Hello everybody,

My recovery with my FWW is going very well, better than I would have ever hoped for just a month ago. We still have a long way to go, as evidenced by the fact that I characterize this last week as a great week, yet it includes one punched hole in the wall and a separate bout of crying/depression on my part (which my W lovingly brought me back from which makes me feel even better about the M). Basically, the highs are higher and the lows are lower than the marriage we had before DDay.

Here's my question. We have family friends that we've known for a few years now. The couple has 3 young girls that are roughly the same age as our 2 young girls, and they all get along great. DW and I get along with the couple. We'll call them John and Jane. We often get together for dinners or take all 5 kids out together. The problem is that John and Jane are the product of an affair. Jane started an EA while she was pregnant with her second daughter. It turned PA sometime later. John is the OM. Jane divorced the BH. Jane and John are now married, live in a great house, and have added their own child (the 3rd daughter) to the mix. The BH has every other weekend visitation rights, so John, the OM, is basically now the father of all 3 girls. To John's credit, he seems to be a great father and husband, and I had no problem considering him my friend even though I knew of the origin of their relationship.

The difference now of course is that I have had my own gut-wrenching experience with infidelity. And when I think of John and Jane now, all I can think of is how much pain the BH went through. I have told my DW this, and she said that I should remember that the BH in that case is a "loser" and I'm not, so it's not the same. I told her that all I know is that right now I can't be friends with John now that I realize what it really means that he is an OM, and how much I despise that. I left it open that my feelings might change sometime in the future, but I'm not sure that they ever can.

What do you think? We don't have all that many friends, and John and Jane were probably our closest. Should we eliminate them from our lives just because they are the product of an affair? Also, I don't know if my W would ever acknowledge this, but I do wonder how much John and Jane's example influenced her own decision to have an A. I'm not BLAMING the A on them by any means, but it certainly doesn't make me feel like being friends with them.

Thanks for the advice,

NS

I wouldn't say that you would have to cut off all contact with them, but I wouldn't let my W hang out with Jane by herself. I wouldn't get too close to Jane either. At least John, while he was the OM, was never the WH, so I think that he is less likely to fool around with your wife. I would just keep a safe enough distance from them if I were you (not talk to them about your marriage, only hang out with them as couples, etc).

The BH was a loser, so that made it okay to cheat and break up a family. Look for some different friends.

IMVHO, both John AND Jane are suspect as friends who possess little integrity or honor.

That comment your wife made regarding Jane's BH being a LOSER is an excuse and also a perception Jane has created where she is excusing and justifying her betrayal of her husband and marriage.

"IF" the BH was a loser, then why didn't Jane divorce him before and without committing adultery first?

IMO, people who commit adultery (cheat on their spouses) certainly aren't considered "WINNERS". Maybe folks, including your wife, should start looking at it that way instead.

Just something to think about.

Jo

You may also want to start thinking about what kind of "advice" good friend Jane will offer your wife if you and she ever experience problems.

Its obvious Jane believes if you're unhappy in your marriage its perfectly fine to find someone else while married in order to exit the marriage union. EVEN when one is pregnant from their spouse. <gag>

I haven't even covered what kind of influence this couple can have on your children in terms of commitment and integrity.

Find new friends.

Jo

She had an affair, and the BH is a "loser??" WOW! hello?

For me, I choose to have friends who have similar values as me. I choose friends whom I can RESPECT as decent human beings with character. I would not have a cheater for a friend because I value loyalty and honesty. Someone who demonstrates a lack of loyalty and honesty in their own life will certainly demonstrate that same lack in our friendship if given a chance.

If Jane could betray her own H, she could certainly betray you and your W if it were expediant and justify it by calling you "losers." That ain't friend material to me.

Believer said what I was thinking....

Pep

A very hard decision. But I think I would have to distance myself somewhat from them also. For all of the reasons stated above.....what kind of influence are they going to be on your wife and your children in the future.

Everyone makes mistakes, but is that what Jane going to say to your wife if your wife shares something about your m, does she have an attitude that she would encourage infidelity or has she came full circle and would she willingly admit that she was wrong to cheat on her husband and everyone loses when it comes to adultery regardless if the couple divorces....there are no winners....everyone loses, some people dont realize that and sadly they are probably the ones that lost the most.

Pray for them sincerely. Do not associate closely with them.

Their continued sin and rebellion colors every part of who they are now. Until/unless they repent, you do not want them to influence your family, especially your children, but you and your wife as well.

NotSleeping:

Interesting question.

Some lousy answers. Some even worse than my golf game.

Are they good friends? Then decide if you want to associate with them. Jane had an A with John, got D'ed, Got M'ed and on with life.

No, not MB Rules. But John and Jane didn't come here. You did. You are trying to protect your M. And you are in the right spot to do it.

And if suddenly, I had to cut out every person in my life who had been touched by infidelity in thier existing and or previous relationships, I would exclude a very large percentage of people in my life. Starting with my mother, my brother, 1/4 of my cousins, the family that has cared for my child for 12 years, and a big chunk of my clients.

Remember, 50% of all marriages end in divorce. And more than 60% of all marriages are tainted with infidelity.

So, you limit yourself to a very small pool of potential friends after a short period of time.

And many churches would be even more empty if this rule was enforced.

So let me ask you this: If John had said to you while you were having beers in your backyard, that he had been in the car at 17 during a liquor store robbery, (Nobody got hurt) and had been arrested, and given probation, would you ask the same question, Could I be his friend now? "Yes, because that was long ago, and not the person that I know now. He made a mistake back then."

We all have an incredible capacity to forgive. (Ask my BS how much you have to have!) If we could not forgive, then every little trespass would result in another destroyed relationship and a smaller pool to choose from in the future. Did John and Jane make a mistake? Yes. Both with thier first relationships and Marriage partners. But that water has passed under the bridge long before. Are they making mistakes now? Don't know. Do You?

Not to say that if John and Jane were inappropriate with the two of you, either in advice or thier behaviors, you shouldn't terminate the relationship. You were OK with the reason behind the forming of thier R before your wife went Wayward. And now that you have been touched by an A you may want to minimize your R with them You can. You are entitled to do so.

And I am not advocating the looking of the other way for an active A, by friends or relatives. Expose the A.

And I know that this may be a contrary view. So be it. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

LG - I guess that is why I have very few friends. The problem I have about the whole scenario is that the female infidel is apparently claiming that all is okay, afterall her husband was a LOSER.

I'm not a real strong person, and find that I need friends that will give me a hand up, not make excuses for extremely poor behavior.

And I don't care what a wonderful father that John is, having an affair with a pregnant woman is just too icky for me.

Maybe, just maybe, if folks would start taking a stand and voicing their disdain for adultery instead of accepting it as "something that just happens cuz the stats tell us its that way" (aka complacency) maybe then people wouldn't feel so very comfortable in committing adultery, as though it were a simple change in their dance partner.

Just a thought.

When you lay down with dogs you will get fleas. These friends are not the type that you would want to rely on for advice or support at a time of crisis in your M. They are also not the type of people that you would want to leave your spouse alone with the opposite sex friend.

It has nothing to do with the scripture that LG likes to throw around at times. It has everything to do with using common sense with picking the friends in your life. And since LG wants to quote scripture...each and everytime this affair couple lays together they are committing adultery. That is straight from scripture.

Cutting off everyone in our lives that has been touched by an affair would be silly... since that would mean to also cut off the BS. But cutting the friends that happen to be in an affair marriage seems like a good idea. This is something they should both be ashamed of and yet somehow the friends in their lives know about it.
And for this FWW to call any BS a loser makes me feel that she still doesn't get it. Like he had it coming! If I were Notsleeping... I would be very worried that my FWW hasn't gotten her head out of her [censored] yet.

John and Jane ARE in an active affair LG. I also wold look for new friends. I would not count among my friends adulterors either. I believe in forgiveness but I also believe in repentance and I see none of that here.

What exactly is your criteria LG? Is it OK because they got married? Produced a child? The passage of 10 years? That's all a great comfort to the many BS's here on this site who believe affairs always end and are actively trying to break up affairs.

Until Jane is unhappy AGAIN and follows her MO of relying on adultery as a escape route to exit her marriage instead of working on it and her issues, or divorcing BEFORE she gets involved.

And who ultimately pays, LG? Mostly the children, but everyone else involved does too.

NS,

I think you've received some wonderful input from others regarding this situation.

To me, it's a matter of priorities. John and Jane may have kids the same ages as your children, but do they hold values similar to yours and your W's?

My dad always uses this example:

My parents dated in high school. They had many couple friends from their younger days who also ended up getting married around the same time frame.

Some of these friends chose not to let go of the lifestyle they had from high school. They continued to party, even after they had children. My parents went a different direction and made marriage and family values a priority. They joined a marriage group called Marriage Encounter and formed friendships within that social circle and those were the couples they chose to spend time with. They never completely cut off contact with the couples who led a different lifestyle, but they were no longer friends they chose to spend a great deal of their time with, as they had different priorities and values.

Every single couple from their high school group who chose the latter path is now divorced.

The friends from their marriage group are all still married and I don't believe that is a coincidence.

My parents have been friends with these couples for over 20 years now. I've observed with admiration the way this group of friends has stood by each other - celebrating in joy at the birth of each grandchild and support and advice while they make decisions about placing their own parents in nursing homes or traveling out of town to offer comfort and assistance to each other at times of loss.

Don't get me wrong, they still have fun together, but fun and what feels good at the time is not what they place as their HIGHEST value.

Just something to consider.

(OMG...please don't tell my dad I listen to him and am actually REPEATING and QUOTING his advice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />)

I think the advice has all really been wise from a number perspectives.
As a former WS I feel perhaps the important thing here is exactly how you feel about it AND the attitude of the other couple to their previous actions.
Have they learned? Do they feel remorse?

You see while there are many reasons while one may cheat, there are NO excuses. It doesn't matter even if the ex wanted out as well .. wrong is still simply wrong.

Now if they say they regret their previous actions, perhaps you could put the friendship on hold until you feel comfortable again with them. But if not, well maybe its time to consider finding friends from another area or social group/church etc.

I have to wonder, did either of them know of your wifes affair and if so what did they advise? Perhaps thats the litmus test.

NS,

Your radar is on high alert for good reason regarding continuing your friendship with John and Jane.

Listen to it.

Aussieswife, that's a very good question. As far as I know, there is only one friend who my WW told during the A. I will be forever grateful to this friend and her H who counseled my W to immediately end the A, confess everything to me, and ask for my forgiveness. Of course, that's not how DDay eventually happened, but I will still forever appreciate that advice. It turns out that the friend was dealing with a BH at the time (an online EA), so as couples we have begun emailing all 4 of us occasionally with updates and for support.

If I found out that Jane or John knew and didn't counsel my WW to end the relationship, that would definitely be the end of the friendship, if it isn't over already.

NS

I think the day to day banter can be more destructive. And women are especially guilty. When men talk, they may advise each other to "kick her to the curb", but tend to stay out of others' business.

Women, on the other hand, seem to love to pick at each other's relationships, and add fuel to the fire.

I have been guilty of it, and even in my women's Bible study group, we catch ourselves doing it. In an affair case, you would give the right advice, but in the day to day stuff, we tend to support each other's outrages. This can be like chipping away at the foundation of a marriage, way before it is really in trouble.

Don't know if you can understand what I mean, but I believe a lot of the women here know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Well I don't know about the women here believer but I understand perfectly well what you mean.

I have certain friends that were not a friend of the marriage even before D-day. Talking trash about a mate is not productive. It would have been much better if they had insisted that I get counseling.

I've noticed men are a bit more careful. I work with all men, and remember one man saying something disparaging about the other guys wife. He was immediately advised never to speak about the wife again. And it was at lunch, with lots of witnesses. I had a lot of respect for him after that. And frankly, it was all said jokingly.

I guess it is just the difference in men and women.

For example, (while NotSleeping is sleeping), one of the big complaints my WH had in our marriage is that I never seemed to initiate anything - where to eat, what to do, planning for vacations, etc. Mostly I'm a content person, and just enjoyed spending time with him, no matter what.

But I decided to work on being more outspoken, since it seemed to bother him. So the Mother's Day before D-day, I told him I wanted to go for fish-and-chips (you in the far south have some other name for them) at the harbor.

As we were walking to the fish stand, WH told me he would rather go to a Mexican restaurant. We did, and that was that. I was a bit disppointed and mentioned it to a friend.

She told me that my WH was insensitive, it was Mother's Day, he always got his way, and then had the nerve to complain that I never made plans. She went on to tell me that she didn't know why I stayed married, everything was HIM, HIM, HIM. Then the kids came up - she said I was the only mother his 6 kids knew, how DARE he not honor a Mother's Day wish?

It would have been more helpful for her to suggest counseling, noting that there were some obvious things the two of us needed to work on.

NotSleeping, I read this recently. You can't be a conscious person and unethical at the same time. I hated being around people in As pre-A. Now, with everything I have unfortunately learned, I definitely don't want to hang out with them. There is a difference being with someone who had an A, has learned from it, and would never do it again. This couple had an A and ended up together. I'm not even trying to condemn them here. If it were me I just would have nothing to talk about with them.

And the "loser" comment. That shows me a WW that has learned nothing. She boinks an OM while pregnant, and the OM boinks a pregnant MM, and who are the "losers" here? Give me a friggin break! It's easy to blame the loser BH to justify your unsavory actions. Is that who you want to hang out with Conscious people don't make those kind of really bad choices. And let's face it, anyone who has been Med for a while can each take a turn at being a loser in the M. It takes a while to grow up and be healthy. So I say dump the loser couple, especially if they show no remorse for their actions. Why is it even common knowledge about their history?

:::brief threadjack:::

CV...Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family! I've been lurking and posting to "new arrivals" over here in GQII lately and sort of lost track of the "Recovery" forum. Here's hoping my bestest MB buddy is doing well!!

SD

:::end threadjack:::

Thanks for your input everybody. I do think I am going to keep my distance from this couple, and I will try to convince my DW of the same. She is early enough in the recovery process that she may not see why this is the right choice, and she will probably think I am overreacting, but I can't pretend to be OK with something when I'm not, especially something that I feel could be harmful to our own marriage and recovery.

I've seen a few people wonder why I even know of the origin of John and Jane's relationship. They told us. In fact, I think it was the first time we all went out as couples. The typical "how did you meet?" question came up and they told us. They seemed a little hesitant, but they certainly weren't ashamed enough to make up some other story. So they are obviously comfortable enough with adultery to tell their affair story to people they just met.

One thing I do wonder is how their M will do in the long run. They've only been together now a few years. The wisdom stated here is that affair relationships eventually break up (even if they marry) when they are exposed to reality. Well, there's no reality like that of marriage, mixed families, and raising infants. I hope they do make it, despite the A, because another D would be devastating to the children. But I wonder when they hit the inevitable hard times in their M if John will start to wonder, "what if she cheats on me?" Living with that doubt is the price he'll have to pay I guess.

NS

Well, and this has to be a huge problem in affair marriages. When you marry someone who does not believe in fidelity and faithfulness; does not respect marriage vows, one has to EXPECT infidelity. That is a pretty shaky foundation!

The quotes I've seen are they have around a 3% chance of making it. That's another reason I would stay away. They deal with problems by dumping the loser and latching onto a married person. Not very healthy friends for you or your wife.

This only you can answer.

If I had to chose my friends based on perfect morality and exactly the same as mine, I'd have no friends.

DF, no one has perfect moral adherence, but not everyone is actively engaged in adultery and actively condoning wrongdoing. I choose my friends carefully and I do not hang out with dopers, thieves, rapists, murderers or adulterers or anyone else who actively CONDONES wrongdoing. But.......that's just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who's to say the adulterers condone their own actions to friends? I'd think it would be the opposite as most are ashamed anyway. I was more or less making light of the situation.

If we choose friends based on perfection, we would not have any! LOL.

ML: Did JulieW's H stay in AA? I bumped the thread. Did I read into your posts correctly that you 2 know each other? I'm interested if AA took.

No one is perfect (morality included). By design we're all fallable human beings. I don't expect my friends to be anything but good honest fallable human beings. That includes them sharing my beliefs that adultery is wrong where one should be genuinely remorseful, repent and learn if they participate in it.

From the limited info NS has offered, the couple under discussion (John & Jane) don't appear to be remorseful nor have they repented. But instead perpetuate their justifictations for cheating using "BH was a Loser" so their union must be different/special from any other cheaters.

Jo

But they do CONDONE their actions. Not only that, but they are still together. They never STOPPED doing it, in other words.


Of course not, but there is a huge difference between inperfect and being corrupt.


I haven't heard a peep. I suspect that her husband didn't "take" and that might explain the silence. Hoping I am wrong...

Brief threadjack to my MB buddy SD.

"Here's hoping my bestest MB buddy is doing well!!"

Of course the feelings are quite mutual! I've been thinking about you and wondering how you're doing. I hang out mostly on Recovery. I guess we all have to find the place where we maybe can give back some of what we got here on MB. After seeing your "hello" message to me yesterday SD I found myself smiling. You have to admit we had some excellent laughs directed at our fogged out WSs. If you think it would fit for this new group on GQ11, some day maybe you could pull out that recovery game thread I started about a month after my d-day. That thread was pretty hilarious. I still remember some of what you wrote. Of course if I read it now I might get depressed. AN began a thread called "CV55" on recovery. If you get a chance stop in and give an update on how you're doing, OK? I'll be looking for you!

NS wrote:

"Also, I don't know if my W would ever acknowledge this, but I do wonder how much John and Jane's example influenced her own decision to have an A. I'm not BLAMING the A on them by any means, but it certainly doesn't make me feel like being friends with them."

In the book "After the Affair" the author has a chapter that discusses all the factors that make an M vulnerable to infidelity. One of those factors are being around friends and family who are involved in As, especially when it is accepted behavior. I don't have one doubt that this is correct. In my H's family both his S and B left their BSs for the OPs, which they both eventually dumped. The OPs were accepted into the family very quickly. I know that this acceptance played a factor in my H's weakening of his own values. Every time people witness an A couple that appears happy it justifies adultery. All the Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's of the world put a pretty face on infidelity and help people believe that the whole soulmate crap trumps M vows.

As far as the comments here about being too "judgemental" about our "friends", just look at what NS wrote.

"I've seen a few people wonder why I even know of the origin of John and Jane's relationship. They told us. In fact, I think it was the first time we all went out as couples. The typical "how did you meet?" question came up and they told us. They seemed a little hesitant, but they certainly weren't ashamed enough to make up some other story. So they are obviously comfortable enough with adultery to tell their affair story to people they just met."

Give me another "F"ing break! Not only was this couple not ashamed to tell their affair story to people they "just met", they also revealed that they were screwing each other while she was pregnant with her H's baby. That is a true love story! Makes me want to gag! These are 2 people that don't seem to feel remorse, shame, nada. I would prefer to lessen my friend pool then hang out with them, cause seriously, I'll say it again. What would we talk about?

Would you want your kids hanging around with other kids that do drugs, cut school, or are deadbeats???

Birds of a feather flock together. Please think carefully if this couple is trustworthy.


kd's heartbreak

I vote no.

Post deleted by GBH

I see, so every relationship should be maintained with anyone, no matter how pernicious [robbers, rapists, child molestors], just so the children can play with their children? Surely, you must be on some bad crack if you believe that. How do you imagine children will learn right from wrong if you don't TEACH them? By osmosis? What you suggest is a form of PARENTAL NEGLECT and dereliction of duty.

Doesnt' that send a terrible message to the children when the parents use no judgement or discretion in choosing their friends? The parents can't exactly teach their children to choose their friends WISELY if they don't practice that principle in their own lives, can they?

Boy you're quick ML... I thought better of that after I posted and tried to delete but you beat me to it.

Truth is, none of us here know all that much about this couple, just what NS posted. And clearly it's NS's decision as to whethr his kids hang out with J&J's kids. What was eating at me, though, was the continued blanket chastising that people here automatically cast upon anyone who has made the horrendous choise of having an A.

I have to give J&J a wee bit of credit for acutally being HONEST about how they met. I agree that it's not the way to start a relationship, but they practiced RH, right?

I'd be willing to bet that more than a few of us are friends with couples whose relationships may have started as As and we don't even know it. Think about it -- do you seriously think that every one your married friends was totally single (we're talking not married and not dating anyone) when they met their current spouse? I'd say the odds are pretty slim. Not married perhaps, but they may have been "cheating" on a BF/GF when they first starting seeing their current spouse.

About the kids: Do you seriously forbid your kids from being friends with another kid because you don't like something about one of the kid's parents? While I was growing up, one of my friends had an abusive dad. I didn't know it at the time, but I remember she liked to hang out with me and my family, partly because my dad was "so nice" (her words). Years later I learned that her father was abusive to her and her mom (who finally divorced him - no A - and yes, he was a loser!). I can't imagine how my friend might have turned out if all her friends parents forbade her from being friends with their kids, and the only adult male in her life was her abusive father.

Or how about a child with parents of meager means? Or a different religious or ethnic background? Maybe one of the parents is an artist and you think all artists are flakes? You don't want to teach your kids about acceptance and diversity? Oh yeah, I keep forgetting, you're all Christians -- and I know how much some Christians abhor diversity.

I can understand wanting to shield children from dangers like drug dealers or sexual preditors, but if you shield them from everything a clone of their own family unit by cocooning them away in some Christian school and never exposing them to anything except things which are a carbon copy of home, they're gonna be in for a rude awakening once they get out into the real world.

We don't need to know any more than what he presented. All he needs to know is that they promote affairs and don't possess traits that most folks would want in a friend. That says it all.

And I don't know if I would forbid my kids from seeing his kids. That was not the issue. Maybe not, but if he ends his relationship with this couple, it may not be convenient to continue. Different issue entirely. The issue was associating with these people as a family.


Being "honest" about wrongdoing does not right that wrong, it often just means the person has no shame. That should not impress you.


It is a parents JOB to teach children to judge right from wrong. Children have to be taught what constitutes a person of CHARACTER and choose their friends accordingly. This is WHAT ADULTS do in real life, so I have no idea what you mean when you say they will "be in for a rude awakening" when they grow up. Do you imagine that exposing them to crack wh*res and drug dealers will somehow help their maturity? sheesh They will be PREPARED for adult life if they are taught how to choose friends WISELY and avoid nefarious people. That is a PARENTAL obligation. One does not PREPARE children for life by allowing them to hang out with crack wh*res and drug dealers and other bad influences. Bad influences cause great harm to children.

As much as you abhor Christians? Your religious bigotry is coming through, GBH. Perhaps you should actually PRACTICE some of that "acceptance and diversity" you blather about. Or does that not apply to Christians? Your intolerance and hatred of Christians is quite scary.

NS,

This is an excellent topic. My FWH two older sister's had affairs with MM. I found out during my FWH's last A that he overheard his 3 older sisters speaking when he was around 13/14 yrs old and they were discussing that MIL had an A. FWH also brought out that his dad woke him up when he was about 5 yrs old and held him crying (while drunk) saying no matter what anybody says, you are my son and don't believe them. He was confused but this obviously made a huge impression on him. When he heard his sister's speak, he put things together and wondered if FIL was his biological dad. FIL passed on from Alzheimers when FWH was 28, FIL was 68.

Thus, FWH FOO made it seem acceptable to him, even though he knew it was wrong, to have A's. Also, 3 of his four sisters have been divorced, one was D'd twice, M'd 3 times. FWH also recently admitted to me that this lead him to think that M's were disposable and didn't last.

On my side one of my older sister's won't admit to it, but it certainly appears that the break-up of her 1st M (25 yrs) is due to a A with her now 2nd H. FWH also uses this example of something he saw and saw our families slow acceptance of the 2nd M as rationalization for his A. (Eventually in his fantasy OW and him would get M'd, I don't really know how my family fits in as I'm sure they wouldn't have anything to do with him if he was an Ex!).

So while I can't change the fact that one of the situations above is my sister, I can say that since this happened about 7 years ago, she has been re-married 5 years, she has distanced herself from the family. And this second marriage has been rocky from the start, no one would be surprised if it ended. I also can't change my in-laws, although I don't have to hang with them. My MIL is 77 and I'm certainly not going to pass judgement on her and I do t encourage our 3 sons to visit with her. That being said, the lack of moral compass and values on my FWH side bothers me, the A's aren't the only outcome of this lack. I didn't really know his family prior to getting M'd, FWH kept it that way on purpose he admits. Thus, I assumed it was a similar background to mine, we were both from Catholic middle-class families. Never assume!

I couldn't knowingly be friends with two people who had an A, this stuff is so hurtful that I wouldn't have any respect for them. You can't choose your family but you can choose your friends.

ML... I can't think of ANYONE who twists my words more than you do.


The part of my post that you refused to acknowledge was where I said "I can understand wanting to shield children from dangers like drug dealers or sexual preditors." You even included it in the quote but won't give me credit for that caveat!!! Of course no rational parent would want to expose kids to crack ****** and drug dealers. But there's a big difference between crack ******/drug dealers and people who once made a poor choice in life but may have reformed themselves into a life of greater integrity -- not that J&J fall into that category as we have yet to see any remorse shown -- but it is possible to recover from poor choices and go on to live a moral life. At least I think so; perhaps you disagree.


Where in my post did I say I hate/abhor Christians? Show a post from GBH where I come out and say that. For your benefit, I have bolded the modifier some that appears before "Christians" in that post to prove I was not referring to ALL people of that religion. I have friends and relatives who are Christian and I love them all. But they do not claim to have a monopoly on morality as certain Christians here have. They also have considerable tolerance for people of different backgrounds.

If you don't think there are Christians out there practicing hate and intolerance, then I suggest your look up Westboro Baptist Chruch On Google or in Wikipedia. Those people call themselves Christians. My own home state has a Christian Civic League that is very active politically and wishes to limit the basic human rights of people who do not embrace the league's own ideals. Those are just two examples of how some Christians practice hatred and intolerance.

I am using the principles that you are PROPOSING here, GBH, but you don't seem to understand that. A bad influence is a bad influence. If you throw out standards, you must throw them ALL out. And a GOOD PARENT does not expose his children to bad influences. He protects him from them and teaches him to AVOID THEM. That is not putting him in a "cocoon," that is being a RESPONSIBLE PARENT. That is something that adults practice in their OWN LIVES.


This is not the issue.


GBH, yet you don't practice tolerance yourself. Strangely, you demand it of others. And apparently believe that you have the "morality" necessary to judge them. Where is your "tolerance" for "certain" Christians who "claim to have a monopoly on morality?" How come YOU can practice this and they can't?

If you are going to blather on about "tolerance," "acceptance and diversity" then you need to PRACTICE THAT yourself if you want to be taken seriously. Where is the ACCEPTANCE and diversity of those folks, huh? Practice what ya preach, GBH, lest you just end up looking like a hypocrite. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How is this helping Notsleeping???

GBH and ML, many people look to you two for wisdom to help them make it through a day. You two have lots to give and I for one am very glad you both are still around. You help me, pushed me and held my hand when needed so please stop this - you are both better than this.

M2L

M2L, I beg your pardon?

M2L, there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning GBH's sarcastic challenge to others on this thread. If she is going to challenge others on this forum, as she did, she should be prepared to defend those remarks. And rather than being "unhelpful," it is very helpful for others to see her challenge questioned. There is nothing less than "better" about that. This is how people LEARN.

In order to not expose your children to any bad influences, ML, you'd basically have to keep them at home and watch over them 24/7/365. Surely you don't expect to do that.

Bad influences are everywhere - at school, at the mall, at sporting events, at community "teen centers" established to give kids a "good" place to hang out instead of the streets. Heck, I bet there are even bad influences at church - we all know of affairs that happen between church members, right?

The point I've been trying to make is that kids need to know how to identify a bad influence and respond appropriately. If they're never exposed, they might not know how to respond. Obviously, if there are real grave dangers like a crack dealer or pedophile around, then you try to keep their distance -- you don't even want them exposed to that.

But regarding NS's dilemma, I don't necessarily put all the people who once had affairs (whether they're J&J or anyone else) in the same category as a crack ****** or drug dealer. I'm not saying the A was right because it clearly was not. But like an earlier poster said, if we were to cut off contact with anyone who's had an A, then a lot of us would have a lot fewer friends, doncha think?

Regardless of the outcome of this, I think that NS might be able to turn this into an opportunity to teach his children right from wrong when it comes to marriage relationships. Just like my parents gave me an opportunity to learn right from wrong by sending me to public school. Through public school, I was exposed to a wide range of students and activities -- those activities included everything from wholesome stuff like drama club and band (school sanctioned). But through friends met at school, I was also exposed to not-so-wholesome stuff like beer drinking and pot smoking. Amazingly enough, I think I turned out okay.

I don't think NS's decision is as cut and dried as you do. But like I said, regardless, he might be able to turn it into an opportunity to teach his kids something, and that would be a good thing.

I should probably stay out of this discussion, but it's "hit home" on a couple of points, and I feel I need 2 speak my mind.

I'm an "atheologist": Not an atheist, because I'm very spiri2al, but definitely not a supporter of organized religion. That's not a slight against others who are. I'm just not. Some of my best friends are Christians/Jews/Budhists/Church of the Subgenious... Well, never mind...

Personally, I'd have 2 distance myself from "friends" in an A marriage. But I've had a closer-2-home experience with this kind of thing that leaves me, still, somewhat confused.

Up until a 2ple years ago, I coached with an MB-trained marriage coach, specializing in infidelity recovery, whom I learned during the coaching was married 2 their former A-partner, who cheated on them for the 2nd time during their A-marriage. I stopped coaching with this person a 2ple months later.

Don't get me wrong. This person has some amazing qualities, and some hard-won insight. But I found myself wondering a 2ple of things:
*number A: What business do I have knowing that kind of intimate detail of my coach's personal life?
*letter 2: Why is this person a coach for people suffering from infidelity?

I haven't been able 2 satisfactorily answer my own 2uestions, except 2 stop coaching. But I stopped coaching as much (probably more) because it was a waste of my time and money 2 unilaterally try 2 save my marriage, than because I had "issues" with my coach's moral choices.

Fast-forward 2 2day:
*We're in some sort of recovery, dealing with a preposterous lawsuit from my SIL, which has both rallied us 2 support one another, and threatened 2 split us apart (the insanity of the whole si2ation I won't go in2 here, but it's at least AS CRAZY as my experience dealing with my W's A was).

*I'm 53 years old, about 2 2rn 54. I'll be dead soon enough.

LOVE IS A CHOICE, it's NOT a FEELING.

We should all make our choices based in our sense of morality - from the head, not the heart (though that cliche gives undue credit 2 feelings, and I believe that the heart can speak from a foundation of morality, which is choice-based).

I chose not 2 continue coaching with the A-marriage coach. I wish them well, I just don't have much time left in my life 2 want 2 spend it working with someone of that moral background. If I were in an A-marriage, I certainly wouldn't advise others on surviving infidelity (what could I advise, after all - tolerance??), and I would probably "require" myself 2 end the A-marriage as a matter of principle.

But I would likely never enter in2 an A-marriage because of my beliefs around morality.

After all, I'm almost 54, and I'll be dead soon.

-ol' 2long

You are doing a better job at making ML's point than your own. Your child could not identify this bad influenece if it was befriended by his parents. The way the child is able to learn the moral lesson in this is by his parents setting the example so that he can recognize and act accordingly when the time comes.

Also... no one here has said anything about a remorseful person that has had an A. There is no reason to keep those people out of our lives. Heck, i am friends with my ex-wife.... but be certain that I would NOT have befriended her and her new H if she married her A partner. That shows a lack of remorse... plus these people have no shame about their actions... they came right out and told their little.. "how we met" story. YOU, GBH have made this discussion about something it was not.

But, this doesn't mean that you PURPOSELY send your children into bad influences, thereby seeming to condone them. Sure, children will see bad influences, that is a FAR CRY from condoning them. A responsible parent PROTECTS their child from bad influences as much as possible. Doesn't mean that every bad influence can be avoided, but the parent has a moral obligation to TRY. Exposing children to bad influences is irresponsible, it does not make them stronger adults, but leaves them vulnerable.


Children do not have to go to a CRACK HOUSE and hang out with crack heads in order to know how to RESPOND. Just as I don't have to hang out with murderers in order to know how to handle that. The way you "respond" is to avoid them. Again, being exposed to bad influences does not HELP a child, but harms them.


I would hope so. Because that is certainly not the caliber of person I would have for a "friend." I have cut off all contact with friends/acquaintences who are actively carrying on affairs and/or CONDONE affairs. And I seriously question the judgment of those who DON'T. I think they are WORSE than crackheads. Crackheads usually only harm themselves, adulterers always harm others.

On the other hand, I proudly count as my friends, those who had an affair and CHANGED THEIR LIFE and made amends to their victims. Those are honorable people of character who had the courage and honor to do the right thing. But, I will not have anything to do my friend, Theresa, who is actively destroying her marriage and her family with her sleazy, filthy affair. She is not friend material as long as she engages in destructive, cruel behavior.


Oh, I don't think it's a complicated situation at all if you just apply a little simple common sense to it. It all comes down to using some common sense and good judgment when choosing our friends. If we want friends who are loyal, trustworthy and decent, we should make sure they practice those principles in their own lives. If they don't, then they are not friend material. This is not rocket science.

Threadjack to 2Long: I have missed you, my friend! Excellent post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Which begs the question, just how many children have you raised?

Wow...for a change, it's not me creating a ruckus here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

**snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hehehe, thought you'd get a kick out of that, ML. This is one of those situations where I'm just glad I'm not IN that boat.

Mel:

About this:

We don't need to know any more than what he presented. All he needs to know is that they promote affairs and don't possess traits that most folks would want in a friend. That says it all.


DOES IT?

Jane says her Ex-H is a "Loser"

We do not know anything else about Ex-H. But according to the above, it would be ok to hang out with the "Loser" but not Jane. The "Loser" could have been lazy, spent her money, drank all night long and been abusive, etc., but at least he DIDN"T SLEEP AROUND!

Jane may be justifiying her actions. Jane may be scum of the earth. As a Wayward, how could they ever be thought of as anything else?

Jane could have waited for M to end before finding John. Sometimes things get out of order. But Jane got off the fence quickly it sounds like.

Like I said before, not MB rules. But Jane and Ex-H didn't come here. NotSleeping did, and asked a good question.

Most of the betrayed spouses around here are good folks stuck with lousy Waywards. Some Waywards get it, some never do. But not all Betrayed Spouses are a pure as the driven snow. And some Wayward, although wrong, just want an out of a bad situation. Yes, us WW may be hard-wired to take the easy way out, thus it is a defect. But for some, we earn the F. And our Betrayed Spouses change a little too.

And MEDC:

Your line to me:

It has nothing to do with the scripture that LG likes to throw around at times.

The only thing remotely scripture I used was about casting stones. And outside of that, scripture is rather foreign to me.

Another thing Mel:

Because that is certainly not the caliber of person I would have for a "friend." I have cut off all contact with friends/acquaintences who are actively carrying on affairs and/or CONDONE affairs. And I seriously question the judgment of those who DON'T. I think they are WORSE than crackheads. Crackheads usually only harm themselves, adulterers always harm others.

On the other hand, I proudly count as my friends, those who had an affair and CHANGED THEIR LIFE and made amends to their victims. Those are honorable people of character who had the courage and honor to do the right thing.

I think this statement sums it all up. We accept them for what they do. Good or bad. We throw the bad out of our life and make the good comfortable.

Just my lousy .02 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

BTW: I am not picking on your MEL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Jane could have waited for M to end before finding John. Sometimes things get out of order. But Jane got off the fence quickly it sounds like."

You got that right LG. Jane got off the fence so quickly that John was F'ing her while she was carrying her husband's child.

Repentant FWS = Friend Material

Non-repentant WS = Not Friend Material

Ed Zachery!

I can imagine both Jane and John think to themselves:

"John saved poor preggers Jane (and her unborn baby) from her *loser BH*"

... and so the denial that THEY themselves are immoral and cheaters continues.

Resilient - You and I think alike.

So, here is a quick recap. Jane and her husband were married and had 1 child. Her husband was a HUGE loser. We all can agree on that. Jane didn't have too many choices. Facing the marriage problems was out. Divorce was out. Refusing sex with the loser was out. And for some reason, she was unable to use birth control (or maybe it didn't work, as she probably told John)

So, ooops, she is preggars. And during that 9 month period, she decided to boink John. No problem there - she didn't need birth control any more.

And they all lived happily every after.

LG, this is all IRRELEVANT. We do not NEED to know anything about the XH to know that Jane is an adulterer who feels no remorse for her adultery. WE judge our friends for THEIR OWN behavior, not anyone elses.

So, it doesn't matter if her XBH was SATAN himself, nothing will erase the factoid that Jane is an adulteress who promotes adultery. NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR. The crimes, real or imagined, of the XH are completely and totally IRRELEVANT to Jane's faithless behavior.

I have to say, the way this (bolded above) is worded it says to me this poster believes the order in which J & J did things was trivial because its the results that matter -- that being Jane and John are together (aka meant to be).

Am I reading or translating this wrong? I hope so.

Jo

With your line of thinking, IMHO...you have not yet earned the F yet. You give the "it's wrong... but" attitude.




Yeah, things get out of order... that's a nice way for a "former" wayward to put it!



Then perhaps you would do well to not quote scripture at all... since the idea you tried to get across with your quote was in no way applicable to this situation.

The ending of your post sounds as though it was written by someone else. You actually sound reasonable. EVERYONE here agrees that remorseful FWS can be great friends.... again that is NOT what is being discussed. You have just manipulated this entire thread and really are arguing both sides of the issue... neither of them very well.

Just my 2 cents.

MEDC:

As for the scripture, I don't quote it. But, I think the line used has alot of applicability to the questions asked. At the time I first wrote it on this thread, there was alot of rightouesness (sp?) going on. So the point was to be careful how you critize somebody with out some or more of the facts. And there was a sizable dearth in facts, and some outright misrepresentation of some of them to that point.

As for the ending on my post, It was written by someone else. It was written by MelodyLane. And I have the greatest respect for her POV.

And I agree with that part of her post, that is why I reposted it. Because we have to accept people for thier actions are now and how they are presented to you. And if you go back to NotSleeping's original post, he and his WW thought that J&J were ok people. Now that his W had had an A, he didn't know if he wanted to associate with them.

We make choices in who we want to associate with. MEDC does, Mel does and even LG. The lenses we use to look at people are different for each of us. And some things will be deal killers for you and maybe not for me, and vice versa. For many betrayed spouses, knowing someone has been in an A may be a deal killer. That is acceptable to me. But if you get to know somebody and find them to be a friend, and after a reasonable amount of time (1 year, 2 years, 5?) you find out about something in thier past, (An A, etc) you are allowed to reevaluate your R with that person. But you may also have to re-evaluate some of your deal killers at that time won't you?

And for this:

With your line of thinking, IMHO...you have not yet earned the F yet. You give the "it's wrong... but" attitude.

I do not have that type of attitude. I will interfere in any Affair Relationship's I come across. Try to get them to see the light. And offer support where I think I can help around here. But, MEDC, I am tainted. Pretty hard for me to get to self-rightoues (sp?) about it, don'cha think?

And the only one who I feel can give me the "F" is my Betrayed spouse. When she pins it next to my scarlet letter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LG, we can only judge the facts as they are presented, and there are plenty enough here to make a judgement of the situation.

The Bible teaches that we are SUPPOSED to judge right from wrong, so your use of the scripture was clearly out of place. It is not "self righteous" to judge right from wrong, but a COMMANDMENT. Our prisons are full of people who can't judge right from wrong and that is exactly where they belong.

Another commandment is to not to associate with works of darkness, and that seems like some pretty simple, common sense if you ask me. As a decent human being, if I value traits like honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, and justice, then i would be a hypocrite if I chose friends who rejected those values. Not only that, but I wouldn't have much in common with them and certainly couldn't trust them.

In this case, the couple does not value faithfulness and fidelity and the sanctity of marriage, so they could hardly be expected to demonstrate those values in a friendship. NS would be foolhardy to continue to befriend them, and I think he is wise to have second thoughts.

LG, I know that you are fairly new here, but you do give serious pause to folks when you minimize a devastating affair as:
If that is not defining deviancy down, I don't know what is, LG. An affair is an affair, it is not a matter of unfortunate timing and I hope you will rethink that definition.

GBH, are you saying that people need to expose their children to bad influences so they build up some sort of immunity...like a flu shot???

Are you suggesting that this be done in order to teach children how to handle situations of bad influence?

What about teaching them to handle situations in which people are making poor choices through the parents example?

The child then learns that they have the right to decide what they are willing or unwilling to accept as part of their own life.



IMO, the point is to teach children - by example - how to respond to situations that don't line up with their own moral standards.

Yeah, I guess more or less that's what I'm thinking, but to clarify: I would not advocate deliberately putting someone in harm's way -- like sending them off to hang out with a drug dealer or pushing them into traffic. Rather, I guess my approach would be to not insulate someone to the point that they never see/experience anything that might be considered objectonable.

Funny you use the flu shot analogy. I know "germophobes" who walk around with Purell in their pockets and repeatedly disinfect everything within a 25 foot range of themselves. I, OTOH, am not a germophobe, and have never used Purell. Guess who gets sick more often? The people who shield their bodies from all things "bad" and never let their immune systems work. I never get sick.

I hate for people to think that I'm all for throwing an innocent child at a drug dealer! I'm not! But I am for children developing good moral standards through a combination of parental guidance and life experiences outside what their parents teach them.

I can understand NS's dilemma. If J&J are truly showing zero remorse (something none of us really know as we're only hearing snippets posted on the internet), I lean toward keeping at least some distance there, especially with regards to close personal opposite-sex relationships. I just feel badly if the kids are really close because kids should not be made to suffer as a result of adults' bad choices.

How many children have you raised, GBH?

I think this discussion has kind of veered off of NS's original concern, which is should he and his W dump this couple as friends to hang with. Personally I think the kids are innocent here. My son is friends with a boy whose parents are in a 2nd M. This couple may be a result of an A M. Who knows? I really like this kid and would never keep my son from him even if I knew his mom and stepdad are A partners. It's not his fault. OTOH, if I knew they were A partners I wouldn't want to hang out with them as friends.

I wonder sometimes if the tolerance level for being around active A partners is just different for a FWS and a BS. A FWS might abhor A behavior, and even try to help a couple going through infidelity. However, a BS's life is ripped apart in a totally different way. If my H's good friend engaged in an A he might hate it, but I'm not sure he would dump this friend. However, I would have no problem dumping a friend who is actively engaged in an A. This isn't a judgement, just an observation. I could be off the wall with this generalization.

CV55, and to your point, no one ever even SAID the children couldn't see his children, so this has never even been the issue. Just a distraction from the real issue.

I hope this isn't too much of a thread jack, I believe it is the same type of question the original poster began the thread w/.

Here's my situation...

My sister married a jerk, who cheated on her, and banked on her idea that marriage was forever regardless of what addictions he had or how unfaithful he was.

During their marriage, I tried to support my sister. I basically just tolerated her H....I was civil to him.

After 20+ years of marriage, four kids, and after she was diagnosed w/ cancer, he left her for a sleezy daughter of a minister.

Anyway, three years have passed. My XBIL is now married to the ho and living a good distance away.

But, every now and then there is a family get together. My sister has the "let's all get along attitude" where her XH is concerned. For the sake of the family, she has been more than civil w/ the two of them.

I OTOH don't want ANYTHING to do w/ either of them. And since I haven't made up my mind whether to be civil to them or otherwise, I have avoided the occasional family get together when they are going to be there.

I realize that I can't do this forever.

So since my sister has moved past this, should I as well? Should I be civil too?

I'm tearing up right now when I think of what pain and hurt my sister went through b/c of him.

Oh, and you're gonna LOVE THIS....

That creep sends me a Christmas newsletter every year, since he left my sister! In fact he sends one to ALL of our family...including our mother!!!

We all collectively throw it away w/o responding to it, but I wish could think of something that would burn him worse than being ignored.

Here's the newsletter he sent to me last year, (I didn't open this years letter...just threw it away)...

(He writes in third person.)

Dear Family and Friends,

It has been a year of many blessings for us. From our wedding in February and as we prepare to share Christmas together, we look back on the year and find much to be grateful for in this season of thanksgiving. After a small, but enchanted wedding, we enjoyed a fun and relaxing honeymoon at Disney World in Florida (a little tough coming back at -10 and the reality of every day life)! Walter continued to live and work in New Jersey until his transfer in October as he piled on the commuting miles.

Walter's(XBIL) job in Maine, though still with the IRS, was a step down from management and back into dealing with the taxpayer. He loves it! He's relaxed and he comes home stress free. Of course the commute down scenic route 3 verses the 8 lanes of traffic on those NJ highways helps!

Sue(OW) [b]m keeps the house running smoothly. Her homemade bread is a favorite that keeps everyone happy and she has been instrumental in merging Walter's styles and mannerisms into the existing culture in the household- no easy task! She continues working at her full time job with a social agency.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then he talks about his kids. And then continues...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It has been a year of many changes but we feel truly blessed for the good health we have and the gift of family and friends.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year![/b]

I would never condone an affair marriage. If your sister wants to go and offer her apparent support of his affair right in front of her children, that is her prerogative, but I would not do the same. This is how children get morally confused. When they see their grown ups advocating wrongdoing, they begin to doubt their own instincts of right and wrong. She is sending them the message that it is ok to grow up and have affairs.

Marsh wrote:

We all collectively throw it away w/o responding to it, but I wish could think of something that would burn him worse than being ignored.


Return to sender unopened. Nobody would mistake that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
M2L

First off, I don't know how many more Christmas letters you will get from the two of them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Their clock is most likely ticking down rapidly, despite the Cleaverish appearance they want to portray. Maybe there won't be a next year, if you're lucky.

If you're not, I would send it back to them unopened, marked "Return to Sender".

I do not mean this as any disrespect to your sister, who has suffered terribly at the hands of this man, but the fact that she can tolerate the two of them is probably not so much an indication of healing, as it is that she doesn't feel that she deserved any better.

Even for a true Christian, the proper response, IMO, to toxic people is to lift them daily before God in prayer, and do not allow them into your life. She can pray for them without lending their A support by her presence. That may be all you are able to do.

I have found that my tolerance for WS's has gone down pretty much to zero after what I went through. FWS's, different story. Several of my best friends are FWW's. I am proud to associate with them. But someone boldly flaunting their sin to the world is not someone I would want to associate with, at any cost.

I sympathize with your dilemma, but honestly I think you have a better perspective on this than your sister.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> m2l beat me, but that makes it official - 2 to 0!

I agree.

My sister is making a big mistake by choosing to "go along" w/ this...and her kids ARE morally confused b/c of her choice to "go along".

Is it ever OK to be rude, Mel?

That's more or less what I'm asking.

If I attend one of these family get togethers and he's there, I know he'll come over and make an introduction...is it OK to be rude? B/c THAT is what I'd really like to be.

How would you handle a situation like that?

~ Marsh

We have bets going that there won't be a newletter next year either.




I know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The fact that she even married him says she didn't think much of herself to begin w/. (she was 17, though)

So sad.

~ Marsh

Wow, Neak is so very right. She probably believes she is being somehow virtuous by being morally neutral. But that is not virtuous or emotionally "healthy;" rather a sign of moral bankruptcy at worst, moral cowardice at best.

John the Baptist did not get his head cut off for being morally neutral - he got it removed for being virtuous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Herod and Herodias probably thought he was rude.)

What I am talking about is teaching children how to respond when they DO see/experience something that they consider objectionable...and every individual makes that choice for their own life - what they want to allow/disallow into their lives and the lives of their children.


Okay. I did not assume that you were thinking that. Perhaps the boundary line of what you are willing to allow into your life or what a parent should allow into their child's life has a wider scope. You certainly have the right to choose that for yourself.



And how do you propose parents teach that? What choice should a child make, as they get older, when they ARE faced with a moral dilemna?



I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion. At first glance it could look as though the children were being deprived of something and perhaps they are, but to what gain?

Every choice has consequences. You named one consequence - the children might lose their friends (and that's assuming that they decided to cut off ALL contact with J & J).

If that decision or the decision to limit contact is the choice that they make, based on what is best for their marriage, what do the children stand to gain from that? It seems like a much bigger benefit to have parents who offer the example of standing firmly and exercising actions that support and uphold their values.

NS,

Only you know all the info regarding this couple and their state of "remorse" or lack thereof...

But here is an undeniable truth:
Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another.

Surround yourself with people who have the same goals/values/principles as you do. If your gut is saying no, I would go with that. God is in the "still small voice".

Respectfully, IHC

hmmmmmm

another marraige between affair partners that seems to be successful

i wonder if there are lots more than the percentages show

Please define "successful", Eav?

so far the marriage has not broken up and i didn't read that there were problems between the H and W

Actually I didn't find out our neighbours and best friends were adulterors until he reverted to form and had an affair with my wife. The friendship of the children was one of the casualties of the affair.

Neak - could not have said this any better myself. Frankly I really love FWS's but just can't stomach WS's at all. Zero Tolerance.

Oh my goodness Neak - I had forgotten about that pair. WOW. You are so right.

Kind of a Kybosh on those who think affair marriages are actually real marriages biblically speaking!

I know. It strikes a cold knife of fear into the heart of any BS every time this comes up.