I need to move to plan B. Let's just say that my love bank balance is very low. I'm afraid that if I allow this to continue much longer, it will be overdrawn. I really don't want to lose everything positive that I feel for WW. I need help working on details. Here are some questions I have.

1. I need to talk to a lawyer about what the legal ramifications of kicking WW out would be. I don't have any money to do this right now, but I don't want to hurt my chances for custody later. Should I do this without legal council?

2. Should I wait for plan B until I have a separation agreement ready to go?

3. Would using my mother as an intermediary be a bad idea? There is really no one else I would trust with that, but I don't think WW would be OK with that. She has alienated all of our "good" mutual friends. Anyone she would be comfortable with, I wouldn't.

4. If I can't find a good intermediary, would the bare minimum contact be OK? She comes over, I leave right away without a word?

5. She has no way to get an apartment right now. I am basically pushing her straight into OM's house (ok, trailer). Is this really a good idea?

6. It seems like she is basically waiting for this to happen, almost daring me to make her leave. Should I let her have this as her excuse? "Well, you kicked me out, I had to do what I had to do."

Any help would be much appreciated.

^bump^

Here is my modified plan B letter that had a lot of help from ark on another thread. I am putting it here because all of my plan B posts will be here from now on. This is still very open for constructive criticism:

WW,

I'm sorry you have to be reading this right now, I am also very sorry that I have to be writing it.

I want to sincerely apologize for any pain I may have caused by not making you feel appreciated or special. I will regret that for the rest of my life. I have been, and will continue to work on anything about myself that may have contributed to making our marriage an unhappy place for you.

It is with a heavy heart that I write the following lines. While I am willing to do anything and everything to save our marriage and prove my love for you, I can not stand by and watch while everything that was once important to us both is destroyed.

I still want to love you. You have chosen to continue your affair. I have chosen to allow our life together to continue to this point, because I wanted to show you that I still love you and our marriage can be saved. I think I have said and done everything I can.

At this point in my life I have to remove myself from this triangle. Until you can put an end to your relationship with OM and commit to working on our relationship, I think any more contact with you would be harmful to me.

The kids and I will stay here, and you are welcome to come and be with them any time you want. It's just that I will not be here when you do. You can call to set a time when you want to see them, and when you arrive, I will leave. This will be the extent of my contact with you. I understand that finding a place to live will be hard on you right now, and I hate that it has to be this way. Unfortunately, allowing our lives to continue this way is hard on me as well as DD5 and DS4.

Please understand that I still love you very much. I just cannot continue to support your current behavior. I hope and pray that you decide to put an end to you relationship with OM so we can focus on building the marriage we both deserve. I love being your husband and look forward to showing you what that means.

You once said that you loved me because you felt that with me, anything was possible. Anything you dream is possible with or without me. I would just love the opportunity to help in any way that I can. I do not want to be just a chapter in your life. I want to have the lead role. I must do this to preserve the feelings I have for the mother of my children, and my first and only love.

Respectfully,
DKM

Anyone?

DKM, From what I can see you have only been in plan A less than 2 months. Have you done a really good plan A? Have you identified and changed those things in you that hurt your M? I have never done plan B so I don't think I am qualified to comment on the letter part. I could not see in your posts if you have read SAA or Torn Assunder.

I am not switching to plan B right now. I am getting things in place for what I am beginning to see as inevitable. The fog is growing thicker and thicker. I am afraid six months is going to be too long. I think I can hold out about another month if things continue down this path.

I really think that recovery will not be possible if I allow much more of this. I am really starting to question exactly what it is I am fighting for.

I think I have done a very good plan A, I get brief moments of fog-lifting once in a while to keep me on track. I have read SAA. Am going to read Torn Asunder.

Ok, give us a little more about your interactions. How is she with the kids? Does she try to hide the PA from you?

OK. As far as our interactions go, sometimes we have a great time together, like nothing happened. Other times, she gets very distant. She will not sleep in the same bed with me, or touch me at all. She talks about future plans together, but claims to have no hope for us.

The PA is most definitely still going on. She still tries to hide it, but when she disappears for a couple of days at a time, it is pretty hard to do. Things have been going downhill pretty fast for me since the weekend that she just disappeared for four days (see Meltdown Weekend) That has happened two more times since for 2 days each time. I am gradually increase the amount of pain that this causes her through exposure and enforcing my "boundaries" as discussed here.

Her interaction with the kids has not been good. She claims to really miss them, but then neglects them as I pointed out here.

DKM, have you seen an attorney yet? Does your state have legal separation? I am very concerned what is going on here and for your children. What are you doing to protect them? Your sitch is in need of some expert help. I am going to do a call out to Melody Lane and ARK for you.

DKM, I think your first step is to see if she will move out. I agree that you need to go to Plan B just because she is so destructive. So, first steps first. Tell her that her behavior is causing great harm to you and the kids and you need her to move until she quits carrying on her affair.

Before you do that, explain to me what things you have done to end her affair. Have you exposed? Have you told her this is unacceptable?

She took care of a lot of the exposure herself. She told her friend. Her friend told me and her mother. I told my mom and dad and one of my sisters. I tell all of the above everytime she does not come home. OM has no one to expose to.

I am using the strategy that Lemonman and Mortarman came up with in my thread about boundary enforcement. I up the level of "crisis creation" with each occurence. Basically building up to a critical level where I will have no choice but to switch to plan B.

I have isolated the children from this mess as well as I can. They are no longer at home with her during the day. School starts in a few weeks and this will not be an issue anymore. If she wants to pick them up from the babysitter and actually do something with them, I encourage this. She was a very good mom before the depression set in. I want her to remember this.

I know plan B is inevitable, and when I answer the questions at the beginning of this post, I will be doing it. As far as a time frame, I am thinking around Sept 1st if things continue in this direction.

Well, kind of a crappy weekend. Friday night WW went to work, and came home right after. Saturday, she was very wierd all day. I overheard her on the telephone crying and saying "I know, I know, I know". She was fighting with OM. I felt like saying something like "Trouble in Paradise?" but I didn't. I left for a little while. When I came back, she babbled. A lot.

WW: "I can't do this anymore".
ME: "Then stop."
WW: "I have been trying to ignore OM."
ME: "Good. How has that been going?"
WW: "You know, all of this stuff you are doing doesn't make me feel better about us, it only makes me feel worse."
ME: "Stuff?"
WW: "You watch me like a hawk, pay attention to everything I do, you do laundry, take care of the kids, rub my feet...." (hehe, I knew she noticed)
ME: "How does that make you feel worse?"
WW: "Why couldn't you have done that before? None of this would have happened"
ME: "Are you saying I never did any of those things before?"
WW: "Well, no... You did..." silence...
WW: "I don't want to be around you, but I want to see my kids."
ME: "You don't have to be around me to see them."

Well, you've all heard it before. But at least she is noticing. That night, she decided she did not want to go to a family party. I said, I can't make you go, but I think you would have a good time. I will bring the kids home at 11:00P because I have to meet (an old friend I haven't seen in years), will you be here for them? "yes." Are you sure you won't come with us? "yes."

I went to the party, the kids went to my parents for the night. I went home. She was gone. No note, no phone call, nothing. Pushed redial. Last number was OM. I went and had a good time with my old friend. Came home about 3AM. Nothing. Woke up Sunday morning. Nothing. Took the kids swimming all day and to dinner and rented a movie. Nothing.

About 6 this morning she rolls in acting like everything was hunk dorry. I had just woke up and was kind of groggy. Here is the exchange, best as I can remember.

ME: "So that's it then. You're home"
WW: "No"
ME: "Where are you then."
WW: "I just thought I'd come home so you could go to work."
ME: "I'm dropping them of at my mom's in 2 hours"
WW: "Call her and tell her you don't need to"
ME: "I'm not leaving the kids with you when you are out until 6AM. I don't want them to have to fend for themselves all day. They are 4 and 5 years old."
WW: "FINE"
WW: "You deserve someone better than me. You should go get laid."
ME: "You right, I do deserve to be treated better than you are treating me. And I don't want to get laid, I am still married."

She stormed in to our bedroom, grabbed some clothes and said:

WW: "I'm leaving."
ME: "I wish you wouldn't, I would like to talk some more."
WW: "I don't want to sit here and get talked to like a 17 year-old."
ME: "Then maybe you should stop acting like one."

She left. I went back inside. The kids were awake and grumpy. We laid down and my bed and had a gigglefest and we all three went to sleep. I was late for work. But cheered up a lot.

A couple of hours later, she left me a voicemail:
"Listen, I really, really am sorry I just split out like that. I am an [censored]. I don't know what to say. I'll call you later today...." She thought she would go to her dad's (4 hours away), but she is not in a state of mind to drive that far. (She has never driven that far by herself). I think that the first time she has said I'm sorry since the direct aftermath of D-day.

So there was my weekend.

Does it sound like I should go ahead with plan B or give it some more time?

Well, WW never did call yesterday, or last night, or today for that matter. I called OM's cell phone and left this message:

"I don't know if you check these or not. If WW is with you, tell her to give her children and I a call to let us know if she's alive or not. We're kind of worried about her. If she's not with you call and let me know so I can search elsewhere. Either way, I won't answer, someone just leave a voicemail. Thanks."

WW called this morning. We are going to lunch. Will post when I get back. I am going to take a stand. This bullsh!t can not continue.

Well, lunch was odd. I feel like a lot was said but nothing really changed. She basically said that what was going on was not fair to me. I agreed. She basically outlined my plan B. I don't know how to respond.

I told her that my extended family found out about what was going on through one of her friends. Her friend's physical therapist was my cousin. She said "that is so sad about DKM and WW" and proceeded to tell her the whole story. My cousin told her mom, the family gossip, and it spread like wildfire. Does this help or hurt?

I also told her I was planning on taking the kids down to the lake Monday because we have done nothing this summer. I asked if she wanted to go. It could be the last time we all go somewhere together. She started crying. She said that was sad and said she would think about it.

I wanted to give her the plan B letter, but I think I should wait to see if she goes on the trip. What do you all think?

Is she reading here?

No

She said "I don't think it is fair to you for us to be living in the same house. I need to leave, but I have nowhere to go. I don't want the kids to have to leave, but I want to see them (when I'm here your not), etc."

I would be sure to tell her the kids stay at home with you. Hmmm.. you really need to someone to help you with this. Change your title to call out to Mel, ARK or others with plan B experience.

The kids would be at home with me, but if she wanted to come see them I would leave. That is basically what I said in my plan B letter.

How do I change the title??

Go to the first post on the thread and hit edit. It will allow you to edit the title.

Yes, leaving while she visits is fine just don't let her take the kids with her when she moves

So should I tell her that she should move out as long as her affair is going on and she is disappearing for days on end, but then keep plan Aing?

How good has your plan A been? How is your love bank balance? How are the kids holding up?

I would call it very good. Like this exchange from earlier in this thread. If you look through the fog babble, I think she is basically telling me I am doing well plan A wise.

WW: "I can't do this anymore".
ME: "Then stop."
WW: "I have been trying to ignore OM."
ME: "Good. How has that been going?"
WW: "You know, all of this stuff you are doing doesn't make me feel better about us, it only makes me feel worse."
ME: "Stuff?"
WW: "You watch me like a hawk, pay attention to everything I do, you do laundry, take care of the kids, rub my feet...." (hehe, I knew she noticed)
ME: "How does that make you feel worse?"
WW: "Why couldn't you have done that before? None of this would have happened"
ME: "Are you saying I never did any of those things before?"
WW: "Well, no... You did..." silence...


Getting very low. Like "What am I fighting for? I should go straight to plan D" low.


Excellent really. They rarely even ask about her. My son's tantrums have settle down because he is spending lots of days at Grandma's with other kids and actually doing things. As opposed to watching TV while mommy slept or talked on the phone (to OM).

"So should I tell her that she should move out as long as her affair is going on and she is disappearing for days on end, but then keep plan Aing?"

No.

She should not move out if you are still doing a good plan A and want to continue.

I should read up on your sitch, first, before I walk all over your thread. But I can say the general advice from the Plan A/B experts is consistently: Plan A in person. Plan B from afar.

If you are at the end of your Plan A (about 3 or 4 months max for men) then she should move out, you and kids get formal legal and financial protection, and from then on correspond only through an intermediate. Plan B means no more meeting her ENs whatsoever – not even conversation - until she agrees to your terms for M recovery.

Yes it drives her into the arms of OM. It is supposed to. He cannot meet her ENs as well as you. That is the whole point, as hurtful as it is to imagine.

You are in a tough place. I have been there. My FWW moved out the day after D-Day 2. I went into an unofficial Plan B (this was before I found SAA and MB). But, I was pretty dark and I firmed it up even more, after finding MB, with the Plan B letter.

Things have progressed much better than after D-Day 1, six years ago - when I did not have a plan.

The darkness of Plan B affected her immensely. It took almost six months but she finally requested the terms to negotiate recovery. So I resent her the Plan B letter and she agreed to everything.

By then I was not so sure it’s what I wanted. The good people here on MB are helping me decide. But that story can wait.

I have to leave. But read up on Plan B. Do it right and it may succeed. Do it half-a’ed and it will just make things worse.

With prayers,

By legal protection, do you mean a formal separation agreement? I can not think of a good intermediary. See the first part of the thread.

It will be a formal legal separation in some states. In others you can sign the equivalent of a notarized contract. Not all Plan B couples need this level of protection. But it sounds to me like you do.

Bottom line, you do not want to be responsible for her finances - say if she gets in a car accident, while living elsewhere. Or, she and OM run up a huge credit card debit. That happened to my brother and he was held responsible for all the bills in their entirety since they had no legal separation of finances.

Also, you should have in advance a visitation schedule and financial support agreement for the children.

Re intermediator - If all else fails use a local police station to transfer the children during visits. Tell them why you are there - they will agree to help.

With prayers,

DKM, I think you should move to Plan B NOW and not allow her back in the house. Her behavior is destructive and grossly disrespectful to you and the children - and she knows it.

You should never leave your home to accommodate her, she shouldn't come back into the house once you go to Plan B. Letting her back in the house only gives her a home "fix" that allows her to continue the affair longer. I would change the locks now and deliver your Plan B letter to her.[not in person, though]

As far as visitation, I would tell her to set up visitations at your mother's house through your mother.

Melody, Your plan sounds very effective, but not something I can do without talking to a lawyer. I plan on doing that, but for now, I think I will let her move out on her own (if that is what she is really doing), then move to plan B with my mom as the intermediary.

Well, I started plan B yesterday at lunchtime. She had basically said she would leave last Friday, it didn't happen, and knew it wouldn't, so yesterday at lunch, I gave her the letter. We will still be in contact with each other about the children and money, but that is it. I have recieved one phone call so far. This afternoon she called to check if the kids had made it to school all right. (It is DD5's second week of Kindergarten and DS4's second week of all-day preschool.) I said "Yes". She also said she used the check card for $8 at Wal Mart. I said "OK". She said "Is there anything you want to say to me?". I said "No". She was obviously upset. I did not let her draw me into asking why. She said "Allright then, goodbye." I said "goodbye".

I know that a lot of you experts would tell me to go totally dark, but this is just not feasible for me at this time. I will not be drawn into any conversations about anything except money and the kids. That is it. I can do it. It is hard, but I can do it.

It feels really good to not be involved in the daily drama that my life has been since DDay. I see this as a win-win for me. I will not be affected by her swinga anymore. Either she is able to fix whatever is wrong in her self and come back. Or she won't and I will be happy that I am not still with her.

By the way. When I gave her the letter. I had her read it. I said that "everyhting I want to say about us is in that letter. Any further conversation will be about how this will happen." We talked a bit about how she would move out. When she would have access to her belongings. (While I am at work.) How visiting the kids would work. etc...

We gave each other a big long hug and kiss (that was unexpected, first kiss since Dday). She cried and we went our seperate ways.

Well, here I am. Third Day. Feels good and sucks at the same time. Brief phone conversation today. She called. I told her she could pick up her phone at home on her way to work (I won't be there). I told her she could hit the ATM for $250 for food and gas money. We made plans for the kids tomorrow and then she tried to draw me in to a longer conversation. She said she would like it if the kids and I dropped by her work tonight to eat. I said that that probably wouldn't happen. I had to get them home and bathed for school pictures tomorrow. I said "I really need to go now." She said bye, but I could tell she was starting to cry.

Good job, so far. Plan B is very difficult at first, but it gets easier and easier. Also it gets you off the darn rollercoaster, and gives you a sense of peace.

Hang in there, and know that you are doing the very best thing for your children and marriage.

Sounds like your WW is more attached to you (not just your kids) than she'd like to think. This is good, just don't let her pull you out of the plan b darkness. She want's to regain the control and power that you have taken.

Keep it up!

I am kind of easing into the darkness. She is going to make it easier. Last night, she had to close (1AM) and then open (6AM) at work. She asked if she could come and sleep at the house. I said that it would be OK because we would be asleep when she got there and wake up after she left. About 5AM or so, her cell phone rang. It woke me up, but she did not know that. I overheard this part of her conversation:

"Hi baby."
"I know baby."
"blah blah blah baby. work. blah blah blah baby".
"I love you too baby." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

It hurt to hear that, but it also helped me firm up my resolve to darken up my plan B. Next time she asks to stay between shifts I will politely refuse.

Should I say anything about what I heard? I think I should if she asks why she can't stay there next time. I could say something like "Overhearing that phone conversation you had the other morning is exactly the reason I cannot have you around me anymore."

What do you all think?

She called today to tell me that she could not pick up the children at school because she would not be off work in time. I said that I would make arrangements. The arrangements are made indefinitely. My sister has a kid at the same school. If WW is not there, she picks them up and they stay with her until I get off work.

She was planning on picking them up, and taking them home. I would find something to do until around bed time. She would leave when I got there. She called about 3:30 this afternoon on her way home from work. I told her that DS5 has a meeting tonight at 6:30 to sign up for Camp Fire Girls. She was exhausted and thought she had the flu or something. She asked if I could take care of them. I said sure. She said she would call later about tomorrow night. I said "ok, goodbye". Am I doing OK?

^^^