It’s been awhile since I posted because, quite honestly, there’s not been much to report. I’ve been doing my thing while my husband has been doing his.

After a month or two of living separate lives, my husband and I are talking again. He misses me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> He wants to restore our relationship but is still expressing concern that (he thinks) I want to put him a little box and not let him live his life. I explained to him that my main concern is that we put each other and our marriage before anything else. He doesn’t want to have R talks everyday (neither do I!) and is still reluctant to attend marriage counseling. I told him that I don’t want to constantly talk about the past or the hurt but we do need to work through it. I explained that if we attend marriage counseling together we would discuss it in our sessions, we would both have the opportunity to be heard and the rest of the time we could live our life together…moving forward. I told him that recovery won’t just happen and that we need a plan. Then, I asked if he had any thoughts about how we could do this. He told me to put together a plan and we could talk about it.

Here is what I want to present to him:

[color:"blue"] So as to avoid any confusion, the following are my expectations from you in order for us to begin to recovery in our relationship.

No contact letter (email) that I approve before it is sent to OW. This is an important step to begin to restore trust.

We both agree to the Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

Sharing of all passwords, phone records, etc. with each other.

Absolute honesty.

We each fill out the following questionnaires from Marriage Builders:
Emotional needs
Love Busters
Personal History

Marriage Counseling
[/color]


Any thoughts? I’m still somewhat confused (and concerned). I know I love him very much but it’s so different now. I’m worried that my feelings for him won’t come back but I don’t want to wonder about this later in life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> For the record, he’s not once made mention of divorce in all of this. When I ask him about it he says, “If that’s what I wanted I would have done something about it by now.” That just may be babble…

Anyway, that’s where I am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi NW55,

Sounds like you've made some very positive changes in your life. Good for you. Keep up the good work.

Your plan looks good. Does it include everything that you need to feel comfortable going forward? Do you need to set any boundaries around what happens should NC fail? I'm not sure if that's an MB principle or not, but I'm sure someone here can help clarify.

I think it's great that he's not trying to take away your personal power in any of this and instead he's working with you.

I know you still have a long road ahead, but you have certainly come a long way to get here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Newlywed,

(I'm sorry - I am not very familiar with your story and I can't seem to find your previous posts with the search funciton.)

However, if this was a PA, have you seen STD results? I gave my husband similar conditions for recovery and they included STD results (hard copy or a phone call from the doctor) as well as individual counselling for him.

Blessings,

Gris

newly,

R with your terms is a R for YOU. I am of the very firm belief for any R to last(other than for the WS to make it look like they are "trying"), the terms need to be laid out by the truly repentant WS. Now that doesn't mean that you can't disagree or ask for modifications that you can not live with. And most of all NEVER compromise the NC rule.

If the BS takes the bull by the horns and runs with fixing their M, they almost always get gored by the mostly prideful and vacillating WS.

Look through these boards and see if you can find even one instance where the BS tried to mend the M and it turned into a true recovery. I would hazard to guess the percentage is in the very high 90"s slanted toward another D Day.

Does anyone want to EVER go through another D Day?

Thanks STWP. I have come a long way, but H is spinning in circles. He claims that he goes out so much (and has a lot of female friends…just friends. (?)) because he’s lonely and has no one to talk to. I said, “Why don’t you call me?” He says that I won’t talk to him or see him. When has he tried?

Anyway, we talked through that and for the last few days he has seemed pretty sincere…calling me everyday, wanting to see me. I’m still being careful.

Yes, Gris, you are right. I did think about an STD test. I will add it to my terms. Thank you!

Cymanca, Thank you for telling me what I need to hear (and have been thinking in the back of my mind). Though he does seem sincere, he is not taking the initiative that I had hoped he would in this matter. He’s not done much pursuing of me…only emails and text messages here and there, but much more frequently lately…and I’ve allowed that to open the doors a little between us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I asked him before why he hasn’t pursued me more and he said that he didn’t know what I wanted him to do. I reminded him of how he acted when we first met. And then I reminded him that he had no problems pursuing the OW and finding ways to see her even though she lives 6 hours away.

Oh, yeah. He did tell me in the midst of the whole A, plan A, plan B thing that he would never come after me. And when I asked ‘why’ he said that if it were the other way around he’d be gone and wouldn’t look back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So, though I think there is a possibility for us to recover, I am still scared of another D-day and would feel much more assured if he were to take more initiative.

Should I give him the terms and then back off for awhile and wait for him to set things in motion?

Quote: Should I give him the terms and then back off for awhile and wait for him to set things in motion.

Yes, only if you have not told him the way you feel one hundred times before. Otherwise it is like telling the naughty child ....don't do that or I will be mad.....really mad.....no I mean really mad....don't you dare.....if I come over there.....etc.

Silence can be deafening

Do you know what you will do if he does not do these things?

I made the mistake of letting my WH back several times without a plan. Sure, there was NC established (and then broken) and he got dragged to marriage counselling. But there wasn't much impetus to make permanent changes since there weren't any (or any major) consequences for not doing so.

Forgive me, but your husband sounds like my WH - wants to be married again, but when asked what his plan for recovery is, says, "huh?" One of the main reasons for our false recoveries (sigh - yes, that's plural) was because he thought he had done his part simply by ending the affair and it was my job to ensure that he felt that coming home was worth it.

Our real recovery only began after I filed for divorce. Then, he came to me and asked me what I wanted. I told him I would put the divorce on hold if and only if certain conditions were met. He knew that if he didn't step up this time, that I was done.

If you know your boundaries and you sense he truly desires recovery, then do as Cymanca suggests. His response to you will be an indication of his sincerity.

Best wishes,

Gris

I called H before sending him my terms. I explained to him that I need to see initiative from him in working towards recovery in order to know that he really wants this too... that we both need to be all in. He said, “Ok. Send me the email.” He said he would call after he’s had a chance to consider it.

So, I may never hear from him.
Or, he may call and say that he can’t do it.
Or, I may not hear from him until he’s started on the list.
Or, he may call and say bring those questionnaires over!

Regardless, I’m going to be okay. I sincerely mean this. I’m not just trying to convince myself. I know that I’m already okay.

I told him that this is the last time that I’m sticking my heart out there. I can’t keep hoping that he’s going to decide that this is what he wants.

So now it’s wait and see. But not really waiting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Cymanca - Thank you for your response. The terms have been sent. I will not contact him first. I will wait for him to agree to everything.

Gris -
"he thought he had done his part simply by ending the affair and it was my job to ensure that he felt that coming home was worth it."

Wow...well put. This is the feeling that I'm getting from him. I'm going to see if I can find some of your other posts...I am sensing lots of similarities.

I will file for divorce he does not come through in a fairly quick manner. The whole filing thing kinda scares me but I know that I owe it to myself to do this if he won't come through. Perhaps he thinks I'm bluffing...well, let him call me on it!

Hi NW,

(There may not be many posts to find - this is my first time posting again since the boards changed.)

My heart goes out to you because I know what it's like to want your life/marriage/partner back and to not know if what you think is being promised by that person is real. You're right - you cannot know or control his response. You are also right when you say that you will be okay, regardless of the outcome.

If you choose to divorce, that is up to you. But please make sure that you are divorcing because that is what you want, not because you want to scare him into responding positively to you.

I've read several times here that you KNOW when you're in recovery. It's true. (Kinda like labour - if you have to ask if it's a contraction, then it's probably not.)

Wishing you the very best.

Cymanca--

"I am of the very firm belief for any R to last(other than for the WS to make it look like they are "trying"), the terms need to be laid out by the truly repentant WS. Now that doesn't mean that you can't disagree or ask for modifications that you can not live with. And most of all NEVER compromise the NC rule.

If the BS takes the bull by the horns and runs with fixing their M, they almost always get gored by the mostly prideful and vacillating WS."

I had a repentful WS, who was willing to meet my conditions, MC, std testing, nc forever. Of course, I will always know that this is not guarantee, but I'm fairly sure there's been nc for over 10 months.

I'm confused by your statement. Are you saying a repentant WS can't accept terms? That they must be the one's setting up the terms for recoery? Thanks for clarifying.

I didn't hear from H yesterday after I emailed my terms to him. Around 9 I stopped by his place on my way home. I asked him if he had a chance to look it over and asked him what he thought. He told me that everything on the list is all about me and doesn’t take him into consideration. What??? He also said that all I want to do is dwell on the past.

I told him that what was done is done and it is in the past. I’m thinking about our future and these are the things that we need to do to ensure our future happiness so that this doesn’t happen again. It seemed to get through to him. Then he admitted to me that sometimes he doesn’t want to be married and sometimes he does. The frequency of either depends on the day…he can’t say that one is winning over the other. I told him that he needs to make a decision soon about which one he is going to let win. I also let him know that regardless of what he decides I’m going to fine, even happy with my life. I just want him to be honest with me…I do not want him feeling forced into a situation or trapped because he is afraid of hurting my feelings.

So we talked for a little while about that and chatted a few minutes about lighter things. At one point he held my hand and looked into my eyes and for a minute I saw the man that I haven’t seen in 6 months. He also gave me a hug that came from the guy I used to know. It felt like the old him…

We’re supposed to go to a concert together this weekend... tickets we bought a long time ago. So perhaps things will be civil until then and then the truth will come out. Or, maybe it will come out before then. I can definitely go either way with this relationship as long as he is straight with me. I guess I’m hoping to be able to have respect for him when all is said and done. I think that's possible...?

Viv,

After rereading my post I guess I was a little muddy in the point I was trying to get across.

To clarify; The WS should be given the burden of drawing up the terms of the reconciliation while the BS oversees BUT DOES NOT SET THE PARAMETERS. All of those need to come from the WS.

For example the BS says "I am not happy that the agreement does not include a method for complete honesty, Ms. WW what can we do to ensure that parameter". The rules come from the WS not the other way around. A truly repentant WS will go out of his/her way to make things right.

To paraphrase Coach: You were smart enough to devise and hide this A, you d*mn well better be smart enough to fashion the repair process.

My belief is that terms laid out by the BS can be very easily disavowed by the recidivist WS as " I didn't want to do that, you wanted us to do that"

Hope that is clearer, if not I will give it one more try.

Heard from H this morning...business about paying a bill. Other than that...nothing.

I know that I need to just leave him alone and let him come around if that's what is going to happen. I do so well when I'm not in contact with him. I'm trying so hard not to call him.

Please distract me....ugh!

I don't understand why I'm letting myself get so caught up in this. I do so well and then he shows a little bit of hope and I'm sucked right back in. Aaaargh!

I honestly believe that the best thing for our marriage is divorce. We were never meant to be together. We are so different. We've never been able to truly communicate with each other. Though a generous person, he's also very selfish. He will only do if it is something positive for him. I really need someone to talk to.

Just re-read this. Boy do I sound pathetic. I wouldn't want to be around me either.

Question:

He has my terms. He's considering things. He's says that all he can see right now is me upset. Yes, I have been LBing. The affair is over but I know there is still a limited amount of occassional contact. He is trying to get things straight in his head. He wants our M but is unsure of himself. I get the impression that he may be willing to agree to my terms.

Do I plan A for awhile? He wants us to hang out and spend quality time together. Or should I wait for him to find me?

newlywed,
I know exactly what you are feeling. My WH is doing the same thing except we are still living in the same house. I believe the A is over and there is NC. At this point I think he would rather just forget it ever happened never speak of it again and move on. Which is our problem...he and I are conflict avoiders. Even if the A is over thats not enough for me...I want to address the problems that led there and I want him to take responsibility for what he did.

I told him if he wanted to stay he would have to maintain NC and we would have to go to MC. He agrees but has done nothing about it so far.

I say sit tight let him make the move or back to plan B then maybe D if that is what you want. But I am no expert. Don't settle for less, don't settle for crumbs.

NW: I'm sorry you find yourself here. Even though you are both different, you married for a reason. I hope you find each other again. Is anything new happening? I'm thinking of you?

Cymanca: I guess I'm one of the few who did set up most of the recovery boundries. I didn't do it right after d-day. But after a few weeks, and him showing remorse and agreeing to go to a MC appointment, I did say, hey, we need to keep going, you need nc, which he already knew through counseling, std tests. Our marriage is much better now than it has been in quite a while.

Thank you Viv.

Yesterday was a mess. We spoke on the phone and then things turned toward R talk...which makes him edgy. At one point he had had enough and then hung up on me. I can't stand when he does that, so of course I called him back...25 times...he wouldn't answer. Yeah, I freaked out. I thought that for sure that was the end of his willingness to R.

Well last night H and I watched football together at his place. Just hung out, light chatting, comfortable. Tomorrow night we have plans to go to a concert. He's working all weekend but I think he wants to see me when he can.

I have had a really rough week...lots of LBing, crying, 'freak outs'. Yet, he's been patient with me (more or less) while reminding me that this is not helping our situation. We are having real conversations on the phone...he's sharing some of the pain he's going through and I feel that he is really hearing me.

I need to chill out...plan A. He knows that I am unyielding with my terms and is trying to figure out how he feels about them. He thinks they are all about making me happy. He's never been comfortable with the idea of counseling in any form. He does not want to rehash the past.

I continue to remind him that the terms are not about the past but about a healthy future. They are meant to secure happiness for both of us as individuals together in a marriage.

So anyway...a lot of rambling here. But I told H that I acknowledge his patience during my moments and his efforts to communicate with me.

I must repeat..."I will not freak out. I will not freak out. I will not...."

Confused - Thank you. I definitely don't want just his crumbs...I want the whole pie!

I think he would be thrilled if I was willing to forget about the past and just start over from the now. But I think he knows by now that that is NOT going to happen.

It is tough when they agree (with words) and then show no action. Show me the actions!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Good to hear from you again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H and I spent a lot of time together this weekend. Friday evening on my way home from work I stopped by his place. He has often complained that I don't acknowledge the progress (albeit small most of the time) that he does. So I thanked him for being patient with me when I 'freak out'. I acknowledged his 'trying'.

I tried to let go of the 'terms' while we spent a little time together. 1) To remind him how much fun we always have together and 2) To give it all a chance to sink in so he can be comfortable with it all. Saturday night we went to a concert and Sunday night we sat on the sofa and watched TV. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Like old times.

Last night we went to a movie and when we got back to his place we watched a little TV and then I asked the question. It has been a week since I emailed them the list of terms. I wanted to know what he has decided/thought about it all.

His thoughts:

- He doesn't think that the NC letter is necessary at this point. It has been some time since there has been any real communication between him and OW. I have seen the occassional (missed) call from her on his phone but I'm getting a good feeling about this actually being over.

- He is not refusing MC but he is not agreeing to MC. He still doesn't see how it will help.

- Why exchange passwords? He doesn't want to read my email and he's not hiding anything. I explained that it is about opening our lives to each other. I also told him that I have no intention of being with somebody if I think I have to waste the rest of my life snooping and following them around.


I decided that I would not initiate contact between us and let him 'pursue'. He just sent me a text message asking me if I'd like to go camping with him this weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, comments? advice?

Bluntly, it sounds like he still has no desire to meet any of your requirements. He's come up with reasons not to do any of them...what does that tell you?

Thanks Owl.

I know and I’m not trying to make excuses, but the only thing he is refusing is the NC letter. Is that really necessary when time has passed and I feel pretty confident as far as that is concerned?

I’m adhering to my boundaries but is it okay for us to be friendly for the time being? If he hasn’t agreed and things aren’t in motion by next Monday (2 weeks after terms sent) then I am going dark again.

I’m just cautious because I don’t want him to think that I’m ignoring his efforts. I’m really starting to see my H and not my WH again.

H went out to his favorite hangout last night...did some thinking and drinking, sent me text messages. I ended up at his place to talk pretty late last night.

He told me that he wants me to bring the questionnaires over today and that he is willing to try counseling. He wants to fix things.

He received a text message around 12:30 a.m. I don't know what came over me but I had to know who would be sending him texts at that hour. He got mad at me and really worked up and told me that if I look at his phone then I should just forget about it and get out...he was tired of my snooping.

I asked him if he really meant that and he said no.

Then he said, "I don't care, do whatever you want. But if you leave don't ever come back."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Okay...so I stuck around and stayed up thinking while I let him sleep. I also looked at his phone...it was a friend responding to a greeting he had sent earlier in the night.

He was gone when I woke up this morning. He sent me more texts addressing what happened last night. He's still into taking steps to figure 'us' out.

Everything is progressing nicely. H has agreed to all terms except for the NC letter. He flat out refuses. He says he is not in contact...that he is done with that. It has been some time since contact...a couple of months. I know OW has attempted contact with him once or twice via phone and he with her once or twice...but not in the last two weeks. I feel pretty confident on this issue.

Is the NC letter an absolote necessity? Is this worth my making an issue about if I have a good feeling about his not being in contact with her?

Newlywed,
I am no expert but be cautious. Refusing the NC letter is an indicator he is not ready to commit to M. My WH has yet to do his NC letter "Its silly". That response sends the message to me that he is not ready to close that door yet and he is more concerned about OW feelings then my feelings.
Be cautious...I don't think you are in recovery yet, it sounds like he is throwing crumbs to keep you on the string while he sits on the fence. Thats my .02 worth because I see similar behaviors from my WH

Confused - Yes, he thinks it's silly and unnecessary.

We've made a lot of progress...spending time together making deposits... He's opening up and talking to me. He's willing to do the other things. How do I convince him that this is important?

You're asking the wrong question. The question you need to ask is how do you convince yourself that this is important. Until you are convinced that you need the NC letter before you even consider taking this faithless man back into your life, he will know he can make excuses and make you doubt yourself. The NC letter is not going to be more important to him than it is to you. If you convince yourself that the NC letter is important, it will be easy for you to say, honey I love you and want to restore our marriage-when you are ready to send a NC letter, give me a call and we'll get started.

Make it clear to him that while he may feel that the letter is 'silly and unnecassary' to him, it's not to you. That it is a step he can take to reassure YOU that he's doing all the right things to fix your marriage. Even if he feels it's a waste of time, it won't be in your eyes. It will be a big deposit in your LB if he does so. But NOT doing so still makes you feel like he might be holding that door open for in the future...what you want to see him do is take some DEFINITIVE ACTION in burning the bridge between him and OW. You need to see that part of your lives ENDED once and for all, and that it will help YOU to move forward in recovery...even if he thinks that it wouldn't matter since NC is already in place.

And make it clear to him what you're looking for in the NC letter, and clear that you want to be copied on it and see it before it is sent to make sure that it says what you BOTH want to see in it.

Newlywed55,

Just as their can be no progress from MC when an active A is in force, there can be no R if a balking WS refuses the NC letter.

It is not the "silly" letter's refusal that should have you worried , it is the obvious subterfuge that you "see" from your lying husband during this time.

If it was truly " silly", he then should have absolutely NO reason to refuse.

Assume the best, prepare for the worst.

Good luck, you are in my prayers

Thank you all for your responses. It sounds like I need to stick to my guns and expect that he write a NC letter. I will continue to let him know this.

It’s tough though because I don’t want to sound like a nag. I wish I could just say, “Call me when you’ve written it.” However, I’ve been staying at his place the last week or so (Our old place…I moved out.) because I can no longer stay where I was. I’m not really in a position to be able to afford an apartment of my own and since things between us have become much better the last few weeks, I’ve kinda ended up back there. I was considering staying at one of those weekly-stay hotels but I don’t want to make things worse by going back, leaving again, going back, leaving again….like I did after D-day and before I discovered MB.