Marriage Builders
I was told to seek help here in GQII. Please read My Story.

I don't want the focus of this thread to be entirely on this other woman ... I am at fault here too. I just want to save my marriage, so any and all advice is welcomed.

Thanks!
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/24/07 10:57 PM
Well, the two of you are still very early in this. The pain he is feeling won't lessen for another year and a half or so.

Have you figured out WHY you had the affair? That is what I would be thinking about now. Unless you know why, you won't be able to safeguard your marriage in the future.
Yes. I have poured myself into figuring that out through IC, prayer, and mediation. He and I have discussed the "why"s. He has made a huge effort at correcting some previous behavior that triggered my feelings of loneliness and lovelessness. I have continued IC to make self-improvements, and have done LOTS of reading and learning too. I have learned more about myself in the last month than I have in my entire life!
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/24/07 11:17 PM
If you were lonely before and he is traveling a lot now, I see a problem.

How long have you been married? How many kids?
I was lonely before because even when he was here, he wasn't really "here" ... I would come home from work and not be acknowledged, I wouldn't be asked about my day, we would go out for lunch and he would be on the phone 1/2 the time, etc. I was more lonely when he was here than when he was away. Now he is making an effort at changing those behaviors.

Next month we will have been married for 6 years. 1 DD, age 5.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/24/07 11:28 PM
It is absoluletly essential to spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together. Otherwise, each person starts living their own separate life. That is what gets marriages in trouble.

I suggest you have hubby talk to the Harley's. It is expensive ($180. for an hour), but they cut to the chase and can give him solid advice. Your husband's plan will not help rebuild the marriage.
I am beginning to think he isn't interested in rebuilding the marriage and that his plan is to live a separate life. But that was a problem to begin with - during our marriage I never truly felt like a part of his life (that is not an excuse, just a fact). Any suggestions on how to present this request to him?
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 12:09 AM
I guess you could just ask him. He may not really know what he is feeling. It is very early in all of this. That is the problem with having an affair - the weakness in your relationship is still there, and on top of it is all of the pain.

I know what you are talking about because my husband (the WH), quit treating me like he loved me shortly after we married. It was just like he married me, that job was done, and on to the next thing.
It sucks to feel like you are there to love and support no matter what (especially in my H's career) and not feel that in return. Again, no excuse for what I did.

He says that he is only still married to me out of convenience. I deserve that comment, but is it true? I'm not sure if he even knows. I am doing my best to be as patient as I can. He quit saying he loves me right after he found out - but the other night did tell me that he still has love for me (not quite the same as "I love you" though). He doesn't want to hear that I love him either. He says it lost all meaning knowing that I said it to someone else. I can understand that, so I am trying to SHOW that I love him instead of saying it. I know it is still really early on in all this. I just want to see some small sign that he might give "us" another try ...
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 12:32 AM
hi. welcome. how long ago was your a?
Hi. It was discovered 2 months ago and ended immediately. I was actually trying to end it for a month before my H found out ... but I didn't. I was sucked into the fog - yuck, I despise who I was then. Have been in NC since the day the A was discovered [and will remain that way].
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 12:39 AM
ok. here is what I think i would do about the "be my maid" thing... i would say no. how do you think he would react to that?

dont do it... its just an idea!
I think he would tell me to kiss his a** ... I think he would be compelled to run straight into this other woman's arms. I think he would tell me we are done. I think that ... well, you get the point.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 12:45 AM
ok so thats a Bad idea.
Yeah - I thought about that too and came up with "bad idea". I am trying to do all the things that make him happy: He'll come home to a clean house and delicious home-cooked meal. He'll come home to a "welcome home" party and play by DD and me. He'll come home to an attractive wife and daughter. He'll come home to a kind, patient, loving woman and child. (I just wish he'd come home to a great night of sex too. But he decided we can't anymore.)
Posted By: techie Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 12:48 AM
small correction: $180 per hour for phone counselling with "the harleys"
Seems worth it to me, if he is willing.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 12:52 AM
sounds like you are doing a great job. are you holding up ok through it? i mean are you ok plan a'ing him. im only asking bc i had a really tough time with it at first but it became easier and its working out.
It is hard at times because the outcome is so uncertain. My IC says that I need to focus on the here and now and let go of the outcome ... that is WAY easier said than done. There is a great book I just read (along the lines of Plan A) called "Light His Fire". The title is somewhat misleading because I think it is more about loving yourself so you can love others, but it gives some great tips on keeping your mate happy and interested. I compliment him daily and do all those things I mentioned before. In the process of doing these things for him, I have found that I actually like doing them. (For example - I was never much of a housekeeper, but now I'm going nuts b/c my dryer is broken and I am behind on laundry.) I am more feminine ... I was uber-feminine when we were dating, and I guess it all went out the window when our DD was born. I am enjoying be more of a woman in my own right, rather than basing my femininity on how attractive other men find me. So it has its ups and downs. Sorry for the ultra-long answer.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 01:00 AM
ok - i am boggled by the lets work it out and then the great big No we are not married, be my maid thing! i dont hink i can help you with that - the other experts here can handle that... on to snooping. right now they are in ea most likely and according to you. if you were to snoop, what would you do? tap the phone? (i can help you with this) it is important to know what he is up to.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 01:03 AM
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In the process of doing these things for him, I have found that I actually like doing them

i think thats important. good.
Yeah - I know. Its like "I'll do things to make her happy and show affection and attention" ... no, wait "we're getting too close, just be my friend". Its confusion, but he must be going through a very confusing time right now.

I could check phone records, as our cells are on the same bill under my name. I could check email and myspace. I could tap his phone. I could have him followed when he is in her town. I just really want to honor his request - what if this whole thing is all just a test?
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 01:10 AM
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I just really want to honor his request - what if this whole thing is all just a test?

it very well could be. my H calls the phone tap a "sneaky snooper"... he always found out about it before i could get the information that i thought i needed.

i think i would tap the phone but you need be very, very careful that he does Not find out. also be very careful of what you hear. what if you hear that he is talking "nonsense" to this ow? would you be able to hold it in until an opportune time? ...and hold off on the email checking (unless you can get away with it) for a bit.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 01:11 AM
if you can check the cell without him finding out about it (phone bill) - do it.
I can check everything without him knowing about it ... I just don't know what it would prove or disprove. I feel like its a test to see if I will snoop or do what he asked of me. I am trying to do everything requested of me now to prove my loyalty.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 01:48 AM
it would prove he is doing nothing if thats the case and then you can truly be at ease about this ow. if he has something to hide - i would want to know about it before it gets any further.

dont do it if you dont feel "right" about it
Here's the thing about it ... I don't feel "right" about the friendship, but I don't feel "right" about checking up on it against his will either.

I told him when I asked about her that this is how A's begin, after all I've been there. He assured me that they have not discussed our situation but that they are friends. I just don't feel good about this friendship, especially since I didn't know about it before he found out about my A (though the friendship didn't really grow until after he found out about me). She has a history of being with men in my H's profession ... As his friend, if we don't work out, I want to warn him to be cautious of women interested in him b/c of his job (they might be after him for the wrong reasons). And I want to tell him that now about this woman, but I don't want to "rock the boat".

I mentioned in my other thread that we are getting along better than ever - I don't want to ruin that. He comes home tomorrow, and I'm still not sure how I can act like we're not married.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 02:02 AM
ok - dont do it. you may or may not be ready in the future. hold off for now.
Thank you for all your time and thoughts ... I'll be sure to contact you if I decide to start the snooping <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Do you have any thoughts on how to react to this "living together like we're separated" thing?
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 02:10 AM
try this on... when you were still in the ea stage... what if your H found out and decided it was going in the "wrong" direction and said something to you, how would you feel? would you feel saved or defensive?

you are still married to him. he is going through a rough time. you betrayed him (sorry!) and he is going through this. you have decided that it was a mistake and want to save the M. sounds to me like he has tried and decided not to (sorry!). the posters here vehemently believe that this can be worked out. and so do I.

you know what to do in your heart. if snooping doesnt feel right, dont do it. continue doing what youve been doing though. you need to break his resistance to "getting close' to you. how much time will you have before he leaves again?
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 02:13 AM
talk to him. find out what it will take for him to make a decision. you have a dd, and i am sure she loves her dadday... set up situations that require that you all interact Together.
He could be home all week or could be gone again on Friday ... will know better early in the week.

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you are still married to him. he is going through a rough time. you betrayed him (sorry!) and he is going through this. you have decided that it was a mistake and want to save the M. sounds to me like he has tried and decided not to (sorry!). the posters here vehemently believe that this can be worked out. and so do I.

At times I think he does, and at times I think he doesn't ... again, the roller coaster. I think we can work this out, but I also thing that we BOTH have to be willing to do what it takes. My only requests to him: continue what he's been doing to improve communication and attention, not quit having sex, drop this friendship with this girl. I'll do whatever he needs to work on this too.
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talk to him. find out what it will take for him to make a decision. you have a dd, and i am sure she loves her dadday... set up situations that require that you all interact Together.

I want to so badly ... last week though he said he felt like I was manipulating him by setting up family time and dinners alone. But then he told me later not to give up. (It seemed like he was saying "I need to just go through what I'm going through. Hang in there for a while.") I suppose I just need to anyway so that he'll see I'm not giving up.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 02:30 AM
you are awesome and have a great head! yes, the roller coaster (sorry!) what do you know about this girl? i dont know anything so technically she could be 9000 years old and fat. if you have him til friday then you have him for five whole days (do you work?) to plan a him - have fun with him- wlcome home plays with dd, etc., help him through this...

what do you think?
Well, thank you ... but I'm not feeling so awesome these days.

I know that she isn't ugly or fat (saw her pic on myspace ... that's how I found out about her). I know that she's wild. I know that she's around our age (28ish). I know her name and where she lives (city only). I know she has a history with men in my H's profession. I know he doesn't talk to her in front of me. I know he'll see her soon. YUCK!

So I have 5 days to WOW him. I do work and our schedules sort of clash, but I know he'll make time to be home with DD, which means family time too. I've made a lot of discoveries while he's been away and feel like a calmer person (I'm typically pretty Type A). Still not sure how I'm going to deal with all this, but I'm giving it my all. I just don't want to lose him. We've been with each other through a lot! He has been kind enough to say that we are great partners and we make a good team (very true).
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 03:02 AM
well, youve been through alot and its understandable. just know that someone out there believes that you are Awesome and i am sure i am Not the only one.

ok, so she is not 9000 years old or ugly... Issue!

you have been wowing him... thats why he is "afraid". he is afraid that you will hurt him again. its legitimate (sorry!).

i think i would go about "my business" as usual when he comes home. do whatever the norm is at your place minus the sex and back rubs. i dont know what you do for him that he doesnt want you to do so keep those things to a minimum. i dont know what you do as a family but do More of it. if he gets antsy - back off. feel him out. you will be ok. his rules "no sex, no back rubs, no doing things for him. But we can sleep in the same bed, and I am allowed to still do his laundry, cook his meals, pack his suitcase for his next trip, etc." do Not include spending time together, having fun together, talking and communication. i wouldnt talk about saving the marriage just yet either.. "let it go" for now (its just for now you can do it!)

what do you think?
Well, she's no Me though either (lol).

Sounds like that is the best plan of action (that must be what "plan A" stands for, haha). I do a lot for him, which is why the "don't do anything for me" will be so hard ... I will just be the best wife and mom I can be. I will show love through my actions and back off when needed. I just don't want him getting too comfortable with this friends/co-parents-living-together-but-separated thing. I don't want him thinking that this will last forever. At some point he'll need to decide if he's willing to give it a shot or not. I don't want to put pressure on him to make that decision though. I'll just be myself and hope he likes the new me and eventually falls in love all over again.
P.S. I think you are awesome too ... I can't thank you enough for your time and advice!
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 03:20 AM
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Well, she's no Me though either (lol).

I just don't want him getting too comfortable with this friends/co-parents-living-together-but-separated thing. I don't want him thinking that this will last forever. At some point he'll need to decide if he's willing to give it a shot or not. I don't want to put pressure on him to make that decision though. I'll just be myself and hope he likes the new me and eventually falls in love all over again.
No, shes not and that makes a difference. you are the mother of his child. you are his wife. you have history (the good stuff!)on your side.

so put a limit on it that you are comfortable with. you may have done the wrong thing but you have a right to have boundaries just as much as he does! dont worry about the pressure part until you feel that its gone too far for you.
I think deep down he knows that the history we have and support I've given to him will always outweigh any possible future relationships. Because of his career, he'll always wonder if any other woman is with him for the right reasons. But I was there when his career was minuscule, he knows I have been with him because I love him.

My therapist thinks I should set a time limit to this scenario. I'm just not sure how long to set it for, or how long I can handle it. Maybe I should just take it a day at a time.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 02/25/07 03:32 AM
you will know when you are getting close to not being able to do it anymore; when youre boundaries are being surpassed... you will know so dont fret about that. do your thing, take care of yourself and dd.
I will just be the best I can be and do what he needs as long as I can. I suppose it will be best to give his other top ENs extra attention since the one won't be being met. I think I can handle it. I'll just take it a day at a time.
UPDATE:

So, he came home (late) and was friendly. He commented on how nice the house looked, complemented how nice I looked, and was excited to see he had a "Welcome Home" party awaiting him. A delicious home-cooked meal was being placed on the table as he walked in the door. The no-sex-rule was broken ... YEAH! As we lay in bed last night, he asked what we're going to do. I told him that ultimately that was his decision, but I truly think it is worth it to save this marriage. We talked about it for a few minutes, calmly and kindly. I apologized and told him that I am willing to help him through this, be there for him, and do whatever it takes.

This morning, he told me he was sorry for confusing things by cuddling with me and having sex with me ... I gently told him to quit forcing not being close to me. If it comes naturally to be close to me one day and distant the next, that its ok and it is part of this process. After that he cuddled up for a few more minutes before we absolutely had to get up. It was nice.

I am still having concerns about this other woman, though.
I know it is unreasonable, but I would like to see him make a choice on whether to try at this M or not. Any suggestions on a way to hand over the SAA book in a manner that doesn't say "here, read it, make a decision" ... I don't want him to think I'm asking him to get over it (I'm not) - I just want him to learn more and make a decision from his knowledge and his heart.
Well, we had a discussion today and I mentioned the book. He kind of snarled and put it away. I still think he'll flip through it when I'm not home. Maybe I'm crazy.

The roller coaster ride continues! We've been getting along great since he got back in town and then this afternoon he had a depression-spell. I assured him that I understand that there will be times like that and I will stick by him no matter what. I apologized again and told him that the A was in no way worth any of what we're going through. He told me (nicely) to quit apologizing, that he knows I am sorry. He mentioned that maybe he should go find an apartment this weekend ... I asked him to please try to stay at home with DD and me so we can get through this together. He said we're only still together b/c of how much he's been traveling, but I kept thinking "no, you don't get it! we need to spend more time together". Anyway, by the time I got home, he was back in a good mood and we played and joked and enjoyed each other. He also said that he would like for us to spend time together as a family all day Sat. & Sun. This was great news, except I'd like to have some alone-time too! I guess when the little one goes to bed we'll have that time.
Well, last night he never came home! That's never a good sign. Found out he was at a friend's house ... I was up at 4am and never went back to sleep. He's out again tonight, and told me not to expect him home. He said if he comes home its a good surprise right? Whatever!

We talked a lot today though. I think he really felt bad about worrying me, but wasn't overly apologetic ... he even admitted that part of it was probably to prove a point to me. I explained that I would've appreciated knowing so that I could have been prepared to tell something to DD. He agreed to let me know from now on. But then tells me not to expect him home tonight!

He says he isn't sure that he can ever be "in love" with me again. He says he still loves and cares about me and is so grateful that our friendship has improved so much, but just isn't sure that he could ever be "in love" again - with me or anyone. So, I've been asked yet again to give him his space and act like we're divorced. It is clear that this M is still in tact out of pure convenience ... for him. While he's out all night, I'm taking care of the home and family, not to mention driving him to meet up and go out with friends. I realize that he is hurting and in excruciating pain and it must be difficult to try to meet the ENs of the person who broke your heart ... but I am getting nothing from him. He is RARELY meeting VERY FEW of my ENs. I feel selfish even hoping for him to, but I am feeling more empty than ever and find myself loosing faith. I need help! Any suggestions???
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/03/07 06:28 AM
TFC,my H told me the same exact thing last night about not sure if he could ever love me the same,but has no problem with SF!And he is acting the same way as well!I get very little emotion from him!They sound so alike!I guess that shows that is maybe normal behavior given what they have been through!It's been about the same amount of time for us both!And yes,I feel myself losing faith as well!Nothing has really changed,and he won't do anything to change it!I wish I could give you some advice,but I am truly lost right now as well!I guess all we can do is be patient and wait!I am just so tired of crying!The hurt and anxiety never goes away!I don't know about you but I feel completely obsessed!I hang on every word!
Well, he stayed out again last night - at least he had the decency to send me a text message letting me know. I don't think it is ok to not come home ... it sets a bad example for our DD. (Btw - during my A or any other time during my M, I have NEVER not come home when I said I would, and I have NEVER stayed out overnight!) So today and he tomorrow he has promised to spend with us, and only us. I really want to talk to him about this behavior. He feels justified in doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants because of what I did. He says he is trying, but its obvious he is not. I'm feeling used, as previously mentioned. Is it a bad idea to place some boundaries? (i.e. If you want to live here, you need to come home before morning. If you want to live here, you need to make your family your focus. If you want to live here, we need to go to MC since things are only getting worse, not better.)???
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I wish I could give you some advice,but I am truly lost right now as well!I guess all we can do is be patient and wait!I am just so tired of crying!The hurt and anxiety never goes away!I don't know about you but I feel completely obsessed!I hang on every word!

I am not feeling so patient today ... but I keep praying for God to give me strength and patience. And the crying? Tell me about it! I cried all day yesterday! I was like a leaky faucet. He kept saying "you're the one who did this" and I would reply "so I'm not allowed to have feelings?" He would finally console me a little and then things would be ok until a little bit later. I guess the worst part is all the mixed signals: I want us to share our lives, but not sure I want to be married; "I'm really trying here", but not coming home at night; "I want to have sex with you", "but we need to act like we're divorced"; "I've given up on you", but "please don't give up on me". (The list goes on and on.) Obsessed is a great word for it! I am completely enthralled in trying, but it is so hard to try when he keeps pushing harder and harder ... almost like he wants me to leave. But I'm not going anywhere! I JUST NEED SOME ADVICE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
bumping ... need some advice before H comes home this morning!
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/03/07 04:34 PM
((tfc))

I think you are okay to want some boundaries. You are trying to work on your M.

It sounds like your BH is very wounded and conflicted and he is trying to avoid being in pain by disappearing (not coming home). The conflicting things he says seem to me to show his fear of not wanting to be hurt again but isn't really willing to give up. You will only be able to show him by your actions that you truly want to have a better M.

Hate to continue to quote Dr. Phil but I have lots of time right now (last month of chemo) and he's becoming a favorite time waster...

"The only person you can control is you."

You are in IC which is excellent. Have you talked with your Dr about getting some AD's to help with the extreme emotions?

Have you heard of the book "Torn Asunder" by David Carder.
It explains both sides of recovery from infidelity for the BS and the WS. It might give you more insight into your BH's emotions and pain.

Sorry I don't have more advice. You can just keep assuring him that you are here for the long haul, willing to own your stuff in all of it(which you are doing in IC) and want to work on it with him (maybe MC?).

Hang in there-
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/04/07 05:39 PM
TFC!How r things going this weekend?Has he been coming home?How r u doing?
Thanks for checking in ... things are not going well. He finally came home and stayed there Sat & Sun. We had a loooooong talk last night - I don't know how I have any tears left. He has decided that Divorce is the only option for him. He will stay at home until school is out for the summer and then we will finalize everything. He says this isn't what he really wants, but feels like the only way I will gain/not lose respect for him is if he goes. He offered up that there is always the slight chance that we could end up back together, but that isn't much consolation right now. I am devastated to say the least. I want to schedule an appt with the Harleys, but it seems like his mind is already made up and there doesn't seem to be anything that will change it.

So, looks like I won't be around MB much longer ...
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/05/07 02:16 PM
T4C:

Why do you think this:


So, looks like I won't be around MB much longer ...


Your Husband has his head in his A$$ and maybe somewhere else and you think it's time to leave?

WWHHHYYY, We've just gotten started.....

You have only been here 2 weeks, your A was many months ago and your WH (?) is still wondering what to do.

So. Be Still. Relax.

The fight is about to begin. And it's not the fight you expected. But, if you leave, you will not have any idea what comes in the later rounds.

OK?

LG
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You are in IC which is excellent. Have you talked with your Dr about getting some AD's to help with the extreme emotions?

I am against taking meds, so I am trying to use prayer and meditation to get me through.

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Sorry I don't have more advice. You can just keep assuring him that you are here for the long haul, willing to own your stuff in all of it(which you are doing in IC) and want to work on it with him (maybe MC?).

Hang in there-

Thanks so much for your help ... you & your health will be in my prayers.
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T4C:

Why do you think this:


So, looks like I won't be around MB much longer ...


Your Husband has his head in his A$$ and maybe somewhere else and you think it's time to leave?

WWHHHYYY, We've just gotten started.....

You have only been here 2 weeks, your A was many months ago and your WH (?) is still wondering what to do.

So. Be Still. Relax.

The fight is about to begin. And it's not the fight you expected. But, if you leave, you will not have any idea what comes in the later rounds.

OK?

LG

Haha! Thank you for that LG! I trust that my BH is not a WH (yet), but his mind is made up. Since he's agreed to stay at home until school is out, I have a few more months to fight for it, but my hopes are fading day by day.
I asked if we could still spend our anniversary together ... he said he had plans and wasn't sure if he would change them. He thinks of our anniversary as a bad day, a slap in the face to remember a day I pledged my devotion and then didn't follow through. I guess I just hadn't thought of it like that.
So now I am really confused. I called on my way home from work to let him know I was on the way - he was busy and stressed and it got taken out on me. He said he was busy and would see me when I got home and hung up on me. I decided to give him a little space when I got home and just start cleaning up and hanging out with DD. Then he asks me to come talk to him while he showers. He told me that today was lonely for him and he was overwhelmed. I acknowledged how hard it is to have days like that. He asked if I still love him ... I told him that I have never stopped loving him. He told me he was worried I've written him off ... I explained that he is the one who wants to get a D and that I am just trying to what he asks of me. But I was sure to let him know that I've not written him or this M off and I will continue to fight for both.


So here we are again. Last night he's definitely leaving after school is out. Today he's lonely, wants to be assured I love him, and is concerned I've given up. I just don't know what to do anymore. The minute I realize that it probably really is over, he does/says something to make me think there's still a chance. What do I do?
Speaking from your husband's point of view, the pain of an affair is blinding, sharp, and the scars do not go away.

At times I feel as if I have Bipolar disorder, because the love/hate emotions swing frequently. Let me say one thing though, and it is one thing that has been said countless times to the betrayed spouses that frequent this haven, and I truly believe you would benefit from this advice:

Do not make yourself a doormat. Doing that makes you seem needy and being needy is not what attracted him to you in the first place. Be there for him, be available to meet his emotional needs, BUT DO NOT TURN YOURSELF INTO A SLAVE.

Stay in Plan A but don't be a panting little puppy following him around looking for the slightest bit of affection.

You do need to stop apologizing for what you have done; those are the type of words that if said too often, start sounding hollow and rehearsed. As my Pastor, Eric Olsen from Hudson, WI has said time and time again; "Not by words, by deeds."

It will take him at least two or three years to finally get to a comfortable point of healing in his heart, but he will never forget; be prepared for that.

I commend you on your efforts to save your marriage, and only wish my wife would do even 1% of what you are doing. She HAS moved out. She is STILL talking divorce. She STILL spends her free time off gallivanting instead of spending it with our children, and her cell phone is morphed into her body, whether it be text or calls.

Hang in there. As one of the veterans put so eloquently(I hope I get it right), "No one ever regrets doing what is right."
Hey TFC,sounds like u had a good day today!Wish I could say the same,but have yet to hear from H so I sent him a txt late this evening saying I wished he would have been here this weekend,and that he was missed!I keep trying,but nothing seems to work!Wish he would call me and tell me what he was thinking!At least your H seems concerned!
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Speaking from your husband's point of view, the pain of an affair is blinding, sharp, and the scars do not go away.

I know - that has probably been the harding thing to deal with ... that I hurt the man I love so much so deeply. That has been absolutely the hardest thing to accept about myself during this process.

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At times I feel as if I have Bipolar disorder, because the love/hate emotions swing frequently.

He seems to as well! One minute he's asking if I still love him, the next saying he has to go and is angry. I am trying my best to be supportive, understanding, and quiet when those times arise.

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Do not make yourself a doormat. Doing that makes you seem needy and being needy is not what attracted him to you in the first place. Be there for him, be available to meet his emotional needs, BUT DO NOT TURN YOURSELF INTO A SLAVE.

It is so hard not to do this, but over the last week I have slowed down on doing just for him. I still do for the family - laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc. But I have made fewer efforts to do things just for him.

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Stay in Plan A but don't be a panting little puppy following him around looking for the slightest bit of affection.

Again, this is difficult. But you are right. He is certainly more attentive when I seem self-sufficient and happy in my own right.

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You do need to stop apologizing for what you have done; those are the type of words that if said too often, start sounding hollow and rehearsed. As my Pastor, Eric Olsen from Hudson, WI has said time and time again; "Not by words, by deeds."

I agree. I have made sure not to apologize over and over and over again. I do apologize when discussions of the A come up, but I don't just keep saying how sorry I am. He asked me to quit saying "I love you" too. So I decided the best way that I could show that I am sorry and that I love him is through my actions. Let's hope he notices!

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I commend you on your efforts to save your marriage, and only wish my wife would do even 1% of what you are doing. She HAS moved out. She is STILL talking divorce. She STILL spends her free time off gallivanting instead of spending it with our children, and her cell phone is morphed into her body, whether it be text or calls.

I never wanted to lose my H or my M. I wanted his attention ... I should have looked for another way to get it though. I will be praying that your W comes out of the fog soon and realizes what she's missing out on.

Thank you so much for your kind advice. I am just going to plan A the heck out of him over the next 3 months and hope he changes his mind. But he's already told people he's getting a D and that concerns me. It seems like a lot of his decision to leave is ego ... understandable, since I shot it. But I told him the other night: "Its not up to your friends. Your friends can only tell you what THEY would do. They are not you and cannot tell you what you should do. Only you know what will make you happy and what you are willing to do."

Last night he told me that he was upset because he thinks that I feel like he just gave up and he feels like he tried. I told him that if he feels in his heart that he really gave it a shot, then that's ok. He quickly said something about it not being ok because it really matters what I think. I think he gave up ... but it is ultimately his choice to stay or go.

Sorry my posts are always so darn long. Thanks for "listening".
tfc

Good morning. Don't ever worry about long posts. This is the place to ramble, vent, etc.

Your H has a lot of pain to work through. You can't make it go any faster for him. But you can continue to show with your actions that you really are committed to making your M work.

Forgiveness is a process. It takes time for both a WS and BS to go through all the yuck and emotions to get to forgiveness.

Give yourself time to forgive yourself. That will help in healing your M as well.

I'm in your cheering section. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Thanks so much! He says he has forgiven me already and that he's not mad. This is most concerning because if he has forgiven and isn't mad and still doesn't want to be married, he's given up on this M. It is so hard to accept that this M is over ... I'm not giving up, but it is hard to think in terms of us not being together.

Since he travels so much, I thought that phone counseling with the Harleys may be our best bet. What does everyone think?
I think a call to the Harley's would be great!

Has your H read "Wild At Heart?" Have you? It might give you some insight into a man's heart. One of the things John Eldridge says is that a man's biggest fear is failure.

I'm sure your H is doing a lot of self-talk and considers himself a failure because he either wasn't enough to keep you by his side, or didn't love you enough to keep you happy.

I'm just speculating-not being male-but I know I did that alot after d-day.

So, keep on doing what you are doing-call the Harleys. Get a plan. And most importantly-keep hanging in there!
Posted By: techie Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/06/07 04:40 PM
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He says this isn't what he really wants, but feels like the only way I will gain/not lose respect for him is if he goes.


Wow... now there's "pea soup" level fog.
Obviously, this is NOT about YOUR feelings.

Maybe what he really feels, is that he cant respect *himself*, unless he divorces you.

either that, or he's having an affair with that woman, of course.

Hang in there. dont give up on your husband!
(and dont say "whatever you want" to his divorce whims either....)
Crazy right? I think he is cheating, but I waver on that too. I am just doing my best to be a good person despite all the craziness.

Any suggestions on getting him to commit to a session with the Harleys? Or should I have one session alone first?
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/06/07 07:40 PM
Ask him. It can't hurt to ask him if he's willing to do a phone counseling appointment with some people who are real specialists on helping M's survive after A's. Tell him it might help him decide what he wants to do since he is so conflicted.

It does sound like he's in a fog. Maybe he is having an revenge affair (not unheard of). Maybe he is so hurt he doesn't want to face you and the pain of it all. Maybe he is a conflict avoider who is trying to avoid you and ongoing conflict. Who knows? I would encourage you not to put your energy towards the "what if's" and "maybe's". Keep focused on your M and your plan.

If he won't agree to phone counseling-he will still be in the same place he is-and you can do it without him and be working on the only person in this M you have control over-you.

That can't be a bad thing.
He says he is willing to do MC, but won't commit to a date/time. He says he wants it to be over, but then agrees to MC. I think he's just as confused as I am right now! But he seems to have his mind made up that he is done here, and I just can't stop fighting for it.
In the meantime, how does everyone feel about checking up on him/snooping to figure out if there is a RA going on? He is suddenly keeping his computer and cell phone permanently attached to his body and then was staying out all night last week?
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/06/07 07:59 PM
I don't know about snooping, although his behavior is suspicious but I think his waffling is a good sign. Maybe you can approach the phone thing as a
"let's give it one last try and then, you will be able to decide..."

Just a suggestion.....
TforC,

I think you might want to do some checking to see if he is having an affair. However, in my time here I have seen many people especially men, that have felt that their W's affair was a personal condemnation of them as men and husbands. I would also guess that since you felt lonely and not loved and he travels so much he may feel he cannot give you what you need. But, even more than that, I have heard it said here that divorce allows them to start over.

I realize you don't want the divorce to happen. But, also realize that you had the A with his best friend, and OM's W knows of it. Thus it is likely that many of his friends and acquaintances are aware of your A or he feels they are. Now the issue is how does he look in their eyes? You could rightly point out that what others think is not an issue.

But, the man just lost his best friend (you) and he lost his closest male friend OM, so how he looks to others may be more important that usual.

I do hope you call the Harley's even if he will not be around. They are very good and they can offer you insights and approaches that can be very useful to you.

Hang in there, he is in a period of flux. If you plan A him, speak kindly to him, and use the power of touch, this may will turn around. I guess I should mention touch. Women do it all the time to one another, but men don't often allow contact with another person. Therefore, when you put your hand on his, or on his arm as you talk to him, it WILL have an affect on him. He may pull away because he understands the affect your touch has, yes it is positive, but it may make him feel vulnerable.

Give the Harley's a call. I think they can offer you more than we can here.

God Bless,

JL
Well, last night he told me he's been concerned that he's making the wrong decision by leaving, but feels like leaving is the only way to regain his manhood. I understand this, but doesn't it take more of a man to stand up and face his problems head on than to turn and run away? He agreed to phone counseling with the Harleys ... let's see if he can commit to a date/time now. He did cuddle up to me in bed this morning, something he's usually been fighting against doing. I also picked up "Marriage Fitness" on my way home last night and he actually scanned the book and we did one of the questionnaires! I told him the Harley questionnaires were better and he said maybe we could do one another night soon!

I don't want to get my hopes up too high, but these all seem like pretty good signs right?
Posted By: johnstwin Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/07/07 04:59 PM
It's definitely a good sign that he is willing to do phone counseling with the Harleys-they are the experts in this area.

Have you heard of the book Respect and Love? The main thing men need is respect from their wives. I'm sure your A has been a huge slap in the face to him.

That book recommends you write a letter to him letting him know what you respect about him. I'd recommend reading the book first and getting some input from BH's on this forum to see if that would be a good idea right now.

It's just a suggestion from my little world and not being a man, I may be off base. Any one else?
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/07/07 04:59 PM
Sounds good TFC!At least it is a step forward!Baby steps!I haven't even heard from my H in almost a week!I am feeling very discouraged!
Don't be too discouraged jk ... remember my H didn't come home 2 nights in a row!?! Hang in there and know that if you need to talk, just let me know - we can set up our own little thread here or email. I know what you're going through and it is rough!
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Have you heard of the book Respect and Love? The main thing men need is respect from their wives. I'm sure your A has been a huge slap in the face to him.

That book recommends you write a letter to him letting him know what you respect about him. I'd recommend reading the book first and getting some input from BH's on this forum to see if that would be a good idea right now.

It's just a suggestion from my little world and not being a man, I may be off base. Any one else?

Great idea! I'll go get it today ... Any BHs have input on getting a letter like this? Should I post this separate from this thread?
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/07/07 05:11 PM
Sometimes I just feel like giving up!I have no idea what he is doing,but he obviously is not missing me!He seems to be avoiding everything completely!He hasn't even brought me my mail or called about it!I don't know what to think anymore!I just miss him so much!
jk - I started a post in In Recovery for us ... FWW recovery/vent journal.
So, it seems as though my H has told 1/2 the free world of my A and everyone wants to weigh in on what he should do. I've explained to him that others can only tell him what THEY would do ... but THEY are not HIM! B/c everyone is saying "I can't believe you're still living with her", "You're leaving her right?", and "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" he feels like that is his only option. IMO if he hadn't told everyone he talked to, he could make up his mind on his own and not feel obligated to "be a man" and "just leave". He said to me that he feels that he will be more of a man by leaving. What I wanted to say to him is that it takes more of a man to face his problems head on, rather than run away. I figured that would come out wrong though, so I bit my tongue. He questions whether leaving is the right decision ... shouldn't HE make that decision, instead of everyone else???
Posted By: eav1967 Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/08/07 02:37 AM
have you tried showing him RESPECT by telling him that you are more than willing to talk to these people and admit your mistake to them.....and to tell them for yourselves how sorry you are and your hope that your H will give you another chance?

this would let him save face

what you did has humiliated him....to staying a marriage with you while others think he's a fool....that's even more humiliation

instead of trying to convince him otherwise.....accept that this is how he feels and most men would feel this way

and take steps then to address the issue

another thought....offer to sign a "post-nuptual agreement" stating that if you commit adultry again, you will grant a divorce to him with the majority of your assests going to him

another gesture to show your sincere intentions and to help him save face
I have hidden out for the most part. I have spoken to a couple of people that know and told them how sorry I am and how I hope that I can somehow repair the damage I've done to this M. A post-nup is a great idea though! I hadn't thought of that.

I want to schedule an appt with the Harleys for tomorrow, but he just informed me that he may not come home tonight. This is getting out of hand and I just don't know what to do!

Anyone have ideas on getting him to come home tonight?
Posted By: techie Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/08/07 07:03 PM
First, before I forget.. you cant "make" him come home.
you can only make it comfortable and desirable for him to do so.
[eg: look back on what he has said his ENs are, or take your best guess at what they are, and try to do your utmost to somehow make him an "offer he cant refuse" for the evening <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. not a "deal", where he has to do something in return. just offer him something(s) you can do/say/... for him at home, that wouldnt be possible elsewhere]



now...

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He said to me that he feels that he will be more of a man by leaving. What I wanted to say to him is that it takes more of a man to face his problems head on, rather than run away. I figured that would come out wrong though, so I bit my tongue

probably for the best!

speaking as a man, I will tell you, that before I started reading here, I was of the opinion that a marriage, once hacked away by infidelity, could never be salvaged into a true marriage again.

My guess is that is what you are up against.
He probably believes that you are untrustworthy, and he can never trust you again, PLUS he feels there should be some kind of consequences for your betrayal of him.

the very LAST thing you should ever want to do, is tell him something like, "A real man would fight for his marriage".

i think that you need to be consistent and unwavering, in showing that

1. you never ever want to do this to him again
2. you deeply regret the hurt that you caused to him
3. other people have overcome the horrible scars of adultery..and though it would take time, and effort... it can be done, and result in an even better marriage than you have had before.
4. you still love him.
(but go easy on this one, because he's not going to believe it at first. saying it too frequently, will make him filter it out from then on.)

you MIGHT suggest that he start talking to people who have had actual experience with this sort of thing, rather than random bystanders.

most of all, I think he needs to know within himself, that things can be good again between you. But you cant just armwrestle him into agreement on that. you have to show him facts,and let him think about them on his own time.
I knew it was right to bite my tongue on that one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am definitely doing those things. I think I mentioned before, but maybe not, that he asked me to quit saying "I love you". Although I occasionally slip and say it, it has been more important to SHOW that I love him by my actions. He has commented on what a good person I have become through IC and sees that I am committed to keeping up the self-improvements. He has agreed to MC with the Harleys, but won't commit to a time/date. I get that he feels the need to punish me and that what I did hurt in many ways. But I feel like though he says things like "I'm questioning whether leaving is the right decision" and agreeing to MC, his actions are saying otherwise.

I can't stop fighting for this M ... as long as we're still living together (and probably after) I will keep up my fight for reconciliation. I just feel like I am doing everything and still hitting a brick wall.
We just had a nice lunch together ... no talk of the A, D, or R. It was just a nice, pleasant lunch and then we ran an errand together. I still think he'll choose not to come home tonight though. I suppose I shouldn't ask him to, but I really want to. Ultimately it is his decision.

Any ideas on getting him to commit to a date/time for MC???
Posted By: hurtandmad Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/08/07 07:57 PM
What would happen if you just made the appt? Say honey we have an appt at 10:00 on tuesday. If my ws had done this it would have shown me that he was really interested in making a go at trying. Just me here but I really resent that I am the BS and I am the person who still has to make the appts and coordinate.
I thought about that, but then wondered "what if he just doesn't come home?" Since he's been making a habit of that lately, I don't know when I can schedule something and count on him being there.
Posted By: hurtandmad Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/08/07 09:05 PM
I dont think you can depend on him to make it. If he doesnt show, use the time for yourself and get some good advice on how to deal with this.
Well, you all are right. I can't "make" him come home, and he certainly doesn't feel the need to. He stayed out again last night, even though I asked him to please come home. We have MC with the Harleys next week. I just wish he saw how destructive his behavior is! He says he wants us to be amicable, but then does this sort of thing ... makes it difficult to be nice, but I still am.
I don't want to end my M, but he is not showing any signs of trying to work anything out. He gives signals that he wants to stay sometimes, then pulls these disappearing acts. Then, last night a girl called my cell phone for him! It seemed intentional.

If I wasn't busting my a** to repair this M, I wouldn't be so bold. But I am ... I have done SOOOOOO MUCH to show that I love and him and am willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to repair/rebuild. He just keeps being destructive to the M and the family.

So ...
Question of the day: Do I stay in Plan A (funny I'm plan A-ing and I'm the FWW), or move to Plan B???
Posted By: Jayban Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/09/07 03:51 PM
How long have you been in Plan A? (Sorry if I didn't read enough to catch that)

After 4 months of an emotional BEATING, I decided to go to Plan B. My Plan A was short, but noticeable and effective. My WW and I were separated, which was also another factor.

Here was the mental checklist I went through to decide if I wanted to go to Plan B:
1. If I continue doing this, will I hate / not love my wife TOMORROW?
2. Am I detached and ready for COMPLETE DARKNESS from my WW, and willing to maintain NC with her?
3. Would I describe the situation as "My WW is vacillating between choosing OM or me?"
4. Have I clearly communicated my boundaries, loud enough, long enough, that WW knows them clearly and it will go without saying that when Plan B comes...she will know why?
5. Do I feel that my dignity is so important to me that I will retain it no matter what? If my W comes back and I can have her too, great. If not, I will have my dignity and I can live with that.

Those are some of the things that went through my head in the days leading up to Plan B. If you can apply those and answer yes to all of them, then I'd certainly take a look at exploring Plan B.

I found that when the time came to go to Plan B, I KNEW it was time. Much like when my gut instinct told me my WW was cheating, I KNEW she was. I was right on both counts.
I am so confused ... I don't know that I can answer those questions with a resounding "yes" so I should prob stay in Plan A. I guess all I'm going on is that I don't know how much more of this I can take. I am completely willing to do anything to save our M. He says he wants out, then he says he doesn't know, then he doesn't come home, etc. I realize that a roller coaster ride is part of recovery, but I am beginning to feel like our roller coaster has derailed!
Posted By: Jayban Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/09/07 04:06 PM
Then stay in Plan A today - give some space, be still, and be patient.
He has committed to our MC session with the Harleys on Tues. THANK GOD! I am praying that they can help up out with all this mess and provide some direction/guidance.
Well, he surprised us this morning! He came home from out of town around 9:30 am! This was quite a surprise ... he was supposed to be home in the afternoon long enough to shower & change clothes before heading back out. Instead, DD & I got about 1/2 a day with him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It was nice, except the one moment where he felt the need to reiterate the fact that he is going out with friends on our anniversary. He really went into it saying things like: "you didn't really expect us to celebrate our anniversary did you?" It was hurtful, but I am trying to understand his feelings.

I keep wondering something ... if he really wanted to leave me and get a D, wouldn't he be gone already? Or am I reading WAY too much into us still living together (and sleeping together)?
(bumping - hopeful for advice tonight)
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/11/07 01:32 AM
I wouldn't even think about going into Plan B.

Continue doing what you are doing, being a good wife, mother, making the house a warm and welcoming place, cooking what he likes, etc.

Are you working outside of the home?
yes, 4 days a week and he travels A LOT!
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/11/07 02:45 AM
Well, you are going to have to do something to take care of, nourish and meet the needs of YOU!

Your husband is angry and hurt, and I understand that. But it sounds like your love bank wasn't all that full BEFORE all this started.

I really hope the Harley's can talk some sense into him.

In the meantime, do what you are doing, and please take some time for yourself. Do you have some friends to spend some time with?
My best friend just moved away, but we talk daily. I have other friends, but most of my friends were OUR friends, and now they all know about the A ... it makes me uncomfortable. I have sort of secluded myself since DDay. I mentioned to him today that it is really hard to be going through this with not much time for myself. I would give anything to have the time for a weekly yoga class! He doesn't tell me what he's doing until the last minute, so I never know if I'll need a babysitter. Besides that, I would like for us to spend some time together! He says I am asking A LOT of him to "date" me ...

You are right! I was actually just filling out the EN questionnaire and my needs were really not being met! And now they really aren't! I am at a loss!
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/11/07 03:21 AM
Get a babysitter, and get out. Join a women's support group, yoga, go to the gym, etc. You need to take good care of yourself. Otherwise, this will get too hard. It will also be healthier for the marriage, if you are not depending on him for everything.

The Harley's are really good, and often can turn things around, so let's hope for that.
I have been so used to depending on him and letting my life revolve around him, that this will be a challenge. But I do think you're right. This week I have found myself less patient because I've not felt that good and had NO "me-time".

I am nervous about our session w/ the Harleys ... I am scared to death, to be honest! My H and I are both hoping for some clarity during that appt. I am scared they'll tell me to "give up, he's done". But again that question arises: If he really wanted to leave me, wouldn't he be gone already?
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/11/07 03:46 AM
Don't be worried about the Harleys session. They are GREAT, and always try to save the marriage, unless there is abuse.

Personally, I don't think your husband is going to want a divorce. He is getting all the typical advice from friends who haven't been through this. He is hurt and angry and is acting out.

At first, you are going to need to do the heavy lifting of recovery, and you need to take care of yourself and have some support to do that.
I can handle that. There are the occasional waves of hope that keep me going ... I can handle some "heavy lifting". I will think of it like weight-lifting: the more I do it, the stronger I'll get!
Posted By: Jayban Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/11/07 08:35 PM
I don't think your WS wants a D either - keep up a Plan A, be patient, and keep focusing on "you". "Be still" really fits the situation here! If there is "confusion", I would stay away from the R or M talk as much as possible unless scheduled.

I agree, the Harleys are great! If you can get your spouse to talk to one of them, which you have, it is a great advantage!
I hope he doesn't! I am both excited and nervous about our session tomorrow. Yesterday he actually checked to be sure we were still on for this ... it was nice. I think he's looking forward it, but for the wrong reasons.

When he got back in town yesterday, he ignored me. When we went on a walk together with DD, he wasn't really nice. So I told him that he was being rude and argumentative, probably a LB, but I just couldn't hold it in. After that, I went on about my day. I played with DD, read some of a book, and got DD to help me with dinner. By dinnertime, he was being nice again. Ignoring him seems to be what gets his attention - weird! He ranted and raved about dinner and thanked me for all my work around the house.

But, then after dinner, he went for a run. He did this on Saturday too. HE TOOK THE CELL PHONE WITH HIM! There are several reasons that he would do this:
1. In case of emergency
2. To prevent me from snooping
3. To make calls he doesn't want me to hear

The reason doesn't matter, its just weird and suspicious behavior. Especially after he was going through my cell phone yesterday afternoon ... but I can't go through his! I suppose I understand the need to go through mine - and I am being transparent. But why is what's on his phone such a secret???
Wish us luck ... we have our session with the Harleys tomorrow. We are both so nervous! Any last minute advice?
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/12/07 11:05 PM
3. To make calls he doesn't want me to hear

BINGO!!!!!

I'm very hopeful about your appointment with the Harley's. They are usually able to help very quickly.

As far as him being nicer after you ignored him, I think that is kind of a male thing. Most women are better at talking than men. I've noticed the same thing about my ex. Whenever he wasn't in a good mood, I would just do my own thing, cooking, cleaning, etc.
Haha ... you hit the nail on the head here believer! I'm almost certain he's making phone calls during these "runs" ... we'll see though. We are so nervous about this session - for different reasons, I think. I am hopeful about it though. I am praying that we will get some clarity on what to do next. I think we are both sick of living "on the fence". He asked me what if they tell us its hopeless? I hope that won't happen!
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/13/07 12:57 AM
No, they won't tell you it is hopeless. Be sure to take notes. I hope they spend more time talking to your husband, since he seems to be the one stalling recovery right now. You have already bought into the MB plan.
I am nervous because of the unknown ... I have made myself transparent to him and he knows everything about the A. I have accepted responsibility for what I did and the choices I made, and I am in IC to change those things. I am working really hard to insure that this will NEVER happen again. I guess my nerves are more about him and his "give up" attitude. I can only pray that they can feel that he still loves me and give him hope and encouragement for recovery.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/13/07 01:13 AM
I think he still loves you, and I have lots of hope for the marriage. It is still very early for him. But his actions are not helping at all. Hopefully, the Harleys will help.

Be sure to take notes. I've never done the counseling, but that is what everyone always says.
His actions are not helpful, but he still shows signs of love. Will keep you all posted. Believer, thanks so much for believing in my M ... I've welcomed your encouragement! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Had our 1st session with the Harleys today ... didn't go as I had hoped, but we'll see. My H is totally checked out of this M and I see few signs of hope, but I'm going to keep trying. He at least agreed to do the EN & LB questionnaires. He isn't committed to spending more time alone with me though. He said he's doing this as a last resort and if things get better then great, if not oh well. I just don't see how things can get better if he won't spend time with me!?!
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/14/07 01:27 AM
Oh, don't worry about it. He is still very early in this. But I promise you that he will remember the things he heard, and hopefully he will think and act on them.

Did you get to talk too? What was the advice to you?
I was to take responsibility for my A and make sure that he is aware that it (the A) was no fault of his. We have already had that conversation, but we had it again tonight. We are also to complete the EN & LB questionnaires. He reluctantly agreed.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/14/07 01:49 AM
Well, the EN questionnaire is a start. His top will probably be admiration, honesty and SF, with maybe a little domestic support thrown in.

Have you figured out yours?
Top 4: Affection, SF, Conversation, Honesty

And I think that you are right on target with his!
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/14/07 05:17 AM
TFC,hey girl!Sounds like our H are almost on the same exact timeline although I have no solid evidence against mine!But then again I don't live with him!Anyway,at least yours is putting forth a little effort!Mine isn't even calling!Good luck!
He seems to put forth a false effort - like he's doing all this just to appease me. Then he goes off and calls & text messages this girl over and over and over again. He was even texting her during my private portion of therapy with the Harleys! Then he called her at 1 am and the darn cell phone is on death grip! I can't get to it, so I don't know much ... except the fact that I feel like I'm going crazy!
I know what you mean.

When I was having my affair, the cell phone was my life line to the OW.

My wife could not get within 10 feet of my phone. Guarded it with my life.

Now that she has turned the tables and is having an affair of her own, her phone is hung around her neck, 24/7

It's like a new appendage. Part of her body.

Naturally, it is locked with a password which I was able to reset but in so doing, all the data was deleted. Not much help to my cause at the time.

She has since moved out, so that leaves very little room for cell phone snooping but I managed to get phone records from the company, and sure enough....endless calls and texts to her OM while we were together and ongoing while we were apart.

Revenge is a dish best not served. This has put incredible pressure on the marriage. (what marriage, lol)

I have faith that God will restore us. I suggest you do the same. Pray! This is a scary time and you have a lot of trouble ahead. A lot of painful days coming your way and you need incredible strength to face these monsters.

My situation has been going on for three months and is barely showing signs of improvement. I just exposed to the OMW on Saturday. Counting on God for a miracle now.

As for the therapy. My WW did agree to go counseling with me at one point but her angle was "therapy for acceptance of separation" while mine was "therapy for saving the marriage"

Needless to say, it did not go very well at all! She even met with the OM after the sessions at a location walking distance away from the therapist's office.

Just so you know. Be STRONG!
Yeah - his phone will have to be surgically removed at some point. I really just want to tell him that if he is so "done" and is seeing someone else then he should just go ... but I know that isn't the right choice. I want to fight for it, but it gets harder and harder by the day. I need some encouragement, but he leaves no room for hope these days. And I just found out that he is spending our anniversary with that girl!
Not another thing!?! I don't think I can take anymore! Turns out he has withdrawn $250 from OUR bank account yesterday and today. He brought the other to my attention asking about it, like he didn't know!?! I told him that I hadn't checked the account, so he took out another $250 today!?! But there is no explanation for it? What do I do?
Tonight was interesting ... I was super-nice today and it apparently drove him nuts! I came home and we had pleasant conversation. Then he had to go to work, we talked on the phone on his way. He said a lot of really nice things to me and had me thinking that things could actually get better. Then I checked his IM logs. Not good. The out of town girl and he had quite an interesting conversation! It was entirely inappropriate! So he LIED! 1. He said that he hadn't discussed our M with her ... he did. 2. He said that what's so difficult about my A was what was said in emails, not the physical part - well, his IM to her was certainly comparable! AND ... he is staying with her next week when he goes there. OMG! If he wanted to get even, I think he has.

Every time I think that things can turn around, I find out something like this ...
And why was this not addressed during MC??? I specifically noted his behavior as questionable ... why was his RA behavior not addressed during our session with the Harleys??? I trust that they know what they're doing, but to let this all continue is just insane!
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/15/07 01:30 AM
what is ra?
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/15/07 01:36 AM
I would think they would have discussed it. Are you sure they didn't?
Not certain ... but he didn't leave much out when we talked about the session.

RA = revenge affair
They need to get him to buy into counseling first. If they went right after his behavior, he would be gone. This is lie fishing you know. You have to present the bait just right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there, things change, affairs end, and OPPORTUNTIES present themselves.

God Bless,

JL
Well, it worked ... he actually loved talking with him and said that their methodology is really great. So, he's bought into the therapy, we'll see how next session goes and if he does his homework.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/15/07 01:55 AM
continue your plan a. not just for him but for you too.

during my plan a instead of looking at my h as the enemy/ alien, i saw him as the man i dated, the one i loved to do things for, the one that i wanted to spend all of my time with, the one that i liked to flirt and tease, the one i fell in love with... even though he technically wasnt he kind of still was and he was receptive to it so it kind of worked.
Great idea! I think I can do this! He is flirtatious with me these days, so that has been fun. I find myself getting butterflies in my stomach when he gets close (like we might kiss). These are great signs. It is just hard to let these things override the other stuff that I know. I am going to need some serious inner-strength!
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/15/07 02:08 AM
you find it, its there, you have all the inner strength you need.
We'll see ... I will just Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. Let's all pray that it does some good.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/15/07 02:39 AM
just so you know, i dont do any of this blindly... i Know what is going on, i Know what he is doing and i am protecting myself by not getting butterflies. oh, we still have fun and do things together - spend 15 hours a week Minimum doing fun stuff, etc. i Expect him to come back to me, i Expect him to stop the A, part of me Accepts that it mey not end.
You are much stronger than I ... I have let myself get sick (so to speak) on this roller coaster ride. I never had my A to end my M. I failed to protect myself from being vulnerable. I think his [alleged] RA is out of spite and to see what else is out there. This morning he asked me what I would do if I were in his shoes. I can't answer that, because I'm not him. I suggested that he take some time alone (meaning w/o the influence of his friends and other women) to really think this through. I reminded him that I am willing to do whatever it takes to save our M and that I am working hard to gain the tools that I need to prevent this from ever happening again. Someone said he may be having his [alleged] RA b/c he sees the relationship as over ... if he saw it as over, then he wouldn't still be questioning what to do, would he?
Well, we had a talk tonight. Long story short, I told him that I understand that he doesn't want to work things out and I'll respect his decision. I told him that I am willing to do whatever it takes to work on the M if that is what he wants. So, he is moving out for a while. He needs to decide what he wants. It was very emotional. I'm not sure what will happen. I can only pray that he will come back to me.

So we're separated? And my dog died today ... sad sad sad day.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/16/07 01:11 AM
First of all... as an care taker to three loving labs, you have my sympathy.
As far as your H goes, I am sorry about this. Do not think this needs to be the end though. Let's see what tomorrow brings. When people are hurt and wounded, they say a lot of things... let's see what happens.
It was really hard ... the dog & my H. I am not giving up hope for our M, but this is certainly a stumbling block.
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/16/07 04:37 PM
TFC,I am so sorry!Now we can really relate!Everyone keeps saying don't give up,but it seems to get worse and worse!How can you find strength when there are no steps forward!I am almost positive my H is seeing somebody,or at least talking to somebody cuz he came into my work last night and was talking with one of my girlfriends and she asked him about a wedding he was going to in May where the girl he kissed is going to be and if he was going with her and he said if it happens it happens,if not no big deal!I think that this particular girlfriend knows more than she is letting on,and I sent her a text this morning telling her that I would be really hurt if she knew something and wasn't telling me!I also sent my H a txt reminding him he was a M man and if he wanted to be single or was having an A I deserved to know!No response!I am truly discouraged and feel like giving up!I am so tired of feeling this way!I love my H so much,but he has become someone I no longer know and nothing I do seems to get through to him!
I feel that way too! I just found out that my H is taking his new "friend" to a game tonight ... something he has NEVER done with me. Actually, he was supposed to take me & DD to this game. DD said this morning "I hate when Daddy spends the night out. He cares more about his job and his friends than being at home with his wife and daughter." Nice. Obviously we haven't told her. We told her that Daddy is traveling a lot now - which isn't far off base.

We met for breakfast this morning. Really hard to be sweet when I know he's seeing his "friend" every day! I think he even spent the night with her last night, but I suppose I'll never know. I HATE THIS! I still haven't told him about the phone records or IM log that I have.

I just don't know what to do. What are appropriate boundaries while separated?
jmwc95 -

You recommended to jks to call the OW and let her know that her H is still having SF with her ... would you recommend this for my situation as well??? He just left yesterday, but we have been having SF all along. I also found out that she is flaunting her "friendship" with my H around to our mutual friends. Most are being supportive of him, but one let me know what was going on. What do you suggest?
i am so distraught right now ... i wish i could see my IC today
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/16/07 11:38 PM
Quote
I still haven't told him about the phone records or IM log that I have.

I just don't know what to do. What are appropriate boundaries while separated?


WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR??? Tell him.

Are you already separated? If so, you have no legal right to check on anything not in your name. If he has chosen to leave and be separated, you must respect his right to do so. Hopefully he will return to his family... but right now.. work on keeping you and your daughter mentally healthy.
I didn't tell him because he chose to leave. We aren't legally separated, but he left the house. Everything is in my name, but I haven't checked up on him since he left yesterday. He chose to leave when I gave him the opportunity - obviously that is what he wanted. But now he says he's coming home on Sunday and spending the night and leaving on Monday. This is why I asked about boundaries ...
I did confront him on another issue today. I found out from several people that he is broadcasting our situation all over town (he is very well-known here). I told him that several people had informed me of him announcing it in public and that I was really hurt that he chose to handle things that way. He didn't deny it, but got defensive (he does that when he knows he's wrong about something). He asked who? I told him that it didn't really matter WHO; when I hear it from multiple people (that aren't connected to one another) I can assume that this is the case. He wouldn't apologize, not that I expected him to. Things seem to be getting worse by the moment.
Anyone have some help on setting the boundaries of this "separation"?

Do I expose his EA (possibly PA too)?

What should my next step be to try to save my M?
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 02:42 AM
Sorry you are having such a hard time. I have no idea what you can do, so not much help here.

I suppose that you can work the MB plan of exposure. That would include telling close friends, family, and anyone else that would have some influence on him.

I think you are going to have to be very strong here. You are going to have to be the one who establishes the boundaries. That is a little bit different than the usual around here.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 03:08 AM
see, the problem with all of this is, he has the right to walk away due to your A. I do not think he is going about it in an honorable way, but you really are in a tough place right now. I think all you can do is set personal boundaries. I don't see you getting a whole lot of support by exposing...I think most will side with him. I am sorry this is so hard on you.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 03:14 AM
First time posting to you. Not a pro by any means but finished reading the threads. Wow - what a mess this has become. I feel for your DD for her parent's foolishness.

Do you think exposing will look foolish now after you having an affair? If the targets know about your A - the impact will not be as strong. Might even be downplayed as a revenge affair that you deserved.

From what I read, the affair only ended after the OMW found out about it. You didnt end it on your accord. You want your H now b/c OM is not around perhaps? thats what I would be processing anyway.

I have no good advice and I am sorry. I read the pain but I try to imagine being in your H shoes and I might move on - who needs this chaoes and pain? There are just too many fish in the sea. H was thrown to the curb by the A so freedom and new GF may sound like a good alternative.

I think you have a good heart and trying to your best to repair the damage. I think I would make a call to the pros like Harleys. This situation is way too dynamic and treacherous to follow a standard script.
Yeah - I am feeling like a lost cause right now. I realize that he has the choice to leave, which is why I gave him that option. With regard to separation and his A: do I treat things differently b/c I was WW before he became WH? (I agree that I won't get too much help with exposure.) I just can't enable him to have his cake and eat it too anymore ... he wouldn't have allowed that with me.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 03:21 AM
set your personal boundries regarding cake eating. I see mothing else you can do but control your own actions.
Today is our anniversary ... not a good day. Checked the bank account this morning - He's been taking money out left and right, so I think I should transfer what's mine into a separate account so I can pay our bills without worrying about anything. Not sure, maybe I am too emotional today?
Posted By: LostBoy68 Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 04:00 PM
I don't have anything to add, but I wanted to send you some emotional support on this difficult day.

((((((((((TFC)))))))))

Stay focused on you and your DD today. I really hope that you and your WH? can pull through this and find happiness again someday.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 04:05 PM
Quote
Today is our anniversary ... not a good day. Checked the bank account this morning - He's been taking money out left and right, so I think I should transfer what's mine into a separate account so I can pay our bills without worrying about anything. Not sure, maybe I am too emotional today?

HERE [color:"red"] <~~~ LINK [/color]

Part of Plan A is a stick

PLEASE read under the "stick" about taking necessary financial precautions DURING plan A

emotional decisions will not serve you well

which is WHY we recommend following a PLAN ... not your emotional rollercoaster

if you do NOT develop and follow a PLAN ... there is not much anyone here can do for you other than to send cyber ((( hugs))) as your marriage circles the drain

Pep
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 04:16 PM
I would definitely get the money. I didn't and my ex blew it ALL, and had nothing to show for it.
LostBoy - thanks for the support, I def need it today.

Pep - you are always tough, but right ... I just haven't figured out which Plan I need to initiate. (After reading that, I think I will stick in Plan A for a bit.)

Believer - this was my thought too, especially since he is already blowing it (and prob on this OW).

So, he called and told me that he had talked to his mom and agreed for us to have dinner with his parents tomorrow to "celebrate our anniversary" and asked that I pretend that everything is ok (they don't know yet). I'm unsure about doing this, but I guess there is no harm in it? He is coming over tomorrow to spend time with DD, I asked if he was leaving after dinner. He said he hadn't really thought about it, but could he at least stay until she goes to bed. I told him that would be fine. He then mentioned staying here ... I think he needs to decide if we are separated or not. If so, he needs to leave tomorrow. If not, he can stay but must commit to working on the M. Am I on target here or am I being too harsh since I am FWW???
Boundaries for tomorrow ... I need to know if this is acceptable:

1. If I have to fake it, you have to fake it - this means you will need wear your wedding ring at dinner. Otherwise you can go to dinner on your own and tell your parents.
2. Your time here with DD will be spent doing things with her, not relaxing. If you didn't get enough sleep, that is your problem.
3. You will not answer your phone or respond to text messages or emails while here. Go ahead and tell OW that you will be with your daughter tomorrow and not to interrupt that time. (Keep in mind - this would be his 1st awareness that I know about OW.)
4. After DD goes to bed we will need re-discuss our separation - we need to have specific terms if this is what you want.
5. If you are still set on separation, then you will need to take your things with you when you leave. I will tell DD in the morning that you had to get to work early and you can still pick her up after school.

If and ONLY if you agree to these terms, you may come over at 12:00 PM tomorrow. There is no negotiating these boundaries and no further discussion regarding them will take place.

Sound ok? Too harsh?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 05:55 PM
much too harsh.
Ok - needs more kindness and love. Are the boundaries appropriate or unrealistic?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 06:06 PM
Quote
2. Your time here with DD will be spent doing things with her, not relaxing. If you didn't get enough sleep, that is your problem.


Is that YOUR house? No. It is both of your house and also both of your daughter. You have no right to tell him what he can and cannot do in his own house or with his own daughter. Until you have a LEGAL separation you cannot restrict his access to the house and based on your actions... YOU should never restrict his access to his child.


Quote
If you are still set on separation, then you will need to take your things with you when you leave. I will tell DD in the morning that you had to get to work early and you can still pick her up after school.


Again... not your call as to what happens in your jointly owned house.


Quote
After DD goes to bed we will need re-discuss our separation - we need to have specific terms if this is what you want.


2 X 4 incoming here. Where do you get off being so demanding?


PERSONAL Boundaries....

Things like, I will not have SF with you if you are engaging in that act with anyone else.
I will not share a bed with you until you move back home.
I will not attend family functions and pretend that everything is okay when it is not.

etc.

Yours were not personal boundaries... they were demands and really you are not in a place that you can demand anything except for respect of your boundaries.

MEDC
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 06:07 PM
Quote
Are the boundaries appropriate or unrealistic?


Inappropriate as noted above.
Ok ... I see your point. I was trying to establish boundaries for the separation and his cake-eating, but you are right ... these are demands. I have no right to tell him what he can/cannot do with DD - I should know better. I can't kick him out and I do not want to be separated, but he does. Why does he want to stay here when we have agreed that if HE wants to be separated HE will leave? I WANT to work on the M, he doesn't. What's the point in being separated if we are living together?
So, "I" statements, not demands:

Quote
Things like, I will not have SF with you if you are engaging in that act with anyone else.
... This is a good one, but I don't know if he is and I don't think I can trust him to tell me the truth. I guess that means no SF - I'll have to let that EN go unmet for a while.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 06:18 PM
While YOU should enforce your personal boundaries... you should be thankful that he is willing to spend some time with you. This does not mean you have to be a doormat or engage in risky sexual behavior though.
You also need to keep in mind that while he is being kind about this right now... he ceratinly has the option of taking his daughter with him when he goes.... keep that in mind when you are dealing with him concerning your child. Do what is in her best interests right now and that means spending time with her father and not saying anything bad about him. I don't remember how old your daughter is... but if it is age appropriate you might want to let her know that you acted in a way that hurt daddy and that he is trying to cope with that. Kids need to know what is going on and not be lied to about things.
I have been very good about remaining positive about Daddy ... he is a great dad, so there is no need to say anything negative.

As always, M, I appreciate your reality-checks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 06:21 PM
Quote
This is a good one, but I don't know if he is and I don't think I can trust him to tell me the truth.


Were you enaging in SF with your H during your affair? Have you been checked for STD's? Did you ever have sex with the OM and your H in the same day? Does your H know the facts?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 06:23 PM
Quote
As always, M, I appreciate your reality-checks!


Good, i am glad you take them in the spirit in which they are intended. I think you are making great strides on you... now we have to hope your H comes around.
Quote
Were you enaging in SF with your H during your affair? Have you been checked for STD's? Did you ever have sex with the OM and your H in the same day? Does your H know the facts?

H knows the facts ... I had sex with OM 2x, never within same day as H. I was immediately checked for STDs (this was a condition for H to continue to have sex with me) and was negative. IF he decides to come back to the M, this will prob be a condition for me as well. So in the meantime, no SF. My only concern with this is that if he hasn't had SF with OW yet, this will push him to do so. I know, I know ... I have no control over his actions, only my own.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 08:00 PM
I agree with MEDC.

Personally I would NOT spend my anniversary with in-laws pretending that everything was fine.
Yeah ... I am still iffy on this one. On one hand, it is a chance for him to see me as the woman he might consider coming home to - the woman his family loves and a reminder of how things could be. On the other, it seems ridiculous!

I just moved my money out of the bank account. He has no explanation for the withdrawals and has been spending money out at bars. I decided that I am not paying for his party-time. Consider it a personal and financial boundary.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 09:10 PM
I think you are going to have to sit down and decide what you want in your life. You made a horrible mistake, and things suck right now. It is like a row of dominoes falling.

Even though you are the FWW, I think you can have boundaries of what you will allow to happen to your family.
I want to save my M, but am finding it difficult to Plan A while he is out on the town with his OW. It seems to get worse each moment. What can I do to pull it together, avoid his cake-eating, set boundaries for myself, and try to save my M? I feel like I have gotten off course of my R and need to find a way back.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 09:24 PM
Like the airlines say - you have to pull down your own oxygen mask first, before you can even think about saving anything.

Figure out why you chose to have an affair. Figure out what was wrong in your marriage.

I forget, are you working outside the home?
I figured out all that ... now I need to re-focus on saving my M. I've gotten caught up in the roller coaster rather than focusing on a PLAN (like Pep said). So now I need to establish my plan (and stick to it).

I do work outside the home 4 days/week. And he travels A LOT. Why do you ask?
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 09:39 PM
Just curious. A wife who is working has more options than a SAHM, sadly.

So what did you figure out about the why?
I didn't protect and save my weaknesses for my H. At the time I explained away my choices by using the excuses of being lonely and starved for affection. Now I recognize that I adjusted my moral standards to accommodate my selfish desires. I have done extensive work on myself.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 10:06 PM
So your husband met all of your needs and was a good guy before your affair, and NOW he has gone a little crazy?

Or were there serious problems before?
Serious problems before ... I am just taking responsibility for my part. He failed to meet MOST of my ENs for the last several years. But I could have handled it better.

We did 1 session w/ the Harleys. Then I found out more about the extent of the "friendship" with this OW and gave him the option for separation. He chose to go (sort of - most of his stuff is still here). I don't think I can sit at dinner w/ the in-laws and pretend everything is ok, I don't know.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 11:11 PM
Yep, you could have handled it better, that is for sure. But if he stops contact with the OW, and agrees that he wants to stay married, the problems are still there.

I think you are going to have to have firm boundaries. It might not seem right to some, since you strayed too. But I think one of you needs to start fighting for your family, and you are the one who is posting.

I would let him know that, anniversary or not, you don't care to pretend that everything is fine anymore.
What do I do about OW? Some think I shouldn't expose, some think I should ... I want him to choose to come back on his own, not because he felt like he had to.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 11:24 PM
You have no control over OW, or what he decides to do. I would EXPOSE. Of course, that will probably end up shedding some light on your affair also. Are you ready for that?

I just think one of you need to take a stand for the marriage.
Seems like everyone in town knows about mine (except his parents) ... I think he should have dinner alone with his parents tomorrow and go ahead and let them know. I can't fake it, I just can't. Especially knowing he is IN an A, mine ended the moment he found out b/c I wanted to save my M - not that that makes it any better.
I want to take a stand for the M, but don't know how. I have come up with the things we need to do IF he chooses this M (putting the cart before the horse), but not separation/right now. I am at a loss of what my next step should be ...
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/17/07 11:55 PM
Well, I am divorced. So take this with a grain of salt. I would talk to him, or maybe write a letter. I would tell him that I made a terrible mistake, but want my marriage and family. I would explain that you don't blame him finding another woman, but your family deserves better from the two of you. Tell him that if he can't forgive, to go for it, that he is free to do what he wants, but you hope that he will choose his family.
This I can do. Let's hope I can do it calmly and without waterworks. This way too, I can say what I want, what I'm willing to do, that I know about OW ... then leave the decision-making to him.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 12:07 AM
Run it by some of the others here. I'm divorced, so may not give the best advice. I just don't see anything good coming with him running wild. I know that he is hurt, and that he has a right to be. But it will take the two of you to turn this around.
I agree ... the whole point of separation was for him to take some time to think about things and make a decision. NOT to run all over town, spend all our money, get drunk, announce what I did, and screw some new bimbo. He needs to start handling this like an adult, but I think anything I say will not be taken so well ...
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:14 AM
could be that he wants to be with someone else now. In all reality, it is the most healthy thing to do when a partner cheats on you... staying isn't really great for most(even those that have made the decision to saty married are frequently unhappy with that choice)...but he DOES have the incentive to also work things out for your daughters sake. For that reason, I really think he should try and forgive you.
I think exposure will backfire because now that he is living on his own and you cheated... most people will not agree that what he is doing is wrong. Heck, I have been cheated on and hate WS... but I can tell you that if I were married and made the decision to leave my wife after she cheated that I would not consider myself married and cheating if I chose to start dating again. I would just be waiting for divorce papers. Doesn't sound like that is where your H is at... so this is really a gray area. But I do believe that exposure will create an environment that gives him MORE support for what he is doing instead of less. I would be careful with this.

MEDC
I have wavered on this a great deal. All of his friends are enablers ... they encourage him to badmouth me, get drunk, spend money, stay out all night, and now prob be with this chick. Most people, because of his public profile, will do whatever they think he wants them to do. He has always loved that I will stand up to him and tell him he's being an a**. I think if I say something about his behavior though, it will fall on deaf ears. I almost think he NEEDS to go through this to make his decision ...

I am upset that he won't answer the phone when DD calls. He knows its not me. What is more important than taking a minute to talk to his daughter?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:29 AM
My friends are NOT enablers and I can tell you that they would be in full support of me if I started dating after moving out on a cheating spouse. I would be very careful how you proceed on the exposure thing... and if you decide to do it, do it very selectively.

MEDC
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:32 AM
Quote
I am upset that he won't answer the phone when DD calls. He knows its not me. What is more important than taking a minute to talk to his daughter?


YOu really need to stop judging him... perhaps he is busy or unavailable...perhaps he is feeling low. You are VERY judgemental for someone that just had an A. This is a concern to me. Relax on your H... HE has had his life ripped out from under him and must be reeling right now. YOu should be worried and concerned for him...and stop judging him so much.

MEDC
I don't think exposure will do any good, to be perfectly honest. The only people he would normally take advice from are friends that have stayed friends with me. Now he won't listen to them because they talk to me too. These people have encouraged him to go home early in the evening, slow down on the drinking, and to try to work things out with me. They truly care about what is best for our family, not just one or the other of us. Therefore, the only person to expose to would be him ... which still does me no good b/c he'll deny, deny, deny.
Posted By: believer Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:37 AM
"could be that he wants to be with someone else now. In all reality, it is the most healthy thing to do when a partner cheats on you..."

Wow MEDC, can't believe you wrote that. The man has a child and is still married. IF he wants to end the marriage, okay. But dating now, and staying out all night with another woman is wrong.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:39 AM
You can't expose to him. That makes no sense as HE knows what he is doing. Exposure is for those in his life that are close or could influence a change.


You should confront him with the evidence if you haven't done so yet.
It is still considered cheating, since we are still married. And I don't think its the "healthy thing to do". I understand the desire for a revenge A, but wouldn't call it "healthy". Not taking his daughter's phone calls isn't healthy either. I am getting sick of sticking up for him every time he disappoints her.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:46 AM
Yes, B, I know... that is why I included the next sentence about his family and daughter. I do believe that it is very healthy to walk away from someone that does this to you...but having children complicates things and gives a reason to stay and fix things.
But in reality... and this is something I have read about and talked with my IC about... a person that has the strength to walk away after such an assault is most likely making the most healthy decision for them. Again, I will quote that study that I have mentioned here many times that 75% of those that were cheated on and stayed married are very unhappy in their M and would make the decision to leave if faced with that choice again. There have also been polls here that have said the same thing... that if people knew (some people) what recovery entailed, they would choose to not go through it.
As far as still being married.... I place NO significance on the Gov't's role in M. If a person is cheated on and wishes to divorce... and they reside serparate from their STBX, I have no problem with them dating. Others here feel otherwise, but that is my take on things.

But I do think, as I have said many times here, that he is not acting properly given the circumstances of this situation.
Quote
YOu really need to stop judging him... perhaps he is busy or unavailable...perhaps he is feeling low. You are VERY judgemental for someone that just had an A. This is a concern to me. Relax on your H... HE has had his life ripped out from under him and must be reeling right now. YOu should be worried and concerned for him...and stop judging him so much.

MEDC

Being a good parent is a #1 priority whether one has had his life ripped out from under him or not. I know that he is at a St. Patty's Day event at a local bar, which is why I am so upset that he isn't taking her calls. Drinking with your pals and/or OW is not more important than taking your DD's calls. Sorry if that comes across as judgmental, but those are just my standards for being a parent NO MATTER WHAT else is going on in one's life.
Quote
As far as still being married.... I place NO significance on the Gov't's role in M. If a person is cheated on and wishes to divorce... and they reside serparate from their STBX, I have no problem with them dating. Others here feel otherwise, but that is my take on things.

But I do think, as I have said many times here, that he is not acting properly given the circumstances of this situation.

Thank you for agreeing that he is acting inappropriately. As far as the M/separation comment - he has not officially moved out. He took a couple of things with him for the weekend, but almost everything is still here - including his beloved laptop. "Moved out" hardly describes our situation.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:51 AM
And what were your standards as a parent when you were screwing around with the OM ripping your family apart?

Sorry... but I have a child of my own and a foster child... I have full custody and I wouldn't need anyone...anyone... telling me that I was a bad aprent because I didn't take a call when SHE thought I should. And if you KNOW he is at an event... why are you having him bothered with calls while he is out with friends?

And while you consider it cheating... I would venture a guess that the vast majority of society would not consider a separated person from a partner that cheated on them to be cheating if they chose to date. That is my opinion and while I respect your right to yours, I do not agree with it.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:53 AM
If he is not living there... residing there... he has moved out. His clothes and belongings may still reside there... but if he is sleeping elsewhere... he is moved out.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 01:54 AM
If he has plans on coming back after the weekend, I misread some of your earlier comments about him moving out. I am pretty sure you said he moved out.
I NEVER neglected my DD during my A. I made poor choices, yes. But I never made her feel like I didn't want to spend time with her or talk to her. He has NEVER not answered his phone while out before - she has always called to tell him "good night" at 8:30pm on weekends, 7:45pm on weeknights. We will just agree to disagree on the cheating issue.

I am not trying to come across as pompous or self-righteous. I take full responsibility for the damage that I caused and am working on repairing it and changing the things I need to about myself. I now expect him to do the same - with or without me.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 02:01 AM
Quote
I didn't tell him because he chose to leave. We aren't legally separated, but he left the house. Everything is in my name, but I haven't checked up on him since he left yesterday. He chose to leave when I gave him the opportunity - obviously that is what he wanted. But now he says he's coming home on Sunday and spending the night and leaving on Monday. This is why I asked about boundaries ...


This is where I got that from.



Quote
I NEVER neglected my DD during my A.


You have to be joking right? The ultimate NEGLECT that a parent can perpetrate on a child is an A! YOU really need to do a thought check if you can defend your lack of neglect during your A and state that your H is neglecting her tonight because he is out with friends. Please forgive this... but this has to be one of the foggiest things I have ever read on this site.
He said he was moving out, but has left it all very open-ended. He wants to spend the night here tomorrow, which will prob lead to Mon, Tues, and Wed too. He literally took enough clothes for the weekend and his dop-kit. Hence my confusion ...

I guess I should just start going with the flow, quit worrying about every little detail. He'll make his decision when he wants to.
Quote
You have to be joking right? The ultimate NEGLECT that a parent can perpetrate on a child is an A! YOU really need to do a thought check if you can defend your lack of neglect during your A and state that your H is neglecting her tonight because he is out with friends. Please forgive this... but this has to be one of the foggiest things I have ever read on this site.

I am not in fog here ... I meant that I didn't neglect her day-to-day activities and interactions with me, didn't neglect her routine. I realize that I neglected her choice to a happy family future by my choices, and I am sickened by it. I am simply referring to daily norms for her. His sudden change to not taking calls has upset her - tonight is not the 1st occurrence this week! She is too young to understand what is going on here, so the day-to-day normalcy is important to keep until definite plans are made for the future of our M.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 02:15 AM
well, I would suggest that instead of judging him, you let your daughter know that her dad is out and that hse should speak to him about the importance of being able to say goodnight to him. Frankly though... this will most likely disappear once you two are apart for good (if that is what happens). While the non custodial parent should make every effort to continue to keep in touch everyday... sometimes that is not possible for a host of reasons. It is a consequence of the circumstances of an A. When I was the non custodial parent, I talked to my son about 4-5 times a week (when he wasn't with me). That worked out fine for everyone. If your daughter needs to speak to him more, she should communicate that to him.

And as for the above post... he day to day routine and activities are also impacted by an A. So, yes, even her daily norms have been forever impacted.... even if you would be available for calls while you were with the OM.
Point taken. Let's hope he chooses to remain a big part of her life (as he has been) should he not choose our M. If not, he isn't the man I thought he was. (Please keep in mind that because he travels all the time, we have a phone-call routine established. She thinks Daddy is traveling right now, so this routine should be as usual, no matter how much he hates me.) She needs to be #1 priority right now. Like I said before, maybe he just needs to go through this in order to figure everything out.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 02:30 AM
Quote
If not, he isn't the man I thought he was.


Nothing personal against you... since I don't know you it can't be personal... but I have to tell you... that while I am pulling for you... you make the most judgemental comments since YOU are the one that has ripped your family apart. So, are you not the woman and mother he thought you were? By your standards, you can't be. You really need to lighten up on this man. If I were him reading your words, I would NEVER take you back.
Now... find a way to lighten up on him... he is the wounded person here... you are the one with the smoking gun in your hand. Find ways for him to be involved that are comfortable for him MOVING FORWARD. What happened pre A really is insignificant now... all the rules have been changed.
I sincerely hope that if you two divorce (which I hope NEVER happens) that he files for 1/2 custody. I think it is in her best interests to see her dad as much as she sees you. This also removes the issue of support which can stick in the craw of a BS at times.
Anyway, I really hope you two work things out. I will check back from time to time to see how you are doing. I hope for the sake of your daughter that you both can start putting her first in your lives. SHE, above everyone else here, deserves much more than her parents have given her to date.

Good luck,

MEDC
Wow. I must say that I take this pretty hard, but I understand where you are coming from. Maybe I come across as a cold-hearted B in writing, but I am really not. I have a great deal of compassion for him, and am concerned about the path he is choosing for himself right now. I have never once forgotten that I am this cause of all this. I accept that I was obviously not the woman he thought I was, which is why I am working so hard on becoming an even better woman than the one he once fell in love with. I am really not trying to be mean or judgmental. Maybe I need to re-focus my energy back to working on myself, being a good mom to DD; and let whatever happens with the M happen on its own course and time frame.
Posted By: Regrouping Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 11:24 AM
TFC,
Hi I just read your thread. I applaud your decision to end all contact with OM for life when exposed and to choose the health and happiness of your family over the addiction of your affair. I am sure that is a tough choice and one that you need to repeat every day. That choice is probably made tougher by the actions your BH is making since then.

I too am a BH. I would tend to agree with MEDC though that your BH is still trying to decide what he wants to do with your M. The pain and feeling of rejection that your H feels as a result of your actions is immense. Just like a wounded animal will lash out at anything that comes near, your BH's desire for "revenge" will cloud his judgement. My FWW has really been doing everything perfectly by the book, and I truly appreciate her efforts, her actions that she is taking to help repair our marriage. It has been about 6 weeks since I exposed and she agreed to NC, but I still think about divorce or other ways to "payback" her betrayal multiple times every day. I have been able to not act on any of those negative thoughts. Now if she was constantly using Disrespectful Judgements, like, "BH should take call to say goodnight to DD" or "BH should not go out drinking with his buddies to forget about his life's problems for a little while," I don't know that I could resist.

Given how wounded a BH psyche is, I would expect some pretty bizarre behavior from your BH. One thing that tends to remain though is a desire to be a MAN and protect your family. Maybe you can change how your present the information to your BH: "DD really missed having you tuck her in. DD said she loves how BH makes sure her room has no monsters in it at bedtime." or "TFC really missed having BH tuck me in too, TFC misses falling asleep in BH's arms." or "TFC cannot believe how stupid it was to jeopardize having BH as the head of this family, DD and TFC need the feeling of safety that we have with BH to kissing us goodnight."

You are going to need to work very hard to make sure that BH feels loved, respected and safe to invest his heart with you again. Right now he does not feel those things and it is manifest by the decisions hen is making.
Thank you for your kind advice. I will certainly take it to heart and use it. I hope that both you and MEDC realize that I am not saying those things TO him ... I haven't called him since he left other than to return his calls, and at that time we discuss family business and say "have a good day". I am still trying to Plan A him - this is more of a journal for me, if you will, not a play book. I have chosen this as the place to write down my thoughts, fears, frustrations, loves, cares, concerns, and happenings and to seek advice on them. I have been so fortunate to have the people here reach out and understand what I am going through and to also offer advice from the other side.

Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 03:21 PM
Well, I wasn't sure if you were saying those things or not. But while I think it is okay to vent, it is also important to control those feelings because eventually or subconsciously your feelings will be made known through your actions or attitude.

I sincerely am in your corner on this. It may not seem like it at times due to my calling you on certain behaviors or words... but I do hope your family stays intact. I think your H is a very wounded person right now and feel bad for him...it almost seems like he is in self destruct mode with certain things. Because we are only getting one side of things here, it is tough to tell the depth of his drinking or his state of mind. I do believe that if he has just made the decision that he doesn't want to be married to someone that would do that to him, that he has a right to make that call for his own mental well being. But I would hope that he decides that his daughter growing up in an intact family would be enough to motivate him exploring recovery.
It would be great if you could get him to come here and talk to some of us BS that have been in his shoes. We could also get his impression of things which is vitally important. He will see some success stories here that resulted in recovery as well as some success stories that resulted in divorce. Not every M is worth saving IMO. But with few exceptions, they are at least worth gaining the knowledge of what recovery looks like.

MEDC
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 05:09 PM
MEDC,I am in a similar situation and need some advice!Could you please read my thread and let me know what you think!
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/18/07 10:16 PM
sure... will do.
Quote
Well, I wasn't sure if you were saying those things or not. But while I think it is okay to vent, it is also important to control those feelings because eventually or subconsciously your feelings will be made known through your actions or attitude.

You are so right! I was distant yesterday because I got so caught up in what HE was doing that I wasn't focused on recovery.

Quote
...it almost seems like he is in self destruct mode with certain things.

The few people that still talk to me are saying this too - we are all very worried about him!

Well - he just called me at work. He told his mom this morning ... this makes it real. Apparently she took it well and wants to be there for me too! (I love her!) I teared up a little and told him I felt relieved that they finally knew. He asked why I sounded upset - I told him I was just so grateful that she still loved me and how bad I feel for hurting her son, the man I love. I asked him if he felt better and more relieved, he said "I was feeling great until I talked to you!" I was not expecting that ... what did I do wrong?
BTW - we had dinner with his parents last night ... it was a little awkward. His mom definitely noticed something was wrong. After DD went to bed, we got to talk. I expressed my remorse and promised to let it reflect in my actions (unlike earlier that day). We slept together last night. I asked if he was sleeping with anyone else - he promised he wasn't and looked me square in the eyes ... I almost feel stupid for believing him.

He will be home until Thursday when he goes out of town again. I am going to spend the week completely enthralled in showing remorse, regret, love, affection, admiration, etc. I don't know what else I can do ... he talks like its already over, but then says he needs time to think about things. He says we can't have SF, but we haven't gone a week without it. He says I have no place in his life, but then makes a point to be a part of mine.
Talked to his mom last night - it went really well and she is very supportive. (She is a therapist.) We are both really worried about how he's [not] handling this. He has agreed to take this trip (2 weeks) to really think things through. He called this morning and was talking about selling the house, etc. He said these are the things he's going to think about over the next 2 weeks. He hasn't dealt with the pain, anger, or situation at all ... I wish he would see an IC before he goes so that someone would give him some guidance on what to think about other than splitting assets!
Things are not looking so good ... he says he's been thinking about things, but I haven't figured out when he's doing that. When he's out drinking until 7am? When he's hanging out with his "friend" 3 days in a row? He says that if he had to make a decision right now, it would be divorce. But something is compelling him not to do that just yet ... he's not sure what that is. He gets angry every time we speak. I speak to him with kindness, and he gets angry! Maybe separation is best? What do you think? HELP!?!?!?!?! I am feeling so lost as to what to do ... I want to save my M and am so afraid that if we get separated it will be over for good.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/20/07 08:26 PM
Quote
Things are not looking so good ... he says he's been thinking about things, but I haven't figured out when he's doing that. When he's out drinking until 7am? When he's hanging out with his "friend" 3 days in a row? He says that if he had to make a decision right now, it would be divorce. But something is compelling him not to do that just yet ... he's not sure what that is. He gets angry every time we speak. I speak to him with kindness, and he gets angry! Maybe separation is best? What do you think? HELP!?!?!?!?! I am feeling so lost as to what to do ... I want to save my M and am so afraid that if we get separated it will be over for good


I have three questions for you to ponder.

Do you see anything judgemental in the above post?
Do you think you display patience?
Do you think you display empathy?
Yes.
No.
Not really.

Thank you for your usual kick in the pants ...

Besides losing this frame of mind, what else can I do over these next few weeks to be more attractive to him? (And I don't mean physically attractive.)
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/20/07 09:08 PM
Well, that time I let you kick yourself. I only asked the questions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let's start with these things and we will go from there. But just accomplishing thse will make you infinitely more attractive.

MEDC
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/20/07 09:23 PM
TFC,my H does exactly the same thing!Every time we speak he acts defensive and mean!I have asked him several times why he wants to be mean but he says he's not!I think it's easier for them to be disrespectful when there is someone else!I don't know what to do anymore!
MEDC - you are so right (as usual)! I did get to kick myself - but it felt good (odd, right?). With your help, I am beginning to recognize these things to improve.

I found out that my H talked to the OMs W today, so I think that had a little something to do with his mood. When I came home from work today, he was much nicer. I think he was trying to get to me a couple of times, but I wouldn't let him.

Examples:
1. His brother-in-law called the house and we missed the call. I told H that he had called and he wondered how we missed the call. I told him we were talking and didn't get to the phone in time. He started to get upset b/c he needed to talk to him. So I immediately apologized for inconveniencing him. His response? "Don't apologize for it - you didn't do anything wrong. What were we talking about anyway?"
2. He said he might not come home tonight. I would normally pout and carry on about it. Tonight, I told him that it was his choice and asked him to please leave the car seat with me in case he wasn't home in time to take DD to school tomorrow. He asked if I was telling him not to come home. I told him that I always want him here and that I look forward to waking up next to him when he is here.
3. When he left tonight, I waved good-bye and smiled. He called to ask why I gave a dirty look (I really didn't). I explained that the look wasn't dirty ... I was just thinking about how good he looked in his new sunglasses. He responded with something along the lines of "This is why things are so difficult. Now I have to go to work wanting you."

I think I'm getting the hang of this. We'll see.
Well, its 5 am. He never came home. I can't sleep.
He came home just before 6am. Text messaged me saying he was on his way. I sent one back saying DD didn't have to get up for another hour, he said "i know". I told him that I would have taken her to school. He said "I was trying to prove a point that when I say I'm going to do something, I will. I am responsible." I told him that he proved that he was responsible a long time ago. When he got home he asked if I understood - I told him I did. (Watch out - prob an LB coming!) I also told him that I knew he was responsible and he didn't have to prove that to me, maybe he needed to prove it to himself? Or maybe it was about proving he could come and go as he pleases? He said that wasn't it ... I said ok. We got along the rest of the morning.

Until now ... he just called wondering if I had talked to his mom b/c she called and demanded that he come over asap to talk. He didn't sleep much last night and is really upset that his schedule has been interrupted (his words, not mine). So, he is now in a bad mood, is over women (again, his words) and taking it out on me (understandable). I simply apologized that he was already having a rough day. The lack of sleep on both our parts isn't making our situation any easier. In the meantime, I am trying really hard to be patient, forgiving, and understanding.
Turns out MIL had a chat with H about his drinking and pulling away from DD and those who love him. She reminded him that DD & I need him and love him and vice versa. She also told him that he shouldn't make any decisions right now, that he really needs to take some time to think things through. She was concerned (rightfully so) and wanted to talk to him about it before he went out of town. Glad she did. Hopefully he will consider all this on his trip. I love my MIL - she is such a smart and loving lady!
Well, we ended up having a great day. No talk of the M, A, or R. Lots of short and pleasant conversations throughout the day. When I got home from work he wanted me to scratch his back. I am packing him for his trip tonight.

Then, I got a surprise. I was in the office picking up his socks and there they were ... Divorce papers. Not from an attorney, from online, but still - there they were.

I am devastated! Do I let this go as him doing a little investigative work about D or do I genuinely worry?
Yesterday was our first real day of no M/D/R/A talk and we got along beautifully. He even came home early last night to talk and have SF before going out of town! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> (But asked me not to tell anyone we had sex!?! Who would I tell, and why not? He says separated people aren't supposed to have sex. I told him we can have our own rules.)

He did fall asleep on the sofa, but told me it was unintentional ... normally he would say he was "proving a point". I got a nice long hug and kiss on the head before he left this morning. I slid an alarm clock w/ a picture of DD & I in his suitcase so he can remember that there are 2 people at home who love and miss him.

I think I'll just keep working on me and hope its enough to keep him around without filing those D papers. (Still not sure how to feel about those. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/22/07 02:36 PM
I would ignore those D papers. They mean nothing at this point. Now, if they were from a lawyer, I might see things differently.
Thanks MEDC. I am really trying to follow your advice to the T. I also read Mortarman's post to jks and printed it out. I put it in my planner to remind me of how my H must be feeling right now. I am committed to becoming a new woman!

The new me = good old parts [of me] + good new parts - old bad parts x Unconditional Love
I got a nice phone call from the road today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He called to tell me that he appreciates how supportive I've been of his career. He thanked me for being supportive throughout our relationship and now. He said that I could have said "well, you're going to divorce me, so I guess you'll need to stay in town until the weekend to help take care of [DD]". I told him thank you, though I didn't realize we were def getting a D. He said that we just look at the situation differently. His perspective: it was over on DDay, if it works out then great! My perspective: its not over until D papers are signed. Either way the situation is what it is. He just wanted me to know that he really appreciated the support and that it is a plus on my character ... these are the things he is thinking about on this trip.

Let's hope he keeps remembering the good and that it outweighs the bad. Is Plan A succeeding? We'll see, won't we?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/23/07 01:05 AM
He is noticing your latest efforts. Keep Plan A going. Good job today.
Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AND! More good news ... he called to tell DD good night, we talked for a minute and he said he'd talk to me again tomorrow. Then, he called again an hour later just to tell me hi and have a good night. Another good sign! I'm not getting my hopes up too high, gotta stay grounded, but I must admit to a happy dance after that phone call!
Have I ever mentioned that I hate roller coasters? I am an emotional wreck. I'm not sure how much longer I can hold it together. I think I'll get a babysitter one night so I can cry and hit the pillows w/o DD knowing. I am not calling him anymore, not begging him to think about it anymore, not having blind faith anymore. I am not having SF w/ him anymore, not worrying about what new girl he's with today anymore, not checking up on him anymore. I'm just going to work on being a good mom and an example for DD from here on out. I have an appt w/ an attorney on Tuesday. I guess I'll get my ducks in a row so I'm prepared when I get the D papers from him. Its all up to him now ... though I guess it always has been.
Please keep our family in your prayers.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/23/07 10:19 PM
what happened?
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/23/07 10:22 PM
I feel your pain TFC!I am trying to be strong but it's really hard!Sometimes it seems easier to give up,but keep the faith girl!It is out of our control now and that is really hard to let go of!We just both need to start focusing on ourselves and if they come around,then great,if not at least we are stronger and more able to deal with it!
He lied ... and lied, and lied, and lied. Too many to count. He's cold and distant again today, not nice at all. I'm just not going to worry about it anymore. He's going to do what he wants to do. I'm just going to work on me and hope its enough. If not, I suppose I'll be ok.
That last post sounded harsh ... I'm not mad at him. Just really sad today. I'm doing the "letting go and letting God" theory. I'm just working on me and hoping he comes back to the M.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 12:28 PM
on 3/22 930 pm all was good and you were dancing
on 3/23 530 pm you went off, 630 pm bc he was cold and distant

definitely go to see a lawyer so that you are prepared and know whats coming.

so, hes cold and distant... then back off. dont call him, maybe miss a phone call or two from him. dont be there for his every whim When He Is Like This. he will just keep doing it.

plan for times like these and know what your reaction is going to be ahead of time. dont be as cold as he is just dont be as accomodating.

i think he likes the new you; he has said so and if you back off he will miss it.
I know - I sound crazy don't I? I have been working 24/7 lately: at the office, as a mommy, on the new me. I guess I just am a bit overwhelmed right now. (Really looking forward to the beach in a week!)

He is in his own A and fog - do you think he really notices new me or is it him covering up his A? I have solid evidence of at least EA, no PA proof yet. I was really good about being sweet yesterday, but not really talkative (his attention span is really short and I usually talk too long anyway). So I was pleasant, but brief when he called. I only called him 1 time to ask a question pertaining to DD. It is getting harder and harder to Plan A knowing about his A - I want to ask him what he would have done if he had found out about mine before it was over ... would he have exposed? kept quiet? snooped until proof of PA? confronted me?
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 01:02 PM
not crazy - just overwhelmed. try not to take on so much. yes, i think he really noticed. when he thanked you for understanding, etc - that was him noticing. if he is in ea and not a then you can get him back with your excellent plan a. could be the reason that its not an a is bc of your plan aing! keep it up.

have you snooped?

dont ask him what he would have done just yet. i think that you should already know the answer to that. if you dont, now is still not the time to ask. it doesnt really matter.
Let's say I know as much as I can without being a fly on the wall every moment ... I guess I could always get a job as a PI if my job doesn't work out (LOL).

I am hoping it is my Plan A that's preventing it from being a full-fledged A. It is so easy to lose hope when you know more than you should and it isn't in your favor! I feel like I'm breaking his trust by snooping against his will. That could be a deal-breaker for him as I am trying to regain his trust. But now he is going to have to regain mine as well. This complicates our recovery tremendously.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 01:20 PM
never, ever tell him about the snooping. if you have told anyone else that you have - tell them that you dont do it anymore.

what have you uncovered?

youre plan a has to be what is stopping it... i dont know what else it could be. "she is bing so good right now, it just doesnt feel right to sleep with you" etc.

we can atart business together LOL

i know its tough, my h promised to be honest and continues to lie - am still plan aing and hopeful though. my plan b timeline doesnt even start for at least another year! try living with that every day... knowing you have a plan but cant implement it.

smile. when is he due to come home?
Yeah - he doesn't know I'm snooping. My 2 closest friends know, and MB - that's it.

He talks to her on the phone A LOT! They myspace each other too. I know that the 1st night he didn't come home, they were together (in a group). I know that each other night that he hasn't come home they were spending time together (in a group). I know that he spent at least part of our anniversary with her. There's only 1 night in question, but he called her 2x that night and I have no proof he stayed where he said he did. I know that he puts his arm around her waist when he whispers in her ear. I know that he thinks she's hot. I know who she is and we have met before. I have printed out everything ... phone records, emails, etc. I have about 1.5" of proof. No denying there is at least something emotional there.

He comes home next Sat. night and is here Sun. We both go out of town Mon. - he is back on the road, and I am taking DD on vacation (a much needed one). Then we will see each other again on Easter and he is in town that whole week. He's basically in town 1 week/month.
A year long plan A? Wow! You are a much stronger woman than I! Maybe my problem is that I am taking it day by day instead of setting a timeline?
And I must admit that "sweet" was probably overstating how I was toward him yesterday - "nice, but brief" is more like it.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 01:58 PM
nice but brief is good.

my plan is taking its toll on me so i am not as good as you think. i see plan b as a light at the end of the tunnel and TRY not to think about how far away it is although i have many moments (when i Know he has lied to me) when it seems impossible. i also see the time between now and then as 'i have this much time to plan a - step it up!' when i confront him for the last time about his actions, i hopefully will have had a very successful plan a under my belt so that plan b will be a success as well. i dont think he has a clue that i am in plan a right now and he certainly doesnt realize that he only has one year to shape up or ship out.

as for the snooping, as long as he doesnt talk to your gfs and there is no chance that they will tell, i see them as additional support. you need to put your stack in a safe place - give it to one of your gfs.
My best friend of 14 years lives pretty far away - she is my confidant. The other one is here and is usually at all the same things he is with OW - she is my informant. My stack is in a locked drawer in my office.

My Plan A is taking a toll on me and its only been a few weeks! I can't imagine what you must be going through! Sometimes I feel like I am torturing myself ... then I realize what he must have gone through when he found out about my A. Then I think, well at least he didn't have to pretend like he didn't know about it, mine was over the minute it was discovered. But that's not really consolation to either of us, is it?

My IC thinks that I need to set a time limit to determine how long I am willing to go through this. She thinks his back-and-forth behavior is semi-abusive. I told her that I think he is just on an emotional roller coaster and is confused, so I am trying to be patient. But she says I still need to set a limit to how long I'll do that b/c if I don't she thinks it will set the tone for me being a doormat throughout our M (assuming it works out).

How did you determine your timeline for Plan A & B???
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 02:12 PM
Stop snooping and work on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MEDC - did you read this post of mine from yesterday???

Quote
I am not calling him anymore, not begging him to think about it anymore, not having blind faith anymore. I am not having SF w/ him anymore, not worrying about what new girl he's with today anymore, not checking up on him anymore. I'm just going to work on being a good mom and an example for DD from here on out.

Everything I discovered was before the last 2 days. I am wondering if I should continue to snoop though, so that I know the truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 02:20 PM
TFC,my IC told me the same thing,and I am dealing with the same behavior as you from my H and it's wearing me down!My H waited a year for me to get it together so in the back of my head I think I should wait that long as well,although I don't know if I can hold out for that long!And it also depends on him!By the way,he left the party before I arrived last night!I really don't understand why he is acting this way!We have been together for 10 years and he can't be at the same party as me!It hurts so bad that he is completely ignoring me and avoiding me!
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 02:52 PM
you do need to set a time limit. dr. harly suggests 6 months. but that limit will depend on you and what youre capable of handling. it is also partially dependent upon how much time you are willing to give him to be ok with what happened - how long do you think it should take for him to "get over it"? technically, i dont think he will Ever get over it, it will just have less and less impact as time passes and you two have more good times together.

my sitch isnt so bad as far as we have more good days than bad bc i choose to be secretive and let him think that i believe him when he lies to me. thats my plan a - be good, have fun and absolutely no lb. the lb in my case is to bring it up bc it leads to an argument - always.

my timeline is dependent upon the D laws in my state and what i expect to get out of this if D happens which depends on length of M...
I don't expect him to "get over it" ... I just want him to make the decision to TRY at this M. I think we could work this out if only he would try. I am trying to omit LBs. He doesn't know that I know about his OW, so I don't bring that up. I try not to talk about the M, R, etc. and just be loving, kind, and patient. I suppose I will try to perfect my Plan A before deciding on a time limit.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 06:46 PM
"get over it" was harsh. what i mean is... HE needs to be ok with his decision to say "ok, im going to try or thats it, im done"... how much time do you think he needs to make that decision? when in doubt, put his shoes on... how long would it take for you to decide if this was turned around?

**you are making it harder for him to say im done with your plan a** remember that!

mb people would be a lot harder on you than i am being. they would tell you to expose his relationship with OW NOW and demand NC NOW. they would not allow him to go out and do as he pleases, they would not allow him to go out of town, they would make him change jobs. these are all options you have. think about it and make a decision based on what you can handle and your specific situation. sometimes people come here and are told EXPOSE RIGHT NOW OR ELSE and they do it without thinking. i want you to think before you act (which you already do). your relationship is vulnerable right now bc of what you did and it is made more vulnerable by what he is doing. i dont know your H well enough to have an idea of what he might do if you expose. you do not want his EA with OW to culminate to PA. i am a lot less agressive bc of what i am going through and i believe that in my corner of the world - i have time to do what i need to do - prepare.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 06:46 PM
i just read that... did it make Any sense?
It made total sense. If I exposed, we would be done - no more chances. Not that there seem to be any chances now anyway, but you know what I mean. Sometimes I feel like I am just torturing us - like I should just let him go if that's what he wants ...
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/24/07 09:33 PM
is he still cold and distant? if he calls and is cold and distant with you.... you get off the phone. "sorry dd is getting into something and hang up" You dont need to be tortured like that.

are you ready for plan b?
He was cold and distant just now. He said (on his own) that he was trying not to distance himself. I told him he was being great with DD (not great, but better than usual) but had made it obvious over the last 2 days that he had no interest in talking to me. He said he was sorry and didn't mean to, that he would call me later to talk. I said "you are always welcome to call if you want to, but if you don't feel like it you don't have to". I am thinking of Plan B. Problem is he won't move out! I am thinking about going on to the beach a day early (the day he was supposed to be with us)- is this wrong?
Still hasn't called ... thinking about Plan B. But how do I get him to move out? I have to keep DD's best interests at heart, so us moving right now would be way too hard on her. I decided it would be mean to take her out of town without him getting an opportunity to see her first.

You know, I never wanted to lose my H, I just wanted his attention. What I did was wrong. I still want to try to work this out, but I don't think he does. His actions speak louder than his words, and I think he's done.
DD called to tell him g'nite - he actually answered the phone! After they were done, he asked to speak to me. He apologized for not calling - said he was working the whole drive. I told him (in a sticky sweet voice) "don't worry about it - i said to call if you wanted to talk. you didn't want to talk. its really no big deal. hope you have a good night!" He went on to say he really was working, I told him not to worry about it. I was super-nice, and just got off the phone with him. He sounded stunned. I just read the post about how if the WS can't hurt you, the A can end ... let's hope that happens before I am as checked out of this M as he is.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/25/07 12:31 PM
good morning, you know better than anyone bc you know him. i think he is just confused. i doubt he ever thought he would be in this situation and now he doesnt know what to do and he is taking his time to decide whats best for him. i think he is struggling with staying as well as leaving.

ask your lawyer how to get him to move out
In the mail yesterday, I received a book from a friend of mine who's marriage has suffered numerous As. The book is "The Power of a Praying Wife". I think this fits into my idea of letting go and letting God. I am going to try it before moving to plan B. Every time I think of giving up, something comes my way to encourage me to hang on a little longer.

And, yes - he is clearly confused! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
While I am trying this out ... do I let him know that I know about his A, and ask him to leave? Or do I deal with it in silence while trying to win back my H?
Well, I guess I don't have to tell him I know ... I just sort of caught him. I called on my way to the grocery store to see if he wanted anything. His phone picked up and I heard this ...

WH: "Uh oh, that's not good. That was the wifey calling."
OW#2: "Oh no - that's no good"
ME (on the other end): "Uh. I can hear you!"
WH (stuttering): "Uh yeah - I dropped my phone. Sorry."
ME: "Who was that?"
WH: (still stuttering): "Oh. Just a group of us out"
ME: "Nevermind. Talk to you later." (Hangs up)

Then he has to text message me back!?! I told him if he wanted to talk I was sure his phone dials out. Then he called. I told him it was obvious that he didn't want me to hear what was going on and to think about what I heard on my end of the phone. He told me that what I was insinuating was ridiculous. I informed him that I wasn't insinuating anything, that I was simply asking for an explanation and for him to understand what I heard. Then I asked why he was being so defensive? He said he would just call later. I said "Yeah - you do that. You call when you want to, or you have a second. Don't think I don't know." I hung up. (MAJOR LBs, I know.)

It took him a few minutes, but he responded with a text message saying "Nice. What do you think you know?"

I haven't responded yet ...
I know its Sunday, but can anyone offer some advice to help calm me down???
Posted By: NeverToLate Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/25/07 09:41 PM
When I am really, really upset, I go for a long walk, weather permitting.
Thank you ... I am about to cook dinner then DD and I will go for a walk. But after she goes to bed, I'll have to find something to take my mind off it.

Do I just not talk to him for a few days? Do I go into Plan B? Can I even continue Plan A at this point?
He called to apologize ... realized he didn't think about things from my perspective, but still felt I was out of line. I apologized for overreacting and we ended up talking for a bit. Basically, he hasn't taken the time to deal with things or think about whether or not he wants to be M anymore. He feels sorry for me, sees I've changed and how bad I feel for what I did. I told him that I still want us to work things out, but will understand if he doesn't and not to feel sorry for me. I am a different person now and am continuing to grow. I told him that if he would take some time to get to know me again, it might be easier to make that decision. He thinks he should go to IC to work through it all. He didn't have much else to say, but thanked me for the talk.

So I guess we are still in limbo. He hasn't taken any of the last 3 months to work through it or think about it, so its almost as if we are back to DDay ... how long to I hang on? How long do I give him to start thinking about it? I don't want to force a decision, but he needs to at least start thinking about it, right?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/25/07 11:45 PM
I have to tell you TFC... your actions would end this ordeal for me. You have continued to say that you are going to stop worrying about HIM and work on you... BUT everything I read from you is all about YOU. I would walk away in a heartbeat if I were your H.

You have been given advice here... you say you are going to follow it... yet you continue to do as you please which is really the same thing you have been doing all along.

I am going to bug out of this sitch now as you obviously have your mind made up that working on you is not the way to go. Frankly, I think your H deserved more patience from you...more time from you... but only you get to make that call. I can tell you that if I were in your H's shoes, you would have driven the last nail into the coffin you placed me in. Sorry for being so blunt but I am really confused by the contradiction between your actions and your words.

Good luck.

MEDC
I HAVE been working on me. I am giving patience to him, I am trying to follow advice from here ... I am holding on for dear life. I am willing to do the work for our marriage. I suppose I am supposed to sit idly by knowing that he is in an A that is adding to the problems in our M, but that is hard to do. I'm sorry you've given up on me.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/26/07 12:50 AM
good lord - you take a babystep forward and then a giant step backwards.

Have to agree with MEDC.

You are being manipulative and controlling. I am thinking you want to end the M. Get a lawyer and try to get your BH removed from the house and then go into Plan B. Yep - that will win him over after you had slept with his best friend. Sounds like mind games. My advice to him is run for the hills, go for full custody and residence of the home.

If he is having a revenge A - then you are competing with OW. How do you stack up against the OW ? Looks and demeanor? Are you worth the pain and hassle? Your DD is worth it for both of you to try. You need to work on you and not him. He is seeing it now - finally.

See Plan B is for the BS who is hurting and in pain (My suggestion is to read the pain of those posting on this board in Plan B) , they remove themselves to waken the WW to what life is like without them and also to retain what "love units" are left their bank for their WS. Plan B may take 2 years even after a divorce. No guarantees and it does have a high risk - out of sight / out of mind.

Seems to me we have a Plan B in reverse. Plan B by you will help him make a clear decision. Instead of thinking you or him - think about your DD - that is YOUR job. Be a mother and work on trying to be a Wife one day. So far being a W there apparently is much to learn.

Hope you calm down a bit and think about it.
He called just to talk. I was putting DD to bed, he asked me to call him back when I was done. This is the first time he's called just to talk to me. We talked for almost an hour! Before we got off the phone I told him how much I appreciated him calling and enjoyed talking to him. He said he was glad he called and he enjoyed talking to me too. (another happy dance!)

I will take some time away from here (my thread) to read about other people's situations. Maybe that will help my perspective on my personal situation. In the meantime, I will continue to work on me, go to IC, and start putting my thoughts and concerns in a journal instead of here.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/26/07 01:33 AM
perhaps a little too hyper on previous post - my apology
looks like you are taking anther baby step forward. Make his home safe, stay steady and have grace.

Be the best mother to your DD. Maybe he noticed when he called the first time. You are the mother of his child so that is One of the things you have over any OW out there. Stay calm and confident.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thank you for that rwinger, I really appreciate it. I am trying my best to show him that I am a kind and loving woman and mother. I am doing extensive work on me, and realize that I sometimes get lost in the day-to-day drama. Most of my free-time is spent reading, learning, and meditating on what I need to do to be a better woman and mother. I take good care of our home, our daughter, him, and myself. His compliment of what a wonderful mother I've become resonates with me daily. It inspires me to continue my journey. I will try not to get caught up in the day-to-day and keep my sights on the bigger picture. (Easier said than done, but will try.)
Have done much thought over the last few days. I'm working an excellent Plan A so far this week ... he has actually been calling a lot more and we've had all nice chats. I met with my IC today and decided to establish a couple of boundaries for myself & DD (not demands for him). I will be working hard to stick to them. I am in a better place with more clarity and less anger. Feeling much better about my plan. The one thing that keeps weighing on my mind is: Do I expose his revenge A or do I just wait to see if it fizzles out?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/27/07 11:56 PM
"Exposure" is a weapon in the betrayed spouse's (BS) arsenal to smash the adultery by letting people who can put pressure on the adultery to end. These include both WS and BS family members, including their children, religious leaders at your church, friends, co-workers, senior officers at the place of work (if it’s a workplace affair), business and professional associates, professional societies to which the WS belongs, etc., etc. [color:"blue"] [/color] [color:"blue"] [/color] [color:"blue"] [/color] [color:"blue"] [/color]

If you want to recover your marriage using Dr. Harley’s well-established principles, you need to follow his program right from the beginning. If you treat MB principles like a Chinese menu, selecting items from column A and some from column B, according to what suits you, you’re sowing the seeds of the destruction of your marital recovery plan.

If you haven’t seen Dr. Harley’s advice, here’s a thread relaying Dr. Harley’s own words on the subject of exposure:

[color:"blue"]Dr. Harley's Advice On Exposure[/color]

I'm not entirely sure where you are in your recovery plan but good luck in all that you do.
TFC,

You could expose his A, and really that might be the best plan. However, if he is calling you every day and his discussions with you are starting to change in positive ways, then perhaps you should wait abit.

Normally, I would say expose, expose,expose. But, the problem is he is recovering from you A. It has only been three months and in recovery that is a very short time. I think you should discuss his A, but pointing out, that it makes it very hard for you to hang on to things given the damage you have done, and the damage he is doing.

The road to recovery is narrow, and narrowed even more when both have betrayed one another. It would make sense that everyone would be of kinder heart, and that will happen when his A ends and if he decides to try and work on the marriage.

Patience and time are the watch words. And really you might want to consider going to plan B after you have done a great plan A. Have you read up on it? Are you prepared for a plan B? Do you really understand it's purpose?

Please get yourself primed.

God Bless,

JL
Longhorn - Thank you for your advice. You believe then, that even though I was WS first, his A should be exposed?

JL - I thought about Plan B last week, but decided I wasn't ready for it ... I didn't feel my Plan A was done well enough thus far (especially considering my A) and he still doesn't know that I know about his A. I want to expose, but also feel that I need to give him the fair chance to end it on his own (as I do not think it will last). But I also don't want to give opportunity for it grow much more. I am being very nice and caring during our chats, but I've been careful not to hang on the phone for a long time (other than the one chat on Sunday evening). I haven't really called him, other than to check on something yesterday. I asked what I needed to, he answered, I said "that's great! hope you have a great rest of your day!" He stopped me from getting off the phone to ask how my day was going (something he rarely does). So we chatted a moment longer and I got off the call.

So, I figured I can't go into Plan B until I tell him that I know about the A, have done a bit more/better Plan A, and he still hasn't ended the A. Am I right?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 01:12 AM
Have a question for you from one of your quotes.

Quote
It was discovered 2 months ago and ended immediately. I was actually trying to end it for a month before my H found out ... but I didn't. I was sucked into the fog - yuck, I despise who I was then. Have been in NC since the day the A was discovered [and will remain that way].


Would your A have ended on its own by now ? or was it ended after exposure to your H.

Something to think about and perhaps H has a different perspective.

Exposure IMHO may fall on deaf ears to those that know about ur A. Right now - dont you have MIL in ur corner?

Either way - I would think about the exposure list carefully.
Yes my A ended upon exposure, but I truly believe that it def would have ended on its own. Once OM asked me to leave my H for him I got a wake-up call that I didn't want out of my M.

I agree about his A falling on deaf ears ... but MIL is being incredibly supportive. Are you suggesting that I hint to her about it?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 01:54 AM
you know the situation better than anyone here. Going to give a try - I hope others post as well - use all opinions but only you know the true situation and how ur H is.

In most BS cases the full exposure gives the light of reality on fantasy. Not sure H is in fantasy - sounds like like a living he// to me.

hint to MIL - perhaps....but it could isolate you from MIL also. Blood is thicker than water. OTOH - thats the place to start.

Are you sure there is a RA? One response you are going to get is that you are lessening your guilt by projecting another issue where none exists. Be prepared.

Start with parents and IL's - be prepared for some backlash. H will be upset - no doubt about it.

By the same token - ur H may hv checked out and will not care. His perspective is that the M was over months ago during ur A.

You will have to compete with OW during Plan A
What is OTOH?

I am certain there is at least EA, no surety of PA yet (but highly suspicious). He will meet accusations with "we're just friends".

I thought about the "checked out" possibility too. But, if he doesn't care anymore why is he hiding it and why is he starting to come around being nicer to me? (Am I being too hopeful here?)

I am def thinking of her as competition! On looks alone I have her beat (except she has bigger boobs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />). I've met her a couple of times a while back, and if I remember correctly I have her beat on brains too. She is more of a party-girl, and my focus is being a good mom. But she is def meeting ENs now, so I am stepping it up!

Maybe I'll wait a bit to decide about exposure ... see if the A dies down a little first, keep Plan A-ing (better than ever), and spend some [fun] time with him when he gets back in town.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 02:11 AM
on the other hand - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oh! And I was just bragging about brains! LOL

Btw - I wasn't trying to be conceited before. I've always downplayed assets before and had low self-esteem (one factor in my poor choices). Through my IC and self-discovery, I am finally able to acknowledge things about myself (good and bad) and work on accepting them and/or changing them.

Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 02:47 AM
"I thought about the "checked out" possibility too. But, if he doesn't care anymore why is he hiding it and why is he starting to come around being nicer to me? (Am I being too hopeful here?"

Good point and He may be noticing the Plan A - but might be struggling with turmoil.

Never too hopeful...Your DD is worth any struggle - she needs both active parents - its simple.

You are the mother of his child - he knows this and this might be what brings him over to your side of the fence.
How to "pull" him over is the trick.

Not all situations are cookie cutter. I have come to believe by reading here that exposure is the best tool in the arsenal. There are current sitches now in which the BS' are hesitate to exposed even when the S filed D.

It is action that gives the BS control over events and also puts the first cracks in an ongoing A. I am just not sure of the tactic in your situation.

If you have time - call that radio show tmrw. I am interested in what the Harley's say about this scenario.
Me too! I will look into how/when to do that. I know my sitch isn't incredibly unique, but we (as people) are. H tends to resist authority, so to speak, so I'm being cautious not to place demands/ultimatums.

He has turned into even more of a party-animal than he was before, so I'm not sure that being an angelic mom is going to pull him over the fence. HOWEVER, being a great mom is the best thing I can do!
Well, I did it again. I took a giant step back. I confronted him on the OW. I told him that I knew about her and he asked who. Told him I wasn't going to play games, he knew who I was talking about. He changed the subject to my A and asked what was wrong with me. I told him that I screwed up and am changing! He said maybe it was his turn to screw up, maybe we should just get really separated or D, and if we were meant to be together, we would. I told him that I would still like to work on this M - I will still do whatever it takes, no matter what. He said he knew everything and asked if I wanted to base the future of our relationship on lies, so I was O&H - told him I'd looked at the phone bill and know about OW. His response - "We're just friends. I'm allowed to have friends." I told him he could have friends, but people were talking about them and I'd heard he's kissed her. He denied it. I ended the conversation. I royally screwed up this time around.

Bring on the 2x4s ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 03:47 PM
I'm not sure you took a step backward, TFC, because the trend for your relationship has been a downward spiral for some time now. There’s not too much further down it can go, so a step backward is a minor detail.

I just skimmed through you threads to get a feel for what’s going on and I don’t have a clue what you’re doing. Frankly, I can’t tell if you have a plan to recover your marriage or not. From my point of view, you’re flailing around like a drowning swimmer and making just about as much progress as someone in the grip of an undertow.

As I understand this, you were the WW first, your husband found out, you confessed and now want to make this work. Your husband was initially supportive of the relationship but has decided to drift away and is a WH now. Without all the standard defensive “yes…but” qualifiers and modifiers, etc., is that a reasonable (AKA, “brutal”) description of what’s happened over the past few months? If it is, what’s your plan to get from where you are to where you want to be?

Look, I know you’ve read SAA, but your situation isn’t explicitly covered there. I think you would be well advised to get a personalized plan for recovery from Steve Harley. He’s an excellent counselor and getting advice specific for your situation would be invaluable. If you can’t afford that (and it would be money well spent) you and your husband desperately need a highly experienced, pro-marriage counselor from your local area. Right now, you and your husband are acting, and talking, at cross purposes and, based on your words, there’s darn little communication taking place. I don’t know how you’re going to get this marriage back together without professional couples counseling. There are just too many issues to address and you, as a couple, can’t even agree on an agenda.

You asked me the other day if I thought you should expose even if you were the WW first. I gave you a link I hope you’ve had the time to read. If not, please find time, because the answer lies in that thread. I think you need to make an effort to clear the air completely so you can revitalize your reconciliation efforts from a high moral plane. Poor, obscenely bad, decisions were made, but you can recover your integrity and begin working on the trust problems between you and your husband.

For instance, how have you disposed of the questions still unsolved from your own adultery? Have you exposed yourself to the OMW and apologized to her, for instance? Perhaps there is no OMW. I couldn’t find a reference to one in my quick skim of your story. Have you sent the OM a non-contact letter to formalize your revulsion at having nearly destroyed your marriage and how you want no contact with OM ever again? Have you shown it to your husband? This needs doing even if there is no OMW.

TFC, I don’t think you can put in a good Plan A and a Plan B without resolving your own adultery, either simultaneously with those Plans or before putting them into operation. If you try to minimize the existing problems, you’ll fail at resolving both your and your husband’s infidelity.

Okay, I think I’ll stop and let some others get a word in edgewise. Take care, TFC. You and your husband have dug yourselves a really deep hole, but you can climb out. It’ll take a lot of hard work by both of you, but it can be done. Good luck, lady.
A downward spiral indeed. And your comparison to a drowning swimmer is exactly how I feel. I need to get a grip!

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As I understand this, you were the WW first, your husband found out, you confessed and now want to make this work. Your husband was initially supportive of the relationship but has decided to drift away and is a WH now. Without all the standard defensive “yes…but” qualifiers and modifiers, etc., is that a reasonable (AKA, “brutal”) description of what’s happened over the past few months? If it is, what’s your plan to get from where you are to where you want to be?

This is indeed an accurate description. As for a plan, read on ...

We did 1 session w/ Steve - H wouldn't do LB & EN questionnaires and told me not to schedule another appt. This morning he said he would consider another one ... we'll talk when he gets back in town.

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For instance, how have you disposed of the questions still unsolved from your own adultery? Have you exposed yourself to the OMW and apologized to her, for instance? Perhaps there is no OMW. I couldn’t find a reference to one in my quick skim of your story. Have you sent the OM a non-contact letter to formalize your revulsion at having nearly destroyed your marriage and how you want no contact with OM ever again? Have you shown it to your husband? This needs doing even if there is no OMW.

I believe that we have addressed all questions from my A, but if we haven't I am completely willing to answer them. OMW exposed to H, so she knows. I told him via telephone that day No Contact and H told him No Contact. No letter has been written and I understand he's move across the country - should I still write one? I am currently in process of an apology letter to OMSTBXW.

So, I called in to the MB radio show and got Dr. Harley's advice. Dr. H said that we need to begin to address the reasons for my A TOGETHER (not just me in IC). He said that because of the steps I've taken following my A, H's only reason for his A is revenge (insignificant relationship). He suggested that I call OW to confront and point-blank ask ... I don't know that I can do that (and I think she'd lie). When he gets back in town, we need to have a talk. I need to state that I am willing and wanting to be in a M with H, but not one where we are emotionally separated. If H is unwilling to work on the M, we need to get separated.

I must say that I am finally having some peace with the idea of separation. I feel like I'm going crazy and can't find any solid ground to stand on. Maybe a separation would be good for us, but I really just don't want to lose him.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 05:28 PM
Follow Dr. Harley's advice closely. I'm relieved nothing I said even looks to be at odds with what he told you. I said couples counseling, he said counseling together. Same concept.

Your husband's adultery does look, at first blush, like a revenge oriented thing. It could be an emotional detachment, being set adrift emotionally by the thought of your adultery, but in the end, it's all much the same to me.

Please tell us why you hesitate to call the OW. She very probably WILL lie. So what? You see, the call will be a way of ramping up the pressure on a fantasy your WH and she may have been developing. I suspect Dr. Harley may have recommended the call to elicite information (to the extent the OW is willing to be truthful), but it's also to put the OW on notice that you're in there fighting for your WH and things won't be so rosy in their fantasy world.

Hang in there.
I called once before and hung up (no nerve) ... she told him. When he & I got off the phone today following my confrontation, he called her right after. They are on high-alert. Will she tell me anything at all? I think she'll say the same thing he is saying - "just friends".

Now, can I begin exposure to ILs and friends?
Posted By: jksmith Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 05:34 PM
So TFC,what are you going to do if he wants to get separated?Just sit back and wait for him to play and hope he decides he wants to be M again!I am so overwhelmed with my situation!It's hard being separated cuz you don't know what their doing!I haven't even heard from mine in over a week!How do you work on a M when you are separated?Out of sight,out of mind!Although my H was never out of my mind during my A,and we were separated then!It just made it easier when I didn't see or talk to him cuz when I saw him or heard the hurt in his voice it killed me!
That's a good question jks! Next week I will be at the beach with DD and will be sure to set aside time to really work on my plan. As much as he travels, its almost like we're separated anyway. And, just because we're separated doesn't mean I won't know what he's doing ... you have to remember that my H is a public figure and I always find out something.

If he needs to "play" to figure out if he wants our M or not, I don't really have room to stop him. And I'd rather him "play" on his own, rather than DD wondering why Daddy lives with us but spends the night out.
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 06:49 PM
Good that you called in. Listen to Longhorn .... there is good stuff written by Longhorn. I appreciate the different angle of contacting the OW.
fyi - I am not a 'pro' - just a rookie but long time lurker. I was drawn in because this sitch has a lot of pain on both sides. Your DD is worth the effort of saving your M - to have both loving parents.

BTW - I am sure it has been addressed but the travel schedule has to be modified one day. I use to travel across the country and overseas for 29 weeks per year. Most times I was always home during the weekend for our dates. This extra effort still almost cost my M. Together time can never to replaced - the burden and vulnerabilities are not woth the risk.

Since I travel very little now, we have grown in love together but it has taken almost took 2 yrs of non-travel to get back what was lost. Not worth it.
I've appreciated having you & Longhorn here this week! I agree, but H thinks DD will be fine if we get D. This hurts to hear, because I don't think that's ok.

Travel schedule was addressed by Dr. H - this is not something that can change in his career (and I'm ok with that), but I can start meeting up with him for weekends away. I am willing to work around the travel.

Think I should expose to MIL & SIL today? or should I give it a little more time?
I'm going to brush up on SAA again tonight to see what I've missed. I feel like I've been drowning and have no clue what I'm doing! I need to try to calm down and set a PLAN ...one that I can stick to! (This has obviously been the hardest thing for me to do!) Any pointers from the pros?
Well, he just called my cell. We were eating dinner and didn't notice. Had DD phone him back from house. We spoke. He stated he was afraid I was keeping DD from talking to him ... told him I would never do that. Small talk for a bit followed by him saying he was still upset about this morning. I apologized for the angry outburst only. He said that wasn't what he's upset about - he's upset that I listened to other people and presumed to know his feelings. I explained that I didn't presume to know his feelings; I only expressed my concern for what I thought his feelings could be. He told me that I need to keep in mind that the people that I'm surrounding myself with have a vendetta against him (not true - they are for our M, not one or the other of us). Said he would call later.

What now?

P.S. Notice he didn't deny his feelings. And his voice sounded rather deflated on the phone.
Posted By: JustLetGo Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 03/28/07 10:50 PM
hi - sorry ive been gone so long. re: calling OW... if i was the OW and W called me i would prob deny it - actually i would. BUT! i would NOT like that W called and told me she Knows.

i *suggest* you call and just tell her to stay away from your H. Her "friendship" is not welcome in your relationship.

exposure? i have to say that until you know FOR SURE that he is in A dont do it... but you know me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Yay - I've missed you! Thanks for not giving up on me.

My H would be LIVID if I called her! He states that he can have whatever friends he wants ... and he's probably told her all sorts of crazy things about me! Remember he's the one saying we're "separated" while we're living & sleeping together - doubt she knows that. If I were to call, I wouldn't want to sound like a psycho/desperate woman ... and would she even believe that we're not truly separated?

What's your take on our last conversation?
What if, instead of calling her, I talk with him (when he gets back in town) to let him know that his "friendship" with her is not welcome in our home because it takes away from time that could be spent with our family and in healing our relationship?
In addition -
I was thinking about his definition of the word "separation" last night after we spoke again (nice conversation, brief, idle chit-chat). It seems to me that yes, we are EMOTIONALLY separated right now. But a marital separation is not purely an emotional one. If we are to be emotionally separated while living together & sleeping together, that would actually be called cake-eating on his part IMO. So, seems to me he needs to understand that while I do not wish to be separated, if he does we'll need to be completely separated ...

what say you?
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In addition -
I was thinking about his definition of the word "separation" last night after we spoke again (nice conversation, brief, idle chit-chat). It seems to me that yes, we are EMOTIONALLY separated right now. But a marital separation is not purely an emotional one. If we are to be emotionally separated while living together & sleeping together, that would actually be called cake-eating on his part IMO. So, seems to me he needs to understand that while I do not wish to be separated, if he does we'll need to be completely separated ...

tfc - please stop trying to make sense out of WS nonsense. You'll just go crazy if you do.

He DOES understand that you don't wish to be separated.

He DOES understand that he is married to you and living with you and sleeping with you and that it's ridiculous for him to say that he is "separated" from you.

He knows perfectly well that he is bullying you and playing you.

He also knows that it's working.

Stop waiting for him to "do something" about this. Hon, he's not going to do ANYTHING about this except keep on bullying you into going along with it.

What are YOUR boundaries?

What are YOU going to do?
Mulan
LOL ... good question Mulan!

Here is at least what I WON'T do:
I will not sleep with him while he is involved in this "friendship". I will not financially support a lifestyle that enables his A. I will not allow DD around OW. I will not sit around and wait for him to come home from being out with OW.

How am I doing?
What I will do:

I will be a good mother, a woman my DD can respect & be proud to call her Mommy!
I will continue my spiritual growth and self-discovery.
I will do yoga 3x a week.
I will enjoy the little things in life.
ok - calling her is not an option; dont do it. Livid is bad.

"he's upset that I listened to other people and presumed to know his feelings"... He still cares about what you think - this is good.

is he still going on about the separated thing?

when is he coming home? i think you two need a night out doing something that you both enjoy. do you think he would go with you?
What if, instead of calling her, I talk with him...

i think talk would take too long. if/when she comes up just say "well, i dont like her and she needs to go." OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT and then drop it. there is no reason to talk about it. i would be careful when this is said because i think (i KNOW) it could turn into a fight and you want to be careful not to LB. so prepare yourself ahead of time, if you are going to do this, for what he might say and have a comeback that will not be lb (does crying work?)

where would he go if you kicked him out.

didnt you have an appt with a lawyer? did i miss that?
What I will do:


be the kind of wife a husband would be happy to come home to (within your own ability - you dont have to be superwoman unless you want to)
TFC, you're still bouncing off the walls. Lots of random thoughts, some theorizing, but little action. Look, you’ve gotten as far as you can with trying to discuss issues with the alien. He’s not, repeat, not going to respond to your entreaties to end this affair with that woman until he’s forced to. Sorry…it just isn’t going to happen.

Your first step is to break up the affair. What are you going to do to make that happen? BTW, your husband is going to be “livid” no matter what you do so don’t make that an issue. People get over being angry; marriages don’t get over having a third party interjected into them.

A suggestion: buy the book Not "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. It'll be an eye opener for you and, who knows, your WH might even see something in it he can identify with, when the fantasy is broken up.
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is he still going on about the separated thing?

Not really - I think at this point its assumed I'm clear on that point.

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when is he coming home? i think you two need a night out doing something that you both enjoy. do you think he would go with you?

He'll be back in town Saturday night and home all day Sunday (assuming he doesn't spend the night out Sat). He goes out of town again Mon. and DD & I go to the beach that day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Then we are all back in town for Easter, and H is in town all week. Before I confronted him about OW, he had agreed to a night out and possibly another MC session w/ SH. That may have changed by now ...

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where would he go if you kicked him out.

Who knows? I guess wherever it is that he's been staying. He's only in town about 5-8 days/month, so its not like he needs an apartment right away.

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didnt you have an appt with a lawyer? did i miss that?

I did - for tomorrow. But I had to move it ... H was supposed to put $$$ in the account while out of town, but never did. So I ended having to pay all the bills out of my money, which meant having to move the appt.

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What I will do:


be the kind of wife a husband would be happy to come home to (within your own ability - you dont have to be superwoman unless you want to)

A much better one than what I said! Our friends have always called me SuperWoman ... now I have to live up to it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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TFC, you're still bouncing off the walls. Lots of random thoughts, some theorizing, but little action.

I realize that - be patient with me, its only been 1 day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I know its time for action! I woke up with a new attitude today, one I plan on sticking with. But I really need help on setting a step-by-step plan. I'm having a hard time with this (obviously).

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Your first step is to break up the affair. What are you going to do to make that happen? BTW, your husband is going to be “livid” no matter what you do so don’t make that an issue.

Not sure how to do this. I've gotten so much conflicting advice here. Dr. Harley only suggested calling the OW, which I just can't do. I won't get any support from his friends because of my A, so exposure there won't do any good. What is your suggestion for how to begin breaking it up?

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A suggestion: buy the book Not "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. It'll be an eye opener for you and, who knows, your WH might even see something in it he can identify with, when the fantasy is broken up.

I will read it while on vacation next week - thanks for the suggestion.

I've read all the links you provided. I feel like my head is swimming with so much info I don't know where to begin.

So, I get that Step 1 is to break up his A.
Now the question is ... How?
i am Not sure that your M will survive Livid - you need to make that call! step by step is difficult when you dont know what the other is thinking. you need to MAKE SURE its an affair first; you know what that means.

can you make plans with him for saturday night? just know that if you do, you need to not lb, no fihgting, no whining - just have a good time. mention it - see what happens.

*bouncing off the walls would be normal if i were you so i wouldnt stress it. take your time and PLAN. KNOW what is going on BEFORE you act - please? if he is having an A - everyone here will help you break it up but you really need to be POSITIVE or s will hit the f for no reason and cause damage where none was needed.

just think it through.
Well the facts are as follows: She's the first contact in the morning and usually the last at night. He calls her almost every time right after talking to me. They text msg each other about 10 times/day. Several people have called me concerned about how much they've been out together. I would at least constitute this as an EA. It is standing in the way of our M recovering. Whether its gotten physical or not, I'm unsure, but either way this chick has to go.
do you know where they go? maybe you can go there with a gf and "spot" him - dont make a scene of course - youre presence should be enough to rattle him.

i thought about turning the phone off - this would stop it but only temporarily.

what do you think?
I do know where they go and I've thought about that. For instance, in a couple of weeks there is a festival here in town that they will be at. It has lots of fun stuff to do, so I thought about taking DD. BUT - I don't want her to see her dad with another woman! I may get a babysitter and go out with a gf soon.

I thought about the phone too, but then I won't be able to track the calls anymore. That only keeps me in the dark. There is a tiny bit of good news - the number of calls and tms has slowed down since I confronted him about her. And now it seems as though she is initiating most of the contact.
My WW had the exact same modus.

first person she called in the morning, last person she called at night.

10 text messages a day.

Calls him after every conversation with me.

Very unnerving.

Further snooping (voice recorder in the car) revealed that the affair was physical. I would put money that if you snooped deeper, you will discover the same.

They never admitted it, even when I had the recordings as evidence. Took her female friend that was also indicated in the recordings, having an affair of her own, to call me and "come clean".

My ww followed suit after. The cat was out of the bag.

Any chance of hiring a Private Investigator to get that concrete evidence if you aren't up to doing the task yourself?

I can tell you that finding out the truth helped me a lot emotionally. Nothing but lies from the waywards. Snooping gives you closure on the truth and definitely rattles the cage of the affair.
Well, I thought about a PI but I think I've been doing a pretty good job of it for free. At this point, I don't know that I'd be any more upset if it was physical. I finally know how he must feel about my A. I am just ready to get her out of our life so we can try to heal this M. So, the question remains: How do I break up their A?
tfc -

Advice from radio:

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So, I called in to the MB radio show and got Dr. Harley's advice. Dr. H said that we need to begin to address the reasons for my A TOGETHER (not just me in IC). He said that because of the steps I've taken following my A, H's only reason for his A is revenge (insignificant relationship). He suggested that I call OW to confront and point-blank ask ... I don't know that I can do that (and I think she'd lie). When he gets back in town, we need to have a talk.


The festival you mentioned might be the best time to confront OW - if you feel uncomfortable by phone. IMO - bring DD - sends a bigger msg to OW and WH.

In my sitch - my sons (23 & 17 at the time) confronted OM and their Mom before I got my crap together. They hv never mentioned it to me but am proud of them for standing up for our family.

There will be a time (perhaps it is now) that you will have to fight for your and DD family.
tfc, the best weapon you have to break up the affair is for you to expose it to family, friends and coworkers. This breaks down the walls the WS and OP have put up around their fantasy and lets in the cold light of day. Like cockroaches when you turn on the kitchen light, the cheaters often scramble and scatter when everybody can suddenly see what they are up to.

Exposing the affair is part of Plan A. Are you well-schooled on Plan A? I'd suggest you do a SHORT Plan A and all the while be fully preparing yourself for Plan B.

But be aware: Plan A almost never, ever by itself breaks up the affair. Plan A is just the setup for Plan B.

You say you want the OW out of "our" life. That's good - but the only life you control is yours. How can you get the OW out of YOUR life?

I am concerned that you are still trying to get your WH to do what you want him to do. You can't get the OW out of "our" life without his cooperation and you don't have that right now.

Again: How can you get the OW out of YOUR life? And are you willing to do what it takes, or would you rather stay with a confirmed cake-eater and fence-sitter and have the OW remain in "our" life?

You will see it here countless times: You can only control yourself. You cannot control a WS and you cannot control the OP. Your WH doesn't want his OW out of his life and he will fight you tooth and nail to keep her there. So, are you going to settle for that, or are you going to take steps to get her out of YOUR life even while your WH chooses to keep her in his?
Mulan
Ok Mulan - So the way I see it, I have to do brief Plan A (currently in effect) and straight into Pitch-black Plan B. I need to begin preparing for Plan B then. But 1st ... I need to expose to MIL, SIL, and more friends. I may go on to the festival (w/o telling H obviously). But what then? What do I say or do when I see them? Casually introduce myself as his W?

As far as getting her out of MY life, the only way I see to do that is to remove myself from HIS life (Plan B right?).
After confronting him about OW, I felt a HUGE sense of relief! I have a new attitude: I want him in my life (only as H not WH), but I don't need him. So, Plan A has been fun the last couple of days.

I am a better version of the Me when we were dating - nice, peppy and fun to talk to ... not boring, drab, and hanging on his every word. Now I get off the phone first - this has confused him I'm sure (he usually ends the conversation). He sounds so startled that I'm ending the conversation and has now taken to asking if he can call me later. My response? "If you want to call later, you can. Your calls are always welcome." Everything said is said with a smile (no, not a smirk) that I'm certain can be heard on the other end of the line.

I'm so proud of myself for FINALLY realizing that I'll be ok on my own. Don't get me wrong - I still want my M to work out, I really do. And I am still willing to do what it takes to save my M. But right now, I need to just work on me ... and not sit around pining for a WH.
TFC, listen to Mulan. If you want to break up your husband's affair, expose it to anyone and everyone who can reasonably be expected to be able to put pressure on the adultery. That doesn’t mean you call your WH’s third cousin over in München, Germany, and you don’t call the local newspaper. I can’t figure out if the OW is a co-worker or not, but if she is, her boss and your WH’s boss are definite targets for exposure.

The boss’s ability to put pressure on the adultery is obvious. I don’t know how large your WH’s firm is. If large enough, they probably have a Human Resources (HR) Director (AKA, Personnel Department). A formal letter, email, phone call can all be effective. The best way, of course, is to go in to the director and let him/her know what is going on. Bear in mind, they’ll be interested because it may violate a policy they have, and also because you can show the HR Director your WH has been using company time and resources to conduct his adultery.

You’ll need to be up front about your adultery. It’ll be painful, but necessary in order to establish your bona fides.

Other targets for exposure include professional associates, professional societies, and organizations your WH or OW belong to, pastors/priests, his family, yours, friends, etc. Don’t worry about how they feel toward your own adultery—people understand two wrongs don’t make a right…and you can even make that point.

Now, understand this, TFC. When you do the exposure, your WH is going to be absolutely furious. “Livid” isn’t going to be the half of it. Other wayward spouses have raged for a week and more about how horrible a thing the betrayed spouse has done. Some have left the marital home for a time, swearing they “were” going to work on the marriage, but now…huh uh…now you’ve REALLY blown it. Etc., etc., etc. It’s happened before, it’ll happen again.

The thing is, it’s all bombast…venting. It’s empty and the wayward one can’t maintain it. It’s really hard work being mad all the time. When the moment passes (even if that moment is a week long), the balloon deflates and the WS must begin facing the consequences of their choices. People get over being mad, TFC. Those of us who’ve been out here for a long while have experienced that anger personally, and have also seen it in other MB clients over, and over, and over again. Don’t worry about “livid.”

Your realization you’ll come out of this sane and whole is an important part of your growth and a crucial beginning for your fight to recover your marriage. Now...as you seem to realize...you can’t let that realization carry you too far down that road. Being self-reliant and confident is good; letting yourself get too emotionally detached from your WH isn’t. Enough said.

Okay, TFC. I think you’re beginning to see how much work you have in front of you to salvage your marriage. It’s going to be tough, but it can be done. Again, I strongly urge you to find a well experienced, pro-marriage couples counselor if Steve Harley isn’t an option.

Hang in there.
Exposure will be difficult, but I can do it. I'll start with the MIL & SIL. He is sort-of self-employed, but she goes to see him when he's working. It isn't a "normal" career, but I don't want to give away too much info. As I mentioned before, he is a public figure and I don't want to ruin his career (especially since I've supported it all these years). I can call people that are friends in his line of work. Most of them won't answer my calls, but it is worth a shot. My family knows already, and my dad can often be an influence in H's life. They'll get together soon, I'm sure.

What do you recommend I say when I call these people? "Hi. This is TFC. I wanted you to know that WH is having an A with OW. Please don't enable this behavior. I want to save my M."????

I have an appt w/ Steve H on Tuesday. I figured while I'm on vacation is a good time to get my plan into action.

Btw - I picked up "Not Just Friends" today. I'm tempted to leave it out on the counter when he's home, but I really need to read it first! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So, after exposure, what's Step 2?
I don't know the individuals you'll be speaking to, TFC, so it's impossible to give you a script. It wouldn't do any good anyway because such conversations take on a life of their own after the first few words. The important things are to know your subject matter intimately and then just take a deep breath, open your mouth and start talking. When you do that, the hard part's over. It's like that first day in school back in first grade. Once you started the first small conversation with that young person next to you, the "mountain" became a mole hill, right? Once you do this thing, it becomes a mole hill too.

Good on you. Stay with Steve H's advice. He can get an astounding information from you in a few minutes of telephone conversation and can give you personalized advice.

After exposure, time slows down a little for you. You have time to read Not "Just Friends"and anything else you want to. You do a great Plan A (including setting a time limit for it) and start formulating a Plan B.

Please read Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" thread as soon as you can and remember Plan A is really all about you and making you the person you've always wanted to be. Typically, Plan A folks begin working out to tone up their bodies, they take classes in those subjects they've always wanted to, read the classics they've always meant to, etc., etc. To my mind, Plan A, is a phase that works on the mind of the wayward one and shows them what they're taking a chance on losing. It's also during this phase you learn (perhaps anew) about patience...because it seems like nothing is happening and it goes on "forever."

Stay with it, TFC, and don't forget we're here with you. Bearing in mind you need your anonymity, let us know what Steve H has to say, okay?
BTW, click on the link below to the "Exposure 101" thread here on MB. Lots more info there.
Thanks so much! H & I had an appt w/ SH a couple of weeks ago, so luckily he is already aware of my sitch.

Thus far, in my Plan A, I have done more reading, therapy, praying, meditation, and yoga than I ever thought I would in such a short period of time. I am finally becoming the person I always aspired to be (snooping on my H excluded). I have become a much better mother (H even commented on it a number of times) and a bit more patient (never my strongest point). I will continue to work on gaining patience.

He & I are continuing to have positive, upbeat conversations on the phone. And I have been cautious not to LB. He just told me that he will be coming home tomorrow night (I must admit I thought he would spend the night out) and asked if he could call me from the road tonight. Believe it or not, as of this moment, he & OW have not talked today (but I'm not holding my breath that it will last)!

I think I will Plan A a little bit longer, and talk to SH about Plan B. I can't thank you enough for your help!

.... off to read "The Carrot & The Stick of Plan A" ....
excellent work time_for_change!

I think the fog is my ww is clearing as well.

Will continue to pray for us all.
Just exposed to SIL - she will be keeping an eye and ear out for me (her hubby & mine are close). She mentioned her concern about his drinking and other possible behavior (i.e. an AFFAIR). She wants our M to survive.

One down ...
Good for you. Now you've gotten that first exposure done and you can see what I meant by saying the conversation "takes on a life of its own," right? Keep up the good work.

Tell us more about his drinking. It's disturbing because if he's an alcoholic, it's a problem that will have to be solved before MB principles can be effective. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Technically I suppose SIL counts as 3 down ... she'll tell her H and mom before I can even dial their numbers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He needs to slow down on the drinking, but I wouldn't call him an alcoholic. He has been going out and drinking a lot more since DDay. It must be difficult to think with a clear head when drunk and/or hungover. He tends to blow off steam with a late night and a few cocktails, but it usually only lasts a day or so. We are just worried that it doesn't seem to be slowing down. (Btw - his OW is a party-girl, which of course enables this behavior.)
Quote
After confronting him about OW, I felt a HUGE sense of relief! I have a new attitude: I want him in my life (only as H not WH), but I don't need him. So, Plan A has been fun the last couple of days.

I am a better version of the Me when we were dating - nice, peppy and fun to talk to ... not boring, drab, and hanging on his every word. Now I get off the phone first - this has confused him I'm sure (he usually ends the conversation). He sounds so startled that I'm ending the conversation and has now taken to asking if he can call me later. My response? "If you want to call later, you can. Your calls are always welcome." Everything said is said with a smile (no, not a smirk) that I'm certain can be heard on the other end of the line.

I'm so proud of myself for FINALLY realizing that I'll be ok on my own. Don't get me wrong - I still want my M to work out, I really do. And I am still willing to do what it takes to save my M. But right now, I need to just work on me ... and not sit around pining for a WH.

[color:"green"] THIS is a winner's attitude ... very Plan A-ish

good for you

Pep [/color]
A post from Pep! Yay! I admire you!

I am so proud that I somehow pulled up my bootstraps and got this newfound attitude. I am a more confident and happy woman. I feel so much better about myself and am finally forgiving myself for my A, as I know I am a much better person now. I still have work to do on me, but that's a lifelong journey right? My H seems to notice this attitude too, and is talking to me more. The beach trip w/ DD and the dog should be good for me too.

You know, I always did for everyone else and never for myself (until my A). Now I am doing for me - and in a healthy way. I suppose now I can truly say I am a Plan A-er! And proud of it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 03/31/07 04:44 PM
I now have proof ... the dumba** left pics of he and a OW#2 in his car. I took them. They are now with all my other proof.

Looks like I go straight to Plan B???
TFC,

Why would you go to plan B??? Do you understand you only go to plan B after you have done a great plan A? Do you understand you only leave plan A once you start to feel your love bank drain?

Plan B is not to affect him, although it might. It is to protect what love you have for him so that you can endure until the end of the A.

TFC, how long did your H work to try and save the marriage once he found out about your A? Did he just up and leave? Did he give up? You have really only started plan A a few days ago. You are starting to get the hang of it as Pep pointed out. What is the message you want to send him?

It really is your call, but if you go plan B without a good plan A, you might just lose him. Perhaps that is what you deep down want, I don't know. You did head off with another man already during this marriage.

You need to look in YOUR heart and decide what you stand for, and what you can stand. You then need to set some goals. If it is continued plan A, you need to get a plan. If it is plan B, you need to get a plan.

Heck Harley even states that a DIVORCE should be POJA'd. Think about that.

Knowing he is an A and having proof, does not automatically throw you out of plan A.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: IHadEnough Re: Now how photo evidence ... Plan B???? - 03/31/07 05:30 PM
I like your style on exposure! Good for you. But I also see that you are talking about going to Plan B. I for one do not think that any spouse should put up with cheating. But I do have a question for you? I have not read your whole thread but what was your husband like before your affair?

I ask this because if I got the story right you had an affair and not only that you had it with his friend? If I have all of that right I cannot imagine anything to be more devastating to your husband. I know my wife’s affair was the worst thing to ever happen to me but if it would have been with one of my friends I just can't imagine that.

In his mind now he may want to know what it was like. Why were you willing to throw everything away for another guy. I am sure he is tormented by the thought of being with you a woman that he loves but would betray him. If he just forgave you then you would have had all of the fun and just come back to the marriage with no consequences. And then he thinks what about the next time you cheat. I know you would never do that but I bet you said that before your first affair.

Let me just ask why should he choose you instead of the OW? All I want to say is there has to be a good reason. If you already did a great plan A then OK maybe he would see a reason to choose you.

But if his thoughts are of you with his friend then you may be making a mistake. Otherwise I agree with you I would not put up with him cheating. Also for a man the worst thing I thought could happen was for your wife to sleep with another man but the worst thing would probably for your wife to sleep with your brothers or friends. That would be even worse.

Again, I am just asking the question. I divorced my wife for cheating so I can understand where he is at but then he should maybe have just divorced you. He is not entitled to have other girlfriends.

Just wanted to throw those questions out there.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 03/31/07 05:31 PM
I feel like he left them there on purpose, like he's been trying to push me away these last 3 months. He never really tried to work on the M after finding out about my A.

I thought everything was going to be ok ... he called me from the road last night to keep him awake. We talked again this morning. He even asked why I keep doing nice things for him when he does nothing in return.

When I dropped him off this morning, we took his car. He kept commenting that there were all sorts of things in the car for me to get pissed about. Its like he WANTED me to see them!

I don't want to lose my M. I don't want to go into Plan B ... but I don't think he wants in it at all. I just don't know what to do!

Tell me ... please?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Now how photo evidence ... Plan B???? - 03/31/07 05:32 PM
no advice from me but I have a comment......

So what is the photo evidence? is it a OW riding in passenger side of vehicle or more?

You are starting to reap some benefits from Plan A by bringing the H home to you while you try to save ur M. Or am I missing something from previous posts. I dont get this up and down bit.

You hv started exposure to those that can help u restore ur M. SIL was a good move on your part.

Plan B would entail some one being forced from the home. Total communicaton blackout.Seems counterproductive at the moment. Have u confronted the OW per Harley advice?

Plan B might be what the B(W)H just needs to move on with his life. JMHO.
Photos are of them kissing on the face (not lips), laughing, him grabbing her breast, her exposing her breast and him leaning in to it, etc. This is the OW#2 - out of town woman, not the one I confronted him about. I thought OW#2 was gone ... obviously not.

The up & down is just my emotions ... I need to grab hold of reality here and figure out what to do. I am trying to remain calm (very difficult).

Do I tell him I have the pics? Do I ask him to come home when he's done today so we can talk?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Now how photo evidence ... Plan B???? - 03/31/07 06:44 PM
I think Dr. Harley's suggestion to you your husband is motivated by revenge is becoming more likely all the time and now your WH has upped the ante in a game designed to provoke you into something. Not only has he “gotten even” with you with OW#1, now he’s upped the ante with OW#2 and he’s waiting for your response. Has he let you see some posed (staged, as it were) pictures to anger you and drive you away?

You have that appointment with Steve H on Tuesday. If you can hold off and not react to this provocation, please get his professional advice (and be sure to let him know about Dr. Harley’s analysis).

Personally, I suspect your WH has given up and wants out of the marriage but lacks the internal fortitude to tell you. The staged photos were left where you would probably find them. They’re a shock to you and I have to wonder if he was nice to you all week long on the phone in order to heighten the impact. If he’s playing that game, it sure seems to be a very calculated, cruel one. It seems he wants to set up an adversarial relationship instead of recovering a warm, loving one…to what end?

For what it’s worth, he may be trying to goad you into filing for divorce first so he can be the “good guy” in the whole thing. The ends justify the means in his mind. It’s not a very mature thing to do, but it’s not unknown. You’d be the best judge about whether it’s in keeping with some part of his character.

TFC, it might be a smart thing to do if you were to make a preliminary visit to a mean, vicious, bulldog of an attorney. When a WS begins act in an “over the top” fashion, I think it’s always appropriate to protect one’s self and one’s finances to make sure the WS isn’t looting the checking and savings accounts, etc. I emphasize the word “preliminary” in this, okay?

Also, place those pictures in a safe place somewhere outside your home and in a place where your WH has no access. Perhaps save one of them to confront your WH with, if you choose that option. If worse comes to worst, those photos may come back to bite WH in the posterior, even if they are posed and “innocent.”

Things don’t look good at this point, TFC, but you will come out the other side of these difficulties sane and whole, as you yourself found out this week. Don’t let go of that determination. This is a big bump in the road, but it’s one you can recover from. Even if your WH has begun trying to push you away, that can be reversed with some good couples counseling. Let Steve H. be your guide in that, okay?

Hang in there, lady.
TFC,

You are making assumptions. Do you know how old those pictures might be? OW #2 could be out of the picture or she could not.

My point??? Don't work off of assumptions. What you do know is that your H has had or is having inappropriate interactions with this woman, and you have the proof.

We could speculate that he is doing this to let you know how he felt/feels. It might be true, it might now. In my mind it makes little difference.

Here is something to consider. Normally, recovery or even getting into recovery can take 3 months or more. You are just at three months. It sounds as if your Plan A is working. Why do I say this? You have him confused. He is asking why are you "nice" to him. He is thinking about you, and it is in good terms based on your plan A actions.

Recovery starts when the spouses start thinking about one another again. You are thinking about him now instead of OM. He has OW #1 or #2 or both on his mind, BUT he has on his mind what you DID to him, AND..... what you are doing now.

Can you see the conflict? Conflict is good TFC. It makes him think and address things that are hurting him. I will take you at your word about his normal moral approach to marriage and his vows. I am guessing that the only way to justify his behavior with the OWs is to state to himself that the marriage over. He justifies this by thinking about what you did to him with your affair, and that hurts. THEN, he thinks about what you are doing, and it does not hurt, it makes him feel good even if he doesn't seem to be responding.

Girl the man is NOW offically confused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You need to keep him confused and show him that YOU are worth the risk, and to him coming back will be a huge risk.

You can do as you wish, exposing to in-laws is probably going to put a damper on the A he is in because it reminds him he is married and he is cheating.

I would say keep plan A going. You have PROOF that the affair is/was going on, but you knew that already. So nothing has changed except that you do know for sure now. Relax, you now know what you are dealing with, before you were still a bit unsure.

I think you should continue plan A for awhile. 6 months seems to be a milestone for some reason, sometimes 1 year is as well. Who knows what may happen when he hits 6 months if you are still in the game.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL
Thank you. His parents just came over to drop off some things for DD to take to the beach. While they were here, I pulled MIL aside and told her. She is disgusted, to say the least. She gave me money and told me to protect myself. She is a therapist and thinks I should tell him its time to call a truce and move toward recovery or call it quits. She said his behavior is immature and unacceptable.

I already have an appt w/ the meanest D lawyer in the city when I get back from vacation. I have pulled all my funds from the joint account and moved them to one of my own to protect my finances.

He just called and was being "friendly", but was analyzing everything I said. I didn't tell him I found the photos. He asked what time he needed to be home tonight - something he hasn't asked since before DDay.

So I have to wonder ... was all this just to get even? Or does he really want out?
JL - I agree that remaining in Plan A is in order. After I calmed down, I realized that. Now, do I let him know I have the photos?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Now how photo evidence ... Plan B???? - 03/31/07 07:47 PM
TFC

posters like longhorn and jl have lots of wisdom written between the words. I have spent countless hours (~100's) reading theirs and other posts for the last 2 yrs.

My advice is to read - some of the long time posters have a calm, conversation way of writing which seems to soothe the rawness of emotions. Read the posts/advice from JL to others in the same kind of sitch.

This forum has much to offer in learning about marriages, relationships and in short life in general.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Now how photo evidence ... Plan B???? - 03/31/07 08:01 PM
TFC, I hadn't realized you were at the three-month point in your Plan A. It's important because Dr. Harley advises a Plan A implemented by BW should last only an average of three months, not six. Please make certain to let Steve H. aware of how long you've been at this, okay? Part of Dr. Harley's strategy is to end Plan A before one loses one's love for the WS and SH will need all the information in order to advise you correctly.

I'm glad you've already taken steps to safeguard yourself. A preliminary visit...heck, even filing a petition for divorce does not set in motion anything that cannot be halted and reversed in an instant. In some cases, I think the simple act of being served with divorce papers is a "culture shock" and can be enough to wake up a WS.

Lady, you don't have to decide today if he's playing a game to hurt you or intends to push you away to get out of the marriage. Let the pot boil for a while and watch what he’s doing. You’ve been able to detect him “analyzing” everything you say just today. You’ll find out a lot more if you sit back a little and wait.

Whatever his aim, TFC, he’s being deceitful in this whole transaction. Were I you, I’d keep to the high ground. Don’t play his game.

I think you’ve enough evidence to assume you were intended to find the pics so…sure, let him know you found the photos, and ask him what he thought he was going to gain by you finding them? Find out what he expects you to do about them, now that you have them (and are securing them where he can’t get them back).

Be calm. He’s expecting the opposite.

Your MIL will probably be applying some pressure very soon. WH won’t expect that. Your calmness will create more consternation and things will begin percolating in his alien little mind. Pressure is a good thing to happen to affairs. Stress exposes cracks and exploits them, making the fantasy corrode away to nothing. Let's see what a little pressure from SIL and MIL does to the boiling pot, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 03/31/07 09:42 PM
I must admit I wasn't in a good enough/solid Plan A until this week. Before I would still talk about R & M. But his behavior has been going on for almost the full 3 mos. and I have been trying my best to Plan A. Tonight I will ask about the photos. Standing firm in "no excuses" and remaining calm will be a challenge, but I think I can do it!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 03/31/07 10:36 PM
Plan A's are never perfect. They can't be; too many emotions involved.

It'll be interesting to see what he thinks he's doing. Be calm, TFC, and don't let anything he says hurt you. Remember, it's the alien talking, not him.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/01/07 05:18 AM
TFC,

Of course you tell him. This is called "radical honesty". The surprise will be that you continue plan A. Your MIL's advice is good to a point, but his being immature about handling your A and getting into one of his own, is not really a surprise is it? Most people don't have a lot of experience in dealing with the emotional pain an affair causes. Cut him some slack.

He is NOT in withdrawal TFC, he is in conflict and that is good for you IF you want to remain married.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/01/07 03:03 PM
Well, he didn't come home until 3:30 am, and he certainly wasn't sober. He was belligerent and nasty. I calmly asked him to leave the room. His parents are waiting to talk to him until DD and I get to the beach. So, we still haven't talked. Looks like it will have to happen today.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 03:33 PM
Well, we talked and were O&H with each other. He admitted that OW#1 had developed into an emotional relationship and was ending it. This photo-girl was a plot to piss me off. And OW#2 was nothing more than a friendship. He doesn't trust me, I don't trust him. He thinks he wants a D. I told him I had a session tomorrow w/SH ... he asked if we could do it together next week instead. He says he doesn't want to be M anymore, but then turns around and says maybe we should both talk to SH. The man seems confused. And I am too.

Keeping Plan A in effect as long as humanly possible ...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 03:37 PM
tfc, he is full of crap, which you can see. Keep your appt with Steve Harley, you don't need your H there right now.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 03:43 PM
LOL ... full of crap altogether? or in thinking about D? or in waiting on our appt w/ SH?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 03:45 PM
Quote
LOL ... full of crap altogether? or in thinking about D? or in waiting on our appt w/ SH?

Full of crap about everything, especially his silly reasoning about why he was with that woman. It is all fogbabble.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 03:46 PM
Quote
This photo-girl was a plot to piss me off.

This was particularly cute. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 03:56 PM
Wasn't it!?! He has agreed to give me her phone number so that I can call her myself. I want to be sure that there are no more of these pics that can be posted on the internet. I explained that DD, her teachers, and our families don't need that embarrassment. He also agreed to think about calling OW#1 in front of me to end it.

So here we are ... seems as though we're back on the fence?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/02/07 05:13 PM
TFC, in SAA, there's an example of a Non-contact letter. Phone calls are so insubstantial, don't you think? I'd challenge him to put it in writing.

BTW, has MIL said anything to him yet?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Now how photo evidence ... ??? - 04/07/07 10:21 PM
Just got back in town ... I had a lot of time to think about things and must admit my Plan A sucked this week. He is really pissy that every day I ask if they have had any contact, but he at least sort of answers me. MIL & FIL had nice loooooooooooong chats with him about his behavior. They told him it would be one thing if I was unwilling to work on the M, but I have shown great strength of character with all I have done to try to improve the M. They have encouraged him to think things through and stop his childish behavior. We made a deal to go one week not talking about the M and getting along, really trying. I am at least holding up my end, we'll see how things progress.

Before I went out of town with DD, he said that he had his mind all made up for D when he got back in town and after spending less than 24 hrs with me, he's confused again. (But his passwords still include OW's name - lovely!) We have a whole week starting tomorrow of him being in town. Tomorrow we are doing family Easter lunch with his parents. MIL & I agreed this is a good opportunity for him to see what could-be, so we are making it extra-special (but not obvious). I need to ramp up my Plan A this week! Any other suggestions?
Also -
Longhorn, I read Not "Just Friends" this week ... what a fantastic book!

MEDC - If you still look at my thread ... I also read Emotional Blackmail and Obsessive Love this week.

Now I am starting The Seven Principals of Making Marriage Work ... I have become a book-aholic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oh! And, over vacation I talked to the girl from the pics. Get this ... SHE'S AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER!!! Nice. I want that kind of woman teaching my DD. Anyway, she is dating one of the other guys in the photos. I was super-nice about letting her know that I have them, asked if there were any more (there aren't), letting her know that I didn't particularly appreciate her breast in my H face, and that my concern was DD seeing something like this. She apologized for them and we ended the conversation amicably ... I wanted to be sure she couldn't hang up thinking "what a *itch"!

Also, H wasn't even sure about ending his A over the phone. So, I'm thinking that a NC letter will be difficult to get. I'm guessing a full-fledged Plan A is in order?
One more, and I'm done today ... sorry they've just been adding up over the week!

Fogese???
WH (Tues.): I don't like sleeping in the house alone. Its just not the same without you all here.

WH (Today): It just doesn't feel like home here anymore, I feel sick being here. Its so lonely when the house is empty.

Well, honey, which is it?
Told you you'd find that book interesting, TFC. Now to leave it laying out somewhere WH might just pick it up and thumb through it. Some yellow stickie's for bookmarks and highlights at particularly relevant passages might spur some thought for when he’s ready to resume human form again and actually begin thinking.

On that note, remember the alien doesn’t think -- it only emotes. Only nonsensical gibberish comes out of its mouth so don’t try to interpret the fog-speak. Attempting to assign meaning to its words, or find hope in them isn’t productive. It's not time yet.

How was Easter dinner?
Quote
Oh! And, over vacation I talked to the girl from the pics. Get this ... SHE'S AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER!!! Nice. I want that kind of woman teaching my DD.


Sort of the way I feel about any wayward and their involvement with kids. My ex used to get up in the morning... leave her "friend" and go to teach Sunday school.

Glad you read the books. Sounds like you have been doing a lot to work on you.

As far as your H being foggy... I just don't see it in his actions or words. Sounds to me like he is hurt and not sure that he wants to be back home or not. It is a big decision for him since getting back with you means he will need to confront his lack of trust in you and deal with his feelings regarding your infidelity. Sometimes it is just easier to walk away. Keep working on you and hopefully he comes around.

MEDC
I have done a LOT of work on me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

MEDC - what makes you think he isn't in some fog? (I realize that some of it is certainly pain from my A.)

Saturday night, he came home really late and had forgotten his house key. I had tried to call him several times to let him know and ask where I should hide a key, but he didn't answer his phone. So, when he called to get me to let him in, I answered joking with him about leaving him out there (not meanly) b/c he didn't answer my calls. Obviously I let him in. He came in the door, picked me up, and started kissing me like he hasn't in years! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> He went on and on about missing me ... but I just attributed it to alcohol (but must admit it was hard not to get encouraged). He admitted that he had seen OW for a bit that night (in public) and that he had told her a few days ago that I was keeping an eye on them (still don't know the full conversation). I'm afraid I've only driven them further underground by exposure, but the in-laws keep putting pressure on him to cut it out. I explained to him that he needn't maintain a friendship with someone (i.e. OW) who isn't a friend of the M.

Longhorn -
Easter dinner was good. At first, he just sat on the sidelines and watched us all be one big happy family. After a bit, he decided to join in. DD asked us something related to her toddler years, so MIL took the opportunity to bring out a photo album to show her ... and spent extra time on the photos of the 3 of us. She's great! At dessert, we were all seated and he got up from the table to get something extra for my plate. It was thoughtful.

So we spent the rest of the day as a family - he even kept off the cell phone! After we put DD to bed, he asked if I wanted to watch a movie with him. So, we did. I got up to get laundry to fold and he asked where I was going ... I explained what I was doing and he said "Just relax, sit down and watch the movie with me".

I woke up this morning and he was cuddled up to me in bed ... I know, I wasn't going to sleep in the same bed! But I went to bed alone - I don't know when he came to bed, but I didn't realize it until this morning.
So, the messages I get are mixed - pretty common, I'm sure. He does nice things here and there that give me hope, but then I find out stuff like this. I keep wondering if I should just let him go, but then something [higher power maybe?] tells me to hang in there and keep trying.

I asked him out for this Friday night ... he said "probably". Followed by "The physical aspect of our marriage has never been an issue. We've always joked that our marriage was based on sex, but that's not really a marriage. The other side of things is just weird right now." I responded with understanding, but also let him know that M takes work ... especially the emotional side. I explained that I had asked about Friday so that we could spend more time together, this would help in working on that other side of things. But things are awkward between us at times, and I don't know how to get past that uncomfortable silence.
More proof ... they HAVE been spending the night together. So far, the only proof is of them "snuggling" (that's how she put it in the email), but at least I know he's lied about spending the night with her. And, they started talking way back in May 2006. For the most part, it appears to be everyday average conversation, but her interest in him (back then) is obvious. I thought I always knew about his female friends ... obviously not this one (though I've met her on several occasions).
I was just told that I put the final nail in the coffin this morning. I confronted him about spending the night with her ... he finally admitted to it, but swears there was no sex. I told him that as long as he lives in our home, he was to have no contact with her. (I was over the cake-eating and fence-sitting.) He says he lied about it b/c he knew it was wrong. I was told told that by my snooping and confronting I've put the final nail in the coffin. That he might have stayed had I let him get it all out of his system. That things were great when I just let him do what he wanted to and said nothing. That he didn't understand why I couldn't just let go. That all this was my fault (I'll accept part of the blame). That he was going to get D papers today.

He said something like "Yeah. I had a friendship, it got a little too emotional. So what? After what you did to me! Its not an affair."

What have I done??? Why didn't I just shut-up and let him have his little revenge A and come back home? Why couldn't I just let things be? What can I possibly do to make things right again?
Posted By: LostBoy68 Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 01:34 PM
TFC

I don't think you're done yet. Everything he said was straight out of the WS playbook. Yes, your sitch is a different than the normal A, but don't get discouraged.

I'm sure the pros will be around soon to provided help. Just keep your head on straight.

LoBoy
Posted By: SaturnRising Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 01:39 PM
Hi there, time...
I was in the same situation as your husband. I had a revenge affair, and my husband ended it by snooping and confronting me.

I was SO MAD at him for reading my email and "shedding light" on my behavior. I felt entitled to have an affair, to have some happiness in my life. After all, I deserved it, right?

Wrong. My husband did the right thing; I see that now. He saved me from making a huge mistake and now I'm grateful to him. It took a long time for me to see this. My husband was patient, and doing a perfect Plan A (he didn't know about MB, he was just doing what he felt was right) while I was in withdrawal. I have a lot of respect for him now, looking back at that awful year.

You can do this. You did the right thing; your husband will see that with time. I know it's hard right now- try to keep faith and it will get better.

Blessings,
~Saturn
Thank you both! I am going to Plan A my fanny off now, I suppose that's my only hope. Though this morning I told him not to bother living in our house while he's still "friends" with her. But I am just not at all ready for Plan B.

A few more choice words he had to say this morning:
"You're the biggest mistake I ever made. How does it feel to hear that?"
"I'm only still married to you for DD & sex, but that's not a marriage. I guess we'll have to get divorced."
"Can't we just go back to the way it was when you let me do whatever I wanted and you just worried about yourself & DD?"
"Its not an affair because of what you did first."
Posted By: SaturnRising Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 01:53 PM
Please try not to listen to his words. He's hurting and wants to hurt you. Put the earmuffs on. I said a lot of awful things to my husband- I didn't mean them.

He will be difficult while he withdraws from the OW. Try to give him "a soft place to land" after he works through his emotions. Be better than her. It will be difficult, because she is a "fantasy", but worth it.

Hang in there-
~Saturn
I know that they had a tiff yesterday, which accounts for his bad mood last night (she was upset he didn't stay with her on Sat. night). I will go find my earmuffs (LOL).

Ooooh! I got to use Orchid's Reverse Babble ... so exciting!

So, do I keep my mouth shut about her for a bit (while keeping a watchful eye)? What do you suggest?
I just got the ILBNILWY speech ...

What am I supposed do with all these things he says!?
Posted By: Owl Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 06:01 PM
Quote
What am I supposed do with all these things he says!?

Listen to them for ways you can improve your relationship with him, identify ways to meet his EN's, and ignore the rest as alien speech from the mothership.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 06:44 PM
TFC, your husband is following the “Wayward Spouse Handbook” right down the line. Succinctly, you don't do anything about what he says except continue with your Plan A, and perhaps do some of Orchid's reverse babble when the opportunity presents. When you do your Plan A, always have in mind Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A," okay? Plan A doesn't mean you become a doormat.

I forget. Have you finished your exposure plan? Did MIL and SIL have some chats with him on Easter as I think you said they were going to do?
MIL, SIL & FIL all chatted with him while DD & I were on vacation ... they are all very upset with his behavior! He is feeling the pressure for sure. MIL & FIL told him he would be stupid not to quit this behavior and try at the M, but he is in his own little world.

I made it clear to him today that as long as he in a relationship with OW, he cannot stay in our home ... then he went off and called her right after meeting up with me this afternoon!
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 08:14 PM
rememeber that you have no legal right to keep him out of your home. I thought you had stopped snooping on him... including his phone records.
I had quit snooping for a bit ... obviously that didn't last. I am giving him opportunities to earn back trust by telling me the truth. I have given him all my passwords to snoop as he pleases as well.

I know I can't kick him out of the house ... but I can ask him nicely to leave if he isn't going to commit to the M. I am trying to be as nice as possible about everything, but I thought I made it clear that I will not tolerate an ongoing affair in our marital home - just as he wouldn't.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/10/07 10:58 PM
I wouldn't be too concerned about legalities and such. In Texas, such things are not a matter of criminal law so the cops can't make a person leave a home where they've established residence, and they can't make a person in possession of a home accept another person into that home. It's a matter of civil law and WH would have to file suit if you happen to change the locks and stuff like that. Mind you, you'd lose the suit, but it's highly unlikely this would go that far. I wouldn't worry about that right now. Deal with it if and when it comes around.

Keep on snooping too. Until you're absolutely certain the adultery is over, it's the only way you're going to find out the truth.
I came home in a great mood today ... Plan A in full-force. Except he is SOOOOOOO irritated that I was in such a good mood. He actually told me that he called her today, but it was "only a question about [something related to his business]". Whatever. He said she doesn't understand why they can't talk anymore since what they were doing wasn't wrong! Seriously?

But he just took a break to call me tonight - he hasn't done that in a while. Just to chit-chat. Kind of nice. Maybe he's coming around.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/11/07 01:50 AM
Quote
wouldn't be too concerned about legalities and such. In Texas, such things are not a matter of criminal law so the cops can't make a person leave a home where they've established residence, and they can't make a person in possession of a home accept another person into that home. It's a matter of civil law and WH would have to file suit if you happen to change the locks and stuff like that. Mind you, you'd lose the suit, but it's highly unlikely this would go that far. I wouldn't worry about that right now. Deal with it if and when it comes around.


Ummm... you are right... a little. In the USA... the entire USA... a person cannot be deprived of peoperty without due process. The H could come home and break into his own home... since it is his home... noc crime is committed. We went on these calls all the time. No lawsuit is required... just a good strong sledge hammer.
Nothing incredibly exciting yet today ... but I'm wondering when it is that I am supposed to put my foot down about his A? I've known about it for a long time, confronted him the 1st time 2 1/2 weeks ago, confronted him the 2nd time 1 1/2 weeks ago, and have been getting more and more info with each passing day. When do I say "enough is enough"? When do I quit allowing an A to take place right under my nose? If it doesn't end, what do I do then? Plan B? And what else can I do to encourage it to end and get NC?
Posted By: Owl Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/11/07 04:22 PM
You don't allow it to continue under your nose. That's what exposure is all about. Additionally, plan A means you're supposed to let your WS suffer their own consequences of the affair.

Therefore, you continue to show him how much his continued affair hurts you. You continue to expose whenever he contacts OW, you keep the pressure on him for NC to take place...and at the same time keep up the carrot of plan A...make yourself a better choice over OW, by meeting his EN's where you can and making positive changes for yourself.

Make sense?
It does indeed. So, then when do you do Plan B? When you just can't take it anymore?
Posted By: sdguy038 Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/11/07 04:43 PM
Yes, but you need to plan A long enough for WH to see what he will be missing. How well is your plan A going? Have you eliminated LBs and DJs? Have you figured out which of his ENs were going unmet?

Plan B is most effective after a good Plan A.
I think I should Plan A a bit longer ... I think my Plan A has gone pretty good (certainly not perfect). I've eliminated all LBs EXCEPT confronting with evidence of contact with OW - which I refuse to quit doing. Other than that, I think I'm going alright.

His top ENs: SF, Domestic Support, Attractive Spouse, Admiration (in no particular order)

- SF is going unmet at current b/c I don't know if he's sleeping with her. But it was met up until about 3 weeks ago (which is the longest we've ever gone without SF, and this is in the top 3 for us both) ... not sure when I can meet this one again.
- Domestic Support has never been better! I am a better Mom than ever before, and my house is actually clean!
- Attractive Spouse has not ever been an issue with us, but I am in better shape than ever before and he's loving it! And I'm also dressing cuter at home - no more sweats!
- Admiration is the hardest one for me b/c I don't like him a whole lot right now, but I have still done an excellent job of blowing up his ego when I find the right opportunity (especially since I knocked it out with my A). I'm cautious not to go overboard on this one though.

It seems as though the A has died down, but I want absolutely NC ... and he thinks they can just be friends. She doesn't understand how what they were doing was wrong. So, I think I should work Plan A a while longer and try to get another MC session w/ SH so he can explain to H why what they were doing was wrong. Sounds like my best option right?
TFC,

With regard to respect, have you considered how he has handled your A? I mean do you respect him for remaining married? Do you respect him for putting up with your stuff while in the A?

You must understand that plan A is usually measured in months. Plan B is to preserve the love bank when it is starting to go dry.

I know it is hard to read yourself with regard to this, because clearly you found someone else more attractive to you than your H for sometime. So I really don't know how to tell you what your love bank should be for him. But, you will know.

It sounds as if your plan A is doing very well. It also seems from what you have said that it is working. You must recall that plan A is planting seeds and often does not end the A. Exposure (yes part of plan A) will help. Time will help because as Dr. Harley and others have observed most A's end. The issue is the state of things once the A does end.

Your plan A is to minimize the damage from your side, it is to plant seeds, and it is buying you time for the A to end.

Plan B just removes you from the game, but with the idea of slowing the lose of love. Again the idea is that the A will end, and when it does you want to have some love left in the bank for recovery. Recovery takes a lot of love and yes patience.

You are doing well, keep doing it. Oh and exposing when you find contact is NOT an LB unless it is accompaning by a good swearing out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You can state your truths without love busting.

God Bless,

JL
Quote
TFC,

With regard to respect, have you considered how he has handled your A? I mean do you respect him for remaining married? Do you respect him for putting up with your stuff while in the A?

I respect him as a person, but I do not respect his behavior. I certainly respect that he has not yet left the M, but I don't respect that he's getting even. So, I guess the answer to your question is - yes I respect him, but not as much as I could.

Quote
It sounds as if your plan A is doing very well. It also seems from what you have said that it is working. You must recall that plan A is planting seeds and often does not end the A. Exposure (yes part of plan A) will help. Time will help because as Dr. Harley and others have observed most A's end. The issue is the state of things once the A does end.

Plan B just removes you from the game, but with the idea of slowing the lose of love. Again the idea is that the A will end, and when it does you want to have some love left in the bank for recovery. Recovery takes a lot of love and yes patience.

Patience has never been one of my strongest qualities. This situation is certainly testing my level of patience, but I find it growing more and more. I just need to remember to be patient.

Quote
You are doing well, keep doing it. Oh and exposing when you find contact is NOT an LB unless it is accompaning by a good swearing out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You can state your truths without love busting.

I've been careful not to be mean when confronting about contact. Only once did I curse and raise my voice - that was when I confronted about the pictures b/c he was lying right to my face. Otherwise, I've been thanking him for his honesty in hopes that he would continue.

I am just feeling like "where are we going from here?". But I am grateful that contact between them has slowed. It is a step in the right direction.
TFC,

Perhaps I was a bit obtuse. Sorry.

I meant if you respect that he has not left the marriage, tell him. If you respect that he was forced to deal with a lot of pain and did not run, then tell him. My point was to point out areas where you might have developed some respect for him.

You see you clearly showed him you had none with your A. So unlike the more normal BS, you are starting from a position of having shown him little or no respect. That was all I was trying to point out.

TFC, perhaps this will help your patience. He is running right now. He is running from himself and his pain. He will get tired of running and he may already be doing that. You just keep walking along, and you will find him on the side of the road bent over from fatigue. Patience, relentless patience is required. But also take care of yourself in the process you will need your strength.

God Bless,

JL
I see. I will be sure to comment on what I respect about him during our dinner on Friday.

JL - you are amazing! I needed that today ... I can't thank you enough!
Supposedly he ended it with OW today ... I don't know if I believe him, though. And he still wants a D. So why end it with her then?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 03:11 AM
Quote
Supposedly he ended it with OW today ... I don't know if I believe him, though. And he still wants a D. So why end it with her then?


The OW is really not the problem here... she is a symptom of what is wrong in your M. The fact that he may have broken up with her does not fix the fact that your H does not feel safe with you... and with good reason. See... let's just assume for a minute that the OW was the reason he was gone... it would make sense for him to come home when that stimulus is out of the picture. But really, the woman that has kept him away from home (even if not in body) is you. That is where the focus needs to be here... because you may succeed in breaking up their relationship... and still wind up divorced. No, the goal here needs to be to make him feel safe to come home. I can tell you and I have told you this in the past.. you have and are doing some things that would drive me away for good. I don't know if your H feels the same way... but it would drive me nuts. I have seen you be judgemental towards the OW and the school teacher... but remember it was YOU that started this whole mess. That would drive me nuts. The other thing is your judgements about him as a father and the things you will or will not allow (as if you really have any authority over your H... did he have any over you to stop you from screwing your OM?). Snooping is an issue too. I just really believe that while your entire focus should have been on you that you have spent too much time focusing your attention on other people.
I must say that I am still focused on me, but I have also been focused on ending his A so that we can begin to repair our M. Would you then suggest that I just ignore the fact that he's been in an A and only work on me? I think that in order to rebuild the M I have to both end his A and work on myself. I will agree that it was wrong of me to judge the school teacher after what I did. (Btw - she told my H that I was really nice and they should feel bad for talking crap about me.) I have not once forgotten that we wouldn't be in this mess if weren't for my poor choices and selfish behavior. As far as my judgments about him as a father, I feel that I have every right to let him know when his behavior affects our DD. There were a lot of signs that it was affecting her that I haven't discussed here. After talking to his mom, she and I both felt it was important to let him how his behavior was affecting DD and encourage it to change. Which he has done, and I am very grateful for that.

So, if I were your W (and you hadn't left me yet) what would you look for to feel safe? to feel like it might be worth working on? to not run out and get a D?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 01:15 PM
Just a few points... one... your actions harmed your daughter... but I have heard about what a great mom you are... a protector for your child and how your A never took away from your daughter. I hope you know that is all hogwash.

I would be looking for

honesty... you are NOT being honest with him right now
integrity
remorse
understanding of how you hurt me ( I think you miss the boat here).
patience
patience
patience(I think we both can agree that this is a major issue for you)
A realization that you are not my mother or keeper... that I am at the very least, your equal.
I would expect to see you focused on you!

TFC... YOU have major control issues. YOU cannot end his affair... if that is what it is. You may hope it ends, you may do things to that end... but you cannot end it. And you always have a little BTW comment after you admit something wrong... see above... let me tell you, BTW, anyone that cheats on their spouse is not "really nice." Talking crap about you was most likely deserved since there was a lot to talk about.

I have offered support to a lot of FWS here. I have to say though that there is something in your appraoch that still would rub me the wrong way. YOu have the control thing and something that almost seems like arrogance. IMHO, you should be humbled that your BH is even willing to speak to you right now...and that this attitude would result in you being less judgemental and more understanding of what you have brought into this marriage. AT the very least... it would give you patience and a softer heart when dealing with your H.

MEDC
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 05:52 PM
As you can see, TFC, there are a myriad of posters out here and some are more insightful than others. When in doubt, always go back to the principles Dr. Harley has expressed in SAA and on his radio show. BTW, you can "ignore" a user such as me, or anyone else, by simply clicking on my/his/her screen name and then clicking on "ignore this user."

Of course you should be working to smash this affair. It's not even remotely a control issue. It's standing up for the principles expressed in your wedding vows. It's what we do here on MB. We work to end adultery and help folks recover from it. Confronting your WH about his continued adultery is not a LB, btw. It's setting a boundary and every spouse has that God-given right.

When doubters seem to abound, TFC, go to Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" and Dr. Harley's SAA to refresh your memory of what you should be doing.

Hang in there, TFC. Trust your instincts and keep working for a true recovery in your marriage.
Thanks for your input Longhorn - I have appreciated having your opinions and advice during this difficult time.

Well, he didn't really end it yesterday - like I thought. I didn't handle things the MB way ... I told him just to go ahead and leave the house. If he's not living with me and we're separated I can't say anything about it, but I've asked him nicely and he's lied and said he ended it when he really didn't. He can do whatever he wants if we're not still M.

So now he says he just ended it over the phone. I just don't know if I can believe him.

I suppose I need to re-read SAA tonight ...
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 07:15 PM
yeah... its funny all the posters out there with ni insight... Melody Lane, Big K, Mrs. W... all gave the same advice on this thread earlier on. Guess all of those should be on block too.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 07:26 PM
Skimming through SAA to refresh your thoughts can't ever be wrong. I do it also and I'm divorced. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TFC, your WH is foggy and sitting on the fence. You must expect him to lie, to be defensive, and to attempt to prolong his contact with OW as long as he can. That's human nature. It's not very attractive, but it's natural. Accept that, do your confrontations and do your best Plan A, while preparing for Plan B. Don't worry about slips. No one does a perfect Plan A so don't expect that of yourself. Too much pressure. Telling him to leave wasn't that serious a fall from the wagon anyway.

Like I said, hang in there. Try to find whatever peace you can through your Plan A efforts, your friends, and family, okay?
Thanks a million ... I feel much better about it now. Now I am going to have to Plan A better than ever during his withdrawal period (assuming its really over).
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 07:30 PM
Quote
[Skimming through SAA to refresh your thoughts can't ever be wrong. I do it also and I'm divorced/quote]

yep.

[quote] Telling him to leave wasn't that serious a fall from the wagon anyway


well, I would normally agree with you... BUT since he did not ask her to leave over her affair, it might have a bigger impact.

I bumped your other thread TFC... it is good reading for you.

MEDC
He asked me to leave, but I didn't. Instead, I chose to immediately (1)go into NC, (2)have an STD test, (3)go to IC, (4)renew my relationship w/ God, and (5)begin doing what I should have done as a W all along.

Now I've asked him to leave if the A isn't over - same as he did. There's no sense in us pretending to be M while he continues his A right under my nose. As soon as he found out about mine, it was over ... I expect the same. If he wants to continue it, he can - but he can move out and do it instead. I am asking nothing more of him than he asked of me.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/12/07 08:54 PM
Those are five excellent things to do when one has wronged one's spouse. I'm not sure what more you could do except that I would love to see you and WH in couples counseling. A good one, such as SH, can provide a forum where both of you could feel free to air all problems and help you and WH resolve them. I hope the day he'll reengage in discussions with SH comes soon.

Keep your chin up, lady.
Longhorn - you always cheer me up. At times your advice has been tough, but always presented in a caring way. Thank you.

H is in an even worse mood now ... I'm guessing withdrawal is setting in. I am going to talk to him this weekend about another session with SH. But I thought I should wait a few days first. I suppose I'll assume it is really over until proven otherwise, or shall I consider it still going on until proven otherwise?

Either way, reviewing SAA tonight after I do our taxes.
FINALLY! A good day! We spent most of the day together today and got along, without weirdness! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

We flirted, joked, and enjoyed each others company. He opened up about the conversation w/ OW yesterday ... apparently she is livid that she "wasted her time" with a "pansy who will let [me] manipulate [him] for the rest of [his] life"! So its over. *Keeping fingers crossed*

I told him how much I respected his choice and how much I appreciate it.

Let's hope we can keep this up!
Day 2 of goodness ... my, my, my how nice it is when the fog begins to clear!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/15/07 03:32 AM
Good news, TFC. However, beware of a false recovery, okay? Trust, but verify. Uh...what are some other cautionary clichés? I can’t think of any off the top of my head. I’m sure you understand you can enjoy his apparent separation from OW, but you need to be careful. To me, it seems he’s skipping the normal withdrawal process and moving right to the first steps in reconciliation. It’s not impossible, just very unusual.

Some day soon, you need to start applying the recovery steps in SAA. I think an NC letter needs to be prepared and sent. If she’s upset now, the letter will help settle the matter.
I certainly agree with you. I sort of skipped the withdrawal period because of anger with OM, so I'm hopeful that this is what he is doing as well.

I took notice how different he was toward me when he had and hadn't talked to her ... I could always tell when he had b/c he had so much more anger toward me. I am still being cautious of false recovery, but I'm taking the time to enjoy having my H back (for the most part). Now we need to get back into MC with SH.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/15/07 06:43 PM
Excellent, TFC.
Well, yesterday I suggested that we go to a certain place to eat lunch ... he said it wasn't a good idea and suggested somewhere else. On the way to the restaurant, he explained that OW & her friends generally hung out at the place I suggested on Sundays and he didn't wish to go there.

We are taking some really positive steps here. I am worried that I am getting too excited about how we are beginning to head in the right direction. How do you stay grounded during this time without being cynical?
I am finding myself doubting this "recovery" more and more. I'm not sure why, but I feel like maybe this is all a facade. I keep wanting to enjoy having this man that resembles my H back in my life, but something has kept me cynical ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/17/07 12:43 AM
It's only prudent to withhold judgment under such circumstances. After all, the term “false recovery” was coined for a reason. I think the proof will lie in how enthusiastically WH participates in counseling, how readily he does the NC letter, adopts radical honesty, etc. We’ll keep our fingers crossed, hoping those mileposts are passed easily and quickly.
We had a conversation tonight - it was ok. What I gathered from the conversation was that he may stay married to me for DD & convenience. I guess that's a start, but I can't help but want more from a marriage than that. I suppose we could grow from that, but only if we both try at it. I see some enthusiasm in trying to be nicer, but I still have my doubts. He's still hiding something, I think. I need openness and honesty - to the nth degree.

Should I try to approach this alone or wait until we have MC?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/17/07 10:53 PM
Well, TFC, I think it's too soon to expect him to strongly commit to the marriage at this point. It’s in the nature of the beast for human beings to resist doing something that would seem to render their past actions foolish and ill-conceived. Have patience, TFC. I don’t know how others think about this, but it might be something best approached in the safe forum offered by a good counselor. Don’t you have a session with SH coming up relatively soon?
We don't have an appointment scheduled as of yet, but I will be scheduling one for (hopefully) next week.

We had a discussion last night about honesty. I explained to him that while I do not expect him to decide right now whether he wants in or out of the M, I do expect us to both be honest from here on out. After a fairly calm discussion about this, we agreed that we must answer any/all questions honestly (the first time) ... I think we POJAd for the 1st time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

He wasn't yet willing to do the EN & LB questionnaires, but he had a lot going on last night. So, maybe when he gets back in town he will do them. I'm trying not to be pushy but I also want him to know that I will do anything I can to help our M.
FYI - OW has emailed him ... it has not been opened. I am curious to see if he is O&H with me about this.

Question - Am I to continue Plan A now or am I even in a "Plan" anymore?
Another positive step! H calls me tonight (from out of town) and says "When you check the phone records, there is a number that belongs to [woman's name] ... she works for [company] and her son is who I'm staying with. He is using her phone for now, so don't freak out and go ballistic. You are welcome to check up on that if you like."

Wow! He's never been that upfront with me before! It is almost questionable. But I think I'll relish in it for a moment anyway! I actually think he's being honest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So, he still hasn't checked email from OW ... good news so far.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/19/07 01:15 AM
Baby steps are just fine. Your marriage didn't get to where it is now overnight, and it won't be repaired quickly either. Sounds like good progress is being made -- very encouraging.

I hope you can get that appointment with SH. It'll be very intesting to see his advice from this point forward.

Good work, Lady! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It will be ... it didn't go the way I thought it would on our 1st session. I would imagine now that there has been double infidelity things will be more difficult. I thought SH would have encouraged us to spend more time together, but didn't. I am hoping we can do a session next week. H goes back to the town of debauchery again in a couple of weeks ... I think that I should be able to go so we establish a presence of our M with the people he was acting inappropriately with. We'll see. Let's hope we can get him to do the EN & LB Qs next week. Baby steps are just fine ... you are right-o Longhorn!
Some things going through my head all night while I wasn't sleeping:

* H has always been in Independent Behavior mode
* I have always needed affection and attention that he is unwilling to give
* H seems unwilling to go through this the MB way
* He is always right, no matter what
* I want a goody-two-shoes marriage from a bad-boy
* Maybe he isn't the marrying-kind?
* Maybe I'm too needy?

No, I'm not rewriting our marital history here ... these are just some things I'm thinking/feeling. I couldn't sleep last night. I had the sickest feeling in my stomach, like something bad was about to happen. I couldn't get things out of my head. I tried to pray, I tried to meditate, I even tried yoga at 3 am. Nothing helped. My mind was too powerful last night ... something isn't right.

Or ... maybe it was just the late-night brownie I had and everything will be fine today. Now I feel like the roller coaster. Is this normal? Am I going crazy?

Any words or 2x4s for me?
Posted By: DeadBunny Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/19/07 03:13 PM
Quote
Some things going through my head all night while I wasn't sleeping:

* H has always been in Independent Behavior mode
* I have always needed affection and attention that he is unwilling to give
* H seems unwilling to go through this the MB way
* He is always right, no matter what
* I want a goody-two-shoes marriage from a bad-boy
* Maybe he isn't the marrying-kind?
* Maybe I'm too needy?

No, I'm not rewriting our marital history here ... these are just some things I'm thinking/feeling. I couldn't sleep last night. I had the sickest feeling in my stomach, like something bad was about to happen. I couldn't get things out of my head. I tried to pray, I tried to meditate, I even tried yoga at 3 am. Nothing helped. My mind was too powerful last night ... something isn't right.

Or ... maybe it was just the late-night brownie I had and everything will be fine today. Now I feel like the roller coaster. Is this normal? Am I going crazy?

Any words or 2x4s for me?

This is exactly what i am going thru and the exact same thoughts right now towards my W.

My problem is very recent less then 2 weeks since i confronted the A and its only been a month or so going on.

I hope it is normal.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/19/07 06:19 PM
Well, I suspect what you're experiencing is a normal human reaction to a highly stressful period. Until now, you've been so heavily involved in your reaction to the WH's infidelity that you've put off actually considering all the implications of what has happened. I think you've been reacting instinctively since you discovered WH's adultery. Now that you have time to take a breath, you're second guessing yourself and wondering if you made the right decision.

I don't think that's wrong or unhealthy. We all take another look at what we’ve obligated ourselves to when there are difficult things to do and when we make serious commitments, dedicating ourselves to a huge amount of work we know will be very emotional draining. Don’t misunderstand me. I support the right of every betrayed spouse to make a conscious decision whether to stay in the marriage or decide to separate one’s self from the betrayer.

The thing is, I think you have to also pay attention to your instincts in making that conscious decision. Instincts are your subconscious mind telling you things it can’t do in a logical process. If your first instinct was to turn away from an OP and rededicate yourself to the marriage, it was for a reason you might not be conscious of right now. If your first instinct was to save your WS from his adultery and bring him back to the marriage, it was because something in you told you it was the right path for you and him.

You married your spouse once for some very good reasons. Examine those reasons also, in addition to your doubts. Your marriage was probably vulnerable before the adulteries occurred – perhaps for some of the reasons you enumerate. Fine…but it doesn’t mean there aren’t good reasons for staying together too.

Dr. Harley wrote the last half of SAA because marriages ARE vulnerable at times. That section of the book is dedicated to healing the vulnerabilities and making the marriage stronger than it was before. Take another look at the passages in SAA, and listen to SH’s advice, okay?

Give this time…a lot of time. There’s no need to make an immediate decision, particularly at 3:00 in the morning, the darkest hour for any human being. Stay with this, TFC. Working at the problems through counseling will show you the proper course.


DB: I don’t know much about your situation, and my response is directed to TFC, but I hope you can read enough between the lines above for your own use. Hang tough, pardner.
I am so humiliated ... that is the worst part. I know he is too. I had an A, in secret (aren't they usually?). He went out and had his right out in the open for everyone to see - introducing her to people and everything. On top of that, in the midst of his A, he decided to tell everyone & their brother about mine (conveniently leaving out the fact that he was in one too at that point). He did things for her that he never did for me - even before my A, when we were "happy". I suppose that is the hardest part. I would have been less upset if he had just had sex with her ... but he didn't - he gave her time, affection, and attention he was never willing to give to me.

However, all along my instincts all along have been to save this M ... so that is what I'll try to do. The waiting sucks. But he is really trying at the M now, so I can't ask for much more than that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Going to an attorney today for a consult. I've had this scheduled for several weeks now. I'm wondering if I should go ahead and have the MSA drawn up? I don't really want to, but in some way I think it might wake-up my H to realize that we aren't going to just live like this ... that things will have to start being worked on in order to stay married.

His MO has been to do what he wants, when he wants - until I get to my breaking point and show that I am serious. Case in point: OW wasn't really broken-up with until I told him that I had found several apartments within his price-range and would happy to place a deposit on one of them so he could move out since he wasn't done with her. After that, he got his you-know-what together and began actually trying at this M.

He's sort of like a teenager sometimes - he'll push until he realizes that he's actually going to get in trouble, and then he straightens out a bit. But he usually goes right back into what he was doing to upset me after I've been placated for a week or two.

So, any tips for me before I go to this appointment today? Any suggestions? Any warnings?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/20/07 01:48 PM
TFC-
Now that the Revenge A is ending and he is moving towards you, you are going to see an atty. I dont get it. What is your goal? The results of Plan A does not happen over night.

I hope the DJ'ing the H here is just venting.

What is a MSA?
He is still talking about D, so I think I should be prepared. I don't expect overnight results, that's for certain. I wasn't trying to DJ, is it DJ when its the truth? We've discussed it numerous times ... he would even admit to being that way. Maybe I came across too harsh. But I don't mean it to be ugly about him, its just the way he is and I accept that. I put it out there so that everyone offering advise would understand what I'm up against for recovery. Not as a vent or tirade about him.

MSA = Marital Separation Agreement ... he wants one (excuse me - he says he wants one).
Well, I went to the meeting ... and I def do NOT want a D!

But, I did get an interesting tidbit:
He cannot sue for D on the grounds of adultery here - well, he can, but it won't be granted. Because he continued to live in the home and remained married following the discovery of my A, its called "condonation" (meaning he legally condoned it and accepted it as part of our M). Not to mention, he had his own A and it would be pointless.

The attorney was actually really nice and encourages trying to work out the M for a period of time before deciding on D.

Hopefully we won't get to the point of ever filing for D. I don't want it ... I hate that we're going through all this. I want so badly for us to work things out. Now, I am even more encouraged to continue Plan A and exhibit patience!
Well ... he checked her email, but did not respond. Did she not get the point? Can't he just block her?

Now, let's see if he tells me about it ...
I'm pretty sure that he will let me know about this contact. Once he does, how do I respectfully, kindly, lovingly request the following?

1. NC Letter to OW
2. Login/passwords to other accounts
3. Blocking OW

(This is all reasonable to request, right? Or am I expecting too much too soon?)
Good news & Bad News ...

Bad News: he lied about contact. I asked if she had tried to contact him in any way, he said no.

Good News: we all went as a family yesterday and adopted a new puppy!
Other Good News: He seems to be in his own sort-of Plan A ... very nice! Asking me questions, paying more attention to me, recognizing things I do for the family. I think he might have even read my EN Questionnaire b/c he's doing things that are listed on there that he never really did before.

I would like to write him a letter. I would like it to list the things that I would like to see happen for recovery. I would also like to know what he would like from me to begin recovery. Is this a good idea? Bad idea? Suggestions?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/23/07 04:20 PM
TFC, I don't know about the letter thing. You and he are working at getting closer together, bit by bit, and a letter seems so impersonal in the context of what you two are achieving. I think this would be one of those things to bring up in front of a counselor (i.e., in a neutral forum).

How's the counseling session plan developing? I think it's vitally important you two get into couples counseling during this period.

About him lying about the attempted contact...he's probably trying to "protect" you from what he thinks would be bad news if you found out. In a way, it's good because of his intent, but it's bad because he's not yet ready for radical honesty. But...can't radical honesty wait a little while, until you and he are in counseling and more comfortable discussing such things? That he's not opened the email is a good sign to me. I'd be inclined to let the details slide for a time in favor of addressing the major issues. What do you think?
We are on a good path here and I don't want to ruin it. I agree with you - those things are best discussed with SH. (And we are discussing when to set up a next appt tonight.)

As far as the email - he did open it, but did not respond. I appreciate him protecting me from its contents, however. He's been honest about the more important things, and has been willing to meet my ENs ... that is probably far more important than telling me about an email that he didn't bother to respond to.

We have actually been able to joke a little bit about each others As ... sick as it sounds. When we were thinking of names for the new puppy yesterday, we each suggested OPs name and laughed it off and said some insult about OP. Seems mean and kinda immature, but I think it shows that we are beginning to be on the same team again ... becoming an "US"!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/23/07 10:34 PM
K, I didn't understand he'd actually opened the email but the reasoning is the same. He's very probably not admitting the receipt in order to keep from introducing what he thinks might be a disruption in the way things are moving now.

Please do check into the counseling. You two need a professional counselor involved in this process so you can get your relationship beyond the next bump in the road, one that will surely come no matter how hard you two try to smooth things out.

BTW, your ability to joke about the adulteries is not unheard of, though it generally doesn't happen until far later in the process. I would think so long as you keep it light and non-accusatory, it's probably a healthy thing to do but there's also a possibility one or the other of you might hit a nerve someday without meaning to. You don't seem to need the advice, but be careful, okay?

Sounds like things are going very well, TFC, but please get with SH or a local, very pro-marriage counselor as soon as you can.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/23/07 11:55 PM
IMO, the joking about your adultery is ridiculous. I can tell you that if I were him... YOU had better never joke about something like that. That would be a major LB and frankly NEVER something to joke about.

Your H's relationship with the OW is not really over untilo such a time is there is NC... and because he did not tell you about the email, I would have appropriate concern about that. I believe you should bring this up to him and see what he says. You should not "appreciate" him failing to be honest with you. In the face of both of you having affairs, I would suggest that there is nothing more important than honesty right now. Both of you let your character and integrity take a vacation.... it is time to reclaim that.
He isn't quite ready for MC yet, but he said that he wants to find an IC for himself soon. I'm still trying to convince him to do the EN Questionnaire.

As far as the joking goes - we have kept it light and about OP, not each other. I guess having some humor about it makes it a little less serious all the time.

Last night, he mentioned letting things be for a while ... no pressure on the M. This is what he feels that he needs to see if we can make a go of it. Which I completely understand. We've enjoyed each others company for the last week - which has been the first of that in a while. Becoming friends again is probably a really good start, wouldn't you say?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/24/07 05:25 PM
You're the one there watching his eyes and his reactions to what you say and do, TFC. Your instincts initially told you he was wandering and now those instincts are telling you to go slow and build this relationship back up incrementally. Keep watching, but I think your instincts can be trusted. The trick will be to not allow "letting things be for a while" extend out too very long, right?

I think becoming friends again is fine. One of the things Dr. Harley recommends in SAA to rebuild the relationship is to spend as much quality time together as you can. You'll see references to "15 hours a week” or more. He even recommends getting away on a long trip together.

I'm sorry he's resisting MC, but that too is almost routine for some folks. Keep working for it, okay? SH or a pro-marriage counselor from your community can help a lot getting past the bumps in the road that will crop up in this process.

Good work, TFC.
Righto! I was just talking to my IC today about setting a time-limit for myself on this "letting things be" thing. So, I figure another 3 months is all I can handle. Too long? Too short? Not sure, but I'll just play it by ear. We certainly need to regain our friendship and our trust before anything else. I will work on him for MC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Longhorn - Your encouragement and calm demeanor are always the exact thing I need when I post here. I can't thank you enough!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/26/07 04:34 PM
How're you doing, TFC?
Thanks for checking in on me! I am doing good! H went out of town yesterday, but made time for a surprise lunch with me first! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We are getting along really well and making great efforts at meeting ENs (I just wish he would do the questionnaire). I had asked about meeting up with him on an upcoming trip for 2 days, but he didn't seem really into that idea. I figure I can give it some time.

He's been asking about my meeting with the atty. and I haven't really answered. I was hoping that he wouldn't remember that I had the meeting, and I thought he didn't think I was serious. But I want to be O&H with him ... should I just tell him that I did go and inform him about the meeting?

I am in the process of figuring out what I want to be when I grow up (LOL) ... seriously, I am trying to make a career change, but have to figure out what I want first! This has been a challenge for me. All my life I just wanted to be a mom, and never thought about a career. But I really need something for me, that I love and enjoy. So that is a big part of my personal journey right now. Its easier to think about things like this when the M is going a bit more smoothly.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/27/07 03:24 PM
Glad to hear you're doing well, TFC. I'd go with the radical honesty, if I were you. But I'd also POJA it (if I'm radically honest, so are you)...and let him know where the term comes from. I think he needs to get acquainted with SAA and start checking off some of the squares in the checklist for recovery. What do you think?

Good to hear you're getting yourself set up for the rest of your life. You've remembered to get your husband on your side in that process?
His honesty has been overwhelming as of late. The girl that I was concerned about when I first came to MB lives out of state and now I know that they were truly just friends ... however I had found that inappropriate IM log and they haven't spoken since I showed it to him. She works in his field and he needed a contact name/number. She was the only person that he knew that might have it. So, he called me and asked permission to text her for it. I approved. That night, I came home and he offered his cell phone for me to review the message for appropriateness. I didn't have to ... the fact that he was willing to show it to me on his own accord said plenty. You know, she never responded to his message. I'm guessing she got word that we're trying to repair our M ... I always thought she wanted more than a friendship with him. Good for her.

As far as figuring out my future career:
This has been something that I have struggled with for a long time. My H was never really that interested in helping me figure it out. He always said that it wasn't something that he could decide for me. Now, I have brought up what I am working on in conversation several times. Each time he has spent more time discussing it with me. When he finally realized that I wasn't looking to him for answers, he became more interested. I had to explain to him that I didn't need him to pick a career for me ... I just needed him to talk things through and to get his acceptance on my choice (whenever I finally choose). Now he's even offering ideas of things that I would love, even though they are far-fetched financially. It is nice to finally have his participation.

I told him Sunday night: "In the past week, you have been a better husband to me than in the 6 years we've been married." He asked me with a smart-alek smirk - "Collectively?" I laughed and said "No, not collectively. But I am so appreciative of the efforts that you have made. It means to much to see that you want to try." He smiled and looked down. It was precious.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/27/07 04:45 PM
Good on you. Keep up the great work, Lady.
One question: The other night, we were talking about what a great team we are. During this, he states that we co-exist (I think he meant we're co-dependent - coexist has another meaning to me). And he wonders if that is a healthy way to be married? I explained my opinion: To me, partnership is about being a good team. We compliment each other in so many ways - in our finances, in our parenting, in our personalities, in our day-to-day tasks, etc. To me, being a good team is a foundation for a great marriage. He thought on it for a bit, and nodded with a smile. Was it a test? Does he agree? Not sure. But my actual question here is: Is it unhealthy to co-exist (as he put it)? Or is it a foundation for a good marriage?
P.S.
I am so amazed at the 180 that he has done ... now, I would give anything to hear "I love you".

So, I'm off to read Fall in Love, Stay in Love.

Did I mention that I think he's been reading MB or the books? If not, he is a natural at this!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/27/07 06:05 PM
To me, codependency isn't a very attractive state in a relationship. I feel that when one depends upon one's spouse for all emotional feedback and motivation, then that individual (and the relationship) is really terribly vulnerable. I don’t think that’s what your husband means though. I don’t see that kind of relationship in what you’ve written.

With just your few words to go on, I'd be more inclined to say he's rediscovering you two fit together as well as two pieces in a puzzle...and he's making sure you understand it shouldn’t devolve into something less healthy. It could be he’s doing some soul searching and wants to see how you feel about things that are coming up in that search…perhaps something like, “Do we love each other too much?”

So far as I’m concerned, instead of codependency, much better foundations for a marriage are a good partnership, communication such as you’re reestablishing with your husband, and lots of quality time together. Seems to me that’s what both of you are working toward. Way to go.
Where I was coming from - one of us always picks up where the other leaves off, so to speak. Examples:

Parenting - we almost always make arrangements for one of us to be taking care of DD. We agreed when she was born that we never wanted her in a daycare.
Personality - I stress about things he's more laid-back about and vice versa. We compliment one another.
Home duties - when one is busier than the other, the less busy picks up the slack in chores at home. It is never really talked about, just done.

We have become a very cohesive team over the years in the day-to-day ... obviously we were lacking this in the emotional department, otherwise neither of us would have allowed for an affair to happen. Now we need to apply that teamwork mentality to our love/marriage, IMO. Maybe this is what he was truly concerned about?

Since this is something that he's obviously thinking on, would it be a good idea for me to read up on codependency just to be sure that isn't a road we're headed down?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/27/07 08:02 PM
Sure, why not read up on codependency? The more you know about relationships, the better off you are, right? Call it research just to make sure neither one of you go down that path. Looking into it might help with a future discussion on “co-existing,” right? However, I wouldn't be too concerned about the concept of codependency being a part of your marriage. There are others more versed in codependency on MB, but I sure don’t see it in your marriage.

Remember, codependency has an aspect of manipulation to it and I don't see any of that behavior in anything you said about your relationship. Instead, I see more the partnership thing...fitting together...rather than manipulation. Being part of a team working toward a common goal is nowhere near the same thing as emotionally bullying your spouse.
I guess I should read a little on codependency ... I don't see emotional bullying in us either, but it doesn't hurt to know a little bit more about it.

We have been so much better about communicating with one another lately. This is what I wish we'd had in our M all along! I think I mentioned before that I think he's read my EN questionnaire, but I didn't leave the LBQ out for him. So, I've been sure to lovingly mention when he does something that constitutes a LB for me. And he does the same for me ... except he says something more like "um, that drives me crazy". He doesn't mean it to be ugly to me and he doesn't say it in a hateful tone, so I don't call it a LB when he does. (LOL)

Today, however, I got this icky feeling that maybe he is still talking to the OW but hiding it really well. I know I should just try to have a little faith. After all, I'm still checking up on him and there's no proof of any communication between them or any A friends. So ... probably just a bad day?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 04/27/07 11:44 PM
Probably a bad day, but don't let your guard down. I've seen accounts from the radio show that say Dr. Harley and his wife check up on each other and have for many years. If you can think of another way to check, it might be worthwhile.

I don't think you'll find anything, based on what you've relayed from your interactions with your WH lately. The communication is too open now between you, for one thing. Normally, if a WS has just received a "fix" for his/her addiction to the OP, there is some detachment from the BS. They don't need the BS meeting any of their EN's because they've already been met.
True. I could always tell when he'd talked to her b/c he was so mean and standoffish to me. This has definitely not been the case lately! He will be out of town most of next month, so I hope we can maintain this good communication through the distance.
He is doing everything right, but something is just missing ... The things he is doing now are things I wished for all along in our M. But they still aren't enough? That seems so wrong to me. Our friendship is better than ever, but that's really all there seems to be between us (aside from SF). I need to be patient ... just a lonely night with him out of town. May will be a long month, as he will only be home about 3 or 4 days.

P.S. Sorry for the Debbie Downer post!
Confronted H on another lie today. He now claims that all our arguments surface because of my "snooping" ... I explained that had he not lied repeatedly, I wouldn't have to "snoop" and that the real problem here is that he continues to lie to me. I am over the lies. And he still won't agree to MC.

He does, however, feel that it is in the best interest for all involved for he & I to work things out and stay married. He & I are on different pages in this ... he says that he is working on the friendship, I think we're working on the M (which includes our friendship). I am at a complete loss on what to do next.
Last night, H and I cuddled and held each other. He went to bed with me for the first time in a looooooong time. (He usually stays up much later.) It was so nice to feel loved. But of course something had to break it ...

We are not morning people, so we snap at each other in the a.m. from time to time. This morning was no exception. But then, on my way in to work, he called. He wanted to tell me that living with anger, hate, resentment, and fear is no way to live and that I need to get it out of my system. I didn't realize I was living that way, but something to ponder. He says he understands that I am stressed out because (1) I don't know where our M is headed and (2) I only go to work and come home. I explained that yes, what we're going through is stressful, but also that I don't feel appreciated for what I do at home and at work, which leads to more stress. He seemed to understand. I think he may have been talking more about himself than me, because he followed all this with a comment about not having the luxury of going to therapy every week.

Then I get a text message from the xOM's XW. She is yet again sending hate-filled messages to me. While I certainly understand that she is in pain, I would like this to stop.

And one more thing: H has not apologized for his EA. I think he feels like he was entitled to it? Not sure - that could be a DJ. Maybe I should help him find a good IC?
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/01/07 01:19 PM
Quote
Then I get a text message from the xOM's XW. She is yet again sending hate-filled messages to me. While I certainly understand that she is in pain, I would like this to stop


change your phone number. she ahs every right to be angry with you... as you have every right to make it impossible for her to contact you. I hope you have previously apologized to her.
I think if I were a WS or FWS and hurt another like this... I would constantly sleep with one eye open and watch my back.
But... changing your number is the way to handle this... the OM should not have a way to contact you either... so all phone numbers and email accounts should be changed.

MEDC
I agree that she has every right to be angry with me. I prefer not to "sleep with one eye open", as I will get what I deserve (if I haven't already), or God will forgive me. I must find my own peace within and accept the choices I've made in the past and use my lessons to become a better person.

I have emailed her an apology ... she didn't think it was sincere. I have never apologized for something I'm not sorry for, that's not how I operate. I have asked her nicely to stop contacting me. The email address she sends me emails to is my business email. I can easily change my cell phone number, but not my email address. I have blocked her on email though.
I told my H about the contact from her. He already knew. She had messaged him, but she failed to mention her hate-filled text message to me. She made it out to him like I sent some lame apology and asked her to stop contacting me and told him she wasn't planning on it. He told me that he believed my apology was sincere and said that it wouldn't matter how I apologized to her, she probably wouldn't accept it. He understands (obviously) that she is hurting, but agrees that she needs to quit contacting me - he feels that it is childish. So, H is going to ask her to stop contacting me.
Posted By: medc Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/01/07 04:24 PM
your H should have NO contact with her for ANY reason whatsoever.
Marriage builders 101.
MEDC - you say he shouldn't be in contact with her either. How do I suggest this without LBing?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/01/07 05:01 PM
TFC, I don't understand. You don't want your husband to have any contact with the wife of your affair partner? Wouldn't you want to still be in contact with the husband of your husband's affair partner to make sure there is no re-firing of the affair in this very early stage of reconciliation? Remember, your husband has not healed from your affair. He’s entitled to have some things in place to assure himself your affair is over also. It’s just part of snooping on each other, isn’t it?

I think you must accept the fact your other man’s wife is going to hate you for the rest of your life. Why torture yourself by reading any of her text messages?

What’s the status of getting into counseling?
Well, I don't really care one way or another if he talks to her ... its just that she always contacts him (not vice versa) and puts him in a foul mood. She divorced OM, and H told me that he moved across the country. H is welcome to check up on me, but H also feels confident that I haven't been in contact with xOM (he told me this just today). H has been assured by me that he can do whatever he needs to for snooping on me.

I have certainly accepted that she will forever hate me and never forgive me. I have to live with that. But I don't have to live with the harassment that she puts along with that.

H hasn't had a chance to look for his own IC. I wondered if I should help him with this? I used to always do these types of things for him, but I don't want to overstep my bounds.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/01/07 06:24 PM
Well, the solution to the text messages would seem to be a quick change to another phone number or even a new provider. POJA that with your husband?

I'd shy away from selecting an IC for WH. However, how about you two climbing up on the couch one afternoon and going through some prospects together?
H doesn't want me to change my number. I called my atty. and sent her a cease & desist notice. Hopefully she won't contact me again. If so, H & I will have to POJA what to do next. I don't want to do anything else to upset her, but the contact has to stop. H agrees.

H is out of town again and I am going to help with his IC search by doing some preliminary searching ... see if its covered by ins., someone who will do phone counseling, fees, etc. Then he will make a choice, or choose someone entirely different. I wish he could go to my IC - she's great and he would love her approach!

It is so nice to feel involved in his life again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/01/07 08:24 PM
Okay, but please be careful with this. I think it has the potential to come off the wrong way to him if you aren't very, very cautious. Please keep it firmly fixed in your mind that you're only helping your husband find an IC. I'd go so far as to ask him to define the parameters of the search. Whether he feels he could better connect with a man or woman, for instance. Is age an issue? Is it all right with him if you look only for those who are pro-marriage? Etc., etc.

What happened to the SH session you were planning?
I hadn't thought about asking him for his parameters ... what a great suggestion! I will definitely do this.

As far as MC/SH goes - he wants to wait on this. I would really like to start ASAP, but I have to honor his wishes. He wants to go to IC for a bit first. (I think he's still trying to figure out whether or not he wants to stay married to me.)
This morning I had a text message from H last night (he's out of town) saying that he was with xOM ... My stomach dropped! I can't believe that I didn't wake up to be there for him when he sent it. I am so upset with myself. I hate that xOM puts himself in my H's face whenever he gets the chance. What an a**hole!

I sent him a response this morning letting him know that I was sorry I didn't hear the phone last night and that I was so sorry he had to be in the same room as that man. I hope that H is doing alright this morning ...

Any suggestions on how I can be there for him when he calls?
Posted By: rwinger Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/02/07 01:55 PM
TFC

I hope this does not trigger anything. I guess it depends on the interaction between the two. I suspect this would be a paingful trigger so a little compassion from you might be in order.

Is there any way he can cut down the travel? I see this being the biggest issue in the M. My travel almost killed my M - it was one of the underlying causes for my WW. Not sure Marriott points and Advantage miles was ever worth it now looking back.
His job absolutely requires travel, there is no way around it. He has worked so hard to get where he is and he is so great at what he does - I won't ask him to change jobs, I don't want to. I married him knowing that he would travel a great deal.

I just talked to H ... he seems a little down, understandable. And he only got 3 hours of sleep. To top it off, the a**hole saw that my H is going to be in the same state again tonight, so he told H he was going to drive the 3 hours to see H. Why doesn't H tell him to f*** off? I think it is really mean of the jerk to keep doing this! And H was upset that when he talked to xOMxW yesterday, she didn't tell him that xOM would be in the same city as H. He felt this was mean on her part.

I really want to show him that I am on his team for the rest of our lives. I really want to rid our lives of these 2 people. I believe that they are trying to cause problems in our M because they chose to D.

What else can I do to show H that I will take a stand for this M no matter what? I want him to see that no matter how tough things get, I will be a devoted and faithful wife!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/02/07 04:26 PM
XOM finds your husband if he's in the same state? I'm trying to envision someone finding a traveler in Texas, or even in one city. How is that done?

Anyway, an easy, nonconfrontational solution is for your husband to have a chat with hotel security and make sure that individual is not allowed inside. Move to a different motel, pick up a different rental car, change one's schedule, etc. -- whatever it takes. If that doesn't work, call the police. Additionally, one can use the court system.

Support your husband in all of this...make sure he sees you're more than angry with XOM. Your husband can make it very uncomfortable for the XOM to drive the distance just to vent. Can you motivate your husband to get proactive about this?
H's job is very public ... its easy to find where he is that day, but not necessarily where he is staying. And xOM wants to hang out & be friends again, but its just mean!

How do I motivate without LBing? I'm afraid it would come across as a DJ ... he might think that I don't believe he's tough enough or something.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/02/07 05:08 PM
Your husband needs to tell XOM to go play in traffic. I'm sorry, but I don't know why it's any more complicated than that. Is something else going on?

Maybe if you see an opening, you can just tell your husband something along the lines of the playing in traffic thing.
Nothing more to it than H is generally nice to everyone, including those he hates. If you think its appropriate to let him know that I hope H tells XOM to play in traffic (good one, btw) or take a long walk off a short cliff, I am more than happy to do so.

I only was concerned about telling him what I think he should do being a Lb somehow. I know that after his W has an A, a BH can feel less manly and so I didn't want H to think that I thought that he didn't have a pair of his own. Does that make any sense?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/02/07 08:29 PM
Why would you think it would be an LB for you to sympathize with the emotional turmoil your husband goes through meeting or being confronted with the XOM? Love Busters are defined as selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, annoying habits, independent behavior, and dishonesty. I don’t see any of that in you saying something disrespectful of the XOM and letting your husband know whatever he does about the unwanted contact is okay with you.

What you say makes sense, and I know you must be careful at all time to not appear manipulative. But I don’t think he’d necessarily read it that way. I sure wouldn’t. I believe if he were to hear you reinforce your (previously stated?) dislike of the XOM and hear you wonder why XOM is bothering your husband, I think it would tend to encourage your husband to think of you two as a couple – us against them, as it were. I’m sure you can find the words to get your idea on this across to him.

You could even reinforce the whole thing later, depositing even more in his love bank. If he suggests he might do something to cut off the contact, you can let your husband know you know you can rely on his judgment…you might even be able to (honestly) cheer him on in what he intends to do. If things go well in the conversation, perhaps you could even restate the idea you feel you both need XOM out of your lives permanently.

What do you think of all this?
Perfect! And it went well ... I talked to him just a bit ago. I told him that I hoped certain people didn't show up tonight. He agreed. Then I took that opportunity to tell him that if XOM showed up to tell him to take a long walk off a short cliff. That gave H a chuckle! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Then, he said something to me that he hasn't said in a loooooong time: "I miss you"! *jumping up and down for joy*
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/03/07 04:40 PM
Excellent! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
H has been back in town for a couple of days before going on a long trip. I was hoping that we would be feeling closer than ever, but instead he keeps reminding me that we are "just friends" and I am to have no expectations of him. I haven't really tried to have expectations, but he has set a pattern of making an effort at the M for the last few weeks, so I was thinking that was the path we were headed down. So, maybe recovery isn't in our future?

He brought up that a while ago we had discussed re-evaluating things after school was out. This was actually not the agreement. At the time, he was dead-set on D, so I asked if he would just wait until after school was out to file the papers. Then, lately it hasn't seemed that we were going to get a D. But now, he says he is just waiting until after school is out to decide what is next for us.

Basically, I feel like he is in full control of our recovery - that it is at his pace and his discretion. Like if he feels like working on the M today, then we should. But if he doesn't, then we're "just friends". We really need to get back to SH for MC, but he won't agree to it yet.

I want for us to just go all-in on recovery, but he doesn't. I don't think it is healthy for us to put off recovery much longer ... what can I do to help things along? Or do I just sit back and wait while Plan A-ing until school is out?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/05/07 08:10 PM
Has he hit a plateau or is some other dynamic at play here? I agree he may be getting comfortable in a new attitude, but is this the first sign of it? Are there any other red flags?

It does happen though. It’s that “path of least resistance” thing we humans fall prey to so often. If things are going along (apparently very smoothly), folks are inclined to protect that status and not upset the apple cart. Most people will “go along to get along” for a long, long time if they’re not jarred out of that behavioral pattern.

You’re right, TFC, in many ways the WS (unfortunately) IS in complete charge of the recovery and it proceeds on the WS's pace...up to a point.

Question: What is the significance of school being out and why would that have any bearing on discussing the relationship? Is there any chance of a hidden agenda there?

Hmmmmmm

Would you remind the forum how long you've been in Plan A, TFC.

It may be about time you set some boundaries in your relationship, like, "If I wanted a friend, I’d go chat with the counter waitress down at IHOP," or something like that. You don't have to accept rewritten history either. If he's incorrect about that agreement, you can find a courteous way to give him your side. It’s no LB to be forthright that you are in this for the marriage and not a friendship, even one with benefits.

You can see where this might be heading, right? If he can't get off the dime (I seem to be thinking in clichés today, don't I?) someday relatively soon, it may be necessary to start a Plan B, TFC. Dr. Harley has said Plan A works on its own only about 15% of the time. That means most recoveries have to go to Plan B, unfortunate as that is.

Now, filter all the above through your personal knowledge of your husband and his thought patterns. Is he just in a mood? Did something he saw on TV spark something in his mind and he needs to show some independence or something like that?

Pick your battles carefully, TFC. If he's just going through one of the low points in the roller coaster ride, that's one thing. If he's becoming entrenched in a new, independent lifestyle, that's a horse of a different color. Can you do a little clinical, detached evaluation for us? Make sure this is a bump, not a mountain, okay?

LH
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Has he hit a plateau or is some other dynamic at play here? I agree he may be getting comfortable in a new attitude, but is this the first sign of it? Are there any other red flags?

It does happen though. It’s that “path of least resistance” thing we humans fall prey to so often. If things are going along (apparently very smoothly), folks are inclined to protect that status and not upset the apple cart. Most people will “go along to get along” for a long, long time if they’re not jarred out of that behavioral pattern.

IMO, this isn't him "getting comfortable" ... this is taking steps backward. Last week, things were great. Then this week, things aren't. I understand that there is some level of roller-coaster riding during recovery, but the highs are really high and the lows are really low. Can't there be a way to have a little bit smoother ride? Not upsetting the apple cart would be a real joy right now. The only red flags are: hiding the cell phone again, and complaining that I “made” him quit talking to certain people.

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You’re right, TFC, in many ways the WS (unfortunately) IS in complete charge of the recovery and it proceeds on the WS's pace...up to a point.

This point you speak of, is this my “straw that broke the camel’s back”? He has been in complete control of this relationship since my D-Day. And he is completely unapologetic about his EA – I think he is in denial that it even was an EA! He states that “it was nothing compared to what you did” … and that is supposed to make it ok?

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Question: What is the significance of school being out and why would that have any bearing on discussing the relationship? Is there any chance of a hidden agenda there?

We had agreed not to get the D until school was out for a couple of reasons. Mainly because we didn’t want DD to go through a D during the last months of school. We thought it would be easier on all of us if we just waited. And I wanted a little extra time to work on the M.

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Would you remind the forum how long you've been in Plan A, TFC.

Well, I was using the Plan A techniques immediately after my D-Day (12/26/06) to show my BH that I was willing to do whatever it took to save the M and improve my self. However, I had suspicions of his A in March and beefed up my Plan A immediately.

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It may be about time you set some boundaries in your relationship, like, "If I wanted a friend, I’d go chat with the counter waitress down at IHOP," or something like that. You don't have to accept rewritten history either. If he's incorrect about that agreement, you can find a courteous way to give him your side. It’s no LB to be forthright that you are in this for the marriage and not a friendship, even one with benefits.

You can see where this might be heading, right? If he can't get off the dime (I seem to be thinking in clichés today, don't I?) someday relatively soon, it may be necessary to start a Plan B, TFC. Dr. Harley has said Plan A works on its own only about 15% of the time. That means most recoveries have to go to Plan B, unfortunate as that is.

I have told him that I am certainly wanting our friendship to improve – but only as part of our M. I really don’t want to head into Plan B, but I am beginning to wonder if I should sometime soon. I told him today that his choice to separate himself from inappropriate “friendships” was his choice, not mine. I simply set the boundary that I was unwilling to be in a M where my H was having those types of friendships. And in making the choice to end those “friendships”, I understood that to mean that he would be willing to consider a future with me. (Maybe I shouldn’t have assumed that?)

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Now, filter all the above through your personal knowledge of your husband and his thought patterns. Is he just in a mood? Did something he saw on TV spark something in his mind and he needs to show some independence or something like that?

My H always feels the need to express his independence. We actually discussed this earlier today! He has always been a sort-of rebel … tell him not to do something and he’ll do it just to show that he is in control. He likes to be able to do what he wants, when he wants without any repercussions. I am not making DJs here – this is honesty, and he is fully aware that this is his personality. But I want a healthy recovery – a recovery where we team up to forge through this doo-doo together, not separately.

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Pick your battles carefully, TFC. If he's just going through one of the low points in the roller coaster ride, that's one thing. If he's becoming entrenched in a new, independent lifestyle, that's a horse of a different color. Can you do a little clinical, detached evaluation for us? Make sure this is a bump, not a mountain, okay?

LH

I hope that this was detached enough … it can be very difficult for me to pull only from fact and not emotion too. I must say that I feel this is a pothole in our road to recovery.

So, my 2 main issues are:

1. He seems to have no remorse for his A, has not apologized for it, feels he was entitled to it, and still lies about the events during it.
2. He has not yet made a choice on whether he wants to work on the M or not.

While I realize that I have no control over what he thinks, decides, or does I don’t know how to think about this in terms of boundaries for me … I’m not sure what boundaries to set anymore. I completely blew last set of boundaries when he ended his A and seemed to be working on the M. Now that this may not be the case, I need to set new ones. The friendship boundary is a good one, but how do I enforce it? What other boundaries can I set to protect myself and my love for him?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/05/07 09:55 PM
Uh oh. Hiding the phone again, coupled with the abrupt attitude change means he could be in contact with OW again. Darn it.

Well nuts. I thought things were going so well. You two seemed to be connecting on a lot of different things but now it seems that was a false recovery. He's backsliding. I'm inclined to say that may be an indication you'll have to go into Plan B sometime soon. Dr. Harley uses a rule of thumb of 3 months of Plan A by women, and 6 months done by men. In one sense, you're well over the average for a woman to use Plan A. In another, you may want to keep trying for a while longer, if you can.

If there's no progress being made, if indeed he's retrogressing, then it may be time to start seriously planning a good Plan B. Have you secured your finances, spoken to an attorney if filing a writ for legal separation is necessary, found an intermediary where you can pass over custody if your DD will be spending part of her time out of your home and in his?

I think you have a little while to look over your Plan B while you evaluate where your WH is going but, unfortunately, I also think you're probably going to have to pull the trigger on a dark Plan B for the good work you did in Plan A to have any effect.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
There has been no evidence of contact with OW, however there was a 15 min cell phone conversation with the out-of-town chick yesterday that he didn't tell me about. I had told him that I was fine with their friendship if and only if she was aware that he was working on our relationship and he informed me about contact with her. He had informed me last week of 2 text messages between them and even saved them in his phone for my viewing if I deemed it necessary. But I just checked the phone logs, and there it was ... a conversation that was rather lengthy (IMO) and I wasn't told about.

I can certainly continue Plan A a bit longer, but without a commitment from him soon I will be forced into Plan B.

I have seen an attorney. When I asked about legal separation, I was told that it was not necessary nor was it preferable in his opinion. I already have a separate bank account set up and can re-arrange any other finances quickly. An intermediary will be simple as well - both our parents and sisters will be willing to help there. As far as one of us moving out, he won't do it. I am being stubborn on this topic because I think that it is unfair for DD to move from her home and see her parents separate. But if I have to, I suppose I will move.

What do you think about his denial and lack of remorse for his A?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/06/07 01:17 AM
I see. I gave too much weight to the fact he was hiding phone calls again. Okay, would it be more accurate to say his committment to being open is kind of hit and miss, but not so badly that it's raising red flags for you?

Yes, Plan A cannot go on forever. If he keeps sitting on that fence, something must be done. It looks like you've given some thought to Plan B. My only question would be whether it might not be better to have a friend, instead of a family member available to do the pass offs? Family members tend to take sides, even when a person would swear it was very unlikely. It could create difficulties somewhere down the line. Just something for you to consider and decide.

TFC, his denial will continue for a long time, as will his lack of remorse. That's almost routine. I don't have a good feel for how long it takes for the WS's resistence to admitting what he/she has done and be sorry for it.

Hmmmmm

How about this. Why don't you start a new thread asking for some MB folks to give personal accounts of how long it took for their WS to begin feeling remorse, etc? You've seen all kinds of threads out here...you'll know how to word it. When the purpose of that thread has been completed, you can come back to this thread. Whatcha think?
Good idea. He feels that his A was completely justified b/c of mine. I think neither of ours are ... we don't see eye to eye on this. Or much of anything else about recovery. For example, he thinks that I should stay home and not go out with him until we've fully recovered (if that happens) and I feel that during our recovery he should make friends aware that we are working on the M.

He actually told me today that I should feel grateful about whatever attention I get from him. I am still a human being! And I am grateful that he decided to stick around for now and make an effort at things. But I don't think I should have to be groveling every second of every day. I don't think I should be told I'm lucky for whatever I get from him. I think we should join forces to fight this battle together - respectfully, lovingly. Am I totally off base?

He says that 4-5 months is such a little time and that he wouldn't be able to make a decision for years to come ... I don't think I should have to wait for years for him to decide if he wants to give our M a shot or not. Am I expecting too much?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/06/07 05:53 PM
Okay, I'll look forward to seeing your new thread. I think it would be a great idea to reach out for such folks as believer, Melody, and Mrs W, and others whose names escape me at the moment. When there's only one person posting, things can get missed.

It's upsetting to begin hearing of your husband's new attitudes and behavious, or are you just now writing about something that's been on-going? Either way, it's disturbing. He's restating that entitlement thing and he's building fences in his life, segregating wife and daughter into one place...and who knows what's going on the other fenced off places? Compartmentalization is never a good thing. It allows secrets to exist and grow. No, you’re not at all off base. (Suggestion: make his attitudes a part of the question in your new thread.)

Actually, you know...you’re not the lucky one. It could be argued his is the greater transgression because, before he engaged in his adultery, he already knew how much destruction and agony he would be inflicting. One might conclude he is the lucky one because you’ve stuck around.

TFC, there is manipulation written all over his “new” behavior and in his words. If he’s also decided he doesn’t have to tell you about phone calls and text messages, then a seriously bad trend is developing...and very quickly too. I’m beginning to wonder what other manipulative techniques he might be practicing AND I wonder what his endgame is.

His suggestion he’s putting off a decision for “years” is another indication of attempted manipulation and it’s a way to dominate the relationship…to punish you further, perhaps, and keeping you dangling, under his thumb (to use a cliché where the opportunity presents itself). These aren’t good signs and they might mean a Plan B is closer than I would have dreamed this time last week. If his new (?) behavior becomes entrenched and hardens, the process of recovery becomes more difficult or even impossible.

Yesterday was the first time you’ve mentioned something like this, TFC. Are there any other things you’ve hesitated to tell us here at MB?
This is certainly new now ... the last 2 weeks have been full of kindness and efforts. Now we are sort of back to the same attitude that he had during his A.

We just had a long talk. He doesn't necessarily want a separation, but can't say he's willing to try at the M either. Can't imagine what to do next ...

I don't think I've failed to mention anything that might be significant.
Btw, Longhorn - I've posted that thread ... let's hope I can get some answers on this!

You have really been a lifesaver these past weeks and I can't thank you enough for your generosity and advice!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/06/07 09:53 PM
<sigh>

This is very strange. I wonder if it's just one of those bumps in the road or a trend that will continue. I just do not care for the implications of some of the things he said. Now are the times I wish someone's mind could be read. (Still no way he'll go to counseling?)

Continuing your Plan A is the only thing to do, for as long as you have decided you will. You don't have control over his thought processes, TFC, and you aren't responsible for his recent behavior. Don't let this get you down. The past two weeks might be a false recovery or this may be just a low point he, and you both will look back on as just a minor glitch. Plan A, being courteous and atttentive to him while working on being the best spouse and partner you can be, will set up the maximum effect of Plan B.

Hang tough, TFC and stay with the program Dr. Harley has found to work, okay?
After this morning, I will need to Plan A really well for at least another month before going into Plan B. I had some major LBs ... I raised my voice and wasn't as thoughtful in my wording as I have been making it a habit to be.

I'm hoping this is just a low point, but it is really low right now. I agree that some of the things he said have some terrible implications. Mind reading would be genius right now!
Just talked to H ... turns out both XOM and XOM's XW called him last night. I asked (yet again) why he didn't tell them both to go away - still no real answer.

I'm guessing that this most recent contact between them all has stirred up some really negative feelings about me and this could be what is causing his relapse into old attitudes & behaviors.

In addition, he couldn't deny that he was only sticking around until it was more convenient for him to move out.

So ... I am ultra-confused, but I am guessing that a strong Plan A is in order for a while longer, barring any unexpected disasters.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/06/07 11:40 PM
Darn. I suspect you're right. I'm curious why he's allowing the contact to continue. It doesn't make sense to me. Plan A, but get your Plan B tuned up, TFC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
He seems confused as well. For instance:
Today he asked what he can do while out of town that would make me happy. I told him that I always really appreciate when he takes time to call and text me. Later when we were talking about how great we get along in a semi-long distance M, he notes that we are "just friends". Later I got the ILYBNILWY speech.

Sometimes I wonder if he actually does want to work on the M, but doesn't want to admit it to himself or to me. Like admitting it would mean that he gave in to my A and let me "win". I truly wonder if this manipulative behavior is a control thing, an ego thing, a self-preservation thing. Maybe I am just too hopeful and he really wants out?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/07/07 01:27 PM
It’s obvious he's actively working now to keep you at arm's length but I agree, his motives aren't clear at all. He may not know himself what he wants to do. Manipulative techniques are tools we human beings use for all sorts of reasons and that use doesn’t have to be a conscious thing. The heartbreaking thing about it is, the best course of action that would clarify things for him in his own mind, and yours, is the one thing he apparently won't do – professional counseling.

A second problem is he doesn't see this limbo can't go on indefinitely. Though he speaks of years before he'll make his decision to stay or go, it's too volatile a situation to remain unsettled for that long. If your marriage is to be salvaged, he must be shocked out of that frame of thought and made to see what he’s doing to himself and his family.

(Have you expressed your disagreement with his X-number of years plan?)

Regretfully, the shock value of a great Plan A, followed by a dark Plan B may be the only thing that gets through to him. He wouldn’t be the first.

TFC, I think it may be necessary to talk to your attorney about filing for a legal separation or actually petition for divorce in order to get him out of the house for a good Plan B. Just "filing" of those actions is not binding...they don't have to be carried out to the last extremity...and a skillful attorney can draw them out almost indefinitely while your Plan B does its work in your husband’s mind. Maybe you should check with your attorney, tell him/her about your purposes in doing this and see what advice you get?
I am going to talk to MIL to see if she can help influence him to get in IC at least.

He is well aware that his years-long plan is not going to fly with me. I told him the same thing I've said here: I understand that it will take years to see if things can work out or not, but in the meantime a decision needs to be made on trying to make it work.

I must admit that I am so afraid of Plan B and D. I think it would actually be harder for me to go without talking to him than vice versa.
I was just reading another thread on here and it reminded me that I should note that I have been trying to discuss recovery too much lately ... falling off Plan A there. He said that he was sick of the "Dr. Phil conversations" (lol), so I obviously need to cut it out. I need to study a bit more on Plan A (as previously mentioned) - I've always been a straight-A student and I seem to be around a C-student on this subject! Wish me luck on that.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/07/07 09:14 PM
I hope MIL can get him to see some sense in that. Plan B and D ARE scary, TFC. If they weren't to you, I'd be concerned about your chances to recover your marriage.

You're right, relationship talk isn't advisable, but no one does a perfect Plan A. When you fall off the horse, get back on and ride on down the road.
I miss my H! I have longed for some affection for some time now. Affection & SF are in the top of my ENs ... SF is met, but without affection. Before he went out of town yesterday, I didn't even get a hug! I've been getting hugs before he leaves, but not this time. I got a squeeze on the shoulder instead. I am feeling the distance ... big time!

Some small things that did make me feel good:
1. He asked me to get a babysitter one night next week to do something with him.
2. He told me yesterday that I looked pretty ... he hasn't done that in a while.
3. He mentioned having a surprise for me in the next couple of weeks.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/08/07 08:53 PM
Looks to me like he gives you some affection and some hopeful words when he's preparing for a trip, or actually on one...long distance, as it were.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

A date night is good news; I hope it happens. I don't know what to make of the "surprise." Could you read your husband's eyes and body language when he said it?
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Looks to me like he gives you some affection and some hopeful words when he's preparing for a trip, or actually on one...long distance, as it were.

Some affection, yes - but not how I want/need it. It is a bit concerning that he is nicest just before going away and while gone, isn't it? My best friend thinks it is his way of keeping me "in line" - not sure I agree with her.

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A date night is good news; I hope it happens. I don't know what to make of the "surprise." Could you read your husband's eyes and body language when he said it?

LOL ... I didn't think about how "surprise" would come across online! It was nice, there was a pleasantness about it - so, no, I'm not expecting anything like D papers. He just said that he thought I would be very pleased with him sometime over the next couple of weeks. When I asked why, he noted that he had a surprise. He's never been good at keeping surprises secret - but he's been good about this one, I have no idea what it could be. I'm guessing I'll find out when he gets back in town next Monday (still so sad he won't be home for Mothers Day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />).
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/08/07 09:23 PM
Okay, I admit I sometimes automatically go to the glass half-empty thing. It sounds a lot better with some clarification. As for him keeping you “in line,” you’ll know in time if he’s just throwing you crumbs with that intent in mind.

I'll work on seeing the glass half full, okay?
Well, I probably see the glass half-full waaaaaaay too much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You ever get that feeling that something just isn't right? That's how I feel half the time. I am so confused by all the mixed signals and I'm trying my best to not let it affect me, but I'm not managing it well admittedly.
Longhorn - An update from the thread about remorse: The timeline for showing some remorse seems to be about 6 months. No one really commented about a timeline for choosing to work on the M.

I am beginning to feel half-empty ... like our M is doomed. He's out of town and is being nice, but not attentive. Does that make sense? He calls whenever, which is not much, but is nice and shows an effort at good communication when we talk. But if I text message or call, he doesn't respond. Maybe it is that control thing again?

What can I do?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/09/07 05:30 PM
TFC, the only thing you can do is to hang in there with a good Plan A for as long as you can, then go to Plan B. That's Dr. Harley's program and it's about the only thing that can work. So long as you’re in Plan A, please resist the roller coaster rider as much as you can.

Let's summarize what has been going on for the past few weeks, okay?

First, your WH is in NC, so far as you know. On the other hand, he has been in contact with your OM and OMW until comparatively recently. (That, btw, is something I’ve not encountered out here before.) Second, he shows no sign of being at all remorseful and, in fact, defends his right to have had an affair of his own. Third, he has made some overtures toward “getting along” as friends. At the same time, he's keeping you at arm's length. Finally, he's showing signs (if I'm interpreting your words correctly) of becoming comfortable with the relationship in that condition. Okay so far? I can’t think of anything to add to that. If you can, please do.

I think you are beginning to feel, on a deep level, your husband’s detachment and unwillingness to commit to you...both in his words and actions. I suspect the sub-conscious mind reflects such a realization with a sense of foreboding. Does it seem to you there is a cynical component to your WH's actions...something aloof and calculating? I get a sense of a hidden agenda that disturbs me. Does it seem that way to you?

TFC, if this continues much longer, I think you must strongly consider implementing a dark Plan B sometime soon. The better Plan A you do, the stronger Plan B becomes...and the darker Plan B you do, the better the contrast between how WH is forced to live in the darkness and how fine it could be if he commits to the marriage.

There is a point of diminished returns in Plan A, past which a wayward spouse becomes relaxed and contented because he or she isn’t really forced to deal with much strife. Because there is no confrontation about the marital relationship, and the partner seems to accept a less intense relationship, the WS can begin to get accustomed to the new situation. When you sense that point coming, I think you need to set as great a Plan B in motion as you’ve done a Plan A.

I think your best plan is to hang on as long as you can in Plan A and then pull the trigger on Plan B. Regretfully, I see most of the past two weeks as a false recovery period. Perhaps you can stay in Plan A long enough to see what WH’s “surprise” is in two weeks, but that might be a watershed moment. If he doesn’t seem to be moving toward a commitment, and Plan A accomplishes that only about 15% of the time, Plan B might be in order.

TFC, it strikes me you might consider calling Dr. Harley’s radio program and present him with the facts of the past few weeks such as how long you’ve been in Plan A, your husband’s apparently comfortable detachment (if you agree with that analysis), his lack of remorse and, finally, your newfound premonitions of a doomed marriage. The radio program is a chance for contact with the good doctor and his wife for some priceless advice. What do you think?

LH
First off, your synopsis is right on. And I am finding that my distress over his lack of willingness to commit to working on the M leads me to feel that the M is doomed. Let's hope it isn't, but I cannot help but feel that I need to now open my eyes and realize that we may very well not work out. It breaks my heart to think like this.

Because I had a bad day yesterday and this morning, H decided to go ahead and tell me the "surprise" ... he is coming home from his trip a day early to be home for Mother's Day.

So, here we are. I generally feel there is way too much distance between us, then he throws morsels my way and I eat them up like a starving animal!

I agree that to stay in Plan A as long as possible will be my best bet. I don't want him to get too comfortable in Plan A, though. And I don't want him to just be building up a friendship with me that only leads to D. As much as I like him, I can't see us being D and being close friends - I think it would hurt too much.

Btw - I forgot to mention that we discussed ENs the other day. His top needs are listed below. If you have any advice to how to help in meeting some of these, I'm all ears (or eyes, really):

Sexual Fulfillment, Openness & Honesty, Financial Support, Admiration, "Freedom" (that's one he added on his own)
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Trying to save it, against all odds - 05/09/07 07:23 PM
Well, it's surely nice he's coming home a day early but, with all due respect, it's little more than a gesture. To me, a man arranging to be at home on such a day is a thing to be taken for granted, rather than something for which he expects you to be especially pleased. When (a) he tosses out such crumbs as this but, (b) still doesn't answer text messages or calls you make to him and, (c) when he keeps you emotionally at arm's length when he IS around…then coming home a day early seems to me to be a pretty empty thing.

SF is routinely at the top of most men’s EN list. It’s no surprise. Openness and Honesty may be a reference to your affair but, whether it is or not, it’s a good thing for both of you to have in your ENs. I have to wonder if he thinks it would be a good thing for him to give you, as well as receiving it from you?

It’s good, from a strategic point of view, that admiration and financial support rank are on his list. Those, plus SF, are things he won’t be getting in Plan B. Their loss will make Plan B that much more effective.

As to how you can meet them, the first two are self-explanatory. You’ve mentioned meeting his needs in one area and I’m sure you’re making a great effort toward radical honesty. Since he mentioned it, perhaps you might want to review that policy in SAA just to make sure you’ve done everything you intended to do.

Financial support: I suppose he wants the best job he can get…the one where the rewards are the greatest. It may be something on his mind now as a justification for traveling so often (something that causes stress in the strongest of marriages) because of the better pay. Admiration, to me, is something that is earned. It’s curious he wants admiration, but he’s been acting in a distinctly unadmirable fashion. I wonder what a psychologist would have to say about that?

To me, him adding “freedom” to his list of ENs was a snide, spiteful thing to do. If he wants his freedom, he can file a petition in family court and he knows it. I see signs he wants his cake and wants to be able to eat it too, to coin a phrase.

I think if it wasn’t an empty, though unpleasant, gesture…then it’s the attitude of a person only half a step away (if that far) from deliberately going on the prowl for another affair. It worries me, so I’m going to hope it was just an attempt to manipulate you into getting closer to him (to admire him more?) so as to prevent him from realizing his “freedom.”

Will you consider calling Dr. Harley’s radio show? You are just as anonymous on the air as you are here, you know?

Comments from other MB folks? Come on people. TFC needs the input.
Two of our ENs are the same: SF and O&H. We can easily meet the SF need, and have both been much better about O&H. Financial support I can certainly understand. I know everyone here takes issue with his travel schedule, but I knew his profession when I married him and knew that there is no way to success in his career without traveling. Its just something that doesn't bother me - though I wish I could meet him out of town.

The "freedom" EN was something that I think he threw in there to be humorous and spiteful. He wants to do what he wants, when he wants and knows that M doesn't always allow for that. He is seriously cake-eating here, and I know it. The lack of remorse and total justification for his A says to me that he still feels that what I did was "worse" and that he gets to be in control of the M from that point forward, regardless of what he did. I feel that the future of the M should be POJA'd, but maybe I'm addicted to MB! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree that his actions are rather un-admirable. I just told my best friend this a.m. that it was like (in his mind) he was able to get away with not returning call & TMs because he was "surprising" me by coming home for Mother's Day.

And, while I always like Longhorn's advice ... it would be nice to get input from others as well.

I'll consider calling in to the radio show this week.
Believer, JustLetGo, johnstwin, JustLearning, JayBan, rwinger ... where did you go? If any of you have something to offer, please do - I can take it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Longhorn has been giving you great support. Have you really meditated on his posts? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.
I have indeed ... he's the only one posting to me, so I tend to read, respond, re-read, re-re-read, etc. Longhorn had asked for more help a few posts back, so I was trying to let others know that I am open to more responses as well as the great advise from Longhorn. I have truly appreciated having his guidance and wisdom ... it has kept me more at peace than I thought I could be.

Orchid - I got a couple of opportunities to use your RB technique, and it was great! Thanks for keeping a link to that in your signature and for all the other great advise you offer here. You are an inspiration.
So what is your plan from this point forward?

L.
I am sort of struggling with this ...

I know my H better than anyone, and I have a gut feeling that if I go into Plan B he'll go back to his OW or find someone new to have an EA with. I also know myself, and not talking to him at all might drive me insane.

So, I suppose the best plan of attack is Plan A - a solid, perfected Plan A. I have been good at it thus far, but it has been waning. Seems to me that I need to do a FANTASTIC Plan A to re-up his interest level. I think I also need to be a little less accessible to him though. Not playing games, per se, but just not always being so readily available. I must admit that Plan A has been really difficult over the last week though - I'm so frustrated with how things are going that I'm finding difficult to maintain focus on being positive.

I will try to call the radio show tomorrow too, see what the Harleys have to say.

What do you think about this plan? Does it need some adjustments?
Plan A is NOT an attack plan. You need a strategy.

L.
What do you suggest?
TFC, I’d like you to read another thread out here, one started by Sadmo. Please review…study it…very, very closely. [color:"blue"][b]Here[/b][/i][/color] is a link to her thread.

Sadmo is an extremely prolific writer in her posts, by which I mean she posts frequent updates and goes into a lot of detail on how her day went and what her interaction was with her WH. I think you’ll see yourself in many of the things she has to say. In fact, in your last post, you said precisely what Sadmo did a couple of months ago.

Read her thread, TFC, because what has happened in her story is a tragedy. If you read it closely, you’ll see a woman progressing from wanting very badly to recover her marriage to a point where she is today seeking a divorce without going any further in her strategy than Plan A, if indeed she had a strategy. Now...it wasn’t because she didn’t know about Plan B. She was advised long ago to go into that plan, but she was afraid it would drive her WH farther away.

It may have had that effect but I doubt it. I don't recall the last time I saw a thread where that happened. Thing is, he was already living separately from the family and only coming around when he got the urge. Essentially, he was keeping her on the line while he sat on a fence, eating his cake and giving her just enough to keep wanting more of her ENs met by him while he explored other relationships. He was using Sadmo as his backup plan just in case he didn’t meet someone new and exciting.

As you read her thread, you’ll see this became increasingly obvious to Sadmo. She lost her self-respect and I’m sure WH’s respect, though he may have enjoyed what he saw as her submissiveness to him. In Sadmo’s posts of the last few days, you’ll read how Sadmo finally reached the tipping point and allowed her anger to spill over into bitterness and retribution.

It’s not that she wasn’t advised to go into a nice dark Plan B to conserve her love for her husband. Orchid, Mulan, and any number of other people asked her to set one up but...she was afraid it would drive WH away. Today, without doing a Plan B (or a substitute for Plan B we call a “180”), she’s going directly from Plan A to divorce court.

Isn’t it ironic? She was afraid any action she took would drive him away...and now she’s the one [i]pushing him away as hard as she can. In the space of two months, Sadmo has gone from desperately wanting to salvage her marriage to a woman who cannot stand the sight of her husband.

TFC, when you’ve studied Sadmo’s thread, please come back and answer Orchid’s question again, okay?
OK. I am going to study her thread now ... can you brief me on "180"?

And, I thought Plan B was for use when one has a wayward spouse ... does it work the same even if the A is over?
A "180" is something a BS does when Plan A hasn't had the desired effect and the WS will not move out of the family home. Some have referred to it as an "in-house" Plan B, but I try to stay away from that description because it creates confusion.

The "180 Degree List" comes from a post on another website by an individual by the name of Michelle Weiner Davis. It's been brought over to MB and can be found here.

[color:"blue"] [b]180 Degree List[/b] [/color]

Patience though, TFC. Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. You have plenty of time to take a look at Sadmo's thread and then we'll all help you get back to a good strategy. Then, we can all run through some particulars, okay?

Hang in there, Lady.
In a sense, your husband still is wayward because he won't even consider committing to recovery. In fact, except for the fact you don't think he's still in contact with OW, he meets all the criteria of a wayward spouse, does he not? He's still fixed on the idea he was entitled to his own affair and is withdrawing credits from your Love Bank (LB) almost daily. He could draw this out indefinitely if he's allowed to, so a mechanism is necessary to get him off that fence.

This would be a good question to pose on the radio show.
Well, I stayed up late last night studying Sadmo's thread. There were so many similarities! I can't wait to discuss it! No radio show call-in today - I have a meeting at work. Hopefully I can tomorrow.

Will begin discussing the me/Sadmo situation soon.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand ... what excellent timing Ark has! His post today about Plan A was probably much needed for me! So, because the TFC-Sadmo Diaries will take much longer, I'll start with what I noticed from Ark's Plan A ...
These are the mistakes I've made in Plan A:

Mistake #1 - PLAN A must have a time frame for ending BEFORE it begins....
Mistake #2 - push for the apologies...and woe to you who get it without true meaning because you will not have true remorse... (though I haven't pushed H for an apology, I've been expecting one)
Mistake #3 - PLAN A is never ever about getting a committment from the WS to do something....

This comment from Ark hit home the most:
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People that do plan A well find great freedom and creativity in the doing and giving and meeting of ENs...

people that expect their needs to be met...
flounder and get crushed....
Mulan said this to Sadmo:
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Sad, what you have here is a man who suddenly found out that yes he CAN have it all - he really can have all the fun of dating AND still have a wife and kids who will sit at the house and wait for him and be weeping with relief when he finally gets around to coming home!

I submit it's not the "free-wheeling single life" that he's so into - it's the idea that he is so great and so special and so different and such a king of the world that it's okay for HIM to be both married and single at the same time.

He loves, loves, loves sitting up on that fence, and you can be sure that his butt will stay firmly attached there forever unless and until something knocks him off.

Think hard and look close - what are you doing that enables him to sit up on that fence? What could YOU do to change this situation?

This is something that I've thought a lot about - or should I say festered over? While my H isn't "dating", he is acting like a single man. And I seem to be an "enabler" a lot of the time ... my H has all the benefits of being both married and single! And all because I'm too scared to upset the status quo - even though I can't stand the status quo!

This is the one major thing that makes me believe that doing the 180 plan might be to my advantage. However, my H can be very manipulative and he likes to turn things around on me. So, if I were to do 180 or Plan B, he would say something like - "Well, you're the one who wanted out. You're the one that quit [insert verb here - i.s. caring, having SF, etc]." He is masterful at this! Which is part of my fear in upsetting the status quo.
Yes, Ark is an exceptionally gifted individual and has a number of fine posts out here. One that I recommend to people all the time is her "Be Still" thread. I think I've given you a link to it before but if not, it can be found here.

[b] [color:"blue"]Ark's "Be Still" Thread[/color] [/i][/b]

Mulan is another fine lady and expert on the MB program. She has exceptionally clear insight into the problems people experience and I highly value her input.

I saw your post on Sadmo's thread. I was pretty sure you'd see a lot of similarity between her case and your situation. Things aren't exactly the same (they're more like parallels than duplicates) but I think you can learn from the pros who posted on Sadmo's thread.

Your WH is indeed becoming entrenched in a new persona. There’s an old C&W song about someone being married and acting single – I just can’t quit locate it in my collection to replay it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your husband wants his "freedom," as he put in his EN list, but he also wants you sitting at home as a fallback plan. Frankly, unless something happens to jar him out of this pattern, he can keep it up for years, and I’m inclined to say he’d be indulging himself with brief affairs or ONS’s from time to time. If something doesn't influence him to recommit to the marriage, those will be years of grinding agony for you and your daughter.

A 180 might be the way to go if you do not want to consider the possibility you might need to do a legal separation when you implement Plan B. Before you go that far though, you need to go back to Orchid’s question and outline your plan for how you’re going to proceed…and what your time limit for each phase is.

Now…are you comfortable proceeding with Dr. Harley's program using the criteria that until your husband recommits to the relationship, he's still a WH? Since you've indicated some discomfort with that definition, I hope you call the radio program to see what Dr. Harley's opinion is. I’m going to wait to hear what you get from the radio show or from SH, okay?

BTW, I think when your husband tries to throw things back on some action of yours, he’s using a manipulation method that is very similar to a form of emotional abuse known as “gaslighting.” The term comes from an old black and white movie (circa 1940, and a re-release in 1944) where a husband uses the technique to terrorize his wife. [i]People use gaslighting to deflect criticism of themselves and to avoid taking responsibility for whatever they find uncomfortable addressing directly…and honestly.

Here is a thread about gaslighting started by our friend, Mulan. I think you’ll find her first paragraph incredibly illuminating. I believe your husband is using the technique as a ploy to keep you off guard and powerless. As you can see, it’s a control technique, one that keeps you back on your heels and perpetually on the defensive. After all, if it’s always your fault, you can’t be “right” in any discussion, can you? In such a circumstance, he appoints himself as the one in charge, and the technique confirms his status in his and your mind.

[b][i] [color:"blue"] Mulan’s Thread On Gaslighting [/color] [/i][/b]

I think it would be a good idea to educate yourself on gaslighting and practice how to turn it aside. Don’t fall for the technique and prepare yourself to redirect the discussion back to the correct channel.

For the example you use, perhaps something you could use is to initiate a dialogue about ENs and which ones he wasn’t meeting that made your marriage vulnerable to you having an affair? Just a “for instance.” I’m sure you could find your own calm reply. It’s a matter of attitude. Don't be afraid. The status quo can be changed.

ttyl

LH
More homework! ... LH you are a tough, but wonderful teacher! I will call the radio show tomorrow, and I will study the links you provided.

I wanted to break down what I've learned from Sadmo's thread, so that I can develop my plan more accurately and thoroughly. Hope you all don't mind! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Step away and let him come find you. He needs to make the greater effort

I think I can handle this.

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Part of the beauty of the plans....it doesn't require as much work as many BS might think

What did you mean by this, Orchid? It seems to be requiring a lot of work ... how can I make it easier on myself?
I think that a lot of my confusion is that I was WS first ... so I feel like I can't be as tough with my plan as another BS.
It's definitely a complication, but others have gotten past it. If you've been as radically honest about your inappropriate relationship when talking with your MIL and those others you've exposed to, I think the complications can be managed.

Don't buy into his "justified revenge" theory though. The old saw about two wrongs not making a right clearly applies. Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause. Revenge isn't the best of motives in any human endeavor, btw. I don't like people who act out because they want to "get even."

Your MIL is a counselor, right? Maybe it's time to sit down with her some morning for a nice conversation over a cup of coffee? Or how about bringing it up with your IC?

BTW, any progress with finding WH an IC?
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Part of the beauty of the plans....it doesn't require as much work as many BS might think

What did you mean by this, Orchid? It seems to be requiring a lot of work ... how can I make it easier on myself?

Once the BS makes their plan A self-improvements, they become the attractive spouse. Inner beauty surpasses outer beauty by a long shot. Though both are good, I'm pushing 50 so inner beauty is easier. - LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (just kidding).


After this is done, the BS has relatively little to do. The Xws must then show their contribution which includes helping the BS and family heal.

The BS monitors and enjoys the benefits. If the BS finds they are doing most of the work, you've got to go back and reestablish the rules for recovery. Otherwise, this could lead to false recoveries which is quite painful.

L.
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If you've been as radically honest about your inappropriate relationship when talking with your MIL and those others you've exposed to, I think the complications can be managed.

H had already exposed to pretty much everyone ... long after the A was over. Either way, I have been radically honest with MIL - since she's a therapist, she's been very helpful in dealing with my inner growth as well as setting boundaries for my H.

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Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause.

I would agree with this entirely. His excuse is that in his mind, we weren't married anymore from the moment he found out about my A.

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BTW, any progress with finding WH an IC?

I haven't had any time! This week has been crazy! I was planning on working on that some tomorrow, since I don't have to work.
My H has noticed my changes ... he's commented on what a fantastic mother I've become and how this is the woman he wishes he'd been married to all along. And, just today was so surprised to hear that I was seriously thinking about going back to school (something I've put off for a long time).

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The Xws must then show their contribution which includes helping the BS and family heal.

So, I've made a lot of changes for the better. I've thought of this as a life-long journey for me - M or not. But, what happens if your H doesn't really show much of a contribution? Is this where my "strategy" needs to come in to play?
Btw - yesterday I decided to stop calling and texting him. He wasn't answering them, so I thought it best to just stop. So, suddenly today he's called more than lately. And he sent a text today saying "I think I really miss home". Then, we talked shortly after and he mentioned that the ex-gf of one of his friends sent him a text today insinuating that she'd like to have SF with him ... and he participated in the conversation!!! Its like he's trying his damnedest to mess with my head ... and he's doing a good job of it. I am trying not to let it affect me, but I must admit it does. Now I have to make a plan and stick to it

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Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would agree with this entirely. His excuse is that in his mind, we weren't married anymore from the moment he found out about my A


GTFOOH....It is more reasonable to look at it as YOUR affair started this whole mess....that his affair was a result of the wounds that YOU inflicted on him and that it would not have happened without your striking first. This is the biggest bunch of bull crappy to be thrown around here in a while. Remember... you gave him HIS excuse on a silver platter with your actions. It would have been good for him if he never did anything about it... but please... worse than yours???? Not a chance.
We never said that his A was worse than mine. We were commenting on how his actions were a more blatant betrayal. I undertand that my actions initiated our current marital situation. But you must admit MEDC, that his actions have worsened the situation. And I'm sorry that you aren't seeing that there is never an excuse for an A ... not mine, not his.

Now, if you would like to add something that might help me make a plan to save my M it would be appreciated. Otherwise, don't come here just to berate me. I am not delusional ... I know what I did, and I am not making excuses for it nor am I justifying it. He, on the other hand, is both making excuses & justifying his choices.

What would you recommend, MEDC? That I just lay down and be his doormat? That I not hold him accountable for his actions?
Well said, TFC! It sure is easy to tell the bitter ones among us, isn't it, TFC? A good rule of thumb is to note which posters resort to personal attack in order to get their points across. That’s them…the unpleasant ones. The ideas of Christian forgiveness and redemption are completely foreign to them and they can’t help but reveal themselves in time.

On the other hand, most folks have actually read your earlier posts and noted your remorse at the affair you have also completely “owned.” Most everyone has seen that you, when you came to your senses, did exactly what every betrayed spouse out here would give their right arms for their wayward spouse to have done. Most folks try to assist those in need instead of mocking them, don’t they?


*****

Not calling WH or texting (I can’t believe that’s actually a verb) him is one of the techniques in a good 180. Are you practicing already? It’s had an effect already, huh? That’s good, but I’d caution against reading too much into it. Remember, he began appearing to come closer to you when he was away last time. Beware of overreacting.

First things first. You need that program Orchid asked you about. I’ve been talking “plan” for a long time and I must apologize for not seeing you didn’t have as good a one as I assumed you did. The false recovery also threw me off and I’m very sorry I didn’t see well enough through the trees to discern the forest, to coin a pompous little phrase. A solid strategy of what you’re going to do, what boundaries you will enforce, what he must commit to, whether to extend Plan A, when to go to Plan B, etc., etc., are all good things to address.

Side note: TFC, you mentioned at one time you wanted to write him letters (and maybe text him?) while he’s away on these trips. I personally don’t like letters...because they are a kind of detached, disconnected (as it were) means of communication. I like face-to-face interaction.

BUT...Dr. Harley has remarked that in some instances, letters, telephone calls, (and text messages I presume, though he didn’t specifically mention them) can better simply because the wayward spouse isn’t ready for the intensity of a personal conversations. I note your husband “gets closer” to you when he’s on a road trip. So…I wonder if you might consider reviving that idea and try to communicate some things you can’t say in person through a letter you sneak into his luggage or something like that? We’ve discussed he’s not ready for too much relationship stuff, but I wonder if he were to read about some areas related to that, but not quite on that topic? It’s a raw idea. Can you add something to it? Whatcha think?

Comments Orchid, Mulan, Melody, et al? Mrs. W., your input would be highly valued, as would Dorry’s if you happen to know whether she’s still around.

LH
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Not calling WH or texting (I can’t believe that’s actually a verb) him is one of the techniques in a good 180. Are you practicing already?

Not really. I just decided that I wasn't going to let myself feel rejected by him anymore.

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First things first. You need that program Orchid asked you about. I’ve been talking “plan” for a long time and I must apologize for not seeing you didn’t have as good a one as I assumed you did. The false recovery also threw me off and I’m very sorry I didn’t see well enough through the trees to discern the forest, to coin a pompous little phrase. A solid strategy of what you’re going to do, what boundaries you will enforce, what he must commit to, whether to extend Plan A, when to go to Plan B, etc., etc., are all good things to address.

I unfortunately mistook "plan" to mean Plan A or B. I need a "strategy" and that is my goal today. I've tried with boundaries before, but came up short. Plan A is not about having your spouse commit to anything right? Well, I am seeking a commitment to work on the M - in words and in actions. Plan A is not about expecting your needs to be met, right? Well, I've gone without many needs met for quite some time now and find myself longing for them to be met and hanging on for dear life every time one is met even in the smallest way. So, it seems to me that I made the mistake of sort-of saying "adios" to Plan A right after he ended his A. Should I have stayed in Plan A longer? I'm beginning to wonder ...

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I note your husband “gets closer” to you when he’s on a road trip. So…I wonder if you might consider reviving that idea and try to communicate some things you can’t say in person through a letter you sneak into his luggage or something like that? We’ve discussed he’s not ready for too much relationship stuff, but I wonder if he were to read about some areas related to that, but not quite on that topic? It’s a raw idea. Can you add something to it? Whatcha think?

Well, as I mentioned, I feel rejected every time I try to communicate in any way. How can I make attempts like these and expect no response?

I'm wondering if I should consider my first 3 months of Plan A as the period of time in which I needed to prove to him that I might be worth keeping around.

I would appreciate any guidance anyone has to offer. I am feeling rather lost with regards to my strategy, yet I feel I need one ASAP!
what you did say was quoted... that it could be said that his was a worse betrayal.... that is what I responded to.

I never suggested that you lay down to be his doormat......nor do I think his affair was okay. Ask yourself why the vets here with the exception on Longhorn has basically avoided your thread. Remember not that long ago when the type of logic you used above caused them to go on the attack? I stayed and offered to help... but I will not enable crazy thinking like you outlined above... just won't do it. You have a person like LH that does a good job of that.... and frankly, it will get you no where.
The strategy that you were given by the vets here still remains true.... Plan A and work on YOU.... remember you can't change him... just yourself. Be patient.... even though you have admitted that is not a strongsuit of yours. You will be rejected at times... deal with it. He will fence sit at times... deal with it. Expect that it will happen and it will be easier.
First off, the quote was what LH said ... and I agreed that the betrayal could be considered worse. I didn't say "I agree. I think his A was worse than mine." Did I? I simply understood the thought behind it - not once have I tried to see which A was "worse", nor do I think that was what LH was doing. I took it that LH was trying to remind me that my H knew the damage his A would cause ... as sort of a reminder that my H could be still acting out for retribution. LH - am I far off base here?

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Ask yourself why the vets here with the exception on Longhorn has basically avoided your thread.

From what I have seen, Longhorn is a respected MB vet. Maybe some of the vets will comment on MEDC's note that you have all "avoided" my thread?
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Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause.


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I would agree with this entirely. His excuse is that in his mind, we weren't married anymore from the moment he found out about my A


Pretty much self explanatory. I WOULD AGREE WITH THIS ENTIRELY.... your words.
Again, MEDC, you aren't understanding what I am saying ... I agreed "entirely" that "IT COULD BE SAID ... " - this was not either of us saying "IT IS MY OPINION". To me, these are two entirely different things: One says "in theory" the other says "I believe". Theories aren't what I live by - I live by my beliefs. I choose not to "rate" our As in order of which was worse. I believe (what I live by) that they were both wrong.

I will admit that when I first came here I had a lot of learning to do, and that I didn't fully see where I needed to just work on me. I have grown quite a bit, whether you see it or not. My H has seen it. I am proud of the woman I am becoming. As this improved version of myself, I have higher expectations for myself and the future of my M. I would like to see my M flourish from all this heartache. And I believe that it can. But in order for my H and I to move forward in our M and make it flourish, we BOTH have to work on the M. I have proven that I am willing to change myself and work on the M ... now my H needs to do the same if he chooses to stay M to me. I don't think that is absurd or out of line.

I stated earlier that my goal today was to develop a strategy for myself (note that it is for ME, not for changing my H) ... that is what I am seeking to achieve here today. I am not going to try to defend myself against your lack of understanding for what was said - you can choose to believe what you wish. I must say, that you seem to only find the negative in me. I have been able to tell for quite some time that you and I have personalities that clash.
See, that is where you are wrong... I do see change in you... change for the better...but that does not mean that you won't be called on things you say or agree with... in theory or not.
Your H will decide what he needs to do. YOU get to decide what you can and should do.... and the whole point of my posts to you is given the can of worms that YOU opened up in his life, I feel that you owe him a lot more patience than you have displayed up until now. Patience will benefit you both...and it will allow you to realize that you cannot control the actions of another... just as your H had no control over your rutting with the OM.
And you are right we do have personalities that clash.... I clash with quite a few people at times...but note to you here... you have clashed with many on this site...even those that have shown a willingness to be patient with some pretty foggy WS. The question is why... and the answers are in your first thread.
Now... I gave you advice before... and it remains the same... be patient with your H and work on you. You have stated that he is noticing the changes...good, you are ahead of the game. Now, keep doing the work and see where it leads him.
Just my 2 cents.
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Don't buy into his "justified revenge" theory though. The old saw about two wrongs not making a right clearly applies. Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause. Revenge isn't the best of motives in any human endeavor, btw. I don't like people who act out because they want to "get even."

You've got the right idea, TFC. If an objective person re-reads what I said, they'll see I was urging you to not buy in to an assertion by WH that he was entitled to have an affair because you did. I stand by what I said. If someone accidentally hits another person's bumper in traffic, that is one thing. If the “victim” in this analogy broods about the accident, becomes bitter, and drives the streets every day looking for an opportunity to retaliate against the first, sincerely apologetic, driver…then that is something calculatedly cruel and malicious. It's worse than the initial accident, and that’s what I was trying to get across.

Let’s summarize.

I’m not downplaying the effect your affair has had on the marriage, TFC, but I recognize you can’t go back in time and undo something. You have to deal with the situation as it exists today. To keep carping about you having been the first to allow yourself to slip into infidelity is counterproductive. In previous posts, I’ve suggested you and your WH need to get into couples counseling as soon as possible to jointly resolve the fallout from that event, but it isn’t possible at the moment because of resistance from your WH. The smart thing to do, as you’ve been doing, is to deal with the problem at hand and hope for mutual healing when WH is ready for it. You’ve told us you are seeing an IC to explore how you could have left your integrity behind for that time in your life.

Additionally, I’ve read your early posts and I think you instinctively did those things you could that normally would allow your WH to heal. The problem is he wasn’t receptive. From your account of this whole tragedy (and before you even read SAA), you began to apply Dr. Harley’s Four Rules of Marital Recovery to the extent you could. Additionally, I saw distinct remorse in your words and your actions. These are exemplary things for a wayward spouse to do.

A quick look at the active threads on this board show there are many, many betrayed spouses who are months into a bona fide recovery but who have yet to receive an apology or any sign of remorse from their wayward spouses. You, on the other hand, skipped months of fog and went right to an attempted recovery. As I said, many, many betrayed spouses out here would give their right arms to have their wayward spouses behave in such a fashion.

I personally don’t believe there is any value to a suggestion you should, in some fashion, be publicly castigated and punished in some arcane manner. Some people do, for whatever reason they may have. They frequently use words with high negative connotations in order to shame others, they mock other people’s ideas, and they deliberately use personal invective as a weapon. I personally will never understand why some people get stuck in that mode and refuse to budge.

I suspect they think they’re showing “tough love,” having been attracted to that policy at some point in their lives. Unfortunately, they don’t ever see the negative things they do by applying that technique at inappropriate times. Though they have contributions to make from time to time, whatever good they could do is lost in the flood of negativism they spout as a knee-jerk reaction. Regretfully, they do far more damage than they ever do good.

Frankly, it’s not helpful, it’s not intellectually honest and it’s not in keeping with Dr. Harley’s principles.


*****

Keep working on your strategy, lady. That’s the important thing, but don’t rush it. It’s been months since this all began and you can afford a few days to explore things and set things up properly.

Boundaries are important. How about re-reading Ark’s recent post about Plan A? There’s a section on boundaries in that thread. Then browse through other threads on boundaries using the search feature at the top of your thread. That’s quite a project but I think you’ll get a pretty good understanding very quickly.

You’re right. Plan A is for the betrayed spouse and expecting anything from the WS is an expectation that just isn’t going to be met. Again, re-read Ark’s post, but Plan A...and Plan B, for that matter...are for the betrayed spouse. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a subliminal effect, as it were, on the wayward spouse. Perhaps you can take a quick review of SAA’s discussion of Plan A and B? If you do, please note Dr. Harley talks about the pressures unmet emotional needs has on the wayward one.

You must set your own time limits for Plan A. We can't see everything that's in your mind...only you know that. As a guidline, Dr. Harley tells us three months is about the average limit for a woman and six months for a man, and he tells us why in SAA. But averages are built from time lengths that are shorter, and longer than the median. SH regularly recommends doing a Plan A for as long as you can. I think a good rule of thumb would be to carefully gauge your own emotions. When you begin to feel resentment, when the emotional fatigue begins to overwhelm you, when the anger begins to return, then it’s time to move to Plan B.

I hope you get a chance to call the radio show. I think your case would be of interest and it would benefit you enormously to hear again from Dr. Harley.

Hang in there, TFC.
Well, H opened his own bank account today ... "just to be able to transfer money to the joint account while out of town". I had asked him to just overnight the check to me so I could deposit it. RED FLAG!
Orchid once said:
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The heart on the other hand often does NOT want to believe the one who loved and protected the family has now become enemy #1. Denial often resides in the heart and there in lies the internal war.

How often have you said during this journey..... 'I know what I s/b doing but I am not ready t/d it (i.e. plan A, B or D), yet.' Or somethng similar. Comments like these show the mind and heart are NOT in sync.

Making life changing decisions while in this disconnected state of mind is dangerous. Some BS' give away what rightfully belongs to the family and in some cases it has devastated them.

My head and heart are NOT in sync! I am not ready to "move on" with or without my H. I have tried to feel this way, but can't. I also do not WANT to move on with or without my H. I want him as my H, but I have no control over this. I think that this is what is keeping me from setting boundaries. I want him to be my H so bad, that I'll accept just about anything even though I know I shouldn't!
Awwww, darn it. He's continuing to detach and making arbitrary decisions that you’re not a party to. If he rekindles a relationship with OW, or finds a new one, the separate account makes it easier to hide. There’s a chance he’s learning how to better hide things.

The “date” worries me too. I'm afraid it's going to be a thing that appears to be conciliatory on its face, but really has a deeper agenda. I wonder how he’ll orchestrate the whole evening.

I really, really hope I’m wrong. I’m seeing a resemblance to other people’s cases where one spouse or the other began building a case for being able to say, ”Well, I tried…” I hope I’m wrong.

Well, I’m sorry you can’t keep doing a Plan A, but when it gets to a certain point, when your Love Bank is nearly exhausted, and when your love for WH is in serious jeopardy, then there’s nothing more you can do. You have to get some relief from what I saw someone write the other day is the “tyranny of having your love bank completely depleted.”

My only suggestion would be to caution you I see your emotions are very high today. Can you reevaluate the time limit after a good night’s sleep? It’s your decision, of course.

I understand your Love Bank is almost drained. The problem with him depositing small deposits…crumbs of affection, being decent, and seeming to come closer (while he’s on the road), etc….is that while he’s depositing small increments at a distance, that deposit is later “withdrawn” because of the way he acts when he gets home. It seems to me, it’s been a while since he’s really tried to meet your EN's. Comment?

Is there no way you will consider a legal separation when you go into Plan B? I think it would be better for your daughter and you if you were not ripped from your home because your WH won’t see the light. Remember, Plan B can be something that can last for one or two years. A legal separation can help secure your financial situation and provide an interim settlement on such things as child support and spousal support.
We cross-posted.

TFC, if your heart and mind are not in sync, take the time you need to get them together. Use your IC as a resource and your girlfriend there you've spoken of before. Talk to family. We'll be here to support you too. You can see the tragedy of wanting something too badly in spite of what your eyes see, right? Orchid's post mentioned that too and, regretfully, Sadmo's thread illustrates the concept. Take your time and sort this out, okay? This is not going to be easy but you WILL get through it, Lady.
Cross-posting again! LOL

She also said this:
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See, we learned to live without him.....yet he never learned to live without us. So even though he had the A, he was more attached to us than we were to him.

We have learned to live without my H, as he is only home about 5 days a month. I think he would be hard pressed to live without us ... or so I'm guessing (he's said a bunch of times that he wants to move, I've said ok, he still hasn't).

I am emotional today ... I'm wearing thin. Too much stress, too little sleep. I will try to sleep well tonight and re-think all this. I suppose I was being a bit rash there.

The "date" concerns me too! We'll just see how it goes. We just had a conversation about the new bank account. He suggested that we move "our" finances to the new bank too. Its still concerning. I am willing to consider a legal separation for Plan B, but he has expressed his determination not to move from the home (even though he says he wants to).

I guess I'm just so confused by all the different signs. He called XOM last night and again this morning ... not sure why and he hasn't told me anything about it. He's being nice, but distant on this trip.

Btw - He just said to me "Well, I thought me coming home for Mother's Day was enough to keep you in a good mood all week!" I just said "I'm in a great mood! What makes you think I'm not?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Yes, on the emotion thing, it's a highly emotional situation so being on edge is to be expected. I just keep remembering things Grandma used to say and one of them was, "Act in haste, repent in leisure." In my opinion, Grandma was a far better practical psychologist than many actually in that vocation. I miss her.

Hubby wants points for doing what other men would do without even thinking of not being there. That's disconcerting. A crumb is supposed to keep you happy all week? I may be unduly harsh, but I'm not very impressed, particularly when he says it on the same date he sets up a personal banking account.

I'd like others to chime in on this, but I don't recall ever hearing of a BS wanting to have anything personal to do with the XOM. There have been family members who are the XOM and BS's haven't wanted that much to do with them. That relationship will bear watching.

The thing about a legal separation is that he won't have a choice about moving out. The writ will require him to. You need to talk to your attorney, but I think you really need to establish possession of the home in case the worst case scenario plays out. Besides, all of your daughters friends are there, right? BTW, he won't consider moving as long as he's cake eating.

You and your daughter should do something fun tonight. MacDonalds and a movie?
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I just keep remembering things Grandma used to say and one of them was, "Act in haste, repent in leisure." In my opinion, Grandma was a far better practical psychologist than many actually in that vocation. I miss her.

Sounds like your Grandma was a smart lady! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Hubby wants points for doing what other men would do without even thinking of not being there. That's disconcerting. A crumb is supposed to keep you happy all week? I may be unduly harsh, but I'm not very impressed, particularly when he says it on the same date he sets up a personal banking account.

I agree ... though I'm sure others will think that I am expecting too much. I couldn't believe he said that! Well, on second thought ...

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I'd like others to chime in on this, but I don't recall ever hearing of a BS wanting to have anything personal to do with the XOM. There have been family members who are the XOM and BS's haven't wanted that much to do with them. That relationship will bear watching.

I would like others to chime in here too. Even though XOM was his BF, why the sudden phone calls to him? If he is looking for info on the A, he is talking to the wrong person. I've heard XOM's accounts of the A (via my H), and they are way off base.

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The thing about a legal separation is that he won't have a choice about moving out. The writ will require him to. You need to talk to your attorney, but I think you really need to establish possession of the home in case the worst case scenario plays out. Besides, all of your daughters friends are there, right? BTW, he won't consider moving as long as he's cake eating.

True ... cake-eating spouses are getting their way on all sides of the fence, so why upset the status-quo? And I've already established that I plan on keeping the house in case of D.

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You and your daughter should do something fun tonight. MacDonalds and a movie?

Movie night it is!
I am putting together a budget right now and going through this years bank statements ... very interesting! In Jan & Feb he spent around $300 on going out (each month, not collectively)! And, just before he went out of town once at the end of March, he told me that his mom gave him $200 ... guess what? She gave him $500! How about that? Wondering if I should confront on this?
HI, I'm not familiar with your post but JMO, I would keep that under raps...if you're in Plan A and are planning to go to B...this would not be good...

Like Bugs and a few others you want to move into Plan B with a bang, so he'll remember it!
Strivn - Thanks for coming over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are you saying wait until I go into Plan B to bring this up, or don't bring it up at all?
Should you go into Plan B you need to go completely dark and quiet on him. Suddenly and Surprisingly.

If you confront him on the money he will deny it anyway. It looks like a no win to me.
He will deny it, but the proof is in the bank statement. So, since I know the truth, no need to ask right?

If you are in Plan B, how did you know when to begin? I am struggling with the mind-heart sync thing that Orchid speaks of. And I have that icky A of my own hanging over my head ... which I think to some means that I have no reason to Plan B my H. But his A is over (as far as I can tell) and he's still not showing any real signs of deciding to be in a M.
No, just be quite about it...should you decide to D later, you can use this info...I was reading about an hour ago how the money used to buy things for OP can be reimbursed to the BS during the D process...

Keep that under your hat...I recommend gathering as much info as you can now...you never know when you may need it! Make copies now, and hide them...
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Orchid once said:
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The heart on the other hand often does NOT want to believe the one who loved and protected the family has now become enemy #1. Denial often resides in the heart and there in lies the internal war.

How often have you said during this journey..... 'I know what I s/b doing but I am not ready t/d it (i.e. plan A, B or D), yet.' Or somethng similar. Comments like these show the mind and heart are NOT in sync.

Making life changing decisions while in this disconnected state of mind is dangerous. Some BS' give away what rightfully belongs to the family and in some cases it has devastated them.

My head and heart are NOT in sync! I am not ready to "move on" with or without my H. I have tried to feel this way, but can't. I also do not WANT to move on with or without my H. I want him as my H, but I have no control over this. I think that this is what is keeping me from setting boundaries. I want him to be my H so bad, that I'll accept just about anything even though I know I shouldn't!

Then u gotta be patient. If you wait, it will come. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pray for that clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. You can't rush how you feel.

The scary piece is once a BS gets to that point it is the WS that is in danger of losing everything.

L.
I suppose that emotions are running high for me this week. I didn't sleep well again last night! I woke up this morning very upset and angry ... angry about the calls to XOM, angry about the new bank account, angry that he thought coming home early would "keep [me] in a good mood all week" - well, you get the point. He has distanced himself and is acting peculiar.

Orchid - I'm thinking that in order to prevent getting angry with him, I need to babble back? Will you help me out? Here are 2 times I wish I could've babbled back, instead of biting my tongue:

1 - Yesterday he opened that bank account. After a while, I asked him why didn't he just overnight the checks to me instead of opening a new account. His response? "This way I don't get [you-know-what] on the road again". All I could think was - YOU? What about us?

2 - Also, he has been calling DD less and less. Yesterday he decided to call several times instead of the just one time a day he had been. DD was really pissy about Daddy being out of town and them not talking as much. So, he says to me "I think she's upset because I've been calling so much" ... WHAT!?! Why on earth would you think that!?! She's been used to you calling her every couple of hours on all of your trips until recently, and now once a day is supposed to make her happy?
What I expect in a marriage:
I expect quality time spent alone with me.
I expect quality time spent with our daughter.
I expect marriage counseling for at least 3 months.
I expect full-transparency about all financial matters.
I expect returning to the home immediately after all business in town, and to the hotel after all business out of town. (Out of town trips – I must be able to contact you at any given point. You must be reachable at the location you are staying – specifically a hotel.)
I expect most in-town work to be done during the day to allow for more family time.
I expect all personal contact with females to cease immediately.
I expect all business contact with women to be disclosed within the day, with information about the conversations.
I won’t accept dishonesty about finances.
I won’t accept lack of information about daily activities.
I won’t accept independent behaviors.

How am I doing? Is all this reasonable? Or am I off my rocker?
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I expect full-transparency about all financial matters.

How about full transparency period? That will eliminate the need for these...What about Open and honesty? POJA?

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I expect all personal contact with females to cease immediately.
I expect all business contact with women to be disclosed within the day, with information about the conversations.
I won’t accept dishonesty about finances.
I won’t accept lack of information about daily activities.


Just me thinkin'... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I wanted to be as specific as possible ... H tends to twist things to suit him. But I "hear" what you're sayin'!

I want to let him know that I expect my HUSBAND home tomorrow ... NOT the person he's been this week! The person he's been this week isn't wanted in our home. Is that a reasonable request?
Well, H is very independent these days ... new bank account, distancing from DD, distancing from his parents & sister, distancing himself from me, not answering phone calls, etc. So, he's either hiding contact really well, or just still has wayward mentality.

Orchid -

In a post of yours, you talked about how you asked your H to identify himself as H or WH. Although my H is no longer a WH, he still has that mentality. I want my H home. How did you get him to do this? What did that conversation sound like?
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Well, H is very independent these days ... new bank account, distancing from DD, distancing from his parents & sister, distancing himself from me, not answering phone calls, etc. So, he's either hiding contact really well, or just still has wayward mentality.

Orchid -

In a post of yours, you talked about how you asked your H to identify himself as H or WH. Although my H is no longer a WH, he still has that mentality. I want my H home. How did you get him to do this? What did that conversation sound like?

Your H still has the WS mindset. This means he is still a Ws, just keeping his pants on....still a bad creature to have in your home.

when mine was like that, I refused to communicate with him when he acted as a WS. I call it plan A your spouse but plan B the Ws. This isn't an MB sanctioned idea. It was what I used to help me. It worked for me.

The WS can manifest itself at any given time. Even in the middle of a sentence, I have seen the Ws morph back. Scary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I practiced learned how to detect the WS from H. It wasn't as hard as I thought. Reverse babble helped me.

I will post more later.

L.
He came home yesterday as WH ... "its all about ME"! I sort of just ignored him when he was being that way. But when my H would show his pretty face, I would interact very positively. By the end of the day, he was my H for the rest of the night! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He mentioned that his new bank account couldn't be a joint account because (obviously) I wasn't with him when he opened it, but we could make it as such. So, I'm wondering if I should see which day we can take care of that this week?
He doesn't want to add me to his new account ... and he lied about how much money was in it. Then tonight he asks me why I seem so nervous about his upcoming trip. I told him that it was because of the debauchery from the last time he was there ... he said he understood and that nothing like that would ever happen again.

There are so many mixed signals he sends that I don't know what to think. I need to not feel like I'm going crazy. I know that if I go into Plan B, it will ruin our chances - he will say that I gave up on it. And I really don't want to do Plan B. How long should I wait for him to decide whether or not to give this M a shot? I know I need to be patient, but shouldn't a decision be made sometime in the near future?
He's depositing more to the new account than he said?

Seems to me, he's getting more distant all the time. There was a short spell when he seemed to be coming out of the fog, but now it's closed in again. WS's often do that when they've resumed contact with the OP. Are you sure he hasn't found some other means of communicating with her, TFC?

I don't understand why you're asking about how long to wait while he makes a decision on whether to work on the marriage. If you're not going to do a 180 or a Plan B, I don't know what you can do except stay where you are, doing exactly what you're doing now, while you wait for the game he's playing to finish. If you wait long enough, the decision will be taken out of your hands.

As for feeling crazy, did you read Mulan's "Gaslighting" thread? You don't see what he's doing?

TFC, you've been very strong in this whole thing and now is not the time to give in and let the adultery dictate to you what you're going to do with your life and your daughter's welfare. If you can be strong for a little while longer, and do something about the neverending assault on your sensibilities, you will come out of this sane and whole. I can't promise your marriage will survive, no one can. But I can tell you that you and your daughter will make it. Hang in there, lady.
Thank you LH!

About the account - he originally deposited X amount into his new account and transferred about 2/3 of X into our joint account. Then last night tells me that he has Y amount to deposit into our joint account. When I asked how much he had in his account, he answered Z amount. Z amount was a complete lie - he left the bank receipt sticking out of a zipper in his suitcase.

I want to sit him down and have a money talk, but I'm not sure that it would do any good. But I just want him to see how much he is hurting our family financially. But he is so stuck in his world/fog that I don't think it would do any good. Therefore, I am taking steps to further protect us financially today.

I did read Mulan's thread ... and every time he does something like that, all I can think is "Gaslighting! He is soooooooo gaslighting right now!" I'll re-read the thread today for some encouragement on handling this better.

He is certainly distancing more and more. I suppose I need to start trying to detach from the situation, as I am allowing it to affect me more and more instead of less and less.

I shouldn't be asking how long until he makes a decision ... I should be asking myself how long I'm willing to wait for him to show a commitment to our M.
I'm glad you're taking those financial security steps today, TFC. I regret it, but I think it's necessary to protect yourself and your daughter from a WH who is increasingly in a fog it appeared he was coming out of at one point.

I’ve gone over all your posts in this thread and, in a sense, things aren’t as bad now as they once were. (In another sense, things are worse because I’m afraid the current detachment is deliberate, where the “acting out” was more emotional and poorly considered than anything else.) At one point he was running around, acting single, and not bothering to even come home after nights out. He was singularly unapologetic about it too.

He cleaned up his act and it appeared he was going to begin to work with you on the marriage…and then something happened. He seems to have inexplicably reversed course again, though his “acting out” isn’t in the same mold as it was before. Is there any event you can think of that occurred about the same time his new attitude began to assert itself?

As far as combating gaslighting, I think reverse babble would be a very effective thing to use. Alternately, you could establish a boundary of not listening to demeaning remarks intended to manipulate you. You can’t control his speech, but you can certainly set up a boundary that you won’t listen. He controls his actions; you control yours. If you courteously let him know you’re not going to be spoken to in that fashion and walk out of the room when he starts something like that, he’ll get the idea pretty quickly. Reverse babble AND turning around and walking away might have interesting results.

Detachment and determining how long your love can last when WH seems to be working hard at distancing himself are difficult questions. He’s distancing himself emotionally from you, and I sense from his daughter also, though you haven’t specifically said so. It’s especially troubling because it seems to be part of a deliberate plan. In short, and very regretfully, I see your WH engaging in a pattern of behavior that isn’t very promising. As you say, I think if you let him control how the end game plays out in this, you and your daughters may wind up victims. I don't want to see that.

Comments, folks?
Guess its just you LH ...

You'll be proud of me. Today he began the gaslighting worse than ever before! I just said to him: "You are welcome to turn things around if it makes you feel better. But keep that to yourself because its just not reality and I don't have to listen to it."

I also asked if we would need the sitter tomorrow or not (remember it was for our date?) and he didn't know what for! Then he admitted that he hadn't forgotten about it, but he hadn't really thought about it either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
time, I've been following your posts too, but haven't responded. I am at a loss right now myself, therefore not much advice from me, but lots of support! Best wishes on all you are doing and I hope your H comes through for you soon.
LH / TFC

I have been reading these today and am perplexed also.

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Is there any event you can think of that occurred about the same time his new attitude began to assert itself?


Do you think that the encounter with XOM may be the root of this latest chapter? It seems to have happen around the same time.

I wonder what was discussed? What was shared ?

It seems your H went down hill after the encounter. Something is brewing. Perhaps WH has checked out and just preparing and waiting the right moment. Very strange.
Too funny! I was literally just reading one of yours! Keeping you in my prayers ...
-TFC
Rwinger - I agree that the encounter with XOM is probably what triggered this ...

I don't know much about the encounter other than the little that he told me.

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Perhaps WH has checked out and just preparing and waiting the right moment. Very strange.

This is exactly what I'm thinking ...
But then he backpedals and makes attempts to reconcile when he can tell that he has upset me. So, I'm just not sure ...
Okay, it's not just me being suspicious then. I actually see two possibilities: (1) The affair has been rekindled (or there is another OW, even a series of ONS), or (2) he has indeed checked out and is in the process of justifying it in his own mind and packaging it for public consumption. Either way, something is going on that is not clear right now. It'll become more obvious later, I'm sure.

The incident where he ran into the FOM was also the only thing I could see in your writing that would seem to be anything approaching a turning point. Perhaps seeing and talking with him brought back all of the frustration and pain WH experienced when he first learned of your affair? But why would he seem to stay in contact with FOM? Have you noticed any contact between them since last week?

I wonder if your IC could explain why WH and FOM might be reforging their friendship? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not terribly surprised you caught him off guard with a question about the date tomorrow. Something about the date really bothers me, but I'm frequently paranoid when there's something I don't understand.

Keep up the reverse babble and not allowing inappropriate remarks. Reverse babble can be a relaxing, even an amusing pastime...and it has an effect on the alien.

Hang in there, TFC.
I'm guessing its #2, LH. I have become quite the detective, so I don't think I would miss a beat if he were talking to her or anyone else.

The XOM encounter is the only thing that has been unusual or unpleasant, as far as I know. I thought about asking him about it, but I don't know that I would get an answer. So, I will ask my IC this week. I'm willing to bet he's confused us all on this one!

The most recent trip, he stayed with some friends and they gave their opinion of whether or not he should stay M to me. I asked if he told them the whole[ story about himself as well. He wavered on saying "yes" ... then I picked out certain things like "So, they know that you've had your own revenge affair? They know about you spending the night with her? They know about all the women you were acting inappropriately with?" He didn't have much of a response to that, so I'm guessing they only know 1/2 the story. I told him that either way, other people's opinions have no place in our M. That this is between he & I.

As for our "date" ... last night, I asked if the sitter had called yet. He said "no, why?" I told him that I needed to let her know that I wouldn't need her. He just grunted. A couple of minutes later he said something like "well, you can come if you want to." I just said "no thank you". He asked what was wrong and I explained that I thought it was very rude for him to invite me to something and then not follow through. That issue was never resolved - I just ended up saying I wasn't going (even thought I still really want to).

And here come the mixed signals ...
I was getting ready for bed last night and he sat down and talked to me. He apologized for the argument we'd had earlier in the day and then we talked about how we could have handled it better. All this was initiated by HIM, not ME.

A couple o' things he said yesterday:
"I see that you've changed, I just can't believe all the hype just yet. I need to know its for good."
"You don't see yourself as a victim here ... do you?"
"Wouldn't your life be easier without me?"

And something a friend of his said to him about me:
"I know how vague you can be at times. And with TFC not knowing what's up or down with you right now, she's still being really supportive of you and your career. That's pretty cool of her. Pretty cool." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Just my 2 cents here TFC... when you stop feeling like a victim in this situation.... you will stop being a victim. Your H not believing the "hype" yet is normal... and he shouldn't until it is proven to him.
Your H should not have had an affair... not because it hurt you...but because it hurt him. You got bit by the very snake that you invited into your M... sad but true. But I doubt very highly that his friends would give a rats butt if they thought he had an affair of his own.
I still think that your wavering as to how to handle this and your lack of patience (last week you posted that you were going to plan B and then changed the post) is a detrement to you here. Remember that a FWS or WS is no bargain for a partner. There are easier roads out there for any BS to take than to deal with the baggage that an affair brings to a marriage.
Your H is testing you... in some ways you are doing well... but in my opinion, in the one area where you need to stand tall, you are falling short... patience. You get opinions here TFC... but find something off when he is getting opinions from those he trusts. And you say that opinions don't belong on your marriage (yet I suspect that would only include opinions that YOU don't agree with) and you end your post with ... an opinion from one of his friends.
Most likely you will continue to dismiss any criticism of your handling of things...and obviously that is your right...but I will again ask you as to why the majority of vets are ignoring your thread...is it because your situation is so perplexing that they can't help you... or is it something else...attitude.
Just my thoughts.

MEDC
1. I don't feel like a victim. I don't feel like any of this was done TO me.
2. I am being as patient as I can and I have stated before that I realize that patience is something I need to work on - and I'm trying. Obviously I'm wavering ... there are a lot of mixed signals here and it can be very confusing. I want to do what's best for my M and it is difficult to know just what that is.
3. "Remember that a FWS or WS is no bargain for a partner. There are easier roads out there for any BS to take than to deal with the baggage that an affair brings to a marriage." - Then I suppose that neither of us are a bargain. But we are married and have a family and still love each other, so I think its worth trying to save.
4. I get opinions here, he gets them from his friends. I think we have both done a good job of not allowing the opinions of others to make our decisions for us. (A perfect example is me deciding NOT to do Plan B.)
5. I can accept criticism of how I'm handling things, and can admit where I have faults. But I think that you read me wrong, or maybe I present myself wrong. I am not self-righteous, indignant, or perfect.

Since you keep mentioning that everyone is "avoiding" my thread, maybe we should just ask? I would like to know if all the vets think that I have an attitude problem so that I can change my wording to reflect my feelings (as I do not feel anything but confused, lost, concerned, willing, etc.).
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Then I suppose that neither of us are a bargain


Others would strongly disagree with me on this... but I don't look at you as a BS... I know your H had an affair...but the only betrayals that I see are...

Your affair.
His betraying his own morals.

What I do see is a FWW that has been bitten by the very thing that she invited into her M. I liken it to having a fight... don't blame the other person for punching you in the nose after they have absorbed punches from you. In that case... even though you have a bloody nose, you are not the victim, but the instigator. Would it have been better for your H to turn the other cheek and not hit back.... yep... it would have allowed him to remain on the moral high ground. But how it impacts the person that brought this into the M in the first place, IMO, does not rise to the level of betrayal.
And I never said "everyone" is avoiding your thread...I said the "majority" of vets.
Some folks think of themselves as superior to the rest of us and they’re quite certain they’re entitled to lecture everyone else on their transgressions. Unfortunately, they have only one mindless theme they spout again and again. Some folks think helping consists of bashing others whenever they find someone vulnerable.

Some folks have only one view of the Christian ethic of redemption...and it involves burning at the stake. Some folks write as if they were filled with righteous indignation at another’s faults – they’re the ones with so little empathy, they vie to cast the first stone.

Some folks wrap a lot of words around their need to hurt others and call it “tough love,” but it’s really just narrow-minded, pompous posturing. Some folks call their vilification of others “insightful,” but it’s really just intolerant ranting. They call what they do “straight speaking,” but its only intent is to crush other people’s spirits. Some folks’ ego are fed by such things.

In short, some folks are trolls in a different guise, but they’re just as destructive and just as immoral.

Stay strong, TFC. Except for the trolls, we're all here for you.
lh.... fo
time for LH to go back on ignore.... my only person on the list...
TFC... you can take my advice or follow LH's... two different schools of thought. He thinks he is right.... and he does offer you good advice frequently...I just disagree with his take on things. Judging from the responses that you had on your threads earlier on, I would imagine I am not alone in that thought.

MEDC
Evidently, some folks respond to criticism with "fo." I bet we all know what that means, don’t we? How very intellectual. I guess some folks can't defend their ideas; all they can do is swear at people with other opinions. That is so pitiful. Very sad.
LH - Did you get a chance to catch up on what's been going on the last 24 hours at my house? Do you think that I've pissed off some of the vets with my "attitude"?
I DID read your post on what WH is doing, TFC. I apologize. I let myself get sidetracked.


********

TFC, I can’t see your WH’s facial expressions or body language. All I have to go on are his words, but I actually think I see some hopeful signs in what you’ve relayed WH said and did over the past day.

Here’s why I hope the glass is half-full.

First, he's noticed a change in you and he likes what he sees. That's the effect Plan A is supposed to have on the WS. Further, he told you this while he’s at home with you instead of it coming from a distance while he’s “safe” out on the road. That’s a shift, in my mind, from the way he’s been acting.

Second, you didn’t say how you heard of his friend’s comment about you being cool. If he relayed that to you, it is quite intriguing and possibly a very positive, though slight shift in WH’s thinking. It was on his mind, TFC. Someone provided feedback to him about what he’s doing and how he’s treating you…and he’s retaining that feedback. In my mind, that’s very positive.


********

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"Wouldn't your life be easier without me?"

That remark can be a suggestion he’s setting you up and intends to bail out on the marriage. It may well be a threat and you reacted very appropriately to the threat of a separate bank account just yesterday.

However, this might not be what it appears to be on its face. Let me explain why.

It’s one of my observations of the species that when we are hurt, we revert to the child from which we’ve ostensibly grown. When a three-year-old is punished, they later need reinforcement of their parent’s continued love. They want to be held and cuddled, sitting on a parent’s lap. So it is with some people into their adulthood. They act out, then seek confirmation they are still held in high esteem.

To bring this back around to where I started, you can read a remark that seems to push you away as asking for validation you can forgive the acting out. “Wouldn’t your life be easier without me?” can also be, “I’m being an a$$. If I push you away, will you come back…will you be able to forgive me? Will you still love me?”

It could also be far more sinister. Look into his eyes, TFC, so you will know.


********

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"You don't see yourself as a victim here ... do you?"

He's still justifying his affair. It's all about revenge and he's stuck on that concept…or is he? Yeah, he probably IS to some extent. Heck, we human beings will defend our actions and our point of view to the last extremity…way past the point at which it would be in our best interests to admit another point of view.

That having been said, “You don’t see yourself as a victim…do you?” might have been an invitation to say you both were victims (two wrongs don’t make a right) but you could both could help heal each other…or something like that. It’s not quite reverse babble, but it could get someone thinking.

Actually, if he says it again, I’d bring out the point that it’s your daughter who is the victim in all this. You can tell him you did wrong, that he did wrong, and your baby girl is the one who’ll have to bear the brunt of it if her father and mother can’t find a way out of the downward spiral. In other words, don’t necessarily agree with his premise…turn it back on him and make him think.


********

Now, something has happened about the date night that I didn’t catch. Why were you waiting for a call from the sitter to tell her she wasn’t needed? I’m trying to read between the lines of what you wrote, but it seems to me he was still planning to take you somewhere. What happened here? Something happened behind the scenes?

You wrote that he (grumpily?) said you could come “if you wanted to.” TFC, please understand us guys sometimes don’t speak with all the eloquence we’d like to sometimes. If the glass is half full, he might have been asking you to reconsider, without actually saying the right words.

More about the date if you can explain a little more about what's happened.


********

Okay, let me see if I can bring all this together.

There are times when WH seems to be acting in accordance with a nasty little plan to push you into a corner where you have no option except to file for divorce. That is not unknown. It's happened before. He would be able to protest (to his friends) he did everything he could to save the marriage but you wouldn’t let him. It would justify in his mind everything he’s done and every hurtful word he’s said to you was your fault, not his.

Then he backs off. He comes to you in the evening and apologizes for an argument and actually (and calmly?) discusses how it could have been handled better. “Handle it better?” TFC, I see a a tacit admission in that. He's saying there IS a future for your relationship. After all, why bother handling something better if there is no tomorrow?

Okay. Now note these things happened the day after you countered his attempts to gaslight you…a day when you did a little reverse babble…a day you set a boundary and wouldn’t let him speak disrespectfully to you, right?

The day after you did this, he says he likes the changes he sees in you. Coincidence? Maybe. There are a lot of things he says and does for which we MB’ers aren’t seeing the full context…but it seems to me the glass might be half full just based on what we do see.

Another item. Orchid remarked, and you agreed, you are not in sync right at the moment. Your WH’s actions and words are stirring your emotions like a Mixmaster does cream pie filling. On one day, he seems hateful…the next he seems conciliatory after an argument.

Mixed signals indeed. They confuse and hurt because they’re not understood. But…mixed signals can be a sign he’s moving (slowly) off a position where he saw no hope of continuing the marriage, can’t they?

Okay, here’s where I’m going with all this. TFC, can you find it within yourself to be a little more patient and wait a while longer to see where things lead? There’s no guarantee, but success could be right around the corner, relatively speaking.

Hey, TFC, you’ve done a great Plan A. He’s noticed! He said so!

How about if you continue that stellar Plan A for a little while? However, you only do Plan A when he’s being a man instead of a petulant child. You continue to fight the gaslighting and his disrespectful words/actions by keeping your boundary against that firmly intact. Remember, he’s seen the changes and he likes them.

TFC, can you do something like a “180” by using that simple boundary to ward off the WH, while you connect with the husband who might be peeking out again? With a “180,” and with the application of your boundaries, when you retreat from him, he tries to get closer.

See how it works? You do, I admit, detach a little bit from WH if you do something like this, but I also think that’s a healthy thing to do at this point. Keep it under control, but no one will deny the WH is a hurtful alien and taking crap all the time is very enervating. Turning around and walking away from the spiteful words in a “180” might give you the strength to go on a little longer.

I don’t know if this is possible, TFC. As I said, I can’t see his face and I can’t watch his body language. Only you can do that. I can be seriously misinterpreting what’s going on…but if there’s a chance he’s making those first tentative gestures to come out of the fog, even though they appear to be mixed signals at this moment, do you think you could steel yourself to stay with this a while longer?

Is this a good moment to suggest you read Ark’s “Be Still” thread again?

I know this all seems contradictory. I fully understand you need to define your boundaries and set a time limit on how long you’re willing to put up with a lack of commitment to the marriage. I think you’ve seen already how effective a boundary can be, both in its effect on WH and your self-esteem. So, if there are signs he might be leaning back your way…?

Let me know what you think, TFC. If there are things I’m not seeing, let me know. We out here only see what you tell us about what WH says and does, and how you two interact. It’s easy sometimes to misinterpret something you say and I think I should be asking for clarification far more often than I do.

Hang in there, TFC. MB folks are here to support you and we’ll be there with you no matter what you decide to do.
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Just my 2 cents here TFC... when you stop feeling like a victim in this situation.... you will stop being a victim. Your H not believing the "hype" yet is normal... and he shouldn't until it is proven to him.
Your H should not have had an affair... not because it hurt you...but because it hurt him. You got bit by the very snake that you invited into your M... sad but true. But I doubt very highly that his friends would give a rats butt if they thought he had an affair of his own.
I still think that your wavering as to how to handle this and your lack of patience (last week you posted that you were going to plan B and then changed the post) is a detrement to you here. Remember that a FWS or WS is no bargain for a partner. There are easier roads out there for any BS to take than to deal with the baggage that an affair brings to a marriage.
Your H is testing you... in some ways you are doing well... but in my opinion, in the one area where you need to stand tall, you are falling short... patience. You get opinions here TFC... but find something off when he is getting opinions from those he trusts. And you say that opinions don't belong on your marriage (yet I suspect that would only include opinions that YOU don't agree with) and you end your post with ... an opinion from one of his friends.
Most likely you will continue to dismiss any criticism of your handling of things...and obviously that is your right...but I will again ask you as to why the majority of vets are ignoring your thread...is it because your situation is so perplexing that they can't help you... or is it something else...attitude.
Just my thoughts.

MEDC




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Others would strongly disagree with me on this... but I don't look at you as a BS... I know your H had an affair...but the only betrayals that I see are...

Your affair.
His betraying his own morals.

What I do see is a FWW that has been bitten by the very thing that she invited into her M. I liken it to having a fight... don't blame the other person for punching you in the nose after they have absorbed punches from you. In that case... even though you have a bloody nose, you are not the victim, but the instigator. Would it have been better for your H to turn the other cheek and not hit back.... yep... it would have allowed him to remain on the moral high ground. But how it impacts the person that brought this into the M in the first place, IMO, does not rise to the level of betrayal.



TFC... I do not see any attacks on you in these posts. Read them again... do you think there is value in what is being said??? Show me where the personal attacks are. In the second one, I gave you my opinion that I do not think your H's offense rises to the level of betrayal... is there an attack in offering that opinion??
In the first post... I give you my impression of how you come across....you may not agree with what I said but that does not mean you have been attacked... no matter what the enabler that has been posting to you has pointed out. I was here early on in your thread and saw firsthand the reaction of the long time vets here to both your situation and your attitude. If you want someone that is just going to pat you on the back and say good job... LH is the poster for you. I will let you know when I FEEL you have done a good job and when you have screwed up. If patience is not your strong suit does that mean you shouldn't be called to the carpet for your lack of it??? No.
I do think it is sad and a shame that your M is going through this right now. What I have tried to get you to focus on from the beginning... as the other vets did... is that your H is wounded and in need of patience and caring. No one will ever accuse me of being soft on a WS.... NEVER... but if you step too roughly with your H I would venture a guess that you will wind up pushing him further away. Like it or not... you are being tested by him.
You obviously want this to work... I suggest you do as your title suggests and be more open to any suggestions that might be helpful. At the end of the day, I really don't care if you take my advice or not. The punk that discredited my advice and then cried when I told him to fo thinks his way is the only way... I say... as I have said a million times on this board... we are a choir and all have a role....keep your eye on the lyrics and the melody will come to you....
I would venture a guess though that since I do not often suggest patience with a situation, that when I see the need for it, you might want to at the very least consider that to be sound advice.
If you would like me to bow out of your thread, just say so. I invest my time and energy here and can do so elsewhere if my views are not wanted.

MEDC
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TFC... I do not see any attacks on you in these posts. Read them again... do you think there is value in what is being said??? Show me where the personal attacks are.

I didn't realize that I accused you of attacking me following those posts.

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I was here early on in your thread and saw firsthand the reaction of the long time vets here to both your situation and your attitude.

I feel that I have changed a lot since I first came here. When I write, I tend to be matter-of-fact. I know that it can sometimes come across as cold, but I am really not at all a cold, heartless, attitudinal b*tch.

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If patience is not your strong suit does that mean you shouldn't be called to the carpet for your lack of it??? No.

I recognize that patience isn't an area where I am well-adept. I feel that I am displaying as much patience as I can and am trying to push myself to be more patient. I just don't think I need to constantly be berated for not being as patient as you would like to see me be. I am really trying my best here ... we all do what we can with what we have.

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You obviously want this to work... I suggest you do as your title suggests and be more open to any suggestions that might be helpful.

I am very open to all suggestions. I am even open to your suggestions, MEDC. But some people do better with a more gentle approach. Believe it or not, I am a very sensitive person and I frequently find your posts to me to be abrasive.
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I just don't think I need to constantly be berated for not being as patient as you would like to see me be


I do not berate you for your lack of patience...unless calling you on it is considered berating to you. As far as what I would like... I have nothing invested in you... I would not like for you to be anyway in particular...I guess that is the point... I want to give you the advice that I consider to give your M the best chance at survival.

As far as finding me abrasive... I can be...but I find you to be the same way. Perhaps neither one of us comes across as intended... but since I am not the one in the relationship quandry at this time, perhaps you should look beyond the perceived abrasiveness to see the message in the post. If I didn't want you to succeed, I wouldn't waste my time posting to you. Contrary to what little LH has said, my time is valuable and I do not waste it attacking others for my own edification.
And if you read my posts again... in quite a few of them, I have complimented you on your changes....I call it as I see it from all angles TFC.... good or bad. That to me would be a lot more valuable than someone feeding me what I want to hear.
Keep up the good work and fight your urges to be less than patient.

MEDC
LH - I am seeing some positive signs here as well. I want to address several things from your post:

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Second, you didn’t say how you heard of his friend’s comment about you being cool. If he relayed that to you...

He is the one who told me this. I had just gotten home from work and he was on the phone with this friend. Then, at dinner he told me this.

****
The "wouldn't your life be easier without me" comment was made over the phone so I couldn't see what expressions were associated with it. But I can say that I think it is something that was said to gauge my reaction. My reaction was: "Maybe, maybe not. But that's not what I want so I've never really contemplated it."

****
I like your suggestions about the victim comment. I suppose I should have noted my reaction to the question. When he asked if I felt like a victim, I replied "No, I don't. I take responsibility for what I've done. I don't like what you did, but I'm not a 'victim'. I prefer not to play the martyr card." He just smiled. Maybe I passed that test?

****
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Now, something has happened about the date night that I didn’t catch. Why were you waiting for a call from the sitter to tell her she wasn’t needed? I’m trying to read between the lines of what you wrote, but it seems to me he was still planning to take you somewhere. What happened here? Something happened behind the scenes?

Well, first let me clarify that it wasn't really a "date" - I suppose I didn't make that clear. It was something work-related that he invited me to. I've tried to be vague when it comes to job-related stuff for him - if I'm specific, it would pretty much give away our identity.

Now, the sitter was my sister - she was kind of "on call" for tonight ... knowing that there was a possibility that I may not be going.

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You wrote that he (grumpily?) said you could come “if you wanted to.” TFC, please understand us guys sometimes don’t speak with all the eloquence we’d like to sometimes. If the glass is half full, he might have been asking you to reconsider, without actually saying the right words.

I could tell that he didn't want me there. He even said "I didn't think anyone we knew would be there" when I asked why the invitation had been taken back. He doesn't want to take me out in public still.

Btw - later on, he at least acknowledged that it was hurtful to invite me and then withdraw the invitation. But he never apologized for it.

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He's saying there IS a future for your relationship. After all, why bother handling something better if there is no tomorrow?

I thought so too. When we were talking last night, we talked about how "next time" we could each handle the situation more to the other's liking. It was a positive discussion. Then today, he reminded me that I am to be trying to earn back his love (it was NOT an accusation that I didn't seem to be trying) - I noted that I would continue to try to make this M work for as long as we live.

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Last night, he tried another gaslighting comment and I ignored him. He said that he thought I would be nicer to him. I said, "I am being nice. I'm just not going to listen to you turn everything back around on me." Later he said, "You know, I think you're the only person that ever says 'no' to me!" I laughed and said that yes, I probably am. He laughed too and said "seriously, I think you are!" I just laughed again and said "I guess I just keep you grounded." He agreed and commented on how pompous he'd be without me keeping his feet on the ground. LOL

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How about if you continue that stellar Plan A for a little while? However, you only do Plan A when he’s being a man instead of a petulant child. You continue to fight the gaslighting and his disrespectful words/actions by keeping your boundary against that firmly intact. Remember, he’s seen the changes and he likes them.

TFC, can you do something like a “180” by using that simple boundary to ward off the WH, while you connect with the husband who might be peeking out again? With a “180,” and with the application of your boundaries, when you retreat from him, he tries to get closer.

I thought about this too. I think I've been sorta working my way up to this. Kind of like Orchid's "Plan A the H, Plan B the WH" idea. I'll do my own little version of this: as you suggested to Plan A my H, 180 the WH.

He goes out of town again tomorrow, so I guess we'll see how things go.

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As always, LH, I appreciate your attention to detail and your dedication to helping me sort through all this mess! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Great. I’m glad you’ve begun seeing positive signs. Perhaps your husband is beginning to peek out from inside the alien that abducted him. You made a good response to his “victim” question and if it comes up again, you can expound on it.

Okay, the date thing was a downer. I don’t know what to make of him withdrawing the invitation. However, notice he did feel guilty about it, whether he apologized or not.

I don’t think he’s ready for remorse or apologies yet. I’m sorry he’s going out of town again tomorrow. If he weren’t, it would be good opportunity for you to initiate a night out, “because you two couldn’t get all the logistical things worked out for tonight’s thing,” you could say. Maybe?

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he reminded me that I am to be trying to earn back his love

Your response was excellent. I think many a person having that thrown at them would have reacted badly, whether it came out as an accusation or not.

I think you’ve recounted enough incidents to suggest he might be checking to see how much damage has been done and how dedicated you are to reconciliation. I think I’m going to stay with the “glass half-full” idea. What do you think?

Hold on to that policy of refusing to accept gaslighting and disrespect. For one thing, your self-respect demands you take up for yourself. Besides, it seems to be working with him. It fits right in with Pepperband’s “Carrot and Stick of Plan A” you know. A doormat spouse is very unattractive and leads to contempt.

I’m glad you were working independently on Orchid’s suggestion. It struck me also as a very smart thing to do, and one that could keep you going a little while longer. I think you can hold your head up proudly in such a plan, and the stings won't hurt so much. Orchid is a very smart lady and her advice is always a valuable thing to receive.

Recoveries from what has happened to your husband and you in your marriage are excruciatingly slow. Progress comes in fits and starts...weeks of improvement and some periods when it seems all the gains have been wiped out. Sometimes it’s a case of “two steps forward and three steps back.” But it isn’t really. Every advance leaves an echo in both your minds and it’s easier to retrace that step, to recover the gain, some time in the future than it was the first time.

Baby steps, TFC, baby steps. Your marriage didn’t get into this shape overnight and it won’t be fixed that quickly either. Understand he isn’t ready yet to commit...but he’s talking easier and interacting better. That's progress, however slight.

If you can put aside your very human desire for more commitment and remorse from him for a while longer, there may be big rewards on down the line. Cherish the positive moments, and try to keep his backsliding in context while you keep moving forward. 180 the WH, Plan A the husband. Sounds like a plan to me.

Baby steps, okay?
A couple of other things I wanted to let you know:

1. The other day, while out with his mom (the therapist) - she explained to him that I couldn't have had an A without already feeling bad about myself.
*I think this is important to note because of my decision not to accept gaslighting. This shows that I am working on my self-respect and self-esteem.

2. I am trying to keep my expectations a bit lower with regards to apologies, commitment, and valiant efforts at working on the M.
*This will allow a longer Plan A the H - 180 the WH to take place I believe.

3. This morning, before heading out of town, he said he would miss me. It didn't come out fluidly, but he said it just the same. Then, I got a kiss on the cheek before he left and a big hug! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
*I know he tends to be kinder right before going out of town, but I see this (paired with our other discussions this week) as a positive sign.

4. He has requested less travel in July and August to allow for more family time. I thought this was a very positive thing!


I'm not going to keep my hopes super-high because of a couple of good days, but I see some good signs here too.

So, yes, let's keep the glass "half full" for now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Excellent. Things seem to be on the upswing now, but we human beings live on emotion. There WILL be low days ahead and the trick will be to keep them in context with the good times.

You've protected your finances and I think you have a good interim plan. If this turns out to be as effective in the long term as it has for the past few days, there may be no need for anything more. I don't know how long it's been since he projected something two and three months down the line, but I gather it's been a while. That's very positive.

If the positive indications continue, there'll be no need for an overall strategy that includes a Plan B, will there? However, the essence of planning is to have something in reserve and ready for application, just in case. My point is, and I won't belabor it, you still need to set up your strategy based on what you know now, okay?
Can anyone help me with an outline of what I need to consider when creating my strategy?
Things are moving slowly on the board this afternoon and evening huh? I'll take a shot at this and let others fill in with their ideas later on.

I don't know of a thread out here that talks about an outline of a strategy, per se. We all take our cue from SAA and determine guidelines based on doing a Plan A for "X" amount of time...then do a reality check...Plan B for “Y” amount of time...another check...Plan D, if the worst case scenario plays out.

In your case, TFC, I think a good program for you would be similar to the above. It’s complicated by the fact you’re pretty sure WH has established NC but he hasn't moved forward from that point. But, I don’t think it’s complicated beyond the point where you aren’t able to apply most of Dr. Harley’s principles.

Figuring out what to do if WH does this, if he does that, if he fails to do something...and so on...is a pretty smart thing to do. For instance, here are three options off the top of my head about Plan A. Your plan can say you’re going to do your modified Plan A for:

1. As long as you can stand the stress
2. Or until (insert date)
3. Or until it’s clear the point of diminishing returns has been reached.

You should be thinking of how you can steel yourself to ensure you don’t end Plan A prematurely. When you think about “as long as you can stand the stress,” you have to take into account the fact you’re getting very few deposits to your Love Bank. You can explore in your mind what signals your (subconscious mind?) will give you when that point is reached. How will you feel? How will you know when your LB is getting dangerously low?

On the other hand, if you select a firm date, as one should do with a Plan A in a normal situation, the date should be considered very carefully. There should be clearly identifiable reasons for selecting the date.

If you commit to carefully analyzing the status of reconciliation to identify a point of diminishing returns, you’ll be observing the highs and low points blending into each other over a period of time, reserving a decision for a time when you detect a downward trend that isn’t going to be recoverable. I think this would take a little detached observer analysis.

Okay, those are just examples.

Beyond getting a fair idea of what you want to do for the foreseeable future, I think a good strategy would include considering how you’ll react to unforeseen crises.

For example...and only for the purposes of illustrating what I mean…you could do some preliminary reflection about what to do if you find out about an OW #2. The questions you could ask yourself would be something like, “Would you be willing to go back to square one and start all over?” If so, for how long? Etc., etc. I’m sure you can think of some other crisis situations and getting even a hazy idea of what you should do if any of them occur will give you a head start.

Of course, those crisis points need not be as devastating as all that. They need not be negative at all. Actually, one of the “crisis points” you consider should also be what you would do if WH suddenly has an epiphany and wants to begin working hard on the marriage. It’s here that your boundaries come into focus and you’ll need to have them clear in your mind. (Were I you, one of those I’d insist on would be a commitment to MC so you and he can both heal from the transgressions in your marriage. He doesn’t have to be enthusiastic about it, per se, but he needs to commit to working with the MC and you instead of being a bump on a log in the sessions.) Please always remember to get POJA on as many things as you can.

Pressing on with the strategy, I don’t think you can continue even a modified Plan A indefinitely. Actually, trying to do that will be self-defeating in the long run. Your nerves were pretty frayed last week and it can happen again.

In fact, as I read your posts these past few days, I was struck by the fact that since you’ve done a darn good Plan A, a Plan B is going to have a maximized effect on WH. I know you look on Plan B as an ending, but it is actually a very powerful tool in your hands to bring your husband out of hiding from within the WH. You’ve shown him how really cool you are, handling all of this, a job and a child too. His friends are noticing too. If you go dark with those images in his mind, there’s going to be a big, dark hole in his life and he’s going to want to fill it back up with that cool lady and her daughter.

I think you should have a contingency plan for Plan B, TFC. How would you break it to him? How would you pass your daughter to him for visitation? Is it necessary to file for legal separation? Etc., etc. Consider these things now, while you’re not angry or upset and you’ll be able to react that much better if and when the time comes.

I sincerely hope don’t have to implement a Plan B, TFC, but you need to fix it in your mind it may be necessary because the current state of your marriage cannot continue indefinitely. You would wind up hating him bitterly and it would affect your daughter too.

So...does this give you a place to start?
Yes, thank you.

I sure hope others will give their notes on strategizing as well ...
Just a little update:

He called today from the road ... we talked for an hour and a half! It was great! He's being very husbandly (is that a word?) in every way. We've now had several conversations on how we can communicate better. He's been calling to let me know where he is staying, etc. I'm thinking of a total career change and he's been more involved and supportive than ever before. He also suggested that we go play tennis together when he gets back in town - this was on my EN questionnaire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Things are on the upswing!

P.S. I'm still working on that strategy ...
Sounds great.

Confucius say if you're prepared for the next time the road unexpectedly gets bumpy, it won't be nearly as bad as a surprise bump.

LH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
P.S. Notice bulletproof_m's thread on boundaries?
Just read it ... thanks!
Here's what I think I'm going to do:

Keep my modified Plan A in place as long as I can handle it AND (I mentioned before what I needed in a M - most of these items are being met as of now, with the exception of MC) as long as my boundaries are met, I will stay in it. As soon as one of those things is broken, I will reconsider if I can stay in my Plan A any longer or if I need to move into Plan B or full 180.
Sounds good. Considering the above, along with your list of expectations you posted a few days ago, I think you've set yourself up for success. There aren’t any guarantees, but I think the outcome is increasingly more favorable. When you say you'll reconsider when things seem adverse, that tells me you've built enough flexibility into your mindset to make it past the bumps in the road ahead. Good work.
Btw - he told me tonight (on his own accord) which hotel he was staying at and when he planned on calling next. Unfortunately, he may not be able to call again tonight. But he's been so great this trip I just can't believe it! I am trying sooooooo hard not to get my hopes up too high, but I must admit that I am really enjoying this!

AND, yes, I do think I've finally set myself up for success by finally having a real strategy!
Heck, enjoy the progress. There's nothing wrong with enjoying this. But...protect yourself against the emotional downer when he fails. In other words, TFC, be ready to accept the temporary backsliding philosophically, okay? There's that old roller coaster thing going and it's not going to even out for some time.

That he's working toward total transparance is very encouraging. He's not labeling it as such, but that's okay.

All in all...seems to me you'll be able to look back on all this from the vantage point of several months and see the lows were interludes between longer periods of (slow) progress.

Keep up the good work, lady.
Thanks, LH.

I have to say that I was rather impressed by my H yesterday. We were talking about something and it was apparently a trigger for him - though he brought up the conversation. He calmly said "Ugh! I just got [XOM] flashes. I hate that." I told him how sorry I was that he had to experience those, that it pains me that I did something that would bring ugly thoughts to his mind. He took a deep breath and just said it was ok and went back to talking. I felt so good that he was honest about having those feelings. I know that because I handled it calmly that he will feel like he can come to me with those feelings again.

He definitely remembered all the things on my EN questionnaire and I feel great! So how come there is a nagging feeling that something still isn't quite right?
Last night he got a little distant with me ... I'm hoping it won't spill over into today.

I am feeling overwhelmed by all that is going on in my life right now. Say a prayer for my sanity today, please.
Take some deep breaths, hug your daughter and roll with the punches, TFC. A couple of strong positive steps and a small step back only mean the trend is still upward. Give your sister and your friends a call just to chat, plan what you're going to review with your IC this week...anything to keep your balance, okay?
The vacation that he was going to take DD on alone has now become a FAMILY vacation!

Today he noted that other people get so much of his time, and he understands that must be difficult for me. He asked if I could try to understand that I get a part of him that no one else does and try to see if I could be in a M with someone with his career.

We are making strides here ...
There are indeed very good signs. He's either initiating relationship talk, or participating in such discussions in a rational manner, and that's a good thing.

Could it be those phone calls to XOM early last week were your husband telling XOM to get lost, as it were?
That is what I'm hoping ... he never mentioned them. The only thing he said was that he distances when XOM calls him, and he knows he shouldn't. But he never said a word about his call to XOM. I told him that I really hoped he would consider telling XOM to cease contact immediately and he just smiled. Maybe he already had and was glad I stood firm? It doesn't matter why, I'm just glad I haven't seen any further contact.

And he's really displayed patience with me as well as indicating that he's wanting to work on the R.
That he triggers (and gets a little distant with you) when XOM calls isn't surprising. It's human nature.

Stay with your plan, TFC, roll with the punches, and I think you'll realize great rewards a few months down the line.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Making a respectful request? - 05/22/07 03:42 PM
Remember the gal H had the inappropriate IM with? She lives in the state he's visiting - they are sort of still friends. I've explained to him that it appears as though her interests are beyond just a friendship. He has agreed not to discuss our M with her, or anything too personal. I thought I could be "cool" about them seeing each other while he was there, but then they hung out the other night. Ever since, I've been going nuts. Honestly, I don't want them to be friends anymore. As far as I'm concerned she was never just interested in a friendship with my H, and the friendship that they had was inappropriate. Can I respectfully request that they no longer hang out? Is this even appropriate?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Making a respectful request? - 05/22/07 04:38 PM
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I expect all personal contact with females to cease immediately.

TFC, you made the above one of your boundaries and then apparently agreed with him it would be okay to associate with her so long as he didn't discuss your marriage? You're sending him mixed signals and confusing the issue.

Look, it's as inappropriate for him to "hang out" with members of the opposite sex out on the road as it is for you to hang out with guys when he's not around. Members of the opposite sex are only friends when they're friends of the marriage. When he gets home, I would POJA this calmly and carefully, explaining how it hurts you for him to even be associating with that other woman in a social context.

But put this backsliding in context with the progress made over the past week. Don't let the low points in the roller coaster ride affect you so much because it appears they'll be offset by high points...and the trend is still upward. The glass is still half full, TFC.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Making a respectful request? - 05/22/07 05:10 PM
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You're sending him mixed signals and confusing the issue.

I sort of am ... that list was not given or discussed with him ever. But I should have known myself better than that - I should have known that I would never be ok with them hanging out.

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Don't let the low points in the roller coaster ride affect you so much because it appears they'll be offset by high points...and the trend is still upward. The glass is still half full, TFC.

Half full indeed! I am grateful for the progress we've made - I just wanted to be sure that we continued this progress while also being completely honest with him about my feelings. I just want to be sure I approach this subject gently ...

Not sure how to bring it up, but I feel like I need to say something about it. Any woman who's tried to bed my H is NOT a friend of the M (just as any man behaving/talking with me in that manner is not welcome as a friend either).
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Making a respectful request? - 05/22/07 07:22 PM
Hmmmmm...a little bit of 2X4 time, TFC! Brace yourself.

I don’t think that you haven’t brought up your boundaries with him yet is germane to the question of why you aren’t enforcing them, TFC. You knew about the boundary when you were presented with the issue of him being around that “friend." When he brought it up, you had the opportunity to broach the subject of inappropriate friends in a calm non-accusatory discussion. If he disclosed the fact he would be interacting with her, he was effectively asking you whether it would be all right or not and he didn’t get the response you had a great opening to present.

Lady, please watch for opportunities that come at you out of the blue to bring commonsense boundaries up...for both of you. There’s no requirement to lay all the boundaries out on a table in front of him all at one time. Actually, that’s probably counterproductive. POJA him. Heck, you might even be proactive. Ask him what boundaries he thinks he will need in place. You’ll need to phrase it differently, of course, unless he’s read SAA.

Okay, nothing’s been lost except for a few days worth of time that is meaningless when viewed in context. The neat thing about human emotional interaction is the trolley always comes around again. There are always second chances.

How about bringing this subject up in another conversation, saying you fooled yourself when the subject came up before, but you’ve had a lot of time to think about it and you’ve realized it’s not a good thing for either one of you to have a friend who isn’t a friend of the marriage. Pick your time, place, and atmosphere and try to get a POJA with him. Use the example you used in your last post if you want to.

Better yet, if you have an example of a male friend in your life (past or present...based on an actual event or a potential one) who you might should drop (or have already dropped) for the same reason, make that a part of the discussion. (Or use the example of a girlfriend/sister/coworker/whoever whose experience would contribute to what you're trying to get across. Heck, ask your IC for an example.) Something like that would be a very powerful anecdote he could not help but understand.

Homework assignment <grin>: Read or re-read Not "Just Friends" by Shirley P. Glass, Ph.D. That book is a lengthy discussion of inappropriate friends.

Half full observation: Evidently, he's being very open -- tending toward transparency -- because you apparently knew beforehand he would be seeing/talking to her.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Making a respectful request? - 05/22/07 07:42 PM
I know ... I should have enforced my boundaries. I was just telling my best friend last night how I've been so bad in the past with just pushing my boundary line back further and further each time he approaches it and how I have to stop doing that. Then what did I do? Ugh! So disappointed in myself!

I will re-read "Not Just Friends" - matter of fact, I'll begin tonight.



Edited to note that I have also pushed my boundaries back for myself - otherwise I couldn't have had an affair. Which is why it is so important that I learn to stick to my boundaries.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Making a respectful request? - 05/22/07 08:24 PM
TFC, we all like to think we're so not the children we once were. We see a three-year-old pushing disciplinary boundaries with his or her parents and we nod knowingly. That's what children do, we say.

To me, the problem is adults do the same things a three-year-old does every chance we get. We are a competitive species and most of us take every occasion we have to test boundaries, and often for the same reason a three-year-old does...we want to see if the boundary is still there. If it is, the three-year-old inside all of us is reassured and we back off...until the next time.

Lady, if you don’t enforce the boundaries with a three-year-old, the toddler’s development ultimately suffers, right? The result of keeping a particular boundary in place might be the child never develops a sense of self-discipline that leads to a good work ethic that leads to a productive job that leads to a great career that leads to...etc., etc. If you don’t reinforce boundaries in a relationship, it can lead in a few short steps to a marriage that is a relationship in name only.

Don’t get the wrong idea. Correcting that three-year-old can be done lovingly and very gently...and I’m not suggesting keeping boundaries in a marriage means a nuclear attack at every transgression, an unrelenting baleful vigilance, or anything else down that road, okay?

Excellent! Your edited note is a very crucial thing to know about yourself. I don’t know what your friend told you, but I believe you should get feedback from your IC about this also. You can’t afford to be the three-year-old pushing the boundaries to see if they’re still there, right?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Independent decision-making? - 05/23/07 02:58 PM
H just informed me that he may be traveling across the globe for a work "opportunity". While I'm excited for him, shouldn't something like this be discussed before its decided on? Though its not yet definite, he's already made up his mind ... all on his own.

I don't think this is a huge step back or anything, but it upsets me. Oh well.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Independent decision-making? - 05/23/07 03:41 PM
You already know the answer to that question, TFC, and you know which of your boundaries his announcement violates. We talked about opportunities yesterday, right? So...what’s the best thing you can do today for the marriage and your family? How will you go about accomplishing that?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Independent decision-making? - 05/23/07 04:00 PM
Yup ... "I won’t accept independent behaviors."

So, the only thing I can do for me and DD is to calmly let him know that I would appreciate a discussion about things of this nature prior to decision-making. Looks like I might be introducing H & POJA today.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Independent decision-making? - 05/23/07 04:39 PM
I think that's appropriate. Calm and gentle is an excellent way to set up a discussion. Personally, I worry about the effect the more extended absences will have on your daughter.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Independent decision-making? - 05/23/07 06:21 PM
Me too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But I don't think I can do anything about it ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Backsliding ... - 05/23/07 10:50 PM
Today was a day of steps backward ... first the trip, then some stuff about business, now he's decided to work on Monday. He says he committed to that first, but that doesn't make me feel any better. He will have been gone almost 2 weeks and we were having my parents watch DD so we could do something fun together then having a family night. Now, looks like we're just having a family night. I am just sick of our alone-time getting put on the backburner to everything else. I am just so sad. But, I guess this just toughens me up ... or breaks me down - not sure which yet.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 12:25 AM
It's the roller coaster you see referenced on other threads, TFC. It's going to last for a while, so try not to let it hurt so badly. This too shall pass, as they say.

Stay strong.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 12:33 AM
One of the things that was important to me in our M was spending quality time alone together. So it hurts that he is choosing to work during that time instead. I decided to tell him this, but also asked if he would prefer that I cancel having my parents watch DD.

He told me that he felt I was "baiting" him by asking about canceling babysitting. He said that I needed to learn that he wouldn't baby me through all this. That I needed to stand up for what I wanted ...

So, I told him "Well, I'm standing up for what I want. And I want us to have time alone together on Monday." He said that he would finish up by early afternoon so that we could keep our plans ...

I'm so glad I decided to confront the issue head-on instead of standing back and assuming our plans would be canceled.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 02:32 AM
Cool. I see several things here.

See if you can get confirmation on this from your IC, but I think you did two important things here, and you got an important clue about communication with your husband.

First, you confronted the issue directly instead of letting it fester in your mind and spoiling your outlook on every day between now and Monday. It probably would have poisoned every interaction with your husband in that time frame, and there’s the potential it would also have influenced interactions between you and your daughter.

It’s much better to have the issue out in the open and settled one way or the other. Internalizing emotional issues almost always leads to unwanted, and usually some unnecessary pain. I think this is a good lesson you can benefit from, and one you should keep at the front of your mind from here on out. Don't suppress "stuff," okay? (At the same time, don't get confrontational when it's not necessary, right?)

Second, I think there’s a very good chance you standing up for what you wanted reinforced an idea in your husband’s mind that you care enough to want to spend time with him. Indirectly, I think that’s very important in helping him heal from your affair…which he still hasn’t done. Like that three-year-old we talked about, he’ll come back to touch the injury again and again, testing to see if your love is still there.

Finally, you spelled things out for him in very clear language and he didn’t have to interpret what you were trying to say. I don’t know if you never understood his desire for straight talk before or whether you’ve just gotten away from it, but most men are like your husband. We’uns don’t like having to ask if she meant this…no, no…she probably meant that…well, maybe…etc., etc. We get confused, TFC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Don’t be circumspect because you only make us guys wonder where you’re coming from, okay?

A final note. How’s the issue of couples counseling or IC for husband coming? I think you two could make very fast progress if you had a couples counselor working with you and acting as a facilitator in conversations between you two. I think a few sessions with SH would be great. I have in mind the fact that your husband seemed to “get closer” to you a couple weeks ago on the phone (with the detachment from strong emotions the separation gives one). He might open up in a phone session more easily than he would be able to do with even the most non-judgmental counselor in person. Whatcha think?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 02:56 AM
You should probably be a therapist LH! LOL You are dead-on here, I believe.

I was just talking to my best friend about this ...
She has been my best friend since we were 14 years old! She told me how proud she was that I stood up for what I wanted for once. She said to me: "TFC - I've been wondering where you've been! You've been replaced by a doormat since you got married and I've wondered quietly all this time what happened to the best friend I had that always stood up for what she wanted and believed in! See - if you had just told your H what you wanted in your M all along, maybe you wouldn't have ever had your stupid A!" (She's very blunt!)

H said yesterday that he was planning on finding an IC when he gets back in town. And we did do that one session with SH and he actually enjoyed it! H tends to shy away from that sort of thing since his mom is a therapist. I think we will be able to get in MC with SH soon ... I'm not going to push the subject, but I will bring it up when the timing feels right!

I was so glad that we were able to compromise ... he gets to work for a bit, and I still get my date! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 03:19 AM
I think you should listen very closely to your best friend, and seek out her advice whenever you can. Ask her if you can lean on her for a bit while you get your feet under you. I'd pay attention to what she says when she's in that blunt mode. Ask her to remind you of today's events if and when she sees a need to, okay?

I think that your husband says he's going to find an IC is another excellent sign of progress. To me, baby steps are just fine in all this.

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 03:20 PM
Baby steps are just fine by me - progress is progress!

I started thinking on all this a bit more last night. Who was I when my H fell in love with me?

I was a woman who was strong, independent, didn't take crap from anyone, and didn't care what anyone thought. I was fun and crazy, yet responsible. I was silly and still sexy. I was everything that I am not.

I have become this boring, needy, uptight b*itch over the last 5 years. I suppose that once DD was born, I thought I had to be old - not just grow up. I took on all the chores and things, allowing my H to have minimal responsibility and maximal fun. I made myself this way! Its my fault and no one else's!

I changed who I was to suit what I thought was the perfect wife and mom. But, in reality, all it did was hurt all of us because I wasn't happy being someone else and having all the responsibility with none of the fun. Instead of talking to my H about it, I held it in thinking that he would be so disappointed if he found out that I didn't like who I'd become - who I'd made myself into. I thought that was what he wanted.

But after I thought about this last night, I realized that he's been short-changed in a big way! Not only did I quit being the fun, carefree, crazy woman he married, but I had an A too! He seriously got the short-end of the stick!

So, I need to find out why I gave up who I was ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 05:18 PM
Yes, but it's not only why you gave up yourself...you can work on moving back to being strong, independent, and reliable by keeping the goal fixed in your mind.

Please note you already are working toward that goal. Being more independent and strong dovetails quite nicely with your “kinda/sorta” Plan A/180 plan, your refusal to accept gaslighting, and the boundaries you developed for yourself before you achieved yesterday’s insight. Your husband's frustration with you not speaking plainly, and his desire for you to stand up for yourself, were the catalysts you needed to bring all this to the forefront.

I think you'll find recovering yourself easier than you suspect because you’ve actually been working on it for a while without realizing it. Additionally, there have been times on this thread when I saw a lot of quiet strength in your words, but that strong-minded, dedicated woman I saw has disappeared from time to time. Don’t let yourself backslide into neediness (perhaps even codependency?) and “bitchiness” now that you’ve identified what you’ve disliked about yourself, okay?

Frankly, based on what she told you last night, a good source of information and valuable discussion into how/why you gave yourself up is that best friend of yours. Also, you can take your conversations with her to your IC to help you explore how you got to the point where you had an affair and how to better understand yourself in general.

It strikes me that next session with SH is going to be jam-packed, isn’t it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep up the good work, TFC.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 08:31 PM
I don't feel like I can talk to my H about anything serious. Every time I try to have a conversation about something with regards to responsibility (i.e. childcare, money, etc.) "its not a good time". And its NEVER a good time! I am stuck with all the responsibility ... so there he is with the benefits of a M and none of the responsibility. And I get soooooooooooooo frustrated! So there it is ... and I can't change it because I can't change him. So how do I approach this subject? I've told him a million times in a million different ways, and nothing seems to work. So what else can I try?

Don't get me wrong ... I'm not blaming him for anything based on this post. I am upset that I don't feel that I can ever approach him.
Posted By: holymoly Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 08:36 PM
Quote
Baby steps are just fine by me - progress is progress!

I started thinking on all this a bit more last night. Who was I when my H fell in love with me?

I was a woman who was strong, independent, didn't take crap from anyone, and didn't care what anyone thought. I was fun and crazy, yet responsible. I was silly and still sexy. I was everything that I am not.

I have become this boring, needy, uptight b*itch over the last 5 years. I suppose that once DD was born, I thought I had to be old - not just grow up. I took on all the chores and things, allowing my H to have minimal responsibility and maximal fun. I made myself this way! Its my fault and no one else's!

I changed who I was to suit what I thought was the perfect wife and mom. But, in reality, all it did was hurt all of us because I wasn't happy being someone else and having all the responsibility with none of the fun. Instead of talking to my H about it, I held it in thinking that he would be so disappointed if he found out that I didn't like who I'd become - who I'd made myself into. I thought that was what he wanted.

But after I thought about this last night, I realized that he's been short-changed in a big way! Not only did I quit being the fun, carefree, crazy woman he married, but I had an A too! He seriously got the short-end of the stick!

So, I need to find out why I gave up who I was ...


THAT WAS A GREAT POST!!!! That is exactly how I feel.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 09:55 PM
You have a feeling you can't approach him? Now wait a minute, TFC. You learned just yesterday he prefers straight talk and he appreciates you standing up for yourself. Did everything your best friend said to you last night fall on deaf ears? Exactly why do you think this problem isn’t at least partially solvable using what you learned yesterday?

How about...the short answer is to make an "appointment" with him...and hold him to it. How would you set yourself up for success in something like that?

Let your frustration flow away, TFC. Consider this for a while. It’s been something that’s been a factor in your marriage for a long time now. A couple days of calm thought and planning aren’t going to be at all significant in the long term.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 11:33 PM
Very true, LH! I vented about it here ... and then I did something about it. I told him after another cut-off attempt that I don't ever feel like I can talk to him about anything important and that it bothers me that there never seems to be a good time. I asked what we could do about this ... He got upset, said he wasn't listening to it, and hung up on me. I sent him a text saying that he just proved my point (probably a LB). He called back a bit later and said he was sorry - that he realizes that when he's on the road he often forgets about all the responsibilities at home and doesn't want to stress about them.

So, even though we had a tiff, we were able to communicate in the end. And hopefully we can each improve from this.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/24/07 11:47 PM
That's good progress for both of you. A baby step that'll have to be reinforced when he gets home but it's good to see. Maybe face to face discussions are better for highly emotional issues anyway. Whatcha think?

That you talked to him about it is also good progress for you. This is another night you won't have to go to bed with something festering inside you, right? Maybe a LB, but it was a minor one. Pick yourself up and get back in the game.

He's trying, TFC. I see lots of signs of that in your words. Most recently, you've told us he gets angry, but it's a transitory thing now rather than a lifestyle. The transitory nature of his anger was a part of yesterday's interaction as well as today's. To me, that glass is getting more than half full.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/25/07 12:01 AM
Most of the issues (like childcare, bills, etc.) shouldn't be highly emotional and should be discussed on a regular basis. Its hard to talk about them face to face when he's only home about 5 days a month.

I don't want to make the decisions alone, because I feel that we are partners in running this household. I often think he just wants me to make all the decisions. This is a discussion to have face to face.

More than half-full? I like the sound of that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/25/07 12:18 AM
Quote
Its hard to talk about them face to face when he's only home about 5 days a month.

Understood! Hmmmmm…TFC, I don't know anything about how things are organized when he is home, but perhaps you could bring up some of these issues after a little advance planning? Maybe (after he's had his second cup of coffee) something like, "Hey, I need you to help me with something, honey," and go from there?

How does your friend bring up such things in her relationship?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/25/07 12:32 AM
We still don't have much time together when he is home, but we can certainly try to begin scheduling time for family business. My friend's BF is always around, but they have set times to talk (as they have similar schedules). So, it seems that scheduling that time is the best way to handle this.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/25/07 12:42 AM
Could be...but why don't you get more feedback before you settle on something? For instance, what do your other friends do with such issues? What do other spouses of people in your husband's line of work do? What would your MIL suggest if she were asked? She knows your husband pretty good, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding ... - 05/25/07 02:00 AM
Unfortunately, most people that we know in his profession aren't married. Those that are, we don't know that well - they travel so much! But my best friend and MIL will have some good suggestions I'm sure. And maybe H & I could POJA this!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding ... - 05/25/07 02:19 AM
Absolutely! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 11:26 AM
I had a nervous night last night. H was in a new city that is also a vacation spot. I found out last night too that OW was going to be there too. But I went to sleep trying to tell myself that maybe he didn't know she was there - coincidence. Well, OW texted my H last night ... no response shows on the phone records yet, and how do I know it wasn't to let him know she almost to his hotel. Anyway. I need to calm down before he calls me today - maybe he'll tell me himself.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 04:41 PM
He told me.

LH, read about it HERE .
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 04:48 PM
Good news in that he's being transparant with you. Are there substantive reasons why he won't get another cell phone number?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 04:50 PM
He uses it for business ... he mentioned before that he may consider getting a new number. I think now is a really good time to do that. I just don't know how to bring this up.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 05:20 PM
I understand his reason. Changing a business phone is always "iffy," but it can be done if there is a lot of good preparation.

You bring it up the same way you brought up things in the past couple of days, avoiding accusations and being upfront with why you're concerned. I’d do it in person. You might even combine this problem with the still lacking NC letter. Thinking out loud here, how about proposing you and he compose a short TM reading something like, "Leave us alone," and you press the enter key to send it...or something like that?

Remember POJA and your communicative skills! Get his input on how to solve the problem before you make your proposal.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 05:42 PM
Quote
Remember POJA and your communicative skills! Get his input on how to solve the problem before you make your proposal.

He doesn't think her sending one TM is that big of a deal. I do. I can't make him see my POV ... I can try to influence him, but that would only work if he wants to be influenced.

Put yourself in his shoes ... how would you want this subject brought up to avoid LBs and work toward POJA?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 06:52 PM
No, I actually think he DOES at least partly understand your POV and he’s more than half the way there to agreeing with your position. (1) He's suggested he might be receptive to changing the phone number. That was an invitation, TFC, whether his tone of voice and demeanor indicated it or not. You can work on that. (2) He knew you wanted honesty and DID tell you about the TM. He wouldn't have if he was convinced it was no big deal. (3) He was protective...he asked you at one point if you were okay. Don’t think so much about what he SAID; think more of what he didn’t say, and what he’s done.

Bit by bit, this problem can be solved, TFC, but probably not today. Take a deep breath, or do one of those primal scream things I’ve read about, or whatever you have to do to put the hurt aside for a moment. You’ve done with so many other hurts since this began; I know you have. Do it with this too so you can deal with it using some good problem solving techniques, okay?

This contact from OW is something you have a good reason to bring up with him whenever the opportunity presents, as it has today. Set yourself up for success, TFC. Think of ways to influence your husband without pushing him to move faster than he can at the moment. As you’ve said yourself, you can’t change him; he must change himself. Also…remember, it’s human nature when one is pushed, one resists and might even push back.

Here are a few things I can think of off the top of my head. In general terms, find a way to make changing the cell number a more attractive proposition than the difficulties of changing a business phone number. I don’t know your husband so you must filter this through your knowledge of his behavior.

How about asking him if you were to give him a new phone (with all the bells and whistles) for Christmas/his birthday/anniversary/for TGIF or whatever, and work things around to get it across to him that if you help him notify everyone, will he finally pull the trigger? It gets the conversation going in a non-accusatory way. No one is on edge; no one is defensive, okay?

Maybe he grins and nods. Problem solved. You launch into a discussion of what features he likes on all these new phones. Perhaps you find an opportunity remark, with a certain phone, he can send video back to your daughter of interesting things he sees. You take the occasion to lightly lament about how she misses him when he’s gone, and then you let it slide. That idea has been planted or nourished. There’ll be another time to work that issue.

Maybe he scoffs at the idea of changing phones. He’s not receptive at the moment. Maybe he feels threatened for some reason you can’t fathom. Maybe his back is hurting. Maybe he’s remembering something on that TV show last night that’s bothering him on a level he isn’t even aware of.

Not a problem. It’s not failure if he didn’t immediately and enthusiastically jump on board. Reiterate how bad it makes you feel and then walk away from the conversation.

Tie this all together, lady. This is one coherent program. You’ve started a good process of letting him know you won’t be disrespected in discussions by stating your boundary and doing the 180, right? If you apply a 180 in this, it’s a subliminal reminder to him (or on a deeper level, his subconscious) that the phone number issue is no different from verbally abusing you. Then…let it be until you have another chance to bring it up.

Bit by bit, TFC, he’ll change his mind if everything you do reinforces a growing consensus in his mind. The modified Plan A/180 thing continues.

I’ve been saying this for a few days now, TFC. Baby steps, okay? Baby steps.

Hang in there, lady. You’re in this for the long haul, right?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 07:06 PM
I am definitely in this for the long haul. He mentioned today that he really wants to try to get in IC asap to deal with our martial issues. In the same sentence, he mentioned us making a move for a fresh start. Sounds good, right?

Talked to my best friend about this. She thought I shouldn't push the issue about changing the phone number or telling OW to buzz off b/c he was honest about it. Her suggestion was to sit back, wait, and see if it happens again. If I notice that contact is beginning to resume then address these issues.

Maybe I am jumping the gun here? I just want to handle all this by the book to avoid any catastrophes.

Great suggestions, btw, LH! Thanks!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 08:51 PM
You're not jumping the gun, per se, TFC. NC means NC, absolutely. However, it has to come from a conviction your husband holds within himself also. The difficulty is that changing peoples' minds is a lengthy process.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and that's awfully risky because I do NOT know your husband, though I'm beginning to see glimpses of him in your posts. Keep that in mind, okay?

With that caveat, I think is your husband agrees with your best friend. He was honest about the contact and he hasn't responded to the attempted contact. (He may well rationalize this issue by thinking he can't control what the OW does.) So long as he doesn't reply (he thinks), there really isn't any contact. He feels it takes two to communicate, to make contact, right? This problem is on a back burner in your husband's mind because the logic hangs together throughout his "argument" with himself.

However, your friend (and your husband, though they aren’t acting in concert) are only partially right. The fact is, if there is any contact from her (no matter if it’s unsolicited or not), there's a chance he might be tempted in the right set of circumstances and no one wants that. (I’m not sure you can ever say that to him, btw.)

Anyway, instead of "waiting to see if it happens again," you actively watch for openings to reinforce the idea of full NC by seeking out opportunities to get that phone number changed and getting the symbolic commitment of an NC “letter” sent.

It doesn’t have to be another attempted contact from her. In fact, it should not be.

What are the times you can hit this issue again? Well, if an opportunity presents to give him a phone as a present, bring the issue up as I suggested. Other thoughts: if he gets a call and he complains the connection is lousy, bring up the idea of changing carriers and numbers. If the thing gets a smudge on the screen…etc. See how it goes?

Those are just things I came up with sitting here at the keyboard, typing without stopping to think. Again, I don’t know your husband. You can FIND ways to pull this issue to the foreground in your husband’s mind.

Do you even have to wait for some issue about the phone to come up? I suggested earlier you could address your daughter’s welfare in the midst of working another issue. Where, and how, can you bring this up tangentially while doing something else? Strategy and tactics, TFC. Work at it, okay?

“By the book?” Well, you’re doing it by the book, TFC, by attempting to address the issue in the first place. What isn’t evident in many of the threads out here is that after NC is established, and the wayward spouse begins to show signs of recommitting, advances on some issues come slowly.

On occasion, the progress is glacially slow on the NC letter itself. I've seen threads where it's about the last thing to come in the recovery. I’ve seen posts out here where the NC letter still has not come, though the poster and the formerly wayward spouse are many months into recovery. I have a memory of one poster in whose recovery her FWH never did write an NC letter, though I can’t think of who it was.

I think your husband feels he is complying with the spirit of NC, while admitting in his mind that some of the details are left wanting. He’s not entirely wrong and in fact, when you think about it, that he’s bought into the spirit of NC at all is extraordinarily important, in and of itself. That’s ¾ of the way up the staircase with only a few low steps remaining, isn’t it? However, he errs in thinking the details aren’t important.

Your mission is to bring the details more clearly into focus for him so he unilaterally takes steps, or neutralize his opposition to changing phone numbers and formalizing the NC, right?

So, I challenge you. How do you do one or the other…or both? You know that guy you’re married to. When you’re ready, you tell your friend there with you, and your MB support group, what you can do, okay?

I like hearing about things you bounce off your best friend. She has a good head on her shoulders. I’d also like to hear of (appropriate) things you can relay from your IC after you bounce issues off her/him.

Hang in there, lady.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 10:12 PM
Forgot to say his idea of moving for a fresh start and his increasing openness to IC are excellent developments. He's buying into the MB program whether he realizes it or not. Has he read SAA, by any chance?

Getting confused about NC letters? When in doubt, I go back to the source and review things, looking for clues. Chapter 5, "How To Tell A Lover That The relationship Is Over" would be some good reading. What's your opinion on the word "recommended" Dr. Harley uses on page 58?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 10:21 PM
He hasn't read SAA yet, but we have 2 copies so that hopefully we can work through it together sometime soon. I like the idea of "recommending" a NC letter. His would need to be more of a "go away" letter - LOL. I can't press too hard on this because I, in fact, never wrote a NC letter. I told XOM on DDay "Don't call me ever again!" ... and he didn't. Of course, my H also told him something along the lines of knee-breaking would occur should XOM contact anyone in H's family!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 10:49 PM
Yes, that you never sent a letter complicates the issue. The point seems to have been conveyed to XOM quite effectively, though, and your husband is apparently comfortable you're not in contact. When you two get a little bit further along in this recovery, you might want to readdress the issue of you sending an NC communication to XOM...perhaps in conjunction with him doing the same?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 11:44 PM
That's a good idea. I would like for my NC letter to XOM to be from BOTH H and me. I don't care if his is from both of us or not, but if I end up doing one I want it from US! I would love nothing more than to see H tell her to go away!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Backsliding: NC BROKEN!!!! - 05/25/07 11:56 PM
There ya go. Now make a plan to make that happen, lady.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Working our way through MB ... - 05/28/07 04:10 PM
Although I don't believe my H is aware of it, we seem to be working our way down the list of MB techniques for M! shocked

ENs: I think we are both in Plan A a lot of the time. Of course I still 180 him when he acts like WH, which isn't too often. But he seems to be making a tremendous effort at meeting my ENs. We have a date tonight! Our first in a looooooooooong time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

RH: For the most part, we seem to have nailed Radical Honesty. Its what we do with that honesty that needs to be worked on. And I still don't quite feel like he's 100% honest 100% of the time. But these things take time. I'm trying to be sure to provide a "safe" environment each time he tells me something that might be difficult to say.

I think I am getting the Gaslighting under control - thanks to all those posts about it here on MB! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He seems to have learned that I will walk away if he starts up, so the G(aslighting) comments are lightening up.

So, I think I'll introduce him to POJA this week ... H has always been a HUGE Independent Behaviors kind-of-guy, and right now he seems to be making some pretty big career decisions without me. While I don't think that I have the right to make decisions for him, or tell him he can't do something, I do feel like we should discuss these things openly and together.

We'll work our way into the Rule of Protection ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/28/07 05:11 PM
Excellent, TFC. Bit by bit, you're making a success of this and setting yourself up for greater success all the time. It doesn’t mean you’re home free, but that glass is filling up nicely.

Yes, Larry178's post on gaslighting, particularly the excerpt from that book, is very enlightening and I’m going to be ordering that text on payday.

I think POJA is a good, logical next step. Have you thought about how you’re going to approach it?

Seems to me this might be a behavior that he’s been engaging in for a long time and old habits are hard ones to break. Don’t be discouraged if you can’t coax him out of the pattern all at once. On the other hand, from what you’ve shared of his words and (more importantly) his actions, he really seems to be conscientiously working to improve your relationship. I like what I’m hearing from you.

I hope you enjoy your Memorial Day, lady. Have a good one.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/29/07 01:22 PM
I hope you had a great Memorial Day! We had my parents watch DD and went to play tennis - we had a lot of fun! RC isn't anywhere near the top of either of our ENs, but it certainly added units to the Love Bank for each of us!

The Gaslighting posts have been very informational ... I quit reading Larry178's post when there was drama (what's with all the MB arguments these days?). There isn't a lot of info on here, or out there (on the www), about how to react to the Gaslighting. I must say that I have found that saying - "I'm not listening to this", "You are making this about something that it is not. When you are ready to discuss the real issue, I'll talk" or just walking away all seem to work well. My H has noticed that I won't take that garbage anymore - and I think that he respects me more for it. My opinion on reacting to Gaslighting is that its a boundary issue. But that's JMO, and I'm no expert!

I think I'm going to approach POJA on layman's terms ... by just saying something like "We've been working so well as a team lately and I'm so happy about that! I think that its important that we continue to grow as a team. Something that would help me feel like that would be for us to make more decisions together. How would you feel about that?" I'm certainly open to suggestions on this ...

IBs are a lifelong habit for my H ... I'm not expecting changes overnight. (My patience is growing!) But he has made a conscious decision to work on communicating and I think he will continue on this path ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/29/07 07:00 PM
I think you're handling gaslighting exactly the way it should be. The thing about gaslighting is that once you understand what it is, it loses its power. Your husband WILL respect you all the more for calling him on it. He told you so the other day. As long as you don't slip into disrespectful judgments, there's no reason why he'll consider it in any other fashion, is there? Kudos!

Seems to me you have a good handle on how to handle POJA too. I don’t know if you broach it as just a concept the first time, or whether you wait for an actual event where a mutual decision is preferable. You know yourself and your husband and I’m certain you’ll find the right time and place. Again…Kudos!

Keep up the great work, lady.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/30/07 08:02 PM
How're you doing today, lady?

The sun is shining here in South Texas for the second day in a row...and the temperatures are finally getting up to normal. I was thinking winter was going to last all the way up to July.

I hope your world is just as sunny and warm today.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/30/07 11:26 PM
It is a beautiful Southern day here too! So nice, in fact, that I really wanted to skip work and play outside ... LOL!

Emotionally, things are almost as sunny. I am grateful for the kindness and communication that my H is displaying. The only downside is that there really is no show of love. No kiss or hug goodbye, no "I love you", etc. Its pretty apparent that DD is the main reason he's still here. I'm ok with that being the reason he stays for now. I just hope he'll fall in love with me again ...

Glad to hear about the beautiful day you're having! Thanks for being here to check on me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/30/07 11:40 PM
P.S. After reading Dr. Harley's Q&A about Alcoholic Spouses, I'm thinking about joining AlAnon ... know anything about this?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/30/07 11:45 PM
I regret that I know almost nothing about it beyond the fact they and AA work on addictions. MelodyLane is very well versed in those organizations. You might start a thread asking for advice on that.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 01:19 AM
LH - What MEDC said about me upsetting all the MB vets has been weighing heavily on my mind ... would you be willing to let me know if I've said/done anything in my thread that raises a flag to you? You're honesty with me has been much appreciated, and this is certainly something I want to rid my head of. If I have attitudes or behaviors that are widely unaccepted, I think this is something that I obviously need to work on ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 01:55 AM
Nope, if I wasn't convinced of your sincere remorse for your affair and honesty, I wouldn't be here right now. I don't recall what MEDC said, and I'm not even going to go look for it because he has exactly one response when he sees an admission the betrayed spouse has also had an affair. It was when I saw your remorse, and his obstinate refusal to budge off the 2X4's that I decided to get involved.

I don't know what you mean by attitudes or behaviors not widely accepted, but I've not seen any evidence of such. If you'd like to talk about it, elbow up to the table and lay your cards down, okay? ("World Poker Tour" on the Travel Channel is playing in the background.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 02:05 AM
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If you'd like to talk about it, elbow up to the table and lay your cards down, okay? ("World Poker Tour" on the Travel Channel is playing in the background.)

LOL ... this reminds me of the old poker nights we had at our house! Fond memories!

I must say that I didn't think I was out of line, rude, etc. But MEDC harped on me ... BIG TIME! And I felt attacked a lot of the time by him. But his repeated question of why the MB vets "avoid" my thread has resonated with me - not because I think he's right, but because it brought back childhood feelings of not being the popular girl.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 02:40 AM
OK - my rant is over ... the last thing I want to do is cause another MB riot! (There seem to be enough of these lately!)

Thanks again, LH!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 03:37 AM
Sorry for being so tardy responding. I've been researching an answer for another poster.

Well, I think MEDC was factually incorrect in saying the MB "vets" were avoiding you. It's demonstrably untrue. Orchid, for instance, is one of the site's finest pros and she's been here for you from time to time. The fact is, I think it's fairly routine that someone becomes a primary poster to a new arrival and other long-term MB’ers observe but don’t post. When a "vet" (I hesitate to use that term for myself. I’m not sure it’s legitimate.) is working with a new arrival, others don't constantly join in the conversations unless they see something being missed.

For myself, if I go to a thread and someone is working with the individual, I read and absorb, but I don't take the risk of interfering by making anything more than a “thumbs up” comment…and even that is a thing seldom done. Posting a comment that doesn’t say anything different what’s already been advised isn’t productive, so most of us don’t do it.

Take a look at the number of times someone has accessed your thread. Lots of folks are looking but few are posting. That’s pretty normal. You’re getting a “peer review,” if you want to speak of it that way, but it’s a silent one.

If you think any of this is unusual, take a look at losinit’s thread. I’m also the primary poster there of late…and he’s not even in your same situation. There are exceptions to this, TFC, and these are only my observations, but I think if you were being given invalid suggestions, someone would make it clear where I was being stupid. For instance, I guarantee you my friend Melody would cut me off at the knees if she thought I was giving you bad advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, let’s go back to the lack of demonstrable affection from your husband right now. I know that hurts. I’ve lived with it myself. That is probably something that is going to come around very slowly. Frankly, I think it may be sometime during MC that the situation begins to resolve itself. Your husband has not yet recovered from your affair, even as you haven’t fully recovered from his. I keep hitting the issue of MC and it’s because I see it as the most critical thing you two must do to heal.

I think MC for you two is especially important because the recommended solutions in SAA (15 hours a week of quality time, for instance) are things that are difficult to do because of your husband’s job. It simply keeps him on the road far too often. I know, I know. That was part of the deal when you married him and it’s not going to change. Still, I regret it. I think the only way you can combat this is to make weekends the best they can be, while understanding your daughter needs time with him too. And stuff gets in the way sometimes too.

But…MC will be worthless until your husband is ready for it and it’s still early to be expecting it. Stay strong and work on the other issues that will make your marriage stronger when recovery is complete, okay?

In the meantime, I can suggest you give your daughter extra hugs whenever you can and use the love she gives you to get past this time. It’s not the same, but it sure fills the void. I got through a lot of hard times back in the day because my daughters and I were so close.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 01:44 PM
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The fact is, I think it's fairly routine that someone becomes a primary poster to a new arrival and other long-term MB’ers observe but don’t post. When a "vet" (I hesitate to use that term for myself. I’m not sure it’s legitimate.) is working with a new arrival, others don't constantly join in the conversations unless they see something being missed.

This is what I was thinking was the case. You've been quite thorough and dedicated to MB methodology!

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But…MC will be worthless until your husband is ready for it and it’s still early to be expecting it. Stay strong and work on the other issues that will make your marriage stronger when recovery is complete, okay?

I agree that MC will be a waste of time and money if he isn't interested. I'm hoping I can convince him to do the MB Weekend in October, but that's a slim chance.

I know that I should be eternally grateful for what I am getting from him now (I am grateful, don't get me wrong), but affection is my #1 EN! Not getting that from my H leaves me with an empty feeling. I think I'm more lonely when he's home than when he's out of town. Why? Because when he's out of town, I know its unrealistic to expect [physical] affection from another city! But when he's in the room, on the same sofa, in the same bed ... that's when its the loneliest! There he is - right there! And he hardly looks at me or makes any form of contact with me other than talking. Its devastating! But I'm trying to be patient about this.

I'm also trying to be patient about other stuff too ... like being seen in public together. As I've mentioned before, H is a public figure and I used to be seen with him all the time. Now, he still doesn't wear his wedding ring and I'm never seen with him. I've heard that people are talking about how we're "on the brink of divorce" ... I would like to squash these rumors, but I can't control what other people think or say. H says he's not ready for me to be there (in the public eye) just yet - which I can understand. But I'm wondering when I can hope for such a thing? I'm sick of hearing about all the rumors, about all the girls that are delighted to hear of our impending divorce (which isn't even the case), etc. All this temptation to him could be detrimental to our M right now ... but I'm trying to think "half-full"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 05:28 PM
I think the glass is half-full. There are still many things that can go wrong, but there are many positive signs. He's coming around slowly but that's not unusual. If you have the opportunities, I'd work hard on IC and MC with the Harleys, plus that MB weekend. Ignore the eager rumors. They're nothing.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 06:54 PM
The eager rumors may seem like nothing, but some of these women are like piranhas! LOL I shouldn't care what other people think, but since its part of our life to be out there for all to see and assume, I do. When that's the real reason I shouldn't care! Something to work on in IC.

Its another beautiful Southern day here LH! How's South Texas today?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 07:07 PM
Yes, but so long as you're working to meet his EN's, it has little effect and should die down. You're right. Check with your IC.

Great day here too. Partly cloudy, but that's okay. We might even get up to 90 degrees today, and that'll be the first time this year. In 2006, we had 36 days of 90 degrees plus temps through today's date. This year -- zero. In fact the highs all year long have been 8 to 10 degrees below normal. We've had so much rain the Corps of Engineers is opening the flood gates on all the dams because they are critically full. Every drop that falls from here on out is runoff and likely to cause severe flooding. BTW, our rainiest month is July. Can you say, "Uh oh!" And to think, I deliberately made the Air Force pay my way here when I retired because of an annual average of 320 days of sunshine a year! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 05/31/07 08:13 PM
Have you noticed LovingAlong's thread on getting a reluctant spouse to commit? Maybe you can check out "Joseph's Letter" linked there to see if you think it might have an impact on your relationship.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 01:02 AM
Just read through Joseph's Letter and LovingAlong's thread. I just worry that because I had an A first, a lot of these things don't apply ... make sense? I'm not trying to be stubborn, I promise!

Its just so weird - almost like what I imagine withdrawal would be like. I never experienced withdrawal from OM - I was glad to have him gone! But now I think I'm experiencing withdrawal from my H! He would cuddle with me at night even during his A, and now he doesn't. In the middle of the night last night he had the dog in bed cuddling - I told him if he wanted to cuddle with something in our bed it should be me. He mentioned it today ... I repeated what I'd said last night. He said (jokingly?) "Cuddle with your hot [censored]? Whatever! You get me all hot and sweaty." I was HOPING this would go to "hot and bothered" ... LOL, but no such luck. So, how long should I expect this? How long can I survive in an unaffectionate marriage with affection being a top EN?

Can you tell I'm really getting depressed about this?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 01:20 AM
Yeah, Joseph's letter would have to be modified. Thought it might give you an idea.

TFC, true affection is going to be one of the last things to come back to your marriage. There are still a lot of issues between you two and they're getting in the way. The only advice I've seen on the board is that one just has to grin and bear it as long as one can. You've got to fight the depression with any device you can find. Get extra hugs from your daughter, play with the dog when your husband is gone, talk to your sister, Mom, whatever you can do to get positive feedback when you're feeling down. Your best friend and IC are good sources to talk to also.

I'm not entirely sure what he said was a rejection, btw. The door has been opened on the subject. What can you do to turn it in your favor?

Hang tough, TFC. There have been a lot of good things happening over the past few weeks. Stay with it, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 02:39 AM
I'm definitely in this for the long haul! No worries there! I love having MB here for support - its like free therapy all day, every day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you read the link in LA's thread about manipulative people? My H is an EXPERT at every last one of these ... this leaves me in a quandary over his current behavior. I see so many of these manipulative techniques being used on me time and time again. This is nothing new in our relationship, but I suppose I am more aware of all the issues that have held a place in our M over the last 6 years. I want to stay married to him and resolve not only the A issues, but all the other issues that were lingering before.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 03:18 AM
I suspect many of those issues can be POJA'd, but some will require you two sitting with a good MC and hashing them out. I sure hope you can get some sessions with the Harleys. They can do more in one hour on the phone than some counselors can do in a month of meetings.

Have you checked into their home course?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 03:28 AM
I will def check into the home course ... especially since H isn't ready for MC yet. But I am quickly realizing how much we really do need MC.

Btw - Tonight H brought up that he realized that there was no one else to carry on his name. Then said to DD "Well, DD, looks like we're going to have to get you a little brother." H knows how much I want another baby, especially a boy. This was so weird! Was he messing with my head? Is he seriously contemplating having a baby? Who knows! I can't even ask him - every time a baby is brought up since my A he says he can't even think about having a baby with me. So, I guess its just one of those things that I shouldn't think too much about ... I'm probably over-analyzing.
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 04:45 AM
Hi, stopped in to check on you...

TBH, I think that you are reading into it...it is what it is! Plain and simply!

Here's something that I've heard in Al-anon before that I applied to STBX when he was WH...

At the timet hat they say thigns like this THEY are sincere! In my cases and with many others i think that it's the following through that's the hard part for them!

Just take it as an open and honest staement on his part! He's thinking about it...it's come to his mind...and let it go!

My concern is the fact that you feel that you can't bring it up...Why? Is your lack of action based on what YOU think he will say? If that's the case, how can you live life continually reacting to things?

Sometimes...well, most of the time, it's better from my experience to live beyond that fear...fear is courage turned inside out! not to mention, typically what "WE" think will happen will not...but as human beings we hold committee meetings in our heads playing out what will happen...

This is insanity from my POV...for me it was...I would repeat the sitch in my head SOOO many times that "I" knew the outcome...NOT the case...I let my fear take hold on me...constantly reacting...endly cycle!

The defintion of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results! For the longest time I didn't "GET IT"...

I strongly recommend that you use that wonderful voice of yours and speak up...easier said than done...I'm still working on it myself...finding that I fear saying what's truely on my mind...but that's when that committee is speaking up...live through the fear...

It's things like "knowing" what the OP is going to say that's one of those threads in the quilt of enmeshment!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Supporting you all the way!

((((TFC))))
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Working our way through MB ... - 06/01/07 03:47 PM
Strivn - thanks for checking in! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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My concern is the fact that you feel that you can't bring it up...Why? Is your lack of action based on what YOU think he will say? If that's the case, how can you live life continually reacting to things?

I can't bring it (or a lot of things) up b/c I don't feel "safe" in doing so. I realized that he prob felt the same way a little while ago, and have tried my best to create an open forum for calm discussion, with no retribution. My H has been quite on-edge as of late, so I generally walk on eggshells to avoid unnecessary conflict.

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Sometimes...well, most of the time, it's better from my experience to live beyond that fear...fear is courage turned inside out! not to mention, typically what "WE" think will happen will not...but as human beings we hold committee meetings in our heads playing out what will happen...

So, how do you break through the fear? I do have that committee - it speaks more than I do, I think. I assume that I know H well enough to know what his reaction will be to almost everything. I'm rarely proven wrong, but that could be because I don't take the risk often to find out.

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The defintion of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results! For the longest time I didn't "GET IT"...

You know, I say this all the time! Time for me to practice what I preach?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 04:00 PM
H has been "on-edge" a lot since his last trip. I personally question whether he saw OW on that trip or not. We know that she sent him that TM, but does that mean that they didn't see each other? Was it coincidence that they were in the same city and she sent that TM? Not sure. But he is blowing up at me for no reason lately ... just like he did when he was seeing her. He claims it is stress - and he does have a lot going on right now. But it oddly started up on a bigger level right after her attempted(?) contact.

This morning he came downstairs and I was cleaning up. He said "hey". I looked up from the dishes, smiled, and said "good morning". Then he blew up! He literally glared at me and asked what my attitude was for! I truly didn't have one! It was bizarre! I generally chalk it up to his emotions, lack of sleep, and stress. But it gets old. Then he threatened D again ... He left to go out of town again today. He'll be back home Sunday.

So, I've realized that I have absolutely NO control over whether or not he sees or talks to OW, as I cannot control him. I know that I can control what I do. However, I have no way of knowing for sure if they are still in contact. So, I have 2 days to get my head back on straight. I feel like I'm spinning.

Anyone want to "talk" me through this?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 06:09 PM
The roller coaster goes up in one stretch; the roller coaster goes down in another, TFC. I was beginning to wonder when something like this would happen because my experience is the course of any human being's recovery is never a straight-line progression. What you need to do right now is remember all the progress you made over the past couple of weeks and bring all the good, and all the bad, events into one coherent context.

Take a deep breath now and let it out. Repeat. Things are never quite as bleak as you think while you're going through the event.

Talked to your best friend lately? Remember what you last relayed from her? Remember her asking where that young woman she used to know had gone? Remember the incident earlier that day, or the previous day, where your husband was irritated when you wouldn't speak up for yourself? Remember how good you felt when you did blurt out what was bothering you?

TFC, when he started in on you, it was disrespectful, and you had a perfect opportunity to restate your boundary on manipulation and disrespect. A 180 opportunity was thrust on you without warning. Stunned you, didn’t it?

I sympathize. It’s easy for me to advise you from long distance; I’m not the one who has to feel the raw emotions and feel the blood drain from my face in shock when the attack comes out of the blue, do I? Except that I’ve been there too, TFC. I know what happened to you and I’m so sorry you had to go through it.

From this point forward, TFC, I think you must prepare yourself in advance for the possibility of such setbacks coming at you without warning. Preparation is the key. Think about what you’ll do and say the next time it happens. When it comes at you, state your boundary and unwillingness to be manipulated. Keep your wits about you, TFC. Remember what that girl your best friend would have done there, okay? Use some of Orchid’s reverse babble if he brings up divorce again if you have a good RB response…then turn around and walk away from it. It won’t do any good to stand and argue about it. You won’t change his attitude; he has to do that for himself.

Okay, your hubby may be acting as I’ve seen other WS’s act when they break NC. The possibility must be considered…but I hope I’m wrong. I hope the fact she was in the same city may just have created some stress in your husband that only added to the highly stressful time frame you say he’s going through and he boiled over. It could be as simple as that. Let’s hope it is. Unless you ask him (calmly and ready to hear what he says one way or the other), TFC, you’ll never know. I’ll ask again. Where’s that young lady your best friend was missing?

I forget. Are you looking at his cell phone records on line? Has there been any activity there? Has he been taking (or making) phone calls in private lately? Any red flags other than a bad attitude lately? Gather all the information you can so you can make as good a determination as possible, okay?

BTW, to finish off something you said just yesterday, “Hot and sweaty,” is usually man-speak for what you’d rather he’d have said.

Okay, time for me to shut up and let others talk to you. I don’t often ask people directly to do certain things because I AM just an amateur out here. I’m going to break my rule this one time, TFC. Bluntly, I would like you to bring up these issues with your IC and get feedback from your best friend too.

What I see, as have others, is you can work on yourself in this area as a part of your Plan A and it’ll be beneficial even if your husband does keep on threatening divorce. Stay strong, TFC. This is a rough spot, but you will get through it. Don’t LET yourself go spinning through life, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 06:26 PM
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Use some of Orchid’s reverse babble if he brings up divorce again if you have a good RB response…then turn around and walk away from it. It won’t do any good to stand and argue about it. You won’t change his attitude; he has to do that for himself.

I was proud of myself for my reaction today. He said we were done and that it was over. I brought to his attention that he keeps threatening D. He said that this time it was no threat ... I said "fine - go get the D" and walked off. He stormed downstairs and packed the car, loudly. Then he came in and sat at the breakfast table like nothing ever happened!

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TFC, when he started in on you, it was disrespectful, and you had a perfect opportunity to restate your boundary on manipulation and disrespect. A 180 opportunity was thrust on you without warning. Stunned you, didn’t it?

Is it too late? Can I 180 while he's gone today and tomorrow? Not call him, get off the phone first when he calls, etc. Would this still show him that I won't tolerate being treated like I was this morning?

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BTW, to finish off something you said just yesterday, “Hot and sweaty,” is usually man-speak for what you’d rather he’d have said.

I normally would agree. But it has been a week! The only time we go a week without SF is if he's out of town for longer than that ... but he's been home! My H has a healthy sexual appetite, so his loss of one is very concerning. Though I am trying really hard to blame it on his current stress.

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Unless you ask him (calmly and ready to hear what he says one way or the other), TFC, you’ll never know. I’ll ask again. Where’s that young lady your best friend was missing?

I want to ask him, but I don't want to start another argument. Maybe I'll ask anyway - his reaction is up to him, mine is up to me right?

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I forget. Are you looking at his cell phone records on line? Has there been any activity there? Has he been taking (or making) phone calls in private lately? Any red flags other than a bad attitude lately? Gather all the information you can so you can make as good a determination as possible, okay?

I still check occasionally. The only contact I've noticed is that one TM that he told me about. But who's to say they didn't just get sneakier? I just have to go with what proof I have and the facts are that there is no real evidence of contact.

Thanks for calming me LH!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 07:19 PM
You say he's awfully mercurial lately and exhibited it again this morning. Strange days, indeed. I don't know what to make of it, TFC, particularly if you haven't detected anything overt in his records. What other methods of long distance contact could they have? Instant messaging or emails? Have any of his habits with respect to computer use changed recently?

Regarding asking him right now if he broke NC: If you want to confront him, it’s what you should do. If that’s what you need as that young woman your friend has been missing would do, then do it. Time for some Dutch Uncle stuff – be true to yourself…but considerate of others too, okay? Enough said.

An alternative could be to wait until he’s in the midst of another (shall we call it a tantrum?) and make a comment something like, “You’re acting just like you did when you were still (in contact with XXX). What’s going on here? Did you hear from her…or did you see her up in (wherever)?” It’s your call. You do what you need to do to clear the air.

With your expanded comments on this morning’s event, I think you handled it very well. Next time, tell us all this in one post, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I think tossing the “D” ball back in his court was exactly what was called for. Now, I don’t know how even your tone of voice was but if you did it calmly, without showing distress, it was excellent RB. Did you phrase it as Orchid suggests…appearing to agree while throwing him a curve ball?

{{Here’s an excerpt from the book about the continuing story of TFC and Hubby.

TFC turned to hubby with a concerned expression. “You know what, honey?” she said without any particular intonation. “If you keep acting like DD when she was two years old and throwing a tantrum, I think your suggestion of a “D” might be the best thing for everyone concerned.” }} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Forgive my impertinence, okay?

Whether or not you did all that when you were shocked and stunned (it would be really, really hard to do it all when slapped in the face with his sharp recalcitrance)…it seems to have had the desired effect of taking him aback and calming him down. Good stuff.

That doesn’t mean I’m going to back off on IC recommendations and encouraging you get together with your best friend though. You’re not addressing my questions about IC and that makes me wonder what you’re holding back? Is there something I should know, TFC?

Stay strong, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 07:27 PM
I was actually quite calm about throwing the D ball back ... I guess I'm just sick of the threats.

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{{Here’s an excerpt from the book about the continuing story of TFC and Hubby.

TFC turned to hubby with a concerned expression. “You know what, honey?” she said without any particular intonation. “If you keep acting like DD when she was two years old and throwing a tantrum, I think your suggestion of a “D” might be the best thing for everyone concerned.” }} Forgive my impertinence, okay?

Funny stuff, LH! Should I decide to make a book about this, maybe I'll enlist you as a ghostwriter! LOL

I'm sorry I've not responded about IC comments ... nothing to note, except I don't have another appointment scheduled until next week. I'm just making notes as I go along of stuff to bring up in my next session.

My best friend is moving back here! I'm so excited! Having her closer will be great for me. She will help with DD and be there for me when H is out of town. I am looking forward to having her here to hold me to being an older, wiser version of that girl I used to be!

I'll try to be better about included all pertinent info in one post ... I just feel like I get so long-winded sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 07:37 PM
Haha. I'm glad you enjoyed the excerpt. I've been a jury member a few times and even in a high intensity assault case, the judge and attorneys found time for a quip now and then to relieve tension. BTW, if you want to write about anything, do it!

K, I hope you think it worthwhile to bring up some of the things S4B and I have suggested. I'd even like to hear if IC says I personally am full of...stuff...okay?

Great news about your best friend. I'm really, really glad to hear that.

Don't be concerned about the length of your posts. I've seen some that take me half an hour to read...and I'm a very fast reader. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have to go pay bills and buy some vittles 'cause the cupboard is bare.

ttyl

LH
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 08:05 PM
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So, how do you break through the fear?

YOU do it anyway...speak up...some assuming...YOU are becoming a new person and SO IS your DH...

Well, we hope that he is...

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But he is blowing up at me for no reason lately ...

Can you do me a favor and try to look back on your M and see if there is a pattern of this? Honeymoon, H blows up, honeymoon...

Him blowing up COULD have nothing to do with OW...just be about him! There was a clear pattern in my M, when I was able to step back and look at it from a third party POV...

Come to find out it had nothing to do with me...it was his valleys, no matter what I did, this pattern was going to happen regardless...

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Then he threatened D again

Did you read LA's thread on manipulation? you may want to take some time doing that...if for anything but common knowledge! I was asked ALL the time what my attitude was and I didn't have one either! This is abuse in my book...

Well, from what I've read anyway...read up on verbal/emotional abuse and see if it applies to your sitch...

I see that Longhorn is giving you some EXCELLENT advice...

I see so many similiarities in your sitch and mine...it was SOO hard to deal with!!! I respect your strenght to deal with this...I think that you did the right thing by throwing the threat back at him...

let him know that you will not allow him to do this...in my sitch things got worse and he started throwing things and breaking things...wanted to let you know this in case that it happens you are not surprised and that IT IS domestic violence...

I have to learn the hard way and didn't know at the time that I could call the cops...

For me, things got worse when I started standing up for myself and I just got to the point where I couldn't handle STBX anymore and it was for me that I decided to get out...

FOR ME, it was the best decision that I've made in a long time...

I'm not saying that I recommend you do this...that IS of course, strictly YOUR decision! I'm just sharing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 08:53 PM
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Him blowing up COULD have nothing to do with OW...just be about him! There was a clear pattern in my M, when I was able to step back and look at it from a third party POV...

Come to find out it had nothing to do with me...it was his valleys, no matter what I did, this pattern was going to happen regardless...

I think you are right-on here ... It only has to do with HIM! I need to control how I react to it - that is my challenge.


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Did you read LA's thread on manipulation? you may want to take some time doing that...if for anything but common knowledge! I was asked ALL the time what my attitude was and I didn't have one either! This is abuse in my book...

Oh yeah! My H is a pro manipulator and Gaslighter. I am learning how to deal with it. Prime example: We had that silly incident this morning. He just called and apologized for it. BUT ... the apology was followed by "well, I just hadn't seen a call or TM from you, so I thought I'd be the bigger person." ARGH! I informed him that a comment like that completely eliminates the apology that prefaced it. I told him that there was no sense in saying he was sorry if he didn't mean it. This was followed by another apology and the excuse of being tired, etc.


I'm sorry to hear that your sitch escalated into violence - I'm glad you were able to remove yourself from that. No one deserves to be treated that way. I've never feared my H getting physically abusive with me, besides, he does a thorough enough job of making me feel crazy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It seems like the peaks and valleys are part of getting through to recovery. It just sucks.

So, I am making the conscious decision to:
- be a better woman, wife, mother
- not tolerate infidelity (from either of us)
- not tolerate Gaslighting or manipulation
- stand up for myself, DD, and what I believe in
- ask what needs to be asked, tell what needs to be told, and hear what needs to be heard

Good start to keeping my sanity?
Posted By: Strivn4Better Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/01/07 09:14 PM
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I'm sorry to hear that your sitch escalated into violence - I'm glad you were able to remove yourself from that. No one deserves to be treated that way. I've never feared my H getting physically abusive with me, besides, he does a thorough enough job of making me feel crazy

Thank you very much...thing is I didn't think that he would do the stuff that he was...but he was losing control of me...

I stopped conflict avoiding...learned my boundaries...and I got to the point that I did fear that the next step was him putting his hands on me...I mean he burned some of my books, SAA, HNHN, and two others...said that they were man hating books....

He tried to track me down on night when I left for a cooling off period...

I just wasn't giving him the opportunity to do anything stupid...

I, too, often felt like I was crazy...he would say things and then say that he didn't say them! What kind of bull is that? LMAO

Well, YOU, my dear, are doing a wonderful job...keep up the great work!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/02/07 01:02 AM
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Should I decide to make a book about this, maybe I'll enlist you as a ghostwriter! LOL

Not a problem, but I don't work cheap. That's how I supplement my military pension. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/02/07 01:25 AM
Is it really? Or are you pulling my leg? I've actually thought about writing a book. (Believe it or not, I'm a good writer ... when I'm not highly emotional and mid-crisis!) LOL
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/02/07 01:26 AM
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I, too, often felt like I was crazy...he would say things and then say that he didn't say them! What kind of bull is that? LMAO

Mine usually does the opposite ... he tells me that he told me something, when in reality he didn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/02/07 02:27 AM
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Is it really?
Yep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Both of those examples above are classic signs of gaslighting. Whew!
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/03/07 09:57 PM
I took yesterday off from my life ... I hung out and relaxed with DD and didn't think about my M. I was so tired and irritable from constantly stressing about it, and H was out of town, so I chose to take a day off! It was fabulous! Of course today it was back to the ol' grindstone - housework, Plan A, getting DD ready for camp, checking up on WH. (Yes, I said WH!)

So, after some checking up here is what I've found:
1. H's last trip to California produced a new woman for him to talk to. One that he talked to at 5:30 am on his way back in town today!
2. Another girl from a trip a while back had asked if we were going through with our D ... after he told me this, I told him he didn't need to talk to her anymore. Well, she sent him a message the other day - I still haven't been told about it.
3. Another girl that I've taken issue with was on the phone list from the middle of the night last night too.
4. Email from a male friend asking about H renting a room at his house .... H's response? "I really want to get out, but I also am being reasonable in know that with my schedule I could and prob would fall short on rent some months ... Luckily, I am gone soooo much that the whole f'ed up marriage ordeal isn't that big of a deal right now."

He's clearly not interested in doing what it takes to save this M - well, he is to my face, but not behind my back. I have gone to IC, improved myself, cut off all male friends, gone nowhere other than work, church, & to run errands, etc. H has simply continued his life and only minimized the number of calls to other women. But they're still there - and the California girl I haven't even been told about!

I am so sick of this crap! His attitude sucks - he is in WH mode and I don't think I can tolerate it anymore. We are coming up on month 6 of my DDay/NC and month 2 of his. I am so close to telling him to go ... he's made it very clear he has no interest in working on this M. I am not angry or in an uproar over this revelation. I am calm and almost think I've accepted that he may choose not to be in this M. But I don't want to give up.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 04:47 PM
That's very sad, TFC. I'm very disappointed in him, if what he said to his friend is true. I don't know how to fit his apologies to you at the beginning of this trip into this matrix. I wonder if he's only posturing with his friend, trying for the macho image?

The new OW is even more disturbing. On its face, he's not committed to ending those inappropriate relationships. His words in the email seem to say he's detaching from the marriage, and the new girl reinforces that.

Do you have a keylogger on the computer he uses for email, etc? If you do, have you considered confronting him on the new information? A keylogger will reveal any new passwords on his email and attempts to change information on the cell phone on-line records.

So sorry you're having to address these issues, TFC. It may be time for a calm, considered analysis of Plan B.

Hang in there, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 04:55 PM
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I wonder if he's only posturing with his friend, trying for the macho image?

I thought this too, but my thought is that its time to start standing up for our M ...

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Do you have a keylogger on the computer he uses for email, etc? If you do, have you considered confronting him on the new information? A keylogger will reveal any new passwords on his email and attempts to change information on the cell phone on-line records.

I don't need a keylogger ... I have become a pro at my detective work. I can check the cell phone records from my login, and don't need a separate one to check his.

I wonder if this new girl knows he's married? I'm so tempted to call her myself, but I don't know ...

He's going to be pissed when I tell him I checked the phone records - but I guess if he wasn't doing anything wrong, he wouldn't have anything to be pissed about! So, looks like I'm going to start lining up my Plan B ducks.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 05:25 PM
All right. Well, it certainly looks like it's time to find out what he's thinking, if he's thinking at all. Time for another D-day/confrontation. I think enough things have added up to warrant it.

What does your best friend say? Times like these are good days to give her a shout.

Don't apologize for snooping. It's been made necessary because he has demonstrated his integrity is sadly lacking. He'll retort you have done the same, but you've committed to radical honesty and transparency...while he's still hiding things.

Side note: Referring to the EN questionnaire, did your need for security ever come up? You shouldn't have to be competing with every new woman who pops up and announces her availability.

Yes, line up your Plan B ducks. Maybe touch base with your attorney beforehand to see if anything new needs to be done to protect your finances if you find it necessary to file a legal separation along with the Plan B action?

BTW, yesterday when you took a day off from all this? That’s what Plan B is designed to give you. You shelter in the darkness where you don’t hear of any new women or hurtful emails.

Set up this new D-day. Be prepared by reviewing your boundaries and know what specific commitments you want from him. Be ready for his anger and don’t let it affect you. Be prepared for an adverse reaction (he stomps out the door), be ready to counter some gaslighting or other manipulation...and even be prepared for him to agree he hasn’t been acting too smart.

If he does the latter, time for some serious discussion about boundaries (not allowing OW to intrude into the marriage), and how he’s going to make sure it doesn’t ever happen again. Frankly, I believe it’s time to address the issue of him not including you on some of these trips and “official” functions too. He’s been playing things loose and free for a while and I think it’s time to end the vacation from marital commitment.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 06:27 PM
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What does your best friend say? Times like these are good days to give her a shout.

She says I should have divorced him long ago ... I think she's sick of my drama.

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Side note: Referring to the EN questionnaire, did your need for security ever come up? You shouldn't have to be competing with every new woman who pops up and announces her availability.

I prob should have spelled this out for him ... time to edit the ENs questionnaire.

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If he does the latter, time for some serious discussion about boundaries (not allowing OW to intrude into the marriage), and how he’s going to make sure it doesn’t ever happen again. Frankly, I believe it’s time to address the issue of him not including you on some of these trips and “official” functions too. He’s been playing things loose and free for a while and I think it’s time to end the vacation from marital commitment.

I think the "vacation" is over too ... or just beginning for him.

I am thinking that I don't even have to tell him what I know. He's been 2-faced and he knows what he's done wrong. I think I can leave it at that. And then expose to MIL & SIL.

So - How long should setting up Plan B take?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 06:43 PM
Well, your friend certainly isn't given to obfuscation, is she? I’m sure she has her reasons for her opinions.

Exposure to MIL and FIL will bring on a confrontation. You’ll still need to be prepared for everything, including him having an epiphany and repenting.

By the way, you don’t have to let him know you looked at the cell phone records, etc. All you have to do is tell him you know about the new girl and you know about his friend asking if he wants to rent a room. As you say, he knows what he’s done and you’re not preparing evidence for presentation in a court of law. That you can identify the new OW and his friend’s willingness to get involved in this are plenty for him to know.

Darn, whatever he says and does, this clearly sets the clock on recovery back to zero.

Planning for Plan B takes as long as it takes. Make sure you’re ready first…see what the new exposure elicits…then see your attorney. Seems to me your WH’s attitudes, if he doesn’t make an immediate turnaround, might lead him to be less than financially supportive.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 06:58 PM
My best friend and I are very different people ... she wouldn't have married him in the 1st place. But she is all out of ideas and advice. Its ok - I have to understand. She's always there to vent to, and that's what really counts.

I'm not prepared for him to repent ... I guess I should be, but I don't want to get my hopes up. I enjoyed Saturday so much, that I think I'm close to prepared emotionally for Plan B.

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Seems to me your WH’s attitudes, if he doesn’t make an immediate turnaround, might lead him to be less than financially supportive.

That's whats so odd ... he's been so much better about being financially supportive as of late. But it would be a rude awakening (at least financially) to not have me.

Looks like a confrontation is in order this week. Maybe tonight? Not sure.

I've thought about posing as the original OW and sending him an email to see if he bites ... maybe this is too sneaky?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 07:28 PM
Oh yes, financial matters (if you go into Plan B) are going to be a BIG awakening for him. Huge wakeup call for many WS's. That's legitimate. Financial security is one of the basic EN's and Dr. Harley discusses it in one of his two scenarios in SAA. I think it was "Sue" who began missing the financial security her husband provided.

I hesitate to suggest you pose as anyone except for yourself. What would you gain by doing that beyond what you already know? Besides, as you say, keeping the high ground is always best.

You pick the time and place for D-day #2, TFC. Don't ambush him, but set yourself up for success in the matter.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 07:29 PM
Is there anything I should prepare for this time around that maybe I should have the 1st time?

High ground it is! No impersonations ... I was only seeking to gain info on whether or not they saw each other out of town the other week when she TMed him. But I don't want to be taking the low road.

I want it to be ASAP ... I am so over all this nonsense!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 08:23 PM
{Sorry to take so long in responding. We had a very bad storm here last night and the main trunk out of SAT seems to have been adversely affected. My ISP keeps dropping folks’ connections.}

I'm glad you aren't going to try to set him up to lie about seeing OW #1 when he was out of town. I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right when you looked back on it. On the other hand, you've waited long enough for him to reveal it himself. It's more than legitimate for you to ask if he had any contact with her...or just tell him you already know he did (by way of TM, at least) and you can ask why he didn't let you know.

Be calm, TFC. I think he needs to see you're beyond any thought of histrionics.

Don’t forget, you’re still in a modified Plan A. You’re courteous, but you enforce your boundaries by refusing to be gaslighted or manipulated. (Just reviewing your boundaries before hand will help you keep them mostly intact.)

I can't think of anything to prepare yourself for beyond some generalities. I think if I tried to do more than that, I could get you crosswise on what you know you want to do.

In general terms though, you know he’ll try to put it back on your shoulders. You’ve told me that’s one of his favorite tactics. You can say you’re willing to totally commit to the marriage, to radical honesty, and total transparency, etc., etc., right? Itemize the things you told us earlier this afternoon that you’ve been doing. Throw the ball back in his court by asking when he’s going to commit to those? Etc., etc.

You know him very well. Try to anticipate where he’ll go, TFC, and get there before him…but do it without ranting, if you get my meaning.

Deep breaths, lady. You’re ready for this. You’ve learned a lot in the past month and you’ve grown too. Be the woman the child you once were would be proud of.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 08:39 PM
Lh - Hope the storm didn't cause any damage (other than your connection)!

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I'm glad you aren't going to try to set him up to lie about seeing OW #1 when he was out of town. I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right when you looked back on it. On the other hand, you've waited long enough for him to reveal it himself. It's more than legitimate for you to ask if he had any contact with her...or just tell him you already know he did (by way of TM, at least) and you can ask why he didn't let you know.

He did tell me about the TM, but I think they saw each other too. But a set-up is the wrong way to go - I have to accept that there are some things I may never know.

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Throw the ball back in his court by asking when he’s going to commit to those? Etc., etc.

You're right - this is the way to go on this! "I've done XYZ, what are you going to do and when are you planning on doing it?"

Wish me luck! It may happen tonight!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 08:52 PM
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"I've done XYZ, what are you going to do and when are you planning on doing it?"


Yes, it's time he committed to something instead of hinting he's “leaning” in the direction of the marriage and his family. Were I you, I'd give him credit for the nice things he's done...and let him know you appreciated those things...but let him know this latest inappropriate series of phone calls has wiped it all out...or words to that effect. Speak from the heart.

You don't need it because you're preparing yourself, but I'll say it anyway. Good luck, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 08:54 PM
My best friend came up with her list of why I need to go into Plan B or D ASAP. I've edited names and any other info that would give too much info. Here is her email to me:

"This is a condensed list...

Not answering phone once in CA

Talking to CA girl at 5:00am

Bashing you to [co-workers] and probably anyone else who will listen

Not wearing his wedding ring and possibly telling girls that he is getting divorced or that he is not married

Going on trips without you

Treating you like sh*t...not acting like a husband or even a friend for that matter

Not being a good father to [DD], which is taking it's toll on her...her acting out more and not wanting to speak to him

Breaking promises to you and [DD]

Not being where he should be i.e. coming home from trip when he hadn't seen his family in 2 weeks

With-holding sex

Starting fights with you for no reason...asking you why you have attitude/what's your problem when you aren't doing anything negative

The text messages and phone calls he doesn't tell you about to girls...new and old

Pretty sure he saw [OW] out of town last week

Waiting too long to answer back text messages or phone calls

Upsetting [[DD]

Not telling you about messages/emails from girls

Bashing you in public "My wife is a ******" or something like that

Way too secretive and other suspicious behavior

Tried to open a checking account by himself and when you called him on it, changed the story to you guys having it as a joint account so he could put money in it when he is on the road

Won't cuddle with you

Threatens Divorce

Blames all marital problems on you and your affair even though it is his own actions that he doesn't want to be held accountable for - you've been accountable for yours

You are on a constant emotional roller coaster and he knows just what to say to placate you for awhile and keeps right on doing his crap

Gives you false hope with the promise of vacations or family time together, buying a new house together, etc.

Didn't just have an affair but actually had a girlfriend

Thinks he's single when on the road

The distasteful "boob" pictures which he cruelly left for you to find

He keeps giving out his phone number to girls

Has made no real effort toward working on the marriage and he has had more than enough time to think about what he wants to do...it's JUNE for God's sake!

He is just staying for the convenience to him

The nights he didn't come home and had you worried sick

Possibly going across the world without consulting you

Does not want any family responsibility...money, [DD]"

Keep in mind that those are HER opinions ... I happen to agree with a lot of them, though!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 09:07 PM
Those are all valid points you can bring up. Some of them appear to be from a time previous to D-day # 1, but since they haven't been resolved, they're still in play. Print out a list of those you agree with and have them in your mind when you open the discussion. That his activities are beginning to affect your daughter is particularly distressing.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 11:25 PM
Of course I come home today and he says he's arranged our Disney tix ... like that's supposed to make life all good! They aren't definite though, and he rarely follows through. I will end up making all the arrangements if we go.

He was joking around tonight about one of my friends wanting him (def a joke) ... and I said "yeah - her and about 10 other girls". He came back with "girls don't really talk to me" and I told him that judging from previous phone bills that wasn't the case. Then he played it off saying "I have friends, but that's all" ... and I replied letting him know that they weren't appropriate friends the wife doesn't know about them. He then made a snide remark about my A and how I screw my friends ... I just walked off.

After that he proceeded to tell me that he missed me today - but it was REAL sarcastic. I am just so sick of all this. He's going to be home tomorrow night. Looks like I'll confront him then ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 11:50 PM
Yeah, that was predictable. Heck, even I saw it coming.

Now, I suggest you let it drop for tonight. Put the whole thing out of your mind as best you can. When you feel the thoughts beginning to intrude, deliberately turn your mind to something else, okay? Take the evening off like you did all of yesterday. Hug your daughter, get a good night's sleep, and reengage tomorrow.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/04/07 11:55 PM
LOL - I'll try. But I thought about writing him a letter prefacing our discussion-to-be (tomorrow night). Even if I don't give it to him, at least I'll have all my thoughts collected beforehand. Whaddya think?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 12:03 AM
Putting things down "on paper" is an excellent way of putting your thoughts in order. Just don't let things consume you tonight, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 12:21 AM
Thanks, LH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 12:54 AM
De nada. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: medc Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 01:43 AM
TFC...if I were in your shoes, I would do a shout out to Pep, ML, BK, BopP, Mr & Mrs W... etc... you can do that on your topic line. While LH may be providing you with support (at this point I do not know as I am ignoring him) those that I mentioned are the best at offering you sound advice. LH had what I would consider a bit of a meltdown last week and put many, many long time vets here that are well respected on ignore. Personally, I think that you should be getting advice from more than one source here.

I don't feel like I want to battle with LH or you regarding your situation. Perhaps it will be better for you to get the input of vets here that have helped countless numbers of people.

Good luck.

MEDC
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 01:51 AM
As you mentioned before, the vets don't come to my thread, so I've been hesitant to ask for more help and have been grateful for the help I've received from LH, Orchid, Strivn, and anyone else I've left out.

I can't Plan A anymore ... my love bank is draining with all his wayward behavior. I know that you would like to see me be more patient, but I don't know if I have it in me.
Posted By: medc Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 01:55 AM
ASK the vets for help and they will help.
Posted By: believer Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 02:47 AM
If your love bank is running low, it is probably time to go to Plan B. I guarantee that when you run out of love and respect it is GONE. And it can happen very suddenly.

I would get all my ducks in a row, logistically and financially and get a Plan B letter ready.
Posted By: medc Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 02:58 AM
My 2 cents.
Sit your H down. Communicate your wishes clearly and consisely. Let him know that while both of you have made mistakes that have brought you to this point that there must be change NOW. Let him know that although you cannot force him to change, that you will enforce your own personal boundaries.
Since you have issue with being a bit controlling, I would run those boundaries by the board first. We can ehlp you edit out some of your "tendancies."
Let him know that you love him, that he is safe with you now, that you want to work on repairing all the damage that has been done to your relationship.
Too much time is passing with no real change. I know patience is not your strong suit... so, a plan is in order to communicate your boundaries. It would be good if you can get him to come here and post. He most certainly has a lot of residual hurt and anger over your A... and I know he has lashed out at you with his behaviors. But I think he loves you and wants this to work... I just don't think he feels safe and I know his self esteem has taken a huge hit.

So, before going to plan B make sure you have communicated exactly what you want and what you are willing to do to get there. Be ready to go dark... and DO NOT USE YOUR DAUGHTER as a weapon against him... he needs to see her regularly (I only say this because a lot of women pull this stunt).

So... TFC, what's the plan for right now?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 03:06 AM
I don't want to Plan B ... but I'm concerned that giving him "options" doesn't hold water with him b/c I've always backed down.

I agree that I should sit him down and explain my expectations.

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He most certainly has a lot of residual hurt and anger over your A... and I know he has lashed out at you with his behaviors. But I think he loves you and wants this to work... I just don't think he feels safe and I know his self esteem has taken a huge hit.

I agree with this as well. I now know somewhat how he feels - the whole city is talking about me (or so it seems) and I don't even feel like I can leave my house! But I want this to work.

I understand your warning about using DD as a weapon. I have made an agreement with myself to NEVER let her suffer more than she has to by doing this. He is still her father and she doesn't deserve to not have her Daddy! I never want to be the woman that uses her child as a bargaining chip.
Posted By: medc Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 03:08 AM
I left you a note on the other thread. If you would like, your H can post to me or even email me. I have been betrayed so most likely know what he is going through. He needs someone to talk sense to him right now. BK or Plank come to mind as others that might interact directly with your H. Both of them are more even tempered and eloquent than me.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 12:59 PM
I don't think that I can get him to come here ... but I'll try. Thanks!
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 12:59 PM
We had a tiff last night. He called on his way home and said he sensed something in my voice. I let him know that I was just relaxed after having had a glass of wine. He said that I had been standoffish all day (maybe I was). I said that nothing was wrong. He went on to say that he’s really been trying and it seemed to him like I’ve given up, I told him I haven’t. Then he said: “I hope that for DD’s sake you’ll give this M a try”. I informed him that I HAVE been trying, but its hard to believe this M is going anywhere with him acting like he’s single. He then said that I make assumptions by my snooping and that pisses him off. How can he trust me again if I keep on snooping? I asked how I was supposed to trust him? He claims its not about me trusting him, but about him trusting me. I claim that its about us BOTH trusting EACH OTHER. He said that I have unrealistic expectations for M. I told him that I didn't think they were at all, but we should probably discuss them. He said that I should just be grateful that he's still home, that he didn't kick me out and that he's at least trying to be my friend. I told him that I was grateful that he was home, but he doesn't seem to be even a very good friend right now. He told me that it wasn't about him being my friend - that it was about him at least seeing IF we could be friends before deciding IF we can be married. I told him that we ALREADY ARE married and it was time to start acting like it. He ignored me and followed with “you’re drinking again, you quit going to IC … this is just done.” (I had 2 glasses of wine last night for the first time in weeks. I rarely drink. And my therapist was booked up and I was busy with DD, so its been a couple of weeks but I have all my June appts scheduled.) I told him I wasn’t talking about this anymore and hung up.

So I LB’d like crazy last night. Bad way to handle things! This morning I told him that I felt things had gotten out of hand last night and that I was sorry. He just said “Ok thanks.” I need to make up for it today with GRACE and CONFIDENCE (as JL said).

P.S. H is planning a B-day Bash for himself next month ... and apparently I'm the ONLY person in the city not invited thus far. Oh well ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 04:52 PM
TFC, I think you kind of lost your way last night and this morning.

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"You're drinking again, you quit going to IC..."

Gaslight Translation: "You're a drunk and drunks are repulsive. You're crazy and obviously incapable of running your own life. Who are you to judge me?"


********

TFC, please read over what you've written this morning. Can you analyze that script and tell us how many instances of gaslighting and other manipulative techniques are in those few lines?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 05:46 PM
Quote
Gaslight Translation: "You're a drunk and drunks are repulsive. You're crazy and obviously incapable of running your own life. Who are you to judge me?"

I think it was more like "You're drinking again? What? There's only room for 1 drunk in this M and that's ME!" (Wait, that a DJ isn't it?)

Manipulative and/or Gaslighting Comments:

Quote
“I hope that for DD’s sake you’ll give this M a try”.

Quote
He then said that I make assumptions by my snooping and that pisses him off. How can he trust me again if I keep on snooping?

Quote
He claims its not about me trusting him, but about him trusting me.

Quote
He said that I have unrealistic expectations for M.

Quote
He ignored me and followed with “you’re drinking again, you quit going to IC … this is just done.”

Did I catch them all?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 07:15 PM
Here are some that I saw:

Quote
He said that I have unrealistic expectations for M.


Translation: "Listen, I LIKE living single. Who are you to say I should start pulling my own weight in this marriage?"


********
Quote
…He then said that I make assumptions by my snooping and that pisses him off. How can he trust me again if I keep on snooping?…

Translation: "I'm really tired of you finding out about my girlfriends. That's really aggravating. Would you PLEASE leave me alone so I can have inappropriate relationships with all the pretty girls I meet?"


********
Quote
He said that I should just be grateful that he's still home, that he didn't kick me out and that he's at least trying to be my friend.

Translation: Not much to translate; he’s saying it clearly. "Back off, TFC. I'm in charge here and you're just lucky you get anything from me. You don’t get to decide what you want out of this marriage and you’ll take what I think you deserve."


********
Quote
...he doesn't seem to be even a very good friend right now.

Isn't “being a friend” an old line of his? Wasn't an earlier discussion to the effect that if you wanted friends, you could go down to the IHOP and sit at the counter to chat with the waitress there?


********
Quote
...said I was sorry. He just said “Ok thanks.”

Translation: "Now that you're back in your place, I can relax for a while.

********

Quote
H is planning a B-day Bash for himself next month ... and apparently I'm the ONLY person in the city not invited thus far. Oh well ...

If you buy into his idea that you're a second-class citizen, I guess this is okay. Otherwise it's one of the most incredible insults I’ve ever seen a man slap a woman with.


********

This is just my take on things, TFC, and I'm not perfect in my analysis by any stretch of the imagination.

I know I wasn’t there. I didn’t hear every word that was spoken, but I’d have to say that argument didn't go well. I think he probably reduced you to tears (or nearly so) and he didn’t apologize for any of it. I think you forgot to look for gaslighting and disrespectful judgments from him. Whether you LB’d him or not, and I didn’t see any big ones in your message, he darn sure LB’d you. You didn’t enforce your boundaries and you let him lead the conversation down the path he wanted to go.

Worst of all, he deflected you from D-day #2. The conversation is now about whether he'll be your friend or not...instead of explaining what he's been doing and when he's going to start working toward a reconciliation.

Okay, that was last night. Today is today. Pick yourself up and get back in the game. I think you can put that modified Plan A and 180 back into action, lady.

Side Note: I think it’s useful every now and then to look at the big picture. Can you provide a synopsis for us, telling us what’s been happening for the past few months, lady? For instance, you’ve been in Plan A for how long? Seems to me like you’ve been there for about six months, though consciously for only about the last two or three, but still for a considerable time now. What are the major points of your Plan A? How has your WH reacted in that time?

TFC, I don’t think anyone out here will suggest you need to stay in this limbo for eternity, so I still believe you need to dust off that Plan B information and update it. You don’t need to make a decision on it today. You probably should not make any decisions today. But remember Dr. Harley himself has said Plan A brings the WS back to the marriage only about 15% of the time. In all other cases, a Plan B is necessary.

TFC, I sincerely believe you can recover this marriage. But…I don’t think you can do it with soft words, meaningful glances, and gentle caresses. I think the conversation last night, and his, “Okay, thanks…” should be an eye-opener about where his head is right now. Respectfully, I think he’ll eat up all the soft words, etc., and it will reinforce his cake-eating. Instead, he reacted more positively when you stood up for yourself. Remember what he said about that a couple weeks ago?

Have you told your best friend about what your WH said last night and the incident this morning?

Hang in there, TFC. You’ll get through this. Last night will just be a fading memory when you get to the other side of this tragedy.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 07:40 PM
I wasn't in tears last night, but I am today ... I am more confused than ever!

Breakdown:
DDay 12/26/06 - NC in place & kept
Jan 2007 - BH starts going out all the time, spending lots of money, making new (questionable)friends, job has him traveling more & more
March 1 - H begins A with OW - in town, but doesn't come home after going out
H doesn't come home 7 days in March that he is in town.
March 6 - we had MC with SH, H was texting OW during the session
March 17 - 6 yr anniversary - H spent it with OW
March 22-30 - H traveling for work - gathers numerous women's phone numbers, uses them a plenty, and has to mail 1 girl's jewelry back to her upon his arrival home
March 31 - I find nasty pics in his car from last trip - expose A and all behavior to family & friends
April 1 - Confront H about all the women, pictures, and OW - H agrees to straighten up
April 2-7 - I take DD to beach, H travels for work ... during this week he lied about talking to OW + others, still picked up new phone numbers
April 9 - found out H had been spending the night with OW
April 10 - confronted H, asked him to leave ... explained that when he found out about my A, I ended it - I expect the same, H agrees to end it
April 11 - H tells me he's ended it with OW
April 12 - H lied - still in contact with OW, told H I'd found an apartment for him and will be placing a deposit on it during my lunch time ... H agrees to really end things with OW, but won't do it in front of me. H ends A.
April 18 - OW sends H email miss him, H doesn't respond but never told me about it either
April 28 - H lies about what he did after work out of town, I find out next day and confront
May 1 - H runs into XOM out of town, but remains fairly calm
May 5 - H is in town, I find out he's telling girls at the bar that he is getting a D
May 6-12 - H travels to CA, doesn't answer any calls or TMs the whole trip, but returns calls later, tells me he's surprising me for Mother's day by coming home and then holds it over my head all week
May 13 - H acts like a jerk all day, finally acts nice in the evening and we talked - seems like things are getting better again

I can't handle any more right now ... we do good for a week or so, but the whole time he just keeps on doing whatever he wants. We only get better b/c I cut back on snooping when we're getting along. Then I decide to check, and lo and behold! He's been talking to all these girls all along, and I had no clue! So, he acts more and more each day like he wants to work it out and then does/says something that takes it back to zero.
Posted By: medc Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 07:51 PM
GRACE!

THIS IS A MARATHON AND YOU ARE TREATING IT LIKE A SPRINT.

It seems you get great advice... JL's post to you... you agree to do it... and then poof, it's gone.

GRACE!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 07:54 PM
I'm sorry, TFC. I know it's confusing, and everything hurts. You are the one who has to do the hard work in this and that’s not fair, but no one else can do anything more than advise. I point out things I see from long-distance and I hope they’re more useful than not, but there's no intent to cause more pain than you're already experiencing.

Let all this slide for the rest of the afternoon and evening, okay? Making a decision on anything about your relationship is not a good thing to do today, so consciously forbid yourself to do it. Sit back and relax, pushing all this out of your mind.

Let's talk when you're ready, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 07:54 PM
Its not gone, I promise ... I was responding to another poster. I still want to make this M work! In a serious way! H is home tonight, will maintain GRACE & CONFIDENCE this evening ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 08:28 PM
Quote
I'm sorry, TFC. I know it's confusing, and everything hurts. You are the one who has to do the hard work in this and that’s not fair, but no one else can do anything more than advise. I point out things I see from long-distance and I hope they’re more useful than not, but there's no intent to cause more pain than you're already experiencing.

Let all this slide for the rest of the afternoon and evening, okay? Making a decision on anything about your relationship is not a good thing to do today, so consciously forbid yourself to do it. Sit back and relax, pushing all this out of your mind.

Let's talk when you're ready, okay?

Hard to do this ... especially when I just found out OW tried to come home with my H on his b-day LAST YEAR! And, the girl I was originally concerned about? The one that is really just a friend but had the inappropriate IMs? Just found out their "friendship" started back in September 2006 - BEFORE MY A! He never told me about her! He told me he wasn't like this before my A ... well, it seems he was!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 08:41 PM
Lady, you have some evaluations to do. What you've just discovered is one more item in the list of things you need to mull over. If OW#(X) {I've lost track of how many this is} tried to come home with him last year, then he's been in inappropriate relationships for about a year. That's one more piece of information you need to consider in the totality of all the things that have happened in that year, or perhaps even longer.

I still advise taking the evening off. TFC, making a decision right now, when your emotions are spiking, would not be in your best interests. Please, find that calm, prepared woman from yesterday morning and let her take over, okay? Can you give your best friend a call and vent a little?

Where's all this new information coming from all of a sudden, anyway? I'm afraid to ask what's coming next.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 08:45 PM
Quote
Where's all this new information coming from all of a sudden, anyway?
A good detective never reveals her sources! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There are more women than I care to count ...

At first, I thought there was no way he had been physical with ANY of them, but the more I know the more I'm concerned about the physical side. After all, if he was spending the night with OW, how do I know they didn't have SF? If he's mailing another girl's jewelry back to her, what does that say? If he's having lewd IMs with another, am I supposed to believe it was all in jest? If he's having himself photographed with another woman's breast in his face, am I supposed to assume it went no further?

He will not admit to any of it ... if I had to make a decision today, I'd be done.

I'm going to have a good cry on my way home from work. Scream and yell at the top of my lungs. That way, I'll have most of it out of my system by the time I get home.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 08:56 PM
Okay, you've got a good source, whatever it is. Too bad it's only now revealing the thing about last birthday, isn't it? Would that you could have nipped all this in the bud, as the saying goes.

BTW, he doesn't have to admit anything. Don't buy into the idea he has to admit the crime in order for it to be a fact. Remember, you're working to assure yourself of his NC, not preparing evidence for a trial. It's a fact if you find out about it, period.

Primal scream is good. Just check to make sure that's not a black and white car with cute little red and blue lights on top right beside you when you let loose, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 09:00 PM
Quote
Remember, you're working to assure yourself of his NC, not preparing evidence for a trial. It's a fact if you find out about it, period.
... you don't know my H!

Quote
Primal scream is good. Just check to make sure that's not a black and white car with cute little red and blue lights on top right beside you when you let loose, okay?
Oh yeah - I should prob stay away from those! LOL
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 09:04 PM
Hang in there, lady.
Posted By: medc Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/05/07 09:54 PM
TFC... if you continue the way you are going you will wind up divorced. You continue to poison your mind and your chances of recovery.
If there is an ACTIVE affair, deal with it through boundaries. Otherwise, the focus should be as JL has said. I will tell you that LH, while good at comforting, is NOT the person that I think will best lead you out of this stuff. ML and Pep are two good sources...Mrs W is another.
Just my 2 cents but I see you spending way too much time in anger and not enough in trying to move forward as JL pointed out.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Stress or another looming DDay? - 06/06/07 12:41 PM
Quote
Just my 2 cents but I see you spending way too much time in anger and not enough in trying to move forward as JL pointed out.

I understand. And I know that I need to reconcile all this ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good How can I find peace? - 06/06/07 12:52 PM
H was home last night. We were supposed to watch a movie together, but we didn't get the one we thought we were getting. So, he worked with headphones on while I watched the movie. I wasn't angry, just sad. Before bed I asked if I could talk to him about something to prevent going to bed upset. He stopped and listened. I explained that my feelings were hurt that he'd made a big deal about being home and then hardly said a word to me all night and worked with headphones on. He apologized, said he was just focused on getting that work finished. Then we discussed his travel schedule. I expressed concern about 1 place he was going b/c OW is there a lot. He blew it off.

This morning I woke up depressed, not angry, just depressed. I just started crying. I woke H and asked if we could talk for a second. I explained that I'm sad and lonely - that he doesn't even hug me anymore and that my feelings/concerns last night were minimized. He just said "sorry" and left the room. A few minutes later he told me that we'd talk about it ... but went on to talk about it.

He said that my snooping and lack of support (referring to my concern last night) are what's caused him to back off from me. I explained that I am still very supportive of his career but would occasionally need reassurance about situations like last night, where OW is concerned. He explained that he has no reassurance, no matter how hard I try I can't reassure him ... He then said that he knows I make a lot of sacrifices for the family and his career, but he makes them too. I stated that I know he does and I appreciate especially the ones he's been making lately. Then he said that he's sacrificed his manhood, dignity, and integrity.

He makes a good point.

We need MC ... BAD!!!
Posted By: medc Re: How can I find peace? - 06/06/07 01:51 PM
Quote
Then he said that he's sacrificed his manhood, dignity, and integrity.


Exactly! Very normal feelings.
Grace. Enjoy time when he is there....enjoy what he IS willing to give right now. Avoid love busters and demands....
You can win this battle but need to focus.... grace should be your operative word.
Every single day you are looking for things to feed your negativity. STOP. Enjoy what he IS willing to give right now. Everytime you find yourself wanting to be negative... think GRACE. Negative = NAGATIVE.... is is that attractive? Nope.
I warned you months ago about your continued snooping...it is doing you more harm than good at this point. You would do better to work with him.
I do not recommend calls to the Harley's like others do here....but spend the money and make the call. YOU need a game plan and you need it now.
GRACE.
GRACE.
GRACE.
You will win this only if you focus and stop with the daily self absorption into negativity.

Come on TFC... get hold of yourself and focus on the end result here.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: How can I find peace? - 06/06/07 03:13 PM
Quote
He makes a good point.

Are you buying in to the fog babble, TFC? He hasn’t sacrificed anything you aren't also sacrificing daily, if you want to give any credence to that comment. If either of you begins to think in terms of your dignity being sacrificed, Dr. Harley’s program for recovery has no possibility of succeeding. Words about a “sacrifice” of dignity, manhood (or womanhood), and integrity show a person still stuck in the anger step. (See: the five stages of grieving.)

Additionally, apparently in retaliation for what he perceives as his loss of honor, he’s keeping you in some kind of Purdah and refuses to be seen with you in public. Now you won’t be invited to his birthday party? That’s the most insulting thing I’ve seen a man do to a woman since I was last in Saudi Arabia, where every woman is a third-class citizen.

Lady, can you call for an appointment for counseling with Steve Harley? Please do. I think it would do you an immense amount of good. SH is a professional counselor and could help you find a personalized plan for recovery.

TFC, I think you should be careful to filter all the advice you’re getting out here through what you’ve learned in your reading of SAA and HNHN. This is Dr. Harley’s website, right? Don’t try to apply everything anyone, including me, tells you. It’s only advice based on our own experiences, plus a modicum of knowledge acquired from watching hundreds upon hundreds of threads here on MB.

TFC, there are some out here who post once to a person in need and then seldom come around again. I’m not sure that’s helpful. Often a comment is made without reviewing the whole history on that thread. Also, sadly, there are some people out here with hidden agendas. Beware of those who slam you with 2X4’s over and over again because of how this all began, then turn conciliatory and “helpful” for no apparent reason, TFC. Remember, this is Dr. Harley’s plan for recovery that everyone is supposed to be promoting.

My personal opinion is if you turn soft and pacifying, your husband will eat it all up without moving off his current position one bit. Please show me in Dr. Harley's words about Plan A where he recommends this. Do you perhaps need to review Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A?" What happened to your Plan A and 180, TFC?

Look, TFC, one of your WH's ENs is admiration. I even think he may be suffering from a mild form of narcissistic disorder. He loves the attention he gets from you and he supplements that attention with the adoration of all those young women out there. Second, as your best friend referred to a few weeks ago, suppressing who you really are may have been one of the key elements in your own affair.

Please evaluate where you are and where you want to go, TFC. Do you really believe becoming anything like a doormat is going to get your marriage into recovery? Or does your husband admire you when you “stand up for yourself?”

Being angry is wrong too, and I’ve been trying to help you calm down when your emotions peak…but you weren’t angry a couple of days ago, lady. You had made a calm decision to confront your WH, as you specifically referred to him, with his latest inappropriate behavior. What happened to that calm woman, TFC?

Again, since you’ve become confused and unhappy here on the website, please, please, please give the Harley’s a call. I think it may be the single most important thing you can do at this point.

As always, you have my prayers, TFC. Hang in there, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: How can I find peace? - 06/06/07 04:00 PM
I think I'm going to take a break from MB for a while ... maybe I'll call SH in the meantime. I clearly need to meditate on everything for a while without being influenced by others with multiple differing opinions. I am too vulnerable right now ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: How can I find peace? - 06/06/07 04:03 PM
Okay. Take your time, TFC. I'll be watching for you.

All the best,

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: How can I find peace? - 06/07/07 06:33 PM
Back, but only for a second ...

I am behaving in peace and kindness (most of the time). I am deflecting gaslighting well, and holding H accountable to his words and actions.

I am doing a great deal of contemplating on this M and will continue to do so. I'll be back ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: How can I find peace? - 06/08/07 04:58 PM
Still thinking on things ... but not obsessing over them. I'm finding joy in small things again and trying to live my life - with or without him. Still depressed, but not as much - keeping myself busy. Going to try to convince H to do MC. The latest? "We're a family partnership." So, we're dealing with this in different ways. Hence the need for MC.
Posted By: Just Learning Re: How can I find peace? - 06/08/07 06:07 PM
TFC,

Keep focusing on YOUR state of mind. Grace will carry you through many things. Please talk to SH and do take joy in the little things you will find they are the most important.

God Bless,

JL
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Finding peace ... - 06/09/07 09:41 PM
Today DD & I went to a public function with H for the first time since ATA (After The Affairs). It was a beautiful day and we had a great time! H still isn't planning on inviting me to his Bday party, though - I asked him to please stop discussing the party then, as it comes across as him rubbing it in my face. We have another month, so ...

Things are going more smoothly now that I've taken control of my radical emotions and starting meditating again. Grace gets me through - I am liking myself more because of it too.

I always thought that having grace meant sacrificing my boundaries ... but am learning just the opposite. I am proud of myself right now. I'm sure there will be a rough road ahead again soon, and am trying to prepare myself for it. Wish me luck ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/14/07 07:11 PM
LH - are you through with me? I've noticed that you haven't responded lately ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/14/07 07:26 PM
Nope, I'm not through at all...but I do have visitors again this week (two grandnieces and a grandnephew) and I've been a trifle preoccupied. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading here off and on, but there hasn't been much to say while you work things through in your mind. I'll be watching closer now that you're posting more.

Hang in there, lady. Things are going to work out, one way or the other.

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/20/07 11:49 PM
Hope you enjoyed your guests ... just checking in to say "hi" ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/21/07 01:41 AM
I did, thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How're things going?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/21/07 02:03 AM
They just are. Some days are good, most are bad. I'm just very unsure of things. I'm trying to work it all out in my head. I cried in therapy like a baby last week! It felt good to cry, I haven't really been able to lately. But of course after a bad depression spell, H started acting like a H again. I'm just never sure how long it will last ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 03:36 AM
Sorry to hear there are so many bad days. Perhaps it would be useful to simply re-read SAA?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 12:07 PM
It could be, but I doubt it ... at this point, I just have to decide if I'm willing to be in a marriage where my H says he loves me but acts otherwise. He doesn't want to change his behaviors, therefore I don't expect him to. I'm willing to do what it takes, he isn't. And if he is, he has a funny way of showing it. He says one thing, and his actions say another. I just don't know what to do. I don't want a D, but I don't want a M like this either. And there's no promise of things to come ... he won't say that he's committed to working things out! He said that he's riding it out to see how things go. Well, things don't change on their own - you have to actually do some work to get them where you want them!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 02:51 PM
Correct. With respect, your WH is sitting high on that fence of his and livin' large. I see only through your eyes, but I can't imagine him changing his behavior much beyond this point because he has no motivation to do so. Oh, there’ll be periods when he's considerate to you and perhaps even marginally affectionate, but I don’t think those behaviors will last much beyond the next trip to a place where some girl attracts his eye.

TFC, you’re doing as good a Plan A as you can do, but you can’t do it indefinitely. It hurts too much. You’re doing all you can to deposit to his LB and getting little or nothing in return. That will devastate you and your love for him in the long term.

Before that happens, Dr. Harley recommends implementing a Plan B to preserve the love, but Plan B will also prepare you for the possibility of a Plan D. TFC, that possibility must be faced because your WH is entrenching himself in a behavioral pattern that will eventually doom the marriage all by itself. From what you say, he’s actually been engaged in inappropriate conduct your whole marriage and I think it’s beginning to destroy you. I suspect a good counselor could find indications his neglect and disrespect was at the center of you seeking out another man to get your unfulfilled EN’s met.

TFC, Plan A works by itself only 15% of the time...and your husband doesn’t seem to be one of those who respond to only that plan. He loves his cake eating and isn’t going to stop without a good reason to do so. I also note you said you cried uncontrollably in your latest IC session, TFC. Without anything else to go on, I have to wonder if the pain isn’t beginning to overwhelm your love for WH. If that happens, you’ll turn from not wanting a divorce to working hard to get one, without having explored the possibilities of a Plan B.

When you’re ready, TFC...when you have things sorted out...tell us where you think you’ll be in six months to a year down the line. Where will you be if things continue the way they are...if you don’t do something about the situation? Then tell us what you think you need to do to look after yourself and your daughter.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 03:18 PM
Love bank is negative. He's out of town. Final straw was this morning when I found out a girl was seen getting into his car last night. I've packed his things for him.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 03:28 PM
<sigh>

I'm so sorry things have come to this point...and in this way, TFC. If you can, make this as good a Plan B as you did a Plan A, okay? Bounce ideas off us and MB folks will help you through this time.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 03:31 PM
I don't even know where to begin with Plan B ... and I honestly don't think it will do an ounce of good. He just wants to be this way, and I can't take it. Plan D may be the only way to go here.
Posted By: medc Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 03:45 PM
Frankly, LH has steered you dead wrong here TFC. You should have paid a lot more attention to the words of JL and ignored the words of a man that has a good portion of MB on ignore because they questioned his lousy methods.

I am sorry you are in this place. I would advise you to unpack the bags and stop being so reactionary. You are doing no one, including yourself, any good by being so quick to change course.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 03:57 PM
Quote
He just wants to be this way...

You'll never know if you don't do a Plan B.

You've made the decision for some kind of physical separation so there won't be any new pain, right? If you aren't sure, go for a jog or put on your boxing gloves and go pound that body bag for a while. When your emotions are securely under control, sit down and make a calm decision of whether you've done Plan A for long enough, with no return, or whether you can stand it for a little while longer.

If you've done Plan A long enough, for an option, how about just going dark with a good Plan B, instead of Plan D, to let WH see what living without his wife and child is like? He just might come around to a different point of view.

As for where to start in Plan B, begin with looking at what Dr. Harley recommends for a Plan B letter in SAA. Secure your finances today. Check with your attorney to find out what you need to do to ensure proper spousal support and child support from WH. Set up a plan for him to visit with your child. I think that would be enough for today.

I think you should gather your support group around you. Call your best friend and have a nice long conversation. See if your IC can talk with you. Hang in there, TFC. Things look gloomy right now, but the moment you begin to take positive steps, things begin to brighten.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 04:39 PM
Well, I didn't get MB on it ... I did it my way. He called for the umpteenth time and I finally answered. I told him I was done and this half-[censored], one foot in the door crap wasn't going to cut it anymore. I told him he needed to make a decision, and fast. I've proven for 6 months that I'll do what it takes to save this marriage, and he hasn't done 1 thing to show he will. He agreed. He suggested we go to MC to figure it out. I told him no - we either go into MC with the mindset that we are going to stay married no matter what and make this work, or we call it quits. He agreed the gray area was no longer acceptable and said "lets do it" to staying married. I told him that there would be a lot of things that needed to happen in order for this to work on BOTH our behalves. He agreed. Don't know what to do now, but maybe I should start by unpacking?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 04:50 PM
<chuckle> In the end, MB ways are always filtered through the person you are deep inside so no sweat on not doing it MB style.

Generally speaking, MC won't do any good while he's seeing another woman. What about your other boundaries?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 05:15 PM
He's not seeing anyone in particular - he just hangs out with other women too much and talks to them too personally. That is a boundary that will now be enforced like an orange-alert! I'm not going into MC unless there is a full-on commitment to drop this habit of his and tell these women that their conversations have been too personal. I'm also not going unless he man ups and takes my hand and walks me into his b-day party. Its time to show and tell everyone (especially each other) that we're gonna be married the right way! Most other boundaries have been met as of late. Of course the girls are the biggie!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 08:25 PM
I agree. If he wants to be married, he must start acting like it. Have you got his agreement with the prerequisites for MC?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 08:33 PM
I haven't told him yet what I'll expect should he choose to commit. He says he's ready to, but I suppose it would only be fair to discuss the parameters first? He says that he realizes that he has contributed enormously to the demise of our marriage. He said that he knew he needed to be the one to take the next step since I've worked so hard over the last 6 months. He recognized that my impatience today is a result of my anger & frustration with his lack of meeting any of my needs. So, he's saying the right things ...
Posted By: Orchid Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 08:48 PM
Quote
I haven't told him yet what I'll expect should he choose to commit. He says he's ready to, but I suppose it would only be fair to discuss the parameters first? He says that he realizes that he has contributed enormously to the demise of our marriage. He said that he knew he needed to be the one to take the next step since I've worked so hard over the last 6 months. He recognized that my impatience today is a result of my anger & frustration with his lack of meeting any of my needs. So, he's saying the right things ...

Yea...but actions show progress. Right now words are probably not enough, right? Don't settle for a little. Let him know the words sound good but action is now required to help you feel safe. Don't worry about ILY's. He needs to show it, not just say it. See how the level is raised? It should NOT be lowered. If he tries to get you t/b satisfied with only his words....he is playing you and you s/b angry. If he shows action make sure it is his best and not token service.

JMHO,
L.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 08:48 PM
Yes, you need to discuss particulars with him. He does seem to be saying the right things, but that's long distance, right? I'm concerned, based on prior posts you've made, that he's very good at placating you with good words from far away, but he seldom backs it up with action when he comes home. I think, if you agree with that assessment and if you’re truly sick of the way things have been going, it should be made clear that won't work this time.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 08:55 PM
I am in complete agreement! So do we wait until he gets back in town to discuss all this?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 09:03 PM
I think if you can talk with him on the phone about MC and about him getting enthusiastically on board with recovery, then you can discuss some of your conditions for that recovery with him also. There's a chance it might even come across better long distance. Sometimes I think he's better at communication if he doesn't have to be facing you at the moment.

You'll have to make the final determination though. If he's going to be handling explosives over the next few days, for instance, it might be best to not have anything except his job on his mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 09:19 PM
It is usually best to be able to have a clear head, but no - no explosives! LOL

I've just discussed some of my expectations with him, but not all. He was in agreement. So, the real question is if he'll follow through. THEN ... we'll sign up for MC. But I'm not wasting time or money on it until I have a 100% commitment from him.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 09:32 PM
Okay, then. But, TFC, if it's time to draw a line in the sand, then you have to stick with it. It does no good to retreat from a committment to getting rid of the other women and the disrespect. You're ready to make the stand, right?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 10:10 PM
Oh yeah - I've taken a SERIOUS stand. Its in or out.

We just talked and he said that we're good together but he's going to need us to go to MC to work through a couple of things. That's what I've been saying all along ... So, I'm glad he's on board! We'll see ... my expectations aren't high, as I've been disappointed too many times.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 10:17 PM
Okay, lady. Being cautious is appropriate with his track record. Your determination sounds good. Apparently, your WH reacts better to that than anything else. (Consider how he’s reacting today.) I think your best course is to be gracious, courteous, etc., but firm. Six months of Plan A is long enough and 'tis time to get on with fixing the things that need to be worked on and time for you both to begin healing.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 10:22 PM
Orchid - I get it! I think I expressed to him on the phone a bit ago that there need to now be actions to back up what he's spitting out. I think he sees that I'm serious and there's no joking going on here. Like I said - expectations are low at this point.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 10:25 PM
LH - Yeah, my H is the rebellious type, but once he realizes that you're serious, he straightens up. I'm staying firm here and refuse to budge on my boundaries from here on out. Hopefully he meant it when he said that he thinks we're good together and can get through all this with a little help.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 10:53 PM
Good. Sounds like you have a good handle on this.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 11:08 PM
Ha! We'll see ... I'm notorious for giving in to his gorgeous face the second he gets back home. But I'm trying not to this time. I am at my breaking point now, so I have no choice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Finding peace ... - 06/22/07 11:22 PM
Stay strong, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: What is wrong with me!?! - 06/23/07 01:41 PM
I had low expectations, but not THAT low. My H promised he would call or text last night and swore up & down he wouldn He't disappoint. Of course he didn't! When he realized that (which was at that point technically this morning) he sent this text:

Great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I mucked it up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Is he serious? I just replied with "Well, I'm glad you're so smiley about it". His response was about how much money he made and how great that was. I just said something like, "I'm glad that makes YOU feel better". He said it takes time. I said no, calls/texts are not something that you learn to do since he already knows how and uses it with plenty of other women, I expected him to follow through with his promise at least on this. So I called him (BIG MISTAKE) - he told me he was in the middle of typing a love letter text to send to me and he would send it in about 5 minutes. Then proceeded to inform me that he deserves better than I'm offering! I couldn't believe it! (MISTAKE #2) I should have - he's become mean and verbally abusive when drunk these days.

I just told him that I feel like he should want to talk to me without being asked or cajoled. I told him that I shouldn't always be told that I'm not good enough. He sent a text saying he was going to bed, instead of my love letter. I asked if that was the love letter, and he said "could've been". I told him that saying something kind to your wife isn't a pawn used in a game - it is serious and I am very hurt that he couldn't say one nice thing to me after not following through on his promise to me.

I was up crying from 3:30-5 this morning. I am so fed up - I don't deserve this. I am heartbroken ... there is nothing more I can do.
Posted By: medc Re: What is wrong with me!?! - 06/23/07 04:54 PM
not to beat a dead horse here... but you are driving this into a ditch.
grace has left the building in some of your dealings with him.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/24/07 01:06 AM
While I admit I probably could've handled it better, I remained calm in everything I said to him, no matter how much I wanted to yell and scream! I don't deserve to be abused verbally or emotionally, and I won't graciously accept that behavior. It was he who had no grace.

And he realized it this morning. He doesn't remember any of our conversation last night and admitted he had entirely too much to drink. He is committed to working on that and our M - according to his words. His actions today (as much as one can have long-distance) have proven as such. He asked if he could help find a MC, asked if we could set up an appt asap, and asked if he could go to church with us tomorrow.

He said that he is so ashamed and sorry he couldn't swallow his stubborn pride and tell me he loves me. He said I am too good to him and he doesn't deserve it. He said he is pushing back some work he had to do tomorrow to go with us to church.

So, we shall see what tomorrow brings ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/24/07 07:01 PM
I'm sorry I wasn't on line yesterday, MFC. I was out of town.

Don't worry about how you handled things when drunk WH called. I'm not sure there was a right way to handle it. Next time, I'd forgo calling him because it just doesn’t seem to be productive, and I’d hang up when he gets abusive. Preserve your boundaries.

I hope he got home today and went to church with you and your daughter. He’s got a lot of fence mending to do, and to his credit, he seems to have some kind of understanding of that necessity. I’ll be hoping today is a watershed in his behavior.

Hang tough, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/24/07 07:44 PM
He did go to church and is adamant about MC! So, tonight we are sitting down to discuss our schedules and a few different MCs in our area. His usual MO is to show change for 2-3 days and then go back to old behaviors and habits. So I'm hoping to get us into a session this week! We'll see though.

I shared with my H the 4 rules for recovery on MB. He wasn't so on board - he felt like it was more like faking it until you're brainwashed into doing it all the time. I explained that to me a M consists of doing those things anyway, so we agreed to discuss it later.

So, I don't think we're going to be using the Harleys for MC, which is ok. I just really want to find one that is similar in philosophy.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/24/07 08:58 PM
Find a good one, TFC...one who is well experienced and pro-marriage. Good work on convincing him to get to this stage.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/24/07 10:21 PM
We are going to "interview" a few this week to find the best fit. He asked if I was concerned that they would tell us there's no hope. I told him that as long as he & I have the mindset to work things out, then its up to us (not our MC) to make it work. That's why I had said that I wasn't wasting time or money in it if we weren't on the same page. He says we are. He even told me that there was a point when he had wished that we weren't "we" anymore ... but he doesn't feel that way now.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/25/07 05:56 PM
A certain amount of wariness is completely justified until he proves himself. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Stay strong, lady.

LH
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/26/07 04:51 PM
Hmmmmmmmm.

Now why is my 25Jun07, 1256, post showing up on the main screen as "26Jun07, at 1138 hrs?" Someone's playing with the server? Strange days indeed!
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/26/07 05:51 PM
Its my fault! I posted something and then deleted it ... LOL~
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/26/07 06:46 PM
Oh? That's still a curious way for a server to process information. No matter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/26/07 06:56 PM

Well, H picked a therapist ... I picked 3 and he chose the one he thought would be best. We have an appt this Friday. Luckily I have one with my IC right before it, so I can work out some things before going.

So, now what do I do?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/26/07 09:39 PM
I think you prepare yourself for the MC by going over the things you need to happen for recovery...i.e., the things Dr. Harley recommends in SAA. Review the "Four Rules To Guide Marital Recovery" he sets out, beginning on page 87 in that text. You have boundaries and you want to be included on family decisions rather than him announcing them to you. In other words, POJA should be the rule.

Also, I think you should also prepare yourself for your WH to use at least the initial sessions to unload a lot of frustration and pain. Remember, your marriage has not even slightly recovered from your affair and the reasons for it may need to be resolved before you, as a couple, can begin working on the issues relating to his.

Hang in there through the anger. You've done very well just to get him to agree to MC. Stay patient through the first few encounters and I think you'll be well rewarded in the end.

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 01:25 AM
I must admit to being nervous. There are so many things to resolve, and I know that the first session won't resolve much. I need to re-examine my boundaries ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 01:58 AM
The first session is generally a "get to know each other" thing. The MC may ask you to complete some questionnaires to get back to him or her and have some quiet conversation with you two to determine where you both stand on some key issues. Be ready for some very searching questions. Prepare yourself by knowing what you want from the counseling and from the marriage.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 02:27 AM
So, I'm making a list of what I think we need to work on (in no particular order), let me know if you think there's anything I should add or delete:


Opposite sex friendships
Undivided attention
Pornography vs. sex
Banding together to create an unbreakable team
Opening up – more conversation
Career influences on personal life
Cohesive planning – lack of independent behaviors
Prioritizing – marriage first
Complementing one another
Building trust
Listening
Creating new memories to replace tainted ones
Giving/Taking
Financial honesty
Policy of Joint Agreement
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 05:22 PM
Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything to add and the ones you've listed will surely be plenty to get the ball rolling. More items will come to the surface as you get more involved in the process.

Have you noticed how many of the things on your list could be grouped under a general heading of "better communication?"
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 06:30 PM
Yes ... that has always been a problem with us! Trust is another one that several can be lumped into. Basically, we need to get our M on the same page! LOL
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 06:51 PM
Yep. And the open forum a good MC will set up can facilitate that.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 07:20 PM
OW may be at a function we are going to tonight ... this will be my first non-family (meaning kids allowed) function in 6 months! H told me he thought she might come to try to make him jealous ... which won't work. He said it will be very uncomfortable having her there and that we needn't plan on speaking to her (like I was gonna!). I told him that I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving early if she was there, he said he understood. But he never said he'd leave with me ... which is what I would've preferred. This isn't something I thought would come up anytime soon. Any suggestions?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 08:04 PM
Frankly, just don't leave the event, however boring and tedious it might become. You haven't been to your first MC session and it hasn't occurred to your WH yet that HE needs to think about such things. It's an illustration of several of your points above to bring up with your MC.

I wouldn't bother confronting her. It's been my experience such confrontations seldom accomplish anything and can too easily descend into unpleasantness for all concerned. She already knows she did wrong, and did it knowing WH was married. She has no sense of honor or integrity and you're not going to be able to instill any in her. That you're there with your husband and smiling in your happiness will send a far stronger message to OW than any words you could devise.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 08:11 PM
I never had any intentions of speaking to her or trying to teach her what she did wrong. My H says she's told mutual friends that she was just being a good friend (wow!) and can't believe he would be so weak as to get sucked back into a manipulative and destructive relationship. Considering she doesn't know me hardly at all, nor does she know anything about my M (pre- or post- affiar), and that she thinks married men spend the night with their female "friends" - I figured it would be useless to talk to her. Besides that, I just don't have anything nice to say - and my mom always said to keep my mouth shut if I didn't have anything nice to say to strangers.

Just talked to my H. It has been planned that I will leave early to get DD from the sitter while he stays out with friends. He concluded that IF she is there, he will leave when I do to go elsewhere. Decent compromise, right?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/27/07 11:19 PM
Sounds good to me. POJA-like, even.

And mom was right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/28/07 06:45 PM
Thank goodness she didn't show up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But it was a little awkward being out. And its weird that I won't be at his b-day event ... but oh well. Things are just weird right now I suppose.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/28/07 07:00 PM
Take it one day at a time, TFC. Tomorrow should be a very interesting day.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/28/07 07:10 PM
Its been awful hard to keep going like this ... I am sick of feeling like things are hopeless. But I know that he's trying and the efforts that are being made are HUGE compared to before. It just sucks b/c he has a "we'll see" attitude and I wanted to go into MC with a "we'll make it work no matter what" attitude. Maybe one day we'll be on the same page ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/29/07 10:46 PM
We had MC today. It went well and we both like the doc. So, we've set up our next 2 appointments. Wish us luck!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 06/29/07 11:43 PM
Outstanding! My thoughts are with you and your husband.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/01/07 02:11 PM
Thanks ... we need all the thoughts and prayers we can get! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now that we are finally on the actual road to recovery things are improving. Slowly but surely. And the more time we spend together, the better. H won't be traveling as much this month, so we've planned a good bit of time together and then next month DD & I are meeting up with him for a vacation! YAY!

So, since things are getting better and I've been seen at 1 public function, do I push my luck and ask about the b-day event too? Or do I just shut-up and let him ask me if he wants me there?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/01/07 11:20 PM
If you've been going to those events in past years, I would ask, or bring it up in MC. When's your next session?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/02/07 01:03 PM
I have always gone to these events, until about 6 mos ago. There have been a couple of pretty major events I've missed and we didn't spend our anniversary together. So, missing this too would be a big deal to me ... especially since we're trying to revive this M. Or I could try to see it as just another event missed due to the consequences of my A. (I guess his A has no consequences since it was retaliatory?)

Our next session isn't until after the event, and I didn't think it wasn't particularly appropriate to bring it up in our 1st session. But basically, for me, not being invited would be a HUGE setback in our recovery. It is my belief and opinion that if we are going to pull through this together, we should be doing things like this together. Am I off-base?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/02/07 04:28 PM
I don't think you're not off base at all. If you accept it without protest, you're cooperating with your husband's attempts to isolate you -- to put you off to one side -- while he immerses himself in a single lifestyle. Now...if he's planning it as a "guys only" party of some kind, and if he’s excluding all the wives/girlfriends of the other men invited, then I could see it. (I don't know how something like that would go -- it couldn't be a "bachelor party" kind of thing for it to be acceptable, but perhaps we need more information?)
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/02/07 07:48 PM
Nope - its no all-male thing ... its an invite everyone he's ever known thing ... except the wife. And he's not budging on it!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/02/07 10:50 PM
More input needed. Perhaps this is a good time to do another thread on this one specific issue? Frankly, I'm the confrontational sort. Were I you, I'd go anyway and let him deal with it.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/03/07 12:06 AM
Yeah - I'm hesitant to ask for help on a new thread again.

I thought about going anyway, but then I'd just be ignored in public. I want us to re-establish our presence as a couple at this party, but if he doesn't then I'll just be embarrassed. Make sense?
Posted By: medc Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/03/07 12:20 AM
my opinion is that you should bring it up in counseling. He may be embarassed to bring you...heck, others may not even know that he is trying to work things out with you.
bottom line is, he doesn't have to let you be there... BUT if he is truly committed to making this work, you should be invited.

MEDC
Posted By: medc Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/03/07 12:24 AM
if you "just go anyway" that will likely be a huge LB and could set your recovery back to zero. It is his party and it is his choice to have you there or not.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Actions speak louder than words! - 07/03/07 12:45 AM
I thought about going anyway - but I wouldn't dare. I realize its his choice to have me there or not, but I just think that if he's serious about recovery I should be. But you're right, it is his choice.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good On a different note: - 07/03/07 12:57 AM
He swears his A never got physical, but he spent the night with her on several occasions.

My problem is that I don't believe him ... I don't believe for a second that it never got physical. I have this strange gut feeling that it didn't remain an EA only.

Is this something that I have to accept that I just may never know?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/03/07 03:38 AM
I think it's something he may not admit right now. Were I you, I'd save it for discussion when recovery is more advanced and perhaps in front of the MC.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/03/07 08:07 PM
We need MC like every day right now - LOL! There is so much going on that I can't even talk about on here! I am almost out of love and I want it back! I don't know what to do ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/03/07 08:38 PM
Things are happening that tend to make you think WH isn't using MC for recovering, but to use as a later validation of something else?

When is the next MC session?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/03/07 08:48 PM
We aren't going to MC every day, but I wish we were - that's what I meant. And by "so much going on right now", I meant that there are so many things I'm finding out each and every day that I can't even mention here. And they're recent ... and I'm just so drained.

Next MC is him alone and then me alone - in 2 weeks! (Our MC is on vacation - dammit!)
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/05/07 02:55 PM
I don't know what to say, TFC. Are these things your husband is confessing to you or events he's kept secret and you're getting word of them through other sources?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/05/07 03:18 PM
He's kept it all secret, but I'm finding out anyway. He said the other day that I should become a private detective. Probably true. He doesn't really fess up to much - he twists and turns it all to make it out like its nothing and that I'm overreacting (which I don't think I am).

I've thought it out quite a bit. Here's something I want to work out in MC:
He has 1 location, 1 man to have negative feelings/thoughts about ... I have almost the entire SE United States + California to worry about.

I'm not saying ones worse than the other, I'm just saying that I think I'm going to have a hard time getting past all that!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/05/07 04:45 PM
Quote
he twists and turns it all to make it out like its nothing and that I'm overreacting

That's classic gaslighting.

Quote
I'm just saying that I think I'm going to have a hard time getting past all that

This is a very important thing to work out in MC. Frankly, I think it's something your WH needs to hear from you in a deadly serious tone of voice. BTW, have you ever asked him if he has any idea why you had an affair?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/05/07 07:54 PM
We've discussed the reasons for my affair, but he's really only heard bits and pieces of it. He thinks I've blamed him for my A. When I spoke with SH, we discussed the appropriate way to discuss my A with him, and I've followed his advice to the letter. I wanted to be sure that my H didn't think I was blaming him for my choices. But he thinks that anyway - he basically only heard that my needs weren't met and didn't really listen to anything before or after that.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/06/07 01:15 AM
What a pity. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He runs away from the one realization that would do him the most good. Was there anything in what SH said regarding a plan to get WH to sit down and do some deep introspection?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/06/07 03:33 PM
At the time we met with SH, H was completely tuned out ... remember he was texting OW the entire session? So, now maybe our new MC can help. But I'm not certain of that either.

Yesterday, I got a "bye, love you" on the phone for the first time in over 6 months! It was great! However, that was in the afternoon. At night, I got this whole thing about how he was already sick of trying at this M (its been around a week) and that he knows he should want me at his b-day, but he really doesn't b/c he can't be himself around me (not sure why). That what we have isn't a M. (I agree.) I told him that from my POV, it seems like what he wants from a M is someone who will sit back and not say anything about anything - just take care of the house and kid and accept what affection she's given whenever it comes her way. He agreed that that may very well be his idea of M - and I told him that he wasn't likely to find that anywhere, women need affection and respect ... it just isn't a M to never get anything in return.

How do you go from "love you" to "I don't see how this will ever work, I'm happier without you" in 1 day? Which is it? Do you love me or do you not want to be with me? He thinks that I expect him to "get over it" - I've explained on so many different occasions that I don't! The only thing I've asked is that he try ... and well, he's sick of trying after 6 days!!!!

I think we're doomed ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/06/07 04:41 PM
I think "being himself" includes being free to chat up all the available young women and develop inappropriate relationships with them, whether it descends into a physical relationship or not. It’s back to “being married but acting single.” I suspect you’re finding out things about his recent conduct (that you don’t want to discuss here at MB) that tend to confirm that analysis and that’s why you’re in such a gloomy state of mind.

He can go from affectionate to hateful in a single afternoon because he’s been in contact with another of those young women, whether it's a new OW or any of the others he’s been in contact with in the past. It’s fairly typical to see a radical change of mood like that when they get a “fix” of contact with an OW. His mood may change again this evening. You seem to have stood up for yourself and he seems to react to that by becoming conciliatory.

I’m becoming more and more convinced he’s never been out of contact with some OW, TFC, and I think MC is the only hope to fix this thing. Hang in there, if you possibly can until your MC returns.

If you can’t, your Plan A was better than most and I believe a good, dark Plan B will be that much more effective because of the work you did in Plan A.

Stay strong, TFC.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/07/07 03:24 PM
Quote
He can go from affectionate to hateful in a single afternoon because he’s been in contact with another of those young women, whether it's a new OW or any of the others he’s been in contact with in the past. It’s fairly typical to see a radical change of mood like that when they get a “fix” of contact with an OW.

I know for sure it isn't the old OW, or any others he was talking to before. Its a whole new set of them. I asked him about "being himself" involving women - chatting them up, flirting with them, exchanging phone numbers, etc. He claims it has nothing to do with that (yeah right).

Last night he was uber-affectionate and kind. He apologized for saying all those things the night before. I told him that I wasn't going to bed feeling that unloved anymore - it has happened all too much and I won't take it anymore.

My best friend and I have discussed this at great length: When he's in town and with me, he's making a great effort. When he's out of town and in party-mode, he's hateful and verbally abusive. This leaves a couple of options ... (1) He's on drugs; (2) he has an alcohol problem; (3) he's addicted to the attention from other women; (4) all the above.

I feel bad that I don't particularly blow up his ego anymore, I know that's something a man needs from his wife. But he's getting it blown up all over the US, and I feel like its getting out of control. We've always had a rule that at home he's a regular guy - a husband and a father. And I enforce that rule big time! I have been sure to complement when he's being a good husband or father, but I don't say anything about his career anymore. Matter of fact, I prefer not to discuss it at all anymore. I used to play such a big role in his decision-making and planning for his career. But now, he doesn't want me to be any part of it, except to be encouraging. While I am supportive, I feel like a lot of the time he goes out of his way to throw in my face that I am not "allowed" to participate anymore.

Am I making sense?

I'm looking forward to our next MC session ... its me alone with the MC. I've been making notes of things to discuss. Hopefully I can fit most of it into the hour! LOL
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/07/07 09:25 PM
Making sense? You bet you are. I don't know how long it's been going on, but I think WH has been systematically putting fences between you and the rest of his life for a while now. I don’t know if the compartmentalization began before your affair or not, but I strongly suspect it started quite a while before you became aware of it on a conscious level.

I was pretty sure he was going to be conciliatory yesterday evening. It’s a behavioral pattern of his and he’s fairly predictable in that area. You and your best friend have nailed it on his attitudes when he’s close to you and when he’s on the road. I pick option (3) as the primary problem, but (1) and (2) may be contributing to the difficulties. Were I you, I’d search the web for the signs of drug addiction (including alcoholism) and see if they match.

Getting the issue of compartmentalization, as a symptom of his inappropriate behavior, into the discussion with your MB is critical, I think. WH’s holding himself aloof from you, and the marriage, is extraordinarily destructive and something/someone must get that through to him…and soon.

Hang in there, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/09/07 11:28 PM
Apparently the the compartmentalization began a while ago ... there was the illusion that it wasn't going on, but as I've found out that wasn't true. For instance, the 1st girl I was worried about (out of town) - apparently they'd been friends since September 2006 (before my A) and I never knew. The OW here in town, the one he def had an A with, she's been emailing him and stuff for over a year. So, I've realized that our M was even worse than I had originally thought! Its not a fun realization, but at least I can understand some things a little better because of finding all this out.

This weekend was good - we're getting along really well. But this is the big bday week and I know things could get really rocky here soon. I still don't know about going to the bday bash. I was invited once again, but he doesn't want me there so I think maybe its best to stay home.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/10/07 06:06 PM
Well, again, I'm the kind of person who would meet something like this head on. I'd go to that birthday party and let him deal with it. What does your best friend say about it?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/10/07 07:06 PM
Well, we are of the same opinion ... H has painted a really ugly picture of me over the last 6 months and I will have to fight that stigma pretty hard. Showing up, unwanted, will be a great way to publicly humiliate myself and prove at least some of the picture to be truthful. Since I'm not into getting embarrassed or being a ******, its best that I not go. Sunday I will have an opportunity to prove all that wrong when we make a family appearance at a function where OW will almost definitely be present ... it is a MAJOR social function, so it is probably a better opportunity anyway.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/10/07 08:51 PM
*** (deleted) *** He hasn't bothered to tell her he's MARRIED!!! Wouldn't there have been plenty of opportunities to tell her??? *** (deleted) ***

Nothing is really changing here ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/11/07 02:27 AM
Yeah, like I've said, I'm given to confrontation at times, perhaps overly so. Your way is probably best.

Are there any signs at all WH is trying to give up his "single" ways?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/11/07 12:46 PM
Yes and no.

For instance, this girl gave him her phone number and asked him to text her, and he hasn't ... but he also hasn't bothered to let her know that her advances are to a married man that isn't interested. Perhaps he is? Not sure.

There are a lot of signs that things are better in the "bachelor" department, but then there's stuff like this. I wouldn't know about it if I weren't checking up on him, but is that really a good thing? I don't think it is.

I spent last night reviewing parts of SAA, HNHN, FILSIL, and Not "Just Friends" ... I made a list of all the things that I would like for us discuss/negotiate for recovery. I am going to take the list with me to my 1-on-1 with our MC so that I can make the most of my time there.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/11/07 05:02 PM
Until he's willing to commit to radical honesty, snooping is entirely justified. You have a right to know what is going on.

I think it’s a good idea to make that list of issues. You may not get to all of them in the next session, but you’ll know what direction you want to go. Let the MC know you have the list and show it to him/her.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/11/07 08:36 PM
I am so tired and trying not to give up. I'm finding myself annoyed at him a lot and not very supportive of his career (which isn't at all like me). I am trying hard not to give in to the feelings of lovelessness ... what on earth can I do until our next MC session to retain some love???
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/12/07 02:24 PM
Hard question to answer, TFC. You've been dealing with this for a long time and it's beginning to show. The quick answer is to get your Plan B ready to implement. Plan B is designed to preserve what love can be retained and not suffer any further debilitation. It’s a refuge from exactly what you’re feeling now. On the other hand, the struggle has been to get him to agree to MC and one would think you need to give that some time to work, if WH is actually participating in good faith. A puzzle indeed.

I don’t see an easy answer. If you can, keep on with your modified Plan A, but I would concentrate on keeping your boundaries intact and doing 180 wherever you see fit. In a sense, I think letting WH get even more of a glimpse of the fact that you are losing patience can be a good thing. I think that’s part and parcel of the 180 concept and may work to your advantage because I believe your WH is a master manipulator. When he sees his manipulations aren’t working, he scrambles to placate you.

Where you can, do things that take your mind off this situation. Physical activity, perhaps a trip with your best friend to (wherever) for (whatever reason) can be good. Change your routine, mix it up, anything you can do to revitalize yourself is a thing you should do.

The whole point is to get just that little extra time where you can be patient enough to give MC a chance. I think that is the best you can do while you wait for a few more MC sessions.

That having been said, TFC, if you keep discovering new OW and you continue to experience a continued lack of respect for you and the marriage from your WH, your love is going to die a hard death. Before that happens, please think of how you can pull the trigger on Plan B. Be ready, keep the plan on the back burner, but begin to think of how you would apply it.

Hang tough, lady.
Posted By: medc Re: On a different note: - 07/12/07 02:49 PM
if you are discovering continued new OW...it is NOT time for Plan B...it is time for Plan FU... lay into him, full force and do not tolerate this any longer.
Plan FU has its uses around here and I think it is most definitely called for in this case now.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/12/07 07:22 PM
I cannot do a "Plan B" - MB techniques only somewhat work with my H. "Plan FU" sounds amusing ...

Basically, he is only ready and willing to commit a little bit ... and he says he needs time before he can just start making these huge changes left and right. I recognize that it must be difficult to give up all the fun he's been having and be serious about a crappy marriage, but I also recognize that we are going to fail at this if he doesn't man up and just deal. (Is that a LB?)

Oh, and last night, he point-blank told me that he doesn't feel the least bit sorry for his behaviors over the last 6 months ... he doesn't feel bad, guilty, or sorry. Nice. Except that he started these behaviors BEFORE my A ... so what's the excuse for the months prior to the last 6 (almost 7)???

Tonight's the big bday bash ... I'll be keeping myself busy. I have a movie to watch, laundry to do, a wonderful DD to play with. I didn't say a word to him about what time he's coming home tonight or anything (if he follows suit with his usual, it'll be around 5am - fun!). And I have IC tomorrow a.m. - he's promised to be up by 10am to be with DD while I have that (which reminds me, I need to call my parents as a back-up sitter).
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/12/07 09:52 PM
Plan B isn't for the benefit of the WS. It's for you.

No, I don't think recognizing he's not putting very much effort into this (and where it will lead if it continues) is an LB. It's just being realistic.

Remember, you can't change his mind. He must change it himself. I hope he does, but I see very little sign of it. So much brazen disrespect and callous manipulation...

I keep thinking there's something below the surface—a hidden agenda that hasn't played out yet.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/12/07 11:43 PM
I think the hidden agenda is just his own ego and convenience.

It hurts so bad that not only doesn't he care what he's been like over the last 6-7 months (or more), but he supposedly is "trying" and we are "friends" and "meant to be together", but doesn't want me at his bday party. And he knows he's being selfish - he said so - and still doesn't take the appropriate steps to make the effort. He just wants to wait until our next MC session to talk about this stuff or take strides in any direction (other than up his own rear-end) - that was mean, sorry.

I realize that Plan B is to protect myself and my love for him, but I'm afraid that if I did Plan B I wouldn't have any love left and it would really be over. I just want to try - I really can see this working, if he will make a little more effort. I even recognize that I haven't been trying as hard over the last week or so ... and I admitted that to him and apologized for it.

I want our life together to be as important to him as his career ... is that too much to ask???
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/13/07 02:32 AM
No, it's certainly not too much to ask. It's something you deserve from your partner in marriage.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/13/07 02:35 AM
You said before that I can't change his mind ... and I know that. But he has to want to ... I know that too. He seems wanting to change in some ways, but hesitant in many others. But the career comes first and a lot of the behaviors are blamed on the job ...

I am really hoping that we can settle some things in MC. But nothing is happening fast, that's for sure. Neither of us are patient people and we both want to solve things fast. Which means that we need to be going to MC a lot more frequently!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/13/07 08:31 PM
I can see where patience is a short commodity in your life these days. Anything you can do to lower your blood pressure and anxiety would be a good thing. Perhaps you could approach the MC with a request for additional sessions, or longer ones?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/18/07 03:36 PM
How're things going, TFC?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/19/07 12:58 AM
Its amazing what a difference a week makes when he really wants things to work ...

My H is back! He is a HUSBAND again! He is trying harder than ever before at making things work. "I love you" has come back into the picture (though not as often) and so have kisses, hugs, flirting, etc. We are FRIENDS again! He is making serious changes right now - he wants to quit partying so much to be a better H and father; he wants to "grow up" (his words); he wants our M! He even said that we belong together. And all evidence supports his new ways! So far, so good.

There are still a LOT of issues to work out, but it seems much easier when things are better in the M.
Posted By: believer Re: On a different note: - 07/19/07 01:35 AM
That is good to hear. What do you think brought on the sudden change?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/19/07 04:47 PM
Besides the OW making a complete idiot of herself and saying ugly things about my H? Seriously, she has really made herself look bad, and I have handled it with grace and dignity - gently taking my H side without really name-calling (well, maybe one or two, but not too mean). He's also spent more time at home and with me, so I think in a way he sees that when he puts in a little effort he gets a WHOLE LOT back from all of us (DD is especially loving to him when he puts time into the M). And he suggested the MC - I think that he had to be the one to bring it up, to want to fix things, to realize that what we have is bigger than all the mess we've created ... he just had to open his eyes and spend some time at home to get it. It may not have all happened the MB way, but my H has never been good about going by the book - LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have our individual therapy sessions with MC today and tomorrow. He jokingly said, "Are you sure you want to go? We've been doing so good, I'd hate to mess that up!" But obviously, we're keeping our sessions as planned. Since the basics of friendship and kindness are back, we can now focus on fixing the bigger problems and creating a stronger marriage!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/19/07 05:30 PM
Excellent news, TFC. Keep up the good work.

Actually, I think you've used MB all along (in particular, using Pepperband's Plan A procedures, and a judicious application of 180 techniques) to help you deal with this whole thing. You set your boundaries and enforced them, increasing your WH’s respect for you. Respect is always a good thing, and the lack thereof leads to poor choices by both partners, does it not? At the same time, you made yourself into a more satisfactory option by avoiding LBs and by being the alert, intelligent, attractive woman he married. In other words, you met his ENs a lot better than any of the OW ever could. Is that not part and parcel of Dr. Harley’s program?

The result has been the creation of stress in the fantasy world and made your WH understand it's you he needs to be with. Put another way, your application of Plan A forced the OW into a situation where she couldn’t help herself but strike out. Her LBs generated pressure and resulted in cracks in the fantasy. After that, the other side of Plan A (making your WH see how good a spouse you are) made his reaction all but inevitable.

What part of MB principles do you not see at work in your husband’s turnaround? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/19/07 06:58 PM
I suppose you are right ... I got blasted a lot on here for not being patient enough or following the MB principles to the letter. I am just glad that he came around ... I suppose that's all I can say!

I always knew that I was a better option for him than any OW, but he had to see that - I suppose I did a decent-enough job of showing him.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/19/07 07:40 PM
MB principles aren't a straight jacket. They're guides to help you focus on what you need to do. Patience? Hmmmmmmm Yeah, that might be something you could work on. (On the other hand, couldn't we all?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, you did show him. It seems to me you’re being unduly critical of yourself. My goodness, don't look for perfection in such things. What you're going through is highly volatile because of the intense emotions involved. Every step you took in the minefield getting to this point had the potential for something to blow up in your face and a few missteps aren't critical in the long term. I think you’ve done pretty darn well. Keep up the good work and be ready for a step backward from time to time, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: On a different note: - 07/20/07 12:40 AM
I thought after his individual session with the MC today, we'd have a setback for sure ... but not at all! I was excited to see that he used his time to get the things out that he needed to, but didn't let them affect us at home. I'm trying to be prepared for one soon, but it I have to admit it will be hard to deal with one after such a great week!

Thanks for checking in on me ... I'll keep you posted! (Keep your fingers crossed for us!)
Posted By: Longhorn Re: On a different note: - 07/20/07 12:50 AM
I've got my fingers crossed, and even my eyes too for y'all, TFC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good MC 101 - 07/23/07 04:38 PM
Well, I met with our MC individually last week, H did as well. I've been in IC for almost 7 months figuring through all this and working on myself. After about 30 mins with MC Q&A re: my affair, our MC looks at me and says "Well, this seems to be basic Mars & Venus stuff ..." Don't quite know what to make of that.

But the good news is that my H is a better H now than ever before ... we are both really trying at this and I am sooooooo happy. The upcoming vacation should help matters too. And we're even planning a date night soon! YAY!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: MC 101 - 07/23/07 11:04 PM
Remind your MC the writer of that "Men Are From Mars...etc.," stuff has been exposed pretty much as a fraud. Apparently, the college he graduated from is one of those that you can get a diploma from by mailing in a check of suitable size. See more information HERE .

You're making good progress. Kudos, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: MC 101 - 07/25/07 12:36 AM
He's really good so far (the MC) ... but that comment pretty much pissed me off. I didn't cheat on my husband over Mars vs. Venus stuff - I didn't keep boundaries up when I was vulnerable due to a lack of affection and attention at home. I know it isn't "average" to feel like your H doesn't even love you ...

Our next session is a couple of weeks off - which is fine by me. We've been getting along really well, working on the M, communicating more and better, and the "I love you" is back in our M. So, we have about a week and a half and then we're on vacation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H wants to replace his wedding band with a new one ... but wants to wait until it really means something. He jokingly suggested while we were on vacation, but I think it might be a good idea to wait until he's really ready. We'll see!

Things are certainly much better, that's about all I could hope for!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: MC 101 - 07/25/07 04:06 PM
Excellent. Good to hear he's finally committed.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: MC 101 - 07/30/07 06:45 PM
Time to check in, lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How're things going?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: MC 101 - 08/01/07 08:13 PM
Phenomenal! I have not one complaint ... this is the marriage that I always wanted! We are falling in love again, working hard at EVERY aspect of the marriage, and putting our marriage first. There is honesty and kindness, love and concern, time and attention. The "I love you" and "Thank you" is prevalent and plentiful!

We still have plenty of issues to work through, but its a helluva lot easier when there is such a great feeling attached to the future of the marriage.

We are looking forward to vacation starting Saturday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Longhorn Re: MC 101 - 08/01/07 08:34 PM
Excellent! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: MC 101 - 08/02/07 02:05 AM
Isn't that exciting? I can't believe we're finally at this point after how this year started off! It took over 6 months to bring him around, but he's here and better than ever!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: MC 101 - 08/02/07 02:10 AM
That's great, lady. So very glad it's working out.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: MC 101 - 08/10/07 11:29 PM
We just got back from a great vacation! Couldn't be happier! We've gotten along fabulously and had the best time! This vacation might rank up there with our wedding/honeymoon! Don't know what else I can say, but YAY!

Hope y'all are doing well too!
Posted By: Longhorn Re: MC 101 - 08/13/07 04:44 PM
Excellent news, lady. So very glad to hear it. Sorry for not responding earlier but I was away on a camping trip myself.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/08/07 02:36 PM
So, the last couple of month have been going pretty good. We communicate much better and are more open to suggestions from one another. I am proud to say that I don't think I'm always right anymore, and I apologize when I know I'm wrong or have hurt his feelings (something that rarely ever happened before). He's made great strides and I'm proud of how far we've come. We've been doing great, with very few exceptions. Those exceptions are what bring me back here ...

The other day, he changed all his passwords! To me that means he's hiding something. To him it means he was tired of me being nosy and wanted privacy. It bothers me a lot. And it bothers me even more knowing that he added an ex-girlfriend to his page on one of those networking sites without telling me. Granted she's married now, but still ... its a breeding ground for an affair!

He still isn't wearing a wedding band. I asked him about it last night, and he had the right answer (as usual) but probably won't follow through. I'd believe that he would follow through had we not already had this discussion a couple of times and there have been no indications of follow through thus far.

And he's back to traveling a lot, which is fine. But before he started up again, we talked about what I needed while he was gone so that I felt important and loved instead of neglected. We talked about it and I gave very direct examples of what I would like. Its not much, and they aren't way-out, off-the-wall things. Yet he doesn't do them. I'm not sure if its that he doesn't care, or if he just forgets. Either way, its not a good sign to me.

So I'm a little lost right now, and really questioning some things. I want to be married to this man so badly, but I want it to be a marriage that makes both of us happy. Right now, I'm lonely all over again.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 01:44 AM
Welcome back to your MB home, TFC. I'm sorry to see your husband slipping back into his wandering habits.

I'm not sure how much progress you two have made with MC, or with the concepts in the second half of SAA. Can you comment on those? Seems to me hubby has gotten over a shock to his system and may now be withdrawing again to a place where he doesn't feel he has to extend himself in the marriage. When he's on the road, he believes it's okay to act as if he's free from his responsibilities? Very sad.

Stay strong, TFC.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 03:59 AM
We haven't made as much progress as I would like. As much as he travels it has been difficult, but we have an appt this week or next. I just don't know if I have it in me to keep fighting. I'm tired. And I'm sick of knowing he's hiding things from me. He's not going to fully commit and I can't live with that.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 02:18 PM
On the one hand, I think I could move forward a little easier just hearing him finally admit that he was physical with the OW and apologizing for it. I've even thought of just asking her, as she has nothing to lose or gain, but ...

One thing our MC is largely against is what he calls "contingency marriage" ... an "I'll do this if you do that" kind of thing. Its great, in theory, but difficult sometimes. But, maybe this is what I've been doing? "I'll ease up and feel more loved if you'll just [xyz]." I don't know. Maybe its best for me to just give in, stop being so stubborn about having our marriage go the way I want it to, and then maybe things will be better. Maybe if I just give in to everything he'll follow suit and eventually I'll get what I need?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 05:06 PM
I believe that's the same philosophy Neville Chamberlain used with Adolph Hitler in 1938. It was okay for a while, but it cost everyone badly in the end. I don’t know about this contingency marriage thing. I agree both parties should commit unconditionally, but it appears your husband isn’t coming to the table with anything approaching that kind of dedication. Perhaps your MC would be so kind as to outline for you which of the directions you want your marriage to go is out of line with what other marriages have going for them?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 05:13 PM
I truly believe that with a simple, sincere apology for his A I could move forward. If I could know that he was truly sorry for his behavior then I could feel like our M was more important to him than anything. But right now, I feel like he isn't owning up to it or apologizing for it b/c he still has the upper hand right now. I just don't know how much more I can do and invest without seeing his loyalty to this M.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 05:35 PM
If I remember correctly, Dr. Harley warns betrayed spouses in SAA that they may never get an apology. I recall any number of threads out here where that prediction has been shown to be very accurate. You may have to look for an apology in his "body language" (his actions) more than you do his words.

He has the upper hand? That phrase concerns me. It indicates there has been much less progress than you say and that his ego is still getting in the way of successful recovery.

Has he been going to MC with you and participating, or just going through the motions? You know? I think I already know the answer. After a short period where he enthusiastically worked on the marriage, his commitment dramatically fell off, didn't it? The more distant his epiphany retreated from the forefront of his mind, the less enthusiasm he displayed. Now his commitment, and the relationship in general, is just about back where it was six months ago?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 05:42 PM
Not back that far ... but back a bit. But I'll be honest - I think its my fault for that. I've been a bit standoffish and cold lately. Things were going so well, then they didn't continue along the path I was hoping for and I just starting being resentful all over again. I need to let that go and take the first step to full-on commit to recovery. We've not had many MC sessions, but he's been interactive enough in the ones we've had. I'm really depressed about how things are going right now, though.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 06:03 PM
Disappointment makes human beings withdraw from interpersonal relationships so as to avoid more pain. I think your reaction of depression is quite normal.

Why so few MC sessions. Frankly, isn't at least one session a week completely in order? My goodness, you and your husband have a TON of issues to work out.

Have you shown your husband the last half of SAA? Is there any progress on getting him to accept any of the protections for a good marriage?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 06:08 PM
Frankly we haven't made the time for more sessions - his schedule is crazy and its hard to work around it. We have 2 copies of SAA, but I don't think he's looked at it and I haven't handed it over to him either. He is perfectly willing for me to take the precautions (as I have and continue to), but he [obviously] isn't so willing (i.e. changing all his passwords). I can try again when he gets back in town and see how it goes. I'm not so sure he's really wanting to do whatever it takes to save our M. And I need to now decide if I'm ok with that or not ...
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 07:00 PM
Yes, you do have to make some decisions, TFC. I suspect, though you haven't said so, that he hasn't really changed much from two months ago. Did you perhaps overreact to some slight thawing in what I increasingly see as a core arrogance your husband isn’t even aware of?

TFC, I have felt for a long time that the best chance for your marriage to survive was for both of you to undergo some deep, extended marital counseling. I haven’t seen anything that makes me want to reevaluate that. Frankly, I earnestly believe you two have problems that were in place long before both of your adulteries, and none of those other problems are being addressed, much less resolved. I know it’s tough finding times when both of your schedules (and the MC’s schedule) have spaces in which to plug a session, but I think it’s absolutely paramount that you and he begin to work on the reasons all this is happening before your depression deepens and you give up. And, btw, if your MC isn’t tough enough to handle things and give you the forum you need to express your thoughts, find another one.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/09/07 10:14 PM
Oh he's acutely aware of his "core arrogance" ... that doesn't mean he's changing it. His confidence is the first thing that attracted me to him, so I hate to let it be one of the things that I allow to affect our M.

What I see is that we BOTH have some habits that we need to override. (i.e. I am a control freak, he's self-centered.) If we have the right help, and I hope our MC is that help, I think that we can work hard to overcome these obstacles on top of the other marital issues we have. I have stressed to H the importance of working together to change these things, instead of separately. He agreed, but we have to get into that habit. We still have a long way to go ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/14/07 07:15 PM
Well this week was rough, but much needed. H finally admitted that he was physical with the girl here in town. We laid it all out on the table - got honest like never before. We handled it beautifully! We were calm, rational, serious, honest, and kind. After that, we both jumped into the M 100% - he's even wearing his wedding band again. So, wish us luck ...
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/17/07 08:11 PM
Had MC last week ... went well. MC told H that "open access" was normal and should occur in an honest M - meaning full access to email, myspace, etc. H was shocked, but agreed to do it. Well, he agreed verbally - I still don't have access to anything though. Wonder how I should approach that?
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 09/21/07 12:40 AM
Can you "lead by example?" If there's an email account or cell phone access code you could share with him and reference the agreement reached in MC, that might open something up.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 10/05/07 02:48 PM
I handed over all my passwords right after DDay ... he chooses not to check up, but I know that he can if he wants. Which I think helps hold me accountable to always put my marriage first.

He finally handed over one of the passwords ... and is being better about being more upfront.

NEW QUESTION:
How do you let go of things that your spouse did to hurt you? We both cheated. We both messed things up. We both hurt one another. I fessed up as soon as I was found out and immediately turned my life around. He just admitted to his affair - 5 months later! And I would hardly call what he gave an apology! He did things to deliberately hurt me, and his apologies have been weak at best. I wake up some mornings wanting to just go back to sleep so I don't have to deal with the fact that I don't think my H loves me. I know he used to, and sometimes I think he still does. But most of the time I truly think he only stays married to me b/c of DD. I'm sick of being bitter about things that happened months ago! But I don't know how to let go! I've talked about it in IC, MC, and prayed about it. I just can't let some things go! I don't think I'm any better than him, or vice versa - so its not that I'm holding onto it to be one-up. And I don't want to feel this way, so I'm not holding on to not forgive. And I do want to be married to him, so I'm not holding on to get out. I just can't stop ... any suggestions??? (Please be gentle with me - I'm fragile! So calm suggestions will work best, no 2x4s please!)
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Recovery Road is a 2-way street! - 10/07/07 05:28 AM
I had in mind you changing a password or two, or three, etc., and letting him know each one immediately. It's a good thing to do, security wise, and you don't have to say, "Hint, hint..." when you tell him. The idea will percolate down into his brain sooner or later.

As to how to let go, I only know it takes time...often lots of time. In my case, I wasn't at peace for about four years, but that was without any kind of counseling at all and some unique difficulties imposed on the situation by being in the military. All I can suggest, TFC, is to keep talking to your IC and MC about it so you can explore ideas with them and eventually find a resolution.

Why don't you set up another thread looking for advice on that specific issue? You've gotten some fresh ideas using that method in the past so maybe it'll bring in something this time.

Hang in there, lady.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good New Info - Life Altering? - 11/29/07 07:48 PM
Found out 2 weeks ago today that my H lied about the extent of things with OW. Turns out they didn't just "get physical" - they had sex, unprotected sex, numerous times! I sent him for an STD test. It came back positive for 2 STDs! And then today he tells more - another girl (I say this as she was only 21!) gave him oral sex.

When do I believe that all the truth has come out? When is more going to be revealed? How do I handle this? Can we ever get through this?
Posted By: medc Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 11/29/07 07:52 PM
TFC...I am sorry this happened to you. STD's have been a hot topic on these boards of late.
Do what you can to protect your health.

Personally, I think you have given your H every chance he deserves....how many more insults must you endure?

Polygraph or divorce...give him the choice.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 11/29/07 07:59 PM
One one hand, I love him and want to be there for him. On the other hand, it seems that I've enabled all his behavior by keeping by his side. So if I stay, does this say to him that I will tolerate just about anything?

I actually considered the polygraph test - how does one go about doing this?
Posted By: medc Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 11/29/07 08:01 PM
look up an examiner online that will handle your needs. Look for some law enforcement work in their background. It will cost between 400-600 and will let you know if he is still lying about anything.

and, yes...it does say you will tolerate anything. stand up and stop taking his crap.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 11/29/07 08:11 PM
Wow that's a lot of money!

What do you recommend I do to "stand up and stop taking his crap"? Do I ask him to take some time away from home - and so I can get out of shock? Can we ever heal if we are separate? I'm scared that if we separate until all the truth comes out, that I won't ever be able to be invested. Is this fear normal?

(Sorry for having 1000 questions - I literally just found out some of this about an hour ago!)
Posted By: medc Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 11/29/07 08:21 PM
No, the polygraph is how you show him you are not taking it any more. If he refuses, divorce him or live a life full of his lies.
I do not recommend your separating unless he refuses to take the test.
Trust me...you will find out a lot more....and then you can work from a place of honesty and knowledge.
Do NOT trust him when he comes clean on a few more things after he agrees to take the test...make him take the test. He is a known liar and should be treated as though he is still lying.
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 12/04/07 02:48 PM
He coughed up more info, then I told him polygraph or get out. He agreed to polygraph - so I'm working on that right now. I am still in shock! He sat down with SAA last night, and finally agreed to do the steps to save our M. I want to, but I must admit to being completely terrified of ever letting my guard down. He seems genuine, but I don't trust anything anymore.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 12/04/07 04:47 PM
But, TFC, doesn't he always turn compliant and cooperative when his back's against the wall? Were I you, I'd go with this polygraph thing...if nothing else, just to see if he'll do it. I suspect he'll try to weasel out of it at the last minute. On the odd chance he actually does take a polygraph examination, you'll be able to finally get all the truth out of him and then you can make a determination of what you want to do about the situation. With respect, I think that's a decision you need to think long and hard about.

BTW, you've gotten an STD test for yourself, right? If WH has 2 STDs, you may have them also.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 12/04/07 07:29 PM
You're right, Longhorn, he always gets compliant with his back against a wall. Just 2 weeks ago I told him he had 24 hours to spill the rest ... and he didn't. Now here we are again - with even more info PLUS 2 STDs! Where does the line get drawn? When do I say "you've had too many chances to tell the truth, just go"?

I did get tested for myself - had one that was (luckily) curable, but not the other. Sex is the LAST thing on my mind anyway!

I love him, but trust is so far away. With Christmas coming up I don't want to spend the money for the polygraph, but I have to know the truth.

He is also supposed to go out of town this weekend, and I am not comfortable with it at all. But we still have to earn our livings.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: New Info - Life Altering? - 12/05/07 03:06 AM
I understand your hesitancy...but I believe it's time you were given all the pertinent information all at one time. It's long past the time to put an end to all the uncertainties and questions about his conduct. For instance, were I you, I’d wonder just how long these little holidays from his marriage have been going on. Frankly, I have a suspicion it’s been far longer than you think...I suspect he’s been living large as a “player” of sorts...but I admit, I’m finding it very difficult to be objective about your husband. I may well be a long way off the mark here...I hope I am.

Anyway, once you have all the information, I advise you to think long and hard about whether to continue working as hard as you have been on recovery. It’s your decision. I think most of us here on MB would be here to support you in whatever direction you decide you will go.

Another thought: I know you and he had an understanding of how married life would be with his career, etc., before you were married...but I’m not sure you had all the facts you needed to make a legitimate compact. I’d consider readdressing several issues about his constant traveling; how he treats and shows respect for his family; how he communicates with you...and when; who he parties with; etc., etc., etc.

Hang in there, okay?
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Nice Update - 01/22/08 12:54 AM
I am happy to report that we are in a much better place since the last time I posted. Over the last month and a half. H took a polygraph and had told the whole truth. In addition, he picked up HNHN & SAA as well as Not Just Friends. He canceled all of his Dec. out of town trips and we spent the majority of the month working on the M. We did not go back to MC - I had a bad taste about it since he lied throughout therapy with 2 therapists! So we've focused on home, family and the marriage. He is doing a great job of putting us first. I must admit to still having some hesitations, but so far so good.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Nice Update - 01/24/08 04:03 PM
Excellent news, TFC. Thanks for coming back and letting us know how you are. Best wishes for continued progress.

LH
Posted By: TFCchanged4good Re: Nice Update - 01/24/08 07:39 PM
Thank you LH! I am still having a lot of trouble with TRUST! I know that will take a while to regain, but sometimes I do wonder if I will ever truly trust him again. I suppose that healing from such marital damage as we have caused is a process that will last a lifetime.
Posted By: Longhorn Re: Nice Update - 01/25/08 01:51 AM
I'd say at least a couple of years after the last known incident, TFC, and that's if your hubby is working HARD at rebuilding the trust. You know the relevant sections in SAA...radical honesty, transparency, etc. If he’ll commit to those things, I think there’s a good chance of recovery.

LH
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