Hi again,

In a “soul mate” type of affair, how long do Waywards generally carry a torch for the Other Person? Do the feelings ever completely fade, especially when they believed that it was love? I know my D-Day was fairly recent, but this eats away at me to the point that I want to just walk away. I don’t know how much longer I can bear this. Is there light at the end of the tunnel or is this just a very bitter pill that I have to swallow in order to salvage my marriage?

If you had read "His Needs, Her Needs" you wouldn't ask that question.

A HINT at the correct answer is that NC only makes sense if the answer to your question is an emphatic YES.

Sorry.

one, I believe it is very much like alcohol for an alcoholic. I have not drank in 22 years. When I think of drinking, I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion. To me, that would be like asking to be admitted back into the worst sort of he11 on earth you can imagine. It would mean a world of humiliation, self degradation, terror, and sadness. No sane person could ever volunteer for that, right?


I know without a doubt, that if I had another drink, I could be seduced into forgetting all that pain and terror. One drink, one taste, is all it would take. This is why I never drink and don't hang out in bar environments. All it would take is for the inevitable weak moment to collide with opportunity and I would be off an running again.

I believe it is the exact same for many WS. My H doesn't believe he was ever addicted to his OW, but he does have the same visceral reaction of disgust when the OW is mentioned. But, I have no doubt he could be seduced all over again.

Dr. Harley understands this dynamic about affairs, which is why he is "adamant" that all contact end. I throw my hands up and walk away from situations where the BS does not heed this warning, because I know it will be hopeless. But, there really is great hope when contact does end for life.

p.s. a soulmate type affair is a TEENAGER affair. That is not a grown up thing.

1000W,

I bumped some threads on exposure a couple months ago but you seemed to disappear. I think, like Big K, you should find your answers on this site and in HNHN.

All affairs will need intact NC and most need exposure to OPS to achieve closure. (It's a rare exception when exposure won't/can't happen.) It seems it would help us help you if you didn't employ the 'hit and miss' approach....."HIT the MB boards with a question and then seemingly MISS the advice by not posting for several days, weeks or months."

You may have answered one of your own questions with your last post:



My H was in withdrawal for nearly 5 months after D Day #1 but I didn't know it, nor did I know about MB so I could not employ the advice you've been given since January/February. That's why I had 3 more D days and also why you might be asking your question about OW's place in WH's heart.

I don't want to offend you, but in helping you it seems you need to follow through with advice given and also by asking two questions:

* Has NC letter been written and sent? Have you got spying tools in place to ensure it's intact?

* Have you found and exposed to OPS?

Your WH will have feelings towards OW until he completes withdrawal. While you cannot control him, you can create ways to know for sure what he is doing/thinking so you can make decisions for yourself that you can control.

For me, it was music to my ears when my WH blurted out (without my asking) that OW was repulsive to him, that she was a worst liar than him -- at least he admitted his errors whereas she never has as far as we know-- and he thinks she most likely has another guy she's cheating with.

I'll help you as much as I can 1000W but it would be easier if you stick around and share how things are going more often than every few weeks or months. Not a condemnation, just a suggestion.

Ace

(edited to add specific details of last post 3 weeks ago and to note that although we were posting simultaneously, Mel and I used similar words "repulsive/revulsion" to describe how WH needs to think for you to start recovery)

Thanks everyone

Ace,

I don’t mean to disappear; most days things are okay but every now and then there is an issue that I get stuck with and I trawl the MB boards for answers and usually find things that answer my questions well enough. Today is just a particularly hard day. Yesterday was OW’s final day at work. I am 99.9% certain that NC has been in place since DDay. WH has worked from home since then. Withdrawal symptoms are evident and there has been a very tangible shift in our relationship since all WH’s cagey behaviour has stopped – now that there is nothing to hide anymore. I have full access to his phone, laptop, he has freely and of his own accord shown me emails that he has been copied on from OW.

The reason for my emotional day today is that we had another conversation about NC and closure, and WH reminded me that every day he still has to make the choice to stay in NC and that he is often really tempted to contact her for closure but doesn’t because he knows it would mean losing me and that’s not an option for him. But regardless of the pain and damage, he still feels sad at losing someone he was so close to. I know this intellectually anyway, but geez it hurts to hear it out loud. This was the last week where he could easily contact her and he didn’t and it was clearly painful for him (which just makes me want to puke!)

We followed all the advice, NC letter and exposure and I think we’re just struggling along through the usual recovery issues. Because their relationship didn’t die a natural death I just worry that every time we hit a rocky patch (and I’m sure we have a lot of those ahead!) he’s going to wish he was with her instead and then if things are bad enough…act on it.
Renewing contact now would be difficult – her new job is 2 hours away and she lives an hour away too. He has no way of contacting her now but they have mutual friends through work so if he really wanted to he could get her new number and email address.

I would so dearly love to hear the words repulsion/revulsion in the same sentence as OW but I don’t really think they ever got to see each other’s flaws so I’m not holding my breath that that will ever happen. But I sure do wish it would.

Ah, it WILL happen over time you can bet...He will see just how shameful HIS acts were and thoughts of her will only serve to remind him of that shame and therefore will make her repulsive to him-whether he saw her flaws or not-he will come to understand the fantasy nature of an affair and just how silly and unrealistic it is...That being said, what you REALLY want/need your husband to get is that NC is IMPERATIVE and WHY...You want HIM to RECOGNIZE his own weakness to OW and to be VIGILANT about it...He must truly understand why NC is the ONLY option...He must genuinely get that he can NEVER "test the waters" just to see how strong he is...That's a NO GO...

Dr. Harley explains that there will forever be a low burning flame for the OP that can reignite at any time if there is contact...Now, that does NOT mean that the FWS is forever pining for the OP, and I tell you this as a FWW...It just means that if once there was "chemistry", there likely would be "chemistry" always-it's quite logical actually...It really isn't unlike any of your ex boyfriends...You should not have contact with them either, because there was once a connection between you-one that very well could (actually likely would in the right environment), whether you recognize it or not, cause you to connect emotionally again...You want your FWH, to understand the power that addiction has over him towards the OW...When that happens, you are where you want to be...

Mrs. W

1KW,

If you haven't already got it, pick up a copy of HN/HN or better still, the newer book, Fall In Love/Stay In Love. It includes all of HN/HN and additional things not in the previous books.

As difficult as it may seem, the real key to rebuilding your R is time, but most importantly, time well spent. Total healing will come if you BOTH are working from the same manual.

That said, I agree with Ace (first time for everything <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />) that the possibility of an A rekindling is almost always present and that is why the strong recommendation of NC for life.

Mark

But there is a flaw, a huge one. She crawled into the sewer with a married man. When he recovers, this recognition will come to him. If he recovers he will grow to feel REVULSION at himself for his sleazy behavior. And this will extend to the OW. That is a sign of RECOVERY.

Stated perfectly by Mrs. W. And her words are coming from a FWS who really is recovered. This is what recovery looks like.

I can only speak for myself, but this is one area I don't agree with Dr Harley. I had a "soul mate" very emotionally attached A and I no longer carry anything for my FOM.

Maybe it's different for male WS's, but for me it is not the case at all.

It took a good 2 years before all the "feelings" were gone. I went through good, to bad and now I have reached indifference.

There was a thread on here not all that long ago about this subject. I'm a bit rushed now, but will try to find it and point you to it in a bit.

Thanks for that little bit of encouragement everyone. It helps more than you know.

For the most part I feel really positive and I am able to focus instead on the fact that our family is healthy and mostly happy and that we have so much to be grateful for. Nobody got maimed, OW didn't fall pregnant, nobody contracted a disease. Some days I am even able to see how much good could come from this - I can see the potential for personal and marital growth that might not otherwise have occurred.
Just some days the doubts and hurt infect my heart and cloud my vision.

The others are right in what they said here. I am about a year out from D-Day and I can say in my case that things finally took this turn.

In the early stages after D-Day he would defend the OW and talk about how the OW was misunderstood and lonely (trying to make me feel sorry for her I guess...) If I called her names or made any snide (but apt) comments about her morals, I was the bad person or the "b*tchy" wife.

I think things began to change when he wrote the NC letter. For the first time he sat and focused and got some clarity. In his NC letter he bluntly stated that yes he was wrong to betray me, but he was just as disappointed in her for not stopping the affair too. That she failed him as a friend by not being strong when he wasn't.

Now HE is the one who has lost all respect for her, to the point of disgust and revulsion as MelodyLane said. In fact he will no longer even use her name, he just refers to her as "that person" or other impersonal things. Amazing - we have gone from "the poor misunderstood OW" to "that tramp whose name I never want to speak/hear again" - music to the BS's ears indeed.

Note: My mistake in the early days was constantly assaulting her character, which aroused his chivalrous side and only led him to defend her. When I backed off and let him think and come to his own conclusions, the fog eventually lifted.

It is only natural for someone to defend a loved one, and if the WS thinks/believes they love the OP, you will get nowhere with insults and character assassination of the OP...and believe me, I think I probably know 200 synonyms for wh*re now, I used every one of them in those early confrontations...nothing worked except letting him come around and open his eyes to what she was/is...and now he despises her.

lifeschoice...I too have feelings of indifference towards OM, but I will FOREVER defer to the professional when it comes to NO CONTACT...I will NEVER be careless or pompous and try and test my strength, to do so would be very ignorant, not to mention heartless towards Mr. W...

For me, Dr. Harley's theory makes TONS of sense because I saw it demonstrated in my very own life...My own affair was with an Ex Boyfriend...It is very easy for me to see how that low burning flame was reignited when we had CONTACT...It's not just because of an affair that this flame can burn...it burns for ANYONE that you once shared an emotional connection with whether you were married or single...

Look up KiwiJ's threads from last April, and you will see where not believing Dr. Harley on this will get you...Kiwi's situation really smacked me upside the head and good-actually I never thanked her for that...Up until that point, Mr. W and I had planned on going to my 20th class reunion which is being held this August-OM is likely to be in attendance...When I watched "Kiwigate" unfold here, I changed my mind, we will NOT be attending this reunion or any others over the years...Kind of a bummer, I would like to have seen my old girlfriends...A consequence of my own poor choices...But really a small price to pay to keep my wonderful family intact...

Btw, I at one time shared your POV on this...I argued it and argued it right here on MB...I was so very strong, felt nothing for the OP, he makes me sick...yada, yada, yada...Actually that is/was all TRUE, but can only remain true so long as NO CONTACT is in place...ACCEPTING my own weakness and in this arena and becoming humble about it was what it took for me to get it...make sense?

Mrs. W

Onethousand,

I found the thread and see that you initially asked the question.

Are you looking for input from more people besides those who answered you?

This title is this and it's GCII

WH STILL WANTS CLOSURE WITH OW AFTER NC LETTER. ANY PEARLS OF WISDOM?

MrsW,

I agree with just about all of what Dr H has to say. I also know incredibly helpful it would have been to have found MB when we were fresh around D-day. I can see how the MB priniples work and work very well, this is just one thing for me that does not fit. I'm not knocking his principle it's just not the case for me.

I know this because I worked, very closely, with my FOM for over 2 years after I ended the A. He and his W also lived around the corner from us. Maybe it's different because our A burned out and I ended it before we were caught or slept together for that matter. I was 110% commited to making my marriage work and kept everything work related for the remainder of the time we worked together. It didn't happen often, but if FOM said something inappropriate I walked away from him. I had no interest or desire to go there again.

Neither of our spouses knew about the A until I confessed it to my H long after it was over. My H then confronted FOM telling him he knew everything. FOM was very mad and told me by telling my H I "forced" him to tell his W. My H exposed it to FOM's W in the event he didn't actually tell her. It was after the confrontation that FOM took steps to leave our employer, It was another 8 months before he actually left. He cut all ties when my H started working for the same organization I work for.

If I ran into him on the street today, I honestly would be surprised if I would feel anything for him. I didn't feel anything for him when we worked together and I didn't care one bit when he left the area. Of course like you, I would never want to test that. NC works wonders and I like the way things are now.

Edited to add:

I think it's wise you chose no to go to the reunion. I agree and would never intentionally put myself any place that FOM might be.

I'm a BS.

When I saw the title to this thread I opened it immediately because it is something that haunts me, as well, even though recovery is going well.

Trying to put my finger on what you all are saying, but it feels like mixed messages. On the one hand, thought of OP bring repulsion, revulsion, and shame. On the other hand, if you had any sort of contact, even accidental, than this "low burning flame" could ignite all over again? It seems contradictory to me. Why, if something is so harmful, would would go back to it? Why is something SO awful to SO many people, remain tempting? And if you ARE still tempted, then are you still not harboring some feeling, on some level?

This just haunts the bejeebees out of me, and admittedly so, probably because of other issues we have faced other than the actual A.


Silverwraith was talking about how she used snide remarks when talking about the OP, and her spouse' "chivalrous" side would come out. I too, use snide remarks. Who can help it? I did this the other night when we were out. FWH got this querky look on his face and asked me not to mention her anymore. We'd just come out of counselingand were revisiting some issues, events that took place during the A. Well it's difficult to have such a talk and NOT mention her, right? He said she was dead to him, and that the mention of her brought up a lot of shame. But I couldn't help wondering, in the back of my brain, if it wasn't really some "chivalrous" act. That he was somehow offended because I used some not very nice references toward her.

As I said, this one really haunts me. I sure wish it wouldn't ...

rltraveled,

I know how you feel about being haunted. In our case we have other issues too beyond the A, but it's all too easy to focus on the OP and attack them because they are a real and solid concept, unlike "issues."

I have my own theory, and it goes as follows: When you attack the OP's character, you are actually attacking your WS. After all, the OP was someone THEY chose, so you are in essence pointing out the flaws in their decision-making when you focus on the OP's less-than-stellar qualities. The OP isn't physically present (usually) to denigrate or insult, so the BS who is wallowing in pain takes out their rage on the substitute target - their WS or FWS.

This seems to backfire, at least in my experience. A truly repentant FWS is already ashamed of their actions and probably their choice of partner(s), so every time you attack the OP you get their hackles up, they get defensive, then it seems to you they are defending the OP, you get angrier, and everything spirals out of control again, leaving everyone more hurt and angrier than when it started.

The hardest lesson for me to learn was to BITE MY TONGUE when those great opportunities came up for devastating one-liners about the OW's morals or character. Instead, I let my FWH come to his own realization about her and as I mentioned, it seemed to come when he wrote the NC letter.

Every situation is different, hence there is never "one size fits all" advice. But I would suggest that if making nasty remarks about the OP only leads into the vicious cycle of further hurts and retaliation between spouses, then perhaps it is not a healthy tactic to take.

So, where do you take the anger and rightful rage against the OP? Here to this forum, or vent it constructively in other ways. I took an unconventional approach to this problem myself and perhaps it's worth starting a new thread about ways to satisfy the hunger for revenge/justice and the need to vent, but balanced with a healthy dose of safety and sanity.

SW, I agree that they probably feel in some way that they are the ones being attacked. After all, they "chose" this person to be with.

I would hope, however, that who they were then is not who they are now. If that's the case, they shouldn't feel that they have to somehow protect someone who willingly participated in trying to destroy their life.

So funny for me to think that our FWS's thought the OP's actually "cared" about them and their well being, and their children. If they did care, they would not have participated in an A. Did they really think, for instance, that each other's children were going to welcome the OP with open arms? Perhaps they thought it would all happen with time, kids are resiliant and all that malarky.

I'm a product of divorce, I would have been the first to tell them that it just doesn't work that way. I'm 46. I was 12 when my father took off with his OW. And to this day, I still hold some resentment toward him, not to mention the lifelong issues I've had to deal with.

But I guess I'm getting off track here ...

You expressed my thoughts about this exactly, Mrs. W.

Does OM hold a special place in my heart...eewwwwww, no. I get nauseous -- literally sick to my stomach -- whenever I am reminded of him.

And it didn't take me very long...several months, maybe...to get to that point.

Lori

Lifeschoice,

I guess FWH and I are still stuck at the NC issues. We have definitely agreed that there will be NC. FWH struggles because although he understands the importance of NC, he still has a very strong desire for closure and has to actively choose not to give in to the urge to contact her to say his final goodbyes on a daily basis.
My issue with closure is that it reminds me that his heart has been, and to a large extent still is, with someone else, and it really upsets me that this might be true for the rest of our time together.
I guess I’m looking for reassurance that I’m not going to spend the rest of my marriage in the shadow of a fantasy. That at some point he might see some flaws in her and as a result his feelings for her will finally rot and die!

"I guess I’m looking for reassurance that I’m not going to spend the rest of my marriage in the shadow of a fantasy. That at some point he might see some flaws in her and as a result his feelings for her will finally rot and die!"

It could go either way, you know.

Some of us are still dealing with FWW feelings for OM to one degree or another years later.

I remember a post by a BW maybe two years ago. Her FWH had ended the affair four (4) years earlier and everything was going MB style great for them. They did it by the book - NC, RH, ENs and all.

Then he ran into OW totally unexpectedly in a gym. They had coffee together.

He left his family for OW just a couple of months later.

Just one example of why Dr H says even moving far away to protect your M is not too extreme .

Just remember, there is no such thing as closure. That’s total unmitigated hogwash. He mans up or he waffles. His choice, like everything else in life.

And not manning up, not doing whatever it takes for as long as it takes, is his explicit choice too.

ed: Tell him I said so.


With prayers,

otw,I read somewhere on here that a "closure meeting" simply means that they want to keep contact.

Don't buy it.

He already "closed" it when he agreed to no contact.

Sorry. I just remember going through this myself. FWH agreed to no contact, then 3 weeks later, wanted this kind of "closure" talk with her. He was, in fact, still very foggy.

You've hit the nail on the head...what word occurs most often in that paragraph you wrote...THINK/THOUGHT.

As my FWH explained it: "I just wasn't thinking." He said his dad had always stress the motto "THINK before you do anything stupid that you'll regret" and the time he chose to ignore that wisdom is when the seeds of the A were planted.

When the hormones and emotional rush overcome a WS, I believe to some extent their brains do shut down. This is not giving them a pass in any way - I'm just trying to look at things dispassionately and logically for once. They aren't envisioning their spouse in pain or the kids crying the first time they hop into bed with the OP. Otherwise the vast majority couldn't follow through. I believe most turn OFF their thinking caps and conscience, consciously or not, otherwise they couldn't proceed. This is just another of my unique perspectives/theories.

Having an affair is the ultimate act of thoughtlessness and selfishness, and when you boil it down, in many ways it just smacks of brutally simple stupidity to me.

"Having an affair is the ultimate act of thoughtlessness and selfishness, and when you boil it down, in many ways it just smacks of brutally simple stupidity to me."

IMO, most every WS always had that mean, selfish, thoughtless streak inside. Even before the adultery.

It shows all over this forum.

It shows irl.

It was the same M, and the BS has the same if not more complaints, and the same opportunities. But who did it?

As an example, OM started the LTA with my FWW on his one yo daughter's first birthday. Instead of staying home with his family, that's the day they first climbed in bed together. This is not, "He wasn't thinking." This is who he is.

It is who they all are.

I spent some time reading today and came across this page which was very long but very useful, just in case anyone else is stuck in a similar place...

Romantic Affairs Revisited

For what it's worth, the only place the OP in my case holds in MY heart is scar tissue. Of course, that will always be there, but not in a good way.

Hang in there!

Aphelion,
I am sad you feel that way- the Formerly Wayward Spouses I know were not mean, selfish, thoughtless, etc. . . before or after the affairs. That would be saying that it is a character issue.

As for not every having contact - I firmly believe that is the only way. My H had not seen his former GF (who became ow) in more than 25 years. She had broken up with him, broken their engagement and broken his heart. All those years later she started contacting him- depsite all the misery she put him through, they started 'talking' again.

He knows there can never be any type of contact again.

He is repulsed by himself and her and their actions and what it did to me and our marriage.

It just takes time.

Onethousand,

Has your H done any therapy to work on his issues and find out what he is missing in himself that left him vulnerable for an A?

If not, IMO he should. Therapy can help him see the distorted thinking that goes with having an A and why he "needed" validation from someone else. It will also show him he doesn't need closure and why.

Neither of us has been for any counselling. We are both very introspective though and have often stayed up until 3am talking about that particular issue. During the false recovery we also did the Dr Phil Relationship Rescue workbook which was very insightful.
Essentially there are two parts to what made him vulnerable; one is that he didn’t have a clear vision in his head about what the role of a husband is/should be. The other is that he felt that for various reasons he had lost his way. Added to all of this we were new parents with no family support nearby and hadn’t worked out how to parent together.

From Alphean:

"I remember a post by a BW maybe two years ago. Her FWH had ended the affair four (4) years earlier and everything was going MB style great for them. They did it by the book - NC, RH, ENs and all.

Then he ran into OW totally unexpectedly in a gym. They had coffee together.

He left his family for OW just a couple of months later."


It's stories like these that scare the Holy He77 out of me.

As BS's who try and make it work, despite everything, we sure are in a very vulnerable position.

Of course it is a character issue!

To one degree or another it is always a character issue.

If it is not a character issue, you and I would have an A or two by now.

There is always opportunity. There is always someone out there who will meet some of your needs.

There is always a wish for more or less of something, ENs or LBs - something.

And there is always at the root of every affair, character.

Character is what you do when you think no one is watching.

With prayers,

I agree with Aphelion. Someone said here a while ago that it's not a character issue because, as Harley says, we are all capable of affairs.

but I do think that, while that may be true, it is character that stops us.

This is something I have been mulling over time and time again.

First off, right afetr counseling one day after d day 1 we went to a park to talk and and kb was acting really weird and distant, then we drove awhile and she freaked out when I told her that I wanted to tell the OMs W about what I thought had been an EA. None of that made any freaking sense until the second d day when most of the truth came out. then it hit me like a brick, she didnt want me to talk to the OMs W because she was still smack dab in the middle of the A and that would have ruined it for them and she would have had to choose between her soulmate and me.

So, 3 d days later and she talks very like she cant stand the guy. what changed? My biggest concern of the future is that she will accidently run into him again, this could be years down the road which she may think time would defuse her feeling but I totally disagree. Once again, one thing will lead to another then the next thing ya know, A number 2.

Its really sad how A's cause so many problems FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES. I dont get it so much that I really wonder if certain people just dont have it in them to have an A even if the conditions were just right.

2LLP

Unless he works those issues out with a professional he will be vulnerable again if the opportunity presents. JMO anyway.

It's not just knowing what caused it, it's also about getting to the core and figuring out how how to deal in a much more healthy manner.

Initially, I was against therapy for myself. Now I feel it is the greatest gift I have ever given to myself and it has helped me in all aspects of my life.

“It's stories like these that scare the Holy He77 out of me.

As BS's who try and make it work, despite everything, we sure are in a very vulnerable position.”

I understand your fear. I have felt it too.

But there is a way out.

Often overlooked around here is the self-improvement, the self-protection aspects of recovery.

You are not just recovering your marriage. You are recovering yourself. Or, in some cases making yourself. (In my case I don’t think I existed as an individual until I started doing this work.)

You should have as a goal that you become differentiated. You become strong, joyous and are married by choice, not by need. Lovingly detached.

Then when it happens again, (err, if it happens again) you will be so strong it will be a mere speed bump in the road of life.

Get to the place where if it happens again you know in your soul legal separation or divorce is preferable. Then you will feel safe.

This is not easy, but it works.


With prayers,

Agree with LC.

I truly believe good individual counseling is what started my FWH in thinking differently, and ultimately put us on a path to recovery.

MC is now doing the same as we both get to examine who we are, we're we've been, and what brought us here. We're learning how to break old patterns, how to establish true intimacy, and how to have a real marriage.

I so wish we'd have done this YEARS ago.

LC,

I've been reading this all day at work with no time to reply. I've been waiting for someone to get to exactly the issue you just raised.

All,

The problem that needs to be dealt with isn't only the OP and any residual feelings the FWS has left for them. The real problem that needs to be solved is establishing of boundaries by the FWS that allows different choices in the future, whether they run into OP or a new OP pops up out of nowhere.

It is easy to sit here today and say "I would never do that again..." and mean it, under today's circumstances. But what happens if 5 or 10 years down the road circumstances change? What if the marriage isn't as good as it should be? What if a "crisis" comes up that the FWS has never been able to come to grips with in the past, such as the death of a family member or the job they had for 20 years is suddenly gone?

What keeps the FWS from losing their way again?


As for feelings left for the OP; If Dr H is right and his concepts of the LB$ and ENs being how you make deposits is correct and if there is a "romantic threshold" in the LB$ that causes us to begin loving someone else, then the FWS DID love the OP and had fallen out of love with BS. They didn't just "feel" like it happened, it really happened, just like it did when BS and FWS were dating before they got married.

The question then becomes, "What will I do to avoid falling in love with anyone else in the future?" It can be avoided; love isn't magic. It isn't something that happens to us, it is something we choose to do. As such, we can chose to not do it, but recognize the situation that could lead to it and avoid it...as in RUN LIKE H377!

In answer to the question originally asked, let me ask this; does anyone remember their "first love" fondly? Do you have good memories of the person you dated years ago? Do you even sometimes "miss" an old flame from long ago?

In the original question I think is a different question; "How much longer will WS continue to hurt me by defending OP and talking fondly about OP?"

Mark

Unlike you, Mark, I have time on my hands to post but nothing to say because everything has already been said.

Surprise, surprise......come to think of it, was it on this thread that you insulted me by saying it's unusual that you agreed with me for once? (I'll laugh with you, my friend since you're giving me fishing lessons...otherwise I would take my marbles and go home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

So if I don't say anything, you don't have any reason to disagree, right?


OOOOps...I lied <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />....I do have something to say/ask.

How's it going onethousandwords?

Which abbreviation to you prefer? 1KW? 100W? 1THSND? other?

Ace

Hi Ace,

Thanks for asking!
Today was a good day again. The replies I got to my question give me different perspectives which are so valuable. FWH reads the replies too and it gives us plenty food for thought and discussion.

We have a pretty happy family life, even during the affair and just after DDay and now still, most days are good and on the weekends we always do fun family stuff together. During the affair, even though the “surface” of our life was still calm and enjoyable, there was a subtle, underlying, barely noticeable hostility/uneasiness. Now that I actually know what was going on and everything is out in the open and there are no more secrets to keep, the atmosphere is a gazillion times better; like this enormous, invisible weight has been lifted. So even though I’m utterly devastated and heartbroken to have found out the truth, it’s way better than it felt before – feeling like something was wrong, but not knowing if I was going crazy or just being negative or something.

My FWH is making a huge effort to rebuild our marriage. It’s not like he was always an [censored] and this is just another thing to add to the laundry list. I really do feel that he’s a good person who messed up, albeit monumentally. The fact that he is making an effort and is totally honest about what goes on in his head does make it so much easier to forgive him and to consider a future with him.

All that said, there is a lot of pain. And because of the broken trust during the 2 year false recovery, there is a part of me that is sceptical about this recovery business – like I don’t want to get too comfortable just in case this isn’t real. Probably just part of the fun of recovery!

I also just want to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. I'm sure that a lot of you must feel like you are constantly repeating yourselves over and over, but you all change people's futures in such a positive way. This forum has certainly been responsible for a lot of personal growth in me and will be a big part of what saves my family. So thanks!

Glad to hear your good report, 1KW (default to shortest) and it's a good sign that your WH is willing to read posts. Mine will, too but I don't want him to feel pressured to post his side of our recovery until he's ready. Time will tell when that will happen.

I'm confusing thread sitches and yours does not mention if you've exposed to OPS. That really helped me start to rebuild my trust. If you haven't, consider it. If you have, you're still going to have to be very vigilent for many weeks, months and maybe years, hopefully not.

So glad you came back and asked specific questions and followed through. I wondered for many weeks about you and prayed for you, too. Gave me goose bumps to see your WH seems to have earned the "F" for 'former' as in "former wayward husband". When did he earn that?

Ace

1000W ~



Mel's words here hit the nail right on the head ~ "soulmate" love is a very superficial, surface-y type of love ~ it is not the love of long-lasting relationships. It relies on the feelings of infatuation for the relationship to continue, and is based only on the "feelings" of love (which is really just infatuation / ego-stroking), rather than also taking into consideration that love must also be a decision, since we all know that feelings come and go.

I believe that it is a sign of immaturity, as well as a justification for the affair ~ "well, we're soulmates you know, we couldn't help it that we found each other after one (or both) of us were married!" (yeah ~I know, gagpukebarfvomit).

But it is the immaturity that LEADS to the justification, in claiming "soulmate" love, IMHO.

~MF

Hmmm, funny, adding the F to WH wasn't conscious. Hadn't noticed til you pointed it out! Maybe that's a good sign subconsiously? In my heart of hearts, I believe that FWH won't contact OW again. He’d have to make a really big effort to contact her (it would have to be a very conscious decision). And I think he'd have to be a special breed of [censored] to do that, and that I truly don't have a clue about who he is or what his values are.
But don't misunderstand me; I am no longer naive enough after a false recovery to think that I can sit back and relax now. I have also read enough horror stories on MB to know that relapse is very common. Hence the constant knot in my stomach.
My hope is to be vigilant but at the same time to learn to trust again so that our marriage can move forward leaving this awful nightmare behind us.

Just be careful not to drop your guard. Check out my recent post to Brokenincali regarding withdrawal. It sucks.

IMHO, "F" must be earned when WH demonstrates enough recovery signals that you can start to rebuild trust. It took several weeks for mine to earn it....even after we exposed late to OPS. He earned it when his withdrawal fog lifted and he began saying he 'would do anything to help me heal'.

Ace

Mr. Onethousandwords...

Glad to hear that you are reading here...Hope you will feel comfortable enough to post soon...You would be very welcomed by this community...

Mrs. W

1KW,

Hope you're able to keep up the progress you're making. I'm learning right along with you and grateful for the opportunity.

Thanks,
Ace

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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

?

Big K.....

I got 2x4ed because Mrs. W. cares enough to help this newbie learn stuff that will be more helpful.

End of educational and questionable threadjack! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

*******

How are you guys doing, Mr. and Mrs. 1000words?

Ace

May I just add my unequivocal "NO" to the original question.

No you may not Jen.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL, I reread my post to make sure the correct message had got across. I think it has. *confused*

It's the truth BigK. Thank God it's the truth.

I hope this isn't a t/j but in the last 6 months I have come a very, very, very, very long way. And it's all good!

Jenny,

You will never be in a place where OM is not a threat to your marriage. I do understand you feel like that now but you probably also felt like that before Kiwigate last year.

I am not saying that to be mean.

It IS what Willard Harley himself says unambiguously in "His Needs, Her Needs". It isn't nice and it certainly isn't what a BS wants to here, much less a FWS wants to acknowledge.

But it is an incontrovertible fact that the OP will forever be a threat to your marriage. The sooner you recognise this unpleasant fact, the sooner I would start feeling safe if I was Rob.

Stop trying to convince yourself of your immunity, recognise the facts and you will react appropriately when OM comes calling again.

BigK, the point is I UNDERSTAND that now.

I know it's NC for life. But I'm also in a different place. I'm happy and strong but I'm certainly not convincing myself I'm immune.

You know how you said that your W would run a mile if she saw the OM. I'm IN that place now.

I am a WW and the OM will always be on my mind. I do not
mean I will do something about it, but as said "the feelings and chemistry just don't go away". There are triggers that may stir up unwanted thoughts or feelings, but I do the best I can to avoid "fantasy thoughts". After all that is what an Affair is...an addictive fantasy. My affair was very emotional, lots of feelings involved. It is not easy to dismiss those feelings.I can't speak for the OM, because there is NC but I think EA are alot harder to forget abt. You just learn to move forward and do whats right.

THAT IS THE FEAR THAT CONSUMES ME..!!!!!!!!
EVERY DAY, SINCE DDAY! I FEEL SO HELPLESS AND SOMETIMES, BESIDES DEPRESSED...I FEEL SO INSECURE!!

How ya doing onethousandwords and Mr. 1KW?

Time for an update if you can.

Ace

EDITED to add:

PS It's now Friday morning, 1KW, and I just read your post. Do NOT apologize for venting....that's how we can help and how you can help yourself. I posted a request for vets and pros to help, but I wanted to leave this message here instead of starting a new post. Keep venting, even if it takes awhile for someone to answer.

Hi Ace,

Not great. Maybe even worse than that at any point so far. I read these threads and when someone talks about having to follow their spouse or have them followed by a PI once they're in recovery, I always think to myself, “why put yourself through this, what are you doing? If you your spouse is so untrustworthy that you deem it necessary to have them spied on, LEAVE!!! Stop wasting your time on someone you can’t trust!”

Since DDay FWH agreed to stop going out to lunch with people from work on Fridays. OW resigned and left a few weeks ago, so FWH wanted to know if I felt okay with him going to lunch again. I said, fine, as long as it’s only men, and that none of the men are from their group of mutual friends. I said this for two reasons: 1) I don’t want OW being talked about and FWH finding out where she works/if she’s getting divorced etc. 2) I don’t want him hanging around with people who turned a blind eye while my husband was cheating on his pregnant wife. The two guys I specifically mentioned are also not great influences; they're often pressuring him to stay out late and drink too much, neither of them have settled down, just really not the sort of people we need around right now.
I said, that’s what I think, that’s what I would have a problem with, the rest is up to you. So of course he goes out to lunch with them. Nice. He explains that he doesn’t want to offend them. I feel like he would rather risk offending me that offending anyone else. Anyway, I tell him that that erodes my LB. He apologises and says he’ll try avoid it in the future. I let it go. We have a nice weekend.

Last night he had a work dinner. During the day, I tell him I’m feeling nervous about this whole thing to the point of actually being nauseous. He could be going to see her; I would be none the wiser. I joke and say he should watch out for the PI following him. I realise I really don’t trust him. I really no longer know what he is and isn’t capable of. This makes me really sad because he used to be such an inspiration in terms of his goodness and honesty. He was leagues ahead of anyone I had ever met. So virtuous. This reminds me of my statement above regarding lack of trust. He forwards the emails proving it’s a work do and who’s going. Offers to take photos with his phone to reassure me it’s all above board.

Anyway, I wake up at 1:40am from a dream about him apologising to me while picking up the phone to re-establish contact with OW. I feel sick. I’m half asleep, I realise I’m alone in bed. For a moment I wonder if we did get divorced in the end, and then I wake up properly and remember he’s just at the dinner. I check the time and now I’m cross. I phone him, he asks what the time is and says he had no idea it was so late. I want to slap him! Dinner was at 7, as if he doesn’t know the time! He is 20 minutes away by taxi, says he is leaving now but he finally gets home an hour and a half later at 3am. He says sorry, he feels a responsibility to spend time talking to the team of people he manages and goes to sleep. He works in IT in a corporate environment, what corporation expects their managers to team-build at 3am? As if! I have often felt jealous of the level of commitment he has to his job compared to me, and this just exemplifies it.

I think such behaviour after the recent revelation of a 2 year EA/PA, the blatant lies, the long period of shocking, deliberate dishonesty and deceit, shows that he just doesn’t value me, and frankly, I’m not even that upset anymore. I’m not surprised. I feel flat. I really thought he would do things to rebuild trust and to make me feel valued.

To go through the ****** that is the aftermath of an affair, only to be faced with the same **** as before, I am just not interested. Initially, after finding out about the affair, it didn’t affect how much I loved him, but I’ve been finding in the past few weeks, the little things that make me feel unvalued are just causing the love to pour out. I have been doing my damndest to work on my part of the pre-affair issues – showing care. I have been doing his ironing (if you knew me, you would now that this is a very big gesture!) I wake him up with coffee in the mornings, I buy and cook meat at dinner time (I’m a long time vegetarian, another very big deal). I’m trying really hard. And now this. The same issues, after he says he’s changed.

After explaining how uncomfortable I was with him going out, and trying to show trust by not phoning and checking up, I would have thought he’d show some sensitivity and make an effort to be home at a reasonable hour.

I feel very uncertain about our future.

If I’m rambling and paragraphs are haphazard, I apologise – typing with one hand with baby on my lap who is trying to type too!

If he was a complete [censored], it would be so much easier. He’s a great dad, he’s very helpful and involved with the kids. We have a really nice family life. He’s a good provider, except for the affair he’s always been a decent person. I’m just not sure that he will ever be prepared to meet my needs. I think that’s what it all boils down to. And I feel like after being forced to go through the nightmare of an affair, to settle for the same old **** as before, it’s just not worth it.

Thanks for the vent! I’m done whingeing!

I'll be praying for you today but I can't post from work. Don't give up, 1KW, and keep journaling your feelings even if you don't post them.

Ace

Your sitch is very similar to mine, except that my kids are much older. My husband is a corporate bigshot who also is a great dad and a great provider and a great husband - *when he's not at work.* But sadly he put Home in one box and Work in another and was determined to keep two completely separate lives. He convinced himself that whatever happened at work had NO effect on me whatsoever and was therefore a married man at home and a single guy at work.

Sound familiar? I take it you are crazy, controlling, jealous, paranoid, etc etc etc if you do not like this arrangement. Right?

You have to bust down this fantasy. Do whatever you can to make the worlds collide. That brings in a huge dose of reality to the fantasy he is living.

How does your husband feel about POJA, especially when it comes to his social life at work?
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

Yep, many things sound familiar. This one especially – what he does at work or in relation to work is none of my business/I’m not in his shoes so I don’t understand the corporate importance of socialising with colleagues/and anyway, since it doesn’t affect me it’s really none of my business. He hasn’t been for a while, but he is usually overseas, so as far as he’s concerned, his activities are even less of my business. He doesn’t like the idea of POJA because he feels that I “never compromise” and he always ends up having to give up everything and gets nothing in return.

Mulan,

How does one make the worlds collide?

Oh, I get told mostly that I'm ungrateful. Most men don't help out with the kids as much as he does, and his job provides us with a great lifestyle. I should just keep quiet and be grateful.

Look up at the top of this page. Click on "Articles". Then go to "Why Women Leave Men."

Your WH is trying to keep you in one room of the house, just as mine did. Read that article and you will know exactly what I mean.
Mulan

This was true for me as well. I couldn't bear the thought of living out the rest of my days/marriage with that niggling thought in the back of my mind... what if? So, I've settled it in my heart. IF it were to happen again, I would walk away. The end. After all this time in recovery, FWH knows it too. I'm not the same person I was before, I'm much better, stronger and wiser-- and our marriage is better for it.

My first instinct is "Danger Will Robinson" but you know him better than any of us do.

one - you have a long road in front of you. Your WH has a sweet, sweet arrangment going here what with being married at home and single at work, and it's going to take one h*ll of a lot to turn this around.

You've got to understand that "it hurts me" will mean NOTHING to him and will NEVER be reason enough for him to change.

Only when "it hurts HIM" will he change the way he is living.

What you really need is a good dark Plan B in a situation like this - dealing with a hardcore fence-sitting cake-eater, because that's what he is - but with your situation I'm betting you're not able to do that. The next best thing is the 180, which is what you do if you cannot or will not go to Plan B.

Just remember that he will continue to eat cake as long as you are serving it up.

Try having a very calm and frank discussion with him ONE TIME about this. Then, when that makes no difference - and it won't, but you've covered yourself - go to the 180:

*****************************************
THE 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow spouse around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what spouse will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show spouse someone they would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic

23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 5% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes

Hi Mulan,

I can see the merit in doing a 180 but the idea of it is very depressing to me! It seems like game playing. I just want a healthy, mature relationship with someone who wants the same thing. I’m willing to work on my stuff. Having to do a 180 or Plan B seems like wanting your marriage intact at all and any personal cost. It seems from the outside like fighting for someone that doesn’t even want you.

What did you do in your situation? Where are you at now? If it worked, how long did it take? My husband is also PA and even admits it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to email me. I really appreciate your input and can use as many different perspectives as possible. I hope you don’t think that I’m disregarding your advice, I’m not at all. I’m just discussing and trying to get more input and writing down the things that pop into my head.

1K1
It is not a game 1K1! Plan B to me not about the WW, It is about me and protecting me from further hurt and damage the WW can cause. It is about my recovery from the horror of it all, be it the M recovery or simply my own...

I will recover, I will be ok, with or without the WW.

Plan B is taking back and owning my power from the WW, it is about controling what I can control (Me) and accepting what treatment I will/will not accept...

It helps to have a strong Intermeadatory (tnx Dog for being strong when I am weak)

Like Dr Phil says the only person I can control is myself.

Jim

I totally agree with what Jim said. This is no game. This is a very serious effort to save a family and make a marriage strong.

Things got better for me when I finally understood what P/A behaviour is and starting dealing head-on with that. THEN the MB principles could work.

If you believe your WH is P/A, then please read the links in my sig line. The MB thread is long but worth every word. Then come back here and ask whatever questions you have.

Good luck -
Mulan