How do you break through or break down barriers of intimacy?
I want nothing more than to open up and share on a deeper level with my W, but I feel there is a wall that she has surrounding her. Every time things seem to be going well (meaning safe and comfortable), I find myself testing the wall she has up to defend herself... trying to open up conversation and discuss deeper issues. It always ends up badly and sends us back a step or two in recovery.
I know that I need to learn patience... that I tend to be like a dog with a bone with all parts of my life... when there is a challenge, I won't rest until its solved.
I think I'm getting the message that I can't break down the wall... that my W needs to open the little door and invite me in.
But will this happen? How long should I wait? Is the message supposed to be to move on and start over? Sometimes good people lose their jobs over mistakes... maybe they've learned from them and can do a better job in the future... but possibly with the job they've had, they've ruined their credibility and chances. The only way to move forward is in a new job.
Could this be the same with a M? It can be great... but only with a new partner? Have I ruined my credibility with my W and the walls will never come down?
Earlier in our M, I believe it was me who had the walls up to prevent intimacy (or both of us)... now it seems like the tables are turned. I guess she waited several years before she turned to an A. One year for me to wait is not much. If I knew that we will eventually get there I can wait for a long time. But if there is a good chance the walls will always stay up, then wouldn't it be better to give us both a new start?
Shaden
Have you spoken the same words that you wrote here to your wife? Trust and Honest are the answer. Trust and Honesty, not only in yours and her words and deeds and also your emotions.
With trust and honesty, you need to throw your ideas out to her so that she has 20/20 for her to see.
I quote you:
[quote]How do you break through or break down barriers of intimacy?
I want nothing more than to open up and share on a deeper level with my W,... wall that she has surrounding her. ...(meaning safe and comfortable), I find myself testing the wall she has up to defend herself... trying to open up conversation and discuss deeper issues. It always ends up badly and sends us back a step or two in recovery.
End of quote
Most of what you write is of a higher order abstraction--meaning that for example, there are no literal "walls", you and she do not "open up", "deeper issues" could mean a variety of actual discussion.
What are you really trying to describe? Is the main problem the discussion of "deeper issues" or is it something else. If she is uncomfortable with "talk", is there some other sort of behavior you could do other than "talk"?
I am very behavioral in my view of the world and in implementing change. When I read your e-mail, the thing that struck me most was that it is not very grounded in concrete behaviors. If you re-described the situation using nouns and verbs that are more descriptive of actual behaviors, would it help you understand the situation better? Just wondering.
Exagilent and lake 53... thanks for responding.
Exagilent...
I haven't spoken these exact words... but close. For example, today I talked about my need to push forward... I described our level of intimacy (I mean by that, knowing each other) at one level.. and that I want to shoot for a much higher level. A level where secrets are gone and all feelings are shared. My style of impatience says that I want to get to that level as soon as possible. I do realize that a part of the beauty is actually the actions of getting there... not just the end result... but I don't want to be stationary. She feels that when things are going well... my belief of this is when things are surface and happy and safe, that I have to push. She said that many couples in retirement age are not at the level I want to be at (we are in our 30s).
the last time I spoke about my needs and wanting the best relationship possible, she told me this was the best she can give and I was free to leave if I wanted more.
lake53...
my W does not have a problem with "talk". She can talk for hours with her Mom or sister. She spent several hours at her friends house discussing depression and other deeper topics a couple of weeks ago. I am not comfortable at "small talk" but can spend hours talking about issues... finances, religion, the kids, our relationship... etc..
I have made, IMO, a huge improvement in my small talk and listening skills. This has been a focus of mine for the last year. I spend a lot of time each day asking about and listening to her about her work, her family, home decorating, even pedicures, etc.. But when I try to bring up a topic I would like to discuss... she shuts down. Sometimes this is about the A and relationship... but not always. I don't hold the A over her except just the mention of it is a negative reminder that she does not want to discuss. I have been very patient with asking questions and not receiving responses... I haven't asked any details in months. What I am more interested in now is the deeper level... how, why, what do I need to do, where do we go from here, what are her needs... etc. She won't read MB or books... won't go to counselling anymore (I've applied for IC), just wants life "back to normal".
As a BS, life back to normal means life ripe for another A... she has already had 3.
She has lots of past history with problems with her different fathers, etc... I've posted it all on here before. I suspect she has a fear of abandonment, fear of trusting, amongst others. I realize that she needs to trust that I will be there for her... trust that my changes are real... but
As I'm writing this, I realize that the "deeper issues" generally do come back to the R and A... but it is difficult to not talk about our life without referring to that when it is just a year ago. She wants life without mention of the A. I want to discuss it to minimize the risk of it happening again. She seems happy with surface, day to day life... I want to dig deep and to know who she really is.
Shaden
I guess this is just another one of my low points on the roller coaster. The good news is that the low points seem to be coming further apart and last less time.
I am remembering my own sig line... Patience.
My main problem is that I'm still not working... too much time on my hands (and on my mind). A new job will help to solve this. I was just hoping that we would be further along during this time at home. I guess I have to let things heal in their own time.
Shaden
Shaden, I feel pretty much the same as you. H is home now after living out of the house for three months. He just came back last week. I'm happy he's home, but he also wants to just do "small talk." If I try and have a meaninful conversation about his A, he gets very antsy, says, "this is so hard." He thinks that by me bringing it up, I'm rubbing his nose in it. I'm not. Like you, I just want a better marriage so that we don't find outselves in this predicament again. It's disheartening to me that you have been a year into this, and things are still like this with your W. I don't know that I can wait that long for H to finally start showing me real affection again. This whole thing just hurts so badly.
Good luck to you.
I certainly know how you feel about needing to talk about the A to the WS.
I have been fortunate that my FWS has been willing to talk about it when I need to. His A was not as hurtful as many that I have read about on this forum. But it still caused immeasureable pain for me and for him. It is good that at least you can vent and share here. I hope it helps.
Will she talk about the more pro active marriage building sorts of things like what are her emotional needs, what are your emotional needs? Are you able to talk about these concerns without mentioning the A?--since it sounds like she freezes when you do. Mind you, I don't know if this is a good thing to do as I am only a Junior Member BS but I am just going on what you are saying.
Just know that we BSs know how you are feeling on that roller coaster.
Last summer my wife and I took a road trip and listened to HNHN on CD (the Audio Version). We paused it several times to discuss. Looking back, it was our first breakthrough moment where my wife, Mrs. W, disassociatated herself from the person she was choosing to be then and the WW she was just a few months before.
I surmise, once that disassociation is made by both the WS and the BS, then meaningful analysis of the affair can commence in unison.
3 recoveries are occuring simultaneously
1. The BS
2. The WS
3. The Marriage
One and Two can be done indenpentently but why????. Doing them TOGETHER is just so much more effective and meaningful. It developes intimacy in and of itself and assists greatly in the achievement of #3.
Simple but not easy questions:
1. "I notice by your posture (arms folded, defensively slumping, avoding eye contact) that you'd just like this conversation to be over, you're not comfortable going into this with me, however, I am your spouse and the number one ally you have in this life, I am no longer in judgemet of who you were, I, like you, want to see if I can help you process who you were/became a few months ago so as to assist you with becomeing a better you...
a. What do you want out of life?
b. Do you trust God that I am the perfect mate for you?
c. Do you love yourself?
2. Honey, destructive choices have little to do with whom you made the choice with, OP is irrelevant to our recovery, I know that's hard to see right now, but this isn't about OP, it's about you and you and I..., when we became married we became "one flesh"...your problems and issues ARE mine as well. What's going on with you, internally??? Where do you think the disconnect between whats real (us) and whats not (the affair) began??? Have you disconnected much before?? Do you often find yourself fantasizing about a different life, what could have been??? What does that life look like?? How can we make that life together and make your dreams come true??? I want to make your dreams possible??? I am not here to hold you back and/or control you...I wish for OUR lives to be fulfilling and complete...what do YOU wish for.
3. I want to become a better me? What do you wish I would do to become the best me possible?? What potential do you think I have?? What are your favorite things about me??? Your least favorite???.
All conversation is open and honest. No hurts, no judgements,
Just some thoughts.
Mr. Wondering
p.s. - Men communicate very well and intimately when driving. No distractions, no tv, no kids screaming, just the two of you. Sex is not possible and doesn't distract from the conversation. Eye contact is not required so body language, guilt, pain, hurtful words are less filtered when spoken around you rather than to you. Also, there is no place to withdraw to and the man doesn't feel trapped albeit he is. There is a compulsion to pass the time just talking. No better time to delve into issues when there is no place to run. As you near your destination, things can be summarized and wrapped up...discussions don't have to end abruptly with no resolution since there is no walking away. Just wait out the silence. Like a sales person, you ask the poignant (closing) question and remain silent until answered. Silence puts pressure on the questioned to respond...be still and wait it out. Again, no judgement, a loving, empathetic, caring discussion about US.
rltraveled... just to take away some of your discouragement... overall things are going well with my W and I. She is affectionate, we are doing a lot of family things and spending time together. Other than me not working, things are atleast back to normal (pre-A). Things were not bad prior to the A for us... we just both were conflict avoiders and she became bored in our M. Lots of other stuff that piled up but overall we had a pretty good life. In some ways things are better... we are both practicing better conflict management skills.
It seems that when things are going very well, as they were the last couple of weeks, I push too quickly to make progress and we take steps back. As most couples following an A, going back to pre-A is not good enough for me. I want awesome. My W has had some conversations about the A, but we never got to the point of just sitting down and her answering every question I have... so they trickle out and she gets tired of it. Any talk of it is negative for her. I see conversation as positive... trying to learn from it. This is where we butt heads.
Mr. W.
I hope to have some time to converse like you have described. We are going away as a family for a week later in July to a cabin. The kids will be there so the drive won't work, but maybe some time alone will be available. We've had a lot of time alone up 'til now before the kids were off school, but most of it she has avoided serious conversation.
Your examples are excellent. Thanks, I'll study them.
Lake... I've tried a couple of times with the EN questionnaire, etc. I'll try again in the future, but it has to come natural. She isn't one to fill out something like that unless she comes across it herself.
Thanks for the advice. I'm doing a little better today. I've chosen to leave the serious talk again for a while. I think pushing is ok sometimes because she also needs to be forced to do something that is uncomfortable to change. She can either move with it or build her wall stronger... in which case, I will eventually have some choices to make. Until then, it's one day at a time.
Mr. W... I would love for Mrs. W. to talk with my W... I'll keep waiting for a good opportunity to approach that subject.
Thanks,
Shaden
The best news... in the past when I hit these low points I was always making plans to leave. This time, the thought crossed my mind, but I was able to get rid of it shortly thereafter. Writing my first post on this thread helped me to sort out my thoughts. My exagerated response to conflict is getting better.
Shaden
Dear Shaden,
does your W also have problems with physical intimacy. I don't mean sex. I mean holding each other, holding hands, that sort of thing.
If she's open to that (the non-verbal stuff) then you should know that this is a way straight to the heart. If it comes from the heart, that is. It shouldn't be done "technically". There should be no hint that it's sexual. Just taking her hand into yours, instead of talk-talk-talk, maybe just for a little while. Just enough to leave her wondering - hey, why did he do that?
Just a suggestion from another woman who would have LOVED it if her XWH would have understood this.
Hi Brownhair,
No problem with me offering affection and touch. I love to hold hands, give a foot massage, gaze into her eyes, etc..
Sometimes I guess I hope it leads to SF... but often not. SF is far less frequent than I would like, but affection is regular. Occassionally she does feel uncomfortable with it and will let me know. Pre-A when she did tell me she was uncomfortable, I took it personaly and showed rejection... therefore she wouldn't tell me so she wouldn't hurt me, but stopped initiating... felt smothered...I felt more rejected... a bad cycle. Now, I still initiate a large percent of the time, but she is doing more. I'm not sure if she still feels that I expect SF or not... a good topic to discuss. But she seems more comfortable with it most of the time. I'm also not feeling rejected when she is uncomfortable... most of the time. I feel more rejected at the lack of intimate conversation.
It's funny that when we were first M'd, I was the one who hated affection and anything to do with feelings. She worked hard to change that in me... now I love it and she seems to do ok without it from me.
I'm not sure if it is the old "thrill of the chase" theory... now she has me whole heartedly and doesn't want me.
Shaden
Shaden,
do you know about EN's ?
If yes, what are your wife's top EN's and what are yours?
If no, it might be interesting to find out. I think the test is somewhere on the website.