HELP!!!!!
My wife of 13 years and former high schcool sweetheart now wants out of our marriage. We have one 12 year old daugher and guardian ship of my 12 year old niece.
I discovered 3 weeks ago that my wife had been having an affir with a co-worker. So I have been told, there friendship started in December when they both started talking about problems in there marriages. They quickly found themselves drawn closer and closer together by having so many common experiences and interest. There friendship turned into an affair in March of this year. From that point the wife has been living in preparation for replacing me with the OM. The past six months we have been nothing more than room mates. No relationship, activities, friendship, sex, nothing. She turned down me buying a new car for her in April as we had planned six months earlier. She has stopped using money from our joint bank account and trying to live off her paycheck. She does no longer participates in any house work, only things she had done with out kids I have just learned with when the OM was present. They were going shopping, dinner, movies and swimming together with my kids. My wifes excuss to the kids was he is just a friends from work. Her excuss to me was she was doing these things with just the kids and or with one of her female friends. I did not see this because I'm a workaholic and had blind trust in her and us. I know now that I was neglecting my wife and she was desprite for affection and attention. The OM is now meeting all her emotional needs, if not more. When I found out I seen that they had been talking on the cell phone 300 times a month, text messages 400 times a month, going to lunch together, spending sick leave and vacatin time together. Emailing each other all day at work. They have had there jobs threatened for flirting and unprofessional behavior. The OM is now devorcing his wife of 8 years to be with mine.
Once I found out I demanded she quit her job and stop seeing him. She declines to. She says she needs the money and he makes her feel good. Something I have not done in a very long time. We have been talking about what and where we went wrong over the past couple of years. I understand now and have been making changes in my life so I can be the man I used to be and what she needs. However, she says it to late since she meet the OM and now she dont want anything from me now. She says over and over its to late, she can't go back. She says loves me as a family member, not a husband.
Last week I asked that she not come home unless she end it with the OM. She promply came home and packed things and left. She would not tell me or my kids where she was staying or give a phone number. She did not even call to check in with the kids. My daughter is devastated. My wife does not even want to talk me about saving our marriage. She just wants to be with the OM.
What do i do to save our marriage? Is there anything? I had got her to agree to talk to Steve Harley last Friday. However, I caught her with the OM in a Lowes parking lot 30 minutes prior to the call time. When i approached them they flead in his truck. Needless to say she never called or came home until last night. She was very hostile towards me because I have now told both of our families about her the OM. I believe that the OM is completely controlling her and he is lying to her and filling her full of empty promisses. She has turned against all her friends and family that does not approve of the OM. The OM soon to be ex-wife had told me about his character and behaviors and they are nothing like what my wife says about him. How do I stop this train wrech from happening?

Do I give her a plan B letter or file for devorce. I still love her very much and I'm full of regret for the neglect. I have already made major changes in my life style so I'm now available, but she gets angry and ask why now and says it to late. I'm sick about the entire thing. I know I should have done something sooner. Does any one have any ideas how I turn this disaster around?
UPDATE:
The wife whent into a rage today of me spilling the beans about her and the OM to our family and friends. She was telling people that she is now filing for the devorce.
I called her at work shortly before 5 and suggested she come home so we could plan how we wanted to end our marriage. I asked if she has filed and she said no. I asked if that was going to come as a surprise or not. She again said no. She shown up shortly aftew work, first time in months. When she got here she stopped and watched me and my daughter playing basketball. When I cam in side she wanted to talk. She broke down and said she is lost and cant make a descion and wants me to help fix it all. She then wanted me to hold her. Also first in a long time. She actually confessed that his affection felt like a drug that she could not get away from. She actually is scared that it may wear off and he will not be the right descion. She admitted that seeing how I have been improving has made her angry because I did not do it sooner. She said that she is scared that I will have become what she always wanted and she will not be here to be with me. She admitted to being scared that I'm just acting trying to win her back and she will still not find happiness. I reassured her that my actions are genuwine and I'm just being the person that I lost track of and have always wanted to be. I also reinforced that our happines is the first priority and her not being happy is just not acceptable. When asked what to do, I suggested we get help from MB and Steve Harley to help us take the correct steps to find happiness. She admitted to being pulled from both of us and is thinking that separation from me may help. I think now espically with the OM working with her and there at lunch time to infulence. I still want to get her out of that job so we have a shot. Then I would not feel so bad about leting her find and apartment. What should I do about this??? While tucking my kids into bed she left the house. Says might be home tonight or tomorrow. Now I'm scared to death that the OM is undoing all the progress we just made tonight. What do you think? I wish she had not gone... Damn... I guess I will finish reading the (surviving and affair) book and say more prayers. Any ideas on my next step is welcome.

Daz

You will probably get more help discussing this with Steve Harley yourself as opposed to a joint session with your wife. You can later obtain a individual session for your wife (Mr. Harley will update you on that session free from what I've read here). Your WW is still in the throws of an affair. "Working" on the marriage is not going to be her forte. Do not internalize anything she said tonight. She may have wanted to give you hope to keep you at bay on the exposing stuff. WW's are liars until proven otherwise.

You made progress yourself though. You interacted with her in a positive fashion, avoided love busters and convincingly demonstrated you are changing without being needy, argumentative or desparate. Keep up the Plan A and measure progress in tiny increments. Reevaluate more exposure and keep being strong fighting for your marriage.

Once again, call the expert - Steve or Jennifer. We can offer support in the meantime.

Good luck, Mr. Wondering

p.s. - email me...I've got a file you may want to let your wife read someday.

the_wonderings@yahoo.com

Dazed,

Welcome to MB. You have come to a place where you can get some help. I am sorry that you are going thru this, but you can find answers here.

This is a difficult time, but you are beginning to get on the right path by reading Surviving an Affair....read through esp. the parts about Plan A...learning to stop love busters (selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, etc) and to fill her Emotional Needs when you can, where you can will be the key. You will have to be strong and make yourself an attractive alternative through this process. When you feel like venting, come here for support. When WS's A ends and things fall apart, she will want to return to you and your DD. But for now the fog talk prevails--read up on Orchid's reverse babble so that you will know how to respond. WS's are always mad when you expose them to family and friends, but it is the right thing to do.

I am a workalcholic also and it got me into trouble because used work as an escape from things that did not go right in my M. MY FWS is retired and he thought he was unimportant. I was involved in my work and was trusting. I knew things were great between us, but still D-day was a shock. I was lucky because I found MB on D-day. I tried to solve on my own for about two months and then made an appt. with SH. He was great. I coached with him during Plan A, the two Plan B's and thru recovery. I know the only reason that I am still married is because of him and MB. So even if your WS may not join you with SH, you can coach with him individually and it will help.

I hope this has helped and you will get help from others here. Just by being here you have increased your odds for recovery. Take care of yourself and keep posting. ss

Dazed,

You are on the right path and you should be encouraged by what is happening right now. Your wife is torn about leaving you because she clearly sees the changes and knows she is on the precipice of making a huge mistake. Reassure her that her uncertainty is understandable. From her viewpoint, staying in the marriage could also be a mistake. She's struggling with which way to go. That is huge.

Ask her for time to prove to you that the changes you are making are real and aren't just play acting. But in order for you to be able to change, you have to know that she has to trust and believe that your marriage can be restored. She has to give up the other man (and find another job) with no turning back.

Acknowledge that She has to step out in trust to do this, but she also has to realize that you, too, are extending to her trust that she, too, has shattered. You have no guarantees that she would never cheat on you again. But you are willing to try to regain the happy marriage you once had and to keep your family intact.

Exposing to her family was key. You did the right thing. Keep your head cool but don't be afraid to show your own pain at all of this... at what you did to contribute to an unhappy marriage, as well as what she did.

Do not ensourage the separation. It is far harder to work on a marriage when the WS is out tasting the "freedom" they need to carry on their affair. It will only prolong the process of ending the affair once and for all.

Tell her you want her to give up the OM and get into counseling with you for three months. Tell her you want to do this under the same roof. Assure her again of your love for her and that you want your marriage to work.

Set your boundaries. While it is one thing to understand the reasons that brought your marriage to this point and accept your own responsibility, it is quite another to agree to her terms when in your gut you know her terms might spell the end of the marriage.

Lovingly insist on counseling. On making the commitment to your marriage and leaving OM behind. Tell her you'll help her replace her strong feelings for him with new memories the two of you will build together.

You have a long, hard road ahead of you, filled with many emotional pitfalls and pain you can't even fathom right now. But there is also in you path extreme joy and strength and a marriage that can satisfy both of you and nurture your daughter and niece.

Keep posting. You're doing well so far, though I know you are confused and uncertain.

~ Snow

dazed...

you must approach this issue on different levels and planes.....some will seem in contradiction to what you think you should....

when it feels different...then you will know you are doing the right thing...

1. You have on your hand one of the most insidiously dangerous types of WS...a mother who abandons her children for a MAN...must on one level be treated as very very dangerous....

you need to seek legal counsel ASAP to establish legal and rights and guidelines to blocking further exposure of your children to this man...

the fact that your wife is capable of exposing young extremely formidable developmental pre-teen to mommys boyfriend while married...is NOT an issue to gloss over or under assess the damaging potential impact...

mom stands to teach daughters that marriage means NOTHING

mom stands to teach girls that they can become unhappy with their husbands and just pick a new one...and that dad are replacable...

mom stands to undermine both daughters ability to form healthy relationships...

there for you must act accordingly..

have you cut back on work hours...for you must set the wheels in motion that if this doesn't work out that YOU YOU YOU seek and obtain primary custody of these girls....

this man even puts your children at risk statistically for abuse....

this is the time to stand strong and firm on your childrens right to a life free of moms boyfriend while she is married...
check out bobpures...mortarmans....Frankd post...men who have fought this same battle on different levels....

do not power struggle with her questions about why the changes now...
answer honestly...

read everything you can about plan A
no relationship talk..
expose her to someone in control charming and upbeat...

what have you read about plan A and what is your understanding of it..

ark

Update:
She came home last night around 1:30 crying and appologizing. She wanted me to hold her for a few minutes and started to talk but stopped herself. Cried for a few more minutes and went up and changed for bed. While setting with her on the couch (her bed) she said I should be mean to her not nice. However, I just suggested if she wanted to tell me about it I would listen. I then comforted her for about an hour while she went to sleep.
I'm not sure if or when to approach her or do I not at all. Should I try to communicate to her first or wait to see if she tries to contact me. Its really hard not doing anything knowing that is what got me in this mess. I just recieved word this morning that her uncle has died over night. Not sure how that will change her stressed relationship with her side of the family.
I guess I'll have to put the saftey back on the devorce bomb for now.
Should I let her read the (surviving and affair) book. There is many similarities in that book to us and our marriage. However if she sees the plan A and B stuff I would think that would take all the teeth out of the plans. Any ideas?

***THIS IS YOUR MOST VALUABLE EXPOSURE TARGET...USE IT A.S.A.P.!!!

Daz~

You have the perfect exposure situation...her employers have already let them know that romance in the workplace is unacceptable. You can kill two birds with one stone here...destroy the affair AND stop them from working together. If you want to bust up your W's A and get the chance to save your marriage, you MUST expose to her superiors at work!!! YES, SHE WILL BE MAD AS HE!!, she'll tell you "now it's really over", she tell you she's going to file for divorce, and all kinds of other angry babble, but that's okay...Your marriage can survive you W's anger, but it CANNOT and WILL NOT survive an ongoing affair. Your W can get another job, she can't find another you!!! Please heed this advice...don't come here and say, "I'm afraid that I'll lose her if I do this", you already HAVE LOST HER at this point...It is your JOB and RESPONSIBILITY to break up this A...If she continues working with OM, you haven't got a chance, if you ruin the affair the odds are with you when it comes to recovering your marriage...the best way to ruin it? EXPOSE!

Mrs. Wondering

Dazed, you have gotten some really good feedback here from some real pros...there is alot going on for you....when I was going thru this, I printed out the postings and carried them around with me so I could try and remember what to do...and for reassurance to stay strong....I wasn't crazy, just going thru a situation.

WS came home and let you comfort her which is a big thing. She wanted to talk with you and you said you would listen...that is filling a big EN of hers....which she allowed you to do...that was good. You did not give into your impulses which might have been to LB her.



With all that is going on right now, it does not seem as if that would do any good right now because she is still in a fog anyway. Maybe at a later point, you could have her read His Needs, Her Needs when more will sink in.

Stay strong....ss

Mrs. Wonderings has some wonderful advice for you to consider.

I will also say GREAT Job with the comforting. In my opinion you need to do three things in the very immediate future.

1. Read up on plan 'a' and meeting emotional needs. Impliment a flawless plan 'a' with no love busters, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts...etc.

2. Expose, expose, expose. I think you mentioned that you had exposed to some family and friends. In one swoop expose to anyone who has an impact on her including her place of employment. To most you simply say, "I just wanted to ask for your prayers and support, Mrs. D&Cks is having an affair and I am trying to save our marriage". To the work place you can be a little more aggresive. Are either of them higher up on the food chain? Either of them supervisors?

3. While doing all this you also need to have legal advice IMMEDIATELY especially as too the welfare of the children. I'm presuming you are in Kansas by your name. I live in Salina. Kansas still has a lot of "old time" thinking judges sitting on the benches, so you need to get your ducks in a row, especially if you would be seeking custody....

I have spent many hours thinking about how to explain what is going on to her human resources director. Of which is a woman married with three kids. I would think that she would be compelled to help, however may be scared not wanting to get into trouble her self. The thing that scares me is what if it all back fires and her HR director tells her of my actions and then does nothing. I'm sure that would be a major set back. However, I know her work place has been bending to allow her to continue to work there. She has been written up had her job threatened several times. 1) She has used all vacation time, it has been pointed out to me by the HR assistant they used it all together. 2) she has used all her sick leave, and much of that was used with him as well. She has now started to use leave with out pay. Also is consistently using the five minute buffer in the mornings to not be counted as late. Also, she has been written up for being consistently late back from lunch. Has also be asked to dress more appropriately. Also has been question about hanging on the OM at company mixers.
My wife is a receptionist so her job is easily replaceable. The OM’s job is company controller. With him being in higher management that may also be a road block for me getting them out of there. I personally don't want him to loose his job. I think she would blame herself and have guilt for him and may be drawn even closer to him. I just want them to tell her she had 15 minutes to leave the premises. Any suggestions how to present my request of getting my wife fired with out the bomb going off on me at the same time????

dazednconfusedks - you are doing fine for now. Just know that your wife is still in the fog and hasn't even come to "withdrawal" yet. Right now she is "negotiating" with you, a normal step in the Wayward Spouse process of attempting to "have her cake and eat it too."

The consequences of an affair can be far reaching, including the loss of a job. Let me tell you one thing that would scare the begeebers out of any employer...an employee in a position of authority not only approves of, but persoanlly engages in, sexual harrassment for his own pleasure with the intent to commit adultery and to cause an Alienation of Affection situation to come into being, the result of which can be a Lawsuit against both him and the Company. Condoning sexual harrassment on the part of the company is SERIOUS legally and financially. Alienation of Affection is serious depending on what wimpy or tough State you live in. In my State, there are TEETH in an Alienation of Affection suit, but in others they don't even recognize such a suit (so much for those State's support of marriage).

Your story is unique to you. Just know that it is not unique to us and, so far, everything you have described is right out of the "Wayward Spouse Handbook of Course 101."

My wife was "out the door," had divorce papers drawn up, had her own apartment (to satisfy the State's requirement for a one year separation prior to granting a divorce), and had accepted a proposal of marraige from her OM. YES, it appears DARK right now, but it is NOT hopeless!

You are behaviing magnificently! Continue your patience and your changes!

If you think it would help, I can give you links to my first couple of threads, some 3.5 years ago, when I thought my marriage was OVER.

Also, if faith plays a role in your lives, let us know and you will get a lot of additional support from fellow believers.

God bless!

Hey FH,


I would be interested to hear your story...what are the links?

Raro

MORE BACK GROUND>>> This took place this past Sunday. While I was doing all the exposing I could. This tells you what I'm dealing with.

The OM’s wife has already filed for there divorce and he has quickly left her and there home for my wife. His divorce is set to close November 7th. His wife has been very helpful for me. Provided me much information about her side of there affair. The story gets even more twisted. The OM is an obsessive control person and is manipulating both my wife and his. His wife actually was the bread winner of there family and tells me she has acquired a lot of assets, home equity, 401k, and savings. OM threatened to take half of there assets unless she let him out fast with only giving him a check for 11k. After OM’s wife told me all the dark secrets about his personality which is the opposite of what he has painted to my wife. I exposed the OM for what he really is to my wife. The fact that every major personality characteristics about him is the opposite of what he has been presenting to my wife. Every category he has used to turn my wife against me with he appears to make me look like a saint. The areas that my wife and I have struggled he has presented himself to be everything she wants in a husband. Yes, I know my wife gave him the play book by confiding in him all her problems and desires. She just can’t see that yet. Some of these things are: I love kids and have two. He never wanted them and that was an issue in his marriage. His wife tells me he said they take too much of your time and money. Plus he was too immature to be a father. I think his ideals have helped turn my wife for a great mother into a shell of one. He told my wife he makes more money than me and can provide better for her where I can’t. OM’s wife tells me he makes less than I do and has bad credit. All there assets are in her name even the truck he drives right now. The apartment he lives in is his dad’s. The cell phone he used to steal my wife’s time with was his wife’s and the phone he has now is his dad’s. He told my wife he had not had sex in two years and it’s not as important as friendship and affection. OM’s wife tells me he is a total pervert and his demands in the bed room was a major riff in there relationship. She felt like an object and was continually hurt. Also, they had sex five times the day there divorce papers was served. The last night the OM spent with his wife, she awoke with his fingers in her paints. Sorry about the graphic display. There is much more the OM’s wife has said about him. I’m not sure weather to believe it or not. OM’s wife says she filed on him and does not want him back so why lie. When she told me this stuff she sounded like a complete wreck. So, I don’t know.
My wife confronted OM about all the conflictions of character that was noted about him from his wife. His wife called me and said she could no longer talk to me until there divorce was finalized because he quickly threatened her the second my wife was done confronting him. OM’s wife tells me that OM told her because she could not keep her big mouth shut he was tearing up the agreement for 11k and is now going go after half of there assets which will require her to sell her house and will result in him taking 80-90k instead 11k. OM’s wife claims he is also threatening bodily harm towards her. She is scared to death. I insisted she call the police and tell them everything she just told me. This is the kind of guy were dealing with. I get the feeling he will not back away from my wife even if she tries to end it with him. Me and family are in real trouble here.

Dazed,

Two things you need to do in the next few days. One, get a lawyer ASAP and protect yourself. Second, expose the affair at their work. Read Gramm's thread for an idea of what to do or just do it.

Best

UPDATE: At lunch today I decided to follow the wife. She drove right to the OM apartment and parked her car in his garage to hide. I waited around the corner for them to leave. The path i took she did not even know that i was waiting for her. I caught up a few blocks later and followed her to work. The chicken ****** OM seen me and ran like a little baby in the opposite direction. I stopped and visited with the WW at there work parking for a few minutes to see the the chicken OM would even show up. He did not. She was obviously shaking and started to swell with tears. It was hard as ******, but i stayed calm, comforted her visible shakeness and keep our conversation possitive and upbeat. At that time I confirmed her phone call appointment with Steve Harley tomorrow morning. She had not hesitation accepting.
Should I spy on them or not? It breaks my heart to see this _hit. Should I confront them when I see them?

This OM is a nutcase, manipulative, self-serving, and vindictive. I agree with UVA, expose the creep at work. It MAY cost your wife her job, but this guy has no business being in any position of authority. Play "hardball" with his employer. Your #1 job, no matter how "unpleasant" it might get, is to rescue your wife from that idiot, regardless of whether or not you two reconcile. I'm bettting that once she begins to see the "real him," the dam will break and she'll be hit with grief and remorse for what she has been doing. Be there when that happens to help your "sick" wife back to health.

God bless.

Raro - here you go. Feel free to ask any questions you'd like.

First Thread of ForeverHers

Second thread of ForeverHers - Miracles happen when you are obedient to God.

A "Bonus Thread" that you might also find some helpful information in:

Withdrawal - What's it like and how to deal with it from those who have experienced it.

God bless.

With all this information I would like to make two observations.

1. Do not violate the trust of OM's soon to be XW again. Having her on your team is an advantage. The information she gives you is only valuable to you. Your WW will discount anything she says anyway so it is not worth repeating, in whole (see #2).

2. Do not give up your sources. You could have effectively utilized this information in bits and pieces without revealling the source. See how upset you got the love-birds. WW immediately sang to OM, OM had to do damage control with WW then call his wife to manipulate/antagonize her then you and OM's Wife had a discussion. You can bet OM is insecure about the lies he has told your wife. Why not disrupt them a little bit at a time? Let them try to figure out where you got such information. You can even give your presumptions in generalities and state them as facts.

If you get info on the computer or with a digital voice recorder do not immediately disclose it. Wait a day or two when they will not be sure when, where, what they were doing at that time or how you could have got the info.

3. Affair partners are almost always a step down. I believe knowing this information should enable you to have confidence that in the end WW is going to come back to you. It might seem hopeless now but have faith as you are the better, more secure, more attractive choice. With faith in yourself you can regain some of your swagger. Visualize the confidence you had when you first met/dated her. To the extent possible that is how you should be interacting with her now. The more confident you are... the more effective Plan A will be and the more likely you will ATTRACT her back to your marriage. I promise you she will eventually teeter between the two of you and if you have Plan A'ed properly you will win hands down.

ACT OUT

Do get the legal advice to protect yourself and you family.

That said. This is an excellant opportunity to become your wife knight in shining armor. Do not lecture or speak ill of OM. He sounds like he will self disctuct all on his own. Determine what aspects of your behavior lead to making your marriage vulnerable and make corrections. It will take several weeks of improved behavior before your will be convinced it is permanant. The fact that your wife talks and is affectionate shows her mind is not made up. Listen to her, be there for her, support your children. Make her decision easy.

bob

Update:
The exposing has really made the WW mad at me. She went nuts last night throughing things and screaming at me. She thinks that I have turned the hole world against her. She has really upset the kids and because they dont want to talk to her she thinks I have turned them on her. Yesterday she got demoted at work because of all her tardies and blames that on me too. She says she can never face my family again after they know about her boy friend. She says there is no way in ****** we can work this out now. What do I do now. The night before she asked me to fix it and for the first time since the OM seemed like the woman I new. Now that I have exposed them, she wants nothing to do with me and cant stop talking about when she's gone type of stuff. Do I set and take it or do I get her out of the house? My kids are really seeing and hearing way to much. The WW is now threatening me by telling our kids and family about our very personal problems so she can justify her boy friend. Its just getting harder and harder. I will always love her but I thinking I should just go file and get the kids and send her on her own path. HELP?

Dazed,

This may be difficult to understand right now but good job on exposure. Your WW is in active conflict with you which sure beats withdrawal. I implore you to wait on any divorce filing. That would be an emotional decision. Let the exposure sink in an do its job.

She is angry. Just let her vent but remain confident you are attempting to save your family. She will give up trying to manipulate you if you remain confident you did the right thing. Flip it around on her..."Honey, what would you do if it were me having an inappropriate relationship with another woman". Deep down she knows your doing exactly what she would do and will admire you for it...EVENTUALLY.

The OM in your case is a loser. You will get your wife back if you stay the course. Just let the fog babble bounce right off you.

I think you should discuss the nature of affairs with your children and indicate your love for your wife. They should be assisting you in attracting your wife back to the family/marriage. By not talking to her they make the pleasures of escaping with OM seem that much more attractive. I would like other opinions on this but can nearly adult children living in the marital home be asked to Plan A as well (or merely have Dad's Plan explained to them so they can participate and support it). Perhaps just an explanation by Dad that you do not want them to choose sides...what their Mom did was a mistake but both Mom and Dad contributed to the breakdown of the marriage.

ACTdontreact

dazed- I agree with ACT on everything he said.
In my case WW's OM is a step down, a loser just like your WW's, money wise, education and also did 4 yrs in prison, but she says you don't know him like I do. FoG BABBLE....

Don't believe anyhting that comes out of her mouth, she is mad at you for exposing, beacuse it's more fun to be in a secret A. She is trying to shift blame to anyone except herself. But she is the one who chose to carry on.
Be strong for you and your kids.

Dazed~

I'm a little confused about your last post, did you expose the A at your W's office? To the HR director? What did you say?

If you didn't expose at work, who did you expose to? Again, what did you say?

Hope you don't mind clearing this up...you'll get better advice here if we are all clear about where you stand...

Mrs. Wondering

Wonderings: I have exposed the A by telling both sides of our families and several of our friends about the WW and the OM. The WW's mother, sisters, brother, my mother, brother, some of our friends, OM's soon to be EXW. I told them that we were having deficulties in our marriage because the WW has been seeing OM from her work place. They all suspected it, and several of them already new who he was because they had either seen them together or had been hearing rumors. I just really confirmed some of those rumors and offered my opinion about the guy manipulating her. I also told all of them that i really love my wife and want to try to save her from this loser and rebuild our marriage. I had ask each one of them to try and not judge her. Rather be there for her because she will need each one of them. I accepted blame for neglecting her and providing the grounds for her to be so vulnrable. Her mother and sisters was most upset and have confronted her now. They are upset about WW choosing OM over our kids and me. WW tells me that I should have never taken our problems to them. Espcially her family.I said you should have neve taken our problems to OM. She tells me to stay away from them all. WW says she will never face any of my family again now either.
Before I had said anything this past week end, the word had been slowing coming out any ways, because I first confronted the WW at my sister in laws house. The morning I watched the live up to date cell phone records showing she had spent all night talking to OM. After trying to get the WW to come out side for over a half hour, I lost it and accused her of seeing OM while she lay in the house. My daughter, sister in law and her husband all heard our argument. Yes, I know I should have sheltered my daughter better but, I was running on emotions. The day of realization that your wife is having an affair was to much for me to handle properly.
No, I have not worked up the currage to call her HR admin yet. I need help on how to present this to her. HELP? I don't want her to know that i called in and then blame me. Worst case is the HR admin, tells her and does nothing. Becaus I have been telling the wife to quit, she will most likely blame me for anything that happens out there..

Another update on WW work front. Yesterday the wife recieved another disiplinary action for tardiness. .50 per hour demotion. Of which she blamed me for this morning by saying I had caused her to be late for work in the morning. All just a bunch of crap. I think I did make her late twice by parking behind her car in the drive and I held her up maybe two minutes. She was already running late from talking with OM on cell phone will in the bath room instead of doing her hair and make up. Big deal. I believe the tardies that have got her busted is being late back from lunch while with OM.

HELP:::
It's nearly lunch break time. I know the WW will probaly hook up with OM. Do I intervine in any fashion. Do i ask her to lunch, of which she will probably say no. Just like yesterday. I ask to take her to lunch. she wrote me a sad email back turning me down. Then she meet OM at his apartment for an hour. This stuff is really tearing my guts out. HELP..

Dazed,

You've done great with exposure to your families...don't worry about what your WW says...FOG...your marriage can make it through any amount of her anger, but it can't survive an ongoing affair...

As far as her HR administrator goes, You simply state that your WW is having an A with XYZ, who is her superior at the company. Then you ask her what her course of action will be taken regarding this matter? Then you shut up and let her do the talking...you've already told us that both of them have used up vacation time, sick time and logged loads of hours through company email...you probably won't have to use this info, but if you need it, you've got it.

As far as you taking the "blame" goes...take out the word blame, and replace it with credit. When your W confronts you about it, tell her that you love her and will continue to use any means necessary to save your marriage from being destroyed by her affair...

Mrs. Wondering

Let her go to OM. She can vent her anger at you to him. Let him deal with her venom. Reality is setting in for both of them. It will not be a cozey secret lover's rendevous. You should call the work while she is gone. Get exposure done in one swoop. Do not sweat how to do it the most important thing is getting it done. Hopefully, OM will get a reprimand and/or fired also. Make sure to ask HR woman what she intends to do about it. Do not make it sound like you are just informing her...you intend or hope for her to take action against both of them.

You can deal with her anger. She will threaten to leave, divorce whatever...just stay the course. Busting up the affair is your primary objective. What she says/does to you is irrelevant and should be internally ignored by you. She will settle down.

Good job, ACT OUT

Dazed, do the same thing that you did yesterday...anything that you can do to keep them apart, and/or make the A more difficult...shine as much reality as possible on the A...NO MORE FANTASYLAND!!!

Mrs. Wondering

Dazed,

I base the "do what you did yesterday" advice on a couple of things...

1. Yesterday when you did this, you got to comfort your visibly shaken wife...OM ran when the going got tough, who was still there for her?

2. In my A, much of the communication was done on the phone in the evening...my H was constantly at the office then...when my H found out about the A, he was home every single night around 6:30-7:00...the OM and I were able to communicate less and less...One of my ENs (like a lot of women) is conversation...guess who got to meet that need now? My Husband of course...

I wish the advice I had to give was not based on the result of my poor life choices, but maybe now some good can come from the biggest mistake of my life...hope this helps some...

Mrs. Wondering

Let me just echo Act and Wonder, finish exposure and when your wife talks to you think before you speak. Do not love bust. She's pi$$ed because you are ruining her FANTASY and that's exactly what it is, a fantasy not based in reality. Your exposure is the reality and allows reality to set in.

UPDATE: Taking the intervention advice, I probably made a pretty big love buster. I called and asked WW to lunch shortly before the hour. Of course she declinded and was still hostile about our daughter being mad at her. While getting into my car for lunch, I thought I would take a path to go eat that would most likely run across them if on there way to OM's apartment. (Now thinking bad idea).
I seen no sign of them and precedded to get a greese bomb from wendys. On my way back to work I seen WW car parked just off the road at a nearby park. Just happens to be street side of the road that leads to OM apartment. I pulled in to see whats up only to find her setting there in the car. Oops. My take is she was waiting on him and I got there first. However, now I look like a stalker. Of which she accused me of. Which I guess is true. Man I really suck at this. So, we talked over lunch. At this point I pretty much had to set and let her rip on me for all the things I have done wrong over the last 13 years. Which she has memory for bad things like and elephant. So after her walk down bad memories lane, she tells me this is why she can't trust that i have really changed my ways and will make her happy again. She says that my mistakes and neglect have with drawn all her love for me. She is scared that i will break her heart again. She asked me if I thought she loved me when she would call and ask me to come home early and be with her and I did not do it that broke her heart. She ask that if I thought she loved me, when she would make request for me to stop doing things that made her feel sad or hurt her and I did not. She ask, I thought she was happy while I gone and she was just a house wife. I knew and know the answer to her points. (YES) I told her Yes to all of them. Then she ask, because of all this time you choose to make our lives this unhappy, do you think I should give you another chance to break my heart all over again? I said no.
She is wrong for being with OM, but she is write I broke her heart with selfishness and neglect. She says my promise to not make the same mistakes again don't mean anything because all the times she reached out to me and I was not there. U know she is right about all that. I have been a bad husband in a lot of ways. The only thing I could say, is I just want you to be happy. I will never make the same mistake again not matter what. Because of that I think we can be happy together again. However, if u are not willing to open your back up to me. Then I have to let you go in your own pursuit of happiness with out me. She says, she could never go back to being my houe wife. My reply was, I never want to back to that life where neither of us was happy. She said she dont think she can feel the same for me any longer. The history of bad memories that haunt her about me. The scare that i will regress back to my work and leave her all alone again is just to much. She is just so bruised by our problems that a fresh start with another looks so appealing. She is really hurt over her daughter thinking mom is a bad person. She don't know how to repair that or even deal with it either. At this point our time was up and we went back to work. Very sad. I just don't know how I got so lost over the years. I will carry this guilt for rest of my life. The girl i have know sense we were 11 years old. The single most important thing in my life i lost track of. I know there is no excuss for her affair, however my actions left the doors wide open for someone to come take her heart away and thats just what happened. Considering the toll that i have taken on her, how can i ever win her back and get a chance to love her the way I should have for the entire 13 years? I feel like she don't really owe me anything. It's just so hard knowing that I failed my wife and kids and allowed her to become so lost that OM looked like a good way out. What can I do??????????

You are PARTIALLY responsible for the state of the marriage. NOT fully responsible. A lot of what you are hearing is her rewriting history to justify her affair. Do not take blame for her choices. Listen to her. Take responsibility for your shortcomings (don't argue). But do not take responsibility for the affair or agree that it was justified. In time, she will come around. I speak from experience.

Exactly engineer bob- do not take responsibility for the A. Hey I may be broke, but I don't rob banks. She had a choice!
Yes you may have not met some needs here and there, but it was her choice to participate in an extramarital affair. She will tryo to blame everyone for this to shift the blame off of her.

Thanks to everyone for your support. It is great to see how many people are willing to help on this forum. Really impressive to me.
UPDATE:
WW was still very very mad about my stalking tact from lunch. For the first couple of hours she would only talk to me by throughing hate punches of our past short comings. Phrasing most of her statements with (when I'm gone) crap. I did not argue at all, just calmly tried to talk. Again I asked if she was so sure that she is leaving just how do you want to do it. 1) Full devorce, both of us set down and decide in a civil manor how to end it, or get a lawyer that both of us can work with, or each of us get lawyers and not ever talk again until the closing court date. 2) A legal Separation of both us and work out kids and assets. 3) A non-legal separation where one of agrees to leave the house and kids. All I got was silence. No more talk. After about an hour went by she asked me for her rings back. Not to wear, just to put back in our bed room on the dresser. I had hid them a week ago and that really pissed her off too. So, I gave them to her. Another hour goes by. We sat and watched tv, neither of us speaking. Finally she moved from the chair to the couch beside me. I ignored her for another half hour. From the corner of my eye I noticed she was looking at me off and on. Finally I reached over and put my arms around her and held her. The tears errupted from both us. We both agreed it was suppose to be us forever. She again asked why I just did not come home to her for so long. She says she is so scared that she will make the wrong descion and to tell her what to do. We spent a couple of hours talking about our special memories together. She is worried for me. That I will never be happy again with out her. She is worried that she will feel guilty for ruining my life. Also, worried that she wont be happy after breaking up our family. Worried that i wont ever be there for her again to care, comfort, and protect. Our tear filled evening eventually ended by us watching a movie and me comforting her and holding her until she drifted off to sleep. Then this morning she did make the phone call to Steve Harley and they visited for an hour. However, her mind set did harden back up by the morning. She told me before picking up the phone. Just because I'm calling this guy, don't think that things are okay with us or ever will be, and don't get all exicited thinking you have a chance. She said that she just got emotional last night while tring to talk to me about us not being together. However, she did spend just over an hour with Steve. I did give her complete privacy so I don't know just what was said. I think she most likely left little hope for us. Steve talked breifly to me after there talk and said pretty much what I already new. She does not trust that i will not hurt her again. The only thing i can do is to back off her and let time prove that I will become the person that I'm promising. Because of my poor track record, she will just have to see your improvements to believe in you. So on with the next day.

This is all standard "script".

She's only allowing herself to see the negative things in your marriage right now...it's her mind's way of 'justifying' her affair. Almost all WS's do this. It's a mental defense mechanism to allow themselves to deal with what they're doing. You'll see it called 're-writing history' here.

Here's what YOU need to do.

1. Accept that you did make mistakes, acknowledge what those were, and identify how you're going to avoid them in the future.

2. Do NOT allow her to convince you that you ruined the marriage. Remind both yourself and her of all the GOOD that has taken place too. When she starts down that road of bringing up all the negatives...start bringing up all the positives. Make it clear to her that you'll accept that things weren't always perfect...BUT it's NOT all your fault. And that there was a LOT of good in your marriage...or she would have left you LONG ago.

3. Stop apologizing for ANY action you've taken to end the affair and re-build your marriage. Yes...you checked up on her. What's wrong with that?!?!! Not one thing...she's your wife, and there is not a single thing wrong with you wanting to do whatever you can to get her to end her ILLICIT relationship with another man so that you can fix your marriage!!! So you 'snooped'...big deal. Again...she's trying to shift the blame on you...when SHE's the one who's doing the immoral, illegal behavior. Don't accept that...calmly tell her that you've done nothing wrong, and that you'll continue to take whatever actions you think are needed to get her to end her affair with this guy.

4. DO continue to show her that you love her, care for her, and worry about her. DO keep making your house a place for her to feel safe in...and try to make sure that she can TALK to you about any of this...as long as it's talk and not just bashing you. When she does start attacking you...ignore her. Walk away...tell her that you will gladly talk with her when she stops attacking and starts talking reasonably.

This is NOT hopeless...but it takes a balance of love and strength to get through this...I know...I was in the same boat a year and a half ago...but we made it, and so can you.

Owl-thanks for your help. I want nothing more that her affair to end. Each minute that I know he is still in her thoughts as a possibly option to me, it just destroy's me.
Because I have caught them together twice now she is scared of me. I found her at his apartment two weeks saturday and was so very close to earning some jail time. I did threaten OM with bodily harm. At the same time I have re-inforced the fact that I have never physically abused my wife and never will. All I have is love for her. Well, Steve tells me that i can not violate her levels of saftey. Because of all this she is scared of me. I also know that I can not ever physically harm the OM. The things I need to do are: Convence her that she can be cared for by me, safe with me, protected by me, and attracted to me. These four points are tough to achieve while running around stalking and intervining in her life just to split up the affair. I do see both sides of the coin. If I'm constantly smoothering her now, I will not look attractive and will most likely be playing into OM's hand. I need to make OM act stupid and desprite and make her run from him to me. Not the other way around. The exposing thing at her work still scares me real bad. Yes, she has to get away from the OM, but I get the blame for her or his job loss she will use that against me like a nuclear bomb. I have to prove to her that I will no longer use my time away from the family and doing things to make me a better person. Either with or with out her that will help me. I just need her to buy into my promises. While the OM exposing himself as the loser we all can see he is.
Owl- here is a stupid question. what is (D-Day) that everyone on this site refers to and how long did it take to get your wife agree to come back and save your marriage?

"D-day" usually means discovery day...the day you found out about the affair. Or confirmed it, or she admitted it...whatever applies.

In my case, I suspected something for about a month, but couldn't prove anything until I finally hacked her IM account and setup logging. D-day was the day I read the logs and confronted her with the evidence.

Take a look for my story over on the recovery board. In our case, it took about a month or so after d-day and after OM started to break it off because she couldn't make up her mind before she began to honestly work on reconciling our marriage.

To her credit, once she DID make the choice, she did it wholeheartedly. The only issue we had after that was her desire to keep a "friendship" with OM...which of course I was totally opposed to.

Owl-Thanks, I'll look at your post. My D-day was 9/06/05. I learned that WW fell for OM in early March. WW has spent six months getting lost in OM's fog. Because of the lenght of time and the OM's divorce paper was served to him in May, WW is so far gone now there is such little hope. At this point she will not stop seeing him. She only talks about saving our marriage during the darkest hours when we speak of divorce. I will never give up hope on my wife and I will love her forever. I still believe she was suppose to my sole mate. However, I need a miracle and i know it. I'm just about to the realization that she is going to have to go and either crash and burn or be happy with another. Of which will be so very painful to me, but if she really could be happy then i would feel like I atleast gave her that one way or another. Really hard to stay positive my shoes. Pray for me....

Dazed- hang in there. I'm in the same boat as you or worse. WW affair been ongoing for 2 yrs dday was 7/4/05, and only partially conffessed that night. She moved in with OM for 4 weeks then came back and left 3 days later. Now moving in a trailer, and everything that used to be important to her is not any more. Pets,nice house, family etc... She says she finally found something that makes her happy. right, she thinks shes happy, but shes still in fantasyland. Me I'm at home with DD (16) and all the dogs etc...One day she will wake up and maybe she won't, but hang in there!!!

bigwave-thanks for the kind words. Good luch with your WW! Have you taken any legal action yet. If I take a plan A or B with my WW, I'm worried about the kids and what I could do to protect them and myself incase she drops the "D" bomb. The risk is leaving myself wide open for the bomb to hit and then loose my kids and assets. I think I got until 11/7/05 when OM's divorce is final. Then he gets his bonus check from his EX. I bet loser OM has already offered to finance WW divorce. She told me he has offered to give her money, a place to live, cell phone, and who knows what else.

Dazed- I believe motorman is the expert on here as to custody for BH. In yours and my case the WW's are leaving the home. they have also commmitted adultery so don't see how you could lose kids all together. yes you will split assets etc, but look up motormans thread regarding custody and BH

bigwave - I think the custody for BH info may be easier to find by reading Mortarman's posts on Gramn's thread from a few months back.

Okay what do I do next???
I have avoided emailing and calling the WW today other than to tell her I delivered the kids home from school. Should have scored points by caring for the kids. Her voice was soft and somber for the duration of our brief phone call. Normally she is sharp and qick with me unless feeling bad about us. I had been emailing her and talking to her on the phone several times a day. Steve told me she complained to him about that so I'm backing down. Steve said to not smoother her right now because it makes me less attractive to her.
Not sure where WW and OM went today for lunch. I have exposed them and caught them in the past few days at several places around town, so there meeting points must now become fare more secretive and the degree of difficulty has been increased. I decided to hide out near there work place today and see if they would try to meet near the street that leads to his apartment. Which is what they have been doing. No sign of them. I think if they met they had to miss lunch all together because the other direction out of there work is where I caught them last friday and I told WW that others have been seeing them and reporting them to me. No other ways to get to restaurants. They must be really really paranoid about meeting now. However, they still are doing it. This is all so sickening to me. Will all of you say a prayer that my WW wakes up and the fog will lift forever and soon. Last night and this morning I feel that we really made some progress in the right direction. Now she has to go back to work and there that basturd is ready to spin her head all back into his favor.
I know many of you say to expose them to there work HR...
Do I call her work and drop expose them to her HR admin or do I wait to see what she does tonight? I'm so scared that the HR exposure will blow up and blow me up to. Is there anyone that has experienced doing this and if so did you bare the brunt of the aftermath?
WW's uncle died this week and the funeral is Saturday. WW said she can't get off work Friday to leave but i could take my daughter and we could go. What kind of drunken logic is that. Obviously she is looking for a way to get me the stalker off her back so she can hook up with sorry worthless OM. D-day was 9/6/05 and nothing has really changed for us. I need help coming up with plan. She seems to respond positive to me when I pull away from her. Like last night and the other night. I start talking divorce and she comes to me for loving care and comforting then starts telling me she is confused and don't know if she really should leave or not. If I start in by saying I want to save our marriage, she runs the other way and starts telling me why we can't save it. It's all nuts to me. I have not talked to her yet about her call with Steve. I guess I have to wait until tonight to see if she wants to talk about it. She really did not want to talk to him but did it to entain me plus of the cost that i already committed to. Please someone give me examples of how you exposed your spouse to there employeer.

I have another question:
How should i contact OM's parents? His mother is a librian at my kids school and my daughter says she is bugging her while at school. OM's mom is asking my DD if she is okay and is trying to be clingy with her. This really upsets me. My kids already know to much. Now this crap. OM's soon to be EXW tells me OM is very tight with his parents. How should I expose the truth to them? Should I write a really good letter about how her son is detroying my family and give her details to make her think about how wounderful her little boy is and not to mention my wife. I'm thinking the parents that are really tight with OM will have a major affect on him and his hopes for the future. What do you all think???
Sorry about all the post today. Just can't shut my mind off on this stuff. I love my wife so much...

She runs away from the loving attention because she is hurting you and she knows it. She comes closer to you when you bring up divorce because she wants to cake eat. she wants you around to meet cetain needs while still engaging in the affiar.Trust me I went through this crap for 2 months before finally kicking my ww out.As long as you meet her needs and she sees om she won't stop. she is getting everything she wants. I made the same mistake of tring to meet my ww needs and she took advantage of it. Remeber you are not dealing with the same person you married. She is now all fogged up. I finally came to the relisation that I had to let her see what life with om would be like without me around to help her emotionally or physically.

As long as you can take it stay in this stage of plan A. but it sounds like some planB might be in order.Go dark on her and spend your energy with your child. As long as you stalk she will continue to get off on having two men fight for her.STOP.

UPDATE: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This morning WW tells me that she's moving out this week end. She says she wants a 1 month separation to figure everything out. She says she hopes after a littel time away from me that she will miss me so much that she wants to come home and repair our marriage.
Get a load of this--- Her plan is to move in OM's apartment with our two kids. She claims that OM will move back to his parents house so she and the girls can move in. She claims that OM's dad is okay with this but OM's dad wants her to pay rent. Well first of all why would she need to pay rent for a 1 month leave??? 1 month my [censored]... Also, I'm suppose to believe that OM would not be there... yah right. My kids go to bed every night by 9:30PM. That would leave plenty of time for WW and OM to share quality time missing me I'm sure..... The big snag that WW has not even thought about....My daughter know's what mom is doing and the OM is the cause. Daughter will NEVER accept OM... I bet WW will never get our daughter to set foot in OM's apartment again even if OM was out of the picture. My daughter is already tramatized by WW actions with OM. Why on earth would WW think that it would be okay with the kids to live in OM's apartment... Jeezzz she is nuts...
What should I do? We are suppose to work out all the details tonight after work. I need some expert help for our break up meeting tonight.
I think WW should go and leave me the kids. I want her out at this point. Let her take her cloths and make-up and hit the door. However, she wants the kids. I think she wants furnature and probably even our dog. What should I let her have. I told her if I let her have everything, kids, furnature, money, car, etc. and she has OM to meet her needs, why would she ever want me again for anything other than child support and alomony. That's how I see it. I need help putting some rules into play on this separation of hers. Should I get legal in on this and get restraining orders against OM and parents for my kids? Is there still such a thing as legal separation where I get custody. I know the plan A tact is to not create love busters but how fare do let her go?????????HELP

Hi KS,

Check out and implement all of your legal options ASAP. If I were in this situation I would do everything within my power to ensure that she leaves with nothing but her personal items.

This is absolutely un-acceptable and you have to set boundaries immediately.

Dazed- I basically had to do the same thing as KDH. Told WW to get out, she moved in with OM, lasted 4 weeks, asked to come back. Said all right things, NC etc..lasted 3 days left again, now moving into a single wide trailer with OM and OM's son from his first marriage. I love my wife, but she is not the same woman I knew even 2 years ago. Plan b has been very benificial for me and my DD. It's a hard concept to let someone go, however, I wish her the best in the life she has chosen, I will be fine.

dazed- totally unacceptable arrangement. OM should never be around your children. even during visitation etc. You should set your boundries and as Cat said she leaves with her clothes,personal items. but you and the kids are in the home.

UPDATE:
Friday after work I suggested the WW leave by herself. She broke down in tears and said she still loves me and really wants to stay but is scared that we will not work out our problems and nothing will change. I told her if she loved me then she was doing a great job of hiding it. She wanted me to hold her and she proclaimed her love for me. She wishes that we could have made this attempt to connect before she fell for OM. She is scared to leave and never be able to come back to me. She is scared that if she stays nothing will change and she will have missed out on chances with OM. She can not make any descion. After almost two and half hours of this I had to stop and go get DD something to eat. While me and DD was out WW left the house. She did not return until 6AM Saturday. Crying and asking me to hold her. She is so screwed up in the head... OM must really be working her head over big time. I held her and let her cry herself to sleep. Once we had time to talk with out our DD present, I explained that we have to change this life of limbo and no direction. I told her we have to make a couple of choices now so we can stop this cycle of pain that is ruining all of us. 1) Stop seeing him, and give us a chance to fall in love again. 2) You leave the house and not see me at all. Maybe you could then determine if you love me and miss me enough to come home.
See said she changes her mind several time a day. She is becoming physically sick. She is nausus, shaky, can't eat, cant' sleep, constantly minstrating, even passed out at work last Friday. I have constantly told her to stop this torcher and we can work it all out. However, OM is pressuring her so badly. Tells her he loves her and will do anything for her. More promises to hold her back. After another four hours of brutal honest talk about WW, OM, and me, iIt seemed that Saturday she was really to commit to working on us. Then while picking up the hosue she seen my book "surviving an affair". Inside the cover was a print out on "Plan A & Plan B" she took the stuff with her to the bath room and spent about half hour reading. When she came out her mind set was no anger. She thinks that I have been following a plan to get her back. Which is some what true, but obviously she can't tell if I'm genuwine of not now. So she was really touchy and did not want me to talk to her. She set around the house until 4 PM when she finally took a shower. Again we talked about a direction for us to take to stop this limbo of pain. She agreed but again says she can't figure it out. We went over the same thing again. I love you and want so very much for you to come to me with an open heart and mind and say (Let's fall in love again, and rebuild us). However, I have to have all of you heart and mind. And you have to have all of mine as well. She agreed and said she could not do that yet. She left home again around 6PM and returned a lttle after 8PM balling and shaking. She was an emotional wreck. After trying to calm her for a bit, she became sick and nausus again. I asked if she had taken anything. Yes, while at OM's apartment she says she took atleast 10 head ach pills in front of him. I called OM to confirm what the bottle was. He hung up on me. I even left him a message asking for him to please call me and tell me what the pills were. Of course OM cares so much that he did not call back or nothing. I held WW for the rest of the night on the couch to comfort her. She awoke once and said she had to leave. I told her no. She seemed to calm down and go back to sleep. Sunday morning around 6:35 we awoke and I went upstairs to check on my DD. I lay down with her for a bit to make sure she was okay. While upstairs I heard the dog start barking. The bark when some one is at the down. I run down stairs to she WW car pulling off. I quickly got into my car and taking a direct path to OM's apartment I meet her in his parking, As she started to walk towards his door, I asked her to come home. She told me to leave and why are you here. I replied I love you and why are you here. She got into her car and as she pulled away yelled at me, this is why I'm nuts. I quickly returned home. WW has yet to come back. What else was I suppose to do. Obviously he is dangerous to my WW. How keep thinking how can I through her out while she is so mentally and now physically a wreck.
Please Advice...

One the one hand, your wife is confused and hurting over this, which is good. But on the other, she is a classic cake eater. She wants to have you in her back pocket while she pursues OM. I think you are doing great letting her know she has a choice to make. She seems to be one that will wake up with a good Plan B. It is probably too early for Plan B, but you may want to keep it in your mind.

Lastly, I have yet to see rational discussions work with WS. Talking does not seem to do work with them in the end. I believe actions is what bring the WS back into the fold--when they do. So I am not sure what good all the R talks are doing, but who knows.

In any event, you seem to be doing a good job.

UPDATE:
Sunday around 12PM WW called asking to bring lunch for me and DD. I accepted telling her that would be very nice. With in the half hour WW was home and we were eating together all three of us. I made sure that the atmosphere was fun and friendly. All three of us shared a laugh or two and played with our little dog while we ate. Having cheered up my DD she went to the basement to play video games while me and WW talked. While watching tv I directed our talk towards a (plan B) type of agreement. Our plan is WW is to move out of the house for atleast 21 days. I suggested 40, WW wanted 21. Her idea is to move in with OM in his apartment. Because DD knows who he is and where he lives, WW is not to make DD even go over there. Also no contact between OM and DD at all. I suggested that WW could pick up the kids and they could go do things together with out OM and me. I told her I would never try to keep her away from our kids and I would never used them against her. Our descions affect our kids but it is between you and me. She agreed. I ask why she thought she had to move right in with OM. She said she just needs to know about him. If there is really anything there. She claims she is not going to tell OM of her self imposed time limit. Because she agrees that he maybe just pretending about who he really is. His complete lack of will to protect her during several dangerous situations has really stressed her thinking about just how much he cares about her. The time I aproached them at his apartment and he hid in the corner and told her to deal with me while he called the cops. The time I caught them at lowes parking lot and he speed away leaving her to deal with me, and finally when she took 10 head ach pills in front of him and he let her leave. Then I called him and asked for his help to tell us what she took and he never replied or called back came over or nothing. These events has her now thinking that the major character flaws that OM soon to be EXW was reporting may be true. Sorry about the rambling. So, she agreed that if she came home to me in the 21 days or less that she would take all the extreme measures to break away from him and give us a chance to fall in love again. No surprise lawyers, bills, or bank account tricks. She started crying and said she could never be that kind of person to just be using time to attack me. She is very worried that I will not take her back when she is ready to come home. We held each other and shared some laughs as we spoke about good times while making our plan. I again re-assured her that I would give her all of my heart to make her happy if she would do the same for me. I'm not pretending, and over time she will see that the changes I have began to make are not just a game to get her back but the life I choose to live. I think she is finally starting to realize that I an for real. I decided that I would take our DD out of the house for some time to allow WW to get her personal items and go. This way it was less dramic on me and our DD. Before I left I told WW that I did not think we should have any contact between us that way she would know if she really missed me or not. She really did not want that. I told her that she needed to know about the OM and know if she could live with out me. We should needed time apart. She asked if she could call and or email me if she needed. I said I would just have to see what is best for me. It may be to painful to one way or the other. Yes, I waffled on the complete abstance of a Plan B. Because I'm not sure if severing all contact is the right thing. Isn't that what WW and OM is suppose to do and in thee or six weeks the withdraw subsides. So, how is taking the same approach going to bring my wife home to me? I understand the missing me part, but i need help seeing the picture I guess.
The WW called at 8:45PM last night from OM cell phone and did not even block the number! WOW... She wanted to make sure the kids were okay and that I had feed them, helped them with home work, got grocerys and so on. I was breif with her and gave the phone to my DD to talk to her. When we got home I explained the plan to our DD. I asked that she be loving and open with mom and atleast talk to her. She asked about asking mom to come home. I told her that is fine but understand that mom is not staying about home because of dad and mom stuff, not because of you. DD felt bad and wanted to tell WW good night at 9:45 PM so I dialed OM cell phone and she answered. I did not talk just let our DD say good night and she loves mom very much.
This morning at 8:15 AM I recieved this email from WW.
well-
i think this strategy u have
must work. i cried myself
to sleep about 3. i miss u
& everyone.
21 days-yea right.
tt ya later.

I did not reply so she called looking for me at 9:30 AM. Because of 15 minutes of sleep last night myself, I called in to work this morning to take the morning off. She called the house and we spoke for a couple of minutes. She was disappointed that I did not go to work. I guess I just added to her guilt. She said she was sorry and asked if i needed her to call back. I said thanks for calling to check on me but, I'll be okay. Just need some time to rest and clear my head.
So, do I go straight into the plan B no contact, or very limited contact. I don't want her in and out of my life while with OM and she knows that. But I'm still on her mind while with OM, there situation will just as stressed as he made it for me and WW. This time the tables are turned on OM and he now has to deal with my WW sad and depressed. No more insulated bubble of fun and fantasy, now its reality and stress. I could use some more advise. Also thanks to all of you for your help thus far.

Well, I think you need to do a little research and look at the outcomes of people here who have tried doing a plan B with "modifications".....there is probably no surer bet of the results that you are going to get....do you want to even hear the numbers?

I am admittedly not an expert and would not even classify myself as a "novice" when it comes to these MB plans, but I think you should either do a PLAN B or don't do a PLAN B....it is my observation, that those with the most successful outcomes of PLAN B (namely marital recovery initiation) are the ones who do it by the book.....there are no short cuts here....YOu seem like you are not ready for PLAN B...truthfully, I think you are bordering on "doormat" behavior, but that is just my personal opinion, and I have been wrong before here.

DO IT RIGHT, OR DON'T DO IT AT ALL....THE PROOF IS HERE OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU MODIFY THE PLANS....

For the principles to work, you have to work the principles.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dazed~

This situation is NOT going to do what you want it to...if you remain in contact with your WW, she will not miss you-no matter what she says-I said the same thing to my H when I was planning my trip to go and be with the OM in a hotel for two weeks...the translation here is..."Let me continue my affair uninterupted...don't cause any trouble, I'll say ANYTHING that you want to hear just so you'll back off"...If you are going to Plan B, then you must go 100%...I believe it was Pepperband that explained it so well when she said that a "modified Plan B" is useless in the same way a "modified marriage" is...it's all or nothing...You've just told her that she has 21 days to go live in fantasyland without repercussion...this makes you a doormat...Women do not respect doormats...do you understand what I am saying?

I think that you have two choices here...

1. You tell her that upon reflection, this situation is wrong, you've changed your mind, and it is unacceptable to you...then, you do what you can to bust up the affair, by exposing it at work...

or

2. You go completely, wholeheartedly into Plan B...NO CONTACT, NO SUPPORT, PERIOD...You Go Dark, VERY VERY DARK...

I would like to see what others think here...I defer to the experts on this one...

Mrs. Wondering

I think you needed to expose before going to Plan B.
How lovely do you think Fantasy-land would be with no income?
And both of them stressing out at each other for losing their jobs?

Exposure still needs to happen.

I would also go forward with Plan B -- but take away the safety net. Tell her that upon reflection, you don't think you can handle the pain of knowing she is with OM every nite. You need to break from her completely until she decides to end the affair.

And what else will she need to do to make you feel safe? Live on her own for a while? Get counseling? Have no contact with OM? Prove herself to you somehow? Start thinking about your boundries...

The Wonderings and Lexxxy have it right. Expose and then off to Plan B land.

You are enabling and even condoning adultery by your wife. YOU are fascilitating it. And worse yet, your daughter now believes that this is acceptable because both of you have agreed to it.

You are the man here...you are the husband. Time to take charge and lead. Your wife is ripe for Plan B. Expose like crazy, let her know that after thinking about this, you cant believe that yo uagreed to this...that it must have been because you love her so much. But she is to break it off with OM and come home to work o nthe marriage. If after exposure and talkingto her, she does not do this...then you send her a Plan B letter and go dark.

You are helping your wife commit adultery. Stop it. Read more on Plan B, because by your post above, I can see that you dont fully understand it. As the Plan B Czar on here, I can tell you that your wife is ripe for Plan B.

Your choice. Your wife NEEDS you to do the right thing, as she is unable to do so. Please do not fail her.

In His arms.

lemonman, woundering, lexxy, mortarman---
You all are right. I should not have aloud her to go to his apartment. Yes, knowing she was with him last night really killed me. I did not sleep a minute it was so painful.
Tonight I will give her two options. 1) Come back home and work on our marriage and family. or 2) While with OM you will have No contact with me what so ever (plan B) 100%. I agree, that i need to make her know that as a result of her choice of the affair with OM, that I'm off limits to her. She can not benefit from any part of me until she proves her self by ending it with him.
I guess i'm stupid. You are right. My WW can not make a descion for herself, and I'm failing her again.

D&C;
One very good outcome of the way this happened is that you have the girls with you. They should in no way be taken from their home and think that this situation is normal.

Be prepared for her to choose #2 but still try to have #1 as an option later.

Right now she thinks there is no limit for you. She thinks she can take a vacation from your marriage, and you will be right there waiting for her. Take away that safety net. Let her FEEL and KNOW that her actions could have the very real consequence of losing you.

Tonight -- just tell her that last night was the most painful of your life, and you cannot continue with the 21 day plan that you agreed to. You've re-thought it, and although there is a slight chance left for your marriage; you must have no contact with her until she ends he affair with OM.

And -- expose. There is nothing like stress/anxiety/financial concerns to bust up a fantasy!!!

Get a good seat for the fireworks -- and stay in the dark.

Your not stupid. You love your wife and you want to save your marriage. It's not like we get married and plan for this disaster. So your not an expert on how to save a failing marriage. Join the crowd. It's ok don't beat yourself up. I failed in my attempts big time. Now my ww is gone and moving her stuff out to sell the house(I can't pay mtg on my own). your ww is being selfish and will use any manipulation tactic against you. She knows you love her and want to save the marriage and will put up with endless crap out of deperation. I did the same. None of this is your fault. no one ever siad you had to be a perfect husband or your wife has the right to destroy you. I agree with everyone have more backbone. My ww wants to legally seperate but have me do all the work for her. I finally stood up to her. she is still going through with the ww type plan but at least I can focus on taking care of me instead of trying to meet the needs of someone who quite frankly doesn't deserve to have needs met.
Hang in there.

dazed- my WW did the same thing, went to OM's house for 5 weeks, i tried to plan A for the first week, after that went dark. She called and begged to come home, false recovery, she left again, now shacking up with OM again, went dark again , proboly permanent. It's scary at first as you worry bout kids, money Etc, but you soon develop a routine and before you know it, it's 3 weeks later.Plan B removes all the drama and all the work you do, without anyhting in return.

Thanks for the support to you all:
The way I see it, plan b serves two purposes. 1) It establishes a boundry that forces WS to make a choice. 2) It serves as a primer for permanent separation provided WS chooses not to come back. That is the part that scares me.
I want to thank each and everyone of you for all your help, and I want to send a prayer out to all of you.
Is there any specific people or posts on here that has personally saved there marriage with a plan B approach. I would really like some to research some success stories so i can learn more about the entire process of D-day to recovery.
It's so frustrating not being able to talk to any one. The several day wait and $185 to talk to Dr. Harley is tough to take. This all seems so overwelming to me. I wish I had some one to help coach me every step of the way. My WW was my best friend and the only one I could confid in. I feel lost right now and I don't have that anchor there to help me.
Thanks again everyone.
I'm writing up a Plan B letter. Will probably post for you all to review.

Wwwoooooaaah!! slow down a sec. Dont go charging off to your wife and make demands without a plan. YOU must have a plan because her plans add up to 21-day trial adultery sleep overs. So, you have to have a plan.

Write a Plan B letter NOW and get it up here. If you cant find one on here, ask for help and we will post a sample one. Then take it and meld it to your situation.

THEN>>>>>

Call your wife and tell her what they said above. That you re-thought this and this cannot go on. That you want to save the marriage and this will only kill it. Be open and honest with her. Be a viable choice...dont dump on her. Then let her make her decision.

As was said above, be prepared for her to choose OM. That is why you go with Plan B letter and have it ready before you do this. Then when she chooses OM, you give her Plan B letter and go dark. look at gramn's thread on the last three pages of it. he is going thru his Plan B with kids right now. It is hard, but doable.

My wife left also and I had the kids. They were right above that it is an added advantage that the kids are with you. Do not let her change that. Their home is where they are at. Mommy decided to leave it.

I think your wife is a very good canadidate for Plan B. But you have to first finish a short Plan A. that includes exposure and with telling your wife what you expect her to do. And, with you NOT condoning any immoral behavior...as you have done so far.

Stop beating yourself up. We have all made the same mistakes. Just stand up, dust yourself off and move forward.

In His arms.

Mortarman-
So you are saying I should tell her to stop this 21 day test drive and come home. Then if she says no, I hand her the plan b letter? That is what i was thinking.

yes if she wants to continue the 21 day trial run, which my wife tried also, give her the letter. I bet she will choose to be with OM, so be forewarned. You can get through plan B. I too considered my WW my best friend, I never went a day without speaking to her while one of us were at work. The thought of not speaking to her I thought was going to be difficult. On the contrary, I am doing this for me and my DD. HAng in there

Yes!!! But have your plan together. How to deal with the kids issue, how to deal with her when she tries to ignore your no contact deal. look at Gramn's thread. his wife is only 5 days into Plan B and already screaming that she is calling her attorney because he wont talk to her. This stuff would be damn funny if it werent so serious!!

In His arms.

I never did a plan B...things ended prior to that.

But, my wife DID want to do that 'test drive' thing too. She begged me at one point to 'let her go and live with OM...and if it didn't work out she'd come back to me'!!

I refused to entertain the concept. I told her how much I loved her, but that if she decided that she would go live with him, that there was no way that I would consider reconciling our marriage...OR our friendship.

I would not condone her 'testing' her relationship with someone else while we were married.

We seperated in house post d-day...and she made the comment that she didn't know WHO she wanted to be with, him or me. I continued to let her know that if she chose him, it was a one way ticket...because I would go ahead and file for divorce if she left to be with him, or if he came to be with her (she'd had an EA...hadn't had the opportunity yet to be with him physically).

Realize that during all of this, I was still showing her how much I loved her and cared for her. I did a LOT to help her cope with her depression while dealing with the withdrawl from the end of her EA. I kept myself a very viable choice for her...but I also made it clear that there would SOON be a time when she HAD to choose...and that the moment she chose him it would have been the end of our relationship.

I'm not saying that you need to do the same...but perhaps this can show you a little more clearly about what is meant in Plan A...that you're doing your best to end the affair AND make yourself the right choice for your WW to come home to.

I hope that this helps...and perhaps gives a little hope too. Because my situation DID work out...we're nearly a year and a half in recovery now.

Owl-Thanks so much. Your deal sounds alot like mine. My WW adimately claims that they have not been physical only emotional. I want to believe that. i do kinda do believe it because of my wifes prior sexual difficulties. However, we havent played in six months so who knows. Anyway, I know she is going to loose it tonight when I recall the test drive idea. But, I have to. I just can not live with myself. I think my odds on her coming home to stay are very slim. I think she may stick to her idea, and i understand that is why plan b is the next step. I have not got my letter ready, however i can not tolerate another night with her in his apartment. If i had a dollar for everytime i have heard i don't know what to do or who she wanted to be with. She wants to see if the grass is as green as he makes it look. I will not have no letter ready by tonight, so I will just have to explain my thoughts and wishes and go with it. Then depending on her actions take the next step.

No. Just do the deal with telling her she must end the affair and come home. If she says no, then end the conversation. Wait until tomorrow and get the PBL done and then send to her. Dont explain Plan B. Give her the letter so she will have it to explain to her.

There is a reason to do it all this way. Follow the steps.

In His arms.

edited, "just because".

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MM is dead on the money (as always). NEVER give your WW your battle plan!

Always try to have planned out what you're going to do...but do NOT let your WW know what you've got planned. A large part of this is in HAVING a plan that she doesn't know. It helps to jolt her out of her complacency...but if she knows what you're going to do, she'll plan accordingly...AGAINST it. Because it will be seen as 'manipulative', 'controlling'...whatever.

Write the Plan B letter NOW if at all possible. You don't have to give it to her now...but you can get it ready in case you have to later.

Tonite, tell her that you're not willing to share her with another man. Physically or emotionally. That you love her with all of your heart, and that you're not willing to give up on that and let her go spend time with someone else...she's too special for that. You're not going to give up on your marriage...and letting her 'go test drive' with him is doing exactly that. Tell her that you are FIGHTING for her, and that she's worth that fight to you. But that you're not going to just sit there and calmly accept her running off to OM...it's wrong, it is hurtful to you in the extreme, and it's contrary to what the two of you need to do in order to rebuild your marriage.

Good luck my friend.

Dazed~

One way to possibly prevent yourself from having to go to Plan B is by finishing out Plan A...which means EXPOSURE...My gut tells me that if you call that HR director tomorrow morning with the information that their Controller (OM) is having an affair with one of his subordinates, which is one of their MARRIED receptionists (your wife), you may very well blow this affair to bits by dinnertime tomorrow night...it's certainly worth a shot...If the Affair doesn't end based on this, it will certainly put pressure on it...Once you go to Plan B, your chance for exposure is really over, because then it just looks vindictive rather than it being a move to try and save your marriage...Remember, your marriage can survive your wife's anger, but it cannot survive an ongoing affair...

Will you expose the affair at work tomorrow? We can help you with what to say, just ask...

Mrs. Wondering

I have always loved that line...........so true.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Update:
WW called me back a couple of minutes ago. I asked if she had any thoughts about the 21 day plan. She asked that i not beat around the bush.
I said I have been doing some thinking today about the plan. Last night was the most painful night of my life and I cannot allow you to continue. The thoughts of you at his apartment living with him is for any time I can not condon. I think that this plan will only kill our marriage not strenghten it. I want you to come home tonight. There was silence for a couple of seconds and she ask when I would be there. I said shortly after five, and she replied; I'll talk to you later, bye. Considering she works with OM, I bet they will have to meet and discuss prior to her communicating with me. I guess I'll see what happens. I will continue plan A logic until I can get the B letter done of which I'm drafting right now. Probably be done tonight, unless god blesses me and she comes home tonight.

Dazed,

What about exposure to the HR Director? Did you read my last post to you? We may have been posting at the same time...

Mrs. Wondering

Wounderings: YES PLEASE HELP... The HR director is also a married woman and mother of three. I'm hoping that will help me.
PLEASE ADVISE...
By the way.. OM is not her boss. She reports to some one else. OM is just financial accounts receivable. Sorry i was wrong about his status when I first reported.

Dazed,

You at one time stated that your W and OM were taking their "sick days" and "vacation days" together, and then just calling in sick once they had used up those...do you have those dates handy? Remember, that it's okay if your W loses her job...1. that gets no contact under way and 2. she can get another job, but she can't get another you...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W
No i do not have them handy. I will have to some home work. (Unoffically the HR assistant that keeps attendance told me about her and his shared time). Plus he moved his lunch time slot to match hers. I don't want to give up how I obtained the attendance info but, I believe the HR assist to be right. She gave me examples that did make since.

Please also realize that even if you are so called "blessed by God" and she comes home tonight, your issues are far from over......if she continues the affair, you are just talking about geography.....My cynical guess, is she is talking to the OM RIGHT NOW about "putting" the move off, because she feels you will need a little more placating.....they almost had you blessing the 21 day affair, perhaps a little more time and you are in for a serious struggle here.

You should be blowing the top of this affair with MAJOR EXPOSURE........if you aren't doing this, then how can you say you are doing "plan A logic"?

Avoiding the Plan B in your situation is like avoiding the dentist for a cavity that needs "fixing"...you can prolong and aviod it in a myriad of ways, but eventually, you fix the cavity or it "rots" out....I have a bad feeling you are looking for ways to rationalize doing what hurts, but is right.

Remember though, it is your life, and you live with the consequences of your actions, not us, so in the end, you do what you feel you gotta do.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dazed,

I have been reading along, letting the folks here give you some very good advice, little of which you have taken.

Dazed, this is really really easy. Either you fight to the death for your marriage or you don't. Right now you are NOT fighting for you marriage. Expose the A to HR, your W is a lousy employee and should be fired. OM, should NEVER be in a position of responsibility and should be fired.

YOU should have already seen a lawyer and gotten your ducks in a row for filing and obtaining custody. OM's W will upon her divorce provide evidence to his behavior and his non-suitability to be around children much less YOURS.

You are messing around and you are hurting your children. Get the darned plan B letter ready and post it, and then go to it. Dr. Harley states that the best time to go to plan B is when the WS is on the fence and your spouse is ON THE DARNED FENCE. Let OM meet her needs, abuse her, brain wash her, cost her her job, and her children, PLUS lose you.

It is what HE wants and it is WHAT SHE wants. It won't be what she wants for long, but it is now. So make life easy for her, and go to plan B, but see a lawyer about abandonment of the home, of her bring OM around the children, and filing.

Son you have done a crappy job of preparing to fight for your marriage, and hence you are reacting to everything WW says. THERE is NOTHING you WW can say that should affect you because everything coming out of her mouth is lies, even the parts you LIKE to hear. You do know how to tell she is lying don't you??? Everytime her lips move she is lying right now.

STep back, take great care of your children, protect yourself legally, and expose. That man is afraid of you and he should be. Your W is worried and she should be. Frankly, until she changes this is NOT a woman you want around your children or in your life, so step back, go to a good plan B, get with a lawyer, and DO NOT MAKE HER COME HOME. She is not ready.

Young man, this stuff is NOT rocket science. It is about fear and greed. She fears losing something and she is greedy about her happiness. Until she sorts out these things, she will act in the absolutely classical manner.

Trust me I have been reading and posting her for over 6.5 years and your W is text book. So quit reacting, and start acting in the best benefit of your children, and yourself. Let your W make up her own mind.

You have the advantage right now and you should press it. There are no half winners in this battle. Your marriage will either survive when she see the light or it will not. I don't know what Steve Harley has told you but one thing you mentioned is quit smothering her, and I would suggest in light of what she is doing now that means, plan B.

You see there is NO HOPE for you marriage if you lose your love for her, and you will quickly if you stay in the middle of the drama. Get outof the drama focus on the kids and yourself, and keep her out of your life until the A is over.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Dazed,

Okay, try to get those dates organized if you can...When you call the HR director, tell her simply that your wife is having an affair with Mr. Accounts Receivable, your marriage is very important to you, you love your wife and want to do everything you can to save your marriage. You can then say something like, "I know that as the HR Director your greatest interests lie in what is most beneficial to the company. Because of this, I felt it should be brought to your attention that my wife and MR. AR are taking not only vacation days, sick days, and long lunches together, but additional unexcused time off as well to further their affair. I'm sure you'll agree that that is a detriment to the daily operations of the company as well as it's long term benefit. I'm certain that this is unacceptable behavior to you, professionally and personally. Mrs. HR, what action will your company be taking in it's opposition to this situation?"

I'm certainly no expert, and would really like for others to chime in here about exactly how Dazed should word his interaction with the HR Department...

Mrs. W

Brutal honesty--- Okay, I want to do what is right. Obviously I love my wife. Or atleast what she was.
Tomorrow I will expose the A to there HR as everyone suggest I do.
I have talked to the best divorce lawyer in town. He claims I should file now and not wait. However, I believe she will not file first because that requires a descion. Now if I really piss her off well then, yeah she may. In Kansas ther is no legal separation unless filing for divorce whick give the first one in the pool all the temporary custody and assets.
I have not believed I'm to that point. Maybe I'm just in denile. Maybe that would wake her up to the seriousness of her actions. Please advise....
I'm working on the Plan B letter now. It will be done tonight and i will post for your review.
I will confirm my request for her to break it off with OM and come home. Presented similar to what others have suggested.
At this ten seconds what else can i do??????????????

Short answer NOTHING.

That is the point. You don't have to react to her, and you should NOT react to her. I don't mean to imply that you should be cruel to her, but frankly if the only way to protect your children from OM is to file first...do it. She has decided to leave the home and in most states that is abandonment.

Can she trust you? Well, you would think that the actions we are discussing would indicate NO. However, what you are confused about and she will NOT see is that your job is NOT to protect her while she is in an affair. IF OM is who she wants HE should be protecting her, and he is not.

The woman is out of luck right now. She has a man that loves her, but you cannot protect her from the consequences of her actions and every time she pops off about how you have made her angry, you look her in the eye and tell her quietly but firmly: "I cannot protect you from the consequences of your actions, and I WILL do whatever I can to save this marriage and that requires that I destroy this affair if I can." You repeat this calmly and precisely every time she pops off about this. You then end the tirade by walking away.

You can tell her you love her, you can even act loving when you see her, but there should be NO misunderstanding in her mind that you will not tolerate your marriage being destroyed by OM and you will do your best to show her you want her in your marriage. So if she does not want to get hit with schrapenal (sp) she should NOT stand too close to OM.

I would strongly suggest you consider filing if it means protecting your children. Talk with your lawyer. A divorce can be suspended, it can be terminated, even remarriage is possible, but you cannot UNHARM you children.

Focus on them, your W has her own decisions to make. Plus you know that OM losing his job will not hurt OM's W as she is the real bread winner.

God Bless,

JL

JL~

Would you please read my above post to Dazed regarding what to say to the HR Director and revise or completely change it? Your wisdom is always appreciated...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. W,

I don't see anything wrong with what you are suggesting. HR will not be able to help the marriage, but not working together might and that is the point isn't it. As for her living with OM, which she is, it won't matter if she works with him or not will it?

So while I still think that telling HR is a good idea, Dazed needs to be really focused on why he is telling, because she will blow up big time and so will OM. Getting to OM while very satisfying will NOT save the marriage, but it will end their work association.

There are consequences to these things. There is another thought and that is her job performance is so poor that she might get fired anyway. If that happens and Dazed has not exposed then he is "sort" of out of the line of fire, but he will get blamed anyway. He already is being blamed.

My take on this is if he is going to do it, he needs to stand firm on why, and not back down from W when she goes ballistic. As for OM, who cares what happens to him?

Dazed needs to speak with his lawyer again in my opinion and then go to plan B more than anything else. Further exposure will sure burst a few more bubbles in La La land. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

Well, you know something? I get on here a lot and I think i make a difference. And maybe sometimes get a big head. And then I come and read my mentor's posts (Just Learning) and remember how much I have to learn...and how much I have learned from him.

Dazed, listen very closely. Do EXACTLY what JL is telling you. Why do I say this? Because this is the same things he gave me several years ago in the middle of my mess.

I wouldnt listen. I had the kids, wife moved out. JL was telling me that I probably should file to protect the kids. And go to Plan B.

Well, it took me three months of ****** until I finally gave in and filed...and issued my Plan B letter. And guess what? Almost 5 weeks to the day that I gave my wife the PBL...she was at my house asking to reconcile.

Do you hear that? I went thru 3 months of ******...and it was my own fault. I was scared. I wouldnt listen. Thought JL and others did not know what they were talking about. My wife was different from others, you see. He couldnt possibly know what she would need, could he?

But come to find out...she was EXACTLY like ever other WS. The issue as I have come to believe is not the WS...but the BS. That if left to the WS...the marriage is gone. But if the BS is a man or woman of conviction, if they are willing to do WHATEVER it takes...even stuff that hurts...even stuff that doesnt feel right...in order to save the marriage, that most of these marriages will be saved.

Many marriages that go thru adultery dont make it because of the BS!! Because they dont have the guts or the knowledge or both. Dazed, you are in a great place. You are surrounded by people who have walked where you are...who know the way and are sending back the map. But will you listen? Will you trust God and trust this.

As I said, if you want your wife back from the alien, then you will do EXACTLY as JL has said. And stay here for more help and to vent as needed.

-------------------

And for JL...as always, I am amazed at the things you say. What you wrote here was EXACTLY what he needed to hear. I continue to learn from you.

In His arms.

Thanks to you all so much. Yes, i want my wife back more than words can say. Your help is greatly appreciated. Maybe I'm so scared of making the big mistake that I can't stop making all the little ones and not really doing what needs done.
As if you had not already guest. Wife never came home or called. Yeah, her and OM are probably setting in his apartment right now planning. I'm going to go spend the rest of my evening with my kids. Once there in bed for the evening I will work on my plan and my letter. I suspect that wife will still atleast call if not stop by and tell me what she wants. I will stand my ground and let her know what i think about her living with OM. Most likely if she contacts me she will not want to her my words so she will not be staying home to reconsile.
Be back soon.
thanks again
dazed.

Dazed,

To recap what the others have said and to help you plan, the following are steps you should take--tomorrow!

1. Expose the A at their work
2. See your lawyer and file ASAP.
3. Give her the Plan B letter
4. Go Dark.

Tonight, if you can, figure out how you will workout the logistics of visitations with your WW.

Dazed,

This a PBL written by Graycloud. It is a very good one. You may want to use it and adapt it to your situation.


__________________________
Dear ________,

In all our years together, I never imagined us reaching the point where we are today. I love you more than anything else in this world, and I want to remain married to you. I am sorry for the things I did - and did not do - that helped make your infidelity possible. I look forward to a future where the parts of me that made it easier for you to turn away are gone forever.

I have told you I will always be there for you, and that I mean to forgive you. But your affair continues to inflict great pain on me. (Maybe add, "Your continued reluctance to work on our marriage inflicts grain pain on me", or something to that effect.) This pain challenges my ability to forgive you, and will eventually destroy my love for you. I know that you are also hurting and I would give anything to help ease your pain. I truly believe in forgiveness, healing, and redemption for both of us. But to preserve my love, I cannot see or talk to you any longer. If you end your affair and (maybe just omit this) choose to discuss returning to a life with me, I will welcome the discussion. Until that time, it will not be possible for me to have any contact with you.

Please respect my decision. If you need to communicate with me, please find someone in your family to pass your messages along. If there is anything you still need from the house, have this person contact me, and I will leave the items in the garage for you to pick up. I will continue to cover my part in our shared expenses as I have throughout the summer, and I trust you will do the same.

-------, my wish is for us to create a new relationship, to build a new life where each thing we do, every day of our lives, makes us both happy as it once did. My willingness to do this in the worst of times is part of the promise I made to you ___ years ago. And I do still believe in you. But right now, letting you go and distancing myself from your actions is the only way I can protect my heart. I don't do this in anger. I need to restore some normalcy to my life so that I can remain healthy, find some measure of peace, and continue to grow as a human being.

Remember me, I'm the one who loves you.

Dazed~

That is a great letter that UVA posted for you...what you need to be CRYSTAL CLEAR about is how things will be handled regarding your two girls-when she will be allowed to see them/pick them up-how OM is NOT to see them, etc...everything must be defined to the letter, because you need to make sure that you have absolutely NO CONTACT with your WW during Plan B...also, make sure that you let her know that after her stuff is out, there will be no more coming in and out of the house...I often read Melody's posts about women trying to get their house "fix", because the house is often what a woman takes pride in...she needs to feel the full weight of the consequences of her decisions, as others have pointed out...in Plan B, you and that house do not exist for her!!!

Mrs. Wondering

Update:
WW called me at 12:15AM from OM's cell phone. She sounded near a sleep and confirmed OM could here her response. I can only guess where they were at.
I informed her that I could not accept OM having a 21 day test drive of my wife. You as my wife, I'm failing to protect you. Out of my love for you I was willing to try your idea, but after seeing how much pain this inflects I can not do this. Things will not be the same for me as a result of living with him. I don't see how this will ever strengthen our marriage, but only tear it apart. You know this type of arrangement should never happen. This arrangement should not ever happen but if it does it should not be while two people are still married. Does this make any since to you WW? (Yes). Can you tell me how both of us benefit from this arrangement? Do you think both us can? (i dont no) I said do you have any idea how hard this is for me knowing you are living with him? This is taking a far bigger toll on my love for you than I could have even imagined. I'm sure he must be right beside you so I will leave it at that.
I'm now working on plan b.

Very good. Now get your waterfowl coaxially aligned.

In His arms.

Dazed- you will feel better in plan B , believe it or not. Day to day living without all the drama, and you and especially your children will benifit greatly from not having it flaunted in your face.
Stay strong.

Dazed, I also would strongly recommend this. No warning, no threats, no anger, just do it. Talk with atty, ask that there be something about kids having no contact with OM, get it written into your filing. If you strike quickly you'll use his address as your wife's address. In most states, there are three ways to get her the paperwork. Have her served, so that she feels the full consequence. Due to the current circumstances you may be able to get the 1st hearing set into motion very quickly, not only will this give you a leg up in the divorce it will be the ultimate in bursting her fantasy bubble.

I believe you said your kids were around 12. I would recommend getting them into some type of therapy TODAY, not tomorrow, TODAY. Do this for many reasons. First and foremost, for their well-being and to get help dealing with this craziness and second the therapist can write a letter to or testify in court.

I've often heard it said that who files first doesn't matter but I've been through the courts in Kansas and it does matter, IMVHO. It sets offense and defense. With the courts changing roles on cival cases, offense is definately the place to be.

Update:
WW has emailed and called me this morning. I did not pick up or respond. WW left messages that she is coming home tonight after work. No sincerity, obviously I'm not planning on her willing to reconsile. Not sure if she is even planning on staying.
So do i allow her back in the house at any level or at this point keep her out if reconsile is not her motive. I would say that she is just returning to calm me down and buy some time. Either way it looks like Plan B. I have the letter in rough draft. I will post today for review. My lawyer is ready to spring as soon as i so go.
Please advise....

Dazed~

What's going on with...


Human Resources Exposure?


Plan B Letter?


Appointment with Attorney?


Keep us apprised...


Mrs. Wondering

Dazed~

We were posting at the same time...Go forth with Human Resources Exposure and see what happens from there...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. W
I had a company meeting all morning. So, I have not called WW HR yet. Yes, I will today for sure.
Plan B letter is being type set right now.
Attorney only needs me to sign a couple papers and give him more money to file.
Yes, I'm scared. Yes, I want to fight to the death for my wife and family. Do I want to turn this into a death match. (NO). At this point I have to place all my future on advise from a message board. I do have another phone call set up with Steve Harley tomorrow morning. I'm thinking I will finish exposure to there HR today. Finish my plan b letter. send it to Steve for review and take his advise on my next step. Does that sound like an acceptable plan?

Dazed~

That sounds just fine...Call HR RIGHT NOW...There's no time like the present...get the ball rolling so we know what's next...

Relying on people here is a good thing, we've all been there in some form or another, who better to help you? I truly believe that God works miracles on this forum-Marriage is God's Institution, Marriage Builders promotes and offers help in maintaining that institution...I believe God is very present here...Trust God Dazed, you're doing good...

Mrs. W

Excellent Plan of action Dazed!

Call HR immediately. Use the script UVA gave you.

She's stringing you along with the "coming home tonight" stuff, just like she did with the "calling" you last night.
Trying to buy more time with OM.

(you made a comment about not thinking this was a physical affair..<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />..ummmm, I would bet my children on it.)

Dazed- I can gurantee that it has gone PA. My Ww said the same things,etc. When she confessed, she couldn't even tell me the truth then, it was weeks after d-day that I found out the depths of their PA.

I decided to reply to her email; "I'm coming home after work". My reply: (what are your intentions). There has been no comment back.
As fot the PA part. I know you are right, i just really want to believe her. On d-day she denied everything, but has slowly told me more about him and there relationship. Obviously we have not had sex since march. Until then we never went more than a month with out it. WW started buying new panties in July. Skimpy kind. Also, when she found my notes i made about his character flaws during phone call with OM soon to be EXW. She was willing to talk about it and defend him until the sex subject came up. When I pointed out all his sick expectations she did not want to talk about it. When I pointed what his EXW had to endure; porn, toys, kink, pain, oral obsession, selfish sick basturd stuff she ended the conversation. My wife was molested when she was 10 and date raped at 16. She has always had major sexual restrictions. This is one of our problem areas that we would have to resolve. OM's soon tobe EXW told me that WW actually called to ask if the sex stuff was true because that is a major issue with her. I dont know. It don't matter. Only thing that matters is what I do going forward. Can't change the past, only learn from it. Oh check this out another email from WW;
OH MY GOD READ THIS----------
well-
your guilt tripping is working.
if i dont kill myself b 4
5pm-i guess i will come home.
i know all u r concerned about is
making yourself happy-so whether it's what i really
want or not-it's always about u,
i am sorry u have been sad b cuz
of me-and your overwhelming guilt towards me is
killing me. so -if i have to go on living like i have so unhappy just
to make someone else happy (U) well then by all means-
lets just make u happy. please do not respond to me while
I am at work. i am upset enough & my head is killing
me. u can just lock me up at home after 5.
let my fun begin.
god I cant wait.

As far as her email goes--SO? shes just trying to shift blame to you. My WW actually said to my Dd one time
ww--"Can't I be happy?"
DD-- whatever.....

They are only thinking for themselves...

Yeah, she is on drugs (OM). I recalled fantasy island. I knew I was going to be bad guy. So, tonight. Do I let her back knowing she has no intent on reconsile. Or do I say not until you are ready to reconsile. I only told her i was backing out on my part of the 21 day plan. I did not demand she come home. Only suggested she come home to reconsile. Not get into a cage or cell. Frankly, i dont want her home now. If she wants to come home and blast on me and try to make her sick love affair seem like its my fault. I think I should just confirm to her that her actions are not approved by me and I can not set back and condon her affair any longer. This does not mean getting locked into a cage or cell. I think if she wants to bring that attitude home, let her take it to OM's anyway. Do you think i should not allow in tonight...please advise..

personally, I wouldn't, and I didn't. She will try to "push your buttons", bait you into an arguement in order to reaffirm to her that this is why shes with om etc..And then she will go running into the waiting arms of OM. Let him deal with ehr crap.

Dazed~

Once you expose at work, it MAY change things dramatically...


EITHER,


1. She won't want to come home, cause she'll be so mad...


OR


2. The fantasyland bubble will have burst and her attitude could do a 180-(doubtful, but you never know)


It's hard to advise you on Plan B until we know the full effect of Plan A...Gotta follow through on that...



Mrs. Wondering

Thw Wonderings are correct. You must finish Plan A before we know where things will go. Now, if you wife is coming home AND is going to end things with the OM, then you may think about waiting until tomorrow to expose. Then, at 5pm tonight, you sit down with this lady and explain to her that:

1. This is about both of you and both of you getting what you need out of this marriage.

2. She must agree to NC with the OM forever, and write a NC that you will look over and send to OM (you can get a sample one on here and give her the sample so she understands what it must say and what it must not say).

3. The two of you must go to a pro-marriage counselor immediately. The best thing would be if the two of you can start up with Steve Harley. But no matter who it is, they must be a pro-marriage counseloe willign to help lead you two thru the minefield.

4. She must agree to work on this. That means the two of you doing the EN and love buster questionaires. Determien what each others needs are. Try to meet the top 5 all the time. She must do this for you also!!

5. She must leave that job and find a job where she is not near the OM. This is non-negotiable.

You see, if you do not lay these things down i nfront of her, then this "I'll come home for you" crap will last about a week, and she will be right back with the OM (if she even leaves him). You must make her understand that the only way this will work is if she meets those conditions above. And if she cannot or she gets caught in contact with the OM again...any contact...then you will have to proceed on to the next phase.

So, hold your fire, I think, until she is home tonight. Give her these conditions. If she balks at it or refuses, then you have your answer on exposure and Plan B. If she agree, even if it isnt wholheartedly, then you sir have a lot of work to do because you will have to set all of the ground work to make all of this happen. Dont expect her to call the counselor, or write the NC letter on her own. You help her do these things. Do them together.

In His arms.

I would suggest having a meeting (at a nuetral site) first instead of letting her "move" back home tonight at 5.

No sense in having her schlep all of her belongings back to your house and then have her not agree to your conditions.

Tell her that there are a few things to discuss and suggest a place to meet at 5.

I disagree with waiting on exposure. It needs to be done regardless of her response tonight.

Mortarman-
Thank you for the positive thinking.
I agree with all your points. I already have another appointment with Steve Harley tomorrow morning. I'm sure Steve will be able to provide some help planning my next moves. After all he did spend an hour with her on the phone. He should have some good insight from that.
I'm hoping for the best and preparing for the worst here tonight.

Dazed checking on you....

UPDATE:
It's all bad. She talked to her mom last night for the first time in weeks. Her mom went off on her for OM and her actions. This really pissed of WW.
She blew up went off on my and daughter. Yelling and screaming divorce and all kinds of really hurtful things towards me and DD. She was out of control. I never lost control and actually had to break up WW and DD from fighting. WW was still mad this morning and ranting about our divorce and her signing over her right to our kids to me and all kinds of filth.
I told her over and over that I love her and I care about her and that I'm fighting for our love and marriage.
Steve tells me to continue to hold in the plan A stage. Be the broken record of letting her know that there is a way for us to be happy together. No matter what she says or threatens to do. Continue to tell her that we can be happy together and lets look into what it will take to be happy. If you are not feeling cared for then my job is not done. Let's look into what it will take to be happy. What part of us being happy don't you want?
Steve suggest that hold this posistion right up till she leaves or files. He suggest that I not give in and make it easy for her. Do not be on her side of ideas that separate us. My reply to any of her ideas of ending the marriage or separation should be: I don't believe that is the best way for us to be happy together. We love each other right. What part of us being happy don't you want? I know I can change to be better at caring for you. I'm not going to allow myself to be the same person i was.
"BE A BROKEN RECORD" It's okay to recycle the same message. (Us being happy together).
Steve does not recommend exposure to her HR. He agrees that i will most likely be blown up in the process. He agrees that the best thing is to end her affair. But for stay away from her HR office. Also, suggested i hold on my own filing and plan B. His suggested I focus on keeping both of us in the house. If she is so none descisive that she will most likely not do anything that i will not agree to. Just like the 21 day plan, she asked for my approval before doing it. Steve, thinks she will only try to get me to go along with ideas, probably not act with out my consent. So don't give it to her. Hold your pattern of offering a way to lead us both to happiness.
Okay-while on the phone with Steve WW calls. She apologized for her behavior and that she wants me to know that she loves us. She let her anger take over and she is sorry. Hopes daughter will still love her and want to talk to her.

Dazed,

Not that Steve Harley needs my endorsement, he is the expert, but given your W's response to you, your DD, and family, she is in deep conflict now and this is where you want her. While you may be very uncomfortable, she is REALLY uncomfortable and people don't stay in that position too long.

SH's logic seems excellent, but do get your plan B letter ready just in case. Remember it is a love letter expressing hope, a plan for getting back together, and the potential for a happy marriage.

Hang in there and listen to SH's advice.

God Bless,

JL

MAn sorry to hear this. Maybe she was taking it out on you and DD for exposing to her mom.
My WW and DD got into it also, now WW is trying to text message her and leave voicemails, but DD deleates them. WW will have to wait for DD to go to her, she can't force a relationship. Unfortunately Dd is as stubborn as WW. LOL
HAng in there man and be there for tour DD.

JL-
thanks for your help. I'm sure Steve's logic may have came as a bit of a surprise. I think the main reason for trying to get everything i can out of plan A is so she has a reason to believe in me. Yes, she is having the affair and that is the major affence here and must end. However, the wife is so unhappy with our past marriage, there is just not much there to attract her to come back to me. I neglected my wife very badly. She is a very needy ensecure person. She can not even sleep in a house by herself. Yes, i know this and was so stupid to think she was okay with me being gone. So you see what i did to my wife was the worst case senario. I left a lonely ensecure person that craves conversation, and attention. To her i basically abbandoned her. Because of this she thought I did not love her, want to know her, find her attractive, be her friend and have any interest in her. She is very hurt by this. She is so scared that I will not make good on my promise and just go off and find another reason to not be with her. My plan A effort has only be going on for less than a month. It has been affective to a point. Just not got her ready to buy into me yet. That's why plan B will not have the greatest affect in the world on her. She already thinks she was a single married person, and is so scared to trust me. So you see our marriage had really dried up prior to this affair. We were not functioning as husband and wife should have for so long. With out time to sell her that i will and have become the person she fell in love with and had always wanted, what will she miss about me in plan B. I think that is why SH is so reluctant to suggest plan B.
JL I welcome all your help. Thanks for the harsh reality blast the other day. I needed it after agreeing to the 21 day plan of sin.

Mrs. W,-JL,-Mortarman, and other:
I need some help understanding the affects of exposure of the A on WW. Obviously WW thinks the world is now against her. She feels she has lost everything she once had because everyone knows about her affair. Do you think she will just see this as my fault and or eventually realize that her actions caused this not just my mouth?
What do you all think about Steve's advice to hold back and not file and impliment plan B. I think WW only thinks she is at rock bottom. Truth is the fear of really losing me and our DD, home and everything she has not thought that much about yet. I now understand that Plan B is a love letter that provides a plan and rules that she must meet to come back home. This offers a reality check by a taste of actual divorce and a way back to home all at the same time. I agree she has been on the fence. Actually going back and forth between me and him. After the last round of exposure she was way off the fence last night. The only others that i planned on informing was her HR and his parents. According to SH i should back off on that idea.

UPDATE:
attached is our email chat from today.
BS(ME) wrote:
WW- just want you to know that I’m still here for you.
I will be home for lunch today if you anything.
Not asking for nothing, just letting you know I’m still on your side.

WW wrote:
on my side?
thats nice to know-wish i could
believe u. i feel like i have no one
any more. i am the enemy. i know this.
i have lost everything.

BS(ME)wrote:
u have not lost me or my love for u.
yes, i’m still on your side.
i do believe there is still a way that leads to happiness.

WW wrote:
well, i dont think
ill ever find it.
i am too lost & too far gone-
too many hurtful words have
been spoken-too much has happened.
i lost my daughter-the most important
thing in the world-now i am nothing.

BS(ME) wrote:
well, I think we just can't see it yet.
you maybe lost, but never to far gone to be found. The only limits are the ones we place on our selves.
u have not lost your daughter or me for that matter.
….she wants so very much for you to be her momming. She had plans last night of you and her spending time after work. She sat in the chair last night waiting for you to come home and take her somewhere to be together. She would not eat because she was waiting for you to eat with. She would not go outside and play because she was waiting for you to play with. She and we are not lost beyond finding.
Its not too late….lets look into what it will take for you, me and our daughter to find happiness and make a plan.

Dazed,

Steady as she goes. You are doing fine. Of course she feels lost, she is only looking at herself. Once the A is over and she starts looking around she will see you still there, her daughter still there, her family still there. She is feeling sorry for herself because you are making it hard to her to go play with her toys, and OM is a toy.

I had not realized you had only done plan A for a month. Please heed SH's advice and continue. But, also set your boundaries and maintain them. This will be hard until you realize that most of what you hear is self-serving "fog" talk and it will vanish.

You goal is to change what you can, be consistent with it, and focus on your goal. Getting your marriage to be something YOU BOTH enjoy. Take good care of your daughter. You may not realize this yet, but THAT one thing will affect your W more than you can realize. Be the DAD YOU have always wanted to be. If you do that, it will be easy for you to continue once the A is over and she comes back.

So hang in there, you are doing fine. She is in conflict and that is a great place for her to be right now.

God Bless,

JL

I could be wrong (surprising, I know...LOL) but when my wife got angry about me telling everyone, I simply asked her what I was supposed to have done...they ALL would have learned about it very quickly anyway, since she was moving in with him. I asked her what she was mad with me about...I hadn't done anything but let everyone know WHAT SHE WAS DOING.

I was calm, and non-accusatory, but firm. Why are you mad at ME...I wasn't the one who made any of these choices, you were. And all I did was talk with YOUR family, and YOUR friends...the ones you would have had to told about this anyway. Why are you mad at ME if THEY are the ones who are telling you that you're making a mistake? It's not my fault that they agree with me...they agree with me because I'm doing the RIGHT thing here, and they love you and don't want to see you do something to hurt yourself and everyone you love.

Perhaps you might be able to use a similar tactic when talking with your wife. But again...ALWAYS stay calm, never raise your voice, and never ACCUSE her...simply talk with her about it. MOST IMPORTANT: THE LOUDER SHE GETS, THE QUIETER YOU GET.....say that yourself again...it works everytime!

Owl-Thanks for the advice. last night after the dust setteled i ask her just that. "If you were in my shoes, would have done anything differently"? "Your friends and family only care about you that is why they want to talk to you about this". "If they did not care then they would just blow it off and not try and help. One day when your not so angry with me I think you will understand. Good night, I love you". And I walked away.
you are right it is so hard to not unload. I have slipped a little here and there but for the most part have kept my cool. She even made the comment to me the other day that she was surprised that I had not flipped out and done something to get put in jail over. I told her, "believe me many men would already be in an orange jump suit if put in my shoes honey". "That should show you how much I love you and care for you."
Well-it's 4:15 and I'm nervous about tonights events. I'm not wanting another round of last night that is for sure. She made the comment this morning before appolgizing that she wanted to talk about divorce stuff tonight. So, I'm preparing the broken record of (we need to do what makes us being happy together).

dazed-- i did the same thing to my WW, I asked her if the shoe was reversed, would you do anything different? Her response, NO. But she did tell me that she always said if I ever cheated shewould be through with me!! I posed the question , now what would you say? Blank response.... and here I am trying to save our marriage I said.
don't let her fog you.

Update:
WW is still very angry with me. She keeps repeating that I had a chance until I told everyone about her and OM. She claims she will never forgive me for running my mouth. All she can talk about is getting a divorce. She is so hostile that I can't even talk to her with out her spewing hate and filth at me.
She does not want to be home with me at all. All she can think about is OM. She is only home now so she wont easily lose the kids to me in the divorce.
She is still with OM at lunch and atleast an hour after work. She calls him when I'm out of the house. After walking in on her talking to him last night, she got mad and called the cell phone place back asking about getting another phone.
She went nuts on me again this morning telling me that she will end up hating me before this is all over. Saying I should just move on and find another women. People get divorced all the time. Well I really pissed her off by telling her if she thought DD12 would really accept any OM in her life much less this loser that she already thinks has taken her mommy away from us your crazy. I told WW that she is 12 years old and also can't think of a life with out mom and dad and her together. Do you really think that she will ever give OM a chance much less live with you and him.. The way I see it you need to think of your actions do not mean you get everything you want. Yes, your choice is OM or your family. You need to think of it just like that. DD know's dad wants us to be happy together and does not want you to leave so logically who is she going to be angry with.
Of course WW flipped out and said I was just trying to trap her and ruin her life and make it so she will never have anything she wants and on and on and on and on and on.
So, i left the room and took the kids to school. I had to return home and put up food from breakfast i prepaired for the kids. When I did, WW went off on me cursing me and going nuts telling me to just stop and let her go.
So, at this point I'm really tired. At this point I don't see a better plan other than filing for a divorce protecting my kids.

update dazed??

Dear Dazed and confused,
I want to pose a question to you?
Because your wife in incapable of resisting the o/m and cannot control the urge to contact him, do you think that by you exposing the affair it really caused her to decide that she would not give your marriage a chance?
The whole purpose of exposing was to allow the pressure of loved ones and friends opinions of this affair to show just what this relationship is. Sleazy, hurtful, dishonest and immoral.
Doing this is the right thing to do. This is the only chance you have of opening her eyes to what this affair is.
Hang in there, and don't give up, you have just begun the battle.

BE A BROKEN RECORD.... PLAN 'A'.... PLAN "A"..... PLAN "A"...... Oh yeah and PLAN 'A'..... No love busters, no angry outbursts, no disrespectful judgments, no threats, no calling the OM a loser.......

Dazed-- I exposed to everyone,yes she was pissed. Said the A wasn't as fun because everyone knew, the sneaking around was fun etc.. I plan A'd, small LB here and there. But be forewarned she may still leave as shes in the fog, but it puts her and OM now into reality and out of fantasyland. It's always different in reality. Just stay with your plans take care of DD, and hang in there.

They ALWAYS do this when exposed. Always, always, always. You are neither unique, nor special, Dazed. Ignore it the best you can. It is just babble at its worst.


Any word from her work? Again, dont worry about this. It is normal for a WS to react this way. Just maintain what SH told you and keep being that broken record. She is angry because in her quiet times, she doesnt even believe herself. As I just posted to Gramn...it isnt the wrong things she is doing necessarily...it is the fact that she IS wrong. She is wrong as a state of being. Cant be a very nice or fun place to be. And of course, when you are wrong, it is hard to get things right...like who is responsible for her being wrong.


Ho, hum. Right out of Chapter 47 of the Wayward Spouse Handbook, the chapter entitled "Where Did My Brain Go?"


Chapter 48, "And the BS Says 'Huh?'" Sorry Mrs. dazed...Mr. Dazed isnt like you!


People drink and drive all the time too. Doesnt make it right. Again, when you are in the state of being of wrongness, it is hard to get ANYTHING right.


My man...the truth comes out. Nice job!! I am sure that sat with her about as well as a bad plate of sushi. Most states allow the child to choose around the age of 13. You know, it was the court and my kids telling my wife was wrong before she finally listened. She wouldnt listen to me, the counselors, friends, etc. Funny how the truth can be rejected before ultimately accepted. She WILL accept it. Either by repentence, or by her life crashing down around her and her daughter not with her anymore. As God says, EVERY knee shall bend!


Brilliant! ALWAYS frame it this way. This isnt JUST a marriage being broken up. it is your daughter's and you and your wife's family being broken up.


More truth...and was probably like sunlight to a vampire for her!!

[/quote]Of course WW flipped out...[/quote]

As I thought!


Poor selfish thing. Help me here MelodyLane and Pep. Why cant I feel any compassion for this selfish WW? I mean, she isnt going to get everything she wants. How cruel! How so unfair of Dazed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Another great response. As I said in an another post, most men are accused of ignoring their wives and not listening to them. Well, in this case, it is a good thing!! You know what I do when my wife spouts off like that (still some residual fog even today)? I do like a dog that looks at something and cocks its head sort of sideways. You know the look, liek the dog is thinking "Say what?" Try it sometimes. Look at her, [censored] your head and have a look like she just spoke to you in Latvian.


And you ignored her and went on preparing food and putting groceries up, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Huh? Now you sound foggy!!! Stop that. You may not know it but this is EXACTLY how she is supposed to react. It is her ONLY way back. Yes it is tiring. And it aint fair. But you are the only sane and mature parent and spouse in this family right now. So you had better make good decisions here.

She is reacting to your Plan A the way all WSs do. I would be worried if she didnt react...if she just shut up and said nothing. It only hurts her because she does care, and does love you, your daughter and your family.

No quitting allowed! Let her file. My wife did! And she lost custody. And she is home now. You did well. She reacted as planned. Just stand by and keep it up for a while longer. She is cornered in her fog. Reality and truth have her penned in, not you. Just let her filthy mouth just go past you. Keep your eyes on the road and hand on the wheel. The Lord will take care of the selfish teenager in the backseat.

In His arms.

Got the appointment tomorrow at 10AM filing of the legal papers.
At lunch break I parked across the way from OM apartment. Just like clock work they managed to drive 3 miles from there work to his place in 5 minutes. In pulls his truck in pulls her our car. The both quickly head to his door and in they go. I feel like I'm throughing in the towel by filing but I just don't see anything else changing. She called looking for me several times this morning. She finally got me 30 minutes before lunch. She said she just wanted to make sure I'm okay. Says she does worry about me. I told her; how okay could i possibly be? The love of my life no longer loves me, and no longer shares the same dream of a future together.
Her reply: yes BS-
it does really suck.
im truly sorry. i wish i
could just flip a switch
and make it all better for everyone-
but that's not real life.

I know SH said to keep up the plan A but I don't see a future in it. She has went from on the fence to anger and no hope for us. I think she is just to far gone to keep up plan A.
FYI- WW tells me OM gave his resignation at work yesterday. Apparently there job reviews are this week and he got drilled. WW's is this afternoon. Sure would be funny if she got tossed today too. It's just seems to little to late. It seems she is completely wrapped around his finger and the only hope I got is to give her a taste of reality.

Mortarman- I just read your post. Actually put a smile on my face. thank you....
i know steve said to hang in there. I'm scared. I really want to call her work today. SH said not to. I think I might call her HR and ask to speak confidentially about my WW and her A with OM. Ask her to protect me as the source because I want to save our marriage not end it. Then se what she says and go from there.
I think I'm going to keep the appointment tomorrow. Atleast get my ducks aligned and paper work in his hands.

Might as well go for the scortched earth plan!!

update:
Well- after calming down from watching the two love birds at lunch i resumed my plan A role last night. Moved my legal meeting back until Monday. This will allow me to get my plan B program in place and all my legal ducks in a row too. Also made an appointment for dd to see council on monday to help her with all this.
I guess until i can control my emotions i probably should stop looking for the love birds at lunch time. I don't know. Yesterday I even took pictures. That maybe i could use them some how. Digital camera records the date on the print. I though i could use this to put together a time line of events to give to legal if needed.
OM's mother is still bothering my dd at her school. What do you all think I should do. My thoughts was to construct a very well written letter to OM's parents. Explain just what there darling little son has done to my family. Also, nicely word that she is to stay away from my dd and niece.

Dazed,

Number 1 operating order...protect your daughter. Go to the school principle if necessary but get Om's mother out of her life and yes expose to OM's mother and express your displeasure with her behavior as well.

Good idea to stop the lunch recon. It is adding nothing new to your closet full of knowledge.

God Bless,

JL

Monday morning update:
It just keeps getting worse. This week end was a completly horriable. Friday me an WW had several very friendly exchanges during the course of the day. We both agreed to setting down saturday and putting a plan in place to get us off this cycle of pain. She said some nice things about me and we had even talked about going out to dinner Friday night. All good intentions and feeling went down the draing at 4:00 Friday after noon when DD12 missed the school bus to go to her cousins house and decided to find a ride there by herself. She did not tell either me or WW what had happened or what she was doing. Once actually getting to her cousins house she left to walk to my work which is a mile away. So, no one could find her, WW called the police. WW got really embarrased when she could not even tell the police what DD12 was wearing. Great mom huh.
About 4:30 DD12 was found by WW walking back towards her cousins house. WW took DD12 back to her work with her until 5:00. DD12 told me afterwards she was hoping to see OM try to talk to her or her mom. DD12 says she wanted to yell at him. Although feeling very uncomfortable DD12 never seen OM.
So, once arriving home WW was in a really really bad mood and immediately started in by saying, "you can cage me up now". After allowing half hour to pass i attempted to talk to WW. She was still mad and acted like I was holding her there against her will. I asked if she had plans for the night or week end for that matter. She did not say much. I made plans with DD12 to go eat dinner and see a movie with me. This upset WW and she gave me more crap. While DD12 was out of the room, I asked if she wanted to join us. She just rolled her head and said nothing. I got upset and suggested maybe she just go if that what she wants. She called me while we were eating to ask when we were coming back home. I told her she said she would be home later. I suggested if she was going to go see OM, she should not return. She hung up on me. She called again 20 minutes later crying asking why i was going to keep her daughter from her. I replied i'm not taking her from you, you are loosing her. She wants her mom and dad to change the world she has known for 12 years. To her you are changing that by choosing to not come home and to be with OM. She is hurt by your choices. Besides she was your first priority for 12 years, now she is not and she can tell OM is now. For that she is hurting and mad at you and blames him. I'm just trying to fill the void you are making in life. I'm her dad not her mom. I can't be her mom, but as a dad I have to comfort her and help her and that is what i'm doing. Her reply was I hate you for taking her from me and she hung up. Now being drawn in, i called her back and said your actions and choices is what is keeping you from you DD. All i have tried to do is love you and try to reach out to you and you just keep trying to turn it around on me. All you can think about is OM and that is what has poisoned your relationship with everyone you know including your dd. Again I suggested she be gone when we get home if all she wants to do is fight.
Me and DD12 went shopping around in the mall for awhile and decided to pass on going to movies. Now neither of us really wanted to see a movie. We went home and watched tv for a while and went to sleep. WW was up stairs in my our bed so i left her alone for the night.
Saturday:
I awoke to hearing the cordless phone continually when dialing phone numbers. Apparently Om would not pick up so she was just either redialing or using some special ring code so he would pick up. About an hour later I awoke again to hearing her talking on the phone with my mother. She was arguing with her about interveining into her role as mother to DD12 and Niece12. I did not listen in on entire conversation but WW was getting more upset as they talked. This was just the valcano preparing for eruption. After the phone call ended I went into the room with WW. She immediately started in about my mother and all the problems she was creating in her life. DD12 heard the yelling and also joined us in the room. WW yelled at DD12 to leave the room. DD12 did not move. WW then started in telling me to tell my kid to do leave. Yelling crap like she was not her mother any more and when she's gone crap over and over. DD12 in frustration kick the side of the stair case on the way up the stairs. A small decoration fell from the ledge besides the stairs. That was it for WW she went on a insane rampage that lasted a couple hours before leaving. She destroyed every picture in the house that had her in it. All our family pictures are gone. Broke all the frames and tore the pictures out. She broke anything and everthing that represented our family. Gifts that me and my DD12 had given her over the years are all gone. She broke glasses, frames, mirrors, all the house hold decoration. While in the process of breaking she was yelling and screaming how much she hated me and our DD12. I held DD12 in her rooom to keep her from her mom. WW came in the room once yelling the most sick hateful things you could ever imagine. She actually told DD12, "you now have no mother, to you i'm dead." I got WW to leave the room and help DD12 while she cried and cried. WW finally stopped breaking things and started crying and cleaning up the mess. WW left the house around 1:30 saying she would not be back and to give her cloths to DD12 or through away.
5:30 as me and DD12 was preparing to drive off to go to her cousins house, OM drive by real slow. Must have been looking for WW wife. Of course DD12 sees him and says don't do nothing dad, he just wants us to get into trouble. I told her she was right and he aint worth it.
On my way back home from DD12 cousins house I recieve a call from my house. It's WW wanting me to look at her car...She got stuck in the automatic carwash and now the car doesn't drive straight. When I get there, she is parked in the drive. I'm at work and I'm out of time to finsih right now. Quick summary. She left Saturday afternoon and spent the night with OM. Showed up Sunday evening while I was out and was in shock to see that I had packed up all her belongings so she could leave and not come back. She broke down and begged me and DD12 to forgive her for her destruction. She cried herself to sleep around 9PM. I left her to sleep on the couch and me and the kids went on up to bed. Waking from another bad dream around 2PM I went down to see if she was still there or what. She was still there and on the phone with OM. Seeing me she got angry and hung up with OM. I asked her to leave. She got mad and quickly jumped up to call my bluff and started putting on her shoes. I already had mine on. I started loading her stuff into my truck to we could get her gone. Now standing at the door crying she says but where will i go. I said OM's house let go. You want him so damn bad let's giter done. She stood at my truck for several minutes crying. Then we drove to OM's apartment. Mr.wounderful was gone. So, I then placed her stuff in her car and went on home. WW drove by the house and even stopped in the drive several times the rest of the night. She called 7am asking to speak to DD12. She just said I love you and have a good day. Sorry about leaving with out saying good bye.
She has now emailed me twice and called twice to apologize. I have an appointment with my lawyer in one hour. Drawing up papers and looking into protection for kids. DD12 has an appointment at 4pm with councilor to help her with this stuff. Mailing letter to OM's parents today.

Dazed,

I am sorry to hear this, but she is heading toward the bottom. Perhaps when she gets there she will realize what you and the kids offer her and she will see the light. I truly hope so, because I feel, if she straightens up she may well turn back into the woman you love.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL for your kind words.

WW just left another message. Her mother apparently just went to WW's work place and ripped into and told her that because of her actions that she was going to lose DD12 to me if this goes to court.
WW mother does not care about us divorcing but is really mad about WW screwing over the kids.

Dazed,

Well at least MIL has part of her priorities correct...the children are being damaged. Now if she had the rest of her priorities right, your marriage would factor into this as well, because in the long run you are the person that can make your W happy IF you try, and you are the person that can and has been trying to hold the family together.

Time and patience Dazed, it can work wonders. I hope it does for you.

God Bless,

JL

I am so sorry dazed with what you and your DD are going through. Please give her a big hug and I will be keeping her in my thoughts and prayers.

I have two DD's, 6 and 8 and my 8yo is having a very tough time of it right now. I hate this for both our daughter's.

Dear Dazedandconfused,
I truly admire you for the strength you have shown under such emotional circumstances.

I hope your w/w sees the light.

dazed-your weekend sounds like the one I had at the first part of Sept.Our WW's are following the same path to the bottom. HAng in thre for your daughter as I am doing the same. My WW can't understand why her DD(16) wants nothing more to do with her. I realize this will probably change but it is what it is for now. Take care of yourself and your DD.

WW wants to come pick up DD12 and play after work today. DD12 wants to see her, but after last round of arguments I'm afraid to let her out of my sight. At this point I do not have any legal order to keep WW away or out of the house. I don't want to block WW from DD12 but what if she don't come back with her?

update; WW showed right on time. 5:10. wow! now i know what time she could be home if it wasn't for OM. WW and DD12 was out for three hours. WW asked if she could come in and talk with me and use the bathroom. Because I have not offically started plan B i said ok. WW told me about her evening with DD12 and that she had a great time with her. She started crying again and telling me how much she misses our DD12 and me and the house. She says she went and looked at an apartment over her lunch break and felt like it was a mistake. She says more and more she feels like she is making a big mistake and should just end it with OM and come home to me and DD12. She says a big part of her wants to save our family. Between the tears and crying she could not talk. I held her for awhile and caught her tears as they ran down her face. She could no longer talk to me and after collecting herself she gave DD12 a hug and kiss good night and started heading for the door. I stopped her and reminded her of her options and where i stand. She asked if she could call in the morning and talk to me and DD12. I said as long as its not from his phone. She said she would go to a pay phone. (no call this morning).
With her now out of the house, I think i must impliment my plan b. I'm not sure if I should put my legal stuff into action yet. i'm going to turn in all my paper work this afternoon but, i'm on the fence about actually progressing with filing for a divorce, legal separation or what. Obviously I want WW to leave OM and come back to me. I know plan B is to offer a taste of divorce and a road map back home. Will filing legal separation or divorce go against what i really want to happen?
Also, protecting my DD12 is a major factor. Obviously any contact with OM will be devastating to DD12, and the WW has proven to be mentally unstable.

Tell her that there is a solution to this...

Tell her to give you three months. Ask her to COMPLETELY break off contact with OM for three months...no setbacks or mistakes, or the timer restarts.

Tell her that if what her and OM share is true love (BARF!) then three months will mean nothing to how they're feeling at the end of that. EMPHASIZE this part!!! If it's really love...three months will mean nothing... If it's meant to be...three months won't change a thing. (It's not true, but she won't really realize that...and it's a CHALLENGE to her that is darned hard to refuse.)

But three months with you will give her the time she needs to see if she's making a mistake coming back to you or not. It has to be three months of NC...completely and totally. But, if she still feels that your marriage won't work out after three months of NC with him completely, then you both can make a decision on what to do from there.

The truth (between you and I...don't share it with her!) is that if she stays NC for three months, and you maintain the changes you've needed to, the odds are GREATLY in your favor that she'll get through the withdrawl and start to work on your M. I know of a couple of counselors who have used this tactic in the past...it's pretty darn effective.

Spring this on her the next time she's crying and upset and 'wondering'...and tell her that she needs to start RIGHT then.

At this point, what have you got to lose by trying this? You're not committing to anything at the end of those three months other than looking again at where you both stand...just word it exactly like I've suggested.

I know of a few couples who have had their marriage saved by trying something like this...one of those used to be a poster on this forum (/wave Sysyphus!).

Owl- I like your suggestion. Because WW can never make up her mind, this may work.

Here is the latest email traffic between us from today; They are in reverse order.

thanks-
i'll keep that in mind.
my heart hurts for hurting
u too.
see ya.
WW
_______________
WW-
It hurts my heart to know you are in pain.
Keep in mind you can come home and we can start putting this all behind us at anytime.

Me and DD12 still want you home with us and are waiting for you.
You take the first step, and we will take the rest together.
BH


im here.
guess im ok.
back is killing me from
sleeping on a couch-
there are sock rings on my
ankles from sleeping in them &
my waist has a permanent red mark
from my belt & also bra.--
my eyes are swollen from crying all
night--but-i guess im ok.
WW

Attached is the letter i sent OM's mother to expose the affair and stop OM's mother from bothering my DD12.
Let me know what you all think.

Mrs.xyz,

First let me say that I’m so sorry to have to meet you this way.
I have wanted to write you and or talk with you for quite some time. As you probably already know your son OM, has been having an affair with my wife WW for at least six months. There affair has most likely helped bring and end to his marriage and is close to ending ours as well. Besides me and WW have been together for 15 years and she is the love of my life, we have one beautiful daughter that is now paying the price of WW and OM’s actions.
As if there affair is not enough to deal with, the main reason I’m writing you for my DD12.
My daughter:
Because the thought of even looking at you scares her to death, she has not been able to go into the school library in four weeks. Why, you ask? Because of very poor decisions on behalf of WW and OM, my daughter and niece have both been exposed to there affair. The girls have been with them while they have spent time together this year doing things such as calling, swimming, and even on a dinner date. DD12 is heart broken over this affair and is scared to death of facing you. DD12 being of twelve years old believes that OM is the monster that has taken her mommy, turned her life and family inside out. Because her little heart is so full of pain she can not bare looking at you much less speaking with you. Out of respect of my daughter and niece I ask that you not attempt to contact or speak with the girls at all. The last thing a kid needs is to feel scared while at school. The place they are at all day should feel safe and comfortable.
Please, don’t take this as a personal attack on you or your job. As a wife and mother I hope you will understand.
To help you understand why my daughter feels this way:
There affair dates back to late March early April of this year. Yes, I do have proof to support my accusations. This on going affair between OM and WW has caused great pain in the lives of our family. These past weeks have been really devastating on me and DD12. The past months the two of them have spent all the free time together; on the phone, lunch breaks, after work hours, week ends, and now living together in his apartment. This all has inflected great pain on me and my daughter that words can not began to describe.
Again, please respect my daughter’s wishes and avoid her so she can feel comfortable while at school. I hope you respect my decision to contact you myself about this matter and not the school first. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me any time.
Thanks,
BS

Dazed...

Could you give your WW my email address? (it's in my signature below) I don't think that it's wise to bring her to this site yet, but it might help for her to be able to talk to a FWW...I had some of the same issues regarding insecurity and my h being gone all the time (working)...I too did not "trust" his Plan A changes...I never felt truly loved by him...my life is a whole 'nother ballgame now...I have never felt so much love in my life...I feel so blessed to be with my h...Your WW seems to be wavering, and I "wonder" if she might be able to benefit from my insight...I would definitely be willing to give it a shot...I even have free nationwide long distance, and if she would be interested I would be glad to call her...I do have a pretty mean case of laryngitis right now, but I still think that I could croak out something of usefulness... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure how you could tell her that you "found" me, just make sure that you fill me in on that part of things should you decide to give her my information...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. W
That is a great idea. may be a tough sell. I will just have to see if I can come up with a way to make the offer to her. The cost of talking to SH was a turn off to her.
Another bump in my road is one of WW consultants is my former sister in law. She was also a WW that left her marriage for OM just one year ago. My WW goes to the lost sole for advice. I just found out a week ago that my WW's sister incouraged and aided in the affair of my WW. When WW asked what she should do, Sis says go for it and have a fling. It your husbands fault he's not home with you. She allowed WW and OM to meet at her house and she drove them around together. my ww could really use a pro-marriage person for advice.
Here is what I sent WW in email today:


WW-
I love you.
I’m sorry about the way I have been acting. You know I’m only trying to fight for you, for us. The past six weeks I have been asking you to tell me what to do for you. Today we are only growing further apart.
I have been trying to be patient, but the thought of you making memories with him each day kills my heart and hurts my head. You can not imagine what it’s like knowing the love of your life to choose to love and be loved by another. The only thing that eases my mind is Kaylee and spending time with her. As wonderful as that is, it only takes the edge off the pain like a pill. The only time I can eat or sleep is when Kaylee is near. The last six weeks have taken such a major toll on me. I can’t sleep any more than an hour or two a night, I have lost 30lbs. I can’t think of anything but you and seeing you smile at me with love in your eyes again. The girl in the picture was my girl. Her smile was so pretty. I pray for the day I will see her again…. I just can’t stop thinking of you, I love you.
It seems I’m supposed to be doing something for you, to save our family. Kaylee wants me to do something to save our family. She was so happy to us hugging and loving each other Sunday night. She was so excited. She thought you were home to stay. When I tucked her in she told me thank you for loving mommy and she would pray for us. The next day she jumped right out of bed to run down stairs to see you. She was so heart broken. Later on that night she was mad at me for not doing something to keep you at home. You know why I packed your stuff. Saturday morning and then not coming home Saturday night. What would you have done if you were me? Then on top of it all I could not sleep Sunday night and came down stairs to see if you were awake to talk to me and you were talking to him and earlier you couldn’t talk to me and not wanting to pressure you I went on up to bed. Yes, I was hurt to see that. I just wanted you to stop me at any point while loading your stuff up. You never even tried to stop me or come back home. I set and cried on the couch waiting for until I found you car at his house at 5:30AM.
I’m sure you don’t want to here this stuff, but its real…The whole in my heart and tears in my eyes are real. The loneliness that I and DD12 feel when you’re gone is real.
Let’s just give it one last chance. Say three months to see if there is anything left for us. If your love with him is true, then three months will mean nothing. If it’s really love between you two and mint to be then three months will not change anything in the end. No commitments after three months, just stop and look at were we both stand.

Just look at how pretty you are….This was taken almost one year ago just after my birthday before we moved.

Dazed...

Do you think that it would help if I emailed her first? I could do so with the offer to listen and share my experiences with her...no judgement...

You'd have to let me know a couple things...

1. What email address is the best way to reach her...

AND

2. How you would want me to say that I came to know of her...I think that telling her through MB's would be okay, since she knows of SH and all, but I'll let you make that decision...sometimes WSes feel "bad" around counselors because they fear being labeled the "bad guy"...you could let her know that I have been exactly where she is (not that long ago, just look at my signature)...who am I to pass judgement?

I would like it better if she contacted me first, so that I could better gauge how best to approach her, (my sales training <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) but I'm willing to go any possible route that she will allow...I would eventually love to tell her how AMAZING a recovered marriage is, AND how possible that it is...I would really love the opportunity to actually talk to her...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. W- Thank you so much for reaching out to me. May god bless you and your family!
I don't know what to think about WW any longer.
You know I gave OM's mommy the school librian the letter requesting she have no contact with my DD12 plus gave some details about how immoral her son and my wife are.
Well-knowing OM is a mommas boy... He got called out on the carpet last night. WW promised my DD12 she would come over last night by 6:30 and they would spend some time. Me and DD12 drove by OM's parents house at 7:45 and there was OM's truck and WW's car. They spent several hours working damage control over there before WW called me at home.
Of course WW was steaming hot mad at me. She accused me and my DD12 of lying about everything. WW took OM's and his mommy's side about everything I wrote. It was just sick to listen to. There is no doubt the women I knew is gone.....Get this she now tells me that she misses our daughter so very much that she wants to come home and me leave. Let me tell you I ripped her apart for almost an hour about why that was never going to happen. So, at this point. She trashed our house Saturday. Told DD12 to think of her as dead. Told me she was never coming back. Left with most of her cloths Sunday. Now wants me to leave our home so she has a place to live. Oh, yah- almost forgot. Mommy told them she could not live there while they were both still married. WW called this morning to talk to DD12 of which I said no. She preseeded to tell me she slept in her car last night. I ask if she needed some cheese with that wine. She did not like that. Now says I through her out of her home and is blocking her from her daughter.
So, I went to the lawyer this morning and paid the retainer cost and turned in my papers. All that is left is for me to sign the doted line and turn it over to the court. No I don't want to do this. However, She told me she knows she will get everything if we divorce. ha ha... Also, now wants me to leave so she can move back. I'm now thinking she may pull something legally to make that happen. I have to protect my DD12 and myself now. After that Saturday morning melt down DD12 does not even want to talk to her much less see me leave and her move back. That was antother point i tried to make last night. DD12 will NEVER accept OM now. She knows he is the sorry SOB that took her mommy and broke up our family and is ruining her life. Why would she ever accept him. I reminded my WW that my mother did the same thing to me. As a result I moved in with my Grandparents and lived with them for 3-1/2 years. Of which 2 years I did not speak to my mother and to this day we have no relationship. WW was just speachless. WW is really out of control right now. My plan is file the papers. Have her served at her work place. Serve her a Plan B letter at the same time. This will protect my DD12 from crazy mom, other man's presents in her life, my home for DD12 and myself from the maddness. I'm still in love with the wife I once had. I pray I will some day see that women again. I'm losing hope that I ever will. She is so far gone I can barely see the women I knew just seven months ago. She is only a shell of the wonderful, caring, fun loving women i fell in love with. It's just so hard. You know I met her when we were 12 years old. I walked her home from school and holding her hand for the first two weeks of school. I can still she that warm smile she used to have. It's just too much for me to take. 21 years later that women is now the possesion of another man. I just get sick thinking about it.
Does any one think I should wait to file the final paper?

"Does any one think I should wait to file the final paper?"

No, by saying that you should move out instead of her, she may be thinking of taking legal actions against you to do this. You want to be on the offensive on the legal front. File now, ask for custody, and remain in the house. You can always make up later--even after a divorce.

If you have the time, check Mortarman's thread on getting his ducks in a row for his legal case against his FWW. He is now in recovery.

Best.

You have a good plan. I did pretty much the same thing. I would file and protect your daughter. Then evaluate if you want to finish it or sit on the divorce for awhile.

Get started. Protect yourself and daughter. Go to Plan B.

In His arms.

I concur. Your priorities are protecting your daughter, yourself then your marriage. Your WW is in a desparate position and may take desparate action such as presenting false claims of abuse or whatever. I would also get a tape recorder to record any conversation you have with her for here on out. I hope you've been keeping a journal and if not go back and write one up (in your own hand writing) detailing the craziness of the last few weeks. You may need this to support your testimony in court as WW will lie her butt off and try to flip the whole thing on you.

Good luck, W

Yup...time to file. Protect Protect Protect.

any pictures of her destruction tour?

journal of her craziness?

Great job on exposure to OM's mommy.

These guys are right. Make sure you document, record, and photograph. Do not get caught with your guard down. Your wife is unstable right now and will do ANYTHING. Be prepared. And expect ANYTHING!

In His arms.

Thanks everyone:
I do have pictures of the damaged items plus the dumpster full of broken decorations. I have a journal of each night she did not come home. I may be able to contact the hospital the night she took the dozen head ach pills at OM's and came home to me for sympathy. I know i should have called 911 each on the pill overdose as well as the house destruction. Don't worry, i will next time. Tomorrow at 1:30 i will sign the release to serve her.
I just learned she just dumped the guardianship off of my niece...The lawyer that represented us back in April failed to spell my name out with WW's on the legal doc. The doc did make light of our family being the legal guardians but specifically named WW. So-She just signed off on the papers and gave Niece12 back to my sisters drunken Ex-mother in law. The same women we went to court and had Niece12 removed from. My lawyer said there is not much I can do right now. I would have to appeal to the courts at a later date to obtain her myself. WW is going nuts...Tomorrow is Divorce filing day. I'm changing the door locks before WW gets off work tomorrow and me and DD12 are leaving town for the week end. That will keep WW off our backs for bit.
Because of WW's behavior I think I will wait for her to be served before issuing plan B letter. What do you all think. B letter after she is served or before?

Plan B letter...then have her served. That way,, she understands what you are about when the process server shows up.

In His arms.

About your niece - is it all right with you if she simply moves in with you or stayes with you regardless of the legal papers? If the other guardian is a drinker, you sound like a much better safe harbor for her. Drinkers care more about their next buzz than about maintaining a good home for children.

Update:
This is WW's latest message WW sent to me.
What should I do with this. I'm suppose to file for the divorce today. Send her Plan B letter Before she's served. Yes, I can see she makes no mention of missing me.
Please advise....

well, i cant believe i've been
gone for 5 days now. i feel sick
really when i think about it. i have
become someone else-someone even i do not know.i am so sad & crushed like i have a whole in my heart. i miss DD12 so much. I dont know what else to do. I have become this horrible person whom you probably think only cares about myself.
please believe me that is not what i am trying to portray. I want to be a mother to kaylee-I have the constant feeling like I am always forgetting something- u know what i mean- i guess cuz I am not seeing her. BH, please--I need her so much-I'm sure even more than she needs me. i feel so empty--please-I will do anything. please - I am sitting here at my desk crying-I am so empty & sad.
i know i need help.

Proceed as you planned. She has offered nothing, she proposes NO changes in her behavior toward you or even her daughter. She is just feeling sorry for herself.

Unless and until she offers a plan to change things for the better, you have no reason to alter your plans. Protect your daughter and yourself. Continue on as planned.

God Bless,

JL

well JL, i pretty much always read any time i see a post from you. and i will have to say, i do not know DKS's story at all, so maybe he has already done this.

i read that note from his WW and it breaks my heart. i have been there, "i know i need help."

i understand why JL says she is just feeling sorry for herself and he is right. i can recognize that too, because i have been there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

the problem is, in that state, she cannot offer a plan to change things for the better. she is very lost.

can you help her get into IC? can you show her how to get the help?

Ditto what JL just said.

One thing though. Let's say your WW means what she says in that last message. That she will do anything. Okay, here's how you help her...

Send Plan B letter this afternoon, see your attorney and have custody stuff served by Monday. The PBL will tell her how to get things straight. it will show her the way out of the fog and how to get home. At the same time, the custody/divorce stuff, as well as NC with her, will show that you mean business, that you will protect the family. It will also create a sense of urgency in her. She will see everythign slipping away. Her pain will be that she can no longer cake eat to stay out of pain. Now, no matter which way she goes, she will be in pain. So, might as well go home and not lose her life.

So, listen to JL. Send PBL this afternoon and call attorney and tell him to file immediately.

Stay on mission. Let her deal with the mess. And we'll see how things come out in the next few weeks/months.

In His arms.

FL, he does this through his Plan B letter. it will state things like she must begin counseling, she has to end all contact with the OM forever, to include a NC letter. The PBL is a map for the WS.

Since you are a FWW, would it have helped if you had a love letter like that? One that said that your husband will no longer tolerate your betrayal, but still loves you enough to show you the way out of your mess...the way home?

My guess is "yes."

Plan B is made for what he is going thru. And for her.

i just went back and read just part of this thread, the most recent stuff.

i withdrawal my comments <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

MM, yes, your guess is absolutely correct.

FL,

In understand your ambivalence to my response. It does not seem very charitable, but the key point is that she is still in the A. She just got done tearing up their house and every picture in it. She has told her H and her daughter where to stick it.

She needs to face the consequences of her actions. I fully agree this woman needs IC badly. She has some issues that MB cannot address. However, she is the one that is going to have to face them, and perhaps her H filing for divorce will force her to look at things from some other angle. At least the filing will protect H and their daughter from her outbreaks and other issues including financial.

So my "harsh" reading of her message is reflected in the fact that she did NOT even apologize for what she did the other day, much less indicate a willingness to stop or consider stopping the affair.

He has a plan, nothing has changed except that his W is starting to realize she is losing something but...she cannot seem to remember what it was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It is a sad thing.

So at least Dazed has two points of view to consider.

Hope things are looking up for you FL.

God Bless,

JL

Believe me it breaks my heart too. Of course I love her and want to help. Of course we know that getting her away from the Alien is the answer that she can not see right now. We have talked with council. Steve Harley and a local. Unfortunitly the council she talked to was not a pro-marriage council and said to her and I quote: "i'm surprised it took this long before you had an affair".
If she would agree to saving our marriage, then i will require all of us to go to council.
Yes, she is on a steady course for rock bottom and the pain is becoming more than she can make go away. Even the Alien must not be able to make it all better now. Yes, she is still being the victim. Until that changes and she takes responsiblity there is no hope.
Yes, I know I have to show her the way and rules on how to get back to the women she was. Then if she is willing to meet me half way, we can walk the rest together.
Thanks every one, and I ask for prayers for my family. I have felt like there is a knife in my stomach all day. I so very much don't want to file for a divorce, but I think its the right thing. It just feels wrong.

after my first post, which i obvioulsy posted way too hastily, i read about all that. that is why i posted the second response.

i had this said to me too, along with "I don't think your H loves you". and we paid for that "help".

DKS, i am so very sorry for your pain and the situation you and your DD are in. i have put you down specifically on my prayer list.

FL- Thank you and god bless you! I paid money for that "help" my WW recieved too. Its really sad when two people that love each other, are suppose to be together for ever have this happen. Proof that Satin is at every door and its our job to keep him out.

Here is my response to WW's message-
WW-
I too can't believe what has happened between us either. It all sounds like something off of a tv show, not between three people that love each other.
I too feel sick and just thinking about it hurts so bad. I too feel crushed and there is a whole in my heart and sole missing you and our family.
I agree that the WW I once new is gone. I pray everyday for the women that was so full of life and love to return inside you.
Yes, I can help but you. Why? Because I love you and care about you...
HOW? -there is a way that leads to happiness for all of us. That answer is ending everything with him forever, and coming home to save our family is it...You take the first step, we will take the rest together... All the other options come with pain and hurt for all three of us.

Update:
From the last time I posted my plan got off track again.
I learned Friday that WW made arrangements to give our niece back up to her drunken grandmother. WW lied about signing off on guardianship papers. The truth came out on WW signing off on papers Monday. WW contacted drunken grandma and made arrangements for her to pick up Niece12's belongings over the week end.
Last Friday WW came home to visit DD12 that was out of school due conferences. WW decided to clean the house a little and bring in the mail. My lawyer mailed me a confirmation letter and reciept of my retainer deposit for divorce services. This was all just minutes before I was to meet with the lawyer to sign the deal. WW was visibly shaken and asked me if my plan was to keep DD12 from her. She also said she thought I wanted to stay married and this was a ****** of way to show by hiring the toughest lawyer in the area. With tears running down her face she darted for her car and drove off. At this point I missed the appointment with the lawyer. WW came directly home after work wanting to talk. She said she understands why i contacted a lawyer and she can not be my wife and his girl friend. She aske me for 2 or 3 days to figure out what to do. She said she loves me and really wants to come home. With tears streaming she wanted me to hold her as she cried and appologized for everything she has done. She said over and over it was all her fault. I asked her to spend the week end at our home to do this so called thinking. She said she had plans to stay at another womens house to avoid OM and me. She would not tell me where or give me a number. I believe if she was at the friends house he was there too. His truck was not at his or his parents house all night long. Neither of there vehicles was at any local hotels. Me and DD12 went to KC to celebrate my birthday Saturday and stayed until Sunday night. WW made no attempt to contact us. Because WW was hiding all week end, I had to contact drunken grandmother and tell her she could not come get anything until Monday afternoon.
WW showed up Sunday night around 7:30. I asked how the week end of isolation went. I got no reply for about 30 seconds, then she said well I came by to see you and no one was around. I said well that is funny. I left a notebook sized piece of paper taped to the door that asked you to call my cell if you came home. She said nothing for awhile.
I asked if she had actually figured anything new out. She said I don't know. She acted very withdrawn from me and tried to tell me something and stopped herself twice. Then looked at me for a minute or two and started to cry. She asked if I would go get my retainer payment back from the lawyer. I asked do I still need a lawyer. She said she didn't know. I asked her what she would do in my shoes. I said you could not have been surprised by me hiring a divorce attourney are you? she said no. DD12 asked her if she was staying. She did not answer. DD12 went back upstairs disappointed. WW started cring again. She asked me if it was just that simple. She get her things, come home, stop it with him, and we start over. I said yes. That is the first step you take, we take the rest together. She set on the couch with me for awhile longer. She appeared to be mentally flipping from wanting me to hold her to her going cold and with drawn. Almost a splitting of herself. She looked so in pain. I tried to hug her and she bolted to the door and left.
Monday-My birthday.
WW sister emailed WW asking if she could come over and cook me dinner for my birthday. he he.. WW was very poed about that and told her she was not aloud in our house. I stayed at home with my sick DD12 the entire day. In the afternoon WW sent me flowers with a card that says she loves me. Niece12 was to be picked up from school for the last time Monday. Niece12 not wanting to go back home with DG had called her biomom which has not guardian rights left and set up an escape plan. Niece12 and her biomom left from school before I could get there. So I had to mediate between DG, biomom on the run, my mother, and WW. WW shows up directly after work. She was acting nervous and not really wanting to be there and withdrawn from me. I told her she needed to work out this situation with niece12 before she ran and hid. She seemed like she could bolt any momemt, so I decided to tell DD12 and her friend that I woudl go get them food to eat. This would buy me some time to work on a plan to get niece12 back before police found biomom and took them all to jail. I returned with the food and told DD12 to stay in the house even if mommy wants you to leave with her. I thin told WW that I was leaving and she had to stay with the kids. This way she was present and accounted for at home if and when people started calling looking for niece12. The kept WW in the center of her mess and forced her to deal with a lot of upset people that she poed by signing off guardianship back to DG with out telling any of us. We finally got biomom to drop off niece12 around 10:30pm, only minutes away from the police issuing an APB on her with DG wishing to press charges. WW was hiding in the corner of the living room with I asked biomom to come in and bring in niece. I took niece upstairs to what was her room and talked to her for awhile tring to ease her pain. Then went back down stairs to get WW to tell me and biomom what she had done. WW reluctantly agreed to meet and talk as a group but she did. Biomom has finally now decided to obtain rights of her kid back, which is great. She claims to now be meeting the court requirements to do this. WW appologized to all of us for her actions and ruining everything for niece and letting us all down. We talked for several hours and peacefully ended the crisis by biomom agreeing to take niece back to DG until she could get before the court and obtain her child the correct way. All of which is now in motion. However, at that time WW still did not addmit to signing off on guardianship. We learned this Monday when DG shown biomom a copy when she dropped of niece12. Hopefully my sister the biomom can really pull her head out and go to court and get her child back. So long story short, WW really backed herself respectfully out of that deal. After everyone left the house, WW again appologized telling me i deserve better than her, and how could I still love someone as bad as her. WW told DD12 she would stay the night and help her with her hair in the morning. WW told me she was going to go get her over night things and come right back. She called with in the hour saying now she would be over in the morning.
Tuesday- She called me early saying her car tire was flat and could not make it. She began to cry saying why did she ever leave. I said why did you ever leave. Maybe this is your sign... OM the hero had no idea's on how to help her with her car other than call someone to fix it. I guess to show up OM, I told WW I would take her over my air tank for her to air up her own damn tire as long as moved it off the losers drive way. I droped the air tank off, watched her fill the tire and she drove it to work. She called me from her work very surprised that I was willing to help her. I asked what was wrong with hero. She said nothing other than she was going to have to call a tire shop. Yeah, I laughed and asked why he couldn't even change it for you. Knowing the damn well I was the only one that has the special tool that fits the locking lugs to the car. Yeah, you all are going to say why did you help at all I'm sure. So, I told WW I would even come over to your work on my lunch break and I bet I could pull out a nail or screw and fix it with out taking it off the car and be done in five minutes. I went out on my break and did just that. WW was very impressed and came right over after work. WW, DD12 and I watched tv for a couple hours. I got us all dinner. We played around and talked like old times. Later when DD12 to bed, WW confessed she did not want a divorce but is so overwelmed with guilt that she can't look at me or herself anymore. She said she feels so aweful and has hurt me so bad that how could she come home and we ever work again. She asked how could i ever forgive her for this. I held her that I still loved her and we can make it through this. We needed to trust and believe in each other and she needed to take that step towards us now. Then I would be with her the rest of the way. She cried and went limp in my arms. She looked so bad. She looked like she has not slept for days and so full of pain. I told her she had to stop this pain, we have to move off center here. It is simple. End it with him forever, and come home to give our family a chance. Let's just take small steps to heal this. It all starts by coming home. She said she knows, but she just can't tonight. She left around 12.
I'm sure Mortarman, JL and Mrs. W will probably kick me for prolonging this but, I'm not sure if she will respond positively towards my filing for a divorce. I know with her out of house, my plan A stuff is just making me out to an idiot. So I think plan B straight up and if she gets violent or vendictive, file the papers for protection.

Cake eating and making "waffles".

That is what she's doing.

And she's getting reassurance from you that you will want her back.

Honestly, I think she is one of those women who feeds of hysteria or something...

I think she loves being the "one in the middle torn between 2 lovers"...I think she is loving this drama. She goes to your home...you wine her dineher and give your promise to love her and heal your family..trying to win her back by fixing her tire.

And then she goes back to OM at night sleeping with the [email]b@stard...and[/email] he does all he can in the sack and when he's with her to keep her there.

She is getting BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

I say just buy the girl an cake and let her eat it in front of you!

What a woman she has become!

She is acting my friend. My xh was a genius at this stuff...he'd do same thing...I swear Peach I am coming home...give me some time to sort my feelings out.

I am angered and shocked she would sign off her neice to a drunk...she is sick! And I am angered and shocked above all that this woman would LIE TO HER OWN DARLING DAUGHTER...he daughter was looking forward to the mom/daughter bonding...she wanted her mom to help her fix her hair in the morning.

And where was mom? Mom abandoned the daughter again. Daughter must be crushed.

This woman deserves to be ALLOWED TO HIT BOTTOM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER OK?

I am getting angrier at this serial cheater and taker!

B and D time baby.

She is trying to make her mind up? Gimme a break! She is eating a chocolate cake with buttercream icing!

If it were me, I would "serve" cakewoman with some papers...and beside the papers on front door I would have a cake with her name written on it...I'd have PBL with it...saying you can have your cake now honey...but you either eat it with OM or with ME...no more cake eating with both of us!

What are you waiting for?

In His arms.

MM, or anyone else:

You are a well respected member here, so perhaps you can answer my question. Can you please tell me what constitutes being a "doormat"? I am struggling with that concept again, and before I comment further on this thread, I would like to hear your interpretation on this.

When does "fighting" for the marriage blend with being a "doormat". Being a "doormat" is almost never admitted to on this board, but even a simpleton like me has to question when this line is crossed.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

LM

I would file the papers, with a restraining order (complete with pictures) as soon as possible. Your wife sounds a bit unbalanced. Next she may drum up false charges against you, and put YOU out of the house.

And believe me, it is easy to do. I went to court to keep WH out. I filled out papers, and went before the judge. It took less than 30 minutes. The judge said he couldn't give me a restraining order, because WH was not threatening or violent. Then he asked me if I wanted to redo the papers.

Had I wanted to lie, that would have been it for WH. I would have had a restraining order until we went to court.

Hey Lemonman...

The doormat? A VERY fine line. Much of the difference has to do with intent. Let me give two examples...

First, you are in Plan A, and wife calls complaining that she doesnt have enough money for groceries. She is working a low paying job, has moved out on you and the kids. She wants money or groceries from you. So, you buy groceries this week for her, and enough for when the kids go to visit her. Good Plan A stuff, right? okay, but then she calls back two weeks from now and needs help again. And you do it again. even though she is still gone and still banging the OM. YOU HAVE NOW BECOME A DOORMAT!

second one....same situation. And you dont give her money, you buy the groceries. Two weeks later? She comes to you asking for more. This time, you put conditions down. "Honey, I would love to help. You know that. I have already helped once before. But you are going to have to end things with the OM before I can help with groceries any further." This is NT being a doormat. I have shown her love and met a need by the first groceries. So, she knows what things could be like. But I also have drawn a line (boundaries) by not being a doormat and being walked all over when I told her I would not help her again unless OM is gone. Plan A isnt being a doormat...it is about ending the affair.

Thus, I get back to intent. If you do something in Plan A and the intent is to just meet a need, then you are headed for doormat-status. If you do so but have a plan, such as the one I just showed, then you are doing the things to show your WS what things would be like if they came home, you met a need...but also showed you had a spine and would not be walked all over.

This is an actual example. I did this with my wife.

Hope those examples spell it out.

In His arms.

Well, thanks for the thoughts. I do understand your point, but I worry that many posters (including the one who's thread this is) rationalize the "intent" portion and just get caught up in meeting needs.....We always talk about "meeting needs" in Plan A, but as has always been my issue with Plan A, is many times, the BS HERE looses sight of that "fine line" you speak of.

I don't think there is anything more repugnant and more of a "turnoff" to a WS than a BS acting as a "doormat". I think bringing up this point with you is a much needed "alert" to some people on this forum.

I am of the school of thought, that nothing a Betrayed Spouse can do could be worse (for their self esteem, integrity, self respect...AND MARRIAGE), than being a doormat. I used to liken the "Plan A" and "Doormat" as being one in the same...I have since changed my view on this.....I still worry that many though "still don't get it".....they need excellent examples like you gave above.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

By letting your wife cakeeat like this, it is clear that you are not interested in doing the best thing for your daughter and your M . Appeasement in your case is not what is needed. She needs a serious wake up call. And you, my friend, are doing everything in your power to avoid this. In fact, you are doing everything in your power to undermine any chance for your M to survive.

Dazed, please wake up and help your wife--by letting her hit bottom.

dazednconfusedks,

I'm just back here after 4 years away... I've read this WHOLE post and I'm so sorry you and your D have to go though this...
I just wanted to add my 2 cents...
First off, my hats off to you for your hard work in saving your marriage...for the most part I think you're doing a good job... I must ask... how long have you been in Plan "A" ?
I think Harley suggests a 6 month period minimum for Plan "A" and THAT is with NO love busters...etc... or you start again...
If I remember correctly.. it is to fill the needs that the OM CAN NOT fill... and only that... thus.. the fine line between "doormat" and A true Plan "A'er"

It is meant to replace lost love in your lovebank...
The only things I see that you're doing wrong and I would qualify as a LB is:
1.) Telling her of YOUR pain...(Hence her guilt trip attitude) no offence....A little too much like begging.

I think you'd do better and illustrate the "New improved you" better.... if you highlight the things YOU did wrong and show her that you understand what gave her the fertile ground to have an affair with OM and remind her that when things were "good" between you and you were filling ALL OF HER NEEDS OM couldn't have even turned her head and that in that respect.. you failed your marriage and want to change those things...

2.) Telling her that she is losing her D.... I think a BIG LB... first off... you wouldn't want her to stay with you ONLY for your D...so it really should be left up to what your D says to her.... otherwise (which seems to be happening..) she could ONLY think that the ONLY reason your D would be upset with her is because YOU (the villain) must be turning your D against her.

Where as if you stood STRONG and demanded your daughter NOT be disrespectful to your WW... (she is wrong but still her mother) not only does that prove that it is between the two of you to your WW... but you aren't giving your DD12 BAD habits that may be hard for her to break in the future and MAY even be used against YOU someday when she wants something from YOU that you can't give her at that time. Although I understand (and relate) to your situation) she's much to young and it is unfair for her to be put in a position to "discipline" your WW for what she's doing to YOU and your marriage.
You may even take away a little of her pain and anger towards your WW by telling your DD12 the part YOU played in this.. this could teach her VALUABLE lessons about relationships that will help your DD12 NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES in HER future relationships...filling needs....being unselfish... etc...

3.) As far as I know.... Plan "B" and DIVORCE are not "tools" to "wake her up" or to "let her see what COULD happen" etc.... these are SERIOUS BUSINESS!!...
Plan "B" is meant to save ANY love THAT YOU still have for your WW... and should be used ONLY after a LONG and CONSISTENT "Plan "A" has added some love units to your love bank. This is my understanding of it... I think that's why SH suggested you wait for a while before using it... as far as I can tell that was what... less than a month ago he told you that? He's the expert...
There is NO WAY you are going to see DRASTIC results in that short a period of time... If you did it wouldn't be real... it took YEARS and YEARS for your marriage to get to this point...it isn't a quick fix... I KNOW a day seems like a month... I know... I lost 40 lbs and slept 1-2 hours a night for months.... the first time my Mother saw me she cried.... I'm not ashamed to say I cried EVERY SINGLE DAY...it's HORRIBLE... I know.... I KNOW how hard this is... I've lived it... BUT.... you can fix it "Quick" or you can fix it "RIGHT"

I can take a little of the pain away with this (I hope) the OM is NOTHING.... NADA.... ZILCH.... he has VERY LITTLE to do with this....he's an easy target... but he's doesn't have the power you think.... otherwise... your WW wouldn't be confused... he's an illusion...your WW knows this....DEEEEP down...
Let's put this into perspective... you've been married 15 years.,.. she knows him less than a year..... you have a Daughter you BOTH love.... he could care less about your daughter.... your wife or you...... YOUR WW KNOWS THIS>... DEEEEEEP down....there's more...but do you see the point.... he IS the FOG... she knows this....somewhere in her poor lost soul....she knows this... she knows she still loves YOU!!

4.) DIVORCE..... you file for divorce WHEN YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE MARRIED TO YOUR WIFE EVER AGAIN, now I'm not saying not to protect yourself and your DD12 legally do that if it gets any worse... but your WW is right.... you say you want to save your marriage and your FILING FOR DIVORCE?? She's confused.... YOU NEED TO BE CONSISTENT... divorce is NOT A THREAT to wake her up..... it is not a tool to save your marriage.... it is SERIOUS BUSINESS... it means you DO NOT WANT TO BE MARRIED ANYMORE TO THIS WOMAN....EVER....don't file until you can say these words in your heart..

OK... my 2 cents turned into $3.98 sorry.... just one more thing.... Find out what YOU did to make this possible...hard to swallow... I know... you didn't deserve it... or cause it...I'm not saying that...it was and is still her VERY BAD decision... but you had a part in it... find out what needs you didn't fill and fill them... find out what things you need to fix in YOURSELF... you can't fix your WW you can't change what's happened and make it go away... but you CAN prevent it from happening again..... hopefully with the woman you love NOW..... and by sharing what you've learned about YOUR MISTAKES with your WW.... you will remove some of the guilt which is causing her to be in so much pain.. and is also causing her to ask you "How can you ever forgive me (really)" "How can you still love me" She WILL NOT come home healthy feeling all this GUILT... it only adds fuel to the fire with OM... because SURELY... they are "soul mates" and if it works with him.... she's NOT a bad girl... is she? It was just meant to be.... it also proves that you "get it" and when she comes home.... you will STAY changed and that it's not just a "trick" to get her back like OM is probably telling her... well....that's it....
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

Frank-
D-Day was 9-6-05. Started Plan A 9-20-05.
I do now understand what i did wrong in our marriage. Also, know what WW did wrong. Long story short...I spent many hours away from home working. WW took this as i did not care about her, want her, or felt I loved her. Your standard case of neglect. I have since stopped my part time business and auto racing carrer to be home with my family. I have read the basic consepts and about the love bank, love busters, and emotional needs. It is plain as day what I did wrong. Over time I failed to meet almost all of my wifes top five needs. Then on top of it all she is a very poor communicator and has failed over the years to tell me what she really feels and is thinking. The last three years as my work required more of me and my racing carrer was taking off, our marriage paid the price. The time i was at home it was focused on my DD12. I realize that i set my wife up to fall for the first loser that pretented to care about her. Yes, he is a co-worker. Yes, he is not attractive. Yes, he started out just being her friend that she could talk to about our problems. That part ties into what her problems are in our marriage. Scared to tell me what she really felt, so she confided in a loser that only wanted to trade his wife in for mine. That's basically how it all started. As she felt more and more for him, our relationship go worse and worse. I did many love busters not even knowing she was cheating. I did everything wrong while she was falling in love with this total piece of _hit. It is hard for me to believe how i got in this deep. WW was never perfect, but always was a very caring person that i see now really did try to reach me over the years. Her approach was missunderstood by me. I know all this now.
I'm trying to be the person i want to be now. That angers WW. She ask why it took an affair to wake me up. She constantly attacks me for this. WHY NOW is her famous line. I have defended my self pretty well with that.
Your right, WW does not like to see me hurting. It is adding to her guilt. She is angry with me for not being strong enough to not show my pain. I think this adds to her guilt but if i didn't not hurt a little in front of her then she would not think i cared about us.
She does think that i'm brain washing DD12 that is really angry with her. DD12 anger is growing each time mom lets her down. I have told DD12 that dad was not a good husband to mommy and also not the best daddy to you either. You need to know that daddy should have been better to mommy and she would not have gotten sick like she is now. I'm making changes so I can help mommy get better and be a great daddy to you. DD12 says I know dad. You have passed the test, it's mommy that is failing. I said, explain. DD12 says dad I know you were not home enough and it hurt me and mom when you were gone. But, you are now home and you have quit racing to be with us. It's mom that now needs to pull head out and come home to us and be my mom and with you. I said, honey I love you, and i wish we could all see it like that.
Last night we all three went to parent teacher confs at DD12 school. WW was really on edge, i thought because OM's mommy works there. So, I tried to be nice, make small talk and ease the tention. She was really withdrawn. We almost made it through when I screwed up. While waiting in the gym to meet with the last teacher, my cell rings. It's a guy wanting to buy my truck. I cut the call short, WW ask who it was. I told her a guy is going to by the truck. She immediately attacks me about her car being a big pile of _hit and how I have made her drive that junk, and I should drive it and see just how bad it is and she bets i would fix it with in a week if I was to drive it and on and on. I said, WW you know why you don't have a new car. It's your fault you turned me down in April when you were testing driving cars to buy. She just started right back in about how bad her life is all because of me and I never gave her anything good, and never any money, and on and on. I lost it and shoved DD12 school papers at her and started to walk off. She made a smart [censored] comment to me, and I told her to _uck off. I went out side for a few minutes and calmed down. Then went back in. Yes, i should have stayed away. Stood with daughter for her last review. WW made some more cheap shots at me. I calmly asked if she would like to accompany me to the library before we leave. WW started walking for the door. So, me and DD12 finished up, and went and ate dinner. When we got home WW was there carring her cloths back in the house. DD12 tells me mom told her earlier in the day that she was coming home. So, now i see why she was so pissy. Later after she went to sleep, I snooped through her purse. I found phone numbers and notes on apartments she had been calling on earlier in the day. However, she only makes 10$ and hour and can not afford much. Espically if she thinks she is going to buy another car. I might add that the WW has very high standards of living. Most say she is spoiled by everything i provided her and she still thinks it was not good enough. Her own family refer to her as a spooiled princess. So, she can't live the way she wants on her own. Not sure what finally clicked to make her move out of OM's apartment. Probably just realizing that DD12 will not ever go over there and she is missing DD12.

Awww, that is very good news. Now she is back home with you, but have the two of you discussed no contact with the OM?

After our deal last night at the school we did not discussed much. DD12 yelled at her for fighting with me at her school. WW was not impressed that DD12 thinks she was in the wrong. Accused me of brain washing. Before DD12 confronted mommy, I had told DD12 daddy should not have let mommy get me upset and i take half the blame for over reacting.
I plan on talking to her about no contact and group MC tonight. Not expecting an open arms welcome to either one.

dazed,
I have been here for a LONG time but under a different name which no longer seems to work. That being said I feel like there are a couple of things I can offer here having read all the posts you have written.

First off...don't threaten your wife with anything; even if you don't consider it a threat she might so be careful what you say and do. You want to be the good person here. The problem with threats is that too often we don't intend to carry them out, just use them to try and control the situation. If you are not going to do it, and do it immediately then don't say it.

Second...when you mentioned defending yourself. Stop. This is not the time to be defensive. When an issue comes up in which she is saying how you did this or that, agree with her. Tell her that yes you did/were like that, have realized it and are trying or have changed. End of conversation.

Also when she seems to start attacking you in inappropriate places such as the school. Tell her that you are not prepared to discuss it now as you are there for _____ and that you will be happy to talk about it later at home and in private. Don't let her goad you into losing your temper, that just reinforces to her that you are the bad guy. You need to learn to head her off at the pass.

I do think that it is good that she is back home...but you should not let her continue to attack you or be blamed for everything happening now in her life. That is all her doing. I do think that you have to consider your boundaries and what you will and will not accept and make them clear to her and be prepared to stick to them when she goes off or takes off again.

I could say more, but will leave it at that for now and hope that you can gather the strength necessary to weather what is going to be a difficult time for you all.

HI,
I agree with dancingrosey ... don't let her bait you into a fight...she's "testing" you now and that is actually a good sign...
She has a lot of anger towards you... anger is what? Hurt turned inside out...she is showing you the pain she felt for all the time she felt unloved... again.... textbook...expected....
This is like a football game... it has strategy... good football coaches teach there players what things will or could happen and teach them to do a certain thing if and when it does... then they are not REACTING to what is happening.. but taking the necessary steps to prevent what is happening...

MB principals are just that... tools to prevent.... and they are meant to teach us not to "react" to our "crazy" WS because they aren't rational at ALL!!

The thing that amazed me when I first got here is although all our situations are completely different... we are all different and our length of marriage is different.,.. there were sooooo many things that were the same... a pattern....
I remember a thread were we all posted the things hurtful things our WSs said... like "I love you but I'm not IN love with you" (the most hurtful one!!) and it was incredible how they ALL said and did the same things almost like a script....

SO.... watching and reading for many years has taught me that the people that had the greatest success repairing their marriages were the ones that first of all "got it" (which I think you have BTW) and secondly.. stuck to the MB principals without fail.... NO LB NO disrespectful judgments... NO anger... because.... all those things do is fuel the fire for the OP and we start at square one again...
PRAISE GOD that she is home again.,.. I know she's kicking and screaming about being there but take heart that just the fact that she is there is a VERY VERY good sign.,..
Her "FOG" is telling her that she was forced into it with guilt and pressure from your DD. And I'm sure she's planning her FINAL escape.... BUT.... WE KNOW SOMETHING SHE DOESN'T KNOW.....Why? Because it is the same OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.....
What do we know? THIS MARRIAGE CAN BE SAVED!!! THIS MARRIAGE CAN BE EVERYTHING SHE HAS ALWAYS WANTED IT TO BE!! IT WILL JUST TAKE A LOT OF REPAIR AND HARD WORK...

She still loves you.... she REALLY deep deep down wants your marriage to be what you keep telling her it will be... (it's what she cried about all the time you were hurting her) but.... she doesn't believe it can be true....
So... like dancingrosey and SH are telling you... YOU need to be the ROCK... you need to not waver and YOU need to do ALL the work for now (unfair but true <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) BTW she was doing all the work before when you were neglecting her... you didn't know and she tried BUT DIDN'T HAVE THE TOOLS...

YOU HAVE THE TOOLS THAT SHE DIDN'T...!!!!! THEY ARE RIGHT HERE IN FRONT OF YOU... SHE WAS TRYING TO REMOVE A SCREW WITH A HAMMER.... IT DIDN'T WORK... SO SHE GAVE UP... BuT NOW YOU HAVE A SCREWDRIVER!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> THIS CAN BE FIXED!!
BUT.. YOU HAVE TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE SHE DID WITH THE HAMMER FIRST.... DO NOT REACT....DO NOT REACT..... DO NOT REACT.... PREVENT.. AND REPAIR... be the broken record Harley told you to be... he's the expert...
Stay strong... you are doing VERY well for only a month of knowing what to do... really... you are rookie of the year in my eyes.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you must have read allot...
If you need to vent... come here and do it... if you need to be hurt... be hurt here.... but in front of your WW no matter WHAT she says to you DO NOT REACT.... STAY CONSISTENT AND POSITIVE THAT YOU CAN HAVE A GREAT MARRIAGE AND TELL HER WHEN "SHE IS READY" YOU HAVE THE TOOLS YOU GUYS DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.....

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

dancing & PH-
Thank you for your very kind words. I don't think I will accept your nomination for rookie of the year. Rather think I'm the leading canidate for dumb _uck of the year or the last four to five. When i reflect back on this year since WW started her relationship with OM in March, all the caution flags were waving, even red flags and i blew right past them with my head up my you know what. I feel so stupid and horrible for how i treated the most important part of my life. I hurt my wife so much she thought that i did not even care about her anymore. When i think back over and replay the years since i started racing and she was there doing all she could to love me the only way she new how and i just hurt her. Yes, the hammer and screw is a great analogy. I know i laid the grounds for her affair. She just got so worn down and tired of waiting for me to return. The man she fell in love with was gone for so long she finally gave up on me. It is so tragic. I know she loves me and wishes we could work deep in side. She even told SH that. She told me she can and has forgiven me. She just can't forget. Her thought process is all screwed up now. She says she remembers situations where i hurt her and those memories make it hard for her to not think negitive about me. That is true. I have ask her to not always look at the glass half empty but half full. She always picks the bad out of all the great things i have done for her. I know right now that is the script of a WW.
WW just called me a couple seconds ago. She asked if she or me was going to pick up DD after work. I suggested she do it. My reason was keep her from visiting with OM after work which was her routine. She accepted and then started in about being the only mom there with a old junk car picking up there kids. I suggested we can go look for another car this week end. She said, there is no we, and no thank you i will do it myself. I said well you keep my offer in mind. She said no thanks, i will buy one when i can pay for it. end of call.
So she is still poed. Maybe her anger towards me is part of not living with OM now. Most likely. I was a bit surprised she did not even attempt to call OM last night. I checked the phone at least a dozen times last night and listened very closely for her voice and nothing. I can only hope things with OM are not all peachy right now. Yes, sounds like she if planning for her final escape. I agree it a very important time for me to make as much ground up right now as possible. I will keep researching MB for more help. The cost is high, but probably could use another chat with SH right about now.

Thank you for your very kind words. I don't think I will accept your nomination for rookie of the year. Rather think I'm the leading canidate for dumb _uck of the year or the last four to five. When i reflect back on this year since WW started her relationship with OM in March, all the caution flags were waving, even red flags and i blew right past them with my head up my you know what. I feel so stupid and horrible for how i treated the most important part of my life. I hurt my wife so much she thought that i did not even care about her anymore. When i think back over and replay the years since i started racing and she was there doing all she could to love me the only way she new how and i just hurt her. Yes, the hammer and screw is a great analogy. I know i laid the grounds for her affair. She just got so worn down and tired of waiting for me to return. The man she fell in love with was gone for so long she finally gave up on me. It is so tragic. I know she loves me and wishes we could work deep in side. She even told SH that. She told me she can and has forgiven me. She just can't forget. Her thought process is all screwed up now. She says she remembers situations where i hurt her and those memories make it hard for her to not think negitive about me. That is true. I have ask her to not always look at the glass half empty but half full. She always picks the bad out of all the great things i have done for her. I know right now that is the script of a WW.

You have identified what the problems were. Now is the time to accept that you made mistakes and stop beating yourself up over it. I am sorry to say, but it sounds like your W is one that takes advantage of knowing that about you. You cannot take control of yourself if you are constantly feeling guilty over what was. When it is brought up again, as it seems it will...simply say, "yes I was wrong in being that way but that was then and this is now." There is nothing to be accomplished by going over and over the past. It drags you down and keeps you from moving forward. You must keep doing this over and over consistantly and back it up with actions...that will show your W that you mean it.

WW just called me a couple seconds ago. She asked if she or me was going to pick up DD after work. I suggested she do it. My reason was keep her from visiting with OM after work which was her routine. She accepted and then started in about being the only mom there with a old junk car picking up there kids. I suggested we can go look for another car this week end. She said, there is no we, and no thank you i will do it myself. I said well you keep my offer in mind. She said no thanks, i will buy one when i can pay for it. end of call.

Okay so when the car comes up again you have your answer and she gave it to you....a simple...yes we talked about it and you made your wishes perfectly clear. If you change your mind I will be happy to help you pick another one out...then change the subject.


So she is still poed. Maybe her anger towards me is part of not living with OM now. Most likely. I was a bit surprised she did not even attempt to call OM last night. I checked the phone at least a dozen times last night and listened very closely for her voice and nothing. I can only hope things with OM are not all peachy right now. Yes, sounds like she if planning for her final escape. I agree it a very important time for me to make as much ground up right now as possible. I will keep researching MB for more help. The cost is high, but probably could use another chat with SH right about now.

I am a little worried about your statment of making up as much ground as possible. It is a process that cannot be rushed and the last thing you want to do is smother your W ...first it will make her even more angry and second it will really not accomplish anything except wear you out. Yes you need to show her through your actions that you really have changed, but you also need to show her that being with you can be fun. Keep life light; do things yourself and with your D making sure that you ask W to take part; that way she has the option and in the end can see what she is missing. Don't make the mess the focus...make having fun the focus. Don't drag it down with all the negative heavy relationship talk right now. That will come when you can really talk about it honestly. Right now you have to lay the groundwork for that to happen.

Reading your posts it is as if you are in panic mode a lot of time. Don't react...when you feel like you are going to, stop and remove yourself from the situation and look at from a different perspective. That way you can take positive action.

Why are you offering to get her a car when she has not done anything yet to earn your trust? Trust that she will not cheat on you again. Trust that she will not hurt you and your DD again merely to pursue her happiness.

Things may be looking up, but please be cautious about believing/expecting more than is warranted.

Here's the deal.

YourWW IS SPOILED...SHE IS ACTING LIKE A ROTTEN CHILD!

I don't believe she is home for good. the apartment ads in her purse show she is still locked into the fantasy world.

SHE IS CAKEATING LIKE MAD!

I honestly believe that this woman would do anything to get to have best of both worlds...a OM to take care of her "womanly" needs and feel romance...and a H to fix things...buy her a car...

Actions at school were so she can get way and get a car. And have you thought that maybe she deliberately wanted an outburst so OM's mom could "witness it" and she could once again be the "torn wife...living with a demanding and evil H".??? I believe the school scene was preconceived. Planned.

I see her fantasy life and "get it"...she wants a love nest w/om. New Car. New apartment. And gets EN's fulfilled by playing you both. When OM is not giving her attention she wants, she will call you up and cry and confess her "mistakes".

If a WS comes home and wants to work on a marriage...then why would they secretly...I mean SECRETLY be looking for another dwelling?

Again, this woman has no concept as of rock bottom as of yet.

She has no clue that 10 an hour can get you in life. She thinks apartments and cars and stuff like that?

She has to hit bottom....the high's are what keeps a WS a WS...

I know this. My xh has not yet hit rock bottom...almost impossible b/c of his income. It will have to be a personal crisis I believe. But that day imho is coming!

I have wanted to tell you this...I believe she says only what you want to hear...so that you will continue to see she's fed and clothed. She is pretending my friend to be torn...

I think she knows what she wants.

And you have to open the door to let her find it. And hit rock bottom...and not be there to save her.

Plan B is not just about saving your love. It is about saving your sanity and respect. I also like the "b" approach that love must be tough encourages.

You can feed her more cake...and feed her fantasylife..or feed her a dose of reality...called how to live on 10 an hour when you've time and again abandoned your family.

It is still all about her. I believe her fog is still present..never had chance to leave.

UVA- Okay here is my reason for my offer to help her find another car. 1) My offer to help now ends her continued line of crap about me not helping her with her car. It ends the conversation that she usually tries to leverage me into a fight with. I'm preventing another fight. Will she take me up on my offer? I think that's a snow ball's chance in hhell of happening. She is a very stubborn women that will not accept anything from me right now. It's in her capacity to be a huge _itch that enjoys a good argument but, she has always had to much pride to accept hand outs.
2) Me offering to help find her a car shows compassion and I care for her. The truth is, her car is really broken. The engine is burning water and pumping it out on the ground. The car over heats when driven more than five miles at a time. Do I plan on paying for it if she took me up? No, she would not let me anyway. She has already talk to our banker about getting a loan in her name only. She learned she can't afford the payment on a car she wants. Again she is learning what kind of major life style changes she is facing by leaving me. The guy that paid for everything for 15 years. The same guy that she tells people never bought her anything and she never had money to spend. ha ha. Her $10 an hour will not buy her the car she wants or the style of apartment she wants. Where can you buy a five your old house or newer, drive a Lexus or Lincoln LS, dress in new trendy cloths, where the finest make up, make regular trips to the salon, eat at good restaurants on a $10 an hour job? She's now trying to figure that out.
I curious about what is going on with OM and fantasy island. I think his last day at there work place is today. I wish I new where he was going to work at. The city we live in is not that big. Good chance I know some one that can help me where ever he has landed. I sure would like to help him start his new job off on the right foot. lol
Oh-yah I set up an appointment for the WW to take our dog to the vet over her lunch break. Again, trying to keep her busy over lunch to avoid possible contact with OM.
UPDATE-
WW is really poed with me. She is learning that the damage she has done to DD12 will not be healed over night just by mommy returning home. DD12 is still angry with her and hurt. WW is so stupid she thinks I'm to blame for DD12 not being happy with her cheating, lieing, promise breaking mommy. I believe that WW is punishing me for her return trip home. She made no attempts to leave or contact OM last night. WW is very angry and standoffish right now. I did not fight with her last night at all. She tried to goad me several times and she said a lot of typical fog babble. I didn't give in. Instead me and daughter ate dinner by ourselves. We invited WW, she declined. We watched tv in the other room together, after WW told me she did not want me in the same room with her. That went along way to make DD12 feel good about her. lol. DD12 asked me for permission to go to a friends house Friday and spend the night while WW was standing there. That POED WW. She got mad because she is no longer in charge of the household. WW rambled off more crap at me about being super dad and she is just a piece of _hit. DD12 and me had a friendly conversation about plans for the week end and how her day went. That POED WW too. WW says she is now a stranger in our house and to our DD12. I suggested she join us and be a part of what we are doing this week end. She turned me down. I encouraged her to be a part of what me and DD12 wanted to do this week end. She declined.
WW finally had enough when she asked DD12 go to Wal-mart with her around 8pm. DD12 turned her down saying she would rather chat with her friend on the phone about the week end and a birthday party she is going to. WW could not understand why DD12 is not just jumping for joy to be with her. WW accussed me of turning DD12 against her again. I just said, I'm sorry you feel that way. DD12 loves you very much. She is just hurting. Give her time to heal and earn her trust. WW aske me to leave the room. I did, then WW shortly there after went up to bed for the evening.

Dazed,

You said

Do you see the part I put in bold? Well look at it carefully and tell me you really think this will end her fighting with you. You are a fool if you think that. She has learned that when she fights with you, cheats on you, YOU reward her. So guess what she is doing and will do in the future? Got a clue? I sure do, the same thing because it works. Next you say
So if she is going to pay for it, why do you need to be involved with the car? Give me a break. If she is going to pay for it, then she doesn't need you. If you are she does.

Guess which way this is going? At $10/hr it is hard to imagine she is going to get much of a loan, unless someone co-signs for it. Got any clues who might do that? YOU??? OM???? Hello, it is time for plan B or at least some serious boundaries.

Wake UP!

God Bless,

JL

Well, I would have bluntly asked WW to put herself in DD's shoes for a bit. How would SHE feel about what's been going, how WW has treated her, how the entire family life is disrupted by what's been going on???

I'd tell her that I'm not doing it to make her feel 'guilty'...but that in order for her to start healing this rift between her and DD she needs to understand WHY DD is acting this way, instead of simply assuming that it's all YOUR fault.

She needs to understand that you're not doing ANYTHING...you might even ask her how/what SPECIFICALLY you're doing to undermine your wife's relationship with DD?

Do all of this in a calm tone of voice, and do NOT get angry no matter what she says or does. Again, one of the BEST tactics to deal with someone like this is to keep getting quieter and quieter every time she starts yelling. Force her to LISTEN for your responses...take time after she finishes her shouts to frame your responses, and do so QUIETLY and CALMLY. Seriously, take it to just above a whisper (sotto voice is good)...and keep it there for as long as she continues her tirades.

This will eventually start to drive her nuts, and will point out where all the ANGER is really coming from.

We had similar issues for a while with my DD18 when my wife returned to the house after ending her EA. She left the house for about a week (was living in a motel in our area) while pending flying away to meet and live with OM. Our daughter was MAD at my wife...went into our bedroom and packed up all of her stuff within the first two days of my wife being out of the house. Refused to have almost anything to do with my wife for about two months afterwards. And I REFUSED to let my wife put the blame for that on me while she was still in the fog...just wasn't going to happen. I used the tactics I described above...and after a while it started to work.

Hang in there. Keep NC in place, and continue to plan A as best as you can without LB's...she should eventually come out of the fog and slowly you'll see her come back from the mother ship.

Touche! Rewards for baaaaad behaviors!

That's what you'd be doing.

Again, she needs to hit rock bottom.

Let OM buy her a car.

If she wants the apartment,OM, car, etc...call up the guy and see if he's financially able to support her and also to make sure if both of them are able financially to PAY you child support of DD.

LEt's see how mr. wonderful does this!

How does Ms. Wonderful do this on 10 an hour?

OM is gladly allowing you to do the money handouts. Heck, it's less he has to worry about. You do the money thing for WW...he does the other stuff.

Please let her hit rock bottom.

I do not think she is out of the fog or anywhere close.

Be prepared and have plan B ready in back pocket. Her swift departure could come at any time.

She is being downright mean, nasty, and not at all helpful to a peaceful family environment. Her actions while in the home towards your DD shows me a woman who does not want to be part of a family at all. She is nothing but resentful.

She is destroying your peace. She can't eat, participate, or do anything productive right now. And it is sad...your daughter is seeing all this happen.

My fear is that you'll be at a counselor for your DD soon if this keeps up! She's dealing with issues now faaaaar beyond what a child that age should have to deal with.

Plan B imho is looming closer. When it's time, WW needs to be put out of home. And the OM needs to pay for her and see how fast that 10 an hour can keep W happy. I'd file for temporary custody and a sep. agreement. Make WW and OM pay for CS!

If she dreams of a lexus and clothes, and a fancy apartment...she'd better wake up.

I swear...reading about her is like reading about a 15 year old girl. She is extremely immature in her fantasy thinking.

I knew you all would kick me...
I'm not paying for a car. I know she will not even pursue it. She is just wanting to fight and change the history books to make the be the bad guy and justify her screwed up way of thinking and justify her sleezy so called EA with OM.
Here is something to think about...
OM's divorce hiring is November 7th. Should I try to contact OM's soon to be EXW and see if there is anything I can provide her to help before the hiring. The last I knew she was going to pay him 11k to close the deal.
Knowing WW has no only 100-500 dollars in her checking account at any time, 2500 credit open on plastic. Maybe WW is dreaming of OM financing her for a place to live or divorce attourney. However, I was told by OM's soon to be exw, that OM was going to use that money to either pay for his truck that is in her name or a down payment on the crapy apartment that he is living in that his daddy owns.
OM's exw told me his is real bad with money so who knows what he has planned.
I'm sure i will learn a lot more about WW and OM's status this week end. Now that all her stuff is home. I don't think she has went a week end with out him since D-day.
Which leads me to a question i have had for some time now.
Why did there affair step it up a level or two after d-day?
After I confronted her, proved to her I knew. Exposed them to family and friends. It was that week end she first spent the night with him in his apartment. I know of only one other night they might have spent the entire night together. I asked WW this and she could only look at me with a stupid look on her face.
got to go for now
Dazed..

Dazed,
Don't think that everyone is ready to give you the boot. When I read your post I did not think that you had offered to buy the car, only to help her look for one. I do not see the problem in that.

As for your question...stay out of the OM divorce. First of all it really has nothing to do with you and second anything you do on that front is going to be construed by your wife as prying, controlling, and provide reason for her to keep up with the us against them fantasy. That is probably also part of the reason for her running to him after exposure. It was suddenly them against the world, which it seems did not take long for her to figure out was not so peachy.

A question here....do you have your ducks in a row? Have you a plan in place for the 'if this happens then this is what I will do'? That will take a lot of pressure off if you have this in place. Also what happened with your lawyer?

This is my plan.
Practice plan A on her for as long as six months or until affair has ended. If affair is still on after six months, move to plan B. Her early exit from the house to his apartment presented some obvious problems to my plan A and forced me to seek legal council and Plan B. Actually I have paid for the divorce. Even the sheriff fee to serve her. The only thing lacking is my name on the dotted line. My lawyer adviced me that he believes i should file. However, he claims to never give advice but. He can tell that my heart is not into it and it appears that she must be on the fence herself. His last words to me was, for you and your daughter it is in your best interest to file for the divorce, seek full custody and all the assets. If you are not 100% ready to never be with this woman ever again and or you feel she will not harm you or your child, then wait.
WW has moved all her stuff back home this week. So, I'm back to plan A. I do not know what to do from here. The obvious what if scenario's are:
1) She does not end affair:
1a) I catch her with him again:
1b) I catch her on our home phone with him again:
2) She is only home for her daughter, and does not want to work on the marriage:
3) She leaves home again:
4) She ask me to leave our home:
5) She files legal sep or divorce on me:
6) She becomes violent again on me or daughter:
I need to work on planned responses to these possible events. At this time I don't have a plan for them.
Also setting up rules and boundries have not happened. She is still very angry with me. She is blamming me for the problems in our marriage, problems at he work, Problems with our friends and family, Problems with daughter, and now I think with OM. We all know that is WW fog and is expected. However, she is not ready to work on our marriage not to mention have rules placed on her. She is currently at a girl friends house. Atleast this one is married and from WW's comments is pro-marriage and has recommended she come back and work on our marriage. She had told WW the perks to coming back. Like he is ready to love you the way you have always wanted. Before WW left she told me she was not going to see OM and not to worry she would be coming back tonight. Well just to check her out, I have ran servailance on OM's place ever since 10 minutes after WW left. OM is home alone in is daddys apartment. Yeah, she may be on the phone with him from the girl friends, but that is better than in his love nest. I personally think not everything is peachy in fantasy land at OM's. I think that is why she is so angry with me. I think she is only home out of default right now and is trying to punish me for bursting the fantasy island bubble. Maybe I reading to much into it, but I think her behavior supports this theory. If she was angry with OM or ready to can him, I think she would be warm towards me not really angry with me. I think I'm the bad guy that has ruined her little fantasy life. Keep in mind she is not a fighter when the going gets tough she's a quiter. She is stubborn and hard headed, but she also has no capacity for pressure or stress. She is a light load person that would rather run from work than jump in and get it done.
I think that is the way she is looking at our marriage. There is so much work and repair needed for us to heal. I think she is trying to decide if she can just quit and start over or stay and face all the work. Knowing her this is a thought she is thinking. She told me just today. I love you and will forever. I care about you and worry about how you are and if you can take care of yourself, our daughter and the house. It's just that so many things have been done and said. I just don't know if i can face it all. Not right now.
This is where I'm at. Everyones advice is much appreciated.
Thanks
Dazed

Well i'm and idiot... what else can i say. She made me a fool once again.
I just caught her with him in a parking lot. She dropped her car after leaving the house. She has spent the entire evening in his apartment. While watching his place, little did i know she was already inside. They came out at 12:30am to take her back to her car dropped across town. I waited till they made it to the drop point. Then approched them as they sat in his truck. I would have liked to shot the ****** but i remained calm and peacefull and waited for her to get out of his truck. Told her to go home. Then just spent the last 1-1/2 calmly lecturing her about what she is doing to herself, her daughter and me. I explained how imoral this is, disrespectful they both are, and how she is addicted to this man. I some how remained calm for the most part. I did some yelling and love bustering as soon as we got in the house but soon calmed and just explained what she is doing. I did not demand but suggested she find a IC asap to help her. Also, suggested we both meet with a MC to research and see if there is a chance. I also suggested she start NC now and we do a 3 month plan to give us one last shot. Then at the end of 90 days, we don't see any progress or hope, she can see if her addiction is indeed true love (yuk) then she can go be with the loser. Jeezzz what should i do now. Was i to nice. I feel like I should have pulled his [censored] out that truck beat him down, and kicked her _hit to the curb, call the lawyer in the morning and giter done.
I suspect tomorrow she will hit the road again... I guess i will see.
I'm so poed right now. I want to beat some one or something just to feel better. God i need your help. You know my wife was my best friend, for that matter the only one i took personal issue to. I have no one to vent this stuff to. Thank god Daughter is not home tonight. You know i'm actually weighing the cost vs. reward of beating that puke into a warm pile of _hit. I know he's driving by my house right now. If i got him to stop and got him on my property then its on like donkey kong.
Dazed

I am not gonna do any 2x4'ing.

But what I am gonna say is this.

What you are doing NOW is NOT working.

You catch her and lecture her for 1.5 hours like a child?

I will suggest you stop this stuff and do a quickie 48 hr plan a beginning today.

And on monday...turn to B and kick WW to the curb.

Do you see what she's doing? She is lying to both of you!

She can't get one story straight and uses friends to lie for her or either involves them involuntarily in her lies.

She can't do NC...she has NO MOTIVATION TO DO THAT! How many times has she said 1)I am so sorry I am hurting you...I don't know what to do or 2)not participated in family events or even lied to your DD?

She COULD do NC if the woman had MOTIVATION TO DO SO.

Motivation for this woman would be ROCK BOTTOM.
I would calmly say say...tomorrow to your WW...let's go to lunch. I need to talk to you. Then say nothing else all morning.

I would spend all of today when I was not plan A'ing writing the letter...the PBL.

Tomorrow at lunch I would be kind, gentle, and make it as though you are "breaking up with her"....she'd take it less easily this way. I'd tell her you love her, but this whole stench of the affair is NOT making YOU a good person anymore. And that YOU need time alone because this has been so damaging and that your D needs to not be exposed to this anymore b/c the trauma is just so much...I would tell her that you expect her to leave on monday morning and that she is not welcomed in your home unless she agrees to the content of the letter you are giving her..and is able to do so for 3 months.

I would end this in saying that OM can pay for all this. He can walk in my shoes for a while and I hope he likes it all. We can't take anymore. I'd say that this is only way you can deal with this now. That she's had time after time to prove her honesty and integrity and that she cannot.

She is like a runaway 15 year old girl. Running her...doing sob story to OM...getting EN's filled up...then feeling guilty and running back...getting few remaining EN's filled up by you and DD...and then SHE NEEDS A FIX AND IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH ON HER OWN TO DO SO...

You can't lecture to somebody.

REPEAT: WS DO NOT RECEIVE LECTURES OR MB'ING STUFF WELL...IT IS A FACT...WHEN THEY'RE WAYWARD YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO AND TALK TO A POTATOE.

You are also hugely lb'ing her by taking on role of parole officer, judge, and sadly of all...her father.

That will be how she is perceiving you right now...controlling, domineering, and she will rebel.

I know you want to control this...BUT MAN YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL WHAT YOU DO...YOU CANNOT CONTROL YOUR WW.

The only way to make this affair crash is to force her hand.

If she wants that 10 an hour job, the apartment fantasy, the new car, the I want this...that...and OM too..well give him to her! Let's give him an unstable WW! Let's see how he does!

I would also visit my lawyer to make sure that we get sep. papers filed. NOT divorce, just separation.

I would still file and state OM's NAME IN THEM...as one reason...another I'd file is emotional cruelty. And I would legally make sure OM can't get around DD.

I would also further expose and let OMW know what he has done and is doing...find family members of OM and expose to them.

She wants this insanity...she wants to rip her family apart...she wants to have cake...then let her have it.

I tried gently to tell you what she was up to. She is full blown living the fantasy right now. She had her little apartment clippings in her purse...she picked a fight about a vehicle...(which she stupidly wants YOU to pay for) and she picked fight at OM's mom's school where she could likely provoke a scene thus further turning you into an "ogre" type husband.

This has taken a turn I don't like my friend.

With your grasping for control, you're losing grip of the situation...it is now controlling you.

Make your home peaceful and happy. How many times can I say it? Your WW is destroying it for your DD too. She has had NO motivation to change. And you can't force it...But you can take actions on your end to stop the insanity and lies and upheaval.

There comes a time when you gotta say, "this is NOT working".

Einstein's definition of insanity: keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the outcome to be different.

That is what you are trying to do. Well maybe a little longer plan A...and you discuss scenarios why It may not work...a 1a and 1b and so on...

This is up to you. I know it is. Nobody can say or make YOU do anything either. I am just seeing and maybe it's because I am a woman too, but I think I have good perception what and why she is doing what she is doing. Us females as I would suspect, have different ways to attack a male as a WS. I wouldn't know as I've not been wayward, but I've heard and know what my xh's owmen used to do. And say...and act.

I'd make today as good as possible. Towards evening, I might actually begin getting some boxes out ...or wash all her dirty clothes. AGain, sweet..but will make her think ..that is if she even is home.

And then again, this is saturday. WW may want to just simply NOT come home at all. Sat night is party night right? She may just not feel like it. Either way, she gets the talk and the boot and the LETTER.

You must think of your child now. I am so sorry for her pain. But as her RESPONSIBLE parent YOU MUST PUT YOUR CHILD FIRST NOW SINCE YOUR WW IS DAMAGING HER..Do you want your daughter dealing with this woman day to day? Please get your DD into IC with a loving and faith centered counselor. I am worried sick about DD!

Now take some appropriate actions and deal with this horrible WW of yours. I am sorry to say horrible. I am referring to her actions.

I don't know what tools this woman has got to use, but darn it! I wish i knew! She's capable of having not one man...but two eating out of the palm of her hand.

justpeachy - Are you Dan Quayle in real life? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Dazed - She is right on.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-not that my spelling is any butter.

Post deleted by UVA

By the way, I would follow up on Justpreachy's advice by filing on Monday, so you can be on the best footing legally for any potential custody battles. For if you kick her out, she may file first against you and try to get you to leave your home.

Remember, you can always reconcile later...when she is ready.

Ok...Mr. Wonderings my friendly neighbor... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do lean towards right...literally...and used to think I wanted to marry a lawyer...ala Dan! My college bf was one..

POTATO..OR TOMATO..OR POTATOE...OR TOMATOE...?

And UVA..gently I will say this..

Dazed is NOT a fool. He is a man desperate to save his family.

He is going about it the wrong way though.

Now Dazed...

Just get angry after reading what I wrote...then think on it.

You cannot let emotions run on you. And all the good advice in the world can't help WW now.

Dobson, in Love Must Be Tough, gives a diagram of literally what happens when one partner is cheating and considering leaving...the betrayed partner clings even more tightly to the cheating partner...and thus, repelling away the cheating partner. Dobson says to let cage door fly open! Give em' waht they want. Like Plan B. I did combo of both. And Dobson is a Christian psychologist whom I respect very much...not anti family or anti faith what he says to do either.

Your only hope is to let her go. Let OM pay for everything...I mean EVERYTHING. You write up a darn good pbletter...take wifey to lunch tomorrow. Wear a great looking outfit...and do the wierd things around house tonight...like get her clothes washed etc...you're really packing them up...she doesn't get it yet.

Tomorrow at lunch, tell her that you want her to take some MORE time off work (since the affairees have probably already squandered time off to have affair)so that she can pack and move out when YOUR DAUGHTER IS NOT HOME. That she will do it tomorrow morning.

That she is not welcome in your home until she meets conditions of your plan B letter. And if she is never ready...then you are fully prepared to go on with your life and search for a real princess to spoil...and somebody who can treat your daughter as a princess as well!

WW needs to wake up and smell the coffee...

I think she is a particularly bad WW because of the emotional and mental trauma she has put you and your daughter through. Now I am not siding with OM..but she has most likely played him too and he has no idea what is truth vs. what is reality with her. She has probably painted you as an ogre, overbearing, no sex, all that stuff. I know ...my xh actually told an OW...told her that he ahd been divorced...had SOLE custody of my child...and that I was locked in an insane asylum...and that it ws a real tragedy what HAPPENED TO ME...and that he's been alone all this time with A LIVE IN NANNY!

Wow. Not only was I the live in nanny in XWH's fantasy, but I was also locked away in an insane asylum as well! Anybody that knows me...can say definitely the opposite! I druge housework...and I was elected state prez of my medical society and served 2 years as prez...it's kinda hard to attempt to do that and work if you're in the home for wackaloons!

See how they lie and spin? I mean...the ow found my wedding portrait (which is gorgeous and still on display 9 years later at the photographer back in TN..)and said "Oh my God...she's so pretty."

So he created a story to go along with that. A great tragedy where he had to pick up his life and move on...divorce his insane yet lovely bride...get full custody of his son...work about 70 hours a week...and rely on a full time nanny to run things. Oh poor prince charming!

BLEEEEEEEEEEECH!

See the WS? Do you see how it's done yet? Smoke and mirrors to both YOU and the OM...and to your D.

You can't change her..

YOU CAN CHANGE THE WAY YOU'RE LIVING YOUR LIFE AND STOP THE WW INSANITY AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE.

Ok, I retract the "fool" part. It may have been too harsh. I apologize for it. And yes, I understand the pain and confusion that go with dealing with a WS. Nonetheless, Dazed needs to wake up and make the hard the decisions that will give him a chance to save his M, since that's what he really wants in the end.

He does want this! He sure does.

But he's going about it all the wrong way...again...change my darn name here to PREACHY instead of Peachy!

Thank you for your kind retraction. He does need encouragement...and his WW needs the boot!

Dazed...please try to know we just want you to try what has NOT been done...and maybe only effective thing.

She's struggled with this choice for months now...it's time to move past plan A. And I think you've done a good job with it...well...until you caught her, drug her home, and lectured to her for 1.5 hours.

You'd best end with a good plan A...and lunch.

Please also realize, that more controlling behaviors from you...will be perceived as LB's...and some women would and could get an RO against you for it. Especially if she feels threatened. Don't put it past OM to place that thought in her head. You need to be there for child. Only way WW gets child, is for Dad to be deemed unfit...or violent!

Get it???

I am saying to THINK NOW...NO TIME FOR REACTIONS...JUST THINKING.

I'd apologize to her. I'd be kind, sweet, loving, and be the best H you can be if she is home now. Then I'd lower the boom tomorrow afternoon at lunch.

Do not give this woman any leeway ok? She does not need it...

Think now. You have to show her the darkness she has created...the sucking black hole! You could at some point in near future be her lighthouse.

But she must bottom out first.

And you must not let WW get upper hand...and not appear domineering or pushy or borderline violent..or she could in her fog...decide to place RO on you! Lots of women do this...even OW do it!

peach-
Thank you for kicking me and providing directions to help lead me out of my fog. UVA-- I am a fool. Love fool for my lost wife. Yes, that does little to help me know.
Today WW left me very little oppourtunity to plan A. She says I handeled this all wrong, and turned everyone against her so she just wants out now. She says she would rather just start over her life than try to repair us. She attacked me for every short coming in her life again this morning before her sister called. Her sister tried to give her perspective of her imoral affair and how she is breaking daughters heart. That just turned into a huge shouting match over the phone. After about 10 rounds and hanging up on each other, WW mother calls to see how she is doing. Great timing. She exploded on her mother accusing her of dragging all ker skeletons out of the closet for her entire family to know about. Very bad stuff i might add.
That phone call ended in WW telling her mother she was never going to be seen from again and not to worry. WW began to attact me and accuse me of doing all this to her. I remained calm and setting down the whole time. She told me this is why she wants out. She can not deal with all this and would rather just forget we all ever existed. She even said i could just have daughter and asked that i take good care of her and try to find a new wife that would love her like her own. WW actually said maybe she can have another baby that will love her. About that time the police knocked on the door. WW mother called them to make sure she was not going to hurt herself and make sure we were not fighting. WW tried to hide and not talk to the officer, however I let the officer in and WW had to visit with her. She told the police that she never said that stuff and to tell her mother that she is 32 years old and don't need her watching over her. Officer asked me in private if she was stable or not, I replied border line at best. She filled out a report witch really poed WW. After that WW took a shower and left.
I will complete my PLB tonight, give it to her either tomorrow or Monday morning before see is legally served.
I'm now off to spend the evening with my daughter at her cousins birthday party.

Good! She is angry and unstable! Exposure has worked well because it PO'd her to the max! And the police report is good for your custody issue if it comes to fruitition.

I told you she'd use last night as an excuse to run.

She is BLOWING SMOKE ABOUT NOT BEING HEARD FROM AGAIN AND THE BABY PART.

It is spin and blame and she's trying to gain sympathy for herself...Poor me WW... My mean evil H told everybody my dark little secret! My Daughter is mad at me! My family thinks I am a harlot and a horrid mother as well as amoral! Nobody likes me. I have NO CHOICE BUT TO RUN INTO HOME OF MOM. (married other man)'

The comment about the baby was below the belt btw.

Very tacky of her...well come to think about it, everything she does as of now is tacky.

Now OM INHERITS THIS WOMAN! Oh what a loving gem she is! Screamingh, crying, freaky, and unstable! Plus she has little money.

Let them live on affair love and 10 bucks and hour!

Let them plan their little future. No child support in the WW fantasy for her car or her apartment now! No. She's a mother who abandoned her own child! She's unstable in eyes of law~

Deliver letter. Serve her.. Ask for full custody. Go totally dark. Do NOT give in to her.

People who cry for help are notoriously NOT the ones who do anything to themselves btw. It is all to gain some leverage over you and she's so desperate now it's crazy!

I would have all her bags packed, makeup, everything she "needs" and have it sent over to OM home tomorrow morning. Let him meet her unstable needs.

She will be shaking in her boots come tuesday I guarantee you!

DO NOT ACCEPT A HASTY RECONCILIATION...THIS WOMAN IS EXCEPTIONALLY WAYWARD AND NEEDS TO WORK HER WAY HOME IF IT IS TO EVER BE...

This could go either way...and you need to accept it. Thankfully WW is digging her own legal grave right now and it secures the fact your DD will be with you custody wise. That's good. Who wants their kids around unstable wayward people anyway? I wish I had the option you have gotten now. Mine was due to bad timing and fact darth has a gazillion times more money than me. But I still have a bit more than he does custody wise...and am waiting for one more fatal flaw from him before I start up again with doing what is right.

This story reads like a soap opera plot. You let yourself get walked all over, she's out banging the other guy nightly, vebally abusive to your kid, and yet you still want her back? All this plan A or B stuff is fogging your brain. get the lawyer, kick her out, and file for divorce.

LOL......at the post above... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> it's not funny ofcourse......but this is a really perfect example of how people miss the boat with "fighting for their marriage" and at the costs of any self respect or self dignity...This is being a doornat, and is NOT MARRIAGE BUILDING or a quest for PERSONAL RECOVERY. This is beyond anything resembling healthy...

Not much else to add.

The original poster doesn't "get it" and has been given excellent advice over and over again, and yet he insists on doing things "his way"...so he will continue to get "his results".

Sad, but it is reality.

You cannot help people who don't want to help themselves.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

jp- Thank you so much! Your steady direction even when I'm at my worst is so very kind of you. I have done pretty much as you have suggested. Last night WW called me from Wal-mart. Don't really know why. She just wanted to check my pulse i think. So, I took full advantage of the opp. I very nicely told her I have to move on and let her go. She remained calm and quite. I talked for 15 or 20 minutes very kindly breaking up with her basically a primer for the PBL. At this point I had to end the phone call. She just kept hanging on the line. A major roll reversal there, i might add. I went on the the b-day party. Let sil take d home to spend the night. I went on home to do laundry, watch tv, pack up WW, and think about my PBL. Much to my surprise WW walks in around 9:45. She ask where D was. I told her, she replied: I really have lost her huh. I gave her no reply. She sets done on the other couch to watch tv. I barely spoke to her. I offered a pop while i was getting myself one. That was it. After about an hour-1/2 I went on up to bed. About 15 minutes later WW comes upstairs. We made up like mad. Just kidding!!! I had you on that one huh... No she did come in the room and stood there for a minute. I didn't even open my eyes. She went on to D room and went to sleep there. This morning she did wonder into our room and did get into bed with me. However, I ignored her. After I took a couple of phone calls she started trying to talk to me. She says; BS you will never forgive me and think of me the same again. You will probably hold this over my head forever. Everyone hates me know even D. I was so alone while you were gone all the time. I live so long in solitude. We have crap for families, and very few friends. We lived such a dull life and you were gone so much. I had to fill the gaps with other people because i missed you so much. Over the years you did many great things for me and us. It was not all bad. However, I always remember the bad things. As time went by you seemed to always take and take and there was never any time for me and what I wanted. I felt I gave all the time and then just began to feel used. Then I said, well WW i'm guilty of neglecting you and like i said so many times, i have made the changes in my life so i will no longer neglect my daughter or the woman i love. I will not argue that I have made many mistakes. However, I now know what i did wrong. In reflection of our 15 years i can see how we got off track and how my actions contributed to us being here today. I'm changing for the better. I'm using history to improve my future. I do realize i had a part in making it so the first worthless loser that shown interest in you could still you away.
However, how do you plan on living a life of fun with out being lonely and solitude. You need to work on your future as well. You need to understand why you could not communicate with me. You worked so hard to reach me but failed. We need to understand that and why you felt so lonely and in solitude that you had to confide in another person that was not me. You have it in you mind all the reason's why we can't work. I have all the reason's why we could but it's you that must deal figure this out. I'm not perfect and no one is but, your negitivity and depression is something you need to deal with no matter where or how you are with. If you choose to find the bad in me then you will. If you want to find all the reasons why we will never work again then you will. It's all in your way of thinking WW. I love you WW but I don't love us.
She says nothing for another half hour. As I'm almost a sleep again she ask if i need her to continue to give me a part of her paycheck for bills. I declined and told her she will need it. She ask if i will be able to keep the house and things. I said: i will make it one way or another, you need to worry about yourself. She said she did not want anything other than her car and cloths. I will have daughter, house and everything else.
After another 10 minutes:
She ask me if i regreted moving last year. Kinda weird. I said: yes, only in two aspects. I miss the house i built for us. I spent 10 years and all my spare time building a house out of a labor of my love for us. The other thing is I wish we could have corrected our marriage before we moved to a city of many oppourtunities. Even though our marriage was lemping there was no one for you to run to. She agreed. I think she was just reflecting on our marriage and the good times we spent in our other home and town. Mainly because she has been with MOM ever since we moved.
She made the commit she wishes she was dead. I got up and showered. She came by the bath room and watched me shave and do my hair. I ignored her. Later she asked if she could clean the house. I replied do you plan on taking your stuff tonight or what. She looked near tears and ran off to the bath room. A few minutes later she came back out. Approached me looking sad. I told her she looked nice and I told her was going to lunch by my self, and I left.
The plan B letter is written and ready. Peachy, you suggested filing legal separation and RO against MOM for daughter and custody. Do you think I should do this rather than the divorce papers?
Another side bar: WW's mom suggested I do the same thing and ask that they do a drug test on WW. She is 100% supportive of me and can't believe what WW has done either.
Oh, and get this. MIL called yesterday right. MIL was actually calling for me to see if i needed her to come over and help with daughter and do house work. he he.. If this was not real it would be funny.
By the way lemonman: what qualifies you as a master jedi anyway?
dazed

Wow. Big developments. And many positive things. Congratulations.

I am no expert BUT (of course I have an opinion…) she has seen the darkness. She has seen the end and how the gates are closing behind her. That is good. But are you sure she sees the way back? I take it you want her back?

It sounds like she really wants back but either does not see a road back or realizes she has that option.

When you do the Plan B letter make sure the road back is clearly paved.

Yes – this does sound like a soap opera. Make sure you get a copyright. If you can get a happy ending you could sell the plot for $$$$

Dazed, I think you did great. Follow up on your plans and don't get caught up in WW's pity party. She needs to hit bottom. She is close, but she is not there yet. Plan B is just what she needs.

I am curious, do you know what Plan B entails? It entails no contact except with respect to DD's custody issues. Are you ready for it?

I will say she is close...and UVA is right as well as my fellow Jedi Lemon! (I am a jedi princess...lol)

But she is NOT broken!

Problems here I see...
1)she is flip flopping like mad! Maybe you should buy this waffle queen a waffle maker for xmas!
2)she is unstable emotionally. I believe she maybe on drugs or dependent on alcohol or something...BUT THAT IS HER PROBLEM AND NOT YOURS AND MAKES FOR AN UNSTABLE MOM EITHER WAY...ADDICTION OR INSTABILITY.
3)She sees the MONEY TRAIN IS LEAVING! Yea, she sees it. She sees her options closing.
4)She is a MASTER MANIPULATOR and I am sick of seeing her fake tears. She does this whole "I'd LIKE to come back BUT" routine on you every few days.
5)She is not a good mom. She has lost it! She is just saying she's "lost" your daughter. Are her actions showing otherwise? ARe they otherwise. WE JUDGE PEOPLE NOT BY WORDS BUT BY ACTIONS.

Her actions show me that she is unstable, lying, cheating, and eating cake. She wants your money, house, stability, and "label" of being sqeaky clean W...but deep down she can't leave OM..she likes being shacked up with him or else she'd move out!

I would proceed ahead. Make sure plan B letter DOES HAVE WAY HOME written in it. But until this time, you gotta protect your daughter...and your assets...and your sanity. Unless she is 100 percent committed to marriage, recovery, and ending with OM...AND THIS WILL TAKE SOME TIME TO SHOW..

Again, DID I NOT WARN YOU ABOUT HER TRYING TO RECONCILE OR PRETEND TO DO THIS WAYY FAR TOO SOON?

Expect it to happen.

But it will not last.

Not until she's on bottom.

Until then, blinders on, head held high. Keep being there for your daughter. I am quite fearful what this woman emotionally has done to your daughter. Yes, she is destroying her family! And it will not be same again. It will take years of building from this point to get back..but it could be done...if she (WW) is strong enough. Now she's a simpering, crying, cake eating fool.

Now I would suspect she's gone to OM house! If she truly wanted to change...despite your not allowing her home, she'd go to her relatives...or friends...and move in with them and show you publicly how she's ending it with OM.

But she is not gonna do that.

She is playing both ends (you and OM) against the middle.

Again, her dreams are this:
apartment
boyfriend
living like a teenager without responsibilities
new car
having responsibilities of being a mother only when she feels like it
and above all:
PERSUADING YOU, HER FAMILY, AND FRIENDS THAT WE CAN ALL GET THRU THIS TOGETHER AND THAT THIS AFFAIR IS OK!

That's the deep desire of all affairees! To make the world OK with their stupidity and immorality!

To legitimize it!

Now..

DO NOT GIVE HER WHAT SHE WANTS!

I'd call this Dobson's Tough Love at it's finest!

Again, blinders on! Head held high! Focus on daughter for now...get her into good Faith based IC for healing! And you and daughter find TEN FUN THINGS to do together this week! Take daughters' focus off her crazy mom!

Let WW implode on herself! Let OM HANDLE HER NOW!

I hope you are doing ok. You are in my prayers.

UVA-JP-JL-MM-bigger-Mr.&Mrs.W-everyone else that has helped and prayed for me. THANK YOU!

I'm doing pretty well actually.

I do have a question.
1) Should I give WW's OM a copy of my plan B. I know the Harley sample does this. Does everyone and what is the point?

Yes, you do. The point is that both the OP and WS know where you stand. That you havent given up. They cant spin it that way. Thus they have a problem. They get to be with each other constantly...but they cant move forward because you are holding onto the marriage. The OP will be POed because he wont be able to fully rely on her and that she is coming. He will continue to wonder if she might go back.

As with everything involved in Plan A and B...the affair gets to be a very hard place to be in.

In His arms.

M-man
Thank you for helping me understand. I will deliver his copy this after noon.
Dazed

Mortarman-
One more question-
How much of my plan B do I share with my daughter12?
She will need to know the rules and what's going on.
Obviously she knows about mom being with a loser, but do let her in on most of my plan B?

Just let her know the basics. That you have decided to have NC with your wife until she stops doing what she is doing. That you love her mother very much and have not given up on her, but until she can do the right thing, you will have to maintain NC with her. I think your DD12 will understand. As you have posted, I think your DD12 wanted to Plan B her mom! Dont allow that, though.

In His arms.

Another thought to through out:
OM's divorce court date is set for 11-7-05. Does having my WW shacking up with him hurt his divorce case? He has no kids to fight over but he is trying to take a large sum of his wife's money and her truck. Should i expose OM's secret shack up honey to OM's future EXW?
The last I spoke with OM's wife she was just ready to move on and give him what he wants so he will leave her alone. She is really scared of him.
dazed

HI Dazed,



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I don't understand why everyone here is so bent on YOU going into Plan "B" when I doubt they really understand how hard it will be on YOU. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> AND... they seem to think it will "make her hit bottom" "wake her up" and the one I HATE stop her "cake eating" Plan "B" is for YOU to save YOUR love... not a tool to use to wake someone up...clearly that's what Harley says. And Plan "A" is for SIX MONTHS (and if you LB start the ticker again.)
I mean she's HOME!!! That... is half the battle...look at most here are dealing with a WS that is REALLY a WS GONE... hard to plan A without the person seeing you!!

And as for filing D... well I told you before only do that when you are SURE you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER want your wife back again.

God brought you here for a reason... he could have led you to a site where EVERYONE (even the Harley figure") told you to "Kick the Bi**ch to the curb..." "go Dark" etc...
But he didn't... he led you here... the principals are very sound here.... these people don't really understand them... or are too angry to carry them out... it really is hard and takes a LOT of strength and self control...
I WISH you would talk to Steve Harley again before you do a "B" or a D and BTW forget all the letters.... you need to do what YOUR HEART tells you to do (with good sound knowledge behind it) YOU KNOW HER BETTER THAN US!!

You should read the posts by LOSTVA do a search about 5 years ago (when this board had LOVING advice on it) and read her great success story.. NOW THAT.... WAS A PLAN "A"!! (known here as feeding cake or being a doormat) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> LOL

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS... FRANK

I FOUND THIS ONE.... BUT GO BACK AND READ HER STORY AS IT UNFOLDED... IT IS AMAZING.... FRANK






LOSTVA
Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!

Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.

OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.

Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of ******". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.

THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.

So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.

When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.

PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.

The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.

I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.

So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.

You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.

And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!! ) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....

Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two LB letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a LB!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.

First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.

So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.

Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.

At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.

Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.

In January, I got that letter. And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.

The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.

Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. [color:"red"] [/color] And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as ****** be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.

Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones! )

OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.

Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.

Good luck to you.

Love and prayers,

Lori

Frank:

Interesting post to say the least. Why don't you define for us "success" so that we are all on the same page here. I think Justpeachy is a roaring success story. She is well grounded, professionally successful, she has self love and self integrity, she is a single mom who does the best for her son...why don't you tell me WHAT IS IT ABOUT JUST PEACHY THAT IS NoT SUCCESSFUL...? If you are gonna say that the reason that she is not "successful" is because she didn't "stay married" to a chronically cheating, physically and verbally abusing man....well, I want you to explain yourself further. If you make the statements you do above, you better come back and back them up.

You see, what you define "success" and what someone else defines "success" can be two totally different things. You may see "success" as someone who was cheated on, and managed to stay married to their betrayer, and three years later is a shell of their former self living with a WS who just tells them to "get over it"...and although they may not be technically cheating, the patterns of abuse and dysfunction continue. I fear that many "recovered" Betrayed Spouses basically are in marriages that are like being with a "dry drunk" alcoholic...Yeah, the cheating may have stopped...but that is about all.

So, you make some pretty sweeping comments about Justpeachy here, so why don't YOU TELL US what Dazed should do, and please explain to me what being a "doormat" is...if such a terms exists. I perhaps have ot "wrong"...why don't you ****** me here, as obvious you know.

I am a simpleton and could greatly look forward to your opinion. You tell Dazed he should take Justpeachy's advuce with a grain of salt....shouldn't that be the case with EVERYONE here? None of us are experts....none of us KNOW the entire 100% stort of others here, as a Poster rarely if ever tells the whole complete story...that would not really be possible now.

Let me know your thoughts.

LEM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bump for Frank's thoughts

Lem

OK LEMON...CALM DOWN <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


[color:"red"] " If you make the statements you do above, you better come back and back them up." [/color]

I expected to have to defend that statement..... I just don't want this thread to become about my statement... this guy needs help here... but I'll defend...



[color:"red"] "I fear that many "recovered" Betrayed Spouses basically are in marriages that are like being with a "dry drunk" alcoholic...Yeah, the cheating may have stopped...but that is about all." [/color]

That is because you don't seem to understand the concepts here.... it isn't a TYPE of person that cheats ANY ONE of us is capable under certain circumstances... Understanding that the BS had something to do with the WS having the affair is what separates the "men from the boys" on this site.... if they don't "get it" then the anger is too great and they can never forgive enough to do a good "Plan "A"

[color:"red"] YOU CAN'T RESTORE LOVE WITHOUT UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.... [/color]

Most people here are into "Well... if she PROVES herself or gives you this or acts this way THEN love her and treat her with respect.... LOVE IS SUPPOSED TO BE UNCONDITIONAL..... ANGER, JEALOUSY, HATE and STUBBORN PRIDE aren't parts of unconditional love...
If you get caught up in what the WS does or says YOU ARE DOOMED!!!
WS are SUPPOSED to act nuts NOT US!!!!!!! They are SUPPOSED to waffle back and forth between the OP and the BS
THAT IS WHAT THEY DO!!!! Don't you think that Harley KNOWS THIS??
So people that give advice based on what the WS does aren't helping the BS they are helping the WS continue to CONTROL the issue with a brain that is, SELFISH, CONNIVING, HATEFUL ETC.... FOGGED OUT!!

This is hard enough without falling for all the usual WS fog stuff without someone SCREAMING stuff like this at you

"so why don't YOU TELL US what Dazed should do, "
PLEASE GO BACK A COUPLE OF PAGES AND SEE WHAT I TOLD HIM. JUST BASIC MB PRINCIPALS....NOT MINE.....MB's MOSTLY.

I just think it's crazy to be telling dazed a couple of months into this that he needs to do a Plan "B" or to file for D...

[color:"red"] THE IDEA HERE IS TO RE-BUILD LOVE IN HIS WS's HEART FOR HIM... NOT TO SHOCK HER INTO LOVING HIM.... [/color]
SHE DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF LOVE FOR HIM RIGHT NOW (on the surface it's been buried under what he did to HER first) SO.... HARLEY SAYS DO A PLAN "A" FOR 6 MONTHS (his D day was 9-20!!!!!) AND TRY AND GET THE LOVE BANK IN THE POSITIVE FIRST.... THEN.....WORK ON YOUR MARRIAGE.....

and please explain to me what being a "doormat" is...if such a terms exists. I perhaps have ot "wrong"...why don't you ****** me here, as obvious you know."

WELL.... I WOULD SAY WITH RESERVATIONS THAT IF YOU TRIED A PLAN "A" FOR 2 YEARS AND THERE WAS NO CHANGE THEN YOU MAY BE A DOORMAT... ALTHOUGH A GOOD FRIEND JUST GOT BACK WITH HIS WIFE AFTER 5 YEARS (although no MB principals were used in that case) SO I DON'T KNOW....

BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS IN A CASE LIKE THIS YOU REALLY NEED TO LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.,.... FOR BETTER AND FOR WORSE.... TILL DEATH.........THIS IS THE WORST OF THE WORST IMHO.....
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS.... FRANK

I don't think you can shock anyone into loving you or rebuilding the M.....

It seems to me that the spouses that leaves/ or continue the A while at home don't always know what they are doing....some here say they are in the fog... to me a lot are probably confused and feel justified to do what they are doing and it will take time to come around...and it is up to the BS to figure out how long they will "give" their spouse....most BS (or the left spouse) doesn't know how long they will wait...they figure it out as they go....

D-day was end of september, so it is just over a month...I know you are still in pain....but if you want to use the plan A and plan B (which are all about establishing NC) then please try try really hard to not LB...do not kick her out....(that is not what Harley says at all - I am sure there are circumstances where kicking the WS out are justified so you need to figure out if they are in your case)...I say do not kick her just cause you are hurt, of course you are hurt, but imagine if you do plan A, it is so much easier (NOT easy) to do WHILE your S is there at the house......it is difficult once they are GONE....mine is gone and calls me maybe once a week (not easy to meet many needs!)...

These are just my 2 cents...

Best,
Daisy

YES DAISY!! YES I'll let DAZED answer for himself later but I just had to jump in here and say YES!!
DAZED......Take the advice from someone that is living with a WS not at home... IS IT HARDER WHEN THEY ARE GONE!!
And kicking her out is not the right thing because you are hurt!! YES <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />... FINALLY SOMEONE WHO "GETS" it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Daisy... I will check out your posts tomorrow and will be praying for you and your Marriage...REALLY HARD!! I hope you are OK.....GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

to this person WHO IS JUDGING MY SUCCESS OR MY ADVICE...
Hint: EVERYTHING I HAVE WITNESSED with my xh has happened...and happened according to how things will go with MB.

My success is what it is.

For you to judge me as NOT a success is well...your problem.

Am I angry? No...I think much more than that.

what do I see? I see many bs here and they are missing serious areas...and some serious cake eating is going on.

do not judge me...

unless you can know who I am today, what I went thru, how I got through it, and made it to other side with my sanity, dignity, and child.

this man's wife is vascillating back and forth leaving t heir family home and placing so much stress on the children it is so sad...

so you jump onto a post and declare that I am not one to give advice? and what is YOUR success? Heck I don't care...as long as this man is doing what he can to get a very wayward wife back home...sleeping at om's...getting sympathyt from om and then coming home and playing same game at home and hurting their child so very much in process.

If you have good advice to give this man then do so.

LEAVE MY LIFE OUTTA IT.

I could personally care less what you think of me.

AND YOUR WORDS ABOUT ME NOT BEING A MB SUCCESS SHOWS something about YOU....

There are some marriages here which cannot be saved. No matter how smart, how much MB is applied...or how much tact is used. WS have something called free will...which is what we have.

what is interesting I think in my life is that even my xh, is living his life according to what mb says if they do leave their marriage...he is doing everything just as said would happen.

If I AM A FAILURE...THEN TELL THIS TO ALL THE OTHERS HERE WHO MADE IT OVER TO OTHER SIDE...didn't recover their marriage but recovered their lives because they realized their ws was NOT going to change soon, was too outta control or too toxic to continue forward with.

Tell them that they're failures too!

when people are here and wonder what a ws is doing...or what they're thinking...heck, I have 3 years experience here..when they ask why they're doing something..I get it. I have heard about every lie in the book and saw just about anything that could come their way.

and yes, I want people to stay together! my buddies here are always in my prayers.

but to say that some of my friends here who are divorced should not help others is well...I WILL LET YOU BE THE JUDGE OF YOUR OWN WORDS.

In the meantime, do not hijack a post to say negative things about somebody YOU DON'T KNOW.

this is my last and only response to you btw.

Dazed...

sorry for that...but I don't tolerate words like that from somebody I do not know...

anyway, she is getting close to being broken for sure. she has to want to come home.

what is her reasoning for that want? If we look at what happens now we see this...

we see a woman who is getting en's met by you and a bf. she refuses to give up one or the other. and we all know what enabling will do to her.

the reason I have suggested b as others here is because she is really not doing anything that would show the a is slowing down...she is in and out of the home...not being a participating parent...skipped out on the neice and dropped the ball hugely in that area...and is damaging her child by the words and actions.

I see much toxicity here.

I will ask you this...what would make this woman come home? If we use logic, we can say that "well we could keep doing same thing we're doing now (letting her come and go and spend a few hours here, not be kind to child, and then pout and then run off after telling lies to the om's house.) and see if this will work. Well it is not seeming to work. Or we could change the dynamics and see if that will have an effect.

seems however, that your actions were beginning to have an effect when you told her what you did the other day. I saw her moving a bit closer to moving home.

my favorite life quote is einstein's..."definition of insanity is to do same thing over and over and expecting an outcome to be different."

I apply it daily to my own life. everybody gets stuck in routines...and we hope we get stuck in routines that are WORKING for us instead of against us.

right now, you're in a fight to save your marriage...and preserve your love for her in process...your w is doing everything possible to make you lose that love. she is deliberately pushing you away...and you've done a huge plan a. been loving, kind, etc...and then...came the lecture part.

that was a tossback. we know that though. can only move forward from there.

she is making you inch ever closely to the point where you will and could be in danger of losing what love is left. I know it and understand.

that is why I am suggesting plan b right now.

You show her a good plan a for a while longer, and then do the plan b.

she has to rethink her options. she has to see her home as a safe place...a place of love and compassion where she could return. you place clear directions on how she can do it in the letter. it is the kindest love letter you can send.

Now we do not know what a ws will do. nobody can predict t heir actions. we have many here who can attest to what a ws will do...and we can average out the responses to get an overall view of how they act...and yea, it is pretty much the same. a good amount will come home when faced with the reality...and reality is in their face...and then a fair amount will not come home or change no matter what the bs does.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD IS THIS:

Nobody and I mean NOBODY CAN CONTROL A WS. It is impossible to control another person. but what you can control is your reaction to the situation.

There is a time according to Mb to do plan a. a s eason if you will. this time is to be worked well. read the thread about the carrot and the stick of plan A. and you did it pretty darn good btw.

there is a time according to mb to do plan b. and many ws have made decisions and positive choices to return to their families based on what they saw and chose because the bs did plan a and b.

but there are some that will not react according to mb. they just do not return. and it unfortunately happens here. You cannot force another person to do anything at all...but you can change circumstances.

Perception is key by the ws...if they see a loving home, a warm inviting place and a bs with an open heart....they will stand on the sidelines during plan a and take note...and probably eat some cake...if the ws does not change their minds, and time passes and the behaviors get more destructive by the ws...then something else...a different approach (a la einstein) must be used.

then it's time for b. and the ws has the road map the whole time on how to get home. the bs does not enable the affair at all. the ws gets to see what life is like when bs is gone..when their safety net, loving home, safe home, is not there anymore open to their destructive behaviors. and then free will comes into play. the ws decides if they continue down that destructive path or come home.

a human being can only do so much. we do more than superman does here btw. but you do the plans and you do them well.

I think that even if in the end, say a ws does NOT come home...the chance of that relationship with op succeeding is abysmally small. I think that the two year rule is right on the money ...or it could take a little longer...but that the affair relationship is dead in the water...only takes a matter of time.

My brother in law is perfect example of my sister doing plan a...when she suspected something happened a few years ago in her marriage (can we say I gave her my book on saa?)..it was never confirmed. He came home. affair discovered actually several years later. He saw why he needed to come home. No need for plan b there. sometimes it's not needed. so my very own sister is a Mb recovery champ ok? My neices and nephews have 2 loving parents and a stable and wonderful home. My bro in law is a devoted dad and husband...just bought my sis a gorgeous new wedding band btw...so yea, a family was recovered.

and then there is what happened to me....but in the end...I truly believe that my xh will leave and want to leave being the way he is. it is only a matter of time. I will forever love and miss the man I married. I know that this man never had chance because of circumstances to ever hit rock bottom...but I know that he will one day crash. I also know that he deeply probably regrets his choices. My heart broke 2 years ago...shortly before the birth of his child. When mere days after our D was final...that he stood in his own office at work...tears in his eyes and tears down my face as he confirmed he was going to be a dad again by ow. He said he could not change anything and that he'd always love me. at that point, I realized my heart could take no more. and that was after a long plan b.

time passed. the affair marriage trudged along. and life went according as predicted...sadly...for my xwh.

Recently my xh's present wife found his plan B letter along with my simple gold band. It was hidden away in a closet..well hidden I might add...the ow/w was LOOKING FOR AFFAIR EVIDENCE when she found this.. she read it...evidently got scared by what it said (was a path back home) and did not like fact my xh hid it from her for 3 years now...like he had been reading it...and thinking on it? even the most wayward will have an effect with plan b ok?

it hurt alot hearing that...why? because I know now that my xwh has been reading that letter on and off for 3 years...and even went so far as to place letter and ring in a plastic baggie so it would be safe...he hid it in a safe place. and yes, it meant something to him. was very sad for me that day. I did cry.

but the point is this...both my sister and I did well doing the MB approach. both ws in this case are/were successful men. one came home after a torrid two month affair...and another did not...and got much worse. but if anybody can learn anything from what I went thru...what my family went thru...both my sis and I...then it's worth it.

Yesterday at work...my last patient...she was a thyroid cancer patient. I was waiting for the doc to do the consult (I stay in during consult and help get H/P info)...I had about 15 minutes alone with her. She was scared. She was about 60. she broke down crying almost immediately in front of me. I swear, God puts me in places so that I can help them with this...she said "I can live through this..but I am not gonna be well enough for a while to HELP MY DAUGHTER...she tried to kill herself yesterday."

I then hear how this poor woman's daughter is now in an outpatient facility because her WS is driving her to the point of insanity and considered suicide her only way out. they incidentally have two children.

I asked if her daughter had a plan? the mom said "what can you do? if a man wants to leave, they leave." I said....NOOOOOOO> There can always be a plan. I told her my story, little of my sister's, told her it could go either way...but that her daughter needed hope and love...and I wrote down name of a few books and told her D to lurk here and wrote down site.

The mom said "wow I can give her all this when she gets out tomorrow..." Mom goes in hospital tuesday...and she feels better because she is going to empower her daughter...and is going to support her 100 percent and the kids. The mom said she can beat the CA...she just didn't want to lose her family in the process...she loved her sil and daughter and grandkids.

Nobody can predict the future. but we can try to show you what worked and what did not.

If you heal and she returns, then we win here. a family wins.

but if she chooses negatively, then you will find a way to heal...and still win. You will do all you can to keep your kids in a safe and happy home. again it is a win.

and take heart, if she chooses unwisely...you will most likely know what will be the result of her affair...it will proceed according to the good words of the people here...

Dazed,
I am not dealing with an A (at least I have no proof) so I do not know the pain that comes from a WS coming and going between you and OM. I am dealing with other issues, depression and other issues.... So, I don't know if I would be able to follow plan A. Ok, maybe I am not qualified to give you any advice....if so then you can ignore me....but nevertheless, I'll tell you that I had a opportunity to have my H at home...I could have discussed it with him the day he said "I want a seperation"...it was the 3rd time in 3 months...I was hurt, very hurt and I thought, well I cannot stop him, it will just keep coming up.....so, I left the house for a couple of hours and when I came back He was gone.....I tell you, I regret that! I cannot go back and change that but I really wish I could....with him here I would have been able to do some plan A(when something like that - basically show him that I can be a better partner - which I now know I can!)

...instead I pushed him away with the hurt I felt and I LBed and he just pushed me further and now he is saying lets be friends....Now, I try to do best for me that I can, and when we see each other, I don't pressure him and just have mututal respect....ok, so my situation no where in compares to yours...but it is very painful to me...and if I could go back I would not have let my H go out that door that easily....So, my advice to you not to kick her out was coming from that........in your case, you have a Plan A......I read here a lot......and from what I gother you plan A for at least 6 months......

But as I said in my other post, it is up to you to decide whether her living at your house is 'toxic'....only you can know that......

Best,
Daisy

Dazed,

Have you thought of calling S.Harley?
It could not hurt to do that....you know each situation is different and from what I gother they do 'mold' plan A and plan B around each individual....

I know it costs money, but really at the end it is just 200 (or so ) to save your M....is it not worth it?

Lastly, as you know MB principles do not work with mental issues and addictions.....so even though I am not dealing with an A, I have nowhere to look, nowhere to get any help in what to do.....I am lost.....there is no stategy for me....I wish I had some plan...I make it up as I go....you got the Harleys and MB principles....sure it may not work...and sure it is hard work....but it has a good chance of working....if you want it....

Best to you....
Daisy

I totally agree with harley...I spoke with them twice...and tried to get my then wh to speak to them...

He knew I was a harley convert...he refused to speak to him btw.

now daisy, I think your wH is suffering from possibly a mental illness...signs and symptoms are all there...he may be suffering from that and a bit of wanting to be wayward.

I don't know.

IT is vague what you've said...but I am listening also.

If somebody is unsure there is always a sure fire way to find out..spend a little on a PI and have surveillance on the person suspected. You usually find out by having them trailed or watched on a saturday night...that's what they told me...and found out all I needed to know in 5 hrs. flat.

I don't know what part was vague...I tend to ramble on...sorry.

I guess I was trying to say that dazed has a chance to save his M by trying to follow the MB principles....there is some plan he can follow....that is all I was getting at...

As far as my case, I did not mean to confuse the issue by talking about me....sorry....I am in another boat all together it seams..and I have some days when I strugle since I do not have some plan to follow.....just doing cirles sometimes ...

peach... it is funny sort of, I was thinking about a PI yesterday...... I have mixed feelings about it....what if he is not doing anything and here I am 'snooping' .....moreover, since he said that all he wants is friendship he probably feels he can do what he wants anyway...would not call it an A....who knows......I'll think about the PI some more....just not sure yet....BTW, how much does it cost (if you don't mind me asking)...

Ok, enough tread jacking by me....sorry dazeds..

Daisy

JP,
I went back and edited all references to you in my posts... I was out of line in that I shouldn't have mentioned whether or not your advice was valid based on whether or not your marriage was restored... I really didn't mean it that way...

I guess if you were here in the "old days" you'd understand more...the veterans never EVER told me to "kick my WS to the curb" that was the comment that got me upset...as a result I got angry... not really at you... but in the fact that this type of advice was NEVER used when I arrived here, hurt, already angry, confused, and desperate (hence, my handle name here PLEASE HELP)

Things were a little more loving and positive and more accurate in the MB principals... 6 month Plan "A".....Plan "B" when you were at the VERY end of your rope to preserve love...... and last and ONLY when you really did not want your WS in your life and BOTH plans had no positive effect... Divorce.


I'M SURE it's to soon for DAZED to do a Plan "B" NOT because of my great MB success (I'm probably the biggest loser that ever came to MB based on what you THOUGHT I was implying about you....... more on that later....) or that I have superior knowledge on this terrible trial.....but simply I BELIEVE in MB principals and know they work (97% success rate I think) if done "by the book" and THAT is the only advice I've given to DAZED.... no opinion... just MB principals...I really have less credibility than anyone here so I keep MY thoughts out of my advice.



NOW.... if you had written a post like you did on.....#2849106 - 10/29/05 08:35 AM

I would have never responded like I did.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You have to admit that this post was a little more "MB" than "kick her to the curb".... show her the BLACK whatever... etc,... that I responded to.... in this post you tell him to do a good Plan "A" FIRST.... then.... etc....


WE KNOW... about cake-eating (sorry I still don't like that one for some reason....) and all that..... WE KNOW the pain that this can cause... and of course the anger....

I believe DAZED needs us to keep him positive and detached enough to filter out all the "NOISE" his heart is sending to his brain and calm him down...not "pump these feelings up"


Yes... there is a point that he MAY need to do a Plan "B" but according to Harley..NOT ME.... he hasn't done enough of a Plan "A" to be effective yet....

If he was here saying....."I can't go on" I don't want to live"....." OR... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />I HATE THE BI**CH and want to run her and OM over with my truck....
Then JP.... I'm right there with you telling him to go to "Plan "B".... or Divorce.... really.... THEN I'm with you....


BUT... his WS is HOME... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />yes... vacillating between him and OM BUT REALLY... Isn't that what they ALL do?? Harley knows this is what they do... DAZED has a better shot than most...and seems to have the stamina at this point.


When I went through this.... I would have taken them BOTH in (WS and OM) at one point just to be able Plan "A" my WS... not really..... but I would have taken the chance under most every other circumstance...


For me... (here's a SAD SAD thing I'll admit) After my W left, I found a flannel nightshirt she would wear that she left behind... it still smelled like her. When things got sooo bad for me.... I would put it on my pillow at night.... and I SWEAR... that when I would breath in...... and smelled her perfume....the pain would go away.... ONLY on the intake...when I exhaled... that awful awful pain returned...
Pretty sad huh? (Go easy on me on that one...) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


So... I think he should keep her home and do the best "A" he can.... WHILE he can.... she's there for a reason maybe SHE doesn't even know....
You and I JP have the same goal here... TO HELP DAZED SAVE HIS MARRIAGE FROM THIS DEMON.... maybe a little of you and a little of me and a LOT from the others will do it!!


OK.... sorry this was so long...I promised I'd tell you why I am probably the most UNSUCCESSFUL MB'er of all time.... I'll do it this way.... I added my story at the end..... GOD BLESS... FRANK

Dazed,

Gonna jump in here and throw in those 2 pennies I have set aside for tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

1. A WS in the home isn't always a good thing.
2. If plan A is done correctly and there still is a WS, then going to plan B with exit papers being given to the Ws is a good plan. (check this one out with Jennifer C @ MB).

If you check out Lor's story, you will find that her WS lived with PT. False recoveries happened several times. Her H came back but only after she did what she needed t/d for herself.

In my case, after the WS moved out.... I hurt and wanted him back. He came back as a WS and that was worse..... I sent him back out, several times. More than anyone should have to endure.

My point is that it w/b better for the BS to take the higher road ASAP. The criteria s/b a good plan A s/b done. Once that is out of the way, then plan B (which recommends separation) is a viable option. Pushing the WS out there to the real world c/b more beneficial than allowing her to enable her to use the BS, family and friends to enable the A.

Many of us Bs' take too long before executing a good plan B. The time lost makes us tired and weak. It makes us lose our love as well. As a result, more of us push for going to plan B sooner than later. Of course, a good plan A is a prerequisite.

As for a WS who claims suicide..... or anylike threats..... all would do well t/d as your MIL did. The police are fully aware of WS types. All threats are t/b taken as genuine. The more they do this, the longer their record gets. You know what? That's the WS doing it to themselves. Your MIL should feel no regret from her call. She did the right thing. I know, I had to do that also.

BTW, JP is giving you an example of what tough love really means. She has lived through a lot and survived. Her M failed not because of her actions but because her XH still has his head up his [censored]. Not good t/b married to somone who can't see his own feet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Where are you Dazed? U alright?

I had been wanting to get on here and write to you Peachy and PH. I wish I had more time to write to you both. For now I will have to keep it short.
I want to say that there is one common thread we all share. We have all experienced the horrible experience of having our hearts ripped out by the one we love and trusted. Our lives changed forever because of it. Please Help: Your words of inspiration and taking a loving approach does make sense to me. I agree with the importance of a good plan A. In my sitch, my marriage has been full of problems and major love busters. Reading the basic concepts made me cry. You see I allowed my marriage to drift for 3 years. My wife slowly gave up on me. She has been in love with this other man for nearly 8 months now. Keep in mind this was 6 months I had no idea what was going on. For the last 6 months I have screwed up really really bad. The entire time she kept testing me, and I failed almost all of them not knowing it was really a trap. Every time i would fail her love for him would strenghten. It was so unfair of her to do this to us. I feel so stupid that i did not see all the signs of her affair. I had so many chances to stop it. She even left me clues so I would stop her. I don't have all day to go over all the tragic history of how I ended up here.
One poster said that every WS acts the same displays all the same characteristic of addiction and fog. However, only the BS really knows all the details and there WS. This makes it difficult to know exactly how and when to impliment the MB tools. I agree the MB tools are the best weapons we BS's have to fight for out marriages.
The plan A deal is so tough to take. Especially for a man to impliment when my first thought is to be protective of my wife and fight for her. She has always know how to push my buttons, and become angry. I have tried so very hard not to commit love busters but it's so hard. The loving her part is easy. It's the time when I know she is with him doing god only knows that I just can't take. My emotions just run wild. This is when I have been at my worst. How do I just set at home and do nothing? When I know where there at. That is so hard for me.
Here is my update:
I have stood down with my Plan B letter. It's signed and sealed and ready to rock. I think it is written very very well. Please Help you have really made me think with your post. Especially the one about filing for a divorce.
Here it is. My wife is in love with another man. I know on here you all call it addiction and fog. She thinks she is in love, okay. Because of her love for him she is doing all the stuff that a WW does. I mean text book.
The question is how do I win her back. My wife does not, and has never responded positively to pressure. She runs from it. Every time I have pressured her she had ran to him. Every time I show her love she stops and thinks. Usually breaks down and cries. Telling me she is trash and not worthy of my love and to stop.
The night I caught the two of them in the parking lot after she lied to me saying she promised to not see other man. Well things have gotten a lot worse since then. That was a major love buster. I guess i was suppose to set at home knowing she was with him. So hard to do. I know; If I don't do this right she will be with him and not be coming home.
Okay, she has progressed to the stage of with draw from me. She is avoiding any contact or conversation with me. Saturday morning she approached me and asked if I would agree to a divorce. I told her I would not support any idea that would not make all three of us happy, and tearing our family in two pieces was not an option. I told her I would not discuss divorce or talk of other man. I did very good until the part where she told me our marriage was nothing more than a mistake. She only wanted to marry me to make up for having aborted our first child three years earlier when we were 16. got to run be back later.

HI Dazed.,,,
Good to here that you are, for the most part.. OK...


You sound really down.... DON'T GIVE UP!!
[color:"red"]"The plan A deal is so tough to take. Especially for a man to implement when my first thought is to be protective of my wife and fight for her. She has always know how to push my buttons, and become angry. I have tried so very hard not to commit love busters but it's so hard." [/color]

YOU'RE DARN RIGHT IT'S HARD... D*M NEAR IMPOSSIBLE!!
BUT YOU CAN DO THIS!!

When it gets hard... COME HERE.... YELL HERE.... VENT HERE.... PUNCH THE WALL HERE.... CRY HERE...

We are here for you... we'll calm you down and keep you focused...we've done this....so can you.

[color:"red"]"How do I just set at home and do nothing? When I know where there at. That is so hard for me.
" [/color]
These are the hard times.... that's when you take your daughter somewhere special or just watch TV with her and draw strength from "YOU doing the RIGHT thing"
Take this time to work on yourself... just forget about what they are doing... because... as hard as this is to believe... OM IS NOT THE PROBLEM AND IS REALLY NOTHING.... NOTHING......he is an ILLUSION.....
Why do you think your WS is a wreck right now? It's because she sees you changing and she LIKES the changes... if you were like this before there would be no OM....(not trying to beat you up here brother <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) And if she DIDN'T love you.... she wouldn't be a wreck and would have filed... HATE ISN'T THE OPPOSITE OF LOVE.... INDIFFERENCE IS.....


[color:"red"]"I have stood down with my Plan B letter. It's signed and sealed and ready to rock. I think it is written very very well. " [/color]

Good... have it ready but hold it until you are at the END... until you have VERY little left in your love bank.... just like Harley says... (can you call him BTW?) why don't you post it and we can all look at it and make sure there are no LB's or begging (no offence)


[color:"red"] "Please Help you have really made me think with your post. Especially the one about filing for a divorce.
Here it is. My wife is in love with another man. I know on here you all call it addiction and fog. She thinks she is in love, okay. Because of her love for him she is doing all the stuff that a WW does. I mean text book.
" [/color]

Good... I'm glad I made you think...(got to have one of you two thinking LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I PROMISE... you are right she only "thinks" she's in love..she isn't and being "textbook" is a GOOD sign... that means MB principals have a better chance of working...



[color:"red"]"The question is how do I win her back. My wife does not, and has never responded positively to pressure. She runs from it. Every time I have pressured her she had ran to him. " [/color]

Right.,... that's why you don't PUSH you PULL in this situation. If you pressure...she WILL run....
Think of this... if you had a Dog... that you rarely hugged and kind of ignored...as long as the dog was fed and watered and not hit...the dog would trust and love you right?
Now...no matter how much the dog loved and trusted you if you RAN up to it suddenly and grabbed it and loudly proclaimed your love to it.. what would it most likely do? Probably.. struggle away at least.. and maybe even bite you at worst...or run a few feet away with it's tail between it's legs and watch you and sniff the air to see what the heck was going on...
Now this dog would under normal circumstances trust you with it's LIFE... but because you're acting DIFFERENTLY than you normally do... the trust is not there.

That's what happens with a GOOD Plan "A".... Your WS has (by your account) been ignored...now.... you are acting differently...she NATURALLY doesn't trust it.. and with OM telling her it's an act.... she REALLY doesn't...
That's why Plan "A" takes a while... you WILL NOT SEE THE RESULTS ON THE SURFACE... she will continue to HIDE it's affects from you.... but... it's slowly chipping away at her hurt.. just like you ignoring her slowly chipped away at her love and trust...

[color:"red"] "Every time I show her love she stops and thinks. Usually breaks down and cries. Telling me she is trash and not worthy of my love and to stop.
" [/color]

NOW... THIS IS IMPORTANT....I've seen this be very healthy not only for the WS but for the BS...
When you DO talk about your marriage... TELL HER THE THINGS YOU'RE LEARNING ABOUT WHAT YOU DID WRONG IN YOUR MARRIAGE.... I KNOW this is hard.. since there is NOTHING you did that deserved this or compares with what SHE is now doing...it's unfair... but remember.... she was hurting for a LONG time...


Why? Well here's what I think.... if someone had wronged me.. and I told them what they did and they agreed... what did I gain?... it just may be an act to get me back... BUT... if the person figured it out all by themselves and apologized to me BEFORE I brought it up.... I would believe that person really did..."get it" and believe they really had changed and it wouldn't EVER happen again/...
This will help your WS because she won't feel like a bad person for what she's doing now (Believe it or not you don't want that... that kills self esteem and will keep her away...) She will understand the difference between being a "bad person" and making "bad choices"


And as much as it's hard for you to see right now... it will help YOU because fast forward a year or so after you and your Wife start to rebuild your love YOUR anger may surface and if you have this understanding (I know you do know some things but keep digging... this is part of YOUR growth) your anger will subside... and you never know...


Like in my case... I DUG and DUG and like you,.. I cried when I realized how I hurt her... but there was one thing that really got to her... she had made a Glamour photo for me... I hated it.. and I told her that... I didn't like all the make-up it just wasn't HER....I used to put it face down and stick it in the draw etc.....
Then I realized the she went to a LOT of trouble to make that for me,....JUST for me... but what did I do... I told her I hated it...

Well.... she was gone and I started to look for it... I couldn't find it...so I called her and asked her where it was... she said WHY... YOU HATE IT REMEMBER... I told her what I had learned.... she cried....and said I couldn't have it back... I offered her ANYTHING I owned for it... ANYTHING... she said it was too late...
I found out later.... IT WAS ON OM'S DESK!!! SHE GAVE IT TO HIM!!!
BUT/..... she told me later that, THAT single bit of growth convinced her to come home because she was sure that I "got it" and she trusted that I had changed....I GOT THE PHOTO BACK....and still have it as a reminder...

[color:"red"]"I did very good until the part where she told me our marriage was nothing more than a mistake. She only wanted to marry me to make up for having aborted our first child three years earlier when we were 16. got to run be back later.
" [/color]

OK... this is the single hardest thing to do..
DO NOT REACT.... DO NOT REACT.... DO NOT REACT.....
This is all WS fog... I PROMISE...
One of the things that helped me when I first got here was a thread that listed all the terrible things the WS say...
Like "I love you but I'm not IN love with you... THAT is the one that hurt me the most....
THEN... I read that almost EVERY WS had said that and that it was WS fog-babble
My WS went from "I have been unhappy for 2 years" to..... I haven't felt loved for MOST of our Marriage... to......
I knew it was over when we moved to RI...
WE HAD MOVED TO RI 14 YEARS BEFORE HER AFFAIR... and I remembered SOOOOO MANY REALLY GREAT GREAT GREAT TIMES FOR MANY YEARS AFTER RI!!

So see....they are justifying... fogging... and lying to themselves....so DO NOT REACT... COME HERE... HURT HERE.... YELL HERE.....don't fall for it... it's NOT TRUE!!!

GOTTA GO... sorry for getting long winded... GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS... FRANK

Frank,

I just had to post a reply...
...good to see you still posting.

I just got back to the forums a few days ago.

Good Luck with all you do!

You can see my update at mypost.

Jim/NSR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Come-on Dazed.... Stay with us... what's happening?? U OK?

Frank,
Your words are so very inspirational. I totally agree with you. I decided Sunday that I would go 100% at finishing my Plan A. With no angry outburst, demands, basically all the love busters. The word ironic continually keeps coming to mind. There are things happening to me at just the most weird times. I pray every day for my wife and daughter, some times several times a day. Maybe Some of the things happening are related.
I will kind of recap the last couple of days. Saturday she asked me to agree to a divorce. When I told her I would not speak of it and told her I loved her she became angry. She said a lot of hurtful things to me and daughter again heard her and asked her to please stop. WW appologized to daughter and promply left. Actually just walked off. Did not take her car or nothing. I figure she walked to the store located a few blocks away and had OM pick her up.
Saturday night while daughter was at a friends I had some time to think. Going over our entire relationship and all the things I have done wrong. Understanding how I failed my wife I think is important to do an affective and sincere Plan A. I also spent time reviewing MB principles, like the basic concepts and the three states of mind of a relationship. The story of how many men create rooms of there life and only let there wife into a couple of them fits me exactly. That is the single largest mistake I made in our marriage. I did not make me wife a part of everything I was doing. This caused all the disconnection of our friendship and finally lead to neglect that broker her heart. I thinkg this is the most important part of a marriage. Living life together side by side as equalls, friends, best friends. That is what creates love and a bond between two people. We had this when we first started out. We were inseprable. We lived as extentions of each other. I prayed many times that night for help. One thing that came to me was I needed to give my wife her rings back. When she stopped wearing them I became angry and when I found them I took them. I placed them in an envolope and put them away in our storage box of pictures and keep sakes we have collected through out our marriage. I decided to offer just to give them to her to keep. Not ask her to wear them, just to have. Later that night when WW came home I could see she was hurting and when I looked at her I could see tears in her eyes. She came up stairs and stood in the hall way for a few minutes. I came out of my room to see what she was doing. She paused and went on to the guest room and laid down to go to bed. I went in and ran my fingers through her hair. With tears in her eyes she starting appologizing for all the hurtful things she said and that she did not mean them. She said she was so sorry for hurting me and that i was right about everything. She can not look in the mirror at herself. She feels like trash and is now a horrible person that I don't deserve and I should punish her. I told her I loved her. I then placed the rings in her hand and told her I had unfairly be holding these with out her knowing where. They are yours and you should have them. She thanked me and said she had been missing them so much. She grabbed me and held me tight. She cried and cried as she repeated her self over and over of how sorry she is. I comforted her for awhile and went off to my own room. After laying there for a few minutes I realized that I should go to her. When i went back in the room she was crying again. Again I comforted her by running my fingers through her hair and rubbing her neck. When my arm became tired she grabbed my hand and pulled my arn around her. For the first time in many months I held her all night and she held on to me. Don't worry. Absolutely no sex.
Sunday she left again for most of the day. When she returned she was again with drawn from me. Avoiding conversation and would not allow me to do anything kind for her. Monday morning she emailed me a mean message saying the OM called her first thing telling her that I was stalking him and she wanted me to leave him alone. The deal is he seen my truck parked two blocks from his apartment at the re-hab center where my pastor works as a counselor. Loser OM thought i was looking for him. I wrote WW back telling her why I was where I was and nicely asked her to please defend the man that loves her, me. Maybe LB or not, but I took the opp. to tell her that I thought OM was again out to make me the bad guy in an attempt to win her like a toy. Told her he was the one out to get me and take you away just like he has been for months. Just like him calling her a couple dozen times on our 13th anniversary way back in April. Also the false police report about me vandelizing his truck and making her think I did it. She replied with I'm so sorry! Your are right and I feel so horrible. I'm so sorry for ruining your life.
I replied back. Read what I wrote earlier again. Just think about it.
I have a request: Can you tell me if you were to write a perfect story of how the rest of our lives would be like how would it go? Please think about this and write back.
NO REPLY.
Monday night:
After handing out candy which the WW was uncomfortable about doing. She did not want to greet people to badly as they came to the porch with there kids. In years past she really looked forward to holloween and seeing all the kids.
I guess she felt bad about seeing kids with there parents having fun and being together.
She retired early to take a bath and go to bed. After sending daughter to bed for the night, I went in to check on her. She was cold and only covered in a sheet on top of bedding. I went and got her a blanket and as I covered her she began to cry again. She told me she was sorry for everything. At this time I asked her to just listen to me. I told her about how I "get it" and understand what I did wrong. I just laid it all out. I went on about everthing I did wrong in our marriage. It was me that did not include her into all of my life. I'm running short on time again so I will have to stop the detailed report. However, I hit the nail right on the head. She was very touched by my confession of understanding. I was right on target, with everything I said. She felt i understand her pain of what happened and how I made her hurt. This was very hard on me as well. I was choked up many times, just thinking about how I hurt her as I spoke. After wards she told me she loved me and we held each other. I comforted her as see went off to sleep. I did not stay with her. Got to go. Be back soon.
dazed

Hey guys sorry about the long post of details.
Okay, Monday night. Yes, with out her telling me what i did wrong, I professed to knowing how we went wrong and that almost all our problems was all tied to us not sharing our lives and living as partners. She totally agreed and by her reactions she new I got it. I gave her many compliments about various things. Everything I admired about her. Everything I was proud of her for. Her talents and abilities that make her special. Also, talked about our future but I did not want to focus on it. I wanted her to know that there is still a way for us to be happy and demostrate I knew the way and was already working on it. Dwelling on talk that makes her choose now seems to not get me anywhere good with her. So, I told her that I was not going to just up on us, and hand her over to another. I hope and dream for the day when we are holding each other and enjoying life and today is just a memory of when we re-discovered our love for each other. I told her that no matter what other people think, it's only us that matters. (She is embarrased about the exposure to our families). She thinks they will forever she her as a ******. This really, really bothers her. Okay, I told her I could not make her love me or make her stay. That was something she has to want on her own. I believe in forgiveness and redemption. I said several other things to show her a way back if she so chooses.
This morning went in woke her up for the day. I decided to just ly down and hold her. To my surprise she reached for my hand and pulled my arm around her. We snuggled for 15 to 20 minutes before I had to get into the shower. There was tears in her eyes as i had to get up and get ready for work. Once out of the shower she approached me again crying and said it was all her fault and that I was making this really really hard for her. She cried the entire time she was in the shower. I gave her a kiss good bye when I left for work and told her I had checked her car over and had already put my cell in the front seat so she could call if it broke down on her way out of town today. She had to go 30 minutes to the next city and attend the custody hearing for my sister to obtain custody of niece12 back. WW told me near tears, thank you and I feel so guilty.
She has emailed me and called me to tell me about the hearing and some small talk.
So that's wear I stand. Still in limbo but really trying to finish up strong with my Plan A. I have to remind myself constantly what my goal is and to not get caught up in another love buster. Lord knows I'm good at that part. I really believe I have to establish some consistancey with my Plan A before going to B. I think I have done some good things but some LB's too. The other morning when she got me up set and I started in on how great other man is may have scored a little bit as well. Do you remember the notes I took from OM's soon to be EXW that WW found. They covered everything, from his sexual pref's to out look on kids, job history, character flaws, personality, social habits, interest, family, etc.
Well OM quit his job at WW's work place. Not sure if I had mention this nugget of info. It has had some impact on WW. Boy toy is no longer at arms reach. The weasle has some how got his lunch break already moved to 1PM so he can see her, but at least he in not in front of her all day. Back to my point. OM's EXW said he can't hold down a job and is financially unstable. Including bad credit. I reminded WW that OM has just made his wife right on the money with that one. Scratch that off the list. WW did not reply to that one. Not knowing when to stop, I asked what else on the list can we check off at this point? We know the kids things is also on the money, don't we. No reply. Going a step further, I asked well I bet he is probably now pressuring you for physical stuff by now too. She paused and said do you know who you are talking to? I have made it clear to him that I'm not going ready to have sex with him. I paused, and said so you had to make it clear to him huh. Scratch that one off the list as well. he he For what's it worth, I'm hoping that OM's efforts start working in my favor.

Frank, thanks for your apology...I do appreciate it.

I am a champ. and my xwh will always regret his decisions.

why do i believe so much in plan B? because my xh only came (and briefly to senses) because of a harsh b.

in years past, I think we did a for too long. far too long. I did the long plan a and it almost took me to my knees. far too long. I should have gone dark much earlier. but then again, I have one of the worst mb spouses of all time.

BASICALLY...IT'S THIS...like going to your doc...what medication she/he prescribed for your four or three years ago might not be best for you today...if a newer and better drug is now on the market which can heal you faster and with less pain.

DAZED:

I am sorry. I keep reading more of the same stuff she is doing.

again, here is einstein: definition of insanity is doing same thing over and over and expecting outcome to be different.

she is playing both you and om.

she is coming and going as she pleases.

she cries, wants to be held, is sorry, loves you both, and yet is saying NOW she wants a DIVORCE.

If you want your w back, you need to rethink your options I think.

Many of us suggested plan B to you...to force the ww to see what life is without you for love, support, and en's. plus she will upon leaving have to leave behind her child too. that way she gets to "play house" and "play divorce".

and with an unstable om and that sitch, it is destined for failure.

I am just seeing more of the same...and a cycle of abuse from the ww that is horrid for your kids and you...yes now you to keep on enduring.

this is getting hard for me. hard to read. I hurt for you and your family...but you're not doing anything that will make ww want to change her ways.

she has to have the motivation.

what motivation is there when you keep giving her a slice of cake with a cherry on top? I mean, she's sleeping here...there with om...and then back home with you...what gives?

Dazed, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />!!!

YOU ARE GETTING REALLY GOOD AT THIS!! I AM VERY VERY PROUD OF YOU MY FRIEND!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Your posts were long but very good to read all the info... it helps us see the whole picture better THE WALLS ARE STARTING TO CRUMBLE.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's funny... as I was writing to you to tell her what you did wrong you were DOING IT!! Weird huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

See.... how she has hope in her eyes for you guys as she starting to see that "you get it"?

I am VERY hopeful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />for you guys at this point... the wanting you to hold her is VERY VERY strong in my eyes....

You really are "Rookie of the Year" in my eyes!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SOOOO many really good things in your post I can't even reply to them all.... here are the highlights....

GREAT PLAN "A" stuff:

Telling her YOUR part in this (therefore relieving her of some of the DESTRUCTIVE guilt feelings that may make her "just go for it" with OM to "justify") That was great.....good job!!

Holding her and not trying to lead to sex.... TOUGH....I know... but the right move right now... of course if SHE starts it... GO FOR IT... IMHO.. she IS your Wife!!

Leaving her the cell phone and checking her car.... AWESOME..!!

Doing the Halloween thing with her.... GREAT.... whether she shows it or not.... that will be a good memory for you guys someday...

OK.,.,.. really.... you are doing sooooo good.... just a little tweaking.....

It's OK to tell her what you're learning... but try and stay away from "Preaching" and "Selling" You have a good product.... YOUR FUTURE MARRIAGE.... But it's not the time to start "Overloading" her with how it "could or will be" Poor baby is confused enough at the moment... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Let's not explode her brain....
Remember... it's about FEEEEEELINGS.... not words.... Let her start FEELING comfortable and safe with you... Let her start FEELING things will be better....

Oh.. before I forget... a BIG BRICK WALL for recovery is the family knowing "what happened" Like my Brother hates my W now... he told me before if I ever took her back he would NEVER SPEAK TO ME AGAIN.... to protect me.... You'll have to do what I had to do.... go back and put out the fire.... tell your/her family what you are leaning about your part in this... you don't have to do it now... (You have enough work ahead) but if it gets ugly... you have to take some of the blame off of WS.... I would (at the right moment) tell WS you plan to do this....(BTW it was great that you told WS that YOU AND HER AND DD were the MOST IMPORTANT things...)

DO NOT COMPARE YOURSELF WITH OM....(He is NOTHING compared to you... NOTHING... SMOKE.... AN ILLUSION....NOT REAL you are real....her HUSBAND... FOR A LONG LONG TIME!!) DO NOT PUT HIM DOWN or POINT OUT HIS FAULTS ( He is her friend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> she WILL defend her "friend" and...it makes her feel stupid and you want her to feel good remember?) Believe me.... it's really not about him...


THIS IS IMPORTANT... this is NOT OVER... by a LONG SHOT.. (sorry...) She will vacillate back and forth.... BUT.... think of it this way,...

She's lost at sea in a storm trying to find her way home... she has no map.....she has no instruments
On one side she has you (her Lighthouse beacon) shining a light towards home.... BUT.. she has OM yelling in the darkness "Don't follow the lighthouse!!!" "Remember, you crashed the last time you went that way?!!!" "Go this way!!!"

If you start "teaching...and preaching" (yelling in the darkness too) she will stay confused..... All you can do is be a CONSTANT BEACON OF LOVE AND TRUTH.... (no LB's... no angry outbursts.,,, etc..) And even if she goes one hundred yards towards you and 50 yards back and 100 hundred yards toward you and 50 yards back..... she would find her way home..... right?

She WILL say awful things... she WILL do awful things... she WILL ask for a D (then take it all back) she will cry... she will yell and scream.... (so will you... BUT ONLY HERE RIGHT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

It is a roller coaster ride like you'll never experience in your ife <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(if we could re-create it we'd be RICH!! LOL) Ups and downs.... good and bad.... ying and yang..... BUT... it CAN be done.... it takes a LOT of love and a LOT of forgiveness and a LOT of patience and a LOT of tears....and a WHOLE LOT of strength but... it CAN be healed.

This is your time.. your WS has already suffered through HER pain for a long time.... so now....you BOTH have to heal.....a little at a time... two steps forward, one step back....


YOU'RE DOING FINE... GREAT REALLY.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />KEEP US INFORMED AND DO NOT REACT.....DO NOT REACT......DO NOT REACT......DO NOT REACT......DO NOT REACT!!!! JUST LOVE HER AND BE HER "REAL" FRIEND.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS... FRANK

Sorry Dazed,

I had to add these CAUSE I LOVE IT!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
[color:"red"] For the first time in many months I held her all night and she held on to me. [/color]

BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE.... I KNOW HOW GOOD THAT FELT!!

[color:"red"]she told me she loved me and we held each other.
[/color]

NICE... THAT'S STRONG....

[color:"red"] To my surprise she reached for my hand and pulled my arm around her. We snuggled for 15 to 20 minutes before I had to get into the shower. There was tears in her eyes as i had to get up and get ready for work.
[/color]
THE WALLS ARE COMING DOWN LITTLE BY LITTLE... GOOD PROGRESS IN MY EYES... REMEMBER... EXPECT THE BEST.... PREPARE FOR THE WORST....
THAT'S IT..... You made my day,..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS. FRANK

Peach- Frank:
Yes, I agree about providing motivation to change the situation. No one wants to live in the situation were in. This is obvious, just look at the letter WW wrote me this morning. The WW is ready to move in a direction just to get off center. Most people choose the path of least resistance. I think that is what she is ready to do. Also, OM's divorce will be final next monday. I think OM and her are planning her final escape after his court day Monday. I'm not sure but this is my feeling.
What if the path or method to provide that change is not clear or not attractive? My plan A attempt is not finished!
I don't think the path back home to looks very attractive to her, that's why I held off on the Plan B. I know OM has made her all kinds of promisses while running me into the ground.
She does not see a way for us to work this out. She does not want to face the challange of our problems. To her it is easier to walk away and just start over. How do i show her there is a way home that she will want? She knows I love her and want her. She knows there is still an open door to come home. However, the guilt of her actions has her thinking we will never overcome this and we are damaged forever. She thinks there is a great fun filled life out there waiting for her. Okay, I see this a mid-life crisis thing as well. We meet at 12 years old. Started dating at 16. Broke up for six monts at 18 and married at 20. I think she is so curious to what else is out there, it's hard for her to really buy into coming home to me. Other man has also helped paint her a picture of how I have made her nothing more than a house mother and have suffocated her life draining her for all she is worth.

Please read this letter and give me your adivce.


BS-
the thing is-at this time in my life
& our relationship-or what there is of one-- I feel nothing but guilty to know how much you "love" me. I feel sad for hurting you & making you sad. I wonder every minute if I am making all the wrong decisions. I pray for help-but get nothing.I wonder if me filing for divorce will be the biggest mistake I could ever make. It seems wrong-but in a way right.
I feel horrible for thinking it's what I want- & for thinking about that final day when it will no longer be me & you.I don't know what to do.
I constantly have it all in my mind.I don't sleep- I feel sick continually. I worry so much about Kaylee- I know I am ruining her-she feels such hate & sadness for me.
It's hard for me to look at her, but I want to hold her & squeeze her & never let her go. I have felt that way for you too. I'm so scared & sorry. I feel I have let you down & am ruining so many people's lives. I can't win. There is no way anyone comes out good in this situation. I will with no mistake pay someday so much for what I have done.

HI Dazed,
I'm on the way out the door so I need to keep it short...

I think your Plan "A" is working... a month ago she was SURE leaving you for OM was right...now... she sees it as potentialy the biggest mistake of her life...
The thing holding her back I believe is that OM has kept his part of the bargin...he's D his W... so...she's thinking she ruined his life.. (my situation is similar) HOW CAN SHE NOT.."FOLLOW THROUGH"?

Don't discuss the letter unless she does.... then I think it's time again to "GENTLY" reassure her that staying is right and even though OM is D his BS that isn't a reason for her to jump into anything... I mean... if they are "ment to be" (I know... yuck) then what's a couple of months anyway right?

and maybe... you could "GENTLY" tell her that if he can do it to her cheat....lie.... Divorce...(OM's W) he can "Do it to you" maybe... right?

You guys have a great history... (Did you ever see the movie "The Story of US?? if not RENT IT...!!) History is strong.... you have DD.... she obviously doesn't approve.... THAT is VERY strong...

Hang in there... it will be hard because of OM "Keeping his part" of the bargin... BUT....I really believe given a choice... she would stay....

Maybe you could ask her this (If she's in a talking about you guys mood....)
IF you could have a wish... would it be that you and I move past this....WITHOUT... GUILT... ANGER... AND PAIN...and have a PERFECT Marriage... were we BOTH love each other PERFECT..... OR would it be that for you and OM?




Gotta go.. sorry... GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS.. FRANK

Frank-
I just had to reply to that letter. In print that is the most she has been willing to write about her feelings. Here is my response(letter below). Maybe I over done it.... This was brought on this morning by her comments to me. She slept on the couch again. I woke her this morning and first thing she said was; "no ones going to die if were not together right". I simply walk off and went up to our room and closed the door. Later before she left she got angry with me. What I'm I suppose to do? You now want to do everything right and I'm suppose to just through my arms around you and say okay and it's all over. I just can't do that. I wish I could but I can't. You lived your own life with out me and now you love me and want to start over? Our life was all about you, and I have never had nothing that was mine, never done nothing for me. You need to realize that there may never be me and you ever again. She left for work.
Minutes after getting to work she called looking for me. I did not answer. She sent me an email. I'm sorry I'm ruining your life. You know me, I'm sad for making you sad and I need to let you know that. I guess I'm ruining everyones life now and I wish I was no where now.

I had sent her an open invite to join me at the park for lunch today. She declined and said she was going to stay at work for lunch. I though atleast she was not seeing OM. Then I figured well she is a receptionist. He's probably got her on the phone. nice...
She called me during lunch break asking what my plans were for the evening. I had planned on doing several things with daughter. WW asked if she could go to he near by town and visit her old friend and meet me at home. Of course I said that sound good to me and we made some small talk. I thought the worst and hoped for the best. My evening was fun with daughter and went really well until the daughters swim team coach gave me team physical papers to up date. The forms that the WW completed May 5th had OM's stamp and signature for the notary. That made me sick. I know she was seeing that basturd in late March, but his signature and notary stamp on my daughters swim team stuff really got me. Then got to thinking as daughter practiced. I had asked daughter why she quit swimming earlier in the summer. She said well dad how you like to practice every week night from 6 to 8 during the summer? WW told me they were only going two nights. I asked daughter did mommy stay for your practice? She said no she only dropped me off and was usually late picking me up. Then I remembered the WW was really really up set with daughter for quiting. Which was a shocker because WW has never been into sports. Now I know. That was her two hours of play time with OM that lived a 1/4 mile from the swimming pool. Jeeeezzzz.
So I did what I told my self I would not do. I drove by the basturds apartment. He was not there. Imagine that. WW was right on time meeting us at home. She had a wal-mart bag with a tv-vcr-video game connection adapter. I said how did you know what to get? Knowing WW is way stupid when it comes to electronics. She said she asked a wal-mart worker to help her. yeah right. OM's EXW said he was a electronic gadget guy. I snooped through her purse again and did not see any reciept or proof of purchase. I think OM even paid for it.
Reguardless I put on my best attitude and went on. While watching tv i made some jokes and was very kind to WW. She was also kind and friendly. Daughter 12 came down and all three of us joked around with her. That was a first in a long time that WW was playful with daughter and I at the same time. D 12 was very happy with WW and went set down and gave us both a big update about her life at school and swimming, band, music and other extra activities she's into.
This was our first family moment that was not painful sense D day. It almost seemed normal. pinch myself.
After getting daughter to sleep, me and WW watched tv for awhile. I gave her a surprise kiss on the fore head once and she looked confused. We spoke a little about nothing important, and I rubbed her head and neck. Gave her some little pecks her and there. While rubbing her shoulders she got very very warm and sweaty. She teared up, told me she felt sick. So I stopped. I guess it was guilt. I don't know. Maybe she was thinking of OM or something.
In a few minutes she calmed down and kind of moved her head over as to let me know she was okay with me rubbing her head. So I did. I said some loving words. I asked her not to sleep on the couch, but she said she did not deserve a bed. So, I'm up here writing to you all now.
Now that OM's D is final in less than a week, I really think that he is really starting to push her to get her end of the deal in motion. I think this is a very important time for me. What do I do. I wish that OM's soon to be EXW would not give that basturd nothing. She told me he's getting a check for 11,500. I worry that he has big plan's for the money going towards WW. Either financing her gifts, cars, living, or even divorce attourney. I also, wonder if OM asked WW to leave his apartment until final hearing date. If she's gone this time next week, I will know the answer to that one.
I feel bad for saying this but I pray that OM with really pull something to send WW running back home. That would really help me out. I know he is not all that, and the stuff his exw has said about him is just the opposite of what WW would normally like. I just hope and pray that WW will see what he really is before this goes much farther. I think he is smart enough to play her and pretend until he thinks he's won. Obviously he traded his wife of 8 years that he lived off of, in for my wife with out a second thought. He new she was married with kids. None of this mattered. He parked in front of my house stalking my wife, and now tells her I'm stalking him. He used his wife's cell phone to text message my wife. All while we were in bed with out spouses. Called 20 WW times the night of our 13th aniversary. Now I know why she became ill and we did nothing at all. He lies about me damaging his truck to get me in trouble with the police and WW. Yes, this all really gets me mad. This is why I ask god to make sure he gets his for what he has done. Maybe that is wrong of me.


(letter)
WS-
I'm so sorry, I have been in meetings all day and have another on the way and just seen your letter.
I wish I had time to call you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Yes, I know you are so tired of where were at. Me too.. It is painful for both of us. I'm sure your want to find some peace and normalcy in your life and so do I.

Please don't just do something you might regret just to being doing something. I agree we need to find a direction and start towards it.
I will share with you something that XYZ attourney told me about divorce.
He asked me to tell him about us and why I was there.
When I talked to him about us he said clearly you are still in love with her. And it sounds like she still loves you. He asked me one question to leave his office and think about before I answered. "Only proceed with a divorce when you are SURE you NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER want your wife back again". He said you may file and before your final hearing you guys may decide to work on trying to save your marriage. But, unless you know in your heart of hearts you do not ever want this woman as your wife, do not file and spend my time and your money and regret it.

His last words were: I'm no counselor but, if you two are not violent people then I suggest you find a pro-marriage counselor and try to work things out before giving up. He made me think. I thought about what he said. I do still love you very much. I do still want you as my wife.

WS-Let me help you figure out what to do. Let's do it together. Yes, it's my fault for not making sure you were in every part of my life and me in yours. That is what I want WS. I'm so tired of being alone too. I want a marriage that we are as equals and friends together in every part of life. Sharing and living together with common goals and interest. This is what creates friendship and love that last forever. Yes, I got that part all wrong and I'm so sorry I'm so stupid and just now got it. I know you want this too. I understand your anger about what took so long. I guess I had to fail to see the way WS.

You may not see a path to get through this that in the end leads to us being together, but I do. I will help show you that it is not as scary and painful as you may think it looks now.
WW-Always remember and never forget I LOVE YOU.
Me.

What r u trying t/d with your letter? What is the objective?

Remember you don't want the OM to send the WS back. If a WS doesn't willingly relinquish their WS title, then any other type of return doesn't count. U w/b the last choice. Hurtful? Yes. So don't go that direction. Don't settle for less than you deserve.

IMHO, the WS doesn't deserve a letter like that. Don't spill your beans of what your lawyer said. It will only be twisted and used against you.

So what t/d? Well a stellar plan A followed by a swift and solid plan B w/b better 4 u.

JMHO,
L.

HI Dazed,

Wow... what a day of ups and downs you had... Great that the three of you felt "normal" together... bad what you found out about DD swim team... I can remember sitting straight up in bed when a piece of the puzzle dropped into place... rarely a nice feeling...

Well... that's in the past anyway... these things will crop up and hurt you as the puzzle is filled in .. but you can't focus on them...DO NOT REACT...remember? At least don't let her see you react or let it knock you off your course.


See.... the ying and yang... you guys had a great couple of days there... then..... the "bad" side pulled back. And evened the score... a tug of war....always happens this way...
BUT.... you pull two feet and lose one when it pulls back... and you win in the long run... that's Plan "A" (without LB's)

It's a battle I know all to well...very frustrating.... but somehow necessary. Expect the best.... prepare for the worst that's all we can do.

I agree... this is a crucial time for you... I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I read your thoughts about OM sending her home until his D is final... and OM giving her the money for a lawyer to D you..

I think you may be right about these things... But remember.... as much as you screwed up before... he may be screwing up now sending her home. That's giving you a chance to do a good Plan "A" and you are doing a REALLY REALLY GOOD ONE...

I mean keeping that information about DD's swim team to yourself must have been REALLY hard.... I'm proud of you buddy... you're getting tough!! You're fighting this thing SMART..!!

The bad side... the dark side....satan.... whatever you want to call it threw you a curveball on the outside corner with that "puzzle piece" ... you didn't chase it... BALL ONE.... Good Job!!

As long as you don't react (Chase the junk pitches..) He can NEVER strike you out... Right?

OK... the letter.... although it was well said... I wouldn't have given it to her... not a big mistake but you should wait for the "right moment" to discuss your Marriage with her... and the "right moment" is when SHE brings it up.. not you.

You are just being someone she can be comfortable with at this point.... building Love deposits in her Love Bank....
Unfortunately most of the letter probably went "unheard"..... for now at least....WS's can't see that kind of stuff.... the fog is too dense....

If you gave it to her when SHE wanted to talk or the "timing" (the brief lifting of the fog that you've seen when she takes your arm and puts it around her for example) then.... it may get through... but.... the other side will try and pull it back out of her heart..... and make it sound like begging or false promises....but it is there DEEP in her heart. I believe it's what she REALLY wants but thinks she can't REALLY have.

All you can do while she's home is be a "safe" person...a friend..... that's what the OM started as.... want WHATEVER will make HER happy...

We know the truth about this affair.... it's not real.....she will learn someday too..... but..... she has to learn it all by herself..... too bad for her....

Oh... one thing she said was hopeful...
WS SAID: " I guess I'm ruining everyone's life now and I wish I was no where now."

Hmm... everyone's life? That proves that OM is pushing her... maybe WS has told her she's confused... and OM is saying "HEY... I'm keeping up MY end...."!!!

Good sign...he's not in as good of a place as you may think...... I'm sure your Plan "A" is having an effect....
This is crunch time for you now buddy....NO MORE LB's....NO MORE REACTING (responding to her comments or letters or actions)

I think there is a 50-50 chance she will leave again when OM's divorce is final....at this point that is...you may have less than a week to finish your Plan "A"..... so don't make any BIG moves without posting first....
50-50 is still MUCH better than you had a month ago believe me..... you put a dent in this fog festival LOL!!!

But.. affairs END....and I think this one even if she leaves again will fizzle relatively quickly....

So.... prepare in your mind and heart for the worst... she leaving in a week... BUT think of this.... what is SHE thinking?

Is she thinking that she's move in with OM and eventually DD will join them? NOT LIKELY....(now that she sees DD's reaction since the A has been exposed....) She may have thought that when she left before but not now....there isn't enough fog in the WORLD to get her to believe that now!!

So she KNOWS... if she leaves she's be leaving DD behind... so I think what she will do is try and bait you into a fight of some sort to "excuse" her leaving this time.... DON'T FALL FOR IT.....

Maybe try and get you to throw her out (after leaving clues that she is still seeing OM like tonight)....

See... if you don't fall for the curve balls.... she has to leave as a BAD person... not a VICTIM of a bad Marriage...especially since the affair is in the open.....

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK... I'M PRAYING FOR YOU GUYS..... FRANK

Just a suggestion on how to approach her guilt and concerns for reconciliation with family.

I know that if I had your experience my immediate family (parents, brothers and sisters) would chip in for a hit man to take out wife. They would do this not because they hate WW but because they love ME.

Is there someone in your family your W is/was close with OR is especially afraid to meet again? If so then talk to that person. Explain what you are doing and WW concern. Ask that person to contact WW – preferably in person and tell her that the family will accept her back. That the family is willing to reconcile with her since the two of you as a couple are one. That their resentment is more about the present situation rather than the WW.

I recon you will need to convince the family member. Tell him that doing this is not a way to show love for WW but to show love for you.

Bigger- No one on my side has said anything to her face. Mother and brother have said stuff to others that has made it back to her. WW's family members are the ones that have thrown it right in her face. I have told them all that I had a part in our marriage going bad and i still want to work out our problems and i love her very much. At first I told them a lot of detail about her actions and what I knew about OM. At first I did not know that SIL actually contributed to the affair and already new him. I think they will get over it especially if I talk to them. IMO WW thinks her innocent little princess image is totaly shot to ****** now and I'm the one that let the cat out of the bad so I'm the bad guy.
Also me tipping off OM's parents about there seven month trist and how badly her and OM has destroyed our family and daughter really got both of them. WW still thinks that holidays at OM's parent would be okay. That has got to be really screwed up. Who would welcome a woman into there house and family knowing about there affair and the damage it has caused.
UPDATE:
Not much news to report at this time.
This morning we talked briefly. She woke me up. I set up and asked her to set with me. She did. I brushed her hair back and gave her a hug. She said I can't do this any more. She then laid her head on my shoulder as I held her. I told her that I loved her and we set our foreheads together. All I said to her comment was It will be okay WW.
Last night after sending in my post here, i wrote WW an email so she would see it first thing when at work today.
I guess i will attach it.(letter) below.
She told me today she cried after reading it.

WW-
Hi, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As I write this letter your down stairs on the couch sleeping.
Like sleeping beauty. Sleeping beauty that I wish I could kiss and sweep up in my arms and spend the rest of time loving each other.

For real girl---
You sleeping on an old couch and hurting your back, shoulders, being cold and alone makes me feel sad. There is no need to punish your self by sleeping on a couch. You must miss sleeping in our bed room and I'm sure you want to. There was many times I thought about sweeping you up in my arms and carry you up the stairs to lay you down to rest on your bed.
Maybe I should have. You can let me know: Y or N

Running my fingers through your hair is just like heaven. As I said your hair is as soft as clouds, your face is a beautiful as an Angels. Your eye's are as brilliant as the pretty blue sky. To touch you is like the feel of a delicate rose pedal. To be near you is to enjoying the smell and beauty of a rose. This is why I always send you roses WW.

Really, it's okay to let yourself feel good and comfortable in your home. Yes, I said it. Your home. This is your place to retreat and relax. You are safe here, you are loved here and please feel comfortable here. Tomorrow night you can rest your head and mind in our bed if you would like, your option.

I think I will go be by your side tonight and sleep on the other couch or floor. Just as long as your not alone.

Good night and good morning all at the same time.
Love you
Me

I don't see the point here...she is going to try to file for divorce.

You have shown her you'd take her back anytime. Your letter? Did it make her leave the fog? Part about "only divorce if you never want your spouse back?"...that goes in one ear of the foggy and out the other.

You have done a stellar plan A. You really have.

But so many of us, including my bud Orchid...feel a dark b is on the horizon now.

You have done well. But know that nothing you are doing right now is making her want to change the course she is taking...she is eating cake and more cake and getting love letters from you...while it's a good plan A, she does not see any point to change...

Please rethink what it is you are doing now.

I think you know my favorite quote from Einstein.

She needs to find some motivation (has none now) to want to find her way home. That would be seeing if this total idiot of a man (om)is even capable of meeting en's and how the absence of her daughter will work....and it won't.

She has not had chance to fall down yet. You won't let her fall...you keep HELPING her up.

She needs to hit rock bottom ok?

Loving toughness is needed now.

WW just called and said she got in to trouble today for violation of company email policy. She said I can no longer email her, and she is going to resign if they don't fire her first.
I called her just before lunch to talk to her about daughter and she said the the IT guy was working on her computer and she had to go. So, i don't think she is feeding me a story just to get me to stop emailing her. She told me that it was not my fault it was hers. So I'm setting here guessing whats next or if this turn of events will help me or hurt me.
I bet that OM was sending her stuff like crazy. Remember how many text messages they were sending each other before i killed the cell phone. 400 text messages per month with 300 phone calls per month. Me severing the cell phone really caused major pain for WW. I could see her going through withdrawls.. No joke. She used to sleep with her phone and hold it all day. I caught her holding the tv remote and home cordless like her cell for the first couple of weeks after i smashed it. I dygress.
I hope he is the cause of this. He's only been gone from working there for 10 days, maybe is was sending stuff from his new job that got her caught up. She really seemed down last week similar to when I broke the cell phone. I bet withdrawls of him not being with her all day had something to do with that.
Or maybe there IT department is just now cleaning up his old computer and found stuff. Let's hope it's his fault.
If she becomes un-employeed and he is sited as the reason that would have to help our cause would it not. If I'm sited as the reason that would have to really hurt I would think.
The other downer here is that we did talk via email and she would always read and respond to everything I wrote. Email has provided a way for me to reach her at any time even if she was mad at me.
This might play into OM getting that 11500 dollar check from his EXW Monday morning... To bad that god could not intervine there and let that poor woman keep all her money and that loser not get nothing.
How good would this look to WW;
1) OM just proved his EXW correct about never holding a job for more than 6 to 12 months. Now just started a new one.
2) WW possibly unemployeed with only a high school education, and if she leaves this job on bad terms this would make 3 out her last 5 ending on bad terms. Also only holding this job for 1 year.

This will be anothe twist in a already twisted story. eh

Okay Peach--
I understand and i do not disagree that this day may come sooner or later.
When I do the plan A right does that not provide the positive motivation by stuffing her full of cake? I feel that I have to see this through.
I know plan B is motivation by starvation. All negitive no nothing not even crumbs.
How does one know when the time is right to turn to starvation. I know I will look like a heartless _sshole in her eyes and all our fate is in OM's hands to fail her.
The wild card is our daughter. WW would have to leave her and she knows it. She knows DD will not have anything to do with her OM, EVER. DD has told her she will go where daddy goes and she hates that guy so bad that she wants to hurt him. Sad and I know DD is damaged and needs IC over this but, my point is WW knows it OM or ME and DD.
I have done some really good stuff but LBed to many times in my book. Me as her light house has been very bright some times blinding yet often moving and flashing.
As of right now I would let her back in with open arms. Until I think otherwise, why would I ask her to pick and choose. The last time I did this she left and violently bounced and really hurt me and daughter. This is where I really LBed the crap out of her. This has shown in consistancy in my behavior. One day I love her and will do anything, the next I telling her to choose now or leave. I just don't see the logic turning to the Plan B until the Plan A has went up to the 9th ining.
Maybe I'm wrong. I think it was Mortarman that said he went through 5 months of absolute ****** before turning to Plan B and with in weeks she was back in his arms. Maybe it was not Mortarman but the point is he went 5 months in plan A. To me that is pitching up to the ninth and bringing in your closer to save the game.
Please let me know if I'm way off here...

Your WW is responsible for her own pending unemployment...YOU and HER still don't get it.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Who is responsible and who gets the blame are often two different people. "Some people just don't get it".
My though is I would get blamed for it.
As it turned out the owner of WW's company has been entertaining himself for the last 6 months watching her email. He called her into his office today and told her he knew everything that has happened and she should go home to her daughter and husband. She says she was in shock. He told her several email names of people that she has been talking with. She says she told him she is very uncomfortable with him now and this is weird. She says she went right to her super and gave her two week notice. Owner guy ask to speak with her in private tomorrow morning. She don't want to. Knowing that he knows everything she has emailed for the last 6 months, WW must really really shaking scared. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Oh-by the way she did not blame me for anything. Not mad at me at all. I'm sure WW company owner has got some real good stuff from me to read. I bet he has enough dirt on her that one could not believe.

I think this is a very splendid turn of events for you if you still desire your wayward cheating wife back. She is being smacked upside the head with consequences of her actions....sometimes this is the impetus that cheaters need to "de-fog". It may not be the knock down punch you needed, but it was a good turn of events for you nonetheless.

Congrats, I guess. You are probably one step closer to your WW hitting "bottom". Usually when that happens, everything else goes to $hit...inluding illicit affairs.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope that she goes through with her plan to resign. She told me the owner asked her to not quit her job. He says he really likes her and she has done a good job there. Yah right. This coming from the same guy that she says hits on her and always has the fish hook in the water to see if she will bite. Well if he has been seeing her email and knows she is into cheating, then he has probably been testing her IMO.
She claims that when the HR email came across the computers that he popped his head out of his office and gave her a dirty look. Then he went to there HR and asked them to give her another day to think about leaving. She said that her manager works at the other end of the building and knows nothing about what was going on and was shocked when she gave him her notice.

She is not stupid. I think she has to know if she quits then her options get limited fast. I have a feeling she is not going to quit. If they all want her to stay she may rethink the quiting. She claims that HR has already sent out her leaving notice to the company. The owners office is 20 feet from her desk at the front door. Seeing him and hearing him all day must make her feel bad knowing he knows more about what she is doing than any other person on earth.

If guilt and shame has bothered her knowing how little I know about her and him. Then I can't imagine how she could set at that desk all day 20 feet from a man that owns the place that knows every dirty little word that she has said to me, to OM, to her friends, and vice versa. Like I said earlier, he must have some real filth on her.

She says that she knows it his buisness and that it is his right to fire her for this. However, she feels like he is a pervert or wrong reading all her stuff for six months. Then offering her advice based off of what he has read from her email. This does all sound very weird to me. I would have thought he would have just fired her. Not offer to be a friend and suggest she go home to her daughter and work on her marriage. I guess I applode the guy if he really said that, but I question his motive here. I think we would all be better off if she was unemployeed.

Last night I mainly just listened to what she had to say about work. Just to be a friend to listen to her and be sympathetic. I gave her a CD I bought for her over lunch time. Yah, not a great time for a gift but I had already told her about it before she got caught at work. She slept on the couch again in her cloths.

This morning when i woke her she was pissy about me touching her to wake her up and was with drawn.
I told her this morning that she can stay home as long as she needs to find another job. I make enough we will be okay and we can together work out the bills so she will see.
She only said that is good to know.
I noticed again as she came out of the bath room she had tears in her eyes. I asked if she was okay just to be nice. She says; "You know my life, no i'm not okay".
On the way out the door for school, daughter gave her a very nice hug and was very nice telling mommy she loved her and wanted to play her music tonight.
To be nice. I made a trip to the store bought her a pop and snack and magazine to read. Knowing she is always late, never eats breakfast and needs a pop in the morning this would be a good jesture. She was walking out of the house just as i pulled up so the surprise was foiled. I just gave her the pop and snack because she was holding the CD i just gave her. However, I was happy to see that she was holding the CD i just gave her, I could not slip in the new Marie Clair mag. Oh well, maybe that would have been over the top anyway. She does like reading mags, just stuff like Cosmo, and crap like People. Her taking the CD was a good thing. It has some really good songs on it that I have dedicated to her or us in the past. Plus I made the CD and case insert with some loving stuff on it.

Okay-I'm back again. I'm feeling frustrated right now. I can't concentrate on anything at work. Just thinking about what I should do next with this mess of a marriage.
It bothers me that so manys times what looks like an oppourtunity that can really us turns into a dud. I wished she would get fired right after I found that she was workig with that loser OM. I new I would have no chance as long as she was seeing him and he worked there. I can see that i have made small steps forward with her since he quit working there. She can no longer see him and flirt with him during work ours. Also, no break time together and lunch time is harder. This has all worked for me.
However, I new that he has very easy access to her because of email and a phone.

Okay-most of you say she needs to hit rock bottom. Yes, she is close and I guess I'm the only thing stopping her. Here is my deal with this.
1) Thinking of her at rock bottom hurts.
2) How do I let her get there with out being the bad guy that she will resent. This is the tricky part for me. Will she see that I'm not the one doing this to her and want to come back to me.
This is also in the back of my mind. She struggled with me in our 13 year marriage for a very long time. Our marriage has not been smooth by no stretch of the imagination. There are skeletons in the closet that i have not told you all about as well. My point is, she spent a very long time being unhappy in our marriage before she allowed her self to fall in love with another. This really makes me scared to turn her over to OM to see how long they last. Knowing she was unhappy with me for so long before giving up on me.
Other than my daughter not going with her, and hoping OM is the loser I think he is, why would she not give him the same patients she gave me.
My former sister in law did just what WW is doing. She left her husband for OM. She had a year and half affair with OM before getting caught. She lied about all of it and they were friends and so on. All her friends and family did not support her living the family for OM. Her own parents will not be in the same building with OM. My former SIL has none of her old friends and no family agrees with her. Even OM's parents treat her poorly and told OM to not include her in family functions. See he left his wife and kids for this women too. They also work together and still do. He is a complete loser. All his pay goes to child support and alomony. Former SIL does all the house work, mows the lawn, pays the bills and even complains that OM is not good in bed. This is words she told me. He is a great friend that her husband never was. They have fun together and he makes her happy in that way she never was before. However, she also believes she gave up so much for him that she feels she has to make it work. She lost her husband, family, friends, and her son all for this man. She says she discovers more and more things all the time that she does not like about him but what can she do now. She still believes they were ment for each other it's just they meet at the wrong time in there lives for everything to work out perfect. I think this is crap or fog as you call it.
She knows she is trapt and has to much pride to addmit it. No they are not married. They are shacked up together with both his kids and hers coming and going all the time. They have now been living together for a year. She also told me she has studied how long relationships born from affairs ususally last. She says two years. She says she has seen most people she knows doing the affair relationship thing and none of them work out. She is worried about hers but thinks that there special. Because she worked with him for 10 years and they were friends for 5 and lovers for 2 before there shack up arrangement.
This is a woman that my WW turns to for help. So you see why I say so many things seem to work against me.
Why do so many people cheat on there spouses. Why do so many women think they can just trade in there husband on a new man that makes them laugh?
If I had a dollar for every time my wife said, "People get divorced all the time" I would be a rich man.
Me I'm the product of a broken marriage. I know the pain of being 10 years old and seeing your parents fight about everything in front of you. My father was a horrible husband and father to me. My mother equal. I lived three years with my grand parents and two of those years my mother never spoke to me.
This is why I never even once looked at another woman as someone I would ever be with. To me my wife is my one true love and I have never thought of being with another woman. Besides love, I never forgot how divorce destroyed my life as a child. It robbed me of a childhood. Forced me to grow up and loose my innocents. I have never forgot what it did to me. I never wanted to do this to my child.
Now my WW never had a dad. Her mother had 10 husbands. Her sister is about to fail at her 3rd marriage and has had sex with several dozen men. WW's friends incourage her affair.
For years and years WW and me would lay in bed on sundays and talk about how special our marriage was. How horrible everyone else was for cheating and having sex with out marriage and love. She used to refer to her sister as the slut. She used to tell me she was embarrassed to go to school as a little girl and not have the same last name as her mom, brother, and sisters.
Now she has fell from what she believed and joined the club of what she never want to be.
Sorry about just rambling with out a point.

Some times I catch myself thinking as if this never happened. I catch myself reaching for the phone to call wife and she where she wants to go to lunch today. Forgetting that she will not go because that is her time with him. She has not accepted my offer in six months. I catch myself thinking about where we can go for the week end for fun. Forgetting she was not went out of town with me nine months other than Niece's custody trial in April. I pinch myself to know I'm awake and then pray.

What does people think my odds are getting her back ever?

dazed

Experts:
I need your help....
I'm very worried about this week end.
OM's Divorce is final Monday Morning. He will most likely collect $11500 from his BW.
WW has offically resigned from her job and she is not considering staying. She claims to have put in resumes over her lunch hour today. I figure the first place would be where ever OM is now working. I can tell the last two weeks of work with out him has made for some serious withdrawls.

I'm afraid of what the week end has in store for me...
ANY LAST MINUTE ADVICE...
What can i do if anything to keep her from seeing OM?
Dazed.

plan b..and rock bottom for ww.

Attached is my plan B letter. I know it's longer than most and you all may rip it apart. It's long because of a couple reasons.
1) My plan A is not finished. D-Day was 9-6-05 and affair started February 2005.
2) I have done many LB's during attempt to plan A.
3) It may be the last love letter I ever write her.


WS,

In our fifteen plus years together, I never imagined us reaching the point where we are today. It brings overwhelming sadness and sorrow that I write you this letter. Just as you said a couple days ago; I also can't not believe what has happened between us either. I do believe you when you tell me that you still love me, and will always care for me. Yes, I believe you, that you never planned to be with any one other than me, and this relationship with Jeremy was an accident.
Our marriage has been filled with many good times and some bad. Sharing half our life together has connected us in many ways that will last forever. I will always remember and cherish the wonderful things you have given me. Together we have been so blessed with a beautiful daughter that loves us both so very much. Over the years you have been a wonderful wife, mother, and person. Recalling all the truly great things you have done for (D12) it simply overwhelms me. I truly believe inside us there will always live (WS-n-BS). I love you more than anything else in this world. There is nothing I want more than our family to remain together, and me and you as best friends and husband and wife.
Again, I apologize for my part in making your affair with (OM) possible. I believe if I would have been there for you as your friend, and husband, like I was suppose to be, then no man would have been able to turn your head. In the last couple of months, you have helped me recognize and understand how I have hurt you and failed in our marriage.
I regret what I have done wrong in our marriage and that we find ourselves in a place that is so full of pain for both of us. When I look back it makes me sick to my stomach to see how I lived in denial of your affair and reacted with anger and disrespect towards you. I did not realize how my selfishness, unhappiness, and resentment were only driving you closer to (OM).
In the last few years I selfishly pursued a racing career without living up to my responsibility to meet your needs as my wife. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. You have helped me understand how lonely you were and felt so left out of life. You, the most important person and part of my life I neglected so badly that you did not feel I loved you or cared about you. I want to sincerely apologize for all the pain I caused by not making you feel appreciated, special, and my first priority.
I am willing to avoid the mistakes I have made in the past and create a NEW life for us that will make us happy and meet all of your needs. I have been and will continue to work on making changes in the things about myself that have been the cause of our unhappiness for you and me in our marriage. I have demonstrated to myself that it’s possible to make changes and that I can make them permanent. I still have much work to do but, with help from you and others I’m learning how NOT to make the same mistakes again.
Our marriage is at a place that is very confusing and painful. Your relationship with Jeremy is keeping us from restoring our marriage and is continuing to pull it apart. The way you have bounced back and fourth from me to him, and in and out of our lives this year is beyond difficult. I can not scramble for the crumbs of attention and love that you offer me. Months of lies to sneak around with Jeremy, which are still continuing, and your behavior in our home undermines my love for you. You continue to tell me that you love me and care about me; you will hug me and hold me tightly and then you call or run off to him. You can not have both of us and I can not and will not share you any longer.
I have told you I will always be there for you, and that I will forgive you. But your affair continues to inflict great pain on me and our family. I have been waiting for you to decide whether or not you will recommit to our marriage. Your excuses for not ending your affair and not trying to work out our problems are tearing our family apart. I have been trying to show you how much I love you and want to work out our problems. But this pain challenges my ability to forgive you, and is chipping away at my love for you. I know you are also hurting and I would give anything to help ease your pain. I truly believe in forgiveness, healing, and redemption for both of us.
In order to preserve the love, thoughts and dreams I still have for you, I can not see or talk to you any longer.


*If you end your affair with (OM) and choose to discuss building a new life with me, I will welcome you with an open heart and mind back in to my life. Until that time, it will not be possible for me to have any contact with you. No personal visits with you, telephone conversations, mail, or even see you. This space will make it possible for me to wait until you end all contact with (OM) forever, and are ready to work out a plan to recover our relationship, marriage and family that is mutually agreeable.
Please respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know how hard this is for me and about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with Jeremy. I simply can not be with you any longer knowing you are with him too.
If you need to communicate with me, please find someone in your family to pass your messages along. I will continue to assume care for (D12) 24x7. You can, of course spend your free time with her as much as you wish, as long as Jeremy is not involved. I also ask that you respect the planning that is necessary for a single father and get my approval at least in advance, not directly and not through (D12), but through your family contact of choice. In this way I can plan for shopping, meals, homework, activities, etc. When I require a babysitter or when she is being cared for by another adult, I will inform you so you know who is caring for our daughter. When you call the house or my cell phone to visit with (D12), I will not speak to you unless an emergency.
Any of your cloths and personal belongings that you still need from the house, have your family person of choice contact me, and I will retrieve them from the house and leave the items in the garage for you to pick up. I will no longer be able to support or provide for you as a friend, or husband. You will need to find your own place to live immediately. I will continue to pay for all of mine and (D12’s) financial obligations in order to keep the house running. I will not change any of our bank accounts. You are also expected to support yourself with out any of my help.
(WS), my wish is for us to create a new relationship, to build a new life where each thing we do, every day of our lives, makes us both happy as it once did when we first fell in love. My willingness to do this in the worst of times is part of the promise I made to you years ago. And I do still believe in you. But right now, letting you go and distancing myself from your actions is the only way I can protect my heart. I don’t do this in anger but out of love us. I need to restore some normalcy to my life and (D12’s) so that we can remain healthy, find some peace, and I can continue to repair myself.
A future with me can be different from our past. Why? Because we both want change. Now is our chance (WS). We have an opportunity to write out our futures together. One full of all the life and happiness we always wanted. Either way we go it's going to change, so why not make a future where all three in our family are happy and we change it together?
For the first time in my life I have stripped away all the years of baggage between us. Something I should have done years ago. I have accepted all my faults and failures with us.
It did take the world to stop turning for me to cut through all the layers of crap that had paralyzed my love for you. No matter what, when, where, why, and how. The point is I'm here now. Just a man with an open heart and mind.
I'm eager to rediscover the person I should have been before I became lost in my own devices. I will be a man that is thoughtful, sensitive, caring, sharing, respectful, friendly, fun and happy. A man that’s life that is inviting to be around that is not pressed for time and selfish expectations of others. I want to be the rock of support and motivation for our daughter as she grows and moves through life.
For the first time in so many years I come to you with nothing between us but the promise to love you and become the man of our dreams. Hopefully I will be that man with you.

I miss my best friend. I miss my life partner, my wife, the mother of my daughter, my first and only true love. There is no one with whom I would rather spend my life with.

Remember me; I’m the one who loves you.

(BS)

do me a favor...the letter is good...but do one thing...and with a big red pen like your elementary teachers used to do...

CROSS OUT ALL THE PARTS WHERE YOU...THE BS...CLAIM RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR WW BECOMING A WW.

we want your w to hit rock bottom ok? she is close...she resigned (as far as you truly know) from her job. she may be fired in reality as I would suspect. and I would call the hr of om employer and expose if you think your ww has put in her application for eomplyment there.

she is also considering filing for divorce.

all that has happened here is more of the same stuff...you hand her plates full of cake and give her the spoon to eat it with.

I want your family to heal....but being the one to take the fall for her cheating is NOT the way to do it. she has to WANT to come home...and you have to make yourself look attractive again...

and to a ww or ws or wh or whatever...they want to see the door closing...they want to have to chase you again...and they have to have some motivation to return. motivation would be letting her have him...letting them love bust like mad..letting her leave her child...and losing her job...well we can see the whole recipe for disaster...living on love and 11k.

that's it. and `11k will not go far in this world.

be ready....she's up to something big I fear. I would be proactive and do something before she does...so she can bust faster.

your a was good...except for the night where you drug her home and talked to her like a third grader.

other than that, you've done a good plan a.

but she is still vascillating between you and om.

furthemore, she is breaking the heart also of her child...and that is horrible...more horrible sometimes to me how the kids suffer than the bs suffer.

something has to give. your family cannot stay sane in this awful limbo created by your ww.

let's get it straight. the woman had a choice to cheat or not to cheat. to keep a family or destroy one. she chose to do whatever she felt like doing...and she chose to simply feel good in the moment.

wrong choice. but she has had NO CONSEQUENCES FOR HER ACTIONS WHATSOEVER.

so she keeps on doing it...and believes that you will always be there, fatherlike and proper...there to clean up her little life messes.

Peach-
I agree about your suggestions on my PBL.
I like your comments about her chasing me. You are so right. The one being chased, WW has no reason to change because now I'm doing all the chasing. First time in our relationship I might add.

I think I spoiled OM's big plans for the evening. He keeps driving by the house. Real low life basturd. I tried to get WW to go out and eat with me and DD but she would not. Once she even put on her shoes and grabbed her purse but set down on the couch. Must have not got the courage to leave me and DD. DD is disappointed with WW now because she wanted all of us to go do something. I finally went and got food. That's when I seen low life driving by. It was hard for me to calm down before going back in the house. That's why I'm here for the moment.
Thanks Peach. I will write more on this later. Probably work on letter tomorrow.
Dazed

HI Dazed,


I think your B letter is very good.... I wouldn't change anything but this "When you call the house or my cell phone to visit with (D12), [color:"red"] I will not speak to you unless an emergency.
[/color]

That's a little bit of an out for her... YOU get to decide what is an emergency... not her.... and you probably should restrict her from calling your cell....

I'd probably would remove the "please remember me" also now that I think of it... a little beggy.....

The parts about your part in making it possibile for her to have an A is PURE HARLEY so I think that it's good you added them. It seems you read Harley's Plan "B" letter example....

Good job..... remember.... nothing is different yet... all is speculation over what will happen ie: she gets a job with OM (that could work FOR you... you never know... the GOOD side pulls sometimes too you know!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

About her hitting "bottom" I agree with you there... it doesn't ALWAYS have to happen.... It is painful for the WS the BS and really hard on the children to see a parent hit bottom and almost have a nervious break down...


And....I think the harder they hit.... the longer and harder the recovery because of the loss of self esteem which.... when you think of it... is a LARGE part of the reason WS become WSs. They are looking for someone to make them "Feel" good about themselves......to give the ego a lift..


Let's face it.. it's like with your young child... you want them to learn not to touch the stove but..... letting them get a 3rd degree burn OR.... FORCING THEIR HAND INTO THE FIRE ALL THE WHILE SAYING "TIME YOU LEARNED WHY YOU SHOULDN'T DO THIS"........isn't the answer either....then they are scared for life.... And when they get "Home" who will be the person that burned them? Not very loving and protecting....



You want your child to learn lifes lessons with as little pain as possible....and when they DO make a mistake...you should lovingly show them the error of their ways...and help them heal ... or in this case WS to heal COMPLETLEY some day with as little reminder (scars) as possibile...)


OK I know she is an adult... but.... she is a WS.. they aren't all that adult thinking during an A.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (even you DD knows what your WS is doing is wrong!!)

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS...(I'll be praying hard for you guys over the next 7 days..) HANG TOUGH..... BELIEVE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />........DON'T REACT......

dazed,

As the attorney in the bunch I fear the inclusion of all the responsibility taking may make maintaining custody of your 12 year old an issue. It might be pure Harley but in this situation you have a family to look out for. Your wife may not be fighting for custody now but once her attorney sees how "everything was your fault" in such detail and in your handwriting he/she may say "why not go for it, you poor, poor, neglected wife". Rewrite it with an eye towards what the divorce court will think of it if read aloud in court. Protect your backside.

just my $.02.

Mr. Wondering

P.S.- I am so glad your attitude has changed. PLEASE HELP and others really seem to have gotten you on track now with a solid plan. A plan can be so empowering.

Mrs. W- Point taken.
Mr. W - Thanks for the support.
Frank- okay, maybe please has no place in a PBL.

I knew this week end was going to be tough.
Okay- Friday night WW acted very very flighty. I knew she wanted out bad but she hung around being very anti-social.
D12 told me this morning that she asked WW when I was out of the room why she does not play or talk to her any more. Not sure what WW said, but D12 was in her room crying. I went up to check on her and found her sad. So we put in a DVD and I decided to hang out with her to help her feel better. About 30 minutes later in walks WW all dressed up holding purse. Ask if I could move my truck so she could leave. I asked where are you going? She says out. I said you would rather leave than spend any time with us, okay. So, knowing I was really upset. Instead of moving my truck I got in it and left to go cool off. Went to the park to watch the fountains and think. Fell a sleep there. Woke up around 3Am and came home. WW on the couch says nothing.

This morning I snooped through her purse. Found a new cell phone. Seen she called OM at 10 last night. Just before asking me to move so she could go out.
Found hidden job application under make up basket. I think maybe he is working there.
This morning I baked some rolls first thing for breakfast. WW says she wants nothing from me and refused to look at me.
Oh- almost forgot. I seen OM circle our block several times last night. I know I spoiled some big plan by leaving.
Later this morning WW was in our room looking for cloths and sees a new door key on the dresser. She gets a weird look and says what is this. I told her its D12's new door key to her porch for the new handle assy. I installed last week end. She gives me the key and says prove it. So, I did.
I told her that if was going to change door locks I would at least tell her what I was doing. She says I doudt that. She still had a weird look. I ask, are you okay. She says no, I'm sick. I asked what I could do to help. She says you don't get it. NOTHING..Where not going to be together. We will never work out. I asked how could she predict the future. She turned and walked away.
I SHOULD HAVE JUST AVOIDED HER...LOVE BUSTERS
A few minutes later in the laundry room, she says: why are you doing this. Why can't you just leave me alone. It's over. You never loved me so just let go. When will you get it. I said you tell me you don't love me. She says I do just not in the right way. I said, your love elsewhere is not in the right way, and deep in side I think you know that. I left the room.
Then upstairs she started the same stuff. Telling me to just let her go and accept we are over and that I never cared or loved her for years so why now. I told her I never stopped, you just want to justify completely killing us. I told her: Because I still love you, I will not just happily go along with ripping our family in half. She got mad yelled a bunch of stuff at me. I asked her again how she knows that she is going to be happy elsewhere. She says well I never was here so what. Look at everything I have, its all crap. There is no us any more, you are not going to make me feel bad any more. You can not make me feel guilty for nothing, you can be sad I don't care. You can run off somewhere to be sad and I'm not going to come looking. She slamed shut the bath room door in front of me. Through some stuff around. D12 yelled at her to stop. WW yelled at me some more. I asked her I went out side to avoid any more. WW then left to go to her hair & nail appointment.
Me and D12 had loose plans on spending the day and possible night out of town. I don't know if I should go now or not. I feel like crap. My guess is if I'm gone, WW will be with OM for sure. If I'm here probably 80%.
I know LB's...
Do I continue with Plan A until she leaves with all her stuff and of files for divorce? I know several have said to get her out. Plan B and file. Some say, wait for plan B until there are not other options.

IMHO:

1. Get your DD to a counselor ASAP. Your W is harrassing your child and you are allowing it.

2. U get to a IC or call Jennifer ASAP. Learn how to id your boundaries and stand up for your family.

3. Form a bond with you and your DD as a family unit. A team. Be each other's support. She doesn't need videos, she needs to talk. She needs reassurance you and her are on the same page.

4. Secure your finances away from the WS' grasp. If the OM is brave enough to circle your home, he may want to take what you have via the WS. If there is any ring of truth to that theory, this c/b Very dangerous.

5. Check into your option for filing for full custody of your child. Yep get ready to take the D walk or the WS will bleed you until you are all dried up. Your W may not want that but the WS is in control right now and it w/b against your family's interest to allow her to continue the abuse on you

6. When you are ready, learn to reverse babble.

7. Try the motto: Plan A your spouse but plan B the WS.

8. Create an immedate support group. They don't have to know all, just enough to support you and your DD.

9. Go read Love must be tough by Dr. James Dobson.

take care,

L.

It is indeed getting worse.

I also believe it is imperative that you DO NOT INCLUDE ANY DECLARATIONS FROM YOU ON HOW YOU WERE A "BAD HUSBAND" AND HOW YOUR ACTIONS MAY HAVE LED HER TO HER AFFAIR.

courts can use it against you.

example: my xwh....when we were separated, found out that I was (only for 3 mos) taking lexapro. He tried to say that I was unstable...what the F???I have never left mty home...I held down a great job...I was always a dedicated mom and good wife...but it was his little loophole to make himself look good...gosh...he found out his wife was suffering from depression and attempted to use it against me in the divorce...and here I was...a medical professional and president elect of my state medical society...doesn't sound like somebody who'd get depressed huh?

and here's the kicker...depression was brought on by HIS ACTIONS AND DISREGARD FOR HIS WIFE AND FAMILY.

I had to get specialists to agree with my side...and they did...got several to say I was sane as the day was long and that my wxh was the reason for any depression and that mine was transient...aka gone after wh would be gone from my life.

and voila! the depression left when I realized that I did not have to carry his burdens any more...plan a was NOT good for me...I felt I had to keep up "reinventing" and making the old me even better day by day...all the while not love busting and he was getting worse and worse...

does that sound familiar?

I should have gone to b sooner..but a few years back, people were more leaning towards here a longer plan a.

anyway, the ws will try to use any declaration from a bs and use it against them...because they know they will look horrid in a divorce proceeding or a custody hearing ok?

I have since had same people (six months after separation but before d was final) (the docs) say that I was completely NOT depressed anymore and that they were glad I was on my own and healing nicely away from that man who in their opinions from my testimony was A NARCISSIST AND POSSIBLY A SOCIOPATH.

yea, that went into my legal file...that my xh was unable or unwilling to ever sit down in front of a ny of my counselors or therapists I had lined up...why? he was scared they'd get his number.

NEVER NEVER NEVER say you should have been a better H.

I'd say that your W should have been a better W and learned how to keep her skirt down and her pants up.

Your W is seriously damaging your daughter. I am sick to death of reading this trauma to the child. Please get her help immediately and keep this horrible woman away from her right now. Your W has turned into a WS.

she could recover, but your daughter should remain the primary focus right now.

listen to orchid. she's right.

but right now you've got a wayward on your hands. plan b the wayward..you have done a good a on what is left of your wife.

I would call police asap about the om doing the drive by's...it seems that he is stalking your family. just my .02

I feel he is stalking.

and your ww is eating the cake right up ok?

she's fogged out and crazy. wow...since when did 11k make somebody have these grandiose delusions? my god...you'd think she won lotto south!

she is emotionally dangerous to all who come in her path right now. especially your daughter. your daughter SHOULD BE FIRST NOW..AND BE PROTECTED.

I am concerned about this stalking om. He is also being the victim of her yo yo behavior and it's starting to make him imho unstable. now this guy is sick and tired and emotionally worn out and about to be pushed over edge too by your ww. she's playing and burning the candle from BOTH ends ok?

and she will get burned ...it is to happen.

you can't save her. you can pray she wakes up and wants to save herself though.

now this guy is violating your space and your family's feeling of safety. I would call police and say this man is constantly driving by your home, and you're afraid for yourself, and your daughter.


please help, your advice is good...but htis man's wife needs to hit bottom.

how much worse can she get? she's pretty darn awful right now and damaging in terms of abuse emotionally to both the daughter and the bs.

she is very emotionally abusive right now...and there's this secondary om who's doing drive by's...who knows if this wacko om will snap? who knows who will snap first?

I just want our friend and his daughter protected...and want dazed to protect his daughter above all right now.

No more enablement of the ws.

It cannot happen anymore.

It is disturbing to me and I cannot say or do anymore.

The prodigal son WAS ALLOWED BY THE FATHER to crash...and the son did it away from his home. all the while the father went on with his life and prayed for his son...son away, living it up, living large, spending all his inheritance...and then eating with pigs. but it had to happen...or else the prodigal would have NOT returned with a changed heart.

it is MORE damaging to SEE THE WS INCH DAILY CLOSER AND CLOSER TO ROCK BOTTOM...AND IN THE MEANTIME DISHING OUT EMOTIONAL ABUSE...than to implement plan B and go dark.

that is the truth period.

ORCHID- Last week I started researching for a good IC for Daughter and me. I called a friend of mine that is a pastor here in town and he gave me some good Christian refs. I have spoke with another IC here in town and was not impressed at all. Finding a good IC is like shopping for anything else I guess.
PEACHY- Thanks for your friendship. I need all I can get. I'm pretty alone with all this. I have never been a so called open person. That is one of my WW complants about me. I have many friends but no close friends. She was my only intimate friend I have ever had. Sharing of anything personal has always been hard for me. You and others on here have really helped give me support. I know I have frustrated many of you by being a dam good baker of cake. I have always been a person that looks ahead with a positive outlook. Almost to positive to the point I live in denile of the bad stuff that is right in front of me. I have choosen to focus so much on what can be and what is good that the bad or problems go unaddresed. That sums up my marriage. The bad and problems finally consummed my marriage. I simply avoided conflict in our marriage so many problems were aloud to fester and never really heal.

Yes, I felt bad that WW hurt D12's feelings. The one time I'm out of the room and wife pulls this. The thing is WW was really pretty good this past week with D12. As I said earlier we actually felt almost normal together a couple evenings last week. So D12 was opening herself back up to WW when she pulled this again. I guess I should have removed myself and D12 from the house when I got the feel that WW was unstable again.
I had more to write earlier but WW came back home and was headed write for my office. I had to quickly shut down. I almost feel guilty for hiding this from her. I must be off my rock.
So, she came home to blast me some more.
Another piece to the puzzle comith.
That low life sorry SOB is reverse plan B on WW. Can you _ucking believe it. She told me that OM told her he don't want to see her any more because this is all too crazy for him. Also, he is so scared of me that he can't sleep. He can't open his front door with out looking out the windows and is expecting me to jump him at any momemt. So, she says are you happy. Now I'm going to end up all alone. I cheated on you and we will never be the same. I take all responsiblity for ruining us. Now all your guilt tripping on me has made me crazy in my head. OM thinks I'm nuts and you are going to kill him.
She told me I should just take this like a man and move on with out her. I should just realize she is a ****** and no good to no one. Trash that I should have never married. She then begged me to let her go. If she got papers Monday would I please sign them. I could have everything other than her cloths. I told her I knew he was pressuring you. He _hits all over his wife, trades her in for you. She stops me and says he they were already over. He had a plan when we was going to leave her. I said thank you. You are right he had a plan to trade in his wife for you from day one. You shared our personal problems with him. You gave him the signs you were ripe for the taking while giving him the play book to your heart. He did have a plan and has followed it to a _ucking T. Now he has figured out how to pressure you into getting on with leaving me. Just think about it. The stalking in May and June when he was parked in front of our house. Then him telling police I vandalized his truck to get me in trouble and you mad at me. Then he tells you I'm following him around town and stalking him every night and he is scared of me. All lies and manipulation. If he is scared. He should have never picked a married woman to make his prize.
She sat with her head down for a few minutes. Then called me pathetic for being all emotional now. How could I sat there with tears in my eyes now. Where was this love when she wanted it. For 15 years she begged me for it and now I have it to give. After she cheated and everything is ruined. Asked how could I do this to her. I need to give it up because she will never be mine ever again. Then she walked off.
I cleaned my self up and went to go pick up daughter and her friends. We spent the after noon playing around at the mall. I got them some movies and took them all over to her friends house. This way if WW shows up tonight. D12 won't be in the line of fire again.

I will edit the PBL to legally look better.
What is the best time to give her and OM there letters?

LAST THING: While drive back from dropping off the kids, I seen WW driving right by OM's street. Do I just set here and if she comes home or not, do nothing? What do I do when she comes home in the morning? Knowing that OM is playing hard to get, I'm sure that WW will most likely be looking for OM like some sort of Prize patrol with herself as the prize. (makes me sick).

Now, why do you stay in this enviroment but more importantly why do you allow your daughter to stay in this enviroment?? I can only imagine the mental impact this will have on your daughter when she gets older. At some point you have to weigh the benefits versus the cost of this psuedo relationship you have with your wife. Hopefully before too much damage is done to your daughter.

Aside from getting a good IC for you and your D, I highly recommend that you get ahold of a good attorney that can make you aware of what your legal rights are and how best to use them to protect you and your D from your WW and her OM. Last but certainly not least, I highly advice you setup an appointment with Steve or Jennifer Harley to get his/her professional opinion regarding your situation. The more knowledgeable you are on all fronts, the better you will be in making wise decisions for or against the continuation of your marriage.

TMCM

what did i tell ya? that om was getting crazy from the craziness of your ww. she is driving him over the edge, hence my worries of safety of you and dd.

think about it...you are now literally trying to move ww around so she doesn't interact with your dd b/c ww is so toxic?

Your ww my friend...and I do pray for you and the family all the time...is a master manipulator.

On one hand, she is saying she wants permission to be with om and move on with l ife...and then she self depricates herself so her words will make you feel the guilt and shame...and not blame her.

that is her modus operandii. get it down and you see her babble to you. that is how she fog babbles to you.

here is an example I am making up:
ww: OM is scared silly of you. I can't blame him. who would want me when I am this messed up?
you: I want you. Your family wants you.
ww:you should just understand what you did that made me want to be this way...I have been so unhappy for so long now...it is over between us. can't we just get thru this and make it easy?
you: but we can get thru this together
ww: I am nothing but a (lut. You will be so happy when I am gone. Let's just get this over. You deserve somebody much more well...honorable than me.

Now you are sitting there feeling sorry for a ww who truly feels she is dirt?

Or does she really?

I think it is her way of manipulating everybody. She probably does same thing to om.

Truth here is she wants om. She wants the 11k of riches so they can hatch their grandiose little stupid plot together. He cheated on his w. He got the divorce and the giant settlement (rotflmao) of 11k. She is still trying to figure out how she can get with om, live as she wants, and get you to pay for her (YEA YOU MY FRIEND) and get her daughter's custody also.

that's why she has the brakes on for maybe 10 minutes every two or three days. that is all.

she's got to hit the bottom. you can't keep her doing this. it is emotional abuse my friend. you are a victim of her emotional abuse...biggest victim is the dd.

please get both of you into counseling.

I fear your ww is more than devious and toxic. I am worried her manipulations to the om could make hm dangerous to you or your family.

Normal people do normal things. normal people when placed in horrific situations like this one do NOT do normal things nor do they REACT NORMALLY either. One of you, either you or om is going to crack.

You OWE IT TO YOUR DD TO NOT BE THE ONE TO CRACK...and in saying so, you must establish a safe and secure home for your child.

I remember when my xh came to that point. I felt in my heart he was going to do something to hurt me...ever since I found out he had on the side (he did this a few years back) a limo service...and was caught out in buckhead at dinner with some girls...and two men who appeared to be his bodygaurds (really his limo drivers) but standing around him at the steakhouse like he was somebody famous or something. My best friend's husband spied them and called me right away. He was fearful my xh would do something to me b/c I had too much dirt on him. I remember for 2 days...while my son was away visiting my xh, that he was gonna hurt me. I slept with a knife under my pillow and had the police do drive by's...also alerted all my neighbors that thigns were taking a turn for the worse.

and within 3 days it happened...my xh broke into my home around the time I would usually get home from work...I had just gotten ds back from him day before...my neighbor who had been alerted saw him doing it and called the police. Week before this, my xh picked up my son from school on MY VISITATION time and said that I was acting cruel to him and that he would not let me have my son back until I came to my senses...I was in plan B and filing for D ok? I had attorneys called within the hour...and an emergency hearing set for the next day ...son was at my home next day.

See how desperate they get? My xh even took my son and imho...tried to force me to see his way of thinking or else he'd keep me from my son...he didn't get very far. And he spent a night in the slammer with the regular joes of the prison system...he deserved much much more imho.

see? this is how it happens.

they hit this point where imho...

THIS IS ONE OF MY ADULTERY THEORIES AND I STICK TO THIS...

WHERE REALITY AND FANTASY HAVE A HEAD ON COLLISION...

It is where the ws realizes that he cannot live the double life anymore. Something must give. And their anger and frustration at NOT being able to cakeeat anymore comes sizzling to the surface and something shocking will be the result.

It could be a nasty breakup with the op if the ws thinks there is more value in going home...or it could be that the ws must now apply more pressure in getting their way to make their dream of fantasy become the reality...financial pressure on bs, emotional pressure on bs, or abuse and violence on bs.

This is a scary line when they walk it. And you must be prepared. I would alert neighbors, have police do drive by's...and alert dd's school that there is a man who is having an active affair with your ww...that you may be scared he and ww might try to get your daughter at school or something. the ws can get pretty scary and desperate.

I am saying to stay smart. Think of her as a crazed crack addict who is now making your home unsafe because of her unsavory contacts (om)...who is also in theory her supplier of the crack and a fellow addict b/c he's a ws.

It is time to cease giving her money so she can get more crack. Let her and the fortune of a measley 11k supply her...for maybe 3 months at best.

Meanwhile, I'd get a bulldog attorney by tomorrow morning. I'd have separation papers served on her and locks changed and police and neighbors notified..as well as school...I'd say in papers that BECAUSE YOUR WW IS MENTALLY UNSTABLE RIGHT NOW and that because of her moral shortcomings and choice of inappropriate lifestyle, that you seek nothing short of full custody. Not divorce, just separation.

I'd pack her bags, and have them on front door with copy of plan B letter. Then no contact whatsoever when she gets served or what else. You just have to get some peace around your home! You have to protect yourself, your assets, but above all else your daughter and your sanity.

If what happens is as I believe will happen, ww will be back. I'd also contact company and ask if om works there..if so, let them know that ww is applying for a job there and that she is actively having an illicit affair iwth om...their employee.

Time for hardball...tough but loving hardball.

She will crash. I predict within 3 months if not by christmas.

This time is now about your daughter and yourself...loving each other...and being strong and being a good little family.

I watched movie "Lilo and Stitch" with my son. I actually teared up at one point. Point where stitch hands lilo a photo of her family (parents died in car wreck and it's just she and her older sister...like a single mom)..He says "ohana" and then they say that I have a family...broken...but still good.

That's how I felt...my family was broken indeed..but very much still good.

It will be ok. Your ww is needing this to happen. this could be her only hope for healing ever. You cannot deny her this if you truly love her.

read prodigal son. over and over.

when I gave up on my xh even after the divorce was final a few days in january of 04, I remember a quiet voice in my heart...know it was from my creator. When I filed for D, I said that I gave up on my xh but that God, you'd never give up on him...and that moment, I gave my wh over to God. I remember hearing in my heart that "I am not done working with him yet." I heard same voice a few months ago when former other woman, now wife of my xh, called me to say that "I found your gold wedding band. would you like it? It was in a plastic baggie along with a letter." I told her it was nothing for her to see...that she was one of the reasons he had my gold band...and that letter was for my then H and not for her eyes. She said she had found it when snooping for "adultery stuff" on my xh. She said my xh had hidden it away...and obviously did NOT want her to see or find it. I said that "well good. I am glad darth does feel some conviction." She got nervous. She said that she also had found my gorgeous wedding portrait. I again said I gave it to darth and not to her. I am fearing what my family and friends...and even darth said...will come true. That he will divorce her, that will be his crash, finally the truth about his behaviors of last five years will come to complete light, and he will try to find me. But I don't think I can ever return to him ever. But even if I stay away for good, I know that God is NOT done with him yet and maybe just maybe he will find his creator and find the real love he should have been seeking all along.

Just do what is needed for your family to be good today. And be wise. Make wise decisions. And pray. Let God show your WW her ways and how she can return. My xh never really hit bottom...and this is why what has happened in my life and in his life has happened. You can have a different history if you do all you can do to NOT enable a ws.

Dazed,

I have never posted to you before but I have been keeping up with your sitch.

I feel so bad for you and I understand the pain you feel.

After reading Peachy's last post to you I just had to comment.

I believe Peachy is right and you have to be careful for you and DD. Please follow up with a lawyer and get your ducks in a row.

Your WW needs to crash justlike my WH needs to crash. IMHO I would follow the advice you have been given and go to planb.

It will save your love and give you some peace. I will not deny that at times you will hear and see things that will upset you but all in all its a good place to be...

Peachy knows of what she speaks. Take heed and do what you have to .... Be safe and keep DD safe...

I am praying for you and your family....

Take Care,

Hurting

Dazed,
How are you doing.... I know it's tough... hang in there... don't do anything that goes against what YOUR heart tells you to do.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There is only one truth.... not matter what you WS does... DO NOT REACT.... think.... but DO NOT REACT...

ALL WSs act this way... she's no different.... she's not the exception..... she is the NORM.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And I defer to HARLEY'S advice....not mine.... not clouded buy MY pain...... finish your Plan "A" you've come this far.... are you OK? Are you strong enough to finish?

If she leaves;.... she leaves......but even of you feel like packing her bags and throwing her out... it doesn't seem like a very kind thing to do.... WWJD??

No matter what your WS is doing to you , you shouldn't make her control you.... make you do something against WHO YOU ARE.....

I look at it this way.... if you do throw her out.. then she has an excuse that she could sell to EVERYONE.... even your DD..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

She could say she would have NEVER left... and she WAS trying to work on her marriage...and you threw her out.....so then her "friend" ( her OM) was kind enough to RESCUE her and give her a place to live.,..


Hey.... what else could she do?????? EVEN after all the pain you caused her for so many years.... YOU threw HER out... she didn't leave.... YOU THREW her out....

Doesn't sound like someone that loves her to me..... Throw her out into the arms of her OM??? Let HIM be a hero to WS AND everyone else... (including the D court (if it gets that far??) and your DD? Who would be the victim THEN???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think even HARLEY speaks against throwing the spouse out... it's NOT PART OF PLAN "B" that's all I know.

IF SHE LEAVES.....AND YOU FIND YOUR LOVE FOR HER IN JEOPARDY .....THEN PLAN "B"...... That's HARLEY.... not me....


Now.... if YOU THINK what others say may be possible... only YOU really know your W (not to be confused with your WS) If you think she is CAPABLE of PHYSICALLY hurting you... (I mean you are the MAN 'is she stronger than you or does she have a gun??) and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't do any harm to your DD PHYSICALLY.

What's the worst case then.... she leaves... that's what we think will probably happen....

You're prepared for her to leave.... now... what do YOU want her to remember? That you loved her IN SPITE of what she did.....and maybe it is possibile to work things out with you because she remembers that you ....

NEVER......GAVE......UP........ON......HER.......OR.....YOUR........MARRIAGE............


Or... YOU PACK HER CLOTHES AND PUT THEM ON THE PORCH.... (Hopefully in the rain to add to the drama... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) call the police.... alert neighbors and slander her (and embarrass your self and DD in the process) call the National Guard and have them deploy a DS protection unit to your house to protect you from air attack...and out and out treat her like a criminal....?????


NOW.....DOES........THIS.........SOUND........LIKE........ A.........THING.......... YOU............WOULD...........EVER EVER EVER ......SEE............AS.........A.......LOVING........ACT........AND..........THE ........ACTIONS........OF........SOMEONE........THAT........YOU........WOULD........FEEL.......GRATEFUL TO.........AND...........SAFE............WITH............WHEN....... THE ........AFFAIR.....ENDS???? And you KNOW it will end.,.....it WILL end.....


Dazed......what if she ISN'T planning on leaving...?????? THAT IS POSSIBILE RIGHT?????.....I MEAN NONE OF US IS GOD....WE DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD......HAS PLANNED.....HE MAY CHANGE HER HEART........BEFORE........SHE LEAVES.....



Peach... come on... " Think of her as a crazed crack addict who is now making your home unsafe " <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />She's just a WS.... they are ALL unstable.....but more dangerous to themselves.......

I'm trying to play nice with you... but.. really.....isn't that a little over the edge....this guy is confused......can you please stick to Marriage Buliders.... principals......I doubt HARLEY would advise he treat ANYONE that way... let alone someone he's supposed to love.......
"Time for hardball...tough but loving hardball"
I really can't find any of your advice in HARLEY's PLAN "A" or PLAN "B" and find it hard to find ANYTHING WHATSOEVER loving in your plan....... I refer to my "STOVE" reference before.... if she wants to put her hand on the stove and get burned..... try and stop her.... if she does....she made the mistake and you can help her heal........but DO NOT SHOVE HER HAND INTO THE FIRE AS A WAY TO SHOW LOVE?????? IN LEARNING MISTAKES..... that......is abuse.....


Dazed......what if she ISN'T planning on leaving...??????


DO NOT REACT..... STAY CALM AND STRONG AND CONSISTANT.......TEACH YOUR DD LOVE NOT HATE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and ANGER <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and....REVENGE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />..........even if your WS shoots you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (LOL!!) Your DD will remember you always acted with LOVE , KINDNESS and FORGIVENESS...........even when her Mother was unloveable....even when she made mistakes.......And I believe nt matter. WHAT happens.... you will feel better about yourself too......WWJD??

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS.... FRANK

We're still praying for you.....

frank..I don't play and I could care less if you "play nice with me" or not. I am hoping this guy can get his ww to stop doing what she is doing...which is horrible emotional abuse. It is "over the edge" to think this family is NOT suffering horrible emotional abuse at the hand of his ww. His dd is in serious need of counseling right now as the abuse from the ww continues. Don't post things to me like "I am playing nice with you" or "over the edge"...what is over the edge is a crazed om doing drive by's in front of dazed's family home. That is just outta control.

I am posting to dazed...he will decide what he wants to do. Again, what he is doing now is NOT working...he can change or he can accept more of the same.

I do not and will not condone anybody leaving their marriage without giving it 100 percent...but I am also against families being abused by a ws.

Keep ME out of this...this is about dazed. You have your ideas...and I have mine. I didn't say that I think your ideas are let's say...hmmm....door-mat-ish? I did not expand on why I don't think YOUR ideas will work...why? Because this is not about any of us except for helping this guy and his family. enablement of a very abusive ws is not the way to go. only reinforces further bad behavior from them.

Let's keep the focus on dazed...not on ourselves ok?

Nobody wants hate anger or revenge...what is needed is a safe and loving home environment.

I am 100 percent MB.

I also love the work of James Dobson and his Love Must Be Tough approach which is 100 percent faith based and based also on psych, experience with affairs, and behavioral based. He is very much in line with MB...but there does come a time when you need to defer to the pro's.

I say call the Harleys now! do not wait. And do NOT hold back...let them know everything! See if you do need to change your approach or not. My problem I see here is she is still doing more...and I am worried that tomorrow the om will enable her further by giving her $$$ to start the divorce...and that she's gonna leave anyway.

Other main problem is the emotional abuse...which is something so bad...it is almost worse than infidelity imho..because it takes so much time to rebuild that which was taken away, chipped at little by little over time.

Just be smart, stay safe, GET HELP ASAP FROM HARLEYS!!!!CALL THE PHONE NUMBER AND GET EMERGENCY APPOINTMENT TOMORROW!!!

Also alert neighbors, call police so they can too do drive by's, and call dd's school to make them aware of the sitch...in case ww becomes more unstable.

Most people do not believe they can get this way...and they can in a moment's notice. Never close a door to a ws...but let them know that they have to agree to MB principles of NC and restoration of marriage...before letting them back in door. If somebody knows that you love them but do not love their actions, and the simple way to return is to change their actions...then what is bad about that? Nothing!

Sometimes it takes letting somebody go...
again, reread prodigal son. Father loved his son soooo much...son left, took all his inheritance, and lived it up...while gone, the Father prayed for his return, that son remained safe..and God did the rest. He allowed the son to hit rock bottom...and the Father welcomed his repentant son back with open arms...

Your WW knows you would welcome her back with open arms...if she CHANGED COURSE NOW...Give her the direction...the letter can be her light back home! It can show exactly the path she must take. It can be written quite lovingly...very lovingly. And with strong faith and assurance to her should she forego this immoral lifestyle, choose to show love to her family members, that you would be MORE than willing to have her home. That you pray for her safety and a quick return. That's what the prodigal's father did.

There is a time for plan A...and for Plan B. I say defer to the Harley's right now. But tell them all of what you've posted here...read your posts to them.

In the end, I am saying that you should be wise and get advice from the best. But I do know how WS think...I do...and I know what has worked..and what has not..with family and friends and in my own life. I also know that had my xh not married ow, he would probably have already been back now. But sin begats sin...and now it is what it is. Please just do all you can to save your family...in the end, you can only control yourself and YOUR actions and dd...and keep your home loving and safe. You cannot control a spouse.

OK Peachy,
Like I said we're on the same team with the same goals...

[color:"red"] "I didn't say that I think your ideas are let's say...hmmm....door-mat-ish?" [/color]

Believe me I would think the same IF... HE HAD BEEN A PLAN "A" FOR MORE THAN 45 DAYS..he hasn't even come close to finishing... I HOPE and PRAY she stays long enough for him to because... as we both know as well as tooooo MANY here know... once they move it's MUCH harder....



[color:"red"]"I am hoping this guy can get his ww to stop doing what she is doing"

"in the end, you can only control yourself and YOUR actions and dd...and keep your home loving and safe. You cannot control a spouse."

[/color] Wouldn't you be confused here??

and.... [color:"blue"] Sometimes it takes letting somebody go...
again, [/color]

Right.... letting go... is letting someone GO... not packing their bags and leaving them on a porch with a letter....cold..

[color:"red"] reread prodigal son. Father loved his son soooo much...son left, took all his inheritance, and lived it up...while gone, the Father prayed for his return, that son remained safe..and God did the rest. He allowed the son to hit rock bottom...and the Father welcomed his repentant son back with open arms... [/color]

Right.... the son LEFT... his Father didn't KICK HIM TO THE CURB.... maybe the story would have had a different ending if the Father HAD packed his bags etc...

[color:"red"] GET HELP ASAP FROM HARLEYS!!!!CALL THE PHONE NUMBER AND GET EMERGENCY APPOINTMENT TOMORROW!!!
[/color]

YES YES YES I!! DO THAT DAZED....THEY ARE THE EXPERTS....

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS... FRANK

Dazed...

I really think you should call the Harleys!

It is sad what is happening to you and your family but after all I have read there is one thing that strikes me as interesting.....your WW is asking YOU to let her go...she is not leaving on her own...this IMHO is a good sign....it would be interesting to see what the Harleys think of this....It seems to me that she wants you to eliviate her guilt...

It really appears as if she feels bad about what she did, does not believe you can ever forgive her...this is understandable because most of us before an A occurs say 'I would be out of there, I could never forgive', but the reality is that YOU can forgive her and you want to.....however, since the mentality before an A is, no I cannot imagine living with a person that would do that, your WW is thinking along those lines, she cannot understand that you are capable of forgiveness and that she can be forgiven....

This is why I think she wants you to kick her out, do her the favor...she does not want you to show her love....then when you don't kick her out and you show her you care...she goes after you, "how could you do this etc, why could you not care like this before"...she is frastrated...yes she wishes you had shown this care before then she would not have had the A...she is confused and I personally think she hates what she has done but does not know how to get out of it....I really see her actions as a sign of total confusion and I think it would be a good time to continue to PLan A WITH the Harleys say so.....

Have you thought of talking to them?

My position is, don't kick her out, but that is me....I know she is hurting your DD....so you need to weigh that...but if you can Plan A for just a little more, then when you Plan B your WW will remember...you really want a solid good plan A before going to plan B....

So, again, why not talk to the Harleys?????

Take care of yourself and your DD... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

Daisy,

[color:"red"] It really appears as if she feels bad about what she did, does not believe you can ever forgive her...this is understandable because most of us before an A occurs say 'I would be out of there, I could never forgive', but the reality is that YOU can forgive her and you want t! o.....however, since the mentality before an A is, no I cannot imagine living with a person that would do that, your WW is thinking along those lines, she cannot understand that you are capable of forgiveness and that she can be forgiven....
[/color]


RIGHT!! THAT'S WHY IT TAKES A LOOOONNNGGGG PLAN "A" because they (nor would we) DON'T "TRUST" THAT IT'S REAL POSSIBLE..... THAT IT'S NOT A TRICK....

VERY WELL SAID!! BRILLIANT!!

I agree with your ENITRE POST.,... BRILLIANT...

there is HUUUUUGE DIFFERENCE between kicking one's spouse to the curb a la waywards do...and when a bs does it to save their marriage using plan B or love must be tough principles...

There is something horrible about having a WS who is committing on a daily basis horrible emotional abuse to a child...adults don't need it...but a child really doesn't!

It is getting really sad here...

I do not condone any WS in a home where there is severe emotional or physical abuse.

Your approach so far is not working..she is doing same thing over and over...nothing has changed. Consult Harleys...tell them of what she's also doing to daughter. ask the pro's...but be wise and think of your dd now! She truly needs your love and protection.

BTW...thereis NOTHING wrong about plan B and asking a WS who is completely unrepentant and abusive to leave.

A plan B letter worded lovingly...would easily TELL A WS THAT YOU LOVE THEM...YOU WANT THEM BACK...AND THAT IF THEY COMPLY with NC and choose path of love that they'd come back and be able to with the door wide open and arms outstretched.

Dazed....
Here is what you wrote in your very first post:

Your D-day was very recent and frankly without the A blinding your WW, she still would very seriously doubt that you have changed. I am not saying it to be harsh, but to be realistic....now together with the A, your WW does not believe that those changes are permanent, that your M stands a chance....the WS never do (or the spouses that just leave - like mine)....your WW needs to see the changes you make for a while to believe them to be long term and to have any hope of saving the M....that is why I really feel that you should Plan A....

I am working on myself, but 6 months later, I still do some things that I know irritate my H....I try and try but changing everything in no time is impossible...that is why she needs to see it for some time...

Honestly speaking I really don't think it is a good idea to go to Plan B in the hopes that she gets it...because she may just remember that you were not there for her that you 2 just don't work...

If you really want her out of your house because of the pain her presence causes your DD, then why not tell her you love her, you want to work on your M, you are not going to give up on her, you will continue to work on the M, you want her to end the A and come back to the M, BUT you want to protect your DD and hence arrangements must be made to get her an appartment or something like that.....I would run it by the Harleys first though...to see what they suggest, they may even have some other solutions....maybe she could go live with a family member etc......I am not for just telling her to leave...you don't want her to go to the OM and somehow justify to herself that YOU drove her to HIM! If she wanted to live with him, she could have done so already! As you know there are many BS here whose WS are living with the OP...they can do that....so since she has not done it..why force her hand???

I seriously don't see why you cannot try some other arrangemnts first, before Plan B....I see Plan B as the last resort!



PH,
Thanks...I am not fishing for compliments here, but I have been really really down today......I hope my 2 cents here help someone.....


Daisy

I admit, I am not very conversant on all this Plan A and B stuff. But after reading the ongoing storyline of this situation, I have to ask, when is enough, enough? How much mental and emotional abuse can one human take before they finally see though this "fog" and realize maybe its just not worth saving?

Daisy,

I think you're advice is great... you have obviously read what Plan "B" is meant to do... as you said... NOT a wake-up call....THE SECOND TO LAST RESORT....the last being divorce.......when you NEVER EVER want your spouse in your life again...EVER... thanks you are helping for sure....

Another thing I just don't get... WHERE IS THE SEVERE EMOTIONAL ABUSE??? A WS telling the BS that she wants out of the marriage??? That she wants a life with OM??
This is severe MENTAL ABUSE???? This is something to tell the neighbors?? Jeez.... how will DD or BS ever be able to walk down the street.. again???

THIS......IS.......WHAT......THEY (WSs)........SAY........

WE.......ARE.......TRAINED.....BY......HARLEY......TO...
EXPECT......THIS........IT'S........NORMAL.....FOG....AND.....ISN'T....REAL........

Does it hurt? LIKE H**LL......But.....should a BS take it to heart really....NO.....So if THEY ALL SAY IT... HOW CAN IT BE REAL????

I remember when my W told me "she loved me but wasn't IN LOVE with me...." I FLIPPED!! Then I came here and thank GOD there was a thread about what the WS says... and almost EVERYONE (BSs) said they had heard it too!! I thought I was the only one here that heard it and I had a SPECIAL case....a HOPELESS case..... but I realized HOW COULD THAT BE?? If they ALL SAY IT...


This isn't fun but this isn't SEVERE ABUSE WHEN YOU EXPECT IT.... and in DAZED case... I don't remember him EVER saying that his WS was AT ALL verbally abusive to their DD... sure... sometimes she hears them fight and the terrible things her mother says to her father... THAT ISN'T GOOD...BUT.... WHAT CHILD DOESN'T HEAR THIS ONCE IN A WHILE.

Should EVERYONE that fights in front of a child be PACKED AND SHIPPED..????

I think it would be SEVERE MENTAL ABUSE to see MY MOTHER'S CLOTHES AND PERSONAL BELONGINGS PUT IN TRASH BAGS ON THE PORCH WHILE MY FATHER KICKED HER OUT OF OUR HOME....NOW THAT'S ABUSE... IT'S CRUEL AND HEARTLESS....

AND TWO WRONGS WILL NEVER EVER MAKE A RIGHT.....

Nothings changing....??? How do WE KNOW.... what his WS is thinking????

PLAN "A" works SLOWLY........ I see her cracking......she's mad.....that's good.... they are back in conflict......that's good..... she's confused.... that's good..... IF IT WASN'T WORKING SHE WOULD BE VERY QUIET AND MAKE NO WAVES SO SHE COULD ESCAPE WITHOUT CONFLICT......

Will OM pull back.... YES..... will she WAFFLE BACK AND FORTH.... OH YEAH.....SURE WILL.... THAT...... IS..... WHAT.... THEY......DO.....

DAZED IS STRONG..... HIS LOVE for his W is SAFE (at the moment) I really think his Plan "A" is chipping away little by little... so as long as DAZED is still able... he should continue his Plan "A"........

And as for "Love must be Tough" mixed with a little Plan "B" and add a dash of DR. PHIL and SHAKE IT 180 TIMES..... that's silly....... like going on FOUR DIETS AT THE SAME TIME.... PICK ONE AND STICK WITH IT... THEN..... IF IT'S (for sure) NOT WORKING AFTER REALLY FOLLOWING IT TO THE TEE..... THEN CHANGE....

HARLEY SAYS A 6 MONTH PLAN "A"..... THAT.....IS......THE ......DIET..........6 MONTHS........(if you can without losing all your love for the WS) but as far as I understand.... you can continue a PLAN "A" as long as you want..... BUT AT LEAST 6 MONTHS....that's what I read....


DAZED.... WHERE ARE YOU????? Are you reading all this...???? Are you OK???

About as cruel and heartless as knowing my mother is willingly sleeping and shacking up with OM?

[quote
About as cruel and heartless as knowing my mother is willingly sleeping and shacking up with OM? [/quote]

She shouldn't be told this.... IF she finds out... then DAZED will have to explain.... and comfort her.... but I still think THROWING MY MOTHER OUT IN THE STREET.... would NEVER be acceptable to me... SHE'S MY MOTHER!!!!! I'm SURE I would find a way to EXPECT my FATHER.... would be more forgiving of her MISTAKES..... and wonder what I COULD DO to get TOSSED......
Love is KIND....Love never ANGERS... etc....

Peachy-My heart goes out to you for all your help and the pain that you have experienced in your life. YOU are a true survior! I want you to know that I truely think about everything you tell me.
I agree that OM is starting to unravel. I think he is manipulating my WW. Yes, I agree she is playing both sides as well. The thing is I know this woman. We have spent half our life together. He only thinks he knows her by her actions over the past several months.
Do I think he will harm me? He is a chicken _hit. He will never face to face confront me. I think he may crack and loose it when WW leaves him. He is really really pushing on WW.
FRANK & Daisy
Yes, I do agree with you on finishing Plan A. I know Peachy, there is a limit and i need to know when to say when. This is hard and full of pain. I can take it. I'm not on the rev limiter yet. I will do a better job of protecting my daughter and us working as a team. I will get her into IC ASAP.

WW confessed yesterday that OM is really pushing her to divorce me. Just as I thought.

Yesterday update-
I got up early and stared in on cleaning up the house. Badly needed I might add. Took down all the Holloween decorations and what not. Made beds, laundry, cleaned out the entry way, carpets, pretty much everything. While at it I cleaned out the entry way bench. In side the drawer I found the ring box to the aniversary band that I gave WW in April. I through it on a pile of items for the trash. I also took down a display of boyds bears that was in the entry. These were all items I gave the WW as gifts over the last several years. Anniversary, birthday, christmas. Little things that said together for ever, true love, best friends, family, you get the pic. WW came out of the bath room and seen I had all that stuff boxed. She stood for a minute and started to cry. She slowly walked towards the bath room and seen the ring box. She picked it up and held it. Opened it up and played with it for a few minutes. Looked at me and said I guess you probably feel better about taking that stuff down huh. I said no, I don't but it all doesn't matter now. You don't value all this stuff so why should I keep it on display. Remember these presents I gave you? Look at this one. I shown her the two bears dressed in wedding cloths kissing. I gave you this when we renewed our vows for our tenth anniversary, and this one, together forever. I gave you that last year on our anniversary. What about the ring box in your hand. Do you even know what came in it? Probably not, because you did not care then. It was an anniversary band that I gave you in April to show how much I love you. She ran upstairs cring. I let her go. She came down and followed me around for a while as I vacummed the floor. After a few minutes she ran back upstairs and I found her setting on the floor cring. I let her go.
A short time later she was in the bath room cleaning herself up. She looked at me very sad and full of pain. I went to her gave her a hug. Told her she looked like she could use this. After another bit of time she was in the bath room doing her hair. She says, you would never trust me again would you? You look through my car, my purse, you are always wondering where I'm going. You have followed me.
I said, yes WW I have just now done those things. That much is true. I said, trust in you I always had and want to give you now. I'm not a game player or someone that feels good about worring and being suspecious. I hate that. If you were open and honest with me and just took a step to help me trust you I would be happy with that. Earn your trust back is what I would like. She says what about you. How do I trust you. You have never had to earn my trust in you before. I said, I would earn it back like wise. I would be 100% open and show you all of my life to prove you can trust me. 10 minutes go by.
I said: I want to tell you something and to please just listen. I said, WW if you want to come home. All of you, body and mind. It's easy. Just come to me and say, BS I want to try to fix things with us. If you really really want to try 100%, I will not punish you, make selfish demands, pass judgement and make you feel bad. We will set down hand in hand and together jointly agree how we are going to do it with complete honesty. Yes, I know all the basic concepts, and I will suggest those when she lets me.
She gave me a look of understanding and held my hand for a second.

WW was out for a couple hours yesterday. When she returned she was all screwed up again. Obviously from OM. She asked we could set and talk. She was a mess again. As she held on to me she said, it feels so natural to touch you. The way we fit feels right. You are so familiar to me. It feels so wrong deep inside to think about being with anyone else. Maybe that is god telling me what to do like you said. I never ever in a million years wanted anyone else. Even at the worst of times I did and still think I'm suppose to be with you. I only wanted your attention BS. I still love you, but look at the mess I have got myself into. I did it all on my own. I never learn do I. How did I let it get this far. He was never suppose to be nothing more than a friend at work. Just like you said, I'm stupid and don't realize when boys want more than friendship. I really believe he was going to leave his wife, but I should have seen this. Now there is no way out with out hurting someone. I said, I wish I could just set you in my lap, hold you and tell you it's all going to be okay. You have to want me to do this with you. Me and you together the way we started out. The way will should have been. She says, god your so perfect now. You are the dad to DD that I always wanted. You are trying so hard now it makes me so sad. I should have found a way to talk to you before all this. Maybe I could have told me sister to tell you about anothe guy chasing me so you would have woke up sooner. Maybe I should have just told you so you would have woke up. This is so hard BS. He told me to not go back home and just stay with him now. He told her that if you go home he will just break you down and twist up your head. I asked do you think I do that. She says no I just feel guilty when I'm with you. I'm not controling you or making you do anything. I'm only loving you and showing you there is a way back home.
He is really pushing you huh. She said yes. I said does that feel good. "NO" Do you think that if you let him push you around now that it will get better later? "NO". She put her head down in my lap and cried.
I said, I knew he was pushing you. What would he do if you told him your not sure and want to wait a couple more weeks or want out, what would he do. Do you think it is fair that he with nothing to loose is forcing you to pick now? You, we have everything to loose don't we. She said your right. I had to break to go get D12 from her friends. We did not not talk about this stuff again until D12 was a sleep. Talking was a bit awkward because she was quite and I did not want to lead into conversation. I wanted follow her lead but she was not talking. So, I rubbed her head and tried small talk. She still would not say much. I did asked if she wanted a guy that told her what to do. She shook her head no. In my entire life she has always resented direction and force. Runs from pressure big time. So I tried to avoid telling her anything. Just some talk with questions to try to get her to open up. I asked if he scared her. "NO" Is he telling you what to do and giving you rules? No answer with her is yes. No answer. Is he instructing you to not talk to me, no answer, is her hurting you, "NO", Is he telling you to file on me, no answer. Is he telling you to sleep on the couch and not in a bed upstairs, no answer. Does he expect you to do everything he says, no answer. Do you like his attempt to control you and manage you like this, NO. I'm I making you uncomfortable, NO. I'm going to stop talking now because this is really awkward for me and you are not carring the conversation so I will just listen to you now. Nothing. I rubbed her hair for awhile, asked her to come up stairs. I went and got her PJ's and set them down with her and went to sleep.
Woke her up this morning by rubbing her hair. She says you are so nice to me, you shouldn't be. I said, I want to be.
I went by the store bought her a pop and a snack, gave them to her and told her she can call me if she needs to talk. Try and have a good day. bye.
Guess what...I get two blocks from my house there is basturd OM going the other way. I spotted him early enough to show him he is No.1 as i went by. He was pointed towards the court house to go finish sshiting on his wife and collect his lotto check. Probably hoped to catch WW on her way to work all at the same time. I went another block and stopped to see if WW would go on to work. She did. Don't think she saw me. I was a bit worried that he might stop her and pull something.
I'm debating on calling her today and offering to be there or give remind her to not let him push her.
However, I think that makes me look like the pusher. So I'm standing down, hoping that he will continue to unravel and help her see that the light. I know patients, and planning.
Thank all of you for praying for me and my family. I said a prayer for all of you last night too.
I know it not over and there is much strength needed.
I wish I could speak with each one of my friends on here. Peachy- Your a great woman and your helping me even if you think I'm doing the wrong thing. Believe me your helping me.
FRANK- Thank you for helping me calm down and find patients. Your comment about it took years of hurt for her to let her guard down to another, and it took the OM time to become her friend and make her fall for him. I wish it was all over now. WW is also becoming very tired. You know, I'm weary and at times out of gas. WW has been living this lie and stress for seven months. I feel she wants it all to end soon too. I think She is ready to find a direction to move in.
I hope that she see's OM's control tact as a big LB. I think she has argued with him about this. Because when I talked to her about this a few days ago when she first told me that crap that he can't see her until she files. I said do you really think that is not telling you what to do? I never in a million years controlled you like that. I gave you nothing but freedom. She says, he says if you had cared about me you whould have been more around to see what I was doing. I will not follow that up. Just wanted to give that as support to his control measures and he is even justifying them to her. Wow..
The last boyfriend my wife had was a control freak. He even tried to run over her with his car when they broke up. He reminds me a lot of OM. She used to tell me how greatful she was that i trusted her and let her live. I reminded her of that statement last night too.
Got go .. I'm sure that OM is now a free turd with out a wife he will step up his pressure 10 fold.
I think I just need to make me look safe and un-pressuring right now. Attractive to her so when OM pushes she has me to run to. What do you all think besides, Plan B go dark stuff.
dazed

Dazed....hope you are doing ok

I can only imagine how difficult this situation is to you....at the end you will do what is best for you and your DD. I understand what your DD is going through...I don't know how much she knows about the A or not...you want to shelter her from it all, it is understandable...yet I am sure as she hears you arguing she learns what is going on and it is hurting her...your reaction might be to protect her and get her out of that envirement by going to Plan B....that will probably be hard on her as well....

Perants argue, it sucks for the kids, but it happens....it is the way that you deal with it that will matter....

When I was about 12 my parents started arguing a lot...it just kept escalating over the years until when I was 15 my mother wanted to just leave my dad and us...during this time my relationship with both of them just deteriorated...I loved them, I wished they would just stop fighting all the time, I wished they would finally show some love to me...but nevertheless they continued on and on (they made us be part of their fights - asking us whose side we were on etc...really distarbing stuff)....as I said at some point my mother wanted to leave and my father did not want her to....told her to go talk to the kids...well my mother came into our room and talked to my brothers (one older, one younger) she was nice, told them she would miss them, then she came to me and told me she wished I was never born....

I tell you that was a blow...I was only 15..I loved her....how could she hurt me like that.....BUT I still did not want her to leave me....as much as she hurt me then, I was happy she stayed and did not leave us that night....

I have forgiven her....and my parents went on to have a better marriage (not right away...but some time later)....and I and my mother have a nice relationship now...we love each other and I know that those words were just some BS she said in frastration....

The one thing I really wish for more then anything is that they talked to me...asked me how I felt...this is what you can do....be there for your DD...ask her how she is doing...what she wants...what does she think is going on ....what does she know is going on...what does she hope and wish for...would she prefer not to live with her mother for a while.....I know you don't want to scare her, you want to protect her...but IF the situation is dire...and she has to deal with all the crup...she is old enough to be takled to......I really wish my parents at least once came and spoke to me and asked me how I felt....

Best to you...
Daisy

Will just say a prayer for you today...and for your DD. Please keep her away from this stuff ok?

You will do what you think is right.

Please however, ask the Harleys.

I am worried about turn of events today..your ww has done the "why would you love me" routine before and then run off.

I do want you to heal more than you can know. Just please think with head...and remember DO NOT take the blame...your WW keeps saying "I wouldn't have cheated if you had woken up sooner"...

What is that????

We all can improve ourselves...what MB principles are all about! But it is a personal choice to become unfaithful to your partner.

Do not take the blame. Please do not. Be as loving and as kind as you want..just remember, taking blame has ramifications if things go south...I know..my xh had taped conversations with me where he'd try to get me to say that I'd been a "bad wife" or how I should have done something better to meet his EN's during plan A....yes, some WS will do this and use it b/c they have no REAL weaponry in their grasp to justify their position.

I say to sit back, do not react...and think.

Daisy-Peach
Daughter knows very very much. Not all my fault.
WW was very very careless with OM in front of daughter.
WW introduced them early on. Told Daughter that he was a friend from work. They did many things together. Swimming, shopping, dinner date, and movies. Because of the 400 text messages, and 300 phone calls a month from March to September, Daughter was exposed to her cross chat with him. Daughter 12 figured it out on her own before I did. Daughter 12 told me that she told mom that she don't like that guy no more and she don't want him around. She said, dad he and mommy never did anything you know, but he was too nice to her. Like you and mom used to be. She told me that OM surprised them at Wal-mart one day. WW was totally ignoring Daughter and when he started touching mommy arm I hit him with a bottle of fabric softener. This all made me sick to here. However, I know I have yelled at WW about OM at times when Daughter has heard.
Daughter and WW were as close as mother and daughter could ever get. Because of my absentce they did everything together. That is were WW went wrong by exposing OM to her.
Daughter asked me why momming don't like her any more. Ever since OM became mommys friend, Its like I don't matter to her now. I hate him for that. Dad when do you think that mommy will pull her head out and be my mom again.
Then his mother at her school. I asked WW how his mother even new about her and why. She said OM told her. So you know OM's mommy must really be a great one too. Condoning her son's affair with a married mother, then attempting to be friend to my daughter at school. I asked Daughter to tell me what that woman said. She told her what a great person OM is and how he and her are great friends and they would like to be friends with daughter. Daughter said this all made her stomach sick and she felt like her head was going to pop it hurt so bad.
This is why I wrote the letter to OM's mom.
Daughter blames WW for the problem in our family. She wants her mother back at home. She often has no patients for WW now. If WW is acting withdrawn from us she is sad and angry. If WW yells at me she has become increasingly angry with WW. I know this is all bad, and daughter is hurting.
I know the pain myself. My parents divorced when I was only 9. I hated them both for what they did to each other.
My dad acted just like Peachy's WH. He tried to beat up my mom, broke into the house by kicking in doors, hired PI's, installed phone taps, verbally fought in front of me and said things that destroyed me. I suffered very much, scared for life. I became an introvert and depressed. I lived three years with my grand parents as my grand father was dieing of cancer. Me and my grand mother bonded. I became her son that helped her get passed the grief of loosing her husband. During this time my mother went two years with out tring to reach me. I have forgave her but will never forget. My dad once he gave up fighting with my mother tried to be good to me. However, he to was just to busy to be a father. He owned two businesses and never had time for me. My dad lived in another town 30 miles away. Going back and forth on week ends, holidays, and summers ruined any chances i had with bonding with friends. Every year after summer I had to make a new best friend because my old one gave up on me and could not wait all summer for my return. This isolated me as a kid. I felt so alone for must of my child hood.
You see I know what divorce does to kids. This is part of what fuels me and my love for WW. I'm a caring person. I do very much love my daughter and the woman I married. I'm scared for both of them. I want to help them. I will take the bullet try to save them and us. I know there is a good deep inside my WW. Is she to far gone to the dark side? I don't know. I pray for her and my family. I ask that you all pray for my wife too. She is the one that needs god the most right now.
I wanted to say somthing to Peach.
Your post about turning your husband over to god. That really got to me. That made me cry. I think all of us BS's think about it just like that. Can we help or is it too late for us and at what point do we turn it over to god. When really god is there the entire time, it's up to us to listen. Just like my wife questioning that feeling inside her when she thinks about being with OM and not me. I have always had a silly belief that god speaks to all us this way. Our conscious is like a phone line to god.
I used to pray for god to help me, but have realized how selfish that is. I pray for god to help my wife and daughter. I ask him to help save our marriage and I promise him that I will not fail my family again. I believe he with us, we just have to choose to listen and look.
Okay- I'm stepping down off my soap box now.
I did call WW just before lunch. My lunch plans changed and i had told her I would be home for lunch and she could find me there if she needed me. I so let her know what was up and asked if she was okay. She sounded okay and was not crapy with me. I wished her a good day and to not let any one hassle her.
I bet the real big push from OM started today.
What do you all think I should do about the secret cell phone???????
She hides it in her purse. I hate that she's got it but it really bothers me when she uses it in the house. She has carried her purse with her into the bath room for long periods of time. That was her old trick before D-day.
I check the history on it when she's in the shower. Part of me is really scared of what I might find. I think if i seen a message from him telling her sex stuff or hating on me I might loose it.
Do I just ask her if she has a new phone or what.... I think its in OM's name. Her name comes up on the display, but when I typed the number in at the provider website it comes up as wrong name or number.
She told me along time ago that OM wanted to give her a cell phone to replace the one i broke.
It just hit me, OM probably gave her the phone or made her get one just so he can keep tabs on her.
There was no other numbers in the contact list other than his. His number is the only one on the call log and also on the recieved log.
That basturd..... Is it wrong to pray that god get him for this and do it now?

The phone my wife was using I just stepped on it and crushed it...destroying it. Didnt say a word to her. Didnt have to! She was POed...at the time, I didnt care.

Not sure if that was the best course of action...but I would have no problem throwing away a phone belonging to the OM that was in my house. Or anything he may have given her.

In His arms.

Mortarman- I can always count on you to cut through the crap and do what needs to be done... lol

Thanks Dazed...

On a similar note, while in Plan A, I used to irk her when I would catch her calling him, and I would say "you are not allowed to call him." Man, that got her ticked off. How dare I treat her like a teenage girl? Well, everyone knows the answer to that question...because she was acting like a 17 year old in heat. If she wanted to be treated like an adult, then she needed to start acting like a 30 something year old Christian wife with three kids.

That even caught the eye of a Christian counselor we went to see during all of this. Actually during recovery. we were rehashing some thigns she didnt like during the affair (like me exposing, all of the intelligence gathering...and treating her like a child). I told the counselor in front of her that she wasnt allowed to see or talk to the OM. Could I stop her? No. But there were things I could (and did) do. A married woman is not allowed to carry on an affair. It is immoral...and in Virginia it is against the law.

So, while feminists would hate me talking to a woman like that...I had no problem treating her and the affair just as it should be treated. I love my wife. But when it came to my WW? That is a different story!

In His arms.

If the phone is in OM's name then I suggest calling some 1-900 party line numbers or calls to China in Peak hours. Set the phone down and rack up a huge bill. Download crappy ringtones or other features which cost $$$$.

Obviously confirm the phone is in his name first otherwise your wife (you) may end up stuck with the bill.

Mr. Wondering

ps-If she starts deleting her call log you can always check the hours/minutes of phone usage log to confirm contact

p.s.s.-If you destroy the phone, OM just got a settlement so they will likely just get another and never allow you access (she will hide it better).

p.s.s.s. - keep up the Plan A, she may be breaking.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

I like Mr. Wondering's idea better!!! Leave it to a lawyer!

In His arms.

Mr.W- I agree.. I had first planned on using it as a way to snoop and see how the other half is living. What type of messages OM is leaving. Control and pressure or loving sappy crap. My feel is control and pressure is increasing daily. Now that OM is a free turd I think pressure and control is on order for WW.
I have been wondering all day how see will take it. Knowing that with me she always hated it. However, Harley said that she may see his control methods as attention and affection. I hope not. The woman I knew would have told him where to shove it in no time flat. I know she is confused and can't think, so it may seem nice that OM is directing her along. Let him do the planning and thinking. I think that has been what he has been doing all along. I give him credit for being good at playing her. I never did that with her. The last time she had any of that was early in high school when she dated a guy way older guy that abused her badly.

FRANK-
I wanted to say your comments are so inspirational to me. Thank you so much. You are correct, my wife does not have the capasity to be violent with me. She has a lot of bark but no bite. She is 5'1" 120lbs. I'm 6'4" 215. No she has never seen a gun. I had to train her how to use mase...
OM is a low life that his EXW tells me he has threatened many times and recently pushed her down, against the wall, and held her by the arms over her stair case. This was all to make her stop talking to me and WW about who he really is. His wife was also very small. 5'2" 95lbs. What a big man throwing around a woman the size of a child.
Back to my point.
FRANK-Please stay active in my sitch. I really draw strength from you and your reassurance is great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thank You..
Thanks again for your prayers. Pray for my wife too.

Dazed:

I find some of your posts confusing. I am not quite sure of why you are in denial of all of this. You are worried about what HAS ALREADY happened. Man, I know that everyoine here wants you to so much save your marraige, but I must say...at what point do you stop "taking bullets" and start protecting yourself. Are you on Antideppressants? Do you fully realize the extreme dysfunction that you live in and allow to continue.

I know that you and I are completely different people with completely different view points and are in different stations in life....But we are both still men...and at some point, the bullets that you think you are brave for taking, become a "crutch" that you are afraid to stop using.

It is your life, so in the end you will end up being 100% responsible for the outcomes of life.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HI Dazed...

Thanks for the kind words.... I hope I can help because I KNOW how VERY VERY hard this is...

I've got to say that (Knowing the signs) I only hinted before that your WS heart is softening...returning to normal... NOW I AM SURE.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


LOOK AT WHAT SHE'S SAYING....!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As she held on to me she said, it feels so natural to touch you. The way we fit feels right. You are so familiar to me. It feels so wrong deep inside to think about being with anyone else. RENT THE MOVIE "THE STORY OF US" With Bruce Willis....and IF SHE WANTS TO watch it with her (pick the timing well and it will be a knock-out punch!!)

BS. I still love you YES!! NO love you BUTS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

She says, god your so perfect now. You are the dad to DD that I always wanted. You are trying so hard now it makes me so sad. I should have found a way to talk to you before all this.



AND YOU GOT A TON OF INFORMATION BY BEING VERY GENTLE AND NOT PUSHING.... I WAS AMAZED AT THE LONG CONVERSATION ABOUT OM.... THAT IS RARE.....EVEN IN RECOVERY.......AND WHEN YOU VERY TACTFULLY ADDED YOUR VERY INSIGHTFUL IDEAS NOT ONLY DIDN'T SHE STOP YOU.... SHE AGREED!! GREAT JOB... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (that was very dangerous BTW like going for it on 4th and 10!! but you got your first down..... be careful....that was rare..) BUT....She fact that she let this conversation GO ON FOR SO LONG.. is such a good sign.... like.... YOU AND HER AGAINST OM... (instead of Her and OM against YOU!!!) Nice change.... no defending the OM ....NICE!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />




However, it is a VERY delicate time right now..... I saw (and I'm sure you've noticed) INCREDIBLE PROGRESS AND HOPE..

I'm sure that this has the potential to come to a head VERY SOON....

But like I said.... a VERY delicate time....

BECAUSE of the progress it is YOU that must be at your strongest now.... there WILL most likely be a setback.......at least it's highly likely..... It may seem like you're back to square one..... This will be very frustrating and hurtful... But the affair WILL die and like anything that dies.....it will take one last desperate gasp......clutching and fighting for a last breath.....think of a life struggling to stay alive....it will have great strength......then die.....

This will be very hard on you.... the hardest to date....DON'T REACT.....DON'T FLINCH........CONTINUE TO BE GENTLE AND HOLD YOUR ANGER
(Which I think is very natural for you.... you strike me as a very good and kind spirit )
Any ANGER.... JUDGMENT......PUSHING.... will give this thing CPR and help it live....it's gonna die.... just let it.... don't give it ANY breath at all......BE SMART.... STAY STRONG...... YOU ARE GETTING THE JOB DONE.....YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!!

LOOK AT HOW GOOD YOU'RE GETTING....!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"I'm debating on calling her today and offering to be there or give remind her to not let him push her.
However, I think that makes me look like the pusher. So I'm standing down, hoping that he will continue to unravel and help her see that the light. I know patients, and planning.

I think I just need to make me look safe and un-pressuring right now. Attractive to her so when OM pushes she has me to run to."

RIGHT RIGHT and RIGHT..!!!!!


I did call WW just before lunch. My lunch plans changed and I had told her I would be home for lunch and she could find me there if she needed me. I so let her know what was up and asked if she was okay. She sounded okay and was not crapy with me. I wished her a good day and to not let any one hassle her.

NICE PLAN "A" STUFF HERE!!



+Our conscious is like a phone line to god. " I loved that thought....thanks...


I'M TELLING YOU BROTHER... YOU ARE THE ROOKIE OF THE YEAR.... WE ARE PROUD OF YOU!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> you really get this and are doing a great job.... one that you can be VERY proud of.....you're strength no doubt is coming from God..... he is with you I can feel it.....



This will sound crazy but affairs remind me of the movie "The Exorcist" Remember when the priest confronts the demon and the demon tries everything to "trick" and scare him so he'll believe he is in control.....

Like....making the bed move.....vomiting.....taking on the form of the priest's recently deceased mother..... all the tricks and scare tactics.... when the young priest gets weak.... (REACTS TO THE DEMON) The older Priest tells him to leave the room right away... because the demon gets STRONGER WHEN REACTED TO..... Much like this affair stuff .... when we react and lovebust.... the affair gets stronger.......weird....huh


I wanted to answer some of your questions IMHO....

I know there is a good deep inside my WW. Is she to far gone to the dark side?

NOT EVEN CLOSE.... SHE WAS.......BUT YOU'RE BRINGING HER BACK..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Do I just ask her if she has a new phone or what.... I think its in OM's name.

DON'T EVEN LET HER KNOW YOU KNOW ABOUT IT...... NEVER GIVE UP AN EDGE... YOU CAN GET GOOD INFO FROM THIS.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


That basturd..... Is it wrong to pray that god get him for this and do it now?

DON'T WORRY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> HE'LL GET HIM.....AS HARD AS THIS IS TO BELIEVE...YOU MAY FEEL SORRY FOR HIM SOMEDAY....



She is 5'1" 120lbs. I'm 6'4" 215.

LOL!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> THAT IS GREAT......I GUESS YOU'RE SAFE....


GOD BLESS YOU DAZED... YOU'RE A GOOD MAN THAT IS FIGHTING HARD (With gentle power) FOR YOUR MARRIAGE....

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AND POST AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.... WE'RE HERE....... AND WE WORRY WHEN YOU DON'T..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS...FRANK

P.S. If you think of it....please pray for MY WS.... she's very much in the dark side and she is going through a lot of confusion and pain right now... and I can't help her..It's in God's hands...

Update-
No ground breaking news.
I had more drive by encounters with OM yesterday than ever before. The morning I seen him a block from my house. I have started showing him he is No.1 each time I see him. Knowing he is unraveling I figure a little push from me might help. He is a coward having me taunt him should really eat at him. When I see him there is no signs of humor on his face. In fact he looks scared and does nothing. I no he will report this to WW. I'm hoping with anger and demands tie to it.
I seen him again as I took D12 to swim team practice. Don't worry I did nothing with D12 in the truck. In fact I turned to talk to daughter so she did not see him.
After dropping off daughter I seen him go by the school in the opposite direction. Gave him the sign. Then a few minutes later as I left a Wendys drive through.
WW called at 5 and gave D12 a couple lame excusses for not being home until 8PM after practice. When we got home WW was back in the withdrawn mode. I tried to make some small talk nothing. I gave her a new YMCA membership card I just renewed. Nothing. She asked to go to Wal-mart and get a few things. D12 left the room and I asked was that directed towards me or just D12? She said nothing. I said that's nice of you, thanks. As she left for Wal-mart she asked if she could bring me something back to eat. I said no thanks. If you can't be seen with me, then don't bring me nothing to eat. Maybe wrong, but I was angry.
When she came back she set back down on the couch. Silent. I tried to talk to her, all most nothing back. We watched tv for nearly an hour. When i sent D12 upstairs to get ready for bed. I asked WW, So did he give you a big lecture to night or what? She says why would you say that. NO. I said, well you haven't said three words to me all night and are as distant as you can be and still be in the room. He must have told you to not talk to me, huh. She said what makes you think I even talked him. I did not see him tonight. I said, okay. I seen the clown driving around several times. I figure he was looking for you or talking to you, thats his normal routine. She said i did not see him tonight. OKAY, and I left the room. After stewing for a bit, I went back down. Picked up my things I had left lay around. I told WW, Okay so you want me to ignore you back. Is that what you want? Okay then, I'm going to bed. If you want to talk, you know where I'm at.
She came upstairs later. I heard her at the bed room door way. She looked at me for a while, then went on into the guest room and slept there. I woke up around 3Am. Decided to go check on WW. She was actually in the guest bed. I went down stairs to get a drink of water.
I decided to write her a note and place in her make up room to read in the moring.

I wrote a little note. I can't remember all of it but here goes:
WW, All I want is for us to be happily in love with each other. I dream of a time when we can have friendly conversation with each other about anything again. I want to do fun things together with you. I want to know you again. I want to know about things you like, what interest you, makes you laugh.
I wish we could do little things together like walks in the park, shopping for music and cloths or just even house supplies, watching movies or watching tv and missing half the show talking and planning things for us to do in the future together. The fun parts of life.
Love
Me

I put the note in a place so she could easily find it. I seen her purse and checked the phone. She called him at 5:05, talked for 3 min. He called her at 5:10, and talked for 8 min. He called her at 6:01, the same time I passed him on the way to swim practice. Talked for 6 min. Then she called him at 7:22 and talked for 53 min. This was right up till I got home. When I got home the front door was locked. This must have been to give her time to put the phone away.

This morning i broght her back another pop and snack after dropping of D12 at school. By then she had to read the note. She thanked me and said, you deserve better than me.
Thats all for now.
Dazed.

Dazed....
Sounds like a tough day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />...
I think seeing OM is getting you angry and that anger builds inside you...I feel for you!



I understand the silent treatment and the frastration...but (you knew that was coming) try not to be sarcastic...


How does a statement like this help you? Just ask if she spoke to him IF you believe she tells you the truth!
Why do I get the feeling this statement was not said in the most loving tone? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, dazed...try to hold back...

Does it matter what he is telling her? No. Any contact is bad! So, just say you don't want any contact! That is your mission to END the contact!


I thing it is fine that you told her this....She needs to know you don't like him driving around....and again you don't want CONTACT!


Again, this statement does not help....

I don't really know what else you can say....maybe just tell her what you said in the note...that you want to talk to her freely and have her feel the same...



A really nice note!


Dazed...I am a confused! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Why have you decided not to take the phone??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You know she is talking to OM and you are not putting a stop to it....is that not the 'stick' of plan A.... I am all for trying to save a M, but why are you not telling her you know about the phone calls and you know about the cell phone and that you don't like it....take the phone! I know, you figure she will go 'underground'....so what? Why are you making it easier for her to carry on the A????? How does you knowing that she has the phone and you knowing that she talks to OM 6 minutes here and 50 minutes there help you???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> SHe is having an A...ofcourse she is talking to him....untill the two of you agree that she can have a phone and YOU get to look at who she is talking to and for how long, basically until you are in the first stage of recovery ....you assume she is talking to him! Take the phone!

Best to you dazed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Nice work Daisy...
Took the words right out of my mouth,....I'vc been busy today.... DAZED.... she's right... you're doing great otherwise... keep this stuff to a minimum!! This is the delicate time remember? You are the safe place with NO PRESSURE!!! And keep your middle finger in your pocket.... you're better than that.... don't let OM see you REACT to him.... he......is......not......worth......it.......

He looks kind of panicy huh!!! LOL... POOOORRRR OM... (let's not gloute though.....he's still around and can to damage.....) Let's be better than that...


DAISY.......The only thing is.... don't you think it's better for him to ignore the cell phone? I mean... at least he can keep tabs and KNOW rather than GUESS what contact is..... THAT WILL MAKE DAZED MORE LIKLEY TO PRESSURE..I THINK.....

WE KNOW... she'll still have contact.... and WHEN they are in "Recovery" he can ask for no contact.... BUT...

Although she's really leaning towards DAZED side of the fence she's still on it.....we don't want to knock her off the fence with something she may see as CONTROLING.... the very thing OM is doing to push her towards DAZED.... she can't comprehend this yet IMHO......

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS.... FRANK

PH...

I do understand he does not want to be controlling....but I would be interested to know what is DAZED reasoning for not doing anything about the phone....(I might have missed it...sorry)....


I know he cannot force her not to have the phone....but should he not express his hurt to her of her having the phone? Is that not part of PlanA? (Plan A in theory is easy....it is harder in practice...I am confused <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.....)


Dazed....
It seems to me that OM is getting desperate...who knows what he is telling her...but driving around your house all the time is not a good sign....IMHO it is a sign of desperation on his part.....he is not as sure of their A as he would be otherwise......

So, use that to your advantage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />....don't show the finger....let him know you see him....but no need to show him what this is doing to you.....

Best.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Daisy

Thanks to you all on here.
I'm sorry to say that today I crashed pretty hard.
The frustration and pain did come to a boil today.
A friend of mine that I told about WW needing a job called and gave me a tip about an office assistant opening here in town. I checked it out and the job is pretty much the same thing she is doing now.
I called WW and asked if she was doing okay. I asked if she could talk speak with no one around. "YES". I asked if she could use a good job lead. She says I don't know. She says well what is it. As I told her I was looking on the Internet and pulled up her work place site. I seen the add for her job was gone. I asked do you still need a job. No answer. She says well i have to go, well talk later.
So she is not going to quit like she had said. I decided to call WW and see if she could go to lunch with me and talk. She said, sorry I have plans.
Okay- This is where fate would have it. As I'm heading toward town for lunch, right as I near the Interstate over pass I see my WW's car go by on the highway.
I lost it. I knew she was going to go see the basturd. I turned on the highway and followed her to the next exit. Right to a parking lot where the puke was parked waiting. Also a new girl friend of hers setting parked just a little ways way. I stopped besides OM and he did not even see me. He was to busy watching WW getting out of her car. I honked at him and waved. I pulled on into the parking. WW did not even see me..wow She was getting into strange womans truck when I pulled in right in front of them. I got out and told WW to get out. I asked her friend if she knew that WW was still married to and she has a little girl at home and how it felt to be condoning an affair of my wife married to me with that low life puke parked just over there. She looked at WW as if surprised. WW put her head down. I motioned for OM to come on over. WW says please leave. I said get out. She gets out. Tells me she is sick of me making her look like a fool. I said, you are a fool. A married mother running around with another man and lying to everyone here about it.
Before I left I told WW that if god did not get him first I would. I know this was wrong... I just was so frustrated.
WW says why are you doing this. I said, I'm so stupid that I still love you. Your continueing to see him is destroying us. Just stop seeing him. You got started this mess by seeing him, just stop it now for us. She said just leave. So I did.
I called WW's work around 2:45. They said she is out until 4PM. Okay-I figure she is at one of a couple places. Police, Lawyer, Court house. I sign out of the office, head home to make sure daughter is safe. I get one block from the house and WW calls my cell from the house. She wants to talk about our divorce.
I get there she ask me to just agree to a divorce and be normal about it. I told her how i felt about her us the divorce. We started talking about OM. I told her i would show him the same respect. I pointed out that OM just dumped his wife that he promised to love forever. What makes you think he wont do that to you????
I will do anything for you. Obviously even make a fool out of myself to prove to you that I love you. I will never agree to hand you over to a theif that stoll you away. I will never agree to just hand you over to this guy that completely disrepected his wife, you, your child, and me.
I can not stop you from making the biggest mistake of your life. I do not have to agree with it. She got mad and said I just cant talk to you when you are like this and she left.
I have to go home now. Should be nice tonight.

DAZED.... what were you thinking.... (PLEASE ALLOW ME TO BEAT YOU UP A LITTLE.... THEN WE'LL WORK ON FIXING IT) oh man.... I'm afraid you did some serious damage here....NOT FATAL... but you may have to see her leave now... SH*T... I tryed to warn you last night that the "bad" would pull back hard....that this would be the hardest time and you needed your strenght the most over the next few days...

Man.... I hate this......^%^&^^%*@^%%%@&**@^%%$$@@^^^
atuff.....

This could have been avoided.... NOT EASILY... but it didn't have to happen...

WHAT IF SHE WAS MEETING HIM TO BREAK IT OFF......????????
WHAT IF SHE WAS MEETING HIM TO BREAK IT OFF......????????
WHAT IF SHE WAS MEETING HIM TO BREAK IT OFF......????????
WHAT IF SHE WAS MEETING HIM TO BREAK IT OFF......????????

That is VERY possible......WHAT IF THE FRIEND WAS THERE FOR SUPPORT (should have been YOU but...)

WHAT IF HE FOLLOWED HER AND SHE WASN'T MEETING HIM BUT THE WOMAN TO HELP HER SORT THIS OUT?????

THIS....MY FRIEND... IS WHY WE DON'T REACT......

OK..... get it.... you were a BAD BOY today....
Now before everyone jumps in and says..... RUN HIDE.... SAVE YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY... AND GET A BAZOOKA RIGHT AWAY......

You have to be humble and ask her forgivness...... you may have enough in the LB to weather this.... turn it to your advantage......

WHATEVER SHE SAYS IN RESPONSE SHUUUUUTTTTTTTT UPPPPPPPPPPPP unless it's a question.... and be VERY careful HOW (what tone) you answer in..

NO PREACHING TONIGHT...
NO PLANS TONIGHT....
NO BARGINING TONIGHT....

OOPS....
NO PREACHING TONIGHT...
NO PLANS TONIGHT....
NO BARGINING TONIGHT....
NO TELLING HER WHAT TO DO....
NO ASKING QUESTIONS....
NO TALKING ABOUT OM....
NOTHING BUT QUITE OR LISTENING (AFTER YOU TELL HER YOU'RE SORRY)

What you did was wrong...telling her friend about this.... that was wrong my friend...sorry....that was kind of cruel....especially if she WASN'T meeting OM and was followed...

So.... THAT is what you tell her you're sorry about....
When you saw OM you lost it.and you're sorry....

See....THIS IS THE VERY THING WS'S ARE AFRAID OF

NEVER LIVING IT DOWN....
NEVER BEING "REALLY" FORGIVEN
BEING PUNISHED FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES....
FEELING LIKE A TRAMP FOR THE REST OF THER LIVES...
DEALING WITH ANGER AND JUDGEMENT THE REST OF THEIR LIVES....
NEVER REALLY FORGIVING THEMSELVES THE REST OF THEIR LIVES...


YOU GET THE IDEA.... THEY ARE SO CONFUSED AT THIS POINT THEY THINK....IF THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN... MIGHT AS WELL
AT LEAST TRY....AND BELIEVE OM'S PROMISES


OK..... GO BACK AND READ MY POST FROM LAST NIGHT.... AND START OVER.....YOU CAN STILL DO THIS....DON'T WORRY.... I THINK YOU MAY HAVE ENOUGH IN THE LB TO GET BY THIS...

PLEASE CALM DOWN AND GET HUMBLE.... THAT WAS WRONG TODAY..... IT'S OK.... WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES...SHE MAY FORGIVE YOU (BTW... not that she didn't bring this on herself but that's between us OK)

You may be able to use YOUR forgivness a little.....and ask that she forgive you since you've forgiven her.... and that you're not asking to go back all the way back.... but back to a couple of days ago...

GOOD LUCK X 100!! AND VERY VERY INTENSE PRAYERS FOR TONIGHT AND TOMORROW FRANK

Dazed....

So sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.....I did not know what to say when I read this....I did not want to take out the 2x4....

We all know what crup you have to put up with and that it is painful to see her with OM, etc...remember we are on your side....

Nevertheless....your objective (I am assuming) is still to save your M....the way to do it is to do the Plan A thing....

Dazed..you are hurting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />...but do try to follow PH's advise...try not to LB tonight! Seriously....this is the time to show her that YOU are the MAN! You don't yell and preach and defend your actions! You do not want to LB tonight! Try, really try!

You took some steps back today....but you can take some forward....so do that....

Best of luck to you..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Last thing....take advantage of this board and come over here not just to report the new events...but YELL and GET all the anger out of you....I do that....we all need an outlet....so unless you sit in your car at the railroad trucks as a train goes by and SCREAM AND SCREAM (as I have done <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)...come over here!

Daisy

Ok.

First of all, to those who constantly type in all caps, it is considered yelling on the internet...

Now Dazed...

I was afraid this would happen.

A BS can only endure so much before they come close to breaking...that is why plan A has a time limit.

Do not beat yourelf up. You've taken so much from this woman...I do not understand any moves she has made. One thing is for sure in my opinion...

She was NOT going to break it up w/om.

I don't believe that for one minute.

However, before doing anything else...like plan B, I do believe you should send WW a card and flowers...she may not feel like talking...I don't thinks she would. Ask for the forgiveness...and yes, help, I am with you..but my "with you" stops here...ask for forgiveness because you have forgiven her. Say that you've been pushed to your limit, but you still believe in your marriage and still believe both of you can work things out. I would do that and no more.

My heart says that you're nearing the end of a plan A. When the plan A stress gets to the BS stuff like this happens...and they begin to LB themselves...

Think hard. Call the Harleys. When you are at risk for losing the remaining love you have, that is when you consider other options.

One of the things I always believed and still do is to never give a WS an inch when it comes to weaponry against you.

Your slightest wrong move can be used as ammo to justify the horribly and dastardly deeds that are really going on in the shadows with the op.

I would spend tomorrow getting flowers to her...a card to her..and think...and call the harleys. Get a call in asap. This is not good to do anymore. This kind of behavior cannot happen anymore. Your daughter needs a stable home now. She's got one parent who is. And that one parent has so much stress up to his eyeballs that he is beginning to unravel himself. Who is left to be the responsible loving parent for your dd?

You owe it to dd to stay sane, stay smart, and do all you can do to keep your family together.

If your ww files for a D, then let her. But get and gather the evidence and counter. When a D is contested, it takes longer btw! I hope and pray she doesn't do it...but she is still very much in the affair.

All actions point to the affair being active. I also do not like the way she has suddenly "clammed up". That makes me think she is up to something.

I gotta go...am on call tonight, need to return my ipod, and get to gym..hopefully the pager won't go off. I'd llike six hours of sleep tonight.


She is a taker right now...and takers use every instance to TAKE AND BLAME. Take and blame! That's what she was looking for dazed...a loophole to make her actions ok in eyes of others...the "but you don't know my crazy bh" story...

This is not the first time you've treated her like a disobedient child. I think it is a huge LB...but you did it...you had your limit and you've reached it imho.

How do you find out if she's off after om? Easy. You hire a PI...if you want to see if she's shacking up with him, meeting him, etc,hire one! Do NOT go after her yourself or else stupid things like this will be the result.

Dazed....

Peachy is right....get a PI if you want to know what is going on! That is why they are there....it is not a good idea for the BS to go off following their WS.... I did that one night followed my H around (BAD idea)...did not catch him doing anything(thank god)...but after that I realized if I had I was bound to do something like you had...and would that have helped????



Get the flowers...get the card...and call the Harleys....

I have been suggesting that for some time....why not try it now.?????

What do you got to loose...

Best....
Daisy

THANKS DAISY for the help...
Are you going to be around for a while... I have to step out for an hour or two and he needs someone here in case he can't control his anger and things get really bad tonight...

I'll wait to hear your reply...
DAZED.... listen to DAISY.... she's right..... come here (or the railroad tracks LOL... and YELL.. AND SCREAM.....CRY.. WHATEVER... BUT ONLY DO IT HERE...

Good Job Peach... I kind of like the idea of a PI at this point... although in my case I never wanted to know what was going on between them.... it ruined my focus.. and made me CRAZY!! I couldn't handle it...
AND DAZED.... IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY... CALL THE HARLEYS...
(btw I AM yelling! with caps...! Not really I fine it for me it's easier to read..)

Dazed....
Listen, you cannot plan for a situation like the one that happened to you today... you can hope that you get through it without a big step back....ok, too late for that...
So, now...... you can plan what to do when you get home tonight.....so no LBs! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Buy her flowers...she might not want them...but you get them anyway....if she does not like it tonight....she will remember that later, guaranteed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.....

I really hope you get the chance to calm down before you talk to her tonight...do try....

I wish you all the best....

I got to go now...I would stay, but I got some coffee plans with a friend of mine and H's so I got to be on my best behaviour in case this gets around to him .... got to take that big breath!

I'll be back though......again I wish you the best tonight...

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I

I posted at the last minute before I had to go. So i just read your comments.
WW met me at home around 3PM she would only talk divorce. She was so mad and angry. I pretty much took it. I tried to tell her what happened but she would not hear it. Only that I must stop holding her back and just let go and agree to a divorce. She got mad and left when i would not agree to discuss it.
She came home at 6Pm after I took daughter to practice. Still only wanting to discuss divorce arrangements.
We did talk about why I did that. I told her what i told you. We did talk about OM and his wife and his divorce and him and his part in coaching her. This did make her think and she calmed down. She defended him on some stuff but other stuff about dumping his wife and taking her money she got quite on. Also all the really ugly stuff his EXW told him about him being a sexual pervert and how he abused his EXW sexually and that was the biggest rif in there marriage. The entire think about OM and his EX not having sex for over a year and what he did to her. WW said he addmits to masterbating and played it off as all guys do it especially when your wife wont give it up. This talk scared WW and she stopped being angry with me real fast. She paused for a few minutes and then said so I'm suppose to stay here with you and be sad for the rest of my life? We talked about starting over and she is so mad at me for now turning over a new leaf after she gave up on me. I got the old love you but not in love with you. She continued to ask me to let her go. I told her I will never give her away to another man. I said, you know I don't want you to go and I believe in my heart we could start over. Time with out him in your life. We talked about how she felt when he quit working there and how that was a major reason why they fell in love. The common things in life. How she felt the lose of him when he quit. How work sucks now and when i broke the phone how that hurt by not having him there 24-7. I said, you see me as the wedge between the great fun you had before I found out about this thing. She actually said, it was you and your big mouth that runined it for us. I said, do you really think divorcing me will make it all better with you two? Now that you two dont work together, that common bond is gone. You said the other thing was you two sharing your marriage problems was a big connection. Now thats over, so now what. What do you two now have in common? She set quite.
She says I guess if I dont go I will always wonder what if and my life with you dont get better.
I said, what if you think that about me?
There was a lot of this stuff. I finally told her that she is the one that controls her own actions. If she as to go I can only ask not to. I will not support a choice of hers to leave but can't hold her captive either.
She hugged me we cried together. I left to go get daughter. Daughter called home to get her order for dinner.
When I got home I caught WW on the phone with him. She was very caught and new it. She seen me and pushed the button to hang up. Daughter was still out side. I said, please dont tell me as she held the phone. She looked at me, and I new it was him. I said, WW why now. Just like our anniversary he can't leave you alone with me. He is still coaching you even now. She ran upstairs to bed and last I seen burried herself under all the blankets.

Man...I must say, I know "support" is needed and all, but any interpretation of this situation with the above post is bordering north of ludicrous.

PH, I read your story and I know you want to help Dazed save his marriage in the worst way, but please for the LOVE OF GOD (yes, Peach I am screaming)....don't post completely IMPOSSIBLE interpretations of his WW's behavior to offer him "support". Come on now. GET REAL.

Yes, you want to encourage him, I understand, but any one who thinks that Dazed's wife was going to try and break it off with the OM and was looking for support with her friend today, is just plain in denial.

Yeah, I will probably get slammed for not being "supportive" or "marriage supoorting"...but so be it...telling Dazed that this was a "possible" scenario, highlighted with 4 capitalized lines is just plaid old....KOOL-AID.....let me get a sip, I have 4 cases scheduled tomorrow and I could use the "high".

Get real.

Dazed, I am not offering you marriage advice, but while everyone pleads for you to show your wife compassion and show her your manhood......you are seriously broaching onto the line where all she thinks of you is as some weak, needy fool. Despite what people will tell you, there comes a time when Plan A only hinders you and makes you a doormat (that is in my opinion already in your rear view window).

Call DR Harley, what does he say...give ALL of the details to him.

I will do my sincere best to let the others help you win this mess back, but I in good conscious had to say something here....I will now promise to watch the car wreck from the streets.

Sorry.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dazed...

Let me ask you again....don't you think this may be the time to call the Harleys????

Have you notice we all seem to agree that it is time to talk to them?

Think it over....it probably is worth it....

Best...
Daisy

DAZED...

Glad you're back and OK (as you can be) Give all the talk a rest.... go back to just normal life as much as possible.....

If you catch her talking to him just walk away.... don't react... just walk away.....

I think she knows that it won't work with OM and is still wondering how it can with you.... LET HIM PUSH... YOU GENTLY PULL...

If you can.... take the day off tomorrow or plan something fun the three of you can do tomorrow night....

Don't ask her.... just go get tickets to a movie....make dinner reservations.....fly a kite....whatever.....
Preferably something SHE really loves to do and you haven't done in a while.... take the girls clothes shopping... whatever.....

Just tell her that she needs a break from all this stress and so do you and DD.... tell her....let's go.... very light heartedly... no pressure just matter of factly......I have tickets to the movies....let's go shopping....
I don't know what she likes but you do...PRAY and ask GOD to help you pick something perfect.....

Even if you can't get her to go..... she will remember the offer and that will remind her how WELL you know her.... and to KNOW someone is to LOVE them...

And if she says OK... GREAT.... GO FOR IT.... HAVE FUN.... SMILE.....LAUGH......ENJOY EACH OTHER....

No pressure.....no questions.....no answers.... even if she starts with the questions..... gently remind her that this is a fun day/night and tickle her...or something...
It's hard to discribe what to do in a post... YOUR HEART KNOWS WHAT TO DO....listen....\

You have to repair the damage of today.... she's still on the fence.... she's scared and confused.... you guys need a break.....ALL THREE.....

Show her the future without OM....show her the man you're become and the one that's still growing and learning...

YOU CAN DO THIS......
I'm going to light a candle for you and let it burn all night as a sybmol of God's devine light and HIS hope for your Marriage..
ANYONE ELSE WANT TO JOIN ME.....POST IN...... LET'S LIGHT ONE FOR THESE GUYS AND LET DAZED KNOW WE CARE......LET GOD KNOW WE CARE......HOW ABOUT ONE FOR ALL 50 STATES....AND ANY COUNTRY THAT'S READING.....

USA and NEW HAMPSHIRE IS IN....... ANYONE ELSE???


GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS.... FRANK

I fully support him and you knoww where I am from.

Also, I would add to dazed this...

do NOT enable a cake eater by buying too many gifts, etc...you need to show kudos for GOOD behavior period.

Please call Harleys. Do not sugarcoat anything. State it is as is..what has transpired in last 48 hrs, and her stating she wants a D.

Frank-
There is no way she will do anything with me out side of the house. She has not let herself be seen in public with me in four months.
She is done talking about any chance of us. Every time I say the word us. She gets really angry and yells as loud as she can there is no us. She will not tell me nothing. She did with draw her resignation. She is completely underground with everything she is doing. She gets really really angry if I say anything to her. When I try to talk about her having an option to stay, she just gets mad. Screams I do not want to.. Ask why I'm holding her and why can't I be civil about agreeing to do a divorce peaceful. I tried to tell her I'm not holding her. She is free to go. I'm only trying to show you there is another way. She just gets mad and screams at me.
She did not go to work today. I asked if she had the day off and she would not tell me anything other than what i do is not your business. I figure she is probably meeting lawyers or going to the court house of packing her bags.
I told her I have loved her through everything, and have held my end of our promise. If you go my job to protect you and be there for you will be finished. I will never give you to another man, but I will give you to god to help you because I no longer can.
My job as a father is not done. I will be there for her and protect her. I can let you force him on her. She is already really hurt and she will be destroyed by what your doing. She will not be ready for you to be with him, and maybe not for a very long time.
I will agree to go along with a divorce under one condition. She is not every around him. You can not move in with OM and expect me to go along with you taking Daughter into that enviroment.
There was some arguing in between this talk. She same crap about how this is my fault that she is with OM. I really did not take that. Accepted my mistakes but would not take the blame for her trading me in for him.
I don't know if I should run to my lawyers office and push the button or play along with her. She claims to want to work together on a divorce plan but I think its another lie.
She says she wants nothing from me. No money, child support. Only asset is her car, cloths, and joint custody of daughter.
I don't have a problem with the car and cloths, but I don't want daughter around OM.

Dazed-

It sounds as though your wife MIGHT be at a point where you truly can educate her a little bit.

Tell her about my story...if you don't remember it, take a look for it over on the recovery board. My wife too was convinced that 'she'd never be happy again' with me. That the kids and I had 'ruined her only chance to be happy with the love of her life'. Seriously, straight withdrawl/fog talk.

My wife can't believe that she felt that way now. She said she was so confused and lost that she didn't know what she was feeling. Let your wife know that my wife felt the same way...and now she's VERY, VERY glad that I didn't let her go. Let her know that she's looking at your marriage now through a set of 'blinders'...they only let her see the bad things. But, those blinders WILL go away...as soon as she gets OM out of her eyes.

She's not going to want to realize that her case is CLASSIC affair stuff. There is nothing new or unusual about her situation, about her feelings for OM. But tell her that anyway...let her know that you've been getting support from a place where there are TONS of people who have been through the EXACT same thing, from all three sides (BS, WS< OP)...and let her know that they've talked with you about this and that there is NOTHING unusual about this case...and that the way she feels for OM is NOT a lasting thing...and that the love for you CAN and WILL return, once she gets OM out of her system.

Tell her to give you three months...TOTALLY without OM. If he calls, if they see each other, ANYTHING, that three months starts over. But to give you three months...if what she's got with OM is "true love" (BARF!), then three months of no contact with him won't mean a thing...her feelings won't change at all. And if she still feels the same way after not having ANY contact with OM at all after three months, and after she's worked on trying to rebuild things with you, that you'll sit down with her then and re-think what you're next steps will be. (This doesn't mean you're promising a divorce...just that you'll re-think things...leave it at that and don't elaborate).

The reality is this...if she can go three months of TRUE NC....she'll go withdrawl, and then she'll be over the OM. It's rare that withdrawl lasts longer than that if NC is STRICTLY enforced.

I've seen this ploy work for several people...give it a shot.

Owl- I agree with you and I know her relationship with OM will go bad. I know enough about him to know that he is a fraud. He is just a wolf in sheeps clothing. She can't see this now. I have pointed this all out to her. Last night we talked about this very thing. I know once he thinks he has her the real wolf will come out and she will pay the price. I know this.
She is not up for any lecturing. I know I have made her think and scared her. No matter what I say she says she just has to find out. She thinks he is her true love and just has to know.
My thoughts are she will lose everything to be with him. He will slowly take off the mask and she will one day realize she made the biggest mistake of her life. She is so stubborn and hard headed I don't know if she will swallow her pride and come back. She may just remain with him and give up and take it.
He is a loser that will hurt her, I have no doudt in my mind. If was a great guy, I might not even feel so bad. Crazy yes, I know.
I have offered your plan to her. She will not do it. OM will not let her. Just like last night, she had to check in with him when I turned my head. He is in complete control of her and has been for a long time. He has played her perfectly and she can not see it.
You know how sick she is. She is defending him about his sexual disfunction. Oh- yes. When she asked him about his sex life with his wife. You see she told WW and me that he seriously abused her in bed. Porn, objects, sodomy, etc. OM's wife claims this drove her into depression and killed her self esteam. She had to stop giving him sex because of how she felt about herself mentally and physcially when he was done. OM and her both say they did not have sex the last 2 years of there marriage. So, OM turned to porn and masterbation. WW is nuts enough to think that he really did not hurt his wife in bed, and his porn and masterbation is normal for a man going with out. I said, dear its been 9 montsh sense we made love. I have no porn and hand jelly laying around using nightly. He is sick... Do you really want to live it with him to find out for yourself?
You see this is a major point with her because she was raped and molested. She has some major sexuall limitations.
Okay- I seem to went off track here.
She will file for a divorce weather I go peaceful or stuggle. I know this. The question is do I play along with her or do I dig in. I don't think she will give up custody of daughter. This is a pride thing more than anything. She don't want the guilt of people saying she gave up her kid. Just like she don't want the guilt of people saying she did the divorce on her own. She wants me to help her look like the good person here. If I force her hand on this divorce thing and fight, I may not be able to do anything to protect daughter or myself.
I'm screwed either way. If I do it myself. I protect my assets and daughter while giving WW excuss. If I do nothing and fight her attempts for divorce I may not be able to protect daughter and I loose everything.

He's already tried that Owl. She is NOT in the mood to be educated.

Dazed -- take a good look at the whole situation from a distance. Do you know when she was most conflicted and open to working it out with you? Think for a minute................It was when you were taking steps to PUSH her out.

If you chase her, you are LESS attractive to her. Trust me.
If you beg, she will despise you for it.

Get back into Plan B mode PRONTO. Get your divorce filed. Its the right thing to do to protect your daughter. Daughter needs to be your first priority right now, not your wife or your marriage.

Go back into "protect mode."

Let her hit the bottom. She will. The life she is running toward is ugly. Let her go find out. You can't tell her so, she needs to learn it for herself.

Let her go.

(she'll be back)
Unfortunately if you get yourself to a calm peaceful place, you may not want her back. Her loss.

Lexxxy is correct on not educating her! Stop that.

In His arms.

I said this a while back.

Time for b.

Pack her bags...she is so adamant this is what she wants, give her the LOVING plan B letter...tell her when she is ready 2 read it that she can find a map back home inside...but that you're too hurt by this to continue this charade.

She has done this far too long...yelling still in the family home? this is so damaging....your dd sees this every day?

Please get the PI incase she does the immediate divorce thing...get the "dirt" onher...adultery, abandonment (she chooses to leave), etc...and only counter her in the divorce if she files first...

She has shown she is not really ready for om...she's scared...and when she has to face the fears of doing what she has been trying to do for months, it might be the only way she's gonna find her way back home...and without om forever.

We both know he's incapable of meeting real EN's...he was a lousy H to his xw, abusive, and would make a horrid stepdad...

BTW...you CAN subpoena the xw to get testimony that OM is a kinky dude and sex pervert for court~! how would that look for custody huh? Can we say it would PREVENT them from it?

If you play this smart now, it may not proceed to that. She needs to find herself attracted to YOU now...you've played the plan A to a t, with a few really angry outbursts...

Only way to handle it...You lashed out at her b/c you were "too hurt" and you need time alone. She said she wants to leave, well she is free. Let her. Let her leave. Pack her bags again for her~ tell her you love her, believe in your marriage, but you cant take this anymore unless she changes and has change of heart. That you choose to move on with her as a renewed married couple, of if she doesn't feel differently, then you will be the most darn loving, EN meeting single guy available! Just make it back on HER now...you can't cntinue with HER actions b/c of the pain...etc. She must STOP saying YOU are the root of the problems.

You're not. SHE IS AND THE AFFAIR IS!

You have allowed far too much cake eating now. She's gone into complete taker mode. She is spinning and blaming you for everything..plan A does NOT say to agree with a WS when they blame YOU for them choosing to have an A.

It could not hurt to run some ideas past an attorney. However, I would for sure get the PI. I'd have them followed. Get pics. Also have the phone and computer analyzed...get phone records, cell records etc. You and attny can create a plausable time line which clearly puts her in blame. And she's done enough to lose custody for sure...her emotional abuse has been horrible...I am sick to see ithappening still.

Just sit back and think. You did pretty much a good plan A. And now she needs to see what she is choosing over her family..see the guy for the ahole he really is...

It's not over yet! chin up! Head UP! Think thnk think! And call harleys and attorney and PI right away~

Dazed -- you have to let her go...if you want her back.
I'm sure that makes no sense at all, but its the way it has to be.

Read this article. I think your wife fits this profile.

She've very resentful of you. Of why you didn't change before. She is NOT going to be receptive to you educating her or telling her what to do. In her eyes, you are the bad guy. And she really feels horrible inside for what she is doing -- but her TAKER has taken over control. There is no reaching her at this point. Stop trying.

Let her go. Let her learn her mistakes the hard way.

You are not the person she will listen to at this point. You have the least credibility of ANYONE at this point. She blames you intensely for this whole situation. You are not the one to teach her!!!!

You have to stop trying to protect her from the consequences of her actions and choices. Let her go.

Dazed, I've followed your story since your first post. My God, you've done everything you could...far more than most men would even attempt.

Friend, it's time to pull the trigger on the P.I. and filing. I think you MUST begin to protect your daughter and yourself before it's too late. It gives me cold chills to think of that man around your young daughter. I think you have to start concentrating more on HER welfare than the increasingly remote possibility your marriage will survive. You and your daughter can recover from the breakup of the marriage. Other people have done it. But will your daughter be able to recover if this OM decides your daughter is just right for the next session with his "toys" you referred to and the abusive sex?

Pardner, I've been divorced from my first wife for 20+ years. FYI, we had two daughters that I dearly loved and love still. Divorce hurts really bad for a while, but it's no worse than what you're going through now. Also, without your so-called wife constantly around to give further pain, you WILL get better. I know. I did, and I think you're a stronger man than I was.

Well she is filing right now.
I met her at home for lunch break.
We set in opposite sides of the room for nearly five minutes quite. We just looked at each other. I removed my glasses and said, it your show.
WW set up and came over to me. Nealt down into me and we held each other so tight for five or ten minutes as WW balled like a baby.
I gently said, you can talk to me dear. Its okay, I'm here.
She said, Yes I will talk to you. I will. I'm so confused. Tears and snot running. Everyone is pulling me in half and I'm lost. Please help me... I'm so bad of a person. I've done so much how do I turn back now. Part of me wants to stay with you. I care about you and think about you all the time. My heart still belongs to you and it makes him so jelous. He don't understand why its so hard for me. I openly tell him I love you and it kills him.
I want to get in my car and drive away from everyone and just figure it out. I want to be a mommy and not hurt her any more. I'm killing her and I can't live with myself for this.
How can you forgive me now! You know about all the other bad things I have done and you still want me. How? I look at you and when you look at me I feel like trash and i dont deserve you.
She cried and cried. I spoke to her very soft and gentle. She said, she promised OM that she would file today at 3PM.
I told her to make sure she is doing this for herself and not him. Only do it if you believe in your heart 100% no regrets. She said I dont think I will ever feel that way. How do i know what to do. I said, ask him for time. If he loves you he will understand the pain your in. Look at all the time i have given you. You know i went to a lawyer and when he told me to only do it when I new we were ready.
I got to go for now. Be back ASAP....
Thank you all. I'm praying for my wife to be strong. OM is really got her twisted up..

Call your attorney immediately.
If I recall, it was important for you to file first.
Do not let her have the upper hand in this proceeding.
You cannot trust her anymore, she is under his control.
PROTECT YOUR DAUGHTER.

But you know that she IS doing this for him...and not for herself!!!

You know...I think that plan B or D is what you need now. She's confused, she is hurting...and she is STILL doing what OM wants, and not working on your M.

She needs to start REALLY feeling the consequences of her actions. Drop the plan B bomb on her NOW...but do it LOVINGLY...let her know just how much you love her and want your M to work...but that this is the only hope your love for her has left. I'd let her know EXACTLY what your requirements for reconciliation are...and then...make sure that she understands that you're NOT going to be there for her until she meets them. It's the only way she'll be forced to quit this...my money says that if you DON'T do this, she'll STILL be coming to you crying all the time even after a D is filed...or done!

What finally forced my wife to open her eyes was when she realized that I MEANT it when I told her I couldn't 'just be friends' with her. If she wanted to seperate for a year, I wasn't willing to just sit there and hold my breath...I told her to go ahead and file and we'd end the M instead. She realized then that she WAS going to lose me if she didn't do something...and that was when she REALLY made her choice.

I think you're rapidly approaching that same crux my friend...if not already there.

Dazed,

If you do get divorce papers do not overreact to what you read. Her attorney will twist around the events over the last few months to make you sound like the lunatic jealous husband. Just relax and let your attorney handle it. Obviously, do not move out and abide by any legal documents you receive. You will never win anything if you do not respect the law.

OM is jealous of YOU. She gave you his weak spot. His insecurity. Keep up the Plan A or go to Plan B, whatever, just promise us no more tirades, chasing her down, following her or him. Stop the L.B.'s completely. Turn it over to God. STOP flipping him off...instead give him a knowing grin...a grin that says I know you are a loser and I am going to beat you in the end...hug, touch or kiss your wife on the cheek in front of him if you can. Somehow find ways to infuriate him instead of vice versa. Then you become the easier, more attractive choice. The choice that at the moment is less controlling.

I hope she doesn't file. That would be another feather in your cap and another knock on OM's insecurities. Let her cake eat a few more days/weeks before your Plan B. Even though I think Plan B may be in order...I just don't believe you are personally prepared to do it yet.

Stay strong. There are candles burning all over the world for you. You are not alone.

Mr. Wondering

Thank you again.
Frank- The candle request is awesome of you to do. Thank you all for praying for me and my family.

I have a phone call tomorrow morning with Steve H.
Let's hope he has some good ideas for me that i can share with you all.

I have not had much time today to post all the things. You know me I like to write in detail. It's hard because of so much that has went on. Man, I have even found time to give a sales presentation today to a customer base of 45 people.
It's all a blur at times.

Here's some more stuff from earlier. I forgot to tell you all that last night I went into the family photo albums and dug out pictures of me and WW going all the way back to our high school prom. A picture of each year and with our daughter when she was just born to now. I placed about a dozen and a half of these pictures in the WW's make up room.
I had wrote her a note about believing in her and all three of us being happy together again. I had also placed this with the pictures but, after this morning when she yelled at me about everything I took that note and folded it up and tossed in on the floor. Inside the trash was the note from the day before.
When I talked to WW on the phone to set up our lunch meeting. She said whats with the pictures? I said, you kept saying we had no family, and me and you were never happy and there is no us. I wanted to remind you we did have a family, we were in love, and there was an us.
She did not say nothing for long while.
You know the rest of the details to the phone call.
So when i got home WW was out. Actually left me a note saying she would be right back. She had taken down all the pictures, removed the tape from them and they were all neatly placed on the kitchen counter. Remember last time she trashed all our group photos. This tells me she really looked at them and thought enough to save them. I went to throw my pop into the kitchen trash and seen the notes from the make up room. She not only read the wadded up note but retrieved yesterdays and read it again.
Fast forward.
After I said my thing about divorce and lawyers. She asked me for her wedding ring back. Surprised me. I just took it out of the jewelry box last night and held it in my pocket. I don't know why. When i went into the bathroom I seen the box and wanted to hold it.
She said, why did you take it again. I gave it to her. She said I like to know its safe and everyday I look at it. Don't take it again, well unless you want to.

When I took daughter to leadership, I seen WW's car parked down town. Could have been a lawyer office, but it was the same spot I caught her and OM in just yesterday. dunno
As luck would have it she pulled out just as i was coming back down the street from dropping off daughter. I think she seen me just as i pulled off from leadership so i'm okay there. She went the same route I took, and pulled into gas station for fuel. I pulled into the parking and went on in the store and bought her and i a pop and snack.
I went out gave the pop to WW and split the snack. She was not angry and accepted my offer and thanked me. She offered to pick up daughter from leadership and race her across town to swim team. Said, we will talk when I get home.
I will be leaving the office in a couple minutes. Really worried about getting papers.

Yes, she did reveal OM's weakness. I think the part in my PBL about us holding each other and all the loving stuff we have done and he being an accident would chap his _ss.
Her wanting to open up to me even at this point of the game was nice. Her just talking and telling me more suspect behavior about OM is good. I asked if he would get really really mad at her if she did not file today. She looked at me and frowned with tears. I could tell that I need not say no more about OM. Just let her do the talking was the main focus.
OWL- PEACHY-
Yes, you have a point. When the doors look like there closing she comes to me. When I reach out to her she runs to OM. This is way screwed up... I hate mind games.

There was some other good stuff said today over lunch. Also, at 2:15 when it was time for me to go back to work. She was still cring and said you are going to be late to work. I said, just a second. I called my secretary and told her i would be thirty minutes later. WW said why did you do that, your going to get fired because of me. I said, no. That's why I called them. Leaving you here all alone cring is just not right. You are more important to me. She held her arm up and gave me another hug. There was not much more talk. She had stopped cring and it appeared the fog was setting back in.

Thanks again everyone.

p.s.- Daisy
Your article about walkaway wifes is a perfect match to us. I have copied and printed this out on a seperate sheet of paper. Want to give it to wife. However, only wife. Not way ward wife. You know what I mean.

... candle from California. [okay, so it's a light bulb - ain't it the thought that counts?]
I also read the walkaway wife article. re-read it actually. The last several months I was trying to do things to keep my H content, and I refused to be baited into any kind of argument .... Yep, he was surprised. Fainted dead away onto his face. Not once, but twice, after he was served the papers. Stayed in bed a week, couldn't keep food down or in. Yep.

And I just wanted to crawl into bed next to him, put my arms around him, tell him it would be all right ... but i didn't. Because it will never be all right.

What I couldn't understand was, why was he so surprised? Hadn't I told him and told him, tried and tried, explained, wrote to him, tried educating him, even suggested he do internet search for Emotional Infidelity. None of it did any good.

Candles, candles, for you dazed. So your wife will wake up and find her way home to you again.

DAZED...

WOW!!! I have to say I'm surprised and the good... no GREAT few hours you've had..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I mean AFTER the LBs with her female friend.....

[color:"red"] My heart still belongs to you and it makes him so jelous. He don't understand why its so hard for me. I openly tell him I love you and it kills him.
[/color]
[color:"blue"] My heart still belongs to you and it makes him so jelous. He don't understand why its so hard for me. I openly tell him I love you and it kills him.
[/color]

[color:"green"] My heart still belongs to you and it makes him so jelous. He don't understand why its so hard for me. I openly tell him I love you and it kills him.
[/color]

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> THAT IS SOOO AWESOME DAZED!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> PLEASE DON'T THROW YOUR WIFE OUT...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> PLEASE DON'T DIVORCE YOUR WIFE....

You have been in Plan "A" for less than two months...and let's face it... yesterday should have set you WAAAYYYYYY back.
BUT IT DIDN'T!!!!

I know they mean well...BUT...I can't believe the MB'ers that keep telling you to go to B.... go to D....


One little setback... and they go running for the broom....
(no offense but THIS setback was because of YOUR LBs)

You're stronger than that DAZED... you have GOD working in your marriage... YOU CAN DO THIS!!

They say...NOTHING'S CHANGED.... what about what she said today???? That HER HEART BELONGS TO YOU????? When was the last time she said that?????

And if she REALLY does tell OM that she loves you.... THAT IS HUGE!!!

If you go back to when things were really good a couple of days ago I TRIED to warn you that the BAD side would pull back hard (Maybe your LB's the other day were MY FAULT....I put it in your head I'm sorry...)

And really... what happened the other day? She MAYBE was meeting OM? Well shut my mouth.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

THIS IS WHAT WSs DO!!!

But look at today!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think your Plan "A" has more affect than we could have hoped for because....she still is loving today!!!


And let me say you handled today like a superstar!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm SOOOOOOO glad you have a PC with Steve H. tomorrow.... be sure to have some stuff printed so you won't forget anything... LIKE WHAT SHE SAID TODAY!!!


I'm proud of you brother.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Stay on course.... you're doing great today... one day at a time.....

GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS (and candles <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) FRANK


P.S. BTW.... so what if she files (or filed today) what does that mean??? Maybe to keep OM's big mouth shut (not the best way but....she's so confused) It doesn't mean she can't change her mind right??

I have been reading this thread recently dazed and I think I got most of the picture. You have been taken on a rough ride, my friend, and it is one I know you want to get off soon somehow.

What exactly does she say when you tell her your concerns about the OM's "real" personality? This is something she cannot gloss over or get out of. There is someone out there (the OM's W) who is making some disturbing claims about him. Does she think they are not true? Does she think she can change him? Tell her to take a step back and look at everything. Tell her that she needs to begin getting MC from someone other than OM or other than someone who will tell her what they think she wants to hear. Tell her that she owes it to you to give the OM a break no matter how hard he begs/orders/insists against it to think about all the facts of what is going on. I don't know how she can do this. One way may be to send the D somewhere and take a weekend trip with NO cell phones. Find a B&B somewhere that doesn't even have phones in the rooms. IMO, if she is away from OM for even a short length of time like a couple of days, her attitude will change. He has control over her and you need to break that contact even for just a couple of days. When she comes to you crying about loving you/missing you/whatever, that is the time to ask her. I was in deep to my A. However, after a couple of days of NC, I was feeling a lot different towards OW. I think a lot of what you are saying sounds true. There is a psychological bondage going on here that only a separation can break. Nothing you say or do can convince her of anything while she is still being fed lines by the OM. You can't be nice enough to sway her back to you.

I know you are avoiding Plan B-ing her right now and maybe that is the best decision. However, I am just telling you a fact. The fact is that while she is in contact with the OM - unless he goes wacky psycho on her - you don't have a chance. It is not going to be easy convincing her to go cold turkey on OM. Almost as hard as telling a crack addict to stop. But it can be done and just like a crack addict, she can't wean herself off the OM. It has to be definitive.

Like I mentioned above, plan a getaway. Is there something that she LOVES to do? Hiking? Skiing? Plan a weekend or something revolving around that. Get separate rooms if that makes her more comfortable. Just make sure there are no phones in the rooms and make sure she doesn't bring her cell. I just can't help but think that a couple or three days away from OM will help her clear her head a little. It sure did with me.

You can't trust what is coming out of her mouth. All those "my heart is yours" or whatever are likely not exactly 100% true. I mean they can't be if she is desiring this OM. Don't let down any boundaries because of those things she says. BUT, the next time she starts in with them, ask her about going away. Just make sure it is something she can't say no to - like skiing or other activity!

Keep praying about this dazed. God will lead you if you ask Him to. I was talking to my W about that tonight. That I felt like I was wandering forever. Now, that I have added prayer into my life, I really feel like I am moving in a guided direction. Is your W someone who prays? Have you asked her to pray with you?

Just some ideas, buddy. Take them or leave them. I will be thinking about you and praying for you.

Always, though, protect yourself and your child.

SNT

HEY DAZED....

I just thought of something that might be important... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My Niece had an A on my Nephew..... She was madly in love with OM and actually went to a motel to meet him to leave before she changed her mind....I shared Plan "A" with him and all the other stuff here....

I now talk to BOTH of them and they are doing MUCH better... NC..... she's honest with him when she misses OM (rarer and rarer..) And she tells me EVERYTHING just before she tells him to be SURE he can handle it...then he talks to me about it after....

This is what I think is important.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

One of the times my Niece was asking me if she should tell my N something... she told me that she almost went to the OM because....
HE THREATENED TO TELL MY NEPHEW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE AFFAIR...

The Lies.....
The Plans....
(To move out of state and take her/their kids with them...)

All the terrible things she told OM about BS....
All the wonderful things she said to OM...

and the one she hadn't told BS yet....
ALL THE SEXUAL DETAILS.... WHERE... WHEN.....HOW.....HOW MANY TIMES...... WHAT SHE SAID.... WHAT SHE DID TO HIM....
EVERYTHING.....

My Niece told me that THAT alone almost made her "Follow Through" with the A plans because.....

She was SURE that once BS found out THESE THINGS... THEN.... HE WOULD LEAVE AND HATE HER FOREVER.......

Think about it DAZED.... what else does OM have...????
Your W seems to want to come home... BUT... like she said today.... HOW can you forgive her?.....WHY... would you forgive her..
Maybe what she's REALLY saying is...
IF YOU ONLY KNEW......YOU COULDN'T !!!

But she doesn't know what YOU know....that it isn't real and she is being controlled by a dark force that,... well,... you kind of made her vulnerable to....

The sex thing was hard for me... I was lucky my WW OM is 68 years old... so there wasn't much...
But of course it still hurt...the way I dealt with it was:
Neither of us were virgins when we met...
and although her sex was after we married and I have never cheated.... it still isn't something I have been the only one she shared that with anyway.... a little weak... but it helped...

So... MAYBE... when she brings up HOW COULD YOU FORGIVE ME.... if you GENTLY tell her that yes....you are an adult and you are fully aware of what has happened between her and OM..sex and all....

And what they actually DID do... was probably not half as bad as what BSs IMAGINE is happening....NOTHING YOU FIND OUT IN THE FUTURE WILL CHANGE HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT HER....

This WILL help if OM is trying to play that card... (which a lot of OPs use before D day to keep the A going)

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS....FRANK

DAZED,,,,

Did you talk to Steve yet?

Dazed.

Ugh. You've jumped all over the place from A to B back to A.
There needs to be a limit on this.

Plan A is supposed to last until you feel your love draining.

I personally believe there is also a point where the WS is no longer receptive to it. I think your wife is there. She is going to feel that your Plan A efforts are pressuring her.

She doesn't want you to be nice to her. Every nice gesture, romantic overture is going to be met with ANGER.

My BS gave me one of our wedding pictures in a new frame, that I was supposed to have at the office. I HATED IT! I stuffed it in a drawer.

What you did with the pictures would have angered me greatly. I would have clammed up just like your wife did. If you would have just said "these were nice memories" she might have listened and agreed. But by throwing her words ("you said we never had a family, and we were never happy...") back in her face and trying to prove her wrong -- UGH! GRRRR!

Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be married?

Stop being superior and flaunting your wisdom at her. Stop trying to educate her. Stop attacking OM -- she HAS to defend him then.

Everyone here tells you to Plan A as long as you can until you run out of energy. I think you need to get out of Plan A because you're starting to do damage with it. You're committing some subtle love-busters with trying to teach her.

I can't thank you all enough for all you help.

At this moment I think its all over for me. I just don't see her ever coming back. That article that Daisy posted is us exactly. My wife reached for me for so long she thinks there is just no way to be happy with me. I have was not there for her and she can'r forget that. My promises for a new life she just can't let in. OM and our bad history work to defect anything I'm doing. I feel there is just no way she is going to see the way home. Even if wants to come, it looks so painful and scary to her.
I have so much to tell you about last night. So much happened last night and this morning.

Last night she left a note saying she would be home at 9:30. While daughter was a practice I decided to go all out and make a setting for us to openly talk and yet be relaxed and even fun.
I cleaned the house, bought a bunch of new candles, a new DVD player, rented some movies including the "story of us", bought her favorite pop, set up the stereo with some good music. I showered and prepared as if it was a date. That was the atmosphere that I was wanting to create. One that the WW would feel good and comfortable being in. I daughter to bed ASAP. I set and waited and waited until 11PM when she came in. Holding a big manilla envolope. She looked around the room and was very surprised. When she came in she set very timid looking on the end of the couch cushion. I whispered for her to come over here as I held out my hand. She walked over not really knowing what to expect. I had her set down on my lap side ways and just held her. The entire time I spoke very softly with her and we set in and listened to music. She was very calm and relaxed being with me. I asked her about going with me and Daughter this week end out of town to daughters swim meet. She gave me a look of confusion. I repeated my offer adding that if you will get into trouble by going with me, then dont tell him. She began to cry. She said she would like to go. (I'm not counting on it).
I caressed her face, hands, and hair. We even shared a couple kisses.
We made some small talk. She thanked me for the house and the jesture with the candles. We moved to the couch because her back was now hurting. I rubbed her hair as we talked. There was no talk about the papers in the that envolope until.... While nearly as sleep she jumps up and says she has to go to the bathroom and put on her PJ's. That's where see used the cell phone to check in with OM.
I did not want to follow her to the door and spy so I did not. I found out this morning she was on the phone with him texting.
I will write to you the messages I found on the phone.

2:56 PM
WW reply to OM-
Yes, I'm gonna go... I'm really doing it... I'm going

12:52AM
WW wrote_
Soon my sweet baby it will be me and you, goodnite c u n my dreams.
OM wrote-
I wish you were here safe from him.
WW wrote-
I'm ok. gonna go 2 sleep now. He will sign the papers. thanks 4 all you have done. I love you. I'm okay.

When she came back out and laid on the couch there was not open and easy conversation. She says, so you know where I was at this afternoon? I was at a law office. Can we go over the papers in that folder. I don't want nothing from you at all. Just joint custody of daughter. No money at all. I said, why now WW. Why did it have to be today? Did you do this for him. She teared up. We talked about his control on her. I asked if he pushed her to file and if he had not pushed would she had done. She said, yes I did tell me it had to be today. It check up on me until I was at the office. I said, why are you letting him control you and set all the rules. He makes you call and check in with doesn't he. She said yes. I asked if he makes her spend lunch with him. She said yes. I asked if she liked being managed like this she shrugged her shoulders. I said, do you like being told what to do and given rules to do it by? She said, he wants me and my time. I like the attention and maybe its nice to know that some one thinks about me and wants me that much.
I asked so you would rather be controled that be given complete freedom that I gave you. She says he is 180 degrees the opposite from you. You did not care where I went and when or who with. He does...
I said, WW do you think he is going to better as time goes by? Why do you like being told what to do now? It makes me feel i count. I said, I know you think my opionin is bias and maybe don't trust me. Please see a IC ASAP. If I pay will you go. She agreed. Maybe just crap.
I asked her to give me the details on the papers.
Still not yelling or speaking loud. Even over the talk about OM. I asked that she come up to stairs and sleep our bed. She said she was fine. I told her I'm not asking. Come upstairs with me. She got up and got into bed. Even smiled at me and laughed when I made a comment about our little dog following her around the world. I rubbed her hair as see went to sleep.
When we woke we hugged several times. WW says, life is like the alarm clock. You know when it goes off and you just want to stay in bed and not go. I feel like that. I just want to stay here in bed with you and not face the world. I wish we could.
We held hands and I told her we can shut this alarm off. She said I no. Just because we have the papers don't mean I have to go through with it. I don't know if it what I want. I just can't keep hurting everyone and myself.
This talk just upsets me and I was not feeling so friendly so I suggested she get in the shower so I can get daughter ready for school. While in the shower, I found the phone messages. I was crushed. Destroyed. I knew that he was pushing her and control freak big time. She used to call me her sweet baby. That really hurt me.
I did not react. I wrote the messages down on a piece of paper in the office. Ran out the door and took daughter to school.
I balled like a baby just as soon as daughter was out the door. With tears still running down my face I opened the door to the house. There was WW balling like a baby and shaking life a leaf. Why do you do this to yourself. Why did you have to read my stuff and just beat yourself up. I'm so ashamed of myself. I'm so sorry. She ran around the house wildly cring. I set at the stairs crying.
After a few minutes she calmed down. Said, I'm sure you hate me now... I asked her if this is what she wants...100% honest no crap. She puts her head down and cried. I asked again, Do you really want a divorce or do you just see no way to overcome the pain. Honest. She said, I don't want to stop seeing him and the pain is to great between us. We are so broken you and I. Look at what I'm doing to you. I can't stop myself. I want to be a good mother but I'm not. I feel sad and worried about you. I feel sick for what I did to you and us. I think its easier for all of us to just move on.
I gave her the Daisy note to read. She read it all and said yes. I tried so hard for you. What so long. I can't get those feelings for you back anymore. I care about you. I'm sad for you. I love you inside and wish this all never happened. I can't go back either. I think its too late for me to have those feelings again for you.
I said, as long as OM is smoothering you will not. Why do you think he is so scared to let you come home to me. He must make you follow rules. He don't trust you. He knows he is a fraud and is so scared you will see through him and come back to me. If he new your love was right and pure he would give you the space to let you think and make your own descions. He knows he can't let you up for air because you might just breath again. I hope someday you see this.
We could have a new life together and love but, not while he is holding you down.
She says, I will have 60 days to decide what to do with those papers. (I didn't by this at all).

Got to run. Be back soon.

Stop this mess!

Dazed, while the runaway wife is true...my wife was one of them...and is home now.

Stop askign if she wants a divorce. If she wants it, let her go get it. You see, as long as you have pushed back and been loving, she has come runnign back to you. When you allowed her fog to be considered (ie the divorce), then she has been given tacet approval by you to continue.

Stop this nonsense. No talk of a divorce ever again unless YOU want a divorce. Who cares what she wants? She is in the fog...she doesnt know what she wants! You are trying to make sense out of nonsense.

In His arms.

Please Please listen to me. I think those are my posts you have been referring to. I was a "walk-away wife." I feel like your wife is my double. Go back and read the last few replies I've done to you.

Give her what she wants -- but on YOUR terms. Make her leave. Shut her out. Take those papers to your attorney. Do not allow her custody of daughter. If your state is like mine, they will take into consieration your daughters wishes because she is 12.

It also sounds to me like she has lied to him. His text says "safe with me." Sounds like she is portraying you as an abuser. Really important for you to act calmly, serenely.

She's being pressured by both of you. She's about to snap. Let her go snap on him. She's going to lose her home, her daughter, her lifestyle, and her view of herself. She's going to suffer greatly. There is NOTHING you can do about that.

Let her crash. Work on making yourself a safe place to return to. Lighthouse -- but from a distance.

Wow dazed...it's about time you got it ok?

Your WW is a master manipulator.

She is! A genius at it!

She is burning the candle from both ends as I told you...she's doing nothing except BLAME SHIFTING!

To OM to justify time spent with you eating cake, she paints YOU as the culprit...a mean, nasty and YES CONTROLLING angry BS...who follows her, DOES control her etc...

and to YOU, Dazed, she justifies time spent with OM eating cake, she paints HIM as the culprit...a controller, follows her, etc...

DO YOU GET IT NOW?

She is like a chameleon...she changes to fit whatever environment, or man, she is around.

I am really worried about her mental health. My xh is just like that. He can be anything and become anybody he wants in a spit second.

She knows what she wants. She is a consummate liar right now and you need to accept it.

You have done a good plan A. I have told you that over and over again.

But she is NOT responding any more positively to it. Instead, she brings home papers, goes to lawyer, etc. I agree with previous poster saying that it seems A is NOT having the effect you desire.

Hence my famous Einstein quote..."The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to be different."

Now it was a sweet gesture to make the home nice, buy candles, prepare night as if a "date"...

but come on! She is fogged out! It is almost darn near impossible to make an impression on a completely fogged out WS who can't wait to leave home to have a cake eating spree ok?

The whole instability from her...I do not see her as a "manipulated woman...sad, unsure of her marriage so she seeks out an om"....not at all. I see a woman with serious emotional issues...and her moral compass is totally askew. At some point in her life, she learned how to manipulate men. I don't know when. But it happened. And she's gotten quite good at it.

The real victims here are YOUR family. Sure the OM is a predator...but she does not in reality to appear to be the shrinking violet type either...she is an ACTIVE participant in this affair and YOU need to accept it!

Call the Harleys. I am sticking to the point that if you want her to rethink her reality...the truth of what is really happening here, she has to see what is going to happen..and deal with it.

I absolutely DETEST HER WORDS TO YOU! Words where she said "well I have six months to make up my mind" regarding the divorce...aka, she will file, you'll get the divorce, and she thinks she CAN CONTINUE TO EAT CAKE FOR SIX MORE MONTHS "trying-out the Om" and doing a trial marriage with him while you sit back and fall into emotional ruin...your daughter is in great pain...and she just holds all the cards...she is saying that If she wants to come home to you both, then she will do it when she feels like it if ever.

That is NOT a WS who is close at all to ending an affair.

Please get real. We are indeed praying for you. But also ask God right now to impart wisdom upon you ok?

You're doing same thing over and over ...no change...it's getting worse in fact! She says whatever YOU WANT TO HEAR...so she can get off the hook...she is doing same thing to Om. She will end up making you both crazy...but what is the one thing we don't want you to do?

Become so emotionally hurt as a result of this you lose all respect and love for her.

You're also doing bigger love busters too.. two in 2 weeks to be exact..

B needs to be addressed immediately.

I am really getting weary of saying the same things as I watch this happen. It hurts those who want to help. Like my patients...if they don't take their medicines how can they ever manage the disease processes they are battling?

Please...be one who "gets it" know! You can still save the marriage. It is NOT too late!

But if you do not see the forest for the trees, something worse is going to be the result.

Lexxxy-
Yes- the walk away wife story is yours.

She has filed for a divorce. I have the papers.

Just to add to Peachy's train of thought.

You are becoming fogged. You are latching on to this idea that she has become brainwashed and has no control over her actions. I suppose that makes it easier for you to swallow that she is leaving you. Its not her fault -- its that evil OM. If its not her fault, then you can go on Plan A'ing her and wanting her back.

You think that if you keep talking -- you're gonna somehow get through to her. You don't have that power Dazed. She needs to end this because of her own realizations, not yours.

Go back and look at that text exchange. She is a willing and enthusiastic participant in destroying your marriage. Protect yourself from her.