It has been awhile since I have posted an update here. I changed names from Tired Dad to Damage_Inc. The new one fits my behaviors a bit better (unfortunately), and I have always been a big Metallica fan!

A quick background, married 12yrs, had a big, big fight in May (my fault), I initiated MC, she withdrew emotionaly, she had 2 month A that ended when I discovered it on d-day 29 July05.

We began MC again. She stated she wanted reconiliation. For two months she did try, but I was unable to accept her attempts. For whatever reason, looking back I can see it was a desire for revenge, but at the time all I knew was that I felt overwhelming resentment and anger towards her. I did want reconciliation, but emotionaly I was so unable to deal with the reality of her having an A that we made zero progress. We attend the MB seminar 30Sept / 1 Oct. No improvement. My anger and resentment was something that made me unable to see the reality that she was trying. I tormented her even though in my mind I did want reconciliation.

Mid-October we started an informal seperation. Things continued to go poorly when we were together. One off word by her that I took as a sign that she was finished with the marriage would send me in to a panic which made me feel attacked so I would attack back.

Her counselor was throwing out diagnosises on me such as narccicistic personality disorder, my counselor was saying no, boderline personality disorder. I didn't like hearing either one but acknowledged that I fit some of the criteria for each. I didn't understand my behavior, didn't like it, always felt guilty for it.

A week ago, on my own accord, I went to my doctor and requested to start a mood stabilizer. I truly feel like a different person. Even with my marriage probably over, my mood hasn't been this light in years. I am not happy about my marriage situation, but I am finding pleasure and relaxation in other areas of my life.

Thinking about my marriage ending does not send me in to an uncontrollable panic now. I don't want it to happen, but if it does, I know that it wont be the end of the world. Thinking about her A, which I do less and less anymore, doesn't make me break down like it always used to. It makes me feel sad, but not overwhelmingly so.

She is saying that she doesn't know if she can try again. Her counselor is telling her to file for divorce. She saw a lawyer at her counselors recomendation who is telling her the same thing.


I have come to the rational realization that her A is no more of a sin than my past repeated porn use. Emotioanly I still have trouble accepting that, but I know in my head that it is so. I told her this but she says I am just saying the words and don't really believe them.

I posted on the semiar attendees board this past Wednesday and Dr Harley said





Unfortunately my wife has no desire to talk with him.
I still pray that our marriage can be saved. Now, I feel that I am emotionaly ready to be able to do so.

I just wanted to give everyone an update......

My hope is that sooner or later I will be able to give a positive update on a marriage that I still want to save......

THIS is soooooo correct!

[color:"red"]BRAVO Dr. Harley[/color]

Tired Dad/Damage

First of all ... I congratulate you on your efforts so far.

It takes a big person to face big problems.

Keep striving toward a healthier you ... and keep your 'side of the street' clean as far as future marriage reconciliation goes ...

as in ... don't go out and date or see other women ....

it ain't over 'till it's over ....

keep your welcome mat out for your wife and be ready to do the necessary work should she decide to return to you ...

best of wishes

Pepperband,

Thanks for the reply. I am thinking the informal seperation is over. She stayed here during my week with the kids. The way we were working, to be the least intrusive on the kids, was for she and I to alternate weeks with the one on the off week staying with their parents
Well this past week was mine, but at her counselors and lawyers advice, she didn't leave.

I had been advised the same thing by my lawyer, but was willing to alternate as a sign of trust and good faith. I can't really do that now if it is not going to be returned.

The funny thing is, I don't want to attribute the difference in my outlook entirely to the new medicine because I have been praying for this constantlp, but I so feel like not arguing. Even when she is in a less than freindly mood, I FEEL like letting it go. It is not that my mood is such that I am able to control my argumentative impulses... the arguementative impulses are not there. When she says something that in the past I would take as a challenge, whether it be her tone or words, now I don't feel the urge to say anything back. And honestly it has left me with more time to do things around the house and spend time with the kids because that time has not been spent arguing.

I can't remember the last time in my life that I didn't feel argumentative or diagreeable with life in general. I am 35 and I would not be stretching it to say I would have to go back to elementery school, because I know that I was argumentative and divisive in Jr high.

In my heart, even though I am a PharmD, I have to give thanks to God. He either worked the changes in me, or planted the idea to pursue treatment with a mood stabilizer. Either way, I give all thanks to Him.

This is the season of miracles.. I will continue to pray for one to occur for my family.

Thanks for the update. I have thought of both of you often - kept checking to see if you'd posted. Since I usually 'hang out' on EN's, I appreciate the link you posted there.

Sorry to hear things have not improved much. I agree that IC tends to destroy marriages more than help. I hope you continue to be in contact with the Harleys.

I will also be praying for you. God bless.
[color:"white"] - [/color]

I hear what you're saying about the medication. Your relief is palpable, and I'm glad it's working so well.

But I have to warn you, it's only a bandaid.

It's covering up part of your primary problem as Dr. Harley identified it -- selfishness and poor impulse control. The medication may be making a difference for now, but there's no way it can get rid of all harmful impulses you'll ever have. Until you learn to control your behavior despite the presence if negative impulses, your wife is wise to stay away from you.

MOS,

I hear what you are saying. But honestly, first and foremost I just want to end the behavior. If I can come to the point of understanding why I did it, great, but my primary concern is ending it for the present and future.

As for my marriage, I understand the pain my W is in, and she has caused me great pain as well. What I have come to understand is, I can be mad at her all the time or I can try to save my marriage, but I cannot do both. Also, we can both wallow in that pain, which will no doubt result in a divorce, or we can both move forward together as if we have never been hurt. If we do the latter, our marriage stands a chance. If W can't do this, then I guess we are just forestalling the inevitable.

I understand her hesitancy regarding my behavior. And it has only been 2 weeks since my mood has stabilized. For the first time in I can't remember when, I am OK with my life. I want to save my marriage and am willing what I can to save it. But, life in general feels good for me right now. I can't really explain it. I just feel contented.

When I do think of her A I feel sad. And when I do think about how she used to feel towards me, when I miss her love and affection, it hurts. When I try to show her affection and I see and feel her stiffen and pull away, it hurts.
But it doesn't throw me into the feeling of despair and panic like it used to.

And when I think of how I used to treat her, I feel very bad and guilty. I would love to have that opportunity to do it all over again. To go back to that first night on our wedding day and start again. But I can't.
Either she will decide to try again, or she won't.

I wish she would talk to Dr Harley, but she won't.

My perception of my future is that I will continue the medication for several months while continuing therapy to learn appropraite impulse control, reactions to stress, etc.... Then, hopefully my marriage will be stable, and I can start tapering the medicine down. With the help of a counselor, and hopefully with the vigilance of my W, I can taper it and respond to any behavioral issues that may arise during the tapering off of the medicine.

Or, I will be a single guy tapering off with the help of my counselor and friends. I do have friends. I haven't really had a W in the real sense of the word in 6 months or so (she will say she hasn't had a H in the true sense of the word in years, and she is probably right). And in the past months I have developed better friendships, ones that I will not just drop if my marriage survives.

Either way, I will handle my bidness....

I agree that this is soooo true. My x went to a personal counselor and absolutely refused to let me go. I looked in her journal from her sessions (I know I should not have but I was desperate for answers). Anyway, from the start, her counselor was giving her advice on divorce and seperation. There was NOTHING on working on the marraige. To this day, I would like to tell her so called "marraige" counselor exactly what I think of her.

Have you really thought about what you're planning on asking her to do here?

Basically, your plan is that she will be your guinea pig. You'll experiment with various ways of controlling your behavior, and she'll take the fallout.

Having seen just how asinine you can be when you have a tantrum, I sure as ****** wouldn't sign up for that, no matter how much I once loved you.

I don't think what you want to accomplish is undoable any more than Dr. Harley does. But I do think you're still not taking all this seriously enough. And I think you need to be able to offer her some much better guarantees on your behavior than you have thus far if you want to interest her in sticking around.

MOS,

I am not sure what other options I have except planning on staying on meds for the rest of my life.

You know, this is not easy for me. I know that I have issues to take care of within myself, but if my marriage continues in to the new year, it has issues too.

I guess my other option is to file for divorce right now, continue my counseling and learn contructive techniques for anger and stress management, then start over again.

Honestly, this is probably the most likely option. Regardless of what changes I make, medicine assisted or not, my W appears too attached to her anger, resentment, and disdain towards me for our marriage to move forward. I am willing to put her A in the past. In fact I do not bring it up anymore, even when her statements about some of my past actions drip with hypocrasy. I am not going to wallow in it anymore. I have been stuck in despair, panic, depression, and lonliness for 6 months now. It has honestly been years since my mood felt as positive as it does now. And that is no lie, right now my mood is POSITIVE.

But our marriage has so many strikes against it. My past treatment of her, her A, and my treatment of her post-A when I was unable to cope with it emotionally.

I am willing to start anew as if she has never hurt me. She is either unwilling or unable to do so.

I continue to go to counseling to try to change the issues I have. Since our seperation began 5-6 weeks ago I have gone weekly.... she has gone once.

I will continue my IC, but I think Harley is right. My IC is about me. It has zero focus on my W or my marriage. A marriage that is on life support like ours needs immediate attention or it is gone.

When we went to MC right after d-day, the MC asked for 6 months from me. Well, that will be the end of January. I can hold on until then. I have 3 children with the woman who I still believe is the love of my life, a woman whom I have been with since I was 17 and she was 15, that is over 1/2 of our lives together! A woman whom I felt like I was intertwined with because she was my rock, she kept the family together, she supported me emotionally. I always thought I was the weaker one emotionally. She made every house we were in a home.

I know that if she was able to, that she could once again be that wife.


Make no mistake, I am not the victim here. I put myself in the situation I am now in.

It reminds me of when a coach is asked after a loss if it was a good learning experience for the team, and he says "If you have to lose to learn something than you are pretty stupid".

I guess I am pretty stupid because I am going to lose my W, my marriage, and my family because I learned too late.


Happy friggin new year....

Well that's a lovely cop-out, but that's all it is, a cop-out.

It is a nice example of why I think you're still not taking this seriously enough.

You talk about this all in terms of making a good effort, not in terms of taking absolute responsibility. You'll go to therapy and take the meds (good effort), but in the end your wife is expected to take whatever fallout there happens to be. You'll accept some options that show you're trying, but you're skipping making it your business to move heaven and earth without rest until you find options that work for your wife.

Basically you've got it backwards. Your notion is you'll make a good effort, and let the chips fall where they may. What you've abundantly proven so far is that like any human being, so long as a good effort is the only goal, cutting corners here and there starts to creep in until basically what you have is a long-term quest for minimums -- for the minimum effort that you can get away with and that your wife will accept. What you need to get straight in your head is that this backwards attitude will never work -- it's your business to make sure the chips don't fall where they'll do harm. No matter what. Even if it takes an unreasonable effort. Even if you half-kill yourself making it happen. Even if you have to lock yourself in a closet to protect others. Whatever it takes, not just a good effort and oh well if it's not enough.

Damage_Inc. --
How about if you email Dr. Harley and let him know about the physical abuse? Crashing through a door to a wife and 3 year old is a much more compelling reason for a wife to file for divorce than having some counselor label you has having BPD. If your W won't talk to him, at least you can give him the whole story. Your W's perspective is on Pepperband's thread.

My spouse won't talk with Dr. Harley, either, but I have tried as best I could to give him both perspectives.

Cherishing

I understand that. But I also say that IF / when I try to taper off the meds, there is a possibility that I will have some rough spots. Right now, I don't have an angry feeling like I have had since my early teenage years. Maybe it is the meds suppressing that, maybe I have awakened to something. I don't know.

However, as I continue therapy and learn techniques to control my negative behaviors, those techniques will not necessarily be "put to the test" if it is the medication that is suppressing my feelings of anger. So, if I was to begin tapering the meds, I would assume there would be some rough spots as I have to put the techniques into practice when confronted with anger. I would prefer to not look at it as my wife being a guinea pig, but my wife helping someone she loves as they are working to improve themselves.
I want my marriage to work. I feel guilty for the pain I have caused my W. I want her to be happy. And if it is selfish for me to want her to be happy with me, then so be it, I am selfish.

I don't think anyone can say "I will never ever lose my temper for the rest of my life". I can't say that. But I do not feel that I am a physically violent guy. The door thing I take full responsibility for, it was a bad f**ked up situation that I did not handle well at all. I had absolutely no intention of wanting to hurt my wife. I never have. I can say that I have had numerous, numerous situations in and outside my marriage / family in which I was able to refrain from engaging in physically violent or physically confrontational behavior. My wife can attest to that. My lack of control has always been my mouth.

I have always had a severe lack of control when it comes to lashing out verbally. All I can say is that I am working on it. Honestly, I can say that I have never really had to learn to control my emotions until now.

As far as cutting corners, etc.... I know that won't work. IF my marriage continues, I won't trust my W for a long time, and she won't trust me for even longer. And both of us will be justified in that respect.

Look, I have done some seriously difficult stuff in my life, both mentally and physically. I know that if I make this my primary goal and objective that I will not fail. I have the strength and ability to accomplish this.

Ya know, right after d-day I could have filed and be divorced by now. I could have blown off all my W's complaints about my pre-A behavior and gone on with my life, inflicted my bad behavior and relationship skills on to another woman. But I haven't. I have stuck around and tried to work through emotions that I don't understand. I have acknowledged my blame for the state of my marriage and tried to improve myself. I remember sitting in the MC's office for a individual meeting asking her, begging her to help me find ways to prevent the angry behaviors that I could not seem to get a handle on. She had no real answers for me. So she passed me to a male counselor. I saw him 3-4 weeks and while understanding his approach, I still felt the anger inside. I went to my doctor of my own decision. My decision was not arrived at from any discussion or recomendation from my counselor. I went and told my doctor my emotional problems and told him exactly what medicine I wanted to try. I had researched my options. I am a PharmD so I know about meds. I understand that my anger is not healthy. My anger about the A and my anger that I have felt towards about everything and everyone in general for years. I understand that left unresolved it will leave me as someone all alone because I continually push everyone away.

And now, for whatever reason, I feel at peace. My realationship with my kids is much better. My interactions with other people is much better. Even though my W is not exactly "warm" to me, my interactions with her are better as well. I don't feel the need to take slight at everything / anything she does. If she is aggrevated towards me, I let it go. She says my changes are superficial, just me doing what I think I need to do to keep her in the fold. But she doesn't know how I feel inside. And I don't expect her to. I would hope my continued actions could speak for themselves, but I doubt that the marriage has enough time left in it for that to occur. And that is too bad.

I miss my wife. I sat on the bed last night (we are kinda seperated, so I slept elsewhere) trying to get her to let me comfort her, to let me try to help her with her pain. But she is a brick wall towards me at this time. And I have to accept that this may not change.

I know this has been a long rambling respone to your post, but I am sure there are some good things in there for you to pick out.

Thanks for your interest. It does help me.

Damage_Inc.
My H, four years ago next month, punched me and broke my arm when I was threatening to call this woman whom he said kept calling her and it would be rude of him to hang up. In fact, he was having an affair with her. When the affair was finally exposed because I called the woman's husband and told him what I knew and he got the truth out of the affair partner and called me, I was very angry. For a long, long, long time. Much angrier about the affair than the broken arm -- and the arm required three surgeries. I was in a cast or splint up past my elbow from before Christmas until after Easter. The affair hurt far worse. I empathize with the impact on you of the affair.

I think that I had a commitment to marriage no matter what and was pretty much willing to put up with no matter what. He was, too. After years of this, he wandered into an affair.

Now I don't have a commitment to marriage no matter what. I'm not willing to be married if he wants to be happy at my expense (whether it be have an affair or make me put up with a sister's spanking one of our children) and I'm not willing to be married if the only way I can be happy is at his expense. Win-win.

Pep's got a thread on the book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" and it talks about the Renter philosophy of win-lose eventually leads to abuse.

Your W seems to be hesitant. If you let Harley know the truth, that there has been angry outbursts to the point of bashing down a door, he might be able to give you some useful advice. As it is, he's focused on recovery from an affair. An affair is a big problem in marriage, but he has told me that abuse is worse. He's trying to help you address the affair issue without being informed of the abuse problem.

Also, you might want to consider that you don't have a mental health problem. You just never grew up. I am now reading books on dealing with teenagers, since we have an 11 year old who is showing signs of teenage behavior like angry outbursts. It has occurred to me that we've been like two teenagers throughout most of our marriage. There's a book called "How to Talk to Teenagers so Teenagers will Listen and Listen so Teenagers will Talk" that has been particularly helpful to me. A friend of mine said to me that he's been my first teenager and she might be right. What she did not add, but I am adding, is that I was as much of a teenager as he was.

Cherishing

yes.... this is correct

keep yourself well-behaved
that is your job # 1

Most psychiatrists recommend at least a year on a mood stabilizer that works for you ... who prescribed this anyway?

That's still a cop-out.

Will I lose my temper again at some point in my life? Probably.

However, I would at any time happily sign a written contract that I would never blow up at my spouse, and I would include all kinds of specifics as to what "blow up" meeans. I would also include a clause that if I do not keep my guarantee, I would move out immediately and my spouse never needs to take me back.

I think that's perfectly reasonable. I think it's reasonable for any married person to be willing to do. Are you willing to do that for your wife?


Might want to get some better drugs then, because the proof is that you ARE a physically violent guy. This denial of reality alone is enough to make it clear you're not serious yet.

with every success you will gain confidence that you can learn to manage your emotions better

in other words ... it does get more 'automatic' over time

I don't agree. I have been aggressive in the past in a verbal sense. But I still don't feel that I am a physically violent person.

I feel that I am on an appropriate path for my needs right now. You may not agree with everything I say or do. Fine. You may be right, but I may be right as well.

I can say that for the past several days my W has not exactly rolled out the red carpet for me but yet I have been able to overlook things that in the past I would have taken as a challenge to fight about.

So my personal issues are one thing, my marriage is a totally seperate issue.

In regards to my marriage, I have to show my W changes on a consistent basis, and I am trying to do that. However, my W also needs to show me changes on a consistent basis.

We BOTH have some proving to do.

The fact that I have had problems controlling my anger and verbal outburts do not in any way cancel out her actions of betrayal of me.

I am not going to drown myself in the pain from her A, but it is still something that has not been healed.

So have you done yet what a very wise poster advised, and told Dr. Harley about the physical abuse so he can give you appropriate advice?

Nope... that would be a very long post. I have NEVER had the intent or desire to hurt my wife physically. The "door incident" was not an instance of me trying to hurt her. I felt very bad about it afterwards, and still do. Unintended consequences are still consequences, of which I am responsible for.

It's not that I wouldn't want to get assistance from Dr Harley, I do. But currently my W doesn't want to speak with him, period. If she comes to the point where she wants to "re-engage" in trying to reconcile, and I am still wanting to as well, everything will be on the table from my perspective. I would welcome Dr Harley's input for sure. I am not trying to hide or sugar coat any of my behavior.

I still say that I am not physically abusive. Numerous times during our marraige during arguements, W would push me, etc... and dare me to hit her. I never did, never have, never will.

I yell. I get nasty mean when I yell. It has to stop, I know this. I need to learn how to communicate like a mature adult. But I do not physically assault anyone.

I believe you.

Pepper,

I would say thanks, but my mean verbal habits have been pretty bad. They are enough to make me embarrassed about my behavior in general.

Regardless, I will continue to work on "me". I hope my W is the benefactor of that work, just as at this time I still hope to be the benefactor of her work on herself.

Only time will tell if the marriage survives. But I am confident that I will change for the better regardless of the outcome of my marriage. Heck, my marriage is basically over right now, but I continue to stay committed to working on my issues.

The door incident is physical abuse.

Yes, I know you want to define physical abuse in such a way that doesn't include that incident. But your definition of physical abuse is irrelevant to what you want to accomplish. What is relevant is the effect your behavior has on your wife, and any expert in dealing with such scenarios would classify that incident as physical abuse because of the effects it has on your wife.

Ok, so you have a reason for not telling Dr. Harley some relevant information for now. If you're going to post his advice to you like you did here, you really should be honest enough to include the info that he was working off incomplete information, that you hadn't told him a critical part of the problem.

What about the contract idea I mentioned above? Why not offer that idea to your wife?

TD...

After the description of thie door incident and your attempt to mince words about whether it is abusive or not, I'm beginning to see MOS's point about you not wanting to acknowledge the problem.

Early during my treatment for depression, I related an incident to my therapist about throwing a TV into the backyard because I was angry. He told me that was abusive to my family. I wanted to argue y saying exactly what you are saying..."But I would never hurt them!" My therapist told me that if it happened so much as ONE more time, that he would advise me to separate from my family for THEIR safety.

THAT hit home with me. I have never since punched a wall or thrown an object.

But here's the rub...you are showing them out of control behavior. How do THEY know it won't be them next time? Your actions speak far louder than your words.

As MOS suggests...make the deal. If you EVER behave badly again, then your wife is free to go...and probably should. If you don't think you can do this, then I'd recommend you separate from them until you can control yourself fully.

While you may not consider yourself "physically abusive", you are violent and lack self control. You have already injured your wife because of it.

Your family is not safe around you. Do what must be done to protect them from you. You cannot wait until you get "better" to do it.

Low

Tired Dad --

My H kicked in furniture, put a hole in a door, broke a windshield, etc. before he threw ONE punch and broke my ulna (one of the bones in the forearm) into seven pieces. Physical abuse of things is just training for physical abuse of people.

Even if your W is not willing to talk with Dr. Harley, you could ask his advice about how to proceed. She has three young children. You are not replaceable. What would be best for her and those children would be if you went through the MB program and learned how to negotiate to win-win agreements.

And look at her post:
"Last week T_D came over, got upset, and broke a crystal bowl that was on the coffee table. That is when the counselor told me to file for divorce. Only after no signs of change in T_D's behavior and continued violent outburts did she say this. She was not looking for an "easy" way to solve my problem.
<p> I am in no way wanting to come on here and "bash" my H. I know he is in his own horrible pain due to what I did, and he is entitled to anger, grief, and sadness. I care about him deeply, and do not want to cause him any more pain. I only wanted to clear up the sitch a bit because the impression that my counselor is just telling me to file for divorce as an easy way out is just not correct. I hardly call divorce an "easy way out," no matter what the circumstance. She feels that at this point, it is the safest choice for me, and the kids, so they hopefully won't have to see any more of this stuff."

Your W probably looked at that smashed crystal bowl and considered what would happen to her three children if she ended up in a graveyard and you ended up in jail. Now you are lamenting on this site how your W has left you, how she had an A, how she won't speak with Dr. Harley...

AND you are not owning up to the fact that she has very good reason to fear for her safety and the safety of her children.

First step to take: own up on the private forum to the behaviors that led to the divorce filing. It was not her inability to get over an affair. It was her seeing a crystal bowl smashed by you in her presence.

Cherishing

PS My H still doesn't get the hang of win-win negotiating, but he has not hit me since he threw me down on my cast March 22, 2002. It is possible to get over being physically abusive. The first step is to take 100% responsibility for it.

This is how his wife describes the event:


and this ....


He is really making an effort here to change ... and I, for one, support his efforts.

Please note, his wife was also physically violent. And he did not escalate when she became violent, he stopped.

I went to one domestic violence meeting at a women's shelter and saw all these women complaining about the men, as if they didn't have anything in common.

Women who stay in homes with domestic violence believe in win-lose agreements. This woman certainly made a decision to have an affair without having her husband's best interest in mind. The root cause of an affair is similar to that of abuse -- it is lack of care for the spouse.

Whether she "smacked" him or not, he's bigger than she is and can kill her. It's easier that I realized. I have a cracked skull.

Cherishing

Just as a point of clarification, I happen to know that this did NOT happen in her presence. And her conclusion that that Damage_Inc smashed the crystal bowl in anger is circumstantial and, I believe, wrong.

Exactly.

Damage_Inc has, so far as I know, never hit BreakingThread. I don't think you can find where she claims he has, either.

No one is excusing her behavior, Pep. And I appaud his efforts to change as well...but MOS and Cherished have a point. Male on female DV is MUCH more likely to result in serious injury or death.

He cannot afford even ONE more incident. He has to decide TODAY that there will be NO MORE.

It would be healthy for BT to make the same committment, but she is not on this thread.

It reminds me of a parable...a cop pulss me over for rolling through a stop sign. He says "You ran that stop sign". I say "But I slowed down". He says "If I were beating you with my billy club, would you want me to slow down or would you want me to STOP?". I said "I get your point...write me the ticket"

T-D must STOP

I agree - I think that one more AO on his part will be the end of this marriage.

T-D has not refuted this. If this did happen...his W was injured as result of his violent behavior...abuse has occurred. Intent is irrelevant. It was not "accidental"

We do him no favors by downplaying the severity of this act.

I am exceptionally sympathetic...I've had to make that same decision years ago. It was sobering.

How do you know this? Cuz he emailed you that it didn't? I was only about 10 feet away when the bowl was broken. I did not see it happen as I had my back turned and was facing into the kitchen. Did he tell you that after he broke it the first time he picked up the several of the biggest of the broken pieces and threw then down on the floor again as I walked away from him because he was angry with me again? A couple small shards of that glass hit me in the back, but did not break the skin. Our kids were all in the vicinity when this was going on, not int he room, but downstairs and within earshot. I'm sure he claims to you that he kicked or bumped the table the bowl was on and that it fell onto the floor and broke. That is bunk. I have placed a similar glass bowl on the table and kicked and pushed the table as hard as I can to see if that would happen and the bowl did not budge. It did not even fall off of the table, let alone fly the 2 plus feet needed to hit the tile in front of the fireplace, which is where the original bowl landed and broke into pieces.

This is a man exposing his dark underbelly here ... and a man saying he is struggling out of years of uglyness.... and he may not be "there" yet ... but read what he says ... he is fighting to become a better man!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ he says:

I have come to the rational realization that her A is no more of a sin than my past repeated porn use.

But honestly, first and foremost I just want to end the behavior. If I can come to the point of understanding why I did it, great, but my primary concern is ending it for the present and future.

And when I think of how I used to treat her, I feel very bad and guilty. I would love to have that opportunity to do it all over again. To go back to that first night on our wedding day and start again. But I can't.

Make no mistake, I am not the victim here. I put myself in the situation I am now in.

I want my marriage to work. I feel guilty for the pain I have caused my W.

The door thing I take full responsibility for, it was a bad f**ked up situation that I did not handle well at all.

I have always had a severe lack of control when it comes to lashing out verbally.

Nope... that would be a very long post. I have NEVER had the intent or desire to hurt my wife physically. The "door incident" was not an instance of me trying to hurt her. I felt very bad about it afterwards, and still do. Unintended consequences are still consequences, of which I am responsible for.

I still say that I am not physically abusive. Numerous times during our marraige during arguements, W would push me, etc... and dare me to hit her. I never did, never have, never will.

I yell. I get nasty mean when I yell. It has to stop, I know this. I need to learn how to communicate like a mature adult. But I do not physically assault anyone.

my mean verbal habits have been pretty bad. They are enough to make me embarrassed about my behavior in general.[/quote]

OK, this thread has officially gone to [censored].

Is my behavior with the door something that I am proud of? Absolutely not. Although physical harm was not anywhere near my intent, it did occur. I understand that I cannot allow my emotions to escalate to the point that such things can occur. Why my emotions were escalated to such a level is irrevalent to the arguement about my behavior, but very revalent to the "reconciliation" efforts taking place, but I don't feel like going into that mess.

Point taken. I was wrong. My behavior was very innapropriate and cannot be tolerated.

I didn't want to argue with my W on here, but, what the heck, its not like we talk otherwise. I call bullsh!t on the crystal bowl. I was actually going in another room to be by myself and cry about a mean thing W had just said to me. As I sat down in the DARK room I bumped the coffee table hard with my leg, not out of anger but of frustration. The bowl fell off, bounced on the carpet once, then landed on the tile and broke into a couple pieces. As soon as it broke I knew I had stepped in it deep. W came out and tore in to me. I took it. After a while I picked up the bigger pieces and was going to throw them away when she came back in and said some more very mean things. I turned my hand over and let the pieces drop to the floor. I know, passive aggressive move. Her first story to the counselor about this was that I threw the picees across the room at her. No dice.
I cleaned up the mess and left, all the while with her verbally berating me.

One thing I think my W needs to be aware of is that some people on here have noticed that the only time she ever posts is to "set the record straight" about my posts. However, she has a history of doing this while being less than truthful herself.

I think I am done with this thread.

I am off to the store to buy some white tank top undershirts.........

(I know, that was a smart-as$ comment, I am working on that too).

TD

I don't know the extent of your verbal abuse or the nasty things you say...

When my H get upset or angry - his words become knives...early in recovery when we both were angry alot - my words were knives too.

I realized that when my H gets nasty with me - i don't have to be nasty back. I can walk away.

My husband calls it a case of saying things he wishes he never said or saying more than he ever meant to...his way of apologizing the next day.

I see a cycle - like my husband and I were in - one person getting hurt, hurting back, the other getting hurt, then hurting back until you are in a cycle of name calling, berating and hurt - with one person blaming the other and never realizing their contribution to the cycle.

I see abuse from both you and your wife...

So what are you going to do about - I think you are already on the right path - you are getting help, you are trying to learn to bite your tongue.

This is NOT an easy behavior to stop - and you will fail on some days - but you are taking the first steps...you have admitted that you do this and this is a problem.

I have curbed down so much of my knife tongue as I call it. Even on the bad night the other night, I said some facts that hurt my husband, but they weren't the way I used to - name calling, nagging, putting him down as I did it...My H has gotten to the point where he atleast recognizes he has done it after the fact and apologizes...(nasty few nights ago) - but atleast he is recognizing it. If you deny it or don't recognize it - you can't fix it.

Breaking Thread

I dont see your husband on here complaining about your affair, about how you hurt him, about what you do to him - I see him examining himself, complaining about some walls he is hitting with, saddened you arent willing to try the MB way...which he thinks may help and he is intitled to what he feels may help. I see a man who acknowledges his wrongs, what he has done wrong to you, and is trying to find a way to fix it - and this isn't easy - and it wont be fast.

What I see from YOU BT, though, is a woman who has NOT taken claim for HER contributions - INCLUDING her affair, and I still see you blaming your H, complaining about him - you are holding on to resentment of his treatment of you...and this will be the downfall of your recovery. You have a right to hurt, but if you expect your H to look in and change drastically - you better put that same expectation on yourself.

Start looking at what YOU need to change, and not what your H TD needs to change - I can see from his posts he KNOWS what he has to change...do you know what you need to change?

BREAKING THREAD

This is what you wrote in August this year

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[color:"green"] My H must love me an awful lot to be so kind and caring to me. I am a very lucky woman in that, and I pray that 5 years from now, our marriage will be better and stronger than it ever has been.

[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and I am wondering.... how long has there been NC with OM?

so not to thread jack - BT - I am starting a thread cause I have a very real question for you...

It’s generally true that the things WS or FWS complain the most about regarding the BS is in fact what they themselves do in spades.

Something even my FWW figured out a while ago.

With prayers,

pep when I posted my last post - i hadn't read your post.

Our great minds <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> are thinking alike...see my post to BT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dorry .... this whole thing has a very "deja vu" feeling .... KWIM?

One thing I'd like to point out to BreakingThread,

One thing that sticks in my mind, that I have a hard time forgetting, is when you came on T_D's threads back in July to talk about how insufficient his efforts were to win you back to the marriage. You pointed out several things you claimed he was not being honest about in his threads.

You didn't see fit to mention the fact that, even as you were contributing to T_D's threads and telling us how inadequate his efforts were, that you were having an affair.

Because of that, I tend to take what you say with a grain of salt.

I agree, however, that T_D has GOT to stop the angry outbursts. I have been telling him that for as long as I've known him. And I believe he understands that he has got to stop, and he is trying hard to do so.

Yep pepper...

CC - you are right TDs outbursts have to stop - but so do BT's! Both are very abusive...and I feel BT is playing her emotions as for sympathy and for escaping any blame or contributing she has to acknowledge.

Life is so much easier when we don't have to look at ourselves.

Hats off to TD for looking at HIMSELF and ADMITTING where he is weak and his problems - don't think it was easy for him to ADMIT he could be cruel and mean...but he did and he is looking to change - GOOD JOB.

Has BT looked at herelf and admited she is an ADULTRESS whether TD was mean or not. I see alot of abuse from BT, and I don't see TD having an A...has BT admited her words can be cruel too?

It takes two to make these changes grow and stick in a marriage...lets see both of you step up to the plate.

Dorry,

I have always thought that both T_D and BT have been LoveBusting each other like crazy. T_D has acknowledged this and is working on it (I have had no contact with BT until today, so I cannot comment about her) - but you are right, both have been indulging in LoveBusting for far too long.

TD,

You act like a kid that when things do not go as he wishes, throws in a tantrum. Cursing and saying that you have had with this thread is an example of this.

Having said this, I believe you are on the right track and are genuinely trying to make things better in your life. Things will not always go smoothly. Do not give in when things are not going the way you'd expect them to, which may be unwarranted at times in light of the situation. Your current situation does not encompass a linear path.

Just be aware that we are here for you. Even if your M is not saved, we'll be here to help you see this through.

We see your efforts and know that you are trying to do the right thing. You are not alone in this!

I only say it cause it was so much like my H and myself...it was how we even got into resentment before my A. He would get nasty - I would get hurt and get nasty back - he would then get hurt too and ignore me or hold on to resentment, I would hold back...and take his distance as him not loving me...leading to worse feelings, adn then ultimately I got involved in an affair.

Had I known how to NOT hurt back - perhaps all of this could have been prevented. H is now recognizing when he has been hurtful - he hasn't curbed the LB yet - but he also doesn't follow the MB program anymore...but he recognizes it and that is huge.

Our recovery was hindered as we STILL did this, and eventually it led to H having an A, as all we did was hurt eachother and he was sick of hurting me and being hurt - he met someone and shortly after left...in the hopes to start a new life...

The cycle has to be broken by someone, and I think if TD has the strength he can take that first step...

I worry though that BT is not far enough out of the fog though and will still subconciously set him up to fail...as it's what I used to do all the time...

I just feel so much familiarity in their story...it's why I am wondering so much if OM is still in the picture, or if contact was super recent...

Td - I am so proud of you for admiting and seeing where you have failed and where you can change. KEEP IT UP! The battle has only just begun.

Pep, Dorry and CC,

I agree with you. I hope BT sees that TD wants to work on himself and possibly the M. He is trying to make improvement; he is not trying to besmirch BT. Both parties must acknowledge their contributions to the state of their M. And unfortunately, it is this admission that I see lacking on BT's part.

If BT is filing for divorce to be open to marriage with a man who is willing to cheat with her when she has three young children at home, and to comfort her because her husband is so dangerous, etc., I predict she will look back at this time with great regret. And her children will suffer the consequences of her selfish willingness to cast aside her wedding vows.

It's one thing to separate and give the offending spouse an opportunity to address the problems in the marriage. It's quite another to file for divorce and go on to the next man.

If you have a chance, BT, dig into some of the past emails to Dr. Harley. One couple married after having an affair and ending their marriages; children are involved. I believe that abusive behavior was present in the prior marriage. Out of the pot into the fire...

Cherishing

I think it's worthwhile to take what they both say with a grain of salt. Both have displayed substantial dishonesty problems.

I'm still where I've always been since TD first posted -- I'm willing to talk to him, but I'm not prepared to try to help BT. BT, that's not about you at this point -- just that I think it's better I only talk to one or the other, and I can follow TD's thinking better at this point.

TD/DI, make the contract. It's real, it's serious, it shows you mean business. Then do whatever it takes to keep it.

That is the only escape from the behavioral problems. Fix the behavior first and absolutely, doing whatever it takes. Below and after that on the priority list is fixing the thoughts behind the behavior. Then after that comes fixing the emotions, the past traumas. That is the path to freedom. Dr. Harley outlined that to you to some extent. The key is to act well however you feel, not work on feeling well so that you'll act well if in the mood. Right now you're still doing it backwards -- depending on the meds to make you feel well so you feel like acting well.

Make the contract. Keep it.

OK, I am back..... UVA is right, I threw a tantrum.

In hindsight, I should have waited longer to post again instead of posting while my feelings were hurt.

I should not have attacked my W on here either. Predicatbly, things did not go well last night. I was luckily out of the house until all were in bed, so we didn't really argue. After posting, then thinking better of it, I called W to tell her that I posted in anger, and that I was sorry about it. After reading it, she was not very happy with me. I can't say I blame her. My rash emotional responses always come back to bite me.

MOS, your comments about meds are pretty much what W says. I do tend to rely on meds alot. Sleeping pills have been the norm more often than not for me since d-day, and I tend to look towards pharmaceuticals for assistance in dealing. Call it a professional pitfall I guess. But it is probably more related to never really learning how to deal with emotional things on my own, and looking for someone or something else to do it for me. Just another symptom of my core problem.

dorry, I can't really accept the "proud of you" stuff. I have known my behavior sucks for a while now but haven't been able to do anything about it when push comes to shove. Now I have been on the mood stabilizer for about 2 weeks now, and even though I do feel much more calm and less angry about everything in general, I have avoided all arguements with W and haven't really been in a "push comes to shove" situation.

Albeit, in the past, her current attitude towards me would have brought me in to a push/shove situation because I would have become arguemetnative, but now I don't feel like arguing and let it go.

One thing that bothers me about W and MC, and I don't like "piling on" or criticizing my W on here.... but the underlying message I get, and have gotten since MC started after d-day is that "her A was out of character for her. it is over now, she is back in character, so she has nothing to address. however, my behavior has been long-term and has been "in-character" for me so it needs to be the sole focus of what we address in MC".

And that is pretty much what we did for the majority of MC post d-day, address my past porn use and selfish, immature, self-centered behavior. Yes it is / was all true and needs to be dealt with. BUT, to expect that to be the sole focus, to expect me to go to MC week after week and listen to 55 minutes of how bad of a H I have been, then spend maybe 5 minutes on W's A, and expect me to react positively, well obviously I didn't. I couldn't cope with my W's A. I knew that I wanted to stay with her, but couldn't emotionally accept staying with her while also accepting what she did. And MC didn't seem able to find the right method to help me deal with it.

Honestly, the current counselor I see now for IC basically told me I have to just "get over it, let it go". I know this, but easier said than done!

It wasn't until I started the mood stabilizer that I have felt emotionally able to accept the A and staying with W in the same reality. In fact, I don't think about the A much now.

thanks all for the comments, even the ones I don't like.

Ok, so what are you going to do about it?


Well that's lovely and all, but when you post (or speak to your wife) this kind of diagnostic blather and don't combine it with any attempt to address the problem, it sounds like yet another cop-out.

Go back to the chain I posted before: figuring out *why* is waaaaaay down there on the priority list. All that matters right now is stopping the behavior. So long as the bad behavior is still going on, nobody affected really gives a rat's heinie why you're doing it.

One more time: fix behavior -- the rest can wait. Write the contract. Sign it. Keep it.

Oh and your IC is right -- drop the "but she did bad stuff too" garbage for the time being -- it's getting in your way. Yes, it's true, but it's still getting in your way and you're still using it to saboutage your own progress. So drop it.

You fix your own behavior because your behavior is your responsibility. That's it. It does not matter one bit what anyone else does when it comes to your choice on this. You fix yours no matter what.

Backwards: "I'll act badly when I feel badly, so I'll look for ways to not feel bad and call that progress."

Backwards: "I did a lot of bad stuff and I have to fix it but she did too and I'm not happy about fixing my bad stuff unless I see how I feel about her bad stuff addressed."

Path to Freedom: "I will behave well no matter what I feel."

ContractContractContract. I've noticed you keep avoiding addressing this one.

Your last post was pretty good. I understand the "backwards" concept you keep driving home.

As for as the contract, I would be open to it. However, we are not in MC right now. And I agree with my counselor that it is best for us not to talk about our relationship outside of a MC setting for the time being.....

posted by T_D
but the underlying message I get, and have gotten since MC started after d-day is that "her A was out of character for her. it is over now, she is back in character, so she has nothing to address. however, my behavior has been long-term and has been "in-character" for me so it needs to be the sole focus of what we address in MC".

Although your threads should be about YOU and what YOU are doing to learn self improvement and practice marriage building skills, I would caution you not to allow your MC to brush the A under the carpet. Your M will not magically recover from the A if you learn anger management skills. Your lack of such skills was not the cause of the A.

posted by mos
You fix your own behavior because your behavior is your responsibility. That's it. It does not matter one bit what anyone else does when it comes to your choice on this. You fix yours no matter what.

These words are well suited to BT also. The A was her choice resulting from her behaviors and lack of marital skills.

T_D

I hope you are seeing an anger management professional (not a MC) to better understand your anger and learn the appropriate management skills and not simply relying on the meds to make you 'feel' less like becoming angry. It's okay to get angry. The trick is to constructively manage that anger.

Don't allow the entire focus of your marital recovery however, to become anger management. Simply because your W may have ended her A does not mean that she is any more 'fixed' than you are.

I am sure I read somewhere that even Dr. Harley would divorce rather than go thru the pain of trying to rebuild a marriage after infidelity. It is hard work and you do have a right to be angry but you do not have the right to be abusive.

TD this board is a good board but I would recommend you not post on here if you want to save your marriage. Spend the money and get professional help.

You do have anger problems but posting this where your wife can come in and view and correct you IMHO is not a good idea. Although all of us people here are well meaning we are not professionals. We do not even know you and your wife.

One last thing. I consider a wife that is married to a man that goes out and screws other men to be abusive. Your wife is abusive to you also and if she does not see it then let her go. I think you will then have less anger.

She will use your anger as a reason for her affiar. That is like a spouse punching their spouse in the face and claiming it was the other spouses fault because they made them mad. It is only an excuse.

If your wife is not held accountable for this then you are heading down the road to heartache. Good luck my friend and I hope you both can turn things around.

Ok, so what are you going to do differently? What is your plan?

You're good at coming up with reasons not to do certain things, but what ARE you going to do?

Taking meds and waiting for your current therapy obviously isn't adequate -- you still blew your stack. So now what?

MOS,

Actually, I haven't blown my stack for 3-4 weeks, early in the seperation. And that was over the phone. W called someone to get our gararge door fixed. And of all the people she choose to call, she called a very good friend of OM. This guy goes to our church and is supposed to be "high up" in it. This past summer, as OM and I were coaching our boys baseball team TOGETHER (during the A), this other guy had a son on the team. He began making seriously innapropriate comments to W in a sexual way during the games. I was going to talk to him but W told me not to. Now she thinks he didn't know about A. She gets mad when I say he was probably trying to "get in line". But let's be realistic here...

Then, when the guy was at our house fixing the garage door, and I am gone due to the seperation, he asks W about my whereabouts, and she tells him I am gone because we are seperated.

So now, not only does this guy know that W is at home alone and is seperated from her husband, what are the odds that he told OM?

Yes, that PISSED me off. That was a VERY stupid thing for her to do if she had / has any desire to save the marriage.

So we argued over the phone.

I don't know.... when I sit back and think about all of those types of incidents that have happened since d-day, it kind of makes me wonder what I am doing.....

Damage,

I haven't read your whole story. I only remember one time last year lurking here when you found out your wife was in an affair and your post scared me.

That said, I see that you actually do want to change.

I have a problem with anger as well. I've always felt out of control when I feel threatened. Unlike my husband, I don't so much lash out as implode. Either way, it ain't good.

Through all our struggles, we've been to a number of counsellors/coaches. I'm currently involved in an emotion regulation program that seems to really get it. Putting aside all that I have done, all that my husband has done, I've been trying to understand how I feel about me. It's very hard to face the fact that no matter what anyone has done to me, how I have reacted/acted has been totally my choice.

Anyway, I feel for you. It's hard to change how one has been for years. If you get a chance, check out this website: www.compassionpower.com. Dr. Stosny specializes in working with anger. He calls it emotional regulation though, not anger management. He is a childhood survivor of physical abuse, so he certainly understands the knee jerk reactions we can cultivate to stress factors in our lives.

I know this is a struggle for you. I wish you all the best.

Earth to DI -- you threw a tantrum right on this thread not even two days ago.

So since what you've been doing is inadequate, what are you going to change?

So far you're "all hawk and no spit" as they say in Texas -- a lot of talk and precious little action. Time to get the lead out.

That was far from "blowing my stack". I got aggrevated by the continued insistence that I am a wife beater and gave a sarcastic smart as$ reply.

If that is your definition of "blowing my stack" then I will never make you happy.

As far as doing something..... I work on myself. I only go to IC once a week. By myself, I check myself, my behavior, trying to change my habits and ultimately my behavior.

Last night I was with a friend watching a basketball game at a bar. I started my old way of having fun by criticizing other people, being obnoxius and sarcastic, not to the other people, but with my friend. When I started, I actually stopped mid-sentence and told my friend I shouldn't be doing that. That I need to stop having a laugh at others expense.

At home I try to actually listen to my kids. Hear what they say. Validate their feelings. I still have a ways to go with them. They are conditioned from both me and my W to ignore us until we yell.
My kids have noticed a change. Both boys have told me they notice my change of less yelling and critical behavior to one of more carefree joking around, having fun, laughing.

I continue to hug my W goodnight every night, before we go off to our seperate beds, and I hug her and say goodbye in the morning when I leave for work.

When at work, i have been making a conscious effort to go out and interact with others, be cheerful to them, be self depreciating about myself, try to make the effort to be the one initiating interaction with others instead of waiting for others to make the effort to interact with me.

I have been trying to change my general outlook to one of empathy for others, to be less critical, to not ignore the plank in my eye while pointing out the speck in others eyes.

It's a start. Gotta start somewhere.

And if my W was here, she would have to say that regardless of her attitude towards me, I have been nothing less than pleasant towards her for the past 2 weeks.

May I suggest that you use your imagination and pretend there is a camera on you at all times ... and behave in a way that you would not mind the entire country viewing on the evening news.

If you find yourself experiencing tightness in your throat muscles, clenching fists or breathing harder than usual ... take a break ... go for a short walk, do jumping jacks ... pull yourself out of that early anxious feeling that probably has been what triggered explosive anger in the past.

Anger is usually a response to an earlier emotion that you could not face ... like fear of abandonment, or embarrasment for feeling cheated, .... stuff like that. The trick is to catch yourself trying to escape the primary emotion, and take a look at the primary emotion ... facing things tends to take the anxiety out of the situation.

It is very unrealistic for someone to tell you not to experience anger ... you're human. Can you think of an alternative ACTIVITY to engage in whenever you feel anger rising?

Ok, so according to you, you're planning on never stopping this kind of behavior. In that case BT should get out fast because you have not intention of becoming fit to be married. Even the above is more of your same old same old -- no one actually called you a "wife beater". I for one said you're physically abusive because you are by any useful definition.

no ... I believe he said ... gotta start somewhere.

are you trying to get him angry?

seems that way to me.... just wondering....

He said, "If that is your definition of "blowing my stack" then I will never make you happy." -- sounds like planning on never changing that behavior to me.


Nope, just pushing back when he waffles. Anger or not is his choice. What books I've read written by those who work with people who use the same attitudes and behaviors DI has been displaying talk quite a bit about how sympathy and praise for changing tiny bits of monumental problems tend to make such people worse, not better -- it's enabling for such people, not supportive. What's supportive is pushback against their self-serving rationalizations, so that's what I'm providing.

Geez... His "tantrum" was merely using some mild sarcasm, I thought. Compared to T_D's postings right after his d-day, I thought this was a major improvement.

And, yes, T_D never said he had "no intention of changing" - he just outlined all the steps he is taking to change.

He has reason to be angry, and it is unrealistic to expect him to become the Buddha overnight - or at all.

And, although no-one actually used the term "wife-beater", I got the distinct impression earlier that he was being painted that way, especially over the vase incident which, as we have seen, did not quite occur the way BT initially described it.

Really? Anger is an emotion, and I thought the choice he has is how he deals with it, not whether he feels it.

Even Christ got angry.


I'd actually be interested to see one of these books. Do you have any titles or authors handy? I am serious, here, because I would like to know more about this topic.

Sure, the ones most widely known on this forum are "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft, and to a lesser extent "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans, though she does more on identifying the behavior than on working with behavior recovery. There's some relevant material in the Boundaries books, and even in Love Busters though for some reason that part of Love Busters doesn't seem to register with a lot of the people who've read it. For others I'd have to check. A good self-help set of exercises can be found in "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David Burns.

As for anger being a choice, in many cases it is. Much of the time it's our thinking, which we control, that creates our anger. If DI considers this thread as a source of information that might help him and uses it as such, he has no reason to get angry no matter what anyone posts -- either a post has info he can use or ask for help on using, or not. If he loads expectations onto the thread about what he decides it's supposed to contain, then sooner or later he's bound to get angry when the content differs from what he wants. What thinking to use is what determines whether the thread makes him angry, and it's completely his choice.

CC,

The following has helped me control my AOs....

I prefer to think of ANGER, not as an emotion, but as an ACTION. The emotion may be sadness, disappointment, disillusionment, surprise, hurt, etc....what I do with that emotion is the ACTION.

As a result I can...
...A) ACT ANGRY run around hit doors and yell (I'm talking about myself here TD/DI); or
...B)I can listen to my emotion and have an ASSERTIVE (but not aggressive) conversation helping my wife understand what I am feeling and making a request so that I don't get hurt/surprised etc.
...C) I can swallow and repress that emotion and build up resentment that I'm 'being good' while she abuses me (not recommended BTW).
...D) I can channel the feelings into another activity like exercise, poetry, journaling, writing a short story, etc.

But, the point is you may not choose your initial emotion (sad, hurt, disappointed, etc) but you can CHOOSE to BE or NOT-BE ANGRY.

Regards

Well, I went to IC last night. Things ahve gone much better with him the last 2-3 weeks, since he made his diagnosis and we have settled on a treatment plan.
However, just as Dr Harley said, IC's are not in the business of saving marriages. My IC told me that. He said his job with me is to work on me. If working on my issues have a beneficial effect on saving my marriage, great, but that is not his focus. I asked him, but can't you and my old MC, who I guess is now wife's IC, talk between yourselves with the intent to help save my marriage? He said no. He is not a MC.

So, I am now going to IC with no focus at all on saving my marriage. W has gone to our MC once for IC in the past 6 weeks (of our seperation), for I guess, IC. W will not resume MC. W will not respond to requests from Dr Harley to accept his assistance in getting us back started on the MB program. W is seeming to be going further downhill emotionally and physically (continuing to lose weight when already underweight). W refuses to let me try to give her some emotional support and comfort.

I just don't know what to do or where to go or what to think.
I am still dedicated to continuing IC for my issues. But I am frustrated at what do do about my marriage, and am equally frustrated if not more so about not being able to help my wife during her obvious emotionally and physcially weakening state.

I know I can't force W to resume MC, or force her to accept a phone call from Dr Harley, or force her to start IC to help her with her issues, or force her to let me try to give her comfort or support. But it as so frustrating......

Something that might assist you in your approach to recovery:

If a man has been powering over his wife for years with angry outbursts, displays of physical violence at objects or walls or doors, professes to be in recovery once the relationship's balance of power has shifted, the wife has to see certain things:

1. Recovery is not with the intent of salvaging the relationship - the wife knows that if she buys into this, as soon as the balance of power shifts to equal footing, she will lose her equality of power in the relationship. And the old status quo of tolerating angry outbursts and violence will be expected.

2. Recovery must include an absolute turning from controlling behaviors - anything to lead the wife to marriage counseling is a signal that the change is only temporary at this point in your recovery process.

3. Recovery includes finding God in your life - not the phony display of religious activities and devotion, but a quiet, heartfelt turning of one's life over to HIS care, and allowing Him (AND TRUSTING HIM) to soften your wife's heart ONLY when your heart has truly changed in HIS sight.

4. Recovery would look to me like my husband absolutely cares for my welfare and needs, and places no expectations or demands. He would consider that he had already lost the marriage and that he just wants to spend the rest of his life if necessary making amends and being a good, kind, compassionate loving man.

D, Inc. - please be mindful that God wants your marriage to succeed, but You must get out of His way. And Trust Him. Turn your life and the molding of your character over to Him. He already has your wife in His hands, but you don't seem to recognize that. A mighty change of heart looks entirely different than a pity party because you're in counseling just for yourself and abandoning the hope and focus on marital recovery.

I understand and agree with all of that. That is my intent.

However, one cannot escape the facts of what W did and the effects they have had, and continue to have on me. It is unreasonable to expect me to be able to continue in a realationship with W without some sort of addressing of that. And regardless of whether we are actively attempting reconciliation or are seperated we are still in a "relationship".

D-Inc, it IS reasonable for you to continue your relationship with W WITHOUT addressing what she has done wrong. You both have addessed it and there has been enough. She knows what she did, and she knows it hurt you. She is not stupid. She was just selfish.
In Harley's book SAA, he states that the BS may want to make the WS feel really guilty about the A. However, Harley says something like, "Have you ever tried set someone straight?" Don't do it. She doesn't need to hear it anymore.

She needs forgiveness now. That means practically forgetting about things she has done to hurt you. Don't bring them up ANYMORE! If you tell her, "I forgive you, but you need to feel bad about what you did." -that is NOT forgiveness.

You even stated yourself, "What I have come to understand is, I can be mad at her all the time or I can try to save my marriage, but I cannot do both. Also, we can both wallow in that pain, which will no doubt result in a divorce, or we can both move forward together as if we have never been hurt. If we do the latter, our marriage stands a chance."

She has stated, "I know my having the affair hurt my H, devestated him, and I expected anger, but I do not deserve the things that have happened."

Listen, I would almost bet that she is still in love with OM. Why? Well, first she still sees him in the neighborhood. Also, IMHO, it is a sign if she is still losing weight. However in reality, even if there is NC, her love bank is still full from the OM, and your's is still empty. Regardless of how wrong it may have been, she remembers how nice it was to have OM who was so kind to her, and maybe even loved her for all her imperfections. He met her EN and did not create love busters. You need to do that even better than he did or you can forget it. And you CAN do it. As difficult as it is to accept, she needs someone to love and accept her, even if she cheated. If fact needs even more that acceptance. She needs admiration. Your finacial support and family commitment are great, and that is probably the only reason she is still around. But she needs more or she will eventually leave. Give her a reason to fall in love with again. She remembers the OM as a source of happiness. YOU be that source.

And I have made efforts to not bring her actions up. I hardly ever do. However, conversely, I still get my past actions thrown up in my face routinely. I told her I was ready to start over, starting again as if she hadn't hurt me, and I try to do that. BUT, she needs to return that action for it to be successful in saving our marriage. And she is either unwilling or unable to do so. And she is unwilling to go to IC or MC to do anything about it.

It is difficult for me to put her actions in the past but continue to have mine thrown in my face without getting resentful. And that is where I am starting to get, VERY RESENTFUL.



I am not worried about making her feel guilty. I just need to feel WANTED. Dealing with what she did is very, very hard. Dealing with it while she pretty much acts like she could care less about me is close to impossible. I cannot tolerate the daily resentment, disdain, and lack of caring and keep a smile on my face.



And refuses to consider moving. She wanted to,and even suggested it right after d-day, but now won't even talk about it. I have made it clear to her that from my perspective we are moving, either together or seperately. That may be a LB in your eyes, but it is the truth in my eyes. I CANNOT live here any longer. Especially when baseball season starts for the boys. They WILL NOT be in the league here in town, PERIOD. I do not deserve to have to endure all of those triggers regardless of whether I am still mariied or am divorced.



Give me the scenerio where I only see my W on dates or mid-day sex rendevous, where household finances, kids, etc are not an issue, and I bet we can have a stress free relationship as well.

As far as him loving her, I am sure that she still probably believes that he did. I can understand how it can be hurtful for her to view it as being used. However, in reality, his W, who did not suspect an A either, twice set up appointments with a lawyer to D him during the affair and both times he refused to show up for the appts and begged her not to D him. Throughout the A, he was still having SF with his W. So I guess in a twisted screwed up way, my W should see that as him cheating on her.



It is illogical to expect to be able to create that type of atmosphere when all of the stress of having a family, financial issues, etc are present. And now add to the mix her A.

When they were together it was all about them. They didn't have to worry about her kids, her household issues, his kids, his household issues. It was all about having fun with no committments involved. That is not the reality of real life, married life.



Her domestic support is great and is probably the only reason I am still around. BUT I NEED MORE OR I WILL EVENTUALLY LEAVE. I need a reason to fall in love with her again.

Look, I am in a pissed off mood this morning. I was really sick last night. Every bone in my body aches right now. My W continues to spend money for Christmas even though I have consistently told her the well is dry and I am very worried about how we are going to cover our expenditures. I mentioned it to her again this morning and she said "I don't belive you". So basically, she isn't going to worry about the finances, I am expected to figure out a way to make it happen. That makes me feel like a figgin doormat.
What am I getting out of this relationship? For the last 6 months I have gotten nothing but heartache, pain, and lonliness. At what point do I say that enough is enough?

I am not a GQ guy, but I am not ugly either. I have a great career, make great money that is more than enough when W and I are cooperating. Since starting IC and a mood stabilizer I have lost the panicky feelings I would get when thinking about losing W. In general, I am not angry any more. I am more positive about my life in general, with exception to my marriage, then I can ever remember being in my entire adult life.

But I am tired. I am so friggin tired... and lonely. And it is not like the past 6 months have been generally lonely and tiresome. The have been BRUTALLY lonely and tiresome.

I look back on 2005 and it is just a blank spot, a lost year in my life. I have lost an entire year. It is all a blur of pain, despair, and loneliness.

I will not allow 2006 to be like that.

Just wanted to say that I fell your pain and that you'll be in my prayers.

Her domestic support is great and is probably the only reason I am still around

You can get a maid for that you know. For some reason that comment really ticked me.

My W continues to spend money for Christmas even though I have consistently told her the well is dry and I am very worried about how we are going to cover our expenditures. I mentioned it to her again this morning and she said "I don't belive you". So basically, she isn't going to worry about the finances, I am expected to figure out a way to make it happen. That makes me feel like a figgin doormat.

She must not believe you because you said something else here...

I have a great career, make great money that is more than enough when W and I are cooperating.

What is meant by "cooperating"? Do you decide where the money is spent...is that what you mean by cooperating?

Is this about control with some grand power struggle going on there?

committed

It's not much different from him feeling like she is just staying with him for his money.

Is that why he is telling her that the money well has run dry? He is no longer offering FS? I guess she could withdraw her Domestic Support and you have to wonder where that would leave them.

committed

Exactly, I could get a maid for that. Exactly my point.
What I am saying is that I am not exactly having a party here, living it up while she suffers. I am suffering. We are both suffering alone. The only difference is that I am reaching out to her, and she refuses. No one is reaching out to me.

At this point, she is so emotionally withdrawn from me that I get very little other than the domestic support of the kids and the house.

I have tried. I admit that for 2 months after d-day she did make some efforts. I wanted them and even more. But I was also just unable to have wanting to stay married to her and knowing what she did to be able to co-exist in my mind at the same time. I could not control my emotions and often they came out in ways that were hurtful to her, even though all along I wanted to save my marriage.

Now I have my emotions under control. She thinks it is a "take a pill to blunt your emotions and say you are doing something" deal. But that is not it. My emotions are not blunted. I can still feel high emotions for sadness and happiness. But, the mood stabilizer has seemed to even out my emotions so that my anger is not so overwhelming. She does not understand that it is a neurotraansmitter thing. I have felt "angry" in general since becoming a teenager. To me that says that my neurotransmitters were not in "normal" conentrations or functionality in a physiological sense. So the mood stabilizer has only returned me to "normal" to allow me to function "normally".

Regardless, she is so withdrawn from me that either she is back in contact with OM, or she has exited the M for other reasons and it is over.

It doesn't really matter in the end which reason it is, the results are the same. And I am starting to accept that.



We have the same amount of money coming in as always, almost. First, in the past, pre-A, if I said we were overspending our budget she would work with me. The ONLY thing about our budget that I am steadfast in enforcing is investing between 10-15%. PERIOD. I worked 9yrs in the Army and we got out with $10K saved up. We are behind.

Other than that 10-15% I do not "control" any of it. Any more I am lucky if she gives me her reciepts for me to add up how much we have spent. And that usually takes me asking her and nagging her for several days just to get her reciepts to add up.



We have as much as we always did, it's just that now, we do not communicate, and evedentily she thinks whatever we spend I will find a way to cover.

As far as the "almost" I added above, it is due to the $8k we dropped on tuition for our boys to go to a nearby private school instead of going back to their public school. D-day was 2 weeks before the start of school. We, very much in the heat of the moment when she was very strongly promising to do "everything she could" to make it up to me and save the marrige, decided to enroll them there to save them the probable gossip and hassles that were sure to happen in the public school in this VERY small town. The private school is in another town. Also, we reasoned that since we were going to move due to the A, having them in this provate school would not make them have to transfer schools in the middle of the school year.

Weel, $8K at the drop of the hat is not something we were prepared for. So we are also working to pay back the $$ we borrowed for that as well as then needing to prepare to pay next years $8K.
I am very glad that we did enroll them there. And I am not trying to hang that over her head. But it is an additional expense that has to be accounted for.

Also, since the May fight, we spent several hundred dollars for MC while she was starting and then having her A. Then several hundred more since d-day, as well as $1K for the MB seminar.

I never, ever thought we would truly D. Even on D-day I was hoping that she would come back, that she would be willing to do what it would take for us to stay together. This summer, during her A, even though nothing was working for me (and I couldn't understand why... go figure), I still couldn't comprehend that we would actually D.

Now, I see it as a very real possibility. Actually, right now, I would say Vegas odds would be riding on a D.

I say that because she is emotionally withdrawn and I am losing the strength to continue fighting to stay emotionaly engaged in the M. I will always care for her. That will never change. But right now I feel the beginnings of resenting the he11 out of her. And I know that in the current enviroment, if things don't change, that will only get worse.

I decided to go back to my old name, cause it fits again...

OK, I had a bad weekend. I felt sick the whole time and felt very frustrated and in a bad mood.
I felt, and still feel, at the end of my rope as far as recieving resentment or just being ignored by W. We had a b-day party for our 3yr girl yesterday. Lots of family there. The ONLY words W spoke to me were "hold the pinata" and "do you want a piece of cake?".


All I keep hearing from W is "I am going to file", then she gets mad at me when I ask her when she is going to file.

I hear "You won't be able to forgive me for what I did", how does she know what I can or can't do?

I hear "If you stay with me, in a year you will hate yourself for doing it"

I am in a bad mood this morning, carrying over from the weekend, but I am tired of all this.

As I said in a previous post, either she is still in contact with OM, or she has just exited the marriage. It doesn't really matter which it is because the end result is the same.

T_D - I am so sorry to hear how things have gotten. I am still praying for you and BreakingThread.

I saw this at a friend's house recently:

If you find yourself going through heII ... don't stop

And explain to us why you keep asking? Are you trying to egg her on?

I believe I have mentioned this before but I'll say it again. As an ER nurse we are taught ways of dealing with agitated people. For example, if a person is holding a gun, one should not say, "don't shoot" - that just might remind them about what they can do!

It seems that your W may also need professional help to help her resolve her resentment towards you. Married or not, both of you will continue having contact with one another because of your children and if she allows her resentment to fester and grow, it could potentially be turned towards them via verbal/emotional abuse. Maybe you can respectfully convey this to her so that hopefully she will start working on her issues.

TMCM

Thanks all. I know I screwed up alot. But I still believe that I have consistently tried to do the right thing. Unfortunately, emotions and stupidity frequently interfered.

W is filing today.

I think me posting here has had a negative effect on trying to save the marriage. A lot of times I posted here about issues I was / am trying to work through. Trying to work through issues is never easy, nice, or pretty. I probably shouldn't have done that on an open forum where W could read my comments and interpret them on her own.

I am going to sign off of the board for the time being. IF I come back, I still hope that it is not as a divorcee.

Thanks to all who tried to help me and my marriage. And please believe me when I say that I DID try as best as I could, as best as my emotions and abilities allowed me to.
A friend on here told me "not to leave anything on the table". And if my M is over, I can say that I haven't. I continue to tell my W not to file, that I still want to have a better M, that I believe if we both want it that we can have it. And I continue to go to IC to work on my own issues. And yes, I pray. And that is not meant to sound pious.

I am pretty down right now, because I still want my M, my family... I still, and always have, loved my W.

Wow, life just sucks so bad right now...

T_D,

I'm so sorry for your latest development but remember that each of us is responsible for his/her choices and she is responsible for her choice of filing for divorce and ending the marriage.

I can't shake the feeling that your W may once again restarted her affair and has tried pushing your buttons as a way to justify ending the marriage. Hopefully I'm dead wrong about this, for everybody's sake.

TMCM

Wow, a lot happened in the last several days. I am sorry your wife is filing for divorce, and for that pain that is causing you.


It's pretty painful, isn't it, to realize that trying really hard and trying to do the right thing just plain aren't enough? The thing is, those are only good enough when we're kids. Being an adult means we're responsible for the outcomes of our actions, no matter what.


That is a serious problem, given your temper. You AO and DJ a lot, and both of you lie to an extent that is severely shocking to healthy people.


We all hope so too. Perhaps you can get your IC to work with you on expressing yourself in a respectful manner, so that if you do come back you can post in a way that won't be harmful for your wife to read.


You showed some real guts in dealing with the infamous MOS cluebat. :P You've got some ugly behavioral problems, but from where I'm sitting it really looks like you have the strength of character to overcome them.


But you know me well enough by now to know I'm not letting that one slide. No, you didn't do the best you could. You cut corners and slacked off in a thousand different little ways, and they all added up. Now you're finding that one big emotional "try" can't fix that kind of damage. It's a painful realization, but it's not true to say you did the best you could -- you didn't.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying you should take infinite punishment or anything like that. Just be honest. "I've done as much as I'm willing to," might be a very honest statement here.


Now more than ever you need to keep up on IC -- this kind of whammy is going to mess with your neurotransmitters again. Healthy food, lots of water, and lots of exercise can counteract some of that, so take good care of yourself. Good luck and don't be afraid to take time to just let all this stuff process. Be good to yourself.