Post deleted by rltraveled

Good to see you around.

Sorry...don't have much else to say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Mr. Wondering

RLT,

Regarding the viagra ads, I wouldn't worry about them too much. I'm a lady and I use my PC for work only and a little of MB--and I probably get 30 viagra ads to my Outlook everyday. Frankly some of them are DISGUSTING. So I wouldn't worry about them so much.

OW's name and email showing up as a contact again? THAT I would worry about!!!!!I know it's going to be impossible because you feel like you're bursting at the seams, but if it were me, I would try to dig around for a few days and just investigate! Try an invisible keylogger if you can...or a GPS...or have a good friend follow him... Just reserve judgment until you have gathered some information. However, I will say this: having OW as a contact does not look good, because contacts do not just "show up" if you open an email from someone. A contact has to be created, and that would mean he purposely MADE her email a contact. Make sense?

So yeah--go into detective mode and be as cool as you can so you don't tip your hand. It never hurts to look a little! Furthermore, give him the opportunity to prove maybe he is being faithful! It may not look real kosher at this moment, but especially if OW was devious, it could be that he was just a dunder head and not unfaithful--know what I mean?? So remain calm and INVESTIGATE.

Your true friend,



CJ

Post deleted by rltraveled

Harumph <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, as the owner of a very small ISP (by national standards) let me weigh in on SPAM and Viagra ads. They are easy to get rid of if the ISP is willing to spend literally pennies on the job. We have been filtering for our customers for years and, for example, I have six email addresses on my home computer and I average less than one per address per day. Can't get rid of them all for technical reasons.

Next: yes, a contact can show up out of the blue on Outlook, which is the world's worst email program. It can also happen on Outlook Express, the default email program for most everyone and it is only slightly better than Outlook. Exactly how it happens is a mystery buried in the bowels of Microsoft. Contacts can also disappear for no apparent reason. One real reason is that an email shows up and gets deleted but the from address is stored as a contact. There are other, less apparent reasons.

If you have any doubts, get a keylogger. I did and it saved me a bunch of grief. Oh, and yes, a contact can also mean, uh, contact! That one is about 80% likely.

Larry

Huh????

I've been using Outlook for years and never seen this behaviour. Ever. Never had an address spontaneously appear in my contacts.

80%??? more like 99%.

There are certain email programs, where being added by the other party, can cause this to happen.
In other words, OW could have added your hubby's addy, and that conceivably could have made this happen.
My email has 2 lists of contacts, one list of contacts that I added, and then one list of people who have added me. Depending on the program though, he very well may have had to "allow her add".

For sure, I would snoop further, without a doubt!

sh&t guys. that's all I can say.

Why wouldn't I see emails back and forth between them. I DIDN'T SEE ANY!!!

If he were trying to hide something, why would he erase the emails, but have her as a contact?

I'm clearly NOT thinking straight.

RLT - Hello my friend! Saw you over here and thought I would see what was up. I also have microsoft email and I have never had a contact just appear. I am confused on one thing. If he uses the computer at work, you still have access thru your computer if you have his passwords. Do they use a different system? I would be very concerned about this. Last week I found a womans name on my H's contact list. If you want the whole story dig it up under frustrated on this forum. It's under my old name lostanduncertain. He swears he doesn't know who it is or how the contact got there, but I am still suspicious. Like your H, mine has been wonderful which adds to my confusion. I sent this woman a email under my H's account and check his mail regularly. I have recieved no reply. The crazy thing is that it says the contact was added on 8/14 and I check his contacts regularly and it wasn't there except for last week. I am equally confused.

I am still thinking you are my long lost twin. Scary how our lives seem to coinside (sp?) If someone figures it out for you, maybe it will explain it for me.

Hugs to you.

99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%

neak, it's an msn account. I'm trying to get in it now ...

Outlook Express can be configured to automatically add someone as a contact if you reply to a message that they sent you. Check Under the Send options for the "automatically put people I reply to in my Address book" option.

If it IS Outlook Express that you're talking about here, it's quite possible that OW sent him a message, he replied, and then deleted the message and the reply. That would explain the appearance of the contact.

okay i'm confused. Is Outlook Express the same as an MSN account?

Does your H's e-mail address end in hotmail.com? Outlook Express is an e-mail client that's included with Internet Explorer. It's found on almost every Windows PC. It can be configured to retrieve e-mail from a Hotmail account (if the account in question is upgraded to Hotmail plus) and download it to your PC.

Does he access MSN via a Web Page or does he run Outlook OR Outlook Express? What were you running when you saw the contact in his address book?

MIM is right. I think Outlook does that too.

Where there is smoke there is usually fire. 99.9% of the time. This is how my sister found out that her H was cheating again. She had a hunch that something was just not right, even though her WH was on his very best behavior (an obvious ploy on his part to throw her off so that she would not suspect something was going on)...She checked his email and found OW in his contact list. My sis sent an email to the OW and the OW responded, thinking she was responding to my sister's WH. She talked about being so happy that they were in communication again and could not wait to their next date! That is how my sis uncovered the fact that they had been in constant contact again.

Keep an eye on the situation and if your instincts are telling you something is off about OW being in his contact list, don't ignore it.

Hi guys, his email ends in msn.com. I always thought msn and hotmail were the same, but I am a total dumb head when it comes to this stuff.
BigK--I guess it is accessed on a web page. Let's see, I go the the website called hotmail.com. I put in his name, Mr.Rlt@msn.com, then I type in his password. His account comes up. But I notice that his is in some new format, Windows Live or something.

When I check my email, I do the same thing, go to hotmail.com, type in RLT@hotmail.com (mine is hotmail, not MSN), then my password. Mine is still the older format.

I think MiM may have it--that he got some mail, responded, and it went on to his contact list. I think. I don't know.

Oh, you said Yahoo addys, so I see how I got confused. (This can happen easily. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Still, these things do not just happen. That computer did not just randomly pick that addy, randomly put it in, and it just happened to be her. Something had to happen to get it there. MIM's and Big K's guesses look pretty edumicated to me.

Don't do anything yet, just keep an eye on things. Be sweet as pie, and go through every aspect of life with a fine-tooth comb. Chances are good you'll find more if there's more to find.

hi, neak,

the addys that they USED to use were Yahoos. He's had the msn address since 02. He said that they never used that one, but I do believe that's a lie because her name is on the contact list.

I keep thinking back. I don't look at the contact list often, just the mail. But I HAVE looked at it before, and, as a blood hound will do, I scoured the thing. I even remember once doing it with him standing over me so he could tell me who everyone was. She wasn't there.

Now she is.

AHA! OK, clear as mud now. With Windows Live, if he uses MSN Messenger, and adds a contact, that contact will also automagically be created under his e-mail contacts at the hotmail.com site. Also, if he doesn't delete it properly from MSN Messenger, it will NOT delete the corresponding contact created under his e-mail account.

So, does he use MSN Messenger? It's possible that he added her as an MSN Messenger contact. It's also possible that he deleted her contact from MSN Messenger after talking with her without selecting the delete from e-mail option. Do you have the history option turned on in MSN Messenger? If so, you could check the location of the history files to see if he actually contacted her via MSN Messenger. And if it isn't turned on, I suggest you turn it on.

MiM, my heart is racing now.

When I look at the contact edit, she shows as an IM contact. I had to install the MSN messenger on this computer last night as I never use it.

How do I check the history? I do have it turned on now.

You'll need to turn it on when he's logged on to MSN Messenger. It saves individual settings for each user.

Assuming the default location was not changed, the history files will be located in his "My Documents\My Received Files" folder. There will be a folder in there starting with the first part of his e-mail address and a string of numbers. Inside that folder you'll set "History", and in that you'll see a bunch of XML files for each person he's spoken to via IM. Double-clicking on any of them will open them up in Internet Explorer for viewing.

Sorry you're going through this now. I know exactly the feeling you're referring to.

the folder is empty.

does it matter that the computer he would be using is at work, and not this one?

This may not help, since it's not msn ... but I use AOL and it adds addresses to my contact list of anyone who even also recieves an e-mail that I got.

So my SIL sends jokes out to lists of people, and all of the people she sends it to end up on my contacts list. All of those names will try to come up as options in an auto-fill when I start typing an address in an e-mail.

Don't know if that happens in msn, though.

Yes, it has to be turned on on the computer that he uses to do IM. I know the latest version of MSN Messenger will keep some of a user's settings if they log on to a different PC, but I don't think the "history" setting is one of them.

Have you told him about your discovery yet?

okay, so my computer would not show his correspondence.

Got it.

No, MiM. I haven't told him. He does lurk on MB sometimes, so he may know. But he's been pretty busy.

Do you think there is any other explanation?

I keep going back in my head. I KNOW she wasn't there before. She shows as an IM contact.

I know. I'm repeating myself.

I don't know what to do.

Do you have any friends who are real tech gurus? Maybe sit down with one of them and show them exactly what you've found, and explain the situation clearly. It is possible you are being cheated on again, and it is also possible that this could be happening from when he used msn messenger "way back when". Please find out ASAP before you make yourself sick!

I'm trying to rationalize here, that it was from "way back when," but the name wasn't there before. I know. I've been on it 100 times. Believe me, I've scoured for her name everywhere on his $hit. He was very good. He deleted EVERYTHING. If it wasn't for her dumba$$, they never would have been caught as she had archived files on her email that her husband found.

I don't know anyone that is a tech guru. Well, my brother, but Oh God, I don't want to tell him about this. He'll blow a gasket.

Your brother sounds like a great idea to me!

but if this turns out to be nothing, I'll look like an idiot.

Don't doubt yourself, whatever else you may do. You know you checked, and you know it wasn't there. Now it is. You are not losing it, you did not overlook it. You are not insane, and you didn't just forget.

No, really, I think a beloved family member is your best bet. He will understand your fear, and if turns out to be unfounded, he will cheer along with you. If your worst fears are realized, he can hold you while you cry. Don't you think?? Naturally this only applies if you have a close relationship with your brother. I just hate to see you suffer a needless length of time, while you are in limbo trying to figure this out.

thank you, neak. I do need to be reminded of that.

Setfree, my brother and I are close enough, I suppose. But he can be extremely cold, sometimes. In the months following DDay, he called me very little. He just didn't want to hear it. (And no, he would never hold me while I cry, nope.)

Now ... deep breath. It's all I can do not to call him up and ask him about this NOW. But I'm waiting till tonight.

Really, this is insane. He has been really wonderful, attentive, like a husband I never knew before. We renewed our vows, for criminy's sake. He goes to church now. We go together.

Maybe (thinking out loud) they had some short conversation (IM) or something? But the thing is he didn't tell me. That's lying by omission, right? And about something crucial.

I have always had blurry boundaries. I have always accepted too much to be "okay" when it was really dead wrong. I don't want to do that again.

I agree, you should ask him right away.
I believe he would want to put your worried mind at ease.
I'm sure he would tell you how much he loves and appreciates you. Further more, I think he would appreciate you checking on him and keeping that little voice that talks to you properly informed.
As you stated, he is a new person in his, yours, and God's heart.
I'm sure you will be relieved to know that he has honored the No contact agreement, and is proud to stand before you as an upright man with nothing to hide.
I believe that he is as surprised as you are to find something that neither of you can explain and he will try his best to convince you of that.
He treasures you and his second chance...
(((((((((((((My Darling RLT))))))))))))))))

WOW! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FWHofRLT is obviously Mr. RLT---

Alrighty then ...

I told you he might be lurking on here.

What do I am of this?

I talked to him on the phone.

He says he is as surprised as I am.

He doesn't know how it got there.

What am I to believe?

I would ask that he take a polygraph RLT...

Mrs. W

I actually thought of that, Mrs. W.

And I, like you, very much want to believe him...But I think that for your peace of mind that he should be volunteering to take one...If his post was sincere, I believe he will very much want to prove his innocence to you...As a FWW with nothing to hide, I know that I sure would...

Mrs. W

Well you can bet he's reading this, Mrs. W. We'll see if he makes the offer.

I think it is sad when the integrity of the words of your best friend and partner for life have be to put to a polygraph.

RLT,

Just a thought here...

The old things have passed away and all things are made new.

Before meeting the Savior, we tend to think of "sin" as line to be crossed. In reality we find that it is a direction (or a mind-set.) The word "repent" actually means "to think again" or change our mind. The problem is that some of our old habits stick around for a while (IE: withholding information that may be relevant)


Sometimes, artifacts of an affair can surface for a long time after the fact. Within the last few months I have "discovered" things that I wish had all been destroyed. In one case it ate at me for a week before I brought it up. My wife claimed she had forgotten of its existence and destroyed it at once. The content still bothered me, and in fact still does to some extent, but the immediate action meant a lot.

But if I had not mentioned it to her, it would still be floating around in the bottom of her briefcase where she might have found it on a day that was less than perfect and checking it out begun to think about OM and about things of old. Not what I had in mind in the way of recovery.

Mr RLT,

FWIW, the secret to avoiding all of this is PORH.

Just share everything with RLT and when it is TMI let her tell you to stop. Hide NOTHING and don't get defensive when she inquires about anything.

If you can swing it somehow, take the polygraph, just to ease her mind. Show her that you can be trusted in every aspect of your life and eventually she should begin to trust you.

As a guess, part of the problem may be related to the fact that you probably tend to not share as much of yourself with her as a general rule as she would like. Hence, when she finds something...ANYTHING that she did not know about, she is sent into a tizzy wondering if you are hiding something on purpose or just being dumb. At least for now, nothing should be too trivial to share. As she gets accustomed to your honesty, she will begin to expect less detail about mundane things.

If she is like my wife, just the sharing of every day things is what she craves. Opening yourself up to her, about work, your thoughts, your dreams, your normal routine, will give her a deeper appreciation of you and your point of view.

If you haven't already done so, read this article by Dr Harley>>> Why Women Leave Men

If you wish to discuss anything, feel free to email me, but unless there is some compelling reason to do otherwise, any replies to either of you will be cc to the other.

Mark

QUICK NOTE TO SELF, RLT: If you were a party who was in fact innocent and yet wrongly accused of something that was difficult to prove, how would YOU prove your innocence?

The reason I ask is that while your hubby deserves some scrutiny due to the fact that he's a FORMER wayward--what if he were innocent? How could he possibly "prove" that? On one hand I think it's reasonable for you to snoop and for him to say to himself, "I sort of deserve some of this mistrust due to my past choices"--but OTOH there are some accusations that are just IMPOSSIBLE to prove innocence (like emotional abuse).

Soooooo...it's reasonable to be cautious and wary--but also try to stay open to the possibility that maybe there is not guilt. How would you prove yourself innocent??

Mr. RLT--IF BY CHANCE you are innocent and you are reading this, here is my advice to you. After work, take RLT to your office, show her your computer, let her snoop around and show her that you have been saving your IMs and not deleting stuff all over. If you have nothing to hide (and that's a big IF) then let her see. I save my IMs so that my hubby can ALWAYS see any communication I have with anyone. Let her look. If she asks for something and it feels a little snoopy, let her have free access because you two are a partnership and a team now--anything that happens to you, she has the right to know.

AND...if OW contacted you via IM or email and you just deleted it and didn't think of it again, do not hide it from RLT. The thing that hurts a BS is DISCOVERING stuff, not honesty. Honesty can indeed hurt sometimes, but there's that consolation that "at least he was honest"...but if she DISCOVERS something and then you say, "Well I didn't want ot upset you" then everything flies out the window and everything you have said and done up to this point is not trusted.

I'll be praying for ya both!!

Your faithful friend,



CJ

From Why Women Leave Men

"But the mental cruelty they describe is rarely the result of their husband's efforts to drive them crazy. It is usually husbands being indifferent, failing to communicate and demonstrating other forms of neglect."

"Some of the common complaints I hear from women is, "He ignores me except when he wants sex, he sits and watches television when he could be talking to me, he rarely calls me to see how I'm doing, he hurts my feelings and then never apologizes."

Yep on both quotes. I constantly complained about his Indifference. And the second quote, well I've said that one a hundred times a least over the years.

I like the article because I have always been relegated to only one room, wasn't allowed in any of the others.

Faithful, I thought of going to his office myself, but if there was anything to hide, it's probably gone by now.

I really do want to trust and believe in him. I really do. It's just so dang difficult. I believe he wants to change, but that he stil does struggle with "sticking points." His habits have been so part of his life that I sometimes think he doesn't even know when he is doing something he shouldn't. (blame shifting, entitlement) He still hangs on to these things from time to time.

Lying, though, is something quite different. He HAS to know when he is lying. And I simply can't go there with him anymore.

He can't prove his innocence on this. So that leaves me with the old "leap of faith" option again.

I just really want to know how the address got there. But he says he is clueless.

Mr. RLT, if you truly had nothing to do with how that addy got into your contacts, it is imperative to figure out how it did so you can block it from happening again. And if you did have something to do with how it got there, it is imperative that you share that with RLT, also.

On more than one occasion, our OW got into my H's email, but it was remotely accessed (Yahoo). I know almost nothing about the type you have. But no matter how far you have to go, or how much you have to do, it is your job to protect your Mrs. from further harm. I want to really encourage you to do/keep doing that, because the dividends will be fantastic.

RLT, I can't tell you if you can believe your H or not. But as one who has been through both kinds of recoveries - true and false - you can develop a confidence in your own internal affairometer. This is not dependent on any one thing he says or does, but takes into account the whole picture, and whether the things you are able to verify do, in fact, check out ok.

Your first urges may be a quick rush to judgment, which is normal after what you've been through, but just remember there is no hurry to do anything. If your H follows through with being open and not defensive about being accountable to you, that should go a long way toward helping you to feel more comfortable. You will be able to find a balance between being blind or too hasty, where your eyes are wide open, and you are open to whatever answer you get.

At least this answers your question of if he is browsing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It didn't just get in your contacts by Osmosis. He's either recieved an email from her or he's sent her one. Simple as that.

Okay, this is what is going on.

We had a great Fri and Sat.--but, he said nothing about the email issue. Sunday, I (as in, ME!) had to bring it up.
He continued, and continues to know nothing about it. So, I said, did you read on MB about suggesting to take a polygraph?

He answered no.

Then I re-asked the question.

Then he said -- Yes.

Okay, so you're lying about not seeing a post on a polygraph. How F--ING Ironic is that.

Then, he gets hugely defensive about the whole polygraph idea. He said he will NOT take a polygraph. He said I am using that as a tool.

Then he went into, "Why did you bring us here when things were so gret?" Why do you do this. Will this ever end? I'm tired of answering affair questions. I don't ever want to do it again. This is the last time we are having an affair talk.

O-M-G--he went on and on. He went into denial, defensive, entitlement behavior.

He said that he WOULD answer questions on a polygraph concerning contact, that there IS NO CONTACT.

However, he will NOT answer questions about the affair, itself. Why? Because, he says, it is OVER, and he will not answer any more questions about it.

That's his story, and he's sticking to it.

Oh RLT, I know what you're going through. I am so sorry.

Just to let you know, my H reacted and said pretty much the same things your H did regarding taking a poly. I know I am repeating myself from other posts, but your H may not have read it.

The only difference was when my H had his reaction, he was also reacting to the fact that it was a necessity for me to stay in the marriage. I caught my H in lies and I couldn't continue with a liar. I wanted happiness and I wasn't going to get it with a liar. It was a poly or divorce.

For the first few days, he decided on divorce. A few days later, he decided he wanted to keep the marriage and that's when he started purging the lies he had been telling me to my face, throughout our recovery up to that point.

My H's decision to take the poly, and the lies that were purged, were necessary to begin a TRUE recovery. Even though my H is sorry he has hurt me, he is also relieved at the same time that he was able to get it out and not have to hide it all anymore.

Your H MAY not be keeping quite as much from you as mine did, but it's my gut feeling that he is keeping some things from you I'm sorry to say. I hope I'm wrong. As long as there are secrets and lies, you will NOT recover wholly, healthy, and happily.

The disclosures have been hard, but the uneasiness I felt when I thought he was lying to me, has lessened in a different way. I still have a very difficult time believing him now though, which is a result of all the lying, so I just watch his actions.

Mr. RLT, in my opinion, should be doing this for you if he you values you and your sanity. If he's innocent, he'll have given you a great gift. It is worth the expense.

He's a liar RLT. Pure and simple.

If your H is refusing to take the test... I would NEVER trust one single word that comes out of his mouth. He is a liar and should be handled as such.
His reasons for the email stuff and most likely everything are chock full of lies. Liars lie RLT.

Mr. RLT.... be a man instead of the weak coward that you are showing yourself to be right now. Take the test and out your the mind of the woman you betrayed at ease. YOU did this...now you fix it.

I read her post to say that hubby DOES agree to answer questions on a poly about contact. I think that's a good sign.

This week, I had the unpleasant shock of seeing the name of my deceased best friend appear on my contact list, after I deleted the name after the funeral, years ago.It was not there last week. The new Windows Live thing added back a lot of names, some who I have never even sent an email to.

Sometimes things are not as simple as they seem. Hubby says he will answer the "No Contact" questions..so go for it! It is possible he is lying, but it is also possible he is not. It would be a shame to throw away your marriage over a ghost from the past, if he is truly in NO CONTACT now.

What does your gut tell you, RLT?

Thank you for helping RLT to see through me.
I am a LIAR.
This recent episode, brought out a huge lie that I have been keeping from her.
It caused me to admit that there was conact during a period of time that I had been denying.
Although there has been no contact since I returned home last November, there was contact up until the time I did returned home after those 3 days...
I finally ended it for good with OW at that time.

RLT allowed me to come home again, and I committed myself to saving the marriage that I was destroying. I wrote the no contact aggreement, and have honored it, but I kept this lie of prior contact from RLT.
We have been to MC, and we have renewed our vows, but I continued to keep this lie from her and everyone.
I have dis-honored my wife.
I made her believe that it was her fault that we were not moving forward, when infact it was My lie that was holding us back.
Even my last post on MB was a lie, stating that I had nothing to hide. How sick was that?
I am writing this to appologize to all of you, and especially to my wife.
Many of you know her and our situation, and what I have put her through...
Please help her again, for I have destroyed the last bit of hope that she had.
Thank you for all of the help and guidance you have given her, and tried to give me.
I have alot of praying to do.
Sincerely,
FWHofRLT

FWHofRLT...

Does this mean that you are willing to take the polygraph? See, I think that you should, and I'll tell you why...1. It is the LEAST you could do at this point for RLT and 2. If you are telling the WHOLE truth now, then I'd think that you would be DYING to prove that, because I guarantee you that she will have doubts, I know that I would, wouldn't you? Right now, you should be totally humble, completely at her mercy and praying that she will want to stay with you...You have NO RIGHT to deny her anything that she needs right now and I sure hope that you agree...If not, then I gotta tell ya that I don't think she should stay with you...

Anyway, that is my take FWIW...

Mrs. W

I think it is great that you have come clean with this bit of honesty. My experience with people confronted with the polygraph is that they will come through with at least a partial truth to Appear as though the threat of the exam has forced them to come clean. Mr. RLT I do not know you...but I know human nature and it is my belief that when there is one lie told...others...usually bigger are lurking just below the surface.
Try and recognize the blow to your long term credibility by being able to lie so convincingly. If I read the signature line correctly...you were even lying the day you renewed your wedding vows. Imagine the shadow that casts on your words.
Is it embarrassing to have to take a polygraph...yes...but you need to get over it. Embarrassment does not begin to compare to the daily hurt that lies and doubt cause a BS. So, suck it up...agree to take the test and then TAKE IT.
Mrs. RLT...help save your H from himself....do not back down on his taking this test. It will be the best thing that you two have ever done for one another.

Yes, MEDC, you're reading the sig. line correctly.

Before God and everyone ...

I am sick beyond what I can say here.

Yesterday was one of the worst days of my life.

Amazing what the mere mention of a polygraph will bring out.

Early this morning I not only learned about the extended contact, I also learned that he is not a one time cheater, but a serial cheater.

My brain can't hold it all in right now.
I want to throw up.

Sorry to hear that - it must be particularly devastating to not only have the final(?) truth now, but to know that lies continued on even during supposed recovery.

OTOH, there's now a possibility for a deep emotional intimacy to develop between the two of you, one that apparently was prevented from forming because of his continued lying.

{{{RLTRAVELED}}}

MIM...he hasn't told everything yet...so there really is no chance at recovery yet.

RLTWH...how does all this make you feel??? Are you sufficiently ashamed of your actions that you are now willing to make everything right...starting with a polygraph. Obviously you must see that your words at this point mean nothing. If you can't immediately submit to a test then you obviously care little about your wife's feelings.

RLT...I would say that either he gets this polygraph done by weeks end or you file for divorce. This has gone on long enough and YOU need to put a stop to it. The fact that he was willing to tarnish your vow renewal in the way that he did clearly shows that he still maintains the WS moniker. I am sorry for the pain that you are dealing with right now...but the biggest mistake you could make here is giving him even one inch of credit...he has to earn everything from this point forward.

I make it a personal habit to never agree with MEDC...

But he's right. There is NO reason to trust that RLTWH has completely told the truth. There's been such a history of deceit that the entire foundation for trust has been eroded away by the series of lies.

Getting a polygraph would give RLT a foundation to start with.

I too would bet quite a bit that there's still more major lies that he's not admitted to yet.

I am so sorry to hear this latest development, RLT. That is sickening! Were his other affair(s) before this one, or since then? It's so sad that he was willing to go through the motions of "coming clean" with you, yet hold back. Did he tell you why in the world he handled it that way?

Please get some counseling from the Harleys. While the polygraph will show the truth, in the long run, your hubby needs to be the one telling the truth.

This has been going on so long that I really think you need to scrape up the $180. for some expert help.

I agree with Believer about counseling...BUT IMO, that needs to be put off until he takes and passes the test. If he doesn't...again IMO...he isn't worth going through any more of this crapp over.

The truth needs to be the foundation that you can build upon. Without that...there is no need for counseling.

MEDC, you called this one from the start and I agree with your opinion above.

RLT, I am so sorry you are going through this, again. I completely understand where you are right now. I understand the devastation that will continue to unravel for the days and weeks to come.

I agree with Medc, Owl, MiM and Mrs. W. A polygraph does need to happen. It took my H 3 wks, before the test, to come clean about everything. NOW, I know what my real reality is so I can make decisions for myself. Things are really going to start to fall into place now. I'm still getting new revelations every day. Things make sense now.

However, I would allow yourself some time before you make any rash decisions. Don't feel like you have to make any decisions right now. You don't need the extra pressure. Just take all the time you need to let this sink in. You have plenty of time to decide if it's worth it to you to continue.

I just made a new e-mail acct for you if you'd like to talk. It's [email]mopey100@gmail.com.[/email] Don't feel bad if you don't want to talk. I'll understand. A wonderful poster here did that for me and I was happy to have it. She's awesome.

You need IC desperately, but in the meantime, I can recommend some help for you if you want it.

It's a horrible place to be, I know. But now is where you'll begin your path to true healing, with or without Mr. RLT.

[[[[[RLT]]]]]]]

HAP...it really wasn't a tough one for me to see...IMO, liars lie. WS are by their very nature liars...so, simple enough.
There are a few other people here that could benefit from these as well....but bottom line is there are too many BS that are afraid of the WS or FWS to request such a test. IMO, it is the least that a wayward can do to help repair some of the damage they have done. Four hours out of their lives to make a HUGE difference for their loved one....sorry, but I just don't see it as being a problem unless they are lying.
I would venture guess that quite a few people here that are in "recovered" marriages would be surprised to see that there FWS are indeed still hiding very important details. Unless there is a clean sweep of details ...rather than a BS needing to find things out by dribs and drabs..I say hook up the machine. At the very least it can stop the questioning regarding the facts of the affair...and the BS will know the truth and decide to move forward on not based on that. How many recoveries on this board have been stalled because the FWS...who really hasn't earned the moniker "former" until 100% honesty has been given....I have seen a lot. Looking back... a polygraph before vow renewal could have saved a lot of trouble for RLT...now, sadly, she has even more things to recover from.

RLT,

I am really sorry for what you are going through.

he agreed to the polygraph.

can anyone direct me where to go to have this done?

That wouldn't surprise me at all. As a BS, I think we all at one point or another suspect that there's "more to the story", stuff so bad that the FWS can't say it to anyone.

BTW - I asked my FWW about an hour ago if she would submit to a polygraph test if I asked for one. She replied she was "not sure", and when I asked her why, she said that she might agree to it, but she's not sure how useful it would be, because apparently they aren't reliable enough.

polygraph tests are over 98% accurate...I think that is reliable enough.

Medc....



This is so true. The BSs ARE afraid to even ask. And, they could save themsevles TONS of grief if they do a poly in the beginning to get it all out in the open.

Anyone who refuses a test has something to hide. Period.

what state do you live in?

medc,

I live in Colorado, near Denver.

I got my polygrapher from the yellow pages. She had been in law enforcement for over 20 yrs and use to work with sexual offenders. She knew her stuff.

I also called and spoke with the poly examiners at our local sheriff's offices. They made me feel better about the accuracy of the tests. I also did a lot of research on them too so I would know what the "results" meant and how they come to their conclusions. I also did that research before I picked my examiner so I could determine if they were legit. That was very helpful.

Basically, the whole thing sucked but was very necessary.

I can't say I know of anyone out there...although I believe Michael Martin...who is pretty well known and respected...should cover that area.
Really, just check your local yellow pages and see if the places have websites...you are looking for experience here...ask for a CV.

I checked Martin does handle your area but charges a premium price because he needs to fly there. Find a local expert.

Agree with this 100%...Personally, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to take a polygraph test to demonstrate to Mr. W just how honest I've been...Mr. W isn't interested-doesn't want to spend the money-lol-I guess a big part of him not wanting to is the fact that I go out of my way to show him how trustworthy that I am now...I'd do anything to show him how committed to our marriage that I am...My gosh, I'd go to the ends of the earth just to thank him for taking me back...

RLT, I'm happy to hear that your husband has agreed to take the polygraph...Please follow through with it...((((RLT))))

Mrs. W

you are a good woman Mrs W. we spar on occasion...but you are a very good woman.

Thank you MEDC...I think of you as a good man too...If I didn't like ya, I wouldn't bother to spar with ya, I'd just ignore ya-besides it keeps things interesting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Mrs. W.,



I would like to share my life with a male version of you in a husband.

I pray that he gets there mopey...Does he read here? All the heartbreak and devastation? When you do that, AND have a spouse willing to forgive, well, it's hard not to have a big change of attitude...I read somewhere the other day that the word "repent" actually means "to change your mind"...This place helps with that...so does reading what the Bible has to say about adultery...I also had the opportunity to read Mr. W's journal from that time-what I put him through was brutal-I would have to be inhuman not to have deep empathy and genuine remorse after that...

Mrs. W

I will pursue the polygraph but at this point I don't really know what difference it will make. I have already been given yet another load of very devestating revelations, putting me on the brink of collapse here.

What makes people think they can do this?

OW was fed a horrible lie! Mr. RLT wanted to end A, so he told her that my daughter and I went to his hotel room and begged him to come back home, and that's what he decided to do.

LIE LIE LIE--he made me sound like some week, bumbling fool, using my daughter as a prop to get him to come home. In FACT, I called my lawyer that weekend to file for divorce. I was DONE WITH HIM!!

Why didn't he just leave me alone and let me do it.

It would be behind me now.

He'd have his fat a$$ girlfriend.

I would at least be able to breathe right now.

I want to call her right now and let her know the truth.

Get some Harley counseling. This is a disaster.

How was he as a husband BEFORE the affair? I guess that would be pertinent to making a decision.

And don't call FATASS.

Well that's what affair partners do RT, lie to each other. He had to save face with her.

What did the NC letter say? Didn't it set her straight on what a mistake he made and how he desparately wanted his wife back?

Time for a NC letter that you approve of and mail.

RLT,

I am soooo sorry that this is happening. It is a setback of horrific proportions. I know how devastating it is to forgive and start to rebuild and trust just a bit only to be teleported back to d-day all over again.

I have but a few suggestions for you at this point. First, since Mr. RLT has agreed to take the test, think very carefully what questions you want the answers to and mentally prepare yourself for the answers.

Mind you, I am in no way defending Mr. RLT here, he has busted you back to d-day all over again simply because he is a coward. At least that is how I see it.

I suspect that just like Skirmisher, he has believed all along that if you knew the whole truth about the things he has done, you would have divorced him. If what he is hiding is all prior actions and inappropriate behavior culminating in his most recent affair, then he is much like Skirmisher has been. Too scared to be 100% honest until forced into it.

I sense that you are right about where I was just a few months ago. When we started counseling with Jennifer Chalmers, I was skeptical that there was anything that could help us.

What helped alot for us was Skirmisher posting here and telling the wise folks just what he had done to bring us to the brink of divorce. He honestly didn't think that his offense was that serious. He thought that I was overreacting. He got lambasted and he heard. And most important he learned.

Mr. RLT....if you are reading this.....wake up, what you have done is once again pull the rug out from under your poor wife. After a point, for a BS, it isn't about the SF, it's about the lies. And you have continued to lie to RLT. I don't know what she will do with the information obtained from the polygraph, I don't know what I'd do in her place. Do yourself and her a favor and tell her everything now so that it only needs to be verified by the polygraph. Maybe it will help just a little.

Who

RLT,



I felt the exact same way. However, I had decided that regardless the outcome of my decision to stay, I still wanted to know the truth. Reconciliation now, or in the future, wouldn't have been possible without it for me.


Good question. I've been thinking that it was a false sense of self preservation, immaturity, and just plain ole selfishness. I could probably give some more reasons but those are the main things in my mind.





I guess he didn't want you to divorce him.



Again, I understand. And actually, remembering to breathe is important with this kind of trauma.



And I agree with Believer. I wouldn't call the fatass just yet, or maybe never. The internet OW #2 that my H was having a sexual affair with UP UNTIL A MONTH BEFORE D-DAY, I did talk to her via e-mail to get her side of the story. It took everything I had not to tell her what a disgusting slut she was. Now that I think about it, I should have after I got my info from her. I would hold off until you have more time to think all of this through.

RLT,

He lied...

Yep, that's what someone involved in an affair does.

He lied to OW...

Simply typical.

He lied to OW to break off the affair...

His choice was "I'm a total moron and you're a skanky b*tch so I'm going to try to beg my wife to take me back.." That almost sounds so pathetic she might try to talk him out of it.


He has yet to come completely clean regarding details of the affair...

Should we all compare notes to see when we were sure we knew everything there was to know about the affair that destroyed each of us.

MrRlt,

If you are lurking this afternoon I must tell you that at this point you have one and only one chance and that is to come clean totally, completely with nothing held back and do anything and everything within your power to make it up to her and convince her why she shouldn't send you packing.

It's too late to save face. It's too late to soften the blow. It's too late to figure out a way to solve it by waiting. Too many lies have been told and too much energy has been wasted to get to this point only to have everything fall apart.

Latest revelations have reset RLT's recovery timer to zero as if she just found out about the affair for the first time. You can't just move forward. You have to find a way to make it up to her at this point. It's one of the consequences of what you did. You can be forgiven, but must still pay the price if you want your marriage to survive.

Your only option is to lose your wife after a year of her working to save your marriage. That is not going to go well for you in a divorce which is where this is leading unless you have an epiphany and get busy.

Mark

Agree.



Agree again. And actually, depending on what he's told her and what he may have left to tell her, it'll be much more devastating than her original d-day. Now, she'll have a hard time believing anything that comes out of his mouth for quite some time to come. Actions are the only thing that will see you through this RLT. And lots of them.



Ditto here too. The betrayals with OW that my H had had, were prior to d-day.



And I like to add, again, that this is also the beginning of a true recovery for you. However, it will take a lot of sincere action on your part for quite some time to come to gain RLT's trust back. And in true recovery, you won't be pressuring her to trust you. She may never be able to. Your focus should be on being trustworthy, period.

He's a liar.

Mr RlT..you are a habitual liar and serial adulterer.

I would not be suprised at ANY depths nor would I be willing to believe I had reached the bottom of the hole.

There could be a trail of dead hookers in every town you visit for all I know, I have no reason to think that you are anything other than 100% predator.

RLT...

Please, if it has failed you in the past..PLEASE demonstrate some self preservation and self respect NOW and stop being reasonable and helpfull?

I vote separate from him and let him go to YEARS of counseling and YEARS of demonstrating without hope of reconcile or gratification that he is willing to be honest, invested, committed and address his personal issues.

If you do not do this..if you are willing to once again after MANY betrayals bend over and tolerate this then I really don't know what to tell you other than I sure do wish you'd make a choice to stop drowning.

He Is A Liar.

Stop listening to him. Let Wormtongue deal with his own problems for awhile.

Mini TJ here....

Hi Mrs. W.

Thank you, I pray he gets there too. He has made some big changes but we still have a ways to go. Consistency over time, working through the pain, and being valued above all else is what I need. He seems to be working on that now.

At this point, I'm still processing all the new info and allowing myself time to do it. I am also allowing myself, and him, time to see what his actions are.

((RLT))
I am so sorry.

I'm almost as angry about what Mr.RLT put you through this weekend, as for all the actions before. You were gaslighted.



IMO, this was amongst his cruelest actions. Trying to make you doubt yourself. Trying to manipulate you into silence. Blameshifting the problem to YOU, when its been HIM all along. He put you through this, just to hide his secrets.

You deserve the peace that comes from honesty. You deserve the dignity of him telling that piece of trash the truth. He has been incredibly disrespectful. He has a LOT to make up to you.

I'm sure you are in a whirlwind of emotions. You don't have to make any decisions right now. And give yourself space if you need it.

Mark,



How true that is. I for one don't think I'll ever know the whole truth. But for me, I made the mistake of talking to OW and because she knew the A was over and because she "was in love" with FWH, she very cleverly planted seeds of doubt of such a nature that my FWH would have trouble proving that they were false. Perhaps because she still hoped I would throw him out and he would come running to her.

Who

If you settle for this it will be settling in fear of change, not because it is your honest choice.

You won't be happy with that RLT.

Let go of feeling responsible for everyone end every outcome.

Let go and be emotionally honest with yourself.

It is not OK that he was checked out for your whole marriage.

It is not OK that he cheated on you several times.

It is not OK that he lied to you.

It is not OK that he treated you with contempt and no respect during the bits of your marriage that he was present.

It is not OK that he controlled your choices with deceit and manipulated you to avoid consequences for himself.

It is not OK that he used your "mercy" in reconciling to continue that behavior until he was busted.

It is NOT OK and it MATTERS. Your loss is REAL and measured in YEARS.

You have given first, second, third, and fourth chances to take step ONE.

He has been unwilling for YEARS to take step one.

It is not unreasonable to require him to take steps 1-10 before you even CONSIDER reconcile with him...in fact it is the ONLY safe thing to do.

You need to get away from him RLT.

He is a liar and manipulator and crazymaker.

He knows how to make you doubt yourself.

Get away from him before you make any decisions.

Have no contact with him long enough for YOUR withdrawls to be over before you make any decisons.

If she gets away from him long enough for her to get through withdrawals, (at least 6 months) she won't want him back.

So you are right, it is about fear of change.

Yes, I mostly agree.

I'm not ruling out the potential for a miraculous event to occur but I don't expect one.

If she were to leave, and see that everything would be alright...that her life would WORK...without him..she wouldn't want back in.

I am literally COUNTING on that fact in being probably very annoying to her and holding that mirror up very high and very loud.

No one would volunteer to live this way.

She was young and ignorant before when she lowered her standards to accept his crumbs.

She has been miserable and resentfull ever since.

She has held onto to hope that there was possibility.

Hope is not a plan.

This is about comfort, familiarity, and fear of the unknown.

But the KNOWN is so ugly and horrible that any unknown must surely be no worse and at least you are safe and sane.

If a miracle happened and he was willing to actually follow through and DO these things without guarantee or encouragement from her..then they'd have a shot at a REAL future.

If he's NOT willing to do that under threat of immediate loss...if he's WILLING to just let her go and go on his merry way since she's not available to be used anymore...

Then she's better off without him.

I am very sad for you, RLT.

About the other affairs that are just now coming to light, were these before the one you have been dealing with, or simultaneous to the one you knew about, or even more recent?

so many thoughts going through my head.

I'll be more detailed, and more blunt here:

1) Before M (and 3 years into our relationship he had a ONS with his friend's girlfriend in the back of his van.

2) During marriage, he engaged in inappropriate kissing with three women, one during a party at our house while I was pregnant and with out 2 year old, gone 2000 miles to let the grandson visit HIS parents. Another of the incidents happened with a woman from his work while I was pregnant with third child. He claims that they both had "feelings" for each other as well as kissing.

3) a BJ performed on him by a girl at a party to which I obviously was not present.

4) A ridiculous fantasy love addiction with a woman he met in college (oh, I was his GF then, too, so he cheated there. They kissed, no sex. He wrote poetry and songs to her for 25 years.

5) And of course we can't forget his hootchie mama from the internet, the full blown A that last not 8 months (as I was led to believe, but more like 14 months).

This is what I know so far.

I'm sure there is more.

Man RLT, I am so sorry. This is so much to have to get over.

yeah, chrisner. It is.

Wow, am I understanding that all these happened after you and he were together? What a hard blow! It's amazing that the idea of a lie detector test brought all of this to light. How long do you feel in your heart, has he truly been in NC with all of them?

Mr. RLT,

If you want to recover yourself, you would be doing yourself a huge favor by checking out RecoveryNation.com. There you will be able to see what is wrong with your core values and learn how to overcome them so you don't continue to destroy your life and everyone else's around you.

If you even want a chance with RLT, which you don't deserve since the first time you cheated on her, you will put everything else aside and work the RN program and put your fears and pain aside and help her. You also have to be willing to NOT "give into your immature emotions" and coward out because it's so hard. Don't even tell her the first time that you don't think you can do it. Do tell her that she "is worth going to the ends of the earth to fix it for" but don't expect her to believe a thing you say. Your words mean nothing to her now, only your actions. The more and the quicker the better.

Give her all the space she needs. Pick up her slack because she will be numb and disoriented for months because of you. Please help her clean up your mess regardless of what she feels or decides to do.

Each and everyday you don't do everything you can to fix this, the less chance you'll have with her. I know from experience. If you truly love and value her, none of the above should be any problem at all. In fact, you would be doing it urgently and willingly.

OMG RLT.....I am so sorry.

RLT,
I'm so sorry yu had to hear all of this, but you asked for the wholes truth, did you not?

to the point of insisting he took a lie detector test, right?

So now he has revealed all(?) and you are rightfully devasted by the results. Would you have been less devastated if all were revealed to you in the test?

The question then becomes, from this point on, is how safe will it become for your FWH to become HONEST with you? If you react in a manner that demonstrates to him, that it is detromental to him to be honest, you will never hear honesty again from him. He will simply say to himself, "it is a major liabilty for me to do so.

You asked for and insisted on honesty. How ready were you to hear it??

I know this will smack in the face of what others have posted to you, but that is MHO.

Having received his honest effort here, "what will you do with this?"

The choice is yours, but it will define everything and anything you get from him in the future. Let him know exactly how powerfully he has hurt you. Express it freely.

Then decide what you will allow and not allow in your life. If it's D, so be it. All I'm saying, is you have other options, much better than D. You could, with god"s help, actually reach R in your M. But you have to be open to it.

All Blessings,
Jerry

well, jerry, who is ever really ready to hear all this stuff?

It is a necessary evil. I had to hear it. I had to hear what he was hiding because I could feel he was hiding something.

I HAD to know.

What will I do with it?

I'm still thinking ...

RLT,

I'm with Jerry on this one...

Would it have been easier had he kept it all a secret? He lied. Now he has told the truth. What will you decide to do with it? If you decide for Plan D, so be it. But don't decide based purely on the hurt over finding out the truth.

The wall can come down...

Mark

Problem is I don't think RLT has reached the bottom of the rabbit hole yet. There is yet more to be revealed IMO.

BK, what MORE could there BE???

I am not doubting you at all. I just wonder, how much more? What could he possibly tell me?

I understand the question, what will I do with it.
I am filled with hurt and anger right now, so I can't answer the question.

But I read Noodle, and man, her posts send shivers down my spine. Fear ... yeah. And lots of it.

Well truth is, no one is ever ready to hear that stuff. OTOH, you have been given a gift of sorts, one that I am sure I will never hear.

At least you have the truth in which to make an informed decision about your life. I am sure I will never have that luxuary. I actually envey you in many respects. You can now choose freely what you will do with your truth.

I trust you will listen to God, and understand that D is not His best and first choice for you and your H. He will not disallow it, but it is not His first choice for you. Are you open to this very humbling decision. You will have to be very strong to overcome the resetment.

I think you have it in you RLT, I really do.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I don't know RLT - that is why I still think you should get a Polygraph to make sure you do have everything otherwise you will always wonder.

Know what BK, you are probably right(as usual).

I guess the other prospective I was trying to bring into this discussion, was what is the point?

If your fwh has decided he was totally wrong and now wants to put his best effort int the M and R, well... what better gift could you have dropped into your lap?

Can you overcome your bitterness and resentment, to the point of actually reconsiling your M? Is the bitter truth going to help you do that?

It is your life RLT, but it doesn't have to be filled with bitterness. this, then, becomes YOUR choice. I pray you discern with Wisdom.

All blessings,
Jerry

The only point is Jerry that it would be a sign that MrRLT actually does want to demonstrate absolute transperency openness and honesty - not pay them lip service but demonstrate it.

Because lets face it, he's a pretty convincing liar.

This isn't a man who ended his affair and confessed when busted. It's a man who has been lying to her for their entire marriage. Why should she and how can she believe him now? Just because he says so?

I certainly do not advocate RLT being filled with bitterness. I want her to recover and even to recover her marriage if possible.

I'm sure MrRLT is sorry now - but is he really sorry or just sorry he was caught? Is he sorry enough to give her the full disclosure, openness and honesty recovery requires? That is the question. It would be a great relief to me if I was RLT and my husband had the polygraph and nothing else was revealed. That would be a positive step in rebuilding trust wouldn't it?

[quote] [I'm sure MrRLT is sorry now - but is he really sorry or just sorry he was caught? Is he sorry enough to give her the full disclosure, openness and honesty recovery requires? That is the question. It would be a great relief to me if I was RLT and my husband had the polygraph and nothing else was revealed. That would be a positive step in rebuilding trust wouldn't it?


/quote]
BK, as usual, absolutely true!
In the book by David Carder entitiled " Torn Assunder" he is very poited that the WS must undergo a thing called "godly sorrow" for the havoc that they have imposed upon their BS.
Without it, there will be no true forgiveness or R of the M.

I agree with this 100%, and if a lie detector is neccessary to achieve it, so be it.

All blessings,
Jerry

THE POINT is...a BS should have the truth so that he/she can decide if they want to stay with this person. The truth is the only way to afford a BS that choice.

How are you doing this morning, RLT?

Mark

RLT

Here's the thing that bothers me about your husband's sudden acquiescence toward the lie detector test. His anger about being asked to do it was a dead giveaway that he wasn't living an honest life with you and he knew the gig was just about up. So now all of a sudden he comes clean?

The thing is, this is not the sign of a changed man - just one who will now guilt you into staying in the marriage and giving him one more chance...?

The fruits of a changed man is that he asks nothing of you; in fact, he will help you do what you need to do to feel whole again - and he knows that this is not something HE has the power to do, since he recognizes that he was the one to put you through the shredder.

The reformed and truly repentant cheater focuses on getting to the roots of his own character defects instead of worrying about saving a marriage. Though he's grieved that the marriage may be over, he works hard to take care of your needs, knowing it may be too little too late. He does it anyway. With no expectations.

If you need a divorce, there will be no immature retaliation, no guilt-tripping... He recognizes that he was the one who destroyed this family and he lacks the power to put it back together. So he turns to God - and mans up to this new reality.

If the betrayed spouse heals and wants to give the reformed cheater another chance - that's entirely her choice - and the measure of God's hand in healing her heart. The only way she can come back to this family with hope is through her own wellness - and connection with God - not because she has trust that the changes in her WS are real or lasting. That takes time. And grace. And "staying married" at this point, may or may not provide that time.

RLT - focus on healing for you. And just watch - because if WS pulls any manipulative crap as he did this weekend, you can re-read Noodle's posts to you for the reality you must resign yourself to - and know that now you are doing this to yourself of your own choices.

A wise woman once advised me to prepare for a life separate from my husband. I documented everything I needed to do in order to accomplish this. Then she advised me to just take on one of those things today. I don't have to handle it all today. Just one thing. And then keep breathing and living, taking care of the other necessities of life - my job, my son, my house and yard... That way I didn't have to get overwhelmed. Just filling out the paperwork at the lawyer's office was a reality check for me. And husband. Only my husband didn't get it for 6 months - while he lived in his manipulative world, I moved out of that realm of influence. When we'd meet in our minister's office - that was the only time I'd see him - and he'd lay out all these conditions for reconcillation - I'd look at the minister and say, I don't need to be married that bad. And then I'd be quiet and watch - to see if I could see any sign of that mighty change of heart I Knew I'd need to see before I'd come back.

Meanwhile I just kept handling one thing a day. It still took six months before I saw what I needed to see.

WOW! Your post says so much that hits home with me.

Would you kindly check out my thread and be the wise woman for me. Tell me what your list looked like. I really feel I need to walk away. I need to move forward toward a life separate from my H. And ONLY IF I see the "changed man" you described above will I CONSIDER taking him back.

Medc (and others),

Can you tell me if you know anything about voice polygraphs?

skip the voice polygraph

go with the traditional method

the only advantage I see to a VP is for the person being tested...they are not hooked up to a machine.
But consider this...
A VP works by detecting stress patterns in a persons speech...and it may or may not do it effectively...I guess the jury is still out on them.
A traditional polygraph would interpret that same stress in a few different ways. First, the experienced examiner will pretty much know when someone is bs'ing them...AND the machine will read the responses to the stress...heart rate, BP, perspiration and respiration. I would sooner take my chances with the proven technology.

Mark,

Thank you for checking in on me.

This is the first morning, since the bomb dropped, that I have been alone. My daughter stayed home from school yesterday, so I had to keep my emotions in check.

Now I am starting to put the puzzle pieces together all over again. And everything I thought I knew, is now just trash. I have to re think everything all over again, laying this new information over it.

OMG,I cannot believe the additional lies that are coming to surface. It's making me ill. I just see everyone--Mr. Rlt, OW, IL's, all laughing at me. What a fool I am. Even after he has an affair, I believe his words. I am sick with myself. I hate myself for giving him the benefit of the doubt. He has disrespected me with his continued lies. Yesterday he said he is sorry that now I know everything. I still don't feel I know everything. I just have a feeling. But then again, my thoughts are not even credible. I can't trust myself.

I am smoking again (after one month off). I am not eating. I have pains in my stomach, sharp shooting pains when I walk up the stairs. And I am crying a lot, sometimes uncontrollably. My whole world seems surreal right now. And my kids are very depressed, feeling like they are walking on shaky ground, because they are. They don't know what will happen tomorrow, and I see it in their faces.

Mr. RLT's friend called me yesterday. He is a reformed alcoholic, reborn Christian. He was trying to help, but actually he yelled at me, saying that I had no right to bring up past sins of Mr. RLT, that they are in the past, and I have no right to ask about them because he has already been forgiven by God.

He said that I have to stop playing the victim, because that is what I am doing. He said I am 50% to blame in this because we are all sinners.

He made me feel like $hit. He had the same entitlement attitude as Mr. RLT, and my IL's. He is feeding this to Mr. RLT. Just what he needs, right? More BS. But the scary thing is, is that he is coating it with Christianity.
He also said I am never to bring up the affair again.

These things are true, but not at this point, right? At some point I don't bring up the affair, but right now I'm in the middle of it.

This friend is an adulterer himself. And as a result his children live in another state. He is heartbroken over it. I know his adultery story. It is devious and heinous what he did to his wife.

can you expand on this, MEDC?

oops, I see you already did.

Okay, he told me that VP are 98% conclusive,preferred by FBI, CIA, etc. And that there is no way a person can change the voice patterns to try and cover up a lie. I'm not trying to contradict, MEDC, just putting in more info that he gave me.

The friend of your H is a jerk off. Tell himn to shove his advice up his butt.

When a person takes a polygraph test, four to six sensors are attached to him. A polygraph is a machine in which the multiple ("poly") signals from the sensors are recorded on a single strip of moving paper ("graph"). The sensors usually record:

The person's breathing rate
The person's pulse
The person's blood pressure
The person's perspiration
Sometimes a polygraph will also record things like arm and leg movement.
When the polygraph test starts, the questioner asks three or four simple questions to establish the norms for the person's signals. Then the real questions being tested by the polygraph are asked. Throughout questioning, all of the person's signals are recorded on the moving paper.

Both during and after the test, a polygraph examiner can look at the graphs and can see whether the vital signs changed significantly on any of the questions. In general, a significant change (such as a faster heart rate, higher blood pressure, increased perspiration) indicates that the person is lying.

as I said...I am not really sure of the accuracy of the VP...I would go with your instincts and your level of comfort with the examiner.

RLT,

Am thinking of you. BTW, MR RLT needs new friends, cause the one who called you is a sleezeball, X2.

Who

Your WH's friend has the wayward mindset. Please disregard all that he said to you. It is not credible.

Your WH owes you a LOT, and his honesty is just the tip of the iceberg.

You deserve to build your life or your marriage on a foundation of honesty. For anyone to tell you different is ridiculous!

You have EVERY RIGHT to know the truth. And these are not sins of the past. His lying and omissions are CURRENT sins.

Hmm... Does that friend have a special hotline to God that the rest of us don't know about? Has he actually confirmed with God that your H has been forgiven?

Perhaps that friend of your H needs to be reminded that both dishonesty and pride are sinful - ask him if he thinks God would forgive someone who actively chooses to continue sinning??



Ah... the WS-mindset. That explains it.

Rltraveled,

First of all I want to say that although I didn't follow your story, I have read your posts on other threads, and you are a very bright and intelligent woman.

Your WH has never been honorable. He is not a husband who was honorable for years and then fell into an affair out of character because of poor boudnaries. His behavior has been disgusting. (getting a BJ at a party while his wife is pregnant and visiting his parents, is just disgusting behavior not to mention all the other).

I was with a liar and a cheat, who had the character of an alley cat as well. And I have to tell you I thought I was in ******. I thought I was crazy and stupid. I thought I was a POS. And he let me feel this way. He looked me right in the eyes and lied to me when I begged him to tell me the truth and was literally falling apart because I thought I had lost my mind.



Others may disagree, and you may as well, but I think the kindest thing your WH could do at this time is to leave your house for a while until you can think clearly and make a decision. Also, so the darkness that as descinded upon your home and that is affecting your children can be replaced with a sense of calmness, and happiness. Your kids need to see a mom who is not slowly going insane and racked with pain and uncertainty. You need some time with him gone.

Rltraveled, I would never suggest divorce where children are concerned, except in special cases, and I am not suggesting that to you, but I am suggesting he leave until which time you are healed enough to deal with him again.

I think Kayla's advice and example of what she did to heal and recover and see positive change in him, is exactly what you should do.

RLT...I will agree with one thing here. You need to stop being a victim here. Your smoking is your decision...not eating..your decision. YOU are the only one that will take care of you.
Why are you giving a known adulterer the time and consideration to make you feel like crapp. I am sorry...but there is no reason that YOU should have allowed that conversation to go on for more than 1 minute.
Next...your H is a liar...and look at the company he keeps. IMHO, you would do well to skip the polygraph and head right to divorce. You should hire a bull dog attorney and let loose on your H. You have given enough chances here for 3 lifetimes.
ONLY if you want to recover the M should you be entertaining the polygraph. If you feel that you want to recover...get the test scheduled and done NOW. No more talking about it...no more negotiations...just do it. Let your H know that if ONE MORE lie is found out as a result of the test...his chances have run out. He needs to come clean now if he wants any chance at recovery.
YOU need to start taking control of every aspect of YOUR life starting NOW...this very minute.

yes, yes, yes.

{{{{{RLT}}}}

I have been following your struggle for awhile now. You have had this feeling that your h was still hiding things from you and you kept pushing for those answers. I admire you for that. I also believe there is more to what I know about my h however I have given up on every knowing and knowing that we can never build the kind of marriage that would be possible with everything out in the open.

I do not believe your marriage had a chance with the secrets and lies your h was keeping from you. How could he build intimacy when he was witholding information? He couldn't, it was a marriage built on shifting sand.

Now you have the chance to find out if there is more or if he has told your everything. If you decide at a later time that you want to rebuild your marriage than you can build on that strong foundation. You won't feel like there is somethin out there that is going to come up and bite you again when you least expect it.

Do not let his friend turn this around on you. What you h did and the withholding of information from you relies soley on your h. He could have done things differently but chose not to. You cannot build a future on lies, however you can build a future on honesty. I believe that yes God forgives our sins when we confess however I also believe that we need to go to the person that we have injured and also ask for forgiveness.

I pray that you feel God's arms wrapped around you during this time and that you can feel strength and comfort during this time.

RLT,

I am truly sorry to see you where you are. Is there any relief on some level that you knew there was more but didn't know what?

I agree with medc, choose to take care of yourself and provide a calm, loving envirnment for your children.

I looked up on line Poly vs. voice lie detector tests. You may want to check out www.polygraph.org/voicestress for information.

All the best,

i am crying uncontrollably right now.

I can't breathe.

everything hurts.

all my hopes have been taken away.

[[[[[[RLT]]]]]]]

I was there not that long ago. It's been what? Two months maybe or less?

It hurts like ****** now, I know.

Breathe Rlt, breathe.

My advice, take it or leave it. I kicked my H out of the house when I found out. I did it that night. I had to. I had to be able to think without him near me. I was hurt and confused and his very presence made me want to strangle him for the pain and loss of hope that he caused me.

Kick him out and start taking care of yourself. If he is worth anything as a man, he will do this for you without one ounce of hesitation and defensiveness. He also needs to take care of things for you while you are trying to pull yourself together. NOTHING should be more important to him than him giving you what you need right now, and for a very, very long time to come.

Remember, you don't have to make any decisions now.

Mr. RLT what the f are you doing right this very moment to take care of a woman that you injured so badly?

Make sure you tell your friend to NEVER say another word to your wife that doesn't begin with I am sorry.

Are you proud of yourself?

Ask your wife what you can do to help ease her burden ... then do it.

i'm trying to breathe, mopey.

i was just starting to feel good again.

i hate the OW. I hate her. She is a deplorable excuse for a human being.

I can't kick him out. We have no money. He spent it all on her, and his fun in the affair.

I know. I know you feel hopeless now and that's very understandable. Your marriage may still have a chance, if you want it to, but not unless your H wants true recovery. BUT, you do not have to think about it now.

As far as your H not having enough money to go someplace else....well, that's just too bad for him. He can go stay with his friend who called you, which I think btw is a real pr*ck. He can sleep in his car for all I care. His needs are not that important right now. And, he doesn't need you to have to worry about any of it. He needs to figure out what to do on his own, right now, for you.

And yes, the OW is a sorry excuse for a human being. However, it is your H that deserves the full blame. The OW didn't have vows with you, he did.

I agree with everything Medc said to your H. What is Mr. RLT doing right now for you?

Then he needs to get a second job and start replacing some of that money.

I see by your sig line, he had no trouble moving out twice before, though.

I don't think any of this means all hope is gone, rlt. Maybe it means it is the end of way you have been living all this time. Maybe it means a new beginning. I would seriously take Mopey and Kayla's posts to heart.

You are going to get through this rltraveled. Just like everyone on this board. I hope Orchid stops by.

weaver,
he already has a second job. According to him we are still sinking. He has a tax bill from the 401 withdrawal. I don't know what it is. I don't want to know.

Everyone,

I am sure he is reading.

Can someone PLEASE try and explain to him that this revelation, though extremely painful, was necessary.

I get the distinct feeling that he thinks if this had never come out, we would be doing great right now. He keeps saying stuff like, he was just trying to restore his family. He came back to us. He chose me over her in the end. It's like he wants a medal or something.

He DOES NOT understand how devestating this lie is. He thinks he was protecting me. I think he actually still thinks that he was doing the right thing by keeping it from me.

Can someone gently, objectively explain to him what this is really all about?

He won't accept it from me.

Lies protect no one except the liar.

The fact is you were being hurt every single day that he betrayed you. You have the distinct right to make decisions for your own life based on the truth...not to be fooled into thinking things are okay. NO ONE...NO ONE ...has the right to hold the truth back from you. Your H still has a wayward mindset if he feels that lies were protecting you.

This is all very sad.

I'd be happy to explain it to him.

One on one even.

The bottom line is that he was NOT protecting YOU.

Protecting YOU would have looked like being a faithfull man invested in his family and participating in the actual real life that he chose.

He was protecting HIMSELF and his ability to make choices without accepting the consequences.

Trueheart's Letter

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years.

I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in.

The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well.

They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you?

We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty.

You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on.

I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water.

We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok.

What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!

The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A.

I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us.

You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all.

The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family.

It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you.

The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life".

I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was.

I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter.

They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!!

Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them??

By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life.

You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process.

What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage.

They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand.

They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before.

I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write *edit* There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!

*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*

Truehear

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.
But there is a third reason that honesty is crucial in marriage. Honesty is the only way that you and your spouse will ever come to understand each other. Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions.
Most couples do the best they can to make each other happy, at least for a while. But their efforts, however sincere, are often misdirected. They aim at the wrong target. Ignorance, not lack of effort, is often the most important cause of their ultimate downfall.
Couples are not only ignorant of ways to improve their marriages; they are often ignorant of the problems themselves. To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, personal history, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a failure to meet an important emotional need, and a withdrawal of love units when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table?
To help you understand how honest you need to be to have a successful marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty. I call it "radical" because that's how many see my position on the subject. But I view my policy as simply advocating complete honesty in marriage. In our culture I guess that's a radical idea.
The Policy of Radical Honesty
Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.
To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:
1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.
2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.
3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.
4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.
To some extent this policy seems like motherhood and apple pie. Who would argue that it's not a good idea to be honest? But in my years of experience as a marriage counselor, I have constantly struggled with the belief of many clients that dishonesty can be a good idea under certain conditions. Moreover, pastors and counselors themselves often advise dishonesty when a spouse has committed a particularly thoughtless act, such as infidelity. And many marital therapists warn against complaining, something that some consider one of the seven deadly sins of marriage. So instead of complaining, spouses often stuff their feelings and try to put a good face on a bad situation.
Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.
Because there are so many out there who advocate dishonesty in marriage, I will describe the four parts of my Policy of Radical Honesty, and explain to you why I think they are so important in marriage.


The Policy of Radical Honesty
Emotional Honesty
Reveal your emotional reactions, both
positive and negative, to the events of your life,
particularly to your spouse's behavior.
Some people find it difficult to openly express negative reactions. They may fear that their response will be interpreted as criticism. Or they may feel ashamed of their own reactions, telling themselves they should not feel the way they do. They may want unconditional acceptance from their spouses and consider that their negative reactions prove their own inability to be unconditionally accepting. Whatever the reasons, many spouses try to avoid expressing their negative emotional reactions.
While positive reactions are easier to communicate, many couples have not learned to express these feelings, either. This failure not only misses an important opportunity to accurately communicate basic feelings, but it also misses an opportunity to deposit love units. Whenever your spouse has made you feel good, if you express those feelings clearly and enthusiastically, you'll reward your spouse for having made an appropriate adjustment to you. That, in turn, makes your spouse feel good.
If you want to meet each other's emotional needs, and you want to overcome Love Busters, one essential ingredient is an honest expression of your emotional reactions to each other. What makes a marriage successful is your willingness and ability to accommodate each other's feelings. And without the facts about those feelings, an otherwise happy couple can become very unhappy as the events of life change.
The conditions that existed at the time of your marriage were partly responsible for the love you had for each other. Those conditions made it easy for you to meet each other's emotional needs, and tended to ward off Love Busters. They may have made you feel perfect for each other, because you did not have to do much to make each other happy.
But if you are like most couples, those conditions changed right after your marriage and have continued to change right up to the present. If you have not been able to adjust to those changes, you are probably very disillusioned about your compatibility. What had seemed effortless at first may seem impossible for you now.
But adjustment in marriage is not impossible. In fact, it may be quite a bit easier than you think. Because of the way your brain is put together, you have the ability to make remarkable adjustments to each other throughout life, as your environment changes. But in order to be successful, you must do four things:
First, you must realize that these changes will take place, whether you want them to or not. Many of the circumstances surrounding you cannot be controlled and will be changing constantly.
Second, you must stick to your goal of meeting each other's most important emotional needs, and avoiding Love Busters regardless of the change in conditions. A change can be very distracting, and can cause both of you to lose sight of your primary objectives in life. Don't let these changes cause you to lose sight of each other.
Third, you must be totally committed to making all of your decisions jointly and enthusiastically. Changes in circumstances require new decisions, and each must be made with each other's feelings in mind. Otherwise, the changes will leave one of you in the dust. Don't go on in life unless you are both on board.
And finally, in order to make the best decisions, you must be radically honest with each other about your emotional reactions to the changes in your lives. The best decisions take the emotional reactions of both of you into account simultaneously, but without an honest expression of those reactions, you will be missing the target.
While some couples may fail to make a successful adjustment after feelings are honestly explained, failure is almost guaranteed when the need for adjustment is never communicated. Always take each other's complains seriously. As I mentioned earlier, your emotional reactions are a gauge of whether you are making a good adjustment to each other. If you both feel good, you need no adjustment. If one or both of you feel bad, a change is indicated.
But let me also explain what honesty is not. It is not selfish demands or disrespectful judgments or angry outbursts.
Expressing a feeling is not the same as expressing demands. If you try to tell your spouse what to do, you are not revealing an honest feeling; you are making a demand. If your spouse does something that bothers you, the correct way to express it is simply say that it bothers you. The Policy of Joint Agreement would take over from that point to help you try to resolve the problem.
If you tell your spouse that he or she is wrong about something, you're not being honest, you are being judgmental. While you should be free to express your beliefs and opinions, you should respect your spouse's beliefs and opinions. If you try to "straighten out" your spouse, you are not being honest; you are making a disrespectful judgment. The expression of feeling should not carry judgmental baggage with it.
It goes without saying that angry outbursts are not expressions of honesty, either. When people have them, they often think that they are being honest, but that's their Taker trying to rationalize what is actually cruel and destructive. Whatever it is you have to say when you are angry is not worth saying. Keep that basic principle in mind so that you will keep your mouth shut when you feel angry. When you have recovered from your anger, it's safe to tell your spouse what was bothering you.
Failure to express negative feelings perpetuates the withdrawal of love units. It prevents a resolution to a marital conflict, because the conflict is not expressed. Negative feelings provide evidence that a couple has not yet achieved a successful marital adjustment. More work is needed.
But positive feelings not only offer proof for a successful adjustment, but they also provide a reward to the spouse that has been successful. Don't neglect to tell each other how you feel when you are happy.
Now we're ready to look at the second part of this Policy of Radical Honesty. This part faces the reality that history often repeats itself.


The Policy of Radical Honesty
Historical Honesty
Reveal information about your personal
history, particularly events that
demonstrate personal weakness or failure.
Whenever you and your spouse make a decision together or try to resolve a conflict with the Policy of Joint Agreement, one factor that must never be ignored is your past. That's because mistakes and successes of the past often provide evidence of what's likely to happen in the future.
While many people feel that embarrassing experiences or serious mistakes of the past should be forgotten, most psychologists recognize that these are often signs of present weakness. For example, if someone has ever had an affair, he may be vulnerable to another one. If someone has ever been chemically dependent, he is vulnerable to drugs or alcohol abuse in the future. By expressing past mistakes openly, your spouse can understand your weaknesses, and together you can avoid conditions that tend to create problems for you.
No area of your life should be kept secret. All questions asked by your spouse should be answered fully and completely with periods of poor adjustment in your past given special attention. Not only should you explain your past to your spouse, but you should also encourage your spouse to gather information from those who knew you before you met your spouse. I have encouraged couples that are considering marriage to meet with several significant people from each other's past. It's often a real eye-opener!
I carry this Policy of Radical Honesty about your past all the way to the disclosure of all premarital and extramarital sexual relations. That's because those experiences are among your most important experiences in life, and your spouse should know anything you regard as important. Past sexual experiences also create a contrast effect in marriage, and it's inevitable that you will compare your spouse sexually with all other past sexual relationships. Knowing your sexual history can make present sexual problems much easier to understand.
I've had clients argue that if they tell their spouses about mistakes made decades earlier, their spouses will be crushed and never trust them again. Why not just leave that little demon alone?
My answer is that it's not a "little demon." If you've had an affair, it's an extremely important part of your personal history, and it says something about your predispositions. If you've had an affair in the past, your spouse shouldn't trust you -- I certainly wouldn't.
But what if you haven't strayed since it happened? What if you've seen a pastor regularly to hold you accountable? Why put your spouse through the agony of a revelation that could ruin your relationship forever?
I'd say you don't give your spouse much credit! Honesty does not drive a spouse insane -- dishonesty does. People in general, and women in particular, want to know exactly what their spouses are thinking and feeling. When you hold something back, your spouse tries to guess what it is. If he or she is right, then you must continually lie to cover your tracks. If he or she is wrong, an incorrect understanding of you and your predispositions develops.
Maybe you don't really want to be known for who you are? That's the saddest position of all. You'd rather keep your secret than experience one of life's greatest joys -- to be loved and accepted in spite of your weaknesses.
Some counselors have argued that the only reason people reveal past infidelity is because of anger. They are deliberately trying to hurt their spouses with that information. Or they might be doing it to relieve their own guilt at the expense of their spouse's feelings.
While it's true that the spouse usually feels hurt, and vengeance or feelings of guilt motivate some, whenever correct information is revealed, an opportunity for understanding and change is presented. That opportunity is more important than unhealthy motives or momentary unhappiness.
Some revelations may need to be made in the presence of a professional counselor to help control the emotional damage. Spouses sometimes have difficulty adjusting to revelations that have been kept secret for years. In many cases, they're not reacting to the revelation as much as the fact that they'd been lied to all that time.
Some spouses with emotional weaknesses may need personal counseling to help them adjust to the reality of their spouses' past. The saints they thought they married turn out to be not so saintly. But the most negative reactions to truth that I've witnessed have never destroyed a person or a marriage. It's dishonesty that destroys intimacy, the feeling of love, and marriages.
When a couple first see me for counseling, I have them complete my Personal History Questionnaire, which systematically reviews many of the significant events of their past. I ask them to share their answers with each other and feel free to ask any questions that would be triggered by them.
I offer you the same opportunity to investigate each other's past. I have posted that questionnaire for you to copy and complete. Simply click the name of the questionnaire in the previous paragraph and be sure to make two copies, one for both of you. Leave nothing out and be willing to pursue any line of inquiry that will help you better understand each other's past.


The Policy of Radical Honesty
Current Honesty
Reveal information about the events of your
day. Provide your spouse with a calendar
of your activities, with special emphasis on
those that may affect your spouse.
After six years of marriage, Ed discovered that it was easier to have a sexual relationship with a woman at the office than with his wife, Jennifer. As a result, he found Peggy a welcome solution to his sexual frustration. He spent time alone with her several times a week, and their sexual relationships was as fulfilling as he could have ever imagined.
Ed justified this infidelity by assuming he was doing Jennifer a favor by not imposing his sexual requirements upon her. Whenever Jennifer wanted to make love to him, he happily accommodated her, but she didn't feel a sexual need more than once or twice a month.
Ed didn't want to share information about his daily activities with Jennifer, since honesty would have ruined any hope of continuing this very satisfying solution. Moreover, the announcement of this relationship would have upset her. He still loved her very much and would not have wanted to put her through the grief of such a disclosure. So to preserve a temporary solution to his problem and to keep Jennifer from experiencing intense emotional pain, he felt that dishonesty was justified.
In good marriages, couples become so interdependent that sharing a daily schedule is essential to their coordination of activities. But in weak marriages, couples are reluctant to provide their schedules, because they are often engaged in an assortment of Love Busters. They may know that their spouses would object to their activities, so they tell themselves, What they don't know won't hurt them. They have what I call a "secret second life."
But there are many who really have nothing to hide; yet they feel the need for privacy. They are offended when their spouse asks where they've been or what they've done. They feel that their spouse should trust them, and not assume the worst.
I'm dead-set against privacy in marriage, because it creates an unnecessary barrier to problem solving. When you and your spouse married, two became one. That means that prior to marriage, you had no one but yourself to consider when you made choices, and now you have each other to consider. There should be no part of your life that is off limits to your spouse, because literally everything that either of you do will ultimately affect each other. Privacy breeds incompatibility because it represents a part of your life that is off limits to accommodation.
Even when activities are innocent, it's extremely important for your spouse to understand what you do with your time. Be easy to check up on and find in an emergency. Give each other your daily schedules so you can communicate about how you spend your time. Since almost every thing you do will affect your spouse, it is important to explain what it is you do.
If Jennifer and Ed had established a habit of exchanging daily information early in their marriage, his affair would have been almost impossible to arrange. And if they had negotiated with the Policy of Joint Agreement, his sexual problem would have been addressed and resolved.
Honesty is a terrific way to protect your spouse from potentially damaging activities. By knowing that you'll be telling your spouse what you've been up to, you're far less likely to get either of you into trouble.


The Policy of Radical Honesty:
Future Honesty
Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding
future activities and objectives.

After having made such a big issue of revealing past indiscretions, you can imagine how I feel about revealing future plans. They're much easier to discuss with your spouse, yet many couples make plans independently of each other.
Some couples don't explain their plans because they don't want to change them, even if their spouses express negative reactions. They feel that explaining a future plan may prepare the evening for war, and their spouses will successfully scuttle the plan.
Some don't explain their future plans because they don't think their spouses would be interested. There's nothing upsetting about the plan, so there'd be no point in revealing it.
But even if your plans are innocent, when you fail to tell your spouse your future plans, you're being dishonest. You don't really know what your spouse's reaction will be, and by failing to give advance notice, you may create a problem for the future. Besides, if you and your spouse are partners in life, your plans are important to both of you, whether your spouse feels that way or not.
You may feel your plans are best for both you and your spouse. Once your spouse sees the plan succeed, he or she will be grateful that you went ahead with it. Or, you may feel that if you wait for your spouse's approval, you will never accomplish anything. Perhaps your spouse is so conservative that if you wait for his or her approval, you think you'll miss every opportunity that comes your way.
Regardless of how you feel about revealing your plans, failure to do so will leave your spouse in the dark. While no love units are withdrawn at the time you're deceitful, they're almost sure to be withdrawn when your spouse realizes you've held back information. It also sets up the loss of more love units if your plans fails to take your spouse's feelings into account.
How many hours of waking time to you have at your disposal? Do you schedule any or all of that time? Do you and your spouse share your weekly schedules with each other before you commit yourselves to that time?
Since your schedule each week is part of your future plans, every hour you schedule should be discussed with your spouse before you firm them up. I suggest that every Sunday afternoon at 3:30, you and your spouse set aside one-half hour to go over your schedules for the coming week. That way you will not only know what each of you is doing that week, but you will have an opportunity to change any part of the schedule.
Of course, it would make sense for you to discuss your schedule on a daily basis, so that each new item could be reviewed as it comes along. But the reason that I suggest a final review on Sunday afternoon, is to get you into the habit of giving each other a chance to veto anything in either of your schedules that does not have your enthusiastic agreement. Get used to the idea that you simply cannot do something that your spouse does not like. And give your spouse an opportunity to react to whatever it is you are planning to do.
Now we will switch gears. So far, I have introduced Basic Concepts that help you make Love Bank deposits (Emotional Needs) and help you avoid making Love Bank withdrawals (Love Busters). But there is another topic that no couple should ever ignore, and that's how to negotiate. You already know that you can't make demands to get what you want. And you can't be disrespectful or angry. What's left?
What's left is thoughtful and respectful negotiation. Once you become skilled negotiators, you will not only find real solutions to your problems, but the very process of finding those solutions will be enjoyable for both of you.
But before I show you how to become skilled negotiators, I will show you why negotiating can be so tough in marriage.

RLT,

Ask him to start his own thread here. I understand what this feels like for you. I had every bit of progress I had made toward recovery ripped away from me in the blink of a eye just a few months ago. And why, so Skirmisher could feel like a tough guy to one of his friends.

He didn't feel very tough at all when I asked him to leave and he realized that he wouldn't be able to live on his freelance income. He ended up contacting a friend to ask for a job, which, BTW went no where. This so called friend hasn't even contacted him to see how he is doing.

Looking back, if Skirmisher hadn't listened and learned from the responses on his thread here and if we hadn't done the MC with Jennifer, I honestly believe that I would have filed for divorce by now. And when Skirmisher forlornly said he would have to live in his car, well I felt no pity or concern at all.

Mr. RLT doesn't get it yet, that is pretty clear. And until he gets it, he really has smashed your last hope of recovering. Someone here once said this about my FWH, and I think it fits. Mr. Rlt knows that he is hurting you and he doesn't want to. He just hasn't grasped that even tho the truth would have hurt, it was necessary.

I am so sorry.

Who

Why is he under the impression that you need to explain yourself to him?

YOU are not the person whose lies and adulteries are creating a series of consequences.

You want and need the truth because you say so.

That is good enough for him or HE isn't good enough for YOU.

This is more manipulation and gaslighting and blameshifting.

I sincerely hope Mr. RLT will thoroughly read through Trueheart's Letter and the policies.

I also hope, per Who's advice, that he start his own thread.

I sincerely hope he pulls his head out of his colon.

RLT,

I have been following your thread and feel such sadness for you. I recently suffered a short false recovery and my H has since left our home and wants a divorce.

I have one thing to say to your WH:

There is NOTHING more important to a BS than total, complete, full, nothing-left-hiding honesty. It is only then that we can begin to put the pieces that never fit where they belong. It is only then that we can trust OURSELVES because we see how often our gut was right when your words and actions were full of deception. Tell her EVERYTHING. Exhaust yourself in sharing with her all that might be remotely relevant. HIDE NOTHING. Let her make the decision what to do with it. Fall face down on the ground emotionally before your wife and spiritually before your God. Only then, can anything be authentic between the two of you...the three of you...because God is in this marriage, too.

To you RLT, I feel your hurt. I ache for you. I must say, though, that at this moment you now have (for the first time), what I long to have. A H who is going to tell you everything and is willing to back it up with a polygraph. I would listen to everything he is going to share, and then I would BACK IT UP with the test. For the first time, you have the opportunity to have an authentic relationship, or at least the potential for one. Check his motives, check his spirit, check his attitude. I am not that experienced, but I am beginning to understand the idea of entitlement and WS attitude.

You certainly have every right to leave and never look back (as do I). But you also stand in a position that you never have before, empowered with the truth.

Mr RLT:

The point of asking her to explain herself to you is so that you can continue to invalidate her wishes and poke holes in her expectations and make her doubt her perceptions.

This is all to protect your ability to have a cake eating lifestyle.

Knock it off.

Accept your consequences.

Man up.

Quit hiding behind your wife trying to get HER to accept the consequences FOR you.

That is wimpy and despicable.

And don't forget about the no-contact letter you are going to send to OW. By the way, this is done out of respect for your wife, approved by and mailed by her.

There are several example's here, and if needed we can preview as well.

He did sent a NC letter back in January. But get this, in it, he said something like, "although we haven't seen each other for the past 8 or 9 months, there will be no contact ... blah blah blah.

That was a LIE, guys! They HAD been seeing each other just a couple months BEFORE!!!

So, OW probably knows I MADE him send the letter, and laughs it of as some kind of JOKE!!

What a fool they have both made of me.

I want that F*** B*** Other Woman to know the TRUTH!!!

And she will. I will let her know it.

Previous post to Mr. RLT from another poster......



I'd like to add, be humble and not defensive in any way. You have nothing, relevant at this point, to be defensive about. However, RLT does. Let her get her anger out and then let her grieve while you love her through it. Get the book "How Can I Forgive You", by Janis Springs. Don't wait for extra money to come along, or wait for RLT to take care of it, and get this book. Skip you lunch for the next few days and get it please. You can help her tremendously with this book. That is, IF you want to help her.



This is sooooo true.

skip the OW for right now. Your H is the one that you should be worrying about...HE is the culprit here....HE deserves your wrath.
Focus on what you want to do and set a plan to make that happen. Your anger is not going to get you anywhere unless you channel it properly...

FOCUS.

okay, medc. Forget f*** b*** ow for now.

I need to focus. I need energy for this.

mopey, we have that book. I gave it to him, but I don't think he read much of it.

NO! What fools they have made of themselves. The shame is all theirs. I will tell you though rlt, somehow your WH has gotten the impression that he is doing you a favor..."I chose you over her"...when in actuality him not losing you and his family up to this point has been a miracle. His sense of entitlement is obnoxious.

Now he is giong to have to prove his worthiness. Now as Noodle says, he will become a man or slink away in shame. Let's see which it will be.

I shouldn't post here on this thread anymore, as I cannot be gentle. I just don't have it in me, after reading this thread. Sorry rlt.

The others are doing great at it though.

weaver, I hit him, remember?

It's difficult to be gentle in this situation.

I am trying to be, but it's difficult.

RLT

I am so so sorry for what you are going through. I dont even know what to say. I am just sick reading this.

Your H was not protecting YOU at all by not coming clean. He was protecting HIMSELF. It was incredibly disresptful of him to attempt to control what you can and cant know, to make decisions based on what HE feels you can handle. The fact that he has been honest NOW even looses some luster because of the *way* his honesty came to be. He was honest ( and I seriously question whether he really has been completely honest) simply because he had no choice.

I am so sorry for you, RLT. You have some very difficult choices to make. Let me say this. Please do not let fear decide for you. You say you are broke and thus, Mr RLT cannot leave? You are not responsible for arranging a comfy place for him to go to He is responsible for his actions and the consequences thereof. IF you want him to leave, so be it. He needs to figure that out.

You cant fix him, RLT. In trying to do so, to "fix" everything for everyone you are allowing the cost to rest squarely upon your own shoulders.

Please please, take care of YOU. Reflect back on your life with him. Is this really want you want? Dont you deserve better? I KNOW you do.

I'm not sure any amount of explaining, by anyone, will do any good. You explain to and lecture and teach a child. Not a spouse.

You set a boundary -- you've said that you won't accept any more lies. You said it a long time ago.

He believes what he wants to belive -- that lying is acceptable and maybe even neccesary.

So, he chose to lie.

Now you choose to accept it or not.

You can keep doing his job (arranging the lie detector, trying to prove the truth, all the other heavy recovery lifting, etc.) and let him get away with his lying.

Or you can remove yourself from the liar (and all his excuses) and let him face his own consequences and make him do the heavy lifting and fixing of the problems he caused himself.


It's up to you to decide what action to take now. All the explaining and talking in the world isn't going to do you any good when you're both so far apart on what type of behavior is acceptable (lying or not).

This is an opportunity for him to finally purge all the deceit, lies and ugliness from your lives and give YOU an opportunity to make a decision with all the facts Maybe you will leave him. Maybe you wont. The point is - you at least have the ability to make that choice. His actions have paralyzed you and have prevented any real intimacy from ever happening in your marriage.



No, HE would be doing great. YOU would be back where you were, feeling like you are slowly going crazy, obsessing - pouring over his comptuer trying to get some shred of proof to back up what your gut was telling you all along


Protecting you from what? From knowing who it is you are married to? For not respecting you enough to even give you the truth? He was protecting HIM.



RLT- hon - You dont have to try to fix him. You dont have to focus on making things better for him.

RLT,

Why did you not hang up the phone on MrRLT's friend?

He has his opinions. Sounds to me that if you accept him yelling...being forceful with his "shoulds" in your life about your stuff...then you are doing that to yourself...which can show up as you telling yourself you are a fool for having not known what was intentionally hidden from you?

Doesn't make you a fool at all...nor does it make you crazy to have chosen to believe his words...now it's time to not believe his words. See his stuff as his own...his truth, not the truth. Takes a heckuva lot of self-deception to have A's...I know. I lived that way. Doesn't say one darn thing about you at all...says "I lie to myself, therefore I lie to others."

You kicking your own self serves a purpose...a destructive one...it's a pattern...you make different choices, you have a different life experience. Do you know now you can choose to not believe for yourself what your WH says...his stuff as his...don't take it into your own beliefs and make it true...that's your half. Doesn't mean you don't love...you don't believe...there's the difference.

You're getting great advice here...focus on yourself...what you're doing...and not doing. Setting your own boundaries takes the all or nothing out of this situation...which will greatly lessen your fear/pain right now. Breathe.

This isn't all or nothing...it's huge...absolutely...listen to YOURSELF...hear what how you're name-calling inside...isn't real or true, is it? Get to know what you allow and why...then you'll see your right-now with clearer eyes, a steadier heart, 'k?

LA

To answer your question,
At the time of your post, I was on the phone with RLT, asking her what I could do, asking her to please eat, take a walk, to please take care of herself, to call me for anything, then I asked her to put our son (18) on the phone, and asked him to make sure she ate something. That's what I was doing.
Thank you, I appreciate all you are trying to do...

okay, LA

I have opened a new thread in recovery:
A Former Wayward seeks support.
I look forward to your continued support and advice.
Thank you,
FWHofRLT

RLT, I really feel for you.

Remember, you're not a fool. You've experienced a massive trigger, and now your body is reacting. Your emotions are running wild, trying to handle all of this new pain. I saw you talking about breathing--that's good. Try to slow down as best you can.

I wish I had better advice.

rlt-

I just wanted to respond to something your F(?)WH's friend said about not bringing back past sins because "God had forgiven". It's been bugging me all day.

It isn't that simple-and it isn't what the bible says. These aren't my ideas. They are Jesus' teachings.

He was talking to his Jewish audience and, once again, He was clarifying the difference between following the "rules" and actually living out one's faith. He said that if any of them was in the temple with an offering to God (to ask for forgiveness) and remembered an offense against their brother, that person was to leave the offering and go to the brother they offended to ask forgiveness. Jesus instructs us to go to those we have sinned against and confess and then ask forgiveness of God. (Matt 5:23-24)

Yes, God forgives true repentant hearts. But God is also interested in the offender owning what they did. Because that is what repentance is, confessing and then turning away from the behavior.

In the parable of the Prodigal son, the son had to "come to his senses" and then come back. He was prepared to ask forgiveness and then to say to his father he wasn't worthy of being called his son anymore. The Prodigal was willing to become a servant. The interesting part of this is, in the parable, the Prodigal makes his confession "Father I have sinned against God and you..." but that's as far as the father lets him go. The Prodigal had to own what he did, and then the grace of forgiveness restored him. (Luke 15:11-24).

God will forgive us if we ask, but He doesn't let us shrug our responsibility in the process.

Are you angry yet? Righteous anger at the manipulation you have endured - even today?

Your husband has not yet earned the F he so brazenly places in his MB I.D. - he is not a FORMER wayward. He is still acting on entitlement -

A precious passage of scripture defines the difference between being forgiven OF one's sins and expecting to be forgiven while IN one's sins.

BTW, It's an evil person who claims to speak for God as your husband's friend did today. An unrepentant adulterer and enabler of another adulterer is not qualified to receive such revelation.

The OW in my sitch also claimed to speak for God - so much so and I worked hard to correct her way of thinking. I lost a lot of my own recovery time trying to do that.

Please block this man's phone number from being able to call you in the future. There's a code your phone company can set you up with to program his number into your personal do not accept calls from this number. He can go to the trouble of calling from another number, at which point you can file a harassment complaint with the police department, setting up the foundation for a restraining order if needed in the future. Since he's decided to be your husband's evil puppet and evil mouthpiece, he deserves no less.

Do not give your husband another day of heart-ripping pain like you experienced today.

Time to pull out your Scarlett O Hara attitude - "I'll think about that tomorrow" - put it in a God Box and let God handle it. Check out the list I posted on SMB's thread. Get started.

You all are amazing.

I thank you.

Johnstwin, thank you for the biblical explanations about sin. It makes so much sense.

RLT

How are you this morning? Ive been thinking about you all night and this morning. Lets talk about YOU. Vent away, girl

JK,

I really don't know where I would be right now, if not for you and everyone on here. I don't know your faces, but you all have truly been a Godsend to me. My own family doesn't give me this. Thank you.

I had a rough night's sleep. I kept thinking about $hit. I prayed a lot. I asked God to please, please take this out of my brain for jus a few hours so I can rest. I asked Him for wisdom and guidance in this. And I prayed for my husband, that He would find a way to break through to him, show him the true bottom so he can begin to work himself up. I just prayed for answers, and also for my kids who are living in a silent he77 right now. They were just beginning to feel safe. Now the ground shakes beneath them, again.

We go to counseling in a couple hours. I am going armed with a list of what I need, and a list of my boundaries.

I am scared, JK, because today I am not feeling very forgiving. I don't hate Mr. RLT. I am just tired of suffering at his hand. But everyone tells me not to make life changing decisions in my current emotional state, so I am just going to sit here for awhile.

Just a suggestion for you to consider, RLT.

When you pray about this...don't ask for anything specific. Don't ask for God to do anything specific.

Instead, ask God to make His will happen in this situation.

During the time after d-day in my own case, all I could do is pray. All I asked for was God to make His will happen. If His will was for my marriage to recover, then I asked that He open our eyes and our hearts and show us that. And to give us the strength and wisdom to see that through. And if His will was that my marriage was over, then I asked that He make that happen, and that He give us the strength and wisdom for that plan as well.

After all...His plan for you, for your husband...that's all going to be far better than what you could ever plan out, isn't it?

My wife cried when she heard that this had been what I was praying for all along.

You should have seen all the miracles that happened during that time that all lead to our marriage recovering.

God is awesome when you let Him run the show.

Thank you, Owl. I am doing just that.

19.578

How could you not be scared? What you are going through is enormous. Youve been fighting for your M and sanity for a good long while and you find out that nothing is as you have been led to believe. It seems particularly cruel now, as your H purported to "understand" how destructive lies and deceit are. You question everything. What you believed about yourself, your husband and your place in the world. What could possibly make sense now? That is some scary stuff, my friend.

You are right in that making any permenant decisions is to be avoided. HOWEVER, do not let that stop you from asking for what you need to recover. Good for you for going to the counseling session with a list of what you need.

Now is the time to set absolute boundries and let Mr RLT step up to the plate. Lets see what he is made of and if he deserves you.

You can do this. Whatever happens, YOU will be ok.

I'll be thinking of you today. {{{{}}}}}}

(((((rlt))))))

You don't have to be forgiving today. You just do what you need for RLT. RLT is who is important today and tomorrow. Remember when tomorrow gets here, it's today again. Focus on you and what you need for now. What the kids need comes next. All the rest will work itself to God's will. But take care of RLT.

(((((RLT))))

Fled

Back from counseling.

She is recommending a controlled separation in the same house.

Has anyone done this?

What do you think about calling Dr. Harley's radio show?

I think the Harley's sometimes have insights and strategies that are a little different than the conventional wisdom around here, and with as crazy as things have gotten in your sitch, it might be nice to have that insight. And calling him on the radio show is free. Plus he'll probably take extra time with you even after you're off the air.

Just a thought....

I think an in-house separation could lead to even more problems and distance. Plus it's awkward and unnatural feeling -- and it's not like you need even more of that. Does he eat if you cook dinner for the whole family, or do you throw his clothes in with the wash while you're doing them? If yes, then are you meeting his needs and encouraging his bad behavior .... if not, then are you being petty ....

Do you really want to be worried about that level of minutia when you've already got enough on your plate? SH once told me NOT to try to Plan B in the same house, and that if you're not in Plan B, then you have to be in Plan A.

That's just my opinion, though, and it was in a different sitch. I would say call the Harleys for better specifics.

-AmI.

RLT,

I agree with Owl on how to pray about this or any situation for that matter. What God wants for us is so much more and so much better than anything we could ever dream up. When Jesus was praying in the garden he did NOT want to experience what was about to happen to him and yet He prayed, "Not MY will, but YOURS," to the Father.

God will give us comfort, but that isn't the same as removing our pain or suffering. The word comfort comes from two words. The preface, 'com' means "with" and the second is from the word "forte" which as any musician knows means "strength" or "power." So when He tells us He will give us "comfort" it means we can endure our trials "with strength" and "with HIS power" instead of having to deal with it alone.

This forum can be a source of strength and an example of God sending people into our lives to help us to cope with our misery. Those who have already suffered can become our guide in dealing with our own pain.

But it all stems from God having His way in our lives, regardless of what we want and realizing that what He wants for us is the BEST, not just for now, but for eternity as well. He does not want us to suffer indefinitely, and He can give us the strength, by giving us His power, to get us through.

Mark

RLT...I think the suggestion by your therapist is typical of a therapist that has no clue about what they are doing. In my opinion, your H needs to leave until he has demonstrated an extended ability to do the right thing. Actions!
IMHO, he has earned his way out the front door and needs to make a lot of changes before he ever earns his way back in.
I think the therapists suggestion is going to result in prolonged craziness for you...and I would not only NOT follow that plan...I would dump the therapist.

RLT,

I'm with Ami...no way. We did that...it was like living a fantasy. We were married in separate rooms...and it was awful. Awful for us and the kids. Confusing, overlapping...distancing.

Boundaries aren't all or nothing. They are predetermined, progressive enforcements. Not 0 or 180.

POJAing other ways of amends...which is what I hear your WH asking for...a road back where he walks a lot of steps...and your list of enforcements, carefully thought out...and your focus on your choices, not his.

You are as much a blessing to all the posters here as they are to you...there's got to be rejoicing in all the love, the encouragement, connection and prayers I see in abundance on your thread. That's part of your understanding, your growth, I think. Thank you for being here so all this can happen.

In that POJA...possibilities...communication exercises (which will also aid PORH), group support (includes MB, and another IRL); separate IC for WH...even with MC...times for walks and being together in silence...

First you decide your half...if you are going to stay in this marriage or not. And you're right...reeling from the emotional chaos isn't a great place to make that decision and hard not to do so reactively. You made the decision before to recover your marriage. Sometimes you have to rely on those reasons anew...you didn't stay because of who WH was...or H was...you chose to stay because of who you were and what you wanted.

Ask yourself...what's changed? How you stay has changed, I think. Not the why.

LA

I did a controlled separation and it was very helpfull.

Get a new MC. That is the stupidest idea that I've ever heard.

Arghh ... now I'm confused!

I guess that is the whole problem RLT...you are confused.
You are in no position right now to decide to stay or leave your H.
You should put some physical space between you to start working through that.
In the meantime, he can do the polygraph...it is scheduled RIGHT??? You scheduled this already right Mr. RLT???????? Right?
If he passes and you decide that you want to work on things, call the Harley's...get a game plan....let him court you and earn his way back into your life.

I think it would be very tough to do the separation in the same house. Essentially you just stop talking to each other and have no privacy, or you get resentful because your there, he's there, but no one is working together. How is that helpful? Can you get time for yourself that way, and feel comfortable with it? If you think separation for a time is the answer, then he needs to figure out who he can stay with temporarily while you have some time. Then he can interact with you on your terms, when you are ready. Whereever he goes, he still must maintain complete transparency. Does he have ANY trustworthy friends?

(((RLT))) Just breathe hun.

Fled

Actually, he is gone A LOT. He works a five day a week job, and then he works four nights a week till midnight at another job. I have plenty of time to myself.

RE: Polygraph. I was going to schedule it today, but the counselor said it is RLT's responsibility to do it because it is a demand I am putting on HIM; thus, he must follow through and take care of it.

I don't necessarily agree. I don't think it makes a rat's a$$ difference who does it.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with a lot of folks here, and tell you that seperation is the most hurtful thing you can do to your M.

Your IC is, as most are, full of [email]sh@@.[/email] Most so called family thereapist, are actually full of [email]sh@@.[/email] they have no clue how to deal with infedelity, much less, have a plan to salvage your M.

They concentrate on how they can make you feel better about your own indepedence, and how you can live without your S.

They counsel about you without your S. Frankly, they suck!!!!

I will not agree with others who tell you to seperate from your S, as this will surely lead to the demise of your M.

Time to decide what you want? I don't think it is seperation, or D.I think it is R of your M. Seperation will not promote this prospect, in spite of what others have said.

Stay the course and let God place His hand on your M.

All Blesings,
Jerry

Jerry,

Your post tugs at me to not do what others think I should do.

I want God to heal our marriage, too. But Mr. RLT has to show me that he can really, really change.

After IC, he revealed yet another PA to me. A full blown PA with a woman from work about 15 years ago. I was pregnant with small babies at the time.

Do you know how sick that makes me?

Do you know how sick and disappointed I am that this was just one of many incidents, and I didn't even know.

I trusted him, Jerry.

I can't keep trusting him.

And I have to know that he is serious about wanting this marriage.

It literally tears my heart up to do what I'm about to do, but I have to test him and see how badly he wants this.

I have to.

Well I wrought a lengthy reply to you, but of course, it got lost in cyberspace.
Yes, I do know what it's like to be lied to.

what can you do about it? Seperate? It will not heal yur M to do so, I know others will disagree.

Don't look to do what's right. Look to do what it will take to make you heal! I know others will disagree.

It's all about you RLT, not what others tell you you MUST do.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry RLT is so co-dependent on her WH that she is incapable of making anything like an informed or rational decision about her marriage without his influence.

Heck - she has every right to divorce him if she wants.

The rabbit hole just keeps getting deeper.

Well heck, of course she does BK, but she has never indicted that is what she want's to do.
so why do you bring that horrible thought to this sitch? We are about building and supporting M's,
aren't we?

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, yes she has said that at times. i suggest that you might want to avail yourself of a bit more info in this situation before making any judgements about the very sound advice that has been given here.

and Jerry, while this site might be about building marriages...it is NOT marriage at all costs!

RLT..you have enabled this behavior now for a long time. You are unable to make sound decisions with all this [email]cr@p[/email] going on...that has been evident. Your H has abused you over and over again...AND he is a LONG TERM SERIAL CHEATER.

Being apart right now will give you the chance to decide if saving this M is really what you want to do. I feel that you are most likely continuing to tolerate this madness for fear of change...reading your words, I think you know that you would be better off without this man...at least until he becomes a man. Right now, he is anything but. Right now he is a child that needs to be hooked up to a machine to tell you the truth. He would still be lying today if we had not pressed the polygraph issue.

Please...think very carefully about your next steps.

man, your right medc.

He WOULD be lying today if not for one little word thrown on this forum--Polygraph.

I can't tell you now, how much I detest him. And yet the love for him doesn't ever go away. I know that I sound like a stupid teenager, but geez, I have been with him for forever. He was my first ... and only.

I have three beautiful kids with him.

I am going to at least try this controlled separation in the house. If I find it doesn't work, then I will tell him to leave.

Jerry, i respect you and know that you will take this as it is intended. Reading your words from earlier in this thread, it is apparent to me that you are giving her H a bit too much slack...because by your own words, he has given something that you will never get. Well, bottom line is, her H deserves NO CREDIT for the truths that were forced from him at this time...nor does he deserve any credit for things that will be pulled from him in the future. I think you are viewing this situation wrong because of some things that are raw in your life.
As far as D not being what God wants...you do not know that. God has placed in her path, some very good Christian's that would see that differently than you. I see a person that is being abused over and over again with no real end in sight....and while it might be okay for some to live in a situation where they will never get what they need or deserve from their spouse, I do not believe that God intends for people to be abused like this time and again.

MEDC

i'm still reeling from the past infidelity stuff.

I'm so stupid.

I never, ever saw it.

Amazing how even the hint of a polygraph had him singing like a canary.

Sorry if I might differ from the norm here, but all I think there might be a different route that is available to r this M.

Rest assured MEDC, I have read this entire thread, and I don't feel I have somehow missed the enlightened truth that you have gleaned from this thread.

I simply have a different opinion, and that is going to have to sit with you, whatever way it does.

Once again, we agree to disagree!

All blessings,
Jerry

And for the record, I Make no judgements about anyone or their opinions. In the end, that's all they are: opinions.

RLT...I will wish you luck with that...for I think it is LUCK that you will need. I hope it works out for you, but I do not see that being a sound plan.
IMHO...your H should demonstrate his worthiness and then you act accordingly...
he passes the test
he gets counseling
he takes you on dates
he shows you his changes by his actions

I will be here to support you...but I believe you are taking a dangerous path.

And Jerry, lastly...at onbe point you said "what is the point"...in other words..getting to the truth. That is the ONLY point before recovery can truly begin.

Also amazing how many times the canary stopped singing...swearing that was it...only to have more. According to him, he even had more to spill today after swearing to everyone the truth was all out.

This bird has not yet finished singing....the biggest lies are yet to be told.

Totally agree MEDC

Oh for cripes sake, BK, we all know that. How does that help this sitch?

Having a RIGHT whether it be Biblical or not, has little to do with the decesion to be made or not!

You, like MEDC, feel there is some kind of rightous justice that has to be repaid as a result of all this. IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!

That's the horrible truth that all of ua BS'are going to have to live with!

Do you work outside the home? Just wondering since your husband works so many hours. Can you get by financially without him?

Well who rattled your cage tonight Jerry? that's to totally different replies from you to the same post.

I am very pro-marriage Jerry. I believe any marriage can potentially be saved even this one. DUH.

it's got nothing to do with righteous justice Jerry...it has everything to do with protecting a woman that has been victimized time and again.

And the horrible truth that many BS deal with Jerry is that they have been given the truth and allowed to make their own decisions. This WH even went through a sham vow renewal while betraying his wife yet again. You seem so intent on following your beliefs that you are willing to throw this woman under the bus in order to save her M. Well, let me tell you ...not all marriages are worth saving. Not every WS will be remorseful and do the things they should do to make a marriage whole again. I am a lot more concerned with the individual right now than the union. IMHO, the union only exists because of lies and deceit....and it is up to the WH in this case to make things right.

Jerry, I know you are a kind and generous soul. I truly am perplexed at your take on this and again will express that I feel your negative feelings about what you have had to swallow to remain in your M are coming into play here. If that is the case, I am sorry for the continued pain that you are going through.

MEDC

Jerry, clearly, you have no clue what I feel.

In fact, I'll just leave it a "you have no clue"

Well frankly beliver,
I don;t understand yor Q?

I am the H who works outside of the home. How is your Q even relevant?

All Blessings,
Jerry

Believer is talking to RLT Jerry. Case Closed.

Hi RLT,
.
I've been trying to stay away from these boards today because I have so much work to catch up on and I am emotionally drained myself over my own sitch. This thread hit so close to home for me as you know and I relived it all again yesterday with you. I'm glad I did though. I quit posting after the first few days when I was in the same situation so I'm getting a chance to hear what everyone else thinks. I just looked at my calendar. It's been 6 wks since my H's last disclosure and the polygraph was the next day.

I said all of that because I just wanted to give you an idea of where I'm at now, 6 wks later.

My story is very much like yours in the way the whole poly thread/disclosures took place. I asked for one, H got defensive, then purged his lies.

On the day of the first purging session, I asked him to leave. For me, I had to. You do whatever you think you need. I had to because I couldn't think straight with him around me. I did not have one nice word to say to him and I honestly wanted to hurt him. I could tell that I was just too angry to have him anywhere near me. However, I still wanted to be able to communicate with him so I could ask the questions I wanted to when they came to me. I also wanted him to continue with complete transparency in case I did want to pursue recovery with him. He stayed in constant communication with me via e-mail and phone and was completely transparent. That was necessary for me to entertain the possibility of reconciliation. And he wanted to do it for me.

He didn't want to move out but he did because it was what I needed. I am grateful to him for that. Any less and he'd be history today.

In hindsight, I wished I would have had him stay gone a little longer than I did. He was only gone for a week. I let him come back after the poly was done. I was so relieved over the results and felt like I had a good foundation of truth to start on.

I'm not saying that I am not glad that my H is back now, I'm just saying I wished I would have taken more time for myself to think even more.

The disclosures that you just got are excruciating and as bad as you want your marriage, you honestly don't know if that will be possible for you, no matter what your H does and that has been the most upsetting thing for me to realize. And I know, that if my H had spilled all of this out in the beginning at d-day, it would have been bad, but not this bad.

There will be so many new revelations that will hit you in the weeks and months to come. I know I get new ones all of the time. One of the worst ones was how selfishly cruel it was to stab me over and over again the way he did. He watched and let me bleed slowly. How do you reconcile that? Much less the actual new betrayals. I am trying to have compassion for him but it's not easy.

I realized my H was sleeping with other women while we were dating up until we got married as part of his disclosures. So now I feel like our whole marriage is a lie and I don't know why he married me. It's take time to sort through all of that. Still not there. And all of this stuff, it just brings so many more questions that you won't even think to ask yourself at this point. Not enough has sunk in yet.

I don't want to sound so negative but I want to share with you because I am guessing that you may be feeling a lot of the same things. I do have some hope though. My H is doing quite a bit and it may be possible we make it but I have no guarantees. I don't trust his love for me yet. He has thrown me under the bus for 16 yrs and has been a FWS for maybe 6 wks? I do believe though that if I see consistency over time and some other things that I can still have that marriage I thought we were going to have before all of this started. I haven't thrown in the towel yet. There may be hope.

It is easier for your H to meet your needs if he's living there but I'm sure you don't even know if you want him to at this point. Where I am at right now as far as needs go is that my H is trying to meet most of mine but I don't have it in me to reciprocate that much. That's why it was way easier when he wasn't here too. I don't want him to expect anything from me, other than being respectful and cordial because I just don't have anything to offer him right now. He killed whatever love I had for him almost when the chit hit the fan for us a little while ago.

Also, this time away from him will give you a chance to breathe. Everytime you see him you'll be triggered. Space is good for now and you can do a controlled separation a little later if that's what you both want. Even when he comes back it's going to be very difficult. I can see some loving detachment in your future. It's what you're going to need to deal with all of this.

At this point, I am still committed to recovery because my H has shown a lot of changes, but I am not yet willing to commit to my marriage. Before I can get to that point, I would have to feel like I would marry him all over again and considering our situation starting from the beginning of time, I don't feel like I even know him, and I certainly don't like him very much at times. He is a lot different now but there hasn't been enough time or consistency to convince me of anything yet.

And I hope you don't feel guilty for one minute about your H having to make other arrangements, even if it's his car. Do not shelter him from the consequences of his actions. No one, and I mean no one will blame you for kicking him out.

RLT, with him gone you will find strength that you didn't know you had. And trust me, it'll look good on you.

Get some confidence in yourself first and then worry about whether or not you have any in him.

{{{{{{RLT}}}}}}}

Great Post Mopey.

wonderfully said Mopey.

OK.MEDC and BK,
Where does it end???????

We can perpetuatate this theory from now until the cows come home. But where so we draw a line
and say this is the end?

How is one supossed to heal, if they are never given a chance to do so?

JMHO

All Blessings.,
jerry

That is exactly what my plan would facilitate...RLT being able to heal...and IF she wants her marriage to recover at that time...so be it.

Thanks Medc and BK. I hope it helps.

OK, I understand that my O doesn't count her on this forum.


With that said, It's time for me me to move on.

Good luck and all blessings to all of you,
Jerry

RLT:

I don't have any advice for you, but I wanted to let you know that I am very sorry to read what you have gone through over the last several days.

You are in my thoughts and prayers. I will pray that God will ease your confusion and grant you the wisdom to make the right choices for your future.

LoBoy

thank you LoBoy. I have read your threads as well. I know things aren't going well for you

I will pray for you and your family also.

Jerry,

Thank you for your input. I really DO appreciate it. You sound like a man with a good and kind heart.

How are you doing RLT? You are rarely far from my thoughts these last few days.

I have to say, Mopey is dead on. I know how hard it is to hear that. Im not sure you really want your H to leave at all, even though he has hurt you beyond belief and you are very confused.

However, You need some perspective. A controlled seperation is an awful idea in my opinion. Your H is *still* there. Doing this would only add stress to you which you really dont need more of. Mr RLT needs to give you some space to figure out what you want to do. This is about YOU. If Mr RLT needs to sleep on a park bench, so be it. It is the consequences of his actions. By leaving he is protecting you from further harm at this stage. It is the most valiant thing he could do.

My concern is that you are tempted to let Mr RLT off the hook too easily which comes at GREAT cost to you personally. Perhaps Im misjudging the situation and speaking from my own experiences but I sense some of that in you. You sound like a fixer. Its a dynamic I know all too well.

You had said that you are stupid for not seeing everything. Do NOT beat up on yourself because some else has mistreated you. You are NOT stupid. You are married to a masterful liar. He alone owns that.

Calling the Harley radio show is a superb idea. Can you look into it?

I did the controlled separation too - but I knew my husband was reprentent when he was prepared to sleep in his car and shower at the gym if I had asked.

I literally lived upstairs - he lived downstairs - partly unfinished basement, but there was heat and water. I handled my job by staying with my employer and his wife - they had an extra room, I lived 75 miles away from the job so they had already offered, and my young son was in day care near my job, so there was even more separation; I went 4 months with a separation this way the two months before that were totally dark plan b type separation where my husband had no idea where we were staying - and thankfully - things had blown up to the point where he wasn't pushing visitation. But he wasn't remorseful until we were two months into a six month separation. I only moved back under the same roof as him once I started seeing some signs of softening toward remorse, regret, repentance and restitution.

Controlled separation will only work if your husband stops the psycho war on you. "Telling" you how sorry he is, while he has his friend do the dirty work is NOT going to work.

I posted on your husband's thread that he needs to have NC with this friend for the rest of his life if he recovers his marriage - because if you have any self-worth left, you won't tolerate contact or influence coming from this yayhoo whozit.

RLT,

I don't have any advice to offer, just moral support I guess. But you sure have been on my mind the last couple of days.

I feel incredibly sad at your current situation and frankly would like to slap the living Sh1t out of Mr. RLT.

I am close to 100% certain that after everything Skirmisher and I have been thru, I would at the very least ask him to move out for an indeterminate period of time. But that is me.

I find myself wishing that Stillwed were still posting here. As I recall her FWH had over 6 affairs over the course of their marriage and they were fully recovered.

Mr. RLT is the one who needs to be taking the lead here as his first demonstration of his dedication to recovering the marriage. I am just not sure that he is even close to understanding that. Sorry.

Please take care of you and remember that you have lots of folks here who care a great deal about you.

Who

RLT,

You have been getting two differing opinions though many more have been suggesting that you separate over staying together as you begin working through all of this.

FWIW, I actually agree with Jerry on this...

That said, it is you who has to make the decision and you that has to live with that decision. I know that isn't a lot of help in this case, but only you can answer the question as to what YOU want.

It is possible to recover from affairs whether there was a 2 week intense emotional EA, a 10 year LT PA or a hundred ONS spread over twenty five years. The recovery process is the same and that is to build a better marriage less prone to such things for the future.

But you have to decide at this point whether the marriage is worth saving and putting more work into or if it should be abolished. Only you can decide if the level of pain and hurt you have suffered is too much.

If Mr RLT does everything exactly right from this day forward, is it worth the effort to YOU?

If he gets it 95% right is it worth it? What about 85%? What are you willing to accept from a marriage to him from this day forward keeping in mind that it is a process not just a switch that can be thrown to make it all right?

JMO.

I'm praying for you. (Both of you)

Mark

Good morning all,

It is nice to wake up in the morning and know I have friends out there who have been worrying about me and praying for me.

Nights are tough now. As I go to sleep in the big, lonely bed, I am hauntingly reminded of those days and weeks that he was in Florida with his OW. The pain was EXCRUCIATING, to know that as I laid there alone, he was probably, at that moment, screwing her. It was all I could think every night, the same sick images every time I closed my eyes.

Now, it's the same thing. Only there are several women. How many, I don't know. I was tryng to do a count in my head. If I count the ones before we were married, but in a serious relationship, something like 7?

The one he told me about yesterday, about the woman from where he used to work, was making me ill last night. He would go to her apt. and they would screw. And, I come to find out, I used to watch her daughter now and then. I don't remember that. I don't remember this OW. But I do know that THIS ONE, I WAS with two small children, and either pregnant, or trying to get pregnant. I thought life was so good back then. Now even those memories are tainted.

Absolutely NOTHING has been authentic in this relationship. It's all been a sham, and he has made it that way.

In a way, a VERY SICK way, I think to myself, well maybe somehow I should feel better that he's had several affairs. Because then it means that he couldn't have loved OW so much as he thought. And for sure, he would not have stopped his serial cheating. It's in the bag, he woulda cheated on her $orry [censored], to.


This would be called venting, right?

Back to the business at hand:

Mark, it is confusing getting these differing opinions because I do find value in all of them. I feel like now is the time to do the RIGHT thing because I have spent so many years doing the WRONG thing.

I am still in shock mode.

So really, I am just going to sit here until it wears off. Then I think I will decide exactly how to handle this.

rlt,

Are you close to your mom, or any aunts? I am just wondering what kind of motherly support you have, or sisterly?

I stopped reading for a while but just got caught up...

It's too bad you couldn't go visit your mother and dad for a little while.

Hope you are eating right and exercising. All this stress and lack of sleep are going to wreck havoc on your body, and I found after I went through some bad times like this that exercise was the only thing that gave me any relief.

Put on the head phones, jack it all the way up and get on the treadmill and jus pound the he*ll out of it helped.

weaver,

my mom's in town. My dad is in Florida.

I talk to my mom on the phone a lot.

No I am not eating or exercising. I am presently on a diet of coffee and cigarettes. The cigarettes I started on 2 years ago with the start of all this crap. I managed to quit for this past month with the aid of Chantex. However, all of this stuff came about and I went back to them. Not good, as I was just starting to feel the affects on NOT smoking. I'm asthmatic, so they really do reek havoc on my body.

I don't have a treadmill. The most I could do is take the dog and walk around the block a few times.

Great advice Weaver!! Exercise does wonders for the soul.

rlt

Have you been to see your Dr about helping you deal with this stress? My IC recommended that I get an RX for meds to help me sleep at first so that I could stay reasonably healthy. There's good new meds out there that aren't habit forming.

Weaver has good advice too-eating and exercising to help with the stress on your body. You have a lot of "truth" to process about your WH and your M.

Take your time with it all. You are bathed in prayer.

For you this morning-

"I remember my affliction and my wandering, the bitterness and gall. I well remember them, and my soul is downcast within me. Yet this I call to mind and therefore I have hope: Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed, for His compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to my myself, "The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for Him."
Lam.3:19-24

Well these were my thoughts, and my motivation -

I may have been with the biggest serial cheater, con artist of all time, and he may have taken 6 years of my happiness, all of my money, a loved piece of island waterfront property, my dignity and my sanity...

but by golly if I was going to be alone, jaded and crazy...I was going to be a d*mned good-looking, crazy old maid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Way to go weaver!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

rlt,

You have difficult decisions to make.

Take your time.

You know your circumstances and history better than anyone else.

Make your choices with YOUR best advantage at heart!

Time to think of YOU!

Just got off the phone with OW'H's husband to tell him about the extended affair circumstances.

The poor guy didn't have a clue.

Boy, is $****** going to hit the fan at the "blank" house tonight!

Also discovered Mr. RLT told her I had cheated on him, to make him feel better I guess.

I know. They all do it.

I asked him at LEAST 50 times what he'd told her about me. He said, "Nothing bad. How could I?"

Another stinking lie. And I knew it was, the whole time.

Nothing like character assassination, ha?

RLT,
I am sorry if my thoughts have somehow intruded on your thread. If that's true, I deeply apologize.
Your world of hurt right now is paramount to anything else said here on this thread. You have my very sincere condolences for what you are going through, once again.

In a humble attempt to explain myself, I will continue to think that a separation between you and Mr. RLT is a very bad idea. To me it is one more wrong step if R is what you truly desire for your M. Communication after the revelation is extremely important. Yes, your WH needs to explain himself to you and to God, for how he could have made such devastating choices. Your initial communication may take place as total rants and hurtful responses to his brainfart. That's OK, because that is just as needed, as are the softer times, when you begin to discuss how to right the ship. Separation, will leave that option, and many others, out of the question.

I have been called clueless, and that's OK because I have told myself that a cazillion times.
I have actually given serious consideration to changing my user name to Clueless, that way if a particular poster takes offence at my response, they can simply look at my user name and know that I am clueless anyhow
What do think? Good Idea?

I love this forum because the good folks here have no problem hitting you over the head with a 2x4, or if in Texas, the overkill 4x4.

Please, RLT, you are at Dday all over again. Look around you; the foundation of your M was trust. A nuclear explosion has blown that foundation apart. Thusly, the rest of the house came down like a house of cards. Now you sit on your butt, looking around at the devastation and are in shock. Rightfully so, but look who's sitting next to you. The very one who caused this calamity in the first place.

So now you have options, rebuild with him or without him. I would be a strong advocate of doing it with him, rather than alone. Of course that option is yours: not mine or IC or any one else here on this forum. The choice is yours and yours alone.

Right now, all I can wish and pray for you is peace… His peace….. Talk to HIM.

All Blessings,
Jerry

welcome back clueless! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shddup wiseguy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BTW and OT, I was Miltary Police during Vietnam, and did a brief stint at CID(Criminal investigation).

I'm older now, but I once had testosterone like you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All Blessings,
Jerry

edit: thanks God thats over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jerry,

Did you read my post on the Shinethrough Thread?

I appreciate very much what you say. And you do bring a softness to my heart when I read your posts. Kind of calms my raging anger right now. You sound like a MOST forgiving man.

PLEASE continue to post me. I need to hear your opinions, too.

No, you have NOT intruded on my thread.

You are WELCOME.

I'm no spring chicken jerry... I am 44 but feel like I am 25....I keep waiting or the inevitable decline!

Glad to have you back my friend.

Thank You RLT,
What you said means the world to me.

If I may, you have asked your H for the truth, right? I had a very good C(and I went through many), explain to me that my WW would never be truthful to me unless and until I could demonstrate that it was SAFE to do so.

So I ask you, have you made Mr RLT feel it is safe to tell you the real truth? If you have not, you will simply reinforce his notion that telling you the truth is harmfull to his well being, and the well being of your M. KWIM?

If you ask for the truth, you had better be in a position to hear that truth, regardless of how it devastates you.Extremely unfair, I agree, but nonetheless it is what you asked for, was it not?

So the ultimate question becomes, what will you do with your truth? how about you take three steps back, breathe, relax and talk to God about what He would have you do. HE has a plan that Dr. H has not even envisioned yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Hang on RLT, as badly as you hurt, the BEST, is yet to come for those who have faith.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Glad to have you back my friend,

thanks MEDC, it's nice to have people who accept you, IN SPITE OF ALL YOUR FAULTS.

I hope BK can do the same.

What do think about Clueless, I'm beginning to really like it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

All blesings,
Jerry

Nah...make everybody figure you out for themselves...I had too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

See, Jerry, that last line about the best yet to come is so uplifting for me.

Thank you.

As for making him feel safe when truth digging--ah, well probably not. At least not last Sunday when he let out the BIG LIE and I went into a screaming rage and started to HIT him. I am NOT a violent person, Jerry. I am a little pipsqueak, don't even hit 5 feet on the tape measure. But the rage, I can't begin to tell you.

I am sorry for that, and I did apologize for it.

Yesterday, when he proceeded to tell me about yet MORE affairs, man I was RAGING again. It was ALL I could do to keep my fists in my lap.

But I did.

I remained calm. I didn't hit. I didn't yell. I didn't stomp out of the car. I just sat ... and listened.

It is hard. It's hard because, jeez, how cruel can people be to do this stuff. It is evil at its core. And it's shocking to learn that all the time you were married to it, and didn't even know.

But I will go to God with it. I will take it to Him and ask him to guide me.

MEDC,

44? I'm 46.

Hey, I thought we WERE still spring chickens, dude!!!

Jeez Jerry,

What are you like 85?....Just Kidding <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> BTW, I am an MP Officer.

Who

Well said, Jerry.

JMHO.

Mark

RLT,



And that is for me just about the hardest thing to do. I think it is why Skirmisher chose to keep so much from me. I don't know how I would have reacted on D-day if he would have just told me everything, I might have just gone ahead and divorced.

So, if I can't even now say what I would have done, well as much as I hate to say it....it was as much my fault as his that he didn't want to tell.

It is hard though to learn that the person who you have been married to has really never been faithful to you. Skirmisher "dabbled" in infidelity from before we were married and finally ended up in a full blown affair.

Like you, I trusted him completely, which made it easy for him to lead a secret life. I honestly don't think he ever felt a bit guilty for any of his activities up until his PA in 2003.

Fortunately, I believe he finally sees the damage done and is working hard to be open and honest now.

Who

rlt, I was not going to post this at this time, but I feel I must.

Jerry (I value your opinion but do not agree, not at this time anyway)

How do we judge future behavior rlt? From past behavior. Until such a time that your WH has demonstrated for a good long time, that he is capable of being faithful and honorable, do not soften you heart. He has proven from the time you met him that he is a serial cheater and a liar.

He can change rlt, but it is going to have to be an entire change in character and his entire value system.

Usually it takes great pain and loss to effect a change of this magnitude for a person.

You are not in recovery, nor should you be. You should be in a stage where you are watching and distancing yourself from him until you have every reason to believe that he will not repeat his past behavior. Basically until his past behavior has changed. And this takes time, as Kayla and Mobey and others have said.

Even Pep said, and her husband had one affair, that she told him she would evaluate in six months and see if she wanted to continue in the marriage, and then after that another six months.

I would demand and yes demand a post-nuptial agreement, along with the lie detector test, along with counseling with Steve Harley....before I even considered softening my heart.

You love him rlt, you are hurting, but be smart okay? Do it the smart way. He can change, but you have to change too. You have to toughen up a little bit, until he demonstrates change through actions, and not through words. His words are meaningless and they are toxic at this point. I haven't read his thread because until he proves otherwise (for me at least six months of transparent honesty, remorse, repentence) he is a proven liar.

I'm so sorry to say this, but you can have a good marriage with him again, but he has got to change, and you are going to have to accept NOTHING LESS.

Please call Steve Harley and talk with him as soon as you can. Even if only one time and $185 will not be wasted.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, I don't want to hurt you.

Very sound advice.

RLT, I went to a marriage builder seminar once (not MB unfortunately) but the host and hostess' story stuck with me through the years. HE was the serial cheater and serial liar. She was devastated as you are. After living separate for two years, he finally came to her and asked for forgiveness.

She made it a condition that they sit down and talk. He had ONE final opportunity to come clean with her and to spill the beans... all of them. It took them two days to get through it all. But it wasn't until he came completely clean, no holds barred, and told it all, that they could begin their healing. She told us that it was the most painful experience of her life and it took her a very long, long time to finally forgive and to rebuild any trust. SHE decided to honor her vows, even when HE had stomped all over them and she had every right, even in God's eyes, to send him packing. She credits God with her strength. God can bring you peace and calm in the midst of this storm. You are His child and he cares about you and your breaking heart.

Her husband didn't stop with the telling though. HE was willing and did everything he could to make it right. I imagine had she thought of a polygraph, he would have done that too. HE did the work. They turned their marriage over to God and eventually they healed. Now they are giving seminars together to help others heal.

My point is whether you separate or not (which I agree with Clueless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> that you shouldn't) if you want this marriage--the lies have to stop now. Whatever you need to prove his truthfulness, he needs to cooperate 110%.

If he's really a true man of God or wants to be now, he'll do whatever you ask to make it right. No more lies. The truth must be told... even if it's painful.

His friend... ugh... he's no friend to your marriage.

thanks, princessmeggy, I hope he reads this one.

He has told me before how he has turned his life over to God, but I don't know how he does this with all these lies still stuck under his hat. What does he think, God will just give a wink at him and let it go?

I am grilling him via email right now. I'm sure he is not liking it. But I agree with everyone else here, that only the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is going to set him free, and it is the ONLY possible way that we can even think of a recovered marriage.

And yes, I told him straight up, his friend is NO friend to our marriage. The guy meant well, I think. But he just has things all screwed up.

weaver,

I will carefully consider what you said to me.

thanks.

ok THAT'S IT
This Clueless person is about to change their user name from Shinethrough to Clueless.

I think it fits me actually. Much better than shinethrough, as I don't seem to be very sucessful at that lately.

What do you guys think? Is is OK?

All Blessings,
Jerry

Jerry,

No, don't change it. You do Shinethrough.

And you are NOT Clueless.

I wonder what would happen if you sat back and watched him for a while. Quit grilling, quit begging, quit forcing the truth out of him, then sit back and see what HE does.

It might give you an answer pretty fast about whether he's willing to do the work it takes to fix things. I tseems like he ought to be the one doing all the heavy lifting right now, and him making you dig details out of him is just more evidence that's not in his favor.

It seems like that's kind of the point of the in-house separation that you're doing .... giving you a chance to sit back and evaluate and decide if you're willing to stay with him based on what he's willing to do to fix the mess he made.

He knows what the paramaters are and the requirements .... isn't it time for him to show whether he's going to be able to live up to them without making you badger him?

-AmI.

AmI,

I think you are sooo right.

I grilling right now just to be able to help with my line of questioning in the polygraph.

After that, I'll quit with the grilling. But you know, it would be nice if he came to me every so often, WITHOUT the grilling, and just voluntarily give me information, if say, he remembers something. It would be nice if HE would come to me with something.

I am going to sit back here, soon. I will see what he does with his time alone, if he follows through with accountability meetings, posting here, etc.

I know I shouldn't, but in a way I feel sorry for him. In the end, though, if he can manage to pull his head out of his butt and keep it out, he'll be the better man for it.

Jerry - I only took exception to you telling me what I was thinking. Glad you're back. You are of course entitled to your opinion.

Religion can be as superficial as anything else in his life. It can be shoved in a seperate room along with other feelings.

Only his consistant action over time will prove whether he's trustworthy. I don't expect my wife to trust me at this point. I believe she will in the future though.

I'm going to give you a lovely gift wrapped clue...ok..ready..brace yourself.

The digging and begging and grilling...is NOT about information.

The hint is...it's about getting your needs met.

It's about validation.

Are you with me so far or shall we discuss it further?

There was a reason why I suggested that you not have interactions sans third party.

rlt,

I sent you an e-mail. My prayers are w/you.

BK. lest there be any doubt, You< I and MEDC, are on the same page.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Standing, can you resend email? I haven't got it.

Noodle, I know it's really not about information--it's about wanting to know what my life has really been all about. It's about slowly coming to the realization that my husband isn't even close to the person I thought he was. It's about letting go of the illusions.

RLT,
I have been reading your story and there are a few things that struck me. Honestly the first thing that came to me was your husband is bipolar. That may be way off base but knowing several bipolar people it just reminded me of them. There is a pattern here and there has to be something to it. It ISN'T you, he has serious issues he needs to deal with. Then the other thing that sticks out is that most (maybe all?) affairs happened while you were pregnant. Something about you being pregnant triggered something in him. Again, HIS issues. Is he seeing his own concelor to deal with his issues? If not, this will happen again.

I don't see bipolar with her H at all.

Morning Crap Chronicle from the RLT House.

We had a converstation this morning. We are both VERY distraught. This controlled separation is going to be difficult.

I am having a hard time processing all of the information on past affairs. It almost seems surreal to me.

During our conversation he told me that he had an appt. with a lawyer this morning. He says, among other things, he feared me using his secret cell phone account information (which he is unable to obtain, anyway) and polygraph results against him in divorce court. I told him we live in a no fault state, and that the courts could give a rat's a$$ about his adultery.

But the whole thing just sort of blew my mind. He's the one who put us in the horrible financial position. Now HE is posturing himself? As it stands, in this state, everything is divided straight down the middle, which means I would get half of his "cheating" bills. That's about as unfair as you can get.

It just blew my mind that he got the lawyer appt. He did say he would cancel it.

Section 2

He got upset with me for "bringing those people back into our lives." He was referring to my phone call yesterday to OW's H. He was not at all happy about it. I told Mr. RLT that the poor guy had a right to know, and as it turns out, he didn't know. I don't think I did anything wrong, and I don't know why he is upset about it. I told him there is a likelihood that OW may try and contact him now. I gave him explicit instructions on how to handle it. But Mr. RLT is peeved about it, and I'm peeved that he's peeved.

I thought the guy had a right to know.

First of all ---> (((rlt)))

I'm so sorry that you're going thru this. I know the pain and confusion is beyond description right now. It will get better, tho...you WILL recover and be whole again, regardless of how your M ends up.

With that said, it's my opinion that you should carefully re-visit Weaver's last post to you. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I pray you have His peace in your life at this time when you most need it.

Lori

doesn't sound like he is interested in protecting YOU....only himself.

if your H does not do a 180 degree turn today...I would divorce his butt very quickly.

Frankly, he is acting like a real dirt bag at this point. HE has and appointment with a lawyer????? HIM??? Are you friggin kidding me?

He is STILL only concerned with himself. His affairs were for himself, lying ALL the years of your marriage were for himself, spending your retirement money and going into debt to fund his affair were for himelf. The lies were never about protecting you, they were only to protect HIM.

The very IDEA that he would consider spending money for a lawyer is extremely disturbing. How could he do this and say that he cares about what is best for you??? No, he is proecting HIMSELF from the consequences of his own horrid behavior.

I understand the reasoning behind some that say you can't work on the marriage if you are not together so don't kick him out. However, how can this inhouse seperation ever work? You can't process all this pain and start making decicions if there is constant contact and new insults hurling your way. Also, how do the kids handle all of this going on in the house? It seems to me that seperation would protect the kids from continuous stress.

As someone else pointed out days ago, he had NO PROBLEM leaving when HE wanted to.

I really feel for you. This is a disaster. I will keep you in my thoughts. As much as I hate to see divorce, this guy is still light years from even having you or your needs on his radar. It is ALL ABOUT HIM.

And NO, he is NOT bipolar. He is simply a selfish man.

the lawyer appt. was for a free consultation.

Yes, I was insulted by this.

Mr. RLT...you have a lot of f-in nerve. You fake being interested in helping your wife...yet you make an appointment to protect your assets. What the f is wrong with you?
You should have made the polygraph appointment...but you won't do that because you are a fraud and a liar.
If you are at all interested in recovery...then schedule the polygraph...tell her everything...sign a post nuptial agreement that gives her everything in the event of a failed polygraph or another infidelity...and then take the test.
Anything less than all of that and you are nothing more than a fraud taking advantage of your BW yet again.
Sir...you should count your blessings that is not my sister or friend you are doing this to...

It's clear that this was just another attempt to bully you into backing off and shutting up.

He's used to being able to push your buttons and get the reaction he wants from you - confusion, denial, despair, and retreat.

But hey - you moved your buttons and are not reacting the same way anymore.

So he had to ramp it up and do something nastier in hopes of bullying you back into submission again.

That's why he told you he called a lawyer.

You can fully expect this sort of thing to happen again and again and again. Please be ready for it.
Mulan

His actions are speaking prety clearly.
He has time to schedule an appointment with a lawyer, but not the polygraph. He is worried about protecting his own interests in case of a D more than he's worried about you having what you need to heal from his string of betrayals.

He writes a lot of pretty stuff here, and maybe he's saying the same things to you. But his actions (or lack thereof) speak much louder. You seem to be so caught up in fixing and fighting and doing what you think you have to do, though, that you aren't sitting back and watching.

Arguing with him about the lawyer, nailing him with quesitons, everything else that YOU are doing takes away a chance for you to see what HE will do on his own in order to fix this. He's showing you what he will do -- he will go out and protect his own interests and he will continue to drip out secrets until he thinks he's given you just enough so you won't ask any more -- then he'll keep the rest. You don't seem to be seeing that, though. You seem to want to fight him to MAKE him do better, rather than watching what he will do in order to win you back.

Maybe he doesn't deserve you back. Maybe he's not willing to do what it takes to get you back. Don't you want better than having to keep badgering and fighting just to get him to meet the barest of minimums?


Maybe it's time for you to make your own lawyer appointment and find out what your alternatives are. Even in no-fault states, you can show cause for unequitable distribuitons of debt and assets. I'm in the same state as you, and when we were headed towards D, my lawyer helped me gather enough paperwork to be able to assign a little over 3/4 of our debt to my H, and most of the assets to me. A lawyer can help you build a good case. And you can show what bills were household bills and incurred for the good of the family, and which bills were not without the results of a polygraph or secret cell phone records.

-AmI.

AmI,

I have a lawyer. I got the lawyer while he was in Florida with OW.

That was his reasoning--"you have a lawyer, I thought I needed one, too."

But, see, AmI--I can sit back and watch, but I would have had not idea that he was going to see a lawyer had he not told me.

He is soooooo sneaky.

He could be doing other stuff (?) and I wouldn't even know about it.

Please...you have a lawyer I thought I need one too. This guy is really a piece of work.

I honestly do not mean to insult you RLT, nor add to your pain....but how many more years of his lying and entitlement can you live like this? I know you love him and I know you want your marriage to work. But he doesn't have it in him to BE married. He hasn't been able to do the very basics: honesty, fidelity.

I was honestly hoping that this was a man that really turned a corner when he recommitted to the marriage. His gushy language put up a red flag for me though...said Con man. I TRULEY had hoped that he given up his prior life and was just too weak to tell you everything out of fear.

BUT, his behavior SINCE last week shows that he is still the same old person. No lie detector yet, more lies coming out, saying he doesn't have much time to post??? Getting a "friend" to call and cause MORE pain? Buddy, ANYONE interested in saving this and easing the pain that he caused would spend ALL THE TIME NECESSARY. He certainly found the time to call a lawyer to protect HIM!

I am a patient women and have been told by many that I am a bit of an enbabler by always wanting to see hope but this would do it for me.

I am SO sorry that he has and is doing all of this to you. You deserve so much more. ((hugs))

OMG. I'm flabergasted.

If it were me, this would be the straw that finally broke the camel's back. No more. Why in the WORLD wouldn't he tell you that he was even considering talking to an attorney? His rationale for doing so-- just plain old stinky BS. More deceit. More lies. More destruction.

These are not the acts of a repentant, remorseful man.

That's kind of my point .... it's his job to make sure you DO know about things now. His job to account for his time, prove that he's where he says he is, that you dont have anything to worry about.

Unless you want to build a dynamic of you always having to badger and check up and wonder if he's really telling you the truth. He's got to be the one doing the work. He should be proving himself to you. And so far, the proof he's giving you is not really supporting what you want, until you fight with him to MAKE him do what you want. Seems like that's going to get pretty exhausting pretty soon.

-AmI.

RLT, he's using the threat of a lawyer to control you.

My husband used to do me the same way, until I told him to "have at it". I told him that the next time he brought up divorce or a lawyer to me, he'd better be serious, cuz that is exactly what he'll get.

Yes, same here. Finally went over and read it.

rlt, there is no question in my mind that he will cheat again, the only question is how will you handle it? What will be in place to protect you and the interests of your children when it happens again. And it will.

It is your choice to stay with a serial cheater, I will not judge you for that, but -

Have your atty draw up a post nuptial that says if he cheats again, he walks and he walks away with nothing, except all his debt.

He will not sign a post nuptial agreement, I guarantee it. I wouldn't even care about the lie detector test anymore, I would be in self-protect mode. You going to have him do a lie detector test every year? He has already shown he is not going to anyway.

My worry, rlt is that the next time he cheats and he will, and the OW has money, or makes him feel like a young stud, or ...well just fill in the blank, he will leave you high and dry.

Please prepare for this. These are the changes YOU need to make. I think you are a SAHM, right? I strongly encourage you to get a job outside of the home now.

You cannot be at his mercy any longer.

You have to toughen up, and I don't mean with the grilling or the not backing down on the questions, or any of those things, I mean by protecting yourself and your interests, and excepting that he is a serial cheater.

How will you handle it the next time?

I am not talking divorce here (although because of what I have been through, and because having my DD in a happy home with a healthy, happy mother means EVERYTHING to me I would divorce him), I am talking protection.

He says, "If you thought that your spouse was threatening you with divorce, wouldn't you get yourself a lawyer?"

Long conversation on the phone with him, and he is defending this action.

He says he also called a counselor to get help for himself, and doesn't that count for anything?"

He does not understand why his calling a lawyer was an insult to me.

He says he does not like living his life by a message board, that that is all we ever talk about.

I am trying to just give the facts here, to get objective opinions.

This man is a train wreck. His own well-being is his primary concern. Sh1t, that is what got him into this in the first place and he STILL DOESN"T GET IT.

Wake the [censored] up Mr. RLT, either you want to stay married to RLT or not? If you do, get some help because you really just don't have a clue here. This isn't about YOU, and honestly, it isn't even about your marriage right now. IT IS ABOUT RLT.

You are the one who caused this mess and you need to act now to start fixing it, right now.

Stop worrying about your own sorry a$$ and get busy, or tell RLT that you aren't up to the challenges and hard work ahead to prove that you are still worth or her love. If you're not then pack your bags and leave her the h3ll alone so that she can start to heal.

Who

You are a party to your own abuse at this point. Stop having conversations with this jacka$$.



In fact, NO, it doesn't. He will just con the therapist just has he has tried to con everyone else.



Yes, he does...he knows..he just doesn't care.



Of course not...abusers hate when their victims have support systems in place. They try and isolate and make the abused feel as though they are crazy or that they deserve the abuse heaped on them.



As well you should.

And the facts are that your WH is a jerk and will most likely never change. YOU need to take control of your life and leave this garbage in the dust. He is abusing you on a daily basis and has been doing so year after year.

Of course he doessn't like that you spoke with OWH, that was exposure. He doesn't like being caught.

Of course, he doesn't like the message board. We are more objective and see right past all his [email]cr@p[/email], his lies and his horrible behavior this week. We aren't buying this, he can't gas light us. Believe me, if we were telling you to give him another chance, he'd be all about how great this board is.

Of course, he defends himself about the lawyer appointment. He can ONLY see this from HIS point of view.

And that RLT, is the point some of us are trying to make. His thinking is still completely, absolutely all about HIM...his needs, his protection. When this should only be about the devestation he has brought on you.

He is the one that nuked your family and he continues to defend and protect only himself.

I really am so deeply sorry for you RLT.

What ever happened to the polygraph?

RLT,

Just trying to be a more removed observer here...

Anger, resentment, distrust, mistrust and pain over things past, even recent past...All are justified and all are your right and fully acknowledged and understandable right now.

It's OK to be all of those things.

But the question for both of you is are both of you willing to work together from this point to try to fix it?

MR RLT,

Yep; it's your fault your marriage has reached this point. It's pretty much all your doing. You are going to have to fight like h377 to save your marriage. You will probably have to fight harder than RLT did when she first committed to saving the marriage.

The difficulty you now have is that history is against you at this point. She first began to fight to save your marriage because of the history you had together, but she has since found out that what she always believed to be true was all a lie. That was your doing, I'm afraid and I have no idea how you will ever be able to restore that. The resentment for what has happened is much deeper than you could have imagined in your worst nightmares.

But, and this is where I think the only chance for your marriage lies, the past cannot be changed and it will be what happens next that will determine if you are still married a couple of years from now. All you, Mr RLT can do is try to do anything and everything to make it up to her.

And RLT, all you can do is let him try.

This will NOT be better tomorrow or this time next week or maybe even a year from now unless MOVEMENT is replaced by ACTION.

Talking won't do it.

Discussions won't do it.

Rehashing what happened won't do it.

RLT, DO you see ANY way you are ever going to forgive him for what has transpired? If not, then maybe a separation is in order until your emotions are played out. Not to say that you can't remain angry and even resentful, but the raw pain of it all right now is clouding your reason.

And Mr RLT, you need a plan and need it fast. Your marriage is bleeding to death and it is because of a wound you inflicted and subsequent revelation of previous wounds that went undiscovered and therefore unresolved for years. Unless you can stop the bleeding, the marriage is doomed.

RLT, your feelings have been validated repeatedly by others on this forum. You are hurt, confused and mad as h377!

But Let's look for a solution to the marriage.

The other option is to abolish the marriage and move on without each other.

Somebody has to take the lead one way or the other. He said/she said will not do anything good for anyone at this point.

A pastor, MC, a trusted friend of the marriage, someone has to mediate this. Not at a distance, but face to face with everyone staring at the same 4 walls.

This is beginning to resemble a swarm of sharks smelling blood in the water and circling the source looking to take a bite. I personally will support saving this marriage or even support bringing it to a peaceful end, but I will not pour gasoline on the fire rather than try to extinguish it.

JMHO and FWIW.

Mark

Mark,

Wonderful suggestions! You Rock.

Who

good suggestions yes...but until he comes clean about everything and passes a polygraph, RLT shouldn't even consider allowing him any access to her heart...not one little bit.
He is an abuser and should be treated as such until he proves otherwise.

Mr RLT<-----

"I feel uncomfortable! Waaaaaaaaaaaaah! That means that YOU are doing something wrong! Maybe everything wrong. I will isolate every decision you have made and decide it's wrong one at a time until you get busy making me comfortable again."

In the mind of Mr RLT...he is YOUR victim.

Everything would be FINE if you would just stop trying to be his wife instead of his mommy.

Everything would be FINE if you stopped trying to be his equal.

PS...The uber gushy language tipped me off too.

The question that needs to be answered here is this...

What will it take for him to remain married to RLT and have the kind of marriage she wants to have?

That is what he needs to do. Nothing else at this point matters.

Mr RLT if you don't, won't or can't agree to ANY terms to save your marriage at this point, it is done.

And should be...

But the beatings have reached the point of diminishing returns. RLT is not being helped by them; he is not being helped by them and the marriage is not being helped by them. They are now becoming nothing more than venting self-serving emotional content left over from personal issues that have gone unresolved and are now being recognized in another situation.

If the band wagon gets anyone else climbing on board, it will collapse of its own weight.

Suggestions as to what to DO have ceased long ago and what remains is what amounts to name calling and "me too" comments.

RLT needs to decide if she is even willing to let him try to save the marriage and what she needs from him for that to happen. Until the first is decided, everything else is a dead issue. If she decides she has had it, not what we all think her answer should be but what SHE wants to happen, no input matters.

And IF she decides that she is willing to let the marriage continue in hopes of saving it, then she has to decide what she needs from him to make that happen. Opinions then should reflect efforts to that end.

At this point everyone knows what has happened and who is at fault for what.



IF anyone with left over resentment needs to vent it because it still drives them nuts, start a venting past baggage thread and let RLT think without being prodded into what we all think she should do to avoid OUR mistakes. Give guidance where asked for and support when needed, but let's give the girl a break from tuning up the resentment another notch since until she gets HER thoughts under control she will not have any idea which way to go.

And telling MR RLT what HE is thinking, feeling or not doing is equivalent to barking at the moon...

Mark

Mark...you are entitled to your opinion....but don't tell me...and I will speak for just me...how to post.
The suggestions are flowing...you just don't agree with the direction of the flow.


When you say nothing else at this point matters ...in a way you are right...but bottom line is, there is still a lot of truths to be told here. As much as you want to be disrespectfl to the good people giving advice here....it has NOTHING to do with their own resentments...or how to avoid OUR mistakes...this is about RLT.

I agree with Mark.


(((((RLT)))))

FTS

Mark,

I will second MEDC's sentiments, do not tell me how to post.



There are no sharks here, only people concerned with and who care about RLT.



What matters at this point is that RLT is protected.



Opinions have reflected at this point what needs to happen.



There is no one on this thread with left over resentments, perhaps experience with serial cheaters who have knowledge on how to deal them. Do you Mark, have experience with serial cheaters?



There have been many solutions offered. There have been many suggestions offered.

I have just driven five hours to be with my husband and am on his laptop, because I am worried sick about RLT.

Do you realize Mark, that she has never had another boyfriend. That she has probably never worked outside of the home. Ther her WH has cheated on her when they were dating, when they were newleyweds, when she was pregnant, when she had small children...

Her husband is a serial cheater. She is completely at his financial mercy, that her self esteem is in the gutter...

And you have the audacity to come on here and tell her that all she can do is watch him try.

That is ABSULUTELY NOT ALL SHE CAN DO! She can put measures in place to protect herself financially. She can put measures in place to protect herself emotionally. She is ABSOLUTLEY NOT AT HIS MERCY.

HER SERIEAL CHEATING, WAYWARD HUSBAND WILL NOT CHANGE UNTIL HE ABOSLUTELY HAS TO, AND IT IS UP TO RLT TO LET HIM KNOW THAT SHE WILL NO LONGER LIVE THIS WAY.

Once she is protected, she can sit back and watch him try.

You will help them have a peaceful divorce if that is what she wants.... how nice of you.

She doesn't have to get divorced or sit back and watch him try...those are not her only options. She has the option of taking control of the situation and saying NO MORE. She does have that option.

I am doing a complete right turn on this one and saying that she does not need to sit back and watch...she needs to take action. He is the one who needs to sit back and watch. Watch her go, watch her grow in strength, watch her say, I DO NOT NEED TO SETTLE FOR THIS ANY MORE.

Are you going to be around next year MARK, when, if RLT doesn't make any changes and get tough, and get strong, and get some financial security?


And if you are talking about me having unresolved issues, I am happily married, financially independent...and I care a great deal about women who are being abused. Women who have never known anything other than what they are left sitting holding when the person who is supposed to love, honor and protect them has reduced them to having no options at all.

I will stay on this thread, and speak as I see fit, until I know that RLT has found her strength and is control of her situation.

Bravo Weaver!

My recommendation is to take the game-plan off the board now. Since WHofRLT is reading here and plotting against her instead of protecting her from himself, let's not give him any game plan she might choose for herself.

She needs a safe place where he can't thwart with his continued psychological war on her.

RLT - my best wishes for a safe and gentle weekend.

Weaver said it all..

I personally think it is HELPFUL to know that people just don't buy Mr RLTs stuff. It's helpful for her to know because her head is spinning. For her to do nothing would be exremely damaging.

And, since you don't know a thing about me....I am ANYTHING BUT someone with unresolved issues. I too am happily married, financially independent and am in no way venting some past issues that I have projected to this situation. I am just profoundly sad and upset that for all RLT has been through, she now has to endure this present assault on her life.

Weaver:

Cool. That was very well said.

Mark:

You know what the only difference between WHofRLT and a troll is? Apparently, he's "married" 2 someone on this thread.

That's it.

Same hit and run posting style.

Same lies, intended 2 dupe not only rlt, but everyone here. Frankly, ink me among the ranks of those who saw a hollow phoney in the first post.

Can this marriage be saved? I have no idea. I only know me and my marriage, and probably not even as well as I should.

But a serial cheater? And since before the marriage?

The odds aren't particularly good.

Go ahead, WHofRLT, prove me wrong. I double-dog dare ya.

...but frankly, I will be surprised 2 see another post from the man.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. I TRIPLE-dog dare ya!

Like a former vet here used 2 say in cases like this, though... ...I HATE being lied 2.

A truly FWS coming here for help and catching my attention on these boards is one thing. I'd be happy 2 give some of my perspectives. Heck, even an active WS sincerely trying 2 stop, I'd try 2 help if I could.

But an active (in all probability) WS LYING 2 try 2 make it appear they really want 2 do whatever it takes 2 make amends for the crap they've pulled?

-ol' 2long.

Im the BS of a FWH serial adulterer who did not stop until his own son walked in on him and the OW in our home.

RLT... his ACTIONS are speaking louder than any defense he canmake. Please listen to his ACTIONS. What are they saying to you?

To me they are saying its still ALL ABOUT HIM and nothing about you.

I'd run.

I have no advice. I know how it feels to be w/ a serial cheater. My WH only confessed to one, but once other people knew we were seperated the stories started coming. I couldn't handle it. I often had to say,"Enough, I can't hear anymore." And then the lack of remorse from WH...

It is overwhelming. It is..there is no words.

RLT...just checking in to see how you are doing.

Thank you for all of your responses.

I took a well needed 48 hour reprieve from my house with my daughter. It did a world of good.

A lot happened yesterday between me and Mr. RLT. I believe it was a breakthrough as he completely purged himself of everything.

Everyone here, I truly appreciate your advice and your concern, and I am in NO WAY backing down, or weakening with my husband. We are STILL in a controlled separation.

I would like to continue with this thread and let you know our progress, but please, the attacks on MR. RLT are becoming downright nasty from some, and I don't see a reason for it. Yes, he's done some very bad things, but if I didn't see ANY good and admirable qualities in him as a husband and father, I wouldn't bother with any of this. So please ... constructive criticism is good. But no more bashing.

And, again, while I do appreciate and take into account what EVERYONE says here, can we not attack each other?

Please? Not on my thread. I'm going through enough heartache here.

Thank you.

I will fill you in on more details in a bit.

RLT... I will take my leave of this thread. While I appreciate your request, I am not certain I can honor it. I believe that your H deserves every word that was directed his way on this thread...even more....and I am concerned that you are seeing what you WANT to with this "man" and not what really is.
I will wish you luck and pray that you do not allow him to con you any longer.
Best wishes.

MEDC

This is wonderful news. I just hope for both of your sakes that it WAS the breakthrough that needed to happen and that the healing can now finally begin in earnest. It's not going to be easy, in fact, it's going to be downright HARD. If both of you do the work (more so on the part of Mr. RLT) you CAN heal and restore your marriage to be the marriage that God intended for you both in the first place. Just keep looking UP to Him and eventually you'll find that you're closer than you've ever been to each other.

(((Mr. and Mrs. RLT)))

RLT,

I apologise if I was overly harsh on Mr. RLT. I think that he doesn't want to keep hurting you and isn't quite sure what to do to start to make things better. As a result, I believe he acts inappropriately out of fear.

This thread hits home with those of us (me included) who will always feel that there was and is so much more to our FWS infidelity that we have so far heard. And the reality of it (and your situation) scares us half to death.

I do believe that Mr. RLT's infidelity is in the past and that is something. I know the lies are tough, they have been for me as well.

I honestly hope that you two can work this out and end up with a recovered marriage.

Please stay strong. My prayers and best wishes are with you.

Who

You have absolutely no proof of this.

Look carefully at your belief here.

WHY do you believe this?

You can't verify it.

You know he's a habitual liar.

What exactly is it that gives him credability?

He gave a good performance and moved you? Gained your sympathy?

Why do I believe that he told the whole truth?

I don't know, Noodle. Perhaps there is more. Probably there is. But he spilled a lot. And it was difficult for him.

If I can't verify it, if I can't believe him when he spills stuff that is very painful, then why do I eve bother?

Nothing gives him credibility right now.

But I don't see why this isn't a first good step.

RLT:

Actions, not words.

IF you feel he has come clean, it gives you a place to really start Rebuilding this marriage.

Show him approval of his actions.

What appointments does he have to make?

Does he?

Did he keep them?

Did he tell you what happened?

Did he schedule a followup?

That is what truly gives him credibility.

Words are nice. Really. Thank him for them.

But it is the actions that you should show him the most approval and support.

Actions, not words.

LG

He has an appt. with a counselor on Thursday.

i'm praying for you RLT. and for Mr.RLT too.

last word...I think ...if you let him weasel his way out of the polygraph you are inviting trouble into your life.

As Noodle says...He gave a good performance and moved you??? He has shown himself to be an actor in your life for year after year...and I would bet the house that he is continuing to do it. Counseling is fine after he passes the polygraph. He lies to everyone...you think he won't lie to a counselor???

I am not letting him weasel out of the polygraph, MEDC. I have a couple of calls in, and will make the final appt. tomorrow. There is also the dreaded money issue. I am waiting on a payday. This is not an excuse, just the way it is. I am working now on composing the questions.

I did have an issue this weekend where he (in a desperate moment) called his parents. Of course, they pleaded with him NOT to take the poly, and pretty much blasted me for even asking him to take one. They condone his every action, good or bad, and don't think he should be held accountable for anything.

Thank God, literally, that Mr. RLT, in prayer, was led in a different direction and has fully agreed to the polygraph.

Obviously, his parents and I are on the outs. I told Mr. RLT there can be no contact with them as long as they are against our recovery efforts, which they are. They were told this by him, and now, of course, I am the villian.

Thank you, FL

Is the neighbor on the permanent outs too - with a NC letter written to him?

Has he ponied up to set himself on a very lean budget to make up for the money he stole from the family to spend on HO?

Has he curtailed his temper and angry outbursts at you?

Has he curtailed his expectations that somehow you can ease up on him and all will be right?

Has he cut himself off from all addictive behaviors and found a general 12 step meeting in the area where he can find FREE recovery support?

Has he found himself a tough sponsor from that organization who will hold him accountable for his actions?

There is much ACTION he can do that will not cost a dime - but will cost him his pride - which I think is too expensive right now for him to hold on to?

Hi All,

I haven't posted because I have been emotionally exhausted.

A lot has happened, a lot of stuff I am trying to process.

Among the revelations that came out on Sunday was that Mr. RLT had an inappropriate kiss with my sister while I was pregnant with my third child. That was 13 years ago. My sister adamantly denies this. Mr. RLT adamantly says it DID happen. So, this will be one of the polygraph questions. If the polygraph shows he is being honest about it, I don't know what I will do. I know that there is to be no contact for life with anyone he had this type of encounter with. This puts me in a very bad spot, indeed.

Also, before we spoke on Sunday, Mr. RLT broke a rule which we'd made in counseling which was that he was to have no contact with his parents without me present. He got scared, and he called them looking for validation. He told them about the poly. Naturally they implored him NOT to take it. Of course they bad mouthed me the whole time. So he was getting what he wanted, comfort from them when he needed it. Long story short, this turned into a BIG fight. He called his parents, under my instruction, to tell them he could no longer have contact with them. I heard her bad mouthing me on the phone as he spoke to her. I yelled, F-U. She yelled it back. Mr. RLT hung up. Now I am the villian, again.

This is getting sickeningly ridiculous. I have about had it. His cousin sent him an email saying something about how he should make up his own mind and not let someone else dictate his actions. He wrote back some blubbery note about how much he loves his "darling cousin" and knows that everyone in his family loves him "no matter what."

What a bunch of BS.

I am trying to help the guy and he keeps running back to these people for justification of his actions.

I'm about to give up here...

RT..you have lowered the price of admission to your life so far right now that it seems that you are willing to accept anything to remain married. MB is not marriage at all costs. At last count this man has had at least...and I say at least since I still believe there is more to be said...8 affairs of one sort or another. on top of that he is a liar of astronomical proportions. He lies to any and everyone.

Yet..you are "about to give up." What hasn't this man done to you? Why do you value yourself so little to accept a person treating you this way? He should have been kicked to the curb a long time ago and he should have needed to prove himself before you ever gave him another shot at redemption. And yet it is only NOW getting sickeningly ridiculous. Sorry...that bridge was passed a long time ago. You are a party to your own pain at this point...you have looked the enemy in the eyes...and in many ways, it is you. You are the one that is allowing him to treat you like dirt...you are the one that is giving him repeated get out of jail free cards...he has earned nothing.
Your H is a sick, twisted and demented "man." Sorry, but that is the truth. does he have the ability to change??? Maybe...but not on his own and it will take a long time. What about this "man" makes him worth the wait? What about this "man" makes you think he is a good father? He's not. Never was.
Sorry...but these words are the truth RLT...I feel for your pain...but you will continue to suffer as long as you allow him access to your life.

REading my old posts here from last year.

God, what an a$$ I was!!!

EVERYONE here was telling me to trust THEM, not HIM, and that he was, INDEED, still in the affair.

I jumped to his defense. I said I was confinced that he wasn't.

I was wrong. I was gaslighted. I was tricked.

He lied.

STOP blaming yourself and DO something about this.
Your life could be so much better.
RLT, I go out on dates with women that have allowed themselves to be abused for far too long...you know what...most of them have allowed so much damage to happen to them that they are afraid to care/trust/love. NEVER let the ****** win. Take back your life. He does not deserve it.

Do you think I should divorce him, MEDC?

I was basically told by him on Sunday that he is a sex addict. I won't give details because they are too heartwrenching.

He needs helps. He needs serious help. And he is taking steps to get it. He has an appt. Thurs. with a sex addiction counselor.

Should I just bail on him ... now?

Yes, I do think you should divorce him...but that is just my opinion.
What I DO KNOW, is that you should be apart from him right now. His appointement, IMO, is just another attempt to pull the wool over your eyes.
RLT, you need to remove yourself from him before you can really see how toxic he really is.
But since you asked for my opinion...divorce yes.....as fast as possible.

RLT,

I hesitate to post to you now since you've basically ignored my posts on this thread, and I don't know why. But that's o.k.

My last piece of advice....read the RecoveryNation website for information on sexual addiction yourself, if you haven't already, and decide for yourself if he really is an addict, or just an a-hole. The more info you have, the better informed you'll be to make a decision you can live with.

Edited to add.....even if he is an addict, don't let him use that as an excuse for further infidelity. You'll see why after you've read enough.

OMG--Mopey--I NEVER MEANT TO IGNORE YOU!!!

Please, don't think that. I value your input as I know we have been in the same situation.

I'm sorry. My head is just spinning. I don't even know when or who I am responding to anymore.

I am SO SORRY.

Thank you. I have gone on recoverynation.com. I went on it last year after someone was tipped off that that may have been his problem.

You're right. I WILL NOT let him use this as an excuse for further infidelity.

Mopey, is your husband Windstopped?
Are you guys dealing with sex addition issues?

If so, I'd like to talk to you. This is so foreign to me, and I really need help with it.

Thank you.

I'll be waiting for your post.

Thanks RLT. I thought you may have ignored my posts because you didn't want to consider the possibility that he may have a sexual addiction. I felt like the grim reaper.

I completely understand the head spinning part. Now, you have soooo many issues to deal with that they all just run together and the second you pinpoint some pain, there's more to pinpoint right after it, and so on, and so on.....

And I'm sorry that I felt ignored. I should understand better than anyone how hard it is to post when you're in so much turmoil. I have regrettably done that myself in the past.

Future pact......don't feel obligated to post back to me if you're not able to because I understand. I know sometimes it takes me a few weeks before I can get back to something because I haven't processed it yet.





Good. But now, I think it would be wise of you to go back and read as much as you can in the partner's lessons and the SA's lessons. Also read the lesson responses and the forums. My H is an equal opportunity addict (previously in HS it was drugs, then alcohol, then books, then video games with sexual stuff in between) so, I am still trying to figure out if he's really an SA or just an a-hole.

However, my H is doing a lot to try to save our marriage, and the RN site makes sense, and there is hope for me should I decide that I can accept the past and build a new future with him. I'm not making any promises at this point, but I am still working on it because he is. I told him this weekend that I don't know if I can ever get past the fact that he was unfaithful to me from the beginning of our relationship. One day at a time is how I'm dealing with it.

Make a special effort to read what "true recovery" looks like on that site.



Good because if you were to, he'd never change. It's like a kid who was abused and using that as an excuse to do whatever they feel like it in their adult life. It just doesn't work that way.



Yes, he is Windstopped on this forum and on the RN site. And yes, we are dealing with SA issues. You can read his stuff. Just do a search for his name.



I'd be happy to talk with you. You can e-mail me at [email]mopey100@gmail.com.[/email] If you want to talk by phone, let me know in the e-mail and we can exchange phone numbers.

I have to warn you though, I'm only 6 weeks into this and I don't have all the answers myself but Coach Jon, Coach Beth and Coach Laurie are there to help with questions if you post in the forums.

When I was where you are at right now, I couldn't believe this was my life. Still can't really. But remember, this is not about you, it's about your husband and HIS immaturity. You and I are in a whole other league.

And don't blame yourself for trusting your H, SA's are VERY skilled at lying, they've been doing it their whole lives are are experts. They have learned to rationalize their behavior way before we knew them.

mopey,

I sent you an email.

I will send you another with my phone #.

RLT..while I am sure that Mopey will have valuable insight for you...it is time for you to STOP wondering about the why's and the how's with your H. Just start dealing with what IS. SA IMO is just another crutch that people use for acting a horribel fashion.
Even if it is true...which I highly doubt..your H is still not someone that should be allowed access to your life. You have enough to deal with regarding that clown...don't try and find yet another reason to explain away his behavior.

MEDC

I got it RLT and responded.

Medc.....I agree that having a "sexual addiction" can be used by people as a crutch. But not with me. I am not and will never use that as an excuse for what he has done to me.

Just checking in on you RLT. Hope you are having a good day. Please know that I pray for you often.

RLT, just thinking about you guys this morning.

SA is not only a social issue but it's also a spiritual issue.

A couple of years ago at our church they devoted an entire Sunday morning service to this issue (SA). They had all the younger children leave but asked that the teenagers and young adults stay. They had a panel of six couples on the platform in a forum like circle who discussed how SA (including pornography and affairs) affected (devasted) their lives and their marriages. Some of the men ended up divorced and some stayed in their marriages. All of them were healed or on the road to healing. One of the major themes throughout the discussion was accountability (to their wives, to other men going through the same thing, to their pastor(s), etc). There could be no healing without it.

the problem is that too many people will claim a sexual addiction to try and excuse their horrible behavior.
I would say that the vast majority of people that claim sexual addiction of full of baloney.
But like everything else in our society today...call it an addiction and gain some sympathy.

I have a diagnosis for the WH in this situation. He is a selfish, self centered little boy that felt he could abuse and manipulate his wife all he wanted. he is a typical abuser that makes the abused feel as though something is wrong with her. Nothing special about this man...and I use that term to identify his gender only...he is just a run of the mill abusive spouse that has been at it for years.

I don't always agree with everything you say, but you have hit on something here that I wholeheartedly agree with! "Addiction" is such an over-used term, oftentimes used to mask the fact that most of us do exactly what we want to do. I get weary of excuses of sex addiction, porn addiction, alcohol addiction, food addiction, drug addiction, rage addiction etc. etc. If people would just own up the fact that they let their sin of choice affect their actions, and that they can quit behaving destructively with God's help, when they so choose, it would make life a lot simpler.

even those that have no God in their daily lives...those that do not believe do not need to use these ridiculous crutches to explain away their horrible behavior...they do not need to succumb to their base desires.
Look at Hollywood these days...every time someone says or does something wrong now....they enter rehab for one addiction or another. It is all "spin" to make them seem like a victim rather than a lousy person.

It's a very effective way of keeping RLT in the game. It also deflects any attention away from WH, and his accountability, his responsibility to provide protection to RLT in the event of future infidelity.

All it does for me though, is cement my thoughts that RLT should demand a post-nuptial agreement outlining exactly what will happen in the event of future screw ups.

As an SA, the likelihood of relapse is even more highly probable.

If the man truly loves his family, if he truly feels he is an SA...nothing should stop him from offering this type of protection to them.

Insurance, not assurance.

Actually, be he truly an addict, a post-nup is the kindest thing rlt can do for him as well. Nothing like the very real consequence of walking away with nothing to keep you on the right path.

Mark, if you are still around, I would like to apologise for the brutalness of my response to you the other night. It was nothing personal against you, you are a kind and valued poster. I am so sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way.

WH is not a victim here. His parents do not make him unaccountable, he does that all on his own.



Why dan't he talk to his parents? He is not a child, he is a grown man. Don't fall into the trap of making him into the victim by making his parents out to be villains. You both need to hold yourselves accoutnable for your actions (or inactions).

You are falling into (or have always been) the role of jailer. This suits the infidels needs perfectly.



Help in what rlt? You are not his mother. Why are you in this role?

You are portraying yourself as the jailer and the rescuer. How will that work?

Let him clean up his own mess rlt. Let him become a man who is not influenced by others, only his own moral code and value system.

You are preventing this from happening. This is what Noodle and Kayla (through her recounting of her experience) are getting at.

You have decided to play the game, when you should have removed yourself from it and let him rise to the occasion.

Your choice, but it lowers the chances of that man ever being a great husband and good man, IMHO.

We can all tell stories upon stories of people who have changed and become good people, but only when the others in their life got the ****** out of the way and let them fall. And then forced them to prove themselves.

This is what brings on change.

I know nothing of SA or it's validity, so I'm going to bow out of your thread now. Call me out if your ever want to. And know that I will be thinking of you and hoping for the very best outcome for you and your children, rlt.

You're right, weaver.

As far as those of you questioning whether or not he is an SA, well, I don't know myself. What constitutes an SA? What separates an SA from just a plain ol' a-hole, as mopey says?

There's info given to me I haven't posted here. There's also info that Mr. RLT is withholding. More cruelty ... throwing out bits and pieces of a story, but then keeping the rest ... "I'll only tell you IF you commit to me." Right. "I'll tell you when I feel safe telling you." Translation: I'm gonna hold my cards here as long as I see fit, and to he77 with what you think, what you're going through."

Have you two ever filled out the personal history questionnaire from Harley?

no we have not, ST. I do have the book with all of the questionnaires in it.

But given his most recent stance, he would not even be honest if I had him fill it out anyway.

Hard reality/truth -- Until he becomes 1000% honest, there is no chance of recovery. Perhaps a true seperation will show him the seriousness of the situation.

He will treat you like dirt as long as you let him.

You are worth more than this....and yet..here you still are dealing with a man that abuses you on a daily basis.

Let me ask you RLT...what will it take for you to give up on him? What hasn't he done to you already?

As far as what seperates a SA from a plain ol a-hole...web MD has a nice decription of it. But I think what really seperates it is if he has an audience that is willing to buy his sob story.

You will still be stuck 12 months from now if you keep him in your life. At that point, you will look back and have a bunch of regrets about how he stole another year from you.

What is your payoff for stying with this abusive coward?

I don't see having an explaination of why someone behaved in the past the way they did as making excuses. It's what happens after new knowledge is gained that will show whether it's going to continue. Or whether there is some sort of expectation that it removes consequences.

Any label can be used as an excuse for behavior. Take Wayward Spouse as an example. "She's in a fog." How often do we see that explaination tossed out to describe someones behavior. Then it's used for plan A/plan B/180...etc.

Labels simply make it easier to describe something.

I'm very happy someone suggested RN to my wife and I. I can relate to the feelings of the people there and there is a solid plan in place to remove the root of addictive behaviors. This isn't limited to sexual addiction. The root is the same for all addictions. At least, that's my current belief. I don't know whether I would be considered SA or not. I know I didn't go as far into it as most that post there. I never made it beyond what's described as "stage 1". I also know some of my thoughts and feelings match what that label describes.

I am in no way suggesting my wife alter her choices based on this knowledge. My choices have destroyed our marriage. I don't expect her to live with the fear of being inimate with me. She'll need to decide whether it's worth the risk going forward.

I plan to continue working on the lessons that deal with intimacy problems. Sorry....SA....for all the label readers.

Windstopped,

What is that root?

((RLT)))

If I understand your earlier post today there are new secrets that are still trickling in AND he is purposely withholding more information until you committ to him?

I am having a lot of difficutly understanding the type of thinking that is going on.

First, how could anyone be expected to commit to anything without all the facts? This is very backward thinking. Secondly, haven't you previously shown that you had committed fully only to be hurt again and again?

And lastly, ask yourself how he can even think that he should make ANY demands at this point? If he were completely humbled and regrettful all truth would have been out at this point and he would be OFFERING everything he had to stop your pain and beg forgiveness and to show HIS COMITTMENT TO YOU, not the other way around.

Who knows if he is SA or not, to me it would not really matter that much ( I do think MEDCs assumption that he is grabbing for an excuse is absolutely right). What matters is how you have been treated and the expectation of how you will be treated in the future.

At his presumably most humble time he still is withholding information from you and using it as a bartering tool to get you back. This is rather strange thinking RLT. Like MEDC asked, what are you receiving from this relationship that keeps you here? Not a 2x4 at all, just a question.

Only if he choses to continue his sick behavior and she choses to base her identity on him.

Problems with intimacy.

On second thought, I don't want to muddy up rlt's thread with a concurrent discussion. Sorry.

everything sothis said is exactly what I told Mr. RLT--it's backwards thinking. But honestly, I am coming to a sad realization here that his emotional growth was seriously stunted along the lines, most definitely having to do with his upbringing, and all of the warped concepts (for lack of a better word) that were taught him. But he doesn't see that. He swims in his own sense of warped reality while many who know him look at him when he speaks and says, "Ha?"
Even his own kids do it.

Can he get over it? Can he come to a new reality?

I dunno...

Windstopped ... I agree with you. If he recognizes the behavior, (ALL of the behavior, the twisted way of thinking and turning things around AS WELL as the SA), then there might be a hope for recovery here.

He, too, has problems with intimacy.

sick, what am I receiving that keeps me in the relationship?

I'll tell you the truth, sick. I have my own issues. My father abandoned his wife and 3 kids when I was 12. I was the oldest. I became a total co depdendent because of it. And I am SCARED TO DEATH of a second abandonment.

So there's your answer.

RLT...you have already been abandonned. The only one that hasn't seen that yet is you.
If you cut loose of this creep, you will find a better life. He is a cancer to your self esteem and life...and the longer you let it spread...the more difficult it will be to remove.

You are being abused.

Medc,

I understand what you are saying, at least I am coming to an understanding of what you are saying.

But please don't call him a creep. It doesn't do anybody any good.

I'm not defending his actions. I'm not.

weaver, I didn't get to see what you edited.

What concurrent issues?

RLT...let me ask you a question...is he a creep? I eam that in all seriousness. In your opinion...what does it take to rise to the level of "creep" or some other things that have been used to describe him?

Is he a liar...or someone that just happens to lie?

Is he a cheater...or a victim of his own actions?

Is he an abuser?

Really RLT...if your H is not a creep...what else would he have to do to earn that title? How many more lies, affairs and abuse would he have to put you through?

I used the word creep as a generic term. IMHO, he deserves mush more. I am just curious as to why you are unwilling to call a spade a spade.

If you child came home and told you he was treated like this...how would you feel? Do you think stronger words than creep would flow?

I really am curious and trying to get you to focus on just how bad your H has been.

Yes, Medc, he has been bad. He has been very bad.

But (and again, I'm not defending him here), he is a human being with a bucket load of problems. And believe or not he has good qualities, too. If he didn't, I wouldn't still be here.

Medc, despite EVERYTHING, I have a lifetime of great memories with this man. I have 3 wonderful children with him. We've lived through just about anything and everything a married couple can live through ... poverty, prosperity, sickness, laughter, tears, dreams, broken dreams, successes, failures ... the list goes on.

How does one just end that, MEDC?

And if it comes to light that he does truly have an addiction problem, I'm just supposed to bail on him?

Didn't I marry him in sickness and in health?

I know you think SA is just an excuse he's wielding around. And perhaps it is. But maybe it isn't.

I guess time will tell.

Oh, it was just a question on addictions and how problems with intimacy could be related to all addictions. I don't want to confuse the issue with my own personal thing I have going on right now.

Also I will add that I agree you have already been abandoned, and also with Wind, that one of the problems you need to address is basing your identity on you know who.

Also, I went back and read one of your old threads to see if I could see anything where I may be offbase in saying you need to make some changes...and I didn't.

Noodle has mentioned last year in November that what you needed to do was find out who your are, what your boundaries are.

This is a first step in really being able to change our lives.

I was fortunate to have very strong women and men here help me in that dept, also I studied what made them so succesful in their lives. It was my life's mission at the time. I simply could not stand the pain any more, and I knew I was partly to blame.

It was a radical change in perspective for me, and very life changing.

You don't want us bashing your WH, but I have to tell you that in my my life no one, NO ONE told me what a jerk my ex was. They all enabled him, even his children and mother, even my own family, even my friends..."if only I could help bring up his self-esteem" "maybe it was true and all his past three wives just weren't the right women for him, and I was" "maybe he wasn't really a POS, just lost and needed a good woman like me" "maybe if I signed over that one piece of property, his self esteem wuold get that boost it needed"... Only my college aged Nephew never, ever waivered in his opinion (he was the one who took the call from ex's wife telling me he was married (8 months and us being engaged before I knew)...for the whole five years later, my nephew never looked him in the face or spoke to him. He was the only one who had the balls to say this guy is no good, and I am not going to pretend he is.

There were a few here who would also never waivered, once knowing my story, they told me from the get go, he was a POS... WAT, 2long, Graycloud....and then Mel, and Pep, shattered dreams...in all their wisdom and mostly by me just reading their stuff (along with many other men and women I used to read here)...helped me to see ...

Well I used to be just like you. I was so brainwashed, so confused, so hurt...I needed to hear what we are telling you.

great memories. and how many of those great memories are tainted by his actions? How many are truly clean? From what I have read in your thread...I would venture zero.

The thing is rlt, he won't change unless he absolutely has to...and you will continue in the unhealthy dynamic of rescuer, punisher, jailer.

I just want you to protect yourself, and I want him to show his commitment by protecting you as well.

I can't get past the fact that he says he wants to be married and be faithful, he wants your commitment but he offers no concrete protection for you... And as someone else says, he is not 1000 percent honest, not even 100. There is absolutely no transparent honesty, this is why you wanted the polygraph in the first place.

And now he is an SA, so he needs your help. How can you leave him now indeed.

It's so obvious to us. Everything he does is designed to avoid responsiblity...and it appears everyone in his life encourages this. Even you.

It's his parents fault.

He has so many problems.

He has this terrible SA.

Don't you see this, what's going on?

I don't believe him because he is not offering any protection to you against himself.

Why would you even want to try without that? This is not a one one affair that happened to a person with an otherwise spotless record. This is a whole nutha animal.

a whole nutha animal.

And I have to slowly come to this realization.

Do you know how difficult that is?

And yes, Medc, you're right. It is all tainted.

Yes. Please go back and read Kayla's threads, on how her husband changed. Kayla said we probably shouldn't keep putting this out here for him to read.

But go back and read. The answers are in this thread. Come up with plan, while at the same time knowing that you have a lot of control in this.

You don't have to get divorced if you don't want to. Re-read the posts to you and see where the answers are. There is a way, rlt. Find it.

RLT,

I didn't really ask the question for me to know the answer as much as I wanted to know if YOU knew why you choose to stay in this environment. I assumed it was fear of something beause fear is almost always what keeps us stuck. It is good for you that you know what it is...fear of abandonment.

Others have said you have already been abandoned. I would agree as well. It is clear that you are having trouble seeing what we are seeing. That is very common with people that have been abused, and this is absolutely abuse dear. I'm sorry and I realize this will be horribly painful for you, but you must start to demand honesty from yourself.

PLEASE don't get distracted with the SA thing, RLT. It's another ruse and it doesn't change one thing. Not one. Maybe I'm getting this wrong but it sounds like you want to cling to any excuse to explain away his actions. That is enabling and codependent behavior. Totally normal for people who have had things twisted around on them for so long. It really is important for you to stop the codependent pattern...that will help you see what's really there and it will actually help Mr Rlt too.



I notice that you continue to protect him..why is that? You are protecting the very person that has inflicted all the damage to your family. Even really bad people often have some redeeming qualities but if they continue to inflict pain, when does the pain out weigh the good? I guess that's another question....Do the good memories and his good qualities really over come what he has done for the entire marriage? Really put some thought on that.

Last question...how does all of this effect your children? What are they learning?

(((RLT)))

My children are deeply affected.

One has moved out for a second time, and I don't blame him. I told him I would go with him if I could (just kidding, of course). He's 18, so he was going to move out soon, anyway. I just didn't want it under these circumstances.

The 17 year old boy, I caught watching porn in the middle of the night two nights ago. Great.

The third, our daughter, 13, is trying VERY hard to just live a kid life. I think she is already exhibiting conflict avoidant behavior as she tries very hard to pretend that nothing is wrong.

Yes, indeed, it is ins't it? I'm no shrink, but I have heard that this type of personality is frequently referred to as a sociopath. that simply means they have no moral compass, and no sympathy for whomever they hurt that comes in their path.

If you are in the way of their desires, they will run over you like a freight train and not look back.

I truly hope this is not your case RLT, but change of heart begins in the soul. Has Mr. RLT begun to reach out to God yet, or does he still belive he can fix it himself?

Be wary of his plan, and look for signs of God"s plan.

All blessings,
Jerry

Jerry,

Here's the thing:

For the past year and a half, he appeared to reaching out for God's Plan. What did I discover was really going on in that time ... when he had begun reading the Bible daily and going to church????

That he, indeed, was still carrying on with OW, taking HER to church (albeit, a Unity church, which is a joke, IMO), and actually bought her a cross necklace.

That, when he DID come home in earnest in November, he was still carrying around a butt load of secrets which he NEVER intended to tell me, ever.

I think he was trying to play two ends against the middle, trying to follow God's Plan, and his own, concurrently, and thinking that it would actually work, and that God had already forgiven him, so what the hay.

I think God is convicting him right now.

That's what I think.

oh, and btw, he is still carrying secrets.

God will convict him of those, too.

I know you are wounded RLT...but can't you see what you are allowing to happen here. No matter how tough this is, your husband is tearing apart your entire family.
Imagine for a minute...last year you got rid of him..or at least forced him to earn his way back into your life with actions, not words...how much better could your and your children's lives be right now? I think a lot.
I don't think you need to feel guilty about this...I think you just need to change it NOW...not tomorrow, not this weekend...NOW. You need to stop thinking about this and start doing something about this.
Look at SMB's situation...and your H is a lot worse than hers...think her kids are better off now? I do.
It's time and the longer you wait, the more damage you and your kids will suffer.

You had the opportunity last week to put his feet to the fire...giving him one chance to be honest with you...yet here you still are...made aware of a few more of his atrocious activities...and yet, he still keeps secrets, calls a lawyer, drags his feet on the polygraph, seeks out enablers...etc.

WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?

what could you be if you were no longer afraid?

what could I be?

I don't know, MEDC. I have never been anything except what I am.

you could be a woman that is proud of her life

a woman that shows her kids what self respect is all about...by her actions.

you could be loved in a healthy fashion.

you could recognize that you are worthy of every good thing that comes your way.

you could be the woman that instead of wasting any more time on an abuser..is willing to take the chance and really live her life to the fullest.

I have been on dates with women...fantastic women that had been sucked into the type of life that has become the norm for you...they are now radiant. Their own laugh doesn't startle them anymore...it is a welcome friend...not an infrequent guest.

You could laugh from the gut, smile with your eyes...breathe...really breathe for the first time in years.

Every journey begins with a first step.

If he is doing nothing about it....yes. (IMO anyway...it's your life....and your kid's)

Anything else on his part is simply using it as an excuse.

Seeing potential reasons someone developed an unhealthy way of dealing with life doesn't absolve them the consequences. Protecting him from the consequences stunts his growth.

I am just trying to understand your thinking better...

Are you saying that if someone says he has an addiction problem you think you can't or shouldn't leave?

I'm not saying that at all and it's certainly up to the victim to decide whether there's any chance at reconciliation of all the past harm.

I'm saying that if there is no effort made at removing the addiction, run in the other direction. Unless you are comfortable living with it. That's not how I would choose to live.

It's right in line with an affair. You can't begin to heal while the WS is elsewhere. Physically or mentally.

Addiction is a method of escape. An unhealthy way of dealing with or avoiding emotions. Call it the OP, drugs, booze, gambling...etc. They are all symptoms of the problem and may be replaced by something else in the future.

Many have several things they turn to at the same time. The objective being escape. Escaping prohibits intimacy, which protects the addiction and perpetuates the feelings of isolation. An ugly self-perpetuating cycle that only the addict can break.

I'm not saying he's an addict. It sure looks that way to me, but he is the only one that knows.

from my vantage point and from what I read he doesn't look like an addict...he looks like a liar and a cheat...BUT NOT an addict.

but MEDC, I haven't told you everything.

I appreciate what you are saying windstopped...I was actually directing that to RLT because she mentioned earlier "what if" and "didn't I marry in sickness and in health." (I don't know how to do quotes!). But your insight was good.

Considering the damage here, with SO MUCH repetition, with SO MANY chances to fix this I personally would find this irrelevant. He could be or he could smooth talk his way with an IC to say that he was...either way, would not matter to me. WAAAY too many years, way too many women and most importantly, WAAY to many lies. I would not tolerate my kids lying to me and I have even ended a friendship or two over my life over honesty. How can there be a relationship if you don't even know who they are or what is going on???

How many others have divorced, with good cause, because their spouse was an addict? It's OK to say enough! It's OK to leave to protect yourself and your children. In fact, I believe that it is the only RIGHT thing to do...difficult when you have had your head turned around for so long, but in my mind, it is the only responsblie thing to do.

RLT, if your fear is abandonment, what would happen if your children just abandonded the situation because it is just too overwhelming? Your oldest son is already doing just that. I could live with my FWH leaving me but I could NEVER live with the fall out from the kids. Ever. You mentioned that they are having problems. You are the only one that has the power to change this. He can't, at least not now.

They NEED a parent that is in control of themselves and the situation. I know divorce is very difficult (I divorced my first husband 20 some years ago and raised my older sons on my own) but I felt that raising them with a highly disfunctional parent was worse. His IC at the time told me that it was better to raise a child with at least one healthy parent than two very unhealthy parents. She went on to say that if I stayed in that situation I would become as disfuntional as he was. She was right! Was it hard? Yup! Whenever they would cry (they were 4 and 6 at the time) it would break my heart (and resolve) but I kept that statement in my head. It was one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given.

Try to stop putting the focus on him and put it on you and your children. In fact, that is exactly what they teach in alanon. There is little discussion about the alcoholic. The focus is ALWAYS about the co dependents behavior and responses.

((RLT)))

My .02 re: addiction vs [censored].

If he is an [censored] he can change his mind and might.

So you need to raise the bar high and open the door.


If he is an "addict" or "sick" then maybe he CAN'T control himself.

So you need to get away from a man who can't control himself.

See...the flexability SHOULD be diminished by a genuine psych problem...otherwise it is being used to give you both permission to not change and not make hard decisions.

RLT,

I don't feel very qualified to speak here to you, as I am still finding my own way. But I have been following your thread closely. I am sorry that you are dealing with the brokeness of a man who refuses to recognize it. I understand how you feel, and how much you want your marriage, but cannot bear the dishonesty.

I have reached a point where I decided to take control. I was too afraid for awhile. Too afraid I'd say the wrong thing, or do the wrong thing, and jeapardize any chance at our marriage recovering. Once I turned my marriage and my WS over to God, TRULY released him, I began to experience freedom. I reached a point where I no longer prayed for WS to return, or to see the light, or anything else. I just began praying that God would have his way with my family. I stopped asking for my will. I truly believe that God's desire is for all marriages to be reconciled. This was my biggest struggle. I had to admit that even so, WS may never surrender to God. As long as he refuses to surrender to God, he has no place in my life. He deserves nothing from me (well, there are a few things he deserves from me, but I won't go there).

I made a list of what was REQUIRED for me to ever possibly trust H, just in case he came out of the fog. Things like polygraph, post nup agreement, NC letter, apology to me, apology and confession to family, accountability partners that I choose, and more. I made the list so that I wouldn't be swept away with emotion if he wanted to come home. Once I had that down on paper, it became so much clearer to me. It's either this, or goodbye.

Now I am in the process of setting boundaries for his involvement in our lives: visitation, phone calls, med care, activities, etc. (And he does NOT like it)

Release him, RLT. Set your boundaries for his return. Set your boundaries for life without him. Then move on. He will either see the change, and go above and beyond to prove himself to you. Or he will fight the boundaries and really begin to show his WS attitude. I cannot tell you how much more peace I have now and it's only been a month. I have begun to laugh again, granted not with the same passion I use to possess. But I know I am headed in the right direction. It is freeing to stand up and say, "Here's what I require. Here's what I can live with. You must respect my boundaries, as I am in charge of my life."

Just release him. Proceed forward with your life. And know that God has the power to do what we desire, but may have something better for us because HE knows the heart of our WS's. Then live one day at a time, and see where God takes you.

Remeber...fear keeps us STUCK

windstopped,

thank you for your input. I am trying to understand addiction a little better, although I haven't invested too much time in it as of yet because I just plain ol' don't feel like having to jump into that one. I am exhausted. Emotionally exhausted. And now the thought of having to go to some COSA meeting, well I just have no desire at the moment.

sick, no, no I don't think that just because someone has an addiction, I can't leave them. Certainly not. But, as windstopped alludes to, if they don't get help--run in the other direction. MR. RLT went to his first counselor meeting yesterday. He's about done reading Out of the Shadows. He is coming to a lot of realizations about himself. He is talking, little by little.

I don't want to give details on his activities. Hey, I'm new at this and am not sure what I'm supposed to say, not say. Even to you all who are my cyber friends. Imagine how I feel with my kids and family members. Mr. RLT says that things come out in time, he's supposed to make some "announcement" about it at some point, apologize, make amends.

Anyway, I will say this. If there was any doubt that he is a SA in my mind, it is gone. I heard things last night that were too detailed, and things that also jived with my memories. I believe he did not make it up. I know some of you will think I'm stupid for believing one word that comes out of his mouth--maybe I am. But I did just sit, and listen. Trust me all, I kept my distance from him. No physical signs of affection. He is, and will remain in the spare room.

SMB, I'm in a controlled separation. I am setting boundaries, and I am turning him over to God.

I still think it's okay, guys, for me to decide NOT to decide right now.

your H is playing you.

I could today convince any doctor that I am a SA. I could look at the symptoms and go in and say I have this and that.
Frankly, your H is a con artist and not a very good one at that.

So, when's the polygraph? They can ask him if he is a sex addict! When is it scheduled?

medc, with regard to the SA--playing me to what end?

To gain my sympathies. If that's the reason, I can tell you right now that the stuff I heard yesterday would NOT, and DID NOT gain my sympathies. The stuff was embarrassing, at the least, for him to tell, and frankly stuff I would not admit to my own mother, if I had done them.

Well RLT...

I don't know what to tell you.

It has been discussed at length...people have pointed out the weak link..the vulnerability in allowing him access to your mind and providing him the ability to influence you.

You are making a choice to be vulnerable to his deceit by allowing him access to your mind and by "listening" to his words and taking them to heart when he hasn't earned that blind trust.

This IS your choice.

If you choose to be conned then you will have to live with the outcome of that choice.

This is you not protecting yourself willfully and deliberately and frankly even a bit defiantly.

You have gone around this mountain several times over a period of more than a year and it seems that when you come to the jumping off place you draw back and RUN for the cover of denial.

I can only conclude that you are unprepared to leave him or take even minimal precautions in protecting yourself from further gaslighting under ANY circumstances so at this point I consider you a volunteer to the consequences.

yes...to gain your sympathies...and that is what he has done. You have removed yourself from the "jump off" point and are now defending him....buying his bull crappp.

So, when is the polygraph scheduled...or has he talked his way out of that too. Abusers are experts at buying more time...so, when is the appointment?

I agree with Noodle that you have become an accomplice to your own demise. This is all very sad to watch.

You may not feel sympathetic about what he has DONE, but you DO feel sympathetic toward him. My poor WS; no one understands him; or why I am doing what I am doing. I understand. I have caught myself starting to do similar things before H left.

Once he convinced me that he wanted to "work on things", I started protecting him in little ways or giving him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you don't see yourself doing this, but I think you are.

I am sorry to jump into this and sound so critical. But I think you are in a critical situation. When others have told you that as long as he is home with you, you cannot think clearly, I understand EXACTLY what they mean. It wasn't until my H left that my OWN fog started to clear. I am thinking so much more clearly. Things seem so much more simple and obvious.

What actions has your H done? His words, even his confessions, mean little at this point. What is he DOING? It looks to me like he has found another excuse to not take FULL responsibility for the horribly poor choices he has made with his life and with yours. An addict gets to say, it was because I am an addict. A spouse who is turning from his WS ways (whether he is an addict or not), says, it was because I was selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed, choosing sin over doing what is right.

Has he taken the polygraph? Has he SCHEDULED the polygraph? YOU should not have to do this if he is leaving his WS ways. Will he sign a post nup agreement? Has he confessed and apologized to his children and other extended family or is he still allowing the possibility for some to think, "Well, maybe she wasn't a good wife." I suggest you WRITE DOWN some very strict ACTIONS he needs to take, that have nothing to do with words. Confessions are just more words that cannot EVER be proven. His actions will prove his intent. Require some action that can be done with HIS MOUTH SHUT. Actions he can do without even living under the same roof.

My heart is aching for you. I know it is hard and your fear is very apparent in your postings. It is time to be strong, protect yourself and your children (even if they are out of the home).

filling out forms for polygraph as we "speak."

consent and credit card authorization forms. I have delayed this only because of the money.

I will be asking about the porn issues on the polygraph, if he is being truthful about them, or if this is a big fat Red Herring, as everyone here seems to think.

I'll let you know the results.

It doesn't MATTER if it is a "red herring" or if it is factually true that he is SA with all the bells and whistles.

The POINT is that it is being *used* as a manipulative tool.

WHO is filling out the forms? You? This is a simple action he can do.

SMB,

"A spouse who is turning from his WS ways (whether he is an addict or not), says, it was because I was selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed, choosing sin over doing what is right."

He has said this. He said it last night, but apparently I'm not supposed to believe it.

Yes, he has apologized to me, his children, and to my mother.

He has not yet had an opportunity to apologize to all of the extended family, as this has just come out recently. He says is going to. We'll see.

Actions so far--went to SA appt. Has another scheduled for Tuesday.

Was given into at appt. about accountability groups, will see if he follows through.

Confession last night was, as I said, specific, stuff that I can add 2 and 2 together because I was there throughout the years.

What's the point of the polygraph? I can't remember.

To see if he still had contact with the last OW, rlt? To see if he had been faithful since you renewed the vows?

And what does it mean if he passes?

What does it mean if he fails?

for all of the above, and porn activities.

I just want the truth, weaver.

I told him if he fails, I quit.

OK.

Your attitude is telling me that you have swallowed this hook and so far you aren't compelled to regurgitate it.

I think it's safe to say the cliff has been pointed out and and you have been urged and entreated to turn away from it.

If you don't agree that the cliff exists or you think that what you are doing now will protect you from falling I can't convince you otherwsie and it's really disrespectfull to continue to try beyond a certain point.

At this point you are ARGUING with and resisting people telling you to withdraw from him and moving closer to him emotionally and with regard to defending him rather than judging the situation objectively.

So there's nothing more I can really offer you.

I think the cliff is there and that you are going over it.

I think we had a similar conversation last year when you "went to" this same place emotionally/mentally. I "feel" the same vibe from you.

When he offers you a crumb you gobble it eagerly and believe that NOW he is SURELY going to turn it around without waiting for him to ACTUALLY turn it around before you accept any more crumbs.

You are an adult who has all of the information and resources that I do so if you choose not to use them I will respect your decision.

Good luck, I'm stepping out.

I hope you can spend some time with that 13 yo girl of yours this weekend. Go to the movie, out to lunch...get out with her and 17 yo. Try to have some fun and find some joy this weekend. Maybe you could make cookies and get some funny movies.

Gotta come out of the darkness and pain for awhile, and your kids deserve some happiness from you. They can't be happy without that.

I know if my little girl were here with me this weekend, that's what we would be doing.

There's nothing wrong with being sympathetic. It shows you're human and care. Just don't let that act as an excuse to accept inexcusable behavior. That's where your boundaries come in.

I know my wife would divorce me in the blink of an eye if I even came close to more acts of infidelity. Regardless of any other circumstance. I understand and admire that stance.

Selfish, self-centered and self-absorbed are described in SA behavior. We're not talking about different things, just causes and perhaps frequency. Isn't that what needs to be done? Find out what the initial causes are for behavior and change those? Stop the final act before it becomes a thought?

Selfish, self-centered and self-absorbed can all be used as excuses too. I imagine we'd want the person to not exhibit those behaviors either. We might even want them to seek help in changing them. Another basic requirement of the WS before trust can be restored.

How comfortable would anyone be if they were told. "I have no idea why I cheated on you, but I just know it won't happen again. There's nothing I need to do to prevent it, I have my own will power. Now....let's go get some Sushi."


RLT - I really hope you've discovered a path to your own healthy life. Once your husband has changed, if he does, what are you going to do? Is becoming a nervous wreck worrying about his stuff healthy for you? What have you done to be proud of yourself lately?

These are rhetorical questions to hopefully help you change your focus. He's a mess that you can't do anything about. Only he can change his path.

I would encourage you to handle the polygraph yourself. That way you won't question who he has chosen or whatever. It should be someone you're comfortable with, not the potential ad a dart hit.

I recommend meeting with the tester in a prior appointment to do the initial work on forming the questions. It's not as easy as you might think. Most likely, your questions won't be usable and you'll need help forming them.

If nothing else, the polygraph is a tool to get the purge beforehand. Not only does the test itself record fear, it also generates it in those who are hiding things.

The appointment to do the test should take at least 2 hours. Plan on 3. If the tester indicates they can do it more quickly, look elsewhere.

Also...I'm curious. If you don't mind, please take note as to whether his cardio is flat.

This is easier than actually having to change. It's fear and an unwillingness to implement any changes of your own. If it is an SA, that takes all the burden off of you, rlt. Your WH can fix his addiction, with no actual changes being made by you.

As wind said, if it is an addiction (and I know nothing about SA) that not only would your WH have to stop his sick behavior, but you would have to not have your identity wrapped up in his.

And you do, this is why what other people are thinking or saying is so important to you. What the OW is thinking of you, what his parents are thinking of you. And why you didn't boot him out and make him prove first that he was worthy of being married to.

For a healthy individual who has a healthy identity of their own, they wouldn't give a rats *ss what these people thought. They would know they are a respectable, loveable person. They are more concerned with what they themselves think of the people they let into their lives, than what others are thinking of them.

Just some things to think about. We who are reading here can see that had you kicked his rump out after he told you all those horrible things...you would have expeerienced growth that you are not likely to experience now. You would have learned boundaries, who you are, how to tell if someone else is blowing smoke up your butt, etc.

And he would have had no choice but to rise to the occasion if he wanted to be with you again.

Your dark, confused, uncertainty would have been ended. You would have been dealing with something a whole lot healthier than what you are now.

Does that make sense? I almost hope that he fails, so you can experience what it feels like to be strong, confident, loveable...

And so that should you reconcile you will know that he is a changed man. You deserve that. And it's going to be hard now to ever know that about him, because you do not have the boundaries in place you need to have to even trust yourself.

And so you would see that regardless of the choices other people make, including the person you choose to be married to...you are responsible for spreading Gods light and love, especially to your children, and those whose happiness is affected by your own.

These are the blessings and responsibilities we have been given as adults...

And I believe that even in the Bible it says "protect your heart".

I don't mean to beat you up here...I want you find happiness. The kind of happiness that another person can not take away from us, at least not for very long.

I should have written all this before my last post where I told you to try and find some happiness this weekend. But I did sincerely mean it.

And yes you do have a right to choose not to decide right now...I think we all feel that you are making it hard on yourself to be able to say no later, though.

You're completely right, weaver, when you say that I have a problem in worrying about what other people are thinking. That's low self-esteem.

At this moment, I am fretting over what most here at MB are thinking of me.

Look, right now on MB I am between a rock and a hard place. If I tell you any ACTIONS that Mr. RLT is making to address his problems, I am perceived as defending him and enabling him.

If I utterly agree with everything you say, I'm expected to immediately kick him out to the curb.

Boundaries--we're in separate bedrooms. I am not doing a whole lot for him. I am not making his appts., etc.

I let him talk to me yesterday, and I get slammed. Believe it or not, I was pretty unemotional. I never cried, never LB'd, I pretty much just listened.

See, Mr. RLT is dammed if he do and dammed if he don't, too.
For post after post, everyone says nothing can happen until he is completely honest with me.

Then, he starts talking, and he's STILL not doing it right.

I know you think you already have, but please, give me a chance here, guys.

If this IS SA, then it's a whole new ball of wax.

No, it's not...it's a whole new excuse for his behavior.

And he said a long time ago he was being honest...he wasn't.
NOW, he admits that he isn't telling you everything...and yet you allow this to continue.
.
It is very sad to watch an abuser pull his victim back in for another round. I feel sorry for you at this point RLT. Your weakness for his bs is tearing you and your family up. Did you ever stop to think that your children would be better off living in a home filled with harmony and not the mess they have been residing in for all of their lives. Maybe your oldest would even come home if the liar left.

I for one will no longer enable this behavior. I have offered all that I can to you here...continuing is a waste of my time and energy if you are not interested in helping yourself. I will take the route that at least one other poster has done and step out of this. I cannot stand to see you self destruct any longer. I genuinely wish you well RLT.

I hear you. I think most of us here are more concerned with YOU than Mr. RLT.

At what point does the reversal start? Today? Tomorrow? I think it's already started for you and hopefully for him. Most of us want you to protect yourself from any more hurt.

I get that you love him and that you want your marriage. That you have hope. And that's your decision to make. Personally, I don't know if I could handle it b/c my DH (FWH) only had TWO affairs and it nearly destroyed us.

But if this is what you want, then, speaking for myself, I'll be here for you. I hope others will too.

This is what I'ma gonna do,

When I'm done posting here, I'm gonna take a shower. Then I'm gonna come back to my computer. I'm gonna turn on the classical music station. Then I'm gonna go to documents and open up my novel in progress, the one has been left on the back burner because of all this crap. And I'm just gonna write.

I'm not going on recovernation right now because I just don't feel like it. I don't have the energy, or the inclination right now.

I'm gonna take care of the kids, the animals, and myself.

thanks, princessmeggy

Sounds like a good plan to me.



I think a lot of you. That's why I keep thinking about your situation, I even went over it in length with my H last weekend...I was so worried we are being too hard on you.

I've been where you are, only for six years and not with my DD's dad... but I know the confusion and the desire to protect and to believe.

So I am going to keep on posting and saying what comes to my mind, unless you ask me not to.

I have already been supportive of you and guess what? You are still with him. So you have my support regardless...however I must call it as I see it. Actually, I've been holding back. LOL

RLT, I really feel for you in a big way. I woke up this morning thinking of your situation, and have prayed for you many times today. My prayer is that God will guide you through the decisions you must make. And yes I agree, you do not have to decide now. The horrible things you have learned appear to mostly be from long ago; there is no need to put yourself under the tremendous pressure of kicking him out this instant, unless you WANT to, then of course you have that right. The way I see it, you have lived in a hellish situation for quite some time, and you survived it. It appears that there is at least a CHANCE things are improving now; I sure don't see how they could be getting worse.
It does appear that some would give you you the ol' "damned if ya do, damned if ya don't", but RLT, please do not let a group of strangers on a message board make you feel any less about yourself and your decisions. This place is wonderful for giving a sense of community, and enabling you to see things from a different persepctive, but we do not live your life ; we do not know all the intricacies of why you may or may not need to save this marriage and exactly how you may best do that. There are no cookie-cutter answers in real marriages with real people with real imperfections.

The one thing I would say to you which is probably controversial, is that whether or not this is an addiction, you do not have to respond any differently. Personally I hate addiction excuses; I even hate to see someone call themselves a recovering alcholic when they have not had a drink in 30 years.I do not define people by their sin of choice nor by whatever "holic" they are "diagnosed" as. All of us are either choosing each day whether to sin or not to sin, and I would not let actions which I had long forsaken be my identity today.
If I used to smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day, but haven't smoked in 20 years, I am not a smoker nor will I introduce myself as a recovering smoker, but that is a rabbit trail.

My big thing is owning our actions, owning our choices. There are no excuses.

Whether Mr RLT has acted out sexually just because he could, or because he felt compelled by something seemingly chemistry-induced, in the end it is all the same. These actions have hurt you and you have the perfect right to choose what you will and will not accept in your life.
God bless you as you navigate this jungle. You are not alone.

weaver, I do truly appreciate your posts, and your deep concern for me and my family. And I welcome your continued posts. Thank you.

setfree, thank you also for your continued concern and for your prayers. I agree with you on addiction excuses. It doesn't really matter what you label it. The fact is, whatEVER it is, he is still hurting other people.

Every marriage is different, every dynamic, every situation, unique.

I'm not really responding any differently. The way some are posting, one would think that because he says, I'm a sex addict, that I am now holding his hand and walking him through it.

I'M NOT.

I told him last night this was his deal to walk through, and that he'd have to do it alone. I AM keeping my distance. And actually, I'm feeling pretty darn good about it right now, despite the criticisms I'm getting.

I dunno what else to say.

Good observation Setfree. It's really not about the addiction, it's about the present and future.

The real issue, is whether the bad behavior is recognized, something is being done about it, and it isn't repeated.

None of that stops the hurt from the past actions. Nor does it excuse them.

rlt,

You know I'm here for you whenever & in whatever form you need me to be. My H & I will continue to help both of you off the boards like we have been doing if that's what you & Mr. want. Still continuing to pray for both of you.

thanks, ST.

RLT, I haven't posted to you before, but you stay on my mind and on my heart. I have to reference the "twinkie" defence on this. In Steel Magnolia's a reference was made that the only thing that separates us from the animals is our ability to accesorize. Surely to God , not. This "ADDICTION" he has has to be addressed on his part, not incuded as a way of his life. I have arthritis and fibromyalgia, and as it is a way of life, I continue to seek out cures. He has got to enter into any program available to him to change his life style. He can't use any excuse for his unfaithfulness. He needs to give you a plan, as painful as it may be for him and stick to it.
I will pray for him and for your healing. Perhaps a 12 step program could work for him. The excuses have to stop. he does have to step up and decide what he really wants in his life. If it isn't you, let him know you will go on and have a happy life and find a man who can be faithful, and let him know what he has done to his kids. May God show you happiness and mercy to him.

Going Forward,

Thank you for this post.

I will pray for you tonight.

Thank you for your prayers. If I walk without a limp tomorrow, if my muscles don't ache, I will thank your in MY prayers. I will, anyway. My point is, if something will
cause you to suffer, you will do ANYTHING to stop the bleeding. Mr RLT, please, YOU are the only one who can stop your wife's pain. Please, in the name of "God, stop her pain! I am a hopeless cripple, but my H is now seeing my pain as something that God put on me. It is a fact of life, he sees how I cope with it daily. When I have good days, I am working at church, I am playing hymns, he sees that i am looking forward to my after life. And as a Christian, he knows that we will be together in eternity. So many people just go on just living in the 'FLESH" Mr. RLT is so much better than that. Mr. RLT, will you eat vomit or steak? This is your choice. A good woman's price is above rubies. Mr. RLT, can you say, " This is my beloved and this is my friend"? See her as your beloved...for your own sake. In Jesus' name I end this post.

RLT,

I am praying for you to find some peace and tranquility in your daily life.

I remember being where you are now. Granted our false recovery was very short lived (less than 2 months), I know that whirling, overwhelming feeling you are having.

I suggested that you have your H leave so that you could move past that feeling. I didn't realize how important that was until my H left on his own. After a few weeks of him being gone, my life became more tranquil and I could think more clearly. It is so much easier to see what needs to be done when WS is removed from our daily lives. Now I am able to formulate a plan that is healthy for me, that focuses on my needs and my recovery. This plan doesn't exclude him if he ever truly desires to return. But by removing him from the picture, healthy boundaries for me became much more obvious.

It still seems to me that this is what is in your best interest. But I am not you, and your H is not mine. I can only share what I have learned in my very short journey. I have peace again, my kids have peace again. We are laughing together again. NONE of us had that while WS was still in the home.

I certainly acknowledge that we each must follow our own paths, and I will "love you" through whatever path you choose, as I am sure most MBers will. We will be here for you, but our hearts break when we watch the agony you are in, and believe it could be relieved with a few tough, but simple, actions on your part.

(((((((((((RLT))))))))))))

I suggest that we take the focus off of WSofRLT - she can do NOTHING about him.

As a spouse of a man recovering from SA, the shift of power in our relationship came when I no longer cared if I was married to him - it came when I removed myself from the dynamic of having to fix him.

The toughest place for anyone to move to in their lives is a place of powerlessness. Yet, in the 12 step program, it is the first step to surrender to that feeling and recognition.

The polygraph will not solve anything as far as the relationship goes; the benefit at this point is one more reality check for RLT that her husband has been deceitful for so long that he has removed every honest bone from his body. A polygraph will not suddenly make him honest - so let's get real here.

RLT is reeling from all the advice - back and forth we go, pulling her one way or the other. When what she really needs to do is be still and get to know God and through His eyes, get to know herself.

Addictive personalities tend to gravitate toward children of addicts - because that is how their addiction is enabled. I don't believe MrRLT chose to court RLT because he consciously knew that she had grown up a certain way, but after the first date, he surely was drawn to her because in some sense he felt she'd clean up after him.

RLT is not going to find her personal power to stand up to his gaslighting, mind-control overnight. Shouting at her to push him out of her life only serves to continue the illness SHE has to recover from - which is listening to everyone else's opinion and trying to please everybody else - an impossible act on this bb or any other bb.

RLT is going to find her personal strength the same way every other spouse of an addict finds it - first by recognizing that they are powerless over the addict and their life has become unmanageable. Second, by recognizing that it will take a power greater than themselves to restore them to sanity and to save them from the wreckage. Third - they make a decision to turn their lives over to that power (God).

This takes time - RLT has a lifetime of trying to patch things up. Her healing starts as she walks away from that compulsion - this first step is the hardest because it's a lifetime of programming -

I wince at the impatience I read here; it's so easy to armchair quarterback this - while RLT is fighting the battle that right now, she doesn't even have the tools to fight - and those tools have to be grown from within her; this takes time.

I remember someone here who was much worse at enabling - and spent two years in solitary pain because she couldn't even verbalize the nature of her husband's behavior was this evil and she certainly didn't open up to us so we could understand the nature of what she was fighting and help her work on HER. RLT is at least facing that - stepping into COSA meetings, finding the appropriate recovery for herself - that is much more than I saw other BS do.

RLT - be patient with yourself and your circumstances. Let your discussions become more focused on changing that lifetime of appeasement and excusing/forgiving unrepentant behavior. You are in the hearts of many and there are many prayers being sent up for you.

Kayla,

Thank you for posting.

I am torn with the advice here. No one believes me, but I am trying. I can't change overnight. But I can get up each day and do the best I know how.

What everyone doesn't seem to get here is that this is all so shocking.

Mr. RLT is opening up. Probably not everything but truthfully the conversations are exhausting and I NEED a break from them sometimes. This is 30 years, 30 years of stuff that needs to be brought to light, and that isn't going to happen in one night's conversation.

I get blasted for listening to him. But I'm just listening. I'm not holding his hand over it. I'm not coddling him. I'm not trying to fix him. I'm just listening to him about what he has done, what he plans to do to fix his OWN self.

In the meantime I sit back and watch.

It's all I can do.

KA... I think you words are wise..but the caveat here is that her children are suffering as a result of all this stuff. She doesn't have the time to go through a long learning process because of them.
Also, the polygraph has nothing to do with honesty moving forward...it is a barometer of historical honesty.

I think the energy that is coming through everyone's posts is the encouragement that you NOT hinge your future on sitting back and watching - waiting on HIM.

I know you're not holding his hand anymore. Congratulations on that. I know you're no longer "buying in" to his words and plans. But you are still listening - and this is work he needs to be doing with God and a sponsor.

I know that this work is hard. But it's not significant to your recovery that your WS is opening up. Personally, I don't let my husband use me as his confessional - it's not my job to help him recover from his SA.

I realize that you're not ready to step away from "being there" listening to him and his plans. He needs to take this burden off of you - that is, if he's truly going to recover. If he's going to let you recover.

Frankly, if you think it's scary what he's facing now - just wait until you get healthy and mentally tough. Think tough like Orchid, or Pepperband - Neak, Melody Lane, Bugsmom - the kind of tough that says, I don't need to be married THAT badly anymore. The kind of tough that says to your WS's mouthpieces, before they can speak more vile spew - "click". The kind that can do a Plan B for six months - use an intermediary to filter relevant issues like child visitation issues through to you, and let their WS really face the demons within themselves instead of projecting the way WSofRLT has done to you. - to keep you locked in that dark place you've lived for several years now.

You will find healing in your own heart beginning the moment you step back - and let him work with God and others who he hasn't beaten down and can't beat down from confronting him about the ways he still deceives himself. This is not the job for a betrayed spouse.

You will be able to measure that healing in how you feel about your day - that it won't revolve around what he's going to say or do next - but on getting things done - caring for your children... I'm looking forward to that day for you. I hope it's today.

I really liked what someone said yesterday - that you need to heal sufficiently that 6 months or a year from now - you can be in a healthy, drama free life.

It starts with the first step.

So kayla, are you saying I don't need to hear all the crap he has done?

I thought he was supposed to tell me.

Otherwise, what's the point of the poly?

I am just so confused, more confused every day when I crawl out of the bed.

Everybody tells me something different, and I'm growing weary.

MEDC - you're right - the problem is that her children ARE suffering - and they are part of an addiction dynamic that will color the rest of their lives.

But one doesn't cure oneself of the cancer of co-dependency in an instant - this is years of mental programming that RLT is fighting. I've been there - done that - from my father's addiction to alcohol and the first ten years of my marriage.

After ten years of marriage, during which I was being programmed to accommodate addiction behaviors, it took me three years to grow to the point where I could just say, I don't need to be married THAT badly anymore. It took another FIVE years to get to the point where I could live without certain previously essential emotional needs being met while I let my husband deal with the loss of his manhood to his addiction. And now I get to watch as he recovers his manhood one agonizing step at a time - The last anniversary present (23 yrs now) that he gave me was more part of his authentic self than I have seen in 21 years... It's nice to have him coming back.

I didn't switch to healthy over night. And I had a young son who watched his parents have terrible battles. Now, 11 years later after the major battles ended, he's a healthy well adjusted young man who has seen people overcome the worst in themselves. He has a reference point for mental health that few children have who can take their healthy homes for granted. He's learning mental toughness skills that in another home, there's be no need to develop. He will be a great leader - husband - father - because of what he has learned from our sick, dysfunctional early years.

RLT is in the process of creating a legacy for her children. They will see her as she becomes strong - or stays beaten down. But they are learning life lessons none-the-less.

I learned from my mother's non-recovery. She's been married over 60 years; my dad quit beating her up in 1977; the verbal abuse still persisted as long as he drank - until 1991. They still have their code words to hurt each other. And she still responds from a place of PTSD - and severe depression.

This does not make it easy for me to have a reference point for healthy relationships. But God gives me that - and this is the gift my parents did give me - was a doorway to that faith. They didn't walk through that doorway for themselves.

Trust the process.

I know it's tough - there are as many opinions on what you should do as there are people.

I do know one thing - addicts get a release when they confess - like the guilt is off their shoulders - especially to someone they have brutalized mentally to the point where they don't get confrontation about their p*ssy, selfish, evil behavior. My husband's sponsor nixed that really quick - and so did my sponsor. I'm not his mother - I'm not the one to correct his bad behavior - that's the work for the psychiatrist, therapist, minister and sponsor to do.

I get to work my own program.

You already know in your heart you're not going to get the full truth - a polygraph will only tell you there is continued deception - not WHAT IS the truth.

Isn't there a subliminal expectation your WS has that if he confesses these evil things to you, that now it is YOUR job to forgive him?

And the mountain of forgiving you are expected to offer, without accountability - without action is just getting bigger and bigger.

That's why you're hurting with each subsequent revelation. I know there are some clamoring here for a polygraph. You have to do what is best for you. I think you need some space from it all. Just to quietly grieve and accept that you have no power here over WS - and turn him over to someone else (God).

or, in other words...ignorance is bliss.

A polygraph will tell her if she is living with someone that is continuing to abuse her.... and if he is that should be enough to say ENOUGH.

without the threat of a polygraph, this creep would still be hiding every single one of his lies.

And in the meantime...kids suffer long term damage...long term relationship issues that will follow them their entire lives...and no one is suggesting an over night cure. This situation has been going on a long time....and one child has already left home...others remain and will suffer...for who, for what?

all the addiction talk in the world doesn't for one second change a parents NUMBER ONE responsibility. Protect your children. Everything else is just talk.

MEDC - not ignorance is bliss - she already knows enough to legitimately have reason to withdraw from concerns about the marriage and focus entirely on healing.

Her husband has to walk the walk - stop talking the talk. She already knows he's deceived her and continues to deceiver her.

A polygraph serves as another validation of what she already knows - he's a liar and continues to deceive her. It will not tell her the truth.

the polygraph will be done. Papers were filled out and faxed yesterday. It's paid for. I just need to finish my question list and call the guy.

Medc, yes, the kids have been through he77. But, believe it or not, I have a great relationship with each one of them. I have been a SAHM for 18 years. I homeschooled for a time.

My boys are intelligent, resiliant, amazing people. Like I said, we have a great relationship, better than most mothers and son, I would say.

Yes, DS18 did move out, but let's face it, he was going to move out soon, anyway. No I did not want it under these circumstance, but then, MEDC, I did not cause it. DS18 comes over everyday. We talk. He's doing well, considering.

As for DD13, we spend A LOT of time together. She loves being in the kitchen, and so do I. Sometimes, we just bake and cook up fancy dinners all day long. Last weekend I took her with me to Colorado Springs and we just hung out and had a great time.

I'm doing the best I can, MEDC. Please don't beat me up. I love my kids more than anything.

RLT..if it helps you to demonize peoples intentions here, then continue to do so. I am not beating you up at all. I am holding a mirror up to what is really happening. Others have done the same...and you make comments like you are getting slammed for listening...baloney. You are shifting the blame for your confusion here to the board and certain posters when WE are trying to help you...it is the "man" you are living with that is victimizing you and your children every day. Trust me...he is loving the change in focus...all con men do.
It is very disturbing that many parents, you included, whose children are living in a nightmare situation minimize the impact on the kids. Alcoholics and their enablers frequently do it...as do abusers and their victims. It is sad and very, very off the mark. But ehen again, the real damage done by these monsters may not rear its head for years.

Abuse victims the world over recognize the tune you are singing....so, I will merely ask...when will enough be enough?

medc, it is not my intention to demonize you.

When I read through the first several pages of this thread, everyone is saying that Mr. RLT needs to come through with telling the truth, full transparency, etc., etc.

So the man starts to talk, albiet under the threat of a polygraph. But he starts to talk, and then I get berated at for even listening. And he is accused of continued lying.

I dunno, Medc. It just seems like a lose-lose situation. I'm NOT defending him. I'm NOT saying that he is, indeed, telling the truth, or another lie, one way or the other. It just seems that nothing he says, and nothing I do, is right.

Do you see my confusion here?

I know that you and a few others here will not be satisfied until I absolutely kick him out and divorce him.

Medc, part of my fear is having come from a broken home myself. When my dad left my mom, he left us in squalor. My mom couldn't handle it. I love her, but she was just unavailable, and we kids were left swimming in a world of uncertainty for a lot of years. We lived in junk house after junk house while my dad lived in a beautiful home in Marco Island, FL with his new wife and two new sons.

Ah, I'm rambling now. Medc, you don't know everything about me. You don't know where I come from. You don't know how difficult this is for me.

You've no idea, really.

Noodle wrote this:

"It doesn't MATTER if it is a "red herring" or if it is factually true that he is SA with all the bells and whistles.
The POINT is that it is being *used* as a manipulative tool."

Mr. RLT did not come to me and say, "I'm an SA. Wha Wha, therefore you must forgive me because I can't help myself."

I didn't run into his arms and say, "It's okay, honey, I understand now. You have a sickness and I will stand by you in this."

I did NOTHING of the sort. I sat and listened to a litany of things he has done. I also heard him say several times that it is not my fault, and that he is not using it as an excuse. (sorry if that sounds like I'm defending him.) I'm just telling you, verbatim, what he said. Do I believe it? Not necessarily. I don't believe much of anything he says these days. I can't.

I'm NOT sleeping with the man. I barely talk to him. I have nothing to say at the moment. He's gone most of the time, at one job or another.

I'm just curious, what else would the naysayers have me do?