I've been reading and applying some of the experience and advice on this site to my own situation but now feel I need to reach out.

My wife said she "hit the point of no return" and wanted a divorce after 12 years of marriage about 3 months ago.

My story is very similar as many of the husbands here. I didn’t destroy our marriage by booze, gambling, abuse or infidelity. I destroyed it by ignoring my wife's emotional needs. I was too busy working and building a multimillion dollar business. I now realize that I sacrificed my marriage, and am willing to do anything to save it.

Ever since that night three months ago, I have dramatically modified my actions and realigned my priorities to make her the most important person in my life. According to her own accounts, she says that I am now doing everything she could ever have hoped for in terms of domestic/household stuff, our sex life, affection and conversation.

Here is the problem: She said that on that night three months ago she crossed this emotional line and "lost her heart". Since then she has wrote off any hope of loving me ever again. She got into internet sex chat and found that it meets a lot of her needs for conversation and openness. She tells me that she gets this amazing sense of power and complete acceptance from it. She got in pretty deep with a fellow on the net....but says she never has had anything physical with him. I found out about it and she promised to stop, but she keeps doing it even after I find out about it again and again.

I still love her and want our marriage to work, but she says there is too much pain. She hates that I am "everything she wanted for 12 years" now that it's too late. She hates that I look on her computer and see all the graphic sex chat in the emails.

A few nights ago she said she wanted to go through with filing for divorce and if within the six months she "finds her heart" we can stop it. The finality of ending our marriage would be on her radar screen which she says gives her a sense of peace.

I finally had a long hard cry following that conversation and realized for the first time that I may have lost my wife. Afterwards I felt a peace I haven’t felt in a long time.

I think I am accepting that she really could be gone and even though there is an incredible sadness...I know that I will be okay.

Despite her repeated requests for me to move out, and my repeated replies that she can move if she wants...she remains in our home. She is quite worried about her reputation being tarnished now and worried that I will fight the divorce. I still deeply respect her as my best friend and the mother of our 8 yr old daughter, so even though I've told her many times that she has nothing to worry about financially and otherwise, she is afraid.

She is going to a relationship awareness workshop in Houston this weekend to try and find her heart. So on one hand she sends the message that she wants to work on things, but on the other hand she wants to do her own thing and she doesn’t want me to have any expectations of her staying in the marriage or ending this internet affair.

I want to keep making deposits in our relationship to keep some hope alive, but at the same time I get the feeling that I should just let her go and let her do whatever she wants.

How can I do both? Should I do both? When is it time to let her go?

Thanks for listening.

MCM

Are you sure she isn't using the "relationship awareness workshop" as an excuse to turn her EA into a PA?

Are you certain that OM is not going to be meeting her in Houston? Her timing and threats seem perculiarly aligned with this trip to supposedly help save your marriage.

You are correct do not leave your house.

You are incorrect to make her secure in her financial comfort should she decide to divorce you.

You need to keep a journal of your current activiites relating to stopping her inappropriate addiction and the care you are providing daughter as a fogged out wife usually makes you take over everything so they can have their addiction. This journal you will use in court if and when you fight for at the very least primary custody and to remain in your home. Take over as much as you can and have arrangements in place for full custody or in the event she walks out.

A possible solution. Take the computers out of your house. Remove them or lock them up. You can not work on your mattiage until you bust up the affair. She will say anything and treaten anything to maintain her addiction. Don't be sold. You are an experience salesperson I presume so you should know what I mean. Anything you do or say which enables her to maintain her addiction will be honored. Anything you do or say to oppose it will be severely resisted. Everything else will just be ignored.

Welcome to MB. You are in the right place. Your situation is not unique at all. We will help you through this for just a mere 15% interest in your business. That's fair. lol.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s.- You are much more likely to save your marriage than not. It will get harder before it gets easier but you've managed a good start on your own. Keep hope alive.

I'm not sure. In fact one of the emails to her internet lover revealed such a plan to do both the workshop and the PA. It's been one week since her last stated contact with the internet guys. I used Plan A and she said she broke all contact with both of them. Of course, my methods of learning about the affair (computer spyware) resulted in LB's which she is still very pissed off about.

How can I question her about the workshop this weekend without causing more LB's?

MCM

By the way....Have you exposed??? Do her parents know??? Her siblings???. If you can't stop it you need their help. WW will be furious but a little (or a lot) of anger your marriage can survive, whereas an ongoing, ever deepening addiction to OM your marriage can not.

I bet you'll want to debate this issue further. Please read some exposure threads and posts your thoughts.

Mr. Wondering

Then this is her plan. She has been quiet this week because she wants nothing...NOTHING to interfere with her stated intentions. She's probably even had a lot of sex with you to shut you up.

I doubt you'll be able to stop her too. You can try or insist on going with her. It will be very beneficial if you can break up this fantasy relationship before it becomes physical. However if your attempts fail, with your money, hire a Private Investigator to get the goods on her at that location. Then call her and tell her you have the evidence and will expose her unless she gets home NOW or something to that effect.

Make an appointment ASAP with the Harley's. They are pro's on this.

By the way...email me...I have something I want to share with you.

Mr. Wondering

Not trying to scare you. But my wife told me she wanted a divorce in 2004. She denied there was anybody else. I started Plan A. Tried to get her into counciling.

Shortly, within a few days, discovered she was having an internet affair. She denied it. Said they were, "just friends" She said the guy was in a wheel chair.

She told me she wanted to go to her sisters, about an hour away for a long weekend to think things over. I offered to come up for lunch one day. She said no, she wants time alone to think. I questioned whether she was perhaps meeting her internet friend. She laughed and said she could "never do that" she'd be too scared. "What kind of woman did I think she was?" she asked.

Well the evening she left I found a flight schedule that showed OM coming to town. She did not go to her sisters, though they tried to cover for her cheating. (nice huh?) I called her that evening and asked her to come home. She never called the entire weekend and spent the whole time shacked up in a hotel with OM. A man she never met except online. Now I do know exactly what kind of woman she is.

So, I think the Houston trip is a huge red flag.
Hope your situation is different than mine.


.

MrW - Thanks for the feedback. I actually told her that this site recommends the exposure method. She freaked out (as did my therapist!) at first and said she would kill herself if I ever did that but then a couple days later said she didnt care and would give up everything and start over with nothing if that is what it took to be free of the hurt and pain caused by our M.

BTW - It is not a love buster to question and forbid your wife to go to this "workshop" any more than it is a LB to keep your wife from going to a crack house. Now you can't physically stop her but you must do everything in your power to get her to not go or allow you to go with her.

Do not threaten exposure...If she won't agree you just expose and let the chips fall where they may.

Mr. Wondering

* Faithful Follower - great minds think alike

Your therapist is mistaken. Call the expert Dr. Harley...contact info in on the main site and you may be able to get in by the end of the week. If you fear your wife is reading this thread let me know by email and we can discuss alternatives.

First she gets angry then changes tactics to "do what you want" but if you do "I am leaving". We seen that 1000's of time on these boards...again...she's trying to sell you and keep you quiet.

I usually advocate exposure in 2 steps...first her family and a close friend or two. Then if that has no effect...EVERYBODY, including all of OM's family, friends and job (job...because he's probably doing a lot of this at work).

BTW - when I busted my wife her biggest disappointment and first thought was how I ruined her plan to take my daughter and live in Georgia near her parents for the summer (while I stayed home in Detroit) so she could continue her affair all summer. She was so fogged out that was her first concern over and above the hurt she caused me. Your wifes addiction is her ONLY focus right now and you are the only sane parent and spouse that can save her from herself right now.

In conclusion, believe nothing that WW says and only 50% of what she does. Develope and implement your plan...that is all you can do and hope it works. I suggest MB is the best known plan to marital recovery. Learn it and live it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- get a background check on OM and find out who he is. Is he married? Kids? Parents? Job? This guy could be a serial killer for all WW knows and she wants to meet him. Again, protect her from herself...she really knows not what she's doing.

I called and left info for an appointment. Looking forward to the insights that will surely be provided me.

My hesitation on the exposure methods suggested is that we are both very well known public figures in our community and I'm afraid that such an exposure would bring discredit on all of us and hurt our business.

That being said, if I knew with 100% certainty that the exposure would produce the desired result of a recovered marriage, I would do it in a heartbeat.

The other hesitation (with honest reflection) is that I feel guilty for my part in setting the stage for this EA.

I am going to discuss the Houston "relationship awareness workshop" with her tonight and see what comes up.

I really appreciate the feedback that I am getting here...this is a strange area that I find myself in. I'm not used to being this vulnerable. Thanks for the lifeline <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MCM

We all feel guilty about setting the stage. But she made the poor choice.

Ok, you have a choice- risk folks finding out or let it continue.

What's worse?

mcm-

Oh my gosh!!! It isn't YOUR fault that your wife had an affair. You can recognize your part in what went wrong in the marriage, but it is NOT your fault she chose to have low moral standards and go outside the marriage (even if it is only the internet).

Internet chat is a tricky thing, you can be anything you want to be on the internet. No one sees any of your flaws...because you can just *edit* them right out.

Do NOT assure your wife she'll be taken care of financially, you need to broadcast LOUD AND CLEAR that you do not approve of this, and you are not going to support this emotionally or financially. Also you are NOT going to just turn over custody of your child.

You MUST expose...........it's imperative, YOU have nothing to be ashamed of, YOU didn't choose to have an affair. It may make a dent in your business, but I highly doubt that would be permanent.

I don't know about the counseling weekend thing.

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

MCM:

So how's it going so far? You've been given some good advice and I'd suggest that you continue asking questions. These folks are sharing what they've learned to be the most efficient way to save your marriage. If possible - view the affair situation as you would a betrayal situation at work. (Remember that affairs can be emotional-only, physical-only or both.) After all - affairs always involve betrayal. (I know - your work contributed to the situation you're in; - but please bear with me here.) The point is; when it comes to issues surrounding an affair - it's important that you keep a clear head and do what is necessary to end the affair. Exposure is one of the best-known methods to be utilized as all affairs are founded on secrecy. Exposure ends the secrecy and forces all parties to deal with reality. (Just as exposing a fraud at work is the first step to correcting the issue!)

Also; it's a systematic process. The affair must be eliminated (forever) and only after this happens can the marriage can be worked on. This is when you can invoke your new desires to recover your marriage.

I've invited an old friend who is very well known on here to call on you. She's awesome and will be a valuable source to you.

FR

FR,

The principles on this site and the advice that you and others have given me have allowed a slice of clarity to land in my lap, something that I desperately needed. 15% of my NR as payment would be a little steep, but well worth it if this continues to provide me with an oasis from the insanity. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thank you. I scheduled a telephone consultation for Friday and am eager to get further reality checks within that process.

Here is where I am at with the exposure:

Nov 12, 2005 she (in so many words) said the LB's I dished out as a result of my being focused on work and everything except her resulted in a total loss of love. She emphatically asked for divorce.

I still love her and refused to cooperate with divorce request...and this is where I am still at. Found this site in mid Nov and began in earnest taking my inventory, being honest and taking responsibility and making it a point to meet EN's like there was no tomorrow.

Early Dec I found an email by mistake to OM. She says it started within a couple of days of her making decision to end M. She promised to stop but I found out it was going on in late Dec. She promised to stop again. Both promises to stop where based on her fear that I would turn this all around and hurt her chances for an amicable divorce NOT because she really wanted to stay married to me.

About ten days ago I kepylogged her computer and came up with hard core evidence that EA was continuing. Since that time she has said she sent both guys (there is one OM that is the primary A) letters and discontinued all contact. She reluctantly agreed to keep the keylogger active (although I honestly feel strange doing this as I have always trusted her). Since these actions, there has been no further evidence that I can see of an ongoing A.

I think she is complying with this ONLY because she is afraid that it will interfere with her getting a (more) desirable divorce outcome, although she says that there is still an off (10%) chance that we can rebuild.

The Houston trip appears to be straight up and not a guise for a PA. After I told her I'd like to go with her she quickly started making plans to get childcare in order and book the arrangements.

All this said, shouldn't I take this as a "first real attempt" at eliminating the EA and see how it goes before exposure?

I agree, that is she relapses back to the EA, exposure is something I must do immediately. And then let the chips fall as they may.

Here is the other thing that I am having trouble with. Most of the A's I see described on the site seem to be initiated before the couple got to the point that my wife and I got and often times lead into the divorce. In my case, I really believe that my W initiated the EA after she firmly convinced herself it was 100% over, told me it was 100% over and started acting consistent with her desires by making plans to live her life apart from me. Only at that point did she initiate the EA.

Doesn't that change things in how I approach this problem?

Thanks for asking your friend to contact me. I feel very fortunate to have found this site....what an amazing resource. The benefits I am getting from here run circles around what my therapist is capable of giving me. If it wasn’t for this site, I think I'd be fubar.

mcm

Hello MCM,


I don't believe the above for a second. It's possible but unlikely (and I was wrong about the weekend trip). Affairs usually pre-date the distorted and sudden loss of feelings. The fact that she came to you and asked for a divorce...no, let's get counseling, let's work on this, is telling. Maybe you've left something out. Further, can you research her registration date on the website.

Does she have access to keylogger password? Make sure she's not turning it off and on. Or using another computer. Also, now that she's got a man interested she may have turned to other methods of communication like cell phone calls and/or texts messages. Look for a secret cell phone. Be watchful.

So you are going to the conference together then. That is good. Study up on developing intimacy in your relationship.

As far as your question about the difference btwn her affair and others is that, IMO, there really is no difference. When is it ever right to have an affair? Sure the circumstances differ but it's all the same thing...it's not like she mentioned it to you and asked for permission. She knew it was wrong...hence the secret...her excuses are just rationalizations and justifications. However, because the affair never went physical you may have an easier recovery because YOU will not be as hung up on the whole sex thing. Her feelings are likley no different than the rest of the WW's and FWW's around here are or were.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

MCM:

You're welcome for the help. I find it interesting that so many hang around to assist long after their personal situation has been resolved. Perhaps it's a badge of honor or similar situation. No matter - there are some awesome people on here.


Excellent. You will get additional valuable input on Friday.


I hear what you're saying - however it won't wash. She's still married - thus it's an affair! Her inability to totally disconnect is classic Fog-action.


Wasn't she previously saying she was 100% sure your M was over? Now she's 10% in favor of recovery. Looks to me like you're on the right track!


Excellent move on your part! Shows your making efforts to help create a better M - and also that you're going to be checking. This is a time to trust - but verify!


Affirmative. I agree w/both statements. Remember though - eyes open!


You're married until the judge says otherwise.


Her screen-name is Orchid. She is well known in these parts and was there for me in the dark days; thus the high recommendation. Her ability to read and deal with "fog-babble" is well documented on here. [You might ask your therapist to have a look at this site. The results in recovered marriages speaks for itself!]

Good luck MCM - and stay the course.

FR

She did ask for counseling a few times over the past few years and she did seek my attention to work on things. I just neglected her needs and generally ignored her pleas. She got into her own therapy in August, lost 40 pounds and started acting like she was going through a MLC.

I honestly have not seen any further evidence of the EA, and yes I have looked. One thing interesting however…. I can tell she is jonesin to go back to the internet sex related sites because she is trying to get me to agree to "check it out together". After checking it out with her for a couple of nights, I told her I was uncomfortable with it and asked that we stop. I told her I would rather replace it with another more tantalizing website and promptly went to the MB site and navigated to the Policy of Radical Honesty and Policy of Mutual Agreement.

She didn't think that was very funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But she agreed to my request and read several pages on the MB site and has followed through with not going back to the sex related web sites, saying that she won’t go back there unless I go with her. She is very mad about this though. Last night she pressed me to return to the site and after I repeatedly declined, she literally whipped her laptop off the bed and unto the dresser.

She says that it is unfair that I am controlling her this way.


After her openness and willingness to let me go with her, I decided not to. Perhaps the wrong move but she seems genuinely willing to use this weekend to help herself.

I want to go to MB workshop in SanFran next weekend and she has agreed. I wish they had MB meetings; I’d be there with her in a heartbeat.

Thanks again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MCM

I am guessing you probably right about the conference this weekend but I'd like to ask 3 questions:

1. Do you believe she anticipated you'd not REALLY go? (the behaviors you described on the board...i.e.-not hesitating and trying to arrange a sitter for the kids, sound encourageing...a WW arranging a rendevous with their OM would have had a million reasons why they needed to be ALONE)

2. Is she going to be allowed to take her laptop? It'd be best if she just left it home...not that she couldn't use another compuer but she'd not have one in her room all night and maybe all day (if she skips the conference to be on-line).

3. If she is will she agree to allowing you to place password protected spyware upon it?

In addition, you indicated she lost weight in August and started acting bizarre then. That alteration was likely preceeded by something. I am just guessing that maybe she started the inappropriate internet stuff later as a result of her loss of feelings for you coupled with entitlement, rationalizations and justifications based on something she did last summer. If I were you I'd focus on what happened last July and August that precipitated this metamorphisis.

Maybe a she had a ONS, an emotional affair or physical affair. Any old boyfriends show up? A high school reunion? An out of town meeting?

Another reason I perceive this possibility is because she's just not acting all that guilty about the internet stuff...she's willing to bring you on and have you share the experience. Like maybe you've only busted her for what she sees as the little thing. If so, I bet she really scoffed at the MB Radical Honesty principles...not that that tells you I'm right...they all do.

Hopefully I'm just thinking to much. If you are suspicious too...do some snooping, it's your right to know the truth as it relates to your life. Further...recovery is so much easier getting all the truth out and unfortunately many WS's mistakenly try to protect themselves and BS from the truth (read Newstart's Thread).

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

It's possible. My only option at this point would be to hire a PI to check it out. Do you think it's worth doing that?

She took her laptop. She is aware that I had spyware on it (password protected) and has been too afraid to use it for any other inappropriate old behaviors for fear that I would use the information to embarrass her. I am getting more and more signs that she hasn't stopped the EA because she really feels it was wrong, but only because she is afraid I will use it to hurt her.

As far as the No Contact with OM contract she has with me... she said that its been eight days since the last contact that she initiated, although the OM has sent her two one line emails asking if she is okay. She deletes them.

You bring up some intersting points MrW. You have me thinking now about the summer timeframe.

She has NO guilt whatseoever about the EA. The author of the book she read and the person who will lead the workshop this weekend has had three telephone consultations with her these past two weeks. She says that they went through the guilt inventory, and that she and he agree that there is no guilt issues to work on.

Last night we talked about that. I knew we were treading on touchy ground because one of the biggest LB's is that she feels like I dont accept her and judge her.

For much of the past three months she has harshly blamed me for her loss of love for me and the demise of our M. I have noticed that this is what she needs to do right now and instead of me getting defensive (which is my normal) I listen, tell her that I accept responsibility and own my part.

She doesnt like that at all because the conversation normally turnes to her feeling like I am trying to get her to own and take responsibliity for the EA. She doesnt think she has to really do anything except say she is sorry. She said last night that she really feels a sense of loss from her EA (I was very happy that she would actually confide in me these feelings) and that she misses the unconditional acceptance and positve regard she got from it.

One of the top things I need to do right now it seems is to do a great post Plan A follow-up. I hear the term "fog" used around here. This seems to explain some of what is going on right now....where can I learn more about that?

Thanks for the ongoing support. Time to "meet" Steve.

MCM

I don't get you at all...

(A) There is a good chance that this trip is a way [censored] someone else.
(B) You and she need help.
(C) You need to spend as much time with her as possible

BUT:

You're too busy to spend the weekend with her?

What is more important than your M? What possibly is more important than her? And, aren't you telling her, "Hey, we got marital problems, and we really need to save our M, but, I'm busy. I'll try to work on this next week."

PLEASE READ: If she goes off f*cks someone else this weekend, your life will become a living h*ll. Further, you could end up divorced in a couple of months.

So, tell me, what is so critical that is worth you giving up time with the most important person in this world? Money?

Where in my post(s) did I say I was too busy to spend the weekend with her? I said that I decided not to go. I made that decision based on her needs, and the needs of my family, not mine.

Over the last several weeks I am home every day at 5pm and spend every night with her. Her top EN is conversation. We spend 30 plus hours a week in just time together between us two, much of that spent in conversation with me being the listener. I spend another 20 hours per week meeting other EN's like housework and family time.

My work is suffering greatly, as it now does not have a CEO and VP who are leading it because we are focused on our M. We cofounded this together, my W and I, and we are witnessing it suffer greatly because of our pain.

If the parents of our daughter could be IN love with each other again, I would gladly give it all up.

Much of the conversation results in Conflict, but it’s better than us being in Withdrawal. I have much to learn still in my journey to be the kind of husband and person that I really am meant to be. I am not the guy who neglected her anymore. I am not the guy who ignored her needs anymore. That guy doesn’t live here anymore.

There is nothing more important than my M right now. Period.

Before she left for the weekend workshop she agreed to go on the MB weekend with me next week. I have been hoping for weeks that she would change her mind and agree to go.

MCM

I'd just like to thank those who posted and sent PM's of support this week. Some of you oldtimers got some serious battle scars...and what is so impressive is that you stick around long after you're recovery and give back. That is an amazing gift to a newb like me.

I need to climb in the hot tub and get a good night sleep...long weekend without WW awaits. Daughter and I are going to "tear up the town" this weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (=Legoland eats up another pair of shoes)

thanks.

mcm

MCM,

I just read over this thread..... I guess I am that 'old' one that Fishracer was talking about. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

From what I read, your W had to create the scenario that allowed the A to flourish. As a result, no matter what you do, you are not good enough.

Given the above, educating a WS isn't a practical use of one's time.

Instead, check out these options:

1. Read SAA (surviving an affair), HNHN (his needs/her needs).... if it gets rough, read Love must be Tough. The 1st 2 books are by Dr Harley. The 3rd by Dr James Dobson.

2. Take the En questionnaire.....you and your W. If she won't take you, you take it twice....once as you then as her....but not in drag. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

3. Work with Steve or Jennifer from MB. Jennifer is good working with the WSW's. It c/b harder for your W to see herself 'getting away' with anything if she works with Jennifer....even though she won't get away with anything working with Steve,.....well as a WS she is already having an problem with men..... JMHO.

4. Secure your finances. Secure your business....delegate as needed.

5. Do a background check on the OM.

6. Get IC for your children, make them part of your support group and visa versa.

7. Identify your boundaries. Read up on plans A & B. Learn when to implement the plans and your boundaries.

8. Pray for a calm heart and a clear mind along with lots of patience.

9. Know that you can't teach a WS. So don't try. Instead....learn to 'reverse babble'. This will allow you to give back the guilt and babble which comes from the WS. They can't help it....the A is like a scary disease which forces the WS to do and say cruel things to the family.

10. Expect her to grumble no matter what you do, so do what you feel is best w/o regrets. WS' tend to change their minds very quickly. There is no pleasing a WS. If the BS wants or says he wants it, the WS will act like she doesn't want it.

11. Learn to id when issues are truly your issues vs. babble. Do not take abuse.

Think that's enough to keep you busy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Oh no Orchid - not old - seasoned! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Seasoned?!?!?! Hm... as in jerky!??!!? Just kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I know what you mean and I am honored. Trying to keep the wrinkles at bay though..... really here age doesn't matter, it is the experience and what we have done with it that shows. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just giving you a hard time cuz I know you love it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

MCM,

How r u doing?

L.

Orchid,

I love your suggestions. Thank You <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> They put the focus on me and my reactions vs. what WW does or does not do.

While WW was at out of town workshop this weekend I used the trust but verify methods suggested here to confirm no PA. I know that there are many BS's here who were sure WS was keeping NC promise, only to find out that the A was still going on under their nose, so all I can say is that I took what I believe to be reasonable steps.

Frankly, the time with our daughter this weekend was a welcome rest to all the babble, blame and resentments that WW deals to me on a daily basis.

I made all arrangements for trip to SF next weekend for MB workshop. I am really looking forward to it.

Read HNHN last night. Considering buying SAA and Love Busters books...but I'll wait for next weekend as we get many of his pub's included in the workshop.

I have an interesting range of emotions I'm trying to deal with. On one hand, I feel a deep sense of responsibility for getting to this point in time. For a decade, my wife needed me to meet her most important needs. She told me in many different ways, yet I largely neglected her. I know that she also was responsible for the relationship deteriorating...I wasn’t "dancing" by myself for all these years.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am finding it difficult to focus on my chit while WW continues to rationalize and justify having the A because of my selfish behaviors. In a way it seems like she likes seeing me take responsibility for my part, not because it will help the R, but because she sees that it takes the focus off of her thereby minimizing her guilt.

BTW Orchid, I read your original post on reverse babble and found it very enlightening. That one thread alone will probably reduce the number of times I feel like smacking my head against the wall this upcoming week by 50%.

MCM

Orchid: Glad it helps.


Orchid: Good. Reasonable steps comes from using a clear mind and a calm heart. Keep up the good work.


Orchid: Good..... do more of this.


Orchid: Love must be tough is another good book. It is by Dr. James Dobson. Leans more towards plan B. It is vital a good plan A then plan B be done. The benefit is for the BS and family, NOT the WS. Remember that. Those plans are NOT for the WS. Maybe for your Xws but not the WS.


Orchid: That range of emotions will contribute to the roller coaster ride that the WS is desparately trying to keep you on. The sooner you get ahold of your emotions, know your boundaries, implement them, secure your immediate support group, expose, secure your legal and financial status'.....the sooner you can get off that roller coaster.


Orchid: It is difficult. No lie. Regardless of what she sees, says and does..... you move forward with what you know and do.


Orchid: Reverse babble. Saved the WS' life many times. LOL!!! Mine 2! Ok, we want you to save more than 1/2 your brain, ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Talk about banging one's head against a wall....take a look at testeddevotion and his WS Crystal. Those 2 are trying to use MB as their personal battlezone. YIKES!! That's what most of us face but only the BS tends to post.

Anyways....it may help you see which one is going insane and how close the other one may be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Orchid: That last part made me laugh. What a bonus...I get to laugh while I pound down some reality. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

WW is coming back from SI workshop this weekend titled "How to heal a painful relationship, and if necessary part as friends".

It seems like based on her comments this weekend (again I can't hang much on what she says), she went into it with the idea that the parting as friends part was her goal but came out with a motivation to work on the M.

I suppose nothing has changed much for me as I know my job right now is to do a great Plan A. I've done a decent Plan A, but I can do better. Namely I need to stop talking about improving the R and putting pressure or expectations on her. I've identified some holes in my Plan A from just cruising around the MB forums this weekend that need holed up. I need to decide whether to do them this week or wait until after the MB Weekend coming up in a few days.

The smart move I think would be to keep a low profile this week and be ULTRA sensitive to any LB's and meet the EN's that provide the greatest happiness. Those are the EN's that are made that DO NOT feel to her like I am TRYING to work on the R...if that makes sense.

I can smell sanity. I can smell it just as strong as the rush of my grandma's seven layer Torte as I step into our home on those frigid winter nights 35 years ago. But I suppose it will always just be that sweet inviting smell. Unless and until I find the door with the sign over it marked: Acceptance.

MCM

Things went good after picking her up at the airport last night despite some initial tension. Got to work this morning and she made a comment about not being able to fill out the LBI for the upcoming MB weekend because she was afraid her computer was still bugged and nothing she did was confidential. That led us down a three hour road of tears, hurt and dare I say a wee bit of healing.

In that three hours I made it a point to be accepting of her instead of defensive or judgemental, reverse babbled when appropriate, listened to her fears and let her own them instead of trying to fix or lessen them, communicated my feelings honestly, noticed her withdrawal from OM's with empathy (this was hard), encouraged her to look at upcoming MB weekend as a "research project".

Through all this I found myself coming out on the other end of this exchange feeling okay instead of wasted. I feel drained, but not in a bad way.

She still wants to file for a D and wants to move out but is willing to go on this research project to "see if the M is salvagable".

mcm

WW and I are two weeks into Plan A.

Some observations and a couple of questions:

1) Mid Life Crises. My WW is definitely going through a MLC. She has been a high functioning professional woman who has juggled the demands of work, family and success extremely well...until a few months ago. Now she is in the process of losing it all. Can anyone refer me to resources that embrace similar concepts as found here on MB that deal with woman in MLC? Most of them I see refer to men.

2) Withdrawal. The NC method is working. She is definitely experiencing withdrawal pains from the online EA. Any good advise on helping WS with withdrawal? It amazes me that the pull of an online EA is/was so powerful. I already know that ideally I should be the one to replace those needs that were met by the EA and I am eager to do so. But it's too early....she won't let me.

3) Divorce Talk. In the midst of employing MB principles and her willingness (EN Questionnaire, MB counseling with Steve, MB Workshop, etc...) she still talks about needing to separate and wanting the divorce. It's almost as if she somehow can't let herself free from the idea of separation and divorce despite some overwhelming evidence that recovery is very possible. I noticed recently that the more I accept her assertions of separation and divorce (instead of fighting them like I used to) the more anxiety she feels. Last night instead of me saying my usual response of how I don’t think separation will help, I told her I would help her find an apartment and help move her stuff out. We then talked about shared parenting time.

She absolutely lost it and started crying uncontrollably on and off for about 45 minutes. In the beginning, she threatened suicide again if she couldn’t have our daughter 80% of the time…then she said she would just give it all up. At one point she stood up and whipped her purse across the room and yelled “OKAY, you want me as your wife #@%#&* fine, you got me now are you happy”. Then she wept uncontrollably again for another hour.

She let me hold her and comfort her. She asked me if I could ever love and like someone like her ever again. We both just held each other for a long time and then fell asleep.

I love her so much; I hate to see her go through all this hurt and pain but I know it is necessary for recovery to set in. I don’t know what the future of our relationship will look like. All I can do is work the MB principles to the best of my ability and pray that God’s will be done.

mcm

MCM,

IMHO, MLC and the behavior of a WS mimick each other. It may be easier for you to take comfort in the definitions of MLC but it does not change your situation. Maybe in hindsight it can be chalked up to MLC but that can only really be determined later. A lot of posters come on here trying to discover and research the "why's?" only to discover in recovery that their spouse just made a mistake, and that mistake alone was the cause of all the odd behavior.

I thought I should also comment on this statement:


It is usually a BIG mistake to enable your WS in any way. If they are to change and commit to giving the marriage another shot, despite not "feeling it", they often have to come to the realization that the PAIN involved in leaving outweighs the pain of sticking it out and/or just trying. If she wants to leave, you can't physically stop her, but it is best if you make her do all the work. WS's consistently make irrational decisions and walk-out on their families despite the legal ramnifications of doing so. It's called "abandonmnet" and if she leaves absent a Legal Separation Agreement or Divorce Petition you will be in a much stronger legal position for full or primary custody of your children.

Why should you be denied the majority of custody if your wife flakes out on you? The pain she will incur if she loses custody often provides the magnet to get them to finally decide to return to the marriage. Of course, getting custody is not to be done as a vindictive measure. The kids are not pawns in some game; but, it is in their best interests that the marriage recover....period. Additionally, in the event the final outcome is a divorce and you both have personally recovered, you, as the primary custodial parent can modify the schedule as suit what you determine to best suit your broken family's needs. You can decide that the fight is over and decide to co-exist more amicable as co-parents...WHEN AND IF YOU CHOOSE.

Also, if your wife discusses a separation agreement or divorce...you indicate you do marriage only. If she wants to discuss those matters have her attorney contact your attorney. There is no way you can discuss it with her and assert your honest position without making withdrawals from your love bank. In your battle to save your marriage, you need to make pursuing that course of action as difficult and burdensome as possible. No pain, no change. Make her carry the load so to speak.

Do not move out...ever (absent a court order). Get as involved with your children's lives as possible and keep a journal of all your involvement. Make certain you appear to at the very least carry out 50% or more of the care of your children. With your wife's current condition...that should be easy to do. BTW, your wife is not a bad person, mother or wife...but your Wayward Wife is...you are the only sane, rational person, parent, and spouse in the house right now. You sound like you are getting this stuff so stick with your plan and win her back.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering