I’ve send the following post on my other thread too, but since this is such a controversial topic I thought it would be beneficial to start a separate thread and hopefully get Dr Harley’s feedback on this:

It seems this issue on POJA versus exposure is something people have very different opinions and philosophies on. I have my own personal opinion on this too but since there are so many opinions flying around on this, I do wish I could have a VERY straight, direct and clear-cut answer from Dr Harley himself regarding POJA and exposure in a situation where the BS doesn’t approve and agree on exposure to the OPS (whatever the reasons or circumstances). I would like to know this so that there can be NO doubt or different interpretations about Dr Harley’s viewpoint and opinion on this whatsoever again in future.

Specifically, I would like to know from him that - since exposure to the BS and POJA in an M is both important - what about a situation where the BS doesn’t agree and approve on exposure to the OPS? Must the FWS honor the BS request and do nothing without the BS “enthusiastic agreement” or must the FWS continue with exposure to the OPS anyway (by using "Radical Honesty") no matter what the consequences on the M, FWS and BS might be?

What bothers me is that on the one side Dr Harley says an A should ALWAYS be exposed to the BS, but on the other side he also says issues should always be POJA’d between the spouses after an A… But which one is the most important especially after a recent betrayal by the FWS? Is it more important for the FWS in such a situation to do the “morally right” thing and inform the OPS without the BS agreement and approval…and therefore put the relationship and trust between the BS and FWS at risk (which might have a negative influence on the M especially if there is bad consequences after the exposure) or is it more important for the FWS to honor and submit to the BS (especially where the BS is a man and head of the household in a Christian marriage) and take his/her feelings into account above anything else and not do anything (in this case exposure) without the BS approval and “enthusiastic agreement” first?

IMPORTANT: Please note that I'm NOT referring to situations where someone breaks the law such as child molestation, murder, theft or whatever - of course these are entirely different issues.

Since I live in S.A. and have a different “time-slot” here, I will not be able to phone Dr Harley himself. I will however appreciate if someone can take the time and effort to get a direct and clear-cut from Dr Harley on this so that there can be NO doubt about this issue whatsoever again in future. Maybe someone will be willing to phone in during his radio show.

**thud**

Suzet, you might be interested what the OW have to say
on the subject on this other site.

They tend to rationalize not telling the other man's wife either.

I have decided to tell the wife

Zippydy doo dah, I'm not interested in reading anything on that website at all so I respectfully ask you to remove that link from this thread.

I'm only intersted in Dr Harley's opinion.

Thank you.

You already know Dr Harley's opinion Suzet. You really aren't interested in hearing anything that contradicts your actions though.

Tell me Suzet, if someone rings Dr Harleys radio program with your question and he gives you the answer you already know he will give, will it make the slightest difference to your actions?

Suzet, you don't have to read that thread if you don't
want to.

However, it reveals the mind of the OW and perhaps
displays more honesty about why they don't tell the
OM's wife than you are willing to admit.
(I have learned a lot about what makes my FWW tick
from reading on this board.)

I know you are blaming your husband but you have your
own agenda. You could persuade your husband in a minute,
(to tell the wife) if it was what you really wanted.

YOU KNOW THAT.

I have to go to work now so I will not be on the computer
again until tomorrow morning.

This is not the case. Yesterday after work I've brought up this topic with my H again (I've also read/show to him ALL the responses on my thread I've received yesterday) but he still don't agree/approve on exposure to the OMW on this stage. Said it can be done if it becomes necessary in future and if OM doesn't respect my NC request.

No, I don't...not regarding my specific question in this thread.

You are free to make your own assumptions about me BigK...I can't control that.

I don't know the answer he will give BigK, but if he says that in his opinion that exposure to the OPS weight heavier than POJA and the BS agreement & approval then yes...I might probably start to reconsider and rethink the whole situation and what I need to do.

Suzet...I really didn't want to open up an old can of worms, but this reminds me of a pivotal thread some time back about telling a man that he was not the biological father of child he was deceived into raising.

Almost all of the folks who are castigating you for not telling were perfectly willing to continue deceiving the man in that situation.

Some posters admitted that they were in possession of this critical info, but decided that they weren't the right person to tell it or that it would only do more harm than good to tell him.

Yet these same folks are rabid advocates of sharing information that has the potential to destroy a family just as surely as sharing paternity information.

Do you see the disconnect?
It fundamentally affected the way I view their posts.

Hence...situational ethics.

Interesting...thanks LO!

Further reason why I would specifically like to get Dr Harley's opinion on this since his view will hopefully be totally unbiased.

Gee Low Orbit, you might wanna post a link to that thread. I for one have no idea what you are talking about.

Does anyone know if it's possible to e-mail/post to Dr Harley to get his opinion and what is the procedure?

When to Tell The Truth

Hello Low! How have you been...

Here is an interesting thought.....

At what point does "truth" matter?

If I define truth as a piece of factual information, then falsity could almost be defined as a lack of factual information.

With those definitions - essentially meaning one has the whole story or one doesn't - where does that relieve us in general from attempting to be the best people we can be? Is the knowledge what makes us good or bad, or the choices we make with the knowledge we have? I believe the latter. I am not one to hold a bad decision against someone who did not have all the facts when they made it.

Can the truth hurt? Yes. But a lie can as well. And conversely, BOTH can also cause relief.

I think the PAIN comes from the fact that in our attempts to navigate this life we all live, it is PAINFUL and takes effort to change course. I don't thing the truth or falsity itself is the cause of that. I think that when a new piece of information arises that makes us undergo this change, be it truth OR falsehood, is when it "hurts."

For example, one typically feels relief when we discover a truth (or get more information) that confirms to our sensibilities that our chose path is indeed correct. The sense of relief that comes with the statement "Boy, I sure nailed that one!!"

It is funny - if I spared you pain by taking steps to prevent some potential physical accident (say something falling off a scaffold and clunking you on the head as you walked by) and you were none the wiser, who would stand up and say you should experience the pain of that because that is "truth?"

Why is it that when INFORMATION is painful is it questionable as to wether it is necessary or not? Some people just don't get it until they experience pain. And we call that "tough love." But where we get into the grey area is when we are protecting those around us from the informational pain caused by someone ELSE'S actions.

I, personally, can't think of a situation where "I'd rather not know." But that is a personal choice...

Perhaps wisdom is to ask the person we are considering telling how THEY feel about it. This could be done in a philosophical vein and probably not seem too weird. Would be a good discussion over a few cold ones.

Hi LO,

You may remember that you and I have discussed religion before -- and I have TONS of respect for your thoughts and experiences.

The thread you reference is excellent, to be sure, but I don't think it addresses a situation like Suzet's.

I don't think the POJA is meant to be "verses" exposure. The POJA is what new marrieds, or couples seeking to stregthen their marriage, or recovered couples use to keep their marriage strong. It seems to me that it would be almost impossible to negotiate anything other than what to have for dinner with an active WS.

My understanding is that it is NOT used during an active affair - which, let's face it, makes sense, since a spouse in an affair is not in the best emotional place to be making decisions, anyway.

The question, I think, is whether or not Suzet is coming from the place of an active WS or a recovered FWS.

I suspect my opinion is not welcommed here... since I have been where Suzet is, and can remember very well how I felt when exposure was threatened: I felt like a caged animal and would go to any length to avoid it.

It might surprise Suzet to know that I apologized to the OM's SO. What she did with my words is not my problem... whether she believed me or not is not my problem... she had a right to know, and I took responsibility for MY ACTIONS that INTRUDED on HER relationship (they were common law and I have since heard that they legally married).

That is where I come from... and all of this happened before I ever found MB. It was the right thing to do.

"I am going to tell (confess) to THE UNKNOWING BETRAYED SPOUSE that there was an affair so he/she may protect his/her self . This is my moral obligation that my conscience demands. Let's discuss this, and agree to a plan that fulfills my moral obligation."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is how to POJA exposure

it can be done by the WS or the BS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pep

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

POJA the method

Pep

Suzet,

OM thinks you are his soulmate. If you don't recipricate those feelings as you say, you MUST tell OMW. It's not fair to her or to OM, who will continue to live in a fantasy that is destroying both himself and his M.

I also just had contact with FOM. After reading your thread (and Kiwi J's) I decided to tell OMW. I did it behind H's back because he felt very strongly against exposure. I told him last night, and he was very angry. He is more at peace with it this morning.

I sent OMW a package yesterday and I'm scared to death to talk to her, but it is the right thing.


You can do the right thing, too!

((Suzet))

Suzet, I emailed Dr. Harley with a very similar question although I did not use the word POJA.

If you remember Dr. Harley was not that clear in his response which was: "I'm okay with letting your husband decide whether or not to let your former lover's wife know about the affair."

I had asked him specifically if he suggested that I expose to the OM's W in spite of my husband not wanting to expose. That was his reply.

If you want his email, I will post it as long as it is OK to do that on here?

here here...new beginning....

this has NOTHING to do with her mariatal relationship..

it is the right thing to do..

for the OM's wife...

your post speaks clearly and concisely to the REAL issue...

I wouldn't be able to post on this site if I didn't believe that
the right to know
and the opportunity to make informed decisons....

are very very core issues to healing and recovery for ALL parties...

ARK

Arkie

I agree

NBII picked up on something VERY important

the title of this thread says it all

it is a critical thinking error

"POJA vs exposure"

If Suzet*s conscience was functioning in regards to OM's W ... she'd be telling her H

"My conscience is killing me. Let's POJA how to expose once and for all."

BUT

she's not

because she does not want to hurt OM & look bad in his eyes

Suzet* KNOWS this will make her very UNattractive to OM



Pep

If I was a WS...
and my BS was denying me the opportunity to tell...

NOT based on realistic fear of harm to the OP's spouse or
harm to ME/BS...

I would be very very wary of BS that would not want the right to know to be offered to the OP's spouse...

ESPECIALLY in this situation.....

where there is opportunity for the OP to stop his own chaos before it crosses deeper and deeper lines...

this is NOT black and whit knee jerking response to inform...at all costs...

I have heard the 'reasons' for not telling the OP wife..
I'm weighing them..

and I'm just not buying them...

ARK

Katie Mae, actually, a few days ago I’ve brought up the above topic and my concerns to my H (about the OM living in a fantasy and destroying himself and his M by his continuous belief that I’m his “soulmate”). My H’s words were more or less the following:

“I understand what you're saying, but if he wants to keep pining over you and believe you are his “soulmate”, it’s his problem – he’s responsible for his own feelings and you’ve already taken responsibility by breaking contact with him. We can’t take the risk of informing his W since this might lead to the breakup of their M and what then about those 2 innocent children? No, it can lead to too much drama and we don't need that in our lifes right now.”

I didn’t know what to say and since I could see my H was a bit irritated about me bringing up the subject again, I left it at that. Yesterday I have brought up the topic again during dinner and my H have asked me to stop obsessing about this and stop being influenced by the opinions on this board - that we've already reached a decision. He stand by his opinion that we should only expose if it really becomes necessary in future. That's why I think it will be good to get Dr Harley's opinion on this too.

then stop posting about the situation

.... and stop discussing your marriage infidelity on an infidelity board

2Bnormal, yes I remember that thread. Actually I've done a search on that thread earlier today and have read through it again.

I will appreciate it you can send me Dr Harley's e-mail address. Did you had to pay a consultation fee to Dr Harley before he responded on your e-mail?

Exposure to the OP's spouse is NOT a "POJA" issue, it is a moral obligation. Dr Harley has never said this was POJA issue and told me this on his radio show.

He told 2BNormal, who still has never told her victim, that the "BS should always be told." He told her that her H should be the one to do the telling, not her since that might result in contact. She didn't like that advice, so she wrote back that her husband adamantly refused to allow her to do this. What was Dr. Harley supposed to say to that? He replied something to the effect that he was ok with that then, but perhaps her h should get some recovery help. [he also told 2BNormal she should never be on the computer, which she ignored, but that is another matter]

The point is that exposure to the OMW is the best thing for the OMW and for Suzet. To NOT tell her is detrimental to their marriage, AS WE HAVE SEEN. Matters that are destructive to the marriage are NOT matters for POJA.

I find it very amusing that Suzet doesn't need her husband's "permission" to do bad things, but somehow needs it to do good things. She has a moral obligation to her marriage and to this woman and fear of her husband's anger does not supercede that. If she has to sacrifice her morals to make her H happy, then she has bigger problems than this.

Agree very much with Pepperband's suggestion:

"I am going to tell (confess) to THE UNKNOWING BETRAYED SPOUSE that there was an affair so he/she may protect his/her self . This is my moral obligation that my conscience demands. Let's discuss this, and agree to a plan that fulfills my moral obligation."

Suzet,
Do you have a way that I could email you that email address?

I wanted to say I understand where you are at. My H felt very similar and no matter how much I brought it up or showed him posts from this board, he would not change his mind about not exposing to the OM's W.

I also wanted to add, we BOTH had discussed earlier this year that should the OM contact me again, we would expose to his wife. Well...OM did try to contact me again and my H still did not want to expose to the OM's W. My H did leave a message on their answering machine for the OM to call him (and other stuff), and we don't know whether the OM's W heard that message. OM did return the call to my H and my H made it very clear for the OM to NEVER contact me again. I wanted to let you know this, because I really thought my H would expose to the OM's W IF the OM contacted me again. I really feel that if you don't expose now, your H never may.

.... except I mis-spelled

CONSCIENCE

The email address is jharley@marriagebuilders.com

No, that is his wife's email

I have Dr. Harley's email.

Here is the correct email address:

bharley@marriagebuilders.com

Yes, they share this email. He has responded to me with that address. Their email addresses are not secret.

See my post above. He responded to me from that email address.

No, I did not have to pay a fee. I originally wrote to the email address that MelodyLane posted, and that email was replied to over their radio program. However, when Dr. Harley replied to me directly, he wrote from the email address I posted above.

Mel, the only bad thing I did since the EA ended a few years ago was my recent "slip-up" during the exchanges with OM. As I've already explained on my thread - I received it at a vulnerable moment and was caught "off-guard" (a terrible choice and mistake I know and I take full responsibility for what I did). As you have probably read on my thread - I felt very guilty and disappointed in myself…I felt (and still feel) like a "failure"... However, I took immediate steps to try and correct the situation by confessing here and to my H and sending an approved NC-letter. But now I'm caught up between a "moral obligation" I feel towards the OMW but at the same time I have a need and obligation to not disappoint and disrespect my H’s feelings again. I’m afraid if I continue with exposure without my H’s full support he might resent me afterwards should there be any bad consequences which might affect us directly... That's why I need Dr Harley's own "out of the horse's mouth" opinion on my situation.

Your H wants to use the potential of exposure to OMW exposure as a punishment or a threat.

That is not its purpose.

If it is not his responsibility that OM pines..then it is also not his responsibility that OM marraige may end as a result of OMs own actions [and yours].

If I were you..I would tell him that it IS his problem that OM pines..because you are quite inclined to pine right back and escalate the affair.

You went from what was essentially a crush..to a full out admission of feelings of love within the space of a few emails..and after several years of active marriage building.

Please do not be arrogant..I think that we both know that *in* the moment..you can not trust yourself..which is why you would be well advised to do anything and everything to KILL all traces of the affair..to burn bridges...scorch the earth. Make the affair have an end not an intermission.

The fact that your H is not taking the depth of your attachment [addiction] and attraction seriously is very concerning..will it actually have to become a PA before it *counts* for him? It could very easily you know. All you need is time, opportunity..and just the right nudge.

So thems the perks from your end.

Not the real reason that you expose though.

The real reason is purely and simply..that OMW is being decieved..she does not know what is the truth in her own life..this prevents her from making decisions about a wide variety of issues that are affecting her..but secretly.

This woman *is* the victim of your advances on her husband and your intrusion in her marriage [don't bother arguing that it was him to do the advancing..I'm not going to argue semantics..you were involved and participated..that's good enough for me] which means that you are in her debt..and I hope that it weighs heavily on you..if it doesn't it says things about you to me that are pretty unattractive.

You..more than anyone..KNOW the truth and you owe it to her to give back as much as you are able..this is a big gift..a big step.

In my opinion..your H getting in the way for any reason is just wrong..and no..I don't agree that it is or should be open to negotiation at all save perhaps for the hows and details.

Would you negotiate whether or not to douse yourself with water if you were on fire?

Would you be willing to forego IC if you came to the conclusion that you really needed it to be able to function in a manner that you feel proud of rather than remain in sickness because your H was more comfortable with the sickness than with the idea of change?

I certainly hope not.

This is one of those issues.

It's about who you are going to be..for ANY reason..everyone has reasons..no gets to hide behind them.

Suzet you'd find a reson to do the convenient thing even if Jesus HIMSELF told you directly to expose. " Lord, my H didn;t want to".

Calling Harley is a waste of time. You KNOW exposing to OMW is the right thing to do. You KNOW It.

One day in Glory you will use those same excuses to God himself why you didn't do the right thing. Think He will buy it, 'cos I don't. It the lamest cowardice and I suspect you know it.

But "whatever" its you that needs to see your reflection in the mirror, not me.

Suzet, I would recommend that you ask him to write a response back to you. They will read your email on the radio and Joyce will probably let you know the time beforehand so you can listen. If you can't listen, let some of the others know so we can listen and take notes for you.

2Bnormal, thanks for the address. Thanks for your words of support and understanding.

Also..

I think your H is tired of having consequences dumped in his lap as a result of what he views as being..probably little more than a silly crush..or something of the sort.

He is *obviously* not taking the addiction aspect seriously.

He may very well resent any MORE fallout..but he would be well advised to accept that the fallout is from the AFFAIR not the exposure.

Cancer unaddressed will still kill you eventually.. people know this somewhere in their intellectual process..that's why they act..but nearly everyone who undertakes chemo feels resentfull about the pain once they experience it.

Many question whether they even want to continue..because although they know the facts..they don't KNOW/accept that certain death will be the result of that choice.

They know they don't like the sting of the current experience..the later consequence is distant and alien enough that a true denial is easily slipped into.

I sort of see your H in that place.

Obviously he loves and cares for you..but he isn't seeing clearly the threat that is before him I don't think..and neither are you..you CAN"T be trusted to be the person who safeguards because you are the addict.

I was never told the time beforehand of when it would be read on the radio program. But, as ML suggested, ask for a written reply. I had asked for a written reply to my original email that was read on the program and did not receive one. I had to email again to get a reply.

Suzet, it is because of your moral obligation to your husband that you should tell the OMW. By not doing it, the odds of a resumption of an affair with her H stay HIGH.

Your moral obligation is to do everything to AVOID an affair and to alert the OMW. You don't have a moral obligation to defy your conscience in order to avoid making your H temporarily angry. If it makes him ANGRY to do what is right and MORAL for you and your marriage, then you have a much bigger problem here that no amount of POJA will resolve.

Suzet, if I steal money from the store am I morally exonerated because my H will not agree to my confession? I would suggest I am not.

Noodle, thanks for your post and thanks for taking the time… I listen to what you’re saying. Please know that I’m not ignorant about this issue…otherwise I would have not continue posting about this and want too seek input from Dr Harley too.

Bingo. It is a waste of time and exercise in futility. All the reasons you should expose to her will still be there. You don't need the advice of a professional to know right from wrong.

I think this will eat Suzet*s guts until she relieves her conscience

True.



Not true.


I wrote back to ask: "Based on your MarriageBuilder's Principles, do you suggest that I expose this affair to the OM's wife by another means? Do you suggest that I disrespect what my husband feels and is asking and expose this affair to the OM's wife? "

I asked this question based on what everyone on this board was telling me to do. Expose regardless of what my H feels.

Dr. Harley would not reply directly to my question. Only that he was OK in letting my husband decide on whether or not to let the OM's W know about the affair.

Thanks Mel, I will do that (ask him to e-mail a response back to me) especially since I will not be able to listen to the radio show (because of different "time-slots" and I don't think I will be able to listen to an overseas radio show). However, if Joyce is going to inform me about the time beforehand, I will let this board know. Do you know how long it usually takes for them to send a response or read a response from the radio show since the e-mail is send?

2BNormal, he told you this because you insisted that your H would not allow it. What was he supposed to say? That is not a MB principle, though. Remember he also told you that the BS "should always be told." And he stated that this was NOT a matter of POJA on the radio to my direct question.

And you are still left with a OMW who does not know. What about her?

My email was responded to on the radio program the same day.

Suzet, I think if you email Dr. Harley directly and just ask for a written reply, he will respond without it being read and responded to on the radio program. Unless you want it to be responded to on the program?

I think it really depends on their schedule. One time it was the next day and the other time it was 3 days out. But both times I received an email from Joyce who asked me if I wanted to call in when my email was read. I really liked that because it gave me a chance to ask follow up questions.

What did you want Dr. Harley to say?

I do understand that the BS should always be told. And I do still feel the OM's W should know. But, I am still in the same position. My H does not want to expose to her. We even discussed this again last night.

2Bnormal, it doesn't matter to me whether the response will be read on the radio program or not. I will not be able to listen to it anyway, so I will make it clear to Dr. Harley that I live in a foreign country and needs his written reply on e-mail.

POJA is not a tool that addresses YOUR own conscience 2BNormal ..... POJA is a practical tool for getting mariage decisions made that do not cause resentment-building to either person in the marriage

if ignoring your own conscience hurts YOU (I happen to think it does) ... then you cannot be expected to sacrifice your conscience because doing that is not in your best interest....


back to the drawing board ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Suzet... I see that you are struggling with this question. I believe in my heart that your conscience is causing the struggle because you know in your heart what the right things is in this case. Does it really matter that Dr. Harley says A or B... I don't think so. No man, no matter how accomplished, is going to convince me that doing the right thing from an integrity and moral stand point is in fact wrong. YOU would want to know if your H was a cheater... the argument ends there... she has a right to know.
I can find you 1000 people that could make a good point on either side of this argument.. who really gives a hoot if they have PhD after their name or not. My ten year old can see right from wrong and would know what is right thing. You have tremendous power here to once again choose to harm a woman that you have already asaulted... or you have the ability to do the two things that can begin her healing process... you have vowed to do the first (leave her H alone) and now you must complete the task by letting her know.
If your H does not agree that you need to handle this in a moral fashion, I say there are some things that he will just need to accept. Your H may be afraid of this man becoming single and available to you. That is a fear he will need to deal with. You have an obligation here to do the right thing... and that obligation is simple... how would YOU like to be treated????
So, let's not worry about how Dr. H will respond to this (BTW, I have heard this very topic addressed in the past and his direction was clear that the BS must always be told... no abiguity at all... ALWAYS BE TOLD). But again... so what... you have a moral obligation to help the woman. You have harmed her and it is time to start making amends. It is that simple and there is NO wiggle room on this issue.
MEDC

Unfortuately, that does not erase your moral obligation to alert this woman. You have a MORAL OBLIGATION to tell her that supercedes your H's objection. Dr Harley was quite adamant that the OMW should be told in your case.

Yes, Dr. Harley made it very clear that the OMW should be told. Dr. Harley did not say that my moral obligation supercedes my H's objection. I never received a clear answer to that.

2B... do you really need another person to tell you that NOTHING supercedes your moral obligations???

You do not need Dr. Harley to tell you what your moral obligations are, because you ALREADY KNOW.

The first question read with your email on air was "do I have a moral obligation to tell the OMW?" Dr.Harley replied YES, and went on to qualify that the contact should come from your husband and not you.

Without going into details about my situation and my marriage...Exposing against my H's decision will cause harm to my marriage and my family. This is not the best choice to re-build my marriage. I choose to stand by my H and his decision.

*ahem*

sacrificing one's conscience is anti-POJA poison

Trying to POJA moral obligation is like trying to POJA abuse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> "Okay honey, you can hit me on Tuesdays". Not everything can be POJAed. Some things are non-negotiable (boundaries, values etc) and your sense of morality must be one of them....otherwise....morality becomes negotiable and consequently means nothing.

So what is her (2BN and Suzet)'s GREATEST moral obligation to? Their H's (who insist that they do not contact OMW), or the OMW themselves? Since this appears to be a moral dilemma, where does their greatest allegiance lie? Which is the best choice of the two...for everyone involved?

Should they violate the trust that they both have labored to rebuild with their husbands after the affair? IF so, why? In order to salve their own consciences (as it sounds like some of the reasoning is alluding to)? Or because it's the 'greater good'?

Or should they follow the allegiance that they swore to their own spouse? Should they focus on maintaining their own marriage first?

It's a moral dilemma...period. There is no "one size fits all" answer here. You can't condemn anyone for making EITHER choice...IMHVO.

Now...if either of them were refusing to contact OMW after their spouse insisted that they do so...that would be another matter entirely. But this isn't a clear cut choice that is a simple one...otherwise we wouldn't all be looking at this.

Owl, they do not have a "moral obligation" to not anger their husbands. They do, HOWEVER, have a moral oblgation to tell their victims what they have done to them. POJA does not ever mean sacrificing one's morals to avoid upset. POJA was never intended to be a sacrificial lamb for the duties of conscience. They still have a MORAL obligation to tell their victims.

Let's say I steal some money from my neighbor's purse. My H insists I do not confess; just let it go. Does that somehow absolve me of my moral obligation to make amends?

Of course it doesn't and it would be silly to argue otherwise. But that is what is being argued here to my amazement.

POJA was never intended to be a sacrificial alter for morals and matters of conscience.

I see your point Mel. But I've also got to say that your 'stealing money' wasn't a betrayal to your H...just to your neighbor. He wasn't directly hurt by your actions...he wasn't betrayed by your lies. You're not working on rebuilding your relationship with him.

It's not about 'angering' their H's. It's about betraying their trust again by going directly against what the H's have asked.

They have a 'moral obligation' to help their H's recover and heal from the affair. ANY kind of contact that has to do with OM that the H does not agree to can be a setback.

But I do see your point too...like I said...this isn't cut and dry.

And personally I don't see any sense in anyone berating them...they're simply caught between two difficult choices with (to them at least) no clear path.

We've all given them excellent reasons to take various plans of action...and they've asked for clear guidance from SH. That's all we can do...from here it's up them to sort out and make the choice and act on it.

[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

What about this:


When a wife submits to her husband, she comes under his covering and protection. I feel my greater obligation is to submit to my H.

... after you submit to God 2B

Owl, making amends to the betrayed spouses is not a "betrayal" of their husbands, the affair was a betrayal. If my husband demands that I violate my conscience, he is betraying me, though. There is no conflict of interest here. NOT telling the wives would be a betrayal of their own conscience and moral obligation. And they can't hide behind that obligation under the guise that their husband doesn't like it. That does not absolve them.

Of course it is difficult, but not because there isn't a CLEAR PATH. There is a clear path that is only muddied with rationalizations and excuses. No one would argue that it is EASY to do the right thing. But, if we only do the right thing when its EASY, then we can't really claim to have principles at all.

As is often the case Mel...we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And I HAVE submitted to God. I have repented of my A and turned from my sin.

Again:
Ephesians 5:22-23
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and make amends with your victim


.... I get the feeling you are really getting close to something wonderful in your life 2B .... but that it will require you to be very brave !

just a feeling

Pep

Repent ---- turn to God. Repent---- Turn from sin.

Sins-----wiped out.

do you apologize when you step on someone's toes in a line?

"OOPS... sorry."

or

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

do you repent silently?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep,
Stepping accidentally on someone's toes in a line is not sin.

so, it is ok to apologize for not sinning but when you screw the OM, and betray his wife- you don't have to make ammends?

When you steal money from your neighbor's purse, do you return it and confess your sin OR do you pray silently and go on your merry way?

you apologize for a simple accident

but not for sin? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If this were the sin of gossip ... and you found out I had spread gossip .... would you advise me to stop gossiping or would you advise me to stop gossiping and confess & apologize to my victim? My victim might be able to stop some of the damage if he knew....????

PS ... I am not kidding about the "something wonderful" comment ... I have a little fore-knowing once in a great while (embarrased to admit this)

go buy a lottery ticket, SOMETHING is coming your way .... and it's GOOD !

Suzet,
you said next time you will tell her- so did 2B. Next time happened for her- did she tell- of course not- she is not planning on it. I doubt she would tell if her husband said ok.

But, you can tell that next time really means nothing.

It didn't for 2B will it for you?

I seriously doubt it.

there was a story about a guy...

who hit a little girl with his car one afternoon after leaving a little happy hour...
on a busy city street..
though he was not drunk nor impaired....


it was HER 'fault' she ran out in front him ..
he did not see her
he could not see her......


it was totally the nine year old faults
yet she was paralyzed....

through the grapevine he heard of her injuries...

even though....

everyone said you did'nt do ANYTHING
it wasn't your fault...

the police cleared him...
the insurance company cleared him...
his associates at work told him not to worry about it...
his friends said...silly girl....not your fault....

yet he came to the point that he could not function to well anymore...

no sleeping

no eating

no rest

no peace.

he went to his finance...

she said go to the little girl...

he retaliated in anger..
why I didn't DO anything..
everyone says so...
I am innocent.....
he raged...

go see her said the woman ....

and he did...

he went to the hospital and in the hallway he met two angry parents ...though they couldn't say ANYTHING to him..
he really hadn't done ANYTHING to her....

he saw them...
he begged them to let him see her....

they stepped aside...

he went to the girls side...found her paralyzed in traction....

she looked at him...

she said...

I KNOW YOU
and I know why you have come....

why? asked the man...

To tell me you're sorry....

the man started crying and told him how very very sorry it was...

the little girl said that everyone had told her that he would not come,....but she knew he would....

she said that she knew that he would need to come...

he said I'm sorry...I didn't MEAN to hurt you...

she said ...
I know you didn't....and I am glad you came....
I want you to be at peace...said the little girl....


the title of this story is penance...

and it is cheesy...and sappy...but this post has lead to some deeper issues...

it is an ACT of penance....

moveforward,
You can assume whatever you like. But, if my husband would say expose to the OM'sW, I would! I was hoping that the OM'sW WOULD HAVE ANSWERED THE PHONE when my H called their house a few months ago, so she would be know the truth about her H.

As I stated earlier, I stand by my H's decision for our marriage and family.

2B....you weren't throwing around bible quotes when you were involved in an affair...your use of them now is seems far too convenient and more than a little hypocritical. However, hiding behind one bible quote on headship unfortunately leaves you at odds with other bible quotes and stories.

John the Baptist tells us in Matthew 3:8 to produce fruit in keeping with repentance; if we sincerely repent, we will behave differently. Who we are or how important we think we are makes no difference; we have to produce this fruit, as John commands in Luke 3:8. Repentance is a change of attitude and action, not just muttering, "Oh, I screwed up. God forgive me," and not restoring your harmed brother.

Repentance, obviously, should be sincere and should be accompanied by actions that reflect a change of heart. It is not a trivial matter. The Bible does give a few examples of repenting to other people. The parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:21) is one example. David repenting to Nathan (II Samuel 12:13-15) is another example. Notice that since David sinned publicly, he paid for it publicly. You are required to repent to God and whomever you have sinned against; sin publicly, you must repent publicly.

Hmmm...odd tangent thought here.

Since this is the Marriagebuilders site...

Does telling the OMW build the marriage? In Suzet's case, I'd say yes, since he's still actively pursuing her and attempting contact. I strongly feel that she SHOULD contact OMW...and she should simply tell her H bluntly that it's a step that has to be done in order to safegaurd their marriage.

Will telling OMW in 2BN's case help build the marriage? I don't see how...it's been over a year since the affair ended and no contact has been attempted (I think...could be wrong) since then. Doing so now does nothing to help build her marriage...but puts her H back into the memories and triggers of the affair. (and you know it will...all of us BS's have been through this...it's unavoidable when anything to do with OM comes up)

If the focus is supposed to be on building MARRIAGES (notice I didn't say morals...I said marriages)...what action should be taken? Now...if the plan here on this website is to enforce morality in EVERY situation...that's a different subject, isn't it?

starfish,
I don't know you at all. You don't know me except for what you read on here.

I don't view repentance as a trivial matter. My repentance was sincere and did and does reflect a change of heart. I turned from my sin and agreed with God that that I was in sin. I didn't just mutter a silly sentence as you wrote.

Owl, isn't the goal in life to do the RIGHT THING no matter where you are? I don't think morality is exclusive to a specific time and place, but should be practiced EVERYWHERE, even here. Nor do think sacrificing her morals on the alter of POJA is good for any marriage.

Owl, a couple of pages back, 2B said that her OM made contact- but AGAIN they POJA'd not to tell the OMW. This was AFTER they POJA'd that they would tell her should there be a next time.

2B, if you wanted to tell the OMW you would have done it - if your husband wanted to tell OM to stay away, I do believe he could have called back.

Part of POJA is JOINT- I can only imagine that if I didn't really want to do something I would not work very hard to present my side.

2B, you say you stand by your husband's decision - is HIS decision POJA?

I am removing myself from this discussion. I have to say that it is no wonder that the vast majority of people not getting the need to let the other BS know what has happened are FWS themselves. If they had a clear moral compass in the first place... they would never be on this site in the first place. I understand people change and that the FWS on here are doing the best they can... but obviously there is something off in many of their thought processes. I really need to get away from this line of thinking as it is starting to become depressing.
There are exceptionally few BS out there that would be able to stomach the logic being put forth here. I just can't do it anymore.

MEDC, some days I feel like I need to vomit reading this stuff, so I know how you feel. I just wash myself off, say lots of prayers and come back later. Hang in there, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There was a "discussion" in the past that we would expose to the OM'sW if he contacted me again. We never made a complete agreement. BUT, I had felt that my H would expose if this happened.


The OM DID call my H back! My H DID tell the OM to NEVER contact me again on this phone call. And HE DID tell the OM to TELL HIS WIFE!


And, you are mistaken if you think I haven't tried to present my side to my H.

I'm tired of going round and round on this same issue that many of us don't agree on. I am now bowing out of this disussion so that it will get back to the intent of the original poster, Suzet.

One last comment...and then I'll shut up, I promise.

IF my wife's OM had been married, I would have insisted that OMW be contacted...odds are very high I would have done it myself. If he'd been married, and OMW found out, I would have wanted her to contact me herself.


I BELIEVE THAT THE OPS SHOULD BE CONTACTED...


But to do so against the will and agreement of the BS is counter-productive to rebuilding the marriage. If you agreed to do something...especially ANYTHING to do with the affair...and then go back on it...you destroy your credibility with the spouse you've already betrayed.

Now...with the realization that OM has tried contacting 2BN recently...I agree that the OMW should be contacted. BUT...this HAS to be done by getting agreement of her BS FIRST.

Otherwise she's ONCE AGAIN destroying trust.

Don't think I'm advocating maintaining lies...or that I feel that the OPS shouldn't know. But this has to be counterbalanced against the greater need to maintain your OWN marriage...IMHO.

My opinion...that's it. I've voiced it, and I'll say no more.

Ya'll have fun debating this to your heart's content.

If you have to lie and sacrifice your morals to maintain your marriage, then you have bigger problems than this. That has no place in a healthy marriage with decent, moral people.

It is not "destroying trust" or "destroying credibility" to make amends to her victim, just the opposite.

owl..

I have yet to be convinced by the arguements presented for not telling....

are true marital deal breakers....

IF the affair is not a marital deal breaker...
then HOW does one logically choose

NON disclosure to an innocent party as the deal breaker...?

how does that work
how is that logical...

and often we must enact for the greater good of humankind...than via our own microscopic universes....

IF marriage building/rebuilding only values honesty and truth within the two parties...and can not or will not extend that value to other parties...it has little value or meaning....

there is no point to valueing honesty within...the marriage.....yet not outside of it

marriages stand for and hold great meaning....
within and outside of the context of the two people...

if speaking the truth was a deal breaker with my spouse..
I'd walk away from that marriage...

I would not be with such a spouse...
I want a spouse who wants better from me and for me..
as I strive the same for them....

God knows having a differing opinion turns you into a callous black and white ranter....

I believe the revealing of truth holds many gifts to all parties involved...
it is an act of love...when done correctly even if not received thusly....

I pray suzet and her husband can see beyond their own fears.....and look at it from a long term perspective....

not a knee jerk lets just get over this and never mention it again stance....

ARK

Well, luckily I'm not in that situation, isn't it?

But I guess that what you're saying is that anyone who is in a marriage where they'd rather solve their own marital issues than focus on OM's marriage is immoral and indecent? That their marriage isn't between decent and moral people? You obviously can't be talking to me, since you've clearly read that I'm not in that situation, and would have contacted OMW myself had I been in that situation.

Nope..

Intentional misread denied.

The message is..if the price of admission to the marriage is loss of integrity..the price is too high.

If I have to become a person I don't respect in order to sustain and nurture the marriage..the marriage problems extend well beyond the issue at hand.

Please explain to me how I misread Mel's response?

Arkie... I *heart* you



this is what saved our marriage

I watched my husband rise to the challenge

he confessed & apologized to the BH in person

if he could not be that man that seeks penance

he could not be my Godly husband

he grew larger in my heart that day

not smaller

You misread it by changing the point from self betrayal to focus on your own marriage.

What ML is saying is that suzet has to agree to do something she knows is wrong in order to be in agreement with her H.

Which is NO POJA btw.

Not real agreement either.

If maintaining your marriage requires that you engage in self destructive behavior..you have bigger rpoblems than whether or not you agree on any single issue.

2B, the he I was speaking of was your husband- if he wanted to talk to him he would have called back.


You must be kidding if you think that your husband telling the OM to tell his wife is going to work.

Surely you son't expect a man who is chading another man's wife to 'fess up' to his wife.

You know if this really bothered you and Suzet as badly as it seems to- you would find a way to present it to your spouse to bring you peace.

I know as a BS, I would do whatever it takes to help my FWS reach a place of peace.

It really is easier on you to not tell- you only have to live with yourself and your own guilt. You don't have to know how badly she is hurt.

It is not OMs marriage that is in question..it is Suzets integrity.

Thanks Ark for the beautiful story. It made me cry.
Thanks Pep for sharing that about your H - that's really, really beautiful too.

I adore my husband

he's THE light in my life

So Suzet's integrity would no longer be in question if she broke her agreement with her husband and told OMW?

I guess I'm blind...I struggle with seeing it this way. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet her husband wouldn't see it this way either, or he wouldn't have insisted on this in the first place.

If she can convince him to change his mind...fine. But if she can't, she should be MORE concerned with her husband and her marriage to him than she should be with OM's.

Sure, moveforward, I can continue to beat this down my H's throat until he agrees that we need to expose to the OM's W! Is that "Marriage Building"? That would surely bring peace in my life, wouldn't it??

Owl,

Respectfully, the biggest threat to marriage building after an affair is not how well you POJA, but the possibility of relapse and recontact. Priorities matter....here the priority needs to be honesty not secrecy.

What grows is what we FEED.

The BEST way I know to prevent the biggest threat to marriage building after an affair.....is telling the OPS! This is one of those cases where fighting infidelity is COUNTER intuitive.

Recently, I had a some relatives come in for a birthday. Turns out one of my cousins is involved in an affair with a married man. She is miserable and says she's ready to end it....has tried, but it just doesn't "stick". My advice to her was "I know just what to do if you're REALLY serious about ending it.....tell his wife."

I'm confused.

If a WS disagrees with exposure, and the BS exposes anyway, that is marriage-building..
If the BS disagrees with exposure and the WS exposes anyway, it's anti-marriage building?
Though in both cases the WS/BS might even say that the M is over if the BS/WS exposes?

Owl,

I liken it to a situation in which I recently also advised a recently WS to seek IC.

They said they would talk to the BS about it..but weren't sure if BS would be enthusiastic about it.

I suggested..do it anyway.

Some things supercede marriage building..they are relevent to our identities and self respect and emotional health..I believe that this is one of those things.

OMs wife has a right to know what is going on in her life and her marriage.

It is only coincidental that exposing OM to his wife also deals a mortal blow to the A fog. Therefore it protects the marriage. Exposure of the WS by the BS is not marriage building either by these standards..I have yet to see an active WS climb aboard this plan..yet it is crucial regardless of the wishes of the wayward.

Suzets H is not approaching this A as though it was an active threat to his M.

Suzet knows better and so does anyone who becomes educated about the nature of *addictive behavior*. She has not been fixed by this latest bout with relapse and remorse..she is still the same woman with the same issues that made her vulnerable in the first place.

It's a double edged sword really. Two separate issues that tie together in perfect alliance.

Suzet needs to tell OM wife for herself..to be a woman of integrity..and she needs to deal this blow to the A in order to burn bridges in defense of her marriage.

Her H is asking her to make a wrong decision and a dangerous one..I would no way have a problem breaking that agreement..in fact keeping such an agreement just because you agreed previously but have changed your perspective is anethema to the entire concept of poja anyway.

It is MB tools being used, abused, and misunderstood.

Owl...
sometimes we make promises in the heat of emotional stress...

or in the need to be liked
or not be rejected

because we are scared
or hurt

sometimes we make promises that we should not keep...
that we can not keep...

sometimes we tell our teenagers that they can tell us anything...and we promise them we won't tell...

the other parent
a friends parent
a family member...

and sometimes we come to a place where we HAVE to break that promise....

that we should not have agreed to something...because the danger or consequence is too great....

we all can and do this at some time...

this is without a doubt a huge exercise in growth and love...reaching beyond the microscopic realm...

this has NOTHING to fixing or working on the OM's marriage...
none of us have that power...

but this is about an individual sanctity to make informed decisions...
OR
even choose NOT to make decisions...

this has nothing to do with their marriage...

this has to do with one individauls RIGHT to know....

knowledge is power.....

three people hold this woman in captivity with the knowledge they keep from her....

how does informing her damage the core root of this marriage.....

what stops it from being spoken

fear?

realistic or unrealistic ?

in fact it's my opinion suzet and her husband are in the BEST position they could be..

they can play out together ALL the scenarios telling might bring..

they can plan
together
they can unify
together
they can grow together....

and they can sleep at night knowing that they righted a wrong...
even when it was scary.....

we often insist on things because we are scared...

once we step back..we often begin to see the other sides...

I pray this happening...

ARK

Melody... Thank you... you are one of the reasons I stay on these boards. I am just growing weary of what seems to be a symptom on these boards of late... it just seems that the logic I see here would be better suited for some other web sites that show little concern for the BS. I don't know where the moral disconnect occured in many of these FWS (not all) but it seems to follow them long after the A has ended. Your compass always seems headed in the moral direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> so thank you.

The only thing worse than making a BAD PROMISE is KEEPING a a bad promise. Using that as an excuse to avoid doing the right thing will not suffice. If I "promise" to not confess that I stole money out of my neighbors purse, it does not absolve me of my moral committment, it only means I made a stupid promise. There is no virtue in keeping a promise to do the WRONG THING.

Again...personally, I completely agree that telling the OPS is absolutely in the best interest of the marriage. Again, had my wife's OM been married, I wouldn't have hesitated in telling her.

If I imagine myself in Suzet's H's position...having established an agreemant with her that we would NOT contact OMW and there would be no further contact of any kind with that family...after several failed NC attempts...and not realizing the benifit of OMW knowing what's going on (unless of course she decides to divorce him, thereby freeing OM up even further)........and she contacts OMW anyway...I would be FURIUOS. I would view it in the light that she chose to worry about OM and OMW's relationship over OUR relationship. It COULD be a deal breaker in the marriage...violated trust once again after all the other lies and deception.

Again...this is all with the realization that Suzet's H does NOT see the value in telling OMW in the first place.

Realize I see your point...but it's very easy to understand why Suzet and 2BN aren't in agreemant with everyone else...see this from the viewpoint I just described.

It's NOT moral cowardice...it's NOT either of them being immoral...it's simply them attempting to discern their best course of action based on their knowledge of their husbands and how they've responded to this point with the affair(s).

I'm reminded of the movie "Unfaithful" where the OM is murdered by the BH. The WW becomes fully aware of it.

In the end, it appears she has chosen her marriage and family...and protects her H.

Interesting...

That is because she was a hooker posing as a mom and wife. Finding morals in her was impossible.... I saw the ending as her protecting herself and her reputation... not her husband. If her dirtly little secret came out her sham of a life would have been exposed. My take on it was the the H had the morals and eventually would have confessed his crime... his character was on display throughout the movie... even the homicide was an emotional reaction rather than a premeditated event.

That movie was sickening in all respects.... except Diane Lane is very cute.

Owl, you are saying that she should accommodate her spouse's ignorance by sacrificing her principles. How does that help either of them? What in the world kind of marriage is that?

It is not a violation of trust to break a bad promise. However, it is a violation of MORALITY to not confess your crime to your victim. It is a violation of trust to lie and have affairs. HONESTY IS THE SOLUTION TO INFIDELITY, not more lies and not more secrecy. A spouse who demands their spouse sacrifices their morals to accommodate some illusion is unacceptable. Asking her to sacrifice her morals is an unreasonable demand.

A person who is truly remorseful and repentent will WANT to do this as part of a HEALTHY RECOVERY. The very legitimate moral obligation she has to tell her victim cannot be superceded by any hypothethical anger of her BS. Shame on any spouse who would get angry over this!

You are trying to equate breaking a bad promise with "lies and deceit." You can't equate making amends to one's victims with "lies and deceit." There simply is no rational comparison as one is good and the other is bad.

That made me sick.

Ow gosh... most movies with A's make me sick.
"One Night Stand" is a weird exception.
Julia Roberts makes me sick.
Bwaaaa.... (sorry for the threadjack, guys)

Unless I'm mistaken, at the very end of Unfaithful, doesn't it show Gere and Lane pulling into a police station on a rainy night?

I never saw that part. They were driving down an empty street on a rainy night at the end and sort of glanced at each other in a silent assent to keep their secret.

A point that seems to be overlooked in this debate is - exposure places an ally for NC in the life of the OP. NC becomes a two way policed thing therefore much more likely to be adhered to.

OM GF and I forged a partnship to keep OM and Squid apart and it worked really well. YES OM GF hated Squid, YS it was painful and brave for me to do YES Squid hated it BUT IT HELPED SAVE OUR MARRIAGE.

WIthout exposure you can 'try' to maintain NC but WITH exposure you're COMMITED to it IME.

I thought Connie Sumner was a very believable character. Even though I'm a man, I experienced all the same things she did. It was nauseating to watch it portrayed so vividly.

I don't think her motives were "self preservation" in the end. I think she felt responsible for driving her H to murder and felt she owed him newfound loyalty and commitment no matter what. I think that's how I would've felt.

I only bring this up here because it's a situation that I think challenges our absolutes. If Connie had turned her H in for the murder, she destroys her son's family and sends her BH to prison.

I wonder how many of us in that situation would ride our "morality" to it's inevitable conclusion?

I have no idea how I would've handled that situation had I been in it.

For Suzet and 2B...Here is what you say to your husbands...

I AM AN ADDICT...(first you MUST admit that to yourselves-and not be deluded into thinking that you are somehow stronger than any other addict-A BIG STEP...)

then you say...

I LOVE YOU VERY MUCH AND WANT TO PROTECT US BOTH FROM MY ADDICTION. TO GIVE US EVERY ADVANTAGE, TELLING OMW IS ONE OF THE BASES THAT WE NEED TO COVER IN THE MARITAL RECOVERY PROCESS...I HAVE COMMITED TO STAYING AWAY FROM OM, AND TELLING OMW WILL FURTHER ASSIST THIS COMMITMENT, AS IT WILL PROVIDE ADDITIONAL INSURANCE THAT OM WILL STAY AWAY FROM ME TOO...ALSO, AS PART OF MY PERSONAL RECOVERY(healing), WHICH WILL HELP TO MAKE ME A BETTER PARTNER FOR YOU, I MUST MAKE AMMENDS TO ALL OF MY VICTIMS...THIS IS A VERY CRUCIAL AND NECESSARY STEP FOR ME, AND THAT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE. I VERY MUCH NEED YOUR SUPPORT IN DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR ME AND OUR MARRIAGE...I FEEL THAT WE WILL BE GREATLY HARMED BY NOT TAKING THIS ACTION, THEREFORE, I CANNOT ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREE TO NOT INFORMING THE OMW...THE OMW MUST BE TOLD, WHAT METHOD OF TELLING HER DO YOU THINK IS BEST?

I would very much question why my husband did not want what is best for me and our marriage...


MEDC...

I think you may already know this, but I am a FWS that is as equally outraged as you are by some of the thinking around here...Just wanted to let you know, that you are fast becoming one of my favorite posters...Keep it up, knowing that there are others here that agree with you...

There are some days that I'm unable to decide which bothers me more, the fogged out, self-serving thinking or the over-the-top "PCness" of some whose posts scream "why can't we just all get along?"..."everybody must decide what's right for them!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />....AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Mrs. W

No, it didn't.

I don't think it challenges our "absolutes" at all, if there were no absolutes, there would be no issue. I think it challenges ME because I KNOW right from wrong. I absolutely know what the right action would be. I just hope and pray I could do the right thing in that situation.

p.s. I agree with you 100% on your interpretation of Connies reasons for keeping the secret. It wasn't about self preservation, but about a feeling of guilt about the affair. What a horrible movie.

Whenever I hear two people who are admant about an "easy" topic, I have to look futher:

From a quick Google of the movie:

The special edition DVD features the alternate ending where there is a different dialogue after they both kiss in the car, during the final scene. Richard Gere then steps out of the car (very emotional scene) before walking up and entering the police station. Fox & Regency wanted this ending at first (it was more Hollywood-esque, in-your-face, clearer kind of ending), but the director and the cast insisted that they put in the current ending you see on the theatrical release.

whew! I like that ending much better! I will have to see if mine has an alternative ending.

"No, it didn't."

I'm pretty sure it did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Mrs. W. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Thank you... the feeling is mutual. You provide me hope!!!! I too have enjoyed your posts and unwaivering morals.... I know there are other FWS out there that are thinking clearly after the A... it just seems that the boards have been flooded with some fogged out thinking lately! Again, thank you.

Don't we wish all problems had an "alternate ending" where we could just back up and start from scene 2587 and "retake?"

Yeah, yeah, before you start saying, "But we ALWAYS have a choice of an alternate ending...." we can't just remove that ugly scene that really ruined a good movie.

Anyway, glad also that we could resolve one problem today.

Except....
Did I just hear Mel ADMIT to owning this movie on DVD? Say it isn't so. Maybe she's just doing research, or she was hoping for some good nudity from Richard Gere. You know they almost cast Robert Redford in that role? Guess they liked the job he did with Indecent Proposal.

Now, we've totally jacked this thread....sorry.

Bravo! Well spoken as usual, MrsW! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hubba hubba! He is tres' cute! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am not a big movie watcher but I caught a piece of this movie one day while flipping the channels and landed on the scene where he won't return her calls and she is in withdrawal. From what I knew about withdrawal this was very true to life, so I went out and bought the movie. The movie is VERY GOOD in that it is seems true to form in its description of an affair.

Of course it was a horrible movie...that's why every WS and FWS SHOULD watch it...not for punishment...but for insight.

Nice to know that I come across as "overly PC"...I can garauntee this is the only place I've ever been accused of that up to this point!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And again I want to stress...I completely agree with telling the OPS...had my wife's OM been married I would have done so.

So what should happen here is simple...Suzet and/or 2BN should simply go tell the OMW the whole story, and then go back to their H's and tell them that they couldn't abide by what they'd agreed on, and rely on their H's to eventually come to realize the true reasons and value behind doing this (assuming that they've already tried to explain this to their H's...). And pretty much expect their H's to 'suck it up and deal with it' until they DO reach that point.

That it in a nutshell?

yep.

I'm still confused.

If a WS disagrees with exposure, and the BS exposes anyway, that is marriage-building..
If the BS disagrees with exposure and the WS exposes anyway, it's anti-marriage building?
Though in both cases the WS/BS really doesn't want it and might even say that the M is over if the BS/WS exposes?

I just saw your post, ncw. Things are going as well as they can be at this point. I am working out of country and essentially out of contact with STBXW.

Actually, I think a piece of factual information is just that...a fact. Truth involves applying some kind test to a fact that yields a T or F outcome.

"This item reflects light on a high frequency wavelength" is a fact. Apply a test - Is this item blue? "T or F"

A false outcome does not mean a lack of facts, but only that the current facts don't fit the situation. A lack of facts can only yield an outcome of "indeterminate".

Whether something is true or not depends on the tests we apply. A lot of people test facts differently, yielding different "truths".

Oh baby! I am liking this ending much better! Under "deleted scenes" there is a chapter called the "police station" where they pull up to the station and let him out. He walks up to the station while Connie sobs and the movie ends.....

You know about repentance leading to restitution 2B? Or is it just enough to you saying sorry?

How's your conscience going? Nicely seared now isn't it. Don't worry. It won't be troubling you for much longer.

You've got it in a nutshell Noodle.

Exactly.

Integrity.

Sadly in short supply.

Loworbit:

I just wanted to chime in and thank you for posting this above. HYPOCRITAL.....is what it is. "Situational Ethics"?.....absolutely. You nailed this one. I have to bite my tongue everytime I read a certain section of this board and read the "situational" ethical rationlaizations....Ughhhh.

OK, rant over. Good post.

Lem

I have been gone a while...and I see that some things don't change. Excellent post!

Lem

Thank you to all who offered advice to my situation. I have spent much time over this weekend in prayer and thought to all that was said.

We are to make direct amends to people we have harmed wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

My husband and I have thoroughly discussed and prayed about this situation. With using great discernment, we believe that exposing to the OM1'sW would cause harm to our family and potentially the OM1'sW. (for those that do not know, the PA of this A has been over for almost 3 years. The online part of the EA ended 2 years ago)

As I stated in an earlier post:

I can make amends in part, by no longer participating in behavior that caused this harm. [The part that says "except when to do so would injure them or others" also includes ourselves in the "others" and also includes my family]

I have made amends with all such people in which I would not cause harm to. I have made amends with my husband, I have made amends with OM2's W, and I have repented to God and have agreed with God that I was in sin and I have changed my heart and my actions to reflect that. I have chosen to be accountable to my H and to reveal any contact that I should ever receive from either OM. I have proven my trustworthiness in this by not responding to the OM1 when he attempted to contact me, and by immediately informing my husband.


I very much LOVE my husband for doing what is BEST for me and our marriage and LOVING me enough to make this decision that would not cause further harm to anyone. I fully trust my husband's decision in this to protect our family from any potential harm and to not cause any potential harm to the OM1'sW. I fully trust my husband's decision as the best decision for the continued recovery of our marriage. My husband makes many decisions that involves great discernment through his ministry position at our church, and I believe God has very much gifted him in this area. Many people look up to him with great respect and seek his counsel. The "fruit" of his choices and actions and decisions he makes through his position is greatly respected by all who know him. I continue to choose to stand by his decision.

Again, thank you all for allowing me to further examine this. I will not be discussing "my situation" any further on this thread. I will continue to pray for Suzet and her H as they continue in their decision for what is best for the recovery of their marriage.

God Bless,
2BN

So now we are trotting out AA steps since nothing else has worked? A new day, a new rationalization! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But, you don't need our approval, 2Bnormal. You don't need to convince us, so these never ending rationalizations are completely unnecessary. The only person you shortchange in your refusal to make amends is the lady in the mirror. As a member of AA, I will just tell you from personal experience that making TRUE AMENDS is an indescribably freeing experience that will change your life and facilitate your TRUE recovery if you will stop fighting it. Fighting it is so much harder than just doing it!

Making amends to your victim will remove a DARK SPOT from your soul. Is it easy? No, it's not. It is not always easy to do the right thing. But it is RIGHT. And it will bring you in alignment with God to truly repent. The rewards are unspeakably wonderful: it is like a BATH FOR THE SOUL!

True repentance means making amends to your victims. Don't be like the bank robber who imagines he is forgiven even when he refuses to give the goods back to his victim and turn himself in. ["hey, I just said a little prayer asking for forgiveness and I was good to go!"] The only person fooled by little ploy is the bankrobber. You have NOT "turned away" from your crime when you continue to lie to cover up your deeds. You only compound the crime. Truth is the solution to infidelity, not more secrecy.

I am honestly flabbergasted at the length to which you will go to avoid doing the right thing. Your campaign to rationalize not confessing to your victim is almost pathological. We have watched your amazing gymnastics since MARCH. If you spent one fraction of your time doing the right thing, instead of striving so hard to AVOID IT, you probably could have changed the world by now.

First you tried to hide behind Dr. Harley by twisting his words. Then you tried to hide behind POJA. When that didn't work for you, you very selectively cherry picked some verses out of the Bible.

Others quickly shot holes in that little ploy, so now you are onto a NEW one! You are now reduced to cherry picking Alcoholics Anonymous steps! As a 21 yr member of AA, I PROMISE you we don't use that qualifier in Step 9 to avoid doing the right thing as you are doing here. That bullcrap would not fly.

AA Step 9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

You know and we know that you would not be "harming" the OMW or your H in confessing your dirty deeds. The OMW was harmed when you pulled your panties off and got it on with her husband. The TRUTH is the solution to infidelity, 2BNormal, not more secrecy. So, don't insult our intelligence by telling us it would "hurt" her to know. This is the last place you should expect to fool anyone with that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Give it up, 2B, you only shortchange yourself with all these machinations.

Some have been here for awhile .......yet could Learn a THing or 2 from a relative newbie by the name of Katie Mae!

Just ask her.
Doing Right,
usually ISN'T the route that is Most Comfortable.

Katie Mae has some serious BALLS and a kind, caring heart! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And I received the expected reply. Again, thank you all for allowing me to further examine this.


No, I do not. And I am so glad you think you know what is best for my marriage.

I will not be discussing "my situation" any further on this thread.

2B, I am so sorry you are being treated so disrespectfully
for just stating what you and your husband's have decided to do concerning this issue of telling OM's wife after years have passed.

On this MB forum, we are suppose to be able to express differing opinions and ways of recovering our marriages without being 'potty mouthed'.

This same question about telling OM's wife (after several years had passed) was asked on a Christian forum.

All replies were: Do not tell; quite a contrast to this secular forum.

This post explained it best. The advice was given to this lady by her pastor.:

"Since you do not know what has resulted between the other man and his wife, and whether or not he has repented or has continued his behavior, to bring it up now could be devastating to their relationship. Since you are really not friends with the OM's wife, you should just leave it alone. If the OM does not confess to his wife, it is on his head.

Your only concern right now is your relationship with your husband. Concentrate on that and realize that the OM is an adult that has his own repentance and consequences to deal with. But never contact the OM again to discuss anything. Leave the past where it is, work on the future with your husband.

And I praise God that you and your husband are able to work through this difficult situation. It sounds like you two are working together on restoration. Keep up the good work.

You do not need to tell this woman anything."

So Rude! And unnecessary.
Doesn't really help anything does it?
Unbelievable.
Utter disrespect for another human being in that whole post.

Thank you SURVIVOR, that is EXACTLY what I was
referring to about DISRESPECT in my post above yours!

UNBELIEVEABLE that she would use such disrespectful language!

IWRA, I was quite restrained and respectful in my reply if I do say so myself. There was nothing "potty mouthed" about it. I will tell you who is being "treated disrespectfully" here. It is the WIFE of the man who 2Bnormal jumped into bed with.

That being said, do you think that anyone with a decent, moral mind should "respect" such a disrespectful stance as 2BNormal has taken here? She knows she is in the wrong, or she wouldn't be endlessly grasping for the most harebrained rationalizations. Now, she is reduced to scrutinizing Alcoholics Anonymous steps looking for potential loopholes. Sorry, but I just don't "respect" that at all.

And what kind of a "friend" would encourage her to avoid the steps needed to truly repent? I am not surprised, though, because you are also a wayward wife yourself. Shame on any pastor who would wrongfully encourage her in such a dereliction of duty. True repentence requires making amends to one's victim by confessing their sin.

2BNormal has every opportunity to make that right by making amends to this woman, as a truly repentent Christian would, but she refuses. She does not care one whit about her victim as she has made it clear that her only concern is HERSELF AND HER MARRIAGE. To heck with her victim and her marriage. Anything that does not benefit her own situation does not interest her. Never once on this thread have I seen her express true remorse for her victim; it's all about her. Because in her mind, that is "someone else's problem."

Isn't it "rude and disrespectful" to pull your panties down and get it on with some other woman's HUSBAND? Of course we should have disrespect for that! THAT is unbelievable! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

[hey, at least I didn't say "RUT LIKE A PIG!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />]

Don't stroke out on me, girls! Let me change that statement lest you girls get worked up in a lather:

"The OMW was harmed when you pulled your panties off and rutted like a pig with her husband!"

Is that better, girls? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Melody Lane, you may have 17,693 posts verus my few
but YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM POSTING ON THIS FORUM
with disrespectful posts such as above.

What is wrong with you this evening?
Something MUST BE WRONG for you to write such cruel posts.

2BNormal is a FORMER WW, 2 plus years down the recovery road.
WHY DO YOU TREAT HER SO DISRESPECTFULLY?

What in the world is wrong with you that you would be morally outraged at the WORDS used to describe her ACT and not the ACT itself? Please cut the PHONY "moral outrage."

No one here is required to use cute words to describe a despicable, filthy act, IWRA. If you feel you can get me banned for accurately describing what she did, then I would invite you to email the moderator.

This is a marriage building forum. It is designed to discuss Marriage Builders principles.

Potty mouthed?



Where is the dirty word in this statement..."panties", "got it on"???

The truth IS ugly, isn't it? Affairs are ugly.

So you think its "CRUEL" to point out that someone slept with a married man, which is TRUE, but somehow NOT CRUEL to sleep with another woman's husband and then refuse to admit it to the man's wife? Are you really that twisted in your thinking?

MY GOD, what has happened to your mind? Honestly. Do you not see something terribly wrong with that line of thinking?

"potty behavior" sometimes invites "potty mouth" along for the ride ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

what do you want to call the act of having sex with another person's spouse?

..... consensual amoral rutting .....

or ummmmmmmm


..... bootleg fornication .....

or.... lemme think .....

.... booty burglary .....

..... nookey looting ....

here's a good one .....

..... raping a marriage bed .....

my point is .... no matter what we call it ... it is U G L Y

Pep

I thought I would add some ideas for this. How about these fine phrases???

For the Jerry Mcguire fan… Shoplifting the pooty?

For the Anti American… Genital Terrorism?

For the Lawyer… Removal of the briefs?

For the Doctor… Giving the secret injection?

For the Fitness Expert… Eating at the Y?

For the Thug… Hit it and quit it?

For the Agro-American… Playing spank the Farmer??

For the Wiley E Coyote Fan… Fornicatus on the Downus Lowticus?


I could think of more I suppose. All really pretty…for sure. Not.

The "dark spot" was removed when I repented to God, agreed with Him that I was in sin and changed my heart and actions. My sins were washed away and God will never slam them in my face over and over again as some love to do over and over on this board with such "choice and hurtful words" and utter disrespect.

2Bnormal,

in my humble opinion it's not God who judges.
God's love is always there, no matter what we do or don't.
But we know when we are not loving, when we are not compassionate, but looking after our own selfish needs.
We know - a little voice tells us.
The voice of our conscience, that carefully weighs our actions against this example of total and unconditional love.
At the end of our life we will stand before our own judge, our own conscience.
So we have to be careful about our choices.

Yes, God forgives. When we REPENT. A changed heart is evidenced by the fruit it produces. And when you show no compassion to your victim and refuse to make amends for what you have done, everyone can see your "fruit." Climbing into bed with another woman's husband and refusing to make amends to her is what is incredibly "discrespectful," and leaves a dark spot on your soul.

And it is your right to judge my repentence? You know me personally and what I have prayed and spoken to God about?

The fact that what you would say is true (or think is true) does not necessarily make it right to say. Often Satan's accusations are true; he is an expert at being a judge. He is even called "the accuser of our brothers" (Rev. 12:10). You may be pointing your finger and speaking words of truth, but you may unwittingly be an instrument of the devil as you speak.

It's alright, 2BNormal, you don't have to justify yourself to me. We both know that one must make amends to their victim to be forgiven.

The fog induced, conflict avoiding, cowardly, consequence avoidant, A supportive drivel that has spewed forth on this thread turns my stomach.

Are we all looking at the same creature here?

The thing I’m looking at is so heinously ugly, so sordid and despicable, that to harm a partner to a higher degree you would have to pull a pistol out and shoot them in the head or murder one of their children.

Now, in that scope I dare anyone to defend exposure to parties directly related to the A. That would be the S or the OPS. They both need to know everything.

Go over to recovery and read about people that have discovered these events 10 or 20 years AFTER they had concluded and witness the utter decimation of character that they have experienced and then tell me that something that significant shouldn’t be brought to bare in the crosshairs of honesty.

Ask anyone that is a FBS if they would rather not have ever come to know the truth and continued living a lie for the rest of their lives; burning up the pages of their story that can only be written once.

Plank.

You are correct.

I know He Rescued my soul
His Blood covered my sin
I believe I believe
My shame He's taken away
My pain is healed in His name
I believe I believe

Pastor advice from a different forum:

Your only concern right now is your relationship with your husband. Concentrate on that and realize that the OM is an adult that has his own repentance and consequences to deal with. But never contact the OM again to discuss anything. Leave the past where it is, work on the future with your husband.

2B,
You are thinking and acting in such a disrespectful way here yet you have shifted the focus of that disrespect to the ones that have pointed out how hurtful your actions continue to be. Read Plank's post and think about how much of an insult to the OBS your rationalizations are.
Please reconsider your actions and if you can't... please stop discussing your willingness to leave the poor woman that you assaulted dazed and bleeding. Your appraoch is exceptionally distasteful to many BS that have suffered far too long because of the failure of someone to step up and make a difference. Until you right this wrong, you are that someone.
MEDC

Just what these boards need... another milk toast apologist!!!!

Actually..

There are quite a lot of *pastors* who advocate and teach to NEVER tell ANYONE including your own BS.

For just those same reasons.

Personally, if I am lying in a puddle of my own blood in a ditch..I'd sure like to know how I got there and what help might be available to me.

I can name at least one prominent womens bible study [cough kay arthur cough] writer who also advocates this approach.

WSs who want to find support in the christian forum for not exposing will not have to look far.

So then agree to disagree. I made my statement based on what my husband & I have agreed upon. No one needs to judge the decision we made. You don't need to worry about me and the actions you all think I need to make.

Please understand that this is not the time to consider it "barging" into someone's life. That has already been done.



NOT to bring it up IS what it devastating to their marriage and the OP. Do you really expect anyone to believe that these Exposure Cowards here are doing it out of a desire to PROTECT another marriage???

I suggest it is out of a desire to protect themselves from taking responsibility for their actions and making amends to their victims.

ItWon’tRianAlways,

[color:"blue"] Plank, sure it would be best if the OP's spouse knows of the
affair but is that the responsibility of the FWS?[/color]

If it’s been years? My experience in this world is that the BS will emotionally flush the years between the A and DDay down the toilet on many occasions.

Let me ask you a question. Would you be more injured if it was 2 months or 20 years of flushing that was to occur?

I for one would want to know. I would want to know why everything was “my fault” and how I was demonized for months or years during their A. I would WANT to know what part I really had in our M. I would want to know what my life’s story really was about.

Justifying not telling someone that you committed an atrocity against them even years down the road isn’t fair to them IMO. Actually that’s a classic enabling attitude that a lot of passive aggressive people use to cope with conflict and get what they want out of life at everyone else’s expense.

The damage is not complete yet IWRA. The damage only stops to compound after exposure. That is my belief after reading thousands of stories and watching all the plays unfold about A. That’s based upon reading human emotion on these pages and my own life’s experiences and what I know is right.

Plank.

So what? They would say, "thank you, I already know." No harm done. I don't GET THIS rationalization, it doesn't even make sense.


Wonderful, a pastor who advocates deceit and secrecy and an appalling LACK OF EMPATHY and compassion for 2BNormals' victim. In direct CONTRADICTION with the Bible.

2bnormal,

Explaining likely effect from cause is not judgement.

It's predication based upon experience.

Well, yes we can judge the decision you and your H made. It was a callous, selfish, heartless decision that shows absolutely no compassion for your victim. We are not worried about YOU, but about your victim.

Remember her?

I don't understand exactly how exposure qualifies as making amends. Exposure brings to light a wrong that was done, but it doesn't correct it (though it would help in the case of an ongoing, active affair)
The way I see it, the only way to "make amends" as a FWS is to stop the affair behavior. Telling a BS about that affair is fair and right, because they need to know what they are dealing with. But that alone isn't enough to make amends, IMO.
Honestly, I sincerely doubt that, as a FWS, I could ever really make amends with the OM's W. The fact that she knows makes me realize that I desperatley need God's forgiveness. If it were up to the OM's W to decide whether or not I deserved forgiveness, I'd be in ****** right now.

Agree plank.

Every single person I have posted to or read about who has discoverred the A YEARS after..EVERY SINGLE ONE..counts every minute of those years a waste and a lie..sometimes they look back at their whole lives together as a lie.

It stains every tender moment, every holiday, every child born under that lie. Twists and perverts every moment, decision, conversation..you name it.

I cannot even describe the misery I have observed from those who have had their choices taken away from them..and years of their lives lost.

So please do not insult those men and women with the notion that you protect their marriages by protecting yourself.

The WS is not a child and it can not all just go away because they changed their mind.

Real people and real lives have been affected and INFECTED with the fallout of the affair.

Refusal to step up and take responsibility is pure undiluted cowardice.

I quite agree. Let's stick to that, please, and stop throwing things at each other <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />.

The best way to make amends to someone you have harmed is to CONFESS what you have done to your victim. Whether they forgive you or not is irrelevant. But repentance is necessary to recieve God's forgiveness. To not tell them is to compound the crime by adding DECEIT, and shows an incredible lack of compassion and emphathy.

When the bank robber robs the bank, it is not enough for him to just stop robbing banks, he has to confess his crime and return the money. That is what true repentance looks like.

I agree in a way, that you can't really make amends to someone unless they KNOW about the crime. Repentance does require an admission of guilt accompanied by a change of heart and behavior, and the Bible does say we need to confess our sins to each other, and forgive each other....Yes, I see what you're saying now.

Now..

I agree..let me make it more clear still.

Say I sneak up behind you and cut you then run away.

You are incapacitated and not aware enough of what has happened to identify the problem.

Eventually I feel some guilt about what I have done..

[you are still bleeding by the way]

So I think about it..

[still bleeding]

I decide I must repent!

So I go into a closet and say I'm sorry.

[still bleeding]

Then move on with my life and forget about you as best I can. When I do think about you I sure do hope that someone found you and helped you..but I have decided that since I said sorry it isn't my responsiblity any longer.

Where does that leave you..and would you find my remorse credible under those circumstances?

Wow, that is pretty clear....clearly cowardice. It would be tempting to recommend to 2B not to expose since so much time has passed, but I can't help but think that perhaps the OM's W is struggling in her marriage right now, taking all sorts of abuse (emotional or otherwise), wondering what the heck she is doing wrong, wondering why her husband is distant and uninterested, thinking maybe there is something wrong with HER, because maybe he is out there carrying on with another affair since he "got away" with the first one.

Is there a statute of limitation on exposure?

Think of all the time that has passed..as time she may very well have been bleeding in ignorance and disorientation..will MORE time provide relief?

I believe not.

As much as it is hurtfull to say..when you have cut someone and left them to bleed to death..more time only makes it more likely that they will be beyond helping.

The hardest part is to admit that this is what you have done precisely.

As long as a person can hide from that..there is no end to the amount of time they can turn their back on their crime and try to self determine which consequences are allowed and which are not.

MEDC,

"Just what these boards need... another milk toast apologist!!!!"

I have absolutely no doubt that you are eloquent enough not to DJ another poster by defining them, which is within their domain, not ours.

Name calling isn't productive...Harley doesn't recommend it, that I've found, in any instance.

LA

Allow me to once again, stand up and broadcast MY stupidity, as embarassing as it is/was, for those that may not know or have forgotten.

I went for about 10 years totally ignorant and blind to my H's cheating.


2 years? YES! 4 years?? YES!! 6 years??? YES!!!!!

thanks for the advice.

What bothers me is that behind the justifications for not exposing, in many cases, is the belief that the other couple, (the OM's and their W's, or the OW's and their H's,) will not be able to work through this crisis. That somehow, the OP's marriage is not strong enough to withstand the fallout. That somehow, it is more "merciful" to allow them to live in ignorance. To me, that is a disrespectful judgement, (or maybe it is really wishful thinking!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) The success or failure of any marriage cannot be based on ignorance. You are actually taking control of someone else's marriage by deciding what they should or shouldn't know.

NOW,

Have you ever read any Kay Arthur?

In general I like her stuff..her style drives me nutty..but I like the topics and her in depth approach.

Shocking to discover that not only does she not advocate telling even your own spouse..she suggests resuming sex with them asap!

YIKES! Betrayal heaped on top of betrayal!

Noodle

I have read some of her stuff....I can't remember now exactly what...I have the book(s) stashed somewhere.....I didn't know she believed that! I have noticed that Christians are excellent conflict-avoiders, myself included. I was brought up that way, too. I am pretty sure that there is something not quite right about the traditional Christian teaching on conflict, but can't put my finger on it. I can tell you, that you, ML, and some others, made me mighty uncomfortable (still do sometimes!) with your approah, but in my gut, you ring true.

IT Won't always rain:
Hello.

No disrespect,
[As I understand you Mean Well]
but this is where your conclusions (or your pastor's) just don't hold up for me .

First,
to Expect a WS to out themselves, in Most cases --- is just not being realistic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
{We all know the endless excuses as to why they don't .....no need to delve further on that}.

Next,
Too many "ifs" in your belief system.
VERY dangerous game to play to be making HUGE assumptions about OTHER people's lives.
But lets take a look at a couple anyways.

OK,
So
if the WS is now a FWS and HAS outed himself .........then there IS NO Detriment to having the OM's BS notified about it.
The BS will simply say "yep, already KNOW that .........leave us alone".

However,
in the MORE Likely scenario,
that the BS doesn't KNOW ........then Getting Relevant Information about her life would be VERY Helpful.

Let's start with medical reasons ......which in this day and age are VERY Very REAL!
Nuff said.

Next,
Maybe he is a serial cheat and this is all this woman needs to make a final decision.
(note: see where all the ifs and maybes get us? Now ya got me doin it .....Just too many variables to take into account).
Honestly,
The persons themselves would do a much better job with the information we Hold, then us Guessing FOR them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lastly,
if we think of A's, and lies and deception as an infection ..........well, if the infection goes along undetected .....there is NO possibility of Ever Treating it.
Heck, the first step in getting healing (in either situation) is to have a Proper diagnosis.
Can't Treat what we Don't Know about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Also,
Think back to the thousands of WS (FWS) on this board alone, that NEVER made any Changes in themselves or in their marriages ...... Up & Until they were "outed" and caught.
Yet,
once caught and FORCED to really LOOK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> at what they were doing and WHO they were becoming ........Actually made some real changes in their thought patterns and Of course their Actions.

So again,
"if" (as you say) the BS already KNOWS, simply reaffirming that fact will barely be a ripple in their pond.

On the other hand,
the benefits that come with giving an unsuspecting person a TRUE diagnosis of their situation, is priceless.
Sure it will be painful ........as it is to anyone that experiences Infidelity.

But don't confuse the anguish of finding out .......to the true trauma of all the lies and deception.
That is the true enemy of any person that respects marriage and family.
Its not the message or the messenger that is the problem .....it is the selfish actions that need to be uncovered to the cleansing light of Day.
Only then can the wound begin to be cleansed and ultimately healed.

In addition,
reasonable people consider it the responsibility of ANYONE (be they the BS, FWS ) that has Learned these principles to be a Responsible enough to Inform whomever the party is that has been Left out of the Loop.

Never lose sight of the fact [that if Both infidels are married] that this situation is shaped more like a rectangle --- as there ARE 4 persons Equally effected by the infidelity.
Sadly,
its the RARE case that Both BS's Find out at the same time.

Look,
it shouldn't come down to Luck or chance that a person has a real Opportunity to Save/Heal Their marriage or make otherwise informed decisions about their Lives.

Indeed,
Are we to adopt the same selfish and ME, Me, me mentality / approach to life as Current WS's??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
That being 2 fold.
First, holding the power over someone else (cause information IS power).

Secondly [And more importantly]:
Some how buying into the flawed concept that ---
Hey, I've discovered MBers and am making strides to Improve "MY" life ......but because I was just LUCKY enough to discover it FIRST (the A) ....."well, good for me & mine ...but your ON Your OWN and YOUR SH*T out of Luck" ???
SAY WHAT!?!?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So if YOU were caught on the Other Side of the Coin (they know, you don't) You'd STILL take this stance?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
If so, WOW ......that speaks volumes!

Why would ANY BS (or person with any understanding of MBer type principles and teachings) not want to give the gift of knowledge that they only WISH Anyone had given to them EARLIER then they found out on their own?

Unfortunately,
we ARE responsible for One another.
Our lives are very much intermingled, due to 2 persons Un defendable actions.
Most likely You blame their spouse .....they'd probably blame yours .......but its all connected.

Back to the power/information thing for a second.
You start of with a lot of "ifs" in your posts.
However,
once all the Facts are on the table, who would you Trust more to make the decisions in YOUR Personal Life?
Yourself or someone else?

I highly suspect you'd say You.

Well,
if that's the case,
why would Anyone that reads here proscribe to do what ALL WS do .......and that is make Decisions for other's without ever giving them the Chance for any input??
Guess I'll Never understand that logic (as its illogical when WS do it) sooo its STILL illogical when others take on the same Justifications due to some fear or discomfort.

Unfortunately,
the Place that I MOST read about "Never tell" --- "Don't get involved" --- and "its NONE of MY business" is over on TOW.
They ALSO believe that its ONLY the MM place to TELL his own W.
I'm not saying that to be critical ......simply to state an Observation.
{However, IMO it's just as twisted a perception there as it is here}.

For sure,
When your thinking is MORE in line with the persons dedicated to Encouraging and Supporting infidelity,
then with Those wanting to end it and Support marriage/family ......That should REALLY give you pause and perhaps get you to re-examine your position.

Just as we are Not children ......neither is the Other BS.
Given the relevant information .....they TOO can make the correct decisions for THEIR Lives.
Who are we to take that choice away from them?
Or anyone to take it away from Us for that matter.

I resent any and all that did it too me.

Why is it such a stretch to Put myself in the others persons shoes and DO FOR them, Only that which I WISH someone had done for ME?

Remember,
Once given all the facts ........the "ifs" just go away on their own.
They do.
Then its just Life.
But a life based in Reality .......not the fantasies and other manipulations of some WS bent on making life all about their own selfish needs.

[Sorry got a bit long ......just kept coming out]. Happens sometimes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Think of it this way ....the more words I type ....the more others have to dissect and attack. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Again, there are two ways to say things. One is meant to assist the other person in resolving the issue or to better understanding of the problem.

Example: Mel COULD have said:

"2BN, OMW was harmed when you and OM had the affair."

Instead, Mel says things like:

"The OMW was harmed when you pulled your panties off and rutted like a pig with her husband!"

See the difference? There's no intent to help...or at least it surely doesn't do anything to assist the poster...instead, it's deliberately phrased to antagonize and hurt the other poster.

I don't think that 2BN is the only poster here who's got a lot to learn...I think Mel could stand to let go of a lot of her OWN anger without taking it out on others.

Armchair psychiatry is over for today. Have fun ya'll.

IMHO, If 2B was really comfortable with her decision, she would not have posted it here and on a 'christian' forum. She would have just not told and gone on with life.

Instead, every time anything remotely comparable is brought up we go through this again.

If she doesn't want to tell she is the one that has to live with that.

However, maybe after all this time she would realize she is not going to have her optinion validated here and she is not going to change the minds of the people who believe the OMW has a right to know.

If she doesn't want to be told to reveal, then maybe she should stop brining it up.

Yeah...but then how would I get my "cat fight" fix????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (j/k)

Intriguing, from a man's perspective....not so much on the topic and the opinions....but as to the different WAYS women tried to convey thier opinions about the topics.

Actually MF, I have remained QUIET about this since March. I only came on this thread to offer encouragement to Suzet and was immediately blasted. I didn't come on this thread for advice at all, but yet felt I had to defend a decision my H and I made long ago.

What part of Scripture does this come from?? First Fleshalonians??

ML is right on!! Repentence looks a whole lot different than this. It is sorrow, it is turning from your evil ways, AND it is making amends. Anything short of those three things is NOT Biblical repentence!!

In His arms.

Noodle posted:[quote[Every single person I have posted to or read about who has discoverred the A YEARS after..EVERY SINGLE ONE..counts every minute of those years a waste and a lie..sometimes they look back at their whole lives together as a lie.

It stains every tender moment, every holiday, every child born under that lie. Twists and perverts every moment, decision, conversation..you name it.

I cannot even describe the misery I have observed from those who have had their choices taken away from them..and years of their lives lost.[/b]

That is absolutely the TRUTH! My FWH finally admitted to a one-night stand 13 years after the fact...13 years of verbal abuse, hateful behavior and extremely disrespectful behavior toward me. Chances are that the OMW in 2BNormal's case is also in this same situation, and possibly agonizing over what she could possibly have done to deserve this treatment.

2BNormal, I didn't realize that your H is a minister. I'm sure he is very sincere in his faith, but perhaps he should examine his own motives in not wanting to tell the OMW. I'm sure that one of his concerns may be that the OMW will tell others about your affair with her H, and that word of the affair will get back to the members of his congregation. Could it be that he fears his wife being a topic of scandal and perhaps losing the respect that he now enjoys? Could he be more concerned over the possibility of his own embarrassment?

For Biblical reference, read Matthew 5:21-24.

2bNormal, you have a BUNCH of BS telling you that you will not be hurting the OMW by telling her the truth that she deserves. Most of the ones agreeing with you appear to be either WS or FWS, who quite naturally don't want their dirty little secrets to be exposed, either.

You and your H should do the right thing and inform the OMW, NOW!

LC

To clarify, NO he is NOT a MINISTER. If you read my post, I stated he is in a MINISTRY POSITION at our church.

2B,

I am in the largest marriage problems group on yahoo.

We did a survey about this. Only one BS said they wish they could have stayed in ignorance. They have since changed their mind.

I was in ignorance for 18 years and suffered so much like the other BS here thinking it was me. Going to therapy for years trying to be a better wife a better person.

This is not your husband's decision, it is not yours, it is the Lord's.

To receive forgiveness we have to repent and that includes showing contrition by telling the truth to those affected.

OMW was and still is affected. I do not know how you will come to terms with telling her, but I sense you will eventually.

You have gone to God and asked for forgiveness, so you obviously have a renewed faith, but faith without works is dead. So find a way to do the works. Find a way and the Lord will carry you through it and any of the tribulations that result from it.

God Bless you and your husband and inspire you both to bless the OMW with the truth.

SP

For those that know my story...I found out about my W's PA (1998) after our divorce, I found out what an EA was after D-day of that PA (6/04) when we decided to try and reconcile...which was made even harder by attempting a recovery..which was when I eventually found MB...I came to boards about 3 months later..I sure wish I knew why I went through all I did....

It is my opinion that every spouse has the right to know, the only person who knew was my FWW's best friend, who told me of rumors after our D. There were no rumors, she KNEW and did not tell me...she had other motives...her decisions cost her two friends....me because she did not tell me right away and FWW for her "other motives".....

I felt as if half my marriage was a joke because of what she did....sad thing was everyone EXPECTED that it would be me who was the infidel....

Anyone who does not tell the OBS is in my opinion still a WS. Until EVERY stone is turned over and the nature of the A is exposed to the light of day to all agreived parties, there is an active betrayal and that is what allows A's to survive.
I am sorry if that offends some.. but it is my opinion that true healing and recovery cannot begin until these "cost of admission" items are handled.

I'm sorry; I mistook the ministry position as being a minister.

However, what I said about his examining his own motives still stands. His possible fear of losing the respect of church members should not stop either of you from doing the right thing.

I don't know what denomination y'all are, but the Bible is very explicit that when we have wronged another (or that person has a grievance against us), we are to go to that person for reconciliation before we can lay our offering (or take communion) before God. I don't think that "reconciliation" in this context necessarily means that the person forgives you, but that you go to that person, confess, and apologize, which is basically all you can do in your situation.

Oh, and whether the person knows she has a grievance against you is irrelevant. YOU know that you have wronged her; and yes, by not telling her, you continue to wrong her, in direct disobedience to God.

Bumping for 2B - Mortaman has it right on here.

You seem to have it nailed 2B with sorrow and crying out to God for forgiveness. How about making amends?