A Thread for Kiras - 06/10/07 06:54 AM
This thread is for kiras, who started posting HERE.
kiras wrote:
and
kiras wrote:
Quote
I have been married for 10 years and I have never been able to successfully resolve any major issue with my wife or reach a point where we can negotiate or resolve conflicts.
My wife constantly accuses me of lying and being incompetent or pathetic.
Initially in the early days of our marriage, I would do various cleaning chores etc. This would cause great conflict and distress amongst us that resulted in arguments. I now just try to appease her which does not work and causes resentments in her. I am at my wits end after several psychologists’ who can not assist me much. I have read Dr Harvey’s basic concepts but it does not seem to address a way back that works for me.
This is a typical conversation with my wife
(I am “H” my wife is “W”)
W Have you finished washing the bed linen?
H I put it in the washing machine 3 minutes ago darling. I will hang it out when the machine finishes it.
W Are you sure you did it?
H Sure! It is in the machine – Why, what’s wrong?
W Don’t give me “What’s wrong” you known darn well what’s wrong!!
H Sorry, you’ve lost me, is there a problem with the wash?
W You’re Pathetic!! If you were honest you would not have said you have washed the bed linen when you clearly have not!!
H Now I’m really lost!
W Let me spell it out slowly so you can understand – if you had washed the bed linen like I asked, you would have washed both sheets and BOTH pillow cases. That pillow case down on the floor that is staring at you right now would be in the wash with the rest of the linen. So don’t lie to me and tell me that you “put it in the washing machine 3 minutes ago DARLING!!!” You put SOME of the linen in the wash and could not be bothered to check you did it right, because lets face it you care about the washing about as much as you care about me you lying ******.
H I am sad you feel so angry about this. I do care about you and I am sorry if I missed the pillowcase. I will put it in the wash now as the cycle has not finished.
W Don’t bother - and don’t try to cover up your neglect. You’re not sorry at all; if you were you would have shown some interest in me and the washing and not stuffed up in the first place. – GO AWAY and get out of my sight.
24 hours later
W I hon, what do you want to do tonight?
H Gee it is good to see that you are in a good mood; do you want to have dinner or watch TV?
W Sure – Whatever.
H Before we do can I talk about how I felt last night?
W What about?
H Well, I felt really hurt and humiliated when you spoke those words to me. I AM sorry that I missed the pillowcase, and I tried to correct my mistake. However, I felt really hurt by the way you criticised and belittled me in front of the children over a mistake that was easily fixed. I know you felt Angry and I want to understand what is really going on between us, can we explore this together for a while before we do something tonight.
W Why must you always bring up the past!!! I have moved on from that but oh no you must go and ruin a romantic evening by dwelling on your own past hurts – you selfish self indulgent pig. Thanks for ruining my night or didn’t you notice that I was over it and willing to move on – you’re the one who wants trouble, not me!!!
That conversation took place about a month after we married. It is now 10 years on and this same conversation is played out in more or less the same style every few weeks or even days. Of course it is not bed linen, it may be cleaning, washing up or even the accuracy of words e.g.:
W What time did you get up this morning?
H 6 am
W Then why did I see you reaching for the alarm clock at 6.02am?
H Well it was about 6 am
W You didn’t say that. You said 6 am.
H I meant about 6 am.
W If you meant about 6 am you would have said about 6 am not 6 am.
H Next time I will say about 6 am.
W You’re still a liar.
Over the years we tried a few marriage counsellors who set goals for me to only do what I wanted to do, let her deal with the difference between my actions and her expectations. This only infuriated her and she refused to go back.
After a while we evolved. I would use only broad statements that were not very clear responses or I would try to appease her by asking very details instructions for not only what she wanted but how it was to be achieved. This worked for a while until she accused me of being un-spontainious or uncreative and “Robotic” or unpassionate.
She said I should see a Psychologist to learn how to be a man and make proper decisions even if she gets angry in the process which she sees as a natural and accurate expression of her feelings.
For a while I would fight back and yell at her if she started getting abusive. I would then slam the front door and go for a drive for a few hours. On my return she would be even angrier and accuse me of “running away” or “whimping out”. She would also label this as violent behaviour and instruct me to see another therapist to sort it out.
Having seen a good CBT psychologist I now know that my responses were in fact inappropriate and that I need to monitor my anger, feel and experience it, but not act on it. I can now stay calm, speak slowly and compassionately to my wife no matter how inflamed her language or put downs become. However, I feel very remote, detached and as Dr Harvey would say – Withdrawn.
The good news is that my wife has agreed to read some of Dr Harvey’s material but still blankly refuses to re-enter marriage counselling as she say “how can someone who has a stupid husband, 3 small children who wakes at 7 am and gets to bed at 2 am afford the time to go to some therapist just because her husband can’t handle things without some therapist to hold his hand”.
I love the ideas Dr Harvey has, and would love to implement them, but how do you get the traction in your marriage to get it going. I feel like I am always behind the 8 ball. (My wife says that last comment was just me being a victim and trying to make her out as the bad guy).
I see my main limitation as now wanting to debrief and resolve past hurts that I still remember but she has probably forgotten.
Despite what she says, I do not believe that the following two objectives are unreasonable:
1. restore power balance
2. agree to framework for conflict mapping and active listening (feedback, negotiated agreements for all activities)
I asked her about this once and she said I was dreaming as “all I want to do is talk rather than act and she has no time for theoretical talk”
Is there hope for such marriages???
My wife constantly accuses me of lying and being incompetent or pathetic.
Initially in the early days of our marriage, I would do various cleaning chores etc. This would cause great conflict and distress amongst us that resulted in arguments. I now just try to appease her which does not work and causes resentments in her. I am at my wits end after several psychologists’ who can not assist me much. I have read Dr Harvey’s basic concepts but it does not seem to address a way back that works for me.
This is a typical conversation with my wife
(I am “H” my wife is “W”)
W Have you finished washing the bed linen?
H I put it in the washing machine 3 minutes ago darling. I will hang it out when the machine finishes it.
W Are you sure you did it?
H Sure! It is in the machine – Why, what’s wrong?
W Don’t give me “What’s wrong” you known darn well what’s wrong!!
H Sorry, you’ve lost me, is there a problem with the wash?
W You’re Pathetic!! If you were honest you would not have said you have washed the bed linen when you clearly have not!!
H Now I’m really lost!
W Let me spell it out slowly so you can understand – if you had washed the bed linen like I asked, you would have washed both sheets and BOTH pillow cases. That pillow case down on the floor that is staring at you right now would be in the wash with the rest of the linen. So don’t lie to me and tell me that you “put it in the washing machine 3 minutes ago DARLING!!!” You put SOME of the linen in the wash and could not be bothered to check you did it right, because lets face it you care about the washing about as much as you care about me you lying ******.
H I am sad you feel so angry about this. I do care about you and I am sorry if I missed the pillowcase. I will put it in the wash now as the cycle has not finished.
W Don’t bother - and don’t try to cover up your neglect. You’re not sorry at all; if you were you would have shown some interest in me and the washing and not stuffed up in the first place. – GO AWAY and get out of my sight.
24 hours later
W I hon, what do you want to do tonight?
H Gee it is good to see that you are in a good mood; do you want to have dinner or watch TV?
W Sure – Whatever.
H Before we do can I talk about how I felt last night?
W What about?
H Well, I felt really hurt and humiliated when you spoke those words to me. I AM sorry that I missed the pillowcase, and I tried to correct my mistake. However, I felt really hurt by the way you criticised and belittled me in front of the children over a mistake that was easily fixed. I know you felt Angry and I want to understand what is really going on between us, can we explore this together for a while before we do something tonight.
W Why must you always bring up the past!!! I have moved on from that but oh no you must go and ruin a romantic evening by dwelling on your own past hurts – you selfish self indulgent pig. Thanks for ruining my night or didn’t you notice that I was over it and willing to move on – you’re the one who wants trouble, not me!!!
That conversation took place about a month after we married. It is now 10 years on and this same conversation is played out in more or less the same style every few weeks or even days. Of course it is not bed linen, it may be cleaning, washing up or even the accuracy of words e.g.:
W What time did you get up this morning?
H 6 am
W Then why did I see you reaching for the alarm clock at 6.02am?
H Well it was about 6 am
W You didn’t say that. You said 6 am.
H I meant about 6 am.
W If you meant about 6 am you would have said about 6 am not 6 am.
H Next time I will say about 6 am.
W You’re still a liar.
Over the years we tried a few marriage counsellors who set goals for me to only do what I wanted to do, let her deal with the difference between my actions and her expectations. This only infuriated her and she refused to go back.
After a while we evolved. I would use only broad statements that were not very clear responses or I would try to appease her by asking very details instructions for not only what she wanted but how it was to be achieved. This worked for a while until she accused me of being un-spontainious or uncreative and “Robotic” or unpassionate.
She said I should see a Psychologist to learn how to be a man and make proper decisions even if she gets angry in the process which she sees as a natural and accurate expression of her feelings.
For a while I would fight back and yell at her if she started getting abusive. I would then slam the front door and go for a drive for a few hours. On my return she would be even angrier and accuse me of “running away” or “whimping out”. She would also label this as violent behaviour and instruct me to see another therapist to sort it out.
Having seen a good CBT psychologist I now know that my responses were in fact inappropriate and that I need to monitor my anger, feel and experience it, but not act on it. I can now stay calm, speak slowly and compassionately to my wife no matter how inflamed her language or put downs become. However, I feel very remote, detached and as Dr Harvey would say – Withdrawn.
The good news is that my wife has agreed to read some of Dr Harvey’s material but still blankly refuses to re-enter marriage counselling as she say “how can someone who has a stupid husband, 3 small children who wakes at 7 am and gets to bed at 2 am afford the time to go to some therapist just because her husband can’t handle things without some therapist to hold his hand”.
I love the ideas Dr Harvey has, and would love to implement them, but how do you get the traction in your marriage to get it going. I feel like I am always behind the 8 ball. (My wife says that last comment was just me being a victim and trying to make her out as the bad guy).
I see my main limitation as now wanting to debrief and resolve past hurts that I still remember but she has probably forgotten.
Despite what she says, I do not believe that the following two objectives are unreasonable:
1. restore power balance
2. agree to framework for conflict mapping and active listening (feedback, negotiated agreements for all activities)
I asked her about this once and she said I was dreaming as “all I want to do is talk rather than act and she has no time for theoretical talk”
Is there hope for such marriages???
and
Quote
I have also visited the sites above (www.youarenotcrazy.com but the web sites seems to give women specific info and handling men. What about the guys? I identified with the stories but how are men meant to find their way through it all?
...recently my wife admitted that she made some errors in the past in the way she handled certain situations. However she said that all I did was wanted to "Discuss" it at the time and I completely failed to prevent her from taking such painfull action. She says that I "talk much and do little" and that if I wanted her to do something (or more importantly) not do something, then I should have DONE something rather than suggested she change. She said the first thing I could have done is not made the mistake in the first place and then no one would have had to yell.
...Thanks for your comments. I still hope that I can find a way through. I know that Dr Harley mentions that one partner can lead the other back. I hope I have enough love bank deposits left. My wife says that Dr Harley is just "words" and unless a person ACTS responsibly (this means not making mistakes) then all the words are useless.
My key question is "How do you get your partner to come to marriage counseling when they see the problem as totally the responsibility of the other partner" or as my wife says "in the times that she has been wrong, I totally failed to prevent her from making those mistakes"
And why does all the DV web sites speak solely about abusive men - I do not believe that I am the only man in the world going through this???
...recently my wife admitted that she made some errors in the past in the way she handled certain situations. However she said that all I did was wanted to "Discuss" it at the time and I completely failed to prevent her from taking such painfull action. She says that I "talk much and do little" and that if I wanted her to do something (or more importantly) not do something, then I should have DONE something rather than suggested she change. She said the first thing I could have done is not made the mistake in the first place and then no one would have had to yell.
...Thanks for your comments. I still hope that I can find a way through. I know that Dr Harley mentions that one partner can lead the other back. I hope I have enough love bank deposits left. My wife says that Dr Harley is just "words" and unless a person ACTS responsibly (this means not making mistakes) then all the words are useless.
My key question is "How do you get your partner to come to marriage counseling when they see the problem as totally the responsibility of the other partner" or as my wife says "in the times that she has been wrong, I totally failed to prevent her from making those mistakes"
And why does all the DV web sites speak solely about abusive men - I do not believe that I am the only man in the world going through this???