EDITED TO ADD: ***Many posters have made this a 5 Star Thread. Hopefully it helps others as much as it's helped me. Ace***

Hey Life Choice and other MB posters,

I saw your statement on Rock Solid's thread this morning:


I agree with it but I struggle with that 'fine line difference' between being a supportive 'cheerleader' for my FWH (and others) and being an inadvertent enabler.

What are some examples that show positive encouraging verses negative enabling?

Thought I'd ask here to get ideas from all so I don't TJ Rock's thread. He needs alot of assistance, especially since it's the slow weekend.

Thanks,
Ace

[color:"red"]Edited to change sub-title periodically. [/color]

I've struggled with this quite a bit- not with my husband but with my brother, who has a mental illness.

I was a lifeguard and the first thing we learned was "don't make one victim into two." That means help... but don't put yourself in danger as well. This applies so well to other life situations.

support for significant others

This link explains the line I draw between being supportive and being enabling of my brother. It IS difficult, and so hard to watch when someone you love is in pain.

An enabler is someone who helps another BE BAD, a person who aides in their self destruction and PROTECTS them from the consequences of his actions. For example, a person who keeps the secret of an adulterer, which enables him to continue his affair. Or a person who calls in sick for her alcoholic husband because he is too hungover to go to work.

A real friend would help that person BE GOOD by exposing his affair and refusing to call in sick for the drunk.

A cheerleader is someone who helps someone BE GOOD and aides them in endeavors that are positive. For example, a person who cheers me on when I am training for a marathon.

The difference to me is whether the subject is positive or negative.

agree with Mel.

Interesting thread topic Ace.

Mel said
I think that puts it pretty succintly.

I do think that situations that have gone on for long periods of time with little or no change, as in Rock's situation, have a lot to do with the BS being unable to finally draw that line in the sand and say no more.

There are a lot of situations where support and encouragement yield positive results. However when you have gone on for a protracted period of time and being supportive has gotten you nothing but being walked on again and again, it's time for something different. Especially when there are kids who are being hurt in the process.

In Rock's situation I think some of the posters are possibly not aware of how long she has been behaving like this...and that she had indeed cut herself quite some time ago and she assured Rock then it would not happen again. Her potential alcoholism has been an issue for quite some time as well. All of this besides the infidelity, which has an extremely addictive nature to it, it is not that she falls in love with one man, she takes attention from whoever will give it.

If Rock came here last month as a newbie, my advice to him (as it was a long time ago) would be more along the lines of trying to support her and assist her with getting help.

Quite clearly that has failed to accomplish anything. Continuing to do nothing else is simply enabling her to have her cake and it eat it too, imo.

Again, good topic. I think this will be an enlightening thread.

The big question in my mind is WHY a person enables others? Do they do it because they want to be liked at any cost? Do they do it because they somehow don't comprehend that handing a gun to a suicidal person might not be good for that person? Or do they do it because its much easier to say what the person wants to hear and not risk their wrath because the enabler really doesn't give a damn? Or maybe they get some selfish personal payoff from it, such as: 'if I continue to give this bum narcotics, he will stay with me.'

I always wonder about the motivations of an enabler. Their actions serve EVIL and I wonder how many know this and just don't care?

People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck talks about enablers and the subject of evil. I will have to dig that out and dust it off again.

I agree 100%. I also view an enabler as someone who tries to fix things for someone who has no desire to actively participate in fixing things for themselves.

To me a cheerleader is someone who is showing support for someone who is actively trying and doing what it takes to help themselves.

IMO, it can be all of what you said or a combination of them. I also think for some it's the easy way. Sort of like a spouse of an alcoholic who runs to the store to buy beer so they don't have to deal with the alcoholic's attitude when they don't get to drink.

LC

Enablers enable for lots of reasons.

I generally find that the underlying cause is fear - fear of not being enough.

Thanks for the insights Mel, BR, LC, SR and Mazzy,


In addition to 'fear of not being enough' I've seen (and experienced) enablers operating for multiple reasons:

* Habit learned from growing up with enabling parents/family.

* Desire to please.

* Conflict avoidance personality.

* Fear of the unknown, desire to remain status quo.

* Unaware that it was destructive.

* Unwilling to pay the price of confrontation.

I don't have any solutions, just more questions. It could also be driven by similar WS fog (and even BS fog) that clouds judgement of cause/effect processes.

What else?

Ace

All of these are rooted in the fear of not being enough. These are ways that people react to that fear.

Interesting responses.

Would it be a stretch to say then, that the fear of not being enough is related to low self esteem? The cause of which would encompass a whole thread in and of itself.

Maybe not feeling they actually deserve better.

Maybe willing to settle for less then they deserve because they are afraid it's better than nothing, afraid of being alone, afraid no one else will want them...

and I agree with LC about it sometimes just being easier to give in and do it rather than deal with the fallout, like giving in to a tantruming toddler just to shut them up, you know it's wrong, you know it's not teaching them anything, but you want the fit in the middle of the store to stop.

I guess this is where you have to intellectually set your priorities (not react from stress or feelings). The most important thing is teaching your child appropriate behavior, regardless of how embarassing or annoying it is, there is a bigger payoff in the long run to do the right thing.

Mazzy

After reading this I'm an enabler. I don't want to be any more.

Me neither, mvg.

So what's the solution, BR et al?

How does one become an FEB (Former EnaBler)?

I am not enabling FWH anymore, which helped him earn his F after 4 D-Days. But I was enabling a friend. (She was there for me when I needed her, and I told her I'd be here for her on the condition that she stop certain behaviors that she is in denial about being destructive.) I'm looking forward to learning how to quit enabling, period.

Ace

Can you be more specific, Ace?

Sure, you've got mail.

For me enabling was a learned behavior.

I learned the art of enabling by growing up with and Alcoholic father.

As an adult you don't even realize you are doing it. When and if you do realize it you don't realize the depth to which it permiates your life/relationships.

I noticed that with the enabling comes codependance and conflict avoidance.

Did I have self esteem problems or low self worth? I don't think so.

I think I just didn't know any better so it was NORMAL in my world.

Cleaning up the mess of others.

One of the trickier situations is when an enabler runs up against enabling a person for the sake of the family group.
In a marriage this is difficult. If you enable a person to be fiscally irresponsible by paying the bills on time, you are enabling but if you don't it impacts everyone.

A person with an enabler is with them for a reason. They are an enabler that will fix their problems and mistakes or at least not hold them as accountable as a non enabling person.

Now I TRY not to enable but I know I do in some cases. One fine day though.... LOL

Hi Frog,

Thanks for your response:


I felt the same way, but I'm examining the 'fear' aspect BR mentioned.

Ace

frog,



This is an example where my trouble is with enabling. I have yet to find the real answer.

Do you let the family as a whole bear the consequences by not enabling the fiscal irresponsibility of the spouse, thereby becoming fiscally irresponsible yourself?

Or, do you be fiscally responsible yourself and continue to enable the spouse?

This to me is the "fine line" of enabling vs cheerleading. Those others to me are obvious, i.e. handing money/drugs/alcohol/free time to an addict. There's no fine line...it's a pretty thick, obvious line.

THIS question you raised is more along the line of my own thinking/actions concerning enabling. Thank you for bringing it up and articulating it so well.



AHA....

Fox

Update and a new aspect:


Ace

Change a few words (alcholic to abusive, etc) and boy do you hear my story. Throw in parental divorce, having to be responsible for younger siblings because of it, sexual molestation by family member as a child...no wonder I NEEDED to avoid conflict and my self esteem was/is off! And carry that forward as an adult. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Changing to be an un-enabler (is there such a word?) is the challenge!

How do you put the past hurts/wrongs in the past and become the strong person we all need to be?

The way I did it was to put past hurts/wrongs in the past and stop picking the wound. I had to accept that I was a big girl now and was fully responsible for my own happiness as an adult. No more looking back and blaming others for my shortcomings. No more self pity. All that self pity was just a diversion so I wouldn't have to look honestly at myself.

I became strong by stopping enabling and by taking decisive action when appropriate. Conflict avoidance keeps a person weak and vulnerable because it sends the message that I can't take care of myself. Strength comes FROM action, not the other way around. I also think that enablers seek approval outside of themselves, much like a teenager, which keeps them on a treadmill that goes nowhere and leads only to frustration.

That was me to a tee. XH still can't pay his bills on time that I know of (well at least not until recently - I haven't got a NSF notice at the house for a while but I used to get several of those and collection notices every month). During the M, I managed all of this for the better of the family.

If not for me doing this, we'd never have been able to buy a house, save any money, open a business...

I suppose I don't regret that much, but it wasn't right that I felt I "had" to do this.

It is a fine line indeed.

The statement that these people are with enablers for a *reason* is quite enlightening. VERY enlightening.

Thank you!

JinGA

Thanks!
Ace

MVG....Ok I will throw those in. Dad was abusive and my parents were D'd as well. LOL Thanks for making me throw those in. LOL.

Jinga....A person that needs an enabler finds an enabler. A selfish person that doesn't want to be responsible will find someone who will be as their partner. It is the Yin and the Yang. The whole opposites attract thing. Just in a much more unhealthy manner.

Ace... I would then say that as far as EN's are concerned that Admiration, and Appreciation would be two top needs but is that unhealthy. To look for outside validation of your accomplishments?

IMVHO the best way to stop being an enabler is to end the relationships you have that you are an enabler.

I have found that in most realationships that I have stopped enabling the other person, it usually slowly dies.

If you can't do that then you need to ween the other person off of your enabling behavior.

It isn't easy.... the other person will resist... Tell you that you have changed... You are not as "Nice" as you used to be... But as you continue to tell them You Broke It.. You Fix it, they will understand that you won't fix it anymore.

One caveat don't say that unless you are willing to move forward with it never getting fixed....

Hey Frog & Melody, Thanks! It's hard to see yourself as an enabler when you are trying so hard to just be the "good guy". And Frog you're so right, they don't like the not so nice person now! But it's such a lighter load to carry truly what is only yours to carry.

Melody, I don't know that I can totally accept your perspective, however I do see there is a time for the past to be the past and move on.

I AGREE!!!

Ace

I've seen some interesting things on this thread. I more or less get the point the enabling is when you are assisting someone in doing something destructive, and being a cheerleader is supporting someone in doing something positive.

But I don't find it as simple as that.

I've struggled immensely in my M with this "fine line". Or the "happy medium" if you want to call it that. IME, what makes this confusing is that most times an action one takes can't be defined as supporting or enabling based solely on that action. As an example, I was always supportive of my WW's career. The actions or what I did in being supportive of her career never changed. But somehow, many years ago the result changed from being supportive to being enabling. The same activity was good for my M for many years, then became destructive.

Some of the other examples people have described I think of as the "greater good" dilema. You act in a way that covers for one person and for a time it is supportive. But somehow over time it becomes enabling.

I've pondered both of these and considered that the solution must lie in being able to accurately predict will someone use/recieve your actions in a supporting or enabling way.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to develop those accurate predictions.

Not sure that's always true.

People born into families where enabling is endemic, grow up thinking that what they're doing is supportive and good, and see themselves as selfish if they refuse to 'help', 'rally round', 'stick together', etc. The family reacts with such hurt and anger if a member refuses to conform to family 'values', a child automatically sees such non-conformist behaviour as bad. They think well of themselves if they conform.

And, of course, such a child takes the same enabling behaviour and expectations into other relationships. It's only when the enabling leads to disaster that they have any reason to look at their own contribution to the crisis.

TA

TA exactly right for me. I had no fear that I can identify as to why I enabled. I just learned that was how to deal with interpersonal relationships.

After I figured it out I looked back at past relationships and there it was the whole time.

When I look back at my M there it was all the time.

I do think that enabling is a learned behavior. Some may learn it because of their fear. Possibly the fear of losing that person or being alone?

Interesting. In my situation, for example, I managed the household finances because I was good at it - and XH was content to let me do so. After a while, it became a burden as he was complaining about money (that there wasn't any), and I was trying to show him where it all went... and he wasn't interested.

I guess at that point or somewhere in there, it went from doing my part to, "enabling". When I was taking extra jobs on the side to make ends meet, and he was complaining that I was never home... and didn't want to hear that his finding a better paying job or taking on other work too, would have eased the situation - THEN it was definitely enabling.

The irony is it came back to bite me in the butt...

Yep it's one thing to 'job share' in a marriage when one person is good at something or prefers to do it - it's another thing when it's cast upon them or when that one partner feels compelled to do it 'or else'.... or else risk cleaning up the other person's mess.

Is the difference between an enabler and a co-dependent this?...

An enabler feels compelled to clean up the other person's mess, thus making it easy/enabling the other person to keep making messes...

A co-dependent feels that they *must* do this or that, regardless of the other person's ability to do it themselves? In other words, if I looked after the finances because I felt I must, even though XH could have done it himself willingly, would that make me co-dependent? Seeking another's approval or feeling that I *had* to take care of them?

Learning lots from this thread.

JinGA

Don't they go hand in hand?

For me I am a codependant, enabler with conflict avoidence issues.

The irony for me is that once you try to quit enabling in this kind of sitch you become percieved as nagging or a control freak.

FWIW - I've always viewed codependent is being someone who derives their self worth from the success or well being of another. In that sense, I would view more as people who are codependent are more like to cross the line between support and enabling.

That is why I think each case is a little different. I did the finances and still do.

The enabler let the FWW spend money and then went about fixing the problem. IF the FWW wanted something and I said we couldn't afford it I was accused of being controlling. So I gave in, conflict avoidence. It was a horrible cycle.

Now I do the finances with the understanding I am not being controlling. I am not sayin no she can't buy this that or the next thing. THE BANK is. We also have the understandign that at any point she can take over ALL of the responsibilities of finances at any time she would like to.

So far she likes me being in control of the finances. Since I am better at it.

No more fights over me checking the accounts on a regular basis and asking about a debit from the accounts.

Since this understanding has gone into full effect we are getting very close to being debt free.

We would actually be there but I needed a car and I rufused to finance it so that was a chunk of change I didn't expect.

Now I simplified the process we fought a lot about it. No POJA on this one. So at the same time I was trying to deal with my enabling I had to deal with my Conflict Avoidance.

Frog,

Would you consider CA a big part of enabling? Could fear of conflict be one of the fears being investigated?

LA

There's a lot of grey areas that I can see.

I think women become co-dependents and enablers by conditioning to a point - we're taught to nurture and take care of others... and that may be well and good but when it crosses that imaginary line, it becomes destructive.

I wasn't a conflict avoider, per se. I don't like conflict (does anybody? Wait - I have a friend that picks a fight with her H at every opportunity!)... but I'm not afraid of it and I'm not afraid of negotiating - and reading about POJA and enacting it has been very empowering.

My XH was a conflict avoider, big time. He'd deny there was anything to talk about, avoid talking about it, tell me he wasn't in the mood to talk about it and just procrastinate the issue until (he hoped) it blew over. Not a good way to settle things, in fact that probably "helped" me blow up more times than I ever needed to.

I don't blow up anymore. I can negotiate. I can set boundaries and stick to them, and I can surround myself with people capable of taking care of their own junk, and when our junk intertwines, I/we can figure out the best way to do things that's enthusiastically embraced by those concerned.

Hey... I'm learning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is interesting though how these personality types do tend to attract one another, and feed off one another. Learning lots about where I've been in this thread - and a lot about where I'm going <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JinGA

Good catch.

Yes CA is a big part of enabling, at least for me.

Part of my enabling wasn't calling my FWW on BS. To expand if she said well it will be fine because I will ..... Even if .......was a bunch of crap and I knew she wouldn't do it! I avoided going any further. In essence I would be calling her a liar if I questioned her. This enabled her to make decesions based on future actions, on her part, that she wasn't going to do and I just stopped there. Pretty much knowing that if it turned out bad that was ok with her because I would pick up the pieces.

Now she will try that and I say nope. So by not worrying about the conflict that may arise I can enable my self not to enable her.

The hardest part is I enabled her to continually make bad decesions because I dealt with the consequences.

I'm checking into that, too, TA. It may be a concept that has different applications.

Thanks,
Ace

P.S. Rprynne....good to see you back. You posted on one of my early threads and I truly appreciated it, even if I can't recall on which thread....may have been about dumping triggers.

But TA....this is where the fear is learned. You described the environment where this fear becomes reality perfectly.

I learned to enable in a very similiar environment.

But the message I received, the lesson I learned, was that taking care of me was selfish, enabling (which is really an aspect of controlling) others was virtuous.

When enablers don't achieve the results expected - the resulting blow to self is very deep. Resentment and anger grows, along with a belief that if I was really good enough, if I had just done things better...the outcome would have been what I desired.

The enabler (controller) mistakenly believes that he or she has far more power and influence over situations and people than he or she really has. So...with all that imagined power...when the outcome doesn't match the desired objective...it becomes the enabler's failure.

If I had just been good enough...if I was a better person...if I was prettier...if I was funnier...everything would have worked out!

Martyrs...are enablers. They do far more than their share of the work - unselfish, virtuous in their own eyes. But when others take them for granted and simply take advantage...the martyr doesn't say: It was my choice to do all of that work, but next time, I'll simply take care of my responsibility.

The martyr (enabler, controller) says: I worked SO HARD so EVERYONE ELSE could have a good time and NO ONE APPRECIATED ME....those selfish jerks...next time I'll show them...I won't lift a finger and then they'll SEE how wonderful I was...THEN they'll be sorry...

Or if the enabler is really messed up...like I was...all that anger and resentment is suppressed (must be GOOD at all times and ANGER is bad)...

But in either situation...

All along a little voice is whispering...if you were better, you would have been appreciated....

Btw, I don't think enabling is such a gray area. It is only really unclear when you are an unreformed enabler!

For example.

When my husband begged me to come home...I said yes after about a month of his demonstrating 100% effort and transparency.

My brother..who is a recovered alcoholic...had only been in the program for a few months.

Knowing my husband is an alcoholic, he called me and said: How can you let him come home, you are NOT letting him experience consequences!!!!

I said then, and I'll say it now to anyone wondering if they should take an action that enables....

*MY* responsibility is to myself and to my children. Their well being is FIRST. *MY* responsibility is NOT to enforce consequences on my husband...he is NOT my child.

So, I fulfill my obligations and take care of my children and my family as a whole. I have to do those things no matter what....even if it means that my husband is sometimes more comfortable.

So if a spouse doesn't pay the electric bill and your children are going to be without heat and electricity...you pay the bill. If your spouse doesn't pay the mortgage...you pay the mortgage...you don't let yourself and your kids be evicted and your credit ruined.

That is not enabling. Thats called taking care of what is YOURs to take care of.

Now what is also my responsibility, should I ever find myself in the above situation, is to go get the family resources that were withheld...which also means going to court...where consequences will happen. But the motivation is NOT to teach the other person a lesson. The motivation is to be a good protector, a good parent.

If my husband says he'll pick up my daughter from the bus every day at 3:15 and does not...my daughter is in danger. My obligation is NOT to force consequences to happen to him - the angry school calling to reprimand him, and fine us, and suspend her from the bus....my obligation is to make sure she is SAFE and retrieved from the bus every day. So I make arrangements with the other ladies at the busstop to collect my daughter, rather than risk her getting off the bus and being left alone on the street. Yes, it makes my husband's life easier. But my job is not to fix him, my job is to take care of my daughter.

(my husband does not do this btw, its just early and the only mundane thing I can think of).

It is the nature of a controlling enabler to fret about the consequences someone else might be avoiding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is simple. I draw a circle around my feet. Anything inside is mine to care for the best way I can, even if it means that someone else benefits when they should not.

Everything else outside of the circle...well as long as I am inside...I can't interfere with natural life consequences happening to others in all other situations. I have to trust that God will take care of the consequences for everyone else, as long as I am doing what I need to do for my own stuff.

Mind your own business is the MOST POWERFUL lesson an enabler can learn.

BrambleRose, I don't think it's necessarily true that an enabler feels like a martyr, and builds resentment as you describe. I think that's more of a personal characteristic of the enabler, wherever their enabling behaviour comes from.

I think that there's an important difference between enabling because you've been raised to believe it's a virtue, and enabling because it's the only way you can find to manage an uncomfortable situation.

The end result is possibly the same. The difference is in where you have to look to spot your own enabling.

Someone who does not come from background of enabling may find themselves in a position where the only way they can think of to maintain marital cohesion is to enable. As in...if a husband is alcoholic and the wife finds excuses to avoid social obligations, covering up the fact that the husband is too drunk or hungover to go...then she's enabling his alcoholism in order to 'protect' the family. She may, as you describe, see herself as a martyr and build resentment - but she may not. Waking up to her own enabling, for her, will be about acknowledging her own fears and cowardice. She will have to face the fact that her actions are actually selfish.

On the other hand, someone who has been raised to believe that she is selfish unless she enables, has a different problem to recognise. In covering up for her alcoholic husband, it's likely that she does not feel like a martyr, but a heroine. The more she sacrifices, the more 'good' a person she may feel. This is likely to be the person who earns the co-dependent label most easily, because she needs the other to be defective in order to earn good feelings about herself. For her, the path to enlightenment is much tougher, because it means rejecting much of what she has been taught about goodness since she was a baby - and possibly leading to her being jettisoned by her family of origin.

For one of these women, enabling is crisis management. The fear is of humiliation and failure. For the other, enabling is a religion and failing to enable is a SIN. The fear is of God's condemnation.

The second of these will be very much harder for the enabler to recognise and change.

TA

I feel like I'm on the edge of a "Now I get it" precipice!" and I am anticipating finally falling into ONE of our major dysfuctional solutions.

I am learning so much....thanks TA and BR (and Frog and LA and others) for expanded ideas to help me and hopefully many more find solid solutions with life-impacting results.

LA has hammered (said with a grateful smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) many of these ideas to me, but it takes awhile to permeate solid ingraining of one's environmental conditioning.

THOUGHTS.....what a disaster they can produce.......and what a major tool of recovery. EVERY affair starts with Wrong Thinking. I'm so grateful that such thinking can be changed. That's why I (and probably most) are here on MB.

Thank you MB Veterans for hanging around to be such a huge part of this potential solution. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ace

(((((Acey)))))

Hugs to you Ace!

Hi FH,

Thanks for the hug (and for poppin' back on the boards!!!!) Missed ya! You've helped me tremendously, too...thanks for being patient. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Could this be the record for the shortest FH post on MB? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Acey

I have yet to meet an enabler who does not have stuffed resentment. Maybe there is such a creature - but I believe, just like the script of the affair - enabling has its own script. Details may be different, but the behaviors and emotions are not unique.

Enablers enable with expectations that are rarely fulfilled. This causes incredible anger.


Yes, well I was raised to believe it was a virtue. I was taught that it was my moral obligation to interfere with other people and to sacrifice for others.

The golden rule in my home was: Always do unto others before and better than you do unto yourself. Oh and if you see anyone 'sinning' you must stop them.

The result was incredible anger that took me years to work through. I felt unappreciated, worthless, I knew I was a failure...because no matter how much I covered up, sacrificed and controlled....my life was still out of control and no one thought I was a good person.

Learning to enable in my childhood home meant that I was a prime candidate for seeking and marrying an alcoholic husband.

Which left me in the second position you describe.

I've done both and I can tell you that in my experience...both "sources" of behaviors are rooted in fear.

Everything you have described is fear. Fear of being seen as less. Fear of being less. Selfishness (covering up for the drinker) driven by fear (of being seen as less by others). Controlling (arrogance and selfishness) driving by fear (of a bad outcome - such as someone seeing the real situation or fear of an unamed disaster). All of it is fear.


I sincerely don't believe this.


Having done both I can tell you that it is not so black and white. It is far more complex and yet so much more simple.

Whether it is either learned as a virtue or as a coping mechanism, it is from the same source.

Fear of sinning, fear of failing, fear of humiliation - these are ALL facets of Fear of Not Being Enough.

BrambleRose, there is such a creature, surely?

YOU.

As I understand it, you have made a choice to sustain a marriage with an active alcoholic, having judged that it is better for your children to have a two-parent family, even where one is an addict, than to disrupt their lives with a broken marriage.

It seems to me that you have consciously chosen to enable your husband to act destructively, in order to preserve what you see as the security of your family.

You enable him by absorbing the consequences of his addiction such that their effect on the children is minimised, and by accepting as your task, rather than his, the monitoring of his level of destructiveness.

But I don't believe you feel resentful about that. It's your conscious choice, and you have accepted the burden. You don't feel like a martyr. Yet you are enabling him.

Don't you think that others might have reached the same no-resentment accommodation?


Do you honestly feel that fear of sinning and fear of humiliation arise from the same psychological place for everyone?

Unless you view God as the Great Punisher, then fear of sinning arises from your conscience, from all that is best and most compassionate in you. Sinning is about the sadness of letting God down by failing to be as good a person as you would like to be for Him.

Of course, many view sinning as doing something that will get you punished by an angry God, in which case fear of God and fear of other people are pretty much the same thing.

There are many who genuinely believe that they are acting compassionately when they offer false alibis to rescue their child from prosecution, or tell friends that their mother has a recurring illness when in fact she is addicted to drugs, or welcome their son's mistress into their home and fail to tell their son's wife, or constantly bail their daughter out of financial crisis, or borrow money to cover up Dad's gambling debts.

Some of the people who do this may feel resentment, because they expect some kind of return on investment that they don't get, but from my experience there are many people who happily sacrifice till the end of their lives. They are 'addicted' to the sense of themselves as good people, and their enabling behaviour feeds that addiction no matter what the response they get from the other. They genuinely believe they are acting lovingly.

When your family gives the same moral weight to things such as
- it's wrong to tell lies;
- it's wrong to hurt your father by telling your teacher that he touches you inappropriately;
- it's wrong to steal;
- it's right to bail your brother out financially when he's in debt yet again

and so on, it's hard for a child to discriminate between the right messages and the wrong. So they tend to accept them all as right.

When you enable out of fear of humiliation, you're telling a lie to yourself. When you've been trained to enable by your family, you're being honest with yourself, but you've been made to believe a lie by others.

Accepting responsibility for your own lie is a different task from accepting that you've been deceived by people you love and trust.

TA

This is the premise I'm intrigued about also.

Ace

TA, BR, others:



Still wondering. It seems that this very concept (not all think from the same perspective) could single-handedly produce (or reform) an enabler.....or NOT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
Ace

hey ace, i haven't forgotten to respond...I've just been overwhelmed with some family events and work. I'll get to this in a day or so I hope.

Ace,

No response from me because I don't agree with the statement.

I am not an overly religious person. So I don't have a great fear of sinning therefore I don't think it comes from the same place as my fear of humiliation.

I think of sins more as a moral compass. I am not afraid to sin for the religious reason. I am not afraid to sin at all. I do have a moral compass that says it is not ok to Kill or steal or comitt adultry.

To me I don't do these things for a variety of reasons. I don't want to go to Jail being one of them.

This comes from a different place then humiliation.

Again for me as an enabler it wasnt' fear that caused my enabling.

IT WAS what I learned. It WAS my reality. It is no different then a non enabler having a normal view which is their reality.

If you grow up in a family where FARTING is ok you will go out into the world and fart with no embarassment. If you grow up in a family where Farting is done in the bathroom with the fan on that is what you will do. It is just what you learn.

The answer is unlearning the behavior.

hey Frog...thanks for your response...


I tend to agree that environment plays a larger role in what behavior is acceptable or unacceptable...especially when both behaviors are learned.

The larger question, however, might be how does one motivate another to WANT to unlearn a behavior perceived to be negative by some but "just what mama did" by another?

For example, I loved my Dad. He loved to fish. I thought fishing was boring. I did not like to fish because I learned at an early age to perceive it as boring.

Forty years later......

My H had an EA.....much of his EA was when he was fishing. Instead of making him quit fishing, I decided that I wanted to WANT to go fishing with him.

I asked Mark to help me and he started the "Let's go Fishing" thread on the recreation forum. Now I WANT to go fishing with my FWH. We did. I caught a fish and nearly went nuts! I want to do it again....because I chose to WANT to WANT to go.

Why?

My desire to improve our RC (and ultimately our M) overrode my perceived learned impression that fishing was boring so I would not like it.

Not a real good example of enabling, but the best I could do. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Ace

I don't know that anyone can motivate someone to unlearn it.

The motivation has to come from within after recognizing the learned behavior is "wrong".(for lack of a better term)

I can tell someone all day everyday that their action is "wrong" they can disagree with me and continue on. I can find books and reference material but if they still don't beleive me they will continue.

If at one point they realize the learned behavior is "wrong" then there is a chance.

Some behaviors are deeply entrenched. I am fighting still to unlearn this behavior. It isn't easy.

My FWW and I are having a really tough time because I am not enabling her. Other reasons too but that is a big one.

The main thing to remember is if you are enabling you are not just fighting yourself you are fighting the person you have been enabling.

They like enablers it is a shock when you don't want to be that person anymore.

Hey Frog,



Never really thought about this. Yikes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Ace,


This is the wrong direction.

The minute you start trying to figure out how to change what someone "wants, thinks, or believes" you've stepped across the boundary of that person's self.

People want what they want. If someone wants to be enabled — that's what they want. It doesn't mean that's what they'll GET, of course. For example... I've wanted a pony for years and I still don't have one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The key isn't to try to shuffle around what your partner wants.. it's to learn to negotiate so that your partner is enthusiastic about doing things he doesn't necessarily "want" to do in exchange for something he feels has greater or equal value. In this process -- you have to accept that he's doing <whatever> out of a sense of partnership/sharing/desire to get his own needs met and RESPECT that. He may never want to do <whatever> it is... but he enthusiastically willing because you do <whatever you do> and he wants that more than he doesn't want to do the other thing.

Part of a co-dependent personality is wanting everyone to "like you" or "agree with you" or "not be bothered by you", etc. When you learn that it's OK to want something even though it's an inconvenience because you're worthy and willing to compensate .. then you move away from the codependent/enabler/controller type of relationship and towards a true partnership.

That's what POJA is for .. and why it's so important. It allows two people who want different things to figure out a way to learn to live together and be happy.

Mys

Hi Mys,

Thanks for making time and effort to post in the midst of your hectic schedule:


My FWH is making such an effort in his willingness to help me heal and our M recover, that I want to do things to make him happy, too....like fishing. This does make sense.


We are progessing towards this but are not there yet. I do see what you mean.

Do you think fear is the reason for (or related in any way to) these enabler/controller/codependent behaviors?

Ace

Ace,


It probably depends on the time and the person. I grew up in a family that taught me these behaviors through abuse and dysfunction. By the time I got married, these things were habitual with me.

So, I still did them for a few years until I gradually quit. Well, I still wig out occasionally and go on a control spree but I try to limit that.

Anyway, at some point, I think they just become a habit. An engrained way that you manage and deal with the world. I think fear/anxiety comes in to play when you start trying to extricate yourself from these behaviors because it's hard to let go of what you think you are controlling.

In reality, of course, you'll find out you never really had control the whole time. It was the illusion of it that comforted you -- and possibly others (or at least made their lives easier so why complain).

Mys

Ace,

I think the bottom line about this type of behavior and the problems it causes all around is that it's not reality based behavior. The reality is that lots of things about your life (I'm speaking in the generic you) that are out of your control. People who enable/control/co-dependent try to create the illusion that they have more control over their own lives and what's going on around them than they actually do.

That works as long as everyone else plays along. When someone steps out of the dance, the person goes into a tail spin trying to figure out what s/he did wrong and how to fix it. Sometimes this manifests as guilty driven behavior "I must be defective" and sometimes it manifests as anger driven behavior "What's wrong with YOU and why aren't YOU acting the way I expect you to?"

Most of the time you see both.. with the enabler on one end and the enabled on the other. Both sides struggle to re-achieve the illusion and reassert the roles. Then, things wobble along again until the next time.

Living in reality means having to accept that life is messy a lot of time. People do things that you don't like and sometimes people are unhappy and you can't cheer them up. Sometimes people are even unhappy with YOU (that's an uncomfortable thought for most co-dependents). Anger, frustration, annoyance, aren't the end of a relationship or even the hallmark of a bad one unless it is always going on. And, I generally see more of the perpetual anger/resentment in co-dependent relationships, anyway.

A certain amount of conflict is necessary for a relationship.

Mys

For me, coming to gripes with Worth and Deserving are HARD. I've never felt I was worth anything unless I was the giver, never the taker. I also NEVER realized or thought I deserved good things. Sure was glad I got them, but never because I was worth deserving them, just coincidence.

How do you work thru realizing you do have a worth and deserve love/respect/etc.?

No easy answer here. I'm still working on it. I have terrible problems with self esteem/self worth. I'm in IC.


Mys

Ohhhh MVG,

((((((((mvg))))))))

I see by your timeline that you are in my shoes a year later. I'll have to check out your story....is it on one thread you can link? If not, I'll dig later.

I have the same 'self-disrespect' as you do but I know where it came from.


Here's what's working for me. To preface, we are in MC and sometimes I wish I was in IC, too......with our MC, but that's not gonna happen. (I do have free IC through work, but I don't want to have to go through the process again.)

My mother ingrained an 'inferiority complex' in all of us kids due to her circumstances....it's what she knew and she did the best she could.

It created a drive in me to succeed and prove her wrong. I married out of fear (thought I'd be left behind) and the ensuing 30 years of detachment reinforced my perception that I was unworthy of happiness. (My bad choices didn't help either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />)

Fast forward to H's 6 month EA and his need to be confronted....not once, twice, thrice, but 4 times. That'll set one's self-esteem back a few notches.

Anyhow, back to what I do to overcome this:

I picture the impact that one act of my kindness has made on one other person, and how that might multiply to affect others positively. Seeing It's a Wonderful Life repeatedly helped me see that this would help me. Have you seen it?

When feelings of despair and worthlessness overcome me, I grab onto to ONE thing that I did to make a positive impact....and it usually snowballs and overtakes those negative thoughts.

When I nearly committed suicide by slamming my car into a concrete bridge abutment, an angel must have flashed the faces of my DS and DD and BF and Jesus before my eyes in time for me to slow down and swerve. Not only could I not do that to them, but they reminded me of the good things my life has represented.

But I'm still an enabler trying to reform because of my learned behavior...I think. BR said she'd return when she can to elaborate on the 'fear factor' LOL.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> of enabling and controlling. I'm looking forward to that.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Ace

late to the party again...sorry, it was a very rough week.


No...I am not an enabler in this case.

Enabling is all about motivations and expectations.

Enablers attempt to control outcomes, to force solutions, to impact another person's behavior to suit themselves.

I have long ago let go of my husband's disease and left it to him and God. It's not my job to see to it that he has consequences. It's my job to take care of my responsibilities...no one else's.

Yes, I am sure there are alot of people that think that because I choose to stay, even for the purest of motives, that it is enabling because my husband does not experience the loss of his family as a result of his drinking.

But that very point of view is an enabler's point of view. I can not go through my life making choices based on consequences that *I* deem are appropriate for other people. I can only make choices for my own life and responsibilities, and live my own life with integrity.

My husband, and the consequences or lack thereof....are left to God.

As for the whole fear thing...

I don't really get all the distinctions being discussed here.

It's simple to me.

Whether it is from fear of sinning (not being good enough for God) or fear of humiliation (fear of others seeing that you are not good enough) or lack of self esteem (fear that one is not good enough) - its all fear.

I am sure that one can learn enabling as a habit because everyone does it. But I would challenge a "habitual enabler" to look beyond the behavior to the truths learned underlying that habit. And I will be willing to bet...that truth is the old nasty fear raising its head again.

Enablers are controllers. Controlling is a response to fear.


By acting as if.

Fake it til you make it.

Courage is not a lack of fear.

Courage is acting in the face of fear.

So if you are afraid that you are not worthy or deserving you simply ignore the fear and act with love and respect to yourself, and ask for what you deserve.

Before you know it, self-worth and self-respect will become your new habit, with an underlying truth that believes you ARE enough.

BR, I recognise that you don't.

I also think that you're rolling 'enabling' and 'controlling' into the same idea, because the concept of non-controlling enabling is perhaps alien to you.



I'd define 'enabling' as 'habitually doing things for someone else that allows them to avoid the consequences of their own inaction'. Note that I say 'that allows them', rather than 'in order to allow them'. Why a person would act that way is the crux of the argument here.


Can I run a few scenarios past you?

Scenario 1: You're driving home and notice the car is low on fuel. Your spouse needs the car first thing in the morning. You could a) tell your spouse about the situation so that they can leave in time to fill the car themselves, or b) fill the car yourself since you've got time. Would you see option b as kind and loving, or enabling?

Scenario 2) Your spouse arrives home from work dripping with flu. You pack him/her off to bed, take cups of hot lemon upstairs, phone round to cancel his/her social engagements, and perform the spouse's household tasks by yourself for a few days. The spouse is ill but not terminal; they could just about have medicated themselves and made the calls. Are your actions a) tender and loving or b) enabling?

In many families the (a) actions are seen as loving and supportive. The people who act in this way are doing it from what they feel to be a deep sense of compassion and tenderness. The family culture sees it as a responsibility to 'do for' each other as an act of love, and to offer protection to a temporarily vulnerable member.

Do you see such behaviour as healthy or unhealthy?

If you can accept that many families behave in this way, from a sense that it is good and right to protect family members, then consider this scenario...

Scenario 3: your spouse comes home blind drunk. You pack him off to bed, bring him glasses of water, do his household tasks and phone his employer the next day to say that he's got flu.

Now, this clearly crosses a line, of allowing the spouse to avoid the consequences of his own lack of self-discipline. But for many people, Scenario 2 and Scenario 3 will be essentially the same thing. They will have been habituated to accept that drunkenness is standard behaviour for men in the family, and that it is an inevitable consequence of necessary social situations. Caring tenderly for the family member, and protecting him from the outside world, is as good and supportive a thing to do as it would be if he had flu.

Can you see that, for many people, enabling is done from a place of love, as they have been taught to understand love by their family? They are not seeking to control the situation, but to obey an inner urge towards 'goodness'. Enablers are not always controllers.


If something has been built into your conscience as a good thing to do - pure and pleasing to God - then challenging that seems pretty much the same thing to me as challenging your sense that murder is wrong and bad, that adultery is wrong and bad, that honesty is right and good, that respecting others is right and good. Challenging the belief that it is right and good to support family members is like persuading yourself that it's OK to whip your children.

If you're going to challenge your ingrained habit of 'beneficial enabling', it's not initially about confronting fear. It's about rebuilding your conscience from the ground up, asking yourself deep questions about the concepts of right and wrong, getting to grips with the concept of boundaries. It's only as you begin to recognise that your emerging understanding is in conflict with your family's values that fear arises. And at that point you do have to make a decision about whether you face that fear or not.

From the point of view of someone looking to see whether they're enabling or not, they might look for the places where they feel a strong sense of anxiety, of fear of specific outcomes - those are likely to be the places where they're controlling-enabling. But for a 'beneficial enabler', there may be no such anxieties. It's not fear of outcome that hangs over their lives. For these people, their enabling behaviours are likely to manifest as a feeling of helplessness and paralysis, because they're trained to behave in ways that perpetuate poor outcomes.

I've answered this at such length because it worries me immensely that readers may be brought to believe that any enabling behaviour they identify in themselves, is inevitably down to avoidance of unwanted personal consequences. They may search forever for what it is they're 'avoiding' - and come up with spurious and wrong diagnoses - when what they really need to look at is the DNA of their basic belief system. That's a much harder task. Breaking free of family values is very much tougher than acknowledging personal weakness.

TA

By acting as if.
Fake it til you make it.
Courage is not a lack of fear.
Courage is acting in the face of fear.

So if you are afraid that you are not worthy or deserving you simply ignore the fear and act with love and respect to yourself, and ask for what you deserve.

Before you know it, self-worth and self-respect will become your new habit, with an underlying truth that believes you ARE enough. [/quote]

I agree with most of what you said here. However, it's VERY hard when you've been this way your entire life. I'm trying, it tends to feel selfish though.

It's not selfish, mvg, it's survival.

You can't see how to help others remove the splinters from their eyes until you remove the log from your own.

Also, you can't help someone else unless you've taken care of yourself first (put the oxygen mask on you first so you don't pass out before you put one on your child.)

I'm dealing with the same thing.....eventually it will click. I'm learning how to say 'no' when asked to do favors and it feels good. Felt selfish at first, tho. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But it sure cuts down on the overwhelming sensation of being ....as my FWH says "OOC"...(Out Of Control).

Ace

Yes it does feel better! I'm learning to say no. It's still a foreign concept at times.

BR, TA, mvg, others:




In a nutshell, this could explain what helped my WH choose to de-fog after D-day #4. He must have realized that I would not enable his fantasy anymore....that I deserved (and demanded) better, and that I was worth it.

Was I fearful....YES! It took all the courage in me to say those words. But I truly meant them and pictured myself alone, surviving...but alone.

I was shocked when he nearly collapsed and begged for strike 5. But he knew I meant it, and apparently, he means it, too. He shudders now to think how stupid he was.

mvg, hang around and take in all the input you can.....LA helped me tremendously as I see she has you on your other thread....and take baby steps. Above all, ask questions......the only stupid question is the one you do
NOT ask.

I'm anxious to continue hearing the dialog regarding enabling/controlling/cheerleading/conflict avoiding and also co-dependency. I'm learning so much...thank you TA and BR, too.

How does the last one fit in compared to the other 4 behaviors?

Ace

TA ~ It is not that I don't get it and need it explained to me. It is that my understanding of enabling makes the rest of this discussion unnecessarily complex.

I think that mountains are being made out of molehills.

I disagree with your definition of enabling. I think that my motivations for ANY choice should not include consideration of 'consequences' or lack thereof for other people.

The very act of deciding to act or not to act, based on MY judgement of someone else, is enabling and controlling. It sets me up as judge and jury and parent.

Mind your own business is a powerful tool for the enabler...traumatized or habitual.

There is a profound difference between working as a couple, helping each other out, from enabling behavior.

To use the gas in the car analogy - which fits - I am notoriously bad at remembering to put gas in my truck. I ususally drive it until its on fumes. Its honestly just not on my radar screen, I have so many other things to cram into a day, stopping at a gas station is just too much trouble.

When my husband drives the truck, for example, on a Sunday night he might use it get groceries. He'll fill it up for me so that I am ready to hit the road on Monday with no distractions - as an act of LOVE - showing his care and love for me. But if he doesn't drive the truck...I'm on my own - so far I've yet to run out of gas!

Now, if he was going outside to check the fuel gauge every night, and constantly reminding me to fill up, or constantly going out at night to take it to the station after I come home from work - THAT would be enabling.

Care and love are not motivated by control. Enabling IS. Control is a response to fear.

Care and love are NOT enabling...can not be enabling...even though sometimes...people may mistakenly confuse enabling and care. I think that is what you have done here.

I certainly thought my past enabling behavior was love and care. Upon serious, deep contemplation...after hard work on the 12 steps...I discovered my control, my fear, my selfish motivations behind the enabling. I was horrified to discover that what I had deceived myself as virtue was truely disrespectful judgements, control and fear of my own lack of worth.

Enabling is not love and can not ever be. It is motivated by fear and selfishness. Even as a habit, it is still not love. People do what works, what pays off - for themselves, not for others. Enablers are getting a fix, acknowledged or not. Habits like that pay off, while denial runs deep.

BR,
Ouch! Let me see if I get this, dummies version... Enabling I'm constantly telling/demanding/reminding someone of what THEY need to do or making excuses for what they do/do not do?

What 12 steps?

(Emphasis mine.)

Eureka! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BrambleRose - this is exactly the point I am trying to make.

People often confuse enabling with love.

When we believe ourselves to be acting in a loving way, we are light-years from seeing the deep underlying fear that is actually driving us. It can take YEARS to dig our way to that realisation.

When we are acting from fear - fear of humiliation, fear of failure, etc., - that sense of fear is usually with us like a mild headache all the time. It's relatively easy to identify and expose the fear, because it's much nearer to the surface, it's a constant discomfort, and we are really rather anxious to be rid of it.

The fear of being ejected from your family is buried much, much deeper, and is very hard to get to and expose.

Someone looking to identify their own enabling behaviours must look in more than one place. Looking at the places where they have high anxiety and an uncomfortable sense of resentment tells them where they're enabling out of fear. Looking at the places where they feel powerless, paralysed and trapped - but not guilty or resentful - tells them where they're enabling out of 'love'.

It may not be 'love' in the best and truest sense, but it is the only way they have ever been taught to define love.

There comes a point where people can recognise that, in 'loving' someone, they are in fact damaging them. But getting to that point is a long slow process. And you don't start by looking at the places where you fear. You start by looking at the places where you love.

TA

TA ~ I've been there and done that, and you are making it far more complicated than it need be.

Even the words you use to describe some 'alternative enabling' are fear words - there just is no real distinction - "powerless, paralysed and trapped" are all aspects of fear.

I am not sure why you feel the need to break it down into different kinds of enabling. It really is ALL the same...

When you learn the behavior, you learn the underlying truths behind the behavior. You learn to need the payoff.

Fear of 'ejection' from the family is still Fear of Not Being Enough.

When I started uncovering my stuff. I didn't even know I was afraid - so you are not quite right about the fear being something that one might be anxious to be rid of as opposed to something else.

My fear was buried behind years of habits and anger. It was certainly how I learned to love. It did not take me YEARS to unbury, but a matter of months of hard work with someone who forced me to check my motivations and forced me to re-examine the truths by which I led my life. And there was the fear sitting there, ugly and slimey and driving my behavior.

There is nothing "special" about where someone learned it.

The same underlying truths are still believed, the same motivations are there....
Denial just runs deeper in some than others.

mvg - yes, you got it. the 12 steps are the 12 Steps of Al-Anon, adapted from the 12 Steps of AA.

BrambleRose, if I seem to you to be making this 'unnecessarily complicated', your approach seems to me to be lacking in awareness that other people may have different experiences to you.


No, it's not. Fear of 'ejection' from the family is about fear of dying - it's that primitive. Every human - in fact most social creatures - fear separation from the troop because it makes it almost certain that they will die. That survival instinct is built into the most primitive structure of the brain.

When something is at that primitive a level, you don't experience it as fear except in moments of crisis. As you mature, the constant anxiety is translated into feelings of love, loyalty and desire for closeness. We carry those feelings, and the deep underlying fear, into old age - still seeing them as 'love'.

Fear of humiliation, disgrace, exposure, failure, etc., ARE genuine fears. But those kinds of fears are much more sophisticated than the primitive fear of abandonment - there are layers of adult emotional complexity derived from living in a complex social world. A six-month old baby doesn't fear humiliation, disgrace, failure, because it will be years before he has the least idea what they are. But he does panic when his mother leaves the room, or won't look at him when he's crying, because the abandonment fear is hard-wired into his brain.

What I'm saying is that there are some fears we can see relatively easily and unpick, but the abandonment fear is so deeply ingrained that we don't see it as fear at all...and it will not respond to the same kind of intellectual analysis that we can apply to social adult fears.

If enabling comes from fear, as you state, then it's important to recognise that there are different kinds of fear and that they don't present in the same way to the person who has them.

You've made a case for your own experience of enabling and fear. I accept that this as an accurate account. But it's a long way from my own experience; frankly, there's little in your journey I recognise. My childhood and family experience was very different to yours. I did not have a tough life as you did. I was probably far more naive and trusting than you at the same stage of life. But I don't think I'm unique.

Like most people on this board, working out how I got into this mess has been of huge importance to me. Looking back, I can see hardly any instances where I enabled my husband out of fear of humiliation and disgrace. My own self-esteem and self-confidence were much too high for me to be worried about what people would think. Your whole description of a fear model rings few bells with me.

Where I DID enable was with 'love', a concept gifted to me by my (very religious)family of origin. I was trained to believe that a good and loving wife accepts her husband's marital inadequacies ('men are always poor at relationships'), takes responsibility for the emotional state of her husband, sees herself as a lazy wife if she does not make his life comfy enough to come home to every night, absolves him of responsibilities for childcare, does not complain when he comes home late without telling her, rushes to please him in everything, asks for little and works hard at being good in bed.

I did all of that perfectly. I was BRILLIANT at it. My husband appreciated it all, and told me so, frequently. I wasn't doing it out of fear; I was doing it out of love. If wanting your spouse to be contented, for no other reason than that their contentment pleases you and makes you feel warm and good, is 'controlling', then consider me controlling. But I don't think that working to make a spouse happy for that reason is controlling at all.

Of course, despite my brilliant performance, my husband had been straying from the very start of the marriage. He was more than happy to soak up all that wonderful loving behaviour from me, and go out to supplement his excitement levels elsewhere.

As with most of us here, d-day forced me to ask 'why?'

From your own description, I think you identified behaviours of your own which might have alienated your husband. Many people here have done the same thing - it's largely why the EN model works well for so many.

But I hadn't alienated my husband, or controlled him to manage my own fears. If I had behaved less 'lovingly', I would not have expected him to stray, but I would have thought that the quality of the marriage would suffer for both of us and therefore for the children. I wasn't behaving as I did in order to avoid some fearful outcome for myself; I was acting in that way because I thought I was doing the very best I could as a mother.


I HAD allowed my husband to treat me disrespectfully, because I had been trained not to recognise it as disrespect. I had failed to demand full participation in the marriage from him, because I had been trained to believe that men aren't capable of much participation. I failed to spot that our marriage was hopelessly unfair, because my own parents' marriage had been even worse. I thought I was doing much better than them. I failed to see my own sadness, because I had been trained not to see it. I failed to recognise the lack of real intimacy.

For me, the journey to personal health has been about making myself believe that I am actually entitled to respect, fair treatment and kindness. It has been about learning to ask for what I need - and about learning to know what that might be. It has been about refusing to accept poor treatment. It has been about recognising that 'enabling' someone else's bad behaviour is not loving to them or me, and that being loving to myself is not selfish or arrogant.

It has been about redefining the meaning of 'love' from the very ground up.

It was only when I started to realise that my journey was taking me into conflict with my parents' views that I felt any fear at all. THAT seemed taboo, unthinkable, wrong. Because of course the fear of alientating one's parents triggers the abandonment fears we've had since birth.

That fear was almost paralysing, and it took a lot of work to face up to it. The result is that my parents haven't spoken to me in nearly two years. My fears were actually quite justified. I did get ejected from the family for holding different views to them.

I DID enable my husband to behave badly. But I didn't do it out of fear of Not Being Enough. I did it because I liked the feelings it gave me to be a 'good' wife. I thought I was doing God's Will (read: family's will), and I was very satisfied with that.

I had no fears to face up to. It was 'love' I had to confront.

TA

TA ~ I am very aware that other people may have different experiences. Although you might not recognize much from mine, I find it interesting because I recognize much of mine in yours.

I wish you could see what I do in your post and how much fear of not being enough is there...as much as you deny it.

It's alright though - lets just agree to disagree, ok?

Thank you both for this very enlightening discussion. I have learned just how much more I have to learn....and that is a good thing......I think! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate lifechoices for mentioning this topic and everyone who posted thoughts and questions. Frog....mvg....others.....hope you've all benefited like I have.....and many more who've read but not commented.

Again, thanks for all the time and effort spent on these excellent posts. I wish all 'discussions' were conducted so eloquently. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Oh definately enlightening, confusing a bit too for "us" that are trying to grasp so much at one time, but a GREAT thread!

TA, your last post hit so close to home in how YOUR M worked. I see alot of what I was/am doing in your post and the reasons why.

I also can relate to BR's posts and how she sees things from her perspective and agree with quite alot.

I appreciate ALL the posters here! I'm learning...feeling more and more like a rubixcube tho...just when you think you've "got it" the other side isn't right! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TA

You know, Ace, the board used to abound in in-depth, thought-provoking discussions. I learned an awful lot from them. It would be nice to see them back again.

TA

Mel, TA, BR, Frog, mvg, others....

You have helped me tremendously and I will read this thread a few more times to 'get it'......so I can 'use it' to improve our M and my entire life.

Lifechoice/Rock, thanks for inspiring this topic....you guys have all contributed to a thread that I think should have gold stars so others will benefit from it.

How do you post those stars? Can someone else do it, or do I have to since I created it? If so, tell me how....sorry.....I'm still such a newbie in soooo many ways! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Whoooooah! I didn't even see this post from you, TA, until I hit 'submit' on my above 'stars' post.



So what happened to change the discussions' "depth"....and how do WE get them back?

As a bonafide MB Veteran, might you consider hosting a thread on that topic? Speaking for Newbies, 'we' would truly benefit and appreciate it. Please consider it.

Ace

BR

I am late to the party too but a note.


This is the text book definition of enabling.


Above is why I think enablers are picked by their mates they solve the problems for the other person.


How to solve the problem.

BR if you enable out of fear you should really look at that.

What some may consider fear others do not.

My FWW is an alcoholic. I am absolutely an enabler.

Hopefully as time goes by it is weaning. I did not enable out of fear.

I enabled out of a misguided attmept to be RESPONSIBLE. Now looking back I wasn't being the responsible one I was being an enabler.

I decided to take the first step almost two years ago now.

I woke up on New Years morning and told my FWW I would be taking the kids and leaving, that no court in the world would allow her custody because of her alcoholism.

She finally hit rock bottom and went to an AA meeting. I told her it is now my choice to never live with an Alcholic again. I have done it for far to long.

She can drink any time she wants but I will leave.

Not for me but for my children.

Hi Frog,


So are you saying that after you took the kids and left, then she hit rock bottom and such consequences helped her choose to change?

What did she do to prove she had changed so that your recovery (according to your sig line) could start 11/06?

When did you come back home? (Sorry if you mentioned all this on an earlier post I didn't see.)


Are you saying that if you had no children, you would have left her for good?

Ace

Yes you are correct - but that is not the whole story.

Enablers also choose their partners - enablers choose those that they can enable. It's a mutual attraction.


One of the reasons I stay sane while living with an active alcoholic is because I've gotten good at recognizing my motivations for my behavior. Once I recognize what I am doing at any given moment, I am then able to choose to do something else.


And I would argue that those who enable for 'other reasons' have not examined their motives thoroughly enough. It's a process - a journey. Remember the peeling back the layers of the onion? If you keep peeling, you will find the fear.


Hopefully? You say this as if you don't have a choice of behavior - that it is something that just happens to you.


This is a pretty common response. Most of us, with alcoholic family members, are ultra responsible. It's classic enabling.

But don't stop looking there.

There is a reason why you chose an alcoholic for a spouse. It does NOT happen by accident.

I discovered that I called "responsible" was enabling. I had lots of excuses why I had to step up and shoulder my husband's responsibilities.

It was my Al-anon sponser who prodded me to keep peeling the onion.

Why....why did I feel the need to be responsible for another adult's stuff? What was my pay-off?

As I worked my steps, the answer became clear. When I enabled my husband, I felt superior. *I* got to feel like more because he was less. *I* was the fixer, the doer, the responsible one. He was lazy, irresponsible, and clearly less than I was. I was important because he could not live his life without my help. Poor pathetic husband, who could not live without his Responsible Wife to run his life for him.

To my horror...I realized...my payoff was a unhealthy boost to my own self esteem.

I choose him, because I felt good about myself in comparison to him. Talk about judgemental and oh so selfish!

So then I peeled back the next layer.

And there I found the fear. My judgemental selfish behavior was motivated by the fear that I was pathetic, weak, not important- NOT ENOUGH. I had been trying to bandage my wounds, my belief that I was less than, by being more than my alcoholic husband.

So Frog, you can stop at responsible. But if you truely want to stop enabling, you have to dig deeper.


Good for you, in choosing a boundary and sticking to it.

But check your motivations. Always check motivations. Did you draw the boundary to take care of you or did you draw the boundary to force her to stop drinking?

If you drew the boundary to care for yourself and your kids...that is healthy and good. If you drew the boundary to force her to experience consequences, and force her to stop drinking...well that is control - and sets you up as the superior partner. The payoff is still there.

Thats why I always say that motivation is everything. And believe me, the same action, with differing motivations can have differing outcomes.

I'd guess from reading what you wrote that you drew a healthy boundary for yourself.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that your boundary is the cause, the cure or the control over her choice to get sober. That is classic controller/enabler thinking.

The fact of the matter is, that there are many alcoholics who lose their families, lose everything, including their lives, in the pursuit of alcohol.

Thank goodness your wife had a relatively high rock bottom.

Sorry for the late responses. I am swamped

So Ace-

No. I live in California so taking the kids would have really hurt me in a custody hearing. She knew I had already seen a lawyer. I told her I would be filing that week.

I think she finally saw I was serious.

She said she was willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. She looked me in the eye and told me how sorry she was for the damage her decesions hav caused.

That is exactly why I drew the boundary. I stayed M'd for the kids well being. However being M'd to an active alcholic was counterproductive to that goal.

I tried to avoid that reality but it was a reality none the less.

No my boudary protects me not her. She can drink any time she wants she decides that. I have decided what I WILL DO if that happens.

I don't know about that. I would say sleeping with an almost complete stranger In MY AUNTS home with my kids and my family upstairs is a pretty low bottom.



I think this can be covered by your motivaiton comment about telling an Alcholic to stop.

Your motivation for enabling was different then mine.

I did it because as a man I thought I was supposed to take care of these things. The finances, taking care of the wife etc.

Thump on chest grunt and do man's work!!!! Frog good man grunt grunt.

As far as marrying an Alcoholic. I didn't realize she was an Alchoholic.

We were younger and we would party with our friends. I stopped partying she did not that is when I realized she had a problem.

This thread is great, THANKS ACE for starting these thingys, i will be reading up over the next day or so. Good stuff!

What is the difference in enabler and co-dependent?

Both are interelated and where you find one...you usually find the other. Enabling is when you are helping someone with their dependency. Definitions of enabling include:
make able, give power, means, competence or ability to...authorize. To make possible or easy.

Here are some examples of enabling:

* Doing something for another that they should do themselves.

* Making excuses for the individual’s behavior

* A spouse calling his or her significant other’s employer to say that the person is sick when they are just hung over which is why they can’t work.


* Bailing out a child who has been arrested for possession, use or abuse of drugs, or breaking other societal rules.

* Instead of recognizing a problem the enabler may defend the substance abuser thereby allowing the behavior to continue.

* Generally covering the tracks of the individual in question whether it be by giving/loaning money, finishing up work, or just generally ignoring behaviors that should have repercussions. Usually the enabler stays silent when faced with repeated inappropriate or destructive behavior.


Codependency is when you are suffering to support someone else's dependency. You are addicted to the their dependency. Co-dependency is the idea of being overly involved in another person’s life. Having a constant preoccupation with the other person’s behavior and feeling unnecessarily guilty when not taking care of the other person’s needs. This often times stems from not having adequate self-esteem. Some common themes in the co-dependency cycle on the part of the dependent person are as follows:

* My feelings are not important

* I'm not good enough.

* I’m not lovable

* My having problems is not acceptable

* It's not OK for me to have fun.

* I don’t deserve love

* I’m responsible for my friend or significant other’s behavior

Definitions for codependency include:

*giving power over our self esteem to outside sources/agencies or external manifestations.

*taught to look outside of our selves to people, places, and things - to money, property and prestige, to determine if we have worth.

*causes us to keep repeating patterns that are familiar. So we pick untrustworthy people to trust, undependable people to depend on, unavailable people to love.

Codependency is the motive. Enabling is the action.

So a codependent is someone who has learned to seek self worth externally, often through self sacrifice. They become enablers because they are codependent.



Dr. Darlene Albury describes it this way:

star*fish

Thank you I feel I better understand now. Undoing though, gosh HARD STUFF.

Not to t/j I'm posting/will post my progress on my current thread.. I need some reassurance ...help wit...Madmax the only voice of 'reason' here?

Geezzzz I'm a therapist's poster child!

Hey Acey,

I don't normally hang out here when I'm back home with Mrs. RIF and the girls... Life is just too full for us now.

I "came back" to MB when I deployed this past June and I've noticed a difference. I haven't really been able to put my finger on the difference, but it "feels" different.

I think that as long as everyone recognizes the fact that we posters (even us "veterans") are NOT trained MC or psychologists and that any "advice" that we give is based on our own personal experiences, then that will go a long way towards civil discussions.

One of the things that I've been taught by the military is to always "Stay In My Lane"... If I don't have a personal experience with something (like Plan-B, divorce, an OC, etc.) I stay out of those discussions! I see too many people here that offer up "advice" based on what they've seen other's do or say, or what they've read in a book or an article, when they have no personal experience...

Anyway, I can only control what I do, so for me, I will only post "advice" based on what I've personally experienced.

Lastly, I think that if we could all learn to respect other's and treat others like we'd like to be treated, that the boards would "get back" to some of those "thought provoking" discussions...

Semper Fi,

RIF

St*r...thanks soooo much for your explanation of co-dependency and how it relates to enabling. Very helpful insights for me and others. Are you and mvg both having daughters' weddings tomorrow? Wow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Here is the post that motivated me originally to ask this question about the difference between enabling and cheerleading (and controlling....and CA.....and co-dependency):



I've learned that I was trying to control my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Thank you MBers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Even though she ignored me for several weeks, I merely kept sending short emails saying "How are you, I'm praying for you." I didn't know if she even received them or not.

AFter 4 weeks, she's emailing me again and asking what I've learned about 'enabling'. YEA!!!! I will cut and paste many posts from this thread. Hopefully she'll give me her new phone number soon. (Dang, she had changed it to avoid me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, her choice.)

RIF, thanks for your insights and for returning to your night shift (and agreeing to a double shift on the recovery vacation thread). Can't tell you and other veteran posters how much we (who registered within the last year) appreciate your willingness to share, even when you have nothing to gain*. One day, I wanna be like you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ace

*I know many gain the satisfaction of helping others by 'paying it forward' but I know many also just want to help because......just 'because'....and I say thanks to all!

I have just started reading this thread. I had never realized I was an enabler, but I'm textbook case.

H is a compulsive spender. Since we have been together I have always paid off his debt to "protect" him from himself. In 15 years of being together, I have spent well over 30K wiping out his debt everytime he has made a mistake. I thought I was being a good and supportive spouse, turns out I've been enabling his behavior.

Last week, we separated and now he is trying to get more money from me because in the last 2 weeks he has spent over 15k for stuff he cannot afford. He has been trying everything to get money from me. Every trick in the book. I haven't budged and now I know it's a good thing. He's going to hit rock bottom before long I can feel it.

mbm69,

So glad you found this thread useful. There's another thread Affairs $uck that may have some helpful insights into financial dealings.....if nothing else, the stories may make you feel better about your sitch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It will be one step at a time. Please post whatever questions you may have about the process. Someone gave this thread the 5 stars it deserves so it's easier to find now. I'm learning right along with you.

Best wishes to you as you deal with all the aspects of your separation. Is your story on another thread somewhere? If so, can you provide a link to it here?

Thanks,
Ace

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3322843

Above is the most recent thread I've posted.

It's very tough right now because SO left very suddenly, without what I find is a good excuse. Left me interim full custody with the kids and doesn't seem to want to see them that much. He's not the man I thought he was. The man I knew would NEVER abandon his family like that. He often shunned his brother for doing just that.

I've been discussing a lot with my parents about this, and we think with his income, and the few bills he paid at home, he had been spending money elsewhere. Yesterday it clicked... he has been playing online poker for the last few months. I'm wondering if the A that I've been wondering about isn't a pathologic gambling/spending problem that he's trying to hide. It's easier to hide if you are on your own.

hehehe I can link and rate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This Thread DESERVES the high ratings, wish it could be a sticky to stay on top of postings. It's great info.,unfortunately so many of us fall into these catagories.

mvg,

Sneaky you...assigning stars to this lil' ol thread in the midst of all your distractions....glad you figured it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> You're ahead of me.

Ace

So what's the flavor of the 'week' (or should it be 'day')?

Cheerleader, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Enabler, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Controller, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Conflict Avoider, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

or Co-depender? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Y'know, mvg, I just realized how different my life (and marriage) would have been (and would now be) if couples had to learn about these kinds of things before being issued a marriage license. Like driver licenses, not knowing various related facts and concepts could be deadly. Too bad there is not a required manual to be read regarding marriage....and life in general.

The worst part, as you alluded is that more often than not, we are not aware of how these behaviors affect our lives. But we act on one or all of these tendencies every day (or week).

So much to learn.....so little time, it seems. Just taking baby steps....reading this thread and digesting what I can. Thanks to all who contributed.

Ace

I again whole heartedly with ya Ace! Where or where are those instruction manuals! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Baby steps for sure. LA posted a very helpful insight on my thread...what she responded to was I made a comment something along the lines of needing major overhaul, her reply was baby steps...learning and applying. What a smart lady!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya know as hard and hurtful as WH's EA was/is...I've learned SO much here from good folks about ME and Him maybe just maybe I was very lucky that EA didn't progress further but because of it I was really fortunate to have found MB. I didn't realize things were not as they COULD be. COULD be so much better than I ever imagined.

Ok back to flavor of the day...Cheerleader with grateful heart. Week didn't start that way, but hey I'm sure glad it's improving, with much of the improvement from encouragement from my MB friends. Thanks y'all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel threw tough love at Charlotte and she responded, saw her choices, made the decision to stop enabling......and followed up with actions.

*************************************************************

MelodyLane, Member, Reged: Apr 10 2001, Posts: 25091
Loc: Great State of Texas! Re: Thanks you guys... [Re: Miss M] #3325906 - Sun Oct 28 2007 07:27 AM


Charlotte, if you decide to stop enabling his affair and take some action here, give me a shout out and I will help you. But I won't help you contribute to your own demise. I won't come here and give you atta-girls for enabling your husbands affair. You want to save your marriage, you will have to do some work. And I don't mean sitting around crying.

Remember, courage is a DECISION, not a magic feeling that lands on some and not on others. We ALL have the ability to make a DECISION. I will be here when you are ready to do some real work.

--------------------
misplaced compassion gives power to EVIL.....

*************************************************************

The action starts about page 5 of Charlotte's thread (name changes too fast to mention) and shows how she courageously broke through her fear in exposing to OWH to stop enabling the affair.

[color:"blue"] Edited to add emphasis and to thank Weaver and Mr. W for email confirmation. mvg...great idea to seek stories of the ongoing process. I'm working on one to share about the situation that I mentioned at the bottom of page 1.

Ace [/color]

Ace, you have mail. Sorry, I didn't see it yesterday.

Got your email

Thanks

Anyone making headway on their enabling/co-dependency issues? What are you doing? How are you feeling?

Post here for those of us that are strugggling.

I was proud of myself this week-small improvement. H wanted GC to spend the weekend with us, but wanted me to make all the arrangements. Never asked me if I was ok with this, on top of just getting thru DD wedding and having UTI (with possible kidney stone, I haven't felt well, so I was a tad irratated with him. He's never really gone out of his way to establish a relationship with our girls, does it thru me. WELL NOT THIS TIME. I told him you need to call DD and find out if this would be ok. He moped around a few days didn't know what to say (whole other difficult sitch) but he did finally do it. I told him what I would say if it were me calling, and he did use some of that in their conversation, but I digress.... I DIDN'T ENABLE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Way to go!!!!! Good job and thanks for sharing, mvg.

I have a sorta-success story, too but I'll share it later.

Ace

Hey, thanks, Ace!!!

Made me feel good to see that after I logged in this a.m. I will be thinking about that when I talk to H...the Sunday morning "Atta, girl!" will give me even more confidence and strength.

So will thinking about all the great people here who so kindly helped out a drowning stranger. If someone had told me I'd be feeling this good a month ago, I'd have told them they were nuts!

No more enabling, NEVER again!

Have a nice Sunday, Everyone!

Charlotte

You've already taken the next step towards your personal and marital recovery, Charlotte....posting encouragement all over the place. You are truly an all-star and I hope others will learn from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just curious about your thoughts when Mel first challenged you on your 'enabling your H's affair'. Others may relate to such a confrontation and get defensive. Why did you respond in the positive way you did?

Keep up the great work.

Ace

Thanks Ace! I was very proud of myself for stepping back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Charlotte I haven't read your sitch but please keep posting here...I think this is a GREAT thread and hopefully we'll all learn to unlearn.

Hey Ace!

Finally made it here. Thanks for the kudos!!

I read back to those posts and I'm not sure why I didn't get defensive. Maybe because I finally accepted my enabling role so I could throw it away. Is that how it works? You embrace it so you can accept that you were wrong to be an enabler and then you just let it go? That's the only thing I can figure.

I had so much encouragement that I was motivated to finally go for it. Especially THE Tuesday...I am SO glad that those who pushed me were able to reboot my system and get it going.

Part of me is still trying to take it all in...that drive to go meet OWH is a blur. I don't know how I didn't get pulled over. I think that there was a force of good around me...all of the positive thoughts from everyone and divine intervention to help me make the journey.

Actually, the devil did try to stop me because when I jumped in the truck to go the a/c would not come on so I rolled down the windows. Then when I was on the tollway, the passenger side mirror just fell off all of a sudden. It's still hanging on the side of the truck from a wire. I need to glue it back on.

I missed my turn but found the right one in spite of all of the construction that had gone on since I'd last ventured to that area.

The traffic started to back up a bit but it cleared very quickly and the next thing I knew I was pulling into the parking lot to meet OWH.

WOW! What a day!

Hi Charlotte, mvg, others.....



Thanks for your insights, Charlotte. I'm sure it's different for everyone, but those motivations, (especially all your MB supporters) make sense.

I hope this will help others 'see' how to overcome our natural tendencies to 'keep status quo', 'not rock the boat', 'try to retain the comfortable feelings' and other facades that envelop enabling.

It's a continuing process for me, but I'm starting to get some progress with how I'm helping a friend and no longer enabling her. AND....she's still my friend!!!! Details at the bottom of page 1 of this thread.

Keep posting as you think of things, Charlotte....and mvg....and anyone else who can help overcome these debilitating conditions in our relationships.

I may not lurk/post much for awhile, but I'll check back when we get back from vacation. In the meantime, carry on.

Ace

Thanks Ace!

I hope you have a GREAT vacation!!!!!!

I hope this will help others 'see' how to overcome our natural tendencies to 'keep status quo', 'not rock the boat', 'try to retain the comfortable feelings' and other facades that envelop enabling.

Oh so true. I think it was LA who told me, when asked a question take a moment for it to sink in, think about it rather than responding right away. As an enabler I always want to help and will sacrifice my own needs/desires for others. That's not always a good thing. I also found that if you also repeat back the request to the one asking, sometimes THEY even get hey that's not really a responsible way to ask something, that they are laying on guilt, or just trying to get what they want at whatever cost. The pause also give the asker time to reflect on WHY you aren't responding with the automatic 'yes' they are accustomed to.

It's such a FREEING experience. It's not selfish. It's respect for self.

I'm working on it too, not quite there yet, but oh when I can actually pull it off, it's awesome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In Alanon we learn about the three As.

We become aware, then accept it, then take action.

The first 2 steps are very important - most people become aware, and then take action - and that oh so importance of acceptance is skipped. Unfortunately, without acceptance, actions taken will have less than a desired outcome.

Great post, BrambleRose. Now I understand better about what happened with me. When Ace asked me the question I had to think about it for a little while.

And my answer felt right, I just didn't know how to convey it in the correct manner.

Now I GOT it!!!

Thanks BR! Have a great day!

Charlotte

Quote from Star*fish: It is difficult to stop enabling if you’re trying to do it with all authority. And it’s not easy until you know you deserve to stop. Until you know that you are endearing regardless of what the person you’ve previously enabled says to the contrary until you raise your own self-esteem enough to be that strong. You may think it’s the other person who needs all of the help, in truth, you both do.

I don't know that I yet feel I deserve to stop. I'm still dealing alot with deserving & worthiness. Getting there slowly.
One of my problems is to separate what I do out of love and what I do that is enabling. Those can be very easily confused.
Any suggestions?

Anyone?????

mvg, I struggle with this too due to my "I'm here to help" personality.

I think one of the defining issues is whether or not the 'deed' is something the person COULD do for themselves but you do it for them for whatever reason. But if I do it with MY condition attached, then I'm trying to control. If I encourage and HELP them find a way to do it, then I'm cheerleading.

Just a thought...maybe it's off, but that's where I'm lingering for now.

Ace

That's a good point Ace.

I've been battling as you know with the enabler/co-dependency issue vs. personality type. Yesterday I purchased the book the 5 love languages. I hope this will be of help to me in defining the way I love and my language. Maybe (hoping) H & I just aren't communicating in the way each other needs. I'll have to read and see if this offers any suggestions.

Hey mvg,

I'm back from vacation and this is my first post....but I do have to go to work soon so I won't be able to check in til later.

Does your sentence above have a typo/missing word? If not, I'm confused. I'm not familiar with that book so maybe that's the source of my befuddlement.

My DH only needs headlines so I communicate headlines and try to wait for him to ask questions. I always check to see if he's in the mood for more details if he doesn't ask before I WANT to share them.

I need details and get frustrated when DH shares nothing, or at best, meager headlines. When he communicates details on his own, I feel valued because he's making an unsolited effort to meet my needs.

We are trying hard to communicate in the way each other needs. Or should we be?

As I re-read your statement, do you mean "I'm hoping that's all that our problem is.....that we're just not communicating well.....not that he's still not in NC."

If so, I understand. Just checking for clarification.

Ace

Ace, I'm not sure about the typo thing...the book is called "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. Chapman believes there are 5 'languages' of love such as, words of affirmation, quality time,receiving gifts,acts of service, physical touch. VERY much like MB but gives some specific examples and how to recognize. So far I'm only a little ways into the book, I like it. I can't wait to get to the part of discovering your personal love language. He says each of us has a primary 'language' and we 'fill our love tanks' when our language is used by our spouse and others. Like EN's.

Since my H hasn't used my ENQ I'm hoping this might be easier for him to understand. He's making so much effort and I SEE these changes but it's not exactly what I need.I feel ashamed to even say that, but it's true. I need 'words' and 'actions', not just actions. I'm also hoping this will help me understand him better.

I think that Froz's thread on Renters should be required reading for all enablers:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3335673

mvg, your insertion of the pharens (hoping) made your statement sound like you are 'hoping that your H and you are NOT comunicating in the way that each of you needs'.

At first I thought just the opposite....that my H and I are hoping that we ARE communicating in the way that each of us needs the other to communicate with each other.

br.....sorry I can't respond more until later...gotta go to work, but thanks.

I will get this book and read Froz's thread. Appreciate the link....hope it helps others, too.

Ace

AHH I see know what you were talking about. Forgive my typing in circles...still on pain meds, and sometimes things make PERFECT sense to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BR, I'm over there on Frozen's thread too...UGH
Enabler, Renter, loony BS...geezzz where oh where does it all end??? I am learning SO much, not necessarily liking what I'm learning but learning non the less.

Thank you all!

I appreciate the link to Froz's thread, BR. You're right...it has great insights that will take time for my pea brain to digest.

Hope other enablers (and enablers-in-denial) will read that thread. It gives many foundational thoughts showing the differences (from this thread's title traits) and what to do about them.

Again, thanks.

Ace

Hello,

My Name is Ace and I am a Major Controller. I think my FWH may be enabling me to continue trying to control him.

He is a conflict avoider and I usually am not. This may be part of our problem....to avoid conflict, he just agrees with me, allowing me to control him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I just realized this last night, BUT we discussed it civilly, calmly, and without lovebusters. Major step for both of us. But it does not solve our situation.

Does anyone else have this problem? What should we do to fix it?

Ace

YUP me too, I am learning how to recognize the signs though and hopefully rectify before I enable/control.

What are you controlling Ace, anything specific or are you superwoman???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My outfit is in the closet most days now.

In a nutshell....

I think I'm controlling my DH and I think he is enabling me to control him.

He says he will DO ANYTHING to help me heal. I try not to ask for anything outlandish, especially when I baited him after D-Day #4 and said "Ok, you'll do anything? What if I asked you to fly across the country to see OWH at work and apologize to him?"

He said, "I'd do it today."

Of course that was pre-MB, but it gave me a clue that he was indeed serious about "doing anything to help me heal." (Didn't even know where OWH worked, but I discovered later ~~~>with the help of MB posters<~~~ how to find OWH so I could expose 6 months after D-Day #3.)

Here's how it works:

Inadvertantly, I TELL DH what I want. He agrees and does it immediately. (Even when he does NOT want to.) He stuffs his real feelings. I try to read his body language but can't always know when he's stuffing his feelings.

Our MC hsa been helping me 'make it safe' for DH to share his true feelings but I must be missing something. I will ask MC for ways to communicate now that I realize that I'm doing it (being such a controller). My fear is that DH will eventually stuff too much and blow up. I shared this on JustKim's "Plan WTF" thread.

I'll put the specific incident on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread on the Recovery Forum. It would be better to keep this discussion generic.

I'm studying the freeloaders/renters/buyers thread for communication tips that will help me become a 'recovering controller'. Any insights would be helpful.

Thanks,
Ace

Hiding your feelings can certainly be a control method.

In this specific situation however...I am not so sure.

It is possible that he simply feels so incredibly guilty that he does not feel he is entitled to feelings, wants, needs and desires.

This is his reparation.

But of course, you are right, it certainly will sabotage recovery - and create what he fears - losing you.

However, if you are a newly reforming controller - there are probably some things you are still doing without even realizing it that are creating an unsafe environment.

My husband and I have a habit of asking each other what our goals. It sets the stage for exploring "interests" instead of "positions" as we talked about on Froz's thread.

For example today is Saturday. Old controllng me would have woken up with an agenda for the day and then made anyone who got in the way of my plan feel completely guilty and miserable. I oh so resented my husband for being a lazy slacker on Saturdays.

Instead, I've begun to see the value of his point of view - that Saturday is the one day a week we can decompress a little. That the end of the world will NOT occur if he sleeps until the ungawdly hour of 10am. Now, sometimes, I sleep in too!

When he wakes up - I'll have already made coffee. He'll stumble into the shower and after he wakes up a wee bit, I'll hand him a cup of coffee through the shower curtain and one of us will ask: What do you want to accomplish today?

It sets a tone - it becomes a pleasant sharing of goals and priority setting instead of a hard bargaining position where both of us are entrenched.

My husband used grudgingly carry out his list of "Honey Dos", staggering around exhausted and angry because he really felt his needs (sleeping in) were ignored. He rarely told me how he felt about it, it came out in other nasty passive agressive ways. I discovered that he is more motivated to help me and we get more done (which was my real goal) if I let him sleep.

As long as the conversation went: BR is good and virtuous because she gets up on Saturdays to do chores and Mr. BR is selfish and lazy because he sleeps...

Well, now you can see that not only was it disrespectful of me, but controlling (and selfish!) on my part also.

So, making things safe...its a hard thing to do intuitively. You have fear and control working on both sides.

I've found the 2 conversation derailers are these:

Honey, Lets talk about your feelings

Honey, I need you to get the lawn mowed, and the garage cleaned out and the hallway repainted today.

If you had asked me at the time that I used these as conversation openers, I would tell you that I wanted open dialogue and negotiation with my husband. I didn't understand why he was sooooooooooooo resistant to cooperating with me. He wasn't open and honest, and here I was trying to be understanding!!

What I learned to do is to begin by trying to explore my husband's interests and begin brainstorming options to meet both my needs and his.

So the conversation might be onsided at first - with you doing all the work, but if you keep asking what he thinks, and praising and admiring good options or solutions that he may offer...eventually you will have drawn your husband into the discussion.

If your husband makes a slip and lets out a feeling or a need - be sure that you acknowledge it and treat it with as much tender respect as you do your own feelings and needs.

Thanks so much for your time and input, BR. This is exactly what happened in the challenge that inspired my Beyond THE BEFORE poem after we overcame it. Or, I should say....this is what did NOT happen.

Last week while during during our 10 day baseball vacation,I assumed that when DH mentioned something about 'us 30 years from now' that he wanted to brainstorm about how we would get to those 30 years. I was thrilled that he mentioned it because it's usually me bringing up the 'let's set goals' topic. How funny to hear that you and your DH go through the same thing. Glad to hear how you're approaching it, BR.

When he spoke of 'us 30 years from now',I expected falsely that DH would want to discuss the specifics of our 30 year goals, but he was merely making a statement in passing. Then I selfishly demanded that we talk about it since he had brought it up......and that's all she wrote. Our differences in perceptions led to a shouting match with name calling and lovebusting galore. In fact, I threatened to jump off the balcony of our 7th floor suite in my frustration. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> And in hindsight, I think I was just angry that I could not control him like I had been able to do for the past several months.

Tender respect? Neither of us were tender or respectful. When I plopped down on the bed and rolled over in exasperation, I suddenly developed vertigo and got horribly dizzy. DH softened and actually started to cry.....right before a baseball work out we had to attend. But when he offered to forgo the workout, I softened, too. By the next day, the dizziness was gone....must have been just stress induced and not really vertigo.


Thank you for this insight. You could be right. We will discuss this with our MC in a couple weeks. In the meantime, I will attempt to create that 'safety for sharing with tender respect' scenario so I can at least do my part to become a 'recovering controller'.

Ace

uh, yes, a threat to jump off a balconey is a HUGE control/power play.

Do you see how that might enable his stuffing of emotions?

And here is where you have to dig deeper.

Why were you angry? What is it that you fear?

We could analyze your husband's behavior all day long and get nowhere - but your behavior - that we can address.

Controllers like to discuss the other spouse - instead of their own motivations and agendas.

The assumption is: There's nothing wrong with me! He is <insert judgemental diagnosis here>. If he would change, we could be happy!

By addressing your fear of letting go of him, your behavior will shift, almost without your conscious notice. It will make a huge difference in how you approach each other.

Excellent post BR!!!


Hey Acey - OK, RIF is putting on his 'serious' hat...

For me, controlling came very easily for me. I'm 6 years older than Mrs. RIF. Early in our M (when Mrs. RIF was having her A's), I was very controlling. I treated Mrs. RIF like a kid and not my W... After I found out about her "first" A, I became obsessed with controlling her.

Fast forward to our early rebuilding years...

I think that it 'normal' for most BS to want to control everything about the WS. After all, part of the pain of an A is the fact that the BS had absolutely NO control over the A. Early on, I tried to control Mrs. RIF and "get" the answers that I needed from her. I tried to control her with slight comments and references to her past sins in order to get what I wanted...

Eventually, I learned that I had to create a safe place for Mrs. RIF before she would open up. When I was able to do that, Mrs. RIF started to responding to my questions and really started rebuilding with me.

The more that I let her know that I wasn't going to blast her when she answered my questions, the safer she felt. This took us a while to get used to, but once we got the hang of it, Mrs. RIF eventually got to a point where she actually would let me "have it" if I started the controlling behavior of the past.

At some point in your rebuilding process, I believe that you will have to let go of the control issues. This is the point where the BS has to step out on faith that the WS's consistent actions are "real" and that they can start trusting them again.

It doesn't happen overnight, but from what you've told us, I'd say that you and your DH are well on the way. You're both learning how to communicate with each other and his actions are consistent. This will take lots of practice for both of you... eventually, there will come a time where you will have to take that step of faith in your DH...

Semper Fi,

RIF

He lied and then denied. I forced him to confess.

I feared his regression back to D-Day #1 when he was lying and denying.

He's on stike 5. Lack of admission when I know he's lying and accompanying remorse and repentence is the deal breaker we both have discussed. I felt he was dishonoring and devaluing me.

Dang, I have to go but I do want to hear all your input. I have a family gathering happening. Saw your post, RIF and I will reply later, I promise.

Thanks,
Ace

I posted this on renter/buyer thread but I thought I'd ask the same questions here.

My tendency to control (which, to my chagrin, I've recently discovered) is a major stumbling block in our recovery. That's what led to our explosion which eventually we were able to overcome and led to my poem "Beyond THE BEFORE."

It worked, but I'm not pleased with what I've realized was our solution: My controlling behavior and my DH's willingness to sacrifice and stuff his real feelings to the point that he even cried in anguish when he realized that I would not deal with his continued lying and denials (non-A related).

I now see that within our communication, I have conditions that I expect my DH to display to my satisfaction. He must have a good attitude, be truthful, and quick to admit and apologize when errors are committed. I expect the same of myself.

When he fails to keep his end of the bargain, however, I am quick to tell him that it's best if we just cut to the chase, complete the inevitable, split now and get it over with. When I fail, however, DH tries to work with me to find out how we can 'get back on the rails together.'

I now recognize how I control him. I make him remorseful and apologetic because that's how we are able to get back on the rails. He jumps through my hoops with reckless abandon as soon as I throw my tantrums and hissy fits. He says (and backs it up with actions) that he will do anything to help me heal and help us to rebuild our trust and marriage so that it's better than it was before. (BTW, the bar was so low that we're now accomplishing that by leaps and bounds.)

But we struggle with motivations in our actions (or lack of postive perceptions.)

I want him to choose actions that please me because he wants to, not just because he knows that I want him to do certain things. I want to choose actions that please him because I want to, in addition to because I know it's what he wants me to do. At the same time, I want to be the source of his happiness and him to be the source of mine.


I guess I mistook my willingness to give up on "us" as my 'letting go of him'. How do I let go without giving him up so he can find someone else who does not try to control him? (Can you believe I actually think/say this to him?...that's one of the many things that I need to stop.)

RIF,


I understand that I have to let go. As you can see, I'm a little confused as to how 'letting go' looks. I recognize that I go a little too far with my 'let's just get this over with before it get's ugly' approach. (Jeeez the enemy sure is convincing, isn't he????) Our recovery is going extremely well one moment and I'm willing to chuck it all the next.

So how do I 'let go' without 'giving up on us?'

Ace

Hey Acey,

For me, letting go ment that I had to STOP looking at everything through BS/WS/Affair C*ap glasses... and I mean EVERYTHING.

This was very hard for me since Mrs. RIF didn't confess most of her A's until 10+ years later. So I had a lot of 'missing time' to process.

If your DH is working hard at earning your trust, his actions are CONSISTENTLY trustworthy, and he is basically doing the things that YOU've asked him to do... then at some point, YOU will have to take off the BS/WS/A C*ap glasses and start relating to your DH as your DH and not your FWS DH.

I remember the "day" that that I did this... I changed my sig-line and put Mrs. RIF down as forgiven and not FWW...

It takes time to get to this point... Like I said earlier, from what you're telling us about your H's actions, and the thoughts that you're dealing with, I'd say that you are getting close to this point. Only YOU can decide when the time is right to take those glasses off...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hi Ace ~ RIF has certainly hit part of it that worked for me.

There comes a point in recovery where the Affair Filter has to come off, because it causes more damage and hinders healing. We are more than WS and BS. We are husband and wife, a couple, a partnership...a family.

You have three things to do.

Let go of fear.
Let go of control.
Let go of your husband.

I asked you about anger and fear and you said:


And if he regresses back to D-Day #1....what will you do?

What unspeakable consequence will happen? Will the world end? Will you disappear? Will your life be over?

The thing most of us fear is being alone. We fear not being enough. We fear that the other person's choices are a reflection - a reflection of our own value.

We say to ourselves...if I was good enough he would love me enough not to do <insert hurtful action here>.

We say to ourselves...if I am not good enough for him, I am not good enough for anyone else either. No one else will see value in me - therefore, I am not valuable.

We make the mistake of making the other person's truths and the other person's actions about ourselves.

The thing is, we just aren't that important - but we are so caught up, so self absorbed in our gibbering, gut wrenching fear that we are not enough...that we fail to see that it just isn't about us.

The fear....that we are not enough....that we will fail without someone else to help carry the burden....is a fear that if you are left alone, others will see you fail, see that you are not enough...and you will be rejected.

You see, at least when you have a spouse, and you fail, you have someone else to blame. Self esteem is built on "at least I am the good one!"

The truth is: You are good enough and strong enough and his failures are not a measure of your value.

The truth is: His failures and choices are about HIM and a measure of who he is, not about you.

Your self esteem has to be grown from internal sources (yourself) instead of from external sources (your spouse and others).

Rooting your self-esteem in yourself will allow you to let go of that fear, let go of control...and let go of your husband.

The need to control is always driven by fear.

Fear is a self-fulfilling prophecy - we create (by controlling behavior) what we fear the most.

You fear losing your husband, so you attempt to control the outcome by controlling him...which will end your marriage without a doubt.

Letting go never means "Dump the Bum". People frequently make that mistake though, thats for sure.

I bumped my Detachment with love thread for you.

Here is how you let go of your husband:


The key - acceptance.

Hi Ace,

Well, I sure see a lot of me in your thread. My WH was exactly the same - went along with everything for 34 years. He just put me in the position of making all decisions. If I didn't do it, neither one of us did. Yikes. I read your thread and realized what a controller I am.

I know that you two will make it through this. You are both working so hard on it. Your H is willing to do whatever it takes, and believe me, I would give anything to hear those words.

I'm always following your threads, just don't always have any words of wisdom. Just trying to learn from everyone else since I felt like I've done everything wrong.

I'm cheering for you Ace!!

Oh Chailover, your post blesses me so much. Somehow, when you expose your faults, hoping to reap solutions, it's so refreshing that folks like RIF, BR and others are so willing to invest in you (me).

Hearing that you and mvg and others are feeling the same thing is somehow comforting. I'm the weird one, I LIKE 2x4s because it helps me keep from doing the same dumb stuff over and over again. (And it's nice to know others care enough to say something before I fall off the ignorance cliff.) So if I can be the bold one to reveal my [email]cr@pola[/email] (as mvg says), and others can relate, it makes me feel good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BR and RIF....my response is coming after I get back from church. Thank you soooo much for your replies. BR, I even pasted your 'recovery' story on the MB success stories thread.

Again, thanks,
Ace

Hi everyone! I was reading some material for my Al-Anon program, and I thought it would be very helpful to us over here too. The following is a article on Detachment, and I've gone through it and taken out references to alcoholism, and replaced it with infidelity.
Funny how just changing a few words can make a big difference!!

*****************

Detachment with Love

We cannot "Live and Let Live" if we do not attend to our own responsibilities instead of focusing on the responsibilities of others. To keep the focus on ourselves, we need to learn to "detach with love".

We learn how to cope with the infidelity of those we love and to detach from the behavior, not necessarily the person. Infidelity is a family dysfunction. This means family members are deeply affected, physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially and intellectually, even though they themselves are not unfaithful.

The stress of living with active infidelity can have numerous effects:

Physical - We may develop health problems such as headaches, high blood pressure, stomach aches, ulcers, panic attacks, insomnia, and heart problems.

Emotional - We may feel angry, resentful, lonely, guilty, or depressed.

Social - In relating to others, we may be distant, aloof, embarrassed, withfrawn, aggressive, arrogant, self righteous, judgemental, or controlling.

Intellectual - We may find it difficult to concentrate, make decisions, comprehend what we are hearing and reading.

Spiritual - Our outlook on life may become bitter, despairing, helpless, hopeless, or lacking in trust or faith.

With practice and with support from others we come to understand that detachment from the wayward spouse's problems does not mean that we stop caring about the person.

Keys to detaching with love:

Responsibility - The first key in detaching is to begin taking responsibility for our own behavior. We can no longer stumble through our lives blaming others for the way we feel and holding them accountable for whether we are happy or not. No one can make us feel anything. It is our reactions to the behavior that causes our anger, resentment, pain and disappointment. When we blame others for our own negative reactions, we hand over all our personal power to that person and we loose ourselves.

Acceptance - Acceptance is the next key. We need to look at the reality of what has happened in the past and what is happening now. Many of us stumble in the beginning over the incorrect thought that acceptance means approval. Acceptance does not mean that we feel ok about current or past circumstances, it only means that we stop trying to change what we have no power over. We have no power over the past or the wayward spouse.

Even with acceptance, we need to grieve the losses caused by infidelity in our families and in our lives. Dreams have faded, bubbles have burst. Acceptance gives us two things - acceptance of our feelings and also acceptance of the fact that we cannot change the other person - healing from our loss and disillusion is an inside job.

The Three C's

Detaching with love is easier when we remember the three C's - we did not cause the infidelity in another, we cannot control the infidelity or the wayward spouse, we cannot cure the infidelity or the wayward spouse.

Cause - Infidelity is an addiction. Just as we cannot cause someone to develop diabetes, cancer, or any other disease, we do not have the power to cause anyone else to become addicted. Every addicted person blames others for their addiction and their use - this is their denial and their disease. Accepting that blame becomes our prison.

Control - Despite our best intentions and efforts, controlling other people does not work. Relationships cannot grow and intimacy cannot develop if one person is controlling the other. We only have control over ourselves and how we respond to situations, other people and their behavior. Trying to control other peoples behavior may temporarily make us feel better and give us an illusion of being in control - but in the long run, it does not work.

Cure - Only the wayward spouse can seek help for his/her addiction. No matter what we do, the treatment for the addiction is not ours to hand out.


Words that stand in the way of detaching:

Why??
What if??
Yes, but...
I can't...
I'll try...


Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.

What if??

What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.

Yes, but...

When we "yes but.." we are not listening to what others have to say. We are being self centered and self absorbed, and in essence saying we are so unique that what has worked for countless others will not work in our situation. Each time we "yes but" we are cooking up excuses inside our heads and our minds are closed.

I can't..

This is our biggest lie to ourselves. The truth is not that we can't, but that we won't. It is where we let fear have control over our lives.

I'll try.

The saying, "to try is to lie" refers to how easily we fall into making excuses. If we say, "I'll try" we lack commitment. "I'll try" allows us to bide our time while looking for an excuse not to do whatever we have said we'll try.


H.O.W.

HOW do we detach?

H - Honesty with ourselves and others.

O - Openness to hearing new ideas and breaking old ways of thinking and behaving.

W - Willingness to take risks and try something different.

Detaching with love does not mean that we stop caring. It simply means that we quit trying to control someone else and their behavior. We stop creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior. We stop lying to ourselves, we accept the reality of who the person is instead of focusing on who they "could" be.

--------------------
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~

Thanks for bumping this, BR. I will reply after I get back from church. This is sooooo helpful.

Ace

Gotta read and digest more of your post before I respond, BR. Thanks for your patience.

Ace

I guess I'll start with how I create comfortable ways for my DH to 'act out'.

Our basic modus operandi is so diabolically opposed that just functioning creates conflict, at least in the past. Here's an example: I balance our checkbook to the penny every month. DH has not balanced our other checkbook (both our names are on both accts. but I do the family checkbook and he does the fun checkbook) for years until recently. That's how he hid his financing of his A.

Tonight, he gave me a check to cover our vacation expenses now that the credit statement came in. He wrote it for more than I asked so I casually (and calmly) asked him when he last checked with the bank about the balance. He made a phone call and re-wrote the check because there is a substantial discrepancy in what his register says and what the bank auto system says.

Had I just cashed the check without questioning him, it would have bounced, incurring a $50 NSF fee. Did I control him? Or did I act responsibly for us? (He had a great attitude tonight and was very apologetic.)

How could I have created an environment that would have made such unacceptable behavior (writing a check without knowing how much is in the account) uncomfortable?

Thanks,
Ace

Tough one Ace.

I have the same problem EXCEPT H doesn't have another account, we have 1 and only 1 which I keep. Scares me sometimes that he doesn't have a clue, we're planning on going over our finances as soon as I can get it in a format that is logical for him.

I sure do hope some wise financial MB wizard comes along and gives some ideas..for you and me, because I want to use them when we do set our budget in a safe and open minded way.

bump

anyone have suggestions????

Hi Ace--

Given his tendency to not be as responsible as you with money, why is he responsible for the "other" checkbook?

Not talking about "responsibility" regarding his financing his affair, but responsible to balance it and know how much is in the account type of responsibility.

Is he responsible for the other checkbook to "share the burden" of financial management? to give him a sense of autonomy? so he doesn't feel like he has to ask you about major purchases?

Isn't your worry about him not responsibly tracking the account creating a burden on you? your marriage?

I'm not as good with money as my wife is. Simple fact.

I also don't spend as much as my wife does.

Part is historical -- she had part-time jobs in our early years when the kids were young and used the checkbook more that I did while I was at work (before these new-fangled debit card things). Made more sense for her to carry it. This has continued.

Occasionally, I take over the responsibility for balancing, paying bills, etc to give her a break. Usually she takes it back because I'm not doing it "her way" -- which is usually better than my way.

If "having" this account under his control is important to him or you don't want to take over balancing two checkbooks, then I might suggest one of two things:

1. You agree on a "checkbook balancing night" when both bank statements are available, you both sit down and balance both books together. If one statement has to sit for a week until the other arrives, you have to resist your urge to jump in and do it.

or

2. Help him move the account management to the computer. Many banks provide statements in the form of a download that is compatible with Quicken or MS-Money so you can balance it faster. It still requires him to enter the checks / deposits in the system, but it might provide him a better way to manage and balance it.

All this assumes that keeping accurate check on the finances and meeting your need of financial security (where this may be rooted) are both important to him.

It may be that he doesn't realize that this is not a trivial matter or "honest mistake" in your eyes.

Maybe some "out of the box" thinking to identify the root issue here is in order.

Blessings

Artor, I have a question for you, especially since you say you aren't the financial person in your household.

I'm trying to get my H involved in our finances, handling, knowing what's going on, the way I have the budget, etc. I am not apposed to changing anything except saving for future.

How have you and your W done this? Or how would you like to be broached with this type of info?

I want him to feel comfortable but involved also.
Thanks!

Hi Artor and mvg,


Great questions, Artor. The reasons for the other account have changed over the 12 years since we opened it. (I was commuting 3 hours full time, often staying overnight at my job 90 miles away .....so trying to juggle the one checkbook didn't work.)



mvg also asks great questions and I think I'll use both to bump the Affair$ $uck thread so we can keep this one about enabling and control (which can refer to financial management as well as other behaviors.)

In the meantime, my short answer to both questions is "I don't know". The long answer involves my laziness to confront the situation relating to Artor's questions.

****

To condense my example here are few questions with different scenarios:

If it is a known fact that your spouse has a certain habit (unbalanced checkbook) that is not as expedient for the relationship as the way you would do it (balanced checkbook), is it being controlling or responsible to ask about the habit and suggest a change?

If it is a known fact that your spouse has a certain habit (refusing to use car signals) that is not as expedient for the relationship as the way you would do it (using car signals), is it being controlling or responsible to ask about the habit and suggest a change?

If it is a known fact that your spouse has a certain habit (making piles not files) that is not as expedient for the relationship as the way you would do it (filing things immediately), is it being controlling or responsible to ask about the habit and suggest a change?

How does one 'make it uncomfortable for the unacceptable behavior' in these types of situations?

In the past, his standard answer was "unacceptable by your standards, but not mine". He does NOT do that anymore...says he wants to do everything my way....but that scares me, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I do NOT want to control him anymore.

Was it control or being responsible? Does 'being responsible' make controlling justifiable?

Thanks,
Ace

Ace--


Maybe I'm missing the gist of your statement, but isn't "making it uncomfortable" simply another form of control? Some type of operant conditioning that says, "Everytime you do X I want you to be uncomfortable."

Isn't the better case to express to your spouse how important "not doing X" is to you personally and your love bank and hope they make the appropriate adjustments?

I know that's not always possible or reasonable, but I'm not sure where the line is between control and "making it uncomfortable".

For your specific examples, I think the checkbook issue can be clearly tied to an Emotional Need and should be something that can be addressed by both.

The same thing, but to a lesser extent, goes for the "piles not files" concern, especially if the piles are of important documents or receipts or bills.

The turn signal one I'm not so sure about. Sure, it can be rude to not use turn signals and maybe dangerous, but I'm not so sure this isn't just an annoyance that justifies making him uncomfortable about.


I agree with your concern. If he "does it your way" to avoid making you unhappy or to avoid conflict, he may be slowly building resentment -- especially if he does A, B, and C your way and then you drop D, E and F on him as well.

Maybe perfecting the art of POJA is in order. He doesn't have to deal with the checkbook "your way" only.

Brainstorm ideas about how you can reach agreement on managing the checkbook or filing.

I'm sure he recognizes some papers are more important / different than others -- he's probably got a separate pile "somewhere around here" that's "important stuff".

Maybe the "files" aren't conveniently located and it's easier to make piles. Perhaps a smaller, easier to access file box near where he opens the mail or sorts through stuff could encourage him to file. I'm certainly guessing here, but these are actually things we've worked on in our marriage.

Blessings

Hi mvg--

"I'm not the financial person is my household"

This means I don't carry the checkbook (my wife always needed it more often), she reconciles it every month, she writes the checks for the bills.

But we do go over the budget together -- we have a spreadsheet that tracks our bills and breaks them up between the 1st and 2nd half of the month (old habit from military paydays).

If we are thinking about a major purchase, we discuss where to cut back or how much savings to use.

If we get a windfall we discuss how to use it (save, pay off debt, purchase, etc).

It may be the way things are in your house, but you said, "...the way I have the budget...".

He may not have been involved in creating the budget or managing it, but if both of your paychecks are used to support the budget, then the better way of looking at it is, "...the way OUR money is budgeted...".

Again, he may have been a silent partner or uninvolved, but it's still a budget he supports with a paycheck.

It's easy, as my wife and I both learned, for one spouse to assume too much ownership of the budget.

I applaud the fact you recognize this -- it should be a team effort.

If he claims he "doesn't have a head for money" or "doesn't want to be bothered" by the budget, then it probably has to start slow.

At the beginning of every month you might sit down with him and spend 20 minutes over coffee or dessert and look at the budget together or, as I've started doing, looking at where all the money went the previous month. I was surprised one month, as was my wife, at how much we spent eating out the previous month. A real shocker. Helped bring our spending back in line.

One other thought, and this is just a half-formed suggestion (that's my disclaimer), is approach him with a budget problem. If he's like me (and many guys) he's a fixer. Give me a problem and I'll help fix it. Ask him to help you respread the budget (if it needs it) or something like setting a long term goal: saving for a vacation (in addition to regular savings) or a new car or boat or TV or something would be a way to entice him to pay attention.

"Honey, I was thinking we could use a new TV (immediately you'll have his attention) and I was looking at flat screens at BestBuy. If we put aside some money every paycheck for XXX months, we could afford a nice one. Can we talk about how we can 'find' that money in our budget?"

My wife and I have had several successful conversations like that. Not about flat screen TVs, mind you, I still don't own one of those.

Just some thoughts, mvg.


The important part, in my opinion, is to keep it brief, non-confrontational and focused at first. Draw him in to wondering what really happens with the paycheck he brings home.

Blessings

Hi Artor,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I saw your reply on your Recovery thread and thought I'd try to clarify my issues here.

My question is regarding how to NOT control my husband while making sure we both doing things that are efficient and positive for our personal lives, marriage, family, jobs, etc. How do we know the difference between controlling and being responsible? You post helps regarding the checkbook issues but I'll address that on the Affair$ $uck thread.

In the meantime, you said about your wife on your Baaaaaad Weekend thread:


***

It seems the magic button would involve her saying "What boundaries can WE draw together so that WE can begin to rebuild your trust in me?" My DH has done that, but I fear he has overdone it.....possibly saying things and doing things he does not want to say/do, but stuffing his displeasure so "he doesn't get yelled at". I want him to want to do/say them....is that controlling, over controlling, or acting on too high of expectations?

To me, stuffing his true feelings just to please me is unacceptable behavior. I want to make it 'safe for him to share' and it seems I've failed at times. It appears I've made it 'comfortable for him to stuff his true feelings.' That's what I want to change in me.

***

Then you said on this thread:


***

I was referring to BrambleRose's Love with Detachment thread she bumped for me with the following quote:

***


Thanks, Artor....I think you've given me an Ahah! moment as to how I've misread BR's quote.

I think I've reversed her intention. Instead of "stopping creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior", I think I've been thinking I should 'create uncomfortable environments for unacceptable behavior'.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....now I have something else to ponder.

BR, are you out there? HELP!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your post, Artor......and for the new insights.

Ace

PS Please feel free to join mvg and I on the Affair$ $uck thread. If you haven't double posted, I'll move your ideas over there, too.

Artor Thanks for your suggestions. That just might be the ticket!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And I have to agree when 'I' take care of all the money spending I do feel it's mine and that's exactly what I want to change. It's not mine, it's ours. Thank you.

To me, stuffing his true feelings just to please me is unacceptable behavior. I want to make it 'safe for him to share' and it seems I've failed at times. It appears I've made it 'comfortable for him to stuff his true feelings.' That's what I want to change in me.
Oh Acey me too!!!!

I've tried to make it comfortable for him to confess things he used to hide before. Sometimes it works.

But I see how I've failed when he gets defensive. Help, .....wish we didn't have to wait the whole weekend to see our MC. (In the meantime, anyone else have any suggestions for mvg and me?

Thanks,
Ace

Hey Ace My H got defensive over 'something (EA) we were talking about last night, I had to remind him I know it hurts him but he about killed me. I asked him to not get so defensive, just speak don't hold it in. We'll see...men are such weird characters (sorry guys).

Morning MVG!

I'm definitely NOT a financial wizard, but Mrs. RIF and I are using Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover plan and it works for us...

Dave is a big proponent of BOTH spouses working on the family budget...

Dave Ramsey.com

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF. I'm want to be a big propoent of BOTH working on, it's too much for 1 person to be responsible for.

Things quiet for you there?

Hey countdown has begun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> for your R&R!

Hey, I resemble that remark -- Men, weird, character -- yep -- that's me.

So, mvg, how did the conversation start about his EA?

I ask because I don't think the fact that your husband is a man is driving his defensiveness or unwillingness to talk.

I think it's the fact he was the wayward spouse.

At least, if I compare it to my situation -- my wife is not a man (something I'm really happy about) but she gets defensive when any topic that relates to her affairs is broached.

She was the most defensive and resistant to sharing when the topic just came up or I sprung it on her.

I came to the point and conclusion that I needed to allow her at least the illusion she had some control over the timing of the conversations.

We tried the, "set aside a specific, regular time every week to discuss the affairs / marriage / etc". She came to dread that time and make snide comments about it.

So the approach that has worked for me thus far that keeps her from going into DEFCON (Defensive Conversation) Mode 5 and locking down is to say, "I'd really like to discuss something and would like to know when you'd feel up to talk about it."

She knows it relates to our marriage / her affairs / the fallout because I approached her this way.

She has the option to say, "Not now -- how about tonight" or "OK, now's a good time".

She usually "wants to get it over with" and agrees to talk then, but I do give her the option to postpone it until later.

You might try it -- it makes it clear that you need to talk and won't be swayed from discussing the issue, but you give them the latitude to choose a reasonable time.

The other thing we've learned is when a conversation that started out NOT being about an uncomfortable subject suddenly strays into "affair talk", I try to stop it and say, "This is going somewhere else -- maybe we should talk about THAT aspect later" (if it's something either of us thinks is worth chasing).

It's hard sometimes because, as the betrayed spouse, we sometimes feel that we DESERVE to discuss this most painful experience anytime, anywhere for any reason. We have a RIGHT to talk and our wayward spouse has a RESPONSIBILITY to participate.

And, for the most part, I agree -- we do have a RIGHT to discuss it, but we've got to be careful we don't abuse that right and beat our spouse over the head with it.

Just my thoughts.

Blessings

Well said Artor!

You've described what I mean when I talk about making a "Safe" place for your spouse... We BS's do have a "right" to get answers to our questions... but if you want to rebuild, then you have a Responsiblity to treat your spouse with love and respect.

I see many newly BS here that have a hard time dealing with this concept. I had a hard time as well... I think that if you look at the couples that eventually DO rebuild their M, you'll find that this is one of the key elements that the BS must overcome in order to rebuild the M.

Hey MVG - Dave has a solid plan and he explains how to most couples have a "nerd" that likes dealing with money, and the other one could care less... He even gives example on how to get the 'reluctant' spouse involved... He has several books and his website has a lot of good information as well...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Artor, you're so funny. Please pop in sometime to our Recovery Vacation thread. RIF's the night watchman and mvg carries the early morning shift when RIF drifts off!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've enjoyed your updates on your recovery thread, Artor. When is your next (if ever) MC session?

***

Defensiveness. I failed in that dept. last night. My H was remorseful and repentive an hour later but I feel like I made him defensive.....gotta ask those questions right so they don't feel like they're being beaten over the head. Obviously, I haven't learned that yet.

It's that control thing. I'm in a Catch 22. Here's what happened. (I was gonna post it on Trials & Smiles, but it fits here.)

We see MC every 6 weeks and except for the near meltdown on our vacation, we've done really well since our last session Oct. 31. (That blowup turned out to be a good thing~~~did you see my poem about it, Artor?)

Anyhow, I saw some deleted emails about non-A habits DH is striving to overcome. Our agreement is that he will tell me when he opens any of these and NOT empty his trash until I've seen them.

He didn't tell me before I found two of them in his trash.

I called MC to ask if we should see him sooner or later. We have an appt. for Monday, but he suggested I try to approach DH on this to see if we could take care of it ourselves.

When I first brought up the "is this a good time, I have a question," DH turned off the TV and was all ears right then.

But he got increasingly uncomfortable. I backed off.

I tried, I failed. When DH got defensive, I withdrew saying "I only ask because I care, Fine, I won't ask anymore." ( I know, I gaslighted......aaargh!!! don't tell LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

We'll have MC help us if we can't get it together before Monday.

Control. By asking the question calmly, I must have tried to control him. Or did I? I thought I was making it 'safe for him to share'....he has before. But not last night.

So goes another chapter....

Any blazing ideas?

Ace

Artor, more on my EA conversation here What happened?

It's hard sometimes because, as the betrayed spouse, we sometimes feel that we DESERVE to discuss this most painful experience anytime, anywhere for any reason. We have a RIGHT to talk and our wayward spouse has a RESPONSIBILITY to participate.
I agree totally with you. The conversation didn't start out A talk, was just my sharing feelings unfortunately A came up as an example of what we were talking about...MY needs.

We got through it after BOTH of us recognizing what was happening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I feel we crossed a bridge together.

Ace, when H raised his voice and body language indicated anger, I too backed down ...told H never mind doesn't even matter. You know what he said???? Yes it does matter! (YIKES) We were able to continue our conversation, I knowing he was uncomfortable, he knowing I was hurting...it came out wonderful.

I kept repeating to my H this is how I FEEL, this is NOT blaming you, I need your help. I asked him if he I made him feel like the bad guy or was beating up on him, he said honestly NO. He took what I had to say so well, expect for that one little LB..ok and my DJ.

I hope that helps you in some way. (((ACE)))

So glad to hear this, mvg.



Thanks for the hug and for sharing. It really blesses me to see you guys making progress. I look at our present challenge as an opportunity to overcome something that will give me empathy with future posters who experience it.

So glad to hear about your bridge crossing and continued conversations, mvg. This does help me in a big way.

Ace

This is really good, mvg. I'm happy for you. Enjoy the good feelings.

Quick response Ace -- gotta run --


No, I certainly don't think asking a question calmly is a form of control (except self-control). It is a healthy way to approach the topic. Sure if you screamed the question at him or used an intimidating tone of voice it could be a form of control, but that's not the case here.

In my opinion (and there are others on here with more educated opinions), CONTROL is evidenced mostly in the wording we choose to use, body language and other non-verbals.

Don't know if any of these were the case, but sometimes when a person is cornered and know they are "caught", they'll go into a defensive posture no matter how "polite" we are.

If your husband has been spending a significant amount of time "always" admitting he was wrong -- "it was my fault", "I'm sorry", "You deserve better than me", "Whatever you say, dear" ... he may be getting to the tipping point where any resentment or frustration with "always being wrong" is reaching it's limit.

I think that's can actually be a good thing for a former wayward spouse who has been beating themself up for their mistakes and letting their Giver have control in deference to the betrayed spouse.

They're starting to re-seek balance and equity.

Ace (OK, this isn't so short) -- the topics of him balancing the checkbook and making piles not files -- those really don't have anything to do with his affair, right? Sure he may have used money from the account to finance his affair, but he still wouldn't have balanced the checkbook even if he didn't have the affair, right?

Do conversations about these marital differences sometimes / usually roll around to insinuations or references to his affair?

I really don't know how controlled you are -- I know I personally have a problem separating the affair-related issues from the non-affair related issues in our marriage.

I think it's because the affairs hurt so much that it makes me much less tolerant of the other issues.

Don't know if you're struggling with this -- I know I do, but my wife seems to do the same thing -- when we're talking about a non-affair related marital issue, she balls up like an armadillo.

Now I really have to run.

Blessings

Hey Acey,

Part of being honest requires you to share your TRUE feelings.

In your example, you started off well by asking your DH if now was a good time to talk... Then when you could sense that your DH was becoming defensive you "withdrew" your HONEST feelings.

One of the things that I learned from our MC was that I had to let Mrs. RIF know my TRUE feelings, and then it was up to HER to process it and deal with it. The same was true for me, Mrs. RIF had to let me know HER true feelings and then it was MY responsiblity to deal with it.

I know that we've been talking about making a "safe" place for our spouses, but "safe" isn't the same thing as "honest". In my mind, safe means that I'm not blowing up at Mrs. RIF with DJs or LBs... when we were dealing with the past A's, 100% of my questions were VERY uncomfortable for Mrs. RIF. The hard questions and the "pain" of answering just comes with rebuilding...

I hope this makes some sense... if not, I'll try to explain it again...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Great points, Artor and RIF. Will respond later.

Thanks,
Ace

Ace,

I see the control, but not where you might think.



You think you have the power to control his response? You are not responsible for his reaction. He is.

I see you beating yourself over the head because of something he chose to do. He's a grown man. He has the choice to respond with defensiveness or to listen openly and he is responsible for the consequences that come with each of those choices.

Hey Acey - I know you're taking a break... just wanted to check in with 'ya and see how the MC session went...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF, Froz, Artor and all....

We had the most intense MC session ever. It went very well considering. It will take me a bit to process all that happened but I will post it later either here or on the Smiles and Trials 2 Recovery Thread.

Thanks all for your interest, concern and prayers.

Ace

I haven't forgotten you, RIF, Artor or Froz, but I only had time to post my intense MC session update on the Smiles & Trials 2 thread. Will be back here to comment later.

Thanks for your patience,
Ace

Hey Acey!

I read your other thread!

Great Job!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

Artor, Froz, RIF, mvg, others.....

Thanks for your patience and sorry it took me so long to get back to you all. The defensiveness issue grew later that day when DH blatantly covered up and lied about health issues, in spite of our POJA to confide in each other re: medical issues before seeking pro help (details on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread.) This is due to his withholding and lying about an ER visit related to heart issues which I discovered on D-Day #1 while looking for evidence of his A. My responses will be related to his prior defensiveness as well as his cover up and lies.

Artor said:


He actually confirmed this in our MC session. And the fact that I stayed calm and controlled while MC was 'lecturing' him seems to have pulled the remaining fog scales from his eyes. I posted on my Smiles and Trials 2 thread that he seems to see me in a different light than before he lied.

*********************

Froz said:


You're so wise, Froz. DH and discussed 'why he lied' and the predominant reason was in rebellion for my attempts to control him and his stuffing his real feelings. So my greatest fears (him blowing up after stuffing feelings) were realized involving a trivial lie* and not a reconnection with OW. THANK GOD!!!!! (And thank you Froz for your renter/buyers thread)

* Froz points out in a subsequent post that there is no such thing as a "trivial lie". This sentence should state that my DH chose to commit a series of serious lies about a trivial matter. Thanks to Froz.

****************************************

RIF said:


RIF, my withdrawing of my feelings regarding my DH suspected lying was to await MC's help. So I vented via email, withdrew from the forums for the weekend and focused on meeting DH's needs for the next few days.

But the end result gives us a new foundation upon which to follow through on sharing honest feelings. I would love more input on how you differentiate between "safe" and "honest".

Thanks to all for your insights. Amazingly, DH now says that he sees me as caring, not controlling. I no longer need to try to control because he shows how much he cares and values me. It's actually a positive Catch 22.....and I have no idea how it happened....oh yeah, DH finally blew..... and by the grace of God and our insightful tough MC, we're back on the rails of recovery....well...for today, at least!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace

P.S. Maybe DH now gets it...time will tell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey Acey - Nothing 'earthshattering'...

In my mind, safe is where our spouse knows that our response will be in a loving, respectful manner... no LB, no yelling or screaming...

honest - means that we tell our spouse our TRUE feelings, even if we know that is going to hurt them.

Hope that makes sense...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I have to ponder this a bit before replying, RIF. Thanks for explaining it but I do have a question. (When I figure out how to word it, I'll ask.)

Ace

What is a trivial lie?

If it's trivial, why lie?

If a person will lie about an issue that isn't earth shattering, wouldn't it seem logical that they would lie about some that IS earth shattering?

While dishonesty might not mean that a spouse is having an affair, IMO it means that your marriage is not affair-proof and therefore is very vulnerable to an affair.

For me, it is living in a marriage where that sort of protection is not being provided that is unacceptable, rather than another affair itself.

Pre-MB I didn't have any knowledge of these concepts. Pre-MB I didn't feel as though I had the right to question my safety if I couldn't prove that I wasn't being protected.

Now I know better.

Now I know that real protection is to have no question in my mind that I am safe.

And I am not safe in a marriage where dishonesty exists at all. Those grounds are far too fertile to offer any sort of safety or protection.

Good point, Froz and I'll clarify and then fix the above post. DH chose to commit a series of serious lies about a very trivial matter.

The good thing is he said he has an appt. to meet with his mentor next week. Last year, he was withholding issues like this from his mentor that I did not discover until I met with mentor's wife (who had gotten the impression that all was peachy fine). We did not have an MC at the time so I had to confront DH about it alone.....hence I could not keep the lid on the LBs that flew out of my mouth (and head and hands and knees and feet...etc.) This was pre-MB so that was par for the course.

Anyhow, when DH said he had this appt. set up (usually every other week), I merely said "Oh"....but I thought I might call mentor's wife like I did last year.

In the next moment, however, DH said "I'm going to bring this up to see if he did the same stupid stuff." (Mentor had been a serial cheater when W D'd him, but they remarried 2 years later 37 years ago.)

I asked "What stupid stuff are you referring to?"

DH said "This appt. and why I covered it up and lied about it. And how awesome you've been and so supportive of me in my stupidity....."

WOWOWOWOW! This is a new step for us.....total transparancy seems imminent if hasn't already arrived.

Thanks for reading, Froz and for posting this important discrepancy.


Safety, protection, trust after a major breach......someone on MB said s/he is working on a post to define this and how it might differ for Christians who put their trust in God and non-Christians who can only trust on their own (or other) resources. I'm curious about this perspective.

Thanks,
Ace

I am very curious to read that post, as well.

A lot of times I read posts that state that the Christian perspective is to forgive all sin. Biblically, that is a misinterpretation.

Paraphrasing, the Bible says that while we should forgive sin, it is foolish to reconcile with someone who has not changed course.

I agree with you, Froz. My problem is with having the ability to know whether or not the person has changed course when I'm not sure if I can trust that the person has been remorseful and repented for the sin.

My question relates to whether or not blind trust is gone forever after betrayal of the marriage vows.

Does its status in the marriage relationship differ whether one is a Christian or not?

I had asked this poster to put his extensive thoughts on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread, but maybe I'll ask that it be posted here, too.

It seems like the answers could relate to the issue of control and enabling, too.

Ace

Hey Acey! - Ok, another 'serious' question... I'm not nearly as eloquent as FH, but I'll give it a try...

When you say "Blind Trust" I'm assuming that you are referring to Blind Trust that your DH won't hurt you again by having another A...

For me, there is no more "Blind Trust" that Mrs. RIF won't hurt me again by having another A. I don't think that she will, but I have no illusions that she's not CAPABLE of having another A.

I will say that I don't worry about Mrs. RIF having another A because I know that we have both given our lives to Christ and that HE is at the center of our M. I trust Christ to lead and guide me as I lead and guide our family. I know that with Christ at the center of our M, that Mrs. RIF and I can and will be stronger and will be able to fight off any attacks on our M.

If one of us willfully decides to place our focus or trust on anything else, then it is possible to stray.

I probably didn't answer your question... but hopefully, I've given you something to think about.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Ace, I have to think on things LA has said on Blind Trust. If I'm remembering correctly we should've never believed in blind trust to begin with. Blind trust is just that BLIND. I personally now think we have to trust with our eyes wide open. If you don't have your eyes wide open how can you miss the potholes?

disclaimer: If I have misquoted LA's explanation, I plead the 5th.

Ace,

I agree with RIF and mvg.

And I don't view the lack of blind trust as uncaring. In fact, I believe the contrary to be true. Keeping an eye on your marriage means that you are willing to do your part in protecting it. I think it is an act of care.



I'm right there with ya and boy do I understand that statement.

Probably the biggest initial indicator to me that someone is not changing course is the lack of taking personal responsibility.

When I see WS's who are blaming anyone but themselves for the consequences of their actions, displaying self-pity, and complaining about how the consequences of their choices are affecting THEM it tells me that their sympathies are for themselves and the remorse they feel is that they got caught and that their sense of entitlement is ever-present, otherwise I don't see how they could possibly manage to view themselves as some sort of victim.

For as long as any of the above elements are present, I don't see how that person could possibly even begin to change course because it isn't likely that someone will change what they don't own as their property. Why would someone change if they view someone else as the problem?

If you were truly remorseful and took full responsibility for your actions...what would that look like?

If I were remorseful and serious about changing, I would not:

Complain about how sucky my life was in the presence of my victim...how disrespectful and inconsiderate would THAT be?

Procastinate cleaning up my mess and allowing my victim (who was willing to put forth effort at rebuilding something that I destroyed) to deal with the consequences that they didn't cause for any longer than was absolutely necessary. I would show my remorse by making it my highest priority.

I wouldn't disrespect them by rebelling against transparency. How cruel is it to allow someone who is willing to give me another chance (which I am not owed) to live in fear?

I wouldn't disrespect my victim by expecting them to shoulder the burden of consequences for a choice I made...meaning if I had an affair with some guy at a bar, I wouldn't continue to go to bars and tell my spouse that they were being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with it.

I could go on, but I imagine you get the general picture.

Procastinate cleaning up my mess and allowing my victim (who was willing to put forth effort at rebuilding something that I destroyed) to deal with the consequences that they didn't cause for any longer than was absolutely necessary. I would show my remorse by making it my highest priority.

Oh Froz you hit the nail on the head for me!

My question is how long before a WS does this? My H is making positive changes in how he treats me but won't go that extra mile to inquiry as to what I NEED to see his remorse. Does that make sense?

I'm the one who had to push for Counseling, which didn't work. I'm the one who found MB which he agreed to but doesn't put into action. He read the info, nodded his head, filled out the ENQ's and that's it. He will still say the EA is an open wound if I need to talk about something that relates to it.

Is there a normal 'time period' that THEY take the initiative?

Not to discourage you, mvg....but it seems my DH has FINALLY done this......(made my recovery top priority).

.....after he lied recently and got busted, it SEEMS that he finally tired of the heaviness .......of having something to hide.

He said he lied partially because I seemed to want to control him and he tried to see if he could escape undetected.

But, with God's help (a 'sign' from the Vacation thread discussion) I discovered it BEFORE our regular (6 week) MC session.

Whooo Hooooo! It's been a week and he is sooooooo much more intense in his recovery efforts. It wasn't fun to be tubed by our MC in front of me. That was his lowest of low points....and it happened only 8 days ago. YIKES. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Without the help I've received from this thread, I think I might have sabotaged the process. But I KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT and let MC lecture......mind you SCOLD DH for at least 20 minutes. (DH was so devastated, he offered me a D and posession of everything during the session.) MC really helped us get back on track, calling it a setback, but not an insurmountable one.

I just saw on your thread that you're not in MC now, mvg. Even if it didn't work previously there must be more MC's than the one you went to. I would be gone (or he would be) without our present MC.....and MB.

Ace

Better MC than you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm learning, Froz.....also thanks for the buyers/renters thread you started. Still working on those concepts.

Keeping mouth shut is a huge milestone for me. MC noticed and so did DH.

Thanks,
Ace

You're very welcome, Ace. I'm glad it was helpful. If you have any questions, I'm bored and trying to avoid housework. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Keeping mouth shut...now there is one of my NOT strong skills.

I may have kept mouth shut, but I did not disengage LB brain...if ya know what I mean!

I must have caught myself a dozen times, trying to chime in with MC....yeahhhhh...that's right.......you go, MC.....but I refrained. But later after DH left, MC said "you did great, but your eyes were dancin'" ..... He's toooo good at reading body language.

While we patiently await the post I referred to above, I'd love to hear how the MB seminar helped you regarding your relationship with Patriot and "Cheerleading/Enabling/Controlling" concepts. (Does that question raise your housework on the priority list?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gotta go to work....I'd much rather do your housework!!!

Ace

mvg-
for my FWH to get on it- came from an issue not directly affair related - but it kinda was. our agreement after Dday was he would be home by 7 or a phone call should take place. I finally stopped mothering him . . . calling at 6 or 630 to see how far out he was to start dinner . . . I was not allowing him to regain my trust. . . so I KEPT my mouth shut and waited for him not to call.

Then I inquired if he remembered the agreement and still thought it was workable. His yes statement then allowed me to inform him I have 3 kids not 4- it was time for him to step up and take responsiblity for himself and do his part in the marriage. I also pointed out that to me by him to agreeing to what he felt was aceptable was being placing himself back in his world of Mr. AM world- where only his needs exist. So for two weeks he has been better about this- as well he has been working on providing other EN of mine- which makes it sooo easy to put deposits in his account. NOW thats a great cycle to be in.

AM

So, about that housework... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

amartini that is a good cycle! I might have to take a page out of your book...I'll think on it. Thanks for your input.

Keeping mouth shut has been one of the HARDEST things I have to do. I've done very well (pat on back), not perfect but very well.

Honestly- it was artor who pointed out that if I never gave my FWH a chance to be trusted I could never learn to retrust him again (of course trusting with eyes WIDE open)

And yes the mouth shut kills me- I have so many little DJ's about the OW and affair junk (which are funny IMO) but I try to keep them to myself.

I tend to have that little conversation in my head- will what I am about to say help or hurt. . . then I decided what I should do.

I do struggle with handicaping all the boys in my house- you know sometimes it's just easier to do it myself- then to use my energy (mental usually) to negotiate with them all. I am whipped- living with three boys and a man- oh!
AM

Y'know, Artor posted to my first thread nearly 12 hours after I hit submit....I nearly gave up. Decided to check my goose egging thread one last time about 2 AM and there was one little post by Artor. He's helped us tremendously.

Glad he's helped you, too AM. Sure hope things are looking up for his wife and him.

Ace

I know- I hope no news means good news.

Yes he, LA and Lgolfer have helped alot. Now I just wish I could have one day- 24 hours that I don't have some sort of thought that I am married to someone who was unable to keep his rocket in his pocket! Amnesia for a day would be great! Wish he could give me that for Christmas.

My deep fear in all this mess- is that I will never ever get over the hurt (yes it is subsiding- but it is there everyday)- sometimes I just think I would be so happier if I was just not in this situation. But then I look at my list of pros for staying with him and I think- hmmm there are more positives than negatives- and that darn love thing. You know my self defeating attitude is what kills me- I hate that. Oh well just a little venting.

Have a good one- I am working on cleaning the house and just popped in for a 10 min. break.
AM

My clipboard is acting up...gotta reboot. I'll repost after.

LA

Didya get that clipboard rebooted or fixed yet, LA?

Acey

I hope LA's computer isn't dead.

Well I'll be...I CANNOT rate this again! NO star option that I can find. Darnit!!!

We NEED the 5 (FIVE) stars back....this could cause some serious problems with the OCD folks if it stays at 1. Come on someone rate to 5 pleeeeaaassseee?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmmm. mvg. What's the deal with that? Here [color:"orange"] *****[/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think I've seen LA posting, but maybe she just can't cut and paste anything.

Yooo Whoooo...LA...are you out there? (Does your star rating button work.....mvg is having a fit here.)

Acey

I just rated it 5 stars, but it didn't show up!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How does the star system work? Do lots of people rate it and the average is what shows on the screen?

Hi Saturn.......how ya doin?

I rated a thread once and it showed up right away. (Can't remember for the life of me which one and whether or not the rating still stands, but it's not worth bothering Justuss about when she has so many other things to do.)

Thanks for trying. This thread has helped me soooo much that of any thread I've started, this one definitely deserves 5 stars..... (that way it might help more posters struggling with enabling/controlling issues than without the stars).

I didn't give much credence to the star rating system at first when I saw Idiotville was rated a 3 star....of course I resented that thread (before I realized what RIF said about it being an enticement for veterans to return) so the 3 stars seemed like an insult to me then. But not now...it doesn't really matter that much....except to mvg!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gotta love ya, mvg! Thanks for the kudos....those are worth far more than 5 measley stars!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Acey

[color:"orange"] * * * * *[/color]
Ha! not the gold stars but better than nothing! LOL


I just didn't want to send any OCD friends into a 'fit'! LOL LOL LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I had another challenge involving my progress with NOT being a controller. I did it....but still had a horrible trial.

It's on my Smiles and Trials 2 recovery forum thread.

I remembered things from this thread and the renters thread...sorta, except when I forgot them and LB'd. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Oh Ace I hear ya. I struggled all last week with wanting to CONTROL. Thankfully SL and LovingAlong really hung with me and I made it through! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Glad you made it through, mvg. Baby step by baby step...one at a time....we'll all make it.

Hey Froz.......if you're reading this, FH posted a new thread on the Recovery forum regarding the question brought up regarding whether being a Christian or not will affect the restoration of trust and enhance the possibility for rebuilding trust to pre-A levels.

I mentioned that it might fit here, but I'm now glad he posted it where he did.

Thanks,
Ace

SerenitySoon was looking for this thread.

HAPPY NEW YEAR