Over the course of the last six months I have read everything I could get my hands on about adulterous affairs. Among the best materials are Dr. Frank Pittman’s Private Lies, Dr. Shirley Glass’ Not Just Friends, Love Must Be Tough : New Hope for Families in Crisis by Dr. James Dobson, and all the books by Dr. Willard Harley. I have tried to synthesize the best of these explanations of the pathology of an affair.

There are several different types of affairs, but this post will deal with the “romantic” type. In this type of affair, the wandering or wayward spouse (WS) has crossed a boundary and “fallen in love” with an affair partner (OP, other person). What makes this affair so difficult to deal with is that it is emotionally driven. The “in love” state is often so powerful that the WS may be willing to sacrifice the marriage and just about everything else to pursue it.

You have probably heard about or known a teenager who has been told that the person they are dating and in love with is using him or her or is demonstrably bad for them. Have you ever seen such a person take anyone’s advice and stop seeing this lover? It’s rare, because one’s emotions corrupt any attempt at clear thinking. This is what happens in romantic affairs. It is a powerful fantasy relationship in which the partners may idealize each other and bond in a way that makes everything else in their lives seem insignificant by comparison. If your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair and agrees to break it off, you are extremely lucky.

From the point of view of a betrayed spouse (BS), one’s spouse having an affair appears to be a rejection of you in favor of someone else. This can be a devastating blow to your self-esteem. You hear things like “I love you, but I’m not in love with you,” and other statements along similar lines. You are shocked that this person who pledged to love you through thick and thin or until “death do us part” has suddenly forgotten that commitment or decided to revoke it without advance notice. (Chances are your spouse never talked about a marital crisis or separation or divorce before the affair.) They don’t want to work on the marriage, and you don’t understand why. They latch onto any events in your past in which you had a disagreement with them, no matter how rare or insignificant they seem, as evidence of your incompatibility. They won’t go to counseling, or if they do, they use it by sabotaging the counselor’s efforts and then tell you “I told you it wouldn’t work!” They won’t stop the affair, even though you can point out a dozen practical reasons for stopping it and fixing the marriage. They are not concerned about the children, after all, “they’ll adapt.” Your joint personal finances are jeopardized because the pursuit of love is more important than worrying about money or mortgages or credit card bills. Your wandering spouse’s family and friends may turn against you too. You don’t know what they’ve been told, but it’s a safe bet that they’ve been given a laundry list of grievances against you, while carefully leaving out the details of how they lied, cheated, and deceived you to pursue their affair. Of course, all those things were justified because you weren’t a good spouse, and this new person in their life is their true soul mate.

You’re angry, upset, and depressed. You fluctuate between these emotions while trying to make sense of it all. But you can’t make sense of it because infidelity is not a sensible act. In fact, much of what your spouse does seems self-destructive. That is because it is self-destructive, and if you are not careful your spouse will destroy you, too.

What can you do when you discover that your spouse is engaged in a romantic affair? Well, according to Pittman:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

Glass offers no solution to the WS who refuses to stop the affair.

Only Dr. Harley offers a plan for dealing with a spouse who is unwilling to stop the affair (see Plan A and Plan B on the MB website). But even Dr. Harley acknowledges that affairs of this nature are extremely difficult to break. They are often characterized as addictions, because they share many of the self-destructive traits that are visible among alcoholics and drug addicts. Most affairs will have to “burn out,” that is, they run their course until the romance fades and reality intrudes to destroy the fantasy. Unfortunately, this very often doesn’t happen until a lengthy separation between husband and wife occurs, or in some cases, after a divorce.

Here are some things to consider:

1. The affair is not your fault. No matter what the state of the marriage prior to the affair, no one forces the WS to have the affair, and having the affair is clearly not a solution to marital problems. (Click this link: It's Not Your Fault)

2. It is a myth that affairs don’t occur in good marriages. People in good marriages DO have affairs. Dr. Pittman says the following:

"Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones."

You probably know someone who loves their wife or husband and claims to have a good marriage, but still can’t turn down an opportunity for a sexual encounter with someone else. This is especially true of philandering men. There are other reasons why people engage in affairs that have nothing to do with the marriage itself; self-esteem issues, depression, sexual addictions, etc.

3. Don’t take the affair personally. This is not a rejection of you; this is simply a bad choice by your partner who most likely tried to hide the affair from you because they didn’t want to lose you.

4. The OP is not necessarily more attractive or sexier than the betrayed spouse (BS). Most of the time the affair partner is no better in bed than the BS, it’s just that the intense emotional involvement makes it seem so, especially for women. Also, the OP is often chosen more for his/her incompatibility with the WS than for any similarities; the greater the differences, the more intense the relationship.

5. Not all affairs result in divorce. Most statistics indicate that, of couples who seek counseling for having marital problems due to an affair, between 80 and 85% reconcile. In Pittman’s experience, most of the couples who divorced after an affair did so because of the steadfast refusal of the WS to stop the affair.

6. Nearly all affairs end, usually within two years or less. Even when the affairees marry each other, only 25% of them are still together after 5 years. Pittman found that five years after the revelation of an affair, most WSs were back with their marriage partner.

7. In romantic affairs, it is usually a waste of time to try to talk the WS into stopping the affair, working on the marriage, or getting counseling. But it won’t hurt to try once or twice when you first uncover the affair. Don’t expect the WS be sensible or practical.

8. Although it goes against Dr. Harley’s advice, it may be a bad idea to assume responsibility for marital problems at the time of discovery of a romantic affair. That’s because the WS is looking for justification for the affair and by assuming responsibility for any marital problems, real or imagined, you are inadvertently giving your spouse an excuse for his/her actions. No attempt to solve marital problems will work while the affair continues. Stop the affair first, then talk about marital problems and their solution.

9. Don’t beg for a second chance or promise to change in an attempt to persuade your WS to stop the affair or prevent separation or divorce. This doesn’t work. Don’t allow what love your WS has for you to be turned into pity. Keep a bold front, even if it is only a façade and you are crumbling inside.

10. It is the WS who most often files for divorce. Interestingly, Dr. Pittman says there is almost always a point when the WS makes an attempt to return to the BS, even after the divorce occurs, (although you may not recognize the attempt for what it is, and it may come as a result of the WS’s desire to assure themselves of your continued love).

11. Don’t be surprised if your WS claims all sorts of marital problems that you had no idea existed. The creation and/or gross exaggeration of marital problems is part of the process of transferring guilt of the affair to you or the marriage. It is an attempt by the WS to rationalize what cannot be excused. Does the WS believe what he/she says about the marriage? The power of self-deception is often proportional to the guilt one would be forced to endure without it; WSs often believe their own lies and some never come to grips with the truth.

12. If your WS has had multiple romantic affairs, it may be that they are in love with the idea of being in love. These people are very often not suitable for marriage and will bounce from relationship to relationship until their dying day. You may want to bail out of this marriage or be prepared to spend a lot of money on a psychiatrist.

13. Although you may be desirous of saving your marriage, it is best to prepare for the worst. Seek legal advice about your possible divorce and custody issues. Do whatever is necessary to prevent the WS from destroying your financial resources along with your marriage.

For those of you looking for quick and easy solutions, there are none. Dr. Harley recommends exposure (telling any friends, family, or co-workers who might be able to influence the WS to stop the affair) as a method of accelerating the demise of an affair, but generally speaking, there are three possible outcomes even if you follow Dr. Harley’s Plan A/B:

A. The affair continues, a divorce ensues, and the affairees live together happily ever after. (This is very rare.)

B. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, but either the WS or BS or both refuse to reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be directly proportional to the length of the affair.)

C. The affair continues for a time after discovery, the affairees eventually break up, the WS and BS reconcile. (The probability of this occurring seems to be inversely proportional to the length of the affair.)

I hope this helps some of you who arrive daily on this forum. There are a lot of good folks here offering fine advice coming from first-hand experience.

Remember that you are not alone.

Wow.....great read.....AND I agree with it all. This is exactly what happened with me and my EX.

After 4yrs of waiting on her married EX b/f......my kids said she took her house keys and garage door opener from him and said its over.

I firmly believe she will keep seeing him.

Good stuff, Hiker.

....and a resounding endorsement of Pittman's book.

Thanks, WAT. I'm obviously a big fan of Pittman.

Hiker, how very nice of you to write all of this down for those suffering from A s.

I will bump this up.


Sincerely, Carnation

This is a great post - thanks, Hiker.

I am also a great fan of Pittman - dare I say I read him even more than Harley during my darkest days? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I found it such a relief that I didn't have to bear responsibility for my WXH's affair - because Pittman says that romantic affairs happen in good marriages as well as bad. And ours was a good marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Interesting that the delusion and deflected blame the WS feels is proportional to the guilt they refuse to acknowledge. In my WXH's case, alas, I fear he will never 'see the light'. The OW is also totally in control of the relationship, and what she says goes. Basically, the A will last as long as she wants it to.

The A has been going on since December '04. If it aint over by Christmas, I think it's a lifer.

Alph.

Indeed it is interesting. And suppressed guilt causes its own problems.

when my H and i "fell in love" WE were exactly what is described as "romantic love"

i was the exact opposite of what my H had been brought up to believe was the "right kind of girl" from the "right kind of family"

he went against everyone's advice and we became so very closely bonded because it was "us against them"

he viewed our relationship as something risky, exciting....and i guess it was addictive....during the 4 years we dated and were engaged, his friends and family came to accept me and our relationship grew into a mature love.....and for 12 years we were happily married...then he went looking for romantic love again

he found it with OW....for 3 years now they have been involved off and on

the A IS everything all the books say about a romantic affair

and just like he made the commitment to me and to our relationship....it seems that he is in this for the long haul....maybe forever

because really, the excitment might always be there for my H

OWH lives with her mother and thier 4 children......so he is always a "threat" to my H

OW mother doesn't accept my H and he can't go to her house when OW goes to see her children........so she's often alone there with her H

more excitement....and the constant challenge to "keep her"

OW also gave up everything to be with my H....moved out of HER mothers house and even left her 4 children behind....ages 6, 9, 15 and 16!

so she is also chasing her "romantic love partner"

my H family does now think that i didn't make him happy and OW must be the "right" woman for him........they have ended all contact with me since even before he left (except when i called them because i was worried about my H safety)

they were MY family for 16 years and now they have erased me as completely as my H did...that hurts so much

i used to tell my friends and family that i was so lucky because my H loved me like crazy.....

and now....he hates me just as much as he used to love me

he has given up everything...walked away from every material possession he had and from his 2 dogs that were like children to us

he strung me along after he left....but would never make any effort to reconcile because he was waiting for OW

and after she moved in with him......that was it....no more cake eating/fence sitting

it seems as long as she wants to be with him....he's not going anywhere.....and their life together will continue to give them both the "thrills" they need because of the connection to her H, children, and her mother

i too have read Pitman over and over.....and it doesn't make me feel confident that my H will be returning

lately i have come to believe that i AM going to have to find some way to stop loving him because i'm losing hope that he's coming back

i tried everything......and like Pittman says....i've just been a "pesky noise" bothering my H

nothing i have said or done has made any difference

at least i know from my reading that this is the horror of a romantic affair....

i do though believe that my situation is EXTREME and my H's addiction is very, very powerful...made worse because the "thrills" seem to be never ending

if, like Pittman says, one day almost all WS try to come back.....i'm expecting it will be only if the OW leaves my H

and then....why would i want to live my life being his "back up" or "second choice" always feeling like i'm not the one he really wants to be with....always waiting and always afraid OW would change her mind and he would go running?

THIS is not the life i want...but THAT isn't the life i want either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

my H says he feels guilt and shame and that he knows he "ruined our marraige"

so he says that he can't be with me because he can "see in my eyes the hurt he has put me through" so he might as well start over with OW who he says is "just the same as he is"

so then why does he still HATE me and say that he can never forgive me for not being there for him when i was depressed?

he's blaming ME for "making him do this"...that's why

so yes...he feels guilt and shame but it seems that he beleives that I MADE HIM DO WHAT HE DID and so i also made him hate himself


this romantic affair wonn't ever make sense and Pittman is right...the most miserable people on the earth are the BS who's H fell in love with someone else and erased them....

eav, you are becoming quite the guru on these boards! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I feel you and I have always much in common in our sitches.

Except this:


The Omelette gave up nothing at all to be with WXH. She is unmarried, and although her family is strict Catholic, they accepted the affair and WXH's divorce without batting an eyelid apparently!


No cake eating from my WXH at any time. He dropped me like the proverbial hot potato, moved in with OW, and never showed the slightest hint of regret or conflict. We have been NC for over a year now. He has never tried to contact me.


I think the 'thrills' are over for WXH and OW. They have no money, they live in a mouldy little flat (I know because the children smell of mildew when they come back from there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) and, most importantly, the 'us against the world' phase is coming to an end. Once the finances are settled, they won't even have me and the kids as an obstacle to their happiness, and no-one else has caused any problems for them - not Omelette's parents, not WXH's parents, not even the kids.


Same here. She gave up nothing to be with him - it will be much easier for her to end the relationship. I still don't think he'll try to come back, though - even if the A ends.

I will never accept being his second choice. And he knows it.

Alph.

eav,

If your husband left you to seek the thrill of a new romance, what makes you think he won't eventually do the same to the OW?

Maybe he is one of Pittman's "people who are addicted to romance."

There are very definitely people out there who are unsuitable for marriage. Commitment means nothing to them; just words you say at your wedding.


It doesn't have to be this way. Ask WAT. His story is the about as tragic as can be found here -- much more than just a backstabbing, cheating spouse -- and since then he has found the love of his life.

eav,

If he doesn't blame you or the marriage, then who would be the one to blame? Obviously it would be himself, and he can't live with that. He'll accept PARTIAL blame, but accepting full responsibility for destroying the marriage is too much for him to bear.

That leaves you as a target.

Alph,

We once had a discussion on this forum about WSs that would stay with the OP even after it became obvious things weren't working out like they planned -- the motivation coming from an inability to admit their mistake or face the shame of their actions once the "fog" lifted.

There is also the fear that the BS will forever hold the affair against them should they return.

Yup. I'm certain that WXH is beginning to feel that he's made this bed and now must lie in it. I don't think for a minute that the OW will make him happy long-term. More importantly, I don't think that WXH can make her happy long-term - he isn't strong enough for her. At the moment, I guess she enjoys being in control of the relationship, but her father is a strong man (he was a captain in the Spanish army) and eventually I think OW will lose all respect for WXH.

I know I have! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

there are so many moments since beginning plan B that i have wanted to send and e-mail to say "i love you." I have forgiven you and i am ready to leave the past in the past" "I am here for you if you decide that you want to work together to build a marraige that meets both our needs were we can both be happy."

but i've tried it so many times already and it was a waste of effort.....he just didn't care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think my WH would definitely fall into the "romantic
affair" category as well. I don't know that/if WH feels
he is "in love" with OW or not, but she definitely feels
she is "in love" with him, and that's been her "excuse"
for the affair.
When I last saw her, back in December, she told me "she
was sorry, but she L-O-V-E-D WH", like that was supposed
to make it okay to continue an affair, even after she found
out he had lied, was still married, and no D in the works !
Yeah, well I love MY HUSBAND too, OW.

I think she also pulls the "love card" on WH alot.
When I overheard a phone conversatio between them back in
Feb. (when they renewed contact after our brief "recovery")
I heard her say "If you love me and want to marry me you'll
do such and such"....

Obviously there must be something that keeps them together,
even after several "break ups", frequent fighting, and major
paranoid on OW's part. I haven't been able to figure out
what the attraction is, and would think the "fantasy bubble"
would have burst long ago. Don't know if what's left is them
trying to recreate the original "thrill" of it, some kind
of sex addiction, WH's feeling a "challenge" due to OW's
games and ultimatums, or OW feeling a competition with me
to "win" WH.
I think there is merit too, in the WS feeling that they
will never be able to forgive themselves or "live down" the
A, making it seem easier to them to just give up and stick
with the A, even when it has lots of problems.
Could also be a matter of pride, because they don't want to
admit they were "wrong" or go "begging back" to the BS.

I too have tried to make sure WH knew I was willing to make
changes myself, forgive, work on a new M that would make us
BOTH happy, not just blame him or expect him to make all the
changes. However, until they are out of the fog and able to
think clearly , seems like nothing we say or do gets through
or makes a difference.

Slammed

Eav,


You're right. It is a wasted effort. Remember that Dr. Harley says that having an affair is one of the most selfish things a person can do. Your feelings are pretty low on his list of priorities. That hurts.

Although it is difficult to see now, your future is brighter.

Let's suppose you get divorced.

Between you and your WS, who do you think stands a better chance of having a great marriage in the future? The person who lied and cheated their way into a divorce? Or the person who struggled mightily to save the marriage despite having suffered (at the hands of their spouse) what may be the greatest emotional pain one human being can inflict upon another?

Slammed,


That's it. That's why Pittman recommends that you, "Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time."

Does this mean that true, full-on addictive romantic affairs are pretty unlikely to be affected by the whole Plan A/ Plan B thing?

When I plan A'd my ex, he seemed happy because he thought we were going to be 'friends', and that I was getting over him leaving me (I wasn't). It didn't make him want to come home at all.

When I went NC (I didn't do an official plan B - no letter) he didn't try to contact me, and never asked or spoke about me to anyone. Like eav said - he just didn't care!

It was like I had ceased to exist.

I knew a long time ago that this wasn't going to change. Even if the affair ended, I knew he wasn't going to love me again. So I divorced him.

Alph.

I think the most effective way to break-up a romantic affair is

E X P O S U R E

and all at once

make the 'cost' of the romance very very VERY v e r y $$$$

discomfort makes romance lessen

secrecy makes romance increase

Pep

Exposure is good, but still, I think, much less likely to affect romantic affairs.

I keep thinking about the 'Sue and Jon' case study in SAA. This affair just ran its course - Jon didn't expose it, he didn't make any of that 'unpleasant noise' that Pittman talks about. He just waited it out.

If affairs are an addiction, then romantic affairs are the class-A heroin/crack variety. Would a crack addict care if everyone knew about his addiction, as long as he could still have a regular supply of the drug?

Alph.

Alph,

Plan A/B is a very sensible approach to a difficult problem. But with Plan A/B there is an underlying assumption that something is wrong with the marriage, such as a failure to meet emotional needs, an excess of LBs or DJs, etc. In a good plan A you do your best to remove those issues to show your spouse how great your marriage can be. But what if that isn't really the problem?

There are plenty of husbands and wives who don't meet all of each other's emotional needs (I would even venture to guess that most do not). And every marriage has lovebusters and disrespectful judgments; some more than others. Are all marriages plagued by infidelity? Of course not.

While most affairs may fall into the category of "conditions created by the failure to meet emotional needs," there are other things at work here. Some are complex personality issues within the WS. They could be related to self-esteem, depression, sexual addiction, or other psychological disorders that are unaffected by Plan A/B.

The failure to save a marriage torn asunder by infidelity may have an even simpler explanation. What about people who don't really know what love is? People who mistake infatuation or, as Pittman calls it, the "in love" state for real love. It fades, and suddenly these people feel as though they no longer love the person that they declared as a soulmate just weeks before. How would Plan A/B help them? It wouldn't.

Don't get me wrong. Plan A/B is the only credible way I've heard of to save a marriage broken by adultery. And it probably works most of the time. But even though most affairs share the same characteristics when viewed from outside, the causes may be far more complex than we suspect.

exposure did nothing in my case....then again....everyone BUT me knew that my H and OW were living together so when i found out and "exposed" everyone knew more about the situation than I did and ended up exposing information TO ME!

yeah...that made me feel really stupid, pathetic, sad and desperate

and it got me no-where except that it made EVERYONE ELSE agree with my H-that i was just making alot of noise and bothering them

i also don't think exposure makes a big difference in a true romantic affair especially if it involves TWO romantics as in my situation....they are already willing to give everything and everyone up to be together....and in fact the more sacrifices each person makes, the more they prove thier love to OP! AND exposure should turn others against the affair partners BUT that leaves them turning to each other to find "the ONE person who still loves me" so it brings them closer together

after some time, i wonder how much keeping the affair a secret really matters to partners in a romantic affair? MAYBE if you expose when it is still very new....before they become addicted to each other

but hey! how many of us know about the A before then? usually it seems the affair becomes known because of the increased need to be together that is caused because they are already addicted to each other...or the "high" they get from being together

If i had to choose which is more destructive...a spouse who is addicted to drugs, alcohol or OP......it would be a tough choic to make

but if i had to pick which one makes that person's spouse feel the most hurt....feel the most rejected....it would be an easy choice for ME

Exactly. My WXH and the OW did their own exposure, in fact! They were only too happy to introduce each other as 'my new partner' one week after WXH had left!

The only exposure that caused them discomfort was when I told their school about the A. Shook them up a abit, but in the end it was only 'annoying noise' - and made WXH hate me. The school did nothing about it anyway. So much for their Christian ethos. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

eav and Alph,

I think you are right; there are definitely cases where exposure can actually drive the affairees closer together. Romantics feed on making sacrifices in the name of love.

I completley agree in that Romantic Affairs are the Class A heroin addict affair. Nothing short of time and reality (if that) stand a chance of breaking them. My EX WW is in this type of affair with a man 23 years older than she with a past that would make him the Charels Manson of affair partners, does she care? Does she care that her attorney told her that if she didn't distance herself from this man that she would lose custody of her son (18 mos) to me and did it matter? Does it matter today that she has indeed lost custody of our 18 mo old son? Does it matter that she intuitively knows this is a bad idea and that exposing our daughter (step daughter but mine since 13 mos old) to this lunatic and his past, knack for drama, and potentail bad ways will hurt her?

Does any of this matter? All together now.....Noooooooooo!

Therefore, I can only surmise that when you are dealing with one of these type affairs the best thing to do is protect you and your children and get out of the way of the train wreck. Exposure only served in my case to provide "us against the world" fodor for them. At the end of this both of them will have lost everything. She a wonderful loving husband and father, a 18 mo son, the respect and love of our daughter eventually, and a stable and protective home environment. He will be broke at 58 years of age (having already filed bankruptcy just last year). He will be working 80 hours per week to bring home after taxes, alimony, legal bills, lawsuit to come, etc the salary of your average working professional man even though he makes 10 times that. gross.

Do either of them care? I think not. As a matter of fact I fully expect them to be married within a 9 mos. time (he will not be divorced for another 4-6 months probably).

My prayer for them both is that they get everything each of them has to offer! This will be punishment enough.

Among romantic-type affairs, what we are really seeking here is the answer to what separates those that end with the WS seeking reconciliation from those that continue indefinitely and result in divorce.

I started another thread based on your thread here asking that of FWS. What caused them to see the romantic affair for what it was and end it regardless of reconciliation or divorce. I know beyond a shadow of doubt this is the type of A that my Ex WW is in right now.

Yes, please clue me in!

There are many issues that can affect the strength of the relationship between the WS and the OP.

I'm no expert by any means, but let me take a stab at one of these: Self-esteem.

Let's suppose you are a person with poor self-esteem for whatever reason (e.g., it might stem from childhood issues). Once you are secure in the love of your spouse you may now be open to the idea of an affair. Why? Because the value of your spouse's love has been diminished by your opinion of yourself, i.e., "If you know the real me and love me, there must be something wrong with you, because I am not worthy of being loved."

Enter a stranger. The stranger's interest in you is stimulating. He doesn't really know the real you but he likes you. You can play a role that is totally different than what you are for your spouse. The OP likes you in that role, and you like the way you feel when you're with the OP. You are feeling loved and you are allowed to be someone different in the OP's presence. You feel accepted and valued.

In short, you are engaged in a fantasy that allows you to be someone else because you aren't particularly happy with the real you and the life you were leading as a partner to your spouse. This is what Dr. Shirley Glass means when she says that WSs fall in love with "the reflection of themselves in their lover's eyes."

This involves powerful emotions, because everyone has a deep-seated need to love himself. It is paramount to one's happiness.

So what causes an affair like this to end? It only ends when the role playing breaks down to the point that the real personalities emerge and the affair partners don't like what they discover about each other.

The affair ends, but the problem of poor self-esteem has not been solved and will likely result in other affairs.

i'm bumping this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My WXH suffers from poor self-esteem. Which is ironic because he is also one of the most entitled people I know (even pre-affair).

I have no doubt that the A is deeply rooted in his own inadequacy. OW (who is a very strong and domineering person) flattered and encouraged him. They are both teahcers, and she must have made him feel great professionally (something I couldn't do).

Once the role-playing ends, I wonder if the affair will, though. WXH is a major CA, and will stick with the A if it kills him to save face and prove that what he did 'right'.

I honestly can't see the A ending. I think that the % of romantic affairs that 'make it' is much higher than the books claim.

The 3% figure is much too low, IMO, and doesn't seem to be borne out in reality. There are so many affair-marriages that I know of that just continue for years, and seem happy, too.

Alph.

Read ANNA KARENINA by LEO TOLSTOY for the best documentation of how a romantic affair gradually becomes unravelled and ends tragically. In an ordinary marriage- if any thing can go wrong it will go wrong-- but in an affair marriage those factors are increased exponentially there is so much more to go wrong.

[b]Imagine having to prop-up another adult's self-esteem for 10,15,20 years !!!

How tiring ... and this requires self-sacrificing ~~~> which leads to resentment ~~~> which leads to more entitlement

nothing quite so unattractive as a weak needy spouse who cannot support YOU when you need it because THEY are always sucking-up all the "feed-me" energy out of the relationship !!!!!!

D O O M E D

it might not end

but it might be a life sentence of cyclic parent-child conflict

yukkkkkkkkkk

if Spanish-Fly gets preggers .... Baby-man has been replaced ... and he will get his suckling ~elsewhere~

it's a set-up for him to cheat on her in the future when she cannot "mommie" him as much as he requires

Pep

It was recently pointed out to me by a human behavior major that this would not be inconsistent or unusual among persons of low self-esteem. They may exhibit great talent or outstanding academic or professional achievements simply because they work hard at trying to "prove" themselves worthy. But as you can imagine, any good feelings about themselves stemming from these kinds of achievements are fleeting, because they are generated externally.

It's like the proverbial actor who only has positive feelings of self-worth when he is on the stage performing and receiving the accolades of the audience.

i wish this and the other thread could be combined since they are about the same thing!

bump....

I am finding RA's to be very distructive to the children and I just can't believe my WW said the kids will be alrigh through this, theyc are scared of her right now, she yells and she is starting to get verbally abusive to them.

I am going to my lawyer today to find out what more I can do

Vikingruler,

Concentrate on being the best parent you can be. It's up to you now to make sure your children get through the emotional turmoil that will result from your deteriorating relationship with your WW.

Can't agree more and that is what I am doing.

I had to have my lawyer call her lawyer today to have them put pressure on WW to

1) stop yelling at the kids
2) stop threatening the kids with not seeing me so they behave
3) stop telling the kids that I am bad and the one to blame.

She leaves Thursday night to be with OM in baltimore. So I get the kids 4 nights Thurs - Sun.... How stupid can she be if I am fighting for custody and she is willing to give the kids upto me over and over so she can go be with him.

I have exposed again to OM side and she sent something to her lawyer which was forwarded onto me. So I think she thinks I am scared, ha saw her the next day and I was all smiles.

She is broke, a conflict avoider and has no plans for the future except a job at target and trips to see him.

I need to stop being mean to her, I just need to let things play out as plan a worked with OM1 but OM2 is a RA and that there is no plan for

The day after D/day, my XWH told our twelve year old daughter that he was leaving and moving in with his girlfriend. Prior to that moment, she was 100% certain that her parents were happy, and would never separate. He packed his bags and left. Our daughters screamed and clung to me. It was the end of their world.

One week later, he was pressuring me to make the children meet OW. I refused.

DD12 (now 13) suffered nightmares, severe depression, and thoughts of suicide. She lost interest in everything she had previously cared about. DD5 (now 6) suffered night terrors for weeks, bedwetting and was terrified to let me out of her sight.

I can never forgive the damage WXH and OW have done to our children. They don't even think they have caused any damage, because neither of them were here in this house to witness it.

Alph.

I can never forgive the damage WXH and OW have done to our children. They don't even think they have caused any damage, because neither of them were here in this house to witness it.



A freakin men..... They are such A holes that they can't see the hurt that their selfish, immoral and entitled behavior has done to their own flesh and blood and they don't care.

Not men, but the wayward. Women in romantic affairs are just as selfish, just as entitled.

{{{H&P}}}

Alph.

I don't think I've posted on this one but I did post on the other thread about romantic A's.

I am proof positive that even the most foggy, hopeless case that's been seen around here (me) can finally come to their senses.

As I said on the other thread, I had the double whammy of being involved with an old flame and also being extremely emotionally involved.

To tell you the honest truth the only real and true romance in my life has been the 32 year romance with my H.

BTW someone mentioned Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary falls into the same category. They are both novels about society and culture at the time of the writer's writing rather than being about A's.

KiwiJ,

Your experience is certainly an inspiration for those who still have a hope of reconciliation. Unfortunately, not all WSs make the tough choices that you made to return to your spouse.

There are some wayward spouses that are well aware of the wrong they are commiting and yet they won't stop the affair.

We consider alcoholism and drug addiction diseases that can destroy families, but for those betrayed spouses struggling to save their marriage, the addictive relationship of the WS to the OP may hold even greater emotional pain.

"How stupid can she be"

You don't really need an answer to this do you? I didn't think so. Use her stupidity against her. Let her hang herself when it comes to the children. She is like a crack addict looking for the next hit (in Baltimore). There is nothing going to get in her way or stop her much less the one sane individual she still knows, you. You represent the real world to her why would she want any part of that when fantasy land is so great. You do what's right by the children and let her crash and burn in time.

I wanted to post my update her so it bumps this because I would like to hear more about other's dealing with RA's, as I think these are the most damaging and treachorous type'

I had the girls tonight and I noticed that my 11 yr old had rings around her eyes like a 40 year old smoker, I asked her if she was sleeping okay and she almost broke down right there. she said no. I asked if she was having nightmares and she said yes, I ask were they about mom and dad, she said duh stupid.... Wife doesn't want to recognize the impact on the kids that all this has. She leaves again this weekend for extended weekend with OM. She has no regard for anyone but herself.

Bill

Vikingruler,


As bad as this is, there is nothing unusual about this kind of behavior from someone in a romantic affair.

If you spend much time reading other tales of infidelity on this forum you'll see much of the same thing over and over. One of the problems is that betrayed spouses have a tendency to think of their wayward spouse's behavior in terms of what he/she was like before the affair. The wayward spouse's entire list of priorities has changed now and you can be sure you, as a BS, aren't anywhere near the top. The kids are still on that list but they've dropped a few spots too.

It's this radical change of behavior that folks here call the "fog" or an "alien abduction." It also manifests itself in "fogspeak," the nonsense that comes out of their mouth as they try to justify their actions.

The anger she exhibits might be from the frustration at not being able to do what she wants whenever she wants, and she probably blames you and the kids for that. Or she might be angry as a response to the guilt she encounters whenever she is around the kids.

Dr. Harley says wayward spouses may also suffer bouts of depression because of the conflicts created within themselves by their involvement in the affair.

You are surprised, as almost all betrayed spouses are, at the dramatic change in your wife's behavior. First you get the shock of finding out about the affair. Then you find out she "doesn't love you anymore." You are stunned because this person, who has promised to stand by you no matter what, who is supposed to be your closest friend and confidante, and who should be the one person in all the world that you can trust, has lied, cheated, and deceived you in the worst possible way. And if that isn't enough, she is willing to risk emotional trauma to her own children just to pursue the affair.

Once you accept the fact that she is no longer rational, your expectations of her behavior will change and you will cease being surprised at anything she does.

oh I have got past the realization of she is flippin out of her head, its the fact that she so carelessly impacts the kids is what gets me.

Well I am starting custody next week after she gets back from her 5 4 day visit with OM since July 3.

Lets see how conflicted she feels then, Yes I have documented it all

It is rather difficult to comprehend how a mother can knowingly engage in behavior harmful to her children's welfare.

One poster recently e-mailed me saying it was his opinion based on the observation of numerous affairs that a marriage involving a mother of young children engaged in an affair was extremely unlikely to recover. It was his feeling that any woman who could do such a thing was too far gone to ever see the error of her ways.

Let me bump this for my friend from NY.

Sorry you had to join this club!

i would second the motion that ANY FATHER who says he loves his child but then continues on his cheating adulterous ways is also too stupid to even see the light.

And too selfish.

anyone who believes their WS is involved in a romatic affair would benefit from reading Pitman's book "private lies" because it really gives info to help build understanding of this type of affair

I agree. His book helped me understand this type of affair more than any other - and when WXH first left I was reading alot!

Pittman has a great sense of humour, too.

Alph.

Bumped by request for the benefit of Paranoid.

Just got a chance to read through this thread (Thanks Hiker for bumping it up!)

Well...a lot of what was said resonates with me...

I believe my WS is involved in a RA...and must admit that I am of the opinion that they are the type closest to a typical 'addiction' where WS is prepared to do ANYTHING to get the fix of the OW...hurt ANYBODY that gets in his way (like his family, but then deny it to alleviate guilt) ...AVOID anybody that will judge him negatively about it....and associate only with those that 'sympathize' with him and OW....

So..I do agree...that exposure in these cases may actually 'fuel' the affair...

In my case...WS at one point actually compared himself and OW as 'Romeo and Juliette'.... 'them' against 'society' with values that were meant to keep them apart, such as a 'silly' commitment of having to be faithful when married....

...I was too much in shock at the time....on thinking it over...I should have asked when were they planning to kill themselves!

WS also actually 'convinced' himself with a LOT of rewriting history.... that our home and family was a 'prison'..... and I am, thinking, like....but you CHOSE to marry me....you CHOSE to have children..... you CHOSE to have a family.... what's up?....I know...fogtalk.... that's why BS's get into a lot of trouble trying to make 'sense' of fogtalk.....I did eventually chose to stop making any sense out of something that didn't!

I do believe also that in a RA, leaving his family for WS was proof to the OW of how much he loved her.....see???? am even willing to destroy MY family for your love..yuck yuck yuck....

...but in my case, WS is also choosing NOT to live with OW....I do believe from what he told me that it is part of his plan to keep the 'romantic' and 'exciting' side going...(but I also believe it is to keep him in 'control'...as I do believe OW would really like to 'share her life totally with him').... I wonder if WS is 'stringing her along' promising to live with her one day.... maybe after our boys are grown enough?...I don't know.....

I do know that one of the objectives of WS is to somehow figure out ways to NOT let THIS love affair be lost to the 'daily' routine (read: reality)....as was our M.....

All I can say is that between D-day and the day WS decided to move....about six months.....it was pure ****** for me emotionally and psychologically....

...the only option to 'protect' myself from further being hurt was PLAN B.....

I had never been confronted before in my personal life with such high level of selfish acts.... I now have that claim to fame!

I also think that now I better understand maybe why an abused spouse allows the abuse to continue.....as so often is the case.... besides the fact that they hope the other will eventually 'change' and want so badly to believe in the promises...for fear the 'unknown'...for fear of being 'alone'...

...it is because the abused spouse may actually 'buy' into the abuser's theory that it is 'their fault' that they are being abused! ... if only they would have managed to be perfect....and not have set them off!

...now...in my case....while I was in shock.... I did think it was my fault for a while, and what did I need TO DO or NOT do to make WS change his mind...but ....I guess 'something' in me eventually saw the light.... understood that it had nothing to do with me.... and the best I could do is to 'remove' myself from a very toxic relationship with WS....until at least the minimum PLAN B condition was met: no contact with OW.....

and that's where I am at... over one year in PLAN B....
Sure, PLAN B is not EASY....but when you care enough about yourself and know that contact with WS is 'harmful' to you well-being...and that contact means abuse.... it becomes very very EASY...

The problem for BS's arises when the whole Affair experience destroys one's self-esteem and worth.... and it then becomes a vicious circle.....and the BS can actually become an 'enabler' of the abuse and of the A.....

I have chosen PLAN B.....and let 'reality' take care of A......

Sorry for being so long-winded...need to go..and don't have a lot of time to edit...

But...yes....I would agree that very little can be done in the case of a RA....the best medicine.....is allowing 'reality' to deal with it...let it run its course.....because it is the type that has the highest level of 'fantasy' going and therefore it might be the hardest hit by it...

There are a lot of people out there who know this feeling first hand, including me.


Another thing we share.

One of the reasons the BS keeps trying to save the relationship is what I call the slot machine effect. You plug away putting coins in the slot machine and every once in a while it kicks out a few dollars to keep you interested; just the same way your WS may show brief signs of coming out of the fog, making you feel as if, "hey, maybe he/she is finally seeing the light." But just as the machine keeps taking your money without giving up the jackpot, your spouse lapses right back into the fog as you continue to make your emotional investment in trying to save your marriage, getting little or nothing in return.

Eventually, of course, most BS's will tire of this and walk away, having decided that it is a lost cause.

I wish you the best, Luna. I know and understand your pain.

Very true.

I'm positive that my WW is in an RA. I don't know if the OM is as entrenched as she is, but WW went from wanting to have a baby with me (we discussed fertility meds on D-Day) to fuming and wanting a divorce less than two weeks afte D-Day when I moved back into my house and told her I was not going to give up on my marriage.

This describes my WW to a T:

********* My WXH suffers from poor self-esteem. Which is ironic because he is also one of the most entitled people I know (even pre-affair).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was recently pointed out to me by a human behavior major that this would not be inconsistent or unusual among persons of low self-esteem. They may exhibit great talent or outstanding academic or professional achievements simply because they work hard at trying to "prove" themselves worthy. But as you can imagine, any good feelings about themselves stemming from these kinds of achievements are fleeting, because they are generated externally.*************


The RA has no gone on for two years. We didn't have a bad marriage at all, and I really belive that it is her low self esteem and her seeing the reflection of what she wants to be in his eyes that resulted in the RA.

I know that WW is going to say and do some awful things to me in the coming months, but by finding this site I am prepared for such and just have to keep reminding myself to take this time to do things that I like to do and accept the fact that she will not be rational.

Know that you have company Scotty. My EXWW to the letter!

Scotty:

Steve Harley once told me that some waywards change so radically once they are embroiled in a romantic affair that you might easily find yourself wondering if they are schizophrenic.


And every once in a while you will be tempted to try to reason with her, because the right thing to do seems so obvious to you. Unfortunately, the emotional grip of the affair prevents her from giving any consideration to anything that leads her away from the OP.

I found this all extremely interesting. For myself, if I hadn't found this website I would be questioning my sanity.

WH is so deeply engulfed in this RA that he sees nothing wrong with cutting me off. From the letters I found, WH and OW are in a RA. Nothing matter except for him and OW. I wasn't able to talk any sense into him and he rushed into filing for D once I exposed the A. It's really too bad because we built a strong foundation (or so I thought) on good values and morals. It was a 180 degree change in his personality and lifestyle. It was unreal and unfortunate.

Hiker, thanks for this information. I think this is the kind of affair my wife is having. Everything you have written pretty much sums up her attitude. I can't reason with her at all.

Maybe I should just follow Dr. Pittman's advice and go find a quiet corner until she recovers her sanity.

mickey

my h is also involved in a romantic affair

he gave up a beautiful home with an inground pool and new furniture, a brand new truck and a corvette, both of our dogs that we considered children....because we didn't want children of our own.....my H doesn't like children...in fact, he always believed that no man really wants kids...they just learn how to put up with them...not exactly good father material

he now lives in a HUD house with the married OW who has 4 children ages 6, 9, 15 and 16....one or more may be living with them

he had to trade in his new truck for an older one so he could afford to make payment on her van

when we still had contact, he complained constantly about not being able to pay his bils anad said that bill collectors are caling his home....and said it was all my fault

maybe his wh*re should get herslf a job? but hey! that's one of the reasons why he was "soooo unhappy with me" cause i worked and therefore wasn't home to follow him around all day and give him undivided attention

so now he works out of the home (he never offerred to do that so we could move near our family) and she gives him attention all day long

the constant drama fueled their affair....her H beat the crap out of my H and his new truck when he first found they were together and since the OWH lives with HER mother and one or more children....OW is always at the house that her H lives in which adds to the fear she may leave my H...adds to the excitement too i guess

and his family all support him because "all they want is for him to be happy"

like he wasn't ever happy with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

eav1967, I know the feeling. It's been months now and I am still in a kind of shock. I want to keep asking "why?" but I know I'll never get the real answer, just all these excuses that don't make any sense.

I can't get a grip on this because I can't see myself doing what she is doing under any circumstances. Maybe even if I hated her, but the kids? How can she do this to them?

This just seems so crazy. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy -- well, maybe the other man!

Mickey, i am right with you brother. My WW is so in the fog that is not funny, its down right scary. She has been told by several people that she is now anorexic, I was told today by a source that even the OM told her to add 10 lbs, but I don't think she could, the disease is taken ahold. So now I have to wait for her to get sick or move on. Our kids suffer, friends suffer, and I am the stoiac one now waiting for things to take their course. We have a custody trial on November 30, and I am hoping a will get full custody of the kids

vikingruler, I wish you luck getting custody. Dang, if only these courts would look at these crazy waywards and realize that it might be a whole lot better for the kids to stay with the sane parent until the other one comes down off her cloud.

Right now I think my wife would fight for custody just on principle, 'cause she hasn't spent one tenth the time with the kids that I have. She obviously would rather spend it with the jerk.

I'm telling ya Vike, if I thought I could get away with cleaning this guy's plow I would do it, but my lawyer says a police report would be a nail in my coffin as far as custody goes. If my wife divorces me and I do get custody, I may just make a visit to see him anyway. The thing is, it's not just what he's doing to me, it's the hardships he's putting my kids through.

this makes me feel like i'm NOT crazy! he WAS a good man and a great H before this started!

sometimes my WH would say or do things and i would be so shocked that my mouth would literally hang open.....and he woudl say "don't look at me like i'm stupid" or i would laugh, thinking aloud i guess that this must be a joke or some alternate reality and he would yell "don't laugh at me"

my always even tempered H, turned WS, was writing a check and threw the pen across the room cussing and swearing.....i just stood there thinking "WHO IS this person???" and once the dogs got into a fight (no big deal....a dominance thing? and after they calmed down, my monster WS kicked one and then the other across the room!!! he was always the most gentle person i knew!! i lost it myself and started screaming and hitting HIM telling him HE was crazy!!

of course he then told everyone that i was beating him and he wasn't safe in his own home <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


it really IS so confusing and painful...it makes me question my sanity and my recollection of the past...like i was the one living in a dream and this nightmare is reality

eav,

Dr. Harley and Dr. Pittman both say the cheaters go into alternating states of highs and depression during their affairs. They may get short tempered because, after all, things aren't really going their way. Sure they have the OP, but there are a lot of complications that can make headaches for them.

We keep thinking of our spouses the way they were, and that makes it so hard to accept the change. And yes, it is a radical change!

So which personality is the real one? Once the affair dies you'll see the real personality after withdrawal subsides.

The only time I was "happy" was when I was getting my "fix"... the rest of the time I was seriously effed up. I was very depressed (I've NEVER been depressed) and just all around looney.

*shudders*

I saw "WTF? expressions" on the faces of my friends and family when I was in my A. I felt numb/dead w/ everyone except the OM. I guess that's why so many WS say they felt "alive w/ the OP."

It was a horrible nightmare that I was VERY glad to wake up from.

~ Marsh

Thanks for sharing that Marsh.

How do you feel now? Has everything sort of settled out?

Marsh,

Help me here. I am a BH and have divorced my EX WW and was awarded full custody of our 21 month old son. I see your post stating that the only time you felt alive was when you were with the OM. This is just unreal to me. I say this because I have truly loved three women in my life and would have died for each of them had there been that requirement. BUT at no time did I feel so 'lost' mentally or emotionally that I could not survive the day without seeing them. I wanted to see them, I wanted to be with them, I desired them and so on but life was not going to end if I missed seeing them for a period of time.

This generates my question. Do you feel as if there was something from your childhood, upbringing, a mental illness (no matter how slight), emotional instability or something else prevalent that helped you start this affair and to be able to blind yourself to its effects on everyone around you? I notice in most cases the OM/OW is someone who 99.9% (the others are the one's that the Wayward surrounds themselves with or who are cheaters themselves) of rationally thinking people would go "you are kidding me!!" when told of the wayward having an affair with them. In other words more times than not these affair partners can't hold a light to the man or woman the wayward is married to and yet they are the "chosen one". Do you now feel used by the OM for his pleasure and desires. How do you see him now?

Any insight from a FWW like yourself is helpful to us who will never really understand.

For what its worth...my EX WW is in an affair with a man 23 years older than she, filed bankruptcy, has herpes, is clinically OCD, treated for sex addiction, admitted under oath to 15 sexual and 6 long term affairs within two ruined marriages, kids will not talk w/ him, had an affair with a woman just 6 months before his affair with my wife, was having affairs on two mission trips he went on, was having affairs at the birth of all four grandchildren, is a narcissit, pathological liar, UGLY/Disgusting physically, flirted with my attorney's paralegal in COURT, and more

So you see how I and others wonder what attracts a wayward wife or husband to what most times ends up being despicable human beings..

I feel great now that I have my mind back again. I had closed myself off from my BH and wondered why I didn't love him anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Duh?

Once I got through w/drawals, things improved greatly. I'm still working through things in my mind, but I'm headed in the RIGHT direction....towards my DH, not away from him.

I was lucky, I KNEW it was the A that was making me nutz. So many WS's think it's their spouses that are making them miserable. That's why MB principles and plans are so good. If the BS can maintain themselves in a positive way it can clear the fog away enough for the WS to see what is REALLY making them miserable.

~ Marsh

I felt fine before I chose the A. I felt happy, content, alive, normal, ect..before the A.

But, once I was in it, that's when I began to feel numb to everyone around me. Maybe I felt my soul dying and the only thing that masked what was happening were the feelings the A produced.



I HEAR that! That was part of my mental melt down. I couldn't figure out why I felt the way I did. It was CRAZY. And unlike anything I'd ever experienced before. I can see how some WS mistake it for soulmate love crap. Just b/c of the intensity of it. For me, I knew in my mind that it was nutz to feel the way I did towards anyone. Granted, I still liked the feelings, but I constantly challanged myself about them.



I wish I could point to something and say, "There." That was why I did it.

I think it was a number of factors, but mostly wrong thinking. Lies I told myself. Feelings of entitlement. Certain events in my life at the time.

But, I ALWAYS saw the effects my A was having on everyone around me...I just tried to look away.



I sure do.

I think many WS are trying to fix something inside themselves through another person. And if you're trying to do THAT, you aren't going to attract quality people. Especially if you are married and/or have kids. Good people will NOT want to get involved w/ married folks.

~ Marsh

Thank you so much Marsh.. You are a big help to BS's and FWW's alike. Keep posting and God bless you and your M.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thankyou, H&P.

I am blessed by your posts too.

I am so grateful for this place.


~ Marsh

Hi Marsh,

Thank you so much for sharing your story and insight. I have a question, what made you "wake up from your nightmare?" Was it a romantic A?

Good for you for restoring your M. That's wonderful!

I'm just trying to understand the WS perspective.

Blessings to you,

My wife, my love, is definitely in a RA. and is showing the classic signs here as well as not sure of who she is (so she told me).

thanks for your insight marshmallow

my H is getting his fix all of the time now that he is living with OW and they are together 24-7 since he works at home and she doesn't work

the strange looks from everyone are probably gone now....i'm sure they've accepted it by now

it seems that you had some insight into your soul...or the fact that you were losing your soul-that maybe my H is lacking

he still sees me as the problem and believes that he and OW are meant to be since they were both willing to give everything up to be together

one thing i will always believe

my H and I were meant to be together because when we could have choosen anyone...when we were free in god's eyes to choose anyone to be our partner...we chose each other

and we were so proud to be together that we told everyone....there was no shame and no one was destroyed in the processof our finding happiness together

i'm still so very proud of the fact that one day long ago this man chose me to spend his life with

and i'm so saddened by the fact that one day not so long ago he decided that it was all a big mistake

I am in a situation where the OM is in NY and my WW is here NC, she is completely miserable and blames me for all her misery until she can get her fix by flying to NY for a long weekend each month.... she takes 1/2 of her entire monthly savings to fly there - leaving me to pay all her bills and all the kid stuff. I have stacks of evidence and witness testimonals of the RA, but she she continues to try, its all about me (being me) and that I am manipulating and controlling and I aweful, if I am so aweful why is she isolated and alone?

I have support of friends and family, her own best friend is supporting me.

RA's are totally distructive, I am wondering if she would ever recover.... Oh by the way OM still lives with his W and kids, he is supposedly getting a divorce

the worst part of this is that now they have both given everything up and are now living together

i don't think they will give it all up again to try to find their way back home if they ever would realize they made a mistake...and OWH says he wouldn't take her back anyway so she'd have nowhere to go

what's worse? looking like a fool who gave it all up for love or looking like a fool who gave it all up for nothing?

Good point, eav. I am convinced that 99 times out of 100, when the AP's stay together, it's either because they know they have nothing to go back to (ie, the BS has moved on and doesn't want them) or they are afraid to admit what a terrible mistake they made.

That doesn't help you or me, though, does it? I don't think my WXH could ever admit what a total mismatch he and OW are. He's still looking through the roses-coloureds at the moment admittedly, but when reality sets in (if it ever does <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ) then I know he'll keep convincing himself that he did the right thing.

Alph.

Hi R2W,

I woke up, after I established NC.

Before that, there was a great deal of internal thrashing between my intellect and my feelings. They disagreed STRONGLY, and THAT was what was making me completely loonie.

It's weird, b/c one would think my soul/values would have had a say in this battle, but I think I silenced them when I choose to have the A. So, it was left to my intellect to kick some butt.

And, yes, it was a RA! BIG TIME! ACK!

~ Marsh

Hi Eav,


Yuck!!

The fix will fizzle out. Those intense feelings are impossible to maintain as the fantasy morphs into reality.

Your H will NOT fix what ails him THIS way. He's just getting further away from truth. VERY SAD.


Don't be so sure. No one likes home wreckers!



I really believe that A's are soul killers. I REALLY do! I wish I could articulate how terrible it feels...deep deep down...VERY COLD.

The feelings in the A can mask it though.



Lies! They and the choices he makes based on believing those lies will destroy him.



He believes lies. Until he experiences pain from believing them, he'll continue on as he is.

You have truth, that is why you are able to think clearly and reasonably about all this.

I'm so sorry for all you must be suffering.

~ Marsh

Marsh, did it take a Plan B by your spouse to help you break free from the affair?

No, I broke it off a little bit at a time. But, I did it by telling the truth to myself and the OM. It wasn't easy, b/c I didn't realize how many lies I believed. I guess that's what the fog is made of. Lies.

That's one of the reasons both plan A and Plan B make SO much sense. They are both about bringing reality and TRUTH into a WS's world. It needs to be torn down, and shown what it's really made of...lies and fantasy.

~ Marsh

What happens when this occurs but the two have never met. It is a fantasy over the internet. Even though it is over and we have reconciled he still likes to read information that she post on certain websites, is this a fix for him?

Marshmallow:

You are a WONDERFUL BLESSING AND TREASURE to those IN PAIN here.

You speak the TRUTH, Marshmallow. What you are sharing fits EXACTLY with much that I have heard from my FWH and seen and experienced during his BROKENNESS in the early stages of Recovery.

I pray that Eav and others will HEAR and BELIEVE you.

I have a question for you that continues to PUZZLE me about my FWH's experience in his affair. He has been unwilling and/or unable to explain this to me. I'm aware that you may not know the answer to this but I'm wondering what you think. WHAT COULD HAVE MADE HIM SEEM SO AFRAID OF HER..it seemed like a FEAR of displeasing her or making her unhappy...I'm trying to rid myself of seeing that DREADFUL look on his face that I thankfully NEVER see anymore...What am I speaking about? Do you have any idea?

Thankyou Mimi. I'm glad some of what I'm sharing is resonating w/ you.

It was one of the worst things I've gone through. Hugging pure evil. UGH!



I'm not sure, but I'd guess it was the fear of losing what he thought he couldn't live w/o...those feelings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Or maybe he was afraid that if she didn't turn out to be the kind of person who was worth destroying his family for, he'd end up looking like a real Grade I [censored] to the whole world.

Just a theory.
Mulan

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT PLAN B DID FOR MY FWH. He said that he learned that it was "ALL BS" and she was "BSing" him...You can't keep up the FANTASY 24/7.


I find it FASCINATING that your DESCRIPTION of your AFFAIR EXPERIENCE is so much like his.

This is another of the many examples validating the MB approach.

In regards to the FEAR that I was speaking of, he did say that he felt like she "SAVED HIS LIFE" when he was depressed..but I've been thinking while reading here that maybe he became depressed because of being involved with her as much as being depressed beforehand....so maybe he was FEARFUL of FEELING that BAD AGAIN....if he LOST HER...YUCK...

Mulan, you also are onto something.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />..the A*&^Hole PHOBIA..which he was one of those at the time....

Before my A, my dad was dying and I had other things that were making it difficult to maintain my usual happy nature. BUT, I didn't become DEPRESSED and NUTZ until I started the A.

I felt over the top while I was getting my fix, but the rest of the time, I felt absolutely miserable. I can see how WS's would believe the OP was making them happy.

But, really, it's just another lie.

~ Marsh

Hiker,

This is my situation exactly.
The OW is completely different than my BW & myself.
We had nothing in common but SF.

I abandoned EVERYTHING for her- my M, my kids, my family, all my possessions except my clothes, my dog, my church, my friends, etc.

When it lost it'a luster, I stubbornly held on so I wouldn't have to accept responsibility for my actions, & because I was SURE I would never live it down.

But I finally saw the light (after OW threw me out the third time) & asked my BW for another chance.

3 weeks into recovery & it's looking better than it's been for years. I am a very lucky man.

Yes.

"The power of self-deception is often proportional to the guilt one would be forced to endure without it;"

Sorry - just started reading this thread and the above statement about self-deception really jumped out at me.

It helps explain how/why my WXH maintains such in insanely delusional spin on everything!

Really, if I had behaved as he did I bet I'd be really tempted to just pretend it never happened too (or that it all happened very differently)!

And again reconfirms that he will never change.
In fact, the ONLY attempts he made at reconciliation included insistance from him that we reconcile secretly... his family, co-workers, friends weren't supposed to ever know he wanted me back. He told me it was none of their business and that I was too concerned about what others think if I wouldn't agree to keeping our reconciliation secret!

You bet I jumped on that offer (NOT!!!)

Anyway, carry on with this most excellent thread.

Prodigal Husband, you posted:

"I stubbornly held on so I wouldn't have to accept responsibility for my actions, & because I was SURE I would never live it down."

I KNOW that's exactly what my WXH was doing too.

At one point he even suggested (while he was still with OW) that we could get back together again when his job here ended and he took another job out of state. He knew OW wouldn't leave her family and friends to move away with him. And he didn't want to explain to his co-workers why he'd get back together with me (after lying to them about what a supposed monster I was).

Well, OW did eventually break up with him, his job ended, he moved out of state for next job...

And then he did want me to move in with him, BUT never get remarried, and not tell his family (they live in Florida and never come to visit)!

I told him I'd rather live in a homeless shelter than take that offer!

SOOOOO.... I'm assuming you were never that far delusional and/or you knew your wife would never ever put up with that.

Unlike my WXH you must have had more desire to reconcile with your wife than to save face? Or maybe you just hadn't behaved as insane as my WXH so it was still possible for you to do the right thing with some sense of dignity still?

Really curious

prodigalhusband,

Thanks very much to you for posting here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How long did you and OW live together before your final bust-up?

Alph.

I wonder in RA's what that moment is like when the WS decides its what it is and thinks of coming back? Not that mine is anywhere near that on the contrary she is still spiralling out of control. But as someone who wants to have a chance to reconcile one day, what does it look like, what does it sound like. She knows it has to over with OM before I would talk, but would she really come out and be that honest about it, because what it sounds like is that initially they don't the responsibility that they should.

I know mine is PA/Narcissit right now so how does that change, I know it will take the OM to dump her. I also know he will blame me, saying that they can't be together because of me.

We have court in two weeks for custody and she has this world view that no matter what I have on her or how I have been with the kids she will win everything, the kids the money its almost sad how much she feels entitled.

Vike,


Done right by your lawyer and yourself, your wife may be just about to get the first notion that the world doesn't cater to her and her affair. I pray that the court sees through her and places your children in your care, makes her pay 1/2 the bills, child support, forbids the OM from being around them and more. This will be something of a wake up call. Will it be enough, I doubt it based on my own EX WW experience and actions. Although since she lost custody and pays CS she has come down from her mountain top of thinking that she was untouchable but only a short distance, not nearly far enough to see the bottom yet. She will, wait and watch (as will Mrs. Vike).

being honest, after i discovered the A and my H and i were in "false recovery" for about 8 months, i was trying really hard to forgive him but he just wanted me to forget it ever happened

neither one of us knew how to deal with what had happened

the worst thing is that i now realize how awful i was. there were times when i was so happy to have the chance to rebuild our marraige and there were moments when i really felt such rage at my H....there were times when i told him that i really didn't want to be married to him anymore....

and he really was trying hard. he stopped all contact with OW, and he wrote me poems, bought me flowers and beautiful cards....he really did try to make things right

he says that i destroyed the chance of us saving our marriage because i couldn't let it go....he said that he knew that i hated him for what he did and that things would never be the same...he said he could always see the pain in my eyes and that he felt too much guilt and shame when he looked at me to ever be happy with me again

and so he started contacting OW again...to feel better? to find someone who didn't think he did anything wrong? to find someone who made him feel like his was a good person again? to find someone else to spend his life with who didn't make him feel guilt and shame?

i honestly wonder if i did have my chance at reconciliation and because of my anger and pain, i made my H believe that i hated him too much for us to ever be happy together again

he did say that many times after he left....he said "you hated me!" and "i know that i ruined our marraige because what i did made you hate me"

he doesn't know anything about how hard it is for the BS....he really believed that if i loved him i should have let it go

he said to me more than once before he started seeing OW again "you've got to let this go or you will destroy us. I want to move on with our lives and you keep dragging us back to all of the pain"

i guess that a deep fear i have is that he believes that he rally tried and i couldn't forgive him...so he'd never try again

I am hoping things go well, for instance the past two nights my kids 6/9/11 didn't get to bed past 9:40 - they get up at 6:30 for school. Last night it was because she didn't pick them up until 9:20 from work. She WILL NOT allow them to stay the night, except when she goes off on her affair weekends or my every other weekend. Now I am caught in a catch 22 in our LSA that is why I am going to court, to get better visitation, I am hoping to get primaray, I have the evidence to get it but its up to the judge.

In my heart i have fovgiven her, its the fact in her actions that she hasn't changed or willing to change that makes me angery.

I fear that she will never be able to come back, she has never come back to any friednship that she destroyed, and she has destroyed all of them that she has had.

My pastor who knows us well, said it perfectly. My WW has never had a friendship longer than 2 years with anyone, before she destroy's it. With lieing and manipulation, even her current friends are close to her and are starting to fall off the side and now she has started new friendships up with people that don't know what she has done... so the cycle continues

eav,

I really wonder about that. From all I have seen it is apparent to me that waywards latch on to excuses as to why they began the affair, why they won't break it off, and why they won't work on the marriage. When they find an excuse that eases their guilt, they work it.

Maybe your husband really believes that your marriage can't be saved because of the damage done, which is why a Plan B letter should always mention that you are open to the possibility of reconciliation if and when the affair stops.

But there is probably an equal chance that this is nothing more than his excuse for continuing the affair. You say he stopped for a while, but others have stopped and found themselves drawn back to the OP. Have you seen how many folks here have endured false recoveries?

Viking,

If what you say about your wife is true, then it seems there are two ways to approach the problem with your relationship:

1. You are better off without this kind of person in your life. She has serious character flaws that will lead her to continuous problems in relationships in the future. End it, and try to clean up the mess as much as possible by minimizing the impact on your children and reducing contact with her to the bare legal minimum.

OR

2. Stick it out; find a counselor or psychiatrist who can get to the source of her problem and find a solution. Maybe you can be that one special person in her life that turns it all around and stands by her, creating the kind of stability she needs.

Bump for HS

Here is a quote from an article by Dr. Pittman in Psychology Today:

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born--any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

WOW! My FWH was definitely dealing with a number of life crises and began his relationship with the FOW in order to ESCAPE REALITY. He initially was trying to HAVE FUN and fell "in love" or WHATEVER.

Is this telling us that we need to INDULGE IN ESCAPISM with our spouses during stressful times rather than staying caught up in the DULDRUMS of life?

Since all of this occurred, I certainly have learned the IMPORTANCE of JUST HAVING FUN.....

I truly believe this is what happened to my WH.

We were having issues with our DD, he couldn't deal with it, and went to OW to escape the home life.

I think Pittman is explaining that certain times in our lives, when we are involved in a crisis either real or imagined, we are more vulnerable to having an affair when the opportunity presents itself.

In my wife's case, there were several issues that may have contributed to her having an affair. She was concerned about her genetic predisposition for breast cancer after a consultation with a geneticist. Her oldest child (my stepdaughter) was leaving for college. Her grandparents were in poor health. Our 17 year-old stepson was involved in some scrapes with the law. And she was getting ready to start a whole new job with a big step up in responsibility. All of these things occurred around the time of the affair.

And, of course, opportunity. The OM was basically working in our front yard.

Is it escapism? Most definitely. How do you keep it from happening? The only thing I can think of is be especially alert at staying "in touch" with your spouse during times of crisis. Be aware that your spouse might perceive something to be of crisis proportions even when you do not.

Hiker, I haven't found the posts on your situation. Are you getting divorced?

And thanks for all the great information. Seems like you spent a lot of time learning this stuff inside and out. Are you a doctor?

No, not a doctor. Just a guy who took a hit and is trying to get back on his feet again.

Divorce? Probably. I don't see any end to the affair. You can't save the marriage if the affair doesn't end.

I think and its unfortunate, if what we say is part of the problem with a Romantic Affair that dealing with reality is part of the root of the problem then our pressure to save the marriage is rooted in reality and thus is why RA's are the hardest to end. I think similiarly as Hiker does, the marriage will end in divorce, I will not go quitely into the night I will make it known and I will protect my children to the end.... this will push reality on her and she will most likely flee.... the kids growing up and being able to surpass her maturity level will also bringing pressure. How many young kids that don't understand what is going on eventually do and eventually turn against the W ayward parent.... I see this already in my own.

This is why again the RA is the most damaging to the marriage, to the spouses, to the kids and mostly everyone involved.

Its then comes down to our choice to either accept it, attack it or wait for it to pass.

If only I hadn't been in hospital getting my Crohn's diagnosis, whilst WXH and OW ran off to begin their affair in Barcelona. How selfish of me.

I think that during times of stress and dispair, it is perfectly acceptable for the person who is suffering to well, suffer! What is not acceptable is for their spouse to mumble and grumble about their needs not being met, and then run off and have an affair.

Good grief! Where is the perspective here? I thought I was dying of cancer, and he is off scr*wing someone else because he is under stress?


But why? WHY? He came back from that school trip with the OW, and after finding out my diagnosis never once asked me about my illness, or how I was feeling - he was already in love with the OW, and less than a year later he was gone. He had been so concerned about me before he left on that trip.

I'm sorry. Mimi, Hiker, everyone - sorry. This still upsets me so much. It just doesn't make any sense.

Alph.

Alph,

You're right, it doesn't make any sense. Pittman says the whole romantic affair thing resembles insanity to the outsiders. It only makes sense to the cheaters.

They're driven by emotion, not by reason. They get their fix from brain chemistry.

Hiker,

Does Pittman say that RA's will end, when, how etc?

As you, I don't see any end in sight. WH and OW are still living together. 7 mos. now. Her D was final a few weeks ago.

As you said...can't save a M while A is going strong.

WH still hasn't admitted he's even in an A!

((((Alphin))))

I don't in any way blame myself nor should you for your WH's RA.

I think the CRISES were the precipitating factor...

But it was my WH's IMMORAL (and a host of other BAD ADJECTIVES) DECISION to deal with his problems in such a COWARDLY AND SHAMEFUL WAY...YUCK....

What he did was WRONG and what your H did was WRONG and TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE...

And Catgirl:

My WH's RA affair ended after 2 years when I discovered it.

D-Day started the process of breaking down the FANTASY ASPECT of it.

It took PLAN B for him to fully come to grips with the REALITY of it.

We are VERY HAPPY now in a RECOVERY which has lasted over 3 years with my FWH taking EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS because he was HIGHLY ADDICTED to her....

I think it is KEY for you to EXPOSE the A...by catching him in the act..so that he can't DENY it to YOU...

The secretiveness of it is part of the ROMANTIC ASPECT....with them in their OWN LITTLE WORLD....YUCK....

Dr. Pittman's statistics about the end of romantic affairs are about the same as Dr. Harley's.

In his practice, he observed that most affairs end but he doesn't give numbers. He also says that five years after an affair, most people are back with their spouses.

But here are a couple of observations:

1. Dr. Pittman's observations are about his own patients. Obviously these are people seeking counseling. Dr. Harley's 85% figure of marriages that do not end in divorce as the result of an affair reflects only those people who seek counseling. There are probably quite a few couples who are torn asunder by infidelity who never do get counseling.

2. If 95 percent of all affairs end without the cheaters getting married, and 5% marry but only 25% of those are still married after 5 years, then only a little over 1 out of a hundred cheating couples have marriages that last longer than 5 years. Not very good odds for the cheaters.

3. The end of the affair doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation for the WS and BS. It looks as though the longer the affair, the less likely the chances for reconciliation.

4. Post-affair interviews with nearly all former cheaters whose marriage ended as a result of their infidelity regret the loss of their marriage (Glass 1987).

5. Seven out of ten divorcees (who have not remarried) of all kinds believe they were happier with their former spouse.

It has been a long time since I posted here. My W is involved in an RA with my cousin. It's a long distance mostly internet based A with no realistic future. Yet it has been ongoing for 10 months. W has not made any progress in adjusting reality to match her emotional reality (she has done nothing to become independent enough to move on - like she's waiting to be picked up and rescued). It's pretty clear that without the apparent "suffering" the affair holds little power - there needs to be a relationship to demonize in order to halo the affair.

Will it end? I don't know - I think that as long as the consequences of the affair are less painful than the self-imposed pain of real life, or the perceived fall-out from the affair, there's little motivation (especially when the high seems to be better than anything that ever existed in "real life"). There was no hesitation acting counter to all the societal taboos of having this sort of relationship with family (how many healthy women would want to have sexual relations with their son's blood relative that wasn't his father?), and this was before actual bonding took place. Now that the bonding has occurred, both of them convinced of the tortured romantic fantasy love that would make them sacrifice everything they worked in life to build, I don't think they will come to this decision on their own without some other strong draw. Maybe my cousin will have an affair on his affair partner with someone he can actually see!

Pressure hasn't helped much. It's been exposed and there's been little to no progress in popping the fantasy bubble. It just seems to feed into the logic of "they just don't want us to be together" or "see how much I love you that I'm willing to live with the stigma and ruin my relationship with these people?" It's truly sad. And the converse reality is that the marriage has become its own fantasy-nightmare of my W's making, where my WW sees me harming her, being mean and hurtful even though I am nothing but kind. I have addressed all sorts of issues I may have, and I'm thankful that I have had this opportunity, but it seems fruitless. She sees what she wants to see. Facts are interpreted as they suit her. It's so easy to get swept away in all the information there is out there - for instance, the fact that negative perceptions (whether real or imagined) that you dwell on leave lasting imprints on your brain, so the damage my W is doing to the me that she sees is lasting and real and she will never see me the way she used to, even if she does decide to give things a try again. This is one of if not the worst betrayal of all in this whole thing.

The trouble in my situation is that these two live in different countries. They can't be together, really, at all. It's not going to happen and this precludes the burnout that they would no doubt have if they were to realize the relationship by living together. So I just live and be the best dad I can be, and the best person I can, bettering myself and learning about myself and relationships never really sure where this will all end up, or if I'll even want to be with this woman in the end. I know, "in sickness and in health" but if she doesn't acknowledge her sickness - if she continues to view this (and have her feelings and thoughts on this subject validated by people close to her) as exploring and finding herself - a genuine part of herself that she won't regret or turn her back on, then she'll have incorporated this into her character. She'll have chosen to be a WW for life and will never participate in an equal relationship that she needs to work at.

I guess I have just as many questions as everyone else here (none that anything but time can answer), and a few somewhat pessimistic opinions about the outcome. I intend to maintain my positive outlook, protect my family to the best of my ability and make this a productive time for me. If I manage to hold the family together until my WW gets her act together and she chooses to work at herself and make our marriage work, then great. If not, then I will know I tried my best and will have made progress in myself that I won't regret. For me it's all about letting go - letting go of pain, control, anger, expectation and just doing what needs to be done. It certainly won't change my W's mind about me while the A is ongoing, but at some point when she turns around and stops running she may see the genuine, honest, loving, good man that I am and that I never stopped being and recognize how much damage she did in altering her emotional reality.

Yea...I think actually moving in with the FOW was the nail on the coffin of my H's A. He got to see her for what she REALLY was and got in touch with what he REALLY was doing...

Muddled, is there any way that you can arrange for you WW to go be with him? That's what the guy did in Surviving an Affair...helped his wife move out to be with the OM...

I'm speaking of PLAN B...

Muddle,


This is the conclusion that most BS's must come to when the WS refuses to stop the affair.

As you say, nothing but time can provide an answer.

However, I further recommend WORKING the MB PLANS....

Otherwise, the A can be ENABLED....

I don't know. I guess my WH is the exception.

He's been living with OW now for 7 mos. Just extended his lease and put her on it.

Her D was final a few weeks ago.

Them living together doesn't seem to be affecting their relationship at all.

I've exposed. didn't faze them.

Cat:

Have you been in PLAN B?

My WW has been involved in a romantic affair for 20 months now and left me and our 4 kids 3 months ago. I've been in plan B for only 2 weeks. The kids are refusing to have any contact with their mother. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for her but she has made a choice.The 'in love' state must be a very powerful emotion when it can take a 48 yr. old devoted wife and mother and change her into a woman who would abandon her own family and play a leading role in destroying the OM's family

Yes, it certainly is. This forum is loaded with tales of waywards discarding almost everything to pursue their "soulmate." More than a few suicides and murders have resulted from infidelity, too.

I can't help but think that the suicide and murder rate would go down for people who have been on this sight.
I never considered either and never would but I know this sight has helped me get through the emotional pain better than..............we'll, better than anything else I could imagine.

Does anyone here know of this happening to people who have posted here in the past?

JS

I am not aware of it, but I agree with you that just finding others on this website who are enduring the same pain and who can really understand what you are going through helps "get you through it."

Here is another Pittman quote about infidelity:

I've not read anything from Pittman but this quote has certainly got me thinking.
Very wise man.

What are some of his book titles you liked?

I honestly believe this site lower's that fact for those who attend and try and work things out.... I did read somewhere's that for those that are disposed to suicide it would be after all the attention is gone and it would be an act of last desperation. I think I also read that most suicides are for the attention not the ending act.... to bad you can't go back and ask the ones that did if they really meant to do it.

Does anyone find that spouses in RA's try and keep the chaos going vs someone that is just trying to have an affair and move on aftewards, either to divorce or back to their spouse. I know that we say RA's act insane sometimes, and their actions only seem reasonable to them vs the rest of the world.

I also think RA's exhibit the most common characteristics of a Passive Agressive / Narcissist and what I have read on those its pretty self destructive.

Well, Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy is the best, but he was also a regular contributor to Psychology Today magazine through the 1990s and many of those articles are very good. His most recent book is Grow Up!, a book which essentially promotes the idea of taking responisbility for one's own actions.

Dr. Pittman has been practicing over 30 years in Atlanta and has seen thousands of patients suffering from the tragic consequences of infidelity.

Viking,

The tag "narcissist" definitely applies to people engaged in romantic affairs, though not all are passive/aggressive.

Whether this narcissism is a permanent part of their personality or a temporary condition like the apparent insanity itself is questionable.

Those who leave, and don't come back, must have at least 'residual' traces of NPD in them, even pre-affair, especially when there are children involved.

Those who show no remorse, even after years, must have NPD. After the 'fog has lifted, and they still think they were justified - surely these adulterors think they are the most important people in the world - ex-spouses and children be d*mned.

Alph.

A very good point. These people are probably masters at self-deception and guilt suppression.

I find that the more intelligent a person, the easier it is for them to come up with clever, almost believable, rationalizations for their behavior.

I never would have thought my W was a narcisist before, but with all that has happened I see many reasons to think so. I certainly hope it's just a phase, but I'm not sure. She projects a lot, and in so doing often finds fault in me when I express my opinion about how I'd like to do something because "all I ever think about is myself!" No negotiations are possible, if I present my opinion she takes it as me exerting my will on her and uses this to "prove" that I oppress her. That and she truly believes that by changing her feelings or her inner reality a change in the external reality must occur (abstract, I know, but it seems such a pervasive truism). But then again, isn't this at the core of the resentment issue with everyone? Isn't resentment an immature attempt to change and take control of what is happening in a relationship by manipulating your own feelings? Haven't we all done this?

Muddled, did you miss this? I posted this yesterday.

Yes I missed it yesterday - sorry.

The trouble is that my cousin is in Europe and we're in the US. He can't move here without a work visa and there's not much of a market for his line of work here. He'll need to sacrifice everything - friends, family, career, etc - to move here, which I'm sure he's *willing* to do (if only to feed the passion of the affair). She can't move there for similar reasons, but the biggest being our son. She's not willing to walk out on him. As for plan B, we can't afford to separate now.

We have talked about separating and things are somewhat contingent on her getting on her feet as I can't kick her out (I can't afford the apartment without her income - and I don't think I have any legal recourse for doing so either) and we can't move into separate places on our income. Another reason why this affair makes no sense - the realities of life are so starkly oppossed to it!

As far as going dark while we live together goes, I've tried to do so (but it comes across as PA behavior on my part when I do so because she's so dependent on me and thinks she's entitled to my *services*). There has been some re-exposure that seems to be taking its toll on the A (it's nearly impossible to tell - I've thought it was ending before) because my W has been crying a lot while IMing with OM. I plan to see this through, living this way in a plan A state until the end of the year. Then things will happen if the affair has not ended.

Interesting. My ex has a very high IQ, and he's certainly come up with some great justifications. On d/day he virtually rattled them off, one by one, on his fingers. Alomst all of them related to how he wasn't appreciated enough by me.

Is narcissim itself related to IQ? My ex has always been pretty arrogant about his intelligence, and often talked to me (and others - particularly his younger brother) as if I were a silly child.

Alph.

I have never read anything that indicates a direct relationship between narcissism and intelligence. Strictly speaking, intelligence as measured by IQ should be totally unrelated to the part of the brain that controls emotion, where narcissism is definitely a product of an emotionally-affected view of oneself.

Now one could speak of emotional IQ, which would certainly be affected by narcissitic tendencies.

You could interchange the words "oppress" for "control" and I can say I have seen people use that tactic dozens of times as a way of trying to devalue any expression of an opinion that contradicts their own.

I see. I guess his intelligence was just one of the personal qualities he used to single himself out as 'special', then. But it could have been anything, I guess - looks, a special talent, or something entirely fictional.

Alph.

Incidentally, the inability of a person to engender sympathy for his/her victims is a characteristic of psychopaths.

That would be my WW.... we are going to court today so she can argue that she needs more money, I am paying all her bills and she wants more money.

I didn't know how easy it was to subpeona an airlines for flight information, she has been going and seeing the OM once a month on her dime and now we are getting direct proof of it from the airlines

Is narcissim essentially learned behaviour?

Alph.

No one seems to be quite sure whether it is acquired as a result of conditions during upbringing or predisposed by a combination of physical factors during the early formation of the brain.

I can't really comment on the narcissism, but the idea that a higher IQ can contribute to better deception, both of the self and others is almost self evident. One of the things that became clear to me quite early on was the lack of personal integrity - and by that I mean that WSs are at odds with themselves, emotion vs. intellect, etc. - and as such the choice must be made to trust or accept one or the other (emotions vs. intellect) as true. Once this choice to accept the emotional truth has been made, the intellect accepts this truth as truth and becomes a slave to it, just as a junky believes that the only way they will survive is to get the next fix (the smarter ones are able to get more creative about getting it). Everything is viewed through a lens designed to prove that the choice made was the right one, and all sorts of tactics are used to do so.

I think this comes down to a real philosophical question about where the true self lies, but in my opinion, intellect is a tool. It can be used to understand and adapt beliefs, but it can also be used to manipulate our own reality. Different parts of the brain working towards different ends, with the part that gets the attention of the true self getting rewarded and growing, while those parts that are ignored atrophy and are lost.

As long as a person is able to keep their external reality close enough to their internal reality they can maintain whatever belief structure benefits them best. Once they realize through painful experience that their beliefs are at odds with reality, they are forced to change them. Hopefully this will provide an opportunity to approach the situation from a balanced internal position that will allow for the creation of new beliefs. Of course, this presupposes a healthy emotional and intellectual outlook, which then leads to the question: is there something in the WS that predisposes them to the kind of thinking that allows them to do what they do or is it simply human nature, luck and will power?

Vike,

I have kept up with your sitch and I want to say that I hope you wear her out in court. Keep us informed and hang in there.

This is another way of saying what Dr. Harley has claimed about people: It is easier for them to change their values than it is for them to change their behavior. The actual statement comes from a study of behavior in the early 1950s in which the finding was that, when behavior comes into conflict with values, the values are usually modified so that the behavior can continue.


This is what is supposed to happen in Plan B.

IMHO, its the ability to "devalue" another person. This is at the core of entitlement and selfishness.

FWIW, I think an A is the coming together of opportunity and an individuals ability to rationalize.

Opportunity consists of both what environments you put one's self into, as well as what enters one's environment. If you look at many of the MB principles, they focus on environment control. 15 hours a week together, avoid overnight business, no opposite sex friendships, etc. It recognizes the fact that all people have the ability to rationlize all behaviors given a certain environment.

Rationlizing behavior is a value statement. Rationalization is not per se a negative term. Neither is making a value statement. For example when two different people invite you to a party at the same time, you make a choice and you value one of the two people higher than the other. This may not be a permanent valuation, but at that moment, one is valued more than the other.

I think the rationalization can take many forms accross a broad continuem. Perhaps at the minimum, is the "I'll never get caught". This takes little devaluation of the BS, since the WS probabilty adjusts the consequences to such a small level that the BS devalution does not need to be much. Said another way, Its like a WS saying "If I knew I'd get caught, I would never have done it". At the other end of the spectrum is probably the revenge affair. This is where the BS has been devalued so much, that the rationalization assumes the BS deserves this treatment.

What creates this ability to devalue another person? My best guess is that it is a function of how often that person has felt devalued by others. Difficulties at work, childhood issues, an inattentive or absent spouse, etc.

This is the basis of what Dobson believes about infidelity; that it starts with a gradual loss of respect by the potentially cheating spouse for his/her mate.


Another study recently done by a west coast psychologist (I can't remember his name) concluded that the chief factor contributing to infidelity was opportunity. It was his assertion that most people who have not cheated on their spouse simply didn't have the opportunity to do so.

I don't agree with that view. I have had a number of opportunities to cheat and haven't done so.

Just a couple things to add to this: I think the "ability" to devalue another person comes from one's propensity to devalue oneself. I think the faults one blames themselves for are often seen (by themselves) as what prevents them from acheiving what other "normal" people have. This, when projected outwards puts the responsibility for the faults they see restricting themselves onto other people, facilitating their entitlement and the sense that they are powerless to acheive what they want because of other people, but it is really only an outward projection of the lack of respect they feel for themselves.

I think you hit a home run with this post.

I may be splitting hairs, but I view respect and value with subtle differences.

To me, respect has to do with the sense of worth of a quality or trait. Value has to do with what I would exchange to acquire that.

As an analogy, I can respect the quality and craftsmanship of a nice Rolex watch. I get a sense of its worth. But I wouldn't pay $5,000 for one.

To me this distinction is important because I see many BS feel like their WS does not respect what they do or have done. Certainly, sometimes this may be the case. But other times, its not that they don't respect it, its that they don't value it.

As to the point about opportunity. I wish more people would understand this. One of my work responsibilities is to eliminate fraud. We spend 99.9% of our time eliminating opportunities for fraud, because we know that if people have the opportunity, they will eventually be able to justify the action.

I see your point, but I think there's so much overlap in the two words that often they are synonimous in the context of discussions here. I think respect in a relationship means that you always look to see the value in another person's opinion and point of view (and always assume it to be there - if you don't see it, you're not looking hard enough). It's the choice to no longer value their world view that demonstrates the lack of respect, not some action that deliberately betrays or demonstrates disrespect.

Muddle -

I think a person's propensity to devalue one's self plays a part. But I view this as much more of a the individuals response to a percieved devaluation. Some what of a fight or flight response. People who accept a devaluation from others, tend to feel devalued more often and then tend to have a greater ability to devalue others. People who fight it tend to feel devalued less often.

As to projecting it on others, I'm not all the way there.

I think you said it all right here: if I act a certain way towards you you can choose to accept this as an attempt to devalue you and cooperate with the attack and internalize it or fight against it or you can choose to view my actions in a different way - trying to understand what my intentions are in a respectful way, apart from the perception that I'm trying to harm you. I think a healthy person will offer the benefit of the doubt (which I think is simply a matter of respect) to the other and will try and see the real motives and intentions from the POV of the other person rather than to choose to play out a battle over their self worth at the expense of the other person. It really becomes an externalized battle over insecurities, either hiding/defending/rationalizing insecurities or beating oneself up over them.

I think there's a predisposition to viewing people's actions as attacks when one routinely beats themself up over their own insecurities and inadequacies. They are far more likely to see the other person, especially an intimate partner, as responsible for the feelings that they themselves bring about. The feelings are created within oneself but the responsibility is passed on to someone outside for "causing" the feelings. The response becomes habitual as a result of a defense mechanism constructed to deal with conflict in a poor way and fear of accepting responsibility for problems or even admitting they exist in the first place.

This is all very near and dear to me because my WW has issues with self esteem, social anxiety disorder, and a whole host of consequences of these conditions. I have seen this in action - the worse she feels about herself as a result of her choices and decisions, the worse a person I am perceived to be. A person with self esteem issues often ends a relationship to get away from the self that they became that has been witnessed by another (therefore making it real). If they can assign responsibility for their problems to another in a way that even remotely makes sense to them, they can satisfy emotionally the idea that they are ridding themselves of real problems and can have a fresh start at a life without these problems. Sadly, if no change occurs other than rearranging the players in their life, it's only a matter of time before the same situation is played out again.

This is a fantastic post, Muddle.

As a FWW, I whole heartedly agree w/ all of it.

I guess it's a good thing my intellect isn't too high, otherwise, it would have been able to convince me my feelings could be trusted. LOL

Great post! Very insightful!

And I'm so sorry for your situation.

~ Marsh

This seems to imply that at some point everyone succumbs to temptation and that the only way to eliminate people from making bad choices is to take the choices away.

That's a pretty pessimistic view of human nature. Does anyone remember that ten years ago or so ABC had a show on (maybe John Stossel) where they placed a wallet with $200 in various places along the sidewalks of several different cities? The wallet had ID and the objective was to see how many people would return the wallet with the cash to the owner. If I remember correctly, Savannah, GA, had the best record with the wallet being returned 7 out of 10 times.

That's not bad when one considers the temptation of keeping the money and tossing the wallet.

Consider the rationalizations that might be used to keep the money. Here are just a few:

1. Anyone stupid enough to carry that much cash deserves to lose it.

2. Finders, keepers.

3. If I didn't really need the money I'd turn this in, but this is a tough time for me with rent being due next week.

And that is how infidelity works. You are presented with the opportunity. You are faced with a decision about what is the right thing to do versus what you want to do, and consequently some people cross their boundaries and make the bad choice, supporting it with rationalizations.

Absolutely Hiker. Not more than three years after me and my now EX WW were married I was in Las Vegas having dinner with two male co-workers when a very attractive female sitting by herself started to have a conversation with one of my co-workers. One thing led to another and she joined our table. She was disenchanted with her marriage and was dreading going home to husband and son. Some of the talk was light and other was more serious. In short I said less than my co-workers and apparently she found that and me to be the more appealing one in the group. When we left she made it clear that she wanted to drive me to our hotel in her customized van no less.

I was extremely tempted and no one would ever have really known what happened EXCEPT ME. I would have cheated on my wife whom I adored and my daughter. More importantly I would have violated everything in my being that I tout as being important. Honesty, integrity, fidelity, etc.... Now that did not change that I REALLY wanted to go with her. Did I mention that she was funny, beautiful, smart, professional and more. I could only imagine the temporary feelings (i.e. - high) I would have gotten if I had taken her up on her offer. I didn't and explained to her that we were both married and we both have responsibilities at home AND that we would both like ourselves a lot better in the morning if we said goodbye now. She pecked me on the cheek and said a simple "thank you so much" and drove away.

I am not a hero by any stretch. Heck I wanted to go with her BUT I didn't. Two things, one we do need to eliminate the possibility of temptation because while I made a good decision this time I may not next time so why chance it but two, WE DO HAVE A CHOICE no matter the situation we are placed in whether its the temptation to have an affair, to return a wallet in tact, to lie to gain favor or whatever. Your core beliefs and values and ultimately your spiritual standing with Christ will make you or break you. The more you do the right thing the easier it is to do, and the more you make bad decisions and then justify them, well guess what, the easier it is to do.

Hope:

Let's do some what if's that probably fit with what happened with my FWH.

What if you passed that woman up maybe one more, maybe even two more times but the opportunity kept presenting itself?

What if you were vulnerable for any number of reasons?

Sad about a life crisis...your wife was busy, focused on your children..didn't have time to talk to you...

How about this woman JUST CALLS you on the phone to talk about her problems and you are able to help and she is very appreciative?

Maybe she starts calling once a week..then once every other day..

What would it hurt?

Maybe you call her back SOMETIMES...

This all starts FEELING GOOD but you still have not taken that ONE STEP....

Up to now, have you maintained your honor and integrity?

I'm saying that it is typically a SLOW PROCESS in a RA....not like a ONE NIGHT STAND...

Hey Mimi.... Good post.

I understand what you are saying that this often happens at vulnerable times in people's lives and usually happens over time not in one night. It starts with being friends, trusting one another, understanding, not judging, listening, touching and well you like me know where it ends up.

However, I know that at some point in the process questions come to the mind of the WS. Is this a good idea? I am starting to feel something for this person. I am starting to judge my spouse. I want to hug this person. I wished my spouse made me feel this way and on and on and on. What I mean to say is while my example above involved a one night encounter only, even in that one night's encounter there were several times from the beginning of dinner until the proposition and decision I made where I could see "red lights" going off. The same thing happens even more so in an affair that starts the way you and I describe herein. SO, there are many opportunties along the way to remove yourself, to do the right thing, all the way up to getting into bed with this person. Unfortunately, most WS's don't have what what it takes to do the right thing. Why? I don't know. Maybe they just do not want to. Perhaps the selfishness, entitlement and addiction are more than they want to or can control and they can't stop at any point along the path to destruction (i.e. - full blown EA/PA).

I understand what you are saying and believe a lot of it. BUT I stick by the fact that at some time in every affair the WS had the chance to stop. TO simply STOP. They chose not to for any number of reasons. IMO, most of them center on selfishness and entitlement. Thanks for the good discussion.

Several years ago I was dienchanted and felt was a wayward myself, I justified my actions by saying that I wasn't leaving my wife but I was going to a prostitute to feel like a man, even though I was SF with the wife at the time, it was the other things, the other pressures that I felt compelling me t justify my actions as okay. I agree there were several times when I knew what I was doing was WRONG, but you can easily ignore them, for a while. It does all come back to rost.

I think there is only a small percentage of people that wont wake to reality and at least realize their damage, but like we always say her its a marathon not a sprint. That applies to both sides, us on the MB side and the waywards on the affair side.

Its is 100% self entitlement that caused me to modify by value and moral consciousness.... It was professional success and a feeling of distance in the marriage...

I know realize where a lot of it came from and I see how wife now had her hands in it.... You know I think PA/NPD can rub off onto sane people...... I honestly think in my case that I was around her so much and started accepting her environment as normal and but when I did it she was completely destroyed, however i honestly feel that is what she was looking for, a solid reason to feel the victim... its always happening to me, I am always the one getting hurt, what have I ever do to deserve this... those would be the things I hear from her.

Got to get back to copying documents for court tomorrow

Vike

Let us know how court comes out. We are praying for you.

I think it sounds pessimisstic when you look at it on a one time basis. What I'm saying is that if you keep giving people the opportunity to succumb, they eventually will find a way to rationalize the behavior. They will

The wallet example is incomplete. It doesn't factor in time. If you had those same people find a wallet once a week or so for a period of ten years, eventually a very large percentage would at one time or another, keep the cash. Maybe they had a bad day, maybe their tired of going through the work of finding the owner, maybe they need bus fare, or their kid needs braces, etc.

Its the coming together of the opportunity and ability to rationalize. Said another way. If 1 day out of 100 a person could rationalize infidelity, and 100 days out of 100 they have the opportunity, then there is a 100% chance they will committ adultry. The reverse, if 100 days of 100 a person could rationalize it, but 1 days out of 100 they have the opportunity, then there is also 100% chance they will committ adultry.

With respect to fraud, since its virtually impossible to control what behavior a person could ultimately rationalize, you work on eliminating opportunities.

So its not to say taking the choices away is the only way to eliminate bad choices, its just the most certain.

That said, in recovering a M, I think it is a combination of both. I think the MB principles attempt to address both. Meeting EN's is certainly a method for removing anothers ability to rationalize infidelity. NC is the biggest area of removing opportunity for infidelity.

Well-said. GOOD POINT, RP!!!!

I think another point worth mentioning here is that not all moral values are universal. For instance, it might be perceived as a strength to take the found money, even a moral stregth if your purpose is to use this money for the good of your family or subgroup. I think moral values often come into conflict and very often there are many factors that come into play at the moment a moral judgement is made.

I think the simple fact that things like cheating or stealing occur in society are reasons that one should protect against by eliminating opportunities if there's something of value to protect. It's the only thing you can control. Furthermore, I think that as long as we see this occuring in society at large we should be on alert for the propensity to act this way ourselves. Human nature is displayed in the actions of society, we are all human, so therefore we are capable of everything we dislike in society.

Hiker's thought about how this reflects on human nature is interesting to me because the idea of how people regulate their actions in relationship (with other people or with society at large) is interesting to me - but I wouldn't put the same value judgement on the observation. I think we all have this general idea that if we all govern ourselves appropriately, or the "right" way then our society will function properly. So we punish the outstanding instances where people don't act the "right" way. The trouble with this is that what is right is a very gray area, as it's influenced by so many different factors and the degree to which people even want to behave properly is a subjective thing as well. So rather than try and control the behavior of people we limit the choices available to them. This is the only way to ensure they don't act "wrong" (intimidation only works so well). But the paradox here is that while we can't control other people, we can discipline ourselves to act in accordance with what our moral value code deems right and accept that others will not follow our code (and that our compliance with it doesn't imply that they should either), but maintain an optimistic outlook that will enable us to be aware of how well we interact with others when we do. Not act properly because we're afraid of the consequences, but rather our of love for ourself and the relationships we are lucky enough to be in.

I think the implementation of MB principles can reduce the likelihood of infidelity with many couples, but I firmly believe that there are other causes for infidelity that are not based on the failure to meet EMs.

NC is necessary to stop an affair from re-occuring with a particular individual, but that doesn't prevent an adulterous relationship with someone else.

MB also provides some insight about taking care not to place yourself in a position where infidelity is likely to occur, i.e., talking about problems with your marriage to a person of the opposite sex.

I do not believe, however, there is any way to affair-proof your marriage.

No matter how you cut it, character is still an issue.

In general, this is certainly true. However, some things are a matter of black and white. I think infidelity is one of those things.

Some indications of the wrongness of it are the breaking of a promise (explicitly or implicitly made), the pain inflicted on the spouse and children, and the selfishness of the act.

Hiker:

I agree with you that having an AFFAIR is MORALLY WRONG.

However, I don't fully get what you mean by the statement above.

Some people have a loosely held moral code, a sort of code of moral expediency. What is expedient at the time is what determines the values held.

Others have a much stronger adherence to their own moral code. We would ordinarily call these people of character.

Where the threshold exists that separates the two, I cannot say.

I view my FWH as a MAN OF CHARACTER..A MAN WITH CHARACTER..

He had a BREACH in his CHARACTER which continues to cause him much RAW, RAW EMOTIONAL PAIN when he goes there now into his soul....It is SCARY TO SEE...It's like he's been to the GATES OF ****** and back...

That's because he is basically a MAN OF CHARACTER.

That can certainly be the case; no one has an absolute adherence to their moral code -- at least no one I have ever met.

And so, in our case, Steve H. stressed how his affair was an ADDICTION....

Now that I think of it one thing that stands out in my H's case has been is acknowledgement to me from D-Day that what he was doing was "WRONG". He states that he never could get the FOW to agree to this..with her trying to convince him that the A was not "WRONG". For a long while, he felt that what he did to BOTH OF US was "WRONG" but he has come to see her as a participant in the "WRONGNESS" as the fog has lifted over the years...he sees her as being just as "BAD" as he was...

As is true with others here, his continued guilt about her used to really bother me but it has vanished over the years.

Sadly, I hear the other side of that: "What's right for me may not be what's right for everyone else." The interesting thing is that even though this is clearly a lie that she believes, it would seem counter to the objective of creating an environment conducive to brain chemical production because it takes away the element of doing wrong. Then again, it's likely only for outward appearances. That and she's probably trying to convince herself that this is a workable relationship and not a fantasy.

I don't look at it as much as whether moral values are universal vs. has the value system of that individual changed. In the case of infidelity, it clearly has.



IMHO, "environment control" runs through many of the MB principles. NC is just the first one. The 15 hours a week has an element of eliminating opportunities. Being an open book, PORH, etc.


Of course there is, lock you and your spouse up with no contact to the outside world. Ok, I'm joking, but I think the point of the MB principles is to reduce opportunities and ability to rationalize at the same time. Just simple math if someone has the opportunity 50% of the time and the ability to rationalize it 50% of the time than there is a 25% chance for an A to occur. If you cut one of those down to 25%, the chance for an A to occur is 12.5%. If you cut both of them down by 25%, the chance is 6.1%. If you cut either 1 to zero, you've affair proofed your marriage. But if that is not possible if you cut both of them down to 1%, the odds of an affair are 0.01%. Which is pretty close to affair proof.


Don't think I'd agree with that.

From Dr. Frank Gunzburg"


If two people are confronted with the same conditions for creating an opportunity to have an affair, with one submitting to temptation and one not, I think that can be labeled a matter of character.

I agree that following MB principles greatly reduces the opportunities for infidelity. I don't know if anything really affects one's ability to rationalize it.

I read someone's story recently -- probably here -- regarding the infidelity of a wife who was a psychologist! Here is someone who should understand the pathology of an affair and yet still engaged in it.

You could say in this case that one's intellect and reason were overpowered by emotion, which is probably true in most affairs.

Hiker45, Do you the reference of the book you are quoting ( Frank Gunzburg) ? Thanks

Who is Frank Gunzburg?

What is the basis of his viewpoint?

I'm pretty sure that the Harleys would not agree with this point of view.

I don't have the book with me...but early on in Surviving an Affair..Dr. Harley makes it clear that he thinks that any of us could have an affair. Steve Harley didn't want to listen to my psychological theories about the underlying causes for my FWH's affair. The point was: "what will be helpful now will be for you to do THESE PLANS..PLAIN AND SIMPLE...

Dr. Frank Gunzberg is a practicing psychologist in the Baltimore area.

The source of the quote above is from an article that appears on his blog.

Here is a short piece he wrote about why cheaters cheat:

I don't know whether the Dr. Harley would agree with Dr. Gunzburg or not.

My purpose in quoting anyone, whether it be Pittman, Glass, Dobson, or anybody else, is to offer assistance in understanding infidelity.

I am like most folks here; looking for answers. The fact that all these professionals may or may not agree doesn't diminish my interest in their viewpoints.

It strikes me that infidelity is sufficiently complex to entertain a variety of valid opinions.

But Hiker...

Respectfully keep in mind that we are visiting the Harley's website and they strongly recommend strict adherence to their approach.

I am not recommending an approach. I am offering information that may be of benefit.

If you read my intial post to this thread you will see that I clearly stated that only Dr. Harley offers a method of stopping the affair: Plan A/B.

I hope we aren't going to get into the kind of intolerance than drove WAT from this site.

Please veer OT for a bit and tell me what happened with WAT. He was one of my SAVIORS after D-DAY and during MY PLAN A.

I like your disclaimer, Hiker.

In my experience, understanding the A is coming moreso NOW during my PERSONAL RECOVERY.

Early on, I think it's key to FOCUS ON WORKING ON THE PLANS..STAYING IN THE HEAT OF THE BATTLE.

While THERE, there's not much time for intellectualizing. Plus, IMO, it can result in confusion..INFORMATION OVERLOAD...that was my experience. I could only focus on MBer's and barely could do that without the assistance of the folks here.

WAT e-mailed me some time ago that he was leaving the MB boards because he felt the moderators were not reigning in certain posters who were -- I believe he said -- religious bigots.

I never really read the threads where they debated religious issues, probably because I know from experience that such debates usually become heated and rarely persuade the participants to adopt a different view.

Incidentally, I am all for following a plan for ending the affair and recovering the marriage, however, there are more than a few folks here who can't follow a strict Plan A/B because of their circumstances.

For some BSs, intellectualizing may be a key to gaining an understanding of a situation that seemingly defies understanding.

Thanks for filling me in about WAT, Hiker.

I think your thread is very helpful.

However, I think there is need for care not to give the ALLUSION of ADVOCATING OTHER APPROACHES on a site that is OWNED by the Harleys.

I'm thinking that you don't want to do that. Right?

From Penalty Kill

I hope that you both don't mind me dropping in to your thread. I have been following it for some time, with interest.

I think Mimi, that the Harleys offer a very tried and true method for dealing with the problem of infidelity. Actually, their approach and the AA/NA approach to addiction are very, very similar. That was the first thing I noticed.

Of course you will have the theories about whether alcoholism/drug addiction is a defect of character or a disease. Not everyone agrees. The Harleys treat infidelity as a disease that must be identified and dealt with every single day. NC/abstinence - realize your powerlessness/protect your weaknesses, etc.

(And of course there are groups out there that say you don't need to abstain from alcohol/drugs the way AA/NA describe. That it can be managed in other ways than abstinence. I just know that doesn't work for me. I just don't drink - period. In the same way I am very glad that I haven't had to see OM for years. It was much easier when I decided to go NC. I'm always skeptical when a WS says that they can work w/OP and still be in recovery. But I digress....)

In so far as character, this is where Steve Harley (and presumeably his father) discuss protecting your weaknessses. Some people are better at knowing their weaknesses and thus, protecting them. Some people are ignorant of their weaknesses (that would be me, in the past tense) and thus fail to protect them.

Is the fact that I didn't protect my weaknesses a character issue? Some would say yes, some would say no.

I guess that I'm interested in views from all sides. I take what seems to apply to me and discard the rest.

The "180" is a plan that has been used by a number of people on this site, presumably with some success. It is not a Harley plan; it comes from counselor Michelle Davis.

Although I have not posted any part of the "180" myself, I have seen a number of references to it in this forum. Do you think that Dr. Harley would object to any mention of it on this website since it doesn't represent a strict adherence to his plans?

Penaltybox,

Dr. Harley once operated a series of clinics treating drug addiction. To his mind, an addiction to an affair can be treated in the same way as an addiction to drugs or alcohol.

Posted by Hiker:

"Another study recently done by a west coast psychologist (I can't remember his name) concluded that the chief factor contributing to infidelity was opportunity. It was his assertion that most people who have not cheated on their spouse simply didn't have the opportunity to do so.
I don't agree with that view. I have had a number of opportunities to cheat and haven't done so."

I have to agree with you here, Hiker.

I also have had plenty of chances to cheat - but chose not to. Plus, I also took responsibility to (as much as practical/possible) eliminate temptation from my environment.

I think this ties in with loss of respect for the BS as maybe a factor with the WS's justification though.

Since my WH obviously did not resist temptation, let alone try to prevent temptation, he must have assumed that my being faithful was mostly based on no other man wanting me?

In fact "No man would want you" is something that he actually said to me many times while he was involved with OW. Apparently having no sense that he is responsible for his own choices, that each of his affairs 'just happened'... I guess he must have thought the ONLY reason I wasn't fooling around too was because I had no opportunity to?

Weirdness

I honestly don't think he'll show any indication of regret until I'm involved with another man. And I'd be willing to bet all he'll do then is blame ME for breaking HIS heart...

Actually, I was very specifically told NOT TO DO THE 180 PLAN by Steve Harley after being recommended to do this by folks on the forum.

I started my counseling with him with lots of knowledge about psychology and lots of theories about the causes for my H's affair.

He wanted me to focus on working on the PLANS and wanted me to focus on seeing my H's A as an ADDICTION.

I recall him saying: "You have got to get this"....

That's why I am so biased in my view.

However, I do believe that my H's affair was a ROMANTIC AFFAIR.. so I find this discussion to be interesting.

But regardless of that and the other CAUSES of his affair, I attribute our RECOVERY to use of the MB PLANS.... PLAN A then PLAN B....now the FOUR RULES in RECOVERY....

I do think that some WSs make this assumption. Just as I think many WSs believe they can cheat and not get caught, probably because some don't.

Hi Mimi,

I.ve been reading your discussion with Hiker:

"Now that I think of it one thing that stands out in my H's case has been is acknowledgement to me from D-Day that what he was doing was "WRONG". He states that he never could get the FOW to agree to this..with her trying to convince him that the A was not "WRONG". For a long while, he felt that what he did to BOTH OF US was "WRONG" but he has come to see her as a participant in the "WRONGNESS" as the fog has lifted over the years...he sees her as being just as "BAD" as he was...As is true with others here, his continued guilt about her used to really bother me but it has vanished over the years."

It sounds as if your WH was a man of character who succombed to temptation (rather than a person who committed adulteries because of a pre-existing lack of integrity).

It seems that a lot of adulterers are not repeat offenders and do sincerely regret (eventually). But some (like my WH) are serial adulterers and really do have a character flaw. Furthermore, our culture is promoting the adultery mindset and adultery temptations. So maybe adultery is becoming more widespread and integrity becoming rarer?

I have given a lot of thought about (OK obsessed over LOL) why the WS has such resistance to admitting the OP did something wrong too. I've heard it is more common for WH's to defend the OW than for a WW to defend the OM. Is it the WH's thinking that it would be ungentlemanly to not defend the OW? IMO it just further hurts the BW.

(In fact I wouldn't even consider reconciliation until after my WH was able to prove he no longer felt the OW were in any way superior to me or 'innocent', 'good girls', blah-blah-blah. Not saying ALL BW's should have that condition before reconciliation attempt - I've tried reconciliation without it though and WH never gave up thinking of OW as anything but innocent - YUCK!)

I find my WW is directly projects her actions on me, saying things that she is doing is what I have done to make her. She feels justified in her actions because of previous. She feels that she is in the clear because we are legally separated but she still goes to church and leaves out the part of the OM. They are so manipulating when they stray

Hi Mere:

I am beginning to recognize now that my FWH is different than the serial adulterers. He was an upstanding person in our church and in our community..people looked up to him...and us as the "PERFECT COUPLE". He fits the stereotype of the FALLEN MAN and he sees himself that way. It really PAINS him.

Maybe that's why Steve focused on the ADDICTION theory moreso.

About the OW..she was from the other side of the tracks and he was "walking on the wild side"...they partied and were WILD..YUCK.. She was much younger and he did HELP her alot and I "hate" that..It seems that too much GOOD came out of the A for her..he encouraged her to go to college and to buy a house... But I don't know, REALLY...what her life is like now...I wanted her to SUFFER more... Alot of this I have figured out and learned since our RECOVERY. As I said earlier, when I was caught up in it, I felt CRAZY and did not have much time to THINK about it . I'm just PROCESSING a lot of it NOW after 3 years.

Mimi,

Believe me when I say I am very glad to hear you have successfully recovered your marriage. It is an inspiration for all of us. And it may well be that the MB way was the only way that would have worked for you.

The underlying assumption in MB is that infidelity is the result of one spouse not meeting the cheating spouse's emotional needs.

Quite frankly, in my opinion this is just one of many possible causes for infidelity. There are different types of cheaters and different reasons that they cheat.

Ok, Hiker.

I hear you.

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This is guilt transference in action. The best way to alleviate the guilt is by assigning blame to you or to the marriage.



A separation somehow seems to allow cheaters to engage in the affair "honestly." To them, separation must be as good as a divorce when it comes to pursuing the affair.

I have to agree with Hiker here. In my case, the ENs that I am faulted by my WW for not meeting in my marriage were needs that no-one could be expected to meet - not that I couldn't have been a better husband, I could have and am working towards that now. My wife wants to be rescued from her own feelings - and I'm to blame for not doing so. Until she's able to reconcile her expectations with reality, no marriage she has will work. She's looking to relationships to fix herself, to make her whole. No amount of tring on my part will accomplish this.

I too am inspired by your recovery.

I think the trouble with discussing something so near to us in a general sense is that we tend to apply our experiences to the phenomenon in general. We analyze our situation and see enough parallels in others' stories to reinforce our findings, and we find ourselves not looking to each person's story as unique, but rather looking for what we believe to be there in the story.

I hear you, too, STRONG AND CLEAR, Muddled....

However, with some reservation, I have to add that much of what you say about your WW I thought about my H...but I was still encouraged to focus on the ENs in dealing specifically with the AFFAIR..some of our MARITAL ISSUES and STOPPING THE AFFAIR were TWO DIFFERENT THINGS..Make sense?

MB is aimed at bringing an end to AFFAIRS..not helping to resolve MARITAL ISSUES..

It is a BEHAVIORAL APPROACH..much like helping folks with their ADDICTIONS...

In the mental health field, regardless of whether a person is depressed, anxious, bipolar or had an abusive childhood causing issues in adulthood (true for both me and my H) or what have you, SUBSTANCE ABUSE COUNSELORS TREAT THE ADDICTION FIRST. Make sense?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I see the validity to that approach. Certainly there's no way to work on a marriage while an affair is ongoing - especially an RA. But on some level, the addict has to want to change. They have to recognize that they are using to mask their pain, or to fill a void and they have to resolve that problem as well. If the affair is simply destroyed without the underlying problem getting resolved, the addiction will simply transfer to another "substance".

We are on the same page, Muddled.

This is what I think happened with my H.

He began to rely on the OW for use as an ANTIDEPRESSANT and got hooked.

During PLAN B, it stopped working for him. He was DEPRESSED and the DRUG stopped working. She couldn't keep the source going 24/7.

He came back home DEPRESSED and the DEPRESSIVE CORE inside of my H remains...now he has the added burden of the PAIN that he feels about the A.

I'm speaking for him but the way I understand it is that he has ACCEPTED that EMOTIONAL PAIN is a part of life and he has to LIVE WITH it...rather than try to escape from it.

I don't see him choosing another addiction. From what he shares, what he ENDURED during PLAN B..living with the OW 24/7 makes him not want to go back to THAT EMOTIONAL PLACE again...he describes it like it was a LIVING HE//...not giving any specifics...some of it was his GUILT about what he was doing....and concerns about the life they were leading...

We both are rather what the psychologists call DSYTHYMIC..having lived all of our lives as long as we can remember with a LOW GRADE DEPRESSION...

This applies to my WW as well. She has been depressed as long as she can remember. For the first time in her life she doesn't "feel" depressed, yet her thinking always makes her a passive participant in her life. The feelings have changed yet the reasons she felt depressed before haven't - if anything she has more reason to be depressed now, and it scares me to think of what this will do to her in the end.

I know plan B will significantly change the way my W views the world. There's so much that she takes for granted now that will be gone. It will be a real wake-up call. The trouble is that I don't think it can be done until the process moves along, and by then it might be too late - the dramatic cutting of emotional support ties may not be so dramatic after so much time. On the other hand, things are different now than before - I have grown a lot and am recognizing a lot of things in myself that have allowed bad dynamics in the relationship, but more importantly, in the way I interact with myself and the world. She's aware of the changes, and she likes and respects them, but she doesn't know how or why they came about. This has raised her curiosity level, which has renewed her desire to reach out - and renew some of her attachment to me. There's hope.

It seems many people believe their spouse should make them happy, and if they are not happy, then there must be something wrong with their marriage.

In our society, which seems to grow less spiritual and increasingly materialistic with the passing of time, it may be inevitable that more people will seek happiness from external sources, rather than within themselves.

Ooops. Wait a minute. Dr.Harley advocates this.

The First Rule of Marriage is the RULE OF PROTECTION which states AVOID BEING THE CAUSE OF YOUR SPOUSE'S UNHAPPINESS.

p. 166 in Surviving an Affair:

One of the easiest ways to protect your spouse is to follow another rule- THE POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT...by getting your spouse's enthusiastic agreement to what you do, you avoid behavior that will cause your spouse to be UNHAPPY.

I just LOVE the FOUR RULES OF MARRIAGE which we definitely were not following prior to my H's affair but strictly adhere to now.

We are discussing two different things here. True happiness/inner peace (the general condition in life of which most people are trying to attain) cannot be sustained by external influences (unless you consider the pharmacological solutions).

Temporary fixes of happiness or joy can be generated by numerous events, just as unhappiness can be caused by any number of situations.

Dr. Harley is merely saying that we should not be the source or cause of our spouse's unhappiness or misery. That is not the same as saying we must be the source of our spouse's long term happiness/inner peace. That is a burden no one can carry, nor should they be compelled to do so.

Ok, Hiker. Agreed.

In fact, this is what Dr. Harley specifically states about this in his article about the CODEPENDENCY MOVEMENT.

I think this may be the logic in some cases, but in others I think it is a little different. I think some people get into affairs in an attempt to create there own inner happiness. Some people say to themselves one day, I'm not happy. Then they "experiment" with new things to try and be happy. This experimentation at the begining could be completely acceptable. A new hobby, a new job, etc. BUt if that doesn't do the trick, they relax the constraints on their choices of experimentation. Their value systems change. Then their experiments become not so acceptable. They have an affair and voila, they are happy. Much has been written on the physiological reasons why they feel happy. At this point, once they have discovered happiness with OP, then they conclude something was wrong with the marriage. It had to be so because I was unhappy when I was with BS and I was happy when I was with OP. I think this is more the case with romantic affairs.

To compound this even further, it starts a downward spiral. As the A continues, but before D-Day, the M becomes more and more a source of unhappiness, as tension mounts as the WS withdraws more, conceals more, etc. and the unwitting BS begins to rage against an enemy they do not even know. This further reinforces M bad, OP good. The BS doesn't believe this is the case because in their efforts to conceal the A, they have convinced even themselves that they are acting no differently towards the BS.

After D-Day, it spirals downward even further.

Post this, I think some WS's never realize this dynamic. I think others realize it, but still want to get a way from the M because they can't believe the M will ever make them happy given the damage they have done.

In my situation, my wife has articulated that she was looking to a relationship (and bringing a child into the world) as a way to restore the security of her family that she lost to divorce when she was 18. So her expectation of the relationship's function is not simply to "make her happy" but it's to fix her past, replace what was lost and broken. A bit ironic, but I guess that's the way this nasty cycle works generation after generation.

In our society lack of happiness tends to always be attributable to something external - looking to Hollywood seems to prove this. If you're single you are unhappy because you're not in a relationship, if you're married it's because the relationship isn't working, or you don't have enough money, or friends. I think the real problem does come down to pervasive materialist thinking - even in the areas of spirituality. I think the problem is that our society has two goals that are constantly at odds: our economy is dependant on people NOT being "happy" and convincing them that "happiness" is just a purchase away and then we have the goal of actually being happy. I put happiness in quotes because I don't think what's being sold is happiness, but rather the excitement anticipation of and the actual the satisfaction of lust - I think true happiness appears dull next to this. A pretty clear parallel can be drawn here.

On the subject of happiness, I read a great book that is worth reading. It's called "What Happy People Know" by Dan Baker. He's comes from the field of Positive Psychology,, which is interesting because it has diverged from the traditional medical model. It doesn't subscribe to the notion that health is the elimination of pathology (if you have a scale with a value in the negative, and you remove whatever is pulling it into the negative you're still at zero). He's suggesting a pretty holistic approach to interacting with life that really opens up a lot of opportunities for changing your own experience.

(I think you meant "The WS doesn't believe . . .")

This is unquestionably true. The BS is initially unaware of the betrayal, but the relationship deteriorates as the WS withdraws. There is often noticeably less affection and sexual fulfillment from the WS, and tension increases. There may be more arguments; some the result of the conscious or unconscious actions of the WS to actually sabotage the relationship as a way of pushing away the BS and thereby excusing the affair.

Here is another favorite tactic of waywards to deflect the real issues of an adulterous relationship:


"He/she (the OP) has nothing to do with our problems." -- the wayward spouse speaking to the betrayed spouse.

Dr. Pittman, Dr. Glass, and others mention this line of thinking as a strong indication of self denial and self deception.

Hiker,

Absoultely right on! My EX WW did this and I thought I was going insane. I thought of having her admitted before I knew of her A. Heck, I thought I was going insane.

Hiker, I would like to talk to you sometime about this matter if you choose. You offer some very good insight on this subject. My email is jefferyrwebb@tds.net
If you will email me I will provide my cell phone number.

hopeandpray,

I will e-mail you at my first opportunity -- can't do it from this computer.

In the meantime, can you direct me to the thread of your story so I can catch up on the facts?

Hiker,

I will try and find it (a while back now) but it will be a lot easier to give you the cliff notes by phone when we talk. Suffice it to say that I have now divorced EX WW, have custody of our 21 month old son and I am doing quiet well in getting over this tragedy. I want to share with you but I am really interested in talking pariculars regarding this thread on Romantic Affairs more in order to understand some things a little better.

I look forward to us talking.

Yes - Thanks for catching my typo

I have to say this particular thread has helped me so much to understand the deception capabilities of a WS in a RA. I really thing the CIA should hire these people for super spies.... I hope my WW one day comes to a realization of the impact of her actions.... he has basically through her life away. She is living on a shoe string, string her parents along to support her while waiting for her knight in shinnig armor to come and rescue her.

hopeandpray,

I e-mailed you and it was returned with a message that your mailbox was full.

vikingruler,

I think one of the most important contributions of this thread is that it helps us (BSs) understand that there is often a recognizable pattern to WS behaviors. Like hopeandpray, after reading enough material about the behavior of waywards, I realized I wasn't going crazy after all.

Think of any list you see like a comparison of YOU versus CRACK COCAINE. It essentially the same comparison and as you regain your self confidence that list will mean nothing to you. You will be able to see it for what it is .... a load of fog crap.

I did my share of snooping during my wife's affair and in doing so I gained enough insight into her mind to conclude at that time she was nuts. The breaking point or lightbulb moment for me was when I overheard my wife telling OM by email that I was TOXIC. It is/was so far from the truth that I was totally able to comprehend it was ALL fog talk and none of it was a reflection on me. The addiction had taken over and she would say or do just about anything to keep her "endorphin" supplier open and delivering the really good stuff.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I emailed Hopeandpray too and got the same message. Check your other email box hope...I sent you a couple today.

Mr. Wondering, Hiker;

I think I cleaned up my email. Try me again.

Thanks

There are a host of painful aspects with regard to infidelity. The attack on one's self-esteem is certainly one of the more critical issues, since one's reaction to this can range anywhere from a conscious effort to "re-create" oneself into a new image, to the extreme opposite: suicide.

I wonder if there is any more effective way of destroying a person's self confidence than by having the person you love most, and who once proclaimed that same feeling for you, suddenly decide that you are no longer worthy of their affection.

This site and all the material I've read helped me understand that:

a. Millions of people do this to their spouses.
b. The pattern of wayward behavior is strikingly similar, right down to the things they say.
c. The overwhelming majority of their "soulmate" relationships with OPs dissolve into nothing within a few short years or less.
d. Marriages can be saved from this disaster and actually become better with a good recovery program.

When cheaters cheat on each other . . .

I read an interesting article about how many adulterers end their affairs. It seems it is not unusual for one of the cheaters to take an interest in someone else, essentially cheating on their cheating partner.

Can you guess what the most common excuse for breaking up is under these conditions?

The cheater tells his/her partner that he/she is having second thoughts about cheating; that they feel they should end their affair and try to make amends to their spouse. They claim to have an attack of conscience.

Then they move on to the next affair partner.

Hiker, what do you think caused your wife to have an affair?

Mickey,

Well, that is the million dollar question, isn't it?

The short answer is: I don't know.

As Dr. Gunzburg says, it isn't important that we know why:


That doesn't mean I haven't asked myself over and over why it happened. Despite what Gunzburg says about a "hole in their character," you can't just chalk it up to character issues or flaws. We all have those, of one kind or another.

I thought back to my days in college and asked myself why I didn't get involved in drugs or any of the other kinds of trouble that were so prevalent then. The answer I came up with is that besides knowing it was wrong, I didn't want to disappoint my parents. I didn't want to lose their respect. One of the hardest things for me to have to hear was my father saying, "I'm disappointed in you," whenever I did something wrong.

A few years ago I attended a summer college class. This beautiful blond about twenty years younger than me was obviously trying to put the moves on me; sitting next to me no matter where I sat, trying to engage me in conversation, inviting me to lunch, etc. Was I attracted to her? Yes. Did I avoid an affair because of my marital commitment? Well, partly. But when I think back now I believe another motive was that I did not want to lose the love or the respect of my wife (I guess I always assume these things can't remain a secret).

And so maybe Dobson is correct when he says infidelity starts with the cheating partner losing respect for their spouse. As it happens, I had tremendous respect for my wife.

But then again, if that is the case, I don't know why she would lose respect for me.

It wasn't the fact my wife is beautiful and intelligent and kind that caused me to marry her. I've dated lots of women who had those characteristics. Ironically enough, I now understand that one of the main reasons I wanted to marry her was that I thought we shared the same basic values.

Maybe one of the reasons couples grow apart is that one spouse's values change while the other's remains the same or goes in another direction.

Anyway, if her values changed over time, then it might be that she came to disrespect my "old fashioned" moral code.

But all this is just conjecture. When it comes down to it, I don't really know why she had an affair and I don't think she really knows why either.

bump for a newbie.

Romantic affairs create an almost inescapable trap. The steps to the end are predictable, but like a speeding train heading for the open drawbridge, knowing what is going to happen doesn’t always help you stop it.

1. For any number of reasons (none of them justified) one spouse secretly begins an affair after becoming attracted to another person.

2. The cheating spouse “falls in love” and begins rationalizing his/her actions.

3. By comparing their affair with their marriage, cheaters suddenly come to the conclusion that they were not as happy in the marriage as they should have been, and begin finding fault with their spouse, their marriage, or both. (Dr. Glass calls this comparing a Stage 1 romance with Stage 2 love.)

4. The betrayed spouse eventually discovers the affair and either immediately walks away from the marriage, or more often, tries to save it.

5. The cheating spouse can’t bring him/herself to end the affair and tries to juggle both relationships for a time.

6. The betrayed spouse’s pain and frustration build up, occasionally causing lovebusting arguments with their spouse, or the betrayed spouse runs a good Plan A, but fence-sitting results.

7. The betrayed spouse’s lovebusting feeds the cheating spouse’s rationale for staying with the OP, and may eventually provide the cheater with the justification for divorcing the betrayed spouse, or:

8. After making every effort to save the marriage, the cheating spouse’s fence-sitting causes the betrayed spouse to reach the limit of his/her endurance and calls it quits.

9. The couple divorce. The betrayed spouse is unhappy but works on rebuilding his/her life. The kids are also unhappy. The cheating spouse’s affair eventually ends. He/she may come to the conclusion that the OP was not really their soulmate after all. He/she may be drawn back to their former spouse, realizing that things may not have been quite as bad in the marriage as they first thought, but by then the damage is too great to recover the relationship.

10. The betrayed spouse, having learned much about marriages and relationships, finds someone else and creates a better life for him/herself. The kids are juggled back and forth between their parents and appear to have adjusted to this new life, but in fact, they will always have suffered at least some adverse emotional damage as a result of the split. The cheating spouse, having ended the affair and given up the prospect of restoring the relationship with their former spouse, begins seeking the same romantic thrill he/she found in the affair through dating.

11. The cheater’s search for a passionate relationship can go on indefinitely as he/she stays with a partner until the romance fades, then moves on to the next partner. If the cheater marries again, the same issues that caused the failure of the previous marriage will re-appear.

12. The cheater may seek counseling, which may eventually assist him/her in building a good relationship with someone else. The cheater will think of their previous marriage in one of two ways:
a. The cheater will always wonder how things could have been with their former spouse had they not sabotaged the relationship, or:
b. The cheater successfully convinces him/herself that their previous marriage was a failure that was not their fault, thus suppressing the guilt for the affair.

The tragic irony, of course, is that it is the affair that destroyed the marriage, and one way or another, the affair itself will burn out. In other words, something that was destined never to last (the affair) destroys something that was intended to last a lifetime (the marriage).

Hiker

You just wrote my EX WW's future. I am going to print this, save it and give it to her at the appropriate time. She will think I am a prophet.

This is most tragic, especially for my DS. We've broken his family, his core.

I find it amazing how you are able to be so analytical, amidst all of this turmoil. I am always grateful to see your thought provoking posts...

Thanks, Silent.

I think you've found, as I have, that one of the keys to relieving your own suffering is by trying to help others.

Hiker, I'm at number 8 about to go to number 9. Dr. Harley told me to sit it out for at least two years. I can't do it. Maybe I'm just a wimp.

Mickey51, you are NOT a wimp! This stuff is painful, and can be compounded by your feeling of humiliation, disrespect, and soooo much more; it takes a strong person to last even one nanosecond past discovery...

Mickey,

Silent's right -- you're not a wimp. There are a lot of things to consider in trying to "wait out the affair." I'm not so sure that it isn't more damaging to try to wait it out, because over that length of time you have actually established a whole new relationship with your spouse that isn't based on romance, affection, or sexual fulfillment because she is getting that from someone else. Suppose the affair ends and she says, "hey, I'm sorry but I don't think of you in romantic terms anymore, but I want to keep you as a friend." Wouldn't that be a sock in the kisser!

As Silent said, it is a credit to your character that you didn't just get up and walk out of the house the minute you found out about the affair.

I feel I've done everything to try to save my marriage; now it's time for me to learn a few lessons from this terrible experience and move on. I've got my son to think of -- I don't want this marriage to be his model.

I'm sure these are all things you've considered as well.

hiker-can you take a minute to read my recent posts on the thread mimi started for me? i'd like your perspective if you have time

thanks
eav

I just posted it.

Steve Harley characterizes some WSs as "chasers," meaning they do all the hard work of pursuing the affair relationship and keeping it going. That is certainly the case with my wife.

I really feel, and I think I am borne out by information I have heard about the OM, that he is a classic womanizer who knows all the right buttons to push with certain types of women. What type of woman is that? At least one characteristic they share is poor self-esteem. I'm sure there are other factors that define the kind of person who falls easily under the romantic "spell" of someone else, but I don't have time to enumerate them all right at the moment.

Of course, the source of the power of the OP's influence is their ability to play the game of intimacy/distance in the relationship. That is to say they know when to allow closeness and when to put a little distance between themselves and the WS to make them want them even more. It is a way to maintain the WS's infatuation for them, and in my opinion it is primarily a psychological game that has little to do with physical appearance or sexual performance, etc.

In fact, it's probably fair to say that Dr. Harville Hendrix comes closest to answering the whys of this phenomenon with his theory of attraction to negative qualities.

Quick question...my husband was involved in a romantic affair--the whole i love you, but not 'in love' with you thing..., the sexual part started 9/20....found out 11/7, ended 11/26...supposedly...what do you mean "inversely proportional to the length of the affair" Am I to assume he's probably still seeing her even though I don't have any signs that he still is?

DesireWisdom,

"Inversely proportional to the length of the affair" means that the chances of marital reconciliation diminish the longer the affair lasts, and conversely, the chances of saving the marriage increase with short-length affairs. This is only a general observation; there will always be exceptions.

Whether your husband is still engaged in his affair is something you will have to find out one way or the other, but here are a few signs you might watch out for (and I'm sure other posters can contribute to this list);

1. He refuses to get counseling.
2. He is obviously keeping secrets from you, such as secret e-mail accounts, changed passwords, intercepted phone or credit card bills.
3. He seems distant.
4. He seems to pick arguments over insignificant issues or:
5. He has episodes where he does something unusually nice for you out of what might be guilt.
6. His daily habits have changed so that there are times that you can't account for his whereabouts.
7. He seems to come up with excuses to get out of making love to you.

He is actually doing #'s 1, 3, and 4. He has changed his daily habits, but I can actually account for more of his time away from work. However, I cannot account for his time during work hours when she can come by his office at any time. She is a student at his workplace and they can meet at any time during the day. He has a private office with no secretary and the campus is huge so meeting during the day is easy for them. (i posted a general story on another thread a few days ago: MB Weekend for Affairs?) He has given me all passwords, but he can easily make a new email account or use his office phone or cell phone (and delete the call on the phone log) to make calls. He didn't seem to have contact with her over the winter break, but now that he is back at work I wonder. I probably should go and check up on him at the office, but it is true that he'll probably get annoyed at me if I do that.

We are registered to go on the MB Weekend this January, but I wonder if it will help... should I make sure the affair is ended...he says he has no reason to lie anymore and if he's seeing her, he'll tell me...is him getting annoyed at my checking up on him just a sign that it isn't over? He says he's trying...and he does seem 'nice' to me...just not the kids (see other post)...

Thanks for your insight, it is helpful...

Not necessarily. Nobody likes to be checked up on. Actually the fact that he is going with you on the MB Weekend is great news.

I think if I were you I would continue to check up on him as discreetly as possible. You don't want him to be annoyed with you, but after all, he has broken your trust.

Dr. Harley will provide some great help to you in this matter.

Good luck.

Interesting comment. Its that distance part that seems to be a weakness for the BS. It sounds a lot like the appeal of the OP is that they could care less whether they are with the WS or not. Whether that is actually true, the WS seems to believe it and dreadfully fear it. What is so appealing about a person who could care less whether they are around you or not.

And the real kicker is that in many cases, the BS can never get the WS to believe they may actually lose them (the BS). Its like the OP just hints at it being over and the WS freaks out, but the BS has to go to plan B, then separated and sometimes even D before they believe it.

It seems that the WS just goes into crisis management. The OP could leave at any moment so better give that more attention, while the BS isn't going anywhere, so no need to deal with that now.

It reminds me a little of when people assume the most expensive thing is the best. Sort of like this OP must be really great if they are so willing to give me up, I have to pay a high price to keep them, so they must be worth it.

I sometimes wonder if the MB approach is a little too controlled or reserved or strategic in dealing with romantic affairs. I wonder if a better approach rather than plan A, B, etc. is to ratchet up the crisis atmosphere in the M. No LB's mind you, but become erratic, unpredictable, a crisis creator rather than being a lighthouse.

rprynne,

I should have clarified my statement to indicate that I was referring to a particular kind of romantic affair; one in which one of the affairees is truly romantically attached while the other is in it for other reasons: sex, ego boost, etc. I didn't mean to imply that all romantic affairs operate under these dynamics, though I would guess that most are unbalanced in that there is almost always one whose love is stronger than the other's.

In a situation where one of the affairees suffers from low self-esteem, the use of distancing by the "stronger" partner causes the "weaker" partner to try to form an even closer attachment. They may even enter a panic mode, a la Fatal Attraction. It can create a desperation in the weaker partner to hold on to the affair because losing the lover would be another crushing blow to his/her already low self-esteem.

Then there is the common human condition of want, which is often increased when the object desired seems to be something you cannot have.

Which is why Plan B sometimes brings the WS back. It forces the decision of one or the other (and why the BS must make it believable.)

This is probably too risky. The WS has already developed a powerful emotional attachment to the OP, creating a crisis atmosphere might just give the WS justifiable reasons for leaving the BS. One objective of Plan A is to take away any true justification for leaving the marriage.

But Dr. Pittman's advice certainly bears repeating:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

my H is definitly the follower...just as he was in our relationship

and i agree that this makes breaking up the A even more difficult

they are like puppets waiting for the next string to be pulled




when i first found out about the A and kicked my H out....told him i wanted a D...he realized that he was going to lose me and he fought hard to keep me which led to our recovery....for the 8 months it took for him to see that the threat was gone...then he started seeing OW again so it was a false recovery

so the threat of losing me made him take action until the threat was over

before they moved in together, my SIL told me that my H explained his continued "cake eating" by saying that the relationship with OW was very on again, off again, and that each time OW broke things off, he would increase his contact with me "just in case things didn't work out with OW"

so i agree that just the threat of losing OW put my H into a panic while he never thought i'd be going anywhere

right now, as long as i don't take the step to file for D, he knows that i'm not going anywhere...not that i think he cares

and OWH is always right up the street living with OW's mother and at least some of their 4 children...i'd say he fears losing her back to her H and that keeps the thrill, the fear, the romance and the A alive and going strong

Sometimes, the WS doesn't even care that they may lose the BS, and even their entire family. Or they believe that all (the WS, the OP and the BS) will 'after a few months' and 'after the dust has settled' be friends together - this way, the WS can continue cake eating.

The OP can use threats of ending the relationship to complete the split between the WS and the BS. In complete ignorance, the BS continues to live as they always have, perhaps confused by the WS's behaviour towards them but having no real idea what is going on, whilst behind the scenes the WS and the OP are involved in high drama - the OP saying the A is over unless the WS leaves the BS for them.

Passion and high drama compared to a dull ignorance - not much of a contest really.

Alph.

Well, again, a person's insecurities can be used against them. Some people have learned this to their advantage; it allows them a certain amount of control by manipulation.

Philanderers are notorious for this because they remain emotionally detached during their affairs. People with low self-esteem and deep insecurities are especially vulnerable to their tactics.

Even some parents use a child's insecurities against them, punishing them by "withholding love" as a means of controlling their behavior.

But you can well imagine that the effect is heightened in affairs. Just like an addictive drug, the affairees want that brain chemical high and if they think the decision to get it might be taken out of their hands they often panic, increasing their desire and passion even higher. So when one of the affairees makes noises about breaking up or even just backing off a little, the other may suffer an ego-driven desire to cling to their lover and make just about any sacrifice to prove their love.

The biggest problem for the BS is the failure to understand the mindset of the WS. To the BS, nothing the WS does seems to make any sense. The BS can't understand why the WS would sacrifice a marriage, their children, their financial health, etc., to pursue the affair. In short, the BS is still thinking in reasonable terms.

But once the WS is in the grip of the affair, all but the most mundane decisions are driven by emotion, not reason. Logic is twisted to fit the emotional wants and desires of the WS.

You might just as well think of the WS as a different person, because as long as he/she is in the throws of the affair that is exactly the case.

Some WSs, being forced to make a decision between the BS and the OP, actually regain enough of their ability to reason during the course of the affair to make the decision to end it. Some don't.

Once the passion fades in the affair most WSs realize the sacrifices were too high a price to pay for the relatively short term thrill. They might attempt to go back to their marital partner at that time, but it isn't unusual for the BS to be beyond reconciliation at that point. And there are always those WSs whose shame and guilt will prevent them from ever going back. A few manage to convince themselves that the affair could only have occurred in a bad marriage, so ending it is just as well. And still fewer actually maintain the affair until it develops into a committed relationship.

Yeah I understand that. It kind of links back to my original question about tactics may be different depending on the nature of the OP and the dynamics of the affair.


I think also sometimes it takes the crisis out of everything leaving the WS with no crisis to manage, which can clear out some of the brain.


Maybe - but plan B is a pretty high risk strategy too. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advising any one to do this, nor am I doing it myself. I'm pretty much on the path I'm on so to speak. I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.


Can't argue with that.


Eav - sorry to hear that. Its an awful thing for someone to say. I've had my share of false recoveries. They really rot. What is your plan now?


I think it is most often the latter. Which is some really foggy thinking.


Thus my musings on the BS adding some crisis to the M.


It may sound odd, but I never had a problem understanding it. I'm not saying I thought it was right, I just could easily understand the WS's thinking.

Yes, it's high risk in terms of marital reconciliation, but not in terms of personal recovery. Many people think the primary objective of Plan B is to bring their spouse back, but Dr. Harley says the real objective is to prevent the betrayed spouse's resentment from building to the point where they lose what love they still have, thereby killing any desire for reconciliation. Dr. Harley is counting on the affair burning out. But as a side benefit, the betrayed spouse gets an opportunity to re-focus his/her life on improving self, rather than suffering the anguish of witnessing their spouse's efforts to pursue their affair from a ringside seat.

I can personally vouch for this. By refusing to interact with my WH (as he was then) I saved myself a lot of heartache.

It's always amazed me how many people don't understand the need for the BS for protect themselves in this way - especially when you have children. I was given so many guilt trips by so-called friends, saying that I should be friends with my ex for the sake of the kids - it would make things so much better for them etc.

Whilst this may be possible in a divorce situation without infidelity, I can't imagine it happens much when the BS is left for the OP. One of the main reasons I initially went into NC with my WH was because the meetings we were having were actually harming the children, because I was quite literally getting ill with grief and pain.

How is this better for the children? Better that there is no contact between parents who can only harm each other than attempting to force some kind of unnatural 'friendship' from the situation.

Alph.

Hiker, you have previously referred to some articles by Pittman (in Psychology Today?), I think. Can you point me at those?

SDG

I can see your point, but my situation seems to be somewhat different. My friends and family are wondering why I'm holding out any hope and think I should just move on. Those closest get it now, but I feel like I constantly need to educate people on how romantic affairs work when I tell them what I'm going through, because most people don't understand the insanity of it.

I know that at some point I can be friendly with my WW, and I think it might actually be easier to just let her go and start doing it now. I am confident that I can go out and find someone else to be with, probably someone who is a better match for me. For the sake of all parties involved (my kids, her, myself, the OMW and her kids), however, I am opting for Plan B, at least for a while.

I could probably have some kind of relationship with my ex, if it wasn't for the OW.

She won't let him discuss anything without her - not even our children. And I refuse to have her near me, and will not reply to correspondence from my ex about our children because she co-signs it.

It is very, very difficult. In the future, I know that I will have to talk to my ex, but only about the children - I have no other reason to communicate with him. But I refuse to discuss our children with the OW.

Alph.

sdguy,

Try this link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/search/search.cgi?q=pittman

Alph,

I agree that it's better for the kids to get away from the offending spouse. Think about it this way: The BS gets stressed out because of the daily reminders that his/her spouse is cheating. Being stressed out can cause the BS to have a lot less patience in dealing with the children. I can see this in myself, and I really have to guard against it.

I don't think anyone who hasn't personally experienced being victimized by an affair can truly comprehend how emotionally devastating it is.

Most people do not even understand what romantic affairs are all about. They automatically assume the marriage must have been bad.

Oh, the people who don't understand the horrors of affairs...I've been faced with them, my sister being one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Not long ago she said, " I can't believe you would force your H to sell his childhood home". Argh, I was pissed!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I explained the sitch, that he could buy this house from beneath me, as it is like slow torture living here, but I will not give up my rights to the life I have grown accustomed to because my WH decides he wants to 'date' others. She gets it now, but that was a rough conversation.

As for the stillness of Plan B, I feel that it is better for my son to have a 'sane' mommy, and the only way for me to achieve that is to separate myself physically and emotionally from WH. It's a godsend for me...as is this forum...

If I could just clarify - my kids have had access to their father since he left, the day after D/day. It's only me who has no contact with him.

Even though he lives with the OW, I think it is important for them to know him - broken families are bad enough, but kids without any fatherly contact do worst of all, I think.

It took me a long time to feel anything less than total devastation knowing that my kids were forming bonds, not only with their father, but with the OW as well. And yes, she is a frightful person in many ways, but she isn't actually unpleasant to my kids.

Now I have accepted it. I have accepted that Ex and the OW are a couple - who will probably marry and form a long-term relationship. I have accepted that the OW is a part of my children's lives. And that she influences them often in ways that I don't approve of (and I can't believe that Ex allows), but I have to let it lie and try to 'make the adjustment' when the kids are with me.


Plan B is like a relaxation/floatation tank, no? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> All that chaos going on outside, but you are sealed inside this protective shell, being kind to yourself, concentrating on making things better for you.

Alph.

Right, Alph. I should have said the kids are better off out of the tense environment that exists when the WS and the BS are together in conflict.

"Private Lies" by Pittman goes into much detail about the different TYPES of affairs. I firmly believe my H is in a romantic affair

Pittman says, as marriage builders does, that many times, by stalling the D, the WS may come to his senses and reconciliation is possible

however, Pittman does add that sometimes in the case of a romantic affair, stalling the D just gives the WS and OW a little extra excitement that keeps the A going strong

any thoughts on this based upon your experiences or readings?

My WH is fully entrenched in a romantic A. I tried to stall as long as I could and our MC tried to talk some sense into WH but it was ineffective. WH tracked me down and served me with D papers at work. Personally, I think he was having a hard time living with his sin and if he just filed for D immediately, it would justify his romantic A. The OW comes before me and he's made that very clear.

Eav,

I've had a lot of time to evaluate a few things regarding the "romantic" type affair, and I have come to some conclusions about it.

First, if a BS, upon discovery of the affair, can fairly look back on their marriage as being a good one, then I think Plan A is an unnecessary hardship on the BS. What is a good marriage? No clear-cut definition is possible because, like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. But it should be relatively free of major blow-ups, disrespect, sexual hang-ups, daily conflicts, etc. If the BS feels that the marriage was a good one, AND if there is evidence that the WS felt the marriage was good prior to the affair (don't bother to ask about this after the affair), then what would be the point of trying to show the WS how good the marriage could be with a Plan A? The marriage was already good. Post-affair, it will only go downhill. WSs rarely allow you to start meeting any unmet emotional needs while in the affair. Instead, the BS gets pushed into a kind of nebulous relationship devoid of affection, the "I'm not in love with you but I still care about you" syndrome. The resentment builds until some kinds of lovebusters are almost unavoidable; these serve to help the WS justify the affair.

Some will argue that Plan A provides a stable environment for the WS to retreat to for security, etc. But I think the security and stability actually contribute to fence-sitting, which is probably why Plan A is rarely successful in forcing an affair to end.

I've come to the conclusion that most folks (in good marriages) facing a cheating spouse involved in a romantic relationship would be better served by going directly to Plan B. Leave or throw the cheater out. Force the cheater to face the consequences immediately. Force them to make a decision to come back to the marriage or continue cheating. In the meantime, the BS should start planning a life apart. After a reasonable amount of time, if the cheater has not returned to the marriage, get a divorce.

Harsh, isn't it? And it can be difficult to implement because of finances and children, not to mention one's emotional investment in the marriage. But I think it would spare one from having to witness their cheating spouse from a front row seat, absorbing disrespect, living in a house with the "elephant" in the room, and an atmosphere that over a period of time must be detrimental to the emotional health of any children.

Let me reiterate that I am talking about very specific circumstances: a good marriage disrupted by a romantic affair. Shakey marriages would likely benefit by a good Plan A.

The veteran MBer Worthatry told me he regretted having run his Plan A too long. Maybe he felt that when a Plan A goes on long enough, it actually re-establishes your relationship with your spouse as something completely different; something akin to platonic, which may never permit a recovery of the romantic aspects of your prior relationship.

Anyway, Pittman, a counselor who has dealt with thousands of couples, advocates this:

“I advise spouse’s who are waiting for their mate’s romance to end: don’t try to out-romance a romantic. Don’t bother to arouse jealousy. Don’t try to get your partner’s attention, increase your partner’s guilt, or threaten some kind of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time.”

I can't disagree with that.

Totally agree Hiker. Amazing people even think that is a valid excuse until it happens to them.

deleted by eav

Eav - that could be after the divorce they come to their senses.

Most affairs end in 2 years - how long has your WH's been going on?

deleted by eav

and yes, Pittman is saying that sometimes in a romantic affair, as long as the D hasn't occurred, the affair partners don't face the reality and the distruction of the A...and that afterwards, it comes crashing down upon them right after the D and the A partners marraige

OK Eav - you know the song "The Gambler"?

Ya gotta know when to hold em
Know when to fold em

something something something

KNOW WHEN TO RUN.....

i'm not getting what you mean

OK - a 5 year affair - give or take? I recommend divorce. Who knows he may then want to reconcile but it's been more than 2 years - the dates don't make sense in your post - is actually a 5 year affair?

I doubt he will be coming back any time soon. He may be in that 3%.

sorry if it sounded otherwise, my question wasn't asking if I should resort to divorce in the hopes that it would wake up my H....i was just wondering if my stalling might be adding to the thrill of the A...if anyone has head of this or experienced it as Pittman has said

i am not even considering divorce and wouldn't ask if anyone thought that i should.....i will give up on my M onlywhen/if my h filees and gets a D or IF my heart ever tells me that i've waited long enough

well that is only 6 months now isn't it. Prepare for divorce at that time but I would be done.

(((Eav)))

deleted by eav

ah -yes indeed we did.

Eav you are 38. You have to look to your future. Does the prospect of divorce terrify you?

This probably isn't helping you.

(((Eav)))

You see, Eav.

I told you Big hasn't gotten to know you.

Big, it's long been known that Eav and I do not like the D word...

the prospect of spending the rest of my life without the love of my life scares me to death as i look at what i would miss.

i'm pretty much living the life of a divorced person already kahuna.

i can take care of myself.(i can even remodel a bathroom AND open my pool on my own) I have a job that i love. i make a good living and i have everything in life that i would wish for...being raised on welfare, i've come a longway.

if you want to know alot about "who I am"

here is a post that i just wrote on another thread

Mimi - not real fond of the D word myself you know. But I don't let that cloud my judgement.

Eav - I wish you the best. I pray you are successful in saving your marriage.

thanks Kahuna

i can use lots of prayers

{{{eav}}}

You've had quite a night of it. I don't post much anymore, but I am always checking up on your sitch.

I think your dedication to your marriage is amazing. Peace to you.

Alph.

Eav,

As you see above, I did not set any timeline for divorce. I merely said that after a "reasonable" time if the WS has not made any attempts to return to the marriage, then divorce may be the best choice. "Reasonable" is something one can only decide for himself.

I think you will see that Dr. Harley says pretty much the same thing in another way. He advocates sticking to the plan as long as two years from discovery, then it may be time for a divorce.

With regard to your husband, it sounds as though is he very needy. Maybe everything you say is true, but it reads to me like you are accepting too much of the blame for his affair.

As for him being the "love of [your] life," I have never believed there is just one "right" person out there for each of us. In fact, if you really believe in MB, under the right conditions you could fall in love with anybody and they with you.

Here is a an excerpt from an article by Susan Peabody:

Love addiction is an unhealthy attachment (conscious or unconscious) to either a person, relationship or romance. Here are some examples:

(1) Obsessed love addicts experience attachment by way of secret fantasies (unrequited love) or what I call a hyper-involvement with another person: excessive thoughts, phone calls, or requests to get together starting early in the relationship. The underlying motivation for this attachment is infatuation or love, but unfortunately it is a toxic form of love stemming from neediness and low self-esteem.

(2) Relationship addicts cling to the notion of connectedness with someone in order to avoid loneliness or the feeling of being unlovable which they associate with being single. Relationship addicts may hook up with someone they don't even like, much less love, just to be in a relationship. Once in a relationship, these love addicts hold on for dear life even if it means suffering loneliness within the relationship. Sometimes relationship addicts even accept abuse rather than let go.

(3) Romance addicts are in love with romance, i.e. euphoria, intimate rendezvous, passionate sex, erotic fantasies, etc. They do not obsess over one person except for short intervals. To romance addicts the objects of their affection are interchangeable. Anyone they are attracted to is who they want to be with; the more partners the better. Romance addicts are high on the chemistry of love, wherever they find it, and they move on as soon as the romance wanes.

(4) Codependent love addicts are people who have an overwhelming need to take care of someone else no matter what the price. These love addicts are so sensitive to the caretaking compulsion that they even try to protect their partners from any negative feelings normal to the human experience: feelings such as sadness, disappointment or anger. Codependents try to protect their partners from such feelings by making extraordinary sacrifices. For instance, codependent love addicts will give their partner money earmarked for the rent in order to prevent them from experiencing the disappointment of not getting what they want. Or they will defer to their partners even when they disagree just so their mate will not have to experience anger. Not that codependents aren't trying to protect their own feelings as well. Most codependent behavior is geared toward reducing the anxiety codependents feel when their partners are not happy. (An unhappy partner might leave.)

(5) Narcissistic love addicts are self-centered, controlling, possessive, demanding and even have illusions of grandeur or the feeling that they are perfect; without human flaws. On the outside these love addicts appear distant and detached. They may even have affairs with other people. But don't be fooled. Narcissistic love addicts are still addicted to their partners. It is just that their obsession only manifests itself when the person they are attached to cannot be controlled and/or considers ending the relationship.

I hardly need to point out that betrayed spouses can suffer from these same kinds of unhealthy attachments.

Hi everybody,

I also think that my WS is in a romantic affair...but it seems to be a combination of sorts.....from the description above..a mix of all of them....

...would like your take on my situation.

Here's hopefully a 'short' summary:

....it's been 2 yrs since D-day (dec 2004)...PA had only been going on for about 3 months at the time I found out....(they work together, hard to say how long EA had been going on!)

...so, when I discovered the A... the 'high' was really 'high'.....it had consisted of a series of VERY secretive meetings for SF....'nobody' was to find out....as both WS and OP were in a long-term R and neither had initially intended to leave their spouses!!??.....I do think the 'forbidden' element of the meetings heightened the thrill of it all.... WS was big on 'compartmentalizing'....

...until I found out....

...although WS initially said he would end it....they work together; OP was heartbroken and within weeks came clean with her spouse and decided to end 27-yr R (....willing to sacrifice her M for WS???...as proof of her 'love'??? yeaks!); as A was exposed not even at its 'height', WS still seeing WS as 'soulmate', and WS could not imagine NOT seeing her....(...to deal with M recovery with me!) ....and did he feel obliged to do the same as OP to prove his love for her!!?? ....I certainly wouldn't call destroying families as proof of love!

....anyway....not surprisingly, I found WS to be totally in fantasyland...saw A and himself and OW as Romeo and Juliette, and would not be kept apart by 'society'.... what???.....(I should have asked when he planned on killing himself...never mind that they were adolescents!)..... thought all that needed to happen was for him to 'move out'...his way of 'respecting me'... not intending to D me....continue raising boys with me and remain co-owners of financial investments ....come and go as he pleased from our 'home'....'help' each other.... share get-togethers and activities.....share cottage..... (unfortunately, being in an 'artistic' circle..'open relationships' exist and WS used 'acquaintances' as models.... although clearly it was never a lifestyle that WE ever considered.... but it suited WS to think so NOW!)

...however, even 2 yrs after D-day.....and 1 and 1/2 yrs after 'moving out'....WS is choosing NOT to live with OW (I think it's his idea of keeping the passion alive...or at least as long as possible!).... is choosing NOT to legalize separation, let alone D me.... is continually attempting to have me break PLAN B.... and waiting for me to get over the 'pain and loss' so we can go ahead with friendly 'co-parenting' ...DS has also reported WS 'bursting into tears' while just sitting alone at the table.....

...then I find out that on New Yrs Day....WS had called up my parents wanting 'news', asking about my brother, telling them he loved them and ended conversation crying.....

What????

...in talking to my psychologist SIL, her explanation is that WS, by wanting to NOW legitimize more and more his R with OW, by introducing her over the holidays to his family and some family friends....is actually allowing 'reality' to kick in more and more.... and so....his 'losses' are also more and more evident! ...OUCH!

....and how about WS convincing 'talk' that he is 'sure' of his choices??.....SIL told me that most likely I am seeing WS 'defensive mode'... only allowed to see what he wants me to see and THINK!

... I was very surprised....WSs can remain in the fog for a long time!

...throughout the whole time, my message to WS has consistently been: ....ready to meet with you and discuss anything....when OW is out of the picture....when choices clearly demonstrate that ME and family are a priority in his life...and is willing to committ to R and family.....

...and although I have been saying this from the very beginning...it's only 2 yrs after D-day that I think it is actually starting to 'kick in' in WS's head that I am dead serious about not seeing HIM, otherwise!

So...I do agree with Dr. Harley....long-term... it may very well be the BS that is a threat to M recovery.....as some WS take soooo long to wake up.....the BS has had the time to 'move on'... or is no longer willing to 'risk' recovery....

....because the 'reality' of an A....is that WS has in fact really 'complicated' his life even more...rather than making it easier or more effortless!

My WS is in late 50's....I do believe it's a combination of MLC...hormonal changes...tendencies to be depressed and impulsive...it all overwhelmed him...and so made very poor choices long-term!

...in the meantime....the best a BS can do....is remove oneself from the chaos that WS is choosing to live....PLAN B is a real lifesaver!

...for now I am nowhere near choosing a D...unless of course WS files! ...as I am too busy 'rebuilding' my life...it's going to be a while to get over this!

Well, I think you are doing what little can be done, particularly if you have separated yourself from the day-to-day rollercoaster of dealing with your WS.

It sounds like he can't bring himself to stop the affair, nor does he want to lose you completely.

Your choices would seem to be:

1. Continue on as you are until the affair burns out.
2. Take more severe action to try to force a decision on his part one way or the other.
3. End the relationship with him and don't look back.

Following choice #1 requires a degree of faith that the affair will eventually end on its own. The odds are in your favor here, but if it does not, will you look back later and say that you wasted years waiting for him to come to his senses?

Choice #2 in your case essentially means divorce, since you are already in Plan B. Although you don't want to consider that option at this time, it may just be the key to jogging your WS out of his fantasy or forcing him to seek a closer relationship with the OP, which could strain that relationship. Remember, divorced people do sometimes re-marry each other.

In choice #3 you will have concluded that there is no saving the marriage, or that there are limits to how much you will do or accept to save it. Basically, you close the door on this part of your life and open a new one.

Over a period of time the right decision will become clearer to you, but it should not be based on the fear that you will never find someone you can love as much, or who will love you equally.

Hiker, thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post....



Yes....I do agree...with PLAN B, I have gotten off the day-to-day roller-coaster of dealing with a WS...and life is soooo much better.... and WS's choices....particularly choosing not to live with OP....and wanting to do friendly co-parenting with me....definitely seems like he wants to remain....a cake-eater....and NOT have to choose!



...even if A were to end...no certainty that WS would want to 'recover' M.....fear of failure?? rejection?? too much effort??....and to be honest...I really don't know if at 'that time'...the longer this goes on...I MAY want to risk recovery....

In the meantime...I can't say I feel like I am 'wasting' years waiting... I am working hard at living my life...on my OWN...and appreciating being on my OWN..... AS IF WS will not be back....can't say interest in another R is at the top of my list right now... so the problem of 'wasting time' waiting is not an issue...rigth now!

....although I am starting to wonder if I would feel differently if the separation were legalized or D happened! ....because I ACT as if I AM married...but without a S.....so....

...it's the famous question...which comes first....the egg or the chicken?



For me Hiker....#2 & #3 really go together....were I to go through the process of a D....it would not be as a means to force 'reality' in fantasyland...although you are right, it is what it might take....I only am prepared to do that with PLAN B.... plan D for me would mean #3....

...however..even #3 cannot be 'total'...as we have our 2 boys in 'common'....



...that's how PLAN B happened.....even though it was a hard decision, I just 'knew' that it was the only way to go....to get out of 'toxic' relationship with a WS....

...finding someone else?....well....at best...it will be... different...because 'sharing' the bond of having children with someone is incomparable...particularly as I do not intend to have any more children.....

At this time...I am trying to be STILL....and not let the chaos around me affect me tooo much...and then....we'll see!

I am sorry Hiker..I am not familiar with your situation...and would like to know how you are doing....I suspect your experience involves(ed) a romantic affair seeing your keen interest in that....

...do you have your own thread, and can you direct me to it?

Luna,

Your approach to all this seems very sensible to me.

I do think the fact that he is obviously still attached to you is evidence that your marriage would be recoverable if the affair ends, as opposed to him not coming back to you.

Sometimes I wonder if a wayward spouse actually wants the betrayed spouse to file for divorce so that they don't have to make that decision, and consequently can derive some comfort by telling him/herself that "hey, I'm not the one who wanted a divorce."

I don't have a thread with my story. It's kind of strewn over several threads. I'll take the time to tell you more later, but things are not good.

Luna,

I'm amazed at your strength. I'm only two weeks into a Plan B, and I can't imagine two years of "being married without a spouse." It's just amazing to see that the fog can go on that long, but I guess there are some people who never come out of it.

SDG

Luna has always been an inspiration to me, and remains so, even though I wasn't able to save my marriage.


Amazing how the WS thinks that the BS should want to remain married when they are left for someone else. Divorce? How unreasonable! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Alph.

Hi Hiker,


Actually....even with PLAN B....WS has the excuse that ME, BS, is choosing NOT to see or speak to him, not even for the sake of boys....and probably not getting much sympathy... because it begs the next question: how come?....uhmmmm...'maybe because I cheated on her' DUH!

Fortunately...I can read right through his 'manipulative ways'..... which just don't 'stick'....thanks to the distance and perspective I have gained by going into PLAN B...

I just looooove PLAN B......I feel very empowered.... and for obvious reasons....WS is in the opposite side of the spectrum....can't even get me to TALK to him!

fantasyland vs. reality....

...the battle goes on!



I am sorry to hear that Hiker....

Hi SDG,



Actually....even though it's been 2 yrs from D-day.... sometimes it still feels like it was just yesterday.... which I guess supports the 'theory' of relativity...LOL!

....that's why Romantic Affairs are the most difficult to deal with.... the fog takes a long time to lift...if it ever does at all! ...because if and when it does.... the fall is hard and long!

Hi Alph....hat off to you, too!

Hey everybody,

Geez! So much to read here...so little time. I'm speed reading at this point.

Luna, I find your stamina amazing. I feel that I will be filing in the summer. I'm not doing it to bring WH back; I am going to do it, as I feel that I cannot truly get on with my life without the D. It is my own shortcoming, and i'm trying to hold back, I just don't think I can. I am weak and want some closure to this death of my M. I'm strong, but not invincible. I don't have much fight left, but to remain, silent and still, in Plan B. I don't know how much longer I can go on watching my WH go from woman to woman searching for what he had with me. It's a [email]d@mned[/email] shame. Lousygolfer had it right. If replacing me was so easy, why has it taken a total of 3 women so far to do it. Maybe the third time is the charm. I dunno, I'm just tired of taking it to heart.

Again, you amaze me with your strength, and not to mention patience. I feel as though I am being disrespected and cast aside, as if he can return at any time. I need to separate myself from his notions; I feel D is the one true way to do this. I cannot harbor him and his delusions anymore.

Just wanted to know if any one out there has had to deal with this thing I struggle with almost daily. I want to go kick the crap out of the OM for destroying my family. Yes, I know it takes two, but he is a serial cheater. He knows what he is doing. My wife just doesn't get that. She thinks she is in love and can't see what just about everyone else knows -- the guy is dogsh**.

I can't save my marriage but I could sure teach him a lesson and maybe spare somebody else some grief. The only thing stopping me is that I don't want to give my wife ammunition to win custody of my kids.

Have any of you dealt with this?

Mickey,

I'm dealing with it today, I discovered my WW was having an EA with her co-worker on Friday. I exposed and confronted on Saturday. Today is Sunday, and this morning I was laying in bed thinking of how the OM knew I was married and knew me.

My only recommendation is to let him OM know in a way which makes you the bigger person. I am not going to talk to him face to face, that could very well go badly. I don't recommend doing that - ever - to anyone. Calling will either get you hung up on or worse: you will hear things and say things you don't want to. It could be recorded in certain states. Write him a note to tell him the truth: You love your spouse, you are trying to save your marriage, and you want him to know that. That's my plan, be the bigger man. The better man. WW may think she is with the better man, know that you are exactly that by your actions (regardless of your past, you have changed the moment you discovered - you will never be the same)

Thanks, Jayban. I did call him a while ago and he just lied and said nothing was going on long after my wife had admitted the affair. I said the things you mentioned. I accomplished nothing. If I would have found out right when the affair started I would have stopped it by scaring him off.

Mickey have been dealing with it for 7 months

Its pointless to worry about your WW and the OM, get your self strong and be there for you kids

Mickey,

I can definitely identify with that. In fact, the OM in my case lied long after the facts were clear. I tried reasoning with him like Jayban mentioned. Told him he was ripping my family apart and that my five-year-old son wants his mommie and daddy to stay together. His reply: "That's your problem."

If we had been face to face instead of on the phone I would probably be in jail right now. I wrote to the jerk's wife to offer her evidence of the cheating and the jerk threatened to bring some friends down and "beat the sh** out of me." My reply? "You know where I live. I'll be waiting."

I was as mad that night as I have ever been in my life. But I'm in the same position as you. I don't dare get into trouble if I intend to get physical custody of my son. That is more important than taking out my anger on this lying a**hole.

I trust that eventually my anger will subside. Yours will too.

*bump*

For Bobolina

bump for jamesus

bump the original

*bump*

Read this whole thread. There are some great posts by Marsh in here on what Fog feels like--page 8 (@ 25 posts per page) and beyond--that I found very helpful.

[quote=vikingruler]I honestly believe this site lower's that fact for those who attend and try and work things out.... I did read somewhere's that for those that are disposed to suicide it would be after all the attention is gone and it would be an act of last desperation. I think I also read that most suicides are for the attention not the ending act.... to bad you can't go back and ask the ones that did if they really meant to do it..

i am actually a lurker. but i was reading this thread and read this post back on page 13. thats all ive gotten to. i tried to commit suicide last year, 2 mos. after d day. ill start a post w my story soon. but in response to this i wanted to say that i actually wanted to die and get my WH attention that way. to show him how much he truly destroyed me. I wrote suicide notes and all. but before i drifted off from taking over 200 pills(small ones). I got a picture in my mind of my 7 YO son going to school telling his teacher and friends his mom was dead. I actually drifted out of my car and found someone in a remote area and told them to call 911. I then passed out. They saved me, god saved me.
It was before i found this website. before i did it i actually never had this thought in my brain. I actually thought that my son would be better off since my husband convinced me (wittingly or unwittingly) that i was unlovable. i figured him and OW could live w my son in heavenly bliss. I was thrown away like trash. This website helped me a lot thru the past year. I felt like I was so alone. I cant figure out how to do paragraphs, sorry.

I TRULY FELT THE SAME WAY.. I believed that if I would kill myself it would shake him up and the old H would come home and be a dad to his children, because my kids needed him more than me.

There is scripture, Jeremiah 29:11 I believe where G-d says he has a plan for you. He knows the beginning and he knows the end.

I FELT THE SAME WAY.

I'm so glad you are here, I'm so glad you lurked and I'm so glad you haven't given up. We are here for you. I can't express, explain or convey how I felt so similarly to you.

WH in my life threw me away like trash, I couldn't believe it.

You aren't CRAZY. You are so special and you will get through this. Please post your story and become part of us and know that you can make it, and G-d has a plan in your life.

thank you queeniesnewlife. You dont know how much you have helped me thru this. and i am sure ther are many more lurkers out there that you have unknowingly helped thru this horror.
I cant post more now but i will post my story later.

Thank you for this.

It is my hope to finally and truly give to those who need it because it was so freely given to me. I didn't believe I could come to this place. I truly truly didn't. But I am, and so shall you on whatever path you take.

We are here and look forward to reading your post.

{{{{{{{{{{{Still}}}}}}}}}}}}

[Thanks to all...this thread is fabulous]

XXXXXXX,

I said and wrote the same things to my WW/xWW a gazillion times over the last 2+ years...with the same predictable futility. Trying to out-romance or compete with a romantic affair (esp. when the WS blames the BS for the marital unhappiness that preceded it) is akin to trying to extinguish a raging forest fire with a squirt gun. That's why Drs. Pittman & Harley advise not expending too much energy on trying to convince or woo a WS back.

Undoubtedly, there is a tremendous amount of resistance and stubbornness in most WS even after the "in love" euphoria inevitably wears off. They have sacrificed so much, told so many lies, & often D'd the BS by then. Some have even married their co-adulterous affair partner who also D'd his/her spouse as well (as my xWW did). For them to "return" would be an ego-trashing admission of error and failure and immorality. And they would then have to face, even in the most receptive circumstances, a BS and family who is hurt, resentful, and has lost all respect for them. My guess is that many WS who have gone this far off the deep end will hang on till the bitter end and even then be too prideful to do anything more than slink off into the shadows and find someone new...

I had the same experience with "exposure"...it was utterly useless and ineffective.

1) I was the "last one" to know or suspect anything (that BS fog thing)

2) My WW had already manipulated and lied all persuadable/naive parties into believing that I was at fault and her whitewashed version of the A was accurate and she was the "innocent victim".

3) The best I got was some mild sympathy followed by other's perception that I was being "irrational", "harrassing", and "accusatory" for bothering them. Most of her friends/family/co-workers simply accepted the status quo and turned away from me.

HopeandPray,

Wow, I finally (regretably) met a man who has a WW story commensurate in sheer Jerry Springer-esque, "WTF???" folly with my own. I'm so sorry...

My xWW affaired (and soon married) with a man 17 years older, short, beer-belly'd, and cheating himself on his then-3rd-wife. His past includes barely making it out of high school, a dishonorable military discharge for AWOL, multiple failed business ventures, (now) 3 divorces all because of HIS infidelities, an abandoned eldest son who will never speak to him again, jail time for non-payment of support, and a history of social-climbing via romance as a means of rectifying massive money mis-management.

Presently, his 2nd son receives almost no attention from either one of them and his 3rd son (all via different women) HATES them both and has been similarly abandoned emotionally and financially (behind again on child support--gee, go figure!). Since he is a contractor, I imagine he is severely under-employed at present.

He and my xWW have virually nothing in common in terms of values and principles and interests:

She is "a Christian"; he is completely a-religious and non-spiritual.
She is an active hiker, biker, and skier; he hates the outdoors and the cold/snow.
She wants a close-knit family (we had no kids thankfully); he is a "father-in-name-only" type
...and on and on....
The only commonalities in their R are that they like dogs and hang out at the same nightclub owned by their employer (they met at work).

Remarkably, my xWW has dragged him off to church, hikes/rides, and skiing--it seems like she is desperately trying to TURN HIM INTO ME!

I know that Dr. Pittman writes about how romantic affairs often take place with someone totally unlike the WS (and the BS) and those crazy differences serve to heighten the addiction. Even so, it's truly amazing and baffling to watch such a self-destructive, depraved, and completely disastrous spectical voluntarily take place!

In the early-'90s a prominent women's magazine (I think it was "Ladies Home Journal" or "Woman's Day") did a survey of their long-term subscribers--the results shocked them and caused a change in their editorial advice column policy regarding female questioners who were writing in and considering divorce.

They found that after 3 years post-voluntary-wife-chosen-divorce (remember women initiate/file for ~70% of divorces in the U.S.), a whopping 85% of the now-divorced women REGRETTED their decision and would CHOOSE to "work things out" with their xH's if they had it do over again.

This (admittedly non-scientific) sampling included a large number of female subscribers who wrote in to the magazine's advice column describing how their "marriage was dead" and that they "had fallen in love with another man who made them much happier."

Based on these startling and very unexpected results, the magazine re-tooled their default advice column policy away from (previously) recommending "following your heart" to aggressively advocating for reconciling the existing marriage in all but the most extreme cases.

Food for thought....

Very interesting...

I have thought about this a great deal to understand what might be going on in the heads of my xWW and her OM.

OM:
I have had extensive discussions with his xBW (#3!) and think I have a handle on him psychologically despite not knowing him at all personally. He fits the protoype of what Dr. Pittman calls a romantic philanderer. A philanderer is usually, though not always, a male who has little regard for the feelings of others and an enormously selfish sense of entitlement when it comes to his romantic needs/desires. He thinks of marriage and commitment as mere temporary and conditional social arrangements...conditional on how well it suits HIM at the time. It becomes almost an ego-necessity for him eventually cheat; the only reason he stays "faithful" for a while is because there is "nothing better" in immediate view. The philanderer is not capable of true love but can indeed temporarily "fall in love" (hence the RP term) long enough to marry, father children (usually done to entrap the unsuspecting female into being his supplicant), and get his social/financial/sexual needs assuaged for the time being. The specific OM in my case fits this description perfectly. He has betrayed & left 3 marriages (so far...and counting) and undoubtedly has had numerous undetected trysts all the way. He even brazenly told his kids that "she (my xWW) is here for ME!" when questioned. This type of person rarely feels much in the way of guilt towards their BWs/kids other than superficial regret at the financial/social setback. Although he lied to his then-BW for a few months (not because he felt bad but because he didn't want the monetary/social loss), he eventually came clean and told the truth to her. That is his one, tiny element of nobility in all this.

xWW:
This quote struck me -- "The power of self-deception is often proportional to the guilt one would be forced to endure without it." This fits my xWW perfectly. She is a classic pure romantic affairee--someone for whom this is the first and only time of infidelity and someone who truly does value commitment and morals. The guilt of these RA's must be immense. They know and believe what they are doing is wrong and must go to tremendous lengths to rationalize, scapegoat, blameshift, deny, conceal, and justify it to themselves and others. They are people that previously would never have condoned an A by people they know and would be devastated in their current or former spouse had done it to them. It seems to me that because the guilt they would otherwise feel is so overwhelming, the necessary self-deception must be so great as to severly limit or even preclude an honest admission to the BS. This fits with my experience...my xWW was an otherwise classy, upright, honorable person who has done something so dishonorable and so distasteful that the only way she can live with herself is to implausibly deny it even in the face of undeniable evidence. Ironically, in contrast to her POSOM, she has NEVER admitted anything to me. She still sticks to the farcical story that her and OM were "only friends" and did not have "a relationship" until AFTER she decided we were done and filed for D against me. That, of course, is still adultery even in the most generous of readings, but is also laughably and demonstrably untrue--they were EA'ing (and probably sexually active) with each other AT LEAST 9 months prior. Truly a masterpiece of self-deception...she actually believes that denying it makes it all "not real".


I wish I had not been so naive and had hired a PI...

This is a great thought (I am learning so much on this thread about how non-unique my situation is/was...thank you all).

My (then) WW -- and I foolishly didn't know she was in an A at the time -- and I were in MC during late '06 while we were separated and she was "deciding" if she wanted to reconcile or D. I was stunned to learn from the C that she had for a long time felt "inferior & intimidated to talk" to me (she made a very poor effort to communicate what she had been feeling about the M even prior to the OM being in the picture) and "had a hard time accepting that someone like (me) would be interested in her". This despite the fact that I had fallen HOH for her in 2 dates originally, had told her my feelings for her very early on, and remained utterly loyal and faithful to her during 2 yrs. of dating/engagement and over a decade of marriage--truly amazing!

This was reinforced again recently when she called me over this past summer (her 1st spontaneous contact in over a year). She (now my xWW) said "I tried so hard for years to impress you because I was terrified that you were going to leave me!" I listened in stunned silence shaking my head and then disbelievingly responded "I was utterly devoted to you from our 2nd date onward and never wavered; I would NEVER have abandoned you! Where did you get that idea from?" No answer...

All of this could have been avoided by simply talking openly and tenderly -- what a stupid waste, huh?

Mimi & Hope:

You are both entirely correct.

Mimi, you described perfectly the anatomy of how a RA begins and takes hold...it starts innocently with each "next step" being initially so subtle. Once those powerful "feelings" get going, then come the rationalizations that allow the WS to venture into ever more dangerous and inappropriate territory (lying & concealing to spend more time together, touching, kissing, and ultimately sex).

Hope, you are also completely correct as well in describing each of those steps as a morally-compromising CHOICE made by the WS. The WS COULD:
1) Stop and go NO FURTHER along the road
2) Cut off contact w/o explanation
3) Tell the OP that "this is wrong" for them
4) Tell the BS (or soon-to-be-BS) that "I am having interactions and feelings for OP that I know I shouldn't indulge"

Etc., etc... Ironically, my xWW did some legitimate business with a guy several years prior to our problems in which this very situation came up. Not unlike the current OM she ended up having a RA with a few later, he was considerably older and married with kids. This guy started pursuing her on the phone and in person telling her that "he wanted her" and "was falling for her." To her credit at the time, she recognized it, firmly told him to STOP, told him that she had told me, and warned him that she would call his wife if there was one more romantic suggestion.

I wonder by comparison where those boundaries and standards went a few years later when she indulged that EXACT SAME scenario with the OM -- who was and is a far worse "catch" than the original married guy. I asked my xWW that once specifically...she never answered me back.

I have read Michelle Wiener-Davis ("Divorce Remedy") and been on her website (divorcebusting.com) many times. They have a discussion forum just like this one.

She has some rec's and policies that jive with MB and some that do not. For instance, she does recommend the "LRT" (Last Resort Technique) in many cases...this is basically Plan B in that it calls for cessation of all contact with the departing spouse--which she calls the WAS (walk-away spouse). The "180" and "GAL" (get a life) she advocates is about "doing something different", "improving yourself", and not appearing needy & desperate to the WAS. It is by and large an expansive, long-term Plan A to meet your spouse's ENs and make yourself appear "more attractive" to them in the process.

The most obvious difference in her approach is with the issue of infidelity/affairs. DR/DB place MUCH less emphasis on the role of an A (whether known or not) in the departing spouse's motivation. In fact, she recommends NOT snooping, NOT trying to find out, NOT exposing, and NOT concerning yourself with possibilty on the grounds that "there is not anything you can do about it anyway and anything that smacks of 'control' will only push the WAS away more."

We have discussed here situations in which finding out & exposure have been helpful, even decisive, and situations in which it was useless and maybe even counter-productive. It seems to me that 'seek & expose' is much more effective when:
1) The A is relatively early and new
2) There are family/friends of the WS who have substantial influence
3) They haven't already been co-apted by the WS's deceptions and rationalizations
4) The WS is threatened by exposure (loss of job, social contacts, potential child custody issues, etc.)

In the absence of the above factors, I think exposure (which is trying to deal the A an artificially rapid death) probably does not help much and only makes the BS look vindictive and accusatory. At this point, however, it probably doesn't really hurt that much either as the WS's initial defensive anger will subside and nothing will change until the A dies a natural death anyway.

All in all, I have researched both and strongly feel that the MB way is superior in the vast majority of cases (in fact, I wish I had found this site a long time ago -- well before I started the DR/DB approach). I have found MWD's general view to be VERY unrealistic and naive with regard to the likelihood of an A being ongoing and the BS's chances of being able to 'out-compete' it.

In talking to many, many people--both men and women, here and in 'real life'--on both sides of the WS/BS fence, this is what I have learned:

1) Not to be paranoid, but if you have realistic concerns that your spouse may be having an A, they VERY LIKELY ARE.
2) If your S separates from you, talks about it, or mentions D, they are almost always having at least an EA on the side.
3) This is especially true of female affairees--wives rarely abandon husbands unless they have another "safe" male harbor to meet their ENs. Battered women's shelters are FULL of women who have been severly physically abused yet still refuse to permanently leave their abusers.
4) There is virtually no limit to how much a WS will lie, conceal, evade, rationalize, and deny when an RA is ongoing. So, don't take their word for it...no matter how adamant they are or how much you want to believe them.
5) A WS will almost NEVER admit to an ongoing A unless 'caught in the act' or presented with overwhelming evidence. Some will deny it ("we are just friends" or "it was a business lunch") even if you have photos of them walking arm-in-arm with their OP into a hotel at noon.
6) Even the most previously trustworthy, devoted, and faithful spouses are not exempt. Strong moral values, religious upbringing, and "having too much to lose" are NOT protective.
7) In the vast majority of divorces, infidelity is involved. Few marriages truly end because "it just didn't work out", "we fell out of love" or there were financial problems, different lifestyles, 'irreconcilable differences', etc.

Bump

bump

And bump again. Reading Hiker's write up really helped me just now....