Feeling neglected here at MB. Doesn't anyone here like me? (yes SS and svb you DO count)

I know that I don't always post consistently and i tried to be an "Idiot" but I don't always have the time. But I read pretty darn thoroughly and just don't respond alot because of time restraints, no good answers and bad typing skills. Or is this like the gas stations in the "bad" locations which for some weird bermuda-triangle-like reason just don't get the traffic that the gas stations right next-door and across the road do?! IS it my name,my sappy signature, my questions, my online communication skills or have I just been unable to "break" into this "clique"? Doesn't anyone have any advice, questions or even dirty jokes for me?

I REALLY need some help with Plan A and B. Trying to do a Plan A right now, but failing somewhat(see other thread). Been very down, a little better today.

Very unsure of self, because H will not admit to any wrongdoing. He will not admit to talking to anyone (when I first taped him, almost 2 years ago), says that he was talking to himself. I waver on believing him, thinking that I am crazy & hearing things and yet "knowing" that his answers make no sense and I CAN (faintly but definitely) hear a womans voice in that recording.And it is NOT the radio, she calls him "888", a name that he only goes by at work. He has recently lied to me about many interactions with coworkers, esp. female. It scares me (but don't know if this is pertinant to my other sitch, except for the trust thing).

Can I go to Plan B with this less-than-confidant attitude? I know that I am very depressed and hurting more and more everytime H and I do interact for any period of time. Can only stay "up" around him for short periods, I am jsut so disappointed in him and his presumed "value" of our M.

Each step that i take that doesn't help, hurts more. Please, some advice??? PLEASE. HELP.

I am very confused and Lost, need help with trail marking. I started a plan b letter, but need to do a little more before posting it. In the meantime, I am faltering in everything that I do. Teary eyes don't help with my vision.

jls

Oh please. Don't think that. I needed a lot of help, too, and I found it was totally erratic who got a lot of traffic and who didn't.

There's a few things you can do to help: more, shorter posts are usually better than long ones. I find I'm more included to go to short threads rather than long sagas that need a lot of reading to catch up -- but that's me.

Also, some posts require specific expertise -- either about peculiar situations, legal advice, violence, etc. -- that not everyone has experience with.

I notice you don't hesitate to bump your own posts. Don't hesitate to bump your own posts. If you really want help, don't be afraid to ask. But a lot of the response-level is dependent on time of day, sunspots, and the direction of the wind.

JLS, no advice just {{{jls}}}

i will go read and see if i can help...brb

my first question is do you know why his first two marriages dissolved? is what you know from someone other than him?

is this a pattern that others have been through with him?

lets go back and figure that out....

Thanks so much you guys (genericly spoken). I am sorry, I am just in a po'po' me stage the last few days. I HATE being whiny (at first typing that came out "shiny" but that makes no sense, so much like the rest of my life - Waa, there I go again).

Sometimes this is my lifeline, my only clingings to "reality" (ironic, hmm). And then I feel like I am in high school. Why aren't my threads long like g.gs and cc's...why; I am asking that alot lately. I really do feel lost, and like ANYBODY, except me, must know SOMETHING.

Well, do ya'???

jls

Weelll nikko,

I don't know that much. His 2nd wife, I knew a little. She was an alcoholic, his words and others ( I work in a bar near where they lived). NO, there was NOTHING between him and I then. They were both nice to me whne my BF and his close friend got into very serious car accident. Long story, but years later we reconnected.

His first W left him and hurt him very much. That is his story, and that she wanted more than he could give, financially. They were young, in their 20s. Then his 2nd also couldn't have kids..one of the reasons I think he fell for me so hard and fast. I had my DD and was a very good single mom, going to college....

Oh, and he met his 2nd W at work and probably had A with her while she was still M, he was not. He told me that years ago and then recanted. Then others told me that also. That always bothered me some.

He really is not emotionally there much. I often wonder...but he is perfect in my moms eyes and his family's also.

BBL, have to take the cat for booster,
jls

ps. the animal thing really bothers me alot. Thats a hard POJA, and then he wavers on how significant it is to him. VERY to me!!!

Well...I do have to admit, you do sound whiny sometimes.

Think of this as Reality Time you are going through, in this part of your life. Your illusions about the way things are are getting smashed. Use all that energy to learn to see more clearly. That helps reduce the self-pity. If you hadn't had so many illusions, you wouldn't need so much disillusioning. At least, that's what I try to think in my own sitch.

The whininess is caused by wanting things that aren't true to be true. F'rinstance, trying to get WH to support the way you saw him, and act in the way you hoped he would, and always thought he was, rather than accepting what he actually is, right now. Act on what you see -- not what you want to be there. Try to be very clear-headed.

Somewhere someone had a post about moving from "effect" to "cause" -- good post if you can find it. Use all this to empower you, not weaken you.

What is wrong with this statement?

Do you see it...?

I am a pragmatic thinker. Here is how it works for me. Look for the lowest common denominator of the problem to help me define the base of the problem. Work from there to find a workable solution.

You seem to be unable to define the problem. Start there. Make the problem clear to yourself in as few words as possible. Be specific and be very clear ... you (nor I, nor anyone else) can find solutions when the problem remains undefined.

Pep

Hey jls,

I wasn't able to grasp what you mean by this -

"ps. the animal thing really bothers me alot. Thats a hard POJA, and then he wavers on how significant it is to him. VERY to me!!! "

What animal thing are you talking about??? Blessings to you!

Pep,
I hate to admit this, but you lost me. I think ("know") that H had at least one inappropriate conersation with a female(?). The conversation itself was demeaning to me and our M, even if he was talking to "self", as he claims (and I do not believe). I will link or retype the Parts of the conversation that are clear and relevant later, it is time consuming. H adamently denies that he was talking to anyone and even denies things that he said or has never been able to explain why he was saying these things.

CSue,
The animals are his, mine and the kids- but my "thing". We have 6 horses (1 mine, 2 D14s, 1 S7s, 1 Hs, 1 mini, kinda still S7s and 1 "we" are trying to sell). And 1 boarder, she cleans stalls for me 3X a week. We have 3 dogs, 3 cats, 1 pygmy goat, 2 chickens, 1 fish and 1 swimming turtle, and 2 guinea hens. I could go into more of how we obtained all of these, but he would say that it is mostly me (sorta' true, 'cause I don't mind it and don't say no too much to HIM or the kids). Actually I do now, because almost all of the animal caretaking falls to me - although I like it mostly, I get resentful of not enuf help (not usually tho), and crazy about everyone elses resentfulness about me taking the TIME to take care of all of these pets (of which they are not all mine).

This "animal" thing was one of the major probs that he spoke of (LBing bigtime) on the recording, after he had told me on numerous occasions that it was fine and did NOT bother him at all! I had known that it was timeconsuming in the few weeks before I recorded him, he was acting angry and distant, and I was asking him if that was a prob or what was the prob, in a very nice way, I might add -I just did. He was telling me that he loved his little "farmgirl" and I was reading too much into everything and ALL WAS FINE. HA

will write more later, have to pick up S7,

jls

Please don't feel like there are clicks here. I have over 8,000 posts, and lots of time, I posted to myself.

It seems like you have been putting up with the uncertainty of all of this for two long. Have you done a rock solid Plan A? Does your WH have periods of time where he is unaccounted for?

Is he willing to meet your EN's? Do you meet his?

Do you spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together?

Hang in there, we'll figure this out.

YOU said:


I said:


here is what I think is wrong ... you are unsure about yourself ... and this (you say) is because your husband will not admit to wrongdoing ....

And what if he does not ever EVER EVER admit his wrong doing? Do you remain unsure of yourself, awaiting something he says or does?

This is a major mistake in my mind.

Feeling sure of yourself probably has nothing to do with whatever he admits or denies.

You may be unsure about certain things about him and some of his secretive activities, but this should be no reason for you to have doubts about yourself. This is an example borrowed functioning, and it is a bad pit to fall into.

You think you cannot be sure of yourself unless he verifies you? Are you waiting for him to become a better man so you can be sure of yourself?

I think this is putting things in the wrong order, if you ask me.

START being sure of yourself inspite of of his inability to be honest with you.

Be uncertain of him and certain about you.


Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hunny, what he told you is not true and you know it ... so don't buy into this.

Make your decisions on what you know is correct and not on whatever nonsense he tries to feed you.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That is alot of it believer! He also has lied to me recently and then denied it, about mostly innocent yet flirtatious interactions with female coworkers.

I bought the books when I found this site (I think Aug or fall of 2003) , among other books. I "made" him read them with me and tried to do some of the work. We did the EN questionare back then also. The only EN that I don't meet sufficiently (that he would admit, and I kinda forced it out of him) was SF. Tried to fix that , but very hard when don't trust!! And when he seems to have NO interest in meetin my ENs, which I have been honest about for years. O and H, Conversation...these are probably my top 2!!! Sometimes it is hard to say, when you want most what you are not getting and take the rest for granted. We both do that, I know.

I did a pretty good Plan A, off and on through the last 2 years, but recently we separated because I am jsut TOO miserable(and the lying about coworkers thing). I am pretty sure that he really loves me again- I am sorry that it is not enuf, when we cannot address the issues and keep this from happening again (whatever "this" is).

I have really tried to improve myself- Honestly I have- and think that I have done pretty good. The house is cleaner. My DD gets horses in at nite now. She was going to a private school 45 min away and working after school to help pay the tuition back then. She would leave at 720 am and get home at 530-600 pm. H would take her, I would pick her up, with S (2-5 yrs) at that time - she went for 3 1/2 years. She had plenty to do, for a 8-12 year old child. We had 4-5 horse then, she rode alot. I did all the work (except for feeding in the morning). I did not get home from picking her up until 530-600 pm, therefore dinner wasn't always ready and horse might still need to be brought in. Remember, my S was 2 or so, he would have to go to barn with me or I would do it when he was napping. It was much better when he started K, and even pre-K for 3 days a week, 3 hours those days.

I knew that H might be bothered, especially in spring when horses stay out later and I would be starting dinner or not to it yet, getting horses in... when he got home. This all happened Spring of 2003. I had asked him if it bothered him (he was XTREMELY MOODY) at this time and apologized to him (before he complained, he actually never complained) that things were so hectic. Like I said, according to H, things wer great, he SAID, but was acting very weird. That is why I taped him. He helped out at nite with dinner, kids and did a lot of laundry in morn and nite, back then. Now i do most of laundry and things are much more organized with kids, MOST of the time. I AM RESENTFUL NOW!!! He had complained about having to do too much work outside before all this, so I had been doing most of mowing, weedwhacking... I have always worked very hard at home, my house is not filthy by any means (esp. with kids,cats,dogs in/out), and participate in kids life ALOT!!! Also balance checkbook (he pays bills), and keep up with alot of paperwork (whenI can) around house. Cluttered sometimes, but not bad at all.

Next post will re-account recording ,sorry for all the background again. And venting and such.

By the way, A.M., by nature I really an not a whiny person (I recently had one of the 2-3 best compliments of my life- "If you don't like jls, you don't like life"). But you ARE RIGHT: GROW, BE STRONG, RUN FREE- as one of my best gf's likes to say to her kids- is a good one for me to remind myself of.

jls

Oh, I have begged, pleaded and cajoled, yet H will NOT spend anywhere near 15 hours a week with me. And when we do spend time together he is quiet and sullen alot. i don't even want 15 hourse with THAT recently. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So jls,

Has your husband had an affair, and you're wondering if it's really over?

Sounds like you suspicious of his flirty behavior with other women; am I right?

And counseling....have you been in counseling, either individually or MC?

Guess what I'm trying to get to is understanding the problem vs the symptoms. By the way you describe his behavior something isn't right....and it sounds like you're not happy in your marriage either.

This is what I mean. Whether or not it is in your nature -- this is whining.

You say he "really" loves you -- yet the reality doesn't seem to show it, unless there is something you're not saying.

This is the reality of the man -- after all the begging, pleading, and cajoling. This is what he is.

Suppose that this is all there is in the box? This is your future.

What would you do? Would this be good enough for you? You've sung, you've danced, you've bought the negligees from Victoria's Secret -- still no change, and apparently no honesty. The illusion might be that you keep hoping the next trick you do will effect a change -- and you keep getting disappointed, and begging, pleading, and cajoling again.

One idea: suppose you just pretend you are single (except for dating), and plan your life, hobbies, friendships without regard to him. Get a head start on the rest of your life. Another idea: Plan B, saying regardless of what he says he is doing, you are unhappy and have decided to proceed with your life without him. Let's explore a few other options besides hoping he will change.

This may not be what you want; it may be what you are stuck with. But this was my point: what is reality telling you? Act on that, and not on what you wish him to become.

Pepperband (where did you come up with this name anyway?),



Do you ever get tired of being told you are right, or of being right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

That is close to being what I recently told my best gf. I let him make me feel uncertain about this and other things. That is why I think that I must go to Plan B soon. The more that he is not around, the more i feel confident (at least sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ). And the more that he denies things and goes back to recant a story AGAIN, the more that I become hurt and ANGRY and lose respect & love for him!!



I don't know what happened to ME! I used to be fairly confident. Of course, the suspected A doesn't help. I have a bad history of this in past Rs and my dear ol' dad did this to my mom for years. And she took the blame, she told me once that she had fallen out of love with him, maybe never had loved him the "right" way and shouldn't had Md him and he knew this on some level. She was actually glad at times that he wasn't coming to her for SF. Oh my dear dysfunctional famiy. Maybe I am just as messed up as them after all. I tried so hard to work thru all of that in my 20s, major depression for years, usually R related, abandomment issues.... A.M., I WAS whiny then for awhile. Then I had my DD and "thought" that I had put it all in perspective. HA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And A.M., you too, you are right too. That is one of the things that I keep asking myself. Is this what I want? I feel like I have a shell of a M, no emotional depth, not mearly enuf honesty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And I have bought the not-exactly-victoria -secrets, but youknow. yes it helps his SF, but I keep thinking what about me. I try so hard and thenmy taker comes out and boy-howdy does it come out sometimes. Begging and cajoling, maybe, but sometimes demanding and swinging, I am ashamed to admit.

Back again later, moving horses out to pasture (have to wean them onto the heavy grass in the spring). Oh I still love the seasons and sthe animals, pain as it all can be. Same as my kids, well notasmuch(pain/kids yes, love kids more, yes) tho-for sure.

jls

Well, we all do some of this stuff. Certainly I have.

But it's pretty clear he's content with the status quo. You are not. Since he's rock-hard and adamant about not changing a thing -- this puts you in the position of dancing, self-questioning, begging, IC, and pulling at him (which exhausts you and irritates him). You will try anything to get him to change. (Jeez, this sounds so familiar! I guess I did some of this long ago...)

In my opinion, it's time to leave him alone and figure out what you want in your life, and how much you're willing to pay for it. If you absolutely determined to keep your marriage, maybe you do just want to lead a separate life for awhile, rediscover that cheerful, outgoing person you say you were. Be pleasant when you see him, come back by bedtime -- but have your good times elsewhere. Take up sky diving. Have lunch/dinner with friends. Entertain separately. Maybe that will force him to a decision -- maybe it will eventually force you to a different one.

But YOU take charge of your life, and let him stew in his own weird mess.

Hi there AM martin ! >waving< I like your post.

"Pepperband" is a reference to my favorite Beatles album (1967). Sort of my coming of age album.

JLS .... your focus is away from yourself, and you have lost control of your center. Re-focus on yourself, just as AM Martin suggested, and get yourself whole .... stop fighting with your H ... it does no good and just wears the heck out of you... give him no reason to defend himself .... just keep to your own agenda .... for now. When you feel stronger, you will be ready to take a stand.

Pep

ok---have nothing to add at the moment to what pep and am martin have already said.....but i have decided i am not getting all the farm animals my son and i are envisioning when we move!!!! LOL wanted 2 horses and some other animals....way more work than i have time for at the moment...lol we will keep going to the local horse farm/ranch instead...lol

Hi Pepper!

nikko,

LOL, It's really not that bad. I really do enjoy it, but it takes away from the family (like a "real" job and weird hours). When we do the things together: Mardi Gras Pet Parade with goat, horseshows, play outside or brush dogs (not nearly enuf brushing), THAT is worth it!! i ask everyone in the family, H, DD, DS at random intervals: "Do you sometimes wish that we hadn't done this, that we just lived in town in a subdivision (EWW) and life was simpler. Each and everyone has said that they love this. But H has qualified and said that he hadn't known how much work it would be and he wasn't sure that he would do it ALL again. I agreed that it is alot of work, but i didn't know it either, i had just boarded horses and had dogs/cats. I still would do it the same and maybe then some, esp. with older kids. D14 is a BIG help now, altho she gripes. S7 doesn't help much (a little gardening, animal-brushing, feeding... -and I mean LITTLE) and he said, just today, that he wishes we had 45 animals!!! I just laughed and said that we were doing fine. --By the way, H brought home chickens (1 is a rooster and MEAN) on my B-day last year and promised to take care of them and hmm, well it's usually just part of my chores.

He is also resentful of the work that the kids are. There was a thread on EN forum about that recently- Would you do it again and have kids, if you knew now. AMAZINGLY so many had said no - I have this D14 who is such a SNOT sometimes, but wouldn't trade her for a million bucks (maybe two?) - I do a HUGE part of the kidstuff. At times, he had to give S (when he was younger) a bath and make them do homework or drive them somewhere. OMIGOD, How awful -sarcasm detectors going off-.

A.M. and all, I have been doing alot of that. He whines (there's that word) when he's not invited, so I invite him and he is often sullen. Not to mention, must admit here, I am MAD at him. I get tired of doing what I see as "it all" ( I do know that it's not), and then him being resentful for doing his part. Here is one of the worst things, he NEVER does anything for himself, funwise. I have pushed and pushed him too. And then he turns around and blames me at times, "why can't I ever do anything that I want?" ARGH... Once I told him that I was not here to make his playdates for him. This has been going on for years (yes, when S was infant/toddler it was harder for EITHER of us. I would have friends bring kids over or vice-versa ). This was also one of the things that he said on that recording - He was always having to do this or that..He had lost all his freedom. WTF, that's what happens for awhile when you have kids and then you go when you can, and he doesn't and then blames me/us.

Sorry, whew, that felt GOOD. Esp. that WTF part...Sigh,
Well, whiny kooky j is gonna go to the store and get more potsting soil for S to plant flower seeds. And H is coming over, we both need some SF (blush).

Will continue trying very HARD to do Plan A. Ark 2 upcarrots recommended two weeks of stellar Plan A and then Plan B on last thread. Still very confused.

Did not mean to put off the recording story- will try again later. Just got a little carried away (again).

gee---we are in the process of leaving the sub-division neighborhood and i cant wait. its only 5 acres but the views are mountains on 2/3 of it. waiting for the final approval from the town to build.......we wanted the horses....son(9) and i are into them...we go to the horse farm regularly and trade off work for riding time. he started comming with me since he was 4. he loves it. even when he fell out of the hay loft and got attacked by one of them nasty roosters you mentioned....he wanted chickens until he found out we needed a rooster too...lol. no more chickens. so he knows how to clean the stalls and feed them and water them. he knows how to walk them out after a ride...i do all the saddling and un-saddling....and we both help new commers learn how to ride. he is really great in the ring with scared nervous kids and moms..its funny and cute. leads em around and has no fear....

well anyway, so how much property do you have to care for?

Hi jls,

I am sorry that you've been feeling depressed these past few days. I hope things get better for you.

Have you ever considered calling the Harleys for MC (as SS suggested on your other thread?)? I think might be a good idea.

svb

He doesn't help much? Keep in mind, jls, that in Plan B, you'll be doing all this by yourself. Plenty of food for resentment -- so be prepared.

My beloved, too, encouraged us to take on more animals -- and now we are taking care of the menagerie without him. But our zoo isn't nearly the size of yours.

Well, take joy in it, and the kids. He won't. Sounds like he's got you going and coming -- either way he'll complain. Have fun without him, so you can come from a place of joy -- whatever you decide to do. Stop dragging him -- it's a drag for you. Sounds like he's getting his jollies elsewhere, anyway.

One thought I like from an MBer somewhere: You don't have to prove what you already know. Don't let him talk you out of what you know. He sounds like he's on a losing streak -- and it's just beginning.

jls: Just an innocent bystander here, but wanted to chime in with my $.02.

There is a tendency to set boundaries for what we will or will not accept in a very legalistic and naive way. We determine what we consider to be "really" cheating, and what's just "innocent" based on a lot of preconceived ideas about how marriages are supposed to work.

Any given action can be hidden, lied about, etc. It's nearly impossible to "prove" anything--ask OJ Simpson. So when you set your standards for marital satisfaction and boundaries based on actions which are automatically going to be done secretly and covered up, you set yourself up for your responses to be dependent, not on their attitude or your satisfaction with the relationship, but on what you can or cannot prove.

Do you need proof that he is not an honest person in general, and in particular in regards to his dealings with other women? Do you need proof that he has shown a lack of respect for the integrity of your marriage? Do you need proof that he is unwilling to make an adequate effort to ensure your marital satisfaction needs are met? I would guess you have ample "proof" of those things.

In my own marriage, I was one of those "if he ever really cheated, then I would definitely leave" people. I've had to learn to be honest with myself, I know now that being naive and legalistic was my way of not having to deal with his painfully obvious lack of commitment to fidelity and the marriage in general. He did things right in front of my face that I now recognize were cruelly disrespectful of me. There was never any question that his "friends," many of them women and single, were much higher on his list of priorities than I was. They got the "first choice" of his time and attention. I got "what he could spare." He more or less openly dated other women around me, but because he cloaked it in the "we're just friends" excuse, I felt like I had no grounds to complain. After all, I couldn't prove he had romantic feelings for them, or vice versa.

The truth is, I didn't need any more proof than the fact that he was taking other women to the movies and leaving me behind. I kept saying that if I ever found "proof" that he'd "really" cheated, then it would be "okay" for me to leave. The fact that he was openly giving himself and plenty of women ample opportunity to cheat meant that he wasn't really committed to making SURE he kept his vows.

I don't feel like I'm expressing myself well here. But the main point is, I was scared of losing him. I was scared of being alone and scared that he was treating me that way because I really wasn't worth cherishing. I was scared that the reason he kept the door so wide open and his foot permanently wedged in it was because it was so obvious that nearly anyone would be "better" than me.

So I set the bar as low as I could and still pretend that I had standards. I made the criteria for leaving him so unlikely it was nearly impossible, because it would have meant that I would have had to literally walked in on him with someone else, or he'd have had to voluntarily admitted having sex with someone else without me directly asking. That was never going to happen--and that was the point. I didn't want to lose him, but I also didn't want to admit I had no self-worth whatsoever.

I'm not saying that is what is happening with you. But I am saying that you should follow pepperband and am martin's advice, and really think about what your standards of behavior and boundaries are. Think about what "evidence" you want to see to show those standards were being met which would be practical. Trust what you see and hear. Trust yourself. Be honest with yourself.

Jseagull:

This very insightful post above was the most intelligent advice you have recieved to date. You are in a way, stopping yourself from "moving ahead" with your almost denial of who and what your WH is. I think this is the crux of your problem.

I hope that you can find the strength to do what is right for you and your children..........whatever that may be. Hopefully it means your WH.......statistically though, being that this is his 3rd marriage (history usually repeats itslef unfortunately) , you may need some higher forces helping out here. I will say a prayer for you.

Goodluck.

LM

Hey everyone,

many thanks for all replies.

Java, that was VERY insightful, you shouldn't just be a bystander. I have been thinking about this all weekend. You are right, but i still worry about my kids more than anything. If nothing else (and there is something, I love this man. Yes, I KNOW, love is a 4-letter word and does NOT make the world go 'round) Will continue to process all of this and my options. Plan B may be for me.

Now here is part of the rest of the story! I know you all have been just dying to read this. (drip drip - sarcasm}

I put the digital tape recorder in my H’s car on a Wed and Thurs in June ‘03. I remember that it was Wed and Thurs, because on the 1st one he complains about putting the trash out. I actually have a fairly good memory of that day, he got up late (I got up later, thekids were out of school) and was grouchy. I offered to help him when I got up, he just grumped and said that he had promised to do it and he would DO it - shock the pool and turn off lights by pool (lights which he had put up, for fun). I leaned out the back door and thought he was leaving, he was walking back in the yard towards the pool. I also told him that he should have woken me up, I could easily have fed horses also, or done it later. He said no big deal, but I could tel that he was extremely grumpy.

On the 1st recording, much of it is hard to hear. I was paranoid and threw it under the backseat, wrapped in a towel. Not the best scenario for good audio. I really thought that he was talking to himself until I heard the recording the next day, then I took them both to be cleaned up and put on CD. That place did a horrible job, but got ‘em on CD, so I downloaded Echofilter and played with it for awhile. Then I sent it away last year to another guy, who cleaned up a small part of it (it was expensive and H is resentful of the money spent and the distrust). The 2nd day, I put the recorder pu front and got better audio, yet not perfect (his window was down part of the time). I can hear the radio very clearly, then he turns it down and starts to have a conversation and then rolls up the window as he starts to talk. Can’t hear the 1st two sentences very well.

2nd one first: “__________(sounds like a name, could be cathy or kevin??), She’s getting rather suspicious. _____ ______ ______, heavy responsibility being involved with this horsegirl.” [Pause] then(sounds like “you’d think so”) “Yeah, but that’s not the case. As a matter of fact, it’s opposite. I come home and she’s out hte door. She’s gone, she’s out to the barn, she’s gotta go do her horsestuff.” [pause] “My job is cook dinner, do the dishes,do the laundry and give Son(says his name) a bath while she’s out doing her horsething.” “I realize that cleaning stalls is not a fun job, but still, you’ve got to see it from my perspective.” [Pause] then (it sounds like “I didn’t choose..” ) to do laundry, dishes, cook dinner.” [pause and then loud, as he was getting out of car] “She chose to have horses!” All of this was in a very conversational tone.

Now, some of this is true. H did a lot of laundry back then (I would rather do 5 stalls then laundry but I still did more than he realized). Not since then though, I so MOST of it, by a long shot. And I was only out at the barn in the eves for ~30 min at that time. Now my D14 gets horses in 95% of the time. Also he Never cooked ALL the dinners, washed dishes all the time, or gave DS a bath all the time, What a Hoot! I knew that it was hectic right then and he had come home a few times WHILE I was cooking or barbequing (sp?) And He offered to help while I went and got horses in! And I was NOT cooking dinner enuf (still don’t), but had even apologized within 1-2 weeks before this recording. His reply was that he knew that about me when we got M and he was GLAD and PROUD that I was more than just a housewife and had other interests. WTF?! Then to hear that!!

And what I did not put in parenthesis, I am SURE of the words, just listened to it last nite and wrote some of it down.

Any thoughts??

Will post other rec.(parts that I can hear) soon, maybe tonite and maybe Plan B letter on new post!

Thanks all,
jls

^^ (Bump and also an upcarroty call to ark^^)

lets look at this from another perspective....lets take the possibility of an affair out of the mix(i know----ive been called crazy before, but follow me on this....)

ARE YOU HAPPY WITH YOUR MARRIAGE AND LEVEL OF RESPECT FROM YOUR HUSBAND?

at a certain point i had to sit down and say to myself ---affair or not, nc or not, recovery or not.....i am not happy and our marriage sucks. either we get help or we move on.....i then went to plan b.

are you happy?
is he?

what are you gonna do?

First, how can I NOT adore you with a Bach-ish screen name like yours? And once an idjit, always an idjit imo. Heck, I don't come over near as much as I used to...but they don't hold that against me.




Between you, me, and the fencepost (and the rest of MB) you cannot be made to eat that pile of bullshyt no matter how much he tells you it's chocolate and presents it on that silver platter. No wonder you doubt yourself...anyone would feel crazy after being force fed that.

So what are you going to do about it? Have you tried the reverse babble on him? If you want to stay sane, it's a Godsend. My favorite when the rewritten history comes up is:

I know you belive that, hon. But what you've talked yourself into believing and the facts are two different things.

Smile sweetly and walk away. He wants to argue, he can argue with himself......he, he. Don't let him get away with it, but don't argue about it.

As for your strength...dear, only YOU know what you can handle. Both plans are about regaining your sense of self and protecting yourself from the fallout of his horrible decisions. Until you put either plan into full action, neither will work.

Beleive me, your strenght and sense of YOU will grow stronger with each positive step you take in controlling YOUR life!

- Kimmy

jlseagull I was reading your post and wanted to talk to you. I have horses to and goats and ducks and cats and chickens. I feel sometimes the reason my husband doesn't tell me the truth about his affair is that i would leave, who would take care of the animals. He drives truck and works different hours. I am the only one to do it. I feel sometimes that i'm just here for the chores, thats all i needed for. Do you feel the same way?


I am not the person who wanted these animals. It was his dream to have a small farm some day so we moved 11 years ago and he got his dream. I do love the animals and all but a lot of cleaning .

All i can say is it sure is hard road. chores, cleaning,cooking ,paying bills,taking are of grandkids after school. I wish you all the best.
I was thinking maybe your farm is to much for your husband to handle and he doesn't really no how to talk to you about it. you sound like you love the life. maybe you need to get away for a day with him and stay over night some where just to stop the everyday work and chores. I been trying to do this so far can't find the time or someone to take care of animals, but still trying. think of you to day and hope for some other ideas. i sure would like to help you always pansy

Hi Dealan,

I know that he is not happy, but he always just says that he would be happy if I were happy. I AM happy with everything else besides the level of intimacy and trust in my M. Sounds like reverse babble on me.

I have tried RB but I am not good at it. I keep trying tho.

I like your reference to bul!$hit. I know $h!t, I clean it up everyday, and it is not even CLOSE to being chocolate!!

Thanks D, I am getting alot stronger, that is why I think that I should do Plan B. H hasn't been over since the weekend and he is calling all the time and kinda' freaking out.

Do you think that Plan B is applicable here? Anyone? And how, since no exposure or even admittance of A.

Pansy, Have to take S7 to school, will write more later!

jls

Pansy,

I still don't have much time, have to clean stalls, go get my hair done, then pick up S and take D14 (hook up and pull trailer with her horse too) to riding lesson this afternoon.

Although I wanted the farm, he said that he was all for it. And 1 horse is his (the one that is the worst to clean up after, it's a draft), and it is his old cat (who hardly ever goes outside, throws up all the time and I clean up)and 1 dog is his (the pup that gets in trash) altho I kinda got it for him, he picked the dog out. And he brought home the rooster and hen (Yuck!) which i hate but feed and water 99% of the time.

He also wanted our S, he had no kids. Then HE felt trapped, WTF?! He often doesn't do his share with the kids and when he does, he complains!!

I do love the life. I have asked him soo many times if it bothered him and he denied it. And told him that I understood if it did, it's bound to bother us all at times. Even in MC years ago, he denied the very things that he complained about on the rec. And made me look oversensitive for saying that I thought that he was resentful, then sidetracked with references to my PAST depression (this was in MC in '02- I think that it was 02).

Sorry, I am just very resentful myself these days. Tired of trying so hard, by myself. On the M that is. And I know that Plan B will be hard, but we are separated right now, anyway. He does help a little still on the weekends when he comes over. But it makes my rollercoaster go high and LOW!

More later, Thanks,
jls

By the way, all, I do more for me these days. I get my hair cut and colored. My stylist even commented tha I was there so often (~4x) last year. I used to go 1-2x a year and jsut get a cut. I also go to a "gym" in the am alot. That is socially fun also, it is like a curves and the ladies are funny. I really do need to start riding again tho. Will work on that!

Thanks for all the input everyone,
jls

Hallooo!! *jumping up and down, waving frantically!!!*

Why is he not living at home? Do you have proof of an A? If there is no A then why are we talking about PLAN B?

I know I coming in here late so please forgive me.

I'll have some more comments, but can't get them typed for a day or two.

Mimi has a good question about plan B.

Plan B is used to let the OP try and fill all the needs in an A, and also to protect the love you have left until the A is over.

In your case, the A has never been admitted, but it is over.
I would guess you want plan B so that he will have to look at what he wants. In other words, to force a decision.

It will probably do that - make him choose. If you are at the end of your rope, you may want it to protect you from his thoughtlessness, and lack of care. I worry that he has no idea of what is going on, and may end things himself at that point out of frustration.

Must go, will be back later.

SS

Mimi and SS,

I have started different threads on whether I should/could do Plan B without confirmation of an A. The general consensus is yes. I am sure that there was something going on. What, I don't know.

Did you read the paragraph about the recording? Does it make sense to you, that is if he was talking to himself? Maybe I am crazy. There is another rec. that I haven't posted yet. It is not that long and not as audible. But there are parts that i can hear, and it has been cleaned up some. It is also the one that I can hear a woman's voice on (faintly, but there).

Maybe I will post that next. I have posted most of this info before, but it was sporadic and some of it a long time ago.

Now I feel more confused. I am getting conflicting info and while i want to hear more than 1 option, it is still making me doubt myself more.

Thanks Mimi and SS, I will think about it all some more. Would you read, carefully, the post on this thread with the recording and let me know what you really think? Please, and thank you again.

jls

Oh, he is not living at home, Mimi, because I caught him lying to me a few weeks ago about his interactions with coworkers, esp. female. He was flirting and yipping it up at work and then telling me what a bad day it was and that he never talked to anyone and how depressed he was. And he was happy at work and come home and be depressed and cranky with me and kids, consistently for awhile.

I am trying to add links to my story. How do I do this?

I can copy the url into this post. Will that work? This is the one about when H moved out (I made him leave).

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2695078

Woohoo, it worked!

ok so now...Next recording (really the first)...

He was getting into the car as he was talking... it was very audible at first and then off and on, depending on how fast he was going and stuff. ___ mean I am not 100% sure (can't hear or make it out) about that particular word or phrase.
"This morning, I got up, made a pot of coffee, fed the horses, took the garbage out, took a shower, folded a load of laundry, got ready for work, shocked the pool, unplugged the lights. [pause] "Well, I pay for these ___ ______...." then it sounds like "don't even want to be there" or "the only one who wants to be in there" (the pool?)..."is my son". ___ _____ .... "Make a freindship out of your ___ and the horsegirl". [pause]" ___be ___friend, but I'm not gonna love ___ forever, ya' know?!". Here a woman's voice says "Riiight." [Long pause and garble] Then him again, "Maybe I should talk to her. Tell her that I don't love her anymore and that we're total opposites." [then again a womans voice] "yeah, __ talk to her." (i can hear that last blank,is name that he goes by at work,he goes by middle name at home and with old friends and family). Later he says that he has no freedom anymore.... and that is most of it.

So I would really like to know if you very unbiased people think that I am a real nut?! Take notice of all the words, if they are there, I am sure of them. Think of it as a mystery to be solved. Notice specifics, I won't point them out yet! But will ask again later and respond to any who look at the clues!!!

jls

It's important to do an effective PLAN A prior to PLAN B or else PLAN B is worthless ESPECIALLY if YOU ASKED HIM to move out. I don't understand your reason for that if you did. BECAUSE YOU CAUGHT HIM IN A LIE? That does not seem like a sufficient reason not to be living with your H particularly if you have children together.

I think he was definitely not talking to himself! TRUST YOUR GUT!

So is it reasonable to ask him to move back home so that you can do PLAN A and EXPOSE the A.

Read up on the MB CONCEPTS of PLAN A AND PLAN B to gather further understanding. You can find this info. in the book Surviving an Affair. Also you can find the info. on this website. Just don't depend on us. Go to the sources.

Once time during my H's A - before D-day, an employee told me he had just finished talking to my H on his cell phone only it didn't hang up all the way. He heard my H calling someone honey and sweetie, and parts of a one sided conversation. It didn't make sense how he could hear that since his cell phone call was still connected. My H denied to me that he was talking to someone. Long after, it finally came out that my H had a secret cell phone he kept hidden in his truck just to talk to his A partner.

I wouldn't believe he was talking to himself in those recordings. They all deny or try to make you sound crazy. You aren't crazy. Trust your gut. It is frustrating not to have real proof positive. I allowed myself to get sicker and sicker before I had finally had it and stopped the denial that he was having an A.

Plan B or separation and firm bounderies from you may be necessary to end the fantasy/cake eating that WS's tend to love to prolong.

Did anyone here realize that my H used "I" and "you" in his conversations to "HIMSELF". And he said "my son" in one. This is evidence to me, along with the female voice answering him. He will still not admit. I hired a PI, with what little money I had and the PI sucked. My H goes to work everyday at a job where he conceivably still has contact with this woman that uses his work name. He will not quit his job unless I force him too with threat of D while separated and that is still a maybe. I tried to talk to him about looking for another job before and he said that he would but put no real effort towards it. That was over a year ago.

Mimi,

What about my boundaries? He has known that lying is a "deal-breaker", esp. about interaction with female coworkers!!! I caught him dead to rights and he still continued to lie as we talked. He would change it as he went, I would call him on it, and he would change it again. This went on for hoursthis time, not including other lies that he has told in hte past.

SS, he DOES know what is going on.

Have to go put S7 to bed. Will be back later.

jls

Thanks Trix,

I really have to go with this one. I did look for a cell...Nothing. It might be over, this was almost two years ago. It might not have been much. But it was something to lie about, and continue to deny!!

Sorry, it still really hurts.
jls

BUT:

Lying is not a reason to ask for MARITAL SEPARATION.

PLAN A then PLAN B is what is recommended by the MB SYSTEM.

I know that Mimi. I respect you very much, I read your posts often. It seems as if you became stronger and wiser thru your H's A and dealing with it. I have been here for a long time, just didn't used to post too much.

I have done Plan A for too long, since, at least Oct 03, off and on. I have made some real permanent changes, and am willing to make more. I have also grown very resentful, for numerous reasons. I can no longer be around H for long, without LBing. I hurt too much and end up lashing out. Tonite, for example; He came by to see S7, H hasn't been here since Sun. S7 didn't want to go to him, so he came here. I mowed, then left to run some errands. Otherwise S sticks with me, and he needed some dad time. H kept calling me and asking where I was and when would I be back. I left at 7:10 or so and was back at 8:40. We talked a little and ended up in an argument (mostly my fault). H wants to came home, i will not let him at this point. I have been doing a pretty darn good Plan A last effort before Plan B, as suggested here. I knew that I could not deal with H tonite without LBing, that is another reason that I was trying to be busy!

It gets very hard, as I am sure that you know, to deal with someone that you KNOW is lying to you, esp. in a M. He will not stop! What else am I to do? I have tried to make him feel safe, I think that he manipulates me with his lies. On another thread, I was explaining how we had an argument awhile back. He got a stomachache and was depressed. I found out that the next day, tho he was very "down" and "sick" here at home, that he went to work and was a barrel of laughs. When I asked him how work was that eve, he told me that he was at his desk all day and didn't speak to anyone. He told me that he hated work and was depressed there also (partly because of our argument the nite before). He plays the martyr very well, this has been a prob with me throughout our M. He is flirty at work adn then claims that he speaks to nobody. He speaks down to me, as in "We do not joke around at work, I do not work in a BAR", (I do, part-time). I used to work in research, people still joked around. I cannot ask him about work at all, he gets defensive or clams up. Even before all this, he never told me anything.

I don't know WHAT to do!! I have been very confused and lost for 2 years now. I have posted about this a few times and more recently.

I have felt as if I have been very close to having a nervous breakdown a few times. I want ME back and this is the only way I seem to be able to do this.

Help me out here Mimi. I do welcome your input. I am trying to stick with this plan, it is very hard and I don't know how to do this all the time.

Thanks,
jls

Been doing a pretty darn good Plan A. H spent last Thurs. all day here, that nite and weekend up 'til Sun nite. He had spent lots of the past weekend here also, but not Mon, Tues or Wed. I told him that I needed him to realize things were still not OK.

He is very much like that. If I don't reiterate (or "nag", as some would say here), then he will go on and act as if all is well. Always. Can we say conflict avoider?! But nothing ever changes (at least, not for the better or not for long at all).

Anyhoo, H was very depressed last week, when he was not around us for 3 days. I am really worried about what would happen if I go to Plan B.

He wants me to see his IC also. I have every intention of doing so, I guess I have been stalling tho. H says that one of the things that she wants to ask me is what it would take for me to trust him. I DON"T KNOW anymore. 2 years ago, I answered this, to him and MC and IC. But he continued to lie...and wouldn't even look for another job(that one i kinda' get), and hasn't spent anymore time with me. And is still being manipulative, a martyr( he has the poor poor thing down very well), and yet hiding his resentments- altho not as well, I am "on" to him-.

So now what?!! How do I trust? H says well now he won't lie to me. Hmm,he said that before. No he means it..uh-huh, heard it. No reallly, even if it hurts...heard it too. Then lies.


jls

If you go to plan B there isn't a need to worry about the WS. That's the beauty of it. Worrying about the WS is a tactic the WS use to keep the BS in their pocket. Once you realize you have been used and abused, then you will get movitated enough to g/t plan B. Remember plan is about you and for you.

If the IC has to ask what you w/d to trust the WS again, I'd change ICs. There is no trust t/b given to a WS. Ask your IC where she got her license.

Can you call Steve to get a good plan together? I probably asked about counseling with Steve before, just hate to see you bantered around by an incompetant IC/MC or WS.


L.

jl----im married to what i call an everyday liar too. or he was anyway. LOL i got asked the same thing by a counselor...told him i would need a surgeon...the surgeon would have to implant a lie detector that shocked hubby's scrotum when he lied---it would have to be permanent and he would have to volunteer for this surgery on his own!!!

then i called steve.....best money ever spent. there are still times i wonder about the honesty of everyday life...but he knows if i even get a whiff of a whopper....he is outta here!

Thanks Orchid, will add that to my "thought process". H can be VERY manipulative. But I also know him and am very much worried about him in a Plan B state of mind!

Nikko, That is a GREAT idea. I wonder if they could do that?!LOL.
How DO you get through the everyday? How do you get past the sorrying about the lies? Yes, I know, focus on me. But if that is part of my R, then it is part of my life and therein, part of me! IS it better, now, nikko? The only time it gets better for me, is when I don't care. And that is not good for my M.

Oh, well, enuf of that and back to work. Thanks for your responses.

Now, for Plan B. Thinking about waiting 'til kids are out of school for summer. It will make it easier when I have to work during the week. H has been staying here on the weeknites that I work and then taking S7 to school. Only 2 more weeks of that. I just don't want to drag this out. I am not patient. I am ok with the separation right now, but I think that is because H calls every 5 minutes. This will be SOO hard.

jls

edited 'cause i don't know who is who...

I like Nikko's idea for surgery. Wish I had known about it earlier.

Seagull, one thought is: what couldn't you do, that you wanted to, when WH was around? Do it now. Go to samba classes, watch the sunrise with the Wiccan people, take up scuba diving. Have a blast. This is YOUR time.

Not thinking about him will be GREAT for your marriage.

Hi A.M.,

I like all those ideas! I am weird enuf to try them. That is what I like about the separation, no pressure and what I want (with kids, of course).

I guess taht I am just a chickensh!+. I want to remove myself from the drama, just the nice stuff is still good. And I am truly worried about him.

What if I am wrong? What if he was talking to hisself, and I am NUTS?? Not as farfetched as I would like to think. HELP...glug.. drowning... in worries..glug!


jls

Well, I thought you decided that whatever he was doing on the tape, that there were enough borderline incidents, friendships, etc., that you were ready to throw in the towel. That you were tired of guessing, and being lied to, and having this anxiety be the focus of your relationship.

Yes, A.M. You are right!! That is what I decidED. I am just so unsure of everythign right now. Hate this wishy-washiness.

I am mulling everything over, going to his counselor 2moro and will see him today or 2moro nite when I work and he watches S7. Not sure how I would work that with Plan B, unless H doesn't take S7 to school in mornings. And after working 'til ~330 am (sometimes not in bed 'til 4-430) it HURTS to get up that early, tho I have.

Thanks A.M., it sounds so simple when you put it that way. Just was making sure that i listened to ALL the advice and thought deeply on everything, before I did anything "crazy".
I have been known to act too rashly sometimes.

jls

Mimi and others made me double-think (3x+4..).

I just want to make as sure as possible that i would not be making a serious mistake. I sometimes DO think that I am crazy. I have doubts about over-reacting...

I know that most here can give me some unbiased perspectives! Hit away. I would like all different opinions, ANY comments. Please, feel free.

Thanks,
jls

The most important thing is to be firm and committed. Don't waffle or your words mean nothing -- just as his words mean nothing.

You should be prepared for a Plan B. You'll be doing a lot of things alone that you know share. For many, it can be hard at the beginning.

Maybe you should call the Harleys on this one. You seem to have enough doubts that it might be worthwhile.

Hi jls,
Lets say that your H had an affair, and that he won't tell the truth.

That for me, would be enough to end a marriage. If the spouse showed no remorse, and continued in the lies, I think I would end it - as you are considering doing.

Plan B could be used to prepare for D, but still give H a chance to come clean while preparing.

I get all that - but..........

I keep thinking about the advice from Pep, and Ark, and others. If he was ready to tell the truth, and he did in fact tell you all about it, what would you do with the information?

It looks like you have been REACTING to what he does and says, instead of using the info to make your plan work. Anger is a protection FOR YOU. It warns you that someone is inflicting, or may inflict harm on you. Anger can be used as a tool. Once you have the warning, you can figure out how to best use the knowledge that other person gives you (which knowledge makes you angry) to best serve your purposes. You can be angry, but not express anger.

I suggested some recources for reading - but I really don't know if you would be helped by them. I WAS NOT saying things are your fault - it is natural go get angry, and seek shelter when some one has harmed us. I would put adultry at the top of the list for harm in a marriage.

What I am suggesting is that no matter what the cause is, your marriage is in trouble, and likely to come apart if not fixed. If anyone is to fix it, it will be you.

If that is true, you have to look at WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Often the BS seeks to get the WS to change - after all, they are the one that strayed. The bottom line is that you can't make him change.

You can change you, and see if he reacts in positive ways to your changes.

You have choice though, you can dump him, or you can plan B, and hope he gets it. I don't know if he can AT THIS POINT.

What I am saying is this:
If you can learn about how he thinks, and understand him better. If you can use the anger to tailor your plan to HELP, not REACT in anger. If you can make your home a place where he craves to be, that may do more for getting him to tell the truth than plan B AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

It may not be your turn to mow the grass, but probably no one will mow it if you don't. I don't think he can even start the mower at this point in time. You can leave it, or you can mow it yourself.
I keep hoping you have enough gas in the mower to finish once you start.

Whatever changes you make, whatever you learn, whatever improvements you master, are yours to keep even if he proves to be the wrong person for you. He will show that by how he responds to your plan.

I am not saying there should be no consenquences for his lies. Trust comes because a peson is trustworthy. It doesn't come just because they say they are, or want to be.

You don't have to trust him until he comes clean, and you can tell his IC that.

Please don't react to his lies. Only do things that will help you reach your goal of a happy marriage.

You are valueable too, I hope you know that.

SS

A.M. (and others that have mentioned the option of calling the Harleys),

It sounds like a great idea. Looked at the counseling page and fees page and I cannot reasonably afford that right now. Sure I could put it on the credit card,but the balance is really too high right now. I think that it would probably be worth it, but I know that H would NOT agree. And he would be right about not affording it.

So many of you have suggested this, I will think about it some more. I would like help,been to bunch of counselors around here, not many good ones.

Thanks A.M., and I realize that I need to be sure. I have waffled long enuf, for sure!

I had to think about what Mimi said, but this separation has been a much needed line for my boundaries. Lying is not acceptable in my M.

jls

So use the 800 phone-in line and go "on the air." I have. You get weird commercial breaks and unwanted publicity, but...

Jls-

Hi chicky, I will admit right here an now I only skimmed this post, my attention span leaves something to be desired as of late.

I was a little surprised that your confidence had been shaken so badly, you always seemed so sure of yourself when you posted to me.

Please KNOW that you are a very likable person, and I was drawn to your post merely because you're you, I actually didn't even read the title, just saw it was your thread, and decided to check it out.

I understand your feelings, I would chomp at the bit waiting for people to post to me, I felt desperate for the information that they could give me. It seemed like every decision I made could be critical mass for my marriage...been there, done that.

As I'm sure you know, I sucked at Plan B, I couldn't keep it up for any length of time. I don't know what degree of preparation would have sufficiently prepared me for it.....so I did a 1/2 assed Plan B, and then jumped right into moving back in with my H. In retrospect, I believe I made a major mistake moving out, I think if I would have stuck around I would be in a better position in my marriage than I am currently, I think I could have avoided a lot of my problems if I had only known about MB in time.

But in any event, my FWH and I are back together. It's not quite the blissful reunion I would have hoped it would be, but I try really hard not to take anything for granted anymore....I believe that was part of my problem before. I know that I am only back with my husband because of my hard work on myself, and the grace of God, it's hard as heck, but it's still a gift that I thank God for everynight...the chance to save my marriage.

I don't know if any of this helps...it may not, I tend to ramble on aimlessly...but I really wanted to reply to you, to let you know that I support you and that I don't find you remotely whiny....these are some scary things that you're going through, and asking for help is not whining, how else are you going to receive the pearls of wisdom this site has to offer, I have, and always will, type exactly how I'm feeling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Caren

HI Jl,

Can I ask, what did he say when you played the recording to him?


I get all that, too. That would be enough for me.


Well, THEN she could decide on recovery or D. Is he hugely remorseful when telling the truth? That would mean something; might consider recovery. Is he resentful and blaming? Then I would proceed quickly to the D! Stringing me out all these years, wasting my life like that... he'd be lucky if all I did was D his sorry A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

If he asks, how about a lie detector service? They are in the yellow pages, just a few hundred $, I understand. I mean, if he's asking...

I still dont understand how he denies his voice on the cd.

Please take care of yourself - Dru

Well, THEN she could decide on recovery or D. Is he hugely remorseful when telling the truth? That would mean something; might consider recovery. Is he resentful and blaming? Then I would proceed quickly to the D! Stringing me out all these years, wasting my life like that... he'd be lucky if all I did was D his sorry A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Oh shoot -
1. You made me laugh big time. Yes, he would be lucky if that was all you did.

2. When I asked what she would do with the info - I didn't explain very well what I meant.
Many BS's explode when they finally get the truth. Then they realize they WANT to save the marriage, but it's in too many peices. I want jls to be prepared for what ever happens. She needs to think things over, and have an idea of what she will say, and do. I mean, if she is going to kill him, she needs to do it on the sly, not right there in front of the IC.

Ok, just kidding, but hope you get my drift. You (jls) need to think about possible reactions and how they would help your goals. Then do whatever will help the most, not what you FEEL like doing right then.


Thanks Dru !

SS

OK, Gonna' divide this into a few posts..Boyo, go to work and find out that I got maybe the most responses ever here... Thanks everyone, guess it was a slow nite on MB. LOL. Lucky for me!

First, SS, guess we cross-posted, I type slow, or at least have to fix all my typos and it takes me awhile.



You are right, so to speak. I WAS reacting. NOW I am not. This separation (regardless of what Mimi and others think- no offense at all, you guys-) has been VERY good for ME.

I waited a long time, but it was the right timing for me. I FEEL (right now) very in control, for the first time in a long time.

I am not really angry right now. I was VERY angry and HURT. I, myself, think that the two go hand and hand, and that is okay as long as it is acknowledged and shared. Remember, this happened almost 2 years ago. Now, I have just found out AGAIN, that he is lying to me, AGAIN- Many times in the last few years (and before). It is simply the right time (for me) to re-establish MY boundaries. I have posted and questioned, questioned and posted, about this before. HOW does one reinforce these boundaries? Without putting one's M in jeopardy? Well, I guess one doesn't. My M IS in jeopardy. This is something that I have been in a dilemma about for a LONG time. Even BEFORE all this came to light. A long time ago,I almost had an affair. I told my H this right away. He said that it would hurt him, that was all. This was after I had told him that I was "unfulfilled" with our relationship and outlined MY probs many times. What else was I to do? I DID NOT have an A. I have been COMPLETELY honest with him about everything. I AM SCARED, and I have been for a long times. About my M; For me, For us- For my kids.

Probably, one of the deciding factors for me was this: AFTER we separated, that day, I was explaining to D14 a little about it. She said, "Mom, I would have kicked him out after he lied about the money and the house". (She had heard us argue enuf, she knew that part of my distrust stemmed from WAY back to when we bought this house, in June '99. His parents offered to "give" us some of the money for a down payment. We had most of it, H is the practical one and worried,and he told his parents this. They were to "give" us some money, but to "avoid" taxes for them and us, wanted "us" to sign something saying that we would "pay" them back- but not really. I was leary, and checked with a lawyer and then the IRS. We met with their lawyer also. Turns out that they were really jsut getting "insurance", so that I could not make off with their money and/or the house, in case we divorced. This took a few weeks to come to light. I only found this out after refusing to sign the papers and H went to talk to them. H came home and admitted that he had known that it was a ploy all along. His Dad apologized, his Mom, well she is different and pretended that it never happened. It was a very bad place for us for awhile. I let him take kids and go to family stuff for a year or so, but did not go myself. Just told him to make excuses for me..) Phew, that was not good, parentheticly (word?). Did any of that make sense? Anyhow, Ds comments made me realize that she had lost respect for me about that. D14 is ONE person that I want the respect of. Granted, she is a kid,and I told her that she did not understand alot of the "adult" stuff and when she had 2 kids and was M, she might "Get it" more. BUT, she is RIGHT, in a big way. I did not demand respect for myself back then. No, I didn't sign anything, but I "allowed" all of them to lie to me, and never really confronted that problem. AND, since 2003, have been doing that AGAIN and again.

So, yes, after all of "this" happened, I have exploded many times. THIS possible betrayal (?infidelity)?, OMIGOD, I lost it alot. My desperateness and insecurities came out, BIGTIME! Here and there, since it all happened. But NOW, and many times, I have told H, tell me the truth and we CAN work though it. He maintains, even now, that he was talking to himself. I have had many doubts, both ways. But this is the FIRST time, in a long time, that I have really stood up for myself!! So, WHY would he take me seriously, either?!

Ok, next. Sorry SS. Ramblings in the middle of the night..or morning. I should stay awake and feed horses anyway, so H doesn't feel like he needs to feed them when he comes to take S7 to school. THAT is another story. H was VERY depressed today 'cause kids didn't really want him here tonite (last nite?) when I worked. D14 watched S, H came by for awhile. S7 actually took H aside and told him he needed to leave at a certain time!! H was devastated. I feel VERY bad for him, but also can't help but feel a slight bit vindicated. H has NOT interacted with family much at all in past few years...I have told you all that S7 didn't realize H was gone for 2 days. And then it was only after he heard me on phone with H!!! I have done nothing to make S7 mad at Dad. He is not really mad, just feels "weird" (S7s word). I took the blame at first tonite, then restated that it was "both" of our fault that Dad was staying at Grandparents and it was "grownup" stuff. --I am not at fault that H lied to me and I have warned him too many times that this would happen. S7, though, has NO idea about all of this, just that Dad is not staying here.--

Ok, did I say next?!! Pause and on to next Q and A....,

Thanks so much SS, making me think,I NEED that.

jls

A.M.,

I surely will try to do that. Have NO probs with "humility" at this point. I looked up alot on this site today that I have never looked at before. I have thought about the radio show before, but always forget when it is on. It is definitely a priority, esp. NOW.

Thanks again A.M., you have been very good (and patient) with me. Feel like a little kid when isay that, but that is how I feel.

jls

Caren,
it means alot to me that you even checked in. That goes for everyone who responds to me!!

I always look at your threads. You seem so real to me. I feel like I know you, and that we are alot alike in many ways. Don't take this the wrong way, but one of the reasons that I want to do "right" by the plans, esp Plan B, is because of you. I know that you screwed it up. It's almost like it was me doing it and I learned from it. I really could have been you!! Freaking out and all!! That is soo me, and(sorry) so NOT what I want to do now. Been there, done that, threw away the t-shirt already!!

O yeah, it is so easy to be SURE, when it is not really me. I KNOW what you were supposed to be doing. It was SO CLEAR. LOL. WTF?! But, Moi, different story!!!

I have read that your recovery is not going as well as youwould have liked. I have had no "words of wisdom". I would like to tell you to tell your H to jump off a cliff sometimes, but I don't think that is part of the "MB recovery guidelines". So, I just read and think and try to learn!! From you...hee heh. How do ya' like that, Caren? You are helping me to learn. Didya' have any idea?

Thanks SOO much for hte support. I CAN be whiny, but it really doesn't last long and i try to keep it contained here. Lucky you guys!

Hey, Caren, keep on "fighting the good fight". I, for one, think that you are doing a great job. But What the Heck do I know???

jls

Hey Drucilla,

Lucky you, i am running out of steam.



THAT is what I am PRETTY DARN SURE of. BUT, is "pretty darn sure" good enuf???

What did he say when I played the recording? Well, the first time, it was very bad audio, BUT he knew that he was caught doing something wrong. Hindsight (20/20) I should NEVER have confronted with what I had at the time. I really thought that he was talking to a guy, or guys. Then I listened again (And again... )got it cleaned up and heard more throughout "months". Many times, he has said that he "doesn't remember" saying those things. That he probably did, but didn't mean them! I just caught him on a bad coupla' days..HARdeHAr. I don't know, but even talking to self, Isn't saying "Maybe I should talk to her. Tell her I don't love her anymore and that we're total opposite". a little PAST venting. I am a venter, I talk to myself and NEVER would consider NOT LOVING my H and TALKING to him about it!! Not to mention the calling himself "you" and the rest of the nonsensical Cr*@p in all that.

BUT, He is so CONVINCING. WHAT IF???? I could be nuts. Not so out of the realm of possibility (I said that before,see, I am crazy).

He IS remorseful, part of the time. RIGHT NOW, he misses us alot and is very remorseful. Otherwise, if I tell him I hurt, He jsut acts as if I am overreacting (that's his standard response and I HAVE been known to do so).

Actually thought about lie detector very seriously for awhile. But also researched that(because of a court issue) and know it is not 100% reliable. So there I would be again, either way. And $$ down, just like my sucky PI. PO'PO' me..Oh yeah, life sucks and then,....well ya' know. But really Dru, don't listen to those other MBers, I am NOT a whiner ~jls says in high eeyore-like, pathetic voice~

I really think that H thinks that whatever he tells me would be end of our M. NOTSO, I say. But after all this time, if I were to find out "truth", well, let's just say it WOULD be ugly. Just not the end, 'cause then I would feel like we were getting somewhere... I don't know, too much for this early, or late...

Maybe I will make more sense tomorrow - I doubt it.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Goodnite(morning)all,
jls

And Drucilla,

"he'd be lucky if all I did was D his sorry A"

That cracked me up, too. I have to watch that,I have also been known to get a little self-righteous. Don't worry, SS, I would be very careful and try not to do it in front of anyone. And I have a mental health defense ready too!

jls

"I FEEL (right now) very in control, for the first time in a long time."

You're going to feel a lot of other things before this is over. Be prepared. You can't go on feelings. You have to go on principles, standards, boundaries, long-term aims -- lots of things. But not feelings. They'll go up and down.

A.M.,

Are u really my conscience... It is the boundaries and long-term aims, YES!!! That IS it!! Principles,standards, all of that. Light bulb!!! These are the things that I have been trying to tell him. And I know that I am NOT supposed to be his teacher. I just commented on that the other day, about his lying. I have a D14 that I have to teach (not to mention S7). about this truth and 1/2truth stuff. And even if you don't get caught, it is still bad.

Got interrupted, what else is new. be back

jls

jls,

You have been active tonight, so I cruised over here to look at your thread. I haven't read the whole thing but I have browsed all the pages.

I can also be blunt, my apologies.

Please answer me a question:

Why do you intrinsically feel that you don't have value as a person?

And if you feel that you do, then tell me why you have value? (Basically, I'm asking you to prove it.)

NCWalker

Hi nc,

Had to get away for a few and gave S7 a little riding lesson..Came back and
oooooh, tearing.choke. uhhh. well,do you say that 'cause my typing skills are bad and i don't often capitalize my i's?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Really nc, I am about to cry. IS THAT what comes through in my posts? I feel like I'm in counseling. Y'know, I was just thinking about something today that I should post here as relevant to my sitch, but it may apply to your q as well.

Every guy I have ever cared for, has betrayed me. My dad was never emotionally there for us - how Strange that we pick our mates so close to one of our parents! My mom amd I have never really been close, I have never felt understood by her. She and I had it out the first time this whole A thing with my H happened. He went to her house and she didn't call me all weekend, then called to tell me that I was wrong and whatever HAD happened was all my fault anyway. Cause I am so mean and she knows how I am. Poor po' me again. Well, I have dealt with alot of this in counseling years ago. When my dad died a few years ago, some of THAT came back to roost. He left no will and NOTHING (not a damn pic) for any of his 5 kids.

On the opp side of the scale, I AM pretty great. I just have to remind myself of that alot. I am a hard worker. I am no dummy. I am really not a mean person, soemtimes way too nice and can't say no. A little too straight-forward, but I mostly view that as good. I talk too much and too fast (much better at that than typing), but again that is just a good joke between me and friends- not all bad either. I have a GOOD heart, and I love animals (maybe because they are NOT people). I like people sometimes, esp. kids. I am a GREAT mom. I am a responsible human being. Whatever I do, I try very hard to do right and well.

But (is that "but" gonna' discount all above?) as of late, I am defined by everyone and everything else, esp. my children.

I can't do any more of this right now. Must get S7 to sleep and I have to think about this some more. Emotionally, that stung (I know you didn't mean for it too) and hit a little close to home, I think.

Thanks nc. Sorry, My mood is all over the last few days. I DO try to stay "up" tho!!

jls

jls,

My apologies for not responding sooner. I knew that might sting a little and I was watching for your response. Then I got caught up in a little childish play in Idiotville. Then I had a call from a special friend who also needed help.

So here I sit tired, ready to fall out, with a long day tomorrow. My friend on the phone said I needed some sleep and I said no, I can't. jls posted back and I need to respond so she isn't hanging. (BTW, my friend on the phone likes you a bunch.)

And there was my epiphany. *I* didn't betray you. I'm a little late in my response, but the nature of my question left me a little beholden to kind of monitor your thread and watch for your response.

OK. Time for a little web-weaving.

WHY didn't I betray you? (By leaving you hanging and putting my OWN needs first. I AM really tired.)

Because you are wonderful? You may be. But *I* don't know that. I mean, I am familiar with your username and I think I may have posted you before. But I can't really remember.

Heck. You could be a real snott for all I know.

(Still weaving, be patient.)

I have no motivation BECAUSE of you to either betray you or NOT. We don't know each other well enough for your personality, or character, or goodness or whatever you claim to be (and I say claim only in the sense that I don't KNOW, because all I have to go on is what you say.)

So what WAS my motivation for coming back on in the wee hours to tie up this "loose end" I left. It certainly was not because of who you are.

(Sit tight, still weaving.)

My motivation was because of who *I* am. I value my integrity and sense of honor. I KNOW that I am honorable and good. (And to you, THAT is a claim, as you don't know me either). It had NOTHING to do with YOUR qualities at all.

So your professed "goodness" was neither a draw nor a repellent to my choice to honor my commitment to "finish what I started" on this thread with my difficult question. Your character had no bearing on my choice.

Stop and think about that. And if you are a little angry, don't look at what I said about you, I have no basis to say either way what kind of person you are. Just look at the cause-effect in our relationship, for that is what it is in it's meagerest beginnings. Guess what. You are now in a relationship with a faithful man who did not betray you.

Look at the cause-effect. There isn't any. Your character did not CAUSE me to come back and fulfill my obligation. MINE did.

(Still weaving, do you see the web now?)

You can't really argue that. Can you?

Next question: Would not the CONVERSE be true?

How then, could YOUR character CAUSE the other examples of men in your life TO betray you?

Sorry. Cause-effect is not there. It wasn't YOUR character, or nature, it was THEIRS.

Are you a Christian? One of the BEST verses in the Bible is

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

If you are not Christian, or strongly practicing, I can translate that into secular speak as well, for the principle is the same.

Be the best person you can be. Don't let the [censored] get you down, and they won't

Got it? Easy to see and understand. Harder to do. I know. But it CAN be done.

Ask believer. A long time ago I hit her with a similar statement. She grabbed on to it and MADE it real for her. And it worked. Will work for you.

So let's talk about this string of under-comitted men that has been plaguing you.

Why does it happen?

Tell me if the next statement makes sense to you:

Pain can be comfortable.

Was it Plato who proposed "the cave" theory? Can't remember. It's about people raised in a cave and all they see are shadows on the cave wall of the reality outside. And to them, the shadows ARE reality. It is all they have known.

I would suggest that your comfort zone is with under-comitted men. On a spiritual, or subconcious if you prefer, level, you are probably seeking them out because that is what you know.

It's not your FAULT. And you are not defective. It is just what you have known. A child raised by foul-mouthed parents will curse. Is it the kids fault? No. Not until he REALIZES that sprinkling curse words in general sentences is unacceptable does it become his fault. (A little simplified, but you get the point).

So now you are realizing that this undercomittment you are experiencing is unacceptable. And your soul needs a reason why. So you blame yourself. Why not? Everyone else seems to, right?

Back to James 4:7.

Be the BEST you can be. You are probably doing that. Then RESIST those demons, the naysayers, the blamethrowers. It is an ACTIVE word that requires EFFORT.

Why are nice people picked on? Shouldn't the world say "They're really nice, leave them alone." Yes, it should. But it usually says "FRESH MEAT."

NICE doesn't mean WIMPY.

Resist them. The thoughts that plague and devalue your soul. They are JUST NOT TRUE. Your husbands choice of betrayal is NOT BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE, but because of WHO HE IS. I proved that above, and frankly don't care WHAT your mother told you. It's just not true. Think of how silly that actually sounds. What did you do? Go up to your husband with some Jedi mind trick and say "You will cheat on me."

Ask ANY functioning WS on this board if they were MADE to cheat. They'll tell you no.

Pick one of your nasty thoughts. Just one to start with. Write it down and tape it to your mirror in your bathroom, or your steering wheel. Somewhere you'll see it a few times. And when you see it, PROCLAIM, not say, PROCLAIM "That isn't me, I am THIS." And in a while, it'll leave you alone. I promise you that. Yeah, you'll be tested, but if you keep up the effort, you will prevail. Especially if you have the submit to God part right.

Little steps. Eat that elephant one bite at a time.

=======

As to your question:


Yes. It does. But I am familiar with that little bugger you got botherin' you in that wonderful little head. I can spot a self-esteem problem a mile away. So it probably isn't to everyone.

It comes through loud and clear with all of your apologies. You don't have to apologize to us for who you are. We like ya'. And you don't have to assume we have a negative feeling towards you either. We'll tell you if we do.

And if we DON'T like you and DON'T tell you, that's really OUR problem, not yours.

REALLY praying for you, as I HATE that self-esteem issue,

NCWalker

ok, maybe none of that was what you were looking for nc.

I DO have value. I want to have value! What is my value? I read the thread on EN about what SAHM would earn salaries. Can I claim 131,000/annually as my value. That didn't include all the animal caretaking, but that is my own bad, I guess.

Ncwalker, that was just mean. I'm gonna go get some sleep, so I can at least be valuable on the field trip 2moro with the 2ndgraders. At least, S7 thinks that I am valuable (He says that I am the BEST HUMAN BEING in the world,but they are gullible at that age) - I can maybe keep that going for a coupla' more years.

Goodnite,
jls

Good job NC.

jls - get some sleep missy.

SS

jls,

I am sorry. I somtimes HATE this forum. If you could see the look in my eyes when I typed it, it probably would have made a difference.

The tone of your post up above (not right above) conveyed to me, and again, I am reading what you type, not seeing it in your eyes, or hearing your voice, that you had a lot of self-blame for the betrayals in your life.

If I got that wrong, I'm sorry.

I was trying to show you - and apparently failed - that your husband's actions were NOT a reflection of YOUR value with a little parable.

I am probably too tired as well and didn't explain where I was coming from clearly.

So let's start fresh. I do care, I really do. How about humoring me and telling me what part bothered you? I will try and make it more clear. But tomorrow. And if you want me to leave you alone, just ask and I can do that too.

NCWalker

nc,

I WAS keeping an eye out for you last nite. Wanted to get into that fun in Idiotville, but wasn't up to typing that much. We crossposted. I wasn't mad at all. "That was just mean" was said with a smirk. Sorry, I forget you can't see that.

I don't want you to leave me alone ~jls says pleadingly~

nc, I have been here so long and read so much. I forget who is who sometimes. You are like LM, unforgettable. And THAT is a compliment.

I will reread this after the fieldtrip. And give it all hte time and reflection that it deserves.

Thanks nc, and SS too.

jls

r u 2 the "board" counselors? Both of you ask (AND answer) the hard stuff!

Phew!

You have no idea what a relief that was. I really did think I had flubbed that big-time. Glad we're good.

But you owe me some sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NCW

Hi Jl,

Just from this tread, his history doesnt inticate he's ever been a moral, honest man. I mean, that's really some history!! I dont see that anything's changed. I'd really have to consider going forward with such a person. I know you know this, but you have to look at the person he is and not give in to the tough feelings. You'll 'feel' better in the long run by living your life with integrity. If you could have swallowed all his crap you would have done so by now. You cant. I couldnt have. Some can.


This says tons, too. Dont you think you deserve to hold out for a good one? Dont you WANT to think you deserve a good one? Please take care of yourself. I wish you well!! - Dru

JLS,

Just checking in. Missed you.

Dru has a point. There are good guys out there.

NCW

JLS, Hiya,

I'll make it a quick point to say if you grew up with parents like my parents, you probably sang many silly songs that had references to rotten fruit!

Back to you... I've read the recent posts to your thread and I am concerned with the idea we "deserve" certain things from our lives and the people in them. I don't know as I believe in all this "deserve" talk. The term "deserve" troubles me. As in we all "deserve" wonderful, happy, trouble-free lives and good feelings inside all the time. We deserve spouses that will be moral and giving people who love us unconditionally.

If we are so impossible that we hurt the people who love us most, is it really incumbent on them all to keep loving us?

For you biblical scholars, I would point out that even when God promises to take care of the people wandering in the desert, promising to fill their lives with happiness when they reach the promised land, the promise is not an unconditional one. God bestows six amazing blessings and then follows them up with no fewer than 104 curses.

Why? Why not just give the people what they "deserve"? Why threaten them and cause them worry? Because without exposure to discord and unhappiness, without "a mind to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear" we could not fully appreciate the beauty in our everyday lives.

Deserve also conveys a sense of attached failure that goes along with the concept of deserving goodness. Does that mean that if bad things happen to us, sickness or accident. do we deserve them too? Who can say what one of us deserves? Isn't that a typical WS line -- I'm not good enough for you. You deserve better than me...

Just a thought.
Sally

Sally, I think I just missed ya in Idiotville.

Yeah, I think that I get ya. Deserve or Earn. NcW, put in you rplace again! No really, I haven't been "up" to the serious stuff in a few days. Still digesting. I have thought, tho, along those lines, Sally, I may have done something to "help" the betrayal along this time. I am NOT perfect, believe it or not. Didn't DESERVE all hte crap, but hey, who does?! And it is an MB concept, that even BS "help" the M get to that place where an A is more possible/likely. Plan A is to help remedy that, right. I have changed ALOT for the better, in the last 2 yrs, and am sticking to that story.

Anyhow, too tired to type, and not great at that anyway. So off to beddybye for me!

Thanks, Cutlet Sally. aND NOW, I'm "bumped" for 2moro!

jls

Oh, and Dru, not avoiding your post. I THOUGHT that I had held out for the good one! Be bcak 2moro.

jls

Sal gets a high five.

But I think Dru and I (and can only speak for me) meant was that before JLS settles for something, she needs to understand in doing so, she gets what she settles for.

One of my favorite lines I use here is that Satan will give us something good to keep us from the best. Don't want that to happen to JLS. And I do think we deserve the best, there is just a path we must walk to get there. Ancient Israelites kept screwin' up in the desert. Reap what you sow kinda stuff.

The part about pain and ugliness helping one appreciate beauty and pleasure is a worldview many here share. Myself included.

NCW

Hey now, JLS, that was not an attempt to put anyone in their place! :-) And this isn't a mutual fan club sort of thing, but NCW wrote a message to me in response to this week’s drama with Phil that really touched me and I want to share it with you. You can read it here: NCWalker Wisdom (scroll to bottom). I think there is something valuable in it for all of us, but I think you’ll probably get a lot out of it the way I did... It was very good stuff.

Sal

I HATE when posts disappear..I will try again!!



I appreciate already, mostly anyhow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Have had enuf exposure to discord - Got it, durnitall.





EGZACTLY, Dru. It's so HARD not to give in to those tough feelings, tho. I have swallowed quite enough already, thank you. The song is NOT.. Just a spoonful of cr#p, helps the medicine go down
-But, maybe we hate to think that we ( I mean I here, in case u didn't realize) made such a big mistake,thus then self-proclaiming to be such a bad judge of character!

NCW,


I don't like elephant.




Whoever told you that is the one that is the snot. Nah nah nah nah boo-boo.




1st: I would like to defend this a little and say, Maybe that there are just an awful LOT of those out there!

2nd: doesn't that still make it MY bad. Maybe not "fault" really, but still ME?!

3rd: Remember(or let me tell u if u missed this), I went thru a whole lot of therapy when I was younger. Dealt with severe depression in my 20's, over a period of ~5 years, off and on. Mostly bad when going thru a "break-up". Relationship and Men abandonment issues. Thought I had really gotten thru most of that. And REALLY thought that this one (my H) was NOT like that. Still don't think that he is about ready to abandon me, so to speak. Undercommitted, yeah maybe. Hmm, or incapable of more, I often wonder. But then I am letting him off the hook. Not my style, not at this point!

Gonna start another post later and xplain why I don't like H much right now. Maybe 2moro, I dunno. I know that everyone will be waiting impatiently. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks NCW,
Be back for more of this later either way,

jls

NCW,


Maybe so. But sometimes that is all that is served. If it's too big to swallow, you must eat it one bite at a time. Your only other choice - go hunt something else. You may be ready to do that.

MAKE SURE. (And I am not saying you are not.) But I personally could not live with myself on a decision this big without being sure.



It was illustrative. Of course, Nah nah nah nah boo-boo DOES kind of provide some evidence. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> WATCH IT, it's my alter ego Robby on I'ville, not ME.


I would agree. Why my wife found two just this year! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yeah. Guess it does. You have choices too. Unfortunately, there is no course in picking a significant other. At worst I would say, your fault, but who could blame you, how well equipped were you for the hunt?

But you got ammo now. You KNOW what a good relationship "looks like" from this site. Doesn't ease the pain your in, but maybe gives a little hope.


My heart aches for your pain. It truly does. But if you feel you are defective for learning about your boundaries by having them painfully crossed. Don't. I don't consider myself defective, and that's how I learned a lot of them too. Fact is. You are in good company. And a good person, wonderfully made.

Ya' know, THIS actually made me chuckle. He CHEATED on you. We don't need no steenkin esplanation. I personally would much rather see you use the energy somewhere else. On something FOR YOU. You deserve it. If nothing else, crack a darn cold-one, put up your feet, take a swig and say "Aaaaah! It's only up from here." Then crack one for me.

...or get a massage.
...or go swimming on a hot spring day.

If the vent helps, by all means do and we will all nod our heads in understanding. But get some time for YOU. You DO deserve it.

Anytime, JLS, and I MEAN that.

THAT is it, EGGZACTAMUNDOLY. I am NOT sure. Sure that he lied about some things?, YES. Sure that he lied after all that junk went down, YES. Sure that I want somebody else?, Nope.







Glad I made you chuckle,for a change. But, Again, I don't KNOW this for SURE. And I don't really think that I might ever, if'n he doesn't confess. And the odds of that are Not in my favor. And I don't know how to ge thru that.

But I CAN crack open a cold one. Actually I don't drink beer, but there is other stuff that I do drink. And I'll get one for you too. So tell me what you like and pull up a chair. Can we sit outside? I'll even lock the goat up so he doesn't ram you in the,hmm-mm, jewels!

I am supposed to be doing paperwork right now and THIS is not it. Be back later, probably after kids are in bed.

jls

But before I do that paperwork(and start that Mon diet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I will say this. H wants to move back in. Been pushing it really! Can't say that I blame him, even with my imperfections, I ain't that bad and hardly ever boring! Besides which, living with Mom and Dad is no fun, esp at 48.

Been thinking more about that Plan B thing. H simply says that I should trust him. Then, when I debate this point, he says time is all that will tell (he is right) and he really wants that time. I kept telling him that he needs to come up with a plan for us and to help me trust. (His turn)!! This is what he now says..Time.

I don't want to be unreasonable (I hate THAT). I feel for him, not being around his kids too! He was around this weekend alot again and played with S7 more than he has in years! H was very upset when nobody "wanted" him here last Wed, when I worked.

I JUST DON'T KNOW?!?!?!?! Phew, well..I don't.

jls

Been thinking more about that Plan B thing. H simply says that I should trust him. Then, when I debate this point, he says time is all that will tell (he is right) and he really wants that time. I kept telling him that he needs to come up with a plan for us and to help me trust. (His turn)!! This is what he now says..Time.

Did you go to MC (or IC) with him, and talk about the trust issue? If so, what was discussed.

I think going to counseling could be useful.

Trust is not something GIVEN by the BS.
It is something EARNED by the WS.

Time is a factor - trust is earned OVER TIME so that the BS can trust again. However, the secret is "Trust but verify." and if the WS has a problem with that, they don't understand the effect of betrayal very well.

SS

jls,

I agree with SS about trust.

Counseling would be useful, because it's not you educating your husband. And I think Steve Harley is the very best! He'll help your husband write a "recovery plan" that addresses the trust issue in a big way.

Think about it! It wasn't cheap $$$, but much cheaper than splitting up a family. In my case I made counseling with SH a condition of recovery! And, I'm so glad I did - recovery wouldn't have gone smooth at all, IF at all without his help. I had much to learn as a BS - I kept making mistakes that set back our recovery, until SH taught me not to.

I highly recommend him, and if you just can't - a MC that is pro-marriage who will help you navigate the counter-intuitive stuff...affair recovery is like a mine-field, you never know when/where you're going to step on that landmine. Counseling gives the tools you need to avoid the landmines - far less painful than stepping on every mine - I was naturally talented at hitting them all....how embarrassing!!! Lol!

Jls-

Just checking in on you again....and please, I don't find the fact that you learned from my mistakes remotely offensive....I'm glad someone learned from that Plan B mess I made LMAO!!!!! It was sorta like a car accident, wasn't it???? You know you shouldn't watch.....but you just can't help it LOL!!!

Omigosh....advice is funny that way isn't it?? It's soooooo hard to take and sooooo easy to give <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know exactly what you mean, that is why I generally reserve my comments...excluding the part of MB that I'm particularly adept at.....which is Plan A and snooping LOL!!!!! I will advise people on that, for whatever that is worth. I won't however comment on Plan B....not very much anyway, I WILL point out when I see a WS kicking and screaming that it's a GOOD sign, and stuff like that, but far be it for me to comment on something I so obviously suck at. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am still fighting the good fight.....it's an uphill battle a lot of days, but I'm having good days too.....lots better than before, so I can't complain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Caren

P.S. I'm sorry, this is a minor threadjack, but NC Walker.....*Sigh*

SS,



Yes, I went to see his counselor last week, just 1X. That was by myself, we now have an appointment together Friday.

My 1st impression was, "oh great, another mediocre counselor." We shall see. I gave her a brief synopsis. She DID catch on that I was not entirely happy, or rather I wa unfulfilled with the M BEFORE the "incident". She pegged that one!

Dewt said something on another thread about recovering from the A and then having the same old, or worse, relationship. Needs going unmet, etc. That filled him with dread. Sheesh, ME TOO!!!

That is one reason why I have not given into his pleas to move back. I not only think that he is untrustworthy in the one way, but I do not trust him to meet my needs, or help make this M "work"!! And he has given no indication that he "gets" any of it!

CSue, Thanks and I am seriously considering giving Steve Harley a call 2moro and make at least one appt. for me, if H doesn't want any part in it. I am still too confused, and the money doesn't scare ME as much as possibly making the biggest mistake - either way!

Caren, Thanks too. I am really sorry about your job. Hope you told your H. Can't help but agree with TA and LM in a way. Your H doesn't sound like the greatest thing, even before sliced bread. And that is not even counting the A. I have to think that you should be able to count on him for his support!! Withdrawal, pshaw! He doesn't sound like he is into the whole dynamics of family! Well, enuf about you. I don't know what you meant by "NCWalker, *sigh*", but you should probably know, NCW dates Fabio ! ;^) -sorry, I'Ville joke- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all your replies, and Don't stop now, people! I really need advice on how to get the most from 1-2 sessions with Steve Harley, as that might be all I get!

jls

Your 1st session w/Steve w/b more of a fact finding mission for him. But if you pay attention, Steve will give you something in return that w/b very helpful. You may not see it right away but pay attention.

We had only 1 session with Steve but it was enough to punch a hole through the fog that eventually played a part in tearing the A apart. Not right away but the seed of A destruction was planted. I will be forever gratefult to Steve for that help.

Your WS says he wants time. Let him have it. At his parents house. Your home is your sancutary. A WS who needs time should not be allowed back as a WS. Trust me, mamy of us BS made that mistake and all it did was bring prolonged grief and it was our fault because we let those pitiful WS' back and gave them time which they used to enable the A. In other words, we were duped to enable the A and meet some of their needs.

Does that make you feel used or what?!??!?!

L.

go with steve...period....fond a way. best money you'll ever spend.

hey how about suggesting he do a pollygraph for the fun of it...lol. the look on his face and actions will tell ya something without even having to do it...lol

BUMPITY bump-bump-bb-bbump!! just like the road i am on...

NOW, gonna try to get some DARN work done!!

Will bump again later if necessary -fair warning folks

hey nikko,

didn't call 2day (SH, that is). Stalling..afraid..

Anyhoo, we did talk about a lie detector test. Never did it. HE at first didn't want to, then said that he would...figured it would just be another waste of money, at the time I was so sure..and LBing all over.