When it comes to an affair, who takes the brunt of the blame? I say the person that is in a committed relationship should, my wife thinks the OP is more responsible. For example, my wife used to get really mad at the OW when her EX cheated on her.....she would go after the OW, then her EX would get a tongue lashing. I think the committed person is responsible for allowing the affair to take place.....No matter the situation, or how HOT the other person is, the committed still has the responsibility of turning the OP down. The OP (unless they are married also) is going to be an evil hunter, they are just doing what is natural to them....even though that is wrong to. I think the WW and the OP are wrong in an affair, but I feel the married (committed) person is more responsible. My wife feels the opposite. What do you think??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It is a no brainer... the one that made the vows to the BS is to blame. Although the OP is a dispicable human... they are not breaking a vow to YOU. They are not looking you in the face and lying to you... they are not risking your family... only their integrity.

You would think its a no brainer, but my wife feels that the OP is like a preditor, and is just after the committed. I agree with you totally, but for some reason my wife (even though she knows the committed is wrong) places the majority of the blame on the OP. *shrugs*

I think you're both right. The wayward spouse is the one who've made the vows, and the OP is the one that pursued a marrried person. Those both seem pretty responsible to me. If the WP is "mainly" responsible....that lets the OP off hook to some degree....and I don't buy that. Even as a single person....I have a responsibility to God and to my community to value the sanctity of other people's marriages. As a married person....I have a responsibility to others as well as my own.

If you go over to TOW....that's exactly the rationalization you'll hear "I wasn't married....it wasn't my fault....I didn't break my vows." But both people in an affair have a choice to compromise/or not....the marriage involved and when you enter an affair with a married person...you enter that marriage and become a third partner.

please don't get me wrong ... the other person is responsible for what they have done... the question was who is more responsible.. and I say the person that made vows to the M is the one that had a duty to protect it.

I guess a lot depends on your perspective if you are WS or BS.

I'm a BW...my H made a vow to me, whatever manipulation OW used it was his choice to break the vow.

I understand your point.....and as I said, that's the argument that I hear OP use...that it wasn't their duty to protect vows they never made. I say it IS. Until everyone involved is willing to understand the tragedy of infidelity and protect the sanctity of marriage (even if it isn't their own) it will continue to damage to themselves, their partners, the BS, the children, the community and GOD. It is a higher level of consciousness and accountability that I'm not willing to give OP the loophole to exploit.

I find equal blame in both parties....

marriage... the definition alone stands for TWO

marriages are a social standard....in which we are asked as people to respect and uphold within the community

each wedding we ever attend is an invitation to stand and support the definition of marriage...

it is not changable upon whim, feelings, attractions, or verbalized baloney...

it is what it is.....

OPs single or married participate in an attack on to the BS...

their own actions place in jeopardy the wellbeing of the BS and children....

each moment
each monetary exchange...

are things stolen from the BS and the family..

they are active participants....

lost for sure...
but they KNOW and CHOOSE what they do with the WS...

Here's my example...

In the series
Sopranos...the character that creeps me out the most..
the character that disgusts me the most..

is
CARMELLA the wife...

she knows exactly what Tony does to obtain the fruits of their lives....

she knows there is blood shed
she knows there is corruption and destruction...

she knows....

she supports
she condones

the others are who they are....and know who they are and what they are....and can not deny it nor do I believe they would

as does Carmella...
she has equal blood stains on her hands....in my opinion..


I believe we all have commitments to one another do no harm to others especially based on feelings....
we have no right....

majority of blame ..nah
equal blame...
yep I do......

you can't hold respect for any marriage if you engage in an affair...
it is illogical at best....

WS gnash their teeth when they find out a WS lies to them...
yet all lies to the BS to facilitate the affair are fair game...

but life isn't really like that is it.....

ARK^^

good points ark and something for me to ponder.

I'm looking at this from a different point of view.....StartinOvers wife wants to blame the OP because placing more blame on the OP reduces any blame on herself for any problems in the relationship. If she shifts blame to the OP then the OP has somehow meddled in their relationship and caused this problem, which has corrupted the WS. How could she have any blame if the OP and the WS were the parties contriving all this??? In her mind it eliminates her guilt all together.

She point isn't about who is responsible, her point is that she didn't have a part of it.

And every time I hear some OP bleat that out, I just have to say that That's The Stupidest Damn Thing I Ever Heard.

To me, it's exactly like saying, "Well, I never SAID I wouldn't break into somebody else's house, so when the neighbors left it unlocked I just helped myself!"

WTF is up with that?

What Ark said - if none of us are required to respect SOMEONE ELSE'S marriage vows, and the people in the marriage are expected to just desperately fight off all and sundry who feel like helping themselves, well, geez, it's no wonder the social structure is the f***ed up mess it is today.

Who bears the blame for the affair?

Easy. Both the WS *and* the OP.

The OP for worming their butt into someone else's marriage in the first place, and the WS for just standing there and letting them do it.

The OP for intruding in the home and the WS for failure to protect that home.
Mulan

How could she have any blame if the OP and the WS were the parties contriving all this??? It her mind it eliminates her guilt all together.

well she doesn't have any blame in the affair...and it's actions....

none

she should not feel guilty about the affair...

but to serve her marriage she needs to look at action within her marriage....that contributed to a poor marital relationship IF ANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but she is not to blame for the affair...

right??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ark

Very insightful post, Ark.

I agree... both parties are equally responsible.

I use to blame myself... I asked OM for a drink. I started it.

The truth is, he had been flirting with and pursuing me for at least a year before that fateful day.

We both made the choice.

Even if one of us wasn't married, we were still both to blame.

There is a huge amount of anger to be directed "somewhere."

Use the Lovebank theory.
For the BS their spouse has a 750 out of 1000 balance. (in love)
The OP is at zero. (BS doesn't even know them.)

D-Day happens and its a 500 withdrawal.
OP is now at -500.
WS is at 250.

Mostly likely the BS ~hates~ the OP. But at least there is something of a balance remaining in the WS's account. So there is some chance of building the account back up.

Ever been around a co-dependent person??? I'm not saying there is any blame for them to own, I'm saying in their mind if they can pin the problems on someone else, it eliminates the guilt in their mind. Co-dependent people think they are to blame, but they also like blame shifting.

The affair is the person's who commits the affair problem to own.

askme..

the thing is that those are seperate issues...

she is entitled to as much distaste for the actions of the OP that she desires...

it has nothing to do with state of marriage....
and whether it was bad or not...
some are not bad ...
people cheat because they do....

her failings of a spouse can not be mixed in to in addressing the evils or non evils of the OP

infact much more may be accomplished by agreeing with some of the villification of the OP and making it a NON issue..


yep you're right
yep you're right
yep you're right...
etc etc etc...

if you fight and powerstruggle with shift blaming it will get you no where...except in a huge side show of he says she says....

and even if and when a BS tries to make them one issue....

turning it around on the failings of a WS as a spouse...

isn't going to work....
it will push further away from looking inwards....

this junk takes a long long time to process and work through layers...eh?
sadly
unfortunately
as you know....

what I am saying when a BS is going on and on about the evils of an OP..it's probably NOT the best time to remind them what their failings are/were as a spouse...

ARK

I blamed ow more - I think as a defense mechanism - I had an emotional attachment to my exh and not to the ow. How would I be able to forgive him if he was to blame? Make any sense? It took my 22 year old son to point out to me that it was his Dad who betrayed me - he is the one that had promised not to betray me and he did.

I've gone back and forth on this one, but I keep coming back to the WS as the primary and the OP as the accessory. Using Mulan's analogy of breaking into a house with an unlocked door, how about this?

Instead of OP just seening an unlocked door, how about looking at it like the WS OPENED the door when OP knocked? WS should have slammed the door in the face. Instead, we get, "Hi, come on in!"

In my case, the OW is 21 years old, and was only 20 when she allegedly PURSUED my WH. I don't care how insistent she was, WH needs to remember his vows, and the pain the A would bring upon his family.

I also am angry because people who stood up at our wedding were complicit in the A. This, IMVHO is also accessory after the fact. They should be equally ashamed. They stood up at the wedding, and by their presence, entered into a contract to honor the M. Didn't believe we were a good match? DON'T GO TO THE WEDDING. You are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Stonecold...

Agree 100%!

I don't believe anyone held a gun to WH head to have sex with OW. He made the choice, his own free will. He knew he was betraying his vows to me and his family, yet he willingly did it. No excuse.

OW, who is M, should equally take the blame. She betrayed her vows to her H. She knew my WH was M with kids. She knew he was old enough to be her father, yet she knocked, and he opened the door.

Their justification was both their M's were having trouble, so they vented to each other. Okay........

They are both to blame.

I too had someone stand up in our wedding that is siding with WH, told him he was surprised we lasted this long! Nice friends huh?

I'm not saying that I was perfect in my M. I know I did things that probably made WH want to look elsewhere, didn't meet his EN's, but that is no excuse for an A, IMO!

Easy enough in my mind.

Your FWW is more responsible to you then the OP.

I don't even know the OM. I don't care to know him. Before the A he had no effect on my life. My FWW took a vow to me. I know there are men and women out there that do not respect the sanctity of M. He was one of them so he wasn't married.

There have to be two willing parties in an A. Each willing party is responsible for their actions and the people they care about. He didn't care about me so I don't hold him responsible for my feelings.

I hold my FWW responsible to care for my feelings.

So in MY mind my FWW is more responsible because only she agreed to take the vow that said she would love, comfort and care for me every day of her life. He didn't make that vow to me.

I believe he is responsible for his actions but not my feelings.

This sounds like an easy question.....but it isn't. What if the OP is your sister for instance? I've been around this board for a long time and I've seen all kinds of scenarios.

*The OP was a trusted friend or family member.
*The OP was an MC or doctor.
*The OP was a teacher or clergyman.
*The OP was a member of this board.

Nobody gets off the hook. Every affair partner is an adult with a choice.

These things are a no brainer:

*Dating or having sex with someone while you're married....is just plain wrong.

*Dating or having sex with a married person....is just plain wrong.

Wrong is wrong....and arguing "wrong-ER" seems kinda pointless. If we limit our accountability to only our own marriages....then it will sure make it easier to look the other way if we know our friend is cheating on his wife....wouldn't it? We....as fellow human beings....are our brother's keepers.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK!!!! What your son said to you, is exactly what I said to my wife. She understood me then.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK!!!! What your son said to you, is exactly what I said to my wife. She understood me then.

Yep - it was pretty sad that it took a 22 year old to point that out to me - but once he did I understood - the ow had made no promise to me - exh did. I still do place a little blame with her though - can't totally let her off the hook.

I think a lot depends on the nature of the A. I guess, if the OP was a friend of the family and knew we were married, I would assign say 40% of the responsibility to OP. I say 40% because I believe the WS always bears a majority of the responsibility. My rationale for this is that the WS always has the power to grant the relationship to OP without it being infidelity. They can get a divorce.

However, in my sitch, I don't believe initially OP knew my WW was married. As my WW tells it, he knew we were married, but she told him she was getting a D. If that's the truth, then I would assign say 10%. IMO, it is wrong to date a married person, regardless of whether the state of their M. If there is still an M, no dating. I'm pretty sure OP now knows we are still married and is probably aware that we were not separated, etc. So now I would assign say up to 40% of the responsibility.

FWIW, I don't think assigning blame is worthwhile. In fact, and some may disagree, I would go with whatever amount the WS wants to assign to OP or themselves. At least initially. Work with and allow the WS to come to the right conclusion during recovery.

This may not work in all cases, but is WS has committed to try NC, and in the beginning, WS says it was all OP's fault, go with that and leverage it to reinforce NC. Leverage it to POJA extreme measures to avoid contact. I'm exaggerating here a little, but is WS says, I couldn't help myself, OP just kept pursuing me, say "Okay, honey, your right, I can see how with that temptation there was nothing else you can do, then we need to cancel your cell phone, get rid of all computers, change jobs, move, etc." If WS says, It was all my fault and OP is a good person, leverage that. Say "Okay honey, I can see you are in charge of your actions, so it should be no problem for NC, OP wont pursue you cause their a good person and if they do, you were always in charge, so you can ignore them"

I guess what I mean, is rather than fight about who's to blame, just agree and develop an action plan. WS will either agree with action plan, or resist it. If they resist it, they will have to "come around" so to speak, without any arguement about it.

Let me guess - was she the WS? If so, that sounds like blame-shifting to me. The WS is 100% responsible for letting the A happen - end of story.

In my case, I can get angry at the OM for having an A with my FWW, but I don't blame him for my wife's A. My FWW chose to get involved with him, and she's 100% responsible for making that choice.

In my sitch WH gets 60%, OW 40%. OW KNEW me and him and KNEW we were married. That's a boundary that SHE knows should never be crossed.

WH gets more blame because he was M so that is his/MY/OUR boundary that he allowed to be crossed!

Initially I blamed OW close to 90%. WH told me she initially backed off and he pursued the EA further. That shifted my blame to WH getting 90%! Time and innner healing, plus the continuation of the A gives them a closer ranking now, but since WH is STILL participating he's getting more blame.

But I hate to even use the word blame. It's easier to type but the real word is responsibility. Yes, I now know I had my share of responsibility in the unhappiness of our marriage, but I didn't seek solace outside of the M.

I shall bear NO blame!

Going to be real transparent here......my EX wanted a divorce from me to be with "a real christian man" words out of her mouth......he is a married preacher at my former church. I knew him for 8yrs. Anyhow, it started as an EA and I guess even though both are really to blame (and are hyporcrits), I still blame my EX more.....because she was committed to me (as he was with his wife)....but SHE knew better. ******, he knew better too. I still say she should have just said NO THANKS!

Nope......her EX was a serial cheater.....she knew about 4 or so of his affairs. That means there was probably a dozen of them.

I agree completely.

The thing with it is as a married person you have a responsibility to be faithful to your spouse.
The other person does not have the resposiblity for your S to remain faithful.
If your S decides to be unfaithful that is their decesion. The OP cannot make them be unfaithful. They can be a willing partner in an A but they cannot force it on to the married person.
So the WS is responsible for not starting an A.

IMHO. I do beleive everyone has some morals. Most people believe sleeping with a married person is wrong. I think that a WS has to be pretty obvious they are interested in an A for the OP to even act on it.

I don't see many people making a move on a married person if they did not feel pretty confident.

Where did the confidence come from?

This is a no brainer. My or your WW, WH is the most at fault unless there was an emotional or physical rape that took place and we weren't told. At the same time there are predators out there who prey on vulnerable men and women alike and they are much worse than those OM/OW who make mistakes and let boundaries get crossed. These sorry good for nothing low lifes actually premeditatedley approach someone with intentions to have an A or just sex with the vulnerable party. These people are the scum of the earth.

Yes you do....and you have a bigger responsibility than that too. You have a responsibility to protect other marriages. You have a responsibility to let someone know if their spouse is cheating. You have a responsibility to protect children....the innocents in these scenarios. You have a responsibility to protect your family from scandal and disdain. You have a responsibility to protect your own soul...your own character....from unethical conduct.



No....but they have all the other responsibilities to self and community that I mentioned and that's still an awful lot. As a human being....I DO have a responsibility to someone else's spouse....even if they are stranger to me. It doesn't take a "vow" to know that harming someone else...even a stranger....is wrong. Sleeping with someone's husband creates harm.

If your S decides to be unfaithful that is their decesion.

Not entirely. If I'm the OP and I say...."you're marriedand you need to leave" he can't be unfaithful with ME!! can he? If every potential OP said that....there wouldn't be much infidelity would there?

The OP cannot make them be unfaithful.

And the WS and cannot MAKE the OP an OP either. It is a mutual contract....and requires consent from both parties or it doesn't happen aside from rape. I have a choice to help someone be faithful even if I'm attracted to them and lonely....or be selfish and accept what they offer.


Willingness=responsibility.


What if the OP is your sister?....that is a convenant too!! Or your best friend? or your minister? But no matter whether there is a convenant with between the BS and the OP or not....the OP have convenant with THEMSELVES and God. When you knowingly harm another person....and infidelity HARMS....you have as much responsibility as anyone else. I agree with ark^^ Tony's Soprano's wife has as much blood on her hands as he does....whether she yields the knife or not.

That may be true but they do not have that responsibility to me.

My FWW does.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

This world would be a much better place if everyone were better people. That is not the case though.

The fact of the matter is there are people that will have A's. There are women that chase married men and men who will chase married women.

There was actually an article in maxim on line and it was how to land a married woman.

Wow imagine that. What a wonderful world.

I did not enter into a marital contract with the entire world. I did not enter into a marital contract with every tom, [censored] and harry that would sleep with a married woman.

I entered into it with my FWW. She has/had the responsibility to honor that contract.

Everyone knows that infidelity happens. Everyone says I wouldn't do that. It was my FWW's responsibility to make sure that didn't happen. Not the OM's. The OP could be anybody if the S wants an A. Soon enough they can find comfort in the biggest scumbag in the world.

If I cheat on my FWW I can tell you one thing. I would be responsible. I have had chances. I have declined them because I have free will. My free will told me it was wrong because I made a vow.

I cannot live my life hoping there aren't people that would engage in and A because we know that isn't the truth.

I don't care if it was my brother, my best friend, my pastor or anyone else. She entered into that contract with me. She is responsible to me.

Let god figure out the OP's part. I don't care who they are.

I would say that it would hurt more if it was someone I trusted or loved but the fact is she made the vow to me.

Do I think the OP is a bad person yes. Do I think they are responsible for their own actions? Yes. Do I think they are responsible to me? NO. My FWW was though.

There are people who do not believe in the sanctity of M. There are people who believe they should enjoy life to the fullest and if that means sleeping with a married person so be it. I do not expect the world to conform to my beliefs on infidelity. I expected my FWW to though.

OK, how about using the addiction scenario that we use.

Who is more responsible for becoming addicted to smoking crack? The crackhead or the drug itself?

The crackhead 75%... and the crack 25%?

I believe the crackhead has to own up 100%

The alcoholic or the booze?

Temptation is always out there! On commercials, almost every cover of a magazine. In the music, etc.

The OP can be the sister/brother, best friend or what ever, and if they pursue the spouse then they are evil...but on a different plane or universe. They own 100% of their sin.

But the WS owns 100% of the betraying and destruction of the M.

IMHO

krk