Marriage Builders
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Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:22 AM
Cheating is having inappropriate relations with someone other than your spouse while married. That is a matter of fact and definition, rather than a matter of public opinion.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:24 AM
a·dul·ter·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dlt-r, -tr)
n. pl. a·dul·ter·ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adultery
Posted By: Elle_35 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:36 AM
Hi a1. If you want to work on your marriage you've come to the right place. And I have to commend you for stepping up to the plate when it comes to financially supporting your wife and son.

I have to say that your poll makes me smile, and wonder, "Hm... if Mrs. a1 were to put together a poll, what would IT look like?" (ie, Was it Abuse? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

If she's not willing to move back yet, maybe she'd be willing to fill out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire? Did you try counselling before she left?

I hope you're able to reconcile & work things out.
Posted By: 2long Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:41 AM
Yep, no if's and's or buts.

You had an affair.

Different subject: Any chance that your wife left you because she was having an affair in November 2003?

-ol' 2long
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:46 AM
Do you know whether or not she had also cheated? What would she state as the cause for the separation? What were the issues in the marriage that precipitated the separation? Did she distant herself from you after the birth of your child?

Did she have post-partum depression? What was your work schedule?

Do you know which or each other's ENs were lacking in your relationship?

Do you understand the necessity of boundaries in a marriage which clearly define what is appropriate for opposite sex friendships?

It is best to maintain your moral integrity until the divorce is final. That is also wise when you had hopes to save the marriage.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 12:50 AM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:54 AM
I say YES it was ADULTERY, by legal definition. However, don't think you can call it cheating, which Webster's defines as, "To use unfair or dishonest methods to gain an advantage, or to take something away from or keep from having something by dishonest tricks."

My opinion (as a newbie, so it doesn't count for much): pay less attention to your poll and more attention to the triggers as Trix points out above. Lots of blame to spread around, but if you'reboth going to make it work, you need to think about what you can both do now!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:58 AM
Quote
BTW, I am not religious and do not share the traditional christian beliefs and simply want feedback from current society not dictionary quotes please.

MelodyLane you are quite the religious person so here are a number of definitions of adultery from the bible and they don't match your perfect dictionary definition. Thus I am wondering what and how people define cheating today.

But my religion, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with it. Nor do any of those verses contradict the dictionary definition. You can change the verbiage and play mental masturbation games all day long, it won't change the fact that having sexual relations with someone other than your spouse is adultery.

The "pulse of the public" will not answer your question, words have specific meanings that transcend public opinion.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:01 AM
Quote
I say YES it was ADULTERY, by legal definition. However, don't think you can call it cheating, which Webster's defines as, "To use unfair or dishonest methods to gain an advantage, or to take something away from or keep from having something by dishonest tricks."

Dictionary definition of cheating:

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v. tr.
To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.
To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal. To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cheat
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 01:04 AM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:06 AM
Quote
BTW, I am not religious and do not share the traditional christian beliefs and simply want feedback from current society not dictionary quotes please.

Well, I believe I am "current society" and the last time I looked, the English language was defined by "current society" in the dictionary.

Words have specific meanings, my friend, and changing the word will not change the ACT, unfortunately. I can call my dog a baloney sandwich, but unfortunately, he will still be a dog. He will never be a baloney sandwich.
Posted By: CSue Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:08 AM
a1b,

Just curious - what difference does it make what the pulse of society is today? Why would that be relevant?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:08 AM
Quote
MelodyLane obviously you have issues that didn't quite get resolved as you are quite fervant on this topic. You opinion is noted now please move on to another thread.

Thanks Original Poster

Perhaps I have said something that has upset you? Let's talk about it!
Posted By: CSue Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:10 AM
Mel,

With my dog, if you use the right tone of voice he would come if called bologne sandwich! Lol - I tried it and he did!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:16 AM
Quote
Mel,

With my dog, if you use the right tone of voice he would come if called bologne sandwich! Lol - I tried it and he did!

lol A yankee dog, no doubt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> **snort**
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:48 AM
As with all of our stories, which I'm just beginning to absorb, there is clearly a lot more to the story than time or prudence dictates. Just as it is clear that MelodyLane has strong opinions, I'm willing to bet (before I've read her story) that she is basing her strong opinions on her history.

MelodyLane is cool because she DOES say stuff that gets us going. I'm glad she has "given me a good shake" because it helps me focus on what is most important to me.

A1B2C3...(like that handle, BTW), I'm a newbie, and haven't had a D-day yet. I did a poll yesterday. My poll? I gave background on my story and asked "Is he having an A?" Kinda similar to your question, except I provided my limited circumstantial evidence, and asked an opinion. I think most/maybe all who responded said h-yes, are you an idiot? Of course he's cheating! I did a lot of undergrad and graduate work in statistics, and I can tell you that "WE" are not the pulse of society. "WE" are the "Pulse of those who were wronged and are/were very PO'd about it!"
Random ramblings, but if it is important to you what the "fly on the wall" thinks, then to to a totally unrelated site for your poll. (Maybe a Harry Potter fan club or something.) After your poll, I'd suggest you forget about the answer, and get back here and do some MB, if you feel inclined to save it. I'm still not sure if I want to MB, but I know if/when I do, that these are the folks I need to keep me grounded. You have my best wishes.

Here's my first quote for everyone:
"Today is only yesterday's tomorrow!"
From Uriah Heep, Demons and Wizards album
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 01:58 AM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:04 AM
Right. Sort of the equivalent of the "Take home test". The teacher sends it home with you, tells you not to look up answers or call friends, but "wink, wink!" don't bring it back unless you've got all the answers right. Legal separation is kind of the take-home-test of marriage. Ok, you flunked but got an A at the same time! (Bad boy! LOL)

As someone with kids in the picture and a WH who is yet to know I'm on to him, I can say that children, in my opinion, are a very noble reason for trying to make the M work. I hope to see you when we bothe make it to the recovery side!
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 02:16 AM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:24 AM
Ok, now that's a piece of advice I can use. See, I knew there was a reason I was watching this thread.... Something told me I could get a "kernel" of wisdom from this.

BTW, I think my WS is having the A with a govt' employee in the DC area...should we compare cell numbers? (Just kidding!) In any event...This will be my new mantra: NO LEGAL SEPARATIONS: THE ONLY LEGAL SEPARATION IS THE BIG D!
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 02:30 AM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:38 AM
a1b2c3...
agree, agree! Could be something about their lifestyle. My H is merely a much admired consultant in the whole arrangement. My fortune (or misfortune) is that H has NEVER been into quick relationships. I know first-hand he does not feel a connection to women unless they share many hours of soul baring, before the other kind of baring. Many women find that makes him more attractive, that he doesn't like women until he likes their mind. Up til now, I've felt pretty secure, since he doesn't get much long-term repeated access to the same people. Somehow, he had enough access to plant a seed, and his cell records have indicated a growing EA for the past 3 months, without any physical contact. Unfortunately for me, by the time the actual "contact" happens, he's going to be in pretty deep. (No pun intended!) Puts me in a bad spot...I can't inflect myself into their relationship, because they are already connecting on a different plane than we currently have. I guess I'm hoping he'll see the kids, the house, the family connections, blah blah, and see that his roots with me grow deeper. Might take a while for the halo of the A to wear off first.
Posted By: ACTdontreact Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:53 AM
IM - found you...everywhere. Glad to see a1b2 calmed down and posting as well. This place is soooooo addictive.
Posted By: Susan Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:57 AM
Quote
Husband Born in 1976, 2004 Income $278,000, White
Wife Born in 1978, 2004 Income $35,000, White


What does race and income have to do with anything? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Susan
Posted By: VeryTrulyYours Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 03:33 AM
I like your posts ima.

A1, The only opinions that count are Gods,yours and your wife's. You know what God's is and I can't see your wife's side of it from your post.

Seems to me you are preoccupied with money? Could this be a LB?

I say forget about the poll and put the effort into the marriage. No, it won't be the same Thank God.However,
I do believe you can have a better one. For the best interests of your son, open your heart and mind to working on making it work.

PS you slept with a womem you only dated for 2-3 weeks????
Have you been tested for STDS?
Talk about a LB. Best to do it before your wife comes home.

Since U like bible verses

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church anfd gave himself up for her.

Faith05
Posted By: Send me on my way Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 10:29 AM
My XW told me I "cheated" on her when I was with someone after all the papers were signed and we waited on the court clerk to finalize (in NY State it could take 6 months). We had not slept together in the same room for over a year. Had not had sex in well over a year. She filed false papers to get me removed from my home while serving me with divorce papers.......

So...this is not about social "norms" or society...it is about being a human. Why did I do what I did? I was lonely. As far as I was concerned I was divorced the moment I was served. I could not stop it. ******, by law I could not speak to her or I was going to jail. So in the eyes of teh law and God I was unfaithful...I do not care because I am human. That is how I feel about what this guy did. He's human and his wife met not a single EN. She left him, they split their assets, against his wishes. This is not how it works now is it? I know that my church, Catholic, says divorce is wrong....so I am already a sinner from the point of my divorce right??

This gets sticky because now my XW and I have reconciled and are in recovery....it still comes up...that I cheated too...and it's a mute point. There is nothing for us to discuss...
Posted By: nikko Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 11:06 AM
send me on my way---we arent saying we dont get why he did it, or even why it is apealing to someone in that sitch....we are saying that until the divorce is final YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. period. he asked if it was cheating, well yes until you are divorced, to me it is cheating. now ask me if i undersdtand why it happened and why it looked so good? of course i get it and understand. however i, myself, believe until it is finalized, and you properly heal and grieve and work out all the whys.....go it alone. lol

i am also glad A1 you are still posting.....this is a great place if you want to build a solid marriage!
Posted By: new jersey Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 11:31 AM
It doesn't matter if it was cheating or not. You need to work on your marriage and I'd start with a good plan a if you want to work this out. Men do not usually leave to go nowhere, so maybe there was something going on before, maybe not. The bottom line? Do you want to be right or do you want to be married to him? Forget the symantics and move on. I am catholic, we don't divorce (we're not supposed to) so in God's eye, it is cheating. But really, it doesn't matter at this point, you just pick up the pieces and move on. She wasn't that great if he wants to come home. Do you still want him?
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 11:44 AM
newjersey makes a good point, and so does send me. First, it's water under the bridge now, and second only the legalese is relevant when looking at the earlier behavior. Pretty clear when W moved out and legal separation happened, D was imminent. Just remember that this audience is much more fine-tuned about infidelity than your typical American. Like I said before, this poll is much less scientific than a true random one, since all of us are very tender about the subject. Do what you need to do to get your Plan A going. If W is coming home, find a good MC to discuss the past and the future, as it applies to the future of your marriage. My gut says you have a lot more chance for full recovery than many of us.
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 12:43 PM
It seems unlikely that she separated bc of an A right after the baby was born. It sounds very possible she had post partum depression.
Why do you think it is so important that you supported her financially? YOu are married and obligated to do that. It sounds like you did not do much to work on the M. Of course she didn't either. Yes you cheated! What do you mean no sex without permission? Guess what? With or without permission, the law says it is adultery. Melody Lane is VERY tough, but listen to her, along with everyone else. Then you will get a balanced approach. In order for you to work on the M, you need to be able to identify what you have done wrong and feel true remorse. YOu both do. Legal separations are bogus, IMHO. Don't be on a "high horse" and don't be a victim. No one forced you to have sex! It was your choice. And what is up with people able to have sex with someone and then just "break it off" with a person without any sadness over it? Having sex just is not taken seriously enough anymore, and that stinks.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:02 PM
I have been called "tough" [or "black and white"] on this thread for simply looking up words in the dictionary. Don't normal folks use the dictionary to get their word definitions? Where, pray tell, do they get their definitions then? Words do have meanings, and the truth is the truth. Don't kill the messenger if the truth is unpalatable to you.

The poster asked the definition of cheating and was angry when given exactly what he asked for. How very strange.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:07 PM
It's real simple. Cheating is another word for adultery, here is the definition of adultery:

a·dul·ter·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dlt-r, -tr)
n. pl. a·dul·ter·ies
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.

What is so difficult about all this? Could it be that the poster does not want to accept the truth?
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:16 PM
Melody Lane--I appreciate your black and white statements on the subject. You are right, adultery is adultery. Heck, the Bible says that having sex with ANYONE other than your FIRST SPOUSE is adultery. I think that I believe that. And you know what, I am the WW! ML--I just have experienced with you that b/c you don't show compassion to WS, it is very hard to hear your message as a WS. It is black and white. I have no argument there! But in order to save the M, it is vital that both see and admit their part, I believe. I think that it is just as important to be confrontational to the BS. You told my H that he should D me and you never confronted him on his actions, which included at least one ONS that he admitted to. He never seemed to even grasp what that did to me, esp that he kept it secret for FOUR YEARS-even through my confessions, first D filing, and reconciliation attempt. No reconciliation attempt is possible unless both spouses are honest with themselves and the other, IMHO. An A is a very very poor way to cope with pain in one's life and in one's M, but I think it is so important for the WS to feel that the BS understand that it is a coping mechanism for something. Also, D is so darn easy to get nowadays. And once lawyers get involved, it takes on a life of ones own. There has to be hope up until the day you sign the papers. And one other thing, I don't think this couple was CLOSE to D. Otherwise, they would have filed for the D, instead of a separation. I think that they are playing games with eachother instead of talking things out. They are both acting out on their pain....
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:23 PM
aao, I am sorry you have a resentment about one of my previous posts or my level of "compassion", but that has nothing to do with this thread and is not my issue. The point is that words do have meanings and using the proper meaning of a word does not mean one is black and white, it simply means they are accurate. If you have a problem with the meaning of the word, then you should write to Mr. Dictionary and lodge a complaint. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:30 PM
This is exactly what I am talking about. I said adultery is wrong and that is WAS adultery. You are sooooo offensive, and no one listens when they are offended. There is a way to speak the truth with compassion.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:38 PM
Quote
This is exactly what I am talking about. I said adultery is wrong and that is WAS adultery. You are sooooo offensive, and no one listens when they are offended. There is a way to speak the truth with compassion.

aao, like I said previously, that is not my issue, but yours. You can easily put me on ignore and then you wouldn't have to worry about be offended anymore. Hope you get over your offense. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:41 PM
I am NOT offended. He was. Just drop it. I think you should stay away from WS until you get over your bitterness. Your posts to WS reek of bitterness. I will ignore you and post to this WS bc I think that I can help him. Hopefully some can look beyond your bitterness and see the truth in what you say.
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:48 PM
Like you, a1, I had many viable reasons/EXCUSES for cheating. But, the fact is I CHEATED and so did you. You have to see how wrong you were to cheat and then you and your W can work from there. It is a poor coping mechanism to cheat. Your needs were not being met by your W, but you did not protect yourself against that fact. I so agree with you on the separation issue. My H moved out and it was the KISS of death! You have such a great chance here to make your M a great one. Keep reading and posting!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 01:53 PM
aao, if it's alright with you, I'll post to whomever I choose, in the style I choose. Since you seem to have such great personal issues with my posts, you should just put me on ignore to save yourself this great anxiety. You can only control yourself, dear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:02 PM
Come on AAO, as a fellow southerner you should appreciate this down home no nonsense brand of advice...you really can learn from it, but you know that...Melody has actually come to my aid in a situation where I was being unfairly attacked and remember, I too am a WW...what's up with you today(I ask YOU, cuz ya know we ain't changin the ole Melster-tee hee)...are you okay? Sorry I haven't emailed you back, I haven't forgotten about you and will do so soon...Take Care of You...

Regarding this thread, I do agree with Melody...the poster asked for yes or no, which is a "black and white" answer...so, he got what asked for just not what he wanted...

Melody, my YANKEE husband, Mr. Wondering, likes your style of "tap dancing"...he says, when she's been called a b!%$h, she comes back with, "I'm not an a$$!"...Too Funny!

Now, on to a1b2...$278,000/yr....TOOT! TOOT!

Btw, this is our 100th post, we are making it together on our 8th wedding anniversary...we are laughing together, so glad to be here...just wanted to stir the pot a little on "our" day... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. & Mrs. Wondering
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:20 PM
Quote
Melody, my YANKEE husband, Mr. Wondering, likes your style of "tap dancing"...he says, when she's been called a b!%$h, she comes back with, "I'm not an a$$!"...Too Funny!

So I am not the only southern gal who shamed the family by marrying a damnyankee! Mr W is alright for a yankee.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:30 PM
Melody...yes, my family had a really hard time dealing with my "mixed marriage" in the beginning...til they finally realized that the "yankee race" wasn't all bad...Ha Ha Ha!!!

My first joke to Mr. W...What's the difference between a yankee and a dam# yankee? All the yankees went home...(he was living in Atlanta at the time...)

His first joke to me(AND my "dyed in the wool" family)...General Sherman is quite a hero here, isn't he? (BLASPHEMY-NO, I said!) To which he replied, "Well, he may not be a hero, but he sure can build a fire!!!"

The Wonderings
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:36 PM
"mixed marriage?" hahaaa Yes, I can relate very much. It's a cardinal sin to marry a carpetbagger, but a double sin to bring the boy back home! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 02:51 PM
Congrats to the wonderings, you give us all hope. BTW, I had to go back to the top, and look at the survey. Did you notice a1b2c3... DID NOT ask for yes/no only? (I noticed because I made my survey y/n only, and was surprised when he did not. Therefore, IMHO, a1b2c3... is most likely trying to see where his actions lie on the infidelity spectrum. Correct me if I'm wrong, a1b2.. So, can we all agree that "On the spectrum of adultery, this falls somewhere behind sleeping with one's SIL while W is pregnant with their 4th child? Or, can we agree that it is somewhat behind leaving one's husband while he's in the hospital to bed-down with his doctor? Honestly, can we agree that it isn't worth fighting over, or alienating each other? I'm a true newbie, so feel free to tell me to butt-out. It seems like everyone brings their own baggage to that conversation, and that is the way it should be. Some will appear hostile, some will appear accepting, and others may be using this forum for ulterior motives. IMHO, a1b2c3.. has made a great first step just showing up here without his wife hitting him with threats. This means he is most likely a good candidate for reconciliation. Can you think of the hundreds of WS's that never give this site the time of day? Don't give up, any of you! I'll try to do the same.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 03:16 PM
Quote
Congrats to the wonderings, you give us all hope. BTW, I had to go back to the top, and look at the survey. Did you notice a1b2c3... DID NOT ask for yes/no only? (I noticed because I made my survey y/n only, and was surprised when he did not.

Actually, he asked "was it cheating," and that is a clear cut matter of definition that can only be aswered properly with a yes/no answer. [his multiple choice answers were irrelevent to the question because popular opinion is not an appropriate source for word definitions] Words have specific meanings which is why I posted the dictionary definition. The meaning of a word does not change to suit personal preferences. We can all clearly see that his actions meet the definition of the word. A definition is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.

What he really wanted to know is "was I justified in cheating?" That is what he should have asked.
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 03:27 PM
a1b2c3d4e5 ,
I know of web sites with 100% of the people there telling you that you did not have an affair/adultery. That still doesn't mean it wasn't.

Things are going well but I lack the emotional connection I used to have with her. Perhaps that will come after she moves in.
No, it won't. This will come after BOTH of you do the work necessary to make this happen. Simply living together will not do this.

You wrote, "From my experience with government law enforcement is that infidelity runs rampant."

And previously you wrote, I don't know if she was cheating or not. I quesiton it of course but honestly don't think so."
It happens to everyone except me?
Think about it. Yes, it's one of the hardest things in the world to imagine and you find all the excuses to believe it did not happen but (sadly) from the few lines you have written, I'd bet a large amount of money it did.

"No previous experiences of infidelity without permission "
Huh? So you gave her permission previously to have an affair?
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 03:29 PM
You're right MelodyB. a1b2c3...might get better results to say, Ok I was unfaithful. Now, just how bad WAS my transgression, comparatively speaking. Then multiple choice answers would be appropriate.
Still, we're missing the whole point. What a1b2c3 is asking, at least this is what I think he is asking is... "I'm a pretty decent guy who made some good decisions and some bad ones. What do you think it will take to get my marriage on the right track?"
In which case, the answer is.... (jump in here anytime, veterans!)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 03:32 PM
im, I agree that should be the point, but he didn't ask that, instead he wanted to quibble over the meaning of the word, which is a waste of time, IMO.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 03:41 PM
I've actually learned a lot from this thread. I think I need to pay closer attention to what I'm asking here and in my marriage. Since our language (not dictionary, but linguistics) is very ambiguous at times, it is important to frame the question such that all understand where you are coming from. Almost like asking H "Do you love me?" Well, dictionary love isn't even clear, so what do I really want to know? I want to know "Are your feelings for me such that you want to be with me in a relationship where we both get mutual satisfaction without compromising the other person?" Or something like that. Certainly, he can say I love you, without demonstrating it, and visa versa. Same goes here for a1b2c3...
Question is "I want to make this marriage work. I assume my wife does too. Now, what do we both need to do to repair the damage we have done?"
I think he'll do ok, IMHO.
Posted By: aussieswife Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 05:20 PM
a1b2c3d4e5

Forget the poll ok.

Dont try to justify, you will get mostly a simple yes or no because in the end only a black or white ans is factual.
Married, did you have an affair with another yes or no..thats it.

You have a another point of view which in the circumstances as you explain it means your M was over for you except for a piece of paper.
As for religion, well some would recognise that separation as a divorce, others do not recognise divorce at all. Thats really all besides the point.

But thats Ok thats fine we can agree to disagree. I suspect most 'people' out in the non affair affected world will agree with you, but a1b2c3d4e5, so what?

It doesn't help you with the current situation.

You haven't told what the circumstances were of your wife leaving except in very general terms. There is a lot of experience here and you may get some good advice and yes
4x 2 as well, but thats the nature of this forum.

Myself I feel that in hindsight you regret the sexual contact and perhaps wish it didn't happen. But it did and perhaps your wife has things to regret as well. I have to say her behaviour as explained by you sounds depressingly familiar here on this forum but who knows?

Pls consider giving a bit more info if you wish to seek some opinions, dont need ID stuff just the way things were in your M etc.

Polls & justifications dont get you any help....didn't help me either.

Hope you will consider this.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 05:33 PM
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Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/16/05 05:41 PM
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Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 05:57 PM
This is a Ross and Rachael situation (where we or weren't we 'on a break').
No, your situation is not even close. You were legally married at that time.
BTW, they WERE "on a break"! ;-)

So a marriage is a marriage only when both people in it think it is?
If so, why get married or divorced? After all, the court says it is a marriage until it is ended in divorce (not when one simply decides they don't want it).

Another question to ask is that if my emotional needs weren't being met with my spouse (afterall the counselor says our relationship was based on sex) then is it a healthy relationship to try and rekindle?
It depends on if she is willing to try & meet your ENs now.
You didn't have an affair because you emotional needs weren't being met. You had an affair because you failed to protect yourself against yourself.
That and also the fact that you don't seem to think it was an affair or wrong.
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 06:35 PM
Since this forum, for the most part, is anonymous and can remain so as long as that is what you chose, then you should not feel like it is betraying her need for privacy by sharing the problems that lead to your separation and trying to get some help with your reconcilliation.

Although I think you are reading much more 'harshness' into Mel, I also know that some newbies sometimes take offense to her direct style. You can actually learn lots from her and others here. If you hand around, in time, I would think that your opinion of her would change. She really has a wonderful sense of humor. I do think you are misreading her tone a bit.

I would think from the time line you initially posted that your W may have had an EA at the very least and possibly a full blown A prior to you ever having your 'relationship'. Otherwise a post-partum depression may have been the cause.
You kind of indicated that you had an open marriage. She may have crossed a boundary by getting emotionally involved and then hiding it from you. I believe at some point Radical Honesty as recommended by Dr. Willard Harley would benefit your marital intimacy.

By following the MB principles, you can have a better marriage than before your separation.

Since you share a dear son (DS) together, I think it is worth giving it a try.

I suggest, especially since you can afford it, trying some phone counselling with Steve Harley or his sister Jennifer Chalmers. That would help your reconcilliation get off to a good start.

Since your marriage focused on the EN for Sex, then reading Dr. Willard Harley's 'His Needs Her Needs' would be a good start too. There is also his book 'Fall in Love, Stay in Love'. I would also recommend the book, 'Love Busters'.

It seems like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulders from which you may benefit from freeing yourself. A bit of humble introspection may be in order to be better able to recognize your part in the demise of you marriage.

I really wish you both have a truly great marital recovery.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 07:22 PM
a1, then I suppose we are even, because I find it annoying - if not silly - when folks try to rationalize bad behavior by bastardizing the English language. And frankly, your argument is with the English language, not me, since all I did to "annoy" you was post the dictionary definition of cheating and adultery. That has caused you great outrage, which should tell you that your issue is with the truth, not with me. Unless you want us to believe that Mr Dictionary is "bitter." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am just the messenger.

You asked a direct question to which there IS a black and white answer. The definition of cheating is not a fuzzy gray area as you would like to believe. Sure, situations can be fuzzy if we want them to be, but yours is not.

Simply put, words have definitions no matter how unpleasant that may be. Changing the English language to accommodate your behavior wont' change the truth. You can call it a baloney sandwich, but guess what? It is still cheating and attacking me won't change that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 08:09 PM
"It seems unlikely that she separated bc of an A right after the baby was born. It sounds very possible she had post partum depression."

Hmmm...I don't. Maybe she was depressed...or maybe she WAS in an affair, maybe the child is the OM's, and maybe, just maybe, collecting LOADS of cash from a wealthy ex while getting her "freedom" sounded pretty good. Think about it - her own "normal" salary of $35,000 plus a big old chunk of her husband's $250,000 + salary, plus the money from which ever guys she was with or would end up with in the future. Sounds like she was setting herself up pretty darn good...

I wonder why she came back? Do you know how much of that cash she has left? Maybe her and OM, if there was one, broke it off. Or maybe reality just set in when she learned you were with someone else.

Why was the Divorce never filed or finalized?
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 08:33 PM
I would think that jealousy played a part too. It was okay when she didn't want a1b2, but she didn't want another woman to have him. She probably thought he'd be there as a back up.

Maybe she felt safe thinking that no other woman would want him. Then she found out she was wrong. It is odd that she would accuse him of an A when she, for all intents and purposes, made it clear she didn't want the marriage.

I do think he should have waited until after the DV was final to preserve his integrity and moral high ground. Upon finding out about an OW, that's when she cried foul and wants to work on the M. I suppose it could be that reality set in. It could be about the money, but I hope it isn't.

I hope she came to realize that an intact marriage, with the father of her child, would be that best for all concerned.
Posted By: LowOrbit Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:02 PM
My parents recently purchased a new refrigerator.

There was a sign on it showing the price as $699. The regular non-sale price was $899.

When the salesperson rang it up, he tried to charge them $899. The sale had ended three days earlier but the store staff had not gotten around to removing the price sign yet.

My dad immediately protested. "The price on the fridge said $699. It doesn't matter when your sale ended."

He went home with a $699 refrigerator.

The moral of this story is....?

Low
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:06 PM
Can you just come to grips that it was cheating b/c your wife feels it was? To feel remorse is to actually feel the same pain as the person you hurt. Can you try to empathize with her? If you can't then I don't see how you have a chance.
My H and I sound like we were similar to you and your W. We have a very high income, went to Ivy League schools blah blah blah...It sounds like you did something we did sexually. You can go back and read our old posts. My H was wwjd and wwjdnow. He makes himself sound perfect--I think he was very one sided. Frankly, a man is more sexual than a woman. She probably feels an incredible amount of anger towards you because you did not honor her or protect her. Am I close? Try to be honest here. Secrets destroy. I have faced a lot of judgement for what I have done--but at least I am facing up to what I have done. Tell us more about the sex stuff. Its nothing that we arent imagining. Some other time we will have to debate the Bible stuff--you are taking things way out of context and its driving me, and others I am sure, crazy! LOL. I say all of this with no judgement of you.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:08 PM
Quote
The moral of this story is....?

.... take Low's dad along when I go appliance shopping

.... truth in advertising

.... you've got to fight for what you want

.... a lot of things in life are mis-labled

.... Low is a good storyteller

???? Did I guess correctly???? Is there a prize <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:18 PM
You are hilarious Pep and LowOrbit. Let's now debate whether Clinton cheated b/c he TECHNICALLY did not have intercourse. Just Kidding!

I reread A1 that you wondered about the needs b/c yours had not been met. She can't meet them unless she knows what they are. You both need to take the test and discuss it. It will give you hope. Steve had us do the test and write what it would look like if a partner met the needs. In other words, what would a partner do to meet these needs. Believe me, you have reason to hope.

I have a feeling that your W actually realized at some point that money doesn't buy happiness. I seriously doubt that she left but came back for money. I have a feeling that she left b/c of sexual immoral behavior on both peoples' part. However, she probably can't admit that she is just as responsible for the immoral behavior b/c she is too mad at him. Just a guess...........
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:21 PM
You could be right...it could be that the sex stuff they were into got to be too much for her and she lost respect for him and herself...

Unless a1b2 is willing to explain any further we can't be of much help.
Posted By: LowOrbit Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:28 PM
Quote
.... take Low's dad along when I go appliance shopping


Heavens no! He's a notoriously bad haggler. I only remember this story because I was a little shocked by it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
???? Did I guess correctly???? Is there a prize


Sure...here's a cigar..oops! just saw the Clinton note... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Low
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/16/05 09:31 PM
Quote
Sure...here's a cigar..oops! just saw the Clinton note... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Low

**snort** you win a cigar for that one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 01:05 PM
bump
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 01:25 PM
Just curious, when you said your wedding vows in front of the Judge, or Minister, or whatever, did you modify them from the 'traditional' vows to say that you'd forsake all others unless "we're on the outs"?

I think you'll find that the vast majority of this site believes that "seperated" is simply another state of being "married", and that the vast majority believe that having sex with a person other than your spouse while married is wrong, adultry, cheating, or whatever you want to call it.

So basically, as I see it, this is considered cheating by the vast majority here (and I would guess the majority of the masses). It's cheating by legal definition. It's cheating by moral/Religous definition. So what is the question and more importantly why does it matter to you?
Posted By: 2long Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 03:59 PM
a:

Hm... ...since I'm not religious can I represent the pulse of society on this thread?...

Sorry, silliness is my forte. It really does NOT matter whether it's a religious definition or a secular one. And morality predates religion by several tens of thousands of years (at least, probably more like hundreds of thousands) in my humble opinion.

In this si2ation, though, I think you and your W need 2 decide what you want your relationship 2 be, whether you stay married or not. If it's "okay" 2 have an intimate relationship with other women when she's not around (or for her 2 have them with other men), then that's an open marriage. You want that? Personally, I couldn't imagine living like that, but people do. If your spouse is unaware of the relationship, it's an affair, plain and simple.

Also, from your description, I'd be surprised if your W is NOT having/had an affair.

best,
-ol' 2long
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/17/05 06:21 PM
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Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 06:40 PM
Quote
She doesn't give me any credit for never cheating on her during the real marriage and feels I am going to 'cheat' again sometime in the future. She so doesn't get it and neither does people like MelodyLane. I swear Melody is my wife. LOL

But you don't know if I "get" anything, because I have never commented on your situation. I have only given you the proper definition of cheating, which for some strange reason, causes you great outrage. I have never commented on your specific situation at all.
Posted By: LowOrbit Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 07:00 PM
Quote
She beats me up continually for 'cheating' and I simply don't feel it was considering the circumstance.


Ok, here's your first lesson in MB...

You don't get to decide what she believes is infidelity. If she feels betrayed, then so be it. She feels 'cheated'. She may also have to accept that you feel betrayed as well.

Simply accept this and start doing the things you have to do to help her feel secure.

You are wasting everyone's time with this legalistic discussion. Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

BTW, I wouldn't call your marriage unconventional...what you've described sounds a bit tame compared with other very happy people that I know. If you accept that your marriage wasn't and isn't all that out of the ordinary, then you'll begin to understand that you have a lot of help out there to fix it...including MB.

Low
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 07:05 PM
I'd rather you not use the 3rd person when referring to you and your wife. Hopefully you and your wife will come here together to get help and she will be willing to be less private in this anonymous atmosphere.

It is good that your wife values openness and honesty. I hope she doesn't have a double standard. It is very suspect that Washington DC was where she has been living which is where the OM moved.

Anyway, both of you will have to forgive the past and attempt to start to rebuild a better future marriage for yourselves. I hope you both can see that your marriage was compromised by some of the sexual choices you both made. You both have to take responsibility for the poor choices and love busters. Placing more blame on one or the other of you is probably counter productive.

I am glad your wife is open to the concepts that MB teaches.
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 07:08 PM
The following is as far as I will go with the details of the sexual aspects of our marriage
That is pretty extreme detail for not willing to into detail.

She sees it as cheating period. I see it as being pushed so so so far that it isn't really cheating.
If she sees it that way, then that's the way she sees it. You cannot convince she is "wrong" about how she feels because feelings cannot be right or wrong.

She doesn't give me any credit for never cheating on her during the real marriage
As everyone has said, you have always been in a "real" marriage, therefore you cheated in the real marriage.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/17/05 07:22 PM
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Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 07:45 PM
You can't apologize for going something which SHE feels hurt her, even though you don't think it was wrong?
Do you think it's her fault she hurts?

If you are driving down the road, doing the speed limit and paying attention and someone leaps out in front of you and gets hurt, you don't feel bad or help them out or apologize, even though it was not your fault at all?
Posted By: LowOrbit Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 07:45 PM
Quote
So Low here is my question then. If she feels it was cheating and I do not feel it was cheating and we can't change feelings . . . how are we going to get over this?

I can't show remorse for something I don't feel was wrong. She can't forgive me until I apologize so . . . what's the point?

Help me to understand this concept.


I can do this...

Let's work with a less complex example...leaving the top off the toothpaste. If you were living alone, you could probably leave it off all the time and no one would care. Nothing is wrong and you don't feel guilty about it.

Now, you get married and you find that your wife is very irritated when you leave the top off the toothpaste.

So, you can see that there may not be anything really wrong with leaving the top off the toothpaste, but it bugs her when you do it.

The very fact that you have unintentionally done something that bothers her should be enough for you to apologize.

"Honey, I'm sorry. I never imagined how this would hurt you. Had I known, I wouldn't have done it. How can I help you feel more secure about us?"

Do you see?

If for no other reason, you will not engage in this behavior because you know it will hurt her.

Hurting your wife is wrong. That's what you're apologizing for.

Low
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 07:59 PM
If you haven't already done so, read the concepts on the main site.

You may want to read about the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage. Here is a link to one of the rules:

The Rule of Protection
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/17/05 08:14 PM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 08:15 PM
a1b2,

Marriage is a series of compromises. You may not feel guilt at all, or just not that guilty, however, you apparently value your marriage and want to make things work. The question then becomes..do you value your marriage or the opportunity to have another attempt a being the husband you wish you'd have been (the chance to overcome your regrets) enough to suck it up and show/feel regret and/or guilt, despite your really not having true remorse.

I can give an example. In 1992 I met my wife. We dated 4 months. December, 1992, I was in college in Atlanta and I was going home (Detroit) for Christmas break. I knew at that time I was going to break up with her I just didn't want to do it right before the holidays. I went home and went out with friends. Met a girl, went on a date and kissed her over the break. I came back to Atlanta in January and broke up with my wife. We were friends for maybe a month and a half then we got back together in maybe late February. The reason for the break up was really her Manic-Depressive Father (who was full blown manic at the time) and I wanted to get away from that situation. I never saw us getting back together at all and never anticipated being called out for may actions.

To this day, my wife calls me a cheater because of that instance. She has never forgotten it or let it go. Before, during and after her affair, that indescretion has been thrown in my face. I've given the technically it wasn't repsonses. I explained myself and offered many justifications till I'm blue in the face. I had considered our relationship OVER.

Problem is I can't change how she feels. I may have considered our relationship over but she didn't AT THAT TIME. Which was unfair. It was both technically cheating and cheating. Just because I didn't think I was going to get called out on it didn't make it O.K.. My inability to accept responsibility communicated to my wife that I didn't care about her feelings. I was just bullheaded and said it wasn't that bad or worse that she was wrong. Period. I minimized her as a person and later as my spouse...everytime I defended myself.

BTW, this is true despite the fact that my wife cheated on many a boyfriend over her years of dating. I used this excuse. But she didn't feel about them the way she felt about me. This controversy was about our relationship. I used to be an extremely non-emotional, logical guy. My wife's affair really open my eyes to the downside of such stoicism.

In conclusion, buck it up, be a man and accept responsibility for your actions. You'll be suprised by what life and marriage has to offer to you when you allow your true masculinity to shine through. Maybe (and I am hoping) true intimacy can only be achieved when you care more about how your wife feels than what you merely think.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - I hope this sounds right. I'm not so good at this emotional stuff. My wife says my legal posts are just so much better.

Edited to add: I agree with ActDon'tReact on the other thread you posted under Just Found Out. Her hammering your infidelity may point to the fact she herself had an affair. Either it levels the playing field enabling her decision to come back to you and try again (which is good if acknowledge and honesty can be restored in your relationship) OR it gives her the ability to blame you for the eventual downfall of the marriage and she can save face with family and friends (as she presumes her infidelity will never be discovered).

Also, her affair after nearly 2 years may have run it's course and ended. Now she's single with child - time for her to get back on the money train. She may try with you but she'll be happy to blame you for the whole thing if it doesn't work out. She gets you back and the upper hand. The whole time you keep paying. Have your guard up a little but not compulsively as you apparently did when you were younger. BTW, this is more the compulsive conspiracy theorist side of me. I hope I'm wrong and you both live happily ever after.
Posted By: 2long Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 08:22 PM
a1:

"She sees it as cheating period. I see it as being pushed so so so far that it isn't really cheating."

Others have commented on the first statement, so I'll focus on the 2nd:

Q: How did she push you? Can you not make decisions for yourself?

-ol' 2long
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/17/05 08:26 PM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 08:29 PM
"Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?"

(Just thought that needed to be highlighted for you.)
Posted By: LowOrbit Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 08:36 PM
Quote
I can not apologize for having the relationship because I do not regret it.


Arrgh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Whether you regret having the relationship for yourself is irrelevant.

He!!, my relationship with my OW was great. We were fantastic friends and world class lovers. Outside of the fact that we completely destroyed two families AND my own integrity, what's there to regret?

My very point is that you should regret the relationship because it DID hurt your wife.

There is a difference between feeling regret and feeling bad about what happened. Regrets says you now wish it hadn't happened and you wouldn't do it if you had it to go over again.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you must feel horrible for meeting and having a good relationship with this other person.

Low
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 08:41 PM
2 long's (I mean Low Orbit's) apology is right on target (it was posted while I was typing). You don't have to beleive what you say. Just say it with belief.

Unfortunately my wife has enough customer service training to know better than to accept "I'm sorry you feel that way" as a true heartfelt apology. Be prepared to explain, with apparent belief the "why" you feel that way, in detail. Women have a sixth sense when it comes to insincerity. Especially if her hammering you is a sort a manipulation to make the last 2 years of her neglecting you into your fault. She will look for weaknesses in your tap-dance apology.
Posted By: krusht Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 10:05 PM
A1,

I sure hate getting in on the end of a thread and reading all the pages to get to here....anyway....

I find the extremely ironic that..""Had I known how she felt I wouldn't have had the relationship because I would have known that my wife still loved me.""

But reading that when you told her about the relationship, she then wanted to come back (jealousy?). If you didn't have the relationship she might still be there!! Doyathink?

Anyway,again, you have been married for 5 or more years correct? So you should be very familiar with the 2 most important phrases a man must use to keep peace in the M.....

YES DEAR!
and
I AM SO SORRY, SWEETHEART!

She just wants to know you REGRET HURTING HER, and that you are truly remorseful and sincerely sorry..FOR CAUSING HER PAIN. Period..no room for arguement here.

I understand you do not want to be labled a WH!! (heaven forbid)

And don't be annoyed by Melody Lane, she is cool and a bright light in the darkness. But don't piss her off because she gets her hackles up and won't let you go!!

There is also a big difference between the Bible and the Dictionary. At one point you seemed to have them confused.

Be nice to your wife. She has been gone a year and wants to come back. (DC is a living ****** in the summer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />) You both can start dating and begin anew!!

Everything is going to be OK!

k
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 10:29 PM
a1b2...
Sounds like you're both very confused about where you want to have the boundaries of marriage/relationship. I don't want to pass judgement on you/your wife's experimentation, since most folks get the "wild and crazies" out of their system before marriage. You both tried to get a little bit of a taste of what else was out there, and maybe curiosity led to stronger feelings. More importantly, if W was at all insecure about herself during pregnancy, your (my words) "poorly defined" marriage my have increased those insecurities. Maybe you both need to decide TOGETHER just what is comfortable for you both. For the time being, though, I'd recommend celibacy or at least fidelity. If she's cruising these sites, too, then maybe she's just as interested in keeping this marriage as you are. Good Luck!
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/17/05 11:13 PM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 11:28 PM
No, if you learn to meet each other's 5 top most important EN's then you both can have a fulfilling marriage.

It is unrealistic to expect to be happy all the time. You will have joy and you will have sorrow as with all lives. Some people go from one relationship to another seeking 'happiness'. When they cease to be happy they want out.

Marriage is about commitment. Love is a choice...a decision.

It sounds like you have some resentment regarding your wife waiting until you were really willing to move on before she decided to try to save the marriage. You can both learn about forgiveness. 'Forgive & Forget' by Lewis Smedes may be helpful.

I still recommend try telephone counseling with Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers.

There are both BS's here as well as WS's here in various stages of dealing with infidelity and attempting to recover...one way or the other.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/17/05 11:32 PM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: ACTdontreact Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 11:37 PM
Go to 2nd thread down on the "Just found Out" board and there is a list of abbreviations.
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 11:38 PM
A1
This site is DEFINITELY about making your M better! Once she is back, you can begin to work on meeting the emotional needs. Go back and read all that you can about the Harleys recommendations. You will learn so much and you will have great hope! Get the tape on His Needs Her Needs. It is really enlightening. I am glad to see that you have a sense of humor..........
Posted By: weaver Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 11:38 PM
I agree with Trix, the first step would be forgiveness. You forgiving your wife.

I understand that it would be extremely difficult to go through what you did, finally meet someone who fulfills you and then have your wife want to come home.

I don't envy the position that your wife has put you in, either with leaving or with coming back...after you have suffered so much, and then found someone.

Tough choice, and only you can make it. Yuck.

Good luck with whatever you decide though. And I do believe that you will never be happy with your wife again unless you can forgive and welcome her back whole heartedly.

I am not so much a believer in meeting the top five emotional needs here as others are. I believe if the marriage is working this can only enhance, but cannot possibly bring it back from the ashes.

It's all about choice and forgiveness. And sometimes as hard as it is to swallow, love does die. And like you I would not live in a loveless marriage, right or wrong.

And maybe the feelings will come back after you live together again. It would definately be worth the try in my book, if you can give it all you've got.

And please remember she can always leave again, and so can you. There are no guarantees, only choices.

Sorry...know I didn't help much.
Posted By: ACTdontreact Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/17/05 11:58 PM
So glad to see you've taken to MB like a fish to water. You've got one of the most popular threads I've seen here in awhile. Apparently when you add a little salt the pot boils faster.

Anyway, I can already see your thinking changing. Saying "I want a fulfilling marriage and I prefer it with my wife" is very healthy thinking. You can only control yourself. Focus on being the best person and husband you can be and let the rest take care of itself. Whether it's with your wife or not.

Continued regards
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 12:04 AM
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Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 12:09 AM
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Posted By: ACTdontreact Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 12:10 AM
I repeat - you must have missed it.

Go to "Just found out" board - 2nd or 3rd thread down
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 12:36 AM
Act,

Thanks found the list. Holy cow!!! It is as long as the Mississippi!!! Tried to committ some to memory but . . . may still have to refer to it a bit.

Again thanks.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 01:20 AM
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Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 01:44 AM
a1...Beware: Swimming Upstream Can Be Hazardous to Your Health...Do So At Your Own Risk...You can't change MB principles on a site dedicated to those principles...principles, by the way that have been proven time and time again to work...Are you just throwing out bait because you're lonely? Careful,step on too many toes and most folks will "forget" to throw you a life jacket...

Mrs. Dubya

P.S. Required Reading for ALL salespeople... How to Win Friends and Influence People

P.S.S. Here's a little friendly advice from a "dyed in the wool" southern gal..."You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 01:51 AM
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Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 01:59 AM
Make sure to read my edit to my above post..Ha! Ha! Ha! You know how you are better able to sell something that you really believe in? Well, a lot of these folks have seen these principles move mountains in their lives, my husband and I included, so how can the zest with which we so fully embrace the philosophies set forth here be a wonder to you?

The Mrs.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 02:08 AM
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Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 02:28 AM
"So take down your fishin' pole and meet me at the fishin' hole"...the actual words from the Andy Griffith show tune...you must sing it out loud to get the full effect here Ha! The older I get, the geekier I become...

I do know what you mean about feeling that sometimes things can take on a bit of a cultish hue here...I've only felt that way when I was being "2 x 4ed", as you have been here...In fact on one of my old posts where I was trying to swim upstream, and pretty much being drowned by all the water that was getting splashed in my face, btw, I actually said something to the effect of "Do you people think that maybe just maybe people can actually be a little different and do things their own way and have it work out for the best?"...what's great about this site is that a few days later, I was actually able to see how "my way" was indeed detrimental to the goal I was/am trying to accomplish...this place acts as a great sounding board...also, my husband and I have been better able to deal with some of our own issues by being able to read the stories of others and discuss them in the third person before actually applying them in our own lives...

So young fisherman, be wise and let some of these folks teach you how to fish..maybe you'll never hunger again...whaddaya think?

I would be very interested to find out what changed you from a devout Christian to an Atheist...no judgement, just some intellectual (friendly) bantering perhaps...

Madame Wondering
Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 03:13 AM
Hey, Steak Sauce.... (A1)

Welcome to Marriage Builders! As you've seen this is quite the unique little community here. But, in spite of what you've seen that may seem peculiar, and perhaps a little cult-like, you will see there are more caring and well-intentioned people here than you might find in a year or more in "real life".

People don't come here for recreational purposes. Most end up here as the result of just having been dealt one of life's most difficult blows, infidelity. Most are in a state of complete shock, because adultery only happens to "others", not us. People come here full of dispair, many, as you noticed, viewing suicide as a possible "answer" to their problems. Many are so lost they are paralyzed, and unable to help even themselves. This website, and these forums have probaby saved a few lives, and allowed many more to rebuild marriages that truly are better than existed before the A became a part of their lives.

Without this website, and the kind and caring people here, I would not be married today. I would have chucked it all, and walked away. Not necessarily because because I wanted to, but because the uninformed way I was trying to get our marriage a second chance. Much of what is recommended is counter-intuitive to most people, and few have the instincts to do everything right. This site is what gave me the direction to attract my W into giving US a second chance.

Dr. Harley agrees that not all marriages can, or should be saved. However, his philosophy does stress that much, if not most, of the work should be on self-improvement, so that if the marriage does survive, great, but if it does not, you still have given it your best shot, completed the self improvement, and you move forward a better person, healed and without unfinished "baggage", much better equipped to have successful relationships in the future.

Read Dr. Harley's book, Surviving an Affair, and you will see how complete his philosophy is, regardless of the outcome of people's efforts.

Something obviously brought you to this site, and at the rate "newbies" are arriving, we can use all the help we can get. So with your leisure time, why don't you examine everything here closely, work on saving your own marriage (successfully we hope), then give us a hand helping other newbies coming on board.

Your wit and independent point of view could be most helpful.

Think about it.

Best wishes,
SD
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 05:59 AM
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Posted By: krusht Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:04 AM
""I don't mean to offend but I do mean to make people think and not follow so blindly. I am looking for more people that can show me the way without all the extreme measures others are taking or suggesting.""

OK, where are Lemonman and Noodle when we need them???

Take it all with a grain of salt..we mean you no harm!!

Just be kind and loving to your wife when she moves in, say you are soooooo sorry..and MEAN IT!!

K
Posted By: krusht Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:07 AM

""Furthermore, the site pushes so much self sacrifice for the good of the marriage that I wonder if the marriages he saves are simply saved at the cost of personal happiness.""

OK, you must be Lemon in disguise, right??
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 06:13 AM
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Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:32 AM
Yeah, Where is the good Dr.Lemonman...I'd buy tickets to see Lemon and Saucey(aka A1) go head to head if they ever disagreed...

Saucey(mind if I call you that?), I think that you would appreciate Lemonman's take on a lot of situations...you should give him a shout out...talk about a popular thread...Might just go down in MB's history...

Btw, my H and I discussed your situation at great length tonight and thought of some interesting theories(nothing negative)...hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to post to you, going to bed now as it is 2:25am here, YAWN!

Hey, how was The Skeleton Key? I too love going to movies by myself...you get more absorbed and the movie is more captivating that way...

Mrs. W
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 12:28 PM
Ahhh, a1b2c3...
another sales blunder--you're counting revenue before the contract has been signed! "Wife moved back in 8/21/2005." Hmmmm, that's a few days away, and there's probably going to be a lot of back and forth in that time. You're certain you've eliminated all the "dealbreakers," right? As a salesperson, you know that you can't count on success until they actually show you the money.
Anyway, it IS an interesting thread, and I'm probably one of the only one's who voted "not cheating period." Again that's because I'm not looking at legal definitions, but at intent. (Veteran MBs will disagree, and they may be right.)
Hope you can generate as much positive buzz for your wife and you as you've generated with this group!
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 01:05 PM
“””Just trying to figure out this group.”””

Then sorry to say, your focus is all wrong, you should be trying to figure out your marriage. But a little about “this group”, as you can see I’ve been on this site for over 4 years. The people here are black and white, young and old, rich and poor, wayward and betrayed. It’s actually a great cross section of America. We are all here with a common goal and that is to have a rewarding marriage and if that doesn’t work out then we help each other heal.

”””I like what I read on the site but the posts I read are very very scary. The state of mind of people in here is very interesting from a psych perspective but not sure if I have to be like the posters if I want to drink the Kool-Aid.”””

Here’s the funny thing, that someone is reading your post and saying the exact same thing about you. I don’t say that in a mean spirit it’s just that people are different and they place their beliefs and principles in different areas.

“””I am looking for more people that can show me the way without all the extreme measures others are taking or suggesting.”””

So you want an easy fix, in real life that doesn’t happen too often. There aren’t too many rewards without effort. What you view as extreme is not necessarily what others view as extreme. If you look at the core of this site or pretty much any other that has to do with marriage you’ll find communication is at the core of any happy relationship. Whether it’s the ability of one to communicate their emotional needs or properly express their emotions. That being said, I can also say that if you communicate with your wife the way that you’ve communicated on this site that there is some room for improvement there.

”””Weird slice of the population here.”””

I’m kind of perplexed by this statement. If by weird you mean a good cross section of Doctors, Lawyers, Factory Workers, Military Men and Women, Stay at Home Mom’s, and people with only months of marriage and people with over 40 years of marriage, then yes it is weird.

”””Been through two marriage counselors now and working on a third.”””

Why?

“””Remind I am also a declared atheist (another position most people don't feel comfortable in taking) this after I was a devote Christian for several years. I also believe that I may be wrong in my religious beliefs today and respect the beliefs around me.”””

There are actually a lot of atheist on this site and a lot of Christians along with a wiccan or two. But actually that you profess confusion about your religious beliefs is interesting. Kind of that whole chaos in the heart and chaos in the soul thing going on.

”””It is the following that scares me. It is their overwhelming loyalty that concerns me.”””

Why is that? If I found a cure for cancer and had a loyal following would that concern you? This, obviously is no where near that, as a matter of fact marriages that people come here trying to save quite often fail. Sometimes that’s because circumstances, sometimes it’s because people wouldn’t do what they needed. But let me let you in on a little secret. This ain’t all about saving a marriage, it actually has a lot to do with helping people heal.

”””the site pushes so much self sacrifice for the good of the marriage that I wonder if the marriages he saves are simply saved at the cost of personal happiness.”””

That’s actually a good observation. I’ve seen people do things I would never do in order to try to save the marriage, but for the most part these people misunderstood what they were being asked to do. That being said there is still sacrifice in saving a marriage, heck there is sacrifice in marriage. The point here is getting you and your spouse to the point where you both are selflessly meeting each others emotional needs. But, quite frankly, some marriages shouldn’t be saved.

”””The site ignores that 2nd marriages can be quit fulfilling as well.”””

Actually, it doesn’t. And it also doesn’t ignore the fact that 2nd marriages have a failure rate of about 50% greater than 1st marriages.

“””So far I love the teachings of the site, I simply feel they are too extreme and the users that cling to these principles are too extreme as well.”””

And that’s cool, that’s your opinion.

”””I find it mind boggling that there are suicidal on this site and that there are simply normal everyday people trying to prevent them from killing themselves. Yikes that is scary.”””

Would it be better if they died?

”””I see the compassion on the site. I see the love that others have for those afflicted.”””

There is tons of compassion here and I love that about it.
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 03:03 PM
a1,

I usually don't post anymore, just read, but something about this thread peeked my curiosity. Maybe it's b/c my H went through almost the same thing, feeling-wise. Our timeline is no way near extensive as yours, we were only separated for 4 months, but he did sleep w/his OW after he moved out so in his mind, when he came home, he *technically* did not cheat. When he first came home, he didn't "love" me. As a matter of fact, he could find every reason he could think of of why he shouldn't be married to me. I loved him though. I loved him w/all my heart. I loved everything about him. Plus, we had a friendship for a lot longer than we had a marriage. I suspect that's the case w/you & your W. It seems that you two were friendly, otherwise you wouldn't have told her about this other relationship. And as a success story, I want to tell you that you can use that basis of friendship to get you to your ultimate goal of meeting each other's emotional needs.

I read through your timeline & I just have to mention this, how could you or your W meet each other's needs when you had other people meeting them for you? It sounds like this was quite exciting for you at the beginning but then stepped over the bounds after a while when she wanted to swing, and from how I read, you caved in to her request. I guess what I'm saying in a nutshell is, how do you know that your W couldn't meet your EN's (emotional needs) strictly by herself when you never gave her the chance? And vice versa. How could you meet hers when she didn't give you the chance? Now that you've realized what the problems were, you have a better chance at having the marriage you want. And once you have that, you will think to yourself, Why didn't we do this sooner?

You say that you still love your W (wife), just not in the way that you used to. This is good. This is a START. Why your W? Why not w/someone new? B/C your W is the person whom you chose to share a life with, your W is the person whom you chose to forsake all others for, your W is the person who you said your vows to. YOu might think to yourself, Why should I go back to her when I could have something better, someONE better suited for me? This is exactly what my H thought before he decided to move back in & give it a go again. Here we are, a year & a half later & we couldn't be more in love. And we didn't have to sacrifice OURSELVES (who we were inside) to do it. We had to make our M a priority. We had to spend a lot of time together at first. We had to do MC (marriage counseling). That, to me, isn't sacrifice. That is taking the steps neceessary to repair damages that have been done on both sides in order to get to our ultimate goal. Was it hard sometimes? Yes, I won't lie to you. But was it worth it? Definite yes. Neither one of us could ever see ourselves w/o the other. We complete each other. That's kind of hard to explain. It's not that we have lost ourselves in each other but that we're ourselves yet at the same time intertwined. Don't know if I'm making myself clear or not.

As far as this site, you're going to find that some people will annoy you, some people will be very beneficial to you, some people will tell you things that you need to hear, some will tell you things that you don't want to hear, but everyone has the same goal. To help themselves & others have a fulfilling marriage. This place is not a cult. I personally do not worship The Harleys. I have a God whom I worship. I know you're an atheist but I have found that God speaks to us in many forms & I believe this place was God-sent for me at the time when I desperately was crying to Him for His help in saving my M. Maybe it will be for you too, you never know. You tried things your way, they didn't work. How about trying a different approach? You never know. You just might end up being in that fulfilling M that you want.

Sorry this got so long. I didn't intend it that way. I do tend to get long-winded. Hope you didn't give up reading.
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 03:21 PM
No, this stuff is not about doing ANYTHING to save a marriage.
Yes, some people do follow it blindly abnd think they HAVE to save the marriage at any cost without even knowing WHY they should do it.

When a wayward spouse (WS) has an affair and leaves (or sticks around and causes all kinds of ruckus) the betrayed spouse (BS) has no option of doing anything, even if they wanted to. All the "power" is in the hands of the WS.
Using Marriage Builders (MB) principles gives the BS tools to be in a position to actually do something. It helps them to regain a sense of self (and self worth).

It has been shown that affairs really do end (regardless of the WS saying, "I will divorce you and we will NOT get back together") and that the WS will usually make some attempt at reconciliation, even in the worst case.

Once the BS is in a position to do something, they can make an informed decision to do something, not simply based on feelings whether to continue or not.
MB principles are proven to make things work, as long as both people use them.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 04:07 PM
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Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 04:49 PM
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Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 04:50 PM
One other thing I should have mentioned in my previous post. Dr. Harley states, in so many words, that his philosophy is one that works with what we refer to here as "garden variety" affairs. It is far less likely to work when there are alcohol or chemical addictions, sexual addictions or serious mental health problems or defects involved. He clearly states that the addictions or mental health problems need to be dealt with 1st, and "cured" before the MB principles are employed.

Most A's are "garden variety". Most A's are common and ordinary. Most A's are the result of the two partners becoming lazy or lax in taking steps to insure their marriage does not become vulnerable to an A. Most A's are the result of "life's" everyday requirements taking over our lives, and forgetting to nurture a love that was once easy, and came naturally. Most A's are the result of falling into ruts, and reacting in less than a loving and caring fashion to our spouses (failure to communicate lovingly and effectively). Most A's are a very complex combination of these items, a unique set for every couple.

The damage an A can do to a betrayed spouse has been put at a level comparable to the loss of a child. It is wholly devastating in so many ways. Pain, shock, grief, betrayal, loss of self, loss of self esteem, in short, life altering effects. People can't sleep, can't focus, can't eat, can't funtion. Their thoughts are wholly consumed by the flood of emotions. Life, is not fun.

You were surprised by the "efforts" people will make to survive an affair. So was I. I was surprised I would submit myself to the pain and anguish my W put me through. Like many here, I've been married for over 30 years and have adult children. Is this something I can "just" walk away from? Do I want to face re-entering "dating" at the age of 54? Do I want the finances I been building for retirement split down the middle, and know that my quality of life will be severely reduced following a divorce? These are questions many of us face. With one son still in high school, do I want to attend his sporting events, while sitting well away from his mother, and having to answer questions about "what happened"?

You see, much of what I'd have to do to survive a Divorce, and come out of it in a healthy way, physically and mentally, I'd have to do anyway to save my marriage. A considerable amount of what needs to be done involves self-improvement. Eliminating annoying behavior, love-busters, household contributions, better at positive and empathetic communication with my wife. People who leave marriages and DON'T do this work, take all of the "baggage" right in to the next relationship.

Even if my marriage fails, after all I've been through, I will be a much better person for having given the marriage my best shot, and I could walk away knowing I did my best to save it. So either way, it's a win/win deal. My own self-improvement is a worthwhile byproduct to an ordeal I never wanted or asked for in the first place. Making lemonade out of lemons? Perhaps. But I think you'll see this theme as fairly common with people who have bought in to Marriage Builders, and, more importantly, done the work required.

Glad you are still around....
Best wishes

SD
Posted By: CSue Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 04:51 PM
A1,

My husband and I counseled with Steve Harley for about 9 months.

I mentioned this website at times - and I have to tell you that SH was surprised/alarmed with what transpires here sometimes.

This site is not always an accurate reflection of MB or MB philosophy either.

Counseling with SH wasn't always by the MB Book. He is an expert in a very narrow field of issues - and our experience with him was priceless!

Saved our marriage and a whole lot of pain during the journey back. Money well spent. Some of the best advice he gave us you'll never see on this website or in any of the books. I know it's expensive, but I can't believe more people don't take advantage of his counseling services.
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:12 PM
My wife LEFT ME.
...
Because I didn't feel what I was doing was even remotely wrong.

Here is the problem with using this logic.
Almost always, there are problems in a marriage some minor & insignificant, others great.
Many times, a spouse has an affair because at some point, they felt the marraige was "over" and they feel they had done EVERYTHING possible to make it better but the their spouse was not interested.
Sometimes they really did do a bunch and the other spouse did nothing.
But vice-versa, sometimes they "felt"they did a bunch when in reality they NEVER said anything to their spouse and all they did was moan & groan to their friends.
"He never does anything I want!" or "She never listens to me!"

My point is that perhaps SHE felt it was over and that she had done everything possible to make it better but for whatever reasons, you did nothing.

You felt it was over, therefore, your "relationship" with this other girl was not wrong.
Your wife it was over, so why is her leaving wrong?

You can feel everything is over but regardless, a marriage is a marriage only when you get married. Anything else is simply playing at marriage.

Why can it be over without following the same rules? (as in divorce)
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:24 PM
I see the EA that she has been having with the man she is selling the house to has been at least as destructive and disrespectful to the marriage as your A which you began after you were separated. She will have to recognize that and end all contact with that other man. That is if she respects your 'feelings' regarding your view of that 'friendship' and how it has hurt you and your marriage. All of the things she accused you of are those that a wayward spouse tends to use. I don't know whether she was or was not 'guilty' of being in a full PA or even a EA except by your description it tends to sound like at least an emotional affair.

Trust will need to be rebuilt on both of your parts.

You haven't really said what excuse she used for moving in the first place. She had obviously lost all respect for you as a person. But why? Was it justification for her wanting to maintain that other friendship? I guess there are still some holes in the story or that is stuff you don't want to share...because it is 'private'. It just sounds like you are both at fault in one way or the other and you will both needs to acknowledge your own parts in the state of your marriage prior to your separation.

By the way: Dr. Willard Harley doesn't do the phone counseling. That is done by his son, Steve Harley, and daughter, Jennifer Chalmers both also qualified clinical psychologists, I believe.
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:27 PM
This site is not always an accurate reflection of MB or MB philosophy either.
A slight correction.
The SITE is (should be?) always a reflection of MB because it is written by MB staff.

The FORUMS may or may not be since the (Harley's never post, whether it is to correct someone or give guidance.
Posted By: dorry Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:27 PM
Quote
I mentioned this website at times - and I have to tell you that SH was surprised/alarmed with what transpires here sometimes.

This site is not always an accurate reflection of MB or MB philosophy either.

Counseling with SH wasn't always by the MB Book. He is an expert in a very narrow field of issues - and our experience with him was priceless!


This is why post people on here recommened buying the book snad setting up an appointment with the Harley's.

this is a SUPPORT group and not a COUNCELLING group. Many ideas here are based on MB principals, but once again, it's support. Most of the wise ole folks will always tell you to back up an advice and support on here with the books or councelling from the Harleys <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lots of the newer folk forget that important fact - that MC is a must, and this is just great for support and some guidance and for feeling not so alone, and it also helped kicked my butt out of my [censored] to realize that I need to focus on my goal and not try to do things my own way - that help is always needed, that is higher than me.

Just my 2cents <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 05:39 PM
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Posted By: LostHusband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:53 PM
“””As for my religious beliefs. I have been an atheist for several years but I am not closed minded about me being possibly wrong. Another problem with the world is being close minded to other religions, races, classes, heritages, etc. I know that I may be wrong, I have reasons for believing I am not, but . . . still open to changing my mind if it makes sense to me.”””

Just as a side note, I believe that chaos breeds chaos. I only say that to the point of spiritual unsteadiness in your life could lead to other portions being unsteady. It really sounds as if your going through a stage in life where you doing a lot of searching and have a lot of books open. I believe you’ll find that as you begin to come to some conclusions on your journey and begin closing some of these books that the picture will be a little clearer. The human mind is an amazing device but unlike a computer it’s data input in one side can directly corrupt the data output on the other.

”””Marriage counselors - They both simply said that my wife and I are communicating well. But that we see things entirely different. That is why my wife and I decided to accept the fact that we see the same events in two different lights--just as two witnesses at a crime scene will remember the same events differently.”””

AWESOME…. You sitting there saying why does he think that’s awesome, because that’s real and quite frankly it’s a starting point. But rather than simply “accept” that fact that y’all see things in different light, why not see what you can do to improve on that. Seek to gain a better understanding of how she see’s and processes things. It will definitely lend to you being more understanding and allow you to better communicate with your wife. There are several things I would suggest, one would be taking some type of communication class with your wife. There is one called Reautroville, that I’ve heard wonderful things about. I’m not sure if it’s Christian based or not. The other suggestion would be to pick up and read a book, I think it’s called The Five Languages of Love.

Understanding each other and developing complimentary styles in this arena can work wonders. Yes, my wife and I benefit greatly from Dr. Harley’s principles but we also benefit greatly from realizing our differences in how we view things and tailoring our communication to fit with each other. I tend to quickly analyze and entire picture and skip right to the final solution, where she tends to take things a step at a time. So if I’m waiting at the finish line for her, she can either feel left out or frustrated. Plus, if I’m waiting there at the finish line, I may very well have skipped over something that was important to her. Now these two styles are both acceptable ways to deal with problems but as you can see we do things differently, so we are left with two options 1) accept we are different and continue to engage in a power struggle or 2) seek ways and means by which we can effectively deal with issues together validating each persons opinions along the way. So which one do you feel will better serve us in the long run? Of course #2 will.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 05:54 PM
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Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:55 PM
You should purchase and read "Surviving an Affair" before she gets home. Put a plan in place for a successful rebuilding of your marriage. Just flying by the seat of your pants won't work. Unless you can find a better, proactive marriage building site.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JMHO
SD
Posted By: dorry Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 05:56 PM
I agree with Lost Husband.

H and I have such different views of things our story of the same evet can be drastically different...and as much as we were good communicators, this barrier in our communication was detremental.

We have learned to respect the differences and try to agree to disagree when we see soemthing different, instead of trying to force what we see on one another.

Lost Husband made some really good points there that would help you and your wife A1.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 06:08 PM
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Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 06:23 PM
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Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:23 PM
Hopefully this is the stuff that SH (Steve Harley) can help you both overcome.
Posted By: dorry Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:24 PM
Then why are you on a support forum if you don't need support. Many here have told you that were arent councellors, we aren;t advisors ,- we give support based advice. If you want a solution then please - call up the Harleys, make an appointment.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 06:49 PM
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Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:52 PM
a1b2,
Look, you come across as arrogant and extremely opinionated, unteacheable and judgmental (YES, you who thinks s are judgmental, lol). The key to that statement is that's how you come across. You may or may not be those things.

That said, I read the last long post of yours and I think I see things diferently than some of the people who have posted. Sure, they are giving you good facts and MB advice. They are pointing out the black from the white. But I also see a man who was devastated by his wife (I know that LOW point, when you feel you are in the pit of ******, I think sometimes people forget what that was like...). You were torn to pieces while she stood bye and watched cold-heartedly. She moved far away with your child, and you paid her a ton of money to do all of this to you.

I think you should stop saying that your wife was not a WS. She was! Whether there was an admitted affair or not, she betrayed and abandoned you! Answer this question: If she wanted you back SO badly, after leaving you and screwing you over, WHY is she spending so much energy throwing that relationship back in your face??? Sure, it hurt, for whatever reason. It doesn't seem like she values you or the marriage, so I haven't quite figured out why she was SO upset.

You both screwed up, as in any marriage, both people do things to contribute to marital problems. Did you mess up by beginning another relationship before the marriage was completely over, legally and otherwise? Well, apparantly so. OR MAYBE NOT REALLY. Obviously, that is what it took to wake her up! Ok, so you shouldn't go out and use another woman to make WW jealous. And I don't think that's what you did. But everything else failed, and your being in another relationship had the unexpected affect of waking her up.

Anyway, if you want this marriage, you will have to come to respect her feelings on this. You can be sorry that you hurt her. (Of course it would be nice if she was sorry she hurt you). You can be sorry that you didn't finish the first chapter before moving on to the second.

I think that a statement such as, "WW, I want to be completely honest with you, and I honestly do not feel that I cheated on you, considering where our marriage was at that point. However, I can say that I am very sorry I have caused you hurt. I never wanted to hurt you, and I don't want to hurt you now. Please forgive me. Can we both start again?"

As far as this site goes, I think you are offending people by implying this is an exremist cult. And you are asking for opinions and then bashing those opinions.

Most people on here probably will disagree with a lot of what I said to you today. But you know what? I am learning to be ok with that. I am learning to be ok with the fact that I am human and that I don't have to always be perfect or meet others expectations.

Hurting people do things that they may not normally do. Some people are "stronger" than others. Poeple have different resources available to them at different times. We have diffeent backgrounds, values, personalities, weaknesses and strengths. Some people can go through this kind of torment and come out on the other side saying they were strong and pure, etc. Good for them! Some will come out looking like they've been drug 50 miles by a semi. They are crawling and struggling to regain their balance. Others are somewhere in between. I wish people were more loving and accepting of all the varieties.

So this is where you are. This is how you dealt with things.
I think it's great that you want to try again for your son. Many people won't do that.

So take what you have and find a way to make it work. But it's going to take HUMILITY and a teachable heart. Without those things, your marriage will fail again and you will go through more pain. BUT, you also need to learn to establish healthy boundaries with your WW, as she needs to be accountable too.

I, personally, would not "do" marriage again without MB principles. Thos principles give me assurance that my H and I CAN succeed.

Maybe you can start a new thread that is about what you DID do wrong instead of what you didn't do wrong, that way you can hopefully avaoid making the same mistakes again.

The words "affair", "adultery", "cheating" - they are just words. Yeah people may try to use them to label you. I know that stings. And your wife may use them to gain power over you (which signals a deeper issue). But if you can at least get to the point where you can just say , "ok, maybe I made a mistake", that's a stepping stone.

I encourage you to stick around and use this site for the support and advice that you are really going to need when your wife gets home.
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:54 PM
a1,

You're right. My H was a WS before he left. I just didn't know it until after he left. It was an EA for 2 months before he decided to leave. It became physical after he left. But I don't see much difference. You even admitted that your W knows she was in an EA for 2 years. It seems like you're trying to get your W to see things your way. I say this b/c of what you said here --

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If my wife could simply understand that about 50% of america would call it an affair and 50% wouldn't then maybe she would back off a little and stop pounding me on this so much. This is not repeatable behavior for me unless she moves her A55 back out of the house again. grrrrrr she just so doesn't get it!!! (conflict side coming out)


a1, she's not going to see things your way. This relationship you had hurt her. Plain & simple. Personally, in my own opinion, I think it was cheating, but that's just my personal opinion. Everyone's entitled to theirs. Your W is entitled to hers. My H thinks it wasn't, not technically, so he sees things from your perspective. Everyone sees things differently. And now that I read further, I see your MC & you both have agreed that you see things differently. So, moot point.

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I have no issues with sacrifice as long as it still creates personal happiness as well as marital happiness. You lose personal happiness and the marriage isn't worth the sacrifice. I belief in sacrificing for your spouse (that should be the definition of a marriage, MelodyLane???) but not sacificing to a level that you aren't happy doing it.


I agree. That's what the POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement) is for. So you two can compromise to the point that no one is unhappy. Everyone comes out a winner. But you have to make sure that neither one of you is the source of each other's unhappiness.

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She is truly remorseful NOW about the emotional affair but confesses to nothing more than an emotional affair. Very frustrating that it is only now that she admits to the emotional affair. Almost as if her feeling I had an affair makes it okay to admit to a lesser crime of an emotional affair now.


You're probably right. She wanted you to admit to yours before she'd admit to hers. She was probably afraid for you to know. Now that she knows that you had a relationship yourself, kind of makes it easy for her to tell you about hers. Sometimes we can't explain the WS' mind, just seen it happen a lot.

You will find that therapy is recommended usually all the time. Some people take the advice to get therapy, some won't. All depends on how someone feels about counselors. It's good that you have a positive attitude about therapists.

You seem really resigned to the fact that you're going to go through all this work for nothing. Seems as if you're giving up before you even start. With that line of thinking, you'll only see the negative all the time instead of the positive changes.

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I am petrified of being hurt like this again.


And it is scary. But I say, anything worth having is hard work. Doesn't come easy.
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 06:59 PM
a1b2,
I postedbefore I saw your last post. I hope you stick around a bit longer.

I think some people are frustrated because you seem to ask for solutions and then argue with most of what people say.

I also think some people will never be satisfied until you say, "OK, I admit it, I am a cheater, I am an adulterer, I had an affair..."

While I think that this is obviously an ineffective route to take with you, given the results it has had, I do worry that if you aren't even open to the possibility that you did something wrong, it could really hinder your ability to recover your marriage.

Maybe why it is so important to you would actually be a good place to start. Why are you so very against the idea that you may have had an "affair"? Why is worth so much of an arguement? Is it because your wife is using it to shift all the blame to you?
I have a feeling that has a lot to do with it.
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 07:04 PM
"She is truly remorseful NOW about the emotional affair but confesses to nothing more than an emotional affair. Very frustrating that it is only now that she admits to the emotional affair. Almost as if her feeling I had an affair makes it okay to admit to a lesser crime of an emotional affair now."

Look an affair is an affair. EA, PA, they are all equally destructive.

It's doubtful a 2 year EA was not a PA as well. VERY doubtful.

But even if it wasn't, it destroyed your marriage.

Then you just began participating in the destruction once it was already in full force.

Maybe you can put it to her that way.

It's the truth yet you are still admitting to your part.

She really needs to take some responsibility here. Even the Harleys say that there should be certain requirements in place that WS's meet before recovery can begin.
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 07:22 PM
Aside from emotional support, what you can get here is some brainstorming as you work through the process of recovery. This would supplement the counseling that you receive either by Steve Harley or another pro-marriage counselor. You don't need to exit stage...but you can, if you don't think there is anything more you can learn from those who have walked the path of recovery before you.

You just may want to read here for a while.
You are welcome here not matter what you decide.

I really hope you can achieve the fulfilling marriage with the mother of your child that you desire.

All the best.
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 07:30 PM
I think it's good to stick with this thread (instead of starting a new one) and just change the title as needed. Then there can be a continum of a1's story as they work through their recovery. The history is all in one place.
Posted By: dorry Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 07:38 PM
I hope you didn't take my last post as encouragement to leave, I was just stating that if you were looking for solutions and you don't like some of the solutions you get here, but instead have been going to some other posts that Justuss has had to edit 3 times...why are you here.

I think personally alot of the advice people are giving you is good advice that as someone above said can be coupled with councelling.

You may not like alot of the advice given - but it's been tried and true for working.

I am not looking for you to admit you are a WS. I know that there as much as I as a Christian believe it isn't over until it's a divorce, I am not you.

But I do see many good ideas and solutions being presented to you, but because they may not jive with your ideas you reject them. How bout trying some of them out?
Posted By: CSue Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 08:01 PM
Chris,

You're right I misspoke!

A slight correction.
The SITE is (should be?) always a reflection of MB because it is written by MB staff.

The FORUMS may or may not be since the (Harley's never post, whether it is to correct someone or give guidance.

Thank you for clarifying what I meant to say!
Posted By: Was Sad Tiger Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 08:25 PM
I had a similar situation.

Wife was having an affair.

I spent over a year trying to fix things. She had moved out, and was continuing her relationship with her OM.

I eventually met someone new. I fell deeply in love with her. When WW found out, she FLIPPED out completely. Was ready to come home and fix it, etc...

Here is where our stories diverge. I told WW to go away and never contact me unless it was about the divorce.

I *felt* like the marriage was dead and buried. I *convinced* myself that I was doing no wrong.

In 20/20 hindsight, I was wrong. What I did was have an affair. What *you* did was have an affair. No ifs ands or buts. You and I were married, you and I had relations outside the marriage. Period. End of discussion.

Were our affairs justified? Many, if not most people would say yes. I would say "yes." Does that make them *not* be affairs? No. Justified affairs sure, but affairs nonetheless.

You are making a mistake by belittling Melody, and insulting others, and you will wind up talking to only newbies if you keep it up with your condescending attitude. You need to learn a little humility.

Frankly, I find you obnoxious and boorish - talking about your money and big-shot job like it matters, but you deserve help like anyone else truly seeking help here.
Posted By: ACTdontreact Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 08:27 PM
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Good point. Well I am out of here then. Best of luck everyone.


a1,

I will be dissappointed to see you leave. You seemed to be processing some of the advice and principles available on this entire site.

Your wife is coming home to you in a few days and I hope she comes in with her tail between her legs with loads of regret for her previous misdeeds. I hope she has a willingness to move forward, in leaps and bounds, to quickly restore that which she has destroyed. If she doesn't, I hope you have the patience to wait long enough for her to come to that realization.

She is in fact a Wayward Wife. Knowing that I anticipate she will most likely respond according to script UNTIL your marriage is partially restored and recovery is fully committed to on her part (not just a "let's try"), the justifications she has lived her life by these last few years will continue to be her crutch until she realizes and accepts full responsibilty for her actions. You've been pushed to the brink and beyond. I commend you for your incredible perseverence to date. If you can maintain it a little longer together with hope, you two (adults) can acheive the fulfilling marriage you'd always hope for. IT IS WORTH IT, but only once you get there.

However, as I said in my 2nd post to you on the "Just Found Out" board...

Wish you well. You guys were so young. I didn't even
get married until I was nearly 30. For your son's
sake I know you'll give it an honest effort. Try to
take the relationship from scratch. She's now about
27 and (YOU BOTH) have had new experiences and
hopefully gained maturity...she's not going to be
the same little 19/20 year girl you married.

I am certain you have regrets about your behavior in the past. IMHO-your posts reveal your pent up anger and resentment hidden behind a confident, self assured exterior. You believe you are a good person with much to offer...but, are you?????? Only you can answer that. Go forward with the best effort possible so that if it actually doesn't work out you can seek happiness and fulfillment with someone else WITHOUT REGRET.

Good fortune to you,
ACT...Don't React
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 08:45 PM
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Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 09:48 PM
a1,

Wow. Thanks for sharing that. It truly gives us a little bit more insight into why you're so afraid to move forward w/your W. But this is the first time we've actually heard a decisiveness from you, when you said this --

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She is sincere. I am dedicated to trying to make this work. It is my heart that is betraying me not my desire.


Ok, you've made the decision to make this work. As far as your heart goes, it's afraid. It's afraid to reach out to her & actually feel anything b/c you don't want a repeat of history. This is perfectly understandable.

You two can do this if both of you are willing. She seems sincere, like you said. But let me warn you, you cannot sit back & try to let it happen on its own after she moves back home. This has got to be a conscious effort on both your parts in order to see that love back. Are you willing to do the work? If you are, & it sounds like you are, then maybe posting her ENs again & seeing how you can fulfill them would be a good start. It gives you some kind of plan to follow.
Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 09:54 PM
It is just MHO that you will be amazed and surprised when you experience the rush of emotion that will flow though you when you first set eyes on your wife and son. Perhaps overwhelmed would be a better word.

I guess my first impression is that you should spend a couple of days, perhaps even a few to become reacquainted, but set up a time for you two to honestly share your true feelings in a safe environment for the both of you. Perhaps set up some ground rules, and incorporate a Policy of Joint Agreement so if either of you becomes upset, angry or agitated, that you can agree to call a timeout, regain your composures and start up again when you are ready.

The more information that you exchange at that "meeting" the better, so you both have a common starting point on which to rebuild. No secrets, no holding back, a full and honest exchange of all that's transpired in your lives since you seperated.

Keep an open heart and an open mind, and listen and validate what she shares with you. Respectfully request she does the same for you.

Should be a mind boggling experience....

Best wishes,
SD
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 10:11 PM
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Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 10:20 PM
ahhhh... I guess I must have missed that....it's horrible rushing these posts in while at work sometimes... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I still think when you end up "together" for this "trial", you may have some feelings resurface that have faded, or you've supressed for a while.... at least I hope so.

This effort will take work. I'll stand by my previous post. Set aside time to discuss all these issues you have. Get as much out on the table as possible. You don't have to solve it all at once, either. But getting it out on the table right up front is a better plan than leaking tidbits out over an extended time. Going that route is like dying a death of a thousand cuts.

I sincerely hope you are up to the task. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes,
SD
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 10:28 PM
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Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 10:33 PM
Some of us aren't old. At the time this happened to us I was 32 & he was 31. Not old in my book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 10:38 PM
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Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 10:41 PM
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Whew!!! Good. I thought I was in the social security collecting group and believe me, if I was that old I would do whatever was necessary and would get ear muffs if necessary to stay with my spouse. LOL


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> At least you're keeping your sense of humor. It happens to the old, the young, the middle-aged alike, unfortunately.

Did you see my post I posted earlier? Do you have any thoughts?
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 10:41 PM
And I am 26 - was 24 when things fell apart.

And in reality, my journey parallels yours more than some others.

Probably why I posted to you - I can relate.

Too bad I can't share much - my ex reads here waiting to find something to torture me with.

But yes, I think that every aspect of who you are including age, sex, culture, religion, play a role in how you react. But all in all, the basics seem to remain pretty constant.

My question for you is this: How did things go with breaking it off with the other woman? Was that very difficult? Are you still grieving to some degree? How did the other woman take it?
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 11:15 PM
I’m curious, and I mean this seriously Do you always “react” rather than act without regards to others? Also, is it in your nature to communicate constantly with disrespectful judgments?

Think about it for a moment, and let me tell you what I hear in your words and I’m only doing this as an exercise so that you’ll see that people hear things differently.

“””No more crazed MB lovers.”””

I hear you saying that everybody, but my wife (FaithHopeLove) is a crazy MB lover.

“””No more constant references to books and MB doctrinarian.”””

I hear you saying that you are smarter than any book about relationships.

“””Before it was MB, MB, MB, MB. Holy crap! It was flat out freaky.”””

I hear you saying Marriage Builders and it’s principles SUCK.

“””Wait a second all of you people are old!”””

I hear you saying we’re old. I went through my fiasco when I was 30, that ain’t much different than 28. Heck, look at most of the people that responded to you. They are young and were young.

“””If you were 28 and going through this mess would you react differently?”””

I hear you saying I am right, you are wrong.

“””Are most of you just scared about dying alone?”””

I hear you saying that all you people are worthless.

OK, enough is enough and trust me I could go on and on but I only went back a few posts. My point is this, if I think you communicate this way and others have pointed out some communication issues, is it possible that that is a place where you could use some work, regardless of your current marital situation. But I would go on to add that improving your communication skills, eliminating the disrespectful judgments will go a long way in improving your relationship with your wife.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 11:34 PM
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Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/18/05 11:49 PM
Wow. There's a familiar ring in my ears...I do believe I've heard all this before...

That's all I can say because like I said, I'm being watched.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/18/05 11:54 PM
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Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 12:52 AM
a1,

What I hear you saying is that you think you're taking a step backward by agreeing to work on the marriage. Is this truly how you feel? It seems that you have your mind made up that this will end in disaster.
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 12:57 AM
Sorry, a1. Posted at the same time. Didn't see your last post. For a minute there, I thought you were avoiding me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope I wasn't one of the ones who irritated you. I truly do want to help you. You've acknowledged that you have a lot of anger inside of you. Have you ever acknowledged this to your W? Is that something you can communicate to her?
Posted By: dorry Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 01:01 AM
I am glad you have opened up A1, see this is a side of you that you didn't portray in the beginning. I am glad you want to make things work with your wife, and I think if both of you are committed to do doing so then you guys can succeed!
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/19/05 01:08 AM
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Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 01:40 AM
Are you sure you're not my H in disguise? LOL No, seriously, even though you don't think we have similar situations, I can see it all through your latest post. Although the situations for the M's falling apart are totally different, you & my H's thinking are exactly the same of why he was afraid to move back home & start fresh.

Let me explain a little bit & give you some history --

H & I had a child when I was 18 & he was 17. I then got pregnant w/twins when I was 21, him 19 & so we got M'd. All through our M (from my H's POV (point of view) I treated him like garbage. I would put him down, belittle him, very controlling. He was very withdrawn & kept things to himself. He tried to tell me in his own way that he was unhappy but I didn't hear him. We have now learned that he needed to voice his opinion louder. He started changing himself in order to "be the perfect H", the H he thought I had wanted. So he became very unhappy. He thought this is the H I wanted b/c I wouldn't complain anymore. So he kept changing bits & pieces of himself until I no longer complained regularly. But in the process of doing that, he changed who he was inside. He didn't like himself.

In comes the OW & treats him like gold. She listened to him, liked the same things he liked, laughed at his jokes, etc. Everything I never did for him. He was drawn to her instantly, as a friend at first & then he started to grow feelings for her. Yet, he was conflicted. He never believed in divorce, knew that he didn't want to hurt me by saying that he wanted a divorce, had 3 children at home whom he loved dearly & still felt as if I was his friend. He moved out anyway, saying that he needed to be himself. He couldn't be himself around me.

4 months later, after us talking about what each of us had done to destroy the M, I had told him that I could no longer be friends w/him like he wanted. That I needed time to heal from this breakup & couldn't be friends w/him right then. Maybe later, but not right then. When I withdrew the friendship, the talking on the phone together, the sessions of him venting & me listening, this is what he started to miss but he still thought to himself, What if I come back to her & she reverts back to her old self? What if I try this & it just ends up in disaster? We were too young when we got M'd, we each didn't have a chance to live. But he also thought to himself, I need to give it one more try. So he moved back home. But he made it very clear that he was giving it till the end of the year & if he didn't see changes that he was gone again. He slept on the couch for the first 2 months after he moved back home.

This was very hard for me. But then, we devoted the 15 hours a week doing recreational things together, as suggested by MB & even though he didn't "feel" love, he still gave me hugs, a quick kiss, we held hands, but no sex. About 1 month after that (total of 3 months), he started to think about me at work & told me for the first time since he moved back in, I love you too. He had realized it one day when he was at work & thought about me the entire time.

Have we had struggles? Yes. Have we wanted to give up at times? Yes. I have wanted to throw in the towel more than once, but then I think, do I really want to start over again dating? Do I really want to have my kids in two different homes & wishing that Mom & Dad still lived under the same roof? And, the ironic thing is, he's the one who was skeptical when he first moved in, but ever since he did, he hasn't regretted one moment. Oh yeah, he's gotten frutstrated, but from the things we've both learned & worked on, he knows that as long as he's himself & is true to himself & is honest w/me about where his feelings are at, then we can make it through.

We feel closer to each other more than ever before. We truly love each other & can't see us being w/anyone else.

You don't have to sacrifice yourself, who you are, in order to gain a lasting love. You need to be true to yourself more than anything, do not change who you are inside as a person. Just be willing to do some compromising, spend a lot of time together to "get to know each other" again, & very importantly, communicate. Radical honesty. Sometimes my H told me things that I absolutely did not want to hear, but I knew that maybe I needed to hear it. Same w/him.

You two can do this. Our odds were low too, just given the fact that we were teenagers when we M'd. Most teenage M's end up in divorce w/in a few years, especially when the man was 19 years old w/3 children & a wife already. But, we both were determined that we were not going to be a statistic. We were both going to give this our all & beat those odds.

It sounds like you're off to a good start. You've already made the decision. Now all you have to do is the work. Just don't be ready to call it quits if you hit a few potholes, k?
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/19/05 02:07 AM
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Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 02:23 AM
a1,

Don't have time to really go through your latest post in-depth. I have to watch a movie w/the kiddies. I need to spend some quality time w/them too. LOL I'm glad my post helped you in some way. Another similarity - my H's OW was 21 too (10 yrs his younger)! But, I won't let that cloud my judgment of your sitch, promise!!! LOL

Let me know how Skeleton Key is. I've wanted to see that movie too. Have fun!

PS - Although I'm a very spiritual person & usually post from a Christian perspective, since you're an Atheist, I'll try not to bring God into the conversations if this upsets you. Just let me know.
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 01:06 PM
“””This my thread about me.”””

You are correct and you have power in this marriage and seriously I’m trying to help you find that, you may view that as a personal attack or whatever. But let me tell you something, your marriage was broke. It took both you and your wife’s best thinking to get it to that broken area, as you said you both shouldered some of the responsibility. So if you go back into it yielding the same broken tools, the some broken marriage will result. So if asking you to look at your communication skills is viewed by you as an insult, I’m sorry that you take it that way rather than being open to the possibility that maybe you have an opportunity for growth.

“””This is my thread about helping me, if you don't want to help or don't want to learn from my experience then go to another thread.”””

Is that implying that you possibly couldn’t learn anything from my experience? Because that is what I take from what you’ve said. You know help comes in many forms and not all of it is wrapped up nice and neat in a little package.

”””I don't have time to worry about some complete strangers feelings when I am trying to get through this situation.”””

I feel you on that but if this is truly how you normally interact then is it possible that at times when talking to your wife that you don’t take the time to worry about her feelings?

”””Get over it if you got offended by my message about your age or others.”””

Again, it’s not that you’ve offended me that concerns me. My focus in those statements lays directly on your communication style.

“””Overly sensitive group here.”””

I mean look at this. Is this how you talk when you have conflict with your wife? Do you through in a little jab at the end to get the last word? If so, how’s that working for you?

“””Okay so I am confused, Faith is he your ex or your current husband? Please clarify.”””

As for FaithHopeLove04, we recently got married.

You know, whether it was an affair, adultery, or cheating, I’m not going to address that because I feel some of that boils down to core beliefs. Our beliefs are obviously different, but I will say that in your example, the last sentence on #3 is very telling to me.

“””I am willing to try as long as I don't have to sacrifice myself to do it.”””

I don’t think you’ll find anyone here who would ask you to do so but we and I do challenge you to continue to work on yourself. Again, your marriage didn’t get to the place it got because 2 emotionally healthy people were just bored with each other. You both had some character flaws that led you down the winding path. To me, that’s where your power awaits you.
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 01:41 PM
Gosh! I can certainately relate to your feelings of loss. I relate to your desire to push your feelings aside and move on just so you can stop thinking of the loss, the mistakes, the hurt. It is awful to think that you were given EVERYTHING on paper that you needed to achieve success, and you messed it up. You failed. You convince yourself that you are able to move on. But, you know what? With or without her, you CAN'T move on until you work through it--until you forgive and you reconcile what you have done to eachother. I actually totally agree with what faithhope.. says. Your W has been a jerk. You can SOUND like a jerk. But you are not talking about your FEELINGS. You are not confronting how sad she made you. You just want a solution, you want it to be over. I am the same way! You are intellectualizing everything and speak without emotion. You are analytical and practical. You don't want to sit around and whine and have some therapist LISTEN to you. You want a therapist to tell you what to DO. Don't get "freaked out" by us telling you to read the MB stuff. Honestly, once I read about the emotional need stuff, I was hopeful that for the first time, there was a solution. Have you read any of it yet? I have hope for your M. You have a shot at turning the M and the experience into a real success story. I really hope your W is remorseful. I hope that she will begin to concentrate on how she has hurt you and your M. I hope that you can learn to trust her again with your heart. Personally, I think that there should be no secrets. I know that you said you "don't care" what she did with OM. I don't think that is right. I think that secrets come back to haunt you. I think that she needs to confess what she did and to express remorse and sorrow to you. I think that you need to face your hurts and feel the pain before you CAN move on. Otherwise, you act on those buried emotions either by keeping your heart partially shut off b/c you don't trust, or whatever. Am I making any sense, a1?
Posted By: againstallodds Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 01:59 PM
I just reread your email to your W more carefully. It is beautiful. You are great at writing how you are thinking. I think that there is an underlying message of hope. You are afraid to feel with her now, and that is understandable. Hopefully, you have lost the old relationship. I really think that you will recover a new one that is way better.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/19/05 05:16 PM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 05:53 PM
Despite the fact that you have a clever sense of humor (and yes, I couldn't help but chuckle when I clicked that link), your rudeness truly amazes me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I don't see your logic about basically feeling free to treat "strangers" as rudely as you wish and that not being any sort of reflection on how you treat others close to you. Using that logic, would it be safe to say that you if you treat strangers in the store or anywhere out in public with complete rudeness and insensitivity that it would not show that you are basically a rude and arrogant person?

I certainly would not want to be close to a person that regularly treats others, even if they are strangers, with disrespect and rudeness. I feel that would tell me a great deal about what that person would be like in a relationship and what kind of person they are in general.

I have tried to be reach out to you because I see a hurting person and not just a "cheater" as maybe some others have. I realize that often people who come across as arrogant and opinionated are just using that as a mask to hide who they really are because they are afraid of being vulnerable. And being that I know LostHusband pretty well, I can assure you that he only desires to help you.

As LostHusband's wife, I can tell you that he has excellent communication skills. In fact, he has some of the best communication skills I have ever seen in a man. He does, however, hold people accountable for their words - he does with me as well. The funny thing is, a lot of people that are that way could never live up to the advice they give others in their own lives, but that is not the case with LostHusband. He holds himself to a higher standard than he holds to anyone else, and is continually looking inward to see where he has character flaws and needs improvement. The fact is, he puts me to shame. Many a disagreement has ended with me being humbled because HE has truly humbled himself and taken responsibility for his actions and wrong thinking while I am still sitting there brooding, feeling defensive. Most of our disagreements end in me crying tears of love and gratitude.

LostHusband is an amazing man, and he could look in that mirror and feel complete peace with who he is. I hope he orders it, because he deserves the blessing of getting to see a truly wonderful person staring back at him - and knowing it is himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? *DELETED* - 08/19/05 06:30 PM
Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 06:34 PM
Love ya, Faithhope...
from an old, old lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 06:39 PM
Sure, it is an online forum. However, people on online forums are still REAL people.

I have made some life long friends online, including a minister's wife who recently sent me a wedding gift and years ago sent me money for a breast pump after having my second child because my ex wouldn't get me one.

Recently, a young MBer was in danger of basically becoming homeless due to his WW's careless actions. There was an out pouring of people trying to help this "online stranger", even people offering for him to stay in their home. Why? Because most people on this forum truly care about each other, as PEOPLE, not just some anonymous typist on the other side of the computer.

If I were you I would take a second look at your last statement. Being rude and arrogant on an anonymous forum got you the same results being rude and arrogant in "real life" would have. People got offended and frustrated, bore down on you and then wiped their hands of you. Only a few people have taken the time to continue to try and converse with you. Sure, you can do pretty much whatever you want. But the question is WHY?

People here want to help. Maybe you could give us the courtesy of limiting your personal insults.
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 06:42 PM
Hey Trix, I've noticed we've been crossing paths on this thread, and a couple others in the recent past. Are we gluttons for punishment or what? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

And hey girl, you sure look good for being so "old"!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 06:48 PM
Thanks faith...you are doing a great job here with thoughtful, well written posts.
Posted By: LostHusband Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 06:50 PM
I’ve long admired one of those saying that say “Character is how you act when no one is watching” or in this case when you have no emotional ties to the people you’re dealing with. I would submit that it isn’t something you can always turn on and off as you’ve suggested.

I believe that it’s impossible to practice being arrogant, rude, and offensive to some people and that not bleeding into the important relationships in your life. I, personally, see how I interact with anyone as having a direct correlation on how I’ll interact with my wife. For example, if I spend time cussing with the boys around the water cooler, as much as I don’t want to cuss around my wife, eventually it’ll slip and that’s usually in a time of stress. So what’s the solution?

1. Is it to accept cussing as an acceptable means of communication with my wife?
2. Is it to try simply not cuss around my wife, but still cuss around all others?
3. Is it to see that this is unacceptable to me and remove it from all my interactions?

In my humble opinion, only one of these options has a remote, and yes I say remote chance of working and that is option 3. In doing so I’ve identified a character flaw and I’m working on that flaw throughout my life which in turn will have a positive impact on my relationship with my wife. You can insert just about any character flaw into that formula and the results will be similar. That’s not to say that there won’t be times of relapse in behaviors, but it does get you on the progressive road to better communication. Now if you think that arrogance, rudeness, and offensiveness are positive character traits then this is a mute point.

Yes, I admit that I probably didn’t point out these issues in my earlier posts in the most positive manner, however was truly only trying to provide you with feedback and an opportunity for growth. That you choose to meet any opposition with defensiveness and insults, is your choice. Again, I would question how much of that seeps into your dealing with your wife.

If you truly wish to explore the possibilities of creating a better marriage, then there is work to be done with open mindedness, honesty, and willingness. If you wish to engage in playground games, heck I can do that as well, but truly I’m more interested helping you help yourself.
Posted By: krusht Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 06:52 PM
Everyone!!

""Despite the fact that you have a clever sense of humor (and yes, I couldn't help but chuckle when I clicked that link), your rudeness truly amazes me!""

I would not call A1 rude, but maybe defensive...and I think he may have reason to be. We all have different styles of communication. Let's try to listen to the meaning of his posts and not hear the little jabs he feels he must include.

We must remember A1 makes $250K a year, drives around Laguna Beach in his hot sports car, and although he is 40lbs overweight, he KNOWS his stuff don't stink, i.e. 21 year old hottie. Today he has to do his conference calls with Best Buy, Good Guys, and the other stores that he name dropped. We know that this A type personality is short with his lackeys and his inferiors so we must cut him some slack.

Could this guy be Coach in disguise?? Wouldn't that be the ***ts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

k

EDITED: To put on that little SoCal smiley face.
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 07:13 PM
a1b2,
Have you noticed that you have an amazing knack for alienating those who are trying to care for you? Yes, care.

One thing I have learned in life is that loving, caring behavior is not always telling someone what they want to hear, it is telling the truth as best you see it.

We may be "just" a bunch of online nobodies to you, but we care about the people who come here for help, or we wouldn't be spending time here.

Maybe you should really take a look at this thread. Read the whole thing over again and try to see patterns in how you interact with people. Therein may lie some clues to help you better understand yourself. Understanding yourself will help you understand your relationship with your wife.

You may think you have no need for such soul-searching, but I beg to differ.

Let's look at this woman that you just hurt deeply. Not your wife, your ex-girlfriend. You got into a relationship with her even though you were still in some sense, tied to your wife (at least legally, and obviously emotionally too). You may have THOUGHT that you were totally done with your wife, although if so, I don't understand why a divorce was not already in the works. You didn't know yourself well enough to know that if your wife came crawling back, you'd dump this girl on her a$$, however gently you may have done it, it always hurts to fall. You broke the many promises you made to her and hurt both her and yourself along the way. Why? Because you didn't know yourself. If you did know you'd react that way, then shame on you for knowingly putting that girl in a position to get terribly hurt.

If you ask me, that is at least one area that shows wrong-doing and is one sign that indicates the need for some soul-searching and better knowledge of oneself.

PS- Thanks Trix! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 08:22 PM
a1,

Who are you? You said that you couldn't be the *real* you around your W, but you could w/the OW. You mentioned several things in your last post to me, but I got pretty confused if these were things that she said you did or that you really did?

As far as communication style, before you go all half-cocked & blow up at people who are trying to help you, please consider what they're saying for a minute. I suspect you're of the mindset that you say what's on your mind regardless if it hurts someone's feelings or not. And being you don't have to see them again if you choose, then you won't put things tactfully in order to spare someone's feelings. I used to tell my H that he had no couth (is that even spelled right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />). Has your W ever told you that?

It could very well be that you feel on the defensive all the time on here b/c of what everyone's been saying to you. I'm asking you to put down your guard for a little bit (I've been seeing it come out) & really be open to what others have to say.

I'm going to repeat to you cause I think you need to hear it -- You've tried things your way, they didn't work. Now how about opening yourself up to other options? You said you're pretty open about things, then please show it.

And like I said, I've seen it in the last few posts. I just want to remind you that the only way to change things in your life, is to start w/YOU. If you don't want a repeat of your old M, then you need to change some things about yourself. I suspect you have been, but there's always room for improvement. Isn't that what you said?

Let's start w/posting her EN's again. Just hers this time.
Posted By: Chris -CA123 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 09:00 PM
We didn't hide it with anyone (except spouse).
If there was nothing wrong with it, why did you hide it from your spouse(s)?
Posted By: ACTdontreact Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 09:30 PM
Not to jump on the bandwagon (once somebody is called out, it always seems to take on a life of its own). I, too, have speculated on the "Coach" thing. (for those unknowing it was recently a very popular thread which was apparently an elaborate fake story purposely delivered with titillation to perhaps seek attention or a writer developing a fiction story – still unconfirmed). The one step forward, one step back approach with a slowly evolving story-line looks familiar. I never saw Coach do this; but, it's a great way to get attention - the big footing around other threads with obnoxious "help" in order to perhaps draw attention to his own thread and enhance his "popularity".

On the other hand, it may be a reach for even the 50+ year old Coach to portray the immaturity displayed by a1b2. He's 28/29 and his thought processes reminds me of a 19 year old at college trying to find his way in the world. Only he's got money, a big time job, responsibilities and perceived prestige. I actually feel so sorry for him and that’s why I encouraged him to post and keep posting. I still have some hope he may get it.

If he is real, he is a small town boy that has abandoned his small town roots, his (as others elsewhere say) cult-like religion, and perhaps his family to live in the big city. Though he has abandoned his past and his God, he thinks he's made it. He believes he's successful and secure. He’s overcome his past and operating at a higher level than those around him (especially here for some reason). The religion of "a1b2", is paying off for him. In spite of this, he still lives in his own fantasy world. A narcissistic salesperson with the power to manipulate those around him to do, say and act as he wants sans his wife. He's in a world where he views others as objects that serve him, his needs, his happiness and his fulfillment. I would likely guess he believes his success comes from his ability at work to "sell" others as opposed to his ability to serve others. He smiles and glad hands his customers but despises and/or ridicules them behind their backs. His relationship with his wife reeks of immaturity. His letters though written with adult words and great prose remind me of my feelings when I got hurt/dumped in high school. He has little to no experience with women and what it means to be a man...as he is barely one himself. All these problems and he balks at looking inward (though he fakes it from time to time). Instead he hides himself on the internet, from site to site, trying on differing persona’s, engaging in meaningless arguments, applying his apparent sharp mind to deflect, avoid, and disregard any affronts to the religion of himself. He seeks out multiple counselors and therapists whom he believes he is superior to. At best he is unaware of his seeming narcosis, maybe he thinks he is seeking proverbial wisdom but really the entire time he is merely abusing and exploiting others good will and time.

If you are who you say you are come here to ask questions and listen. Chew on the advice, digest it before you respond. Act, don’t react. You do have a tremendous amount of growing up to do.

All and all you mostly appear lost. So lost your story has become unbelievable. Many here would love to help you find your way but you apparently don't see the need to grow up. But yet you're here. Why? The people here know more about life and marriage than anyone I have meet, known or talked to elsewhere. Your wife is coming back to you and you are going to need to man up. When you got married you made a vow to God, it’s only convenient and perhaps somewhat understandable how you don’t believe in Him now. God didn’t promise you happiness, but He did give you the greatest gift of all, a Wife. You owe it to yourself to find your own happiness and fulfillment with her and I applaud you for taking this first leap of faith and bringing her back into your home. Like I said before, it’s going to be an arduous journey, but worth it. Are you mature enough or man enough to make it work? I don’t know – it doesn’t appear so.

Now I find myself here to, continuing to feed into your egocentric hostility, inviting you to continue here, appreciating your apparent progress and offering words of encouragement along with deserved 2 x 4’s. I wish I could believe you were actually progressing, but I fear not. Not really. More likely I think that you are playing a game with us, to YOUR amusement only. I am not upset with you, more disappointed in you. No more for me. Enjoy "your" thread. I valued the help I received here on MB and will continue to dedicate my time and efforts to those that may actually value my help. I'm done with you and I doubt very, very much that you really care.
Posted By: krusht Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 09:41 PM
Act,

In the words of A1...""KILLER POST"!!!

k
Posted By: Elle_35 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 09:54 PM
a1--you used to be Mormon? I knew you sounded like family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was a devout Latter-Day Saint until about five years ago. I've been an atheist ever since.

When were you disfellowshipped? I'm not being judgemental, I've been there.

and let me guess why your wife left... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Vivivanviv Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 09:54 PM
What frustrates me to no end about this thread being responded to (and trust me I get that this guy needs some help) is that many threads are getting little or even no responses. I personally wish we could focus on people who actually seem to appreciate help.


Are we talking about the post from the woman who found child porn as coach?
Posted By: CarenMc Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 09:55 PM
A1-

YES, it was cheating, you were still married, so therefore it's adultery.....regardless of how long your wife was gone, or what she was doing while there.....even if she was having a full blown affair, and I'm not implying she was. (2 wrongs don't make a right)

You need to concentrate on HER emotional needs.....what is lacking in the relationship for HER......then take it from there.

You're refusal to admit that having a sexual relationship outside of your marriage as wrong leads me to believe perhaps YOU have some *issues*.

You ask for help on this site, and then choose to only listen to those who agree with you. Poor A1 his wife left him, who can blame him for boinking some other chick.

You are also HELLA condescending, implying we are all mindless and follow MB concepts because the Harley's are our leaders.....yeah, we're a cult, we have no free will.

BTW, Melody is a WONDERFUL person with TONS of fantastic insight..................it wouldn't hurt you to listen to what she has to say.

And, just an observation............I can't recall a single instance where MelodyLane's religious beliefs were brought into her advice to me or anyone else.

-Caren
Posted By: krusht Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/19/05 10:07 PM
Viv,

""Are we talking about the post from the woman who found child porn as coach?""

Coach3523 or some # like that after his name...The guy whose wife took a chunk out of his neck because she loved him so much, and was not going to go to his daughter's wedding because his W had an A with some professor and the W had to read a letter telling all about her transgressions to her kid's before the wedding.

Turned out to be total bullpoop...which we should have figured out.

Makes me much more suspicious now after being betrayed once..... boy that sounds familiar.

k
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 07:21 AM
Krusht,

True story. True personality.

Again, income was stated only once and that is because another site similiar to this one (well more of a divorce support group than a marriage support group) fried me left and right that I paid my wife to keep her mouth shut. I never could get them to understand that it was not a ransom it was simply what the state stated I had to pay, like it or not.

As for Laguna Beach, didn't mean to be that specific in my post. I have posted several message that had some personal information in them that I forget to remove when I post (names mainly) but usually I can get it corrected in time and I don't post that I edited it usually (or do so before I hit the post button). Didn't mean to yuppity. The sports car is the only reason why the mom say me so I had to tell that portion of the story otherwise how would she have seen me or perhaps I wasn't letting go of the OW properly etc. Just put it in there to clarify.

As for the 21 year old hottie. I get roasted all the time on that one too. Yes she was 21, it is a fact not a brag. I am a normal looking guy, I am balding, definitely the nerd type not the jock type. I make good money simply because I am good at what I do. I have only a high school diploma, come from a small town of 800 people. My parents barely make $40K a year between them. I get along great with them. Sorry for the name dropping. I was simply going through my outlook calendar and organizing my thoughts for the day in the post and I should have left out those details. It would have sufficed to simply say that I have a lot of meetings, but I have a tendency to share too much at times.

So Krusht, sorry for the way I came off (yeah a trend here I guess as faith's hubby so happily points out, wink wink)
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 07:33 AM
FaithHopeLove04,

I didn't think I was done with my wife, I knew I was. She then reacted very distraut and I don't like hurting people I love and respect (yeah this thread will balk at that I am sure). I still loved my wife for being my son's mom, for our history together, etc. I didn't want to hurt her. She took it horribly. She called the other woman and chewed her out telling her she was an adultress, that she destroyed a family, she was a slut, a b1tch, etc.

Then she told me that she will do everything in her power to make sure that my son is never around her. So if I plan to be with her then I will have to sacrifice spending time with my son because she will move back to California and live in a cardboard box if she has to in order to keep her son away from the other woman.

I called my lawyer, she said to do whatever I needed to do to keep her happy until my son got back to California. So I did that. Then she started doing decent things. She told me that she loved me. Started filling some of my emotional needs (nothing physical). Then she laid on the guilt and I felt obligated to try. Then a few weeks went by and I started to truly think that we might have a chance. Then another week or two and we had resolved huge issues in our marriage. Now I am letting her move back in so I can see if this is all just a short term thing or if we can truly make it work. She will be here in 36 hours.

Believe me when I was with this other woman. I was over my wife. That I know for certain. It is the unique turn of events that brought me closer to my wife again. How? When it was made up of threats? Of custody protection motives? I don't know, but it happened.

Yes I wronged the other woman. I know that. I also made a million mistakes in the marriage. I guided us towards the steps that led us to this point. I take responsibility for making errors. I know that. I live with it everyday.

Again I want to change.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 07:42 AM
StandingTogether,

Yes I feel defensive because of the tone of this entire site, because of the religous ferver that runs through here that just irritates me to no end because of my past experience with my church and before that my realization that there was no God, because of people being so stubborn in their views, closed minded, stating dictionary definitions, etc.

I am trying to put down my guard. I have done so selectively and will do that with more people as I trust them.

You wanted the ENs one moment as I locate that thread and post it back here:

Wife's only (as requested):
Honesty and Openness 1
Affection 2
Admiration 3
Sexual Fulfillment 4
Family Commitment 5
Domestic Support 6
Conversation 7
Physical Attractiveness 8
Financial Support 9
Recreational Companionship 10
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 07:57 AM
Now here you go. So far I only see you trusting a couple people. Well, that'll come w/time I guess. And I was ok until you said this --

Quote
before that my realization that there was no God,


Now why'd you have to go & say that to ME of all people after I just got done telling you that I'm a highly spiritual person! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Goodness boy, what are we gonna do w/you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> J/K (just kidding) BTW (by the way). But I gotta warn you, sometimes the word God slips out sometimes (can't help it-it's part of who *I* am).

Okay, onto the other stuff. How do you propose to fill those ENs of your W's after she gets back? Seems like you've already started w/the honesty & openness. That might have been part of the reason why she was so insistent upon coming home. Now question is, are you brutally honest as in say whatever's on your mind w/o thinking or do you think first & try to put it in a way that will minimize the blow? I have a feeling I know which one it is, just curious what you think.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 08:05 AM
ActDon'tReact:

I am not coach nor I am making any of this up. It is all true, perhaps unbelievable, I know I feel like a story from Letters to Penthouse or an episode on Jerry Springer . . . but that is my life and I ahven't even got into the other stresses of my life. Self destructing? Perhaps.

You shouldn't be so threatened by the money or the job. Get over that part please. For the 8,000ith time I mention it only because in the divorce support groups they continued to state that I paid a ransom to my wife to keep her mouth shut for something otherwise I would have never paid that much money to her. I put the money as a justification for the high payouts. Job I gave too many details of by mere thought process of the time of going through my outlook calendar and outlining to the group why I wouldn't be able to post much today. I shouldn't have shared the detail but I did. Mistake, sure since it got people more miffed at me and for a silly reason.

I felt I was successful and secure until November 2003 when my world fell apart. In fact I told my parents shortly after my son was born that I couldn't be more happy, a wonderful happy, healthy, adorable baby, a loving, supportive, knock dead beautiful wife, I was making more than I ever imagined monetarily, and I owned 4,000 sq ft home. It couldn't get any better. I was right it couldn't, since then I have lost all the important things. I lost 50% of the time with my son, lost my wife, took a 20% pay cut, was forced to sell the nice home, and I am left completely lost having no clue what the next 3 years of my life will bring, as I could have never guessed how the last three would have been so grand and wretched in such a short span. However, I will recover. I must recover. It is who I am and what drives me internally. Overcome an obstacle and rise above it. I will do it, what will be the outcome though I do not know. Perhaps it will be with my wife (I truly hope so, or maybe it will be with someone else). I refuse to peak at 28 years old though.

Think what you wish of me, regarding the salesman job, the religion, or whatever else that paragraph said, it doesn't affect me, I am confident in myself and I am happy with who I am. You don't know me and aren't seeing every side of me. This will sound narcisstic, but I just don't care. I deal with rejection daily. I press on and find some other way to accomplish my goal. So perhaps you won't be someone who helps, that is fine. I move on. Sorry, just isn't a big deal to me.

My religious bitterness can be found in other posts. I am too lazy to repost them here for you.

My inmaturity? I am very inmature in this aspect of my life but not in all aspects of it. I have dated three woman in my life and had sex with two. I have very few notches in my bed posts and I prefer to keep it that way. I have very little experience in a relationship. But why should I follow anyone else blindly on such an important matter? I am digesting I am reading and writing trying to learn but I am doing it in my own way. If that bothers you that is your choice. We all have Free Agency, that is a gift from your God or a gift from my government (depending on the perspective).

I serve no one and no one serves me. We are all equal overall but some have greater strengths than others. Suicidals I have no respect for, that is my personal stance. It is the most selfish act a person can do. No, no personal experiences in my life with suicide or suicidals, just my personal beliefs that this world is all we get so . . . don't end it prematurely.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 08:47 AM
Elle_35,

I was baptized when I was 15 years old after the LDS missionaries came in and taught me and my family (mom, dad, sister and I) the 6 lessons. I gravitated toward it the most out of everyone. I had always ended youth church groups eventhough my mother, father, or sister never attended. My dad was raised Seventh Day Adventist and my mom was raised Methodist.

We made the committment to get baptized and while the baptism was nothing special to me, the confirmation of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the laying on of hands to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost was something very intense for me. It was as if someone had cracked an Ostrich egg on my head and I felt the Holy Spirit envelope me. I cried with the greatest joy at that moment in my life.

My family and I attended Church together for about a year when the Bishop told my dad that he had to get up in front of the congregation next week and bear his testimony to the congregation if he wanted to continue on the path of taking our family to the temple to be Sealed Together for Time and All Eternity. My dad dropped out of high school at the age of 16 to start work and help support his family. He is extremely intelligent but not well with his words and public speaking is by far his greatest fear. He told the bishop that he couldn't do it. The bishop told him that he had to do it. This went on for a couple of months and dad finally came home after church one day very upset and said that he was sorry that he led our family estray. That this could not be the true Church of God if this was a requirement in order to be together as a family forever. He told all of us to stop going to church. I told him he was being ridiculous and that, though I understood his personal fear, he should not let it cloud his mind about the principles and teachings and trueness of the Living Gospel. I told him that I still very much believed and would continue to go to church. To make a long story a bit short (but not much), I went on to be the Seminary President, Especially for Youth Leader at Rick's College, and later decided to go on an LDS mission. By then I had dated one of the High Counselman's daughters and we were sexually deviant (oral only). I confessed this to the Bishop though and it did not affect my ability to get admitted to BYU (though I feel my grades of a 3.85 GPA, National Honor Society President, Seminary President, plus me being a convert, did more to offset it than them just wanting to accept a deviant youth into BYU).

I broke up with the sexually deviant girlfriend (I was the other man by the way, she had a boyfriend in a nearby city) to cleanse myself of the inequity. I started dating my wife right afterwards (she was my bestfriend's sister) and we became sexually deviant quite quickly (but no oral). I left on my mission 8 months later.

I entered the Missionary Training Center and I saw what my soul should have never saw. I learned there that the lessons are all preplanned. That the questions we had, everyone has and it wasn't the Lord guiding the prayers and the scriptures that we read it was a well planned out set of progression to get the student to baptism. After baptism it doesn't stop though. There is aplan for them after that too. A plan to engage the fellow members of the church with them so that they can relate to them and be friends with them so that they can keep them in the fold more easily. God was quickly being replaced by a well thought out, very effective sales pitch. One were you build on common beliefs, build relationships of trust, use a sense of discovery and goal setting and resetting to lead the customer (excuse me) child of God toward a particular goal. I concept of line upon line and precept upon precept. If asked about Heavenly Mother, deny it because it is too early in their development to accept that yet, if there is talk about Kolob, ignore it or laugh it off they will learn those principles when the Lord is ready to reveal it to them, now would not be the time, I was to teach Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, nothing more. The basics.

My own Faith was wearing thin. I exited the Missionary Training Center and went my mission home in Ogden, UT (yes I was sent to Ogden, UT of all places). There I had the 'opportunity' to server in Bountiful, UT and in the area right near the temple. At the time it was 99% active LDS members and the one inactive was an anti-mormon (talk about swimming upstream). We taught the inactive members of the church. We had dinners and lunches with Apostles, members of the Seventy and other presigious church leaders. What did I learn? I learned that the wife of one of the Apostles was so lonely and distraught about her husband being gone so much that she broke down and cried at dinner. My companion and I tried to consull her but her thought processes were ones I had to agree with. If the church was so pro family why hasn't the apostle seen his in months? (He was traveling abroad, I believe Jerusalem) I also found out that eventhough the church didn't pay its leaders it did pay for leaving expenses (and quite well I might add) but they did not give a salary. A half-truth and only one of many.

Despite that I stayed on my mission but began to swim upstream a bit. I got transferred to Tremonton, UT and there I was with a companion that had a serious Word of Wisdom problem but I didn't rat him out. However I lost more of my testimony when he would drink to complete drunkeness on friday and Saturday night then give a sermon on Sunday (several times, several different churches) about how important it was to obey the Word of Wisdom and how his following of it in his life has blessed him in so many countless ways. Then many of the congregation would come up and tell him how they felt the Spirit and would be crying and blah blah blah. I was thinking if you only knew this guy is fighting a hangover, if you even knew what a hangover was . . .

The story gets much longer but more or less 9 months in I said f it I am done. I rented a car and drove 12 hours home. [wife] and I started dating. Started having sex. Got married in the Temple (yes, unworthy) went to church for another year and then. . .stopped going. I became an atheist during that time period from the MTC to about 18 months after marriage. I defined myself as Atheist about 3 years into our marriage. I got disfellowshipped when I went to the church asking them for marital help about a year ago. I told them all details trying to be open and honest with them and a God that I felt didn't exist but perhaps did and could help me. They responded with a disfellowship and a message to pray. Nothing more.

Kind of the icing on the cake.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 08:50 AM
StandingTogether,

Brutal honesty of course. LOL

For my religious background see the other posts.
Posted By: Symphony of Life Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 12:21 PM
a1b2...

I can really relate to how you feel about religion. I've been through similar disappointments and frustrations. I am not a fan of organized religion, I'm not affiliated with any church, nor will I ever be. I do not call myself a Christian.

I went through a time when I was pretty sure there wasn't a God. I still kept searching, there was something in me that felt faith in God was for me but no real direction of where to find him. I couldn't rely on the church. I wasn't sure I could trust many of his people (I have many stories like you). So much of what seemed like sin to me all in the name of God.

You know, from reading your posts you've come to a logical conclusion based on the words and actions (or inaction) of PEOPLE that has caused you to walk away from a faith in God. I decided I wanted my faith in God. That faith is between God and myself. I don't have to depend on anyone (people or the church) to have my faith. It's personal. I actually don't share the same beliefs with many people I know. Athiests seem to relate to me well because I feel the same way as them about many aspects but am still able to have my faith. My H is an athiest and we have the best convo's.

The one thing I urge of you and the reason for my post is to not let them (organized religion and the people who distort religion) take from you something so precious as your faith. Then you have truly allowed them to do the utmost damage. You own your faith and a relationship with God is personal. No one can take that from you if you don't let them.

Take care,
Symphony
Posted By: MrsWondering Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 04:50 PM
We just wanted to put Act's post back at the forefront of this thread for a few reasons...

-We most definitely agree with it. Well said Act!
-We believe that a1 is trying to post as much as possible in hopes that others miss it and he can continue his drama.
-As Viv pointed out in an earlier post their are actually people on this board that are in need of help in applying Marriage Builders principles to their situations and they are being neglected because we are all so caught up in this STORY/SOAP OPERA !

We would like to propose that until a1 begins a new thread asking questions about things that he can do to help his marriage with the use of MB principles that we all leave him to further his "yarn spinning" on a board for people looking for this summer's must buy "beach novel".

Mr & Mrs. Wondering

Quote
Not to jump on the bandwagon (once somebody is called out, it always seems to take on a life of its own). I, too, have speculated on the "Coach" thing. (for those unknowing it was recently a very popular thread which was apparently an elaborate fake story purposely delivered with titillation to perhaps seek attention or a writer developing a fiction story – still unconfirmed). The one step forward, one step back approach with a slowly evolving story-line looks familiar. I never saw Coach do this; but, it's a great way to get attention - the big footing around other threads with obnoxious "help" in order to perhaps draw attention to his own thread and enhance his "popularity".

On the other hand, it may be a reach for even the 50+ year old Coach to portray the immaturity displayed by a1b2. He's 28/29 and his thought processes reminds me of a 19 year old at college trying to find his way in the world. Only he's got money, a big time job, responsibilities and perceived prestige. I actually feel so sorry for him and that’s why I encouraged him to post and keep posting. I still have some hope he may get it.

If he is real, he is a small town boy that has abandoned his small town roots, his (as others elsewhere say) cult-like religion, and perhaps his family to live in the big city. Though he has abandoned his past and his God, he thinks he's made it. He believes he's successful and secure. He’s overcome his past and operating at a higher level than those around him (especially here for some reason). The religion of "a1b2", is paying off for him. In spite of this, he still lives in his own fantasy world. A narcissistic salesperson with the power to manipulate those around him to do, say and act as he wants sans his wife. He's in a world where he views others as objects that serve him, his needs, his happiness and his fulfillment. I would likely guess he believes his success comes from his ability at work to "sell" others as opposed to his ability to serve others. He smiles and glad hands his customers but despises and/or ridicules them behind their backs. His relationship with his wife reeks of immaturity. His letters though written with adult words and great prose remind me of my feelings when I got hurt/dumped in high school. He has little to no experience with women and what it means to be a man...as he is barely one himself. All these problems and he balks at looking inward (though he fakes it from time to time). Instead he hides himself on the internet, from site to site, trying on differing persona’s, engaging in meaningless arguments, applying his apparent sharp mind to deflect, avoid, and disregard any affronts to the religion of himself. He seeks out multiple counselors and therapists whom he believes he is superior to. At best he is unaware of his seeming narcosis, maybe he thinks he is seeking proverbial wisdom but really the entire time he is merely abusing and exploiting others good will and time.

If you are who you say you are come here to ask questions and listen. Chew on the advice, digest it before you respond. Act, don’t react. You do have a tremendous amount of growing up to do.

All and all you mostly appear lost. So lost your story has become unbelievable. Many here would love to help you find your way but you apparently don't see the need to grow up. But yet you're here. Why? The people here know more about life and marriage than anyone I have meet, known or talked to elsewhere. Your wife is coming back to you and you are going to need to man up. When you got married you made a vow to God, it’s only convenient and perhaps somewhat understandable how you don’t believe in Him now. God didn’t promise you happiness, but He did give you the greatest gift of all, a Wife. You owe it to yourself to find your own happiness and fulfillment with her and I applaud you for taking this first leap of faith and bringing her back into your home. Like I said before, it’s going to be an arduous journey, but worth it. Are you mature enough or man enough to make it work? I don’t know – it doesn’t appear so.

Now I find myself here to, continuing to feed into your egocentric hostility, inviting you to continue here, appreciating your apparent progress and offering words of encouragement along with deserved 2 x 4’s. I wish I could believe you were actually progressing, but I fear not. Not really. More likely I think that you are playing a game with us, to YOUR amusement only. I am not upset with you, more disappointed in you. No more for me. Enjoy "your" thread. I valued the help I received here on MB and will continue to dedicate my time and efforts to those that may actually value my help. I'm done with you and I doubt very, very much that you really care.
Posted By: Trix Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 05:02 PM
I still say it is nice to have the history all in one place. I would suggest that he just change the title to a new question or whatever so we know what help he'd like or that he's ready to get help rebuilding his marriage.

I am sure that stuff will come up when his wife gets back home. Maybe he could start a new thread over in Recovery...although there tends to be less traffic there.
Posted By: Elle_35 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 08:14 PM
Yep, a1, sweetie...you're one of us. I thought so. You had all the signs.

I don't know if you've been to the Recovery from Mormonism site, but there's a bulletin board there that might help you out when you need to talk about all this. I've been a poster there for a few years. It helps... sometimes it gets kinna rough there. It's a fast-moving place.

How does your wife feel about Mormonism? All this Marriage Board stuff doesn't apply if she's still a devout believer. If she's in, and you're out, there will never be any Plan A or Plan B that will ever work. Worlds without end.

Here's someting else you may want to consider: Resigning formally from the Mormon Church. Once you have been disfellowshipped or excommunicated, even if you are fully reinstated you need to know that YOUR RECORD is PERMANENTLY FLAGGED. No matter where you go, no matter what you do, no matter how much personal repenting you do, your record is red-tagged for anyone in a bishopric (or higher level) to see.

Oh well, you might say, not such a big deal... right? Hang on... the Church Office Building now has a 1-888 phone number that priesthood leaders can call (once again, that means pretty much anyone on the bishopric level or higher) where--according to my sources on RFM-- they can enter your membership record number and get the details of your "Court of Love". Was someone at your court taking notes? Those notes, or a copy of those notes, may now be in downtown SLC, Utah. Happy day!

Even if there was a Jesus or a God who could forgive you of your, um, "sins", the Church will not ever forgive or forget. You are a second-class citizen. Nothing you can do, no calling you ever hold or amount of tithing you ever pay, is going to change that mark on your record. You move into a new ward in another state... your co-worker could be in your bishopric, and... even if you never attend a day of Church... they'll know.

My story: Born into the Church, daughter of the pioneers & polygamists, raised in your old mission area... kewl. BYU grad, married another Mormon, mission AP, great guy. When I was 27 discovered that Joseph Smith married other men's wives--including the wives of "worthy" men who officiated at the sealing ceremonies! Yuck. And then he pressured Helen Mar Kimball into a marriage with him... he was 37, she was 14. Double-yuck.

I freaked out. I still believed the Church Was True, but I thought that my understanding of the Gospel was all wrong... I tried to do what I could to be worthy, to accept Heavenly Father's Plan for Me... which apparently might include polygamy up in Heaven. (insert gagging sound....now). After a few months of struggling, I thought that I should probably let my husband off the hook and move on with someone more worthy & more Mormon than myself (and hey, I was pretty Mormon... but you never really feel completely good enough, do you?...).

Thus my own brief affair. I'm not proud.

I confessed to my bishop (and everyone else in the bishopric) because I thought the Spirit could help put me back on track. Nope, nope, nope! I got about what you did. A letter, and a pat on the head. And of course they got the whole confession story from me... they wanted every single detail. When I think of all the things I said to that room full of men, I want to die. And they took notes.

I was refellowshipped a few months later.

I became very devout for two years, and then one day I went to the library and started reading, reading, reading.... the history that the Church doesn't want you to read. Suddenly it all made sense. The pieces fit. But leaving the Church is like leaving The Matrix. Part of you will always miss what you had. And you'll lose friends, family, and yes, even your spouse.

Sorry if this is too long and rambling. Hang in there.

Did I ask this already---how is your wife's testimony of the True Church, Brother a1? Is she still a believer?
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 09:59 PM
Elle_35,

I am not an anti-Mormon (sounds like you crossed over). However, I am most definitely not a supporter anymore. I can confirm that there are indeed detail membership records (mentioned this in my session with the bishopric and, yes, ward clerk--taking nots of course--the bishopric denied it). I told them that I used to use the records in Bountiful, UT in order to discover the members that had taken a hand or two off of the Iron Rod. They all said they had never seen such records and that I must be mistaken. I told them that I used them for three months on a daily basis. I had conversations with members of the Seventy about them. That I was in the stake meetings wherein 'dutiful prayer' consisted of flipping through these records. They still denied it. I told them fine they can lie about it if they wish but I knew why the ward clerk was there. Didn't know about the 888 number but makes sense. I did know about the membership records being tied to this level of detail though.

I think you went a little to anti-Mormon but that is your own choice. I have read a lot of deep doctrine and have never once came across the Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives thing. I know that him and Brigham have had dozens upon dozens of when sealed to them after they died but have never ran across what you state. I have read the original Adam God theories (actually makes good sense to me) and have seen how version one of a set of works is completely different than the versions they may print today, that irritates me.

My wife is a bic (for you non-mormons, born in the church) and still has an unwavering faith. I respect her for it as I am not able to have such a faith. Her mom has articles published frequently in the Ensign and her grandfather was a temple patriarch (yeah, they are in deep). She however married me, a rebel and a rebel that becomes more rebellious in the face of scripture totting conservatists. She plans to raise our son in the church and I do not object as long as I can be open with my views that I believe the church is an organization of men and that religion may or may not be true. I don't want my son to be atheist but I don't want him to be close minded.

The funniest thing of all is that I can 'fake it' better than most and my knowledge of the scriptures, my ability to pray when I am called to do at the in-laws is 'spritually moving' (which is really nothing more than being emotionally moving), etc.

I have no interest in becoming an anti-Mormon. I still refuse to say my temple name or my spouse's temple name. I figure that I may be wrong. I don't want to utter the name and then have my eternity damn3d because of it or worse have my wife's.

By the way, my wife never plans on confessing to the church for her role in the horrible mistakes we made in our marriage. I encourage that decision considering she will most definitely be marked for life. I told her to see a Catholic confessional though if she wants to get it off her chest, she told me that she can repent on her own to God.

For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
Moro. 7: 5

I appreciate your offer to have me visit the site you suggest, but I respectfully decline.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 10:58 PM
Was Sad Tiger,

Thank you for you post. Justified? Something I hadn't considered.

Sorry for not responding sooner. Didn't see your post until I started deleting.
Posted By: Was Sad Tiger Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 11:31 PM
np a1 - sorry to have been so blunt.

Hang in there, & be nice to Melody!
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 11:46 PM
a1b2,
First of all, I am so sorry for what your "church" did to you. That is not showing God's love, that is just plain sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I read your story with great interest as I have had many experiences with Mormons. I grew up with one in school. She was literally the most miserable girl I ever knew and her family was a disaster. Of course I have known some others that were not as miserable. We had many mormons in NC, and of course, the cute, polite, clean cut missionaries in our home, where I listened with curiosity to hear how they would pitch it to us, since I already knew far more than they would disclose. They indeed tried the laughing off approuch, but did admit to me that they "baptise" the dead, so to speak. I saw clearly how they will focus ONLY on the beliefs that are very similar to fundamental Christianity - leaving us to question them as to why we would change if our beliefs were the same! The only answer being that our family could be together for all eternity if we were Mormon.

My sister's friend recently married a Mormon, in the temple in Orlando. She was raised Catholic - from Peurto Rico. Her own mother was not allowed to attend her wedding. The couple was heading for divorce before they'd been married a year. They are now trying to break free from the control and are attending a non-denominational Christian church.

a1b2, maybe at some time you might consider that you seem to have gone from one extreme (a cult) to another (atheism), never really experiencing the basic, plain, simple, accepting love of our Heavenly Father through people who just love Him form their hearts, without all the hoopla. It is understandable, a natural reaction even. Atheism as a reaction to a bad experience with "religion".

You are an intelligent man, that is plain to see. I know how it is - not always a blessing, sometimes a bit of a curse. I say that because I am certifiable, lol, just kidding, I am officially "gifted", meaning I have a high IQ - was tested as a child and spent my middle and high school years at a "School for the Gifted". I say that jsut to say that in my own experience and in observation of others, I have seen that very intelligent people like to think and think and think, and we trust our brains a lot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We think about it forwards and backwards and sideways and inside out. Which is great, but sometimes our best human understanding is our worst enemy. Because I firmly believe we can't see the whole picture.

It is good that you don't "just accept" things. I am the same way. And believe it or not, I bristle at LostHusband just like you sometimes. Heck, I wasn't too happy the first time he posted to me. But I soon grew to adore his heart and see the wisdom in his words. I often joke with him, saying, "Now Billy, what would LostHusband say about this?" When I first was getting to know him, I was often surprised that he had a great sense of humor and a very sensitive heart. We have talked many times about the way he comes across on MB. That is just his style here, sometimes it works, other times, people may take offense. But believe me, his words of wisdom are hard won and he is one of the most insightful people I know - well, probably the most.

I see your guard starting to come down little by little, and that is very important when it comes to learning and receiving from others. I am glad.

I hope that when your wife arrives, that you will keep us updated and keep coming back for some more irritating, annoying, opinionated, judgmental advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 11:50 PM
Oh, and btw, my typing in no way reflects on my intelligence! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I CAN spell, believe it or not, but I never learned to type! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Elle_35 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/20/05 11:54 PM
No problem. Fwiw, I've never considered myself an "anti" Mormon, just an informed one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good luck w/your marriage. Sounds like your wife is devout... and if she's devout... you cheated. But methinks you knew that already.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:00 AM
FaithHopeLove04,

Of course I will come back. I will however delete my previous posts on a weekly basis (or try anyway) as my wife would be livid that I share so much information with complete strangers let alone deep 'secret' situations.

I like you, you know that. Your hubby, perhaps I will learn to like him--and I mean that sincerely. Others, well we are just different breeds that shouldn't try to force a friendship or kinship.

That's cool that you are a gifted high IQ person. Never been tested. School, college (though I didn't finish because I decide to ride the wave of my career; never knew it would last this long), work, comprehension, etc. but considering my wife is smarter than I am by quite a margin, I doubt I could say I am gifted. The stress of life lately has been getting to me too and my memory doesn't seem to be too perfect. I am in the middle of a major lawsuit, my mom is still talking (as of a few weeks ago) to the other woman and lied about it repeatedly, I have the marriage and other woman drama, new boss at work that measures pay by education versus contribution to the company so I am having to justify my salary to him, selling of the out house, living in this sh1t hole of a rental and expected to smile about it, etc. But I am not looking for sympathy just stating why I may come off a bit grumpy. LOL
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:02 AM
faithhopelove04,

No biggie, I never re-read these posts so mine is chalk full of grammar and spelling errors--let alone typos. Informal setting and thus I don't stress about making sure all the t's are crossed and i's dotted.
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:14 AM
Believe me, I understand stress. (My ex filed against my petition to relocate to be with my husband and is threatening to file for custody of my 2 little girls.) And yes, stress can have a major impact on your short-term memory. I know it does mine.

Did you delete the post in which you talked about how you liked my style but not my husbands? I went back to re-read something and can't find it. Am I losing it?

Why is your mom still talking to the other woman?

I have a compassion for your situation and for the other woman that others may not have because I myself could easily be marked with the scarlet letter, at least here on MB. I actually keep a good part of my post-separation story to myself for fear of being branded here, in a way that I feel would be very unfair and unproductive. If you ever decide that you value our insight enough or that you need to talk more than you can on a public forum, you would be very welcome to e-mail LH and I personally (if you e-mailed me, I would copy to him and vice-versa) - we have done that before - and then I would share in greater depth, which I think can be really so much better - more helpful and more interesting. It can actually be kinda fun. Just keep that in mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope your having a great night. I am here, missing my incredibly wonderful hubby, who is 26 hours away! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:24 AM
Sorry but in my situation with my son in DC 50% of the time I side with your ex and would do the same thing if I had the chance to do it all over again. Of course she and my son will be here tomorrow so my situation is a little different.

I deleted all my posts except for those in the past 24 hours. This will be a weekly thing (hopefully for me) I delete the quotes (well actually I probably could delete other's posts but that could earn me an even worse bad reputation).

I won't IM anyone as I feel that you are still a stranger no matter how much I post publicly. Going private opens me up to way too many identity theft, kidnapping, ransom, and other ill-harm situations. I surf the internet about 12 hours a day (less on the weekends) and I have been around the block a few times to realize the dangerous out there. People may seem to be one thing and end up being something completely different. Not a risk I am willing to take with the ones I love.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:26 AM
faithhopelove04,

Word of advice from someone that has done the long distance custody issues, stay local to your children. They have been through enough.

My wife and I are looking a dropping the the career (yes, the one that everyone thinks I am all hung up on) and moving back to the Pacific Northwest starting our own little $60K a year online business and just chilling versus the very fast paced, corrupt, life of The OC.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:30 AM
Elle,

BTW, read your posts. Don't nail your hubby to the cross, but watch him closely. He seems cooperative and wanting to back out (he's a guy though and affection and attention from attractive female is tough to turn down). Keep a short leash but be willing to let him run on the beach once in a while (as long as you can keep him in sight).
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:43 AM
"I delete the quotes (well actually I probably could delete other's posts but that could earn me an even worse bad reputation)."

Really? You can do that? How?

"I won't IM anyone as I feel that you are still a stranger no matter how much I post publicly. Going private opens me up to way too many identity theft, kidnapping, ransom, and other ill-harm situations. I surf the internet about 12 hours a day (less on the weekends) and I have been around the block a few times to realize the dangerous out there. People may seem to be one thing and end up being something completely different. Not a risk I am willing to take with the ones I love. "

LOL! That's hilarious to me (though understandable). I am picturing LH and I right now, the evil hackers and identity theives...heehee *evil laugh*.....

BTW - your previous comments about people online looking for money, etc. You must have misunderstood me. Someone sent ME money for a breast pump after I had my second baby. I have had nothing but very positive experiences, though that is probably due to where I have met people - here and a Christian miscarriage support group.

As for you doing the same thing, etc - we are talking apples and oranges. My ex walked away. I begged him not to do that to our family and our kids. He knew the consequences and he made his choices. The OW (my former best friend) was more important (even though supposedly they were not having an affair, they were "just friends"). He gave up his kids so he wouldn't have to give her up. They are little and I have always been their primary care giver. He is military and will be transferred out of this state anyway. Why should I be chained here, to a place that only people like you can afford? You would be middle-class here, no one would bat an eye at your salary like they have here on MB.

Sorry, my soap box...
Posted By: faithhopelove04 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 12:48 AM
"Word of advice from someone that has done the long distance custody issues, stay local to your children. They have been through enough."

They have been through enough, you are right. But they deserve a chance at a better life and my husband deserves to be near his three girls, as he is not the one who chose to break up his family either and he is far more involved in their daily lives than my ex is with my girls. My husband moved to be in the same town with his girls. My ex moved FURTHER away so he could buy a house, when he could have just rented here, or saved to buy a house, or whatever.

Sorry, but I disagree that I should be forced to live in a state in which we only lived for 7 mmonths of our 7 year marriage just because he is currently stationed here. He could go to Alaska next year for all anyone knows.

HE made the choice, I am picking up the peices for my girls.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 01:51 AM
a1b2,
morom, eh? ah, the circle widens. wife is a bic...more background. I don't think wife will WANT to confess to the church, not because of the A or her moving out, but because what she perceives as "deviant sexual behavior."
Those of us on the outside (possibly yourself included) don't see sexual experimentation as a sin, but the Book of Mormon may not agree. She may feel more shame from the experimentation and toys than she does of the A. After all, the Bible is full of affairs (emotional and physical), but you don't see a lot of sex-shops referenced. I'd suggest that she get comfortable with her "past transgressions" or at least realize that they are perfectly normal for the human psyche, before she tries to assign blame and deal with other emotions. If I had known you had a BIC, all advice would have been "adjusted" to allow for a woman with her background to be able to face her family with her head held high. She needs to see that she is only human, and humans are curious by nature. If she found someone that she finally felt sexually comfortable with, that she was able to let down the defenses with, it's only natural that her hormones would drive her to try more than jsut the prescribed "missionary position." Unfortunately, Mormon only allows the H to see any variety in his sex life. (By variety, I mean: same story, different face.)

I don't think your resolved or unresolved religeous feelings will impact much in the early stages (except that you are particularly sensitive to those who are strongly "with God.:") You guys have some underlying issues that will need to be addressed for H and W to be happy in their own skin and next to each other's skin.

I find it ironic that we can see other people's issues so "clearly" (or so we think, anyway) yet we need others to validate our behavior in our own.

BTW, I'm haven't received an edited or otherwise comment about my relationship (while I'v noticed you've blasted many others). Not sure if that's because you had no opinion, or mine just didn't get you irritated enough to blast off a come-back.

Best of luck in any event. You either care a lot about your wife, or enjoy jerking folks around. In any event, your thread holds some interesting thoughts from you and all others.
Posted By: Elle_35 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 04:58 AM
Thanks, a1. Things have been going very well. I tend to be paranoid because... well... of my own history & past behavior. I excuse not myself. I know how easy it is to get carried away.

The "OW" in our case is cute, but I'm cuter...lol. I used to support myself as a model. Way, way, back in the day! Geez! Scary how young you have to be to do that stuff.

Eeenyhoo. Best to ya. Run out... get some flowers for her... go to Church together... tithe! Tithe! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And return and report. Heck--you didn't have to take the penalty oaths in that temple ceremony... lucky. But your new temple name was the exact same new name that they gave to everyone else who went through on that day... did you know that? Prolly you did, but I didn't until recently. (no, lightning will not strike my computer.) I'm going to stop blaspheming now! For a minute. Or not.

Peace out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/21/05 04:45 PM
a1,

Now that you've shared quite a bit about both of your religious backgrounds, your two different viewpoints about what you did makes perfect sense.

Being that you're a brutally honest person, this is probably an area where you need the most work. Learning how to communicate w/your W by thinking before you speak, learning how to listen to her (probably one of the biggies) & learning how to avoid those love busters (LB). There is a LB questionnaire that you both can fill out. See if she'd be willing to fill hers out & show you where you could use improvement in communication. This is extremely important. You want to communicate w/her honestly & openly, but you want to do it w/o showing outbursts of anger (AO) or disrespectful judgments (DJ). If something she says makes you angry, by all means you will get angry, that's not the point. But, it's lashing out at her (either verbally or physically) in anger that needs to be heeded. This will withdraw her love for you. Also, being you two see things differently when it comes to your relationship w/this OW, you have to be careful that you validate her feelings on the subject. Her opinions are valid, although you don't agree w/them. Trying to shove your opinion at her will only further push her away. She will feel as if your opinion is superior to hers & that she is being ridiculed for her beliefs.

I guess that's it for now. Good luck today. This is it. Check in w/us & let us know how it's going.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/22/05 09:37 PM
faithhopelove04,

You both helped the marriage fail. You both chose to get involved in a relationship with each other when you knew distance would be an issue. I don't know if I would have gotten involved with someone that was long distance with children. Sooner or later you would have had to have known that someone's kids were going to suffer because of the need to uproot them and keep them from their other parent.

Millions of fish in the sea and yet you chose one that has children that are long distance from your children. I am not blaming or trying to place guilt, I just really think you should consider what situation you have put your children in. They will now have to be without one parent in their lives (or be significantly one sided) because you chose to be with someone that is long distance or has children that are long distance.

Maybe there is more to it that I am missing.
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/22/05 09:45 PM
imanotherone,

I feel sexual experimentation is fine. That is why I encouraged it and enjoyed it with her. I introduced her to Rated 'R' movies, to porn, to hard core porn, to strip clubs, to vibrators, etc. However she was like a snowball that you roll down the hill and you later can't stop. I created an avalanche. Notice how I say I created the avalanche. If I would not have thrown the snowball down the hill none of this would have happened. How was I to know though that an avalanche would result? Had I know this would have been the outcome, I would have sufficed with missionary sex (though you exagerate; I will go along with it).

She crossed the line from healthy experimentation to out of control sexual aversion. Even Tom Leykis has limits that he says a marriage shouldn't cross. We crossed those lines. I rolled the snowball and the avalanche nearly killed the marriage (and still may).
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/22/05 10:02 PM
imanotherone,

Well in a nutshell, your husband is too hung up on looks and you don't really want to try because you are pissed at him for being so hung up on looks. Does he deserve you? In my opinion, nope. But for some reason you want to stay in the marriage so go for it.

My dad married my mom when she weighed 110 lbs. Now she ways 280lbs and he loves her just as much today (actually considerably more) than he did 28 years ago. They got married when they were 18 and 20, conceived me out of wedlock, got married because of me, and yet they are the most co-dependent, loving couple I know. Not the marriage I want, but a marriage that is quite healthy and full of love--I don't want the co-dependency.

If your husband is hung up on the looks, perhaps he is not the perfect match for you. Your task is to determine whether the marriage can work with you not looking good, if you want to look good to save the marriage, if you are okay with him getting some outside the marriage, or if you just want to call it a day and find some other guy to be with.

Keep in mind that your children will pay the highest price though.

Probably not MB principles so read fast before the post gets banned. LOL
Posted By: a1b2c3d4e5 Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/23/05 12:12 AM
So, my wife had an EA and I have had a PA (only after 1 year of legal seperation and 2,700 miles seperating us). Wife left me a year ago and moved in yesterday. She is very emotionally distant. No physical affection other than an occassional kiss (which I initiate) and even then it is barely open mouthed and quite short in duration.

She quit her job and moved all the way back from DC to SoCal. Why is she distant? I am not being distant at all. I am trying to get closer to her but honestly it feels more like a forced situation than anything. She is doing what she should but she is not feeling what she should and neither am I. Like we are going through the motions but not feeling while doing it.

Help!!!
Posted By: StandingTogether Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/23/05 12:29 AM
a1,

You have just moved back in together after a YEAR. Please give it some time. Yes, it will feel "forced" right now, but I think the BEST thing you two can do right now is spend recreational companionship (RC) w/each other. Have you printed out that inventory list, the RC list, & decided what you two enjoy together & then start doing it? This is how H & I had to "get to know each other" again. It is going to be awkward at first. You're probably going to get sick of people saying this, but it's true, you MUST give it TIME. It's only been 1 day. It didn't take you 1 day to get to the point you're at now, it's not going to take 1 day to get to where you want to be.

It was very awkward for both of us, H & I, when he moved back home. We had to kind of "force" ourselves to spend time together. We filled out the RC inventory & did those things that we were BOTH interested in & devoted the 15 hrs/wk together so we could fill each other's needs during that time. It helped tremendously. Why don't you give it a try? What have you two done together? Can you list what you both enjoy doing together? For us, we invested in a pool table & began spending a lot of our time playing pool together, just ENJOYING the company together.

You have to take baby steps - not try to chew off the entire enchilada in one week.
Posted By: shattered dreams Re: Was It Cheating? - 08/23/05 03:19 AM
LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome to Marriage Builder's philosophy 101. I've been following your posts and realized that you are trying to wing this whole "recovery" thing. It might be possible, but if you purchase and read "Surviving an Affair" it will give you a tremendous amount of insight into what you face for the next few MONTHS.

This is a tediously slow process, and it takes whatever time it takes, however, if you apply some of the Principals of Plan A, you may make fewer mistakes.

Plan A, among many other things, is making improvements in who you are, and what you bring to the marriage. Eliminating Love Busters.... Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgements, Annoying Behaviours....while at the same time making deposits in her Love Bank. Bring her flowers when she least expects it... leave her a note telling her how beautiful she is... tell her how important she is to you... but WITHOUT the "I love you's". Show her by actions how much you care for her, not by words... words are cheap and hollow. Think of it as a courtship, and turn on the charm as if you just met, and make a good impression whenever you can. Your TAKER should be put on the shelf indefinately. Your GIVER should be working overtime. And, for crying out loud, don't expect any passionate exchanges of any kind for some time!!!

As the previous poster stated, don't make every day a "relationship talk" day. Spend a fair amount of time doing things you both enjoy, things you enjoyed together when "life was good". Seek a sense of normalcy in your time together. Set aside some time for your "talks", and make those talks safe for both of you. Set some ground rules for the talks, that either of you can call a time out if it gets dicey. Regroup and start again. If you reach a point of impasse, disagree in a respectful way.

A man of your means should counsel with the Harleys. They are the best, and you can afford it. You maybe can't afford not too!

Your early posts indicated that you'd like for this to just work out. Well, I've got news for you. It won't "just" work out. You will need to WORK HARD, with absolute resolve, expecting set-backs and failures along the way, that will be most emotional. It's a roller coaster ride, at best.

Success = A very good plan, a lot of hard work, and a great deal of patience. Hunker down, man, because you are in for a eye-opening experience.

Please do yourself a favor and get the book and read it. Another fabulous book that will give you insight into what your W may be feeling is "After an Affair". It will give you a look inside her mind and give you some idea how much pain and anguish she's experiencing, and how to deal with it.

Your good looks and charm are not going to re-kindle your marriage. It's time for you to "get to work". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes,
SD
Only the original author of a post, forum moderators and forum administrators may edit that post after it has been submitted. There is now a time limit during which post authors may edit their posts.

This thread's originator cannot edit any other member's posts - please do not be concerned about this.

I noticed that the originator of this thread posted that he plans to edit his posts weekly. That is NOT appropriate for the Marriage Builders forums. If what you are posting here is going to offend or upset your spouse, then you should not post it at all.

Remember that this forum and all of the forums on this site are for purposes of Marriage Building, and we'd like to see participants familiarize themselves with and try to work with Dr. Harley's principles as provided on this web site and in his books.
Well Tempest. I am done then.
I shouldn't even be posting right now because I have other things to do, but LH told me about what happened with this thread and being curious, came to check it out myself.

You said you were done, so you may or may or may not even read this but you said to me:

"You both helped the marriage fail. You both chose to get involved in a relationship with each other when you knew distance would be an issue."

DO you even bother to read what I write before you start repsonding? What are you talking about? You make no sense. Who made what relationship fail?

You know, my XWH chose to have an affair with my best friend. He chose to abuse me emotionally, verbally and sexually. And he chose to abandon his family.

I do not believe I am entitled to pay the consequences for HIS poor choices.

The girls will always have a relationship with him. He'll just have to work harder at it.

There are other things to consider in a child's welfare than distance froma parent who doesn't care enough about them to remain in their lives on a daily basis. There is financial well-being, there is having a good male role model in their lives every day that can pick up the slack where their dad left off. There are lots of things to consider.

If I thought moving would affect them negatively, I wouldn't do it. I know my kids and I know the situation and you don't.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt through this whole mess you created on the boards. Then you come on here and tell me how wrong I am for picking up the peices of me and my children's lives in a way that rubs you wrong because you don't want your wife to be able to do it.

Thanks, a1.
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