Okay...I am creating this thread for the marriage roles for husbands and wives. Just wanted to get it out there so you wouldn't think I forgot. I am madly typing this stuff in and should have it up soon. I may just finish the husbands first and post...and then come back with the wives. That way you can digest the first part anyway and we can start the discussion.

Hang tight...it's coming.

Thank you for posting a seperate thread. I am really interested in reading what you have to say. I am hungry for what you have to say.

I was really getting confused on the other thread!!!LOL

Overview

For all of these sections for both the husband and wife, it is important to understand how this was originally set up. God designed marriage. It was His idea. He made the rules. Which is why we have so many divorces...because we refuse to read and/or live by the owners manual.

In Genesis, it outlines the first marriage. Adam and Eve. Adam was the head of Eve. Eve was to reverence Adam. To submit (as we will see in the wife's section later). So, how did sin enter the world??

It entered thru the marriage of Adam and Eve. Satan knew He couldnt do a direct frontal attack on Adam. No way. So what He did was to get Eve to disregard Adam's headship, to get her to make the decisions. And guess what? Most people think Adam was somewhere else when she was doing this. Nope. The Bible says he was standing right there as she talked to the snake.

So, we have a passive man not taking his leadership role and defending his wife. We have a wife that instead of forcing him to take the leadership role, decides to take charge herself. What we have is the woman becomes the man, the man becomes the woman...and all hell breaks loose.

Because of this break from God, we had a curse put on us. several things to the curse, like women's pain in childbirth. But the interesting thing is that God said that the man will seek to rule over the wife, and the wife will seek to take over. What the curse became is the Battle of the Sexes. The man is going to want to rule because he was made to rule. Of course, he will want to rule as a despot...not like God rules. And the woman will want to not be ruled, and she will want to take charge.

God gave each of us unique abilities. Men cannot have babies...no womb. Men cannot feed the babies...no breasts. Men cannot "mother" babies...we are not equipped to.

I hear many today that say that there is no difference between a mother and father...except plumbing. That is not true! I can be a great father. I cannot be a great mother. And the two ARE different!! Which is another reason why homosexual "marriages" and them raising kids do not work. Because there is something missing, either a man or a woman.

My wife cannot teach my sons what it is to be a man. I cannot teach my daughter what it is to be a woman. My daughter looks to me for the type of man she may someday marry. My sons look to my wife for what they will look for in a future wife. There is no substitute for this folks.

Sure, we know of many single parents that are doing their very best and surviving against the odds in raising the kids. But I have learned that even with those efforts, they still fall short. I got custody of my kids during our mess. I was raising them almost exclusively by myself. And I believe I did a great job. But guess what? I look back now and know that there will always be something missing if they do not have a woman in their lives to show them what it is supposed to be like to be a wife and mother. What it is like to be a woman.

So, all of this mess goes back to Adam and Eve. Adam was responsible, because he was the head. But it was Eve who ignored her head and wanted to take charge (as we will see later).

But as Christians, we are redeemed fro mthe curse. We can have the marriages we want. We can be what we should have been, before Adam and Eve screwed it up. And Scripture tells us how.

Husbands
To give an over view, what I have learned is that our roles are very unique. We arent just two, co-equal spouses. That there are things ONLY a woman can do in a marriage, and there are things that ONLY a man can do in a marriage. Of course, we know the obvious ones.

But, according to the Bible, God requires two thing for us to do and be...one for the wife and one for the husband. Out of these, there are three major areas each that we accomplish these.

The Bible says that a husband is commanded to love his wife, like Christ loves the church. And the wife is commanded to respect (or translated another way...reverence) her husband. So it comes down to the husband loves, the wife reverences.

In order to do this, we have to meet needs in three major areas each...I guess for this discussion, we will start with the man first.

Husband (Sacrificial Love)
1. Become your wife's Savior
2. Become your wife's Sanctifier
3. Become your wife's Satisfier

Becoming Your Wife's Savior....(Ephesians 5:25)

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"

Well, when the Bible says that a man should love his wife like Christ loves the church, that opens a huge area of discussion. And in order for us to know what this type of love is like, we have to understand what that love is like.

For those that dont know...other languages have many words that are translated into English as "love." There is the friendly kind of love, there is the lustful kind of love. And others. Now, is that how Christ loves us? No, His kind of love is what is called Agape in the Bible. it is ithe kind of love that asks for nothing from the recipient. It is the kind of love that loves someone, even when that someone is hurting them.

Those that have seen the Passion of Christ can get a picture of what that love looks like. I watched that movie again recently and came to a new understanding about what God requires. And make no mistake men...it is required. It is not optional. You cant decide to love your wife, only if she is treating you well. You cant decide to agape your wife, only if she is being faithful. No, this commandment is to love her enough to die for her.

Now, most men would say that they would die physically for their wives. If a bus was about to hit them, they would jump out and push their wives out of the way and take the hit themselves. But what about other areas in their life? What about when it comes to around the house? Do we REALLY love our wives like Christ loves us?

As we will see later in this discussion, our wives are commanded to submit to our leadership in the home. So, what kind of leader are we? What do we give up, what do we sacrifice, what do we do everyday in order to "save" our wives?

As I heard in this study...you know, before Jesus met you, He was doing fine. Before He came down to Earth, He was living large. He never knew pain, He never knew betrayal. Until He met me, He was living the perfect life.

And then all of you showed up...and I showed up...with our sins, with our complaints, with our not wanting to follow Him. You know what Christ could have done? He could have said "You want me to give up my good life here in heaven, you want me to come down there and help the very people that thumb their noses at Me, who show little love and acceptance for Me...who will actively betray and even kill me? Oh no you don't. You aren't going to mess up my life."

That’s what many men say about their wives. They say “I was fine until you showed up. I had money in the bank, until you showed up. I had peace of mind, until you showed up.”

He could have said that. And we would all be doomed to suffering the consequences of our lives and actions.

So, what made Him come? What made Him give up EVERYTHING in order to rescue us...to save us? In one word...love. It wasn’t love because we deserved it. Shoot, we were doing the exact opposite of loving Him. We deserved nothing but contempt and destruction. This was a different kind of love. It was a "choice love." It is a love that says "I chose to love you because of who I am. I chose to help you, even as you spit in my face. I chose to die for you, even as you are the one who is killing Me." It is a love beyond feelings.

Ladies...if you had a husband who would die everyday for you, who would sacrifice his life, his wants, his needs...who would lay his very life out there for you...would you have some Good News for him?

Guys, women need this. All of Dr. Harley's principles, when applied to the wife...are within this genre. When a woman wants SF, it is in the context of having SF with a man who has been willing to sacrifice all for her...to make her safe and to feel safe. If her highest need is financial security, it is in the context of a man willing to work three jobs, sacrifice his health and sleep, in order to make sure the lights stay on and the food is on the table. If her highest need is respect, it is in context of a man who respects his wife enough to be her biggest fan, her biggest encourager...and to move heaven and earth in order to help her accomplish her goals.

And you know what guys?? You get to do this without expecting ANYTHING in return. As a matter of fact, you may do this and be met with betrayal or hurt or indifference. But you said you wanted to be like Jesus didnt you? Well, welcome to His world.

In baseball, there is a sacrifice bunt. The sacrifice bunt is where a hitter pushes the ball down the third or first base lines in such a way that a runner that is on base can move to the next base.. The reason for a sacrifice bunt is to move someone else along. Now you may go up to bat thinking that you are going to hit a homerun, you are going to show your strength. And them some third base coach tells you that you have to give up your right to swing for the fence, in order to move someone else along. And it usually means you will be thrown out at first base.

Husbands, God says you must lay down a sacrifice bunt for your wife. That you must always be about moving her along in life, as we will see in other sections of this study.

So, the first part of this Agape for your wife is to be her savior. It is to die for her, to lay yourself out there and be "The Man." Sure, it will hurt. Crosses hurt. Spikes in your hand hurt. Spikes in your feet hurt. Spears in your side hurt. No one is saying that loving your wife wont hurt.

But if you want a marriage that survives, if you want a woman that will respond to your leadership, who will reverence you...if even if she doesnt...if you want God's blessings in your life...then you must love her enough that you take the chance that she might "destroy" you.

The study shows that in order to become your wife’s savior, you need to do three things: sacrifice, suffer, and substitute. If you are going to love her like Jesus loves the church, then you will have to sacrifice. As I have listed above, sacrifice…true sacrifice…is a public event. It has to be seen, by your wife and by others. Sacrifice also means you must suffer. It is the nature of sacrifice. If you are not suffering, then it isn’t sacrifice yet. As I outlined above.

The last area is substitution. Everyone that knows anything about baseball knows what a designated hitter (DH) is. The DH is a guy who bats in place of the pitcher. For the team, the pitcher is more valuable…the game rides in his hands. The team does not want an errant throw from the opposing pitcher to take out their pitcher. So, they put in a DH in his place, to bat in his place. Now, the DH is powerful, the DH can hit homeruns…most pitchers cannot. But it is in the best interests of the team that the pitcher be protected. Thus, the DH is asked to substitute for the pitcher because the pitcher is more valuable.

God is asking every man to be the designated hitter for his wife. To recognize the value of his wife, and stand in there and take the pitch for her.

A great example of all of this was a hail storm one year in Texas. Four women were trapped in the storm as baseball sized hail rained down. And that sized hail can kill you. Their husbands were underneath an overhang, and when they saw their wives trapped in the deluge, they bolted out from underneath and ran thru the hail to them. Once there, they draped their bodies over them to protect them from the hail. As they tried to move back to safety, the men were being bludgeoned by the hail. Some had cuts on their head, their ears. One was knocked unconscious, but as he went unconscious, he fell on top of his wife, covering her and protecting her. After the storm was over, the TV news asked the women what they thought of all of this. One of the wives spoke up…”Everytime I see those scars on his ear, on his neck, on his head…I love him more. I love him more, because he took the hit for me.”

When we get to heaven, we will get a new body. Everything that is wrong with us here will now be right. But there will be one in heaven with scars. You will know Him. He will still have the holes in His hands and feet…and the scar in His side. And a billion years from then, you will still know Jesus by those scars. And those scars will remind you over and over again…that you have been loved.

You see, in order to be a Savior guys…you have to die first. You do not get Easter on Sunday, without going to Calvary on Friday. Many men say that they cant see God working on His wife. They cant see God raising their wife and their marriage from the dead. Well, God can’t raise something or someone that hasn’t died yet. In order to have a Crown, you have to have a Cross. You must die.

Now God asks you to lay yourself on the line out there. That you will sacrifice, suffer and substitute for a woman that will take advantage of that or ignore it. It is a risk. And many of you are asking the question…why? Well, Jesus believed in something. He believed that if he risked everything, if he sacrificed, suffered and substituted for us on the Cross…that God would have enough love for Him to get Him up out of the Tomb. We husbands must begin to believe that if we handle the savior part, by sacrificing, suffering and substituting for our wives…by dying for them…that we can trust that Easter will come for us, and God will get us up out of that grave.

For many of us, no marriage counselor in the world is going to fix your wife. She is gone. But if we take care of our end of it, God will take care of her. If we die for her…God will raise us from the dead…and we will find a transformed life, and possibly a transformed wife and marriage.

As I have stated all long here…Dr. Harleys principles directly dovetail in here. Sacrificing?? For example, we do that by meeting those three top ENs, even to our own detriment.

Remember, if you want to be a lover, a REAL lover...that love looks like the Cross.

Okay…next post will be Becoming Your Wife’s Sanctifier.

Thank you for posting this stuff - I can't wait to see what you write on the Woman's role. All very interesting and spiritual.

Mortarman,
Thank you for posting this I am forwarding it to my h.

I have followed your story over the years. And the sacrifice you made to stop with your career for your family must mean so much to your family. My h also is career military and it is number on in his life. At the expense of his kids. I often have told him what happens when the military is through with him and his kids don't acknowledge him cause they don't know him. There is a balance between work and family.

My love would grow for my h if he put us first and when he has made that effort my love and respect does grow. However he has the tendency to put his coworkers ahead of us. I've often told him that if he would teach and care for his daughters the way he teaches others that they would be very lucky girls. My oldest is very angry at her father cause he has never been here for her. He very rarely emails them or communicates with them while on deployment. Must admit this time he is trying but what is trying to kids.

When my h does actions that shows me that I am important to him no matter what else is going on my respect and love for him grows.

Thanks again for doing this.

I had to learn this as well. Unfortunately, many of us guys are not brought up with this knowledge that I am presenting from the Bible. We dont understand you women. And we throw our hands in the air. When all along, we had the answers at our fingertips. I am making sure my two boys know this as they become young men. And my daughter will know this and see this out of me, as an example of who she should search for herself.

Giving up my career was very painful. It was everything to me for most of my adult life. I had in almost 10 years before I met my wife. My career predated my wife. Giving it up was a sacrifice. And she has noticed. It is probably the MOSt important thing I have done that brought us back fro the brink of divorce...my sacrifice for her...even while she was actively running away from me.

Hang tight...got two more sections for your husband...one I am posting now.

Becoming Your Wife's Sanctifier...(Ephesians 5:25-29)

Okay, here’s part two of the roles for the husband. Becoming your wife’s sanctifier. Many men are shocked by what they wind up with after they are married. They thought they were marrying this quiet person…she hasn’t stopped talking yet. He thought he was marrying a submissive woman…she started bossing him around right after the wedding. We men had a perspective on what we thought we were getting into and who we were getting into it with…only to be highly disappointed. Many men say “She’s changed.” Actually, what has happened is that she changed back. Back to what she was before she put on her best face for you while you were dating.

“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.”

Scripture is saying that a husband should love his wife like Christ loves the church in order to sanctify her and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. Now, I will spend the rest of this installment tearing that sentence apart in order to find out what it means to sanctify our wives.

God not only wants us to be our wives’ savior, He wants us to be Her sanctifier. The word sanctification is one of those big words that basically means “to set apart as unique or special.” In the Bible many times, God took the vilest things and sanctified them for His own use. When a man sanctifies a woman, he sets her apart from her past. When we were dating and we decided to ask our wives to marry us, we made some glorious promises (most un-kept…but we meant well!). And those promises were of what we would do together, where we would go, what kind of life we would have. What we were doing was sanctifying our wives from their past. In the marriage ceremony, a great disconnect happens between a previous relationship of hers (usually to the wife’s father and mother) and she moves to a new relationship with her husband. And the only reason she should do that is that her future with him looks better then the one she had with her father.

Christians, you are saved today if you have accepted what Christ did for you on the Cross as your savior. But with receiving Him as your Savior, you also got with that…a sanctifier. You didn’t just get someone that said “I do” at your conversion…you also got someone who said that “I will hang with you in order to help turn you into what you should be.” If you have the right kind of savior, you automatically get a sanctifier.

1st Corinthians 7:14 says that the believing husband sanctifies the unbelieving wife. Even if a believing husband is married to an unbelieving wife, his very presence in the home sanctifies that home, and that woman. Because he is there, there are blessings that will accrue to that home that would not accrue were he not there. For those that know the Old Testament, a great illustration of this was Rahab the prostitute. Go and read the account of what happened to her, and how her family was sanctified or set apart due to what she did with the Israelites. Guys, before you think about leaving your wife, and leaving the kids with her, think about the fact that if you are a believer, and she is an unbeliever…and you leave that house…the presence of God leaves with you.

Oh, and that verse in 1st Corinthians goes on to say that you are a sanctifier, else your children will be unclean. We have kids running around today because they have no influence from a Christian father. They are not being sanctified by the presence of their father.

Now, to express this point again…you cannot become a sanctifier until you become a savior. And saviors die! If you want to change your wife, if she is not submitting to you, if she is not living up to her side of the bargain…and you have seen all of your actions and endeavors to sanctify or change her go for naught…maybe it is because you are trying to be a sanctifier before being a savior. The goal of sanctification is to change something from what it is into what it ought to be. But until we men are ready to die (in other words…die to ourselves), then don’t expect our efforts to bring about change that works.

What’s the process of sanctification? Scripture says in verse 26 that she has been cleansed by the washing of water by the word. What I am about to tell you here guys will change your wife. But it assumes that you have changed first. What He is saying here is that every man who has a wife, is to become her…pastor. As the husband, you have been made pastor over your house by God. But, are you pasturing your house?? Most men do not take the pastoral role in their homes and therefore don’t see the changes in their homes that they expect. God wired women to change…if they are shepherded. God calls every man to be his wife’s pastor.

When you married your wife, you didn’t just marry her…you married her history. You married everything that made her what she was up until she met you and she hid from you while dating. She didn’t let you see all of that stuff…because she knew that you would have said then what you are saying now “I wouldn’t have married you if I knew all of this.” You didn’t see her without make-up, or with her hair undone. You didn’t see the nasty attributes she hid from you. You didn’t see the “Dark Side.”

What Jesus does for His bride (the church) you are to do for your bride. You are to pastor her, in order to bring about change. In 1st Corinthians 14:34-35. the Bible is very clear on the subject of men pasturing heir homes: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” What Scripture says is that if a wife wants to know something, learn something, understand something…she shouldn’t head to the pastor at her church first…she should be heading to the pastor in her home…her husband. Her private pastor. A shepherd who knows how to open up the Word and minister to his personal congregation. But if you are going to be a pastor in your house, you need to go to church and learn from the pastor in that house. You need to go to Bible study. You need to learn all you can, so you can answer the questions of your wife…so you can shepherd her.

It is the job of a man to be the spiritual head of his home. A wife can not do this…the husband has been given that role, and the tools to do so. She has not. Now watch this…if you are not the spiritual head of your home…don’t be surprised if you are no head at all. So, here is the question. How many times a week do you pray with your wife? How many times a week do you have devotionals with your wife? How often do you spend time calling on God with your wife? If you are doing it rarely, you are pastoring rarely. Don’t expect the congregation to show up, if the pastor is hardly in the pulpit.

You see, this is what Scripture is saying. It says that the way that Jesus sanctifies (sets apart…changes) his bride is by pasturing it. And if you want to sanctify and change your wife, then you have to do so by washing her with the Word. By pastoring her. If your wife has to come to church to get pastored…then you have another man more influential in your home than you are. It means that another man has too much power over your wife. YOU are her pastor!

Now, as a pastor, you aren’t just there to say what is wrong. The pastor at your church doesn’t just sit up there and tell you what’s wrong. He also gives you how to make it right. That is the proper way to pastor. If all your wife hears is what is wrong…that is not a pastor. A pastor doesn’t skip what’s wrong…but he always provides the solutions to those problems.

But this pasturing has to be ongoing. Most women want a little everyday from their man, whether it be attention or pasturing or whatever…rather than two or three biggies a year.

So, you ask…”so if I do this, and I pastor and sanctify my wife, what can I expect?” Well, look at verse 27…” That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” You see, most men don’t understand their power. God gave Adam the power to name the creatures of the world. He even named Eve. That is why a husband gives his name to his wife…because he is naming her. And with naming something comes dominion over it. God said that Adam would name the animals and have dominion over them. God said he created a man, but fashioned a woman (he threw us together, He took time with her). And when He gave Eve to Adam, Adam named her. I may have the spellings wrong, but the Hebrew word for man is “Ish.” Adam named Eve “Isha.” She didn’t take his name, he gave his name to her.

Adam gave Eve his name because he intended to be THE MAN. Before the wedding, the woman gets ready for her husband. The wedding is hers. It is her day. Guys are to stay out of all of that, to let her plan and prepare her day. Because you want to make it clear that once she says “I do,” then I am THE MAN. It is her day up until that day…after that day, it’s my day. I now set the agenda, I now set the agenda. Not independently of my wife. We are partners, we are equals. But as the head of my home, I set the final agenda. I need my wife’s input, her ideas, her concerns…they are critical. But make no mistake about…she takes MY name.

The purpose of sanctification for Jesus is for Him to make the church more glorious than it was yesterday. The purpose of sanctification of your wife by you is to make her more glorious than she was the day before. A husbands lifetime goal is to continue the process of sanctification in order to make your wife more glorious then she was before. And that is done by getting rid of spots and wrinkles. Spots are defilement from the outside, wrinkles are defilement from the inside.

A great example of what I am talking about here is the new phenomena of square watermelons. It is where they take a watermelon and grow it in a square box. They do this so it will fit in your fridge. As the watermelon grows, it takes on the shape of the box. Many men wonder why their wives are still “oblong” wives instead of “square” wives. Well, maybe it is because she isn’t in the right environment for that change to happen, for her to be able to conform to what she should be. You want her to talk to you different than she used to talk to you? You want her to relate to you differently than she used to relate to you? Then you need to set the environment. Husbands are the thermostat, wives are the thermometer. Her job is to be the temperature that you set. So don’t expect a summer wife if you are bringing home winter weather.

Your wife may be this big problem. But if she is brought daily into the realm of your touch, your kindness, your shepherding, your care…then she won’t mind winding up as a square watermelon.

Next stop…the final role of the husband…becoming your wife’s Satisfier….

bumping in anticipation of more to come...

Faithful, more tomorrow...I am off to bed!!

I shared this with my FWH last night. We are both christians and knew all of this but never really practiced it. He sees his mistakes and I see mine.

Thank you so much for the information. We can not wait for the rest!!

Becoming Your Wife's Satisfier...(Ephesians 5:28-31)

“So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.”

Many men are like Adam…”it is the woman you gave me Lord, that is the reason I am in this mess.” Many men have said that I would be much better off if I had not married you.

This passage here refers to meeting needs. Becoming your wife’s sanctifier is about meeting the needs that Dr. Harley has so eloquently shown us. “I will supply all your needs according to the riches in Christ Jesus.” Jesus takes it upon Himself to take care of His bride’s (the church) needs. Most men when they are lying while dating, promise to meet their wife’s needs. But now they are saying “I didn’t know she was that needy.” But we need to remember that we as the church need Jesus to fill our needs everyday.

Do you know why Jesus goes about meeting the needs of His bride? Because He understands something about leadership that most men do not. The higher you go up the ladder of leadership, the greater servant you become. You see, most men define leadership as: “being the BOSS.” I’m in charge here…this is my home…I am the king of my castle. In the upper room, the disciples fought over who would be the greatest in the Kingdom. Jesus said that you will always know who the leader is because the greatest among you will be your servant. Now please remember this sentence, because the whole concept of being your wife’s satisfier rides on this. Anyway, this is why Jesus washed their feet in the upper room. Peter said that “Hey, you can’t do this…you’re in charge.” Jesus said “because I am in charge, I do this.”

To meet your wife’s needs means you must become a servant. The Bible says you are the leader of your home, the head of your wife. But it also says that as the head, you must become a servant. The definition of Biblical leadership includes being a servant. Just as Jesus is a servant for his bride. Now of course, Jesus is Lord (and we will talk about how you women are to treat your husband as lord in your part)…but you will sure make it more conducive by being a servant.

This passage basically says that your wife is an extension of you. And whatever you do for you, you should do double for her. To love your wife as your own body. Look, we guys take care of our needs. Sometimes we do so, even when we don’t feel like it. Well ,the same goes for doing this for your wife.

Biblical love is driven by the meeting of needs. Now, I can hear you now. “She is going to take advantage of that. If I begin meeting needs, she is going to take advantage of that and I am going to be misused.” Oh...you mean kinda like we do with Jesus? He cant bless us enough, and we are complaining!! He cant meet our needs enough and we are complaining. Yes, there is a risk to make it your goal of meeting the needs of this other person. But that is what love does…it takes that risk. It is an act of the will.

But in order to meet these needs, you need to know them…

1st Peter 3:7, “Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”

The first part of this says to dwell with your wives in an understanding way. In a different translation, it says to know your wife. You cant meet needs you don’t understand. But here is the problem…understanding a woman. That is like going to a foreign country, with another language!! Men are told to study the Bible, and told here to study their wives.

Many times your wife speaks from how she feels, and you are answering what she should do. She may be sitting there sharing a problem that she has, and you sit there coming up with a solution to a problem she has not fully expressed yet. The reason we men want to come up with a solution for this problem that she hasn’t fully explained is that we don’t want to take the time to hear all of that. In our mind, she is taking two hours to explain something that really only takes 5 minutes. So what we offer to do is to cut out an hour and 55 minutes of conversation and get to the point. “Let me help you…this is how you fix that. Let me help you so we don’t have to spend 2 hours discussing it.”

But we men don’t understand. In men language, we say a word and we understand the surface meaning of the word…and we act on it. But she wants to describe that thing. You see, she doesn’t just want you to understand it intellectually…she wants you to feel it with her. She wants you to “emote” with her. That’s why this passage says to dwell with your wives, which in the Greek means to live with her. To spend time with her. It means be there long enough to understand…and that means time. That’s why when you offer a solution, she is getting mad. You are wondering why she is getting mad over a problem you are trying to fix? Well, it is because she wants to know that you are more concerned about her than her problem. She doesn’t just want you to fix the problem…she wants you to “fix” her while helping to fix the problem. That takes time, because part of her getting “fixed” is her ability to fully express. It takes time to learn a foreign language. We must dwell with her long enough in order to understand her needs. It takes that to not only understand what her needs are, but also how she feels about them. And that takes a servant.

You know, the Ritz Carlton has service like no other. In most hotels, you have the concierge. The concierge is there to provide you answers, to give you solutions to your problems. Not at the Ritz Carlton. Every employee at the Ritz is told that they are not only to tell someone how to get something done or get something fixed or whatever, they are to TAKE them there to get it fixed or to get that need met. At the Ritz, someone is always taking you somewhere…or they will have you sit there while they go get it. People keep showing up at the Ritz because of this kind of service. We men wonder why our wives don’t show up when we need them and that is because we want to be a concierge. We want to give quick answers rather then taking them, leading them to the solution. Walking them thru the details. That takes time. Time we used to give them while we were dating…time we cant seem to find for them now. It’s not because we don’t have time…just look at the worn out remote. We have plenty of time. It is just that we don’t have time for them. There fore they feel like they aren’t understood. Therefore they are complaining and not satisfied. They are complaining because the investment level is so low.

So how do we husbands know that we are fulfilling this. Take out a sheet of paper and divide it in half. On one side, write at the top “SHE SERVES ME.” On the other, write “I SERVE HER.” Then right down on her side everything she does directly for you. If she cooks your meals, that is directly for you. If she washes your clothes, that is directly for you. Then, write down on your side everything you do directly for her. Now, if her side is longer than your side…then she is the husband, and you are the wife. You know why? Because, if her list is longer than your list…”the greatest among you shall be your servant.” She is the greater because she is the greater servant. She has established herself as the leader.

It says a man should love his wife like he loves his own body. You are the greatest. So you should be the greatest servant. That means you need to lengthen your list, or shorten hers (or a combination of both). For she is to NEVER out serve you!!

Look, why do we give a big tip to a waiter that does a great job? I mean, it is their job. But, if he did a great job, we want to reward that service. Many men want a big tip…at eleven o’clock at night…and she looks at your service and rolls over.

The passage goes on to describe how a man meets these needs. It says that a man must nourish and cherish his wife. That is what Christ does for His bride. Every woman, whether she knows it or not, needs to be nourished and cherished.

Nourish just means to feed in order to mature. When we got saved, Jesus didn’t just stop…He got started on us. That is why you don’t date to marry…you marry to date! In our culture, we date to marry, and then we wonder what happened after the wedding. Well, we stopped dating!! Instead, we should spend a lifetime learning how to meet the needs of our wives.

When she marries us, she should be better off because she has someone undistractedly investing in her blossoming. She is going to flourish under your regime like she would have never flourished under her father’s regime. Her father had his own wife, he had other children. Your wife has her husband who should be about making his wife all she can be.

A man nourishes his wife in 5 ways:

1. Words of affirmation. He becomes her cheerleader. Instead of “thank you for dinner” it becomes “that meal was incredible, honey.” Some might say “I don’t know how to do that.” Well, you did when you were dating her!!

2. Quality time. A listening time. Regularly saying “Honey, I want us to take some time right now, and me just listen to you about that problem you were telling me about yesterday. I have blocked out the next hour…and I just want to hear you tell me what you feel about that.”

3. Receiving of gifts. It doesn’t have to be a diamond ring, because the point of the gist isn’t the gift…it is just “you were on my mind.”

4. Acts of service. Doing the unexpected. Washing the dishes when she normally does it. Or making the bed up today when she normally does it. I mean, that only takes two minutes. But suddenly, she feels like she has become immensely important.

5. Physical touch. Non sexual touch. Not a touch that says “I’m going somewhere.” A touch that says “I want to be close to you, I want to be near you.”

That is how you nourish your wife. But the problem is that we want to bring our marriage to the big car shop of Marriage Builders and Dr. Harley and ask him to fix it, when we have never changed the oil, never done the routine maintenance. And you could have never had to deal with this, if you had just given it regular maintenance.

The other way to be your wife’s Satisfier is to cherish her. It says to understand your wife’s needs, for she is the weaker vessel. Now, that is a misused verse. A woman is only weaker to a man in one way…physically. In every other classification, she is not weaker. The word “weaker” there doesn’t mean “less than”…the word weaker has to do with how you handle highly valued material. Fine china. You don’t treat fine china like paper plates. The reason you handle it carefully because of how much you value it. This is a value issue. A man is to value his wife like fine china.

The word cherish is a word that means to warm up, like a bird that uses its wings to cover and warm its young. It means “you are special, top priority, number one…there is nobody like you.” She always feels like she is special. Cherish. To hold as unique or special.

Now, men have it as a goal to constantly change their wives. That is what Christ does with His bride, right? But, she isn’t going to change just because you say change. She is going to change because it is in her best interests to change. And what will make that change in her best interests, according to God…is two words. Nourish and cherish.

You have plates in the sink that haven’t been washed for several days and now you decide you are going to clean them. Food is crusted on them. And then you show up and want to start scrubbing on them. Just scrubbing away at that hard food. But isn’t there a better way? How about sticking them in some water with some detergent and letting them soak. You aren’t really doing anything, just putting them in an environment of softness. That hot water and detergent starts loosening up all of that tough stuff.

Some of our wives are hard. They might be hard due to life experiences, or a domineering mother…or even our actions. And now all of a sudden, you are going to be the man and start scrubbing?? “Get off of there…you’re going to change!!” And you are scrubbing and scrubbing and everyone is irritated. She’s irritated for you for pushing, and you’re irritated for having to push. And God says “Why don’t you soak her?” Put her in the water and soak her with nourishing and cherishing and watch Me loosen up the stuff.

The passage goes on to say that we are the members of one body. That is why we nourish and cherish. Because when we nourish and cherish our wife, we do so also for ourselves.

Ephesians goes onto say that a man leaves his father and mother. Notice, this has nothing to say about a woman leaving her father and mother. This says a man is to leave his father and mother. Why? Because it is your job as the leader to establish something new. Which means you are to sever any ties that conflict with or compete against this new relationship. You are to take the lead in creating the environment.

Then it says that a man will cleave to his wife. Which means to stick like glue. What that means practically is NO DIVORCE. Malachi says God hates divorce. And He is talking to men there for putting away their wives. God is saying in Malachi that He will judge you for an illegitimate divorce. Why? Because in marriage, you are to stick like glue.

Now notice the final sentence is that the two shall become one. The man leaves, the man cleaves…but not until you get to the third line does the woman even come in. When a man leaves and sets up the proper environment…when the man cleaves to his wife like glue so that she knows that this relationship is permanent…THEN you become one flesh! You cant become one flesh if you are fighting to be two flesh. To operate as two when you are supposed to be coming together as one, means there will be a breakdown in the relationship. And, oh…by the way…don’t bother to pray about it because God says He isn’t listening! Because how you treat her is how He will treat you. 1st Peter 3:7 “So that your prayers be not hindered.” One of the reasons you might not be getting your prayers answered is that you have not seen to it that she is getting hers answered.

She wants a husband who will care for her, who will nourish her, who will cherish her. But no, she has one that says “I don’t have time, I have work. I don’t have time, I have a football game. I don’t have time, I have this or that. I don’t have time.” And then you come to church and get on your knees and ask God to answer your prayers, and God is screaming from Heaven “I don’t have time!! Don’t ask me about that job promotion, don’t ask me about getting that need met. I DON’T HAVE TIME!” However you treat your wife, He will treat you. The best way to get your prayers answered is to see to it that she gets hers met. God will see you meeting hers, and he will meet yours.

A great illustration of this is the story of a country where when you wanted to get a wife, you brought cows with you for exchange. Well, in this one village, this man had two daughters. The youngest was very beautiful...the oldest very haggardly. One day, the father heard a rich man was coming to town to find a wife. So he wondered how many cows he would get for his beautiful younger daughter. Maybe one, maybe two. When the man arrived, he arrived with ten cows. WOW!! The father thought “I’m rich!!” But when the man came by, and saw the two daughters, he chose the older one…and paid ten cows for her. Her father was perplexed. He loved her…but couldn’t understand. “Ten cows…for her?”

Well they went off to be married and set up house. About a month later the father saw her again. And he couldn’t believe his eyes. Here stood a woman that was more beautiful than even his younger daughter. Wow!! How could this have happened? Simple. When she saw her value in the eyes of her husband… no matter what she looked like on the outside, she was worth 10 cows to him. So, when he showed that and treated her like a 10 cow woman, she began to want to be a 10 cow woman and look like a 10 cow woman. She started to want to be like what he was treating her as.

What that means is that we need to treat our wives like thoroughbreds, and then we wont end up with old nags!! Decide what we want her to be, how we want her to change…and then nourish and cherish it.

Now some husband might say “That is all fine for a normal girl…but my wife isn’t normal. You cannot imagine all of the needs she has. How can I begin to meet all of the needs that this woman has?” Simple. “My God will supply all your needs according to His riches in Christ Jesus.” See, we forget that it isn’t just our ability here. God says that if we do what we can do, then He’ll come down and give us what we are lacking. Remember, we also have a provider who will nourish and cherish us.

Okay, next time we get to the women!!

Mortarman -FINALLY we get the thread going.

My question, and I'm sure the question of many of my sisters, is how you get the husband to be the leader?

My WH has been a Christian for over 30 years. Very early in our marriage, we took a church sponsered class that talked about "honoring your husband and the marriage". I looked at what I could do to honor him, and decided to make him breakfast, pack his lunch, care for his children, be submissive, be available for SF, etc.

He in turn, ate it up.

I am not saying that he is not a good man, because he is. He always has had a caring heart, and treats everyone the same, whether the Queen of England, or a down and out homeless person.

But my WH never was the leader in our home. I did leave the decisions to him, much to my dismay. He spent our money on foolish things - 2 Harley's, and 4 other bikes.

I accept some blame for letting him do whatever he wanted. I thought I was being a good wife.

And this isn't just my story. I belong to a big church, and am active in it. What I see over and over is a good woman, yoked with a man who has no clue how to be a leader. Of course, there ARE men who can do this, but they are few and far between.

Believer,
I am one who is interested in that answer. I can say though that what started my h on the path was one week he was comenting on how chaotic our lives were. Our Pastor was talking about how when the man is not in the leadership role the wife has to step out of her role and it causes chaos in the family. It was a lightbulb moment for him and since then he has taken small steps. However I am still forced into that leadership role of the family because of his job.

The only thing I can say is pray, pray and pray some more.

bjs -

I guess we will have to discuss this more tomorrow. My WH never did get into the leadership role. I didn't step in either - I was waiting for him. It didn't work our for us.

Believer,
I have followed your posts over the year and I am sorry. You are an incredible person.

Sometimes I wonder if my strength has been what has caused problems in my marriage. Sometimes because I've been forced into that leadership role it appears that I don't need my h and there are many out there who are more than willing to be needy and then he is off to help. UGH

Hey, great question!! And some of this will be answered when we do the wife's roles shortly.

Look, a husband can ask the same question of a wife who is not fulfilling her roles. I am dying for her, I am meeting her needs, I am sanctifying her...and she runs right over me. She is not submissive. She doesnt do the things God says she should do.

There are examples on both sides. And the answer is the same for both.

First, God commands men to agape, and he commands wives to respect (reverence). This isnt a choice. It isnt if you feel like it, or if your mate is doing right. This has to do with your relationship with the Lord.

In your case, if you are doing your part (which I am working on now), then you can expect your prayers will be answered. Why? Remember, in the hierarchy that God has set up...your husband is the leader...he is your head. But your husband has a leader also...someone that he answers to. That is Christ. Again, I am going to discuss this shortly. But suffice it to say, Jesus has promised that if you do right...he can handle your husband. That is not to say he will come around. He first needs to be under the influence of Jesus...a believer. This is one of the biggest reasons why the Bible says that you should not marry an unbeliever.

But, no matter what your husband does or doesnt do...if you do not do what you are supposed to do, I can guarantee you one thing...God will not answer your prayers. As I said before, respect for your husband and his leadership role is not optional...God isnt into suggestions, only commandments.

The only other thing I will say to this right now (again, because a lot of this is covered in the women's section) is that you do not know your power. Take Eve. She had the power to take the passive Adam and make him take the leadership role. She could have forced the decision the snake was offering back on him. She could have said "Sorry, snake. You will have to talk to my husband about this. He is my head. I have my views on this and I will discuss them with him. But in the end, you will have to talk to him...Adam, honey...this snake says we should eat from the tree. I'm not so sure...but it kinda sounds good. What do you think?" "Well, I dont know." "Well, honey...that isnt good enough here because we need a decision. What isnt you dont know?" "Well, maybe you're right, maybe it is a good idea. But I know God did tell us to not eat from it." "Well, as the leader here, dont you think you shoud talk to God about this and see what He says?" "Yeah, I guess I'll do that...I'll be right back."

If Eve had done that, if she had continued to force Adam to take his leadership role, we would not be in this mess today. And she could have done it respectfully.

I do not know your situation. Each situation is somewhat unique. But I do know that you ladies have more power than you know of. Oh sure, you know the sexual power you have over us to get what you want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But what about the power of respect? What about the power of being our helpmate, of coming alongside and being our friend, our counselor? What about having that kind of influence and using it to make your husband take his leadership role.

Since God gave the husband the leadership role, He must have also given us some attributes and abilities that He did not give you ladies. Just as He didnt give us a womb for a fetus to gestate in...it appears God has given the husband unique access in his role as husband.

I was in the Army. Leaders always had an "Open Door policy." It mean anyone in the command could come see them with a problem. But, if yo uare a general with 13,000 soldiers, tha tcould be very problematic. In my case, I had 126 soldiers working for me. When a solider came in and said "Top, can I talk with you for a minute?" My first question was "have you talked with your immediate supervisor, your leader, first?" You see, the Army gives that leader access to me, that the lower ranked soldier does not have.

All of us follow Christ (Chrisitans, that is). And ALL of us can come before Him boldly, without any help from anyone else. But the ext does say that when it comes to the program of the family, that God does want it to function in a heirarchy. As a leader in the Army, I would never go around a lower ranking leader to talk to one of their soldiers...even though all of their soldiers were mine, since he worked for me. That would be undermining their authority and their leadership role.

I believe the text says that Jesus allows you to go straight to Him...but...when it comes to the family, He operates thru a chain of command. Which means that He is going to do many things for you, thru your husband.

Now, if I had soldiers who were obeying the lawful commands of their leader, but that leader was weak or not doign right...then I took care of that leader. Because I was his leader.

God can take care of your husband...you get out of the way. Again, I will go into all of this shortly...on how you get out of the way.

It is tough. As I said to the guys above, it is a risk to agape a woman that will take advatange of you and not do her part. It is a risk. And not all wives who have husbands who are doing right, come around to doign right. But a husband that is obeying Christ can count on blessings from Him and for Christ to use his situation for his good. But if he decides not to do right...then God says that He will not hear, nor answer his prayers.

Your marriage to your husband is temporary. it only lasts as long as you both shall live. Your realionship with Christ is eternal. Which one do you think is more important? So, do what He says, trust Him...and let Him do what you cant.

More soon!!

In His arms.

bjs, that could have been [color:"red"] me[/color] saying that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Powerful stuff, MM. Amazing how many of us ladies are waiting to see what our part is.

Yeah, I noticed that! Maybe I should have started with the ladies. But then again, it kinda feels good to have all of these ladies waiting impatiently for the Mortarman!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding!!

Gal stuff coming very soon!

It's like pins and needles, I am so excited to read the women's end of this lol

-ds

Wives

Since I did give the guys a preview, here is one for the gals...

God says there are two words which describe the roles of husbands and wives in marriage. Husbands are to love (agape) as I have shown above. Wives are to respect, or reverence their husbands.

It is interesting that God never commands a woman to love her husband. My wife used to say jokingly "You know, you have the hard part. All I have to do is submit...you have to die!!" Now while that is simplistic, it does have truth to it.

Much of what I will bring here from this study is not what secular, feminist society gives us. They hate the word submission. Feels it denegrates women. But wait a minute, the last I checked, God is a feminist, if the definition of a feminist is someone that is pro-woman, someone who is out for the best interests of women.

Women were the crown of God's creation. God sat there, after He finished everything...and looked right at Adam and said "this aint good." Then, after creating Eve, He said of His Creation "This is VERY good." Feminists today want to say that the roles prescribed by the Bible make women second class citizens. That is ABSOLUTELY not true. Women are the crown of God's Creation. They are the pinnacle of all He created in the Universe.

You take a look at the stars in the sky, or the beauty of a sunset amd think "Wow." But then think that when God was creating those, He wasnt done yet. He had to get to "very good." And that creations was the woman.

A marriage is supposed to be a picture of God, of who He is and what He is about. I nthe Godhead, we know there are three parts: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In a marriage, we know there are three parts: husband, wife, and Jesus. Just like with the Godhead, each of those parts have their individual functions and responsibilities. But do we not say that the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father? Is not Jesus equal to His Father (remember, He thought it not robbery to be considered equal to God)?

Then why in the world would we not think that a wife is not equal to her husband, just because of some of theroles and responsibilities that were assigned to her by God? What makes her roles and responsibilities less important than those of the husband?

In the Army, we have officers and we have non-commissioned officers (sergeants). In a unit, for example a Company, there is a Captain, who is the officer in charge...in command. There is also a First Sergeant, who is the NCO in charge. Are these two men equal? As a soldier, yes. They are equal. Roles? Yes. They both have their job to do, which are quite different. But who is in command? The Captain is in command, as designated by the Army. Nowas a First Sergeant, I had many more years of experience than that Captain. The last one I had was only in the military for about 7 years. While I had to close to 20 years of infantry experience. In terms of knowledge of the battlefield, in terms of soldiering...I had this man hands down. So, why wasnt I in charge? Because I wasnt an officer. The Army said that they need educated men and women in tactics and other things to lead units. So, they educate them and send them out to the units, wit hthe responsibility for whatever that unit does and does not do.

As an NCO, I rose thru the ranks. I didnt have to lead due to schooling (all though the Army gave me that). I led by example. I am the guy that trains the troops...not the Captain. I am the guy that looks out for their needs...not the Captain. And in most cases, when the bullets are flying overhead...it is me that the young private is looking for direction from...not the Captain. But in the end, the Captain makes the ultimate decisions. He gets to make the call. Why? Because the Army holds him responsible for whatever that unit does or does not do.

God gives men the headship of the home. He is given command, so to speak. He is the wife's leader. And as such, God holds him responsible for what happens and what does not happen in that home. God will not look to his wife for the answers why their children were not raised properly. He will ask their father. And it does not matter if that father is not there. I have seen captains releaved of command for actions of their units when they werent even around. One was releaved for actions of his unit while he was on vacation with his wife.

Do you see now? Husbands have an even higher stake in the marriage, and the upbringing of those kids. Ladies, you are NOT held responsible by God for what your husband does or doesnt do. But your husband sure is held responsible for what you do.

Anyway, a short blurb there. I am finishing up the first of three sections for the women on reverencing your husband.

Oh, and here are the three sections. Wanted to list them like I did for the guys.

Wives (Respect your husbands)
1. Submitting to your husband
2. Seducing your husband
3. Surrendering to your husband

" Most women want a little everyday from their man, whether it be attention or pasturing or whatever…rather than two or three biggies a year."

Well ... duh ... this seems soooo obvious to the females here ... are you saying this is big news for the males?

Really? hmmmmmmmmm

Pep (thinking, reading, waiting)

Unfortunately, the answer is YES, Pep. Why? Because men are built differently. Example?

I read once about a woman that had figured men out. She had decided to find a way where SF wasnt such a battle between her and and her husband. She wanted it 1-2 times a week...she said he seemed like he wanted a wife who could go one to two times a day (what's wrong with that?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. So, she made a deal with her husband.

She would make sure that they got together at least three times a week, barring illnesses and the like. That would be a little more than she needed, but a little less than he needed. In return...once every three months, the would block out a weekend.

It started on a Friday night at 8pm. It ended at Sunday night at 8pm. The kids went to her mother's. And here was what she proposed. Her husband could have any kind of sex with her, anywhere, anytime...and as many times as he wanted over that weekend. She would be available to and for him. She would not say no. No matter what time it was, or what his request was. But, once he had his fill...once he could go no further and did not desire any more, then he was hers for the rest of the weekend to do what she wanted, like going shopping or whatever. She said usually, he was done by early evening Saturday. And the rest of the weekend, he followed her around like a puppy dog with a smile on his face. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now, for a man...that two day deal was worth more than all of the other times put together! Now, I am not saying that we just want it 4 times a year. What I am saying is that on those 4 weekends a year, she made them extra-special and was totally available and undistracted to and for him.

Huge!! But what I have found is, while the big weekend cruises or going out to dinner or parties or shopping or whatever are great for women, what registers with you all a lot more is when us men rack up countless hours just sitting with you on the couch rubbing your feet while watching TV. Or sitting at the kitchen table over breakfast, as you tell the gossip of the day.

We like the regular stuff...but we LOVE the big events. Women seem to like the big events...BUT love the regular attention.

I admire that woman.She even said "Hey, look...not like the weekend sucked for me. I mean, I got something out of the SF also!!" She had realized the differences between them on SF, and came up with a great compromise. Wanna bet on how much conflict there is in that house over sex anymore? I am betting not much!!

In His arms.

Am I the only one who finds this post full of over simplified generalizations...

frought with stereo-typical examples

and overall disrepect/doom and gloom over the existance for both a man and womans ability to have a loving healthy marriage in Gods eye....

one example...in my ever so humble opinion....


As I heard in this study...you know, before Jesus met you, He was doing fine. Before He came down to Earth, He was living large. He never knew pain, He never knew betrayal. Until He met me, He was living the perfect life.


I think God knew pain the moment evil Eve gave Adam the apple....

I think HE found joy while on earth....
and pain,

like all of us....

is it really just me??

ARK^^

Hay Ark...

You made my point exactly. Ever since Jesus met man, ever since Eve and Adam did what they did, Jesus has known pain. Before that, the eternity before that, there was no such thing as pain.

Of course God experienced pain with us from the beginning, and He knew He would when He spun this whole thing into creation. He knew that if you are going to have love, as well as free will...then there is going to be pain. unavoidable. it is two sides of the coin.

The point to the admitted generalization is that Jesus had a choice a long, long time ago. He might not have created us, and saved Himself pain. He might not have come down and died for us, and saved us a lot of pain. He could have just let us have what we deserve, instead of Hm taking our consequences.

And, we as men must love our wives like Jesus has loved us. And that means not giving them what they necessarily deserve. Sure, we might not have had the pain that has come, and is most certainly to come. But remember, pain is one side of the coin. There was a country song a few years ago that spoke to this, that if I had not met you, even though it ended, then I would have missed the dance.

So again, in order to love like Jesus, we have to love in spite of the pain, betrayal. We have to die to ourselves and die for our wives. Anything less, is not loving our wives like Jesus loves us. And if we are not doing that...then we are in direct violation of a God0given command. And we should not expect a marriage and blessings as we had hoped.

In His arms.

His kind of love is what is called Agape in the Bible. it is ithe kind of love that asks for nothing from the recipient.

in other words unconditional love....yes?
except that here on earth love is beyond a feeling word and is an action word....

so God loves each individual fiercely unconditionally and each hold great value to Him...
I agree with that....

and it is because he values each of us that God would not want us to love unconditionally in action to the point that it litterally destroys us....

that the husband that loves his wife unconditionally should NOT do so in action at all cost...ie life...

so if a husband is married to someone who is a drug addict and destroying the life of children...or who is an infidel and putting at risk the life of their spouse...ie aides, etc...

then it would appear that while the husband is free to maintain the unconditional love in feeling...they should not continue the unconditional love in ACTION...
to point of destroying their own life....

meaning that if I became some out of control unfaithful wife to Mr. Ark....he may be called by God to always hold on to love for me...God would not expect him to continue to sleep with me to the point of causing his own death...

I believe that God values the individual equally...
and does not value the man through his unconditional love in destructive actions...

Sure, it will hurt. Crosses hurt. Spikes in your hand hurt. Spikes in your feet hurt. Spears in your side hurt. No one is saying that loving your wife wont hurt.

why do you say this motarman?...I would say that there are plenty of marriages in which love is not a painful thing but a blessed thing.......that there are plenty of marriages in which either has yet to hurt the other in any way that is more than superficial petty silly things....
and that these marriages are blessed by God...

As I have listed above, sacrifice…true sacrifice…is a public event. It has to be seen, by your wife and by others. Sacrifice also means you must suffer. It is the nature of sacrifice. If you are not suffering, then it isn’t sacrifice yet. As I outlined above.

grandiose demonstrative sacrifices ?

Four women were trapped in the storm as baseball sized hail rained down. And that sized hail can kill you. Their husbands were underneath an overhang, and when they saw their wives trapped in the deluge, they bolted out from underneath and ran thru the hail to them.

thousands sacrifice their lives for strangers as well...we become who we are meant to be..children of God...by being who we should be...brothers to our brothers....

God can’t raise something or someone that hasn’t died yet. In order to have a Crown, you have to have a Cross. You must die.

are you saying that God wants each marriage to be visited by some horrible trajedy...that is his vision of marriage...

ARKIE^^ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God can’t raise something or someone that hasn’t died yet. In order to have a Crown, you have to have a Cross. You must die.

are you saying that God wants each marriage to be visited by some horrible trajedy...that is his vision of marriage...


Ark articulated my incomprehension here too. I started musing on this when FH sent me a magnificent post on Christian Husbandry over on recovery.

Must we as husbands suffer to be truly husbands ?

Was I not a worthy husband to my family until I had to wrest my wife , family and life back from the crack of doom ?

Am I now more worthy though I am left with self worth issues, great sadness and a forever degraded relationship with Squid ?

Was her affair and my near destruction a 'gift' from God to inspire my husbandry ?

I don't understand MM. Help me to understand.

She didn’t let you see all of that stuff…because she knew that you would have said then what you are saying now “I wouldn’t have married you if I knew all of this.” You didn’t see her without make-up, or with her hair undone. You didn’t see the nasty attributes she hid from you. You didn’t see the “Dark Side.”

yes all women are coniving manipulating little things aren't they....

oohh that phrase above makes me want weep...
what a lovely view of woman that paints...

superficial crap ...without makeup
without their hair done....
blecch

and woman KNOW their spouses would NOT have married them if they knew this about them....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'm gonna have to go find my dark side.....

You want her to talk to you different than she used to talk to you? You want her to relate to you differently than she used to relate to you?

So are you saying that God just dismisses the marriages in which people pretty much always talked nicely to one another...

where people pretty much all along related well to one another...

Your wife may be this big problem. But if she is brought daily into the realm of your touch, your kindness, your shepherding, your care…then she won’t mind winding up as a square watermelon.

Mr. Ark prefers corn to watermellon...if he wants to try to change me in to an ear of corn....is that OK...

ARK^^ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I do know that you ladies have more power than you know of. Oh sure, you know the sexual power you have over us to get what you want.

I hate this perpertual myth that sex is some tool to be used to get what you want...

I do not believe for a second that God's gift of human sexuality and all its wonder should be diminished to a power move to get what you want...

I don't believe that I have ever used sex to get anything except pleasure for myself and for my spouse....

nor do I believe that Gods design is for us to ever view it as thus....

As I said to the guys above, it is a risk to agape a woman that will take advatange of you and not do her part.

there's that evil view of women again out to destroy man any and every way they can....

Women were the crown of God's creation.
I thought they were the evil usurpers of men....needing to be changed in to square watermellon.....

arkie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So again, in order to love like Jesus, we have to love in spite of the pain, betrayal. We have to die to ourselves and die for our wives. Anything less, is not loving our wives like Jesus loves us. And if we are not doing that...then we are in direct violation of a God0given command. And we should not expect a marriage and blessings as we had hoped

so to be a good wife and have mr. ark be a good husband..I better get busy with causing him much pain and betrayal...
cause he may be in direct violation based on my devotion to God,
family and my hubby........

ARK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I read once about a woman that had figured men out. She had decided to find a way where SF wasnt such a battle between her and and her husband

she might have tried not battling with it..and just enjoying it...

Her husband could have any kind of sex with her, anywhere, anytime...and as many times as he wanted over that weekend.

yeah that's a healthy agreement......
leaves one wide open for consensual abuse....

What I am saying is that on those 4 weekends a year, she made them extra-special and was totally available and undistracted to and for him.

perhaps she could have done this ALL the time....
what's wrong with that?

arkie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dont be so absolute here. What about the husband that pushes his wife out of the way of an oncoming vehicle and he takes the hit? That was a loss of life for his wife?

No one said there shouldnt be boundaries. Jesus even has boundaries. "...no one gets to the Father except through Me." Judas betrayed Him. We all have. He died for even the ones who have and will reject Him. Does that mean that His blood will cover the unbeliever's sins? Absolutely not. Dying for that unbeliever is not the same thing as being run over by them. Dying is what I wrote somewhere i nthat study, where it is dying to self. I should always put my wife's needs ahead of anyone elses, even my children's. But let's use the drug scenario. is it loving of my wife to let her continue in that, to continue possible abuse of my children? No it is not. Is it loving of me to get my children out of that environment and to have my wife get help before resuming contact with them? Absolutely.

Agape is God's kind of love. We can NOT do it on our own. it is impossible for any human being to agape anyone. That is without Jesus.

I will go into this more with Bob Pure's questions.

God values man in spite of his destructive behaviors. That is what agape means.

First off, that is very doubtful. Sure, there are many marriages where there hasnt been infidelity. Or abuse. But to say there has been perfection (and just having silly spureficial stuff would be pretty close to perfection) is almost impossible. As a matter of fact, if that were true, that couple would have to be living by what God has laid out for the roles of husbands and wives. But the pain I talk about is not the pain of abuse or hurt that comes from the actions of a wife, necessarily. It is the pain that comes from sacrifice. Let me take something petty first. And this is an actual example. when my wife came back home to me and the kids, she was driving this broken down car (she had lost the expedition I had bought her because of repossession...I had put up boundaries and not paid it while she was in the A). When she walked back in, one of the first things I did was flip her the keys to my new car that I had just bought 6 months earlier. And I drove this broken down car for the next year until we bought one to replace it. Now, was that fair? Didnt I miss the CD player (the broken down one that I had now didnt have a CD player)? My wife had left in the affair, thus losing her Expedition. Why did I have to feel the pain of having to drive this piece of crap while my wife drove the nice new sedan? Agape. It is what Jesus told me to do. To put my wife ahead of me. To always put her needs, her desires ahead of my own. And any time you do that, you will have some kind of pain. Believe me, there were days I absolutely hated driving that car.

No. Not standing up saying "look at me." What is meant here is the kind of sacrifice that does not hide. Example? Well, let's say I had planned to play golf this coming weekend with the guys. But I found our about something my wife really wanted to go do or see with me. So, I make the decision to cancel the golf game and to go for her, putting her needs and desires ahead of mine. But I tell my friends that I am cancelling because of some other reason (sick, broken faucet, whatever). I do this because I dont want them to think that I dropped them because I wanted to take care of my wife's needs. No. Instead, my sacrifice has to be public. I tell the guys the truth...that my wife needs me, and I'll catch them next week. Simplistic example? sure, but I think you get the point.

No doubt. But that sacrificial love is what God calls a husband to do daily for his wife. In everything.

Of course not. As I said above, it means a husband must die to himself. If he wants changes in his wife, in his marriage, he must die to himself. He must put her first. His needs, his wants, his desires must be secondary to hers.

More soon.

So the only thung that a husband should find satisfation in is serving the caprice of his wife, even if it delivers him misery and frustration?
If placing our wives' wants above our own is holy and desirable, why then does God allow us to divorce cheating wives ? Should we not drive them to OMs house and wait to drive her home when she's finished as this is placing their desires over our own ?

I'm really struggling with this MM. I have, with RIFs help, started to adopt headship of my family and to serve my wife as God intends but I am struggling with the tenets you lay out in this thread.

help me understand please.

Thanks.

Hey Bob...sure, let's look at this because I think both you and Ark are looking at this from the wrong direction. I can answer all of the other questions Ark had and you had above right here.

Agape does not mean you drive her to the OM's house. Take it to another addiction...drugs. If my wife was a drug addict, her desires would be for more drugs. Now, you are asking if I should provide the drugs, or take her to her drug dealer. Now, how in the world is that loving?

Maybe I should have qualified things above. But, we need to understand that Jesus doesnt grant us all of our desires either. It is like in the Bible, it says if a believer asks, God will grant his request. Well, I know pretty much for sure that if I ask for a million dollars this morning, it isnt going to happen. Does that mean Christ doesnt agape me? Because he didnt grant me that desire? Of course not.

I gave you an example in my last post of agape, of putting my wife's needs ahead of mine. But if I were to buy her drugs, although she had a desire for them, I wouldnt be being loving by getting them for her and hurting her. Do you see?

You are your wife's head. You are to agape her, to put her ahead of your own needs, wants and desires. But in a loving way. Never in order to hurt or destroy. Sometimes that means you have to do things contrary to what she is asking for.

Have you read Hosea in the Bible? If not, read it. look at what Hosea gave up for his prostitute wife. For TEN years!! And then, when she was finally broken down and couldnt run any more, in front of the entire town square, he went and bought her back. And brought her home. And as he did, he laid down the rules and boundaries of her return. Read it. And you will understand more of what I am talking about.

If anyone has read my threads from when this all first started for me, they will see that while I was deployed to Bosnia, I knew something wasnt right at home...but didnt know about the affair. But as I prayed, I kept getting the same message over and over again. "mortarman, stop worrying about your wife, get back to your first love (Jesus), and die for your wife." I have spent three years getting to understand what Jesus was trying to tell me there.

Sacrifice is not sacrifice that is thoughtless or pointless. It isnt debasing yourself or having no boundaries. It is putting your wife's greater good ahead of your own.

Is her continuing in the A her greater good? Of course not. And you need not support her in that. In my case, I stopped paying any of her bills after she moved out. She had to go to bankruptsy. But I alwats kept a watchful eye that she had enough to eat (sometimes the kids and I would buy some groceries and slip them into her car while she was at work). EVERY TIME she was sick, it wasnt the Om there at her apartment taking care of her...it was me. I would get a sitter for the kids, and then go there. One time while she was gone, she was so sick, that I thought she was going to have to be hospitalized. I took off work, and stayed at her apartment and fed her, bathed her, held her, etc. You think that wasnt painful? Here she was in this apartment she got so the OM and her could be together, and I was in there taking care of her. thoughts of what they had done there swirled thru my head. Many times, I left there in agony over it. But, my wife was sick...and she needed me. her need at that time had to be put ahead of my needs, and my pain. After she got better, did she stop seeing the OM? nope. Affair went on a little while longer. But what I had done made a lasting impression on her. And on the OM. And on others around me. Many called me a fool for so long. Why take that abuse? Let the OM take care of her when she is sick. But over time, as the people around me saw what I was doing, the sacrifices I was making (like retiring from the military...a job I loved), they began to stop calling me a fool. At first, they were just quiet and watched. And as they saw my wife return, they began to comment things like "I know what you are doing, and I so respect what you ar doing for your wife and kids." And now?? Well those same friends are mad at me because their wives are now on their cases...want to know why they dont love them like I love my wife.

Did my wife deserve ANY of that??? Absolutely not. She deserved the opposite. but grace is something different. grace is giving something to someone that they do not deserve, did not ask for...and were actively rebelling against.

Like I said, agape is putting your wife's needs, wants and desires ahead of your own. Putting her best interests ahead of your own. but that requires us husbands to die to ourselves.

Wives are not commanded to do this. Sure, they can do this...and it would be nice. but they are not commanded to do this.

One question above that I would like to address is why God does allow divorce. And He does, for certain reasons...such as adultery. He allows it, but never commands it. Remember, God in Malachi says that He hates divorce. Any divorce!! Even for adultery. He hates them.

someone said to me when I was contemplating divorce from my wife i nthe middle of the mess, that if I was waiting for God to tell me to divorce my wife, then I would be waiting a long time. Because God will never tell you to divorce your wife. Never.

As Jesus said, divorce was ALLOWED due to the hardness of our hearts. He realized that some people would not be able to get past what has happened. He also realized that the BS is a victim, and to hold that victim to a spouse that continues in adultery was too much many times. So, He allows divorce.

But divorce is the last resort. I am a beter man today for what I have gone thru. I rely on Christ more. I am a better husband and father. Not much gets me upset anymore. I dotn even think much about dying for my wife anymore, as it is beginnign to become a habit.

You know, Jesus washed the feet of His disciples i nthat upper room. even though He knew they would let Him down the next day. He even washed Judas' feet, the man He knew that was about to betray Him. Jesus was a servant. And rue leaders are servants.

I hope this has helped. Please keep asking questions and we can walk thru this together. This kind of love is so antithetical to what we humans are used to or know. It is God's kind of love.

In His arms

Mortarman, I just want to interrupt to say – what a wonderful thread! Thanks for sharing. Like some other ladies here, I also wait in anticipation to hear what you further have to say about the wife’s roles! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I noticed you mentioned Hosea in the Bible… Have you ever read the book ”Redeemed through love” (or ”Redeeming love”) by the American author Francine Rivers? It’s an absolute fantastic book with a very deep and touching story, but also very painful and heartbreaking to read... The story in this book is based on the chapter Hosea in the Bible and the author has really done a fantastic job with the creating of that book... A friend borrowed the book to me and now I find myself forwarding the book to everyone else (with my friend's permission of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)!

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet,

Thanks. I am actively working on the women's part...should start seeing it tomorrow.

I have not heard of that book, but I will get it. thanks for the heads up!!

In His arms.

ARK said....
?...I would say that there are plenty of marriages in which love is not a painful thing but a blessed thing.......that there are plenty of marriages in which either has yet to hurt the other in any way that is more than superficial petty silly things....
and that these marriages are blessed by God...

Mortarman replied...

First off, that is very doubtful. Sure, there are many marriages where there hasnt been infidelity. Or abuse. But to say there has been perfection (and just having silly spureficial stuff would be pretty close to perfection) is almost impossible. As a matter of fact, if that were true, that couple would have to be living by what God has laid out for the roles of husbands and wives. But the pain I talk about is not the pain of abuse or hurt that comes from the actions of a wife, necessarily. It is the pain that comes from sacrifice.

First off, that is very doubtful.

well how can it be doubtful if that is the role and plan of God and marriage..
how can you list all of these attributes and then deny the reality of it coming to fruition....

isn't that the exact goal that God sets the bar at..
why deny that can exist...which does not mean that the existiance of the goal is perfection...it is a continual work in progress...

and just having silly spureficial stuff would be pretty close to perfection) is almost impossible. As a matter of fact, if that were true, that couple would have to be living by what God has laid out for the roles of husbands and wives.

Is that not goal and means to the end of this whole series ?


But I tell my friends that I am cancelling because of some other reason (sick, broken faucet, whatever). I do this because I dont want them to think that I dropped them because I wanted to take care of my wife's needs. No. Instead, my sacrifice has to be public. I tell the guys the truth...that my wife needs me, and I'll catch them next week. Simplistic example? sure, but I think you get the point.

sounds elementary to me...tell them the truth....
uphold the marriage in honor.
be proud that you want to spend the day with your wife...

your example sounds like you don't WANT to be with your wife and would RATHER be golfing...
some spouses would RATHER be with their spouse than be golfing....


ARK^^

I am so enjoying this thread Mortarman, I sure wish I didn't have to wait till tomorrow for the woman's side hehehe.

-ds

I didn't Ark. I said that is the plan. That apart from operating in a marriage as God has designed it, that it is impossible to find this. Those that do follow God and what He has presented to us as the ideal is how we get there. Just look at what I posted..."As a matter of fact, if that were true, that couple would have to be living by what God has laid out for the roles of husbands and wives." See, I did say that those that were living by what God has commanded us to do have the hope of finding this kind of relationship.

I did not deny it...I actually affirmed it. And also said that in ourselves, it is an impossible goal. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loves the church. We do not have the power to do that, apart from Christ. But I can do all things thru Christ Jesus who strengthens me. Again Ark...please read what I have wrote, as I suspect that you are looking at it from a direction that I did not intend.

Sounds elementary to you...okay. But too many, especially men, this is not elementary. God did not put these commands in the Bible because they were unnecessary. What you as a woman believe is elementary may be somethig entirely different to a man. I know I am being very general here, but work with me a second. You know the old saying about men and directions? There is some truth to that. I have yet to meet a woman that will not stop to ask directions if she needs to. But most of us men have spent countless times lost because we refuse to get those directions. Why? Because we are hard headed (dont answer that Pep!!)? it has to do with the way we are built. We were made to be the leader, and a misguided supposition to that is that asking directions is not leading. Of course, once we learn that is not true...we get lost a lot less.

There are differences between men and women. Some things you gals do (and we will get into them in the women's part) seem to be no-duh to us guys. But they are major problems for you. Why? Because you are women and that is how you are built. We are different. God recognizes that and gives us instructions in how to deal with those differences.

Sure, the husband should want to be with his wife. But, let's say I have Super Bowl tickets. Big event. All the guys are going. Gonna be fun. My wife doesnt like footbal, so doesnt want to go. Two days before the Super Bowl, she has a major problem at work. she needs to get it fixed and it will take several days to do so. She needs my help.

Now, the no-duh thing to do is to tell the guys to sell my ticket and help my wife. And a good husband will do that. But to think that didnt hurt, that I wasnt upset by that is folly. where did I WANT to be at that moment? Of course...holding a beer and peanuts on the fifty yard line. But I sacrificed for the need of my wife.

This is the pain I speak of. The disappointments. We as husbands must ALWAYS put the well being of our wives ahead of us. And by the way...the wife has no such role...no such commandments. she is not commanded to love, as you will see in the next section. How wives meet the ENs outlined by Dr. Harly is entirely different then how we meet our wives' needs.

Again, Ark...I think you are misreading what I am saying. Of course, wives give things up all the time for their husbands. And that is disappointing too. But wives are not commanded to do so by God out of love...they are commanded to do so for a different set of reasons as you will see.

My two boys have learned something of this in my house. When we eat, my wife, my MIL and my daughter get served before the guys do. Last piece of cake? Gals get first dibs. They used to look at me like "Why does our sister get treated differently than us?" Answer. Because she is different than you. They are learning valuable lessons on how different men and women are, and what God expects. Thus, I suspect that one dy, they will treat their wives with the love that God expects. And my daughter? I hope and pray she finds a man that she marries that will love her in the same way...and treat her as she is supposed to e treated.

In His arms.

Almost done folks. Hang tight. You will start seeing the wife portion of this very soon!!

Hmmm. Too busy at work to give this the attention that it deserves. But it is an amazing dialog. - NCW

Sorry to keep you gals waiting...work got crazy the last two days!! But I promise that at least the first of the three will be up tonight!!

In His arms.

motarman..
I actually do keep reading this...and while I am not in disargreement with what you said..I am having a hard time connecting the dots of how one gets to such a marriage...
or even the coninueal work in progress..

my misunderstanding is that so much of this based on the necessity of pre-existing negative qualities/behaviors to have to exist in two people prior to getting married...and then be rectified post speaking of the vows....

while i understand the sanctifying as in setting apart...
I don't understand the example of changing a wife...as the way to sanctify her...

God not only wants us to be our wives’ savior, He wants us to be Her sanctifier. The word sanctification is one of those big words that basically means “to set apart as unique or special.” In the Bible many times, God took the vilest things and sanctified them for His own use. When a man sanctifies a woman, he sets her apart from her past.

Now, to express this point again…you cannot become a sanctifier until you become a savior. And saviors die! If you want to change your wife, if she is not submitting to you, if she is not living up to her side of the bargain…and you have seen all of your actions and endeavors to sanctify or change her go for naught…maybe it is because you are trying to be a sanctifier before being a savior. The goal of sanctification is to change something from what it is into what it ought to be. But until we men are ready to die (in other words…die to ourselves), then don’t expect our efforts to bring about change that works.

so for a husband to sanctify his wife he must change her???

he must ?? the husband??
and she MUST NEED changing????

and mortarman know that some of the global examples are unjust and present quit a negative of veiw women...be these your opinions or the people that taught this class drive me crazy...

all married woman must be changed..
must need changed
to recieve Gods blessings

these are extremely negative view of women and men....

They thought they were marrying this quiet person…she hasn’t stopped talking yet

He thought he was marrying a submissive woman…she started bossing him around right after the wedding.

sheesh do you really believe that men are that easily duped..

We men had a perspective on what we thought we were getting into and who we were getting into it with…only to be highly disappointed. Many men say “She’s changed.” Actually, what has happened is that she changed back. Back to what she was before she put on her best face for you while you were dating.

this is sooo degrading and stupifying women....as if we all convive and pretend while dating...then turn on men at the honey moon...in to some type slithering snake out to boss them....

and if this whole theory is based on that negative view of women as a reality...
that's what I don't understand and don't agree with...

so know I am not argueing with you to just argue...I just think this is presented with broad stereotypes..

and that while I may agree with premise of Gods desires...the examples of how this is to occur totally disregard people as having much worth... and turn both sexes in clodd-hopping snakey vile individuals....

I AM reading this
over and over and over...

ARK^^

I see what you are saying Ark, and I see the stereotypes, but I also read more into it. I do believe that after women and men get married, many do settle in, and things change...not that women change and become these snakes, but that you get comfortable, take things for granted, a new side comes out that perhaps the husband didn't expect?

I also truely believe that MANY women think with thier hearts and not with thier heads, just like MANY men think with their heads and not with their hearts, and I see these teachings by MM as working into those catagories.

I think what MM is trying to say is alot like what I am learning in my Celebrating Recovery.

here is a note of what I learned last night then I will get to my point lol

Insanty - Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time.

Sanity - Wholeness of mind and making decisions based on truth.

When a Christian doesn't put their faith and trust in God first, and tries to solve their problems on their own - it leads to insanity. Chaos will follow. A Christian must trust God's plans, and let God help them solve the problems. God must come first.

What I see MM teaching is that men might be trying to be the Sanctifier first, before being his wife's savior first. In trying to be the sanctifier - he is trying to save his wife, "sanctify" her, change her, but he is doing so without being the savior first - the savior who puts unconditional love oh nis wife, the savior who would die for his wife. In doing that - he gets no result - you cannot change someone.

But in being the savior first- loving your wife for all her faults, not expecting her to change, then the sanctifier, changes will come on their own - maybe in your own ability to change and except your wife, as it was how God designed men and women.

This is what I am reading from it.

-ds

In trying to be the sanctifier - he is trying to save his wife, "sanctify" her, change her, but he is doing so without being the savior first - the savior who puts unconditional love oh nis wife, the savior who would die for his wife. In doing that - he gets no result - you cannot change someone.

But in being the savior first, then the sanctifier, changes will come on their own, as it was how God designed men and women.



so therefor God designed all women to need to be changed...

ARK

lol I see your point definately...

God designed us all to NOT be perfect. And God expects us all to change for Him. To walk in his ways, but he knows that that is tough for us - we are only Human.

I did re-edit my post before you posted as I too caught that I wrote that not in the best way. Except I spelt accept - except - I meant to say accept your wife....

I changed it to show that the change may come in the man - not the woman, as he is being the sanctifier - I think it depends on the couple, and who the man and woman are - on who needs to change the most to walk in God's ways.

We all have things we need to change. Not just us women <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MM

I remember starting a thread a lot like this one ... the subject was my feelings about what I had learned from the "Wild At Heart" book...

and this is what happened ...

the concepts that were so clear and meaningful to me (while I was reading the book) were very VERY VERY hard to convey to someone who had never read the book.

The term "hero" was taken the wrong way from the book's intented meaning (for example) ... I think, in part, because the literal meaning of certain words are cast aside and instead used to convey a spiritual message .... which is very VERY hard to communicate.

And, the premise is that there is a definite male/female separation of needs and duties which goes against the tide of current cultural thinking that men and women are interchangeable.

Anywho ... keep plugginh along.... this is interesting on many levels.

Pep

MM: Fascinating stuff. Even the misunderstandings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading some similar stuff myself lately. Pepperband: I've been reading "Captivating" by John Eldredge and his wife Stasi. Very good, and I believe it covers a lot of the same ground as [email]W@H[/email], (and mortarman's postings, for that matter) but you're right. Some of the terminology is very specific and has a very different implied meaning than the usual everyday conversation meaning.

Especially key is that although "Adam" and "Eve" are called to reflect certain different aspects of the image of God to each other, they have to first go to God to get those corresponding needs met. For example, even though a husband is called to "save, sanctify and satisfy" his wife in Christ's place in the marriage, that doesn't generally work well until the wife has first gone to the Source--Christ himself--for those needs.

A wife provides certain needs to her husband as well as a reflection that she too, is made in the image of God (Gen 1:7) but again, he needs to go to God to get them met first.

Of course, that's JMO.

Well, thanks for keeping reading Ark! I will answer your questions specifically below. but this paragraph kind of sums it up, so let me give you a summary answer.

First off, all of us need to change. All of us. All of us need to be sanctified. We do not realize the end of that sanctification, those changes...until we reach Heaven. there is always more to change, more to fix. Always...with everyone! Salvation was a one time act, by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Sanctification is a lifetime process. Now, with that...let me answer your questions.

Ah...yes, and no. First off, sanctification is changing someone. From who they are to who they ought to be. And guess what? We will all fall short until we reach heaven. So, yes...sanctification of the wife involves her changing. God does much of this through a hierarchy. He changes all of us thru Jesus. Jesus sanctifies the husband in the family. The husband sanctifies the wife. This is a Biblical principle, one that God uses to accomplish His program, which is the ongoingness of the family.

Now, the "no." No, the husband is not repsonsible for changing his wife. He is responsible for doing the things that God tells Him to do that will bring about change in his wife. If he does that, then the responsibility for change rests on Christ. This was the HARDEST thing for me to realize i nthis mess of the A and my wife. I thought I was responsible for her changing, thus when it wasnt happening, it hit me hard. I couldnt make her change!!

But that wasnt my job. My job was to lead. To be her sanctifier, as I put in the study above, and nourish/cherish the changes that needed to be made. Not to issue orders or condemn wrong actions. but just to lovingly tell her the truth, and to provide as I listed i nthe study. And then...God takes over from there in taking what the husband has done, and changing his wife for the better.

Actually, the biggest job of sanctification as I outlined from the study is the role that the husband fills as pastor of his home. Go back and read that part. it is thru his spiritual leadership, that change comes to his wife. Many times ,tha tchange is blocked because the husband has refused to lead, to be the pastor in his home.


You seem to think I have a negative view of women. I do not. But what I have is a realistic view of mankind, where we are at and where we are going. We cannot achieve perfection until we reach Heaven. Until then, we must all change daily. There is not such thing as the PERFECT marriage. Never has been...never will be. What we aspire to cannot be reached. But what we do is move closer to it everyday thru change.

Now, it isnt just the wife that needs changing. The husband has to also. But the husband has a sanctifier...and that is Jesus. The husband is the head of the wife. Christ is the head of the husband. And God is the Head of Jesus. There is a heirarchy.

I just answered this above. Yes, she needs changing. So does the husband. but the wife is not responsible for the husband's changes. The husband is held by God to be responsible for the wife's though.

I do not care how mankind perverts the word of God. That is irrelevent. If they would do it God's way, this would not be happening.

All people MUST be changed...must be sanctified.And yes, the closer we come to God, the more sanctification (change), the more blessings. This is a very real, Biblical principle.


Not negative. Realistic. And Biblical. Remember, the Bible says that we are only worthy of destruction due to who we are and what we have done to God. And while negative, God says He loves us enough not to leave us there. Thus the process of sanctification...the process of change. For all men and women that will accept God's stewardship.

Sometimes. This was a generalization. Didnt mean to be negative. But this does hold true to varying extents in every marriage. You get in and then a few years later, realize it isnt what you thought it would be. The negatives (and everyone has them) that you glossed over while dating, are now irritants. Maybe not huge ones, but they are there. Again, I am not saying that every marriage is a battleground. What I am saying is that what happens while dating and the early part of the marriage is not the reality that will be in place later on. And it is at the point of realization of this reality that a marriage reaches a point where changes are made, or they begin to fall away. Again, even in a good marriage, there are problems. Not a negative view...just a true one.

Not degrading for women!! Look, the wives have the same complaint. When we dated each other, we didnt let it all hang out. We didnt show them all of the negatives. Why would we? We are trying to win that person over, to make a lifelong commitment to us. So, we accentuate the positives and try to cover over the negatives. That is a simple fact. If we understood this before marriage, we would have realized to be ready for the fact that once married, we will find out the rest of the story. Actually, we will spend a lifetime finding out the rest of the story. I heard fro ma couple that was married for 35 years that said that everyday, they still learn smething new about their partner.

Again, Ark...please do not take this so negatively. This battle we are talking about is a curse, as given to us in Genesis. And I will talk more about it in the women's section. Some are better at it than others. But better at it isnt perfection. We all have work to do. Which is the point of what I was saying. And with that work, God outlines exactly how to do that. With the husband, he must sanctifier her as outlined in the study above. The wife brings about change in a different way, as you will see.

Again, I covered this above. Not a negative view of women. A realistic view of BOTH men and women.

Oh, for sure. I will agree with that. But those stereotypes are based on something. Something real. mean and women are different. But we both share the same fallen state. To be sanctified, to be changed for the better, is a different process for men than it is for women. And vice versa. Actually, I wish that I had the wife's section out already because you will see that I am not beating up on women or singling them out.

Oh. no-no-no! Not worthless. Great worth!! Just like a diamond in the rough. But you dont leave the diamond there. You cut it, polish it. Make it what it was meant to be. Make it priceless. That is the process of sanctification for both men and women. And it is a life long process. Not a negative view, Ark. A positive view! One that says "here is this diamond that I just pulled out of the ground. A little dirty, got a few imperfections attached to it. But a diamond nonetheless. What I want to do is take it and make it more than it is now. It may take me hours or days to do so, and if the diamond could "feel," it would no doubt be painful sometimes. But in the end, it becomes what the diamond owner saw in it when he first picked it up.

God sees in us, not who we are...but who we can be if we are cut and polished correctly. Now that process doesnt take hours or days like a diamond. It takes a lifetime to get it right. All this study has shown in the section on sanctification is that God has a way of polishing diamonds. This is His method. And He holds those diamonds to great value. How much value?

Enough that the God of this Universe sent His only Son to die for those "diamonds." Now, how priceless are we?

In His arms

DS...well said!

All men and women need changing. For the state we were in, that we are in...is unacceptable to God.

DS, you hit exactly on it. And how the husband is changed? I will cover that in the wife's section tonight.

Pep, true!!! That is why I dont mind answering the questions, as I know it is hard to pick up sometimes thru the black and white of reading, some of the concepts that are presented i nthe full study...or in person.

Nicely said Java.

I am not saying people don't need to change in the eyes of God and in their journey on this earth struggling to be like Him..

I am not saying that men and women aren't different or promoting some ultra NOW nutty idealism that woman are equal...

I am struggling with examples that are broad and negatively stereo typical

I am struggling to see the advocating for the children who are now married themselves that came from parents that were well grounded in these principles...and therefor their own struggles are diminished...and for confirmation of God's blessing...or just warnings that something really bad must happen for the marriage to have value in God's eyes..

I am struggling to see the positive spin for marriages...for those that get married and six months down the road found the marriage to be even better they had imagined without being accused of be a liar and toting they have a perfect marriage...

I am struggling to see the benefits of raising your children to seek healthy God loving marriages if we approach this subject that so few and little even come close to glorifying God in their marriage...and that we should just assumes our children will have to suffer ...so what's the point...

good marriages have very little positive roles and value in our society...
for even when they do exist they are placed under much scrutiny and negativey....and viewed with much suspicion...

I really am starting to believe this...

ARK




I'ma
gonna haul out on this one...
I apologize for my posts...I should have just stayed quiet...
and now I will so as not to interfere with mortarmans post...

ARK^^

ark^^: Good points, all. I know a woman who was raised in a Godly home, and she and her husband actually, seriously, set about from the beginning to have a Godly marriage. They are a great example. They got it right from the start. But I do think that the vast majority of marriages don't have that benefit, and so they have to start where they are.

I'm reading MM's stuff here from the perspective of "it's never too late to start working towards a Godly marriage." With the clearly implied hope that Clark and I will achieve a Godly marriage, and hey, we're young, maybe live 50 or 60 years in that marriage, providing that exact good example you are talking about to our kids and other young 'uns.

Right Java!! Ark, dont go away. Your questions are relevent.

As Java said, it isnt that every marriage is bad. If a husband and wife "get it," and do it right...the point to all of this is that they wont have to go through most of what all of us have. For the rest of us, as java noted, it isnt too late to start!!

Look, if my wife were perfect, I wouldnt see the need for God in my marriage, would I? If I were perfect, then my wife wouldnt need to have Christ in our marriage either. Our need for Him comes when our partner let's us down or isnt up to snuff. And ALL marriages have this to varying degrees.

The sterotypes, while admittedly generalized, have merit in EVERY marriage. There are things that are uniquely feminine, uniquely a woman. And every man has had those times where we are frustrated, or just a little perplexed, at some of those things. Understanding how a woman thinks, how she feels, what motivates her as a woman...is key to understanding our roles as a husband. Same goes for a wife.

Not every woman is as bad as all that. But every woman has attributes that a man must learn to understand. Just like in that study above, I posted about men not listening, and wanting to jump in and solve a problem for them. That is a GREAT example of the differences. We men dont need to hear all of that. We hear the problem and go solve it. Women are a little different from that. While wanting to solve the problem, they want to be able to express. Women dont understand why we dont get that. Well, duuuhhhhh...we are men! Men dont understand why women need all of that. Well, ddduuuhhhh...they are women. Two different beings. And not just with the plumbing.

Ark, you are correct in what you are saying. Our goal is to have that kind of marriage that follows what God has laid down and is an example to our children. it is then that we get that so-called perfect marriage. But even in that marriage, change still needs to take place. Growth, learning, understanding. Sanctification.

And in that sanctification, God has decided that the wife will be sanctified through her husband. So, the changes that God thinks my wife needs, if I am listening to Jesus and I have died for her (a savior), He will let me know what they are and how I am to be involved in helping those changes to come about. But if I do not cooperate, I do not listen...then when those changes dont happen...God holds me responsible!! If I follow His lead, then He takes care of the rest.

As you will see, the wife's role in providing for change in the husband is much different. She is not responsible for that change. But she can be responsible for blocking that change, as you will see in the next three sections.

One note for everyone here...this relationship that God talks about only applies between a husband and a wife. The husband is the head of the wife. The guy down the street isnt. The guy at work that works for you ladies isnt. You are equal to them in every way. But in the family, while you are equal to your husband and are a partner, God has set up a chain of command, as you will see.

Dont run away Ark!! I think you get it. Just dont see this as all negative. As Java said, some of this is for those that have marriages that 180 degrees opposite of what God requires. Some are following His path already, and can use this to make sure that they continue to do so!!

In His arms.

Mortarman,

What do you do for a living? lol

You have wisdom like my father does. I e-mailed him your teachings on the man's role and this was his responce - as I know he loves to hear everyone's teachings on Christ.

"Hi darling daughter:

Over the last two days, I've read what you sent me and would say that I have little argument with it, other than the calling onesself a wife's savior. That makes me uncomfortable. In all things we are to die to self but that hardly make's me or you a savior, however it does make us a leaders by example. Other than that, what he said was truth. Reading expostions such as these are good for me as it reminds me of my weeknesses. I then spend various amounts of time meditating about it, but not too long.

If I start focusing on the rules, I will then try to follow the "rules" and end up trying to become more Christ-like as a rule keeper within my own strength and ending up captive to the old me rather living life with freedom in Christ.

When I learn or re-visit truth, my first action is to pray that the God will open my heart to receive it, that He will teach me to listen to Him when guides me and then to get on with my life with the expectation that the preceding will happen. When I fail as I always do in just about every area, God brings to mind what I learned before or shows me through many different means new or expanded truth, I repent and on we go together again.

As I mature in Godly living, the good things that God does through me have started to out number the worldy good things that are of no eternal value and the just plain bad things.

I'm sure you already knew all of the above, but you know I like to hear myself talk anyway.

I love you.

Dad"

Your Dad is a very wise man! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Submitting to your husband...(1 Peter 3:1-6)

“In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any {of them} are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. Your adornment must not be {merely} external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but {let it be} the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.”

A story was told about two women that had escaped from prison. After they had gotten outside the fence, the guards found out and they took off in hot pursuit. As the guards and the dogs closed in on them, the first woman decides to climb up a tree and hide. The second woman, seeing, what she had done, decides to climb up a different tree.

When the guards arrived, the dogs came to the tree with the first woman and began barking loudly. In a panic, the first woman decided to try to throw off the dogs by making a sound like a bird…a cooing sound. “Coo, coo.” At the bottom of the tree, the guard pulled back on the leash and said “let’s go, there’s nothing but a dumb bird up there. Once they left the first woman, they came upon the tree that the second woman was in and began to bark wildly again. The second woman, who had heard what the first woman done, asked herself “What sound should I make?” And then it came to her, and she let out a loud “Moo, moo.”

Cows don’t live in trees!! You see, when you are confused about your role, you wind up making the wrong noise at the wrong time in the wrong place. A lot of women are making a lot of noise. Complaining about their husbands…complaining about what is wrong with their man. When they have forsaken and neglected their Biblical roles. They’re “mooing” when they ought to be “cooing.”

In Ephesians 5:33, we saw in the early part of this study, the roles defined for husbands and wives:

“Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must {see to it} that she respects her husband.”

A man is commanded to love his wife, even when he doesn’t like her. And a wife is commanded to respect her husband, even if she doesn’t like him. Many women are learning their role in the home from the wrong people. Too much TV…and too many girlfriends. They are picking up their data from everybody but God.

Many of our ladies were raised in homes where there was no man, or raised in a matriarchal home where there mother was in charge and think that this is how their home is supposed to be. So because their momma ran their home, they think they should be running this one.

A woman is to respect her husband. Many men are bad husbands because they are married to bad women. Women that are operating far outside of God’s standard. Which reminds me of the true story of Winston Churchill and Lady Aster, who both served in Parliament together. Both hated each other. One day Lady Aster said to Churchill, “If I was your wife, I would put arsenic in your tea.” Winston Churchill responded, “And if I was your husband, I’d drink it!”

Now before some of you get into this and say that this is again a negative view of women, I want to again pose that this study will discover all marriages. Of course, if your marriage is following the Lord, then many of these problems do not apply to you because you are heeding God’s standards.

God commands a woman to reverence her husband. The concept of reverence is to hold in high esteem…to awe. To elevate. You see ladies, men don’t NEED your love. They want your love, and they will receive your love. But that isn’t what they need. While you like hearing “I love you,” we like hearing “I respect you.” Without respect, men shrivel up and die. In fact, it is our greatest need and highest motivator to do a better job caring for you.

Let’s make this clear…respect is NOT optional, just like love is not optional for the husband. A husband is supposed to love his wife, even if he isn’t into it. Because it is an act of the will. Respect is an act of the will, as you will see.

That raises the question: “God wants me to respect my husband…how do I do that?”

1 Peter 3:1-2, gives the first way that you respect your husband. “In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any {of them} are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.”

The first way that a wife reverences her husband is through her submission. Now, some of you are ready to close this screen down right now because this word is a hated word. And the reason it is hated is because its meaning is not understood, or been misused. Submission isn’t a bad word…but when bad people take a good word and make it bad, then it becomes bad.

Many groups like NOW protest that this word makes women second class citizens. But the President of NOW expects the VP of NOW to submit to her. She has no problem with her VP submitting to her!

If you are at work ladies, and you have people working for you…and then they don’t submit to them…you go off! Because you are the one in charge. You see, the word is only bad in an arena we want it to be in. It’s God’s word, so it cannot be bad.

It is from a Greek word meaning to line up underneath. And it is a voluntary word, which means that you submit by choice.

The best way to illustrate this word submit is with a Yield sign. If you come to an intersection, and you have a yield sign…and then you insist “I don’t have to yield, I got here first.” Then you set yourself for a major collision. Because if another car has the right-of-way, and you refuse to yield…then your rebellion will lead to a major collision.

We are having major collisions in our homes because of women who refuse to submit. Now I know what some of you are saying: “I’m smarter than my husband, I’m more educated than my husband, I make more money than my husband, I have more common sense than my husband. I cant submit to him!”

Well, let’s suppose a tractor trailer was coming up the onramp to the highway and had the yield sign. And on the interstate was a VW Bug. Now, the tractor trailer has more stuff…it is bigger than the VW. But the VW has the right-of-way. Can the 18 wheeler say “Because I have more than you have, you must stop on the highway and let me on?” No. If there is an accident, it will be the 18 wheeler ticketed because even though it has more stuff, it is operating illegitimately.

Submission has nothing with how much you bring to the table. It has nothing to do with your education, or money. It has to do with God’s ordained roles. To submit is to recognize that God has given the role of the wife in the marriage the yield sign.

Now, I know what you are thinking: “That’s not fair.” So let me also add that the husband must also yield. The Bible says that the husband is under Christ, so the husband has to yield also. Everybody has to yield.

Submission has to do with FUNCTION, not BEING. It has nothing to do with your internal value or essence. It does not signify weakness, inferiority or passivity. How could it be if it is the Word of God?

The woman in Proverbs 31, the most glorious woman described in the Bible, is not some imbecilic water girl, waiting for instruction because she has no brain power, no skills. No, she has her MBA because it says she is negotiating with merchants from afar. She has her real estate license, because it says that she is buying and selling land. She manages the family checkbook, because it says that she writes out from her resources. She has her own ministry, because it says that she ministers to the poor. So this is a glorious woman. But the point of the text is that this woman’s husband has totally benefited by her submission to his leadership role.

So, submission doesn’t mean that you give up who you are. It does mean that after everything is on the table, and a decision has to be made…you have the Yield sign. It is your responsibility to yield to the final decision of your husband.

Now, you are saying “How often should I do this?” Ephesians 5:22-24 states “Wives, {be subject} to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself {being} the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives {ought to be} to their husbands in everything.” The Bible says that the wife is to subject herself to her husband in every classification of life. This is a broad principle in the Bible. It says that people are to submit to God, employees are to submit to employers, church members are to submit to pastors. In everything, with one exception.

What is the one exception? When the one that you are submitting to, overrules the one they should be submitting to. Every wife has an “out” when it comes to submission. That is if your husband is calling you to do something that is against the Lord and His word, then you do not have to submit. For it says that a wife ought to submit to her husband, AS TO THE LORD.

Submission has nothing to do with your equality. Every woman is equal to every man. He says this in verse 7: “You husbands in the same way, live with {your wives} in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.” A fellow means equal. And equal heir. Submission is not talking about equality, it is talking about doing a program.

The reason God creates hierarchy or a chain-of-command is because he is about doing a program. In this case, the program is the “ongoingness” of the home. And for a home to go well, like an army to go well, like a business to go well, like a government to go well…there must be a chain-of-command. And the woman is called to submit. The man is too, to Jesus Christ. But the woman is called to submit to her husband.

How do you do this? What is the manner of this submission? The Bible describes this relationship as the same as the relationship between a head and a body. Look at 1st Corinthians 11:3: “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” So whatever this submission thing is goes straight to the Godhead.

The Bible declares Jesus the Son is equal to His Father. But at the same time it declared that He was here to do God’s will. How can Jesus be equal to God on one hand, and submissive to God on the other? Easy. His equality has to do with His essence, His submission has to do with His function. His equality has to do with the fact that He has all the attributes of His Father, but His submission has to do with Him carrying out the program of salvation.

Wives, you are equal to your husbands in EVERY way. You were created in the image of God, you have the same grace of God bestowed upon you on salvation, you’re made of the same basic materials. But when it comes to the program of the family, you are to yield to his headship. The husband is the head of the wife.

So, let’s investigate that. What is the job of the head? The job of the head is to give guidance to the body. The job of the body is to follow the lead of the head. My fingers are typing now, not because of their own will. It is because my head is telling them to type. They are typing, not because they decided to go out and do their own thing…they are typing because my head said for them to do so.

If my head tells my fingers to stop, and my fingers keep typing…I need a doctor!! If I get up from the table and start walking, and my head says “Don’t walk anymore” and my body decides to walk anyway: “Head, you aren’t going to tell me what to do”…then I’m sick. When you see folks with involuntary body movements, what do you say? “What’s wrong with you? Something has to be wrong, because that isn’t normal.”

Here it is…a wife who refuses to yield to her husband is spiritually sick. Hold it now. If your body doesn’t respond to your head, do you need a doctor? When a wife does not yield to her husband, she needs a spiritual doctor because she is spiritually sick. She is not functioning in line with a body’s relationship with its head.

When a wife will not yield to her husband (unless he is leading her from Christ), God will not respond to the woman. Many of you ladies are not getting your prayers answered because of your refusal to submit. And God will never respond to rebellion.

Many a man here (which doesn’t excuse him from not taking his leadership role) is discouraged from taking his rightful leadership role because he is sleeping with the enemy. Everyday he comes home to a woman who has made up her mind that my job in life is to find out where you are taking me, and go the other way. “I am not going to follow you. I am not going to submit to you. I am not going to recognize you as my leader. I am not going to honor you as my leader. I am not going to do it. I aint having no man telling me what to do.”

It was because Eve refused to recognize Adam’s headship, that this whole world is messed up today. She started talking to snakes! Now, Adam is ultimately responsible because he yielded. But it was set up because Satan did the great reversal. He made Adam the wife, Eve the husband…and all hell broke loose. Ladies, if you are the head of your home, you have invited the Devil to take over your family. And the Devil has taken over many a family because the wife has refused to submit to the legitimate Biblical authority of their husband. And so, there is spiritual dysfunction.

Your husband is your head! Your body is to look to your head for direction, clarification and inspiration. Satan wants to create things in your life to keep you from doing that. He wants to bring people into your life that are going to tell you “Well honey…I wouldn’t take that from him…I’d leave him if I were you.”

Your submission has a lot to do with how much of God that you see in your home. Because God will not help, participate in, strengthen, or bless an environment of rebellion. A wife not submitted to her husband is not submitted to God. I don’t care how many church services you go to, how many prayer meetings you participate in. If you are in rebellion to your husband, God says…you are in rebellion to Me. Now you aren’t going to hear this from your girlfriends or from TV. But I have the Bible…what have they got?

Now, I understand the trauma you ladies are going thru right now. There are probably involuntary movements going on right now!! In fact, God understand the trauma…and He included it in the text.

It says “so that even if any {of them} are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.” Now let me tell you the trauma some of you ladies are going thru. You’re going thru “How do I follow a parked car?” You’re saying “You said in the earlier part of the study that my husband ought to be my savior, my satisfier, my sanctifier…he ought to show me time and attention…and he’s not doing it. If he’d start doing it, then I’d submit to it. As soon as he starts doing it, then I’ll start doing it. As soon as he starts obeying the word, then I’ll start obeying the word. I’m not responding to a man that isn’t treating me right.”

God understands your objections and He included it in the text. It says you are to submit to your husbands even if they are not doing right. Now don’t get me wrong, you aren’t submitting to the wrong that they are doing (wrongness NOT meaning leading you from God), you are submitting to them. Because, he is your head by position, even if he isn’t your head by practice. If he is leading you from Christ, you don’t have to go there. But in everything else, you have the yield sign.

Now, this raises the question…it says that even if they aren’t obeying the word, that they can be won without a word by the behavior of their wives. Now, I know you are getting nervous because you saw “without a word.” And you have never been without a word. He comes home everyday to a word. He wakes up to a word. And I know you are thinking “Is God telling me that I am not to open my mouth?”

No. Jesus was submitted to the Father, but regularly communicated with Him. The Father always knew where Jesus stood. The Father always knew how Jesus felt, even when Jesus was telling Him that He didn’t like what the Father was doing to Him. “Father, if there is any way, let this cup pass from me…I don’t like this…I don’t want this…I don’t prefer this…but no matter, let it be your will.”

Without a word does not mean that you are speechless. Without a word is a phrase that means “Don’t nag.” Don’t preach at him. It doesn’t mean you don’t communicate. It says that they may be changed (here is the woman’s way of changing the husband) or won without a word, without nagging…without negative, condescending, critical, “de-masculating” conversation. By the behavior of their wives.

Now, you have been nagging this man to change and he has not changed. So it should be obvious that your conversation isn’t the key here. It ought to be obvious to you that cussing him out isn’t going to change him, nagging him isn’t going to change him, being his mother isn’t going to change him. The Bible says you are wasting your time. God wants you to know that all of that energy has been lost. God says, can we change our approach here?

Let him see a wife that by her BEHAVIOR submits to him. Let him see what that looks like, because for many men, they have never seen that. But you say “No, no…he always has his way, I’m always submitted to him.” But verse 2 says it has to be respectful behavior! Not disrespectful behavior. Not behavior that says “I’m gonna do what you say, but I’m gonna make your life miserable while doing it. And you had better find another bedroom because you aren’t sleeping in here.” (Joke, gals…joke!!)

He’s not up to snuff, he’s weak, maybe he never had a man in his life to show him how to treat a woman. There may be a hundred different reasons but the problem is the same…he is a parked car and you are told by God to follow him.

Now let’s say you have a parked car in front of you. You have a car broken down in front of you and you have somewhere to be. So you start yelling and screaming and laying on the horn. Now after all of that fussing, that car has still not moved. Do you know what that car needs? That needs someone to come along and assist it with its movement.

I believe the Biblical term for this is “helpmate!”

Guess what the job of a helpmate is? To help. Too many women are hurt-mates, instead of helpmates. Because what you do is what everybody else does to your man: put him down, criticize him, complain about him, de-masculate him. And the very thing you are after, you are helping to destroy!

He is your head by position, even though he may be a failure in his practice. Some of you women give your bosses what you aren’t willing to give your husbands. Your boss says “Can you get me a cup of coffee?” And you say “Yes, Mr. Jones…right away Mr. Jones.” Your husband asks you to get him a cup of coffee, and you say “You had better get it yourself…do I look like a maid?” Your boss asks you to do something, you say “Yes, Mr. Stevens. Right away Mr. Stevens.” Do you know why you respect your boss? Because he has got your money in his pocket! He is responsible for your raise. Well, guess what God is saying? “I am responsible for your blessing, and you aren’t getting one.”

A lot of the wives today need to go home and say to your husbands “I am sorry for disrespecting you. I have talked to you disrespectfully. I have called you out of your name in front of the kids. I have disrespected you with my girlfriends. I have been unwilling to serve you in the way that God expects. And instead of me taking responsibility, I use your failures to excuse my irresponsibility. And before God that is wrong…and I apologize.”

That they may be won without a word.

You say “I don’t believe that can happen. I need to help God out here. My husband doesn’t need an invisible God, he needs a woman he can see. I have to help God out here.” That’s why you need to know the rest of this section because God says that the reason that you aren’t seeing me change him is because you think you are supposed to. “That they may be changed without your nagging, your fussing, your cussing and complaining.”

So ladies, some of you need to apologize. Because it has been years since some of your husbands got a kind word. Or you complimented him. Well ,you say “I would compliment him if he did something right?” Well, he did one thing right didn’t he? He married you! He thought you were good enough for him.

This behavior has to be observed. Not hear. And it must be respectful. The meaning of the word observe is to leave him with his mouth open. Shock him today with “whatever you say darling…I’d be honored to support you in that.” And then after you call the paramedics because he had a heart attack…

You’re not going to get this out in the world, in the secular society. But we aren’t called to follow the world…we are called to follow Christ.


Next up…Seducing your husband (1 Peter 1:3-4).

This is amazing stuff MM - thank you so much - since I am very new to my spiritual journey, I am learning alot - and I am so guilty of all these things...

thank you - I can't wait to read more.

-ds

On the "helpmate" role:

I read in "Captivating" that the Hebrew words used are "ezer kenegdo." "Kenegdo" means alongside or opposite, a counterpart to. Ezer does mean "help," but it's a very specific word for help. The word "ezer" is only used 20 other times in the whole Old Testament, and every one of those times, the "help" referred to is God himself, when you need him to come through for you in a life-or-death kinda way.

I do think it's important to clarify that it's not a "helper" like you let your little kid be your "helper" on a project. This "helper" is needed. Essential. Critical to survival.

Just tossing that in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for throwing that in, because you are absolutely correct!! God said when He created Adam that it was not good. Eve was critical, needed, essential...as yoi have written. A wife is needed, critical, essential.

Have you ever noticed this? Most of the great men in history had a great woman beside them. Name a great man, and I bet you can name the name of his wife!!

But, with great women, I bet most of them you dont even know if they were married, let alone what her husband's name is.

Adam needed help. Adam was not complete! Ladies, your husband was not complete until you came along. You are not just some "helper" as she just said. You are the other half of the equation. God only said that it was "very good" after He created Eve. The only time in Creation He said this. Tells you something about what God thinks of women, doesnt it?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's AWESOME to me that you mentioned the PROVERBS 31 Woman. Being her is MY MISSION during MY PERSONAL RECOVERY. Thinking of those verses keep me going everyday, keep me on course, ready to meet any life challenges.

I read those verses at my grandmother's funeral last July. That's who she was and "whom I strive to be" is what I said. A light bulb seemed to go on in my FWH's head... "I SEE WHO YOU ARE, WHO YOU STRIVE TO BE....

After him being in the hands of SATAN.....

She is awesome, isnt she? Every man dreams of that kind of woman.

MM, Ladies,

May I interject something here. As I was reading part of this post yesterday and then today, I was struck but something I thought I would share with you. It is not Biblical, it is a true story told to me by a friend who works in marine biology.

It seems this friend knew a fellow that work with dolphins. They were training some dolphins to jump through a hoop. All of the dolphins picked it up rather quickly except one of them. This particular dolphin refused to do this. The fellow tried for about a day with now luck. So a co-worker came out with him. The co-worker noticed that the fellow was not holding the hoop vertical, he had it tilted. He suggested that the fellow hold it vertical and the dolphin jumped right through.

Now the friend that told me this story looked at me and stated: "It makes you wonder who was training who doesn't it?" I laughed.

This thought came to me when you all were talking about the heirarchy between God, husband, and wife. And it was further enhanced by the statement that Adam was not complete so God created Eve.

Do you suppose that men's role is their role because they have more to learn and thus must be closer to the source?

My point and perhaps the point MM is making is that we preceive things from our perspective, but that does not mean that we know the purpose or the merit of it all. One learns most, when one is forced to teach.

I have always thought that we assume a lot when we assume our perspective is the whole picture, just as assuming that women are "second" class based on the heirarchy just might be an incomplete picture. The full picture requires both H and W and some firm guidance, right MM?

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

Really? Are you sure everyman?

Sometimes it seems Britney Spears or Pamela Anderson is more what everyman dreams of.

Are you sure????

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As usual JL, you are correct. On all counts. Your post reminded me of something interesting. If anyone has read the Scriptures carefully, they will notice something about the disciples. There were a few that Jesus kept very close to Him. Why? Well, some reason they had a lot to learn or maybe they were favored. My theory? Well all of the ones that Jesus kept close to Him were known troublemakers. I think He kept them close to keep them from doing stupid stuff. So, maybe that is why men have Jesus as their head. Maybe He NEEDS to keep us close by!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, you make good points. And I am certain all of those things are part of the reason things are set up the way they are.

I have told this before, but I'll mention it again. In the military there are officers and then there are NCOs (non-commissioned officers---sergeants). I was a First Sergeant. With the Captain, we ran a company of 126 infantry soldiers. Now, while both of us led that company...it was our company...the commander, was ultimately in charge...and might I add, ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that unit did and didnt do.

Now was that captain better than me? In many ways as a soldier, I was better than him. I had over a decade more experience. I had been where he had not. But, was he a better man just because he was an officer. He was not. As soldiers, we were equal. Same uniform, same weapons, same overall mission. But in that mission, our roles were distinctly different. And guess what? Could the company have done well without me? No. Could they have done well without the captain? No. BOTH were essential to that company succeeding.

As it is in the family with husbands and wives. Wives are NCOs. They are equals. But the husband, as the officer, has been given "command." That means not only does he get to make the final decision, but he is also held responsible for what goes right and/or wrong with the family. Tough stuff. Sometimes, I would look at the captain after he had been raked thru the coals by the battalion commander, and feel sorry for him. And be glad that it wasnt my butt on the line.

Ladies, try having to be responsible to God for your husband and your kids. For what they do, how they turn out. You want that? Really?

There is a two-sided coin when talking about command. It is not what it is all cracked up to be! As my wife once said "I have the easy part...I just have to submit. You, on the otherhand, have to die!"

In His arms.

Quite sure Pep. Britney??? Look, it is like candy. We love candy, we think we want tons of it. But what do we really need? What do we really want? Candy doesn't fill you up. Candy doesnt do anything for you? While candy is nice (and I had my candy stage when I was younger <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), it isnt what we really want...and definitely not what we need.

My wife is a gorgeous woman. Has modeled some. During the affair, she took money out of our account and got a boob job and had a whole lot of things done that, in the Pamela Adnerson/Britney world, made her look even better. But, at the same time, some of our friends said that she didnt really look all that more attractive. That because of what the affair was doing, the countenance on her face was different. She wasnt as beautiful, even if she had larger boobs and a great tan. That is because she got those, but lost what really makes her beautiful. Look, the looks are what got yoru husband. It is what is inside that will keep him!

I will be going into how a wife seduces her husband, and how she surrenders to him. In that, you will see WHY a man needs a wife like this. What she feeds in him. How, even as the years go on, and the wrinkles come, and the few pounds are added...the Proverbs 31 seems to get even more beautiful.

More to come!!

OT a bit MM - but looking for a Christian perspective...

I vowed on my wedding day to commit my life to honoring, my H, have and hold him, love and cherish him, comfort him through good times and bad times, be faithful to him, etc. He made the same promise to me.

I broke my vows, I did not cherish him, I did not comfort him through his bad times, I was unfaithful to him and did not honor him.

Does this make my vows nul and void? Isn't this considered a bad time? I BELEIVE in my vows still. I am learning through Christ to be a better wife, a better woman. I am loving and cherishing him through these bad times now, NOW being faithful to him, honoring him.

But because I broke the vows, because of his pain, is he breaking his? I know he is being faithful, but what about honoring me, cherishing me through my bad times. This was a VERY bad time for me.

No don't take this the wrong way - I am not playing the memememe, as far as I am concerned, he does not have to do this for me - he is hurting, he is in pain, I hurt him beyond compare, but it makes me wonder...do alot of BS's see their vows as completely broken? Do some BS's see the vows as JUST being faithful

I look back, and both of us broke MANY of our vows, long before my A. I was critizing and degrading him long before the A, he was neglecting and not comforting me, long before my A. We took eachother for granted long before the A. The A I do believe is the worst deal breaker of them all - but in a spiritual Christian sense, I see me as breaking many more vows before that point, and him breaking many of his.

I know my vows are now MORE important to me than ever, but they mean nothing to him. So much so - he will no celebrate our anniversary. Just looking for a Christian perspective on these thoughts and ramblings - sorry - didn't mean to thread jack either...just trying to live like God intended me to, as God's child, and a wife as God created me to be...and of course these leads to more questions!!! lol

-dorry

Interesting.


He doesn't exactly use the CANDY analogy. Replace CANDY with the WHOR.... word. This is how my FWH has explained his relationship with the FOW relative to his R with ME the STRIVING PROVERBS 31 woman....

Importantly though, it did take PLAN B for him to learn that she was ONLY A PIECE OF CANDY! Well, maybe a BAG of M&Ms.

Hey DS, great question!! This question is the MAIN one that kept me in the game with my WW. It is the main one that continues to keep me there.

Why in the world did I take her back? Most of my friends and relatives did not understand at the time. One of the major reasons I did was my vows. I made a vow to God AND my wife on our wedding day. While she might have broken hers to me, mine still held between me and God. I said that I would be her husband and do all of those things you mentioned above, until DEATH do us part.

Many of us love the rich, health, in good times. But vows were not made for times such as these. Those vows were made for poorer, for sickness, for bad times. I told my wife with my vows, essentially, that I was there for her no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT!!

Now, yes...God has ALLOWED divorce for ceratin sins. But that is not His will. His will is that despite our sins, despite how we have let each other down, that this marriage endures...and thrives. That's why I refused to listen to the foggy statements of my wife. I decided I was going to listen to Jesus and follow the truth, and make my WW, my friends and my relatives all "liars."

As much as the A hurt me, Jesus took me down a road that led to me realizing that her sin of adultery and of abandonment of me and the kids was no different in his eyes, than the things I had done to her. My failures. Remember, ALL sin has the same punishment...death!

I cannot speak for your husband, except for the fact that his reactions are normal. This is why God ALLOWS divorce for adultery. Because there are some that just cant get past the betrayal. But, as I believe JL told me one time..."if yo uare waiting for God to tell you to divorce your wife, you will be waiting a long time...because He NEVER will."

Our God is a God of redemption. The God of second, third, 100 chances! Grace. Unmerited, undeserved favor.

I now realize, as JL pointed out to me back then, that I had two choices. I could have given in, and been blameless. I could have walked away and started over. I could have walked away and saved me the pain of Plan A, Plan B...recovery. I could have started with someone new who I didnt every so often, picture with the OM.

But I also had a second choice. To take the narrow road, as it says in the Bible...the one less traveled. Since I went down this road, I can tell you...I look at where it has taken me, and I do not regret it one bit. Even if our marriage had not workd out. Why? Because the wide path, the one where I quit and divorced her, took me down a road that missed God's will, missed the best that He wanted to give me. The narrow path, the one with some incredible pain and hurt, has been found to have so many blessings now, that I dare begin to count. Life has taken a dramatic turn for the better.

You see, this reminds me of the story of a little girl...maybe 5 years old. When she was one, her daddy gave her a gold necklace. Now, it wasnt real gold...but the little girl wore it everyday and it was her most prized possession. But after awhile, it bgan to turn her neck green from wear.

Her father came to her one day, asked her to take off her necklace and give it to him. That he had a gift in his hand in exchange for it. That little girl thought for a moment and said "No, daddy. I love this necklace." She would not let go of it. It was her most prized possession. Her dad told her that was fine...and that when she was ready, he would exchange the new gift for the necklace.

Everyday for a few months, her dad would ask her to exchange the necklace for the gift in his hand. And she would say "No daddy...I love this necklace. I love you."

One day, the little girls finally relented. Crying, looking at the floor, she held her hand out to her dad with the necklace in it. Her dad took the necklace out of her hand and placed in it her gift.

A 24K gold necklace, with a diamond pendant! Real gold this time! This girl, because she loved so much what she had and what she knew, had been unwilling to trust her dad enough that he would take what she had, what she loved...and give her it back in spades.

God wants our marriages to work, to thrive. He wants to lavish blessings upon us. But too often, we block those blessings, block those miracles, because we do not trust "Daddy" enough that he will take what we have and turn it into something miraculous.

Your husband hasnt realized this. And while coming here, and/or Godly counseling may help him get there, what I just showed you above will be the GREATEST factor in his life towards getting him there. What is that? It said that if he isnt up to snuff, then he can be won without a word, by the behavior of his wive.

If you submit, if you know how to properly seduce your husband, if you surrender to this fully, God has promised that He will take care of your husband. After all, Jesus is your husband's head. But if you do not trust "Daddy" enough to do what is right for you and your marriage, then you will continue to hold onto that beaten, worthless necklace. And you will block your miracle.

In His arms.

Exactly Mimi. That is why I LOVE Plan B. Because they cannot survive long on just candy!

Thanks so much MM - it's what I was thinking in my head, and prayer about - but discussion always help me so much. It's why i am so excited about reading more on the role of the woman. I trust God, and want to keep walking in his path.

-dorry

JL - A "biblical truth."

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can
comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God." (2Cor 1:3-4 NIV) (emphasis added)

Restorative GRACE to the broken and contrite. God's gift to us....and ours, through Christ, to "pass on" (there's more than enough to "go around").

"Yea, thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death....." (Ps 23:4a KJV)

"He restoreth my soul...." (Ps 23:3a KJV)

Mortar-

Just wanted to let you know that I am reading this thread, I am almost done with reading what a man is supposed to be doing. I haven't read what I am supposed to be doing as of yet, but I can imagine much like if the man does what he is supposed to be doing, his wife will change, that if we do what God wishes us to do with our husbands, the same would be true.

-Caren

Well, hopefully we are almost there.

Before D-day, I strived to be a Proverbs 31 woman. After D-day, I completely blew it for about a year. Then I started trying to get back on track. I do think it is a worthwhile goal for any woman, whether her husband leaves for good or not.

In a worldly way, it has caused me many problems and losses, but hopefully I will grow spiritually.

I hope we can go through it verse by verse and discuss what in means in the modern day world. The Proverbs 31 woman is not the woman our society admires.

You are right believer, the world does not admire the proverbs 31 woman. But the things of this world are but for a moment. the eternity with God is so worth the losses here.

Hi bjs -

But it seems to me that the Proverbs 31 woman gets rewarded in this life too.

I have a long way to go, but making a huge effort. Some of the things come easily - I was taught kindness by my family. Also I enjoy hard work.

My faults are in the patience area, and keeping my big mouth shut.

My daughter has a wonderful way of never saying anything unkind about anyone, no matter what. I used to be like that, but lately am struggling.

MM,

Just wanted you to know that I printed this thread out yesterday & my H & I read over the first part of the H together. He had a lot of input & said he's actively working on fulfilling the spiritual role as leader. He realizes what needs to be done & how he was lacking in these areas for all of our M. It is taking him a little while to get there, but he is making the effort & for that I am truly grateful.

The part for the women I had discovered during our separation & have been working actively on it since then. I have found that it has made a huge difference in the way we treat each other & how my H treats me & this M.

We can't "force" the other to act the way they're "supposed" to act according to God, but we can do something about ourselves & that's where it starts. People would be amazed how changing how YOU behave will fall over into how someone else behaves. I believe the whole key is to focus on yourself, something highly endorsed by the Harleys. If we do "our" share, it's amazing how the other responds to that. They change & they don't even realize until the change has taken place!

Anyway, thanks for starting this. I've also started a thread on Recovery following the woman's role in M, based on the book, A Wise Woman Builds Her House by a Fool Who Tore Hers Down With Her Own Hands by Erin Theile. She has a website called Restore Ministries that shows us women how we have failed God & how we have destroyed our own houses that we hold so dear & shows us how to get back what was lost. I learned a lot from her books & believe she has taken everything she teaches from the Bible.

I thank God for people like you who shine God's light everywhere you go, w/everyone you come in contact with. May God's blessings fall upon you today.

Whew, I'm finally caught up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I wanted to tell you that growing up, My mother ran our house. I thought that was the way things were supposed to be, and for YEARS that is what I attempted to do...and obviously I wasn't met by much success. I was subserviant in ways and rebellious in ways, I was certainly an odd combination.

It had become VERY clear to me, by means of my previous crisis that I was NOT doing what I was supposed to be doing and because of my upbringing and my stubborness I honestly don't know how else God could've gotten my attention. I wouldn't have been receptive to hearing any of the things I have learned without being stripped of the things I held so dear, and left in this painful and broken state, I looked to God to fix me. I cried out to heaven and asked for help, I asked for mercy, and was severely depressed when I didn't receive them......it's strange but as I am typing this I don't think I ever asked God why, I don't think that I every thought "Oh why me?!?!" I KNEW why me....I knew that I wouldn't have listened any other way......I knew God was knocking, but chose to ignore him, I figured "If it ain't broke....don't fix it" Well it was broken, and I just refused to see it, I have a whole new perspective now.

I am submissive to my husband now.....and it's a whole lot less painful than I would've ever thought it would be, it's easy actually. Before I didn't respect my husband, I thought since he was less educated than I was that I was superior, and that he should be thankful I graced him with my presence......well now, what a treat I must have been to be around....I wonder why he had an affair. The OW was my polar opposite, and that baffled me for the longest time....but it is becoming painfully clear to me now, that this mousy little thing, that I have NO respect for was probably GUSHING respect for my FWH....and that was a need that had been going unfilled for a very long time.

My Mother has ZERO respect for what I'm doing, she sees my submission as weakness. I don't share her opinion, I think that it takes great strength for me to trust in my Lord, and submit to my husband, and I can see it working, I can see God saying "FINALLY, Caren" I am finally giving God the credit he deserves for the things in my life. I know that he knows what is best for me, and have completely let go of the wheel. Times when I am suspicious of things and start to get back into the mode where I could VERY easily jump up and try to run things again, I am gently brought back to God, I stop and ask him for his guidance, instead of reacting, and he NEVER steers me wrong.

I used to hate the phrase "The meek shall inherit the earth". I am a very strong woman, and I thought....how is this possible? The meek never do anything, life just happens to them, that phrase is worthless. How wrong I was. I didn't realize that meek is not synonmous with weak, meek does not mean that life will just happen to me, it means that I understand my role now, and that I trust that in God all things are possible. It is not necessary for me to steam roll everybody in order to reach my goal, I only need to follow God and the rest takes care of itself. It's amazing, and wonderful, and it feels like the weight of the world has finally been taken off my shoulders, or more appropriately I have finally allowed God to relieve me of my self imposed burden.

I wanted to also tell you a story that my Pastor told me. He is a baptist minister, and generally I don't care for the fire and brimstone delivery of a baptist minister, but this is not his style. I had just separated from my husband and moved into my 1/2 double, and on the other side of the double is a neighbor that I had known for years, we had previously lived beside each other, well this woman is a crack addict (I know that sounds so urban, but I live in the suburbs...very quiet) and her husband is an alcoholic, and they were both members of this small baptist church (not GOOD members...but members just the same). The pastor had stopped by to pay them a visit and I just happened to be on their porch talking about something. He came up to the door, and they introduced me to him and much to my dismay told him about the separation and how sad I'd been. The pastor talked to me so kindly, and told me a story of a rocky time in his own marriage. He was not a minister at this time, he was married, but out running around with his friends and drinking...etc. His wife went to church, which he found unnecessary. She submitted to him, even though he was not living like he should be, she went to church, and demonstrated through her actions that she was a Godly woman and before long God began to change him through her, he began to realize that he needed to change, and subsequently went to college and became a minister. He said "Mrs. M" (That's me)"I was a rascal, I am lucky that my wife stayed married to me".

He is the sweetest man, and I thank God for his influence.

I thank God a lot now. Before when I was separated I was miserable, and asking God to help me.....I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I had a man at work tell me, Caren.....you are asking God to do these things for you, and he will, but Caren are your prayers to God only about you? (They totally were) He said "Caren, even in our darkest hour, there are so many things to thank God for...we work in a hospital, there are so many people that have it worse than we do, pray for them Caren, pick someone everyday, and you pray for them. You praise God for the blessings that you have recieved and you ask him for guidance in your own life, but you ask God to help these people, they are sick and they need your prayers." And so I did, I began to pick a person everyday to pray for, and on the way to work instead of mulling over in my mind what a crappy deal I'd gotten, I made the entire ride to work a long prayer praising God for everything that I did have, not a pity party of everything I was without."

I have a little trouble grasping the obvious, and when I finally get it, I think Oh my gosh, what is my problem? I knew this all along.

Mortar, thank you so much for starting this series, you should do this for a living. Your wife is a lucky woman.

I am anxiously waiting for the rest of this thread, what a blessing that you started it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In Gods Love,

-Caren

been reading up alot more on this topic and have a few things to add from some sites I have been reading up on and praying about - once again - would love feedback!

It's neat as I se Marriage Builders as following almost exactly what a Christian Role is, but with taking God out so that others who aren't Christian can follow it too...the more I read, the more I know Marriage Builders is such a great thing for christians.

Just so you know - all of this is cut and pasted - I didn't write any of the below - I just find it all fascinating!!

Proverbs 31:11,12 says “The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.” Our husbands should not have to worry about their needs being met in the home, whether physical or material.

I Corinthians 7:3-5 says, “Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.” When two become one….one-flesh…their priorities change. They now should be concerned about pleasing their spouse.

Verses 32-34 of that same chapter speaks on this: “But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is a difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Verse 4 says that the aged women are to teach the young women and one of the things they are to teach them is to love their husbands. How are they to teach this? I believe they are to teach by example. This may seem “elementary” to you…I would imagine that every married lady in here, if asked, would say, “Yes, I love my husband.” But, do our actions show it? Does our husband know that, after however many years of marriage, he’s still the most wonderful man….that you’d marry him all over again? Do your children know that Momma and Daddy love each other?

What does it mean to be a godly wife?

First of all it means that no matter what your husband's spiritual condition may be, he deserves a wife who exhibits God-pleasing behavior. You don't have to hold back any good thing from your husband just because he doesn't believe in God, in fact your loving treatment of him may cause him to have a change of heart! This is not to say that a wife has the power to save her husband's soul; only the Holy Spirit can accomplish that (see Common Misconceptions), but you can certainly influence your husband (without words no less!) and show him the love of Christ.

Practical Steps


Don't preach.
Do let your loving actions speak louder than your words.
Don't use the Bible to back up criticism. The wisdom of the Bible is foolishness to unspiritual people (1 Corinthians 1:18).
Do praise and encourage your husband when he does something you know is God-pleasing.
Don't worry. Remember God loves your husband more than you do and wants him to be saved!
Do pray for your husband with hope!

MM hurry up and finish your teachings - I am so darned excited to read the next parts lol

-dorry

^^^Bump^^^

MM, I’m looking forward to read the other 2 sections on the women’s role as well. I’ve forwarded the info to some of my friends already and they also wait in anticipation to read the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just want to say thanks for this thread again and thanks for sharing your God-given wisdom and insight so generously and patiently. I’m sure this thread is helpful to many, many people.

Blessings,
Suzet

Been a rough couple of days. I plan on getting out the second of the women's roles out tonight. Thanks.

Hey there Mortar, just checking to see if you'd posted more on the Wife's side of things, I see that you're working on it, so I'll probably check tommorrow or possibly the next day.

--Waiting

-Caren

bump, i'm not posting but i am reading and i,m very interested in seeing more on the wives role part.

not meaning to presure you but are you still going to do this sometime?

Arrrrrgh Mortar......I thought you were gonna post more, the anticipation is killing me.

Impatient Woman #1

-Caren

The anticipation is killing me too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Impatient Woman #2

Suzet

I see Mortarman has last posted on 27 May, so I assume he is very busy or something has come up in his personal life, so I think we must just stay patient girls! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hopefully when he returns he will have the next 1 or 2 parts of the women’s role ready... Mortarman, we don't mean to pressure, but this stuff is just so interesting & insightfull that we can't wait to read the rest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's it Mortar, you are out of the will!!! LOL (And I was going to leave you my rubber band collection--lol).

:P
-Caren

Caren, do you want "the" answer, boiled down to it's utmost simplicity? "The" answer is the same that was given to Peter...."why did you take your eyes off of me (Jesus)and doubt?" We sink into the "waters" when that happens.

Keep your gaze on Christ. Keep your efforts directed at "pleasing God first," and the rest will be handled by God no matter how the storms may appear to "rage" around you.

Okay, I was out of the loop for the last two weeks. A lot of work and personal stuff going on. Anyway, I am typing away on the second of the three things for the wife. Should be up be early this afternoon. Sorry for the delay...life always seems to get in the way!

In His arms.

Thanks MM - your efforts are much appreciated! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Mortar......just stopped in to see if you had anything new up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Caren

When Mortarman,when?

We women have been extra patient...........pleeeeease, pretty please!

Mortarman,

I was wondering if the information you had posted here came from a book and if so, what is the name of that book.

Thanks

bump, hoping for an answer to the above question....

FL-T2M - No, what MM has been writing didn't come from a book. It came from a series at his church.

However, if you'd like a book that delves into similar material I would recommend you get a copy of Magnificent Marriage by Gordon MacDonald.

God bless.

thanks FH!!

***edit***

After I've saw this thread with the few more responses and opened it, I was SOOO hoping I would FINALLY see the outstanding 2 roles of the W’s role. Aaaggghhh, what a disappointment… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Hope we wil eventually get it someday... Will we MM?

I apologize. Much of what I have been doing in my life lately has been taking ALOT of time (new business, travel baseball for my sons). Barely have time to deal with the issues that are day-to-day here. But I did finish the 2nd of 3 sections for the gals FINALLY!! So, here comes that post. I will then start on the final one.

Seducing your husband...(1 Peter 1:3-4)

“Your adornment must not be {merely} external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but {let it be} the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.”

We started off with the men, with the husband commanded to love his wife as Christ loves the church. That in order to do this, he must become her savior, sanctifier and satisfier. We then started in on the role of the wife, which is to respect her husband. And the first way was to submit to his headship.

One day a woman was trying to get her mule to move. But her mule was stubborn and ornery. So, she went into the barn, found a 2x4, came out and…BAM…hit the mule upside the head. The mule fell over, shook its head, and staggered back to its feet and then begin to follow the woman. Her daughter, who had watched all of this, asked her mom “Why did you hit the mule upside its head?” She said, “because you have to sometimes do something to get its attention.

Men are often stubborn, mule-headed, ornery, lazy, babies-instead-of-men. But God has given every woman a 2x4, one that most women are unwilling to use. It is called respect.

God has said that a wife’s role in the marriage is to hold her husband in high esteem. That does not mean agreeing with him. That does not mean she becomes a subordinate, meaning less than…no more than Christ was less than God. What it does mean is a functional term, in order to fulfill a program, which requires a willingness to yield to your husband’s headship. It is a recognition that God Himself has placed your husband as the head of the home. And your submission of his position…even if you are smarter, more educated, have more common sense…it is a 2x4 that God has given you that if swung hard enough and consistent enough, will get the mule moving. That is why He states that even if they are not obeying the Word, when they observe your chaste and respectful behavior, they can be won.

We are now going to continue on by discussing the second role…which is wives seducing their husbands. Now before you guys get too excited out there…

God wants you wives to be seductive for your husbands, but in a Christian sort of way. That is what verses 3-4 are about above. It says that respect for your husband is seductive.

He uses the word adornment. Let’s look at that word for a minute. The word used in the Bible comes from a Greek word pronounced cosmos. This word is also used in the NT as the word “world.” We get the English word from this “cosmetic.” The word literally means “to arrange or organize.” When the Bible talks about the world, it is talking about how Satan arranges things to leave God out… to forget God.

Knowing how women are normally oriented to how they look, Peter uses this to express how she should relate to her husband, how she adorns herself. So, ladies, when he talks about adornment, he is talking about how a woman makes herself attractive. He says that even if your husband isn’t all he ought to be, he wants to raise a question about how attractive you are.

You see, the reason he raises this question is twofold. First, women are into how they look. And secondly, men are into how they look. Men are seduced by what they see. Men don’t necessarily have to feel it, they just need to see it. That’s why your husband spends more time in your Victoria Secret catalog than you do. Because men are seduced by what they see. That’s why pornography is such a major problem, why the internet is such a problem with men. Because men are seduced by what they see. Men don’t need to feel it, they just need to see it.

Women are oriented toward how they look. They carry their compact cases, the tools to look good all of the time. They do this because it is important to them, and because this is what men see. He says that I want you to look a certain way, particularly to your husband. He wants you to look a a certain way for your husband, to be adorned a certain way for him.

He says that your respect for your husband is your compact case…carry it with you. Because it keeps you looking good.

Does anyone know the difference between a rebellious, unsubmissive, disrespectful wife and a pitbull? Lipstick! (joke…it is just a joke…don’t shoot me and no virtual 2x4s please!!)

He says I do want you to adorn yourself, to look and be arranged and ordered…to have your hair in place, jewelry in place…but He also wants you to adorn yourself with that which has deeper value.

Stores advertise their products in the windows using mannequins. Lifeless replicas. But recently, some stores have moved to live models in the window. They will stand there motionless, wearing the store’s fashions. Sometimes, the only way to tell they are real women is that they blink.

Many people will come by and knock on the window, or make faces, in order to get her to move. But she had something more important in sight that kept her motionless…it was in pleasing her employer.

Ladies, for you to live this life that God has ordained, you are going to have to ignore the folks on the other side of the glass. What the Bible talks about will go against what many of your friends will say, will go against what much you will read in popular magazines, will go against what you see on TV. But you aren’t here to please the onlookers…you are here to please the Lord.

So God wants you adorned, He wants you arranged, He wants you looking good. He wants you seductive, if you will, in the sense of attention getting. But, what is the content of this adornment, this look?

Verse 3 says “our adornment must not be {merely} external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses;” Please note, He is saying “I want you adorned in two ways, not just one.” When you get dressed, you try to look your best. God applauds that. But He is saying don’t let it just be how you look on the outside. He is not criticizing how you look on the outside. He is saying that if you can make yourself look good for your boss, you should definitely be making yourself look good for your husband. If you can look good for men you don’t know, you should be looking good for men you do know…mainly the man God has given you as your mate. The woman in Proverbs 31 is a beautiful woman. We are told how she dresses, how beautiful she is.

God does, however, want your beauty to be tempered by modesty. 1st Timothy 2:9 says: “Likewise, {I want} women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments…” He says look beautiful, but don’t leave modesty. What do we mean by modesty? Immodesty is when something is “too.” It is when something is too low, too high, or too tight. If it is too low, too tight, or too high…suggesting an intent to seduce… The reason it says this in 1st Timothy is because that women should watch how they dress at church because in prayer, the people should not miss God in the prayer. But this also applies outside of the church.

He says “not merely external…” You ladies need to understand that a lot of your beauty is store bought. I don’t care how pretty you are, it is store bought. If you took off the make-up, if you threw away the curling iron, if you didn’t wear the clothes that you normally wear…most of you wouldn’t look like you do now…we might not even recognize you. That’s why you ladies say “I have to go put on a face” … because the one you have is not your own. It’s store bought. The jewelry you wear that everyone compliments you on, that hairdo you got at the beautician…it’s all store bought.

Now God isn’t saying there is anything wrong with that. This isn’t a criticism of that. But He is saying that you have to understand…that’s not you. You are looking good and a girlfriend says “Girl, that’s you.” No it’s not. That’s Neiman Marcus, that’s Nordstroms, that’s Bloomingdales. That’s not you.

So, He says not to get enamored by this external beauty. Don’t think because you have all of these things that can make you stunning, that that is the sum total of the beauty of you. That is just one side. He wants to give you the rest of the story.

1st Peter 3:4: “But let it be the hidden person of the heart, with an imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit.” God wants to know are you as pretty on the inside as you are trying to be on the outside. He wants to know that your internal beauty is taking precedence over your external beauty. That He compliment you on how you look on the inside, like you are trying to get compliments from others on how you look on the outside.
The external fools you. It can give the impression that how you look is how you are. That just because people say you are pretty, it can make you think you are pretty. Why? Because external beauty is not being supported by internal beauty…or the hidden person of the heart.

He is talking in this passage on how you look to your husband. He says that your husband ought to see your respectful behavior. And so, if you dishonor him…I’m not talking about disagreeing with him…if you dishonor him, then that shows an ugly attire, it is showing poor adornment…it is showing a poor style. It means that you are not properly attired. What people see must also be supported by who you are. That’s why He calls it the hidden person of the heart…the person not readily observable.

What is God is concerned about is that you are as pretty on the inside as you try to be thru all of your efforts on the outside. He calls it the inner person of the heart…the inner man…the core of you. Don’t tell me when you look good on the outside, but your every word to your husband cuts, you pick up the phone and run him down to your girlfriends…where you do not seek to embellish him in front of your children…don’t tell me that you look good before God when you look ugly before your husband and about him.

How do you get pretty on the inside? There’s only one way, and that is to be transformed by His glory. In other words you have to be a woman of God, you have to be in hot pursuit of God. And He will give you a gentle and quiet spirit. That doesn’t mean you don’t talk…it has to do with how you talk. It isn’t talking about the times when you get frustrated 9everyone gets frustrated). What I am talking about is your overall demeanor. Your overall demeanor should be kindness. It says about the woman in Proverbs 31 that kindness is under her tongue. I am sure she got upset and frustrated, I’m sure she had bad days, PMS days. I’m sure she went thru menopause. These are facts of life. But it says that when you look at her overall demeanor, kindness was under her tongue.

When is the last time you said something kind to your husband? That it wasn’t smart aleck, it wasn’t a put down? When was the last time you used a meek spirit, a gentle spirit…not a tearing down, demasculating one?

God wants the woman that even though you are getting older, or wrinkles are starting to show, or you are putting on a few pounds…because of God’s glory on the inside, you are getting prettier all the time. You ladies know what I am talking about. We all know that average looking lady at church who has that almost mystical beauty to her, something radiating from her that takes her ordinary external look and makes her into something beautiful.

Look at how much time you spend on your look. You make an investment. The Bible has a term for this. It calls this a woman’s glory. It says that a woman’s hair is her glory, and isn’t that so? It is when you step out and gone thru all of the time and energy to look glorious.

A lot of guys out there are married to women like my wife. When we have to go somewhere at 7pm, at 6pm…she goeth before the mirror of her glory. She goes to work. She pulls out eye highlighter, and curling iron, and make up, and stuff I cant pronounce…and in an hour is transformed before my very eyes. Then she heads out to the car, and checks the glory that she just put on.

If you have a woman like that, men, and she seeks to be glorious…the Bible says that the woman is the glory of the man…so go ahead baby, make me look good!!

Now, you wives are saying: “Okay, I’ve got it. I am supposed to be respectful to my husband. I’m supposed to be intimate with God so He can give me that respect that I don’t have. I am to lay myself before God and ask God to help me with all of this…to help me become what I am not. But you do not understand…he irks me. He gets on my last nerve.”

That’s why the last line is so important. He says because it is precious in His sight. We would probably be tempted to disregard that statement, but it is probably the most important phrase we have gone over.

He says for you to look like this on the inside, to make it a goal…just like you spend time looking good on the outside…if you take the time to invest in God’s presence or sight (sight means face-to-face)…where you are looking at the face of God…the Bible says in 2nd Corinthians 3, that when you look long enough at the face of God, you will be transformed by His glory. His glory begins to make you up…you get your own private make-up artist. Like the movie stars that get made up, God becomes your own private make-up artist and He calls the making-you-up-on-the-inside as precious. This is the word used for the woman who brought Jesus the alabaster box. It says it was priceless…precious.

Not what makes something priceless, precious? Simple. Because it is rare. The rarer it is, the more valuable. Stuff that is every where is a dime-a-dozen. Stuff you only can find in certain places has more value. God says the woman He is talking about is hard to find. You can find pretty women on the outside all day long!! Because you can buy that. But He says this woman I am talking about is rare. The Bible says about the proverbs 31 woman “an excellent woman who can find, for her price is far above rubies.”

You single ladies, you have to understand your value. You are not a piece of meat. You are not something to be used and discarded…you have more value than that. You are not here to be used by men that have no respect for you. If they don’t have respect for you…you have respect for yourself. They can’t talk to you anyway…they can’t touch you in any way. Why? Because I am precious in His sight! I’m one of those rare kind of women.

It is precious. In other words, God pays attention to this kind of woman…God works on behalf of this kind of woman. Women who just look good on the outside…all the men go crazy over them. But God goes crazy over this lady.

Like the lady who broke the alabaster box…everyone else was wondering why she was getting all of this attention from Jesus. Simple…she was rare. Unique. Different. Not like the rest.

God hates external beauty not supported by internal beauty. He hates external beauty on top of internal ugly. In Isaiah Chapter 3:16, God says to the pretty women:

Quote

Isa 3:16 Moreover, the LORD said, "Because the daughters of Zion are proud And walk with heads held high and seductive eyes, And go along with mincing steps And tinkle the bangles on their feet,
Isa 3:17 Therefore the Lord will afflict the scalp of the daughters of Zion with scabs, And the LORD will make their foreheads bare."
Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of {their} anklets, headbands, crescent ornaments,
Isa 3:19 dangling earrings, bracelets, veils,
Isa 3:20 headdresses, ankle chains, sashes, perfume boxes, amulets,
Isa 3:21 finger rings, nose rings,
Isa 3:22 festal robes, outer tunics, cloaks, money purses,
Isa 3:23 hand mirrors, undergarments, turbans and veils.
Isa 3:24 Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction; Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, a plucked-out scalp; Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty.

You know what God is saying here? He is going to make your outsides look like your insides. Because your heart is not for Him. You only get adorned for yourself and for the attraction you bring your way. You do not spend the time to look good to Me.

God says that when you become this kind of woman on the inside (the one we are talking about), it will be rare and precious…and He will get out His make-up kit…and He will start polishing you off. And then He is going to do a number on your husband…He’s gonna say “Hokus-pokus.” He’s going to hypnotize him, so that he’s not thinking like he used to think or seeing like he used to see.

You’ve been trying to change your husband for years and it hasn’t changed anything…how about giving God a shot. By becoming a woman who’s inner beauty is so rare to God, it’s so seductive to God, it’s so attention getting to God, that God works on your husband for you. You have been trying to change him without becoming the inner woman that God wants you to be…and then you wonder why he’s not changing.

Maybe you aren’t rare enough yet. Maybe you are just like the run-of-the-mill. Your external beauty may have gotten him…but it is your internal beauty that will change him. Your external beauty may have gotten him because men respond to what they see. It played a part. But it is your internal beauty that will change him.

Now you might be saying “My husband wont see that internal beauty.” He wont have to…because it is precious in the sight of God. God will see you…and then God will do what you can’t. God will work where you can’t.

Now this might take some time. Now I am not talking about someone that is beating his wife or anything like that. I am talking about a husband that just isn’t up to snuff…isn’t doing what we told the men to do early on in this series (savior, sanctifier, satisfier). Yes, he does have a responsibility. Yes, it would be easier if he did his part and led the way. But that does not exonerate you because He says that even if he is without the Word, you will be precious in the sight of God.

That’s why He says in the beginning of verse one…”in the same way.” In the same way connects you to the verses in chapter 2:21-25, which states:

Quote

1Pe 2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1Pe 2:22 WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
1Pe 2:23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting {Himself} to Him who judges righteously;
1Pe 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Just like Jesus had to trust God in a bad situation, ladies…you are going to have to trust God in a bad situation. Not by paying back with your tongue. Not by paying back with your lips. Not by using your position to disregard him. But by your respectful, honoring behavior you will get God’s attention even if you don’t think you are getting your husband’s.

May God raise up a crop of women that look good in and out for His glory!!

OMG - blink blink can it be????

Off to read it all!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />Yeah...finally!!

Okay, here comes the final one AT LAST!!!

Surrendering to Your Husband...(1 Peter 3:5-6)

“For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.”

In a courtroom, if you get upset at the proceedings…you don’t like what is going on…and you blurt out…screaming, yelling…in defense of yourself…even if you are right and the person on the other side is wrong, the judge will say “you are out of order.” In fact, if you continue ranting and raving…even if you are right…he will hold you in contempt of court. Because you have dishonored the courtroom.

There are many women today living in contempt of God’s court by their refusal to surrender to God’s divine order. And that order is clear. To respect your husband. The first issue isn’t that your husband is wrong and you are right. Because as we have already discussed respect recognizes his position as head. Even if you disagree with his point.

Hopefully you have learned so far that submission does not mean that you become a doormat, being a punching bag, being disregarded. That is NOT Biblical submission.

The people that hate the word submission hate the definition of the word that is different than they way God defines it. Biblical submission is a willing placing yourself under the authority of another to accomplish a common program. But many women are imprisoned in their rebellion and stubbornness because they refuse the divine order…and God Himself holds them in contempt of court.

So instead of doing it God’s way…they use the dishonor of their tongues to work against God rather than cooperate with God. Only to find themselves still incarcerated in a situation they cannot emotionally break free from.

Peter says however that when a woman does it God’s way, she can change her husband without a word. Now I know that is hard to believe, but that’s what God says. So the issue is whether you are going to let God be true and every man a liar.

Proverbs 25:24 says: ”It is better to live in the corner of the roof then in a house shared with a contentious woman.” Proverbs 27:15 says: ”A constant dripping on a day of steady rain and a contentious woman are all alike.” Drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip…

God says you will never accomplish your goal by nagging. And you ought to know that because you have been doing it for years and it hasn’t worked. Maybe trying it God’s way…

Today the question is very simple as we deal with the last two verses, verses 5 and 6 of 1st Peter 3. Are you going to surrender? Put your hands up? Are you going to say to God “I surrender.” Or are you going to say to God “I’m not doing that.” These two verses calls you to surrender to God’s command to respect your husband.

He first off says that you are going to need some models of holy behavior. He says “like the holy women of old.” He says to the New Testament crowd…you are going to have trouble finding this kind of woman today. With this Gen X generation…liberated generation…feminism generation. You are not going to find what I am talking about…you are going to have to go back to former women. Women who understood this.

We already saw in the last post that God calls this kind of woman rare. The excellent woman of Proverbs 31 is hard to find. It is hard to find holy women. And he is defining holy in the context of respect for your husband. Your holiness before God is directly related to your reverence for your husband. If you disrespect your husband (remember, that doesn’t mean you have to agree with him)…but if you dishonor his position before God, you are not a holy woman.

Wait a minute…maybe you didn’t hear that. It says the HOLY women…we are talking about the women set apart from God, the ladies who loved God, the women who were close to God…you always knew it because it showed up because of the way they treated their husbands.

So don’t tell me you are close to God and you talk to your husband like a dog. Don’t tell me you are close to God when you put your husband down with your friends or neighbors or even your children. He says the holy women of old didn’t do that.

They may not have agreed with their husbands (and would have registered their disagreements with him). They would have registered their complaints and shared their concerns. But they always honored his positions head.

We set ourselves up for failure in this new generation. You often hear people say, or parents say about their daughters…”I have to find me a strong man for my daughter.” Or, “she will run right over him.” Now, you have already set her up to be a non-submissive woman. Because what you have set her up to look for is the weaknesses in the man that she can run over. You have set her up to find his faults and use those as an excuse to take over.

God said to Adam…I am going to prepare you a helpmate. Now, in order for Adam to be prepared a helpmate, Adam first had to need help. God didn’t provide him a helpmate and he didn’t need help. The boy needed help!! Adam had his limitations.

The problem is that we have misunderstood the word “helpmate.” We define helpmate as “cooking, cleaning, and doing all the other stuff that we can pay to have someone not married to him to do.” You don’t need to be a wife to be a good cook. You don’t need to be a wife to clean up…if you make enough money, you can get a maid to do all of that. The woman in Proverbs 31 had maids…she didn’t have to do all of that cooking and cleaning.

This stuff isn’t the primary way you help your husband. It is a way…but not the primary way. The primary way you help your husband is to help him to become the leader God has appointed him to be. And you cannot help him to become the leader if you are tearing down his leadership role at the same time. So instead of denigrating it, you ought to come alongside and help him be better at it.

You ought to be his chief fan, his chief encourager. His chief support system. Many men would rather go out to eat with someone that is encouraging him, than eat at home with a good cook who has no respect for him. The main way you help him is bolstering him up…lifting him up.

But why aren’t more women doing this? Well, verse 5 says it is because they aren’t hanging out with holy women. You’re hanging out with your unholy girlfriends…you’re watching unholy television…you’re listening to unholy radio…you’re reading unholy books…so you become an unholy wife.

He says if you want to do this right, you need to hang out with the right company. We have mothers raising daughters to disrespect their future husbands and they don’t even know it. Because they are being set up to dishonor, rather than to be the helper to make him a better leader. That’s why Titus 2:3 puts it this way: ”Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, {to be} sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. Older means women that have already gone through things, already raised their children. You don’t go to someone that has been married five times for advice on how to respect a man. You want the advice from someone that has been in the ups and downs, at least since they have been saved, with one man. And didn’t run away, didn’t quit, didn’t throw in the towel.

Notice the last part of that Scripture…”so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” God’s motivation here isn’t to please society, He isn’t trying to please your feminist friends, He isn’t trying to please what the media is telling you…God says “I’m concerned about My Word. I’m concerned about My name. I’m concerned about My reputation.”

I know its hard living with some men. I know its hard dealing with some men. I know its hard following a parked car. I know its difficult trying to get somewhere when the man is not where he is supposed to be. So what you need are some older women who aren’t telling you “Well, girl…I’d leave him if I were you.” Who aren’t telling you “Well, I wouldn’t take that from him.” Unless it is of course violating a higher Biblical principle. God is not telling you to stay there and be beat up on or that kind of thing.

But because he isn’t all that he should be, or he isn’t what you thought he would be…you need older women who are giving you holy information. You need to hang out with God’s Ring of Honor. He says that the holy women were women who loved God and it showed up by how they reverenced their husbands.

You see Satan got Eve to disregard Adam. I don’t know if you knew that or not. Now it is Adam’s fault…the Bible holds Adam responsible for what happened in the Garden. And every man will be held accountable for his home before God. God will not ask about your wife, regardless of her personality or her flaws. He is going to ask every man. But it was set up by the Devil. And the way it was set up by the Devil was that Satan went to Eve and got her to disregard Adam. Her every move never included reverencing her head. He got her to pay no attention to Adam. Adam at this point is passive. He has become the non-leader…because he was standing right there when the snake was talking to his wife. You see, some people think Adam was a long way off. Nope. He was standing right there.

Now, we have a failed man…a passive man, not taking the leadership role. But instead of her passing it off to him in order to force him to take the leadership role, she took it herself. And when she did this, she reversed the roles in the Garden. Her attitude was “Since you aren’t going to be the leader, then I am going to be the leader.”

When she reversed the roles, the snake had her. She listened to the snake. And too many women are listening to the snakes in their lives, who mean no good giving you advice to disregard the Word of God. Because Satan got Eve to disregard the Word of God.

So, then there was a curse. “Your desire shall be unto your husband, and he shall rule over you.” That was the curse. The curse that came because of Adam and Eve’s sin was the Battle of the Sexes. The man is going to want to rule because he is made to rule (even though he is a bad ruler), and the woman is going to not want to be ruled. You are going to rebel against that.

That’s the curse. The battle we are having in our homes comes from this curse. But once you accept Christ, you are redeemed from the curse. Satan doesn’t want you to know that you are redeemed from the curse. That you don’t have to fight anymore for that position of head. But you need holy women to tell you this. Women who love God and reverence their husband. They may torrently disagree with their husband…but they always honor him.

Now, what motivated these holy women to do this? Well, verse 5 says that the holy women also hoped in God. This is the key to the whole thing here. They hoped in God.

Ladies…God wants to know “do you trust Him?” God wants to know “do you believe Him?” Here it is…if you believe your husband makes the final decisions, you are going to rebel against that. If you believe God makes the final decisions, then you wont. This is the major flaw in most homes when it comes to the wife. The wife doesn’t believe God overrules her husband. She believes “he’s the head…therefore he makes the final decision.” No way!! The Bible says for you to submit to your husband as to something bigger than your husband.

God says you go do your part, but you hope in God. You trust in the Lord. Now its one thing to trust in the Lord when you don’t have any problems. It’s one thing to trust in the Lord when he is the perfect leader and lover. But if he is that good, you may not see your need for the Lord. Your need comes from the Lord when your husband isn’t up to snuff. When his limitations show.

Do you believe God has the final word? The holy women of old kept their eyes on God…not their husbands. The holy women of old said “Okay, I don’t feel good about it, I don’t like it, I don’t prefer it, I think you ought to do it another way…but I am going to trust God. I am going to believe God is big enough and powerful enough to overrule this decision if it is wrong.”

Now that is going to take a little faith. So, the question is what do you think about God…not what you think about your husband.

One day a teenager lost one of his contacts on the carport as he was shooting baskets. He searched and searched for an hour for that contact. Not being able to find it, he went in and asked his mother to help. Well, his mom went out and in all of about 2 minutes, she found the contact lens. Stunned, the sons asked “Mom, how did you do that? I looked for almost an hour…and you find it in two minutes. How is that possible?” She replied “Simple, son. We weren’t looking for the same thing. You were looking for a piece of plastic…I was looking for $75.” In other words, it is all in your perspective.

When you look at your husband through the eyes of God, things will become clearer. When you look at him through your eyes, you will never find what you are looking for. You have been looking for him to change, nagging him to change…you have done all of this and nothing has happened. He wont change. You cant find a solution. Well, you aren’t looking with the right eyes.

They hoped in God and things became clear. Look at Mary…the virgin Mary. Mary is just minding her business and an angel comes and tells her “You’re going to have a baby.” She says “But I have never been with a man.” Angel replies “You’re still going to have a baby…God says so.” Now, if I’m going to get pregnant and I’m not married, this is going to create a few problems in my life. That could be a pretty embarrassing situation.

Do you know what Mary said? “May it be unto me as You have said.” You talk about something that doesn’t make sense. I am sure she found it difficult to wrap her mind around this and to get on board. But she still said “may it be unto me as you have said.” In other words…”I’ll take my risk with you, Lord.” Because faith involves risk. There is no way around that.

The question is “are you willing to bank on God?”

When you got married, you surrendered some things. The first thing you surrendered was your name. You gave up the name of your daddy. Another thing you surrendered was your independence. In fact, you surrendered your destiny. His job transferred…and you had to go. You even surrendered your will.

You have spent all of your married life trying to get all of that back. You’ve been trying to get your name back, your independence back, your destiny back, your will back. And rather than getting on the onramp to merge into where God is trying to take you…you are spending all of your time looking for an off ramp. You thought you married the ideal…discovered it has become a raw deal…and now you want a new deal. Many women want to do their own remodeling…and they create a mess.

Let me tell you what the holy women of old thought. They thought “Okay, I’m going to respect my husband even though I may not like what he is doing. I am going to honor his position, and then I’m going to duck so God can hit him upside his head.” But if you don’t believe God is going to get him if you get out of the way…then you are going to stay in the way and God wont touch Him. Read the story of Nabal and Abigail in the Bible (1st Samuel 25)…about how she honored her husband who was a fool. And how God came to her aid…and how her life worked out.

God can deal with your husband…you get out of the way!!! If you will just get out of the way, God can deal with that man, be he a fool or not. And the way you get out of the way is not by disappearing, but by relating to him with respect and honor.

But then Peter comes to verse six, where he selects one particular holy woman in describing the manner of your surrender. You’ve been fighting for a long time…God is saying “stick ‘em up.” And surrender to your Biblical role.

“Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.” I know this stuff is ticking you ladies off right now, isn’t it? She showed respect in her actions (she obeyed Abraham), and it was verbal (she called him lord). Your respect should be visible and verbal. You’re not to talk to him decent but treat him bad. Nor are you to treat him decent but talk to him like a dog.

It said that she called Abraham “lord.” If you look back at their story, you can realize that Abraham didn’t deserve her calling him lord. Go back and read their story. Abraham had failed Sarah on many occasions. Because of one of the issues and the fact that Sarah had obeyed with faith, God allowed Sarah to get pregnant. So what, you say? Well, when she got pregnant, Sarah was 90 years old.

God told Sarah in Genesis 18 that she was going to get pregnant. When she first heard this, it says that she laughed. She was laughing for two reasons. First because she was 90 years old. You don’t get pregnant when you are 90 years old. That is a biological impossibility.

She was laughing for a second reason. The Bible says that she says “shall I have pleasure of my lord?” In other words, she is saying we have two problems here. We have problem number one that I cant get pregnant, and problem number two…which is Viagra super-sized cannot help that man.

In other words, she was saying that what you are talking about is an impossibility. This could never happen. It is impossible. And I know some of you women are living with men where you are saying it is impossible…he wont change. This wont work. You are dealing with an impossibility as far as you can see.

In Genesis 18, God spoke to her in her laughter and said “What are you laughing at?” His point was…are you laughing at God? We aren’t given her response in Genesis 18, but we do get her response in Hebrews 11:11-12:



She respected her husband. Abraham had failures. He had weaknesses and spiritual limitations. But she decided “I’m going to stop laughing and start trusting.”

I know a lot of you ladies are laughing at this series of posts. I can hear you now: “No way. I’m not doing that. Aint gonna do it.” And you are laughing and God wants to know “Who are you laughing at?”

If you will position yourself as a woman of faith…if you can call him lord. “My lord…my master…my head. My leader. You may be a bad leader, but you’re my leader. I am going to honor that position as my head. I am going to stop fighting God.” God turned her laughter into faith.

Now I know what you are thinking. You’re thinking “I’m scared. At least when I am in rebellion, I can feel good about it because I am in control, I am protecting myself.” Well, please read the end of verse six, it says ”if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.” God is saying “there is nothing to be afraid of…I’ve got your back.” God says “I have your back. Don’t be afraid that he is going to take advantage of you.”

Now you are saying “Once I tell my husband he’s the leader, he isn’t going to keep it within the bounds of this post. He’s going to be all over the place ‘I’m the leader!! Come here, woman…doesn’t the Bible say I’m the leader?’ He is going to abuse this.” Well, God is saying “don’t be scared, I’ve got your back!!” Because just like he is telling you he is your leader, I’m going to find a way to tell him that I’m his leader.

Sarah, even though Abraham was weak and made mistakes…she wasn’t afraid. She built him up. And what came of that? Well, a miracle. Look, if your husband is 100 and you’re 90 and you get pregnant…we are talking a bona fide miracle.

Isn’t that what you need…a miracle? Wouldn’t it be miraculous that God changed your husband so that he would love you more, that he becomes a savior, a sanctifier and a satisfier? That’s going to take a miracle. And you have tried for 5 years and ten years and 20 years to change him. But you have never honored his position the way you should…you have blocked your miracle.

“But I’m scared.” Scared of who…God? God says He has your back. 1st Corinthians 11 says that if you dishonor your head, the angels will not help you. When you stop cussing him out, stop trying to change him…but instead you send smoke signals up to Him…He will come over, find out where you are…and be your deliverer.

So, it’s time to see what God can do because you are cooperating…because you have surrendered.

Hurray!!!

Faithful Follower,

Hurray, indeed!! I was wondering if I would ever get back to this and finish it. And I hate leaving things undone. It drives me crazy!!

In His arms.

Finally! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]T[/color][color:"red"]h[/color][color:"green"]a[/color][color:"purple"]n[/color][color:"blue"]k[/color][color:"brown"]s[/color] [color:"red"] M[/color][color:"green"]o[/color][color:"purple"]r[/color][color:"blue"]t[/color][color:"red"]a[/color][color:"green"]r[/color][color:"purple"]M[/color][color:"blue"]a[/color][color:"red"]n[/color][color:"green"]![/color]<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A++ for use of color!

In His arms.

MM, well done.

God bless.

Bump....

This is a great thread for those of you who are intersted in what the bible says the roles of husband and wife are.

AWESOME!!! FWH had just asked for this thread to be e-mailed to him overseas.

Thank you so much!!

MM is awesome...

Where are the men like him huh? One who actually follows the bible's teachings and truly puts his faith where it belongs...

Hope he and his family are doing well.

Bump

A Bump to the top for those who haven't read this....

bump

Mortarman;
Let me tell you a little bit about my sitch.
I am FWW, it's been more than 2 years with total and complete NC. My H says he is done....he doesn't 'feel' like he wants to work on our M and that he is with me because of the kids.....that he is not interested in a relationship with me.
I am Christian and I am repentant for what I did to God my H and my kids.....there was/is a lot of pain.

For the past months I have been trying and trying for my H to forgive me for I have done. I have done everything humanly possible (or so I thought). This past weekend I cried out to God and ask him what I was doing wrong. There was no answer at that very moment.
The next day, somebody told me that I had not worked on the things that my H needed me to change.....I asked what were those....I certainly had changed spiritually, I had matured.
The Lord revealed to me that those spiritual changes he did not recognize them or did not understand them because he is not Christian. And the most important thing that I needed to change was the time I spend with my family, especially with my kids, that there was very little time spent there (on my part). That men did not like that....(true??)
I work full time, go to school and I am doing my internship in a shelter for battered women. I do not have a lot of time to do pretty much anything else.
Well, the Lord pretty much revealed that I needed to give up my school, to give up my career.....I was telling him that I was afraid and to give me a sign....then I come to this forum and I read this;

OMG!! I can not believe this.....you have NO idea!! this is incredible....I am so happy that I found this....I know is going to hurt!!...but now I know the Lord is hearing my prayers!!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you very much!!
A.

bump!

Bump because this is that good, and a request of the Mortorman:

May I take your relevent posts from this thread and put them in a document to share with my married friends?

Angie,

Sorry I didnt see your post before now. I am glad you are listening to the Lord. He will direct your path, wherever that may lead.

I do not know what He would have you do specifically (e.g. leaving your career, school, etc). You will need to listen to Him.

I do know from what little I know of your sitch that you have put all of these things before your husband. And whether he is a believer or not, you cannot do that. As it says in the text above. Your husband will be won through your behavior, through your submission to what the Lord has asked of you.

Might I suggest more discussion on this here and with your pastor. On all of this. And of course, the primary way you will know His will is through prayer (as you have been doing).

I learned to ask this prayer when I didnt quite know what His will was: "Lord, I am not sure of your will here. So, I am trying to make the best decision possible. I am trusting you to put up a wall if this is the wrong direction...and to open a door if it is the right one."

And then, I would step forward on faith!

No matter what happens with your husband, the Lord will take care of you, if you follow His will.

Isnt it amazing what happens when we let go and let God???

Canwemakeit...you are free to post or print at will. Most of this was a recounting of a series of sermons I heard.

Hope it will help!

Well, unfortunately I can not do that at church. Our church is a mega-church and as you can Imagine my pastor doesn't know me personally.
I have two godly women that I pray with and they both have told me that this decision is very good for my family.


I am actually asking for this....I am eager to hear from the Lord. You know today is not a good day for me. As I have been seeing that my H has hardened his heart towards me.
He does not care about any single thing that I do or say...I feel like quitting but I know my feelings are not reliable either.
I think I have lost hope for this M.
Please feel free to give any advice or to ask questions if you wish.

Thanks,
Angie

Angie,

Bump your thread up and we can do it there!

Mortarman;
I do not have a thread, I felt I had nothing to say, nothing to contribute. What was I gonna say? "I'm a FWW and my H doesn't want to do anything with me and I do not know what to do"

I guess I did not want anybody to tell me my M had no hope, I am/was holding to the hope and to my faith and the promises that my Lord has given me.

You know, not everybody is going to understand that, that is the very reason I do not go to C. They will tell me that it takes 2 to work in a M.
Sorry I know is not a very good moment to vent right now.

Angie

Angie,

You are not unique. Neither is your husband! So, you need to stop thinking this way. Added to that, you do need your own thread. Many here have been thru what you and your husband have gone thru and are going thru.

Many times, I found God's voice here. So, please start your own thread and lets talk!!

Ok....done....Thanks,

Angie

OK, this may sound kinda weird and all but this is something I was wondering MM. This post as part of a husband's job in marriage:

Becoming Your Wife's Sanctifier...(Ephesians 5:25-29)


Does that mean at all helping her to heal the wounds caused by her previous life? Wounds inflicted to her by her parents?

Hey MM,

Peperband told me briefly about your story. She said it's a very inspirational read. She said that you did an awsome plan on your wife with Steve Harley and on the day of the final hearing your wife came around and decided to work on the marriage...

How about a thread with the short version so we can read it... I haven't been able to find your story.

Well, of course! You are her pastor. If she needs help, you give it. If you dont have the ability, you get those folks that can help you get the ability (pastor, counselor, etc).

Working on it. Hope to have it up shortly!

Thanks for your input. WW and I are in therapy right now and while it is doing absolutely NO good for the relationship because she is a WW, it is doing a good job helping me to help her heal her wounds inflicted by her parents. Last week she had a real breakdown in counseling because of the things her dad put her through including wanting to abort her and leaving for vacation the night she almost died from Lukemia. Her parents also used her as a pawn between them and that has hurt her.

We are going through Imago counseling and I am willing to keep it up simply because it is helping me to learn to heal her wounds for her and give her the love she really wants.

My W went through he!! as a child and didnt deserve for me to put her through it again as an adult. I have seen what I need to do to help her.

Thanks again.

No problem. As I have said...if you trust the Lord, He will show you the way.

One thing though...about counseling. I am a firm believer that counseling that concentrates too much on the past is not good. rehashing things from the past, especially painful things, does what exactly? I have met several counselors and therapists that have said concentrating on the past does nothing but bring up the past. You cant change what happened. All you do is bring back the pain.

Where it does help in a limited extent is to help free a person of some issues of the past.

So, please be careful. I have heard that the healing, many times, is just dropping the past and moving forward. Look at what the Harleys do. Do they concentrate on the past? Well, a little. They list out what needs werent met or what LBs were made. But then they have you get busy on the future doing things different. In counseling with Steve Harley, he doesnt let a spouse, for instance, go on and on about "he did that" or "She didnt do that." Too much discussion of the bad parts of our past just leave use depressed and not wanting to move forward.

The past (the bad parts) is best addressed when we are healthy, not when we are sick.

Just my two cents!

MM, in the meantime can you at least bump your old thread to the top so we can start reading it? Or is it gone for good? Thanks!

The Imago therapy is dealing with issues from the present and the issues from the present drag up parts of the past in childhood automatically. It is kinda weird, she will be talking about something she is feeling and it makes her feel like it did when this or that happened. Then I should be helping her to release it. It's kinda weird but makes some sense at the same time. Not too much stuff from the past, just how the present issues drag those old memories up and the old memories need to be done away with. Am I making any sense? lol

You are.

Another question...is your wife saved?

Eric...I am actually working on linking to the relevent threads (there were many over the 4 years). So, I am working on a cliff note version (with an update)...and then having a thread that links back to the relvent threads from the past. One I can put in my signature at the bottom. But that will take a little time! I should be able to get the cliff note version up shortly though.

I would have said yes before the A. She was baptised in February and was really getting into our church but then this. She seems to have turned from him lately.

MM,

Thanks, I look forward to reading your story. I am sure it will be inspiring.

E

Not done, but excellent thread!

Ok...I started yesterday reading this thread....sorry Mortarman...I think I'm going to have a lot of questions and here's the first one..(I hope it's not a stupid one)...you wrote this;



Do you think God made Adam passive?



We can't FORCE our husbands to take the leadership role...I know, I tried to do this for years....it doesn't work.

So, what are we supposed to do with a H that doesn't want to take the leadership in a "normal" marriage let alone in one that is dealing with the hurt and devastation of infidelity?

More to come....LOL

Thank you...

Angie

No. Adam chose to be passive. He knew what was right. he knew what the snake was saying was wrong. But he chose to be quiet and let his wife handle it.


Well, you can "force" them to take the leadership role by not taking it on yourself. I think I outlined it in that section also. Eve should have put it right back on Adam. Made him make the decision to eat from the tree. And if he doesnt make a decision? well, than neither does she!

You will see as you read on that while your husband is your head, he has his own head...and that is Jesus. If you do what you are supposed to do, and not do what he is supposed to do, God will see that and he will take care of your husband.

But that will take faith!

Hi Mortaman,

I am struggling day by day as a BS and my thread details all of the messy bits with my WH.

We are separated, he has discontinued contact with the OW (EA for 3 months) and only sees her rarely in a professional sense only.

Occasionally he wants to be with me, then he decides that I am not the woman he once knew and gets scared.

He sent me this text message last weekend after spending the day with the kids/me:-

"2M2L, I feel so upset, so annoyed and so empty after being with you. I'm ashamed of myself for thinjgs that I have done but I don't know you anymore. Even now after everything you continue to lie and twist the truth to cover up the daming things you've done. I can't be manipulated by you anymore. I can't move on from what you've done. I can't forgive you. I can't even write a text message without bashing my phone. I'm sorry but you cheating would have been easier for me to move on from. I hold you responsbile for us being in the situation we are in right now, not me. We were repairable until you... I wish I could say that I don't hate you but the truth is I really think that hate is the only emotion that I have left for you. I'm not sorry and the ball is in your court."

He believes that it was a best friend therefore not an affair.

He believes that I over-reacted and exposure to his boss, one colleague, a brother, his mother and the OW and her parents was way over the top and ruined us and his trust etc.

He knows I accessed at least 2 of his phone bills (confirmation of 300+ calls to her in a month after the bill hit $1,000 instead of $100).

He thinks I had him followed.

So, he thinks I have destroyed us. He had a PA 2 years after we married and has been verbally abusive in our marriage.

I didn't know about the abuse until I started posting here on MB and received the kind views of outsiders!

I still want to save my marriage. We have 2 very young children and I do love my H.

I became the head of the house - main wage earner, great job, he stayed home with kids, wrote music - not really successful as an independent artist but great with live gigs, I managed finances, he paid bills and cleaned the house and I did the washing.

It is all messed up and he stopped going to church after his first affair.

How can I get this on track bibically? Is there a way to still save this marriage? I read with interest your "Surrendering to your husband" thread and I want to take it all on. I need him to see my softness again instead of my razor tounge.

Any tips would be appreciated!

Thank you

2much,

Sorry to hear you are in this mess! But et me first say this...

If he objects to you exposing his affair, dont worry about it! Exposing is NOT hurting your marriage...the affair did. If he is upset because you gained intel on his secretive lifestyle, it is NOT hurting your marriage...the secrets have been.

Now, onto your sitch. I dont know your whole situation, but let me comment on what you have said here. You outlined all of the things he does and you do. As I outlined in the text in this thread, if you took out a piece of paper and wrote down how you serve your husband on one side of the paper, and then how he serves you...whose list would be longer? If your list is longer, then YOU are the husband and he is the wife!

And guess what? Deep down, neither of you are built that way, so being stuck in those roles makes both of you unhappy!

Your husband needs to be the man of the house. He needs that! You also need him to be the man of the house. So, what do you do?

First off...stop being the man! I am not saying that he doesnt do dishes or you dont go to work. I am saying that he is to serve you...and you are to submit to his headship (as long as it is in line with God's will). So, if something doesnt get done because he isnt doing what he is supposed to do...dont you walk in and do it for him!

So, please read on how to do this above. As I said there, what you want to do is to do your part as the wife, and then duck so God can take a 2x4 upsied his head! But that is going to take faith and trust in God.

Second thing I would do is to talk to him. Dont really defend yourself. It wouldnt matter anyway. But just have him open up and listen. Tell him your sorry he feels that way. Tell him you are sorry for taking on his roles. Listen to what he says during all of this, because in between the pain is the truth of what is going on inside him. And knowing what the REAL issues are will help both of you move forward.

Again, it is a rather simple process, but not at all easy. It isnt easy to let things fall by the wayside because he wouldnt take care of them and you have stopped doing them for him.

I hope this helps in some way. But dont try to over analyze the situation. It is very simple!

Thanks Mortaman for your thoughts on my situation.

I had been thinking for a while that he just felt like he wasn't needed anymore. I did take up everything and he just ended up being a border and playing with the kids and I picked up all of the slack.

We are currently separated so it is even harder, but whenever he visits there are jobs around for him to do. He came home the other day and I was mowing the lawn, always his job, and he took over. I started to say I'd do it but then let him in. He seems to like changing the light globes and doing the garden and fixing my car.

Small things, but it's a start I guess.

I hope one day soon we will have an opportunity to chat and open up. He is resisting that at the moment so I am just being amicable and friendly and trying to let my inner beauty develop and shine again. I just go so caught up in me and daily life and being a nag and a nasty person got easier. He hates me like that and with the few changes I have made, he's starting to like me again and I am starting to love me again!!!

Thanks again for your post Mortaman. I have printed it and am reading Proverbs too as well as letting go and letting God for my husband's side. You have been an inspiration and I too would love to read your struggle/recovery story.

Dont forget that you can "invent" things for him to do. He NEEDS to feel like his contributions are important. He needs his wife to need him. So, have things he can do and praise him for doing them.

And as you said, let God do the rest.

If you have any suggestions or ideas (for jobs and praise) I would really appreciate them.

I live in Australia so we're in summer. I guess I need the weeks poisoned and the fences put up too.

Now I just need to get him in the mood to help me out!

Thank you (& God)

Fabulous, if I may be so bold, this is something both of you could read and learn from.....

BTT

BUMP

I don't understand why this thread is listed among the "Notable Posts".

Many of the sentiments expressed by the OP appear to be in direct conflict with Marriage Builders Principles - especially the POJA and Negotiations. Some are even offensive...

Chris, for one thing, you are on the SAA forum! When you have fought an affair and survived, it places you in a position of respect! Mortarman has a great deal of respect from those in this community that have also fought an affair and survived.

Mortarman is also a Christian and expresses himself as such without apology. Many of his posts are notable... Even the ones you might find offensive!

He is one of the good guys! He has a recovered marriage!

He has helped many succeed as well!

I personally have a great deal of admiration for Mortarman and for his knowledge about the MB Program.

BTW Chris, None of those quotes you've highlighted are in opposition to the MB Program.

I cannot speak for her, but maybe it is the religious part? I am not religious, some of it IS hard to swallow and read through if you are not a person of religious faith. I am trying to get through the thread, however.

Mortarman wrote this thread FOR Those of the Judeo-Christian belief. He was ASKED by some other posters to write this. These other posters WERE of the Judeo-Christian faiths that were trying to get their marriage back into perspective after the destruction that accompanies an affair.

This thread is biblically based as well as MB based!

Hence the NOTABILITY!

If it's not for you, leave it where you found it!

ok, but why would you TRY to swallow if you do not believe in God? Why read a thread for Christians about Christianity if you have rejected Christianity? Like tst pointed out, the thread is FOR Christians. [the Harleys are devout Christians, btw] No one has to read it unless they want to.

POPE FRANCIS' ADVICE FOR A SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE

During the audience with engaged couples on Valentine's Day, some young people asked Pope Francis some advice to face marriage life and start together a new path of life.

Here is what Pope Francis told them: "Marriage needs to be worked upon every day, it is like doing a "craftsman" job!
Man helps his wife to be a better woman, and the woman helps her husband to be a better man.

The secret for a successful marriage is enclosed in three words: "EXCUSE ME, THANK YOU, I AM SORRY".

EXCUSE ME: courtesy is one of the qualities of God, sister of love.
We need to be able to enter into other people's lives with courtesy.
Courtesy protects love.

THANK YOU: being thankful is an important feeling, gratitude is a "flower growing in a noble land". Nobility of the mind is necessary in order to nourish gratitude. We need to be aware that the other person is a "gift of God". And for the gifts we receive we say "thanks!".

I AM SORRY: we say "sorry", because we all make mistakes, all of us, who doesn't? Raise your hand if you never make mistakes! Every person makes at least one mistake each day. The Bible says that even the righteous makes mistakes seven times a day. Therefore, let us FORGIVE, ALWAYS! In fact, let us always say SORRY! Let's not behave like Adam who, when God asked him, 'Adam, you ate the fruit I had forbidden you to eat?' he replied 'It was her, it's all her fault!'. We must not be like Adam, we must not blame others. Instead, we must acknowledge our own faults, we must say sorry and recognize our errors! Never forget to make peace before the day ends.

This is great! Thanks for posting it.