Hello All,

A lot of you here may not know my whole story as I have been a long time poster on the emotional needs board. I have posted there for over two years. I tried to post in this section a couple of months ago and did not get it really going. I have decided to move to this board as I have seen many more posters in a similar situation to myself post here with advice from people who have actually managed to have MB work for them. I pray some of you good people are still around and willing to take on one more person.

I won't bore you with all my long posts from the EN board and will try to offer the links if asked. In summary, my M has been in trouble for quite a while. Our intimacy was my first sign. It had been dwindling for years and finally it has been almost 2.5 years since the last intimate moment.

I have been speaking with Steve Harley once a week starting this last May and he offers me good advice. However, as I take this next step, I am going to need advice more than once a week. I also feel getting other's opinions (especially those who have been through what I am about to embark on).

I give a short summary. This past April, my W went away on a trip to Phoenix by herself to meet up with family (including her dad and step mom) for a family wedding. I stayed home with our 6 year old S. When W got back from this trip, she told me out of the blue that she needed time to think about our M and that she was not in love with me. She actually said the common phrase, "I love you, but I am not in love with you." Now, I asked at the time if there was anyone else. She became irrate with me for asking.

After a month of pins and needles, I end up near her cell phone by myself and it rings. I went to grab it to bring it to her because I knew she was awaiting a phone call from her sister. Turns out it was a text message from some guy in Phoenix which said, "In your eyes by Peter Gabriel was playing in my patrol car. Who do you think I am thinking of right now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />" That night I confronted my W and she told me it was "Shawn." Shawn is a guy my W had dated for 7 years starting from when she was a junior in high school. They broke up and she dated on and off for 6 years with Shawn chasing her once in a while the whole time. Then I met my W 6 years after they had officially gone out. In fact, the first weekend W and I began talking, this Shawn had appeared at her apartment to "try again." W had told him that she had met someone else and that it was too late. Then for 7 years we had been together. Finally, this Shawn enters the picture again this past April.

As I dug, I found that W and Shawn had been on the phone 3-4 times a day and hours during the night. W started doing very suspicious things like planning trips to girlfriends and ending up staying in a hotel room near where Shawn's family lives. She lied and hid these hotel charges as best she could, but I found out. She even came home with a love note on hotel stationery which said, "I (picture of a heart) U lots, lots, lots." When I found this she told me it was a joke her sister had done because her and her sister were talking about how I was such a jealous person and would probably go through her stuff so they planted it. I did not find this funny.

W could not even say, "Happy Fathers Day" to me let alone give me a card. I went out for lunch with my S on my own. For my B-day, she could not get me a card either. She got me a card from S and socks and underwear. However, I find a love card from the heart with pre-written words in it that describes "how we are miles apart right now...... know one can see through my mask of smiles.......you are in my every though..... I can't wait until we are together again and feel your loving arms around me." I also found that my W had the movie the "Notebook." My W has not really been interested in romantic movies our whole relationship. She has kept this movie put away upstairs in her office. This movie parallels her and Shawn and I believe helps her to build up her fantasy world.

After our anniversary on July 27, there was a family wedding on my W's side and she had lead me to believe that we both may go to it. By May I had been dropped off all the invite lists from her family, B-day parties, weddings etc... This wedding was a few days after our anniversary. We had a really great anniversary and it was like our first date. I even prepared a hot bath with music, candles, rose petals, champagne and a card. This shocked her and she appreciated it. Then she did not want me to go to the wedding a few days later. Turns out, she had planned to go down to Shawn's family's house and stay the night. Shawn was not there and he lives in Phoenix. Apparently, W used to live in this house for a couple of years and was the daughter Shawn's mom never had. W successfully integrated herself into this family and was talking with Shawn's brother and mother on a regular basis. This continues and kills me. W does not understand what is wrong with me because she is just taliking to close and dear friends of hers. She feels I am being controling and something is wrong with me because of my being irritated with all of this.

Last Thursday, my W actually participated in a phone call with Steve and I. This took 4 months to get her to do this. While on the call she admitted that there was nothing I could do right. She said that if I did something good she felt I was trying to kiss [censored]. If I did something wrong then I showed her I have not changed at all. She also said that our M was over and Harley told her it was over when we are divorced. Harley pushed for us to go to the MB weekend, but W flat out refused. W said that she does not trust me and that she had let me close to her before and I had hurt her through being controlling, jealous and mistrusting. All this was a day before W was taking off to leave the state to go and see a girlfriend and go to concerts. She was leaving Friday morning and coming home Monday afternoon. She had planned all of this without caring about my work schedule or anything.

My summary with Harley following my W's participation was that W is incredibly controlling right now. She is totally into whatever she wants to do without care for anyone else who gets in her way. In Harley's words, she is distracted and not getting it. He said this is either from an affair or true stubborness. Either way, Harley says my path is the same. He told me to take my S away for the weekend and collect my thoughts. We discussed my talking to W on Monday when she gets home and that I ask her to leave. I still very much love my W and want our M to work. Harley asked me what I wanted to do and I said, "Whatever I can to put our M in the best position to succeed." Harley realizes I am now running out of energy at great lengths and have done a plan A for a while. He has told me that I have made great changes in myself both mentally and physically. I have taken all the negative energy over the past 6 months and turned it into training for triathlons. I have lost 40 lbs and am now training for a half iron man next year (talk about a lot of negative energy).

Anyway, I am very nervous about tomorrow and am having the common thoughts: What if I am wrong and my telling W to leave will be the end to our M. The only things that keep me going are: 1) I have been sleeping downstairs on our couch since January 1; 2) We have not been intimate in over 2 years; 3) W continues to act suspicious and treat me very coldly, even saying last week, "Being around you makes me sick to my stomach; talking about working on our M makes me sick to my stomach; thinking about being intimate with you makes me sick to my stomach." 4) For the last 6 months, Harley has been working with me a lot and I have made massive improvements in myself. The whole time, all I have asked of W was to look into a plan that is available to us to make our M great and allow us to fall back in love and be happy. She has adamantly refused to even consider investigating this plan. The only reason she spoke with Harley was to "get you off my back so I could go to my girlfriends this weekend."

When I left our house early afternoon after our Harley phone call I said to W, "I love you and I want our M to be great." Then I walked out. When I got home she acted as though nothing had happened and she even went to the store and picked up orange juice for me because she saw we were out and she knew I love orange juice. She pointed this out. Thursday night, Harley told me to go dark, very dark. I did and did not interact with W at all. In fact, I was not around her while she packed. I did not say good-bye to her for her trip. I felt really bad for not even saying "be safe." I did and said nothing.

Friday afternoon she texts me, "Made it up here ok.I'll call S for bed.Hope your eyes are better." I had an eye becom infected this past wednesday due to a contact. I did not respond. Friday evening I went and took money out of the bank (she has had control of our banking accounts for years). I texted her, "$500 out of checking. Taking S to festival for weekend." She texted back, "OK, Where?" I wrote, "Laffayette." She wrote, "OK, Have fun." I did not respond.

S and I get to our hotel around 6:00 PM. We check in and go to dinner. Then we do minature golf and go back to the hotel. We decide to go swimming and then into the hot tub. While we are in the hot tub, W called. I put S on first. I was not interested in talking to her. S talks for a very short time because he wants to get back into the hot tub. He acted as though W was no longer on the phone. When I got the phone back I said, "Hello?" W was still there. She said, "Did you get my text earlier today? The one about my asking if your eyes were better." I said, "Yes, that was nice to ask that." Then she said she was at dinner at Applebees and was outside because she could not hear inside. I asked who was there. She told me just her one girlfriend and that they were waiting on another girlfriend. Then they were going to hear this one band. She told me to have a good time. I told her to have a good time too. She said she would call tomorrow to say good night to S.

S and I went to a festival and had a great time. Then we went back to the hotel and read one of his library books. He is in first grade and needs to read a certain amount each week. Then we went swimming and hot tubing and then to Chuckee Cheese for dinner. We just got back to our room when W called. She was late calling and I was glad she atleast called to say good night to S since she told him she would. She ended up on the phone with me and said that she just lounged around all day. She was at a concert and could barely hear us. She said she would call tomorrow night again to say good night to S.

I have put my thoughts down on paper to read to W tomorrow night. It is not a plan "B" letter as I will write and give one to her when she walks out. However, I could use some thoughts on what I am considering saying to her tomorrow. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------

Dearest W,

In Sheboygan on the Polka stage when we shared our first kiss, I got an overwhelming feeling that we would spend the rest of our lives together. That feeling has never changed for me since. I am in love with you in every way a person can be.

We faced some of the most difficult life challenges two people could face and found that together we can make it through anything.

Some how over the years we slowly grew apart. We both feel the other was not hearing our cries and would continue to hurt us. I now know that each of us was doing the best that we could with the relationship tools we had inside us at the time. We began to feel controlled and less loved by the other. We were not able to realize that our partner loved and cared for us deeply because of our feeling that we for some reason, needed to protect ourselves.

Throughout all of this, we have the most precious son whom we both put on a pedestal ahead of maintaining and growing our own relationship. In the end, we actually did S a disservice by letting our relationship lag behind him everytime.

Now we are at a point where we both cannot see eachother as we really are. We are unable to see the love, care and humanity that still resides in our hearts. Worse, at times we are actively blocking our natural feelings for each other and somehow have managed at times to even convince ourselves that we should nat have these feelings for each other. I realize now, this is crazy and will not suppress my feelings any longer, for they are how I feel.

I hear what you have been telling me since May, "I don't love you. I don't think I can get this feeling back. I don't trust you." I also understand why you feel how you do. However, this is not what we should accept. Our very first discussion, over looking Lake Michigan, we both agreed we never would get divorced once we got married to whomever. One for us because we both came from divorced parents, but two for any children because we both knew first hand the deep, life altering pain this causes a child.

W, I have hurt you greatly and never actually intended to hurt you. You have hurt me greatly, and I know in my heart you would not actually intend to hurt me.

Forgiveness is knowing the other person did not mean to hurt you and giving them another chance because you love each other.

Right now I still have enough love for you in my heart that I know, through working together, I could forgive you and we could recover our marriage and family. I believe and hope that there is still enough love somewhere deep in your heart for the same. I also know that a recovery of our marriage can only happen with us agreeing to something that protects each other, allows us to feel emotionally safe and helps us see the definable progress we would make. The most important thing for me is rebuilding our emotional connection.

Although right now I know I still have enough love for you in my heart, I also realize that on our current path: my sleeping on the couch; independent life styles; the blocking of an emotional connection to grow; no affection or intimacy; lies and deceptions; very hurtful words and no willingness to even investigate how to make our marriage great brings me to one of the saddest moments in my life.

With the understanding that there is an opportunity put in front of us that could make our marriage great and that at this moment I am still willing to investigate this with you, I am left with no choice but to agree that it is time for you to find your own place to live. This is something I have never wanted nor can I actually believe I am saying these words to you.

I have reached this point in hopes to still save our marriage. This does not come from anger or mallice. It comes from the purest and deepest love I could ever have for another human beign.

I love you W, I truely do.

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Any comments or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much in advance for ANY help you nice people are willing to provide.

I just can't help or get over the feeling that I am doing the wrong thing by asking her to leave. To me it seems so counter intuitive that I must tell my W to leave in order to save our M........

Best Wishes,

EL

Extremely,

Either your story is highly inaccurate or you have been talking to another Steve Harley! You have been going through TWO years of this cr*p and you are still lucid???? According to the VERY loose guidlines subscribed to in this forum a maximum 3 months Plan A is recomended for WW's( and I personally think that is 2 months too long).

First, wipe her footprints off your back and then read the following Hope for Couples in Crisis Next is to NEVER, NEVER accept the kind of disrespect that you have been willing to expect from not only your WW but also her family. Now my Plan C(ymanca)is to get yourself BACK in your bedroom and ship her lying behind downstairs on the couch(although she truly belongs outside of your marital home). Get everything in writing concerning her abandonment of your child. Contact a lawyer immediately for advice on how to legally protect you and your son. Separate your finances as much as you legally can and ABSOLUTELY refuse to pay for her sexual romps. You are not her daddy nor are you her banker.

And lastly regarding your letter, throw it in the trash. If two years of Plan A won't convince her, I GUARANTEE your letter will only serve as a knee slapping entertainment for your WW and officer Shawn.

Best of luck. I feel you have been very poorly served if your account is accurate.

Hello Cymanca,

My account is not inaccurate. I did not spend 10,000 paragraphs on all the horrid details, although it is pretty well accounted for in the EN section where I have some massive posts. I joined MB approximately 2.5 years ago. I spent the first 2 years learning about MB and trying to do the things for plan A. Then my world seemed to fall further apart and I ended up speaking with Steve for the first time in May.

I have went through what I have went through and trust Steve and MB as it is really the only thing I have to help me at the moment. I do feel as though I have been used by my W. When I mentioned this to Steve, he told me that this is how I would feel if I am doing plan A correctly. He helped me out and due to special circumstances held me back from a plan B because he did not want me to give my W a "cause" since she now had such a strong support group (her family, Shawn's family, her girlfriends etc..) All of this support structure has been setup with her fantasy thinking and I have been left with no way to counter any of it.

I truely feel that my W right now is someone I never knew before and never thought she could do or be what she is right now. I do hold out hope that reality can once again become her norm and we may find ourselves rebuilding what actually was a very promising life. I love her. She is the mother of my child. I wish to grow old with her.

As I have run out of steam now, Steve has agreed that I need to plan B for me more than anything else.

Best Wishes,

EL

Cymanca,

Thank you so much for the link for "couples in crisis." It really gave me some hope and inspiration in my hour of need. What I have gotten from this brief article, I know I will hold in my thoughts when I am asking my beloved to leave tomorrow night.

Thank you kind and caring sir!

EL

Cymanca after talking to Steve several times I believe his approach is to continue Plan A as long as the BS has enough energy left that they don't LB and begin to loose all the love for their WS.

EL, that is a very nice letter you wrote to your WW, however it will have absolutely NO effect on her so put it away in a safe place and maybe you can give it to her if she ever returns from the mothership.

I have tried those letter to and they seem to push the WS farther away. Don't give it to her...the only letter you should give her is a short Plan B letter and then go very dark. Plan B will help you rebuild your self esteem and self respect as long as you stay dark and committ to what you wrote. Maybe then your WW will begin to regain some respect for you when she sees that you stand by what you say. I speak from experience since my WW lost her respect for me and now I'm in a dark Plan B. She is slowly showing signs of her old self as she doesn't seem to like me being dark.

If this has been going on this long, I don't expect it to get better soon and that means Plan B may be your best option. However, before you go into Plan B you need to take care of all the details to minimize breaking it.

Will she leave when you ask her to? What if she says no?

HTW

Hello HopeThisWorks,



HTW, you are totally correct. This is definitely Steve's approach. I had said to him that I was concerned if I had done a good enough plan A to go to plan B and he told me that it is not about doing a good enough plan A to go to plan B. It is about plan Aing as long as you have the energy. He encouraged me to work on energy conservation over the last 6 months because, "If you run out of energy, we are done here." This is why I ended up going the excersize route and participating in triathlons. If you knew me from before, you would understand that my getting into triathlons is quite a testimony to the amount of negative energy one can accumulate going through what we are going through.

I would have replied earlier but my lap top ran out of juice and I am now on my W's computer as she comes home tomorrow. I also had to read with S until she called to say good night to him. She called 30 minutes past his bed time and claimed she was sorry, but wanted to call him when she got home to her girlfriend's house. They were out gambling at a Potowatomi place. I guess she never considered that she could have called anytime with her cell phone..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Oh, the WW, what a looser!!!!!



HTW, this is not a letter, or atleast it was not intended as such when I wrote it. It is more of a guidline for the talk I am planning on having with her tomorrow night when she gets back. You see, I am doing this in such a way that it is for me. It is right for me. I could give it to her afterwards and have thought about it as a possibility. I still may. However, the end result is still the same. If you are not going to shape up and work on our M, then get the ****** out!



Interesting. I can't give her a plan B letter until she is walking out the door. You see, after tomorrows talk she will not be able to move out right away. Infact, I believe she will drag her heels. Also, Steve originally did not want me to "ask her to leave because he felt it would give her a "cause." However, he can now see I am in desperate need of healing and now reccomends it. I must go with Steve on this as he just spent two hours with her and I on the phone and even he was stunned at just how controlling she is right now. She tried to control him!



Let me rephrase something. Our M was deteriorating over several years. I had tried to plan A since April of 2004 onwards. However, it was half-assed as I could not quite get or master some of the LBs I was doing. Admittedly, there are still some purists on the EN board that would tell you I have not mastered LBs at all. Steve says different to me. However, it was not until this last April that my W totally disconnected from our M and allowed someone else to connect with her emotionally. Therefore, in the purest of senses, I have been plan Aing since April 11, 2006. Steve did not come into the picture until the middle of May. If you want to get totally technical, one could argue that my real plan A did not begin until then, which puts me at almost 5 months. At the time I first talked with Steve, he asked me for a solid 6 months. I promised him this and I guess, came up short. Things became too much to bear for me. I could only turn the other cheek for so long. Her independent life style became too much for me to bear coupled with her horrible things she would say to me, such as her being near me makes her sick to her stomach, or that she has not seen any change in me at all. For crying out loud, I now weigh 196, which is 40 lbs liter than the middle of May! Everyone comments on it and W says she does not notice because she "sees me all the time and it is hard to notice the change because of this."

Anyway, my anger started to swell up inside of me and the last two talks, I exposed some critical evidence that Steve was telling me to wait on. However, after telling Steve what I did, he felt I did the right thing. Of Course W came up with really lame and off the wall excuses and turned my evidence on me as if I was a bad person. You can only discount a lovers Hallmark card so much, or a love note, or a hotel bill hidden away. Because of my anger and my slipping up, Steve said it would only get worse and my anger would only grow. He asked me what I wanted to do. I told him I wanted to do whatever I could to put my M in the best possible position for success and that if he told me making it through the rest of the year trying to plan A, then I would find the way to do it. He told me this would not be the case and that I am going to seperate, it is just a matter of when to pull the trigger. We agreed on it being tomorrow night.

Tomorrow, W gets back in time to pick up S from Chess club (he is in 1st grade). Then I come home around 6:15 and take S swimming with me from 7:15 - 9:00. We will get home and put him tobed and then this is when I was planning to ask my W for a few minutes of her time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Do go on. This is something I am worried about. You see, Steve and I decided this last Thursday night. I have not talked with a lawyer yet. I have not been able to do much, except compose my thoughts, which you read and consider everything I need to get my arms around (financially speaking).



She has been threatening to "find her own place" a couple of times now. I believe it was a control tool to stuff me back in my box. I really think she will resist leaving at first because she has been a homemaker for 7 years. She has not taken the opportunity to really look for a job, or go to college, or start her own business or whatever, since our S has started full time school. We have discussed this and I supported her doing any of those things. She dedicated herself to our family for 7 years, giving up her working so our S had a parent at home. I believe this is part of our issue as we feel she lost self-worth along the way. Right now, she has (or should I say had) one of the best opportunities in front of her to do whatever she wanted. I guess she actually chose what she "wanted" to do, watch Sylvia Brown on Montel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I probably will not have much sleep tonight and would appreciate any and all comments to help me through the night. I am going to be around on this post for a while I'm afraid.

Best Wishes,

EL

Is anyone still up?

I'm here, but with little to say. I always feared you would wind up in this situation. I agree you need to do Plan B for you. I hope it brings you healing. Peace.

Hey Hold,

Its been a while. I could not help but see that things seem to be looking up for you. Fill me in. I am happy for your situation turning around.

As for me, please do not fear for me. I finally know that a lot of the badgering and negativity I recieved from some posters was actually miss placed. Steve helped me to actually see that my WW was being VERY controlling towards me. He experienced this first hand last week and was shocked at just how controlling she really was.

I am sad that it seems my M could not turn around from doing a plan A, but as I am learning, not many Ms do. Having said this, I do wish you well my friend.

As it is now Monday, I am scared for what this day will bring....

Take Care,

EL

Do you feel your mind and heart are in sync so you can do a good plan B? Do you know the purpose of plan B? Have you identified your personal and M boundaries for YOU? Are you ready to implement them?

L.

Hello Orchid,



How can you ask so much in so few words?

I am nervous, scared, sad, concerned, frightened, angry, depressed, drained, tired and somehow feel underlying moments of calm. Sound crazy?

My mind is going back and forth as to how rational it is to tell my W to leave in order to have a great M with her. My heart is screaming at me to not let go. My body is telling me it is time.

My personnel boundaries have been trampled on for far too long. My M boundaries have been ripped apart even longer.

What are you getting at?

Thanks,

EL

Ya know Orchid,

I just read TrueHeart's letter and wonder if I should not print it off and give it to my WW tomorrow after our "discussion."

What do you think?

EL

Hi EL,

I think it is time, and I hope the Plan B works and your wife comes to her senses.

For those who were asking about EL's history, I've been following his posts for over two years now. It is about 2.5 years since he started posting on MB. For most of that time though, based on his own posts about himself, he was a neverending LB firehose as far as I could see. It's been in about the last 6-7 months that I've seen real change in his behavior.

So when he tells you how long he's been doing "Plan A", he's talking about how long he's been posting on MB. The actual Plan A has been under six months. Unfortunately, his wife has been pretty unreceptive to the changes as far as I've been able to see, and given the presence of an OM, that's sadly no surprise. Argh.

EL, I don't see what else you can do at this point other than Plan B. I hope it brings her back to her senses. Hang in there. How are you doing on getting good sleep these days? Is that any better?

Hello MOS,

It is really good to hear from you.



Thanks for the nice wishes. I am scared and uncertain what today will bring. If she refuses to actually move out, then I am not sure how things will go. Steve has mentioned to me about doing a plan B while still in the same house. He agrees that in my situation, I should not move out of the house. Not really sure what situation it is actually ok to move out of the house. Oh well, this is why I pay an expert - right?



Why MOS, I cannot begin to tell you just how much this paragraph really means to me. For those of you just joining my situation, MOS has been one of my toughest critics, which I welcome with open arms. I value everyone's opinion, as you may soon find out. MOS, your saying that you have seen me change for the better (notice I am not saying 100% perfect here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) gives me greater confidence that I am doing the right thing. Your opinion, coupled with Steve's opinion of our joint 2 hour phone call last Thursday, helps me to understand that where we are is not ALL my fault and that I am not a really horrible person. It also lets me know that for where we are right now, there most likely is nothing I can do other than a plan B to kick start something.



MOS is correct, I have been on MB for 2.5 years, but I think most are in agreement that I have probably not had a good plan A until 5 months or so ago. Also, not only is there the strong potential of this OM, but WW has also integrated herself into his family, which includes OM's brother whom has gone through quite a difficult and emotional time and talks regularly with WW. WW also talks regularly with OM's Mom. The girlfriend that WW has rekindle a relationship with and is visiting this weekend, used to date one of OM's brothers as well. This GF was in our wedding too. This is all a real mess. I even had the thoughts that maybe W is actually looking in a different direction. She went to see GF to go see a band play this weekend. Her last visit to this GF they saw this particular band play twice. This GF's boyfriend works the lightling for this band so they are getting to hang out with the band etc.. This weekend, I wondered if it were likely that WW was interested in someone in this band perhaps. The only thing for sure is that she is not interested in me at the moment. Steve H. also through in the idea that she may not be interested in anyone and is just very stubborn. He says he has also seen this before. So, I am very confused still, but feel my path is becoming clearer as I still sleep on the couch, W shows no desire to even investigate fixing our M, W continues to treat me coldly etc..



Thank you MOS, I too hope plan B brings her back to reality, but as I have had to learn, plan B is more for me. I need distance so I can heal myself and protect my S. Can you actually believe WW wanted to take S out of school on Friday and Monday so she could have this weekend to do as she pleased? She was going to drop him off at her dad's. I am trying to hang in there. Great people like yourself are going to be a great help. The sleep thing has not really gotten better as a whole. I have a ton of things falling down around me at my business as you might expect. I cannot let this drop anylonger as we are doing two expansions at the moment and increasing our staff by over 50%. As far as loosing sleep over my M (other than tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), this has lessened. I still have sad moments as expected, but they are becoming fewer I have noticed. I am really worried about S and how this is all going to effect him. He is so precious and does not diserve any of this.

Best Wishes & Thank You,

EL

EL, just wanted to pop in and say I'm praying for peace and healing for you and your family. You're in good hands!

(((EL)))

Extremely Lost

I'm sorry it's come to this.


It is counter intuitive, until you look at all the damage that's being done to the marriage and to you by allowing the situation to continue as it is. At some point (if you're not careful), the BS becomes the biggest barrier to marital recovery.

As for the letter -- gathering of your thoughts -- I think it strikes the wrong tone. I'm not trying to be harsh (I hope you know that) but this is more of the same thing she's been hearing over and over again from you. After the second sentence her eyes are probably going to glaze over Here he goes again and she's not even going to be with you when you "drop the bomb."

Besides that, you're slipping back into using the "royal WE" again....


I think you're honestly trying to 'team build' by verbally putting both of you in the same boat. Unfortunately, it comes across as more pompous than teambuilding.

My suggestion:

- do something very different to catch her attention
- keep it short and to the point
- look up Orchid's posts on reverse babble

I envision something more like this:



"You're right."


(Catchy opener.. that generally catches people's attention because people love to hear they're right.)

If you're done with this relationship and I'm making you sick to your stomach, then I would like you to move out. I love you and I married you for life, but I don't want you to live here if you're done with this marriage and I'm making you sick to your stomach.

Then STOP!

Be prepared for her to react (she always does) and practice your reverse babble.

Here are some ideas:



She says: Why do I have to move out? You should be the one to leave!

You say: I'm not the one who's done with this marriage nor am I the one who's getting sick. I don't want to leave.

---

She says: I knew this would happen! This is all about sex! I told you that you haven't changed.

You say: I have changed. I no longer want to live with someone who doesn't want to partner in marriage with me. I've also changed my mind about sleeping on the couch. I'll be sleeping in the bedroom starting tonight.

She says: I told you I'd move to the guest room!

You say: That's fine until you can make other arrangements.

---

She says: Fine! Then we'll get a divorce.

You say: I'll file for divorce when I want one.

---

She says: What about DS? I'm taking him with me!

You say: No, I think it's in his best interest to stay here in his neighborhood in his school for now. I'm sure he'll miss you when you're not here but we'll manage. I assume you'll visit him.

---

She says: This is it! I'm filing for divorce. I'll never forgive you for this!

You say: I wonder how soon our son will forgive. (Ok, that one's not nice but I think you should consider it anyway. Just don't append us, you, or me onto the end of it.)



Remember, you're really trying to get her to move out so you can do an effective plan B. Don't give into her attempts to draw you into the old patterns where it's all your fault and you're being mean to her. Right now, you're changing tactics and 'agreeing' with how she feels. If she's done with the marriage, then she needs to leave the marital home. Don't worry about the Plan B message (what she has to do to get back home) until she leaves otherwise you'll be under constant barrage about that.

This whole conversation needs to be calm, short, and you should be ready to disengage and go somewhere else (running) if she becomes too distraught.

Last thing. Steve is not a lawyer nor does he give legal advice. Are you worried she'll take your son out of state? If so, call your lawyer and see what you can do about that.

Good luck,

Mys

Hello EL,

I, too, am sorry it's come to this. Goodness knows you've been trying very hard to make this M stick. I feel drained just having to try to help you through it ... I can't imagine how zapped you must be.

I wish the best for you. I do think you need to start working towards other possible endings to your situation. Continuing to stay M'ed to this person your W has become isn't healthy for anyone. Hopefully the Plan B shakes her to her core and she begins to come around. It will be a long road though so be prepared to have more energy than ever before. It's going to take a lot of strength to work at being dark and moving on. It's your general nature to look at things through rose-colored glasses and I fear you'll get sucked back into this nightmare R.

Don't forget to ask for help on how to explain this calmly to your S. I'm sure he'll be devastated but things cannot continue as they are. They'll soon become toxic for everyone including him.

Again I'm sorry to hear things haven't changed. I was ready to send a call out to you last week seeing it had been too long since we'd heard from you. And as I feared your silence meant things weren't improving.

Take note of what Myschae has said. Your letter would be torn to shreds by SH if you showed it to him. This isn't the way to go dark. This isn't a good Plan B letter. Myschae hit on something when she talked about you discussing things in the "Royal WE" sense. There is no "Royal WE" right now as your W doesn't see the future that you see. Talking to her in that sense will only cause her to miss what you are truly trying to say. "Recovering a M takes work but a lost M and lost love can be recovered.".

I love Myschae's proposed dialogue to when your W comes home. Do it just like that. It's reverse babble time. Time to go dark. (If you need good pointers search through MyWifeILove's story to find the part where he went dark. That's how you need to be. You need to know you're going to be OK with out her and you need to start making that happen (just in case she doesn't come around.).

Good luck EL. And special good luck tonight. I'll be watching for ya.

I've been following for some time now and I wish you well tonight and the following days...it'll be tough, but hang in there EL...prayers to you and yours

Hello ears_open,



Thank you so much for the kind words. They mean so much to me in my darkest hour.

EL

Hello Mys,



Me too Mys, me too.



I know you are right. Deep down I know this.



Keep in mind I will be speaking once again with Steve today at 2:30 my time. I need a final pep talk! Also, this is not meant to be a plan B letter. Not yet. It is a letter from my heart describing how I feel and what I think right now. To me, this letter is more for me than for her, if this makes any sense. I am delivering it to her as I feel I need to for me to come to the conclusion that it is time for her to move out. The "bomb" will come across.

I know you are not trying to be harsh and I have NEVER EVER taken any of your advice to be harsh. You are right, it is more of the same thing she has been hearing. It is the last time she is going to hear it too. Maybe her eyes will glaze over, but I would bet against it. You see, Steve had me go very dark Thursday night. I did not even say good bye or be around her when she packed. I did not answer text messages or stay on the phone with her at all this weekend. She has done some little things to try and be nice (is the only reason I can think of). She picked up OJ for me before she left; she TMed me regarding how my eye was doing; she left a note signed "Love mommy (W)." The first two of these she actually mentioned to me that she did this almost looking for a pat on the back, which never came. I have NEVER been as I have for any of her trips before. I believe she must have an idea that something is headed her way in a hurry.


Actually, this was deliberate because it is true. WE have both hurt each other. WE have both ignored each others feelings. WE have both put S ahead of our R/M. I mean each and every carefully selected word I wrote.



I am not sure that I feel it is pompus, but if you say so, I tend to believe what you say. However, what I wrote is all true. She has told me this stuff and I have also felt the same way. I am just re-itterating what she has told me and letting her know I have felt the same. There are two of us in this thing still.

I did read Orchid's post on reverse babble last night. I also read Trueheart's letter and have printed it out. Iwould like to read what I have written and give it to W. Then I would also like to give her a copy of Trueheart's letter to read on her own time if she decides to. I will find out how Steve feels about all this. In my own letter, I tried to stay away from anything to do with an affair. The undeniable truths are enough to warrant what I am asking of her, without clouding things with dissputable conjecture.

Rememmber, I actually and doing something very different here. I have gone way dark and am now asking her to move out. This in and of itself is very different from how I have been. She feels I have been keeping her locked away in our house and would not let go. I am now releasing the bird. She will hear this message. I am not sure how she will react, but she will hear it. She will then know that she can no longer use leaving as a tool for controlling me. The only thing she will have left to use is S. I am sure that she will try to use S, unfortunately. This is because she will be overcome with feelings of insecurity and latch onto the only thing left. I am prepared for this (atleast tonight). I am ready to say, "S needs both his parents and he is the biggest thing in our lives at this point and we need to be very careful with him. He diserves our very best and we must consider what is in his best interests. Because of this, I do not feel that tonight is the right time to be discussing S."



Normally, I would agree with you. However, I see this as her seeing me as throwing a fit because she went away for the weekend. I think Steve would agree with me as he witnessed her in her full glory last Thursday. My letter and direction has remained consistent throughout the last 6 months. It does not come across as punishing her for her choices. Steve asked me to maintain the concept that there is an opportunity put in front of us. He wants her to realize that there is a way for us to have a great M and that she is CHOOSING to not investigate this possibility. Steve feels this is the key right now. Once she accepts that there is a way, but she is CHOOSING instead of using the excuse that she HAS NO CHOICE, he feels reality will start to slip in.

Basically, it does not really matter what I write or say. I could stand up and sing the Star Bangled Banner and it would not make a difference right now because she is in such a fog. She has started to even not do things for our S. She did not have him brush his teeth before school for three days in a row last week. She called 30 minutes after his bed time every night this weekend. Last night she said it was because she was gambling and wanted to call when she got back to the house. Never occured to her that this would be a great use for her cell phone!

Since it does not really matter what I say to her right now, as long as I get the message across that she should move out, then why not say something that means something to me? Why not do something that would make me feel better because it came from my heart?



Actually, this would create further arguing. What I am thinking of saying here is that I cannot afford to move out and pay for the mortgage of this house at the same time. Therefore, she either moves out or we put a for sale sign up. Since S is already established with friends in this neighborhood, for his sake, it would be in the best interest of S that we keep this house. Therefore, the only sensible thing is for me to stay in this house.



Actually, she won't say it is about sex anymore. She will say it is about me being upset with her going away for the weekend to see a girl friend and that she is not letting me control her to the point she is agreeing to go for the MB weekend.

However, I do like your response regarding that I have changed and that I no longer want to live with someone who does not want to partner with me in our M. I am not too crazy about sleeping in my bed right now as I have explained before. Therefore, I am not going to push to sleep in our bedroom alone.



This is good. Maybe I should add, "You need to do what you feel you need to do."



I have to be careful here. I cannot stop her from walking out the door with S. I also do not want S to see that he is in a tug of war. I would most likely fall back to what I said earlier. I would also say that I am completely willing to work out something fair to both of us and to S.



Actually, it is a great line.



Yep. I realize that my ultimate showing of love towards her is to remain calm and not fall into any arguing or yelling. I need to deliver the message and then back away. I am not worried about the plan B message as much as I am worried about how this is all going to go down. I am also concerned with if she decides to stay in the house. Steve feels I could still plan B with her in the house, but it would be extremely tough!



Can you say Amber Alert? If I must get into it with her because she just won't let it go for the night and she threatens to take S away that night, I will then say, "WW, look. I am willing to be completely fair here and feel that 4 days with you, then 4 days with me is reasonable. I am not willing to give up more than 50% of S. If I feel forced into a corner on this, I will fight for my rights as his father and what is truely in his best interests."



Mys, thank you so much! You have always been an inspiration to me. I really appreciate you stopping by on this critical day to offer your support. I can't tell you how much this means to me. Some day I will be able to.

Take Care,

EL

Hello MyAlias,



I know. You kind people have been right there with me on my roller coaster ride and I am greatful to have made such awsome friends.



I fear this too. I do not want to be sucked back in and have to do this twice!!! I am sure it will be hard. I love her and it is not easy telling the person you love that you think it is best that they leave.



My little guy is tops on my mind. He and I had a great weekend. On the drive up I got him a sketch pad and colored pencils. I told him to draw something that made him really happy. He drew a picture of all three of us eating dinner together. Saturday night leaving the fair I asked if he had a good time and if this fair was something he wanted to come back to next year. He said, "Yes, but next year we can bring mom along."



Actually, I think that things finally are improving in a strange way. I know that I am now moving in some kind of direction. It may be a different direction than what I want, but it will not remain the hurtful unfulfilling path I am currently on. Because of this, I ask that you be happy for me, even during the next few days when I most certainly will be feeling completely crushed. You know of my struggle and the energy it has taken from me.



I will actually put this to the test at 2:30 when I read it to him. No worries friend, I am in good hands. Like I said to Mys. I feel as though there is really nothing I could say that would be right in WW's eyes. Therefore, I might as well say something that means something to me. Right?



Thanks to you I have read MyWifeILove's post. I am familiar with going dark and have already started going dark. Obviously, there will be times I will need more help on this. However, I have no doubt the great people here on MB will be more than happy to use their clue bat on me if I drift too far from the plan.



Thank you so much my good friend. I will undoubtedly be up and on this site tonight. Most likely after 10:00pm Eastern. I am hoping there are plenty of people around to talk me down from the ledge.

Take Care,

EL

Hello Diamondsj,



Thank you so much for your kind wishes. They mean so much to me right now. You are too kind.

EL

Well I see you are going to discuss this with the expert so we'll leave it in his good hands. I will throw in my .02 cents worth just in case.

I was under the impression that he wanted you to go dark and your letter still seems to cling too much to wanting to convince her that this thing is worth saving. You are repeating what you've already said ... over and over again. You're right she's not going to hear it so how does it help you if she isn't going to hear any or it? You just want to get it out there? Is it just one more lecture you want to give her before sending her off?

SH asked you to go dark. You've already started going dark. This long message to her is not being dark. I'd keep it short and sweet. Not mean, just dark. You need to start sending the message that you are done working with her. She needs to want this M. She needs to come to you. If you are in dark mode she shouldn't be hearing that you're still trying to convince her of anything. You've run out of steam. You aren't going to fight for this anymore. You are trying to preserve the minimal amount of love you have for her. It also gives you some control of your life and what happens in it. Going dark will accomplish this in its mysterious mode of silence.

JMHO.

Hi EL,

(((((EL))))))

Well, I think this is ultimately a good and wise thing for you to do right now--though I know it's painful and hard, and I am sad that your wife never could rally towards you.


Of course you know I will beat my same drum... your letter is too much... Too many words.

She won't hear but a few words from you, so you better make them count. If your goal is to get her out of the house, than you need to keep it simple.

I like Myschae's ideas. Also, there are plan b letters all over the place on this board (Anyone know how to link, maybe you could send him a couple). You could follow their format.

The point isn't to say whatever makes you feel good--it is to say whatever is most likely to guarantee your success.

Any discussion with SH on what to do if she refuses to leave?

Hello MyAlias and Telly,

Thanks for your tremendous support. First I want to re-itterate that this is NOT a plan B letter. Steve was very clear on this. My W will not be able to move out tonight or even tomorrow. Therefore, Steve does not want me to give her a plan B letter until she is walking out the door.

Steve asked me to deliver the message that I feel it is time for her to find her own place. However, he still wants me to give her the consistent message that we have an option put in front of us by Steve and that at this time we could still take him up on his offer for the MB weekend. Steve wants me to plug this message at this time, while delivering the concept that I am now agreeing with her moving out.

I am not sure why the reccomendations for me, from Steve do not seem to follow MB to the letter of the law, but for some reason, it has been this way all along for me. He held me up from doing plan B when I was out of energy because of his concerns over her support structure. Now, he is pushing for W to get the understanding that there actually is something that would save our M if she chose to follow it, but if she did not, she would be making a choice instead of actually being "forced" to kill the M. Steve still believes this is a fundamental turning point for my W. I have to follow the expert on this.

I will read the letter and if he feels the same as you guys, I will not read it. If he feels I should remain a man of few words at this point, I will.

Regarding W not wanting to move out, Steve admitted that I cannot force her out. Therefore, he said I would have to begin a "quasi-plan B" while we both lived at home. Although this would be difficult, it can be done. I would need to take back handling the finances (atleast the ones involving the money I am making). Also, I would go dark and remain dark. I would surround myself with only doing things with S. I would be going out of my way to not involve W in anything I am doing. I would have to tell W through a letter and conversation that I was detaching from her to preserve what little love I had left for her.

These are what Steve has recommended to me.

Thanks,

EL

Good.


I guess I'm just afraid it won't because you're so wordy. My prediction is that she's more or less going to ignore what you said (other than getting mad at you for saying it.)

At least you have a backup plan (in house Plan B).

Are you at least prepared for some of her bad behavior to possibly escalate some while she 'tests you.'


You can't control what she hears or doesn't hear. Let it go.


You know what? You have a point. Right now, your actions will offer clarity greater than your words. So, say whatever makes you feel at peace with yourself. This is hard enough, really.

Your actions will speak for you when the time comes.


An amber alert is for kidnapped children. While you're married with no custody order in place, your wife is legally able to take those children anywhere (I think).


I know this isn't what you wanted. I'm sorry to see this day come but a little relieved for you, also. It's going to be hard, but you can do this.

I know you think that the world is going to shift around tonight but I suspect that aside from some stomping around, your wife is going to pretend none of this ever happened. So, don't look for too much action -- though be watchful that she doesn't take your son and leave the state.

Things won't really start happening until you take action (like taking back the finances), etc. This is just the first step in what is likely to be a long, protracted situation. So, try and plan for that, ok?


Mys

Ok guys,

I just finished with Steve. He told me that it has been 5 days since we had our phone conversation with WW. He recommended a "weather check." He wants me to go home early and have enough time before I need to leave with S to take him swimming. He wants me to fit in, "Have you reconsidered Steve's offer to investigate how to make our M great?" Then he wants me to watch her reaction.

Steve says that if she says she will go to the seminar, then things are put on hold. If she says she is still thinking about it, or has not had the chance, then things are put on hold. If she flat out refuses and says something like, "I told you I am not going and you are not going to tell me what to do." then I proceed with pulling the trigger, but after S is in bed later on.

Steve feels that the longest she can delay is two weeks since the seminar is at the end of the month. I told Steve I am not too comfortable with this since I have somewhat made peace in my mind as to what I was going to do tonight. However, there is a 95% chance I will still be pulling the trigger.

The question you are all wondering is that Steve told me it is really 6 and 1/2 dozen of another with regards to what letter I read her. However, he leaned towards keeping it short and saying something like, "WW, Since you have consistently refused to investigate a possible plan, or any plan to make our M great, I think it is time you should move out."

SH feels WW is going to get upset and not want to move out. He feels that she is going to turn things upside down to stay, which is funny and makes her position even weaker. SH wants me to stay focused and gave me a phrase to get me out of trouble. He said to say, "My WW has no interest in investigating something she is unaware of that could make our M great. What am I supposed to do?"

SH feels it is good to go into this without having consulted a lawyer at first because she will feel less threatened. I have currently stopped my next pay check from going into our bank account. I will recieve a live check and then be able to decide what to do with it in the next few days. This gives me options.

What do you guys think?

EL

EL,

I only have a quick moment.

I think you need a plan and who better to follow than the advice of an expert (SH).

Good luck tonight.

I'm praying she says OK to the seminar or spews venom. That way you can start down something other than this horrid holding pattern.

(((EL))))

Good luck, dear man.

Please let us know how it goes.

You and your little family are in my prayers.

Ok, I am home and about to leave in 25 minutes to take S swimming. I small talked with W as SH suggested. She showed me her concert shirt she bought that said "Mom's Love Us." I asked how her knew clothes worked out. She told me the outfits she wore in detail (not sure why).

We went downstairs to make dinner for S while he was upstairs on the computer and continued some small talk about bills etc.. Then I asked, "Have you reconsidered the offer SH made us about investigating something that could make our M great?" W said, "I don't want to go to that seminar. I told you last week." I could not take it. I got up and walked outside. W made a poor look on her face and a sigh. While I was outside, I remembered SH told me to then change the subject. So, I started to go back inside and W ended up comming outside.

She said, "So, you are going to be [censored] to me because I don't want to go." I said, "You don't want to work on our M, what am I supposed to do?" I sat down next to her on the porch and she made a [censored] face (like, oh, boy, here we go again. He has not even been home 15 minutes and we are already into a relationship talk). Since she did not say anything further to my comment, I just threw my hands up, got up and walked back in the house.

She ended up comming back in after a ciggarrett. Meanwhile, I got S downstairs to eat dinner. When she walked back in she was on her cell with her mom. Funny how she got onto the phone with her mom that quick. I no longer believe in coincidences in my life. I bet W senses what is about to befall her and probably let her mom know it was about to happen. I know this is me filling in the blanks right now, but WTF?!

When she walked back in she was still talking with her mom and I heard her say, "They took pictures the whole weekend and EL put them into a scrap book for S. S, do you want to talk to yaya?" S did not want to and W said, "Ok, maybe later." Then she told her mom she loved her and hung up.

She tried to talk to me about other small stuff as though nothing just happened. In fact, while I just got onto my computer she just stuck her head out our door and asked me if I got it working. I said yes and she went back inside.

I guess this is it. Its on for tonight! W seemed as though she wanted to say something else, but held back. Not sure how she will react to tonight.

What do you guys think?

EL

I think you should go ahead, following the plan for this contingency just as Steve spelled out.

Good luck, EL. I'm very sorry it has come to this.

I think she'll...


..most likely ignore it like crazy until as long as you are "just" talking. I mean that behaviorally, by the way, not that she won't comment. I'm sure she will comment -- then studiously ignore it and try to keep the status quo.

Once you take this step, actions are what will count. (Actually, actions are always what's counted)

Mys

Thanks MOS and Mys for the encouragement!

SH told me to go for it in this situation. I am thinking WW will not be suprised. I just put S to bed and am giving him some time to fall asleep. WW is actually doing OUR laundry right now.

I am going to ask for a few moments of her time downstairs. Then I will say: "Your consistent choices to not investigate any type of plan that could make our M great has left me with no alternative but to agree that it is time for you to find another place to live." Then I wait. Then react calmly.

Funny thing is that SH and I covered things up to this point, but not any further.

If she does not want to move out, I have an idea of what to say, somewhat. However, even if she agrees to move out, we did not cover how I would behave around her during the transition. We also have joint parties comming up etc..

What do I do? Do I say that based upon our current situation, I am also left with no choice but to detach myself from her to preserve the love I have left for her?

Do I tell her I am taking back the finances? I have talked to my payroll lady and she is getting me a live check this time which gives me options for a few days.

Oh, I am scared! I really love her and want to grow old while being in love with W!

Darn the drug she is on!!!!!!!

EL

Oh My GOD!!!!

I told WW today that I wanted her to move out. She got mad and told me that I had no right to tell her to move out of HER house. She said the house is both of ours and that I should move out! She also said she is not leaving the house until everything is settled. I then told her she has money in her personnel checking account and that I would not leave her destitute.

Then she said, "Real nice. Because I will not go to the stupid seminar you tell me to move out." I said, "No, because you refuse to investigate ANY opportunity available to work on our M, I am loosing too much love for you and need to preserve what love I have left."

It ended up becomming too long and drawn out. We went back and forth (I know, I could not help it). Then she accused me of creating a circular argument AGAIM. I told her that it is her creating the circular argument because she NEVER moves towards resolution and just continues to ignore what I am saying and then acts like nothing is wrong."

I read her my longer letter (the one I posted). She sat quiet for a while and then, "What am I supposed to say?" I said, "Its not what you are supposed to say, it is what your heart tells you to say."

She got mad and went to leave the room and said, "Fine. You want resolution? You LEAVE!" Then she went upstairs. She ignored my calling her and asking her to wait a minute.

I followed her up into our bedroom (I know, I should not have). I tried to talk with her further. She said she did try long ago and did not know I could hurt her like that (in the past). She said, "I am scared that you would physically hurt me. You actually scare me. The emotional abuse, the drinking binge when you got into my face (this was the day after I found out about the OM and she told me she did not love me and wanted a D), its all a pattern of a physical abuser!" I was shocked and said, "Stop! Don't take that last little bit from me. Even basic human compassion inside of you should not let you take that last little bit from me."

I said, "You know I would never physically hurt you." She said, "You keep pushing me and pushing me and won't let things go. This pushes me further away. Don't you get that? You won't stop until I agree with what you want." I said, "All I want is for you and I to be happy." W said, "Of Course I want you and I to be happy, but I don't believe we can be happy together." I said, "Why not investigate this." She said, "Fine. I'll read the 'plan.' Does that make you happy?" I said, "No. I am tired of living like this. The second to the last thing I want is to split up. The last thing I want is to continue living how we are living." I said, "Let me ask you a question." She had her arms folded and was watching the TV through me. I said, "My W refuses to investigate things she is unaware of that could make our M great. What is her H supposed to do? Really W, what am I supposed to do?" W said, "Move on. You just keep pushing me to get your way. You never stop." I said, "I am stopping right now. I am letting go and I am giving you what you are asking for."

I walked away. She came downstairs in a huff and had a smoke outside while I got on my computer.

I probably screwed this up.

Then while I was just typing this I heard S cry out in his sleep. I went upstairs and W was on our bed looking as though she was TMing on her cell phone. She said she did not hear S. I took care of S and then walked into our bedroom. I said, "If this is what you really want, then I will let go. Maybe it is the only way left to show you that I truely love you." She did not say anything and then said, "I was setting my alarm on my phone." (Yeah, Right!) I walked back downstairs.

Go ahead. Tell me how horrible I just did!!!!!!!

EL

I guess, at the very least I took away her controlling tool of telling me she was going to find a place to live. She had been using this one more persistently lately.

EL

Is anybody out there? I really could use someone to talk to right now....

EL

I am here, I have been following your thread, You know what, you did the best you could with the tools and experience you had. She sure will drop the 'I'm leaving" stuff now.

Sliver

I also lost it sometimes in the "trouble" days. I am much better now and rarely lose it, but when I was where you are, I DJ'd or rose to the bate and forgot to reverse babble.

When it hurts it hurts. You have made a step. Made a statement and that is one step forward. You also see how little good the long flowery statements make. Short and sweet factual sentences. No past, just the present and a reflection of what she is doing and then say what will enable her to see your position.

So now - you go dark, act as if she is a stranger who will be offended if you make small talk. Only say what you have to. It will drive her mad and creat a vacuum, usually you say to much too often. The change will stun her. Expect her to explode.

SH will suggest exactly how you make your next move. I would suggest letting her get a dose of the new you. Little conversation if DS is not there. Try to make it normal for him. Stay calm, no raised voice, sparse words, try to stay out of her presence.

SP

You did fine. You all ready knew it was unlikely for her to agree to leave (and then the next natural thing would be for her to tell YOU to leave).

You probably should have kept it shorter -- but you didn't, and that's OK too. I don't think you did any damage.

The important part now will be to listen to Steve about how to 'take back' the finances, etc. I don't know what to say about the parties. It sort of depends on how you feel about them, I guess. When you interact with your wife, you should probably at least be cordial. And, I suspect not bring up any relationship talk.

I'm sorry you're so hurt. Try and do something nice for yourself today.

Mys

EL,

You did just fine. Surprisingly fine. Maybe it dragged out longer than it should have but in the end ... what damage could it do???? Things are already nearly as crappy as they could be.

I think it's time for you to begin an at home Plan B. By the sounds of it there is no way she's moving out. She wants to continue to live this roommate relationship because the alternative for her is much, much worse than what she's got now. Sorry but she's a cake-eater. Wants to continue to live off of you yet doesn't want to do anything to move towards a healthy, loving R. Time for you to get your finances in order and start cutting off the joyride she's on.

IMHO. Of course follow SH's advice only.

Amazing how she tries to portray you as some kind of monster. Bringing up the possibility of physical abuse. What a load!! Then claims you keep pushing. My goodness it has been years since she's made any kind of move that similates what a H and W should have. And she wants to complain that you're pushing her. Of course you are!!!! Your life is passing you by while you wait for her to do SOMETHING!

She'll say anything she can to get you to back down so she can continue her to raise her son in a beautiful home with her roommate and son's biological father. It really strikes a nerve for me. It would be different if she were doing anything that resembled some form of partnership in your R.

Enough of my rant. How are you doing this morning? You holding together OK? Are you still feeling positive about moving in some kind of direction? I think this is going to be what's best EL. I think you need to make things happen. This has dragged on for way too long. Stay strong my friend. You'll get through it and things will someday be rosey for you again.

You did well enough. Next you need more info from Steve Harley. I'm not surprised she refused to leave and told you to leave instead; I'd expect just about anyone in that situation to say the same thing. I think you need advice from the pro on how to handle that.

Unlike MyAlias, I think her statment of physical fear of you is legitimate. Your LB history is spectacular and cruel, and you did freely choose to cross the line into physical intimidation, which is a form of physical abuse whether you like to admit it or not. By my standards, I'd have thrown you out twenty times over AND had you arrested.

You have improved, but that improvement was punctured by your drunken outburst and some other problems. That further trashes your credibility in her eyes as far as believing any improvements are for real.

I still think Plan B is the best you can do in this situation since your wife refuses to work on the marriage. I don't think she owes you anything as far as working on the marriage, but that doesn't mean she gets to cake-eat. Leaving is ok, staying and working on it is ok, cake-eating is not.

Hello Guys,

I am holding together ok right now. Not sure that I did much of anything yesterday, or accomplished anything. I am very confused right now. I just want a great M with WW right now and this hurts.

I really think Mys has it right. I think W did not take me seriously. I think she thinks if anything, it was just another argument and that it was because I was upset with her going to see a girl friend.

I met with a lawyer/lobbyist who works for me. I spoke to him briefly. He is hand picking me an attorney and will get back to me today.

I have a live check comming, which normally would be deposited into our account directly on Friday. I guess the next step would be to let WW know that I have rerouted my checks and will write out the checks from now on. However, I should probably also tell her that she needs to pay for her own cell phone, car and entertainment right now.

I was considering calling a realestate agent to ask questions about listing our house. I thought it might be good to let WW know I was looking into the possibility and that the realestate agent told me we could expect a loss on the house, because of the current market in our area.

Maybe let her know that I am going to talk with an attorney to find out what each of our rights are regarding a legal seperation.

If I do these three things, just maybe she will take me serious.

I am currently stuck. I thought WW might actually agree to looking into some kind of plan last night, but in the end I felt she felt cornered and whenever she feels cornered she cuts her nose of to spite her face! This is a classic pattern she has repeated several times before.

I also found it really interesting last night how quickly she changed her tune about moving out. She was so loud about moving out when I tried to talk with her the last few times, and then really changed her tune last night. I guess this just goes to show that most of what she tells me is probably manipulative BS!

She did ask about S last night and what my plan was for him. I told her that he needed both his parents and that we should have equal custody. Funny, isn't it? It is as though, for the moment, I held all the power.

After a while of our discussion, she started telling me that my whinning and begging pushes her away. I realize her POV is her POV but I do not believe I was whinning and begging. I do believe now that she will say whatever she has to to try and keep things how they are.

I cannot live like this much longer. She blames me for the way our S acts right now. She says he learns how to treat her based upon how he sees me treating her. I said, "Our S is smart and he sees what you do and acts accordingly."

Why do I feel as though I have blown it some how? I don't know. My emotions are all over the place.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EL

Hey SilverPool,

I just realized we are in the same city! Thanks for the advice. I suspect going dark right now is the right move. I am trying to get a hold of SH right now for a quick 5 minute follow up. Hopefully, I can get his advice soon. If I can't, I guess I will go dark.....

If I do not hear fron SH, then I am not sure if I should pull the trigger on the finances tonight, or wait another day.

This is horrible. I feel as though I am scheming against my W. I guess I am not scheming against my W, but I am against the WW.

Take Care,

EL

You didn't blow anything last night -- it was going to go haywire no matter what you did. Don't kick yourself about that.

Your financial plans sound good. My thoughts would be to go ahead and move forward with them, but it all comes down to what SH thinks.

EL:

FWIW -- I would tell you to get the finances under control and pull the plug. Also meet with the attorney asap. The reason I say this is to protect YOU and your rights. To sit passively by and think that your W will just go back to the status quo may be a detrimental assumption.

If you intend to remain in the house and have your S with you, the least you should do right now is to get the legal documents in order in case you should need it in a very timely manner. To be complacent right now may not be in your or your S's best interest.

You don't have to serve anything on W, but it's better to be prepared than to be caught flat-footed.

JMHO...

Extremely Lost


It's to be expected. She's in some pretty serious denial -- about the state of your marriage and about her contributions to getting you to that state.

Your actions will be what matters (it always was, really).


Ethically, you need to let her know right away or checks will start bouncing. Expect her to get **really** angry. Last night was probably just a trifle compared to what she'll pull when she sees you actively taking actions to match your words. She's probably going to accuse you of things you've never even heard of -- just steel yourself for it, recognize that it's mostly anger talking, be careful (take a tape recorder if you need to), and get out as soon as you can.


You called or your expect to take a loss? I'm confused here.


Smart idea. Make sure you have yourself covered with regards to the important things (like custody).


She doesn't really have many good options to go to, El. I'm sure she's scared and worried that the rug is being pulled out from under her. Expect her to fight as hard as possible to keep the status quo.

Take her concerns about physical abuse seriously and do not allow yourself to be in any situation where you can be falsely accused or tempted into 'borderline behavior' or you'll find yourself out of the house with a restraining order against you. For no other reason, this is a good idea not to push your luck being around her too much.


Because you hate conflict, you want to work this out like 'reasonable adults' and this just isn't how you ever wanted things to be. You're normal, in other words.

You're doing the best you can right now.


You're not scheming. You're setting and finally enforcing some realistic boundaries.

Mys

You don't believe it was whining because you see your communications as trying to provide hope for a possible recovery.

She's in withdrawal and thinks any efforts are futile. So she sees your attempts as being desparate, needy, clingy, whiny.

She also thinks you are bluffing now that you've changed your tone. We all know it isn't a bluff so you know what's next: My friend it's time to give her a huge dose of EL GONE DARK.

If she wants to just be left alone then give her what she wants. I agree with what silverpool said earlier. I'd follow that as much as possible. No more heartfelt communications. No more trying to convince MB is the way. No more discussion about what you once had and could have again. You're done. You no longer want to hold out hope. Any hope of this thing coming around have to be initiated by her. Without saying it you're bouncing her the ball while you go off to play solo on another court (with your S of course).

Work towards being self-sufficient. Try to do your own chores - laundry, dishes, cleaning, errands, groceries, etc. You could do some of hers as well so you don't come off looking mean but do it with minimal interaction with her.

What what's MWIL's motto during his darkest times: Calm, strength, quiet. BE STILL!

Let her rant all she wants. You don't react. You remain calm and walk away. Time to be VERY, VERY DARK.

The question is can you do it?

(((((EL))))))

Hang in there. THese steps seem to bring all the most painful parts into sharp relieff.

Follow SH's advice, and re-read Myschae's last post if you need to... Good advice in there, too!

Lots of peope here who care about you.

(((((EL)))))

EL....

Please take notice about something RIGHT NOW.....I lived your HE11 for almost 5 years....and as I approached where you are right now I had occasional "melt downs"....when my wife suddenly pulled out the "I'm scared of you" routine I should have known better. She went into court with her lawyer and told the judge that I was "not stable, threatened her, threatened to take children"....so..instead of just getting served divorce papers I was given a TRO where she was granted temp custody until I went to court....and then it was on....but......

you need to protect yourself and your family.....and be careful and COGNIZANT of her PERCEIVED danger...of course she is scared....

Hello Mys,



Right, I can see this pretty clearly. I can see that she does not take what I had to say too seriously, nor does she seem to think last night was profound or different. Heck, this could be her way of reacting to this stressful situation. I am not even sure if S made it to school today. They could be gone when I get home.



Yeah, I kind of wanted to run this by SH, but he has not gotten back to me today. I am not sure what to do here. Should I or should'nt I do this today? I have until Friday before it will be noticed that my check did not go into our account. However, I fear that my not telling her this tonight will loose the impact of last night's talk instead of actually driving it home.

I am also unsure if I should add that I feel she should pay for her cell phone (especially since it is in her name only now and she does not want, nor will she answer it when I call it). I also feel she should pay for her own car (which happens to be a Lexus and is $700 per month). I also feel she should pay for her own chiropractic and other medical bills as well as any entertainment such as buying CDs or eating out or whatever.

W has her own checking account that (before this past weekend) had $1900 in it. This would be enough to cover her time period before she found some kind of a job.

What do you guys think about all of this. Am I being way unreasonable, cold and cruel? I am sure it will come across as I am trying my hardest to punish her.



I have not called one yet, but I thought it would be an interesting addition to tonight if I did because I know what they would tell me - that we would loose money in a repressed housing market right now.



Thanks, but the question is do I mention this tonight. Do I mention the finances, the realestate agent and the lawyer all in one full swoop or do I do one at a time, such as the finances tonight, then the Lawyer in a few days and then the agent?



I understand that and this is the reality that was going through my mind when she threw out "finding her own place" to me several times throughout the last 6 months. Now, my reality has been confirmed. My point is that she was just saying this as a manipulation tactic. Learning this makes me wonder just what else is really a lie and a manipulation tactic. Could it be that she actually does have feelings in her heart for me, but tells me otherwise to manipulate me for some reason known only to her?



Yes, I will. I could not believe she would even go there and make this up. I spoke with a lawyer friend today who is getting me a good lawyer to talk with and I mentioned this to him. He advised me to not let myself get into any situation where she could falsely accuse me of something, call the cops and then have a great custody case. Remember, the potential OM is a cop in Phoenix. She could be hatching some kind of half baked idea with him on how to secure S for herself so she could ultimately move to Phoenix......



Thanks Mys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Is that what I am doing? Jeesh! Who knew.....

Take Care,

EL

well as I am old enough to be your Mum, I guess knowing that tells you that you can email me if you want a reply, and I wil get it in the same time zone and come to the board imediately. Disclaimer - If I am on line. Usually am at night until about 2/4am.

I haven't commented before as I think you are already in excellent hands. You were just so alone last night.

I and my husband offer support here if you need it, a phone call sometimes helps late at night when you want to give in and just do ro say what her BS seems to call for. My BS meter is set on high like all those who have been through it, so you can get an instant answer and the board will tell you the same.

Stick with it and know you have MB help right here in town, to do what SH says on spite of your fears and emotional exhaustion.

I can also recommend a Kick #ss lawyer, if that is what you need. He specialises in your two needs, business and family, So let me know. I have an email listed. He is dynamic, instant and incredibly powerful in court.

Linda

Hello MyAlias,


I guess she thinks I am bluffing because she was bluffing before about her threats to "move out." People tend to blame or see others in their own light based upon their own actions.

My going dark makes me a little uneasy. You see, when I have been upset with her in the past I have gone dark for a day or two and she saw this as my pouting. What is the difference between my going dark and pouting? I guess the point is I should not really care right now, right? I should go dark for me because any further communication on my end most likely would carry hope from my heart and lead to bitter dissapointment.



But this is pretty much what I have been doing, mixed with attempts at discussing things regarding our M. Now, I see it as more of the same, but the discussions will be regarding things I am doing to seperate. You see, I can't see a difference. Its how I feel right now, I guess. Before, I did try to be open and do things with her etc...



Right. I pretty much do this right now, other than laundry. She does not want me doing laundry because our clothes are mixed and she thinks I will mess her clothes up.



I don't know if I can do this. It will hurt deeply and I will feel VERY, VERY bad inside, but I could give it a shot.

Take Care,

EL

Telly, thanks for being there. It means a lot.

EL

Extremely Lost


I'm not talking about driving anything home, I'm talking from a purely practical sense. I don't know how much cushion you have in your checking account. (Btw, you might want to take half of your savings acct & put it somewhere secure). So, I'm more worried about her unknowingly sending out checks that aren't covered.

Think practically about this.


Don't pay the cell phone. Pay the lexus if you're on the loan (no sense trashing your credit). I don't know how medical bills work -- are they in your name because of insurance?


Good enough


I'm sure it will. I think you should pay for things you're enthusiastic about paying for or things that you are obligated to pay (if you're on the loan, for example). Her entertainment & cell phone don't apply.


Call only if you're serious about selling the house. Otherwise, you're just being manipulative and trying to get a rise out of her. If she's worried about the housing market, let her do the work.


Mention them only when you have your ducks in a row and you've made decisions. The financial thing is important because she has no reason to expect her checks will not be covered. The lawyer & real estate can wait until you figure out what's going on.


Just don't even go here. Seriously.


Yes, protect yourself. This may not even be some 'half baked idea' -- never, ever underestimate desperate people. She might become desperate to protect her fantasy that this is all your fault and none of her responsibility. Making you out to be a physically abusive husband in her own mind is great justification for all that's going on in her life. Just don't discard her POV and the danger it could pose to you. She'll probably accuse you of child abuse/neglect over the finance thing. Be prepared for it.

Protect yourself. Do it ethically and legally without punishment or anger. Then, no matter what happens, you can look back and be right with yourself.

Mys

Hello SMOMW,



Thank you for your input. I read a lot of your support for other posters. I am excited you are offering your experience to me. Thank you.

I have lived in ****** for basically +5 years and I did not think it could get worse until this past April when it did. WW said to me last night, "I started to pull away from you physically when I began to see who you really were. Couldn't you see that?" She seems to forget the fact that for three years of SF declining, she would tell me, "it is not you. It is me and I do not know what is wrong with me. I wish I did so I could fix it." Only about a year ago did she tell me that she was just telling me what she thought I wanted to hear back then because she felt I would just argue with her "like I always do." Now what kills me is that she is so upset with me because she claims she has told me so many times in our past that I was hurting her and that I would not listen. This is crazy. We are actually in trouble because I did listen to my W!

Yes, I will keep an eye out for any situation that could get me into trouble regarding her percieved danger.

Thanks for your thoughts.

EL

Hello Silverpool,

It is very kind of you to offer friendship, especially to someone in a horrible situation. It can drain you as well. I can tell you are a very giving person.



Thank you for such a kind offer.



Please do comment. I feel alone all the time right now.



Thanks. Sometime you need a different person's BS meter because mine is not callibrated at times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Truely comforting. Thank you.



I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

Best Wishes,

EL

EL,

Going dark isn't pouting. Going dark is remaining happy and enthusiastic about those things that make you such (your son, your friends, your family, your job, etc). Do those things, interact with those people with joy, happiness and vigor.

Be dark only with your W. Not pouting but distant, disconnected. Show her you are needing to be apart from her because being intertwined with her on a daily basis is much too painful. When necessary communicate with her be courteous (not pouty or angry) but keep your answers short (yes, no, maybe, I'll get back to you, I don't know, etc.). No long drawn out conversations no matter what. Anything similar to that and you'll appear you're willing to continue taking the hurtful behaviors she provides. You may need to start communicating important details through your lawyer. I know that could get expensive but no more than the D that may occur should this R end.

I think you may need to put a call out to the more experienced people who've done the dark thing. I'm not qualified to give you great examples based on your current in-the-same-home conditions.

Good luck tonight. Sorry I won't be around should you need more assistance. I will be back tomorrow.

Extremely,

I couldn't even read most of your posts because it seems you still want to win your argument with your WW. You can't, don't try.

My advice is Plan B. Do not communicate about anything other than your child, and in that case the bare minimum will suffice. Do not tell her about anything you are doing(lawyer, finances, living arrangements) but DO NOT hide the process you are going through. Telling your WW "I am going to a lawyer" is seen as an empty threat. Her finding out that you have sought legal advice, now that is ACTION. I told me WW that if she wanted to talk about us, it would take an NC letter and a promise to stop lying. If she wanted to talk finances, please have her lawyer call my lawyer. AND THEN SHUT YOUR MOUTH. SILENCE IS THE MOST DEAFENING CONCEPT TO A WS.

No "I love you's". No "Let's Make a Deal". No " I want to do what is best for you(WW). Show her you have a future and it might not include her.

Hello Mys,



You are right. She will not right any bills out until the weekend, so there really is no worry about a bounced check.



Paying for her car is setting a dangerous precedent. Don't you think? I don't drive such an expensive car. This was a real treat and sacrafice we made for her three years ago when we bought it.



What do you mean good enough?



Well, I am really not enthusiastic about paying anything for her at the moment. This is a woman that sells Arrbone and Tastefully Simple and gets the "house" to use these products. Then she charges the house full price and makes a profit for her private checking account off the house. WTF????? I have caught her on this and she became embarrassed over it, or it would still be going on!


Selling the house is always an option. I would rather sell the house than me be told through a legal seperation hearing that I need to move out of the house. SH and I agree that if I left the house then WW would have all she wants and me missing which would not help her see reality at this point.



You are VERY good Mys. I just got off the phone with SH. His quick advice was to gather legal information and do nothing until I have gathered this info. He told me to hold off the finance discussion until I had this legal info. He also told me to not go very, very dark. He wants me to be above board and gaurded. I am unhappy that it will seem like I will be complacent in status quo for a few days. SH says that this is actually not the case as you are gathering information for a seperation and are not being a doormat. He also told me that if the opportunity presents itsefl, I should try and throw in the idea that "it is rediculous to believe that your being in love with the father of your child would be a bad thing." I can't believe he wants me to continue conversation with her. I totally feel like I am being asked to go against the MB direct route through all of this.



SH agrees with this. He was not suprised by her comments. SH also commented on how she will be getting tons of advice right now and that she probably was on the phone ALL day.

On a brighter note, while I was speaking with SH, S called me to talk to me real quick. I guess they did not take off. This past weekend he and I worked on him remembering my cell phone so he can call me whenever he wants. He loves to call me now and feels like quite the big boy.

Thanks,

EL

Ah, ok.

I wouldn't tell her anything till you have secured what you want to secure (ie. savings)



I don't know. What's your backup plan if she doesn't pay it? Are you ok if it gets repossessed? Do you know if you can sell it? (Is there an AND on the title or an OR?) Or, if she refuses to pay it and it affects your credit are you going to be OK with that?

I'm not worried about precidents or her feelings or entitlement -- I'm worried about practical, real world, consequences if she decides not to pay and how you can protect yourself (if such things are important to you).


I mean: "Good so she has some resources to make her not totally financially dependent on you at this time. She's not exactly "flush" but at least she has some cushion to realistically pay some of these bills."


Charges the house? I have no idea what you're talking about.


True but regardless you can't sell without her consent if she's on the deed -- unless it's forced by the court (say, during a divorce). The chances are, if she's allowed to keep the house without you in it, the only way you can force her out of it is if you actually get the divorce and then she either has to pay you for your half or they will force the sale of the house.

You can't list the house or sell the house without her permission at the moment. (Check your legal advisor on this but I'm pretty sure.)


Nah. MB is about opportunities.

You've told her your plans. You don't have to blitzkrieg her. It's not going to make a difference if you do it in 2 days, 10 days or 2 weeks. If you are waiting months and months then there's a problem. You can slow down, take your time, and act with calculated deliberation. You're no longer acting on her whims -- you're following the beat of your own drum. You don't have to be rushed on her account. She'll still be there when you're ready.


I'm sure she is getting lots of advice.

Listen. I'm serious about the financial thing. Don't tell her till you've moved what you need to move to safe keeping. Don't take MORE than you're entitled to -- but don't leave that stuff laying around either.

In other words, guard your savings accounts, etc. Put stuff where she can't get at it.


She likely won't leave until she figures out a better option. I've no doubt she's probably had offers to stay with either her parents, family or even the OM's family.

Be Careful you do NOT want her to take your son out of state.

Mys

Hello Mys,

Boy, I am not good at this right now. I got home to S ontop of the kitchen table! I got him off and WW walks downstairs and is on her cell phone. She walks into our pantry to look at our family calendar and I hear, "Yeah, S has off those two days." When she is off the phone I ask, "What is going on with S?" She said, "What do you mean?" I said, "I heard you talking about days off." She said, "That was just dad and when S would have off because he is bringing the boys down to visit at the end of the month." I said, "Oh." Then I went to go upstairs to change and realized I forgot my cell phone on the table and that a friend of mine was going to call me. So, I went back to get it and W said, "Don't worry, I would not have looked at your phone." I said, "No, Mark is going to be calling me." Then I changed, got my lap top and came outside to go on MB.



There is nothing really in the savings I want to secure. There is probably $500 and not much in the checking account. In fact, I am going to need a check because I have an eye appointment and need contacts on Thursday, so I'll drain it a little more.

On the way home, I was given the number for a good lawyer. I'll call tomorrow. Not really sure how to pay this lawyer upfront because W has been in control of all the finances up to now.



Let me give you more of my background (as if you do not know the most about my sitch already). I have had three, what I would call big relationships in my life. The first I never married. We were just BF/GF. I ended up buying her a car (loan in my name/car in her name). Shortly after, she cheats on me and we break up. I lived through many months of ****** while I waited for her to pay her car payments. Eventually, she paid the car off.

The second big relationship was my last M. Near the end, my XW convinced me we needed to buy her a car. Her credit was not the greatest and so the loan had to be in my name alone. She wanted her name only on the title. I disagreed with this because of what had happened to me in the last relationship. She pushed and pushed and reasoned with me that she should not have to pay for other women's mistakes. I felt she was right and so I gave in. A year later, she cheats on me and we are finished. In the D I agree to take on EVERYTHING to keep my good credit (including 42 CCs I did not know about and they were maxed!). The only thing she became responsible for was her car payments. Unfortunately, the loan had to remain in my name (funny thing how banks really don't give a s**t about your personnel sitch.). Anyway, I suffered through years of her paying off this car. There were several months she was late and missed payments. It even came up as an issue in my current M when we built our first house and I the only blemishes I had on my credit rating were from this stupid car of my XW's.

In my current M, I was very skeptical when it came time to buy W a VERY nice and new car. She had bad credit when we first started dating. The stories are all the same (its from roomates I had that did not pay their fair share of the bills etc..). Anyway, we had been avidly trying to build up her credit and she really wanted to try and have the car in her name only. Unfortunately, this would not fly and it required my being on the loan. She wanted the car really bad. Now we are where we are.

I got to stop buying women cars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1



Absolutely! This was the whole purpose of setting up this account!



We have the joint checking and savings, which I am reffering too as the "house" and then she has her own checking account that she uses for herself and her Tastefully Simpe and Arrbonne. She would sell her products to the house at full cost and then reap the mark up into her private account instead of using her discount for the house. Heck, she would use her discount for the neighbors....



Yeah, this is another car situation. I am the only one on the loan and she and I are on the title.



Yeah, I guess you are right.



Got it under controll.



Exactly. I do not want her to run away with S!

Take Care Mys,

EL

So, is it normal for the WW to change habits the day after the BS plan Bs?

My W refuses to leave our house. I currently sleep downstairs on our couch, while she sleeps in our bedroom. I noticed today she pulled out her tarot cards. She was text messaging like crazy while I was home. She left stuff in her car and then went and got it when I was in S's bed with him reading a library book before bed. She also brought her purse upstairs, which she NEVER does. She leaves her purse downstairs every night. She ran out today and did something. Not sure what. Maybe she went and saw a lawyer? I am sure as SH says, she was most likely on the phone all day with her flawed support structure. I am sure someone must have suggested she seek a lawyer's opinion. It only makes sense.

Although this is my second M, this is my first following MB. I am not used to, nor are certain what to expect from WW right now. I guess she would be feeling a little nervous because she is uncertain of her future (her financial security has ALWAYS been the most important factor for her - she told me this in the beginning of our R and throughout). I also think she may feel a little bad because of our M seeming to end. However, I bet she also feels relief because she may feel free to do as she pleases right now. I guess it must be a pretty confusing time for her. My natural tendency is to want to comfort her because I love her. I know how stupid this sounds with what we are currently going through, but I can't help these thoughts. I am human....

I catch myself at first wondering what she is up to when I see these habit changes, but then I quickly remind myself that I have let go. I then feel a sense of calm, then a sense of relief and then I feel sorry for her. Not sure this is all normal on my end.

What are the opinions out there?

EL

Right now you should be loving your W. Tough loving your wife. Do not give in to what you think is kindness, being soft toward her now is not going to do anything other than increase her power in this triangle.

You need to be like a friend who speaks the truth to her without DJing, but with calm absolute confidence that it will help her.

Have you seen a father telling a son how to deal with honesty after a bad action? He would be firm and resolute. This is how you should be with anything you HAVE to say to W. (E.G. SH's suggested comment)


When WW rears its ugly head you can be just the same. No difference in your tone or demeanor, except all your words would be about doing the right thing for your family, none of them would be social small talk, all of them would - in as few words as possible - refute her nonsense.

BS are always subjected to fogspeak, do not fall for it. All apparently "sad or nice" things she says are poison, a very sweet tasting poison and if you imbibe, then your son is the one who will continue to be poisoned. She is poisoning his family life, the thing he needs above all else to live a good and fruitful life. You are an adult, you have a choice. he doesn't and you keep self talking about sucking down her sweet poison .... think of it this way. Your son needs you to make sure you are not conned into strengthening her marriage poison, by her acting.

If all her sadness and creeping to you every so often, (that makes you feel like you are scheming etc.) were true, she would be

1. at home sleeping in your bed

and

2. working very hard on MB.

That is the test you give it when you believe her and feel bad for her and guilty of being mean.

Is she doing the above? No? Then it is all an act.

Now you have a tool to test her actions and words when your love for her blinds you to the truth of her real actions and desires.


Linda

Good Evening SilverPool,



You are right. I get confused sometimes. I feel that the right thing is to go dark, very dark. However, SH tells me not to go dark, but to be gaurded. He tells me I can interact with her and to not ignore or be cold to her. However, I feel this is contradictory to plan B and would be sending a mixed signal or minimizing what I told her last night. I am confused.



Ok, thanks for the kidk. I tend to write what I am thinking and what is in my heart on this board. What I write is not necessarily how I will react to my W. For instance, my feeling sorry for her is not something I would tell her.



Yes, I have on my mind that I do not want her to think last night was just like all of our other talks and that I said what I said to manipulate her. I understand that you don't usually get a second chance to Plan B and have it really effective.

Tell me, do you think I can really make this "in-house" plan B really work for me?

What do you think of her change in habits? Is this to be expected?



I do want the best for my S. The best is for our family to make it through this and for him to see his M and D in love. You know, in 2005 in April, we took S to Disney Land and he tried to take both our hands and put them together the whole trip. He knew back then....



I understand what you mean. I just want to clarify that she IS sleeping in our bed. I am the one on the couch.

Tell me, with your experience what can I expect from WW over the next week? So far since I have been down on the couch tonight she has been down for a snack and then a smoke. She has said nothing to me.

Also, another poster, Mys, mentioned that I should be ready for WW to be testing me and increasing the "tests." Can you help me understand what tests she may be reffering too? I just want to be able to reckognize them for what they are.

Thanks for your kind input,

EL

Actually, I forgot to report on my last bit of communications with WW tonight. After I put S to bed, I walked into our bedroom and said, "I am going to need a check for Thursday as I have an eye appointment to have my eye infection checked out and hopefully get contacts. WW said, "You just spent $500 on S for the weekend and then charged the hotel room! There was only $800 total left over." I said, "Don't forget $75 for the swimming pass yesterday." She said, "Yeah, so there is not much left! I am not yelling at you about taking S on a nice weekend, I am just saying that you are spending money and do not have a lot left for the eye exam or contacts. Last month you bought running clothes from Dicks." I said, "Yes, I did." W said, "Fine. I'll figure out the checkbook tomorrow and see what is left." I walked away.....

Boy, is she going to hate it when she no longer is burdened with worrying about how much money I have left!!!!!!!!

EL

Your bed is where you sleep, she would be on the couch refusing to sleep apart from you. Asking you to come to the marital bed.

"Tests" Think sweet and sour and then sour and sour - anything she has already done and anything you haven't seen. You pass the test by not wavering. Keep the tone and attitude, don't let her off anything and don't fall for her "pain and hurt" unless she passes the test.

You are not in Plan B yet - in or out of the house.

Plan B requires a plan, a letter, and a means to deal with the WS, financially, childwise, legally during the plan B period. You are getting ready for if you do need Plan B. Get your ducks in a row, keep investigating, learn all you can. It will help you to know what you are dealing with, knowledge is power and you have felt powerless for long enough. I hope your new lawyer works out better.

You are holding your own and not succumbing to her anger, lies, silence, tears, cruelty or "sweet poison" SH has you in what I call a holding pattern. I went through it many times over the last four years. It is a time for gaining/regaining control of your emotional response to them and their fogspeak. It is also a time when your stature will grow in her eyes.


Linda

Extremely Lost


You're doing fine. That was good for you to question about your son.


Heh. Well, they say bad things come in threes -- maybe you're off the hook for this one. *nudges you playfully*

Anyway, I get your point. Don't pay the car if you don't want to do it. *shrugs* Given your history, it's understandable.


Right, I remember that she has it for her own money. How much was her monthly allowance for it?


Oh. That is really weird/kinda shady.


If you're the only one on the loan, then I would think it's really probable that the house will go to you. On the other hand that might be at the end of a really Looonnnngggg process - best avoided. Ask the lawyer about what your options are. Since she's not on the loan.. maybe you can get out from under it.


You too.


I would imagine so -- just about everything is normal, really.


She might have. It does make sense. She has a lot to loose if the marriage ends. You need to figure out where you stand w/regards to a divorce in different scenarios. (That way you'll have an idea where she would stand, too.)


Well, like you, she might feel some relief from the status quo -- as much as that seems in her favor. It's time you both explored options for resolution -- fix it or end it.

I only hope that your community is such that her opportunities for settlement aren't too cushy (ie. cushy enough to incent her to leave rather than to stay).

Which is not to say that I want her to stay under duress. Like SH said, if she could get you out of the house, keep her lifestyle, and keep primary custody of your son (and maybe someday insert some other man in your place) then that would be awfully 'easy' (easy as in not a lot of work/change) for her. I really believe that if she's determined to go, she'll go. On the other hand, if both paths look like a LOT of work and divorce requires her to: get a full time job and still have her lifestyle drastically reduced, stay in the community so you can see your son, give up her nice house that she's worked on a lot, loose time with your son, etc. Then, perhaps she'll 'see reality' as SH puts it and realize that working on the marriage is hard work -- but so is the alternative and the outcome for your son weighs in the favor of you two staying together.


She's not 'up' to anything mysterious, El. Don't make this more adversarial than it is by conjuring plots and shadows. Anyone in her position would be trying to figure out where s/he stands and what the options are so she can make a decision. . She's probably trying to either 1.) make an actual decision (a Good Thing) or 2.) figure out how to delay or avoid making a decision because she doesn't like her options.

Goodness knows, you do enough of that to be able to relate to that behavior in spades, don't you? Mmmm?


Her trying to either be super nice and give you "minor" concessions so you'll back off, "have hope again, and let her continue as much of her current lifestyle as she can grab OR being super nasty to try to drive you away.

I suspect she might flip flop between the two. Try the nice -- if you don't take the bait -- flip into the nasty ("See, I knew it wouldn't work...")

Right now, I want you to hold out for honest effort to resolve ALL the problems in a meaningful time period. No more 2 years waiting to figure out if SF will be possible, etc.

Gotta go to class. Good luck,

Mys

Thank you SilverPool,



Got it. Thanks for the clarification.



Sounds straight forward enough. I am guessing it is not as easy as it sounds.



You are right. I have officially not began a plan B based upon the definition. I guess I have just announced that I am going to do a plan B to WW. I must follow up with actions now or be lost in her control forever. I hope this lawyer is compassionate to my cause. Anyone I talk to (other than MB people) seem to be in the mind set of following through to a D now that I am where I am. I don't understand why they can't understand that I am actually doing this to SAVE my M. I can't help but believe that WW and her support group is most likely thinking I am following through with a D as well since this seems to be the popular opinion. I guess this is another thing where my actions will speak louder than my words (or their hear say).



I see. Describing it as a holding pattern makes sense to me. Thanks for that. So, you think she is actually gaining some respect for me? I feel as though she is hating me more.

What is your opinion on her habits changing over night? Her keeping her purse and things in her car until she had a clear opportunity to bring them in and up to her/our bedroom. I can only guess she saw a lawyer, or apartment hunting or job hunting. Also, she has avidly participated in our home owner's association and is vice president of it. She has NEVER missed a meeting in three years to the detriment of a lot of family things including missing important family things. Last night I realized there was supposed to be a meeting at 6:00 pm as well as another meeting tonight at 6:00 PM. I got home at 5:55 PM. I realized all of this at 7:30 PM and she was on our front porch. I opened the door and asked, "Didn't you have an HOA meeting today?" She said, "6:00 PM, but I did not know when you were going to be home." I said, "What about tomorrow?" She said, "I think it may be canceled." I said, "S's parent reading meeting for his school is tomorrow at 6:00 PM." W said, "I would rather go to that." I said, "Is it something we can bring S to?" W said, "I suppose we could bring a coloring book and crayons for him." I then went back inside. I did not know what to think because she could have called me to find out when I would be home. S called me at 4:30 pm. Also, when I could not make it home in time before, she had always brought S and I would pick him up on the way home. It just did not make any sense to me? Is she depressed? What gives? Is she worried about not being seen as a homebody for custody reasons later on? This is a woman that would not miss an HOA meeting in the middle of August when I competed in my first triathlon in our home town. All the neighbors on the block got up and got their kids up to go and tailgate and cheer on four of us from the neighborhood early on a Saturday morning, but my WW could not miss the HOA meeting for something I trained 3.5 months straight for. I found out later that even the rest of the people in the HOA meeting told her to go and she refused.

What do you think is going on here?

All of her text messaging yesterday night throughout the whole night did not really bother me and I found that it was only a fleeting though in my mind initially when her phone would go off. Then I would quickly remind myself that I have let go. It seems this helped me and I became calm again.

Please help me understand what I am going through right now. I reckognize the initial signs of depression in me. I feel as though someone is sitting on my chest when I try to breath. I have the overwhelming feeling that I don't care much about anything right now. I tried to run my normal 5 miles this morning and stopped and walked several sections of it. I just could not get into it both mentally or physically.

What is going on with me?

Thanks,

EL

EL, I just wanted to state quickly that your W is staying home because she' protecting herself from being locked out of her home. She's squatting if you will. I would imagine she's going to be very guarded when it comes to leaving the home to the point where you could change the locks.

Didn't you say her name isn't on the mortgage? I think I'd feel I'd have less legal options of getting back in if my name weren't on the loan for the home.

So how long is this holding pattern going to last? How long is it going to take for you to have all your ducks in a row?

I see your W as a ticking time bomb ready to throw everything she's got at you so she can keep what she has.

What are the steps you need to get things in order? What's your plan?

She might think it would affect custody. It might be advice from her lawyer or friends.



She's weighing her options -- which any reasonble person would do. You need to weigh yours, also. The best way to figure this out is to figure out what she might have been told is possible, probable, and unlikely.



You know, I suspect that your 'feeling sorry' for her is really an extension of you wanting to reach out to her (the woman you love, your wife) for some kind of comfort in this difficult time. It's perfectly reasonable for you to feel sad, depressed, angry, lonely, scared, etc. Try to take care of yourself and be nice to yourself. Try to detach as much as you can.

Mys

Do what Georgia Guy did over the car - he took his wife's car back to the dealer and cashed it out - it was a nice car too. His wife still didn't wake up, but at least he wasn't stuck paying for a car he bought for a princess, but treated him like trash. Princess got dethroned with that one.

Your wife needs to drive a Sentra for a while, me thinks!

PS you can always buy another Lexus if and when she wants to be married to the man paying for the car!

I think this car, along with the home and her living off your good graces, is going to become a source of contention for you. You will resent her seeing her drive off in a car that is that expensive. Heh, I would imagine you already have many of those thoughts today.

If she's done working on the M then all the perks that come with being M'ed to you should be taken away. She only needs what is necessary to survive. Sell the car, get her something less expensive, more economical and inform her the cash saved is now being deposited into a tax-free college fund for your S.

Ok guys,

I went to the lawyers and got the information. Basically I am screwed....

Apparently, Indiana law is not too conducive to MB's style.

Basically, here are my choices:

1) Stay as we are.

I cannot force WW to leave house. I cannot force her to get a job. I can take over handling the money I am making and I could say to her that she now needs to pay for her cell, the car and her entertainment. However, in the courst I will look like a real bad guy and it will come across that I tried to make her make her poor.

The lawyer I spoke with believes WW has already spoken to a lawyer based off some of the things she has already said and done. My lawyer said that if I do the finance thing, WW will most likely file for a D because it is to her advantage. Also, it is to WW's advantage to not get a job right now as she will be awarded more in maintenance. Indiana does not have alimony, but it has up to 3 years of maintenance to allow the homeaker a transition period and to maintain the same life style they have become accoustom too. It is also usually the case that the homemaker is awarded primary custody of the child.

If W files for a D then I will be asked to live elsewhere temporarily by the courts, not her. I will be responsible to not only pay for all the bills, but also all her legal fees. She still will not have to get a job. The only thing different will be that I will be out of the house. Some reality!!!!!

As a side note, WW's lawyer will push for several independent evaluations of our Company, which could cost $15k - $30k each. I will be responsible to pay for all of this as I am the only one with an income.

Our S will be temporarily awarded to WW and stay in our existing home. I may get some slight visitation.

However, my lawyer said that if I could get WW to take a job, this would reduce her maintenance, but she most likely will not do this due to advice from her lawyer.

If I stay as we are right now and if we get to the point of no return (before we/she files for D) and I agree to move out on my own and can get her to agree to a 50/50 split of S's time, and live like this for a minimum of 2 months, the courts will usually award 50/50 custody. Otherwise, it is most likely she will be awarded primary custody and I will just get visitation. The minimum visitation required in this situation is every other weekend and Wednesday nights for dinner!

2.) Legal seperation:

This options sucks. I will be the one to have to live in a different house. I will still have to pay for everything. The only advantage is that there is no more accumulation of marital assets or debts beyond the agreement date. However, I would still pay maintenance, child support and the bills. No life lesson in this choice!!!!!!!

3) Divorce:

I don't have to say how this is really not an option for me.

Basically, my lawyer summed it up that in the short term, I am screwed, but in the long term (beyond 3 years) WW is screwed because maintenance cannot go beyond 3 years.

So, how the ****** do you other people get to actually do a plan B? I feel so stuck and screwed right now. WW is definitely up to something. She has her purse on guard up stairs in her office and is working on getting our financial picture up to date. I believe she is may be moving towards a D. I don't blame her. Heck, if I were in her fog and had such a great outlook ahead of me, I might file!


HELP!HELP!HELP!HELP!HELP!

EL

Tonight we had to go to S's school for a parent "how to help your child learn to read" session. All of us went. S sat in between us. W and I did not say much. S wrote a note "I (picture of a heart) you mommy and dad."

After putting S to bed, I went to WW and said, "I need a check for tomorrow." She said, "we have $300 available and thats it and I still need gas and milk before you are paid again on Friday. Why can't you just wait until Friday when you get paid again?" I did not bring anything up yet regarding finances due to the news I got from Lawyer. It sucks. It is almost like I do not want to poke at the sleeping lion, even though she is legally free to not work, take my money, rip my heart out and hurt our S for the rest of his life. None of it seems fair at all.

EL

Ok this why I offered the advice of a kick #ss lawyer who could help - now you know why.

My son has just moved out of his house and his WW is there with the kids. He stayed and encouraged her to get a job, told her he loved her so much he would not desert her when she was out of work, The real reason, so she could get a mortgage eventually and buy "the house she loved so much", getting him off the mortgage. I wouldn't let him leave then even though she did all she could to "test" his boundaries and neither would our lawyer. He told him - You tell her " if you want a single life, you move out" DS knew he would eventually have to leave, but our lawyer gve him a Divorce in Indiana 101 free of charge, so he could make some decisions. Our lawyer used to sit on the Family Court. Once she is settled in the new career and has come to rely on him being "helpful", and has signed agreements that preclude her getting any kind of career support. he will consider the time to do a plan B. Sadly he really does seem to have given up on her now, but it is early days .....

You cannot do a plan B and safeguard yourself financially unless she leaves, so your best bet is to encourage and help her get a job and an apartment. Sometimes when the law is tough, you have to vary from imediately trying to pursue a fast MB and survive financially, just so you can continue to fix the marriage later.

I call it being in a holding pattern. My son has to watch her go on dates and not react to her angeer or sad stories or his own desire to be with her. He is doing this in order to get her to stay in a job (she was fired for having an affair wuth her boss ( him too) ) and agree to house disposal at a laster date. He is paying her the amount the state would require. Hisi kids go to him every w/e but as he is sooo nice to her, they are not bound to the state restriction. He is paying for her basic cell phone, on my account. He gets to deduct from the child support cost of health insurance, contributions to child care etc). If you email me I will send you the web page to go to work out exactly what you would have to pay. I gave him the same info and our lawyer told him what the legal deal was AND the ways to get around it.

Hlep her to get a job, especailly with training, help her to get an apartment of you want her to move out. Sound as if you are not the one pushing the divorce. Sound as if you are prepared to wait and not push her. Not classic MB, but good legal advice. Also we keep records of what the kids say when we call about what is happening and what she says on the background to them, with the date and time. things like speeding tickets with the kid in the car count for custody. you also need to get her to agree on the busine4ss value, pushing her with a lawyer will surely make her run up bills. Our lawyers advice was to be as nice to her as possible to get her to agree to an amicable separation if she pushed for him to move out. Otherwise don't move out.

Don't bother to email me I will find it and post it here. I am sure they will not mind.

Linda
--

http://family.findlaw.com/child-support/support-guidelines/le18_8_1.html

Here is the link, so you don't have to pay him to find out how much.

This is the financial calculation listing page and you can use the links on the left to see how to do it and the rest of the info.

Linda

Thanks for the info SilverPool,

This is just crazy! How can it be so backwards? Being nice to her will take away from the step I just took. I might as well suck it up and go back into plan A. Eat crow and wait it out for WW's "distraction" to die food poisoning or something. Meanwhile I can get a lobotomy so I can live with myself. Atleast this way I would have full access of my S.

However, I think I have triggered something now with WW. She is way to quiet and accepting of things and seems to be "planning." She thinks she is so sneaky, but she really is a bad liar. We used to joke how she could never really lie well. However, I will give her that she has learned to lie to herself and her sole really well these days. Almost proffessional!

Something else from the lawyer (and she is supposed to be one of the tops in Indianapolis), I mentioned how WW said she is afraid for her safety physically. The lawyer just shut her eyes and shook her head. She said, "This is bstarting to become a disturbing trend I am seeing. WW are waiting for the opportunity such as your standing in their way to get to their car door or to get to the house door and then calling the police and reporting domestic violence. Unfortunately, this is all it takes to get you processed and then you loose custody of your child. Its unfair, but currently effective." I asked her if lawyers are actually suggesting this to people. She said she would like to think they are not, but would be nieve to tell me some were not telling their clients this. She said, "Be VERY careful. You must turn the other cheek to everything. You can expect tape recorders everywhere. Do not take the bate and get into an argument with her. Speak calmly. Do not provoke or give her any excuse."

I can't believe it! I am so screwed. There is no real opportunity for a good MB plan here. I was figuring it out and once I take into account maintenance, child support and a probable monthly payment for what will be estimated as half the marital property, she will be getting almost 65% - 70% of my take home. I will not be able to pay for my house, the business or much of anything. I will be ruined....

EL

(((((EL)))))
I wish that I had some words of wisdom for you, but I am no expert on the law. In Maryland, things are pretty much 50-50 unless one spouse is Stay at Home.

I tell you what, I think there should be some kind of stipulation that, if you can prove your spouse cheated, then the gavel swings in your direction; only in a dream world. I'm so sorry to hear this news, hang in there. Definitely take the lawyers advice to heart and take great care in your actions and reactions.

I read your comment about having trouble during your run; don't think on it too much, it's just all of the bull-crap in your head. Have you tried relaxation exercises. Nothing too hokey, but things like sitting with your back straight, lowering your chin to your chest until you feel a stretch in upper back, then very deep, slow breaths. Also, maybe look up progressive muscle relaxation. I learned about it in college and have incorporated into my life; it helps when your trying to fall asleep. Visualization exercises may help too; imagining your 'happy place' and deep breathing. Sometimes I get carried away in the car and lose focus of my (too fast) driving. Anyhoo, some suggestions, take what you want, leave the rest.

H is waiting in bed for me so this will have to be short.


Aw man, I was afraid something like this might happen. I'm so sorry to hear this!

{{{{{{{{{{{{EL}}}}}}}}}}}

Mys

Can you spell "holding pattern" that is what my boy went into, it was ****** and he is a lot better now he is not living there and seeing it all the time, but - it did get her to be agreeable to making their own agreements.

Your lawyer seems to have told you all of the downs - good - you need to know, all of the cautions and none of the ways to circumvent the downs. Maybe it is not her style to offer help or suggestions, not so good for billing, to have the client do it themselves. (get amicable agreement with WS).

I think you need to not do anything, stay in holding pattern for a while until things normalize in your head, you do get used to it and you will get emotionally stronger the more times you do not respond with DJs, LBs or AOs. These are also things she can hold against you. Didn't you say the OM had an OW. Or am I mixing my threads?

You are not in Plan B. so you are not going backwards, you are still in Plan A but you are using more stick now. Telling her to Sh## or get off the pot is not plan Bing, it is like the stick of Plan A. So not chasing her out, and protecting what you can is not plan Bing her, it is just a holding pattern to keep your finances safe so you can control where they go and she cannot grab them and squander them. You are protecting her against herself, if you are her sole source of financial support. You are preventing her killing the golden goose.

Linda

PS Running - This is just normal stress reaction. I teach energy work, which is like visualisation, and self healing - I offer this to you free - LOL and it is effective if taught over the 'phone. You can use when you run, walk, rest - are keeping calm etc.

Let me know.

Extremely Lost


I don't think that a court will look down on you for not paying for her cell or her entertainment. The car might be a different story.


Ugh. That really doesn't seem fair. She's not responsible for any of her support??


Did you ask why you'd be awarded only "slight" visitation? That doesn't seem logical to me.


So, is the difference between legal separation and divorce that the maintenance goes on longer? In other words, does the maintenance that you pay during separation "count" towards the 3 year clock?


Talk to SH before you do anything.



Isn't there some cap on how much of your income they can take?

This really sucks. I'm so sorry, {{{{{{{{{EL}}}}}}}}}

Mys

And now you know why I am still married. If you are a high income guy but not rich in assets, married to a SAHM, and want to spend time with your kids, then divorce is just not an option. If you ever find yourself in NY or New England on business, give me a shout and we will drown our sorrows over a few beers together. I would say I would jog with you, but until I get to the doctor tomorrow and get the test results back I am forbidden to exercise.

It certaintly doesn't sound fair. But then I don't know any systematic way for dealing with divorces involving SAHMs that *are* fair. Argh.

I think what would begin to approach fairness is that infidelity is considered in custody and support decisions.

So if a SAHM get's bored and has an affair, then she becomes the visiting parent and has to take care of herself, or have the OM support her.

One of the biggest inequities in the system is that fidelity is NOT considered in most states.

If someone just gets tired of their marriage, without doing any work to build a better marriage, I certainly do not see them as a fit parent or entitled to the efforts of their spouses labor.

So perhaps we can address the fairness issue by addressing the very things that are currently kept out of most courts, the details of the affair.

Where that's been tried, it's mostly been considered to come out as less fair, not more, due to the difficulty of providing hard evidence of anything; the whole matter simply devolves to a mud-slinging match.

That could mean that it's ineffective, or it could mean that it was poorly implemented.

If there was mudslinging, it's because the courts allowed it. That seems an easy issue to address.

It doesn't seem too difficult, in these days to track the activities of a wayward spouse by having the courts to order the cell phone providers to provide records of a suspected waywards phone activities, and other things such as catching a wayward spouse in the act.

Or even profession evaluations on their comittment to working with a spouse during court mandated marriage counselling.

While you can't make someone want to build a marriage, I do believe you can gauge where they are during such sessions.

If a spouse is in an affair, a trained counsellor should be able to note that finding, and have it be a matter of court record.

Likewise, claims of abuse can be confirmed or refuted and the whole nine yards.

Divorces take a long time anyway, so why not have the couple under professional evaluation before their court date by an impartial 3rd party?

I believe it can be done. Just because it has failed before doesn't mean it's not possible.

ROFL. I wish that were possible to do accurately, but it's not even close.

Edited to add:

EL is strung out enough already. If you want to talk about how you think divorce courts should work, that's great, but please put it on a new thread and be careful not to threadjack EL.

Fair enough

Enlightened_Ex

I wonder if you would give your opinion on what you think EL should do -- you've been through this in his approximate situation. The inequities in the system aren't likely to be remedied in time to help him (unless he just decides to bide his time).

I'm not sure what to advise him to do at this point. The marriage builder in me wants to say "Hold out for a partnership marriage and don't settle for less!" but I'm not a parent, and I don't know what it's like to experience part time parenting (or even full time parenting). I think you have a unique perspective on what the future might look like down that road, if you're willing to share it with him.

I know you feel treated unfairly by the courts but I wonder if you can speak to your experience now -- a little time has passed. Has the financial stuff worked out? Are you able to coparent effectively with your ex? How is your relationship with your dear daughter?

Mys

I've spent the last 30 minutes reading this, and I'm not so sure how much I can contribute.

My XW left to pursue her affair partner. When I still had money, I worked with SH, but the money ran out while I was trying to support her with voluntary CS as well as pay off the debts, etc.

You certainly can not make her leave, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try to build the best financial situation you can.

When my XW left, she was no longer a SAHM, because two years prior, I said that either her spending had to drop, or she had to get a job that supported her mad money desires, so she had been back to work.

If you are in a situation where your accounts are close to zero balance right before payday and she is driving around in a $700/month Lexus, it's not unreasonable to make some changes financially.

Perhaps what you need, or at least can pursue is not marital advice, but financial advice.

Ask your lawyer if credible financial counselling has any weight with the courts. Say if you were to look at the Dave Ramsey stuff and evaluate your finances and determine that either your standard of living must go down, or the income must go up, so that you have more than just your feelings about her affair driving the train.

Either way, just like surviving an affair, you have to become a great partner, regardless how the marriage turns out, you need to be a great financial manager.

So perhaps you approach the logistics of the situation from that perspective.

I certainly can't tell you how to MB, as I failed in that arena. But I hope you find my suggestions helpful.

How are things for me myschae asks?

The financial stuff worked out long before the divorce was final. We were married 9 years on paper and I make 4x to 5x what she does. The $1k/month I currently pay in CS is a bargain compared to her cost of living. So I don't feel sorry for her family or the OM for having to pick up that burden.

In her haste to leave, she put an artificially low value on the home, and after asking several times if she wanted an appraisal, she said no and left $25K on the table.

When I refinanced the home after the divorce, I gave her $7K, paid off all the debt that I hadn't paid off during her affair and divorce. (That's right, I paid off close to $30K in debt while divorcing against the advice of my lawyer.)

We split the debts based on income she got 1/2 of the marital portion of my retirement, but by leaving that extra $25K on the table, we essentially split the debt and assets 50/50.

I ended up with joint custody, but not as much parenting time as I would like. Things are hit and miss with co-parenting. She is the one who is still very dark, and as I've described, all but hides when I drop off DD at her apartment.

I have a great relationship with DD, I had her all day Monday as she was off for Columbus day and I did the work from home deal. I had her again Tuesday and we grilled out as well as boiled up some crab legs (a new favorite of hers, introduced by her dear old dad.)

Last years parent teacher conferences were alone. XW scheduled one for me and one for herself so we wouldn't go together. I'll see how this year goes.

I do believe it will get better. It may never be what you want, but you make of your situation all you can.

Ultimately, regardless what happens in court, you have to be the best parent you can be.

I chose not to fight with my XW in court over custody, because as I've alluded to and you've witnessed, the deck is stacked against you.

Instead, I plan and am largely succeeding at winning the heart of my DD. Not at the expense of my XW, by tearing her down, but rather by being the best dad that I can be. I'm not Disneyland dad (but we did go to Disneyworld last year, LOL) as I often say no. But I am a loving, caring, compassionate dad (and modest too) who takes an interest in her life, her education and her upbringing.

She has a dad who will cook a meal for her and sit down with her and ask about her day at school, or what's going on with her friends. Who will ask if she wants a drink, yet remind her than she is not to leave her dirty cups and dishes, or clothes all over the house.

I care enough about her that I don't give her everything she asks for, but I do give her an allowance, and other than requiring that she save 10% and give 10% to the church, she is essentially free to handle the remainder as she sees fit.

Sometimes, the most loving word we can tell someone we love is no.

EL,

In Indy you do not HAVE to pay maintenance - if she has a child who can go to school and has had a job that she knows, then she can be required to go to work. You can encourage this, my son did it using Plan A. He knew it would benefit them if she stayed and him if she left. she has an earnings record, you were talking about her abusing discounts to the house ... you lawyer does not seem very positive or you have taken what might happen as if the court already did it.

It is not definite that any court would order it, it is a possibility. I am fortunate, I have known our lawyer for many years and worked with him in a professional setting, so I know him and my referrals usually get a free first interview, so they can decide if he is what they want. So that was helpful for my son, I never thought I would ever be referring my own son and just refer people who ask this Lawyer because of the work I have seen him do..

Do not take what your lawyer says is possible, as fact. You wife may not want any valuations, it depends in how it is played. Your son will see you a certain amount of days by law, and if you are nice to your wife you can get her to agree to more, as it will give her time alone with OM. this is all presuming she doesn't turn around. Don't feel beat up - nothing has happened yet? You have more information, given to you in a frightening way, and she has had her "I'm leaving" bluff called.

The more days she agrees to let you have your son the less you have to pay her. This is deducted from the calculated amount . The court might just as well say," well you need to go to work, get back selling the stuff you sold before". I am sad that you got the facts and some maybe's, as facts.

I know of one case where a Transsexual challenged his/her wife for custody. They went to court, she had the Indy Super lawyer. the T* had list of info about her infidelity all through their marriage. The children were interviewed and the T* won full custody. Right here in Indiana. Adultery will do no good in divorce, in fact the Family court Judges frown upon it being brought up,this is a no fault state. (can you guess whom likes to go and sit in courts and listen) In custody hearings it can count, especially if you get Judge Payne I think it is. Also any behaviour that the children find bothersome, and speeding tickets while kids are in car, suicide attempts or pretends. I hired a PI for my son, not thousands either, hundreds, so that told us where she was going and what she was doing. Lots of things can help you.

My son had to leave, as she was making their lives heck AOs DJs openly texting with her dates. Yelling etc. But he took the good car which is in his name. She cannot get credit - sound familiar? She has always laughed at me, as my husband was driving longer to work, he always had the best car - she laughed at me and insisted my son get her a high price car - well she ain't got it anymore. He just waited until she was asleep right before he left. Never mentioned taking it. then he took all the keys to the car and replaced them with his older (paid for) car keys. She knew she couldn't pay the car off. So he told her, "it can be repo'd or I can pay for it and drive it." He is sending me the Excel worksheets for you to really look at what the child support would be. Do not expect maintenance - it is not common - all the D sahms I know were made to go to work, unless they had children under school age.

My advice is not to talk about divorce with anyone. Tell your lawyer to pause it. Plan A your wife, and even if she is cake eating, she will drop her guard. Either the A will die. (Did you tell me about OM's OW? Have to go and read?) or she will have to go pursue the divorce, and you will be able to work a great plan A so she stops being suspicious. It is in your hands.

You know how to say - "I want to save this marriage, I am sick of lawyers and divorce talk. I will prove to you I am what you want and can look after you better".


Anyway - that's my rant for now - sorry, *climbing down from soapbox* ouch I need new knees.

Linda

EL, I am so sorry, I would have divorced her years ago. But now i would get a PI and track her sleeping with the OM. Film it. Like I told you months ago. you need all you can get for court.

I am sorry you put up with the lying cheating ho for so long.....wayyyyyyyy too long if you ask me.

HELP! HELP! HELP! HELP! HELP! HELP!

I got served papers today at work at 4:00 pm. I was in a meeting and walked right out and drove home. I could not believe it. She had went Tuesday and filed for D. I am floored. My heart is ripped out.

I do not know what to do now. I tried to talk with her today. She felt I put her into a corner and said MB or leave. Says she filed to protect herself from me kicking her out and taking our S away from her and keeping the house. Well, the D papers say that while this is all working out, she gets the house, S and I leave but pay CS, maintenance, bills etc.. She also wants fair division of property. There is also a demand that I do nothing with finances (buy things, start an off shore account). She actually pointed this clause out to me and mentioned off shore accounts!!!! Is she living a fantasy world or what?

I tried to talk to her and explain that I did not put her into a corner Monday night. I did not demand she MB. I said that because she choose to not investigate ANY type of plan to save our M, I was left with no choice but to agree with her that she finds another place to live.

I told her I do not want a D. I asked and tried to talk it through that we should try to investigate something to make our M great together since we NEVER actually worked together to make our M great before. Either one or the other worked while the other did not before. I asked how can we D without actually having both of us try (at the same time) to make our M great.

She finally said, "I am done talking about this. There is nothing new you are saying. I am not going to go back and forth on this. I am going to take a bath." I sat there destroyed for about 5 minutes. Then I walked up to the bathroom and she was running water and was just putting her cell phone away (most likely from texting).

Then I tried to talk to her again and lost it and cried. She said, "You are where I was two years ago and I am now at the point where I have moved on. You would not listen to me over the last 5 months that I did not like MB and did not believe in it, yet you kept pushing me. Well, maybe SH can help you now!" I said, "Please don't throw any more daggers. Its not necessary. I am already crushed." I also said, "How can you be so unemotional through all of this?" She said, "You have no idea! Don't you dare try and tell me I am not emotional. You have no idea. I am just not emotional in front of you!" I said, "Why? I am the father of your child?" She said, "Well, I don't trust you so I am not going to show you my emotions. I guess I'll drain the water since you are not going to let me take a bath." I left her alone and went and held our S.

After a while I brought S down stairs and made him dinner. W came down and sat with S. I kept loosing it (crying) so I kept going in the other room. I came back into the kitchen and W and S were gone. She brought him upstairs into our bed. I went upstairs and said, "You are watching TV up here?" W said, "Both S and I are not feeling well and I asked him if he wanted to. Besides, we thought we would give you some alone time." NO ******!!!!!! You are about to give me a ton of ALONE FRIC**** time!

I went back downstairs and then went back upstairs and asked her for 5 minutes. She came downstairs and I said, "Look, the document you sent me says I need to be in court next Tuesday. I am going to have to get a lawyer." She said, "You already got one." I said, "No, I got a consult, but did not retain one." She said, "Its the same thing." I said, "Well, I am going to have to pay a $1500 retainer." She said, "That is rediculous! I did not have to pay for my consultation and my retainer is only $700. You are getting ripped off!" I said, "Look, I am not making this up. I need to pay $1500 before Tuesday. This means I need to now handle where my check goes." W said, "Great! so now you just spent the last $300 I had in the checking account and I am left with nothing!" She actually got chocked up. I said, "That is not what I am saying. I need to stop the direct deposit and open a new account." She said, "That is stupid. The money goes into a joint account and you can see where it goes. I have the bills setup to be directly taken out of the checking account. So, you think I have $1800 in my checking and this should just be fine for S and I. Great! Nice!" I said, "What does this mean: Temporary care, custody, and parenting time of the minor child of the parties." She said, "It means that this is S's house." I said, "It is S's house, your house and my house. Can't we agree to 50%/50% custody?" She said, "I told you I am not trying to leave the State. I am not going to try and go to Wisconsin. You are his father and you should be a part of his life." I said, "Then why can't we agree to 50/50?" She said, "I am not going to agree to anything with you and I am not going to let you bully me into anything."

She went upstairs and now I am crying.....................

Please help!!!!!!!!

She is a controlling sneaky ho. I am so sorry you have to even be associated with such a person, she is horrible and just cares about the money.

Get on board with your attorney i guess. I wish you had done that years ago.....I am sorry. Be as good to your precious self as you can. Dont do anything stupid because you feel trapped. Once you get past all this you will find a loving woman who you would not meet had you stayed with this cheater and liar.

Relax tonight and call the attorney tomorrow. Good luck. In the long run you will be OK.

Ok here is the good lawyers name and number Dennis F McCrosson 317-791-7800.

I don't know if he will be free, to help you but he might be able to give you some advice.

Call him tomorrow, use my name Linda, the English woman, I don't want to put my whole name on here.

He will set you straight and explain everything. What you got is what she is asking for, not definately what she wil get.

Or you can email me and we can talk. I will try to get hold if him at home.

I just left a message on his home phone. If he calls me back I wil ask his opinion - strangely enough he is pro marriage, suggested all sorts of things my son could do before he gave up and relegated himself to divorce..

I don't know if he has any magic, but it is the least I feel I can do.

Linda

Thank you SilverPool,

I am so crushed right now. I love her so much (I know a lot of people are going to call me stupid or something). I can't help but feel throughout this whole thing there has been a tragic misunderstanding. She said she filed because she felt I put her into a corner and she had to protect hersefl and S from getting thrown out of the house.

I would never do anything to hurt her. I brought this up today. I said I was still so sad she feels she does not know if I would do something to her physically or not. She said this is how she feels. I said holding up the D papers, "This is the worse thing you could have done to me and I am sitting in front of you talking calmly. I could NEVER hurt you. I love you."

I was on the phone with my mom a few minutes ago and she came down stairs and got something out of the kitchen. As she looked at me I said, "I love you." She turned and went upstairs. I guess she is trying really hard to be unemotional. I love her so much and hurt for her as well as S and myself.

I keep going through all the good times in my mind, all the times that made me love her more and more. I have this overwhelming feeling that my M can still be saved for some reason and I don't know how now. I thought I actually got through (or almost got through to her) when I first tried to ask for us to work together. She has been texting quite a bit tonight. Getting support to hang in there and stick it out now that she pulled the trigger, I'm sure. I hate the fact that there are a bunch of people pulling against us out there. However, I am happy that my W has some support during emotional times because she won't let me support her, although I so want to.

Is this M savable? Can it still be turned around? I feel so outside of MB and I have left messages the last two days and cannot get ahold of SH. I am so emotionally stunned right now. I am ok, then in tears.

She had to of filed Tuesday morning and then acted normal Tuesday night and Wednesday night. She called me on Wednesday and texted me today. She texted me a message that could have waited til I got home and I thought it was some kind of test. Looking back on it, I know understand we would not be in a position to talk about anything else tonight.

So how do I save this? I know from the lawyer I spoke with that she is going to most likely get maintenance, CS, the house and S during the time the D is being sorted. This pretty much means she is going to have it exactly how things are now with me out of the picture. There is no life lesson in this and leaves me with not much hope for MB working out.

Here is what the document is asking for:

She requests the following provisional orders:

a) Temporary care, custody, and parenting time of the minor child of the parties;

b) Temporary child support order;

c) Temporary division of debts;

d) Temporary division of property;

e) Restraint of the parties from transferring, encumbering, concealing, or in any way disposing of any of the property of the parties;

f) Temporary spousal maintenance and,

g) Preliminary attorney's fees.

Nice, eh. The court date is for next Tuesday, day after Sweetest day! Also, she knows Haloween is my favorite holiday and had to ruin this for me too. Its no wonder her dad and family are comming for visit on halloween weekend. She knew I would not be there for the visit.......

I wish we could call this off and work on things.

I am so sad right now.....

Help......

EL

I can only suggest your lawyer or whoever you use will get on the stick. You didn't email me so I guess you do not want any other help.

I think she jumped on a golden opportunity to make you feel this D is your fault and she innocently misunderstood what you said and cannot go back now.

I think she is scheming and has been all along. So you can do your plan B if she gets you out. It will give you some emotional independence, but I bet the best bit will be when she finds out her boyfriend is not as faithful to her as she thinks, I can't stop thinking she has been snowed - if she wasn't looking to reem you, she might have had her eyes open. Ya know what? She or her lawyer are reading your thread - I bet they are - have you said to her that you are worried she might take your S out of state?

reply now or email me - that will not be public - she has known your every move - this is too convenient - you always kept on the edge, her always calm, right on schedule. Darn she might be one of the girls my DIL has been running around with, they cheat on their husbands .... her little bit of acting that softens you each time you tell us you love her or feel sorry for her ...

walks like a duck - quacks like a duck .....

Linda

I am not going to suggest any more on here, they don't need any more help ... you have some decisions to make

SilverPool,

For somereason my email is not working on my laptop. I'll try a few things.

Thanks,

EL

ok - who else has access to it - call me paranoid but I have been there ...

Yikes. I'm sorry EL. I'm glad silverpool is helping you out with the legal advice.

I really, really wish you would stick to facts on this. It will help keep you focused, and help you avoid pitfalls in this situation. You have a tendency both to make up things about what is going on in your wife's mind, and to make statements about yourself that are not really true. Try to stick to the facts.

thanks MOS. Difficult times for my family right now. I would not have wished this on anyone. I pray we can get through this, but it is getting difficult to have this much faith. My faith is definitely being tested right now.

Its funny how she is not showing much emotion or remorse. I know she has a big heart, so this is weird for me. You would think the finality of what she has started would atleast cause her to show me more emotion and some kind of "sorry honey" type talk. Instead, I get harsh, cold, dug in.

Aaaaaaand that's exactly what I was talking about when I said I wish you'd stick to the facts. Your love of speculating about her motives has created endless problems for you, and yet you keep doing it.

There's nothing funny or mysterious about her guard over her emotions -- she told you exactly why she is doing it; she's been too hurt for too long and she gave up and is guarding her heart from you.

"Its funny how she is not showing much emotion or remorse. "

Hey, lying, cheating connivers rarely show any remorse.

Because they don't really love you they love the other lover. They show emotion to the other lover they are in love with-NOT YOU.

She does not feel in love with you. She is not emotionally in love with you. She wants you gone and wants the money. And then she wants to date who she wants to, have sex without hiding it from you with other men.

She gets it all and you get to support her in her affair. Get a mean butted lawyer RIGHT AWAY TOMORROW MORNING.

She has you all lined up and hung out to dry and then she is blaming it all on you asking her to go to an MB seminar???????

You need to protect yourself and your rights with the child. Forget her. She is into the other man now and not into you.

She is a cheater, lyer, ho, user, and manipulates you and makes you feel bad. She is a real downer man. She has not loved you for many years if at all.

Your wife is treating you worse than anyone should treat a DOG. She is cruel. And cold. Her true colors are coming out finally. And it is not pretty. She is not a nice person. On any level.

{{{{{{{EL}}}}}}}}


I'm so sorry, my friend.


What you do now is CYA as fast as you possibly can, I'm afraid.


I won't beat you up, but I'll just tell you that this type of conversation, in general, is not going to help you. Granted, it might not really hurt things all that much, but it's a waste of oxygen and possibly even focus that might be better elsewhere.


No, El. This isn't a misunderstanding although it is certainly tragic.

Basically, it's your answer to the question of whether or not your wife is ever going to come on board and work on the marriage. You asked her to make a simple choice -- she investigated her optoins (which any reasonable person would do in her position) and, unfortunately due to your state laws, this option looked the best to her.

I suppose you could have never said anything and preseved the deteriorating status quo -- with her never engaging and probably continuing escalating independent behaviors (aka the doormat lifestyle) and if she was content enough or didn't run into some other impetus, she might not have filed. But, sit back, just a moment and think about where that would leave you?

I'm not going to say that this is a good thing because it's not. And, right now, maybe you'd choose never knowing this hard truth over finally getting a concrete answer from her instead of an endless stream of "I don't knows."

But, I will say this: It is my firm belief that no matter how much extra "time" you would have given this, your wife would not have come on board. It's clear that she has indeed "moved on" and was simply staying around for reasons other than hope that the marriage would survive or flourish. She has been consistent with that message.

You've said in the past that you would rather know one way or another because you know you could survive if it came to divorce. Don't loose faith in that now.


Talk to SH. I imagine that he'll say to prolong the move out as long as legally possible and then, when you do move out, go to a very dark Plan B. Also, take whatever steps you can take to prolong the divorce -- assuming that won't bankrupt you or something.


It's not over until it's over.

Why don't you seriously consider taking the day off. You don't have to stay home. Maybe just go somewhere and do something that de-stresses you?


Fight for as much as you can. Be aggressive. "Most likely" is not a done deal.


You ask for custody, too. Or, as much custody as you can. And, child support.


Don't make too much of the court date, EL. I'm sure she wasn't thinking of Sweetest day when it was scheduled - it's simply the first open day on the docket.


I know, you've always wished she'd work on things but, El, she's told you "No, I won't" over and over and over again. She really doesn't want to improve the marriage -- unless it's for herself through her independent behavior. You can't do anything if someone refuses to participate.


I'm so sorry. {{{{{{{EL}}}}}}


Sorry, El, but I really wouldn't. Right now, she's probably been advised to limit conversations to "just the facts" and not make any verbal agreements with you. You might react the way you described, but I wouldn't. Obviously, your wife wouldn't. There's nothing wrong or abnormal about her acting this way, she's just different than you.

Seriously, though, right now the best thing you can do is stop focusing on what or why she's doing things (and feeling guilty because you "made her do it" ) and start focusing on protecting your custody rights as a father and your financial situation. You don't have to "give up" on your marriage to do that -- but it's really time to stand up and protect yourself as much as possible. Recognize that this is an adversarial filing and be agressive in pursuing as much as you are legally entitlted to.

Mys

On a purely practical note:

Financially:

Make your own checking account to which she does not have access.

DON'T ASK HER FOR MONEY!!! (or if you can spend your money, either) You don't have to justify your expenses to her.


Transfer any automatic bills that you are willing to pay to autodraft from that account as soon as you have it set up.

Don't let her manage the money any more and don't agree to pay for anything that's not directly related to the welfare of your child or house. (hint: her cell phone) Ask your attorney to specifically request an order for her to pay for her car, or sell it and get a cheaper one, etc. Just because she requested there be no disposal of assets doesn't mean that the judge can't order one if you make a good argument.. I don't see why you'd want to keep a $700 car payment when now you have to afford rent.

Offer to get her cheap, safe transportation. There's no reason she needs a Lexus on your dime.

Mys

(((((EL)))))

I am truly sorry that it has come to this. I hate to even get into discussions of what you should do right now because it's only going to make this hurt more for you.

It's probably best we give you a little time to get your legs under you before we point out where your thinking is hurting you.

Right now priority #1 is protecting yourself. CYA as Mys says.

Priority #2 is stop trying to talk your W through anything. It's time for you to go quiet. To leave her be and for you to get busy protecting yourself. If you want to have any chance of saving this (which I'm starting to question 'why' given what we've seen from her lately) then stop having these conversations where you're trying to entice her back. She's said it feels like your pushing and pushing. So stop it. Go dark. She isn't expecting that. All conversations should go through your lawyers (get a good one, a real shark, like the one SP has been recommending).

Priority #3 concentrate on your S. If he isn't aware what has happened I'm sure he can see the conflict in your home and he's sure to be concerned. Give him reassurance that he's loved.

Please take care of yourself. Take some time off work. Get your ducks in a row and just get away for a few hours. Give yourself some time to dispose of this anguish you are feeling. Then get yourself centered and strenghtened for what lies ahead.

Again, I am sorry it has come to this. I truly wish your W was more forgiving and willing to try to work on the M. I'm uncertain whether it is her inability to forgive that has stopped any progress or whether she is in a bit of a FOG. Either way you need to take back what she's pulled from you; you and your ability to be happy and content with you. Your life does hang in the balance because of this woman who is incapable of forgiving and too immature to make a conscious choice to work with someone she vowed to work with. You are a good guy EL and if your W can't see that it's her loss. You can move on from this and find happiness. You can make a clean break and find someone who is a better M partner. You can't fix her and she obviously doesn't want to be fixed.

Try to go into Plan B mode NOW!!! Do not engage her and allow yourself to be treated this way. The woman and wife you knew no longer exists; work on acceptance. Your focus NOW is you and your DS.

When you do get a lawyer, tell them that you want full custody also. Mention the vehicle in questions, with viable alternatives that are safe and effective modes of transport. Your son is your focus now. He needs his father, not part time, but as much as the two 'adults' can possibly manage. KEEP YOUR COOL. NO MORE BEGGING!!! You mentioned wanting your 'manhood' back--Well, it's time to recapture that.

My H EASILY agreed to every other weekend and one day a week. Too easily. If you want to spend time with S, then that is what you ask for, NO LESS. Her filing is just her say. Your counter to that will be your say. Then let the lawyers start boxing! Go as dark as you can right now. It will be good for your soul. Please focus on you, take care of yourself. Let us know your progress. We're here.

{{{{{{{{{{{EL}}}}}}}}}}}

Oh El.

I'm just crushed for you. I feel really sick for you about all of it.

(((((((EL))))))))

I'm praying for you and your son.

So sorry to hear it has come to this.

Time to lawyer up. No talking to her except about logistic with S. Anything you say can be used against you. And it looks like she will.

Please be really careful about taking care of your rights, EL.

The others are right -- the requests from your wife and the estimates of worst-cases don't necessarily represent what has to happen. Make your own assertive requests back. Get a lawyer who will take the best care of you, since your wife has one taking care of her.

Not just for you, but for your son -- he needs you like crazy right now to protect your rights, and through your rights, his. And give the little guy lots of hugs too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Be careful out there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the kind thoughts everyone. This is a really difficult time for both WW and I. I know, for whatever reason, WW believes she is doing the right thing for her and I believe I am doing the right thing for me. Unfortunately, some of the "normal" or expected things come across to the other as so harsh. It is only natural because of the nature of the things we are being told to do by lawyers etc.. I just retained a lawyer this afternoon. I could not meet with her yet, other than the consult she gave me Wednesday afternoon. Its really difficult for me because I went to see this lawyer to understand both WW's rights and my own. I wanted to make sure I was not going to hurt her or me. It was all very above board.

Then the next day I recieve the papers.......

I found out today we are getting a fair amount more back from 2005 state tax returns than we expected. I came home and had a thought of paying off WW's Lexus. I thought this would be a nice thing, plus after thinking about it, it would help with cash flow if things actually ended up where one of us had to move out and we had to somehow carry a mortgage and rent at the same time. This was completely above board on my end and her first sentence was, "Why? so you can then sell it out from under me?" Why do we have to be here in this adversarial position. I love this woman. I guess I would let her walk all over me because I love her. Not that I wish to be a door mat, but I just want her to be happy.

A year ago, MOS challenged me on my saying I just want my W to be happy. I can actually say that I want her to be happy now. I hope we can start to be friends again.

EL

El,

I know you don't like being adversarial and you want to be a good guy, but it just doesn't make any sense to pay off her lexus at this point.

Ya know?

Mys

I understand how you feel, but the problem is that she's not likely to reciprocate your good will. Right now, it might be better for you to think of your son's welfare before your wife's welfare. She's going to do what she has to do -- and so will you.

Mys

Apart from that, howya doin'

Linda

"No answer" was the stern reply. Silence reigned and we all got wet.

Linda

Hey guys,

I'm hanging in there. Trying to not get drawn into discussions that get us into trouble. I feel bad that I end up looking like a calculating difficult person when I have to do certain things to protect myself and S. I understand it is a pretty emotional and difficult time for all of us right now. I just wish WW could see that I am not the liar or scheemer or horrible person she thinks I am, or that her support structure is telling her I am. I do not know what will show her this other than time. I have learned through life that as time heals all, it also tends to reveal the "real" truths eventually. Therefore, I do hold comfort in my own heart that in time, WW will finally see that I have remained true to her and all we had believed in.

Thanks for your kind words.

EL

Well, realistically, there's no way on earth you could be trusted to look out for her best interests at this point, and she'd be whacko to think otherwise.

The same holds true in reverse.

Accept that you each need to advocate as best you can for your own interests. If you persist in seeing such efforts on your wife's part as attacks on you, then expect her to see such efforts on your part as attacks on her.

Extremely Lost


Good.


I understand this is hard for you. Maybe these feelings are part of the mourning that you need to do for this relationship (if it's over -- it's not over yet). I suggest that you try to mourn later, if you can.

You can't control how your wife sees you or what her support structure is telling her. Right now, you're in a naturally adversarial position because you two have very different goals. She can't realistically expect you to support her divorce filing; anymore than you can realistically expect her to marriage build.

You've both stated that you want opposite things -- therefore you're on opposite sides.

The answer to this is NOT to just 'give in' and make her happy, though. Go read up on a poster called Papaof3, if you want to see where that ends up. He gave his wife a divorce in 3 months, ended up with no custody (has to take her back to court) and in severe financial straits. She told him 'if he was nice' then maybe someday they'd get back together but now that all is said and done she has decided she doesn't want to go back.

When is your appt with the lawyer? When is your next appt with SH?

Try to keep your wits about you and don't make decisions out of guilt or appeasement. Be fair to YOURSELF as well as your wife and child. There's no good that will come of it if you just roll over and give her whatever she asks for in the hope that she'll "like" you again. She will never respect you if you do that.


Maybe and maybe not. You all ready know that she doesn't forgive - she doesn't know how. She hasn't forgiven you for stuff in the distant past even after you've changed. That's her problem; not yours.

Final note: Your wife has a strong support network and it sounds like she's getting good advice (as far as how to carry out a divorce). Here's a key different that I observe between your wife and you: When your wife decides to actually take advice, she follows it to the letter. You .. tend to let your emotions (guilt/anxiety or denial/romanticism) get the better of you. Pay attention to that because it tends to get you in trouble. (P.S. I'm not talking necessarily about advice from here, a public internet board, though some of that can be excellent. I'm talking about advice from professionals (SH and your lawyer).)

I'm thinking of you today and wishing you strength and as much peace as you can muster.

Mys

How did you think she was going to proceed with this D? You say adversarial like it's something new to your R. I think this element has always been there. I've heard enough from your W to claim she has quite a closed mind ... stubborn I think is what you called it.

I never imagined she would become this soft hearted individual who felt like this M just wasn't going to work and that you two would just work together to end it peacefully. Nope. As soon as I heard she filed papers I knew she wasn't going to start creating controversy and become even more adverserial.

I don't know if she feels guilty and is reacting to that or if she feels anger because she still feels you are totally to blame for the M's demise. But I do know she's made her mind up to end it and she can't feel justified in ending it if you two are amicable and working peacefully together. She almost instinctively will create conflict to justify her position of wanting to end it.

Yes I know these are assumptions and DJs.

What was your response to her insult? If we know anything about you EL is that you are not malicious. Maybe she's fearful you will become that but she has little to go on to make that leap. I would have stated something along the lines of "I know I have my share of issues that I brought into this M but being mean and malicious has never been one of those issues. If it's your intention to hurt me during this very tough time so be it. I'm going to take the high road so that we may try to get through this peacefully. I still care about you and I still love you.". And then I would have walked away ignoring anything she'd try to say back.

Thinking about the car her statement makes no sense. You have the same amount of power to sell the car with or without a loan (I don't know how much power but it's the same regardless of a loan.). I think she was seizing the opportunity to feel you out. To try to create some anger in you. Maybe she's purposefully trying to bait you so she has something to use in court. Remember take the high road. Let her know you're trying to work with her so that you can continue on with your lives in a fashion that would be of the most benefit to your S. And do not let her question your loyalty to your family. You've hung on this long for the sake of that.

PS: I sent you an email at your arcindy.com address.

EL,
I am going to join back in with the chorus and say that you MUST now concentrate all of your efforts on having a structure for you and S that is healthy. This will mean that you must now ONLY think of S and yourself. If you could plan B, that is what you would be doing. No thoughts of how this will affect WW. You are now no longer faced with the choice of D or not, now you are heading in that direction.

Take a moment to think of your future with your S. Do you want to be as financially secure as possible? Do you want to be mentally strong and happy? If your answers are a resounding YES, then start NOW.

Yes, this is hard on WW, also, but that is not your concern right now. You are your concern, you care about you. When you do see lawyer for more than a consult, be firm on what YOU need/want. This is not about being nice, this is about your future. Yes, today sucks, but your future is at stake. YOUR future.

EL, the legal system will not give you any points for being fair or reasonable. In divorce court, the typically overworked judge's paramount concern is to close the case. If the parties agree to something, the judge will OK it to get the case closed. So if you agree to a bad deal, the judge will let you have it. And then, after the divorce is final and you wake up and realize what you have done to yourself, the judge will hold you to what you agreed to.

The standard in almost every state for custody is best interest of the child. During the divorce, there is a wide spectrum of arrangements that might be in the child's best interest. After the divorce is final, there is a huge value placed on keeping the child's world stable. So while you might be able to get the judge to approve custody arrangement x today as being marginally better than arrangement y, after the judge approves arrangement y, you might not be able to get the judge to CHANGE things to arrangement x. You have to get what is good for you NOW. The playing field is not the same later.

Remember, after you get divorced you can always give your wife more money or more time with S than the decree requires if you want to show what a great guy you are. But you can't give her less. So go for the best deal for you regardless of how wife will react, and then you can show her what a great guy you are after the lawyers have left the building.

Hello all,

This past Sunday my W let me know that she has been reading my post. Although I am happy she has taken it upon herself to look at my thread on MB, I must agree with her that after reading this particular thread, it would give the impression that I am totally schemeing against her. It also would give off the impression that MB is not to much about marriage building at all. This is unfortunate, but true. She also told me her reading this post is what helped her decide to file for a D.

As a lot of you know, one of the most important things to me (as I have stated many, many times throughout my 2.5 years of participating on MB) is to try and offer an unbiased explanation of what I was going through. I did all of this for one reason only. The reason was to help me understand what was/is happening in my own M and how to improve it and create the love we both so desired in our M. W has explained to me that I have spread my own version of our M to all of you and have solicited your support for me. I can understand how she may feel I am/was playing or soliciting support for me as a victim.

I have asked W if she actually read my earlier threads on the emotional needs section and she did not offer me a clear answer. I wished she would because I had invited her to this site the entire 2.5 years I have been around it. I am not sure if she will be viewing this site anyfurther, but if she does I would sure hope that she is willing to offer her own POV as I have obviously failed miserably to accurately represent an unbiased explanation of our M. Because of this I feel I have failed our M, and her.

What she found on by reading just this thread was a false impression of what MB is about and truely represents. The name calling is not appropriate, especially towards the woman I truely love, even in these very difficult times. My W is stubborn. This is one of the things that attracted me to her in the first place. She is also very intelligent, bright, social, loving, kind, affectionate and a great mother. I am not saying all this because I think she may read this thread. I am saying this to all of you who have worked with me over the years. I am sure there is no changing my W's mind on MB now nor would I blame her.

The one time she actually looked at MB and it was people helping me consider a plan "B." She does not understand that a plan "B" is to SAVE our M and takes the most love a person could have for another to do. In our current emotional state, I am not sure she will want to even try to understand that throughout all of this I have meant her no harm or malice. I would NEVER try to take our S away from her as I believe she is a GREAT mom and our S would loose out if he could not grow up experiencing her thoughts, views and love. I only hope I am allowed to share the same thoughts, views and love not only with S, but also with W.

I am not sure that this will happen. W does not feel she can ever trust me and is not comfortable considering taking initial steps towards trying to even think of trusting me. I can only imagine how hurt and horrified she may have felt with this thread being her first impression of MB. I can only imagine her thinking that this is the type of thing that I have been talking about for 2.5 years. It is a tragedy and an injustice, not only for my M, but for MB as a whole.

Posters should ALWAYS remember that the ONLY reason we are ALL on this site is for the soul purpose of building our Ms into something great. This totally means that protecting both spouses is paramount towards the success of MB. I must now carry the burden of whatever the future may hold for me and my family. I just hope that in the future, we all remember that along with our words comes a responsibility to all poster's and their spouses. Although we all may from time to time carry strong opinions, we must temper this with common sense and understanding with a heaping spoonful of kindness.

I do not know if my W will ever wish to save our M and build something wonderful together anymore. I can only pray that she may at some point. As tonight I am still her H, it is still my role to protect her and her feelings. I will take one day at a time now and be thankful for each day I am gifted by her.

Best wishes to all,

EL

Hi EL,

Well, I'm sorry your wife has chosen to see this thread (or at least tell you that she sees this thread) as justification for the steps she's taken...

I went back and re-read some of your early posts on this thread. If she'd read what you'd written with a tender heart, she would have seen CLEARLY that divorce is NOT something you want, nor is something you were pursuing.

I think it's baloney, EL. Just another way to tell you that this is all your fault.

****
Mrs. EL, if you're reading--let me ask you a question. If your decision to file for divorce was really about "fear" that EL was going to divorce you... then now that you know that isn't what he was planning, why don't you cease to pursue divorce?

Because it's BS, that's why.

For once, stop blaming this man and take ownership of your decisions. YOU don't want to be married to him anymore. He clearly (and for reasons I don't necessarily understand) wants to be married to you.

Are you really going to try to blame him and this THREAD for your decision?
*****

EL, don't buy it. It doesn't matter what anyone wrote on this thread, but YOU. And everything you've written is clearly about wanting to save your marriage.

The concept of a plan B is clear from your posts (especially your first couple) and she could have read up on it to find out exactly what it is.

She is trying to evade her responsibility and her choice by making it your fault.

Do not fall for it. And don't blame us either.

The decision to file for divorce (as well as the previous decision to cease working on your marriage) can only be owned by your wife.

(((((EL)))))

EL

I don't know if you're still reading here or will reply but I'll post this to you and possibly Mrs. El, as well.


Ok. It might be true that this played into that decision. Everything you posted was about wanting to save your marriage BUT getting her involved in participating in it. Is she angry that you were 'scheming' against her to get her to participate in your marriage -- make a choice?

Once again, what were you supposed to do? Your wife refused to find any plan to help your marriage.


Of course you are! This is to be expected as we are your SUPPORT system. I seriously doubt she's being objective to her SUPPORT system.


I would love to see her here too BUT I do worry about her not being treated as kindly and gently as she'd like. She might like to post on saveyourmarriage.com (Penny's site) instead because that's more closely moderated.


OF COURSE!! That's where you are in your plan with SH.


She hasn't trusted you for years, El. She hasn't forgiven you for years, either. Honestly, I know you aren't some saint and you have definite ownership in the state of your relationship but you do not own everything Refuse to pick it up.

If MB bothers her so much, then ask her to pick any other plan that involves fixing your marriage and promise never to post here again until that is resolved (obviously all bets are off if you get divorced).


Best wishes to you on your journey, my friend. I understand if you can't/don't/won't come back here anymore. I extend an invitation to your wife if she wants to come and post here to straighten all of us out. It's too bad she didn't read the 'beat up on EL' threads, eh?

I am concerned that she's now stripped you of your support system when I'm certain she has no intention of giving hers up. I am concerned that you're accepting responsibility and, unless you really have been misleading all of us, allowing her to re-write all history to make this totally your fault. I am concerned that you won't protect your interests in the divorce and will just 'give her everything' because you feel guilty or like a failure.

Take care of yourself. This really isn't your fault.


Mys

EL,

I'm sorry your W refuses to be responsible and accountable for her behaviors that have lead to the demise of your M.

I'm sure your W has a ton of redeeming qualities and that is why you are wanting this M to work. I'm sure that's why you are holding on to your love for her. At some point you need to see that her behaviors and her unwillingness to give up certain behaviors (like being unforgiving and being less than cooperative) are behaviors that she's not willing to let go of. And that makes her an unhealthy marriage partner. You have to weigh that against all those good qualities. You aren't going to be able to do end-arounds on those. They are there and we haven't seen any signs of them changing. It's been this long and she's still holding on to those values like they are her life-savers.

Even now that she's been here, EL, you continue to stick your unhealthy Giver out there. You continue to defend her to protect her at the sacrifice of yourself and all you've tried to accomplish the last 2.5 years. Your M may have been in trouble because of your shortcomings but it failed because she refused to forgive you and make attempts to work with you. There was never any sense of team in any of her efforts.

I challenge her to refute that. Oh I'm sure she's got HER ideas on why you're to blame but the honest truth is there was never any bend in her behavior that would have given off the appearance of being cooperative and open minded.

You spent a good portion of your M listening to her lead you down a false path. Then once she was so far withdrawn from you and your behavior she THEN decided to reveal to you what pushed her away. She did this after she was too far gone. And now she BLAMES you for all the problems in the M. If she admits to this then she needs to be accountable. She needs to go to great lengths to make amends.

You came here and tried to offer the most unbiased opinion you could of the events in your life. I think you did a good job of protecting your W despite your bad habit of trying to define her thoughts. You've spent 2.5 years of getting blasted for your behavior. You've changed a lot. You've done more than your share to make this M stick. You've been accountable for your shortcomings. Don't lose sight of that.

If your D does go through I hope you continue to stick around so you can continue to work on and improve yourself. You are a honest, decent person, a loving father, a hard working individual who is a great care provider, who is going to make some lovely woman very happy someday.

I agree with the others. Your wife is handing you a line to make you feel guilty. Don't buy into it.

I also agree that you probably need to go dark here. After all, I did tell you yesterday to "lawyer up". That goes for posting here also.

But I repeat my advice. Do not concede points in an effort to appear loving or reasonable. After all, why isn't your wife motivated to be fair to you if she still loves you? If her behavior was motivated by love, she wouldn't be seeking sole custody. If she is doing it for strategic reasons on her lawyer's advice, then she is playing hardball and you need to do the same or you will get steamrollered.

Sometimes it takes the pain of an adversarial divorce for people to realize what they are giving up and what it is going to REALLY be like afterward. Easier to accept the change if you paint an unreasonably rosy picture of what the divorce settlement will look like. If you really want to get back together, you need to win some points in the negotiating so you have something to offer to get her to delay / withdraw the divorce. If she gets everything she wants by fighting you, not much incentive on her part to call off the dogs and discuss reconciliation.

Oh, EL

Really? This person is no longer your wife, she is wayward still. She knows your buttons, and pushes them whenever she needs an excuse to harm you or your child. Please, take the blinders off! You have expressed OFTEN here, that you want nothing more than for your wife to see you and participate in making your marriage full and strong and happy again. You do not need to defend her, she needs to speak for herself. DO NOT give anymore. What purpose does this serve? She takes and takes from you, she files for a divorce because some people aren't nice to her. Oh, please! Grow up. Remember that your child is the most important person now. Your wife knows that she gave up, and she is again, blaming you and MB, not looking inward and seeing her own weaknesses.

Listen, if you don't want to come here, to the place that will allow you to see yourself, be yourself, and eventually be happy(with or without your M), that's your choice. Your wife only reading part of your story, well, it screams of "let me find a reason to support my actions". If your actions are true, and sound, you don't need reasons.

Your wife is DIVORCING you; DIVORCING your family; your son will never be the same again. She is leaving; stop holding on to some fantasy that she is something else. Yes, she may have shining qualities, but she is not giving that to you anymore.

Your WW did a half-arsed reading of this thread, without using a kind heart, to find a reason to expell you from her life. You must ask yourself, does this woman have any care or concern for me and my family, if she is going to throw it away? I don't care what we say or what we do, it matters only what YOU do. Eh, I'm babbling now. I'm very angry at the damage you allow your WW to bestow upon you. Please, take some time off, look at the situation without this forum for a while. No more excuses.

That makes sense to me. Plan B is pretty extreme, so it's not an easy thing to grasp as an intro to MB. If she read this thread, I think it's very logical of her to take it as an indication that she should consider her legal position. Plan B left to you to implement doesn't protect her rights. Divorce does. I'm not sure why any of the others would think this is a line -- it sounds very sensible to me.


I know you try, and the fact that you try as hard as you do is what has made it possible for people to try to help you. However, your posts are anything but unbiased. Many of us have remarked on your extreme self-centeredness time and again, and I know I at least have remarked that I'd divorce you for it. Given that, I just can't see it as very shocking that someone else would have the same reaction.


Sure, I can understand it too, because you've been doing both all along -- trying to get feedback on how to make the marriage you want, AND pleading for support and empathy. It's not an either/or deal, no matter what you'd like to believe. And getting support in a tricky situation is a good thing. Your wife has a support network and so should you.

No one presents and entirely unbiased view to their support network. Doing so would prevent the support network from fulfilling its function.

EL, you put your support network where she can see it and invited her to see for herself. It's worth asking her what you would see if she did the same -- if you saw what she and others said when she was feeling broken and hurt, would it all seem objective and fair? Undoubtedly not.

It could not be the MB posts that led EL's wife to file for divorce. Look at the timeline.

1. 10/08/06 Sunday:

EL posts asking for support in saving his marriage. 6 responses drift in giving opinions and support. None are bad. But many of the GQ2 folks dont know his story, they are a bit more emotional.

2. 10/09/06 Monday:

13 more responses drift in and then EL is noticing how cold and silent his wife is with him while they try an talk things out. After that there are a couple more supportive posts....

3. 10/10/06 Tuesday:

SHE FILES FOR DIVORCE TODAY. It appears to me that she has already picked the attorney maybe weeks or months ago. And had the appointment lined up for at least a few days if not weeks. SHE PLANNED THIS WAY BEFORE ANYTHING WAS POSTED ON THIS THREAD!

Even the time line shows it. Now she is blaming MB. And EL. Anyone but herself. This is really really sad. But the saddest part, EL, is you believe her. Maybe with this evidence I have shown you can realize she was planning this for a while now. Getting an appointment with an attorney takes days or weeks. Even finding an attorney takes a while.

Erm, maybe I missed something, but it doesn't sound to me like she's saying MB or this thread is *the* reason she's divorcing. It sounded to me like she said it was a factor in her choosing to file last Tuesday. Of course she'd already considered it, found a lawyer, made possible plans, etc. She doesn't appear to be trying to claim otherwise.

Looking at the situation that was in front of her at that time, and adding in reading whatever she did read on MB about Plan B, it seems perfectly sensible to me that she would judge it timely to act to protect her rights. Claiming that this is all somehow lying malice on her part seems pretty farfetched to me, and it also does not respect EL's plea that we speak respectfully of her.

I did not say it was lying malice. I meant it was her habit to blame others. Many people do that. Even I sometimes blame others for my mistakes.

All thru this, EL was trying to save the marriage. That is what is so sad.

No, he wasn't. Not by a long shot.

I'll grant you that he appears to be trying to save it now, but that is a quite recent development.

For most of his history on this board, EL was not concerned with a marriage with another human being, but only with what system of rules could work out a way for him to control his wife on some level. Most of his posting history shows him viewing MB as just another system of rules that were supposed to give him control, and if they didn't, either the rules or his wife must be broken. There were some fun hissyfits last winter that show yet another round of "MB doesn't work, because I stopped a large chunk of what I'm willing to admit are LBs, and my wife is still not magically doing what I want." Yikes.

It is sad that now we have one person trying to save the marriage and one not. However, as EL has known all along, you do not get infinite time to clean up your act. Your spouse doesn't have to take your crap forever. EL chose to take longer than his wife was willing to wait. It's sad, but pretending it's all her decision won't help EL get his life in order in the future.

I don't think she's lying maliciously. I'm sure that she's acting in what she believes to be her best interest (it might even objectively BE her best interest if she's truly done with this marriage).

I do worry that this "guilt trip" is something that EL might use to make more bad decisions such as not protecting himself but that's not her fault, either, when you come right down to it. However she feels about MB, how she was represented here, El scheming against her, etc. it's simply not reasonable for her to expect him not to protect/fight for his own best interest (and there's no indication that is what she does expect, by the way). Reproaching him for protecting his interests while doing the exact same thing is disingenuous. But, at least it's garden variety emotional manipulation.

Him buying into that and letting his guard down or trying to appease her by not fighting for everything he deserves is orders of magnitude worse (in the stupid direction). And, I think, that's where some of our defensiveness (on his part) is coming. Mine, at least, isn't directed towards her -- so much as towards him to not do something stupid!!


I'm not sure that those two things are mutually exclusive. El was trying to make the marriage better -- true to his definition of what 'better' meant which is the only realistic definition he could have used. In his defense, his wife had very little to say about what she wanted even when afforded the safe opportunity (in counseling and with SH). That El is bad at guessing isn't on the same level. He was operating without a compass.

Why would he move things in a direction to make things worse for himself absent any true data about whether it would make things better for his wife?


The divorce is her decision. It's clear the El did not want a divorce.

The choice to not engage and work on the marriage has been her decision. The choice not to engage in counseling, to pick some other method if MB was too offensive to her, to fill out questionaires or provide feedback, or to make a decision to end the relationship before getting into another relationship with another man are all things that she owns in this relationship. Nothing EL has ever done or will do will make him 'deserving' of those choices. Those are all her own and each and every one of them could torpedo a relationship just as quickly as El's annoying (and still present) habit of trying to re-write her reality.

No one is blameless in this debacle. The true tragedy is their son who may now have to adjust to a broken home. And, yes, my bias is that she hasn't put in nearly the 'work' she should have put into this relationship in order to sacrifice her son's familial stability so she can be happy. El might not have done 'enough' too but he's not the one currently pulling the plug.

No one should have to take 'crap' forever, however, if you can't be honest enough to engage long enough to provide meaningful feedback to a spouse that is begging for it -- then I don't call that due dilligence.

In her defense, though, if she's just really not going to re-engage in this marriage (for good reasons, bad reasons, any, or no reason at all) then the only responsible thing for her to do is to end the relationship and let El go. While doing that, I suppose I can't blame her for trying to advocate for herself as strongly as possible -- I can't even blame her for a little bad behavior (emotional manipulation) as this is a stressful thing to do.

I just know I'd make some different choices about what I'd ask for in terms of support for myself (vs our child) if I knew that I made the choice not to do due dilligence about repairing the marriage. I think I wouldn't then feel entitled to the Lexus, maintenance, etc. I think I'd feel like standing on my own two feet if I was the one who chose to walk away. And, that bleeds through as a bit of disdain for her, I guess.

Mys

Hello all,

There is no right or wrong in a dynamic that we are currently in right now. As much as I wish for my M to have atleast a fresh opportunity, I must also wish for my W to be happy in whatever direction she chooses. For life is a choice and always will be. I cannot make someone love me or even consider it just because I want them too. Thinking like this is one of the definitions of insanity and even I will admit to temporary insanity over the last 2.5 years. The truth is, I love my W and I am deeply saddened with where we are right now. She feels that she cannot trust me period. This covers everything as she needs to feel she can trust me if she were to ever allow me to meet her most important emotional needs.

Now, although I wish for her to be happy, this does not mean I am letting her off the hook. I am greatly hurt everyday (as I am sure she is) with each step our current process takes. We spoke today and I let her know up front that I am not going to participate in using our S as a leverage tool throughout our process. I have always been a good father and she has always been a good mother. No matter what emotions we are feeling, we would be horrible human beings and doing a grave injustice to our S if we were to say otherwise.

Right now, S needs to reamin our biggest concern and what is in his best interests. As both W and I are from families of divorce, we both know first hand the pain a D will cause our S. It is both of our responsibility to now protect what seems to be the one thing we both actually did right in our relationship - creating our wonderful and gifted son.

Maybe intime, our relationship may have a future opportunity, but it is clear right now that this takes two and currently there is still only one interested at the moment. Because of this, emotions MUST be set aside and all efforts need to be aimed towards the innocent, our child.

W does not deserve to be devestated due to our situation and neither do I. We both must be in a positon where we can do wonderful things with our S and share what life has to offer our S when he is with one or the other.

I will always love W and S. This I know and accept. I believe that W has some type of love for me deep down and may not be able to see it or even feel it exists right now. I have a lot of respect for my W, although I am emotionally devestated (not looking to play the victim role here as MOS will clearly point this out to any and all posters feeling they want to support me in this role).

As for MB, I have spent 2.5 years of my life learning and believing in MB. Not because it told me what I wanted to hear - YOUR M CAN BE SAVED AND CAN BE GREAT, but because it was the first type of help that actually got through to me and helped me to understand some of my shortfalls I otherwise would not have been able to see. The only example I can give is that of a person who needs glasses, but has never worn them. You see things constantly blurry and then one day you get an eye exam and are given your first pair of glases. You are amazed at just how crystal clear some things appear. I am thankful to MB for having shown me and taught me how to be a better person. It has improved my life.

I feel sorry for MB to the extent that it does get a negative wrap when a spouse does finally decide to look at it and only sees the intense discussions at the height of pain of their respective spouse. Infact, it is even made more skewed because of some posters that are well intended and share a ride on the individual's emotional roller coaster.

Even tonight my W mentioned some examples where I had posted something, but did not share the "whole" story. This was in part because I had not considered nor even thought about some of the things she mentioned from her angle before (although it does not mean I shouldn't have). However, these examples also show why it is so important to have both spouse's actually posting because both POVs are invaluable. I know, at times during our M, my W did not feel like engaging me with her opinions, most likely out of fear that I would reject her POVs and try to force her to insert/accept my own POV. For whatever reason my W did not feel comfortable sharing her POV with me, this did not change my very strong desire to try and figure out some way of trying to improve our M. I was desperate to solicit many poster's POVs to try and understand where my W may have been coming from. I knew one fact, it was not my POV she had and therefore, I was on a quest to find others who did not share my POV in the hopes that just maybe I would stumble across that ever important POV that would offer me the greatest insight into how my W might feel. Of course, I know realize this is pretty futile as the only true way to get this POV is from your spouse. If they are unwilling or unable to give you this, you are pretty much stuck.

I do hope that my W decides to actually try out a post here. I also know, and hope she will at somepoint learn, that most of the posters on MB are extremely fair and reasonable. There is nothing to actually fear on this board as it is a true support board. I have been honest with my W all along that I was on this board. I had asked her repeatedly to read MB books, look at the sight and go to a seminar and speak to SH. She may feel over powered by MB due to my enthusiasm and belief that MB would work for us. I understand how she could have this opinion and also feel unprotected by me based upon some of the things she has read. The truth is that I would (and have) defended her to the bitter end. I can't deliberately hurt someone I truely love. Call it a personality fault of mine, but it is my fault to own.

Welcome to MB Mrs. EL. May you eventually find something that will help you with this philosophy. It is NOT A CULT. There is not orange robes, not monthly fee, no forced kool-aid breaks and no gatherings on a big rock awaiting a mothership. It is an independent support sight, which due to this independence as well as privacy, runs the natural risks of having a few strongly independent viewpoints interjecting regardless of how hurtful these POVs or opinions can be. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I now welcome and invite yours to this thread. Your POV is one of the MOST important ones that could be posted on this thread, no! It is THE most important POV that could grace this thread.

To my W, I love you.

To my fellow posters, I thank you.

May you all find peace.

EL

That's nice, but when the "better" is defined as destructively as EL defined it for much of his time here, it seems sophistry at best to say he was trying to save the marriage.


When I read this, I began to wonder if we were talking about the same person. She gave him a lot of information he chose not to use, so operating without a compass was his choice, not hers.

It's true she could have provided more information, but what's the point of that when the information you do provide gets disregarded or argued down? When what you want is to at least be left in peace, and providing information gets you someone who is bigger than you are relentlessly following you about your home having a visibly agitated fit, why would you do that?


That sounds again like we're not even talking about the same people. He's had room all along for LB improvements in areas where his wife had expressed discomfort.


This sounds like sophistry again, since it leaves out the fact that choosing not to provide a safe environment for her to engage was EL's decision.



I'm back to wondering who we're talking about again. Of course no one is blameless -- that's my whole point.


When due diligence as you define it involves engaging a bully who is larger than you and uses your joint decision for you not to work and your resulting economic dependence to try to coerce you into having no life that is not devoted to his service and who uses his size to intimidate you following you from room to room endlessly having a visibly agitated hissyfit whenever he chooses, I think your definition of due diligence needs some serious work.

When that same bully gets drunk and chooses to physically intimidate the living daylights out of you, so far as I'm concerned, there is no due diligence required any longer. I'm still surprised he's not in jail.


Ok, so you feel disdain that she's not following your own advice to EL to advocate for herself as strongly as possible? I'm puzzled at the assumption that she feels entitled to everything she asked for -- I thought it was a given that her lawyer instructed her to ask for everything she can, because she'll probably get less, so simply asking for what she thinks is fair will probably hurt her.

Assuming she feels entitlement over actions that are more probably mere following the prudent instruction of her lawyer is exactly the kind of DJing we've been trying to train out of EL.

Hey EL, I found something that's fun for stress relief and your son would probably love it too: Virtual Bubble Wrap: http://fun.from.******.pl/2003-11-24/bubblewrap.swf

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Erm, the ****** bit is the good o' H-E-double-hockey-sticks that got blotted out by the filter.

MOS


*shrugs*

I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think El really wanted what he wanted because he thought it was bad for his wife. At the worst, I think you could say he didn't realize that it would be bad or how it would be bad or maybe didn't even stop to consider THAT it could be bad for her. And, yes, I consider that "trying to save the marriage" because he was trying to fix the problems in the relationship that he had defined in a manner that seemed reasonable to him (regardless of how anyone else felt about it)

I also think it's fair to say that he understood that those weren't the only problems in the relationship though he might not have been able to clearly articulate all the problems nor did he have much success at identifying all of them.

None of us here have a clear picture of what might have been good for her, really. And, I think that if El did have that information he would have shared it with us either through his many renditions of conversations or through direct expression.


She also gave him a lot of stonewalling "I don't knows."


She had many opportunities to provide the information to someone who was not going to argue with her nor disregard the information (SH, the marriage counselor). I completely understand why she didn't want to engage in circular discussions with El. She had available to her a number of opportunties to provide the information to a neutral 3rd party who would not only relay the information to El without her direct involvement but provide him with guidance and accountability in the process.

She chose not to avail herself of those opportunities. They were offered to her time and again. And, if she didn't find SH to be a reasonable option, then she had available to her the time and resources to find one that was. She HAS the opportunity NOW to find resources to get her point across.

Now, maybe El isn't privy to her search or he's not being truthful about her investigating options but from the information that I have here (which might be one sided) it doesn't appear that she's willing to investigate any options to communicate with El other than "he should miraculously manage to understand my message when that has never happened before" which is an awfully lazy approach to problem solving, in my opinion.

She found one counselor who couldn't get through? Try another. The third didn't work? Try another. El finally found one who was able to coach him through real changes in his behavior? Why not try talking to *THAT* counselor to get your message across? That is my definition of due dilligence.

Perhaps all she wanted to do was escape but that is not a useful life strategy. She knew there were problems in the marriage. Retreating behind a wall of non-action could not possibly fix the problems that were there and I'm sure she's smart enough to have figured that out. Starting a relatinoship with another man was not going to fix the problems either. She didn't want to talk to El because his communication skills were so poor? Fine! That doesn't excuse her from not agreeing to talk to competent, licensed professionals. Chances are, their communication skills would be adequate.


She had room all along to find some neutral 3rd party to translate her message safely to El. She had room for more radical honesty.



I believe that providing a neutral 3rd party (professional counseling) is a providing a safe environment (unless you're suggesting the SH would abuse her.) Let's assume that SH wasn't safe for her -- she had the option of picking any other professional 3rd pary. I am not going to give credence to the idea that there was absolutely no safe place that she could have arranged to communicate her point. Nor, do I believe that is too onerous to fall under 'due dilligence.'

She clearly did not uphold her responsibilities in this area. If she was unsafe, she did not take any responsible steps to become safe. The steps she took were avoidance/denial and adultery.


My definition of due dilligence involves taking responsible actions to 1.) provide safety for yourself and any minor children and 2.) to provide resolution to the problem. That includes but is not limited to taking advantage of every available opportunity and option.

She failed on both. She did not do anything to realistically enforce boundaries against his behavior. Instead, she just withdrew and refused to engage him. That's not a boundary, that's petulant pouting. Boundaries involve information about the behavior and what your choice is. I don't remember her saying "I will discuss this with you when... (you calm down/sober up/etc.)"

"I will not talk to you." Is not a boundary, it's a stonewalling tantrum.

She also took no steps to resolve the issues. As I said, if she couldn't talk to him directly (and I'm not saying she should have) then she had myriad opportunities to find some neutral 3rd party to referee. She was aware of a professional counselor that was having luck (finally) with coaching El's behavior but she didn't choose to talk to him..

No, MOS, she did nothing even close to 'due dilligence.'


Due dilligence might have been throwing him in jail. But, she didn't. She just decided not to do anything about it except pout. She didn't leave. She didn't file for divorce. She didn't address it with his counselor. She didn't do anything about it at all except possibly be angry.


Yeah, I know. It's an emotional reaction. It's not consistent with my logical side <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You know I'm a feeler. I pointed that out because it is, in fact, not consistent. But, yes, I do feel that.


Yes, that makes logical sense. I guess what I'm saying is that I understand her following the good advice of her lawyer. It's even what my objective side would tell her to do. But, there is a part of me that thinks less of her for doing it. (My logical side and emotional side do not always match up; I can admit that. I tend to make "my" decisions based on my emotional side. I tend to manage my "expectations" based on my logical side.)
Hopefully, that makes sense... er... or at least communicates that it might not make .. sense...


*grins* True! El, do as I say not as I do, ok?

Mys
(I really do try to give advice from my logical/practical side -- but sometimes the emotional side wants to be heard. Don't worry if you can't reconcile the two sides. I can't either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

Ok, we can agree to disagree on the question of due diligence and what reasonable options were. I think you are not just mistaken, but grossly and horribly mistaken about what you choose to require of someone living under the shadow of physical intimidation.

All right.


Grossly and horribly mistaken? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Goodness. That upsets me some because I do value your opinion. (Or maybe 'upset' isn't the right word... gives me pause to think might be more accurate.)

I'd be interested in why you feel that way if you care to share (I won't argue with you about it, I promise). And, as this is a largely 'value based' emotional response it certainly isn't objective (hence my description of it as a bias).

I'm not sure that "require" is quite the right word to describe my feelings about this issue. I wouldn't say I "require" due dilligence. I wouldn't even say I "expect" due dilligence. What I actually said is that I'm biased because I believe she hasn't performed due dilligence which, according to my definition (misguided or otherwise), is true.

All of that really amounts to not a whole lot. It doesn't really change my advice to El. It would affect any advice I happened to give to Mrs. El (which would be to perform due dilligence along the lines I mentioned above) but I guess when you come right down to it, I'm in no position to "require" anything from either party.

I guess that's good news. In the event that I'm mistaken, then no harm can come from my bias. In the event that I'm right, then ... well... no harm can come from my bias either. I do choose to reveal my bias because it does affect my potential objectivity (who's really absolutely objective, anyway?). Anyway, "She hasn't done due dilligence." is and was nothing more than a statement of my opinion -- not of absolute objective fact unless you count it a 'fact' that it is my opinion.

A summary of my advice to El would be:

- vigorously advocate for what is in your best interest

- protect yourself

- don't sell yourself short because you feel guilty or as though you wish to appease your wife

- don't expect her to sell herself short -- expect her to vigorously advocate for herself (It's not realistic to expect her to look after your interests)

- conduct yourself in a responsible, ethical way


I'd be perfectly happy to turn that around and offer substantially the same advice to Mrs. El, as well. Though my bias might include some language about exploring whether or not she's really availed herself of all the opportunities to keep her family intact. I'd encourage her to delay or stop the divorce proceedings until such time as she's certain she's done that.

I don't think you and I are far apart on the practical aspects of the situation (we usually aren't). I think we just have different biases, perhaps.


Mys

I realized that I should probably detail another piece of my point of view:

Any statement to the effect of "It was Mrs. EL who chose divorce; that was all her doing" sounds stark raving bonkers to me.

Here's why.

Mrs. EL saw her marriage in deep trouble. She and her husband had once upon a time decided to invest in only one career rather than two. So long as they were reasonably happily or functionally married, they would both theoretically reap equal benefits of investing in one career. When both choose to invest in one career, the intention is usually that they both own it equally. However, when the marriage hits trouble, that often breaks down, and the at-home partner often finds themself on the short end of the stick, and what was "ours" suddenly isn't anymore.

So as a prudent SAHM with a child to care for, she did the responsible thing -- when her marriage was obviously in trouble, she checked into the laws in her state and consulted a lawyer. In the process she found out that should the situation come to divorce, her rights would be substantially reduced if she either moved out or got a job. This is important for her to know if she's going to have any chance of taking care of her responsibilities to her child.

Then her husband starts talking about Plan B. She comes here and checks out what that means. She finds out that the plan for Plan B in their case involves asking her to move out and to get a job, the very things that would do her great harm in the event of divorce proceedings. She knows from past experience that her husband will harass her pretty mercilessly if he chooses. She sees here that he is planning separation of finances that puts him in sole control of "his" income -- all of a sudden they don't jointly own the one career anymore. He says he won't let her and her son want, but given that their relationship is in a state of breakdown, no responsible mother could gamble on that.

At that point, the only responsible choice that I can see is to initiate divorce proceedings to make sure the rights of herself and her son are protected.

Under such circumstances, any pretense that the divorce was all her idea sounds just plain insane.

I'm not saying for a moment that she is blameless. I'm pretty disgusted at some of her behavior. But none of that trumps her responsibility to protect her ability to care for her child. I'm sure all of us here feel pretty confident EL would see his son was cared for, but under the circumstances it would be utterly irresponsible for Mrs. EL to gamble on that assumption. She can choose to gamble on her own future, but it wouldn't be right to gamble on her son's.

EL, as best I can figure, you had no idea what a difficult position your Plan B plans would put your wife in. I know I didn't. If that is the case, I think it's worth telling her that, and asking her if there are circumstances under which she would like to stay married.

Note "that she would like to stay married", not "that she would grudgingly be willing to stay married".

If there are, then you can consider whether what she would consider viable is viable for you. It may not be. For example, she might refuse to break off contact with the OM. Then again, she might agree to do so, and what would work for her might work for you. Asking might be a good idea.

bump