Marriage Builders
I have seen a lot of talk lately, amongst my Killer B's and folks who are in a longer term Plan B...wondering what is going on in AffairLand--curious what their WS and the OP is up to while they are in Plan B. Here, to answer your questions and soothe your enquiring minds, is what goes on in AffairLand while the BS is in Plan B.

Let's start with a little background to set the stage. WS and BS got married and have a couple kids. Like all young couples they thought their love would "conquer all" and never even considered that one of them would cheat. Sure that happens to other people, but their M was different and special and it would never happen to them. But BS put WS through college so they could get ahead in life, and BS always thought that his/her sacrifice would be paid back worth it "someday" when they were successful as a couple. Meanwhile, WS worked and worked to climb the corporate ladder, thinking that he/she was "providing for the family" and doing it to get ahead. BS began to be involved with the kids and their activities and forgot to take time for WS. In fact, when he/she did see WS, he/she complained because WS wasn't helping out. And WS also forgot to make time for BS and began working longer and longer hours at work. Sometimes they didn't even see each other awake for DAYS...and when they did, one or the other of them had negative things to say.

Right about then...enter stage left the OP. OP is a colleague at WS's office, and OP wears nice business outfits and nice cologne--whereas BS wears jeans and a t-shirt. OP knows all about WS's work...what he/she does...how he/she does it...what is hard about it...what is easy about it...what WS struggles with...and probably spends 8 hours a day with WS.--whereas BS is bored hearing about work, has no idea how hard it is, and spends hardly any time with WS. Pretty soon, WS starts talking to OP about a fight that he/she and BS had the night before...and OP is understanding and takes WS's side. Then WS starts going to OP with work conferences and kind of seeks out OP and sits by him/her at lunch. Soon, they are talking like school kids at lunch--phoning each other on the cell phone "for work"--and emailing all night long. And pretty soon after that, one of them mentions that they have feelings for the other ... and that's it. The decide they are "in love" and it becomes a PA. Shortly thereafter, the BS discovers the A (D-day) and finds MB. Everyone with me so far?

Okay, so after finding MB the BS does an appropriate Plan A and the WS goes headlong into the A and moves out to be with OP. The BS goes into Plan B. And THIS is where many of you find yourselves today...either you somewhat recently began Plan B or you have been in Plan B for a little while and your minds are wondering, "What good is this doing? What is my WS up to? Are they still with OP...still in the A? How exactly is this supposed to save my M?"

When a BS goes into Plan B, it is supposed to be after a fairly good, sustained Plan A. So for our story tonight, we will assume that each one of you did a good Plan A so that your WS could see that you realized you needed to make some changes, you MADE the changes, and they are permanent. Plan A shows the WS that the BS is capable of meeting the WS's ENs and capable of creating a love-environment. For me, Plan A was also a reinforcement of me...I became the best ME that I could become and got back to being the person who initially attracted WS and met his ENs!

So, when the WS refuses to end the A, and refuses to do NC with the OP...when the WS moves out of the marital home and (usually) moves in with the OP...the BS goes to Plan B. And while the BS goes through a withdrawal of their own--detaching from the WS and the drama of the A...disentangling their life from the WS's life--here's what is happening to the WS and the OP.

At this point, let's talk a little bit about the WS & OP's "Affair Fantasy." I call it the "Affair Fantasy" because we all know that destroying two marriages, damaging several children, tearing about two families and innumerable immediate relatives (in-laws) IS NOT a "love story." But that is what the WS and OP believe it is in their "Affair Fantasy." In the Affair Fantasy, the WS and OP think that they are star-crossed lovers whom Fate has joined together. Their LOVE can withstand any obstacle (like spouses) and they are SOULMATES. They complete each other, and without each other, their lives miserable--whereas WITH each other, their lives are nothing short of bliss. (Remember...this is their Affair Fantasy.) They fantasize that they are FINALLY understood and deeply loved for who they truly are. The fantasize that the OP can perfectly meet all their ENs without even being told what needs to be done. They fantasize that if they could only "be together" that everyone would be happy for them because they are in love and supposed to be together. They fantasize that their kids will not be harmed or be resentful--in fact, the kids will be happy to see their mommy or daddy finally happy. They fantasize that they can just remove their former spouse from their life and insert the OP...and that they will get to keep all their former money and use it for themselves. Finally, they fantasize that their decisions will have no real consequences to them--everyone will just be happy and accepted and "in love."

THAT is the WS's and OP's Affair Fantasy. Once the BS goes to Plan B, to the Affair partners AT FIRST they think that life is finally going their way! AT FIRST they might celebrate because now they don't have their pesky spouses on their backs reminding them of their guilt. AT FIRST they may act like life is AMAZING because now they can finally be together just like in their Affair Fantasy.

At about this point, the BS can make one of two choices.

CHOICE ONE:
If the BS stays really dark, communicates only through the intermediary, and allows the atty. and court to do the talking for them...here's what happens: The WS begins to wake up in the morning with the OP and guess what? He/she has bad breath in the morning and farts in bed. Hmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy...but (insert foggy excuse here). Then OP's kids are angry with OP and DO NOT LIKE WS AT ALL and are brats around him/her. They leave a mess and OP does not discipline them. They scream at WS "why did you break up my family?" and slam doors. Hmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy, but WS thinks, "Well MY kids are not like that!" Oops! WS hasn't even seen his/her kids in a few WEEKS and they start to feel guilty about that. So WS tries to call BS about seeing the kids, but BS won't be manipulated or guilted into it like they used to be. Hmmmm...now the WS can't see their own children whenever they want to! Hmmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy! Okay, well the WS finally stops calling the BS and writes to the intermediary like they are supposed to, and they arrange to have the kids. But the BS won't let the kids come over if OP is over, and the WS really, really misses the kids, so the WS asks the OP if they can stay away for one night so they can see their kids...AND OP GETS PI$$ED ABOUT IT! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT!!?? I thought OP understood everything about the WS! Now OP won't even do this one little thing so WS can see the kids. And after a big fight, and OP finally agrees to go stay at a friends' house...WS gets the kids and takes them to McD's and buys them a new video game...and the kids are MAD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What!! WS's kids are acting just like OP's kids! They're not happy!! Hmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy.

A few weeks or a month goes by, and WS has to go to court with the BS. WS and OP think "Yay, we will finally be legal! We will finally get the funds from the sale of the house and the judge will tell that stupid BS that we can't afford CS -and- alimony." The WS goes to court, and THE JUDGE tells WS, "You have a choice. Either you sell the house and give BS half the proceeds or you give the house to BS. But you're not getting it. And oh, btw, you are a parent and have an obligation to your children before your lover...so you WILL pay the BS for CS and since BS put you through college and now you can earn a lot more, you have to pay a small amount of alimony too."

The OP is FURIOUS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> How are they supposed to live?? I suppose this means WS will have to work even MORE hours at work, and can't take OP out to dinner or to the bars like they used to. Hmmmm...not exactly like the Affair Fantasy is it?? And OP begins to have projects with another co-worker at the office and stays later and later...and has lunch...and emails with the co-worker...and sure enough, finally one day the OP dumps the WS.

If the BS has been in a dark, silent Plan B...right about then the WS is realizing that the BS was right and that the grass was NOT greener on the other side. But the WS wonders if there is any way they could EVER, EVER work it out again, and has some pride and is afraid to find out. But the BS says, "If you're willing to go to IC and MC with the Harley's for six months, and really work on your issues...I will consider it." And the WS IS willing to do it because their addiction (the OP) went away and the WS withdrew from the fog and could see that they behaved like an idiot.

CHOICE TWO:
If the BS DOES NOT stay really dark, communicates via phone, TM and email, and fights the advice from the atty. and court...here's what happens: The WS begins to wake up in the morning with the OP and guess what? He/she has bad breath in the morning and farts in bed. Hmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy...but (insert foggy excuse here). So the WS speaks to BS about it on the phone, and the BS says not to tell him/her about sex with the OP and they end up in a fighting match, and WS thinks, "That's why I'm leaving BS! I can put up with bad breath and farts any day! I can't stand that screaming (insert name calling here)." Then OP's kids are angry with OP and DO NOT LIKE WS AT ALL and are brats around him/her. They leave a mess and OP does not discipline them. They scream at WS "why did you break up my family?" and slam doors. Hmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy, but WS thinks, "Well MY kids are not like that!" Oops! WS hasn't even seen his/her kids in a few WEEKS and they start to feel guilty about that. So WS calls BS about seeing the kids, but BS hangs up--is demanding and all self-righteous--and is judgmental and critical. Hmmmm...now the WS can't see their own children whenever they want to! Hmmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy! FINE--the WS decides to get his/her atty. to FORCE BS to let them see the kids and claims Parental Alienation. Finally the BS agrees to a night but won't let the kids come over if OP is over, and the WS really, really misses the kids, so the WS asks the OP if they can stay away for one night so they can see their kids...AND OP GETS PI$$ED ABOUT IT! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT!!?? I thought OP understood everything about the WS! Now OP won't even do this one little thing so WS can see the kids. And after a big fight, and OP finally agrees to go stay at a friends' house...WS gets the kids and takes them to McD's and buys them a new video game...and the kids are MAD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What!! WS's kids are acting just like OP's kids! They're not happy!! Hmmmm...not exactly the Affair Fantasy. But it must be because of BS's Parental Alienation, which the atty. will fix shortly.

A few weeks or a month goes by, and WS has to go to court with the BS. WS and OP think "Yay, we will finally be legal! We will finally get the funds from the sale of the house and the judge will tell that stupid BS that we can't afford CS -and- alimony." The WS goes to court, and THE JUDGE tells WS, "You have a choice. Either you sell the house and give BS half the proceeds or you give the house to BS. But you're not getting it. And oh, btw, you are a parent and have an obligation to your children before your lover...so you WILL pay the BS for CS and since BS put you through college and now you can earn a lot more, you have to pay a small amount of alimony too."

The OP is FURIOUS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> How are they supposed to live?? I suppose this means WS will have to work even MORE hours at work, and can't take OP out to dinner or to the bars like they used to. Hmmmm...not exactly like the Affair Fantasy is it?? So the WS calls the BS and pressures the BS to agree to a lessor amount of CS and they end up in another screaming match, calling each other names. The BS is all hurt by the continued abuse...the WS gets to control the situation again and through intimidation gets exactly what they want, and the OP is THRILLED that now they don't have to pay that much!

The OP and WS set up house and continue in their Love Shack. Since the BS has not been in a dark, silent Plan B...right about then the WS is blaming EVERY THING on the BS: the BS's anger, the BS's criticism, the BS's LoveBusters, and the BS's Parental Alienation. NONE of it is the WS's fault. The grass IS greener on the other side. But the WS has some pride and will never, ever consider going back, because that would require admitting that they participated in the demise of the M. The WS never does go to IC, never does learn or grow or change, and the WS and BS end up in D.


Killer B's this is a gigantic generalization...but this should give you some idea of that is going on in AffairLand while you are in Plan B. Now you know why we suggest/request that you stay in a nice, quiet, dark, silent Plan B. It is for your own good (so you can heal from the drama of the A), it is for your M's good (so any love for your WS can be saved), and it is for your WS's good (so that when the A dies it's natural death, they can swallow their pride and return IF THAT'S WHAT YOU--THE BS--WANT!!


Any questions???

Your faithful friend,


CJ
Terrific job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL... a great write-up FWCJ!
Whoa.....

Not *precisely* what I went through (an A was not the direct cause of my D), but OMG - it's all *so* accurate.

You are SO right on the money with this, it's scary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JinGA
Love it, love it, CJ! Thank you...for this and all of the support you are throwing the the Bees around here.

But here's my question....

In your example, and in the example in SAA, the OP dumps the WS. Not to be overly specific to my sitch, but I don't see that happening in a million years. OP Dd her H (who was an attorney) to be with WH, who is a cop. And they are NOT together 24/7...WH lives at ILs.

So can someone give a scenario in which the OP does NOT dump the WS? In which the WS must disentangle him/herself from the OP, who may be hanging on for dear life, because he/she has given up everything for the WS?

Did that make sense??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Sis, my WH is living with his OW (she is NOT/NEVER BEEN married---Again AIMLESS). I have to suspect that she will cling to him like glue, and SHOULD fear that he will leave her, because HE will. That's what Plan B is for.

Okay, OP doesn't dump the spouse, becomes clingy, questioning what he/she does when he/she is not with OP, becuase they trust each other sooooo much. WS grows very tired of this, it causes arguments, neither person feels comfortable or safe....you get the general story, fill in the blanks, but the A will not last because they both still have the same behavior model, meanwhile, YOU are learning about R's and what it takes, so you are prepared for anyting...

Oh, and BTW, here's a real life sitch with my WH. He doesn't want any more kids (so he says). He has told both his A partners this. The first MOW went running as fast as she could, back to her H. This YOUNGER woman (28) has NEVER been married, and has a sister and a mother and father who are still married. What do you think the likelihood is that she will want children someday (despite probably telling WH that she doens't want them---remember NEVER SAY NEVER)...What a pickle. Two people who aren't even REMOTELY on the same page. That makes me smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also, I've been thinking a lot about how A's start. Everything is perfect, because REALITY is never really discussed, not until after the attachment is formed. The WS/OP really only talk about the fantasy of their future life, not reality. I would assume that many things go unspoken, and once they are found out, they are FORCED together, STILL without discussing REALITY.

Real Relationships take some time to form, slowly moving from Romantic love onto a more real plane of existence, in which you sit and have drinks together, laughing, talking about your past and about your wants and dreams. No drama, nothing forcing the discussion, just TIME spent getting to know one another. Then you move on to a more serious R.

Now, does that make any sense?
Yep, it does make sense, and it fills in those blanks. Thanks for reinforcing that.

I get a little worried/frustrated when I read SAA, because of that Sue scenario, that Greg was the one who left...so Sue was almost forced into reality, she didn't CHOOSE it.

CHOOSING to end the A is the more difficult row to hoe; the WS truly needs to be brought to his/her knees, hit bottom--or so it seems.

You have experienced first hand how incredibly difficult it is for WH to escape to clinging claws of a desperate Aimless.

BUT...I LOVE that you say "HE will." Good for you, and good for your H. He is a lucky guy. Bring that WH to his knees, and let the H that's been beaten down emerge with fierce determination to turn things around. HE will.
i had hoped that the OW would go back to her husband (who lived with HER mother and HER 4 children)

so finding out that OWH divprced her a year ago has pretty much ended that hope

so now, i believe that might help to explain how the affair has lasted this long

your husband doesn't want you back.........would you
leave a man who is willing to support you and at least some of your 4 children while you get to stay at home and do nothing

i don't see it happening
My Wh is sort of similar to LilSis',

he doesn't live with MOW. They have to schedule thier rendezvous. So there is still the romantic excitment of getting away. So it seems very similar to the same stuff in A land.

It makes my stomach sick

Still
Still: RT's D is final. She's now free as a bird...so I don't think there's all that much excitement of scheduling their little meetings...they are out in the open...although the day-to-day stuff isn't encroaching on their fantasy as long as they aren't living together.

And it might not for a looong time, if her XH set it up so that spousal support would end with cohabitation or remarriage.

And WH as been talking to the boys about the "new house" that he's going to buy with a big backyard for the dog.

But since RT's free, I'm sure she'll want to hang on tight; she has three kids...and absolutely WILL NOT want to be stuck all alone. She is definitely not the type to be man-less. As one of WH's friends said when I exposed to him (he had met RT), "There's a loose-ness about her; a vixen quality." Predatory; on the prowl. I hope she's prowling right now...for some other man.

Niiiiice, huh? Just the kind of woman I want in the lives of my boys.
LIlSis,

RT sounds alot like my Wh's ho. Those are things I have heard about her. The way it appears she has never been without a man or 2. She isn'r divorced yet. Neither has filed yet.

That's why I think it's still fantasy land for them. They can only meet certain days when both don't have thier kids.

I'm not even sure where WH is going to go in a couple of weeks.. supossedly only has the lease for 9 months. I really can't see him moving in with her. Not with his kids driving by her house on the way to and from school.

Still
That scenario sounds EXACTLY what happened in my life. I got wrapped up in the kids, neglected WH and he found OW.

He lives with OW, and is happy, he told me today.

He's not coming back. He wants the D.
You have requested a scenario in which the OP does not dump the WS...but rather the WS "ends" the A. I believe I can TESTIFY that this kind of scenario can DEFINITELY happen, and here's why. I am a 45yo woman--smart, funny, kind, gentle, humble--plus I have a sick sense of humor. I believe I am pretty mature and due to my exH's multiple A's and our subsequent D, I believe I have a pretty good understanding of what Real Love is, and how to have a healthy relationship with a real partner. But I can tell you this much...even being a smart, wise woman and being married to an equal smart, wise second husband...BEING A SECOND WIFE IS HARD!!!

What happens is that there are all kinds of things that you have to deal with that are things you never thought of! For example, when I first met my step-kids, most of them were so hurt and upset about their parents' D that they wouldn't even come out of their rooms or speak to me. They didn't pick up after themselves, wouldn't eat anything that I cooked, and they treated me like a bag of dog doodoo. Now...just so you know, I don't think they hated "me" or anything...I think they were just so hurt from everything that they were pretty self-centered (and to a degree, rightfully so). But my new DH felt guilty for hurting his kids, so he wouldn't discipline them AT ALL...and those little monsters were getting away with murder. Trust me when I say that this can be tough!!

WS and OP will have to deal with this, without the benefit of having grown or matured through a place like MB...and it will be a GIGANTIC LB.

Next, there are the "crazy ex's" to consider. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Heehee!! I know this means YOU (the BS is the crazy ex) but what happens is that OP wants WS to listen to THEM and give all their attention to THEM. Imagine what an LB it is to have an ex who calls and asks for help with the lawn or asks for money or asks for anything really...and the WS is still a little tied to the BS!! That drives the OP crazy!! I know that if you'all are in a dark Plan B you are not calling and asking for favors--and that's GOOD (trust me) but that doesn't diminish the impact of the WS and the OP sitting around at the Love Shack, and the OP saying, "You are always talking about how BS won't talk to you and thinking of him/her! Well, *I* want your attention! Why aren't you thinking about ME???" Or the impact of having to pay for one of the kids' sports, lessons, or field trips. Or having to buy school supplies or clothes for the kids because the BS can't/won't send any over. Yep...HUGE LB's!!

Then, there's money. Imagine what happens every paycheck. There's that GLARING entry on the check that takes away 1/3 of the income and pays it to BS!!! Oh, that has GOT to hurt!! In AffairLand OP has got to be saying, "Look at all that money going to Him/Her! That's supposed to be OUR money!" and they have some difficulty paying their bills and going out--plus WS can't buy OP all the presents and things that he/she used to. Soooooo...they argue about money. There's never enough. OP wants WS to do "the little things" like he/she used to, but now they can't afford it because all of "their" money is going to BS!!

Then there's the pain in the heiney of COURT and court-papers and lawyers and judges and just all of it. BS just keeps D-R-A-G-G-I-N-G it out and won't cooperate, so they can never be legal and they can never get married and be legitimate. Plus there's all the attorney fees, just so the WS can get the little brats to stay over! Why do they have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars they already don't have and can't use for partying just to have those darn BRATS?? And the BS keeps winning when they do go!!!

Sooooooo...the WS thought that being with the OP would loving, safe, and happy--and instead they argue about his kids and her kids, they argue about money, they argue about ex's (or STBX's), they argue about court... Hey, guess what? The WS realizes that all this arguing is no better than when they were with BS!! They are no happier. It's costing them an arm and a leg. And everyone HATES them!!! So one day during a fight, the WS says to the OP, "That's IT! We're through!" and they break up. We all know that OP just moves on to his/her next victim...but what happens to WS?

SOME WS's have a personality disorder or another addiction (drugs, drinking, porn) -and- a stubborn streak, so because of their pride, they just stay alone and live a miserable life for a while. But SOME WS's will be alone in their apartment that was supposed to be the Love Shack, and they'll go through some withdrawal from the A and start to come to their senses. For SOME WS's the fog will start to clear and they will think back to how good they had it with BS. Furthermore, if BS has done a dark Plan B, they'll see BS as being happy, well-adjusted, taking care of the kids and their own life, and the WS will think something like, "Wow, what was I? NUTS??? Look at BS. They are doing okay! I was an IDIOT!" And right about then, the WS will swallow their pride and call BS and say, "Could we talk?"

And that's when the steps BACK TO THE MARRIAGE in the Plan B letter come into play. The steps outlined in the Plan B letter itemize for the WS the things that will need to take place in order to consider reconciliation, but at this point, the WS is willing to do them!

There! Does that help???

Your faithful friend,



CJ
It does help. Again, I thank you, CJ.

You are indeed a faithful friend.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sis
I just want to point out that I think the BS gets too focused on wanting the WS to be the one to end it. I know that every BS, myself included, wanted to be the FIRST CHOICE after all we had to endure. But what is really important is that the AFFAIR ENDS. Don't worry about why and how.

My husband was dumped by his OW, although I think that he would have dumped her shortly if she hadn't gotten there first.

It just didn't matter. He DID have the realization that the grass wasn't greener. He did come home willing to do whatever he had to.

Neither of us had a AHA moment of love and fireworks that started recovery. Instead it was a CHOICE, followed up by actions that lead to fireworks later, MUCH later.

We can't force them to feel what we want them to feel. Don't get too hung up on it. Until the affair ends, your marriage has NO CHANCE. The affair will end, and it probably won't end in a way that makes you feel victorious or vindicated.
Excellent post BrambleRose. Very true.
Thanks for this thread, too. You're a star, CJ.
like i said before, i thought the A would end because OW would go back to her H and children

now that i know OWH divorced her a year ago, that doesn't seem likely

even Jennifer harley said "I don't care what ends the affair just so it's over"
CJ,

Reading your post was like reading my situation.

But what if WH doesn't end the A? What if he and OW are happy and live happily ever after?

I don't care how the A ends, or who ends it, just that it does. But he's made it clear to me, he likes the single life. It's been a year since he's left and he's adjusted well, he said.
Maybe it's just cyclical, or maybe I just haven't been around long enough...but it seems as if there are a inordinate number of us in the same general "spot" right now...which is likely why this issue has bubbled up.

I'm sure NONE of us care exactly who ends it or how it ends...just that it DOES...and preferrably BEFORE we are so far gone, so disenchanted, so fed up that we've moved on. (For me, anyway, those are my two fears: that WH will join the 3% club, or he'll remove his head too late.)

Anyway, I take great reassurance in hearing from those who have been through the fire...and come out on the other side one way or another....hearing about how BAD it got, how hopeless, and still had a good outcome.

MarriedForever has had a good turn of events recently, though! Maybe she'll start a trend for the rest of us. It just takes time...we have to have faith that the As will end for all the reasons that we talk about...just according to God's timeline, not ours.

Let's chin up, Bees!
I have been just skimming this thread but I want to share some info. that might be somewhat uplifting...

I AM VERY MUCH HAPPILY RECOVERED IN MY MARRIAGE even though...

THE OW WAS 17 YEARS YOUNGER...

MY H BOUGHT A NEW CONDO FOR THEIR LOVENEST ( We now have it on the market, BTW)..it is a RENTAL...

HE EVENTUALLY MOVED IN WITH HER..and OUT OF THE CONDO..who knows why????

SHE GOT DIVORCED TWO MONTHS BEFORE D-DAY...

Aren't you guys seeing these factors as some of the sure reasons that your WH's AFFAIRS will last???

I think that you are forgetting that these are AFFAIR RELATIONSHIPS..established based on LIES and DECEIT..fueled by FANTASY....

This is what Jennifer is likely basing her counsel to Eav on...

There is a slim to none likelihood that these relationships will withstand the LIGHT OF DAY....

However, the INFIDELS have to REALLY GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER and the WS has to TRY TO MAKE IT WORK without the WIFEY providing RELIEF/RESCUE....

I wish I could LIFT YOU ALL UP TO THE HEIGHTS OF WHERE YOU BELONG..

I wish you could see yourselves there...

AS DIAMONDS..

AS WORTHY OF A FEAST AND NOT CRUMBS...

You hold your spouses HISTORY..GOD brought you together and wants you to be together...

BELIEVE IN YOURSELVES AS WORTHY and YOUR BLESSINGS WILL COME...

HAVE FAITH IN HIM and IN YOURSELVES..this is my belief...
This was a great post.

My WH's affair won't last...in fact I am surprised it is still going on!! They are literallly night and day. She hates kids, doesn't want mine around...he loves kids.

She smokes...he hates it

She makes fun of everything about him. His job, his accent, the fact that his truck is in my name and not his.

CAlls him stupid, niave and tells him everyone pities him.

She was trying to demand he go to her grandmothers funeral. He refused. One thing he HATES is people demanding anything of him.

This can't last.....I just sit back and LAUGH!!!!! HAVING FUN WH?? He even says he isn't happy. YAY!!!
Well, I've gotta chime in about one thing in particular. AS long as you have MB it doesn't matter who dumps who. It really doesn't. My first false recovery occurred MOSTLY due to the fact that neither one of us had any clue what to do in order to WANT it again. WE floundered. I hadn't found MB until about a year later, and WH was still VERY WAYWARD in his thinking. He was dumped by the OW. I WAS second choice, because I had no boundaries, NEITHER DOES HE. We didn't talk, we didn't do anything remotely helpful.

From what I hear, and what little I see myself, WH is not doing so HOT. He's even heavier now, and never looks happy, at least from afar when he drops my DS off and I get a gander now and then. Also, his recent mails....well thats inaccurate his emails SINCE late January don't speak of someone who is just over the moon for this woman.

Now, none of this means that we will recover, but I'm giving it my best shot.

Romantic love doesn't last, and then they say, "Well, [censored], this is no dang better than what I left" Matter of fact, what he left, in the end, is a much more fulfilling life, and comforting, comfortable, good. Meh, his choice to give it up. It will/ would suck to get the D, and I will cry and THEN I will be happy again, and healthy.\

The best chance for us to recover is Plan B. Everyone has written us off now, so it's quiet, which is good. No more drama for me. I sure would appreciate some o' dem fireworks though...
Be careful what you wish for, SL. I'm tired of those fireworks and would appreciate some quiet!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fox
i read over some of my notes from sessions with jennifer

here are things that she has pointed out:

OW's 4 children
-my husband doesn't like children and never wanted any
-OW spends alot of time taking her children to after shool activities ets....my h isn't used to sharing time with children
-expense
-lifestyle change from no children to living with 1-4 children some or part of the time

Jennifer feels her children with cause HUGE lovebusters between them

OW husband (even if they are divorced)
-OWH lives with OW's mother, he has since they were in high school
-mother and OW family accept him as a member of the family
-OW and her H have been together since 9th grade
-OWH told me that OW calls him repeatedly (2-3 times some days) telling him she still wants to be friends with him and even has said she wants to get back together with him
-OW comes and goes at her mothers house (where her H also lives) because at least some of her children still live with H
-OW mother said she will NEVER accept my husband

jennifer feels these things will cause huge lovebusters between them

sacrifice
-my h gave up a newer home with an inground pool, a corvette, his new truck, his 2 dogs for a HUD house, a little used truck and a mini-van
-OW gave up living with one or more of her children and her mother

money issues
-my husband is VERY tight with money...and gets very ANXIOUS/ANGRY about bills
-my H gave up living off two incomes
-children are EXPENSIVE
-OWH said OW has HUGE credit card debt in HER name, that she shops, shops, shops
-OW doesn't work (her H said she's had a few jobs but she always quit because she just doesn't want to work)
-my H has already expressed his frustration/anger about the expenses of trying to fix up the HUD house and that he can't pay his bills and the bill collectors keep calling his house

we had NO credit card debt (i paid them all off with an inheritance) and were able to pay our bills just fine and he STILL worried every month....imagine him now

also, my H has ALWAYS wanted to move home near his family, we both tried every year to find jobs back home

he can't do that now because OW's mother, children and family all live 3 hours away from his family

these are all things that Jennifer believes will cause much lovebusting as the "give give give" attitude of a fantasy affair changes and thier takers begin to feel comfortable enough to start making demands

having given up so much to be together, they will expect alot in return

jennifer beleives this affair will not survive these things
MIMI

THANK YOU

for pointing out that your husband A had all of the same things that make us believe our husband's A will last and his DIDN'T!!
Mimi,

I can identify with some of the things you went through. Guess that's why I value your posts so much.

My WH is living with OW who is 17 years younger.

WH just signed a new 1 year lease with her.

OW got D'd already.

OW has no kids.

The only thing that I see that is somewhat different, is that you or he never filed and went through a D like we are now.

I try and see what you are saying, but I guess my head is too thick to comprehend it all.

WH TOLD me he's happy and that this is the way that is right for him, that he's glad there's no more conflict from me, it's been a very peaceful year for him being away.

How can I make someone come back when they don't want to? How can I make someone love me when they don't? I can't!

I do try and be hopeful, I cling onto eveyone's threads seeing how my situation is like theirs and then hope my WH will wake up like their WH's did, but I TRULY believe he likes it this way. He likes being single with the OW.

Am I being stupid?
cat

i too find mimi's posts helpful for the same reasons

and yet, i think your plan B only lasted 3 months right mimi?

THAT'S a problem I have.....it seems that i see marriages here that have recovered soon after plan B started....as soon as the WS saw his needs could not be met by OP

there are many fewer recovered marraiges here that had a long plan B

i think it was believer's H who wanted to reconcile after 3 years of almost NO CONTACT AT ALL

i can't think of any others right now

can anyone help?
eav, I've often wondered the same thing, about other former Ber's. I really only know about the current crop, and, so far, we aren't faring so well...
I know Mimi says don't assume, but apparently OW is meeting WH's needs. He said he's had a no conflict year and is peaceful for once.

She must be doing something right!
Cat - they are still drugged out on their affair. That will end.
I like what Bigkahuna said. DITTO.
Big...

That's what I'm hoping for, but when? I was hoping he'd wake up by now.

Look at Eav now. Her WH's didn't end and it's been so long.

I think some WS's just don't get it.
True Cat but Harley says 2 years and MOST (not ALL) burn out.
Well WH left to live with her a year ago.

Guess I have one more to go! Unless he becomes the 3% of A's that never die.
Cat:

Please STOP quoting your WH..

He's not going to tell you the truth about the nature of their relationship.
Quote
I WAS second choice, because I had no boundaries, NEITHER DOES HE. We didn't talk, we didn't do anything remotely helpful.

Wow, that's exactly how I felt after my FWH came home both times. It took me a long, long time to believe otherwise. I can honestly say now, that without a doubt, that I am FIRST choice because my DH has shown me and told me many times over during our recovery how much I mean to him.

He is REMORSEFUL for the things he did. HE says that he COULDN'T have been in love during that time with those OP because HE wasn't HIMSELF. HE says he was living a FANTASY and that it could never have worked out with either one of them.

I KNOW in my heart of hearts that my DH loves me. But you guys have it right so YOU don't have to go through what I did WHEN you recover. Follow the plan!!
I tell you what, I have finally been awakened to what I need to SEE in order to recover. That would be a willing, WANTING party. I will accept no less. I am not happy that the recent false recovery happened, but I was prepared and I have bounced back in a big way.

I wouldn't want my WH to suffer in NOT KNOWING what he wants. He may have to suffer to get it, but he needs to know. Right now, he doesn't, so I am standing by, with no timetable in mind, but with a goal. I will know when it is over, either by his choices or by mine. I'm as prepared as I can be. When he figures it all out for himself, he'll let me know...

Cat, your WH is TALKING, and if he's talking, he's probably lying. You can tell, cause his lips are moving. Now, a kiss, that's a bit different, but sometimes just as conflicted, so just get dark.
Quote
True Cat but Harley says 2 years and MOST (not ALL) burn out.

and here is a typical affair marriage ... oh what joy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

HERE
Thanks to what I have heard from so many here, I am sure I would also know when H walked back in, minus the W. And H is the only one who is welcome.

H would be broken; bottomed out. Laid bare. Artifice and superficiality gone. Like the prodigal son, completely humbled.

A WH who comes back with WORDS alone is still a WH. A H comes back with ACTIONS.

It would still take strength on my part not to fall for the crumbs of a WH...but I'd know. Thanks to you all...I'd know.

So the UNANSWERABLE questions remain...will H ever come back (no matter how many times we hear it, I bet in the back of our minds many of us think OUR WSs are 3%ers), and if he does, will it be too late for ME?

And I say that second one because as much as I love H--and always will--I can truly see WH's A going on for a long, long time...and I know at some point I will move on. I don't want that to happen...but I don't want to live in limbo forever, either. I am going to have to trust my gut on this one...that I will "know" when it's over.
I really have stopped putting any time on anything. I've released myself. I will D when/if I'm ready. I will never be done with this man, but I can move on to a FULLY happy existence without him. He is the father of my son, so I will be in contact with him for quite some time.

I don't know what will happen. My WH doesn't seem to be as happy as all get out about his current sitch, but he could always choose to dump this girlie and move on to someone else. I just hope he doesn't turn to any other substances to 'help' him feel better. I have no control over this.

I'm pretty choked up right now, as my concern for eav is in the forefront of my mind. Today is her Double Dday, for it is the day that the infidelity turns to D. Many have already dealt with this, but she has held strong for so long in Plan B, dark, silent, hoping, and I know, tonight, is the hardest day for her.

Maybe this will be her low point in the valley on the way up that beautiful mountain.

Sis, I dread the remarriage of my WH to anyone. Just dread it, as he said he would definitely remarry (that one hurt, and it stuck with me, I can even remember the innocent look on his face when he said it). What would probably hurt me and my son the most is if he chose to remarry and have another family.
Silent,

That is my #1 fear, WH remarrying OW or any one else. OW is 17 yrs. younger, no kids, so she might want them. WH told me he didn't want anymore kids with me, he's in his 40's now, but who knows? He might do that to keep her.

That would pretty much destroy me.
Yeah, I don't look forward to that, but I will deal with it, if the time comes. I still hope it doesn't. This is almost the last place that I have that allows me this hope. Most people are aghast that I would even consider taking him back. Sometimes, I gotta tell ya, I am too!
People have asked (as they tend to do) about the boys...how are they doing with all of this?

It's like an ice cold knot in my gut.

RT's kids were friends with my kids. If WH were to marry RT, her kids would become the replacement kids.

It's one thing to throw me over for my "friend" RT, but to throw over his OWN CHILDREN for "their friends," her children...it's unconscienable; breathtaking in its sheer cruelty and thoughtlessness.

Honestly...this would be unforgiveable offense.

Remarriage in this case would be not just having "another" family...it would be totally substituting another family for his own...one that he test drove for two years before trading in the old model...or even before he put the old model up for sale. Side by side, we did things as families. Her kids over here for sleep-over, our kids over there...in the comparison, one family came up lacking...and it was his own. (I KNOW this isn't true, but the emotional response)

From the perspective of the boys...what are they to think? I imagine they'd be feeling much the same things that I have felt...except they have no context, no adult understanding, no way to filter it or intellectualize it. They just know that dad left our family for another one that he decided he liked better. So they must be not worth much. They must be replaceable, not special or significant, cheap, not uniquely and deeply loved.

I hope I'm just projecting...because those have been the feelings that I have had. But remarriage will bring all of that right home on the boys...
Hey Lil'Sis...and friends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote
MarriedForever has had a good turn of events recently, though! Maybe she'll start a trend for the rest of us. It just takes time...we have to have faith that the As will end for all the reasons that we talk about...just according to God's timeline, not ours.

('K, I know this quote is old...just catching up know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />!!!!).

You guys...and believe me, I do not say this lightly....cuz I know that Plan B sucks, BIG TIME....but, enjoy it while you can....cuz, believe it or not ~ recovery sucks even more. It ain't no walk in the park, trust me. I was feeling pretty good during Plan B. This recovery thing bites the BIG ONE.

Now, I know, I know...it'll be worth it in the end...but, Plan B gave me the time to remember who I am, who I want to be, and what I gave up and tolerated.... which all played a big part in leading up to the affair. It was time that I needed, and maybe I needed more time, I don't know....but like Lil'Sis said, God's timing is perfect, so maybe not.

I don't have tons of advice, because, well...I am not perfect. I made lots of mistakes, because I am an imperfect human being, as is FWH, as is...well, we all are. But I'm doing the best I can, and even though I screw up every single day, I am still trying. That is all you can do.

Keep on keepin' on, you guys...and pray, pray, pray. What else can we do?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Great thread, CJ. Very illuminating. I'll be marking this as one of my favorites.
Bumping this great thread for all the Plan B'ers.
Good Job Saralynn...it helped a great deal of us at that time...CJ is awesome...I hope that the MOM B will find the time to come back and post...

I wish you well...
Rin
CJ

OMG!! Too delightful--you brought needed laughter to my heart with your story. I am 5 months in a REALLY DARK Plan B, and WH has been pretty persitent in trying to get me to communicate with him by sending emails and letters while he continues to muddle through Affairland with OW in the LoveNest.

The latest attempt...he got me gift subscription to cooking magazine we used to share before he moved in with OW. We used to have fun looking at the receipes and deciding what new dish to try -- October thru December were our favorites months b/c the issues were really good!!

Now I don't see many WSs on MB who get their BSs gifts -- so if anyone has some insight as to WTH is going on I'm all ears. All I can say is I swear I'm getting more attention in Plan B than I got during the M. LOL!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hang tough killer Bs. Gifts or no, I'm staying dark.

Smartiepants
Smartiepants,

Good for you!! Sounds like your Plan B is working. I bet he breaks soon. Keep us posted.

Wish I knew what was going on in Affairland with my WH. My sitch is a little different - 34 yr marriage, grown child, I support myself, D and available OW. My only hope is that OW's financial sitch and demands to M will bring the A down.
ChaiLover,

Thanks for the encouragement! I'm only halfway through the mandatory separation period for N. Carolina, so I'll be in a holding pattern in terms of my M for awhile longer yet.

Don't know if WH will ever come out of the fog, but I'm in this now to recover ME! And that is a worthy outcome in and of itself.

And I agree with you--I think a shaky financail situation always helps end the A. Can't live out the fantasy without some cash flow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Smartie
Smartie,

Yes, I can see how my personal recovery is starting to shape up. Never thought that I would get here to be honest. I remember those bottomless days where I was sure that my life was over etc. but wow, how far I've come. I'm starting to look forward to the little things again.

N. Carolina? Isn't that one of those states that has the alienation of affection law?
Bump for Tarnsy, who seems to have given up on MB. Her WH has been living with OW for more than a year and still comes by and has dinner with her and the kids.

Many of us tried to convince her to go to plan B but she never did and now she doesn't seem to be posting anymore.

Hope she is OK.

Who
Chai

It sure is -- and both OWH and I have filed alienation of affection lawsuits against our wayward spouses' affair partners.

Found out today that OW's lawyer who is handling her divorce from BH will not even represent her against me in the AofA lawsuit - told her to get another attorney. Now OW is in a pickle because she can't afford another lawyer!!

Oh life is good some days....
Oh Smartie I love it!! What does your WH think of being in this suit by OWH??

Wonder what is going on in Affairland with two AofA suits? Bet that puts a little damper on the lovenest mattress chatter... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
This,,,

Quote
Found out today that OW's lawyer who is handling her divorce from BH will not even represent her against me in the AofA lawsuit - told her to get another attorney. Now OW is in a pickle because she can't afford another lawyer!!

Oh life is good some days....


Is the BEST thing I've read all day!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hi All,

I haven't posted in a while for 2 reasons. 1 it didn't seem like I was getting anywhere and was just dragging up the day to day stuff and 2 I printed off a thread I created for my WW in the hope she would understand she could come home even if she didn't want to.

Anyway reading this post gives me mixed feelings. On one hand I see people recovering and getting through plan B, but on the other hand I seem to think now that my WW's A will not end and I'll be one of those 3%ers.

I am waiting to move to Plan B, but this will only happen with the sale of our house. This is now being agreed and WW will take a 56% stake to my 44% stake. This has been agreed for a number of reasons. My WW could take me to court for unreasonable behaviour (although she doesn't have any) and the courts are likely to side with her as she is the main carer and secondly I don't want this to go to court for my children's sake. My solicitor has said the maximum I could get from going to court is 50% but once court costs are taken I will get less than what I will get by accepting 44%. This isn't about money, its about avoiding the big D at all costs. My WW offered me more but I needed to D her, which I couldn't agree to. This way I get to go to plan B for my own recovery.

I have tried to plan A as best I can but its difficult when my WW doesn't live here anymore and won't speak to me. OM lives with his parents and I know that when the house is sold they will live together. Here comes the next problem.

When they move in together what will this mean to my boys. If they get to know him and resent him then its possible the A could end. If she keeps them out of the way from OM then they don't live as a family and the A continues as he loses nothing. My boys have seen him twice in 9 months, but that's my fault apparently, which I don't really care as my attitude is the less they see the less the impact on them.

As OM has nothing to loses and because of the reluctance from my WW to speak to Steve H or any other MC and her sheer determination something telss me I'll be in plan B for a long time.

When I spoke to my WW the other day she said she didn't want to come home if she would just be miserable. So I said I don't want you home unless you are willing to work at things. She said she that whether we got the big D or not that if she felt she needed to come back she would. All this just before the house goes on the market.

What on earth does that tell me?

Will this ever end and am I some sort of muppet
Chai and Bugsmom

Both WH and OW are shaking in their little wayward boots!! Since they are poor as little church mice, they now to have to choose -- do I fight the spouses to screw them out of homes and retirement funds or do I fight the AofA lawsuits against the BSs? Hmmmm....

What's that you say--divorce attorneys don't work for free? But that cuts into our fantasyland money!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

LMAO!!!

Have a great weekend ladies.

Smartie
H&F:

Do you have another thread somewhere along the line? I think your post is getting lost in this one. Maybe drag out your old one and post again where others can find it.

I wish I could help you, but I'm in the same sitch as you. My WH won't end his A. We sold our house and I went into Plan B at the same time. I guess he went to live with OW, I bought a condo and moved into it. My WH got very, very hostile at the end. I broke up the little arrangement of him having both. They hate when you do that. The one thing that I can tell you is that Plan B will be good for you and your recovery.


Smartie,

Keep us posted. I always wondered if anyone ever really won in those AofA suits.
Just wanted to ask................what happens if the OW doesn't have children and the WS children are pretty much grown up???

I believe that what you wrote fits the situation when both OP have small children or children that are still living at home and I agree completly with what you wrote but what happens when this is not the situation and the BS goes dark and into Plan B. What happens then???

I'm just interested...............and I'm not disagreeing..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What happens when the OP and WS have no distractions in their life and can give each other undivided time, including sharing hobbys and when OP has money of their own?
bb
Quote
Just wanted to ask................what happens if the OW doesn't have children and the WS children are pretty much grown up???


From what I remember, Mimi was in very much the same situation; her boys were grown and the OW had none of her own (I think?). She (Mimi) sold her home, and Plan B'd her little booty off.

They are recovered.

No matter what, folks, Plan B is the best thing for you.

Maybe you guys could start another Killer Bee's thread, or I could see if I could dig up the old one from last year. It helped to keep a Plan B thread going, even if just to shoot the breeze...
Blondblossom,

I also had the same thoughts. I'm in that very situation. Our DD and OW's kids are grown. OW is single. We sold our house 1 month ago and I am in Plan B. I support myself, so my WH was free to move to OW with basically no worries - no house, no kids, no support payments etc. My only hope is that OW will drag him down financially since she has had past issues with bankruptcies and gambling.

BUT, I can see that Plan B has been good for my recovery. I bought a condo and I have been doing very well. I'm spending time with friends, shopping for some furniture and decorating items, and am finding that it is nice to be away from the drama of the A.

Actually, I'm doing much better than I ever thought possible. The day we moved, I bottomed out I think. WH said he didn't want to be M anymore. Didn't think I would make it through that day. But once I got into my new place, which is bright, cheery, and clean, I did a complete turnaround. My personal recovery began.
bump

great post for all current and future plan Bers!
WH has been with OP for 1 year now.WH says I'LL get my D papers in Jan.My question is;the fact that he has now filed does it change the dynamic in affairland?Obviously OP will be happy but will WH expect more from her or what?
I know we will be in the 3% that does not fail. D in Oct H married OW in Nov I have been in a dark Plan B since March 06 doing my own recovery.

Is the affair still an affair now that they are married H seems to think that now that he is married just get on with it, ignore what he done before and start a fresh life.
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