My story:
Dday 5-8-06 EA for about 1 year
me BH 36, ww 33, ds5, dd2, married 10 years


Been in plan A since mid May. Last contact was 8-4-06. I can't find any contact. My wife tells me "hire someone to follow me if you want, I'm not talking to OM anymore, it was wrong." ww changed jobs to get away from OM

The big problem that I face right now is that my wife has told me that we are done. She has not had love feelings toward me for a long time. We live together, but it feels like room mates to her. It repulses her to think about sex with me. Now the kicker for me: last week she talked about a 3rd child with me and has looked at bigger rings. I thought that both of these were a good sign. Last night when I brought up the 3rd child bit she told me that she had a passing thought about a 3rd one, but doesn't want one now.

She has made it clear that the only reason that we were together this last year was because OM was making her life happy and she could tough it out at home with me.

I have made many changes to me to better me - plan A. She sees them, but there is just nothing there for her to build on. She even asked how do you M2L keep doing what you are doing and get nothing in return from her?

Ii feel like getting a legal S and then moving on with my life. I am getting nothing from her and I deserve much more, I deserve someone who would love me back. I cried myself to sleep - ww didn't hear me. And to top it off, this AM she brings me coffee while I'm getting ready for work.

I think I'm done after Christmas - Plan B or D I don't care either way. Everything I do for us she is pushing back at me and I can't keep pulling the whole load by myself.

M2L - feeling very done today

M2L, if the affair is truly over, then Plan A time is over. Plan A is only meant to be a very temporary stage while the affair is ongoing. Once the affair is ended, it is onto recovery, but it doesn't sound like that is happening here.

Do you know why? Is she still in contact? Did she disrespect you before the affair?

If the affair has truly ended and the lack of recovery efforts continue then, ironically, divorce is probably the one thing that would help your marriage. I wager it is the only thing that would shock her into changing from a freeloader to a buyer. Dr. Harley talks about how Joyce changed him from a freeloader to a buyer by dumping him. She would accept no less. And he respected her for it.

As it is now, she is just along for the free ride and has no intention of doing any work on the relationship. She does this, of course, becuase SHE CAN. She can get away with giving nothing, but getting lots in return. I suspect this would change if you set some clear boundaries and stopped tolerating this treatment.

I think that it erodes her respect for you to know that you have no boundaries. Women do not respect men they can run over and for most of us, our feelings of love are contingent upon respect. I think if you respect yourself enough to set firm boundaries, that she will grow to do the same, which will effect her feelings toward you.

M2L,

I’m sorry that you’re in this and I know exactly how you are feeling. I’m in the same situation with my WW as you and yours but I’m about five months behind you. I think a really dark Plan B is a good option for you right now but I wouldn’t go legal S/DV, let her she that by herself. I’m pulling for you and best of luck.

{{{{{HUGS M2L}}}}}

Feelings are transient. She's still in the heavy heavy fog, right?

How long have you plan A'd? There is a reason it's for a finite time. Maybe it is time for plan B after Christmas. Only you can decide.

It is always worth saving a marriage, as long as it is not at your personal expense.

You need to do everything you can so if it does end, you have no regrets.

Remember, most marriages don't recover from just plan A. That's why there's plan B (I think Pep says that!)

{{{{{Hugs again, cause I"m sure you need them}}}}} And I"m sorry for all you're going through.

Thanks Mel, Mrs R and Mik

I have my boundaries and she knows them. I used Mr W main one that he will not stay in a loveless M. My ww tells me to move on then. She can't give me what I need.

My plan A - one major issue with my wife was my mother. Too close and seemed to have a hand in our M. Well right after dday I talked to my mother about this and then tolf my wife what I did. BIG improvement. Should have done that a long time ago.

This past summer we (me, ww, ds5 and dd2) took 3 moterhome trips to some great family Adventure parks, 3 family trips to water parks, one overnight trip with ww to a resort (nice without the kids) and then last week ww and I went to Chicago shopping for 2 night. SHE LOVED ALL of it, but doesn't love me. She even wants to plan to got to water parks in Jan sometime. HOW do you want that,but don't want to be with me????? HOW??

Me leaving my home: My wife and I had our home build in 2001 and we put in the grass and such - lots of work you know. We plant many many flowers each summer. What I'm saying I that my wife loves our home, yard, kids and even doing all of it with me. This is why I'm so hurt and confused. As many here know it would be hard to leave my kids and my life if I move out. I feel that my wife is the most beautiful women I have even seen and I'm so scared that I will never meet another like her. I didn't know what else I can do. Mel, I didn't know that between Dr H and his wife.
thanks
M2L

M2L,

I hear you, my man! I really do. And no one faults you for the feelings you are having, or if you want to throw in the towel. It is tough being the BS, and even tougher when the WS makes no effort (believe me, I know!!!).

But here's the rub? Please make sure that you are doing this because you truly are done. I hear your Taker loud and clear in that last post. And as I said, it is natural to want these things and the pain to end.

But there is something bigger here. Look to God and ask "am I done?" Look at those two kids straight in the eyes, and ask "am I done?" You see, there are more people involved here than just you and your wife.

I know you know this. And if your wife would get this, then your marriage would be recovering. But things are as they are right now.

Is your wife in IC? Are you two in MC? If there is no effort being made by her to improve things, then there is no chance! My wife made no effort...if she had of, we would have made it. I have no doubt of that.

But your wife has to be continually be confronted with this, M2L. She has to understand that she too has a responsibility...not only to herself and to you...but also to God, and to those kids. She has to be made constantly aware that EVERYTHING possible should be tried in order to save those kids' family. She has to make the wffort, even when she isnt feeling it.

She cant sit comfortably by and live like "roommates." She is not your roommate, and you are not hers. Refuse to live that way!!

You see, in the end...by making your marriage operate as a marriage, you will force her to make a decision one way or the other. She will either make the effort (even though she isnt feeling it right now) or she will run.

Either way, you will have your answer...and your future.

If not, if you walk...there will always be that nagging question in the back of your mind...if there was one more thing you two could have done.

So, I guess what I am saying is to make sure your Taker is not controlling your decisions here. Make sure...take your time. There is no rush to end things, is there?

Put the responsibility back on her for her half of the marriage and family. Make her shoulder her burden. Get her to counseling so that she can maybe see what her possibilities are.

You can throw in the towel. Again, I wouldnt blame you. But take your time, pray on it, look those kids in the eyes...

Personally, I would ask your wife if she truly does not love you or is it her anger and disappointment in other things speaking. I would let her know that you are willing to do MC with her. If she says she doesn't love you any longer, I would suggest that you either do a Plan B or Plan D. You owe it to your children to let them grow up in a household where love is expressed and shown. If your W will not allow that to happen in your lives, I would suggest that you devote yourself to your children and eventually allow yourself to find someone that will love and respect you. Do not let weeks and months turn into years. If she is willing to do anything to help the M, then I say do it. If not... and she doesn't love you... move on and be happy. You will not have to look back and wonder the "what if's" as you have given her every opportunity to be your wife. I wish you peace and happiness... and honestly, when you find that, your children will be happy too. I have learned that first hand from my 11 year old.

MortM,

I have taken alot of time. I have read over 200 hours here and posted many times. I do see my kids and the love of what a family brings to them and us(mom and dad). I rocked my dd2 to sleep lastnight while crying a little and she said in her tiny little voice "it's ok dady - whav u." MAN than KILLS me. My wife is a Bit#@ for putting us through this, but I do love her so much. Pitty party going on here and I need to end the party.

When I get a small crumb from my wife like having a 3rd kid I take it and run with it in my mind only to be crushed later with it. I know - roller coaster!! It is not that I won't hang on - it's just that I think the ride is almost over and when I get off my life along with my kids lives will be wrose.

Mel said that maybe plan D is best and if it doesn't hit my wife in the head then it will have to help me somehow.

I have been in plan A along with my boundaries for 6 months now and I don't see much from my wife. Bob pure told me to keep the taker locked up for a few more months as he did, but I think that his wife was helping some.

thanks
M2L

I understand how you feel. I am in the thick of it right now too. I sway continously back and forth in my mind on what I want to do. I am afraid to have hope yet I am afraid to give up.

Two years ago when WS said he couldn't be in the marriage anymore, I forced myself to work on me in IC (and still am). He tried IC but quit. He would occassionally do MC with me. Just lately he has been wanting to do more and actually making the appts. himself for us. But he still says he notices my changes and I'm "everything he could dream of" but it's too late. He says he loves me but can't show it. He still sticks around but says he wants it over. He does loving things for me yet says he doesn't see it working out. He is depressed and barely takes care of himself now. Plain and simple, he (we) are stuck.

I had to make a decision for him and that was refusing to live like this anymore. I refuse to be in a loveless marriage. It doesn't mean I don't love him or that I want it over right now. I just can't do anymore in the M if he is not willing to. The MC says that WH is deeply hurt and needs to confront childhood issues in order to move on. The MC says WH has shut down emotionally and couldn't be in a relationship with anyone even if he tried until he gets help.

Not until I made that decision did it send him into action but I am still skeptical about follow through. He says he is committed to intense IC now but still "does not see this working out". We are separating but no decision has been made as to our M. I am not even sure I could make a decision right now. I have had to "let him go".

I completely understand where you are at right now - when do you give up? I just don't know. But it feels like the more I hang in there, the more hurt I get.

Yes my wife has told me that she feels nothing for me. She is not mean when she says this she is just telling me how she feels.

Our kids a happy, they don't see our probelms and we don't argue much and not in front of them when we do. My wife will cook dinner and get the kids food for them and me too. Very nice day to day. Like to shop, go to dinner, watch tv together even suggests the two of us going to dinner alone. She wants to spend time with me, but doesn't want to around. I told her that we could not be friends if we D.

thanks again,
M2L

You need to get your wife to MC. Will she speak with Dr. Harley. She doesn't feel anything for you because she doesn't allow herself to feel anything for you. If she made loving gestures towards you, she would feel love for you. Something just has to get the ball rolling.

I have talked to Steve H twice and each time he asked me if my wife will talk to him. I have asked and she askes me how talking to someone will change her feelings. I tell her that they won't, just talk to him. She feels like she has tried too long and it is just done.

I'm thinking of looking for an attorney for a LS. I just would love to know which way to go: more plan A and wait (Bob pure said his wife took 8-9 months to start helping with their M) or start a LS and let her start seeing paperwork.

PS - I not being needy, begging or a doormate. I'm being a loving H trying to keep the four of us together and make it better than before the EA.

M2l

I'm in similar boat, my wife told me she's no longer love me and doesn't think it's possible to be in love with me again. Her effort in working on our M is that she's staying in the same house and bed with me, that's all she could do right now. She told me that she'll give to the end of March before she moved out and be spearated. Don't know if your wife have talk about her moving out or set a date for S before?

m2l, sorry you're frustrated.

I know that feelng well.

I found the only way to move our recovery on was to not fear to end it.

During a bout of sulks from Squid I asked her " what are you home, Squid ? In what way is what you're doing helping us rebuild our marriage ?"

Answer from Squid " I'm home aren't I?".

"Yes, and I think that sgreat. However I want to build the marrige we deserve with you, not have you home under sufferance. The door to our marriage is unlocked to both of us. I will not tie you here. If you do not want to recommit to our marrige, you are free to leave. Just know that I value myself too highly to remain with you in as seemingly loveless environment as this. I want to work on our marrige and I will wait to see if you do. Bu not for ever baby. Not for ever".

This made Squid reconsider and she started being far more amenable soon afterwards.

But in truth, had she left, I was ready to lose her at that point.

Are you ?




Please know that I will await your decision to

miketc,

When my wife asked me about moving out lastnight i told her she could mave anytime she wants to. I'll help her move. She doesn't want to move out of the comfy house and such. Not her words, but I know how she feels. I worked too hard making my life what it is today to just move the He!! out. Neither one of us wants to move. We both love the kids and want to stay home with them, but we are not living a normal M life wither. My wife said that she won't live in a loveless M either. OK now what??? I'm thinking maybe Mel is right about a D. M2L no longet at home or around - see what you just gave up Mrs M2L? Maybe just hope on my part.

M2L

Hi Bob,
thanks for stopping in.

I don't know if I'm ready to lose her? I ask myself if I've done enough for us. Have I locked up my taker long enough? I say this because we get along great day to day, but not good as a husband and wife meeting EN. I'm sure that this rate I will have an answer by the end of the year.

Oh - my wife just called to say that she would love to go to Vegas in Feb or March. What is with that???? I'm going mad. Maybe I need to feed my taker more Christmas cookies. WW baked all day Sunday!!!

Thanks agian,
M2L

M2L, I am in the same sitch as you. It sucks, and it hurts like heck, and I feel hopeless. My WW is packing to leave with our 2 kids even now.

God, give us hope when we are hopeless, strength when we are weak, and peace in the storm.

Nothing that resembles anything close to a recommittment to your marriage. She may sense you are getting frustrated with her and is throwing you a bone or maybe she just wants to go to Las Vegas!

Your right Mel,

My wife enjoys the good times with me, like Vegas would be. She has told me that she would give her right are to be in love with me. She doesn't feel it and I think I will try to keep Plan A unitl maybe Feb sometime. About 9 months. I have read of others that have taken that long. i have my boundaries and she knows them. By that time if nothing has happened by then I'm sure by LB will be empty and I won't care if I lose her. She is a good person over all, a beautiful woman, a loving mother and a great cook. She is the whole ball of wax for me if it works out so I'll keep trying.

M2L

If she would give her right arm to be in love with you, she needs to start trying more. She needs to go to MC, talk with Dr. Harley, read some books on the subject like "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." If she were trying, she needs to try showing you some affection and SF. You can't feel love towards someone if you don't allow yourself to show them affection. The saying goes "Fake it until you make it." The more you do loving things, the more you'll feel in love. You need to do the Vegas thing and really romance it up. Hopefully she will respond.

Jim and everyone else,

Thanks for your posts. You are the only people that I know who can relate to me and my sitch.

I think my wife has had it too nice for so long that she takes her life style for granted. At her job she has to work 4 days a month and can chose to work them when she wants to and she can add any more days she wishes. How is that for a job??? I work full time and she is with the kids on her days off. Her and the kids both love the time spent together. If there is something my wife likes and wants to buy we will talk it over and get it if we want to. Money is not growing on trees, but we do okay. We chose to have time with our kids over making more money by wife working more.

Here is what I'm afraid of - that by the time she comes around to helping with this M I'll have lost all love for her and will have moved on.

Just my thoughts,
maybe2late

M2L,

consider yourself lucky that she wants to do things with you, my WW doesn't want to have anything to do with me other than things have to do with the kids. By her doing things with you (and with the kids) may mean she's working it, slow but she's trying. This may not be your speed, but it may be hers. I would not force the M issue myself, of course I'm a lot newer at this than you.

My WH had said the same things ... and things were very nasty and hopeless between us not too long ago.

I got him to talk to SH by asking him to help ME understand and heal and get through this. Basically, focused on please do this to help me as opposed to it being MC.

In that first call, SH got my WH to admit that it might be possible to fix things, we just didn't know how. And wouldn't it be the ideal to be in love with your spouse and have a great happy, marriage?

It was all pretty low-pressure and logical, even for my WH, who at the time had nothing but contempt for me. If your WW is saying that she'd "give her right arm" to be in love with you again, that's a much better starting point than we were at!

I give SH a lot of credit, becasue things are really starting to improve for us. Very slowly, but they are getting there. My WH is even doing homework with me and we're communicating, I've even heard a few ILY's thrown in recently.

So try the "please do this to help me" approach for getting your WW to talk to SH. I think you have a good place to start, and he is good at getting those doors open.

-AmI.

Just a reminder - about 4 weeks ago I did move out for 5 days. Each day my wife asked me to come over for dinner or to play with the kids. Sat came and I planned not to go over to my house when my wife called to ask when I was coming to play with the kids. I went home that morning and told her that I'm staying here from now on and not going back to the place I was staying. She never said a word about it. Plan B would be hard with not seeing the kids all the time.

M2L

You know AmI,

I will keep that in my back pocket for now. Maybe when the time comes that she wants me out before I agree I ask her to do this for me (phone Steve).

M2L,

I'm sure others have already said this, but "Do not move out under any circumstance". Let her move if she wants to.

I have another question:

I have read here that sometimes it takes as much time for the WS to recover and come out of the fog as the A lasted. My ww's case about a year - little less.

Could this be the case? I ask because my wife does show guilt and remorse. She told me a few days ago "I bet you want to shoot me" and "I brought all of this sadness into our lives." I know I'm asking a question that no one knows the answer to.

Let me add that yes I'm in Plan A, but I have been detached some and that helps me a little.

thanks
M2L

It has been said that it could take 2x to 3x longer than the affair lasted...once NC is permanent. Recovery is the HARDEST part of all of this.

Also, ditto what was said above...DO NOT MOVE OUT!!

Hey M@ just checking on you.

Remember what some FWW said to us, Feelings are temporary. Commitment on the other hand is what you make of it.It shows yours character.

Dont make it easier for your WW to exit(if that is how she feels today).

You continue being the rock! Dont you dare move buddy!

i am betting all on YOUR INTEGRITY.

For your kids sake. You fight for what is right. If you want to rest........rest. But Dont you dare move out.

Never LET it be said by your kids that "Daddy walked out on us because he couldn't hack it..."

You are alot stronger than you think.........trust God.

Go to God.....HE has always been there.

Praying for you.

NC007.

Luv from Jamaica.

Thanks buddy,

I guess some days are easy because we don't talk about us or the EA. I don't ask because I guess I know the answers before my wife gives them to me.

Then some days are hard like last night. I asked her about SF and she said that the thought of it with me makes her sick. Well my taker peaked his head out and told her that I can't go on like this forever and she agreed. That is what lead up to todays post.

How could you want to hug someone so much that you can kill them? I feel both today.

Just a down day and I feel bad about posting it here to all of you. I have read enough to know most of this stuff.

Thanks agian NC,
M2L

Here is a suggestion. Don't talk about SF at all. Try and make SF happen. Talking about SF will only make SF more unlikely. Let's put it this way. Before you had SF for the first time with your wife, did you ask her, "what date are we going to have SF on?" No. Just keep plugging. Play the romantic role. Take her out on a nice getaway weekend, go out have a good time, try and give her a massage, have a bottle of champagne. Keep trying. Don't push it, but certainly don't give up. Once it happens the first time, things will snowball downhill. Just keep being romantic, and eventually she will break down.

Thanks for idea Jim, but we went away last week for two nights - nothing. We did do it a few days ago - she said she needed something and it has been awhile. I thought I could build on that - not.

M2L

Sounds like M2L's taker has made an appearance. You just got some a few nights ago. Don't go looking a gift horse in the mouth. You aren't going to go from no SF to 4 times a week. Talking about SF will only make her more reluctant to have SF with you in the future. Don't go into those getaways with expectations. Just keep trying. Here's a suggestion. Go to your bookstore and read up on different techniques and stuff. Next time you get called in to pinch hit, try and knock one out of the park. Wow her with your new found skills. Take what you can get for now and keep your taker at bay. When it comes to SF, make sure your giver is in full control.

M2L,

I'm beginning to think that I may be lucky that my WW just went ahead and filed the divorce herself. Granted, I'm in a very different situation as we don't have kids. I can't imagine what this whole process would be like when you have kids to consider as well. I commend you for how strong you have been.

I have no words of wisdom for you. You were there for me, and I just wanted to let you know that I am praying for you and your family.

Scotty

Jim - point taken about being greedy and yes ww gets as much as she gives. ahem! New ways - good idea!


Scotty - how have you been? Yes it is very hard with kids. About a month ago I moved out for 5 days (all I could stand away from them). When I did this my 5 year old son told me "daddy without you I don't have a life, you are my life." That still hurts and sometings I will never forget. Thanks for the words though.

M2L

MayBe,

You need to decide if you can live without her. I think you need to pull back some. Be kind, be civil, but be busy with the kids, with your work, and with activities that YOU enjoy.

Take the kids with you to do things, come back laughing, smile and be kind, but leave it at that.

She may have no feelings for you, but she is attached somehow. If she truly wanted out, she could get out and very likely end up with the house, the kids, and good chunk of your money. You need to see a lawyer and discuss your options. Then you need to call the Harley's and get a plan. If I recall correctly Steve H. wants to talk with your W. Set it up for YOURSELF. Make sure she knows this is so he can HELP YOU.

After all YOU are the one that needs help right? You have been betrayed. You have a W that does not love you. You have a W that doesn't want to live in a loveless marriage, but refuses to provide any love or even kindness. Doesn't that qualify for needing help? I think so and if you presented it to her in that fashion she just might talk with Steve Harley.

Don't worry about making her mad. You WANT her mad. You see any emotion is better than in withdrawal which is where she is right now.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Hi M2L,

Before I reply to your quote above, I wonder if you could reply to what JL wrote to you above?

W/ regard to what you wrote on NC's thread...

She doesn't feel love for you b/c she's not putting in the effort to.

I know she thinks she is trying to....but she really isn't.

Why doesn't she want to go to IC or MC?

Why doesn't she try having more SF w/ you?

W/o making a true effort, it'll take a LONG time before she gains her feelings back for you.

What did YOU think of the conversation?

~ Marsh

PS: I had an EA.

I felt ZIP for my BH.

I DID NOT want to have SF w/ him, but I made myself do it in order to bring back those feelings for him. We even changed the way we did it...for some reason, I prefer to initiate it and be the agresssor now. I didn't like him coming to me, which worked out good for both of us b/c he actually perfers it this way too. He still gets to let me know when he wants to, it's just that he has to let me start it and get it all going first.

I went to IC, I've been reading and disecting all of my thoughts and feelings trying to gain an inderstanding about who I am. And why I did what I did.

It takes WORK! Alot of it.

I started asking for things, stopped DJing, started making more time for the two of us together...

I NOW feel lots and lots of love for him.

It takes commitment.

As far as I can see, your WW hasn't REALLY given this a go yet.

Has she read any of the books written by Dr. Harley?

~ Marsh

Thanks Marsh for looking up my post.

Yes - I am starting to feel like I could live without her. Starting to.

My wife feels like that talking to Steve or a MC will not help her change her feelings for me. My wife has told me many times that she has lost the loving feelings a few years ago and that the EA is what keep her in our M that last year.

The EA started out as friends / co-workers. After the EA ended OM went to IC and the IC told him that he is the victim and his wife is the abuser. This was told through a friend who still works with the OM. This friend knows what happened (EA) and has worked to help stop it and to keep the two apart. My wife told me this weekend that she feels that she would like to leave a message for om telling him not to give up with IC and that they are done so don't hold out hope for them to get back together. My wife said that she knows she would not call IF she thinks it would lead to any emotions again. I told her that this is one of my boundaries and that I understand she wants to help him on a human to human level, but that it would only add to my hurt. I used a lot of I statements. When we were done talking she said that she would not call him and doesn't want me to feel betrayed agian. This is why she told me about her feelings to start with. We ended the talk with her saying - I hope this doesn't bring you down for the day. We had family over in the evening so I didn't let it stop me from having fun and giving my wife a little smile whenever she looked my way.

This is the point where she told me that maybe I'm not seeing her changes and what she has done. I told her that yes I do see some things, but much more will be needed and that I won't live like this forever.

Steve H has asked me to try to get my wife on the line with him, but if she doesn't want to then don't push it. His words "the way you are going now will take longer to achive your goal." So yes you and he are saying the same thing here.

Marsh, my wife has said many of the WS babble "he is so easy to talk to, we love each other, maybe we both M the wrong people." this was right after d-day. Now she doesn't want him in her life she just wants him to be in a happy M with his wife. She thinks if this doesn't happen then he will always keep thinking there is a chance for them to get back together. I have talked about a NC letter and she tells me that they already have NC so why bother.

Like JL said - if it was so bad with me and she wanted out then she would go. She could afford to IF she wanted.

How long was your EA Marsh?


thanks
M2L

Good for you!



This shows that she not only cares about your feelings, but that she respects you as well.



You're doing everything right!



How about asking her to talk to him as a Christmas present to you?

Tell her you need her help in dealing w/ things better.



Exactly! She chooses you and your marriage every day she stays w/ you.

Her feelings are all over the place, and she questions them, but she is still choosing you....every day. Same as you are for her.


Six months.


~ Marsh

JL wrote:

You need to decide if you can live without her. I think you need to pull back some. Be kind, be civil, but be busy with the kids, with your work, and with activities that YOU enjoy.

Take the kids with you to do things, come back laughing, smile and be kind, but leave it at that.

ME:

I told the kids (5,2) this AM that when daddy gets home from work the three of us will go to the store and get mommies present from them. My wife heard this and suggested that we all go. We can take the kids to see Santa and then daddy and the kids can slip off to a store or two to get mommies gifts. After that we can drive around to see lights and then to eat.

So I was planning to go with the kids and then my wife wants to go too. This is happening all the time. She doesn't act removed or depressed, she acts like a mother/wife when it comes to family things.

I told her this weekend that we sure have done a lot of Christmas things this year so far. It has been a lot!! She said that that is what she wanted and was happy for it turning out that way.

M2L

edited to add the Family Commitment is #2 on her EN list.

Marsh wrote this about calling Steve H:

How about asking her to talk to him as a Christmas present to you?

Tell her you need her help in dealing w/ things better.

Me:

I talked to ww today and got to talking about a MC we went to months ago. I told her that she was not very good. WW said "that one guy you talked to on the phone is good isn't he?" I said yes and that I would love for her to talk to him. Just to hear him out nothing more - no pressure. Make it my Christmas present - help me understand a few things better." No responce, but not a no from her. I'll bring it up again.

I'm suprised that she even talked at all about MC.

M2L

Do you own HNHN or SAA? A lot of stubborn people won't read them if you ask them to, but will look at them of their own doing. So, I would recommend leaving them out and letting your wife's curiousity get the best of her. The power of suggestion, like a subliminal message.

I'm so glad you asked her to do this for you.

A phone call is alot less threatening than an office visit is.

I hope she'll agree to it.

She just needs some hope, and a point in the right direction.

When you bring this up again, be sure to keep it about YOU...YOUR need, for YOU...

I like Jim's idea too...leaving those books around the house.

I'd even try to "hide" them... finding something hidden would make me even more curious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

I am soo in agreement with this hidden thing! M2......listen to MM and J95...i am going to do the same thing.

Remember what MM said.its so true....She is choosing to stay with you now.

Hang in there my brother.

So ww calls me - very soft remorseful voice and says:


I would understand if you wanted to leave me.

NC sound like anyone you know????

Talked about OM and OM not being the person she thought he was. The OM in this case is a Dr. So I had that going against me. Most other people are less then, not in my case, or so I thought until today when ww told me that.

WW also told me that for the last few months she was angry at him and now she feels just sad for him. Sad at the person he is and that we have come so far (Plan A working). My wife also told me that she really feels totally different about OM than she has in months.

I think she is starting to see the WHOLE thing differently and seeing it for the mistake it was. I kinda hope she is starting to crash. I almost need to see a crash happen.

Off to shopping with her and the kids.

M2L

That sounds very promising. Hang in there and keep doing what you are doing. Hopefully she will talk to the Harley's. They are very good at talking to the WS.

M2L,

I think you don't understand something. Her talking to Steve H is for YOU, it really is. No matter what she says or does not say to him, he will understand the situation better. If he says something that helps her, great. But, really this is about YOU, and she needs to fully understand this and so do you.

You are expecting him to change her, that will NOT HAPPEN...until she is ready. What you can expect and allow is for Steve Harley to change YOU. That is what you are seeking. You need to see it this way and so does she.

It does sound as if you are putting some deposits in the love bank. That is good, I believe I posted to you SKM's chronicles, if you learned anything from them, it is that this takes time. Keep up the deposits but stay a bit withdrawn. Also see if she will help YOU by talking to SH.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Please remember they consider their counceling "coaching". Only those willing to be "coached" can be coached, that would be you. It is not your W. She also needs to hear this as well.

M2L,

What JL wrote was and is 'profound'. Many of us already know how often and how capable JL is at putting things so precisely (not the word I wanted.....to tired to spell the other one - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

So for what my measly 2 cents is worth, please read JL's post again and consider deeply his words. They will have more of an impact if you choose to apply them. An impact both to you (1st) then to your W (the real one).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
L.

I took the day off work to spend with my wife shopping, lunch and such - the 15 hours together part so I will bring up the talking to Steve H for me part.

JL - I see it your way and it makes sence.

thanks all,
M2L

Mey M2L, THAT IS GREAT!!!!!!!!

I am happy and excited to see progress, even if it is snail pace.

Prayerfully when they do emerge from their "cocoon", we would be able to tell them about us here. Come to even visit me sometime. I would put you all up and let you tour here with us.(No hotel expense and some GOOD authentic Jamaican spicy jerk food)!

You know it is easy to forget but remember........You change YOU. you cannot change her........does that sounds familiar?

I am really happy for you.i really am......oh yes , in the future i hope you "GIT SOME!!"

NC,

I'll keep giving you advice if you let me come down there to stay with you. Is your place an "all-inslusive"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

jim,
lets make a deal......pray all our wives will truly become wives then we will have a reunion here in jamaica and we can brag about us attending the same courses online.and how we hook up.

yeah feel free.......come for some prime lobster,deep fried fish seasoned to the bone. with some jerk chicken and salad on the side (pretend to eat healthy.) since most of the stuff prepared are not by the gas stove but open flame the flavours are sealed in and cooked to perfection.......oh yes wash it down with some red stripe beer.

then go to sleep, wake up later hit the dance strip or take in a local play or rafting then rest again.......some torrid SF then fresh up to the clean air and night noises in the country. The kids can watch cable.

We play on the beach in the night then sleep again......repeat the next day........

i pray that our WW look and realize that they have the best of their years ahead of them.

For the sake of all thats good in our children's lives.

have a good one M2L! and Jim.........nuff sun shine till next time.

easy mon.

yesterday I took off work and spent the day shopping with my wife. We shopped a little and talked a lot. A LOT. She just started talking and by the time she was done she said
"M2L I never thought you would change into the person you are. You are so much better than OM was."

That is when she crashed and started crying and saying what a bad person she is and continued with:

- OM is a(*&%^$ and he can go to *&%&^%

-OM is not the person I thought he was

- M2L, you are by far a better father and H and person all around

- She would like to call him just to tell him that she has moved on long ago and is happy now. Here is the weird part for me. My wife wants any revenge to come from the act of her and I living a happy life (that is what has been said on these boards many times) I talked to her about not calling and she agreed - just wanted to rub it in his face. I said NC is best

-my wife said I'm content at home with you right now and I don't want to split up us or the kids.

- my wife cried and said she feels used. I asked why and she said "don't start that with me, you know why I feel used."

I let her know that she is not a bad peron or wife. Yes she made mistakes, but she has made the right choice to get out of it.

She could not take her eyes off me. I missed those eyes, they look like her old eyes.

I have been working for this day for 7 months and I almost feel like - now what? I think I will be there for her and try to fill her LB as much as I can with out pushing too much.

I did look at her during a quite time and said softly ILY. She said I know.

M2L

SF, that's what. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, just slowly lead her to marriage builders and slowly get her to buy into the system as well. Keep taking it slowly. Resist the temptation to say, "Okay, we're cured now." Don't get complacent.

Congrats, M2L! Hopefully I will be able to post a similar story in the next few months.

awww, M2L, I'm so happy for you...both of you.

Congrats.

Time to get a new nic?

~ Marsh

I forgot to say thank you to God and everyone here that has helped. I know I have a long way to go, but I feel like my wife will be helping some also.

M2L

Oh M2L, you are so lucky!!!! I am so happy for you!! I hope my hard work gets me to where you are. I just read your whole post yesterday and I wanted to reach out to you. I will be posting some time today on my thread. I hope you get a chance to read it and help me out. I'm feeling very lost, scared and confused.

Thanks I-P,

I'll take a look at you post

I see your very new into recovery - a little over a month. It is hard, but stay with plan A.

M2L,

Hard fought and well done.........continue to transform before Her eyes and rely on God's grace and patience to get you thru this.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!.

hope my WW is definitely like yours.......pray that she too will turn the corner. one day at a time.

any more baking?

MAKE SURE YOU CONTINUE doing what you are doing.

really love you man......so damn proud of you.

M2L:

I just posted. I'm just feeling so confused right now. I want to do a great Plan A and I understand Plan A, but I just don't feel like I'm doing anything right. I don't feel like I'm reaching my H at all. I'm sure you felt that way during your Plan A. Your W still wanted to do things with you though. I don't think my H feels that way anymore. I really feel like I'm losing him. I need to get him back. I really don't feel like I can live without him.

I did make a lot of personal changes. My H said he did recognize my changes and he likes them, but he said they aren't making a difference. They are not making him make up his mind to stay with the M. I wonder if that's because he still has contact with the OW. He still doesn't know what he wants (at least that's what he said the last time we talked).

I'm lost and I really need some help.

Yes, I found out about the affair on October 6th, but I wasn't very surprised by it. It just confirmed my fears. I knew my marriage was in trouble in May and I knew the OW was a threat to my M since June. I have been making personal changes since June, so I was doing some of Plan A without really knowing it. I didn't know about MB at the time. So, I've been working at this for some time.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Its wonderful and there is life in her eyes! That was big for me. Go slow. Back off the saying the ILY's just keep showing her. Her definition of love is skewed right now, what you are offering is way more profound than a phrase.

She'll get it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You are right about the ILY. I have said it once in the last 3-4 months and I will hold off for now.

Shortly after dday I told her that she and OM lived in a fantasy world. She got pi55ed at me for that. Yesterday she tells me that the EA was a fantasy world. I can't argue with that.

thanks again,
M2L

Thank you NC,

It is not done yet for me. I will keep learning all I can. Yes Gods hands were very deep in the mix. Somethings I can't explain other than Gods grace.

You know I pray for you and your wife. Your wife sounds so close to mine that I feel like you are so close to your goal. NC, my wife changed jobs to get away from OM, but her one friend that knew what happened still taked to OM. The friend would talk about OM some to my wife not knowing that this hurt things. My wife told me that IF this friend had not fill her in about OM from time to time that my wife would probably have called OM to see how he was doing. That makes her sick now to even care about it at the time. Maybe this is why your wife talked to her OM.

It doesn't mean she doesn't care about you it's just hard on everyone - her too.


You are doing great and keep it up. I want to visit like you said.


Always more baking - wife loves it!! Peanut butter balls are the best.
M2L

Some things I learned from my wife now that she gets it:

I was meeting some of my wife's EN when I thought I wasn't

My wife thinks of her EA as a fantasy world and not real

OM is not a great as she thought

My wife feels used by OM

When I improved because of Plan A it was noticed by my wife even when I thought it wasn't.

The WS fog talk that was all too hurtfull, now my wife hates to hear what was said by her

My wife sees a strong man in her H.


I writing this not because I'm so great, but maybe other BS might have heard or felt these things. There is hope as long as you keep trying and get help here on these boards.

I am no where near done with my recovery, but I have a wife who will now work with me on it.

best wishes,
M2L

For any new BS out there, when you read the things the pros (the ones with lots of posts by their name) say please listen. I know some things did not sound right to me or I though were way off base. These people have helped many of us and they are right on most of the time. Some times you just have to have blind trust in their words.

M2L

I have a quesion about the coaching with Steve Harley-if I could get my husband to do it-thats a big if-does it help when they are still so confused and in the fog?? Should I make an appt for just me at 1st and then both of us at a later time? My husband is not living at home right now-my doing I gave him an ultimatum-a mistake I think but I cant redo the past-I will do anything I can to make things better on my part. Do you really like the Harleys?? We went to counselor here and he hated it-he never did admit anything about the other woman during counseling and then refused to go after it was revealed.

I've heard thousands of times around here that Dr. Harley is VERY persuasive to WHs. He's not a miracle worker, but if there is a part of them that is listening, he can get through.

Going to a MC while the WS is still in contact with OP (other person) will not help. The WS will not tell the truth and just cover things up. Then they will say "see I tried and it didn't work."

I have talked to Steve H twice and each time he told me to stay with plan A and to try to get my ww to talk to him. If she said no then don't push it. Spending time with the ws and plan A would do the trick, but it would take a lot longer that way. Yes the Harley's are good at what they do. Perhaps you set up a call for just you to get a game plan from them. This way you won't feel so lost. I know that feeling. You are not alone, many of us here have felt like you do.

My wife and I went to a MC twice and she was NOT good at all, most are not. I went once alone and she (MC) pretty much told me that I would be able to see my kids a lot after a D and all with the way the law is in my state. Thanks a lot lady.

You are no different than others here and please don't give up hope. Now maybe ask this question on your thread, others may have better advise.

M2L

Thanks for the info-you're right I do feel lost. I dont want to give up hope but each day is a struggle.

Hello M2L. I just see you as Young Jedi now. Sprouting all those grey hair.

Keep plugging away with plan A.

Somehow i think Plan A in your case should be like a character growth. (not neccessarily called plan A)

Hail to my brother man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

NC,

It is like my wife is kissing my a55 right now. It is way weird. When she talks to me it is in a very soft voice. She has gone from wanting me out of the house a month ago to not wanting to split up.

The guilt is starting to hit her. Like I told you, she told me that she would understand if I wanted to leave and move on with someone better than her. SOUND LIKE ANYONE ELSE NC???

For the first time since this happened I truly feel like I'm in the driver seat. I'm not just holding on for dear life and doing the best I can. Yes I felt that way, but I also had my boudaries and watched for contact.

Something else is weird. Before this change in my wife it was not always clear what I was being told by the good people here. Now I see everything word for word. That is why I say to newbies here - listen to every word it is true and correct.
sunny and 50 today.
M2L

This is exactly what happened to me. I got quoted that just the other day, along with "The affair and the problems in our marriage are unrelated," another standard line.

I hope the recovery continues for you! Be strong!

SDGuy

I'm getting jealous of you two. NC with his torrid SF, and you getting your [censored] kissed by your wife. When is it going to be my turn (and I sure as ****** don't want it to be after 7 months like you, M2L)? I want a REAL Christmas present from her this year.

thanks SDGuy

Jim - NC got some, I get my a55 pissed - you got a raise!!

Now you want more??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

J95,

Be patient young jedi.......you need to see the bigger picture. Its a lifetime together. You just wait. Based on my own experience......when you plan A, It is NOTICED BY your WW. they really do notice.

You are going to make it.

Jim,

the turning point came about 4 months after complete NC. It takes time and I have to say I don't recall any other BS handling it as well as you are. I have read between 150 and 200 hours here so I've come across a BS or two.

Yep - my wife told me this exact same thing. "M2L I can't believe the changes you have made. I like them."

sorry double post??????

M2L I took up cooking as a way to try to spend more time with my wife too. Funny thing is I really like it now. The other day I ended up standing in line at the post office for 1.5hr and read a cookbook about cheesecakes (the post office is in a store) so I made one for fun. NGW really likes cheesecake and it seemed like a fun challenge but turned out to be pretty easy (just need a special 'springform' pan)

Oh you're right about listening to the advice here. Its AMAZING how accurate the 'oldtimers' are. A couple times I have thought 'if only I listened when so-and-so told me...' Oh well, hindsight and all. Our situation has been improving a lot too since NGW has got onboard with recovery too.

Norm,

Glad to hear it about you and your wife.

Most of the time i leave the cooking to my wife, but i clean up. I've cleaned the sprinform many of times.

Funny thing: sometimes while I'm talking to my wife i can see all the names here telling me what to say and do or not do. It helps.

Keep up the good work

m2L

I don't want to fall into the trap of "everything is great and now I can tell everyone else how to be like me."

My wife is OVER OM and wants to be with me, in our home and work on us. So how to do it???

This weekend my wife is talking hard about another baby. This would make our 3rd. I told her that I think we need to talk about a lot of other things first. I don't want her having another EA or A with a baby in the picture. So we need to get past that part. I don't want a rebound baby, even if it is mine.

We also need to cover the O&H issues. I have learned to talk very H about my feelings and I don't project any feeings on her or from her. Hers are hers. I feel like I need to show her how to do that with me.

My wife keeps lots of her feelings to herself and I told her that I don't know how she feels if she doesn't tell me. So she opened up some. She thinks things between us are much better and that she likes the changes I've made concerning our kids. Much better!!

The last point I made was that I want a good, if not great, marriage and I don't want to be just good room mates with kids.

So, how to move closer together and build on what has happened? We are going in the right direction and I don't want to stop.

thanks
M2L

I would say you should get her on board completely with the marriage builders program. Get her to read SAA, HNHN, etc., go to counseling and work out any last issues between the two of you, and maybe even get her to come check out these message boards with FWW in her signature (that's right, I gave her an F). Maybe I could use some perspective from her about my WW. As far as the baby talk, I would use the POJA to probably decide to put off the discussion for 6 months, and then bring it back up seriously. Good for you, M2L!

[color:"red"] this is critical
one usually can get by surviving infidelity without MC
but it is my strong belief based on
personal experience
and
observation of hundreds of marriage recoveries
that in order for the marriage to move forward in a way that does NOT drag the adultery along for the ride

I URGE you to call Harleys and to councel with them
and attend one of their seminars (if possible)

recovery is HARDER than stopping the affair

you may not believe me now
but I assure you
I am correct

GET HELP early in recovery
without waiting until too many recovery mistakes are made

it is time to start removing defenses
not creating new ones (which is the usual early recovery mis-step)

Pep [/color]

Yep..my vote, too, is for "COACHING" with Steve Harley.."He can help us with our marriage-building strategies"....even give him a call yourself if your FWW does not want to participate at first...

I would back off of encouraging her TO READ or to come to the WEBSITE...

Absolutely agree.

Wish we had had that opportunity when we went through it instead of stumbling through it as we did. But through perseverance together we have made it work.

It doesn't sound like she is really out of the WS woods yet, just changed targets. A vs. another baby. Call Jennifer C @ MB. She is great at working with the XwsW.

No more life changing decisions while someone is in a questionable recovery stage. To go from one extreme to the other c/b deadly to her. Remember the A was a symptom of the addiction that invaded her heart and mind.

L.

M2L sorry if i TJ here but what do you do when you live in another country where people dont really understand or apply MB principles? what do you do?

Thanks all,

I mean it. I have learned to listen to the pros.

We talked more about a baby and thought it best to wait 6 months then decide. Too big of a step.

My wife is on board with me and helping me now with my hurt from this. She HATES her fog talk and stops me if I bring it up. She wants to change all phone numbers just in case OM calls.

It is very nice to see her eyes agian. You know what I mean.

I don't want to bring her here right now. This is my place for now. She said to me the other day "isn't that guy you talked to on the phone good?" I said yes he can show new ways and ideas to help people like us, will you talk with him? She didn't rule it out like before so I think I can get her to do it.

My wife is very open and we are talking O&H about all things. She feels she F'd up big time and doesn't ever want to go there agian. She said that she can see now that when one person in a M is down then the other person needs to help them back up.

I'm talking Tuesday afternoon off for one last day of shopping and she is so happy that we will have time alone with no kids.

thank you all very much, you have been a marriage saver.

M2L

What makes you think that they understand or apply MB principles in this country? MB principles are universal. There are people on this board from all over the world, many in countries that value marriage even less than the US.

Most of the people I exposed to didn't see how that would help my situation. They didn't understand why I was trying to save my marriage. They thought it was over. You apply the same MB principles and taylor a plan for your situation.