sometimes i can deal with it, sometimes i just can't.

i don't believe there really is anything different that i can do to help the situation. i think for the most part he is happy who i am now. but who i am now does not change the past and he does not know how to get past that. he cannot see how any marriage could get past this.

this is from our conversation last night: the way he sees it, i have cheated on him 60-70 times, by that he means this is the amount of times i was physically with another person. he has asked me many times for the number of specific times i was with another person in any way and this is the number he ends up with. 12 of them are with one person while we were engaged, 3 was from the co-worker back in 1991. the rest was post july 2001.

he realizes he can look at this in 3 seperate pieces or as our entire marraige has been full of infidelity. he chooses to look at it the latter way. and with that view, he just does not see any reason to conclude anything other than we have no marriage, and yet he does not want to divorce....

i've been looking at wedding bands, i want to get him a new one and i was kinda hoping he would accept it by our anniversary. after our talk last night i'm going to have to accept that i cannot do that at this time. he told me before, buying him a new one will only put pressure on him to wear it, and i don't want to put pressure on him. i was just kinda hoping he would be wanting to wear a ring again at some point and i was kinda hoping we were getting closer to that point but we just are not.

are there other FWSs in my situation? how do you cope on days that are harder?

He's still there by his own free will .... same as you.

2 people struggling.

Which one can you control?

only me.

but that does not mean it does not hurt!!

FL, I am very sorry you're having a rough time. I am not in your position but wanted to tell you what an inspiration you have been to me during my time here. I used to look at your situation as well as JenBrown's and think, boy I wish my W was half this remorseful. You have done everything you can. Now maybe a little more time is needed. From your H's point of view I would agree that he doesn't need to feel pressured. Honestly the ring will mean a lot more to you when its HIS idea to pursue it. That day will come.

Just keep being the best person you can be and leave the rest to God.

WOE (WalkingOnEggs)

His forgiving will come when he is ready.

Did you know you can choose to live well in the meantime ? KEWL

Everyday you can open your eyes and decide that whatever good things are put before you ... you will partake and enjoy.

Everyday you can decide to welcome new challenges as opportunities for growing into someone stronger and more resilient.

Frankly, if all were a bed of roses for you right now ... you would miss some opportunities to get bigger inside. You might be lazier when it comes to owning your own feelings.

you are doing just GREAT !

I remember you when .... you were not as self loving.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Happy for you and how far you've come.

Glass half empty or half full type of girl ?

hi woe, thank you for your kind words. i know having patience is key and i 100% agree with you about the ring. i don't want him to feel any pressure and i certainly DON"T want him wearing it just to "make me happy". the thing is, i don't want him to wear his ring, i want him to want to wear his ring. he does not know i have been shopping and i will not tell him.

i know these feelings cannot kill me, but they really really s*ck!!! my heart physically hurts today. i took my bike into work today, i take it on the train and then ride the 2.5 miles from the station to work. i'm debating riding all the way home today (about 20 miles!). i'm using map quest to find a safe route. if i cannot go all the way home on my bike, i can at least increase the 2.5 mile bike ride by going to a farther away station.

i know i need to console myself right now, i'm trying but i fear as soon as i get home i'm going to burst into tears and that is just not acceptable. but not going home is not very acceptable either...

ya know, part of me really believe that is a true stmt. in fact more of me belives it will happen than not. but today, i can take any comfort in that idea.

each day that goes by cannot be taken back. know what i mean?

i guess i just have to accept today is: if i can survive today, if i can go home with a smile on my face and enjoy the evening with my family even with this sadness in my heart, i will have accomplished something i was not able to accomplish before.

i don't quite share your enthusiasm right now though pep. guess i'm being a glass half empty right now.

in fact, the truth is, you are reminding me of a friend i spoke with on the phone at the hospital the day my second D was born (the one born pre-mature that died). her and her H was enthusiastically congratulating me on the birth our our daugther, even though she was fighting for her life. and i wanted to be able to express the fear and sadness i was feeling. at the time of the call, she had already been moved to a different hospital, one with very good neo-natal care (the best really, Loyola). and my H was with her and i was still at the hospital where she was born. i didn't understand their reaction. joyfully congratulating us??? less than 5 hrs later she died.

isn't it ok to sometimes not be full of joy and grateful to be alive???

ok, that actually does sound like a stupid question but seriously, i just cannot have a glass half full attitude all the time pep. maybe i should be able to, i really don't know. but i'm very sad right now and fighting off the urge to be mad. i have no energy left for a smile.

FL-T2M.

I hummed and ahhed about posting this but I decided its right that you get to see your H as not being aberrant or unreasonable.

I also feel Squid betrayed me once every time she screwed OM.
I can completely understand your H feeling like he you say he does. The magnitude and repeat nature of the betrayals must overwhelm him when he considers them. He has been second in your consideration SO MANY Times its no wonder he may wonder if its real this time, that you have truly chosen him, not settled for him.

Your betrayal wasn't an aberration, FL, it appears to have been a lifestyle choice.

I feel your H is hanging onto 'being married' by instinct and by his fingernails. I feel for him.

You have a hard job FL. So does he.

Have you counselled with the Harleys? I think REAL expertise is called for.

* edited to ask FL - if it were ME I 'd need to know WHY in some consodered detail. WHY you felt the need to be so repeatedly unfaithful. Why I was beneath your consideration so many times.

You can answer that honestly it may help your H rediscover his self worth.

All blessings.

FLT2M, I think a gift that shows him you want to understand him, or shows you look at him with eyes of compassion (I didn't say pity), would be better.

Glad you posted this. You usually hide 'em in other people's threads. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

GC

bob, i wanted to let you know i saw this and i would like to respond in detail but cannot until tommorow, i don't want to delay my departure for home. you obviously relate to what he is feeling/thinking.

and yet you have forgiven squid, isn't it understandable for me to say, how come i can't be forgiven???

and the other part big part of it is, all that occured from 1991 - 1993 was not the behavior of a healthy person, how can he not see that?? shouldn't that help him know it was more about me self-destructing than me rejecting him?? he acts like i was just having a grand old time when he knows for a FACT that is not true. i completely fell apart in april of 2001 when my dad died, had to take off a month from work for "mental health" treatment. i was not any healtier when i was thrown back to work, and he was of no help at that point either. and so i went spirallying back down, but this time instead of wanting to kill myself, i decided to kill the marriage instead.

ok, i said i would not respond to it now cuz i don't want to be late!! besides i am starting to feel worked up now.

but i would like to try to continue this tommorow.

hi gc, i will definitely not be getting him a ring. i realize it is not what would be good for him. historically we have never gotten each other gifts anyway.

FL

I don't know how I could forgive Squid and your H evidently is struggling to forgive you. Forgiveness is not a logical deduction IME but a compulsion when conditions are right.

Squid had one affair at a crisis time of her life, and screwed OM less than ten times. Maybe only twice if I believe OM ( I don't). One OM, over a period of two months.

She claims life overwhelmed her when she comments now.

She could not claim that for 70 liasons over the duration of our marriage.

I had to forgive terrible wifehood and a single affair with a few consummations. That was/is hard enough.

Your H has to forgive an entirely different se of insults.

If he knows he was not the help to you that you needed during your crisis, perhaps he also has guilt and attibution issues to deal with ?

all that occured from 1991 - 1993 was not the behavior of a healthy person, how can he not see that??

How can he know that your behaviours were because you were unhealthy rather than because you rejected his husbandry?

How can he possibly know that? It may just look like like lots of affairs to him.

but this time instead of wanting to kill myself, i decided to kill the marriage instead.

A divorce would have sent that message. Lots of affairs just sends a message that your H isn't cutting it IMO.

Men are defined at a primal level by our ability to provide for our families, procreate and keep our woman happy. It hurts us on a VISCERAL level when any of those are threatened.

Squid almost killed me with 1X10 insult. I can only imagine how your H feels.

I don;t want this to be negative, FL, I just wanted to point out that I don't think youe H is behaving irrationally. I would feel the same.

Its a horrible sit, FL. I pray you move forward together.

Hi, FL.

Quote:
==========================================
and the other part big part of it is, all that occured from 1991 - 1993 was not the behavior of a healthy person, how can he not see that?? shouldn't that help him know it was more about me self-destructing than me rejecting him?? he acts like i was just having a grand old time when he knows for a FACT that is not true. i completely fell apart in april of 2001 when my dad died, had to take off a month from work for "mental health" treatment. i was not any healtier when i was thrown back to work, and he was of no help at that point either. and so i went spirallying back down, but this time instead of wanting to kill myself, i decided to kill the marriage instead.
==========================================

I can understand that you want your husband to understand 'where you where' during the infidelities. The real issue, however, is one of responsibility.

In my life, FL, I finally learned to take responsibility for my actions and how they affected others - all my actions.

Your mental state at the time you did something may be a contributing factor, but it was YOU that took the action, you can't blame anyone or any circumstance for choices that you made.

I have many more 'liaisons' under my belt than you, and I have a marriage of almost 30 years now. Everything I did, I did. Regardless of the reasons at the time, or my state of mind or lack of it, I did all those things. I can't take them back. I can't fix the broken lives I left behind. What I can do, is to squarely face all of it head on, and take responsibility for it.

I think that as your husband sees you take responsibility for your actions, all of it, that he may find an easier place from which he can build trust with you.

I believe that you have turned away from your past mistakes. You do need to understand why you did what you did, but most importantly, you need to own your own actions. They are yours, and nobody's fault but yours.

I love a line from a Nina Simone song. "If I die and my soul be lost, well it's nobody's fault but mine."

God bless,
Gimble

Dear FL,
(((FL)))
I do understand where you are. I don't think H has forgiven me either. Sometimes I dwell on it, wonder why he can't, convince myself I deserve to be, get self-righteous and self-pitying....

Actually none of that is useful. I have a really good life most of the time. I am using my time, working on myself, growing, learning, enjoying myself....Whenever I focus too much on him I know its time to stop. I can't change him.

The other week, H and I were having an A discussion. I was telling him some of the things I had discovered about myself, the ways that I had changed. He listened, and said he can see the changes in me. He prefers the 'new' me to the old 'me'. Our R is better now in lots of ways than it used to be.

Then we moved on to talking about him. He said that for him, there has been no positive benefit of the A. For him the whole experience has meant only pain. He thinks that he has not grown or developed. He has difficulty feeling love.

It was a sobering moment.

There is still some way to go before H can heal. I have to face the possibility that he may never forgive me. What do I do then? I always have the choice. I don't have to live forever without being fully accepted and having my needs met.

I see signs of progress in that it is easier to talk about the A now. Even though it is still painful for both of us to talk about the A, we recover quicker after the discussion and can go on to do other, fun things with the day, as opposed to getting stuck in horrible guilt or pain for hours. We do a lot of 'fun' things - as often as we can.

I am hopeful. I hope you are too!

But Bob, it was NOT 70 over the duration of our marriage!!!!! that seems so unfair to say, that is putting it under the worst light. It was 3 with one OM over the course of 15 years of marriage!!! And it was 12 (i'm not really sure that is right but i guess that is now the number that will as good as fact in H's eyes now) while engaged. and it is very unfair of me to try to discount that due to the fact that we were not yet married. I can conceed that.

but then i reformed for a very long time. and i wanted to go to MC back then, H would not. maybe i would of come clean back then. i suppose that does not matter cuz the bottom line is i did not. instead i sweeped it under the rug. and then we got pregnant with our D and then i totally buried it.

ok, so if i look deep, i'm not fully owning my actions. i'm probably only at 85%. but i'll never agree to the stmt that i cheated on him 70 times over the course of our marriage. that is just not an accurate representation of the facts.

smur, you hit the nail on the head so perfectly. i am trying to say i deserve his forgiveness, i am being self-rightous and even having a bit of self-pity here.

so when you find yourself in the spot i am now you say you know it is time to stop. what exactly do you do to get yourself to stop. i really am trying to stop. i swear i am. but i hurt so much right now. i don't know how to stop that. i rode my bike the majority of the way home, it had to be at least 10 miles, maybe even more. i expect i will sleep good tonight. and i got my haircut and ate very good today. i even did the exercise that i was given for my back as well as some sit ups.

i'm trying to do good things to take care of myself.

but you guys are trying to force me to have my eyes open too much. that 15% i talked about up there, allows me to not hate myself. without it, well how can i not end up concluding exactly as my H is?? he should not forgive me. i was so horrible.

it is very true. I hated him back in 2001, I hated him and i was in so much pain and i hated him for not helping me not be in pain. and i hated him for not easily going along with my desire to divorce. he made it so much harder on me. of course now i am grateful beyone words, but then i totally hated him. why should he believe that might not happen again.

i have to figure, it is fear that if he forgives and then trusts me again, i will hurt him again. and who could blame him for that.

and all i am doing is spinning in circles again right now.

what do i do???? i just don't know what to do. i see how much pain he has, i see his pain and i want to make it go away, so i figure helping him understand it was not all about him, me rejecting him. i was just so messed up. i hurt so bad cuz of my dad, but my dad was dead. i hurt so bad cuz of not understanding how what occured when i was younger impacted me. i hurt so bad because the hole in my heart was gaping and raw and i turned on my H instead.

how can i possible make it up to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

well crying certainly wont' do it so i am going to give him a back rub instead.

thank you to all who posted to me.

FL, what can I say, but, soldier on. Every day, you swallow consequences and fight for redemption. See if you can't find a way for that to be your source of happiness.

GC

FL - on a positive note - you're post has given me hope.

Two nights ago WW told me "THIS MARRIAGE WILL NEVER WORK!"

She does not know that it is a line from her sript.

But it might not.

But yours is moving forward. You hated him, but now you want him to forgive and love you.

You have given a hopeless man hope tonite. Sounds like maybe a couple of hopeless men.

Thank you.

I will pray for you tonight.

Soldier on. If he ain't walking, then he sees hope. And that means it can survive.

far

but i'll never agree to the stmt that i cheated on him 70 times over the course of our marriage. that is just not an accurate representation of the facts.

Facts are facts. Inarguable. You want to say you took a gun to your H only a few times while he wants to count every bullet.

Is that so surprising ?

FL, I thnk Smur & Gimble are right - you simply must take responsibility for your actions. ALL of them. Take ownership of your affairs.

Search for that thread by KYEllow from a while back that talk about taking ownership of your affair and how liberating it can be.

Only then perhaps can your H start to take ownership of HIS contributions to manuring the soil of your relationship to ready it for affairs.

** And Smur, I agree with yoru H. Not one thing has come out of this affair experience positive for e thatin any way mitigates the existential pain and suffering and lifelong hurt.

Like Hemidart said once


Nothing is worth the pain to a BS like me. NOTHING.

Hello again,
The pain can be very bad, I know about that. You said:



So I thikn you do know about takign care of yourself. Good for you!!

There is something I have been thinking a little bit about lately. If I am havign trouble keeping the focus away from how H 'should' be, and then I get into the 'poor me' type thinking, I think about this.

I try to remember when I was single (and I don't mean looking for a mate!!, just remembering how I acted when I was truly single). At that time, if I was hurt or upset, or I had a big problem, I had to look after myself. I sought comfort from friends, talked to counsellors or others who understood, and trusted that I could look after myself and would get better. I remember those times, and to be honest I can't say that when I was single I was in pain much more often than after I met H. I don't know how it was for you?

Now, I imagine that H is a much respected, cared for and welcome friend who shares my home. Someone whose company I greatly enjoy. Someone who is staying long-term, and so has responsibilities too. I try to interact with him with this in mind - opening up and sharing myself and my life with him as I would to a good friend, enquiring after him and how he is, treating him generally with great consideration, trying to resolve problems and differences quickly and fairly, asking for what I need (ie ENs!), and being understanding if he can't provide it at that time for some reason.

If I think of things in this way, I find that I have fewer expectations of how he 'should' be acting towards me, whether he 'should' be dealing with things differently, and just generally who and how he 'should' be. Then I feel less self-pity. I can find a much better way to live and let live, while still being myself and still getting my needs met as much as possible.

About accepting responsibility... I agree with Bob etc. I think when you quibble about details, its more than likely that all he hears is " it wasn't really that bad, its not really my fault, you have no reason to hurt so much..."

The fact is, he is very, very hurt. You caused that. (just as I did!).

Both you and I caused enormous damage. It doesn't mean that we intended to. It doesn't mean that we were in our right minds at the time. It doesn't mean that we weren't hurt ourselves for other reasons.
All of that is irrelevant. Our Hs are very, very hurt and we need to face that.

The 'number of betrayals' thing? Well, if I worked on that basis I'd be in a hospital bed, staring into space...

My H developed an addiction to prostitutes, shortly into the marriage. Ten years in, he started 'the emotional stuff'. He went through four PAs, but was still hooked on prostitutes, had call-girls to his room on business trips, etc.

Fifteen years of prostitute addiction, seven years of affairs. How many times has my H ejaculated into a woman who wasn't his wife over the years? I think it must be numbered in the thousands. Thousands of times when he's taken his clothes off and performed the act of intimacy with some other woman.

If I think about this too long, my head starts to explode.

To me, each one of those ejaculations was a decision he made. Each one of those was a separate, unique betrayal.

But to him, it's not quite like that. To him, there was a flawed decision-making mechanism, and each 'decision' was essentially the same one. Having developed a warped process in the first place, all acts of infidelity were essentially the same one, repeated over and over.

To him, it's like taking one wrong turning, and driving on and on for miles under the impression you're on the right road.

I DO see that each betrayal - each mile further down the wrong road, stubbornly refusing to admit this is not the right road - reduces the ability to use the conscience as a guide. I think that the conscience disengages pretty quickly after the first act of betrayal, so that the insult to the betrayed spouse registers less and less. All human beings have the capacity to desensitise themselves to horror; that's why people manage to work in abattoirs and animal-research labs and concentration camps, and don't go insane.

To know that your spouse can desensitise themselves to your pain is not comforting. But it does at least reduce the sense of the enormity of the betrayal.

Smur, this is one of the wisest posts I have read. I wish I had this sort of knowledge long, long ago. This is exactly how I should have treated me H over the years but instead I focused so, so long the "he shoulds". I actually called him this morning and read it to him over the phone. I hope your H knows what a repentant, wise, loving W you are.

FL, hope you are doing better today.

FL,

I know how you feel. I'm almost in the same situation, however my S doesn't have it in her to stay with me.

I am the FWH. I have great remorse for what I've done. Ten years ago I had the A with a classmate in university while my W and were dating and she was pregnant with our first child. She found out about the A way back then but I didn't tell her the whole truth until 4 months ago. We've been separated ever since.

I envy you that you at least are with your S. Please, please, please, count that blessing. You can at least work on things.

I hope all turns out for the best and that the grief you feel will one day be a thing of the past.

I think TA makes an excellent point; "that each betrayal - each mile further down the wrong the road, stubbornly refusing to admit this is not the right road - reduces the ability to use conscience as a guide".

I am going to make an analogy that may get lost in translation but I'm so thankful that my W only counted the number of times I held a gun to her head and not the number of bullets. For the first 9 years of our M we lived in an apartment because I turned my paycheck over to a bookie on a weekly basis. She only became aware of my addiction on "d-day". After I was "cured" there was a second "d-day" about 18 months later. While that was many years ago she will only mention that I betrayed her not once but twice. This is certainly more palatable then her citing the thousands and thousands of dollars involved or how many times I met the bookie behind her back etc.

I suppose I just want to remind everyone that there are different ways of keeping score. And I would suggest that the scorekeeper demonstrate a little more empathy.

There but for the grace of God, go I.

WOE

i just wanted to say hi and acknowlegde all the posts. i do feel very blessed.

i'm trying to let go of that last 15% and get to 100%.

you all have given me great things to think about.

i'm letting work distract me enough to not post a lot more but i will.

Thinking of you, FL

some of this has been really hard to read. hence i've been slow to respond fully.

i don't want the difficutly to stop me from growing

and i don't mean to quibble, i'm glad to have you all here to discuss this instead of my H. i certainly don't want to sound like i am minimizing anything.

i just don't see how the stmt "70 times over the course of our marriage" is fair.

yes, it is true, but it is also true to say i was 100% faithful for the majority of our marriage. since the infidelity occured for a short time in 1991 and then all the rest in 2001-2003.

but then i read up on CambridgeMan story....

CambridgeMan, thank you for your post and i am so very sorry for your situation. i read all your posts, i wish there was something i could say to help.

reading your story makes me have to face how i've lied to him for the entire marriage, since the first thing occured while engaged. and quibbling about how to word the rest of it suddenly becomes even more meaningless.

in the end, the best thing for me personally is to focus on who i am today. but where does that leave my H?? i certainly cannot say anything like "but i have come clean now and i'm no longer doing any of that stuff"

that seems worse than trying to get him to see the perspective of i was 100% faithful for many many years.

and 2001 really was part of a serious break down.

ugh, i'm about to start spinning in circles again!!

if me letting go of that little bit comfort that i get to have when i view the facts in a more favorable view (which really is a joke anyway) will help... then i'm just going to have to figure out a way to do that.

i do recall the post by kyellow. i will look it up.

and FAR, since i am finally getting some words out.... i'm really glad my post gave you hope. it is true, i really did want to divorce, big time!! back in 2001. he really worked hard to hold on to me. worked so well i thanked him with the truth, and a ton of hurt and pain now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

smur, thank you so much for sharing here with me. it really helps to have another in the same boat. lots of times i feel very alienated here. my issue, i know.

gc, i need to read your short but very powerful post more often. thanks.

thanks to all of you. i'm sorry if i missed responding to anyone directly. i'm very tired right now and i'm going to head home. i'm going to walk the 2.5 miles to the train today. that will help me sleep again tonight.

oh, wait, one more thing before i go....

i actually have noticed that i am being self-loving. i have not once dug my fingernails into any skin in order to fight back tears, nor have i scratched at my arm. my habit of causing unhealthy physical pain to stop the emotional pain did not happen yesterday. nor did i turn to food at all, in fact, surprisingly, i didn't even think about, i think i was too tired!!!

so for that, i will pat myself on the back. not a normal habit for me, patting myself on the back. but it seems like a good idea.

FL, if it is any comfort it has been hard for me to face that I lied for nearly 2/3 of my marriage. Even though my A was "only" two years...I kept the truth from my H for nearly 10 or our 14 years together. I think most BS would agree that it is the withholding of information that hurts the most in situations like ours. {{FL}}

FL

Maybe this was a revelation to you today. That no form of words helps your H view your infidelities differently. That no ne of your 'reasons' excuse it nor mitigate it in his eyes.

Strip away the 'interpretation of words' to look at what you have actually got.

You have a man who you have sh*t on repeatedly in many ways for most of your marriage. He is hurt beyond belief and probably has no expectation that there will be no repeat of your betrayal.

Man and Almighty God say its OK fo him to wash his hands of you in divorce.

He may not even know what he feels for you now, after so much pain rammed upon him time after time.

But he is HERE.

WITH you.

in HOPE that you two can work it out.

The man has a holy ,inexplicable love for you FL. He is still here with you. Is not abusive of you. Is trying his best with his meagre tools and expectations.

WHAT a man is this ! I am in AWE of him !

ANY man can fight a battle he can win, but to fight a battle you expect to LOSE AGAIN and STILL Compete with the little he has in the name of love and decency and husbandry ?

Such is heroism. I have tears of pride in your H FL as I type.

I am in awe of your H FL. Truly. It has come to me in a wave. I am overwhelmed with respect for this man who stands by you out of a DECENT instinct alone.

Cherish him FL. Take full responsibility for your past behaviour and CHERISH him. REWARD his faithfulness and wonder at the man God has given you.

All blessings

Hi, FL.

The subject of your thread is "living in an unforgiven state".

I do want to encourage you, that once you have taken responsibility for your actions, forgiveness is available to you.

Once you have received and acknowledged forgiveness, there will come a time and a place for you to establish boundaries as to the role additional guilt will play in your life, and who you will allow to inject that guilt, and how much guilt will be injected. You are not to grovel forever.

As I said in my first post to you, you can't take back what you've done. You also can't pay restitution. Only what you choose to do from here on will determine how others perceive your previous actions.

Please consider all this carefully. You will need it in the future.

God bless,
Gimble

FL

I can honestly say that if I learned that the majority of my M was a lie, I would probably move on. While I feel what you did is just as bad as a ONS, the length of lying would be too much. My FWW and I had many great years until our mutual meltdown starting in 2001, which eventually led to her A in 2003. Knowing that her infidelity started from the very begining would make it impossible for me to ever trust her again.

I will say that I have read many of your past posts and feel that you are learning and while I don't really know you, I would bet that you will never cheat again.

My FWW A has radically changed my views on life and my philosophy. I am not the same person I was pre-A. I never wished that something never happened as much as my FWW A. But one day it hit me...no matter how much I wished, prayed or begged, the bottom line is that it will never be the same as it was. Reality only exists in the moment that it is happeneing and the past becomes less and less real as time passes. Even my FWW thoughts, images and feeling for the OM fade like an over played cassette. Each day that passes those events become less and less real. I learned that and it makes the past easier to let go because it is no longer real. It's just thoughts that have become so faded and false that thinking about them just causes pain. Pain that only I can avoid. I learned I had the power to move past what no longer exists.

As long as you and you H focus on the reality of the moment and honor and love each other like each of you might be gone in the next minute, you both will flourish.

What your past self did was terrible, but that is no longer who you are at this moment. It is up to you to never repeat the bad that you have done. You have that power. I wish you much luck.

well, i hate to say, but i'm going to own my thoughts and feelings anyway.

i think the way things are being presented:

"You have a man who you have sh*t on repeatedly in many ways for most of your marriage." not true.

"the majority of the M was a lie" i disagree.

there is so much more to me than just my infidelity. i just cannot honestly say i can agree to these stmts. I'm not saying i'm not trying to be openning to accepting it as truth.

i'm saying i'm just not there and i'm not going to say i am if i'm not.

i can own my actions, i can take full responsibility but i will NEVER say i was down and out completely horrible to him. that is just NOT true. i tried to be close to him, i did tons and tons of loving things for him, he pushed me away. he told me we didn't need to do things together to have a good marriage. i gave him 3 beautiful children (one in heaven) and i have loved them. i have done countless of activities with them, without him, because he did not want to join us. he would rather go to a good movie without me than a bad movie with me (that is a metophor).

i disagree with his vision of what love entailed back then. at least the vision of what i thought he was saying love entailed.

I have financially provided, i have domestically tried my best, i have supported his business, doing his books, as well as our personal books.

all of this stuff counts!!!

yes, he is a hero for how he held on to me when i was pushing for divorce, he held this family together and he lifted me out of the extremely deep and dark hole i put myself in. every word you said Bob about how much he has done, i enthusiastically agree 200%

and all of this really hits home: i really do not want to take any chance that any of my words may cause him to think his pain is not relavant. i am in no way shape or form saying that what i have done is no big deal and that he should just get over it.

i guess i'm trying to say, i agree what i have done has hurt him beyond words, i agree i need to own up to my actions and i need to own up to changing, growing and maturing in a way so that he is not in any danger due to any future actions on my part. but i just cannot agree to some of these stmts (including his) where the rest of our marriage and my performance as his wife gets minimized and counted as irrelavant.

and for the record, i also think CambridgeMan's W (as he has presented the story) is being unreasonable. Now granted we only have his side of the story in the same way that we only have my side of the story.

so let me have it if you must. maybe it will be good for me. maybe someone's words will cause me to have the "ahh haa" moment i feel like i am being prompted to have.

please understand, what i have said here, i say in order to own up to exactly what i am feeling and thinking right now. i will never not own up to my thoughts and feelings ever again. if i disagree, i will keep saying i disagree until i have either been convinced otherwise or the discussion ends with an agreement to disagree. i have learned that trying to ignore my feelings and trying to discount my thoughts resulted in me doing things in order to compensate. the new me, owns her feelings and thoughts.

FL -

It is extremely painful to read your thread. While I completely understand how your husband feels, having gone through a similar thing, the past is the past. The past no longer exists. Also there is no promise of a tomorrow.

The only thing that is real is today.

I made some tragic choices in the past, and beat myself up for them for years. One was having an abortion. But it is done, and I can't change it now. It was the way I coped to get out of an abusive marriage. It was wrong for me personally, and has caused years of anguish.

The way I lived my life in the past is no longer how I have chosen to live my life. I am a different person now.

Does that mean that the abortion never happened? No. Does it mean that it will not effect me the rest of my days? No. I realize that it forever changed things. I have accepted that.

Your choices have forever changed things in your life, and your husband's life. I think you are a different person now.

Your marriage is a different marriage too. It will never be the same. But it IS a marriage that has been through the fire, and consists of two battered people who are clinging together. That is something very hopeful.

My marriage didn't survive, and for that I am sad. But I still feel good that I did my best when all I wanted to do was give up.

Thanks Believer, very much.

now before anyone spends too much energy replying (not that your replies are not welcome) i think i did have my "ahh haa" moment.

i am mistakenly hearing that i am terrible thru and thru and have not done anything right in the entire marriage when i read some of the comments. and the fact is, no one here, nor my H has said to me "you have been a 100% terrible and horrible wife"

in fact, the very fact that H is still with me should be telling me just that. if all i ever gave him was ****** and heartache, he would have no reason to stay. the fact that he is staying even with the enormity of my betrayals should actually be telling me just the opposite. i must of done something good. hey that is from a Sound of Music song, i love that movie.

back to the point.... i now see your points. it is extremely hard, everytime i force myself to look a bit closer at the destruction and pain i have caused this man, it is EXTREMELY hard. but i guess once i get it all, really see and accept it all, i won't have to have more of these moments when my remorse overwhelms even more than it already does.

my H actually helped me be able to get to this "ahh haa" moment. we talked breifly about this thread.

as always thanks to you all. i'm going to go relax with my H now. i'm sad but somehow i still feel better on some level. i guess maybe that is what happens when you stop fighting internally and just accept reality.

nite all. i will certainly check in tommorow.

FL

I'm with ya girl!

There's a point when you know you're right. In this forum you can get no satisfaction out of lying about your feelings. What's the point then? This is the perfect outlet to express yourself anonymously and not worry what someone might think of you. What are they going to do?

You're right about what side of the story you get. I know I haven't been the best husband I could be. I know my W could tell you stories about how I've made HER feel that I don't even know about. I know that I did not meet her need for admiration. There were times she would do something like clean the house or decorate a room and I'd be "it's alright, it just doesn't matter to me." I know now that was not great because she really needed my support.

You cannot express every day of your marriage in this forum. You are letting everyone know the things that pertain to your feelings and where you need advice. You're right that there's so much more to your marriage. I've said this once before to a friend going through a separation: Don't worry about other people's perceptions of you, you know the truth of who you are, so have confidence in knowing that you're right.

You are here to express YOUR feelings. Sure, your H may feel worse (or may not) but there's nothing YOU can do about how THEY feel. You can only really do something about how YOU feel.

And here you are.

Don't give up. Both you and your H are still in it together.

"You have a man who you have sh*t on repeatedly in many ways for most of your marriage." not true.

FL I retract MOST and the unnecessarily emotive phrasing I used here. I apologise, that was my BS talking.

Of course there is much more to you than your infidelity, but affairs tend to be a focus for BS a lot more than some positive things in marriage.

I can't think of any of Squid's positives that impacted me as radically as Squid's affair has. All the stuff you cite as being good contributions to your H's life benefited YOU too. They greased the wheels of YOUR life too. to cite them as some service you delivered to your H is incorrect IMO.

And IMO you are being unrealistic if you expect your H to consider your positive contributions to your marriage on the same level as your infidelity. Not right now.


i am mistakenly hearing that i am terrible thru and thru and have not done anything right in the entire marriage when i read some of the comments. and the fact is, no one here, nor my H has said to me "you have been a 100% terrible and horrible wife"

Nobody here has said you haven't done anything right in teh entire marriage. No one has said you have been a 100% terrible wife. I don;t know where you get this from, unless it is a sensitivity for you. FACT IS you could have been a STEPFORD wife , or whatever your H needed when you weren;t having affairs and H's life would STLL be defined by yoru infidelity not your wifeliness. Maybe its a WS versus BS thing. Maybe affairs are not seen as destructively by WS as they are by BS. After all they usually provide pleasure of sorts for a while to the WS, but only heartbreak to the BS.

But whether you think its is reasonable or not your H's knowledge of yoru affairs is defining his life right now, and if he is like me it is filtering his everythougt concerning you and your marriage. You think thats unfair?

Well BS think its unfair too.
This post from you reads to me very clearly as a mitigation of your behaviour becaure you were a good wife when you weren;t having sex with other men, and anyway your H didn't join in your family activities as much as you would have liked.


I see now why your H cannot yet forgive you and why your recovery may not be progressing as quickly as you would like.

I have learned that readying onesself for recovery is a risky investment FL, one that it seems you are not prepared to make at this time. That is fine, and is your choice.

I cannot think of a successful recovery on here where the FWS retains thoughts of entitlement and resentment towards their BS after d-day.

And FL, in my very amateur, unimportant opinion you DO.

It probably time I stopped posting to you now FL. I do not want to offend, and I am no MC. Just a bloke.

All blessings. Truly

Hey FL

I like this bit :



Sounds just like JL would say to you (and other FWWs)!!
I'm glad you've had a breakthrough.
Yes - it is possible for both facts to be simultaneously true ie

Fact
- that your H is hugely hurt as a response to your betrayals and needs you to fully and completely take responsibility for what you did and the extent of his pain.

AND

Fact
- you are not a terrible person, in fact you are not the same person anymore. You have learned and grown the hard way. You can forgive yourself and you can work to repair your part of the problems in the M.

Dear FL

I think what you need now is encouragement. You are doing very great in your struggle to become a good W. You are now a FWW rather than a WW. You strive to own what you have done, you repent, and you want to make up for it.

At the same time you need so much to feel a little bit self respect. You search through this black picture for spots of white or even grey, to give you some minimum of self respect. You want to be able to say: "I was not totally a bad person."


I) Not only were you not totally bad, you were mostly a good person: You were a good mother to your children. You were a good employee at work. You were a good friend to your friends. You were a building and contributing citizen of your country. You cared for the needs of others, you shared others pain. Perhaps you prayed for and supported others economically, emotionally or in other ways. In short, you were a good person. YES!
Remind yourself about this daily.

II) But, you also made some terrible selfish choices. And since you did not come clean about these choices, they tainted all of the relationship with your H. You were still mostly a good person. You still cared for other's problems; you still had empathy with pain. You still were a good and faithful employee. But you allowed your M to become tainted a stay that way.


So how can I encourage you now? My hearth feels deeply for your current pain. I can wear your moccasins and walk, not a mile but at least some feet. I feel your desperate need for encouragement and for some self respect.
Still I also feel that BP is right: In your search for a little bit of self respect you try to minimize some of the horror you wrecked. I will talk a little bit about that later. First some encouragement: This is my main message to you. Please remember this more than anything else in this post:


[color:"red"] An A has defining power. So does keeping it hidden for a long time in the M. Yes. This is true.
BUT: what you do to own, and correct for the A has also defining power. You are now in the process of redefining yourself. And I think you are doing great! It is a hard work, and a painful one. Please don't let your feelings discourage you. You are doing great! [/color]


**********

Now I will try to explain what was the point of BP and some others. This concerns the A and how that defined your M at that time. Remember, you are now redefining yourself. You are now choosing to be a better person.
Their intention was not to define you, but to make you understand your H's pain and thereby his struggle to forgive.

It has to do with that taint thing. When there is a secret A in the M, the whole M is unfortunately tainted. If you are 99% of the time behaving like a good and faithful W, and less then 1% of the time cheating, then still the whole M is effected. We can discuss where the boundary for cheating lies. Jesus said any man who looks with lust at another woman has committed adultery with her in his hearth. (From my memory, and with my poor English translation.) According to this definition I have been unfaithful to my wife. I will not judge her from quite this strict a moral code. And I hope neither will she judge me that way. Anyway, somewhere along the line there comes a point of no return. Crossing that point makes you a cheater. Not a 0.1% cheater, or a 50% cheater, but a cheater.

Just to make my point, not to compare to your choices: Consider an employee entrusted with lots of money from the employer. Millions pass through his / her hands every day. This employee is a capable person doing the job very well. After many years of faithful service, just when the private economy was in total breakdown, this employee put a tiny little bit of this stream of money into his/ her own pockets.
Consider also an officer in the armed forces, selling only a few bits of information to the enemy and doing a capable and good service the rest of the time.

Unfortunately an act of betrayal does not stay in its closed compartment, but taints the good parts of the effected relationship as well. This is a choking discovery to lots of WS's.
I hope this enlightens you a little bit on how your H feels about the years of secrets, and why the happy moments you shared with him during this time apparently does not count now.

******************

Then I will return to my main topic: You are doing very well in redefining yourself. Continue on that path! Understand your H and his pain. Feel sorry for what you have done. But do not let those acts totally define you in your own eyes. Work towards regret rather then destructive guilt. Even during the active A you were a good person in most of your other relations. You were a good mother, employee ... You were never a totally bad person.
Focus on who you now are and how you now choose to be. Focus on how you now can be a good W to your hurting H.

I will pray for you, your H and your M.

Wow, good post. FL, hon I tainted my M for ten years with my lies. What frank said here I just got two nights ago. Now focus on this to lift your spirits. NO ONE here is calling you a bad person. This is all about us FWW owing up to our own destructive tendancies including the inability to accept what we did. Honey I am right there with you. Lets walk through this minefield together ok? Even though I am divorcing my H I need to learn from my mistakes so as to never repeat them AND to heal my wounded soul. The lies they ate and festered in my soul leaving a blackness that only time and the Lord can heal. You have people here that love and care for you and will walk you through this.

you guys are all so wonderful.

from the bottom of my heart i want to thank you.

i just want you all to know, i have read every bit of it and i am humbled and blessed to have your support.

soldier on.

This is 100% true.

FL ... you know how much I adore my (now) husband. He's my sweet baboo !!!

However, after D-day .... everything .... and I do mean EVERYTHING we shared during the 2 year span of his A .... was ruined. Garbage. Stenched with the infection caused by betrayal. During my H's A, I was conducting my life with certain knowledge .... like when H would call and say; "I love you" that he meant what he said .... I was unaware that he's be screwing another man's wife 10 minutes after that phone call. Therefore ... all "I love you" messages were rendered invalid for that time period. It's NOT about the sex....

it is NOT about the sex

it is about the loss of perceived reality

as a BS ---> what we thought was REAL was FALSE.

This is the BIG STUFF needing repair in recovery.

Perception of what is real is blown away. Leaving everyting suspect.

And this takes years of hard work to gain comfort in one's OWN perception of reality. Words YOU speak to your H are not going to be his perception of reality for quite a while. Too bad, suck it up.

This is completely different from "being unforgiven". I think you are mixing things up.

You might be completely forgiven by your husband , but not trusted by him.

When your H decides to trust you is none of your business. You job is to live a trustworthy life .... no matter what.

pep, in your opinion, knowing what you know about our situation, since the first betrayal occured while we were engaged, does that time period cover our entire marriage??

i'm really stuck on this pep. i'm trying hard not to be, but it's killing me.

i think the reason i am stuck on this is i am now really understanding that the answer to that question above is yes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

and somewhere in my head i know the only path here is to accept the answer of yes and find a way to be at peace with that answer.

but i don't know how to do that pep. how to do that and still have any spunk left?

how exactly am i supposed to celebrate our anniversary next monday pep??? sure, i have a lot to celebrate, i have a H that held on to me and refused to let go. first for 2.5 years while i tried to push us into divorcing while i (ok, i'm going to give myself a break and not finish that sentence). and now even after hearing the truth about me, he is still here.

but what does he have to celebrate?

If you take this issue of "what do we celebrate" and work it like a math problem ... reducing to the lowest common denominator .... what happends?

That is .... take any problem, and see if the principles you intend to use can also be applied to other problems too.

For instance, how do you celebrate ~other~ important but imperfect milestones?

If I want to celebrate Christmas, but I don't have a history of happy family Christmas celebrations ... what would you advise me to do?

Ignore Christmas?
Get sad?
Get angry?
Start something different?
Change religions?
Move the celebration to a different calendar date?
Find a new family who has a history of happy Christmas?

What is your advice for me FL?

THIS is not your business.

FL

I can easily understand how your H feels and the depth of hurt and betrayal. I think I ahted my wife for a while.
It does hit us blokes right where we live and we do wonder if its worth it or should we just call it quits.

But we usually don’t because despite the A we still usually love our wives, maybe we don’t like them right now and find it very hard to forgive totally, but we love anyway.
In life sometimes we make choices and sometimes life makes the choices for us.

I cant help but think that if circumstances had not interfered, my wife would have been lamenting with you just on this matter. I found it hard to forgive, but eventually found it easier to love anyway no matter what. Will I ever forget or have full trust again?
I really doubt it. I won’t close my mind to it, but I wonder if I ever can or will.

Do I love her less? I don’t think so, just a bit different.

What would I do if I had a wish?
Well funny enough if I can’t have what I have got right now then I wont wish the affair never happened. We had a child recently which if not for the drama around the A we probably would not have conceived nor would my wife have gotten around to getting help over the death of one of our children some years ago, that was like a cancer just growing away in the back of her mind.…………...funny isn’t it?

I know this may not be of great help now but when he is ready he will move on in his attitude. It sounds to me that it is the big trust issue which is eating away at him. Besides living your commitment now to him, showing him and discussing with him how you have changed FOREVER, you will need to wait until he catches up to you on this.

I think he’ll get there, I think you’ll get there too. One day you will give him the ring and he will smile and take it,……just not now.

i had a HORRIBLE history of xmas pep. so i guess i can relate to that one. and as an adult, i didn't do so good with xmas. i was sad every xmas. and i didn't even know why. just out of habit. because xmas was not a happy time for my mom. it was a time for her to focus even more on how much she hated her life.

what did i do to change that habit?

well, first i recognized what was going on inside me and then i changed my focus....

(lol, ok, i'm laughing cuz i initially started this reply with the intent of showing you how your question was not going to apply or work in this case. and just as i typed what i typed up there, i knew you had me.)

so to conclude my answer, i changed my focus. my daughter was already around when this occured, i am not sure about my son, i forget exactly when i manged to learn to like xmas.

i changed my focus outside of myself and towards others. i found happiness in xmas by giving love. i remember having an xmas cookie decorating party for my D and some of your friends, we did it a few years in a row, it was lots of fun. being that they were so little, it was a major mess, but it was fun.

and i finally got the msg of "It's a Wonderful Life". "I don't care what happens to me, bring me back Clearance, Bring me back to my wife and kids. I want to live."

i don't know pep, can that really work here too? cuz after all xmas is not at all the same as an anniversary. xmas, itself, was not the problem. the problem was not understanding how to celebrate xmas.

but in this case, since our anniversary celebrates our marriage, and our marriage is something that doesnt looks too good right about now...

oh, i don't know, i can't decide if you have gotten me or not!!!

awww, thanks A2, damn i cry too easily today!!!!

i knew about the newest member of the family. i did not know you had lost a child. we did too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

i am so very happy for you and AW. you guys have been thru so much.

i really do look forward to the day he will be happy to have a ring on his finger again. just not now...

thanks for sharing.

hmmmmm.... jenius at work <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


hmmmmm.... jenius at work #2


hmmmm .... jenius at work #3


oh ? you mean you have experience changing your attitude ???

hmmmmmm .... jenius at work #4


NO WAY ..... and this actually worked ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


WTF ??? You mean the answer was right in front of you the entire time ???

jenius at work #5


I love decorating Christmas cookies with my kids .... even now they are 16 and 19 .... it's still a friggin mess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Capra-corn jenius at work #6


[censored] at work #1


jenius at work #7



....

hmmmmmm

jenius 7
[censored] 1

I think you got yourself ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

FL,

I'm going to come at this whole "forgiveness" thing from a little different angle and try to get to the reason you haven't or won't forgive yourself? That's right, yourself. While you choose not to forgive yourself for all the things you have done, you act differently, and as this post shows you give power of those things of your life. This in turn negatively affects your relationships and quite honestly henders others from going through their own process and ultimately forgiving you.

So here is what I suggest. First off, figure out what it is that you need to forgive yourself for. Second, ensure that you've shared everything with your hubby, no secret affair still lingering out there. So if you've already confessed those things to him you've taken a step. Now take some time in prayer and confess all these things which haven't forgiven yourself for in front of God, this is assuming you have some faith even if it's just a little. Once you've confessed to Him pray this:

"My creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen."

Then forgive yourself. God's forgiven you. Your husband will on his terms in his time. But what you will have done is taken all the power away from your past and it can no longer control you. From this day forth, then live a life where you don't do those things PERIOD. Your husband will see a change in you as you begin gaining confidence and self-esteem, those are definately loveable characteristics and with that becomes more of a desire for him to be close to you.

Like Pep said in the beginning of this post, Who can you control? You correctly answered only yourself, so now let's explore ways for you to evercise your control working positively towards a brighter future.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

FL,

As you know, I am also a member of the serial-adultery club...my exH had 13 total that I can prove, and probably more than that. At the time, I had no clue he was cheating because I was naive and I didn't look for it--it didn't occur to me to cheat, so it didn't dawn on me to be suspicious. Anyway, there were two instances that I consider MAJOR PA's: one when my DD was born two months premature (I think he couldn't deal with the idea that his child was not perfect and the extra duties of caring for a preemie), and then the one in 1999 when he moved out to another state for 6 months to play patty-cake with his affair partner. In between those major ones, he had email affairs, periodic ONS, and lots of cybersex type A's.

The reason I'm telling you all this is that I can somewhat identify with where your DH is coming from. I went through my whole marriage faithful and truehearted, and no it wasn't perfect--in fact, there were LOTS of issues!--but I thought I had a life partner who loved me. I had this unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky image of MY marriage. When I began to deal with his MAJOR A in 1999, it was like the scales fell off my eyes and I began to see the other ones, and it felt to me as if everything I THOUGHT I had was an illusion. Now, it may or may not have been "all fake" but it sure felt like I had been an idiot all those years, believing stuff that wasn't there and giving my whole self to someone who so repeatedly used me!

I'm telling you now that part of your DH's grief does not so much have to do with YOU...it has to do with HIM losing the illusion he thought he had all this time. Now, he has to sort of rebuild like memories and impressions and history and everything...AND he can't tell if any of his perceptions are real or just dreams because he was so fooled before!!!

I'm trying to discourage ya, but I did mourn for the loss of my illusion for quite a while. I thought we had something special and "it would never happen to us"--and not only did it *happen* to us, it happened over and over all through our marriage and I was just too naive to see it! So I suspect he is sort of reviewing and re-evaluating the whole marriage (from engagement to present) trying to get his bearings and figure out what really was REAL and what was just fake.

One thing that can be very helpful--or at least was for me--was going through the memories and saying, "Nope, this really happened. We really were happy. He/she really did love me. That's wasn't just my imagination." I gradually got some confidence back in my ability to determine reality from fantasy. Maybe you could make him a "memory book" from the time you were newlyweds (after the engagement affair was over) to the present...PHOTOS of times you two were actually happy and actually in love and when you were actually faithful to him.

Finally and in conclusion, one thing it may take him a while to "get" is that getting over an ego-blow like this is really a conscious decision. The past is the past and can never be changed, no matter how much you think about it and analyze it. But the present CAN be changed, and in the present, right now, you ARE making the effort to work on the parts of you that lead to the A's and you ARE making the effort to behave lovingly with him. See...he is so busy dwelling in the past and in the A's that he's missing what is going on now. The trick is that in order to really get out of the past, he has to decide to let go of it--and I don't mean "let it go" in that detachment kind of way...I mean he has to decide that he would rather embrace the present than embrace the past. I suspect he is embracing the past right now because it's familar and it gives him the excuse to not face himself and his current choices and behavior. He can roll around in the pity and not have to work on himself. Making the decision to let go of the past is a big risk because it means you can't "blame" the other person anymore, you have to actually risk that you might get hurt again, etc.

So hang in there, lady. I know it's hard and hurts your heart tremendously, but it's really hard on him too. Don't let him treat you poorly or disrespectfully, but don't completely loose hope either. I think he's just still grappling with his illusion.



FNCJ

FN,

I know this was meant for FL, but it was encouraging to me as well. I want so much to understand my WW's feelings and emotions. I want to be there for her and to help her and she just won't let me in at all. I really wish she would take some interest in this site, the people here and the principals of MB. I jsut don't know how to entice her to do so.

Thank you for sharing this with all of us even if it is a general version <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

R.

CJ, thanks for you post. i must admit, i had to read it quickly as the mtg went 2 long hours, and i now have some followup details in my head that i need to get done before they get pushed out by all of this stuff again. in other words, i am sufficiently distracted right now and i just don't want to get upset again. besides, it feels good that the mtg went well, the supervisor is happy with the progess and some of the pressure is off of me, for now.

i do want to comment on:

i don't think that is really an accurate reflection of what he is doing. i really should not complain, it's not like he is mean to me, it's just the distance thing, he is very distant and emotionally gone, at the worst he gets cold, mostly it's just the absense of emotion. it is very hard for me to deal with it especially because of who i am and my past. feelings of neglect/abandonment, they are really hard for me to deal with. i'm pretty thick skinned when it comes to many things, but not that. i know this is probably stupid to say, i'ld rather be yelled at sometimes then to just have nothing.

ok, that's it from me for today. thanks CJ.

LH, i see you have posted to me too. i really don't have it in me to read it closely right now, but i will tommorow and respond then. thanks.

FL,

I'm going to take an educated guess here: you're a Feeler personality type, and more than anything you crave that emotional closeness and openness. Me too! And just so you know, I think we all have our Achiles heel: mine is being ignored. I can handle honesty, hurt, yelling, even being hit! but if you ignore me (or I perceive I'm being ignored) it hurts me to the bone. If I may be so bold, I also suspect this is part of the reason you had the A's you did...that desire to CONNECT to someone.

One thing I found PARTICULARLY useful when I was feeling unconnected and miserable was to either treat myself with acts that were extremely loving to myself -OR- to volunteer. It's easy to feel all horrible and abandoned and unloved when you sit at home or work alone, but if you go help people who have no home or food, or who have been raped--suddenly you feel a lot more fortunate, and the GIVING is good for ya. OTOH, sometimes I noticed that I had given and given and given and given to others until I was depleted, and it is right and honorable to love yourself. Hey, even the bible tells us to "love others as you love yourself" and that implies that you DO love yourself! So, I'd do something wonderful and replenishing for ME...like journaling or getting a movie I could cry to or take myself out to a park...something to replenish my soul.

((((((((((FL)))))))))))




FNCJ

BTW, not to threadjack, but if you'd like to start another thread, Seekingchange, I'll do my best to answer any questions you may have.



FNCJ

How are you today?

hi FF, yes i am doing better today. thanks.

please know, every word here has been read and is much appreciated. i don't think i will be responding directly to any of it though. i have found an internal equilbrium again, talking with my H more about some of the stuff here helped and just forcing myself to accept reality so i can move forward helped.

i think as time goes on, my eyes open more and the horror of what i have been like, for basically my whole life, deepens. i also think that when i hit new stages like that, i really do have to work hard on getting comfortable with that new perpective, work on my behaviour patterns and then forgive myself again so i can move forward.

i thank you all for helping me this week and wish you all a relaxing holiday weekend (for those of you celebrating labor day!!).