff to deal with that issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW, I wish I had known this last week. I'm surprised you dialogued with me at all. You must have been very uncomfortable.

The above statement at least explains to me why you referred to my child as a creature.

So, you get angry with all the parties involved? Including the BS who chooses of their own free will to accept the OC into their lives? You must REALLY be angered by and grossed out by my H who can raise and actually LOVE this baby as much as his biological children, huh?

My posts to you must've really given you the heebie-jeebies. Why didn't you just say so? Here, I thought we came to some sort of understanding.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
~ad
hi AD!!!

i don't know where that quote came from, i'm guessing it was lemonman's, i read part of that. didn't have anything to add to it.

i fear my H will end up needing to do what lemonman felt he needed to do.

i've missed ya AD. although, now that i think about it, i might not have answered your last email.
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 08:58 PM
What makes you think we didn't, and..was there a conflict to come to an agreement about in the first place?

Noodle
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 09:20 PM
Noodle~

You didn't answer my question. I really want to know.

I never said the word conflict, nor agreement.

If you recall, we were discussing the role forgiveness factors in or doesn't factor into maintaining the marriage and relationship. We talked a lot about grounds for D post reconcilliation, etc, etc... I thought we came to some understanding on what each other's POV was on the subject.

I referred to baby as "OUR OC" and you took major issue with me referring to him as *OUR* OC. Said it was another example of smudging the lines or something, among other things. I was offended by the things you said, but thought you misunderstood what I was trying to say, remember? Then you commented on how I misunderstood you? I thought we came to some understanding on each other's POV on this too.

I sure didn't know you were angered at my H.

You should be grossed out and angered by what I DID, hell I am!! I'm certainly not offended by what you think of me.

When you say you are angered at all parties, I can't keep quiet. You have offended me by offending my H, even if you didn't mean him personally. You said all parties, so that includes my H.

FL~ Are you serious about your H? WRITE to me, ok??
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 09:51 PM
AD,

That depends. I tend to be angry with all parties..this is true.

Did your H stand there and allow you to vacillate between he and OM..did/does he allow OM to have ANY role in OCs life? Did your H allow you to mistreat him, drop his standards of life, drop his plain old self respect etc in order maintain your presence in the M? Did he allow you to drag your children with him through the muck of your A?

Then, I would probably be angry with him, if I read his posts..or yours describing it. No different really from how I respond to ANY BS situation except that with OC..with the exception of very few cases..continued contact/continued affair is just incredibly common. It's the norm. It's disgusting. And the advice? It's unbelievable. Even WH says that coninuing the M with an OC in the picture may not be the best choice. For that very reason. The A is never over. Not if we believe what we espouse..that the A partners are addicted to each other..that NC forever is required. No, the BS/WS/OP dance goes on for YEARS and YEARS and they go up..and they go down..and in and out..and more children for both as we go along..and every single time the BS is just sure that THIS one is for real. It's sick..and it's sickening. So I don't watch.

If your case did/does not play out that way..you are an exception, not the rule.

The existence of an OC gives me the heebie jeebies, but that's a personal quirk that I can't back up nor defend so I won't try. I could possibly stand it if the OW was dead or otherwise sincerely gone forever. No promises though.

Talking with you didn't make me uncomfortable at all. Why would it?


Noodle
AD, you have mail, 2 actually.
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 10:58 PM
Sorry, don't know what happened with my post--came out all messed up. Will fix and re-post.

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 11:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> AD,


Did your H stand there and allow you to vacillate between he and OM..did/does he allow OM to have ANY role in OCs life?

***No, he didn't have to. I never put him in the position to allow or not allow. I told him the adultery was over, and it was. I told him I only wanted him, if he'd have me.

There is NC with OM, period. I told my H *I* DIDN'T want OM to have ANY role in OC's life. He agreed. I left the final decision of x-om's role up to my H though, because I felt it was his right if he wanted CS and or any other kind of support for the baby.
***

Did your H allow you to mistreat him, drop his standards of life, drop his plain old self respect etc in order maintain your presence in the M? Did he allow you to drag your children with him through the muck of your A?

*** Again no, because I never put H in situation where he had a chance to allow me to mistreat him. I told him on D-day that I'd do everything in my power to earn back his trust and respect. I've kept my word.

Sadly, from MY POV, his standard of life has been lowered because of what I did, and the resulting OC. If you ask him the same question, I know what he'd probably say, "If you count not having as many material things as droping my standard of living, then yes, but this baby is a blessing, and one I wouldn't trade a billion dollars for. (Moments like this I really wish he'd post, because I feel like an idiot speaking for him and there's no reason for you to believe m. However I know him well, and he's said something like the above MANY times.)

Dropped his self respect to maintain my presence in the M? This kind of gets back to the whole M v. relationship question. He's not putting up with my presence, he wants my presence. He says there's nobody he'd rather have as his W. (again, wish he was here to verify) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Affair was over before he knew of it. But no, I don't think he would've allowed our children to be dragged through my muck. One of his motivators in life is to protect our children.
***


If your case did/does not play out that way..you are an exception, not the rule.

*** As you see, my case didn't play out that way. I'm not the exception though. There are plenty who have gone NC with the OP, even when there's an OC involved. Granted it tends to be moreso when the OC is the product of the WW's adultery, but there are some MM in NC with the OC. The NC is what disgusts LM though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On a MB site, to me the first concern should be for the M. Some M can be restored with C of OC, some just cannot be. There are some creative ways in which C with OC can be maintained, without any personal C with the OW. The debate of C/NC is an age old one, especially on P/C. I myself wish more of the focus was on saving the M first, and deciding about C/NC later.
***

The existence of an OC gives me the heebie jeebies, but that's a personal quirk that I can't back up nor defend so I won't try. I could possibly stand it if the OW was dead or otherwise sincerely gone forever. No promises though.

***I understand what you're saying. It's ok if it gives you the heebie-jeebies. In terms of the fact there should NEVER be adultery--there should NEVER be an OC--it's not normal, it's not right--all children should only be conceived between 2 M people. When it doesn't go that way, it is heebie-jeebieish. My child shouldn't *be*, because I shouldn't have committed adultery in the first place. He's here though, and I believe he has a God given purpose in life. I'm excited to find out what his purposes in life will be, just as I am all our children. I'm so gross. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Want some more grossing out and heebie-jeebies?? My H thinks the first purpose of baby's existence was to save our M. Imagine that?? He has even gone as far to say, he doesn't think he could've forgiven me so easily as he did the adultery if I'd chosen abortion. He would not hear of adoption either.

FTR, If xom in my case was M, I'm sure his wife would want me dead too. He wasn't M, and no children either to have to deal with a [censored] sibling. I'm not even an ow--just a FWW probably trying to hard to stand up for herself, H and baby.
***

Talking with you didn't make me uncomfortable at all. Why would it?

***I was being sarcastic.***

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~ad

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 11:08 PM
Yep,

Looks like some of it is missing.

I just now noticed what I *think* is the reference to my using the term *it* to describe your OC.

That you were offended by it. Actually I used the term *it* because I didn't now if *it* was a boy or a girl. Nothing to do with it's OC status.

Just for the sake of clarity.

Noodle
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 11:24 PM
The *it* wasn't so bad. For sure not bad, if you didn't know the sex. I apologize. The *NO SUCH CREATURE* as OUR OC... is what got to me. Especially when *CHILD* is 3 letters shorter, you know?

But we've already been there, done that. I even asked my H what he thought of the comment, if he thought there was any malice in it. He said, "AD--there are many people who will never understand our situation and our view on it all." He said I shouldn't be hurt by it, it's the internet, etc, etc...

He gets the heebie-jeebies whenever I bring up this site. He thinks *I'm* remaining in the muck by sticking around. He's never really read through it though, and witnessed how many people it has helped.

~ad
Posted By: Blessed TIME Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 11:42 PM
Hi Autumn Day.
I came across the article (below) on the home page of this MB site and thought you may have never read it.

By the way, I admire you greatly for not having an abortion and for the love you are giving this SPECIAL beloved little INNOCENT baby.
Your husband is a Wonderful man to accept this child as his own.

Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here is the article and below that, the first letter and Dr. Harley's reply.


What to Do When You (or Your Spouse) Becomes
Pregnant with a Lover's Child
Letter #1

Introduction: Infidelity has tragic consequences. Not only does unfaithfulness itself cause untold emotional suffering for a victimized spouse, but affairs create a host of other problems, too. An example is our topic for this Q&A column -- pregnancy with a lover's child.

I have counseled and received letters from many women who became pregnant by their lovers, had the child, reconciled with their husbands and raised the child with the husband thinking it was his. I know about 20 children who live in my area who think they know who their fathers are, but they are wrong. What is written on their birth certificates is false information provided by their mothers to cover the result of an affair. In one case, the genetic characteristics of the child are so different than those of either the mother or her husband, that it's amazing that the husband has never suspected anything. He looks just like his real father.

I have also counseled and received letters from men who are devastated when they discover that their wives are pregnant with someone else's child, or discover after the child is born, that it is not his. And I have counseled and received letters from the lovers, who know the child is their's and are tormented by a desire to become involved in their child's life as it is growing up.

Pregnancies are very common in affairs. The passion of an affair makes birth control less effective, and it's often never even used. And birth control is not all that effective even when it is used. I know of a couple that faithfully used two forms of birth control whenever they made love, and yet had five unplanned children.

Most women who become pregnant from an affair have an abortion as soon as the pregnancy is discovered. But there are many who simply cannot let their child die that way. For these, they are faced with very difficult choices.

This column will consider the choices these women face, and what I recommend. Their husbands also have hard choices to make, and my advice is for them as well.

Every person who has e-mailed me letters describing this problem has asked me not to post their letters because they regard the information as being too sensitive to risk disclosure. So I have decided to create two letters from my experience with this problem -- one from a woman who gave birth to a lover's child, and one from her husband. They are both entirely fictional. But they are good representations of the letters I receive.


Dear Dr. Harley,
I am 35, my husband is 37 and we have been married 12 years. We have three children, 9, 7 and 2. I love my husband, and don't want my marriage to end. But I am afraid that once he knows the truth, it will be all over for us.

Five years ago I had an affair. I never wanted to marry the man, but he brought some happiness into my life, and I needed him at that time. Unfortunately, I became pregnant with his child. I knew it was his, and so did he, because I had not had sex with my husband around the time the child was conceived, and my lover and I had sex quite often. Since my husband didn't keep track of our lovemaking, he was none the wiser.

My girl is now 2, and my affair is completely over. But my former lover knows that the girl is his, and is threatening to tell my husband so that he can become a part of her life.

My question is, should I tell my husband about the father of our little girl, or should I pray that my ex-lover just keeps quiet about it? I'm in a panic, so give me your answer as soon as possible.

R.G.



Dear R.G.,
I encourage couples to follow two policies that are essential to a good marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Without them, your marriage really doesn't have much hope for success. When you had your affair, you violated both of these rules. You were not honest about your affair, and it was something you did at his expense. You were both dishonest and thoughtless.

In spite of the fact that your marriage has not been guided by these rules up to this point, there's no time like the present to make an important mid-course correction. If you were to start following these guidelines now, your marriage would have a much greater chance for success.

You are backed up against a wall, and may be forced to be honest with your husband because of your lover's threats. But it may turn out to be the best thing that could have happened to you, because without his pressure, you may never have considered honesty as a realistic choice. As it turns out, it is what you should have done, even without risk of discovery. You should have told your husband who the real father was as soon as you were pregnant.

Let me review with you the Policy of Radical Honesty: Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.

This policy encourages you to keep nothing from your husband, not even the fact that you had an affair and that your daughter is not his.

If you had been guided by this rule from the time you were first married, none of this would have ever happened to you. Honesty would have protected you from the affair, since you would have told your husband about your feelings toward your lover early in the relationship. And your honesty would have set into motion a plan to avoid the affair. But it's not too late to be honest. You have years of marriage ahead of you, and the rest of your years together should be guided by truth, not lies.

I'm sure that your reluctance to be honest is due to your uncertainty regarding your husband's reaction. He may choose to divorce you, or at least hold it against you for the rest of your life. You may think that honesty will open a can of worms that once freed will invade your life and ruin it.

Once he knows the truth, will your husband remain married to you, or will he divorce you? What will he do in response to such a painful revelation? Those are just the first of many questions that have yet to be answered. There are many others: Should you tell your daughter who her real father is? Should he have visitation rights? Should he be asked to help support her?

There are no simple answers to any of these questions, but the Policy of Joint Agreement, the second rule that should have guided your marriage, gives you direction regarding the answers. According to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you and your husband should answer each of them in a way that takes each other's feelings into account. If one of you is not enthusiastic about one answer, consider others until you can agree.

Even the question of divorce should be decided together. I understand how unrealistic that may sound, but it's what the Policy of Joint Agreement guides you to do. You should not be divorced unless you are both enthusiastic about doing so. In fact, all of your husband's decisions following your disclosure should wait until you are both in agreement.

But what if he doesn't want to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, you may ask. What if he just goes ahead and divorces me? Quite frankly, even though it may not be what you want, or what I would advise, I think your husband has a right to divorce you. And in some cases I've witnessed, when a wife revealed infidelity, her husband has done just that -- he divorced her. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens.

What is the alternative to truth? It's a marriage based on deceit. Do you want that kind of a marriage where you will always have the threat of disclosure hanging over you, where your husband might leave you if he knew the truth? Or, do you want a marriage where you have nothing to hide, and you and your husband are open and honest with each other?

If you decide to tell your husband the truth, and if he would like some guidance as to what to do next, suggest that he e-mail me his questions just as you did. I would be happy to offer him some direction.


************************************************
************************************************

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>
Posted By: Blessed TIME Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/14/05 11:51 PM
Autumn Day, here is the second letter to Dr. Harley. I hope it is helpful to you, DEAR A.D.



What to Do When You (or Your Spouse) Becomes
Pregnant with a Lover's Child
Letter #2

Dear Dr. Harley,
This afternoon my wife, Robin, gave me the most shocking revelation of my life. And she said she did it on your advice. So I am writing you for help. How should I handle this?

She told me that she had been unfaithful to me for about 3 years, and my 2 year old daughter is not mine. It is the daughter of her lover. I am devastated.

Robin has been the love of my life throughout our 12 year marriage, but has been very withdrawn from me these past five years. I did not understand what was happening to our marriage, but now I know. She says she broke off the relationship with him shortly after she became pregnant, and she wants us to work things out with me. But I don't sense any real remorse on her part. After she told me these horrifying details, she just walked out of the room. I need some reassurance that she really loves me and wants to be married to me.

I also need some advice regarding what we should eventually tell our daughter, and whether I should ever let her father see her. What are the chances that we can work this out? Please help!

M.G.



Dear M.G.,
It will take a few weeks for all of this to settle in, and during that time, your emotions will take you on a roller-coaster. I recommend that you see your doctor as soon as possible and tell him about your crisis. He may be willing to prescribe an anti-depressant medication for you to help you cope with the shock of these revelations. You need to be as intelligent as possible, and this is no time to let your emotions make decisions for you.

There are two rules that guide marriages to safety and enjoyment. They are the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. The Rule of Honesty is radical. It requires couples to be completely honest with each other, and your wife has taken the first step in applying that rule to her marriage with you -- she has chosen to be honest with you about the affair and the paternity of her daughter. It may be the first time since you have been married that she has made herself so vulnerable. Use this information wisely, and don't hurt her, even though she has hurt you deeply. You have a very good chance of making the best of what could be a tragic situation. You can create a marriage that will not only survive this, but thrive.

But honesty takes you only so far in marriage. While it helps get the facts out on the table, you must make wise decisions once the facts are known. That's why the Policy of Joint Agreement is as important as honesty. I feel that a decision agreed upon enthusiastically by you and your wife is more likely to be wise than any decision that one of you finds troublesome. So as you and Robin wrestle with these difficult problems, don't make any decision until you have considered enough alternatives to find one that meets with your enthusiastic agreement.

The first decision you will face is whether or not to continue being married at all. Your wife's affair is bad enough, but now you are faced with the prospect of raising someone else's child. It may sound strange for you to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement to the issue of whether or not to be married. You may think that it is for you and you alone to decide. But you are not divorced yet, and your wife has valuable wisdom to inject into your thinking. Her perspective may contain some of the most important information you will need to help you make an enthusiastic decision, so don't ignore it.

You are wondering if Robin really loves you and wants to be married to you? And you wonder why she doesn't seem to feel any remorse? Those questions would be answered as you discuss your future together in an effort to find enthusiastic agreement. Once you reach a joint agreement, you will understand her in a way that you never have in the past. That's the way enthusiastic agreement works. It's only possible when you understand each other.

There are many important issues to consider in deciding your future together. If your daughter were your only child, and if your wife were still in love with her ex-lover, who happened to be single and wanted to marry her, I would lean toward encouraging you to divorce. But since she is the mother of your two children, no longer loves her ex-lover, and wants to save her marriage, I would encourage you to remain married and raise all three children together.

There are many considerations that tug at a decision to marry or divorce, and as you discuss them with your wife you will probably find a clear answer that gains your mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

If you decide to remain married and create a mutually enjoyable future together, then the next decision you will need to make is how to treat Robin's former lover. Should he become a part of your family, with visitation rights as well as financial responsibility for raising his daughter? Or should he be out of your lives entirely?

As with the issue of divorce, this one should also be decided by enthusiastic agreement. But if you want my advice, I usually encourage a couple in your situation to keep the ex-lover away from your family. It may be difficult to engineer, but it is very important for Robin to try to avoid seeing or talking to him ever again. Granted, the affair may be over, but I am always concerned about the possibility of it becoming rekindled. If, for some reason, it is impossible to keep him away from his daughter, I suggest that you act as an intermediary, so that whenever he visits, he does not see or talk to Robin.

Another very difficult issue is whether or not to tell your daughter who her real father is. Again, I suggest that you reach an enthusiastic agreement before you make a decision. The Policy of Radical Honesty applies only to a husband and wife, and not necessarily to children. While I tend to value honesty in all situations, if you and Robin can enthusiastically agree to deceive your child about her real father, it's up to you.

But if you want my advice, I would encourage you to be honest with Robin's daughter very early in life, so that there are no surprises later. I think it's more important for her to know she can trust what you say, than that she thinks you are her real father. Eventually, she is likely to know the truth anyway, and if she was consistently told that she was your daughter, the truth might undermine her trust of you. Regardless of who her genetic father may be, you will be the father that cares for her most for the rest of her life, and she will know that about you as you raise her into adulthood.

Once you make these decisions, you have many more decisions to make, but they can all strengthen your relationship with Robin if they follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. While your situation is tragic, if you make wise decisions regarding your future, you will minimize the damage. And your new way to make decisions will greatly improve your lifestyle and marriage, improvement you have needed very badly.
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 12:04 AM
Julie~

Thank you for thinking of me, and going to all the trouble to post the articles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have in fact read them before, several times. Mostly before I confessed.

Those articles, and many kind but firm, tough love MB'ers, and of course God, are what got me to confess the A and probable OC to my H. When I initially came here, I was hoping to hear people agree with me that I should keep the A and baby's possible origins a secret. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I regret beyond measure my adultery. I regret that what I exposed in the truth telling hurt my H beyond measure, but I will never ever regret telling him the truth. It was the right, and only thing to do.

The best part is that I know ,that I know, that I know, my H loves this boy and me, BASED ON FACTS. What an unbelievable gift for all of us.

~ad

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 12:23 AM
AutumnDay has looooooooong been a fav of mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

and she knows that!

Her marriage has recovered, and they have a wonderful life .... all kit and caboodle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AD has earned this wonderful life with her consistent efforts and her beautiful spirit.

..... so there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep
Posted By: Frank57 Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 08:06 AM
Dear Autumn Day!

You have done the honourable and right choices ever since you confessed. I think your H is a privileged person. You have certainly redefined yourself to a better you and a better W. Be kind to yourself as well!
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 08:44 AM
Infidelity changes every life it touches. Relatively early in recovery I do not believe it ever changes life NET for the better, but that it changes lives is uncontestable.

After infidelity ,and in the absence of a time machine we are , each of us, left with deciding how to process the consequences of infidelity in the best way we are able.

It is a terrible thing for all concerned to conceive a child through infidelity. I physically flinch within just thinking of the reaction ADs usband may have had when he found out about the pregnancy...Dear God..and the indicators for the MOST terrible changes that can possibly be wreked on lives by infidelity are all set.

Yet AD-s husband would seem to be a most honourable man. MOST honourable. Being an FBS is alwasy heroes Gig IMO, and dealing with an OC is the 'hamburger hill' of FBS bravery.

Before Squids affair I may have wondered how a man can meekly take on an OC and his wife back after such a devastating blow BUT the Post-affair Bob sees nothing but grit, faithfulness and love that exceeds the websters meanings of the word in him.

His behaviour in respect of OC and A-D is to his eternal credit. And as a reward he has teh undying love and admiration of the woman he loves and a child to call him Dad , to love him and to love.

* Noodle, you KNOW I get as frustrated as you do at some of the true 'doormat' behaviour we see from literally 'pathetic' BS & FBS on these boards, but I cannot see how you can possibly imagine such a dynamic acceptance of AD-back into his arms and of the OC happened out of any SHRED of WEAKNESS from ADs Husband.

Opinions vary of course but my studies on here have seemed to indicate that the most successful recoveries occur in marriages characterised by an active forgiveness, not an expectation of penitence from the FWS, or assertion of indignation. I am trying to apply these tenets to my own situation, against my instinct. When I look at recovery successes like these folks here, I am inspired to try harder.

AD, her H and their child ( sure 'OC' ceased to be a valid moniker the SECOND AD and her H decided to fully accept the baby ?) seem to have a golden recovery, and the best possibly outcome from a sitch that seemed to indicate only tragedy and pain.

My $0.02

All blessings !
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 12:41 PM
Bob, and AD for that matter,

Nowhere did I say that ADs decision was weak, or doormatlike.

If you look at what was posted, what I actually said ..was that I do not go to preg/OC..it gives me the creeps, it makes me angry.

Now, truly what makes me angry is 1 that OC exist at all....and 2 BSs who allow themselves and their children to be utterly destroyed by the [still] WS and the OP/OC dance.

AD is remarkably fortunate in her circumstances..largely because OM was willing to disappear into the ether and cease to be a factor in the equation. In this situation I admit it is possible I could stand it..perhaps even come to love it..but no promises. My reaction is too strong. I'd be afraid I'd eat it. I'd rather walk away entirely than become a monster myself, and there is a real potential there, and I admit it.

So, I don't belong there, on the preg/oc board. I'm no help at all, don't have anything resembling the situation, and would probably cause a lot of pointless upset.

That's why I counseled LM the way I did. If nerves are raw in GQ..they are doubly so in preg/oc.

I am appalled by what I have found just lurking there, and would never..ever post. I'd like to, 'cause I certainly have my share of sincere questions..that would sincerely be nothing short of taking a gas can and a match to the forum, so they will go unanswered.

Again I say, I got the wrong stuff for the Preg/oc board.

Noodle
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:21 PM
Hi Noodle !

I was referring to AD H's decision to sponsor their new life, not Any weakness in AD.

You asked AD if her H has been "weak and doormatlike", here :

Did your H stand there and allow you to vacillate between he and OM..did/does he allow OM to have ANY role in OCs life? Did your H allow you to mistreat him, drop his standards of life, drop his plain old self respect etc in order maintain your presence in the M? Did he allow you to drag your children with him through the muck of your A?

I was just pointing out that the evidence would seem to indicate that AD's H could not possibly have operated recovery with that level of weakness as the extraordinary success they seem to have achieved has been large predicated around his active strength and forgiveness.
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:29 PM
Oops,

I meant to write ADs H. Small typo.

I think there is still a misunderstanding Bob.

I wrote on another thread that I often regard the BS in the OC scenario as being weak and dysfunctional. Not as a blanket statement..ie..if you accept an OC that makes you weak..but the behavior that I observe..often is weak in my judgement.

So AD asked..do you think MY H is weak.

And I replied..well, does he do X, Y, and Z? Then probably yes, otherwise no.

Does that make sense?

Noodle
Posted By: Bob_Pure Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:33 PM
'kay.

I still think AD's H rocks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BP
Posted By: Crazymum Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:55 PM


<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>
Posted By: Crazymum Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:56 PM
Yes Noodle, the oc shouldn't be here. The affair never should have happen, hence the child should have never been conveiced. Unfortuantly the affair happened and a child was born from it. Hindsight, to little to late. Now the Bs can either accept the child or leave, the Ws can acknowledge the child, keep it, or try and wipe their hands of it (easier for the woman) I personally don't see a spouse as being week or a doormat for staying with the WS dispite the Oc.

I to am in a simial situation like AD. I became pregnant due to my affair, my H new the truth long before the baby was born. He wanted that child to be his and HE signed the birth certificate. I sure as hell didn't expect him to have anything to do with the child and expected him to leave. What makes things worse is I became pregnant a second time. I did look into getting rid of the child, H told me I had to. I couldn't. At that time the marriage was bascially over. H stayed away from me during the pregnancy wanted nothing to do with it. I was in NC with Xmm. H surprised me at the birth, he was there, he signed the birth certificate again. That was 4 years ago. H and son and so close together you wouldn't believe that he wanted him gone. We have Nc with Xmm, want nothing to do with him.

Like stated, in the begining, these children shouldn't be here. But they are. I love my children to death. Yes I wish I would have done the right thing and conceived the children with my H. To little to late. H considers the 2 oc his own, gets pissed if anyone mentions that the Xmm is their bio father. Not in H eyes.
Posted By: Crazymum Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:57 PM


<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>
Posted By: Crazymum Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 01:59 PM


<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 02:02 PM
CM,

It must be a touchy subject..'cause your response in no way relates to anything I have said.

Yes, the existence of OC offends me. Period. Whether you love your child or not..whether your H accepts it or not..immaterial.

As for weakness and dysfunction on the part of the BS..it is not in my opinion the acceptance of OC that is weak..it is the myriad of OTHER behaviors that I'm judging.

Such as, multiple false recoveries, continued contact, continued lies, waffling between OP and S, etc. Allowing those behaviors is weak in my judgement. It would be weak in any BS..but the environment an OC creates sets the stage for this to be THE expected outcome. So, obviously I see it more there.

Noodle
Posted By: Crazymum Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 02:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> multiple false recoveries, continued contact, continued lies, waffling between OP and S, etc. Allowing those behaviors is weak in my judgement. It would be weak in any BS..but the environment an OC creates sets the stage for this to be THE expected outcome. So, obviously I see it more there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, allowing those behaviors is weak. But not all BS allow it. And just because there is an OC involved doesn'tmean that those things will happen and if they do, it doesn't mean it will continue to happne. Some WS wake up out of the fog and do what they should have done along time ago, put their spouse and family first and tell teh OP to take a hike.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The existence of an OC gives me the heebie jeebies </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The child is inoocent. Just like a child born from rape, incest or what ever else that was wrong. The child is innocent. Now the act that brought the child here gives me the heebie jeebies.

I feel that no matter how the child was conceived, the child deservs nothing but the best in life. The child deserves to be loved and not treated like a creature.

Now if you want to treat the Ws and the Op like a creature, go ahead, they deserve it.
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 02:30 PM
CM,

I agree.. just because there is an OC does not guarantee that there will be false recoveries and the like.

However, I think we both can agree that it is certainly a strong probability *if* we really believe what we espouse [that OP/WS are addicted to each other, that NC is required to break that addiction]. That's about what I see, too. Not all cases..certainly not. Very few sicknesses have a 100% mortality rate, but you are certainly more likely to die from some than others. You may die from the flu..people certainly do..you probably WILL die from smallpox.

Now, if AD doesn't mind me using her as a reference [I'll edit if you do..just let me know]..her situation is favorable, but not common.

Not too many parents are willing to never have any contact with their children. To give up their rights completely. Particularly Mothers. It really is a fortunate situation [that I have to admit leads me to suspect that OP does not know about OC..if OP does in ADs sitch..then I'd say it certainly isn't a common experience] in which the family can plausably close that door and integrate OC if the BS can stand to look it in the face.

I wouldn't compare it to a child of rape at all..while I'll give you the element of a poor beginning..the mother and the spouse are BOTH the victims. Not so in the case of an OC.

You'd have to turn it around so that the rapist gained custody and his spouse learned to deal. Even then the spouse is unlikely to harbor much antipathy for the victim.

Apples and oranges. I just can't seem to make that comparison link. Sorry.

I agree with you that the child is innocent, and deserves to be in an environment where it is loved and valued. Which is why I would probably advocate adoption as a good general practice.

Though the child is innocent..genetics will inevitably play their role. The child WILL resemble it's parents..and I personally am admitting that I could not guarantee that when it did, I wouldn't have antipathy for it as well.

I have said before, I'd rather walk away than be a monster myself. A lot of people make declarations of goodwill..but ignorantly. Not all, but some. I always wonder, let's see how you feel when that childs mannerisms mirror OPs..when it's voice inflections, and attitudes, and habbits are in your face reminders of a person with whom your spouse betrayed you.

Obviously not all FBS encounter difficulty in this area..but I would say that it is affecting enough to put that OC in an at risk for abuse category.

It's a lose/lose situation. Lots of variables that can not be foreseen.

Noodle
Posted By: swissmiss43 Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 02:38 PM
I have to comment on this...I read and posted on that other thread too.

I think whether an M can survive with an OC in the picture depends a great deal on the BS involved.

I think that but for the grace of god...there go I....

It was pure dumb luck that we aren`t dealing with an OC...it`s pure luck that ANY of us BS`s are not dealing with OC`s.

My H is not a "better" WS just because the OW didn`t become pregnant...he was just EXTREMELY lucky. And NOPE...neither one of them used protection...it was an ONS but as everyone knows it only takes once...

That said I would not be married today had there been an OC. But that`s all about ME...who I am as a person...they way I am.

I would not be able to sign over X amount of dollars every month without feeling overwhelming resentment. I would not be able to have the OC in my home.

But that is ME...it`s not a reflection on my H, or the OC...

I think Autumn Day is VERY lucky...she has herself a loving forgiving caring H...I think he`s on a higher spiritual plane than I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Honestly...that is what I think...that`s what I think of all BS`s who are able to forgive and recover from an OC situation. I admire that...personally I would not capable of that but I admire those who are.
It's a lose/lose situation. Lots of variables that can not be foreseen.

noodle,

That's just it...it is a lose/lose.

In order to have contact with an OC...the children of the marriage suffer.

In order to not have children of the marriage suffer, there must be NC with the affair child.

The thing is, the children of the marriage are no more deserving of love than the affair child.

ALL children are deserving of love regardless of their conception.

I am not sure what can be done when there is fear of the affair starting up again. It would seem that contact would keep going if the parties wanted to do that...regardless of a child being in the picture. I guess an element of "trust" would have to be there...and accountability.

Someone is going to be literally sacrificed...and I don't think that it HAS to be the affair child, simply because they are not the product of the marriage.

Hope I am not a buttinski. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JMHO
committed
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 03:05 PM
Cali,

If I get to pick..I'd sacrifice the OP. Good luck enforcing that if they don't agree..but that would be my choice. NC for either the OC/OP..or OP.

Honestly though..what I really see is near inevitable marriage breakdown regardless.

I think [and this is just my opinion] that when these situation do work out..it is a scenario in which against all probability 2 + 2 = 9..very illogical, near miraculous occurance, and as such should not be regarded as the norm.

The norm is for the OP to have continued contact [and continue to invade the marriage] and to be an element in the marriage thereafter.

When you say that affairees can maintain contact if they want in any case..what you are disregarding is the addiction factor. We believe that, right? That even if one party WISHED to end the A..having continued contact, and a child bond to boot, would make that nearly impossible. Like having just a little crack every day for the rest of your life and trying to fend off an addiction to it. Absurd. It won't work. NC is needed for a reason.

This doesn't even get into the resentment factor of all parties..and ugh, it's just a big mess.

In general, when an OC exists, I think it's time to check out.

When I see weakness, it usually comes in the form of refusal to see what is ever before their eyes. That the A is not likely to end, that they are not likely to recover in a manner that they desire..that waiting another year or three, or ten, will not change this based on the history of choices and actions up to that point.

It's BS fog. Denial and rationalization. Desperation. Despair. When they have come so far out from anything even resembling acceptable living conditions [to me of course] that were they to become conscious of the stark contrast between their life and that of those around them they might literally faint from shock.

I agree with Lemmonman..the entire concept of boundaries often becomes a mockery when an OP/OC is introduced nto the marriage.

The message becomes marriage at all costs. I think that is dysfunctional.

Noodle
Posted By: swissmiss43 Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 03:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
The message becomes marriage at all costs. I think that is dysfunctional.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle,

I don`t think this is what happens in all M`s with OC`s. I do think that many of the BS`s do set their boundaries...but boundaries are not one size fits all.

Some BS`s with OC`s are fine with contact...

Some are not...

Some BS`s insist on being the primary contact intermediary while others are willing to allow a third party to do it.

They do have several options to choose from.

Each BS with an OC decides for themselves what their boundaries are...and many of them can negotiate the situation so it is tolerable

I am with you though...if I had an OC to deal with...I would have walked away.

But I still believe that it is possible to recover with an OC. However recovery with an OC would have required certain things OF ME... things that I would NOT have been be willing to give.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>
Posted By: Crazymum Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 03:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that I have to admit leads me to suspect that OP does not know about OC..if OP does in ADs sitch..then I'd say it certainly isn't a common experience] in which the family can plausably close that door and integrate OC if the BS can stand to look it in the face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't for certian in AD's situation, but if a Mow becomes pregnant, even if the OM/MM knows about the pregnacy, there is no garuntee that he can be the father to the child. It depends on the state and the H.

In my situation, Xmm wanted to be on the birth certificate. The laws in my state are this, a child conceived and born in a marraige is considered to be the H. Xmm took me to court to try and overrule this and he lost.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In order to have contact with an OC...the children of the marriage suffer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, they do. My H also has an Oc. After 6yrs of trying to have contact and be on good terms with Xow, we gave up. It was damaging our family and affection our children.

So basically, there is NC with Xmm and the oc, and H has NC with his OC.

Legitimately, we are a blended family. But we don't act like or treat the 2 oc differently.

I think at one point this marriage should have been in the trash can, done and over with. oth H and I have made some horrible choices years ago. We worked like hell to come back from where we were.
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 03:37 PM
Daisy,

Don't make me get the stick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I said some and likely and usually and probable ..

you are rewriting me to have said all.

Noodle
Posted By: star*fish Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 03:40 PM
noodle,

One thing I wanted to mention because right now I'm participating in a class about infidelity....is about the "addictive" nature of affairs. The book we're covering is "Why We Love" by Helen Fisher the biochemist who actually did the ground breaking research that supports the addictiveness of affairs (almost all the infidelity experts were thrilled when what they knew imperically could finally be proven scientifically). The "attraction" stage of love which is characterized by high levels of dopamine and norephenphrine (powerful stimulants) and low levels of serotin (which creates obsessiveness) only last for a limited time....during that time...our spouses truly are "fogged" and act just like addicts. That's why Harley and others use that two year time frame for strategies like Plan B.

The biochemistry of affairs (the part that acts like an addiction in our brains) is not open ended...it DOESN't last forever (thank God! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...If it did, most of us could not stand it!) and certainly not for the entire life of a child. It peaks at around 6 months and lasts for appoximately eighteen months to two years...so just because a recovered WS may have to see an OP from time to time (hopefully not much at all...or only with his spouse being present)...it is not like getting a dose of cocaine forever *whew*.

True....accounts in the love bank NEVER close...so it's not that there is NO risk...but it's certainly not subject to the same addictive qualities that drive early affairs....and it can be POJA'd if the husband and wife can keep their own relationship honest, protected, loving and strong and BOTH spouses are committed to keeping their family together. Is it a more daunting challenge? wow you bet...but I have seen pretty amazing survival stories on the OC board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Posted By: swissmiss43 Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 04:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> I said some and likely and usually and probable ..

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I know this is the way you phrased it...which is the reason for the tone of my posts.

I think...if I read your posts correctly that you feel there is an OC involved that either the A will not end...OR that at some point the BS will just get fed up with the whole situation and walk away in most (but not all) cases.

Now I do think this true sometimes...but I don`t think it is necessarily the norm...especially if the couple has some type of professional counselling.

If they are having good outside help and BOTH spouses are committed then it can work.

I also think that just because there is an OC in the picture that does not mean that the WS would be less likely to want to repair the M or less likely to be willing to do the necessary work.

But however I do think an OC would require ALOT more from the BS. Now I don`t have any statistics on this...I have no idea how many BS`s do choose a D when an OC is involved...but I think of those who would choose a D...that would happen fairly quickly. I think a person would know almost immediately if they would be able to handle this or not.

The BS`s on the OC board have decided to try and work this out...and to me this is THE biggest hurdle to overcome when recovering from an OC/A. The attitude of the BS. The willingess to try. I do think that MOST of the BS`s there will be able to recover just by the fact that they are open to the idea.
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 04:49 PM
Pep~ Right back atcha'!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Frank~ Ok, you are always so good at popping in and saying such kind things to me during a US sleeping time zone, but you're not so good at popping back in so you can see I've properly thanked you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So...JIC you check back in this time...THANK YOU!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob~
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before Squids affair I may have wondered how a man can meekly take on an OC and his wife back after such a devastating blow BUT the Post-affair Bob sees nothing but grit, faithfulness and love that exceeds the websters meanings of the word in him.
His behaviour in respect of OC and A-D is to his eternal credit. And as a reward he has teh undying love and admiration of the woman he loves and a child to call him Dad , to love him and to love.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the very thing I'm trying to get across. I go a bit bonkers when someone even remotely suggests my H is weak. Nothing, absolutely nothing could be further from the truth.

Naturally when I stand up for him, most people will see it as me being subjective. So for your objective opinion, I thank you Bob. I thank you for believing me, but mostly for understanding the difference between being a doormat, and being a loving, forgiving man. For seeing a man who has within him the capacity to love the very person who is the product of the worst betrayal in his life, and equating that capacity with strength rather than weakness. Especially when all that is "normal" and "right" would indicate he should do otherwise.

Isn't it amazing how the Post A person tends to see things in a whole different light than the Pre A person? Bob, I'm quite certain my H would've flinched, or even felt physically ill at the very thought of me someday telling him I was most likely carrying another man's child. Who wouldn't be disgusted by the very thought? The very thought is a nightmare.

I think if you polled 100 people, most if not all would say there's no way they'd stay in a M where an OC was the outcome of their spouse's A. I planned on my H NOT staying. I was shocked by his decisions, but at no time did I see him as weak. He didn't drivel and say, "okaaaaay, I'll do whatever it takes to have you remain my wife....I'll live with your OC even though I don't really want too....x-om can be any part of baby's life he wishes..." He was firm in his decisions, very bold about his intentions. He made it abudantly clear his decisions were HIS, and that I wasn't forcing him into one single thing. He made choices of his own FREE WILL, he did NOT CAVE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Opinions vary of course but my studies on here have seemed to indicate that the most successful recoveries occur in marriages characterised by an active forgiveness, not an expectation of penitence from the FWS, or assertion of indignation. I am trying to apply these tenets to my own situation, against my instinct. When I look at recovery successes like these folks here, I am inspired to try harder.

AD, her H and their child ( sure 'OC' ceased to be a valid moniker the SECOND AD and her H decided to fully accept the baby ?) seem to have a golden recovery, and the best possibly outcome from a sitch that seemed to indicate only tragedy and pain.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two things you said here are very key..."against my instinct", and "from a sitch that seemed to only indicate tragedy and pain"

I believe the very tenets you speak of that make M recovery successful usually go against ALL human nature and instinct. Adultery and resulting OC DO indicate nothing but tragedy and pain. My H looked to God for answers when this happened. He'd tell you he granted me forgiveness and acceptance, in large part out of obedience to God. He said he looked at what the "world" would most likely tell him to do, and did the opposite...knowing that the opposite would most likely be what God would want him to do.

Forgiveness and the ability to NOT hold the betrayal over the betrayers head doesn't come easily or naturally to most people. My H and I are 22 months post D-day, and he has not once thrown anything in my face regarding the A. He throws my poor checkbook balancing habits in my face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but not the adultery. I have given him some moments in those months where it would be so easy for him to throw A in my face, but each time I believe he made a choice to take the higher road. It probably goes against his instinct, but he also realizes his reactions are his choice.

Not trying to toot my own horn here, but my H has said my true remorse carried a lot of weight in his decisions. If I'd been waffling at all, and non-remorseful, he might have forgiven, but he most definitely would not have put up with any of my s**t. We both did what is necessary of the BS and WS in order to have the best chance.

He said the fact that I broke my vows to him did not dictate that he should break his to me. Said he was sticking by the "for better or worse", saying if this wasn't the worse, didn't know what was, but he was staying.

This is really silly, but thank you also Bob for referring to us as folks. That's just what we are~~folks. Regular, ordinary people who took the ugliest of ugliest situations and decided together it would be the commencement of our new life together.

I'm glad our situation has inspired you. I wish nothing but the very best for you and Squid. I hope when it's all said and done, you and Squid will be able to say as my H and I do, "We wouldn't trade the M we have now for anything in the world, stains, warts and all..." . Not that you should be thankful for the A per se, but for the opportunity it provided in causing each of you to want to be a better spouse, a better person. To transcend the tragedy...

Kind regards,
~ad

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 05:24 PM
Hi all,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I am especially interested in Noodle's thoughts on these matters. At the risk of putting words in your mouth Noodle, I think YOUR point of view is one that is very typical. It probably at one time closely reflected my point of view when I was younger and before I came upon this site.

But, I must tell you that it was finding this site and learning ONE single story that changed everything in my way of thinking. Not just about infidelity or children produced by this infidelity, but about LIFE itself.

That SINGLE poster was K. I don't know if you have read his story. He still posts occasionally around here. But, ladies and gentlemen HIS situation and what he did with it, hit me like a ton of bricks. And I think you would do well to read his story some time.

In a nutshell his W had an A. He found out, did plan A, did plan B, worked with Steve Harley through the whole thing. He then finds out that his W is pregnant with OM's baby and ... he views it as an OPPORTUNITY to save his family, his marriage and perhaps his W. He does this and today that little boy is probably 6 years old. His older children love this child, he loves this child, and I presume his W loves this child.

It seems to me that what you will find in K's situation is also in many others that seem so sad and bad, that there is an OPPORUTNITY to make something very very good out of this situation.

It is hard to see this from the position of day to day living. It is hard to fathom that such a difficult situation could lead to an OPPORTUNITY for deeper love, deeper respect, and happiness. It is NOT the path anyone would choose, but it can be the path that brings everything together. The data is clear on this. Look at K, look at AD, look at CrazyMum. I would have never guessed such things years ago, but NOW I see the OPPORTUNITY.

It is there within an affair, it is there within an unwanted pregnancy, it is not where we would like to look for it, but it is there. Even Harley recommends that if there are no other children it is best for the W to leave to be with OM. Similarly for the H to leave and be with OW.

BUT, what is very clear is that it is an OPPORTUNITY if one has the strength to do it.

So these situations are very sad...until someone comes along and sees it as an OPPORTUNITY and then it transistions into something amazing.

I know from AD's posting of her H's comments that he viewed this as an OPPORTUNITY to make things work in their marriage and they have. I find it remarkable.

So Noodle and others please consider that within these very very desperate situation there resides an OPPORTUNITY to make something very very good. And people have indeed done just that.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 05:35 PM
JL,

You have my full agreement. That is not the point though. Cases such as this are the exception.

A BS who is in full awareness of themselves and their goal, seeing an opportunity and embracing it..that's the stuff that Myths are made of.

A WS who repents fully and makes a full turnaround and earns their way back into being regarded as a person of integrity.

Ditto. Priceless.

Yet, not what is happening. Not usually. The opportunity isn't taken. Neither are in possesion of that awareness and perseverance.

When I read, what I see are broken people. Not broken in a healthfull broken will sort of way..but a dysfunctional broken spirit sort of way.

People who have lost the will and ability to say "No, I will not allow this in my life."

It is always, next time..the NEXT offense..no wait, the NEXT one..and boundaries move and shift and cease to exist.

My personal bias regarding OC is precisely that.

I think though that what I see being played out, and advice that encourages this is all too common.

Noodle
Posted By: Crynsomuch Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 05:35 PM
"Not too many parents are willing to never have any contact with their children. To give up their rights completely."

Noodle,

My H would completely give up his rights in a heartbeat. My H and the ow had a short term affair. She became pregnant within two weeks of meeting him. This I might add was before I informed her that he was married. Their relationship ended 5 weeks later.

There was absolutely NC between the two of them after that fateful 7 weeks. The ow NEVER told my H that she was pregnant. He only found out about the existence of oc when he was served paternity papers 15 months after their relationship ended. Never once did she try to contact him. She went on state aid to have the state do the searching for her. She didn't even try. Hell, I found him in 10 minutes using search engines. I found her in 2.

To my H this child is not really his. Yeah, it's his dna but he has absolutely no connection. How do you have a connection with some child you didn't know existed, certainly didn't want and now see as representative of what you did wrong? The last thing in the world my H wants is a relationship with the oc. I may be being presumptuous but it's my opinion that the ow doesn't want him involved either hence her decision to not inform him of her pregnancy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that these cases are situational. It really depends on the specifics.

I would like to add that I would never, ever subject my children to the ow/oc drama. It is a line I've drawn firmly in the sand and will NOT cross. Everyone has boundaries and those are mine.

Cryn

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Crynsomuch ]</small>
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/16/05 06:13 AM
Noodles,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have my full agreement. That is not the point though. Cases such as this are the exception.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps, but probably NOT as much as YOU think, given that it is estimated that roughly 10% of babies are NOT fathered by the person who thinks they are the father. I am betting a lot more suspect than let on. Further, a worthy goal might be to up this percentage of people that do make it. It however takes the efforts of both parties and it is NOT without pain, that is for sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A BS who is in full awareness of themselves and their goal, seeing an opportunity and embracing it..that's the stuff that Myths are made of.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not myths Noodle, just happy endings. You have posters on this thread who have done it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A WS who repents fully and makes a full turnaround and earns their way back into being regarded as a person of integrity.

Ditto. Priceless.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, and as for the innocent child? I think the child may be easier, if the marriage can be restored. It truely takes what AD described on the part of both parties. But, when it happens it is indeed "priceless".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, not what is happening. Not usually. The opportunity isn't taken. Neither are in possesion of that awareness and perseverance.

When I read, what I see are broken people. Not broken in a healthfull broken will sort of way..but a dysfunctional broken spirit sort of way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and your point is that no one should try because many or some fail? Given that when people come here and we don't know them, should we just say "dump the bum/bumess" and not encourage them to try if they can? I don't think so. Because neither you nor I can tell who has the strength, the partner, and the will to do it IF ONLY someone had encouraged them and shown them that it is possible. We don't know do we? We don't even know it about ourselves.

Look at the number of posters that come here and say "I always side if my spouse cheats, it is over." And yet here they are trying to rebuild the marriage, and often successfully. I would have said the samething before I found this site.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People who have lost the will and ability to say "No, I will not allow this in my life."

It is always, next time..the NEXT offense..no wait, the NEXT one..and boundaries move and shift and cease to exist.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! but Noodle, the idea here is to offer them ways to say yes and influence the outcome. And after they have tried this, they are encouraged to look at the DATA, which is the spouses response to their efforts. Then they are encouraged to go to plan B which leads to the end of the A, or the end of the marriage. I don't see weakness in this. It is taking their reticence to act and giving them a path to act that can lead to several outcomes. BUT the operative word is ACT, not sit in denial that something must be done.

The idea is to give strength to those that don't have it, so that eventually they can act in a manner that suits them best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My personal bias regarding OC is precisely that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle, think you confuse the concept of "allow" in ones life, with the decision making process of "addressing" what has happened in ones life. Theoretical boundaries are often supplanted by reality, and thus one sees the boundaries move some once reality has entered. That does not mean they are weak, or defenseless, or hopeless. It means they are confronted with something they thought would NEVER happen, and it did. So one can simply RUN from it, or one can stop and think about it before making a decision.

I think you are advocating RUN no matter what. I that correct?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think though that what I see being played out, and advice that encourages this is all too common.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you might be misinterpreting what is being played out. Advice that encourages people to think before they act is good. Advice that points out that there are other possible solutions is good. Advice that encourages someone to do all they can to change a situation before leaving it is good, because when they do leave they have NO regrets. Advice that encourages learning what happened and why BEFORE making a decision is good.

Those are the things I believe. I have in fact advised people here to really consider leaving the situation they are in. I am not marriage at all costs. I agree with Harley that more marriages and families could be restored, rebuilt than currently are IF people would take the time to try and rebuild, or recover the marriage BEFORE they decide to leave it. Not all will make it, but some will.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: Autumn Day Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/16/05 06:22 AM
noodle~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you look at what was posted, what I actually said ..was that I do not go to preg/OC..it gives me the creeps, it makes me angry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually you said, you "get angry with all parties involved". That's what got to me. Now though, after you've expounded on what you exactly meant by the comment, I totally hear what you're saying. It's not ALL parties you're angry with, but rather WS who continue to behave like a WS, and BS's who let them, (I know it's deeper, but that's the jist, right?).

I wish you didn't post blanket statements in what I see as a hit and run fashion. You are a very good and intelligent poster, when you are asked to explain your POV. I appreciate that, just wish you would take the time in your intitial post on a topic that you do in your follow up posts. But, that's just me and definitely my own opinion or "pet peeve" if you will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AD is remarkably fortunate in her circumstances..largely because OM was willing to disappear into the ether and cease to be a factor in the equation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a lot of truth in this statement. However, I think we would've found a way to make it work if he wasn't willing to disappear. My H based his decision of forgiveness and acceptance before we were certain he'd stay away. By state laws alone, we're not completely out of the woods as to him staking any claims on the baby. I wholeheartedly agree though, it has made recovery much easier to NOT have x-om around and wanting a role in OC's life.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am appalled by what I have found just lurking there, and would never..ever post. I'd like to, 'cause I certainly have my share of sincere questions..that would sincerely be nothing short of taking a gas can and a match to the forum, so they will go unanswered.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you know your tolerance level, and I respect you for recognizing it. Since you think my situation is the exception, I probably can't help you with your questions, but if you ever want to ask some of those sincere questions, I'd sure try to answer. Just let me know...anytime. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, if AD doesn't mind me using her as a reference [I'll edit if you do..just let me know]..her situation is favorable, but not common.

Not too many parents are willing to never have any contact with their children. To give up their rights completely. Particularly Mothers. It really is a fortunate situation [that I have to admit leads me to suspect that OP does not know about OC..if OP does in ADs sitch..then I'd say it certainly isn't a common experience] in which the family can plausably close that door and integrate OC if the BS can stand to look it in the face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mind being a reference at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

However, I did tell x-om about the P, and that baby was likely his. He had no problem walking away. Some would say that was awful of him, and maybe it is, but I'm glad for his *awfulness*. It has made things way less complicated for us. As far as I know, he never knew the outcome of my P. For all I know, it's possible he didn't believe I was P, so has never given it a second thought he may have a bio child walking this earth. I still worry though, (but a little less each day), that he'll show up to see if I had the baby, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Though the child is innocent..genetics will inevitably play their role. The child WILL resemble it's parents..and I personally am admitting that I could not guarantee that when it did, I wouldn't have antipathy for it as well.

I have said before, I'd rather walk away than be a monster myself. A lot of people make declarations of goodwill..but ignorantly. Not all, but some. I always wonder, let's see how you feel when that childs mannerisms mirror OPs..when it's voice inflections, and attitudes, and habbits are in your face reminders of a person with whom your spouse betrayed you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhh, but noodle this is where my situation is different than most as well. My H, (probably in his wisdom and self protection, and to aid in keeping OC separate from A/x-om~~as JL once pointed out to me), chose to never know who x-om is, (and no, he isn't someone in my H's life like a friend or something). He doesn't know his name, doesn't know where he lives, and doesn't know what he looks like. He only knows he's a SG, his age, and that I told him of the P. So, he doesn't know if the baby resembles the x-om in any manner at all. Pluse, we've not even done DNA, remember?...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's a lose/lose situation. Lots of variables that can not be foreseen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just flat out differ with this opinion. It's a lose/lose situation only if we choose to do the things that cause it to be a lose/lose situation. We will deal with the unforseen when we see them, and hopefully our choices will continue to cause our situation to be a win/win, or is that lose/win? I'm not sure what one should call it.

~ad
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The biochemistry of affairs (the part that acts like an addiction in our brains) is not open ended...it DOESN't last forever (thank God! ...If it did, most of us could not stand it!) and certainly not for the entire life of a child. It peaks at around 6 months and lasts for appoximately eighteen months to two years...so just because a recovered WS may have to see an OP from time to time (hopefully not much at all...or only with his spouse being present)...it is not like getting a dose of cocaine forever *whew*.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star,

That's how I perceive it too.

If it lasted *forever* then it would be impossible for divorced parents to co-parent without fear from the new spouse that it would "take up" again. It would have to wane over time.

That's why I think it is possible for them to co-parent...even if accountability is required...and the spouse is involved in ALL aspects.

Hope I was clear in my explanation.

committed
Posted By: Frank57 Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 07:43 PM
Hey Atumnday!
I just checked in! I dutifully acknowledge your “Thank you!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This is an interesting thread by the way.

I believe the love, and the feeling of love very often grows out of us acting in a loving way. When we give, our love is strengthened. I think this is so with our S, and it is the same way with an OC. The child will very soon change status from OC to DC (dear child) when the BS starts nursing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is perhaps in conflict with the love bank theory, but I still think it is so.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>
Posted By: Frank57 Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 07:44 PM
Hey Atumnday!
I just checked in! I dutifully acknowledge your “Thank you!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This is an interesting thread by the way.

I believe the love, and the feeling of love very often grows out of us acting in a loving way. When we give, our love is strengthened. I think this is so with our S, and it is the same way with an OC. The child will very soon change status from OC to DC (dear child) when the BS starts nursing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is perhaps in conflict with the love bank theory, but I still think it is so.
Posted By: star*fish Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/15/05 07:58 PM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I read, what I see are broken people. Not broken in a healthfull broken will sort of way..but a dysfunctional broken spirit sort of way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle....I see many people like this too <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ...it's heartbreaking, because I worry about their ability to be whole or happy again. Oh I'm sure you don't believe I really care about you....but I just can't seem to help myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You're one of the people I worry most about. You seem so stuck in these angry thoughts and posts....and I worry about how healthy that is for you. Lemonman is all about the "logic"...I don't worry about him so much. He gets angry when folks don't stand up for themselves or are mistreated. He gets mad...and that's really different from wanting to vomit. LOL

Words like "creature" "spawn" "disgusting" "sickening" etc....well, they are "hate speech"....and hate destroys the hater far more completely than the hated. You might say...I don't hate anyone...they just "digust" me or "make me sick"...but it's semantics....destructive for this board yes, but mostly for you.

There is an old Chinese proverb that says: "Those who seek revenge should dig two graves."

Martin Luther King said it even better in this passage from his book "Strength of Love":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably no admonition of Jesus has been more difficult to follow than the command to love our enemies…Far from being the pious injunction of a Utopian dreamer, the command to love one’s enemy is an absolute necessity for our survival. Love even for our enemies is the key to the solution of the problems of our world…

Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend. We never get rid of an enemy by meeting hate with hate; we get rid of an enemy by getting rid of enmity. By its very nature, hate destroys and tears down; by its very nature, love creates and builds up. Love transforms with redemptive power.

Hate is just as injurious to the person who hates. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it even causes them to describe strength as weakness and weakness as strength.

When a BS...any BS, get's "stuck" hating the people involved (or giving them enough power to feel sickened), rather than the evil acts they accomplished (and many do)...they get stuck in a place where forgiveness is not possible, healing is stalled, grief becomes entrenched, and dysfunction blooms. They become a bigger threat to their marriages (and their spirits) than the evil that was done to them IMO.

You're wrong that many many folks don't move out of that dark dysfunctional place....life goes on, people getting tired of feeling sick and fractured. I know at one point I finally said to myself...HOW LONG am I going to suffer for something I didn't do??? I was just SICK of feeling sick!! There is a whole legion of folks here who have come and gone (some have remained, like K and myself...others are just living their lives and have moved on...no longer needing MB), as well as those who have not....but you haven't, and maybe for that reason you doubt that it's possible as often as it is possible....just an idea.

There is no way to heal a broken spirit without getting rid of the hate (for the people...not the act!) and finding forgiveness. I wonder if this is a big part of why you just don't seem to be happy or moving forward so slowly with recovery....I don't know...I'm just asking. It may seem like a myth to you...because it hasn't happened to you yet (but I think it will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But not has long as you continue to harbor hate. Hating the act that created these children is something that any healthy person can identify with and almost every person on this site would agree with (we are all SICKENED and disgusted at the thought of our spouses entwined with someone else). It's easy to look on these children as a "symbol" of that disgusting act. It is for certain the embodiment of that act...but it is NOT the act itself. None of us have a say so in our own biological creation. We are the ones who really become the "creatures" when we hate.

Don't you ask "why?" these people make you sick or the existence of OC give you the heebie jeebies? You admit you can't explain it...and it's not important to explain it here...but I do hope you explore that on your own. You don't even know them...they represent nothing that has affected you personally, and my guess is if you actually did see or know these children..it would be much harder to feel the disgust you do while you looked into one of their beautiful faces. It's easier to be disgusted with what we don't know. The power to make you sick doesn't come from them noodle...it comes from you. I really hope you start to ask yourself why? Do you really want to continue to give those thoughts power?

Like JL, K, and many others here....I've seen great opportunity to rebuild marriages that are better than the ones some of us left behind in spite of the affairs....even in spite of children born from those affairs.

Last time I was affected by something you said that was kinda inflamatory....I was really stupid...I jumped all over you and made a mess of things...just throwing gasoline on the fire. Since that time, I've read many of your posts and realized what an exceptional person you are....how skilled you are with words...even angry words....and I have truly come to respect you and care about you. So please forgive me if I said anything you find offensive, but I promise you that I wrote this with caring intention and a sincere desire to help.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Posted By: Archuletan Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/16/05 03:36 AM
Noodle, you are hurting posters.

You have stated you cannot post on P/OC because of your "creeps" on this topic, I suggest you do not post on the subject of OC here as well.

As you know posters who have never had infidelity in their lives differ very much in their "I would NEVER" proclamations from those who have.

It is the same with OC.

Take your discussion to the appropriate forum if you wish to continue.
Posted By: noodle Re: Noodle--that explains some things - 03/16/05 03:52 AM
Archuletan,

Of course I will comply as you wish. May I respectfully suggest though, that you take into consideration of your criticism..that I did not begin this discussion..I was called out. I have done nothing but try to answer others with as much respect and clarity as I am able.

If you find the topic offensive, I have no problem with dropping it.

If you find my position offensive, I have no problem with not discussing it.

Suggesting that I am hurting posters and not backing this assertion up, and furthermore suggesting that I am the author of this discussion with a cease and desist offends me .

I answered *here* because I was called out to answer *here*.

Noodle
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