We have supposedly been in recvery for about 4 years and I am concerned that it has not moved along. That is another story.

WH traded cars with me this morning because mine is bigger and he needed to haul some things. While I was on my way home (9 yr old son with me) I reached into the side pocket of the door to get out my son's wallet that I saw sitting there.

I pulled out a blister pack of 'STAMINA Rx Maximum Sexual Stimulant' dietarty supplements!!! OMG!!! The pack had originally contained two pills and they were both gone. I am shaking.

SF has been an issue between WH and I for awhile. Probably irrational, but since he has refused to sleep in the same room/bed with me, I actually put him off for SF for awile. However, as of last week, I stopped that and we have been having SF. But, what's up with the pills?!?!

He will be home soon....... what do I do? I am shaking so hard. Is he still having an A? If he is, I want him OUT!!! I have endured so much after the last A and over the past 4 years - if he is still carrying on an A, I am through.

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!

Take a deep breath!! Calm down. What if he got the pills to improve SF WITH YOU. You said you just rekindled that part of your relationship last week. Maybe he was worried about his performance.

How has recovery going otherwise? Are you in MC? Are you fullfilling eachother's other needs?

I'd lay it in the middle of the kitchen table and let him tell me about it.

Listen,,,LISTEN carefully to his explaination. You'll be suprised what you learn when you DON'T talk and JUST LISTEN!!!

It was not really a rekindling....... just that I stopped saying no.

The pills were in his car. He creeps into my bedroom in the morning when he wants SF, so why would the pills be in his car?

He supposedly ended the A about 3.5 years ago, but they still work at the same place.

Also, he goes to play poker every single Friday night with a group of people that I do not even know their names, have never heard a word from (no message on answering machine - nothing) and I have no idea where he goes. He leaves at 6pm and comes home at 1-2 am. Every Friday night. I hate it, but I am used to it.

On my other thread, I went through so much of what our relationship is like - looking for a way to improve it. This morning, when I read some of the recent responses, there were a few suggestions that maybe his A did not end or that he was having another.

That is why finding these pills is freaking me out.

ditto Nerly

but adding

keep your body language NEUTRAL while he talks

don't bring this up when you put the pills on the table

but

place a GPS in his car Friday nights

Recovery has been less than desirable. I won't go into all of it now, but after the last A, I tried everything and went to counseling for two years by myself. He would not go. All that matters to him is our kids. I am not important to him and I have learned to tolerate it - although I am extremely unhappy.

I am freaked out.

The directions say "take 1-2 tablets prior to sexual activity." I double that he would go out to his car in his boxer shorts at 5:30 am in the morning to get the pills if he were going to use them with me.

Sending hugs! My A radar is way up just by the little bit you wrote. I'd probably just lay the pills on the table and if I could, muster up my steeliest calm, and would say, "WTF's going on? And don't give me any bullsh** or I'm outta here yesterday!" Probably not very good advice, but I feel for you. CV

GPS - help me with that. What will that do and how do I use it?

Also, I did not discover his A last time. He told me about it after a year. So, obviously I am not good at figuring it out on my own.

***ditto Pep on the GPs***



This wouldn't be acceptable to me.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

get the gps.

and do NOT be confrontational. ask him what do these mean to you?

hey guys...what are signs of lying? any nonverbal cues? (besides seeing the WS lips move)?

be pleasant. Know you're churning inside.

But if recovery is this rocky...then I think it needs more work...make it so!

I know how it will go if I ask him about it. HUGE Blowup. He will turn it around on me and say that I was wrong for snooping (even though I wasn't). He will get angry, verbal (lost of cursing), and will storm out. He will try to tell me that they are vitamins that he needs to keep his energy up for who knows what. Anything but what it is intended for.

Then he'll tell me that he doesn't trust me........ I've been here before. I am sick to my stomach.

I like the GPS idea. You need to start snooping again.
I am surprised that you would have been okay with the every Friday night game. I would think with his history you would have wanted some accountability and would want to know exactly where he is.

How is the recreational companionship with you going?

Have you both read about Harley's Point of Joint Agreement?
How about this?


Four Rules for a Successful Marriage

It sounds like neither of you did enough to affair proof your marriage after his last A.

I just made a copy of the package to keep - I know that when he sees the package he will take it. Then I won't have any evidence in the event that I need it down the road.

Is that OK?

Ok signs of lying - they will not look you in the eye -look to the left alot. Also when someone lies they try to convince you if the are telling the truth they tell you their story like a story not in bits and pieces.

You are all so right. I did everything possible that I could do on my own, but WH just kept telling me to wait and ould not participate in recovery. My couselor finally 'terminated' my sessions about 1.5 years ago because he felt like I had come a long way and that there was not much else he could do for me alone. He did not seem to think that there was an A going on and when I would talk to him about being bothered by the Friday night poekr game, he did not seem alarmed by it. So, that is why I got used to it. I KNOW it is not right, but I had a professional working with me who was not alarmed by it, so I thought I needed to be OK with it.

I think ,ine has been lying and confrontation is coming real soon. I have found out some other t6hings. I was thinking of saying to WH -don't you think someone might have seen you 2.???????? See what he says. Trap him

I am SO freaked out. Questioning my judgement. He has always been able to convince me that he has a reasonable explanation. I can always find a way in my mind to make what he tells me work, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Am I over-reacting here? I know I have done it before, so please - if this is not something to be upset about - set me straight. I don't want to blow up what marriage I do have over something I shouldn't.

GPS is a tracking system that you can put in his car. It will tell you exactly where he has been.

They are available at most any electronics store,,such as Radio Shack, Best Buy, etc. Pick a store to purchase one where they have sales help avaiable to explain the system, installation and all features.

Keep a journal this is a must for your sanity. You can go back and say no WH I wrote down what took place and what you said. I had to use mine and he was angry because I had proof.

There are some things my therapist has said to me I think could apply to you:
1. You don't want to be in a marriage where part of your job is to keep him from having an affair.
2. Sophia and the abuse are symptoms. What is the real problem?
3. Find out what path he is on. Don't try to get him on the right path. Then decide what you are going to do.

IF he is having an affair, that is a symptom. The symptom of his being willing to neglect you and live an independent life.

Sure, stopping an affair would seem like progress. It did to me. BUT what it?

He is neglecting you. He is out playing poker with people you don't know, he is sleeping in a separate room, he is telling you he wants to stay together for the kids sake.

HOW ABOUT STANDING UP AND LETTING HIM KNOW THAT YOU WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH HIM? Some people spend their lives trying to catch a cheater. How degrading.

Cherished

Your bedroom? You don't sleep together?

Susan

Susan -
No he will not sleep in our bedroom anymore. It started during the A, and he has never come back. He knows it is a very big issue with me, but he doesn't care. He sleeps in the same bedroom with ou youngest son. For four years. YS is only 5 years old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Cherished - I know that you have read some of my history on my earlier thread (Thanks!). I agree 100% with what you outlined here. I know that I am 1/2 of the problems in our relationship and I have tried so, so hard to fix it. WH has never met me on that road. Could it be because he is still involved with OW? Does any of the other stuff - plus this new info - give you a thought about what is going on?

I just took a shower - I think better in the shower. I am thinking of asking him about the pills and themn telling him that we both need to get everything on the table. I hope he will tell me what is going on with him. I want to tell him that there are two choices here. Either go to a MC or go to a divorce lawyer. His answer will be that I should just do what I want but that he will not go to a MC. I can't do MC alone (already tired that!) so that leaves me with no choice but a lawyer.

Am I moving too soon saying that?

I would tell him just how serious you are. That he needs to explain to you what is his reasons for the pills. Now eresearch those pills at www.ask.com. She what the revues and health warnings are.

Willing, I don't think his affair has ended, or he has started a new one. His Friday nights have red flags all over it. You are right, there would have been a phone call from one of the buddies here or there, names, talk about them, etc.

Unfortunately this seems to be because you have not been in recovery. It appears that your WH is STILL a WH.

This is the typical response of a WH. The anger is fear and guilt over his affair. See how he turned it around on you? You have never given him a reason that you could not be trusted. He has given you many reasons.


Once again, this has not been recovery, especially evidenced by your WH's refusal to participate in the healing. I am shaking my head at your counselor. He/she is not worth the paper his counseling certificate was printed on.

I would suggest you have someone follow your WH on Friday nights. You might get your answer there. Prepare yourself for him to deny, deny, deny and try to turn the tables and make you out to be the bad guy. Don't fall for it. Remember, you don't have to convince him he is having an affair, he already knows he is. Try try try to remain calm, even though I know your heart is beating like a jackhammer. Do not reveal much to him. Watch and listen and collect your evidence. You will then use your evidence to expose to their workplace, families and close friends. Find out if the OW is married.

Best of luck to you and lots of hugs. Stay strong, you can do this. Keep posting and please don't deny what you know to be true in your heart no matter what he tells you.

Friday night is "DATE" night...

Saturday for spouses..

Crash one of those card games!!!

Be bold.. or have close friend do it for you.

he doesn't care

At the very least, the A or EA is in his head. Signs of it being physical are around U. Now it is not time for you to freak out but to carefully plan to shake up his A world, even if it is only in his head. U ready? Got pointers but you need to have your heart and mind in sync. It s/b easier for you t/d that now once the shock of all this wears off.

BTW, GPS.....those units c/b purchased at local stores...try radio shack, best buy, circuit city or check the internet.

L.

You are not 1/2 the problem. You are trying to fix your M. He is trying to avoid you and enjoy himself away from you. You cannot change him. You can accept him as he is, or you can let him know that you will not live as you have been. You do not have the option of forcing him to change. Even an exposure may not work. Look at the woman who got on the Dr. Phil show. That didn't help. Her husband was so deep in the fog that he was trying to justify fathering a child with another woman. Dr. Phil turned to the wife and asked why she hadn't kicked his a... to the curb.

Do not take the blame for your husband's selfish behavior.

Cherished

I think that if a woman has been with a guy as long as the original poster, then she'll know what the signs of lying are better than her H.

Women know these things! And men know that women know them. And there really is nothing that a guy can do to hide his lying.

I bet he is still having the affair. He would have never withdrawn from her anyway if they still work together. This is exactly why Harley is ADAMENT that all contact end, even if it means a career move or moving to another state.

If I were you, I wouldn't say anything. I would hire a PI to follow him and take pics next Friday. If you confront him today, then he will just go deeper and maybe change up his routine.

He is probably having this affair and staying in the marriage "for the kids."

First, my philosophy. IF a story doesn't make COMPLETE sense, it probably isn't true!!! PERIOD.

In this particular case, I agree with MelodyLane. You shouldn't confront him yet. You should gather & collect more evidence & have proof of the A so that when you confront, his denials will look foolish & he won't be able to pull anything more over you. Also, he sounds like he would go deeper underground & be harder to know what he's doing if he suspects you have a clue.

Hang on to this, hire the PI & wait for the results. Then, you can confront.

Global Positioning System. A system that was originally developed by the Defense Department to be able to track the position of their units in the combat zone. But it has common civilian uses. Basically, it is a little box that tells you where you are on the face of the Earth at the moment.

Most of the GPSs now come with a program that can record where the box is. If you put it into his car, turn it on, then recover it later, it will show you where it has been. Some come with maps, or with programs that can show you on a map where his car was.

The most commonly used ones cost a few hundred dollars and should be sufficient. Hide it somewhere in his car on Fri morning, and recover it Saturday morning. Batteries should last that long.

If you want to install it permanently, keep it turned on all the time, and if you can offload the data at your leisure, it will cost you high three digits. You can capture the data into a spreadsheet that will tell you time, place, speed, interface with a map, etc. The nice thing is that you get the data from the GPS unit in his car by using another black box that communicates with the GPS unit in his car by remote, so you do not need to get into his car at all to get the data. It is more expensive, but gives you better data, you don’t need to change batteries as often, and there is almost no chance of him finding it.

For something over a thousand dollars you can get a system that tracks his movement and relays the data to internet in real time, so you can track him on the computer where he is at that instant.

(No, I do not sell such systems, nor do I have first hand knowledge of using it to track a spouse, so take my posting with a grain of salt.)

OK MB's. I had to go to YS's basketball game and to a photo shoot.

Shortly after my last post, WH called to say that he was on his way home and needed me to get OS ready to go to the basketball game. He asked me what was wrong and said I did not sound right. I told him everything was fine and just to come on home.

When he got here, he came into my room and asked me what was wrong. I told him to shut the door and then asked if there was anything that he needed to tell me. He said no. So, then I showed him what I found in the car. He did not get defensive or upset, he just asked what the problem was. I said the problem was that he had a sexual stimulant in his car that was obviously taken!!!! We had a calm discussion and basically he told me that he must have picked up the wrong package the last time he was at the quickie. He takes those stimulant things when he plays cards and all he looked at on the package was the big word Stamina. Then he laughed a little bit and said that he noticed that the last ones he took tasted funny!

A short time later, he came back in and said that it was wierd - that when I pulled out that package that he thought I was upset that he takes those things sometimes (for the record, I don't like it, but I know he does it) abd that I was going to lecture him about taking drugs. I asked if he understood why I was upset and why I had to ask about it, and he said he did.

However, he seems more distant to me since then. Now, I know that he is tired and that may be all it is. But, in my hypersensitive state, I read more into it. I am calm inside and for some reason I believe his story. Should I?

One other thing that just caught my eye...... when I was outside a few minutes ago, I noticed him check what I think is his cell phone and it is in his pocket. This would not be wierd, except that this is a man who NEVER turns on his cell phone unless he is making a call. And, it is always ib his car. However, during his A, he kept it with him and hidden from me.

Now, our billing is set up so that we get a printout off all his calls. Believe me, I still check it every month. There has not been any activity out of the norm for years. He knows that if he was making/getting calls, I would know about it. So, why the phone in his pocket.

I am thinking of calling his number and feining a misdial. His number is only one digit off from mine and I can claim that I was calling to check my voice messages and dialed his number by mistake...... should I do it? Or, would that just make him more cautious in the event that there is something going on?

BTW - THANK YOU to everyone for your input. Self inflicted or not, I would not have handled this afternoon without you. I wanted so bad to call someone, and I think that would have ultimately been a mistake. I am so glad that I came to MB.

I agree wholeheartedly with the 1st sentence but not necessarily with the second. He may mix it up (one Fri night with guys, one Fri with OW). It just seems too obvious for him to go with OW every Fri night; I’d suspect that he may meet her at other times.

Be careful not to fall into the trap of accusing him of meeting OW on Fri night, he produces a proof that he actually was on a certain Fri night with his buddies (or you following him or track him to a poker tournament), and he carries on with OW at other times.

willing, I would back off completely and act normal. Then have him followed on Friday night to see what he is doing. Don't stop investigating until you have accounted for every second of his time and can say confidently that you have ruled out an affair. But don't show your hand until you have something to show, lest you send him underground.

Melody -
I am afraid that I may have already done too much by asking about the pills if he is having an A. Part of me wishes that I had not asked him about it..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

What do YOU think of his explaination?

Also, I can buy a GPS and put it in his car. But, doesn't that go against the complete honestly that Harley teaches? I feel guilty - like I may be causing more damage - if he is not having an A. My gut tells me that he is not. But, my gut did not clue in last time, so I question whether to believe it.

My counselor always told me to go with my gut feelings. And he did not ever seem to think that WH was still having an A. I leaned on that as affirmation that WH was probably not being unfaithful. Yes, a few things still bother me, but I got used to them because I didn't feel like he was being unfaithful. That is why this has rocked my world.

On the other hand, if there really IS nothing to it, I feel like a total loser for getting so worked up about it. Shouldn't I be able to handle the little stuff? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

OK - this really irritating to me...... He came in and unloaded everthing from his pockets on the kitchen counter(as usual) EXCEPT that darn cell phone!!!! Why does he need to keep it in his pocket?

BTW - I am just acting normal, although I want to call that phone soooooo bad.....

Dos his phone have caller ID?

No caller ID on his phone.

He just took it back out to his car, I think.

What bothers me about your situation is

- Your husband sleeping in another bedroom. I can pinpoint the day that my husbands affair started. We had had a big fight and he slept in another bedroom. Normally, the next night he would be back in the bedroom. He did not come back for one week, and only because I cajoled him to. It is not normal for him to be sleeping in another bedroom.

- These card nights on Friday. Where are they held? Who is normally there. Can you verify and can you drive past to see if his car is there.

During my husbands affair, I found some lyrics to a love song in one of his pockets. It was very unusual for my husband to have this. I confronted him and he like your husband looked me straight in the eye and said he had downloaded them from the internet. They were from a particular CD. He was so casual and matter of a factish. I believed him. It had been sent to him by the OW to describe her feelings for him.

To this day, I cannot believe how convincing he was. I believe our FWS become professional con men.

I would be snooping. Your husband sleeping in another bedroom sends alarm bells out to me.

It has sent alarm bells to me for quite some time, I think I am deaf to them anymore. Plus, many people have told me that they sleep in other rooms from their spose for perfectly legitimate reasons. So, I endure.

Evertime I have asked WH when he will come back to sleep in our room, his answer is "I don't know." Last year, I finally decided to make it a place I liked rather than despised and I painted it my favorite color and decorated to my taste. He really has no presence in here anymore except that he keeps his clothes in the drawers and in the closet.

Even on nights when the boys and I have been out of town for whatever reason, he still sleeps in the other room. Wierd.

Willing, the WS wil do and say anything to save their butt. The responses to your questions are rehearsed before the BS ever asks. Trust me...I know from experience. I did it all the time - "Ok, if he asks me about such-n-such, my response will be such-n-such." That's why I could respond so quickly and smoothly. The conversation already happened in my head. I was always defensive, though, and LOOKED for reasons to keep my distance - both physically & emotionally. I convinced myself that my H was bad (though in my heart I knew he wasn't) and I could come up with ALL kinds of justifications. I can understand you wanting concrete evidence but, at this point, I would say you have a good start.

I'm sorry you're going through all of this turmoil. You guys deserve better.

Also, I cannot verify the card games. I am not privy to the names of the players (believe me I have asked) nor to where they play. So, I can't drive by because I have NO idea where to look.

I do believe that there is some legitimate card playing at least sometimes. He makes references to conversations about things like fantasy football and other sports-related things that I think come from those nights 'with the guys.'

Also, the OW from 4 years ago is another teacher at the school where he works. They are both teachers and both still work there. However, their classrooms have been changed and they don't have the opportunities to see each other that they used to. I have at least taken some comfort in that over time.

His behavior is just not the same as it was during the A 4 years ago. Looking back, it was SOOOO obvious then, and I still had no idea.

Could he really still be having an A when I can account for alomst all his time except these Friday night poker games? I am going out of my mind thinking about this.

He probably feels guilt if he's in YOUR room. It's easier to avoid all those feelings if the WS can seperate him/herself.

So, Flukette, IYO..... is this A still ongoing?

If it is, how could I be so stupid to not know it FOR FOUR YEARS!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Can you get hold of his cellphone and check the call history? Also is it possible he has more than one sim card for his cellphone? One that you don't know about?

Everything about his behaviour sounds suspicious to me. The separate bedrooms, the pills, the cellphone, the poker games. I think you are definitely entitled to do some snooping but do your best to act normal until you get evidence. He is a big boy and he knows how to read. I very much doubt he picked up the wrong pills by accident. Good luck. TT

I don't thhink that he has a phone I don't know about. I never heard of a sim card until last week, and I doubt that he is saavy enough to have another and change them out. I do look at his call history at times and I review the itemized bill every month. There has been nothing suspicious.

I realize that there are many red flags. But, there are legitimate explaintions for all these things, too, aren't there? I am just afraid if jumping to conclusions too quickly and causing further damage to the delicate relationship that we have now. That is why I feel bad about tracking him with a GPS..... Looks like I may have to muster the guts to do it anyway.

Ironically, the way I finally confirmed that he had not ended his A on the first try several years ago was by putting the baby monitor in the room where he slept. I heard every word of the middle of the night phone call that night and all h*ll broke loose here. It took that for him to finally end it. (or, so I believe)

I don't know if it is - I think all the signs are there for it to be. If not, maybe he's playing the field or keeping his options open? I have a BAD feeling it is, though. I'd rather not tell you that, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You aren't stupid. You want to believe him and I can understand that. You will want to get some solid evidence and I certainly cannot say that it is still going on for certain. I'm just saying that the whole thing seems fishy to me.

Flukette - don't feel bad telling me anything! I have been told that I am 'hard headed' and sometimes it takes so much for me to embrace something other than my own thoughts.

I am upset - but I can thankfully say that this pain and frustration is SO different than when I found about about the A four years ago. I was so, so scared then. I wanted my marriage at any cost. I was afraid to be on my own financially and emotionally.

I don't feel that way now. If he is having an A, my fight is over. I am stronger as a person and I know I can make it on my own and that I can be happy and that I deserve better.

All that said, I am still afraid to trust my judgement. I will have to find a way to get proof one way or the other before I can rest easily again.

I want to know NOW!! I do not want to waste more time thinking about this. I want to either work on my marriage or move on. Sad thing is that even if there is not an A, I don't think WH wants to work on our marriage. I think he is only here for the kids. Maybe I am too, but I don't think so.

Where is the manual that tells us what to do in these situations? I want black & white answers - I am so tired of hanging out here in the 'grey' world. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Absolutely not! It is not against Harley's principles at all. He very much advocates snooping when you think something is going on. Rather, you have a responsibility to find out the truth. His explanation doesn't ring true to me, but that doesn't mean its not. That is what you have to find out. But snooping will rule it in or out.

I will tell you that an affair would explain quite a few things that just don't add up to me. I have had the hardest time putting my finger on your situation because I have had this sense that something HUGE is missing. It doesn't add up. And while I would hate for it to be the case, this might be why.

WW, can you hire a PI to tail him for one night?

I need to check into finding someone to tail him for one night. I feel stupid asking this, but how do you go about finding a PI?

Another thing that is wrong in our relationship that I haven't mentioned is that WH will not say "I love you." I just went into the other bedroom to tuck in YS and WH is in there watching TV in bed, too. He always goes to sleep early. As usual, I kissed him on the forehead and said "I Love You, Goodnight." He was just irritated and snapped at me. This life s*cks some days.

It makes me so very sad that this is the example that my children have of a marriage. It just makes me more sad to think of them having two homes if we divorce.

If I wanted to find a reliable PI, I would call the police station and the desk sargeant for a referral. Many PI's are retired cops.

Can anyone give ma link to show me what I am looking for as far as a GPS? I went to the Best Buy website and it looks to me like all those products are things that you use to get directions to somewhere. I don't know what I am looking for that would let me put it in his car to find out where he has been.

I think I am going to either do this or get a PI to follow him on Friday night. Surely it cannot be too expensive to get someone to follow him and find out where he goes. I am sure once he gets there, he stays, so it is really probably only a matter of an hour or two worth of work. Will a PI even bother with something like that.

I don't have alot of $$ to spend on this (I need to keep it under $200.00 if at all possible - the lower the better). But, the peace of mind will be priceless so I am definately going to do it (as long as I can get the nerve).

I waver - a GPS may be cheaper (?) and will get no one else involved. However, I run the risk of him finding it in his car. A PI will probably get faster results but will be less risky for me, I think. Any ideas what a PI for a few hours one night might cost?

OK - this strikes me as wierd, too. I just went into the kitchen and noticed the TV light still on in the bedroom where he sleeps. I went in there and he is watching TV - wide awake. I asked if he was just not tired yet and he said he wasn't. Kind of strange because he went in there to lie down 2.5 hours ago because he was so exhausted.

He usually goes to bed early so it is strange to me that he is up this late - esp after a late 'poker game' last night. Is he awake because he is stressed that he has been 'caught' today?

I am so tired of being hyper-sensitive to these things. (Seriously, should I even be reading anything into the fact that he has not gone to sleep yet? It seems that I am ridiculous - why do I keep doing this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />) I was NOT this way before the A. It makes me angry that his actions changed that part of me. It is not fun to over-analyze every little thing that happens. This is a sad, sad consequence of his A.

Hello willingtowait2,
Go through the phone book and "interview" PI's before deciding on which on you will use. I can tell you first hand that I hired one for $100.00 and it got me nowhere. Zilch.Then I waited too long with the credit card company to fight it and I was out my $100.00.

I then called the whole list of them in th phone book and explained what info I was looking for and what price they would charge for that. I got prices all over the board. The one I ended up going with was also an attorney, was reasonable and was able to get every question answered within just a few hours.
A friend of mine hired a PI a few years ago to follow her husband for a week and take tons of pictures (He lived in the city during the week and came home on weekends.) It cost her almost 3,000.00. That is a lot of $$$ and I doubt if most of us average joes could afford that!! But it got her what she needed. She discovered he had his own private mail box in the city, had an OW who he wined and dined. Also my friend was pregnant at the time. Her H was flabbergasted when she walked into the restaurant where he was dining with OW and presented them with all the photos of them together and the mail that she wasn't supposed to see. They are still married by the way, and it is 4 years later and it's going very well.

I do also have to agree with the other posters about confronting him. I had a very bad problem with that -- as soon as I found out something, I would confront him with it because I was so upset and couldn't keep it together!!!
My WH went much deeper and learned to lie better and to never use his cell phone around me -- he would just call her from pay phones. Now he has a different job and has his own personal line and personal email. That scares the crap out of me. Also, he never uses the computer at home anymore. I still have so many red flags -- for all I know there is a new OW. The old OW didn't want anything more to do with him and last I heard she got married this past fall.

With that all said, our relationship has been great for the most part. He's given me flowers a couple times, says I love you now and never could before. He calls me or emails me a few times per day. For awhile he showed me his cell bills. He explains himself, his whereabouts and will even call me from the phone of where he says he's at if I ask. Our relationship is probably better now that it has ever been before, but once that trust is broken it's so hard to regain the trust!!

Also there was one sentence you said that bothered me:


Well, no it wouldn't be the same as I'm sure he remembers very clearly what NOT to do to make it obvious to you. He knows how NOT to act and probably practiced answers to your probable questions over a 100 times in his head just to hide it. I feel strongly about that.
In my situation, I had 3 D-days. (Same OW) Each one was very different because my WH "learns" from my reactions. The answers (lies) he gives are answered in a way that will get the "best" reaction from me.
Seems like I sound so bitter and I don't mean to. Just to be fair to you in the info that I give, the lying from my WH was just as devastating as the A because I felt that all these years, I really never knew this person at all.
Honesty is something that is just so important to me. I have never been a good liar and I've never had much time for people who lie to me. Goes way back to high school I guess.
Anyway, enough of my saga, just wanted another avenue for you to consider. I will watch your thread. Take care!

Precisely right. Do not think your are somehow not normal to feel this way. A's change every S's perspective on how they view their WS forever. I have strongly advocated this for a long time.
I must ask however, why have you allowed your WH to continue to teach at the same building as his former lover???
Harley advocates NC at whatever the cost might be. He should have changed jobs if necessary to have NC with former lover. Why did you not INSIST on this at the very least?
Your recovery has not gone well because you did not make this YOUR BOUNDARY! YOU SHOULD HAVE! HE OWES YOU THAT MUCH. You have accepted far less than what you were owed after discovery of the first affair!
BTW, there is no such thing as snoping after you have discoverd your WH in an A. You have every right to know the truth you are entitled to know from here on out. Your WH must accept that as part of the consequence of his A.
If one has nothing to hide, one hides nothing!!!!!!!
I do believe you pulled the trigger too soon on your evidence. I know your emotions got the best of you, but it would have been far better to wait for irrefutible proof before exposure. Now you have driven him futher underground
and it will be even harder to investigate the truth.
My main point to you is why do you allow continued contact between your WH and his Ow? This is exactly what DR H has adamantly said should never be allowed.
Please go back to MB main website and review DR H's suggestions. You have not follwed through on any of them. This is why your R has gone so poorly.
All Blessings,
Jerry

My WH did manage to go to ONE counseling session with me. At that time, he asked MC if he would have to quit his job and our MC said no. Not as long as he ended things with OW. Unfortunately, that was my demize. WH loves his job, he is great at it, and he wants to keep it. So, once he heard the MC say that he could keep it as long as he discontinued his A, it seemed OK. I KNOW that Harley says it is not possible, but my own MC said it could work. That is why I have tolerated it. I am not trying to just not follow through with things - I have been trying to do the best I can.

Obviously, it does not appear that it is working out for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I feel a bit better this morning. Just got back from church where I teach the 3-5 grade sunday school class. I learn so much from those kids and I enjoy every minute I get to spend with them. Our lesson today was about the consequences of sin and 'you reap what you sow.' It was thought provoking for me in light of my current situation.

Anyway, I agree that I probably screwed up by letting WH know what I found. I am very emotional about these things and I am not good at waiting or hiding things. In fact, I cringe at the thought of having to go through an entire week acting normal as I wait until Friday night to track where he goes. I deperately want to call somone and tell them about what I found and what I think I need to do. I don't think that is the right thing to do, though. I think I need to keep this totally to myself until I either find something or I don't. Do you agree? It is going to be SO hard for me...... I am already leaning toward that 'obsessive' state that I was in after finiding out about the A..... thinking of it overtakes every part of me all the time.

I know, I know...... even if I do not find an A, I do not want this marriage the way it is any longer. That is what brought me back the MB in the first place. I'll have to decide if I am going to Plan A again to try and get some progress going, or if I am going to move to seaparation. I guess I can't make that decision until I know if there is another OW or not, huh? Thoughts?

I worked so hard over the past few years and I can't believe that I find myself in this situation still. I feel like a failure/loser/doormat/settler. Not great for the esteem. In this state, I don't feel like I deserve better. I KNOW that I do, I just feel like maybe I made bad choices (like marrying him in the first place, and by not making him leave when I found out about the A, and by fighting so hard when it may have been a lost cause all along, and by allowing myself to trust him when he may have been carring on an A all this time anyway......) Like I am suffering the consequences of making bad choices, you know?

Jerry - my memory leads me to recall that most of Dr. Harley's suggestions are things that BOTH spouses have to agree to do for recovery to be successful. I enthusiastically agree, but WH will have no part of any of it. Where does that leave me? Also, what parts do you suggest that I read first?

Thanks so Much!!! WTW

WW, he doesn't say that. He does suggest that mutual, enthusiastic agreement is key to POJA. But you are not in recovery yet. We are trying to get you to that point. If there is an affair going on, busting it up will hopefully bring your H back to the marriage so you can begin recovery.

And I applaud Jerry for bringing up a serious impediment to recovery. We have other situations here where the BS did not insist on no contact where the affairs went on for years. Some are still in progress. But, no use crying over spilled milk, better late than never.

Did anyone answer your ? about GPS? Did you give some thought to hiring a PI?

I am still looking for an example of what kind of GPS to look for.

I am going to check a few PI places that I found in the phone book tomorrow and see what they tell me tomorrow.

I need a plan - I think that part of my whackiness right now is that I do not have one. OK - so I need to insist that WH and (former)OW do not work together. (Ironically, when the A finally ended 3.5 years ago, one of the things I was assured of by WH is that OW would be changing schools at the end of that year. The end of the year came and went and I checked to see if she actually did change. She didn't. I asked WH about it at that time and his answer was that he had no control over making her move schools and that he didn't know why she didn't end up moving. I let it go at that time because I believed that everything was OK for some reason. Hindsight is 20/20 - I can see now that was a mistake.)

Anyway, I can't insist that he change jobs right now. It would probably seem to come out of nowhere and would never happen.

So, what do I do RIGHT NOW? What kind of short term-plan do I focus on? That is what I am struggling with...... It seems like I have done so many things wrong (albeit with the best intentions) that I don't know what is right anymore. Ugh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WW, I think you can't make any long term plans until you find out the truth. You can't make plans without FACTS. So your only focus should be on finding out the truth right now.

THEN, when you have ruled an affair in or out, we can help you strategize. But all the plans in the world will be worthless without the key ingredients: FACTS.

I used an LAS 3100. Go to ebay and search for Land Air Sea - or LAS 3100.

Also, the company website - http://www.landairsea.com/

This device is designed just for this purpose, not for hikers to find the trail with.

-AD

Big red flags a flying for me wtw.I think he is cheating too.Sorry.

It's been too long post A for him to be acting this way and I agree,things should be improved,not the way they are now.

I hope you can get more precise info by the GPS.

Good luck with this.

O

AD -
Just curious - what did you find out when using the GPS?

Looks like I can get a LAS 3100 on ebay for a little under $300.00.

Do you guys think I should hire a PI for Friday night or get a GPS instead?

I doubt whether he will be doing anything this Friday. You have put him on high alert. You could be wasting your money on a PI, this week.

I would be checking his wallet, his pockets and his car on a daily basis. Check his wallet after he has gone to sleep.

This Friday, before he leaves, check the Milage meter on his car before he leaves and then check it again later in the morning. You will be able to work out, how many miles he has travelled. That wont tell you where he has gone, but it is a start.

Also, I would be going to my husbands work on a regular basis, during his lunch break just to say hello. I was in the area, and popped in to bring you this cake or whatever. If there is anything going on, he will not be happy about that. Is there any way, you can get work at the school. Do you know any of his fellow teachers who would tell you if something was going on.

I would be working towards your husband coming back to the marital bed. Do it gradually. Start by saying you have not been sleeping well. You are hearing noises during the night. It is frightening you. You need him. Ask him, can you sleep with me just for tonight because of such and such. Start off with one night at a time.

Good luck, I will be following your post.

Be careful and patient. You do not want to drive hime further underground. Going to the school, this week may not be a good idea. It is too soon after the pill incident.

I agree...since you just confronted him about the pills, he will be on guard and laying low for a few days. If you stay calm and cool about everything, he'll eventually think he's off the hook again.

Just a minute here.

Waiting, you’re acting as if you have to gather all this evidence in the next day and a half or the coach changes back into a pumpkin. I’ve just re-read all of your thread and I don’t see where there should be any arbitrarily assigned time limit. Frankly, if he’s never recommitted to the marriage and sought counseling, etc., then the problem has existed for four years and I'd counsel a little bit more patience. If there’s no reason to wrap this thing up immediately, can’t you back off a tiny bit and prepare to obtain what the military calls tactical intelligence?

For instance, before you go to the expense of hiring a PI or spending several hundred dollars on a tracking device, shouldn’t you try some of the low-tech, low-cost solutions first? You could, for instance, get a trusted friend to lend you a vehicle hubby doesn’t know. The same friend can watch the kids for a short time. You can drive to the place where he’s supposed to be on Friday nights and check to see if he is. If he’s not, that’s a datum you add to a journal you need to start. The next Friday, you can try to follow him. It might take several tries to find out where he’s actually going, if indeed, he’s going anywhere. Also, I don’t know where you live. You might check with Flukeboy’s thread.

What is he doing with that cell phone you say he takes out to the car. Is it going under the seat or just being locked inside. If it’s going into the glove box or under the seat, does it go under the driver’s side seat? If it goes under the driver’s side seat, you might consider sliding a small, voice activated tape recorder under the other seat. A bit of duct tape, doubled back on itself so the sticky side is exposed in a loop, will anchor the recorder securely enough so it won’t slide out. I have such a recorder I got from Radio Shack years ago (for another purpose) and I can vouch for their durability, and to the sensitiveness of the microphone. If he makes calls from the car, or has someone in the car with him, such a recorder will pick up VOLUMES of data to add to your first intel.

If he uses email, a keylogger is relatively cheap and they can be downloaded from the Internet. There are even some free ones out there. They will log everything he types into an email, any of the instant messenger programs, etc.

If you’re going to gather information yourself, I recommend you take some time to read Spying On Your Spouse, by Kelly Squires. It is a little dated (published in 1996), so it isn’t current on all the latest electronics, but it has excellent information you can use. Another one, written by a working private investigator, is 180 Telltale Signs Mates Are Cheating And How To Catch Them by Raymond B. Green. The title is a little imposing but it’s an easy read, as is the one by Squires. Both are available on half.com and/or Ebay for pennies on the dollar.

Waiting, one of the things that I got from the above books is that PIs come in all flavors and degrees of competence. (Some specialize in electronic surveillance, for instance, some concentrate on infidelity.) The industry is not well regulated in most states. Yours might be an exception; I don’t know. However, unfortunately, if you look for one relatively inexpensive, you might find one who is a “Magnum PI” wannabe who’s impatient with such a mundane case as yours. He won't give yours the attention it deserves. PIs, by the way, advertise in the yellow pages. There are lots of them around. Please be careful or you’re not going to be satisfied with the one you find.

Innocence had some good checks you can do without involving anyone else. Checking the mileage can be especially revealing. To those I would add calling him on a Friday night to ask a question, just to see if there are “card game” sounds in the background. Make up your own excuse. You can’t find your car keys, for instance, did he pick them up? Can he please bring home a loaf of bread, pick up that prescription, etc., etc., on the way home? It has to be a plausible reason, so think carefully before you call. You may have to actually run out of bread/milk to make it real. Even if he says no, the purpose of the phone call has been served. And...you can even "get mad" if he won't do as you ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These are just a few ideas that came to mind when I re-read your thread. I hope they are of use but they might not be. If you take nothing else from my post, I’d recommend the two short books I mentioned above. Good luck in all that you do.

Thanks for all the advice. I realize that I am running at breakneck speed now that my alert is up again. It is that feeling of "I need to know NOW." I have a hard time waiting.... I want a resolution NOW.

I feel even more stupid when I read your suggestions and realize how warped my situation is and how I have adapted to it as 'normal.'

I can't call WH when he goes to these poker games. He turns his phone off. Has for years. No way to contact him. I have been down the road of having issues with it - like what is something happened to one of the kids? how would he know?. But, there was an incident about a year after the A where a vindictive friend of OHW called me on a Friday night (yes, WH was gone) and told me that they were seen together that night. Needless to say I went hysterical, tried to track him down, left nasty phone messages on OW's #, etc. Ever since then, he claims that he called the poker guys with me on the other line, so I have all the proof that I need that he is there. I am not allowed to know names of these people, phone numbers, or where they live/play. I have no way to find out where he is except to follow him. I can't do it myself with two kids. Someone has to follow him from when he leaves our house because I have not the slightest clue where he goes.

The phone - he keeps it locked in his car and I don't have a key. He 'lost' the extra during the A. He didn't like me snooping and he would even hide his keys from me then. He does not hide them now, but he always locks his car. I can get it if I need to, but it is wierd that he won't give me a key. I did get a spare made at one point during the A, but I have since lost it. As long as I don't act wierd, I can probably still get it when I need to.

I have looked for another phone and have not found one.

His job - he has done a very good job of keeping me out. I don't know hardly any of the other teachers there. It is not close to where I work and our lunch breaks are not overlapping so 'stopping by' is not feasible. It is hard for me to justify risking a scene at his school - this is not something that the kids should be involved in. I don't want them to lose respect for him as a teacher. He teaches at a very 'hard' school in the rough side of town and those kids don;t need more drama.

I was just out running some errands and had some time to think. I believe that a GPS is probably the way to go. I can put it in his bumper and see where he goes. It would not be a one-time thing and since I have put him on guard, so it might take awhile to see what is going on.

He does not use the computer at home, so there is nothing to find out there. I wouldn't have access to his computer at school, so if he does use it there, I am out of luck. My guess, though, is that he does not use it.

I have thought about asking a friend to follow him on Friday night. I don't feel like I can do it because the kids would know that something was up. They are used to having 'mommy time' on Friday nights and there is the risk that they would tell WH that I was gone if I have someone stay with them. I might be able to arrange for them to spend the night with my parents or something, but that would put him on alert as well as get my family wondering. Then, I would still have to deal with the part about getting out right beind him. A friend could do it for me, but should I trust anyone with this? Plus, there is the risk that they would 'blow it' since they would not be experienced doing it.

The hard part right now is living here like everything is normal when I have all these thoughts and feelings inside that I have to hide. Do I risk tructing a friend or relative with my concerns yet? I have cried 'wolf' so many times with my parents that I am afraid to talk to them again without knowing anything concrete.

So, for now, do I just have to live here, be normal, and wonder what the h*ll is going on until I can find out? A daunting task......

Again, thank you so much for helping me. I would be lost without MB right now. I may not have handled things very well, but it would have been worse without you guys and gals.

As far as getting him back in my bed - it is a lost cause. I have tried EVERYTHING, believe me. He does not care that I am lonely or whatever. In fact, he has been known to promise me in the heat of the moment that he will sleep in with me if I will do SF favors that he wants. After he gets what he wants, he rescinds and goes back to the other room. He says he feels bad, but still goes........ Now, he only comes in for SF in the mornings so that he does not have to deal with that issue. In the morning, he HAS to get up to go to work.

Another reason that I hate this situation.

He does not care that I am lonely or whatever.

It is so sad that I have not put all these pieces together for so long. How can I be such an idiot?

I just find ways to make excuses for him......

Right now, part of me wants to find out that he is still having the A so I can just get out of this situation without being the one 'at fault.' I feel like I want out, but I don't want to be the one who makes that choice in case there is still some hope for something better. That is why I have stayed..... hoping for something better down the road. Something better for both me and our kids.

Is is warped to almost WANT to find an A? It sure would explain alot of things that I have not been able to explain myself. There would be a bit of releif in that.

Willing - Don't you think it's time YOU start taking control of this situation? You're begging for the crumbs that he's tossing your way and believing that that's all you deserve in a relationship.

It's time to start working on your self respect and realizing that you don't have to continue to live like this. Either the marriage has to change or your living arrangements need to. This is distressing stuff to read. You're so hungry that you'll take whatever he throws your way and it is costing you a lot personally to live like that.

Ugh,

Wtw,how is this life working for you because it is disturbing to me.

Affair or not,surveillance or not,look at the basic facts: your H is dishonest with you,does not sleep in the same bed with his WIFE,refuses to tell you anything about the poker buddies and his Friday night mystery outings,cell phone off,refuses counseling,has some pill wrapper you find in car that he blows off with some ridiculous excuse,still works with homewrecking OW and just because you think they don't have a lot of time to be with one another,do you really think that would stop them?? The list goes on .Are you getting this? PLease.Try to see this clearly because no one deserves to be treated like you are.

O

willing hon...he IS still having the affair and in your heart you know this...even without proof

i too didn't want to believe that my H was again involved with the OW...even as the facts piled up...even as he moved into the guest room, bought calling cards, refused to go back to counseling

he gave TONS of excuses that i WANTED to believe

eventually he moved out....and now he and OW are living together

while they are home you have a better chance of saving your marraige!!!

you need proof to use for exposing the affair and you need it fast...that is your next step that could save your marraige

OK - you are cracking me up!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I KNOW that you are all right. As disturbing as my situation may sound, I am SO SO SO much better than I was when I found out about the A the first time. I literally had a nervous breakdown and was a total basket case. Not so this time (even though it might sound that way!).

I worked so much on myself over the past 4 years. My counselor agreed that until I was healed myself, I could not contribute what I needed to the marriage. I KNOW I deserve better and so do my kids. But, I also know that WH is capable of better because I have seen it. That is the reason I have stayed. That, and because I don't want to split up and hurt the kids.

Since finiding out about the A, I have earned a promotion at work, started my own photography business (that I LOVE!), and I have taken more pride in my appearance. I have made friends and I do fun things. I am not afraid to go to events and do activities by myself when WH refuses to accompany me. I have found happiness within myself. I am not happily married, but I am happy as a person. Most of the time, anyway.

So, all that said, I know that I can find a way to do what it takes to discover if there is an A to discover. True, I feel like an idiot for not seeing it earlier - I probably just didn't want to so I put the proverbial blinders on. It is not fun to see what is out there once the blinders come off - especially when it is not et black and white for me.

I think I am at the point where I realize that this life is NOT working for me. That's why I came back to MB.

Funny thing - I didn't consider myself a 'MB flunkie' until yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Guess I am, though. This might be my second 'test.' I WILL NOT FLUNK THIS TIME! (But, I will also say that I need some help to do better......)

It does bother me, though, that in 24 hours I have gone from just wondering how to do better at my M to being somoewhat sure that WH is still having an A. Is that normal? Or, just irrational emotions getting the best of me right now?

Hi Willing,
I have my own photo biz, too. Do you mind sharing which state you are in? I'm just curious.

Look, you've been living like this for 4 years. Why be in a rush now?

Start gathering information. Don't you have some friends that might be able to do some spying for you? Mr. Wondering suggests voice activated recorders, how about using one of those in his car? Why not put the baby monitor back in his room?

Now, this would be personal preference, but I would have a real problem with him coing in for SF. SF is more than a morning quickie. Don't you have a lock on your door? I guess if you did that now he'd know you were up to something more than connfronting him yesterday.

take care

*Octobergirl with 2x4 in hand considering whether or not to use it* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In the 3+ years I have been here wtw,I have only batted 3 people with a 2x4 when they don't seem to get it.I am holding off because I am seeing with each successive post that it may just be dawning on you.

I am glad that you have made improvements in yourself,that is good.You may just have to consider that you are back to square one and make plans for that.But you do have to follow through and find out if he is having an A at some point,sooner than later since if it is going on,and I personally think something of that nature is,then you are not recovered and the past several years were a sham.At the very least,he is not treating you lovingly and like a wife except when he feels like it.



Sure it's normal.You have had the rug pulled out again, even if it's not an affair,there's a lot going on that is not suggestive of a healthy marriage and there are too many secrets and unexplained behavior.

Hang in there,we're with you!


O

When I exposed the A, my H told me he had an affair because I "ignored him". Yeah, right. How many times did I hear "Leave me alone"? That seems like your situation. It plain doesn't matter what the guy is doing. He's not interested in a relationship with YOU.

If you are willing to wait, that's exactly what you'll have. So what if he has a few affairs along the way?

The question is this: Are you willing to settle for this?
If not, do something about it. Exposing yet another affair is a pathetic attempt to clear the way for you to build a relationship with him. The problem is that he's already been exposed with an affair and he hasn't turned towards you.

Cherished

I found exactly when and for how long my XW drove to OM's appt. It's a real eye-opener. The software shows you a track of the car on the map, along with the time. As long as the vehicle is moving, you get data every second.

The unit I used is a recorder. It does not connect to you by cell-phone. You have to download the data from the unit later. I think it is probably unsafe for many BS's to have the real-time tracker - because of the urge to go to the scene of the tryst and make a scene.

-AD

I'd hate for you to pay that much for it. I've seen them go used for $180 to $200 on ebay.

-AD

Hi again,

I have to agree with the innocence_lost. I doubt he will be doing anything this friday, as he's been alerted to the suspicion.
Checking the mileage is a good idea. My WH put in 26,000 miles in ONE YEAR and he didn't even have a job at the time. It was 113 miles round trip for him to see OW. He claims he used to go out driving a lot to kill time.


Now, if he has to drive even 30 miles into the city he thinks it is ssssooooo far!! Kind of funny if you ask me. OW was on the other side of the city!!

Do you have a friend who can park a 1/2 block away from your house and follow him for the next couple friday nights --before you spend the money to hire a PI?? Maybe a friend who could borrow another friend's car that he wouldn't recognize?
My best advice is do not drive him to lie more, or whatever you want to call it. When you confront WS without all your cards on the table it is not a good thing.

am a fan of the PI.

I hired a guy who was great..again, was retired policeman.

They got all the info I needed in about five hours.

And I did NOT like what I found.

But that was why I hired them.

There are some instances in life that are good to be proactive on. Every day at work I see people who "let that mole just grow...ignore it..it will go away". I hear that. They see something growing on them. They think it's just a pimple. Or a mole. And it's "nothing". But it is cancer and it can spread. They are afraid of finding out what it is and what will happen when the news is confirmed. So they ignore.

GEt gps or one night with a PI...and I'd wait for 2 weeks from this friday to do it. Let things die down if you get a PI.

All they need is a recent photo of WH. Car tags, color and make. Point of origin *(where WH most likely will be before leaving out on friday night so they can follow him). That's it.

OK. Kids are in bed and WH is at the Sunday night poker game - I DO know the people his is with toight. I work with them, so I ALWAYS check to be sure he was there. So far, so good.

There is lots to catch up on since this afternoon and so much that I have thought about since then.

It is SO hard acting like there is nothing wrong now that I believe there is an A going on. I feel nothing but hate for WH right now, yet I must continue to act like the happy little doormat I have been in the past. Yuk. Tonight, all was quiet - dinner was finished, kids were bathed and ready for bed, and I was reading - just the usual. Then, before leaving, WH came in to snap at me about $$ - basically to pick a fight. It made me so mad!!! I snapped back and he went on his usual rant, calling me an idiot, etc. I really think that he wanted to create nastiness between us so that he could stop feeling guilty about his activities. Come to think of it, I think he does that alot.

As I was laying down with my 5 year old son so he would go to sleep, I finally realized/accepted/acknowledged that he is only staying here for the kids. His dad left after cheating his mom, and that is the one thing he does not want to do. That is the ONLY reason he is here. He does not want to be the bad guy in the kids eyes.

It is amazing how much all seems to fall into place once you start to see what is going on. One thing that I remembered this afternoon was a conversation that we had last week. It was on our 14th anniversary and I was a basketcase because he passed up the opportunity to spend the evening with me - his actions, coupled with the sad state of our relationship, put me over the edge. Anyway, I asked him at one point if he ever wished that he had stayed with OW instead of me. I fully expected him to say NO, but he just shrugged his shoulders and whimpered something like "I don't know." It shocked me, but I was in such a state that for some reason I just glossed over it. I asked him if he still sees her at work and wishes that they were together. His answer we that all he says to her when he sees her in the hall is "hey, how's it going." That was the first time he has acknowledged that he still has contact with her. I know, I know - i should have known...... but I didn't.

You know, it never did sit right with me that it was not more of an issue to him that I refused SF for so long. It is one of his top emotional needs. Now, it seems clear that he is probably getting that need filled from OW. Makes me sick to my stomach.

So........ how long should I expect it to take to gather evidence? Am I looking at weeks on months? I don't know how long I can endure this.

Too many things for one post......

Should I consider letting a friend in on my suspicions? I am afraid of not having any sort of support network for me while this is going on. I let WH convince me that this was best kept between us for over 4 months right after discovery. All that did was enable his behavior and end up sending me to the dr. after a nervous breakdown. If this is going to take some time, would it be OK to let someone in on it? Or, would that be a mistake? Thoughts?

BTW......

moveforward: I am in arkansas. I would love to use that baby monitor again, but he broke it to pieces as soon as he figured out that I used it to listen to him.

Octobergirl: I am honored that you considered the 2x4! Please feel free to bring it out anytime you see fit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Sometimes it takes just that for me to see what is going on. Obviously - or I would not have let this go on for 4 years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

AD - I will look around for that GPS. Sounds like it worked for you and it might just be what I need. Something I can control and I can use it as often as needed. Thanks for the tip on that one.

Finally....... one big thing that WH has always been adament about is staying in the house. He insists that he will not leave because he loves this house. It is nothing special, but it is home. Over the years, I had decided that it would be OK for me to move if that is how it worked out. Now, I am determined that I will NOT be displaced from my home. I will catch him in this A and he will be out - not me. I have alot at stake here and if I hold the cards, I am in a better position to get when I want. My kids, my home, and some happiness in my life.

I am going to need lots of help along the way. I'll gather evidence and keep it to myself. When will I know to expose? Do I expose when they are together? Do I have him served with papers? Do I expose when it is just the two of us? I am getting ahead of myself here, huh?......

When WH got home and went to go to bed, I kissed him and said "Goodnight, I Love you," just like I always do. He turned his head just like always and I kissed him on the cheek. Now I am thinking about how he has only let me kiss him on the cheek or forehead for so long now.

Guess he doesn't feel anything for me and instead feels like he needs to be 'faithful' to OW. I want to throw up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Good thing I still have some sleep aids from the dr. I also think I need to start taking my anti-depressants again. I stopped a few months ago because I didn't think I needed them. I don't want to go down too far again, so if I start back on it now hopefully I can prevent that and manage to keep my head on straight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Ever watch the movie 'Fiddler on the Roof'? You know the one where the father creates a dream so he can concote a reason why his daughter can't marry the old butcher?!?!? Hm.... maybe if you had a few dreams.... hm.... well. I know I did. Yep, slipped out that the WS heard of them.....well when the WS asked if any guys 'hit on me'..... I couldn't lie, I had to say yes. LOL!!! Yea, George and Tom....that's their names. I told the WS at the time, too bad I can't give you their last names..... they are 2 famous. LOL!!! That WS was soo foggy he didn't get it. LOL!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would withhold the ILY's if you think he is being a WS.

L.

I feel like things are coming at me from all sides.

I just got an e-mail that my dad sent over the weekend – he has bought airline tickets and booked lodging for the family trip in March. I thought he was not going to do that until later. And, yes, he bought a ticket for WH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> even though we told him last week that there was a possibility that WH could not go because of school commitments. What my dad does not know is that WH told me later last week that he was not going to go on the trip because it did not sound fun to him. After heated discussion, WH told me he would think about it. My gut tells me that he will not go. I dread telling my parents that because they will really get their feelings hurt and for some reason I feel like it is my fault.

In light of everything that is swirling around me right now, do I mention any of this (my suspicinions) to my parents? Or, just let it go and pretend like everything is OK for now and play along like WH will be going on the trip? I am sick to my stomach again.

Why can’t things just go along easily for me sometimes? (OK, pity party over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> )

Can I bring cupcakes or cookies to your party?

March is a while a way. Just let it rest right now. Lots can change and happen in that time frame. Your dad will not be able to get a refund probably, so just let it go for right now.

Sit down today and figure out a plan. Make your shopping list. A baby monitor is cheap and if the last one made him so upset, I'd say go for another one. Either that, or go to radio shack and see if they have other suggstions that might be smaller, less obvious.

Party's over. Get on with what you know you need to do.

blessings

wtw,

Ok,this really isn't so confusing.I know you feel dumped on with all that has been going on but you just need to get back to basics and start your planning again.WH has been acting very badly and so your plan should look a bit like this:

1)Assess whether or not an A is gong on-

A) Yes A: Then consider Plan B.Plan A is out the window now IMO.You have been doing that mostly all along.Also consider legal separation.If WH doesn't want to leave the house and you SHOULDN'T leave,then legal paths may need to be taken to work that out.Just putting that out there for future reference.

B)NO A: Request counseling and/or legal separation.You cannot go on as is even if there turns out not to be an A.He is treating you like a "friend with benefits" only a true freind wouldn't be treating you like he has(Octobergirl reserving 2x4 for your WH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />).

The easy part is making sure you have a plan in place and you know what you need to do(make a list if needed).The rest is just work to accomplish the goals in the plans.Right now it's finding out if your WH is in an A.After that is determined,you can plan for what to do next and you know we will help with that.Be methodical.You've been through this before and although the intial shock that it all may be happening again or never stopped is stressful,you CAN make it through.

None of this is your fault! And regarding telling your parents,I don't know what kind of relationship you have with them but I am a firm believer in honesty about what is going in my life.My parents know everything and always have.If you feel that they are too fragile or whatever to handle any more bad news just tell them that your WH opts out of going on vacation.It may be better for you anyway with him not there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sending STRENGTH and POWER to you!! YOU WILL BE OK NO MATTER WHAT! You are woman and mother! Roar!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

O

P.S. Back off on the EN's you're giving WH.Let him feel a bit of you pulling away....see what happens.

About the trip, my dilemma is this......

My parents know EVERYTHING about the A years ago and the state of my marriage since then. I am afraid that if I breathe wind to them too early about my suspicions, that they will inadvertently treat WH differently and he will clue in that something has changed. I don't want to risk that yet as it might make it harder (and take longer) to find out what is going on.

However, if I don't tell them the reason and let them think he just doesn't want to go (which is actually the case), I feel stuck in the middle between my parents and WH. It is a very stressful situation for me. I know because I have been there before. I end up making stupid excuses for his behavior and I hate it. I feel like all judgemental eyes are on me.

I guess I just bide my time on that one for now. I'll tell WH about the tickets being bought and see what he says. Really, if he is not going to go, he needs to be the one to tell them anyway. I just hate that something that should be really, really fun and is a wonderful gift inadvertently causes me pain.

Hopefully, by the time the kids and I hit the slopes in late March, I will be through most of this and will be living independent from this pain.

DO TELL A TRUSTED FRIEND!! You can't shoulder this burden on your own - you are only human after all!
Your WH will of course want you to keep it to yourself because he doesn't want to feel embarrassed!
I wouldnt have made it through those first few months after d-day with out MB and a real live friend that I felt comfortable with.
Of course, after exposure - EVERYBODY KNEW but not the gory details - just that one friend and everyone here!

Suzy -
I did tell a very supportive friend. Best thing I did today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Question...what are the odds of having that friend tail him when needed?

If it's someone who's vehicle he doesn't know, then it would probably work well as long as they're cautious.

As far as the cell phone...some companies have an online invoice system that would allow you to see calls within 24 hours of when they were made...sometimes even within minutes! You might check and see if your provider has something along those lines.

On access to his car...when you get a chance...walk out to his car and look on the driver's side dashboard, right at the base of the windshield. There is a small aluminum plate with a whole bunch of numbers on it...right them down (make sure you get it EXACTLY right).

Also make sure you know the year, make, and model of his car, and then call a local dealership and let them know that you need a spare key made. They'll probably require you to show your license (are you on the title?), but they should be able to cut you a spare key that will fit it no problems. (If it REALLY comes down to it, tell the person you're talking to exactly WHY you need the key...they may work with you in that case if for no other reason).

There seem to be a ton of issues in your R with your H. Honestly, it sounds like you never really dealt with the first A completely...which means that there is such a huge seperation right now between you that it's hard for some of us to really be able to comprehend.

He's made it clear that he's not willing to work to meet any of your emotional needs. I hate to phrase it like this, but have you made it clear to him that if he DOESN'T start doing this, he runs a major risk of losing you?

Something to think about at least.

You are right. WE never delt with the first A. I delt with the A - with the help of my counselor. WE couldn't deal with it because he would not participate.

And, you're right. There is so much separation between us that we basically live separate lives right now. I did not, DO NOT, want it this way. But, little piece by little piece along the way, I have accepted what he offers and learned to live with it. My mistake - I know. But, I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought this would eventually work out and staying together was the best thing in the long run for me and the kids.

Each time I have tried to make it clear that he runs the risk of losing me, I realize that it is not me that he cares about. He does not care if he loses me - how sad is that? Each time it comes down to the kids. And, I give in hoping for more for the sake of my kids.

This time my LB is empty. He has used up every single thing in there and I, frankly, do not want him if he cares so little about me that he would string me along for 4 YEARS and keep me in this relationship under false pretenses just so he did not have to be the one to do this to our kids.

My kids and my happiness are what I intend to come away with this time. I have no more room in my life for somone who would steal all my trust, love, and emotional well-being and 4 years of my life! I HATE him right now!

Then perhaps it's already time to consider plan B or plan D?

Plan B really only works after a great plan A...which I'm not sure that you've really been able to do so. But, noting that your LB is empty indicates that things are at a very very bad state.

Personally, while I am VERY pro-marriage, it would seem to me that perhaps it IS time to move on...for YOUR sake. It sounds to me like you're both just in this for the kids anymore...but what kind of example is your marriage providing for your kids? HIS family provided a poor example...and look what it lead him to.

I honestly think you might make it clear to him that this is beyond what you're willing to accept anymore. Hopefully you'll get some vets to log in here for some better advice.

Owl -
I think that maybe in my mind I am at that point that you refer to. If he is having an A, I have nothing left to put into this marriage. I am not sure that I have anything else, anyway.

But, determining if he is having an A will make a big difference in how I handle my next move. It would be a shame for me to move out and move on just like he wants if he has been deceiving me all this time. He KNOWS that I want(ed) this marriage to work more than anything and he KNOWS how hard I have tried to make it work. If I go ahead and throw in the towel without knowing the full extent of the situation, I have alot to lose.

Make sense? I guess what I am saying is that I think I know how this will end. We'll split. But, how that comes into play has yet to be determined.

Plus, if I have time to discover and deal with his potential A now, I will be in better shape to help get my kids through a separation and/or divorce. This will be SO hard on them.....

What is there to suggest? She needs a backbone implant. She *KNOWS* what she to do:

Kick his a** out of the house; file for divorce; go to plan B.

If she isn't going to do that, then she has to accept that he is going to [censored] OW for the rest of the M. And then, when the boys go to college, maybe he'll divorce BS, maybe he won't.

This handwringing about "oh, the poor kids" is ridiculous.

She is teaching the boys that women are, in fact, nothing more than "life support systems for vaginas" who deserve no respect. Both WS and BS are teaching the kids how it is acceptable for a man to treat his W. So, BS and WS are dooming the kids to the same kind of failed relationship that they now have.

Ouch!!!

Jimmy, I am doing the best I can.

I fully intend to find out what is going on and be done with this. Wouldn't it be stupid to separate from him NOW without all the facts?

I am TRYING to get a backbone...... after all these years of not having one, I can't just turn it around on a dime in a couple of days.

I do NOT intend for my kids to repeat this cycle. I intend to find a loving, caring, supportive relationship (be it with WS or not) that my kids will have as an example as they grow up. If I don't find that, then I will show them by example that one can be happy on his/her own.

Don't give up on me yet!

Ironically, part of the reason that I have stayed so long is because my parents provided a great example of marriage and family. (They just celebrated 40 years of marriage last summer.) I have believed - probably to a fault- that it can work out regardless of hard times. That is what I learned from my family. That is part of the reason why, when looking at these things in bits and pieces, I have been able to rationalize them as OK in my mind.

I have NO experience with divorce. No one in my extended family has been divorced. I only have a few friends who are divorced. It is very foreign to me. That is part of the reason that I have kept fighting.

4 years ago (and since then) I was so off balance as an idividual that I did not think I could handle life without WH. But, I have changed. I feel like, for whatever reason, my eyes have opened over this weekend and I can FINALLY see what is going on. And, I will fight for something better for my children and myself.

Willing, you've got the backbone. The fact that you're trying to find out for sure what you're facing tells us that. Don't worry about it. No one is giving up on you. We'll be here to support you.

What's the latest on the tracking device? Have you considered Owl's suggestion that your trusted friend (or better yet, trusted friends, plural) help you do a little surveillance and tracing? Also, I recommend you read lostherlove68’s thread. He’s found out a ton of information on his WS just by putting a small, voice operated tape recorder in his WS’s car.

Willing,

I can understand your reasoning for wanting to stay put for the moment rather than Plan B, he leaves or you leave. You still do not have any concrete evidence that your husband is having an affair. I must admit I believe he is. However, he could have traded the addiction of an affair for the addiction of gambling. Heplays poker Friday and Sunday nights. He will tell you about his Sunday location and buddies but not Friday. What is his reason. Communication seems to be a real problem for you both.

There are many questions I would like to ask :

- Does your husband play for money and if so, is it large amounts of money. Are you savvy of your financial affairs. Is he driving you into debt?

- Your husband comes into your bed for sex in the mornings. What do you do when you have the need? Have you discussed this with him

- How old are you, your husband and your children.

- How long was your husbands affair and how did you find out

If you decide to stay put, your reason is because you want to gather evidence. You cannot do this if you put him on alert. I would be acting as normal for the next week, give him his nightly kiss on the forehead and ILY. I would actually try and kiss him on the lips and see how that goes. If he pulls away, do not say anything just take note.

In the meantime, you need to be preparing yourself for some major snooping and observation such as:

- Compare his behaviour on Friday nights to Sunday nights. Does he groom himself differently. Does he come home Sunday nights smelling of smoke but not on Fridays. His Friday night clothes smell of perfume. What time does he come home Friday as compared to Sunday. Does he drink both nights. Are you awake when he comes home. What is he like when he returns? Does he shower immediately on his return on Friday but not Sunday.

- If there is OW, they would be exchanging gifts. Has he been telling you that he buys himself new shirts or toiletries. They would be giving each other birthday cards, christmas cards, anniversary cards etc. They would be somewhere in the house. Look for them. That is how I found out my husband. Look every where particularly in the room where he sleeps, under the mattress etc. Look through every cupboard in the house. Do one cupboard at a time. Look inside books.

- Check his credit card for any female gifts he may have bought. You can request this from archives for the past say 2 years.

The other suggestions made by other posters, such as having a friend tail him or using some device. This is a must. I do not believe you will find anything this Friday.

Good luck, Innocence

Innocence-lost:

- Does your husband play for money and if so, is it large amounts of money. Are you savvy of your financial affairs. Is he driving you into debt?

I am the financial person in our family, so I account for everything. On Sunday nights, they play tournaments for $5.00 each. On Friday nights, he takes $30.00. He calls that ‘his money’. If he wins anything, I never see it. If he loses, I figure he has not lost much.

- Your husband comes into your bed for sex in the mornings. What do you do when you have the need? Have you discussed this with him

Honestly, I have been so frustrated with this situation that SF has been far from my mind. One of my top needs is affection and I am definitely starving for that. But, even when I ask WH for a hug, he does not oblige. I quit asking because it hurts to be rejected.

- How old are you, your husband and your children.

Me: 36 WH: 39 OS: 9 YS: 5

- How long was your husbands affair and how did you find out

I believe that my husbands affair started somewhere in June-August 2001. I found out when he told me about it on May 26, 2002. He told me because he wanted to leave and he did. But, he came back two hours later. NC supposedly came about in 10/2002. Everyone in both of our families knows about it. My family, to which I am very close, knows that it is a struggle. His family chooses to believe that everything is fine by just ignoring the situation.

I agree with you -to many years and you just can not walk away. Take your time it will come out -pray to god for the help you need. Almost tow yrs I had knew my WH was having an A. One day I was on my computer and read my horiscope -don't believe them but like to read. It said what you are looking for is right under your nose. That afternoon his email account had an update and guess what I found his e-mails. Oh boy. When you do find something be ready it will blow you away.

I ordered a GPS today and I am going to stop on my way home from work and get a digital voice recorder. I decided that I will put it (the voice recorder) in my own car for a day or two to make sure that I know how to work it and so I know what to expect when I listen to it. Hopefully, that will help me settle on the best place to hide it in his car, too.

I am afraid that when I find something, I will freak out. But, I do think I will find something, so I am trying to brace myself.

OK - I got the voice recorder and have figured out how to work it. I don't think I will put it in WH's car tomorrow, though. Maybe tomorrow night. I think when I will hear something is when he is on his way to school in the mornings - that is when I think he might be talking on the phone. I don't know why, but I suspect that he may have a phone that I don't know about it. No signs of it - just a gut feeling.

I also got confirmation that GPS is on the way. (Good thing I intercepted that information and deleted it all quickly!)

I still waver and start to lose my resolve sometimes. We all had a nice evening at home tonight and I just wish it would stay that way. But, I do KNOW what I have to do and I will not be able to rest until I know the truth. So, I persevere.

I was shaking and burning inside when buying the recorder, but I did it. Small thing to be proud of, but for some reason I am. I feel like I am starting to take some sort of control of my own destiny (finally).

Good job. Be prepared that you might find something, but don't worry too much about it. When I got proof, I was RELIEVED. Otherwise I would have thought I was going insane.

Don't lose your resolve, Willing. You have to know to save your self-respect. Your suspicions will eat you alive if you don't go through with this and find out. It's the not knowing, the fear there might be something out there that is debilitating. It drains you. Once you know for sure, there may be pain but it’ll be a much cleaner pain than letting things go on this way, and it will go away eventually.

Taking control of your life is a good feeling and it feeds upon itself. The better you feel, the better you WILL feel. Stay with it, lady.

Willing,
I am pleased to hear that you bought a voice activated recorder. Make sure you securely it well when you put it in your husbands car.
I am slighlty confused. I thought your husbands car was locked and you had no key. so, how are you going to get into his car.

Innocence_lost

Innocence-lost:

WH does keep his car locked and I do not have a key. But, he does leave his keys around the house sometimes and I also know where he keeps a spare door clicker in case he locks himself out. I can get in there to put the recorder in.

I tried using it in my car throughout the day. I can't find a good place to put it - I keep picking up lots of white noise and fuzz and I can barely hear conversations. Is that the best I can expect?

Hi Waiting,
I did the same thing. I rode around with it in my car...trying different things...with the radio on..talking on my cell...whispering...etc. I put it in the seat pocket behind the passenger seat. It was very slim and fit way down in the pocket. When he was driving I picked up some road noise and could even hear him shifting. That night she joined him in the car and they sat in a parking lot talking...and kissing...I got it all.

Good Luck...I'm sorry you have to go through all this...again.

That seems to be the best place that I can find, too - the pocket behind one of the seats. The recorder that I got is very small, too.

Just curious, CF2...... were you able to hear their conversation clearly? I think what I will get is WH on the phone while he is driving and I don't know if I will be able to understand what he is saying.

What he said on the phone was clear because he was talking over road noise and radio...no need to muffle your voice when you are alone in the car. I used headphones to listen the speaker on the recorder sounded more fuzzie. Some area I had to listen to several times...a few words were just lost. But all and all I got a VERY clear picture of what was going on.

If the recorder is noise activated it can also give an idea of how far he's going. 5 minutes from point A to point B.

Is it a digital recorder? Otherwise audible click might be heard at the end of the tape.

Dear WTW:
I can't believe that I found you again, old friend.

I have not been reading the forum for a long time. And I never usually read in GQII. Something tonight told me to go on the MB forum and when I didn't know anybody in Recovery anymore, I just happened to come here and find you. What a strange coincidence.

I just spend a long time reading the whole thread. I am amazed how much you have changed in the past years. You have grown as a person. It is admirable how you are able to assess your situation now and come up with a good plan.

Dear WTW...I am saddened so much by the description of your daily interactions with your H. You wrote in an earlier post that the rejections hurt you the most. Let's step back for a moment and look at the whole picture. He doesn't tell you ILY, he sleeps in another room, he has mechanical SF with you, he spends two nights a week away from you, he keeps the names of his poker friends a secret...WTW I am sorry to tell you again what you already know. You have created a marriage that is daily "normal life" for you, but to everyone else (and to yourself as well, if you look closely) it is a farce. It is a terrible tragedy. He behaves completely loveless. You wrote before, that you realize that he is staying only for the kids, not for you. This realization hurts, but look at the positive it may mean for you: You have suffered through four years of rejection and failed trying. What is so bad about the alternative to separate from him? He is not meeting your needs- no affection, no admiration, nothing. he is only making your life sad and unhappy. You wrote before that you have become a generally happy person now...if you leave him that will only improve. You will be free from this daily struggle.

Gather your evidence. You are doing a great job at getting the data together with the help of our undercover MB spy team. Knowledge is power.

Something lead me to your thread tonight. I don't know anything about spy technology, but I think I may be able to help you in another way. Long time ago I tried to back you up, to make you stronger. I like you very much, WTW, you are an intelligent, wonderful person. You deserve so much better than this.

I have to go...working tonight. I'll be checking on you. Please know that I am thinking of you and sending you a big old girlfriend hug
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it's digital. I turned te beep feature off, too.

OK - get this. WH just came in here and changed clothes to run an errand. He has to run over to a guy's house that I work with. Anyway, I noticed that he was wearing a pullover that I have never seen before and I made a comment to him about it. I am sure that OW bought it for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> He came up with a quick, "I bought it a Kohl's" - but I know that he does not shop there for himself. In fact, come to think of it, I have noticed that it is wierd how he started buying clothes for the kids there - sounds like maybe he is getting some shopping influence from OW?!?!

Anyway, it was ridiculus what a spectacle he made trying to explain why he had this new pullover. He went through his closet and the laundry looking for the "other one" that his dad gave him a few years ago. Sure, I knew he had that one - but he never liked it enough to buy another. Plus, the new one has a big stripe across the back and I KNOW he hates stripes like that.

I feel sure that it was a Christmas gift from OW. It has infuriated me all over again! How dare he wear that around MY house!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Thanks goodness I had a hair salon appointment this evening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am grey-less again and I have a sassy new cut.... his selfish cr*p is NOT going to ruin my night!!!

You go girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry to hear about your washing machine and how it is just riping up sweaters and things, too bad that red sock got in there and turned everything pink and I didn't realize that really hot water shrinks just about everything except polyester. (OWskankho choice of material).

OOOoops...I must be psychic that didn't happen yet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Liza!!!!! I wondered if you were still here!?!! I have wondered about you over the years and hope to find that you are doing better than I by now. You'll have to give me an update when you get a chance. How are your kids? Like mine - those boys grow, don't they?

I hate, hate, hate to finally realize that this is still going on. It is absurd that it took me this long to figure it out. But, at least now I realize that my life is not over if we don't stay together. Hopefully, it will be better!

Every once in awhile over these past few days, I have almost started to feel sorry for WH. When this is exposed, his life is going to go totally to the cr*pper. The facade that he has created over these years will crash immediately. I cannot save him from it - and, FINALLY, I don't want to. He has to help himself. Only he can do that.

I do get the feeling that WH is on 'alert' so it may take me a little longer to get what I need. I hate it because I want to get this overwith while I still have such strong feelings about it. But, I will try my best to not let my emotions get the best of me so I can do this right. I want no regrets.

Keep in touch IP!

OMG!! The washing machine bit made me laugh out loud!!!! I'll have to remember that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dear WTW:
a lot of things that we two have learned in the past four years, right?

See it this way: your H has decided to reject your offer of sharing your life with him. He prefers to keep you at a distance...it may be guilt, it may be a continued or new A, I don't know. But he is limiting his own happiness and definitely yours.

I am so sorry that I have to find you in this turmoil (but at least I found you, even though you were "hiding" in GQII, what a foreign territory!).

At times, when my H and I hit a rocky spot on that famous recovery road, I too felt, that I might be better off without him. It was a liberating thought. It would end the daily worrying, the rejections, the fights. At those times I thought about a new life on my own, without the sadness, without the baggage of his A. When I thought that way I became more calm. I realized that it was my choice to stay in this M. I didn't have to take this one more day if I didn't want to.

My H has been very good overall. We are sharing our lives and have made great progress. He is still at times withdrawn, and our MC thinks that this is his character that will likely never change. I have to learn to live with it or get a divorce. She also thinks that we truly love each other and have a good foundation.

I totally understand your worry about the current situation with your H. Just last weekend I worried a lot because Saturday it took him 12 hours to finish the same work he did on Sunday in only 6 hours. We have come a long way and now we are dealing much better with my flashbacks or lack of trust. I talked to him Sunday night and said again that another A would be a total dealbreaker for me. He just looked me straight in the eye and said very seriously:"Do you know why I am not having another A - because I am happy with you". He has worked a lot on our M. He has been in IC, MC with me, he is an open book accounting for his time, calling me from work to show me he is really there, he sends me flowers, comes home and greets me with a hug and kiss, sleeps cuddled up to me- tries to make me happy, tries to make me smile. If I want, I can check all EZpass records, phone bills, expenses. Do you see the difference, WTW? I hope I am not hurting you, I just want you to see what recovery can look like.

I think your relationship with your H is in a very bad spot. I always wondered why he would not sleep in your bed. That is very concerning, as well as all the other rejections, lack of affection, picking fights. Think about how he sees himself. I his skewed perception he is the martyr. He gave up OW to stay with his kids. He is refusing to give you a chance to win back his heart, why? He must be very depressed and lonely in his self-made isolation. Now how long can someone endure this? I am not sure that he is actively involved in another A. He may, because this isolation has been going on for 4 years and it may have become too painful for him to live like this.

Short of a miracle I do not see how his state of mind towards you could change after a plan A from your side for so long. This is exactly why Harley recommends a time limit on plan A. There comes a point when you have to move on to protect yourself. What your H has done to you is cruel.

Hugs,

Liza –
I think you hit the nail on the head with this:

Think about how he sees himself. I his skewed perception he is the martyr. He gave up OW to stay with his kids.

I am not convinced that he has actually given up the OW at this point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, but I still believe that in his mind he thinks that he is sacrificing his own happiness somehow for the kids. In reality, he is making that choice for BOTH of us as long as I let this continue.

Don’t get me wrong, I am SCARED. Very scared. If I find out about an A, I will still be devastated by the reality of it regardless of how much I try to prepare for that possibility. If I don’t find an A, my choices somehow seem harder to make because I don’t have a catalyst pushing me over the fence. But, regardless, I know what I have to do. I have reached “that point.” Now, I just need to be patient until I find out what I need to know and then somehow find the resolve to carry through with the hard parts.

One step at a time, right?

My GPS arrives via FedEx today. I am going to put it in his car tomorrow night while at OS’s basketball game. That way I won’t take a chance of him catching me doing it at home. I’ll find out where he goes this weekend. And the next, and the next, if I need to.

It is very sad that it has come to this.

Later - WTW

bwahahahaaaaaaaa You are a devil! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dear WTW:

I thought about you a lot today. I am not convinced that he is having another A. His calm reaction to you when you asked him about the pills would be unusual, if he really used these for s** with OW.

His poker nights are still a dealbreaker in my opinion. With his history of a full blown A he owes you. No secrets, no excuses.

Remember WTW, you are enabling his behavior. Seems familiar to hear this from me, right...:-) He gets away with not telling you where he goes Friday nights because you allow it. He is abusing your plan A. He is disrespectful to you. Stop allowing him to treat you like this.

I think you have to evaluate for yourself, if your M is worth more resuscitation efforts. Can you really love someone who treats you so bad? Or have you just created the false reality for yourself that you love him? Are you continously excusing his behaviors? Isn't your whole M one false reality?

What do you think?

Hugs,

zListen my WH is alwasy cool -they learn that eventually also.

Liza -
I just wrote a huge long message and accidentally deleted it..... Makes me SOOOOO mad! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

There are just so many things that don't add up. When I take them in one at a time, I am able to rationalize them to myself and make his excuses reasonable. But, when I look at the whole picture, I just can't think of anything that explains his behavior except an A. So many things...... he will not sleep with me - no ILY's - turns his head when I offer kisses - no hugs or affection - avoids spending time with me - unexplained "poker games" - new fleece, shoes and watch that I don't know where they came from - I love things ABOUT you, but I don't feel 'that way' about you - I think we should stay together for the kids - the pill things - refuses any counseling or outside help - and the list goes on.

If he is not having an A, then it is clear that he has some other major issues that he needs to deal with before he can have a successful marriage to anyone, you know?

Regarding love...... well, I am not sure that I love him anymore. Not like this, anyway. I am not sure that I even remember what love from a spouse feels like anymore. Sad, huh?

The GPS came today. I put it on my own car so it can track my running around this evening. Tonight, I should be able to download that data to make sure it works and to know what to expect. I'm thinking I will put it on WH's car tomorrow night so it will be there Friday. I am dying to find out where he goes.

All this 'spy stuff' - I hate it. I have been shaking in my skin all afternoon. I am a very open and honest person and doing this goes against everything that seems right to me. It is a test of my courage each time I have to take another step. I am scared - very scared. But, I know that I have to do it, and I will. Like someone said earlier, the continuous not knowing is worse than anything I will find out. Funny thing - I am not afraid of what I might find out - I am afraid becase I feel guilty going behind the back of someone that I care about to check up on them. I feel bad checking up on someone who may have been continuously dishonest with me for over 4 years!!! How psycho is that?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

OK, MB's...... I need some SERIOUS help here....... I am freaking out inside right now........ VERY hurt & angry...... cool as a cucumber on the outside, though.

Remember the pullover from last night? After we all got home tonight, I went and checked the label to see what brand it is. OLD NAVY!!!! He said he bought it a Kohl's - I feel sure that they do not see Old Navy clothes at Kohls!!!

He totally lied to me!!!!

I know that I already knew it inside, but the reality of seeing it in front of me cuts to the bone. I desperately want to ask him how he bought an Old Navy pullover in the wrong size for himself at Kohl's!!

I shouldn't tip my hand, should I? I am in an angry panic on the inside right now...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

When my FWH was in a serious A he would come home with new expensive Tommy Hilfiger Shirts, new shoes, a watch. It is very unlike him to buy himself clothes, shoes etc. without me. Totally out of character.

I think you have more proof for yourself in catching him in this lie. You will get more proof from the GPS. Hopefully, something that you can use for real exposure and a real Dday.

Willing, as much as I know you want to tip your hand and give him a what4!! Please suck it in and let it all come to you, becuase if you let on that you know something is off tier, he will start to cover his tracks and you will be hopping on the selfdoubt train again, loose your train ticket, and beat him at his own game.

I know that feeling...hate that feeling. But now you KNOW the cause of his behavior. If you want to prove it lay low, post here, document in journal. When I was gather evidence I would document in a calendar days he acted weird and I would cross reference with cell phone bills, ATM withdrawls, credit card reciepts. It helped me establish a pattern... you know regular "meeting" nights, locations, time frame. It all just proves what you already know. It confirms its not your imagination. I also use to photographed items that I suspected to be gifts to keep record.

This is war. You are gathering intelligence to make a strategic plan.

Hey whats the noise? "clunk' Is that your washer AGAIN? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

CF2 - you totally make me laugh! Funny thing - when I was holding the pullover I noticed that it was made of polyester and it reminded me of your post about the washer! Soooooooo tempting...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

How long did you have to gather evidence before you could go public? I don't know how long I can endure this...... How will I know when I have enough evidence?

Still biting my tounge really, really hard over here...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

W2W,

This stuff can really make your heart pump and your nerves jump. I would recommend that you find a time and place to listen to the recordings or review the GPS which will allow you to freak out and have a couple of hours to calm down before having to face your H. If your trusted friend has a computer you might want to review the GPS data at your friends place. If you have some privacy at work, that might do also. When you get the real, hard, proof, it's going to shake you hard. Plan to have a place to melt down and some time to recover - so that you can plan a strategic response instead of just reacting.

-AD

Well, the more the reality of it sinks in, the more it hurts. It just feels so "in my face." Seeing the tangible things that OW has probably given him and knowing that he flat out lied to me about it...... I didn't think it would get to me this much. It hurts, bad.

Then, my mind starts to wander deeper - this is not just a discovery that he has lied to me, but a confirmation of some caliber that he is having an A. Even bigger, though, is the sense of confirmation that he has been carrying on this A for the past 4 years, and at the same time allowing me to endure a pain that I never thought I could survive. He did it WILLINGLY!!! That is just a bit more than I can get my thoughts around right now. How can a person be so selfish that they destroy other lives so violently just to satisfy themselves.

I don't know how to feel...... one part of me is hurt. Very, very hurt. Why would he do this to me, to anyone? The other part of me is mad....VERY mad. HOW DARE HE?!?!?! He is stealing my life from me one day at a time and he is doing it on purpose. Who the h*ll does he think he is? It is NOT acceptable!!!!

I will gather evidence and I started a journal noting all the things that happen. If he is bold enough to wear her gifts in my house, then surely he is careless enough that I can gather info quickly. I want him out. Enough is enough.

I keep thinking ahead to how I will expose this. I know that I want him to leave. But, I don't know how to tell him what I know. Any suggestions? It would give me something to focus on when times are rough....... (like now!)

Also, what is enough evidence? I keep wondering how long I am going to have to live like nothing is wrong......

W2W,

On the question of "what is enough evidence", the answer depends on your goals.

If you want to somehow save the marriage, you need enough information to figure out the weaknesses in the affair - and figure out how you can defeat it. You need to keep your survielance in place long term without divulging your sources - so that you can verify any claimed recovery. That's a hard hard road, but there are some people here who have walked that road to success.

If you live in a state where it matters and you want to file for D on the basis of adultry, you need to talk to a lawyer about the evidence you will need in order to prove that. In my state it does matter but not very much, and since my XW agreed to a reasonable settlement, it saved a lot of pain, time and money to divorce "uncontested".

If you need to be able to pursuade others (to expose the A to some folks who might have some influence), you'll have to figure out how much you need for that.

BUT....

You don't have to prove anything to your H.

He knows what he is doing. If you have enough for you to know what he is doing, you don't have to prove it to him. Just tell him you know. You don't have to tell him how you know.

Legal advice might really help ease your mind right now, and I would go see an attorney if I were in your place. I found that it really helped me.

-AD

Well, I put the GPS on his car last night. I am queasy today knowing that I did it. But, the deed is done. I went out this morning while he was in the shower to put the recorder in his car, but I panicked when I realized that there were no pockets on the back of the seats. He drives a Mustang with a standard transmission, so it is very loud. I don’t know that I can find another place to put it where I will be able to pick up any voice activity. Ideas?

I am SO ready to be done with this. Living in my house with him and acting like nothing is wrong is making me sick.

Dear WTW:

how about under the passenger seat? With Velcro?

last night after dinner I ask my H about his opinion on your case. To my surprise he remembered that I had told him about you a few years ago. He said in his opinion your H "is gone" and that you better come to terms with the fact that "he is not coming back". My H always told me, that at the time of his A he felt detached from everything, from me, from the kids, from his life. It seems to him that your H is very much detached from you. He is ONLY staying for the kids. As soon as they turn 18 he'll leave. And then you will have spent the best years of your life in misery. I asked my H if he thinks your H is in an A. He said from the info available it is possible.

The sweater story is strange- even to me. I think you caught him there. Typical male behavior to not check the label. And a stupid lie to claim it is from another store.

Keep your cool. Gather information. Go see an attorney about the divorce laws in your state. I would want to see a good settlement for you in your divorce. Just to make him pay for all this time of hurting you (but that's just me and I can be mean. Very mean when it comes to WHs cheating on my friends, grrrrr [IP looking very mean and dangerous...].

Make an appointment with you IC. You need to unload this stress somewhere. Ask him/her about coping strategies to deal with the results of your data gathering. And most of all talk to your IC about where you are emotionally now. You said you don't love your H anymore (believe me I can understand you there- totally) but you may still have to deal with your feelings about duty...about giving up on your promise to stick with H in "good days and in bad". I think you are very similar to me there. We are honest people, we have given a promise...but now you have to realize that there are circumstances beyond your control. Realize that in this case now it is the right decision to retract your promise.

Hugs,

LOL!! My WH drives a mustang too! (but he had a pocket behind passenger seat.)

How much is enough? You'll know. The OW in my sit. was a family friend...and there were losts of excuses and gray areas. Most of the conversation was one I could have had with my sister...until they started kissing. I retreived the tape at night and listened to it while my WH was asleep. I was up throwing up all night...he left for business trip the next day...so I didn't have to see him for 5 days. The day after he came back the PI I hired followed him to confirm the evidence I gathered. That night I confronted him...he still doesn't know what I have.

Most of the evidence I had gathered was circumstantial. The recording was not admissable because both parties were unaware of recording in private conversation. So I couldn't use it in my state. I hired PI for 3rd party confirmation.

It depends on what you what the evidence for. If you want it to make sure there is no doubt and to expose to stop A is one thing, if you want to use it for legal proceeding its another. Have you talked to a lawyer yet?

I feel like this is all spinning around me so fast...... seriously, last Friday night I was at home trying to think of ways to step up my Plan A and help us recommit to our marriage. An A was the furthest thing from my mind.

Now, just a few days later, I have bought devices to spy on him, I have a tracking device on his car, I have started a journal to document all the inconsistencies (and it is so much longer than I would have expected already), and I have talked to an attorney.

I got a reccomendation for an attorney this morning from a trusted friend with some connections and called to make an appt for a consultation. To my suprise, the attorney got on the phone and spoke with me for about 30 minutes. She answered all my questions, told me what to expect regarding the legal matters, and gave me some advice about what to do. I feel much, much better at this point.

I need to get enough evidence to prove that there is an A. She said that hopefully he will admit that it is going on after seeing what I have and that is the best of all. We'll see. If I get enough to make it undeniable, I think he will cave.

A week ago I was optimistic about what is ahead for me in 2006. Funny thing - I STILL AM! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The anxiety is a bit overwhelming right now, but I will persevere.

IP - you would be proud of me! Can you believe that I am even doing all this? The old WTW would NEVER have made it this far....... keep pushing me, girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As far as IC..... well, mine retired. (The attorney that I consulted 4 years ago passed away unexpectedly at an early age last year, so I had to start over with that, too. Seriously, what luck am I having?!?!?) Anyway, I would be starting from scratch. Right now, I think I will lean on family and friends until I get more things in order. Adding one more thing to my plate is more stressfull than comforting at this point. I need a tactical plan for now (as someone put it earlier)...... the emotional part will follow. I will seek a new IC then.

Willing,
You have put up with suc conditions in your marriage because of your children. I believe you need concrete evidence, not circumstantial. If you decide to divorce, you can explain to your children that you gave their father a second chance and he either never stopped the original affair or had another one. If you dont decide to divorce, this may be the catatyst for change and a better marriage. Either way you need that evidence.

Please be patient. Do not let on you are suspicious as it will drive him further underground.

Have you asked him how much he paid for that pull over?

I have followed your thread and re-lived the trail which led to the discovery of my h s very long term a.

There are a couple of things that have occured to me along the way which no one else has mentioned and that is to look at the situation from your hs perspective. There are signs there that he beginning to realise that he has trapped himself in a no win situation.

The a has been going now long enough for the passion to have worn thin why else would he require a magic pill to boost his sex drive.The regularity of the Friday night rendezvous over the years has become a habit which must, by now, have lost its glamour .

My hs a was similar and lasted for 6 yrs. It had been well and truly enabled by the unwitting betrayed spouses. Reality had been kept at bay.Your description of your hs introspective moods fits my story too.

The other clue is the pull over what does that say about the state of affairs (if you will excuse the expression) .IMO she is marking her territory by taking some control over what he wears,.... the thin end of the wedge.

He must be starting to feel that he has painted himself into a corner. His comfortable career as a fence sitting cake eater will soon be over
In this situation, in my case, my h was very grateful when i found out and rescued him from a situation that he could no longer control..

Just to wish you luck. You are coping magnificently in the circumstances.

Thanks for your comments, Myopia. It helps SO much to hear that I am not the only one who had this going on so long under my nose. I still can't believe that I never knew.

I do not know how WH will react when he finds out that I know what has been going on. But, as for me...... right now salvaging the marriage is not what I want. I feel bad saying that, but that is how I feel. I have poured everything I have into this relationship since finding out about the initial A. To discover that he was still cheating the entire time devastates me. It makes me see him in a different way....... I can find ways that I contributed to the state of our marriage before the initial affair. But, it seems inexcusable and selfish that he has carried on his affair all this time knowing what I was trying to do. He let me go through the gut wrenching process of trying to salvage the marriage by myself - all the while knowing that he had something else on the side. Grrrrrrrr..............

BLAH---BLAH----BLAH----- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

This is me over here puking!

I had to stop home for a few minutes to change clothes and looked in WH's drawer. Lo and behold..... there is a new pair of pajama pants in there! I know that I did not buy them and I know that HE would not have bought them because they are not a brand he likes nor a fabric that he likes. Guess there was a whole outfit from OW......shoes, pants, and pullover.

I took the pants and hid them in another random drawer that he will never look in. I hope he tears the house up looking for them! Maybe he will even ask me if I have ever seen them? Uh, no - I have never seen them! The cleaning lady must have done something with them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Willing,

I believe that hiding his pants may alert him that you are onto him. You do not need this. It will make him more careful and harder to find concrete evidence.

It may be a good idea to return those pants to the draw. Once you have your evidence, you can do as you please.

Good Morning WTW:

I agree with Innocence-lost, put those pants back. Do nothing at this stage to raise suspicions in him. It will make finding evidence so much more difficult.

I am proud of you , old friend. You have grown so much stronger. I see a different woman in you now. A woman who can take charge. You are making decisions and following through. Very good, WTW. I love to see that you have changed. Your journal is containing more evidence by the day, keep it well hidden.

I asked you in my earlier post about your feelings. Don't disregard this in the current turmoil of gathering evidence. YOU are the one who has to live with your decisions for the rest of your life. Are you o.k. retracting your promise to stay with H in "good days and bad" in the current circumstances? You have tried to mend your M for 4 years, are you now at the point to leave? Forget a moment about the evidence. If you had nothing new, wouldn't it be enough to leave just because of the way he treats you every day?

I am asking you these questions because I know that you and I are very alike in the way we think and feel. Right now you are very angry, but once that rage subsides you have to be o.k. with your decisions.

At times others make it easy for us to REACT. If your H has an A now, you rightfully can leave him. But this is a total change from what you wanted -even a week ago- to use Plan A to save the M.

Take some time to think about this...for your own good.

Hugs,

You guys are tight – the pants will go back to his drawer today. I probably subconsciously want him to know that I am on to him, but you are all right – I cannot do anything to tip my hand yet or I won’t be able to get what I need. I hate it, but I can do it.

IP – my feelings……hmmmmmmmmm…….

Well, in all honesty, I have no doubt that I am ready to get out of this marriage. Finding an A would make it easier for me to take action. But, in all sincerity, in my mind I am ready for something better regardless of an A or not. I do feel like I have lived up to my vows and have done everything that I can to make this work. I feel sad that WH cannot do the same. But, I cannot change him and sacrificing my own happiness is pointless.

My IC always told me that I would ‘know’ when I was ready to leave. It took something like the events of this week for me to admit it, but the reality is that I have ‘known’ for awhile now that I am ready. I just didn’t have the guts to admit it. This has stirred my courage to do what I know is right in my heart.

Tonight is the night……. wonder if I will find anything? I am not sure when I will get a change to retrieve the GPS and get the info - hopefully sometime over the weekend. Until then, I wait and try to act normal. It is hard, though. I know if I find something I will want to blow up, but I also know that I can’t let on that I know until the time is right.
Grrrrrrrrrrr……..

I am going crazy today – the anxiety is killing me. My heart is pounding, my insides are shaking, I can’t concentrate or even sit still. I swore I was never going to let him do this to me again, yet here I am. I can’t believe it has affected me so much again.

The pants are back in his drawer. Everything is as it should be – ‘normal.’ But, still, I envision every little thing around me as a sign that something is amiss. I had two hangup phone calls today at work and I managed to convince myself that he had found the GPS and was coming here to work to get me. I know that sounds totally crazy. I am sure that I get hangup calls every day and just don’t pay attention. And, seriously, if he found it and called me I doubt that he would just hang up! I guess that is an indication of just how on edge I am. I wish I had a “chill pill.” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

time to take deep breaths -relax. Think of yourself in a nice quiet place. Ok just relax. It maybe the excitement of having your proof. Or just finding out who this person is. If he wears his new outfit out tonight tell him how good he looks. If you have a camera take a pic of his new look. I know gag - but it would help for later. New clothes ect. Does he have new colgne? Mine did 3 bottles and he hates colgne. Alwasy sais those type musk he has trouble breathing when he smells them. I hate them -yet he bought them for me. Yea -they make me gag. So pay attention but be charming. OK. How do you find the info of where he is going on the GPS? Can you track him on computer while he is driving?

He's gone......... to 'play poker' is all I know. I will have to retrieve the GPS from his car sometime after he gets home and transfer the data to the computer and then I will know where he actually went tonight. He usually comes home between 1-2 am. I am not sure if I will go out and get it once I know he is asleep, or if I will wait until the morning.

The kids and I are home tonight and we just had pizza delivered. I ate some, but it just didn't have any taste. I am sure that is just from the anxiety. I know that there is nothing I can do tonight, and I have some comfort being home with my children. Getting through work today was hard - I just didn't realize that I had built up so much anxiety over the week. Maybe it is just the realization that this might actually be happening to me again is slowly sinking in.

Strange thing, though. The first time I went through this I cried nonstop. This time, I have not shed a single tear - not one. I still feel hurt, betrayed, angry, and stupid. But not really sad. I guess I realize by now that I am not really losing anything.

<<<willing>>>

Hang in there, I am in awe of you and how calm you are, you are doing great! I am taking notes as I think we me and WH, it is just a matter of time. My WH's lives in NY now, so I think it would be some one new, but I'm on the alert for someone new.

I believe that you taking the advice of those on this forum and your own common sense makes soo much sense and will help you as a person in the long haul. I will send a prayer your way tonight, try to get some sleep.

Willing,

My thoughts are with you. Be careful, you do not want your husband getting up in the middle of the night and catching you. I know you are anxious and want to know but please be patient and wisely choose the time to retrieve the system and view the data.

my prayers are with you

my mind has been thinking lots about this over the last few days. one thing that keeps coming to my mind is what if the address you find has a woman and a man's name attached to it? maybe the woman's husband goes out on fri nites too? you don't know who he goes to play poker with so this makes it hard to know anything for sure when you get the actual info from the tracking device today. i am wondering if you should say something to your husband like after you get the info and if you can't detect who it is like"i'd like to at least know who you are with on poker nite in case there is an er at home" or something like that? wondering what others think ?

i was told about my h's affair by ow's husband. i left town supposedly because my grandma was sick and husband had no idea i knew. i played around w/his mind while i was gone when he would call. i asked questions similar to the one above so as for him to know i was on to something and he ended up confessing.

not sure if this would help you in your case.....just a thought.

best wishes. god bless you. keep your calmness it's what's helping you pull this off.

His not willing to spend time with you -- his neglect -- is disregard that is in your face. Think about addressing that.
Cherished

Naw - no need to worry. Once you have an address, you can then next Friday, order pizza while parked out in front of the place, on the condition that the delivery person tells you if there's a crows of guys there, or just a man and a woman... (cheap private detective - the cost of a pizza and a tip). Then you have real info. But you have to find the place for the pizza to be delivered.

I have not gone out to get the GPS yet. Don't want to take any unnecessary risk. WH has to go to a funeral out of town later this afternoon (I did confirm that thru an obituarty!), so I will get it before he leaves and I can look at it while he is gone. The kids will not be around this afternoon, either, so I will have some alone time.

I suspect that this is the same OW from 4 years ago. I know where she lives (about 30 minutes from here) so if that is what the GPS shows, he is caught. If that is not the place he went, I will have to do some more work.

Anyway, for now, all is well. I'll let you know what I find later today.

Cherished - you are SO right. Either way, I am done with this. I will not stand being treated like this. But, I definately want to know what has been going on so I make informed choices. Make sense?

Willingtowait2,
I understand. It was just terrible trying to figure out if my H was having an affair. One of his co-workers saw me driving around a parking garage at his work. I went to her house a couple of times. I'd call her phone and then his phone and generally would reach both of them about 1:10. IT PROVED NOTHING. I read what you are saying about how if you see he drove about 30 miles then you are caught.

Look, I was so deeply hurt by the fact that he had admitted to a lunch with her on October 24, 2001, that it didn't phase me that he broke my arm, literally broke my arm, on December 17, 2001.

What I have come to realize is that the abuse and the infidelity both come from the same source, which is lack of care. He didn't care about me. Look at what your husband is saying to you. He wants to stay for the kids. That's what he is trying to do, make do with as limited contact with you as possible so he can fulfill his duties as a father.

I feel like I was in your shoes four years ago and wish I had addressed the issue of neglect rather than infidelity. This putting a GPS in the car is going to drive you crazy. You won't know, truly know, unless he is caught in the act. But you do know, only too well, that he isn't spending time with you.

Cherished

PS One hurtful thing my H said to me after the affair was exposed was "You ignored me." Hardly. What I did was tolerate neglect. Think about it. What I see you doing is what I did. I waited. I hoped he would change. The person who has to change is YOU. STOP PUTTING UP WITH NEGLECT.

HE IS SOOOOOOOOO BUSTED!!!!!

I don't think it has really sunk in yet - I am sure it will. But, I can see on the map that he left here and drove straight to her house last night. No doubt. Absolutely no doubt.

What do I do now? I am getting a little panicky..... do I move ahead with telling my family what I know and get ready to expose him soon? Or, should I wait one more weekend and have somone get photos of him going there? What to do?

willingtowait2,

I have never posted to you but I have been following your story. I would pack his bags while he is in the funeral and when he comes home he can move to her house for good. Start your healing and your new life ASAP. Don't waste any more of your life with such a man. He does not deserve you or to be in your life any longer. GET RID OF HIM!

ww, calm down here. You have waited this long, why not wait a week longer and do this perfectly right? Do it in a way that proves your case beyond any doubt so there is no wiggle room. I vote for waiting a week in order to get some pictures. That way there can be no doubt.

Then once you have that, you lower the boom on him and give him an option to end the affair immediately with a no contact letter, leave his job and start working on the marriage. If he won't do those things, then you expose his affair and make his life ******.

What you do now depends on what you want.

If you want a marriage, tell him you want a marriage. That means time alone for the two of you.

The OW is just a distraction or he would have left you long ago. What you want is a husband, not a person who exists in your same house. Tell him that's what you want.

At this point, you exposed several years ago. I'd just leave it alone. Tell him you need to spend time with him and build a good relationship or you want to separate. Don't make OW the reason why you are divorcing. My guess is that he left clues (like clothes) to get you upset so that you do divorce him. Let his unwillingness to be a husband to you be the reason why you divorce, not his stupid dalliances with another woman on Friday nights.

Think about it. Don't do anything today. You're too emotional.
Cherished

That is, IF you want to stay in the marriage. If you don't, then I still suggest you get a picture next week to use as evidence in a divorce.

Congratulations, Willing...not for having found out something painful, but for having the guts to have pressed on when you really wanted to pull back. I admire you for that.

May I summarize? You correct things where I get it wrong.

1. Now you have hard evidence your husband is cheating on you. He has detached from you by (a) refusing to sleep in your bed, (b) allowing kisses only on the cheek/forehead, (c) having SF only on his terms and schedule, (d) he says he’s only staying for the kids, (e-z) you fill in the blank.

2. It’s been 4 years and he has never committed to the relationship. Plan A is out the window, if I’ve been reading you correctly. To your credit, you went far beyond the 6 months SH recommends. Fatigue shut your Plan A down at the 2-year point but I can’t see how that reflects poorly on you.

3. Unless you are willing to continue to accept this half-life you’ve been living until your children are grown, SOMETHING has to change. From the way you’ve written about him, it’s hard to believe that something will be your husband.

**********

Seems to me, you have to decide if you want to move to Plan B, and be preparing for Plan D if that fails. Alternately, you may decide to go directly to Plan D. I think there are few out here that would even think of faulting you for that.

What you do next is see an attorney ASAP (a little military lingo there, meaning As Soon As Possible…and it means exactly what it says.). You have children to protect, as well as yourself. I believe you’ve said you live in Arkansas. I don’t have a clue how documented adultery affects a divorce. Here in Texas, it can radically affect the property distribution in the final decree and it has a subliminal effect, I’m sure, on the judge. A 4-year deception would have even more impact.

What you have right now as hard evidence might not stand up in court. Check with your attorney. What would be awfully hard-hitting in court is a nice 8X10 of your husband and the other woman engaged in a public display of affection (kissing, hugging, etc.). Going in her front door as if he owned the place would be a second choice, but still valuable. If you can wait (I know the strain is going to be tremendous), it would be great to have a nice picture to show the judge. As Melody said, it’s been 4 years. What’s another week?

My advice would be, now that you know exactly where he is going, have a friend help you out by snapping a high-quality picture of him at her house next Friday. If you can hire a PI, his/her work next Friday might be all you ever need.

A thought: it might be interesting to know where your husband spends ALL of his time. If he has the opportunity to spend time alone elsewhere (at home, for instance), it might be interesting to see if he has any visitors wherever he is.

Whatever you decide, Willing, we’re here to support you. Good luck in everything you do.

I very emotional.......not crying, just anxious, confused, and mad. VERY MAD!!

I have worked sssssoooooo hard over the past several years trying to make this marriage work. I have given this man every little part of me unconditionally. And THIS is what I get?!?!? I want SO bad to get him out today. I am thru with this and the thought of a new life without it is what makes me happy. I used to worry about what a breakup would do to our kids..... now I see it differently. I feel like honesty is better for them than a life like this. I can be a much better mother for them without the turmoil that this man continues to put me through.

I don't know how I am going to play nice and live this way for another week or two. But, I guess I need to get my money in another account and start figuring out what $ we owe, and things like that. It is all so overwhelming to me at this point.

About the marriage, right now I do not want to save it. I don't feel any love for WH - the damage that he has done is just too much for me. I feel bad - I know I am supposed to want to save my marriage. But, I tried. I really, really tried. I am not sure I can get over the fact that he has continued to be dishonest with me over these past 4 years.

I don't know if I should confront him or just go ahead and file for divorce and let him get served with papers. I also need to let my family know what is going on as I need their help and support. Should I go ahead and let them know now, or wait? I am dying having to keep this to myself and pretend that everything is just normal around everyone......

For right now, make preparations but don't let him in on the fact that you know.

Remember what I said that my H said he had an affair because "you ignored me"? Because you were willing to wait, you accepted neglect and he may have thought that you were OK with a marriage in which he slept in another room and was there only for the kids.

Cherished

you need to get legal advise asap. Take some money out of the bank as soon as you can.

Longhorn -
You hit everything right on the mark. I don't think that he is going to change. I already gave him that chance and it does not appear that he even tried. His dad cheated throughout every marraige that he had and it looks like WH is destined to do the same. I will not stay around for it.

I did talk to an attorney this week. Basically, in Arkansas, it doesn't look good for him that he is having an affair, but it doesn't really entitle him to anything less. She told me that basically the best thing is to get enough evidence to make him admit to the affair. At this point, he cannot dispute it based on what I have. But, I am not sure that the GPS report that I have would be admissable in court. I probably need to get a photo or something. Anyway, what she told me is to try and get thim to admit to it and record that conversation. I will have to expose what I know to get that.

I think I need to make an appt to go see her this week and start the filing process. I need to tell my parents, though, because I need to borrow some of the $$ for the retainer from them. She is a high $ attorney, but she also came very highly reccomended and I liked her - she is aggressive and will get the best settlement for me.

So, sounds like I need to keep WH in the dark for another week or so and get some photos. Should I go ahead and see my attorney and start the paperwork process? Should I tell my parents? (We are very close and they will be devastated by the news....... but they are an invaluable support for me.)

Have to take YS to his basketball game right now. I'll bee back later.

Cherished......

Don't forget.... the conditions in my marriage were not like this before the initial A. I thought we had a great marriage back then and that is why I fought so hard. The neglect has only come about since the initial - apparently ongoing - affair.

He KNOWS I want more - I have made that very clear. He just keeps telling me to wait and that things will change. I now think that he is just stringing me along so he can stay near the kids. That is not enough for me.

Good. Let him know that is not good enough for you -- as of today. Whatever he said, I would suspect that he interpreted your willingness to wait for things to change as acceptance. I figured out a long time ago -- like March 2002 -- that I was confusing forgiveness with tolerance. I just didn't know how to forgive without tolerating.

As for your situation, I can appreciate how bad it must be. I had neglect for years before an affair, but I didn't have affair -- neglect -- affair.

Cherished

Willing, it's good that you've seen an attorney and that she's a bulldog type. It's nice to have such a lawyer in your corner when you need one. Why don't you ask your attorney whether there is any advantage (custody issue, continued possession of the home, etc) you could protect by filing quickly? I assume that’s what you mean by “starting the paperwork…”

The rule of thumb in any divorce is to turn all legal matters over to your attorney and, in your case, let loose the hounds of war! Whew! I'm being awfully dramatic today, aren’t I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But you get the picture. You’ll be paying good money to your lawyer; let her earn it.

Sure, tell your parents. So long as your parents wouldn’t be adversely affected (if one of them has heart problems, etc.), why not?

Now, if they will have contact with your husband before next Friday, you’ll need to exact a promise from them they will not act any different around him until you say otherwise or he’ll know something is up. (In fact, you don’t want to upset his normal routine by doing/saying anything that will tend to drive him underground, as it were.) If they can’t keep a straight face around him, perhaps excuses could be made for them not coming into contact with him for the next few days.

When you confront, be sure and have that tiny, voice activated tape recorder secreted just under the edge of the sofa (or wherever). That'll provide you with the proof of his confession your attorney would like. Even if he won't confess, his words are going to be worth recording for posterity. Some of what he might say could be as good as a confession too.

If you got a good recorder, you’ll be surprised how sensitive the mic is. It’ll pick up darn near anything in a normal sized room. Some of them, while I’m on this, have a small red light that comes on when they are in record mode. A little piece of black electrician’s tape over that and no one will ever see anything flashing in the corner of their eye.

Hang in there, lady. Our thoughts are with you.

i am sorry, but i don't see the logic of getting pictures etc. infidelity is not something that determines custody.

if it were me, i'd have every piece of ****** packed and in the garbage for his return. let him feel hardship and pain.

telling family for support is one thing, however make it very clear that you are the one who will be making the decisions and that you need their love and support right now.

i am sorry that this has happened to you. and will be praying for your peace.

Willing,

I am somewhat confused. If you knew where OW lived, why didnt you drive past her house on a Friday night and see if your husbands car was parked out there.

Also, is the OW single. She has no husband, so your husband can just go straight to her home.

On DD day, my husband told me that on a subconscious level, he wanted me to find out and to stop the affair. He did not know how to stop it himself . He was too addicted. He thanked me that I had snooped and found the evidence. He believes he was careless in leaving the letters and gifts in an easy place to find, so that I would find out about it and put a stop to it.

If it was that easy to find your husband out, just going to the OW house on a Friday night, maybe your husband has been waiting for you to put a stop to it for long time.

I would not tell my parents yet. I told my parents and told them not to speak to my husband as I wanted to confront him first. They did not listen to me and went ahead and spoke to him. They thought they were acting in my best interest.
.

WW, it sounds like you have a good plan, I would move forward and try to stay as calm as possible. Your emotions are your biggest enemy right now, so please try and keep them in check. You don't want to allow your emotions to give you away.

Agree that you should wait to tell your parents. Wait until you have a picture, if you can get one, and then bust it open. Also, in a weeks time you will be calmed down enough to face this somewhat rationally. It is really in your best interst right now to NOT do anything and especially not give into your emotions.

I am sorry this has happened, but am relieved that you now have the truth. It makes me sick that you were kept in this marriage based on a LIE all these years. Sort of like a PET on a leash. With the facts, you can make informed decisions about your life for a change.

willing, I posted on this thread at it's beginning. I wanted to check on you and so just read the last several pages. First off, I am so sorry. I've posted here several times something our MC told H after d-day which applies to your H also. He told him that having an A was a terrible thing that he did to me. However, the cruelest thing was making me think I was going crazy for 9 months. Your H has been doing this to you for 4 years, and after knowing what the first d-day did to you. I personally would like to meet him at the door and slap the crap out of him.

As sorry as I am, I am also happy for you. Happy because you now know the truth. After d-day I couldn't eat, sleep, or function properly. And yet that was a million times better than how I felt during H's A. How you describe your H's treatment of you is exactly the way my H treated me.

I also am so proud of you for your amazing snooping abilities. I was an awful snooper. I remember when I found OW's love letters and copied them for evidence. I was shaking in my boots. I can't imagine installing a tracking device.

My one piece of advice is this. If there is even a remote chance that you might want your yucky H back, make him earn his way back. Take absolutely nothing less than absolute groveling committment and effort on his part. Then YOU can decide if you even want him. Sending you a great big hug! CV

He may have thought he could just call and see how she was doing and it took back off from there. It probably started back up around the time he started sleeping in the other room. But who knows.

Do you think he just still wanted the both of you or to stay only for the kids? Was the addiction too strong? Do you both meet some of his needs so is he just a cake eater? I don't expect answers...just pondering.

I am sorry you have to go through this. It will be interesting to find out what he has to say for himself once presented with the irrefutable evidence.

I'm curious about how much the GPS cost. You are one of the first ones here that I've heard about that used one. It sure beats driving all over town, like I did for 6 months.

Dear friend:

I am thinking of you. I am sorry that you had to find this. I know how long four years are.
You are right in the plans you are making now. It was heartless and cruel of your H to continue his A for so long. I don't think you have a chance to repair this M. Much more important: if it was me, I WOULDN'T want to repair anything. I'd be done with this man- for good.

I'll check on you again later. I'm having house guests this weekend.
Hugs,

I am in awe of all the support from everyone. Makes me feel not so alone in all of this. One minute I think I know exactly what I want to do....... the next minute I am secind guessing myself.

Funny thing..... I just returned from YS's basketball game. Many of you understand how hyper-sensitive you become after something like this. I could barely concentrate during the game - I was just looking at people. How couples treated each other, how single parents seemed to be OK, just random things like that. It is strange to look at my own life and know that it is going to be different soon. I am OK with that - I am just starting to worry about how I am going to get my kids through it. Tough stuff.

After the game, I drove over to my parents house. I decided that if God wanted me to tell them now, they would be home. They weren't. So, I guess it wasn't time. Sounds like many of you agree.

I don't know if the A has been going on all 4 years or it it stopped and restarted. However, I suspect it never stopped. He never seemed to want to try and salvage our marriage, never moved back into our bedroom, never agreed to go to counseling. Nothing. He obviously doesn't feel strongly enough for her to give up life with his kids, and doesn't feel strongly enough for me to give her up. I suspect when his affair with her becomes the reason he loses everything, that their relationship will eventually come to an end. I will NOT be waiting. Been there, done that, moving on.

Innocence - Yes, I do know where she lives. It is about a 30 minute drive out of town from here. I have gone out there on a few occassions to see if he was there and never found his car. I can tell from the GPS data that he is either parking somewhere else in the neighborhood or in her garage. It is very clear where he is, though. If I weren't trying so hard to trust him, I would have caught onto this a long time ago. I know, I know - I am a complete idiot for not finding this out earlier. But, I can't dwell on that now. I have to move ahead. I've done the best I can.

Believer, I paid $250.00 for the GPS on ebay and $25.00 for 2 day shipping. It is very, very easy to use. It is just a small black box that sticks under the bumper by magnet. It shows everything. Probably cheaper than a PI, and less risky than doing it yourself since it is hands off. I'll admit, I have been sick worrying that he would find it, but in reality I don't think he ever would. It is just my nature to think of the worst possible scenario - and it goes against everything that I believe in to spy on someone. In this case, though, I don't believe I had any other choice.

I have lots to do this weekend. Some photo clients are getting anxious for their pictures, so I have plenty to keep me busy. I guess I also need to start gathering bills and checking balances in bank accounts. I want to get everything in order and go ahead and move half of the $ into my own account. I can't stand to think that I am paying for half ov everything he spends this week!!! I am not sure how to do it, though, without him noticing anything. I'll have to think about that.

Should I tell him what I know face to face and ask him to leave? Should I tell him that he will be served with divorce papers on xxx day? Or, should I say nothing to him, change the locks one day when he leaves, and have him served with papers that day? That would be quite a wake up call? Honestly, I don't think I am brave enough to go that way - the really callous way - but part of me wants to. It pales in comparison to how he has treated me over these past 4 years.

2bwhole -
Based on what my attorney said, you are correct. The affair does not have much affect on custody. But, the more proof I have, the better my overall case will be.

I know - having a pattern of two weekends that he goes to see her on Friday night - plus maybe even a photo - would make a better case. But, right now, I don't know how I am going to keep this a secret and live with this b**[censored] for another week or two!!!

More importantly, how do I prepare to tell my kids that mom and dad are getting a divorce? THAT I dread.

Longhorn -
Bought one of those recorders this week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My attorney told me the same thing - record the conversation where I expose. That will be the best evidence I can get.

I NEVER thought I would be going through this. NEVER.

Hang on to that GPS. I might want to buy it when you are done. I've thought for a long time that it would be so much easier to catch the cheaters with one. I made myself crazy driving all over town trying to prove WH was having an affair. What a nightmare!!!!

I think your best bet is to move half the money into your account, and then calmly confront him with the truth.

You CAN support yourself and your children, right?

Sorry to intrude - I usually just lurk.

If it was me I would have to have 2 plans in place. i would hope I could wait a week and do everything I wanted and have it all it place, but I don't think I could hold it together. I barely held it togethr in the 2 hours I had to wait between when I found out & WH got home. So maybe think about what you will do if you can't stand the stress, or if you get sick just looking at him when he gets home.

are you sure of where he went today, even? or if OW may be with him? Why would you not attend a funeral with your H even if it is a coworker or someone you did not know personally?

Also, is OW married? Once this comes out, prepare for any complacations that may cause (and that could get really complacated).

OW is supposedly either separated or divorced. That was 4 years ago. I do know that she lives by herself.

The funeral is for a childhood friend that I never knew. It is out of town - about an hour north of here in the city where WH grew up. I did find the obituary, so I believe that is where he went. Plus he took OS along to drop him off for a visit with Grandma. I stayed here with YS since he had a basketball game today.

Yes, I can support myself and kids. Not the same lifestyle that we have now, but we'll be fine. I am the primary income in our family. Probably another reason that WH has stayed. To be fair, though, he is a teacher and has more time to spend with the kids. That is more valuable than $$. Too bad he is throwing that away.

I think beenthere has a good idea. Develop a couple of plans, then you have some choices.

I forget, does OW have any kids? Is she working?

OW is a teacher at the same school as WH. She does not have any kids. I think she is quite a bit younger that WH and I.

It will be a good dose of reality for them to have more together than just the fun stuff. When he leaves his dirty clothes all over her house, spends all her $$, yells expicatives at her, and farts all the time...... well, I bet things won't be so rosy then.

He won't have me to come back to, though. Too late for that. I will not take leftovers.

Are you dead set against doing a Plan B?

He never seemed to want to try and salvage our marriage, never moved back into our bedroom, never agreed to go to counseling. Nothing. He obviously doesn't feel strongly enough for her to give up life with his kids, and doesn't feel strongly enough for me to give her up.

Waiting,
Isn't this the dilemma all people involved in affairs have? They have given up on their spouse and justify a secret second life. Consider dealing with this guy as a person who has neglected you and that's it. Let him know you want a marriage.
Cherished

W2W,

I'm glad you got the GPS. I found what I needed the first time I used it too. There are lots of wise ones here to advise you, but I might as well pitch in.

I've always prefered to
1) keep my options open and
2) work the odds.

Because you dont' share a bedroom, you've probably got a better chance of holding it in for a few days than some other people.

I agree that getting the confrontation recorded is an excellent way to get proof for legal reasons (if you need it). You might even use two recorders so that if one doesn't get a good recording or he finds one of them, you have a backup. You may need a few acting lessons, LOL.

You may not have thought of this, but since you are the primary breadwinner, you might have to pay him alimony. In many states, proof of an A greatly reduces the odds that the judge will order the betrayed spouse to pay alimony.

What I would try is - first if you can wait, do that - to have the time to gather more evidence. Second, when you confront him, don't tell him all you've got. If you can basicly jump down his throat with "You were at OW's house Friday night!!!" - and carefully dodge the questions about how you know, you might get him into confession mode (with audio recording). I would hold back on the GPS info to see if you can get him to confess without it. That way, you will still be able to your GPS on him later if you need to. If you do tell him about the GPS, never show him the unit or tell him what kind it is, or tell him how it works or where it is installed. If the gets his hands on it, he will probably smash it.

Make sure you back up the GPS data somewhere outside of your house - at a trusted friends place - or in the hands of your lawyer.

He could go bezerk and smash/steal your entire computer.

In general, get all of your evidence backed up off site.

If there are any special savings funds (college funds for the kids, for example), make sure you lock them down.

If there are any other liquidatable assets, figure out a way to prevent him from selling them (or sell them yourself).

If you can effectively password your computer, you might do that - if there is any chance he'll come snooping your email (trail of ebay stuff) and history (MB trail).

If you could hold on for a few months, you need to get him out of YS's room - since he may go for custody of YS based on a claim of some special relationship with him. Him being home more than you will work against you on custody. If he wins custody, you will have to pay him child support.

Of course, OW will not want the kids around, so he'll be in a tight spot if he tries for custody.

You are doing great! Knowledge is power! Hang in there.

-AD

Let the dust settle before making any permanent decisions. You don't know how you will feel in a few days.

I know it will be difficult to hold the information to yourself, I know I couldn't do that very well. Sure wish I had a GPS back then.

You are right. All BS's deal with the same issues that I am facing. I am no different from any of the rest of you. I hate that I am not willing to put more into salvaging this relationship by doing Plan B, but the reality is that I am not. My love bank is empty - in fact, it is in the red. I am horrified that WS has continued to do the most hurtful thing possible to me, knowing full well what it did to me through the past 4 years. He watched the pain last time - he knows how horrible it was.

I let myself trust this man again, after the horrible mess he made of our lives. The fact that he took that trust and continued to use it to betray me.....well, I cannot imagine getting over it a second time. Maybe I will feel differently down the road, and I am open to that, but right now I cannot imagine a happy life with him.

As my lawyer told me, a divorce is not final until it is final. Just because I file does not mean it is over. And, honestly, I don't think that WH will even believe that I am serious unless I take very drastic measures.

Plus, I have to find a way to get him out of the house. He has always contended that if we split, I should be the one to leave. I WILL NOT under these circumstances. My attorney told me that the only way that I can get him to leave (if he refuses on his own) is to file for divorce and petiton for the house in a temporary hearing. If that is what I have to do, I'll do it. I have lost 4 years of my life and gone through horrible emotional turmoil - I will not lose my home, too.

I feel for you W2W,

Yes, too many of us know the pain already. You will be strong enough. Now your strength will build. That's the way it was for me.

-AD

I did talk to my attorney about custody issues since that is my primary concern at this point. WH and I had always talked about joint custody, so that is what he will be expecting. However, on attorney's advice, I will seek primary physical custody of the kids. It could get messy. It is a bit of a hurdle to overcome the fact that he has more time available to spend with the kids, but not insurmountable according to her. I work standard 8-5 hours, and so she said that as long as I do not work alot of overtime during this, I should be OK. Honestly, I am willing to share time with the kids - I want him to pick them up from school, keep them in the summer, and have them on days off from school. But, I also think that it is in their best interest to have one parent as primary. I intend that to be me.

Seriously, do you think that a grown man will admit to a judge that he moved out of his wife's bedroom into his son's bedroom because he felt unfaithful to his mistress as a reason that he should get custody? I chuckle at how he will spin that one.....

I have had a very emotionally draining day. WH is home and I cannot even stand to look at him. He just grosses me out. I have no idea how I will survive another week, or two, or three knowing what he is doing.

My OS came in to kiss me goodnight a few minutes ago. He is so sweet and innocent. My heart is breaking knowing what is ahead for him. He is so intent on 'our family' and he will be totally crushed. I don't begin to know what to do to try and get him through this. If I thought what I went through was tough, I suspect it will be even worse trying to help my sons get through this. Another reason that I hate WH tonight.

I feel sorry for the kids. I know my daughter has already lost so much - and her life is now on a much lower trajectory than it would have been if her family had stayed together.

You ought to read
The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce

It's a painful read about what happens to kids, but .... maybe there are a few hints in it that would help you protect them.

-AD

I wouldn't chuckle if I were you. His lawyer will advise him to say that the poor child cannot sleep without his father in the room and that anything less than full-time custody with the father would traumatize the child. And on top of that he might claim that you drove him out of the bedroom. While going for full custody, he might also claim that it would traumatize the children to move and since they need to be with their father, he needs to get the house too. He certainly won't suggest that it had anything to do with his relationship with another woman.

He might not do all that, but you need to be prepared for the worst.

-AD

I am terrified about hurting my kids - that is what has kept me here for so long.

Should the ramifications of divorce for my kids be enough to keep me in this relationship? I am losing my will to push ahead thinking and reading about the effects of divorce on children.....

WHY, WHY, WHY am I having to deal with this?!?!?! Why would GOD allow this to happen to my kids?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

W2W,

All you can do is inform yourself and do the best you can for them. I don't think you can endure this forever. I couldn't either. You can hold off on reading that book - but maybe you can give it to your H after you file.

-AD

AD -

Are you trying to scare the cr*p out of me? I am not the wrongdooer here.......

Are you suggesting that I should suck it up and stay in this if I want to keep my kids?

I was 18 - almost to the day- when my parents finally divorced. Honestly, I wish they had done it earlier.

We were all tired of living the life of being miserable all day every day.

Kids pick up on so much more than we ever give them credit for. It may truly be a relief to them to get out of the tension

I am not saying go file on Monday, but I want you to know that you and your children can survive this.

ww, can I make a suggestion? Don't make any decisions until next week. You are, understandably, distraught and upset and will be able to think more clearly when you are rested. You don't have to make a decision about anything tonight. Or tomorrow.

No one is going to blame you if you decide to divorce. You would be fully within your rights, and above reproach if you did. That doesn't mean you shouldn't carefully consider all options - when you are RESTED and not so emotionally torn up.

I will say this, though, that you have much more to deal with here than do most folks that come here. This is really the SECOND D-day for you coupled with at least FOUR YEARS of lies and subterfuge. The long term lying has compounded the blow.

In fact, even Harley might suggest that you move on:

Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment from before you decide your plan of action:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

You don't have to make a decision tonight, WW. Please get some rest.

No No NO!

I'm not doing anything like that!! I'm so sorry that I gave you that impression.

All I'm saying is that you need to play this like a chess game - look ahead as far as you can and make the move that gives you get best possibilites in the future keeping in mind your H's likely moves.

Take hold of the reigns of power and control this situation. Know him better than he knows you. Anticipate his every possible reaction.

Honestly I think you should D him ASAP, with the caveat that you want to win - win primary custody - win distrubution of assets - win by avoiding having to pay alimony. Crush him and leave him penniless and emptynested.

And... when you face the post-D situation, of course you'll be figuring out how best to lead your children forward in life.


-AD

OK - you guys are right. My head hurts and my stomach is queasy. I want to just go crawl in bed with OS and hold him - but I won't. He needs his rest as much as I do and if I went in there he would sense that something is wrong. I'll stay in my own room and hug the dog. At least I am not alone.

I'm going to take one of my sleeping pills and get some rest. I teach Sunday School in the morning and those kids have a way of perking me up every week. I need to spend all day tomorrow editing wedding photos (ironic, huh?) for a bride who is picking up her photos this week. It will help to have something to do during the day anyway. I just hope I am able to concentrate! On Monday, I can decide what to do next. I think I will probably talk to my parents - my dad is my rock when it comes to tough decisions. I'll probably also go ahead and make an appt with my attorney and I'll get my things in order at home.

It seriously might be two to three weeks before I can expose to WH and end this nightmare (and begin another).

Thanks SO much for all the support. It is truly overwhelming. I would not have made it this far without all of you.

I WILL survive.

{{{{{Willing}}}}} My heart goes out to you! You are living in a nightmare right now, but you will wake up from it. You're H has held all the power in your R until now. You are gaining your own power back and now have the truth to help you make choices for yourself.

I know you don't want to hurt your children with a D. However, your H chose this path you are on. He broke the M vows, and apparently has done nothing in the past 4 yrs to restore those vows. You wrote:

"Should the ramifications of divorce for my kids be enough to keep me in this relationship? I am losing my will to push ahead thinking and reading about the effects of divorce on children....."

I would say no, you should not stay in this M for the children. If staying in this M sucks the life and joy out of you how will that help your children? If you end up Ding your H, if you can keep you children as safe as possible, they will learn courage, strength, and love from you.

Just curious! Does the school H and OW work at know of their A. I would think most schools would not condone an affair. But now-a-days, who knows? CV

You know, you have an ace in the hole doncha?

You ace is this
If he won't leave, contact OW and BEG her to take him into her home .... that would make their affair a lot more stressful.

and

would make your getting primary custody a near slam-dunk.

I was the one who recommended GPS on page 1 of this thread .... and I am asking you for a favor.

Would you begin a new thread just describing GPS ... a thread we could bump up for newbies in the future .... sort of a reference thread for GPS. What it cost you, how it was set up, how it worked, etc.

I don't think we have such a thread specifically discussing GPS.

Thanks

Good idea Pep. We need to get the skinny on the GPS. Going hi-tech like wtw did would sure save a lot of time and worry.

When he goes next Friday, get a PI to take some photos and be your witness. Hugs to you. You are not having a good life right now, but really, anything would be better than being treated like this. If he really loved his kids he would dump the OW. Enough...look yourself in the mirror and know you did all you could. He cannot say the same. He is defective...not you. Take a look at faithinme's posts. It will inspire you.

Willing, I agree with new jersey. If you can afford it, hire a PI. You don't need the additional trauma of trying to take pictures with everything else you are going through. HUGS! CV

Now, this is just me ....

before you tip your hand to your WH that he is sooooo busted and a can of whoopass is about to descend upon him ...

withdraw as much cash as you can

and put it somewhere

like with your parents

or in a safety deposit box

because you may need it for a rainy day

and you ought to beat HIM to it !!!!

If you want to, every day, go to the ATM and withdraw whatever the limit is .... and you "spend" it .... by placing it into your parents' hands

right now

your parents need to be on-board ... and instructed they need to run silent until WH is busted

Here is my fantasy :

and it may work too !!!!!

Once your parents and your best friend are all "on board"

and once you have collected all your evidence

and you have stockpiled cash

invite all of them to your house

confront WH in front of witnesses

because he is going to attack you verbally

and you'll need witnesses

make sure the kids are elsewhere

Ask a trusted family to invite your kids over for that nite....

I think this needs to be more of an intervention than a standard "You're busted"

that way

YOU are well protected by witnesses

D-Day #2 (letting WH see you have proof) and exposure to friends and family

simultaneously

this is MY opinion....

because this affair is not going to end without drastic measures

and I do mean drastic

4 YEARS

He is not going to just stop his affair if you do this in private .... asking for an "NC letter"

I'd bet on the affair continuing for another 4 years if you D-Day him just the 2 of you

This is what I suggest and would do myslef. This Friday when he goes to her house have someone babysit your sons. Pack all WH clothes and go to OW home. With recorder in your pocket -knock on her door. Go inside hand them the suitcases and say OK now I know everything and ask them what they have to say. Bingo everything on tape. You can go home alone and get rid of him right then. Give him the name of your attorney and have him served at her house.

This just makes me so mad. Oh yes advise on GPS would be greatly appreciated. I am so sorry for you, but I would start packing his stuff during this week. I just want to hit this guy -what an idiot. I would want nothing to do with someone like him ever.

Things have gone so far for so long .... any confrontation needs witnesses .... the tape recorder is OK .... but she needs PROTECTION of live bodies .... right there witnesses ... and more than one !!!

I feel convinced of this.

He may be so shocked and so angry he becomes physical.

so bring other people with her -they can carry the suitcases.

EGG ZAK LEE

Realtor*

I actually think your idea is brilliant

that way

he is already

OUT of the family home

and any broken dishes belong to OW

tread carefully...

You DO NOT want to a thing that jeopardizes your custody stand...

restraining orders
trespassing
etc...

answering domestic issue calls can be the most unpredictable and volatile calls to answer.....and they can not and must not take any of them lightly...so the truth is they really don't CARE who is right...
the want it de-escalated...

sorry but confronting at her place..jeopardizes you...

perhaps at a public place...
have all his stuff packed and ready to be shoved in his car or whatever....
take him
invite her...
then witnesses as well....

but not at the OP house...

ARK

Hi wtw,

I just read the past several pages since I posted to you last.Sorry things have not improved.But it's really no suprise given what you have been telling us.



This is good.I am glad you will tell your parents,they can be supportive and getting all your ducks in a row for the inevitable outcome is also good planning.I also agree with Pep: get as much money in your hands as you can.Don't even regret it for a second.After all that has been going on,you and the kids deserve whatever you can get.I emptied one account once and took all the money when things were looking very ugly.

In all honesty,if I were you the marriage would be over.Four years and now this is not something anyone should have to endure yet again but that is your choice.For some,there just is no going back.There has been too much pain,dishonesty and betrayal to keep on trying.Do what is right for YOU.

Regarding the children.I can really sympathize with how hard that issue is.Seeing the sad,broken faces on my girls when I told them what was going on(on their level) was truly horrifying and extremely upsetting.At that moment,I wanted to destroy my WH and OW like he did me and our family and hurting our kids for his "happiness" and the homewrecking trash he was with.

But,I will tell you what helped us: *I* stayed the same. The stability of one parent can mean the world to children who are scared and confused in a mess like this.I was there,I supported them,I hugged them and kissed them,we had many open conversations,I tried to stay rational and not overly emotional.If they saw me,"Mommy" losing it big time then they can feel really scared and abandoned.Try to keep it together if/when you have to explain things.The normalcy of the rest of their lives will be important.Then you can cope with the fact that there *may be a divorce and Dad will not be living with them anymore,etc.

Stay Strong!

We are here for you.

O

It is overwhelming to come back here today and see so much support. I wish I could give every one of you a huge hug.

Last night was awful. I could not sleep - just like the first D-Day. I feel like vomiting all the time. I am having a very, very, very hard time tolerating WH. I seriously don't know how long I can keep from telling him. Last night I made up an excuse to go to the store so I could get away. He just makes me sick.

On the outside, I am holding up fine. No tears, still. Kids think life is as usual. WH thinks I am mad about something, so I am trying to curtail my actions to not put him on further alert. It is unbelievably hard. Knowing that he thinks he is getting away with it is part of what is making me want to throw up. I want so bad for him to know that I am not going to take it anymore!!!! By keeping silent, I feel like I am willingly LETTING him continue to do this to me.

I do know this, the confrontation will be on MY terms. It will be at MY house, where I control who is there and what happens. I will not be alone, as I am afraid of what he might l do. He has a bad temper and I am a little concerned that he could get violent.

I will gladly start another thread about the GPS. I still can't believe that I did it - it is SO out of character for me. But, it was money very well spent and it was easy to do. It leaves no question in my mind about what is going on. It will probably be a bit later in the day before I get myself together enough to do it, but I promise that I will. Anything I can do to help someone else out of this same situation is something I am glad to contribute.

We want to give you a hug for bravery and intelligence! It does us proud to see a BS act so bravely. I am sorry this has happened, but happy that you got the truth about your own life.

I suggest that you take your kids and go somewhere for the day. I don't think you are going to be able to keep it all in.

Please don't do anything until you can get your money safe. WS's are notoriously mean when confronted. Don't be surprised if he gives you no money, and doesn't care if your kids starve.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> 2 funny..... now u have done good with the GPS and recorder....now practice your reverse babble and when you conforont him you will be able to keep your cool. Have a back up plan to help you ( a 3rd party, pinching yourself, keep something to help you regain your sanity nearby, twix candy bar, etc.).

U can do this. BTw, have you exposed the teacher at work yet?!?!?! Bad example.

L.

I will say this - I know that God is holding me thru this. After the first D-Day, I was a total wreck both inside and outside. I cried all the time. My kids always wondered why I was so sad. I hated it, but I could not control it.

This time, I am a mess on the inside, but God is holding me tightly together on the outside. My kids will see strength and stability and love from me - nothing else. As of today, they are my world. WH is not part of it anymore. Everything I do is for the three of us - ONLY the three of us. It will hurt them to go thru this now and I will be there to help them. I feel confident that they will be happier for it in the long run.

Can I tell you all again how totally scared I am? What if WH refuses to leave the house? According to my attorney, I will have to live here with him until we get a temporary hearing. That could be 3-6 weeks from the time I file. I don't think I can do that......... but, I have a better case if I stay home and keep the kids here, so I'll do what I have to. What a nightmare this is.

It makes me furious that I am going thru all this turmoil and WH thinks life is just hunky dory!!!! As usual - he makes a colossal mess and I have to dig out of it.

I HATE HIM FOR DOING THIS!!!!!!

Yea but his 'hunky dorriness' is temporary at best.

U are making decisions to protect your family. I know you will survive it. U got guts, lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Have your dad move in with you .... seriously

you need another male around to protect you if WH refuses to leave

My brother is a single guy and he lives in town. I had thought about having him come and stay with me for awhile once I expose just to make sure that I don't get any unexpected visits or anything. I hate to put thim in the middle of this, but I can't do this alone. I learned that last time.

perfect!

and start removing CASH now

not check writing but cash withdrawl

This might be totally inappropriate and maybe my desire to give you a quick fix because I'm feeling your pain. But are you on any kind of AD or anti-anxiety meds? I remember before i knew the truth and was a total mess I talked to my doctor about getting on an AD. She told me if it will help me cope with the crisis to do it. I got on Lexapro which was really fast acting. Life still sucked, but it helped me cope with what I had to do. I also had her prescribe me sleep meds. If I would have thought of anti-anxiety I would have popped those babies too. Funny, because I'm not someone who was all gung ho on ADs before this.

If H ever did this to me again I'd pop whatever SSRI I could get a hold of cause I wouldn't have to worry about SF dysfunction. Anyway, sorry for my bad advise. Can I just please beat the crap out of your loser H? If I do it than ir won't reflect badly on you. Heck, I'll smack OW silly while I'm at it.

People are giving you such great advice. WSs can be nasty and storing up the money is important. At some point I would love to see you call the principle and tell her/him the ****** these 2 [censored] have put you and your family through. CV

Yes - I have a perscription for Lexapro. I had stopped taking it a few months ago, but I started again this week. I also have some sleep meds, and I need to take those, too. I have a stressful job and it is very important that I keep it considering all of this!

I am considering alling my dr. about some anti-anxiety meds for the short term. She helped me thru this the first time and I am sure she will be helpful to me again.

You know....... I never imagined it would be just as bad the second time around. I guess that is because I never thought I would be here again.

They have NO IDEA what they they have done to me and my kids!!! They are getting ready to see a side of me that they (and I) did not know existed. And, they will not like it.

Sad thing is, though, it will probably not hurt nearly as much as what they have done to me.

Keep WH off his guard until you launch the nuke

keep busy
exercise
call a friend

but do NOT fight with WH about anything

make no comments to him other than routine day to day

be emotionally neutral

too sweet, might draw suspicions

if you think he is getting suspicious, mention something off the wall like: "Do you think we could go somewhere with the kids for a week this Easter?"

W2W,
First of all {{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} TO YOU.
I've just caught up on your thread and the worst of my fears seems to be inevitably true.
If you recall, I posted to you very early in this thread about your WH's continued contact with OW. I had read that your MC said it would be alright for continued contact as long as the A was over. That is what made the hairs on the back of neck stand up in the first place.

My very worst fear!!!!!
Your MC was very wrong for saying this would be OK. Dr. H is in complete opposition to this for a very good reason. As others have alluded to, he is a very smart man.
OK, so where do you go from here? Well, I've seen many a post telling you to dump him, etc. etc. That is your very own choice, for sure. Noone would fault you for that decision. It is true for sure, that you do not want this M as it now exists and I would also endorse this!
But the knowledge of your H's ongoing A is making it extremely difficult for you to be in a position to truly make any rational decision right now.
I'm sure I'll get 2x4'd a bit for this, however, your must keep in mind that the preponderance of people who populate this forum are BS's. I truly believe, that as a BS, we often carry a certain amount of residual anger of our very own FWS, that it often becomes very easy to to project this anger at another person's WS. That can be very damaging in light of the fact that this is a as opposed to a divorce forum.
My VHO at this point is to consider all the facets of Plan A including busting up the A and insisting on NC!!!!!
The game is not over. You still have a very real chance of ending this A, but not making the same mistakes you made and accepted the first time around. You still, IMO, have a real chance to actually begin again and salvage this M, if you choose to do so. If you do ultimately choose to try this, at least you will know you that you have done everything possible to save your M and the unhappiness that your children wiil surely have to endure. I'm just saying, IMVHO, there is still a chance. It is obviously your choice. But do not make any decisions at this point, as you are emotionally wrecked and need a chance to reflect as to what you really want.
Take the time to consider exactly what you want and pursue that, with the help of God. Do not make the decision without His guidance and counsel.
All Blessings,
Jerry

wtw,

Just in summary: most longtimers here do not say "dump the bum".There may be a few who do but each case is different.But for you,IMO,going back to this man after all is said and done is like getting on a plane with only one wing after you already have been through a plane crash the first time and made it out alive.YOU have to decide if you want to take that risk.And it is a risk: heart,mind,soul,wellbeing.

There are also those people here who see an indefinite "hope" with every situation even though the obvious is quite apparent.Your WH has done nothing to show you he is being supportive,loving or caring.After 4 years.Just because one is a BS doesn't mean we aren't intelligent and aware of what is going on.Many of us are BS's but long past the severe pain and can see straight and give good,supportive advice based on our own experiences.

In all my years here I haven't seen anyone say, "You need to divorce" but rather try to be supportive in breaking away from perpetual destructive,hurtful and toxic spouses and situations.

This isn't a 2x4 for Jerry but rather a rebuttal to his post.I do agree though that taking time to feel secure in what you want to do is necessary.Make sure you are clear about the decision you make.Proceed accordingly.

Hang in there.YOU are in the drivers seat.

O

Well, I went over and told my parents everything. I didn't want them to be caught by suprise when things happen. They are so supportive of me and we are very close - partly due to my experience with the first A.

Anyway, there is really nothing for them to do but just 'be there' for me right now. After talking with them, I have decided that I am going to go ahead and make the appt with my attorney this week, show her what I have, and get her advice on my next step. That is, provided I am able to keep my mouth shut that long.

I believe that WH has his radar up. I am trying SO hard not to let my emotions get the best of me, but I knwo that he can sense something is wrong. He was suspicious when I left the house this afternoon. He keeps asking me what is wrong. I am doing the best I can to play along like I am just frustrated with the work I am doing today.

I refuse to feel like the one who has something to hide here. If he does catch on to what I know, my plans will not change. I have support in place and can call someone in the event that things blow up before I am ready. Now, I just need to concentrate on getting my things in order and seeing my attorney.

If I have something to focus on, I can get through.

My dad doesn't know it, but I saw his tears. It horrifies me that I had to give my dad news that hurt him so terribly. The hurt from WH's affair extends well past me - I wonder if he will EVER realize how many people he has deeply hurt by his choices?

Hi Ogirl,
I'll take what you said a a 1x1 as opposed to a 2x4 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.
You said;
All I'm saying IMVHO, is it doesn't always have to be this way. There are other options, IF the WS is truly Godly sorrowful. It Happens many times and I don't want W2W to dicount that as a possible senerio.
We, as a community, should not overlook the fact that Her M may still be salvageable at this point. I simply don't want any of us to declare that her M is not salvageable. Miracles, still happen and it seems she needs that, but we cannot judge that at this point in time. To do otherwise would be to inject our somewhat predjudiced opioned that it could not be saved.
I just think it is way beyond our judgement.
W2W, you will know when your heart has been spoken to. It will probably NOT come from us, but a much higher power. I simply wanted to emphasize this point.
All Blessings,
Jerry

I agree with Shinethrough. We don't know what will happen yet. My H had a 4 yr A that had a few false recoveries in there. Then after that A ended, he had another a couple of years after that.

We have a totally different, great marriage today. He is a different man. Miracles can happen. People can change. But had he not...well, we wouldn't be where we are today. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, W2W, get all your ducks in a row as though you are totally willing to move on and leave him. It is great you have the support of your parents.

bump

W2W,

I'll take ShineThrough's words to heart - and actually I was thinking of coming back here and posting in a slightly softer tone.

Only you know when you really are finished. And... if, as you say, your H is a good dad, only you can say what kind of custody/visitation arrangment would work best for your children. In my case, many people here said I should go for full custody, but I didn't think that was in the best interest of my child.

I was able to agree with my XW on what is called in my state an "uncontested" divorce (your state may have something similar). This saved much pain, struggle, time and money - and I think protected our child from needlessly being the focal point of a big battle. I got a visitation schedule I could live with - as well as a reasonable division of property. Lawyers make money on disputes, but if you do decide to D, and can agree on an acceptible custody plan and division of assets it would certainly be easier on all - and cheaper too - than fighting it out with the big legal guns.

And... I was using GPS for more than two months before I actually moved out and got the D in motion.

-AD

((((W2W))))
I've been away from the computer for a couple days...just caught up on your thread. I am so sorry but so glad you got the information. YOU are in the drivers seat...you can see right thru his stories and manipulations. You've been getting lots of great advice. But I'd like to add my support and my 2cents. I'd get more evidence next Friday, by 3rd party confirmation PI w/ photos. Confront him with the knowledge you know A continues and that you want him out...I think the idea of witnesses is good. Then take some time to decide what you want. If he leaves you don't need to rush to D. Give yourself some breathing room.

OMG 4 years of trying and hoping and praying. {{{{W2W}}}}

Time is on your side and now that you know the truth you have control. Knowledge is power. You are stronger than you know. You didn't deserve this.

As most of you know..... the nights are horrible. I felt live I was reliving a nightmare last night. The dreams, the restless sleep, waking up often. Many of you know what it is like.

I actually felt some peace after talking to my parents. It is like I was able to share some of the burden and confirm that I am not going out of my mind.

I really appreciate all the encouragement from both sides of the fence. Right now, my mind is set on seeing my attorney and making steps to file for divorce. I honestly think it will take action that drastic for WH to even take me seriously. After that...... well, I have not thought that far. My only concern past the point of exposure is for my kids.

I am an open-minded person and that will never change. I see the best in people - probably part of what got me to this point. My attorney told me that only about half of the people who file for divorce actually ever finalize it. So, there is room for change. Filing does not mean anything is final. However, at this point, I am not willing to put anything else on the line for this relationship. Maybe after some time away from the relationship and living on my own with my kids, I will change my mind. Maybe not. I can only deal with one thing at a time. I have played with the pistols and lost. Now, the only way to change anything is to bring out the big guns.

Funny thing is........ if any of you knew me, you would be totally floored that I have even done any of this! I am a totally mild-mannered person who is scared of everything. My mom and I actually chuckled today when I reminded her that she had trouble with me when I was in the first grade because I was afraid to tell the teacher that I needed to go to the bathroom. Now look at me......using a GPS to track my cheating husband and consulting an attorney about filing for divorce. Yikes!!!!

You go girl. You have really blossomed through all this.

Have you thought of starting that thread on GPS?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugs. Yes, you have to be strong and hit hard with evidence. He needs to hit rock bottom before he can recover. You need to start divorce IMHO because he thinks he has you controlled and can walk all over you. He must be feeling very smug that he has fooled you, but he is the fool. Talk to that attorney, put some money aside and make sure that when you expose that the school knows about this. They have been carrying on an affair at a ?PUBLIC school. I'd bet kids know. Good luck we are all here for you.

You are doing really great -now just be the actress you are. Smile talk softly and if he asks if anything is wrong just say you nare not feeling weel and going to the doctors this week. Over tired ect. Tummy's been a little off.
Now please tell your attorney about his temper and your fears. Please -tell about him sleeping in other bedroom as well -this may be seen as abuse by the courts. She will be able to help you with this. But be sure you record it all.

WTW,

I am very impressed by your strength. You are an amazing person. Your kids are very lucky to have a great mother like you.

Best of luck and God bless you and your children.
October

WTW, it is amazing what we find out about ourselves when we really realize and see how we've been screwed over. When we finally can see how clearly the line has been crossed. When the love of our children shines through and we know in our gut "enough is enough". I am tearing up for you because of your pain, and I'm applauding you at the very same time for your incredible strength! Sending a big hug! CV

I called my attorney and I have an appt set up with her for Wednesday of this week. One step at a time, right?

I guess tha gives me a reson to keep my mouth shut and my attitude in check for a few more days. Until then, I will do things like move money and gather bills. I also think I need to consider cancelling our joint credit cards, although that will be a big clue that something is up.

Unless say....you lost your wallet...then you HAVE to cancel them!

about your moodiness ... mention to your H that you realize you've been rather moody and you are thinking of going to the Dr to have your hormones checked ... that will both satisfy and confuse him, and he will give you some "space' to be moody

men fear our hormones ya know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Haha - This is getting good. Imagine being in your WH's place and noticing that something seems to be "wrong" with your BS. You have the power now. Stay in control.

Hi Jerry,

Almost didn't see your post, this thread is cruising. No 2x4/1x1 just some healthy debating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not sure what you were quoting? It looks like my sig line.

What *I* am saying is no one can stop another from their actions/choices even if that includes running out to a Lawyer and starting D proceedings.Sure we can all hope there will be that one last chance for each and every one of us but let's be realistic.At the point a spouse is on the D path,the best the S can do IMO is the divorce busting 180 and try to remain calm, non-pressuring and protect themselves and family too.

This is a message board and it's ALL about our own opinions and musings.I was giving my opinion and did remind her she had her own choice to make,as do we all.

Some people have it in them to forgive and take back a WS that cheats on them again and again.I do not subscribe to that idea.Adultery is so extremely painful I cannot fathom staying with a WS that did that to me AGAIN.Of course,there have been other's here who have done that and it was either a tragic mistake or they went on to have a better marriage, for the time being anyway.

But again,let's be realistic.Every person here is giving their own opinion on what is going on.If we have to start "walking around on eggshells" so as not to offend anyone by our thoughts then why bother having this site? I'm sure wtw knows we only want the best for her after all she has been through and will decide for herself what is right.

O

OK- crisis again…………… I need some input.

WH just called me at work a short while ago. He wanted to ‘talk.’ The basic gist of what he said was that he had a major wake-up call at his friends funeral on Saturday. That he has been very unhappy with himself for a while and he wants to change. He wants to become a person that he likes and that people can be proud of. He wants to get back to the way things were with us before all this happened. He wants to go to marriage counseling. Etc.

He also said that he needed to tell me he was sorry for lots of things. He said he has made changes in himself – both internal and external – although when I pressed him for what they were, he would not say. He just told me that I needed to trust him. I told him I couldn’t.

The conversation did not really elicit emotion from me. Just confusion. Here I am – I have finally made a decision and am taking action that I am comfortable with……. Now he makes me doubt that. I personally don’t think that I can get over what he has done for me. But, if he wants to do better, then I feel bad for what a divorce will do to my kids.

Advice here? I could use some.

Either way, I suspect that he knows that I have discovered what has been going on. I am thinking that the confrontation will come anytime……… I really had to bite my tongue in the conversation just now. I don’t think I can do it again.


UPDATE: He just called again to 'invite' me home for lunch today (he is at home with the kids since school is out). Said it is part of making changes. ?!?!?!??

Stick to your plan for now

Track him next Friday

Willing2wait,

I read this entire thread last night and I feel horribly for you. You deserve so much more and I have been praying for you. Your kids will be better off without seeing a disfunctional marriage (ie: sleeping in different rooms, no affection, etc) That is not normal, and you don't want to portray a marriage like this to your children. I know that is #1 hurdle for you, understandably, but don't worry. They will be fine...just make sure you encourage and allow them to see both of you as equally as possible. That is the only thing I hated about my parents getting divorced...my dad fell off the planet.

Regarding this "invite for lunch" thing. Consider this....

He is home, you are at work...
he snoops...sees a journal of yours?
he snoops...sees marriage builders website in the history of the computer you are using to post on here?
he snoops....notices that the PJ pants are moved?
he snoops...sees tissues near your bed (from crying)
he snoops...finds the GPS or recorder??

keep in mind...he is home alone with plenty of time, and he is suspicious of you lately...he could very well have this figured out.

Also, the funeral was saturday. It is now Monday. Why couldn't he have this heart to heart with you on Sunday after church or something?

Keeps your eyes and ears open. Don't let this creep fool you. You are way smarter and wayyyy better than that.

Be neutral

and hold your cards close to your vest

This s*cks. Why make me question my resolve NOW?!?!?!?

It is amazing to me how these active WSs change their tune when they think the gig is up. H began the truth-telling when I think he knew somewhere in his gut I was planning on leaving him.

There are people here WTW that really can advise you much better than I. So take whatever I say with a grain of salt. None of this changes anything except that your H on some level knows you are through with his sh**. He has still treated you like a piece of crap for the past 4 yrs after he devestated you once before. I would stonewall him if you can. Maybe tell him at some point you know you need to talk, but right now you're just not up for it. Ya know, those hormones and all. Continue with your plan. Meet with your lawyer, gather evidence, etc. If in fact he really realizes at some point what a total dumba** he's been, and he doesn't want to lose you or break up his family, and YOU might want him back, let him take all the steps to earn you back. JMVHO! CV

Well, what a coincidence!!!! He gets caught by the GPS, and now decides he wants to make amends and fix the marriage. This guy is slick.

oooooorrrrr.... heh heh heh... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

you could act really sweet, thankful, and happy that he wants to get your marriage back on track....make him call the woman that he is having an affair with...make him tell her that he loves you, that their affair is over and he wants to get his life back on track with his wife. Thennnn...dump his a$$ and he'll be kicked to the curb with no where to go. Maybe wait a little while before kicking him to the curb so that the other woman has enough time to move on and not take him back again.

just a thought....hehe....i hate this man and want him to suffer so bad. so bad. whatever you do...dont take him back. once a cheater always a cheater. Even if he never cheated again, the damage is done...you will always be hurt by his affairs and I guarantee you will have a very hard time ever truely moving forward and trusting him 100%.

Good luck, lots of hugs for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. WTW - If you are reading here, might as well come and join in.

Looking up



not even close to true

LookingUp, what an absolutely deliciously evil little plan. I really kind of like it. I really do appreciate all the FWSs here on MB that I have come to admire. However, I can't stand active, deceiptful WSs. I want to kick Mr. WTW's big butt right to the curb.

Keep your humor WTW! In the days when I was living with my foggy H MB was my command central. I'd go to the generals here for my next move. Some of the same generals are helping you out today. Stay strong! The only one your H has on his battlefield is the fogged out OW. They are both on the dark side. The Force is with you honey! CV

I've never witnessed differently. If I gather correctly, Mr. H had an affair 4 years ago, said it was over, now is back at it.

Sounds to me like he is still a cheater. Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh. In some cases cheaters stop cheating. But IMVHO I tend to think that they are always guilty, even if it was "only" once. I give those who stop cheating a ton of credit. I don't think, however, that there are very many of those people.

The damage is done.

Where did you put the GPS and report?

I have thought about this and consulted my two trusted friends. What I feel like right now is that regardless of what is ahead, WH and I need to separate for awhile.

What I feel like telling him at some point is that I am taking steps to file for Divorce. I will be paying my attorney a retainer fee of $xxx. If he will agree to move out, he can take that $$ and use it to get set up in another place. If he will do that, I will agree to go to a MC with him. No promises for the future.... we'll just take one day at a time. However, if he will not agree to move out, I am going to use the $$ and proceed with filing for divorce and I will be asking to stay in the house. Either way, he needs to go.

I guess his response to that will tell me how serious he is about wanting to work things out.

Thoughts?

I am not sure WHEN this conversation would happen. He is obviously in 'talking' mode right now and must be feeling pretty guilty. I want to tell him that he MUST get everything out on the table or I will walk away. If he doesn't have the guts to admit to me that he has still been having an affair, I guess I have my answer.

he must agree to get IC and in time for MC. I would make sure taht is a given. He is the one who has kept this A going for 4 yrs and decieved you daily about it. He needs to find out what lacks within himself and fix those things. Before MC.

Willing:

Your plan doesn't really fly with MB principles, especially regarding working on the marriage while separated. I'm not saying you have to follow MB, but you are here, right? Do you support the MB principles? If you do, you should maybe read some of the infidelity articles on this site again and plan a and plan b.

I don't really care for the "stick it to him" attitude that some people here are advocating. He is a liar and a cheater but I'm not sure you would feel good about yourself (and with regard to your kids) if you did something rash and later came to regret it.

If he gets another chance, you definitely have to set some ground rules about recovery, accountability, etc.

If he is trying to turn over a new leaf, you will know right away, I'm sure of it. His new behaviors will have to be consistent and frankly, I'm not sure he can do it.

Just don't make any quick decisions.

Em

I would suggest that he speak with a pro-marriage counselor. The best would be telephone counseling with Steve Harley. First alone and then together.

Continue with your plans to DV leaving open the possibility for a complete turn a round.

I don't believe that saying...'once a cheater always a cheater'...or 'a leopard doesn't change his spots'...Men and women aren't leopards. We have all known folks here who have changed...because they were ready and wanted it badly enough.

But, as others have said...this all has to come from within him...you can not do it for him. You should know real remorse and repentance by now.

Time will tell.

Just be cautious wtw.Many of us have been through "false recoveries" before only to find out it was all a sham,their proposed "I have seen the light" statements.Yes it would be great if he really has made some extraordinary change all of a sudden <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> but keep your guard up.See what happens.


O

Let's face it, he knows what he is up to and he knows your behavior has changed. He knows. He isn't sure, but he knows something is up. My advice is to see an attorney still, put money on the side, close joint accounts. As for where he lives, this is tough. He will do whatever he can to keep you both. You know this, you want to push this man off the fence. It is up to you, yes, he could still live there for now, he is in another room after all, but I would continue moving foward with the separation. He would love to keep both of you, remember that. In his mind, he has two lives. He has been having the best of both worlds.

I am very pro marriage and so I tend to be a little soft, but in this case, you need to set boundaries with specific limits...no working with OW, no contact ever, IC and MC. You have lost 4 years here while he had a great time. Only you know your situation, but I think he needs a major time out. Let him know what life would be like without you..a serious plan b. If you love someone, set them free. If he really loves his family, he will fight to keep you. If not, you won't waste time. I believe that this marriage could be saved once he hits bottom and you no longer allow him to get away with it (enable him). Let him meet the consequences of his actions now. He needs to or IMHO your marriage will cycle into this again and he'll contact her again when things quiet down. You need to set the rules. It really is a plan b.

Looking up, stick around, you've got a great deal to learn. It is not so simple. Sometimes they make only one mistake and never do it again.

Call me cynical, but I find it extremely hard to believe that after going to "poker" games every Friday, that he has suddenly "seen the light", 2 days after she got the GPS to catch him.

listen

don't talk

don't share

don't spill your plan

simply listen without comment

if he presses for comment

say:

"Let me have more time to process everything you've said."

and start getting cash out

I agree B which is why it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I don't think he's had some epiphany where he now sees what he is about to lose.I think the jig is up and now he is backpedaling or something went wrong with the homewrecking OW,etc.Who knows.

O

I am 100% onboard with Believer.... remove cash and don't talk recovery with this man

just LISTEN

nothing more

I agree that his behavior is very suspicious. The timing....

-maybe OW forced him into making a choice... maybe he got dumped? maybe he choose you? Could be lots of very reasonable explanation beyond timing of the funeral.

However, NONE OF THEM MATTER. What matters is his actions up til now. What matters are his actions from here on out. I wouldn't really listen to him other than ask him to write down his intentions, and then to check up on his progress on his list. I would also write up a list of your own of conditions you need met for you to consider reconciling the marriage. I would NOT stop the process. I think to stop it now shows that he can talk his way out of a situation. I think that by investing financially $5k now, you would still win by demonstrating you are serious, even if he is not.

And, ask anyone who is divoriced, $5k is cheap compared to the actual cost of being divoriced. It would be easy money to throw away, at the sake of saving the marriage, especially with children involved.

be very careful -this man lied to you before and carried on an A for 4 more yrs without letting you catch on. I would not believe that he all of a sudden saw the light either. Do what Belive and Pep have said - see an attorney.

It has been very surreal this afternoon.......

WH called me while I was on my lunch break. Long conversation, but the gist of it was that he insisted that he is sorry for how he has been living his life and that he wants to change. He started talking at one point about how he does not even have any friends anymore, to which I replied, "What about your poker buddies?" He wavered, I pushed a litter further, and he finally admitted the affair to me. He told me that he ended it yesterday over the phone. I replied that I was sure one phone call would not end a 5 year relationship. Plus, what was he planning to do when he goes back to school tomorrow? He just kept telling me that he was going to change and that he wanted me to trust him. I cannot.

That is about where we are at. I told him that I am not sure that I love him and that I don't know what I want. He is very weepy and desperate. He told me that he took a big risk by telling me about the affair, and I responded by saying that he was already aware that I knew. He actually argued with me - he insists that I did not know!!! Whatever.

I have not told him yet that my parents know all about this, not have I mentioned my appointment with my attorney. The time was not right. He has been trying to call me ever since I got back, but I have not answered his calls. I have a job to concentrate on. I waited 4 years.... he can wait until I get home!

Is there a chance he could be reading here?

I believe mine is reading here and maybe getting help under a name I do not know. If he is GREAT. But if he is reading to find out things and not to get help then OH OH.

Now at his school can they look things up on computers? Would he know your screen name?

Or could someone ele be doing this for him -such as OW? Something I fear.

I wouldn't mind if he did - that way he MIGHT start to have an idea of what I am going thru.

But........... I doubt it.

OK, for what it is worth, I believe him. I think he may have thought that he could stay for the sake of the kids but found out differently. If you are willing to reconcile, consider having a recovery plan which you can see. That means that he spends time alone with you. Harley's program, at base, is very simple: spend 15 hours per week together and never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.
Cherished

www2
almost exactly the way my dday went. i found out b4 he knew i knew and i probed for details. too bad you didn't get it on tape. be sure to put your recorder in your pocket when you get home tonight b4 any discussions.

i totally disagree w/what someone said up above "once a cheater always a cheater" if that were the case, why are any of us here?

if you didn't read surviving an affair, you wouldn't be aware of the totally fog ridden life these wayward spouses have. they live in a dream world, they are clueless. they are not doing this to hurt you, your a bystander in all of this. dearpeggy.com, the author peggy's husband was a professor and had over 15 affairs. my friends husband had a sexual addiction. both are married to this day and working through their problems. if i remember correctly from reading your old posts, you specifically said you stopped trying. i do not blame you. i would not blame you for not trying to reconcile. we can not tell you what to do. you know your heart. your heart does not love right now due to all of this betrayal. if you remember back to what you loved about your h originally and if there is a chance of getting that back would you do it?

you are at plan b stage. study plan b. you have a perfect opportunity to call all the shots. the no contact letter, him leaving his job (because she's still there and that would be contact). if he truly is sorry and some of the fog has lifted, you will know the truth when he says yes or no to the above. if he can't follow the above there are no other options but divorce, plain and simple. you call the shots now sweetie. you are in the drivers seat.

you can turn your marriage back into what it was in the early days. you can save your children from this devistation by giving your h boundaries he must follow. if he does not, it is his fault, not yours.

i am disheartened i have not heard anyone speak of the fog these wh's are in and how anything he did in the past is a result. my h was totally an [censored] while things were going on. he did not sleep in another bedroom, however he would screw her one nite and then me the next. aren't we all talking the same thing here?

go to the recovery board www2 and you will find so many women who are still with their "once a cheater always a cheater" husbands living in very good successful marriages. things can turn around, but this time YOU MUST FOLLOW THROUGH AND CALL THE SHOTS. anything he does not follow through on is reason to call it quits.

put it in writing for him to make it real simple or better yet print out plan b for him. you will know in short order if he can pull through. i have read stories where the h called the ow w/wife on other line and listened to the "no contact" words he says to ow. that's what i would need to hear. and how he never loved her and how he was such a fool so selfish and so confused etc and that his true love is his wife and he is going to make a go of it and to never contact again.

anyway, i wish you all the prayers and blessings at this confusing time. you need to do what's in your heart. you need to know what you want & need from a marriage. if he can commit, it might be worth a try.

hugs from another betrayed spouse who made a 2nd go of marriage to my "once a cheater always a cheater husband" and am pretty much 80% happy in the current place i am in.

From early page of this thread:


Tolerating chronic neglect and disrespect has been your weakness

are we clear?

Now .... your H sees something different .... something not-so-weak ... and he 'says' stuff which he thinks will weaken your resolve

are we clear?

what he 'says' means squat

here is my question to you

Are you willing to remain in a marriage that lacks respect?

spending 15 hours a week together is not going to restore the respect and the care in your marriage

standing up for yourself might!

.... and what does this mean?



has he had more than one affair while married to you?

I think you should listen to 2334pem. She always gives excellent advice.

believer, thanks for the compliment, i can't take credit, dr harley taught me most of what i know. hugs anyway.

Good post 2334pem

Willing, 2334 and Pepper said some things I was trying to express. Heed their words, please.

In addition, I'd like to point out your husband has yet to admit to anything you didn't already know. Lord only knows how he got wind of your awakening, but I doubt very much he had a sudden epiphany. People don't have epiphanies very darned often without something hitting them over the head real hard.

The relevant factors are that you know he’s committed adultery again (or it never stopped), and he knows you know. He wants credit for admitting it, but that won’t fly. His insistence you didn’t know is pure nonsense…babble, if you want to use that word. Here in Texas, we’re inclined to be a little more graphic about it. I won’t say what comes to mind. Asking him how you knew to inquire about his poker buddies should poke a hole in his “I confessed” bubble very quickly. (BTW, have you talked to some of those buddies and would any of them agree to go so far as to testify in family court?)

Anyway, it seems to me he’s scrambling for any kind of moral “high road” before everything comes tumbling down. He’s weepy, desperate, wants to change…but exactly what is it he’s willing to DO? I admit a prejudice here. Words are cheap. It’s action…sustained action…that’s the important thing. After 4 or 5 years of bs’ing you, he’s a changed man?

Willing, you have my support in whatever you decide to do. Keep strong, lady!

WTW,

I agree with Cherished. I believe him. I read somewhere that when an affair is on its way out that the WS tend to be careless and BS find out.

Prior to the installation of the GPS system, you found pills, a new pullover, shoes and PJ's. One of the golden rules after an affair is accountability. Your marriage councillor accepted him working with the OW and sleeping in separate rooms. I do not believe that any MC would say that after an affair, a WS can go out one night a week and not tell their spouse where or who with. When this behaviour started, this was a red flag that something was up.

I know that this is all in the past, but I am just wondering whether he could not break this affair on his own. This is why he was leaving clues along the way, so much so that in the past week, you had a rude awakening.

Funerals do have an affect on you. When you leave this earth, you want to be remembered for the good things you do. At his friends funeral, many people would have gotten up and spoken about what a great husband, father and son this person had been. He would have looked at himself and thought, what sort of pig have I been. I have a great wife, who despite the affair trusts me and look at how I have taken advantage of that.

I am not making any excuse for a 4year on going affair. I have told my husband that if he were to ever cheat again, we would be finished. BUT in the past, I told him that if he were to EVER cheat on me, it would be over, and it is not.

It is very easy to say this is what I would do if I were in that position. The truth of the matter is that until you are in that circumstance you just dont know.

WTW, do not make any decisions. Take it slowly. If you want to give him another chance, he has to win back your heart and trust. You need to be strong and show him that he either makes a complete change with 100% accountability, changes work and sleeps in the same bed or he is out. He needs to treat you with respect and care.

Take care and tread slowly.

Thanks Pep,
You just saved me a lot of typing(which I am not good at)
As I have said before, I always look at the posters' reg date. It often tells volumes.
All blessings,
Jerry

i'm curious, all of us who are not fws's would be a bs correct? did we not all tolerate disprespect? are most of us not in the process of marriage building? didn't we all pretty much start out reconciling w/our ws's?

Hi Octobergirl,
I should have responded sooner but, I do no want to TJ W2W's thread. So I'll try to be brief.
I totally agree with everything you've said so we are not at all at odds.
I simply wanted to point out that there is always hope, even if there doesn't seem to be any. Having hope in the face of all adversity is called faith. It's something I had to cling to daily with all of my heart as I went through my anguise.
W2W, if you read this, know well that you must examine your heart fully. If this is even one ounce of a chance of forgiveness and reconciliation, you must at least consider it. It would not be a case of your WH deserving it, but rather, a case of what your heart can withstand, and God"s best choice for your M.!
Protect yourself and your children, it will now be your WH's burden to earn his way back into this M. If that doesn't happen, then I agree with the majority of posters, it will be time to move on without him. I'm just praying that it will not be the case here.
All of my blessings and prayers,
Jerry

2334pem -yes we all did encounter disrespect and some had verbal abuse.

Dear WTW:

I am sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. I had houseguests over the weekend.

The new developments are troubling, to say the least. See, that is why I asked you earlier: What are your feelings about this? Because you have to live with your decisions and stand up for them. I asked you about your feelings on duty, keeping your vows etc. Once the rage subsides, you are left with your true feelings.

What are your feelings? I am asking you again, WTW.
You are unsure now...because WH reaches out to you NOW. All your resolve is up for grabs. Why? Because you were not sure about your feelings to begin with.

For four years I have been asking you to stand up for yourself. Look at yourself, make a decision and stick with it. Don't waver, don't make it so easy for him.

I have told you not to tolerate H's behavior. Do not allow him to disrespect you. Do not settle on the separate sleeping arrangements. Do not allow him free time with his "poker buddies" (Do you think I would let my H get away with a night out each week, where I do not know where he is? Sorry that right for privacy was lost with his A - FOREVER)

WTW, we -the BSs- are often enabling the As. Because we don't ask. We don't demand. We just tolerate unspeakable obnoxious behaviors.

I think your H reads here. You are a lot like me, you are honest, you can't keep a secret (I can't lie with a straight face, it is not my nature). I think he is trying to get back to the comfortable arrangement of the PAST FOUR YEARS. He didn't give up OW the first time around. He saw your pain and kept lying, kept meeting her for s** EVERY WEEK!

Excuse my asking...what is wrong with this picture?
EVERYTHING. He refused MC, IC, gave you all those rejections not for four weeks, not for four months, but for FOUR years.

WTW, please do not question your resolve. Do not get back together with this man. It is not a second chance you owe him. He has blown chance numbers 1 to 1460 (4 x 365).

He wants to keep you around to be the mother for his kids. Then he wants to get back together with OW. DO NOT ALLOW THIS. He knows about your plans. Be careful.

Hugs,

He never hit bottom the first d day and went undercover for 4 years. The combo of funeral and your changed behavior has scared him. There IS a chance of recovery here. It can happen. Excellent advice above. The plan is up to you. How much can you take? Can you believe him? Maybe plan b...maybe start to date...I do not know him, that makes a difference. Oh..follow your head...take your heart into consideration...think of the kids and don't forget the behavior of the past 4 years. All things are possible in love, but how do you know he is for real?

w2w,

A big part of this will be sorting out your emotions.

How did you feel when your H was all weepy and apoligetic? Sorry for him like you would be sorry for a wounded animal? or not really any deep feelings?

Angry that he has messed up your plans now that you finally made them?

Or did your heart still break for him? I know when my H finally got it and broke down, I hurt for him as much as I hurt for me. That was how i knew it was worth trying again.

I don't pretend to know God's mind, but serch your feelings for God's hand is this, too. If your H is trying to manipulate you, it will come out. You will feel it. Or maybe your H has finally looked in the mirror and really seen the person looking back for the first time in a long time.

Be strong! Don't settle for crumbs! I will keep you in my prayers.

No, I did not tolerate chronic disrespect . Did you?

W2W,

I hope things get better for you soon.

I just want to point out your H’s adultery is way into the Long Term Affair (LTA) zone. These are horses of a different color. Shoot, they are a different species altogether.

This is not a new A. It is an old A that never ended. It just went further underground when you found out. Further, IMO, your H has been emotionally abusive toward you for the entire time since your first D-Day.

MB methods do not apply in a straightforward manner to LTAs, nor to abusive situations. It’s the same thing as trying to naively apply MB when there are addictions or serious mental issues the WS must first deal with. LTAs have to be dealt with differently. For one thing, the underlying attachment is so strong withdrawal can go on for the rest of the WS’ life. In any case, attachment lays buried in the ashes like a hot ember and may re-ignite years and years later if strong measures are not taken.

Cut to the chase here. You need to talk to the MB counseling center. The Harleys will help you optimize all this planning and scheming. You may simply be told to run for your life. Or, you may be given a high probability of success plan. In either case, they can help make it a lot less stressful on you in both the short and the long runs.

LTAs are not discussed much in any book or on the main MB site. To me it’s like the STD vs SF EN disconnect Lemonman often points out. It’s a gross omission in the books and on this site. So, you need to talk to one of the Harleys to get the best advice in your peculiar, but not unique, situation.

Oh, one last thing - your H sleeping in your DS5 bedroom for years now is a big read flag IMO. There is something unhealthy about that, far and above the problems in your M. I do not believe any of the reasons he gives you for it. And even if any were true he is still creating future issues for your son.

With prayers,

another name for having sex outside of marriage could be called "chronic disrespect" (answer to question above)

www2 none of us have any business telling you to stay or go, all we can do is give you advice that worked for each of us. you must not let those who think they know best for you make your mind up for you. as i and many have said, you know your heart. if you are a woman of faith, which i assume you are due to your words about teaching sunday school, you more than likely know how many times god says we are to forgive.... 70x7. does not mean we need to be a doormat, but in the end people of faith forgive. whether or not you forward w/or without h will be determined by your willingness to forgive and enforce the rules this time and your h's ability to follow through this time. as you already know, in the end, gods plans will prevail, not ours.

please take care of yourself. take time to think things through. as many have said nothing needs to be solved overnite....this has taken 4 yrs to accumulate, it's not going to be settled overnite. sending hugs and love to your heart

i agree, calling dr harley would be in both your best interests, if he can't help you he will point you elsewhere.

best wishes again.

What's that song, Maggie...

My guess is that is how your WH is feeling. He's past being enthralled by OW and just wants it done. You have the opportunity to tell him -- fresh start -- I'm not waiting one more second -- spend 15 hours per week alone with me making sure both of us are happy together -- and let the past, the sordid rotting past, fade.

I gave an ultimatum, and your thread showed me what would have happened had I not. The advantage that the prolonged affair has is that your H may well no longer have the enchanted view of his lover; mine still may have. She comforted me... yeah, because I was upset that he broke my arm. How sick is that? It took four years for me to get over hysteria and come up with a concrete condition for living together. I can't say it's gold, but it sure is better than going amateur PI.

Address the disregard that is in your face. Neglect.

Cherished

Cherished, I know that the 15 hours per week thing is your hill to die on... But there were many other hills that were worth dying on in this relationship with your husband.

I don't give a rip if my husband spends 15 hours with me - he cares more that I spend time with him - it's a matter of the one who has the most to lose by the relationship going south - and the tables turned for me 10 years ago this coming April, when my hill to die on became loud and clear to him; I would no longer tolerate disrespect; I moved out, lived in a shelter, then came home and moved him into the basement, with a minister enforcing the separation to keep me safe. I filled out the paper work for a divorce; I served him with a notice to attend a parents divorcing class required... he woke up. He hasn't had control of the relationship since. And he's happy with that.

I'm hoping very much that Waiting finds a hill to die on that is much more substantial than 15 hours per week.

Another thing -

You really should get tested for STD's. Sorry for the ugly reminder...

Em

(((W2W)))
Its great he is admitting to something but it doesn't change anything. Stick to your plan. Install your boundaries. Talk is cheap. He needs to prove by his actions, he has spent 4 years of your life trying to decieve you. You don't need to make long term decisions right away. You don't have to accept what he is saying and forgive him...you don't have to kick him to the curb if you don't want to. Right now you are in control. Take your time. and take care.

WTW,
Best of luck to you tonight. Hope you are doing well.....

{{{{{{{WTW}}}}}}}}

Daisy

KaylaAndy,
Yes, 15 hours is my hill to die on. Basically, Harley's program boils down to 15 hours and POJA. I don't want a marriage where I'm in control. I want a marriage where both of us are happy. It seems to me that willingtowait took the same path that I did starting in 1998, which was to wait -- to tolerate neglect and wait for him to change. It seems that she has a golden opportunity today, despite the devastation, to entertain the possibility that her WH is now just so sick and tired of the life he has been leading and the woman he has been carrying on an affair with that he'd like to make a clean break and become the H she has wanted all along. The key is for her no longer to be willing to wait.

Cherished

Abuse is more potent a destroyer than neglect. You survived the abuse. Now he's going for the slow kill. You gave him the cues to do this - 15 hours is not going to stop him from going back to the abuse.

There is a more effective way than "needing" 15 hours a week attention from your husband - any kind of attention... you'll tolerate abusive attention. You'll tolerate neglectful attention, as long as that attention adds up to 15 hours per week. That's just so wrong!

Tom's never going to come around this way. But he might if you no longer wanted or needed his negative attention. That you required kindness and courtship, or he could move out right now.

But that would take conflict - and CAs usually get negative attention.

Cherished - I cringe when you give others this 15 hours a week advice, based on what you are tolerating in your 15 hours... Please re-think that there are rewards for stepping into conflict that you will not experience with this method you are using to finally kill your marriage.

Waiting - deal with the abuse. The disrespect. Before you require his time.

KaylaAndy,

I hear you about my giving advice without this approach actually working yet for me. I did try the approach of focusing on only having enjoyable time together, and we never went anywhere with the amount of time. I have gone to a therapist over 100 times since the affair began, the fourth time being the morning he broke my arm. She had told me not to call Sophia's husband. She basically said, "Find out what track he is on. Don't try to get him on the right track. Then decide what you are going to do."

After one entire year of trying to make our time together enjoyable with not much time together, he did something so heartless that I decided I had to change what I was doing --an ultimatum, or divorce. When I went back to the therapist last week, she told me she thought that the ultimatum was appropriate. Her view all along is that Tom has wanted to remain married but in a marriage of convenience and that the 15 hour demand eliminates that option. Time will tell if we can make the time together enjoyable.

Now, with regard to willingtowait, I feel so much for her because, from the time he cracked my skull on 1/3/98 until he was openly talking about lunching with this woman and she was saying things like that sleeping with her husband was better because of him and I started down the path of angry outbursts, demands that he not have contact with her, and trying to catch him in an affair, I was doing what willingtowait seems to have been doing. I was doing my best to make our marriage work, accepting disregard ("Leave me alone"), and getting nowhere.

Willingtowait, I have so, so much empathy for you because you did what you thought was best and your husband took advantage of your willingness to wait and trust to carry on an affair with little interference. Whatever you do, know that this time will be a time that you will look back on as about the worst if not the worst of your life and that, whatever the future holds, divorce or not, it will be better.

Cherished

Thanks to everyone for your prayers. I know that they are helping me to deal with this.

In short, WH and I talked for hours last night. He seems genuinely ready to try and put things back together, but I told him that at this point, his words don’t mean anything to me. I don’t know that I have any feelings left to build upon. I told him that I have an attorney and was planning to file for divorce this week. He asked me not to – said he wants to try MC first. He said he would quit his job now if that is what I wanted. He said, otherwise, he would put in for a transfer to another school at the end of this year.

I don’t know what I feel……. I want my family to stay together for the sake of my kids. But, I will not stay in a relationship that is not fulfilling for me. I don’t know if this relationship can be what I need anymore.

WH called MC and got us an appt for today at 5pm. I’ll go – but I am apprehensive about it. I have just gotten to the point that I accepted it was over and I moved on emotionally. I am not sure that I am ready to do the work anymore.

I know that sounds selfish and I hate it. But, the reality is that is how I feel.

No, it is not selfish at all. Sometimes the resentment is so great that the marriage is unrecoverable, WW. You have to deal with more than the garden variety affair, you have to deal with multiple D-Days coupled with years of lies upon lies and neglect. Only YOU know what you can deal with, WW, but you are not selfish and you are not obliged to stay.

I would just suggest that you take it very slow and don't make any decisions right now. You have plenty of time.

Did he admit his affair?

RIGHT NOW ALL THE WORK SHOULD BE ON HIM....SIT BACK AND SEE, BY HIS ACTIONS, HOW SERIOUS HE IS. you have time.....

Oh, yes he admitted it. Said over and over how sorry he way. Told me anything I wanted to know. Said he knows it was a mistake and he doesn't know what to do to fix it - but that he'll do anything. Said he loves me and he wants to work on the marriage because he wants things between us to be whole and happy. He said he hates the person that he has allowed himself to become and that he is horrified about how he has treated me for the past 4 years. Said he is embarassed, ashamed, and he just wants me to give him a chance to change things.

I don't know if I want to. I am ready to be done with all this and move on.

But, I also want to provide my children with a firm family foundation. My OS drew a picture yesterday of our whole family together - how can I deny him the chance for that?

I am still sick to my stomach today.

It sounds like he is sincere. Only you know if you are trully done.

I am here to tell you that with the attitude he now has you both have a shot at finally having a happy marriage, better than before the A ever happened. It won't be easy but I believe it would be worth it. To have the rest of your lives together and to see your children grow up, marry, and eventually have grandchildren together. Your love and most of the trust can be restored. It took my H a long time.

I think if you put in a call to Steve Harley or his sister, Jennifer Chalmers, that they can help your see whether or not this is the real thing and can be salvaged. Then help with a plan for recovery if you that is the direction you choose.

I know that this is a difficult time and a shot to your pride should you capitulate now and stall the DV. It is worth it for your family and a potential to have the marriage of your dreams with the father of your children.

Ok

what , if anything, was said about the GPS proof you have?

Does he KNOW you have GPS or not? (hoping he does not know)

I would have him call OW and with both of you on the phone, he gives her the "goodbye don't ever call me" speach.

What difference does the GPS proof make now? He admitted the A. I hope she didn't divulge that info at this point. Really, I don't know if she needs to tell him about that for years or ever. But if he did read here he knows about it anyway.

this man needs a plan....have him call steve harley asap!

WW, 2 married people living under the same roof is not necessarly a 'firm family foundation'. You cannot give that IF you are not happy, don't want to be with your partner, don't trust him, resent him, etc.

It is not possible. Your kids will see it. The pain you will inflict on them over the years will be great. Staying together for the sake of the kids is NOT a marriage.

You don't have to make that sacrifice. They will survive it.

I am not telling you to D. Just don't stay in for the kids, that is no way to live your life. Your kids will survive a D. They will not want to live with the knowledge that their mother sacrificed her happiness (year and year of it) for them.



Daisy

He does not know about the GPS. He actually seemed suprised that I already knew....... He thinks that he really took a chance by telling me about the A. I told him several times that I already knew before he told me..... I think in his emotional state, he never thought to ask me HOW I knew. At this point, that doesn't matter.

Some A's take 4 yrs to run their course instead of the average of 2.

Why should she give up now that he may have finally seen the light?

Once she is sure that this is real then at some point she will need to forgive him and not harbor the resentment that can destroy their happiness. If she is unwilling to get to that point then she may as well DV because she may just grow into an old and bitter woman.

I think she will need to follow this and see where it leads. If it is false, she will find him out in time and that will be the end. Why now, when there can be hope for the marriage she's been hoping for these last four years. Believe me, I know, I've been there where I was close to done and then my H was willing to do all the work, take all the actions necessary for me to rebuild my trust in him and our marriage.

It sounds like your H, W2W, is at that point. Do you think it is just that he knows he will be losing a meal ticket? Do you really think he just wants to play you like a fool? Is that why he called a counselor? I doubt it. Let him show you. Let him do the hard work in recovery. Don't make him grovel though.

He said he is willing to quit or get transfered. When has he offered that before?

I guess that is what I hope we can start to get with MC tonight - a plan. My MC is the person that I saw for the two years after the first D-Day. He knows my history. He knows all the work I have done. He is a Christian pro-marriage person and I think that he is going to say this is salvagable.

I think that is what I am afraid of. It is easier for me to deal with everything if I can be done and move on. That is where my mindset is at this point.

I am not sure that I am ready to be open-minded and to consider working on a relationship with this man.

I never thought I would be to this point, either. The point of giving up.

I wish you would call Steve Harley or Jennifer anyway. They are the pros when it comes with dealing with infidelity and it's aftermath.

I know it is hard. I am very glad that I am still married even after all the ****** we went through.

At this point you know the devil you've got. Every other man out there is going to have some baggage or another. This man is the father of your kids. It is worth at least trying. But, it is your call. I know you feel like you've already given it 4 yrs. I think you allowed your H to eat cake and have the best of both worlds, unfortunately. I can't fault you for not seeing it sooner...I did the same thing the last time.

(((((WTW2)))))

Emotions are raw. It's hard to sort out heart from head.

Praying for some clear signs for you to follow.

The only times I was ever "sure" what I was doing was the right thing is when I gave it over to God.

If this MC was okay with how things were before can you trust him completely? I second the motion for a call to the Harleys. Can't hurt.

BTW, H & I are in a recovered mariage, well over 4 years from d-day.

(((((WTW2)))))

I can't help but have the gut feeling that he has read this thread, and his change of heart is more about protecting the OW than the marriage.

By this thread, he knows:

1. You have contacted a lawyer
2. You have solid proof via the GPS
3. You have BEEN ADVICED TO EXPOSE THE AFFAIR to the workplace

and so on. He miracously had a change of heart on his day off when he had plenty of time to scour the computer's history. It is so easy to leave trails on the computer. Where is the GPS tracking info??

I am sorry, but I really don't buy into the timing although it is possible to serve as a wake-up call. But after a solid 4 year affair - it is easier said than done. He has basically had unimpeded affair time with his Friday night poker games, etc.

Best of luck and keep your eyes wide open. Not moving back in my bedroom would be a "hill to die on", and I mean immediately.

That is the really strange thing.......... I don't really have any emotions now. Most people around me don't even know that anything has happened. I don't cry. I don't look sad or confused. I laugh at jokes and participate in coversations - just normally. Last time I went through this, it was written all over me - everyone could tell after one look at me.

It all seems to be my head this time - my heart has no feelings. The confusion is that I don't know if I am just numb from the shock of all of this, or if there just aren't any feelings in there anymore.

Waiting, I'm awfully skeptical about his motivations. If you go to MC with him, I’d think that has to be one of the first questions asked. I just don’t buy him having an epiphany right when you start to investigate and document things. Something is not right. And, like everyone else says, words don’t mean a thing right now.

It may also be that you have to decide that all of his words and actions are just too little, too late. That happens. Sometimes it’s the only solution that will keep one sane. I think Daisy used some very thoughtful words in her post. My kids would surely not have benefited from two parents who could no longer respect and love each other. It happens, and the children do survive quite well.

He offered to move back to my bedroom last night. I don't want him there right now. He asked if he could come back if he swore not to touch me, but I said no.

The computer I use at home is a laptop and I have been taking it with me when I leave the house. That is where all the info is. None of the equipment is in the house - i keep it with me so it will not be found. If he is reading here, he would have had to find the site himself and figure out who I was and which thread is mine. I doubt that happened. Sure, its possible, but not probable.

He was devastated when I told him that I had a lawyer. I don't think he already knew that.

WTW wrote: "WH called MC and got us an appt for today at 5pm. I’ll go – but I am apprehensive about it. I have just gotten to the point that I accepted it was over and I moved on emotionally. I am not sure that I am ready to do the work anymore.

I know that sounds selfish and I hate it. But, the reality is that is how I feel."

You are absolutely NOT being selfish. Your H has been the selfish one since his 1st A, which resulted in another 4 yrs of deception and ****** for you. Don't you forget that! I am not saying the M is necessarily over, just that if you decide it is that's OK.

I'm curious what caused this sudden conversion in your H? The timing is just so coincidental. Did he happen to mention why now all of a sudden he wants to work on the M? Is it just because he picked up on your current vibes? And definitely keep that GPS device running. THAT will let you see just how serious he is. You need to sit back and let this man do ALL the work right now.The burden of proof is on him, not you. And it's perfectly OK to not know what you want, and to tell him that. IMVHO this is beyond Plan Aing the FWS. You did that and he kept his A going another 4 yrs. I agree with Aphelion that LTAs are a different animal altogether.

I sincerely hope that the MC you are going to is not the one who said working with OW was OK. If so you might as well cancel yout appt. My H's A was 9 months. During that time he tried to break it off several times. The OW always begged him not to leave her. Now I realize how of course the A wasn't going to end just because he wanted it to. He'd tell her they needed to end it and see her the very next day, where she was right there encouraging it to continue. He'd get his OW fix and it continued on. There has to be NC so it doesn't surprise me that your H's A didn't end, even if he maybe wanted it to after the 1st d-day.

WTW, don't fold on anything you need now. Still talk to your attorney. Then watch and wait. CV

www2, i love trix's words and i ditto them. my vote is you are numb because you have a plan this time. you are indifferent. regardless of mc tonight, make a list of the things your h must do in order for you to stay, one being the no contact letter. the harleys are way better than any ic. they make you hold accountability. money well spent.
let him do the work. he's off to a great start. don't plan a thing. he must prove to you w/his actions. let him make all the plans and arrangements and you stay neutral. my problem is that i try to do all the work. it's not up to us. hugs again. wish you were nearby so i could take you to lunch.

WTW2,

Go back to the beginning of this thread. You were having plenty of emotions when you first started it.

Call it shock or whatever you'd like, the body has a way of protectig you when it is too much to handle.

I wish I could predict the future for you and ease some of your anxiety, but you will just have to watch as each hour, each day, each week unfolds.

IF you decide on recovery, you may want to move to the recovery board. IMHO the kind of support you will need will be easier to get there.

Still thinking about you, hoping you can sense all the good thoughts and prayers being sent your way.

If H does not suspect/know about the GPS

she ought to continue to monitor his whereabouts IF she decides to try and reconcile.

I think timing is everything. I am so glad you found out about A before he told you. Who knows why he picked now to come clean. Maybe it was a combination of things, A lost its glamour...you were behaving differently this week...started him evaluating his life...went to the funneral big eye opener especially if deceased friend was close to his age.

He is now ready and willing...let him. Have him call SH to help him form a plan. You've given it 4 years already whats another few weeks to see how it plays out? The goal is not to just stay married but for you to be in love with eachother and happy...what better gift for your children.

I believe that that friend's funeral could have affected him in this way.

Let us not forget that this is a marriage building site. I guess we all project from our own experiences.

I totally understand that you lack similar emotions this time as last. It is up to him to prove to you this time. He has to keep showing you this new attitude and resolve.

You have to see that he has lost his selfish entitlement.

When I had yet another D-day believing it was the last I said we will just split everything and go our separate ways.
My FWH did all the work. 3 yrs later and he is still sustaining that attitude. He is still showing me by his actions that he is in this marriage and wanting to keep making it the best marriage for both of us. I wish the same for you. Your kids are younger than mine were.

I guess I am not as cynical as many folks here.

I wish you the best, W2W. You deserve it.

Agreed.

He keeps telling me that it was going to the funeral of his highschool friend that broke his soul. He said that the situation had been laying on him for awhile and he didn't know what to do so he did nothing. He said that as he sat there listening to people talk about his friend, all he could think about was what people would have to say about him when he died. He said that he feels like there is nothing good about his life right now. He told me he feels like he has a great wife and great kids and that somehow he has managed to mess it all up. He said he used to be a fun person who loved to do things and had lots of friends, but that now he has become a lonely person who has isolated himself from everything. He said he wants to change all that and have a life by my side.

He said that sitting in that church for 2 hours on Saturday was humbling and that something inside him changed.

He also said that he wants to start going to church with me and the kids. He has never done that regularily before. Of course, he said alot of things. That doesn't mean they are going to happen.

The hand of God works in mysterious ways. Guide him to SH or your own MC while he is still motivated.

Unless he read a book on "how to tell your BS all the things they want to hear and be a model WS", it sounds like maybe he is finally feeling the impact of the mess he made of his life.

The test of that might be how open he is with the MC. Does he know you told your parents & friends? The reaction to that could tell you alot,too. No more opportunity for a secret life if it's out in the open to everyone.

Is there a reason you don't want to try using SH?

I believe him. Time will tell by his actions.

If you do decide to try again...I hope you won't hold onto your anger and unforgiveness long. Dr. Willard Harley says that the BS is the greatest threat/hinderence to real recovery at just this juncture. You will eventually have to give that up and invite him back into your bedroom. Spend some time in prayer and meditation. I believe God has answered your prayers...but in His timing, not yours.

Seek the Lord while He may be found...

I am excited for you because I can see the potential for a great marriage and family.

W2W,
I have read this whole thread from start to finish - and I so feel for you. Stay strong!
Something that I read disturbed me though - you say that your H set up the MC appointment, and it was with the MC that you saw last time? Correct me if I read this wrong - but isnt this the same MC that advocated that it was ok for your H to continue working with the OW??
My, his advice really helped!
I know you think that he knows your case well, after all, he helped you for 2 years, and it had to be individual (thanks to the lack of trying from your H) but I would be concerned about going back to the same MC - especially as your H seems to have chosen this one too.
Im not putting the MC down, put I wonder if perhaps your H feels that things worked out well for him last time due to the MC's advice, and using the same one, it could do again??
Sorry to sound cynical - I am of the opinion that all marriages should really be worked at, but it is impossible if its not worked at by both, 4 years of chances is a long time - and it does seem that he has only come clean because he suspected you had already discovered him.

I only know what you have posted about your H, but have to say that he must be an incredibly sneaky individual to have promised you the earth 4 years ago, and then to have continued his deception quite happily up until the point you already knew about it recently????
Seems to me like he likes his cake and eat it. (Understatement!) I would say not so much fog as incredibly deceptive and selfish!
Please tread carefully here, people like this can be very very clever at getting what they want at all costs - it is easy for those of us individuals who see the best in everyone to not be able to comprehend the lengths that some people will go to to protect themselves, but in the long run they only hurt others and are selfish individuals who only see their own feelings and wants in life.

The other thing is that the OW is obviously under his spell too, if she has let him live with you for 4 years and not given him an ultimatum. She is an enabler and is dangerous to any future your marriage may have. I dont believe that if she has allowed this for 4 years, a phone call from your H to her, in front of you, is going to dismantle this relationship.
I would suggest talking to her to see what lies and rubbish he has told her.
Dont forget, he is a liar!
He needs to hit rock bottom before he really sees what he has done. It is an addiction, similar to an alcoholic.
Only you can decide what is best for you - but bear in mind that you have 4 years of deception and lies to work through,
on top of his broken promises from before. How many years will it take before you can truly trust him again, and are you prepared to live your life that way?
I admire your courage and bravery! Do not let him manipulate you. It would be awful to see you here in a few years with more of the same.

I am sorry - I think he had a moment at the funeral that woke him up. HE has had things pretty good for 4 yrs. WHy not go back. I believe he will have a honey moon period 2, 3 ,4 6 months maybe a year. I would really like to see this guy in IC. You said his father had A's. Hmmmm. I wonder if he can truely change for a life time with out this.
I also feel your emotions and what he has put you tru will take alot of time and forgiveness on your part. That will take awhile.
I know I wonder how long my H will be GOOD? How long till the old behaviors start again. Please regarless what anyone says -anyone- do for yourself what is right. You and only you have to live with this.

I am open to trying Steve Harley. But, I have a rapport with the MC that we are seeing tonight. Plus, I have a personal connection to him outside of this situation. He was the pastor at the church I grew up in. He left the ministry after earning his doctorate and he has been a marriage and family counselor for many years. He knows me and my family intimately and I honestly believe that he has my best interest at heart. He is someone that I can trust and I don't have much of that to share at this point. That is why I am willing to see what he has to say tonight.

And, yes - WH does know who I have told. I told him that I thought he needed to apoligize to my parents for this, too. Maybe that is out of line - I don't know. I am just so tired of making excuses for him and trying to bridge the gap for him.... He hurt them when he hurt me because they have been my source of support through all of this.

Is that a wierd thing to ask him to do?

Not at all weird. I suspect he will be more than willing to make amends to anyone he needs to in order to put this right. He will have to humble himself a bit this time. Remorse and repentance is what you should see.

Willing:

No sexual contact with him at least until you've been tested for STDs and they come back ok. Tell him this. This is a consequence of what he has done.

I third, fourth, fifth the motion to call one of the Harleys. This counselor you are seeing also ok'd the poker nights with you not knowing what was going on there, right?

If you took a collection here at MB to spend on phone counseling with the Harleys, you'd have the money collected in no time flat - I hope you are hearing us chant: HAR-ley, HAR-ley, HAR-ley...!!!

Em

I'm glad you have a marriage counselor you are comfortable with. But you still may want to consider 1 session with SH. He can help WH come up with a MB plan. Before the marriage can recover WS need to make an effort. After all this time stumbling around in the fog he needs direction on what he should do. IMHO go to MC, WH has lots he needs to do, see if he is committed, then maybe consult w/ SH for direction but continue w/ your MC on recovering marriage. I had a session w/ SH this AM check my thread for details.

www2
i believe for a brief moment your h's heart was vulnerable and open to the holy spirit. i believe the holy spirit has come over him. i know this sounds like voodoo to most who are not christian believers. let me tell you a little story.

2 yrs ago i went to a retreat, i know for certain i was overcome by the spirit in church. the retreat was about handing over the reins in life to god. i was a rein holder. the weekend had a huge impact on me. i returned home and started applying what i learned. i also decided to be a part of the next retreat/one of the facilitators. my h saw my changes instantly. he said he saw so much peace and humility in me. he decided to go to the mens retreat. it had been a few weeks after the retreat and the first nite of my first meeting for the planning of the next retreat. we all had to give witness about our life and how god played a part in our life. i went home that nite and crawled into bed and hugged my h adn told him how lucky i was to have such a awesome career, husband, children, home etc and how these women were messed up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> the next morning is when i got the call from the ow's h telling me of his discovery of my h and his wife's affair.

long story short my h went to that mens retreat a broken man. he has quickly outpaced me in our christian relationship with god and has almost become the christian head of household in our home.

so in short i think your h has been visited by the spirit, what an awesome dream life sitting at your feet at the wrong timing. that's gods timing. we'd like it to be in our timing, but it's not how it works <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> god is giving you a opportunity to rebuild that marriage on a strong foundation. lots of hard work.

the last two years for me (dday 2/3/06) has been rough as for everyone else who is a bs. life can present you with a lot of bs.....what matters is what you do with it.

i for one hope you give your h a 2nd chance. if you read harleys books you will soon realize how the brain of a ws is soooooo f'd up. it's not something he was trying to do to you, you were just a bystander.

come on over to recovery and start a new thread. you will get a lot more support and stories about relationships just like yours that went bad and turned into something glorious.

god has a f'd up sence of humor at times i've said. i had to go through the fire....the furnace and be shaped and molded before i vcould have the marriage of my dreams.

xoxoxo

Not to be a wet blanket here, W2W, but your WH's A is nowhere near over.

OW hasn't even weighed in yet.

LTA's are as hard to end as, what, food addictions? Cocaine? Nicotine? SA? World Hunger?

No - much, much harder.

Look at what his LTA has survived already. Look at how long it’s gone on. Look at for how many years he didn’t care about you in the least.

This is less of an A than it is a well integrated lifestyle for him by now.

Your WH is going to need much more than an MC. And OW is going to have to disappear completely.

W2W, all the good intentions in the world will not end an LTA. Saying all the right things in the right order with the right tone of voice are not going to end an LTA. LTAs are completely different from the garden variety A that cookbook MB methods are designed to address.

You and your H need expert help. I sure hope your minister/MC/friend knows his stuff. This will be a very tough nut to crack. Get it right this time. I don’t want you to end up on the receiving end of a ten-year LTA with multiple D-Days like I did.

With prayers,

Added: With very proficient and expert MC and IC we did crack our nut. The LTA is over, I belive. But something you might keep in mind, I often wonder why I bothered. An LTA eats up so much of your life you have to think it through carefully. It is best if you can decide up front if it is going to be worth the effort.

I agree with Em!
I understand W2W that you have a good rapport with your MC, but it does concern me that he seems to have advocated your behaviour in enabling your H to continue the affair. I think many other MC's would have established that you found it difficult to make demands and boundaries of your H, even though you had the right too, and would have helped you in overcoming your difficulties in this area, so that you put your foot down a bit more in the first instance, thus taking away most of the opportunities for the A to continue.
The sheer fact that you have worked sooo hard at this marriage for 4 years in the blatant face of your H's total lack of trying (no Mc, IC, secrets etc) I think most MC's would have advised to not allow these things at ANY cost!
I also agree that he needs IC - he has been in an incredibly deceptive place for 4 years and lived happily with it. Something to worry about in itself.

wow, we all keep giving advice even though www2 hasn't asked for any. maybe we all, myself included should stop giving it. let us know how it all pans out www2. you've heard all you need to hear here. take some time to think. best wishes

Your heart needs time to heal. If you try to forgive him quickly, you will probably not be able to. And you won't be able to love each other as a H and W should.

Tell your WH to move out and stay away. Nonnegotiable. And tell him that when you are ready to talk you will let him know - could be weeks or months. If he is real you will know it.

No .... but guess what ... if he is sincere, he ought to volunteer an apology !!!!

Why should you ASK him to behave decently?

I am going to backpeddle here -

The ball should be totally in your H's court right now.

HE called and made the appointment.
HE can take the lead on the direction the MC goes.
HE can decide the next steps to recover the marriage. (He asks you if he should quit or wait til the end of school year - what does HE think he should do? Let him reason it out in front of you.)

Later on, if you decide this MC isn't strong enough on A issues, you can give your H info about SH and let HIM decide what to do with it.

It is his turn to take the lead 100%. You can show support without taking control.

EDITED TO ADD - It's easy to get caught up in the advice giving. It's well intended. So my last words of advice are - hurry up & wait <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. I'm really glad that you were able to get an appointment so quickly.

Stargirl has some good points, Waiting. Some folks are awfully eager to believe a man who was a liar, a cheat, controlling, manipulative, emotionally detached, et al, and who engaged in an adultery that continued for at least four years! I think it’s awfully premature to say he’s believable at this point.

Waiting, he could very well be reading your posts. It wouldn’t have been hard to figure out who you were…WH is a teacher, sleeps apart in son’s (age x) from BW for four years, poker every Friday night, a blister pack of 'STAMINA Rx Maximum Sexual Stimulant, going to a funeral…

Those are pretty definitive specifics he could key on. Actually, he’d be absolutely certain it was you.

"Some folks are awfully eager to believe a man who was a liar, a cheat, controlling, manipulative, emotionally detached, et al, and who engaged in an adultery that continued for at least four years! I think it’s awfully premature to say he’s believable at this point."

Ah, that would be me....guilty as charged. Maybe he needed the Stamina Stuff because it was getting to the point where he wasn't up to snuff with OW and it was becoming a big conflict.

I agree that the ball is in his court to prove his resolve.

I think lots of us are projecting our stories on W2W. Both the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Peace.

Well Long, unfortunately for me, its all coming from experience! But thats another story.....
I understand that some people can truly change - they can, i have witnessed it. But I feel in this situ, where deception has gone on for 4 years, there is something much bigger going on underneath. Esp regarding the H's fathers history. I find it strange that he has blatently been quite cruel at times (and recently) and witholding, to have this very sudden turn around just after W2W had already discovered the A. Its an overnight change, and this in itself is worrying.
How could someone be so cruel on a day to day basis, and then it seems say the right things at the right time?
Oh believe me, ive heard all the right things at the right time. Pulling on my niavity and hope over and over again, to discover more deception.
Maybe seeing W2W's new found strength and independance have helped H to see her in a new light. But does this mean that W2W has to change her personality in order to keep the H in line? How much work will this take?
There is also the OW who is clearly besotted and prepared to put up with anything - my how this H must weave a magic spell to keep all this ticking along in his favour for 4 YEARS! This is a very very clever man! Dont underestimate him.

willing, I am still curious if THIS MC is the same one who said it was OK for your H to continue to work with OW. Also, did he condone the poker nights in which you had no details? If so, as much as you might feel comfortable with this man, he does not understand infidelity. Just like some people might need a shark attorney when they D, you need a primo MC right now who totally understands infidelity. You can not screw around with this now. The Harleys are a good place to start. I also believe there are good MCs out there that really understand this horror. Our MC is one of them. Please don't settle with a mediocre MC. He will do more harm than good. CV

And MC does not work at all, no matter who MC is, without complete and total NC.

This situation, as with LTAs in general, is bigger than MC. WH needs a major overhaul and realignment before MC will be of lasting benefit.

Dear Willing,

I'm so sorry that you are going through this! You sound strong. It's the adrenaline that is allowing you to disconnect from your heart right now. That is not all bad as long as you go back and deal with the feelings at a later date.

I'm glad that you have the MC appointment tonight and it sure is an important step if you WANT to reconcile, however, I'd have one rule for reconciliation if I were you. It would be that YOU get to call the shots for counseling. He needs some serious IC work for as long as YOU think he needs it. I hope you'll stand up for yourself in this area. You need to be safe and his emotional health is the key to your safety in this relationship.

I'd also insist that he attend an MKP weekend and that he get involved with that men's group. It's all about integrity and the group would literally hold him accountable. www.mkp.org

Let us know how things go tonight. I'm so sorry!!

Stillwed

Wow, it took forever to read this entire thread. So as I see it, Willing's love bank is in a huge negative balance. THis is what happens when you spend 4 years of your life working on a marriage all by your self. Willing's husband suddenly has a change of heart because he either knows or senses that she has finally had enough.

All of us here have had varying emotions reading this thread. We all know that she is the only one who can decide what is best for her. She has spent 4 years of her life working on a marriage that appeared to have very little importance to her WH. While all of this could have been handled better, it is what it is.

So IMHO, what is the hurry. If she proceeds with the divorce, she may always wonder if he had really changed, if they could have regained the marriage they had before the affair. Or she could put those divorce plans on hold and see if he puts his money where his mouth is and actually shows her that he is trying to change. The ball is in his court to show her he means business and wants to make things right.

For the first time in years, she gets to make the rules and set the boundaries. So why not give him a chance to make some deposits in her love bank. If he is insincere or has some dark ulterior motive, she is going to spot it fairly quickly if she stays on her game and keeps her eyes open and her suspicions up.

Ultimately, if there is nothing he can do to regain her lost love, she can always proceed with the divorce knowing that she gave the marriage every chance.

Who

Seems to me that one of three things has gone on here:

- With odd timing, things progressed exactly like he described. Change of heart at a funeral etc.
- With odd timing, the OW threw him over and now he's crawling back.
- Your actions and strange behavior caused him to investigate what was up with you. He found out or suspected that you knew and he's gone into hysterics trying to figure out what to do now the he can't be a cakeman anymore.

I know which one I think it was -- the one that does not rely on odd timing and coincidence. Just based on your posts you were clearly agitated, he sensed it, figured he was busted, and concocted some story. Maybe he broke up with OW. Maybe he put it on hold.

If it were me, the first thing I'd do is to call the OW. I'd tell her you know they were having an affair, that you don't love him anymore, and ask her what's going on between them. Listen and see what she says. You probably can't trust certain messages from her, but if you ask an open ended question rather than a leading question you may find out something interesting. Like -- your husband is lying. And yes, definitely, leave that GPS in place.

Then I'd spend some time in marriage counseling while you proceed with the divorce proceedings. Does not hurt to go to counseling with him. You may learn something. You may change your mind.

If it were me, he'd be done. He's had 2 chances already. He married you, committed to no affair and then screwed it up. Then he got caught cheating and created a web of lies to continue the affair. I'd have no confidence, and more importantly, no desire to continue on with him.

Good luck. I've lurked a long time. Yours was the post that got me to register. I'd swear this guy is a slime who got caught, is trying to save face, and will do it again in the future. You deserve better. Unless he's great in bed or really engaging and entertaining, it's time to learn what you can and then move on.

Dear WTW:

do you remember when he claimed to break it off with OW the first time around and you found out about continued contact?

Do you think this change in him now is for real?
Listen to your own feelings. You have had enough, you wrote. I blieve you.

You owe your H NOTHING. He lied to you repeatedly, betrayed you for four years- every week. He likes his arrangement with OW on Fridays and you and the kids at home. Has he said he will call OW and in your presence break off the relationship with her? Will he change jobs now, so there is no more contact? Have you told him in the past about the MB website?

He is trying to manipulate you again and only you can decide if you are willing to give him another chance -again and again. Your gut feeling is to move on for your own good. Listen to your feelings, they are trying to tell you something to protect yourself.

Hugs,

OK, I'm going to throw something out here that I don't believe has been mentioned yet.
Many(including myself) feel the coincidence of his timing is a little hard to believe. So how do we get to the heart of your WH's sudden remorse?
Many have suggested he is reading here, or, in fact, reading you and your behavior. This could all be true.
So here's what I would suggest. Did you not say OW is married? If so, you have one more exposure to do. Tell OWH about the A and how long it's been going on. First of all, he has every much a right to know as you do. Secondly, it will slam the door shut on the A continuing, in spite of the collusion of the OW and WH.
Then, sit back and watch the actions of your WH. If he is truly repentant and sorrowful, he will completely understand your actions. If this is all another guise to convince you to back off, he will be furious that you busted OW to her H.
As many have said so many times, actions speak louder than word, and the truth is, you cannot at this time trust your WH.
If she is single, you should expose to school admin. to see what action he then takes.
JMHO.
All Blessings,
Jerry

I don't think OW is married else how would the GPS showing he was at her house and probably going there each weekend make any sense.

Lots of WS's are less than sincere the first time or two they are found out. She will know soon enough if this is for real or not.

Of course NC is imperative. I really hope she/he works with Steve Harley to come up with a plan. At least a couple of sessions in conjunction with their regular MC.

One of the most profound statements I have ever read on MB's came from YOU W2W:

He stole FOUR YEARS of your life.
Thats something I could not forgive.

Hear, hear. Profound words, Waiting. Good catch Lexxxy.

Yes, Yes, no matter what he says...you must expose to the school!

and we're all still going at it w/out any questions or asking of information from www2. poor girl has had the same thing said 1000 times. not to mention a couple punches in the gut while she's already down. enough is enough already. this is not a game of who has the best answer, this is a marriage w/people and children involved. yes i said people. people go strange places in their brain while having an affair, check out dearpeggy.com as to the reasons why people have affairs. this dude did not purposely set out to hurt www2, he was a classic dude in the fog. give this girl some breathing room. if i were her i would feel like a bunch of vultures came sworming down on me. seems like many are feeling the pain this whole saga has brought on feelings from their own spouses infidelity. lets let www2 chill and gather her thoughts and ask more questions when she is ready????

Pem wrote:

"this dude did not purposely set out to hurt www2, he was a classic dude in the fog. give this girl some breathing room. if i were her i would feel like a bunch of vultures came sworming down on me. seems like many are feeling the pain this whole saga has brought on feelings from their own spouses infidelity. lets let www2 chill and gather her thoughts and ask more questions when she is ready????"

Pem, I would just say that her H saw her pain after d-day #1, and yet he continued his A for another 4 yrs. Or at least resumed it at some point. How long do we allow the fog excuse?

I will agree that WTW's sitch reminds me of certain things I went through. It's difficult to read and relive. Yet, in my case, I'm putting up with my feelings in order to try and be of some help because people here on GQll did the exact same thing for me. I personally think people have been helping her do what she needs to do in order to get to the truth. It appears that her H either knows her newfound resolve, or is picking up on it subconsciously.

WTW, if pem is correct, and you think some of us are swooping vultures, please let us know, OK? Or at least let me know. I have no idea and couldn't even guess if your H is or isn't sincere. I can say without a doubt he is one screwed up man. As Aph said he will need major IC to figure out how he could keep this deception going for over 4 yrs. Only you can decide if you want your M or not. I think many of us are just telling you to watch your back and take things slowly to test his resolve. You deserve to have him fight for your M now. CV

Pem,

"People go strange places in their brain while having an affair, check out dearpeggy.com as to the reasons why people have affairs. This dude did not purposely set out to hurt www2, he was a classic dude in the fog."

I don't want to argue, but I request to be allowed to heartily disagree.

LTA's are different. Fog is usually long gone by four years, yet the A is still going on. The A long ago evolved to F-buddies or virtual bigamy. Attachment of the WS to the OP by then is usually stronger than for the BS. In some LTAs the OP has almost totally replaced the spouse even if WS has not left the M and never will.

After 4 years and at least one DDay already, W2W’s WH knows exactly what he is doing. He has sorted out by then everything he is doing. He has thought about everything relevant by then. LTA WS’s by then intentionally continue because they long ago learned how to get away with it. The whole A rational has very little to do with fog by then.

LTAs either require or evolve into a major character defect in the WS. By the time the A is an LTA the WS has been living a double life for so long he/she is now the kind of person they truly are.

W2W needs to understand all this. LTAs are not treatable with standard MB methods. W2W needs to get advice directly from SH or someone equally as knowledgeable in this outlier type of A.

I suggest you call the Harleys, pem, and ask about LTAs for yourself.

But the rest of your post has merit. W2W gets to decide what she needs and when she needs it.

Just the same, some of us recovering from an LTA are willing to stick our necks out to help her avoid our fate. We are willing to help her identify the unknowns, the big things she does not YET even know enough to ask anyone about.

What is wrong with that?

With prayers,

Added: At the risk of a DJ aimed at W2W's WH, IMO his current stance is one of convenience. It's an act until proven otherwise.

W2W,

I would suggest being very cautious. As you know, the WS have an uncanny sense of knowing what to say and how to say it, and when too for that matter.

I agree with the others, only real change will happen after you stand up for yourself, and it won't be just one time. Someone else here said that most likely your WH could be "good" for awhile, but not long-term if the change isn't real. Well, I believe these WS who are true takers, will keep trying to unless and until it is made clear that the BS isn't going to take it any more. I'm sure we all have our own stories of abuse and neglect, but I'm like others here in saying your WS is in a different class. My WS isn't quite in it, only 1 year of continued A after I thought it was over compared to your 4, but I struggle the most with how could he continue after he knew the pain it caused? Answer, they don't care, at the time. Does he care now? Who knows, either way you won't believe him right now, I wouldn't either. It is only through consistent actions over time that you'll begin to believe him. You'll have to keep reminding him of your boundaries, it will not be one conversation, but many over several years.

Some things strike me beyond the timing, almost certain he knew that you knew, or were close. He said he was with you for the kids. Now, if he thought that was seriously threatened, how important is that piece to him that he would suddenly regret everything he has done to you? On the other hand, he did make the appointment, which it is good, or is it again, more evidence how important his kids are to him? Does he know that you will not live in an "arranged" marriage? If he does, he may be feeding you things in order for you to think he has changed.

People that have struggled and have suddenly seen the light don't wait until Monday while you're at work to call you up. They share this, or you sense this through his changed behavior after the funeral and on Sunday. Keep your walls up emotionally, only you are looking out for you, please don't depend on him to, he has proven that he can't do it well.

One woman had her WH take a lie detector test to try to understand what was truth. It took two times. Their marriage recovered. (only a 6 wk A with her friend and neighbor.)

You will always have to have dealings with your h in regard to your children whatever happens.The best outcome for you and your children IMO is the complete removal of the OW. She is the fly in the ointment .

Consider! If you throw him out he will always be the father of your children that can never change. If he falls into her arms she will continue to occupy a very prominent position in your life .You will be in constant contact with her regarding the children.

IHMO He has a lot to lose and he is waking up to that fact. The least he can do if he truly loves his family are .......

1 Absolutely no contact.... f=/, off for ever OW

2 Resign his job immediately telling them why he is leaving .

3 Follow through on his responsibilities to his family
and for him to decide how best this is to be done.

4 Attend marriage counselling to assist with above

Your situation is similar to mine and is a very common one. The 10 yr old marriage coincides with the birth of another child.in my case at the start of the a I was 34 my h 38 and the OW 24 .

I blame her more than him. A 38 yr old married man with 2 children is a pushover when it comes to the I'm available, no strings attached ,no one will ever know, attention seeking, control freak OW.

Anyway whatever you decide i wish you the very best
.

Well, it is still the same affair, so if WW2 has the stamina and enough left in her love bank, I would cautiously start dating, slowly and watch WSs actions. I would have him change jobs-now. No further contact and watch the gps. I realize that his change of heart is sudden and the timing uncanny, but noticing that his wife was changing and then going to a funeral may have shocked him out of his MLC, realizing that yes, he would die someday no matter what.

If he signs on as a model FWS, then I'd cautiously give him a chance, if only for the kids. AND only if WW2 is up for it. What is another few months after 4 years anyway. Do you think she should talk to the OW?

By the way, WW2, no one would fault you if you wanted to move on, I am 100% pro marriage, but your H has done a great deal of damage. I do believe that he could have finally realized and since I have had a succesful recovery, I believe it is possible. After all, only 3% end up with their OW. I think the A fizzeled.

WTW,
How are you? Did he follow thru w/MC last night? You've gotten an awful lot of advice on both sides of the issue..and the bottom line is it is your decision on how to proceed. You are in my thoughts and prayers for a clear mind and a calm heart. Let us know how you are...we worry.

W2W,

In my case, my WH went to a funeral too that affected him. In his case, as he was still all about him, he also thought of who would come to the funeral if it were him and what would they say. He basically felt sorry for himself. He didn't stop with the A, though, never said he wanted to change, didn't want to go to MC. So, it is very confusing for you I'm sure.

The truth is very elusive, especially when one is a master of manipulation and the other one who desperately doesn't want to hurt her kids. I completely understand that. My sons are much older than you and they know quite a bit after the fact. The two older sons are upset with me for not "punishing" their dad for his behavior and the yougest is upset that we moved from NJ basically under false pretenses. I am trying to proceed with integrety, that's all I can do really. I hope you are ok today. Let us know about the MC and the attorney. <<hugs>>

alph, i spoke w/sandy in the harley's office about another matter just yesterday as a matter of fact and she was talking about a long term affair couple she is currently working with. i will agree alph, that i am not an expert on lta's, however as I have mentioned there are plenty people here and others i know personally that have recovered successfully. one specifically visits our board from time to time in recovery forum. here's the author of dear peggy whose husband had many many affairs as an example http://www.dearpeggy.com/beyond.html

the fog excuse cv, can be used as long as there is not a spouse doing plan a or plan be to expose the light to the affair and make it's "romantic effect become less romantic"

i appologize for being a more positive force representing the sanctity of marriage more encouraging words instead of words of "don't or wouldn't or shouldn't" all of those things are for down the road..... not now. many of the words here are "i wouldn't trust him, how convenient he changes now etc etc etc". in fact i believe one of my responses was have his bags packed....that was in response to my own fears and feelings if my spouse were to be a repeat offender.....things i would have liked to do but didn't. i get the feeling many here are being convicted of their forgivingness and project what they would have liked to have done on those who have the opportunity to do so. anyway, none of this really matters. we can agree to disagree because everyone has their own opinions..... when you want to know what opinions are successful, you look to the professionals who have results from their practices such as the harleys or dear peggy or whomever. tell me that there never was a couple who successfully recovered their marriage after a long term affair and i will be happy to dig up the proof. if the circumstances are right and the two are willing participants, anything is possible.

I had to take a break. Sorry for being gone. I have read everything each MBer has written, though, and I thank you for each word. I cannot go thru this alone – I WILL NOT – and each of you out there has provided some sense of comfort and hope for me. For that, I can never thank you enough.

We went to MC last night. I am still taking in everything that was said. But, MC and WH both feel that there is hope for recovering our marriage. I am not sure – I still don’t feel anything. I must be numb. WH broke down several times and really showed a side of himself that I have not seen for many, many years. He seems desperate to make me believe that loves me and wants a life with me. I just can’t believe him. It’s not that I don’t want to – I just can’t. I feel like a zombie – flat. Not happy, not sad, not mad – nothing.

I am meeting with our counselor by myself tomorrow morning. He seems to think that I need some time by myself to figure out what I feel and what I want before any MC can take place. If I decide not to commit to the marriage – which he said is perfectly fine, especially considering everything that I have been thru – then that changes the course of therapy.

One thing that he said struck me. He told me (in front of WH) that, although God does not like divorce, the Bible does give a few ‘outs’ and that this (adultery) is one of them. He said that God does not want people to go thru what I am dealing with and that I am perfectly within my rights in the law and in God’s eyes to end this marriage if I have had enough. He said he would not blame me – no one would. He told me that he remembered all I went thru last time and commented that several times he did not know how I even made it through.

However, he also said that divorce is an OPTION, not a COMMANDMENT. That I am not expected to do one or the other. Either is fine and it is up to me. For some reason, I found some comfort in that.

He asked if I was committed to getting a divorce at this time. After a bit of thought, I told him that I was committed to not living my life the way I had been anymore. I was committed to being treated well and having a loving relationship in my life. And, that the only way I can see to get that is thru a divorce.

I did go see my attorney today. I did not file for divorce, but I gathered lots of information about what to expect and what my kids and I will go thru if it comes to that. I also got a ‘list’ of things that I need to do to get ready to file. So, although I did not file, I feel like I still have options and that I have a plan to work on for the next few days while I try an figure out what I want.

That’s it for now. I still need those prayers – they are truly what gets me thru!

Thanks, WTW

W2W,

Be sure all four of you understand, espeially WH and your MC, that MC is a total waste of time if there is any ongoing contact whatsoever in any form between WH and OW.

Which means, exposure and NC letter - asap. Thus the four of you. OW needs to understand this too, even if she does not agree. Especially if she does not agree.

You may as well sit there and knit the hour through if NC is not already total and absolute. It may as well be mediation as opposed to MC if NC is not in place.

With prayers,

Added: You probably realize that OW already knows everything going on. At the very least WH is contacting her to cancel or postpone Friday’s usual "poker game," and she knows the reason, too. This is when typical LTAers generally hunker down to weather just another storm in their long relationship. You and MC need to make this storm the equivalent of Armageddon to the LTA. If you do not immediately D, that is.

All As require strong measures. LTAs require the end of life as we know it measures.

Yes - NC was the first thing discussed. WH has offered to quit his job or put in for a transfer to another school. MC intends to meet with WH separately to discuss the affair, OW, etc. However, MC feels that that the most pressing cisis right now is me - my feelings, my wants, my plans.

And, I'll say this............ for once, it is really, really nice to have it all about ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(((WTW)))
How positive you sound, today. YOU are important. YOU deserve to be happy.

The other day I posted to you about wishing my parents had divorced earlier. That was in no way an encouragement for you to divorce. It was an encouragment that if divorce was your decision, your kids would rather you be happy and divorced than married and miserable for them. I hate to see any marriage end, but I hate to see any one be miserable for a lifetime.

I so hope the best for you.

Are you planning to take him up on the offer to change jobs? Just my opinion, but I think that would be a huge positive step combined with a NC letter.

I do agree you are in the most important part of the equation at the moment. MY IC said it was like I needed to be in ICU, to be treated with that much care. I am glad the counselor sees

You don't have to hurry into a decision do you? It is good you have gathered the information and will be able to make informed decisions.

I know we'll all be keeping in you our prayers that you make the best decision for you and your children.

blessings

W2W,

You are awesome, really a strong person and an inspiration. Wishing you didn't have to go through this, but you are a shining light for your sons, who most likely sense some change has happened.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

this is very nice to read

How is your husband's attitude different than it was after D-day 4 yrs ago. Has he said anything to indicate that he is different than he was then? Was he as contrite and remorseful then?

You obviously now hold the cards and have the upper hand. You can cut your losses and move on, take a chance on the unknown out there. Or, you can take another chance at having a better marriage with the father of your children.

I agree, NC is imperative.

Hope you realize how much strength some of the new folks here are gaining just from reading "your Story." You are doing just great in the situation that many of us BS fear may be in our future and you are handling it with dignity, class, and a single purpose of mind.....a loving happy relationship either with your H or not. Stay tough and keep your eye on what is best for YOU!

Who

WTW,

Glad to here that you went to MC with the WS / FWS? The MC does sound like he has a good head on his shoulders. I especially like what he said about your option / not a commandment.

It was a good idea to follow through with your attorney and keep your options open. I'm glad that you didn't go for the Big "D" right away. You can always play that card later if circumstances merit it.

YOU are in control right now. Take a few days and really think about what you want to do. No one here will blame you if you decide to go for the bid "D". On the other hand if you decide to reconsile everyone here will be happy to support you in that also.

As for the "timing" of your WS's confession: Although the timing seems suspicious, my gut tells me to believe him! I will explain why.

I believe epiphany's happen. One happened to me. That is one of the reasons I am on the boards. It happened after a particularaly nasty arguement between my W & I (I'll spare you the details). As is my want, I went out of the house and "walked the fields". Only this time, instead of focusing on how angry I was with my W, I started to think about why / how the arguement started. I then started to think back about other arguements we'd had over the years. In those few hours that I was "walking" I started to see patterns in MY behavior that shocked me. I realized that if I kept up these patterns I could really endanger my marriage. By the end of this "walk" I vowed that I would NOT repeat these patterns and I would make changes for the better. I WOULD become a better husband to my wife.

That was a few years ago. IMHO our marrige has never been better than it is now.

That is my "ephipany" story. I truly hope something similiar happend with your WS.

You and your family are in my prayers. Whatever you decide to do!

Stay Strong!

The thing that is wierd is that he is much different this time than after the initial D-Day. I'll admit that I am curious as to how long it will last. The first time, he never really did show any remorse. I looked for it because I wanted it so badly. I think there was about a half a day of remorse. He seemed torn between what he wanted and what he knew was right. He was still distant. He was selfish. Now, I know why. Because he didn't intend to come back to our marriage.

Still, although he seems different, I am also different. I accepted whatever I could get back then.......... I demand more now. Maybe more than he is capable of giving. I don't know.

Plus, there is the whole other issue of how he hurt me. Seriously - 4 YEARS!!!!! It makes my stomach sick to think that a person can look me in the eyes every day for that long and knowingly lie to me. Use me. Betray me. Do those things to me knowing that I was giving everything I had to try and make the relationship improve. I don't know that I can get over that.

In the back of my mind, though, I know that I will HAVE to get over it at some point. Regardless of whether I stay married or not, I can't let the anger and resentment dictate my life. I know that I am entitled to my feelings for now, but as I look ahead, I also realize that I am going to have to find a way to deal with my feelings before I can achieve the happiness that I intend for my life.

All this talk about feelings and I don't even have any right now........ ironic, huh?

I have read this whole thing and waited and wondered about each new development/update.

I must say I am in awe of you and your strength right now! You have made such progress in a week. I love how you are now able to know what you want for yourself.

You seem so calm and determined. Keep up the good work.
Wow.

I started a long post last night then lost it. I will try again.

Okay, I understand that you are feeling different this time. It is odd how when one is willing the other isn't then it switches. How refreshing it is when both are on the same page at the same time. I would hate for you to miss an opportunity to have a restored marriage and family.

Pre-MB, aside from reading a bit in HNHN, after going through my H's 4 yr A with a couple of separations and false recoveries we reconciled and had at least a year of a honeymoon period. My H didn't understand the necessity for boundaries and still felt entitled to make whatever friends came his way. He didn't seem to understand about not befriending women or engaging in listening to women talk about their problems with relationships etc. I think he should have known better.

So, 2 yrs later he started another A which lasted 8 months with a different OW. (At first I suspected it was with the same OW) I was shocked that he didn't get it and allowed himself to get involved again in an A. It took me a while to figure it out. I felt a fool. All of a sudden at the start of the A he started being distant, disappearing for hours with lame excuses, picking little things to critcize me for, not engaging in conversation with me etc. When I was getting close to figuring it out we went on a 3 week trip to Europe. We had a great time until the last day when we were driving toward the city where we would spend the night before going to the airport the following morning. It got very stressful finding our way and we yelled at each other. He said I wouldn't listen or trust him to give directions...it was pretty lame really. I think that was an excuse to justify his preparing himself to go back to his A partner. Once home, he started drinking, staying out late without my being able to reach him. I put it together from the cell records (again!). Found out who it was and how they met.

I thought for sure I was done. I let him know that we would split everything up (we are in a no-fault state) and he can have her; we'd go our separate ways. I didn't want this anymore. I was devoid of the same kind of emotional turmoil as the last time except for the initial nausea...I was calm when I talked to him about it. He stupidly initially tried denial. i wouldn't buy it. I had found the MB website. A few weeks prior to my having proof I read about plan A and plan B.

I went to speak to our priest. He agreed to talk to him. The priest recommended a rational emotive counselor. We went to him for several sessions. He had us each read the book 'Three Minute Therapy'. He talked to my H about commitment and boundaries. At some point the light went on and he totally went NC, was completely remorseful, took the reigns in pushing for recovery. Meanwhile, I was still unsure, and felt that I would be seen as a fool or feel like a fool if I forgave him yet again. He continued to take the active roll. He read Surviving an Affair, and His Needs Your Needs. We went to the MB weekend.

It is now three years later and his is still as commited and reassuring of his love and devotion to our marriage and family. We are very happy together and do have a better marriage than ever before. We really have care and love for each other. We are recovered. Of course, there are no guarantees. Dr. Willard Harley says that we should ever trust our spouses 100%. I will say that most of the trust is restored...only due to his constant awareness to continue his reassurance. He never feels put upon...he is okay if he has a lifetime to prove his fidelity.

We will be married 30 yrs in July. We have been together 31 yrs. So there was a blip of several years of he!!. We learn and grow more in adversity than in easy times.

Our family is intact. I think we are better being together than had we DV. I am glad that we stayed married.

The choice is always yours. You have to live with yourself. You have every right to DV...or not, just as your counselor said it; he put it very well.

Dear WTW:

I can understand why you feel nothing right now. Sometimes the real facts hurt us too much. Your mind denies them, you go numb, because it is too painful for you. That happened to me after my H's A. I felt detached from everything. With time you can look at the facts closer, and your mind allows your true feelings to come out.

Within the past week you have found out, that your H continued his A and lied to you for four years. WTW, you and I have been through the initial As four years ago together. I can see myself in your position, and I can understand you so well. All of last week I have been thinking, how much it would hurt me to find out that my H would have lied to me for all this time.

The next big step after you found out about the continued A, was then that your H had his change of mind. Well, these two big events are enough -in my opinion to cause a major upset in everybody's mind.

I was very glad to hear, that you are tackling these huge challenges now with the help of your MC. From what you wrote, this MC has a very good approach and a good assessment of the current situation.

With all that said, here are some points I would like to bring upfor you to think about:

In the last four years I have learned a lot about As, about relationship dynamics. I read this wonderful quote: "In every relationship one person is the flower and one is the gardener". That is so true for many of us. Mostly the BS is the gardener, trying to make the relationship work, while the WS is selfish, in the center of attention, everything is about them. (I loved your statement how great it felt, that currently everything is about you -for a change).

My H changed to become the gardener after his A came out. He was remorseful, he courted me etc. Guess what...it didn't last. In our case the MC says that H's basic character will never change. And now we are back at our usual relationship pattern, where I try to keep things together and nice, and he is moody and takes and takes and takes without giving a lot in return.

The only way to change this pattern is to change my behavior. So last night I made him a nice hearty soup for dinner, waited fro him to come home late, lighted the candles and sat with him at the table- while he appreciated none of that. Then I cuddled up to him in bed and I got a coolish "I'm tired"...I got up and said that I was unhappy with the way he treated me and went to sleep in the guestroom. BAM, believe me I made a statement. This will put things in place for today, but after a couple of days it is back to the usual.

That exactly is my concern for you (and Cherished and myself and many others here). There are certain relationship patterns that are very hard, if not impossible, to change. We BSs have contributed to this pattern by not setting limits. I often ask myself if this is worth it. We are married to men, who are no givers, no gardeners.

Let's give your H the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is fighting now to keep you. What will happen once you are back in the M and he has the upper hand again. He has treated you so badly for so long - and didn't have a problem with that. I am afraid that as long as you are the one retreating and he has to chase after you, you'll be fine. But once things are back to normal, what then?

Your MC is right, you need time to figure out for yourself what you want. Any decision you make will be the right one. At one point I made a list and wrote down the advantages and disadvantages of divorce or stay together. When you sit down to make this list, you start to reflect on your situation and your feelings. Take the time to write. A list or a journal of your thoughts.

And stay strong. You realize now that you have that strength, right WTW? You have it in you and once you show it, others react to you differently. Whatever you decide, make one vow to yourself now: that you will never again allow anyone to treat you with disrespect.

I'll continue checking on you. I am worried about you, but somehow glad as well that one way or the other your situation will improve now.

Hugs,

That is just it, we can't let things get back to normal. We can't get complacent. We need periodic relationship tune ups and take assessment or take the temperature of the marriage.

We need to follow the 4 Rules of a Successful Marriage. We need to not be conflict avoiders. It takes awareness and effort. It isn't always easy.

No relationship will be always easy. Every relationship would require work. Sure there are low times or ebb and flow of moods. We need to change our old patterns and approach each other with care.

But, it has to be a commitment that both of you(us) make(s) to not allow the relationship to fall into those old patterns which we now know don't work.

It helped to work through the MB home study program together to be on the same page with the comprehension of these principles.

I had another session with the counselor this morning – by myself.

The reality here is that I am the one who has to make a choice – and there are really no good options. I am furious that I have been put in this position, truthfully. It is not fair. But, it is my reality. There are no guarantees and no right or wrong answers. Just several cluttered paths, none of which are really attractive at this point. Oh, don’t forget that I am pretty much standing in a fire right now, so staying where I am is not an option either.

Anyone else been here before? (add sarcasm to that statement)

I don’t want to make a choice. It is not easy. When I found out about the continued A, I was relived because I felt like WH had made my choice for me. However, his willingness to fight for the marriage put the ball back in my court. I am back to making the decision for myself. The only thing that I am sure of right now is that I will not stay in a relationship that is not happy and where I am not treated with respect. I just can’t see how to get that right now because I don’t trust anything.

It’s not that I don’t see happiness at the end of the path. I see a possibility for happiness at the end of several of the paths. I just don’t know whether they are real possibilities or illusions right now. Make sense?

It was nice to hear lots of the same philosophy from my counselor that I have read about from Dr. Harley. My MC talked about this being the worst possible type of situation since we are dealing with a LTA. He talked about setting boundaries. So many other things that many have you have brought up. I drew some comfort from that.

I just re-read my post above. It sure sounds dreary! I do not feel dreary - just confused. Releived that things are going to change, but confused about the best way to make the change happen.

My only comment would be that you cannot screw up this decision. Given where you are coming from, any decision that you are contemplating is going to be better than where you have been in the last years of your life.

WTW,
Why are you on the firing line? You don't have to make a decision right NOW do you? I don't know if this is acceptable but what if....WH moves out for a while, you go into plan B to remove yourself from some of this pain, let him work w/IC for awhile too, then let him prove his intentions and earn his way home IF that's what you want.

You've worked so hard...you need a break...why make permanent decisions while in all this turmoil?

W2W,
I just wanted to add, along with everyone else that I admire your strength. If I could have handled things they way you are at the beginning of my situation, I often wonder if things would have turned out differently.

I know with each D-day, I had a different reaction from my WH also. On Dday #1, I got the standard I love you but I'm not in love with you line. He was so confused, as he and OW had discussed a future together and he didn't know what to do. He wanted to "get over her" at his own pace he said. Well, HELLO, you need no contact for that to happen!!! I think that should be logical, whether you follow Dr. Harley's plan or not! He felt I wasn't being patient with him!!! It was a about 3 months before he could finally promise no contact. Well, NC didn't happen, since there were more d-days.

On Dday #2, I was sure he'd seen the light.
Shortly after #2, I had all the D papers filled out and I'd been working on getting a loan myself to get into a different house as a single mom.
He said he had some sort of revelation and woke up......So, I gave in and tried again. He even seemed remorseful, which was a change because after Dday #1, he said he was not sorry about the A because our marriage was in such a shambles anyway.

He always said he wasn't contacting her anymore (which would sort of be true for a few days while he said it) and seemed to be trying so hard to make himself accountable. He was addicted to her and since he has an addictive personality, when he tries to get rid of those demons, it never lasts long.

It went well for many months. Then I got an email from OW one day to let me know he'd emailed her. My world came crashing down again. I guess this would be D-day #3. To this day, he denies it was him because OW deleted the email and I couldn't show him any "proof." She said she tried to retrieve it from the "trash" but her account has an auto-empty thing every day.
I know it was him though, and he knows it was him. And of course OW knows it was him. I just don't know where that leaves us. A few more months have gone by again and I pretty much just wonder when it will happen again.

I think that what my WH learned from all of this was just to deny everything, no matter what and that what I don't know won't hurt me. I could be totally wrong on that and it may just be my bitterness talking.
As someone mentioned earlier, things can start to fall back into the old patterns so easily. I know that since all of this happened my WH and I do treat each other much better most of the time, but it really is easy to slip back into the old patterns occassionally.

I am wondering, for you, where does OW come in at this point? Have you talked to her? Maybe she dumped him.
For my situatuion, OW chose her BF over my WH after the A was exposed, and that added to his "saddness" and withdrawal. Yes, I feel second best and it is not a good feeling. OW never got to wake up next to his bad breath and wash his dirty underwear and hear his explosions when things don't go right. All she got to see was the charming side of him. She said she only saw his "horns come out" a couple times and obviously has no idea of his temper.
That's why I am wondering if you know what the OW's position is right now in all of this for your situation.

I don't understand why she would need to Plan B her H, since he in ending the A or has ended the A...or willing to do whatever necessary to save the M. I don't think that is what Plan B is meant to be used for. Yes, she can separate to get some breathing room but I don't see how that will help.

WTW,
I have been following your thread and I feel your pain. I wish the best for you and I understand how impossible your decisions are.

I just wanted to add a bit to what others have said about relationship dynamics. My H and I are doing great in so many ways in our recovery. We have been in MC/IC for nearly 2 years and I have to say we would have never made it without our MC.

What we are really working on now (besides dealing with sporatic triggers!), are issues that were in our marriage before my H affair. It is so hard to change PERMANENTLY many of the behaviors/beliefs each of you have.......even when you really, really want to! When we both are working at it and things are smooth, it is great. But as soon as a conflict emerges, we both sink back into old patterns and it is so discouraging to me. That is my biggest fear now. Not that the A will resume or he will do it again. My biggest fear is that we will slowly return to our prior state of marriage and all of the pain and heartache will be for nothing.

Now our marriage was not even in a terrible state before. I didn't really even know there was anything wrong, just a 20 year old marriage and life had taken alot from it. Obviously, I was wrong. Our MC has shown me how my H has really been all about him and his needs for the whole marriage and I am a conflict avoiding, psychotic Snow White pleaser. (He used psychotic just to show how far over from the center I have been. H is just as far over on the taker, me-me side.) But we always generally got along well and my H treated me well.

I know the difference now. I know what it can be and is becoming. But the permanancy of the changes seem so frail to me and THAT is my biggest fear. I often feel like I want to give up and just be the way that is confortable for me, but that is bad for our marriage. Engaging in conflict or sharing negative/unpleasant feelings with him causes me more pain and grief. If it wasn't for our MC pushing me along, I know eventually I would return to what was comfy for me.

I guess my very lengthy post is to validate what others have said about the difficulty in changing marital dynamics. Especially if you have been married for a long time. I am not saying it can't be done! I am praying that is not true! But I feel the pain and frustration at my OWN slow progress in change and question the strength of his.


Good luck! You have so many people rooting for you whichever decision you make.

I agree with the above, the affair has ended, so no need for plan b. There is no rush to make a decision. One day at a time. Continue MC and IC. Things will become more clear once you observe his ACTIONS, not words. You have set boundaries now. I hope he will change jobs. That would be at the top of my list. Actions, not words.

Anything is possible with love.

IcePrincess is right on !!!

she said:

You have all hit the nail on the head. The biggest issue that I have is the concern that things will eventually slip back to the way they were if I stay in the marriage. I didn't see it happening last time, so what if it happens and I don't see it again?

My counselor told me that there are no guarantees for anything. When I put him on the spot regarding how long it would be before I knew if WH was really willing to change, he told me that I should know in my heart within 6 months. If there has not been enough change in 6 months for me to feel comfortable and have some sense of trust, then I will probably never get there. So, do I give it 6 months? That is what I am pondering.....

He also reminded me that the work is really for WH to do right now. That if I decide to commit to the marraige, then the so-called 'burden of proof' is on WH. He said that he is empathetic to the WS's that he sees, but not sympathetic. He said that if I do stay, it MUST be with the understanding to WH that I will not tolerate any affair, mistreatment, or disrespect. That if WH does things without MY best interest at heart, then my commitment ends. He said that he and WH would have lots of things to work through and WH's willingness to do those things would be evidence of his commitment to me (or not).

He told me that the three things necessary for the foundation of a good marriage are trust, love, and commitment. Right now, I feel none of those. The question I must ask myself is 'can I have those with WH eventually and do I even want them with WH?'

I still do not have feelings. However, my counselor told me that he knows me well enough to believe that I do HAVE feelings, and that blocking them out is just my way of dealing with things right now. He said from my tone and my body language, he can tell that I am very angry. And he can tell from my eyes that I am very hurt. As I should be. But, for now, I am surviving. That is the best I can do.

You ROCK!

It sounds like you have a very good counselor.

You really sound good, all things considered.

I know you will recover whether or not you decide to stay in the marriage. I think you know this now too.

(((((WTW2)))))

You are starting on the road to rest of your life right now. Whatever direction that takes, it is better than the limbo h*11 you have lived through the past 4 years.

The grieving process is just beginning for you. Anger, resentment, sorrow - they will all have their places to help you heal.

Relationships can change. Mine has. I wish I could show a video of how our M was 5 or 6 years ago, then one of what it is like today. It is like night and day. Our basic personalities have not changed, but we have each dealt with our demons and come through with not only the willingness, but the desire to be a couple in every sense of that word.

I don't know if the same will hold true for you and your H. Given his current state, I hope it will. I hate to see anyone lost, and I'm afraid your H will be lost if he can't commit to deal with his issues this time.

Anyway, this is much longer than I intended. IF you decide to try to recover your M, I would once again encourage you to post some on the recovery board (as well as here, if you want), where the focus is on rebuilding the M after the A has ended, with 2 committed partners.

I'll keep you both in my prayers.

She sure does. Willingtowait, you are a remarkable woman.

Just wanted to ask again what you know about this. To me, it seems an important part of the whole picture. If you addressed this earlier and I missed it, I'm sorry.





I agree with your counselor and all the others that said you are blocking the feelings. It's purely adrenaline and you can't run on that forever! It sure helps to get through the days though, doesn't it?

W2W,

It is good your MC recognizes LTAs are different, and not just in duration.

There are a lot of similarities in our situations. Things seemed different with FWW after D-Day 2 compared to D-Day 1 too.

I had the same misgivings you do now. If FWW could cover up so well for so long, and I was so easy to fool for so long what makes the ultimate outcome any more predictable?

It is all on your H to demonstrate true and lasting change now. But I offer some experience for you to consider:

Now you know the truth, at least in outline. Now you can choose, and you need not be in a hurry to do it either.

Six months may not be enough time for your H to prove lasting, deep changes in himself and how he treats you and your marriage. LTAs change the WS in fundamental ways. Significant personality changes occur to a WS in an A for that long. These personal characteristics are not quite the same as serial cheaters or SA spouses possess. But they are as hard to change and the changes take longer than six months to mature.

Your best bet is to watch and wait. IMO, the better gauge is to evaluate how much strenuous effort he is putting into his moral and spiritual growth for those six months and then see how well it takes root for another six months.

Be prepared for broken NC. It will happen. That long of a relationship causes huge withdrawal. FWW fell off the NC wagon a number of times the first six months. But she climbed back on each time. Broken NC with email was not a deal breaker for me as long as she tried harder after each time.

Interfere in the LTA from the OW end as much as you can. She is not going to give up the LTA any easier than WH will. I recommend nuclear exposure. In my case, confronting OM threw a big monkey wrench in the LTA. But this takes nerves of steel and a realization you have nothing to loose.

As JL told me more than once, all you need to agree to at the moment is to try to recover. You have at least as long as the LTA lasted to make a final decision one way or the other. Be sure to tell him this, too. Lay it all on the table with MC help. No need to keep a hole card any more (well, except for your sources and methods, such as the GPS. Keep that to yourself.)

I do not recommend separating during this time. If you separate, you will not be able to accurately gauge his changes, if any. You will not be able to detect NC as well either. But, IMO, separating for a while is better than punishing him. You will make no progress if your anger is uncontrollable every time you look at him.

Lastly,

“Oh, don’t forget that I am pretty much standing in a fire right now, so staying where I am is not an option either.

Anyone else been here before? (add sarcasm to that statement)”

Look at it this way. You are standing amid smoking ruins. Your feet may be getting hot, but there is no longer an open flame that will burn you. Your H OTOH is immersed in boiling oil. If he wants to survive he will have to climb out of the vat. How much of a hand you give him, and when you offer that hand, is entirely up to you now.

Added: But don't reach over and turn the temperature control down for him either.

With prayers,

OW....... I have not talked to her, nor do I want to at this point. WH indicated that she is upset that the relationship ended, but that they both realized it had to. When I asked him about her, WH told me that he feels sorry that she got hurt by all this, but that he does not feel love for her. He said he hopes that she is able to find someone to share her life with and is happy at some point.

That is really all I wanted to hear about so far. I know I will want more as time goes on, but right now I can only take it in small doses.

OK. But, I still recommend exposure on her end, if you can manage it and if she has people to expose to (like superiors at work).

I suppose I sound like a broken record, but LTAs reignite at an alarming rate. Exposure even after the current phase of the LTA has ended (claimed to be ended, in reality) is very strong insurance.

And if WH resents any exposure on her end? Well, that’s a data point for you to record in itself.

Just a suggestion...I defer to others with more experience. I just thought a separation would give WTW a little space to heal and protect any further withdrawls from love bank, to be sure WH will invest in "true" recovery instead of a "false" recovery.

WTW...it seems your IC is on the money. I feel your pain...its been almost a year since my D-Day w/ no real recovery in sight...the thought of this lasting 3 more years, I can't even imagine.

IMHO, I don't like this attitude. After months of using hysterics, suicide threats, and pathetic begging to keep my FWH active in the affair, FWH broke it off anyway. The first couple of contacts following the break-up (emails and calls to his office) were successful on OW part -(i.e., he responded) because of his feeling sorry because he hurt her.

This still annoys me. I made sure he understood in no uncertain terms that her discomfort and unhappiness in the sitch were HER OWN DOING. She chose to become involved with a MM. SHe gambled that she would be able to convince him to leave me for a life with her. He chose to become involved with her with no intention of leaving me. The only one who never had a choice was me! He felt horrible guilt for hurting me, and further guilt for hurting her as well, but I guarantee she didn't care one bit about what the affair did to me.

What my FWH figured out over a fairly short time once NC was in place was that she had soundly manipulated him. Initially, she manipulated him into the affair, and once he was in, she manipulated him to remain in. It was very difficult for him to deal with both the shame of having hurt me and the shame that OW had been in control of him for so long. As he analysed her behavior from afar, all pity and compassion disappeared quickly.

I agree with the others here. You must expose her now to the school and your husband must change jobs. If they still work in the same school, there will be contact.

WHO

All of our minute details that form our experiences my differ somewhat. Not all WH or WW react the same as they end their A's.

I wonder if there are differences in how men and women respond when they go through withdrawal or if the differences I'm reading about here are just as different as we all are as individuals as opposed to by sex.

Maybe there are just certain kinds of people that we each would tend to not tolerate as much as we would others. Kind of like those wife swap type shows. We all have our idiosyncrasies, both positive and negative. We all seem to project from our own experiences.

I do agree Trix.
As we all read the posts here, I think certain statements ignite memories of details of our own situations -- and we all chime in with what we would do, or what happened in our situation!
But it's true, even though it all boils down to infidelity, every A is different in the dynamics of it all. Just as different as we are as people, male or female.

Suzy

It is an interesting study of humanity here at MB, that is for sure. I keep learning...

I bought a few new books last night...... just felt like I needed to read some more material. I bought The Monogamy Myth and Surviving Infidelity .

I already have all of Harley's books, Torn Asunder, Private Lies, Love Must be Tough, and After the Affair.

Are there others that anyone would suggest? I just feel the need to know everything that I possibly can.....

One of my favorites is "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands". But it sounds like you have read enough.

OW = volunteer --- NOT victim

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6080_buyer.html

GREAT BOOK !!!!

One of my new favs

Dear WTW:

you are in a frenzy of activity right now. Reading more books will not bring you the insights that you are looking for. All the answers are already inside of you. I would suggest that you slow down. Slow down a lot...

Take a moment and stop. Just try to open your mind and stop the facts from spinning around you. Take a walk in the park alone by yourself. Sit on a bench in the winter sun and try to find your balance again.

You have to deal with so much right now. Take it in little steps. Reflect on your thoughts and feelings. Allow yourself time away from your daily hectic schedule to do this. It is all about you right now.

You are in my thoughts.

Hugs,

You will not find much about LTAs in any of the books you have.

I really do recommend at least one session with SH or Penny Tupy of SYMC (aka: Cerri on MB, and Harley trained). You need information and advice you will not find on these forums, nor in these books, to deal with an adultery that has been going on for more than twice as long as the typical run-of-the-mill two-year A and has every indication of continuing in background until your children grow up and move away, and then some.

They helped me - not just in how to break up the A but how to recover from it. I lost over ten years of my life and half my M to an LTA. I did not think it possible to recover anything, M or personal. I did not think my W could ever be reclaimed from her personality issues and the unethical person she had become over such a long time, living such an all-encompassing double life. Believe me, LTAs are not just an extraordinary A, they have become a normalised lifestyle for the WS.

The various posts about all A's and the way they are handled by WS and BS being unique are true, in general. However, there are certain kinds of A's that bunch up, for the lack of a better word, in the way they pan out.

We have all read about the WS handbook, right? They act so similar, robotic almost.

We have all seen the similarities in foggese, right? They have such predictable scripts even though the nouns and objects may vary.

One cannot read on MB for more than a month or so before noticing how it all tends to endlessly repeat itself, right?

On top of this, certain As are somewhat tightly constrained wrt the personalities of the WS and the OP. Certain As evolve, no matter how they started, into settled lifestyles that when examined in detail show very little dispersion in how they were conducted and the basic attitude and personality of the WS. LTA’s are one of these categories.

There is information you need about what to expect from WH and OW (a lot more lies and subterfuge and stonewalling and broken NC) but mostly about what to expect from yourself. LTAs take a long time to recover from, whether you D or not. Just think of the resentment you will carry from multiple D-Days and the years and years of lies and emotional abuse fed to you so the A could remain uninterrupted.

LTAs require a lot more personal effort and a lot more time to get past than the two-year standard for garden variety adultery.

Talk to an expert, not just forum members about this.

With prayers,

WTW,

Agree with Iceprincess. Go ahead and take your time. FWH has had four years of HIS time. Now is YOUR time so enjoy being the one who gets to decide....finally.

Who

...hmmm. He doesn't get it yet.

You are receiving terrific advise about moving forward with caution.

BOOKS

I have a great respect for SHIRLEY GLASS. She has made a study of the role of affairs in contemporary life.Her attitude seems to be that affairs will happen and that there are certain situations which allow affairs to develop.... particularly in the workplace as in your hs case.

If you can see a pattern in the behavior then you are able to understand how it works and therefore be more capable of dealing withi it when it happens.

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, but this is a view from over 4 years out from a successfully recovered marriage:

Your H needs to put up iron clad boundaries right now - you are now the "insider" and the OW is the "outsider" instead of the other way around. There is absolutely no room in your M for another person.

That being said, however, I see a couple of positives from his comment about feeling sorry for the OW. First of all, he is being open and honest with you (scores big points on my board). He could have said what you want to hear and weasle around like he's been doing to protect himself. But instead you got an open and honest view into his feelings. If he is doing a 100% turn around here, you are going to hear lots of things that hurt. One of the first major steps I had to take in order to recover our M was to allow my H to be honest without consequences from me. I can't ask him to share his feelings then blast him for them if they aren't what I want to hear. And vice versa. You both need to feel safe sharing with each other.

Secondly, in the long run I would not want to be involved with a person who can have a 4 year relationship then simply walk away with no remorse, no sympathy, no guilt for the pain caused ALL AROUND. Yes, I agree with Pepperband 100% - the OW was a volunteer, not a victim. But she is still a human being (as much as we all would like to think of our OP as subhuman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) and he will also have to come to terms with the pain he caused EVERYONE - you, your children, himself, the OW, friends, extended family, etc. IMHO, if he is going to ask to be forgiven and ever be able to forgive himself, he needs to be forgiven for ALL the pain his selfishness has caused.

If typical, your H will probably go through stages of feelings about the OW. Later on he will probably spend some time hating her before indifference eventually sets in, which, to me is the ultimate goal. Not thinking about her, not caring about her, not even any awareness of her existance.

Of course he has a long way to go - you both do - but I see this as a sign that reinforces the fact that he is now willing to be honest with you.

Well - it has taken me all morning just to get the motivation to get out of bed. It is not that I feel tired, just not motivated. Thank goodness WH offered to take the kids to the birthday party that they were invited to. Gave me some much needed time alone without any obligations pressing.

This evening, I have a "Miss America" party to attend at the home of one of my girlfriends - just for girls. A reason for ladies to get together without husbands or kids and have fun with 'pagent antics!' I am ready for the night out - having none of this bother me for a few hours.

About WH's comments regarding OW - I agree with lots of what you said, been_there. I WANT WH to say that had doesn't care about what happens to her. But, I also know that is not reality. I don't believe that someone can have a relationship and not care what happens to the other person. I am glad WH is honest with me about what he is feelings - at least I hope he is. I still don't know that I can believe anything he says.

He does seem to understand that there are many, many people who have been hurt by this. For right now, though, he only seems concerned about the effect on me. I guess that is what he views as the biggest injustice. I agree.

Hey there,
Your party tonight sounds like a grand idea and a very good thing for you right now. You need to be pampered and enjoy yourself.

I agree you have been served the largest injutice. I am glad he sees that too.

Have a great time tonight.

Which is exactly how it should be.

If this was truly his turning point, as time goes on the awareness of all the ripple effects of the hurt he has caused will begin to seep in. It's a really hard thing for a remorseful WS to live with once that comprehension hits, and, I would guess, one of the critical points in breaking away from a LTA. A choice to allow that pain to be felt and processed or deciding there's no redemption, so what the h*11, go back to being scum and numbing it.

Have a super great time at your party tonight. M or not, A or not, girlfriends are forever!

OK, I've read almost all of the posts to this awful situation and I must put my two cents in. My ex left me for his stepmother, (yes, stepmother!) after I survived his first affair. We, of course, divorced. I just wanted to say this- there are some people in this world that are so cruel and selfish that they only want what they cannot have. I have seen men over and over again fall all over themselves to get back together with their ex just at the moment their ex decides to leave them. Only until their ex shows no interest do they come around with this "revelation" and want nothing more than to get back together with them. The loving, interested and sometimes desperate wife is boring to them and they do not appreciate having them until they are gone.
Since this is his second (or continuing) affair, he may be one of these people. I've noticed that since you became disgusted and finished with this man's actions, he suddenly turned sweet and interested. I'm not saying that he can't change this, but be very, very careful because just about the time you relax and start loving him again, he may get bored and start treating you with disrespect and disinterest. He desperately needs counseling but not at your expense.
You can test this to see if he has this problem. If you can stand it, just try acting like you are interested and loving and see how long it takes him to revert back to his cruel self. This will tell you whether he is genuine or whether he just wants want he can't have. Your disinterest to him is intoxicating to him.
As for your children and your guilt over this, just remember that you are teaching your children by example to let people mistreat them and one day they may be allowing someone to treat them with cruelty, too. You have to show them that you must have standards and that you can't let other people cross those lines. You don't want them to suffer like you have.
Fortunately, there is hope. I am now remarried to a man that is everything I ever wanted. I never dreamed long ago that I would ever be happy again. When I divorced, I made up my mind that I would accept only what I deserved. You must do the same whether it is with this husband after MUCH counseling, with someone else down the road, or maybe even with just by yourself.
Just remember that God is the only one who can see into your husband's heart and knows his true motives. Keep praying and asking God for direction. If you try to choose yourself, it is a gamble. Don't forget,too, that God Himself says that divorce is ok in this situation. Good luck and God Bless!

WTW2,

I’ll be fading out again, because Life is standing in my office door waving her arm at me calling “been_there, come out and play”! So this redneck woman is gonna go yell Yee-Haw for awhile.

Remember – people who DON’T EVEN KNOW YOU, like me, are lifting you and your family up in prayer.

All the best.

Did the Friday night "poker" game get cancelled this week?

No poker game on Friday night this week. It was a wierd night - WH wanted us to all do something together, but I could not get past the fact that it was Friday night. I just kept thinking that maybe he wanted to be somewhere else (with OW) instead. He insisted that was not true....

We had a busy weekend. For some reason, though, I just can't enjoy anything. I feel somber all the time - devoid of ANY emotions - good or bad. I just want to stay in bed watching a sappy Lifetime movie and eat ice cream. WH keeps asking me what is the matter and I honestly can't say. It was so different for me last time I went thru this....

I want to feel things again - I want to have an interest in what is going on around me. I want to enjoy things. I just don't right now. I know..... it hasn't been long and I need time to process everything that has happened. But, I can't just 'exist' and that is what I feel like I am doing right now.

WH is really trying hard to show me that he loves me and wants to repair our relationship. It is wierd, honestly. I am so used to giving and not receiving in this relationship, that it feels strange to be on the receiving end. I don't have anything to give right now, either.

I have another appointment with our counselor this week. Hopefully, I will have a better idea about what I want to do by that time. I still have not 'decided' - although I think about it all the time. I have started to feel like every day that I stay here I get a little more hope that our marriage can work. However, I am still afraid to believe that, too. I am afraid that by not doing anything - like separating - I am simply being ambivalent. I am afraid that things will eventually slip back to the way they were before. I am afraid that the cycle will repeat - that I will settle for less than I deserve and that WH will have another affair. I WANT our marriage to work - I like the person that WH has been this week. I can't say that I feel any love, but I think I probably could somewhere down the road. But, as soon as I start to let myself think about that, the fears overtake me again. So, I stay 'on the fence.'

I feel like I am babbling....... I guess that is representative of how I feel inside. Too many things going on and I can't manage to make sense of any of it.

Thanks to everyone for your continued prayers. I know that it is only by the grace of God that I have made it this far.

Dear Willing,
Some times I take such comfort from the words "be still and know that I am God." Maybe this is your be still time. There is no need to rush into a decision.

Thanks for posting and letting us know how you are.

They talk about the WS fog, but the BS fog is just as real. Maybe it is more of a life in limbo, but whatever it seems sometimes like you are on the outside looking in through some very dingy glass.

Hang in there. Know that in all this there is One who holds you in His hands, Who sees the picture clearly.

blessings

Willing2Wait2: I've not slept tonight and came online. I have spent some time reading this thread. I am amazed at your ability to cope. I am touched by those who have stayed by your side, giving you heartfelt advice. Your story has obviously touched many.

I understand the numbness, the flatline. It's a coping mechanism, one that is serving you well right now. But, yes, you will have to deal with the feelings when they erupt.

Can I make one suggestion? Perhaps you should visit your Dr. and see about getting on an anti-depressant for awhile. You've got a lot on your plate, and meds might help you through the rough spots to come.

I'd be wary about your husbands quick turnaround. If he turns that quickly, he can "turn back" again. Accountability is important, make sure he stays in that mode.

And, it's just a hunch, but I think he knew that you knew (if you know what I mean). I have hesitation in believing that he went to a funeral and his whole resolve changed. Sure, it's possible, I just have some doubts here. Even if he only "sensed" that you "might" know, his confession may not have really been totally voluntary.

I'll keep reading this thread, and routing for you.

Just thinking of you. Hope you have a good day. Jersey Girl

Hang in there, Willing. Our thoughts are with you.

Post deleted

1)hire attorney
2)hire forensic accountant
3)he's funneling money somewhere...maybe to the il'
s?
4)may be trying to sell home for a profit
5)may use angle of your supposed "depression" as grounds to counter his adultery and try to angle for custody...

how do I know? my xh did the same thing.

what I did NOT have was number 2 on my side. my xh incidentally employs his parents. they WORK FOR HIM...and they turned tables on ME too.

watch out for them.

be wary, loving but wwary.

and if you can get my email, I will gladly talk to you offline about some stuff. orchid, losthusband, greengables, and a few here have my email.

Dear WTW,

I'm so sorry that you are going through so much pain right now. You are definitely numbing out your emotions. Unfortunately, when you numb out the darker ones, you also numb out your ability to feel the more enjoyable ones too. I know...I'm a pro...LOL!

Right now you are doing just fine, but as you get a little more energy, I'd suggest you write out a letter to your H expressing how you really feel. I don't express anger easily either. Once in early recovery, my H told me that I was being mean to him. Well...I wasn't. I was being truthful and also extremely loving at the same time. He was dealing with the consequences of his own crap and once again, blaming me for the pain it was causing him. Well, then I really WAS angry and I didn't censor it. I raked him over the coals verbally for about 10 minutes. It started with, "Do you want to see me be mean?", and ended with him on the floor in a fetal position. It wasn't pretty and I wasn't proud of it, but it was a very necessary part of me finding my anger.

Now I have learned to express my anger without an outburst. Before I just stuffed it to avoid the outburst. I learned to do that at a very young age because I had an abusive father. I was punished for being angry. I think that we tend to think that our H's also punished our anger by having their affair(s) at times.

The other day, my H was feeling very poorly and had been for weeks. I reminded him that we were supposed to leave town on Thursday and requested that he see the doc on Monday since he was off work. He didn't want to do it (and I don't blame him...he needed a rectal exam and was already in pain in that area) and so he didn't go. Well, Thursday rolled around and he ended up having to go to the doctor that morning. Then the doc didn't want him leaving town because he was worried it was something serious. We had to wait around for the surgeon to call for most of the day and finally go the okay to leave (we were just going 1 1/2 hours away).

Now, don't get me wrong, I have lots of empathy for what my H is going through. I've taken care of him and done my best by him. However, I was still angry that he didn't go to the doctor when I asked him to simply because I knew instinctively that this was going to happen. When he came home from the doctor, I told him that I was very sorry that he was feeling so poorly, asked him about the appointment, etc. Then I said, "I need to say something outloud in order to not build resentment. I asked you to go on Monday and you didn't. I understand why you didn't, but I am still angry that you didn't do it then. This little trip was very important to me and I had let you know that all week. Now I've said my piece and I'm fine."

He got pretty down after I said that. I explained that I simply needed to say it. I said that it was better for our relationship for me to state it clearly and move on than to just stuff it. He agreed, but said he felt really bad about not going on Monday. I thanked him for that and told him I was over it and we could move on. I simply needed to express my anger....not even in an angry way. I just needed to give it a voice. Once I did, I was fine and could go back to helping him and caring for him.

Anyway, all of that to encourage you not to stuff your anger. Write it out, even if you don't ever show the letter to him (or at least the extremely "mean" version...lol). The nice thing about writing is that it is much easier to use those "I" statements than in the heat of a discussion.

Hang in there and keep taking care of yourself. Right now you are wounded. You ARE the victim in all of this and it's okay to embrace that. Later, when you are ready, you will move to the "survivor" section. For now you need to nurse your wounds without reservation.

Hugs,

Stillwed

Justpeachy

It sounds like your post is meant for Heidi.

Trix –
(I happened to catch your post while it was still there..... glad I did!)

I think that you were able to put into words some of the things that have been swirling around in my head. It makes more sense when I can read it in a manner that has some sense of order. Thanks for that!

First, I am still quite bewildered by the fact that the A went on for 4 years right under my nose. I am disappointed in myself because there were always things that I was uncomfortable with, yet I let them continue. I feel like I should have known. I just wanted recovery so bad that I chose to believe things that were not true. Things that I knew deep down inside were not true. But, I believed that accepting what WH told me was my part of recovery and I thought I was doing the right thing. Now, I feel stupid. Stupid that I let him get away with it. Add that to the betrayal and there is a lot of pain for me to deal with right now. I don't want to spend too much time wallowing in it, though. I feel like I am missing out on my own life like this - things are passing me by and I don't even care. I don't WANT to feel like this - I don't like it. I hope that IC can help me start to break through it when I see him this week.

WH has been totally open and honest regarding everything I ask about the A. I only ask in small doses, because there is only so much that I even want to know right now. He has been able to discuss some of the feelings and reasons that were behind his behavior and he never did that in the past. I expect that these are more of the issues that we will deal with through MC.

At this point, our counselor has not started IC with WH yet. The concern has been to help me deal with the shock and come to a decision about which way I will commit – to the marriage or to divorce. After that, counseling for both of us (IC and MC) will proceed in the appropriate manner.

He has not changed jobs, although there is a plan to make it happen at the end of this school year. Until then, he has made changes in his schedule and daily routine so that there is no contact with OW.

I honestly believe that I do want my marriage to work. I want to try because I like the person that WH is trying to be right now. I want my family to be whole and I want to raise my children in a trusting and loving family environment. I want a relationship that makes me feel happy and safe and loved.

But, I am afraid. I am afraid of getting hurt again. I am afraid to trust my own judgment – afraid that things I see as progress are not what they seem. I am afraid that things will eventually drift back to the way they were before. I am afraid that I might be settling for less than I deserve. I know that there are no guarantees for anything in life, but right now it is scary to run toward something that has already hurt me so badly.

My IC said that I should have some foundation of trust and feelings of love within about 6 months if I choose to work on the marriage. I am starting to feel like I can give it 6 months. I also find it a little ironic that WH is exhibiting all the behavior changes that I desperately wanted last time, yet now they don’t seem enough. I think that I have been so set on getting a change, that I might just be missing the one going on around me already.

So, that is where I am today. I hope that when I tell WH all these thoughts, that his reaction will help me settle on what to do. If he remains willing to try and make this a relationship that is fulfilling for both of us – to go to MC, work on boundaries, spend time with me, etc. – then I will commit to try and make our marriage work for both of us, too.

Thoughts, anyone?

WW, if you think you might hang in there, I would give it more than 6 months. The 6-12 month mark is the hardest for many, when the shock and relief wears off and the fury sets in. I wanted to "dump the scumbum" from 8 -12 months. After that, I began to feel feelings of love and respect for him.

I realize you are afraid to trust your own judgement, but that is because you DIDN'T in the past. You afforded undeserved trust to an untrustworthy person, thinking this was what you owed to your marriage. This is what has to change this time around, if you decide to keep him. He must PROVE his trustworthiness and commitment to the marriage this time. Had he not received such undeserved trust before, he might not have gotten away with this.

My point is NOT to make you feel bad for trusting him, but to point out that your instincts were probably RIGHT all along and that you can trust your judgement. You just can't trust *HIM* until he earns it.

Personally, I do hope you give him another chance if you think you can overcome the resentment. I know it will be hard, but if you are convinced he is sincere, then I think you have a good chance. If you decide to keep him, I would only suggest that you insist he leave his job and send the OW the no contact letter from SAA.

Hang in there, girl, we are all pulling for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I am glad it wasn't perceived as too harsh. I feel in the minority here and I lack the confidence that I have the 'right' words to express my thoughts.

All I can say is that 3 yrs post last D-day I am happy I made the decision to stay married. My H's resolve has only grown stronger in these last three yrs...but that is my H not yours. Time will tell. 6 months may be enough to know. But that will just be near the end of the school year and some contact is likely during that time. I think that it is risky but if he is determined it may work for him.

We did have our discussions on the details of the A in small doses as you are doing and it worked fine. At some point I accepted that I had asked and reasked enough and had to let it go.

I did have my times (during PMS) when I would be triggered and blow up. He took it and responded in a loving way instead of reacting in kind. All of his actions added to reassure me of his devotion and helped to rebuild trust.

There were many times where I second guessed my sanity in giving him another chance. I wondered if it was even a good example for my kids. All in all, it has been.

I would hope for a similar outcome for you....of course life isn't over yet. It may be a life long journey of growth and discovery.

Melodylane is right about the 6-8 months in recovery. It really takes about 18 months to get beyond the triggers etc. It is lots better at 2 yrs. But it all depends on the actions your H continues to display. Hope he has the resolve, stamina, and commitment. If so, it can all be worth it.

I don't think that my counselor meant that things would be 'recovered' in 6 months...... I think he just meant to say that I should have a firm foundation of feelings in 6 months regarding whether WH really has changed and whether I feel like we are capable of having a loving relationship again.

Re-read Mel's post. She didn't think that you would be recovered in 6 months. It is just that at 6-8 months there can be a bubbling up of anger so that your feelings at that point may not be a good judge. Your recovery could be going well but there seem to be patterns that many of us experienced while still making good recovery progress.

Hopefully, at 6 months there will be the foundation for recovery and you will see the potential and your H's actions will match his words.

sorry..post is meant for heidi...

WW, I will tell you what you may be thinking in about 6 months, no matter how well your H does. You will probably be thinking something along the lines of: "why oh why did I settle for this bum? I am such a CHUMP!"

I agree that you should make a decision based on his actions, but it might not be a good idea to go by your feelings at that point. Your feelings won't be anywhere close to grounded by then; you will still be experiencing dramatic emotional swings. You have suffered a major shock and it will take 12-18 months to recover.

What I told our MC:
"I will see how it goes for 6 months."

What I said after the first 6 months had passed:
"I will see how it goes for the next 6 months."

I was NOT ready to commit the rest of my life after 6 months, but I was willing to stay for another 6 months ...

Just so you know, you can piece-meal this if you need to, take recovery in bite sizes YOU determine you can handle.

and if WH doesn't like it ~~~> [color:"blue"] tuff beans [/color]

W2W,

Have been away from the site for quite awhile, but read you post. Most of it anyway, and all your entries. I just wanted to say It is definately possible your WH has truly realized he needs and loves you. After 17 years of taking my W for granted it happened to me, and 18 months later nothing has changed I still adore her.

Anyone with kids knows how tough this is. This doesn't just affect you, and after reading your posts I know they will play a huge factor in your decision.

I will also take care of your GPS/Spy post for you. You have enough to deal with. It should be up tomorrow.

hang in there, your doin great!

Just a thought.... please remember that depression is anger turned inward. Your counselor will help you get the anger out where you can deal with it. Give yourself time- this lasted for 4 years and it will take a long, long time to get over this, with or without him! Take good care of yourself and indulge yourself for a while. You would pamper yourself if you had a bad case of the flu but now your HEART is broken and sick so pamper it, too.

Can I ask if you have considered a separation? I would think that you would need some time for your own peace of mind, time to attend to your needs, not his, and time alone with God for direction.

Dear WTW:

that you are feeling so numb now is a defense mechanism (Please stop eating that icecream o.k.? Icecream is not FDA approved as treatment for depression because of its serious side effects. The enormous weight gain has been demonstrated in large population based studies (I don't know where they are hiding the graemlins these days-but I would like to put my favorite "roll-eyes" here!!!). Did you smile a little? Don't eat your kids' icecream, pleaaase.

Dear friend, I wish I could sit down with you and chat. You wrote,that you are afraid things will revert to "the usual", afraid H will change again, afraid of another A. I can tell you how it was for me: after 4 years , sometimes I still can't sleep,because I get these fears, that border on panic attacks (and H has done nothing in 4 years to let me think that another A is going on).

I can relate to what you are experiencing now: H is treating you nice,but that makes it even harder for you to trust. I still have severe problems enjoying our truly wonderful times together. I still can't trust and I get even more scared to loose him when things are wonderful. I have kept my feelings for him in check for all these years and only very gradually do I allow myself to open up. The IC has done nothing to help me with that. It is a very slow, gradual process of recovery. It is the BSs individual recovery. This happens separately from your H's recovery and from your recovery as a couple. You have been through so much more than me, WTW. Just take your time for everything now. Your MC and H want to hear a decision from you, the numbness is telling you that you are not ready to decide. So? Tell them exactly that: I don't know what I want to do.

Usually we make decisions based on facts. You don't have any facts only promises from your H. Promises are empty words if they are not backed up by real actions.

One of my golden pearls in dealing with As and recovery is: Future behavior is based on past behavior. (Unless a real change takes place in a WS's character). I am giving your H the benefit of the doubt. Bt he is the one on probation here. He needs to make up for a lot of damage and pain. There are no more excuses, no more selfish behaviors allowed. AND after setting your boundaries watertight (no more unexplained absences on any day, complete openness, no more claims of privacy) you may see that he neede just that: Boundaries, limits. You may find that he'll do well with that.

WTW: put away the icecream, otherwise I am not talking to you anymore [IP crossing her arms and stomping her foot on the floor]. I remember how you told me four years ago how the A made loose you weight and you looked very good, remember...

Hugs,

WTW,

It sounds like you have make some good progress. I understand the numbness too. In a way, it is a self-protective condition.

I think you should go ahead and say "yes, quit your job" and see what happens. That will be a good test of his seriousness.

And if he blinks - and delays or hesitates ... expose to the school. I think it would be best to notify multiple people - say the principle, the superintendent and one or two school board members - especially ones that don't like the principle or don't like the superintendent. If you expose only to the principle it might get swept under the rug. Ideally both of them will lose their jobs. That will make him scramble. The intention is not to be mean, but simply to be sure that they can have no excuse to work together again - and that if they have to work out the school year - people will be watching.

And... I think you should listen to Aphelion.

-AD

IP –
You are TOTALLY cracking me up!!!! Rest easily…..my kids actually ate all the ice cream and I promise not to buy any more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I really did think it was an approved method for dealing with depression, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I had a talk with WH this morning. He was very open about answering some questions I had about things that have happened in the past and things about the A. It was painful for him, but I think he was honest.

I know that the best thing for our children would be for us to have a loving and happy marriage that would keep our family together and provide a firm foundation and a positive example for them. I also know that I deserve to spend my life with someone who wants the best for me – who loves me and respects me.

I am really leaning toward giving this a chance. I have an appt with my counselor this afternoon and I hope that he can help me sort thru my feelings. I do believe that I need to get out of ‘limbo’ at some point – as long as I don’t commit one way or the other, there is not much possibility of progress. And, I am ready to move ahead. I am tired of being where I am. It is depressing and not fun here.

That is where I am today. I told WH in plain and firm terms that there are conditions to my willingness to work on the marriage. 1. I will NOT tolerate another A. No exceptions. If it happens, I am done. Peroid. Exclamation point. End of discussion. 2. We must go to counseling as long as deemed necessary AND do what MC tells us to do. 3. He must move back to my bedroom when I am ready to have him. 4. We must spend time together as a couple – without the kids. He enthusiastically agreed to these things. But, the true test will come over time when he has to actually do these things.

I’ll check back later and let you know what comes out of my appt with IC.

Have a great day! WTW