Affairs $UCK......period.

They SUCK your sanity and the stabiity of your family...at least it did mine.

My H's A SUCKED our savings and salaries and continues to do so.

As I was writing out the check for our MC yesterday, I wondered how much we've actually paid in re$ources in addition to the lost wages, bad decision result$ and emotional damage$.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Fortunately, we only had one huge cell phone bill that H was agonizing over paying w/out me knowing. No moving, travel, hotel, PI or other incidental A expenses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I am also wondering how the financial impact affects the retirement planning concepts of both partners in the A. (That will be discussed on the "50 Something Shootin' the Breeze Thread" for those interested.)

Most 20, 30, or 40 Somethings don't even consider future financial impacts of one's A (job, career options, retirement plans) that may impact one's quality of life when one turns 50-60 Something.

* Has anyone actually figured out how much cash you've spent (or is still owed) on your (or your spouse's) affair?

* Has this expense impacted your ability to retire as planned....or was/is retirement even considered by you/spouse?

As mentioned on my "Trials and Smiles" thread, I had muliple ephiphanies at our MC session yesterday. One was my renewed passion for financial literacy education. My attitudes have changed now that I've experienced the betrayal.

If these questions are too personal, I understand. But if you can help by sharing your honest opinions, I would appreciate it.

Thanks for reading,

Ace

[color:"red"] Edited to change title and add link on page 4. [/color]

As Colorado is a no-fault state everything had to be split 50-50 for the divorce.

Wayzilla left with $130,000 liquid cash and $125,000 in investment and 401K.

After my buy-out refinance I am paying $400 more per month to stay in the house I have been in for 14 years.

I do worry about retirement daily now and will have to become far more aggressive in saving and preparing for it. It was not how the plan was supposed to work.

And of course there is no "net" anymore. Personal health or financial crisis will be faced alone.

Fortunately, she did not put us in any particular financial distress during the affair. She is way to money conscience.


Oh, and I have had to buy some things to replace some stuff that went out the door with Wayzilla.

I have made some withdrawals from my IRA (all in all ~$6000) and my credit card bill is over the limit right now, I'm working to pay it down. I took on all of the utilities in the house and got CS and alimony (for the mortgage--not for personal use). I am down the $6000+ potential gains over the last year, and the credit card is going to be a biotch to bring down.

PWC has NO retirement savings; he is 33 years old. If we had gotten divorced, I would be struggling, no doubt, and I do not believe that retirement would be something that I could do.

The affair/s took the second income away, and my debt went from ~10K to now 23K. Yes, affairs SUCK!

Let's see,

By the time all the child support is paid it should round out between CS and attorney's fees around $200,000. She gets CS plus full time day care at $450/month for the first 5-6 years (mind you the day care is false, she showed the judge the I got hired for $8.00/hour as a temp worker yesterday, in court, and the child was already 18 mos. old. She doesn't plan to work, just be supported by the CS and the rent on the 2 condo's from her X)

Then you can add in the $70,000 that went to both realtors (old house and new) because of the move and the $12,000 in moving expenses.

So, let's say about $300,000, if I'm lucky by my 63rd birthday.

I'm pretty sure, it wasn't that much fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

FTS

Well, financially I don't think I really got hammered as bad as some due to my wife's EA. MC about 2x/month x 12 months @ $40/session. IC at the same rate weekly for two of us for 2 months. Wife's hotel bill was about $200 when she moved out for the week. She begged me to pay for half the plane ticket to reimburse OM when she didn't go...I did. But my reasoning was simple...I didn't want him to have ANY excuse to contact her about anything ever again. So about another $250 there.

Drops in the bucket compared to most.

But...recovery= priceless.

My FWW just IM'ed me, telling me that she needed the car tonite. Didn't know what for, but no big deal. I'd asked if she needed me to do some running for her...she told me it was none of my business. DUH!!! Tomorrow's my b-day...I'm not even thinking about it, but I know that she's been setting something up. Talk about a change from things before...she never realized that just doing little things like having a card and a SMALL gift for me went a long ways on my birthday before...but she has really gone out of her way to give me a great birthday the last few years. (And of course I work hard to do the same for her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

Its all worth it to me.

Makes one wonder doesn't it, if someone were to show a "potential" WS the figures before they began the A, would they reconsider?

Probably not, they wouldn't believe it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

All in all, we got off cheap at probably less than $10K. But then we didn't have to move or change jobs or anything like that since OW lived 3000 miles away.

Bright note here is that OW lost out big time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> She lost the freelance income she got from her job with FWH company and we exposed her for collecting disability from another country where she was supposed to be living. Not sure if they want after her to repay or simply stopped all future payments. But I do know that she defaulted on her mortgage and lost her home.

That knowledge still brings a smile to my face. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Who

Ace,

Not sure this is my situation, our financial problems started during marriage and mainly due to "he cannot manage money" and drinking. I know he did not spend money on her during 2 month time.

Figure in what MC costs are going to be and roughly $1,000 but we needed it anyway, even without affair.

My resentment is the fact that he blew about $30,000 from IRA trying to start a business when he lost job and I moved and when you drink and procrastinate about everything, you do not need to be self-employed. So now "he" is in some trouble paying his debts and unable to share household load and I resent that I have to get over A and help him financially, too.

Today is our session with MC and will cover just that. I already emailed her that is what I wanted to discuss, am I OCD or just a control freak???

Well, let's see. We lost our home to foreclosure ($170,000), I lost one car-- repossessed ($5,000), lost my brand new car when it caught fire while he was driving to see OW ($23,000), lost my job ($50,000/yr), his trailer and all his equipment was stolen because he left it parked at a friends while he was spending the night with OW ($5,000), he wrecked his brand new Trooper ($25,000), he ended up in the hospital for two weeks ($??$?), he couldn't work for a long time (?$$$?), he went to jail for DWI and with probation, fines and attorney about ($5,000).

Retirement? What's that?

We're still paying in some ways for his affair(s) and probably will be for awhile. If I looked at this everyday I would be overwhelmed and discouraged. So I don't. I just trust God to provide. He has and does. Every day.

Yep. Affairs $UCK big time.

Oh and those are just the big ticket items. I'm not including the money he spent going out, buying gifts, wine, jewelry, flowers and such. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OWL,


HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


FTS

PM,

Interesting to note the OTHER EXPENSES as assigned (by the A). That's a whole new aspect. Also the behaviors that led to the A that cost funds in other areas. If you count that, we lost houses and cars, too.

Will respond to other posters later. Thanks for your replies.

Any others?

Ace

PS HHHHHHHAAAAAAAPPPPPPYYYYY Birthday, Owl. Hope the mods know so you'll have a cake by your posts tommorrow.

I lost everything. My husband left me and 3 kids in a bad way. We went without electricity for 1 week, and that really sucks in a rural area of TX. All my stocks, 401K, Mutual Funds, etc. are gone. Bankruptcy on my record, lost everything - house, vehicles, and now have horrible credit for the next 7 - 10 years. Moved from a 5 bed home to a 2 bed apt. He really fought on the child support, claimed he was "soo broke" but was able to get her a customer made engagement ring. And all for nothing, because now she moved to a different state. Turned out she didn't want to marry him after all. Divorce is final tomorrow; I guess he was only worth having while he was married.

So I'm starting over from scratch. With really bad credit.

GRRRR, Acey ... you had to bring this up!

He took our 22K from the 401K and blew through it on a month long whirlwind trip to Florida, for which he paid everything, including her them park tickets, hotels, food, gas, EVERYTHING. It went for an apartment, new TV, dishes, a guitar, and everything else you need to set up house on your own. Mind you, he STOLE the money, without my knowledge.

He also racked up a credit card to the tune of 10k which he is now paying off, interest on it at 30% because of late payments.

We spend tons on counseling as well.

When he was gone, I got extra work load of 800 more a month. Where does it go? To pay off all this crap. So essentially I am working extra to pay for his lay.

This is why he has a second job now.

All this part makes me ill. He'll work himself into the grave for all of this. Wow. I hope it was worth it.

We got off light. We had to move to ensure NC - cost us $10k rent and other expenses. That's pretty much it.

I can't really complain so much after reading some of these, people have really suffered, what a chain reaction!
if I look at counseling, that has been countless dollars
my rent, I moved out and still paying on a house that I should be in.
hmmmm, lots of women, lots of hotels, gifts,
I guess it adds up
some sad sad stories thats for sure.

Whoa,

I have no complaints in this dept compared to the horror stories I have read so far. In fact our money problems have nothing to do with affair, if it did I think I would have divorced him, I would have not paid for that.

Hi Chrisner,

This is very scary for many of us now:


Sometime, I'm going to post some related thoughts on the RECOVERY FORUM "50 SOMETHING" thread. Glad to see you wandered over there today.

It seems to be therapeutic for some of us to let it all hang out $o we can face reality and act proactively (like you are) instead of re-actively like many others....and when that happens, our social services will NOT be able to handle the fall-out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But with God ALL things are possible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have a miracle in the financial restoration area to share later. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for sharing and getting this thread started. I'll try to respond to all soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ace

I read somewhere (or heard somewhere) that a divorce can cost a million dollars all told over a lifetime when the impact on the kids is calculated in, plus the expenses of two households afterwards. I can't remember the source though. I remeber I heard this right before a court date and then told my WH this. His face turned white and I really thought he was going to pass out.

I have no savings, no retirement, no health insurance benefits, living in a rent-to-own home that is much smaller and older than the home we were living in when he left for OW. I work in food service and my feet are still hurting from two weeks ago LOL. The lucrative career field I quit to be a stay-at-home-wife/mother has changed and I can't depend on it for steady income and benefits.

WH was making $55 per hour when he and OW 'hooked up'... (word around town is she was a real 'mall rat' and attracted to the $ plus she tries to pretend she's 'high class', I think she was just a temp secretary where he worked and then was selling candles at home parties, she had a kid from another man and didn't even have her own place yet, was staying in an apartment with some female friend or relative)

Silentlucidity,


Y'know, meremortal's info is quite sobering but I wanted to reply to your post yesterday first(......eventually I'm hoping to get to all.)

I'm assuming you're around the same age as PWC (btw....remind me of the PW....I think 'C' was for Chuck or Chunk or something like that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). So that would give you roughly 30-40 years of 'working income' based on retirement at the usual time.

But "usual" is changing. Most of us baby boomers will be reinventing ourselves (another topic for the 50 + or = Thread). GenXers (born after 1965) and GenYers (when that line starts is still debatable).....will probably do the same.

My point is....don't give up hope. Retirement of the future will involve doing things you are passionate about.....for pay. At least that's what the 'experts' say.

One retirement model could have sort of a "commune" approach.....we're all bartering and trading services to survive!

In the end, trusting God for guidance has helped my FWS and me keep peace in the face of 6 digit financial devastation even before the A.

Ace

My XH didn't have an A... but his post-M relationship bears striking resemblance to one.

He began by paying GF rent instead of his credit card bill. That even affected my credit as he'd neglected to remove me from the account as he'd agreed to in the divorce agreement ... took me 2 years to fix that. His card went into arrears and his credit went down the toilet.

He cashed his 401K. He put 2/3 of it into our business (at my request - trying to save him from himself at that point, at least in the business he might get it back). He whizzed the other 3500 into the wind.

He used up all his airmiles. He used to travel a lot for business and he had a reserve of airmiles in case one of us had to travel home for a family emergency (sick relative, etc.) - those were gone. Not a huge deal... but our parents are getting older, and his dad was sick last fall.

When he moved GF and her kids in, he spent the next year in overdraft. His bank mail still comes to my house, and I can't even tell you how many of those little envelopes that notify you that you're overdrawn and thanks for the $30 service charge arrived in that time. I had stacks of them for him - left them for him at the shop - every few months I would hand him a pile of them and ask him to take them home. I don't even know the thousands he spent just in overdraft fees, not to mention the money spent on her and her kids to get him into overdraft.

To my knowledge he still owes back taxes in our home country. I doubt he's ever paid those and the interest and penalties probably exceed the original debt.

I managed to preserve my good credit (after I fixed the blight that XH placed there)... manage my limited income... stay afloat. He seemed to have thrown caution to the wind.

Our business used to pay his cell phone bill - $60/month or so... UNTIL one day I opened a bill for $700. Ummm no. Since then he's complained to me that GF's daughter rang up $200 for "her share"... he got GF and her DD each a phone on his account. When they moved away again he either had to pay a fat termination fee OR he may still be paying for those phones... I'm not sure.

We were nearly foreclosed upon last year when he was so far overdrawn that the bank bounced his mortgage check for our house... I had to do some fast dancing to borrow to put that right - then I had to take him to court for contempt to get repaid - add $1000 in legal fees (judge made him pay half back to me - he should have paid it all to me - I didn't cause that).

It's amazing how irresponsible people become in relationships like that. When he and I were courting back in the stone age, neither of us would have done that to ourselves, let alone to each other.

I just don't get it.

GF eventually moved away again, but XH is still very much 'involved' with her. I guess once the money tree was bare, she moved back home... but for whatever reason they are still in contact. A "true love" wouldn't sponge up your money and then leave (she never worked in the year she was here). I guess XH doesn't realize that yet. Sad.

JinGA

My FWW eventually gave up her job and about a year later found one that pays about half as much. In total, we're making about 80% of what we used to be making prior to her A. Doesn't seem like much of a drop, until you factor in the annual expenses. Our savings rate has dropped significantly.

But, she says, she wanted to leave that job anyway...

Fled,

You deserve triple gold stars for your tolerance in all this. One other thought. That OC must have a purpose of some sort to be determined later. His/her existance is not his/her fault....sorry I don't remember the gender if it's ever been stated. God must have had a reason....and although it's a tough situation, you are investing in that reason....regardless of the vessel that created him/her.

No, I'm sure it wasn't that much fun.....and it's still not fair, ..... but I trust God will care for that OC somehow....and you will get the blessing.

Ace

Cost:

In months leading up to and through the A money was spent on "things" including stuff for the kids and grandchild without my knowledge (can anyone say "Independent Behavior?") that either resulted from or contributed to a sense of entitlement. This also included clothing (she had recently lost a lot of weight) and just a bunch of "stuff" that may or may not still even exist.

It was probably the spending of money that led me to begin to withdraw and may have reinforced her entitlement that led to the affair, among other things.

Real cost is in terms of relationships. Not only was our M damaged, but she can no longer simply go to visit her step mother, who is OM's next door neighbor.

While she was caring for SM's house and father while SM was on active duty W developed friendships with people in that area that she met through the church where her father's memorial service was held. She still has a very good friend (female) in that area and they email and talk on the phone several times per week. Since the end of the A they have only met twice, once while my W was on a business trip in the general vicinity and once when W & I went to KY for the funeral of SM's father last August. We were the only family members to make the trip BTW.

It also cost her in terms of strained relationships at both the church in KY where she attended when there as well as at our home church where I am an elder. She burned so many bridges by pushing people away and attempting a defer her guilt that she no longer feels connected to many of the women she was extremely close to for years.

In none of these cases was it the fault of the other women that their closeness has subsided but rather because she herself withdrew from being close to them in order to pursue and sustain her relationship with OM. To lead her double life, she not only withdrew from me, but also DS and even her sisters including her twin. She and her twin were once so close that I often said that if her sister stubbed her toe, my W limped for days. When they lived 800 miles apart, they bought identical leather coats on the same day and neither knew about the other's purchase for nearly two years when we visited her sister out east. They are still close, but not nearly as close as they once were.

I do find it interesting that my wife is having the hardest time reconnecting to the the people she was closest to before the A and that it was these very same people that I first chose as recipients for exposure. These are the folks that gathered around and helped her end the A and assisted her in getting through withdrawal. My guess is that she harbors a sense of guilt that just isn't going away, though it might in the future. I do pray that this is the case.

One additional cost was that within a couple weeks of Dday while W and I were away for the weekend DS, then only 20, was stopped after a party where he had been drinking and lost his driver's license for 6 months. I felt badly that I had not remained closer to him and had left him on his own too much because of what I was dealing with. I did help him during his ordeal in a way that he probably still doesn't understand. The officer who stopped him is one of my customers and gave him a break for my sake. He wrote him up under the zero tolerance statute (applies to under age drinking) as opposed to busting him for DUI, which would have cost him much more in terms of loss of driving privileges as well as money. In addition, when the tow truck came to drag his car away, the driver was another friend of mine who locked his car in his shop instead of in the impound lot where things tend to disappear from cars left overnight. Considering the stereo system we put in that car, he is very fortunate that he wasn't left with only the wires.

A lot more people end up paying for an A than just the WS, BS and the OP and his/her S.

Since the infection I got this past winter is one that seldom even occurs in healthy people it has been suggested that it may be the result of severe stress that my immune system was ineffective in repelling the bacteria. THE stressful event of the past couple of years was dealing with the A and trying to save our M because of it. So even my illness, the loss of income it produced, the expense of hospitalization and medications, doctor costs and our inability to take a vacation this year are likely all additional costs of poor boundary enforcement...AKA an affair.

Mark

Hey Owl,

You must not have registered your birthday with MB....don't see the cake icon. Tell ya what....why don't you just share the one I made Pep since she's retired. Go to the Notable Posts (pined to the top of GQII) and click on the next to the last page. I put a link there to the "Did Pep Leave?" thread (no time to link it now) and you can have a bite of Pep's cake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />......yeah......she left right after I baked it for her. Took me an hour....glad I did it, too.

You said:


You're so right. Mr Goodstuff talks about how his M is BETTER than before the A....... mine is too....and it is priceless.

Thanks for your input.....and Happy Birthday. (BTW, what was the surprize? If you care to share, please put it on the "shootin' the breeze thread " on the recovery forum.)

Ace

Hi WhoMe,

You raise an interesting point:


This is actually my main motivation for starting this thread.

Financial Literacy Education....one of my passions despite the fact that we are in 6 figure debt, not even counting the mortages (yep ~ two of them...maxed out equity at one time.)

The entire equation changes when you fling in the effect$ of the A.

My FWH says that on the emotional damage alone, he would have never entertained taking up with that OW if he had known how long it would take me to recover. H is quick to forget and move on....one his biggest flaws (as well as one of his greatest assets). Unfortunately, he forgot that I am not like that.....my memory keeps me clinging to the past...but I just had a huge "ahah moment" which I described on my Trials & Smiles Thread. (Of course, the WS fog clouds all judgement so I realize that his claims might or might not have been true.)



I guess my hope is that by the time this thread slides away, at least one lurker will have been affected whether or not he/she registers to let us know.


In that respect, distance does help, but "less than 10K" doesn't sound that cheap to me, though. Was that for the A itself or recovery?



Part of me still wants that type of satisfaction b/c we only exposed to her H and he did/does NOT seem to care enough to seek any more info. On day I may find out, but I'm working on 'not caring'. She was such a liar in denial that justice will serve her on its own. Don't want to waste anymore thought power on her now, anyhow.

I do hope she's reading these forums and fixes herself and her marriage. I think that hearing my WH say that "she was ugly, boring and a worse liar than him b/c she's in denial and probably already cheating with another guy" brought as much satisfaction as I needed to smile because he said it without my asking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your input, Who.

Ace

Chrisner:

"Wayzilla"? LOL Too funny!

I just remember that when WXH was involved with OW #6 of 7 WE ended up with a debt to the IRS. We were living in Denver and he was hired as a computer consultant in Albuquerque, NM. He had been unable to find work in his field for 6 months and this was just a one month contract so off he went promising to come home weekends... the contract got renewed month by month so the job lasted 10 months. Coming home every weekend turned into every two weeks... and then even less often... I went down to NM with our daughters to stay with him for a week two different times.

Anway I had made an appointment for him to go get the taxes done two different times but both times he changed his mind and didn't come home for the weekend. Next time I brought it up he told me not to 'nag' him - he would take care of it. So I never mentioned it again. Contract ended, he was unemployed for 6 months and owed the IRS all the taxes for the 10 months he worked in NM (at about $50 per hour).

Guess what he was doing when he didn't want to come home weekends? I found out he was living with a coworker the last 6 months he was there - only kept the apartment for show if/when I showed up for a visit (or for when she would get mad at him for 'cheating' on her with OW at work LOL) And guess what her job at the company was? She was the head of the accounting department! I LB'd him big time on that: "So you two couldn't stop ****ing long enough for her to do your taxes for you?!?!?" We couldn't even start paying the IRS debt for a while because he was unemployed then. It took 7 years to pay off the IRS debt plus interest and penalties!!! While we were living in an RV the IRS even tried to put a lien on the RV even though it was our sole place of residence - not our vehicular toy - but where we had to live. I don't even remember what the total was by the time we got it all paid off - tens of thousands of dollars.

And we had just gotten that paid off, were renting a home and talking about finally building or buying our dream home, WH was making $55 per hour, had some $ in a 401K account... and he started up with OW#7.

I also forgot to mention that when oldest daughter was hospitalized with severe depression (after her daddy became alien WH) she was moved to a group home. They are taking the expense of that group home out of my paychecks. Her hospital bill was $800 per day (adult psychiatric ward); she was there a total of almost 3 months. So far I've not been told that I have to pay that back (she had applied through social services for benefits to cover all the expenses of her treatment)

Also right before WH moved out (after behaving as an alien for a year) I was diagnosed with severe hypertension. I was an otherwise very healthy, athletic person: Figure skating/ice dance several times per week, taught a 2 hour long Irish step dance class every week, water aerobix class almost every week, was only about 10-15 pounds overweight. My doctor said I didn't need to lose weight and that the hypertension was stress induced. Of course all sorts of medical tests were done to check for corresponding heart or kidney problems, but nothing besides stress was found as cause. I was worried because WH was acting so weird and WH had never helped me deal with his past adulteries - just expected me to 'get over it' and 'trust' him...

Hey Lindy,

Saw on the "50 something Thread" that you were multi-tasking....trying to post and bleach your hair at the same time. Did it turn [color:"green"] green[/color] ?

That's the color of this [color:"green"] money [/color] thread so I thought I'd mention it. OH>>>>I used your idea regarding the hungry lions (verses being foggy) so check out the edited Lion/Buffalo version.

How did your MC session go dealing with your and your husband's financial status/future/spending habits? Email me if you'd rather....ya really should have your own recovery thread, y'know. LOL

Thanks for posting.

Ace

Hi Meremortal,

Chrisner is hilarious, isn't he? He wrote a funny poem on some thread lately but I don't remember where....I'll try to find it.

Check out the video link Chrisner posted on "50 Something + or - Thread" about a young buffalo calf that survives a lion pack attack. It's great and we have a discussion going about an analogy of how the clip relates to MB principles.

Sorry to hear about your tax issues. That's a whole new aspect of this 'sucking' sensation brought on by the infamous A's.

My H had hypertension during his A.....in fact that trust issue is what we used to cover our A trust trauma after D=Day #1.....my lack of trust when he secretly concealed his trip to the ER and all the meds he was hiding in his truck. Amazing, he's all healthy now....except for a bout with sciatica that he's nearly over...thank God.

If you ever remember the source of your A cost estimates, please post it for all of us. I do not doubt that for a bit.

Thanks for posting, MM.....btw, did you see that Orchid was paging you earlier?

Ace

Flyrec: So sorry for your devastation....on so many aspects. You deserve so much better and it sounds like he got what he deserved now that she dumped him. How sad. Do you have a strong support group where you live? I'll be praying for you.

*****

RLT: You posted your recap the same day you went into a funk. SOOOOO Sorry....but maybe your venting and getting it out helped. Sounded like things were going better yesterday (based on your MF Fun Thread post). It is quite staggering, isn't it. Second job gives hime lots of time to grow remorseful if he isn't already.

*****

Hey BK,

You claim you got off light with only 10K in A expenses. Wow! Was that a guess or did you actually add it up one day? We got off light, too since OW lives across the country and they never met. But I would pay millions (if I had it) to get back my ability to trust.

*****

doingfine,

I'll bet you'd be surprised if you added up all your extra expenses due to your H's A and behaviors surround it. It's mind-boggling how this WS fogginess numbs so many $enses, isn't it? Hope you and your H find a resolution, soon...and I still think you should have your own thread...I'd post to it.

*****

THANKS TO ALL WHO POSTED (FIRST PAGE) TO THIS PERSONAL QUESTION THREAD. I try to respond to all immediately but got behind. Thanks for your patience....hope to get to the 2nd page soon.

Ace

Wow, JinGA,

You are one strong trooper to endure all of that. Hope things are getting better now.



Amazing how large a role "the wind" plays in these relationship recovery (or lack of it) processes. 'Thowing caution to the wind' is even life-threatening when you consider STDs. But financial devastation can cause such stress it could almost create as much havoc.

Thanks for sharing on this thread and all over the boards.

Ace

Hi MiM,

You said:



I don't know your sitch, but I'm assuming OM worked at the forfeited job. It's amazing the sacrifices needed to be made that are never ever considered when the passion for lusty pleasure overwhelms one. But you're still married, it's a good thing; you can find ways to make more money, but the R and M are irreplaceable.


I hope it was worth it.



This statement puzzles me....does it mean she would have stayed in spite of its impact on your potential recovery?

Is your present sitch linkable on one thread somewhere? I'm curious about your story.....vaguely remember you posting to TJ3 awhile back.....or did you?

My H's job termination (due to habits that also led to his A) put a serious damper on all of our finances...retirement, savings, bill-paying.....everything. In fact, that's one of the reasons I was so willing to sell the house, take the equity (he said I could have all....generous of him, wasn't it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) and start over.

But God (had to be a miracle) changed his heart and he saw that I was serious on D=Day #4. Maybe that's one slim benefit of multiple D-Days....ya get to practice til ya get it right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Now he has 2 new jobs paying nearly twice what he was making and with half the stress......also, one job is his passion that he's done for years without pay, but now people are actually willing to pay him nearly 3 times his previous hourly rate.

I will share the entire miracle after it'$ complete, but three words sum it up for now: God Is Faithful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for posting, MiM.

Ace

Hi Acey,

I wasn't guessing. Rent double bills etc. It was $10k.

would have been debt free except the house about 9 months earlier due to affair #1 counting a nyc trip she took to "think things through" and money for her apartment she only stayed in a few months after moving out. probably about $4000. affair #2 really hits home as after i refinance to buy her out (we are getting seperated), i'll end up with a bigger mortgage than when we started and that's after paying for 7 years on a 15 year mortgage. i guess it's good the house value went up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> also i was less than a year from quitting my dayjob and just working from home and now i need a new plan for that.

as we all know the real cost - emotional agony to the entire family including children and parents can't really be measured.

Good point, A2B2A,

So sorry for your situation and how it changed in the last few year$.

I posted earlier that I would pay millions (if I had it) to recover my ability to have blind trust back.

The emotional agony is un-recoverable in any form of compensation......at least in this life.

Which brings up another point that might TJ my own thread, but oh well.

We can't take anything to heaven except our soul/spirits. I'm assuming the aliens forcing such destruction in our families will be banned at the gates. If we see our pre-A spouses (assuming they're there, too), will the memories of their Alien-driven behaviors that destroyed us be intact?

I guess this is another aspect of why "Affairs Suck" that goes beyond the financial implications~~~> although in a sense, the two are related.

How else do Affairs Suck besides financial and emotional?

Ace

Wow, Big K,

I guess I was asking a rhetorical question more than disputing your figures. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

At any rate, it's inspiring to see from you who have recovered that it is priceless whether it (the A itself or recovery efforts) cost 10K or a gazilllllionK. It gives us great hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
Acey

If I remember correctly, the Pharasees (sp?) asked Jesus the same kind of question except it was about this woman that married seven brothers one at a time. (I think I've got my story straight.) The question was when they get to heaven who will be her husband. Jesus said (basically) that there would be no husbands and wives in heaven.

So I guess having a spouse is only an earthly pleasure (or pain depending on how you look at it) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PM,

You're right...what was I thinking? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

End of my own THREADJACK. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Back to Affair$ $ucking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Ace! It all just sucks! I do have good friends though. I have a bio Mom, Step mom, and Dad, which are 3 of the most selfish, self centered people I know, so family was of no help whatsoever. They do not value marriage or family much at all. I really had no idea or guidance whatsoever going through this, went through a terrible depression. I didn't discover MB until Wayyyyyyyyy too late; I might have had a chance, otherwise. But i did everything wrong, LB'd every time I saw him, just was a complete basket case. But I got through it, I'm stronger now, and I know that no matter what happens I will be okay, as will my kids! And they are awesome kids, and love me so much in spite of everything! As I do them!

Unfortunately, I found out that OW is not out of the pic. My sons, the 2 oldest, were out of town with their grandmother, so my ex only got my daughter, and I found out OW was there the whole time he had her. Our divorce was fin al Friday, and she had her granddaughters there, who my daughter consider her friends, and they had a "party," OW bought cupcakes for them, bought presents for my daughter, etc. It was upsetting for me. If they want to celebrate amongst themselves, that's fine, but don't drag my daughter into it. Don't celebrate the demise of her family, and don't try to buy her love! It's terrible how they think. And they are telling her they are getting married. This woman is 12 years older than my ex, has 2 granddaughters, and married 5 times!

Nothing I can do, so I choose to live well. I will not see them as much as I can avoid them, I will not ask, and I will not worry about details in their lives. They do not exist anymore. My children and I are the only ones in my world!

Thanks, Everyone!

[[[[[[[[[[[FLYREC]]]]]]]]]]]

So the D was finalized Friday. Wow, that is tough.


How did you get from depression over losing everything to this state of confidence? Many can benefit from your experiences. I'm proud for you as you should be of yourself and your children.


This scenario might suck even more than losing everything, especially what you said about intermingling your children as if they're one big happy family. AAAAaaaargh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I would be upset, too.


With your positive outlook, Flyrec, you'll heal.....and if a miracle doesn't whomp your EX to his senses (even if the D is final, it has happened), you may meet someone in the future (after you heal) that will treat you with the respect and love you deserve. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll be praying for you. If your whole story is on one thread, please link it for me. Thanks for sharing.

Ace

Well, I don't know about confidence, but my IC tends to think I just naturally have strong survival skills. My own parents married as teens b/c mom was pregnant. That marriage lasted only long enough for my brother and I to be born, 2 years. We lived w/mom's family til I was 5, not much contact w/dad, but then her mother (my grandmother) passed away, so we were sent to live w/dad while mom went to pursue her own goals. Dad married Stepmom, it was not a happy marriage and ended when I turned 18. So Bio mom and dad are eternal teenagers, and stepmom is bitter, resentful person who tolerates me b/c she loves my kids.

I married at 20, managed to get my college degree in 1999. I look back now and see there were warning signs, but I was young and dumb and in love, and I just didn't know anything, and I wouldn't listen to those who did. He cheated twice while we dated, which I did not know about until after we were married. We were only married a year when he had an EA with a girl he had a crush on. He swore it was never a PA and I used to believe him, but now who knows. It really doesn't matter anymore. But now that I think about it, I think he is one of the serial cheaters b/c I now remember there were always women at work or activities which he talked about and it seemed he developed crushes on them. I never really thought about it at the time.

I had an EA in May - June of 1999. I don't know why, even to this day. I just developed a crush on some guy and enjoyed the attention. It became very close to becoming a PA, but when it came down to the choice, I couldn't do it. I chose my husband and family. I told him everything, which caused a lot of hurt and pain and stress for the next 3 years. Slowly, it seemed to get better and by 2002 I thought we were out of the woods.

Anyhow, D-Day was in June 2006. He had moved out Feb. 2006 to "sort things out for himself." But I had sensed things weren't right for about a year before that. He had completely emotionally detached from us and didn't care much about anything - finances, house, kids, etc. He worked nights, I worked days, we never saw each other. And I was not pleasant when we did, because I was running on empty the whole time. I mostly remember just being completely, horribly exhausted during those last 3 years before he left. I was working full time and I was responsible for everything with the kids, house, bills, etc. He worked and slept, for the most part. Of course, he doesn't remember it that way. And when we were together, I was a real B!tch! So he met someone at work and decided he liked her better!

When I finally knew for sure, in June 2006, was when the depression really hit! I fell apart at work, couldn't stop crying, and my friends and supervisor there were wonderful! They really helped me through this dark time. I wasn't eating, wasn't sleeping, lost about 25 lbs in a couple of weeks. I would stay up on my patio chain smoking all night until the early AM's, which eventually caused problems for my lungs. I would wake up in the night with anxiety attacks, feeling like I couldn't breathe. I was numb, and I couldn't feel any joy or excitement with my kids, I was just going through the motions.

And, as I said, I did everything wrong! I let him be a cake eater for a long time, he kept going back and forth. One week he wanted to work it out, the next he wanted OW. He blamed me for everything wrong in the marriage, all sorts of stuff I knew nothing about. I begged him on my knees to come back, fell apart crying, I'd verbally attack him everytime I saw him, which did lots of damage to my kids and they started having problems in school. I let him dictate the amount of child support he would give me. I did not expose, and only selectively. I finally did relate to his parents. I let him play me. I had a "revenge affair." Like I said, I did everything wrong!

My Dad and Bio Mom, who are both on their 4rth marriages, said things like "You're better off without him." Maybe true, but didn't really help whatsoever. My stepmom's attitude was that she had her own problems and couldn't concern herself about mine. No support from family at all.

Thank God, I do have some really good friends. They invited me over on Friday nights when he had the kids. They loaned me money when times were tight, they were there when I needed someone to talk to and cry on. I talked to my doctor, who prescribed AD's. Talked to the schools, who informed me about my behaviour and how it was affecting my kids, so I stopped attacking my ex every time I saw him. I took a major road trip during Thanksgiving with the kids, and it gave me a lot of time to think. It really was a turning point for me and I realized I could never change him, I could only change me. It was up to me if I was going to let this get me down, and be a bitter, unhappy person for the rest of my life. I chose to be happy. It's not perfect. I have my moments when I break down. But I see an IC and that helps a lot. I quit smoking the beginning of this year, and got a new job the beginning of the summer, and I love it! I'm working out, eating healthier, and no longer take the AD's.

So, that's my story! Sorry it's so long.

Ace, I'm late replying but thanks for the postive feedback.

Things are OK with me - the business is sucking me dry but that's par for the course.

When I think of where we *could be* if XH woke up one day and decided to repair and rebuild - we *could* have it all - we did have it all. I don't really have any personal debt (lots of business debt!), neither does he at this point because he killed his credit. Once GF left him he paid off his bad debt and closed his credit card account. The downside is his credit score is likely in the toilet and he has nothing to fall back on in an emergency.

My good credit is intact, I recently finished paying for my vehicle. XH holds the mortgage (for now anyway), but that's the only debt he's got, unless he hasn't paid up those old back taxes from our home country (dunno about those - they won't affect me unless I refi the house in my name if there's a lien).

Money is just money - like others, I'd pay every cent I own to change things and have a good marriage to him again. He's out of town now - instead of going to his GF's, he chose to go home to visit his parents - that's a good move on his part, IMO. I don't know what the "status" is between he and GF - but it's dying an extremely slow, painful death.

I keep hoping that maybe once she's out of his system completely (read: she finally cuts contact because she's found another ripe sucker...) he may reconsider things - I can't imagine that he could possibly think that life with me was nearly as bad as some of the things he's gone through with her (and that's only things I know about - God only knows what else has transpired that I don't know about). I don't know that he will, and I don't know that he won't. So I'm just carrying on doing my thing, keeping my head above water and making the best life I can for myself and the kids. If XH wants to catch up to us and join us down the road - that door is still open, at least for now.

I can't say I wouldn't have chosen to divorce him in hindsight - we were stuck in a horrible rut that no amount of effort on my part was able to "fix" - he had to choose to fix himself, and he only chose to do that after the fact. So perhaps it was a means to an end, and I guess if he's better now (for the most part - got treatment for his depression and became more functional again), then to some extent it was "worth it". It was the only way I could let him know that I was serious about enforcing boundaries - because nothing else was effective.

There are times when I wish I could turn the clock back, at least part of the way -but I can't do that. All I can do now is look ahead, learn from the past, and not repeat the same junk over. I haven't been the sharpest tack in the box either - I've made some stupid mistakes too.

Anyone in a state of marital conflict, or the fallout of a divorce, is in a sucky situation.

JinGA

Hi Flyrec,

You are an inspiration. I hope you continue your individual recovery and have peace in all your choices.


I, too married at 20 and gutted out my senior year to get my degree. It's tough, I know.


If you read my Mr. Romance Sage attached to my sig line, you might realize you had an EA for the same reason I had several. (Actually, as you'll see, mine were different, and I called them AEA's.....you'll see why.)


My first D-Day was also in June 2006. I actually did OK until D-day #3 7 weeks later. That was gnarly, but I learned to lie by ommission quite well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Good for you, FlyRec. It would be great if you started a thread on the Recovery forum to give others hope. One of your other posts (on your first thread, I think) mentioned a court date in Nov. Is that proceeding on track?

So glad you found MB. Please make sure that you know what you want. Sounds like you are very confident, but if you have any doubt, make sure. Miracles do and can happen. Sounds like your personal recovery may involve a few of those.

Keep posting, FlyRec and I'll post to your recovery forum thread if you start one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

JinGA,

You said:


Yeah, it does suck, ....in all areas. But like Flyrec says, we each have the choice to be bitter, angry and full of hate......or choose to be happy and look towards the future....like you said, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And you're right, JinGA, money is just money. Relationships are priceless, even when they may seem to be worthless. As long as the potential is still there, it's got some value.

Mine seemed worthless AND hopeless before the A, but we are now blessed that we appear to be one of the statistical couples who get to experience a better M post A than before. Of course, our M was so low that that's not saying that much....and we are both working hard for what we are finally experiencing.

Thanks for posting.

Ace

Hi, Ace!

I read your story, it is pretty detailed! A lot of people on this site have way more patience than I do. Of course, if I had discovered this site a year ago and actually had a real plan, things might have been different. I was running completely on emotion.

What you said about the AEA was interesting. I guess our situations are somewhat similar. SF with my ex was not a problem til the last 3 years of our marriage. I guess I wanted attention and flattery from someone else. I think a lot of that came from low self esteem growing up. My father criticized me most of my teen years for my weight. He had the idea that all women were supposed to look like super skinny super models. I look back at pictures of myself at the age and realize there was absolutely nothing wrong with my weight or how I looked; it was just HIM!!!

My stepmom was critical, controlling, manipulative, jealous, bitter and resentful. There are issues there that started a long time ago, choices made which didn't involve me yet got taken out on me.

I met the ex at 18, and I think I was really trying to get away from my home atmosphere and belong to someone. I worked hard to go to school, having kids and living on financial aid and loans, and whatever employment my ex had at the time. I have always pushed myself hard to try to be successful. I guess I wanted to hear my parents say they were proud of me. My Stepmom has always been critical of me and how I raise my kids or keep house. She is very into a clean house, to where it's almost OCD. I still do not feel comfortable in her home to this day, like I shouldn't touch anything. She favors my boys and dislikes me and my daughter. I know now nothing I do will ever be good enough for her, so I do not go out of my way anymore. I merely tolerate her for my children's sake.

So, I think my craving for approval is what got me to the AEA. I even fight wih this now. But now my view of the male gender is very tainted, not just because of my ex, but also my ex SIL, who just threw out her abusive, drug addicted cheating husband, and a good friend of mine whose husband gave her an STD after visitng prostitutes! I try to focus on the fact there are good men there, like my brother who has very high morals and is an honorable man, and my Uncle and many on this site, but it's hard.

Thanks, Ace!

Hi Flyrec,

Glad to see you posted your own Recovery Thread on that forum. It will be a good place to vent and grow, even if few read or comment on it. I decided to restart (and rename) my recovery thread "Smiles & Trials II". I think you only have 60 days to edit and I like changing my thread subtitles.



I've never been without electricity or missing other 'survival' resources, but we are similar in our relationships.


I was blessed to have very supportive parents even if both barely had 3rd grade educations. But they emphasized college and although I was fearful to attend, I also pushed hard to succeed and am still working in the field of my degree nearly 32 years after I earned my BA (double major).


Admiration is one of my top EN's, too. I, too fight with overextending my efforts to please, just to receive validation.

You have the potential to not only regain what the affair $ucked from you, but to accomplish far more. And.....on your way, you can encourage many who may have less dire circustances than you've experienced, but may seem more hopeless because they need to change their perspective.

So glad you're posting Flyrec. Btw, how did you arrive at that name? I'm just curious.

Ace

KNITGIRL posted this on the 50 Something (+ or -) Thread (discussing retirement stuff) on the recovery forum but it's relevant to this thread, too.



Then FlameOut came up with an intriguing (sp?) idea that I'll copy here below.

Ace

Here's FlameOut's response:


Anyone have an inclination to enact new "Protection from the A" laws? How about an insurance policy regarding "asset preservation for the betrayed"?

There must be a way to avoid what Knitgirl (and other BSs) are having sucked from their lives when BSs are the offended party. If none exits now, it should for the future.

Any ideas from the legal minds?

Ace

One of my hopes with this thread is to reveal the real cost$ of an affair (a brief fling with pleasure) for any lurkers who might be contemplating having an affair to solve their restlessness or whatever.

Any other insights regarding these topic$ will help.

Thanks,
Ace

Ace,

Additionally, there should be some child support reform. The OC takes precedence over the COM if the OW files for support first. The COM are calculated as needing less to support them and they suffer from the CS given to the OW. Some of these OW get PG on accident (because they are stupid) others, like mine, intentionally pick the WH because they want the child and CS. The courts treat it like the OC would have been raised by both the parents and deserve equality, instead of, the OW planned and monitored her fertility to ensure the outcome, and WH has to pay greater than 50% of OC's support because the HO won't work, she plans to play mommy and live off the dumb wit that she used to get PG in the first place.

Good question, scarey answer.

Like some mentioned above, some of the $ is lost opportunity and somewhat hard to quantify. Here's a short list, but my no means all inclusive;

The first and most damaging financial cost was my FWH buying a biz in another state. This was encouraged by OW and I was put down for not supporting the idea (she had nothing vested in it though!), poor FWH who had to put up with me! Now there wasn't any biz/financial plan, no money was saved to do this, there wasn't any legal/financial professionals sought for advise...FWH bought biz from his "best friend" for $100k after he was laid off from corporate job w/benefits in 2003. There is the commission on the house sale in NJ of $20K, closing costs on house in OH, gain on sale of house was mostly used for biz/to live off of.

Biz has drained us since to the pt of bankruptcy. We will lose equity in house as we are moving and under chapter 13 you can only keep the house if you live in it, otherwise it goes to satisfy the debts...FWH 401k, gone, pension from AT&T, liquidated, stock options from my co. liquidated to survive, credit cards used for biz and for groceries, maxed out at over $100k in consumer debt, 401K loan from my acct. of $30k taken as a distribution as I couldn't make the loan payments...son's college fund, gone, middle son's current college tuition, couldn't pay so MS couldn't go to school, couldn't get a college loan as I couldn't co-sign...school graduation delayed by over two years, MS is starting to make progress with a job/saving $. Oldest son worked at biz w/o pay for 1.5 years to help out, instead it just enabled the biz...accountants/lawyers fees of about $10K and growing, lost pay raises on my side due to inability to handle all of this, medical cost for me for stress related 'stuff and depression...3.5 years of FOW not making any money, FOW is currently selling cars working 55 hours a week and bringing home $280/week...and it goes on and on...

My BS fog was about is thick as they come, or maybe that is my skull! I forced FWH to close the biz at the end of January this year and the dust hasn't settled yet.

On a positive note, I took a job back in NJ with a good company and an excellent pay raise (which will go towards the creditors). I just look ahead to the future and take things one day at a time, and lots of prayer.

This is what "no fault" divorce did. The intent was to avoid long, bitter divorce cases where the spouses dragged each others character through the mud, in public record. Often kids had to be dragged through the muck too as each side had to show who was to blame. The decision of fault played a big role in how the assets were distrbuted and custody issues. So, no fault was to save money, court time and be less painful.

The result is all of the above posts. Did't turn out so well, did it? Now you can just walk away (whether it was affair related or not), take half of the assets, destroy a family and the court moves that process right on through.

There must be a better way...

Fled,

I see your frustration. $ystems suck, too.

Nabohio,

I've been in 6 digit consumer debt praying for a miracle to educate our kids (not sure if the credit apps for student loans would be approved). Our miracle is on the verge of happening....will share when it comes to fruition.

sickofthis1961,

I figured something must have been in place at one time and I will look up which states do and do not have no-fault divorce.

You're right, there must be a better way. IMHO education is the key.......Intellectual, Emotional, Social, Financial, Parental, and Marital....our school system barely covers the first.....

Thanks for posting and to all lurkers, thanks for reading. Hope these concepts deter at least one potential A from coming to pass......I hope.......

How do we undo what we've done as a society? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Ace

[color:"blue"] I posted this on the 50 Something thread recently:[/color]




[color:"blue"] Knitgirl then wrote:[/color]



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] Ace[/color]

Click here for detail$ of our major miracle on my
[color:"red"] [color:"white"] ..... [/color] |
[color:"white"]..... [/color] V [/color]
$miles and Trials Recovery thread .

Ace

God really does resupply. We now drive a car that's paid for, DH's school is paid through a scholarship, I have a GREAT job making very good money, I'm building a 401K, DH is getting design and installation jobs on the side, and we're about to move into a smaller more affordable townhouse for just the two of us because we found a place for our 15 year old nephew to live (major blessing). Life is good and getting better. Definitely miracles happening here.

PM,

After what you've been through, you deserve all the blessings coming your way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Did you see the legal questions that surfaced just before I let this thread slide?

FTS said:



I got the impression somehow that you're working in a legal type profession. Am I right? If so, what's your take on sickofthis1961's perspective:


What are your thoughts, PM or others? Thanks for sharing.

Ace

sickofthis1961 brought up no-fault divorce and how that change negated much of the A-related 'causes/compensation' for the BS in a subsequent 'dissolution of M'.

What might be the 'better way' or is there a way to decrease the deva$tation of No Fault D's?

For instance, if a BS moves from a no-fault state to a traditional D state, is there a residency requirement before filing or being filed against?

What states, if any, are still traditional, and have not passed No-Fault D laws?

If there are no assets, are the debts divided evenly in the No-Fault state even if one spouse ran up all the CCs?

Hopefully I will never need this info for myself, but I feel that others might benefit from it now.

Thanks,

Ace

The one thing my stbxw didn't realize was that in a no fault divorce, she owes half of my medical bills.

That gunshot wound is over $30,000 at this point!

Sometimes karma is SWEET!

I think most states have a residency requirement.

I can't speak to other states but in Texas it's "no fault" and everything's community property except under special circumstances. So it's easy to get D and unless a major battle ensues, everything is pretty much split down the middle (including debts). As for the kids, the measure the Judge uses is "in the best interest of the children."

I know that even though it's a no fault state you can use adultery as a grounds to seek a disproportinate share of the marital property. Especially if one party has not worked or earned less for most of the marriage. Texas even has a form of alimony now to help the party who has not worked or has less income to get on their feet.

Pariah,

Is your story on one thread somewhere? If so, could you link it for me? I have seen some of your posts alluding to your challenges that nearly cost you your life.

How does it work having her owe half of your 30K health debt? Does it come out of once-shared assets sold, or will they bill her or....?

So sorry for your pain. Thanks for posting about it. Karma (or whatever) is somewhat satisfying, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ace

PM....will respond to your post later. Your insights are intriguing, but gotta to go work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi PM,

Thanks for your insights. Glad you have a great high paying job. Are you in a legal-type profession?

This is interesting:


Is there a formal legal term for the "form of alimony to help the less-income spouse recover"?

Also it's interesting that there are provisions related to an adulterous condition to the divorce (or dissolution) in Texas and possibly other states. Is there a term for this, too? I'm going to check this out for a friend who i$ being dumped on big time. The states involved are CA where they were married and Michigan, where he lived at the time he fraudulently represented himself just previous to their M.

Thanks, PM and any others who might know these answers.

Ace

Whenever I see threads about no-fault divorces, I like to bring up information about covenant marriages.

Covenant marriage legislation seemed to have hit it's heyday in the late 90 and early 2000's.

A covenant marriage is, basically, what most people think of as the traditional style of marriage. The marriage can only be dissolved under the "old style" (prior to no fault) rules such as: Mutual agreement, adultery, abandonment, abuse, etc.

Covenant marriages are a voluntary option in 3 states (last I checked) : Arkansas, Arizona, and Louisiana. You can convert an existing marriage to a covenant marriage or couples can choose the option when they get married. (I do not know how that affects divorce in no fault states.)

The reason I keep bringing this up is because as a political strategy, I think it would be much easier to push for this type of legislation than it would to push for unilateral legislation changing existing divorce laws. Politicians are always worried about the next election. The last I looked that the statistics... the volunteers (conversion or new marriages) in the states that have covenant marriages were all substantially less then 10% (less than 5%, really). So, no politician who wants to be re-elected is likely to take a look at those numbers and think that mandating a "return to no-fault" is going to do anything but send him home on the next election round.

If people really want this to catch on -- and to have success in the political arena, I think what needs to happen is that: 1.) they should use the existing boilerplate legislation on covenant marriages (the work has been done!) 2.) Work on education about the benefits of covenant marriages (I bet most people don't even know they exist) and 3.) garner enough voluntary movement towards that type of marital commitment to establish a credible foothold in changing the existing laws.

Since covenant marriages are designed to be voluntary, they're probably much, much easier to get passed through a state government. A lawmaker isn't going to need nearly as much persuading to vote FOR giving people the option of making stronger marriages - it's not controversial (like changing existing divorce laws would be).

I imagine if the percentage of new marriages + conversions went into the majority (50+ percent) of people who were offered covenant marriages then you wouldn't have any problems getting the legislature to consider changing existing no fault divorce laws. But, as long as there is data out there showing that only one half of one percent (or such low numbers) of people are willing to make that commitment -- politicians are simply not going to do anything about it.

If people really want change to the no fault laws.. I think this would be a good strategy to follow. If nothing else, if it were available and people knew about it they would know what type of commitment their fiance' was making to them on their wedding day.

Just my thoughts,

Mys

Hi Mys,

Thank you so much for your insightful post. I cannot post during the day (and had a huge distraction over the weekend), but I'm glad you brought this up.

I will research covenant marriage more, but in the meantime, here is one source of info.

Covenant Marriage Pros & Cons

Intriguing concepts.....I'm also curious about the asset aspect and how division might be affected if/when a couple chooses a Covenant Marriage and one partner has an A as grounds for a D.

Again, I truly appreciate your taking time to introduce this option, Mys. I did not search for no-fault D's when I started this thread but I'm glad sickofthis1961 mentioned it.

Ace

Mys,

Is your story listed somewhere on one thread? If so, could you link it?

I'm still checking up on Covenant Ms and how they're designed to avoid no-fault Ds.

Thanks,
Ace

Er.... I've typed it out a couple of times in various places but I've been around a long time and I have no idea how to find those.

I'd fill it in now but I have a program due tomorrow and I just changed languages ... (starting from scratch).

My point about covenant marriages is that they might be something more possible in terms of realistic legislative action. Or, to be blunt: politicians want to be elected. Though there is lots of 'lip service' out there about "saving marriages" the empirical evidence (50%+ divorce rate) suggests that this type of move would probably not be welcomed by the base constituency (besides.. how many congress people do you think WANT to do away with no fault divorces).

I think that might change if they became much more popular. I don't know if they can, though. This website has an understandable bias towards saving marriages (that's why we're here!) but I don't think that translates into popular support in the public arena. Ex. Look at what goes on in Hollywood.

Anyway, I have to code....have a good evening.

Mys

Media driven marriage busting. Embraced by the American society as a whole.

It was disheartening (but expected) that very little media attention was given to Bill and Hillary's apparent successfull attempt to "WORK" at recovering their M after the media blasted his "indiscretion" all over the world. (I didn't read his whole book, but saw parts where he endured day-long sessions of marriage counseling individually and also together....gave me new respect for both of their efforts.)

Unfortunately, I think you're right, Mys....if the pendulum COULD swing, the uphill battle would probably be ignored by the media and Hollywood-driven glorification of affairs in general.

A whole new aspect to the term "Affair$ Suck"......and we are all paying for this glorification of A's when we rent the DVDs or buy the theater tickets. Me included. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So what's the solution?

Ace

I think it's about expectation. Often, when you hear about celebrity couples hooking up, they immediately start talking about the (inevitable) break up.

I think that creates expectations in the public mind.

I don't think people expect, on their wedding day, to get divorced... but they probably really don't think about just how long “for life” is, either. They don't conceptualize what “worse” really can mean.

Go back to my Grandparent's generation (married over 60 years till he passed away) and you find people who really expected life. Their worse was living through a depression, a world war, high infant mortality and diseases (polio...etc.) that we don't worry about today.

The current expectation is that marriages can and sometimes should end. Back in the day, there probably were people who stayed married despite abuse, adultery, etc. There was a revolution to change that – but part of that revolution also changed the expectations about marriage.


I don't know that there is any one solution.

A solution to differing expectations might be to offer choices – at least pair up the people who want “till death do us part” to really mean that unless there are dire circumstances. And let people who don't want that expectation to pair up. That doesn't fix it on a societal level (children) but it might create some mixed expectations out there with regard to choices – people might not realize that lasting, “till death do us part” marriages are a valid expectation rather than some oddity.

From a pragmatic political point of view, I think the covenant marriage movement has or had potential. These days people are so distracted by the definition of marriage (one man, one woman or whatever) that this issue has gotten pushed to the side of the road. We might have to wait until that gets straightened out before any real progress on this front is made. (I know, it's cynical ... but hey, it's politics)

Heh. I wrote all of that above yesterday (9/12) and just finally got back to it this morning. I love grad school (not!).

Mys

Mys

I had thought this indicated that you were signing off from this thread. So glad you wrote your post yesterday and posted it today.....just as the thread was sliding off into oblivion.

Grad school, huh? Good for you! When do you finish? You mentioned 'code'.....not sure what that means....and also 'languages'...how does that relate?

Like you, I don't know that there is a solution for society as a whole. Your 'expectation' theory seems to be true, but it depends on the individual's environment. (Media impacts that in a huge way.)

For us, if we had D'd, it would have been the first in our family. I'm sure that played a part in my changing my mind to work on recovery instead of proceeding to plan D......even if I had been seeking a way out of our 32 years of (my) misery.

Maybe Covenant M's can make a comeback during the upcoming political cycles. Wonder which candidates might broach the subject. Any thoughts?

Ace

I just started — this is my first semester as a grad student (finished my BS in the spring) and I also teach here at the college. There really should be a thread somewhere on how badly school impacts marriages -- one of highest rates of divorces comes from the "in school or just out" demographic and I know why.

I think I'll be done in 2 years. I'm getting my master's in computer science. Coding was a reference to writing a program to analyze some data. I was trying to use a new (to me) programming language that is better suited for the task (Perl) in an effort to learn it, but ended up falling back on a more familiar, general all purpose language ( C++) in order to meet my deadline. It's finished and turned in now.


I think there will be more luck at the local/state level. Right now, I think everyone's too distracted by the gay marriage debate on the national level. Covenant marriages are implemented on a state by state basis. However, I don't think there's a lot of resistance to them because, as I said, they are voluntary and don't add a lot of overhead to the system. The biggest problem is how badly they are doing in other states.

Mys

Good luck on Grad school. It feels great when they had you that piece of paper.

I would like to live in fantasy land believe in the elimnation of no-fault.

I moved from a no-fault, to a state that will change asset distribution if there is cause.

Hi Mys,

You mentioned:


Congratulations on earning your BS and teaching so quickly. Most colleges require a masters to teach. Interesting that you're earning yours .....is it an intern sort of program?


So what are the main reasons why?

There's a poster on the EN forum (Reprobrate Mind) who used to post on Marriedfor30yrs' thread (Forgiveness ~ Recovery forum)....anyhow he hasn't posted much lately and I'm sure it's because he's in law school. But he was often posting during class! (RM...are you lurking? Married was asking about you on the 50 Something thread!) Like Just Learning, he was seeking info to overcome a crossroads in his M.

Like I mentionoed, Mys, I don't know anything about your sitch, but I'm intrigued as to your theories on how Covenant M's could strengthen families and more recently why/how school dooms some Ms.


Fled, you said:


It seems that if your state is this progressive (or old fashioned, whichever the case may be), wouldn't they make a provision to decrease the OW/OC 'sucking effect' on the father factor if you could prove she intended to be a mooch and a leach? Wouldn't that be 'cause' that you could benefit from without having a D? I obviously do not know how these things work, but it seems that of all the sad stories on this thread, yours and Flyrec's seem to have the worst long-term effects due to system inequities.

There must be a solution somewhere. Not sure what you studied/teach in school, Mys....but are you award if there any new remedies on the horizon? (Changes in no-fault or other-child support procedures)

Thanks,
Ace

Thank you for the congratulations.

Heh. What it's really about is cheap labor. I'm what's known as a GTA (Graduate Teaching Assistant). It's a way for colleges to have low level undergraduate courses taught by people who are getting advanced degrees. They don't pay us very much at all — but at least they give me free tuition.


Time. Time. Time. Time. Time.

Learning takes time. Classes are only the beginning — then you have homework to do and, if you're serious about the subject, lots of outside supplementary reading about current research to really understand what's going on.

One teacher commented: If you're not here from 8am until 2am 6 days a week then you're not really serious about your graduate degree.

Is it really that bad? Well, I'd say I average 7 days a week from 5:30 am to around 7 pm trying to get things done. On a slow week, I'm doing 12 hours a day between reading, going to classes, preparing my classes (I teach), and doing homework.

That doesn't leave a lot left to fill EN's of your spouse. And, even though I have a very patient spouse who is encouraging and is pulling more than his fair share... it is putting a serious strain on the relationship.

You're sort of [email]d@mned[/email] if you do and [email]d@mned[/email] if you don't, too. If you try to take less of a load then it just takes LOOONNNGGER. If you try to get through as fast as you can (consolidate your course load) then you may as well kiss your spouse goodbye on the first day of classes until finals are over.

Of course, all of that might just be because I'm not really smart enough to do things any faster. I have considered that possibility.

I'll give you one clear example of how school messes things up.

Our 10th wedding anniversary fell during Spring Break in '06. We had planned a week away in a cabin in Colorado. Right before Spring Break, my instructor gave us a programming assignment due during Spring Break. H ended up going without me — because there was no possible way I could do the assignment AND go. I made a very poor choice because — just my luck — so many people didn't do the assignment, the instructor ended up dropping it, anyway. I'll never get that time back (not that I'm bitter or anything...)

You see, vacations aren't vacations - they're opportunities for long homework assignments. There aren't any weekends. And, since you're always learning new material, there's no way to accurately judge how long it's going to take you to figure something out. It's life without boundaries (assuming you want to do well in school and actually pass).


Mmmm? Asking what?


Here's the basic summary.

Together 15+ years (met in college the first time around, he was my math tutor). Married 11(we lived together before marriage.)

No affairs.

No children.

I post mostly on EN's..or used to. I tend to post a lot about boundaries and POJA rather than affairs. Or, the occasional political thread or (even though I shouldn't) the occasional religious discussion.

I don't much post about actual affair stuff (Plan A, Plan B, exposure) though I've tossed the occasional thought in a thread.

Mys

Just as an aside....

Consider that any time external boundaries for a marriage are hard to protect — marriages are in danger.

School isn't the only culprit.

Think of military marriages - where you have enlisted personnel who can be ordered away from their families for months - years at a time. Look at how quickly those marriages are degenerating and the problems that spring from that.

Any time you are in a situation where the external time constraints are unbounded (15 hours isn't a realistic reality)— it's inevitable that marital strain will result.

Some times and some people are put in situations (like our military) where there is no option - which is why I, for one, am grateful to them for their service. Watching the widespread disintegration of military families has been a true tragedy.

Mys
(military brat)

Hi Mys,

You seemed to quote half of that statement and then wondered:



I think my parens made that a bit confusing; I was making a comment to RM ~ Reprobate Mind, the law student ~ about Marriedfor30yrs asking about him on the 50 something thread. It's a silly thread I started for a diversion on the recovery forum. Check it out sometime, Mys, if your studies are so intense you need a break.

There's a cool link to a buffalo/lions video on YouTube that we kicked around with MB principles analogies. I think it's around page 7 or so....guess I should check. I used to be anti-fun thread until I saw Married Forever's fun threads, so I started one in her honor one weekend when she was struggling and attending an MB weekend....and it's still going 6 weeks later!

I'm amazed that JL has been here for nearly 8 years, you've been her for 5 and RM just registered a few months ago....and none of you have experienced a 'sucking chest wound' also known as an " A ". Yet, you've all been very helpful for those of us who have. And you and RM are in school now (while JL is a scientist who must have a tremendous amount of schooling under his belt).

What motivated you to post (and keep posting) on MB all these years, Mys, JL, and/or RM and others sans A?

Just wondering,

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Myshae, JL, and others sans As,

Even if the life of your marriage has not been "sucked away by an A" what motivated you to post (and keep posting) on MB all these years?

Thanks in advance for your efforts to keep helping others suffering from infidelity.

Ace

Nothing exciting for me. I liked it here. I spent most of my time on the EN's boards as I mentioned and started branching out when many of the ppl I used to post to left (moved on). (It's a slower board.)

I've posted threads there (EN's) about my situation and asking for help occasionally (problems getting needs met or meeting them).

These days, I read because it's a place to come between classes that is something other than technical stuff to read. Besides, it's good to remember not to get stuck in being right (DJ) perspective.

I occasionally have something to say and, if I have time, I post it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

Hi Mys,



Thanks for your contributions to these threads.



Yeah, I see it's good not to get stuck......reading here on MB would help that. Not sure about the DJ reference, tho.

Ace

The CS for the OC is under the jurisdiction of the state that the OC lives in, which fortunately is not ours, nor has it ever been within 80 miles. So It really won't change anything from that standpoint, however, the consequences of inappropriate behavior in the future would be extremely costly now to FWH.

Not really much comfort in that though, is there?

The future........one might say that there is comfort in the boundary represented by such a future "threat". As long as FWH is worthy of his "F" it's not a threat to you.

How extreme is "extremely costly"? What are the consequences of 'extremes'?

In my book Fled, you deserve extreme gold stars for your patience and endurance in your sitch.

(Loved your fishing story on the 30-60 Something fun thread, too.)

Ace

He would lose his family, me, and I doubt would be able to find a shack to live in here.

I do beleive he has earned his "F". But, we both know that it will still be a long road before this $hi! isn't thought about daily.

DS 18's GF has been sleeping with someone else for last 2 weeks. DS found out last night. Put a very blue mood on us. FWH is trying to help me. He knows that this sucks and puts thoughts back to my own D-day. I just know that DS saw a picture that will not leave his mind, it greatly changes his view of his HS sweetheart from the innocent to the ...?

The crap recurs, you hear it all the time, see it all the time, and then the waywards feel validation that everyone is doing it, can't be so bad if it's everywhere. I HATE infidelity. Make up your mind where you want to be, and if it's not where your committed then finish that relationship first before you move on to mess up someone else's life.

Fled

OR......

Make a commitment and stick with it. Period.

Affairs suck dignity, time, significance, trust, value, and in the case like your (when an OC is produced), it could possibly suck the life of an innocent child as well as the natural children who have to suffer ill effects, too.

What could change it? I like Myschae's reference to covenant marriages as an optional alternative. But it seems that it comes down to media hype/pressure and societal's acceptance of wayward thinking as being "normal nowadays."

I just sucks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So, Fled, glad your DH is helping you, but how are you/FWH helping DS with his own version of having his life with GF shattered? Teen-aged cheating.....that sucks more!!!!

Ace

That's a tough one Ace,

DS doesn't know about FWH's A or the OC. Therefore, the philosophical stuff, to me at least, sounds strange. I sent him a care package. We've IM'ed info as he doesn't want to actually be on the phone or video conference. You can cry by yourself with IM. We were talking about boundaries and limits the last two weeks, because her behavior had gotten strange. We talked about him needing to know what behaviors from a girlfriend were okay or not. Where is the line, how can you talk about what isn't okay to get to resolution. If you can't get to resolution then what do you tolerate and what do you not tolerate and throw in the towel. I guess he discovered the throw in the towel line.
We've talked about, how do you recover from this, how long does it take, what do you look for in your own behavior that can hamper a new relationship, what red flags do you stay away from in the first place. All very theoretical at this point. Let him start to think. Maybe he will just apply himself to school for right now?????

Fled

Fled,


You may be surprised what DS18 knows and does not know. HE may very well know, but doesn't want you to know he knows. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This could be a very timely way to show respect for his manhood now that he's 18. You might consider telling him now that he can relate to some of the trauma. There are many threads with this issue discussed....I think "Mark's musings aka rants for newbies" has the links.

Hearing the truth from you could impact his life in a bigger way than trying to 'protect' him and having him find out some other way.....for instance....if the OW brought OC by the house or some outlandish thing like that. OW is a know manipulator and this is his bio half-sibling...no getting around it.

Please at least consider telling him while you can control what is said. If OW gets to do it, the results could be more devastating. I wouldn't let her possibly suck any more life out of your family than she already has.

So sorry for your D-Day triggers. I'll be praying for you.

Ace

P.S. My BF in HS discovered she had a half-sister 20 years later when her mom was dying. She resented her mom for lying by ommission all those years.

No biological ties for my oldest. FWH is his step dad since he was two. It may come out one day but we have decided to deal with it then. This OW is already afraid of my impact on her child. And well she should be, OW believes her child should have what mine do. I agree, OC should have a moral, compassionate, independent, loving parent, that teaches them right from wrong, protects them from harm, does not do selfish things because the parent wants something, even though it's the child that will pay for it. Her child will hear the truth of the entire relationship should he ever show up. Unfortunately, my COM will also have to hear it then as well. In discussion's with other BS's in the same situation there are a number of conclusions. I agree with those that believe the COM should be told when older, but there is no reason to discuss it when the kids can't even understand what adultery is yet.

Fled

Hi Fled,

Just curious as to when this might be from your perspective:



So when will you tell your DS18?

It's so sad that affairs suck the simplicity out of family life.

Ace

I don't plan to tell him until the decision is made to tell the nine year old. There are only two family members which are aware of the A. My brother, and one of my SIL's. Everyone else still believes that DH is wonderful. Until it is necessary for the youngest son to know, or if the OW forces the issue, it will not happen.

I can say now that I feel much stronger at being able to defend my choice to stay and try to recover the M. I could not in the beggining come up with enough strenth of self to stand by the shame and humiliation I felt for not being good enough, (fill in the shortcoming term of choice) for someone I thought was above something so filthy, belittling and hurtful, That I didn't walk away.

I'm glad I stayed and am working it through but I would still give up everything in the world to be able to undo it all and only live a mediocre marriage in my fantasy of what I believed was a good life. I would still take that life over this one any day.

Fled

To twist your preference a bit.....would you rather have the mediocre fantasy of what you 'thought' was a good M (but was only mediocre) or the potential to have a fantastic life amd marriage because the A gave your R a wake-up call it needed?

If I could successfully take the memory-erasure-serum (or shot or whatever treatment there is to forget triggers) and have the potential life we're building b/c of the wake-up call....I might choose this in hind sight over 32 years of detachment....

....Or maybe not. I'll have to chew on this one for awhile.

Ace

I thought things were great. FWH had the A because of FOO and growing up getting away with things, He never had any real emotional involvement with either one. The first A didn't add up to three hours total. The second she was PG after the first time, because she planned it that way and it worked. I don't believe the real thing even with improvements will ever come close to what I believed I had. Even if it does get there, I will forever be dealing with the aftermath of it. It will NEVER, EVER go away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

So, yes I would take my old reality over whatever it might become now. ( What I lost can never be restored or improved on, I was in love with FWH, I had great kids, life, dog, I believed I was the luckiest woman in the world. Reality sucks)


Fled

Fled....if ya haven't fled for the weekend....I think your sitch and mine differ tremendously because mine was an EA with no physically meeting, and yours was not only a short-term PA, but produced a long term OC.

Beeeeeeeeeeg difference. You're right, Fled.....REALITY SUCKS...in your case it $UCKS even more!

How 'bout others who only suffered an EA? Same question.



Ace

Yesterday I heard somebody say on tv that a man being unmarried is as dangerous to his health as smoking two and a half packs of cigarettes per day... that married men live longer than single men.

Just wanted to point out one of the costs of divorce that is not monetary.

Hi Meremortal,



Interesting that you point out how marital status can suck years from a single man's life.... if that stat is true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'd be curious to know what that source was.

I was thinking about this thread today. Glad you bumped it with your intriguing point.....saves me digging or searching for it. (And now I can't remember what reminded me of it either!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So .... in what other ways do affairs (and divorce) suck?

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I would rather have a fantastic life and marriage WITHOUT the affair. We have a great marriage today, IN SPITE OF THE AFFAIR, not because of it. The affair caused enormous damage to our relationship that took years from which to recover.

I agree with you Mel.

My choices in order of preference:

1. Wonderful marriage, wonderful commitment and fidelity, wonderful life forever after. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2. Mediocre (sometimes verbally abusive) Marriage, Infidelity wake-up call, now progressing towards wonderful Marriage and potential for wonderful future.

But what I actually had was:

3. Mediocre Marriage.......detachment, resentment, toleration because it's too much of a hassle to confront.

4. Abusive Marriage and total denial, enabling, controlling, gaslighting, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

***

I seldom had number 1 for 32 years.

I tolerated 3 and 4 for most of that time.

I experienced number 2 and chose to make the effort to overcome challenges.....now may have a shot at #1 for the first time ever for the future.

My FWH now says he would never have confessed his A's....that we would have existed (if we didn't kill each other first) until 'death do us part'. That's why I was so calm on D-Day #1.....I thought "Yay!!!! Now I can get out!"

(Then DS25 challenged us to fight for our family....so we did..... and still are.)

Thanks for your response, Mel. I tried to change the title of this thread when no one else responded to this subtitle, but it was too late, the title was locked. (Thanks for your post, too, Meremortal.) Glad to hear your perspective.

Ace

[color:"red"] Oooops, maybe I should have started a new thread instead of bumping this one. I can't change the sub-title and it does not reflect thi$ new topic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, the posts are more important than the sub-title. [/color]

Some great questions came up related to financial management on the Enblaing/Control thread. It seems that the answers could relate to other ideas posted on this thread so I thought I'd move that part over here.

To preface, I asked my DH about the balance in the checkbook (he never balances) before I deposited a check we discovered would incur a $50 NSF fee. Was this being a controller or being responsible?

Artor and mvg we kind enough to respond as follows:

****

Re: HELP!!!! How do I stop trying to CONTROL my FWH? [Re: mvg] #3344586 - Wed Nov 28 2007 06:13 AM


Artor said:



Great questions, Artor. The reasons for the other account have changed over the 12 years since we opened it. (I was commuting 3 hours full time, often staying overnight at my job 90 miles away .....so trying to juggle the one checkbook didn't work.)

Then mvg asked:




mvg also asks great questions so I'm posting both on this Affair$ $uck thread. Enabling and controlling can affect financial management as well as other behaviors.

In the meantime, my short answer to both questions is "I don't know". The long answer involves my laziness to confront the situation relating to Artor's questions.

****

I will post my answers to both questions later, but I have to go to work......dang, I wish I could continue this discussion all day.

Thanks for reading,
Ace

[color:"green"]EDITED TO ADD: Artor shared this helpful post on the Enabling/Controlling thread. It is relevant here as it relates to mvg's (and my) questions: [/color]



Thanks for asking, mvg....and for sharing, Artor.

Ace

Ace, I've been thinking about what Artor suggested...a balance the checkbook night...That could be a great way to 'have your way' PLUS teach some fiscal responsibility. Ok I'll admit up front this might not be the best MB way but it is a good idea.

Is your H not financially savvy or (excuse the word) lazy about finances?

If he doesn't feel comfortable or maybe truly doesn't know how to balance the checkbook, maybe a night of checkbook balancing would help him. My H would/does not have a clue how to do this. I'm hoping to remedy this by getting him involved, because should something happen to me he NEEDS to know.

If he's (excuse again please) lazy, maybe routine will form a habit.?

I'm assuming here he sees that he's not good/responsible/whatever with his checkbook?

One thing my wife and I have done is to have one of us look at the bank statement and the other the check register to quickly find checks/entries that are on the statement and those that aren't.

Often, I'll go on-line to get an updated list (since the statement) of what has cleared and what is still outstanding. She'll read off an entry that wasn't on the statement and I'll find it in the on-line statement to say it has cleared. We are then a bit further ahead for the next statement.

I do know how to balance a checkbook, but I'll admit I'm not as careful to balance to the penny as my wife is. If I'm within a dollar (or so), I'm feeling pretty good. I use whichever balance is lower (bank's or mine) and move forward.

She likes, to her credit, it to be perfect. So I rely on that strength of hers and help out where I can.

Blessings

mvg said:



Artor said:



In the past, he 'did it his way' as a rebellious thing. When he'd bounce checks, he'd hide it from me. I started checking the year of his A and would blast him when I'd discover the fees. But I kick myself because when I checked during his A and saw that there were no NSF fees, I didn't look closely at that statement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Had I looked, I would have seen the payments to the flower shops and gift shops (not for me) and other questionable payments. (Like you, mvg, I've begged for these types of romantic favors unsuccessfully, but that's another thread.)

WH had secretly deposited tips from his clients in that account and I was so busy..... working 3 jobs, caring for his ailing mother, taking meals down to his part-time job since he had been fired from his career......that I did not make the effort to check those few statements.

After D-Day #2, I quickly had our DS27 added to our other joint account as a beneficiary, and had his name/usage blocked temporarily. Because I knew he would be shocked and angry, I did not tell him until we had a session with the first (ineffective) MC. WH was seeeeething, but eventually he knew it was for the best.

After D-day #4 (4 months later), when he began to de-fog, WH offered to close the other account, even if it meant he had no access to any money and would be totally dependent on 'getting an allowance from me'. I said 'not yet' but it became a part of his transparancy to prove himself after that.

It actually became a good thing after he got a new job and the salary/commissions were being automatically deposited to that account. He could rebuild his self-worth as a provider after being fired. We now use that account for fun and savings and investments and discuss things like you do, Artor. (Also, I don't want to use ATM's, he does, so we use that account for any debit card expenses if/when needed.)

Yes, he does know how to balance a checkbook (although it bugs me that he does his in pen and the crossouts get confusing), but just the fact that he is starting to balance it weekly is a good thing. His self-respect, cooperative attitude and willingness to change to help me makes this checkbook worthwhile for us at this stage.

Thanks for your time and efforts. Keep us posted mvg on how your discussions/progress goes. Artor's suggestion of "I to We" is what helped us, too.

Ace

just a bump so I don't lose this thread when 'we' finally get to the finances! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey mvg,

We are in a totally different place financially than this time a year ago. Affairs do $uck, but the power of prayer and God's ability to work wondrous miracles has made a major impact on us. I share this to bring glory to HIM, not only to get help with our newe$t dilemma.

Last year we made gifts from the heart because we had no money. I want to do the same this year, but DH does not totally agree. I know, good problem to have. Any ideas?

This may come across as a bit presumptuous but hopefully it will inspire at least one couple who may be in the same situation we were in (6 digit consumer debt and H fired from his job, me working 3 jobs to keep afloat, H choosing in the midst of jobhunting to have an A) to where we are now. GOD IS GOOD and HE will provide. Don't give up even when the A has $ucked in a major way.

Ace

How do you keep Affairs from $ucking too badly during the holidays?????

TREAT CREDIT CARDS AS CASH.....cuz it makes the 'sucking' part present, not future.

Ace

Ace treat them as cash OR don't treat them as cash????
I'm confused, I will only use the CC IF I can pay them off when the bill comes. BTDT with running total...seems you'll never get them paid. I don't want to go there again unless situation is dire.

OOOOps....sorry mvg. I dug for this thread to bump it for Bob P to see that we have the plane/hotel and 'barbie' fee (for the trip to Australia now that BK invited all of us!)

I didn't see your question before.

You're right. Don't use the credit card unless you put aside the same amount of cash for the bill when it comes in. I will continue to put everything on CC to get the air miles....and pay the card off EVERY month.

Ace

I was hoping that is what you meant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's another idea to keep affairs from $ucking too much during the holidays.

Dig out last years Christmas bills (the ones you couldn't pay when they arrived) and try to remember that feeling of regret. (the easy part)

Don't repeat it this year. (the difficult part)

Ace

OK,
Ace,
now that our paths have crossed .....you've got me reading up on some of your many posts.

So lets see:
$$$$ and Affairs.

Alright,
this pisses me off (if I were to dwell on it).

Both my W and the CLB left their positions due to ramifications from their work place Affair.

Problem is the CLB started there about a year before my W did.
As a result when he resigned .....[rather than be terminated] ......he was about 6-7 months past his 5yr anniversary (of employment) and as a result was able to walk away with all his retirement Money (as being past the 5 yr point he was fully vested).

On the other hand my W was 5 months short of 5 yrs when she quit [thereby according to company rules she was Zero invested] .....so she got NOTHING.
Nada, Zippo!
That still rankles me.

Thats of course over and beyond getting new jobs, moving to different state, selling home, paying 2 mortgage/rents, and all the rest.

Plus add to the fact WW wouldn't go for sexual harrassment and be able to retire early ......well that still gets my Goat Every morning when she's complaining about going off to work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

As they said on Kid Nation "Deal with it"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dang you Aceee,
now ya got me thinkin bout this in the down time, while driving around.

OK so how's this one?
CLB is a huge breast man.
Wife begins to really see (dwell on it) it as he's always making "chest" comments about other female coworkers throughout the hospital.
Wife begins to get message of what he likes.
In their banter the idea is implied.
As a result,
CLB is smooth and works on WW for 6-8 months with all his sly subtle suggestions on how Good/hot/sexy she would look with larger headlights.

After letting the comments sink in and rattle around & do their work,
they have further discussions and W decides to get the upgrades.

I'm only told after the decision is already made. [With of course NO Idea about his desire or input or soon to be "hands on" approach to testing them out].

Problem is:
I'm the one that footed the Entire Bill for the surgery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
WTH!!
That stuff ain't cheap.

However,
the CLB got at least half the benefit from them .....and probably more since they were put in mainly at his request and for HIS benefit.
(Keep in mind W was totally AGAINST anything like this, up until they started doing the snake trouser mamba).
Plus,
He sure did more kinky stuff with them then I ever did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So with that
I'm STILL WAITING for him to cough up his Half of the [color:"green"] CA$H [/color] for the surgery.

In fact that was one of the texts that got him to report me to security & then to the police. (My asking for His Half of the boobie money).

Hmmm,
Should I relay my request to his W instead?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Wonder how that would go over. (heee, hee)

***************
And here's a silly but annoying one.
Gum.
Yes, I said gum.

At the time of the A my W was a smoker.
Since the CLB was not she always took to having minty fresh gum around as not to offend him as much.

[censored] me, thought she was using the gum for the benefit of her patients.
Soooo,
I would actually make it a point to go out of my way to make sure she had her gum,
and would actually stop and get her some if I knew she was out or just about to be.
So yes,
in hindsight .......I feel like such a total chump for thinkin I was doing something good/nice for her ......while all the while only HELPING THEM OUT.

So guess that one is less about the money,
and more about making me an unknown/unwilling accomplice to their depravity.

*************

OH yea,
I don't post that much anymore ---
So CLB = creepy little [email]B@st@rd[/email]

YIKES, Top Rope......I aim to impact, but not to the point of obsession. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

(btw, sorry about not replying to your post last night...DH called out that it was time for ********* just as I was looking for this thread).

So what's your story, TR? Sound's like you may have some resentment simmering regarding $tuff you may not have dealt with....yet. You mentioned that you don't post much anymore and, to be honest, your Crybaby thread was the first time I'd heard of you. (Sorry).

Can you post/link your story here or on the Success Story thread? (If you haven't already, you can read my strange story attached to my sigline.)

Glad to get you thinking, TR, but I hope you're able to get some sort of resolution soon. Feel free to vent away as you think of more thing$ that you may have to get out of your $ystem.

Thanks,
Acey

Hey Ace,
please have No distress on my account.

No,
I'm fine ......its just your thread was one of the last ones I read before going out,
so it was fresh in my mind.

No worries,
I'm not obsessing or anything,
No Way .......I got over that a while back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> (thank goodness).

And no,
any small resentment I may still have is not really Simmering or festering.
It is well under control.

With that said,
There will most likely always be at least a little bit of residual left over,
that when dwelt upon will come out.
Honestly,
other then when reading others posters threads on this board, its not something I think on often anymore.
AND believe me, that's a GOOD Thing!

However,
on your thread ......actually I was more Funnin ya then anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I can actually laugh and joke about this stuff now (even at myself) ...cause it No Longer has the same emotional effect on me that this all once did.
{Oh yea, I'm not implying the subject is comical .......just that I can find humor in it now as where once it was ONLY pain/hurt}.

So although it may have come across as major venting (to those in a much earlier place and timeline).....I was really just having a bit of fun poking around at the old carcass.

Unfortunate that in this medium you can't get all the Non verbal clues to what a poster is wanting to convey.
Believe me, I had more of a grin as I was typing then any old frown. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[stunned]
[floored]
{flabbergasted}
You mean you really don't remember me?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[indignant]
After all we've shared! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You mean you don't really read the posts that come on the very threads you start?
Even though well meaning folks put in their time and energy crafting responses in order to help the needy.

So it Ain't So Joe!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Haaa, haaa, ha ......Relax , relax
I'm just kidding with ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
{you shoulda seen the look on your face} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Hey you should Know ya gotta have a little fun with this stuff occasionally ......am I right??

Although
Honestly I have posted to you at least a few times on one of your many threads.
I believe it was one about exposure.

Thinkin back though,
since my position didn't reflect your good buddy (LG's) one.......perhaps you just
disregarded my posts entirely.
OH well, it happens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Guess I need to make my posts more memorable so that they can get the Attention some others seem to garner.
Have a good one.

edited-sp

Hey TR!

Here's where you replied to Acey on her first thread! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Top Rope's Post on Acey's Thread

Semper Fi,

RIF

Sooooo glad you can laugh because I was laughin' out loud, too.....Top Rope, you should join us on the 20-90 Something Recovery Vaction Thread....we're planning that BBQ Big K invited us to in Australia.

Pop on over sometime when ya need a break from all this drama. Did you see where I found the thread where you first posted to me....well it was the first AND LAST post until your Crybaby thread. I had just written a poem about my DH lying a couple weeks ago and BK and RIF were introduced to each other posting to that thread. That's when RIF said he wanted to take Mrs. RIF to Australia. I didn't have time then, but I promised that I had an idea (go to Australia) that I would post on the Vacation thread later.

Then I started reading about the BBQ competition on your thread and when BK challenged all with an OZ BBQ, I had to jump at the segue he gave me. So, because of that thread, we are actually thinking about Spring 2010 at BK's house.....well, as long as he tells Mrs. K in advance....or finds us a park somewhere. Do ya wanna come? (I even invited Justuss!)

Thanks RIF for bumping that thread for Top Rope, but I'm glad it slid off the first page without inciting another exposure debate. YIKES, I didn't even think about that.

Inner Strengh started chatting on that thread, too and it reminded me that she emailed greetings to all, especially Mark. Hope ya got that, Mark.

I've got another tip for keeping the holidays from $ucking too badly, if that's possible, but I'll post it later.

Acey

Have you disappeared, Top Rope? I can mainly post on the weekends so I'm sorry if I've missed you.

Here's another idea to help decrease the affair $ucking affect during the holidays. (Side benefit, it increases intimacy, too!)

Plan in advance to make heart-felt home-made gifts for each other.

Here is the idea I posted on the EN forum about EN gifts for Christmas. (Hope the link works but if not I'll repost it.)

***************************************

Ace_in_bucket Member Reged: Jan 14 2007 Posts: 2938
Re: EN gifts for Christmas?? [Re: star*fish]
#3343846 - Tue Nov 27 2007 06:49 AM



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This Christmas, we're only allowing homemade gifts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Last year, we had no money so DH and I agreed that we would make gifts and limit supplies to $10 each. He wrote me a 3 page heartfelt letter with hopes and dreams and apologies for his A. It was wonderful, so unlike him.

I made him a box, actually 2 concentric boxes I decorated with a poem "The Gift that Fits to the T's" I posted on the creative affection forum.

Inside the first box was the second....with a continuation of the poem pasted around it.

Inside the second box were 20 oragami-folded type pieces of paper with one-word-thoughts or brief promises of our new life together. ("Adventure", "Fishing", "Vacations", "Files from Piles", "Regular Reading Times" etc.)

(Someone mentioned including SF cards, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> but we opened this as a family and he read every one of the items out loud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> SF cards could have been something added for private later!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


*******************************

This year is different and we are having to POJA this concept now that we have funds for gifts. I know, a good problem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Homemade gifts promote intimacy because they require so much thought and personalization. Even if you read this now and feel like it's too late for this Christmas, you can do the same idea for Valentines Day!

Enjoy! (E$pecially when the huge credit card bill does NOT arrive!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ace

One of the best gifts DH and I ever gave was during the second Christmas of our recovery to our daughters. We too didn't have much money (we were still recovering from the devastation that the affairs caused.) Both of our girls had had babies. So, DH and I drew pencil and ink portraits of our grandchildren (we both worked on them), and had them enlarged to 8x10s, matted, and framed. We wrapped them up for Christmas presents.

When my oldest daughter (who is married to an attorney and well off) opened her gift, her mouth dropped open and she burst into tears. She was so overwhelmed by what we had done. Her husband made the comment, "Well there goes that $300 bottle of perfume I got her for Christmas. You guys just blew me out of the water."

My youngest daughter was thrilled too but my oldest daughter's reaction was priceless. This was a great experience for us and moved us further along in our recovery. We worked TOGETHER and the reward was great.

Thank you for your wonderful idea, PM.....gave me boose gumps and nearly made me cry. Artwork is special and I'm glad your DD and her DH were touched by your thoughtfulness.

Again, thanks.....anyone else have any ideas in addtion to PM's? (btw, funny elf dance ya did!)

Ace

P.S. I have an update on how we POJA'd our difference of preferences mentioned earlier. Last year we had no money for gifts, but thanks to our $pecial recent miracle, we do this year.....bit I still wanted to make heart-felt gifts again (and DH wanted to buy)! I'll share what we did yesterday later. !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> God is good... and POJA rocks!

First,
thanks RIF for the assist there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So very kind of ya ......you [color:"red"]Devil Dog [/color] You.
Semper Fi indeed.
{Haven't seen any of my old buddies in close to 20 yrs .....miss em sometimes)

Next

Well, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Actually, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Uhhmm, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Errrrr, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I must confess that there WAS more than a Single post on your thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

If you go back & read there is one on pg 2
AND
then yet another on Pg 3.

So in effect that would Actually DOUBLE my previous post count on one of your threads. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hey,
just tryin ta help keep things Accurate is all ........
{OH man don't ya just hate a wize Azzz??} <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
hee, hee, he

Lastly to you Princess M,
that was one cool idea and project.
Sadly,
I doubt my skills would lend to that particular present ......but I'm sure it was a Huge Hit.
What a heart felt and PERSONAL gift. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Small Problem is,
how do you continue to top THAT year after year?
Yikes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

LOL. You don't, but it makes for a heck of a memory. Unfortunately, we're back to giving the traditional commercial gifts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I stand corrected, Top Rope....it was the first and last thread (not post) until your crybaby thread.

My bad.....oh well...it gives you something to talk about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

**************************

As promised, here's what DH and I decided to get each other for Christmas.

As stated, we did not have much money last year (or for the past several years) so we agreed to exchange handmade gifts from the heart with each other ($10 limit for supplies).

We have funds this year, but I still want to make gifts but DH wants to buy something nice for me (and I don't want him spending as much money as he wants to).

My main objective was to share from the heart again and not spend any 'major purchase' money. He wants to do the heart gifts, too, but he also wants to get me/us something big.....a flat screen TV cuz our 20 year old one is fuzzing out. (I don't watch that often alone, but we like to cuddle in the evenings before the fire ~~~and he needs to watch sports for his career....which I enjoy, too.)

I don't mind getting the TV but I don't want to spend 'new TV' amounts of money, even though we have it now.

DH suddenly remembered that he got a bonus credit card from his new job that he will lose if he doesn't use it before the end of the year. So yesterday, we purchased a flat screen TV, (paying only the taxes) and DH and I will also exchange 'gifts from the heart' on Christmas Day with the family.....and we are both enthusiastically in agreement to both scenarios.

What forgotten accounts might you possibly find to offset cash purchases at Christmas this year? That will help keep thing$ from sucking as badly during the holidays.

Thanks for reading.....Any other ideas?

Ace

PM, even if you gone back to commercially purchased gifts~~~(which may eventually go away), no one can ever take away the memories of your personal gifts that year.

Ace

PM that is a GREAT gift. I wish we were as talented.

mvg....you ARE talented at things you're probably not aware of. Just think of what you're interested in and I'll bet you can find a way to create thoughtful heartfelt gifts using those skills and abilities.

This guy gave DH and me a huge glass bottle terrerrium (sp?)one year. It was cool, but even more special to discover that he had planted it himself! (I guess they have really long skinny tongs he must have used as this bottle only had a 3 inch opening and it was about 26 inches in diameter around the bottom and about 30 inches high.)

How 'bout wood framed photos taken in unusual poses? Or a fabric covered scrap book or photo album? Or a certificate for a special time (dinner/game night/movie/dvd/shopping) appointment or time block?

Don't limit yourself. You either, Top Rope....somehow I don't think I need to say that to you.

What IS your story, Top Rope? It's not attached to your sig line and I don't have the know how to dig through the archives looking for it.

Thanks,
Ace

MrStrype,

You were looking for ideas for hand made personalized gifts. Check out post #3358358 on the previous page and the attached link for what we did last year when we had no money.

Best wishes to you.

Ace

Thank you, Ace...I will look at it.
All my best,
~MrStrype

hummmm Acey you just might have made me open my eyes! I've got an idea now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OK mvg......I see where you've been thinking (and the accompanying warnings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) on some of your recent posts, so now I'm curious.

What's your idea? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Can you at last share PART of it on a world-wild forum ~~~> (Oooops, a typo I think I'll leave intact)!!!

Does it lessen the $ucking effect of affairs? Is it related to the holiday$?

Ace

It doesn't lessen the $ucking effect but is holiday related...H loves hunting. I was thinking of making a collage of his hunting & fishing pics over the years. I might not have enough time for xmas now, BUT his birthday is coming up.

NOT an out of the world present but he might like it.

I like your idea, mvg. I think I'll create a movie/maker compilation of DH's sports events/pictures/awards. He just got a champion's ring from our last world series. Those things never seemed to mean much to him, but NOW they do.

You're right, it will take time, but should not be that $ucky on the bank account.

Any other idea$? I have one more but I'll post it later.

Ace

My last idea (for the day at least):

To keep the Affair from $ucking too much during the holidays, make an effort to give the gift of the T's (as mentioned in my box/poem idea).

Time and Thoughts are the gifts of the T's.

All it cost are moments and efforts.

It will mean something now (and later via memories) to the recipient and will be an example for your children of what is really valuable.

********

Merry Chri$tmas and may your holidays not suck the joy out of the season if you remember the real reason for those 'holy-days'.....every day of the new year.

Ace