Marriage Builders
Posted By: Aphaeresis I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 02:35 AM
He told me yesterday that not only is he putting any talk of my confession off the table, but that all relationship is off the table and our entire marriage is on hold until he gets another job.

I've been through that before. Everytime he needs another job, I get demoted from wife to roommate. The thought of living the rest of my life that way was too much. So tonight I told him that his habit of doing this is excrutiatingly painful for me and that this has to change one way or the other. He said my characterization of it as a "demotion" was just my characterization of it. I said that's how I feel. He said I'm sorry you feel that way. I said "but apparently not sorry enough to do anything about it."

I said we have a huge problem and need to deal with it. I told him I cheated on you. I think I was right that he already knew because he didn't seem surprised. Even then the only things he asked were, what do I want to do? (Work things out and not do what I was doing before) and what is the goal of working things out? (a better marriage wherein we can talk about problems and find solutions instead of putting everything on hold.)

I thought that by violating his rule of not telling him anything until he thinks he can deal with it he'd get angry and ask for a divorce. That's not exactly how it went.

He said he feels conflicted about working things out because 1- he feels like he wants to kill himself (more excuses for why he won't seek help..ugh!) and 2- he thinks it's hopeless, that there is no way to work things out and therefore there is no point in even trying.

So my problem as I see it is:

1- Helping him get over his depression even though he refuses to get help. He is so stubborn about this! I am tempted to slip anti-depressants into his diet soda. No, I would not actually do that, of course, but I can dream.

2- Instilling in him a sense of hope for us, without requiring him to do anything until he gets that hope. I don't know how I would go about doing that. With him, my kids, my friends, my attempts to comfort people I love usually include physical affection but he does not want that from me right now (nor sex for that matter.)

I have been working on conversation, admiration and domestic support. Recreational companionship is a bit tough, but he finally agreed to start watching a tv show together that we both like. As for "need for an attractive spouse" I've already been on a weight loss plan for quite some time, and he prefers women who don't wear makeup. So there isn't really anything for me to do in that department that I wasn't already doing.

Anybody got any other suggestions?

And how do I know when it's time to throw in the towel because he will never be motivated to do anything to help save the marriage? It would help if I knew what to expect as a reasonable timeframe in which to see some results. At some point he's got to want to be married to me or this won't work. Right now, he's ambivalent.

p.s., FH - your 7-point post on the other thread helped. Thanks!
Posted By: MarriedMom Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 02:57 AM
I'm not sure I'll be much help but I commend you for being so strong. From what I read you have been through alot and still have fight left.

Does he understand that anti D medicine can help? Maybe a brochure or something that he could read, if he'll do that.

Instilling a hope is going to be difficult, I'd think either you have it or not. Maybe show him your best side, the one he fell in love with..?

I hope things work out for you! You are right about setting some kind of timeframe, I wouldnt say wait for years to see results but I'm no where near an expert!
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 03:22 AM
Thanks, MarriedMom.

He knows it works for me, but he sees mine as different. Mine is biological and his is not, he thinks. According to him, all he needs is a new job and he'll be fine. That's probably true, but in the meantime he's miserable and occasionally tough to deal with.

He says now that he will get help when he's in the position of being able to find and keep one doctor he can rely on. But that also would require him finding a job because we don't know where we'll be living. He says he doesn't have time for counseling, although he did agree to go to family counseling to deal with some medical problems the kids are having that might be stress-related - assuming we can get in for free, which might be possible. I'll call Monday to find out. Maybe if he is able to establish a repore with the family counselor he might open up to that person about his own problems.

There was a cognitive-behaviorism book that helped me once. I don't know if I could get him to read a whole book on the subject, but maybe if I find the right article that teaches him how to apply the concepts himself he might do that.
Posted By: woundedgentleman Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 04:25 AM
Glad you were able to have the discussion; I have to think it is a helpful step for your marriage.

Quote
I thought that by violating his rule of not telling him anything until he thinks he can deal with it he'd get angry and ask for a divorce. That's not exactly how it went.
I wouldn't have thought so. What's the 'crime' here: that you tell him something he doesn't want to hear or that you utterly betrayed him?

His feeling angry makes sense. Suicide isn't a good response, but feeling angry is much better than feeling nothing.

That he would consider family counseling is great. However, I suspect the real issue threatening the children is the problems in the marriage.

Giving him reasons to hope. Besides avoiding LBs and meeting ENs, you want to be open, honest, transparent, keeping of NC, dedicated to the marriage relationship.

Some specific things you could do:
(1) Unilaterally give him your email passwords and tell him that he is free to read your mail (you had contact with OM via email, I think). Don't get new accounts or change passwords without telling him.

(2) Get tested for STDs and give him the printed lab results. Don't make a big deal about it. Tell him you're so sorry your actions made this necessary.

(3) Did you have contact with OM by a cell phone? If so, change numbers and tell your BH why.

(4) Be totally willing to furnish details such as OMs identities, how many OM there were, how you communicated, how you were able to arrange to meet for sex. BTW, in your talk were you able to mention how many OM there were and be unambiguous that they were sexual relationships? You have nothing to lose by fully disclosing the situation.

(5) For now, accept restrictions on your behavior since you haven't been trustworthy. Don't do anything that would cause him to worry. Put defensive boundaries in place to avoid any inappropriate friendship with another man.

(6) If you have any physical token of an affair (e.g., gift, love letter, photograph) box it up, offer to give it your H first, and then discard it.

(7) Did you express any remorse for your actions? If not, why not?

(8) Every so often ask your H to please tell you if there is anything he would like you to do to help the relationship recover.

(9) Harley says that SF and RC are the two most common male ENs. I wouldn't discount them easily. You seem ready to provide conversation and affection (the typical female ENs); perhaps there is a chance you are trying to love him the way you would best feel loved and not the way he would most feel love and care.

You ask about timeframe (how long to wait). I understand hurting motivates this question, but its really kind of a selfish perspective. Also, if you constantly think about bailing it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy. What is acting hastily going to do for you? Perhaps you have some belief that being in another relationship will make you a happier person; this is not generally the case. If you want some additional motivation to stick it out when it feels hard, read any of Judith Wallerstein's research on the effects of D on children.

Have you read dorry's recovery guide for WWs?

- WG
Posted By: Orchid Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 04:26 AM
At the very least you go get HNHN and take the EN questionnaire. Once as you and once as him (unless he is willing t/d his own). U read the book and leave it accessible for him. NO pressure, just watch.

Check back in about 2 weeks. Yea....guys are slow about this stuff....sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 05:56 AM
woundedgentlemen,

Yes I did express remorse, and I did make it clear that these were sexual relationships although I didn't say how many.

I'll do the other suggestions, thanks.

As for SF, I have made this offer to my husband twice now: OS without any expectation of something in return. He turned it down twice. The first time he said he appreciated the offer. The second time he said he didn't want to be mean but he "just wasn't feeling it" because of his anger toward me. I'm sure this is also a source of insecurity for him because he has a medical problem (trouble with orgasm) and we have always had some incompatibility when it comes to what we like in bed. I think any further offers will just make him feel pressured.

When I asked about a timeframe, it is because I'm afraid of spending years emotionally investing in trying to hang onto a husband who doesn't want me and won't ever want me again. If the most I will ever get from him is tolerating me for the sake of the kids, then I'd need to face that reality at some point and protect myself from further rejection and heartache. The last thing I'd want is a husband who sees me as the woman he can't stand be around who has him trapped because of the kids. Maybe that's selfish, but I don't think he would want that either.

Orchid, he won't do the EN survey and probably would refuse to read mine. He refuses to go look at this site. He is refusing to read any material on marital help. Basically he wants to do zero work on the marriage until he is convinced that his efforts will not go to waste. I could leave the book out so he can see it and read it when he's ready. But I really don't think he'll read it until he decides he wants to be married to me.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 06:02 AM
Oh, and I just read Dorry's guide and Pat's guide too.
Posted By: woundedgentleman Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 06:46 AM
Quote
When I asked about a timeframe, it is because I'm afraid of spending years emotionally investing in trying to hang onto a husband who doesn't want me and won't ever want me again.
Betrayed spouses are more resilent then they think; love can be restored. Have hope!

Even if you invested years of effort and your marriage didn't thrive you'd have some very tangible benefits: (1) you'd be a better person for it; (2) you know you gave it your best effort; (3) you tried to spare your children the consequences of D and you showed them that M is worth working at; (4) you would be better prepared for other relationships.

Quote
Basically he wants to do zero work on the marriage until he is convinced that his efforts will not go to waste.
Right now he's got to be very hurt. You, his most trusted friend, wife, and lover have profoundly, even cruelly hurt him. Doesn't he deserve some time to heal? Don't you want to show him, both today and in the long term, that you will be the wife he wants to be married to?

On SF. Just keep in mind that even if he declines, he may actually want it but something relational is preventing him from being able to enjoy this with you. In the early months after finding out about my WW's affairs the following things were true: (1) She wanted us to have SF; (2) I had intense desire for her; (3) I grieved for the relational-intimacy that was now shattered; and (4) I knew she was still seeing affair partners, and in that environment I could not connect meaningfully with her in that way.

Well, don't push it. If he can't enjoy it now it would be a mistake.

- WG
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 07:28 AM
Quote
Right now he's got to be very hurt. You, his most trusted friend, wife, and lover have profoundly, even cruelly hurt him. Doesn't he deserve some time to heal? Don't you want to show him, both today and in the long term, that you will be the wife he wants to be married to?

Yes, absolutely he does. And he's feeling ambivalent about being married to me at all, so it does make sense that he would not want to invest emotionally in the marriage right now. I can deal with that as long as I don't lose hope of that changing in the future. And telling me he's ambivalent ("conflicted" was the word he used) is a definite step up from "I want a divorce."
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 01:39 PM
A:

Congrats on telling him!

I'm very proud of you!

Has he cut off communications with his EA internet friend?

Yes, he has alot of info to process right now, but you did the right thing. You have started to change the torched landscape of your M into something that something better can grow in.

Be available.

Do the ENQ as if you were him, and start meeting those needs that you think might be the ones that he most needs met.

His not having a job right now, makes whatever happens short term, very dicey.

Because he isn't providing for his family and his W just revealed to him that she was involved in many A while he is away.

So, he is in a very bad spot right now.

Be available and talk to him, about whatever he wants to talk about. When he wants to talk R, then you talk about it, but not until then.

Be available, and show physical affection, if he will let you, (touch him, rub his shoulders, give him hugs, etc) so that he knows that you not rejecting him completely.

SF? Let him initiate. He might not want to for quite a while, but just let him know that you are available for that as well. It might blossom with a vengenance one day soon, and H may want it all night long.

So be available for it.

Congrats on your honesty. No matter what, that was the right thing to do.

LG
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 03:04 PM
Thanks, lousygolfer.

Communications with OW seem to have ended back in late August. It seems he started looking by placing at least two online personals ads, talked to a few women, and didn't find what he was looking for.

There was a woman on a game of his that he communicated with more recently, but he said there was nothing there. It was an angry email cutting off contact with her over something that happened in the game and he compared her unfavorably to his ex-wife (he was married once before and divorced her because of her multiple substance addictions). Because of that comparison I was suspicious, but he said they sometimes talked about other people and that's all there was to it. Even though he was cutting off contact in anger I was afraid she might convince him to forgive her because she did send an apology. But he seems to have lost interest in the game altogether and has not been on since I've been here. I had gotten a free account so I could play with him but then he told me he doesn't play it anymore. I was relieved because I think the game is stupid and he was obsessed with it for a few years. Was it because that friendship was really an EA? I don't know. He's gotten obsessed with games before so I really have no way of knowing for sure, but I'm not worried about it as long as he's not playing the game anymore.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 03:22 PM
Aphaeresis,

Just wanted to say "Hang in there." I'm pulling for you.

I'm also praying for you, FWIW.

Mark
Posted By: Mr. Goodstuff Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 03:45 PM
I am amazed that you stuck around this long. You have been “beat up” here in a fairly routine manner, yet you stuck it out. You finely told him “straight out” and now the real work can begin.

As you know, your marriage can use some real help and I’m not just saying that because of the affair behaviors from your husband and you. I might suggest that you start repairs based on two common bonds that exist, a.) You are husband and wife, and b.) You are mother and father to the same child.

You and he have lots of work to do and the very next step is to create a mutual desire to save the marriage. He has told you that he is unsure of his resolve but have you stated your resolve to him?

You are both in desperate need of marriage counseling and perhaps some independent counseling as well. Based on your description of him, I might suggest that he will benefit the most from getting some type of help but I suspect that you already know that.

As husband and wife it is important that you arrive at a mutual state where SF is rewarding to both of you. I have the feeling that this is where the ultimate deal breaker may surface. There is something that is preventing him from achieving both physical and emotional intimacy with you and that must be fixed. It could be ALL based in the affair activities but I would not be surprised if there were more than meets the eye.

For now, it is important that he knows where you stand. Do you want to restore the marriage? He must know your resolve and will likely not commit to anything until he knows that you are sincere. Convincing him of your sincerity with be most difficult.

One last thing, for recovery to progress you must be together. It can’t work while you are separated due to his work.

You have made the noble move, the courageous move. You have given your marriage a chance. It is time for you to start to heal from your mistakes of the past.

Mr. G
Posted By: Orchid Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 03:58 PM
Quote
Thanks, lousygolfer.

Communications with OW seem to have ended back in late August. It seems he started looking by placing at least two online personals ads, talked to a few women, and didn't find what he was looking for.

There was a woman on a game of his that he communicated with more recently, but he said there was nothing there. It was an angry email cutting off contact with her over something that happened in the game and he compared her unfavorably to his ex-wife (he was married once before and divorced her because of her multiple substance addictions). Because of that comparison I was suspicious, but he said they sometimes talked about other people and that's all there was to it. Even though he was cutting off contact in anger I was afraid she might convince him to forgive her because she did send an apology. But he seems to have lost interest in the game altogether and has not been on since I've been here. I had gotten a free account so I could play with him but then he told me he doesn't play it anymore. I was relieved because I think the game is stupid and he was obsessed with it for a few years. Was it because that friendship was really an EA? I don't know. He's gotten obsessed with games before so I really have no way of knowing for sure, but I'm not worried about it as long as he's not playing the game anymore.

Then his lack of M participation has less t/d with your A and more t/d w/his A. It is the WS attitude that is the real issue. His lack of trust in you would manifest greater if their was no WS attitude.

This is what you need to let him know. Let him know you realize something important about him. Don't tell him, let him ask you. It is vital you have his attention before you speak. When he is willing to give you attention with a fair attitude (don't expect too nice - just a calm one), then let him know you realize he has a WS attitude. That when he is ready to shed that attitude you may be available to talk about it. That you know how awful it is to have a WS attitude and you learned how NOT to have one. Let him know WS attitudes are highly destructive and you fear for his emotional survival because having gone through it, you realize you love your real H and NOT the WS. Again remind him if he is ready to talk more, you may be available. Don't appear anxious to talk about it. Keep cool. Then end the convo with a hug or just end it on a pleasant note.

Do NOT expect a response. Be willing to walk away leaving him to his thoughts. The goal is to get him thinking.

Read HNHN.

L.
Posted By: changd4ever Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 04:12 PM
Quote
Even if you invested years of effort and your marriage didn't thrive you'd have some very tangible benefits: (1) you'd be a better person for it; (2) you know you gave it your best effort; (3) you tried to spare your children the consequences of D and you showed them that M is worth working at; (4) you would be better prepared for other relationships.

I completely agree with this. I bailed early after my ex-wifes affair, and I have a lot of remorse for it. Even if things never work out, I think knowing you corrected your mistakes and did whatever you could do to make things right will help you immensly. Good luck. You're getting a lot of good advice, and you seem to be trying to apply it.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 08:57 PM
Mark and changd4ever, thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Orchid,

I'll have to think about that one a bit. I'm afraid it might be confusing to him because he's not familiar with MB or its terminology and isn't willing to learn it yet. But either way, thanks.

Mr.G,

thanks! I have made it clear to him that I want to save the marriage and make it better than before.

Separation will not be a problem anymore. Even when I go back for a week to move out and clean the house I was renting, he will take his vacation time to come with me.

As for SF, the problems are many and varied, but I have thought of some possible solutions that I had not thought of before. One thing that has to happen, though, is for him to go to a doctor because part of the problem is medical. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a good doctor for sexual problems. His last one, a urologist, told him he's just getting old! You'd think doctors would be less uptight than the general population, but apparently not.

As for counseling, I'll start him out coming with us to family counseling and then see how it goes from there.

All,

I gave him all my passwords to my computer, my email addresses and my YouTube account, and my IM account. I deleted a secret IM account and deleted all the necessary contacts on my first account. I uninstalled IRC (chat program). I wrote them all down in a list and gave it to him. He didn't say anything about it but I noticed he put it somewhere where it wouldn't get lost.

Today we took the kids for a drive and then to a playground to watch them play while we talked about nothing in particular. With no extra money and no babysitter we can't do much for recreational outings but at least he got to take a break from job hunting and we were together.
Posted By: schoolbus Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 09:09 PM
Aph,

I'm proud of you. You did something very difficult, and I know it was hard.

You will be carrying the weight for awhile, because right now, he just can't.

You've come a very long way since you first signed on here.

There are miles to go ahead of you. Recovery isn't for sissies. I'll keep you in my prayers.

SB
Posted By: Orchid Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/07 11:17 PM
Quote
I'll have to think about that one a bit. I'm afraid it might be confusing to him because he's not familiar with MB or its terminology and isn't willing to learn it yet. But either way, thanks.

He doesn't need to know or care about MB. Just let him know. I did this with mine.

I even told him he was a WS, then explained WS meant wayward spouse. He agreed.

L.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/15/07 01:49 AM
Orchid, ok.

schoolbus, thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/15/07 10:41 PM
Well we seem to be enjoying each other's company now. It's weird because we seem to be getting along better than we have in a long time with the exception that there's no physical contact. He hasn't launched into interrogation mode yet. In spite of how much of a CA he is, I'm still surprised he hasn't asked any questions yet.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 07/15/07 11:34 PM

You are obviously married to someone who dances to his own drummer. It could very well be that he was really bent on divorce because he thought you would reject him at some point in life - age difference. So when instead of divorcing him or leaving him, you instead confessed to having affairs, were swearing off affairs and attempting to rebond with him. Now that would blow his mind.

He has a job in October. That gives him some sort of security if the two of you can hold things together that long. There is also the issue of kid(s).

He is probably going to have a delayed hit. Watch for it.

Larry
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/16/07 03:00 AM
Larry,

That's exactly what he told me during one of his divorce threats when he bought that business. He said I'd divorce him later anyway and better now than after he has a successful business. To me it was complete crazy talk.

And yeah I'll be watching for that delayed hit. I sometimes have a delayed reaction when someone I know dies.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 07/16/07 04:31 AM

I think you know why I am saying this; he has never completely believed that his marriage to you is real. Even with children, he has waited for the other shoe to fall. He doesn't seem to understand that you married him for him and that your affairs were acts of immaturity that had nothing to do with being married to him or not.

You had the security of a marriage with him and that left you free to practice your hedonism without the emotions of an attachment that might have trapped you in that scene.

Does that sound right?

You are going to be hanging by your fingernails for a while, I suspect.

Larry
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/16/07 08:03 PM
Larry,

Yeah that sounds about right. I was compartmentalizing my life to such an extent I thought crazy things like, "my other sexual relationships have nothing to do with my husband." I was living in two worlds at once and fully believed that neither would influence the other as long as I never got caught. Once I saw that belief being challenged I was on my way back to my home world for good.

I am so saddened by the thought that he never believed our marriage was real even in the beginning. And it would make me angry if he thought I married him for his money - not that he was rich or anything in the first place, just better off than me.

He had a lot of trouble sleeping last night. I suspect it's my fault and plan to give him an opportunity to vent in safety (without me saying anything) if that's what he wants.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/17/07 03:33 AM
I did what I said I planned. I gave him an opportunity to vent but he said even if he was totally convinced my theory about his insomnia was correct, he was too tired to take me up on it tonight. I told him okay, but consider it a standing invitation.

I got a reply from my NC letter to the ex-bf. He said not only does he understand but he wishes me well and that this would be his last contact. That's the best outcome I could have gotten. I felt relieved because it tells me he's going to be okay. I got silence from my NC letter to my first OM. I know that's good because it's what's necessary but I worry occasionally. I'm sure it'll pass in time, though.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 07/17/07 05:20 AM
Aphaeresis,

I just wanted to jump in and say "Good job!" You do seem to be getting it.

Keep up the good work.

BTW,don't worry about what past B/Fs are doing or thinking. Worry about your H right now; he needs all of your attention for a while, but don't forget the kids.

Carry on!

Mark
Posted By: passionpeach Re: I finally told him directly - 07/17/07 11:29 AM
Aphaeresis,

What you have been doing takes a lot of patience and resilience. What else could there be to say but: you're doing great and keep on working. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The rewards will be great...and it'll all be worth it.

Lots of luck to you.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/17/07 08:27 PM
Thanks Mark and passionpeach <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and everybody <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/19/07 05:22 PM
Nothing new yet. When will I notice some change? 3 months?

I feel like I should be doing more, but I don't know what. Or maybe I'm just being impatient, I'm not sure.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 07/19/07 06:38 PM
Aphaeresis,

It could be a while before you begin to notice small improvements. Plan A is all about patience, so you'll learn a lot about that.

Resist the temptation to try to run headlong into "fixing" the M. Build NEW love between you by spending time together doing things not related to problem solving. Have some "dates" even if they are just sitting on the sofa watching a movie after kids are asleep. Show as much affection as he will allow and watch for signs of him responding in any positive way. Note the circumstances when he responds in good ways and try to duplicate the results by repetition.

Beware of resentment over past hurts. While they need to be dealt with, many of them will slip away if things improve in the future. Avoid bringing up past hurts like the plague, because they are a plague that will destroy efforts to rebuild love and trust. Once you are both in love with each other again, problems can be tackled one at a time and you may even find that the solution to one resolves others.

Keep working on YOU and let him see the changes. Lead by example and hopefully he will follow.

Hang in there! It might just work out yet...

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/19/07 09:59 PM
Mark,

Thanks. I'll do that.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/22/07 10:24 PM
update - My last OM emailed me today. I had already told him when he moved away that it was over because I'd be working on my marriage so I did not expect any contact. But I think he got too attached even though we agreed at the time it was just about sex.

Anyway, I told my husband about the email, said I was deleting it and telling him because I didn't want him to think I was hiding anything. Then I deleted it without sending any response. My husband didn't say much - just the usual stuff about needing to have a long talk when there's not a big financial crisis looming over us.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 07/23/07 10:33 PM
Aphaeresis,

Good work! Small changes make the difference. Honesty is one of the keys. If you remain honest, it will begin to show him that you are changing and he might just make changes himself.

FWIW, I do think that if you wait until there is nothing stressful before discussing serious issues, you'll never get around to them. There will always be something that needs attention. It's like owning a house; something always needs repair, painting or cleaning. But a marriage is the same way; something always needs to be addressed.

Keep up the good work!

Mark
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 07/23/07 11:18 PM

Given the current financial situation you have, it would appear that husband is using his noodle. Focus on first making sure food and shelter is taken care of, then worry about the rest. Based on what you have already done, he isn't much worried about you bailing on him, which, in my opinion, is a huge surprise to him.

Larry
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/24/07 03:06 AM
Thanks, everyone. I will be offline for a little bit. We are leaving for my old place tomorrow night so he can help me move out. He's taking his one week vacation time. There is another computer at the house, so I might be online but it depends on when we pack up that computer. Otherwise, I'll be back on in August when we come back here. Later!
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 07/24/07 03:27 AM
Aph,

I'm impressed by your progress. And I'm still praying for you. Hope I'm not too late with these greetings....I've been reading but not posting since so many more knowledgeable folks have been sharing insights with you.

At least you'll see this sooner or later.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/27/07 07:32 PM
thanks, Ace.

UPDATE: affection is back. Why so soon? I have no idea.
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 07/27/07 07:53 PM
Quote
UPDATE: affection is back. Why so soon? I have no idea.


He's probably been waiting a very long time for this honesty from you.

People who love someone who is being unfaithful always know somewhere in their hearts, and would give their eye teeth to hear the truth from their spouse. And that you are determined to build this marriage into something special. It probably means a great deal to him.

It might fascilate for awhile though, until it all becomes more real to him. Until he can trust that it is for real and lasting.
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I finally told him directly - 07/27/07 08:30 PM
Ana:

Slowly but surely, the M returns.

Keep working!

LG
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/03/07 01:22 AM
Hi all,

We're back in town but not settled yet. The extended stay hotel we had reservations for lost our reservation and there is a big Harley Davidson convention around here. So we're moving around a bit until we find something longer term. I was hoping to have my computer all set up, but for now I'm using the public library machines.

Anyway, as for my husband...things seem almost normal. He definitely seems happier, so weaver, you are probably right. I wish now that I had known that he knew. I would have quit sooner.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 08/03/07 03:33 AM
Aphaeresis,

Good to hear from you and glad it seems to be going well right now.

Still a long way to go, but perhaps the two of you can begin working together. Many hands make light work...

Good luck in the housing search. That has to be hard with kids.

Keep us up to date, OK?

Mark
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/03/07 03:44 AM
Hi Aph,

Quote
I wish now that I had known that he knew. I would have quit sooner.


What a lesson to learn the hard way, eh? Guess you can qualify your experience as a 'character-building' process!

Glad you're back...I've been praying for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Acey
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/09/07 11:21 PM
Update - we ended up having to go to a camp site for a week! The heat has been awful, although we've gotten away to public libraries and other places with AC for a while during the day or just sat in the car with the AC running. Fortunately, we'll be in a long-term stay weekly hotel tomorrow night.

Not much privacy in a tent with the kids around, but we've had lots of family time and that's been going well.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: I finally told him directly - 08/09/07 11:39 PM
Hi Aph. Glad to see your post.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/10/07 12:27 AM
Hi Aph,

Like Big K, I've been wondering about you. So glad you're able to seek refuge in the public libraries.....and get online occasionally.

But it's even greater that things are 'going well' with the family.

Like I said "character building" .....and it sound like "memory making" as well. Sometimes it may be hard to fathom it, but one day you'll look back and laugh. Keep us posted!

Ace
Posted By: bobelina Re: I finally told him directly - 08/11/07 01:02 PM
Hope things are well for you. You've been a big help to me and a challanger/instigator !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I will try to read up on your post.
BoB
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/13/07 12:07 AM
Hi all,

We finally found a semi-permanent home. There is even a possibility that the rules for contract workers could be changed and maybe he could stay on beyond October. We'll see. Other than that, things are stable, but nothing new to report.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/13/07 12:12 AM
Hey Aph,

Thanks for checking in. Hope things settle down for you soon.

We were semi-homeless for 8 weeks during a stint of 5 moves in 4 years.....poor DS couldn't even tell any new friends where he lived b/c he didn't know which friend/relative/hotelroom we might be staying at that night.

It will get better, I'm sure but it sounds like things are progressing quite nicely.

Keep up the great efforts and also keep us posted.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/14/07 03:16 AM
Hi all,

I mentioned to him that I was reading some marriage books and wanted to share some things with him. He reminded me that he said before we needed to talk without interruption for about an hour first. We just haven't had any privacy lately. I can get a friend to babysit, but not till next week. But at least there's that. So I have to wait.

So tonight I'm rather depressed. I don't know if it's because I'm worried about what he'll say, that I'm upset we can't just hurry up and get it over with, or if it's just one of those drops in serotonin I get sometimes and I'll wake up just fine. He's started playing that game again, so I used my free account and played with him earlier tonight. I wish he had just quit, though. I have no idea who his friends are on there or if any of them were ever a problem. But then again, probably they weren't or they would have shown up in emails. Oh well..everyone's asleep, so I'm off to play a game I actually like.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 08/14/07 11:52 AM
Aphaeresis,

Hang in there! We're still here when you need us.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/15/07 06:34 PM
Seems his friends don't hang out on that game anymore anyway. I think I was worried for nothing. Feel better today.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 08/15/07 07:52 PM
Aphaeresis ,

Worrying is like wishing for what we don't want to happen.

Keep working...

Glad things seem brighter today. Give it time and don't give up.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/20/07 03:46 AM
Okay, we had our big talk today, but it wasn't what I expected. We barely talked about my affairs at all. When I brought it up, he said he hasn't even begun to process that yet. At one point he did bring it up, and the fact that he wanted to have one, as an argument that our marriage can't be saved. I argued that others have been saved under similar circumstanced.

But he had other things to complain about. One, my son (from a previous relationship, age 11) has migraines that used to be associated with violent outbursts before we found the right medication for him. Now that we found the right one and he's getting better, he's starting puberty and my husband is afraid that will mess up his medication and he'll get violent again and possibly hurt our daughter (age 7). There was one time that he pushed her off a chair and she ended up in the ER with a big bump on her head, but fortunately she was fine in a few days. But he says if anything like that happens again he's filing papers for divorce and sole custody of our daughter (which is completely ridiculous because he can't cook and can never take care of her without asking me for help! Not to mention she's extremely clingy with me and would be miserable.) I think he's being entirely unfair to make a big deal of this now when we finally have his symptoms under control. I also wonder if he even loves our son at all (he's raised him since age 1 and a half, no other father figure) to just give up on him like that. So I have to wonder if I want to stay married to a man who may not be able to love all my kids. I'd like to think, though, that he's just worried about our daughter or maybe even using this as an excuse.

He also gave me some meaningless babble about not sharing a vision for the future...but then I told him my vision of the future depends on our circumstances and what we decide as a family because a married person can't just set a course all on their own without considering everyone else involved (spouse, kids).

Oh, and Larry was right about him thinking I married him for money. He said I'd be happier if we got divorced and I went on welfare. (Apparently single women have an easier time getting it.) Not that he was rich or anything when we met. I feel like smacking him for that. I thought he knew me better than that. It's a huge insult to me, but I just told him our marriage doesn't hinge on how much money he makes. And that I've been poor before, I could do it again.

Other things he said was his life is over (because of the job situation), I'm trying too hard to save the marriage, this marriage is like a punishment to him, there is no hope of it getting any better, I'm no fun to be with anymore because the kids are always around and when they aren't around he's thinking about the elephants in the room, and that he's tried to motivate himself to try to make things work but the only reason he can think of is our daughter.

At the time, I figured he was doing everything he could to push me away to make sure I really did want to stay, that he's pulling his usual divorce threat strategy and that if he really wanted out, he'd be out already. Plus, all his friends say he's a lot happier now that I'm here, he seems happier to me even though he claims we never have fun together (then later conceeded that some times have been more fun than others) and he's been much more affectionate lately and not because I'm initiating because a lot of the time I'm not. So I operated on those assumptions and things went ok. He did say some things that indicating he's not actually going to bail right now. He even said he'd visit the boards later - just not right now.

But then later I thought about this some more. If he's really that miserable, maybe I should let him go. Why do I want to chase someone who has no interest in me? I can understand why a man in my situation might want to. Men normally pursue anyway, that's their thing. As long as it doesn't become stalkerish, it's usually considered romantic. A woman fighting to stay with a reluctant man just seems pathetic. And if he's staying for the kids, she's trapping him. I want to feel like I'm doing everything I can to save the marriage but at what point do I decide that all I'm doing is throwing away my self-respect for nothing?

I'm really confused by all this. If he thinks I'm really that horrible, why doesn't he just go? And if he doesn't want to go, why is he ****** bent on convincing me our marriage is a hopeless case?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 08/20/07 04:24 AM
Aph,

If he had no interest in you, he'd be gone. If he didn't want to try to make it work, he has ample reasons to be gone. If he has nothing left in the way of feelings for you...Isn't that what MB is all about, rebuilding those feelings.

What the decision has to be is not stay or go because of what IS, but stay or go because of what MIGHT BE in the future. Remember that feelings are only about the present, not the future, since feelings can and do change all the time.

Love Bank Deposits!

Mark
Posted By: Gimble Re: I finally told him directly - 08/20/07 12:25 PM
Quote
.....
But then later I thought about this some more. If he's really that miserable, maybe I should let him go. Why do I want to chase someone who has no interest in me? I can understand why a man in my situation might want to. Men normally pursue anyway, that's their thing. As long as it doesn't become stalkerish, it's usually considered romantic. A woman fighting to stay with a reluctant man just seems pathetic. And if he's staying for the kids, she's trapping him. I want to feel like I'm doing everything I can to save the marriage but at what point do I decide that all I'm doing is throwing away my self-respect for nothing?

I'm really confused by all this. If he thinks I'm really that horrible, why doesn't he just go? And if he doesn't want to go, why is he ****** bent on convincing me our marriage is a hopeless case?

YOU threw away his self respect that was at least somewhat rooted in his pride and trust in you.

With your attitude regarding the disposable nature of your relationship, why in the world would you expect him to chase you? Given your current circumstance, what makes you so wonderful to have?

If you want this man back, and the relationship, I strongly suggest you learn how to pursue, and why it is the right thing to do at this time. There is no time, logic, or reason to play princess. You lost that status a good while back.

All the best,
Gimble
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I finally told him directly - 08/20/07 01:20 PM
Ana:

Your H has always been on the run somewhat from you. Just as you have.

Your committment to this M is new turf for him. He needs to sort it out.

His comment about taking your DD away in the divorce is particularly cruel, and designed to kick you where it hurts the most, but is something to look into further on your part. Is your DS at little bit out of control? You mention the meds he is on, and if H is concerned about your DS and puberty, that is a valid concern. My son is 14, and I am carrying the brunt of his issues now. He is a boy, and I was one once, so I can relate to my son in different way than when he was younger. That MAY be one of your H fears. Address that...

And NOT talking about the A's? And talking about other aspects? Then THAT is what he is concerned about. HE is telegraphing to you his boundaries. Be ready to have them enforced if you backslide. H may come to the point that he wants to talk about the particular details about the A's. He may not. Each person has the right to determine what amount of Info they need. IF your H KNOWS that you will answer any question he might have about it, then, he may not need to know anything else.

Remember what it takes to stay on this path. Radical Honesty. Your H isn't used to it, and he may never get it, but if you practice it, and act accordingly, then you have a great shot a making this thing work.

LG
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 06:37 AM
Hi Aph,

Just wanted to stop in and encourage you. The guys are giving you insights which could (or may not) be from your H's perspective. But it may seem different from what we gals might think.

Quote
Each person has the right to determine what amount of Info they need.

I am a detail person, my H is not. I need the details to gain full comprehension, my H does not. If I were the WS, I would expect my H to want to ask ask ask. He would not.

After all the triggers I self-concocted, I wish I had quit asking about details way before I did.

It's not wrong, just different. Same with the timing. If I were in your shoes, I might perceive your H's actions to be indifferent. But if I had caused the breach, I would definitely pursue him.

I agree with Mark and Gimble and LG.....show him you value him....it will build up your account in his love bank.

Keep being honest, own your stuff and focus on solutions if you truly want to work to save your marriage.

Keep us posted, Aph.....we're rooting for you.

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mr. Goodstuff Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 01:10 PM
Hmmmm,

For someone who did not want to discuss the affair it seems to me that that was all that was discussed. It is ALL about the affair, even when he claims it is not.

His arguments to leave or questioning your commitment to the marriage are a smoke screen to see if you are for real. Additionally, he makes such arguments to see how you will defend them. I suspect that your husband is damaged very deeply from years of destructive practices in the marriage, some his fault, some your fault. The fact that you sought comfort and sex from other men is a huge blow to his self-worth. It seems to be evident in most every comment he makes regarding your future together.

His questions to you have caused you to doubt your resolve to commit to him. It seems that he knows how to push your buttons as you have caused yourself to become angry and resentful over his comments and you now wonder if you should just give up.

Be aware, RECOVERY IS NOT FOR SISSIES. It takes a strong will and great fortitude to stay the course. Although this post is written to you, this warning applies equally to him although he does not read like someone who is willing to expose himself to potential harm again, at least not without some assurance that you are for real.

Note how your husband feels that his future is hopeless. That sense of hopelessness seems to have extended to you and it shows. How do you think he perceives that? It will take a huge effort from you to convince him that you value him and your relationship with him. I am not sure you are at that point. If you are able to convince him that you DO value him, then you will begin to see changes in him, for the better.

You ask the question that if your husband thinks you are so horrible why doesn’t he just go. He asks such a question because he was damaged by YOUR decisions. You did a horrible thing, I am sure your realize this. But are you a horrible person? The answer to that depends on “who you are today and who you will be tomorrow”. He does not know the answer to that and it is the answer that matter most, especially to him and if he should stay in the marriage with you.

Where many betrayed spouses might fight to save their marriage your husband is not cut from that mold. I might think that he will let you go and let the marriage end rather than possibly chase a hopeless cause. The burden of proof falls squarely on your shoulders; it is you who must convince him that you are committed towards recovery, that you value him, that you regret your poor choices and that you are ready to love again.

Perhaps he will come, and perhaps not. Are you ready to take the plunge?

Mr. G
Posted By: ForeverHers Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 01:55 PM
Quote
But then later I thought about this some more. If he's really that miserable, maybe I should let him go. Why do I want to chase someone who has no interest in me? I can understand why a man in my situation might want to. Men normally pursue anyway, that's their thing. As long as it doesn't become stalkerish, it's usually considered romantic. A woman fighting to stay with a reluctant man just seems pathetic. And if he's staying for the kids, she's trapping him. I want to feel like I'm doing everything I can to save the marriage but at what point do I decide that all I'm doing is throwing away my self-respect for nothing?

I'm really confused by all this. If he thinks I'm really that horrible, why doesn't he just go? And if he doesn't want to go, why is he ****** bent on convincing me our marriage is a hopeless case?



Aph, you already know the answers to these questions. You both start from the same position and that is no different that what a LOT of people do. We've touched on this stuff before and you've rejected it out of hand, so there is little point in rehashing old ground. So let me simply "sum it up" simply. If you are a mind to, give it some serious thought as to how it applies to both of you, and how it governs your reactions and interpretations.

"ME centric world."

At the center of your "world" is SELF. Everything emanates from, and is evaluated in terms of, how it "benefits or hinders" me from getting or doing what I want.

Go back to your SecHum beliefs and discuss each of them with your husband and how they apply not just in general, but specifically to each of you and your marriage.

Aph, you've just had the "opening round" in recovery efforts, and already you're entertaining ideas that "it might not be worth fighting for." If it's not, then leave, and leave NOW. If it is, then tighten your corset, cinch up your garter, suck it up, and COMMIT to the long haul, even if the ultimate result is that HE decides to leave. It IS his choice, and you have remember that. But if you "waiver" in your commitment to him and to the marriage, you will send a clear message that you are only there for YOU and not for HIM. That message, if heard and believed, WILL end your marriage even if you both would like it to survive. At best, you may both reach a point where you each, individually, decide that being married is in "MY" best interest, and you'll be married, but you won't be married other than legally and out of convenience.

Good luck, and CHOOSE, all in or all out.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 07:18 PM
First, thank you all.

Gimble,

Quote
Given your current circumstance, what makes you so wonderful to have?

Obviously he thinks there must be something or he'd be gone already. If I didn't believe that, I'd be gone. See my response to FH below for why.

FH,

You miss the point. Because I love him, I don't want him to be miserable. He says this marriage is a punishment to him and implies he could never be happy
with me. If I took him at his word, the loving thing would be to let him go and let him find happiness without me even if it would make ME miserable.
Just like the old saying - if you love something, set it free..if it doesn't come back it was never yours. However, if I can't take him at his word because
he is being defensive or testing me (as Mr. Goodstuff suggested) - then in that case setting him free is not what he wants or what would make him happy.


lousygolfer,

My son is definitely not out of control. He's polite and well behaved most of the time. He does have a history of
ocassional violent outbursts with migraines. My mother has epilepsy, and we've suspected seizures although none have shown up on tests. (That doesn't necessarily
prove he's not having them, though.) So of course his behavior has been a concern, but it is medically caused, apparently controlled by medication at long last,
and I don't think my husband is taking the medical aspect seriously enough. He's done this before with my own illnesses. I was suffering from undiagnosed
sleep apnea at one time and we started having marital problems because he thought I was being lazy! He even seemed to convince our first marriage counselor
of that. But then I had a sleep study which proved without a doubt that my sleep apnea was very serious and my behavior changed completely shortly after
starting treatment. I don't think my husband has enough understanding of people suffering from medical conditions that affect their behavior. It's very
frustrating to me.

Mr. Goodstuff,

I think you've cleared everything up - thank you. If he's testing me, that would definitely explain all the inconsistencies in what he says vs. what he does.
It also means I need to watch what he does carefully and not let his negative, pessimistic comments about our marriage rub off on me. And based on what he's
doing, and not what he's saying, I think I'm doing better than he will admit to me.
Posted By: Gimble Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 07:38 PM
Hi, Aphaeresis.

I think that if you study a bit more about how men judge worth, you may find that it is not rooted in emotion at the same level that a woman would include emotional attachment as a variable.

All the best,
Gimble
Posted By: Owl Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 07:39 PM
I think he's likely CURRENTLY engaged in some kind of affair himself.

I see where you'd mentioned he said he'd LIKE to be in one.

The sheer fog that's coming out of him makes me suspect he's ALREADY in one.

Nothing personal, Aph. Just what it sounds like to me.
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 08:10 PM
Quote
I think you've cleared everything up - thank you. If he's testing me, that would definitely explain all the inconsistencies in what he says vs. what he does.
It also means I need to watch what he does carefully and not let his negative, pessimistic comments about our marriage rub off on me. And based on what he's
doing, and not what he's saying, I think I'm doing better than he will admit to me.


Aph,

You need to do what every single person on this planet at some time or another must do.

Stand by your values. But first you must determine what your values are.

If marriage and family are of your highest values, than do what you need to save them. You do not get your cue from what other people do. You do not set your value's or course of action on another person (even your spouse's) current reaction, non-reaction, or actions.

Do you value this marriage? Do you value the sancity of family? Do you want your already traumitized children to have to deal with divorce and the destruction of their already battered parents? Step parents? Boyfriends, girlfriends?

Fight for this marriage and do what you need to do.

You are now entering into the world of BS's and Plan A. In reverse. Why? Because you are the one who wants to save the marriage. So what? If it weren't you, it would be your husband fighting for you and the marriage.

Be thankful it is you, because you are strong and you have the desire. If left up to your husband in his current state, your marriage wouldn't have a fighting chance.
Posted By: ForeverHers Re: I finally told him directly - 08/21/07 11:23 PM
Quote
FH,

You miss the point. Because I love him, I don't want him to be miserable. He says this marriage is a punishment to him and implies he could never be happy
with me. If I took him at his word, the loving thing would be to let him go and let him find happiness without me even if it would make ME miserable.
Just like the old saying - if you love something, set it free..if it doesn't come back it was never yours. However, if I can't take him at his word because
he is being defensive or testing me (as Mr. Goodstuff suggested) - then in that case setting him free is not what he wants or what would make him happy.


Well, perhaps I am missing the point, but I don't think so. I do think you are evaluating through your own lens, though. That cliche for example, I won't do it, but it can have holes a mile wide poked in it. What is really happening with that cliche is "rationalization."

You see, the "difference" in perspective is the concept that marriage is a covenant, and I know you don't see it that way. You see it more as a "convenience" that can be discarded when it is no longer convenient. Now before you get your hackles up over that statement, consider whether or not marriage IS a sacred covenant that is intended for life, or whether it is just a convenient arrangement so long as the couple "feels like it." The "sanctity of marriage" question has lot to do with this conception of what marriage IS. Obviously, without God and without what God has said marriage is, that leaves each individual to decide for themselves, and leaves the door wide open to "disposable marriages," most conveniently exemplified in alleged "no fault" divorces. Once the "shine" has worn off, and marriage becomes both a commitment and work, the "easy out" path becomes more attractive.

That is precisely why I have been saying to you, COMMIT. Get in the "fight" 100% or get out. Having committed adultery yourself, it really does not matter if your husband is, or is not, having an affair. If YOU want to remain married to him, you have to give him all the reasons why he should remain married and no reasons to believe you are not now 100% invested in the marriage.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/23/07 12:43 AM
FH,

Quote
You see, the "difference" in perspective is the concept that marriage is a covenant, and I know you don't see it that way. You see it more as a "convenience" that can be discarded when it is no longer convenient. Now before you get your hackles up over that statement, consider whether or not marriage IS a sacred covenant that is intended for life, or whether it is just a convenient arrangement so long as the couple "feels like it." The "sanctity of marriage" question has lot to do with this conception of what marriage IS. Obviously, without God and without what God has said marriage is, that leaves each individual to decide for themselves, and leaves the door wide open to "disposable marriages," most conveniently exemplified in alleged "no fault" divorces. Once the "shine" has worn off, and marriage becomes both a commitment and work, the "easy out" path becomes more attractive.

You really don't have a clue what I think of marriage because you won't let go of your preconceived notion of secular people. But whatever - your prejudice is your problem, not mine.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/23/07 02:17 AM

Be comfortable with him. Express your appreciation for who he is. Express your appreciation for who he is as part of a whole family. Express your gladness that you have the family and that it includes him. Express the simple fact that he is vital and important to the family and you.

And don't give up.

Er, just a bit of update. Wife here has decided that another child would be a good thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now it isn't going to happen. I don't want us to be spread so thin that we have children raising children, but the thought is very, very, very, uh, nice.

Now translate that to his expression that he had thought about another child. Go by what he does, not always what he says. He talks his insecurities and acts his intent.

Larry
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/27/07 08:37 PM
Hey Aph,

How's it going?

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/29/07 08:43 PM
Thanks, Larry. And glad to hear things are going so well with you!

Owl, I really don't think so. He's here all the time now except when he's at work and it's not like he's been working late or anything like that. Even when he's on the computer he's either looking for work or playing his game, but then I usually play with him these days.

Ace,

Things are progressing nicely. We kinda-sorta started having sex again, and I say kinda-sorta because we're trying to work around his physical problem.

Also, he's worried about not having found a job yet. He got word that his contract ends the end of September. Money is tight and I had to ditch my plans to look for work for myself because the schools here are terrible, there are no charter schools and we can't afford private schools so I have to homeschool the kids. And when I say terrible I don't just mean not up to my standards, I mean the district scores just slightly higher than the worst district in the nation. Unfortunately, housing in the good districts is too expensive right now. And that is why I always say school funding should NOT be tied to property taxes, but I digress.

So needless to say I'm exhausted all the time, but part of that is I ran out of one of my meds. I finally got a new doctor and got my prescriptions written so I should be back to normal in a few days. And there are inclusive homeschooling groups around here and I've been looking into socialization options.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 08/29/07 08:46 PM
Hi Aph,

Glad things are progressing. Hope the schooling situation works out with your options.

Sooooo good to hear from you. How old are your kids?

Ace
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 08/29/07 08:57 PM
Aph,

Good to hear from you and glad things are looking up.

Keep workin' at it.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 09/09/07 04:32 AM
Thanks Ace and Mark.

My son is 11 (12 in December) and my daughter is 7 (8 in November.)
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 09/09/07 04:24 PM
Hey Aph,

So did you find an alternative or are you homeschooling? How are the job prospects?

Glad things are working out somewhat. Have you both disclosed everything to each other now....well...as far as you know, at least?

Sorry for 20 questions.....I do care and hope for the best for your family.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 09/13/07 02:27 AM
Hi Ace,

As far as I know, but he hasn't wanted any specific details from me.

Turns out, there is a state law that says I can only send my kids to a charter school in my own district, and our district has no charter schools. So I am homeschooling them. It's going okay, but it's difficult getting cooperation from the 7-year-old <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> She was an angel in public school of course, but she knows that unlike a professional teacher I'm going to love her no matter how bad she behaves, so there's no need to impress me.

And I still haven't found any social outlets for them, but there's just a few weeks before my husband's job here ends anyway. So far he hasn't found a replacement job, but both his boss and someone else said they'd hire him over the mandatory 3-month absence is over. So, worst case scenario is that we live on his unemployment compensation for 3 months (plus whatever work I can get IF we end up in a place with good public schools), perhaps staying with family.

As for things between my husband and me, things are positive - no big changes from a few weeks ago.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 09/13/07 03:13 AM
Aph,

[color:"blue"]"As for things between my husband and me, things are positive - no big changes from a few weeks ago."[/color]

So glad to hear that things are positive. I'll bet it's easier now that you're all together in one place, even if it isn't where you'd like to be.

Keep us posted, OK? A lot of people here care about what happens to you.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 09/14/07 05:53 AM
update - we had a bit of a tiff tonight. I know I didn't handle it well, but I'm not sure what I should have done or said, so maybe some of you can give me some suggestions.

One warning, though - don't bother if you're pro-spanking. I don't want to hear it. (Oh, and that's in reference to child-rearing, not kinky sex - ha, ha.)

Our 7-year-old has an infection for which she was prescribed anti-biotics. She hates taking them. She refuses to take pills, so we give her liquid medicine. We even have it flavored, but she still makes a whole big production out of having to take it. What I mean by that is she'll refuse to take it, then make excuses, then stall for time, then cry, and I sort of alternate between reasoning, comforting and threatening to pour it down her throat if she won't take it voluntarily. Sometimes it takes up to 20 minutes. (When she was younger, she used to cry so much she'd make herself vomit. So I have to be careful not to get her to that level of upset.)

Sometimes she gets more cooperative if my husband says, ____, do what your mother says! But mostly he'll only say it if I ask him to. Same as tonight. Plus, he was complaining that he wanted to go to bed and whining to me about how long it was taking. This was extremely annoying because I was already under stress dealing with her and I have to hear him whine too. I suggested he help me instead of criticizing (after all, she's his daughter, too!) but as usual his only answer was "just spank her" which is completely stupid because the very few times he has spanked her she just screams her bloody head off (and it was her noisiness he was complaining about in the first place!) Plus, I don't think it's right anyway. Then he complains that I ask for his advice and get mad at him when he gives it, and I said well you never have anything productive to suggest.

Well, "never" is not quite true except of course at the moment when he's complaining. But generally, he criticizes and has no viable alternative for me to follow. He never reads any childcare books - I do all that. My thinking is that he should either help in a productive way or stop complaining. It's not like I go down to his job, tell him he's doing it all wrong and then refuse to help him find a better way and say, oh just slap some people around a bit - that'll work!

So anyway I got annoyed I told him I think sometimes you say that just to annoy me. DJ, I know, but it just drives me crazy when he acts like that. Quite truthfully, it's far more bothersome to me than my daughter's behavior at medicine-taking time. But what to do?
Posted By: ManInMotion Re: I finally told him directly - 09/14/07 01:43 PM
Well, I'm pro-spanking, but under very specific conditions. I must have spanked one of my daughters about three times in her life, and the other I've never spanked at all. What I've found that an approach that you use for one child is probably not going to work for another, and you basically need to work out the best approach to use.

Your situation however sounds quite similar to what mine used to be like - my FWW and I had huge arguments over how to "bring up" our kids, and it caused serious problems in our M, and she refused to accept anything else but her way of doing things, and eventually I simply withdrew as much as I could to avoid confrontation - which she of course interpreted as me not being willing to help. I was willing - just not willing to be forced to do things her way and her way alone.

Now we've both recognized the problem and we've talked about it, and I think things are getting better in that regard. Whenever there's a "confrontation" with regards to the children, we wait until a calm moment and talk about it, and discuss how we could have done things better. I think that approach is paying off, and she knows now that she'll get more cooperation from me if she doesn't demand that things be done her way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 09/14/07 02:51 PM
I'm pro-spanking for outright rebellion and defiancy...which your child seemed NOT to be.

7? I'd make it a game of sorts.....create an imaginary scenario where the object (meds) were a way to defeat the 'other team'......stretchin here, Aph. sorry.

It is difficult, I know.

Ace

PS. Only spanked our son 1 time cuz that's all it took. Our defiant daughter.....uhhhhh...different story, like MiM said! They're both happy healthy (and grateful) 20 years later.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 09/19/07 02:52 AM
MIM and Ace,

Thanks. I talked to him about it later and we worked it out. Fortunately, she's finished her medicine, too.

Now if we could only find time alone for a change!
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/02/07 12:42 AM
update: The company my husband is contracting for might hire him as an employee. He's not having luck finding work anyplace else. Unfortunately they are offering less than he's making now, which isn't enough with our current expenses. So what we want to do is rent (or hopefully rent-to-own) a place big enough so that we can get all our stuff out of storage and thus won't have to pay storage fees anymore. But to do that, we need to save up money (for moving expenses) and we've decided the only way to do that is if I take the kids and stay at my folk's for a few months. The schools are good there, so I could even help out by getting a job.

I'm not worried about my ex-bf living near there because I had already given him an NC letter a while ago. And I've been playing the online game my husband likes to play so that we can play each other while the kids and I are gone. I don't like it, but I don't see any other way out of this financial crisis.

Unfortunately, my anti-depressants seemed to have stopped working, which is one reason I haven't been on the boards much lately - either that or something else is wrong. Just had some tests done today and the doctor upped one of my meds and gave me an Rx for a muscle relaxer. The good news is I have absolutely no desire to cheat - but I have no desire to do much of anything but sleep anymore. But I'm not sad - just tired and everything hurts, esp. my head.

Hopefully by the time it's time to see my folks some of the meds will have kicked in. But it's just really annoying how I have to keep going back to the doctor to have my meds adjusted. Seems like I'm needing to do that more and more frequently the past few years. I feel bad for my husband because I can't do all the things I was doing before. I'm thinking of cooking tonight - if I don't fall asleep before then it'll be the first dinner in 2 weeks I've cooked myself. And he has to make all the runs to the store because last time I locked my keys inside the car and had to call roadside service. Seems to happen at least once every time I get sick. Oh well, I've complained long enough. Hope the rest of you are doing well.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 10/02/07 02:54 AM
Aphaeresis,

If you do have to live apart for a while, make it a short while and do everything in your power to stay connected. Phone calls, emails...all the ways lovers stay in touch. Don't let either of you miss the other so much you are willing to let someone else into your life. Don't let your missing of each other become resentment at being apart.

Keep us up to date.

Thanks so much for checking in. Many here care how you are doing.

Mark
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 10/02/07 03:55 AM
Hey Aph,

Glad you are together for now, even if you have to separate temporarily for a spell. In the end, I hope it will be worth it.

Like Mark said, many of us care how you're doing. Please keep us posted.

Your perseverance is very inspiring. Keep it up.

(Also, be thankful that meds are available and adjustible. Hopefully they'll get the dosages right soon.)

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/02/07 07:35 PM
Thanks, Mark and Ace. I agree we should do everything we can to keep in touch. And I am very grateful that I do have access to meds. I don't know what I'd do without them.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/04/07 07:57 PM
UPDATE:

I found out from the doctor's office that I have an underactive thyroid. No wonder I've been so tired! I'm really shocked, though, because I've had my thyroid tested many times, and it was always normal before. So now I'm taking another medicine. My nightstand is starting to look like a pharmacy.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 10/05/07 06:16 AM
Aph,

At least it is something to point toward as a reason for the way you were feeling. Do they have any idea what the cause might be?

It sounds like something that is treatable without a lot of adjustment of meds.

How are things going with the family? Are the kids doing OK?
Are you still planning to move in with your parents? Have you figured out how to spend as much time together as possible, as a family and just as importantly, just you and your husband?

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/06/07 01:53 AM
Mark,

Yeah in two weeks the kids and I are moving in with my parents for a few months until we save up enough money to move our things into one house and not pay storage fees anymore. My husband will return here after dropping us off (we only have one car) and work - probably as a permanent employee where he's already working. Without the rest of the family, he'll be able to find a much cheaper place to stay, which will give us time to save the money we need, esp. if I'm able to find a job while away.

We've had a ton of family time. No problem there.

It's impossible to get any privacy with the kids here, but some friends are going to pick them up and watch them for a couple of hours on Sunday. So at least we'll have that before we head out the following Friday. Maybe my parents will do the same the night before he has to come back here. They are very excited about seeing their grandkids.

Hypothyroidism, or under-active thyroid gland, can be caused by a number of things and can be genetic. My mom has it, but I've always tested normal until now. Only one medicine is to replace the thyroid hormone I'm missing. Another is a muscle relaxer to ease the pain of muscle spasms, but once the thyroid medicine starts working I won't need the muscle relaxer anymore. That's what I'm hoping, anyway.

The other three are for depression which can be caused by hypothyroidism - but I've had it on and off for years during periods when my thyroid tested normal. There are three because each med treats a different set of symptoms. I could go off them and replace it with a new pill that works on all symptoms, but that one is slow-acting and I can't go off the existing ones too suddenly so that would leave me with 2-3 months of feeling horribly miserable before the new one kicked in.

In retrospect, I think during times I was only mildly depressed (well enough to stay awake during the day) I was especially drawn to the excitement of an affair. They say oh it's only x minutes of pleasure but that's not true at all. It would put me in a better mood for about a week. Doing all the work to recreate that effect with my husband will take years, if it's even possible at all. So I suppose the only thing I can do with this information now is pay close attention to what's going on with me and see a doctor more often. I'll have to do that anyway because thyroid medication levels have to be monitored on a regular basis.
Posted By: MarriedForever Re: I finally told him directly - 10/06/07 02:52 AM
Quote
The other three are for depression which can be caused by hypothyroidism - but I've had it on and off for years during periods when my thyroid tested normal. There are three because each med treats a different set of symptoms. I could go off them and replace it with a new pill that works on all symptoms, but that one is slow-acting and I can't go off the existing ones too suddenly so that would leave me with 2-3 months of feeling horribly miserable before the new one kicked in.

Aph ~ most often, when someone has hypothyroidism, it does not happen overnight...

Your thryoid has probably been operating sub-optimally for years...even though the labs *looked* ok, they may not have been OPTIMAL. There is a big difference.

And eventually it became obvious on your labs. This is not uncommon.

[I have a MAJOR, can you say MAJOR, hormone defiiciency...not only is my thyroid operating sub-optimally, but ALL of my hormones are...I have Hypopituitarism (from a tumor on my pituitary gland)that has made it so that I must be on complete HRT, including thryoid meds)...now, this isn't really relevant except to tell you that hypothyroidism is not always SUPER easy to treat. If you don't feel that you are able to get back to feeling 100% normal, please do not just accept it; keep looking for answers.

[My condition is fairly uncommon...I pretty much self-diagnosed...so I have done an abnormal amount of research on hypopthyroidism (and other hormone deficiencies) than most...that is why I am sharing this info with you...not because I am a know-it-all, I am far from it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I do not want ANYONE to have to go through what I went through in order to start feeling *normal* again).

Good luck to you, I just wanted to encourage you to keep going if things do not seem *right*.

[P.S. When I was reading your story and how tired you were, I kept thinking to myself "Get your thyroid tested...GET YOUR THYROID TESTED!!!!"...it was almost comical when you said you found out you have Hypothyroidism!!!].
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 10/06/07 03:02 AM
Aph,

My wife had periods of depression and generally wild mood swings for years. She usually attributed it to what I was or was not doing at any given time. Her weight also fluctuated wildly by as much as thirty pounds in as little as 2 or three months. It got progressively worse until one night at a cosmetics party she looked in the mirror and noticed a swelling on the side of her neck just left of center.

She made an appointment with the doctor and by the time she saw him a week later it was the size of a chicken egg. Two days later the doctor took out the left lobe of her thyroid. She was retested every couple of months for about three years and never required any meds, but her mood swings stopped abruptly after that.

It's funny that she doesn't even recall having those mood swings now.

I used to dread this time of year because between early October and early December every year she would become depressed to the point of quitting her job more than once and would stay in a general funk until about a week before Christmas. Then about March 1st she would begin to feel like she was invincible and come up with all kinds of crazy things she would do, like start painting the living room three hours before we were due to have company. By May she was her "normal" moody self until the next fall. Everything smoothed out once she had the surgery.

I understand about the changes in meds as well. DD, now 32, has been on meds for depression and BPD since she was 11. We learned quickly that things as benign as eating too much candy could send her into a tail spin and drive us all nuts for a while. It took until she was 17 before she was able to function for long periods of time. By then, she had numerous adjustments and changes in her meds, some that made things worse rather than better.

I think it will be possible to recreate those feelings with your husband, but it will take spending more time together, meeting those pesky ENs and getting your own met as well in order to do that. It's really hard to do with kids and even harder when you seldom even see each other. All work and no play makes for less than romantic conditions.

Don't give up. You guys can make it and end up looking back on the dark days with a smile in your old age...

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/08/07 06:28 AM
MF and Mark, Thanks! Maybe once my thyroid is optimally healthy I won't need the anti-depressants. I guess time will tell.

And my husband and I finally got some time alone together and it went better than expected <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> What helped is that I told him not in the exact words, but something to the effect that I wanted to take lots of time and focus on the journey, not the destination. I think too often married sex gets into a rut because one or both people sets their brain on autopilot and so you're not really focused and it gets boring because you can definitely tell if the other person's on autopilot. But I'm thinking now that the best remedy is focused attention, not any particular new activity.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 10/09/07 04:47 AM
Quote
But I'm thinking now that the best remedy is focused attention, [color:"blue"] not any particular new activity. [/color]


Great insight, Aph. Glad things went better than expected during your alone time.

Ace
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 10/09/07 05:15 AM
Aph,

I too am glad that it went well for you guys.

I have often wondered why being married changes the dynamic between us so much. When we are courting we flirt, drop hints, sneak away for a kiss around the corner during a party...

When in an affair people do all of the same sorts of things. They flirt, send each other suggestive emails, drop hints about what is to come later...

But after we're married it seems like we always just end up lying in bed beside each other at the end of a long day wondering where the magic went and trying to figure out how our first move will be received if we even have the energy to try it.

What would happen if we did all those old courting and affair types of things with our spouse? ...Drop hints over breakfast, call and make lewd suggestions over lunch, flash the new underwear as we walk out the door for the party, slip each other a note about what could happen "later" while in public...

Gee, I wonder why affairs happen at all...

Like you said...The journey instead of the destination...

...Building the need before doing the deed...

Hard to do in 15 minutes after a day that began 18 hours earlier with the kids screaming and the dog barking to be let out and the laundry that didn't get finished last night still in the washer...("where's my socks?"..."I don't know; I don't wear 'em...Did you pay that bill?"..."What bill was that?"..."Stop throwing cereal at your sister."...)

Ain't it romantic?

Mark
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 10/09/07 05:55 AM
Quote
Like you said...The journey instead of the destination...

...Building the [color:"blue"] need[/color] before doing the [color:"blue"] deed...[/color]

Whoaaaah....this seems too profound for me!!!!

Ace
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 10/09/07 01:30 PM
Ace,

Why's that?

Mark
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 10/09/07 01:52 PM
Quote
pro·found

–adjective 1. penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding: a profound thinker.


Why's that?

How do you build the need without some sort of initial deed?

(First, it rhymes....catchy phrase, too, but the concept delves to new depths.)

I'm sure it's simple for you and Aph, but it's too deep for my pea brain....and I have to defer for the day so if I don't reply, it's not because I'm not interested...I just have some grant apps due today and this week.

Maybe I'll be able to check in tonight.

Thanks,

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/12/07 02:20 PM
update -

We're leaving today, so my next message won't be for a few days, probably. I asked him about coming to this site and his response was that I needed to focus on my health. I told him I didn't want to grow distant again, that we should take every opportunity to keep in touch. But he's not convinced there's anything left of the marriage to save because I've been sick on and off all through the marriage. I can't do everything I need to do to take care of and discipline the kids when I'm sick, I wouldn't be able to hold down a job in this condition and he can't afford not to work. I told him I'm convinced that this latest diagnosis explained everything and that I'll get better. He said I always get better for a few months and then get sick again and I need to see some specialists (once the new insurance kicks in)and figure out how to recover permanently so we can live a normal life. He's worried about the kids and thinks it would be good to stay with my folks who can help out and where the kids can go to school.

I asked him to at least promise me there would be no more looking for someone else - and he agreed without hesitation and I said me too.

There is a major, very reputable, research hospital near my folks' home that he thinks I should go to, so I said I would. And I'll still try to do what I can to stay connected to him regardless of what he says now.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 10/12/07 10:55 PM
Best wishes to you and your family, Aph. Keep us posted on your progress.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 10/14/07 09:19 PM
Thanks, Ace. The kids and I are at my parents house now. My husband is on his way back, and I'll be getting the kids in school and calling doctors tomorrow.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 11/10/07 11:21 PM
Update: Okay, now I also have chronic Lyme disease. Symptoms typcally come and go, so I could have had it for over a decade. That would explain why antidepressants only seem to work for a few months at a time.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 11/11/07 01:38 AM
Aph,

Good to hear from you...

Lyme disease, huh? That could explain a lot, I guess. How's the family? Are the kids adjusted to new surroundings?

How are you and H coping with being apart. (I'm assuming that hasn't changed since last time you were here.)

I know Ace would love to hear from you but she's away for the weekend with her H who is pitching this weekend.

Please check back from time to time and let us know how you're doing.

Mark
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: I finally told him directly - 11/11/07 06:18 AM
Hi Aph - good to see you posting again.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 11/12/07 04:06 AM
Thanks, all.

Mark, The kids are fine. They have their cousin here to play with, so they are thrilled about that.

With my husband it's complicated. He likes to remind me that the four of us under one roof doesn't work as long as I"m sick. I can't function as a wife and mother and He can't afford to take off work. He says nuclear families don't work when one person is chronically ill. I know in one sense he's right, but in another I feel abandoned. But he is making plans for future housing for all of us, so obviously he hasn't given up on me. I hate feeling like my marriage is dependent on my health, though.

Before I got here we'd been so much closer and made plans to talk online - we downloaded new software - and plans to play this game together he likes to play. Well, now he never seems to have time for any of it, and he only seems to want to talk about school districts, housing, money or the kids. Yet, he was the one who said his problem with me was I wasn't fun anymore. I know what he's doing -he's depressed that I'm gone and distancing himself from me - the exact opposite of what he should be doing, of course. We're supposed to talk online tonight but so far he isn't on yet. He's also freaking out over lack of money. He got cold toward me like that the last time we were apart but it was much less painful then because there was always someone else to turn to. (Not that I'm tempted now-- I'm too sick to bother with that.)

I dunno. Sometimes I really miss him a lot, and other times I think - I have enough problems to deal with trying to get healthy without having to deal with a difficult, high-maintenance husband. But some of that is the depression talking (a symptom of both Lyme and hypothyroid, unfortunately.) This weekend was especially bad, physically and mood-wise.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 11/12/07 02:36 PM
Aph,

I know almost nothing about Lyme. My wife did have a thyroid disorder related to hypothyroidism many years ago. Her mood swings were unbelievable. I'd leave for work with her sitting in a chair on the verge of tears over having to make a second pot of coffee and get home to find the living room half painted...the key word here being "half." She'd start a project, work on it to the exclusion of everything else usually till exhaustion overtook her and then never return to it even though it might be minutes from completion.

The hardest part for me was that she blamed her mood swings on others, usually me. Today she still repeats some of those lines when talking about that time, about how she was like she was because I did whatever and she really has no recollection of the mood swings at all. Half her thyroid was removed in 1982 and the difference was amazing. Even when she was moody and when she was pregnant again in 85, her cycle was pretty normal. She had ups and downs, but nothing like before her surgery.

The doctors never found anything related to her moodiness and depression. It was a lump that appeared on her neck that triggered the surgery. She was at a Mary Kay party with her sister and saw a shadow in the lighted makeup mirror. She called the doctor the next morning and by the time she got in to see him the lump was pretty big. She went into the hospital the next day and had surgery that afternoon.

It was after the surgery that the doctor and I talked about it and he asked if she had been moody or had mood swings recently. My laughter gave him an idea of what she had been like. For five years or so she had been either ready to run through walls or curled up in bed crying with little in between and often more than one cycle during the day. He told me to watch for the same kind of things in the future, but said she might never have any other problems. She had lab tests done weekly for six weeks, monthly for a year and yearly after that for about 5 years.

As for what else to do with your marriage, I don't know what to say. Just try to stay connected as best you can and wait for the day when you can be together. If it ever gets to the point that you just can't cope, come here for a pep talk or to vent. There are folks here who care what happens to you and your husband. Feel free to wail and rant any old time.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 11/14/07 03:44 AM
Mark,

Well I tried real hard not to take any of my moods out on him. He was usually upset most at what I wasn't doing, not on anything I did in particular.

Anyway, I talked to him on the phone last night. He is very stressed about the financial situation and worries about finding a new place for us. So at least now I know what I'm dealing with.
Posted By: familycomesfirst Re: I finally told him directly - 11/14/07 03:05 PM
Aph - It is so unfair of him to treat you like that about your illness. Isn't marriage supposed to be in "sickness and in health"?
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 11/14/07 07:42 PM
fcf, Well I think so too. On the other hand, he's right that he simply doesn't have the resources to take care of me right now, whereas my extended family does. My mom and sister are both home during the day and can help out with the kids after school if I just can't stay awake anymore. In the place we were before, the school district was so bad I had to homeschool the kids and that was completely exhausting, esp. after I got sick. And it wasn't good for them either. They didn't know any other kids and I often fell asleep after their studies and so my husband would come home, see me asleep and the kids watching tv. But now they are in school and I have some help. It sucks being apart but he has to work.

We are having a disagreement over email now because the bank balance is too low and he's blaming me (as usual, even though he eats out too much because he refuses to learn how to cook!). I hate when he does this, but I used restraint in my reply and told him to finish re-doing the budget. Hopefully he'll calm down Friday when he gets paid again, otherwise I may have to hunt him down and shoot him with a tranquilizer dart. It's hard to believe sometimes that I fell for him because he was so calm and easy-going.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 11/16/07 09:41 PM
Okay, potential fight was averted - no big deal. I think things are going better than I thought they were. I am momentarily feeling much better today as well. With Lyme there up and down days and it's not very predictable.

But I decided on days I'm feeling up to it, I'd do a few minutes of working out with stretching, 5-lbs. weights and light aerobics. I started today. In addition to losing weight, I'm also hoping a little muscle tone and flexibility will be of use on those days when all my muscles are stiff and sore. Of course I was careful not to overdo it. My motto is: no pain, no pain. No, that's not a typo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 11/16/07 10:47 PM
Wow, Aph.

First Rock begins to workout, then LA. I get back into it and now you too? We're gonna be a fit bunch if nothing else.

I agree with your motto for the most part, but then there are those days when it changes to "no more pain, please."


Glad you're feeling better today. I hope it becomes a trend and that it continues.

I'm also glad things look better...

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 03:44 AM
update - I must have been nuts to think I could start working out. The day I started was the day I finished.

Anyway, I'm reaching the end of my rope with my pig-headed husband. How long am I supposed to put up with his crap until I give up, anyway? I am doing everything I am supposed to do, and he is nothing but selfish and cold toward me.

While we're fighting about money because I need co-pays to take myself and kids to the doctors' he is going out to fancy restaurants 2-3 times a week and says he refuses to feel guilty about it because he's working overtime and deserves a "treat." I said it's not about what you deserve, it's about what we can afford! I've only gone out to eat once since I've been gone and my parents paid for that. He finally did get me more money but not before a huge fight. Then he gets on my case for not having a job. I said, what do I have to do -fall into a coma or be bleeding out my eyes before you finally get that I'm sick?

But that's not even what started it. What started it is that he said he hadn't read all my emails because he only checks email every 3-4 days. This from someone who works with computers all day! He always has some excuse why we can't talk about anything other than the kids or money. The cell phones are too expensive, I don't have time for online chat, I can't check for your messages because I'm working so much. Well gee...how long does it take to check his email when he gets home after work? I know he's not going to sleep right away because he never can right after work. And it's not like we haven't talked about that before. I told him I thought we should talk more, and he said he wanted to talk to me more too and that after our son's birthday (coming up this weekend) things at work would slow down. But to not even read the emails I sent him? It's not like I've sent him all that much.

And to top that off, the insurance card he gave me apparently doesn't cover prescriptions and I've been calling him all day to get the stupid numbers for the prescription card so I can get my Rxs filled. But he's not answering his phone.

I had sent him an email earlier saying there's got to be a compromise we can reach on these issues but of course he didn't answer it.

And you know I keep thinking back to conversations on here about how when I had casual sex I was somehow being "used" - but I never felt that way because I wasn't in love with them so they couldn't hurt me. I think back to the last few times I had sex with my husband and THAT is what makes me feel used. I feel absolutely disgusted. He just wanted someone to fulfill his need for domestic support and to be an incubator for his kids. The first time in our marriage I got sick and couldn't keep up with the dishes, we started having trouble - and that was BEFORE I started cheating. I'm starting to wonder now if the only feelings he ever had for me were part of the infatuation stage of falling in love - maybe he never reached the mature love stage. Maybe the reason he didn't seem to react all that much when I told him I cheated is because he doesn't really care, (other than not wanting to be known to other men as someone who gets cheated on.)

He is taking some steps that will reduce our monthly expenses starting next month, so maybe things will get better then, but if they don't I don't know how much more I can take.

And before someone asks am I doing things to be more lovable? I'm doing everything right. All my overtures are shut down or thrown in my face. I am getting nothing at all back from him. He's as cold as ice. Why am I doing this?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 04:21 AM
Aph,

I'm so sorry to hear of this turn for the worse. I wish there were some way for you two to be together more. If you look back on the short time you guys were together I think you'll see that things were looking up during that time. You had hope then...I think that is what it takes and why so many marriages fail when one or the other is away for long periods. Dr Harley's 15 hours per week is so important to maintaining those feelings for each other.

I wish I had some magic I could give you that would fix this, but alas, there isn't any.

Mark
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 04:39 AM
Aph - just wanted you to know I read your post. No advice I'm sorry.

(((Aph)))
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 05:18 AM
Mark,

I think it was going well because he had tried to find someone else, couldn't, missed sex and someone to clean up after him and I was there. Now I'm not there so he can't be bothered with me. None of it was real.

I think I'm going to encourage my daughter when she grows up to raise her kids with a platonic roommate. I just don't see any advantage of marriage for women. If I hadn't wanted kids, I honestly wouldn't have bothered trying to find someone.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 02:14 PM
Aph,

Quote
I think it was going well because he had tried to find someone else, couldn't, missed sex and someone to clean up after him and I was there. Now I'm not there so he can't be bothered with me. None of it was real.

That isn't my observation at all. When you and your H first got back together you did not have it easy, he was not being nice to you and you, from your posts, weren't having much sex either.

It was AFTER you had been working together on resolving issues, spending time together...had a date, just the two of you without the kids, that everything started to improve. As he dropped you off and I suggested you needed to spend as much time together as possible, you were upbeat, looking forward to working toward getting back into the same house and ready to face the world.

Now you are ready to throw in the towel and move on...The REAL difference...no time together. You can't meet his ENs and he can't meet your ENs if you are never spending any time together. Not possible...Dr Harley's UA, remember? PORH is the capstone; POJA is the keystone; ENs and the LB$ are the foundation...UA is the cornerstone, without UA the rest of it is just words on a page...

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 11:44 PM
Mark,

Well I was venting. I'm not making any decisions now. The thing is, we were apart when we first got involved (we met online) and that didn't stop us from forming a bond then. The difference is we looked forward to getting emails from each other every day and took every opportunity to chat online when we could. He would have never told me he was too busy working to read my emails back then, even if he had been working overtime. We even sent each other lyrics from songs we thought applied in some way to us or reminded us of the other. Now, if I wanted to do that, I'd be wasting my time because he wouldn't read it anyway.

Oh, btw, the prescription card problem got resolved. And when I sent him info about my doctor's appointment this afternoon I included a little info about Lyme disease in the hopes that educating him might help.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: I finally told him directly - 12/03/07 11:46 PM
Quote
Well I was venting.

Really? I'm shocked. LOL.

Glad you're feeling a little more even today Aph.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 12/04/07 12:25 AM
Aph,

Quote
Now, if I wanted to do that, I'd be wasting my time because he wouldn't read it anyway.

So do it anyway. He'll read it eventually and if you keep doing it, it might help...

OK. Time for Steve's rocks in the river analogy again...

You find yourself at the edge of a river and want to get across it. You throw a rock into the water and it vanishes beneath the waves, but you throw another and another and each one disappears below the surface. But you KNOW that the rocks aren't disappearing and have to be piling up, so you throw some more. You throw 499 of them and still nothing can be seen.

And then you throw the 500th rock and the tip becomes just barely visible above the surface of the water and now you have a start on building a bridge where none existed before...and you cross the river and get to the other side...

You do what YOU can do to reconnect.

You keep doing it until all hope is gone.

And then you do it some more.

And if you keep doing it, it DOES make a difference.

And one day, you can see the difference.

And it restores your hope and you go on...

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/04/07 11:55 AM
Okay, but what if instead of sinking, the rocks bounce off the bottom and hit you in the head?

Just kidding...I'll keep trying.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/07/07 03:42 AM
I'm stopping for now. He's just been so verbally abusive. I can't even say hello without him giving me crap. If he wants to be left alone, I'll leave him alone...I really don't need this right now. If he really loves me, he'll eventually contact me.
Posted By: ForeverHers Re: I finally told him directly - 12/07/07 08:10 AM
Quote
I'm stopping for now. He's just been so verbally abusive. I can't even say hello without him giving me crap. If he wants to be left alone, I'll leave him alone...I really don't need this right now. If he really loves me, he'll eventually contact me.


Aphaeresis - a long time ago I said to you that recovery was not going to be easy, or guaranteed.

Recovery often feels as though you are "carrying the load alone."

It IS your choice, but if YOU want to recover your marriage, then it is incumbent upon you to keep trying regardless of how he is responding.

It is NOT easy, it's just necessary....if that "desire" to recover your marriage is more than just a "desire," it's a commitment. You know the kind...."For better or for worse, in sickness and in health....until death do us part." The part that's NOT in there is the "until I no longer feel that I am loved."

Withdrawal and shutting down may SEEM like the easiest course of action, but it's not "recovery" action.

How serious are you? Your husband knows about your past choices, so what "choices" are you going to show him now?

Think about it.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/08/07 04:53 AM
FH and everyone,

Actually, he responded rather quickly. Of course, it was to try to fight with me so I used a disgusting amount of diplomacy to calm him down. But that's still better than him totally stonewalling me.

We're in nearly constant email communication now, a little about the kids health, and now a lot about the budget and how we're going to get through the holidays. (In case you're curious, we celebrate Winter Solstice, the first day of winter, which is the 22nd this year. My extended family celebrates Christmas, so what we worked out is that any presents I give to others will be opened on the 22nd, but all other presents will be opened on the 25th.)

But we're still back to discussing only money and the kids. That's what ex-spouses do, not current ones. I'm really at a loss here as to what to do about that.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 12/08/07 03:04 PM
Aph......I've been reading but haven't posted to your thread lately.....been having some challenges of my own but things are better now.

I have no words of advice except to say I am hoping for some sort of miracle (from any source) that will make it possible for you all to be together.

I know the detached feeling.......endured it for 32 years. Keep posting your updates and know that we care and will help however we can.

Like FH said, there are many choices involved. Finding the ones that line up with your desired future may seem impossible at times, but it can happen.

Ace

P.S. A few months ago, I sent an encouraging card to you at the same PO box address where I sent the Gottman book. Did you ever receive it? Just wondering.... it had no return addy on it.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 12/08/07 04:19 PM
Quote
But we're still back to discussing only money and the kids. That's what ex-spouses do, not current ones.

And that's what spouses who have nothing else in common because they are apart from each other for too long do as well. If you don't put any money into the bank, you can't write any checks when the bills come due. If you aren't making deposits, you have a balance of nothing.

The interesting thing is that if one person makes enough deposits, the other begins to make them too and pretty soon you're wealthy. But when you are both bankrupt and have nothing left, you can sit and watch it all go away as debts take their toll or you can earn and deposit what you can manage and save what's left until better days come around.

Aph, you understand what I'm saying. I know you do. You feel like you do, he feels like he does because you are not together. It doesn't matter who is at fault for you being apart or who seems to have given up first (who had the LB$ go negative first); all that matters is getting together in the same place long enough to let the feelings return.

Remember the date night you guys got when you were together last? Remember how upbeat and positive you felt? If not, go back a few pages and read it again yourself.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/08/07 09:05 PM
Ace, glad you got through those challenges okay. I got one card from you, thanks. If you sent another I haven't got it although mail is being forwarded to me from there now.

Mark, yeah I remember. That's why an apparent reversal was so disappointing. But at least working on the budget allows us to get closer to being able to afford living under one roof by summertime.

Speaking of the budget, I'm disturbed by his tendency to be more concerned with himself than his family. He was whining about not being able to go to the doctor but he only has allergies - the kids and I have more serious problems. And he's not losing any work, even working overtime, so it can't be that bad. I told him we're going because we need it and if he wants to go he should just refrain from eating out (something the kids and I never do anymore) and use the money he saves there for the copays. And he even suggested getting a cell phone with GPS that costs $200 more than the one without! I told him GPS is a nice toy, but hardly a necessity. I reacted calmly this time, but things like that really bother me.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/09/07 12:41 AM
Okay, he really does need a doctor and has been putting it off in favor of eating out. He's insane! He's got skin problems, which for most people might not be a big deal, but he had skin cancer several years ago. And he didn't bother telling me about this (his recent problem) until today! I told him he better go this week and tell me everything.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 12/09/07 02:56 PM
Quote
Ace, glad you got through those challenges okay. I got one card from you, thanks.


I only sent the one and now have no clue where that addy is.

But I pray for you often and just happened to find that card and thought of you last summer. Glad you got it.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/22/07 05:21 AM
Health update:

Turns out, in addition to Lyme disease, I also have a chronic respiratory infection. So now I have all new meds and I'm supposed to feel better in a month. I'm also off the antidepressants because my doctor said, "You're not depressed; you're tired!" I guess I'll let you all know how I am in a month.

Maritally, things are going as well as can be hoped right now. He's focused on getting himself a place that's a bit cheaper than the one he has now, so we can save some money.

Hope everyone has a good holiday!
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/31/07 09:18 AM
Update:

We've been talking more through email lately (even about stuff other than money), and we've started playing that online game he likes. All is going well, except of course that I wish he could be here.

He just moved out of the hotel and into an apartment with a (guy) roommate to save money. That should help a lot with our plans to move our stuff out of storage and get a decent sized place for all of us in about July.
Posted By: woundedgentleman Re: I finally told him directly - 12/31/07 04:04 PM
Aph,

Glad you're still posting and I'm glad to hear that you and H are talking. Working towards a shared goal (living under the same roof) can bring you closer together (relationally and literally), but if there were any way to accelerate the process, I would encourage it.

Wishing your family the best in 2008,

- WG
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 01/02/08 12:26 AM
Hi Aph.....true confession. I was talking about you on a new thread. I was asking BK if he remembered when he and I were the only ones posting to you when others thought you were a troll. I asked BK why he discerned that you were not:

Quote
I do remember Acey. I liked her honesty and her genuineness to me anyway.

Were your ears burning?

I agree with wounded gentleman:

Quote
Aph,

Glad you're still posting and I'm glad to hear that you and H are talking.

Thanks for updating us regularly, Aph. Wish I was in the financial position to help you guys get back under one roof today. That's one of my goals, though.....we discussed 'what would you do if you had unlimited time, money and resources' one day on the 20-90 Something Vacation Thread and helping folks like you (anonymously, of course) would be one of my first projects.

Hope the health and financial issues get resolved soon.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 01/07/08 05:47 AM
Thanks WG and Ace and BK if you're reading this!

Ace,

This board was, and to some extent still is, the only place where I can be completely honest, so it always seemed to me to be counterproductive to be anything else. You can't get away from a double life of lying and sneaking around by lying to make yourself look good on a board designed to help people get away from all that. These boards are great overall, don't get me wrong - there's just one thing, though. The unhealthiest thing about this board is that too many people expect waywards to lie or omit things to protect the feelings of bs's on the boards, but I think all that does is give bs's a false sense of reality. So when they see something offensive or threatening they just want to dismiss it as trolling instead of facing it and trying to understand. Just because it upsets you, doesn't mean it isn't true!
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: I finally told him directly - 01/07/08 05:58 AM
Hi Aph,

Hmm.

I don't think people expect WS's to be mindful of BS's feelings - I really don't. I sure don't expect people to lie - they only injure themselves if they do that and certainly this board is hard on waywards who don't wake up. But BS's get a hard time as well at times.

I am glad you stuck with us here anyway. I always had some confidence you were genuine and would make it as you seemed to be willing to put in the effort.
Posted By: _Ace_ Re: I finally told him directly - 01/09/08 12:30 PM
Quote
Just because it upsets you, doesn't mean it isn't true!

I know what you mean, Aph. Like BK, I'm glad you persevered. Thanks for keeping us posted on your progress.

Ace
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 01/31/08 08:18 PM
Hi all, everything's pretty much the same, maybe better. We're online a lot together, so that's good.

I had a question, though. Every once in a while I start wondering things like when was it did he sense something was wrong, did he suspect an affair before I told him and if so, when, how? But I know I can't bring these things up. He has to be the one to bring it up. But every once in a while I feel sad or angry that he didn't try to stop me - which I know is crazy because it was my own damn fault. So then I feel guilty for feeling angry. Is that normal? Maybe I'm just thinking too much!
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 01/31/08 08:49 PM
Quote
But I know I can't bring these things up.


Hi Aphaeresis, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why can't you bring these thimgs up?
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/03/08 03:01 PM
JosieJones,

Because he's the injured party (mostly) and it hurts him to talk about it. And he would refuse to talk about it, so I wouldn't be able to get any answers from him anyway.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/03/08 06:21 PM
Marriage Coaching - it's not complicated - but it does take concentrated effort on both your parts

Both of you really really need this sort of intervention. Your collective marriage skills are not up to par yet .... but they could be!
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 02/04/08 02:36 PM
I agree with Pep, Aph.

And if it were my marriage, I'd work on the best friends part of being married. It's frustrating to read your sitch sometimes because it seems to me that the friendship, the being able to talk about anything part of your marriage, left a long time ago. Most BS's want to talk about the affair, want to talk about the hurt...and here you are the one who wants to talk about it, but your H doesn't.

I could be wrong, and my thinking may be backwards from what marriage building experts might say, but...

It would break my heart if my H and I couldn't talk about something, and anything and everything. So if I were you, and I'm not, I'd be working on the becomming best friends part of a marriage...I'd treat it like a new R, where we were building into intimacy with friendship, openness and trust being the goal...and after that, the great SF part.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/22/08 01:55 PM
Update-

I asked him why he didn't initially believe me when I said I was sick. I still don't know, and he got upset that I was bringing up old unresolved issues. I said well how can we start resolving them if we don't talk about them? And I said I couldn't guarantee I'd never get sick again and would want him to cut me some slack if I did. I think having said that, I got my point across and this should be resolved even if he doesn't respond directly to that.

But then I realized that during the conversation he again brings up his ex-wife and why he divorced her. And I realized that he does that almost every time I say something he doesn't like. One of the things I miss about cheating is the complete absence of jealousy that I felt. As long as I wasn't faithful, I didn't have to expect him to think of only me or get upset that he wasn't. I didn't have to worry about what he was thinking or what he was doing. I didn't even have to think about it because anything I couldn't get from him I could get elsewhere. When you're monogamous, you have to raise the standards of what you're willing to put up with because it's too painful not to.

So I told him he can't keep comparing me to her every time I say something he doesn't like. That he's never made an honest attempt to get over her and I know this because he still won't get rid of her photos and letters. And I said when he acts like that I feel like spending time with someone who feels passionate about me and isn't comparing me to someone else. But that I was talking to him about it instead so I hope he realizes that this had to be said and that he'll say something constructive. Or something like that. We'll see what he says.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 12:00 AM
I think you are an interesting woman ....

Quote
One of the things I miss about cheating is the complete absence of jealousy that I felt. As long as I wasn't faithful, I didn't have to expect him to think of only me or get upset that he wasn't. I didn't have to worry about what he was thinking or what he was doing. I didn't even have to think about it because anything I couldn't get from him I could get elsewhere. When you're monogamous, you have to raise the standards of what you're willing to put up with because it's too painful not to.

.... you have low expectations about marriage (mull that over)

True intimacy frightens you (and you married a man matching your low expectations and fears of intimacy)
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 01:09 AM
and then, you take this step toward intimacy .....

Quote
So I told him he can't keep comparing me to her every time I say something he doesn't like. That he's never made an honest attempt to get over her and I know this because he still won't get rid of her photos and letters. And I said when he acts like that I feel like spending time with someone who feels passionate about me and isn't comparing me to someone else. But that I was talking to him about it instead so I hope he realizes that this had to be said and that he'll say something constructive. Or something like that. We'll see what he says.


good for you !
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:42 AM

Hi Aph :-)

Quote
.... you have low expectations about marriage (mull that over)

True intimacy frightens you (and you married a man matching your low expectations and fears of intimacy)

That is why Pep needs to hang around here. She brings a unique perspective and insight to the table. In this case, dead on - right?

Quote
So when they see something offensive or threatening they just want to dismiss it as trolling instead of facing it and trying to understand. Just because it upsets you, doesn't mean it isn't true!

Perceived reality. It is true and real for those so explaining (er, mostly), but that doesn't necessarily hit the reality button of the listener. We are all so good at cognitive dissonance, that one person's reality isn't always true and real for someone else. And reality changes as life experiences modify how we think and view stuff. We are what we eat.

Good to hear from you again. Keep in mind that God and Mom made him; it is unlikely that you can change who he is. He might decide to modify himself to some extent if it makes him more comfortable. ;-)

Larry
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:27 PM
Hi Pepperband and Larry,

How can I not have low expectations? The vast majority of marriages don't meet the high expectations society seems to set. And that includes the ones that last and don't end in divorce. If it hadn't been for my desire to raise kids, I wouldn't have bothered looking for a husband in the first place. But like I said, when you're monogamous you have to set the bar higher to avoid going crazy, and there are some things I just can't tolerate anymore. I don't think I"m afraid of intimacy so much as afraid of not having it returned. It kinda has to be a 2-way street to work.

I'm not so sure that my husband's problem is low expectations. It seems to be the opposite. I'm not supposed to be unpleasant for any reason whatsoever. His response to my last email was to say oh well it cuts both ways, he's not sure he wants to work things out and acting like this makes him want to be with someone else - so if we both want to be with other people why bother even trying. (But that's what he always says and has never filed any papers. Geez, has he never heard of the Boy Who Cried Wolf?)

I said the difference is that sometimes I HAVE to bring up unpleasant things to get them resolved and that at any rate, HE is the one who brought up the subject of his ex-wife in the first place. I said there is no functional marriage on the planet that involves two people never talking about anything unpleasant and that he doesn't have to melodramatically threaten divorce every time I bring up a hot topic or make a complaint. And that when I make a complaint, he should listen and try to address my complaint in a way that will make both of us happy.

Then I told him how much it hurts me when he says some of the things he does and the fact that he has those pics, and told him that my requests are reasonable and that I'd do the same for him if the situation were reversed. And I told him I think he's keeping the photos out of stubbornness but that I'm afraid sometimes it's more than that. I told him I'm trying very hard to set things right, but that I could use a little help from him.

So we'll see what he says, but it seems like every time I want him to do something his knee jerk reaction is always to say no to it. I'm always the one who has to change. There was one exception I can think of, but it took a counselor to tell him I was right first. sigh.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:33 PM
Quote
[color:"green"]Then I told him how much it hurts me when he says some of the things he does[/color] and the fact that he has those pics, and told him that my requests are reasonable and that I'd do the same for him if the situation were reversed. And[color:"red"] I told him I think he's keeping the photos out of stubbornness[/color] but that I'm afraid sometimes it's more than that. I told him I'm trying very hard to set things right, but that I could use a little help from him.


[color:"green"] step toward intimacy [/color]

[color:"red"] disrespectful judgement [/color]

When you take a step in & then a step out - the view does not change
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:35 PM
Quote
I'm always the one who has to change.


This makes you the most powerful force in the marriage.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:38 PM
PS

Quote
stubbornness


I suspect you and hubby are equally matched
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:40 PM
.... and
you are very interesting
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:40 PM
..... because you struggle with yourself so much
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:42 PM
this is my Burma Shave style of posting

how do you like it?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 03:47 PM
Quote
I don't think I"m afraid of intimacy so much as afraid of not having it returned. It kinda has to be a 2-way street to work.


This is just about universal - not unique to you

the 2-way street ~~~> you chose a man who is not skilled at intimacy
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:06 PM
Pepperband,

There are only two reasons why he'd hang onto that photo and stubbornness is the MOST respectful option I can think of. I gave you the short version. The long version I gave him is that I thought there were two reasons why he'd hang onto it - 1- stubbornness or not wanting to get rid of it just because I said he should, that it was my idea not his. 2- He's so in love with her that he can't part with it and he isn't capable of loving anyone else, including me.

If I was convinced it was #2, I'd be long gone. But I'm still somtimes afraid it could be 2, and I told him that, and I said this insecurity doesn't come out of nowhere, that it comes from decisions he's made and comments he still sometimes makes.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:18 PM
or maybe he is more sentimental than you know
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:26 PM
Do you enjoy reading somewhat difficult and challenging material?

If you do .... you might want to give David Schnarch a go....

Passionate Marriage

His subject appears to be about sex (and it is)
but the reality is this

Schnarch has enlightened me (and thousands of others) about the concept of "marriage gridlock" and entering the "crucible" of a relationship

Schnarch says:

"Once we realize that intimacy is not always soothing and often makes us feel insecure, it is clear why we back away from it."

when an intimate relationship comes up against a conflict of interests - it is a challenge to grow personally

if you have the courage to change - I challenge you to read Schnarch

no matter what happends to this marriage - you have come up against a personal challenge

what are you gonna do about it?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:31 PM
Do you have faith in yourself?
Do you believe you have the potential to function at a higher level?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:48 PM
"Loving is not for the weak, nor for those who have to be carefully kept, nor for the faint of heart."

"Love requires being steadfast through many difficulties."

"Marriage is where you build the strength to love and sooth yourself through the loss {death} of an irreplaceable life mate."

- Schnarch


You see .... the real risk of a deep and abiding love is this - you risk losing the love of your life if they die first.

THAT is a heartbreak we set ourselves up for when we are truely intimately in love.

My Dad - heartbroken because the love of his life, my Mom, died. But if you ask him if it was "worth it" ... he'd say "yes".

This is what holds most of us back from such intimacy.

It is not an easy road this sort of loving.
But, Oh! My! God!
It fills your spirit like nothing else can .... yet, it is a risk!

This level of intimacy requires integrity to stay and push through the crucible .... and many do not have the "what it takes" to stay in the crucible and not turn and run ....

turn and run = extramarital affair
turn and run = existing in a cold/dead marriage
turn and run = pointing the finger away from ourself
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:54 PM
Pepperband,

Mere sentiment would require that he hang onto a g-rated photo, not a nudie pic. Besides, when I tried to send him racy photos of me once, he never looked at them. Said he didn't have time.

I can look at the book I guess. But now I'm starting to feel pretty hopeless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:56 PM
turn and run = But now I'm starting to feel pretty hopeless
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 04:57 PM
I will back off anytime you ask me to ...

just so you know
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 05:01 PM
turn and run = I'm not so sure that my husband's problem is low expectations

(I confess, this made me smile .... who wants to talk about your husband's problems ???? YOU, not I)
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 05:54 PM
Pepperband, saying I'm feeling hopeless is not the same as saying I am hopeless or the marriage is hopeless.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 05:55 PM
good!
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 06:31 PM
one thing about you that I find interesting .... when I write something as provocative as "This makes you the most powerful force in the marriage" .... you do not respond

I think that your cynicism is a veneer - and that is interesting
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 07:35 PM
Pepperband,

Well I dont' know how to respond to that. I can't see how it can possibly be true. In any other sphere of life, if you are the one following orders and your requests are always denied, then it's obvious to everyone that you are not very powerful. Why is it in marriage it's the reverse? It's not. That's just a platitude used to make someone feel better about the fact that they're being stepped on.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 07:37 PM
Quote
Quote
I'm always the one who has to change.


This makes you the most powerful force in the marriage.

because when you made a decision to change - things are different
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 07:38 PM
and when you make a decision not to change - you have the power to keep the status quo
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 09:31 PM
Pepperband,

Well that may be so, but there are always those situations in which your spouse really has to do something different or you just can't live with them at all.

Fortunately, I did have a small breakthrough with him on the phone. First he made some excuses about having to draw analogies between our marriage and his first marriage because it's the only experience he has to draw on. And he tried to do that, it's my problem not his problem thing that he does sometimes. But eventually I got him to agree to not bring her up so much.

Before that, he did make some counter-complaints - 1- the affair - I said that was wrong, that I'm sorry, that we can talk about it if he wanted to. And told him, no I don't want to look elsewhere, I want to fix what's wrong so I won't be tempted to look elsewhere. Of course he complained that there was too much wrong that needed fixing, but he always says that. And he said I brought up an ex-bf a few times I said if I did, I'm sorry and wouldn't do that again and that if I had to do it all over again I would have cut off all contact with him when I got married. But I said we can only control what we do now, not what's already done.

The photo is a different story. He swears up and down that if the situation were reversed, I could still keep nude photos of an ex without him being upset as long as it was someone who was definitely in the past. He says it's just part of his history, therefore part of who he is, that's why he won't part with it. And he apparently has this thing where he's paranoid I'm out to change who he is (which I think is why getting him to change anything is like pulling teeth). But he says he never looks at it, which is possible because he has all sorts of junk he never looks at, so I guess I can let this one go.

At least he agreed not to bring her up so often, so I feel a bit better.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/23/08 10:00 PM
Thank you for sharing so much of what is personal to you
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/26/08 04:33 PM
update -

Okay, some really interesting things are happening. He is starting to air some greivances, including my infidelity. So at least he is talking about it, which gave me the opportunity to tell him, yeah you should be mad, I messed up and I'm learning how to avoid that in the future, etc. (Short version).

And he agreed that I have good points, but it's not my good points that are the trouble and so that's why he's talking about the negative stuff now. And I realized that he doesn't talk about divorce the same way I do. To him a threat of divorce is just a way to get my attention and force me to take what he says seriously. It is not a decision or a declaration of what he really intends to do. I told him this and explained what the word usually means to me and why the first few times he did that I was absolutely devastated. But I said I understand now I was misinterpreting him.

So I guess that means I should just get used to the fact that when we air disputes he's going to sound like all doom and gloom, but I need to not read too much into that.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 02/27/08 02:02 AM

Your power is that you are changing because you want to change, so you do. He is afraid to change because he thinks that is what you want; fear dominates his thinking.

Women internalize, men externalize, as a rule of thumb. Yet men can and do change, if it makes them more comfortable.

Larry
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 02/27/08 05:00 PM
Quote
So I guess that means I should just get used to the fact that when we air disputes he's going to sound like all doom and gloom, but I need to not read too much into that.


I bet that begins to change as you both become more secure in having these types of convos. As he finds that you are a safe bet for expressing his fears, and for talking about your infidelity...his whole demeaner and outlook may change to something more positive.

My marriage is only 6 months old Aph, so we are just now starting to become intimate, really. As I am feeling safer and safer with him, I am opening up more and it's really becomming a very freeing thing for me to be able to tell him of my fears/concerns.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/28/08 04:34 PM
Well this is frustrating..it seems my snooping into his computer a while back is just as intolerable to him as my infidelities, and he blames MB. He called me a fanatic. What a Luddite. I told him he should know me better than to think I'd be involved in anything wasn't evidence-based and scientifically sound. And that I'd respect him more if he actually read something about it before practically accusing me of joining a cult.

Anyway, about the snooping..I told him I think it was the only thing that stopped him from having an affair and how could he possibly expect me to be sorry for that? I don't get this at all. I've given him permission to snoop on me, all my passwords and everything and I don't even think he's used them. I have to wonder if he even cares what I do.

I also said if he didn't want to do anything involving MB that was his business but he wasn't going to stop me just because he's afraid of change. And then later I brought up the topic of influence vs. control - spouses SHOULD be able to influence each other and be accomodating to each other's needs - that's not the same thing as being controlled or manipulated. I said that for things in general, not just MB, when he's so rigid like that it makes me feel like he just doesn't respect my opinions or care about what I think. I said I understand you're afraid of changing too much to suit me but there's got to be a middle ground.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/28/08 04:36 PM
Has it been awhile since you read this?

*LINK* here

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I call these states of mind Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal. And regardless which state spouses are in, negotiations can be very difficult. - Harley
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 02/28/08 05:38 PM
Aph,

Spouses should influence each other, but they cannot demand that the other be influenced.

When getting back to a state of intimacy so that the other is more likely to be open to being influenced, you need to start meeting their E/N's first. This will make them feel more inimate towards you and cared for.

And if you can do this, then you can introduce the POJA and he will be more likely to be willing to give it a try.

When I introduced my H to MB, I did it in a very gradual way. I knew he would balk if I just threw it all at him. He would have thought it was a cult.

I started like this (and made it fun for him)

"GB, do you think I meet your top E/N's?"

"J, what are you talking about? What are E/N's?"

"Well, they say that if a wife meets H's top E/N's he will always be in love with her"

"Really??????"

That got him interested because it sounded kind of naughty, and fun.

I explained them all to him, he picked his top five fav's...and told me how I rated on meeting them.

Then after awhile he got around to finding out what mine were. Now if I'm pissy, he'll be the first to say "I must not be meeting your top E/N's, I better work on that" And he does.

He is the first to tell me if I am slacking. Because quite frankly I have trouble with E/N's. Especially when I don't feel like meeting them. But the great things is that he can verbalize it, and DOES verbalize it, so I know I need to pay some attn to him.

On DJ's...I didn't just sit him down and explain to him how he was going to act from now on...I made it fun.

He would say something to me that was a total DJ and instead of lecturing him, I'd just say "VIOLATION! DJ!" And laugh.

Then he started askign what I was talking about.

Now he still won't read here, but he will let me read to him from here. He knows all the people through me talking about them. And he likes the concepts. Even POJA, but he especially likes knowing that I am going to try and meet his top needs. In fact he LOVES that because he knows he is going to keep getting sex and hugs and adoration! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And APH, there are a couple of major DJ's in what you wrote above. If you really did say it as you describe here, it would not have enticed him to be influenced or intimate...it would have put him on the defensive and maybe into anger.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/28/08 06:36 PM
Weave/Josie, now THAT is woman power! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/29/08 04:36 PM
JosieJones,

Well I when I tried that months earlier he didn't want to hear anything about it. And it's not like I was pushing it. I just suggested he check out the site and he comes back with that. But because MB is at odds with his views of snooping, he sees it as a problem and not a solution.

Pepperband,
Yeah I've read that before and just re-read it and I still don't know how to apply it to someone who refuses to bend, especially when in this case, if I bend and say it was wrong to snoop - that's entirely against MB principles and also implies, dishonestly, that I'd never do it again.

But both of you have given me ideas on how I can explain things a bit better. I'll try again.

BTW, making some changes now that I'm starting to feel better physically. The Lyme disease caused me to take 4 weeks to get over the flu. I'm still taking Rx medicine for post-nasal drip (it was getting into my chest and causing chest pain). However, I think I'm finally recovering well enough to exercise (no more chest pain except when breathing in cold air...all my exercise is indoors, though.) I returned to my yoga and threw in some aerobics today. I'm also going back to my weight-loss diet.
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/29/08 05:00 PM
feel better
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/29/08 05:01 PM
Aph - a question

Do people who know you well think you have a really good sense of humor?
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 02/29/08 07:24 PM
Pepperband,

Yeah I think so. Is this just idle curiosity or is there a reason you're asking?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 02/29/08 07:52 PM
Yes, USE your sense of humor when dealing with your husband - make this all as lighthearted as possible - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/03/08 08:03 PM
Pepperband,

That's no longer possible. He just said something to me so horrible even I can't repeat it here - and I have a pretty thick skin. I tried to ignore it, but when we were playing the online game I finally had to tell him, I'm in a bad mood so I think I'll just go.

Later I told him that it was because of what he said. I asked what he hoped to accomplish by saying that because now I can't enjoy his company at all. I had NO fun playing the game with him that time. None whatsoever.

In the same email he said I'm not taking his complaints seriously. So I basically said, I've done x, y and z what else do you want from me? - and that that was NOT rhetorical- I want to know.

I ended my reply there. I really do think I'm doing and saying everything I'm supposed to. But right now he just seems more interested in escalating things than resolving them.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/04/08 04:07 PM
Okay, so we have a date to talk on the phone about stuff tonight after work. (I called him to set it up - email just takes too freaking long).

Anybody have any suggestions?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 03/04/08 08:13 PM
Discuss ideas and concepts about developing the future structure of your marriage - try to avoid talking about the past if you can
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/05/08 05:09 AM
Thanks, Pepperband.

It went surprisingly well - except he asked me to write a 10-year plan so he can see what's important to me. (Sort of a what do you want to do with your life for the next 10 years sort of question.) I went and did it, but the part I'm not happy about is that it's sort of a test to see if we have a marriage worth saving - which of course means he's still not committed to me.

I found out he really is more upset about the snooping than the cheating (a fact I find weird and a bit disturbing.) Swears up and down that he would have told me "some version of the truth" if I had just asked him and would have let me search his computer with him standing right there if I wanted to. But I did it behind his back so he feels "violated."

I'm a little worried that he's not more upset by the cheating than he is. He sees it as a paternity issue only - if we're not trying to have a baby, then it's not that big a deal. When I asked why he wasn't more upset, he said he feels like he shouldn't be all that upset because he had started looking as well. I can sort of understand that part of it.

And we talked about that thing he said, he pointed out he had said it was a hypothetical, true, but he agreed that it wasn't the best way to get his point across.

Anyway, after I sent him my 10-year plan, I sent him another email saying that since he gave me an essay quiz, I was going to give him a multiple choice one, gave him the list of 10 emotional needs and asked him to rank his top 5. He might still refuse but I figure now that he's asking me for info, it's worth a shot.
Posted By: weaver Re: I finally told him directly - 03/05/08 01:04 PM
In the different states of marriage article that Pep linked, it says the only way to get back to the beginning, or a state of intimacy from withdrawal is through E/N's.

Your husband seem to be vascilating between conflict and withdrawal.

Maybe his anger is coming out a little more now that he feels safer in the marriage. Now he knows you are very much engaged in your marriage and in making it work, so he feels safe to let some anger out.

It's really not snooping when you are married, you are right. 2long wrote a good definition of the difference between secrecy and privacy. He seems pretty hurt that instead of being open and communicating with him about your fears... maybe he is hurt that you couldn't trust him to go directly to him and ask. He must want intimacy too, Aph.

I am surprised that he still doesn't seem to have the normal devastation people feel when they find out about an affair. Possibly withdrawal was a way to protect himself from this devastation.

I wouldn't be surprised if anger continues to seep out and he flashes between conflict and withdrawal for awhile longer, at least until you begin meeting his top E/N's.

I really feel this is the way to go. Through you meeting his E/N's and getting back to that place of intimacy and loving feelings. I'm glad you are looking to find out what his are. I wouldn't look for him meeting yours just yet though. Start with getting him back on board, as it says in Harley's article.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/05/08 11:06 PM
Thanks, JosieJones. I'll do that.
Posted By: cipher Re: I finally told him directly - 03/05/08 11:12 PM
I hate to threadjack but what was 2long's definition of secrecy versus privacy?
Posted By: 2long Re: I finally told him directly - 03/09/08 06:11 PM
cipher:

Ac2ally, it wasn't my definition. It was something Spacecase put 2gether from various sources, possibly Bryn Collins (though I think the specific quote is Spacecase's).

Quote
The Difference Between Secret And Private
.
Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.
.
Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.
.
Private: I believe in reincarnation.
.
Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.
.
Private: I got terrible grades in high school.
.
Secret: I forged my medical degree.
.
The Difference Between Truth and Honesty
.
Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.
.
Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability.

-ol' 2long
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/11/08 02:26 PM
This is a venting post.

I still don't have an answer because first he said his email program crashed and then he says he's sick. It's just a little cold, and this is over a week he's making me wait. This is one of the things about him that really pisses me off. We have to discuss things on HIS time table because he doesn't like when I have to talk about everything immediately while he's still upset. But then he puts it off forever and doesn't even take my feelings into consideration at all. It was his idea for me to send that stupid thing in the first place and he doesn't even bother to get back to me in a reasonable amount of time. But there wasn't much I could do so I said hope you feel better and I'll talk to you in a few days.

I hate that he's always holding all the cards. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me (and knows it.) I don't even know if he's capable of that.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/13/08 03:07 PM
I just got an email from him on a different matter, but he said his computer is slowly recovering, and he's slowly recovering and it may take until Monday.

So I'm no longer pissed off because at least I know about when he'll be able to get back to me on the 10-year plan email. And he was the one who brought it up this time, and that helped a lot.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/25/08 02:49 PM
I'm replying to this so I can continue to watch it. Apparently when they changed forums, they lost all our Watched Topic lists. And for some odd reason, you have to post in order to watch a topic. Sigh.

BTW, it's been over 3 weeks and still no answer to the email he insisted I send. He says he's sick, but he's well enough to play computer games.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 03/25/08 02:51 PM
forgot to click the little box
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/04/08 07:12 AM
Dunno if anyone is still reading this thread anymore, but we talked about the email (10-year-plan) over the phone so I wouldn't have to wait until he decided to read email again. Apparently he was okay with it, said that it was consistent with his, etc. So that turned out to be no big deal.
Posted By: catperson Re: I finally told him directly - 04/04/08 12:56 PM
Quote
I hate that he's always holding all the cards.
One thing I was told was that I have to find way to regain control. My H is a severe procrastinator. He often won't do what I need, but he fights if I try to get someone else to do it. For example I have curtains I asked him to hang 4 years ago; they're still sitting on the floor in the bathroom. In that case, for my own sanity, I need to save up the money to hire a handyman (you wouldn't want me to try to hang them!) and just get it done. I know - based on past experiences - that he'll be embarrassed and we'll have a fight, but I can't let that stop me from regaining control over what I need and want.

So can you find ways to redirect the control back to your hands? I have been told by IC that when my H says he'll do something (and I suspect he won't), I am to say, 'Great! I need to have it done by Tuesday night, so if it turns out you can't get to it by Tuesday afternoon, I'll do it myself. Ok?' What can he say to that? That he never intended to do it in the first place?
Posted By: Thambi Re: I finally told him directly - 04/04/08 02:57 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you cheat on your husband 5 times with 5 different guys, in addition to countless other cyber incidents and EAs?

You have no right to be so demanding of him. He is crushed and he knows he can't tell you that because you will use that information to ruin him. I'm sure he really wants to divorce you but doesn't feel he has the strength right now. You might have finished the job of his first wife and completely crushed his self-worth, and now he feels that if he leaves you he might be alone forever.

I'm not trying to judge you, I'm trying to make you understand how he feels. If you want this marriage, you have to accept this, show REAL remorse for your MULTIPLE infidelities and do what it takes to recover. So far it still seems like you're fence sitting.

Be happy you still have a chance. Most men would have kicked you to the curb right now, even those on MB after your many, many indiscretions. Perhaps you're just not the marrying kind? Marriage is only for those who choose and are capable of sustaining monogamy.
Posted By: catperson Re: I finally told him directly - 04/04/08 03:11 PM
My bad. Wasn't paying close enough attention to what thread I was in. My advice is still valid, but Thambi's right. This is supposed to be all about him right now. You'll just have to wait it out.
Posted By: Enlightened_Ex Re: I finally told him directly - 04/04/08 04:38 PM
Ahh, control.

The problem is, control is an illusion. If you are looking for control, or holding the cards, or having the upper hand, this is NOT marriage building, but power games.

In reality, the only power we have is over ourselves. The only power OTHERS have is what we give them.

So I would encourage you to stop thinking of things in terms of being able to control them, or control the outcome.

Why?

Because you can't.

What can you control? How you act, how your respond. That's all.

Originally Posted by catperson
Quote
I hate that he's always holding all the cards.
One thing I was told was that I have to find way to regain control.
As long as you are talking about control over yourself, that's one thing and healthy.

If you are trying to control others, or control circumstances, this is likely to be met with disappointment, as you can't really control others or circumstances.
Originally Posted by catperson
My H is a severe procrastinator. He often won't do what I need, but he fights if I try to get someone else to do it. For example I have curtains I asked him to hang 4 years ago; they're still sitting on the floor in the bathroom.
I sense the frustration.
Originally Posted by catperson
In that case, for my own sanity, I need to save up the money to hire a handyman (you wouldn't want me to try to hang them!) and just get it done.
That's right, do it yourself or hire out the job. Either way, I still suggest you not complain about your husband, it doesn't help and doesn't make you stronger.
Originally Posted by catperson
I know - based on past experiences - that he'll be embarrassed and we'll have a fight, but I can't let that stop me from regaining control over what I need and want.
That's right, He may not like it, and he's free to be unhappy about it, to be mad about it, or whatever. He is entitled to his feelings as much as you are.

He is also subject to any consequences his actions, or inaction might bring about.

It's ultimately a decision he must make as well.
Originally Posted by catperson
So can you find ways to redirect the control back to your hands? I have been told by IC that when my H says he'll do something (and I suspect he won't), I am to say, 'Great! I need to have it done by Tuesday night, so if it turns out you can't get to it by Tuesday afternoon, I'll do it myself. Ok?' What can he say to that? That he never intended to do it in the first place?

That's right. You control what you are going to do.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/06/08 02:34 PM
Thambi,

I'm not demanding anything. He was the one who asked me to do something. I did it, and it took weeks to get a response. Normally if I ask someone to send me an email about something, it makes sense for me to read it right away and respond, especially if it's about something really important. I think it's common courtesy not to leave someone hanging when you're the one who requested something be done. (We did eventually talk about it, but I had to call him on the phone.)

If he wanted to divorce me, he'd be gone already. It's not that hard to get a divorce. And the fact that I messed up in the past is no excuse for him to mess up now. There are more ways to hurt a marriage than infidelity. A BS has two choices - stay or leave. And if you choose to stay, then doing things to drive your spouse away makes no sense at all and is counterproductive. So I should have to tolerate him being upset and expressing this upset in appropriate ways, but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate any and all forms of mistreatment. Remorse doesn't mean becoming a doormat.

Besides, this is not behavior that is a result of my affairs. He was ALWAYS like this. Not everything can be blamed on me, sorry.
Posted By: Thambi Re: I finally told him directly - 04/07/08 08:05 PM
I'm sorry but just from reading your post I can tell how much you just don't "get it" and that is what your husband is reacting to. Your posts are full of "I cheated buts...". Look around this site. You sounds just like a dozen other WS looking to rationalize or justify what cannot be rationalized or justified.

Look, you CHEATED on your husband with Five Different Men. You cybered with countless other guys. i'm not saying you alone are to blame. Odds are much of what drove you away was his fault. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters is that you cheated. Until you are both together again and strong in the marriage, well you are going to have to put your own needs to the side a bit. Does that suck? of course. So does having the woman you love sleep with half a baseball team.

You seem to still be fence sitting. If you don't want this marriage, then don't put your BH through all this. Just leave. But if you do, well you have to roll up your sleeves and FIGHT.

He didn't make you have an affair. If you were unhappy you could have left. You chose to have the affair. Now you are choosing to stay. Either get in 100% or get out. Don't keep telling us the "if..buts". Your husband may take years to recover. Are you truly ready for that? It seems pretty obvious you are not, and you still don't get the severity of what you've done.

Sorry if this comes across as a 2x4, but the truth hurts and I honestly want to see your situation improve, which ever way it goes. Best of luck.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/10/08 01:07 AM
Thambi,

I've never been fence sitting. He was always the one threatening to leave (long before I confessed), but I made the mistake of thinking he meant it when he didn't. Apparently, you can't really take someone at their word when they say "I want a divorce" unless they actually file paperwork. Yes, he has the right to divorce me but I know him well enough to know that's not what he wants. It's a form of shock therapy to get me to do whatever it is he wants me to do. Unfortunately, he's not always clear as to what he wants me to do.

I've read all the books, and I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. Looking at the long-term picture our progress has been three steps forward, standing still for a while, then one or two steps back. The steps back drive me crazy, esp. when they occur after I see some progress. That's my problem, I know, I am being too impatient.

I've been trying to tell him I'm willing to do whatever it takes to help him through this, but he said he wants me to go back in time and undo it all. Unfortunately, I didn't handle that very well but I apologized for that and said I'd be willing to do anything humanly possible.

I just wish I knew what to do that I haven't already done.
Posted By: Thambi Re: I finally told him directly - 04/10/08 08:02 PM
Aph,

The best advice I can give you is, BE STILL. Yes BSs can say mean, hurtful things. They can go into periods of depression and moodiness, they can lash out. It's your job not to respond. He is doing it because he is testing you. He wants to see if you are really sorry, if you will really take him back.

Instead of getting upset, have you tried sympathizing with him? And if he is disrespectful, try telling him calmly "I understand that you are hurting and angry. But you cannot speak to me in that disrespectful manner. I'm not shutting down, but if you can't talk to me like an adult then we can't talk right now." If you are firm on your boundaries, eventually he will get it.

You have to be the rock in this situation. Even if things don't work out, don't you want to know you gave it the best you could before leaving? You say he doesn't want to leave, and neither do you . That is GREAT! that's where you should start. You cheated on him multiple times and he is still with you. He clearly loves and values you. He has shown it by sticking with you through the worst possible situation ever (multiple affairs, no respect shown by you.)

But what have you done to show him how much you love him? You have moved away. Even if it was for entenuating circumstances, how does he know you aren't chatting with other guys online? How does he know you aren't cheating again? You have to try and understand his point of view. Be there for him. Allow him to vent. Show him you aren't going anywhere and that you love only him. And for god's sake, you two HAVE to live together or it will never work.

I hope things improve, I'm really rooting for you. You seem like a good person, it's almost hard for me to believe you've done what you have. Please remember it every time you get angry with your husband, remember what he has to think of when he looks at you. Maybe you will be a little more forgiving.
Posted By: TeaTea Re: I finally told him directly - 04/11/08 08:37 PM
Hi Aph--

I just spent the past however many minutes reading all of your thread-- here and your one in "in recovery".

I just wanted to say that I feel for you. I, too, am the FWS... working hard on R the M. H 'doesn't know' what he wants and threatens over and over (every time he gets really mad and worked up) that he's going to leave. I, also, have used the "boy that cried wolf" to describe him (not to his face). He also plays the whole "I'm not doing anything for this marriage until I decide whether or not this is what I want" card. IE-- he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again that really hurt me and really pushed me away-- but just uses my A as an excuse to continue them at this point. This has been going on since September-- the whole "I don't know" bit He also tells me frequently that he doesn't feel the same way about me anymore, etc, but he, too, is still at home, and making plans with me, etc.

Oh, and BTW, H had 2 EAs prior to my A, and also had a revenge A afterwards. None (as far as I know, but sometimes I think I am missing puzzle pieces, but that is a whole 'nother story) were PA.

I've had NC with OM since November-- although, I was trying since May/June, it was just I was "too nice" about it (worried about hurting OM's feelings, yuck), and hadn't found this site, so I didn't know about a NC letter. I changed my phone number, and went true NC in November... but then he reared his ugly head again in Feb (after months of NC) and sent a 7 page love letter to my email account. Well, H found the email before I did (I had given him all of my passwords). That was like another mini-D day. That put us into a huge tailspin. I used that as my opportunity to send a TRUE (actually, nasty) NC letter at that point.

Anyways-- I just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. And there are days (esp. my H's bad days) where I just want to give up. But I keep fighting, and slowly, I think we are making progress. H is still very "in his head" though and hasn't SAID anything, but I can sense changes in his ACTIONS. Things can't stay the way they are now forever, at some point he's gotta get on the boat, but for now, I can tolerate this, and give him time.

You've got the added complication that you are separated (right? I'm not confusing threads, am I?). That must make it really hard also. I can't imagine trying to recover while separated. I commend you for doing everything that you can though.

And I agree that missing your OM is probably most likely because you and your H are separated. At this point, my OM could fall off the face of the earth (and for all I know, might have) and I couldn't care less. It gets better.

Hang in there.

TT
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/12/08 02:46 PM
Thambi and TeaTea,

Thanks. Both your posts put this into better perspective for me. I'll try to be more patient with him.

TeaTea,

We're only separated in the geographical sense. There's no legal marital separation or anything like that. But you all are right that we need to fix that situation as soon as we can.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/22/08 05:03 AM
Update:

Some time ago, to spend more time with him and be able to help fill his need for recreational companionship I decided to learn to play his favorite online game. Unfortunately, I think that's now backfiring on me. He's clearly more interested in advancing in the game than in spending time with me. He plays with me when he has "spare" time in between battles with his friends whose characters are more advanced in the game. I've been trying to advance my character but every time I get close enough to join him in one activity, he's on to the next. He tells me the "correct" way to play the game and gets angry if I make a mistake. When I told him I thought he was online primarily to advance in the game, not here to be with me, he said if we were here for me, we wouldn't be here - thus, confirming it. When we are online together, I can't tell if we're really having fun or if he's just putting in time with the wife so he can hurry up and play with his friends.

I know most people here are real quick to assume every problem is an affair, but he's said his online "friends" are not friends at all, but just casual acquaintances.

In the past, I've suggested other games or online activities but that never works. I just don't know what to do.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: I finally told him directly - 04/22/08 06:01 AM
This kinda sounds like an addiction. You can get seriously addicted to different internet activities... online games... this board... blush

Does that seem to fit? If so, the techniques are completely different for dealing with addictions. Basically, I think you must deal with the addiction before any of the MB techniques can work.

I'm sorry if you've already explored this in an earlier post.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/22/08 06:15 AM
jayne241,

No, I haven't explored this in my other posts. If it's an addiction, that really sucks.

I guess if I decide that's what it is, I have to tell him I think his game playing has gotten compulsive, why I think that way, and that I can't share it with him anymore. And perhaps also that it's up to him to find something else we can do together.

But if I'm wrong and I do those things, that totally messes up my Plan A. So how do I know for sure?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: I finally told him directly - 04/22/08 08:01 AM
I don't know... please don't make any changes in your Plan A without carefully considering. I'm not saying it is an addiction; but it might be worth considering.

There's a set of questions to figure out if you're an alcoholic or an addict. I forget what they are, but I think one is, does your <drinking, etc> affect your personal relationships or your work. Does he miss work, or deadlines, or does it affect his health like by missing sleep? It's certainly affecting your relationship.

What made me think of addiction was the way you describe him being more concerned with advancing his character than with helping you in the game; but not just that. That *could* understandable, maybe like a golfer not really enjoying teaching a novice, and might prefer a round with people more on his level. But you also said that his friends online aren't really friends either; that he is just interested in advancing, even with the other players. To me that sounds like someone addicted to the game.

In this game are there "channels" where players can carry on convos w/ each other while playing? I've known people who started relationships on such games, even gotten married. You can have social interaction even while playing.

Again, please don't mess up your Plan A just because I mentioned addiction. Make sure that's the case before doing anything.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/22/08 08:03 PM
Okay, well I explained that I had some concerns about the game and what those concerns were. I said I was worried that his playing was starting to become compulsive, that I could be wrong but can't he see why this would look bad? And I kept everything to "I" statements, so we'll see how that goes.
Posted By: catperson Re: I finally told him directly - 04/22/08 09:15 PM
Aside from an addiction, it could also be an escape. No disrespect to men, but I see time and time again that when men marry, they sometimes develop this 'what can I hold on to and what will my wife take away from me' attitude. And an 'oh great there she goes again telling me what I'm doing wrong jeez I wish she would just shut up' attitude. Know what I mean?

So it could be that he's doing it because while he's 'busy,' he doesn't have to interact with you on honey-dos and nagging and being told what he's doing wrong. Not that you are doing that, but that he may be perceiving marriage in general as such.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 04/26/08 04:59 AM
hi all,

I feel silly now. Turns out it wasn't that big a deal. He had hoped I'd be able to catch up to him by now in the game, but I'm just not as good. But the game has lots of games within the game, so we decided to do more of those and did so starting tonight. And he has been playing a lot more lately but only because his health hasn't been great (and it's something to do that doesn't take much effort) so we talked about his symptoms, and I urged him to go see his doctor again.
Posted By: bigkahuna Re: I finally told him directly - 04/26/08 07:55 AM
Good for you Aph.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/02/08 06:38 AM
Update - things are going pretty well, considering. My husband and I are in contact every day either talking or playing online, usually a little of both. After my complaint a while ago he's been really good at making sure when we're playing online that we do things we can do together.

It still seems so strange reading posts about BS's here wanting more information and getting lied to, etc. while my husband just doesn't want to know anything. Maybe someday that will change.

In the meantime, there are some things that have been bouncing around in my head so maybe I'll just tell you all. I can't really explain why or what purpose it would even serve to talk about it here or anywhere else, though. Maybe I just need to talk about it so it goes from being in my head to outside my head and I can forget about it for a while. But here's a bit of my history.

I think my views on marriage were pretty normal before meeting my first OM. When I found out he had cheated on his wife in the past I reacted like most normal people would - I was shocked, angry and asked why he didn't just divorce her if he was going to do that. His exact rationalizations don't matter now, the point is he's much better at making them than the average person. He was brilliant, and most people who knew him would agree he was an extremely intelligent, persuasive person. Not that I'm trying to shift the blame on him. Before marriage, I had cheated on, or traded for a new one, almost every boyfriend I ever had (but I thought marrying the right man was THE solution to that - that it would be easy to be faithful if he was "the one".)

We stayed in contact regularly, almost daily, for years even after he moved away. He not only knew about subsequent affairs of mine but liked to live vicariously through stories I'd tell him about my being with other men. And he'd give me tips on how not to get caught. I allowed him to have an enormous amount of influence to the point where I became just like him. I don't know how I could have done that. Now I'm really depressed, maybe I was better off not thinking about this stuff?
Posted By: Pepperband Re: I finally told him directly - 05/02/08 07:06 AM
Actually, I think it's very insightful of you to examine this part of your past thoroughly, before you cast it aside for better choices. Good job!
Pep
Posted By: Miss M Re: I finally told him directly - 05/02/08 08:01 AM
Hey Miss a,

I agree with Pep.

Very insightful, and you were totally sucked into this.

Good that you see this.

Can you share with BH?

That you were sucked in and dumb for the moment?

Best wishes!

Love in Christ
Miss M
Posted By: ForeverHers Re: I finally told him directly - 05/02/08 01:12 PM
Aphaeresis - since you decided on another thread that your advice to the person seeking help was better than my advice simply because both she and I are "persons of faith," I assume you will not like my posting on your thread. As you know, I have stayed away from posting to you, but now Miss M's responsive post to you regarding this post of yours has prompted me to offer up a few comments for you to think about as you are thinking about these latest thoughts.

You see, the "difference" between you and me on this subject of infidelity in your life is NOT that I am a believer and that you are not, it is a question of WHAT Standards do you embrace for yourself and WHY do they "control" your behavior regardless of circumstances. It is a question of "authority."


Miss M posited that you were "sucked in and dumb for the moment" and, therefore by extension of logic, somehow not responsible for the choices you made. That's "blameshifting" again, the old "the devil made me do it" excuse for avoiding responsibility for your actions and avoiding the necessity of have to make REAL changes that you also CHOOSE to make, permanent changes based upon the Standards that you choose to "surrender you life to" regardless of what you might "want or feel."

Quote
I think my views on marriage were pretty normal before meeting my first OM.

Really? You think, or thought, that "marriage" only meant sex with ONE man, your husband, for the rest of your life?

Interesting if true, but you "changed your mind" didn't you? Not just once, not just one "mistake," but many times. The "standard" of a "pretty normal marriage" seems to have either not been there or your standard was that you can change the standards to be whatever you want whenever you want it.

Is that STILL the "standard" you are going to operate the rest the of your life on? If so, why? If not, why?

More importantly, why should your husband BELIEVE that you have changed permanently? Remember, YOU were shocked that he wasn't "so shocked." It doesn't sound as though he believes it today as much as he simply accepts that you will do whatever want to do and, therefore, doesn't want the "details" because he really doesn't care what you do....stay with him or leave him.

Additionally, it also says a lot about HIS "Standards" for marriage.

It would seem that a discussion about "gaming" is nice, but what the two of you really need to discuss are "Standards" and "Boundaries," what they are in general, with respect to marriage, what they are for each of you, and WHY they should be the "authority" in your lives that you surrender to even when you "don't feel like it."


Quote
When I found out he had cheated on his wife in the past I reacted like most normal people would - I was shocked, angry and asked why he didn't just divorce her if he was going to do that. His exact rationalizations don't matter now, the point is he's much better at making them than the average person.

Yep, he was much better than the "average Joe" at appealing to your pre-marriage mindset of using people for your own gratification, just as he had rationalized it. In short, he told you what you wanted to hear.


Quote
He was brilliant, and most people who knew him would agree he was an extremely intelligent, persuasive person.

Got it. "Extremely intelligent, persuasive person(s)" EQUALS morally and ethically correct people.

"Extremely intelligent, persuasive person(s)" EQUALS "good people."

"Extremely intelligent, persuasive person(s)" who dream up tempting justifications for CHEATING and VIOLATING VOWS and PROMISES to one's SPOUSE EQUALS Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Sex with anyone I want to have sex with = "good."
Sex ONLY with my SPOUSE = "bad."

Now, how many "brilliant" arguments (rationalizations and justifications) can a WAYWARD SPOUSE in a "Wayward Spouse" mindset, "DREAM UP" to make it sound as though "bad choices = good choices?"


Quote
Not that I'm trying to shift the blame on him. Before marriage, I had cheated on, or traded for a new one, almost every boyfriend I ever had (but I thought marrying the right man was THE solution to that - that it would be easy to be faithful if he was "the one".)

Of course you are trying to "blameshift," and Miss M "bought into it" and tries to validate you as being "just sucked in" by some "silver tongued devil."

You CHOSE. Period. The choice, regardless of the temptation, is always the responsibility of the person MAKING the choice.

You choose to reject "religion." You choose to reject Christ. You choose not "accept" a "religious moral code" because (here comes the rationalization again) you reject any "higher authority" than yourself and your own wants and desires.

You established your moral choices on your premarital behavior. It was always what YOU wanted. All this particular "first" OM. So "brilliant," so not concerned about any "outside authority," so good at telling you what you want to hear to justify "doing anything you WANT to do." Let your emotions RULE you. Keep honesty and integrity out it. Let your hormone driven desires be both the reason and the excuse for separating "sex" from "fidelity to one man," after all, you are your own individual and not "created" for any purpose, you are evolved to be interested in "getting what you want no matter what anyone else thinks" in a "survival of the fittest" sort of way. IF you get what you want, it's "good" no matter what anyone else thinks.



Quote
We stayed in contact regularly, almost daily, for years even after he moved away. He not only knew about subsequent affairs of mine but liked to live vicariously through stories I'd tell him about my being with other men.


Yep, another "person" just interested in what HE gets out it.
And you got a thrill out of describing it to him. "Symbiotic" relationship, or "Paracytic" relationship? What do you think?

"Birds of a feather?"

What sort of "bird" do you really want to be, Aph?



Quote
And he'd give me tips on how not to get caught. I allowed him to have an enormous amount of influence to the point where I became just like him. I don't know how I could have done that. Now I'm really depressed, maybe I was better off not thinking about this stuff?


"I don't know how I could have done that."

Of course you do, Aph. You know EXACTLY how you not only "could" do that, but DID do that. You know WHY you did it, too.

This "self-examination stuff" does get depressing because no one "likes" to think that they are NOT "perfect." No one "likes" to think that there IS "some standard" out there by which they are "judged" by someone or something with the authority TO judge and to hold people accountable for their CHOICES.

THAT, Aph, is why (in religious terminology) the LAW was given to us. It was to CONVICT us, individually, that we are ARE sinners. But the "easy" way to avoid having to face that FACT is to simple deny that God exists. "No God, no authority" beyond what I want to do.

Standards and Boundaries and WHY they should be applicable to you AND to anyone else.

"NO Eve, you will NOT 'surely die'. You will become LIKE God, knowing Good and Evil." Such a "silver tongued devil." Such a "first OM."

And now I'll fade back out of your thread Aph.

My apology for the "intrusion" and not being as "silver tongued" as your first OM while married.


Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/03/08 10:28 PM
FH,

That's not why I didn't like your advice. Depending on which thread you're talking about I either didn't like your advice because 1- The person you were trying to advise did not share your faith and I was afraid you would chase her away from the boards with all your fanatical proselytizing or 2- You were giving that one guy, a betrayed husband, a 2 x4 when it was clear he was much too fragile for a 2 x4. He was asking for specific instructions and was only getting vague platitudes.

Second, your advice often deviates from Marriage Builders and amounts to "follow my religion or else." Well, FH, not everyone is going to follow your religion. That doesn't mean they can't learn MB principles. There is nothing about MB that is inconsistent with non-Christian religions or philosophies. If you want to talk about Christianity with other Christians, I have no problem with that. But I have a big problem with you chasing away non-Christians from MB because you can't stop trying to proselytize. You think it will gain you converts and maybe brownie points with God but all it will really do is drive people away from the boards who don't share your particular religious views. Maybe that's what you want, but I don't think it's what the Harleys intended for this board. And for the record, you won't convert or chase me away.

And yes, when I got married I had every intention of staying faithful for the rest of my life. That's what I meant when I said my views of marriage started out pretty normal - except that I thought it would be easier than it was.

And no, I'm not saying it was my first OM's fault. That is why I brought up my pre-marriage pattern - I recognize that the pattern was already there and so I can't blame my first OM for that.

As for standards and boundaries, yes I have discussed standards and boundaries with my husband. I recently accidentally ran into some guy I dated in college (before I met my husband), who also happens to be a friend of my sister which is why I ran into him. I emailed my husband and told him not because it was a big deal (I had only dated him briefly and hadn't seen him in 12 years) but because I wanted to be totally transparent. And I asked my husband if he was okay with what happened. He was okay with it, and launched into a big lecture about what he's NOT okay with. And I handled it just fine - he got no grief from me. And when my sister's friend was by to see her again, I told him that, too.

Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/03/08 10:32 PM
Thanks Pep and MissM,

Right now he's not interested in the how and why. He might not ever be, and that's his decision, I think.

However, I did get him to agree to read about emotional needs and pick his top 5. So we are getting around to discussing relationship stuff, just a little bit at a time here and there. That seems to be what he prefers.
Posted By: _Larry_ Re: I finally told him directly - 05/04/08 12:16 AM

Hi APH. . .

Quote
And no, I'm not saying it was my first OM's fault. That is why I brought up my pre-marriage pattern - I recognize that the pattern was already there and so I can't blame my first OM for that.

Yea, pattern, entrenched behavior, one of the more active weaknesses that drive affairs. Glad to see you reject that you were sucked in. Tons of women "Trade up" as they go through their dating years, or "just having fun" years as they choose to call it. The focus is on getting the best catch instead of the best relationship.

Remember these?

1. God and mom made him, you ain't gonna change him.
2. Let him fall in love with you, not what you pretend to be.
3. Don't make babies until you know it is gonna work and he will stick (and so will you).
4. If he doesn't have a sense of humor, forget it.
5. Two's company, three's a crowd. Relationships don't work in a crowd.

APH - you sure are passing out some good advice. All the above you know; I just wanted to say something to you on topic. Keep on keeping on. And all the best.

Larry
Posted By: ForeverHers Re: I finally told him directly - 05/04/08 04:00 AM
Quote
And yes, when I got married I had every intention of staying faithful for the rest of my life. That's what I meant when I said my views of marriage started out pretty normal - except that I thought it would be easier than it was.

What would be "easier than it was, marriage or being faithful?

It is a true saying,‘Hell is paved with good intentions’.
[1736 Wesley Journal 10 July (1910) I. i. 246]



Quote
And for the record, you won't convert or chase me away.

Aphaeresis, I have no intention of either. The first is not possible, only God can convert someone. The second is irrelevant. Stay or go, it's YOUR choice.

But it is interesting how you don't like someone to talk about faith and obedience to God, apparently trying to get them to leave the system to your Standards and Morals. A very interesting mindset any way you look at it.



Quote
You were giving that one guy, a betrayed husband, a 2 x4 when it was clear he was much too fragile for a 2 x4. He was asking for specific instructions and was only getting vague platitudes.

You and I have differing opinions. So what? I (and as several other posting members also stated) am of the opinion that that guy needs to develop a "spine" in the worst way or he's NOT likely to have any chance at recovering his marriage. Or I guess he could just take your husband's approach of not caring and not wanting to know. Which is better? Who knows? Whatever works for you, I guess, but we already know that your "best intentions" are subject to change whenever you want them to. Standards, that don't vary with "circumstances," Aph, THAT's what I tried to discuss with you when you first arrived here under your former "handle" and that you fought against discussing.

What's to keep you from finding that the "future" is tougher than you thought it would be and reverting back to your former "way to handle the tough road?"

And, yes, that's an "MB nerf 2x4," but still a question you need to answer for yourself. WHY would you surrender your right to change you mind and do whatever you want to do in the future and WHAT standards that exist OUTSIDE of yourself, that are "authoritative" over you, will you adopt as YOUR standards "no matter what the future may hold?"



Quote
As for standards and boundaries, yes I have discussed standards and boundaries with my husband.

That's a good start. Are your standards and boundaries the same? But what about taking them beyond the "discussion" stage and into the "application" to your life stage? Knowledge, by itself, is powerless and ineffective if not applied. What's going to keep you, and keep your husband, from deciding in the future that adultery is okay, and "amend" your standards to allow for infidelity?



Quote
That's not why I didn't like your advice.

Tsk, tsk. To be perfectly honest and transparent with you, Aph, I don't give a hoot if you like or dislike any advice I offer to another member. I was speaking to them, not you. The advice was for them, not you. They can accept it or reject it as they see fit, just like you did. You want to play 'guardian watchdog' (I almost said 'guardian angel,' but then I remembered you don't believe in angels or any 'higher authority' than yourself) of the system? WHO appointed you?



Get a grip on your life before you try to advise others, Aph. That would be my advice TO you.


Aren't you happy you "picked a fight" again? Oh ya, I forgot, you DO like to play games.

Posted By: Mr. Goodstuff Re: I finally told him directly - 05/04/08 02:52 PM
Hi Aph,

When was the answer the last time you asked yourself if you still want to save your relationship with your husband?

If you answered “yes” then,

What are today’s reasons why you want to save your marriage?

If you answered “no” then,

Mr. G
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/04/08 02:57 PM
FH,

Obviously you very much do care whether I like or dislike your advice, or you wouldn't have gone through all the trouble to hunt down one of my threads and post a complaint about me not liking your advice. If it doesn't matter to you, why bring it up? That's a rhetorical question, of course.

As to what standards I have outside myself, I already answered that question a long time ago. But because the answer wasn't "God" you wouldn't accept it. That's your problem, not mine.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/04/08 03:15 PM
Mr. Goodstuff,

Today's reasons would be, besides that I love him (which is necessary but not sufficient); we have a history together; we have a similar worldview; similar views on religion and politics (I know some people have religiously or politically mixed marriages and it works, but I don't think that would work for me); he still knows me better than anyone although obviously there's a lot I kept from him; at the risk of sounding vain, I honestly think he's happier as a married man and that he's happier when things are going well with us. That's why no affair I had was ever an exit affair - I couldn't have hurt him like that and I don't think I would have had any affair at all if I hadn't convinced myself that it wouldn't really hurt him if he didn't know.

Of course, the fact that we have kids and I don't want to break up the family or subject them to a divorce is also a reason. But that's more of a reason to avoid divorce, rather than working on having a real marriage. There is a distiction, I think.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/04/08 03:37 PM
Hi Larry,

Quote
Tons of women "Trade up" as they go through their dating years, or "just having fun" years as they choose to call it. The focus is on getting the best catch instead of the best relationship.

Yup, although when you're young most of your catches are bad almost by definition and any relationship is doomed from the start.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/10/08 04:11 PM
Been thinking about the concept of extraordinary precautions lately, but I think I'll start a new thread for that. Just letting you know it'll be out there soon.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/13/08 09:11 PM
Update -

A few days ago I called my husband to tell him someone I had an EA with last spring just emailed me and what did he want me to do? I knew it would be hard for him to hear but I didn't realize how hard it would be for me to say. I felt like I was confessing all over again. He didn't say much, just wanted to make sure this guy didn't live close or know where I was staying now. (He doesn't.) Then he said just delete it and not do anything else, so that's what I did. I told him how sorry I was about everything. What was weird was that in his voice, he just sounded like he was responding to a request for advice/help, almost like he was sympathetic, not angry at all.

As for the OM, he didn't really mean anything to me and I was really angry he would try to contact me after I told him not to. Especially since it meant I would have to tell my husband, which I really didn't want to do.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/20/08 10:09 PM
Update -

We're talking more about relationship stuff now. We finally discussed ENs, and he asked me about mine. He couldn't really give me a ranking, though because he said they were nearly all important. He said admiration wasn't that important because he gets that from work, but I said it still counts as a need and I should work on that. Other than admiration, other top needs were SF (for a long time I thought he had a low sex drive but he admitted he started avoiding sex when he started having physical problems - performance anxiety sort of thing), Honesty/Openness, and Domestic Support. But his most important need is not on Harley's list - he wants another baby. No surprise there.

I told him my EN's: Conversation, SF, Honesty/Openness (ironic, I know, I know), Affection (though I said he's always been good at that one.)

And he admitted lately that he's afraid I might have another affair. I asked him if there's anything I can do about that and he said he can't think of anything at the moment. I said to tell me if he does. I suggested having a friend with investigative skills check up on me, but he just laughed. But I think it might get easier when we are finally under the same roof.

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 05/21/08 04:00 AM
Aphaeresis,

Haven't posted to you for a while, but I have been trying to follow your updates and have noticed your posting to others of late. I even find myself agreeing with the advice you give them.

Must be my getting easier to please as I age, huh?

Quote
But I think it might get easier when we are finally under the same roof.

Did I hear that somewhere before?

grin

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 05/22/08 03:40 PM
Mark,

LOL! Yes, I'm sure I've heard it from you and many others on this board. And Thanks. --Lynne
Posted By: lousygolfer Re: I finally told him directly - 05/22/08 04:01 PM
L:

(you may want to pull your real name...)

About this:

Quote
I asked him if there's anything I can do about that and he said he can't think of anything at the moment. I said to tell me if he does.

Asking him what you could do is fine. How about telling him the things that you have been doing? To insure that you will not cross those boundaries again?

1, I will not invite other men to the house.
2. I will not "chat" on line with other men.
3. I will....

Do you see the difference.

He's afaid you will have another A. But HE doesn't know how to tell you what you should do to make him feel more comfortable. All you can do is let him know WHAT you are doing different from what you USED to do.

Good conversation about the EN's and the SF issues though.

Tough to rank them when you are first introduced to them. It will come. You live them, he will learn them.

LG
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 06/22/08 08:02 AM
Hi everyone. Nothing going on lately. Just letting you know I'm alive and doing fine. Things with my husband are progressing as much as they can under the circumstances.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 06/24/08 07:10 AM
Aph,

Glad you checked in. I've been wondering about how things are going with you.

I still wish you guys would get together in the same house. After being apart for so long it will take serious adjustment by both of you to make a home together. Once that process begins, remember that he will often be withdrawn from you and maybe even moody. But it will be the not knowing how to live with you that will be the culprit, not something he will necessarily be sulking about due to anger or anything like that.

You too will have those feelings from time to time. Just don't read them as incompatibility and decide to move on without giving it a chance.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 06/29/08 02:17 AM
thanks, Mark. I'll remember that.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 07/14/08 01:52 AM
Been a couple of weeks since we heard from you, Aph. How ya doin'?

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/26/08 10:52 AM
Hi Mark,

Good up until yesterday. Been working a lot.

So what happened yesterday? Well my husband told me he saw a urologist. Apparently he has a prostate problem and his doctor said the only thing that will help are these pills which have the side effect of impotence. But he has to do something because he's having trouble urinating.

He goes back to a follow up in a month. I asked him to ask the doctor about other options (I find it hard to believe there's only one medicine he can take!) and whether taking an occasional "drug holiday" might be a solution.

If anyone else has any suggestions, I'm all ears.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/26/08 12:16 PM
I just checked with google. His doctor is full of it. There are lots of options now, including the possibility that erectile dysfunction pills like Viagra might actually be able to double as prostate shrinking pills. And even if they can't, they can be taken with the beta blockers. (The concern in combining them is with a possible drop in blood pressure *in some patients*, but his is too high anyway.)

And also a new study says botox injected right into prostate gland alleviates symptoms while causing no sexual side effects.
Posted By: TheRoad Re: I finally told him directly - 07/26/08 03:28 PM
Aph,

Your full of it. But....

You are right some Doc's just write the easiest Rx.

And your BH is full of it. He has problems with dealing with your affair and most likely is using his ED/prostate problem as an excuse to not have SF with you.

Originally combination of BH's weight, age, out of shape started ED.
Your PA maybe has left him feeling he can't follow OM. So he won't admit this, but will do anything to avoid having to compete with post PA comparisons.
Something is bothering your BH.

How much and what did you tell your BH about the OM and the PA?

How long was your PA? How did D day come about? How hard was it for NC to happen?
Could you provide a mini time line?
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 07/26/08 03:49 PM
TheRoad,

Well he doesn't need an excuse for that but we're living apart right now. (We got into financial difficulty and I ran into health problems so the kids and I are staying at my folks house till the end of the year.) And he wants to have another child, so I know he wouldn't be any happier with a permanently sexless marriage than I would be.

He specifically requested no details about my infidelity, so I haven't told him much. But he knows I'm willing to discuss it if he needs to. It was multiple affairs (including two ONS) over 4-5 years maybe and he found out because I told him. Unlike a lot of women, I never wanted to leave my husband for an affair partner because I thought of an affair as something entirely separate from my marriage - of course I now know it doesn't really work that way.
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 08/05/08 10:52 PM
update - okay, no big deal. The doctor also gave him Cialis. I don't know why he made things sound so much worse than they are. He does that sometimes.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 08/05/08 11:12 PM
Aph,

Sorry I missed your update of July 26th. I've been a bit busy lately and don't read here all the time like I once did.

Are you guys still on track to be back in the same place by the end of the year? Any chance for a few weekends together every once in a while till then?

How are you and the kids doing and how has your health been lately? Anything new along that front?

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 09/24/08 02:57 PM
Hi Mark.

I haven't been around much lately either. I'm completely Lyme-free now - don't even have to take medicine except for allergy meds. Unfortunately, my husband seems to have it or something similar - might have been from that camping trip we took once. My son still has it, but is progressing well. My daughter is fine.

We will reunite in December but we no longer know where. I applied for a permanent job locally because the benefits are good, and if I get it my husband will look for one in this area as well. (The company he works for isn't doing so well and keeps laying people off. His job is safe so far but we're sick of the instability.) We'll all be here for the holidays in any case. I might get to see him in November if we decide to relocate here because that's when he takes off work to get our stuff out of storage.

I lost interest in our online game, but we've been emailing and talking on the phone more. So things are going as well as they can be.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: I finally told him directly - 09/24/08 05:17 PM
Aphaeresis,

Good to hear from you.

Once you guys get back together in the same place work as hard as you can to do the stuff you learned from Marriage Builders. Make your marriage the one you both deserve and can be proud of.

None of this does any good unless you actually put in into practice.

I know it might not mean much to you but I still pray for you both.

Mark
Posted By: Aphaeresis Re: I finally told him directly - 12/02/08 02:02 PM
I'm starting a new thread. Looks for "Aph's new thread"
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