Hi everyone, I haven't posted in a while. So much has hapenned these last few weeks. I don't know where to start, I will copy and paste an email I sent another MB poster who tried to encourage me to post the latest. To make a long story short, BH says he had NO intentions in recovery all along, he said all he was doing was buying time so I would see OM for who he is so when he would finally ask for a D I wouldn't go running to OM.

He said he cannot get past everything and that he is afraid this will only all repeat itself in a few years and that right now he is still young enough to find someone else etc.

Also, part of his anger is that OM told EVERYONE where we used to work (BH worked there too) about the A and OC. Somehow this info came back to BH who is usually a very private person and he is furious about that. He knows why OM did this (looking for pitty, being the A-hole that he is etc) but he says he's just had enough with the entire thing.

When is upset he does bring up OM and how stupid I am for having chosen such a loser and if that's whta I want then go ahead be with "Mr. sensitive" (he is referring to OM).

What I find fascinating is that he finally got me to confess that OM is NOT an option anymore and that no matter what happens I will NOT be going back to him or even moving back where he lives (where all my friends and support is quite honestly) that I would stay here because I want him involved with our children. I guess I assumed he knew this but just a few days ago he got me to admit that while we were talking about it. So I admit that and then WHAM a few days later he wanst a divorce. He says he doesn't want me to think he is being cruel by lying all thse months making me think we were in recovery etc but he says that he didn't see any other way to do this.

The thing, is I am not sure there is anything I can do at this point. What if he is telling the truth and all he wants now is just to be happy? I have put him through so much, I wonder if I should just get out of the way and let him be happy with someone else some day?

Here is my email, tell me, at this point should I just not fight it and let it be?

______________________

Well, this is the explanation he gave me. We've been getting on each
>other's nerves lately and frankly, I was starting to wonder what was going
>to happen myself because whenever I brought up counseling again, he would
>say no way. Ok, that doesn't sound like someone who wants to have a
>better marriage right? so one day we were talking and I brought up his
>passive agressive attitudes as he had made several comments that let me
>wondering what he really thought about something (me going back to work).
>He got very defensive when I brought it up, and it actually reminded me of
>how he was before all this started when trying to discuss something with
>him was a no-win situation because he would use his passive agressive ways
>to anger me and ultimately make me regret bringing anything up.
>
> We basically argued and got no resolution that night just went to sleep
>angry and pretty much stayed that way since. He was "cordial" and didn't
>give me the complete silent treatment as he usually does, but he was
>withdrawn. I thought I just leave him alone. X-mas came and went and
>although he acted somewhat "normal" I knew something was on his mind.
>
> New Year's Eve right after we went to bed just out of the blue he was
>cuddling up to me (wanting sex) and I said (jokingly) did you read that
>article I gave you to read today? (it was an article about the chemistry of
>the relationship when you deal with passive agressive attitudes and how it
>described us to a T and what to do to try to improve things) and he said
>angrily "don't you think i've done enough", so it started. He said a
>bunch of things, like
>"oh you want me to be like OM? you want me to be Mr. sensitive? look at the
>piece of ****** he turned out to be" etc... other things along those lines,
>he was angry so I just sat there and listened to him. He then went ahead
>and said he was just waiting a few months to tell me this because he didn't
>want to do it right away for fear I go back to OM. Now he feels I won't do
>that or if I do, at least I would do it knowing very well the kind of
>person OM is etc. he said he never had any intentions to stay in the
>marriage, he can't do that after what i've done, he said he's met with his
>lawyer all the lawyer is waitng is for him to tell him to go ahead so he
>can file.
>
> I was rather shocked, I started to think back to all these months and
>putting things together. It all made sense, him not agreeing to
>counseling, him not wanting contact with OM about Emma, it even made sense
>now some of the comments he had made which sort of brought up this argument
>in the first place. He told me he wants to wait until I get a job to sell
>the house and we can split all our assets etc. We talked all night
>basically didn't sleep a wink. He told me what he wants as far as custody,
>visitation etc
>
> He said he feels we are just toxic for each other and that there is no
>way either of us are going to change and he wants to have what i had in the
>affair, someone to adore you no matter what you do or say and if things get
>too much he can just ended and not have to "work at it" as he would have to
>do with us.
>
> He has been rather pleasant since then, he said he was sad but that
>there was no other way.
>
> I didn't even know what to say, part of me thinks he is right. The way
>things are right now, it is not healthy for us, sooner or later one of us
>will just lose it. Would counseling help? of course it would, but he has
>lots of fears that what if this happens again, cut your losses now rather
>than later etc. He said he is certain this is going to happen again, he
>doesn't trust that things could ever improve.
>
> I am devastated and very scared to be honest, but certainly not
>surprised. I updated my resume yesterday, he helped me. I applied to a
>few positions already and will probably continue to do this until I find a
>job. Part of me things this is the best thing to do. Without counseling,
>we cannot do this ourselves, I know that very well. I guess I am also glad
>he did wait because I know in my heart now OM is not an option, I told him
>I won't move back to Georgia regardless because I don't want to be with OM.
> I don't even want OM finding out about the divorce, I want to keep him
>out of my life. BH will continue to be in OC's life.
>
> He is actually very pleasant right now, since we are going to continue
>to live together he said he won't make it unpleasant, he is going to just
>continue as "normal" until the summer or so when we can sell the house etc.
> We hugged last night and still were intimate, I guess take advantage
>while we are still living together... don't know seems rather odd but I
>went along. He kissed me as normal this mornign when he left for work and
>said "I love you" as he left. I guess just habits.
>
> So that's where we are... I am sorry this got long, I don't think he is
>having an affair, but I do think that if given the chance he would want to
>be. He says no way as it goes against his principles and that is not what
>he is going to do.
>

Wow! I think this is the first time I have heard of a false R on the part of the BS. {{McB}} big hugs for you sweetie. I think for the sake of the kids the two of you should get some counseling before heading for D.

I know it sounds very weird to hear it said straight up like this but...

I wouldn't sweat this too very much.

His timing is about right for some SERIOUS rage/withdrawl and having the threat of the OM removed by having YOUR perceptions of him alter probably tips the scales enough for him to be safe to allow himself to get into this headspace.

Most BSs go through this...I certainly did.

Remember back to your WS days. Your actions and your words were neither logical nor coherant were they? What you said you wanted and what you did didn't really add up did they? Crazy rationalizations? Check. Ridiculous hindsight schemes? Check.

A BS in this frame of mind is REALLY a WS you know. They may not have an OP [yet ..and that's a BIG possibility...revenge As are pukingly common] but their thought process is probably identical.

My suggestion is a good plan A followed if necessary by plan B.

McB,

I am sorry to hear this, but I think if you are calm, avoid any DJ's your H may well change his tune. He may not realize this but ANY relationship or marriage worth having and being invested in takes effort and sacrifice. OM did NOT have it as good as your H thinks.

You must realize that your H hearing that

Opened a lot of wounds. Be calm, have patience, and give this time. I have a feeling your H may well change his mind yet again. He won't admit it yet, but I think the man still loves you, he just doesn't know how to get around the events are keep any self-respect. He may even go through with the divorce and then realize he now can start over with you and have a relatively clean slate.

Why am I saying this? Well, perhaps I am an old romantic, but I think this is a face saving action. All of his old workmates now know he was a cuckold, and that you had another man's baby. He is having a hard time facing their knowledge of him as a cuckold and him accepting OM's baby.

Divorce may be the face saving way out and yes remarriage is a distinct possibility. So don't burn any bridges, actually no matter what don't do that. Your H needs to be in those kids lives as do you.

Time and patience McB, that is the watch word.

God Bless,

JL

Agree that this latest bit of being drug face first through the gravel of soul crushing public humiliation was a likely trigger.

But I also know BH is a very vindictive (spelling?) person and so most likely will either want to have an affair or at last make me feel like he is having one so I can feel half the pain he has felt.

Part of me wants to tell him "go out and date, find someone and then ask me for a D" because I know that part of what he wants is to have the opportunity I did. to have someone completely crazy about you who thinks you are god!

I took the news as good as I could have, I am going to re start IC to help me through this just in case, I did update my resume, started job searching. I am going to work on the "logistics" (finding an area where we can live, babysitters etc) as I am sure if the D does happen, all those are things that need to be take care of.

I am a bit concerned that it may take me a while to find a job but he says he is not in a rush, he says even if it takes months, no big deal. I told him it was easy for him to say that because he forgets that we can get on each other's nerves quite easily. But he says he will not do that, he doesn't want the children to know what is going on until it is all said and done etc.

I am an emotional wreck right now but I won't show him because I don't want him to do what he did back in August which was try to comfot me lying about R. Instead I figure I have to at least pretend I am strong, I can do this, and that no matter what happens, I am not changing my mind about stayign here away from OM.

I was putting the X-mas tree away and it was so hard to fight back the tears. Our last X-mas.

It seems rather cruel to have to live together while this goes on because I can't "move on" mentally or emotionally while still pretending we are a couple. He calls on the phone and says "I love you" as he is ready to hang up as if nothing had changed. I know it is a habit that is hard to break. He has nearly said it to work collegues by mistake so I know it isn't like he is doing it on purpose but still... weird situation.

At least now I know what I am dealing with. I had doubts all along, I didn't know HOW someone could just want to Recover after all but now it all makes more sense.

B

Becca - you have received some excellent advice here. It's just words.Plan A him McBecca. He won't be able to stop himself falling in love with you if you are meeting his EN's.

(((McBecca)))

Becca,
I'm so sad to hear your news, but am glad that you have trusted MB with your sitch... you are not dead in the marriage, as you think....
I believe that one of two things is happening...

ONE: Your BH is hitting his freak out stage, as Noodle pointed out

TWO: He's in an affair right now and has slipped into his fog, with rationalizations (easy for him to come by, given your marretal history)

I think that you may want to peel back your ears and develop curious eyes to see if there is evidence of an OW...

The signs are there.

Hate to say that what you describe sounds a lot like what my WS said to me.... and it sounds like what you once said to your H back when you were in the FOG....

HUGS TO YOU BECCA!

We are here to keep you on the beacon path!

Heartsore

Some BSs do. [just go out and HAVE the experience] The temptation is extremely strong. Not just for the "no fair" factor but also because the entire concept is so farging ALIEN that frankly...I think a lot of BSs want to know what all the hubbub was about. What was soooo great and compelling and important that it warranted permanent destruction in their lives?

The anger and vindictiveness is real..but I think it's mostly justification. I think the curiosity and ~possibilities~ that previously had been written off and dismissed are now back on the table for consideration.

Now think about that for a minute.

The option to have a justified OUT of your own choice [rather than something that's being done TO you against your will]...the possibility to date again...the fantasy of this can rival ANY affair fantasy..at the very least one in it's preliminary/comparable stages.

And what does any good wayward do at that time?

They greatly embellish the insurmountable problems in the marriage and the irrevokable damage done.

Right?
Right.

I'm telling you that having survived a spouses waywardness is *half* the battle...the other half is surviving your own.

I am very serious that this will be YOUR turn to have a nice front row seat for ~precisely~ the sort of uncertainty, heartbreak, betrayal and well..just PAIN that accompanies being married to a wayward spouse.

Read up on plan A.

He is at work or at home pretty much. The only chance is during his trips to Chicago but even then it is all coworkers and he is afraid to death of being taken the wrong way as a manager etc. He is very cautios with how he approaches women for fear of being suit by some lunatic!

He also says his morals and religion wouldn't let him do that. But of course, we know someone scorned is capable of anything.

How do I even start checking? Is there a way to check if there is a keylogger here on my PC? I am sure there is but he wouldn't make it so obvious, what else could it be called?

I noticed when he is checking my stuff because the PC runs slow and he says is a "virus" (yeah, I wasn't born yesterday either!) but now I've seen the pattern and how the PC runs during those times. I just haven't a clue how to find whatever software he may be using. As far as credit cards, he could very well pay with the cards for work or other cards he may have, could possibly have a mail box etc... remember he is a private person when things are going GOOD when things are bad it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack!!

I can't believe he would be that cruel to use someone just tohurt me, but then again, I Am slowly starting to learn that people are vicious no matter how much I hate to think they are. I don't have access to his email and couldn't even guess his passwords. His IT experience makes me a great candidate to do all kinds of things we "normal" people couldn't fathom!! for all I know he has another PC hidden somewhere in the office!

B

He is not an emotional/talkative person so it is hard to figure him out. OK sex as most guys he enjoys but that's about it. Oh and me NEVER arguing with him, letting him have his way ALWAYS. Those two things i know for sure, everything else I haven't a clue!

B

hunny ... I think this is a 'test' of your resolve

a God-smack

do NOT cut & run

be strong
be true
be the lighthouse

Pep

Becca,
Noodle is very smart and I recommend you follow her lead...

Just my 0.02 and I am not the smartest guy on the block but don't underestimate the male response with the stigma of the term "cuckold". There are some men who rather catch a deadly disease from their spouse than the label. Tough situation no doubt about it. I cannot imagine how I could handle it after taking some time to think on it. How does your ILs or other family members feel about this ordeal? Does he have any refuge from this humiliation?

and Pep gets a lot of questions right when she watches jeopardy and wheel of fortune (LOL!)

Both Pep and Noodle are steering you correctly. Be the lighthouse! PLAN A, just in time for the new year... READ PEP'S Carrot and Stick of Plan A.....

The link should be in Pep's signature... if not, I'm sure she'll send it to you...

HS

McB,

There is an old saying the the Hall of Fame Coach, John Madden , uses. You need to consider it.


Have you talked to him about his feelings concerning what OM did to HIM. Do you need a list to help you recall?

1. OM took his W.

2. OM impregnated his W.

3. OM then tells EVERYONE what he did and that there is an OC in the situation.

In short, OM has done about as much as one man could do to another. Isn't it time you thought just a bit about your H and this situation? I hate to sound harsh, but all of your posts are about what you are feeling, and what YOU fear, and what YOU feel you need to do to protect yourself.

Isn't it time to consider that your H is right now a little wacked out from all of this? Isn't time to cut him some slack and see if he is serious? A man dead set on divorce doesn't just say "well we'll do it in awhile". Nope a man deadset on a divorce is down visiting his lawyer and filing.

That has not happened and it may not happen IF you don't give up. The man is hurt, and further you have expressed that he is not the best at discussing his emotions or handling them.

McB, don't roll out the hoses just yet.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL, you just nailed it. In fact both of your posts did, but this last one is spot-on. I could not have said it better.
Yeah...I was a cuckolded husband too.

None of this is even a small surprise. MB... there are many here that gave what I considered at the time to be a false sense of hope. I don't know whether these changes in your H are forever or just a phase... but I would continue trying to work things out for a time...see if he comes around. Contrary to what you have been told... yes, no matter how well you do right now... no matter how much you plan A your H... he may NEVER fall back in love with you. It stings for sure... but your long range concerns need to be for your children... in this case, all of them. You guys had problems before your A and while I hope they go away.. the A and the child from the A are an added stress to your M.
I would suggest following some of the advice here....but getting your ducks in order for how to proceed if things do not work out. Specifically, if you have not had the OM sign over rights and documents that would deny you being able to collect child support from him, I would get the support information together sooner rather than later. You do not have to file it now... just be ready to go.
Aslo, if your H is NOT taking care of the new born as his own or makes ANY statements concerning not wanting anything to do with your daughter... figure out how you will handle that in the event of a divorce.
IMHO, based on your past posts, your M was on a fast track to divorce even before your affair. There is still time to fight for your M and I would advise you doing so... but have your back up plans in place just in case.
I wish you luck and am so sorry you are going through this right now. I truly hope your H comes around and continues on the path he bagan some months ago.

is why I think now that the best thing I can do for BH is to allow him to divorce me. I think asking him to stay married to me is just another blow to him. I would be asking him to accept what I did and in turn accept what OM did too. Does that make sense?

He seems very set on it only because he's already met with his attorney, he said everything is pretty much ready all he has to do is call the attorney to file. The only reason he hasn't done it is because I am not working right now but if I already had a job he would have filed i think.

He says it doesn't matter if it takes until summer for me to find something, so I guess that is his mental deadline because it also helps let our oldest DD finish school.

So what can I do now to show him that I don't want to give up but at the same time respect his wishes?

B

I am still undecided as to what to do there. BH says he still would want to be involved in DD's life but that she would become MY responsability 100%, he will see her etc but she won't be staying overnight with him like my other two.

So I have to decide what to do in that situation because frankly I am not sure having OM in her life would help at all. Sure, he can pay child support but that also gives him rights to her and considering what an A-hole he has been this far, who knows what kind of crap he will try to pull if he does get some rights. When we first talked about this he had some idea that he could get 50/50 custody and she would be with him for weeks or even months at a time!! I know that is insane and I don't think any judge would agree to do that to an infant! but then again, anything is possible.

So at some point I want to bring it up to BH again so he can clarify to what extend does he really want to be involved in DD's life. Eventually she won't be a baby and will wonder why her sisters can go to Daddy and she can't etc... I will wait a few weeks to bring it up to him again.

As far as OM, I don't even want him to find out that we are divorcing if it comes to that. I think it would give him just what he wants, the knowledge that even though he is not in my life, my marriage still ended. I think for some reason he may actually find satisfaction knowing that!! of course if I do take him to court to establish paternity he will find that out regardless.

I have to think about this yet. Considering he hasn't done anything to keep contact with OC I am not sure I even want him in her life.

B

wow...that's a tough spot.

I think you should tell him exactly what you said above....that you understand that staying married to you feels like another blow and you don't want to cause him anymore pian or disrespect...that even though you love him and would love to stay married that alowing the divorce is the best thing you could do for him right now.

i would ask him not to rush the divorce though.....isn't there a mandatory seperation time before divorce in most states?

I am so amazed that this doesn't happen more. I see this being more of a problem for the betrayed husband than the betrayed wife. The thoughts of someone else sleeping with the woman you married, had children with and loved is almost unbearable. Then throw in the months and months where the betrayed had to work just to get a chance at saving the M and WOW do you ever have a plate full of resentment even if things work out so to speak.

Pride is a big thing and one that is hard to control. McBecca's actions told her BH that he was not good enough, not sexy enough, not smart enough, not sensitive enough, not handsome enough, not, not, not......and now that he has convinced McBecca that he is he wants her to feel what he felt and feels and he can't figure out a way to make her pay or hurt enough for what she has done to him and the family. He even wants the innocent child to hurt because it is part of McBecca and OM, not him.

I think he needs spirtual and individual counseling in the worst way. McBecca needs to at every corner validate and repeat what he is feeling, asking how she can make the hurt more bearable though she cannot change the past. I do agree that pressuring him and trying to guilt him into staying married is unwise. I think telling him your heartfelt feelings for him and then recognizing that you and the affair you chose to have may just be too much for him to overcome, thereby freeing him to chose his path may be effective.

I truly hope this works out for the children's sake and because I think you two have a chance at a different and better M if this large mountain can be climbed.

{{{{{{{{{McBecca}}}}}}}}}

I am so sorry that you are going through this, but I see a glimmer of hope here. He has said, basically, that he is going to give you till this summer? Well, if he was so hot to get D'd, he would have called his lawyers and told them to file already! This is giving you time to work on your Plan A and knock his socks off with it! Also, what are your state's laws regarding D? Many have a waiting period before anything final can be done. Check to see what those might be. It may give you even more time! One other thing that kinda hit me was your mention that if the xom found out about a D, he would be happy, well, you could possibly use that to your benefit as well with BH. If he knew that remaining M'd would be a thorn in xom's side, that he couldn't have you and you chose H over him, maybe that will help BH come around as well.

Yes, you need to get your "ducks in a row" for this summer's possibilities, but don't give up yet! Read, and re-read all that you can. Stock up your knowledge of how to re-win your H's heart! Keep up the good work, and no matter what the outcome, at least you can say that you did your best, right? If you give up now, it would be a failure, if you try your hardest to repair this M, you may just end up with celebrating your 25th with your BH down the road! But, no matter the outcome, if you work at it, you will know that there was nothing else you could have done.

I hope and pray that your BH comes around. Please keep us updated.

{{{{{McBecca}}}}}

What do you want?

Becca .... you ought to respond to the following
line
by
line

Pep


McB,

There is an old saying the the Hall of Fame Coach, John Madden , uses. You need to consider it.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

don't roll out the hoses until you know where the fire is.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Have you talked to him about his feelings concerning what OM did to HIM. Do you need a list to help you recall?

1. OM took his W.

2. OM impregnated his W.

3. OM then tells EVERYONE what he did and that there is an OC in the situation.

In short, OM has done about as much as one man could do to another. Isn't it time you thought just a bit about your H and this situation? I hate to sound harsh, but all of your posts are about what you are feeling, and what YOU fear, and what YOU feel you need to do to protect yourself.

Isn't it time to consider that your H is right now a little wacked out from all of this? Isn't time to cut him some slack and see if he is serious? A man dead set on divorce doesn't just say "well we'll do it in awhile". Nope a man deadset on a divorce is down visiting his lawyer and filing.

That has not happened and it may not happen IF you don't give up. The man is hurt, and further you have expressed that he is not the best at discussing his emotions or handling them.

McB, don't roll out the hoses just yet.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I guess too much! I want the great marriage, being able to feel part of a marriage and not just someone who screwed up and will never be on the same level. I want intimacy, I want friendship, I want to feel secure in the relationship.

Even when we were supposedly trying to work things out, things weren't good. Now I know why. He isn't trying. But how can I ask him to try anything after what I've done? why should he? All there is left for him is uncertainty.

I would like to know exactly how he feels but he won't share. Like I said he is a private person and has always been, I never really knew he loved me until last year when the affair first came out in the open. He was very emotional at that time, crying constantly, upset, begging me to stay. But all that was before we knew of OC.

Now I feel if I am emotional and cry in front of him, he is going to think I Am just scared to be on my own. I think in a way I have to show him that no matter how painful I will go through with the divorce because that will show him that I am not staying out of fear. It is a catch 22, if I show him how much I don't want a divorce, he doesn't believe it and thinks I am just staying until something better comes along or until the baby is old enough... if I go through with the divorce and agree to it all, then it seem as if I have given up and don't want my marriage.

I really don't know what to do. I am trying to stay calm, not freak out, not cry at the drop of a hat (in front of him) and trying to do the things that I will need to do in order to be on my own.

B

McB,

There is an old saying the the Hall of Fame Coach, John Madden , uses. You need to consider it.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

don't roll out the hoses until you know where the fire is.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I know that is the case. He hasn't filed yet and he is still with me and actually acting quite loving and patient. I am trying not to get my hopes up, and trying to be normal in front of him. Should I show him more emotion? should I tell him how I feel? I am afraid if he thinks I am doing this for fear, he will think it isn't because I WANT to stay married.



Have you talked to him about his feelings concerning what OM did to HIM. Do you need a list to help you recall?

not really... he only tells me he is angry about it all, but he won't elaborate.

1. OM took his W.

2. OM impregnated his W.

3. OM then tells EVERYONE what he did and that there is an OC in the situation.

Yes well, once again OM is a SH*THEAD! but again, I will NEVER EVER EVER move back to where OM lives and that is FINAL! BH knows this because I cannot face the people I wokred with after the crap OM has told them.

In short, OM has done about as much as one man could do to another. Isn't it time you thought just a bit about your H and this situation? I hate to sound harsh, but all of your posts are about what you are feeling, and what YOU fear, and what YOU feel you need to do to protect yourself.

Ok, but I don't know how he feels or what he really wants. From what he tells me he wants to see if he can find hapiness somewhere else. He feels our relationship is done!

Isn't it time to consider that your H is right now a little wacked out from all of this? Isn't time to cut him some slack and see if he is serious? A man dead set on divorce doesn't just say "well we'll do it in awhile". Nope a man deadset on a divorce is down visiting his lawyer and filing.

I think he is thinking of the children. We just moved here and our oldest had a hard time adjusting, if we move AGAIN it will be yet another adjustment. I think part of the reason he wants to wait a bit is so it is less stressful on the children too. Also, would he have to pay spousal support if he were to leave now because I am not working due to moving here for his job?

That has not happened and it may not happen IF you don't give up. The man is hurt, and further you have expressed that he is not the best at discussing his emotions or handling them.

So what shoud I do? I feel like what he wants from me most is to respect his wishes after all I am the one who hurt him.

McB, don't roll out the hoses just yet.

Please think about this.

Ok.... I won't but as the guilty party, shouldn't I at least respect his decision and accept it that my f'ck up is beyond repair?

I think Pep makes some good points. As far as your H goes... his statement about not letting your child stay with him speaks volumes to me... this is what I was afraid of. If he makes the decision to NOT be a COMPLETE father to this child... the OM should be given the chance to be the father that he is to this child. He can certainly become a good father... people can change can't they McB? I mean what labels could others have put on you months ago....??? and look at where you are now. Your daughters father.... her bio father... can be a very good option IN THE EVENT THAT YOUR HUSBAND continues down this path. If he changes his tune...my vote is for you to continue working on the M. If you will recall though... several months ago this is exactly the scenario that I feared... and I do NOT want to see your child grow up without a father.
And while I sincerely hope your H recovers from the terrible hurt he is having to deal with... please know that he COULD BE very serious about divorce at this point and it may not be just his hurt talking. Just because he is waiting until you are in a better financial place does not mean he is not serious.

"Considering he hasn't done anything to keep contact with OC I am not sure I even want him in her life."

This was at your and your husbands request so I do not agree with the logic. You and everyone else here were slamming him about possibly fighting to stay in his daughters life and now you are saying that because he went with your wishes that he was wrong. I will respectfully disagree.

Follow Pep and others advice as far as your H goes... but have a plan in place as to how you will proceed should the divorce papers come. I am sorry to say that based on your H's words, I would say that it is likely that will occur
Please take care of yourself McB.

McBecca - You cannot control him you can only control yourself. I do believe this is as Pep said a test of your resolve. I would pay no heed to what he says other than to validate his feelings but if he wants a divorce let him do the work. All yu can do is Plan A to see if he can see changes in you and fall in love again.

Everything else is just borrowing trouble from tomorrow.

But like MEDC said, get the ducks lined up for CS if that becomes necessary.

McBecca - perhaps you are trying too hard to fix it ALL AT ONCE - to hav ethe perfect marriage NOW. And it's too much pressure.

Read the "Be Still" thread - again, and again. Until you know what it's like to just be still.

These song lyrics came to mind - I hope you've had a chance to see the video.


Stop making it harder than it is - just love him.

I'll be the dissenter again so gotta get my targets properly in position over my butt.

IMO there is no circumstance under which I would *volunteer* to introduce your former affair partner [and her BF] into the equation..not even for CS.

Here's why. What you already know is that your entire relationship with this man is corrupt and sick and destructive and addictive. That's not going to change [why NC is for life]. I know people so often wish "well why can't we all just be grownups and DEAL with this situation like grownups and make it work for the best interest of the child?!"

Frustrating as it is..what I believe is that the two of you are INCAPABLE of doing that. If you could behave like grownups and control your addictions and skewed reactions to each other there wouldn't BE an OC. There is not one single shred of history that supports the possibility for the two of you to to sustain a positive relationship and I fear that OC would be FURTHER damaged by being stuck in this malestrom. Better FROM a sick relationship than IN one..right? Better NO father than a BAD one. My belief is that the corrupt nature of the relationship prevents coparenting from being a viable option. Honestly I would just cut ties and cut everyones losses.

Now that was my glimpse into what I think is the unlikely future because I believe he is not remotely likely to folow thorugh on this even if HE thinks that he is right now.

He might. You may have a very accurate snapshot of what is going on in his mind and heart but as we all know..feelings are very fickle. He was badly triggered..as a WS I doubt I can even explain to you how horrific the betrayal and VIOLATION of an affair really is so I won't bother.

VIOLATION is the key word and an OC is ..really...just the worst case scenario there.

I'd look at the work incident EXACTLY as though he was raped...wound up pregnant as a result...and had people [and his violator!] taunt him and call him a slut at his job.

I know as a man it MUST be a different experience but I'm a woman and in that circumstance that is precisely what imagery comes into my head.

Since you are also a woman I'm sure that YOU can use that imagery as well.

So it's no suprise that he's reacted pretty badly to it and may very well be feeling pretty hopeless and depressed and ANGRY. It's no suprise that he is pulling away from OC when he was previously very caring of her [and even still he can't COMPLETELY refuse her..he has bonded even though it probably causes a great deal of internal FRICTION].

I think it is OK to show pain. I was always affected and moved by my Hs tears of genuine remorse and regret and sorrow...heck even self pity because I can certainly empathize with feeling pretty bad about yourself.

I would stay the ****** away from justifications or blameshifting and I would stay away from detached "OK see you in court" as well.

I really just think plan A and I really think that a phone call to SH would be very helpfull in formulating a situation specific plan.

McB,

So much to say and little time to do it. You said
Ok, here is a clue...honesty. Why don't you simply try honesty instead of trying to play games. I don't want cry because he may think... I want to show him I am willing to divorce... I want, I want.

Oddly if you love the man and want this marriage why not simply tell him this. You have no control if he divorces you, but you are a fool if you think playing games instead of being honest with him will work.

If you want to remain married to him...tell him.

Better yet IF you want to remain married to him...answer this simple question, WHY?

WHY do you want to remain married to him?

Is it for the kids (not a wrong reason).

Is it because you know more than you did even a few months a go?

Is it because you respect him?

Is it because you actually do see good in him?

Is it because you actually want to be his partner?

Is it because you are afraid?

Is it because he would make a better father to your youngest than anyone else?

Is it because it would be more convenient?

You need to be brutally honest as to why you want to remain married to him IF you really do. If the answer were to be yes to all of these questions, then tell him.

You also should be talking to him about his anger, but in a way that is constructive. You do know that anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as; fear, frustration, pain, etc.

Ask him what he fears, what images hurt him the most, discuss with him the issues of your new child and what HE sees as possible solutions. Talk with your kids and get their input about your H and relay it to him.

YOU need to open up the dialogue. You already know that what OM did to your family and specifically to your H HURT BIG TIME. Have you acknowledged that? YOu don't need to apologize for OM, you need to apologize for bringing OM into your lives.

McB, there used to be a lady that posted here. Currently I cannot remember her name but I will. She was divorced by her H because she had a long term affair. She did NOT realize what she had lost and her kids had lost until the ink was on the divorce decree, she was THAT fogged out.

Her goal was to somehow reunite her family and she did it. It took several years, and a lot of rejection by her exH, but she did it. She was/(and I presume still is) very happy and so was their children and her H.

If anyone else can remember her user name, please chime in, I am sure it will come to me, but age <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> is getting to me it seems.

I agree that you should make plans to take care of your family IF he does not change his mind, but I would remind you that he may well change his mind after the divorce. You can have the marriage you want, but you know what it will require???? HONESTY. Your H needs to know of your dreams, and more he needs to know HIS PLACE in your dreams.

Your marriage was not good before this, but DUH!, that is usually how it happens. Nevertheless, you can learn, have learned, and if you are willing to learn more, your marriage can be much better. Your H needs to know you understand this.

What is required on the part of both of you is NOT CHANGING yourselves. It is changing your perspectives about each other, marriage, and commitment.

Please think about this. And quit with the excuses. When I asked
You answered
That is just an excuse from you. YOU need to talk to him about HIS pain. You need to get him to open up and you need to listen, and take all advice you can get on how to do this. If you want this marriage, you cannot take NO for an answer.

Time to toughen up McB. Your marriage rides on you being something you have not been for a while: tough, honest, relentless, and loving.

Again, please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I've been knocking on this door ... but no one's home <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I can't remember either ....

it was a long haul plan
but she did it

Pep

the title of this thread has been bugging me

FALSE RECOVERY

it is just not accurate

recovery is supposed to be
this difficult
this up & down
this uneasy
this fragile
and this UNcertain of success

our recovery was full of doubt
and we had NC immediately, no OC to contend with, and we had a lot of geographical distance between families

I was contemplating divorce many many times ... especially the first year, but also once or twice the second year as well

in fact, after watching the movie "Waiting to Exhale" ... I actually wrote up my personal "escape plan" .... where I would live, how I whould survive ... if I decided to divorce

so Becca ~~~> get back to work

this is NOT a "false recovery"

it's just a damn tough one full of misery

the backwash of adultery is misery

get through it
work toward your goal

Pep

Tripple ditto.

If FWSs knew what was lurking in the minds and hearts of their BSs most of the time they'd never sleep unarmed.

It's not a false recovery unless the A resumes...that is the intended meaning of the term.

This? This is par for the course..normal...expected...etc as so many have said.

Sometimes it does result in divorce but...not very often and his signals are not consistent with someone who is seriously out the door.

Ihope that doesn't give a false sense of security though...your reactions here are probably very important.

I agree with JL...please be honest and tough...don't protect yourself with giving him what you think he wants...be naked and vulnerable with humility.

It's SCARY but it is NOT too much to ask.

I may be off base here..haven't been keeping up closely..but I want to add this...

Part of his response that night may have to do with you REJECTING HIM SEXUALLY..bringing up the reading material...

THAT IS/WAS A MAJOR, MAJOR SOREPOINT FOR MY HUSBAND and many men..it's not about the sex as much as them feeling DISRESPECTED..

The book LOVE AND RESPECT stresses that DISRESPECT hurt a man's SOUL.....

my .o1 cent...

I barely lived through more than one FALSE RECOVERY..and yes, this is not that....

RECOVERY is just as hard if not harder..I called ourselves..THE WALKING WOUNDED..full of HOLES INTO OUR SOULS...EMOTIONALLY RAW....A very difficult, difficult time interval....

He actually initiated the talk, we were cuddling in bed and I just simply said "I love you" and he said "I know you do" and that's how it started.

He talked for the most part and I just kept my BIG mouth shut as I really wanted to listen to what he was saying. He said the THREE things that are forcing him to make this decision.

First - the lies.... he said he just cannot get over all the lying that went on during and after the A. He said he was so emotional last year for fear of losing me, until now he really didn't see it for what it is. All the lying (because I kept the PA part of the A from him).

Second - Trust... how can he trust me ever! how can he move on KNOWING that at any sign of trouble I could find the SAME excuses and do it again.

Third - Our children... what kind of message would he be sending to the girls by agreeing to stay with me after what I've done? does that mean he is condoning infidelity? that there are no consequences for actions like this? what if one of their husbands or even themselves became "cheaters"? would we want them to just stay with them after they've been cheated on?


So those are the reasons he gives me for not being able to do anything else other than a divorce.

I didn't say much because I just didn't know this is how he felt. It was the first time I was really hearing all of this.

He said sure I can say over and over that this will NEVER happen again but what happens when our marriage goes through a rough spot in the future? what if once again I feel justified have an A? He said no matter what I say right now, the truth is from now on for BOTH OF US there will always be an excuse to do it.

One thing that he did ask me was "you need to figure out if you want this marriage the way it is because most likely it will ALWAYS be this way. IF that is enough for you, then we can proceed but if you feel that your needs aren't met or you want more, then we have to divorce because sooner or later you will use that as an excuse for another A"

He keeps hearing me say how I Want a better marriage, how we need to change to make it so etc... and reading this line:
What is required on the part of both of you is NOT CHANGING yourselves. It is changing your perspectives about each other, marriage, and commitment.

right now just made SO MUCH sense to me!!! I need to change my perspective and forget about the "fairytale" and just accept things as they are.

I know in my heart I will NEVER again allow anyone else in my life as I did with OM. Even if I have to lock myself in a room for the rest of my life, I will NEVER be able to do this again. What I need to do is give him all the reasons why I DO want this marriage "AS IS"....

The biggest reason is I do love this man! He is someone I have always admired in many ways, and in many ways I want to be like him. My flaws are his strength and vice versa.

What OM gave me, the ONLY thing I can say I probably wanted from him was communication. BH is more reserved and quiet. BUT one of the reasons why we don't communicate as well anymore is because we DON'T have the time! with children, work and activities we don't have time to sit and talk for hours like we did when we first got married.

He did agree that we would need to make our M a priority and not our children as we always have. The children will benefit more if both of us are happy.

He said for him the marriage before was just right. He said sure it wasn't "perfect" but that was OK with him. He doesn't want "perfect" he wants what we had (before the A of course).

So ladies and gents... that was our talk. I do love my BH, I think I have and had pitty for OM as he was/is such a broken soul and somehow I thought our friendship could help him!! that goes back to another need of mine which is why I will now start volunteering and put it to good use!!

So any advice? thoughts?

We just left it at that.... didn't decide one way or the other. I want to tell him about this line that I just read because that is EXACTLY what he was trying to say and I didn't quite see it that way. We compliment each other so no, we don't need to change necessarily (sure, I need to change my bounderies and realize no more opposite sex friendships EVER) but ultimately what I need to change is my perspective of what a good marriage should be.

B

If he says this again, tell him this is what you want even if it is always this way. It is enough for me, but I will always try to make things better.


This doesn't sound like imminent divorce to me.

Well show him how much better it will be than what was OK with him. Continue to meet his ENs. Right don't talk about R/M unless he brings it up, and then don't argue. He is going through a resentment phase that will pass.

Dr. Harley says this. "If a spouse consistently meets the others top 5 ENs and avoids LB, they will find that spouse irresistable and fall in love with them." As the M starts to improve and his love bank gets filled back up, then push him a little more to meet your needs. You are okay, Dr. Harley says it may take several years to recover from infidelity and having an OC is probably one of the worst cases to have to deal with.

McB...

This is not the conversation of a man who is walking away.

He is having the SAME SAME SAME thoughts as all of us and trouble forgiving himself for forgiving you or even wanting to.


Bob pure has a whole thread dedicated to this issue on the recovery board..maybe checking it out will help give some insight.

He is having trouble volunteering for another dose of abuse and as of yet he really does NOT have any compelling reason to think that if you were unhappy you wouldn't do the same thing because he is not you and can not experience your affair from your perspective. He is not seeing YOU yet as the blend of post and pre and duration of A Becca...he is likely still watching through the eyes of an actively BS and it will warp his persepctive.

What he knows is that you are capable of lying to him and having sex with another man behind his back and justifying it. he doesn't trust you yet..not in practical matters and certainly not with his heart.

It takes TIME for his perspective to change and he will have to heal to a certain degree before he can see your regret and genuine remorse at something besides just the consequences for yourself.

The whole world is telling him he is a fool and there is no comfort anywhere.

Do what you can to be a comfort..what sorts of activities did he enjoy when you were dating or newly married?

Can you find a way to ditch some of the demands and even the kids more regularly and work on the RA and companionship element?

Can you get in 15 hrs a week without making it part of a program [read chore]and instead just say...I'd like to see a movie friday, seen any interesting previews lately?

For me this was very helpfull. I had to learn to LIKE my H again before I was willing to love him again or make any sort of commitment.

I would advise no more relationship talks that aren't started by him for a short period of time and just focus on filling the ENs that he will let you fill. Have fun together..watch movies, play charades, go eat something weird that makes you both laugh and get grossed out...low pressure fun activities.

SF is tricky..on the one hand you don't want to reject him..on the other understand that having sex with you is likely ...very likely...triggering him. The mental movies are EXCRUCIATING.

There are a lot of threads around on the recovery board about people dealing with that as well.

good for both of you!

EVERY BS feels some version of this turmoil ....

it was difficult for him to say
and it was difficult for you to listen to it

GOOD JOB

Pep

Our oldest DD can babysit our little one now and I just need to do it! I am always thinking "oh but spending time with the kids is so important" but the truth is our kids have us ALL the time! We used to enjoy long talks during dinner at some new restaurant, movies too. I am just going to do what you suggested without much planning just pick a movie and go, pick a restaurant and go.

We had the BEST talks during dinner but now we rarely get to go to dinner without the kids and well, talk is nearly impossible then!

The thing is SF is a big deal to me too. I feel connected to him if we are intimate on a regular basis, he doesn't quite realize that and I am afraid to say it because I am afraid he will think "Oh so this is why you got pregnant" so I guess it is probably a trigger for both us right now.

He did notice I've been rather quiet but part of that is simly because I don't feel I can SAY much anymore, I need to DO more. Actions speak louder than words right?

B

Sounds good Becca.

Great to have a built in sitter [ours is still cooking..lol...but we can't wait till she's ready] I'd suggest keep conversation light and fun...this is en deposit not relationship dissection time.

Not dismissing the need for FS or saying you shouldn't...more a heads up that it may be affecting him and why.

It's so inportant to rebuild those structures of friendship and loverdom...if the kids have to wait for your attention it is nothing but good life training. They will be FINE and will have much healthier expectations with regard to what keeps a marriage afloat.

.02 noodle

Just as another heads up..expect some backlash if and when things are going well in this department.

It means he's starting to invest/want and is meeting some internal resistance.

Plus, recovering your M is the greatest gift you can give your children. I think all children would gladly give up some "mommy/daddy and me" time to have their parents remain M and happy.

Becca,
Please take this in the spirit in which it is offered and understand that I may be able to relate to your BH pretty well, given my sitch...

(2X4 alert)

The next time you are about to SF with your husband and you feel the urge to discuss literature you sent him to fix or teach him a lesson - stop. Don't say ANYTHING. Just SF. Raise literature stuff like when you're in the car driving for four hours, especially the kind that shows how lousy a husband you think he is being... talking about that is not foreplay FOR ANYMAN. Meet his needs. Don't LB. Stop trying to educate him. That isn't YOUR JOB! Your job is to focus on meeting HIS NEEDS. Not train HIM TO MEET YOURS! Until he feels he can trust you, your love, your emotions, your actions, your morals, your intentions, your behaviors, there is just YOU DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES!

Not intentionally, but it sounds like you have slipped into, "Now that we're back let me fix you so that I won't have to cheat on you anymore"..... that's what HE HEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop telling him this, by trying to educate him... it only makes him (or any man for that matter) feel inept. IF YOU WANT A LIFETIME WITH YOUR HUSBAND, you need to be prepared to carry the load for much longer than you FORCED HIM TO CARRY THE LOAD during your A.

OK, I'll put my 2X4s away now.

((((((((((hugs BECCA))))))))))))

Heartsore

You are all so right, I keep wanting him to be someone he is NOT but at the same time, I want him to be who he is because if he becomes someone else, I may NOT want him!!! ooooiiiiyyyy did anyone GET that?? LOL!!

My expectations have always been so high in terms of relationships and I have always felt like he never measured up!

I will continue to listen and talk when he is ready. I know that at worse case scenerio we divorce but maybe this time is good for me to be able to give him back SOME of the respect I took away by boinking that PIECE OF SH*T OM!!!

B

LOL Becca

I love it when you show your spirit

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

M,

I think Noodle has a great "NOODLE".

She see's things very well from the BS point of view.

As a FBS I can tell you I was exactly where your BH is now. After my FWW told me, D-Day, she ended her A. I had supected for many months, nearly a year, but never confirmed. After D-day we both went into a deep dark place for about 3 month. Then she went "I'm over it let's go on". I on the other hand had never even started to get over it. We talked some for a few more months but she finally felt that since it was over and I was still not letting it go that she no longer wanted to talk about it because " I was just punishing her"


In some ways that may have been true. I finally sat down and thought about it and decided that I would never be getting the answers I needed because there were no such answers. There was no reason for her A it just was. "Sh## Happens"

Kind of a weird realization for me but true.

I decided that for us to move on with our M it was ecessary for me to put it behind us and not use it any longer as punishment or leverage etc. So that's is what I did. We then started moving on with life. Doing the things we always loved doing and inventing new things that we learned to love as much as the old. We met for lunch in the park went for walks and just talked about us about what we wanted to do in our life together. No further A talk.

We visited about 30 national parks over the course of the next few years with our son. Just did a lot of being a family and living life.

It was not until I started reading here recently that my wife realized that I was still thinking about this. I finally explained to her that although I had never said anything to her about it, Never a day goes by that I still do not, at some time or other, think about that very dark time in our life. It will always be there but I choose not to dwell on it or let it dictate our happiness in life.

My only reason for posting this is so that you may in some way begin to grasp the level of hurt you have heaped upon your BS.

My wife never really did until very recently.

I also would hope your BH can see that his actions are not going to make for a better M for you. He needs to come grip with it and this stuff happens and he needs to decide if he wants this M to work then he needs to work on it.

We have had a very good life together and are doing even better as time goes by.

McBecca,

QUOTE:
"Second - Trust... how can he trust me ever! how can he move on KNOWING that at any sign of trouble I could find the SAME excuses and do it again."

This is the question that needs answering, IMO. If you can answer this, then he will KNOW that it will not happen again. AS I see it, this is how a WS becomes a FWS. You won't find this answer in a book or in a post on this site. It can only come from within YOU. How do you KNOW that it can't happen again, given the same or worse state in your marriage?

For a BS, the greatest agony is in trying so hard to "fix" what is wrong w/ the M, knowing that it cannot be sustained at that level forever. A BS needs to know that they don't have to be perfect, can have a lapse in meeting ENs and still not have to worry about what will happen.

What boundaries have YOU established for yourself that guarantee that you will not look outside your M to get your ENs met...ever?!

You need to show him what you have done and are continuing to do along these lines. The day every BS lives for is the day that you know that you don't have to police the relationship because the FWS is doing that job for you. Then all the BS has to do is police their OWN boundaries. When that day arrives, the M is restored to its rightful place.

As others have already said, it ain't instant pudding. Recovery is HARD work. It takes a LONG time. Stop trying to teach him where he went wrong and SHOW him how you know that you will never go wrong again.

The question isn't "Why did I do this?"; it is "How did I let this happen to US?" A BS knows they weren't meeting their WS's ENs but their own ENs weren't being met either. What allowed the WS to break the vows they made and the BS didn't do so? You aren't looking for a CAUSE without, but a LAPSE within.

Mark

McB,

I believe it was you that I spoke with about your H when you first came here. You had a message from him and somehow found it lacking in information. I recall pointing out to you that your H had in fact given you a huge amount of information.

I mention this in light of what you just said to me.

You said your H was a very private man and did not speak of his feelings and emotions. Then you post
First, don't you think those are valid reasons for him to divorce you? Second, do you see HOW much information he has given you? He has told you of his deepest feelings and fears. He has opened up to you and yet I sense you don't see this. This is part of the perspective change I am talking about.

But, McB if you change your perspective you will also see something else in his list of reasons. What I see is he is ASKING you to address them. I believe he WANTS you and loves you, but YOU have to change your perspective enough to address his reasons. This is NOT a test on his part, it is a plea for help. The man is asking you to help him and his has told you specifically where he needs help.

Now there are no glib words you can say to respond to his plea and make it all better, but there are words associated with actions that will let him know you actually HEARD him and you willing to address his reasons.

So let's take them one at a time and I will offer you my thoughts for your consideration. I suspect you will receive many other thoughts as well.

But, first did you tell him that his reasons are valid? If not you should. Walk up to him and tell him you have been thinking about his reasons for getting a divorce and you realize they are real, they are powerful and they are valid.

Then you look the man in the eye and tell him you intend to address those reasons with actions and words because
I now realize And more importantly you (H) and I agree that And part of that priority is my realization that I need to change my perspective on our marriage My goal and promise to you, H, is to not make the marriage perfect, but to ENJOY the marriage we have. To ENJOY you, our children, our time together.

McB, why would you be saying such things even if it is me putting those words in your mouth?? I'll tell you why.

IF you change your perspective and decide to ENJOY your H, see the humor in his failings, enjoy your children and savor their growing, take JOY in your life and the trials and tribulations...YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MARRIAGE. IT is not about going back to pre-A, it is about changing how you savor and enjoy the marriage.

Now let's consider his reasons for leaving. The first one was
Ok, we can list why you lied right?

1. You did not want to hurt him or your family.
2. You wanted to protect yourself( huge reason to lie right?)
3. You wanted to continue the affair, right?

What other reasons? Did any of them include hurting him, not really, BUT you knew he would be hurt if he found the lies. You lied because you were in the affair, you did not start the affair because you lied.

Do you see the distinction? If normally you are an honest person, the way you avoid lying is to avoid being in situations that will lead to lying. So while you can promise not to lie again, what you really need to do is develop and PLAN with him so that lying is never a temptation. I think with regard to the lying your best defense is simply to admit you did it for your purposes and the purposes where those you were ashamed of. Your plan now is to be "radically honest" so that YOU AND YOUR H can head off situations wehre lying seems to be the best course of action, even knowing it never is a good course.

You cannot take back the lies, but you can develop a plan to avoid lying again. Further, you might point out given all that you have done and have had to face, you KNOW that being honest would be easier. THink about this abit.

Now on to the next reason
Excellent question and one that has been asked by the many thousands of BS's that have posted on this site, and millions more that have never posted. Your short answer to him, is that he has no need to trust you right now, you will be transparent to him, he is free to check, he is free to ask questions.

But, you might consider discussing what trust really is. It is the ability to use past actions to predict future behavior. The most recent behavior is the most heavily weighed of course. He can trust you, if he will do two things. First, he needs to recall that for most of your marriage, you have been trustworthy even in rough spots. Yes you failed terribly...ONCE. But, you have learned some hard lessons and the consequences will be felt for the rest of your life whether he stays or goes.

The second part is more straight forward. He needs to allow you to SHOW him that you can be trusted. If he will allow you time to build up the data base with trustworthy actions he can develop trust, but simply letting you be what you want to be, trustworthy. He does not have to do anything except watch, and check up as he pleases. You are alright with him checking on you, in fact you will encourage it.

Now here is something neither of you might have considered and it comes under the heading of perception. Most people complain when the BS checks up on them, they feel it is an invasion. Yet, the same WS's say "He/She never cared or loved me." My take on this is that checking up on you shows his care AND love. Tell the man the more he checks the more you will love it because it shows he cares and that is after all you ever wanted to really be sure of in the marriage...his care and his love.

Odd isn't it? Checking up goes from being something that shows lack of trust, to something that shows care and love. It is all in the perspective isn't it?

Let's take a look at the last one. I am so glad he brought this one up because it opens soooooo many doors for you and he to really do some positive things.

He said
Ok, do your daughters know of the affair? If they don't then his reasoning isn't valid is it? But, if you two have decided to tell them in age appropriate ways or they already know, then your H has the OPPORTUNITY to decide what kind of message this gives them. You also have an OPPORTUNITY to show your daughters many things, but let me address your H's options.

It seems to me if he decides to remain married to you and rear OM's daughter as his own, that your daughters are going to learn some very very powerful lessons.

1. That forgiveness is a great attribute to have because the family is going to thrive within the context of your H's forgiveness, grace and leadership.

2. That he is a very very devoted and strong man. He honors his family and tries to do what is best for his children.

3. That he is a man that can see the innocence of a child even one that is not his biologically and love that child.

4. That he is a man that has been deeply hurt (they will know this really only as they reach adulthood), but overcame it.

5. He is a man that learns and grows from adversity.

6. He is a man to be respected and honored.

How is that for starters? Would you like your daughters to have those same attributes?

Now what would your daughters learn from you?

1. You have had the strength to face your failing.

2. You have had the strength to learn from your failings.

3. You overcame your failings and became the woman you always wanted to be.

4. That one mistake no matter how grievous can be overcome with an open mind, a good heart, and lot of hard work.

5. It helps to marry the RIGHT man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think I could go on, but it seems to me your children stand to learn alot more from both of you IF you two can change your perspectives and make this marriage work.

I have rattled on long enough, but I hope that you see McB, you do have a lot to talk about with your H, and it starts with validating his points of view and starting to change your perspectives. Your H is not perfect and never will be, but he does have his strengths and those are carrying things right now.

What this man needs is YOUR support in validating his feelings. In explaining to him his strengths. In showing him how to smile and love. In showing him his OPPORTUNITIES. What he does not need is you trying to change him or educate him. Work from his strengths McB and I think you may have a good chance of having better marriage but probably NOT a perfect one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I hope this helps you.

God Bless,

JL

JL, you are just simply amazing. Do you realize how many people you help here? You turned my day around with this post. Maybe you turned my marriage around too.

Thank you...
~Saturn

SaturnRising,

You are more than kind. I do hope that sometimes I say things that help. I am glad something I have said has helped you.

God Bless,

JL

Something in this thread just caught my eye...and this line from good ol' noodle really stood out to me:



Yes, yes, yes. I'm the BW, Becca, and you are getting excellent advice here. EXCELLENT. Start Plan A'ing like crazy ~ if you really want to save your M, that is. And DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT point out any of his behaviors and/or problems in the M that might possibly sound like you are trying to justify your A. STEER CLEAR OF THAT FOR NOW.

I'm only saying this because I am in a very similar place to your H, except (Thank God!!!), my H is really starting to "get it" now and is working hard at trying to meet my ENs. But let me tell you, about 2 months ago, I WAS DONE. I even started formulating my "plan" in my head. I had Plan A'ed my [censored] off for months and months, both while the A had gone on, and then for 6 more months while he was all fogged out. And during that time I got NONE OF MY NEEDS MET. I had finally just had enough. I knew I was in trouble when I started asking myself "what in the heck do I love about him anyways?!?!? OW can have him, he sucks!" And my eyes started wandering...and I started thinking "Hmm, if I got D'ed, I could probably go out with that guy...or that one...or that one." Yeah, I knew I was in trouble. And then all of a sudden ~ bam, he started to come around. And things have changed and are still changing. Far from perfect, but at least now he's trying to meet my needs ~ not perfect, but trying.

Forget about getting your needs met for a while ~ your H deserves to be pampered and treated like royalty for what he's gone through. This will be a huge turn-on for him, and he won't be able to help but fall in love with you again. TRUST ME. I'm sure that's hard ~ locking your taker up ~ but it's the only way it's gonna work. How long was your affair? How long were you all fogged out? Whatever that time frame is, double or triple it and know that you're going to have to Plan A your BH for that long, in order to even try to start to repair the damage.

The good news is, I would bet a lot of money that once you start totally selflessly meeting his needs for some time, he's going to start meeting yours as well ~ he won't be able to help it, because he'll be "in love" with you again.



DO NOT BE SO SURE. My H was ALWAYS home or at work too. ALWAYS. Most of his A was conducted via cell phone (it was a long distance EA at first), and when it turned into a PA, I was told he had to work a little "overtime" (yeah, he was "working overtime" all right) ~ it was NEVER like he was gone alot or anything ~ you can have sex in a matter of minutes if you want. Not that he did, but I'm just trying to illustrate that it doesn't have to take that long...a few hours here or there. That's it. Keep your eye out, a severely burned BS is very susceptible to an A. And your H has been severely burned.

And as Heartsore said (BTW, hiya HS!!!) ~ "...be the lighthouse!".

Your H needs you now ~ needs YOU to take over the recovery for the M. He's tired and burned out ~ trust me, I know.

Good luck...

~MF

Dear McBecca.

I am writing you to try to hope you can see how the shoe feels when it's the woman wearing them...I was you see, on a similar type receiving end of what your BH is living right now...and maybe if I can put it in my words for you, you can be able to be a BETTER HELP to him...

First of all, this man, the OM, is a horrid predator seeking to actively destroy your H...the man who DID stand by you...he went to his place of employment and told their friends the dirt...the awful dirty shame. And he can't get past it. He's hurt beyond words...he's shamed. He feels like you're maybe not being up front w/him or trying to morph him into "somebody like the OM monster" guy...all the while you haven't gotten the OM to sign off on paternity papers. How can your BH feel and regain his heart, dignity, and maybe learn to love the Oc? I can tell you...by kissing off the OM forever and for good. First of all that will mean by LOSING EGO all together right now. You still have some...there's still a small even teensy bit of WS still there...I read it in your words...here's a snippet of my perception...

you wrote, "My expectations have always been so high in terms of relationships and I have always felt like he never measured up!"

Well McB...he MORE THAN MEASURED UP...he didn't leave and hasn't divorced you yet has he?

Now let me tell you woman to woman how you'd feel if you had to walk in HIS SHOES FOR ONE DAY...

I remember...I was divorced 2 months when I had to meet my xh for a drop off with my son. I would not let the man at my home, and met him nearby for the child exchange. There, I saw my xh...the man who I'd been up until sixty days earlier married to and around for almost a decade standing there with his hands in his pockets...he never did that before..it was not his usual stance. I knew he was hiding something.

He was hiding the bracelet that they give new dads at the hospital when they become daddies. The one that lets them see their babies. I remember telling him to take those dam#ed hands out of his pockets...I saw it...and I remember feeling as though 10,000 knives were simultaneously stabbed into my heart and back. I remember not being able to breathe. And I remember asking him about the name..begging and pleading that no, he didn't name the child the name I had chosen for our son had he been a girl...

He got tears in his eyes and said the name was firmly chosen and that it was that name. I almost collapsed to the floor. But for my ds's sake, I held most of it in...only falling to pieces when I drove home.

That has to be one of the most selfish things in the world to do to a spouse. Not only cheat, but cheat with selfishness that one DOESN'T CONSIDER OR BOTHER TO THINK ABOUT BIRTH CONTROL OR A CONDOM...they just can't control it...so they do it without regard. Or thinking about a baby.

Now how do I feel about the Oc? I harbor NO RESENTMENT WHATSOEVER TO THAT CHILD. I teach my son to be sweet to her and I always remember to get her a present and a book to her for holidays and birthdays. I hurt for that baby b/c she is a gift from God and she's got two egocentric parents..one a golddigging egg donor and the other a narcissistic sperm donor. And I know their M will not last, their affair M that is...but I do know that my precious little boy needs a good relationship with his sister also and I will always help him maintain that...as that poor little one will have upheaval I fear again and again in her little life.

If you can show your BS that the OM is forever gone and is not to ever be a parent to that baby, and over time he can grow even as I did to see the beauty and love that precious child can offer its siblings and one day even him, he will be more of a man than you can imagine...the ultimate H ever!

But you gotta see it thru the eyes of one who was hurt and bled emotionally like nothing else.

Please be strong. You created this drama...for the WHOLE FAMILY...NOT JUST YOUR H...and created it for the baby too.

McB...my friend, the only way to get outta this is to GO THRU IT AND DO IT WITH DIGNITY...and love and with a heart committed to family, love, renewal and tomorrow.

That means get the OM outta your life forever and TAKE DRASTIC MEASURES to show your BH that this is the case! I swear in the recesses of his mind, he doesn't feel you've done that or his actions would be backing off a bit.

When I read how the OM told mutual friends and coworkers of your H, I was livid and angered beyond anything I've read here in some time. That man is a low life scumsucker of the lowest life form to crawl this earth. What a malehobag he is. I hope he now disgusts you.

Please recover your M. For your kids...for this precious baby...for yourself...and for the BH.

Please commit 100 percent to your BH and give him the honor and dignity of nothing less than a truly repentant heart showing that YOU HAVE CHANGED...request NOTHING from him for a while. YOU DID THE DEEDS...NOW YOU CARRY THAT BURDEN.

It ain't a light load...but this family depends on your strength and return to character and morality if it is to survive.

My prayers are with you all. God's blessings to you for a renewed family this year.

I appreciate EVERYONE'S posts of course but thank you so much for going down line by line for me... you know, my mind has been all over the place these last few months, I am still shocked that so many things which stand VERY clear now, were so "foggy" for me for so long.

You know, if someone had told me how I would feel today vs how I felt 3 or 4 months ago.. I wouldn't believe it! Sure NC has a lot to do with it, to be able to see things clearly etc. But I have to give God all the credit too. I kept asking him for a resolution to my situation, I kept thinking perhaps D was what is best for everyone. How stup*d of me to think that! I kept thinking I was in love with OM and now I realize just like all other WS I was in love with how he made me feel. The only thing he gave me that BH didn't was fill my need for conversation! OMG I ruined our lives for THAT? sometimes I wish there was more, but there isn't.... I don't care about him as a person. HE is selfish, imature, arrogant, gosh so many other things I could never tolerate in people... but I had convinced myself that I Was in love! I think looking at it all now, it was just a way to completely justify my actions. It was a way to put blame on BH when the only person to blame was me!

The saddest thing is that now I see that all I had to do to "fix" the things that were not going well in my M was for ME to talk to BH about them. For ME to open up to him. Instead I let resentment build and I convinced myself that he wouldn't care to hear those things.... I NEVER EVEN GAVE HIM A CHANCE!!! Ack!!

Oh well... realizing the reasons for my actions will only keep me from repeating those mistakes right?

Thank you so much, I know there is a lot of work ahead of me yet and God only knows if I could ever win back BH's heart but you know what? I brought us into this mess... I will take us out!!

Thanks so much for your post... I will read it daily!
Love

B

If you will read and listen here and most importantly have the attitude you espoused above then you can help lead your family out of this disaster.

Lastly, what has become of the the OM's involvement or lack thereof?

McB,

IT seems to me that if you read my last post to you, there is something in it you missed. You just said
I like your attitude, but what you missed is that you AND your H will take "US" out of it. That is the part that is hard to understand for both the WS and the BS.

I think you need to talk to him about the things we dicussed earlier, but you need to tell him you are ready and willing for him to "lead US" out of it. You need his help and you will do all you can.

You see part of what got you into this mess was thinking that YOU could do what was necessary. You did NOT let your H in on the plan nor the issues, YOU tried to solve the problem, whatever it truly was. Now this time, rely on your religious faith, ask your H if you can rely on you, and promise to HELP rebuild this marriage.

Life is a team sport McB. You and your H each need to know that the other one is an intimate and integral part of the team.

You are doing well, and with perspective changes that have come and are coming you two can find a very deep happiness.

God Bless,

JL

You read a message that is now over a year old to OM and you watch to PUKE because you are so disgusted with yourself! *insert PUKING icon here*

Ack! Hi everyone.... I thought I post a little update.... So here I am 4 months of NC, feeling absolutely NOTHING, ZERO, NADA for OM. ACtually.. there is a feeling associated with OM now that wasn't there before, shame! I feel sooooooooo freaking ashamed for that relationship :-( I wish I had known then what I know now. The sucess or failure of my M was in my hands all along but I was too blind to see that.

So here we are.... BH and I haven't finalized anything. We are actually quite loving towards one another. I am enjoying once again my life as his wife. I am no longer looking for all his flaws, instead I am rejoicing in his strength, his courage, his determination among so many other great qualities he has.

We've had a few talks but I try to let him initiate these talks. I have learned so much about the pain he is in. Remorse and regret is all I feel every time we talk but I know we have to talk about these things.

I had a HUGE panic attack this week because he is traveling and I had convinced myself that he is having a revenge A. I tried so hard not to confront him about it, but I did find a way to bring up the topic, he reassured me that as much as that may seem like the vindictive thing to do, he can't do it. He said although he could use my A as an excuse, it won't do any good to bring someone else into this mess and worse yet how could he explain to God his actions. But I know he is human,I am sure he is tempted and I Am sure it isn't easy for him to stay faithful now.

So here we are. I am not sure we are in "recovery" or what... I am afraid to ask him if he still wants a D. I don't know what else I can do at this point so I thought I check in with you my friends.

He told me just yesterday how he's kept ALL The emails he has from OM and I. He said he cannot bring himself to delete them yet. He said he doesn't know why he still has them but he feels he needs to keep them for now.

He also said he is afraid that he will never be able to meet all my needs and that is his biggest fear and what keeps him from moving forward. I once again just listened to him and didn't really say much. I want to tell him that meeting my emotional needs is alot easier than he thinks, I finally KNOW that it wasn't that he wasn't meeting my needs as much as the fact that I wasn't LETTING HIM meet my needs. IT was easy for me to dismiss any sign from him before, to dismiss any attempt from him. I allowed resentment to get between us and so any and all attempts from him were useless.

But... I couldn't say anything. I just listened. I guess I want to somehow SHOW him this and not so much talk about it anymore. Does that make any sense?

B

Well, I think the most important thing is to SHOW him, not talk about it. You have that part right.

I am curious

what specifically did you do to manage your panic?




yes
this is recovery
also a rollercoaster
did we neglect to tell you that?
*snicker*

actually, you are doing SUPER

this recovery rollercoaster goes up and down

fasten your seatbelt and HANG ON

Pep

from prayer to assuming the worse and trying to accept! It didn't help that I was PMSing too!! LOL!!

I guess this is where my "WS" status comes into play because no matter how strong my urge was to comfront him, acusse him and just totally blow my top off, I couldn't do it. I felt like I had NO RIGHT to demand any explanations, or that my expectations for him to be faithful didn't mean squat! Luckily, when we did talk he was able to reassure me without realizing that that's just what I needed.

During angry outbursts he had said a few times "I won't feel good about this unless I get the chance to f'ck a 25 yr old like you did" so those words kept going through my mind.... it was ugly. I cried a few days in a row while he was at work and of course I Would try to compose myself at night so he wouldn't notice. I think a lot has to do with the fact that now *I* am the one feeling insecure... I remember his tears to me last year so I Assume this is how he felt then (yes I know, how DARE I compare any of my pain to his?).... :-(

Anyway, I am SO grateful that he reassured me. I think if I had DEMANDED explanations or reassurance, things would have gone ugly but done in a "loving" way it all just came out natural.

B

Hi McB,

Good to see you hear. It seems as if progress is continuing. It seems to me you have some OPPORTUNITIES here, that perhaps you have not appreciated.

You said
Well, I suspect you do know why he is holding on to them...PROTECTION. My thinking is you just give him a hug, and say "I am sure when you are ready you will get rid of them. Take your time." Then give him a kiss. You know why you should say this??? Because it is true. In his own time he will find those emails are not of use to him.


Didn't we tell you that it would be HIS insecurities that would be the hardest to overcome. Would it seem a good time to explain to him that YOU have learned a few things about yourself and about him??? It seems to me it would. One thing you have learned is that if you two will communicate more about your fears, your insecurities, and yes needs, there will be much less chance of misunderstanding one another. You could reveal to him your own thinking, but ultimately, whether you closed down communications or he did not communicate, the issue is more of one of perspective than his inability. This WHOLE thing has changed your perspective on yourself, marriage, and certainly him, hasn't it?? Tell him how you see things now. Tell him what you like, respect, and love about him NOW. He should not have needed to be tested in this way, but his response has in fact really opened your eyes. Has it not???

Yes, do show him what you have learned but you still need to tell him of your changing perspective.

Finally, you said
Ah Young Grasshopper you are learning. The reality is that whether you are a WS or not, DEMANDING things is NOT a very good approach. You are NOT a second class citizen in this marriage, WS or not. In fact, what your H needs is for YOU to be a first class citizen. But, he does not need demands based on fear, speculation, or expectations. These things are in fact love busters and they come under the heading of Disrespectful Judgements, DJ's. They are very deadly. What he needs to hear are your concerns, your fears, and your love. Does this make sense to you?


Actually, you do have an idea how he felt don't you? Not completely because a W becoming pregnant by another man is probably most men's worst nightmare. Yet...what has he done? He has struggled, he has feared, but he is there with you. He is one very strong man. I cannot honestly say I would have his strength, but I would be proud if I did.

My point... the word reassurance keeps coming up doesn't?? Don't you think you both need it?


Yup, you are right, and within this is a lesson of how your marriage should be from now on. Tell him you have learned this, and how you have learned it. You BOTH need reassurances and that is very normal.

You are doing well McB and it seems that your H is coming along as well. Give it time and have a lot of patience with yourself and your H.

God Bless,

JL

Really pleased to see you back again Becca.