I'm reading alot of anger motivated advice on this board, instead of the sharing of experience, strength and hope.

The tone has gotten quite shrill...

...and that bugs you? Thought it would remind you that this type of mood swing on the board has been seen before. Several times in fact since I have been here. I can think of at least 4 different period of times. Hm..... seems like it is cyclic.

Why?

Here's my theory:

1. Near the holidays....pressue t/b a family and reality says not a family right now. The stress and tension that creates is huge.

2. #1 coupled with the frustration of any recovery not being able t/b done in time for the holidays.

Guess other life events (holidays, birthdays, births, anniversaries, vacations, etc.) really put added stress on the BS.

3. Staying in plan A tooo long due to the having the wrong objective. This happends despite the fact that we all read the same info. Hm.... maybe the info needs to be clarified?!??!?

4. Fear of plan B again due to the wrong objective hanging in front of the BS. If we were to look at the wrong map and try to follow it, what's the chances of getting lost?

Ok, those are my theories.....

Hugz 2 u BR, I know what you are feeling. My take is that the current board hasn't seen enough recoveries and there are more of them pouring in than recovering. For that matter more are pouring in than D'ing but guess they can't see that. So since the majority are still in limbo....well you can see why the tension has been building.

Reminds me of a scene from the original Star Trek TV show.....'bout a crowded planet where all the citizens were in a room a squished together. To alleviate that, the rule was to sacrifice 1 person at specific intervals. Hm....

L.

whewww...
...slow weekend.

I'd have to agree with BrambleRose!
The boards do ocasionally swing to various extremes;
and it appears to me, what is being suggested (out of personal anger), is to jump to Plan B at the first sign of problems.

That is not at all the spirit of MB, as I have known it to be.

Before we speak out of hurt or anger or disgust...
...let us remember that the goal is to build... marriages.

Even those marriages that appear utterly broken...
...need a chance... to be heard... to comforted... to first catch a breath...
...and with kind hearts and kinder words, approach both spouses (BS and WS)...
...as Plan A would suggest.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NSR

NSR,

My POV is that the BS doesn't go to plan B quick enough and that leaves them doing a pseudo plan B while still implementing plan A of sorts. In other words frustration with the plans, wrong objective and delayed action to a firm plan B leads to a lot of anger.

Allowing one's self to live in fear of the unknown vs taking the bull by the horns creates an environment worse than any well executed plan B. It also keeps the BS in limbo and gives the WS the upper hand.

JMHO,
L.

I have to agree that a mixed-up Plan A or Plan B is most lickely worse than no Plan at all.

I've just come back to the forum after a long absence...
...so my sampling of posts may be off.

A clean implementation of Plan A...
...early and for a limited time... is so important...
as is a clean and clearly defined (also limited) Plan B!

Thanks,

Jim

When the helpees NEVER bother to READ the MB concepts .... that makes it waaay too hard to give Plan A or Plan B advice .... like trying to discuss English literature but having to teach basic English skills at the same time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I agree with both NSR and Pep.... and you 2 BR! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

See that's why this board needs balancing buddies like u all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now I gotta go retrieve some $$ from the post office. Isn't that a twist? Better yet, gonna get a make over or something like that.....boy this day is gonna be full of weird stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Aloha,
L.

And sometimes its hard for the BS to follow the advice, even though deep down we know it is right?? I think I had a longer Plan A basically b/c I was so chicken to expose. My Plan A was somewhat needy as well.

That can get frustrating for those of you providing the advise.

Kim

Orchid,

Quote:
My POV is that the BS doesn't go to plan B quick enough and that leaves them doing a pseudo plan B while still implementing plan A of sorts. In other words frustration with the plans, wrong objective and delayed action to a firm plan B leads to a lot of anger.

VERY well put!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Jim has it...truly.

Orchid, I know, I've been around here long enough to see cycles ~ I don't really think what I am bothered by is a cycle...

What I am seeing is almost a ... <sigh>...MB version of correctness...one that urges "dump the bum" before the BS is ready to do so.

Now, maybe it has worsened, due to the cycles..yes. There aren't alot of recovered people posting any longer.

Advice is a dangerous thing to give in these situations...this is why we pay professionals!

I know that if I had come to this board ~ as it is now ~ during my husband's affair...I would not have had the opportunity to grow that I had while my husband and I were separated. I think I would have been harmed.

I tried to "dump the bum" at the urgings of others long before I was ready. This was devastating to me.

I wasn't where I needed to be in personal growth and recovery.

I was in the right place personally many months later. "Dumping the bum" then was not the original angry dumping...I was calm, peaceful, and much stronger than the woman who had a DDay over a year before.

Where is the love, compassion, strength, hope in the messages we give to newcomers?

I've had to really back away from the boards lately, the strident anger was more than I really could take.

Well, Bramble, in my personal opinion, we have a few more "dump the bum" cases on here lately (and I'm not referring to the situation you and I had a difference of opinion on; I really did respect your POV on that one, which was based on experience). I mean cases where there is substance abuse, or addictions, or someone in jail. I know it's hard for me to look at those, when they are often getting Plan A advice and they really need to protect themselves for the time being. So I'm not posting much. You can say it once and then you need to shut up.

I'm with A.M. Martin. There seems to be more situations where the WS gets to string out the cake eating due to fear- and these are situations that arent healthy at all for the BS.

~ Principles Before Personalities ~

~ Living in The Solution Eliminates The Problem ~

~ Feelings Are Not Facts, And I Own Mine ~

~ Live & Let Live ~

~ To Thine Own Self Be True ~

~ What Other People Think is None of My Business ~

~ If I Don't Like The Answers, I Best Not Ask ~

... I think this was unwarrented and disrespectful.

Do you really believe...... or there is no mending and no grace?

NSR

~ Acceptance is The Answer to ALL My Problems Today ~


Thank you, and Good-night.

BrambleRose, thank you for this post. I've not been around much the past couple months but in reading the posts tonight, I do see what you mean.
MB concepts are great and it's the ONLY reason my H is still here with the family. I admit I do not agree with each and every part but each affair is different and we all know that.
MB concepts have to be adapted to each situation in my opinion. That is not everyone's opinion, only mine.
Its so good to see that you are still around, along with Pep and Orchid.
We all have to remember this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not marriage busters!

Ok. let me speak from experience! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If a BS is not being phsyically or financially harmed - then what is the rush to pry them from where they are, and force them into Plan B or D?

So what if the WS is also an addict? To say: Oh well your husband is addicted, don't bother is not really fair.

Yes the marriage can not ever be what it should be while there is addiction of any kind present. But that doesn't mean the BS is even remotely ready to deal with that concept.

IT TAKES TIME.

I believe it is far more important that the BS learn to detach with love, take the focus off the WS, put the focus on themselves, take responsiblity for themselves, step out of victimhood, and to learn acceptance.

"Dump the bum" does not help.

Once someone has done learned the lessons needed...the BS is fully prepared and able to make good decisions for themselves about their lives!

I am a firm believer, that with the exception of harm and abuse, that no life altering decisions should be made while the BS is reeling in shock, anger, hurt and devastation.

What is the rush to push them to action that they are NOT ready to make? They are not in a mental state to even judge what the right actions are!

Yes, lots of us could recite the script in our sleep. We can certainly predict lots of stuff. That does not mean that the newcomers should just hand over responsiblity to US, and do whatever we suggest, skipping the whole growth process that needs to happen! How incredibly arrogant to think that we know how someone else should make their choices?

And dare I say, there are alot of very hurt, very angry people, who probably think they are helping by urging actions that they wish they had taken in their own situations....

I think each of us needs to carefully examine where our 'advice' is motivated from!

Professionals don't get paid outrageous sums of cash for nuthin!

It takes time to learn, time to grow. Time to come to acceptance.

My husband is an addict.

My husband had an affair.

It took me well over a year before I reached a point where I was detached, and living in reality. Longer really, as I started my growth process even before his affair started.

How do I say this without sounding arrogant?

How many times do people say to me: Wow BR, you are so wise!

How do you think I got that wisdom?

Not because I am smarter than even one person on this board!

I lived through every single painful second - I struggled, and cried, and fought with my Al Anon sponsor, looked for every shortcut, every loophole, tried every which way I could to get my will accomplished...I blamed God, yelled at God, ignored God, demanded that God follow MY PLAN...

And finally ... exhausted.... I surrendered my will. And my life turned around.

If I had dumped the bum because he was an alcoholic and not worth wasting my time learning to Plan A on...I would not have experienced the life lessons I needed to learn!!!

In fact, I probably would have gone on to yet another alcoholic relationship...having learned very little about ME.

I had to stay in the situation as long as I did because I needed that long to learn the lessons I needed to learn!!!

If someone had just handed me the instruction booklet and told me not to bother trying to understand, to just "do it" I would not be half the wonderful woman I am today.

Yes, that's why I think it's best in some of these cases to say one's truth and then "shut up."

NSR, I think you misunderstood me -- it's simply a matter that it's not useful for me to harp on a point. For ME. And I know that a lot of people disagree -- and some of the people who harped on me to do a PBL, looking back on it, were right and I am grateful for their harping. And when posting to people, one never knows all the circumstances, anyway.

I'm glad it worked out for you, Bramble, truly. And looking back, I don't see anything I could have done differently that would have made much of a difference, though our stories are very different. Or rather, yes, if I'd known what I know now -- but we have to live life forwards, not backwards.

For what it's worth, the Harleys seem to think in the case of addictions that the MB principles aren't effective -- that one has to move into a "tough love" situation and let the other person solve their problems on their own -- directly to a Plan B, as I understand it. (Also, I don't view Plan B as anything but kind, especially when initiated by a loving PBL.) Since this is an MB board, I expect many people are citing that line of thought. Which isn't to say it never works out any other way. I don't have enough experience to comment either way.

Now that you mention it, though, I may see another strand in what you're seeing. People seem to want to pick a fight a lot. I don't mind confrontation, but it can be done respectfully, with a genuine wish to understand another point of view, or augment or supplement or even contradict it -- rather than putting on one's punching gloves.

And now I'll practice what I preach and sign off this thread!

There is no short answer to recovery.

'Dump the bum.' is a short answer.

Now plan A your the bum/dork/darth/WS......, then plan A your spouse and plan B the WS..... see that takes longer to say and longer t/d. Up front.

After a good plan A is executed (for the right reason: 4 U), then there are 2 options:

1. If the WS is still a WS, then doing a good plan B or D (to the WS), is needed depending on how the BS feels. Yea, at this point if a BS initiates a D, who can blame him/her?


2. If the WS turns into an Xws, then depending on how the BS feels, it c/b back to a plan A sytle with recovery mode for both the BS and Xws with the Xws doing most of the recovery work.

If plan B is selected, then the BS sets their boundaries (s/b predefined while doing plan A.....like towards the end of plan A - 'cuz it 's a learned thing). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Then executing plan B begins to protect the BS and family.

NOTE: This mode still means all obligations (financial/parental/etc.) are still required. I often here, there are bills t/b paid, I am in plan B, what do I do?

Hey, the creditor's, the law and your kids don't care about your plan B, they require us t/d our jobs as parents and sane people. So they are not part of any plan B option.

Instead going into plan B and outlining which topics would allow communication and how is IMHO, vital. In my case it was limited to Mail, $$ and child visitation. H ran a business from home. He had obligations, I respected and honored that. I wanted him to be responsible for his obligations. Yes, as a WS he tried to shirk those responsiblities. After all isn't that what A's are all about?

So I kept it limited and got a 'bite' almost immediately. It was hard not to stray into the 'other' topic areas....but I tried hard. It hurt my heart NOT t/b able to talk to the WS about our real problems. Yet that letting go (detachment) was a real protection to me and frustrated the heck out of the A participants.

See have control over what you will and won't tolerate. The OW in my case accused me of NOT being responsbile. Ohhhh I socked it to her big time.... in plan B I gave her the challenge t/b responsible for the Ws....after all, I certainly couldn't be responsible for such a wayward person. Yep, I gave it over to her. Now she couldn't accuse me of anything....she already accused me of abadoning the WS and causing the demise of his buisness....... I knew I had no time to kill his business, I was too busy working, paying bills, keeping up a house, taking care of our child and all other obligations I had committed to. So I gave the babble to the WS and OW.

Now after a while, when my mind and heart sync'd up...... after I came to the realization I did my best, I realized plan B helped me, then I was ready for plan D. The point is as BS I went to plan B and D when I was ready, not when the WS was ready. So letting the WS threats about the D hurt me stopped when I took control. I told the WS, 'you want a D? U, that's your choice.....u go get it....don't make me do your dirty work for you.'

Later when I informed him to go get the D, he asked me why. I informed him that as a BS, I am slow.....saving my family and my M were important to me but I eventually realized that after I was comfortable knowing I did my best and he was still out there in lala land, then a D w/b a good thing. Oh you see the WS does not like it when the ideas come from the BS......and that was a tool at my disposal..... I let the WS know that my mind and heart were in sync.....that while I could never understand how he as a Ws would choose D, I could understand how myself as a BS would need to choose the D. I had moral, financial and scriptural grounds to do so. I let him know that his A was a setup to fail plan from the start but if that was his choice, then so be it. I am removing myself from his problem.

See I never painted him in a good light. Instead, I just took myself out of his problem. It took a while but that was ok, I was in uncharted territory and so getting my bearings took a while.

Not sure how much of this rambling makes sense......that's what I try to post when here to help others. Maybe that's why my posts tend t/b soooo long. LOL !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How good are professionals? I know it is t/b judged by their fees. Most are quite high but inbetween the fakes are some good pros. Steve & Jennifer are among those good ones and when I can, I recommend the BS or Xws get support to plan a good recovery.

Now recovery comes in 2 stages, individual and marital. It is important to work on the personal one 1st.

What I don't like is all the spilling of the BS guts in their plan A or plan B letters/stages. Phrases like: [color:"red"] "Dear WS, .....I am sorry for what I have done to contribute to your A....',[/color] is hogwash for me. Rather I see this demise as a team effort. Something more like: [color:"blue"] 'WS, I sure miss my real H, I'd like to let him/her know that I have been working on improving myself. My heart knows that we both need to improve. While I can't apolgoize for sending you to the A, I can apologize for errors I have made in our M. I wish you as my life partner could have helped me realize these errors instead of having an A, but well.....good thing I learned how to fix 'em right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ...... ' [/color] Something like that

Gotta go....running out of staying up power. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Great thread and a great post BrambleRose!


I would just like to add emotional abuse or what I would call psycho-terror here. In my case, although not physically abused or put into financial straits, my WH had become emotionally so cruel and the psychological abuse unbearable. Plan B was a survival tactic.

Orchid,

You've taken me under your wing and coached me.

I had strayed so far from my original boundaries and instilled self esteem... it took some hard work and personal recovery before i was even able to execute a Plan A...
Then I did it well, I think. And as I began to recover at your coaxing, I started to think again about boundaries to protect myself. I re-discovered my boundaries. I lived them, I voiced them, in a gentle loving manner. They were trampled on.

Plan B was the consequence. Plan B protects my boundaries, my haven. I am in a safe place now. I can stay here for a while. I am physically and financially safe. And now, for the first time in years, I am emotionally and psychologically safe. And what is happening? My spirit is growing!!! There are growing pains. And it can be awkward. But I'm alright and my children are once again thriving.

You know what Orchid? My heart and mind are meeting in the present moment... past and future are beginning to play a lesser role.


And so you vets, lamenting about more positive times on the forum ... I know no other time and I know that you have all been a vital part of my own personal recovery.

So there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well LT, not to distract too much from BR's post.... I must say that you are a lady of distinction (sp??) and grace.

I graciously accept that 2X4 you whalloped up against my MB brain. Why? 'Cuz u r right. For those of us here for a few years, we see a trend and it hurts to see new faces in old trends. Maybe like a doctor or nurse who sees sick patients every day.... the drama no longer exists....it is more routine and the answers are too plain to see, too visible that sometimes we lose the skills to show empahty.

As for your progress, it is good to see you getting to those turning points for yourself and your family. Really do appreciate your helping out. Fresh POVs are always welcomed.

See we can all learn here. Sometimes we need a refresher ourselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Orchid,
Not really a 2x4, but meant as encouragement for yours!!!
Keep your cattle prods coming at me, my friend!

Many warm, sisterly,
and very respectful hugs...
LT

Learn the value of TIME AND PATIENCE...

I'm going to add this to my THOUGHTS THREAD...

SO TRUE.....

I loved your last post, BR...

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY...

I agree, of course it takes time to come to the point of acceptance. And I don't "[censored]"u"me" for one second that my case is any worse then anyone else's. There's always someone that's had a lot more pain and tragedy to endure besides "poor little me." But then ... there's such a thing as wallowing in it; living in the solution eliminates the problem, and it's my responsibility to decide whether or not to do that ... or to take my sweet time wallowing in it.

In my case, it's very important to choose how I will spend my time; life is short ... and precious if I take the actions necessary to make life mean so to me. Complaining gets me nowhere if I'm not going to make a decision.