ForeverHers, I originally posted the following message to you on ScaredinGA's thread, but since I don’t want to threadjack her thread any further than it already has been threadjacked, I decided to delete it there and send it to you in this new post:

ForeverHers, as a Christian I know what the Bible says about homosexuality.

How I view it, a homosexual lifestyle is a sin but NOT the sexual orientation itself. Therefore IMHO homosexual orientation/feelings ONLY become a sin when such people ACT on those feelings.

For the above reason I have much empathy and compassion for Christians who are homosexual and want to live a God-feared life, but struggle greatly because of their sexual orientation... Sexual orientation can have many origins, one of which I believe can have a genetic origin and/or negative experiences from childhood like sexual abuse, etc.

Again, I have empathy and compassion for people who can’t help or change their sexual orientation...and surpress these feelings so that they can be accepted by the church and society. And I belief God/Jesus have the same compassion/sympathy for them. Do YOU have empathy and compassion for them ForeverHers?

I know there are many good, Christian people on this earth who have severe internal suffering and feelings of guilt & shame because of their sexual orientation. I think it must be an ENORMOUS cross for those people to carry… Don’t you think? Can you just imagine how difficult it must be for a homosexual Christian to live a single, lonely and celibate life – without a loving, nurturing & intimate partner by their side and to share their lives with – because of their sexual orientation and because they don’t want to give into a homosexual lifestyle?

And even if such people become too tempted or weak and give into the homosexual lifestyle with one committed partner, it’s between them and God and I’m not in a position to judge them at all because you can’t judge until you have walked in the same shoes.

Only God knows what is truly going on in the the heart, life and mind of such a person and only He will decide if the person will receive eternal life or not... Our job is to love the person although we don't have to accept/approve his/her lifestyle. Jesus said: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner". And this includes having emphathy and compassion for other's (including all their faults & weaknesses).

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet, with all due respect, your question to me, itself, violates your claim of "not being able to judge."

So where do you want to draw the line on "judging?" How do you want to define "judging?"

Your post, though replete with your own opinions and judgments and assumptions about me DOES ask a serious question or two, and as a sister in Christ I will take the time to give you a cogent response.

But, so you don't have to wait, here's the "Cliff notes" version....Yes, I have sympathy and compassion for them as I do for ANYONE who is a CHRISTIAN and either caught up themselves in the snares of sin or is a victim of sin or natural disasters in a world that HAS evil in it and Satan roaming it "seeking whom he may devour."

Your premise of not being able to "Form an opinion or 'judgment' without personally having experienced the condition" is a FALSE premise. Think about the ramifications of your premise for a minute. Do you have to BE a murderer, or a victim of rape, to KNOW that they are bad on the testimony of those who HAVE "been there, done that" and to JUDGE those behaviors to be sinful and bad and NOT in accord with God's commands as clearly revealed in Scripture?

Does a "jury of peers" NOT have the right and obligation to "judge" according to the laws even though none of the jurors has personally "walked in the same shoes" as the offender?

God Bless.

ForeverHers, when you read the above words in it's entire context you will see I'm was talking about judging a PERSON according to his sexual orientation and the weaknesses/temptations they experience as a result of that. I was NOT talking about crimes (stealing, murder, rape etc.) people commit here on earth - it's irrelative. OF COURSE those things are ENTIRELY different issues.

Sexual orientation (which is NOT always a choice) is a very sensitive issue and on the other thread your approach didn't really seem emphatetic and compassionate towards people who suffer with this. This is why I've asked you the question. You seemed to think that sexual orientation is a choice because you've said to the poster on the other thread that a Christian counsellor needs to address her H's homosexual feelings as well. The thing is, his feelings can't be changed, only his actions. Maybe I've made the wrong assumption and if I did I'm sorry.

And nowhere in my posts have a made opinions, judgments and assumptions about you. I have just asked you some honest questions and gave you my opinion on the subject. That's all. I don't understand why my post triggered so much anger in you. As a siter in Christ, I thought I could discuss this with you in a civil way because your responses on the other thread have raised some serious concerns in me.

FH, as a Christian you are also suppose to have symphathy and compassion for people who are non-Christians - not JUST Christians. Jesus instructed us to love ALL PEOPLE...including our enemy. That's why he said "Hate the sin but love the sinner". This is the only way you can lead another person to God and help him/her to receive eternal life.

***MOVED FROM OTHER THREAD BY TM***

I really think KaylaAndy said it best on the other thread...

Assuming the "born" side of the arguement is 100% true...isn't it just the same as any other genetic-linked compulsion? Be it OCD, any number of phobias, or even schizophrenia. Remeber "A Beautiful Mind," where John Nash knew he could never rid himself of his condition, yet he could resist giving himself over fully to the disease. He chose to fight.

Before everyone here piles on me...NO, I am not suggesting that homosexuality/bisexuality be re-listed as a disorder in the DSM-IV...nor am I suggesting that it is an illness. But it is a condition, or a desire. All of us face our own personal set of challenges in our life. And those of us who are Christians can chose to resist that what the Bible teaches as wrong, or we can chose to give in and embrace such things. God knows our struggles, and will give us the necessary strength to follow the right path if we ask.

My personal belief on the born v. bred, and I speak from a fairly knowledgeable position, is that both play a role in the development of our sexuality.

But in the end, the ultimate choice lies with us. We have a beautiful thing...it is called free will.

---------------

If we could put aside our cultural and societal prejudices for a moment, doesn't this boil down to the fact that Scared's WH was kissing ANOTHER HUMAN BEING? And all of us would agree that is wrong. I think this issue should be addressed first, because if her WH has no interest in remaining married to her, it doesn't matter if he is cheating with a man, a woman, or even a dog!

Let's say my WW was sleeping with 3 different men at once while we are married...shouldn't I address the fact that she is being unfaithful to me first, then deal with the fact that she is having premarital sex promiscuously?

I know there are those who will refer me to Harley's comments on addiction, and how nothing can be done until that problem is solved. But to that I say the most important part of controlling ANY desire, whether you label it addiction, compulsion, or tendency...is to WANT to change. If there is no desire to fight what we believe for ourselves to be right, then we will be forever unhappy and lost.

I am not in favor of moral relativism of any sort, however, I also do not believe that it is my place to stand up and tell you you better do this or that. I will tell you what I believe, and why I believe it...and also what I believe to be the consequences of acting apart from what is in my personal rule book, aka the bible.

Just because moral absolutes exist, doesn't mean any of us must follow them...we still ultimately choose.



TM

TM - Well said...

Can I express another example? Having worked quite a bit with troubled youth, it frequently strikes me that these troubled youth will very likely be turning into troubled adults. Many of them will end up in jail as criminals.

Does the fact that we can trace their roots back to a troubled past relinquish their guilt in their crimes? Not at all...but, when we as Christians can see beyond the present, into the past, we can begin to have a glimmer of understanding and compassion. However, the consequences of their actions still must be "just" and "fair", but we don't have to stand in line to throw the stones....

Georgia

No, I don’t think it’s the same… Sexuality is a basic human instinct and homosexual people who don't/can’t express their sexuality towards their own sex because of their faith, religion or whatever, basically have to suppress their sexuality because there is no other place they can canalize their sexual energy too. Of course homosexual people can choose to fight their feelings, but I just think it must be an ENRMOUS internal struggle to them because the suppressing of sexuality in itself is unnatural and goes against human nature. God created all people as sexual beings.

This is true…but again, I think homosexuality must be an ENORMOUS cross for Christian people to carry. Something I think no one will be able to understand until they have walked in the same shoes…

I think homosexuality is much more complex than the example of the premarital sex promiscuously above… The problem is, many homosexual people can’t and don’t express their homosexual feelings because of their religion, beliefs, guilt, shame and fear to be rejected by God, church and society. As a result many of them want to appear ‘normal’ and enter marriages in spite of their sexual orientation. Many do this because they think marriage will ‘cure’ their ‘condition’ and hide it from the world… And sadly this doesn’t happen and many years later all this suppressed feelings bottled out and the homosexual spouse fail to hide his/her sexual orientation forever. This is a very complex situation and I think this is probably what happened in Scared’s WH’s case. Of course it was wrong and betraying behavior to kiss another man, but I think in his case his homosexuality is the MAIN problem and not the betrayal itself.

Again, homosexual orientation is much more complex than this… You can’t change something which CAN’T be changed… And sexual orientation is one of those things which can’t be changed if the origin of it is genetic and deep settled (except if you start to change the WHOLE make-up of the person e.g. physically, emotionally, mentally etc. which I think is almost impossible.) It is the same as expecting a heterosexual person to become homosexually orientated. It doesn’t work this way.

Suzet, once again I am too tired, and perhaps even a little angry(not with you but with several others), to respond properly to your post. So I just quoted this small piece to give you a brief response, and acknowledgment that I AM reading what you are posting.

Suzet, I do have some sympathy and compassion for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Christians, in following the biblical principle of "love thy neighbor." ScaredinGA IS a Christian, by her admission and I am NOT interested in "leading her to Christ," she is already there.

Please don't overlook what the Scripture also has to say about what is "expected" from those who profess belief in Christ AND what we are expected to do, including Matthew 18:15-20 and "church discipline." The OBJECT of all "correction and confrontation" in love is the RESTORATION of fellowship with God and with fellow believers. There can be NO "restoration" or "fellowship" with unbelievers, they are NOT part of the covenant of salvation through Christ.

Suz, in my case, 3.5 years ago I was "willing" to divorce my wife even though I intensely loved her and hated her sin of adultery at the same time. I made it clear to her then, and it holds true for me and all of us likewise, that there can BE no restoration of a Christian marriage without the sinner FIRST repenting of his/her sin to God and then seeking forgiveness and restoration. I told my wife that I would "go to my grave loving her," but I would not live with her while she was in open and willful rebellion against God and the Marriage Covenant. If that is "too tough" a stance, then I stand guilty and stand ready for a flogging.

Also, I would submit that there are some nonbelievers who are "so far gone" in the hardness of their hearts that no amount of "love and compassion" on our part will help. It IS ultimately up to God, not us, to draw someone to God and soften their hearts. It is OUR JOB to "stand for God" and to "be ready to answer someone who inquires WHY we believe what we believe." They don't have to "like" or "accept" the answer we give, but that's no different that it ever has been for God, so why should we expect anything different when we choose to take a stand FOR God instead of "man's way?"

Some folks, as in most Pedophiles, are "lost" in their sin and not "rehabilitative" by even the most expert psychiatrist. Do I "love" that sort of person? In a way I do, in the same sense that God "so loved the world" and wants ALL to choose Christ and live. But the REALITY is that the "way" is only through the "narrow gate" of Christ no matter how much I "hate the sin and love the sinner." That is why we must EACH repent (that is, choose to "turn away" and "forsake" our desire to sin) and choose to follow God in humble obedience to HIS commands, no matter what we are feeling.

Do I "love" my wife's ex-OM? In the same biblical sense as with the above Pedophile. He is unrepentant and an unbeliever. He will "answer to God," not me (at least I choose not to sue him, North Carolina laws about 'alienation of affection' have teeth in them). But I am NOT going to try to "lead him to Christ." I leave that in God's hands, and as much as (as a human MAN) I'd like to see him "rot in hades" for the pain and suffering his selfishness has visited upon my family, I surrender his ultimate fate to God. If he should become a believer at some point and come seeking my forgiveness, I would forgive him because God has commaned it of me because of what God has forgiven me, NOT because I "feel like" forgiving him. I would forgive out of obedience, not out of emotional response.

God bless.

Mr. Wondering and I, like many other Christians I suspect, were discussing ScaredinGA's thread last night...Here is our fear...Because of all of the seemingly radical Christian debate that took place on her thread, look at who she reached out to...an atheist. As Christians, we should never allow someone, who is a declared non-believer, to seem the more compassionate and caring among us...I believe that Satan is thrilled that we did this, and I am ashamed and repentant for ANY part that I may have played in it in the one post that I did choose to enter. The Bible says, "to those who much is given, much is expected", and I feel like we Christians fell quite short there. It is my hope that we all will spend a great deal of time in prayer for ScaredinGA that she will allow herself to follow God's will regarding her situation, and that she is able to seek support and guidance on this forum without feeling attacked...

Just my .02...


Mrs. Wondering


P.S. Suzet, I agree with your take on homosexuality completely...

I am sorry to have to disagree with you, Suzet...but I must.

From a strictly secular point of view, you are selling the power of the mind way short. Something I learned from my very good friend I met while living in CA, and she is dangerously intelligent, probably one of the most insightful, analytical people I have ever known...

"Perception is reality..." Or more specifically "OUR perception creates OUR OWN reality..."

By this I mean that we can create, through sheer desire, a different reality, or our world-view is entirely changeable, subject to the force of our will, whether consciously or sub-consciously.




Are you trying to tell me that a mind that can fracture into many seperate and completely distinct "individuals" in an attempt to handle radical, horrific abuse...cannot change their geneticly predisposed inclinations?

Are you trying to tell me that a mind that can take control of normal autonomic processes, and put them into such a state of meditation as to survive in an airtight room for hours on end...cannot change their geneticl predisposed inclinations?

Are you trying to tell me that a mind that can release the right neurotransmitters and other chemicals that allow the body to lift a car that has pinned a loved one in an accident...cannot change their geneticly predisposed inclinations?





These are just a few of the amazing, and often inexplicable abilities of our minds...keeping in mind (pun intended) that we use a very small portion of our brain even in today's age of knowledge and education.

I don't think we can grasp what the limits of the mind even ARE. I think to chalk it up to essentially "my genetics made me do it..." is an utter cop out.



And this is not even going into we tiny-brained humans attempting to put limits on the abilities of God. How can we even try to establish boundaries for something so above and beyond our ability to concieve as God, when we can't truly grasp a simple concept like the infiniteness of the universe? Just try to grasp the concept for a moment, "infinite"... It makes your head hurt, don't it? And we want to put limits on God? Seems awfully presumptuous of us little humans, no?


Suzet, I do respect your opinion, and think you have given some great advice in the past...I hope you don't misconstrue this as a personal attack...it was not intended a such...


TM

(((FH))), thanks for your thorough response on the last piece of my second post. I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate the time you’ve taken to explain your POV.

Regarding the subject on homosexuality - please read my response to TravellinMan on this thread to have a better understanding of my opinion on this. You’re welcome to post your thoughts too and give your opinion on what I’ve posted when you feel less tired! I’m sorry I’ve catch you on a ‘bad day’… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I value your input and I didn’t mean to add to your negative feelings with my original post... I think your contributions to these boards are very valuable and I have much respect for you – but you know this by now. And as people in Christ I also think it’s okay for Christians to sometimes differ on subjects and listen to each others opinions and perceptions… Thanks for the time you’ve took to ‘listen’ to mine FH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Travellinman, IMO homosexuality and the impossibility to change sexual orientation it is NOT about “power of mind”. It has nothing to do with that. People can’t change their sexual orientation with “mind power”. If this was true homosexuals could easily change themselves to heterosexuals and then there won’t be people on this earth who are homosexually orientated because who wants to be a person who are rejected by churches and society in general?

TM, I understand what you’re trying to prove to me with your post, but I don’t buy it in this regard of sexual orientation. I have just heard and read of too many homosexual people who live an unhappy and difficult life because of their sexual orientation… People who DON’T want to be homosexual, but can’t help it…and try to fight those homosexual instincts with all they can… Because they fear God and want to be accepted by churches and society.

I do believe God can work miracles and yes He can change ANYTHING if He wants to, but it doesn’t say he WILL. In the Bible God says: ”Take your cross and follow me”. So God won’t necessarily take the cross away…

I never suggested that it was easy...nor did I suggest that every homosexual (or compulsive gambler, or schizophrenic, or whatever) had it within them to do it. I merely stated it is possible, as evidenced by those who have fought their natural (whether inborn, taught, or whatever) inclinations, and mastered them.

To allow that we are powerless victims walking through life, generally becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is not to say that anyone with an affliction/inclination/tendency should be castigated or ridiculed for being too weak to stand up and fight for their deepest held beliefs...nor should they be offhandedly excused and given no encouragement to follow the path that they believe to be the righteous one.

Does that make sense?

I am mostly refering to those that profess to be Christians and have such issues. We, as Christians, as friends, heck, as human beings...should offer a hand up and encouragement to help those who wish to change their situation, instead of telling them that they cannot do anything about it, so they may as well accept it and embrace it.

My above statement does not encompass those who have no desire or drive to change any of their present situation. I am not recommending that we ever force any kind of change on any other person.


As is said here frequently, "You cannot change someone else, you can only change yourself..."


There is a fine line between accepting a given behavior, and condoning it. Therein lies the challege before us, as Christians, in our everyday lives, our attitudes, and our words...accept and encourage others to become better people. And share with them what, in our view, that entails...IF THEY WISH TO KNOW. The ultimate decision will always reside with the individual.


Isn't this fun?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TM

"As Christians, we should never allow someone, who is a declared non-believer, to seem the more compassionate and caring among us...I believe that Satan is thrilled that we did this, and I am ashamed and repentant for ANY part that I may have played in it in the one post that I did choose to enter."


Mrs Wondering that is scary stuff. I have realised now why I never chose to post here before and this will be my very last post on this site. It's a Christian based forum and I accept that. As I said in my first post, it's one of the reasons I've been a lurker so long. What scares me in your post is such total ignorance and lack of understanding regarding my character as an atheist. Why oh why should an atheist not be able to show more compassion and understanding then a Christian ? Do Christians have a monopoly on these values ? And what has Satan got to do with it ? I don't blame you for feeling this way, it's down to your conditioning, but as an atheist I can honestly tell you that I am more Christian in how I live my life than many self proclaimed Christians I know. I try to live by most of the same rules, only for me they're self imposed which makes them more meaningful. I try not to wrong or hurt other people and I'm sorry when I do, I try to forgive people who wrong me, I don't steal, I don't commit adultery and so on and so on. I also choose not to believe that Jesus was the son of God. I also choose not to believe in the existence of God. That doesn't make me a bad person, that doesn't mean I have no morals, that doesn't mean I don't know right from wrong, it just means I'm responsable for my actions, for my shortcomings and for my mistakes. But I don't answer to a higher being. I answer to me and the people around me who can be affected by my actions, my family, my friends, my colleagues etc. We're all just trying to get along in this world, trying to better ourselves and become good people. Some choose Christianity to help them, some are just conditioned to believe that way and without challenging it they know no different. Some choose Judaism, some choose the Muslim faith. Each to their own. I'm going to bow out now and would ask the moderator to delete my account. I will continue to lurk and if ScaredinGA wants help, or just someone to talk to I'm there. I also have some experience that may help her in the long run. I will also continue to use the MB principals to help myself and my partner work together towards a better relationship and one that lasts as long as we do however long that may be.

Good luck to everyone on here in finding the same thing.

When a woman has an abortion - the people comdemming her at the front doors, saying she is killing her baby, guilting her, shaming her - are not the christians. The real christians are at the back door, comforting her, helping her find God as obviously she had lost God. They are they to show her that God can forgive her and love her. They are not there to condemn or shame or judge her.

In this case homosexuality. As Christians we do not agree with it and know it is wrong. But we are also told not to judge, so condemming someone for being a homosexual is not very Christian. How about helping them come to Christ - find their identity, comfort them, be kind to them...show them what Christianity REALLY is. And if they choose otherwise - then we are kind, respectful of their choice.

God will judge us all one day - and some of us Christians will be harshly judged for our treatment of others. What kind of Christian are you?

i have a small question to ask all of you who believe your sexual orientation is a choice.....

i know this probably happened when you were young, but......it was also a huge life choice.....so......



please, in detail, describe to me the day, hour, minute, and circumstances of when you chose? oh, come on now, it really shouldnt be that hard. think of all the other life choices you've made.....finding the "one", the day you or he proposed.....your wedding....the day you decided to become parents.....

this is a major life choice as are all the others i listed....i remember all the details of the other days VERY clearly...however i have no idea what, when, or why, i chose to love men......i just do. it was always there in me.....

so humor me and relive this life changing choice for me and re-count it for us......

I actually know someone who knows when they chose. He watched his father beat the crap out of his mother and there in that moment of time he decided that he did not want to be male in nature, but rejected what was male about him. When he did he realized that he then longed for someone male not like his father who could love him and treat him with respect and love and tenderness. As he grew that is what he sought out in males because he never found it in his father and so deperately wanted it.

The Wonderings - I fully understand what you were trying to say and it is partly the reason behind the admonition to "not" take a fellow believer to court.

But you also have to be careful to NOT extend that to an "unwillingness" to stand for God regardless of what others might think. Jesus did not take such a "Casper Milktoast" sort of role when the issues were in defiance of, and disobedience to, God's clear commands and teaching.

Jesus "cleared the temple," and he "took on" the Pharisses in open public debate. "He who has ears, let him listen," was Jesus' approach to "confrontation."

I'll bet that the members of the accusatory mob didn't like for one minute being called a sinner either when Jesus told them, "let the one who is without sin cast the first stone."

Understand, that confrontation in love IS what Jesus brought and taught. He made it clear that he came to "divide" those who would be "For Him" from those who would be "against Him." Those "not willing" to take the heat were cautioned about "following Him."

God bless.

Okay, Suzet, let’s see if I’ve calmed down enough to have a serious and deliberative discussion with you on a subject that has obviously touched a sensitive nerve in you.

I’ll begin with returning to your first post and then go on from there.


Okay, let’s take this out of “specifics” of homosexuality for a minute and into the realm of “sin in general.” Let’s talk first about Adultery. For purposes of this talk, let’s assume we are talking about a married person, be they Christian or otherwise.

First, the word “Adultery” is given a definition by God, society, or both God and society. According to Christian principles that date back to the Garden of Eden, marriage is between, and for, ONE man and ONE woman, exclusively. Adultery is “unfaithfulness” by a married person, regardless of whether or not the “partner” is same sex or opposite sex. “Forsaking ALL others” is the operative thought with respect to the covenant of marriage. God make HIS position crystal clear when He gave Moses the 10 Commandments for HIS people, the Israelites. Commandment 7: Thou shalt NOT commit adultery. Jesus further clarified this so that those who thought they had not PHYSICALLY had sex outside of marriage were still “okay” and somehow “better than” those who had committed the actual act (punishable by death prior to Jesus’ advent). If you mentally “lust after” someone other than your spouse you have “committed adultery” in your heart.

You seem to be confusing temptation of, or to, sin, with the actual commission of a sin. Understand that we are ALL born sinners, guilty of sin and separated from God. It matters not if one believes we are born with sin or “acquire” sin as we go along in life, the FACT is that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

For those who have NOT accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, it matters little whether or not they are “born” with sin and a proclivity to sin. They ARE lost (spiritually and eternally) and nothing we can do will change that. Only God can change that. We (Christians) CAN model Christ through our life, but we, too, still live in a “sin-natured body and in a sin-driven world). So even the “best of us will likely stumble and fall from that “model and walk” from time to time. We DO NOT set ourselves up as the model, we profess Christ as the model. We struggle, as did Paul, knowing and wanting to do what is right and godly and struggling against “wanting in the flesh” to do what is wrong. We try to CHOOSE to subjugate the body and our fleshly thoughts to God and to DO God’s will, not our own will and desires when they are in opposition to God.

“Homosexual orientation,” as you called it, is NOT in and of itself, a “sin.” But giving into those feelings, in direct opposition to what God has commanded and warned us NOT to do, whether it is mentally “lusting after” or physically engaging in, IS a sin. If someone “by nature” is a nymphomaniac, the desire for sex “all the time” is NOT itself a sin. ACTING on the “feeling” is.

That leads us to the next point of discussion. You stated:


I do NOT have to be a homosexual, or an adulterer, or a thief, or any other type of sin, to KNOW it is a sin if God has said it is. This “homosexual lifestyle” you are arguing for is the current “debate du jour” in the States to REDEFINE marriage and to say that a homosexual couple who has chosen to restrict their sin (yes, I know, that’s “Christian judgmentalism”) to each other is the same thing as the marriage that was established and ordained by God in the Garden of Eden. SANS God, and pro-anything goes, such an argument on behalf of homosexual “marriage’ would probably make sense, because we would all be defining “marriage” and “right and wrong” however we felt like defining it at the moment, with no immutable Standard of righteousness to go by. It truly would be a situation of “if it feels, good do it!”

But “man shall not lie with man as with a woman, it is an abomination.” Either we “take God at His word, or we don’t.” Non-Christians don’t take the “Christian” God at His revealed Word in the Word of God, that’s a given. Atheists don’t take God at all, so not taking any “Word of God” is easy for them.

Suzet, God’s word is “God’s Law.” Just as in our society, we are a “Nation of Laws,” we face anarchy and chaos if everyone gets to decide “which laws” they “like” and which laws they “don’t like,” which laws they will “obey” and which laws they “don’t feel like obeying.” God has placed His laws into existence FOR our benefit, just as society places laws into place for our collective benefit. Some, like “thou shalt not murder” have universal appeal and application. For most, so does “thou shalt not commit adultery.” But to “excuse” a homosexual sexual “couple” for CHOOSING to live in direct and open rebellion to God’s command regarding sexuality and marriage simply because they choose to “restrict” their sinning to each other “exclusively” is wrong. At the very least is “teaches” others that disobedience to God’s commands is “okay” and “no big thing.”

I am quite sure, even though it’s just an opinion, that there were probably many homosexual couples in Sodom and Gomorrah who were “exclusive” to each other, as well as other who ascribed to the San Francisco-esque “bathhouse” idea of casual sex and indiscriminate sex with as many other partners as possible. But God could not find even 10 “righteous souls” in those cities and saved only Lot and his family. The rest, God “judged.”


I know what you were talking about. But it IS exactly the same thing as any other “potential to sin.” It begins with a thought…it is how we respond to the “thought” that determines whether the thought will be “another temptation in our life” or indulged and allowed to become a sin in “thought or deed.” You might, for example, be in financial hardship at home, perhaps have been as long as you can remember, and you find yourself in a position to alleviate that hardship, the desire for MONEY, by taking some from where you work because “no one but me and “God” will ever know.” It is NOT the feeling, it is giving into the feeling that leads to sin. Homosexuals, along with thieves, murderers, adulterers, liars, bigots, etc., will BE in heaven IF they have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ.

Yes, Suzet, they may continue to struggle with their “sin nature” all their lives. That’s no different in that respect than what we all struggle with…OUR sin nature.

Perhaps it will help to clarify this point if I use my own recovery as an example. My wife has “slipped” many times in the past 3.5 years and had contact with her OM. Each “slip,” regardless of reason, was a willful and deliberate choice she made when faced with the temptation to “contact or not to contact.” The sin was against God and against me. But God places the “onus” on me that if a fellow believer sins against me “seventy times seven times” and repents, I am to forgive AS God has forgiven me and continues to forgive me when I fail and sin.

The “sin nature” will be with us until we die. But God gave us Free Will to be able to CHOOSE and not just “act on instinct” the way animals do. It is our CHOICES that God will hold us accountable for, beginning with our choice “for or against” Jesus Christ.


Suz, “Christianity” is a “come as you are party,” if you’ll forgive the analogy. God DOES NOT ask us to first become “holy” and then come to Him. He tells us to come to in whatever condition we are in THROUGH Christ, and that through the lifelong process of Sanctification, will help us to conform our lives to more and more “Christ-likeness.”

” your approach didn't really seem emphatetic and compassionate towards people who suffer with this.”

I may not be the most “empathetic or compassionate” person toward someone (particularly a profession Christian) engaging in willful sin against God’s commands. Should I be “empathetic and compassionate” toward my wife while she is in throes of adultery with another man, or should I do whatever I can to help her “wake up and see she is sinning against God, let alone against me?” I do tend toward the more analytical and “right side” of the brain,. maybe sometimes even a “bull in a china shop” sort of thing. I am empathetic and compassionate toward anyone, with any proclivity that they are struggling with, who is TRYING to be obedient to God because they are a Christian. I, likewise, have little patience and compassion for someone who wants to “justify” continuing to sin and blame someone, or something, else, ala “the devil made me do it.”

CHANGE requires the necessity of “conflict.” Until there is “conflict” there is no motivation to change. This where things like “silence connotes acceptance and agreement” comes into play. “Don’t judge” is another attempt to silence “conflict” that might call into question the “rightness or wrongness” of what someone is CHOOSING, regardless of the “justifications.”

Allow me, at this point, to repeat what I said previously in response to what you wrote here:


I do have some sympathy and compassion for all people, regardless of whether or not they are Christians, in following the biblical principle of "love thy neighbor." ScaredinGA IS a Christian, by her admission and I am NOT interested in "leading her to Christ," she is already there.

Please don't overlook what the Scripture also has to say about what is "expected" from those who profess belief in Christ AND what we are expected to do, including Matthew 18:15-20 and "church discipline." The OBJECT of all "correction and confrontation" in love is the RESTORATION of fellowship with God and with fellow believers. There can be NO "restoration" or "fellowship" with unbelievers, they are NOT part of the covenant of salvation through Christ.

Suzet, in my case, 3.5 years ago I was "willing" to divorce my wife even though I intensely loved her and hated her sin of adultery at the same time. I made it clear to her then, and it holds true for me and all of us likewise, that there can BE no restoration of a Christian marriage without the sinner FIRST repenting of his/her sin to God and then seeking forgiveness and restoration. I told my wife that I would "go to my grave loving her," but I would not live with her while she was in open and willful rebellion against God and the Marriage Covenant. If that is "too tough" a stance, then I stand guilty and stand ready for a flogging.

Also, I would submit that there are some nonbelievers who are "so far gone" in the hardness of their hearts that no amount of "love and compassion" on our part will help. It IS ultimately up to God, not us, to draw someone to God and soften his or her hearts. It is OUR JOB to "stand for God" and to "be ready to answer someone who inquires WHY we believe what we believe." They don't have to "like" or "accept" the answer we give, but that's no different that it ever has been for God, so why should we expect anything different when we choose to take a stand FOR God instead of "man's way?"

Some folks, as in most Pedophiles, are "lost" in their sin and not "rehabilitative" by even the most expert psychiatrist. Do I "love" that sort of person? In a way I do, in the same sense that God "so loved the world" and wants ALL to choose Christ and live. But the REALITY is that the "way" is only through the "narrow gate" of Christ no matter how much I "hate the sin and love the sinner." That is why we must EACH repent (that is, choose to "turn away" and "forsake" our desire to sin) and choose to follow God in humble obedience to HIS commands, no matter what we are feeling.

Do I "love" my wife's ex-OM? In the same biblical sense as with the above example of a Pedophile. He is unrepentant and an unbeliever. He will "answer to God," not me (at least I choose not to sue him, North Carolina laws about 'alienation of affection' have teeth in them). But I am NOT going to try to "lead him to Christ." I leave that in God's hands, and as much as (as a human MAN) I'd like to see him "rot in Hades" for the pain and suffering his selfishness has visited upon my family, I surrender his ultimate fate to God. If he should become a believer at some point and come seeking my forgiveness, I would forgive him because God has commanded it of me because of what God has forgiven me, NOT because I "feel like" forgiving him. I would forgive out of obedience, not out of emotional response.



I DO think “it’s the same.” You seem to be trying to argue that “Sexuality,” or in this case the specific sexuality of “homosexuality,” is NOT a sin. Yes, there may be an “enormous” internal struggle, but for Christians that isn’t the point. We WILL struggle against sin, sometimes mightily, all of our lives for a variety of “sins” and “feelings.”

“Be ye holy for I am holy,” is God’s command with respect to HOW we choose when faced with difficulties, trials, and temptations. By the same token, don’t lose sight of the fact that ADULTERY, “homo or hetero,” IS grounds for a faithful spouse to divorce the unfaithful spouse even though the “sin” is forgiven. MARRIAGE is the covenant relationship of ONE man and ONE woman and is “set apart” by God as both wonderful and a “mystery of one flesh” that is created in marriage. God’s Marriage with mankind was broken through the “adulterous” actions of Adam and Eve in choosing sin over obedience to God. I have NO DOUBT that the fruit was most appealing to look at and most tasty to bite into. The “fruit” was not the issue. The “temptation” was not the issue. The CHOICE was the issue, then, and it still is today.


I agree, it “must be” a huge “cross” to bear. God did NOT say, “take up just the light and ‘easy to carry’ crosses.” He said to take up your “cross” whatever it is, and follow Him. Even Paul had his constant “thorn in his side” to deal with that was so burdensome to him that he repeatedly asked God to “remove it from him.” I believe you know God’s answer to that and WHY God chose to leave the “thorn” in Paul’s side. To that command God has provided the means and the power and strength to DO what He has commanded. That provision is found in Philippians 4:13 and is a promise God makes to ALL Christians, and only to Christians, because God KNOWS through Christ the depth and weight of all the “crosses” we have to bear while we follow him.
First things first, if you go back and read what you quoted and then responded to, the issue was a Married wife having an affair with 3 men while married. That is “extramarital sex” and adultery. The “pre-marital sex” statement was a “typo” that should have been “extramarital sex.”

The “reasons” for why homosexuals do things is not the issue. But your statement, Of course it was wrong and betraying behavior to kiss another man, but I think in his case his homosexuality is the MAIN problem and not the betrayal itself, I would disagree with.

The MAIN problem is infidelity in marriage, no matter what sexual orientation or with what partner in adultery. No doubt homosexual feelings ARE a problem, but FIDELITY in marriage is the problem, especially for the lady who was posting her problem. Too many, in my very humble opinion, are quick to “defend” the feelings of homosexuality, perhaps even to suggest that she should be “accepting” of his homosexuality just so long as he doesn’t “actually cheat on her.” That’s like telling a heterosexual adulterer it’s “okay to have an emotional affair with someone else and not fully commit to ‘forsaking ALL others’ and keep yourself ONLY unto me.” It does not matter if someone might have a proclivity to “get involved,” emotionally or otherwise, with someone other that their husband or wife. Marriage REQUIRES exclusivity and totality for only the spouse. There is NO room in any marriage for anyone else except for God.

I don’t believe anyone is talking about “changing sexual orientation” whether or not it IS genetic, regardless of whether or not we are discussion heterosexual or homosexual “orientations.” What we are talking about is God’s perspective and God’s commands, whether or not we “like them.” God IS Sovereign, not us, and God gets to “make the rules.” That’s why most non-Christians are so against simple statements like “obey God.” It “puts” God in charge and not us individually.
But again, I think the premise of your argument is incorrect. We are NOT talking about changing “orientation.” We are talking about being obedient to God NO MATTER HOW WE ARE FEELING. We have FREE WILL that God gave us. We CAN choose how to react to “feelings” for a variety of reasons. A homosexual can CHOOSE not to “give into those feelings” and choose to live a married life “as a husband” or can choose to live a “celibate” life, not giving into feelings that would lead to sin. Heterosexuals have been doing that for millennia. They are “self-made” eunuchs, i.e., Roman Catholic Priests and Nuns. It’s NOT an issue of “CAN’T,” it’s most definitely and issue of “WON’T,” that is, a CHOICE.

Okay, I’m open for further discussion or for questions you’d like clarified or for questions about what I believe and why I believe it.
I hope that I have been caring, compassionate, sympathetic, open and honest in this response and NOT “enabling” or “excusing” sinful choices just to “get along.”

God bless.

Oky, I saw a lot on here to respond to. But i think I will just focus on a couple of things.

First, an Almost Recovered asked above concerning an athiest's compassion and love versus a Christian's compassion and love. AR, yes and atheist can have compassion and love. An atheist cannot have the compassion and love that comes from God through Jesus Christ. As a Christian, we believe that when a person is saved, Christ Himself comes to live inside us in the form of the Holy Spirit. I am no longer Mortarman...but Christ-in-Mortarman. That person is a new being, completely different from the old. I no longer HAVE to sin. I no longer have to be weak. I no longer have to be subject to this fallen world. Why? Because if I choose to let God handle my every action and thought, then I can never be wrong. Never. When a Christian sins, we do so because we ignored the direction of God who is inside us. Thus, once we have sinned, our only recourse is to admit our sin to Him, turn from that sin, and ask god for the power to overcome that sin. We do not have to ask for forgiveness or to be saved again. we were already forgiven for ALL of our sins (even the ones we are yet to commit) upon our salvation.

AR, for an athiest/Muslim/Hindu/etc, who doesnt know Jesus, it is hard for me or any Christian to get them to understand what this means. That is why although we preach the Gospel, we are not responsible for leading one erson to Christ. All we can do is be faithful and to speak the truth. To show compassion and love...but at the same time, tell that person the truth (in love) so that they might be reached by Jesus and will not perish.

An atheist or Muslim or Hindu or whomever does not have the ability to have the compassion or love that comes directly from God. I never had that ability, until Jesus Himself came to live inside of me. I now possess the power and wisdom of Jesus christ Himself, should I so decide to use it. A person who has not been saved by the sacrifice of Jesus on that Cross and turned their life over to Jesus, has not the power nor the ability to love like God loves. Only a person who has God Himself inside of them can love that way. And there is a HUGE difference between man's compassion and love...and God's compassion and love.

AR, this is a marriage building site. And yes, we do have discussions of faith. I have many atheist friends on here. And we get along just fine as we talk about marriage. We do not agree on my faith...that is okay. I still pray for them and will still stand up for the truth with them if the subject so warrants. You are welcoem here, AR. But understand if a Christian asks a question on here, then fellow Christians are obligated to give them a Scriptural answer and to debunk any other answers that are not in line with what God has shown us. We do not force this on unbelievers, as it does say in the Bible that it is really impossible for the unbeliever to fully understand anyway. but the Christian does understand...and thus, we must always tell our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ the truth. It is your choice to leave AR. My suggestion though is to stay, as other people who arent Christians do. And either maybe open up to the possibility of the truthes of Jesus Christ. Or, just stay away from discussions between Christians. I would no sooner get involved in a discussion between two Hindus, unless I was invited to present my views. So, you are welcome to stay and discuss marriage building. Or stay and join the discussion on Jesus. Or go. There is nothing to fear or be "scared" of.

-----------------

Now, to some other issues here. first off...I see a lot of Christians here talking about homosexuality, the inevitability of it, human nature, blah, blah, blah. Let's get right down to brass tacks here...Christians, how big is your God? Is He only big enough to create the Universe, but too small to handle freeing a homosexual from the bonds that hold him/her? Is He big enough to save you from your sins on that Cross, but He has little power to save that homosexual from his/her sexual "urges?" Come on now, brothers and sisters...think here. Pray a little. Look to Scripture. HOW BIG IS YOUR GOD?

Every sin to God is the same! Every one. So, the murderer is the same as the adulterer, who is the same as the homosexual, who is the same as the pedofile, who is the same as the thief, who is the same as the person who uses the Lord's name in vain. You getting the point here? Why is it that the Lord can free a person from his adultery, but cannot free him from his homosexuality? Why does that person have to continue to have homosexual urges? Why? I ask this because my God is bigger than all of those sins. He is bigger than any urge.

You know, pedofiles have been studied. They have urges which we all condemn (that is unless you are a pedofile). What is the difference (we are talking about with God now) between a pedofile's urges with wanting to have sex with a child, and a man's having the urge to want to be with another man? Is there a difference? Of course not...not to God.

So, do we treat homosexuals like we treat pedofiles? No. Why not? Somebody help me here...why dont we treat all sins the same, since God treats all sins the same? I will leave this question open for a little while and see if someone comes up with the answer.

As Christians, we understand there are differences in the world in how the world handles sin. Some sins arent even called sins in the world. Others are treated differently.

We are to help those that are afflicted by sin, that cant overcome. Because we too have had our own Cross to bear. And we know that a homosexual has the same penalty as I do for the sins that I committed. And that penalty is death and forever removal from the grace and presence of God. When I see a murderer, or a thief, or a homosexual, or any sinner...I say to myself "there, but for the grace of God, go I." I dont condemn. That isnt my job. As ForeverHers was trying to explain above, I have love and compassion even for the most ruthless killer or rapist. But that does NOT mean that I do not speak the truth. That does NOT mean that I enable or acquiesce to the sin. I call the green grass "green," no matter if the world wants to call it red. And just because I speak the truth, that does not mean that I am not compassionate or loving. If someone was about to drive down a road that I knew the bridge had collapsed on, would it be compassionate of me to forgo yelling at them to stop? Would I be loving by just saying "who is it for me to judge what they do?...It is their life and their decision." Or would the loving thing for me to do is for me to tell them what I saw and what I know...in whatever way I need to tell them...in order for them to hopefully listen?

The last thing I wanted to address was the idea that Christians are not supposed to judge. I have had this discussion on here several times, and I should have saved the posts because it would save me time typing right now. But in short...Christians ARE to judge! People misquote the Bible, take one line of Scripture out and think that is what it means. I wont go into the actual Scriptures unless someone wants to go deeper into this...but I will say that the Bible is VERY clear on the fact that Christians are to judge. And since they have the wisdom of God through the Holy Spirit...if they are listening to God...then they are the very BEST judges!

In His arms.

ForeverHers,

That was a perfect explanation.

In His arms.

Maybe that's what I was trying to say - not judge but condemn, I know it is our duty as Christians to teach the right way - but in a teaching manner and not a condemning manner - I like you Mortarman, know that my sin of adultry and many other little sins I have will be no more lightly judged by God than homosexuality or abortion...that many people judge or condemn without realizing they too will be judged.

It's why i said the small thing I said - as Christians we should be there helping people find the path instead of condeming and pushing them further off the path as none of us are perfect, and condemning gives people the sense that that we are somehow better....

I have not yet read the other responses - will do so later. However, I have quickly returned to share the following I've found from a Christian book today about homosexuality. This extraction further explains my own personal POV about this. The book is written in my mother tongue, so I have translated the part into English. Therefore, please excuse any language/word errors:

[color:"blue"] Sexual orientation is one of the four components of sexuality. It finds expression in a person’s emotional, romantic and sexual attraction or affection towards people of a particular sex. The other three components of sexuality is biological sex, sex identification and the social sex role. Sexual orientation had to do with feeling and with the self concept.

Genetic and hormonal factors, former child experiences, dominant mothers and absent fathers has been raised as reasons for a person’s sexual orientation. The most recent studies have shown that sexual orientation is the end product of a complex interaction between biological, psychological and social factors in the first (early) years of a person's life.

In 1990 the American Psychological Association published research findings which show that therapy to try and accomplish a change in sexual orientation, usually cause greater emotional problems. To try and change the sexual orientation of an adult person, involves much more than just a change in sexual behavior. It involves a total change in the person’s emotional, romantic and sexual perceptions and the reconstruction of the person’s self concept and social identity.

The first Swiss Christian-psychiatrist, Theodor Bovet, has written in Sinnerfultes Anders-sein (to live meaningful as a homosexual) that love for the same sex don’t have anything to do with morality. Within his/her life context, the homosexual can live just as morally or immorally as the heterosexual within his/her own orientation.

In the discovery of his/her predisposition, the homosexual goes through phases of guilt, self-contempt, loneliness and despair. To live as a gay believer in an ethic and responsible way within the broader society where promiscuousness also flourish, is not easy. The body of Christ can support gay people and have to serve the gay society with the love of Jesus Christ. This task involves the encouragement of the gay believers in their struggle to sublimate homosexual passions. The homosexual individual is usually exceptionally talented, sensitive, artful and, as far as creativity is concerned, observably an image bearer of God.

Therefore, the unnatural and God-glorification alternative in the life of the faithful homosexual can be sublimation e.g. passion poured out in art and drama, sport and statuary, the planning of tourist-sights etc. Quietly, thousands of gay believers have already chosen this way.

Just as difficult as it is for the prayer less person to practice the discipline of prayer, is the path of sublimation for the gay believer. But the hour has arrived where the forgotten perspective – the attitude and disposition of Christ – have to be found back. The church is responsible to let every gay believer be a beloved member of the body of Christ.[/color]

There is other parts in the book I also want to post, but I didn't had the time to translate everything. Will do so later.

Nikko said:

please, in detail, describe to me the day, hour, minute, and circumstances of when you chose? oh, come on now, it really shouldnt be that hard. think of all the other life choices you've made.....finding the "one", the day you or he proposed.....your wedding....the day you decided to become parents.....

this is a major life choice as are all the others i listed....i remember all the details of the other days VERY clearly...however i have no idea what, when, or why, i chose to love men......i just do. it was always there in me.....

so humor me and relive this life changing choice for me and re-count it for us......

Isn't this what many of the WS's say?
I never wanted this, it just happened.... I never chose to do this, it just happened.

Don't we choose when we have thoughts, and we continue to entertain them?

Don't we all have our own cross to bear? Our own fight to fight?

Isn't it part of our earthly experiance?

Aren't we expected to fight the fight, run the race, and overcome the world?

God doesn't teach what he does to limit us, but to show us the way to happiness. Some believe that the way to happiness is to follow our feelings - be they sexual orientation, or adultry. God teaches a higher law - to overcome our feelings and live a better way. We can believe, or not.

The natural man is an enemy to God.

Jesus said: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

He invites everyone everywhere to come to him, and be healed.

To me, the question is not am I this way, or that way, but will I accept his invititation - take him at his word, let him help.

I have listened to people relate how this happened to them in their life. How their hearts were changed. I have heard it in connection with leanings to crime, alcoholisim, drug addiction, and even sexual orientation.

I love the help we get here on MB. I love the support. I am grateful for Dr Harley and the things he has written. They have helped me a great deal. I am thankful for the counseling recources, and the articles, and the forum. What a great help, in a world so full of diffuculties.

I look at God as another source of help - the greatest source that exists. This is a source I have used personally, and I highly recommend it.

SS

Interesting conversations.....I have to pose a question. If the Bible defines homosexuality as a sin, and acceptance of Christ is freedom from that sin, then isn't it a choice whether the sinner wishes to remove to sin? Maybe they struggle with the feelings of temptation, but we all struggle with the feelings of sin. Being tempted by adultery no longer makes me an adulter, being tempted by homsexuality no longer makes a person a homosexual. It's just the temptation of sin calling to the person. Not until they act upon the sin are they called out for the sin they commit.

I think too we relate people too much to the sins. God has judged the sins and pronounced judgement upon those sins. Unfortunately Adam and Eve unleashed those sins upon all of us and now it's hard to separate the sin from the person committing the sin.

Jesus had no problem pointing out a person's sin. The lady at well was amazed at how much He knew about her. Peter denied what Jesus told him. Sin's are present in all of our lives and God has already judged those sins. So in essence, we all have been judged. But it the sin we carry that has caused us to be judged.

I personally don't care if the person is born a homosexual, makes a choice to be one, is predestined to be one, but clearly he has a choice to accept Christ and then it becomes a matter of temptation which comes back again and again to tempt the person, any person. I'm tempted every day by things I don't want to be tempted by and it pains me. I heard that as a debate for the homosexual. It pains me that as an adulter I am tempted daily because of my past addiction. But thanks be to God and Christ who gets me through each and every temptation!!!

If you are going with the born that way sexual orientation, I bet you can find hundreds of adulterers that will tell you they were "born with" sexual orientation for multiple partners. You can even find published "studies" in which there are claims that man is not/was not meant to be monogamous.

In my personal belief of the Bible, I believe you must believe the Bible in its entirety or not at all.

What does the Bible say about homosexuality? I don't think it discusses whether one is born that way or not - it doesn't matter because it says not to. "Lev. 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."

I do believe that if one is going to say that sexual orientation (homosexuality) is born into us, then pedophiles must surely have their sexual orientation born into them. IT AIN'T RIGHT NO MATTER WHERE IT COMES FROM!

Wouldn't it be a scary world if everyone acted on their tendancies???

Mortarman - Thanks for your insight and contribution to the discussion. Please continue to contribute as I am sure that many will have questions and "another voice" might be preferred by many.



Suzet, a question for clarification purposes.

In your post you included the following from the book you were quoting from; [color:"blue"]The church is responsible to let every gay believer be a beloved member of the body of Christ. [/color]

I don't know the author of the book or what he believes, or your view on this matter either, hence the question.

Is the author of the book, and yourself by way of affirmation in quoting it or lack of disclaimer, saying that the believing "church" is supposed to let practicing homosexuals into fellowship? Or is the intent of the statement that repentant homosexuals who have "given up" that lifestyle in obedience to God, and are to be welcomed into the church of Christ like all sinners who have been forgiven by God and who have surrendered their lives to Christ?

Picking up on what Mortarman said, the "church" is instructed to NOT allow practicing sin to "invade" the church. It is to be lovingly "confronted" in the hope that the sinner will repent and can be brought back into full fellowship, but sin is NOT to tolerated among God's people.
That is the teaching of Matthew 18:15-20 regarding "church discipline."

This idea of "accepting practicing homosexuals" into fellowship is invading many churches today, including some who are allowing such persons into a position of authority and "teaching." That is the sort of "tolerance" that can easily lead to apostasy.

So I'm looking for some clarification from you on that quotation.

God bless.

Dorry, your sin HAS been forgiven and will NOT be judged by God with respect to your salvation. Where it may "come into play" is that we will all have to give an accounting of our lives, how we sinned and how we became more "Christ-like." That is when the "rewards" for Christians and how they lived their lives on earth will be given out by God. But the "greatest" reward is already reserved, eternally secure, and held by Christ, FOR ALL believers....forgiveness of all sins and eternal life with God.


No question we need to stand ready to help a seeker, but don't lose sight of the fact that many will not accept Christ no matter what you do. That(conversion) is up to God, not us. I would further submit that in most of the "Western World," at least, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has not already heard about Jesus and has made a choice. They, as do all of us, have until their death to choose FOR Christ, but there are some who never will. There are also some who are "beyond" our ability to help for a variety of reasons.

Just one example, if there is going to be someone to lead my wife's ex-OM to Christ, it won't be her and it won't be me. God is quite capable of raising up someone else to use as His witness in that case, but has also provided that WE don't have to any contact with him for any reason.

I hope what I was trying to say was clear. If not, please ask for clarification.

God bless.

Dorry, you will get no argument from me here. I think you hit the nail on the head. We as Christians are to judge, we are to discern. What we cannot do is condemn. That is reseved for God alone. Thus, there is no condemnation from me of your sins as a WW. why? Because of what I just said, as well as the fact that you have repented and God has forgiven. And if He says those sins are as far away as the East is from the West, then how dare I not do the same?

You are a sister in Christ, not a FWW...as I have said before. I can rightly judge that your behavior when involved in the affair was wrong. But no way can I ever condemn you.

In His arms.

Suzet,

I am interested in finding out more about this book. As ForverHers said, from what you presented so far, that this book has some serious problems with Scripture. But maybe that extract doesnt show in its entirety wha tthe author was trying to portray. So, as I said, I would much rather read the book and then take it before God's word and in prayer.

In His arms.

SS, you are so very right here. Good post!

In His arms.

Well, yes. God gave us freewill. He honors our choices. But, He also has freewill. And just because he gave us a choice doesnt mean He gave His up.


Jesus was tempted. Temptation is NOT a sin. But actions arent the only way to sin, as Jesus pointed out. If you receive that temptation, and then think about it...you are then sinning. Example?? Okay, a pretty woman walks down the street. I walk by and see her and the first thought into my head was "My, my..." You guys know what I am talking about here. But, if I then go up to her and try to get a date, I would be wrong because I am a married man. I think we can all agree that was sin. But, let's say I dont say anythign to her. But instead, I continue to walk, pondering all the things I would do with this woman if I wasnt married and had a chance to be with her. THAT IS SIN! And it is the same adultery as if I had slept with her. So, in short...temptation is not a sin. But actions or even holding onto that temptation in your mind, most assuredly is a sin.


Unfortunately, it isnt those sins that condemn us to He!!. There is only one sin that does that. You see, all of these sins that we talk about here were taken care of on the Cross. The sin that keeps us from Heaven and eternal life is when we do not accept Jesus' sacrifice and accept Him as Lord. Then God says "Fine, you did not want to accept the payment My Son made on your behalf...well, now, you get to make the payment." So, getting caught up in who did what sin, etc is a lost cause. The only real question is has a person accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, repented of his sins, and accepted Jesus into his life. After that, it is just about sanctification, which is the continuing process of making us more like Christ.



You are right. But remember, God also provided His Son to pay the penalty for all of those sins. Thus, the only sin that will condemn us is the one of rejection of Christ and His work on the Cross.


Good stuff there!

In His arms.

Scary indeed! Good points.

In His arms.

You are doing a great job, my friend. But never fear...Mortarman is always up for a discussion about my Lord and what He wants out of all of us.

Okay, I’m back. I want to respond to a couple of things which was said so far on this thread and I will do so throughout the day as I can find the time at work.

Let me start by saying that a few things were said by some of you Christian posters which again has raised some serious concerns in me and show again that there is a serious lack of sensitivity, insight, understanding & compassion on this issue of homosexuality. The most shocking was to read how some posters actually compared the sexual orientation & urges of a homosexual to that of a pedophile! How sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I wonder what gay Christen believers who struggle with homosexual urges and temptations will think if they come here and read such words… Do those of you who said it and compared the homosexually orientated people to pedophiles don’t think such words will sent a message of rejection and condemnation to gay oriented believers who might read here? Not very Christian, compassionate, empathetic or sensitive IMO… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I will fully elaborate on this later. I will also explain why I think the sin of homosexuality can not be compared to crimes like child molestation, theft, murder, rape, adultery etc.

For now, I will just respond on the following from ForeverHers:

FH, no, nor me or the author of the book are saying or implying that practicing homosexuals who are NOT willing to resist & fight their homosexual temptations & urges should be accepted in the church. I thought the whole quote from that book made it very clear. Maybe, to make it more clearer, I should have said that: [color:"blue"]The church is responsible to let every gay orientated believer who have overcome or who are actively try to overcome the homosexual urges and temptations be a beloved member of the body of Christ. [/color]

I think “church discipline” must only apply to people who are unrepentant, unremorseful and show NO willingness to overcome or resist a specific sin or temptation… Remember, to overcome a specific sin and temptation is a process and usually it takes much time to overcome it – overcoming a specific sin or temptation is not something which will necessarily happen overnight or the minute you repent & surrender yourself to God.

The same goes for homosexuals. Therefore, a newly repentant homosexual in the church who have surrendered him/herself to God and have or wants to “give up” the homosexual lifestyle, will most probably experience difficulties in doing so and he/she will probably experience a few setbacks before he/she will finally succeed in overcoming it. It's like a baby who learn to walk.

And here the role of the church comes in: IMO the church must help, support and encourage such a person to overcome his/her struggle and not condemn and reject them if they struggle and fail in doing so. As I have quoted from the book:

[color:"blue"]The body of Christ can support gay people and have to serve the gay society with the love of Jesus Christ. This task involves the encouragement of the gay believers in their struggle to sublimate homosexual passions.[/color]

AND

[color:"blue"]Just as difficult as it is for the prayer less person to practice the discipline of prayer, is the path of sublimation for the gay believer. But the hour has arrived where the forgotten perspective – the attitude and disposition of Christ – have to be found back.[/color]

Jesus have empathy, understanding and compassion for our struggles in overcoming our own personal temptations & sinful behaviors and the church should practice the same love and compassion towards its members (including homosexuals who have not yet mastered their urges and temptations, but who have a willing spirit and desire to do so).

Blessings,
Suzet

Edited to add:
FH, also check out my post to dorry please.

i noticed a few of you compared my question to adultery...that was a nice side step. i also noticed neither of you answered it! come on...we share so much here...tell me about the day you CHOSE.

and please notice nowhere on here have i said i dont think its a sin. i dont think its a choice to be this way. any actions taken are ALWAYS A CHOICE. i dont need to be reminded that ws's could use the same words....i've lived in those shoes....

Exactly! Well said dorry. I agree with you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It boils down again to ”hate the sin, but love the sinner”. I think sometimes people confuse acceptance with approval. It’s possible to accept someone’s behavior (because it’s his/her choice) without approving it. Some people think if you accept the wrong behavior of someone you automatically approves it, but of course this is not true…

For example, my brother practiced pre-marital sex with his GF, she has gotten pregnant, the baby was born last week, and my brother is still not married to her. Now, my father don’t want to accept the GF OR the innocent baby in his house because he thinks if he do that it will looks like he is approving by brother and his GF’s behavior. As a result my father is now condemning my brother, his GF and the poor baby. My father clearly confuses acceptance with approval. This is a very sad situation.

I, on the other had, made it VERY clear to my brother that I think living together with his GF and practicing pre-marital sex is WRONG before God, but it is still his choice and I’m willing to accept (not approve) the situation out of respect and love for my brother. He knows how I feel about this whole situation and he and his GF’s behavior, but I’m not going to condemn them. And if my brother and/or his GF wants to go with me to church, I will definitely not deny them to do so…because maybe they will receive a message which will help to convince them to change their wrong and sinful lifestyle.

The same goes should I have a gay friend who have not yet given up his/her homosexual lifestyle, but want to go to church and learn about God. Therefore, I think in some degree the church can accept active homosexuals in the church without approving the behavior. How else can they learn about God, learn about His teachings and become convinced to change their lifestyle? What better place than a loving, compassionate church Of Christ where the people care about the sinners, accept them but don't approve their sin? What better way to lead someone to God and on the right path?

Suzet, have you ever heard of NAMBLA? If not, I'd strongly suggest you "look into it." It IS, in my opinion, an association of homosexuals DEDICATED to pedophilia with young BOYS, hence the "Man/Boy part of their name. My "Christian" and "Human" compassion, love, and concern are for the young boys who are the intended victims of this sick homosexual group. It is NOT "just another harmless 'ol lifestyle," and I could care less if I "offend" proponents of such a heinous sin, they NEED, imho, "offending" to hopefully get some of them to reconsider their choices and to protect the children from predators.

Will they ever change? That's up to God, but I personally think that they have been "given over" to their depravity and have no chance of ever softening their hearts to receive Christ. They HAVE chosen, and chosen against Christ. There IS always the "hope" of a "deathbed conversion," ala the one thief on the cross with Christ, but in the meantime, I'm all for protecting the children and abandoning the perpetrators of such sick sin to a deserted island somewhere, where they can prey on each other.

"Appeasement," "tolerance," "concern for THEIR (the perpetrators) feelings," is NOT how to "confront sin" as Jesus would. Jesus put it plainly...."go now and LEAVE your life of sin." That is the answer to the question that gets tossed around so carelessly sometimes....What Would Jesus Do?

God bless.

FH, I understand what you are saying and I agree with everything you said about the NAMBLA practice (it’s very disgusting and I also very bad for those boys <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />), but I want to make it clear that this thread and topic is NOT about homosexuals who are dedicated to pedophilia with young BOYS and practice such evil behavior. Such behavior is also called CHILD MOLESTATION and SEXUAL CHILD ABUSE - an entirely different and an issue I feel VERY strong about (because I was sexually abused as a child myself).

However, this thread and topic of discussion is about people with a homosexual identity who choose to enter a homosexual relationship with another ADULT SAME-SEX PERSON because of their sexual identity and orientation. I’m also talking about gay orientated believers who don’t want to be that way and didn’t CHOOSE their sexual orientation and identity, but struggle with homosexual urges and temptations because of it.

You can’t compare the struggles of gay orientated Christen believers to that of homosexual pedophiles who don't care what they do to their victims (the boys)... As I've said, it’s an ENTIRELY different issue and this thread is about the first group who are NOT child molesters.

Suzet,

I hear what you are trying to get at. It is like the exaple of which way is more effective"

1. Yelling at a heathen to "repent or die"
2. Ministering to a heathen the truth in love and compassion

Obviously both ways would be telling the truth. And most would say the second way would be the best way...but I say not in all cases.

The second way was obvious with Jesus when He interacted with the woman at the well. He was kind, but firm. And He told her to go and sin no more. So, although He was compassionate, He didnt hold back any punches with her. He told her she was in sin, had five husbands. That she was an adulteress. Does that sound compassionate? Well, if He had been saying this to a homosexual today, He would be chastised for being insensitive. Of course He was being compassionate.

The first way Jesus also used. Remember when He talked to the Pharises? He called them a brood of vipers and told them that they followed their father, the Devil. Sounds sensitive doesnt it? Compassionate? How dare Jesus get angry and dump over tables in the synogogue? How dare He whip the tax collectors?

You see, this is not all cut and dried here. I do agree that Christians should be sensitive in how they speak, in order to be more effective and have the message of the word of God reach the ears of the lost. But I do not agree that telling the truth is a bad thing.

Here is a case-in-point. You were upset in your last post about having homosexuality compared to pedophiles? What's the difference? Okay, you might say that children dont have the emotional ability to chose the right thing and are being taken advantage of. Okay, I'll accept that difference. But what about the urge to want to be with a child? Isnt that the same urge that the homosexual has? Isnt it a sexual urge that is sinful and must not be acted upon? You see, I always have had a problem with pornography. I have that urge to want to see it. It took awhile for the Lord to free me from those bonds. Now, should someone come up and try to be sensitive with me because I carry this urge to want to partake of porno? or should they hold me accountable as a Christian, understanding that I do have this weakness? Should they not help me stay on the narrow road?

Every one of us has a Cross to bear. Every one of us has sinful urges, some that will hound us for a lifetime. Alcoholism, drugs, adultery, homosexuality, pedofilia, thievery, etc. So, for me to hold a Christian who has homosexual urges to a standard different than other Christians with different sinful urges, would be wrong.

I understand your point of a homosexual reading this stuff and getting turned off from it. But no where in here do I see anyone making a personal attack against them, just as we dont take a personal attack against a WS. We tell them they are wrong, we tell them why, and we tell them what they need to do to get right with God.

And that is in keeping with the way Jesus performed His ministry while on Earth.

In His arms.

Mortarman, let me explain why I think the sin of homosexuality can not be compared to crimes like child molestation, theft, murder, rape, adultery etc:

In all of the examples above (pedophiles, thefts, murderer, rapists, adulterers etc.) it’s about CRIMES which are committed against VICTIMS e.g.

the victim of the pedophile is the boy or girl who has been abused...
the victim of the theft is the person who have lost his/her belongings because of the theft...
the victim of the murderer is the person who has been murdered...
the victim of the rapists is the raped woman (or man)...
the victim of the adulterer is the BS and his/her kids/family...
etc. etc. etc.

So in all the cases above, there is a VICTIM involved and the purpose of the behaviors above is to do DAMAGE to another person. In a homosexual relationship between two same-sex people - where both have choose to enter into an exclusive and intimate relationship with each other - there is no victim involved. Can you see the difference?

Also keep in mind that two homosexual people who enter into an intimate relationship with each other and live together, don’t necessarily have to be sexual with each other and practice the “sexual act”. An intimate relationship involves much more than just “sex” and “sexual intimacy”. Popel tend to think that homosexual relationship is just about sex. So now I ask myself:

Where does one draw the line? What did God mean when He said two men and two women are not allowed to “lay together”? Was he only talking about sexual interactions or did He refer to the relationship as a whole? WHAT IF 2 homosexual orientated people decide to stay together and have an intimate relationship on all other areas than sex? (In other words, if they have emotional intimacy and show affection to each other, but exclude “sexual acts” from their relationship)? Is such type of involvement also prohibited by God? So, are homosexual orientated people not allow to have ANY type of intimate involvement (on other areas than sex) with someone of the same sex at all? So are they not allowed to have an intimate relationship and be life partners on friendship and emotional level with anothr same sex person at all? WHAT IF it's possible for the two homosexual partners to love each other in an intimate relationship but stay "celibate" (withold themselves from each other on sexual level)? Will the church just automatically assume that 2 homosexual people who are living together and show affection to each other, also have a sexual involvement and as a result abandon them from church? WHAT IF these poeple are condemned and abandoned from church while they ARE stay "celibate" within the relationship but no one believes them?

I ask all these question to give people something to think about and show them that this issue is not just black and white and as clear cut as it seems on the surface…

Suzet - I really would ask you to seriously question the "experts" you are quoting on sexuality. You speak with authority, but it contradicts other experts who aren't published by the amoral mainstream media.

I have to go with my own training in mental health and my personal spiritual studies. I have studied this extensively instead of buying into the pop psych of the day. It boils down to this:

I was born, genetically oriented to addiction, depression, manic depression, suicide, obesity, and heart disease. Life circumstances compounded that genetic problem into a real-life challenge that I face as an adult almost daily.

Do I succumb to the flesh? Or do I overcome? The argument that God made me that way so it must be ok for me to ACT on those predispositions is so wrong-headed. If I acted on these, I would be dependent upon tax-payer support; or I could be homeless and add to society's problems that way. I would be absolutely more miserable than I can even fathom, and I would be making those who love me suffer because they would be helpless to stop me because it's MY choice to ACT on my predisposed tendencies.

I make different choices. As a result, I'm sleep deprived, unfulfilled sexually, I HAVE to exercise and watch my diet, and be resigned to generally living a physically uncomfortable life.

Yet, because I'm engaged in overcoming the flesh, I live a much more fulfilled life than I would, if I gave in to the flesh.

Someone who believes they are born homosexual, yet desiring to live from a Judeo-Christian or Islamic moral code, will master that predisposition to be at peace spiritually.

And I agree with Dorry - it is the action, not the tendency which is at conflict with Christianity.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to the point of this particular discussion.

Suzet*, we may be talking about two very different things here, so I wanted to clarify this point.

ALL people, practicing sinnners, unbelievers, believers (old and newly "minted") are WELCOME to sit in the pews of any Christian church and be "ministered to" by the preaching of the Word of God and the proximity of believers. That is a "reach out" sort of thing.

But "membership" in a local body of believers, imho, "should be" restricted to those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and, in the case of someone who has been struggling with "prohibited" sin, membership delayed, and/or denied, until sufficient time has passed to give evidence that they have "overcome" their prediliction to that sin (be it homosexuality, adutlery, pornography, etc., etc., etc.). Once in "membership," the local church has the biblical responsibility, for the good of the church itself, to follow Matthew 18:15-20 concerning the "discipline" of it's members. Membership in a local body of believers should not, therefore, be undertaken lightly by either party to the membership agreement.

Understand that I am talking about membership in a LOCAL body of believers called a "Church," that fellowship together to worship the Lord and to be edified throught the expository preaching of the Word.

Homosexuals, like all of us various sorts of sinners, who have accepted Jesus Christ as both their Savior and their LORD, ARE a member of the 'catholic church' of all believers. There IS only "one true church of God," and that is Christ's "bride," regardless of local affiliation.

But be careful, the "Wheat" and the "Tares" WILL be growing together. So carefully discern what is taught in any local church to determine if it is "of God" or "not of God." The Scripture is the final authority of that determination, so expect that those who want to go the "not of God" route will begin to attack the authority of Scripture, bending, twisting, and denying the truths that God, through His inspiration of the writers, revealed to mankind. This road of denying the Scriptures leads, invariably over time, to apostasy (even though they may still "claim" to be "Christian", though certainly NOT as it is traditionally and historically defined).

God bless.

I have to disagree with Suzets arguement in that without sex the two men would not be considered homosexuals. I think two men can have a bonded friendship and live together without having sex and not be homosexual. In the bible it says the David loved Jonathan more than any woman, yet David was not a homosexual. Their bond was great as two men and they deeply trusted and respected each other. So without sex being involved, two men who love and care for each other do not have to be considered homosexual.

KaylaAndy, NOWHERE in my posts have I said it’s okay for homosexual orientated people to ACT on their urges, impulses and desires, so I don’t know why you have mentioned the above in the quote. I also agree with Dorry that it is the action, not the tendency which is at conflict with Christianity. But please remember that people are not equally strong and some may take longer than others to overcome their personal problems & struggles.

FH, thanks for the clarification on this matter. I agree with you on this one.

I didn't said this or made arguments about anything in this specific post. I just gave some questions for people to ponder and to give food for thought on this complex matter...

And I was not talking about 2 heterosexual orientated men who are having a close friendship (like than example in the Bible) - I was talking about 2 homosexual orientated men who have an intimate relationship with each other but didn't involve sex or any type of sexual contact in their relationship.

I agree that without sex being involved, two men who love and care for each other do not have to be considered homosexual. But what if they ARE homosexually orientated and sexually attracted to one another but don't ACT on those impulses? Is that also then not considered an homosexual relationship as long as they don't ACT on their feelings?

FH,

I don't understand. Are you saying that there are different "classifications" of sin? So if someone has a huge issue with pride (which for some may be a difficult sin to battle - such battle taking a lifetime) they would be acceptable for membership even though they haven't given evidence they have overcome that sin? Please tell me where in the Bible it says that as I will have to educate my minister.

Our problem in todays society is that we think if two men live together, and the two men do things together, and the two men seem to care for each other, then the two men have to be homosexual. We have built a society that is homophobic. There was a period of time in history when it was common for men to live together and take care of one another, not sexually, but as deep caring friends. Nuns, monks are some examples in todays world that live in such a way. We put the label homosexual there because of sex. What is wrong about people caring for each other in a non-sexual manner? Nothing. Timothy cared for Paul and tended to his needs.

So homosexual is a label we put. I'm not sure we all understand it. I'm not sure the person who gets involved fully understands it at times. Sometimes the carings and emotional part gets mixed up with the physical part and had the emotional part just been there maybe the physical sex would have never manifestied itself. It's hard to say. I just know from my same sex friends, it's not about sex, it's about the emotional bond with men.

Suzet,

Rather than go into every question that you posted, let me just ask this:

It appears that you believe there are victimless crimes, correct?

Well, sin isnt defined by man...it is defined by God. And every sin...EVERY sin, has a victim! And the primary victim is NOT the rape victim, or the child who was molested, or the person that was murdered. God did not create He!! for people who sinned against their fellow man. He created He!! for people that sinned against HIM! The "victim" is God.

I have said the the world has various levels of "sins." Some sins are more heinous than others. But to God, they are all the same. They are all the same because they all have the same penalty...death. And not just physical death...but also eternal spiritual death.

The pedofile has sexual urges, right? And yes, there is an innocent victim in this...the child. But that sin causes the same result with God as does the act of two men having intimate relations with each other. Both are sins against God and both carry the same penalty.

Interestingly enough, while we have our sins ranked, Jesus' blood ranks no sin. ALL sins are capable of being forgiven by that same blood.

So, if the homosexual and the pedofile both have sexual urges that if acted upon, are an affront to God and will cause eternal damnation, then as a Christian, I am most concerned about that. I am concerned about their eternal well-being. Both struggle against ungodly sexual urges. But as a Christian, Jesus gives that person the power to overcome these urges (notice I didnt say rid themselves of the urges) through the reliance on Jesus. That is if we CHOOSE to rely on Him.

The homosexual or the pedofile or ANY other sinner, as a Christian, has the power to overcome these urges or "tendencies." God didnt set a bunch of rules and then lift the bar so high that they werent attainable. But, as a man, that bar is too high for me. But as a man who has Jesus inside of me, then I am a person that can reach and exceed those bars.

It goes back to what I said originally...how big is your God? I dont expect a heathen to overcome homosexuality or any other sin. But I do expect my brothers and sisters in Christ to do so. Because they have the Word and they have the Holy Spirit. And that is MORE than enough.

To treat homosexuality as some victimless sin, with patting them on the heads and saying that's okay, we understand," is to allow that believer to rebel against the word of God. And Hebrews 10 tells of what happens to believers when they rebel against the Word.

The wife of the man on here that her husband kissed that guy has only one issue with him. Will he bend his knee and follow Christ? Will he trust God to help him overcome his temptations? Will he let God take over?

If this man choses to wrestle with this on his own, he will fail everytime. And his wife should begin the process of church discipline for and to him. But if he will bend his knee to Christ, then his wife should help him find the help he needs, help him in order to get him focused on Christ. And then he will overcome.

Suzet, I have to disagree with you here. There is no such thing as a victimless sin. And I am more concerned with the sin against God by a murderer, than the sin against the person he murdered. And so is God.

In His arms.

Fair enough question, Eaglesoar. But before I attempt to answer it for you, let me pose a question to you in return and make a few brief comments.

Please tell me WHERE it is written, so we can all be educated, that if there is KNOWN sin that someone is struggling with, as opposed to their hiding it and claiming "all is well," that they should be admitted into the local body of believers in full membership even though they are still "practicing" (either by choice or by "slip") that which is expressly forbidden by God for anyone, much less HIS children?

The Roman Catholic Church is right now "struggling" with what to do with Priests who have molested children. Should they NOT follow the biblical directive for "church discipline?" If not, on what authority should they refuse to obey Christ's clear directive on the matter?

Will you have unprotected sex with someone who is known to have HIV simply because they have said that they don't want to "infect you?" I know, that's "reaching" a bit, but the idea is that the "problem" is KNOWN, not hidden, and the "body" has the right and obligation to it's members to limit exposure when things are KNOWN.

IF someone infects someone else with HIV, because in their selfish desire to "belong" they chose NOT to reveal the truth of what they struggle with and will have for the rest of their lives, the "major" fault lies with the person who "lied by ommision" and stated that they are "only struggling with no longer "practicing unsafe sex with members of the same sex," but failed to state that the infection was still "transmissable" or "harmful" to others. In such a case, celebacy might also be required as one of the "consequences" of the original decision to ACT on sinful desires and temptations, because "Forgiven" does NOT mean that all consequences of sin are erased from the life of the "forgiven sinner." They ARE saved, and a member of the "catholic church" of all believers, but the consequences of sin may still have to be addressed and dealt with. Some take little time to address and some take a lot of time, such is the differing nature of some sins, especially those sins against one's own body.

Becontent, in fact it does... Please read the following text from the Bible and tell me how YOU interpret this script. IMO this script also refers to people who can't marry and have to practise "celibacy" because of their sexual orientation & identity (which they didn't choose) - and this verse CLEARLY states that some people are BORN this way. Here is the scripture:


Here are other versions on this verse:



To read the entire chapter on Matthew 19 (KJV), go here. It’s better to read the whole chapter in its entire context.

Well, as you can see from the above scripture, the Bible do talk about homosexuality (as I interpreted it) which are born into some people. The scripture also said some people are MADE this way by the actions of others, and as I see it, this part probably refers to people who have gotten homosexually orientated because of things which happened in their early childhood years whether it was sexual abuse by heterosexual or homosexual pedophiles, an absent father or whatever. I consider pedophile behavior evil and from the devil. I can’t say the same about homosexual orientation though because I know some people become homosexual orientated as a direct result of the behavior of pedophiles (sexual child abuse) and this is the other reason it makes me so angry if people like you compare homosexual orientated people with the behavior of pedophiles. I mean, I was molested myself from a very young age (2 years) and for YEARS into adulthood I didn’t trust & respect men as a result of that… Therefore, I think it’s only by GOD’s GRACE that I turned out relatively normal (thank God!) and didn’t become a homosexual orientated person myself… But I’m asking myself: WHAT IF I DID turn out homosexually orientated and wasn’t interested & able to connect with the opposite sex because of what happened in my past? Would I then receive the same condemnation and rejection from Christians as some other gay believers receive because of their sexual orientation? I wonder… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Maybe this is why this topic has touched such a nerve with me...

Edited to add:
Please note I was talking about sexual orientation & identity in the above context, not ACTING on those urges and impulses. There is a difference. And it's true that some people ARE condemned because of their sexual orientation although they are not ACTING on those feelings. And sometimes those who condemn and judge them are CHRISTIANS... It's very sad.

FH,

I agree with you completely that the church is called to discipline its members and is not to turn a blind eye to sin. But you and I both know there are bodies of believers the world over who will cheerfully admit to full membership the prideful, the gluttonous, the covetous, etc. and are focused on excluding the homosexual.

IMHO, a practicing homosexual who has not chosen celibacy is clearly sinning and as such, discipline is warranted. What I disagree with is the body of believers who focus on this one sin to the exclusion of all others. We have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I wrestle with my own sin on a daily basis.

From your post I seem to hear you say that known sin (known to whom? the pastor? the governing body of the group of believers? the elders? most of the congregation?) exempts one from becoming a member of the body. If that is the case, then I am not fit for membership because I am overweight and obviously engage in the sin of gluttony.

It seems to me that the body of believers should be those who confess their sin to God, ask forgiveness, accept Jesus Christ as their savior, and try their dead level best to live their lives in a way that is pleasing to Him. The body of believers is not those who are already sinless because there was only one of those and He died on the cross.

I truly could not follow your logic on the HIV paragraph and for that I apologize. Are you saying allowing someone with a know sin into a congregation will infect them? Certainly a congregation should not turn a blind eye to sin in its midst and I agree the body is called to discipline its members. However, it is not called to only discipline certan specific sins but all sins. Mine included.

Suzet,

Your last post struck a nerve with me, especially the last part. Let's take your supposition to its logical end.

A fictitious example. Let's say my father beat my mother and my siblings and I when I was young. And we know that studies have shown that boys that grew up in abusive homes, tend to be abusers.

So, I grow up and abuse my wife and kids. Whose fault is it? Who is sinning? Who pays the penalty of that sin, both to the world and to God? I do, of course. Now, if I would have had a loving environment when I grew up, I probably wouldnt have become an abuser, in my example here. But instead, I had a rotten home life and a father who taught me to hit women and children. Is it my father's fault? Should people come alongside me and treat me as if I am a victim?

Absolutely not!! Remember, ALL sin has been passed down. We are ALL "victims" of what Adam and Eve did in the Garden. So, we really shouldnt be held responsible, should we? I mean, they were the ones that sinned and passed it onto us, right?

Do you see where this logically leads, Suzet?

What about the pedofile who became one because he was molested? Do we not lock him up? Do we not treat him the same as the guy who was "born" that way?

You have classified sins here as some being evil and from the Devil. Well, the Bible says that all sins are evil. As Jesus said, you are either for Him or against Him. Which means that if it isnt of God, then it has to be of the world...of Satan. Jesus is not a uniter. He doesnt deal in grey areas. Jesus is a divider. He says that if you do not follow Him, then you are in your sins...all of them. And all of them are equal, because all of them have the same penaly...capital punishment. Eternal death.

When we start trying to rank sins as Christians, we are not following the example of Christ. Christ had compassio nand love for everyone. But He condoned NO sin.

The issue with Christ is are you open to following Him? Will you let Him lead? If a person is open to being saved, and following Christ NO MATTER WHAT, then Christ shows compassion and helps that person overcome their struggles. If that person has not or will not (remember, He already knows what your decision will be) follow Him, then He doesnt even waste His time. That is why He could flog unrepentent tax collectors and at the same time, be loving to a woman caught in adultery. He knew that woman would follow Him. He knew the ones He flogged never would.

My pastor, when doing counseling, starts off the first session with "Now Mortarman, I am here to help. And we will begin to work through all of the issues that you came here to address. But I have a question for you. If during this, God reveals what He wants for you to do, will you obey NO MATTER WHAT that decision is?" Now, if you say "Well, that depends on what He says." or "I dnot know," then my pastor says "then this counseling session is over."

Why does he do that? How is that compassionate? Why wont he work with that person when they havent stated upfront that they will follow where the Lord directs? It is because my pastor would be wasting his time with a Christian that doesnt want to or doesnt know if he will follow God's will. It is a waste of everyone's time involved in the counseling.

Again, it all comes back to Jesus. A person is either for Him or against Him. Most people in history have chosen to be against Him, because they never chose to be for Him.

The road is narrow. Most people follow the wide path. The wide path does NOT lead to Heaven.

In His arms.

Here is the answer to your questions. We all struggle against the forces of evil. Teh issue is one of rebellion, that warrants being disciplined by the church. If I have a problem with pornography, and I go to the church elders for help, they are not going to throw me out...they are going to come alongside me and help me. But, if I have a problem with pornography, and my wife takes me before the church...and I still refuse to stop, then this is where I end up:



In His arms.

I agree totally with your post that it is an issue of rebellion against God's Word. I also agreed with your earlier post that God doesn't rank sin.

I do not think it deals with sexual orientation at all. Here is the dictionary definition of an Eunuch:

1 : a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2 : a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals

Here is the Bible Dictionary definition:

Eunuch Literally bed-keeper or chamberlain, and not necessarily in all cases one who was mutilated, although the practice of employing such mutilated persons in Oriental courts was common (Kg2 9:32; Est 2:3). The law of Moses excluded them from the congregation (Deu 23:1). They were common also among the Greeks and Romans. It is said that even to-day there are some in Rome who are employed in singing soprano in the Sistine Chapel.

Also, particularly in the Old Testament some of the Eunuchs were about self-mutulation which was condemned

.

It is about a man that cannot have sex whether from castration or birth defects. I see nowhere that this would fit into a man that wants to have sex with a man.

I would agree in that we can have any sexual orientation or tendency we want, it is acting on them that is the sin. Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing Biblically wrong with living a sexless life.

Suzet,

Just wanted to say that I appreciate your views about homosexuality and christianity. I'm catholic and I had a lesbian A, and the sexual and religious aspects really set me back. I didn't even discuss my religion on here. It's not a topic for discussion, IMO. It's something private, that I share with my priests and with people whom are extremely close to me. Thankfully the religious aspects were never brought into my various threads, or I'd have a whole other ball of wax to deal with!!

FH:
I've got to say that I agree with JL and some other posters, in that it seems that you delight in quoting scripture to those whom you *think* need it here. It's quite disconcerting. I wouldn't like to be preached to in my time of need. My own religion is enough to carry me through, and I wouldn't need anyone else's take on it. JMO, but you could have found another way to support or help that poster without cramming your religious views down her throat.

Buttercup,

I am not sure where I have ever seen Foreverhers shove his religious views down someone's throat. Maybe you can provide a link or two that would show me where that happened. Maybe I just didnt read that part.

It is not shoving anything down someone's throat if a Christian asks for advice, and another Christian gives the Biblical answer to that question.

Again, if someone isnt a Christian on here, you dont see me saying much about the "religious" component of all of this. If they ask, then I do respond. But otherwise, I stick to the question at hand.

But a Christian that wants the answer needs the Biblical answer FIRST. That is ALWAYS the right answer. As a brother in Christ to my fellow believers, it is my responsibility to let my fellow brothers and sisters know what the Lord is saying and to caution them when they are out of God's will. As it is for all of you to keep me on the narrow road.

As far as I know of, ForeverHers has done the same. So, if you have some examples of him forcing religion on someone, please post here so I can check them out. Thanks.

Oh, and I do agree that if you are seeking the Lord in a problem (like the one you listed here) and you are going to your priest, close Christian friends, etc, then there is no problem with it being kept at that level. But if it had been brought up here by you in order to receive help, then as a brother in Christ, I would have offered up what Scripture says. And there is nothing wrong in that, either.

In His arms.

I have no wisdom to add to this debate, just a personal experience.

I always considered homosexuality to be a perversion chosen by practitioners. A lifestyle. A sin.

Then I got a job working for a man who was gay. Lovliest man I ever met, we became intimate friends and I learned his story.

HATED being gay. Tried for the LONGEST time ot be straight. Girlfriends, even engaged to be married but could not find anywhere within him a sexual attraction to the female sex. His parents disowned him when he called off the wedding. His fiancee was broken despite his having been very honest with her throughout their time together. He was distraught.

Since then he has LONGED for a long term committed relationship, but such is rare in the gay world. He feels trapped in a sexuality he does not like but that he cannot deny.
He is very smart, analytical and emotionally articulate.

He smashed my previous clumsy view of homosexuality. If homsexuality is a sin then it is a sin within the very flesh and minds of gay people like my friend. Heterosexual relationships feel as alien to my friend as gay ones would to many of we straight people.

I am now unsure as to the nature of homsexuality.

I do not offer anything deduction from my experience, only my experience.

Back to the Eunuchs for a moment, the reference is about celibacy. Eunuchs protected the harems because they were celibate. And Jesus is making the point that some will sacrifice marriage to dedicate themselves to the church. It was not a reference to homosexuality.

Thanks Bob. It is welcome here.


And we do understand this. No one is saying that they do not have this in them and have these urges. And we do understand that it can and is often distressing.


He may have these feelings, but he can deny acting upon them. He is not an animal. If he is a Christian, then he has the power of Christ to overcome those urges. He is not trapped. I am a very sexual man. Have "needed" sex 4+ times a week for most of my adult life. Now, after my wife's affair was exposed, I went three years with 4 sexual interations with my wife. Not 4 in a week, 4 in a year. You dont think I had urges to hook up with someone? I had needs. I had never been without those needs being met. Believe me, it was VERY distressing. But, I did not act upon those needs. First, because I am not an animal and can make rational decisions that overcome my natural wants. Second, the Lord gave me everything I needed. So when I took those feelings of wanting to give up, or hook up, to Him...He provided me the strength to resist.

I now know that if my wife was paralyzed and we could never have sex again, I COULD go the rest of my life without it (did I just say that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />). Would I want to? No. Is it fair that I would have to? No. Do I have a choice? Absolutely. And so does the homosexual.


Could be.

In His arms.

Mortarman,

I was referring to ForeverHers' posts on the "Bisexual Husband Just Found Out" thread here on GQ, which I think is the reason why this entire thread was started. HTH.

I have read it. My issue is that I am having trouble seeing where FH forced anything on anyone. He expressed what the Bible says. And pretty matter-of-fact, also. So I am not sure what part of that thread you might be referring to where he was forcing religion on someone. If you can help me find that, I would very much appreciate it. Thanks.

In His arms.

Mortarman,

With all due respect, I'm not going to go back and pick apart and quote from that thread. In essence, ScaredinGA just happened to mention a Christian counselor, and FH's first post to her spewed his own religious interpretations, which I doubt the OP was looking for. I wouldn't have found FH's post very helpful, and many other posters on that thread agreed, including JL. Go back and refer to it if you'd like. I have to leave right now. Sorry.

Mortarman,

Thank you for all of your posts here, as always, your writing style has a way of ministering to me that I rarely have the priviledge of encountering. My husband and I have benefitted many times from the sage advice and explanations that you give here. I give thanks to God for the gift He has bestowed upon you in this way. Mr. Wondering and I have often "wondered" if you are currently studying to be a counselor or minister...are you? We believe that many would be blessed by your abilities in either compacity. If you and your wife are ever in Michigan or Georgia (we're moving there this spring/summer) or if we are ever in Virginia (that's where you are right?) he and I would so love to have dinner and get to fellowship with the two of you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ForeverHers

I sure hope that you didn't feel like I was part of what you refered to as "FH bashing" yesterday, that certainly wasn't my intention...I would feel just horrible if I made you feel that way...I look at you as one of my valued teachers here, and seriously was only trying to understand and state my fears regarding sending a believer into the hands of a non believer...Again, I would like to reiterate that I was not offended by your statements of the scriptural truth, I am NEVER offended by God's word...sometimes the written word of we humans conveys unintended tones...I will continue to learn from your vast knowledge of the scriptures...I thank you and God for that...


KaylaAndy

In one of your posts, you said...


Do you take meds for Bipolar Disorder/manic depression? I would really like to "hear" your story about this particular struggle. My father has BPD, and chose not to take the meds until about a year ago, to the detriment of himself and my family. I am always interested in learning more about this illness, if you wouldn't mind sharing...if you would rather not post, you can contact me at the email address in my signature...I would appreciate your insight...



AR

If you are still lurking, please refer to Mortarman's post to you regarding my feelings about your level of compassion...

Also, I was surprised to "hear" you say that my reference to Satan "scared" you...it is my understanding that as an atheist, you don't believe that Satan exists...shouln't be scary to you at all, right?

In one of your posts to ScaredinGa's thread, you said...


What made you turn from God? Education is a great thing, unless you allow it to mislead you...what exactly made this happen in your life? I won't try to talk you out of it, you've made it clear that that isn't possible...I would really just like to know...start your own thread, I promise I won't post to you on it if you so desire...

Thanks to all on this thread for the open discussion...


Mrs. Wondering

Yes, Mortarman – I understand what you’re trying to say and I can see where this logically leads. It make much sense. Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mortarman, I think you have misunderstood me. Please read again what I’ve posted in my previous post:

” I consider pedophile behavior evil and from the devil. I can’t say the same about homosexual orientation though because I know some people become homosexual orientated as a direct result of the behavior of pedophiles”

AND

” Please note I was talking about sexual orientation & identity in the above context, not ACTING on those urges and impulses. There is a difference.”

Mortarman, as you can see I was talking about homosexual orientation & identity – not ACTING on the impulses and give into a homosexual lifestyle (which are clearly prohibited by God.) Therefore I believe ACTING on homosexual urges and impulses are wrong and sinful but not the homosexual orientation itself (because sexual orientation is not a choice). The homosexual orientation ONLY becomes sinful when ACTING on those feelings and becoming a practicing homosexual.

Mortarman, it’s true that God condoned no sin, but I don’t agree that he view all sins as equal and that sins can’t be ranked. Let me explain why I’m saying this by differentiate between mental and physical adultery:

Both mental and physical betrayal are very wrong and sinful, but with physical betrayal and intercourse, you actually take it one step further. Sexual betrayal and adultery is a process which originally start as a thought and temptation – then the person give in and start to dwell on the thought – then take it further and start to have sexual fantasies and get pleasure out of it – and the last stage is acting and actually having sex with a person outside marriage. When one actually gave in and having sexual intercourse outside marriage, you sin against your own body according to script.

Now, the more severe and serious the sins we commit here on earth, the more serious and severe the consequences thereof… And of course the consequences and damage of physical sexual intercourse (including guilt, shame etc.) is much more severe than for mental betrayal. For example, my involvement with FOM never progressed to a physical level or to full EA, but I did have impure thoughts and fantasies about him… These thoughts were very damaging to the relationship with my H, my relationship with my God, the way I felt towards myself, my self-esteem, my spiritual and emotional well-being etc, etc.… I paid a high price for all this and the damage was huge, BUT I know should I have physical contact or actually had sex with FOM, that would have made things much worse for everyone concerned….

Another example I want to use to illustrate this is something else: murder. It’s possible to feel so mad and outrageous if someone act a certain way, that we can actually think and feel like killing that person. If this happens, you actually commit “murder in your heart” according to Jesus standard, but do the thoughts of killing the person make you a real murderer? I don’t think so. It doesn’t minimize the fact that you HAVE committed a sin against God and another person with the evil thoughts, but you haven't committed the same 'level' and 'severity' of sin than a real murderer who have actually physically killed somebody.

The above is another example why I think there is different “scales” of sins and I do think in God’s eyes not all sins are equal. I recall somewhere in the Bible God talks about the 7 deadly sins, so this is an example where God DO view certain sins bigger than others. I have also read in the Apocrypha Books (the books taken out of the Bible years ago after Jesus’s life here on earth) about the different specific punishments unrepentant sinners will receive for certain sins in h e l l - and certain sins will receive greater punishments than other. And out of this I’ve made the assumption that God DOES differentiate certain sins from others in ‘level’ , ‘scale’ and ‘severe ness’.


Mortarman, I have concerns about the response you have posted to Bob above, so please allow me to share my concerns to you and please know what I want to say to you, I mean well and in a good spirit (from one Christian to another):

Not all people and Christians are equally strong Mortarman… Maybe YOU are a very strong and mature person emotionally and spiritually at this point of your life because of your faith in Christ, but it’s not to say that EVERYONE is at your level yet. If you are so strong and mature and secure in your faith in Christ that you KNOW you would be able to do without sex for the rest of your life should the circumstances should ask for it, you can’t just ASSUME that others WILL and HAVE to do the same… Other Christians don’t necessarily have the same strength, maturity, determination and self-discipline through Christ than YOU on this point of their lifes. Remember, some Christians are still “babies” in their spiritual and religious lifes and in their personal relationship with Christ and their main struggle is to “get” where you probably are in your spiritual life, so in a sense, Christians who are at the beginning or middle of their spiritual and religious journeys ARE “trapped” in some way until they have fully matured in their spiritual and religious lifes. And you, as a “mature” or “elder” Christian can’t tell the others what they will be able to do until they haven’t arrived at your level yet… Sometimes the “mature” or “elder” Christians don’t have patience for the struggles and problems of the “baby” or “adolescent” Christians, but this is the wrong attitude. And Mortarman, I think you must be very careful to say that should the circumstances ask for it, you COULD go the rest of your life without sex… You can’t say it until you have actually BEEN there. And the fact that you could resist for 3 years, doesn’t say that you WILL definitely be able to do it for the rest of your life. It’s easy for someone to say who haven’t been IN the situation. You can’t compare yourself to the man in Bob’s post simply because you are not in his situation and you don’t have a clue how it must feel for that man to stay celibate for his WHOLE LIFE and resist his sexual urges and impulses. Your 3 years of almost no sex is NOTHING compared to a LIFETIME of celibacy to that man who didn’t choose to be homosexually orientated.

Please don't see what I've said above as a personal attack on you. It's not and I DO mean it in good spirit. I also value and appreciate your contributions to these boards. Thanks for the discussion.

I’m going to sleep now (it’s 10:45 in my country), so I will post again tomorrow.

Blessings,
Suzet

Buttercup, I get really weary of this sort of nonsense. If you will take the time to go back to the thread you are all "worked up" about you will see that I quoted NOT ONE verse of Scripture TO ScaredinGA.

I DID quote Scripture directly to ManinMotion in answer to his post, directed directly at me.

We are having what seemed to be fairly "civilized" and "adult" conversation on SUZET's thread, regarding her questions, and along comes Buttercup slinging mud again.

I have to admit, you may get your wish. I am really weary of "fighting the fight" and the "warrior" is getting tired of the "battle."

It's "okey dokey" for anyone BUT a committed, evangelical, Christian to spout anything they want. But heaven help anyone who simply says "Christians should obey God" first.

For the last time, go back and read what I posted TO ScaredinGA, and my leaving her to HER chosen course when she chose an atheist for consultation for whatever reason she wished. I would admonish ANY Christian to seek TRAINED Christian counseling. There is NOTHING that says a Christian Counselor "Can't" counsel on the issue of homosexuality, UNLESS you want to make the assumption that choosing a homosexual lifestyle is "okay," regardless of what God has said about it.

There was even a poster who posted a link to an article (which I read but did not comment on) that was decidedly PRO liberal "Christianity" and substituting personal "feeling" for clear exegisis of the text. Twisting and turning Scripture to suit their personal agenda. Gagonon, for cyring out loud! What sort of biblical "truth" would you expect from him. The Unitarian Universalist Church as a key proponent...a totally apostate church still claiming to be "Christian."

Frankly, I tire of the "war." Were it not for a few folks who hold Christ dear, I would "walk away" in a heartbeat taking the advice to "not cast pearls...."

But Buttercup, I am really disappointed the you choose to not get your facts straight before you launch a personal attack.

Buttercup, I "quote Scripture" when it's appropriate and especially when someone tries to support opinion that is direct contradiction of what is written in the Scripture.

If you don't like what Scripture says, you don't have to read it. There are many who don't want to read it, there are many who want to twist into whatever they want it to be, including some who have denied that Scripture is inspired by God.

Enough.

Eaglesoar – Okay, let’s see if we can clarify this a bit. Do YOU consider yourself a “glutton,” interested only in food and nothing else? Or perhaps you are “overweight,” whatever that might mean to you (I am “overweight for my height” also), because you are more muscular (muscle weighs more than fat) or you don’t like exercise and don’t burn enough calories to avoid storing fat (my problem).

I agree with you that the church should not “single out” homosexuality as the “only sin” when considering someone for membership. There are churches that require membership classes before being accepted into membership and there are churches that accept people into membership solely upon a profession of faith. When it comes to open and willful sin, despite what the Scripture says, I would suggest that membership should be delayed until such time as the sin is repented of (turned 180 degrees away from) and there is evidence of the sincerity of the commitment to “leave what was a ‘life of sin’” in humble obedience to God’s commands. Let’s also be “reasonable” if we may that there ARE distinctions we make about the “severity” of some sins. While ALL sin is anathema to God, some sins can be “covered over with love” while other sins require more, as in dealing with the consequences and restoration over time. A married person, for example, who was actively engaged in adultery would likewise be “not recommended” for membership at that time if it became known that such behavior was going on. Certainly someone engaged in adultery would most likely NOT be the one to confess such activity and could gain membership “under false pretenses.” Think of it like the question asked at most marriage ceremonies, “If there be anyone who has just cause that this couple should NOT be joined in holy matrimony, let them speak now or forever hold their peace.” Suppose one of the participants in the marriage ceremony were ALREADY married. Shouldn’t they be denied marriage AT THIS TIME? If they were married and it was later discovered that they were living in willful disobedience of the laws against bigamy, shouldn’t they be “put out” until such time as they repented and “made things right?’

I would further submit that if someone was in a membership in a local body of believers and were sincerely trying to “follow Christ,” there would be “accountability partners” there to help when needed, but unless a willful choice to engage in sin regardless of what God had to say, the “discipline” would not become known “church-wide” unless a steadfast refusal to repent was encountered. Once the leaders of the church become aware of known, and willful, sin, it is their responsibility to protect the flock and not “condone” such activity by ignoring it or taking no action or not holding someone accountable for their choice to disregard God and sin anyway.

Let’s take it out of the realm of “sexuality” for a minute and look at it from another standpoint. Should someone be allowed membership, or not held to church discipline if they are already a member, who denies that Jesus Christ is God the Son incarnate and that he was physically resurrected from the dead? What if they chose to deny Christ because it “interfered” with their own personal “wants and desires?” Should they be “tolerated” in the body of believers and “no big deal?”

Consider the Churches in Revelation. Christ speaks to each of them and there is “warning” in much of what is said.

God bless.

Mortarman – Amen! Could not have said it better myself…smile. Thank you.

Alot here Suzet...let me dig in. And I first want to say that I do take your posts as a sincere discussion. There is no offense taken!!



I dont disagree here.


I understand what you are saying. And in strictly a worldly view, you are correct. But, your assumption is not Biblical. First off, what is the penalty for ANY sin, no matter how severe? The penalty that is issued by God? Isnt it not eternal damnation...death? So, the thief ends up i nthe same place as the pedofile. The "spiritual" atheist who did great humanitarian works in his life but never accepted Jesus ends up in the same place as the pedofile.

You see, man wants to look at sin the way man wants to look at it. We want to see "fairness" and "compassion." But God would not be fair and would not be holy if He did not punish sin.

As a Christian, we all know that every human has fallen short of the glory of God. We cannot even stand in His presence, while a heathen. Why? It is because even one sin makes us a sinner. And He is perfect, He is holy. It is like darkness and light. The darkness is obliterated in the presence of light. And we too would be obliterated just standing in the very presence of God in our sins. That is why we need a mediator, someone to make us sinless again. And that person has to have both the attributes of God AND the attributes of man. And Jesus turned out to be that person.

So, in order to go before the throne of God boldly and not be obliterated by His very presence, we have to be washed by the blood of Christ and become sinless. Without that, I do not care how minor or major the sin is on this earth...it receives the EXACT same penalty as any other sin that has not been paid for by Jesus Christ.

So, my ascertain still stands. On earth, sins are scaled. But in Heaven, all sins have the same penalty. The issue is who pays that penalty...Christ or us?


Okay, I do not need to have been in his shoes to understand this man's struggle. Just as others can understand mine. I understand what you are saying about baby Christians and spiritual growth. I do. I understand those less mature in their faith will stumble more often. But that does not change the fact that EVERY Christian has the power to not sin. Everyone. As a "mature" Christian, I have the same access and same power from Christ as a baby Christian. The issue isnt one of access, it is one of knowing that you have access and how to access it. That is why the church has elders. Why mature Christians are to come alongside baby christians and help them learn how to access the power they already possess.

Thus, the homosexual, who maybe was born with this urge, absolutely has the power to overcome those urges tonight.

When I say that I know I can go the rest of my life celibate if that is what is required, I do not say that lightly. You all have no idea how much SF is a need for me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I know that I can be celibate because I know that I have the power of the Holy Spirit within me to do so. Now, I might not listen and use that power. But that is because I choose not to listen. I choose not to find the power, to find the truth. I choose to remain in my sins.

Every Christian gets that choice everyday in a confrontation with a possible sin. And there is never an excuse with God for not accepting His power and overcoming that sin. Jesus didnt say to the woman at the well "Well, I know that you now have 5 husbands, so I ask you to please try to refrain from this behavior." No. What did He say Suzet? He said "Go, and sin no more." Jesus would not have said that if He didnt think that she was capable of going and sinning no more. He didnt sugarcoat it or pat her on the head. He just told her like it was, and gave her the choice of sinning no more, or continuing her destructive ways.


I keep saying this...but I will do so again. There is a difference between simple and easy. Our problems and sins are very simple to address. But most of the time, addressing them is NOT easy. It is very simple to get saved and follow Jesus Christ. But many times, it is not easy. It is very simple not to cheat on my wife...just keep from taking my clothes off and rolling around with another woman. But sometimes, that simple thing is not easy.

I have no doubt the homosexual finds his or her position very difficult. It aint easy. But the way that God wants them to go is VERY simple.

I hope that clarifies things.

In His arms.

I for one, do not buy into the view that a loving, faithful, monogamous, same-gender relationship is immoral.


Allow me to quote from Reverend Kathryn Timpany:
"I am a Christian, and the Bible is authoritative for my life in the faith, but it is not authoritative for me the way it is fro some others. It functions for me as a kind of family scrapbook, being a collection of many books by many quthors on many topics written in many styles addressing many different concerns over many hundreds of years.
It is, as such, only a partial record of the life of God with the people of God. It is neither complete nor inclusive. It reveals something, but not all things, of God's will for God's people.....
..... And there is the example of Jesus himself, who, when asked which were the most important of all the laws in the Levitical puritay code, responded by quoting these two: you shall love God with all your heart and mind and soul and strenght, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All other laws and the writings of the prophets were to be understood througth the lens of these two, he taught."

And to quote from Homosexuality and the Bible: Two Views, by Dan Via and Rober Gagnon. These are the words of a gay man who also happens to be a distinguished New Testament scholar: "Any interpretation of scripture that hurts people, oppresses people, or destroys people cannot be the right interpretation, no matter how traditional, historical, or exegetically respectable. There can be no debate about the fact that the church's stand on homosexuality has caused oppression, lonliness, self-hatred, violence, sickness and suicide for millions of people.
"If the church wishes to continue with its traditional interpretation it must demonstrate, not just claim, that it is more loving to condemn homosexuality than to affirm homosexeuals.
"can the church show that same-sex loving relationships damage those involved in them? Can the church give compelling reasons to believe that it really would be better for all lesbian and gay Christians to live alone, without the joy of intimate touch, without hearin a lover's voice when they go to sleep or awake?
"Is it really better for lesbian and gay teenagers to despise themselves...?
"Is it really more loving for the church to continue its worship of "heterosexual fulfillment" (a non-biblical concept, by the way) while consigning thousands of its members to a life of either celibacy or endless psychological manipulations that masquerade as "healing?"
....
"What will build the double love of God and of our neighbor?

Losttranslation, thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Losttranslation, IMHO a loving, faithful, monogamous, same-gender relationship is not immoral or wrong as long as it doesn’t include sex or sexual acts with the partner… God say it’s wrong for two men or women to “lay together” - in other words, having sex with one another. But sex doesn’t necessarily have to be part of a same-sex relationship. Therefore, IMO, a same-gender relationship ONLY becomes wrong, sinful and immoral if the couple ACT on their sexual impulses and have contact of a SEXUAL NATURE with each other. Note that I don’t consider non-sexual touch and showing of affectionate touch (like hugs, kisses (not intimate/French kisses), loving touch etc.) to be wrong between a same-sex couple who are homosexually oriented. If you check back on this thread, you will see I’ve quoted the following from a book (which is also my own personal POV):

[color:"blue"] The first Swiss Christian-psychiatrist, Theodor Bovet, has written in Sinnerfultes Anders-sein (to live meaningful as a homosexual) that love for the same sex don’t have anything to do with morality. Within his/her life context, the homosexual can live just as morally or immorally as the heterosexual within his/her own orientation.[/color]

AND I’ve also posted the following yesterday:

” Also keep in mind that two homosexual people who enter into an intimate relationship with each other and live together, don’t necessarily have to be sexual with each other and practice the “sexual act”. An intimate relationship involves much more than just “sex” and “sexual intimacy”. People tend to think that homosexual relationship is just about sex. So now I ask myself:

Where does one draw the line? What did God mean when He said two men and two women are not allowed to “lay together”? Was he only talking about sexual interactions or did He refer to the relationship as a whole? WHAT IF 2 homosexual orientated people decide to stay together and have an intimate relationship on all other areas than sex? (In other words, if they have emotional intimacy and show affection to each other, but exclude “sexual acts” from their relationship)? Is such type of involvement also prohibited by God? So, are homosexual orientated people not allow to have ANY type of intimate involvement (on other areas than sex) with someone of the same sex at all? So are they not allowed to have an intimate relationship and be life partners on friendship and emotional level with another same sex person at all? WHAT IF it's possible for the two homosexual partners to love each other in an intimate relationship but stay "celibate" (where the loving, faithful, monogamous, same-gender couple withhold themselves from each other on sexual level)? Will the church just automatically assume that 2 homosexual people who are living together and show affection to each other, also have a sexual involvement and as a result abandon them from church? WHAT IF these people are condemned and abandoned from church while they ARE stay "celibate" within the relationship but no one believes them?

I ask all these question to give people something to think about and show them that this issue is not just black and white and as clear cut as it seems on the surface…”

Lossttranslation, I do believe it’s possible for a loving, faithful, monogamous, same-gender couple to have a fulfilling relationship without having any sexual contact with each other. I think with the help and power of Christ, such a couple can stay “celibate” within the relationship and don’t give into a homosexual lifestyle with each other. I believe it is not homosexuality itself which is a crime against God, but the homosexual practises and acts (having homosexual sex). There is other parts of the relationship (like friendship, emotional intimacy etc.) a same sex-couple can focus on and embrace. Therefore, I don't think a homosexual orientated person necessarily have to lead a single & lonely life. There is a “middle-ground” and I think celibacy within a loving and nurturing long-term relationship between a same gender-couple can probably be the answer to gay orientated believers and Christians. The questions is, will the church and Christians show understanding and insight for such type of “celibate relationship” between a same-sex couple or will such a couple yet again be judged and condemned?

I would like to hear other’s opinions on this...

Thanks for your thorough response yesterday Mortarman. I appreciate the time & effort you take to respond and offer your contributions to this thread. Your last post did clarify things for me although I still don’t completely agree with you on the topic of “scaling” of sins. But I guess that’s a topic for another discussion for another day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I want to use this opportunity to thank EVERYONE for the open discussion and the contributions on this thread so far. It’s good to have a “civil” and “adult” discussion about such a sensitive and controversial topic. Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will see if I can find the time today to translate the other stuff about homosexuality and Christianity from the book I’ve posted from on Tuesday. I will send it as soon as it’s finished. Translation is not one of my strongest points so it might take some time. Please bear with me.

Blessings to all,
Suzet

Well, research and studies have shown that homosexual orientation can have a biological/genetic origin as well and therefore homosexual orientation CAN be called a “birth defect” in this regard. An inability to connect with the opposite sex because of the gay orientation will make marriage and sexual relationships with the opposite sex impossible. As Bob said, heterosexual relationships feel as alien to gay people as homosexual ones would feel to many of we straight people. That’s why Bob’s friend has called off the wedding and relationship with his fiancée – because he couldn’t find anywhere within him a sexual attraction to the female sex…

I 100% agree that it is the ACTIONS which is wrong. And you are correct that Biblically there is nothing wrong with sexless life, but please note that celibacy itself is an exceptional spiritual calling: In principal a distinctive supernatural existence and way of living (refer to Matthew 19:12). Human sexuality is undeniable...also the sexuality of gay orientated people.

Edited to add:

Becontent, you’ve said:

“I would agree in that we can have any sexual orientation or tendency we want…”

I don’t understand why you’ve said that people can have any sexual orientation or tendency they want because it’s simply not true. People can’t choose their sexual orientation or tendencies. Most gay orientated people don’t WANT to be this way. But I agree they don’t have to ACT on their orientation or tendencies.

Just wanted to make this clear.

The definitions in which I have posted ALL refer to NOT have the sexual organs, and that is what I was referring to in my term of Birth Defects (trying to PC here). As far as I know, homosexuals have ALL of their sex organs and have no physical birth defects. There is a medical term for those born with both sex organs and without them, but I am not going to take the time to look them up.

I would be very concerned about the homosexual being okay with having a physical, intimate relationship without sexual intercourse. The Bible tells us we can commit adultery by lust, so I would be afraid that we could "lay with a man" by lust, desire, or thoughts. There are more scriptures about thoughts and the mind causing us to sin.

JMHO

The clearest Bible teaching I know of on the subject of homosexuality is the first chapter of Romans:



What I get from this is that a person does not choose to become homosexual, but becomes so as a result of a series of choices.

I understand what you are saying, but please note I've said that such a couple should exclude ALL sexual contact from their relationship (not just the sexual intercourse). Of course someone can commit a sin just by lust, desire and thoughts but that's why it's up to the person to search his/her heart and pray for wisdom, power and strenght in this regard. Of course it will not be advisable for such a couple to share a bed becaue it can tempt them to sin. But I don't think it can be expected from gay orientated people to no have ANY loving, caring and long-term relationships in their lifes at all (which of course will have to exclude any contact of a sexual nature).

Mortarman - I understand. I was celibate for the entire 6 years of my wife's affair. I CHOSE that versus "insisting" or "forcing" myself on her OR choosing to "get my needs met extramaritally." Easy? No way. "...or for worse?", yes, as I honored my marital vows and God's commands. There was NO "grey area" there that I could see....

Could I do it again? Yes, if circumstances (like paralysis for example) made it necessary. But also with this disclaimer regarding the "choice" of celibacy...if my wife were to choose adultery again, I would end the marriage. Even if she repented, I would forgive the sin, as required by God, but I would not continue the marriage after a SECOND willful choice of adultery, "proving that the first 'repentance' would have been a lie and that surrendering her life (and desires and wants, etc.) to God was a self-serving falsehood. Since I could not, and cannot, KNOW her heart other than through what I observe as "obedience or disobedience" to God's commands, I would choose to NOT put myself into the position of more years of pain and uncertainty. I would still love her, but I would choose to not live with her. I understand and believe in Jesus' command to forgive "seventy times seven times," and I would, but I also do not have to be married to forgive anymore than I need to be "friends" with someone who has sinned against me and been forgiven, if you understand the distinction I am making.

In the face of sin, especially sin that we, ourselves, recognize in ourselves, it is up to us to CHOOSE to be obedient to God no matter what we are feeling or what society may opine about it being "normal." For Christians, God's law SHOULD supercede human societal "law" or "acceptable behavior" whenever there is a "conflict" between the two. God is Sovereign, not Man. "Sin," and what is Sin, is defined by God, not by Man and is most definitely NOT defined by what is "Politically Correct."

God bless.

Smidgen, of course people can become homosexual because of a series of wrong and sinful choices. I don't deny that and I know such things also exist. Basically in this script above you've quoted, the issue was not so much about homosexuality, but about rebellion/sin against God. Those people deliberatly wanted to sin and go against the will of God…and as a result they have started to do homosexual practices and became homosexual.

But this thread is not about such people... This thread is not about people who have become homosexually orientated because of wrong and sinfull choices and/or rebellion against God… No, this thread is about people who are gay orientated as a result of biological, psychological and/or social factors in the early years of their lifes... It’s about people who didn’t choose to be this way and people who didn’t commit a sin/action which caused them to be this way.

In Bob’s example his friend is gay orientated and don’t have ANY sexual attraction towards the opposite sex…yet he had never acted or gave in to his homosexual urges and impulses.

Suzet, okay, let's think about this a little. I get the sense that you are arguing for "political correctness" instead of "Creator correctness." I am pretty sure I understand the "distinction" you are trying to draw between "practicing" and "not practicing" homosexuals, and have no argument with that. But let's look at the difficult task we are faced with, in general, and NOT in the specific case of "one" individual or "one couple."

Homosexuality is an "abomination" according to God. Practitioners of that "lifestyle" will not be in heaven, by God's decree, not mine.

So what does that have to with your statement? "Judged," yes. "Condemned, no." We HAVE to "judge," to "discern the truth," as per God's command to "test the spirits," etc.

So the sincerity of the repentance and surrender of the homosexual INDIVIDUAL would need "outward" indication, through their "chosen" lifestyle, that they had indeed surrendered to God and "denied self," where "self" would lead to agregious sin against God, their Creator.

Though I don't happen to agree with the Roman Catholic Church's stance that ALL priests must be celibate, they do illustrate this idea of NOT living with temptation in separating Priests and Nuns. They don't "live together" even though they have both chosen to not "act" on normal desires for the "opposite sex." The implicit corrollary with putting MEN together and WOMEN together in separate facilities is that homosexual activity of any kind is FORBIDDEN by God. THAT(opposite sex attaction) is the "normal" state, "same-sex" desires is the "abnormal" and condemned by God as an "abomination."

Homosexuality, along with every other sin, entered the world through the sin of Adam and Eve. WHAT was that "original sin?" It was the same sin that Lucifer committed...the sin of putting personal pride and desire ahead of simple obedience to God, no matter what we happen to be feeling. It was placing "self" and "human concepts" of our "desire" as being 'politically correct' and, therefore, "god" to us rather than the one true God, or in other terms, idolatry of the self. As is often tritely quoted, "Pride goeth before the fall." It IS placing "self" ahead of God that begins, and perpetuates, the "problem,", the "sin(s)" if you will.

What you said is what I'd like us to think about. "I think celibacy within a loving and nurturing long-term relationship between a same gender-couple can probably be the answer to gay orientated believers and Christians."

How long should we "remain" in a situation, or exposed to a situation, or have access to something, that we KNOW resulted in temptation that we could not resist in the past? Should a drug addict keep drugs around the house because they have "chosen" not to do drugs anymore? Should someone previously addicted to Pornography, keep Pornography all around the house, daily visible and within "arms reach," just because they have agreed that to actually "think about it" or to actually "partake of it" is a sin and they have chosen to "Forsake" that former life of sin?

Should the partner in Adultery be kept around for "innocent contact" in the future? Should we still consider, though not "act upon," this "forbidden by God person" to be our "soulmate," or is God and our rightful spouse our true "soulmate?" Is "giving up" the person you were sinning with sometimes "hard" emotionally? Ask any WS who has gone through Withdrawal. The "tendrils" of sin are deep and can cause longterm pain and difficulty. Yet for those who have "come out the other side," they usually see the "false love" for what it was....sin, and now feel "freed by the Grace of God" and "in love" as God originally intended it.

Or is the "best course" in "forsaking" previous weakness and sin to acknowledge that, once a choice FOR God has been made, to embrace the idea that there ARE now places you can no longer go, people you can no longer see, books you can no longer read, things you can no longer allow yourself to be exposed to, etc.?

In the case of the "couple" you are using as an example, two points for consideration.

1. As in any couple, there is no way to KNOW what is going on in the mind of the "partner," be that your wife, husband or homosexual partner. They MAY be totally committed to celibacy or they may be only "acting" that way to satisfy your "requirement" for staying with them.

2. This "couple" you are "granting" the equivalence of Marriage. They are NOT married, as marriage is between one MAN and one WOMAN. "Accepting" such a "living arrangement," though perhaps "politically correct," could very easily be like the old Arab warning to "not let the camel's nose into the tent or before long the whole camel will be in the tent."

I would submit that for a "couple" as you described, the "best" course of action for a loving Christian church would be to recommend that they NOT live together and NOT attend the same church. There are more than one solid, bible believing, churches in most places, and helping "remove" the object of temptation from constant exposure would be a logical "first step" in helping someone to overcome and remain away from the particular "sin desire" that they are battling.

Okay, then, why not apply the same "thought" to a repentant Wayward Spouse and Faithful Spouse? Because they ARE the marital unit that God ordained, one man and one woman. The "lusts of flesh" are fulfilled without sin IN a marriage of one man and one woman and the temptation of "another person" IS removed from the scene. In the event that the OP might also attend the same church, it would be my opinion that either the OP or the couple would be "best served" by finding separate churches to attend and not be a "constant reminder" of the sin that happened.

Again, this is NOT "judging" in the sense of "condemning someone." This is "judging" both as God has commanded us to do and "common sense" that you don't keep things around that are known sources of potential sin through our weaknesses.

We, as Christians, need to be both sensitive to the struggles of sinners wishing to "overcome" and be obedient to God as well as simultaneously STANDING in the breech, facing the masses arrayed against God if necessary, in support and defense of GOD's commands, no matter how society or self-serving humans wish to twist and malign God's clear directives. God is Sovereign and we are "bought and paid for 'slaves' of God" by Jesus Christ. We are no longer "our own," we are the "bride of Christ." The two shall no longer be "two," but "one."

That is the essence of Sanctifiction of all sinners, to become more Christ-like in our maturity and our walk with God.

God bless.

Okay Suzet, let me "extend your logic" to "another sin" that most people don't like to talk about....a "woman's right to choose abortion."

Under what circumstances does God say it is "okay" to kill an innocent child?

Where does one "draw the line" or "accomodate" sin because of the "if's, but's, and maybe's?"

What often seems to make "human sense" does not always "jibe" with "God's sense." In the case of MOST abortion, it's for selfish convenience. In the case of most homosexual feelings, it for the same reason.

Now we can wrestle with the relatively few "legitmate" areas of discussion, but in ALL cases, it is God's "opinion" that takes precedence over "human opinion" whether we like or not. But humans have a tendency, inherited from Adam and Eve, to place "human reason" above God's commands anytime God's commands seem to be telling us "no."

Wisdom and discernment, combined with loving concern, for what GOD has to say about any given "moral issue," is the "best way" to address those "relatively few" diffucult issues.



Aren't you arguing, in essence, for the "camel's nose" sort of thing? You want to "limit" strong sexual desire to just a "gentle, kiss your sister" sort of buss? You place a pretty expectation upon one's ability to "resist" temptation placed before them on a plate, every day, including "getting inside someones personal comfort zone." Have you never "responded" to your husband when at first his "innocent advances" might not have seemed like "that much?" Likewise he might have interpreted a "little gesture" by you as a "sign" that you "wanted more."

"Play with fire" long enough, and one is certain to get burned. "I understand what you are saying, but please note I've said that such a couple should exclude ALL sexual contact from their relationship (not just the sexual intercourse). "

It would seem the prudent thing to do would be to acknowledge that "ALL" means "ALL" and not try to put "relative weight" on a given sexual activity.

God bless.

ForeverHers, what you've said in both your posts above make perfect sense and explain things very well. Your posts was very insightful and helped to put certain things in perspective for me. Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I can see now that I've indeed argue for "political correctness" instead of "Creator correctness" although it wasn't my intention. I'm not a black and white person and I struggle to view & see things as such. I do belief there are many "grey" areas in life - and I don't think I WANT to view things as black and white. But on this point of the discussion, I can see and agree that there can be no "middle-way" with certain things in life.

God bless,
Suzet

lost translation - It is obvious that you don't consider homosexuality to be immoral and it is equally obvious that you choose to apply "selective" interpretation to what is CLEARLY revealed in the Scripture. It does not matter that God has NOT revealed "everything about everything" in the Scripture, that is His prerogative. What IS important to us is what God HAS revealed and what God's commands and "opinions" ARE.

You are practicing exegetical nonsense with the above sort of quotation, embracing the self-serving opinion of an admitted homosexual OVER the truth of God's revealed Word.

Let's look at that quotation in the light of what is TRUTH, not selfish man's opinion, if you are up to an honest and open examination of the text of Scripture and not just looking to "pick a fight."

"Any interpretation of scripture that hurts people, oppresses people, or destroys people cannot be the right interpretation, no matter how traditional, historical, or exegetically respectable.

Extending the "logic" of this statement, "No man comes to the Father but by me" (a rather clear, definitive, and inclusive of ALL people), is NOT to be taken literally even though God Himself (Jesus the Son) said it. Wouldn't you say that Jesus is being rather "offensive" to the masses? There is ONLY one way to salvation, and that way is through the NARROW gate that God Himself has established, and whether we "like" or "dislike" what God has established, GOD gets to set the "rules," not us. THAT is sure to be "offensive" to a lot of humans who want to be "sovereign" themselves. Just remember, God doesn't "Destroy" anyone. We are already "destroyed." God provides a "way out" of that destruction but it requires surrendering "self" to God, something our "pride" finds very difficult to do.

[color:"red"]"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."[/color]
He said to the crowd: [color:"red"]"When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and sky,. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?"[/color] (Luke12:49-57 NIV emphasis added)

lost translation, if you really want to examine the Scriptural text, we can do so. But we have to agree that the Scripture is authoritative, not merely a "collection" of nice stories. Paul was quite clear that ALL Scripture was given by inspiration of God so that HIS message would be clearly and consistantly given to us. If you wish to elevate human opinion, even when it stands in oppostion to Scriptural revelation, ABOVE God, then there is little basis for discussion and only room for "opposing viewpoints" of human reason or prejudice.

"If the church wishes to continue with its traditional interpretation it must demonstrate, not just claim, that it is more loving to condemn homosexuality than to affirm homosexeuals.

[color:"red"]"Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent."[/color] (Rev 3:19 NIV)
God condemns ALL sin, including homosexuality. God convicts us of sin AND lovingly provides the expiation of that sin in HIS way. It is offered in love, it is up to to us to accept or reject the offer.

[color:"red"]"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son (or his only begotten Son), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world though him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemened already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but the men loved darkeness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[/color] (John 3:16-21 NIV emphasis added)

God has already demonstated his love for us in Christ Jesus. "Truly, truly, I say unto you. NO ONE comes to the Father but by me." "There is but ONE NAME under heaven by which we are saved" and that name is Jesus, no matter how "offensive" that is to the "unsaved."

..... And there is the example of Jesus himself, who, when asked which were the most important of all the laws in the Levitical puritay code, responded by quoting these two: you shall love God with all your heart and mind and soul and strenght, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. All other laws and the writings of the prophets were to be understood througth the lens of these two, he taught."

Yes, that IS the example given to us by God the Son Himself. Love God and His Word more than anything (including human "political correctness"), and love your neighbors as God loves them....not by tolerating or excusing sin, but by delivering God's truth to them so that "they can either choose God" or "be without excuse."

Lastly lost translation, I would strongly encourage you to read Jesus' comments to the various Churches in the book of Revelation. They are sobering and clear and the opinion and warning of Him who counts above all else....Jesus.

They stand as testimony to all churches who profess belief in Jesus Christ to "examine thyself."

God bless.

No argument here FH!

In His Arms.

No, I have not studied to be a counselor or minister. I am involved with starting a new church in Northern Virginia, though. A good friend of mine went to Calvary Chapel's ministry school, and I am now helping him start a Calvary Chapel.

I also thank God for what He has allowed me to do. Believe me, much of what I write here surprises even me. I go back later on and say "Did I write that?" It has really helped me to stay close to Him, and I try to stay where I sign off each of these posts..."In His arms."

I do live in Northern Virginia and if you all ever pass through, then let me know. I am not scheduled to head to Georgia anytime soon, but if I do, I will look you all up. It would be great to sit down and meet and eat.

I have watched both of you help many on here. We are all just trying to obey Christ. But it is fun helping Him out, isnt it? Knowing that you are a part of something bigger, and that the God of this Universe allows me and you to be a part of His plan? Many times, I am awestruck...and sometimes feel unworthy. But I know Christ and God do not look at me that way. So, you guys keep up the good fight!

In His arms.

I have struggled with myself as to whether or not I should entangle myself in this debate. I am a Christian. I was reared in a Christian home, I attended a private Christian School all of my school years and I was a Sunday School teacher for 15 years. I think I have read the Bible quite a few times over the years and memorized numerous verses.

Many of you may not like what I have to say here...but I will say them anyway...

I read the Bible and believe its teachings. But....I also realize that the Bible was NOT written in God's handwriting. The scriptures over the years have been manipulated by man to control other men. I do not believe any of us are reading the original scripture in it's original form. How naive of us to accept that man would translate God's word exactly as it was originally written. Case in point...in the dark ages....priests would sell pardons for sins that had not even yet been commited. All in the name of God. Just because you do something in the name of God...does not mean that God approves of it.

The Bible gives us all as Christians a guideline as to how we should live our lives. I believe that God allowed this as part of our free will. He gave us the choice/responsibility to read the word and choose to live it as we understand it. If this is not the case, then why are there so many religions that believe differently but all claim to be Christians? I am a Methodist by choice, but I am not prepared to condemn all other religions to an eternity of flames because they do not agree with every aspect of my own belief. I believe that God will judge us according to our own standards. We call ourselves Christians...on judgement day, I believe God will ask...Did you live your life according to what you professed to believe?

Now...about homosexuality....I believe it is a sin. That is my choice to believe so...but it is not a sin that is any different than any other. The only unforgiveable sin is to not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior.

As a Christian, it is my responsibility to teach the word of God to those who may not know him. It is not my responsibility to remain after I have given testimony and see that the person is living as I think they should.
"Jugdement is mine, sayeth the Lord." If we choose to judge man...if we choose to take God's job....then we will be judged according to our own standards of judgement.

I will not attack anyone's oppinions here...but I have been quite incensed with some of them....but it is not my place to tell you that you are right or wrong...that is for God to decide....since I am not God I will choose to remain silent because I think it is a matter for Him.

I am a sinner. I am not homosexual. I have not killed anyone. But I am a sinner. My sins are no less great than any other sin. ALL sin is wrong in the eyes of God.

I cannot say for sure if homosexuality is a born straight, a choice, or a learned trait....I am not homosexual...I am not God....I cannot claim to know the heart and minds of man. I do however have homosexual friends. I do not agree with their lifestyle and they know this and respect my oppionions. As a Christian, I do not cast them aside. It is not my right to judge them. If I were to cast them aside, that would be my sin.....For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God....I love the sinner and hate the sin.

What if God had cast Saul aside for his sins against Christians? He didn't. He was there and Saul changed...he became Paul and gave us such wonderful, meaningful scripture.

I will not cast the first stone....I will not condemn someone for their way of life....God has given each of us the free will to accept him and believe in him. I live in a glass house....as do all sinners....we should not be throwing stones.

My husband is having an affair. I hate it with all of my being....I want it to end....I pray every night that it will....but it hasn't yet. The affair has hurt me enormously. My husband for doing it and the OW for doing it as well...ignoring my pleas to stop....but as much as I hate the pain and the hurt it has caused me...it has also made me stronger.

My husband has not asked my forgiveness nor has the other woman....I have forgiven them anyway....in my heart....I have forgiven....I still want it to end....and I am still dealing with my demons telling me that I should leave my husband because no end seems to be in sight...but I keep fighting....holding on....praying.....that God will lead me on the right course. I pray at night for myself, for my husband and for the OW....I am not God....they do not have to ask me to forgive....I have to ask God to forgive me...for the feelings of hatred that I have had in the past...and sometimes still do....I am not perfect and God does not expect me to be....but I do know this...in order for me to forgive myself and let go of my own sins I have to forgive as well....Jesus said....forgive my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me....

This has been a long post...but so much has really bothered me in this thread....

I guess the short of it is this....God is my master....he is the judge...he has given me commandments to live by....I tell others of him....I make my choices as do others...it is not my responsibility to make those people accept God...Jesus did not bully people into accepting him...he told of God's love and forgiveness....and he told us the wages of sin is death....of sin...not one in particular...of all sin.

FH,
Thanks for your reply. I believe the issue is whether or not an individual choosing to join a church accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior in their heart. They should confess their sins and actively seek to live a life according to God's Word. I believe I must have misinterpreted your posts to say that homosexuality in and of itself would preclude one from membership in a group of believers. My opinion is that homosexuality is a sin and to God, all sins are the same (see Mortarman's discussion of this point - his explanation is far more eloqent than mine could ever be). As such, if in his or her heart the homosexual renounces their life of sin, confesses to God, accepts Jesus as their Savior and then turns away from sin, they are saved and should be a welcome member in my congregation or any congregation.

As to this:


denying Jesus is the Son of God and not accepting Him as your Savior is the ONLY unpardonable sin.

Forevermore - you are quite welcome to say whatever you wish to say. I hope you will avail yourself of the opportunity to continue posting and discussing.

I understand your pain over your husband's affair, and I think I understand what you mean by your having "forgiven them" even though have not sought your forgiveness. Forgiveness, in the biblical sense, requires confession and repentance and, between fellow believers, is given IN RESPONSE to one who has sinned against you and repented (by Jesus' command to Peter).

There are many on MB who would willingly join with you in prayer for your marriage and for the end to your husband's affair, if you would like us to. But know that we will be praying for God's will in that matter anyway, because we are now aware of a need in the life of fellow believer.



Correct, it was written in the handwriting and style of the men God INSPIRED to write what He wanted communicated to us.


Also true. Men have many times attempted to twist, or even to rewrite, Scripture to support their own desires. That's an "indictment" of the men, not the Word of God.



We are not. To my knowledge NONE of the original texts are extant today and few of us are reading the Scriptures in their original languages either.


That the copying of the original texts and the care with which translations have been made is beyond question to anyone willing to actually examine the texts we have today with the historical texts that are available to us. If you are interested in looking at this for yourself, may I suggest a book called, Evidence That Demands A Verdict, by Josh McDowell, for a more extensive look at the historicity of the Bible text.


Amen!



Absolutely.



hmmm...many reasons, but one of the fundamental ones is pride. Another is choosing "human reason" over "God's clear revelation," and wanting to "err on the side of 'humanness' instead of 'godliness'."


Neither do I. But God also clearly tell us to "beware anyone preaching "any other gospel but the one He delivered."



That is true. We have God's creation, we have God's provision of Jesus Christ, and we are "without excuse."



No, I humbly disagree. God will ask us if we have received Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, not if we have somehow "earned" or "merited" salvation through any of our "good works." Our "works" done out of love for God and what Christ did for us SHOULD motivate us to try to live a more godly life, and we will receive, or not receive, some rewards from God based upon how we did "live in accordance with our profession of faith," but that is not the same thing as God asking us, on Judgment Day, WHY we should be allowed into eternity with Him.



Two points. First, God CHOSE Saul/Paul. God "elected" him the same as He elects all believers. Second, if "free will" can withstand the "elective call" of God, then Saul could have just as easily said something like, "Thanks, but no thanks. I am a top Pharisse and much better than just about everyone else. I am secure in doing things 'my way' and don't need you to tell me to something differently. I LIKE who I am and you would be asking me to change, to 'give up,' who I am!"


This is very true and couldn't have been said better.



Yep. Again very true and right on the money.



No one is asking, or advocating, that you "condemn" anyone or "attack" them. I would submit, however, that is your responsibility to "stand for God" whenever possible, and that includes discussion "differing" or "erroneous" interpretations of the Scripture. Remember, the "authority" for Christians SHOULD BE the Scripture, not personal opinion that might be contrary to the revealed Word of God.



This is good. Don't be afraid or reticent to bring up anything that might be bothering you. God is NOT afraid of our questions and it often THROUGH our questions that God is able to illuminate our understanding and bring answer to our questions. That's partly with the process of Sanctification is all about.


This is very true. And Jesus also called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers." We are not talking about "bullying" anyone, nor are we going to allow anyone to "bully" us. We STAND for God and His Word. It IS up to each individual to respond to God or to reject God. ONLY God Himself draws His elect to Christ. OUR "job" is to give witness and testimony for, and about, Jesus Christ and what God has revealed to us in His Word, not to "make anyone accept God."

God also told His disciples to "shake the dust off your shoes" when met with those who choose to reject. "They have Moses and the Prophets....."

God bless and keep posting.

Eaglesoar, I'm in complete agreement with your statement.

The "operative phrase" from Scripture ends with this truth: "...and such WERE some of you."


God bless.

Forever,

I am going to take this on. As I do, please do not take this as a personal attack on you. And at the same time, please do not think I am trying to ascertain whether or not you are saved. As always, our relationship with Christ is personal. So, with that said, let me get started.


I hope that you remember that all of those things do not make you a Christian, just as sleeping in a garage makes me a Ford. I dont think that is what you were saying, but just wanted to make sure. And I see that you have done a lot of studying on Scripture, so let's dig in to what you are saying.


Then why do you believe its teachings? If man wrote it and every word is not the inspired word of God, then why believe any of it? Because if you can decide what part is God's handwriting and what part is man's insertion, then why cant the next guy decide that different parts are of God? do you see what I mean. if the whole thing is not the truth, then the whole thing is a lie. Because neither you nor I nor anyone else would be able to ascertain what is truly from God.


Have you done any studying on hpw the Scriptures were written? First off, do you believe the Old Testament is true? Jesus did. All historical documents about Him testify to that. So, if jesus believed the Old Testament was from His Father, then that would mean that the only argument you might have is with the New Testament. That is, if you are a follower of Christ, which you have said you are.

There have been studies, findings, etc. over the many years, in order to prove parts of the Bible as wrong. Why? Because these people knew that to prove one part wrong would make the whole thing fall apart. Do you know something? No one at anytime has proven even one part of the Bible to be untrue. Not one part. Pretty remarkable considering a bunch of men wrote it.


You know, we have found parts of these books in caves and such. Guess what they found out? That the Bible I hold in my hand today is remarkably the same as the books written 2000 years ago. Sure, there might be a few differences in syntax. But the Bible I have today tells the same story God intended to tell in the beginning.


And just because some evil priests were doing this, does not mean that the Bible is not God-inspired.


We do not have the freewill to decide what we want to believe in the Bible and what we want to change. What about the "Christians" that believe that Jesus didnt literally rise from the dead? That is their "interpretation" from the Bible. By your reasoning, they would be just as correct as me saying that Jesus did rise on the third day. Forever, you cannot have it both ways. if we can interpret the Bible any way we want, then it really means nothing. We have that problem in America today. We seem to believe that our Constitution is a "living" document. What baloney. The Founders never believed that. What fool believes that a constitution that is living has any meaning? You see, if we can make up its meaning on a moments notice, then the document really has no meaning at all. And so goes it for the Bible.


That is most definitely NOT Christian...and I know the Methodist church does not preach that. I used to be a Baptist. Is that a different religion than a Methodist? No. Why? Because we are both Christians. What is a Christian? Is a Christian not a person who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior and has asked Him into their life and committed their life to be a bond servant of Christ? If so, then a Baptist, a Methodist, a Catholic...all are Christians if they have met that criteria. Now there are "Bapatists" or "Methodists" that most assuredly are not Christians.

Christ will not ask if we lived by what we professed to believe. If a Muslim believes something, Christ is not going to affirm that. Christ says that if you do not live by the word of His Father, then when you get to Heaven, He will say "I never knew you." He said the way to Heaven is a very narrow path. Not of our design, but of God's. Forever, your statement that it is our interpretation that God will judge us by is not only non-Biblical, it is not Christian.


Why? Remember, you said it is based o nthe individual's interpretation. Some might say that God never said that stuff...that it was just man trying to oppress the homosexual. Just using your logic here, Forever.


While true, I still ask...how do you KNOW that is the only unforgivable sin? Why do you say that you must accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Is that your interpretation? If so, then what if I interpret that to mean that it is okay to believe that, but that isnt the only way to Heaven. Why not? Remember, you said that God will judge us on our interpretation and how we live up to that. Which by the way means, that Jesus dying on the Cross was totally unneeded. A waste of time. Because if we can get to heaven any other way than thru Him, then He died needlessly. Shoot, if I am going to be judged on my perception and how I live up to it, then wouldnt I set the bar VERY low!


You just said it isnt the word of God, but a bunch of guys making things up or changing the word of God. So how do YOU know that you are teachign the word of God, as opposed to your opinion or some monk's opinion a thousand years ago?


True.


True. I have no problem with Christians judging. They shouldnt condemn, but they should judge. I have no problem with being held to the standards that I set for others. No Christian should have a problem with that!


What if God is telling you to speak, to stand up for Him? Some of us know that God is speaking through us. If He is trying to speak through you, why would you remain silent?


True.

[/quote]I cannot say for sure if homosexuality is a born straight, a choice, or a learned trait....I am not homosexual...I am not God....I cannot claim to know the heart and minds of man. I do however have homosexual friends. I do not agree with their lifestyle and they know this and respect my oppionions. As a Christian, I do not cast them aside. It is not my right to judge them.[/quote]

Yes it is. As a Christian, it is your right and your responsibility to judge. The word you are looking for is condemn. We have no right to condemn.


Okay. So should all Christians. I love the homosexual also, but hate the sin. And it is my responsibility to not only come alongside them and help, but also to point out where they are wrong. There is right and wrong, Forever. And if I know that a person is headed to their demise, it would be criminal for me to stand by and not say anything.


What is your point? No one is casting aside anyone, unless it is a Christian that is in rebellion and must be put out into the realm of Satan in order to be won. No one here was casting anyone out. Telling the truth is not casting someone out.


And no one here has thrown stones.


Absolutely!!


All true. And you are much better off by forgiving. I know how hard that is, too. It took me awhile to be able to forgive. But I am glad I have. Good point here, Forevermore.


I am not sure what it is that is really bothering you. If it is what the Bible says, then your problem isnt with this thread. If it is the people bringing Scripture in to help people understand the word of God, then again, your problem isnt with this thread.


Again, by your testimony above, how do you know these are Hid commandments?


As we have done here.


True.

Look Forevermore, I would suggest you get into a study on the veracity of the Bible. Lee Stroebel has a great series of books concerning all of this. Start with "A Case for Faith."

The Bible is the inspired word of God. If God is powerful enough to make the Universe, and also be involved in each of our lives, wouldnt He also be powerful enough to make sure these men wrote down exactly what He wanted them to write? Wouldnt He be powerful enough to make sure His word continued down thru the ages? Of course He would. Just because man has freewill does not mean God gave up his freewill.

God acts through Christians. That is the way He reaches the lost. If you have professed Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are called you spread the Good News, to judge rightly, and to give an accounting for your faith. Your faith isnt based on perceptions. It is based on facts, on truthes. Do not be embarassed or shirk from that, no matter wha tthe world tells you.

In His arms.

Brief threadjack -



Isn't it so incredibly hard to add the "God's Will" part in your prayer a lot of times. I have been praying for my husband to be cured from his colon cancer, but I don't think my "God's Will" part has really been sincere. I do pray for peace and comfort if healing is not his will, but that next sentence about his will being done really falls short.

He is having to be re-tested next week (a bad thing-at least scary), and I keep feeling it is because my faith is lacking or my prayers have not been sincere and "correct". My "Your will be done" is really lacking.

Back to the regularly scheduled program, but there is a lot of Christianity that IS JUST NOT EASY.

Mortarman...

My question to you in an earlier post was a serious one...my husband and I talked about it again last night...Are you studying to be a Christian Counselor or a Minister? If not, do you at least teach Sunday School? We so think that you would be great at any of those things...

Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to make all of your posts here...you'll never know just how much they teach us. Your ability to break things down to the simplest and most logical form is divinely inspired...I know that you know that...

I read an interesting "what if" about Heaven once...I'd like to share it with you...Wouldn't it be neat if when we got to Heaven we were given the opportunity to meet everyone that our given testimony had influenced to come to know Christ? The chance to see just how deep your Christian legacy ran...It would be set up as a receiving line of sorts...I think that that would be truly amazing, though it could present a dilemma for you...I'm just not sure that you would ever get to sit down! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If that does come to pass, luckily your heavenly legs could take it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Wondering and I will keep you in our prayers...we feel blessed to "know" you...

Sincerely,

Mrs. Wondering

No it is not. But remember, the One we follow didnt have it easy either. Should we expect less?

Good point.

In His arms.

becontent~

I'm glad you posted this...I just got off my knees in prayer for you and your family...I know that others here will do the same...Keep your focus on God, He knows what you need and understands your fears...Maybe it would help you to view it this way...Have the same kind of faith in Him that your children had in you when they were small...total blind faith...we, as mortal parents sometimes fall short of all that goes with having someone have that kind of faith in us, but God NEVER will...no matter what happens, He will NEVER fail you...I wish you the peace that passes understanding...

Blessings,

Mrs. Wondering

I have taught Sunday school...adult Sunday school. I also am starting up a marriage ministry at this church I am helping to start. Early in our marriage, my wife said that I would probably make a good college professor. I have realized that one of the gifts that God has given me is the ability to teach, and to break things down into their logical parts so they are better to digest. It has helped me in so many parts of my life.


Again I say thanks...and a big thanks to God, as he gets all of the glory!


You know, that would be great for everyone! Have you ever heard about the story of Billy Graham? I dont remember the exact story, so someone on here may be able to come in and help out. But I think it had to do with a preacher who went evangelizing. And i nthe process of doing that, he had been seen and heard by Billy Graham. Now we all know the fruits of Billy Graham's ministry! But, we dont know this guy's name. And that guy is as responsible for what Billy has been able to accomplish in the Lords name as Billy himself.

I had a friend of mine tell me one day that she figured out what the rewards that we are allowed to take to Heaven with us. Do you know what they are? They are the relationships that we have made with our fellow believers. I mean, think about it. If we spend our whole life making, and building, and accumulating stuff, and then have to leave it all behind when we die...then what is the point of life? Why stick around? Why not go straight to Heaven upon your conversion?

Well, we know that first off, we need to stay until we have finished the mission God has for us. But the second reason is that it is here that we build these incredible relationships that will last through eternity.

That is why I say it would be great for us to get together sometime. But even if we dont, we will someday, wont we? It might not be at a local restaurant, but instead at one of our mansions in Heaven. So, even if you and Mr. Wondering never meet me in this life, it is just a matter of time before we meet there.

That life is what I long for. It is like a military guy on deployment. While yo uare gone, you set up your area in the barracks or tent or whatever and call it "home." But you knwo that really isnt "home." Home for me was back in Virginia, where my wife and kids are. I knew someday, I was going to go home and this temporary home would be a memory.

Same thing goes here. This life is just our temporary home. We are on deployment. Someday, the Lord will send us home...for good. The "war" for us will be over and we can rest. And I imagine as we arrive, angels will be having a party for us.

I cannot wait!


Me also with you.

In His arms.

Thank you so much for the prayers. I really do think they can and do make a difference. My children didn't know any better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Sometimes, I really don't think my faith is the problem, because I really, really do believe he could heal him 100%, I just don't know if that is God's Will or not. Of course, we have never known what God's will is (the future) but I just never experienced it this personally. That and selfishness (I want him here) and lack of understanding or comprehending the glory of what is in store for those that pursue it.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the kind words.

Back to you Suzet*:

I want to say that I am really impressed (not that it matters one IOTA) at the civility and maturity you have shown in this thread. When you posted to FH this morning my reaction was a simple WOW!

(((((BeContent)))))

No, it's not always easy, but then we "warned" about that.

I keep feeling it is because my faith is lacking or my prayers have not been sincere and "correct". My "Your will be done" is really lacking.

You have to understand, as do I when I get to feeling this "normal" sort way, that God knows your HEART. He does not require you to speak eloquently, or with "great sounding words," He expects you speak to Him as your Father. He loves you and He loves your husband and He loves your children. "God is with you" is much more than just a "nice phrase." God, the Holy Spirit, indwells (lives with 24/7) you, your husband, and all believers. When we don't know what to say, or how to say it, the Holy Spirit Himself intercedes for us with "groans" known and understood by God. The Holy Spirit is that "other Comforter" that Christ left with us, there to comfort us in our times of distress and pain and suffering, BECAUSE the God we love is no stranger to our real pain and suffering and even our "losses."

"Jesus wept." Two words that about "say it all" about God's personal love and feeling for all of His children.

"God's will" is always somewhat scary when we surrender control of the "here and now" to God. We ARE alive now, we feel NOW, we love our spouse and children NOW....yet we also, as Christians, know that all of this, for however long God grants to us in "His will," is temporary and short lived. We look toward the future with God in eternity and THAT is the hope we hold onto. Bad things, like your husband's cancer, do happen to good people in this fallen world. God has the power to raise the dead, so He has the ability to heal anyone of anything. But if not, we know that the Comforter will never leave us and that death is not "the end."

I pray that God, in His great grace and mercy, would heal your husband and use the two of you as great witnesses for Him to those He would have you touch. May you both feel His presence and confidently place your lives and futures into the Father's omniscient hands, trusting Him both in weakness and in strength.

God bless.

FH, that was perfect!

One thing I would like to add. When I pray, I have now learned what FH is talking about. While God is the God of this Universe and deserves my reverence, He is also my Father. As such, I now pray with this mental image that I am sitting in Father's lap. No big words. No great literary speech. Just me and my Father talking.

FH is right, He knows your heart. He just wants you to spend time with Him. That is the sole reason why you were created. Do you know that? You were created to love and be loved by God. To sit in His lap and talk, or let Him hold you in times of trials, or listen to you greatest achievements.

For God, nothing we do is of great significance. He is all powerful and could do these things much better than us. but it is like when my older son was 2. He would run into the room, hop up on my lap, and show me a picture or something else he created. Now of course, on the paper, there was nothing but scribble. And while he was excited about what he had created, I was excited because he was excited and was sharing that with me.

God is no different. He wants you to talk to Him, to rely on Him, to lean on Him. He wants a relationship.

In His arms

Thanks becontent – I appreciate your kind words! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I really try to have an open mind about this subject and take all the opinions into account. I know what God says about homosexuality and I do take what He says in His Word very seriously, but at the same time I try to have insight and understanding into the problems and struggles of gay orientated people who want to do the right things and live God-feared life's. It can’t be easy for them... A big part of the society have a lack of insight into their struggles; are unsympathetic towards them and tend to condemn these people just for the fact that they are gay orientated. It's a shame... And because of this, many of these people are lonely and live in isolation…while they didn’t choose to be this way… And I’m concerned about his.

Now, some people would say that many other people, like nuns & monks also live in isolation but the difference here is that the nuns, monks etc. CHOOSE to live this way (or was called by God to do so). The gay orientated didn’t CHOOSE this and herein lays the difference and difficulty... If I can use an example: Me and my H can’t conceive naturally because of severe infertility problems. Now, some people have said to us that there are many people who’ve decided not to have children and that they are doing fine without kids…that we have to accept that probably we will never have biological kids of our own. But the people who are saying this to us forget that people who don’t have children because of a DECISION to do so, can’t be compared to us…simply because neither me nor my H CHOOSE the infertility… And sometimes I also struggle with the will of God in this regard and our inability to have children of our own...where I can see qualities of BOTH me and my H unified in a biological child...

As I view it, infertility it is totally against nature and the creation and how God intended it to be. God also created people to reproduce and “fill the earth”. So I view the inability to reproduce as in direct conflict with this and the same goes for gay orientated people. It’s unnatural and in direct conflict with the creation and how God intended it to be... Yet most of these people didn’t choose to be this way but have to live an unnatural life (of celibacy and isolation) because of their “condition”. As I’ve said yesterday: celibacy itself is an exceptional spiritual calling: In principal a distinctive supernatural existence and way of living and if the homosexual who live in celibacy are not even allowed to have a loving & nurturing with anyone (because they may get tempted) it must be exceptionally hard & difficult for them.

The other day Mortarman used an example of how he will have to live a celibate life if his W should ever become paralyzed and although I understand his point, his example can STILL not be compared to that of a homosexual simply because in Mortarman’s case, he would live in celibacy but STILL have his W by his side and he would STILL have someone he can have a loving, nurturing, intimate and exclusive relationship with... Even the adulterer, rapist, pedophile, etc. who overcome their sins and surrender to God, can have a loving, supportive, nurturing and intimate relationship with one special and long-life person should they decide to do so… But the homosexual can’t have this, simply because an exclusive relationship with a life-long partner and same-sex person can tempt them. But because of his/her orientation they can’t have a loving, nurturing, intimate and exclusive relationship with a opposite sex person either… Isn’t this sad? From the homosexual it's expected to live in celibacy (understandably so) AND to go without a nurturing & caring relationship with someone special. Must be hard...

Becontent, ForeverHers, Mortarman (and others who might read here), as you can see I’m very concerned for the gay orientated people and I think in many ways, they find themselves in a catch-22 situation. I ask myself what about the homosexual who are willing to live a celibate life and have overcome their sexual urges, but still long for a loving, nurturing and supporting relationship with someone in their life’s? Are these people really expected to live alone and in isolation for their whole life’s? I mean, the desire to belong and share your life with somebody is God given and natural… God didn’t create man to be alone. Can any of us who are "straight" really imagine how hard, difficult and lonely it must be for them? I don't think so...

I didn’t start this thread to have an insensitive debate about such a complex issue, but really because I have a deep empathy and compassion for the gay orientated believers and their struggles in life. And sometimes I don’t understand why God would allow some people to be born this way. I also ask myself sometimes why God allow women to be raped, children to be molested etc. But I guess there are many things I won’t find answers on here on earth… I guess one day in the after death life I will come to understand all these things... And if this thread can help just ONE person to become compassionate and emphatic towards gay orientated people and correct wrong views and assumptions about them, I will be satisfied…

Blessings,
Suzet

Suzet, you are a very loving and compassionate person. And you feel a "burden" for others, that is both obvious and good. All I would caution you about concerning these feelings is to keep "empathy" for another and "identification" with another separate so that you don't personally become entangled and susceptable to "human reason" that seeks to supplant God's clear teaching.

There are two primary areas of "concern" that I would have for you and your concern for the "plight" of homosexuals. First, you have to "separate" them into the same two groups that we have to separate all humans into....saved and unsaved.

Our primary (as Christians) concern should be for their soul and not the "fairness" or "unfairness" of their situation. As you said, we must also be compassionate toward nonbelievers in the hope that they will find Christ. We CAN "come alongside" of homosexual unbelievers the same as in any "Good Samaritan" situation where we "help according to our ability," but we don't bring that person into our lives to live with us, physically or mentally.

You ARE asking the age old question about "why does God allowing suffering and evil in the world?" That's another topic, but it is intrinsically involved in your questioning concerning the "plight" of homosexuals. So rather than go into the "suffering and evil" issue right now, let's spend a little time on your specific questions related to the specific case of homosexuality, if that's okay with you.

I think in many ways, they find themselves in a catch-22 situation. I ask myself what about the homosexual who are willing to live a celibate life and have overcome their sexual urges, but still long for a loving, nurturing and supporting relationship with someone in their life’s? Are these people really expected to live alone and in isolation for their whole life’s?

You seem to be "identifying" more than "empathizing" here. The question you ask is valid, but the underlying premise of the question is where the problem lies. That underlying premise is that it is "unfair" of God to "allow" homosexuality to exist so the "innocent victims" of any sexual orientation or lusts have to struggle with sin and a sin nature.

Here's what I mean by "blaming God" for the "unfairness of the homosexual's potential 'situation'"; I mean, the desire to belong and share your life with somebody is God given and natural… God didn’t create man to be alone.

This is precisely WHY God created Eve for Adam. You are 100% correct about what is "God given and natural," that God DIDN'T create man to be alone. But Satan, through the introduction of sin in the world has taken a "truth" of God and "twisted it." "God didn't REALLY mean what He said"(Satan whispers in our ears) when He created ONE woman for ONE man as THE answer to what He gave mankind as "God given and natural." Just as Adam and Eve were created with a natural desire for "good and tasty food," they were told that they could have ANY food in the world EXCEPT for a certain fruit that had to remain "untouched." No doubt about it, that "fruit" was both very pleasing to the eye and, as they found out, tasted very good upon the initial eating. But it also carried with it a severe consequence, no matter how much God created mankind to desire food. That consequence was sin, disobedience of God's commands, no matter how we might "justify" the desire by excuses like "how God created man." God did NOT create man to sin, we chose that path and we now suffer the consequences of that original choice.

So that brings us back to your thoughts about this....

Can any of us who are "straight" really imagine how hard, difficult and lonely it must be for them? I don't think so...

No, none of us "straight" folks can imagine how hard or difficult or lonely it might be. But I don't have to BE a certain anything (homosexual, rapist, murderer, celibate monk, etc.) to UNDERSTAND from the experience of others who have "gone there, done that" the "hardness, difficulty, or loneliness" of "denying self" and following Christ.

Suzet, the "broader class" of homosexuals is no different than the "broader class" of humans in general, they are NOT saved and are in enmity with God. They are NOT likely to "deny self," pick up their "cross" and follow God. So for the vast majority that you are empathizing with, they have already chosen a "life of sin" rather than Christ, and you have "nothing in common with them," other than a desire to see all "come to Christ" (the same empathy and desire that God has for all mankind).

For those homosexuals who HAVE chosen Christ as their Lord and Savior, they become a "new creation" in Christ. They receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, and God is quite capable of giving them His strength to "overcome," (as in Paul's case of a "thorn in his side) and God is quite capable of even changing their "sexual orientation" to be in alignment with what God DID create man to be and to have in woman, and vice versa. The "change" begins for all of us, regardless of what "sins" we brought to the table when we accepted Christ, with surrendering our lives, our will, our wants, our desires, to God and HIS will. We place ourselves, no matter the current or future temptations and struggles, into God's hands to USE as HE sees fit, not as we think it "should be."

It is a "concept" that is rejected by all who are not Christians. The mere idea that "anyone" (God) has a "right to command us" and is Sovereign, instead of ourselves being "sovereign" in our own lives and choices, is refused and denied.

"Renew in me a right spirit, O Lord" is a prayer that we ALL say say to God. It put's God in control and "allows" Him to do with us as HE sees fit. It IS just like Jesus' human desire to live and not go through the agony of death on the Cross for us, for God did not create us to be "human sacrifices" for the sins of others. Yet Jesus put His human will and natural desire at the feet of the Father and "surrendered" his right to choose to God the Father's will...for our ultimate good, both here and in eternity to come.

When Jesus says, "If you love me, obey my commands" he is teaching many truths, but two of them are; 1)becoming more Christ-like BEGINS with obedience to God no matter how easy or how hard it may seem to be to be "obedient," and 2)He modeled that love through SURRENDER of His place in heaven with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and in surrendeing His human will (as Jesus of Nazareth, the fully human man) to the Father's will....completely and unconditionally, no matter what the personal feelings or the personal "cost" in the 'human seeming' "fairness or unfairness" of what HE was being asked to do simply because God the Father required it.

Suzet, I am out of time this morning to go into it more and Friday's are very difficult for me to be "on the system." So I hope that has helped a little. If you would like more discussion on this, please be patient with me as I will be unlikely to able to get on the system to post until much later.

God bless.

FH,

Thanks again so much for your thorough response. I do listen to what you’re saying to me and as usual, most of what you’ve said helped to put certain things in perspective for again. I learn so much from you - thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I can see the danger you’re talking about and what you've said is true… I know I have a tendency to “over-emphasize” or “over-identify” sometimes and although empathy & compassion are good qualities, I know it’s also important to keep a “balance” here. My whole life I wanted to become a counselor and psychologist, but probably my tendency to over-emphasize would cause me trouble and would lead me to become too emotionally involved with other’s troubles. By the way, it’s this same thing that have gotten me into trouble with my friendship with XOM in the first place.


FH, I will be off the system myself from this afternoon (I don’t read and post during weekends and it's already 13:00 pm in my country), so if there is something more I want to discuss, I will be back on Monday.

Have a nice day and weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

**************edit*************

Dalton Dad,

Your disrespectful and attacking behavior is SHOCKING.

Please stay of this thread.

Thanks,
Suzet

There are many in this life bearing burdens and living less that what you would consider desireable lives. I have a story to tell you that illustrates this much more profoundly (IMO).

This story is 20 to 30 years old. There was a young couple in this town been married a short while with no children. He had a car accident and was left with very little mental and physical abilities. He has spent these years in a nursing home. You know she really doesn't deserve to live a childless life married to this man nor did she CHOOSE to. Do you think she should divorce him? Personally, I really believe in the "for better for worse" clause in the vows and I find no Biblical basis for a divorce.

By the way, she divorced him, remarried, and had children.

I am so sorry for the infertility as I understand it. It took me 5 years and fertility drugs to be blessed with my 2 boys.(((((Suzet*)))))

Thank everyone for their kind words. There are a couple of posts that I have printed off because of the comfort they gave me in my daily struggles of late.

Thanks,

Becontent, I understand what you’ve tried to illustrate with the story. The difference is that the woman in the story probably received a lot of sympathy, support, understanding etc. from the people around her in her life… And usually homosexuals don’t get this same type of sympathy, support and understanding in general from people, the society and churches. In stead, they receive a lot of condemnation etc. But I do understand what you're saying.

No, personally I don’t think the woman should have divorced her H. But I also wouldn’t condemn and judge her for doing so. It was her choice. I think if something like that would happen to my dear H, I would stay by him and I don’t think I would ever found it in my heart to leave him. I also believe in the marriage vows and I would pray for God’s strength and power to abide to it. I know I would suffer greatly but I also know I would get my “reward” in heaven some day… But again…I can’t really say because, you can’t say until you have walked in the same shoes. It's easy for me to guess what I would do if I don't actually find myself IN that situation. But I know what God would expect me to do, and that would be to not break my marriage vows nad stay by my H "for better or for worse"...

Yes, the infertility is difficult for us. We are 9 years married now…and I’m 32 years old already (not that it’s old, but my biological clock is ticking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). As soon as my H is employed again and our financial position is back on track, we will go for the intro-fertilization treatment called ICSI. This method is very expensive but the only way we can possibly conceive a child… Unless God will do a miracle in our lives. I’m praying for this...but after so many years I don’t know if this is His will for us. We will see what the future holds...

(((becontent)))

Prayers to you and may God give you strength & comfort during this difficult time in your life…

Blessings,
Suzet

Alot there Suzet. My main point is that yes, there is a difference. But there is a sameness also. Both the monk that chooses celibacy and the homosexual that has to choose celibacy, the urges are stil lthe same. The human nature is still the same. The struggle is still the same. One because they chose to, the other because they had to.


Hard? Yes. But again, I think you are limiting God. Look, I see sometimes on here a person comes on and says "My partner is having an affair." Then we find out that the two are not married. Well, sorry...it isnt adultery if you arent married...it is just fornication with someone different.

We try to equate living together and "acting" married as the same as marriage. That it is only a piece of paper. No way! One of my brothers lived with his girlfriend for 5 years. He used to say these things. Well, they got married two years ago and he recently admitted that everything is different. How he feels about her, and she for him. Their outlook.

It is what God calls making one flesh. You cannot make a one flesh marriage with your girlfriend or boyfriend. And while them cheating on you hurts, in reality, you were doing to them the same thing this new person is doing...sinning. Sex and intimacy are reserved for a man and a woman in a marriage. That is where it was designed for and where it works properly. When we try to take it where it was not designed and never intended, we screw it up, cheapen it. And I am as guilty as the next of doing this.

The homosexual cannot have a relationship like a marriage. It is impossible. The only possibility for a homosexual to have a marriage relationship is to marry the opposite sex and to trust God to provide what they need to make that relationship work. You see, Suzet...what they are looking for cannot be found in the same sex. It cannot! You hear of homosexual couples tell of how much in love they are, etc. Or that they have been together for 15 years. Blah, blah, blah. But I feel sad for them. One of the reasons I feel sad is that they really are selling themselves short on this and although they think they have it good, they will never know the greatness of a marriage. They have sold out for a very cheap imitation of what God provides a man and a woman.

Isnt that how the Devil always works? He tries to sell us something "close" to what God is providing. Somethign that is 99% Scriptural. But it is that 1% that will cause us to die. It is that 1% that will leave us disatisfied.

I have a Christian married couple I am friends with. They for years had problems with the sex issue, as the wife really had no interest. She had run around in her college days and now somehow, she didnt feel the urge nor the need for sex. The husband was very disgruntled.

I was talking to her one day and basically said "You know something? As long as you are in defiance and rebellion to God, you probably never will feel it." Of course, she said "What am I supposed to do, just lay there and let him do what he wants?" No, I said. What you do is obey God. You give your all to whatever He has called you to do, and you do it with a cheerful heart. Why? Because you are trusting God to come alongside and to give yo uthe feelings and things that you need.

Well, she took that to heart. She began to seek her husband out, and to allow him to seek her out. She did this in obedience to Christ. And an interesting thing has happened. They now have a sex life they both enjoy, and have had two kids in the last three years.

You see, God calls us to obey. Feelings follow obedience.


No, that is what the opposite sex was created for. Again, look to what I just said about obedience. But if they cannot do that, then yes, they must live a life without the intimacy of a marriage.


I can imagine. Of course I can. And I feel for these people too. I know that this Cross that they must bear is hard, just as I have my own Cross to bear that is hard. But as you said, God didnt create man to be alone. But He also didnt create Adam and Steve. It was Adam and Eve. Man was made in God's image. Woman was made to be the crowning glory of His creation and to be a helpmate, a completer, of the man. A man cannot be the completer or helpmate of another man. Just as a man cannot conceive babies. He doesnt have a womb. Well, he doesnt have what a woman has in offering to another man. The same goes with women trying to fill the roles and responsibilities of a man. They can try to get close...but again, it will just be a cheap substitute.


And I am glad you did. it has been very thought provoking and has remained a good discussion.


He allowed freewill. We are all born the way we are due to freewill, not due to God. A baby born with a cocaine addiction is born that way due to the freewill of its mother, who did cocaine. A homosexual is born due to the freewill of our ancestors, mainly Adam and Eve, who brought sin into this world. Homosexuality is the consequences of our ancestors' sins. And subsequent generations pay for it, jsut as that baby has to pay for what its mother did. This is not God's fault. He didnt sin. He allowed us all to make a choice. And loves us enough to respect that choice. Even if that choice is not for Him.


We should always be compassionate to our fellow man, no matter what their Cross to bear is. Andagain, I do feel for the plight of these people. But their solution to the problems they face isnt empathy or compassion, or living a life of turmoil. Their solution is in the bending of their knee to our Lord, and allowing Him and trusting Him to take care of the rest.

Remember, Jesus NEVER promised us happiness in this life. he only promised peace.

In His arms.

************edit************
Last I checked, Dr. Harley doesn't quote chapter and verse from the bible. In fact, I wouldn't say that is a major factor in anything to do with MB.

************edit**************

dalton - your right - it's not marriage builder - but if you are a christian - you have to be pretty high on God - actually God must come first in your life. Not a Nazi - Nazi's weren't real christians...I don't see any racism or genocide - FH's opinions may be really strongly oriented - but his heart is in the right place...and even other Christians may not wholeheartedly agree with him, but his heart is in the right place - it's with God.

I guess perhaps if he is posting on non-christian threads about following God it might be offensive to non-christians - but for the christians here - which there are many - he has alot of good points and holds us christians accountable - which is what christians are to do for their brothers and sisters.

I'm sorry that you are so disgruntled by it, and even sadder you feel God is dead.

Best of luck in life DD, and I do hope that you are finding help and peace in other people, if it can't be from FH or other Christians.

If you are offended by FH's posts, you may certainly report those posts to the moderators who can then take appropriate action as THEY see fit.

YOU MAY NOT post offensive stuff in retaliation of what you deem offensive.

This thread was managing to keep a pretty civil tone on a very sensitive topic. I have reported your posts to the moderators and hope that this thread will return to a lively, and civil discussion.

I understand what you’re saying MM. I can agree with this.

Of course homosexuals can’t have a relationship like a M. I agree with this. And regarding your suggestion that a homosexual can marry an opposite sex person and trust that God will provide what they need… Well, don’t you think it will be unfair towards the opposite sex person who are heterosexual? Do you think that heterosexual person will marry if he/she knows about the homosexual orientation? I don’t think so. I would not. But maybe the homosexual can keep it secret and hide the fact that he/she is gay and just hope & belief that God will provide. But that would be dishonest towards the heterosexual partner, wouldn’t it? What if it don’t work out and the heterosexual person find out about the homosexual orientation afterwards?

The things is, I have heard and read of many gay believers – children of God – who have gotten married to an opposite sex person out of the hope that he/she would get straight and be “healed” from his/her orientation but where it didn’t worked out that way...and eventually they divorced. And it was people who have stayed obedient to God and prayed that He should take their “burden” away. Remember Bob’s story about his friend? There is a perfect example. Of course God is big and can do miracles. In no way I’m limiting him, but…it’s still God’s decision if He will take that “burden” and “cross” away or not… I also know He sometimes allow a "burden" to remain in a person's life...even if that person stays faithful and obedient to Him.

True. Make sense. Also the other things you've said but which I didn't quote.

Thanks again for your contributions MM! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dalton Dad, my, my, aren't you the tolerant one with anyone who has a "divergent" opinion from yours.

"Hate speach" from a "Nazi-type?" You have a strange definition of "acceptable speech" toward someone you disgree with.

But to each his own...I forgive you.

This has been such a great thread to read - very educating...MM you truly have a great empathy and heart for people. I'm always delighted to read your responces - you remind me so much of a young version of my dad <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dalton, what in the world got into you here? FH hasnt lambasted anyone. he has spoken the truth as outlined in Scripture. People can chose to believe Scripture or not. That is their choice and I KNOW Foreverhers has no problem in honoring a person's choice. It doesnt mean that person made the right choice. we do have freewill, and we can choose to do the wrong thing (aka...my wife chose to have an affair).


Dr. Harley is a God-fearing man who has taken his ministry into the secular world. Yes, it is true that he doesnt mention God or the Bible in his work. But, believe me, it is Bible-based. Nothing he teaches or has come up with is in defiance with the Bible. Nothing.


Anytime someone has to resort to calling somone a Nazi, they have pretty much lost the argument. Dalton, you can do better than this. Name calling shows that you do not have anything substantive to say.


Lecture you on disrespect? I dont need to...you just showed everyone exactly what it looks like.


No one does. You have had every right to say what you said here. No one is going to say that you cant post. But Dalton, your diatribe here did not help you get anything across to anyone.

If you dont like what someone has said on here, the better way is to come on and say "Hey, I dont agree...and here's why..." Suzet has done that. I have done that. FH has done that. And I think the discussion has become pretty civil. But doing it the way you just did?

All you will manage to do is either inflame passions, or have people just ignore your post and move to the next.

Either way, even if your point is relevent and accurate, it never gets across.

As I said before Dalton, you have the right to say what you want. But I do believe you can do better.

In His arms.

I did not know that. I just talked to Him this morning. did it happen while I was in morning commute? How did He die? Was He murdered, or was it just old age?

Well, since Dalton has stated that he knows for sure God is dead, I guesswe can shut down this web site and all go out and do whatever we please. Since there are no standards that can be enforced from a dead god, then I guess we can all make the standards up as we go along.

Someone please email me when they hear when the wake and funeral is. I would like to attend. Or at least send flowers.

In His arms.

Funny enuf MM, I tried to negotiate with God the other day hehehe...I was told by sprint that I may be able to go on this trip with him, and I sat in the car telling God i know it might not be his plan so I wont get my hopes up, but I started telling God all the good points (as if he didn't know already) about why i should go....lol...I could see God rolling his eyes at me telling me I can't negotiate with him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyways - I am now going, and keep thanking God <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but asking him to keep us safe of course...

A little off topic - but made me think of it when you said you had just talked to Him this morning. I find I talk to him alot when I m driving... lol

TJ,
Politics and religion, never a good mix.

However... TJ....

What I've embraced about MB, is that it's on the WORLD WIDE WEB.

Translation, it's multicultural, people from all walks of life, countries, come here (sadly enough any of us are here).

BUT..., MB has become widely known as a "Christian Website" ... don't believe me? I can back it up IF need be. I wish it wasn't like that, because I don't believe that was Harley's intent, but that's what MB is known for now.

HOWEVER... , it should be widely known AND accepted that religions vary drastically. Some people have NO GOD, some people have many GODS.

Religion, and politics are personal VIEWS.

I choose to avoid ALL threads that deal with any of the two subjects.

It's not my purpose here. Marriage Building is.

As to HOW "Marriage' is defined, again... personal opinion.

Truly...personal opinion.

So if someone comes here seeking advice, for THEIR Marriage, it's not up to me to define if they are even MARRIED or not, regardless of the race, creed, or sexual orientation.

I'll get off my soap box now.

You know something...let me ask you a question. How much did you know about your husband before you married him? Did you think he was capable of the things that he has done since you were married? If you had known before you married him that he would do these things...would you have still married him?

One of the things that shocked my wife, and her attorney when we went to the custody hearing last year was when I said, on the stand, that even with everything I know about her and what she has done...I would still marry her knowing these things before. They didnt understand. My own mother didnt quite understand. But in the seats in the courtroom was my Christian friend that I am helping start a church. And he understood.

You see, we marry not knowing much about our spouse. We spend a lifetime getting to know them. When we dated, they were on their best behavior. They covered up their faults, as we did with them. Why would we show our faults? That person might not accept us? So, we put on our best behavior until after we are married.

Then we find out that he is a slob, or she nags. We find out that he has alcoholism in his family, and when things get tough, he begins to drink. We find out she might not have any concept of a budget, and runs the family finances in the ground. And so on, and so on. There are many things about our spouse that if we had known ahead of time, we would not have accepted.

So, all I am saying is that my God is all-powerful. He can handle this situation and make it what it should be. That is if the two people involved follow Him. I hate the fact my wife has committed adultery. In some ways, I am sickened by it. That innocense of our relationship has been destroyed. But there is something deeper than that, is there not? Isnt one of the reasons we BSs go thru Plan A and Plan B because we are willing to overcome our spouses faults because there is something much deeper? And so it can be with the couple you talk about here.


As I have learned, they are praying the wrong prayer. Maybe that burden is needed. FH reminded me of the burden that God left on Paul. That without the burden, who knows what direction Paul would have taken. You see, without the burdens of life, we then find ourselves with no need for God. My wife said something very much like this after coming home. You see, she had an abortion when she was 16. It had messed her up her whole life and every November (this is the month she did it), she would be gloomy and reserved. But she began to go to PACE meetins, which are designed for those grieving abortion. They even wen thru the rpocess of naming and then burying their babies.

My wife felt relief after that. She felt that God had taken this burden and that her child had forgiven her. But strangely enough, this burden being removed corresponded with a two year pullback from me, from the church...and culminated in the affair. She said that it seemed like the burden was actuall ya blessing because it kept her close to Christ. And that as soon as the burden was removed, she ran off to do things her own way. And of course, screw things up.

I do not profess to know what God's will is in a particular person's or couple's life, outside of what He has told us in the Bible. Some will be freed from their burdens and others will be left in them. Jesus walked by many blind men as he healed one of them. Why? Why not them all? I dont know. Maybe they needed to still be blind. Maybe they needed the afflictions of life because it was the only way to keep them on the narrow road or was the only way to get them to come to the Lord. Remember, it isnt this life we should be worried about. Our afflictions will only last 60, 70, 80+ years. What we should be worried about is eternity. And if an affliction will keep me from wandering fro mthe Lord, then please Lord...continue to allow that affliction. As my pastor states, our prayer should be "Whatever it takes, Lord. WHATEVER it takes."


As I stated above.


No, thank you. Believe me, I do not know everything! And I am learning a lot here.

In His arms.

Again, after what you have told me about your Dad...I am honored.

In His arms.

Mortarman, sorry for the delay in response. As I've said to FH last week, I don’t really read and post during weekends.

I knew the most important and crucial stuff about my H, his family, his past, "skeletons in the closet" etc. before I married him and he knew the same about mine. We did this firstly because we trusted each other enough to do so and felt "safe" with each other and secondly because honesty was very important to us and we believed it was very important and crucial for a couple to share these things before marriage. We didn't want to receive surprises about each other afterwards and we certainly didn't want to put up a false facade. Also, we didn't want to hide or kept quite about the things we KNEW could affect our M negatively should we not share it beforehand. We wanted to show our "true colors" to each other BEFORE marriage. We both felt it would be unfair, dishonest, deceptive, pretentious and wrong to "cover up" faults & weaknesses, to pretent otherwise and to withold important information from one another. My H and I marry each other IN SPITE of the negative things we knew about each other. And I would STILL marry him today after all the other things I’ve learned about him after marriage.

Of course we find out and discover negative and irritating behavior, tendencies and personality traits about our spouses after marriage. This happen because before marriage, we don't live with them, wake up with them, share a budget with them etc., so it's only normal and natural to discover all these other things afterwards. I’m talking about the negative and irritating behavior and tendencies of someone we can’t learn/know about until we start to live with that person under the same roof. But I don’t think these are the issues we're talking about here. I’m talking about BIG stuff like sexual orientation etc. IMO people MUST share the BIG and CRUCIAL things before marriage... And homosexual orientation IS a big issue. In fact, ANYTHING which can affect a couple's intimate life negatively after marriage should be shared and this is why I’ve also told my H about my sexual abuse before we’ve got married.

Look, I have empathy and understanding for people who don’t share these things before marriage because of shame and fear of rejection. I really do. But it doesn’t make it right either. No matter what the reason, it’s NEVER okay to deliberately and intentionally hide, lie and/or pretend about things for the purpose of trying to hook someone up in marriage with you. It’s false, wrong, selfish, dishonest and deceptive. It’s definitely not a healthy way to start a marriage and such behavior can lead to serious problems after marriage. And the same applies to homosexuals.

I want to tell you about a friend of mine: Before her marriage, her spouse pretended to be a Christian and wonderful friend for 4 YEARS. During these 4 years, he treated her with the uttermost respect. He was always there to support her, to listen to her, to be her friend. And then, after the 2nd week of marriage (they were still on honeymoon), he started to show his true colors and changed from “day to night”. He treated her disrespectfully and later on he also gets abusive towards her verbally and emotionally. Also, he was no longer interested in going to church with her. My friend felt extremely betrayed, but she tried to kept the marriage together for 6 years. Today she is a divorced woman.

I don't agree with your generalization here... Not ALL people marry not knowing much out their spouses and not all of them cover up their faults and put up their best behavior until after they are married...and they should not...especially not regarding BIG issues (like sexual orientation). (Refer to my response above).

You can't say this Mortarman... There is no way you can know or assume for sure that someone is praying the "wrong" prayer. If this is true then it means that I'm also praying the wrong prayers (because me and my H are still childless after 9 years, my H is still unemployed after 2 years, and I still struggle with psychiatric disorders)... But you know what, I KNOW the prayers me and my H are praying is not wrong and that He have a plan for our lives! As I've said last week, God sometimes allow "burdens" and "crosses" to remain in our lives for a specific reason...even if we stay faithful and obedient to Him.

So true...I've experienced this myself. Problems keep us close to God.

We all learn a lot and no one of us knows everything... But it doesn't mean I can't express thanks and gratitude towards a sister/brother in Christ. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Translated from part of a chapter about homosexuality (excuse any language errors please). This is from the same book I’ve sent the other extraction from earlier on in this thread. Again, this is also my own POV about this issue:

[color:"blue"]• It’s significant that Jesus Christ expressed a more severe judgment on the loveless, unmerciful and hypocritical Pharisees (follow Matthew 23 - specifically verse 14) than on people who have committed sexual sins.

• In Romans 1:18-32 (specifically 25-28) there is direct reference to homosexual practices. Yet this periscope is not really about homosexuality itself. It deals with the old sin of not honoring God as the Creator. Where honor to God disappears, a person’s life become skew. The person then creates his/her own “god” and the sin of sexual practices (distinguished from orientation) enters his/her life. As a result of disrespect towards God, the relationship between people starts to change. And in the person’s inter-human activities, he/she quickly finds him/herself outside the original creation order (how God intended it to be).

CREATION ORDER: A KEYWORD

Creation order is a key word in the Christen ethic.

In the creation order, the believer sees God’s original plan: undamaged and according to His will. Inside the creation order, one man and one woman live in a sexual and spiritual relationship with each other, cultivate and look after the creation, the ecology is in harmony and the day of rest is used to refresh body and soul.

The creation order has been disturbed by the Fall (fall of man).

After our salvation through Jesus Christ, the word creation order gets new meaning. We want to live as much as possible in this order. The day of rest is important again. Married couples work on their marriage love etc. etc.

GAYS DON’T HAVE A MORE SINFULL (PRE)DISPOSITION THAN NON-GAYS

Homosexuality is, like sickness; suffering; pain and death, a fall out from the creation order. The predisposition to homosexuality - the potential and tendency to live as a homosexual - is however not a more sinful disposition as where the heterosexual person finds him/herself in after the Fall. Even in the heterosexual person is the “sin of the fathers”, the predisposition to other activities which fell out of the creation order.

Homosexual, bi-sexual and heterosexual people each show their own individual “scars” from the Fall. Each of us is just scarred differently. Some are obsessive-compulsive, some are depressed, some are aggressive etc.

WE ALL CARRY SCARS

The homosexual have scars in the areas of sexual orientation. It can exist in his/her genes, just as the “scares” in the genes of some alcoholics and people who suffer from depression.

Two things become clear:

1. It is in collision with the gospel to fail to see the scars of the heterosexual majority and to except the scars of the homosexual as the most obnoxious scar before God and man.

2. The homosexual orientated person is still marginalized, seldom seek out or brought back into the circle of believers. Laymen who can’t change their own predispositions and insist that homosexual individuals (sufferers who carry the scars of the Fall) have to change, can cause damage and harm.

The body of Christ can no longer avoid the lot, the potential, the dilemma and the usefulness of the homosexual orientated person. Just as the church can’t reject and condemn a person who suffers from depression, just as intolerable and anti-Scripture it is to passively or actively revile such a fellow human being in any community (follow Galilee 6: 2-4).

The gay believer is, just as the believer who is a heterosexual sinner, a child of God through His grace. [/color]

It seems this thread has probably come to an end. So, I just want to say thanks again to everyone who have took the time to contribute to this discussion and helped to put some things in perspective for me. This was indeed a thought provoking discussion and I found it very stimulating and insightful. I also want to thank those who have helped to manage an adult & civil discussion about such a sensitive and controversial topic.

Blessings to all,
Suzet

hmmm...it's your thread, Suzet, and you can bring it to a close whenever you wish. However, since most were probably waiting for you to return from the weekend hiatus, the lack of posting may not have indicated a "lack of intererst" in the discussion. It may have simply been waiting for you to post again.



It would seem that Bovet is arguing FOR marriage to be ONLY between one man and one woman, no other exceptions allowed. I have no argument or disagreement with that position.



Okay, I'm hearing a couple of different things here that Bovet seems to be "equating" rather than separating as individual issues. The first is the concept of "original sin" (that sin inherited "sin of the fathers through Adam and Eve"). The second is the concept of ACTING (physically or mentally) on temptations to sin.

Concerning the issue of "original sin," Bovet is correct in equating homosexuality with "any other sin" in that we have "ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God" without the intervention of Jesus Christ. We all, even after accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior CONTINUE to live in an "unglorified" (i.e., "sin-natured") body and in a sinful, fallen, world. We will continue to face many temptations and trials throughout our life from both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL sources. That is the idea behind "pick up YOUR cross and follow me," not to "give into" sinful temptations and desires.

The second idea of "all sin being equal" is true from the standpoint of any "sin being anathema to God." It is equally true that there ARE differences in the severity of some sins that even God recognizes. Topping the list of "serious sins," in my humble opinion, is the sin of "Pride." That one sin leads to the justification of willful disobedience to God and is the sin that originated in Lucifer and has been passed down to us since the Fall of Man.

Homosexuality, indulged and practiced is declared by God to be an "abomination." That would seem to raise it to the level of things like "Idol worship," worshipping the "created" rather than the Creator. Furthermore, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God BECAUSE of the sin of homosexuality "lived out" as a "lifestyle," and "normal." The only other time that God, in His wrath against sin and the CHOICE to sin, utterly DESTROYED the "dwelling place of man" was with the Flood, when the collective sins of mankind had "infected" everyone save Noah. Noah, himself, was still "infected," but he had chosen to obey God instead of "self." Make no mistake about it, ALL sin makes God angry.

We spend a lot of time as Christians talking about a "peaceful God," a "benevolent God," a "Lamb of God," giving the impression that God doesn't JUDGE anyone. Not true, it is a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." The "Lamb of God" will come girded for war and to JUDGE all believers, as well as unbelievers.

Even marriage (that is adultery) is judged to be sufficiently "MORE" heinous than other sorts of sins that it "justifies before God" the ending of the marriage if the Faithful Spouse so chooses.



If Bovet is talking about a believer (homo or hetersexual) being in a church of believers, I would agree. We ARE all forgiven sinners and we call the church to "hold us accountable" for our profession of faith through the mechanism of "church discipline," should it be needed. The church, while accepting all believers, does not then "turn a blind eye" to unrepentant sins that members might choose to engage in. To "ignore" such situations would bring dishonor on God and open the thoughtline that "it's okay to sin" (ala the argument about "liberty in Christ").

On the other hand, if what Bovet is opining about is that Christians should "accept" or "not condemn" an active Homosexual lifestyle as being a sin against God, but "okay" because we don't want to offend anyone, "after all, we are all sinners by birth," then I do have a disagreement with Bovet.

I think the "too inclusive" term, "ANY COMMUNITY," is the item that needs much clarification from Bovet. If he means the "community of forgiven sinners IN Christ," I have no argument with his position. If, on the other hand, he defines "ANY COMMUNITY" to mean active homosexual "lifestyle" communities, then I DO have a sharp disagreement with him. As Christ made a whip with which to "chastise" the moneychangers, etc., in the Temple, there is no "accomodating" sin as "just another lifestyle" and NOT as SIN against God. The "intolerable" position would be to "say nothing" and thereby (through silence) imply to the world that "it's okay to sin against God."

Bovet's argument about [color:"blue"]"the church can’t reject and condemn a person who suffers from depression, just as intolerable and anti-Scripture it is to passively or actively revile such a fellow human being (Read: "Homosexual" (gay and/or lesbian) instead of "fellow human being")
in any community,[/color] is incorrect, in my opinion. Church Discipline is taught by Jesus because sin must be confronted, not excused or tolerated.

To "equate" someone struggling with mental illness of any sort (depression, psychosis, etc.) with homosexuality would likely garner argument even from active homosexuals who do NOT believe in Christ. They consistantly push homosexuality as being "just another normal lifestyle" and certainly not a "sin." Yet, here comes Bovet, with Jungian style philosophy, apparantly making NO distinction between Christians welcoming into fellowship all forgiven believers who have repented of their former "lifestyles" and who have committed to following the Lord in humble obedience to His commands AND the command and responsibility of that selfsame "church" to "police" it's members with respect to active sin and refusal to surrender to God. A "profession" of faith should (according to James) be evidenced by an outward "living out" of that faith. The "works," motivated by love for God who has forgiven us a "unpayable debt" should be seen by all as we "obey God's commands." We don't "work" to obtain salvation, we "work" in response of love for God and what HE did to rescue us from a life of sin.

In any event, we are NOT talking about "rejecting" or "condemning" the person, we are talking about confronting a choice to SIN against God as being "inconsistant with a simultaneous profession of belief in Jesus Christ." This IS the concept of "love the sinner, but 'hate' the sin." Bovet seems to be equating "sin" and "sinner" to arrive at his notion of it being [color:"blue"]intolerable and anti-Scripture[/color] to confront the active choice of committing sin by either a believer or an unbeliever. "Nonsense" would be my response to that sort of a position, as the 10 Commandments (The Law) were given to "make us aware of sin" and it's pervasivenss in human life. Remember, too, that God has stated, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." That implies judgement, sentencing, and carrying out of punishment as determined by the Judge, Almighty God. The "sinner" will be judged on their SINS. It IS the person who will suffer the consequences of the "hated sins," not excused because it was their "nature" to choose sinful choices and behaviors. But that "punishing" of sinners is God's, not our, prerogative. Ours is to "chastise, to point out, to discuss, to declare the Good News of the Gospel message, etc.," in the hope that the sinner will REPENT of the sin(s). God, Himself, LOVES all people in the world and has "proven" that love, and "shown" that love through the provision of our salvation FROM a life of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Yet not all WILL be saved, no matter how much God loves each individual, because many of us will choose sin over Jesus, self over God, selfishness and Pride over submission to the one true LORD.


This statement I am in complete agreement with, as we both surrender our lives to God as our LORD and Savior and become a "new creation" in Christ.

God bless.

FH, I didn’t see your response until now. I’m knocking off from work in 15 minutes time, so for now I only want to respond on the following part of your post:

I’m in total agreement with you that there are differences in the severity of some sins and that even God recognizes that. For example, in Matthew 13:14 Jesus expressed a more severe judgment on the hypocritical Pharisees. I have even read in the Apocrypha Books (the books taken out of the Bible years ago after Jesus’s life here on earth and the books which were discovered again many years later) about the different specific punishments unrepentant sinners will receive for certain sins in h e l l - and certain sins WILL receive greater punishments than others – and I think this is what Jesus was talking about when he said to the Pharisees that “ye shall receive the greater damnation" (Matthews 23:14). So IMO God DOES differentiate certain sins from others in ‘level’ , ‘scale’ and ‘severe ness’ (I know Mortarman is not in agreement with me about this).

The list of the “serious sins” (you are referring to in your post above) is the other reason I believe God DOES view certain sins bigger than others. And although God probably view sins like pride, gluttony etc. as a bigger sin (or at least equal to) the sin of homosexuality (and other sins), many people and churches tend to view the sin of homosexuality as a bigger sin and also treat it as such… For example, God say in His Word that if a person divorce for any other reason than for adultery, that such a person is not allowed to marry again except if the spouse die or if he/she gets reconciled with the former husband/wife. In God’s eyes remarriage to another person than the former spouse is adultery, but in spite of this, churches accept such 2nd marriages in the church and don’t “discipline” such church members even if they remain in the second marriage and as a result continue living in “adultery”.

My point is, God doesn’t view the sin of homosexuality greater than the sin of adultery (or any other sin), but yet the churches and society in general treat them TOTALLY different. If churches really want to treat all sins equally and don’t want to “pick out” a certain sin as more severe than another, they should not allow 2nd marriages to take place in the church (just as homosexual marriages are not allowed to take place in a church). Now, with this being said, I don’t say churches should not allow 2nd marriages (in case someone wants to “flame” me for saying this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). I’m just using an example to illustrate how the church and society differentiate certain sins from others and don't treat them all equally etc. This is very unfair and I have a problem with this "double-standard" which exist in some churces and society in general.

Granted. Churches are made up of people, and many of them have succumbed to the idea of "inclusion" or "not offending" anyone. They, in many cases, begin to reflect the "world" and it's viewpoint instead of God. Some have gone so far off the "deep end" that they think it's okay to have homosexual marriages of the "first kind," and even to have homosexuals as "Pastors," while not making it crystal clear that homosexual acts and/or lifestyle ARE a sin against the very God they claim to represent.

I also know of Pastors who HAVE refused to perform a marriage ceremony(1st, 2nd, etc.) after meeting with the prospective bride and groom because they don't, or haven't, accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and refuse God as LORD of their lives. I, myself, was in that category because I did not receive Christ until two months before we were scheduled to be married, and I knew that Pastor Ron would NOT marry an "unevenly yoked" couple.

I think in the area of a divored person, especially one who may have been the "unfaithful spouse," if they have subsequently surrendered to God and repented of the sin, they should be allowed to marry. But I would advise them to NOT take the step of a "2nd Marriage" lightly. They need to know and understand that their "repentance" can't be for "just show." They have to mean it and they have to be committed to living their lives and their impending marriage FOR God from this day forward and leaving the "past wrong choices" in the past.

Peter denied Christ three times, and Jesus "held Peter's feet to the fire" when He asked him three times..."Peter, do you love me?" Jesus "impressed upon Peter" the seriousness and totality of that commitment to God in LOVE, and then restored him fully. I'd call that a "pretty good model for second chances after willful, and serious, sin.

God bless.

To add to the conversation, the Bible did allow someone to remarry, although it was not God's desire as Jesus pointed out, but it was an exception mediated with God by Moses.

Post moved to this thread.

ForeverHers, I just want to make excuse for my delay in response to the rest of your post of yesterday. I will be offline for the rest of the day but will respond on it again tomorrow. My grandfather just passed away this morning and there are things I need to attend to.

In the meantime and if you can find the time, I would like you to take a look at the post I’ve send this morning from the website link regarding Biblical divorce and remarriage and give me your thoughts on it. I would like to know if you agree with the author’s interpretations and viewpoints regarding this topic.

Thanks in advance and God Bless,
Suzet

((((( Suzet* )))))

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your Grandfather.

I hope that you will all feel the comforting presence of the Lord during this time.

Take all the time you need, there is no rush or hurry. We are having a conversation, not a "life and death" struggle.

I began reading your post(which you obviously spent a lot of time typing, especially if you are anywhere near as slow a typist as I am). I did'nt realise it's length or the amount of information in it until I got partway through it, so I have copied it and look at it "offline." Any specific questions about it you'd like me focus on or opine about?

Again, God bless and comfort you and your family during this time.

Suzet, so sorry about your grandfather! God Bless.

I'm sorry for your loss. I hope the Lord comforts you during this time.

((((( Suzet* )))))

I just noticed John Macarthur is currently doing a series on Homosexuality and the Bible. Here is an excerpt from his website on the content of this series:


His website is www.gty.org. I think I will order it this weekend.

In His arms.

I am going thru your post Suzet. We might want to move this to its own thread for a bette discussion. But for now, as I go thru what you posted, I did remember this excerpt I found on the web some time ago.



Just throwing it out there for discussion!!
In His arms.

Suzet,

Sorry to hear of your loss. Prayers go out for you and your family.

In His arms.

ForeverHers, Melody, AskMe and Mortarman – thanks so much for your comforting words and prayers...it’s much appreciated. My Grandfather was 84 years of age and very weak and ill. He had a good & prosperous life and was always a very energetic and healthy person, but the last few months of sickness has really taken its toll… So, in a way our family expected this – we prepared ourselves for this loss and we knew it would come (sooner or later), but it’s still a shock and very sad when the time actually arrives… But I also know my dear Grandfather is at a better place now where he doesn’t have to endure the suffering and pain anymore…and this thought is very comforting to me during this time of sadness…

I think it will be best to keep the discussions on Homosexuality/Christianity and Biblical Divorce/Remarriage separate. Therefore I will move my post on Biblical Divorce and Remarriage to a new thread and I will also copy and paste ForeverHers's & Mortarman’s post on divorce/remarriage to that new thread so that the discussion can continue there.

ForeverHers, luckily I didn’t have to type the post I send on divorce/remarriage yesterday (it would indeed have taken me very long to do so!). I just copied and pasted the information into the post. A few months ago I’ve copied and pasted the information from the website link into a Word Document and saved it on my hard drive. I’m SO glad I kept it because it seems that the website (where I’ve got the information from) probably don’t exist anymore – it still give the same message as yesterday.

FH, at the moment I don’t have any specific questions I want to ask you, but I do want to know if you agree with the author’s interpretations and viewpoints regarding divorce/remarriage in general and specifically on the biblical list of reasons (extreme and dangerous conditions) which are biblically permissible for divorce in the author’s opinion. You will find these 6 items at the end (conclusion) of the post. I must say after reading the post, these 6 biblical permissible reasons for divorce makes perfect sense to me, but I would like to hear your (and other Christians) opinions about this too. You (and others) can send your responses to the new thread. I will keep this current thread for further discussion on homosexuality only.

I myself will not post and contribute much during the next few days.

Blessings to all,
Suzet