Triggers abound today. My WH has informed me that he is still living AT OW's home, and DS will be there with him this weekend ALONE -- OW will not be there.

Ouch. I AM SO NOT comfortable with this. The trigger is for me, but the concern is for my son. It hurts me, but it frightens me to think what further damage may be inflicted on my DS by WH.

I've read far too many statistics about divorce and the impact on children as they grow older, and looked at my own life (my mother married three times) and the harm that comes to a child's psyche during these times.

My WH assures me that they will be alone.

I feel like a momma bear. I just want to rip his arms out of their sockets and use them to beat WH silly.

Hi SL,

I am so sorry about what your WH is doing and his total inability to conceive how it could hurt your son. Unfortunately it goes without saying that he has no concern right now about your hurting.

I wish I had some great words of wisdom and inspiration for you. But if it helps even a little I will think of you a lot this weekend.

Stay strong. I think the world of all you women in Plan A&B right now fighting for their families. You all deserve so much better.

Oh, SL. I'm sorry to hear this. I really feel for you. At least OW is not going to be there.

I do understand how difficult it is to let your DS go and have WH try to make it DS' other "home". My DDs came home one day after spending the night with WH and talked about their rooms. Just broke my heart. They CAN'T have their own rooms anywhere other than HOME! And HOME is with me!

Yesterday was the first day DDs saw MOWs S7 at MOW/WH house. Although I knew it was coming, it still stung. Bringing all the children together in their disgusting life. And there is nothing MOWH and I can do about it. So frustrating to feel so powerless.

But...we have no control of the waywards' bad choices. We just need to continue to be the lighthouse for our children. We can't control their lives either but we can light the way. My DDs feel safe with me, that is what matters. Your DS feels safe with you and knows he can always return to Mom. When he calls there is no question she will be there for him.

I'm proud of you, SL.

SL, how are we coming with finding the child therapist???

If it was me, there would be absolutely no way that I would let my son go there. It would be over my dead body.

He will be in the presence of EVIL.

He will become even more confused because the OW will make sure that her presence is known there. She cares NOTHING about your son. She is trying to destroy you and will not let on to your H what she may be doing.

You have NO GUARANTEE that she will not show up.

You have NO GUARANTEE that he is NOT LYING..he is a WS..LYING is his middle name.

He may be testing you.

He is liable to tell your son that he is living there with another woman even though she may not be there.

HOW WILL YOU BE ABLE TO PROTECT HIM FROM ANY OR ALL OF THESE EVENTS???

If your H wants to visit with your son, he can choose another option than to willfully and openly take him into that environment. It disgusts me how uncaring and insensitive he is about this...

My sons were almost grown and it PAINED my YS (in his teens) to even know WHERE SHE LIVED....

Thanks Chris and Fox,

I feel like Fox said, that DS HAS a home. It sounds petty, but I loathe the thought of WH setting up house somewhere else. I'll get used to it. Last time he moved out, he lived with a friend of his, that my DS knew well, so I didn't have this concern. Lucky me, eh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I wonder how long the OW will tolerate WH sending her away from her OWN place so that he can spend time with DS. I guess I'll have to get used to the thought that, eventually, it will wear too thin with her, and DS will be introduced to her, then they can all play family with my unwitting son. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

It's amazing that I can be sad and PISSED at the same time. One minute tears are forcing their way out of my eyes against my will, the next I feel that thing up my spine and the anger ensues.

Did you see my post?

I'm so worried about your son.

This is the same thing I am dealing with right now too. the stupid part is that they are sooo out of it that they do not realize how harmful this is. All they think about is what they want...normalcy. I think it makes them fel like what they are doing is ok if they can act like a "family" in their new sitch's.

It is totally understandable how you feel...I felt the same way.

We will see how it plays out on my end...I am refusing to let them stay overnight at "their" place. WH is pushing for it, we will see who wins this battle.

Mimi, I definitely saw your post. I don't have a legal leg to stand on , but I'm going to tell my WH that he CANNOT take my son to that place. He is more than welcome to take him to someplace that DS is acquainted with, but this is too much for that liitle boy to handle right now.

My WH will balk at this, but I don't know what else to do. My friend has invited me to stay at her place so that WH and DS can stay in OUR home, but I don't know how much I like the thought of HELPING WH with this; at the same time DS MISSES his daddy so much, I would hate to take their time together AWAY.

SL...Oh, I don't know what to said but I wanted to let you know I'm here!

Their brains are mush!

My WH thinks that I'm trying to punish HIM.

I have set it up so that he and DS will spend this weekend at our home. After that, he needs to find his own place.

I told him that I don't like DS being exposed to this new environment. He thinks I'm nuts, what does it matter when he is going to be getting a NEW PLACE to live; he will be exposing him to that NEW environment. I guess he has a point there.

WH said that he will NOT be with OW this weekend and would NOT expose DS to her right now. I told him that I do NOT believe him, I don't trust him.

I have stressed all along that this in NOT about WH, but he doesn't believe me. Whatev's. I'm so frustrated with how he tries to turn this all back on me, the CRAZY wife. Oy, I'm so angry with him. He tried to tell me to email him later, as he is working, and doens't have time for this [censored]. I told him that his son is more important than any person on hold or anything that he has to do right now and I will NOT hold off.

These are the moments that I want to kick him in the [email]b@lls.[/email]

sdguy and I will hold him for you.

SL.........thinking of you today......I am going to barf for you.....you know I am heading the same way....I hate feeling so powerless over things........
WS's are so darn selfish....forget about what the children have to go through so they can feel "ok" about thenselves. it disgusts me!!!!!!!!!!

you are the one who will see your son through this, you know this, he will always see and feel your strength.....you are his lighthouse...

I know for sure that you are looking out for the BEST INTERESTS OF YOUR SON, SL...

IMO, your H's priority right now is not your son. He, on the other hand is NOT looking out for his best interests.

I shouldn't tell you to break the law but if it was me, I wouldn't care about the LEGALITY of it. He would have to take me to court and a judge would have to make me send my son there.

As to staying at your house, I don't know.

Is your H REALLY with HIM during the VISITS? Is this about sneaking time in with the OW on the weekend? Will he moping around THERE if he has to visit with him at your house? I certainly would choose your house over the OW's house. That's your call. I think you know what's best.

I just couldn't stomach the idea of him going there given his reaction the last time he visited his D. This option would have been even WORSE than last time.

Mimi, I have told him to bring DS to the house to spend time this weekend. After that, he will not be doing any overnights until DH get's it together. We're NOT DIVORCED, and I believe it is an AWFUL idea to be exposing our DS to any of WH's selfish behavior.

I am looking into the 12 session program of the Rainbows organization first. I want to see how that goes; they deal directly with separation, and divorce with small children. WH will be taking him to these sessions. I have found a great place for IC, too. So, soon enough, DS will be getting the proper help he needs.

Now, I spoke to one of my friends who reminded me of something very important. Right now, and probably forever, I WEAR THE PANTS. On that note, I'm putting my foot firmly down FOR MY SON. These children SEE ALL, and absorb it and then begin to think that they come SECOND to the OP that W's get involved with. I KNOW; I was one of those children. It does nothing to boost your self esteem, and I just can't bear my DS feeling this way.

GREAT, SL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can I help kick? Fox---always supportive of my friends and will help in anyway I can! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Just for clarification, Silent, do you guys have a separation agreement or any kind of custody order? If I remember correctly, there has not yet been ANY kind of court or legal intervention--there is no court order of any kind.

Thus, it is my understanding that you would not be breaking any kind of laws to say that you will not allow you DS to be in the OW's house while you are still married to WH. Furthermore, you have gone to great lengths to offer WH the use of your MARITAL home if he wants to spend time with DS -AND- there are daily options that your WH could take to spend time with DS that do not involve OW (such as picking DS up from daycare--taking him to McD's--taking him to a park or playland, etc.). My point in all this is that if WH was truly concerned for the child's best interest, he would be thinking of DAILY ways to spend every possible moment with him--not "demanding" that the child spend time in the home of the adulteress while still married to the child's mother.

Silent, on the one hand, you can not control your WH and what he chooses to do or where he chooses to spend his time. In addition, you need to facilitate the relationship between WH and DS as much as you can. But OTOH, you are still married to WH--and no court has ordered you to do anything!! It is my humble opinion that if I were in your shoes, I would respond in this manner:

"WH, you may see DS at any time you choose--our door and our home are always open to you. However, at this time, you and I are still married and there has been no court directive requiring me to allow DS into an adulterous environment. Thus I choose to protect him from the harsh truth of adultery. If you truly have DS's best interests at heart, I would request that you consider spending every moment you can with him at your son's HOME."

(BAD CJ! BAD!) I know--a little cranky, but I believe it gets the point across to the WS -and- would not go against you in a court of law.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

I like CJ's thought. You might also mention to him that less than 1% of affairs last, and so son will probably be introduced to lots of new environments every 6 months, and you would prefer he not be introduced to the revolving door romances.

Believer, my gf already mentioned that little nugget. My WH's uncle was just like this, with the additional insult of adding babies with every new woman he shacked up with.

I'm pretty angry with WH right now. Thanks guys, for helping me get my IRE up!!!

SL,

I would say do what you know to be right.

It is not right to have DS go see his Dad at the OW's place.

As a father I wouldn't want my kids exposed to another man before we were D'd.

It is not the right message to be sending.

I agree just cancle the overnight visitation. No court would fault you for that.

Frog, I love your sig line reference to your wife's email. That's just awesome.

I have scheduled for WH and DS to be at OUR home this weekend, after that, I will not be helping anymore. My DS has so looked forward to seeing his dad this weekend, and I want for him to have that.

It's an utter shame that WH does not use his own experience being around adultery as a child and how it scewed his own sensibilies about love and marriage. I certainly have been using my experiences as a child from divorced and multiple marriage family. I don't want my son to grow up thinking that his happiness is less of a concern that MY OWN.

SL,

Thanks we email back and forth every day. Until I got the new job we worked right around the corner from her so I would meet her at breaks now we can't.

So that was one of her resposnes figured it would be a good fit there for a while.

She called me a butt head today but didn't think that should go there. LOL.

I think you have the right attitude though. As a parent, a good parent, your first thought should be to protect your child. There will be enough crap thrown at them as they grow older from a harsh world. They don't need a father throwing it at them.

Funny how some people grow up in a crappy home and turn out great while others don't.

I don't get it.

You are doing what is best for the DS and that is all you can do.

It would be nice if my son could grow up believing in commitment, and understanding your responsibilities in life. Having fun can be pretty easy, but it's not worth it at the expense of those you love.

I'm probably not the right person to give advice, because I have been dealing with OM being around my children for a while now without having any real recourse. It frustrates the ****** out of me, but legally, I can't prevent her from doing anything that doesn't threaten the children--the courts won't interfere in her personal life. I don't think she has taken the kids to his apartment yet, but there's nothing I can do about it. She tells me that there haven't been any overnights yet (that would be inappropriate), but there's nothing I can do about it. Telling her that it's inappropriate or that there's less than a 1% chance of their relationship working out--that's trying to reason with a Fogged-Out Zombie.

Attempting to force the issue by "forbidding" it or the like will only work against me in court. Jennifer told me that yes, it will be a big trigger, but that this is how it will be in divorce anyway, and "it's not like he's a drug dealer." She's still a mom and will protect the kids from threats that she sees and understands.

Do I like it? Of course not. I hate every second of it, but there it is. I have been struggling with whether to send an email to WW stating specifically how inappropriate I think it is for her to have OM around the kids--while you two are married, it's immoral and wrong and will hurt the kids and you guys won't be together anyway and and and

But will she listen to this? In her mind, she's not married now. She actually said that to my mom in repsonse to "It's wrong for you have the other man around--you're a married woman." She said "No, I'm not." Waywards are nutty, but they are still parents, and until they demonstrate otherwise, the courts will respect that.

Everyone here is incredibly offended by the whole concept of infidelity (rightly so--we understand the effects), and we have an idea of the long-term consequences of it, but I think that the reality outside of the MB forum is a bit different. If I decided to cancel a visit because I didn't agree with the morality of what she was doing with the kids (e.g., sharing a hotel room with MOM while on vacation with the kids), not only would the court not agree with me, they would hold it against me. This was made clear to me at my mediation session the other day.

I don't know. Maybe my approach is wrong, but it feels like the best one for me right now. I suspect that fighting against contact between my kids and OM would 1) provide drama, 2) make her want to do it more, and 3) provide contact between WW and myself, and I'm trying to stay dark.

Maybe the Maryland courts are different from the CA ones, but I think that sooner or later you'll have to face it, SL.

I'm really really sorry. I will gladly hold either an arm or a leg, in case you would rather have a unimpeded shot at the jewels.

In Maryland, the courts do not like to interfere in the personal lives of the offending parties either. I may attempt to seek sole legal and physical custody of my DS. Right now, we have shared legal custody and I have physical custody with WH having visitation.

I know that he does not want to find his own place. He would much prefer to go the easy route and stay with his soulmate. I feel a responsibility to my son to point out to his father that he is not THINKING about his SON in all of this, rather WH is only considering the effects of all of this on himself. If I can stall him from harming our son, I will do it.

Kids don't have a choice in these matters, but they are asked to grin and bear it; that's just awful. I remember dealing with my mother's new marriages and R's. Again, it was like WE didn't exist, like OUR lives were secondary to the cause of my mom not having to struggle anymore. I have always felt for her, being a single mom, just trying to survive between pay checks, but marrying someone so as to not have to do that anymore isn't a better alternative.

I think as a mom, you do what is best for your son...no wiggle room. We have stats on our side...there is no "good" reason for a father or a mother to subject their child to this sitch. We cannot control that we are in this sitch, but we can control some of how it plays out.

I am sticking to my guns...you do the same.

In the end, we are truly protecting our kids and our H's from hurting their relationship with their kids..

It's a no brainer!!

You are a great MOM...that is why you are doing this with such strength.

You know if the shoe were on the other foot, they would have the same argument.

Don't get me wrong. You guys are doing what I wish I could do. I just don't think it would end well for me.

Hi SL,

I saw on CJ’s Killer Bee thread you are having a “not as good as the best that can be expected kind of day by people who have been betrayed, stabbed, spit on and mocked by their spouse” kind of day. Since that thread is pretty much the ladies room I thought I would touch base here.

Looks like a lot of the Bees have some sadness in their posts today. It’s probably just a rest stop on the trail. But it’s time to get up and start moving forward again.

I have been vividly dreaming a lot these past few days about W too. Not Wayzilla but W either pre A or in some fanciful post A way. It is strange but I do not hold much stock in dreams.

Like we said on the earlier post, they are lost at sea, MIA, on the missing person’s report, with little chance of returning from the dead. Time to move on.

Stay strong Wonder Woman, you have been doing a great job for you and your DS.

Yeah, the dreams I don't take much stock in, but they leave a lingering sense of loss. It's really just been this week, since Friday. I think I'm just having a reaction to dealing with the reality of my WH's mentality about his son. He pisses me off, thinking that his son's time is for WH and not the other way around.

I have heard him say on a number of occassions that 'HIS' time with his son, blah blah blah. Not 'SONS' time with him. There is a big difference. As if my son is the one who needs to entertain his father.

I also had to ask WH to call his son on a regular basis again, instead of telling son that he can call him anytime he wants to; problem with that is daddy doesn't always answer the phone--AGAIN, putting the responsiblity of communication on our 4 YEAR OLD SON.

On one hand I'm very angry with WH, which is a waste of energy, and on the other, I'm so hurt for my son that it is affecting me adversely.

The sun is shining, it's a beautiful day, and I am happy. I just wanted so much more for myself and my kids, more than what I had, and now it all seems like history repeating itself, with one shining difference, my DS doesn't have to deal with his mommy being poor and marrying to stay afloat...

I typically don't remember my dreams, but last night wasn't easy, and I dreamed about WW and OM. I was in her apartment to see the kids, and OM had his own room. I asked to use the bathroom and had to go through his room to get to it. The last thing I remember is trying to figure out which toothbrush was his so that I could spit on it.

I talked elsewhere about wanting to give. Some of the people I wish I could give [more] to are the Bees. Send you all flowers from my garden. Reach out for a quick hand squeeze. Provide someone in RL that gets it as much as the people here do.

"with one shining difference, my DS doesn't have to deal with his mommy being poor and marrying to stay afloat..."

Pretty huge difference!

Just let us know, the Batmobile is gassed and idling and the Batcave door is open (Spring garage cleaning)!

sdguy, we are lucky to be living in a time when forums like this exist and people like us go through this experience together. I do wish that I had more people to talk to who REALLY understand this process. Not just MB, but the grief and devastation. It's like a lush wooded area being stricken with wildfire, only to leave soot and brush behind. Luckily, those woods grow back, are reborn.

Chris, the money thingy really is a HUGE difference. I don't have to worry nearly as much as my mother did, and that is part of the reason I understand and forgive her for some of the things I was put through. She did the BEST she could, with the knowledge she had. She was truly a very loving woman. She loved her children so much. I, now, understand how she felt and why she was so tortured.

I remember waking up in the middle of the night to the sound of crying (I was about 12 at the time). It was my mother, she was on a suicide crisis hotline. She didn't have an easy life. She helped to make the strong person that I am today, and I am very proud of her. If she were alive today, we may not have seen eye to eye on the adultery stuff, as she committed adultery with my, now, step-dad. It would have been nice to have her shoulder to cry on, though.

One more thing, I read on hrdhddwoman's thread about how discouraged she is with her BH's MB viewing. I also read a response from someone, I think it was penalty kill (I'm unsure) stating that she believed real-life support was much more important to her than this place. I would love to have that kind of support, but I wanted all to know, who have helped me and are still listening today, you have been the BEST support that I have gotten, in terms of educating me about adultery and the devastation. I don't even know many IC's who have first hand experience with adultery and are willing to share it. So, thank you. I don't have many real life supporters, as most of my family are knee deep in their own crap, so I am grateful to you.

I saw the same post by penaltybox (the wayward, I think) and had the same thought. They don't know what they're talking about. I don't know ANYONE in RL who understands infidelity the way the people here do. My IC recently told me she went to a seminar on infidelity and that it was basically a waste of time--she said learned so much more from me. My MC was completely clueless.

This place is the best support group I could imagine. Thanks to all of you.

SL and SD,

I would also note that as a man this is great because it is anonymous.

I couldn't visit an MC/IC and talk about my issues like I could here. Log on and go. Help is on the way.

The other thing I think this does is it lets you know you are not alone.

I feel so bad right now there is someone I know who I think had an A and his M is in trouble. I don't want to say something because to be honest it is kinda embarassing for someone to know my FWW had an A. We look so happy and perfect.

So being here helps. If they had in person support that was better, great to each his own.

For me knowing others have been where I am is better.

It is no wonder we are all here so often...you cannot speak to this issue if you have not walked through it. Even just knowing there are listening ears is sooo helpful.

I am thankful to have a few people around me that have walked this road and can speak from experience...but I love coming here and just knowing that for where I am in this process, I am ok!

That is only because of you guys...otherwise I would question my sanity most days.

I do wish that there was a way to put a face to the names sometimes...but also I like the anonymity.

IHC

isn't this whole thing just awful?

dear son,
this is your mommy who is also my wife and this other person is my girlfriend

insanity!!!

i remember how confused i was about the whole thing. i was 6 when it happened to me.

i'm sorry for you and your son silent

eav, EXACTLY what I'm trying to avoid. My history was very similar, and the damage DID hit it's targets, namely, me and my sister and brother. As children, WE did not have a choice, WELL...as an adult I DO.

I especially appreciate you coming here and mentioning how NUTS it is for WH to expect me to give my son over like that.

Two weeks from now I'll be back on the mats.

I'll 'go to the mattresses' if I must! (Godfather reference)

Your history and your obvious intelligence is why everyone here has complete confidence in how great your future will be. Your son will be so proud of his mother and how she got him through this time.

Your actions and dedication speak volumes. You are in this limbo because you choose to be, because you know it gives you the best chance of creating the best environment for your son, namely your intact family as it was meant to be. A lesser person would have already given up.

I am proud to count you among my friends.

I'm feeling pretty up today, sort of inquistive about my future, but only peeking forward, not taking a long gander.

I really only plan week to week at this point. I plan on working on finishing up the tile work in my bathroom. We installed 12x12" tiles on the floor (heated--yummy) and in the shower stall, but didn't complete the job on the shower, so i have to get-er-done.

I hope that my son fares better than I did. I mean, I'm doing well now, but I've had to go through a process to forgive and learn and move on and let go.

LOVE IT!! I'm still going through...and actually LOVING the JOURNEY...



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SL,

Sorry but I got a fortune cookie, took the fortune and rubbed it with green tea leaves, gave it up to an almighty being, ran it through some chicken part I saw on a vodoo show and it doesn't look good for you.

Oh wait I had it turned upside down.

You will be fine then. Whew I got scared for a second.

Never plan too far in advance on doing the fun things just geterdun today. The not having fun stuff I plan for way out in the future. Then I try to procrastinate after that. LOL. Unless it is completely necessary.

I have discovered so many things about myself that I either ignored or denied and I am GLAD to get to know myself. I have always been introspective, but I have never given myself the okay to let go. I'm happy to have learned that.

I think having my son and having a family and dealing with such great loss, I have learned that it's okay to let go, to forget about control, to go within myself, to let the divine in. I'm not speaking of religion, I'm sure many understand what I'm getting at. Truth sets me free. I see ME now. It's cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think age has a little to do with it; naivte is close to a thing of the past. I'm grounded and I like it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You don't know about age yet darlin. I have socks older than you.

Oh, sounds like something my lame mom would say (while she shrugs her shoulders and rolls her eyes)... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Did you also walk 4 miles, UPHILL, to school in the snow, all in old raggedy shoes that have newspaper inside to fill up the holes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't referring to being OLD, I was referring to aging in that 'becoming a woman' kinda way. [ in the background, you slowly hear the volume raising as the song, "Girl, you'll be a woman soon" (Neil Diamond version, of course) begins to play...]

P.S. As an aside, I dressed up as Neil Diamond at the last Halloween party my H and I threw prior to the A. I looked FAB. I have a black acoustic guitar, and I was wearing a sequined black shirt, and super tight black pants and black boots. My hair was great, and I pasted on chest hair to billow out of the shirt. I may have to attempt a party this year ,just so I can dress up...

Oh, and Chris, GROSS, you should probably consider NEW socks. I mean, didn't you get the memo about care and maintenance of socks. Are your toes sticking out of any part of them. I swear, MEN, you guys and your gross feet. BLECH (:0<<<<<< [vomiting emoticon]

If you turn that song up I am going back out into the snow in my holey, newspaper filled shoes to climb a mountain.

How about something by Nelly McKay instead?

And please forgive my last post. As you now know from my sister’s post on my thread that I am not the metaphorical thinker in the family.

PS to your PS

If I have a choice between seeing you dressed as Wonder Woman or Neil Diamond with chest hair well.........

No comment required here.

I LOVE Neil Diamond. He's great. My momma's name was Caroline, and when I was a kid and 'Sweet Caroline' would eminate from the radio, we would sing at the top of our lungs (my mom was a quasi country singer--she had a great voice--which my sister says I inherited--especially since I quit smoking). I have great memories of his music. I'm drinking "Red, Red, Wine", heh, heh <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To date, since our most recent separation, WH has sent two emails of interest; one apologizing for all of the pain he has caused me, and the second asking about Truehart's whereabouts. He also has taken a lead role in finding counseling for our son and felt the need to mention HIMSELF, too.

I hope, for his sake, that he gets help for himself. His kid needs a strong daddy, and however strong I am, I cannot substitute for a daddy. My mom did her best, but she couldn't be a father. I have a good stepdad, but I've always wondered what it would have been like to have a dad, and to have been daddy's little girl.

[As if I were some kind of expert], it's good stuff. You should be encouraged.

As I said on the killer bee's thread, I will be much more silent this time. I'm assuming nothing. I'm still in Plan B; just ironing out childcare issues. That is ALL I discuss.

I did slip the week after WH left, but I wasn't really dark until after we had ironed out his coming over to get his stuff, so I used that to my advantage. I had spoken to him, while he was home, about a thread that Pep started about poetry. Someone posted W.H Auden's "Funeral Blues"


Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message He Is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sunday rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last for ever: I was wrong.

The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.



I had told WH that this is how I felt about WH, even when he was home. He was lost to us. Not a LB, just how it felt. I haven't sent anything about my feelings since.

I am lucky to have great int.'s and more than one...I have a husband/wife team, who were/are trying to be friends w/ WH still (only becase they see the big picture and want him to have a place to land when he is ready...) and a friend at work who is not his friend who can do the dirty work calls that other int.s would prefer not to.

WH has no reason to ever call me...in fact last time he called my work, he asked for my co-worker because "I'm not allowed to talk to IHC!!!"

HA Ha!!!!

I hope you can find someone willing to do this for you...it sure takes the worry out of a plan b break...

HMMM...so he is wondering about Truhearts letter...good sign...but we are not going to think about that...how's that garden coming...or that shower?

Yeah, I prefer not to give too much credence to what anyone says without seeing it being backed up at the same time. I'll let the email be just that. I hope that WH does find his way back, but all I'm going to do is give him the light, that's all.

Just wanted to let you know that I was thinking about you...I've been so busy with work...

I hope that you and your son are well...

(((SL))))

You are so wonderful!

Exactly...he knows the way back and he can put in all the effort required to get there...no more on your part...just keep the lights on!

I think I've finally had my EUREKA moment! I understand Plan B now, even better than before. It truly is a loving thing to go to Plan B. I also know that I will survive anything now, Plan B, divorce, recovery, singlehood, etc and so on. My fears are not holding me back; they still exist, but they do not keep me from making decisions.

I'm starting to live up to my username!

Silent,

So happy for you.. can't wait till I have mine.

We will survive and bloom.

Still

It took me a while to get there. I was shown the true nature of a wayward once and for all, and WHAMO! TWANG! After about a month of him being gone, I got it. I really get where he is and how tough he has it right now. I do not envy him. I am also realizing how much I wish that I could help carry his pain, and realize that has been our dynamic. He now has to learn how to swim on his own, and I do have fears that he won't make it back home.

That's not okay with me, but I have no choice. I'm not like other people, I don't enjoy watching the carnage of a train wreck. I'm not curious about the poor, mangled souls laying within the wreckage. I feel pain; I'm highly empathetic. I would much rather visit those who have been in the wreckage and lived to tell the story. I (as many here, wayward and battered alike) have suffered through so much pain, I would rather not watch him hurt. I just want to comfort him. I fear for my H's future. Plan B is really the best for me.

Silent,

I too fear for my WH future... I fear he is going to be a lonely old man. I can't stop him as much as I would like.

I'm not wheer you are yet... I do want to see my WH suffer some. With all the suffering he has out me through and my kids. Hopefully I won't always feel this way because I don't like that about myself right now.

Still

I have decided that I will call WH by his new name, Poopsie Wafflechunks! (PWC)

Question about Plan B

How do you stay dark when you are confronted with dealings with children? For instance, say your child is involved in a sport and your WS shows up to every event, and attempts to get your attention. How is it possible to remain dark when they can SEE you right in front of them?

My worry is that there will be a counseling session for my son that both parents are asked to attend. Do I decline?

I guess I am wondering where the BS's are who have school-aged or younger children and have made it through Plan B (M survived or divorced)? Who had a great Plan B, and also had to deal with communication about children and SEEING each other?

Hi SL,

This is worth a bump up for more input. I wish I could help and offer some proven thoughts, but without any minor children Plan B for me simply feels like a finalized divorce and single life. I have not seen or had any communication with Wayzilla for over a month.

Hey Chris,

I was hoping for more input on this, too. We'll see.

I have had a pretty rough weekend; a lot of thinking going on. I was triggered last week when WH called my DS for his evening call. My son asked his daddy why was there so much noise, and so many people talking in the background (which meant WH was 'out' at a bar). My sister was there and was aghast at the fact that WH was out at a bar. I wasn't surprised, but her emotions and mine combined with my DS saying he missed his daddy, well, it hurts so much sometimes. I feel so much for my son. That's probably what keeps me in this place, trying to save my M.

I have been questioning how good it is for me to carry on hope, that seems to destroy me. One moment I think that I should just get a divorce over with, the next, I'm trying to hold on, trying to save it against all odds. I struggle within myself every day. I carry pain with me everywhere I go, pain for my son, mostly.

My self-esteem is okay, but my kid isn't! He was a bit weepy, telling me that he just missed his daddy so. It breaks my heart a little bit every time I hear it. I can't get away from the WH, because I hear the pain in his son's heart daily. I wish I were exaggerating. Still working toward finding him the right help. I will be deciding by the end of the week what to do.

I remember Ark coming up with the idea of crowding friends, family around you at sports events.

Regarding the counseling, tell the counselor that you CHOOSE to meet individually, not with your husband.

LMAO...Wayzilla...GOOD ONE Chris! That needs to be added to Eph list of infidelity terms! LMAO

On the IC session...I would decline and ask the IC to do them separate, then fill you in on DS...just my 2 cents...not sure on the rest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry that you ARE still dealing with so much pain...I know even when I expect STBX to do something it doesn't make it any easier when he does it...

Man SL,

I am so sorry to hear about your son. This crap is so wrong. But I know he is very fortunate to have you fighting for him. You sound like one of the strongest people here so I know you both will be fine.

I don't carry any hope for my marriage anymore but I do get sad still. Usually during the night from 1:00 AM to 5:00 AM. I have taken to sleeping just about anywhere but the bed.

Yesterday was pretty a pretty good day. My dad, brother and sister came over for Easter Dinner. I cooked up a storm. I made a smoked ham, a pork tenderloin, some roasted Yukon gold pot's , some asparagus, some green beans with sauteed onions and port. shrooms, homemade macaroni and cheese, and for dessert, I made a strawberry, apple crisp. The food was delicious.

Another good thing, my dad played with my son into the evening. They really did have fun. So the majority of the day was good. It felt like HOME again. I always enjoyed having everyone over. Since my mother died, the family has been more fragmented, but it feels good when we all gel.

However, when everyone is gone and DS talks about his daddy, nothing fills that emptiness for him. I'm beginning to get used to the idea of WH not being around. I'm having a hard time giving up on H, and I don't intend to, but I'm not dealing with him, and the pull of that life that he is in now can be so strong. I don't know if he has the strength to leave it behind. I DEFINITELY DO NOT have the strength to deal with WAYWARD CRAP anymore either.

It's almost like dealing with someone who has an identity crisis. I KNOW that my H wants to come home. I KNOW that he loves his family. I KNOW that H is buried much more deeply beneath the surface now. I am ANGRY and SAD. I DON'T know how this is all going to end. I don't think about that as much. The only thing I do think about is my son, and the what if's of his young life. It's the next phase in this whole nutty sitch.

I am much more stable now, and I have learned to deal with much of my own pain and life. Now that I have it more together, the focus has COMPLETELY shifted to my DS. I regret that it wasn't always there in the past, but I was a mess. I took care of him, and hugged him and kissed him, and loved him. He was having problems controlling rage the last time his dad left, but he couldn't TALK about his pain then. I was all over the place with my own rage and sorrow.

I guess I am grateful that I can focus on him now. I am feeling a bit of regret for not staying in Plan B and not letting that Wayward sum-beech back in. I aided in damaging my son further, and am disappointed in myself. I have to be better, do better. I can't be a party to hurting my DS.

Chris, I was talking to my dad about what it feels like, living with all of the pain that one suffers post betrayal, especially when the WS chooses to leave for OP.

I told my dad that it was similar to the death of a loved one, except with the knowledge that they still exist, but you STILL can't be with them. You suffer the loss over and over again. There is no permanence to the situation, no definitives. It's as if that person dies a thousand deaths and you mourn them over and over.

I may not be describing it well here, as I'm no Shakespeare, but it's how the last two years have felt. I never knew how horrific this was for others. When my mother cheated on my step-dad and left, I had no idea what kind of suffering he was going through. He was a cold fish, so I didn't really think he had feelings. I'm sure that I was wrong. He lashed out at my sister, though, and blamed her for my mother leaving, stating that she was a problem child and got between them because they fought over my sis. It was a horrible scene.

This is all just kind of flowing through the transom of my mind lately. I think I'm learning and that can be painful too. I realize that Plan B has it's grips in me again, too. My own withdrawal was set back by recent events.

There is a lot going on in the beady little head of mine right now. Can ya tell?

I can't even remember EXACTLY how many FALSE RECOVERIES we had.

I would GET BACK UP ON THE HORSE..after each fall...

YOU CAN DO IT, TOO...

Thanks Mimi, that IS my choice. I'm just caught up in the reigns right now. I'm still silent, dark. Just emoting right now. I'm hanging in there. It will get easier. I was so happy to be around my family yesterday. I miss MY family. Can you tell that FAMILY is high on my EN's list?

Yep SL,

It would be nice to come to a place of acceptance with all the feelings. Whenever I feel like I have made great progress I seem to turn a corner and need to work through more issues I had not felt yet. For me it is not about hope for the marriage, it is about accepting and being at peace with the final situation and moving on. I do look forward to the day when my personal anger, sadness, feelings of betrayal and evil hope for an unhappy future for Wayzilla are gone. It’s all just unhealthy baggage.

But still the pain their selfish entitlement and lies about the BS and marital history causes the kids disgust me beyond words. The kids just seem to become little decorations and pawns to have around to try to show the world what fabulous parents they are. This I think will be much harder to get over particularly for those of you with young children.

I am glad you had such a good day with your family. You deserved that.

I guess if I brightside things, I could say that Poopsie Wafflechunks has taken a front seat to participating in getting our DS help and to NOT exposing him to further pain by trying to bring him into his sordid lifestyle. Heck of a brightside, but I gotta hold on to what I can right now.

Like I said, I will protect my son with all that I have. I will shine the brightest light and shout the truth as loud as humanly possible. IT WILL hit it's mark and be as effective as possible in the wayward mind. I won't stop, either. DS will always be my child, so I will always stand guard. Life will hurl enough insult at DS, I don't need anybody egregiously adding to it.

SL:
Missing YOUR family...yep, I can relate. The trip was TOUGH the first 24 hours or so...really missing having H be a part of it, really wishing that he could be with us. Feeling like this was such a loss for the boys; that they don't have their dad with them when they experience these things for the first time. Even playing in the pool, etc. No dad. Everyone else had a dad; not my boys. Swallowing the hard, unpalatable lump that THIS is the new reality for us as a family.

But about day 2, it got better...I remembered the last big road trip we took (mid-A) and how really cold and distant WH was. That wasn't good for the boys, either...still better than no dad at all, but certainly not what they deserve.

I also missed WH at Easter dinner yesterday. My mom has little eggs with everyone's names on them that she sets out at our places each Easter...I know that WH's egg was around somewhere and she very wisely didn't have it in sight.

Today...and I speak ONLY for today!...I feel like I am a great catch, a great mom, a real winner. That WH is the loser. And guess what?? We enjoyed our trip, and we enjoyed Easter dinner!

This is how I see you, silent. A winner. A great mom.

Chris: AMEN. Your words communicate my feelings exactly. And your statement about the kids...especially young kids...it's really horrifying. They love their parents--and both parents have an obligation to respect that--but both the kids and the BS KNOW that the WS is WRONG, but the WS doesn't think so....

So confusing!! If they were old enough to have developed a more clear individual identity, or somehow were able to place the WS actions in context and make real, reasoned judgements about it...but when they are young?? Not to get too Freudian, but don't young kids identify with the same sex parent??? And the same sex parent is behaving in an immoral and hurtful way, and says it's okay to do so...??

It must just be baffling.

I see that you are only feeling a bit of regret, but that seems like a bit too much. You did exactly what you had to do. How else could you have handled it? Please don't beat yourself up over that. I'm still in awe over your response.

I wish I knew what to tell you about the kiddo. I struggle with this one every day, but it's a bit different for me with 50% custody. I don't get "I miss mommy," I get "I wish mommy lived here." And the kids know that that's what I want, too. The kids are what keep me going. I would have been so long gone if not for them. And I would have been long gone if I didn't think WW was a typical wayward who's going to wake up at some point. It would have been so much easier to just walk away.

We're doing the hero thing, SL. We're choosing the difficult path because we know it's what's best for our children--it gives us the best chance of recovering our families. Maybe if you can stop thinking about how it sucks what PWC is doing to DS (he's a wayward--of course he's going to do stupid, thoughtless things) and focus on what you can do to make it better? (sounds easy--if you figure out how to do it, let me know).

Check out Mortarman's thread. He posted to me on my thread a while back about Plan B and kids' functions. This hasn't been too bad for me, at least in terms of staying dark. I'm able to look right through WW most of the time, but she hasn't been making much of an effort to get in my face, either. Her presence is still a triggering distraction from the game, but even that seems to be lessening.

Sis and Sdguy, you both have such great ways of describing what we all suffer. You are able to put to words, better than myself, how this all feels.

Sis, I went on a trip last year in early August (about 1 month after WH left. I had just received paperwork for my LSA. I travelled down to Tennessee with my dad and son. I looked forward to the trip, and it was good to get away. My sis lived near Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg at the time ( I live in MD, so the trip is about 9hours--when my foot isn't feeling a bit 'leaden'), so we saw a lot of 'stuff'. My favorite time was visiting the Ripley's Aquarium. That place was just beautiful! I, too, always enjoyed road trips with my H. I was happy to have done it (taken the trip) by myself, and my son STILL talks about it.

I was looking for MM's thread early Saturday, but got a bit busy. Went out to do some shopping and gather food for Easter DinDin. The weather hasn't been great here, so DS and I have been hanging out inside. I can't wait until it's warm and we can go to local parks and such. DS has a swingset in the backyard, and it's great for afternoons post daycare, but the weekends will be filled with more adventure when it gets warmer. Distractions for me too, including working in my gardens and working on the house.

I had every intention of getting some tile work done this weekend, but I forgot about preparing Easter dinner, so that got bumped.

Sdguy, if I figure out what I can to do make it better, I will let you know. OUR childrens' foundations are busted or have been pulled out from beneath them, like some magic trick, only no one is in awe or laughing.



This is EXACTLY my intention with Plan B; otherwise, I would file TODAY. My DS, too, says that he misses his daddy AND that he wants him to live with us. He also asks WHY doesn't daddy live with us. I don't think I have the cure for DS's ailment. I never will. The only thing I can do is help him as he grows older to get to a point where he doens't hinge his self worth on his daddy's actions of leaving.

I said this recently, I am beginning to truly see my H as wayward, in the scripted sense. I had myself convinced that he was different. I don't know why, but I did. Probably just fear. Now, I see him as hurting and lost, and maybe stuck in a situation that he has no idea how to get out of. Painted into the perverbial corner. Well, I would just make tracks, if I were him (but I'm not)!

The other night I was talking with DS7 after DD3 had gone to sleep. DS7 has been antagonizing DD3 (some of which is a normal thing to do to one's little sister, I think, but this seems out of character, and he does it when he's angry), so I was following up, because I had gotten exasperated and angry. I told him that maybe he was angry with me for something, and that that would be okay, and that I wished that he could talk with me about it.

That conversation (and how DD3 never gets in trouble) morphed in maybe two sentences into him talking about how WW sits so far away at his baseball games.

DS: Why does she sit so far away? She can't even see from over there.

Pause.

SDG does not say: Because she's ashamed to come over and sit with the happy families because she knows that she is destroying hers through her own selfishness.
SDG: Well, Mommy is doing a lot of things right now that I don't understand.
DS: SAME HERE.
SDG: And I wish she would stop doing them.
DS: SAME HERE.

Pause

SDG: You know, just because Mommy is doing the wrong thing doesn't make her a bad person. She's still a good person, and she loves you and DD3 very much, and she will always be there, etc.

The kids know. And if they don't now, they will later. You're doing the right thing. The hero thing. Be proud of yourself. I am.

I was typing so fast that I forgot to put YOUR paragraph in quotes. I'll be right back...

My DS says that he wishes his daddy were home, and I say, "Me, too son." My DS will ask about his daddy and he will say, "Mommy, I love you sooooo much" and "Mommy, I love daddy soooo much, and I miss him soooo much". The response I have for him, "DS, I love your daddy too, and I miss him too" When I am asked why daddy isn't living with us, "Hmmm, well DS, daddy has his own problems to work out, that have nothing to do with you OR me."

I tend to mirror my DS thoughts. I truly do wish that we could all be together, and happy. Right now, that is too much for WH to do. I haven't told my DS anything about any OW. If WH introduces DS to Aimless, then I'll explain THAT part of the sitch, until then, I will just deal with daddy and his choices or rather BAD CHOICES.

I have been gone too long...so much happens in a few days. It seems like you are kind of going through the same feelings I am right now...only I am leaning very heavily toward D.

I feel like a failure even saying that here...you are sooo strong. An amazing mother and cook (hello Easter at SL's). It is cool how throughout this, we are able to just make rational decisions and calmly think through them, while the WS is spinning and feels lost (or so we assume...). I am struggling too and just wanted to let you know how GREAT I think you are.

IHC

Oh, IHC, I have leaned to and fro with the big ole D. I recently decided to DO NOTHING about that. I am in no hurry to move that along, and Plan B affords me some time to really let things sink in.

Right now, I am struggling with the thought of if I even WANT WH back. I would have to accept that he AGAIN chose OW over his family. Again, it's scripted behavior, so I'm leaving that alone. I'm banking on Plan B and more growth and knowledge on my part, to get me through to WHEREVER I end up.

How i feel now? Well, I think that WH would need to get some serious help and make progress on that front. He would have to show TRUE REMORSE, not just lip service. On his OWN, without prompting, he would have to leave OW, send NC letter, COMPLETELY give himself over to the M. The selfish SOB that I have come to know would have to disappear. It's a lot to ask of someone who has been so selfish for so long. I think loving yourself is one thing, but pushing all others aside so you can feel a moment of happiness is not who I want in my life anymore.

So, you can see why I have waffled. My H was a good man, he gave me the affection I needed, the family time I craved, and he took care of his son (even though it was only for a short while). If he showed up, I'd give him a chance.

Yeah, this is a really tough one for me. How do you explain this to a 3-year old? I don't think you can. Sure, I could use it as an opportunity to hurt WW, but I don't want to hurt my kids (and I don't really want to hurt WW--I want her to get better), so I think what I will do when DD3 mentions OM is change the subject and swallow the things I would rather say.

Part of the reason I have not explained this part to DS has been his age. We WILL cross that bridge when DS is ready. He will let me know, I'm pretty sure. I will not be painting a picture of a sadistic terrible home wrecker, but I will let DS know that OW is bad, has made terrible choices and been very selfish, not considering the damage she was contributing to the downfall of a family.

I think it would be good for DS to know that his fathers' and the OW's choices are bad, unhealthy. Hopefully, this will help DS to distinguish between right and wrong as he grows older. Also, I hope to foster a sense of empathy in him; to look at the WHOLE of a situation prior to making MAJOR life decisions.

sl,



That is the million dollar question...I think over the past couple of months, I have come to the conclusion that I don't really want him back. I have realy been looking over our M and evaluating the highs and lows, etc. It was not ever that great. I loved him, but I do not know that I still love him, but the "ideal" of who he could be...That is just not realistic to who he has shown me he is for the last 14 years...

I am saddened when I think about coming to this decision, but I think you should be sad to come to that conclusion. I would question it more if Iwas enthusiastic about it...then I would know it is straight out of emotion.

Well, I guess I should get all this out on my own thread...sorry for the threadjack!

IHC

SL,

At his age he cannot comprend much when it comes to a D. If it happens.

I used to tell the FWW if we got a D eventually I would tell the kids about her A. When the time came.

You know every kid wants to know why mommy and daddy got a D. My answer would be because after mommy had an A, mommy and daddy couldn't agree on what daddy needed to recover.
So we got a D.

Short and simple. I think the problem is when do you say that?

I am so sorry he has to be a part of it.

We jsut started OS in IC because he seems off track. My honest opinion is it is the result of the A and the aftermath of the A.

It is like the gift that keeps on giving. LOL.

Good luck. The one thing I have faith in is your ability to deal with it when you need to.

I plan on letting DS come to me with questions and answering them as best I can, with little emotion. By the time he asks me about it, I hope enough time has passed that I am able to be direct and honest, and not fumble for words. I will have thought a lot about what I will say, I'm sure.

On another front, my WH keeps sending the same info about counseling for my son, over and over again. He emailed information about the counseling group last week (to which i did not reply), then he sent email stating he was setting up an appointment (again, no reply) then today, another email about him waiting to hear about his appointment ( no reply needed). I guess he's just trying to keep me informed. I really want to get help as quickly as possible, and I have found someone for DS, but it may be more cost effective for DS to go through WH's group.

Well maybe the WH is trying his best to address the problems he is creating.

I don't even know what to say about him taking DS to a couselor.

I know it is affecting him but only he knows how.

I wish you the best with this.

My FWW seem to be surviving this but it is still effecting the OS.

So I can't imagine what it is doing to your son.

I have an idea of what this is doing to my DS, and it pains me greatly! Like you said, Frog, some damage keeps coming, even when the M is recovered. It will take WH working with DS to help eradicate DS's issues.

I cannot take the damage away, I can only help my DS cope. His problems may worsen, he may turn inward, so I'm hoping to keep him talking. How do you tell a child, who's world is more black/white than gray, that his father's/mother's leaving is not about them? Kids don't rationalize, especially at my DS's young age. Even *IF* DS does not believe that HE is a part of why WH left, he will suffer from loss; a loss that he had no control over. His daddy still lives, and yet he is gone.

I was just an early toddler when my mother left my father, but my brother was 8 or 9 and my sister was 3 or 4. My sister has always talked about longing for her daddy. Her child's mind could not wrap around what abuse was, not then. She only felt the loss. She has also had many problems with R's. She's just now learning about boundaries from an Alanon type class. Unfortunately for my brother, he was fully aware of the abuse, and is also heavily damaged. In my mother's case, divorcing sooner would have been the better decision, but she had no support from family (her mother told her to stay), no money, no job, etc. She stayed until she could no longer take it.

My point is, when I hear my sister talk about 'losing' her daddy and the impact of not seeing him, she's that little girl again. She knows of what he was like, the physical and mental abuse, but that doesn't change her longing.

I agree that it will take the wH working with him.

My dad wasn't the greatest but I know what you mean about losing daddy after a D.

I think in most cases the loss is worse then them staying in a kids mind. A child in most cases doesn't know the difference between a good daddy/mommy and a bad mommy.

It is amazing though how easily they are damaged. Your DS has gone through a lot.

I can say at least being in IC will help identify the problem now instead of letting them grow.

Yes it seems as though the A is a gift that keeps giving to the people that don't want to be given any more.

After all of the talk, and all is said and done, my strongest hope is that I am relieved of the pain, so that I can love again. I want to cry tears of joy. I want to be comforted and to comfort. I want to feel like something other than mommy and coworker.

Who knew that life was pain? It seems like just yesterday that I was a child myself, so unaware of the 'adult' world. Living in a grown up world, feeling like a child with unrequited love.

I'm wondering when the day is that I'm going to give up. I remind myself that I'm not ONLY doing this for me, but for my son. I must hold on until I KNOW what I have to do. I'm not there, obviously.

I think I need a vacation...

And you will know. I had that moment. And what I HAD TO DO was not what I wanted... at all. I'm sure in God's eye I was the little two year old kicking and screaming the whole way.

I hear you. I know exactly what you mean. But you are strong. You know that this will happen for you. You know that you are good, smart, responsible, empathetic, loyal, desirable. You know that when this does happen for you, you will have earned it.

Your future is so much brighter than WH's. There is so much light at the end of the Limbo Tunnel (that you have chosen, because you are strong). You will get there.

I remind myself that what little hope I have is STILL hope. Sometimes, it feels like the candle in the wind, some days I feel like I've got a roarin' fire going. Today, the hope feels like an ember. Tomorrow it will grow into a small fire again.

I would like to go a day without rain. I feel like Forrest Gump, when he described his daily rountine, but then said, "at night, I think about Jenny". At night I think about poopsie wafflechunks.

Tomorrow, I will be going to the store to pick up fresh ingredients to make pesto for my GF who just had her baby. I know that they will be grateful to have something yummy to eat, and I do enjoy cooking for others. It's something I stopped doing during my M; cooking became a chore, because I was chasing and answering to a 2-3 year old whilst trying to accomplish something. I was so resentful then.

sdguy, thank you for the reminder that life goes on, even after all of this mess. Sometimes, I feel like a petulent child wanting that life to start NOW.

Yes... and without hope... there is nothing. You are amazing. I actually envy your calm. When I was going "through it" I was a basket case. Had I been like you I would have cut short the time of torment.

Keep that ember alive.. even if you have to blow on it when you feel you have no breath left. If nothing else you will know that you did NOT give up hope.

{{{SL}}}

SL - I raised my two boys alone, and have always been very honest with them, in an age appropriate way. I have never bad-mouthed their dad to them. However, I think your son at seven is old enough to know that there is another woman. When I think back to when I was seven, I remember being very wise. I knew when something was going on, even if my parents didn't tell me. Sometimes kids will know, but are afraid to talk about it.

SL

Homemade Pesto?? Send some my way!

I,too, luv to cook. I even got WS into it to where HE buys cookbooks and loves to show off his skills

I understand the ebb and flow of the hope.

I watched Forest Gump the other night and that SAME scene gave me the SAME thought!

Then, by lovely brother in law's comment came to mind. When he found out about WS being a WS , he told my sister to tell me "RUN, Forest, RUN!"

Although I can't do that, it still warms my heart and makes me laugh! Nice to know BIL cares that much

Keep those home fires burning! We can warm each other while keeping th 'hope' alive for the return of our H.

Silent,

Where would we all be without hope?

Tonight I told my mom that I would always have some hope that this will work out. Probably even for awhile after the D.

I can't imagine life without hope. Even the days I feel hopeless (like earlier today) that ember you talk about is always there.

Just wanted to say stay strong. I'll be leaving for my trip in the morning. Hug that little boy.

Still

Have a great trip, Still. I gave my boy lots of kisses and hugs, as usual. He has taken to giving me mucho kisses before bed and before I drop him off at day care. I get a kissy on the lips, one on each cheek, my nose, my chin and then my forehead. Then we do, "gimme five, up high, down low, TOO SLOW!"

He poured a cup of water over his head during his bath and looked up at me. He has a tinge of sun on his face from the short burst of warm weather we had, his pupils were very large and dark and the green of his eyes was glowing. I just thought, what a beautiful boy.



Close your eyes,
Have no fear,
The monsters gone,
He's on the run and your daddy's here,

Beautiful,
Beautiful, beautiful,
Beautiful Boy,

Before you go to sleep,
Say a little prayer,
Every day in every way,
It's getting better and better,

Beautiful,
Beautiful, beautiful,
Beautiful Boy,

Out on the ocean sailing away,
I can hardly wait,
To see you to come of age,
But I guess we'll both,
Just have to be patient,
Yes it's a long way to go,
But in the meantime,

Before you cross the street,
Take my hand,
Life is just what happens to you,
While your busy making other plans,

Beautiful,
Beautiful, beautiful,
Beautiful Boy,
Darling,
Darling,
Darling Sean.

John Lennon, Beautiful Boy

Silent I love that song...

Just watched Richard Dryfess sing and sign it to his deaf son in the movie..

Mr Somebody's Opus (can't remember the real title)

I cried.

I love my DD's, but my DS is the one who is the most affectionate with me. Even at 14,

Still

Mr. Holland's Opus.

Yesss that's it.

Thanks my middle aged mind.

Still

((((((((sl)))))))))
it makes me so sad to see you here. it scares me too, because I can very easily see my WS doing the same half-arsed recovery attempt as yours did, and then withdrawing again to the pretend world they are living in. I too have very little hope that WS will actually have the strength, courage and desire to walk over fire and do what will be neccessary to make a go at it. if I am honest with myself, that will probably never happen.



unfortunately, I am afraid that just showing up may not be enough anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I think someday I may be able to forgive all the hurt and pain, and be able to have a coparent R with WS, and I will always have love for her. but I don't really believe that I will ever feel safe in any real way with the person who she is. and to that end, she will never again have the pleasure of being close enough to me to really know me anymore. that is the gift she has chosen to discard. and even though they cannot see it now. WS's will never forgive themselves or their OW's for the destruction of their families. even if they never utter a word about regrets, they will forever know that it was their selfish, wanton behavior that has damaged their children forever.

I'm just trying my hardest to continue on with my life. I have informed WH that we need to look into cleaning up the yard, getting rid of overgrowth and such, to prepare for a time that we may have to sell. If we do sell, I want to benefit as much as possible.

I am still looking to talk to my lawyer about keeping the house, and giving my H remainder interest if I ever sell. I don't want to move if I don't have to, and that home is my son's. I try not to think to the future, as it currently makes me sad. My WH has settled back into my Plan B routine and is seemingly calm.

My neighbor moved out last month and is working on his house to put it on the market. I spoke to him yesterday for the first time in months; I told him about cleaning up the back yard, and he said, "You should make poopsie waffelchunks do that!" He did not know that my WH left. I didn't tell them. He had wondered if poopsie was travelling. He then gave me his cell phone number, his wifes and his home number. They only moved a few blocks up the street, so he said that I can call for ANYTHING, even if I just want a break. People can be so surprisingly wonderful. I'm lucky to know them.

I've been feeling down this week, but I think it has a lot to do with PMS, as well as Plan B sinking back in. I'm happy to have my whole bed (I really love my bed), but I'm dealing with reality, the pain in my son's heart, it all seems so hard right now. I didn't expect this. I guess I must still love the lug.

I have decided that I am going to beg borrow and steal and I am taking a beach vacation this year. My son will LOVE it, and my dogs will too! I've asked my dad to go and a good friend of mine, as well as my sister and brother. I'm going to shell out the cash for the house, and others will contribute to food. I need to get away, smell the ocean air, watch the waves break. I need that lift. I NEED a vacation!

sl,

A vacation does sound so very good right now. I can echo the need for one. It feels like if you could just get away from all of this for a few moments, you could have the strength and vitality needed to keep moving forward.

It would be like a wonderful breath of fresh air!

IHC

Silent,

May I make an observation? When my exH and I were divorcing, I too thought that I did NOT want to move, because I had worked long and hard to earn the 4000sq.ft. house with a pool--and my kids had paid dearly for it! By the same token, I knew that really I couldn't afford it on my own, and I would be forever "beholden" to him to pay his CS on time or else I'd get into financial trouble.

I HATED the thought of moving, but eventually concluded that I needed to sell the house and find my own place.

I turned this into a POSITIVE for me and my kids. We had had no notice and no say in the choice of our big house with the pool. ExH had literally bought it, and then INFORMED us we were moving...we had no idea! With the new place, I decided that we were in this together and we would all have a say in what we wanted and where we would go. The kids all wanted a place that took pets because we had already lost enough and could not stand the idea of losing our pets too. I agreed. The kids wanted to stay in their schools so they wouldn't lose their friends. I agreed. The kids each wanted their own room but they were cool with having a basement bedroom that was finished. I agreed to try. The kids hoped for a pool (they're both part human/part fish) so I agree to try. I wanted a place that had some neighbors and that had room for a garden. They agreed.

So, we began the house hunt TOGETHER, and we liked or disliked houses together. We decided that ALL THREE of us had to vote 'yes' on a place before we would accept it. And, after about a month of searching we found it: a townhouse with pets ALL OVER, a swimming pool and clubhouse, near a YMCA, in the kids' school area, and with a full bedroom upstairs for my daughter and a full bedroom in the basement for my son. Since each townhouse was owned, we had our own patio and small gardening areas in the backyard and the frontyard--plus I did a few flowerpots! So we found OUR place that was like claiming "We are still alive" after the divorce.

Silent, I tell you this not because I think you ought to move or not. That is your decision. Personally, I HATE moving, and would much rather put down roots and stay in one place. However, moving does not have to be a tragedy. We found OUR place and put up RED curtains and posters and had a blast decorating it our way (exH hated color--everything was beige or eggshell--yuck)! It could be that way for you and your little guy too. Moving is a little like moving on--at first you're afraid to do it, but when you do it, it feels a little freeing and exciting.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

I don't really hate the idea of moving; I have been looking at houses over the last two years, fantasizing about a new life. I was moved around quite a bit as a child, and am pretty root-bound right now, and I like it. Also, the area that I live in is quite expensive, but my house is older, and it's the home my WH grew up in, so he received the home as part of the settlement of his parents' will. We have since done some improvements on the home; that's why we have a mortgage.

The appliances, the boiler, the air handler/conditioner, the bathroom, all are new. The schools in this area are superb in the state of Maryland, and I like it here. If I move, I won't be able to afford a single family unit LIKE this one, and what I can afford will have me struggling. Part of the reason my WH wants to place is that he grew up here, but the home also has many amenities. WE have a nice, big yard for the dogs; our greyhound loves to run through it daily. It's a lot to give up. If I have to, I will, and I will find a great place to live, but IF I can avoid selling for a while, I'd like that.

It's not fear that would keep me from moving; we'd all adapt.

I've been feeling so very down this week, and I can't see any reason why this week is so different than last week. Maybe looking for vacation homes is a bringing it out, but I AM excited about going. Acceptance of the possiblity of D and never seeing H again is probably setting in. The thought of it causes me to tear up. It's really quite pathetic.

I'm having dinner with my GF and her husband. The GF worked with me up until she went into labor last week, and she gave her notice; she will not be returning. It will be a nice break. I prepared Pesto for them, and I will be taking all of the acoutrement over and preparing it in their kitchen. It'll be nice to give them this gift. It's really tough getting used to that first baby, and having a home-cooked meal is awesome, so that's the gift I chose for them. I also hope to foster a closer relationship with them, as they have been so gracious to me. (This is the GF that I stayed with two weeks ago when I had WH stay at our home with our DS for his visitation).

I'm feeling overwhelmed with emotion, really; that's all there is to it. This will pass. I WANT to stop thinking of my H, I want to let go, but am having a hard time this week. As my drill seargent would say, "you gotta suck it up,C, and carry on!"

I know some people will roll their eyes, but I become HIGHLY emotional when I'm nearing the end of my cycle. It's a bear when I'm already dealing with some emotional stress. I hope to chant my way through this next few days.

Hi SL,

Sorry to hear your down a little this week. That seems to be going around a little. I understand the acceptance issue. I am feeling that too. I seem to have gone from a position of aimlessly wondering how long it will take to get to acceptance to wanting and willing it to happen.

The vacation will be great. I have a bunch of time and have not planned a thing although DD19 and I are talking about a late summer trip to Minnesota to bring my Mom's ashes home.

Stay strong Wonder Woman. There is a brighter tomorrow (or maybe the next day anyway).

I'm critical of myself, and sometimes feel quite pathetic when I WANT my M to work out. I can see how other people feel, but I can't seem to sync up with their rage. I'm angry and disappointed. I'm ashamed of my H. ASHAMED! I keep thinking, 'What a disappointment HE turned out to be'.

Question is, why do I give a HOOT?! Why?

I'm fakin it right now, so I can make it through another day. I just need to nail this vacation thing down. Then, I have to register my son for school. DS's birthday is coming up, so I'll be planning for that, too. Some great things are happening this year, so I just have to perservere this WEEK...

I haven't been doing one day at a time, my mind is on overdrive.

SL -

Ah honey! I know how hard it can be!

It really is BEST to do one day at a time, but it is not easy.

You need to pamper yourself and get back to being the Goddess you are.

You have worked hard on yourself. Enjoy and celebrate yourself and your accomplishments!

That is what the focus of this journey needs to be about first and foremost.

I am striving to be the Best ME - the one that WS will want, of course. However, it is to be be the best ME for ME first. That is whay will make my life a success.

Hopefully, it will be with my H.

I am having a rather down day myself. I am starting LSA proceedings, and worry that it is the slippery slope to losing him forever

But, I know it is the right thing to do. Despite my worries, despit my fear, despite what everyone says.

I have to be true to me. Just like you are being true to yourself. Doing the best we can and knowing whatever the outcome we are strong women who have done all we can to do the right thing

Embrace yourself. Be proud of yourself.

Wish I had some good vibes to send, but I seem to be running low. Vacation. Vacation is good.

What's the weather like? Can you go for a soak in the hot tub?

Bugsmom, you are a pillar of strength! We're human, and live in the ebb and flow. LSA proceedings are hairy, but necessary to protect our lives in a time of utter turmoil. YOU are doing the smart, savvy thing. You will see. It's like exposure, after the inital uproar, there's just a kitty sitting in front of you meowing.

Sdguy, don't feel much like tubbing it tonight (I know, oh POOOOOOR SL, pooooor baby, doesn't feel like hot tubbing it!) I'm j ust goi ng to h ave my V ino and hiccup!o What was I talking about. SYKE! It's just one glass! I'm being a good girl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Question is, why do I give a HOOT?! Why?"

The easy answer is you love him..give yourself a break WH just stomped on your heart again...and to make matters worse your DS is hurting and as his Mom you want to take his pain away. (((((SL))))) you are a great person

A vacation sounds like a great idea and the beach part even sound better

((((SL))))

Tough week, huh?

Your words are, again, mine. I sit and read, nodding my head.

Just wanted to give you a little incentive to "suck it up." I had the week from he!! just before spring break (really busy at work and WH was AWOL). I was almost to the point of not looking forward to our trip to DC...but was just going to do it out of determination, with gritted teeth. Besides, I had already told the kids.

Turns out I had a great time...and as IHC said...a breath of fresh air. I felt like a new person afterwards! It was so worthwhile; I am so very glad we went. We stayed in Gaithersburg...should have come by to visit!

And the hormonal tsumani will pass. It's this time of the month that even getting day to day becomes a struggle, and it reverts back to hour by hour...when on the good days, life is full of possibilities.

At least for me. And not that it does you a lick of good in the moment.

Hugs. That help?

Every little bit of encouragement helps. Knowing that we all are in the trenches, and can truly understand and reach for the right words, that helps.

Sis, I do so look forward to a vacation. I know I will feel rejuvenated, and to fill my sons week with the joys of the beach, building sand castles and flying kites and shopping for kitschy stuff in the local shops and flip flops and sand everywhere, and those beautiful sunrises over the water, and watching the dolphins swim by.

Had a correspondence with WH about his weekend visitation, as well as any headway on getting help for our son. He got a bit personal in his email, stating that he was looking for and wanted/needed help in a big way, that he wanted to be a better father to his son, and that he wanted to see the sunshine again. I was so tempted to respond that the best thing for his son was to come home.

silent...

You are going through the ups and downs again because you are still having to have contact with your WH...he is still showing signs of uncertainty...he still doesn't know what he really wants. All of this is too much for us to carry. When things settle down and the contact, even about DS, is slowed, you will begin to get strong, like the silent we all know and admire.

Hormaone are from the pit of he!!. That was the worsdt time for me as well...sometimes it would hit me and then last all month...it wouldn't go away when it "should" have!

Just know that the sunny days are coming again soon and you will feel like you again..

You are an amazing woman and mom and will reap the fruit of all this labor one day!

IHC

Part of the reason I have been keeping up with asking about headway with finding a counselor is so that we can schedule things and I can go darker. There have been two emails this week, and, of course, unsolicited info about WH's pain right now.

I think it was LG who said his next email would be today. I expected to correspond about DS, as WH is not taking him for overnights, so I needed drop off and pickup times, and I asked about any movement on the counselor front--THAT WAS IT! This is the third time that WH has mentioned something about HIM needing counseling BADLY. I don't ask about him.

SL,

You are doing great! It is not really possible to run a completely dark Plan B at all times when there are kids involved. You even asked that question recently in a thread and got no real help out of it. I am probably one of the few of the Killer Bees who can run a nearly perfect dark Plan B because my kid is not a factor. I really feel for some of you others.

You are forced into a lot of decisions regarding the welfare of your son and how that fits into a dark Plan B. In the end you need to do what is best for your son and that’s what you have always done. Unfortunately this does expose you to occasional WS wah wah boo hoo. Stay strong and be the shield. But……

It does sound like he is thinking a little more now. Make it as dark as you can and if occasionally it has to be a mere “twilight” Plan B that’s the way it is. Don't beat yourself up when it is out of your control.

silent,

I wasn't saying it was something you could control...just trying to help you remember why you were on this rollercoaster emotionally again. You are going through this right now because it IS in the BEST interests of your son. I just wanted to encourage you to know that there is an end to this time. we all go through it and I just wanted to remind you that it WILL end.

i hope you didn't take my words differently than that.

Do you have any great weekend plans?

Thanks Chris, I do keep things very businesslike, no talk, just relating facts. I communicate all I can in one email so that there isn't a lot of back and forth.

I'm doing much better this afternoon, and am looking forward to spending time with friends and their new baby.

I do hope that, in the least, WH is opening his eyes to DS's pain and accepting that he must help him heal in order for DS to become more stable.

Oh by the way, I did notice that a lot of KB’s were feeling down this week, including myself. One of the factors for me has been Hikers wonderful thread on romantic affairs. It has been like reading a clinical report on the disease that is killing (killed?) my marriage. There is so much in there that is so exact to my marriage that it is very humbling. Particularly the mid-life crisis post.

Oh, Chris, that has been something that I noticed myself. The thread doesn't offer much hope; it offers reality.

We have people rooting us on daily, to hold firm and stay dark and pray for our M to be recovered. Reality is a completely different animal. Reality is that recovery rates aren't soaring through the roof, and we must all make the decision ALONE of how to proceed.

I appreciate Hiker's perspective and his thorough research. The MLC post hit me hard, as well as the notion that many never leave this state of mind; that it is a lifestyle change that the WS believes in. That does not bode well. The fact is that many people who go to Plan B on this site are dealing with spouses in Romantic affairs. My mother's affair with my, now, stepdad, was romantic, and resulted in M. They were together for 14 years, married for 5, when my mother died.

That is exactly right. I know it is not the MB way but I am fully convinced that my marriage has no hope at all. It is a romantic affair, it is a midlife crisis, it started as a chance EA but became an exit affair and even if the affair ends WW will pursue her new lifestyle and will not want me anywhere near it. On top of that, Wayzilla is the most stubborn human I have ever met. She will not admit defeat or error.

But at least I know this and I learned it all here. That’s why I keep coming back. It’s not really to save my marriage any longer, it’s to learn how to move on.

Yep. I had/have a hard time reading Hiker's thread. It's great stuff . . . for those who don't know it. I devoured it the first time he posted it and passed along a condensed version to friends and relatives who didn't understand romantic affairs.

This time, however, it's like reading an autopsy report on myself.

I, honestly, would not have chosen Plan B, if it weren't for my attachment to H. That's not to say that I cannot take care of myself or my son, no sir. He is the love of my life, but my life has been only 35 years so far. Now, I could plan my own MLC, being as my mother died when she was a mere 54 years old, but, meh, I choose to just love and live.

I don't need to go spreading myself around to enjoy every day in every way.

I would not BE in plan B if I did NOT want recovery. I, sometimes foolishly, hope that my M can survive, but, let's face it, there is an awful lot to survive. Three EA's (two of which were/are PA's) in 2 years, abandonment of our child, abandonment of me and OUR life, and so on, Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

What Hiker speaks of are the things that aren't really talked about too much here, although a bad outcome is the PURPLE ELEPHANT in the room. When we arrive, we are all so shaken, and for quite a long time, long for recovery. After a while, especially in Plan B, with no real DRAMA, we begin to realize just how serious the sitch is.

I don't want to discourage anyone from trying, with all they have, against all odds, to recovery---HOWEVER---

it takes two...

Yep,

I am pouring you both a cyber bourbon.

Cheers SD, SL.

I haven't read that post yet, but I think that may be why I am where I am right now.

I am seeing this in very real terms...and have discovered H was not who I thought he was.

He also was on the verge of an affair at least 3 times before this...one that he confessed to (had chosen the woman he was going to be unfaithful with, stopped wearing his ring, etc.) the other 2 I just knew in my heart something was up.

I'm sorry if anything I am moving towards has discouraged anyone. You all have been so helpful and supportive, especially on days when I did not have the strength to go on.

I think you keep holding on and fighting until you cannot do it anymore.

IHC

Slainte!

amen! so when is the point that you say "enough" I guess that point is different for everyone. It is uncanny how we can go through different cycles of emotions.

the sad thing for me is that I have gone from my emotions vassilating on a daily basis....one day wanting Recovery, the next saying "no way". now, I am more consistent in my feelings. the more i am away, the more i want to stay away, not just from WS but my spouse as well. the more distance and the more clarity I get, the more I see how WS did not fill my needs before the A, even after I identified them. why would she now? I keep asking myself that. I don't want WS, I don't want my old spouse either. I want a new one...one who WANTS to fill my needs. one who thinks I am worth it.



huh? is that french???

Slainte is IRISH! It means "To your health". Meanwhile, you slug a drink down.

Fighting, my future with H is bleak. I am beginning to become detached from him. I feel awful for not caring about his well-being right now. I'm pretty angry with him and have been so betrayed by him. I also don't really know if he loves me at all anymore, which is okay, such is life. I'm still not clear, but those nails keep getting pounded into the coffin. I'm still pretty opened to recovery, but it would take WS pushing me toward it. I have been trying to reign him in for so long now, I'm pretty tired.

I'm not really sad about that. I think it's much more healthy behavior from me. I want him to WANT ME.

Mimi has expressed this to many in the past, including me, and I never FELT IT. I feel it now. I want him to want me, outside of that, let's take care of business.

I will not end my Plan B, and will probably always have some semblance of Plan B type detachment from WH for the rest of my life, after all, I have loved him for half of my life, and no amount of time can erase that.

Oh, anybody reading this, something OT.

I wanted to change my answering machine to reflect the happy home and Mom and kiddo. Any suggestions for the outgoing message?

SL,

After hearing about the BBQ at Infidel Hotel yesterday I could literally feel a huge detachment instantly release. Like a couple sandbags from a hot air balloon. My feelings are fading like a morning mist at sunrise. Emotionally I am moving on. Plan B.

I agree though that mine will more likely be a fairly permanent Plan B as well. If nothing else just to respect the incredible happy years we had as a couple and a family after DD was born. It is amazing to believe that Wayzilla can not remember any of the good.

Regarding your new message does DS4 have any favorite characters or themes?

"Hi, you've reached CJ and kiddo's house. We're not home but you're important to us, so tell us where we can reach ya, and we'll call when we get back from the beach."

Or how about

"Hi! You've reached CJ and Kiddo. We're at the beach having fun. You know what to do--we'll call you back!"

Or how about

"You've reached 123-4567. CJ and Kiddo are not home right now but we wish we hadn't missed your call. Please leave us your name and number and we'll call you back!"

Or how about

"Hi, this is CJ and Kiddo! SPEAK!"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

We had a phone message where we all said our own name and then ended it with we are having to much fun to come to the phone right now so if you leave a message we might get back to you when the fun is over.

People that had the wrong number would leave messages and say how cute the message was.

I like the CC(my initials) and Kiddo, SPEAK!

Hmmm, my DS L L L L LOVES Star Wars.

Chris, I get what you are saying about detachment. I don't even hear about my WH AT ALL. The fact that he is residing with and sleeping with YET ANOTHER woman does not, however, escape my attention. Plan B isolates me, so I do not have to witness it, but I can imagine him with her out with who I thought were my friends too (although WS has ever so lovingly let me know that these people only care for him; why WOULD they care about me? OUCH, say I!).

I don't think about it obsessively, but I do think about it. Even if it's not permanently, WH has moved on. I'm learning to let go. I can't be his coach in this, and I was a fool to believe that I was. I'm learning, ever so slowly, and growing up a bit each day.

I'm truly doing everything alone now. I don't have weekends off without DS anymore, so I'm having to struggle a bit with being tired, but I'll get used to it. It's really not that big of a deal. I kept him home from daycare today, just to spend a little extra time and get a breather for myself. We talked a bit this morning about DS changing daycare, about renting the beach house and about his upcoming birthday and starting school.

WE also just played three rousing games of CandyLand, he won 2 out of 3 games.

I received an email from WH today regarding his appointment with the counselor (WH's appointment). He will be going Thursday, and is supposed to find out about care for our son then. He also mentioned that he will no longer talk about how HE is feeling in emails, as he knows that I am in Plan B (he's read some of the website), and he wants to respect that.

Well, I responded.

I said that I didn't understand why anyone would want to discuss intimate details of their personal well-being with someone that they do not want in their life. I said that he could discuss these things when he wants me, forsaking ALL others, forever. I also said that I think he misunderstands Plan B.

Out of Surviving an Affair



Some people don't get it...

Also, I think, for now, I'm just a bit tired of attempting to build a M that doesn't exist.

I have to accept that Plan B isn't going to work for recovery. I may have endured too much pain to wait. It is painful to wait for the crumbs that come in the beginning of recovery. It is crumbs, when you watch your spouse go through withdrawal because, sick or twisted or otherwise, they are in love with the OP. I'm examining how much more pain I can take. Pride gets in the way, too, and until I can set that aside and make a clear decision, I'm stuck. Pride tells me to D, and like TODAY, even.

I still feel like an idiot for believing my WH, and allowing him back into my life. I shot myself in the foot on that one, and PRIDE stings...

P.S. I would love to save my M, still, to this day, but I'm understanding that that makes ONE of US...

"I would very much like to discuss your feelings with you. I know that we didn't do enough of that before and that it is critical for us in rebuilding our marriage. Let me know when you end it with OW."

In your best Yoda voice "You've reached CC and DS, but we are busy with our Jedi training. A message you should leave. Return your call we will."

Good one sdguy. I'll have to practice the Yoda voice.

Oh, I got a reply from WH. All he said was 'Good point'. I guess that's an answer, from which I infer that he won't be talking to me, because he doesn't want me in his life. Meh, like I said, I kind of expected that. It will be good to have a bit of silence, so, like Chrisner said, I can retain the great memories of my life with my DH and son, without marring them with my NOW life with WH any further.

I will now shed a few tears, as per usual, and get on with the rest of my day.

I guess I'm befuddled as to why WH talks about wanting to 'see the sun shine again' if he's happy without me. Confusing.

Hopefully, this email will stop the details that he has given. Believe me, inside myself, I happily take the crumbs and eat them, even though I'm no longer asking for them. I would just much prefer to have a clean plate...

"I still feel like an idiot for believing my WH, and allowing him back into my life. I shot myself in the foot on that one, and PRIDE stings"...

(((((SL)))))

You are not an idiot your WH is...you did what any of us would do...you love him you want your DS to have the family he deserves.

I think you are an incredible women...one day your WH will wake up and see what he lost.

sdg...thats it.....its great SL!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so my next issue. WH STILL has not moved his stuff out. It has been over a month. What's the deal?

Make a sign that says "STBXH Stuff" Everything must go!!!! Today only.

Take your digital camera out and take a picture of the sign. Email the sign to STBXH with just the subject "This sign will be used next saturday unless other arrangemens are made.

Good luck.

Boxing up and moving Wayzilla’s crap out to the garage was one of the best therapies I have had in Plan B.

I think she believed she could come and get a little at a time now and then. She was shocked when she got there and it was all packed and ready to go. It took me and DD19's boyfriend 15 minutes to load her van and send her on her way.

When she came inside it was all neat and clean and rearranged and redecorated. Like she had never even lived there.

Thanks frog.

Hmmm, I had heard of others getting storage units and putting the WS's things in it, but I don't want to pay for it, or get charged a monthly storage fee when WH does not pay.

I was thinking of telling him to come get it or FORFEIT anything in the house after next week.

SL,

You won't be on the hook. Someplaces offer first month free or a dollar.

So you can let him know where he is paying rent.

So you go to say public storage. Rent a Small Storage space and pay the first month.

If he doesn't pay they keep the stuff in the locker.

Easy.

Here's the kicker Chris, his stuff has been in the garage for months now, since my original forray into Plan B. I bagged his stuff up and put it in the garage. He has piece-mealed this crap out of here, and most of it is still here.

There are things that he listed that he wanted that I would be happy to keep, but in the interest of finishing the LSA, I would like for him to get his [censored] out of here. I feel like I'm being used, and it pisses me off. Whenever I go out to the garage, which will be more and more often as the weather changes and the mowing season takes hold, I have to see his stuff. It's like a constant reminder of how I have coddled WH all of this time.

I actually question myself, is this a control thing? I feel like I'm trying to control my environement, and seeing his things is a part of my environment. Seeing his things gives me all this false, stupid, illogical hope. I feel like hope only strings me along. Can anybody tell that I'm truly tired of this whole drama of 'breaking up'. Pulling little hairs out one by one with the slow removal of the bandage.

I was looking at having a storage place drop off one of their units, filling it with his stuff, and then having them come and get it.

I feel like this is my last step in letting go, and I feel I really need to do it.

And I am sure him leaving them there gives him the sense that he still has one foot in the M. That when he takes the stuff there is a finality to it.

So let him know there is. Make a final date through your A and his A.

Here's my suggestion SL:

I have repeatedly requested that you remove your things from the garage. To date, my requests have been ignored. This is to notify you that anything still in the garage as of April 22nd will be placed in a storage unit with one month's rental and the location of the storage unit will by sent to you certified mail--along with the bill for having to move property that is your responsibility. Thereafter, you can get it from storage or let it go as you wish."

Then, you wait until April 22nd. If he does not get his stuff, you do not pack it all up. You let MOVERS from the storage unit do it and bill him. You arrange for one month's storage at a storage unit, and you send the unit number and the bill to him via certified mail.

The end. His sh*t is out of your life, and if he does not go get it from storage, that is HIS problem not yours. If he loses everything, that is HIS problem not yours.

Move along!



~~CJ

That's why I got rid of it all in one shot. She knew she was picking up some furiture so borrowed a 14' panel van from work. She just was not expecting me to fill it to the roof.

In your situation I like frogs idea. I have seen those cheap 1st month deals too.

No it's not a control issue. If he wanted to leave then he should not be leaving his crap for you to trip over.

CJ, I like the plan. I will have to find out if there is some kind of fee if I cancel, in case WH comes to the house and picks up his stuff.

Frog, you are right. He tipped his hat on this one before I let him come home this time. He said that he didn't know if it was me asking him to move his stuff, but he didn't want that, he wanted to discuss coming home.

Problem was, he didn't fulfill my Plan B liftage requirements, so here we are, with his stuff STILL HERE. I think this will be a violent shove into reality for him. #1--he no longer lives here AT ALL
#2--I have made the choice to move him out
#3--money money money. More money going out.

Since none of these issues really is about recovery, I am no longer conerned about them. It hurts me to know this, but, hey, sometimes, reality bites. I've goten many bitemarks over the last two years to prove it.

silent...

(Warning: SARCASM ALERT)

Why are you making your WH get his things...don't you know how hard this time has been for him? Why are you expecting him to do stuff that you always do for him? Man, you are so cold!!!

LOL - they can never get their head out of the butts long enough to see reality and what they need to do in it!

I am sorry you are so down right now. I know it stinks! But you are strong and you will be back stronger than ever...I believe it!

(((((SL))))

IHC, I am waiting for karma to come around for me. I'm ready. I have been doing what I think is right, not hurting others along the way, helping where I can. I have made some good, new friends (good karma coming around). Now, I need something big. I need my heavy heart to lift up with my breath and not fall. I need to let go.

I hurt, and I want to stop hurting. There is no miracle. I can be busy from sunup to sundown, and have a great day, but the underlying feeling is sadness. It's not the meds, or lack of exercise. I get out of bed, and I interact, and laugh, truly laugh, with others, and I do feel joy in some moments.

My DS brings joy to me with every smile and laugh, but the undercurrent is still there. It's strange, and unsettling. I don't want to live like this. I have said this before, and hope someday that the feeling will change, but I feel like I've lost an apendage in some horrific accident. I'd like to not feel like this anymore.

(((((SL)))))


"I choose life!" - Sid the Sloth from Ice Age

Thanks, friend.

I think what I am feeling today is the product of just needing a lot of love.

I'm kinda tired of being so grown up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

SL,

This too shall pass. My FWW tells me that is an AA saying. LOL.

It will. I think everyone should aspire to have a great life. My point is nobody deserves that. Nobody is entitled to that.

Just like nobody deserves a bad life. They just make it happen in a lot of cases.

If the apendage will kill you sometimes it is necessary to remove it. Then you look and say I wish I still had it but if I kept it then I would be dead.

There are great people out in the world. You hold value, lots of it. Don't undersell yourself. Just because not everyone sees how valuable you are doesn't make you less valuable.

If you have ever watched the Antique road show, no I am not calling you an antique, people walk in with a thing a ma bob they bought for 5 bucks at a garage sale and it is worth like 100k. Just because the original person didn't know it wasn't worth 100k didn't make it so.

I always want to see the Antiques road show have an episode where they find the person that sold it for 5 bucks. LOL.

That would be like your WH.

Thanks Frog! That was a good post. It helped emmensely.

silent,

I know the feeling and it feels so freeing when it lifts. I feel like I can breath again...like I am truly alive. This is not just since my decision, but over the last month or so..

I cannot remember the last time I felt like this...it was a very long time ago...but I am so glad to have it.

I know that your time is coming...and it will be amazing when it comes! And that you soooooo deserve it.

IHC

SL-

Where did you meet that Frog guy was it on teh corner with Mrs. W? I hear it's a popular spot...I think weaver was there too! It must be the spot where wisdom is handed out?!?!?!

LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Frog, that helped me too today!

I agree with the rest of the lot...you DESERVE it...in due time...in due time...

Oh, how I hear you. It's so unfair and wrong and hurtful. But you know that good things are ahead. You *know* that.

Your post was great, Frog.

(((SL)))

(((((((((silent))))))))))

I hear you loud and clear.

and speaking of karma....don't forget that what goes around comes around....I wonder what crap the WH is going to come upon:)

yours is coming.....keep believing....don't let anyone steal your peace.

Frog.....great post....good for all the bees!!

Thanks everybody. It was good to get all of that crap out of my head yesterday. It was a down day.

Luckily, I had my DS here to cheer me up with his smile.

Sl,

Glad you are having a better day. Amazing what the kids can do.

Mine were always my light to help me realize no matter how it ended something beautiful came about because of it that made all the pain worth it.

Above is another message received from WH. I have bolded what I'm looking for...

...'and miles to go before I sleep'...

((((((SL)))))

Thinking of you today. Sometimes I think it is better that my hope is gone. This email from your WH has to keep that little thread of hope alive, how could it not? Letting go is easier when the hope has dwindled.

At this point, I'd be thrilled just with the acknowledgement from my WH that he messed up and is sorry. Right now, he doesn't think he is wrong and he is certainly not sorry.

You are a great lady, SL. Happiness will find you.

Fox

Did this just come in?

Very interesting email. Can you keep waiting for him to "turn words into actions"?

I am in Plan B for a reason beyond moving on. I'm in Plan B to LET GO, to which I am doing.

Plan B= holding vigil with my little ember, fanning it lovingly now and then. When I lose all hope, I will let it die. I'm not prepared to give up just yet, but I'm not going back into anything without him fixing HIS problems without prompting from me. He's grown and probably should learn how to HEAR himself. He can't fix his M without knowing about himself.

Fox, I still hear, from your own posts, that you still think of your H, and maybe to some extent, wish he would show up. I also hear that all of the combative conversations and struggles you have had are emptying that love bank. Separate the Wayward from the H. They are not the same.

((((((SL))))))) Stay strong

I have heard this from WH before, so I'm not inclined to lend it too much credence. It's really all him now. I hope he can make it back, but I'm not banking on him CHOOSING to fall out of love with OW and come home.

I know that he doesn't WANT to break up his family, but he currently IS. I need some serious show from him. He's still living with OW, sleeping with OW, hanging out with friends WITH OW, having a great time with OW. I don't see him family in that pic at all.

So, like I said, the ember is still hot...

I read that email a few times now. How can he live like that? If there was any sincerity in it at all you think it would totally destroy a person.

You have been very strong for a very long time now SL. Your day will come. It really will.

I think it is destroying him. He will either get help and get out of his toxic cycle, or he will lose himself in it completely.

Have you ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come". Well, I liken my WH's current state to the time when Robin Williams characters wife was in h3ll, and slowly forgetting her life (after she killed herself), slowly forgetting her H and children. His character traversed h3ll to find her, and at one point, he decided to join her, to not leave her alone, even though he would be driven mad.

WH is the wife in that analogy. He is losing sight of his existence. He has suffered much loss in his life, and was looking to feel good. Well, in that carpricious moment, he ruined his life. I suppose there are many Waywards that get to this point. I think many ignore this pain and move on, not looking back at the path of destruction. ( I will not be joining him in h3ll, so don't worry about me losing my mind) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know, deep, right?

Well, here's the thing, when my H pops his head up, I KNOW HIM. He's asking me to hold on, without asking. I'm holding on, DESPITE his asking. He MAY NOT make it out of the fog, he may succomb to it's grasp and never return again. I think this is truly his last chance to survive and he knows it.

It's got to be a bad time to wake up and know that you did this ALL. Again, I would never relish his position. I am pained regularly and his choices are probably 3/4 of that pain, but I pain myself, too, by expectations. Those are pretty low these days.

Let's put it this way. I have to pay my lawyer a retainer to keep her, and the time has come to pay again. I will be cutting that check. The time has come to move WH's things out of our home and claim it to be my space ALONE. It is me letting go. Que sera, sera...

You know me. I probably would have related it to a Harpo and Chico Marx scene or Bill Murray's Carl Spackler vs the groundhog in Caddyshack.

.....Whatever will be will be

"...The Dalai Lama, himself...; "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consiousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.!"

"License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations....To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint......They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong."

Maybe LilSis can call RT the Varmint Cong...

"So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote." - Carl Spackler

That's why I keep coming back here; superior intelligence and superior firepower.

(((Silent))),

Just catching up on your thread. And I feel alot of what you feel. At times I thought plan B wasn't suppose to hurt as much.

I too feel like I lost an appedage. I felt it even more during this trip I took with DD... we had fun. But going through the airports I felt I really needed him
there with me. And it hit really big time.

Still

{{{SL}}} I can relate, I felt the same during my ordeal only I wasn't in ANY plan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. It just feels like they're lost forever. I got to the point where you are now. I could have easily chosen to walk away then, but I didn't. Believe me, it was so very very hard. You can only do what's best for you and only you know what that is.

Just thinking about you and praying for the best outcome for YOU.

SL, your response to his email is entirely appropriate, but I think it is a reason to keep occasionally fanning that ember. It's positive. Give it time. You can do it--you are incredibly strong and know your own self-worth.

Weird place for me today. The only movie quotes I can think of are from Unforgiven or "Say hello to my little friend" from Scarface. What's that all about?

Still, you did a good thing, taking those steps to venture out on your own, and the worst that happened was being triggered and feeling a NEED. Well, you made it home safe and sound, and hopefully, you had some good laughs while away.

ooooo, Chris, good one...I'll remember that one daily.

princessmeggy, I was hoping you would check in. Following your story has given me a touch more hope that I did not have before. Receiving unsolicited communications such as I posted, from my WH, give me insight. They, by no means, make anything better, or propel my M into the recovery realm.

I will stay in Plan B until such a time that I am in recovery or after a D, and in that case, I will always have to protect myself from WH, because I do love my H, and will not want to have the pain of watching him with OP for a long time; probably not until I move on with someone else myself.

princess, I look forward to you posting more on your story. It really does help.

Plan B is still appropriate at that point, Jennifer tells me, because if you have to move on, you will need to protect your new relationship from this one.

You're not there yet, though.

sdguy, the quote that I always have rummaging around in my head, just waiting for the right opportunity is "Go to the mattresses" from the Godfather. It is so appropriate here.

I also have, "just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming, what do we do, we swim..." from Dory in FINDING NEMO.

or, one of my faves, good ole Dirty Harry "You gotta ask yourself, 'Do I feel lucky?'. Well, do ya, PUNK!"

OR just about anything from Tommy Boy (I heard a niner in there, were you calling from a Walkie-Talkie?) or When Harry Met Sally (Sheldon can do your taxes, but humpin and pumpin is not Sheldon's strong suit), or The Holy Grail (BRING US....A SHRUBBERY!!)

sdguy, like I said to you, if you feel insincerity when you talk to someone, as with your wife, then there is a hole in that ship of theirs. Your wife shows no real conviction here, no strength in purpose. Regret may start to be a constant bedfellow of many a WS dealing with Plan B.

Oooo, thanks for filling me in with what Jennifer says about Plan B. I always sensed that it was what would be best for me if things ended. Not to hold on to the love anymore, but the protection aspect.

I will try to look for solice there as Panzergruppfuehrer Wayzilla's column of King Tiger tanks overrun my sandbag berm. My official Red Ryder carbine action two-hundred shot Range model air rifle with a compass in the stock that tells time can't seem to stop them. Oh well, I'd probably just shoot my eye out anyway.

To quote Arthur's Knights after their gallant charge on the bunny, "Run Away!!"

Okay, that helps.

"It means Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes."

"Skipper, shouldn't we tell them the ship is out of gas?" "Just smile and wave, boys. Smile and wave."

"What? Behind the rabbit?" "No, it IS the rabbit." "He's got a mean streak in him a mile wide."

Not relevant, but makes me feel a bit better.

Oh, man...you beat my rabbit quotes.

At least yours was relevant, though.

A Madagascar, what a great flick...

King Arthur "One, two, five!"
knave: "Three sir"
King Arthur: "Three!" Then he lobbeth the Holy Hand Grenade

the Grail always makes me giggle with childish glee.

A Grail fan, too? Good thing you're on the other coast.

Brother Maynard, from the Book of Armaments: ". . . . who, having been naughty in Mine eyes, shall snuffeth."

Bedivere: How do you know she's a witch?
Rabble: She LOOKS like one.

Maybe have to dig that out tonight. Funniest movie ever made.

Oh, geez, I love the part about figuring out how she's a witch. I especially like the "Trojan Bunny" and all of the 'power' tools used to build it.

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system!"

"I fart in your general direction" This one I use pretty often, you pig-dogs...

"Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries."

"Go away, or I shall taunt you a second time."

"I told him we've already got one."

"Help, help, I'm being oppressed."

"Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?"

"Later on, after the French have gone to sleep, Lancelot, Galahad, and I leap out of the rabbit, surprising them"

"WHO leaps out of the rabbit?"

"Lancelot, Galahad, and I . . . oh . . . perhaps if we built a giant, wooden badger."

Okay...must stop now...

It really is the funniest movie. I think I'm going to watch whatever I can of that tonight, just to laugh mine [censored] off.

"On second thought, Let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place."

That one made me laugh out loud. Thanks!

"and often times, we're given rhymes, that are quite unpronouncABLE"

I'm still laughing.

All that dancing and singing, and jumping on tables.

And, don't get me started on the Python series and the Spanish inquisition.

You are going to be just fine, sdguy. You are going to have a great time with your friends, and relieve some stress and get ready for round 5. Ding Ding!

Have a great time SD. Round 5 is where the waywards are promoted to Panzerkamphgruppfuehrers and are issued King Tigers (Porsche Model Turrets with 88L MM). You sort of need to rest for that.

I should have guessed you both are Python fans. Only I am old enough I went to The Holy Grail at the theater during it's original release. My word I'm Old.

SL, whats the odds of you coming to Bob's in LA for the MB party July 14th. DD19 and I are going!

SL, if possible, could you email me, please?

Thanks,
Neak

you_neak@yahoo.com

Man, Chris, that would be awesome! You Cali people sicken stink. You're like blonds, you have all the fun...

Neak, done.

Thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was just getting ready to hunker down in bed and watch me some Holy Grail, so I go out to the living room and open up the DVD storage cabinet. I had forgotten that WH had taken some DVD's with him; well the Grail is gone. POOP.

Cheer up SL, it's not like we are being crucified. Remember:

Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...

If life seems jolly rotten
There's something you've forgotten
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you're feeling in the dumps
Don't be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...

For life is quite absurd
And death's the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it's your last chance anyhow.

So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath

Life's a piece of ******
When you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show
Keep 'em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

And always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the right side of life...
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the bright side of life...
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life...
(I mean - what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That is the worst news I've heard all day.

I'll buy you a new copy and bring it to the Big Boy Fest. . . .

Perfect, Chris

It's best when you whistle with the tune.

I truly hope that, upon my death, I find some way to have them rolling in the aisles, even if it means coating the floor with marbles...

Boo hoo, I know, such a kick in the pants. Oh well, it gives me time to practice my new song for bedtime with my DS; John Lennon's "Beautiful Boy" (even if the writer was a WH, it's a beautiful song about a child)

John Lennon Beautiful Boy

Ok, guys, SL did a bad bad thing and I need to tell you all, I broke my Plan B today. I sent my WH an email.

Not out of anger, but frustration with his vasalations. The email that I referred everyone to yesterday began to gnaw at me. The email that I sent stated many things about the past two years and where I am with all of that today. I told him that I believe he is afraid of losing the OW and losing me, and one of those statements was, eventually, going to be true. I told him to stop talking and DO (in whatever he is going to do).

I don't know that this constitutes a shift to Plan FU, but I'm sick and tired of his not wanting to hurt anybody, trying to hold me in wait while he F's me more and more.

Here's the problem with me, and I'm not going to stop being me, I don't take too kindly to people deliberately trying to snow me. I've ALLOWED this behavior for the past two years, and that is over. I'm out.

I reiterated that I wanted to have a happy M where we both fall back in love after getting through much of what has come to be known as a marathon, BUT, I didn't want to talk about it ANYMORE.

I presume this will stop his emails; putting out feelers to check if I'm still there. It's beginning to do the opposite of endear him to me, it's beginning to P!SS ME OFF!

So, I want to apologize to Jennifer Chalmers and the Harleys for not sticking to my Plan, and promise them that I do have a plan and will return to it NOW. I also want others' who have given me such great support that I AM using their advice, but I'm also in the real world, in real time and am tired of the excuses.

Ok so you fell down...here is my hand to pick you up...lets get you dusted off...ok you are good no harm done.

GO DARK

(((((SL)))))

Thanks Marflow, I plan on Plan B, my hope is that there will be no more talking. It's like a broken record, and it's a little annoying.

I won't criticize. It's time WH Sh*t or got off the pot. And if he continues to stay right in the middle turn off the fart sucker..opps ceiling vent.....and get out of that stink.

Two years is a long time. You and your son deserve the dignity of moving to a future you can plan and work for. You deserve to know who will be on that team.

You did what you had to do and personally I agree with it.

Whew, so far, so good.

Thanks Chris. I've always found that part of my problem in adhering to MB principles was swallowing my pride. I did follow Plan A (once I found MB) and I did follow Plan B, but this time around, and after two PA's, I just can't lay down and have him put the stank on me anymore.

I'm good, fun, pretty, smart, kind and generally agreeable. I have a 'strong' personality (in other words, I don't hold back when the time comes to speak up). I don't want to be taken advantage of anymore, and that last email is just another way of trying to hold me as captive audience. I guess All's fair in love and war, but I felt it was time for me to launch an offensive.

I agree

A totally silent Plan B is meant to be for YOUR recovery and to show WH what it would be like without silent. Well...he knows by now. It's time to sh*t or get off the pot.

Furthermore, I have to be frank. Even if he did decide to get off the pot in your direction, I'm not dead positive I'd jump for joy. I'm not saying he's not a fine man when he's H instead of the alien WH--I'm just saying that even getting off the pot at this point is going to seem a bit "too little too late." He's gonna have some MAJOR work to do if he chooses to even attempt to get you back! YOU have changed now, into a wiser, more mature, more healthy woman and you won't put up with his bologna in your life anymore!

Soooooo...you fell off.

Sooooo...you said what was on your heart for once. I don't see that it caused anything other than FOR ONCE giving you a little relief.

I say, "no harm...no foul."


~~CJ

Panzerkamphgruppfuehrer Von Lucidity

Agreed, SL. Your plan has been really well orchestrated and strong, and I don't see that this is such a bad thing. And you never know what's going to penetrate the Fog. Things do, sometimes, I am told. So relax. Enjoy the relief and don't worry about having done it.

Calm. Be Still. Dark, dark, dark (now).

And, I want for you whatever you want for yourself.

CJ, thanks. I really don't want a D, truly. That being said, the things you have said are not lost on me. I do, however, hear others getting back together and making it work. You are right, that the ball is in his court, and my side of the court is empty. He's fighting himself now.

One of my girlfriends has stated as much too. That she couldn't understand me taking him back at this point (her background, never married, 26yrs old, used to do drugs, got herself into a terrible R with a man and wound up preggers, had the baby, and then 'ran away' from the abusive man she ended up with--she moved in with me). I guess I have to be the judge.

This time in my life is about moving FORWARD, no more steps back. I'm tired of it, the dance. I like the two-step as much as the rest, but this is ridiculous. I will assume that my email has turned him away because he cannot get off the pot.

and now a Bugs Bunny reference? (one of the few things as funny as Python). You're killing me.

I think I took a wrong turn at Albequerque today...

SL,

There is always a too late.

I don't know if I have told you this before but if I have just stop reading.

My parents are divorced. My father was an alcoholic, adulterer, that was verbally and sometimes physically abusive to my mother.

I married him, just kidding. Somewhat, any way I digress.

My mom did the best she could to put up with it. Then one day she filed for a divorce.

My mom has helped me through this and now we talk about her D from my dad.

It wasn't the affairs or the drinking that caused her to want a D. Weird huh. It wasn't the abuse either.

It was just that they were different people. She was waiting for him to change. To want to be a good H and a good father. She wanted to give him time to grow up. They were young when they got together.

She thought it was a phase. Well it didnt' end so she got a D.

To the day he died an early death from cerossis(sp) that phase continued.

My Mom on the other hand met a man that wanted to be an H and a father.

They are still together today.

The idea for me is one person cannot be happy in the M both have to be happy.

It became apparent to my mom my dad was going to ensure his own happiness not hers or ours.

So you broke plan B. Who cares.

You got to throw a good jab in. Felt good now go back to being dark.

Frog, there you are!

I agree wholly with what everyone is saying. We all begin to deal with chameleon's when the spouse becomes Wayward.

I finally got to the point when I don't want to talk about it anymore. It's go time. I look at many stories here, like princessmeggy, and frognomore (you) (Mr. Plan FU), and I see that, sometimes, the wrong way (according to MB) still does work. It's not wrong to confront your abuser and say NO MORE.

I also see people who worked so hard to get WS to come back, like Mortarman, and am inspired. I'm not the only one who has suffered through this much. Either way, I will be okay, and NOW I KNOW IT.

If I could have, I would have slapped him squarely across the face, a la Moonstruck, and said "Snap out of it!" but my computer doesn't have that feature and the pirated version is like 10GB!

Lmao,

I think the site is wonderful and the advice is great. Unfortunately some FWS or WS don't know or understand the program.

I mean Ideally I would be in Plan A and she would know and understand the desired result so no Plan B was necessary. But if it was I could go into Plan B and have her understand what the desired result is.

However that doesn't always seem to be the case. So plan FU isn't all that bad. Heck it feels kinda good to be honest. Go ahead be honest it felt good.

I wouldn't down load the pirated version it has virus's it ends up kicking you square in the a55.

Not all WS snap out of it unfortunately. But then again what are your REALLY losing if they don't and you don't get them back.

Recovery isn't easy the more crap they WS piles on the harder it will be.

sl,

Kinda how I felt when I was able to vent all my junk with WH when the CS orders came in. Finally stick up for myself when I had been keeping silent.

I said what I needed to say and then I was done.

I don't think it ruined my chances...who knows, but I sure felt better.

So, I know not the MB way, but sometimes it just needs to happen so we can have peace.

IHC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, ok, frog, it felt good to get that crap off of my chest and squarely onto the responsible party. The BEGINNING of any recovery we have is squarely on his shoulders. I am no longer making that my work.

I've been carrying the load for so long, I didn't realize that it smelled like shat!

Well I think you were entitled to express your feelings and it sounds like you did a wonderful job of doing so.

His one way communication trying to make himself feel better isn't fair or right.

Maybe he will understand you are ready to move Forward with or without him.

My FU speech felt great. I mean when my FWW came back with her justifications it hurt. I spent a good hour thrashing those and her attitude her lies etc. I put recovery on her sholders too.

I do my part but never again will I devalue myself to stay with her.

Frog, I feel like that is exactly what I did tonight, minus the face to face that you had.

SL, I saw you were still on line so this this is for you. Goodnight!

Well since my Mickey Mouse comes to Marriage Builders joke went over like a fart in an airlock on SD’s thread:

A young Kreigsmariner is assigned to the German Coast Guard. Unfortunately his English is weak. On his very first night alone at the control center he gets an emergency distress signal. Sure enough it is an American vessel.

“SOS German Coast Guard! This is the USS Pepperband. We have struck rocks and broke deep. We are sinking. I repeat we are sinking. German Coast Guard can you hear us, we are SINKING”

Struggling with the radio the young German replies, “Ya. Yess. Hello, Dis iss da German Coast Guard. Vat are you sinking about?”

SL - My ex pulled the same stuff - for 3 and a half years. I have a whole pile of letters saying he loved me, and blah, blah, blah, he was sorry, blah, blah, blah.

The problem is that you must protect yourself from his babble, because it will make you angrier and angrier. My happiest day was when I was finally DONE, and could tell him EXACTLY what I felt about him. It started out with you are a lily-livered, bottom sucking sissy-boy............." It was full of DJ's and LB's but I didn't care.

Then I told him not to contact me ever again for any reason. Guess what? He still didn't get it. He has some kind of need to keep letting me know how sorry he is, and what a good woman I am. It is all about his weakness, and not really for me.

believer, that is where I have left it. No DJ's were cast, nothing was said about his character. I did not LB. I only told him that I was not doing this anymore. That he must show me what he is saying or the emailing is pointless. I actually wrote, "otherwise this email is pointless" meaning, if he couldn't DO anything to SHOW what he was SAYING, then even MY EMAIL was pointless.

I basically said, this is it for me, do not email me about not wanting to break up your family, just stop doing it. PERIOD. I have no patience for the Wayward babble, and that was what the email was about.

I'm even finished with the LB. No need for them; he is just hurting himself more and more. He will hurt our son, because abandonment hurts, but the truth is, much of that damage is done right now. If H chose to return, we may be able to heal DS's pain in the long run, and give him a new sense of security. If WH chooses to stay away, then we are no worse off than we are RIGHT NOW.

I just got a bit fed up with the words.


And Chris----I was partaking in a nibble on a pop tart and nearly choked on the crust, as well as spat a bit of tart crust onto the computer screen (don't make fun of me for eating a nibble of pop tart--they're low fat and yummy and I didn't feel like eating right tonight) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> after reading that joke. You are a funny guy, and very creative. Thanks for the laugh

OOOOOO..........POOF!

I got you with the potatoe gun too! LMAO


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I knew you were gonna do that! Rin, you are a bright spot in a dull day, you know that?

BTW, I love that Dixie Chicks song that you mentioned on your thread, "Not ready to make nice". It says a lot.

HEHEHEHE! LMAO...

It's my ringtone on my phone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Reminds me to stay strong everytime it rings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"I'm not ready to make nice, I'm not ready to back down, I'm mad as he)) and I don't have time to go round and round and round!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I don't have time to go round and round and round!"

I think this is where I realized I was today. I'm tired of the SSDD (same sh_t, different day)

Anyhoo, I bid everyone good night and thanks for listening and advising and opening my eyes a bit more everyday. I am stronger, partly because I had MB and the forum to help me find a clue and make a plan. Now, I'm just gonna stick to it.

Sleep tight, don't let the bedbugs bite! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is the video to the chrisner's joke:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8865569851452170388

It's even funnier to see it.

Hi SL,

Hopefully this is not a SSDD kind of day! Make it something better!

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm pop tarts

Do you have any great weekend plans?

Hey Chris, no real great plans. I will be finalizing my choice of beach house for early June. I will probably do some yardwork, mowing cutting things back. I am thinking about filling my pool up before water rates go up, also to check for any leaks or problems so that I can get to the store and get new parts.

I'm probably going to take DS to the park after getting breakfast on Sunday morning. The weather on this side of the country is supposed to be nice (70's, sunny) and I am soooo ready for the nicer weather. This raincloudy, rainy, cold day thing is getting old PRETTY quick.

My favorite poptart is the frosted brown sugar cinammon. I can't eat it anymore, cause it's loaded with fat and sugar, but I do so love them. I was having some strawberry frosted low fat version. Still yummy.

Today is not SSDD, no emails, no turmoil. The only chink in my armor (yet added to my resolve) was DS curling up in my lap this morning (which is tough to do, he's 55lb's and 4ft tall) and telling me he 'still' misses his daddy and 'still' wants him to come live with us. It's so tough to hear that, not only because he is a child, but it takes me back to how I felt as a child; the loss that I had no placement for.

Oh, I wish I was there to help you with the yard! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm a huge poptart fan...LOL...but I dont like your favorite...strawberry...that MINE!

WOW, he's four foot tall...L's a little chipmunk...still in 3T's and will be 5 in June...LMAO...of course, I don't have much going for me on the vertical scale... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

F will make 9, 8 days before his brother! Now, he's 10 inches shorter than me...really long legs!

POOL PARTY AT SL'S!!!!

CANNON BALL!!!!



PADOOOOSH!!!!!

I've got a question for you MB folks from a good friend (NOT ME--he/she can't post here)

He/she has been working the MB principles and has been in PlanB for some time (11 months+); a very good, dark Plan B. Amazing, isn't it!

Well, the question that I have is this, If he/she wanted to extend an olive branch to the WS, what should it say? I know that eav has thought about this and I wonder what one would actually SAY.

Any suggestions will be most helpful to my friend. AGAIN, this is not me, you all know where I am with things right now.

Good Morning SL,

Is there an affair involved in your friend's situation? If so, is it ongoing?

Yes, Chris, the WS's A still ongoing, and BS was recently served a petition for D. Some background (notice I'm leaving out what sex this person is, tyring to fly a bit low under the radar, STEALTH)

BS--(former WS EA/PA--ended it and returned to M)
WS (believed started revenge A about time WS was ending EA/PA) A ongoing (not living together)...

DDs
finances separated
Plan B for over a year (solid Plan B for ~11mos)

My feeling is, with the A ongoing, what do you say?

As everyone here knows, I lost my cool the other day and told my WH what for! He should now be fully aware of what he needs to do to even speak to me again. I have heard that many WS's don't really think about the PBL while in fogland.

Maybe just a reminder of the PBL. Gosh, I dunno. Hope others can help this BS. Oh, BTW, there has been some coaching with the Harley's (Steve), and the olive branch was approved by him.

Hey now don't be modest it sounded like you gave him what for, what five, and possibly what six.

Seriously, if I were your friend and I know this isn't MB principle's so it is just an opinion. Nothing more nothing less so anyone that disagrees that is ok because again It is just my opinion of what I might do if I were in that spot.

Hope that was a good enough disclaimer.

I would write a short note or email. Hi. How are you. I haven't spoken to you in x amount of time. The door is still open slightly if you are ready to come home. You know what I would need from you to do that and if you are willing I still am willing to give it one more try.

If it isn't something you are interested in I understand, there is no need to respond unless you are though.

Something like that.

Steve Harley didn't give any idea how to do it?

I think frog has the right idea.

Has the WS tried to break Plan B during the last 11 months?

Is there any children?

The other thing is I would be afraid thet the WS might take the olive branch and take a couple of swings at the BS.

What I'm trying to say, is the BS prepared for what might come flying there way? You know what I mean?

I know what you mean Marflow; i think that may be something that the BS is struggling with, trying to reconcile the outcome of said extension of the olive branch.

The line about the WS taking a whack at the BS was priceless, very funny. Heck, we've taken such a beating so far, why not beat me with my olive branch, too!

I will ask about what directives SH may have about this, that was a good pickup.

Hi SL,

I thought I would let you know I spent over three hours last night reading your whole story (3-threads) since you entered Plan B in October. I turned up around here in mid-December. I have a whole new level of admiration for how you have managed your situation and protected your son. That phone call in December broke my heart for you. And yet you got up and carried on stronger than before. You are a rock star!

Have a great weekend!

Wow! Thanks Chris, that's a heck of a lot of reading! Sometimes I think back and shake my head at how much [email]cr@p[/email] I've taken.

I was in a solid plan B up until that 'mistaken identity' call.

One thing that I have heard through the grapevine is that it can be good to break plan B now and then to 'test' the waters. I would think that it is good to test the waters when they are more calm, than in the beginning when things are so nuts!

A friend told me something that jolted me into the reality of things. Every time that I broke Plan B, I jolted WH a bit further toward the light, and every time he comes back he's that much closer to breaking the spell on himself. This time, he has to go it alone. No more cattle prod's from me.

I really feel for him, because he is losing such a great life with his family, really losing. It's a [email]d@mn[/email] shame. I have learned so much and am not afraid anymore. I don't relish being broke or having to move to a new house or divorcing or any of it, but I know that I will be okay. My life WILL be more difficult as a single parent, and my son's life will too, as a child with a broken life of his own. I plan on doing all that I can to bolster his self-confidence, and to BE THERE.

I have decided that I am going to cut my hours at work and take care of my son before and after school, instead of daycare. I will lose money at work, but I will still get to keep my great job, and be an 'after school' mom. I remember how great it was when my mom was home after I got home from school. I also know how much trouble I would get myself into between the hours of arriving home and parents coming home, when my mom worked full time.

I want to be there to see what DS is up to, to talk to him, keep the lines of communication as opened as I possibly can. This change in schedule is the first step. My baby is starting kindergarten this year and I get to pick him up from the bus. That's a big thing for me.

P.S and BTW, Chris, I didn't start posting until nearly a year after my WH's FIRST A, during our first long false recovery (9mos). I dealt with his first A flying by the seat of my pants.

Last night, before my DS went to bed, he said something that caused me to come back in his room and have a discussion with him. I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something about Daddy not being in the home because you (BS) don't love him.

I sat down next to DS and began to talk about WHAT it really is that daddy has been doing and why it is unacceptable.

First off, I told DS that I did love his daddy. I told him that daddy is married to mommy, but has decided to live with another woman. That is unacceptable behavior when you promised to take care of your family. I told him that DS and I are BOTH WH's family, and he is not taking care of us, in fact, he is hurting both of us. My DS said that he IS hurt and sad and doesn't like what daddy is doing.

I was a bit floored at how open my DS is and how he understands all of this mess.

So, all that being said, PLEASE tell your children what is happening. Don't leave them wondering if daddy left because the children are at fault for some reason.

Real life example = my mother's father left when she was quite young (probably around 4 or 5) and her mother never explained the why's and what's, etc. My grandmother wasn't exactly a warm, affectionate person with her children. My mother was left wondering what it was that SHE did to MAKE her father leave. She carried this pain with her for most of her life, and told me about it when she was in her late 40's.

Don't leave it up to your children to decide why their parent left THEM, OKAY.

My DS fell to sleep as he always does, and slept well. He did not cry or whine or anything. He actually seemed stronger after I talked to him.

SL,

YOu are a wonderful, wonderful parent.

I agree with you on this. When they are ready and they ask give them the PG version like you did.

Good job.

I think that you are a WONDERFUL MOMMY! I would have done the same thing! You just keep doing what you are doing! You're setting a FINE example for him!

I wanted to ask what happen to your friend and the baby that was living with you. How long ago was that and stuff?

Wow, SL. Another defining moment. I am sure each kid around this age differ some in their ability to grasp and handle this information but I have always thought what you just said is true. I have seen a handful of times on this forum of people trying to conceal or sugarcoat the truth to kids much older than your son. I always feel like disagreeing with them but my daughter being basically grown prevents me from weighing in.

It sounds like he processed the information very maturely. How are you? That had to be a little tough.

Thanks frog, I'm learning so much about how to communicate with my DS.

My kid utterly amazes me! He is so strong, so in the moment, so aware and so real. What a beautiful thing to have the pleasure of watching every day. The kicker is this, I helped to mold him a bit, I helped to teach him manners and to be open with me. I don't take full credit, for he is his own tiny little man, but I am proud of the job I have done so far.

Just remember, if we don't help to fill in the blanks for them, they will do it themselves, and they will do it while in pain and sad. Childrens' imaginations are so strong.

Oh, BTW, my mother thought part of the reason her dad left home was because she was UGLY. What a horrible thing for a child to think.

It is a little tough knowing WHAT to say or even HOW to say it, but I know my kid. I actually feel better for having the conversation, and have had NO second thoughts about it. I reassured my DS, through this conversation, that I love him dearly and he is not wrong to be sad over what his daddy is doing, but his daddy is hurting HIMSELF the most, because we are still here, and he is not.

Rin, the girl that I had living with me moved out in December. She is actually my bosses daughter. She is still working on getting full custody of her son. The boys' father keeps skipping out on court dates and getting arrested and blah blah. What a bafoon. He is an addict (heroin, cocaine--shoots up, smokes). He was a bad choice that she made and then she didn't use protection while having sex, so WHAMMO, she became pregnant.

She has been a close friend for some time now (~6years). She is, however, 26 years old, and still a bit flakey about life. She is currently in a new R. The man she is with broke it off with her twice in the first two months that they were seeing eachother, because he was considering going back to his long-time girlfriend, which he has a DD with. Now, my GF takes her 1 year old son over to his house to sleep over. I have told her that I don't think this is wise, that she could harm her son, in the end, as this man has no commitment to her, and could leave without even thinking of her DS.

I wish she could live on her own, but she can't. Her value is all stored up in her REFLECTION in someone else's eyes, not in herself.

AH, see that's the pattern I was worried about falling into...

F asked me the other day when were thay going to get a SD...I told him that I had enough problems with one man that I didn't need another right now...let me deal with this first...

he was cool with that...

Thanks for the info!

There is never a NEED to involve your children in your love life, until there is a real commitment. I don't mean that you have to have a ring on your finger, but you must have spoken to this new person and told them about your kids and your boundaries involving them. If that new person can operate within those parameters, THEN they can meet the kids, and that's just meeting them.

I'm very guarded about this, because life doles out enough pain, without me being shortsighted and ALLOWING the bad to happen. Y'know? does that make sense?

I see what you are saying...and I agree...i have in my mind that when I'm ready and get to that point...well, sleep overs will be reserved for weekends without the kids...

I mean their little lifes have been tore apart and the last thing they need is men coming and going out of thier lives.

Exactly, Rin. We can have our adult, private lives. We're parents, we aren't dead! I mean, we deserve to find someone worthy to spend our time with too, but not to the childrens' expense.

I experienced so much of that as a child; being second to my mother's new H or boyfriend or LOVER. It was tough not being first. I didn't learn GOOD lessons from this, but I have grown to the point that I recognize a bad sitch when I see one, and have learned that no child should be an afterthought...

SL & Strivn,

DD19 continues to tease me everytime we are out now. Everytime she sees and attractive woman of the appropriate age she pokes my ribs and says, "How about her dad?" She has particular fun if they are 40 something and are trying to look 20 something. "Whoa Dad, she's perfect! Cheap and painted."

Opps, that's what Wayzilla's doing.

The best part of my mess is that I don't have young children. I do not envy you guys and am continually amazed at your strength.

LMAO...

SL,

You are welcome. I speak the truth.

I am glad you have that type of relationship with him.

Kids amaze me. My YS is so well adjusted, I don't get it sometimes with all the crap that has gone on.

OS is in IC right now from this mess.

YOu already know but I like to state the obvious. If things start going a little south it is OK to get help from an IC>

My son's seems wonderful.

The affair just keeps on giving.

I feel good about it though the teachers at his school were impressed with my attitude and my way of thinking and now so is the IC.

Nice to hear maybe what I have been saying to the FWW was right after all.

Frog, I am getting my son into IC and group counseling (if they form a group) at a place they deals with problems stemming from separation, divorce, and other life altering events.

I hope to set something up for him today. I had to do the insurance hokey pokey yesterday to find out how much the insurance would pay. Surprisingly, they will cover 50% (after I pay, of course).

DS seems to be doing much better than just a month ago, but that could be just getting used to things again; I'm sure his emotional stability is still tenuous. Unfortunately, I was relying on WH to check with his company to see if he could get help for DS, which set us back three weeks. I'm not BLAMING him, I'm just saying he isn't as proactive as I am about this. WH doesn't leave here and listen to DS talking about how much he loves his daddy and misses him and wishes that he would just come home.

Last night, my DS said that daddy belonged with us. WHOA! Out of the mouths of babes...

SL,

Geez you are way ahead of me. We have to do same with insurance right now.

I have to go out of pocket $500 then the insurance will pick up 70% I think. The IC was nice enough to knock it down to $100 per session.

I think now you have a greater reason to stay in Plan B though. The effect of your WH on your son.

Since the day I knew my FWW was pregnant I vowed to do right by my kids.

I feel as though now I have broken my vow. I think back to the fighting and I really cringe.

I feel so bad about it.

I think what bothers me is that everywhere we go to discuss OS problems they seem to agree with me. I don't know why my FWW can't get on board.

The IC saw OS and I last week and then in 2 weeks we go back again.

I am just getting really frustrated at this point. I know this stems from the A. I am so upset, I see my YS and he is the age my OS was when my FWW had her A and he is so happy and well adjusted. That is how OS was.

Well look at me throwing myself a pity party. LOL.

I know it will get better now that we have help.

Good luck with your son. I know with you as a parent he will do well.

Frog, the remorse that a FWS has to deal with is probably enormous, so admitting, on top of all of that that YOUR decisions caused so much pain in your child must be awful.

I know that I feel awful when I lose my temper and begin raising my voice, many times, I hear it building and I walk away, but there are times when I tell him what for!

You are still in the early throes of recovery, really, so still expect some bumps and set backs. You are not throwing a pity party, you are describing your efforts to help rebuild your family, and the frustration of it all. That's fine and dandy with me.

Great job talking with your son, SL. I refuse to sugar-coat it for my DS7 (i.e., lie to him). He knows who and what the OM is. I don't belabor it or bring it up because I expect that WW is trying to present OM in a positive light, and I don't want to put DS in the middle. The other day we had the "Just because mommy is doing something wrong that doesn't make her a bad person" conversation. A discussion of forgiveness is in our future.

I'm less sure on how to discuss with DD3 (almost 4). Sometimes she mentions that WW and I are angry with each other. I tell her that I'm more sad than angry. Once I told her that mommy is doing things that hurt me. I tell her that I still love WW and wish that she would come home. When she mentions OM, I tell her that I don't really want to talk about him; I'm not sure how far to go with that one.


Just one more thing that WS's are reality-impaired about. Hang in there, SL. You're doing great.

Sdguy, if your DD is asking you about OM, I find no harm in filling her in a bit, on her level, of course.

I noticed this

Sometimes she mentions that WW and I are angry with each other. I tell her that I'm more sad than angry. Once I told her that mommy is doing things that hurt me.

My point with DS, on this note, was that his daddy was hurting BOTH of us, not just me, with his actions. I wanted to give DS's pain a target, so that he can work on it, and also teach him, in some manner, that the things we do hurt more that the intended target sometimes. We must be careful with our decisions, and do our best to diminish collateral damage (in a way that he understood).

I hope that what I tell him is not hurting him, rather, helping him to focus on the REAL problem, and keep him from blaming himself.

SL,

Good advice.

I know that kids bond to parents. My FWW was a SAHM before the A so her bond with OS of course was tighter.

So when mom and dad were fighting, my son took mom's side. I wish now I would have sat him down and said dad isn't angry as much as he is hurt. Mom isn't treating daddy fairly and that hurts all of us.

I didn't and now I am paying for it. LOL. So SD go with what SL is saying it does effect all of you not just you.

It is this damage that angers the heck out of me.

I mean really how do you forgive that?

I know I am upset about it right now. But I am sure I will get over it. LOL.

The only way to get over the pain is to see your OS thrive again, and put this behind him and be able to put trust in his parents again. That's the key, that's all.

I am [email]d@mned[/email] lucky to have found this place, and get to bounce ideas on how to deal with this stuff. Before I found MB, my DS was having anger managment problems (stemming, most likely, from the A and not being developed enough to communicate his sadness). My son would hit his best friends and pick on the other kids, pushing them down, hitting them with sticks, saying mean things. Always crying and remorseful afterwards. It was miserable and I didn't know what to do.

Then, DS developed problems with sleep, he had nightmares and saw monsters (some of which is normal). He still sleeps with the light on, but he sleeps alone now, and he is not afraid of monsters.

I have kept him very scheduled. Bath time around the same time, bedtime around the same time, sometimes stories and songs, sometimes just talking and kisses and hugs. I know I'm not doing everything perfectly right, but I'm doing the best with my expertise and know how, as a mom.

My kid now has some hard knocks to deal with, and the sooner I am hip and with it, the faster he will learn how to cope. It's just such a shame that a child of his age has to deal with such a HUGE loss (shaking her head)...

SL:

You go, Girl!

As I stated on your earlier threard, Age 4 is the magic time for kids. If they had a permanent food supply, they could live independently....

And they are so curious...

Too bad WH is going to miss it.

LG

You're doing great SL. DS has a fighting chance b/c of the expertise of his mother. It's a crying damn shame that our kids have to experience this garbage. Thank GOD they have parents like us to help guide them through this mess.

Just returning some support.

Hey LG! Nice of you to drop by! Yeah, that kid sure can EAT! It's non stop sometimes.

BC, thanks, man. I really appreciate the kudos, it lets me know that I am making good, sound decisions when others are able to see it and respond to what I'm dealing with.

You know, SL, I couldn't agree with you more!! (Wait...let me try... um... Nope. Still can't agree more...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />) When my exH first took off with OW, he left the state and no one knew where he was for a while, so at that time I told the kids that "dad was doing an install out of state." When we (his mom and I) found out where he was--living with OW and not coming back--I told the kids that dad had chosen to move out and live with another woman. They were 13yo and 10yo at the time. They had worries like "What's gonna happen to us? Do we have to move?" and I told them what I planned to do and how I planned to do it, I showed them our money so they understood about budgeting but also having fun, and I reassured them that *I* would never, ever just leave them. Thereafter, any time they had ANY questions, concerns, doubts, etc. I spoke to them HONESTLY but age-appropriately. I didn't bad-mouth their dad, but I did speak the truth.

Years later my DD (16yo at the time) spent a summer living with her dad (my exH) and would say to him, "Remember when this happened?" and "Remember when that happened?" and he would say, "No I don't remember that. I wasn't there." She came home to me--at 16yo when she was old enough ot understand it--and said, "Dad was gone for most of my life wasn't he? You remember EVERYTHING we did together because you were there! You raised us pretty much by yourself didn't you?" At the time, as she was a kid and experiencing it, she just assumed that everyone's dad was gone for months at a time and didn't go to baseball games and school plays. She was a kid--it didn't dawn on her that wasn't normal. Then, when she got older and was ready for it--that's when she figured it out.

SL--VERY good job!!

Your faithful friend,


CJ

SL, I am so impressed with you. It's been so amazing to watch you work your way through all this gunk and still take the time to encourage others. Thank you so very much.

You are an incredible mother...nothing your WH does changes that. Your DS is so blessed to have you.

Fox, *I'm* blessed to have all of you as my friends. None of this is easy, but it can be done with ease with a little help from our friends.

Hi SL,

Just checking in.


Thanks for your support today. I said it earlier on the KB Court thread that I really do not know where I would be without this site and the support of these people. So many amazing, smart, caring, wise and funny people.

Ok , so I'm driving home, listening to U2, and a song comes up ("All I Want IS You) and I start to thinkin' (never a good sign)....THAT IS WHAT I WANT! See the song builds to this incredible crescendo, with that beautiful, twanging guitar that The Edge plays, and Bono is screaming "All I Want is YOOOOOOOUR LOVE!" over and over again. Relentless. I want to be that to someone AGAIN, and feel that for someone again. Not anytime soon, but someday. I look forward to it, even.

Here's the thing, I'm starting to think that I may be falling out of love with my H, he's been gone so long (2 years to my knowledge--plus, however long before that I was unaware of). I actually feel worrisome, as I still would like to recover my M, but I may really want to recover my FAMILY more, at this point.

The desperation I've felt over the last two years is fading fast.

Meh, just thought I would say it out loud.

I know what you mean, SL. I really miss the intimacy and the feelings of being with someone. I see that it wasn't there prior to the affair, but there's no reason to think that we couldn't get it back.

For me, however, the family is more important. I believe that the marriage will follow. I'm doing what I'm doing for my kids first. That it would be good for me and WW is only a secondary benefit at this point. If not for the kids, I would be gone.

I still suffer this some nagging fear regarding detaching. I have detached enough to work my Plan B, but I still have hope for my marriage. If I really really detach, I'm afraid that I won't want WW back.

SL,

I felt nothing for Wayzilla today at court. I had no trouble sleeping last night and I had no butterflies in my stomach going into the courthouse. She was already there hiding behind a pillar waiting for her attorney and when I saw her I felt; nothing. At least nothing positive or longing. I did feel this strange combination of disgust and pity. She looks terrible. Since then I keep thinking about what I always believed would be undying love and wonder, “So that’s it then? It’s over?” I think it really is.

Sdguy, I am concerned that I will only want to try because of my son, and may hinder or sabotage any hope for recovery MYSELF. How terrible would that be; not that I'm saying WH is coming home. No signs from him and the ManUp division.

I knew this was coming, I always have, even in my darkest hour, I knew time would take this with it. I knew it. I now am trying to stay the course and try to remain hopeful that we may recover. Jennifer told me that you only need ONE THING to begin recovery, ONE REASON, and it doesn't have to be love for your spouse.

I had two reasons and one is fading fast (love/want). Not good. I must remain as dark as the deepest cave now, to keep that ember hot enough, I'm going to need all my energy. Right now, I am exhausted. Since my DS doesn't have overnights, I don't really get a break. It's okay, but exhausting.

I'm going to have a nice slow sipping glass of Chardonnay and relax. I just ate my world famous (well my kitchen famous) grilled cheese sandwich. I'm going to now partake of aforementioned wine with crisp Granny Smith apple slices.

THAT's what I'm afraid of.

I don't know. I've talked before about struggling with the whole 'how to think'/'how to feel' aspect of Plan B. I guess I'm still struggling with it.

Chris, how long would you say, of your 23yr? marriage were you happy, contented? I only ask because I'm interested in how far down the Wayzilla fell from grace, and I'll be interested to see how she reacts during and after the D proceedings.

SL,

I have a practical suggestion--one single mom to another. When I had my two kids full-time and exH was not interested in seeing them on a regular basis, I found a friend who had a couple kids herself, and we would trade babysitting. I would watch her kids overnight while she went out or even just sat at home and had a quiet night to herself, and verse visa. We didn't charge each other because we watched evenly...and we picked up the kids the next morning so they would know where they were going to spend the night, etc. That way, we could have girl-talk over coffee too!!

Personally, I don't think I ever went out "wild and crazy" but just to get the chance to read MY book...quietly...and take an uninterrupted bubble bath with Frank Sinatra music in the background was PRICELESS! I usually went to the coffee house or the book store...but it was fun for me and a little break.

Soooo...just a suggestion!!


--CJ

CJ, I will look into that. Most of my girlfriends that have children live pretty far away (1hr+). We'll see. I'll be back, my tenacious terrier is out back barking her little head off and annoying the ever lovin' crap outta me...

Silent,

I admire you're strentgh through all of this. And I hope and pray that I get to that point someday.

I just want to thanke you for your help that you have given me over the last couple of months.

Your son is very lucky to have such a strong and loving woman for a mom.

Still

One thing I can say about my mom, despite some bad choices that she made, and the impact on my life, I ALWAYS knew I was loved and valued. That is a very important thing. Being valued means that the decisions I make have an affect on others'. That can be a pretty heady thing to know, but very valuable.

I still think my mother was incredible. She left my father when my brother was 8, sister was 3 and I was 1. Three children, all on her own, back in the early seventies. Her mother WOULD not help her, told her to go back to her ABUSIVE, DRUNK, of a husband. She got a job, waitressing, of course, and worked her tail to the bone, even went without food so we could eat. So she made some bad decisions, but she's gone now, and I am grown and must learn how to deal on my own.

I KNOW how to love, and I see the joy in having a child, even wish that I had more sometimes. I'm still lucky.

Still, we all have this fighter inside of us. It will come to you. It just takes quite a while for much of the hurt to subside and our vision not to be clouded.

SL,

Our marriage will be 26 years and one month when the divorce is final.

For me I was pretty dumb and happy right up until mid-last summer. That is when WW began her withdrawal and things started to seem strange. Wayzilla has always been a committed workaholic and that has been particularly true of the past 2-1/2 years. Both DD19 and I groused about how much she was away but I thought in time she would get her fill of working that much and would back off. She really loves her work (and loves to hate it) and I just planned on being patient. I was happy coaching basketball and working in the yards so I just did not give it enough attention.

As recent as last May we worked together on an elevated flagstone patio garden in the back yard and I never could have guessed what was starting to go on. There was no evidence of her “years and years of unhappiness” then.

All the prior years were great. We both were very active and pleased with DD19’s school and basketball. We all had fun, we laughed a lot; it was a really great marriage to me. Most people we know thought we were one of those ideal committed lifelong couples. There are so many people who have known Wayzilla for years who are still stunned at what she has done.

November of 2006 came and I finally started to see what was happening blatantly before my eyes. From there you know my story.

Regarding after the divorce, she has seemed to try to set up a couple things that would require some ongoing contact between us. She told me the day she picked up Mount Wayward that we would always see each other at DD’s birthdays and some holidays etc. I told her that won’t be happening. She truly seemed hurt and told me that would be my decision.

Like you once said, when this is over I will be in a lifelong Plan B with her.

I left after her yesterday from the courthouse and she did not see me following her to the parking lot. She looked alone, frail and defeated. Pity is about my last emotion left for her.

VAlued. That struck me because that is exactly what we are all looking for I think.

I use that all the time when I talk to my FWW and kids. I will not devalue myself for you. I think I am worth a million bucks don't try to sell me short.

Looks like they set the correct value for you too.

Too bad sometimes others dont see that.

Good for you with the Son I really admire you.

NOt much time to post so if this makes no sense it is the keyboards fault.

Oh one more thing. Troubled water needs advice not getting much attention on the board any chance you could take a look at her thread?

Chris, about the time that my H was becoming wayward, we were building a swing set for our DS, for his birthday. I remember him being somewhat terse now and then, but I thought we were both happy, maybe strained, but not UNhappy. Having a young child can put the hurtin on a relationship, but my WH took it to new levels. He was always so concerned with himself. This is a trait that I learned to deal with, and tried to talk with him about.

The feelings of guilt that I lauded upon myself were so great, because he SAID that he told me he didn't want kids. First off, Bullchit! Secondly, I told WH that I DID want kids, maybe two and he only said, "I'd be happy with just one, to be honest" Riiiiight, to be HONEST. Bullchit again.

Now, he misses his son, but I don't think TERRIBLY. I can't be sure, but I just don't think so. Sad, really, to not open yourself up to love, probably because it also opens you up to pain. Meh, that's not how I live.

I had always hoped that WH's problems with fatherhood would wane as our son aged. He may never know, because, truthfully, he's not really a DAD, he's a part-time playmate, that's about it.

Frog, value in myself is something that I grasped at an early age. I hope that my DS will grasp that too, for I cannot do that for him.

Hi SL,

That is an interesting post. I mentioned the other day that I went through all your threads since October. Something struck me at that time but I did not feel inclined to mention it. I will now and I hope it causes no offense regarding your WH. It has struck me that it almost seems like your WH wants you to raise his son until he gets to the “fun age”. Football, baseball, basketball, whatever. You are here to do the tough years and he will jump in when the “fun stuff “ starts happening. I don’t know if that makes sense but it was just a feeling I had.

Again, remember you are listening to a guy who just fumbled away a 26 year marriage so anything he says should be considered suspect if not outright stupid.

Oh, Chris, this has definitely crossed my mind, even when he WASN'T wayward, this was a part of what caused my resentment toward him. If I didn't ask directly for help, he didn't help. Not atypical, but still suspect. He bought books about teaching your son to tie knots and how to fish and how to be a good dad, and what kind of dad will you be, etc. He was fascinated with the SUBJECT, but not so much with the actual kid. Nope, I did most of the bathing, feeding, cooking, playing, kisses, reading, singing, parenting. I became a mom.

He would talk about DS getting older and taking him fishing and teaching him about cars and motors and computers and such. It was dreamy talk, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Maybe it will, who knows.

I really don't know how this thing is gonna go down. I'm not really caring as much these days, or, geez <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />, that's a misrepresentation, backup, strike that, start over...

I really don't know how this thing is gonna go down, and for now, it is not my central focus...There that's much better, whew (wipes her brow).

The way I see it, WH has a lot of ground to make up all on his own, no help from me. If he can't do it, I don't want it.

I repeat what I said before, I want to be wanted, to be sought for attention, conversation, affection, family time. I will not grovel, no begging, no more tears, except when watching 'Steel Magnolia's' of course.

My Husband and I were into watching movies together, and he would always giggle at me and wipe my tears away, while poking fun at how some movies turn my eyes into Nigara falls. He thought it was endearing. These are the things I am remembering these days. I had those memories locked away, because of the pain they caused before.
Now, I have changed and moved to a safer place, where the memories and the happiness still exist, and always will; hence, the reason behind keeping a semi-PlanB forever.

I would not want the love I hold for the first real strong love in my life to interfere in future love.

I am so happy that I found this place, so very happy...

I know you saw my last post on my own thread. My marriage now is a panoramic collage framed and mounted in a place where I will remember it happily forever. It is a beautiful memory. Next to it is an empty frame that I hope will someday be every bit as beautiful.

you sound like you're in a good place silent

Eav,
I still have days of longing for what I know could be, if only my H would return. Days like today, when everything looks so stark and bleak, overcast sky, threatening rain, these days can be hard. I don't really know why, as yesterday I was doing well. It could be a song or a look from a stranger or a word from my son.

This morning, I'm driving DS to daycare and he just starts talking about his daddy. How his daddy did a bad thing to me and left me, and him, and how he wishes his daddy would come home. I respond in kind, but inside it pains me. I am angry and a wee bit saddened everytime I hear my son talk of his pain. I'm happy that he talks to me, as opposed to blocking it all away.

I am in a good place. I can handle many days like this now. I have gotten off of the meds and find that I am very stable emotionally, and feel better physically, more alert, I guess. I try to laugh WHENEVER I possibly can.

Look at Chrisner's recent posts. We all see a man who is funny and charming and able to laugh his way out of a cauldron of h3ll. Look closer though. This is a man who is dealing in whatever way he knows how, and making people laugh fills him up. It does not, however, take away the pain of loss and the facts of life.

WE all hurt daily, sometimes hourly, and sometimes every minute that ticks by can be excruciating. I think I'm just learning to let go of the really bad stuff that I can not do anything about. The loss lingers...

Well, sweetie I think that you are doing a wonderful job of handling not only your grieving, but allowing your son to grieve too!

Each day both of you move more and more towards acceptance...

Each day that you live I reality and understand that what was once there was an illusion...however real at one point, somewhere along the way it changed...

It's okay...it's okay to feel the pain and know that things will get better...

It's the gifts that you recieve in the process...the close bond that you and DS are sharing...knowing that he feels comfortable talking with you...

What a gift that is...and you're aware of it...I am not at that point with F...doesn't talk about it...but then again neither of the boys ask for their father...so I'm not sure how much it REALLY bothers them...

He worked alot and they were always with me...when he was home, they would play together in their room and STBX spend little time with them...

presently, STBX doesn't call...

I can see how much more difficult your sitch is, being that WH calls and wants to be a part of DS life...I can feel the pain myself...I would think that it weights down on you so heavy at times...

And this is why I feel that YOU are SO amazing and are doing SUCH an excellent job...

I admire you...inspiring little YOU!

Wow, thanks Rin!

I'm almost positive that those boys miss the 'good time dad' that they did have in moments. I'm sure they have suffered a great deal of loss. I'm also sure that the situation that you have removed them from was bad, and maybe they are just beginning to be able to let their guardds down and relax.

As long as you keep talking and asking questions, they will know that you are paying attention, whether they answer or not, they will know that you are there. You are teaching them good things Rin, but taking the initiative to get yourself help, you are changing and finding a better way to live, and placing boundaries that those boys will see. I think they will be even better when you are all settled.

I figure in due time...their will be questions...I figure there enough pressure, there's no point in me adding more...

Thank you...I'm doing the best I can with what I have! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No point in stopping now!

I started looking for houses for sale in the area, just in case! That would be so cool! I'd be happy! new house, new furniture...WOW, BABY! NEW LIFE! GREAT KIDS! HECK YEA...

I just might have to throw a party...LOL

Rin, if you throw a party, I'd consider coming!

I do feel the same way about moving on COMPLETELY. I would like to start over in a new place. I've thought a lot on this. I may take a hit, but I would be able to start out with a clean slate. Hmmm, we'll see...

I'll say it again, Rin, you WILL be a MB success story, just as believer and CJ and so many others are...

My calendar gets pretty open soon too.

ALRIGHT, everybody's comin to South Louisiana...New Orleans 45 minutes away...

But I'd rather stay at the house...let the kids run around, BBQ, BS...drink a little...get some music going...

AH, sueki, sueki, now!

We can go for a theme party! LMAO

I agee with SL.

I honestly believe you both are.

I know saving the M is the desired end result but not at the cost of your self.

IMVHO you are both doing well, you are both working on self improvement, and neither one is letting the h's have an M under their terms.

Isn't that a success.

You are amazing Silent, you really are.

Milk

Yup, I feel successful now, as opposed to wallowing in self pity about my sitch, I feel like my life is back on track...

Oh, Rin, I'll be happy to get down wit my bad self. I love a good BBQ! Let's see, I can two step, do the electric slide, the running man, some poppin and lockin, a little booty dance here and there (Doin' da butt, da da dada, the way she shook her booty, sure look good to me...), salsa, little ballet, jazz...

I can do the smurf the popeye and the Jerry lewis.

Electric slide, macarana, you name it. I can do the hustle too. Any way.

I am a little far away so just imagine hairy legs in shorts eating whatever the heck comes off the BBQ except for seafood.

Oh and the wallowing thing as fun as it sounds it is over rated. LOL.

They don't have a name for what I do, seems to always draw a crowd though. Only takes 10 beers to see it.

I'll bring the deer sausage and whatever looks awsome at the meat market by the house. Probably some cubed back strap wrapped in bacon and maybe stuffed with cream cheese.

He11 yeah!!

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA! only 10 beers huh!

LMAO...BC...I'm going to have to commision you to do the BBQing...you know I don't know how to lite the grill! LMAO

SL- You think that's funny...two or three and I have a buzz...

And I do take my clothes off... :::ssshhhhh!::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

STBX was sooooo mad at me for at least a week for that one...but HN2 poured a whole beer down the front of my shirt...so, I borrowed another friends other shirt, he was wearing two...

So, i went to the corner of the bar...with my back turned to everyone and changed shirts...

There's more to that story but I'll leave that alone... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Frog...What? No shrimp wrapped in bacon for you? Com"on MAN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I DO NO LINE dancing...I'm there with BC...no name for what I do! Occasionally the robot! I can swim! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I learned all my moves at the Ministry of Silly Walks. Anymore there is a whole new meaning to me “busting a move”. Could involve 911 calls.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...OH cHRIS...It CAN'T be that BAD!

It's okay, you can sit bad in a lounge chair, with sunglasses and a good beer! Watchin all the white folks...LOL!

Chris, you must be like Elaine Bennis from Seinfeld. Those funny walks can draw a crowd.

Hey, I was talking to my brother about "Life of Brian" and he informed me that John Cleese's original last name was CHEESE. Clever, those brit's are...

You can cover me with a shawl and use a mirror now and then to make sure I am still breathing.

SL, ever notice George Harrison in Life of Brian? The camera quickly pans by him in the crowd in Brian's room after he accidentally exposes himself thought the window. I think he is like the only person wearing red.

WeWeese Bwian!

BC: No one wants to see what I would do after 10 beers but I will let you know it involves a bucket.

I never caught that, I'll have to check that out, Chris.

After 10 beers, I won't even know what a bucket is...or who I am for that matter.

SL:

So the Left Coast MB'ers are getting together...

And the nawllins folks are going to pull the right coasters down to them.

Guess us Elaine Dancing, Silly Walkers got no party...

LG>>> a CPA... Too many in a room would kill any party...

SL>>>a scientist...Too many in a room MAKE the party <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know how to make all sorts of interesting things . . . .

sdg...hmmm that sounds interesting...explain!!! LOL

I was trained as a synthetic organic chemist, so I know how to make all kinds of different chemicals. I've actually been paid to [legally] make crack cocaine. Long story.

Holy CRACK!

Watch out BatmAN...POW!

SDGUY is on the scene...SL test the PH balance...LG, how much do we need to charge to make an 88% profit?

I'll do all the forms for shipping, recieving, inventory, cash flow, and help with the adversing!

How are you today, SL? Any big plans for the weekend?

Thank you so much for your input on my thread, along with the other Killer Bees. Last week and this week have been a bit rough, but today is good for me. I don't know why exactly, it's just a good day and I'm ready to face the weekend without DDs.

Someone was telling Strivin on her thread to take advantage of her weekend without the kids and make the most of a bad sitch. That's my plan, too. No one benefits by my sitting at home crying my eyes out and wishing for things to be different.

I am a woman, not just a mother and wife. I'm important, too. First, I have to be important enough to myself....so pampering and stuff for ME is on the agenda this weekend.

Tell me what you are doing for YOU this weekend.

Fox

Hmmm, let's see, well Sunday night I'm gettin' my hairs did! I was thinking about hanging out with some friends Saturday, but I'm unsure.

I have my son all weekends now, pretty much, so I don't have any free time, just about 6 hours each day. I'll probably watch a movie or two and get some yard work done, if the weather permits. I ordered a new book "The Starter Wife" because it looks funny, so if that comes, I'll delve into that.

I have to admit, I miss some things about having a partner. I love to play racquetball, but found it difficult to find a partner since my WH left, and dropped my membership (I couldn't do the times for a structured league). I love racquet sports in general, but, alas, it takes two.

I may do some dancing (I was a dancer when I was younger, mostly jazz, modern, a little ballet). I feel attuned with myself, when I dance.

I really hadn't thought too much about it.

I haven't stayed home crying my eyes out for some time now. I am in a pretty good place. Happy, even.

I'd love to be your partner for racquetball! Might be tough, though with the distance problem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's one thing that is nice about my DDs ages. They are old enough and coordinated enough to play alot of things with me and be half way decent at it (better, most of the time)

Today I'm writing the letter to cancel my gym membership. I used to go to Curves every day at lunch with my little sister. Can't afford it any more. I'll just have to do more with DDs at home.

Glad you're happy, SL, you really deserve it. Must be why you are able to help others so much right now, I tend to neglect my friends a little bit here when things get difficult for me. I always wish everyone the best, though, even if I don't feel like I have much to contribute at times.

Fox

I resemble that remark.

LifeTime TV is starting a new series called that. It looks VERY, VERY good (and funny). Lots of good actors. May cause some triggers though because it's about men leaving their wives for bimbos.

princessmeggy, I deal with so many triggers, I'd rather deal with them while feeling my favorite emotion, "laughter through tears" (Steel Magnolias--Dolly Parton's line)

If I could get through the first two seasons of Grey's Anatomy when my WH was deep in his A's while living at home, I can get through a funny book about rebounding from such a terrible attack as that of getting DUMPED by your WH.

I made the suggestion and I bet the tissue companies do benefit when we do that.


It shows!!!!!

I decided to get my back waxed this weekend. I will be yelling "KELLY CLARKSON".

Asking for my advise is like asking for R.F. Scott's help to get to the South Pole.

good thing your M is recovering b/c that is a horrible pick up line.

Frog, that was the best part of that entire movie!

More unhappy trauma for visual thinkers.

My eyes, my eyes!

When I hear of hairy people, I think of my dad, when he was about 220lbs at 5'7", floating in the lake at my Aunt's house at Lake Hamilton in Hot Springs ARK. He looked like an otter. I half expected him to start cleaning himself or something.

OR

One of my old coworkers, very hairy, who allowed his wife to use the product NADS on his neck hair. He had a neck filled with HUGE red bumps...It was fricken hilarious. When I saw him, I would say, 'Try our NADS'.

*PM wiping up the coke she just spewed on her monitor <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you SL,

It is all part of the Manscaping routine. Nose hair, earhair, chest hair, arm hair.

I go through an electric razor everymonth.

To be metro like me.

It is a great pickup line.

Watch,

Hey now my name if Frog, if you aren't busy later I have some hotwax and some linen strips. You up for it?

Works like a charm.

You guys are seriously going to get me sent to the loony bin! Good thing the office if fairly quiet today or the men in white coats would have already been here! I'm sure after all the tears my co-workers have seen, they are a bit relieved to hear me laugh (even if it looks like I crack up at my monitor)

sdguy, hoped all this banter helped lift those clouds a little bit. I know it always does for me.

Thanks, frog, for pointing out to Strivin how important it is to turn what looks like a negative into a positive. I gain alot of insight from help on my own thread but reading others also makes things click and applies to my own sitch. I would have soooo appreciated a weekend to myself during the M, now I DREAD it. I'm working hard to appreciate it instead. It's almost kind of fun to turn it around and see at as "WH is taking the girls FOR me this wekeend, how nice." And he doesn't even know he is doing something to help me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

OK, I'm back to an intermediary again.

I broke down after reading an email regarding time with my son. WH normally spends every other Fri-sat-sun with DS, this is his weekend. I was taking DS to a party after daycare today, but I emailed WH that we would be home by 7PM. He replied that he bought concert tickets but plans to spend EXTRA time with him tomorrow (11AM-8PM instead of 12p-6p). That hurt. I had asked him to avoid talking about his personal time, but he can't seem to cut that chord.

I asked my GF at work to help me out again, she's kind of reluctant, but I can't be breaking down at work. It's nuts, and now the tears are beckoning at the doorstep of my eyes. [email]D@mnit![/email]

Darkness, complete and total will be good; it's what I've wanted all along, maybe I'll finally get it.

(((((((((SL))))))))

or he doesn't want to. Either way it sucks for you.

Keep your head up knowing you are handling this great.

WH,

No worries if you ever want really good advice just look at what I give others. Then process it and try to do the exact opposite.

I'd like to help, SL, and make the same offer to you that you made to me.

I'd be more than willing to be your intermediary. My email address is (removed).

Please consider it.

I don't know why they have to continue doing that kind of hurtful [email]cr@p.[/email] Why are they determined that we know what they are doing? I thought this was all supposed to be so "secret". Geez! I'm sorry, sl. You've been doing so well, try to brush this one off, too. He is not worthy right now of your wonderful son.

What does that say to your son? Daddy doesn't have time for me today, but he'll try to fit me in extra tomorrow? Unless tomorrow comes and there is something WH would rather do. Darn frustrating!



You deserve this, SL! Let's see what we can work out. I, too, have a cell phone, email, etc. Technology is so great.

I'm available as well. sdguy0038@yahoo.com

HAH! I just got you guys to give me your email addresses. HA HA.

No, seriously. I have worked it out with my GF AGAIN. The problem she had before with the sitch was she was relaying personal info, like "he said he was going to a concert that day", and then I would say, "Well, what else did he say" It was not good. That was about a month into Plan B, last November. I've been without an intermediary for some time now.

I told her that i want ABSOLUTELY no personal info, just the facts and promised her not to push. Even having a line of communication available is crumbs, FOR ME. I don't want crumbs. I want the whole [email]d@mned[/email] cake, or nothing at all. She agrees that this will be good for me. I hope she can do it this time.

Thanks for the support; I'll keep you both in mind if this falls through.

Hope it works out, SL. Be sure to let us know if you need us.

I'm walking up the hall toward the protein cold room, and whammo, the words scroll across my mind, "I bought a ticket to the Muse concert..."

Then I get that hot feeling in my chest and the tears well up, AS I'M WALKING THROUGH THE LAB. Not good. It's passing. Well, I can tell you this, I do love my H, for I do not think I would have such a violent, SUDDEN reaction.

I was dealing with this stuff with him last week, and truly thought that the disappointment wouldn't bother me. I was WRONGO!

((((((SL))))))

Once I get in the car, I can have a few tears fall and then blast some good music and get over it.

I guess that's why I don't want to talk to mine either...i'm scared that he'll start talking about coming home or say something to hurt my feelings and i just would rather leave things the way they are!

I'm sorry that it hit you like a ton of bricks again...it will get better...

Believe me, there is still sadness when it does not hit you like a ton of bricks too.

There should be sadness...how cold and sick would we be if none of this affected us at all.

((((((SL))))))

I am thinking that batman and robin should be hunting him down and inflicting some "BAM" and "POW" action!

Put on some good music and get ready for a beautiful, fun night with your darling son!!!!! That will get you smiling again...he is the best thing in the world!!!

(((((((((((((sl)))))))))))
sorry to hear you had a bad day. the ups and down never stop I guess. good luck with your intermediary. I hope it pans out.

I really feel for you, SL. The sudden triggers suck, but you know how to get past it.

(((SL)))

Of course you love your H. healthy people can't turn it off like a light switch regardless of the he11 someone puts us through. We married them, we loved them, we procreated with them, they're etched in out hearts forever. I don't want my WW back anymore, but I still love her dearly.

I know it hurts like he11, but this just proves how good of person YOU are.

See you at the BBQ

Also, that's probably the only time I'll ever see the words PROTEIN COLD ROOM and MUSE CONCERT in the same sentence. I also don't know what either one of those things are.

Phew...thought I was all alone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Maybe we watched too much Dukes of Hazard growing up?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LMAO...YOU said PROTEIN COLD ROOM! COOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

"KELLY CLARKSON" Just say that it eases the pain.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SAVE A HORSE...RIDE A COWBOY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Easy, Rider!!

SL,

Please check out the latest post on my thread. I received a beautiful email from my mother....it applies to you, too.

Fox

Silent,

Just wanted to send hugs your way. You have been there for me so many times, remember all of us here understand and care for you.

Plus what is a protein cold room??? Anything like a clean room?
Does it store sperm samples?

Still

Wow, thanks bunches everybody. I'm so glad my reaction is normal


BC said...



IHC said

These words help so much.

Well, I met my son at a farewell party at this daycare (his daycare provider SUDDENLY retired, so she closed today). All was well until 7PM, when I told DS it was time to leave. He completely broke down, to the point where his legs were like jello. I had to carry him around to say goodbye to everyone (he's about 60lbs now).

I finally got him into the car and he sobbed, followed by wimpering all the way home. He said he missed his friends, then he said how much he missed his daddy. I was crying with him, quietly and trying to reassure him. I said, "it's going to be okay" at one point, and he said "no, mommy, it's not". I said right now he was right, that it hurts, but over time, he will make all sorts of new friends who live closer to his home.

It was heartbreaking. He's had to deal with so much change over the last year. It will be good when he starts school and has some semblence of structure. The same teacher everyday, same kids, not so much loss.

Again, the impact of all of this adds to the pleasure that I get in infidel land.

WEll, where is he going to go now before school starts?

I remember doing the same thing the last day of third grade...didn't matter that I would be back the next year...summer came and I just knew I had last all of my friends and wouldn't see them again...

I loved school! He must like it too!

DS is going to a new daycare for the summer months, then I will be cutting back my schedule at work to drop him at the bus and pick him up. I want to be home when he gets home now, and it's really only about 2 hours off my day. I will probably go hourly during this time, but I will still have insurance and 401k. I also will work with my bosses to attempt to keep my salary by forgoing any end of year bonus, which sucks, but beggars can't be choosy...

Cool, sounds like you have a plan...Good to hear...

You know YOU DO sound good despite the [email]cr@p[/email] today...

What are you doing for self-care tonight?

Well, my neck is killing me, has for a few days now, but I'm having problems with the hot tub and will need to work that out tomorrow.

I haven't really done anything tonight. DS didn't get to bed until 9:30 (fighting bed time), then I came here to see if anything interesting was happening, and then read Lemonman's thread and am now back to wondering if I should just give up on my M.

Sometimes you can't get a straight answer around here. I would think my sitch is tough to advise on. Many would say to be done with WH, some would say that he has shown some good signs and sticking it out, for now, is a good bet. Some would say to stick it out for the length of his A, which could be 2 years. Some say nothing, which can be the worst.

I'm beginning to understand eav's problems with this site. We are all human and this stuff can go against what we would assume to do, so it can be hard to digest and work the plans.

I'm just a bit tight right now...

SL - Don't fret - you will feel good about quitting when it is time. I did Plan B for a long time, wanting to save my marriage. Then all of a sudden, I was certain I wanted a divorce. I was done. Everyone has their own timetable.

Oh, sweetie...sounds like your head and your heart are not in the right place....I was thinking while writing that how I sometimes feel that it would be easier to go back...

This is only a choice that YOU can make...all the advice in the world is not going to help you make up your mind...only YOU can do that...say I'm tired of this...

Either way it's hard...I can KNOW something and still FEEL something else...I KNOW that it's unheathly but still feel that it would be easier to go back...

Why, is it becasue I've been so comfortable with my environment...I adapted...I survived...

As much as I like feeling free right now, there's a lot of pain that goes with that...THERE'S alot of pain that goes with anyone sitch...

Just as what's right for one IS NOT right for another...

we each have a different POV...your choice, you action!

Thanks believer. I can't see marching in to my lawyer's office right now, asking for a D. I just can't do it right now. My sorry little [censored] still WANTS to believe that we MAY make it. I read stories here where people suffered through much more than I have, and did recover, despite the ominous, continued horrible behavior of a WS.

I do long for clarity. I have clarity in other areas, but not when the D question comes up.

Emotions have been running pretty high with my DS, so I'm crying right now from all of the stress and confusion. I hope to feel better tomorrow. WH takes son during the days this weekend, so I get a small reprieve. Hopefully I will be able to regroup a bit. Too much drama this week.

Also, I got my first Mammogram on Wednesday (my mom had breast cancer, so I start at 35). It's just a baseline, but it is surprisingly nerve wracking waiting for the results in the mail.

I sometimes wish that I had the strength to just cut him loose right now, but I would like my son to have his daddy back. Is that a bad reason to try? I'm unsure anymore.

You will never regret doing the right thing and trying. I tried for over 3 years, and it never worked out. But I don't feel bad about it. I know I did all that I could. And I'm not miserable anymore, but happy all the time. You will get there too.

I threw WS out on D-day, and used to wonder if I should have just divorced him. It would have saved a lot of money and heartbreak. But now I'm glad that I gave the marriage every chance.

Thanks believer. I can't stop until I'm DONE. I think I'm going to hit the hay now, and relax a bit. I so appreciate you chiming in and bringing me down a bit.

Sometimes reading here can make a girl (or guy) nuts

WHAT ABOUT THAT THREAD MADE YOU WANT TO GIVE UP???

Mimi Hon where have you been? I haven't seen you are Marsh in a while. How's it been?

Mimi,

This is part of what I'm asking about Marriage Builders. Is this site only catering to those who have been in a M where there was one A? I didn't find this site until near the end of my first long false recovery, so was unaware of Plan A Plan B, and so many other things.

My H would be lumped into the repeat offender category, and the connotation I got was that people giving advise should steer from advising someone in my sitch to attempt recovery. Rather, I should consider what? The only other alternative that I can come up with that was unspoken is D. So, it got me to thinking about MY SITCH.

I DO NOT WANT TO GIVE UP, however, I don't hear many stating that my remaining in Plan B cold bring him back. I hear many saying that Plan B will insulate ME.

Now, no one has ever said to pack it in and give up, however, very few have said (unless my WH wrote some great letter--false recovery letter)that my M could be recovered. I guess people not only do not like to give false hope, they don't like to foster hope.

I don't know, today is a new day. I will have some time to myself, as it's WH's day with DS, so I have about 9 hours to do something with. It's a bit overcast, and may rain today, so I may just turn on some music, clean a bit and watch a movie, or read. I've grown used to entertaining myself, so I never have a problem finding something to do.

BTW, Mimi, you have always been very literal with your translation of MB principles, and very open about the advise given to you by the Harleys. I never remembering you say that recovery in my sitch is not possible. In fact, I've heard you say ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE if you BELIEVE.

SL:

Doesn't the site make it clear somewhere that we are amateurs and that you should follow the advice of the Harleys? How did they advice you regarding your situation? That's the COUNSEL that you should FOLLOW. We are here to provide SUPPORT and ENCOURAGEMENT. I have a problem with those on the forum who state their OPINIONS as FACT. I try to make it CLEAR that my posts are based ON MY OWN OPINION and EXPERIENCES..although some want me to stop talking about MY EXPERIENCES..MY EXPERIENCES are MY TRUTH..which you and others are FREE to USE...at NO CHARGE...TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT..on the other hand, as certainly they should, the HARLEYS actually CHARGE for their EXPERT ADVICE..IMO, STEVE HARLEY is a PURE GENIUS in regards to his UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE about PEOPLE and RELATIONSHIPS...



I don't think it's WISE or PRUDENT to base your decisions on what PEOPLE ARE SAYING. You are the BEST JUDGE of what YOU NEED TO DO..over PEOPLE HERE..first the EXPERTS, then YOU, then the PEOPLE HERE...because the PEOPLE HERE do not know your SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES...which the HARLEYS can take into consideration...and PEOPLE HERE are biased by their own PERSONAL PERSPECTIVES AND STRUGGLES...the PROFESSIONALS have learned appropriate BOUNDARIES of not letting their PERSONAL LIVES INTRUDE upon their PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING with you.



I THINK THAT THIS IS A MAJOR, MAJOR MISTAKE and is PLAIN WRONG...again, mostly MY OPINION..The MEDICAL LITERATURE is filled with research showing the value of HOPE in helping folks recover from ILLNESS. I can't see why this does not apply to our situations. One good book is THE ANATOMY OF HOPE, written by a physician...as long as the HOPEFUL perspective does not keep a person STUCK from moving forward. That's why I say ACCEPT THE PRESENT, MAINTAIN HOPE FOR THE FUTURE...HOPE for what YOU want out of LIFE.




THIS SPEAKS TO WHO I AM AS A PERSON even before finding MBers. I think Rin said this and it is true. I'm a "BY THE BOOK KIND OF PERSON"..I do this with RECIPES and ASSEMBLY DIRECTIONS...Plus, I have OCD "TENDENCIES" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />...EVERYTHING IN ITS PLACE, DONE AT A CERTAIN TIME...you look at movies, my sons say that I'm like J Lo in "THE WEDDING PLANNER"....thankfully, my H is like this too...

Plus, I have been very religious since CHILDHOOD..so there....

Plus, everytime I tried to deal with the infidelity..MY WAY..rather than the MB way is when I goofed...so I became SOLD OUT on THE PLANS and still AM..when I became SOLD OUT I STUCK to them as closely as possible.. it worked FOR ME...

I know and respect that others don't think like me but this is what I believe. Even my RECIPES turn out better when I follow them to a TEE..this works IN MY LIFE...and I keep being REINFORCED for being this way by the POSITIVE OUTCOMES...

WHEN I BELIEVE AND TRUST IN THE LORD, I RECEIVE BLESSINGS..on HIS TIME..NOT MY TIME..and I have to BE OPEN TO HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO ME...

Enough of my testimony....

And lastly, LM and I have a history of seeing things TOTALLY DIFFERENT so rather than starting that discussion again with him..I thought I would speak directly to you...

Well, Mimi,

Well said. I counseled with Jennifer ONCE, and was told that my sitch is salvageable, and could work, but it was around the time of false recovery. I had forwarded her a copy of the letter that my WH sent me, and she said his words seemed fairly realistic.

Anyway, the truth is I think I just hit a bump in my road, and I have to give it the appropriate time to right itself. I'm FEELING a lot right now, and feel that I need some time. Feelings solve nothing, as they flow in and out. Solutions are what I'm working for.

I have goofed up in my own way, and am trying to forgive myself for that, as with every pain that my child expresses I know that my allowing my WH to come back into this home and invade our lives was partly my fault, and now my son suffers more because of my mistakes. I know that I am not to blame for my WH's A, but I am responsible for that little boy's well-being. I think WH coming and going and coming and going is confusing my son, as well as me for that matter.

I prefer direction and recipes, too, Mimi. Every now and then I change something, just to make it mine.

i agree with the things that silent is saying

FEW people here really believe that plan B is about saving you marriage

THAT'S what SAA says plan B is for

when you go to plan B with saving your marraige as your goal instead of using it to allow you to move on in case your marriage isn't saved........VERY FEW people here support you

people keep saying that i'm not going to save my marraige if i don't do plan B the right way and that i'm not doing plan B the right way because i'm not "moving on"

i am doing exactly what SAA and Jennifer harley say that i should be doing

and yet the people here who think they are experts don't support me

SAA says that going into plan B will PRESERVE your LOVE FOR YOUR HUSBAND and yet, for those of us who's love is preserved enough that we still want to save our marraige, people here crush our hope into dust

yes, because of plan B, you may be ready to move on WHEN YOU FEEL THAT YOU'VE WAITED LONG ENOUGH.....with no NEW love bank deposits from your wayward spouse

your LOVEBANK may still become empty no matter how much you try to preserve it

BUT we should be supported here until WE beleive that our lovebanks are empty and we feel we have waited and hoped long enough for US

that's what i believe a SUPPORT SITE should be for anyway

i have told jennifer...that i don't think there's much hope left for my marraige

THAT'S when she got firm and sounds angry when she said....."too many people give up too soon. i believe you should wait at least another year if you feel you are able to..... Most affairs do end before 2 years but many last longer.....i REFUSE to believe that your husband is happy in this relationship and i DON'T believe it's going to last."

and then i come here and people DON'T agree with her or support what she said (isn't that what this site is for?)

and when i request a session with her because PEOPLE HERE make me feel like i need to give up hope.....

JENNIFER TELLS ME NOT TO GIVE UP she says the people here are not experts and are only feeling their way along just as i am...that they are NO MORE an expert than I am

they are just people telling you what they believe based upon thier experiences and reading here....

in fact, she said that maybe coming to the site isn't a good idea if i'm not finding support here

many of the self-appointed and referred to by others "experts" here are NOT advising others what the HARLEY'S WOULD ADVISE

and i find that those same people are supportive during plan A, during exposure and at the beginning of plan B because that is when THEY believe you have the best chance of recovering your marraige

after that.....well they seem to desert those of us in plan B for the long haul

they tell us to move on and realize our marraige most likely won't be saved....that the affair has gone on too long and the relationship has "cemented" or something similar

well.....Jennifer says that when affairs go on for some time, those people are still RENTERS unless they are married

and they are renters who gave up alot to be with the other person

she believes that the fantasy period where they "give, give, give" to each other WILL WEAR OFF and the reality of everyday will cause their TAKERS to start making demands instead of making SACRIFCIES

and LOVEBUSTING WILL OCCUR

so here's my problem

i pay big money for really good advice and then i come here for the free "support" this site is supposed to offer

and mostly what i get here is people telling me that everything Jennifer told me is wrong

that it's been TOO LONG, that my husband isn't going to return and that i am HANGING ON

anyone who agrees with jennifer is told they are giving me FALSE HOPE

and then i get upset and call Jennifer again....pay big money again...and she tells me that she STILL believes everything she has already told me and that i really need to just give it time and wait it out

so i don't come here as much as i used to

i don't post as often as i used to

and i don't keep myself from telling people they don't know what they are talking about like i used to

and i really question why this site isn't doing what it should for those of us who are dealing with this for the longest amount of time

mimi

i can honestly say that your understanding of the concepts of plan A and plan B go along with SAA and Jennifer Harley

eav,

You have reinforced that, when I have the funds, I am going to call Jennifer to get her perspective.

Barring any major financial changes and such, I believe that my H is in there and WANTS to come out, and is struggling, and I will wait it out. I DO believe this. I just don't know how long that will take HIM to believe.

eav, I undestand not coming here as often. I feel a comradery with many here currently, and I mostly post to them, trying to reinforce PlanB and what it is REALLY for. I try to get people to get quiet, get dark. I have taken my own advice and done that.

I, like you, have begun living my life alone. Making plans for me and doing things for me. Reading books and relaxing when I can. Helping others when I can. I do a lot of yard work. I really love to see the flowers grow and happy because I have given the attention, pulled the weeds away and given them breathing room. Mowing the lawn when it is lush, like it is now; the grass is almost irridescent. It's quite lovely when the garden and yard are spruced up.

I also have been connecting with my friends more regularly. I don't have many, but those I do have I love dearly.

Thank you eav, and mimi, for helping to clarify things and get me thinking. I think we all fall off that horse, and just need that nudge to get back up and begin again.

silent,

I think when people on here suggest that you "let him go" and "move on" that it could be two things at play: first, maybe they are sort of newer MB'ers and to a newbie they might wonder why you don't just "kick him to the curb" and second, maybe it's a person who thinks it seems unhealthy for you to pine for someone who "has clearly moved on without you."

My exH began his last/major A on Feb. 3, 1999 and we did not D until May 23, 2003 (I filed in Feb. 2003). That's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> FOUR YEARS for those who can't do math!! So, yep, I waited and tried for FOUR YEARS before I was ready to file and move on. So there is not one thing that says you can't be the BS in Plan B for YEARS...as long as you are legally and financially protected, you can wait as long as you want!

Between you and I and the fencepost, I personally suggest that you take all advice here on MB with a grain of salt. What I did, though, was to recognize that there were certain people who really KNEW me and understood where I was coming from--and those people I called my "Wise Council." At first, I asked everyone for advise here first...then made my decision. Then, I began to use just my Wise Council for advice, and if they all agreed, that was my decision. Then I got into the habit of making my own mind up and "checking" here with my Wise Council. I figured if my Wise Council was in agreement with my own decision, then it was a wise decision! Finally, only came to Wise Council when I felt like I was off track and couldn't see the solution myself.

Sooooo...I suggest that you do what you want to do, and what you are ready to do. And no--I don't mean be selfish--I mean, if you want to wait for a while and you are wisely protected, then wait until you want to stop waiting. It is my opinion that where there is life, there is hope. At any moment, your WH could "wake up" out of the fog and wonder what in the world he has done. At any moment, your WH could realize that he needs to win you back and he could be willing to do the work for a year without getting ANYTHING in return in order to correct his mistakes. Where there is life, there is hope.

Here's what happened for me--just so you know what it MIGHT be like for you. As I mentioned, my exH and I tried to reconcile six times and separated seven times. He continued his A with the OW from 1999/2000--he had other cyber A's--and I was an abuse survivor so I had to learn how to love myself instead of turning to him for love. But the last time we separated, I was in a good, silent, dark Plan B and the kids and I were doing well personally...when it sort of "dawned" on me that our M had been dead for a long time and that my exH had no reason--no motivation--to ever file for D. Even though our M was dead and we had been living apart for quite a while, if he filed for D, it would mean court-ordered CS through CSE and as long as he didn't file, he could stay "in control" of money and through that "in control" of me. Plus, he thought that I'd never really do it, and if he ever ran out of GF's all he had to do was make some promises and I'd take him back! He had no reason to ever D and he would NEVER file! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Shortly after that, he called me screaming at 6am (over something that he had no business to even be involved in with me) and he threatened "You know I can get into that house any time I want, and if you keep this up all I have to do is get in and get the kids, and you'll never even know they're gone and you'll never see them again."

That was it. I was ready.

Your faithful friend,



CJ

actually

i'm trying NOT to contact Jennifer for a session unless there is a MAJOR change in MY HUSBANDS actions or feelings

i've realized it's foolish to spend $185 getting the same reassurance from Jennifer that she gave me each and every time i've called

SHE believes.....i need to also

nothing's any different

nothing new to advise

is there anything different for you?

CJ,

I am financially covered for two years with alimony and CS, so I got that wrapped up, oh, and exclusive use of the home. I don't think I will have any problems there. I'm set.

My WH has NEVER even raised his voice to me, not really even in the thick of things. No threats, NADA. I have had some thoughts of protecting myself, as he sinks closer to bottom, as you never know how people will react to facing their fears.

Nope, I'm set financially for a while, and my emotions are on a roller coaster right now, but will settle and then I will be fine. I'm clear on my objective. I wouldn't do Plan B if I didn't want my family intact and my H home. I would go to Plan D. I need to give this some time for ME, so that I can be almost positive that I waited as long as I could, without sacrificing too much too long.

My son is home, and he helps to center me, just by being here. He misses his daddy so, and if I can hang on for me and when that gets weak, hang on for him, I will.

You and believer both said similar things, that you will know when you are done. I KNEW when I wanted Plan B, and I knew that crumbs were not for me, only to be wanted, respected is for me. I will know when it is time.

eav,

Just the events that occurred since my WH left the home. The emails, his starting counseling, my DS starting counseling.

do you think Jennifer would say anything that would be any different?

you see, i've spend alot of money to hear the same things from her over and over to make me feel better because i couldn't hear those words here

you know, eav, I don't think she could tell me anything that you haven't. I think it would just be me calling to get reassurance that PlanB itself can work, and, truthfully, we've all heard the stories of these plans working, especially when the people that it has worked for are posting here daily. So, viewing this entire conversation, I would say that I don't need to spend the money right now. I'll save it.

After all, I have counseling to cover for my son now, so it wouldn't be prudent to call the Harleys' so that they can tell me what you just did...and, really nothing has changed. WH is still riding them fences.

i'm not trying to talk you out of it silent

it helped me to get jennifer's reassurance every time because i NEEDED to get it from somewhere

i'm just saying that it's alot of money to spend so be sure of what you're looking for

many of my sessions with her have just been paying here to repeat what she's already said to me so that i could continue to have hope

but.....the good feelings from the session never last long once i get back to this site

because i'm NOT listening to the few people who ARE supporting my plan B and my hope of recovering my marraige and the belief that it's still possible

instead, i keep looking for MORE people to say the same things or people to change their thinking and agree that there is hope

you know what though.....hearing the expert herself tell me there is hope got me through some tough times

i guess i'm just frustrated and saddened that there isn't more support here for people like us

eav, that seems to be what we our theme is this weekend; finding the support. It's rough, but I agree that there are so many that are dealing with the freshness of finding out about the A, and just trying to fight.

We have all been in that place, and, for the most part, ARE living semi-normal lives again, albeit minus our spouse.

eav, I miss my H. I miss his smile, his touch, his hugs and passionate kisses. He was a good man, as I was/am a good woman. No matter what I've done to negate our past, all the good memories still exist there, as they do with your WH. YOu are a huge part of his life, still.

I think those of us with kids have a NEED to communicate at a regular rate, through intermediaries and lawyers and such, and don't really think on those members here who don't have to, get to deal with their WS on the regular. If it weren't for the kids, we would all be feeling the silence, and I know it can be deafening...

Silent:
I'm off to bed now, but I just wanted to say...you are such an inspiration.

You are the Queen Bee, I think...and I know we kind of joke about the Bee thing, but you are leading the charge, the team manager, drill sergeant...head cheerleader...whatever.

Your wisdom and sensitivity and compassion come through in every single post you make to me and everyone else here.

Thank you so very much for sharing that with me.

((((silent and DS)))

Nightie night you bee's you. I'm off to dreamland too, cross your fingers that they are all good...

I really hate to see you beat yourself up for this. He said all the right things and was sincere about it. It sounds to me that he knows what the right thing to do is and actually wants to do it, but once he got into it he found out he had underestimated how hard it would be. When he first said those things, he meant them, so of course you let him back in. How could you not? When you found out he couldn't do it, you kicked him out again. Unfortunate, sure, but not something to beat yourself up over. What if that had been the one chance for him, and you had refused to let him try, and then he REALLY walked away. How would your son feel abou that?

I think I agree that you are likely to get reassurance from another session with Jennifer. Sometimes it's worth the money, but I think I would try to hold out until WH makes some kind of move.

I'm with you guys on the discussion about Plan B on this site. All I've ever heard from Jennifer is that Plan B is about saving your marriage. I can't think that she would be crazy about the concept of Plan B helping one get ready to move on. The detachment, clear thinking, and self-confidence that come alon with Plan B are perhaps a useful side effect. But Plan B is about saving the marriage. At least, that's my understanding.

WOW..I was nodding in agreement to everything you said in this post and then you said MY NAME..

The reason I know the stuff so well is cause I have SAA practically MEMORIZED..

Almost each line is highlighted and I read it religiously every day....


It's called SURVIVING and affair..which is what I was STRUGGLING to do...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Imagine this..out clothes shopping tonignt with my H and the saleswoman says.."You don't want to make him too handsome do you; he might find him another woman" My response: "I'm WAY PAST that place in my life"...I don't know what that was supposed to mean... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

All I can say about that sales clerk is 'STOOPID WOMAN'. She needs more training.

Mimi, when I read eavs post, my head was a noddin'. I don't think she realizes how much SHE contributes to this site.

sdguy, I'm gonna wait on contacting Jennifer, I think you and eav have both reinforced what I truly already know. I'm not going to beat myself up anymore. [email]D@mnit![/email] That letter was very sincere. I think you are right, my WH had no idea what he was getting himself into, and as he himself said, "I am weak". He is. I thin he needs to hit some bottom to become stronger. Sounds counterintuitive, but so is most of MB concepts, and they work.

SL,

I got drug tested today. Guess who I thought about while peeing in the cup. I'm thinking, here's your protein sample. This stuff's gonna cure cancer or something. They're gonna love it down in the cold room. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

just a little something to make you feel uncomfortable for the rest of the day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


on another note. I fully support your Plan B. Give em HE11!!

SL,

Not a threadjack I hope. LOL

First here is the definition of the word Plan:

1. a scheme or method of acting, doing, proceeding, making, etc., developed in advance: battle plans.
2. a design or scheme of arrangement: an elaborate plan for seating guests.
3. a specific project or definite purpose: plans for the future.

All of them talk about the future really. IMVHO plan A and plan B are in place to try to save an M. There are side effects like feeling better and being prepared to do without the WS if they chose not to come back.

I also see that Jennifer of course urges you to stay until the 2 year period or mabye longer.

What I see really missing here and I know the time frames but a lot don't.

So someone says I been plan "A"ing my tail off for 2 months and nothing. OH Really well give it six and come back.

I am in Plan B now "great be ready for 2 years". It is there to save the love you have.

The other thing I think is that depending on the two individuals some can wait 2 years others can wait 2 months.

It depends on the M. I really don't believe in my sitch I could wait 2 years. Heck I know I couldn't for legal reasons.

Again tehse are all just plan's. Plan's go wrong. Especially when the plan involves someone else that doesn't know or care about your Plan.

On some it works and on others it doesn't.

I think coming here for support is great. I think SL is doing great on SL's plan.

I don't think anyone should wait around indefinately. That is a long time.

If you can wait 5 years that is great. If sl can wait 5 dayst that is great too.

I hope that made sense.

giving a bumpity bump to my thread

Working on some issues of my own. Dealing with some triggers and am working on discussing more boundaries.

We are going to pick up PWC's things from his apartment this afternoon. The move in will be completed this weekend. I find myself feeling a little nervous. I think it's the finality of PWC moving his stuff back in, moving in completely. We did this before, but neither of us were prepared for ways to deal with eachother, as well as protection (mostly on his part).

I plan on having some candid conversations about protection. We have already begun these, but I prefer the snails pace. Learn a bit more, take some time to implement things, move on to the next thing; that way we don't become overwhelmed with what amounts to a massive amount of work. I don't think multitasking recovery is the best tack. Slow and steady.

We have been getting along really well. I found myself thinking about ways for us to keep an eye on eachother. Cell phones, emails, bank accounts, online stuff--there are so many ways to slip through the cracks--and that means me, too! I'm still wary of what happens while he is at work, as the last time that PWC and I attempted recovery (albeit false) Aimless would have lunch with him and be weepy and say things like "I know that we're not supposed to do this, but..."

She knows where he works, knows his work phone number and email (which cannot be changed). This is a very important time and I'm fully aware of how easily PWC could fall back, or atleast break NC. I can't be sure that he won't answer the phone if she called, feeling all responsible for her pain and everything (we all know she had choices, and made the wrong ones). Probably thinking he's doing a good thing by consoling her, then WHAMMO, back into the A.

That's, again, just my brain working with MB and what could happen. I can tell you, one boundary that I have now is that I will not continue a marriage with an WS. We've come too far, and I've worked too hard to ever deal with this again. My heart will ache, and my son will suffer, but I cannot do this again.

What REALLY helped me when I was in your position was to FOCUS ON MYSELF...helped me throughout the process...now it almost comes natural..

FOCUS ON MEETING HIS PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS..that's all that YOU can do REALLY...the better you are at this, the less likely he will feel NEEDY...although he will remain VULNERABLE for a good while...

Meeting his NEEDS helps YOU..GIVING him AFFECTION by HUGGING AND SQUEEZING HIM, helped me FEEL MORE SECURE and I was able to REGISTER.."HE'S REALLY HERE"..that became a habit for me when the FEAR crept in..

FIND YOUR OWN MEANS OF COPING that YOU CAN CONTROL..what can YOU DO to best handle this DIFFICULT SITUATION and time..

I thought of another thing..CALL HIM during the day at work..ask him how he's doing..YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING this way..not sitting around being anxious..waiting for the next ball to drop..

Can you regularly MEET FOR LUNCH?

What I'm saying is ..as much contact with each other as possible..

RECOVERY is sooo DIFFICULT...

Howdy Mimi,

I have been meeting his needs; admiration being one I know is at the forefront; interestingly enough, I'm finding this is a top need for me to.

He's definitely here, present. I think that is where the fear comes in. I am dealing with the fear as it comes, not letting is wash over me, just listening and working with what I've learned so far.

We're actually doing pretty well. Just voicing what's in my head.

My work will be moving to the side of town that he works in, so we may actually be able to get together for lunch on occassion. I do call sometimes, and need to step up on this one. We talk every afternoon, either as I'm driving home or as I'm arriving home, PWC calls. It's nice, and I totally appreciate this effort on his part.

I give him lovin-s daily, hugs and kisses, and looking him in the eye, asking about work, and really listening.

I have learned that I can only control me and work on me. That has really been, and continues to be a great lesson.

We have been working toward a more beautiful garden this year. It's funny, many of the perrenials that haven't looked so great over the last couple of years just began flourishing this spring. Everything is so lush and lovely. We both really loved to get in the garden and get dirty, so that's where we are starting.

I cannot express how much I appreciate the 2x4s and love that you have bestowed upon me over the last year, Mimi. I FINALLY got much of what you had been saying, which is a good thing, cause me and PWC are gonna need it.

Focusing on self is coming more and more easy as the days go by. I, quite literally, tell myself that his things are not mine to control, but my reactions and actions ARE.

SL,

Haven't posted to you in quote some time. Might have been back during the last false recovery.

Anyways, so glad that things are more positive this time. I hope that my path runs the same as yours did.

Best of luck to you and PWC

Silentlucidity:

I worked last night 7p - 7a and have been reading your post here since I got home. I did not get all the way through since I have to get some sleep and work again tonite.Ace suggested that I come to this site and said he thought my story sounded somewhat like yours. You have posted to me once..I do not know how familiar you are with my situation.

I will post, and am hopeing to hear from you. I did notice you and your wh are back together...congratulations and god bless you and your family. I am praying for the same.
Mish

SL,

You are the poster child for doing this right. I really admire you.

I will say this: No matter how this thing ends up you have become an even more wonderful person you then you were before!!

I think the FWH knows this too.

Kudo's and a pat on the back for you.

Any man would be lucky to have you as a W now it seems your H has opened his eyes up and can see how lucky he is that you want him.

Hi, SL...just dropping in on you...I'm so happy for you...well, I guess since you and H are back together then I can't come sit on the deck with you and bad mouth our H's...

And I'll tell you what you say that you admire me but it's SOOO mutual...

Well, you got my email address, LMAO, right along witht he rest of MB!

Oh, and I'll have to agree with Frog...poster child...great advice for SOOO many here! DS is turned 5 when again? Just wondering the boys' b-day's are coming up...21 and 29...Thank God for child support! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks everybody,

I certainly believe that having my MB friends kept me sane while working the plans. It is a tough line to walk.

Rin, DS turned 5 on the 23rd of May. He's so proud of his 5 year old status! He says, "I can touch the bottom of the pool with my toes now, because I'm 5!"--like it granted him super growing powers. He got in the pool at about 10AM and will be in and out all day now.

I tell you what, that poster probably said, "Missing Person" for a long time. It's amazing how much you lose of yourself if you aren't careful. Well, I'm found now. Feeling so much more like myself, so much more comfortable in my skin, in no small part thanks to the push from you guys to get it together. Thanks.

LMAO...kind of like if I buy these shoes, I can jump higher! You have to love kids!

This year is really going to be different for you...DS going to school...are you going to cry, mom? I'm not sure how I'll feel with L going to school this year...

Probably excited and want to celebrate...I'll be getting a raise without the extra child care cost! WOOHOO!

Well, I know once I get settled over here, you ever want to make a trip back to New Orleans you are more than welcome to stay with me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rin, I may take you up on that!

I totally get the break in child care costs; I do so love my work, though, so I found DS great care--my dad is taking him during the day for the summer.

I will probably cry the first day of school; I'm a bit of a weeper--not slobbery mess, but crocodile tears, just a few, uncontrollably leaping from my eyes...

LOL...I understand that! STBX made me follow the bus the five blocks to school on F's first day of school...

He was the one nervous and "I" had to follow the bus...I didn't get it!

I'm the same way...I'm not a sobber...more like a slient crier!

Well, you know how to get in touch with me...feel free when you feel the need!

I thought I would just send up a little update.

Recovery is slow going. I am filling out the EN's questionnaire, have been lazy about getting this thing moving. I wanted to just get settled in a bit before jumping into things; I may have expected that PWC was going to leave again, I dunno, just waiting a month for the honeymoon period to be over.

Now, I feel that PWC needs to know what my NEEDS are and how to go about filling up my LB. He mentioned the same and I hope he will fill it out, so that I can begin to do the same (fill the LB).

I have a wall around me right now, and need PWC's help in breaking it down; it took a long time to build, and it will take some time to demolish it. I almost feel guilty for having it in the first place. I feel like it hurts his feelings, but I think the truth hurts his feelings, not me, and *I* may remind him of the truth. He still seems to be holding onto the ideal of perfection, noticeable in small things. I cannot be perfect, it's impossible. I cannot ignite the feelings of lust that the OW did, because he doens't want me, right now, as he did the OW. There is no CHASE, because I am here. Probably why the wall is still up. I dunno why, it protects me from nothing, just gets in the way.

I guess saying that helps me to dismantle the wall a bit today. The wall protects me from nothing, just shuts him out of my life and ruins our chances for recovery. I am dismantling it more and more as I type this. I guess the wall represents my total lack of trust. I just don't feel as protected as I hoped I would. I'm not even talking about OW, I'm talking about PWC's tendency to look outside of our M for comfort and joy, even if it's temporary. You see, our M right now, is not so great, we're back to how it was pre A's. So, I'm batting the assumptions down left and right. I assume he will just leave when the going gets tough, or when he tires of the work. I can't say I feel he has bent over backwards, but I wonder if that's not just his withdrawal. I'm not looking for any grand gestures of love right now, but there's something to be said about making me feel more comfortable.

I admit that I do not feel like doing any of the heavy lifting right now. Part of the reason that I am filling out the EN questionnaire is so that PWC may have some insight into what I need to FEEL comfortable and vice versa. I'm feeling selfish, and that serves no purpose. Gotta put the TAKER on the backburner for a while, I suppose. The TAKER is chomping at the bit, as it has been given very little over the past few years, but I know that it can hurt our recovery, so I leave it be, and try to give the best way I know how. Preparing meals, working on the yard, admiring his accomplishments around the house, telling him he looks nice, kisses and hugs initiated by me. Real life has a way of diminishing those things.

For instance, I give him a hug, and begin to talk to him about his day and then DS interrupts and needs help, which bothers PWC (me too). Then the deposit I made is diminished by the interruption. Or the dogs need something or someone from work calls him or his friends call him, real life interrupts.

Vacation was okay. I did get some relaxation in. DS had some bad moments, and PWC and I didn't really get any alone time, or very little, and I could tell he was perturbed by it. My problem is that he didn't initiate anything with me. He went fishing with my dad, while I stayed behind with DS for a whole day. He went down to the beach to fish with my dad, while me and DS played in the surf or on the beach in the sand. He was detached.

I hurt my back Monday afternoon, and I sense that he is upset with me. I don't know why, but I have sensed that he has had problems with me being ill in the past. It seems like he feels burdoned during those times. I can't be sure, because when I ask, he says he's fine, so I'm going with that. He's fine. I can only go with what he says and does. It's a perception, a feeling, and intuition that I have, no backed by his saying anything, so I'm leaving it at he's fine...

We, obviously, are so very early into this, and I have no expectation that PWC will know me right away, or change his behaviors until he is ready or wants to. He may never want to. I have already accepted that I do not control him, but that doens't mean that I will not get discouraged and that it won't affect me. I'm still happy, albeit in pain right now, but I know the pain will pass over the next week, so I'm okay with that. PWC just seems so negative, about our dog, especially, and he's really not even that bad. He whines when he wants or needs something, which is not actually all that often, mostly he sleeps. I'm considering finding another person to take care of him, but I don't know if I can part with him. My dogs have been a tremendous comfort over the last two years; maybe PWC just can't understand the attachment I have. I also feel responsible for that dogs health and happiness to some extent. He's already been passed around so much, and I've made some strides with him. Anyway, that's a discussion for another day.

SL,

I notice the same thing, there were no fireworks or gongs or anything.

It was like we were married again. A lot more gaurded and we now know our EN's and there is a little more focus on that but for the most part it is pretty boring.

Somewhat like it was before this mess started.

Little different but essentially the same.

Yeah, no bells or whistles. Like I said, I don't have expectations, just want to work on things and get back on track. I would love, one day, for PWC to look at me with adoring eyes and tell me how much he loves me. That's my goal, for us BOTH to be happy.

I don't think our M was all that bad, we just forgot to care for eachother, thought it wasn't as dire as it was. Now, we both know that we need to work at this. I'm just feeling disenchanted, prolly because of PMS bringing on the melancholy.

Thanks for always being the first to prompt me into posting, Frog. You are good at getting me to write it all down. Maybe others will get something out of what I write, learn something, even if it is what NOT to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe the dog is a safe outlet for bad feelings (of which he must have lots and lots)?


Words out of my mouth again. I'm so proud of you for hanging in, SL. Thanks for keeping us posted.

SL, okay this is where I CAN help (I hope). I understand perfectly what you're saying because I felt the same when my H first came home. You two HAVE to talk. You have to have that freedom to come clean with each other about what you're feeling. At one point I felt like I was going to explode if I didn't get IT said, what I needed to say, without fear of reprisal or rejection.

So, I told my dear H there are some things I need to say to you and I need you to "hear me". I'm not saying them to be mean, it's just how I feel. If I can't trust you with my feelings, then who can I trust?

Then I told him... everything I felt during, before and especially after. I told him this is where I am. I felt like I'd been robbed. That his time away was time stolen from our family that could never be replaced. There were some things I needed from him. I know you're home. I LOVE that you're home. But we can't really start healing unless you help me deal with this.

After it was over he asked me, "Feel better?" I did. He held me. I told him that there would be more times when I needed to unload but that everytime I did, it was a little more healing. I also told him that he could do the same with me. I did not WANT the marriage we had pre-A. Neither did he. The only way we could avoid that was to be REAL and CAREFUL with each other.

It gets better SL... you're understandably leery. So is he. But one of you have to take the bull by the horns and get this recovery ball rolling for real.

Thanks.guy. It's nice to know that others had the same issues.

princessmeggy, your insight is just what I need right now. For one, I need to know that his reactions and mine are normal under these circumstances. I emailed PWC the link to the thread that Melody started about forgiveness, and the link to the EN's questionnaire. HE agrees that we need to get this ball rolling, which is good.

I think discussing our needs will open us up a bit more to discussion of what we need to move forward. I'm leery, and I have been fighting back my sense of entitlement to ammends for the damages done. I don't think it works that way. I don't really know how it works, but I feel that I cannot move forward without him putting himself out there on the limb.

SL:

For US, RECOVERY was REAL SLOW going.

My H remained IN THE FOG to some extent for a full 6 months and didn't seem NORMAL until a year.

It's taken until NOW...4 years... for me to often FORGET that he ever had an affair.

I had to do most of the work. The best way to describe it is sort of a continuance of PLAN A..but, different than that..he SLOWLY but SURELY began to meet my NEEDS...but he was doing a lot of his own work of learning to live in the REAL WORLD...

Your expectations may be a bit TOO HIGH, SL...

If you want this, it's YOUR WORK on YOURSELF..not expecting him to do this for you..YOU TEARING DOWN THE WALL..YOU CONTINUING TO BE THE BEST WIFE THAT YOU CAN BE...YOU GIVING YOUR MARRIAGE PRIORITY OVER ANYTHING ELSE...that is, IF YOU WANT TO DO YOUR PART...

He needs to feel that he is NUMBER 1 in your life..Yes, put him first over your dog, SL...if the dog bothers HIM, it needs to be considered and dealt with...

I totally understand your struggles..but you've come this far...it's the end of the marathon..don't give up now...

It's just been ONE MONTH...

He's absolutely still in WITHDRAWAL I would think...

You haven't seen the REAL PWC yet...

I second that. I guess now that I think about it, we didn't really start having those conversations until almost a year after he came home. Before that I felt like I too was doing all the heavy lifting. He was recovering from his own stuff first (which was critical).

Hearing Billy Graham talk about his LOVE for his WIFE and how they REKINDLED THEIR ROMANCE in RECENT YEARS..and how he can't wait to be with her....touched me SOOO today...brought tears to my eyes...I called my H and said "I LOVE YOU" and "THANKS, FOR LOVING ME"....

I suspect that PWC is having his own personal struggles. I truly do understand this, and that he is only beginning withdrawal, not necessarily just from OW, but from the lifestyle, too. It's a big difference coming from the 'single' life back into M and family.

I am not pushing him by any means, but I need him to focus on the M, too. LEt me know what his top EN's are so that I can meet them, and help to keep him focused on the prize, a loving, happy M.

I agree, it has only been one month, and I'm NOT filled with ANY expectations, as I said. I'm living this and learning this, but I sensed the PWC needs an outlet and is having a hard time with that, so I thought talking about something like EN's questionnaire may help him to begin to talk out loud about what's inside.

I'm seeking others' experiences so that I can guage what steps *I* can take to help PWC. I'm concerned that I will lead us astray with lack of action. Again, I'm going with my gut, which tells me that PWC needs to say some things in a safe place. I think talking about what we have written will help him to feel safe, especially if I do not REACT with anger or sadness. I really am interested in what he needs, beyond a sexual nature. I am pretty sure that SF is at the top of the list, but am wondering how he ranks his ohter needs and if something that isn't on the list is something that he has as a need.

Thanks all for chiming in; I am happy to know that you guys are there when I need to be realigned. I look forward to seeing the 'REAL' PWC again, 'cause he was great. I hope I can also unvail the REAL Silent. I can hear the walls crashing down (my walls). This is my first experience at really seeing the fog begin to dissipate, so this is new for me. Even in our long false recovery, the fog was ever present the ENTIRE time, this time, it's different, even just the way he looks at me. He knows NOW that his eyes are very telling.

A good question might be, besides learning about EN's and filling them, what do I do over the next 6 months to a year to help the situation? Just keep up with maintenance of the needs he will make me aware of? I suppose that it is a really important part of recovery, and that is why I am asking PWC if we can start there. I need to reread HNHN and SAA, which doesn't really take that long.

I plan on getting an exercise schedule together for myself and working toward a change in eating habits (the last two years have taken a big tole). I plan on building up my muscles a bit, to help avoid the back going out sitch and getting back to dancing and hitting my heavy bag (great stress reliever). I plan on working on my personal recovery more and more. I want to get back, physically and mentally, to a healthier state. I know I will feel better if I take care of myself.

I was thinking of telling you what you already posted.

I FOCUSED EVEN MORESO ON MY OWN PERSONAL RECOVERY..making myself more of an EXAMPLE for him rather than TEACHING HIM or PROBING him..I set the TONE of the HOUSE...being the best PARTNER I could be to a HURTING HUSBAND...

And he FELL IN LOVE WITH ME..that was MY GOAL..he wasn't IN LOVE with me AT FIRST..but he has become CRAZY about ME...I WORK ON THIS DAILY..STILL DO...

I read lots of lots of books during that time..lots of stuff about MANHOOD..whatever seemed pertinent...

wrote lots in my journal..

had lots of LIGHTBULB MOMENTS about myself right here on the FORUM...

I'm not one of those who ASKED my H what his primary ENs are...I learned so much more by figuring that out for myself...

It's OBVIOUS though...

I recommend THE PROPER CARE AND FEEDING OF HUSBANDS by DR. LAURA....great start....

You know, it's funny, I was thinking the same thing, I mean, figuring his EN's out as we go. I really do want to be the best me possible, and not just for PWC, but for myself; I've let a lot of my personal happiness go, and that serves no purpose, and stunts only ME. I don't mean selfish pursuits, but things that help to build upon my character. Opening myself back up.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I've heard this book is great! I'll look into getting it on CD; I enjoy 'reading' while I'm driving. It's my own little space and it's uninterrupted time to listen. Usually, I'm pumping the music, but I do enjoy a good book now and then.

And like I was posting to DIG this morning...

Of course, I believe in the MBer's Philosophy..

But, in regards to my husband's ENs, it really just boiled down to the BASICS of taking good care of HIM like a WIFE should..like Dr. Laura talks about in her book...



Exactly, SL..this part of this journey has been wonderful for me. I have turned my WHOLE LIFE around, doing things PERSONALLY that I never would have done before. Let him alone for awhile and GO ON A PERSONAL ADVENTURE and that will LURE him towards YOU..you will be LEARNING AND GROWING and he will be ATTRACTED to that...

Oh, Mimi, Thanks bunches!

I really do believe that his intial attraction to me was my sense of self, my independent nature, while still being present and available. I want that back. I'm pretty tired of saying NO (having a little kid can keep you in that place). I want to say YES, for me and for my family.

I do want my husband to be happy; I'm almost positive that he will come around to giving again; he used to be pretty good at it. He was so affectionate and we would play fight in bed and just nuzzle and kid, and he would make me smile and laugh, throw your head back laugh, snortle laugh, and that was really not all that long ago.

WE are both so changed by this leg of our journey, and are probably both a little road weary. I do feel for him, in his quest to rejoin our family. I'm sure it is tough; again, like he's an alien in his own life. YUCK!

Leaving him be is probably the best advice I could receive. I will continue to learn about him, to listen, to touch and to show love. His actions are his to do with and own.

I'm excited about beginning a new exercise program; gonna work toward running a 5K and doing weight training (gotta take care of my muscles so my bones don't give out). I loathe running, but cardio is good for the soul. I'm going to work on my domestic capacity, too. Get back to cooking and baking; I've fallen waaaaay off that wagon.

Hmmm, I guess it is like Plan A, except the pressure to end the A is no longer there. Plan R is good.

Thanks for the reminders Mimi. I hope others are reading along and can see what questions arise. THis place is amazing.

I just finished watching a movie called "The Guys" on Starz, about a firehouse captain post 9/11, after 8 of his men perished, and his need to eulogize them. He found a writer to help him with the eulogies. He had traded shifts with one of his Lieutenants for that Tuesday morning, and was asking the writer what the reason was for him not being there that day, for not perishing that day.

The writer responded 'None'. There were no reasons.

She was also writing her own prose on the subject and remembered people asking when things would be 'normal' again. The answer that she came up with was things will be normal again, just a NEW normal.

I began to cry. This is what we all deal with, to some extent. Learning to live the new normal, whatever that may be, be it Dday, false recoveries, plan A, plan B, or DIVORCE, it's all a new normal.

Recovery, for me, is a new normal, because I have never looked so much at myself and my actions and lack thereof in my life. I'm changed, PWC is changed, my son is changed and we cannot fit back into the neat tidy box of normal; we must adapt to the new normal.

That's life, isn't it, SL?

New normals.

The first few days--heck! months!!--after DS11 was born. I went from being just me to being a MOM. Childbirth was just as life-altering for me as it was for that baby.

New normals that occur every time a relationships begins...or ends. Whenever someone we care for dies or becomes chronically ill or moves away. Whenever someone gets married. Whenever we move, change schools, start a new job, begin a new tradition.

Some "normals" are less extraordinary than others...or are a "step up" from the previous normal, and thus are more easy to adapt to.

It's the uncomfortable new normals...it's like getting used to a new pair of shoes that don't fit well. You might start out with a blister at first, but eventually, a callous will form. You don't want the callous, and the shoes still rub you wrong, but at least you aren't bleeding all over the place.

The hope, I guess, is that eventually you can throw away the darn uncomfortable shoes...and go barefoot, wiggling your toes in the lush green grass, or in the sand at the beach.

That would be the NEXT new normal. See, the good thing about "new normals" is that it leaves the door open for a better one to come around.

(((silent)))

SL,

Wow very well articualted. There are times that something like that comes a long and I go aha it makes sense.

Not always dealing with A's either where the words just finally fall into place.

A new normal.

Maybe that's why M's stick after an A sometimes: The new normal is really better then the old normal. To bad it took an A to change the normal.

NOrmally I think I am much clearer about being normal but I am getting confused by my self.

Weird how life does that. I was talking to my mom the other day and she asked how I was. I was really choked up by her surgery, the FWW's thing now more stuff, problems with OS behavior, work practice whatever I have just been swamped. LOL. My mom asked me how I was and I said fine, she said Frog you have a lot on your plate "how are you?" I said fine.

Funny thing. I really am fine. I don't know pre A if that would have been the case.

With MC, IC, MB and everythign else my new normal seems OK. Nothing spectacular, no fireworks, nothing to mark an end and a new beginning.

The thing is though is things are better.

The one thing that I think never leaves my mind though is this is the normal we had before and it wasn't good enough. I think it keeps me more aware.

I agree. You have a better sense of awareness, of being present in your life, not letting things go on.

I'm super hyper aware right now, maybe a bit itchy, and am calming down. I am filling out the EN's questionnaire, mostly so I can understand my OWN needs, and maybe understand what PWC's MAY be.

Some moments he is there, he is smiling, kisses me, still no hugs, but he is present. Some moments, he is tense, sitting away from me. Laughs with DS, and plays with him, but I'm on the outskirts of that, still a fractured family, a fractured fairy tale, that never really existed.

I can see why recovery takes so long. You can't possibly stand talking of the R day in and day out. I carry many war wounds, and cannot begin describing them all at one time. I don't think PWC would be able to withstand the pain this may cause HIM. It's a lot. Much more than I knew while in Plan B. It's easy to not think about the wounds that were inflicted directly by WH, when he is not around to prod them with the pitchfork. However, when they come home and commit to the M, those wounds are noticeable again, infected, oozing. To show someone all of that at one time could be unbearable and cause much further problems.

Anyhoo, I am much more aware, and am still learning to self soothe and let go of the notion of control. That notion comes back, in the early recovery; like you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I dropped the reigns this week.

He is available for you to MEET all of his NEEDS as YOU CAN.

That actually made me FEEL BETTER...because it was ACTIONS that I could take..I could DO SOMETHING...to relieve my ANXIETY...

Continue to BE THE BEST WIFE THAT YOU CAN BE..as in PLAN A...that will help you in your own PERSONAL RECOVERY....

When I was feeling anxious for example, I would reach over and hug him or rub him or just simply TOUCH HIM...I would go to the grocery store and get the ingredients for one of his FAVORITE MEALS...I would try to SURPRISE him with a CERTAIN OUTFIT...HE IS THERE..Lure him..CAPTIVATE HIM with your WIFELY CHARMS...HE had chosen YOU..HE IS YOUR MAN!!!

SL,

Open indeed. Long story short we had OS in IC. IC says problems maybe a syptom of our M problems. He wants to talk to us.

I mention to IC this is a hard time since this is when FWW had her A.

She says in a not so nice tone, "it has been 4 years" is he ever going to get over it.

IC who is now MC says "When I started MC the accepted time frame was about a year for someone to "get over it", now it is generally accepted about 5 years."

He stressed that is only if the FWS does some heavy lifting.

Funny thing though he pointed out to her that she seems to be the one sending wrong signals.

Anyway realize this is a long term thing. I look back over months now instead of minutes, hours and days.

It is getting better.

Don't be hard on yourself. Also the hypersensitivity could do a little damage.

He may have gas so he is making weird faces and he also doesn't want to offend you sense of smell so he doesn't want you in his general vacinity.

You may think his faces means he is upset with you and he doesn't want to be around you which proves it.

Mimi, I am definitely hearing you AND taking your advice. I do things because I want or need to. I hug him, touch him, kiss him. I'm staying away from the ILY's right now. We say it now and then; mostly I'm being complementary, showing how I appreciate him. I was so angry before the A's that I wasn't very grateful for the things he did, I was only looking at what he DIDN'T do, and that was soooo wrong.

I recognize what he is doing. For instance, he sent me an email today explaining that he was just tired yesterday after being at the racetrack Saturday, so he apologized for just falling to sleep early last night. To me, I KNEW he was tired, and thought he may want to hit the hay earlier than usual, so it didn't bother me. It was nice for him to recognize that I could have taken it as a slight. I did not. It's just the thought that counts, really.

Obviously, communication is key. Just saying what you are grateful for, instead of ASSUMING the other person KNOWS already, without you saying a word, is paramount. I get this now. I think I say "Thank you" for the smallest things now, like taking the garbage out, going to get groceries, cooking dinner, letting me sleep for a few more minutes. All the little things were what was killing me before. I felt like I was doing everything.

Truth was, he was helping in his own way, and I didn't recognize it. Now, that doesn't mean that he was perfect, flawless in his approach with me, either. We were just not communicating, and when we did, neither of us REALLY listened to the other. Honestly, it was ridiculous behavior, that got us into a whole mess of trouble.

You are right Mimi, he's there, he's mine. I like that I can be possesive of him in some way. Not OBSESSIVE, but mark my territory, in a way that says, DON'T MESS WITH US. I want to be tight like that again, a true UNION. US. Not ONE, but US.

He'll come around SL. I like what you said about communication. It gets better, trust me.

My DH and I have a "thing" now that when one of us does something small for the other (like I'll make him tea without his asking) or he'll bring me a coke (without my asking), the receiving person will say "thank you" and the other will grin and say "it's the little things." That's a BIG thing that has changed in our marriage post-affair. We are "CARE"ful with each other and pay attention to even the little things.

This "little thing" came about as a result of a conversation we had about things that had gone wrong before. Both of us cared about the big things (paying the bills, raising the kids, etc.) but both of us were guilty about neglecting the little things.

P.S. How many times can you say "things" in a post? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh, you guys are so wonderful. I am so grateful that you support me, every single day, I thank god for you.

Frog, you always know what I'm saying, always get it.

Mimi, you have been there, done that, and have a positive way of expressing what you have been through and ways to get passed this part. I'm ever so grateful for you, as you have been there from the beginning of my posts, slappin me upside the head.

princessmeggy, you are steeped in being grounded. It's so wonderful that you took the time to post your whole mess, and now take the time to talk about the 'little things' in recovery that help spurn things along.

I know that PWC hears me and sees me now. He recognizes that I'm trying to change and become a better me, too. He's said so much. It really is the little things that can kill us and the little things that can save us...

Sl,

I think that may be a key to it. The saying what you think the other person already knows.

It is the consideration of the other person that is always the first to go.

You really are doing great. He is lucky to have you and your kid is really cute.

Frog,

It really is, isn't it. We start treating our spouses like posts, stumps, while we heave all of our crap onto them, we forget to soothe and care for them.

THe fact that we even begin to heave all of our crap on them is a sure sign that we are out of touch.

Ah, you must have seen the MB photo board. I figured it was time to give people a face. PWC has had a website for some time now, but hasn't updated it, so I'm not concerned about people seeing what we look like. I don't think y'all could track me down from just a photo. H3ll, knowing how I got info on Aimless, I'm pretty sure someone could find me if they really wanted to.

I thanked my husband for being my cell phone monitor. Whenever the low battery indicator starts to beep, he puts it on the recharger; he has been doing this for the entire month that he has been home. I thought it was very thoughtful. It really is nice. Heck, he could just be bothered by the bleeping noise, but he still is doing me a favor by plugging it in, so I emailed a thank you to him.

I sense a slight shift in PWC, toward being considerate, nice. He told me I looked nice this morning, and [email]d@mn[/email] near made my day! I forgot how it felt to just be nice to each other. Crazy, huh!

I'm so happy for you SL! You sound great! And what a wonderful reminder about appreciating the little things...because they aren't so little, are they?

Off to check the photo thread...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just a different normal. LOL

Even though I post here my job is pretty stressful, and demanding.

I tell my FWW that and I don't think she always gets it. Today she called and asked if she could stop by. I was like no way. Not in a mean way but in a busy way.

She said well you don't have to be mean. I wasn't being mean and I told her so.

I said I love you but my job is really hectic and busy.

So later she called asking if I had any fires today I said of course every day.

The thing is I don't bring it home so my family doesn't really know.

One day she asked about my day and I told her.

She said "Sorry you had such a bad day" I looked at her and said Bad day that was a good day.

Now she knows a little more about how my days go.

I think I am a happy go lucky kind of guy so they don't know.

But the communication is getting there. The appreciation is getting there.

Where before she had an expecation and a sense of entitlement she knows how good she has it.

The other day I was going over comissions she looked at mine and realized my commision this month is more then she makes in 3 months.

But I never ever say it is my money. It is ours. Now she knows this and sees it.

Just being aware. Knowing the other person is doing big and little.

I think talking about your job, your day, is a good thing, no matter how straining the day was, it joins you two together. It's part of your life, and she wants to share in that. I think that is great. I also think it's funny that something someone else would consider a bad day, is actually a fine day for you!

I guess we are all trying to get back to what is OURS, right?

Even without PWC, I was working toward OURS, in terms of my son and me, our family, such as it was.

I'm happy that PWC and I are working at it though. I know I'm going to learn so much more, and despite the pain, I do so love to peer into the guts of something, take it apart and learn about it. I'm that analytical sort. I'm trying to learn to just let things be what they are, and accept things, instead of trying to dissect it all.

Ah, the sweet days of recovery.

Well, I think I'm a bit stressed these days, as indicated by my body. I have unexplainable headaches, and some digestive 'issues' that are, too, the unexplained. I had a sonogram performed yesterday to check in the area where I've been having some regular pain. This was a slowly emerging pain, so I thought it wise to have it checked. Waiting to hear from my doctor about that. I'm not alarmed about it, really more curious, but I'm sure my mind is labored with the 'what could be's".

We did go out to see the Baltimore symphony orchestra perform this weekend. They screened "The Wizard of Oz" and played the accompanying original score. It was great! DS just loved it! It pleased PWC to find something that DS would love. I enjoyed it too. I have always like that movie. I was one of those kids plunked down in front of the TV every year to watch it, popcorn at the ready.

Anyway, not much new happening. I just wanted to let y'all know where I was. I have asked PWC to sit down with me on a regular basis and talk about the A's, answer some of my questions, as I will answer some of his. Sort of a question/answer session, so that we can move forward from ground zero.

Intersting thing, I find myself afraid to ask PWC questions, because I don't want HIM to be uncomfortable. How odd is that? I don't want to hurt HIM with my questions. I do tell myself, "Silent, let's be for real here, he had two affairs that you know of, about which you know not much. How will you get beyond this without asking the questions?"

If you read the above questions, you will see how easy it is to begin to adopt that wayward foggy line of reasoning. As in, not wanting to hurt HIM, when in reality, I have been completely stripped of my trust mechanism and must rebuild. It's easier, initially, to just ignore a wound, but when left unattended, without care or resolve, it festers and fills with puss (white blood cells going wild) and your body begins it's revolt. Hence the belly tied in knots. I need to hear some answers to move forward. PWC has agreed to this.

It seems that I am leading TEAM RECOVERY for now, and am beginning to understand that withdrawal isn't just from the source (OW) but from the frame of mind, the lifestyle and more.

Oh, I also hope that the question and answer/discussion sessions will open up the floor to discuss our wants and needs and hopes and dreams. I don't just want to sit him down and grill PWC, I want to open the floor to question me, also. I welcome the conversation, to be honest.


I realize now that love takes tending to, and right now, that tending feels like the intial sowing of a field. IT takes great effort to ready the soil, a lot of back breaking, sweaty work, but if you do a good job, your plants will thrive. We're still working on what amendments to add...

((((SL)))))

You just impress the he11 out of me. I have so much to say but work keeps getting in the way!

Hang in there, SL, you are doing SO well.

fox

Hey fox, when you have time, you can email. I wanted to talk to you anyway.

okie dokie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let me clear some of this mess of my desk and I'll throw you a line.

Fox

SL,

Get what you need so you can move on.

In your garden analogy the past are old dead plants. They need to be cleared out so the new plant can thrive. Unless of course they decompose and then they become nutrients for the soil. Well too much nutrients aren't good either so maybe the plant would do ok but not thrive. I don't remember where I was going with that.

I want salad for some reason now.

Any way all kidding aside you seem to be moving from phase to phase in a good methodical method.

Figuring out what you need then moving forward.

very well done. Communicating that to your FWH as well.

Sounds like he is willing to give you what you need.

Good work.

Thanks for checking in Frog; in matters of recovery, it is nice to have someone IN recovery to guide you and even just let you know that what you are experiencing is normal.

I still feel raw, unprotected. I know that I can perservere in almost any situation now. Truthfully, recovery is at PWC's pace, with me guiding things a bit.

He is suffering from depression. He doesn't sound very fulfilled right now, from how he speaks down to his actions. From what he hints at during conversation, it sounds like he is suffering withdrawal, but again, what type of withdrawal, I'm unsure (from OW, from lifestyle, from ignoring his problems, or all of the above). We haven't gotten down to any nitty gritty, and I really want to take this very slowly.

I'm hoping to formulate some questions this week to ask about the affairs. I'm really more interested in the WHY's than the WHENs, WHERE's and WHAT's. I would like to know how he got to the point of making the decision to have his first affair.

I think the fantasy was, initially, very easy to maintain. Real life was kept at bay for some time.

Mostly, I often wonder how he's doing, really, how he's doing? From conversation, he sounds like he wants to go on AD's. I think it would be good for him. He's more active than I've seen him in the past, but I'm unsure what kind of dent that is making in the depression. It sounds like the relief is very short lived.

I feel badly for him. I know he's struggling. I know he's in pain. I know he is a bit lost. I know he is happy to be home, but unhappy to be home.

On a good note, he is so very helpful in matters of child rearing and discipline now. He is very supportive. I feel like a team, when it comes to DS.

I read today about two people from MB in recovery for two years now. They sound solid. That's really my goal. To laugh and love and feel a bit free from the chains of the A's, and of the behavior that begets the A's.

Seems about right. This part seemed weird to me but it is what it is. To this day I have a hard time rectifying that. But you seem to realize it and that is a good place to be.


What I see is it is less of an actual decesion per se. It is a process to get to a point where the line is blurred. At what point was the line blurred to make it seem ok is hard to determine.

It could have happened years ago and then the opportunity presented itself later.

I think in my case the A mentatlity was firmly in place before the A ever occured. My FWW just really didn't have the opportunity until it occured.

So dont' think that one day a switch went off in his head and he did it. The switch may have flicked an a year or two later the opportunity presented itself.


Well that makes sense. Home is supposed to be safe but he created an environment that it isn't.

It is uncomforatble. To me the only way I could think about it is when you go out with the guys and lose track of time a little. You are happy to be home then you look at your watch and go crap I am late. Then a little sense of uh oh hits you. For a FWS I am sure that holds true sometimes.

It is hard to be understanding of self inflicted pain but it is necessary.

Kinda like when you tell the kids stop doing that and then boom they fall and get hurt. You still comfort them.


That is great. We are finally getting there and it is making things better for everyone.

Wow, Frog, you made a very good point about the thought process that opens the door to wayward behavior. I am not immune from this.

I can safely say that *I* felt more of a sense of entitlement after our son was born. I became resentful after DS second year, when PWC was spending the bulk of his free time with his friends, while I lay in bed or read a book or did whatever by myself. I became the thing that he slept with. It was awful.

I felt I deserved to be happy, so I, too, began to go out very often with my friends. We excluded each other to the detriment of our relationship. We no longer lingered past our 'normal' bedtime in conversation. We no longer touched each other, paid any attention to each other. We lost interest in eachother's interests. When I think back to that environment now, I feel so sorry for the condition that I helped to put us in.

Now, I think opportunity arose when PWC started working in a very female dominant environment. To this day, I still think he doesn't fully get how this may have, on at least three occassions, lent itself to easy infidelity.

Again, I remember him recently asking me if it made me more comfortable to know that some of the ladies he works with are married with children. I said no, while thinking to myself, how does that keep people from infidelity, the having children?; children don't even really come to mind when you are in deep. Not really. So to me, people who are married are no less a threat than single people.

I think, in his way, he was trying to set my mind at ease, but that's not going to do it. Time and reinforcement that he is working toward recovery are really all that will work. Protection of our relationship, OF ME, is paramount to me not feeling threatened. Even if he leaves that company, and get's another job, unless it's an all male environment, there's always that chance.

Frog, I want to thank you so much for helping to straighten me out on some points, and show me that I'm not nuts for doing things the way I am.

SL,

I don't think anyone is really immune to infidelity.

I think back across our M and there was a time I had a lot of opportunities to have an A. At the time I could never imagine having one.

I think at times though you are suceptible(spelling) and then boom the opportunitiy presents itself.

I wonder sometimes what my level is.

I know there were times after D Day I got pretty tempted because of the anger but didn't do it.

I never hit my breaking point but I don't fool myself into believing it will not happen. Maybe that is the key. Never fooling yourself into beleiving you won't cross the line.

Because then you blur the boundries and next thing you know you have crossed it.

By the way I never said you weren't nuts.

LOL

Time and reinforcement are the only things that can bring back that safe feeling.

The more reinforcement the less time I think.

Well, right now there is nearly no reinforcement, but I was expecting that. We are still living in a PWC world. I'm not saying that sarcastically. I am ahead, he is way behind. We are together, sort of taking one day as it comes and goes.

PWC's personal recovery has not really started yet. He does not like the counselor that he has been working with (which I don't find unusual at all); mostly, PWC feels no connection with any counsel he's had so far. They all ask him the same questions about diet and exercise and drinking, and history, but I think PWC doesn't stay long enough to just get that out of the way, and move on to the grit of his problems. Again, I think meds would do him a world of good, at least temporarily, if he so chooses.

I don't know what is typical for men going through withdrawal, but I will continue to post and get feedback. I dream of a day when we are both sitting together having supper or out having a drink, and we have things to talk about, we don't have to grasp for a subject, we feel free again. Can you tell that I'm feeling a bit stifled right now?

Truthfully, much of this recovery has not made ME UNhappy, it just gives me stress. I have found that I am generally happy, just ME; I laugh and smile and goof and all that more often during my daily routine than I had in the past two years, so that's somethin'. I hope to bring that to my relationship more and more.

And yes, I AM nuts, so what of it?!

SL,

Are you guys in MC?

I like you am a happy person. I think if you told anyone around me what I have been going through or I have been through, they would be shocked.

It doesn't change the fact I want that part of my life to be a great source of happiness.

Not a source of okness or contentment, but happiness.

Recovery is slow but at some point, I don't think he is there yet, he has to start catching up.

I think your patience will pay off. It takes a while for the FWS to see there is a better way.

I also think the FWS is apprehensive(sp) that a better happier M could exist because they still probably have the thought that if the shoe were on the other foot they would be out the door.

So it is somewhat of a feeling out regaining trust period. He may be waiting for the day for you to wake up and realize you should kick him out.

So on both sides I am sure there is that trust issue. He needs to trust that his efforts will not result in the divorce he thinks may be coming.

I hope that made sense.

And as far as being nuts just watch out for squirrels.

Silentlucidity:

I just read your most recent post..you know you are such a giving person. I am so wrapped up in "my crisis" that I hardly ever read or post to others.

You and Ace have been such a life line to me all these monthes. . there are days when I checked for responses to my posting every fifteen minutes or so..just for the security of knowing someone is there and cares. God Bless You ..because he has certainly blessed me with your friendship. I hope one day we will all be through this, and one day I can reach out and help another as you have me.

Mish

What about YOU meeting HIS NEEDS? No positive feedback from him when you do that. This includes SF....

It will come.

That does come. It will get to the point where what happened between you isn't always in the back of your minds or threatening to intrude in every conversation. It just takes time for the pain to lessen and for you both to begin to feel safe with each other again.

In fact, my DH and I can talk openingly and freely now about the things that happened back then. Sometimes we can even joke about certain things (like the cellphone in the toliet!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SL ~ I am so, so, so relieved to know that I am not the only one. I struggle with this quite a lot, it's been very disheartening to me lately.

Like Chrisner said, "it will come back". I sure hope so, because it's been depressing me lately, that hard as I might try, there just isn't anything there. Or, anything I feel free enough to shre, anyways.

They don't call this a roller coaster for nuthin', now do they?

Oh yeah, and this...THIS is so very true (ok, I know you posted it awhile ago, but I just read it now):


Learning to live this "new normal", it's hard, isn't it? And maddening ~I don't WANT to live a "new normal", where my H's affair came and blew my "old normal" to h*ll. A normal in which a wretched affair came and destroyed everything.

But, I can b*tch and complain about it as much as I want, it isn't gonna change anything.

Accepting it is my only option, and it's just taking a while. It's hard and it's frustrating and drainig and...so many other things.

But we're working hard at building that "new, better" marriage, and that's the only thing we have to keep us going. Right, SL?

MF stated where my pain is right now, this new normal, RIGHT NOW, is so very hard to swallow. I'm chewing with my mouth closed, and the texture is not pleasant, so I gag here and there, and when I finally do swallow, I feel a bit of relief. The next bite comes and I chew away.

Mimi, as for SF, well, I do initiate. To be honest, I think I'm pretty good at it. No slouch. He seems pleased, so far. I've got some things up my sleeve. Unfortunately, my back going out threw me for a loop, so I haven't been initiating (and he hasn't at all--maybe afraid of rejection), and today, well, I've got a sore throat, pretty bad, like cotton balls are in there. May have the dreaded strep again, not sure. When it rains...

I fulfill needs he has from what he does, for recreational, conversational, affection, financial. He plans outtings and I go, and enjoy. He plans get togethers and I am happy to be there and entertain. I am working on my physique, although I am attractive and somewhat fit, I could do better on the fitness. I cook more regularly. I stay up later now, to talk or watch movies or what not. I help with projects that he shows enthusiasm for. I listen with TRUE interest about his work and his day.

Also, and this is my struggle right now, I am hugely triggered by the fourth of July holiday. A time when OW#1 came to my home, into my home, and talked so sweetly to me, and about me and about my son, meanwhile, she's having an affair with my H. Can we say TRIGGER? Yup, big one. I will be discussing this with PWC, just so he's aware, not to punish, but to make him aware.

It's getting worse as the day comes closer. I deal with the emotions and move on, but they keep coming at me. It's nuts really. If we make it past the next couple of weeks and I discover no affairs and he doesn't leave, that will be a good Fourth of July. Two years running, it's been a bad time. I just didn't think it would hit me this hard. I feel like a loon for letting it get to me, but I know how to deal with triggers and will get through.

Oh, Frog, as to the question about counseling, we are not in MC now, but will be discussing our recovery plan, which may include traditional counseling, may not. We have been doing okay, but both recognize the need to set up a new plan, hence the question/answer sessions I want to set up. I asked if we could talk about some specific questions tonight. I will not be broaching anything about the A's, as I'm finding that THEY are not the real problem; the behavior is.

I'm finding more and more that I don't really want to know much about these women. They don't mean much to me. I don't care what they look like, smell like, or act like. I only care what needs PWC has that I have not been filling that they did fill. That's really all I need to know. I think this question alone would give PWC much to think on, and much to discover about what he did get out of the A's.