WH has agreed and thinks MB is a good & logical program and willing to participate. His IC wasn't working, not a good fit with counselor. The problem? He puts off and off and off filling out the questionaires. Took several weeks to do the ENQ, and now several more weeks have gone by and no LBQ. (I think we should've done the LB 1st, I plead ignorance on this). I wrote him a note asking if he was still willing to participate and if so when. He told me last night he will start working on it tonight.

He has been more attentive however is not meeting my most important EN's. I am meeting his EN's according to the ENQ.

What am I doing wrong? Should I just drop it and see IF he decides to participate. I felt like I was pushing him to fill these out to quickly but I give him weeks and it just doesn't happen. During the weeks that it's taking I don't mention them at all, then my weakness will kick in and I ask do you still want to do this. No answer, just I'll do it tonight/tomorrow/this weekend.

I'm not sure how to interpret this behavior? I don't know what to do or not do, and I'm starting to feel like this is a lost cause- that there is no committment from him.

I'm so tired of being in limbo. It's really draining my love for him. And right now I can't come up with any reasons why I love him (Is that a normal BS feeling?) other than we've been together forever.

Help.

forgive me pleaes if I am a little abrupt here.

you wrote him a note?


eh? ( and no I am soo not canadian)

here's what you could do-talk to him ask him-be assertive-piss on your carpet.

how's

Honey, I am feeling a little pissed off you have not filled out your doodahhs, I would appreciate after all the effort I have put in and the promises you gave me , a little more input from you.

if not procratinate somewhere else.

thanx

xoxox

Peace

Max

and Max how would that conversation not been a LB? I AM PI$$ED and that would have come across.

Yes I could've verbally asked him...I'm tired of the excuses, so I wrote him a note to actually give him time to think about it...ok either he wants to participate or not.

I wasn't asking if the note was appropriate I was asking about HIS procrastination and what others thought that might be. Ok my antenna is up, my gut reaction isn't good, however I'm anxious so I'm asking for other MBer's opinion.

And just for what it's worth, I ususally am that up front.

ohh buggar love busters.

if you are tired, you are tired


stop procrastinating woman

do something about it

later

Max
ps. edit...don't ya hate it when you can't spell

Hey Max what's your story? You seem pretty direct to the point of being agressive. I don't get where you are coming from, it doesn't seem to be the MB principals you are applying.

Yes I can be direct with WH, I can get down right pissy with him, but is that going to help me in the long run? Yes I want him to s$$t or get off the pot but that's NOT what I'm suppose to do according to MB is it?

Do you think I'm just being whiney about my situation? It's pretty serious to me.

You can't "make" your H do anything. You aren't responsible for "getting" him to fill out the questionnaires.

But you can - and should - tell him how you feel.

"I noticed that you haven't gotten around to filling out the questionnaires, although you agreed to. It's really frustrating to me when you don't do what you say you'll do."

"Honey, we agreed that this program would help us save our marriage. You don't seem to be really participating, though, unless I nag you about it. I don't like nagging, but I feel like otherwise we stall out and don't make any progress. I think that our marriage depends on both of us making this a priority."


And be ready with your boundary enforcements if he doesn't want to do it. Decide if this is a make-or-break thing for you, and how you will react. You can't control him, you can only control you. Maybe you make an appointment and start seeing an MC who will walk you both through each step and hold him accountable. Maybe you can brainstorm with him other ways to keep him accountable. Maybe he needs things presented differently -- like the home study course or an MB weekend or talking to one of the Harley's.

Communicate your feelings (and notes may be easier, but talking to him and then listening to how he feels might get more accomplished) and figure out your boundaries and what you'll do if he crosses them. That's pretty much all you can do until someone develops a remote control that controls your spouse and makes them do what you want (yikes, that sounds a little scary....).

-AmI.

I am very much; get with the program-or get

I learnt that early on.

And no…I don’t think you are being whiny.

I think you have a predicament

And I know you know what to do.

Soo stop procrastinating.

sHoW nO FeAr

And set your boundaries.

Peace

Max

Well, if hubby has spent most of his life being self-centered, it will be hard for him to change now.

I suggest counseling, with the Harleys if you can afford it. He needs to start on some kind of recovery plan. And he probably needs to hear it from someone besides you.

Thank you for you input. I guess it's over. My heart is breaking tho.

Why do you say it is over?

Your husband is being pretty much the typical WS. They would prefer to sweep it all under the rug, and continue life with no consequences or work.

But that is not the way to a real recovery. That is why you need to tell him that you want to go to counseling for a recovery plan, because it isn't happening. He needs to hear it from someone other than you.

The affair is over, so I am hopeful. You are still very early in this. Don't settle for anything less than a much better marriage than you had before.

You can't make him do anything.

If he won't do the work of recovery, shouldn't that be a boundary?

You state what you need (ask for what you need) and if he can't/won't pony up, you impose the consequences.

I posted this wondering if this was normal WH behavior. I posted this wondering is my reaction normal. I posted this hoping to have responses that might help me decide how I should act...keep being pleasant, trying, while keeping boundaries or start hard nosing. I know I can't MAKE him do anything...thats obvisious (sp?), and I don't want to.I NEED him to WANT to do this.

I don't plan on settling. That's part of the problem, I allowed myself to settle for less than what was possible and it didn't get me where I thought it would! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> In the past I have had to beg for help,love, attention, affection and even with that most of the time it was just indifference.

We can't afford the Harley's. I don't think he'll do MC but that's on the table for him to decide. I don't think he'll change. He's still turning the tables and blaming/guilting me.

When I talk to him about my En's, he's saying he's trying, but can't change over night. However, I'm NEVER suppose to talk about how his sorted EA effects me, that's just throwing it in his face.

Thanks for letting me vent. Bad go around last night so who knows if he'll even be here when I get home from work.

Believer, is it ok if I use this thread to just post my ventings sorta like a journal or do you think it would be better not to do that here?

Yes if he won't do recovery that should be a boundary. My question was HOW LONG should you wait before imposing the consequence?

I'm an impatient person, if something needs done I do it. He's not like that. So while I'm wondering what's going on with him and his delay I hesitate because I am an impatient person and am trying to be reasonable with someone who I'd like to choke till his eyeballs popout at times.

In a nutshell, is this normal, how long do I wait for him to get with it, do I wait it out, or do I say enough is enough and move on?

Mvg,

Pre-A, did he procrastinate?

LA

Yup

However that has been brought to his attention again and again especially since EA. I don't understand why except either could care less or lazy. Neither are acceptable anymore and he knows that. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO is this his way of saying to me I don't want this M anymore BUT wants me to be the one to say it?

I also wonder if by avoiding he thinks I'll just eventually forget it, and get back to the old marriage? I keep telling him old is GONE never to be seen again, it's either NEW BETTER IMPROVED or over.

I'm really down. I can't, don't even want to, pull this M wagon by myself anymore.

So this isn't A-related...it's about him, within him, mvg?

I link procrastination to passive-aggressive behaviors. I found it in myself...and rooted around until I got down to a really old voice in my head...and it said...

"You can't tell me what to do."

Took me way back. My DH had sometimes intense P/A behaviors. Through MC and focus, he realized at the seat of his procrastination was making agreements he didn't really agree to...

If he had said to you, "I don't want to fill out the EN questionnaire and I fear not agreeing to do it," what would you have said?

I'm trying to bring a lot of stuff we were learning at the time together, and it's difficult for me. Everything affected other things...

I was learning about my own LBs, how to be safe without sacrifice, and working on my resentment.

Things I know occurred around that time:

We learned that the "shoulds" are dangerous to a relationship. We stopped shoulda on each other. Used that word as a signal...now, we even chuckle when we hear it from ourselves or the other.

We learned about the pursuer/distancer relationship as part of the should-thing. I learned that what I felt when he shut me out was as intensely painful to him when he felt engulfed, taken over...demanded of.

That was big.

In hindsight, each agreement my DH had made to do something which he didn't really agree with, was made from his fear of consequences...he felt choiceless. My disappointment was painful to him. So he would agree to avoid the disappointment temporarily, and distract until I ran out of gas. It was our cycle, not just his...

I had to really look at my expectations of him...to do what he said he was going to do...wasn't unreasonable. What I wasn't prepared to do was to accept him NOT agreeing to do something that was important to me.

Had to find my half of that loop we were caught in and stop.

I took a lesson from the pursuer/distancer dance and stopped pursuing, even his agreements. I shared only...no requests. What he volunteered to do was accepted by me...without expectation of it being done.

This was really difficult for me. When my focus was consumed on him, what he was and wasn't doing, it was exceedingly difficult. When my focus was strongly on me, my half, it was easier, daily.

This wasn't me earning blamelessness...this was me really seeing where I expected him to fix what was in me...which was mine...way back, long before I met him.

To me, it's the groundwork which must come before the EN-meeting gets really going...it's the cause behind the symptoms.

My DH does not procrastinate, and hasn't, in two years. It's amazing, really, given this was his automatic habit...an unconscious boundary enforcement which ham-stringed him...what he wrestled with within himself, for most of his 44 years.

I didn't cure him of it, wasn't the cause or control of it. We were side by side through this change...I was there to hear...to share my own discoveries in the places I ran into "You can't tell me what to do." Working out my own P/A behaviors.

He keeps his promises. He does more than that now...he keeps his promises to himself.

Took me understanding what respect really is...and that my part, taking his lack of action, his procrastination, his feelings, thoughts, perceptions as about me...was half of the dance we did.

Stop dancing.

Work on your own LB's...assumptions are very sneaky...they become our habits, under our own radars, and they kick our own butts. Measuring, judging, examining...see if your thought-time is more on doing this than discovering within yourself.

Like getting clean before intrepreting behaviors...learning to listen authentically (to know, not to fix/change/get)...I believe it's teaching ourselves how to really partner, and stop our parenting ways.

That's the trigger...old FOO in DH...same as within me. Wasn't us doing it to each other...we first did it to ourselves.

LA

LA,
That's alot to digest. And I want to really think on what you've said carefully before I respond.

I do DEEPLY appreciate your responding.

I am in a deep deep hole and am trying to think through/separate my issues from his issues from OUR issues and work on them.

I hope you'll still be around after I've thought this through. THANK YOU

Gosh, mvg...I'm like gum on MB's shoe. I'll be here.

And a hole is a great way to visualize those loops...surrounding you. You can practice your way out of it.

LA

LA,

I, too, am in the same place as mvg, with NC established in early June.

I have read carefully what you posted and would like you to elaborate. Did you NOT ask anything of your FWH? Are we not to ASK for what we need? Are we to continue waiting for them to get it on their own, no MC, no IC, no friends to talk to, no books read, nothing outside of themselves.

Do you agree that BOTH parties need to engage in the marriage and not just their own personal recovery?

I hear a lot about making personal changes, for which I have and continue to do. I also give to my H in whatever way he is receptive, and do ask for what I need. I assume nothing, and when I do, I come here and get thwacked and learn and grow and move on.

I just wonder how long to continue doing this before results begin to be seen. I can recover personally, of that I'm sure. I cannot recover a M without some sign from my FWH that this is his choice, and he's not just WAITING for things to change.

Since mvg needs to have a similar conversation, I thought it would be good to post my questions here. If you would like to carry this over to my thread, that's cool too.

Your post above sounds promising, I just want to know HOW to accomplish this.

SL,

I know you're hearing this as an unending nothing...an extreme. It's not. Sure can feel like that.

Since June...wow...you're in those wave days...when the heartbreak still comes in like a tide at times? The pain hits and then the anger jumps...anxiety, concern, fear?

We were in MC before WH chose the marriage...we began MC 10/12/04...I found a Christian pro-marriage counselor online and asked WH if he would go with me...I asked on the day he told me that he was in first love with OW.

NC didn't begin for three months after that, SL. And he went NC to help him decide, with a clear head, whether to leave the marriage for OW, for himself or stay and work on it for a two-year period.

His A was short...about two months, physically...only she was in his head as a fantasy for nearly two years prior. Withdrawal sucked...and was so necessary. At one point he said, "I won't love her if I don't think about her!"

We learn what we learn, SL. Not forever...just for right now...I required NC...and there was contact. Not in my control. What WH did was to take action...to get a transfer...and that wasn't in my control, either.

My choice was to stay, to stand for my marriage...me, who had done so much, so often, to wreck it.

I'm all for asking for what we need...only after we have done our internal research to understand what we need, why we need it, and if it is what we aren't giving ourselves...to clarify our own signals.

That was different than before. To know what is old pattern from new...the differences. How can we build new marriages with old stuff?

My old stuff was the all-or-nothing perspective...if I saw the past as all my sacrifice, then to fix it, I would sacrifice nothing...and MC said, "Zero from 180 is still sick." And it is...it's signalling I'm not in my adult perspective (best of life is in the 90-degrees middle)...I'm in my child's perspective...fix by doing the opposite...which is reasonable as you work towards the middle...not reasonable when you stop there.

Oppositional.

My neediness was so huge my DH felt swamped, annihilated, taken over...wiped out. Enmeshment meant to me that I didn't know where I ended and my DH began. Breaking that fantasy, to see us as two separate, equal, whole individuals in one union was where I had to get before I went to the meeting ENs, defining and charting, measuring.

I wasn't trustworthy with my measuring stick.

I had to really understand the ways I mothered my spouse and to stop. Check my acts against my standard of respect (which was new)...and know what he did was about him...not me.

Three parts of the marriage, your half, his half, and The Marriage. I learned what I would do for the Marriage when I didn't feel like doing it for DH...not sacrificing at all...honoring my marriage. See, The Marriage didn't tell my DH what to do...he knew how to honor our union...just had a hard time doing so because I might benefit.

Inner children are real...you can hear and see it. "No, I don't want any chocolate if HE's going to get some." Sibling stuff, parental...all those incredible influences right there...cut off our nose to spite our face. As long as I can hurt him enough to stop hurting me.

Snake eating himself.

I didn't wait for anything...I was busy working on my own sharing, seeing if I was upholding my own boundaries...listening to really listen...sharing to share, not to get him to respond...all those things foreign to me.

He saw my work, my changes...he was startled out of his shoes when I was no longer a force to be resisted, pushed against, blamed (and took blame out of our marriage)...

I was living up to MY promises...me, the promise-keeper...who was the vow-breaker.

To this day, he says he admires me so much for my changes...didn't believe they were real, that they would last, he shares his old fears and new ones.

I chose not to believe my DH for another year and a half. I listened to know, not to rely on...not to assume, form opinions or beliefs about HIS stuff...

He felt pain from not being believed or trusted...didn't stop him from working on his stuff.

Would I have done all this without him in MC? Would he have continued if I hadn't stated my appreciation of his sharing, doing communication exercises?...and no, he has no friends to talk to, doesn't read MB, doesn't read the books, doesn't research. It's a mix for a new dance...I don't know.

LostHusband said that expectations are pre-meditated resentments. Well, unreasonable ones are...and if you can't tell the difference between what it is you're willing to accept or not, and what he's willing to do or not...then maybe understanding your own expectations is real.

Yes, WS have to earn their way back...part of the redemption package. For them. I couldn't make my DH engage in the marriage rebuilding in the way I wanted, when I wanted him to...that realization came to me through Alanon. Seeing my expectations, all applied to him, not me (that all or nothing), were kicking my own butt. And they were mine. My doing, not his.

That included not looking at him for results...and making sure I shared my own results...all along the way. When I shared what I was working on in myself with DH, I didn't know I was making him my partner again, after having made him my enemy. I was, though. Holding to being open and honest instead of focusing on him being open and honest made all the difference.

Which is why I say that changing ourselves changes everything. Doesn't make anyone else choose differently...it happens when WE choose differently.

When you say you assume nothing of him...do you resent assuming nothing? Do you find the reward in it within yourself? The delight and joy of NOT knowing right now?

Do you give only what he's receptive to? Shifting that to acting from your love, your choice, and letting the outcome go? If an act of DS gives you a thrill or a whisper of peace, and he doesn't acknowledge or appreciate it, feel loved by it, do you choose not to do it?

Time is a monster unto itself, to me. Pain-time is creeping, slow, where the "forevers" come up and sit heavily on my chest. The joy-time is fast, flickering, flashes poignantly by. The old-time, full of old habits and reactivity, is like a dense fog around me, stealing days and seconds of connection (for in truth, seconds is what is real, minutes of it can fill love banks)...and inside my head, too, when I am not aware of the old routines in place again, in me.

How long? Maybe that's part of the process. Takes as long as today...where you practice being fully present in the right now, this minute...open to seeing yourself and your FWH as a clean slate, an unknown human, so that discovery is abundant?

I know it happens. I know two years from where you are felt like something I couldn't get to, wouldn't come, wouldn't be real...impossible. And as cliche as it may sound, it's not...it's one day at a time. For that is all we have, by design.

The not reading...well, I had to own my DH wasn't a reader. Never had been while we were married (he read a lot of self-help before we met). Own it? Yep. Wishing/striving, asking, begging him to share my passion were all the ways I disrespected him. He chose not to read.

POJA got us to reading aloud to one another...bits of interest here and there...Gottman's book. He did an exercise with me about the stage where you are now, called "Owning all your Villagers" from Bradshaw's book.

My part? To appreciate that this was him choosing...not him agreeing when he didn't agree...to do this. I had to find all the places I discounted and negated his hearty contributions to working on our marriage...because me doing them wasn't big...seemed tiny steps to me when I did them. Big for him. I respected his choices. They didn't say one darn thing about ME, SL...his choices were about him, for the marriage.

He never told me he'd do anything to make it up to me...he even warned me when he decided to commit to working on the marriage, that he was doing so for our youngest son, NOT for me...and that he knew he'd have to consider me down the road...he wasn't going to for a long time.

I appreciated his honesty...and yeah, I came here raving about those hurtful, awful words first...got thwacked (with love by JL and Pep) and that's how I got to today.

I owned my choice to stay...not at any cost...just for the two years we contracted to each other to work on it. And those two years went by and we forgot the deadline...for we fall in love again, and again during that time...off and on...mostly from learning to love ourselves for the first time.

LA

Wow, thanks LA.

I have been doing a lot of personal recovery. I have been looking at what I see as needs in my M, and I DO HAVE THEM, and I recognize that INTIMACY is quite important to me (affection, conversation--those sorts of things). So far, this work has just begun.

YES, I am frustrated, partly due to my expectations.

I will have to read, many times over, your above post, as it is full of so much, and I think it is all important to 'get'. Thank you for taking your time to explain. It means a great deal to me, as I'm sure it does to others reading along.

Right now, I'm in a place that I feel like MB's vets are my coach, all trying to light a fire under me when I feel like I have nothing left.

SL,

I know you've been working hard on your personal recovery and discovery. I've seen your dedication in posting and to me, that is an act of care for yourself and your half of your marriage.

And I hear you realize you're at a beginning...which is great to know. Says to me you can KNOW this and still FEEL like you have nothing left.

Reality cannot be both, can it? You can have the experience of having nothing left and still have a lot. We all have that ability. Feelings are NOT beliefs...if you can see you're at a beginning, believe it. Your choice. You will not then have the resulting feeling of empty, out of gas, all done and nothing left.

I promise.

See if there isn't a lurking idea/thought you have recurring like "It shouldn't be this way" or "This isn't being loved" or even, "Everything's been ruine, taken away; gone."

Amazing how much of our experience comes from these thoughts in our heads...which may beliefs we had...from way before we even knew our partners..."If my H ever did that, I'd feel this!" and then we experience such a thing...with a lot of pre-thoughts, like promises, affecting how we really are feeling right now. Layers of them.

Unravelling those...to really see where your expectations begin and end, what they are, and if these pre-thoughts play a part in them...heck, that's a real beginning, isn't it?

To know...not to act on, judge, rebuke or punish yourself for any of them...know to own...that's it.

You are whole, complete, marvelously made human being...equal to everyone on this planet, SL. You really are. Frustration is a signal...to trace and know...not to try to get yourself to not feel. Once you get a signal, it drops...often, sharing what you're feeling drops the signal totally...was a signal to share.

Intimacy is knowing your own stuff and sharing it. Experiencing intimacy begins with you...your choices. That's marvelous, isn't it? What a design! And here I thought I had to get my DH to BE intimate with me...didn't see where I wasn't living up to that goal myself.

How 'bout that?

Took me hearing the MC say, "Consider the idea that what you crave most, you are least giving." That was a big lightbulb moment...after I got defensive, of course.

LOL

LA

LA, I wrote a novel and this dang thing timed out on me! UGHHHHHHHHH

Hey SL, I need to re-read your threads. I'm sorry you find yourself in my camp, but please continue to post.

LA, I'm still re-reading, digesting and disecting your 1st post.

Why does he do nothing? Why I do to much? Started out innocently. He worked long hours so in 'helping' I took care of the "stuff" (house, bills,kids,decisions,etc.) I think he 1st was grateful, then took it for granted, then resented it, now feels unimportant.Even when I was asking,begging,pleading for help I think he was to detached and resentful by then. In my defense, he does have a streak of if someone else will do it, why should I attitude. Been that way since before I had any influence on him. But I will take my share of the blame for his resentment and not feeling important.

Why doesn't he take responsibility? Why do I take too much responsibility? He doesn't get blamed for anything that goes wrong. I will have to pick up the pieces when it does so I try to make sure it doesn't go wrong. Ok, that's from my childhood that I've brought into my adult life - I plead stupidity. I resent his lack of involvement/committment.

We had a HUGE blowout Thursday night. As far as I was concerned it was over. He wasn't putting forth enough effort and I was bending over backwards. hmmmmmm maybe back to the whole responsibilty thing there? It was the 1st time I told him I HATED what he had done and I HATED him for doing it. HE opened pandora's box and I felt it was his responsibility to pick up the pieces if he wanted our M to work.

He made a comment that hurt me to the core of my being...

A little history 1st. This whole situation on top of the last 3 yrs. of a terrible amount of stress for both of us, oldest daugher's divorce, oldest daughter's downward spiral into drinking, both had pregnancies, unwed, both moving home at the same time, both had babies within 4 months of each other-living here, his health, my health, youngest went thru domestic assault while AGAIN pregnant with twins,both moved out-last one this June, youngest now getting married so dealing with upcoming wedding in a couple of weeks,finding out EA has been going on during spring/summer,and life, I'm about at a breakdown point. I'm not handling anything well. I don't think he is either we just show it in different ways. He holds in, I let out.

Ok back to his comment. I had asked him several weeks ago if he would talk to girls to get them to be less demanding and more understanding of my stress. Not to necessarily tell them what HE had done, but we had issues and really needed understanding and less demands. Never happened. Resentment building with me. I'm falling apart and he's doing NOTHING AGAIN. So I ask him, what were you going to tell them? He says he hadn't thought about it. UGHHHHHH, my response well there ya go again NOT THINKING. That's what he told me about the EA, he never thought about ME. I asked him WHY aren't you thinking?????? *big gulp here* He says "because you do my thinking for me". I'm speechless. I'm pissed. Then I read your post. WHAT HAVE I DONE? I'm so ashamed. On reflection am I totally responsible for this?

Yesterday when I came home from work, we briefly chatted casually..very unusal after fight. Normal he becomes withdrawn. He walked up to me, kissed me and hugged me so tight. I was so relieved but knew we had to talk calmly, clear the air. I held him tight and asked him, can we talk. He was reluctant, I think expecting a bashing but he agreed.

I asked him why he procrastinated on MB? If he doesn't want to do that, ok just say so. I told him I needed him to be honest and speak up. I might get upset, I might cry, BUT I can deal with that rather than my mind thinking he doesn't care and doesn't want to change anything within our M.

He feels that when things are going at least half way good, IF he starts reading and doing the questionnaires that I will slide backwards into "throwing the EA in his face again", and we'll loose the forward progress.

I told him no that was backwards for me. When he DOESN'T participate that's when the EA stays in my mind, their messages playing over and over again in my head. That's when I become anxious as to he doesn't care nor love me.

I also told him, I think, we probably will have step backwards BUT as long as we keep trying and don't leave each other emotionally/physically we can do this.

He said he felt he'd already lost me. I said I'm still here but I can't continue with this cycle we're in. For me, our old M is gone. We CAN work for a better improved M though.

I hope he will now feel more important to me. I'm going to work on making it known. I pray that he "heard" me and what I need. I hope he will follow through. I pray that I can learn to let go of the resentment.

He has always said I have too high expectations for everyone, myself included. I asked him if he could give me some examples. Forward progress here...with laughter. The only 1 he could give me at the time was "you wanted Ward Cleaver and got Ozzie Osborne"! I cracked up! He was shocked and then started laughing. I asked him if he would think of some others too. Sure. Ok, when can I expect an response. He was surprised. I told him, no deadline but for me not to get anxious if I have an idea of when we'll talk about this I'll be ok. So he's thinking of this. He also is thinking on what I do/don't do that upsets/builds resentments/in other words love busters. I'm not sure why he doesn't just do the questionnaire but ok.

I'm now aware of my over responsibility is taking away from others and their choices and consequenses.
I'm now aware I assume to much.
I'm also now aware more than ever I don't fight fair.
I'm now aware my love for him is not totally dead. I really can't put much in his I like you column yet, but I'm hoping.
I'm also now aware I have to find a way to truly forgive him and let the resentment go.
I'm also aware as much as I want to let the resentment go I NEED him to meet my EN's and him to want to.
I'm also aware that I NEED to see effort by him, serious effort, no half a$$ just enough to get by with.
I'm also aware I AM TRULY trying to meet his EN's unfortunately I LB too.

Ok, there's the novel. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? Other areas of work needed?

oh did I say...THANK YOU. I deeply appreciate the advice.

It does seem to me that you don't allow H to do things without making H feel that H is wrong in what H does or says, I am guilty of that one myself.

there is nothing wrong with assuming, you can assume H to take responsibility, from what you wrote H is not, if you can not discuss the things that went on in the past its because H does not want to take it on, to pony up to it. H needs to.

fighting fair? are you calling names? swearing? yelling? I believe that if you are not doing any of these things, you are being fair. You know whats nice and whats not.

H needs to get you to fall in love again. What are the things H did while you were dating to get you to fall in love? these are the things H should be doing.

you can't forgive and let go if H is not coming clean with H's story. How can you forgive if you don't know what caused it? or what happpened? It must be talked about in order for you to let go.

start meeting his EN's, try that first. YOU be the person you want to be married to.


make it safe for H to do what H feels he needs to do. No critical talk.

Ask H if you are meeting his EN's, ask H what you can do better? see what H says.

Help me out, what responsibilities are you taking on that you don't want to? be specific.

OUCHEY...can you point me to what I said above that shows that? I don't want to do that.

Yeah in fighting I will yell, doesn't start out that way of course, starts out nice calm. No name calling and no swearing directed at him.

I am meeting his EN's according to his ENQ. He says I'm doing everything. I even try to mix in some of his not top needs.

I do TRY to make a safe place to open up to, I'm trying VERY hard to not be critical but does that mean I can't disagree with this position? I keep reminding him we are not going to agree 100% but we can agree to disagree unless 1 feels SO strongly then we need to reeveluate together and either negotiate or table what ever it is.

Responsibilities I have had, helping 2 daughters raise and care for GRK. THANKFULLY that is changing as oldest daughter and GD moved out mid June. My D's relapsed into teenage attitude (mom will do all) when they moved home, then of course there are the precious little ones that needed attention and care. Oldest daughter stayed here WAY to long 3 years, 1st out of necessity, then became why leave if mom and dad will provide. So I tend to take on too much with my kids their problems, etc. and that doesn't help them grow.

With my H, I don't want to be the sole person responsible for all the financial decisions,the getting them paid, figuring out budget, etc , being the sole person to be the family contact, I don't want to be the sole person having to care for our home and it's repairs. H will cut grass and weed eat but anything else is put off and putt off, I don't want to be the sole one being responsible to work on the M. All decisions left to me so therefore anything doesn't work out it's my fault instead of working together and whatever happens happens.

I know I caused some of this by my wanting "to help". I felt sorry for my girls and I wanted the best for them, so I helped. I wanted my H to feel good to come home, not pressure so I did/do all the home stuff along with the financial stuff again thinking I'm helping along with working. But since I only work part time "family" thinks I'm their personal assistant. I'm starting to say "no" more often to both the girls and H too. You need a doc appt, YOU call, YOU need a prescription filled, YOU call. I'll still help but I'm NOT offering as much, they have to ask and then I'll decide. I'm not an automatic yes anymore. I've taken care of them so long and I don't resent that, it's just I NEED/WANT to be taken care of too.

Since H's EA my eyes have been opened as to how much I do for him that is more mothering than wife. It's a bit of a change for him to understand I'm NOT doing that anymore.

DF, did that answer you question?

Hi mvg.....found you!

I've been searching for your threads and not only found you but found a few others I wondered about.

LA is great and will help you tremendously like she did me. She's ignoring me now <wink, wink, LA!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />> and that's a good sign.

You said:


I did that, too and LA helped me see what an enabler I was....actually I was an arrogant, self-serving, controlling, mothering enabler....but now I've graduated to just being an anabler...'trying to recover enabler' at best.

You're getting great advice so I just wanted to cheer you on. I dont know how you've been able to deal with all the stressors in your life, but may you continue to press on, venting when you need to....

btw, type your posts as a word doc first so you don't get timed out. (Or use your 'back' button and hightlight, cut and paste ~control C~ and then reenter your post using control v.)

God Bless,

Ace

Ace thanks for replying. I KNOW where alot of my "stuff" comes from and NOT having truly addressed those directly, for me when I get stressed/doubtful, etc brings those childhood memories back VERY strongly.

For example being sexually molested as a 10 yr old by step grandfather, told mother and her reply was oh he tried that stuff with me too. He did NOT try those things with me, he did them. No one EVER stood up for me. Now true she was going thru a divorce and being very selfish at the time, but geezzz I AM her child. Just let it go? That HAUNTS me.

Dad was a physical abuser and adulterer. Abused mom & me. AGAIN she never stopped it. She did get divorce but that brought about a whole new set of problems. She feeling like she was cheated in her M started acting like she was teenager and I could be responsible for my sisters while she did her "fun" things. Again I was 10-11 yrs. old and they were 4 & 2. Even after her remarriage I was responsible for them because she was a newlywed. So I know where my over responsibility comes from. Anything happen to them I answered for it. I see this is where I also became overly conscience of trying to fix or try and control others problems so I didn't have to pick up the pieces. This is also where my TOTAL HATRID/NON TOLLERANCE for any type of infidelity is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. It tore my family apart. And I know that's also why I have such a hard time trusting people.

My WH KNOWS all those things. He has seen over the course of our M how I react to stressful situations and how they effect me. I guess that's why I'm having the hardest time with WH's EA according to him having nothing to do with me.

So I see my flaws and the why they are, I just don't know how to make them be a VERY distant memory and not effect me so much.

And Ace, yeah I know what you mean about thinking/trying suicide...ANYTHING to make the pain stop. That was a option, hopefully not anymore. I CAN make it, maybe not with WH, but I WILL make it...hopefully.

I do have a wonderful role model for a good and generous and thoughtful behavior. I do try very hard to model myself after her. I thank God everyday for my grandmother. She has saved me in more ways than one.

THANK YOU I need the cheering. I'm not always so sure I'm doing the "right" things, once your heart is broken it's hard to be objective.

Hey also, How do you do a link? I don't know if read my entire story unfortunately I have a couple of threads. Under Just Found Out Internet Infidelity, GQII Fence sitting, and GQII Life after EA and ???'s.

Lovinganyway and doingfine any comments, suggestions on my posts? I'm so confused and scared these days, I don't want to mess up I want to do this right. I'm trying to learn and take your advice.

Okey dokey, WH after thinking comes back to me with his expectations.....nothing, I'm doing everything he expects.
HUH? I asked him if could be more specific because there are things I don't want to do anymore and it could be one of his expectations. So far nada.

WH does LBQ. Nothing applies. Huh? I ask him are YOU sure? He says I read the directions, most start with delibrate does (whatever catagory) and he doesn't feel I do such things delibrately. I give him mine, he says "I see you wrote alot, see I KNEW I was the problem." UGH!!! I explained I didn't take the questions quite as literally as he did because at 1st I didn't think he LBed (except for dishonesty) either. However if I looked at what hurt me there were things, delibrate or not.

I think I'm thinking to much. What do I do? I'm meeting his EN's, he's a bit mixed up and meeting his EN's too, not mine. When do they get it? I WANT him to WANT to meet my EN's. I'm NOT telling him he's not, I just continue to meet his, I think this is giving him a false impression that I'm happy.

I'm trying not to control,enable,manipulate, etc. So WHAT DO I DO? Do I ever get anything in this relationship that I truly crave? Maybe I should ask, what is it that I'm not getting?

You remind me so much of myself. I was guilty of taking care of everything for years. It started out innocently enough - when we married, I had 2 sons, he had 4 kids and 2 stepkids. So there was a lot to take care of. I enjoyed it at first, but he started doing less and less and less.

So what you need to figure out is that it took YEARS for your marriage to get into this mess, and it will take YEARS for you to get out of it.

You might want to read Cloud and Townsends "Boundaries" book, because it sounds like you really need some. Adults abused as kids don't usually have any.

I think things sound very promising, so please don't settle for a fair marriage. You want a GREAT one.

Thanks Believer! I am starting to believe I DESERVE one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

mvg,

Lemme begin here...

"Ok, when can I expect an response. He was surprised. I told him, no deadline but for me not to get anxious if I have an idea of when we'll talk about this I'll be ok."

Sounds to me like you discovered two parts to FWH's non-response...not knowing when or if he will respond. When or if he will share.

And when he does...you feel whacked hard.

His PERCEPTION is that you do his thinking for him.

Okay...that's his perception...his experience. Does not mean you are doing it or not doing it.

Good to examine in yourself...as when you said you can see things differently. I don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying when he sees things differently, he's hearing he is bad, wrong, defective. I believe that comes with the parenting not partnering...was for me. Where I would think "He shouldn't think that way, believe that, perceive that."

So dividing up what is his truth from the truth is essential. His thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives are his own...not the truth, his truth.

Sharing is knowing and sharing your truth...and NOT making it The Truth.

"So he's thinking of this. He also is thinking on what I do/don't do that upsets/builds resentments/in other words love busters. I'm not sure why he doesn't just do the questionnaire but ok."

His way is about him...like his EA. Doesn't mean you don't matter, aren't important--in fact, doesn't change you are half of the marriage...doesn't change he's half.

Listen to yourself when you speak...do you hear yourself trying to convince him of anything that is his? Not actions...those are what we judge. Rather...if he thinks that's an ugly color of blue and you like it, do you say, "I'm getting that color really hits you wrong. I understand that. I like it myself." Validation for his opinions tell YOU that they are OPINIONS.

Like taking the EA as about you...your failing or not...rather than his choice alone to seek in fantasy, to shortcut rather than work through. Yes, he harmed you greatly because he harmed the marriage. No, you don't have to be the cause, control or cure...in fact, you cannot be, to his choices, his actions, his stuff.

Nor he you.

Getting this separate and equal is how we have intimate marriages. We crave being the cause so we can be the cure. Think parenting...all the solutions we devise, believe we can protect, change, cure, control our children...that is our responsibility to do so.

As if they weren't complying of their own free will. And they are.

As much as we are responsible for them, their compliance is the other half. They allow us to care for them.

Easy to see where parenting is our first and deepest inclination in the ways to love...that if your partner would believe differently, they would experience less pain and think of you better. You'd be safer.

Their pain is about them, to them...their signal...for a reason. Don't get in the way of their reasons. HEAR their stuff as their own.

Ask for what you need. Look how you did that..."I respect you can feel overwhelmed, engulfed during our conversations. I've felt the same way at times. When I need a timeout, to resume our discussion at another time, or after I've sorted something out, I'll ask for it. I will give you a time when I will be returning to it. I ask of you the same. Not knowing when we will continue our talk is what fuels my fear (I hear "never again") and I know that's not real. Dates and times tell me I can rely on being heard and hearing. Open-ended is what I fear. Not you."

When we are in the habit of giving our power to our partner...telling them all about them...they hear they are the problem so they have to be the solution...they have to solve our feelings, thoughts, beliefs, etc. Tough way to live. Very painful life experience.

They aren't. People cannot be problems. They sure can have them. Treat him as your equal, for he is...he is as capable as you are. Do you want his choices to be about you, or about him...coming from his choice to love you? If you are his reason, then he is yours...keeps your focus where you have no power, you're over your limits and deepens enmeshment...which IS fantasy.

What strikes us deeply is about ourselves, mvg. You fear being seen as controlling. If your focus is all over him...then who is focusing on you, your real responsibility and limit? Are you abandoning yourself? Are you living through him, his choices and actions, to define who you are?

"I'm now aware of my over responsibility is taking away from others and their choices and consequenses."

Are you using this awareness to bash or love yourself? How you defined loving well as taking over, doing for, pleasing...would you consider that's how you felt really loved? Being done for, ENs met fully, pleased...full of their focus? And you NOT doing that for you, for fear of looking selfish, self-absorbed?

Really loving yourself isn't engulfing yourself...getting how terribly painful and fear-filled feeling engulfed is for our partners is a big step to understanding what we do and not do...and not loving authentically...just by rote. By senses. Not by choice.

I felt AWFUL when I read "Facing Love Addiction" (I think it's by Melodie Beattie)...and realized what my DH hurt from, I would feel loved, if he did it to me. His fear of intimacy was as painful as my fear of abandonment...and we both have both fears. Swinging back and forth between them. If he knew the real me...he'd abandon me. Gotta earn harder...as if I can earn security from abandonment.

Or intimacy.

You cannot take away others' choices. They choose.
No one can take away your choices. You choose.
What you are experiencing is basing your choices on others' response...their reactions. Changing you to get them to change.

Snake eating its tail ring a bell?

Seems wholly rational and understandable you're at this point, right now, where you realize through AWARENESS what you were doing and not doing wasn't right or wrong...healthy and unhealthy. And how the premise behind your choices was to love fully, deeply, completely...and to feel loved fully, deeply, completely.

"I'm now aware I assume to much."

Assuming is fantasy. Just like A's...not real. We are taught to interpret, judge, pat down and know what we really don't know. We aren't taught how corrosive that is to human connection, how it smacks down acceptance, increases rejection, and gives a really difficult life experience.

Learning it's okay to not know what you don't know right now is huge. See the difference here between not knowing another's stuff and their actions? Good to know, be aware of actions...not healthy to judge their stuff. Or to interpret their actions...assign your perception as truth...which is why it hurts when others make their truth The Truth to you.

Don't do it to them.

DJs were really my bread and butter. Fed my affair with resentment, rightness, wrongness...affected so much of my life. Since I assumed about others' stuff...I assumed my own...and I'm the only one who CAN know my own stuff. Assuming was safer, I guess. Assuming meant not looking into the sun directly...assuming from my own shadows what it was like.

You can look inside and not combust. You can face the heart of your own light and not go blind. You're not bad, wrong, defective...you are created from the marvelous hands of God, separate and equal to every single human on the planet.

God didn't make no junk. He doesn't.

We can pile a lot of junk over us as we try to recreate his creation to be safe, though.

"I'm also now aware more than ever I don't fight fair."

No need to fight at all, mvg. No one can take away a single molecule of your being...who you really are. Nor can they add to it. You can surely experience life as if others can. Strive first to understand, then be understood. Takes fairness right out of the equation...and fighting.

You are not your actions...revoke your permission to LB...because that's not who you really are...that's not in your code. You don't need to raise your voice to be heard...hear yourself. It isn't his opinion that defines who you are...his thoughts are not your enemies, his beliefs, his perceptions...they are his...and you choose your own...you define yourself, 'k?

"I'm now aware my love for him is not totally dead. I really can't put much in his I like you column yet, but I'm hoping."

Loving feelings result from loving actions. You've been looking at his actions to validate his love for you, so you can have loving feelings. Yet, you've blocked your own love bank time and time again...look to loving as a verb from your own choice to love...act accordingly (meeting ENs) and own the resulting loving feelings from what YOU do...gets you clear to see all the ways he acts on his love for you. His choice. Not in your control. You cannot earn his love...which means you can't manipulate him into loving you.

He does.

Period.

You do.

Period.

Own it.

Which is why when we choose to act from our beliefs, not our feelings, we then experience a life overflowing with love, respect, acceptance, joy...I call it thriving.

"I'm also now aware I have to find a way to truly forgive him and let the resentment go."

Examine your resentment...it's yours. It's a signal to you, about you, from your beliefs. I don't believe in letting resentment go, as if it comes in and goes out. I believe when we own how we created, maintained and nurtured our own resentment, find the false payoff, see where we've done it our whole lives...then we get that our partner isn't powerful enough to be our cause, control or cure...and forgiveness is more likely to be our choice for we know where we end and they begin. And we know we are as forgivable as they are.

Human to human.

"I'm also aware as much as I want to let the resentment go I NEED him to meet my EN's and him to want to."

If he can control what you feel--resentment, love, joy, fear, frustration, rejection through meeting or not meeting your ENs today...then what are you here for? Do you like being the control of HIS stuff? Do you like this fantasy?

Consider what you crave most you are least giving.

Get into the heart of that and see where you want others to do your work and you'll do theirs. Is that a possibility?

Are you giving yourself attention or is your attention on him? You may be signalling yourself through projection. Getting him to do this, not do that, listen to this, not think that...may all be about you...to do for you, not do that to you; listen to you, hear your own thoughts and not dwell (think that). Flip stuff over...for your focus can devour your love through resentment, anger, pain and fear...and decimate it. Won't feel loving feelings as a result...for you aren't doing for you what you require to be done for you, are ya?

"I'm also aware that I NEED to see effort by him, serious effort, no half a$$ just enough to get by with."

Show yourself serious effort...listen to your thoughts, check your own beliefs...do your own thinking...through awareness, not judgment...because you may give yourself a tiny enough amount of focus to get by with. Ouch.

You judging him into dust means you're doing that to yourself. Not loving, not knowing, DJing yourself to bits.

Stop. Revoke your permission to yell, AO, DJ, lie or make selfish demands of yourself right now. Respect yourself...you're already whole, complete and marvelously made. You are not bad, wrong or defective. You're hurting yourself by the minute...look and see how you are LBing yourself. Then you'll see better what you're doing to others.

That two-way street doesn't stop or go one-way only, even if we say, "I'm my own worst critic"...we are lying to ourselves. If we criticize ourselves, we are doing that to others. If we are actively loving ourselves, we are actively loving others.

"I'm also aware I AM TRULY trying to meet his EN's unfortunately I LB too."

One LB wipes out 20 love deposits. That's inside and out. To me, it does this because we are operating from proving we love and are loved. One bears far more weight.

Ask yourself...would you rather busy yourself with evaluating, judging, proving you love and are loved...or knowing you do and are?

"Ok, there's the novel."

I read a lot of novels. Feel free to write as many as you want to...

"What did I do right? What did I do wrong?"

You made it about being right or wrong.

Seriously. Funny, but serious.

"Other areas of work needed?"

Acey is sharing she knows this path. Like me, she travelled it. Now she's experiencing how difficult it is to see someone on it...stepping into that hole, twisting this way and the other. Listen to her, please. Hear how loving she really is...for yourself, and for her. She's reaching out to who she was...which is still about her, her healing, balance and who she is...so you can also see yourself...not as bad or wrong...not fixing yourself...really getting your self...maybe, for the first time.

That was my experience. More to know...not to fix. When we really see what we do, why we choose to do it...uncover the real beliefs we're living from...then we stop doing and not doing whatever it was...because that's really not who we are.

"oh did I say...THANK YOU. I deeply appreciate the advice."

Please also thank yourself for posting...asking for...seeking...reading...considering...feeling...all your stuff. Appreciate who you really are...all of your human stuff...and know your power and limits...not to blame, fix or bash...to really know...that this IS love. In every post, it's about you and the poster...each half...each sharing for their own benefit and the byproduct is connection, understanding, acceptance...because you chose to respect and accept respect.

Respect as knowing we are all equal, separate, and connected, anyway.

LA

P.S. And I wasn't excluding "doingfine" from being listened to...I'm asking you to hear the love, connection, and mutuality from every poster. Sorry 'bout that, DF! Your contributions are terrific. Thank you. (And believer rocks, of course!)

Thank you LA, again alot to digest printing and re-reading and thinking on your response. I think I might need the "specially challenged class" on M, ie "M for dummies".

La,the one thing right off the bat that hits me in your post
I don't think I love myself... I seek/crave confirmation and affirmation (sp?) from others. And when I don't get that I am quick to think I'm not doing enough for them to notice ME, especially WH. So I keep trying.

I'm underminding myself aren't I?

So what do I do, give myself the "atta boys" I need? Never anticipating WH to do it?

I'm sorry I sound so lame. I have so much conflict going on in my mind I need baby steps.

Great realization, mvg.

Maybe you do love yourself...and you are not acting in loving ways to yourself, the way you explained?

What aided me was defining my code and living to it...acting from it, rather than earning love from others, earning safety, to counteract my fear.

And yes, in my code is appreciation and consideration...so what I do for others, I do for myself...and what I do not allow myself to do to others, nor do I allow me to do that to myself.

So when I share my appreciation of others...I do so internally, as well...I appreciate my focus, my listening to know, lots of stuff I do during the day...there are thank yous in there...same with admiration...even when I get focused on what I cannot control...and catch myself...change my thoughts...I thank myself and reinforce, "Yes, that's what I want."

Lovingly. I'm not earning my own self-love...I'm living it. Stays in my awareness...which is a big part of loving well, I believe. Visible love. Makes me visible, too, doesn't it?

Same for confirmation/affirmation inside...did I hold to my code? Only we know, don't we? The more we confirm/affirm (or correct honestly), the more we feel like we exist, feel we are equal beings...after knowing we are.

A key part of this state of mind came from our MC who asked me, seemingly point blank, "Are you a human being or a human doing?"

Hmmmm.

LA

LA, I'm still disecting your post above. But I wanted you to know, I'm taking to heart your look at the actions statement. I haven't truly acknowledged the changes in his actions my WH has/is making so I started a list, there is quite a few things on there, good things.

(Ok get the 2x4 out...not everything I crave, nor as fast I'd like)...BUT definite changes which I am truly grateful, and if I have to keep the list as a reminder till my troubled mind grasps everything I will, and I am happy for those changes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Including working on ME what other M goals (for lack of a better word) should I be working on?
1. Meeting WH EN's
2. NO DJ's nor LBers
3. ?????

Sounds pretty anal retentative doesn't it?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This morning I started reading alot of older threads, Acey's story, Passive/Aggresive behavior and alot of others. Sure do wish I had dsl, would make this old computer move alot faster and reading alot faster too.

I just wanted to say "WOW"! I see myself alot, but I'm starting to see why WH behavior is what it is. It sure is hard to keep it all straight in my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, working on your own stuff is half of the marriage. To me, they are both.

Reading helped me a lot...The Five Languages of Love was great for helping me know and meet DH's ENs and to understand my own. Reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship helped me further with identifying and eliminating LBs.

For me...great for my marriage.

Listen and repeat was as important...which takes focus, pure intent of truly knowing, not judging...and is a gift I gave myself...changed everything. Doing communication exercises helped tremendously with the whole P/A stuff for both of us.

Doesn't sound anal retentive to me at all...when we wake up to how reactive we are to our fear...setting goals helps us to know and hold our fear, and act from love, anyway.

LA

At work I printed out the boomerang relationship article to read later today. I did read it. When I got home I asked H if we could talk- we had a calm collected convo. I started out with telling him about you all helping ME and seeing a different perspective of myself and him, and I'm working on truly grasping that and working with it/changing it if needed. I also told him how I hadn't acknowledged all the improvements he is making in our R and that I was proud of him. I also told him I needed a real intimate R, not just SF but true intimacy.

I asked him questions on several different things including, MB, our R, how he felt about all this, if he wanted to participate or was he appeasing me. I LISTENED (BIG, no, HUGE deal for me) without interrupting him, without breaking the silence, without giving him answers with out DJ's (I think). Ok, maybe this was a DJ, 1 question I asked was if he wanted to meet my highest emotional needs. He of course said yes. I asked if he knew what there were. He said no, but by spending time with me and conversing he thought that would do it. I said you have the info., I'm confused as to why you won't use it. His response was huh?! I said I did the EN & LB why don't you use that as a starting point.

He wasn't very comfortable with this. He did the very typical him, I don't know, I didn't realize, I'm trying (if he says I'm trying one more time I swear I'm gonna yank his tonsils out), I'm not sure, yada yada yada. He also tried the turn the tables well if you had done this, or done that...I didn't bite! (I cannot tell you how PROUD of myself I was by not allowing myself to fall into that trap of oh it must be my fault!)

He did admit that he feels he's the one doing most of the changing. I told him- I've asked, and pleaded to know your pleasures and displeasures but I'm not a mind reader. He did ENQ which I've been meeting, but on LB according to him nothing applied to me.

I told him I had read an article on P/A and was wondering if he would like to read it to see if he thought that we might have a similar type problem. . I could tell he was getting frustrated so I stopped the conversation. He did read it. I went on about my business and left him alone

He hasn't commented on the article. I hope he'll really think about it and talk to me. I don't want to keep the dance going all by myself.

I know I still need work on me. And I will. For ME.

I'll see how the weekend plays out. Hopefully great!

MVG,

I saw your question on my "Musings" thread. I don't know if this would be the best place for the answer, but it's where I'm going to end up so here I am...

You asked about "fixing what's wrong."

From my perspective too many BSs involved in Plan A try to fix all the relationship issues simultaneously with trying to Plan A. This doesn't work because the things required for "recovery" are counterproductive when trying the bring about the end of an affair.

The only thing a BS can fix while in Plan A is things they have control over and that relate to themselves. And of course if you get to Plan B, you aren't working on the relationship at all, so again, all you can work on is yourself.

It is once recovery has been committed to by the WS and withdrawal from the affair has run it's course that the real work of rebuilding the relationship can start. But it can't become the only purpose in life or it is destined to failure. The things that are required to get to the bottom of entitlement issues, addictive tendencies and other things detrimental to the relationship do NOT build the balance in either marriage partner's Love Bank. In fact, digging into serious problems that may have been present for many years can drain away love units as fast as an angry outburst or disrespectful judgement.

So what I have found to work is to actually practice (by that I mean really do, not just run through the motions) the MB methods so that the marriage is strengthened. That is not to say that the affair or issues related either by cause or effect to the affair be ignored, only that the marriage must be built up and the way to do that is to NOT spend all of your time together discussing the trigger laden affair or deep problems that might take years to straighten out.

Especially in early recovery, the WS is really only marginally committed to actually restoring the marriage and building it into something better. If the cost of staying in the marriage begins to outweigh the benefits of staying in the marriage or it outweighs the fear of shame of being thought a failure by family and friends, which is a powerful motivator early on and is probably the number one reason exposure works so well, then the WS might just decide it isn't worth it and bail out.

So while in Plan A you only work on yourself to become better as a person and as a spouse, should the WS return and commit or for the day when you finally move on, either way it is to your benefit. You don't work on the relationship until the WS commits to rebuilding it and then you don't stop the process of marriage or life in order to fix every detail before moving forward.

My wife is into horses. I see a lot of people get a young horse or one that has been ignored for a long time and they think they are going to just throw a saddle on it and ride. Usually the horse has a few bad habits and the rider does as well and those things need to be fixed. The level of dedication to fixing those things varies from situation to situation, but some go on to be champions and others only reach the point of being able to ride alone on the trail without being in danger of being dragged through the bushes or trampled by a 900 pound two year old throwing a temper tantrum. The ones that are most happy and most successful in meeting THEIR goals for the relationship with their horse are those that can work on the problems while still having fun and riding when they get the chance. Some become so obsessed with "breaking" the will of the horse, that they spend all of their time doing fruitless ground work. The horse does not improve because they are still giving the wrong cues and the horse is still not able to determine intent. So no riding happens, no enjoyment is possible and no bond of trust between horse and rider is ever present.

It is those who ride, enjoy their time together and adapt to each other that have the strongest bond. Those who demand perfection before getting on the horse, spend their whole life with a lead rope in their hand and never get into the saddle.

Fixing what is wrong with the marriage is very important. But unless the marriage bond can be strengthened, there will be no marriage and therefore nothing to fix, since you will be fixing each other for your next spouse.

Mark

Mark,
AHHHHHHH! Now I see!!!! I was trying to Plan A and recover at the same time! That does take some pressure off me. Frustrating but at least I understand a little better.

EA has ended. NC since then. However, I was the one to end it....that has concerned me. He wouldn't do a NC letter as it was not a relationship to him. However he has maintained NC and so has OW.

He has agreed to MB but (there's always a but isn't it?!) he is P/A so doesn't put much effort into it. He has improved his responses to me just not as much as I'd like (I'm trying patience, really!)

I'm just not sure what I should do now (if anything) besides work on myself and my perceptions. I am trying to be very aware of when he's giving me the old p/a attitude and calmly not fall for that.

Your analogy of the horse is so right on for me. I am trying to enjoy the "good" times and just ride.

Do you ever just jump in at some point and say "hey this is what I'm seeing in my reactions to you and your reactions to me how are we going to deal with it?"

Thanks for your reply.

Way to go, mvg. You're getting great advice and I just want to encourage you to keep going.



This happend for us after MB and MC. We were (often still are) PA. Not a good combination but our MC is tougher than Dr. Harley. (That's what we needed and still do.) More details on my "Smiles and Trials 2" thread. Guess I should link it to my sig line, too.

Ace

MVG,

I think that you do have to just learn to bring things up and deal with them as needed. There are things that are important enough to draw a line in the sand and stick to it, but you have to pick those battles carefully and, really big one here...remain calm while discussing them. If you overload and start yelling, doing the AO and DJ thing, you will never educate him as to what you want him to know since he will stop listening and go on the defensive.

Don't sacrifice the marriage to work on the relationship. Decide what is most important to you and don't compromise on that, but don't make perfection a prerequisite for staying married.

I think EAs may be harder to solve than PAs in some cases because the WS doesn't see it as a problem. He may never see that what he had was an inappropriate relationship, but he must understand that it bothered you even hurt you and so it was WRONG and so can never happen again. He must learn how to prevent it from happening again and this can't just being sure to stop before it reaches a critical point. He has to learn how to avoid such things all together.

Back to the horse analogy for a moment...

If I'm trying to get my horse to back up on cue and she won't do it without a lot of frustration from both of us before it happens, I could spend all day working at trying to get her to back up. But if she isn't doing it, it might be that she is stubborn or maybe, it is because my cues are not exactly right.

So my choices are now for us to practice backing up until we both get it right, but I can also go on a trail ride and only spend part of the day working on the problem and at the end of the ride we both have gotten better at our part of the backing up equation but have also spent an enjoyable day together developing trust and enjoying the outdoors. When she gets brushed and put in her stall at the end of the day, she has learned, I have learned and we both have become more confident in our understanding of the problem. But we also have had a really good time together and our bond is stronger than it was. In addition, when I go back tomorrow to work on backing up, she will be more likely to come when I call her and cooperate more than if I spent the whole day trying to get her to back up while every other horse was off playing on the trail.

Once we get good enough at backing up, we can work on side stepping but again, I might want to spend as much time practicing that along the trail trying to open a gate while mounted rather than trying to force the issue before heading out for a ride.

If you want to live in your house while remodelling it, you have to go about it differently than if you are flipping a house for sale. You can't gut the whole house if you have to live there and must do one room at a time. Gutting the whole place is more efficient, but it only works if you aren't trying to live there at the same time and those who do that never end up living there. The house may be wonderful, but is empty when they are done.

Mark

Thanks Mark!

Mvg, can't tell you how similar I find the 2 of us. We even made the same mistake of trying to Plan A and recover at the same time!

Couldn't agree more with Mark. I think the horse and the house analogy brought out the point perfectly. I guess I am a perfectionist by nature and thus when the M is broken, I want to 'fix' it and fix it fast because I cannot stand the 'mess'. But unfortunately, I cannot 'gut' all the problems from my M without having some major arguments! I always thought I was one that can handle my emotions well and boy was I wrong. So I had to learn to deal with the pain and keep quiet, not showing it to my WH all the time to try and make him feel guilty. I had to learn to appreciate the little efforts that my WH put in and not ask for more.

Let's work together on this mvg, let's encourage each other to keep our strength up and keep our expectations low for the time being!

jcool sounds like a plan to me. I've made so many boo-boo's it's unreal! Other posters and especially LA kept telling me work on me, work on me...I thought well ok, but I can multi task! I didn't see the extra pressure I was adding to myself on top of the hurt, confusion...well you know what I mean. I hope I"ll keep Marks works in my head to enjoy the ride.

And encouragement is REALLY needed, so let's do that jcool!
(((thanks!)))

Hey mvg,

Just wanted to chime in on our similarities. I have been given the same advice by mimi, Bramblerose and others, and it does seem to be working. The analogies that Mark posted make a lot of sense, and do explain the process very well.

I was trying to Plan A for recovery, and it is plan doormat. It's good to watch your P's and Q's and take care of yourself, look at your own pile of poo and get it cleaned up. I've been doing a lot of reading, and taking care of me. It seems to be working. The pressure is OFF FWH to EXPLAIN it all and figure it all out right NOW. That will come with time; I just have to hang in there and really SEE the efforts that he is making.

Everyone kept saying, "well, he's home, and that says a lot!" I didn't see it, or get it. Now, I take time to think about the pickle he is in, all by himself, and recognize the uphill battle he has of his own. It is much more steep than that which I must traverse right now.

I say, just slow down, appreciate the little things, stop worrying over what you cannot control (your FWH), and take care of yourself.

I am still frustrated over the lack of physical affections from my FWH, because I feel miles apart from him, but I do what I can to bridge that gap.

When you need to ask a question of him, ask, but be mindful of the questions you are asking and how difficult they may be to answer, and quietly, calmly wait for the answer, and ACCEPT the answer. You may not always like the answer, in fact, I hazzard a guess that you won't like MOST answers right now.

Hang in there, and keep posting.

Hi mvg,

It took me a little while to catch up on your sitch, but we have some very interesting paralels. We have the same FOO for one thing. I grew up with an abusive step father....physically, emotionally, sexually abusive. My mother didn't protect me either. I was responsible for my younger siblings just like you were, and so I grew up needing to take charge and developed coping mechanisms that were great for survival....but not necessarily great for getting what I needed from my relationships. I was used to doing all the work because even as a child, I was the healthiest and most capable person in my world.....but it took me some time to realize that in my desire to help/fix....I was wearing myself out, stunting the emotional growth of those I was "helping", and turning myself into a resentful martyr whose standards nobody felt they could meet. Eek....how did that happen? How did my own capabilities defeat my desire to have my own needs met?

Oh wow....when did I become so co-dependent? parental? judgemental?

That big C-word was hard to swallow....co-dependency.

Read this and tell me if this isn't a little bit scary? It was for me:


Please understand....that none of this means HIS affair is your fault. That's his deal, his own maladaptive coping skills. But in order for your life to be more fulfilling....you'll have to unlearn some of your old ideas about how to achieve success. Co-dependency has to do with control....and that seems crazy because you probably don't have any desire to control anybody....but you're afraid to let them have control because you know they'll hurt you or themselves. It's not really about controlling other people as much as it's about controlling our own fear about being hurt or disappointed. You learned a long time ago that you couldn't trust anybody else....so you have to do everything. Since you can't get your needs met that way....the only real good you get out of that....is appreciation/recognition. So when you don't get THAT either....you feel bereft. Being needed becomes a need....and not a healthy one.

I have more to say....but not the time to do it today. In the meantime....do some research about overcoming co-dependency.

(((((((((((((mvg))))))))))))))

I still struggle with this....and probably will forever...but in terms of marital recovery after an affair....it's vitally important that you recognize and understand that for people like us....counter-intuitiveness is twice as hard. Letting go of the outcome (and control)....which is what real boundary setting is all about....is excruciatingly difficult with this background. Healthy boundaries are not like ultimata....do this or else I'll impose a consequence. Real boundaries are about acting in a way that protects YOU...rather than punishing HIM.

here's another (((((((((mvg))))))))

So, the answer to your question about whether you have to do all the work, is: Only as long as you DO all the work. Can you control your own anxiety long enough for him to do some of it?

Here's my advice for today....have more fun, BE more fun.

silentlucidity thanks!

I'm am trying REALLY hard. I think I have my answers already..cause I didn't follow the MB plan, but I have the majority of the anwsers regarding the EA.

I am watching my responses and questions. I'm practicing the p/a techniques. I'm learning NOT to take his responses so personally (HUGE for me). And I'm learning to enjoy the here and now with a little let's work on "us" thrown in. But very little. Hopefully just enough to peak interest.

And thanks for the support. THANK GOD for this site.

mvg....we were posting at the same time....I'm glad to hear you talking about "enjoying". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

star*fish LOL I saw that as soon as I posted.

Thanks! And YES I see myself VERY clearly unfortunately in those quotes. I'm trying. It's VERY hard.

It's also hard because I see so many p/a's in WH. So while I'm working on the "me" part, I'm still dealing with the p/a of him. UGH!!

ANY help,advice,suggestions are welcome. Ok, and maybe a swat on the head too when needed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have to 'practice' daily to let go, and not let my life BE according to HIS mood, or his level of GIVING. I practice giving, noticing things, being appreciative. It's two fold. I'm in a marriage, and want to meet my H's needs, I do that by admiring what I see and hear, and also engaging in conversation, etc. *I* do this for me AND for PWC (FWH).

I have withheld affections and love from PWC for a long time. Lot's of anger to work through, even pre-A. I still harbor anger over him BLAMING me for mucking his life up with a kid. Hearing that more than once, it's tough to let go, but I'm doing it. He loves his son, and his life is changed for the better in many ways (his words), so I must accept that what he thought then, may not be what he thinks now, and let go of the pain/anger/fear.

What I do now, in terms of working on me, is to recognize the fear/anger, then to work through it slowly, learning to drop it if I hit a wall and come back to it later.

About co-dependency, I never recognized how walled off PWC was when we met. The walls were small enough that I could jump them before and join him, coax him from behind them; I was the ONLY one who could find him behind those walls, his savior if you will (yuck); now they are very high. His fear, and there is nothing I can do to rid him of those (learned that one the hard way), but I can help allay what has to do with me, by being a good wife. This is not about being a doormat, but being the kind of person that YOU want to be, not according to others' rules or declarations, but according to what's inside you, what you feel is right and good.

I think about what I admire in others, and why. If it's something I *wish* I had or could do, I strive to begin incorporating that. I work on the skills that I admire in ME, too.

I still have some controlling behaviors that will take a great deal of time to change, but I'm beginnning to, and that is what matters to me.

Since I started focusing more on myself, forcing fewer drawn out questioning sessions regarding our relationship and doing MY part in the M, the P/A stuff hasn't been my focus. It's still there, and was there pre-A. I don't ask a myriad of questions all at one time, either, as it can be overwhelming to anybody. Also, leave no ambiguity in your questions; ask for exactly what you want to answer to. If you leave it open to interpretation or a 'maybe' kind of question, you will just get fog babble. I wouldn't ask 'how do you feel?'; I would elaborate and be clear abuot what you are asking.


I seriously, just started to live MY life, not trying to control the outcome anymore, just trying to do MY best, so that the chance that the outcome will be good is higher. It's so very slow going, and I have no idea where we will end up, but I'm not going to let that deter me from fixing me, being a better person, letting the anger go, etc. That will only benefit me and those around me, in all of my relationships.

Silentlucidity thanks. It's very hard to change a lifetime way of thinking,acting and reacting. How did you learn to do this Silentlucidity , how did you identify what the issues were? Was it counseling, self diagnoise?

Shortly after Dday I started IC. She told me after 2 sessions I was co-dependent and manpulative (sp?). I'm wasn't too sure of either because I didn't/don't really grasp the whole idea totally. I do not think I'm manpulative at all...I go out of my way NOT to nag,ask more than a couple times to do something, so I'm not sure about the manpulative.

And I'm confused whats the difference between enabler and co-dependent? UGHHHHH

Hey mvg,


Saw where you asked this on the Cheerleader/Enabler/Controller/Conflict Avoider thread....so I changed the sub-title.

Thanks for asking....I've been wondering the same thing. Star's piece on co-dependency was helpful, but I, too have missing pieces to the puzzle. (Actually, at times, I feel like I just have missing pieces.....period! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> LOL)

Star - and other posters here.....please wander over to the Enabler thread I mentioned where mvg also asked this question.

I was going to let it slide, but SL posted yesterday that it was a helpful thread so maybe it still has more aspects to be kicked around.

Thanks,
Ace

It is a VERY helpful thread Acey!

Ps I just emailed you.

Question for you that have helped me so much...I'm thinking I need to change this thread name..doesn't seem to really fit any more.

I was thinking more of Help Me Learn & M Progress?

What say you?

mvg,

I'm STILL learning, in the process of learning. I can't really speak to the differences between enabling and co-dependency, but I can tell you that I, too, could be manipulative.

I had a lot of resentment built up, and the associated anger was WHOA, like Mount Vesuvius! That leads to withholding on many levels, not the least of which is affections and care. Basically, if I was angry, there was no lovin (only I didn't see it that way). I saw it as being tired from HAVING to DO everything, so I didn't have energy to spare for PWC. Now, if he had HELPED me, instead of leaving me to do EVERYTHING, I might be inclined to be 'in the mood'. Oy, pretty typical, I'm sure, but devastating to our M.

I'm not taking all of the blame for how our M was. The truth is, we needed to sit down and figure out how we were going to get things done around the house and with our son; division of duties, but we didn't. I attempted to, by asking for MORE help with this or that. That didn't work. So, I just did it ALL. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Most of the work that I have done has been through these boards (talking with BR, Mimi, Lousy Golfer, and talkign with those who were in the same boat--Like LilSis, Chrisner, sdguy, Wildhorses, Lunamare and so on and so forth). I continue to use the boards and those who have been through this. I also read books and research online. I practice. You cannot change without putting things into practice. That means doing things that are counter to what you HAVE done in the past.

It can be awkward at first. I even felt, initially, like I was letting PWC 'off the hook' for his infidelities. I'm not. I just realize that those choices are his to bear, and he put himself up on that hook. Yes, I have to deal with the fallout of those choices, and the pain he caused me, but I cannot change what has been done. I've chosen recovery, and that means *I* have work to do.

I don't live my life according to what PWC does or doesn't do. I appreciate MORE what he DOES do, and drop the focus off of what he doesn't do. I've noticed in the last few weeks, teensy changes.

Is it fair to have to endure so much more, NOPE. THis is not about fairness, not recovery. It's about fixing what is wrong with the M, and with yourselves. Since you can only control you, you fix YOU and the poor habits you have in regards to your M, regardless of what your FWH does.

Need some reassurance and support here....
On top of dealing with my emotions regarding WH, learning about ME,etc...My youngest daughter is getting married Saturday so very chaotic time. On top of that Saturday night MY poor dog had a stroke (another emotional issue to deal with). Doesn't look good, but we're going to with the help of vet give her a few weeks and see where we are then. Now on to my request...

I realized this morning that I'm getting very anxious about the wedding, not just daughter getting married, but my expectations of my WH. I'm hoping he will see this as a very romantic event and emotional for me too. I'm hoping he'll stick close to me and be attentive.

Ok HELP! I can't set myself up for this and then it not happen. Tell me what to do to distract myself.

I hear ya! Thank you. I'm practicing. He IS trying. Sounds good doesn't it?! Maybe one day I'll actually feel good too.

If you want things to be romantic YOU make it romantic or ask for what you want; a dance? a kiss? a hug? a hankie? Whatever you need, you have to ask for. Do not EXPECT him to just KNOW and give it to you.

I'm sorry to hear about your doggy. It sounds like you are dealing with a lot of stress, a lot of change all at one time. Can you go to a quiet place and just be for a little bit, 30 minutes, 2 minutes, whatever you can muster? Just breathe.

Breath...oh yeah I remember what that was like. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks...just a little freaking out going on.

(((mvg)))

So sorry to hear about the dog. Hope she's doing ok now.

As I read your post, I am reminded of what my friend used to tell me. Plan A is the time to have no expectations. I know it is tough, very tough actually. You would think that after all the pain that he has caused you, he would make ALL the effort to make it up to you. Well, I guess you and I both know by now that it doesn't happen all the time. So, totally agree with silentlucidity, TELL him what you want. It doesn't work all the time for me but it does for some times. Like yesterday, I told him that I felt very depressed suddenly and he just gave me a blank look. I had to tell him that it would be good if he could hug me for a while right now. But after he did that, we both felt better. I used to feel that if I had to tell him and then he does it, it takes the romantic feeling out of it. But I figure out that guys are wired in a different way. Just be thankful that he is still willing to do what you asked.

As for distraction, taking deep breaths is good. Or try looking into the mirror and telling yourself to stop freaking out. That you are in control and you are going to enjoy your daughter's wedding.

Sounds like my situation. I can't offer much help except that it appears to be normal for WS to act like this. Mine did the same thing. He had one session with MB and never filled out the questionaires. He just moved out Tuesday nighht for a second time. I found out he was with OW Monday night. He had a reasonable explanation of course. I sense he isn't on board with recovery yet.

jcool, thanks! I will tell him, or I'll just hold his hand so tight he'll get the picture!

I'm feeling a bit better right now. I got alot accomplished yesterday so I'm on schedule for the wedding and I'm taking deep breaths.

We brought my dog home yesterday. She's improving a tiny bit but I wanted her home so we'll treat her here and the vet is so sweet told me to bring her back the day of the wedding just so I wouldn't worry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I will give some kudo's to the ole WH...he wouldn't let me take pup to the vet alone because I was afraid (prepared) we were going to have to put her down. HIS suggestion wait for me to go with you. YEAH!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ani6209 I'm sorry! Da## WH's!!!

mvg,

I want to make a comment about "imposing consequences". Your husband isn't a child, so you won't be in the business of imposing consequences or presenting ultimata unless you want to be his mama. Making him do what you want him to....will be unsatisfying even if he does it.

Your duty is protect yourself....not punish him.

For instance, the natural consequence of his procrastination is that you're losing faith in your marriage and his inaction is destroying your love for him. You don't have to impose those things....those things will naturally occur.

In your quest to let go of the outcome, control, and codependency....you will have to stop rescuing him, and rescue yourself. The most difficult thing for someone who is looking for validation outside of themselves is to stop measuring their happiness based on the action/inaction of others.

The other problem with threats (it's either this way or over) is that you probably won't follow through with them...you love your husband and you're looking for a way to stay....not a way to leave. After 30 years of marriage....is it really likely you're going to throw in the towel? If you were the one having the affair, you might leave....but what you really want is for your husband to honor you as his wife and show you through action that he's interested in building a better marriage.

I'll try to post more later....but my daughter's wedding is now only two days away.....so it's getting pretty crazy.

star*hug

mvg.......you're amazing and so much more than a threrapist's poster child!!!! (your comment from the enabler's thread!)

By the way.....way to link...how'd you learn that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know that getting all this help is sometimes addictive and I see you logged in when you've obviously got tons of other stuff to do with a wedding in 2 days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Know that many are praying for you and look forward to hearing how well it went afterwards.

On my Smiles and Trials 2 recovery thread, LC said something that helped me, but may also help you.

EXPECTATIONS......they can make or break memory-evoking events. Don't allow them to ruin your daughter's wedding. If your H does not ask/do/say something you would expect him to, just mention it. He's possibly as stressed as you are, (but guys don't allow it to be known, right?).

So don't build up expectations that he does not have any way of knowing unless he is clairvoiyant (sp?) and I'm sure it will go well.

Log in and vent here briefly if ya need to....we'll all be praying for you.

Ace

PS Somewhere, I think on this thread, Mark said somthing about EA's being more difficult to overcome often than a PA b/c the WS does not think he/she has done anything wrong. In my case, my WH knew he was wrong, but the OW did not think she had done anything wrong, that I was overeacting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your thread mvg, b/c that's the first time I've seen such a sentiment expressed on these forums and I truly appreciate it.

Star are you talking about my holding his hand tight post? I'm really not trying to impose consequences on him or me. And yes it is very unsatisfying. I was really just trying to get advice on HOW not to have the expectations


Thanks for the reminder. This is hard.


Things are going on the good side...so the my way or the highway is not on the table right now.
And Star, my daughter's wedding is Saturday also, I totally UNDERSTAND crazy...plans and me! Good luck on wedding. And thanks for posting especially during this hectic time for you. I do feel good knowing you took time to do that.

I know that getting all this help is sometimes addictive and I see you logged in when you've obviously got tons of other stuff to do with a wedding in 2 days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

LOL @ U, acey...I'm thinking of adding Obsesive Compulsive disorder to my LONG list! And some REALLY kind people taught me to link! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Truthfully, when H goes to work at 4:30AM sometimes it wakes me so I try to relax at computer...then I try to learn. SEE OCD!



It is such a wonderful feeling to actually know I do have people praying for ME!!!!


Hey I actually got almost all the way thru the Smiles & Trials 2! And thanks for the Expectations reminder....I'll remember.



Thanks Ace!!! What thread? My rantings of a crazy BS this thread?! Ace, I appreciate your support.

Hey mvg.....I'll reply after your DD's wedding....plus I have no time, either.....just wanted to say I'm praying for you.

"Lord, please give mvg's entire family and friends the peace that passes all understanding, and please make all the memories of this wonderful event beautiful moments in time. And may all the details go well, too.

Amen"

Ace I read your prayer for me...tears welled up. Thank you.

More of a vent/rant read if you dare...
Rehearsal & Wedding .....smiles, trials, and breakdown (Ace hope you don't mind me borrowing a bit of your title)

Grandmother (matriarch of his family) and I were the contact people for this wedding. Future SIL's Mom never was involved. From the get go I was informed GM was the contact. GM, SIL, DD & I had met previously to discuss wedding. They have a REALLY large family (all local - my family is not local traveling a couple of hours) so GM offered to help with reception and decoration if that was ok with me. Ok with me. We had a complete agreed upon list of decorations, food, everything.

GM and I talked several times, especially within the last few weeks till present, just to make sure we had everything covered. We did, UNTIL last week I was given the reception food list and a modified list of what I was to bring. DD pleaded with me to be nice and not cause a commosion within the family . I mentioned to GM that I didn't think the additions were necessary there was more than enough food. I was over-ruled. Ok, to please DD I did it (GM had already changed the entire buffet menu- I never said this to her or DD) .

GM wanted to decorate the window sills, okey dokey no problem. I was to decorate the alter area and reception hall. GM was just suppose to help with food for reception. Last week GM then came up with candelabras, flower arrangements etc for church and table centerpieces for reception tables, bows.....pretty much everything. Before this all came to light I had ordered, purchased, borrowed everything per DD's request as to how she wanted the wedding & reception. I asked DD ok, WHAT DO YOU WANT? Well she really thought their centerpieces & othr things were quite pretty, BUT we could still use the ones she had requested IF I really wanted to. I told her whichever is fine, just let me know. (And yes I was resentful at this point...not to DD but with the situation and GM, I played nice, acted nice, went with the flow).

DD, future SIL, H, me and 3 grandkids went to decorate for reception before rehearsal. We had a good time, relaxed, fun. GM had tables already set up with a note to me that I could change it if I wanted to. Centerpieces placed,etc. So basically I just had to get our food refrigerated, platters arranged that type of thing, along with putting tablecover on and resetting centerpieces.

Rehearsal went as normal especially with small children...wild! But it was fun and exciting.

Rehearsal dinner was nice.

After dinner Future MIL comes to me and informs me that I will be doing the serving of food during the reception. WHOOOOOOOAAAAaaaaa, nope that's not happening. I informed her, HER MOTHER told me she had 3 people to do that. Nope I'm mistaken, I'm to do it. (Ok I'm sure I had the deer caught in headlight look on my face). We find GM, I'm right 3 people to serve, MIL wrong. Future MIL also informs me that she has video person, really....DD asked her aunt to do this. Nope MIL has it covered.....well thank goodness my sister did bring her stuff anyway cause the OP didn't show.

Wedding day, we arrive to prepare food table early to find MORE decorations and layout of how food was to be placed on serving table. I was chuckling a bit, but also a bit pi$$ed. Wedding party starts to arrive, getting dressed, exciting, happy, very nice. I went to find Ushers to tell them I wanted my 8 family members to sit on the pew with H & I. We are all very close, and so few I WANTED them there. Well as I'm asking ushers to do this GM TOLD me that's not how it's done and wasn't going to happen. I looked at her startled and in keeping the peace said fine whatever, I was then informed they COULD be seated behind me. DD doesn't not realize any of this has taken place today.

Oldest DD was younger DD's maid of honor. GD was flower girl. DD getting married was beautiful. All of them were. Everyone was just so pretty!

Wedding went fairly well AFTER ring bear (who is yDD's 3 yr. old) had a screaming fit and had to be removed, flower girl after picking up all the pedals she threw down then had a meltdown of her own and had to be removed. Very pretty service. Twins thankfully were pretty quiet and they got to stay.

Then the pictures. Ugh....Thankfully we had done some before, but of course the bride & groom pics had to be taken. Took a little while. Then MIL insisted that EVERY family member of theirs have their pic taken with B&G too. Not what DD had wanted and had JUST talked to MIL the day before to clarify that wouldn't happen. Ha ha, it did.

Finally get to the reception area, everything I thought was going well. Announced again B&G, they danced 1st dance then sat down. The bridal party and parents start going thru what was leftover of the buffet line. Next thing I know I look up and they've cut the cake, have cake really smeared all over each other BAD. I went over I thought sorta cute way said hey y'all are covered in cake and I missed it. They go out to clean up, they are gone awhile, come back and I look at her and mouthed you ok cause she didn't look ok. She mouthed no, so once they sat down I went over and asked her what's wrong honey-I thought she was upset with her new H because makeup ruined, hair messed up and icing in it... Her response, YOU HURT MY FEELINGS with the cake comment. I was shocked. I looked at her and said oh no, I'm so sorry I just meant I missed cutting the cake. I wanted to see that, well YOU hurt my feelings.

I apologized again trying not to cry, I could feel it coming, so I walked outside away from anyone out there, out to my car in a secluded area and wept, my heart breaking - NEVER would I intentional hurt her feelings, I felt I had runied her wonderful wedding. I was very upset with myself. Kudos to WH...he came to find me, then my sisters. They all calmed me down, I dried my face, checked my makeup and put a smile on my face and went back in...all in all gone maybe 10 mins. Rest of reception went on. They finally left in a cloud of bubbles and clean up began.

I found at later from my sister that DD told her I yelled at her in front of everyone and then caused a scene in the parking lot. THAT did NOT happen. Her perception but not reality. I know everyone was nervous, weddings are so emotional. BUT I did not yell nor cause a scene. I did as she asked just do what they want, and I did.

All in all a very pretty wedding, there was however NO need for my family to be there. SIL's family gave her a beautiful wedding and I went along so not to cause a problem for DD as per her request. Doesn't make me feel any better tho....I guess there is that co-dependency thing again.

I am so glad the wedding is over.
I'm still sad that DD feels the way she does.

MVG,

So, are you gonna tell us about the wedding or not?

Mark

MVG,

We were simulposting I think.

Just read the story of the wedding but no time for chat now. Gotta get to church.

Mark

That's Ok. It's a looonnnngggg post anyway! I'll check back later on. But thanks for checking Mark!

Wedding sounds like a typical wedding. And at least, they DID have it. My step-daughter and her fiance ELOPED after planning the wedding for a year. His parents drove them crazy, and they decided to save the trouble and money and secretly eloped.

I don't know about typical, just thank goodness it's over. I WISH they had eloped.

ok friends....did I really screw up at the wedding? Does it appear I'm making any progress with my co-dependency/enabling?

I will say my WH is making progress with O&H...I asked him last night, what's your take on my behavior at the wedding. He honestly said he didn't think I did anything wrong, I didn't cause a scene, he could tell I was upset when I walked outside but no one else would have noticed, however he does think I over reacted but given the high emotions of the wedding and the overbearingness of the "new" extended family not so much and definately not in front of anyone.
I told him thank you for being honest. Surprisingly it didn't hurt my feelings, I took it as I had asked his opinion and he gave it in a calm manner.

Hey hey hey...I did the link in my signature!!! Thanks Acey!!!

mvg,

What I saw was appeasing of in-laws...and it's an exceptional situational appeasement. Crossed your own boundaries...felt that resentment. Reasonably, this was for a one-day...consider what your future enforcements will be, though...if...when...

I think that's what built up to emotional reaction you had to your DD's statement. Happens when we feel appalled, don't state, don't own...and "take" what's given...then what it was all for...your DD's happiness on her day...isn't enough...you still get dunned, not rewarded, you feel very emotional. The payoff wasn't there.

And I read where you know it was...and your fear is that her opinion is valid and yours isn't...when in reality, both are...as you told yourself...now, believe yourself.

We can react cumulatively from similar past hurt, incidents, and expectations...and we can react to the future in the same way...that the ILs will be this way to us...which isn't real...can sure give you real fear, anger and fear of it, though, can't it?

Because you don't know what they will do or how they will act...only you can learn to say no, living to your own code. And no, thank you for asking.

Learn this language...because it's not about what they're entitled or you're entitled...what you earn or don't earn...or others. It's about knowing and enforcing your own boundaries, holding yourself to them, amending when YOU cross (and you did cross your own boundaries) and stating your stuff as yours.

Weddings and Funerals may be the big exception. Daily stuff, holiday stuff, vacation stuff? Needs to know what you predetermined you'd do and would not do, with progressive enforcements already in hand, which you practice.

Do you fear being the reason others hurt? Despair? Feel anger or frustration? Think about if this is your self-image (the one you made as a child, how you want to be seen by others, including our family, so you can really be) or your true self?

What if your worst fear is that you're enough, equal, separate from everyone else, and marvelously made? If that were your fear, would you react to it, or understand it?

LA

P.S. I have a real bias here I want to share...when humans set out to MAKE "perfect" days...then we are really into the fantasy of being responsible for what we don't control. I believe weddings are about unifying and witnessing unification...there's not a thing smooth, perfect or unmarred in that...real life is how we choose to act, rather than react...weddings are the best place to start...and where the highest expectations seemed acceptable. Seems like a fantasy start for me.

LA, Thank you again for a thoughtful response.

I did cross my own boundaries. That's exactly why I felt/feel bad/sad. UGH!

Do you fear being the reason others hurt? Despair? Feel anger or frustration? Think about if this is your self-image (the one you made as a child, how you want to be seen by others, including our family, so you can really be) or your true self?
Yeah I do. I've got alot of work to do on myself.

What if your worst fear is that you're enough, equal, separate from everyone else, and marvelously made? If that were your fear, would you react to it, or understand it?
I think that's exactly where I've got to DO the work on ME.

I do feel more secure with my own actions/nonactions right now because I do realize I am upset with myself in NOT holding my boundaries.

Thanks LA!

Boundaries are very difficult when you first start practicing them. Sometimes it is easier to start on people you don't care about, and then work up your efforts towards those you DO care for.

I had an awful time at first, and felt bad for maintaining boundaries. But I finally got the hang of it and now its like second nature.

Great tip, Believer. Thanks.

Ace

Mvg,

About that "lot of work on myself" stuff...I'm hearing major overhaul, which can exacerbate feeling down when we don't enforce appropriately...

So I wanted to size, or offer a re-apportion this perspective...up to you, your choice.

I perceived the same way when I first came here...overwhelmed myself. Important difference I learned along the way was that this overhaul wasn't an overhaul...it was actually learning to the left.

Consistently.

Takes time, intent and ownership to make different choices...and you gotta be brave. Course, we already know you are...you'll know it, also, as you begin to do it.

As I said...wanted to emphasize that we have allowances for special occasions...hard to tell when or where to draw those lines when it's one week or one day...not a re-occuring permission. I think God gave you this experience to aid you in seeing your widest boundaries...your own reactions and beliefs (some assumptions) behind them...he's loving you greatly...which is why this isn't an overhaul, a recreation (we already went down that path with self-image and we KNOW it doesn't work...sure can keep doing it, though).

And listen to believer...she examples healthy boundaries...she knows. And she's been at it longer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Believer I'm going to be looking at your posts to learn more. And you are right, I do feel bad for maintaining the boundaries, I fell right back into the enabler/co-dependency person with the 'it's all my fault'. I AM not that powerful. I just have to keep remembering I'm not.

A story of my 'powerfulness' -until recently I felt I made my H marry me. We dated all thru highschool and that's all I talked about marrying him. Yes I loved him (at least what you think as love as that age).I felt he just gave in, thinking ok she's ok, I'm eventually going to marry anyway why not her, I like her alot so what the heck we'll get married. Now that I'm learning about co-dependency I realize I COULDN'T make him do anything he didn't want to...for whatever reason. I also realize that I wanted out of my mother & stepfather's house so badly- I have allowed bad behaviors from him because I was so GRATEFUL he got me out. UGH!!!!

I did this yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Some old guy tried to flirt with me and I simply said "I don't appreciate your comments".

He said "I'm just trying to be friendly". I gave him 'the look' that said " enough".

That was it. End of issue. I had to discuss minor details with him later, but it was aaaalllllll business.

Amazing. Before I would have been afraid of hurting his feelings and probably flirted back, thinking I was validating him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> He was a perfect stranger,....who I didn't care about once I inacted Believer's suggestion.

Thanks.

Ace

mvg,

I am amazed at how similar (but opposite) our sitchs are. My H said "God told me to marry you" and I agreed so I "wouldn't be left behind" (at 19 years old!!!!). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Glad LA is helping you as much as she is helping me. WE are NOT that powerful, are we. But in owning my stuff, I can change what I can control one baby step at a time. We may not have married for the right reasons, but we can change those reasons now as they relate to why we are staying married......34 years later!!!!

Ace

LA, I wanted you to know how touching your statement is to me. Thank you.

I'm not feeling to well today, UTI &/or Kidney stones so I'm going to leave my comments at that for right now. Maybe when pain meds kick in I'll be back.

Ooooh, posting on pain meds...fun!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Okay, fun for me to read.

Hope you are drinking water like a fish for those stones, mvg. AmIOK got one earlier this summer (in June, I think) and posted about it on her thread. Really brought the pain home to me...so I'm cringing with ya.

(Good to know you felt touched by my statement.)

LA

((mvg))

Do take good care of yourself now. Rest well.

At the moment feeling better well not as painful as the last couple days.

Believer thanks for your comments. Boundaries are hard. And I still haven't gotten to your threads...but I will.

Ace thanks for all of your support. Amazing how similar things are and how WE do have certain strength (power) to only to do so much. Thank goodness we or at least I am starting to see the "s" on my head isn't for superwoman! LOL and we'll just leave it at that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA, your contributions on my threads are so helpful. Takes me some time to digest all you say but I'm so grateful you're saying it.

With an ever grateful heart, mvg

Yeouch! Kidney stones! Hope you feel better soon.

If you continue to listen and follow the advice of LA, believer and others, you will begin to heal. It's ever so slow, but worth the effort. Don't try to tackle it all at once, let the lessons come to you and practice as you go. Read whatever you can get your hands on. I'm currently reading "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie; "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, and "Feel the fear, and do it anyway" by Susan Jeffers.

There is a really good book about Boundaries out there, but I can't remember the author.

A good one is Boundaries in Marriage by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend.

Mvg, you are such an inspiration. I do hope your medical issues ease a bit, but your emotional quest to 'heal' is to be commended.

Keep taking baby steps, asking questions, conquering issues....one by one....and it will amaze you as solutions start to unfold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I may not post much, but I'm reading and learning right along with you.

Ace

per Acey's suggestion, I'm reposting a "smile" that I had posted on her thread.

Hey Ace I hope you don't mind I wanted to post a smile...

Wednesday I was having alot of pain. Went to doc, wanted me to go to hospital for c-scan to see if kidney stones or some other ailment they might see on scan. H works about 2 hrs. away outside work. It was raining, I called H just to see if he was coming home because of rain. He said possible if another storm came up, but why did I ask. Told him I had to go to hospital, he immediately thought someone in family was there...no no no I just have to go for a test but if you were on way home I was going to get you to drive cause pain on right side and a tad hard to drive, but I could do it. (smile 1) He said we are on our way home now, I'll meet you at hospital after making sure I was ok to drive.
He calls his boss and tells him they are leaving due to rain and me. Boss says I really wish you stay...(smile 2) H says well some things are more important!

jcool thanks! Pain is easing just not very quickly. I did have a uhhuh moment...duh....I was taking pain pills wrong...BUT I need 4 a day NOT 3. Hoping tomorrow is better and I can follow instructions.

silentlucidity I've heard of the Chapman book, I'm going to look for it. I just found out in our tiny rural area (but with a couple colleges nearby) we now have a BARNES & NOBLE book store! YEA!!! cause the local libraries are not so good. I'll also check for the boundary books.

Ace, I'm an inspiration??? Geezzz for once don't know what to say...I feel honored. I'm learning so MUCH from all of you here!!!

I'm really inspired by 'The Language of Letting Go'; it has helped me to understand what many have told me to do over the last five months.

I hope you feel better soon, mvg. Good for you reaching out to your FWH in your time of need. I know that took a lot of courage.

Believer...can you point me to your thread of your sitch? You've been commended as a boundary pro and I just wanted to see where you've been and how you got there.

Sl, I'll check on that book too. I hadn't thought of it as courage but I guess it was. And thankfully he didn't let me down. phewwwww. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

mvg, I love that you felt comfortable posting your smile on my thread.....but it's so seldom read that I wanted to be sure you shared it on your GQII thread so others could share in your success.


Your openess to learn and change is what is most inspiring. I am no vet, but I've often spent lots of time on posts to hurting newbies, only to have them refute everything said...or worse...just disappear. Seeing you seek info and follow through with suggestions made to you is very rewarding for me and others. We're all volunteers but often, posting helps us as much as those we post to.

How you've absorbed 2x4s and made the effort to redirect is also very inspiring. For me, it means I can make a difference, albeit a tiny one, and I'll keep hanging around if that's the case. So your response inspires me that way, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep it up...and post on any of my threads any time. BTW, if you need a break, hop on over to the Recovery Vacation OT thread ....we're talking about anything non-A related....kids, pets, unusual adventures on the 20-90 Something Friends thread. It's open to anyone wanting a 'vacation' from A stress and is very therapeutic for me, at least. Others, too.

Acey ~ 1175/100 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> (my ocd)

It takes courage to face your fears.

I like the book because it's more like a daily affirmation calendar. I don't sit and read it like a novel, but I grab it when I'm feeling off center. It puts the focus square on my shoulders and reminds me that *I* can make a happy life.

mvg, I love that you felt comfortable posting your smile on my thread.....but it's so seldom read that I wanted to be sure you shared it on your GQII thread so others could share in your success.[/quote]

Acey thanks, I read your smile thread almost daily. But I do want to post on my own to just to keep a progressive timeline of hopefully improvement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Your openess to learn and change is what is most inspiring. I am no vet, but I've often spent lots of time on posts to hurting newbies, only to have them refute everything said...or worse...just disappear. Seeing you seek info and follow through with suggestions made to you is very rewarding for me and others. We're all volunteers but often, posting helps us as much as those we post to.[/quote]

You may be not vet, but your responses are very meaningful to me and to others I'm sure. And I agree with sometimes posting is theraputic, and hopefully helpful BUT if nothing else to let others know we feel for them in their pain.

The 2x4's have not been the hardwoods yet, rather soft pine...and I'm thankful. YOU do make a difference to me, a huge difference so I hope you will keep hanging around.


I'll have to stop by there soon.
Ok please explan your signature........1175/100 ??????

Let me ask a question...I've really wanted to ask this but I'm a tad afraid of the 2x4's I'd get and at least I'd appear like I'm not getting it. I 'think' I'm getting it but still wondering.....Do the WH's ever truly get it? My H is making progress...slowly but progress, and I do appreciate his actions I watch for them, I'm grateful for them, but a big BUT I still need (want) his reassurance. I truly crave for him to SAY the words to me...you are pretty, you are smart, you are mine, things like that. I've asked him repeatedly over the years for this type of affection, I don't get any. He said them to the OW so I KNOW he can do it but he doesn't. It's like the things I crave the most he just won't do. I don't know how to interpet (sp?) this.

Another example, we built a solar greenhouse because I got into master gardening. I loved it, I loved the growing plants, the planting them, the thing. He seemed pleased I found a hobby that I loved. Well my greenhouse has sat for YEARS uncovered...the covering has to be replaced every 4-5 years. I've asked, mentioned, asked, etc a bazillion times for us to fix it so I can enjoy growing the plants. He won't, says he will but doesn't. It's like anything I love to do he withholds from me.

I don't know how to deal with that and it could eventually be a deal breaker for me. IF I never get the 'things' I truly feel I need I don't know how long I will put up with it. I love him but this I don't understand how to deal with. I think he's starting to love me and show it but there seems to be something I don't know what, that stops him from giving to me that much.

I KNOW I can't make him do anything, I get that. I KNOW he has to choose to do whatever he does. But is there a way to convey my desires AGAIN maybe in a different way that might open his eyes?

Ok I hope I haven't slid all the way down the mountain I feel I'm climbing.

mvg,

have you thought about hiring someone to help you cover your greenhouse? It may show WH (and reinforce to you) that you aren't under his control.

mvg,

This was recently posted on Marriedfor30years' thread on the recovery forum. Note how many years are mentioned:


It took 5 years for her to feel grateful and she feels that menopause had an affect due to estrogen/emotional issues. I find this very intriguing.

I've asked her if there has been a thread on this concept...maybe we should start one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Regarding your question about him 'getting it'.....I asked the same thing of my WH when we were seeing the first MC....the one H lied to for 3 D-Days & nearly $2K. In fact, I made a notebook of the numerous long emails he wrote to her, and the few short, abbreviated ones he wrote to me. MC merely said "she likes them, just write them."

WH said, "OK".

He didn't.

He still doesn't.

Before, he didn't because he was still writing them to her...just trying to be friends.

Now he doesn't because he avoids anything that reminds him of her.....long emails and computer games remind him of her so he abstains from both.

His choices, so I respect and don't expect. Period.

It still baffles me how he could say things to a stranger (an 'other woman' he never met) that I wanted to hear him tell me for years ~~~> "You complete me" from Jerry MacGuire, and "I'll buy your chairs" from Phenomenom, and other intimate quotes I tried to manipulate him into feeling/saying to me before his affair.

When I ask him.....we actually can have civil discussions without him feeling defensive about it....he cannot understand it himself. He says he was caught up in the frenzy of the excitment....adventure......unconditional acceptance and admiration and verbal affection of his 'soulmate'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Oh....and get this. This man loathes home videos. We have only 2 family videos of when the kids were little (filmed by others since we could not afford a video camera) and he leaves the room if/when we watch them.

HE CAME UP WITH THE IDEA to take our brand new digital video camera (we bought for pitching students) to record his activities for the day.....our house, even our bedroom, his drive to work, his classroom, his baseball center....a whole day....an entire 2 hours of tape.

Then he sent it to OW and asked her to record her life on the same tape and send it back to him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

AND HE WATCHED IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! (Or so he claimed he did in the emails he showed me.) He actually showed me part of hers but it was taped over his so I have no idea what his showed except what he says....our whole house....including our bedroom!!!!! AAAAArrrrgh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Y'know, mvg...until I started this post, I had forgotten about this violation of my privacy. Amazing. But it's OK now.

He still does not want to watch home videos, but he does.....and he'll also watch the movies I am creating, compiling clips and snippets and merging with music and narration because he wants to support me/my hobbies.

In answer to your question....for me, I just decided that I would find as many diversions as I could to help me be patient in waiting for him to 'get it'.

So I'm working on my own recovery, taking the focus off him and his choices (or lack of them) and concentrating on being the best person I can be. Hopefully, it won't take 5 years like it did for Anyname (Marilyn) but we all have our own expectations and timelines and boundaries.

In conclusion, here is a final thought:


What if you compile a list (albeit a short one LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) of the things he does that shows he loves you. Big things, little things....whatever. Re-affirm him with compliments and gratitude when he does these things. Guys love kudos, even if admiration is not considered one of their top ENs. Plus this might take the focus OFF what he is NOT doing.

Maybe this will encourage him to not only keep doing these things, but seek other ways to attract your compliments.

My last suggestion is to examine your expectations. Because I felt like "you owe me", I had lofty expectations for how my WH should repay me. And he is, but not in the way I expected and not in the timeline I established. His choice, my respect. My happiness is in my choices I can control....what he does is a bonus.

Good question, mvg...and I'm looking forward to reading other perspectives on this issue. Maybe you should re-edit your first post title while you still can (for about 60 days).

Thanks,

Ace

P.S. Saw your reply on the questions I asked on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread. Thanks...your insights are very helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

*I'm posting an explanation on the 20-90 Something Thread....you'll see it when you visit, which you mentioned would be 'soon'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> NOTE: I can't make you visit it...but I can create circumstances that might ~ or might not ~ motivate you to do so. Get it?????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Acey

It took 5 years for her to feel grateful and she feels that menopause had an affect due to estrogen/emotional issues. I find this very intriguing.

I hope it won't take 5 years. I don't know if I have 5 years I'm willing in invest in a wait and see R. I've heard the estrogen theory, geezzz another thing to 'look forward' too! I have more than enough hormones, I can't wait to get rid of some!

It still baffles me how he could say things to a stranger (an 'other woman' he never met) that I wanted to hear him tell me for years ~~~> "You complete me" from Jerry MacGuire, and "I'll buy your chairs" from Phenomenom, and other intimate quotes I tried to manipulate him into feeling/saying to me before his affair.

Ewwww there's that UGLY word manipulate. I never considered myself manipulative, I guess I've got to revisit that. I'm not demanding I'm just desiring. Ok fantasy maybe, but I still desire it.

When I ask him.....we actually can have civil discussions without him feeling defensive about it....he cannot understand it himself. He says he was caught up in the frenzy of the excitment....adventure......unconditional acceptance and admiration and verbal affection of his 'soulmate'.

Oh yeah I've heard the same, the words didn't mean anything, it was the excitement. Well da$n maybe there'd be more excitement HERE if the words came out! I know not nice...defiantately a LB and probably a DJ too- glad I didn't say it out loud.

What if you compile a list (albeit a short one LOL ) of the things he does that shows he loves you. Big things, little things....whatever. Re-affirm him with compliments and gratitude when he does these things. Guys love kudos, even if admiration is not considered one of their top ENs. Plus this might take the focus OFF what he is NOT doing.

I do have a list. I refer to it often. I see a difference in him. I just want it all (ewwww hard to admit that here). Oh and he eats it up having me focus on meeting his EN's and even tho compliments wasn't on his list, he sure does like them. And that's fine by me, it doesn't 'cost' me anything to be complimentary or try and make him feel special, I love him, to me that's a normal action.

My last suggestion is to examine your expectations. Because I felt like "you owe me", I had lofty expectations for how my WH should repay me. And he is, but not in the way I expected and not in the timeline I established. His choice, my respect. My happiness is in my choices I can control....what he does is a bonus.

I'll have to think on the "you owe me". My first thought is no that's not what I think. I did right after dday and truthfully weeks afterwards. It irratated me beyond belief, he caused this unbelievable pain, saw my suffering, and basically did nothing! I wanted him begging for forgiveness, I wanted him pleading to give him another chance, I wanted to see the remorse in his eyes, I wanted him going above and beyond to try ANYTHING & EVERYTHING to help me. That did not happen. We tried counseling...individually with the idea of couples later. That didn't work out to well. Just not a good fit with counselor. I found MB..again I was resentful...I HAD to do something, he didn't and wasn't going to, he said he knew he should, but he didnt. He said ok sounds good, sounds logical, WE can do this. hahahaha! Same ole same ole, yes he did the ENQ after nagging (again resentful). He read mine, it appears to me he hasn't given it another thought since then. He meets his EN's. I meet his EN's so he's a pretty happy camper.

He has become more thoughtful (good thing), he gives me the ILY's, hugs & kisses (good things) and here we are. I meet his EN's to the best of my ability without getting any feed back from him. Now an interesting thing was said by him yesterday...I was telling him how much I felt I was learning about me and working on changing from co-dependent to whatever is not a co-dependent (normal?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> from everyone here. I asked him if he was seeing or noticing any changes in me, he said no. That was a downer. I told well darn, maybe I haven't learned as much as I think I have and I'll have to get my inner light burning brighter.

I don't know if my expecations for our M are realistic or not. Maybe it's just with so much that's gone on in the last few months (years) on top of not feeling good I'm just blahhh. I'd just be so happy for him to WANT to do things, say things that would make me happy and realize I am special to him. I KNOW I can't make him, I DON'T want to make him, I want him to want to.

Geez he is right, I don't know if there has been any true changes in me. Time to reread this thread and get a grip.

Acey thanks for your response. And you are one strong lady! Your video remembrance...broke my heart. You have a strength and a very loving heart. Is it ok if we give them a swift kick every now and then...by accident of course?

Yes I have thought about it. I might do that this year. I just need to get over being resentful of why he won't, and then resentful of again I have to do it. So for right now I'm pondering my reasonings...and trying to let go of the resentment.

Maybe I should use 'his' hunting fund to hire someone to do it!

MVG,


Resentment can be so hard to overcome. We feel we deserve "better" and resent the lot we have been left with. If we don't overcome it, it eats away at our ability to forgive, to move forward and rebuild a life worth living.

When we resent what we have been left with and the memories of being hurt we live in the past and dwell there until we can no longer see the future.


And while YOU would have your greenhouse taken care of and maybe a tiny bit of satisfaction that you have had the last laugh and have "gotten even,' then HE would have resentment and the cycle would begin again.

But you would still have resentment over what happened and now he would as well. Neither of you would be happy. You might be equally unhappy, but the result would not be satisfaction for you or for him.


Revenge would feel sweet for only a short time, but a recovered marriage could bring joy for a lifetime. Don't sacrifice the latter for the former or the likelihood of the latter will be severely hampered.

JMO.

Mark

That's exactly right Mark. That's why I'm pondering or rather wallowing. How can I get a win-win situation.

How can I 'help' WH want to do things for me? Or is this a accept/settle situation. Another example:

Bathroom door hinge has been broken for months.He did try to fix it once after it was broke for a few weeks. Didn't work, came loose again. So I just let it go. Well yesterday feeling a bit blah I decided I'll fix it myself. Enough waiting, even with him complaining about it as much as me. So I go get the drill and the other necessary tools to move the hinge up. I didn't say anything to him at all, he was posting on his hunting forum. I wasn't looking for him to help, I just wanted the door fixed.

He came in a few minutes later to see what I was doing. He got visible flustered because I was trying to fix it. Said let me do that, I told him no I could do it. I wanted it fixed and I could do it, thank you. No sarcasm, just no and thank you. Well the eyerolling and flustered breathing started, so I gave him the screwdriver and he proceeded to fix the door. All the while visible agitated. I told him again I could do it, it wasn't necessary for him to get upset, but he insisted. Viola door now fixed. I thought great! We're both happy. He's still visibly flustered.

HOW do you respond to these type of sitations?????? I'm at a lost. I had no expectations from him to fix the door yesterday. What am I suppose to do? Just wait and wait??? If I do that he never gets around to it. If I do it myself he gets flustered. I'm confused how to work with this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Try doing it while he's not around. He may feel like you're "guilting" him into doing it by starting the task in his presence. My H would do the same thing. BTW, he did tell me a long time ago, that if I just gave him a written list of stuff to be done, he'd be more likely to do it.

Have you asked you H how he likes to be asked about chores?

Wait and wait......yup....this is what I do....until I have all the things DONE he's asked me to do.

I'm always behind on his list for me, so in the meantime, if something is dangerous, I'll just ask him to help me remove the risk.......usually it gets totally fixed...even if we have to hire someone.

In the past, I would have guilt-tripped him like you tried to do. (You didn't mean to, but ya did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ) No worries....just learn from it and next time...do it while he's not around like Bring suggested. Or ask him to help you do it together....I would even ask in a flirting manner...make it a silly game even.

(But that's just me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

Glad to see you taking a break on the Vacation Thread, mvg.

Ace

Ok I'm having a freakin' out moment here.

WH has been hot and heavy to get cell phones. I have been getting the run around on getting questions answered before we commit to this. We even went to the store to get answers but they gave me another # to call to get answers. H is upset. I 'thought' he was upset with me because I can't get the answers and he was expecting to walk out yesterday with cell phones. I asked him if he was upset with me he says no jsut can't get the answers, but still wants the cell phones.

Ok I plan to call today to see if once and for all get the questions answered and get the da## cell phones.

I do my normal prayer routine in this morning. Asking for guidance, wisdom, acceptance..yada yada.

I get in car to go to work AND it hits me...WHY is he so adamant about the freakin cell phones???????? Why the big rush???????

That's when stupid wife realizes, what a dipshi$ she is... my gut hurts, I feel sick, I betcha he's wanting to contact her. Right now the only way is his business phone. And if that gets to many unbusiness related calls corporate is gonna raise he$$. Am I a freakin' idiot or what???????

I don't have any proof. He's smart enough to delete #'s and messages. I'm such a fool.

Now what to do? Do I get him a cell phone and let him hang himself or just put off longer?

BringItOn & Ace, thanks for your responses. I was starting to reply and thought better of it. I'm not in the thoughtful mindset I should be so I'll reply later when I can at least be thoughtful.

If they are indeed in touch through phone (and he is so irritated that he can't contact with her), you know it's MUCH more than just a little flirting.

You need to get his cell phone statements for the last couple of months to see his calling records.

If you feel something in your gut, follow it.

My FWH and I had a joint account up until two springs past. HE wanted to switch service, so he wanted to get his OWN account (this was AFTER his first A, our first false recovery). I did it, and he was off and running in his A. I had no access to his phone records. I KNEW that something was up, but didn't really question it; I just boiled over with frustration and resentment, meanwhile, he started another EA.

I'm not saying this to alarm you, but to make you aware that your gut is putting up a red flag. Question this move, and do not be afraid to do it, albeit respectfully and with tact.

You must agree with him, do not be bullied into something that makes you this uncomfortable.

Breathe......

I agree absolutely that cell phones can be problematic. Are you setting up the phones together or two separate ones. Whichever, establish the boundary that you have complete acess to the call log on line or on paper. My DH offered this to me. It removes the erased call list. We also don't do text messages, I don't know if you can get a copy of the message, I don't think so. But he should be willing to give you complete access to the call list if he is into recovery..

Fled

He wants a family plan I would have a phone and so would he, 2 separate lines just shared minutes. We don't NEED cell phones. Neither of us is 'gone' enough to make that financial committment. We do have a prepaid phone that we use when either of us is on the road so his DESIRE to have a 'real' cell phone just to have it is just that his desire.

But it's his insistance that we have to get them. Of course he's said it's so he can call me when he's at work. But he's not a chit chatter, so I'm not really buying that PLUS if it's for emergencies or I'm going to be late type thing he HAS the company phone and as long as it's not abused they have no problem with him calling home.

What really got me anxious was after praying was when the thought as to WHY he really wants it hit me. I'm not such a religious person, or wasn't till his EA, BUT (this might sound strange) God is the one who plainly told me where to look and what to look for specifically on DDay. So I try to listen very carefully now.

So his only way to contact anyone outside of the house is by his company cell phone. So I cannot get any records. I've tried checking the phone for calls & messages but I can't for the life of me figure it out. I did ask him once just to show me how because I'm cellphone challenged, which he did, but he'd delete anything now I'm sure. So no proof just gut feelings.

Again, if you cannot agree 100%, then say so, EVEN if he fumes, who gives a [censored], let him (This is a bullying tactic). You can agree to revisit this in a certain allotted time, say 6 months, and see if he will agree to that. You are anxious for a REAL reason, mvg, do not ignore it, and be honest with your FWH about it.

mvg, I remember you posted those messages that was sent by the OW to your husband and there was something like "you were really good" said by the OW to your husband that might have indicated that they have done something together already.

His "coldness" not wanting to talk to you while driving and his lack of remorse while you're upset (and now the cell phone) might be some indication that he is already involved with this OW.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't communicate to him that you're suspicious because it will allert him to hide things more effectively.

I don't think I've posted to you before but reading your thread today got my attention.

MVG... what if... he just wants cells phones for the reason he said? Wouldn't he just go out on his own and get a cell phone if his motives were wrong? Why would he have you involved, especially if you're the one setting up the account-- with full access? Is there something I'm missing?

I don't think she has full access. His involving her might be just a way to save money and a way to hide the affair. Having an extra phone without her involvement will become very suspicious.

Sounds to me like they're doing this together. If that's the case, then she can just set it up where they BOTH have full access or just set it up under her name where she's the ONLY one with access to online records, passwords, etc.

Hi MVG,
Couple of things:

Are you sure that it is your gut telling you that he is contacting her?, or is it just the typical panic attack of the BS? I ask this because I don't recall any red flags that your H is still in contact with OW. I realize that he is procrastinating on several aspects of marriage building, but I had not been reading that as OW activity.

He wants the cell phones and is opting for the family plan where you share minutes and get one statement that will tell you incoming and outgoing phone calls with phone numbers. Sounds pretty open to your scrutiny. But you don't want the phones really because you don't feel that you and H need them as you have a pay as you go phone. So my question is--do you have joint agreement on buying them? and why are you buying them? I realize that it will give you the opportunity to make sure you have access, but he could go in and buy them and you could still make sure you have access. He procrastinates, so why have you agreed to set up this phone deal? Can he go set it up?
Lake

Gee, if it's the family plan and a two year commitment they can call each other for free and talk as long as they want. It also sounds like it is a commitment to at least two years together, at least in his thinking it might be.

I don't think it is OW related. If that was what he wanted he sounds smart enough to me to just get a hidden prepaid account and go with it.

What kind of questions are you having trouble getting answers to, MVG? I do work in the industry and might know the answer off the top of my head or know where to point you for that answer.

Is this a case of needing further POJA negotiating to arrive at a win-win solution? Is this a case of you just not wanting to deal with having a cell phone because of the financial burden if something happens to the family income? Is it just to stop him from having a phone that he MIGHT use to contact OW, though he'd surely be found out when the bill arrived?

From my POV, if he wanted to use the phone for further affair activity, he wouldn't be setting up a family talk account and giving you a phone too. It might be a way for him to check in with you to alleviate your fears and keep in touch while he is out to remain more connected. He might even be thinking that it is a small way for him to show his commitment to you and working on the marriage and using it to rebuild some of the trust. You can call him to see what he's up to as well.

Now if he had just showed up with a cell phone, that turned out to be a family talk account with two numbers and only one phone ever turned up, I'd be really suspicious...or if a bill for a phone magically appeared with no warning and he had never consulted you at all, it could be considered IB...

If the account is in his name, be sure he adds you as an authorized user with access to call records. If it is in your name, you get first shot at the bill every month and can keep track of his activity. Just doesn't sound like a big deal to me unless you have a specific reason for not having one of the da**ed things around all the time.

Normally, a post paid is much cheaper than prepaid unless the phone gets no use at all. Any carrier worth dealing with has at least 30 days to get out of the deal if it comes to that without an early ETF or even to exchange phones if you decide a different model is better for your use.

FWIW, the best phone is seldom the free phone, though price is not what makes a good phone good. Bells and whistles have no bearing on call quality, though network matters more than anything else in this regard. The top two are generally good in most places though in some places one is better than the other and vice versa. The lesser carriers are good in some locations but might be abysmal in others. There is one carrier who just lost their CEO recently that I think is going to go down further in quality before they get better. If it matters, I work for a dealer for number one.

To compare devices, check out www.phonescoop.com

JMO.

Mark

Are you sure that it is your gut telling you that he is contacting her?, or is it just the typical panic attack of the BS? I ask this because I don't recall any red flags that your H is still in contact with OW. I realize that he is procrastinating on several aspects of marriage building, but I had not been reading that as OW activity.
I don't know. Maybe it is panic attack Lake. I just don't know.

I don't think it is OW related. If that was what he wanted he sounds smart enough to me to just get a hidden prepaid account and go with it.
Mark, maybe it's not, maybe it's what you posted above his way of staying in contact with me.

I don't know what to think. It just hit me this morning...why is he so insistant? It Must be to talk to her again. I don't know. Maybe I'm just having a panic attack, maybe I'm reaching because I don't feel good. I hate this!

I think maybe the wisest thing to do right now is nothing. See when he brings it up again and maybe I'll feel better to just plain ask him.

I thank you all. Whether panic attack or truth I do appreciate your support.

I will. Thank you.

Ok, I'm calming down about the darn cell phones. I'm going back to a post I made yesterday.

Try doing it while he's not around. He may feel like you're "guilting" him into doing it by starting the task in his presence. My H would do the same thing. BTW, he did tell me a long time ago, that if I just gave him a written list of stuff to be done, he'd be more likely to do it.
Have you asked you H how he likes to be asked about chores? BringItOn

Wait and wait......yup....this is what I do....until I have all the things DONE he's asked me to do.I'm always behind on his list for me, so in the meantime, if something is dangerous, I'll just ask him to help me remove the risk.......usually it gets totally fixed...even if we have to hire someone.

In the past, I would have guilt-tripped him like you tried to do. (You didn't mean to, but ya did. ) No worries....just learn from it and next time...do it while he's not around like Bring suggested. Or ask him to help you do it together....I would even ask in a flirting manner...make it a silly game even. Ace

I can fix things, I like fixing things, I don't like waiting forever and a day when H says he'll fix it and never does. I'm not talking about he says he'll fix something and I expect it pronto...unless it dangerous of course. BUT MONTHS? And I have suggested we work/fix together. That still takes me NAGGING after weeks of waiting.

So if I just wait till he's not around and fix it myself how is that NOT going to be disrespectful to him? How is that NOT Independent Behavior?

I really truly didn't meant to guilt trip him. That was never a thought in my mind at the time. My thought was I want the door fixed so I'm going to do it. I can see since you pointed it out Ace that might make him feel guilty however it's not like I have even mentioned the door since the 2nd time it came lose. He said he was going to fix it, he didn't. It wasn't hours, or days, or weeks, several months had passed.

But it's not just the door or the greenhouse it's ANYTHING that I want. So how do I deal with this type of situation?
Sure I can do these things without him, I can do them when he's not here...but again I ask if he's agreed to these things and doesn't follow thru and I do them 'behind his back' how does that help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It feels like I'm tip toeing around him. I am truly confused.

uuuuwhoooooooooo I swear it's save to come back...

"I can fix things, I like fixing things, I don't like waiting forever and a day when H says he'll fix it and never does. I'm not talking about he says he'll fix something and I expect it pronto...unless it dangerous of course. BUT MONTHS? And I have suggested we work/fix together. That still takes me NAGGING after weeks of waiting.

So if I just wait till he's not around and fix it myself how is that NOT going to be disrespectful to him? How is that NOT Independent Behavior?

I really truly didn't meant to guilt trip him. That was never a thought in my mind at the time. My thought was I want the door fixed so I'm going to do it. I can see since you pointed it out Ace that might make him feel guilty however it's not like I have even mentioned the door since the 2nd time it came lose. He said he was going to fix it, he didn't. It wasn't hours, or days, or weeks, several months had passed.

But it's not just the door or the greenhouse it's ANYTHING"

I guess it could be independent behavior...I'm not sure how it would be classified. I also think of the poster who has in her signature line "I came here to change my H but ended up changing myself; my H changed because he wanted to."

That's where I'm trying to get to, not agonizing over something my H isn't doing, but also empowering myself to do the things that are important to ME (but not necessarily important to my H).

I may be way off base here.

I guess it could be independent behavior...I'm not sure how it would be classified. I also think of the poster who has in her signature line "I came here to change my H but ended up changing myself; my H changed because he wanted to." I may be way off base here.
BringItOn maybe that's my problem...I want to change for me BUT I ALSO want a better M. I'm not sure he's willing to do anything. I think he likes me spoon feeding him. I guess I'll just keep plugging along changing/improveing me and the chips will eventually fall where they will. I'm not feeling very hopeful right now.

Sorry if you've mentioned it but I've missed it, mvg, but are you guys in MC? If you haven't seen it today, check out my Smiles & Trials 2 thread about 'plugging along'. Our MC makes the difference for us, as you'll see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Ace, no MC. We tried IC but the counselor wasn't a good fit with WH so that's how we ended up here. When I found this site he thought it sounded like a better solution than a MC that didn't fit.

We live in a pretty rural area so not many MC around, well 2 counselors to be exact. There is a community counseling center however our daughter works for that corporation so that is a definate NO.

IF he would participate in MB I 'think' we'd be ok or at least BOTH realize that we need MC.

Funny/sad thing is I 'think' if I bring it up again he'll really be pi$$ed because then we definately wouldn't be able to get the cell phones! On top of that I don't 'think' he sees anything really wrong any more. For him it's a gone from his memory type thing. I'm meeting his EN's so apparently I'm over it.

Now I use "think" because those are my assumptions..and we all know what assumptions do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To keep my thoughts & posts togehter I copied my T/J Ace's Smiles & Trials.
From LA to Ace:

Oh LA what a simple explanation! I used to bet myself what my DH would do...so I could experience delight when he exceeded my DJ. A game, almost...just as a little girl, wishing hard for something (like a tether ball at Christmas) telling myself no way, ain't gonna happen, etc...so my delight IF I got it would skyrocket, and my disappointment, if I didn't get it, wouldn't drop me from the sky. This is where I'm working on myself because that's a perfect explanation of how I'm dealing with life. EWWW

Managing my emotions through my expectations, rather than being open. Reasonable for children...really tough on me as an adult...and I did that with my DH, instead of choosing not to know his response, and still appreciate, delight and connect with him. It is really tough...how did you do that?

Old patterns in me, Acey. Clean slates in our marriages...seeing with new eyes...not holding our partners nor ourselves to who we were, what we did, even in our expectations... Was it just YOU recognizing this or your H too?

All things are new again. I believe God sees me as new again, each day...his way. I'm aiming for that...and I see you new, Acey...wondering if you're experiencing being new, too. That's hard too. But working on it!

To know you are not lost at times, not wrong or doing something badly...is necessary to train your brain. Not stunted...not what you want now. Sure feels like being lost at times.

And you're sharing here, all the way, which to me, is glorious and needed and celebrated. Just like you. This is one of the most wonderful things to experience. Sharing! Caring! Especially from people that have been where you are now and care enough to expose themselves to help others.

La, do you think it's important for the spouse to 'see' the changes in yourself? I ask this because my WH doesn't see any changes in me. I feel the changes, not complete but work in progress. But with his not 'seeing' anything I wonder if I'm on the right track.

copied From Marks Musings:
Wishing For More and Missing The Miracle…
The way a wayward gets that way…

I place this here for lack of a better place to put it. It really is just more of my ramblings so I guess this is where it belongs.

In the book of Numbers the people of Israel have been led from Egypt, freed by Pharaoh following a series of miracles that finally caused him to relent and allow them to leave. Even after they were gone, he decided he was more powerful than any god, so he set out after them.

The Israeli camp was on the banks of a sea where they were trapped as the Egyptian army approached. God performed another miracle and parted the waters so the people could cross and then caused the water to come crashing down on the Egyptian army killing many. (For those who say it wasn’t the Red Sea but the “Sea of Reeds,” a shallow swampy marsh area NE of the Nile delta, consider the miraculous way the Egyptian army was drowned in so little water as the people of Israel with women, children and the old and infirm were able to pass without incident)

So the people received the Ten Commandments and all the Laws of God. As they traveled in the desert, God was daily supplying what they needed in order to survive. One of those needs was for food and for that purpose, God supplied for them manna. The Bible tells us that when the dew fell on the ground as the sun set, so did the manna. It looked like resin and the people gathered it in the morning six days per week and on the sixth, they gathered and prepared enough to last them the seventh day. But if they gathered two days worth on any other day, it would be spoiled and they would once again have to gather more.

But in chapter 11 of Numbers, some of the people are getting tired of just eating manna. They begin by comparing what they have (a miracle of God) with what they once had in Egypt (where they were slaves). In verse 4 of chapter 11 it says, the rabble among them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, “If only we had meat to eat! We remember the fish we ate at no cost – also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. But now we have lost our appetite: we never see anything but manna!” (Numbers 11:4 – 6 NIV)

First a note on the word “rabble” as it is used here. The word applies to a group that was actually Egyptian or part Egyptian in origin. These would have been Egyptians who had married into an Israeli family or had been hired as a servant of a Jewish family. When the final plague had come on Egypt, these people would have been spared because they were living with the Jews and so they were ushered off as part of that group when the exodus began.

But some of them likely never felt that they fit in with the others around them. They had not fully bought into the God of Israel thing and so were not fully committed to the cause. Much like Dr Harley’s “Renter” from “Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders” these folks were only marginally associated with the group from the very beginning. While they might have marveled at the miracles as they happened and no doubt delighted in Pharaoh getting his comeuppance as it were, they never really intended to commit to the way of life that God was leading them too.

So they began to long for things they did not have. Some of these might have been things they once did have, but once starting down that road, they no longer made a distinction between what they really had back in Egypt and those things they thought they “could have had” if they had stayed. Whether reality or fantasy didn’t really matter, because they began to feel sorry for themselves and their own lot in life and so wanted to be someplace else and have something they didn’t have. It wasn’t really even about not having what they wanted to eat so much as it was about not wanting to be where they were. Egypt, though they were remembering it fondly, was after all a place of slavery, not one of great wealth and freedom. It was where the Pharaoh (king) owned everything of value and portioned it out as he wished. To those of use to him or who had done favors for him, he gave more and to the rest of the people he gave less. And to these foreign Jews in the land, he gave very little in deed.

So God gave them meat to eat. He gave it to them not for a day, or two or a week, but a whole month. Birds (quail?) came seemingly from nowhere to cover the ground. It says that “the least” of them collected 60 bushels of the suckers. God promised they would have meat until it came out their nostrils and they hated it, and so that is what they got.

But as they ate it, it made them sick and in fact many of them died as a result, and all because they wanted something they did not have and wished for a life that was not theirs, though what they did have and what was theirs was a miracle of the living God who had brought them there and had provided water from a rock, a stream in the middle of the dry desert and even food that was free for the taking, always enough and never too much so that it had to be carried from place to place. It arrived when they needed it in the place they were and so many missed the fact that it was really all they needed and sought other things they didn’t have instead.

Some who become wayward are like the rabble that never really felt they fit in and were never really committed to the relationship. They enjoyed the perks of being part of the marriage, the house and car and clothes, but had forgotten the part about “for better or for worse.” And eventually they begin to wish for things they do not have. There is always a bigger or newer car, a finer house, and nicer clothes. Not being content with what they have, they begin to seek other things that they don’t have.

As they begin to compare what they have to what they don’t have, they make an unfair comparison. For what they don’t have is not real, but merely a fantasy. It doesn’t really exist as they think of it or even as they remember it from before. It is not better by any means but only different.

But they continue to grumble and complain, longing for those things they lack. It’s only manna, the people shouted, when it was really life itself. And for the wayward who is about to destroy all that is real for a fantasy that doesn’t exist but as a phantom of their imaginings, the life they have is no match for what they desire. As they meet another person who feeds this fantasy they begin down a road from which few can return of their own accord.

“What I have is of no value,” they claim and the other person shouts “amen!” What I need is someone who takes my wishes into consideration, someone who doesn’t care if I get the housework (or yard work) done and desires me for whom I am. What I have now isn’t like that. All I have is this same old thing I’ve had for so long.

And as they feed off of each other’s complaints and grumbling, the spouse waiting at home is colored with broad strokes as someone who doesn’t understand, can’t provide what is desired and was a lost cause from the very beginning. The about to be betrayed spouse is not a provider of all that I have but the one preventing me from having what I want. Because they are standing in my way, they must be unworthy, at least less worthy and so I am justified further in my desires.

And like the people who complained that God had brought them into the desert to die and didn’t really care for what they wanted, the wayward cries out for satisfaction of their desires above all else. They no longer care that they have what they need or even a surplus, because it isn’t what they want. “I want more,” they cry, and the other person shouts “amen.”

And so often it isn’t until they get what they desire and find that it is as poison to them that they begin to understand that what they had was what God intended from the beginning and that it was all they required. Not until the fantasy shatters and the things they desire, that they once thought to be all that mattered start to make them sick do they see that what they thought they wanted wasn’t real after all, but only an illusion created by their own imagination and compared unfairly to the best that God could provide, if only they would have accepted it and not chased after things from far away that were never as they thought they were at all.

Just some thoughts… Mark

Mark you wrote this for Waywards and how they get that way. I thank you, I think this is a wonderful explanation. My questions rise from the BS point of view and how this applies to us.

Wishing for things we don't have...
Not being content with what we do have...
What I have is of no value...
Standing in the way...
What God intended..

As a BS I wish for things I don't have anymore, and maybe never did it, just never happened previsouly (EA). Trust, Hope, Security, Faith in WH.

Contentment: Is God asking me to accept only what WH is willing to do and not expect more? When I so much want a better M, the way I 'think' God intended.

No Value: BS are decieved by waywards,what we 'thought' had value (M vows) apparently does not for them. It's extremely hard to rediscover value after this deceit, not only of the M but of ourselves. I know it's not truly about us, but it sure feels like it.

Standing in the way: As a BS I want/need changes..trust restored, hope, security, love. My WH holds back on these. Gives crumbs not a whole meal of himself.

What God intended- Looking back for me, I see some problems we have in our M. I'm willing to correct what I'm capable of correcting, make better what I can, etc. My WH is not whole heartedly participating in recovery. He is content with forgetting and not seeing all the damage that needs repair. He thinks he's trying to repair by saying the ILY's, hugs, kisses. Not by giving all of himself just a small portion.

Much has been stated on this site about improving/changing/recognizing your (BS) part in the R, and you can't change your WH. I agree with that.

So what does God intend for BS's? What is he asking us to be content with, to value? Where is the BS's hope in this life?

MVG,

What question might I have an answer to?

Mark

Mvg,

What are your own priorities in recovery?

Transparency
Communication
UA time (RC time)
Grieving
Help with triggers
Intimacy
P/A behaviors

All of these have boundaries, with predetermined, progressive enforcements.

Not about him doing or not doing...you doing and not doing.

Order your life to what is most important within your marital recovery...and flip these over and see if you are also holding yourself to them in your personal recovery. See what order they are in for you.

LA



Mark,

Thank you for yet another fantastic post. Lots for me to ponder and appreciate.

LA

MVG,

That may seem like a strange question to you, but I ask because I think you have answered most of your own questions as you asked them.

As a BS you once had unlimited undeserved unwavering trust that your H would not do anything to hurt you. As LA might say...wasn't real. It was your expectation but not reality.

This is part of the devastation when a BS first finds out about an affair. We ask, "How could he/she do this to me?" But soon we are asking "How could I have been so naive?"

While we all wish things could return to what we remember, those things weren't real at all. We miss the blind trust we had. We miss the simple pleasure of not having to think about how an affair might happen in the future. We dream of days when we knew we were in love and that was all that mattered.

But NONE of that was reality. It was what we longed for, wished for and pretended we already had, but it wasn't there.

Which now puts the BS in a very bad and vulnerable situation. We are now the ones longing for what "might have been" and seeking something we thought we once had.

While it was the WS that chose to break the vows of exclusivity, the BS probably didn't do what was needed to guard those vows from attacks. We didn't protect our marriage because we didn't realize it could be attacked so easily. We believed that the vows were enough and now we find that they were not.

As for what God is asking of you...That is a tough one. I don't know if I have that answer, but I think you do. You just haven't put it all together yet.

If I have learned anything about God it is that I am not Him or even very much like Him. What I think of as perfect He considers trash. What I think is the right way to handle a problem He calls selfishness on my part.

Your husband doesn't share all of himself because he hasn't learned to do it or even that he needs to do it. As the BS you can say "Of course he should know," but he doesn't. He never did those things before and that was part of what led you to this place. How would he now just begin doing those things that were never a part of him before? The hard part is that YOU can't make him understand and change. You can help guide his thinking, praising him when he gets it right and telling (not chastising) him when he gets it wrong.

To him the way to survive is by keeping life from interfering with necessity. Like most men he has a "family" room, a "work" room, a "wife" room and a "friends" room. He only allows functions needed to operate in any given room to manifest themselves in that room. When he is with you, it might be all about you, but when he is at work, you are not allowed to be there in his mind. So now he has a "mistakes" room where he is burying (attempting to any way) the affair. In order for you to get in there, you can't kick down the door, but must be invited in. He must admit you into each aspect of his life. You must simply keep knocking on the doors in stages. He might let you into family and then friends and then work and eventually he might allow you into the room where he has tried to hide his failures.

The problem is that you can't make him get this and change everything he has ever done in life over night. He needs to understand that there is a problem and then agree that it is a problem before he can address the problem to your satisfaction. Unless he just accepts your telling him it's a problem and nods his head without really agreeing with you...(sort of the old "Yes Dear" kind of whiny sigh of the cartoons and sitcoms) you won't even get an acknowledgment of the problem from him very often.

Your last question is the easiest of all to answer. What God expects from us and what He wants us to have our hope in is HIM. He has a plan for us (Jer 29:11) that doesn't require us to understand why things happen to us that we don't want only that we trust in Him that He understands the why and how. Some day we might understand but perhaps then it won't really matter to us. Colossians 1:17 says that in Him all things are held together. The implication is that it is in Him that all things have their meaning or purpose and that in all things He has an active role. He isn't the glue that is put in place and is then forgotten. He is the one actively holding the entire universe together by His own will and effort.

Though we don't understand why these bad things have come our way, He has a plan that can turn them into something of value, not only to us (Jer 29:11) but also His greater plan for the world. Note this is NOT the same as saying He caused this pain to happen, only that He can use it to His glory and our benefit if we rely on Him and find our hope in Him and draw our strength from Him...(Psalm 40:1-5)

Mark

Though we don't understand why these bad things have come our way, He has a plan that can turn them into something of value, not only to us (Jer 29:11) but also His greater plan for the world. Note this is NOT the same as saying He caused this pain to happen, only that He can use it to His glory and our benefit if we rely on Him and find our hope in Him and draw our strength from Him...(Psalm 40:1-5)
I agree.

Thank you for your responses. You all make me think more deeply than I really care to at this moment, but I do and I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Sometimes it's the depths of thoughts that can make the rollercoaster ride seem smoother.

I just made that up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm not as good as Mark, am I.....<sigh> I'll just go to bed now.

Ace

Sometimes it's the depths of thoughts that can make the rollercoaster ride seem smoother.

I just made that up. I'm not as good as Mark, am I.....<sigh> I'll just go to bed now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> thanks Acey!

Thanks for suggesting that the Enabling thread be a progress check for those of us dealing with overcoming enabling, controlling, CA, CD behaviors. I was going to let it slide, but you're right...there's alot more help available through our progress stories.

Acey

PS, I slept well but I still can't figure out what the heck my depth statement means.......<sigh> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LOL

I haven't quite figured it out either! Smoother on a rollercoaster, hummmmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I once owned a Rambler...

Now I am one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mark

ROTFL!!

mvg.....see how fun threads get started? (Except for the 20-90 Something thread...instead it started as an exclusive 50 Something Fun thread and has expanded.)

How ya doin' on the enabling issues? Saw that you posted a mini-success on the enabling thread....way to go, baby steps, one in front of the other.

Keep going, mvg. Great progress so far.

Ace

LOL well I don't know about great progress, there was LBing and DJing mixed right in there with the non-enabling! But not as severe as in the past. Which when I consider as crummy as I feel and emotions VERY tender as good.

Got a darn cold on top of the UTI/kidney thing, congested, can't sleep, RIF is apparently ASLEEP on night shift <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> no one around....a little creepy.

What are your own priorities in recovery?

Transparency
Communication
UA time (RC time)
Grieving
Help with triggers
Intimacy
P/A behaviors

All of these have boundaries, with predetermined, progressive enforcements.

Not about him doing or not doing...you doing and not doing.

Order your life to what is most important within your marital recovery...and flip these over and see if you are also holding yourself to them in your personal recovery. See what order they are in for you.

LA I have given this thought and realize I still have a ways to go on my own recovery. I feel I'm making progress, then opps down the hill I go. But I am starting to recognize when I'm in a downslide..usually once I land unfortunately.

You say all those priorities listed have boundaries with predetermined, progressive enforcements. I guess that's where I need some assistance. There are certain things I 'know' what my boundaries are and the enforcements ie, OW not friends of M/unacceptable. Still there are those priorities I'm not certain what the boundaries should look like, nor what type of enforcement. Communication is one. To me what I seek in communication is a 2 way dialoge. Hard to do that when the other person won't/doesn't participate. I KNOW I can't make them communicate, I accept that fact, so do I just communicate my part and walk away? Part of me feels that is more demanding, judemental, demeaning, and controlling then trying to find a way to have a 2 way dialoge.

Someone please hit me with the "I finally get it stick"!

mvg,

Even when you land on the downside...you land. You stop falling. There's a beauty in that, kiddo. Keep it in mind.

I think the slips are as essential as the climb, btw. Helps us to re-experience what we did before with new eyes...and sounds to me like you're really seeing the difference, choose to stop and re-orient.

Big kudos in there. I just know it. Probably can't hear them in your head because of all the phlegm.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Going bottom to top in your post...there is no one outside of you wielding your "finally get it stick"...when you are ready, you'll feel it...and it will be from ephiphanies inside you, about you and for you. There's no deadline or pass/fail. When your desire to change rises higher than to not change, you'll get it.

Because it's already inside of you, waiting.

You want to have two-way dialogues. You only control your half of them. You know that. Still you want them, you seek them. Your focus is on the outcome, then, isn't it? You won't feel successful, significant or whole unless you get that outcome?

I think this is understandable for the way you've lived your life up until now. Not realizing where you put your intent (to get a two-way dialogue) actually cut off that outcome. Sit back for a moment and relax your shoulders, sip your hot tea (snort the steam), and ponder...do you set yourself up to not get what you desire most through your choice of intent?

You asked do you share your part and then just walk away...and I didn't see another alternative packaged in there...like sharing your part and staying present. Two choices there...both have what is within your control...sharing your part. Until you do, you won't break your own pattern of speaking to get a response.

It's like the difference between taking and receiving. Not easy stuff to nail down and see clearly. Begins with your intent.

So part of the boundary around you is to add these two words into your thoughts and words...your beliefs. "Right now." When you speak, FWH may not choose to respond right then. That's reality. No nevers in it. FWH has the same opportunity to share as you do...comes again every moment. That's built-in...not you doing, 'k?

So each time you know and share...stay present or remove your presence, his opportunity remains.

You sharing actually removes the demand you've been experiencing prior to doing this...where you speak and he MUST answer, in order to fulfill your intent to have a two-way dialogue. How you speak of your stuff determines whether it is judgmental or demeaning. He can experience it that way, even when your words are not. That's where it crosses that intangible line...takes one to speak and one to perceive. All you can check is your half.

Adding "right now" into when you share, what you are feeling, thinking, believing, perceiving right now...opens up you to see him responding right now (not forever) or not. Are you open to hear if he shares? Listen and repeat if he makes that choice? Then that's a two-way dialogue...your half.

Takes time and trust building of sharing and letting go the response (or working to get one). Because your listener may be mapping (not hearing), expecting a trap of judgment, proof of being a fool, dodging what he perceives as controlling (only two answers...right or wrong...which can stop any answer from coming out at all).

Over time, that trust is built...she's really sharing her stuff with me...no traps, no throwing my words back in my face, no cleverness to control, to look like a victim of me, no judgment...which is reinforced by listen and repeat...striving first to understand, then be understood.

As you practice your sharing, you reveal your own inner thoughts without judging them right or wrong...just real or not. You add in the "right now" and you share even your assumptions "I fought hard against myself to just share my stuff...felt like my stuff was dangerous, so I had the DJ that I would be demanding, judgmental, demeaning and controlling if I shared without my goal set on finding a way to have a two-way dialogue."

There's no answer to that sharing. There's knowing and understanding. There's opportunity for resonation...and there's evidence you are owning your half of communication and intimacy. There's also room for sharing back...not in direct response to change what you're sharing...room to have your words repeated as heard, acknowledge. Lots of room respecting what only he controls.

In your ingredients for two-way conversations, are you saying you want to include questions for the opportunity for response? Your listener can respond, anyway. Questions can be perceived as controlling (most traps are laid with innocuous questions) because we are programmed to answer them when asked, and failures when we do not.

Asking "why" questions was something I had to eliminate in my own boundaries...understanding that they aren't what they appear to be...and a key to when my focus is more on getting information (sharing) out of my DH than on knowing the why answer in myself. Very sneaky.

These are the first steps, the getting back to basics...not forever..not how it will always be. Listen and repeat; O&H drive bys are the amends for years of having my focus all over someone else. They build into wonderful communication skills...one sharing at a time.

So that's one example of a healthy boundary to put around yourself...the "right now" add on. You identified a large one...NC with OW...what is your predetermined, progressive bondary enforcements around contact?

Is another boundary around yourself openness and honesty? Sharing your stuff is an ACT of O&H. Do you hold yourself to it? And when you don't, is your focus on your own boundary or his possible response?

Are you reading Tama's thread, btw, Getting To The Point? She put in succinct words what I've struggled to say for a long time. And I think of it now because of all the reasons you may believe sharing your own stuff isn't holding yourself to your boundary of O&H, but rather seeing it as demanding, judgmental, demeaning and controlling. Root causes in us...sure was for me.

Would you consider your desire is higher for two-way dialogue because how your FWH reflects you in words of conversation is how you get to see yourself? And the threat you may perceive in sharing your own stuff is because then you will not be a reflection...you'll be sharing your real self? Not bounced back or originating from your partner's opinion...you'll be sharing your own of yourself, right now?

LA

LA again alot to digest. And maybe I am making headway. I did have a conversation with my H not to belittle,judge or whatever..well sorta kinda, he did do something that was very thoughtless and in a CALM way I did tell him I didn't appreciate him doing that and expecting me to go along with it. So I don't know maybe I DJed all around. BUT I really didn't expect a response from him, it was to SHARE, not necessarily under the best circumstances but it was to share MY stuff. IF he had responded back would have been great but I truly didn't expect any response.

IF I making progress then I can only assume it's because I don't 'feel well' and my defenses are down and I was able to do it in a calm fashion and not really giving a hoot if he responded or not. I dunno.

I still have alot to digest from what you posted, 'right now' though I need to chew on it awhile. Again, Thank you.

La I read Tama's thread. Thank you for recommending it. Sad to see so many people that have the same issues, fear, guilt, worthlessness.

I'm still picking apart your earlier post. It sure would be nice to just have an outine/flowchart somewhere...answer yes or no and it points you to the next question and at the bottom is THE SOLUTION?????? Oh well..guess not.

Yesterday I thought about owning MY feelings so I planed on practicing my conversational skills last night. I'm not sure how I did. At first I thought good, then maybe progressed to not so good. Well before I got to my planned conversation..just stating how I felt, H hits me with a question I wasn't prepared for, and I'm not sure how well I handled that either. HELP?

Little history, Oct 20 was daughter's wedding, Oct 24 I started with UTI and possible kidney stones, still dealing with alot of pain this week, on top of him deciding that our GS (3) needed to come spend the night with us, then I caught a horrible cold by Thursday night. The whole GS coming to spend the night opened a can of worms with DD because we didn't want to get the infant twins at the same time. She said we're playing favorites and doesn't appreciate it. Now we've not had GC spend the night with us in MONTHS before the twins were born. Twins are now 4 months old. So he dealt with that because I wouldn't. However he made a deal ok GS this weekend, twins next weekend. So I'm feeling terrible, GS had left a few hours before, H had been out hunting off and on all day leaving me mostly with GS and he comes in and says....I know you're not feeling well but......stands there with this shi% eating grin on his face and says would you...before he could finish I said sarcastically sure...he finishes with a little sexual favor request. I'm thinking YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...he wasn't. I didn't. ugh ugh ugh

He seems to accept the no and the evening goes by. Well over the last couple of weeks I've been feeling him withdrawing some...going back to old ways of ignoring me. Right before going to bed I told him I really miss you not pulling me close and wrapping your arms around me at night. (I didn't say but thought, like you did right after dday).
His response was I 'thought' I was. I told him no and I missed it. He informed me I must be hallocenating because he just knew he was doing that. This set off a trigger because on DDay he informed me I was overreacting because my brain chemicals weren't right...yeah just because I'm on AD's?!

I never yelled, or raised my voice last night but I was hurt by his response.

How could I have handled this differently/better?

Ok confession along with above question. I have felt his withdrawal, it hurts me. I haven't changed my reactions to him but I am scared...look back last week over my total freak out on cellphones. So I stated my feelings on at least sleeping with him...I miss your touch. What outcome did I expect? I really didn't expect him to say anything. I 'thought' he'd either be aware of I missed his touch and try to remedy that, or ignore my feelings as he has in the past by 'not thinking' of me, his words not mine, and I know if something was up again. Ok maybe I should have put the question here...How could I have handled this differently/better?

So I'm feeling terrible, GS had left a few hours before, H had been out hunting off and on all day leaving me mostly with GS and he comes in and says....I know you're not feeling well but......stands there with this shi% eating grin on his face and says would you...before he could finish I said sarcastically sure...he finishes with a little sexual favor request. I'm thinking YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...he wasn't. I didn't. ugh ugh ugh

Rereading this I wonder if this was a co-dependency test? Stupid me ACTUALLY for a split second thought of giving him what he wanted...then I thought I don't feel like it, I don't want to, and I can't believe he's asking.

Hummmm, I have to reflect why wouldn't he expect me to comply? I usually do because I'd rather not be happy than him. Revelation? I wonder. OR is it the GREAT advice I get here?! Maybe a bit of both, because without the advice of treating myself as I would a friend, being kind to myself...I wouldn't have recognized what I was really doing. Disrespecting myself.

THANK YOU, please just don't leave me hanging alone to long tho, cause I'm sure I STILL have plenty to learn.

You're moving so fast, mvg, that I can't even keep up with you. In fact, when I read your name, MOVING is the first word that came to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take your time with all these new concepts. You can't possibly digest and implement all of them at once. When I was in E-therapy with LA, I took one paragraph at a time.

Baby steps.

Eventually I started to toddle, then walk, and after what happened with DH's massage therapy session over the weekend, I felt like I was going in leaps and bounds.

But I digress. (I DJ'd big time ~ but caught myself ~ the next day.)

Constant forward progress....little by little......that's what will count in the long run.

Have you read Charlotte's thread yet? That woman is leaping and bounding with seemingly very little fear. BUT she is very cautious and open to learning as well as quick to acknowledge errors and change courses. We can all learn alot from her.

Keep it up mvg....you'll get it sooner if you don't overwhelm yourself in your zeal to process all these new eye-opening concepts.

Hope your cold is better and that you can get some sleep soon.

Ace

I know Ace baby steps, I think being sick (pneumonia) has my emotions on high alert, maybe for the good this time, recognizing hope & love. Cross my fingers.

I haven't read Charlotte's thread yet...but I hope to soon.

I did get sleep last night thankfully. Still up too early (5 ish) but hey fell asleep at 8 last night. At least sleeping straight thru the night I feel a little better.

When is vacation for you?
Thanks for checking in on me!

Mvg,

I'm seeing your illnesses as a signal to you...what you are not doing in your life. I see it as the cure coming in from the outside.

Say "Ouch" right now, out loud. Again. Louder. Say "No" calmly, directly. Look in the mirror, look into your own eyes. Repeat..."Ouch." "No."

Permit yourself to act from honesty. "No, that's not what I want right now." "Yes, that is what I want right now."

Your H made the arrangements for the weekend with GS. When he left to go hunting, GS is either picked up, H drops him off on his way...even though it isn't planned, 'k? Stop enabling H...stop getting in the way of his consequences...own YOURS.

Revoke your permission to agree to anything before asked. Commit to taking one full minute to answer...so you break your automatic yesses. Revoke your permission to speak sarcastically, it's abusive...and breaks down communication.

Take care of yourself and know that you are not love busting when you are honest and say, "I am looking out for my ill health right now. I'm not going to do the floors, no matter how awful they are. I'm my top priority because I'm half of my marriage."

I'm delighted you did listen to your H, accept his help...sorry you discounted it right away and robbed yourself of that great love deposit. I think it snuck in, anyway.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I am working on the honesty issue really hard. The whole GC issue is complicated,and even tho I didn't need the additional taking care of someone else it was a GREAT time for us. I AM very glad we kept him, it did my heart good.

Honestly, I don't think I discounted his offer to help. I should've recognized I needed to rest. It made my heart swell with love and hope that he did those chores for me. He wouldn't have before. I see this as big step forward...actually thinking of me, which he has said on more than one occassion he doesn't always do. (I would say always is a big stretch but that's just my opinion).

And I will practice the taking a minute to contemplate a question BEFORE answering before asked.

Ok, I finally made it thru your entire thread! Yeah! Wow...I feel like I just read my life. We have so many of the same fears and issues. I will take a while to digest all that I read..especially LA's stuff. It was extremely helpful. Now I feel like I have a better grasp of your situation. Thank you for passing on the wisdom on my thread. I appreciate it.

Hey lady!

I just wanted to drop in and say howdy. Hope you are feeling better. I've had my own issues to deal with lately. Had the flu this week, and I'm just now feeling better; my joints hurt so bad I felt like a REALLY old woman.

I keep up with your thread because you get some great advice pertinent to all those in recovery, especially PERSONAL recovery.

I had myself a mini-breakdown this weekend, and was really scared, but I waited until I was ready to post before acting, and now I have a better plan, a better view of reality. The 2x4's helped immensely.

SL I hope you are feeling better. The flu will knock you on your butt won't it?! I don't know that I feel much better, but a little. Hopefully just resting and not doing anything considered work will help. I hope the antibiotics start kicking butt soon.

And I have to agree with you I do get GREAT advice. I count myself very fortunate.

SL, glad you got good advice too. Sometimes those 2x4's are needed on our apparently thick skulls huh?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey GC! Glad you found your way over...LA's stuff is very ...I can't even come up with a word..I wanted to say thick, sturdy, nurishing, ALOT to wade through and give deep serious thought to. The only thing close I can think of is homemade bread...thick, nurishing, warm, so good you want to rush thru but really need to take your time to eat and digest it well.

Wow, mvg, what a great analogy for LA's wisdom. It really is like coming home, isn't it. Except she's leading you back to yourself...

Yes she does. Thankfully with me she started with you have to like yourself first and treat yourself as you do your family & friends. I've had a hard time with that, but I'm starting to get the hang of it and it feels good. Not selfish as I thought originally...well not totally selfish, still working on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had posted this on another thread. Had a question asked and responded.

Am I getting it? Or am I still off the beaten path?

I posted
Smile: H has stepped up!Sunday I was really feeling bad, I mean BAD, not sick vomit type sick, just I knew something was really wrong. Even with that the house work has to get done right? I mean how many woman unless they are in the hospital even when sick don't get the dishes done, throw that 1 load of laundry in the washer?! Stupid us. Well my thing I had to vacuum and mop the kitchen. It was beyond nasty. Yucko! He actually vacuumed, and then while I was starting to mop came in, took the mop, said go lay down, rest, here's the remote, just rest, I'll do this! UNBELIEVABLE! Maybe my good guy is coming back..even better.
Trial: My expectations that my good guy is coming back and it won't only be when I'm really down and out, but all the time
Lifeschoice: Have you flat out told him this? Since my A and through our rebuilding one of the most important things my DH and I have learned is to communicate EXACTLY what we want and not require the other to mind read. It's amazing how well it works.

My response to LC, I have NOT told him this directly yet. We have talked about not being able to read each other's mind I have also talked about NOT to 'think' you know what the other will do for example I wouldn't have thought I'd still be here after being betrayed. As a matter of fact that was my ONE big boundary when we got married. However here I am, working on a way to overcome and rebound our M.

Now I will concede up front my thinking might be squewed (sp)...I do thank him for helping, and taking care of me. This has not been a strong point for him. I do look for and recognize his efforts and acts of love not necessarily the way I'd like, but I do now look and recognize. This has not been my strong point.

I feel like we're still in the rediscovery of what we've taken for granted for so many years. Still learning. I'm still learning how to accept his ACTIONS of love vs. his verbal statements (my desire). He GAVE those to another W when I had TOLD him EXACTLY what I wanted/needed and he still didn't do them. There were very few actions of love and even less of the verbal reassurances I crave. He knows about MB, he knows the easy way to find alot of answers are at his fingertips (ENQ's), HN/HN book, this site, he has choicen NOT to use those.So for right now I'm letting him find his own way.

IMO he's taking the long bumpy way, but I guess as long as we get to the same destination eventually whichever road he takes won't matter the results will. I pray that he'll pick up the pace realizing I do need to get to the destination, I hope it will be with him. But these are his choices to make right now.

Got a little surprise yesterday in our email...OW sent a joke....it was sent only to a 3 people including my H. Makes me wonder if she's testing the waters again.

Also makes me wonder if WH really hasn't contacted her.

MAKES ME WONDER?! Mind games going on all day with myself. Everything comes right back to the forefront of my mind. I've given myself a headache from all the 'what if's'.
Makes me doubt WH's caring motives right now...are they true or is he playing me again. I HATE THIS.

Did he send her a NC letter? How far does she live? How did you found out about this email?

Mvg,

About the joke...and this being FWH's work email...I didn't see where you told me why he couldn't change his work email address?

Did I miss it?

Same for blocking her email address either in a block list on his webmails (which comes into his Outlook) or within his Outlook?

If he has webmail (not Exchange), then he could also have his mail go to his inbox and to yours...both. Seems you need to know about contact...this wouldn't tell you of his contact with her...would tell you of hers with his...after it was blocked.

I don't know his setup at work, an IT dept or not...he could put a keylogger on his computer at work, if his employer allowed him to, which would email you reports.

Doing the idea brainstorming here...not knowing what you guys have brainstormed or not. Seems important and necessary to me, though.

You're a team against OW...every step he takes to be transparent knocks her out of your marital boundary, doesn't it?

New orbits.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm of the mind that as much as technology has the ability to trap us, so it does to free us.

(As for wisdom, y'all...I read a quote that said wisdom comes from self-knowledge. It's not a talent, not a gift...and yeah, I learned it in a book.)

(((mvg))) (((Windstopped and Mopey)))

LA

NO not his work email OUR home email. I did block her now I didn't realize she had that info.

Just messes with my mind. Things are improving here, I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Love the quote LA!

RIF, on the fishing thread you said:
At first , it was just her telling me that she was willing to try and answer my questions. As I got better at making a safe place for her, she opened up more and more. It was hard for me to finally "get it" that I was the one that was holding us back.

Your last sentence has really made me stop and think. I think I'm holding us back too by still having some questions that haven't been answered. I'm not sure without those answers at this point I'll be able to put this behind us. Even though WH is making efforts I'm still hesitant to believe his actions are sincere.

Did you find the same thing with yourself? And how did you come terms with her A's and leave it behind?

I'm having a hard time with trust. I'm having a hard time in believing my WH is sincere. I don't want to be hurt so badly again and I don't know how to do this.

Hey mvg,

One day in MC, our MC asked me this question: "RIF, how will you KNOW for sure that Mrs. RIF is telling you the truth?"

This question got me to really thinking... because I had become obsessed with wanting to know each and every detail... and I mean every little stinking, dirty, detail... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

After I thought about it for a bit, I said that there really wasn't any way for me to absolutely KNOW that Mrs. RIF was telling me the truth... Our MC asked me what Mrs. RIF's actions were showing me(this was after Mrs. RIF had started telling me that she would try and remember the answers to my questions instead of just saying 'I don't know' or 'I don't remember').

So, for me, Mrs. RIF's actions were showing me that she was not the same person that she was when she had her A's. She was trying to remember, but her ACTIONS were trustworthy... it was my fear of being hurt again that was holding us back.

I think that every BS comes to this point at sometime in the rebuilding process. It's a scary time... your instincts are so tuned to anything that even hints of a dishonest act by our FWS.

Again, it took us about 2.5 years for me to get to this point... your H is going to have to show you consistant, trustworthy actions for a long period of time before you will even begin to trust him...

Hope this answers your questions, if not, let me know and I'll give it another try! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF, that does help. I was wondering if my fears were normal or crazy.

I do ask myself, what can WH DO/SAY at this point I would KNOW was the truth....makes me think, but I still don't have a whole answer other than LA has taught me to watch his actions, see his love even if it's not the way I like. And I do see actions that are changing.

I hope time does in fact heal all wounds.

Mimi is leaving the forums according to her new thread, but she quoted this on my poem thread Beyond THE BEFORE.....and added a phrase that I think is very important, mvg.

Time does heal all wounds, as long as the wounds are being treated.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

MB, MC, IC, support group, posting on this forum.....all are healing treatments that will be enhanced with time.

Untreated, wounds fester and ooooooze and gunk up communication over time.

Just my 2 cents worth. Glad you're seeing results with your WH....soon to earn his "F" as in 'former'.

You're a great addition to these forums, mvg and I love seeing your posts on the fishing thread and the vacation thread, too.

Ace

Thanks Acey! I feel very fortunate to have found MB and all the wonderful folks here. I've learned and still learning so much from so many people, especially LA who has held my hand through alot of personal realizations.

I've noticed the last few days my WH will walk up to me while on this site, sorta glancing quickly of course to see what I'm doing....I wish he'd just ask. LOL oh well! He was really intrigued when I was responding to the fishing thread. Maybe he's ready to experience some of what I'm learning here. Maybe I should tell him more definatively why I'm here.

I'm trying to address my 'fears' with him. In trying I mean I'm thinking about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I've been re-reading all the posts to gather my courage to have a 'sharing' moment-no expectations just sharing. (Do you like that LA???? something STUCK).

Well I've been trying to have a conversation with H all weekend...he's been very hesitant. So I've just left it alone.

I will say H has been very attentive. I am pleased with that, but also thoughts of is he trying to pull the wool over my eyes again. I want to believe his intentions are honest and true, I just can't. I am torn between feeling like an idiot for not being able to believe him, and an idiot for thinking I can.

I really wish there was a truth only button we could push.

For me, a year after D-Day #4, I am closer to the truth button, but I can't push it, I only can observe it.

I'll post about it on my Smiles and Trials thread cuz it was a factor in this trial on our vacation.

Like Mimi said, mvg, it takes time AND TREATMENT. My H is very willing (and often instigates) treatment...reading, praying, talking. He never brings up A talk....YET....but that might come with more time and treatment.

He will most likely never post on MB (like tst), but that's probably due to the fact that he does not like to write.....(his alien did, but not him).

So listen, watch and wait.....and your gut will tell you lots. I still feel like you do when I go into his voice mail, when I ask him what he's thinking and he hesitates before he answers, when he goes home after telling me he's going somewhere else and forgets to update me and many other times.

His sincere apologies when I trigger (and his vows to remember next time) keep me rebuilding trust. For me, this is how he shows he values and cares about me.

They say it will take about 2 years....now I know why.

Ace

Hey MVG,

Yep, I know the feeling well... The more transparent and open your H is, the less you will fell like an "idiot" for wanting to trust him.

You guys are still very early in the rebuilding stage, so for now, your feelings seem to be right on track. I would make one small suggestion though...

When your H is being attentive, open, honest, and trustworthy... LET HIM KNOW!!! You don't have to get all gushy about it, but give him some positive feedback.

The goal here is to reinforce the positive instead of whacking him with the negative (which is VERY easy to do as a BS).

Most men have admiration in their top 10 ENs... even though you might not 'admire' him right now, giving him some positive feedback will help him understand that he is on the right track.

Hopefully, your positive reinforcement of his honesty will encourage him to continue and open up even more with you.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks Ace & RIF!

Finally last night I asked H if he had a few minutes, he got the 'deer in the headlight' look but said yes. I told him all weekend I've wanted to talk to him, no tv, no distractions and he had avoided that...he wouldn't admit it when I asked if he thought this was going to be a complaining conversation, but his body language made me think that. I told him all I wanted to talk about was how happy I have been seeing him make changes, being attentive and thoughtful! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I told him I still have some not so good days BUT I was seeing the changes in him. I asked him if there were things I could do that would show him how much I wanted our M to improve and wanting to put this behind us. He said no, I was doing everything I could. We had a little laugh when I said are you saying I'm not capable of doing more or I'm meeting your needs?! LOL

I also told him I bought the 5 love language book which helps better understand different ways people respond to love and asked him if he would read it. He rolled his eyes and I said you don't have to, just say you don't want to but he said no I'll read it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now we'll see if he follows through, that has been a very weak point for him. Hopefully he'll read it.

Good for you MVG!!!

Us guys are pretty simple... give us a little praise and we'll fight all sorts of dragons for you!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

I hope so RIF. I need a protector, sometimes from myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had to chuckle a bit at this statement, RIF.....and I thought of a gaslighting addition to your thought due to my WH's inclination to have an A when I was making huge efforts to praise him and support him when he had lost his job last year. And I was praising him and supporting him while he continued secret contact with that OW....and she with him. He fought dragons, all right. He fought honesty, integrity, transparancy....those kinds of 'dragons'. It happened during his 'withdrawal' phase, which neither of us knew about.



I know what you mean, mvg. Have you thought about reading the book WITH him....little by little.....taking turns reading and discussing in a 'safe' non-threatening manner? We have been reading nearly every evening for the past 18 months since D-Day #1. Ironically, we started with "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass......while WH was still trying to be friends with that OW further underground. I knew it in my gut, but tried to repress my intuition. Wish I'd known about MB principles back then. Shoulda, woulda, coulda....needs to be refocused to the future now.

I was looking for your clarification to my question, mvg and now I realize that I asked you on the Enabling thread. When you can, (if you haven't already)...maybe you could dig it out.....didn't see it on page one.

Thanks,
Ace

Ace I posted a response on the enabler thread but here it is too.

Ace, I'm not sure about the typo thing...the book is called "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. Chapman believes there are 5 'languages' of love such as, words of affirmation, quality time,receiving gifts,acts of service, physical touch. VERY much like MB but gives some specific examples and how to recognize. So far I'm only a little ways into the book, I like it. I can't wait to get to the part of discovering your personal love language. He says each of us has a primary 'language' and we 'fill our love tanks' when our language is used by our spouse and others. Like EN's.

Since my H hasn't used my ENQ I'm hoping this might be easier for him to understand. He's making so much effort and I SEE these changes but it's not exactly what I need.I feel ashamed to even say that, but it's true. I need 'words' and 'actions', not just actions. I'm also hoping this will help me understand him better.

I finished the book. It was very good. Very much like EN's but gives examples.

Now I'll see if H honors his word and reads it.

Saw your post and thanks for re-sharing it here.

Glad you liked the book. Is it something you might be able to read with him.....together....out loud.....a little at a time? I may have already mentioned this but it's something that has helped my DH and me.

We're reading Fall in Love, Stay in Love now. It's slow, but good for both of us. And we are able to discuss things now without LB's like we started out doing.

Ace

I don't think he would be receptive to reading together, especially out loud. It would be a nice intimate time though. I'll ask him.

That sounds like an interesting book also. I see my book collection growing leaps and bounds by all the suggestions throughout various threads.

I did just order Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend as I still need to define better. I do feel like I'm making progress however I'm sure it will take time and possibly slips here and there. There's alot to unlearn!

I haven't heard from LA in some time....I don't know if she gave up OR it's a sign I'm going down the right path.

Oh by the way, after reading the 5 Love Languages, alot of what LA was trying to explain to me REALLY hit home. An Ah-ha moment.

I can admit, today right at this moment I'm happy. I'm happy with our progress. I'm not dwelling on the 'still in the works' stuff, I am enjoying the moment today.

Thank you ALL for that. I don't think I would've been able to do that alone.

Just caught up on your thread. I am glad that you are feeling happy with your progress right now. LA has shown me that we are making more progress than I thought we were. But also that I still have much to work on. I am at the same place you are emotionally. I want so much to trust the changes I see in my H, but I just can't. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Very scary time.

I am going to try to find the Love Lamguages book since you thought it was so helpful. My H doesn't like to read either. It is a hang up in our recovery process for me. I am trying to find ways around it.

I have also been missing LA's comments. I hope she comes back soon. I feel that I have so much more to learn from her and lots of questions about how to apply what she has shared so far.

Where am I?

Hey, I can get lost, too, ya know. You are all on the right path...and I only post when something resonates in me...like, uh, shame.

:}

Mvg...so, fork it over now...what did you find out where your love languages? You got more than one...is your primary words of affirmation? Secondary acts of service?

What's your DH's languages? What did you feel when you read the book?

Yes, there is a 300-page book report involved, apparently.

Learning to share what hurts and what thrills...what hits and misses...what is and what isn't...without judging how it's going to be received by others...is what I think MB is awesome for...so we will do the same with our spouses. Living in highest honesty and high awareness. May be the source of your happy feeling...in it together.

My DH likes to be read to...reminds him of something from childhood he can't remember...and he doesn't see it as motherly. We switch out chapters...and only do one chapter at a time. Don't assume what your H's stuff...ask and let the outcome go...share anyway...ESPECIALLY how you're feeling happy when you focus on your own power, growth, healing...focusing on abundance, not lack.

Now that I'm remembering...DH did fall asleep a couple of times when I read aloud.

LOL

{{{{{Acey}}}}}}}--looking forward to reading your vacation recap if I can find the right thread...

GC,

I may have missed your thread going by...bumping it helps me to catch a response...and I do feel embarrassed when I miss questions. When I first posted on MB, I believed I was a thread-killer...until I chose to stop thinking that way. Your bump is as important as my seeking you out...and between work and home computers having their bookmarks wiped out recently, I've been rebelling against reality and not doing a search when I darn well know I can.

You can choose to trust each act he does today...he did it. You can choose to focus on your acts today...and share. And share also what you didn't do (like LBs).

You've lived fearfully before...probably several times...not in control of what parents, siblings, others do...how it will affect you, change the course of your life. You are alive today, anyway. Feeling scared isn't a life-ender...and it sure can feel that way! The more you choose to act from love, the more you'll see and let in his love deposits.

If you're not feeling it coming in...check to see if you're discounting (fear is a prime motivator behind discounting) something...and know if you are, you're discounting yourself, too.

That's all I got...ask any questions...signal me...because so many here on MB can answer them...Star*fish, Ears_Open, HappyToBeHere, Acey, Mvg...ack, the list is too long. When we learn together, we all learn, correct?

I'll look up your thread, GC, and see what I've missed, 'k?

LA

Where am I?

Hey, I can get lost, too, ya know. You are all on the right path...and I only post when something resonates in me...like, uh, shame.

I just missed ya!

Mvg...so, fork it over now...what did you find out where your love languages? You got more than one...is your primary words of affirmation? Secondary acts of service?

What's your DH's languages? What did you feel when you read the book?

After reading the book and taking the profile my primary language is 'words of affirmation' and secondary 'physical touch'. There were several questions that I really wanted to pick both. They way it worked out for me: 1-words of affirmation, 2-physical touch, 3-Acts of Service, 4-Quality Time, 5- Receiving Gifts (with only 1 point).

I felt the book really explained via examples more of exactly what you have been telling me LA. Everything with the book and MB seemed to start fit together and I understood. (I hope).

I have no idea what my H's language is. I haven't even looked at the male questions. He responded positively when I said I'm through with the book if you would like to read it now. Asked him where he'd like me to put if for him. He told me, and said I don't think I'll read it tonight. Thats ok. NOW I'll see if he follows through. That has been his WEAKEST link, follow through. However, he has been doing MUCH better with that lately so I'm very hopeful. But if he doesn't, he doesn't. I'm just not sure how I should respond if he doesn't. Do I keep plugging away or accept he's only going to do what he wants when he wants to? I'm not sure. Right now I'm going with the feeling he will read it. If he doesn't I'll cross that bridge then.

LA, you're right I do feel we are in this together right now. I hope we stay in it together.

It's funny to see you write this and then have LA re-emerge to validate it. I knew that would happen. LA is ALWAYS reading, even if she is not posting. One time, Chrysalis and I were 'baiting' her on a off topic thread, and by golly she showed up within a day or two to defend herself and chastise us both in love like only LA can do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA, you've changed my life so much that I am not even aware of all the ways yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Like mvg, when I learn things from other sources, something I heard from you suddenly slides over in the "Learned from LA first" category. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On this special day of thankfulness, I want to say THANK YOU to both you, LA and mvg. In watching you, mvg learn and grow, I see myself doing the same.....and also it helps me see that there is hope for all of us in spite of the dips and drops in this recovery rollercoaster of life.

Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy your family time.

Acey

On this special day of thankfulness, I want to say THANK YOU to both you, LA and mvg. In watching you, mvg learn and grow, I see myself doing the same.....and also it helps me see that there is hope for all of us in spite of the dips and drops in this recovery rollercoaster of life.
Oh so true Ace! I've learned so much from so many people here! With a truly grateful heart I say Thank you to you all. I didn't think a month ago I would be where 'we' are now. I couldn't imagine the love I'm receiving from so many different people and places, especially from my H. The love I'm receiving is because of so many MBers showing me where it could come from', recognizing it, enjoying it. I feel so very close to so many here. Unfortunate that we found ourselves in places we never expected to be, but maybe that a very gentle reminder that everything is done for good with God's help.

Happy Thanksgiving friends, from a very grateful me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Time flies, doesn't is mvg. So glad things are going so well. I posted a new thought/subtitle on the Enabling thread. A new "YIKES" came our way last night. I realized that I am a major controller. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Check it out when you can.

If anyone else can help, please do so on the Enabling thread.

Thanks,
Ace

I did Ace.

I'm starting to get a bit anxious about H reading the 5 love language book...I really need to stop that. Geezz it's only been a couple days and T'giving thrown in too. I'm such a get right on it person and he's so much more I'll get to it one day, UGH!

How funny....my FWH is becoming a "get right on it" person and I'm nervous that he's stuffing too much of his "I'll do it someday" thoughts and might blow up one day.

UGH, UGH!!!

Ace

Ace that would concern me too. Have the 2 of you talked about that specifically? Could it be he really has changed and is NOT stuffing but if feels like it to you because it's different?

Hey MVG!

Wow!!! You're up early for a Sunday morning!!!

I posted on Acey's other thread... For me, I knew it was time to "let go" when Mrs. RIF started feeling comfortable enough with me to "let me have it" when I started trying to control her for her "past sins"...

At some point, the BS must let go of the past and start to trust their spouse again if they ever want to truly start rebuilding...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Mvg,

My DH hasn't read 5LOL. He knows what they are, though, because I shared my journey through that book.

Our MC asked him in session and he didn't read the book.

It's not against us...it's not FOR themselves.

Amazingly, my DH has your order of love languages. How 'bout that? And yes, mine are rather reversed...1) Gifts...2) quality time 3) words of affirmation 4) physical touch 5) acts of service.

I noticed something, btw, about myself in this ordering...I cheat. I do. See, I see gift of time, presence, touch, words, deeds...as all gifts. I think I scrunch them all into number one.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I see posting here on MB the same way...reading posts is like gifts to me, because they took time and thought space, brought presence, the process as an act of service, and definitely words of affirmation. Lots of those on this thread.

You say you don't know your DH's love language...not even a clue? Did you share your excitement in reading the book, talk about it, share what you saw were your children's love language, even your grandchildren?

And yes, I said to him, "I'm not conveying all this book really has...it's going through me to you. You might have a different experience with it."

Acknowledged my filter...shared anyway.

The more I held my fear and spoke anyway...the less I feared what my DH would or wouldn't say or do...what promises he would keep or not. I stopped cutting off my own receiving abundance through him...and what he did or didn't do.

Acey--thank you for opening your influence door to me...for feeling put down and knocked around and grasping the love it was coming from...along with my great esteem and respect for you. You did that. You allowed me into your life, in a very vulnerable and fearful time. Thank yourself, too, for your bravery, playing it by ear, and seeing your own way clear.

Because you did. I believe in doing so, you saw how much your choices matter. Now you're staying aware of your choices...where you're dwelling, what you're treasuring, and how you bring your light to MB and everywhere you are...

LA

LA, I have talked about the book, raved on as a way to understand each other better.

At this point I truly don't know what H's language is. I wonder if it's acts of service because that's what he is doing for me, which he hadn't in the past, he is 'trying' to spend time with me, not exactly to MB standards (he thinks just sitting next to me and watching tv is spending time..which it is), but not intimate, non-divided time. So I see his efforts. I do enjoy his acts of service and his sitting with me. I need more indepth intimacy too. I need more knowing his heart. I have shared with him my desires. I'm not sure if he's not ready for that or just won't. Maybe time will tell.

LA I have to admit I do cheat a bit too. I use this forum as words of affirmation...in additon to learning.

RIF I think you are right too, there has to come a time the BS has to trust again. I want to but I'm hesitant at this moment, I think it's a bit early. BUt I'm at least hopeful because I do want to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I need more indepth intimacy too

So why not be more intimate? What is your definition of intimacy? Mine has always been sharing what's on your mind, opening up, exposing that underbelly.

Regardless of our sitch, PWC has done this more in the past week than in the past six months. Part of the reason for this was *I* turned the TV off, and talked to him. I talked of my desires, owned my shortcomings and asked for what I needed. Now, in my case, these needs, for the most part, go unmet, but I feel better, more healed, for asking for them.

Things certainly have not gotten worse. In fact, I feel more OPENED UP, less afraid, because *I* shared, *I* was intimate. I finally understand that I was part of the problem in keeping us rutted. I even found myself being very honest in the moment. When PWC brought up a sore subject, I let him know how it made me feel, right on the spot, calmly.

I read books, and tend to throw out nuggets about them during conversation. I haven't asked PWC to read them. They're out in the open. He's welcome to read them (I have said so) but I leave it there.

Think of something that you want to discuss, and turn the TV off, even if only for 10 minutes, it's a start.

SL I've turned the TV off. And yes do feel a little better about sharing my stuff. I still so badly want him to share his. He doesn't. I have NO idea what's going on in his mind. I've asked, I get either no response, or nothing. It makes me feel shut out. He might not mean it that way, but that's how I feel. I've shared this with him still nothing. One of my most important EN's is conversation/words of affirmation. I don't know if the 'changes' (acts of service, doing things for me) in him are truly his recognition of needed changes, or just a way to appease me. I appreciate his changes and have told him so and that it makes me happy.

Right now I don't feel I KNOW the person I live with.

Oh, WOW! Same Same mvg. I know what you are saying, all too well.

Gosh, I have no words of wisdom, just to say that you have to remember to take care of YOURSELF. Do things for YOURSELF.

One of my top EN's is the same, mvg. I am also faced with the same response (what seems like resistance, from my perspective).

I also don't feel like I know the person I live with; you know why? Because I don't. That's up to him. He has to show those things to me. I will continue to be genuine, and show who I am. I will continue to make changes, because *I* feel better, stronger, happier.

That's it SL...they don't share all of themselves. I do have to give my H a kudos, he is TRYING very hard and making huge strides forward, it's just that something is missing...MY MOST IMPORTANT EN. UGH...I try to keep reminding myself he is moving forward, and maybe in time he'll open his heart and desires to me.

I think I'm making changes, inwardly, how I try to not enable, not control, not to assume, not to pressure. If I mess up I do recognize it much quicker and make amends.

I still want to KNOW my H though, his thoughts, desires, dreams. Maybe the miracle of Christmas will help <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope and pray.

I shouldn't complain, he is doing well...but now that I've seen the gold at the end of the rainbow so to say, I WANT it. I want all of my H. I want a love so deep you can't measure the depth. Unrealistic? I don't know.

I don't think it's unrealistic, mvg, but I do know it will take tons of patience. It may go faster if you continue to focus on what you can change in yourself, venting your frustrations here, affirming his progress steadily and positively.

Keep it up. Don't lose sight of that nugget, but also, don't let your expectations derail you prematurely.

I'm speaking to myself, too. As I focus on trying to NOT be a controller, my DH is trying extra hard to do the things he knows are the right thing to do, not only because I've harped about them for years, but because they are more expedient (and he used to NOT do them for years just to spite me.) One example is the sitch I posted on the Enabling thread last night.

Ace

If you really place focus on yourself; care for yourself; begin to exude confidence, things change.

Confidence can be really hard to come by when things seem so shaky, so many unknowns. The one thing you CAN do is look at yourself, your insecurities. Get to know who you are, and work toward being stronger.

I just shudder when I read some of your posts because I see so many similarities. It's mind boggling!

All of this time, I've been looking for PWC to GIVE me what I need. That RENTER in me, looking for sacrifice. He's been giving me what he feels comfortable with, what he wants to; of course, not my most important EN's, but needs all the same.

I don't think I'll get my top EN's met until I am willing to put myself out there, to speak honestly, and not be afraid of what PWC will DO (or not do).

It's funny, it's not like there is some great catastrophy every day, that we must discuss. There are MOMENTS, things said in passing. I used to just let those things go, and let them pile up. I don't do that anymore. I handle it in the moment, for if I don't, more shirts heads will roll. I fear for my husband's wardrobe! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Ace & SL. Your words of wisdom I do covet. And thanks for seeing some of my posts are just frustration and confusion.

I see after posting this MY trial right now is NOT expecting SANTA to bring my biggest desire but to revel in what I am getting and enjoying the moment.

Since I stopped taking that dang medicine I have actually woken up the last couple of mornings and felt....HAPPY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some medications can kill your spirit (especially pain meds).

I see after posting this MY trial right now is NOT expecting SANTA to bring my biggest desire but to revel in what I am getting and enjoying the moment.

Good call! I removed a lot of my expectations for the holidays. It just ends up ruining the good that comes out of them. I really enjoyed Thanksgiving, having my family together, it was nice. I look forward to Christmas. I have a 5 year old, so it's very mystical right now; he becomes more excited as each day passes. What a joy to watch!

I also just enjoy the season; putting up the tree, decorating, baking (those heart healthy snickerdoodles), shopping, parties. It's fun.

mvg -

Your post is exactly my problem. I want it all and I want it all now. I am overlooking the steps forward he is taking because I see it as not enough. I am hindering my own recovery with my impatience.

Which is what LA is trying to tell me. I told myself last night, after the 2x4's she gave me, that I would start taking our recovery a minute at a time. Just deal with the good and bad of that moment. I look ahead too much and miss all the scenery on the way there.

Like yours, my H is changing. He used to do things to irritate me on purpose and he has stopped. He is more affectionate and more verbal about his love for me. He IS doing what I have asked him to do. He is just doing it in his own way...not mine.

I am definitaly going to read that 5 love languages book because I think that I am missing some of the ways he shows his love to me....because we don't speak the same language. I am going to get it from the library today and read read read.

mvg,

I just wanted to stop by a minute to let you know how much i appreciate reading your thread and SIL's. They both sound EXACTLY like me and my situation and it just gives me such joy to read here how to change myself. I have been trying to do just that and it is working slowly but surely. I have noticed my H has been coming around more too just by me speaking up right then and there rather than letting it build up. Just thought i would let you know.

S_C

CG and MVG,

In your mind take a snapshot of now...

Compare it to where things were "before"...

Use it as a reference for a month from now...

And again in another month...

When we are trying to lose weight, there a re a couple of ways to go about it.

One way is to starve ourselves, exercise instead of having a real life and lose a lot of weight quickly. It seldom lasts because we burn out and find a "reason" to cheat on the diet or to take the day off from the gym.

The other way is to make changes in the way we think about ourselves. We can change how we think about food. We can commit to getting ourselves into better shape and exercise when we feel the motivation.

The first way usually leads to falling off the wagon and regaining at least some of the weight and remaining lazy, wanting a shortcut to being physically fit and looking better.

The second is more likely to lead to life long changes that will give us a better understanding of why we eat the way we do, how to short circuit our cravings and remaining in better shape over the long haul. Even if we never get down to the same weight as we could get to by starving and giving up on life, we can be BETTER than we were before and remain that way into the future.

Recovery works the same way. Slow, steady progress leads to more lasting changes than sudden all out efforts to attain a short term goal. Where we are in a year is more important than where we are in a week. It is better for both marriage partners to learn the new habits and ways of dealing with problems, conflicts and stress than to force changes in actions without understanding why the changes need to happen.

When the frustration of where we are comes along it is often because we are longing for where we were, but we need instead to focus on where we are going because that is where we need to be in the future.

An entire generation of the people of Israel, the same generation who witnessed miracles in being freed from slavery in Egypt, missed seeing the promised land because they were dwelling on what they didn't have any more instead of what they were going to get. They longed for the leaks and onions, the fish, the spices and completely missed the miracle of the manna that arrived every morning and didn't even have to be carried with them on their journey.

They missed the blessing of now and tomorrow because they couldn't give up what they had yesterday though it was not all that good because they were in fact slaves rather than free.

Better to be free to recover than remain slaves to old ways of selfishness.

[/sermon]

You both know this already, of course. Just reminding myself... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Mark

Thank you all. I do hope we are able to learn from each other and to enjoy the moment. We are more fortunate than some and not as fortunate as others, but we are fortunate as long as we continue to count our blessings and not let the 'small' things go unnoticed.

They missed the blessing of now and tomorrow because they couldn't give up what they had yesterday though it was not all that good because they were in fact slaves rather than free.
Mark, thank you, I have to keep reminding myself of this too.

I keep thinking of Acey's poem. We are headed into a better place I truly feel that in my heart.

GC, just watch and listen to your H...pay close attention to all he does. You WILL notice so much that is good. I keep my list of good things...and they are many. Maybe not the way I'd like them but good none-the-less and I have to remind myself of that.

Thank you all friends I can't/couldn't have done this without you all. (((With much gratefulness))).
Let's hope we can continue to hold each other up through the tough times, and smile and be joyous at the good, with hopefulness in our hearts for the wonders to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We are 3+ years into recovery and we're still working through stuff (even after 30 years of marriage!). It dawned on me the other day (and I know this is going to be a big duh! to most people) but I realized that DH isn't meeting one of my biggest EN-- affirmation of my desirability as a woman (other than times when we're intimate). So how do you go about conveying that kind of need to someone? Here's what I did.

I approached DH and said, you know, I'm a married woman. There is only one source that I can go to in order to get my need for affirmation as a desirable woman. Before, when we were doing things all wrong, neither of us thought anything about getting a compliment from the opposite sex affirming our desirability. We now know that's dangerous. So you're it baby. My DH said, "I understand, but don't you see all the other things I do?" I do and I told him so. I just let him know that this was a biggie for me. I then went on my way and he went his.

Two weeks later (last night) I came home and went to the fridge. There was a post-it note to me from DH with a really sweet note (affirming me as a woman.) Then I found one on my computer, inside my pantry door, on the bathroom mirrors -- upstairs and downstairs, inside the kitchen cabinets. I was laughing. He got it.

My point is... that in recovery... sometimes the best way to get what you need is to ask straight up.

PM, WOW you are a lucky woman!!! I have asked straight to the point, very specifically...nada. That is one of the reasons I want him to read the 5 love languages book. BUT maybe your approach will work as well.

As I've said earlier, I do feel my heart thawing and IF he would/could meet my most important EN I think I could start believing in him again.

Even before his EA (which he poured all MY EN's on the OW) he didn't/wouldn't/denied me...my most important EN's again with me being VERY direct and VERY specific.

So I think that's why I'm so hesitate to 'believe' in him, even with his changes. I'm confused by this behavior, he has 'heard' my requests so many times but doesn't do them.

Before the EA he said he just wasn't an 'emotional' kinda guy...but he was with HER. He gave HER what I so much desired. This holds me back. That is my 'trial' these days, how to get thru the trial and come to some conclusion as to why he could give to another but not to me.

Should I give the direct approach another try?

I hear that. For years I heard that from my H. I never expected a whole lot of "romance" from him because he just wasn't that kind of guy. I was floored when I found love letters that he'd written to BOTH OW. Once he came home, that one thing bothered me the most. I told him this. His answer was that it wasn't him, he wasn't living in reality. But still... it was a source of major resentment for me.

We went for nearly two years with me feeling this, me telling him, him not doing anything about it, me trying to get past it.

He was "hearing" me the whole time but wasn't at a point in his own recovery where he could meet that need for me. I was "demanding" something from him (as opposed to stating what I felt and walking away with no expectation) and he couldn't deliver. I finally had accepted that it wasn't going to happen because I just wasn't as good, as sexy, as beautiful, as whatever... as they were?). My thinking was stinkin' thinkin'. "I" was making myself crazy with it.

Finally, one day after I quit asking and when I least expected it, I got my letter.

Sooooooo. In the instance where I simply told him that he wasn't meeting my EN, he listened and acted. In the instance where I "demanded", he also listened but wasn't really free to act honestly. Oh he could have written "something" but it wouldn't have been from a place of honesty.

But again, remember that most of my situation was pre-MB. I've learned SO MUCH since coming here.

Thank PM. I haven't demanded since before DDay. I do want to just state my feelings and have no expectations. That is hard BECAUSE I do want results. UGH!

I can do it though. I can state what I feel/need/etc and pray for results while realizing they might not come,now or ever. I do want him be able to act honestly. Tight spot.

More thinking needed.

Try to remember that these things are not static. Just because something is not addressed today, does not mean, after some time and intimacy building, these things (EN's being met) won't be met with enthusiasm at a later date.

Just keep to honesty. You stated what your top EN's are, now stick to your side of things, filling his EN's as you know and can, remembering to take care of yourself.

What SL said but in a much clearer and succinct way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks!

Maybe I'll just take my mind off such heavy subjects and think about snickerdoodles! LOL

A little snickerdoodle goes a long way, mvg.

Seriously, take your time finding your way. Don't try to have it all today. It's an evolution.

I either had a swift kick to my chakras or a brain realignment, but whatever it was, I am really so much more clear on this. That doesn't mean that I don't have a longing for physical affection, but I'm not going to push. I know it will happen again, as long as we keep on keepin on. I have faith now, that I never had before.

I also have faith that I can weather this all. I'm not afraid for myself. I am afraid for PWC and my son, if things don't work out, but I can handle whatever comes my way.

I look forward to watching our dynamic change. I feel so much better.

You will get there too! Hopefully, no shirts or household items will be harmed in order for you to get there, but who knows?...

SL I'm glad you have found 'whatever' it is that realigned your brain with your faith and certainity.

I truly am trying to be patient..not one of my virtues. I'm trying to let things just evolve. I AM enjoying what we have today. I have not uttered one word to H about what I'm feeling right now. Can I hope it's PMS and this 'uncertainity' shall pass with it????

It sure is hard to look into your H's eyes tho, when you 'think' they love you, and you're searching and searching their eyes and you still come away unsure. Da*n fear! This too I shall overcome!!! CAuse I'm just too darn stubborn not to! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My FWH looks away when we make eye contact. It's like he's staring into the sun and can't bear it one second more. I look him in the eye all of the time. I, personally, think it's ridiculous to NOT work on things in an OBVIOUS way; fix the problems, face them, deal with the anger and fear together and get past it. BUT, that's ME, not my FWH.

He has his own way of doing things, and I'm no teacher. This is our situation and I'm FINALLY coming to terms with what I'm really dealing with, and not HOPING for something unreal. THAT'S how I've gotten to where I am.

When I talk about him not looking at me or touching me, those are HIS issues, NOT MINE. I plan on having a happy life with him. I am following the Harley principles as best I can, in this situation. I am also doing more for myself, not sitting around waiting for PWC to come around.

I invited him to the movies this Saturday, letting him know that my best friend offered to watch our son. He can do whatever he wishes to do with that time; I would like to spend it with him, MY CHOICE. Sunday, I have told PWC, that I am going to THE MALL to look for something snazzy for my Christmas party. He's welcome to come, HIS CHOICE.

I am living my life, day in, day out, as I would like, which, for me, includes my husband. His choice on how to live his.

^5 SL!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Very wise advice...true for me also. I am a little miffed right now. I had a wonderful response to all that LA said on my thread and when I went to post it..my computer froze and I lost it all. I am boycotting my thread for a little bit today to teach it a lesson...lol....Just wanted you to know I read what you said and thanks.

I wasn't jumping all over you...just sounded like I hit a nerve with you.

I also wanted to let you know that I have stopped asking my H for affection for a few days now and last night he made some major love bank deposits.

My back was hurting still and he let me lay down for awhile. He ran our oldest to play practice, fed the other two, and pretty much took complete care of them. Then after they finally went to bed he was all cuddly and stuff. It was very nice. Just another proof that LA is right.

Keep at it mvg - your H will come around. Still praying for you both.

Thanks GC! I posted on your thread before reading here...I can understand the boycott..teach that thread a lesson!

P.S. No nerve hit, my back was bothering me so maybe I just sounded harsh, that's one problem with internet easy to misinterpret.

My H has made great strides, I am proud of him. I just have to learn patience for him to go the journey.

I did what was suggested I NOT to last night. I had a little heart to heart with H. Things were going along so well, I was sharing, he was getting it AND not feeling put upon or blamed...just perfect, THEN I asked him a question, he didn't answer, a few minutes later he says well I don't know the answer what is it so I tell him and *GULP* He raised his voice (which he doesn't do unless angry) and informed me how much this hurt HIM. Tears flowed, HURT HIM?! Told him was KILLING ME! LBing all over....he calmed down very quickly, I took a deep breath and calmed down.

We finished (my perspective) an emotional talk with only each of us LBing 1 time apiece (and both recognizing it almost immediately).

I shared with him MY blessings, thoughts, feelings, and fear. I shared with him WHY I post here and how much it has helped me. I shared with him WHY I'd like for him to read the HNHN and the 5 love languages book..for ME to learn about him.

And I told him all I want for Christmas...Your Heart.

He seemed to really take it in, process the thoughts and ideas. And best of all he didn't feel blamed, or anything bad. It was a good night.

MVG,,I didn't read your WHOLE post, its a long one,LOL, I read a bunch though.

you broke my heart in this last post with "all you want for Christmas is his heart" wow.

Do you think that H is being the "victim" wanting you to fall all over him? The more you want him to do something FOR YOU the more he is the victim? he wants you to beg?

I do know that my H likes to shoot himself in the foot all the blasted time,,,the more he wants something to work out the worse it gets,,do you know what I mean?

I so get where your coming from,,this is how I feel,,,if you want it you have to work for it,,why should I beg you to do something like this for our marriage? especially when you are telling him what to do! It dosen't get any easier then that!

My eyes are still full of tears about your wish.

mvg,

I think talking to your H about what's going on in your head is a good thing; it's when the LB'ing, DJ's, etc., comes in that it's a problem. It's something I work on, and probably always will.

WOW....you are one bold superwoman! Way to deliver your message, in spite of the previous LBs. I'm gonna learn from you. My H got defensive last night. I didn't do what you did. Maybe today.....I'll post it on Smiles & Trials.

You go, girl!

Ace

P.S. You know you're making a major impact when you make DF cry reading about it!!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

DF, I'm not sure about the 'victim' idea. I do think he gets some type of satisfaction out of my attention. MAYBE that's one of his love languages?!

I can't even begin to tell you all how freeing it was to have that conversation. I think he got it. Now we'll see if it sticks. So far when we've had calm sharing conversations they have made an impression.

I feel good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Whooooooo....Hoooooo....smile away, mvg. Thanks for sharing.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
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Ace

Acey,,your right! I don't cry for no reason,,,I am a toughy,,shhhh the counselor is working on that

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> yeah MVG!

DF I wasn't at cryer before. Use to be if I cried someone was going to get a beatin! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have since become a crier myself. Amazing all that these situations affect. But they say tears are cleansing (sp?), so look on the bright side guys...we are all very clean!

LOL, MVG, thats me too.

Growing up in the house I did I would not cry, punch me in the face, hold my hand under scolding hot water, lock me in the cellar, just to name a few, no way was I going to cry, its defiance for me baby, if I cried then they got their way, they beat me, ya know?

I am now working on that, letting the wall(s) down.
I cry now and then, usually for the people on this site, and for myself, I have been feeling so sorry for myself lately, I will snap out of it. right?

LOL GC, yes we are, no soap for me either

I know this is entirely irrelevant, but the title "Help with Procrastinating WH" caught my eye.

One of my kids has a T-Shirt that says --

Procrastinators: Leaders of Tomorrow

I'm not even going to read any of this thread. I'm just gonna tuck my tail between my legs and run, real fast!

Hey DF, what's up with you? Why are you feeling sorry for yourself?

Sweetsobriquet, chicken! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sweet,,,that is an awesome T-shirt LOL,,,I love it

MVG,,,I think I finally feel bad for myself,,,I never allowed myself to discuss my feelings,,,any sadness,,,any anything,,,I always just swept it under the rug until last year it came up out of the gates of ****** and now everyone in my path is paying,,,(that I feel wronged me of course and maybe the people that are driving slow in the fast lane) I just feel so unsettled,,,no matter what happened to me I always thought there was someone worse off and had no right to whine,,,now all I do is whine about me,,,,I have to get over this hump and stop it. I am not laying around,,,still busy,,,not sure what its all about really.

Howdy, mvg!

Sounds like you are doing well. In terms of crying, I wasn't a HUGE cryer before, but since the As, I get teary a lot. I empathize much more than ever before.

Doingfine, do you feel angry? It sounds like you never allowed yourself to become angry and then let it go. Regardless of how many blessings a person has, it would still be necessary to mourn your losses, even if just to let it out.

I certainly KNOW that I am blessed in many ways, but I have a lot of anger to work thru over the mess that had been created. I sometimes feel like my FWH has it easier (I know that NOT to be true, but it can SEEM that way). All he had to do was come home, and now he can get back to his routine, his former life has been picked up again and he's running with it.

It occurs to me that he has his own set of issues to deal with due to his decisions, but WHILE he was out yucking it up with the ladies and his friends, during his A's, I was home trying to deal with the LOSS, not to mention my sons loss, and how it affected him; trying to help him work through his own anger (and he had lots) and sadness (lots, lots).

I could be waaaaay off on this one, but I didn't deal with my own anger at all, during that time (Plan B, separation). Now, it is something I have to make a concerted effort to deal with and to keep from brimming up, as it has recently.

I dunno?

HI SL & DF doing pretty well here. *knocking on wood*

Df not a fun place to be. Do you feel better in making those people pay or do you need to vent?

AND why can't you mourn/whine/whatever for how YOU feel??? Doesn't matter if someone is in worse shape, you are worth having your feelings and expressing them. Sometimes you need to 'clear the air' JUST for YOU. You might feel better if you do it in the right setting.

Being a emotionally strong person isn't what it's cracked up to be. Oh my! I didn't mean to but THAT is funny with this....cause you'll end up in a rubber room. At least that's how I felt DF, on the edge of going 'postal' or total destruction of myself.

My anger was always directed at PWC, which I stuffed. Other people didn't bother me, except for the occassional slow driver in the left lane, but that's to be expected.

I only lost my cool with the shirt and PWC; oh, and his cordless mouse, when I found out he was still cheating while living at home during the first A, oh, and many a-insect, oh, and my punching bag, pillow, mattress...goodness. I could go on.

At least you're letting it out SL and especially on inanimate objects. I'm considering a punching bag myself.

Where's my grateful heart? I think I've lost it, anyone here seen it?

After my WH's & my conversation the other day I was feeling so good. On top of the mountain. It's a long ways down.

I'm not sure I've learned anything here. My head must be very thick. I do have expectations. I can say I don't or won't but I do. If I didn't I wouldn't have gotten married. I do expect my H to do his part (ok get the 2x4's ready) and I expect his caring, concern, and pleasing of each other. I do realize it's his choice to do or not to do. I'm just getting real tired of lip service. I'm tired of being as O&H as I can be WITHOUT blaming him and not getting the same in return. I'm tired of him saying yes he'll do something (whatever I've requested) to help our M and then nothing. I'm especially tired of it when I've asked whether it's something he wants to do or not. If not that's ok, just be honest. I'm tired of ME being the one who has to put things in motion. I'm tired of getting what he wants to give and nothing more. I'm tired of feeling responsible for this mess. I DIDN"T DO THIS why do I feel like I have to fix it? Why do I even care anymore? Why do I want him so badly to love me? Not only love me but be in love with me? And can I be in love with him again?

One of my most important EN's is words of affirmation. Geezzz feel like loser even admitting this...I crave my H to tell me I look nice, call me a sweet nickname, say I'm pretty to him, he likes this or that about me. He KNOWS this many times very specifically he's been told. NOTHING from him. I've even sunk as low as to fish for compliments......when and that's few and far between they are really off handed compliments. I asked him directly night before last, " I put makeup on today to pretty myself up for you" and he said nothing. I asked him do you not give me compliments because it would be a lie? He thought for a few minutes & said no, but then doesn't know why he doesn't. Same old song and dance.

I just found out by a slip of my WH that he's been 'saving' money secretly, locked away in his gun cabinet (where he thinks I don't have the combination). He's saving money for something he wants to buy-another gun. He seemed pretty pleased with himself that he's saving money without dipping into the regular bill money. I don't quite see it that way. I see it as he's getting more weekly money than he needs to eat lunch, get drinks and is putting a strain on the weekly budget. He apparently has been doing this for awhile, it looked like at least a couple hundred dollars in there. He said he hasn't counted it. What hurts is we have been talking for several months about doing our finances together, saving for such things that each of us 'wanted' and things we needed for the house, etc. I'm hurt. I'm scared, what else is he hiding or doing secretly? I'm pi$$ed too!

Has he progressed as much as I think or is he pulling the wool over my stupid eyes? I'm really confused and getting fed up. Do things ever really change? I'm beginning to think not so much with him, he's only going to do/give what he wants and I'm suppose to settle for that as enough. I don't want to settle anymore, I want more.

Sorry everyone, hopefully this is just a bad day....I've got alot to think about here.

MVG sorry you are having a bad day.

Unfortunately I feel this way most of the time. I know that I need to change some things about myself for the better but I get so upset sometimes thinking that I am doing all the work when he is the one who messed it up.

I know that there were things that I did wrong in our M too, but even so he did things wrong as well and I did not have an affair. This is all just so hard but hopefully it will be worth it in the end. That is what I keep praying for anyway.

Again sorry you are having a bad day and I am sure my post is not helping but try to hang in there.

mvg,

you need to speak to him about the money. You need to be honest with him about the fact that it's not so much the saving as it is the HIDING of the savings. Let him know that it saddens/angers/insert emotion here, when you feel like something is being hidden from you, and it erodes the trust and foundation you are trying to build. This is a time for POJA. If he wants to save money for a weapon, then this needs to be discussed, especially if it's an actual strain on the budget. He could put a little less away at a time, leaving more in the budget for general household needs.

As far as the lack of admiration, I understand where you are coming from.

This is going to probably irk you a bit, so prepare yourself. Maybe your anger and frustration is ALL your FWH is focusing on, and to him, that's not attractive (this is the problem I'd been having, BTW). Also, having a need is fine, it's normal, but being NEEDY can be unattractive also. Focus inward, on you feeling good about yourself. Voice your concerns openly, honestly, without anger, and with a willingness to compromise so that you are both happy.

Continue to fill your FWH's EN's as you know and can. It's when you do something ONLY for something in return that you get into trouble, build anger and work toward withdrawal. Don't forget to DO for yourself. Cook something YOU enjoy, watch something you enjoy, read something for joy, not just to learn; take a long, steamy bath; do your nails, or get them done. Don't forget that you must be happy, and that you are the key to that happiness, not someone else.

Others can enhance your happiness and life, but you are responsible for your own happiness. It's a very hard lesson for me, to realize that I am my own worst enemy. Be open about he things that bother you, or concern you, and let go of the outcome.

SC it's hard isn't it? I hope you can find some way to find your peace.

SL thanks for your post, and no you didn't irk me. I needed someone to point out to me those things. After I posted this I read your thread and had to laugh...seemed you were reading my mind, it was good to read.

I am going to speak to H about the 'saving' money. For some reason I do feel like he thinks he wasn't doing anything wrong. Probably felt like he wasn't using so why not save it. This is sorta good for him because he's not a saver, at least when it comes to household money. So I can see (guessing here) his point. The 'secretly' is the problem and I'll address that soon, VERY soon when I can do it without LBing, DJing or anything like that.

The rest of my rant,EN's, I'll have to deal with inwardly I guess.

SL I don't think I come across as 'needy' at least I hope I don't. I haven't focused (except here maybe) on what he's not doing rather I've been very appreciatative of his positive changes. I have only mentioned my other EN's on occassion (every couple of months). I 'think' I've mentioned a EN then moved on. I haven't harped on it with him. My disappoint has been when it has been mentioned he has agreed to pursue M rebuilding and then doesn't do what he agreed to.

It is also frustrating when I say, can I ask you a question and he says 'here we go again'. He has no idea what I'm going to ask,but says that. I can imagine he thinks it's all about 'it' again. It hasn't been about 'it' in a LONG time. It hasn't been a blame game either. It's been a rebuilding process.

I will try to still be patient. I like him alot better now. But liking someone doesn't necessarily mean I want to be married to them. That doesn't sound very nice I know, I hope maybe as the day progresses I'll like him even more.

Well darn, here I thought this would be a positive post and I don't think that mission was accomplished!

I'm beginning to believe I have terminal PMS....pre-PMS,during PMS, after PMS, ALL the time PMS. I'm just being impatient. Thanks everyone for reading this far into my rant/instability or what ever I have today.

Ah, the verbal equivalent of rolling your eyes. YIKES! Not very nice or anywhere close to MB. I would suggest when he takes this tack that you tell him how that makes you feel and then let him know that you do not want to FORCE a discussion on him. You will ask again at a later time. Then just drop it and walk away. YOu will need to find a place to be alone and deal with your anger when he does this. A heavy bag would REALLY come in handy...

BTW, your conversations may be about the A for some time to come; about the damage done by the A, not necessarily the sexual acts or relationship he had, but the effects on you and your marriage. This is kind of a no brainer. I understand his reaction, but it's just cruel. Believe me, I know, my FWH doesn't roll his eyes NOW, but he has many a time. My approach back then needed some tweaking, but it is still a cruel response.

Now, when I ask to talk, and PWC agrees, he is the one who is shaking and having that fight or flight PHYSICAL response to talking about our issues. I no longer have that; I'm much more relaxed. I don't know what this means, but it seems like progress. I don't think PWC would be shaking if the subject didn't matter to him one bit.



Be patient, but be reasonable with yourself. Don't try to stuff anger that needs to be dealt with between you and your spouse. Sitting and waiting for someone to change can be a lot to ask of yourself. This is where self care and personal recovery come in.

Remember to take time for yourself, mvg. One of my MAJOR problems was that I was solely focusing on the M, on PWC and on progression there, so much so, that I wasn't catering to my TAKER. My Taker needs me to give to it, whether that be a nice hot bath, a nap, quiet time, reading time, crocheting time, whatever. Take a moment or two, here and there to refresh. I think of it like shutting my computer down now and then, just to NOT have to think about things.

Not every moment of your existence needs to be devoted to thinking on your M. It's important to maintain MB principles, of course. It's also important that you are in tip top shape for recovery, both personal and M.

Just take a few moments to cater to yourself; pamper yourself in some way.

BTW, your comment about the perpetual PMS is, in my experience, what all that anger does to your body. Pay attention. Be careful of inanimate objects at this time also, for they may taunt you; you could lose your cool, and take out a perfectly good pair of pants. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Oh SL thank God for you! I had a chuckle with that post! I certainly HOPE it wouldn't be a pair of his prized camo hunting pants...that would be so BAD! hehehehehe

And thank you for validating the cruelity...that is how I feel and I will walk away next time. I will admit I was sorta cruel back to him the last conversation when I asked a question...had to do with giving compliments the whole putting makeup on thing I posted above. What I didn't tell here was my response after I asked him if he felt that would be lying and that's why he didn't give me compliments, he said no that wasn't it (by this time I had had enough especially after the whole here we go again comment WITH eyerolling )"so what the F is wrong with you?!" LOL He got a bit of a surprised look on his face! THEN I walked away.

I do value my alone time, which I'm so fortunate to get every day. And it can be a time of rejuvinating.

Thanks for being here.

mvg, SL, SC....

I hear you and I feel your pain. My DH acted on what your DH's may be feeling:


This was actually part of DH's defense when he got busted....he 'didn't think it was any big deal, that he was doing nothing wrong...'

That slid into justification for creating multiple lies....which continued for 4 days (I only knew on Day 4, thank God). But when he saw how I acted after I knew (but waited for MC to 'spew'...hey that's a line for my poem)....anywhoo.......oooo oooo oooo.

I'll start over.

He lied. He defied. I cried.

Dang it....gotta stop this rhyming stuff.

OK....dddeeeeepppp breath.

After he lied, he said he just felt like he was protecting me from the truth which was nothing to lie about. But he had already lied so he felt he had to protect me more.

He honestly did not think he was doing anything wrong...or so he says.

Although I dont want any of you to have to endure what happened (details on my Smiles/Trials thread), the good part was that after I discovered his lies, I asked him calmly, accepted what he told me, and remained calm the entire weekend and all during MC session and afterwards.

THIS GOT TO HIM IN A BIG WAY. I gritted my teeth and squelched all LB's from erupting for nearly 72 hours....and I did not lurk much or post at all during that time.

It worked! For the first time in our 35 years we've known each other, he called me yesterday and softly and sincerely said, "I just want to tell you how blessed I feel to have you for my wife. I am so thankful you are such a strong and committed person. It's sooooo exciting to think about coming home to see you tonight." (Silence on my part.....I could not believe what I was hearing.) Then last night we continued our discussion about why he lied in a calm, civil manner with no eye-rolling or 'here we go again' attitude.

Dang, I gotta go to work, so I'll post the part about "control" on that thread later....if I can find it!

Hang in there, mvg....and remember, I'm a year ahead of you so don't compare our success with your sitch too much. PATIENCE is the key....it will come.

Ace

MVG - I would be upset about the money also. Not the money itself, but the secret behind it. I also know what you mean about the EN's. However, I am the opposite of you (on this anyway lol)

My H gives me all the words of affirmation I can handle..and then some. It is one of his top emotional needs..but not mine. I don't bring this up because I don't really care he does it and because he never did it before. I don't really care about words..I care about action. My top EN he isn't meeting right now is financial.

For me it is security. To him money isn't a big deal. I crave that security and the fact that he isn't fulfilling his part is killing me. Now, I know he just had surgery and that is why we both agreed he shouldn't get a job till after it was over...but it is still digging at me.

I must also learn to be patient and wait to see what he does about it. It is very hard given our financial situation as you know.

Stay strong and try to be patient. I wish we lived closer to eachother so we could take care of ourselves together. I have a feeling you are a fun date lol. Pedicure sounds really good to me.

All joking aside..they are right. We must learn to make ourselves happy first. We both have a problem with that. Enmeshment I think LA calls it. Hard to unravel isn't it? And remember that neither of us are very far along in this.

Go to my thread and list 5 things that your H has changed that you appreciate and I will do the same. We will just have to focus on that list for now and be grateful for the things listed. Count our blessings instead of our hardships.

Ace thanks for your words of wisedom. They are a comfort.

GC thank you also.

I am thinking about 'how' to address his 'hiding' $ without messing up all the good things he is doing. Sorta feel like being between a rock & hard place.

Any great ideas of how to handle the money situation yet? Just checking in on you.

Hey guys, thanks for the kind words, I agree my anger never really got out. I do get like I want to rip something apart, throw a huge piece of furniture across the room, anything that can destroy something. Then I breath and calm down, and realize that won't help if I break apart furniture. Maybe I can destroy the stuff in the living room, its old, could use new.

I have been better the last few days, until something happens, a tiff between me and the H, then it floods back. I was driving the truck and trailer full of farm animals the other night, he was raising his voice about my driving, I was doing everything he was telling me to do (he drives this kind of stuff way more then me) then he accuses me of never taking his advice what?! what what what? I was! then later when I knew I was calm, I asked him why he said that, hmm,,he doesen't know, what what what? ok! I see I am just made to feel like an idiot and you don't know.

MVG, thats rough, one thing I do have to say is my H always gives me compliments, always, it is nice.
the money thing is hard to take, its not about money, its about hiding and sneaking, this needs to be fixed.
are you in MC? not sure if you said that already sorry.
Dose H get it?

I asked H about the $ hiding. His response..."I wasn't hiding anything, you said if we/I wanted something to save for it, so I was". THIS is NOT what I said, UGH! I said that 'we' needed to go over the finances TOGETHER to find ways to save together for things we both wanted/needed. I don't know if I wasn't clear OR he's not listening fully. I think he's not fully listening.

DF, you know ever since DDay if H raises his voice which he doesn't normally do, I get VERY anxious (very unusal for me). I think because I'm trying so hard not to AO, DJ Or LB it upsets me tremendously. I also find when he does that I want to get away from him....it hurts me and I don't really understand why. It's not what he says but just the raising of his voice.

We had GD here for 2 days/nights so I haven't posted much. We're doing ok here.

Missed ya, mvg, but I've been busy, too.

The raised voice issue you and DF both mentioned. We struggled with that, too. For years, H, then WH, now FWH and DH did not give credence to the value of body language....he only responded to actual words. Do ya know how frustrating that is? It's actually what started the fight while we were on vacation. We pulled the car over and YELLED AT EACH OTHER for about 5 minutes straight!

I got so frustrated, I just started parroting him back my answers to his questions in the same volumne and inflection I could mimic.

It stopped him.....this was only a month ago, exactly a year after D-Day #4 (when I had tried to kick him out and move on alone.) That night in Florida, it finally got to him and the next day he was willing to talk. Then he cried, saying he did not know why he did that.

It's now a boundary issue we are working with MC on. H does not raise his voice now...well, he hasn't in a month, even when I was giving him the 3rd degree cuz I knew he had lied. He did get anxious, but he didn't yell....just talked real fast.

I, too, forget (sorry)....are you guys working with an MC?

Ace

Hi Acey and MVG, yeah, what is it about them (H's) raising their voices or getting frustrated with us that cause's such problems for us? don't know, I dealt with way worse in my life, is it because I am just not taking anymore? I think thats it, we know we don't deserve anything from these men, we aren't taking it, why should we? look what they have done, why should we even take what they say? right? do I sound like I have an attitude and I am trying to get you guys to chime in with me?
right now at this moment H is pouting on the couch because he hung his coat on the banister for the 20th time and wrecked the Christmas decorations that I had there,,,this is how bad it is ok? so now I am thinking about taking EVERYTHING down, the tree, and all the decorations, how bad is that? spiteful huh? I am still thinking. I should of worked the farm today and not worried about anything else.

DF you are going over the top! Just take the bannister decorations down if he's going to hang his coat there. Taking EVERYTHING down is not good it's over reacting. Take a deep breath, several if you need to. Or ask him VERY nicely if he wouldn't do that because it messes the decorations up. NO destroying anything! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ace we are NOT working with MC. Tried one not good so haven't tried any others,we were SUPPOSE to be doing MB together! hahaha I do MB and he does what he THINKS he should...that is our current dilema.

He is making progress but he is not doing MB, he's doing fly by the seat of your pants. I've tried and tried to get him to re-read the MB basic stuff, a couple of books..HNHN and 5 love languages, he always says he will but so far hasn't.

It's very hard to keep suggesting he do reading or whatever, as he is trying so much harder these days. It makes me appear that NOTHING will ever satisfy me in his eyes. And that's not true, I'd just like him to meet my most important EN's and make me a priority in his life.

I should have said in the post above, his raising his voice could be a good thing...he's at least showing some emotion whereas before it was nothing...no response...no reaction.

I'm not quite sure where to go from here. Seems like we're sorta at a stand still. I don't think he 'gets' things still have a ways to go and I don't know HOW to make him realize that.

The last couple of days I've been thinking this is as far as he's willing to go and I either have to accept it or move on. And that's a difficult decision when he is trying. What do to, what to do?!

Sounds like we're a bunch of ladies in the same place (except I think Acey and her FWH are further along). It's been 7 months now since PWC came home. It's just now starting to feel more normal, more relaxed.

Now, what I've learned is that you must speak up if something is bothering you. Regardless of what we THINK the FWH SHOULD do, if you don't say it out loud to them, they have no idea (even if it does seem very inconsiderate). Just because it's not something you would do, does not mean it's something THEY wouldn't do.

I think what bothers me the most is that I've been thru such a living h3ll and finally am making my way out of that abyss, but some of the inconsiderate things, and lack of enthusiasm for meeting my top EN's takes me back to that place of fear. BIG FEARS--of rejection, of helplessness, or FEELING so much. It's easy to go back to that place, if you let yourself.

That's why I say what's on my mind, even if I don't have the perfect words; I try to find them. Sometimes I hit the mark, and we communicate, sometimes I let anger reach into my vocabulary and body language. REgardless, I say what I need to in order to make him aware of things.

I can't say that I do this RIGHT AWAY, but I do it. I'm working on the right away. Sometimes the anger is ALL mine, against a PERCEIVED injustice. I KNOW that it's really just old feelings of anger from the devastation caused by the A's that mingles with the now.

Anyway, I do prattle on, if you let me.

I have so much more floating around in my brain, but I need to post that on my thread, when I have time.

Keep on keepin on ladies!

I hear ya SL! Maybe it's the holiday thing...expectations when we're not suppose to have them. UGH!

I long for the day my WH will take the initative, get over HIS guilt and decide I'm important enough to get his a$$ in gear and try to repair the damage the way I need it repaired. I hope that's just not a pipe dream.

It's crazy when I think about it, how we ALL feel so much the same, to the point that we think and write the same words! It is HIS GUILT. I see it as FEAR and allowing it to keep you rutted, because doing things in the face of fear is tough (but OOOOH so worth it).

It's crazy when I think about it, how we ALL feel so much the same, to the point that we think and write the same words! It is HIS GUILT. I see it as FEAR and allowing it to keep you rutted, because doing things in the face of fear is tough (but OOOOH so worth it).

I often think of your quote in your sig. Fear is a baaaaddd thing if it keeps you stuck in the same place.

I'm not sure how to get WH to address his fear. I am pretty upfront with my feelings, he is more..reserved...no secretative with his. I just can't seem to get through that wall. Suggestions?

I've asked him what can I do to be a better wife to you.(His ENQ didn't give much-everything is fine according to him). He says if I think of anything I'll let you know.

That's why I just feel like we are at a stand still. NOt a BAD stand still but not moving forward.

I would suggest what is continually suggested to me, keep working on you, regardless of his participation.

He has to get his own head together, figure his own way. You can lead, by example, by continuing to be open, by continuing to state what bothers you, and by continuing to find your happiness within.

It's really tough to continue to change and grow, and watch the WS seemingly sit rutted. He's probably not nearly as rutted as you think; he's probably making forward progression, at a snail's pace. It's tuogh when YOU have all of the tools, and oh so want them to use them, but can't make them.

I know that PWC could benefit from many of the books I have read or been reading. He hasn't read them, asked about them, anything. This is his choice. I would never have forced him to read anything before the A's, and I'm not going to start now. I apply what I'm learning to everyday life, and it is infused in what I do, how i carry myself and what I say. When we talk, I talk about how this has changed for me, or that, and talk about my fears, not directly, but in context with the conversation.

It's slow going, but I'm not carrying or pulling him anymore. He's on his own rope. I'm climbing, showing him the footholds, it's up to him. I can't stop fixing me so that I can WAIT for him. He can catch up in his own time.

WONDERFUL explanation! That is how I'm feeling, I'm in the race and he's at the snack counter! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you.

LC or anyone who wants to chime in....

LC you said things do get through to the WS's mind so I'm asking for you thoughts.

When (or do they)does a WS start taking the initative? My H has made alot of positive changes but even tho he agreed to MB he doesn't actively participate in learning more about it or even finishing the Q's. He agrees but unless I do the 'work' of bringing it to him he won't go looking on his own.

Is there normally a point the WS finally looks at their BS and sees they need to do the work too?

Am I/have I made a mistake in being the initator? And just how far do you go with that? At what point do you say ok it's up to you now?

I 'want' him to take the initative and at the same time don't want the positve to change because of frustration on his part that it's never going to be enough. So how do I convey that to him without frustrations with him or me?

I'm confused right now...I don't know what to do or what not to do.

mvg,



It may be very individual, some may never take the initiative. (I know not very reassuring)


I can very much relate to this, my DH is much the same. What I did was learn how to talk to him the right way. I tell him all the time how much I appreciate the work he has done on himself and for the positive changes he has made. I tell him because I am genuinely appreciative and want him to know I notice the changes.


I don't think you have made a mistake by being the initiator, now is the time to tell him what you would like him to do.

Are you the type of person who figures if you want something right you need to do it yourself?

The reason I ask is because I am. For me it was "easier" to just take care of it so it was done right. Now I accept whatever it is my DH does, even if it isn't quite to my standards. I'm referring to relationship stuff and other stuff, too. Take the time to stop and notice if your H is actually doing things, just not they way you would do it and you haven't noticed them.

A long time ago a read a really great book on how to communicate. I use a lot of the techniques in the book and it really has worked for us. It has given me the confidence to openly communicate with my DH. I use to say nothing and expect him to mind read what I wanted/needed and when he couldn't I would be mad at him for not doing what I expected. I stopped trying to make him read my mind.

The name of the book, if you are interested, is 'Communication Miracles for Couples" by Jonathan Robinson. There is some really great suggestion in the book. My DH hasn't read it, I never asked him to, but it would be really helpful if both of you would be willing to read it. My DH and I have talked about the communication ideas in the book which is why I never asked him to actually read it.

I just paged through it a little and think I may read it again as a refresher.

I learned it's not what you say, it's how you say it.


By telling him the right way.

Tell him in a nonconfrontational manner exactly what you said above.

It could go like something like this. "Honey, I really appreciate all the positive changes you have made and I am happy you are working so hard. I want you to know it isn't unnoticed. There is one thing I would I would like to have you do. Do you think it would be possible for you to initiate some things you would like to see happen in our relationship." Or something along those lines.

The short of it is you have to communicate to him what you want, he can't read your mind. The trick it to communicate the right way.

LC

If you feel resentful about initiating, then yes.

It's a common Renter-ism, actually. I used to do it a lot - even with much smaller things.

For instance, I would ask Patriot if he thought I looked pretty. He would say yes. Then I would be upset because I had to ask, so it didn't count.

See what a trap that is? If he says no, he loses. If he says yes, he STILL loses.

There was a much better way to get what I wanted and it required getting to know myself a little better - knowing what I liked, knowing what I didn't like, knowing what I was willing and not willing to do.

And then using a thoughtful request.

"I like it when you tell me I look pretty without my having to ask."

And then on my part, not hurting BOTH of us with my own DJ if he didn't by assuming that meant he didn't think I looked pretty (just an example).

How far you go with that depends on you.

Do you see ways that you might actually be robbing him of the opportunity to take the lead by doing it yourself?

Are you ready to hear and accept his "no" if he doesn't do what you request?

AMEN!!! Mrs. RIF is working very hard on this... Being apart actually helps because we don't get to see each other every day. We have to either say it over the phone or type it out in an e-mail or IM...

I'm going to try and find this book when I'm home for R&R because I know that I sure need to improve MY communications skills...

MVG - I tried to "force" Mrs. RIF to be as enthusiastic about rebuilding as I was... that didn't work. I used the same technique that LC gave you - Reinforce the positive things your H is doing and be specific with what you'd like to see.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks everyone for your input.

LC, I use to be the person to do everything so that it was done. Not that it was done my way just that it was done. I don't do that anymore. So that is good for me and him. I do feel I limited his actions by doing that.

Froz, I hope I'm not robbing him of his opportunity to lead, I'm afraid he won't ever do it. Maybe I"m expecting to much to soon, dd was 7/27/07.

RIF and LC I have been praising him on his accomplishments. How much I appreciate his changes. As forthright as I've been maybe I haven't been as clear as I should be. I will work on that.

Thank you all, good stuff to work with here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

mvg,

I'll let you in on a little secret. PWC is changing bit by bit right before my eyes. I think he's getting it. My honesty with him, over my frustration, without LB's or DJ's, was an absolute good thing. I had hit a major wall, and decided to drop his rope and begin scaling it, because that was what I wanted=RECOVERY. I'm not sure, but it seems like he's beginning to scale the wall himself.

Now, when he does something for me, I WANT to thank him. I find myself WANTING to give to him, and I do. I find myself WANTING to kiss him, hug him, comfort him. None of this means that it's ALL good. NOPE. We've got a long way to go. What it does mean is that *I* am learning how to communicate in a loving, respectful manner. I am learning to ask for what I want and need. PWC isn't hitting every mark right now, but he's hitting some really important ones.

PWC came home May 5th 2007. I don't think withdrawal really started to wane until recently, but not all WS's are the same; your situation just sounds so much like mine.

mvg,

Thank you for your thread. Every poster is inspiring to me.

LA

SL, you're so right. We often forget that in our impatience to see results like those on these forums.


I wish, SL. We only have to deal with a long distance EA. You'd think we'd be further along than this by now. (uhhhhhhh....well....the 4 D-Days are a bit of a challenge to the trust rebuilding, I guess.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />....) Did you see where DH lied just last week? But....chin up...forge ahead....upward and onward. ~~~>~~~>~~~> We're all in this together.


See what I mean????? mvg, if we can inspire LA, you know we're doing well. Thanks LA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Acey

Maybe so Ace! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA if you pop in, I started reading the boundaries book yesterday by Cloud & Townsend...did you have input? SOUNDS like you so much to me and is very comforting.

I read that post from LA this morning, and shivers went up my spine. What an inspiration she's been to others, and here she is saying we inspire her. Right ON!!!

Ace,

I hear ya! I keep up on your thread, and did read about the recent lie. Old habits, and behaviors die pretty hard, don't they?! I know I have to beat mine back with a broom.

I can honestly say that I have so much more compassion for PWC, and the abyss that he has to come out of. If it's anything like what I have been scaling, it's tough work. I try to remember that; that this is not EASY for either one of us, and that I am not here to TEACH him, but I could be a very good example and teammate.

Sitting in the MC session...when DH offered me a D and possession of everything, I must confess I gave it some thought. Good thing we were with MC....which is why I did not post about the challenge here first.

I decided that if I have to beat, I'd rather just put my broom down. I was that tired and frustrated and disappointed and baffled (MC's word) and exasperated.

But we move on.....one more experience and another notch on the "We can accomplish much" belt that may help me help someone else along the way.

Speaking of helping someone else....did I ever tell you 'thank you' for sliding over to the recovery forum and helping Mishes when I sent that plea to the Killer Bees thread last spring? You were the only one who responded.....but our help may be bearing some fruit. Gotta find her thread and bump it soon. Hope you're out there, Mishes. How's it going?

Ace

I was thinking of mishes last week, wondering what was a'happenin with her. Thanks for thinking about bumping her thread. I'll be sure to keep an eye out.

Just a note to anyone who checks...not much going on here. I'm still looking for my grateful heart, right now I only find a broken one.

I have alot going on in my head, as you can tell with my posts this week. For some reason I'm very conflicted. I want so badly to have my H open up to what's going on with him. And I so badly want him to ask me the same thing. Maybe a nice Friday night convo date is in order.

Is it normal to go from happy to everything looks positive, to (for no apparent reason) down in the dumps, blue, don't know what to believe out of WH if he's truthful or just appeasing? I need some EN's met! UGH. I need to feel safe in my heart.

I hear ya, mvg! This is the epiphany that I told you about some posts back. I finally got that I had to take care of myself, not looking to PWC to do it. It's squarely on his shoulders, his commitment to the M. I am not looking to him to fill my EN's now. If he wants to , that's great. Sometimes he does (not my most important EN's).

This is certainly not how I pictured our recovery. I had to get over that first; that I had some control over his participation and how he participated in our recovery. IT was an illusion. Even though I was told we would do it the MB way, and he would get IC, it all fell through, once he was home. His choice.

I have one of two choices, continue on, very slowly, in the recovery process, giving it two years, or divorce right now.

Now, having chosen to try and tough it out, and to give this all that I can, I have also chosen to do lots of self-care. I don't look to him to go out of his way anymore. Is that a sad statment? For many, yes, for me, it's reality. I have a FWH who will not bring himself to give to me openly, out of what seems like fear.

He said something to me a while ago that really drove his point home. HE's afraid of succeeding in our M, partly because he may not want the M anymore, and will wonder if he missed an opportunity for something better (this was a while ago, when the waywardness and fog were still pretty thick). Well, I told him then that nobody was holding him here. HE hasn't left, so I assume he wants recovery, and am going that route.

I don't think I've seen many cases where the BS is NOT stuck shouldering the burden of early recovery. How unfair it is, but how realistic it is. We are the ones who have to guide the way, and do so by EXAMPLE.

Do what you can to fill your WH's EN's, mvg. Don't EXPECT anything in return. Don't sacrifice, do what you actually want to do, out of love and respect. Spend time together, follow the MB principles. Don't hinge everything on him suddenly getting it.

Be honest with him; tell him that you will give what you can, but that your most important EN's going unmet is draining your LB, so you need to step back a little, take it easy.

This is a marathon (as sdguy would say), not a sprint.

Hi ladies:

I was reading this thread and finding a lot of similarities in our sitch. I was wondering if I could join the gang in this thread...

My Dday was July 06, NC was promised Aug.06, was broken once Oct.06 by some brief email contact at work. March 07 WH attempted contact again "just to see how she was doing". Got no response from OW. That's when WH started really to put effort in our recovery and so far we are still on the roller coaster, but it's getting better day by day. No NC letter. He refused at first and now since OW maintained NC better than WH, it may not be a good idea to do that after such a long time actually NC.

My top EMs are not met still. I need words and more affection from him. He knows but couldn't give much to me.
We do suggle every night and have SF regularly, but mostly I initiate. He seems to have big issue of fear of rejection or some other factors that prevent him from giving me what I need. When I am light hearted and fun and forgiving, he seems so happy and everything improves. But I can't keep up like that for too long. I explode because of frustration and lack of deep communication. He still wouldn't open up too much. He hates my explosions and he told me once that he felt like a victim and felt like abused during my rage outburst. And I asked him to leave many times during my outburst and he left once to stay in a hotel for one night because I couldn't stand him to be here but not do what he is supposed to do: holding me while I'm in pain and be very remorseful. Don't get me wrong, he is remorseful. His actions tells me that. But he doesn't tell him he is sorry. He tries still to find justifications to his A while we talk. Which is why I can't stand him to be in the house somtimes.

But he has changed so much in every aspect. He does so much more than before. He comes home earlier from work, helps me with kids, makes dinner for us every weekend, plans vacations for the whole family, looking to buy a vacation home with an ocean view, talk so softly to me, buy me presents, talks about our future a lot, takes care of me when I don't feel well, etc, etc. But still he doesn't show me a lot of affections which is what I need the most.

I feel that the first thing I need to fix is my angry outburst. I do try very hard, but I am trigger by his attitude (his unapologitic to the A whenever it's mentioned)
and when it sets off, I can't seem to be able to control myself at all. I will be LB all over and usually set back our recovery a lot.

I think I finally recognize my part of it in getting us stuck in the recovery process and what to fix it in me. I know my H feels guilty for his A, but he can't bring himself to think it's not because of his true love to the OW yet. Otherwise he couldn't face himself. He had been a very honest and honorable man and a very kind man also. He is stuck now in his thinking process, but I think he knows he wants his family. He tries very very hard nowadays to keep the family together. He has a lot of fear of being kicked out also. But his pride makes him be very defensive every time his A is brought up. And I can't stand his attitude on this one.

But we do feel love to each other, very much so. He seldom tells me that, he is a man without words. But I do feel it in him.

I am fresh out of another round of my anger outburst. We are going very slow now. And I finally feel that I should change my ways. I need to control myself more. I need to start communicate with him in ways that he won't feel attacked and need to defend himself. I need to improve myself first in a lot of areas and not care too much about what he does and what he thinks. And learn to look at his actions instead of words.

I just think that you ladies are so strong and I have so much to learn from you. And I want to share my story to tell you that there are so many twist and turns in recovery
and the most important thing is to continue self improvement and control AOs and LBs. I know the effect of that. Whever I control my AOs and LBs, I get a lot more of my EMs met and it's a very positive cycle. But whenver I do LB, no matter what's my justification of it, I set back our recovery process and I regret doing it.

SL and mvg, I just want to say that I really admire your effort of keeping up your side of the work in recovery and I know from my experience that no matter what stage you are in recovery, that's the utmost important thing. It's also self love. I'm coming to this realization just recently and I still have a long way to go to improve myself in this department. I am finding inspiration in you.

Thank you ladies, and keep posting and inspiring others...

Loving

Well, LovingAlong, welcome to our party!

It's raucous and crazed sometimes, but we try to keep eachother from going over the edge of insanity.

If you look at my most recent thread (probably buried back on page 3 or further--I should prolly update it.) you'll see that I had one WHOPPER of an AO and mutilated a defenseless shirt, and tried to LB him down to ashes. What a horrific night that was. We even talked about separating again. I was so distraught and done.

That was it. I had gotten to a place of doneness with the track I was on. It wasn't working. I came here. Vented and got some really good thwacks about the head and some great advice.

Since then, I have been taking much better care of myself; I take baths when I want, or read or post here for support, I let the anger go and the laughter in. There is no pressure on either one of us to meet needs that we are not prepared for. I believe in getting there slowly but surely, now.

Before this, I was TRYING and TRYING and PUSHING MYSELF. Then I would wonder why he wasn't responding in MY TIMEFRAME, and would get angry and focused on what he wasn't doing, and stuff the anger, because I knew it was counterproductive . What I didn't try was airing my grievances WHEN they happened, instead of letting the anger build, and finding ways to communicate better .

I FEEL closer to PWC now, regardless of how he feels toward me. Maybe it's facing my fears of rejection, little by little. I dunno. I only know that it's working better now than it ever has. PWC asks me about myself, my health (I have some major neck issues, and had pneumonia recently). He cooks and cleans and takes excellent care of his son, and the dogs. He complains very little about any of it; and sometimes seems more filled with joy over the love of his son.

It's just been BETTER. I've found a formula that is working. I do have needs that are much more important TO ME (as in affection and words of affirmation), that do go widely unmet, but I'm not a cup half empty kind of girl. I recognize the potential for hot sex, warm cuddles and words of love on the horizon. I've put the breaks on, slowed my roll, realizing that 2 years is a mighty long time and this won't happen overnight.

I know now, I truly know, that I am doing everything that *I* can to make this happen, and feel really proud for having come to this point.

If you ladies don't mind, I'm going to cut and paste this into my thread, too.

Lovingalong thank you for posting...post any time. I'm learning so much here, for me and about me, still struggling with his part in our R though.

Do what you can to fill your WH's EN's, mvg. Don't EXPECT anything in return. Don't sacrifice, do what you actually want to do, out of love and respect. Spend time together, follow the MB principles. Don't hinge everything on him suddenly getting it.

Be honest with him; tell him that you will give what you can, but that your most important EN's going unmet is draining your LB, so you need to step back a little, take it easy.

This is a marathon (as sdguy would say), not a sprint.

SL thank you and thank you for repeating it again. I think your saying 'be honest with him..' that's the part I've been struggling with. That is the part I am/was so unsure of. I wasn't sure if telling him how I felt was LBing or not and I don't want to LB. Having said that, I still NEED to tell him one more time, I don't think I can continue on this particular path if he doesn't step up. The changes he has made are nice, very nice, but not enough I NEED some meat & potatoes. I feel sad to even say that.

Thank you both for posting.

Being honest will NEVER hurt your M, not if done out of love and respect. Also, don't repeat yourself. If you've already told him what you need, then leave that for him. Work on you; make sure you are giving YOURSELF what you need.

You two are still miles apart inside, so just start bridging the gap with what you can. Being honest is all a part of intimacy. If he does something that you think "gee that was thoughtful", then immediately ALOUD, say, "That was thoughtful of you" and leave it at that.

Honesty is not only about talking over your pain or disappointment, but your love and faith and appreciation.

Thank you so much SL for your post. You are such a strong person...

After last weekend's AO, we are slowly getting back on track. We both said many hurtful things, but when I really think about it, he was actually telling his truth to me (although it hurt), and I was attacking and not reasonable.

Last night he had to work very late. It's one of a month thing in a bank (his monthly publication day) and he emailed me first telling me he would be late, then he called me when I got home, and he called me again when he was ready to leave the office. It was nice of him. I should have said thank you, but for some reason, I just can't. I still feel a little coldness in me. I need to get rid of that. But I left a peeled apple at our kichen counter for him before I went to bed, and today I found the apple at our bedroom table. He brought it upstairs to enjoy but forgot to eat it because he was too tired.

We didn't snuggle last night. The feelings are still raw, his feeling of being hurt by my words and my feeling of "why should I always have to say sorry to him first" kind of thing...But I feel the closeness in us also. When I asked how his publication went when he came to bed last night, he answered very softly and he looked like he was so content sleeping at home...And without even a word after that, I know we were close at heart at that moment...

My next assignement, being appreciative when he does nice things for me and kids...I have been horrible at that. Sometimes I say thank you in an email afterwards, but I have problem saying that while he is doing it.

I learned so much in this thread... and I do need to implement that.

mvg: about being honest. Yes, I have been trying to be honest and tell him my feelings. But there is a right way and there is a wrong way. I remember one time that I said to him " I feel really bad that I had to initiate SF most of the time" and right after that, that night he intitated.
But last weekend when I exploded, I talked in a different way when I brought out my hurt feelings and it didn't go well at all. I was in a combat mood and he was very defensive. My experience is that using I statement, be calm and tell the truth. It will not be a LB. If you do it other ways, it won't go well. I have done that so many times and I learned from it now. But still, I need so much more practice in communicating in a constructive way, any advice on how to do it will be greatly appreciated. Also how to contain the anger. Sometimes it's uncontainable for me and I wonder if there is something wrong with me sometimes.

LovingAlong

LovingAlong, I am MUCH better with how we communicate now. Not perfect and rarily LB, DJ or AO...I think. I do tell him very often how much I appreciate what he does and the changes he's making.

SL, Being honest will NEVER hurt your M, not if done out of love and respect. Also, don't repeat yourself. If you've already told him what you need, then leave that for him. Work on you; make sure you are giving YOURSELF what you need.

Don't repeat myself. ewwwwwwww I don't like that at all. I know you're right,he's heard it MANY MANY times and still does nothing to meet those specific needs. So I guess repeating it isn't going to have any effect now either.

I'm trying to be 'good' to myself, I do take my own advice now and treat myself as a friend would. I just so miss a H who loves me and isn't withholding emotions from me and wants to meet my most important EN's. I really don't know how long I'm going to wait that out. If he can't/won't or whatever meet those there is no reason to stay. I know that sounds horrible and very ungrateful for the positive, I actually feel bad that is how I feel. He had NO problem giving them to the OW...that's what hurts the most. Deny me EXACTLY what I've asked for but give it to her.

LovingAlong I too wonder if there is something wrong with me. Actually I'm pretty sure there is I just don't know what.

There is nothing WRONG with you, mvg.

Your sentiment, about giving to OW and then not giving to you, is rejection, on some level. WE are all dealing with that. Reading Krazy 71's posts brings all those feelings of anger back to me. I want what I didn't have, that you then gave to OW.

Well, I'm looking for what I want and need, not what he gave OW. I have no earthly idea what he gave OW. I'm pretty sure sex was involved, which I don't get right now, but that's another story.

I want my husband back, not some backstabbing arsehole, that lied to everybody, including himself, so that leaves out what he gave to OW. I want all of him, not just part of him, warts and all, not just the 'pretty' stuff.

We all have our limits; I have mine. I can't, in good conscience, continue down that angry path hoping for some new response. It wasn't going to happen.

I also recognize that I am dealing with a marriage, not an affair . A marriage that was headin' down the tubes BEFORE he had the A's; A marriage that is still suffering from lack of communication, intimacy and safety. I'm starting with communication.

I do still feel rejection, because my FWH doesn't show desire for me. Why wouldn't I? I just don't allow it to reside with me for any real period of time. If he doesn't desire me, it's not because I'm NOT desireable; HIS LOSS.

I also don't want my husband PERFORMING for me, like a trained animal. I want to be DESIRED, WANTED. I don't want to say "Hop to it" and get a non-enthused sexual partner. I want the WHOLE SHEBANG. I want excitment and all that goes with it. I can wait for that.

I think you'll know when you've done all that you can; you will have made peace with yourself over it, and you will be sure. Right now, none of us is sure of anything.

Keep trying, keep finding your way. Tell me if you find a better way. We're listening.

mvg:

I understand what you said and darn it, I'm feeling exactly the same way!!

I said my H had never been a man of words, he never talks much, but you know what, he and the OW were talking and exchanging text msgs throughout the day and even at midnight...I want that too, but I'm not getting any.

Now I'm reading a book called "Loving what is". It has some interesting ways to question your thoughts and make peace with it. Here is an example about a woman questioning her thoughts with Katie (the auther) about her husband's lack of expressing feelings after his affair:

Marisa: ...I'm angry at my husband. I want David to express what he is feeling when he's feling it, because I'm tired of asking. And I'm too impatient to wait.

Katie: "Husbands should express what they're feeling" --- Is that true?

Marisa: Yes.

Katie: And what's the reality on this planet?

Marisa: Well, basically they don't.

Katie: So how do I know that husbands shouldn't express their feelings? They don't[the audience and Marisa laugh] sometimes. That's reality. "Husbands should express their feelings" is just a thought that we believe without a single piece of evidence. How do you react when you belive this lie? Can you hear where I'm coming from when I call it a lie? It's not true that he should express his feelings, because the truth is that he doesn't, in your experience. This doesn't mean that he's not going to fully express his feelings in ten minutes or in ten days. But the reality is that right now, it's not true. So how do you react when you think this thought?

Marisa: I'm angry and hurt.

Katie: Yes, and how do you treat him when you blieve the thought that he should express his feelings now, and he doesn't?

Marisa: I feel like I'm prying, I'm demanding something.

Katie: I would drop the "I feel like." You pry and demand.

marisa: But I...Oh! Yes. That's exactly what I do.

Katie: And how does it feel when you pry and demand?

Marisa: It doesn't feel good at all.

.......

There are a lot more and deeper stuff but I can't type them all.

I guess some messages in this book is good in that we hurt ourself using our own believes and nobody can hurt us except our own thoughts. And by questioning the thoughts and turn it around, we may find peace in us and leave whatever is other people's problem with them and mind our own growth and our own peace more. Maybe that's what we need to do during this journey.

I know it's easy said than done, but it is self love. We need to stop hurting ourselves with those hurtful thoughts, especially the ones about OW.

LovingAlong.

Thanks SL & LovingAlong, your patience,openness & honesty is so appreciated. I think I might be getting a clearer picture. I will try very hard to overcome my desires that cloud the present!

(((happy Friday)))

update: We had a very nice evening last night. H was chatty, attentive, and sweet and most importantly I felt it.

I will keep trying very hard to live in the now and pray for my desires to not cloud my current blessings.

We had a nice weekend. Nothing 'special' but a nice weekend.
I did not bring up my wanting more, and it wasn't as hard as I was making it.

I'm really trying hard to heed the advice given here. Live in today and enjoy.

Thanks!

Good job, mvg, enjoying the time together.

The Christmas party was ROCKIN'! Lots of people. It was really crowded. I got a chance to talk to everybody. I got many comments on my dress and hair (the girls noticed my shoes). People said that I looked pretty, and some commented about it multiple times, in a really complimentary way. It was really nice.

By the end of the night, my head was THROBBING (~1AM), so PWC ended up driving us home.

I relaxed Saturday, and we decorated the tree. I had some champagne and enjoyed the night. I stayed in the moment, also.

Keep striving to live in the now, mvg.

I oooooh, so understand where you guys are right now. I have faith that this is all part of the journey. Let's learn from it, instead of wishing it away.

How ironic....... as we learn from it, it (challenging journey bumps) very possibly will just GO AWAY! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, SL.....

Ace

Thanks SL.

I am so glad you had a good time at the party.

I hope you're right about learning from the trials we face from ourselves and others.

Hi girls:
I am busy this week. The whole floor of my office is undergoing renovation and we can only work in the computer lab. It's hard and I don't get to even read much of the board now...Anyway, just want to say that I'm thinking of you...
I have a good several days with H also, by staying in the present, I see a lot of things he is doing and showing me his love...some things he is not comfortable doing, but I can see he is trying and I do have some specific questions to ask you ladies, but I need to wait until my office is done to get some privacy...
SL, I read your recent post and I really feel for you. I do understand. I can't figure out what's going on with you H either. It sounds very strange to me. I will share more about our earlier days also, there are some similarities with your sitchs, but there are some differences also, I will try to post more later...But I just want to say that you are a very strong and lovely woman, believe in that no matter what he does or does not do for now...

MVG - Just got caught up on all the posts I have missed. Haven't paid homage to my computer like normal. I know exactly where you all are. But as you know my problem is the opposite. I get all the affection and words of affirmation I can get...more than I want. That is my problem, however, not his. That is how he shows his love...I don't. I am trying to be patient and let him show me his love the way he wants to. I am also trying very hard to return the affection and words of affirmation back to him. This is proving very difficult. Not the affection part (it is getting easier), but I am finding the words of affirmation very hard to do. It's like they get caught in my throat.

I am making myself tell him thank you for the little things he does and to tell him that I notice his improvements. It is very hard. Before the A, I know he did these things..but I thought I should get them anyway so I never acknowledged them. Then he stopped and things got bad fast. I am doing my best to give him what he needs. Odd that a man like him could crave affection and encouragment the most, huh.

He has been much more attentive to the financial difficulties as of late (late last night..lol). But he did come up with an idea of how to drum up some money which at least shows me he is trying and understands.

It shows that he is listening to me and is doing his best to give me what I need. I am very impatient, as you know, and I am trying to remember not to push him.

And by the way...I managed to refrain from slamming on my brakes on the way to his doctors this morning. See, I am improving. lol.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know GC in one of the books...can't remember which one, it says sometimes you just have to practice doing the right things even when they feel unnatural...given time they become natural. So I wish you well on that.

It is a GREAT sign he's at least trying to come up with solutions! ^5 WH This is a big positive.

Must give you kudos too for NOT slamming on the breaks.

LovingAlong, please let me know when you post more about your sitch. I'm glad you are able to stay in the here and now. I'm struggling with it. I'm hoping it's just the holiday stuff...suppose to be all lovey dovey, happy and romantic...I WISH! I can't wait for the holidays to be over if that's the case.

SL keep up your good works! I read and posted on your thread. I KNOW you'll make the right decision (whether to talk to him or not) for you when it's the right time. Have you considered that maybe your H is so ashamed of himself and guilty of hurting you that's why he's so hands off? Just a thought I had, have no idea whether he fits that description or not.

(((prayers to all)))

Here and Now.....where and what?

I guess that means I'm struggling, too. Bulk mail triggered me today. WUWT (What's Up With That...) I just made that up, I think.

This reminds me of LC's signs segment on the Vacation thread, so I think I'll post it over there. If I forget, mvg, remind me to post about how bulk mail was a sign from God, at least I think it was.

Acey

Will do Ace! I like the WUWT!

Hey mvg,

I'm taking a bit of a time out before discussing anything with PWC--I'm FAR too emotional right now--thinking it's a hormonal shift, and probably a bit of a dip in my own coaster. I'm looking at the changes I have witnessed over the past month and looking on what he HAS done and does do for me. It's tough because affection is my TOP need right now.

I can see why the BS is the biggest threat to recovery once it begins. I GET it now. WUWT?! Ha, I had to use it!

I do think it's time for us to at least go through the motions of physical touch, even if it's something really small. I liked LA's suggestions. I have to be honest, too. I don't have a lot of faith that PWC will be receptive. So far, he has shown me that he is not . He has said that he doesn't believe in faking it until you make it. It's either there or it's not. IT sounded like a lot of babble, so I turned the tables on him at that time, and asked him if he was just head over heels love at first sight with OW#1 or Aimless. His answer, "well, no, it developed over time." riiiiiight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He tries so hard to defend this position (well, in the past and even our last conversation on this subject not long ago). It takes effort and time to fall in love, It takes WORK, to pay all that attention to the person of your choosing, woo them. The feelings develop over time. He knows this to be true, but tries to make it NOT apply in our sitch .

Anway, I know I'm hyper emotional right now, because as I type this, my IRE is rising. I just wanna wring his neck sometimes, when he says asaninie stuff like the above.

anyway, I need to chill a bit. As Foxy lady said, I do have a lot going on, just with me, and would be wise to think this through before DOING anything.

SL you have more than your fair share on your plate right now. Taking a break to sit back and observe is a GOOD place.

I can see why the BS is the biggest threat to recovery once it begins. I GET it now. WUWT?! Ha, I had to use it!

Seems like that's not fair either does it?! UGH!!! I understand wanting to wring their necks! A nice dream huh?!
Again, we wait, hope and pray.

Have you seen the V8 commercial? Someone thunks the other on the forehead when they make a BAD food choice and coulda had a V8?! THAT'S HOW I FEEL ALOT! Why oh why can't Ws's feel our need?! WUWT?! (that little acronymn is getting good use <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

SL will he pull away from you if you held his hand, hugged him, or give him a quick peck of a kiss?

As I've probably mentioned my WH wasn't a touchy kinda guy but once I started with the quick peck, squeeze of the arm, grab his hand give a quick squeeze and walked away, he found he liked that and will on occassion do the same. Maybe your's would too???

My thoughts and prayers are with you. When is your surgery?

PWC doesn't recoil in any way when I do touch him. I just need to get back in the HABIT of doing it, and then see what that begets. We'll see.

My surgery is the 4th of January.

Hee Hee Hee...made me laugh out loud!!!! I've posted the signs story but put it on the Smiles thread....too serious for the Vacation thread. Hey SL...join us in taking a break from all this on the Vacation thread.....love to have you anytime.......every one else, too.

Acey

I read on and off, but haven't posted. I'll read up Ace! Thanks!

Hey Ace! See it IS true, we can learn something new everyday! WUWT! LOL

SL, try the touch and walk away..it really didn't take long for my H to discover he liked it. Now the second part of that is getting HIM to touch you. I normally would do the quick kiss on head or cheek when H is on computer. What I started AFTER he started liking the attention is...say he called me over to show me something on puter..I'd look at him and say "I know you called me just so you could hug me (kiss me, whatever) while I read this" smile, and sure enough he'd do what I had mentioned. Feels a little silly BUT I get at least a little of what I want, and HOPEFULLY he's learning...he's rather thick headed at times.

Give it a shot, you've got no where to go but up.

mvg:

I love your "touch and walk away" advice...I think I can apply to my H also.

SL:

In the earlier days of recovery, my H was not receptive to any touch either, let alone giving me any. At that time, my hormone and SF drive was so high for some wired reason and that complicated things a whole lot. I hope I had people giving me those kind of advice when I was so frustrated. H said he was smothered and he pulled away more...

One thing that worked for me was to try to give relaxation massages. At the end of the day, I asked H if his shoulders was tired or whatever and I would just give him some massages and that's the first thing he was receptive. He said that felt good even when other touches felt really stressful to him. You can buy an electronic ones that does the massage when you push a botton and after you do it to him, ask him to do it to you, ask it like it's not a big deal...

And I don't know if talking about it would be much helpful. I tried a lot of talking too but they all ended up not pulling us closer. Of course I couldn't keep calm during those talks.

I noticed about my hormonal cycle also. My anger and resentment would peak the week before my period and a lot of
the LBs and setbacks happened during that week because of my emotional outbursts. It's definitely hormanal and it started after Dday for me. I'm thinking about finding medical help for it. It's very severe for me and affects my mood a lot.

LovingAlong

I noticed a big shift in hormonal influence of emotions after Dday, too. Maybe I'm just more tuned in to my emotions now, or I've tapped into deeper emotions, but it can drive me nuts. That's why I'm not emailing, talking about it or anything right now. I'm a powder keg of emotion. I could cry with sorrow WHILE wringing his neck in anger at the same time.

I think I just need to heed the advice of LG, mvg, LA and yours, lovingalong. I need to touch and go. I've been doing this since he came home, but maybe it's not enough or the RIGHT kind.

Hi ladies: I just changed my screen name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. This will make things a bit easier since we already have an LA that we all respect and give such great advice, I need to be somebody else <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

We are off to a week long ski trip from this Friday and hopefully we will have a lot of fun there.

You know what, H asked what I wanted for Christmas (he never asked before)...I told him I wanted a new ring, with a new date, and his name and a word or two from his heart...I said you asked ;-)...And he asked me what's my ring size :--). So I'm expecting a nice Christmas present from H this year...

Snow White, GREAT NAME!!!

Have a wonderful trip, go slow and watch out for those dang trees, okay? Sounds like loads of fun. I haven't been skiing in years. I don't think my doc will recommend it in my current state. I need to get my BACKIOTOMY first.

Thanks SL. We will definitely try.
I'm sorry about your surgery again, but it's time to take care of it, right? You will feel better and stronger after it's taken care of. I'm praying for you.
Try to relax a bit also. I know about the mood swings all too well, especially when things are going up and down. I don't know the answer to all your questions, but always take good care of yourself and try to relax when emotions are high. I couldn't do it and it damaged me and my marriage so much...I know you are stronger and will do better.

SW

Hey lovingalong I like the new name too!!!
I hope you and H have a great ski trip. AND I PRAY you get exactly what you asked for, for Christmas!!!

SL is your surgery just on your neck or back or both? I was thinking (and that could be the confusion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) it was your neck.

mvg,

the surgery is in my neckage area (C5-C7 fusion). I got BACKIOTOMY from a movie ("Half Baked").

Well, I'm back to smiling again (it's my favorite). I read Starfish's post on Acey's MB success stories thread and it reminded me of where I am now, and who I am now. I felt about a thousand times better when I went to bed last night, and when I woke up, even better.

I arrived home after work yesterday, and found my clothes from the dryer folded and ready to be put away. It was a really nice thing for PWC to do for me. When I was putting my clothes away, I just felt so normal; the whole situation felt normal, and good, positive. What is it with me and clothes?

Really, though, it was the kindness of my husband that helped.

Hey is half baked the movie the kills the horse with food????

I'm glad you are feeling better. Today seemed a little more on the bright side for me too...no reason why just is, so I'm going with the flow for now.

Yes, Buttercup was her name.

Oh yeahhhhh I remember it now...H loves that movie.

I read star's post too...WOW. It is very hopeful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We're having a extended family gathering today. Definately a house full of folks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope it warms up a little so the kids can run around outside if they want...or we need them too! LOL

Happy Saturday folks!

P.S. I'm having one of those days...insecure,ugly,unwanted by H. Damn Hormones!Limbo land feeling even with happiness of family coming for visit. UGH. I hope by saying this to shall pass over and over, it will.

Family gathering was very nice, hectic but nice. Everyone enjoyed it.

H was good about interacting with everyone which is good also. Sometimes he'll just be standoffish. So I was very happy with him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have a good one folks!

Mvg,

Stress events...which turn out well...because people show up and be people.

There's a huge road between insecure and secure...seems you were midway, because you didn't say you were worthless...and you looked to the darn hormones as first suspect.

So you know you're smart...be secure that you're smart, 'k?

Ugly? Signals you're not looking at your beauty...must be choosing to compare...which is worthless...why God made us unique. Kinda rules out comparison right off the bat, eh?

Heroic comes to mind.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And you found something to admire your FWH about...wowsers. Did you share your appreciation and admiration with him today?

Were you happy with yourself, too?

LA


Snowy ~ I like your new name...especially since you're off skiing...and dazzling...I do feel kinda bad for having the LA first, though. Didn't even know you thought I gave okay advice...so thank you very much for sharing.

LA

<Sheepishly admitting> I avoided posting to LovingAlong to avoid confusion. I like Snow White, too. Pleased ta meetcha!

I disagree, though, Snowy....LA does not just give OK advice...she gives stupenduous, terrific, phenomenal, lifechanging, mind-altering (positive way) advice.

As Forrest Gump might say ...and thayats all eye 'ave t'sayah 'bout thayat! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Acey

Acey,

I'm the one who said okay...Snowy was more eloquent.

Thanks for your opinion, Acey. You're a treasure. Who knew you were awesome at writing dialect? Very tricky. I'm impressed.

And that's the second time today that Forrest Gump has been quoted. How 'bout that?

LA

mvg,

if you recognize it as hormones, recognize, along with that, that it will pass; that you just have to hang in there. If something comes up during this time, write it out. If it's still bothering you when the hormonal rush dissipates, discuss it then.

I had the same issue this past week. I wrote it out, and when I was feeling better, and calm, I relayed the information to PWC, in a concise, loving manner, with very little emotion. I was actually POSITIVE in my delivery on some very serious subjects, focusing on the POSITIVEs, of getting there, not quesitoning anymore "Are we gonna get there?", but knowing that MY goal is recovery; getting there.

LA,

Your posting is refreshing. I always feel relieved when I'm feeling something strange, or a challenge, or FEAR and YOU post, talking about the very things I'm experiencing, in such a human way. There is sincerity and love behind your posts. You know what we suffer at OUR OWN HANDS, and you just want to share how to escape the grief, by going THROUGH IT.

I want to bid you all (mvg, LA, Snow (lovingalong), Acey and all others reading) a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Hi LA! How are things going with you?

Thanks for checking in on me. I'm really ok, just normal ups & downs I think. And I did tell H how pleased I was with his interacting with family.

LA does not just give OK advice...she gives stupenduous, terrific, phenomenal, lifechanging, mind-altering (positive way) advice.
tats the trufh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Acey!

SL & Mvg...

Gifts of your presence on MB...and everywhere you are. Please know you are truly gifts on this earth.

Thank you for being special gifts to me, too.

When you bring back what I've said, through you, you enhance it...and deliver it again when I need to hear it most. Thank you for being here and being you.

LA

ahhhh shucks! I'm blushing a little. Merry Christmas my friends.

Is it the holidays or is there such a thing as BS blues?

All day yesterday I kept feeling sad. I tried counting my blessings which are many but I couldn't stay focused on them. Lots of memories floating around in my head. Our first christmas together...we were so happy, excited, fully of joy, happy to be together, the world was ours! Christmas was just going thru the ritual. Very disconnected.

I find myself analysing everything. Doubting what I think and feel. Not knowing what to do next.

How do you get thru this???? I don't LB according to WH. His only EN that he wanted improved was SF which now he's only very ocassionaly interested. Is it me with the SF? Does he not find me sexually attractive? Does he think of her or someone else then?

According to him there is NOTHING I can do to improve our relationship everything I do is fine. So what do I do? I feel very lost and alone.

I don't feel he's being O&H. I am NOT perfect! I do LB! So I don't get it. Has he checked out for the most part emotionally? Am I the old comfortable shoes he just doesn't want to get rid of? OR is he waiting for me to have the guts to leave and he won't have to make that decision, it will be all me?

Will leaving give me any peace? Will it make things easier to deal with NOT seeing him every day? Will it be easier for HIM to not deal with me every day? Do I give up everything here move back home to find out?

After dday he told me, "you wanted to marry Ward Cleaver, but you married Ozzie Osborne". Not a great comparison but the more I've thought about it he might be right. I do want a MAN that loves me, wants to take care of me, put my needs and desires first, make a safe home.

I'm just really blue and sad yesterday and today. I'm mad too...damn him for having an EA. Damn me for finding all the messages and having them play over and over. Damn me for so believing in a husband that you trust. Damn him for not fighting harder for ME now.

Well, I lost my last post, crapola!

mvg, YOU have to be O&H, stop stuffing. This does nobody any good. YOu think and feel how you think and feel. Don't doubt that you will wake up tomorrow, and still feel the same and think the same--UNLESS, you change something.

Stop questioning IN YOUR HEAD, and start questioning him, even if you have to send it in a letter, get it out, without LB or anger, but coming from the place that you are exhibiting here, from sadness.

If you are asking if you will find peace in leaving, then I doubt you will. When you are done, you will know it, for you will have tried all that you have within you to do.

After Dday, he told you what any fogged out zombie would to essuage his guilt, by making you feel like you are crazy, like you don't remember things as they were. Please don't allow someone else to change your memories and blur your reality. You know who you married, so stop questioning that. That man is changed, for sure, but don't allow him to rewrite YOUR memory.

Just be honest with him, stop stuffing, and get on with your day. You must speak your mind in order for him to know. Walk into the fear and talk to him. You may not hear what you want, but you will hear the truth, then you can make a better plan for your sitch.

Can you call JenniferC or SteveH?

SL thank you...I did face my fear and we talked...alot, and honestly. I feel better, he looked dumbfounded and surprised. He says he had no idea I was feeling so confused or sad or thinking about leaving. He thought everything was ok. I hope he realizes now he can't assume he knows how I feel or what I think. We'll see.

We both agreed NOT to stuff our feelings and to deal with things as they occur.

Thank you. I hope your Christmas was happier than what I felt.

I have seen SMALL changes in PWC since I talked to him about my needs. I'm not expecting some miraculous turnaround, but I AM expecting some participation in meeting these needs. He's doing it. Still not touching me, but sitting closer, more relaxed, letting our feet touch, arms touch (he would pull away before0.

Part of the change is me and my demeanor. I'm done with the eggshells. I've swept them up and glide around swiftly now. He can do what he chooses; I choose to chug along with recovery, especially my recovery. ME being stronger can only mean good things, for me and my marriage.

It's much easier to think without all that emotion swirling around. Since the A's, I have some pretty deep emotional wells to deal with; like I said, they could have sprung from the depths of pain that you encounter upon Dday and the ensuing fight to save and recover your M. I dunno, but something changed in me after that pain.

I'm also able to feel even HAPPIER since Dday, but only after I applied myself to personal recovery. Now, I have some really great days, that aren't really that remarkable, but I FEEL great, and it lasts for a while, not like some quick fix (HIGH), but like a permanent thing. I only feel UNHAPPY when I let the anger and sadness consume me, and when I don't SPEAK UP.

And as for this...



You have to ask yourself, why WOULDN'T he think everything was okay, since you weren't telling him it wasn't. None of us are mind readers, mvg. This, I believe is where true intimacy lies, in TALKING to each other about our biggest fears, and revealing guarded things about ourselves to one another.

My Christmas was good. My son was so happy about Santa visiting the house. On Christmas Eve, after the little tyke went to bed, we wrapped his presents. It was fun, we were joking and talking, laughing and enjoying the moment. Christmas day was fine. My family came over and we spent the day together. My sister (a colorist/stylist) cut my hair off (because I wanted to) in a very short style. She's going to color it tomorrow; probably a caramel color with chunky highlights.

mvg, what I realized in all of this mess that we have been living, is that I have to be able to say that I pulled my weight, did my part. If I'm withholding important information about what inner turmoil I'm experiencing, then I'm not doing my part to get that intimacy I so desperately want in my marriage. I won't end my M until I KNOW that I have nothing left to give or contribute (or no more want to do it), AND PWC is not engaged.

You'll probably feel better just by virtue of speaking up and being honest. Practice what MB preaches, regardless of what you FWH does.

The stuff that Orchid posted is soooo valuable. I read a lot of it last night (couldn't sleep).

Hi everybody, mvg, SL, LA, etc...
Hope you all had a great Christmas.
I'm just back home from Killington, VT. The 6 night ski trip was good. The whole family went to blue trail for the first time, yeah!! Considering we started skiing only from last year, it's a great achievement, right??
I will definitely read more and write a bit about my experience tomorrow. For now, ladies, have a great night.

Snowy ( LA, I love the nickname you gave me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Hey Snowy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Glad you had such a good time sking. You'll have to post more details on your trip.

SL, EVERYTHING in your last post is right on the money! I didn't realize how much I was stuffing my feelings. Letting him know WHERE I was emotionally for ME was very good, not so sure about him, but I think it was good for him to hear. I hope NOW we can begin this recovery together.

And I hope when I have my doubts again, you will be here to thunk me on the head!!!!

I'm so glad that you are feeling better about your situation, and pray that will grow to a better M for you and your H!

How are you holding up with your upcoming surgery?

mvg, how is your H's reaction to that you're actually thinking about leaving? Are are his plans now to make it work?

I'm pretty fearful of the whole surgery thing, of everything involved, of which my top fears are healing time, mobility, and the effect this will have on our already rocky recovery.

I, personally, do not believe that my M is IN recovery. I think we're living together, I'm doing lots of personal recovery, and we'll see. It's really now up to PWC to 'get it'.

I don't think he wants to end our relationship or marriage, according to his actions, but I can't know what he wants if he won't speak up.

I'm feeling the stress of a lot of things.

Are you guys in MC, SL? (Sorry if I've missed it when/if you've said.) If it were not for our MC, I think we'd be in the same boat you guys are in. He (MC) did not remember much about MB after reading HNHN years ago, but he is reinforcing everything we're learning. MC said he took an afternoon and read most of the MB web site (after we started seeing him and I mentioned these forums) He is in agreement for the most part...but he's tougher, in fact....said that DH should not even turn on a computer without me or someone I trust looking over his shoulder ...now and forever.

After this last session of lies (3 weeks ago) and MC's subsequent harsh rebuke, FWH finally 'gets it'....I think....I hope.....I pray. He's still here and we are increasing our intimacy of communication. Having our MC to 'fall back on' boosts my confidence, too. When MC was out of the country and we had that near meltdown at the first of our vacation, I was in panic mode. DH started crying in frustration....and then I was OK. Go figure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I guess I set that (working with a tough MC) as one of my early boundaries but it was actually DH's idea to see this one instead of the previous one who he didn't respect. Now it seems like DH is living in peace with himself....he says he likes feeling clean. But, old habits do die slowly...for both of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

DH says that my personal recovery has helped him see the new value of our relationship and marriage. Don't discount it, SL.....regardless what happens with PWC, you'll be further down the road because of personal improvements. (I'm trying to develop the same mindset and DH is noticing more and more.)

Ace

mvg:

Good for you that you talked to your H about your feelings. I need to learn from you for being open and honest with H. I still stuff a whole lot and when I talk, I can't really stay calm and loving, it's just so hard, isn't it? Sometimes I still can't believe what H did...and fantasize about leaving him and let him taste what life feels like without me, hehe, that would be fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...But for some reason, I just can't leave...

SL, I know how stressful life could be. I remember when H was depressed and in withdrawal, my whole life was a mess. Even after he turned around in a way, that was when he decided to recommit to M and make our life together better...he still doesn't want to find out why he had an A and even hasn't really apologized to me for how he hurt me yet...So he still hasn't got it in a lot of sense and I still feel unsafe a lot of times. Now I feel that personal recovery is what I need to do, just like you. And no matter what phase you are in recovery of the M, personal recovery is very important. I know probably we are further along in M recovery since H started to put in a lot of effort, but with that, also comes a lot of trying to do deeper into the whys and how to overcome the triggers and how to convince oneself that staying is the right choice and not to hit and kick him a lot of times when rage just hit you like a rolling rock...I don't know if I am making sense here, I'm just trying to say that by doing personal recovery, you prepare for all things that could happen and you become stronger for any situation. That's what I am trying to do and I have a lot to learn here.

Ace: I hope now you can post to me since I'm not LA anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I respect LA so much and I did feel ackward with the same name...

Below is my detailed update about my trip:

I did get what I was asking for: a new ring for Christmas !!
Inside the ring, FWH put: Love H ( H is his real initial). It's the first time he said the word without me prompting him and I'm truly glad he did.
Our wedding ring is a big trigger for me since OW took his ring off the night they spent in the hotel. I bought him a new ring right after he came back home after spending two days in that hotel with OW. Since then my ring sometimes trigger bad feelings and I'm glad he got me a new one finally. It would be nicer if he did it without me asking, but I learned to be happy with what I got.

The whole trip was very nice. We spent a lot of time with our friends also. H was nice most of the time, attentive and caring. One time we ran into a stressful situation and we argued for about 10 minutes in the car but we recognized that we fell into old patterns and stopped that. No real damage was done.

H told me again that he felt that he didn't have much to talk about with those two families we went together. I noticed that he felt inadequate comparing to those two husbands since he both have a lot of time to spend with kids helping kids with their homeworks etc and they talked a lot about that and H felt inadequate. I know H has been trying so hard to improve in this department, but his work schedule is much more demanding than those two friends and maybe I should appreciate more about what he is doing now with kids and give him more confidence in this??

H also talked about wanting to have some quiet time to himself reading his technical journals. I have mixed feelings about this, but I think I do understand. He has been spending all his time with me and kids and he must feel a little overwhelmed. I told him I did understand.

And for the first time, he didn't take his blackberry with him. He used his blackberry for work and also for his A ( exchanging txt messages with OW throughout the day) and he knew I hated it and I asked him not to take it during our last vacation also but he said he needed it for work. This time I didn't ask, but he remembered and he didn't take it...He is being very considerate. I haven't thanked him for that yet. But now I feel like that I shouldn't make it a big deal by thanking him. So I will leave it as it. I will be really nice if he can keep it up for our upcoming vacations.

Also for the first time in more than a year, I feel like I can leave his blackberry cell phone bills unchecked. I always check his calls every months, now this month I feel so safe that I don't think I need to check. When the bill comes in the mail, he saw it but didn't take it...He was waiting for me to check it first...Now I think I can give the mail to him unopened tonight...I hope he will feel trusted and appreciate that...We will see.

There were several moments I felt the holiday BS blues as mvg put it. I just felt sad and fantasized about leaving him and leaving all this baggage behind me. I became quiet before we slept. H seemed to noticed and he initiated some nice feet touches ( pretty rare from him still to initiate any affection ). I didn't respond and we both withdrew a bit. But after a while I got out of my own bad mood and we were close again. I was thinking how I should actually tell him how I felt next time to avoid him playing the guessing game. But I was afraid it would turn into something bad to spoil everything. I am very bad at talking about negative feelings. I communicate with him via email sometimes more successfully than face to face. I know I need to face my fear of talking those topics and learn some calming techniques to help me when emotions are too high.

Thank you SL for saying that we shouldn't stuff our feelings and we should talk from a place of love. I noticed that whenever I tried to talk from a place of love, I get very good results. Both of us would be calmer and it won't escalate into something bad. I will need more practice, but I will remember that...

OK, I need to drive to work now. Thanks for listening to my rambling...It's great that we can share this way...I have nobody to talk to about this stuff in real world...

Snow

Hey Ace! I'm going to respond to you on my thread, so as to not TJ too much here, AND add recent information; I just spoke to PWC.

StillSame, My H was SURPRISED! He 'thought' things were so much better. His plan is still somewhat vague...I'm going to try again to get him to read 5 love language book and HNHN. He is having a hard time with meeting my words of affirmation, he even admitted he's not sure why. I told him this is a VERY important EN and effort has to be made to meet it. We still have some talking to do about meeting both of our needs as I think when he filled out the ENQ he was still foggy. I just pray that he is serious about working on this together and not just thinking he can 'wing it'.

Hi mvg,

Expect him to wing it for two reasons:

1. You cannot control him.

2. Old habits die slowly.

What you CAN CONTROL is how you respond (not react) when he does 'wing it'.

For me, as I focused on self improvement, I gradually created a motivation for WH to WANT to WORK WITH me. He is making such a terrific effort that I think I'll try to revive that thread that Mopey started to ask "What does real recovery look like so you know if your WH is working towards being an (F)WH? (or something like that). It circulated when I was off making movies this summer and I read it once but lost track of it by the time I returned.

Every couple is different, though, mvg. What worked for me MIGHT work for you but only you and your H can really know. Our tough MC pushes the envelope with both of us.

Glad you had the chat and that you made it safe for him to be surprised without condemnation. That's the beginning of the 'safety' my WH needed to feel when I registered and began learning all about these MB concepts nearly a year ago.

Be patient, work on things you can control, vent to us when you can't. Simple sounding, I know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Also, it's helpful to get a vision of what your RECOVERED status will look like. This will give you a focus when you get impatient and begin to lose hope.

Also, have you made a list (and added to it regularly) of the good things in all aspects of your life? This often enlightens one to the positive things that may have been taken forgranted, overshadowing progress that needs to be acknowledged. That might help you keep focused, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

P.S. Thanks for your reply on your thread, SL. (Going there next.)

Ace = So NOT a newbie...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mark

Gaarrsshhh, Mark...you make me blush. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />*

Does this mean I'm growing up to be like you? Oh, yeah, I said I wanted to grow up to be like Pep. Heck....I just wanna grow up....PERIOD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, thanks, Mark <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ....and mvg, sorry for the TJ but he started it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ace

* Ya think RIF will notice 4 blushy faces instead of 3 or 5?

DITTO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .... and U 2, Mark!

I know I haven't said it much but I appreciate u guys posting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Please keep up the good work.

Have a nice day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hey TJ's are fine by me!

Ace thanks for your points above.
Also, it's helpful to get a vision of what your RECOVERED status will look like. This will give you a focus when you get impatient and begin to lose hope.

I think this is where I start to have trouble. I'm not sure what recovery looks like....not the fantasy recovery, the REAL one, ya know?!

My biggest issue right now is WHY he won't meet my most important EN's. He says he doesn't know. So I'm befuddled and a bit hurt. He can profess his love till dooms day but it doesn't help me understand why he can't/won't meet my most important EN's. There has to be a reason, doesn't it? If I didn't put forth effort to meet his our R would suffer so I don't get his reluctance/down right not happening approach.

Am I rushing things? Is this to much to expect at almost 5 months? I dunno.

I'm going to copy a post I wrote to LG this morning, hopefully I can find some help and advice here too. Sorry I don't have any positive thoughts this morning. We are still in the roller coaster ride...

LG:
Thank you so much for posting to me...You always bring a lot of compassion and wisdom with your words.
Yes, I talked about the answers I need, but he wouldn't give them to me at this point. It's very disappointing to me and I'm trying to live with it for now and see what happens.
Just this morning, I had a dream and in the dream I asked him what hotel he stayed with OW and he told me although with a lot of hesitation. I felt a sense of relief and woke up. After I woke up, I told H about the dream and asked the question. He
was loving with I told him I had a dream and instantly withdrew when I asked the question. He told me he didn't remmeber, which was a lie. He became distant and angry also after I asked. Then I asked him to hold me because I felt pain. He did, but very reluctantly. Then it suddenly hit me that his hands didn't give me much comfort at all since he still kept a lot of secrets with OW and I felt that his hands were dirty. I don't know why, but I was angry at that moment and told him so. We both got angry and withdrew.
He is having a cold now and doesn't feel good and I have been trying to take care of him, but I just don't feel much love at this point. I still fantasize about leaving.
I am also having my time of the month that my mood swings down and it's hard to control that.
I do know that I don't want to throw our M out of the window at this point and neither does he. But we don't seem to be able to get an agreement on this important issue.
He told me that the only way he could heal was to bury the whole thing and for me to never mention about it. And I told him I couldn't heal this way. And he told me repeatedly that he never forced anybody to do anything and nobody can force him to do anything...meaning that he won't talk about things that he doesn't want to talk about...
I get that. The only thing I can control is me. And I'm thinking if I can live with his man with his kind of mindset even if he provides great financial security, tries to improve his involvements with kids, buys me presents, holds me when I ask him or when I tell him I'm in pain, doesn't initiate SF but enjoys it when I initiate, does NC with OW, went through a painful withdrawal from OW, what else did he or does he do? Oh, he also makes dinner for us every weekend and says that's the best time he can imagine, cares about me when I'm sick, does whatever I ask for him if it's in his comfort zone, seems to be fearful of me sometimes although I truly love him and is loving most of the time...
This time unlike most other times, I stayed calm. I removed his hands from my tummy because they didn't bring comfort and got up to write a post in here, instead of getting angry
and engage in an argument with him.
I think I'm getting stronger and he noticed that. He is now trying to engage in conversations and take care of the kids while I just feel cold towards him. I told him when he told lies to me his whole person changes in my mind, which is true.
I don't know how to go from here. I know I don't want to disrail this recovery at this time, but seem to stuck at this point.

I still remember your way of writing them down and let him pick and answer and feel that's the best way in our situation. I talked to him, he is not receptive. He said he wouldn't be forced to do anything.

Don't get me wrong. I don't talk about it all the time. This is the first time in a whole month that I ever mention anything related to his A. I have been trying to look forward and things had been getting very well between us, we felt almost normal, like it never happened, just more in love with each other than before. But there are things that's blocking our progress and his refusal to answer questions is a big one. He seems not willing or not able to do it. And it's draining my love bank pretty fast.

Any advice how to go from here? I do still love him and I feel his love to me also...Help!

Snow (LovingAlong)

MVG - Happy New Years!!!!

Snow,

Tell him that you need the answers to these questions. Maybe type or write out a list of them for him to read and tell him that whenever he is comfortable to bring one to your attention and answer it. I know that is hard, but I am still finding answers to my questions simply because my H decides to answer them on his own time. It is frustrating and I am not a patient person, but he will have to do it when he is comfortable. You will simply have to wait. Others may have better advice, but that is what worked for my H.

p.s. I am also wondering what the definition of complete and real recovery is.

Happy New Year everyone!

Snow, after reading your post a couple of times, I have to say you are very patient! I'm not sure what the vets might advise you on 'needing to know'. I know that I couldn't/wouldn't survive without answers, most of which I got fairly quickly...a couple of months.

Have you read Joseph's letter? It's a letter to WS about the BS needing to know. Maybe he would respond/understand after reading that?

My WH wants/wanted to let it go also, no need to revisit the EA, it's over done, lets move on. Heck I want to do the same thing when I've messed up, but ya know rarely do I think that's possible. IMO that's just crazy especially with A's. I will warn you however be VERY careful of what information you need vs. want. You CANNOT unring the bell. Knowing details can cause more troubles for you in regards to reliving events, confusion, more hurt & pain.

So what do you NEED to know from WH?

I haven't posted much here lately as things have been going fairly well. I've been reading alot of older posts which have been so helpful. Thanks to Orchid and Mimi for bringing some of those up to active threads!

I 'might' even consider myself on the finally undertanding "MB" better. I say might because today is good day, tomorrow might not be! My emotions still have a tendancy to be on the rollercoaster. I'm trying very hard to keep prespective and count my blessings.

It really hit me yesterday MB is NEVER finished, it's a forever process. I really must still be in a fog somewhat, seems that I should have known that from the beginning! DUH!

It also came to mind that as much as I want guarantees in my M since the EA, there is no guarantee. However there NEVER WAS! I just innocently thought that something like this would never happen. Another DUH!

I'm pulling out my books again, going to re-read 5 love languages and HNHN. I'm praying WH will decide to read them also.

I pray that this bright new year will be insightful for me and that we can build a true mature intimate M.

More later as my DUH moments occur! I'm on a roll with those right now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi mvg, SL, Ace and everybody here:
Happy New Year to you all!

mvg: I'm so glad you had a good holiday and you sounded like you were in a good place now, speaking your truth and having a lot of personal growth also. Wish you best of luck in the new year...

I also read the threads Orchad linked for you and they are very helpful also.

I don't consider my latest episode to be all bad. I have told H what I felt when he didn't answer my question and I saw him doing all the amends. He must have felt so guilty.
I have been calm and caring as much as I can and he has been very caring also. I wrote him an email telling him how I felt and my confusions today from my work and I know he probably won't respond but I think that's ok with me now. I think I am getting stronger and less dependent on him emotionally and I see him getting more dependent on me emotionally. Anyway, I feel my peace is coming back and I am grateful for that. I still believe in our M, and I am learning ways to get it to the place I want it to be...

Anyway, just wish everybody a very happy new year and great progress ahead in terms of personal growth and marital recovery! And I want to thank you all for providing a place for me to vent and to learn. Thank you...

Snowy

Hello ladies!

mvg, it sounds like you are learning to focus on your stuff, state your needs, and let his reaction/decisions be his to own. That's a good thing.

Since I talked to PWC about letting him go, FINALLY letting him go, his decisions, his reactions, I have felt so much better.

Since this conversation I've seen a bit of a shift in PWC's nature. If I'm not in the room with him, off reading, posting, or watching TV, or just sitting quietly, he seeks me out. He used to completely ignore me. It's an interesting switch, to say the least. He still isn't very touchy, feely, but I've let that go. What happens as a result, well, happens. We'll see.

I think he 'gets' it a bit more with every conversation. I'm not being judgmental when I say he is very self-absorbed, not in a narcissistic way, but in a focal sort of way. He can't see beyond his 'stuff', but isn't really dealing with it either.

Again, what happens as a result, happens. I've said all that I can, and I'm STILL doing what I can. I STILL give when I wanna, and take really good care of myself, treat myself, love myself, soothe myself.

Something that Orchid says regularly finally clicked with me. PWC taught me how to live without him, by his actions. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for me, but it is a bit of a detriment to our M. On the flip side, he can't seem to live without me, or SOMEBODY else. Being alone is not something I see him being very good at. It's not something we humans should do for long periods of time, but I think it's healthy to learn how to take care of yourself. Meh, that's a topic for a whole other thread.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I'm still learning. I'm also done with our old dynamic, and glad for it. That doesn't mean our M is doing great. I feel for him. I can see he is trying, but not really doing the HEAVY stuff. He's at a point where the heavy stuff is all that is left. He has saved all the tough stuff, that leads to intimacy, for when I've let go of the rope. Hopefully, we'll see a shift coming soon.

I'm not holding out great amounts of hope that PWC will turn around quickly, I just hope it's enough and soon enough that I am still there.

He's about to have a very rude awakening, taking care of both myself and our son. It's going to be a lot of work.

Hi Snowy & SL!
Snowy, I'm glad you are starting to feel peace and growing stronger for yourself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Something you said stopped me dead in my tracks..."He must have felt so guilty." WOW you said that so sympathically and I can feel your feeling bad for him feeling guilty. I hadn't really thought of WH as FEELING so guilty, the pain in that statement. Powerful. Maybe the guilt is holding them back. I hope they can come to grips with it so they can move forward too.

SL I'm trying very hard to focus on my stuff! I'm glad you are making headway with YOURSELF inregards to PWC. I know what you mean about the 'heavy' stuff...maybe it's a man thing....I don't get it with them sometimes. But after reading Snowy's post...maybe alot has to do with guilt, I dunno.

I know you only have a few more days more before your surgery. My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your family. I pray that you will be safe, sound and healed with this, and that your PCW will care for you and your son as he should and be grateful you are in his life. Please let us know that you are ok when you can. (((take care SL)))

Sl just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you and your upcoming surgery.

SL:
I wish you best of luck on your tomorrows operations. Remember we are thinking of you and praying for you...

mvg:
I think guilt and shame play a huge part in my H's not able to open up. Plus he doesn't feel safe and he has great fear that I might leave some day. You would think with those fear, he should do whatever he needs to do to help me heal, but he just doesn't. He tries very hard using his own way though. His love language is service and financial security. He provides as much service as he can to me and the kids nowadays. With a very demanding job and 14 hour days ( 1.5 hour commuting each way to the city ), he manages to help me with kids work and house work sometimes and does a whole lot during weekends. He provides great financial security to us and has been providing us with more family vacations and home remodeling, etc after Dday.
Those do help and I do apprecaite them, but it just feels not enough sometimes. And his not willing to answer my questions is setting us back very often and he is aware of that, but still he is not willing to do it.

Sometimes I feel that he is living in a miserable state. He only feels happy when I am in good mood. And he just can't take initiatives. I feel bad for him sometimes. But there is something in me that is pulling me away from my love and compassion for him, and that's causing a lot of turmoils in our recovery all these months.

I am learning to be calm and patient. I realize that I can't force or control him in any way and I am trully getting that. I just need to make up my own mind and stick to my own plan and I seem to have trouble doing that still. But believe me, I was even worse before. So I do see progress in myself, although it comes so slow...

I will keep loving, but making my feelings known to him. I won't repeat myself too much and I will control my AOs and LBs. Other things are just out of control for me.

I do still love my H. That's what keeps me going.

Ok, enough rambling again. Have a nice day everybody.

Snow

Snow, I can understand the way you feel. I too have felt that even with all that 'he' does, it isn't enough. Maybe because he's not meeting your most important ENs?

Question for your questioning mind...do you want to know more of the how could this have happened type questions or details of the A, when, where, how often, his emotions with that?

GOtta run...darn...keep on keeping on...you'll make it!
(((SNOWY)))

Yesterday was the last day of hunting season! YEA!!! Some how this feels like a point where I'll find out (finally) where my WH's feelings for me really are. His hunting time has IMO really interfered with our starting on recovery.

Thansk mvg.
I need to clear my mind more to understand what kind of questions I need answers for. Actually I know the most facts. My H was very willing to answer all the questions when he was determined to leave, which lasted only two weeks after Dday (his confession). After he came back and we started to rebuild, he started to actually shut down.
I have some facts that I don't know and I want to start from there. And then expend that to how this could have happened type of question.
From our daily interaction and caring about each other and from activities with friends and their family, I know H feels very differently about what he did, and he hasn't been justifying his actions lately. And he seems to do all other kind of things to compensate for what he did, showing that he knows what he did was wrong. But he just wouldn't talk about it at all. And his way of healing is to try to forget about it all and wishing me to do the same.
We will see. I have been taking harder stand lately in this and what he is doing is a little withdrawal and then full force meeting my other needs.
Yes, my most important ENs, which are affection and openness of his feelings are not being met, so I feel that what he has been doing is not enough.

mvg, I'm glad that you will have more time with your H since the hunting season is over. I find that spending time with each other more plays a huge role in marital healing. Even though we still have a long way to go, I find that after spending time with each other and caring about each other, we grow closer and closer and I hope gradually we will have a little opening that we can get into each other's soul again and we will go deeper from there...

Snow

Yes, my most important ENs, which are affection and openness of his feelings are not being met, so I feel that what he has been doing is not enough.


Snowy, I hope your WH will start to move forward in the H&O areas. I'm not really sure either how to convince/get them to see/ whatever accomplish that. My WH does the same type of thing as yours. Some times it feels like beating my head against a wall.

I know it's been stated many times here that by meeting their most important EN's many WS's will emulate that and start to meet yours.

There are alot of times I feel like my WH is so determined to sweep this under the rug, that he forgets that 'could' happen alot faster IF he met my EN's sincerely & enthuastically.

I know 'we' can't change them but I sure do wish I could. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe a vet will see this and give us both advice.

Take care.

Looking for some wisdom here...

I feel like I'm stuck. Our M is stuck. I feel like my H is either stuck or this is as good as it gets. I don't see any more progress, actually I can see things slipping a bit. Nothing to do with EA but with US. I don't know how to redirect, we're falling back into the same ole same ole behaviors.

WH thinks things are going good. I don't. They aren't bad they just aren't moving forward. He isn't doing any more to meet my EN's. I'm still meeting his. I'm getting tired of waiting. I'm getting tired of talking and then no progress.

HOW do you handle these times?

Hi mvg,

I saw that you occasionally posted on the Renter's/Buyers Support Thread?

It was difficult to me to grasp the concepts the first time, but I've been re-reading it and things are starting to click. You might check it out again.

My DH and I are overcoming a huge challenge (non-A) that is actually bringing us closer together in a way I never imagined. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but it sure feels good to be so valued. Hopefully you guys can accomplish something similar without the challenge.

Ace

P.S. Here is a link to an article by Dr. Harley that Mark linked on that thread: Renter/Buyer/Freeloader

Mvg,

I don't have advice for you; I just want to say that I can empathize with you. I get that feeling (not so much now) and have gotten to the point of detachment whenever I start feeling that way (the "no progress way"). It almost feels like I'm on ADs again. I'm not sure if this is just a normal part of recovery, but it sure is giving me some rest from emotional turmoil.

mvg,


Ah, but some of that stuff can change. You just have to change the dance a bit.

Things sort of go like this, he does A, you do B etc, etc. Those are where the old patterns come back. Now the next time he does A, you do C. That is how you change the pattern. The hard part is figuring out how to change the pattern and what to change it to. It's stuff to think about ahead of time. Think about an area where you are stuck and think about what you will do differently when he does A.

The first time you change the dance steps on him he might get a little confused, but keep it up because eventually he hopefully want to learn the new steps, too.

For my DH and I the key was really learing to communicate and being comfortable doing it.

Have you told your H what you said about meeting your needs will help you have a better chance of moving on. If not, do so.

My DH absolutely hated to talk about anything, but now I can get him to talk w/o "forcing" him.

I had to learn to make him feel comfortable and acknowledge his feeling.

If I wanted to talk about something I knew he didn't I would say. "Honey, I know you hate to talk about this stuff, but I need to work something out and would appreciate your help." (or something like that).

Or if during our conversations he looked uncomfortable, angry, sad or whatever I would acknowledge his feeling by saying, "Honey, I can see this is making you angry and I am sorry for that would you rather we wait and talk later."

I know I have recommended this book before on here. It's an easy read and easy to apply his ideas. It's called "Communication Miracles for Couples," by Johnathan Robinson.

For us it was learing to communicate that led to many positive changes.

LC

mvg,

I have another question. Has your H read any of the Harley books?

LC

Thanks everyone. I read Ark's 'be still' IF ONLY! ugh

I know communication is still a problem for us. I know I probably haven't made it a safe place for WH. NOT that I throw things in his face, but more like I've discounted his feelings. Shame on me, shame shame shame. I am working on it. I need to listen better. LC, I will look for that book.

I have told him how I feel about my EN's not being met. Nothing changes. Unfortunately, I've told him many times...I guess in my mind I'm thinking ok I wasn't clear enough, or he didn't hear me....wrong, he's heard me. He's told me he gets it. But still nothing. Maybe my biggest 'mind' problem is I can't figure out WHY and he says he doesn't know. So here I sit trying to figure it out and my head hurts. So where do I go from here?

mvg,

I like what Ace said about the Buyers/Renters. When I read that section in FIL/SIL it made so many things makes sense to me. Print that stuff out and ask him if he would be willing to read it together with you. IMO, it's all in the presentation if he will willingly agree or feel forced.

Approach him and say, "I feel like we are stuck, I am hoping we could go over this together and maybe reading it together will help me figure out why I am feeling the way I do."

Avoid using the word "you", instead use "I", "me", "we" He will feel attacked and get defensive if you use the word "you". For example if you did say, "You really aren't doing your part in meeting my needs so I think it would be a good idea for you to go over this information about Buyers/Renters."

Most likely he will only feel attacked and not listen.

Both examples I posted ask him to do the same thing. Which one do you think would get a better response?

LC

H hasn't read any of harley's books. HNHN is sitting there collecting dust. He says ok I'll read them but anything and everything gets done before that...and meeting my EN's!

I casually mentioned him reading HNHN again last in in response to him asking me to read an article he was interested in. I'll see if he follow thru this time.

He's NOT big on reading together but I will try. I do use "I" statements...definately didn't want to appear I was attacking/blaming him.

I need to go back and reread buyers/renters again. I was having a very hard time distinguishing the differences. I 'thought' I was a buyer, but apparently I'm a renter. THAT was a RUDE awakening. So I need to go back and slowly and delibrately read over that again until it makes sense.

Thanks for hanging with me on this.

mvg, I just wanted to pop in and say hi.

It's the same old same old, isn't it? Maybe start taking the approach that your FWH isn't going anywhere, that he's there to stay. Loosen up! Don't think about touching him, talking to him, laughing OUT LOUD, JUST DO IT.

Speak up, not just about EN's, but about ANYTHING, EVERYTHING. The weather, your broken fingernail, that joke that you heard at work, the bills and your ideas to get back on track. Start with the small stuff, throwing in big stuff now and then.

As always, take care of yourself, shift that focus onto you. Let him take care of you, now and then, too.

I'll say what I said to sdguy, control is an illusion.

I'm not being lavished in hugs and kisses, but I'm being lavished with attention, because I'M ASKING FOR IT; little niceties, favors and such. Really, I'm just asking for tasks to be done. Once I'm healed, I plan on continuing this, showing my NEED for my husband. He needs to be needed; part of that machismo, manly, man, admiration thingy.

Much of this time in our recovery, I've been asking for him to step up, but I have often wondered when I was going to step up, myself; really drop that rope and free myself from my own little cage. I have now. Given, I have very good reason to be buyerly, with the surgery and recuperation, but you can find any excuse to just take those first steps.

Not only do I kiss and hug him, but I go get what I need, too. I ask for kisses, or act coy and point at my puckered lips and get my kiss. I'm fine with that. I ask for him to scratch my back. I ask him how do I look. I'm not fishing, just talking, opening up the lines.


Anyway, take what you want, leave what you don't. Just $.02 from a drugged out friend...

Hey drugged out friend! I'm so surprised and HONORED that you took time to check in on ME while you are starting your recovery! GET BACK IN THAT BED and take care of YOU! (((THANK YOU SL)))

You might be right, maybe I just need to change how I think about I need and how he gives it. I was reading someone's post yesterday about giver & taker...and of course the brain cannot recall who or when...I have been the main giver in this R and he the taker. That's the dianamic I would like to change. My taker is getting very impatient since the EA.

Most everyone here wants/needs to get rid of whatever the OP came into contact with, gifts, furniture, etc. I WANT what he gave the OW. He gave her the words of affection, romance, dreams...the VERY things that for so many years I've BEGGED for. IMO if his words belonged to anyone it was ME.

So my conundrum (sp) is he's been very specifically told/asked/begged this. His response I hear you. But NO follow thru. So HOW do I reconcile myself to either he's not going to/can't/whatever? Am I wrong to feel what I NEEDED the most he gave to someone else and won't for me that there is a reason? It's killing me to think I'm either going to have to settle for what he will do and never admit WHY he can't meet my needs, or end this. I don't think I want to settle for second best (if even that).

Our 30th anniversary is coming up next month. I dread it. I don't want to 'celebrate' a mile stone that right now I feel is false.

Well enough rant....thanks friends.

Dr. Harley has 2 books which might be helpful:

Giver/Taker and His Needs/Her Needs.

What I learned from HNHN was HOW to communicate with H. Males hear and see different from us females. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In G/T, I learned the g/t needs t/b balanced. So my Giver took a rest and I learned t/d less and got more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He doesn't wait on me hand and foot and I don't wait on him that way either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ..... and that's ok. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

L.

Orchid said things a bit more succinctly than me. Find your confidence, mvg. When I said drop the rope, that was my way of saying that you aren't balanced right now. You're pulling. Give him a chance to start tugging. I think Giver/Taker would be a great book for you. Heck, it's great for us all, really.

Watch the movie "Fried Green Tomatoes" and think about Kathy Bates' character and how she began to gain confidence. Her attitude was that she still loved her H deeply, and did take care of him, but she cared a great deal about HERSELF, too. Instead of wrapping herself up in celophane and waiting by the door (which is not such a bad idea) which her husband wasn't responsive to, she began exercising and visiting with friends, while still taking care of her home and hearth. Confidence. Her husband noticed.

Hopefully, that made some sense...

Thanks Orchid and SL (and why are you out of bed again??????)

SL if you pop back by again, how are you feeling???? Is it getting easier day by day yet?

I think the giver/taker is what I need to read and apply. I do need some balance. I have HNHN, great book.

I'm doing well today, mvg, thanks for asking. I've been up and about alot today, mostly just around the house, but I have a bit more energy. I took a luxurious nap this afternoon, too, so don't you worry 'bout this girl. I'm taking it easy, but giving myself a little push every day.

I am about 8-10 hours between pain meds now, and don't have a lot of pain in between, mostly just stiffness.

It does seem to be getting easier day by day, but I have read of people with this surgery backsliding a bit, or something slipping out of place or other tragedy, so I'm following docs orders and hoping for the best recovery. I've always had very short healing times, but this is pretty major stuff, so I'm following the rules, kinda like MB, huh?.

Hi SL:

I'm so glad to hear you are doing so good in all front!!

I'm doing the same thing: giving and asking for hugs and kisses. And I ask for him to scratch my back also <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. It's a great ice breaker sometimes. H asks the same thing when he wants a little more attention.

Keep up the good work and you are truly an inspiration for all of us here...

Snowy

mvg:

I can understand your frustration about things not progressing as fast as you want. I'm in the same shoes.

My H never reads any books and he tells me he won't. It's so frustrating. But he is changing so much of his behaviors that I have to take his effort very seriously even if it's not my way. We also still have communication problems, but we are better than we were pre-A in that department. Before we wouldn't mind attacking each other and was horrible in being considerate at all about each other feelings. Now things are changing and we become more caring and loving for sure.

But those don't seem enough because the A is just such a monster and it destroys so much things. As I read in the recovery board, for some, the normal peace and quiet can be a trigger, sending signals that things might stay the way it is and FWHs are content about what things are. But we want more. And I notice that I keep wanting more in this process. Thinking back 6 months, I couldn't believe we would be exchanging hugs and kisses and we would have great SF each week...But now I have them and I still want more, and I want deeper intimacy...

I don't know. Maybe looking back and counting our achievements will help us keep the perspective. Maybe being stuck is only our perception and our FWHs are keeping up and doing their share and we just stopped noticing them...

I think we are here for the long run and we can climb the mountain one step at a time and the view on the top is just as beautiful when we get there no matter how slow...

Remember to take care of yourself in the mean time. I find that when I am in a good mode, H is so much happier and we do great together. When I become moody, things slide down.

Just some of my random thoughts...

Snowy

This speaks volumes, doesn't it ladies? When I am upbeat and happy, contented, PWC is too, and he smiles and laughs. When I am down, he is ON GUARD, with every good reason, for fear that I may burn the shirt on his back, I guess (just kidding, girls). But think of it, being on guard all of the time, waiting for the question/answer session that they fear is coming.

I say, let's try to achieve intimacy by making things quiet and safe. Discuss what concerns you sort of matter of factly, keeping those emotions at bay when you can, but open up when it's calm and quiet.

Do you ladies remember how effortless it was to just chit chat with your husbands? I do, and that is what I'm trying to achieve, in mind, body and spicket (oops, I mean spirit).

Our lives together will never be the same, but can be better in many, many ways. This is my new direction, and this requires me dropping my own old ways and old ways of thinking, communicating and such.

I say, keep gliding along, and try not to OVERTHINK your husbands or their motives. I think it's not nearly as sinister in their heads as we might think, probably not sinister at all. They are fumbling, just as we are.

Now, I still don't get why they (our FWH's) won't follow a plan. Could be fear, stubbornness, or something else. HOWEVER, if we follow and plan and they walk along side of us, they are, in essence, following the plan to some extent. Food for thought.

Thanks ladies! Hey Snow where ya been? Enjoying life I hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SL sooooooooo glad to hear you are progressing with your recovery.

I say, keep gliding along, and try not to OVERTHINK your husbands or their motives. I think it's not nearly as sinister in their heads as we might think, probably not sinister at all. They are fumbling, just as we are.

Now, I still don't get why they (our FWH's) won't follow a plan. Could be fear, stubbornness, or something else. HOWEVER, if we follow and plan and they walk along side of us, they are, in essence, following the plan to some extent. Food for thought.

From Snow But those don't seem enough because the A is just such a monster and it destroys so much things. As I read in the recovery board, for some, the normal peace and quiet can be a trigger, sending signals that things might stay the way it is and FWHs are content about what things are. But we want more. And I notice that I keep wanting more in this process.

I hear ya both. I'm trying to take care of ME. I can't get my brain to stop...I can't be still.

Most of my concern is, I've voiced my desires for YEARS even before the EA. I guess the EA really has put this on
the front burner for me. I don't think he's going to meet them. I'm panicing...I don't want to continue to live like this. I NEED what I NEED. I'm starting to resent him and his lack of commitment to recovery and to me. I would love to get down to the knitty gritty of WHY but I'm coming to the conclusion I'll never know why. So that leaves me either stay and be companions with benefits, or go. Internal fight, so many things to consider.

I want to thank you all for letting me vent my frustations and trying so hard to give me helpful advice. I deeply appreciate the support. I know it might not appear so, BUT I do consider what you each say. (((MB FRIENDS)))

mvg,

I'd hazzard a guess that we ALL feel like this on and off, throughout recovery. I know I have and will in the future. I read Snow's recovery thread and at month five, she and hubby were exactly where I am with PWC( and it seems you are).

PWC still does not intitiate touch, I do. He has some bad days, too, just like me. He's depressed, and withdrawn. I don't let that set my mood anymore. HE has to learn how to take care of these things.

Maybe stop focusing solely on the marriage, and do a major shift to yourself. Go to the makeup counter, get into an exercise regimen, do things you like, inviting him along. Again, follow the Harley principles, WHILE taking great care of yourself.

Consider that confidence is very attractive, to most.

mvg, do you have the book "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie? If not, I would advise you to get it. You will learn a lot about yourself in daily affirmations. It's not a book you have to read all at one time either, you can skip around if you like and focus on your major issues.

Hi ladies:

How are you today??

mvg: I read here almost daily but don't post often. My job is quite demanding and I'm also thinking about a career change. Plus I have two little ones 9 and 7 at home who constantly need my attention. My H works long hours...That leaves me so tight on time. I just can't post as often as I want to.

I'm doing just fine. H is loving and attentive lately. During these times when I feel his love, I don't have an urging need to bring up his A or let it hurt me inside. Maybe one day, I can truly feel peace and find forgiveness in my heart.

I tell you I have the same thoughts about kicking H out many many times. I even did once. I asked him to find a hotel to stay one day because of an A related argument we had during the day. I sensed his entitlement that day and was so furious and hurt. He actually stayed in that hotel that night. I think he wouldn't want to do that again after that. He was very down and sad when he came back the next night and I'm sure he realized how much he loved and needed his family that night. So it's not a bad thing in our case since I never did plan B. But I also realized that night that it's not him that I wanted to kick out, it's the pain inside me that I couldn't tolerate anymore and I thought by kicking him out I could feel better, but I didn't. I still loved my H dearly and by him leaving, nothing could be solved. So now we are together and rebuilding again.

SL, thank you for reading my thread. Yes, my H was just like yours for a very very long time. And yes, they can change. My H feels like a changed man now, although not completely the way I want him to become <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But I know it's his journey and I only play a helping role in his growth. He becomes very tender and gentle most of the time. He buys me a lot of stuff and he spends a lot more time with kids and me now. I wanted him to completely be open to me with his feelings, but he can't do that yet. But I see things are loosen up little by little in that front also with me not pushing anymore.

Hey, by the way, Victoria Secret is running a sale and I bought a lot of stuff last night. I tried those on in front of hubby before bed and boy he even blushed a little <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

SL, I ordered the book you recommended. I think I'm a codependent all along and have been taking care of hubby like his mom. And I need to change. I can see H likes my changes so far and I need to find inspirations to keep up...

Ok, it's getting too long and I need to go back to my work now. Just remember, no matter if I post or not, I'm reading and learning...

Snow

Y'all are the best! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Snow, thanks for posting with your limited time. You help to show what could be, and that our sitch's are similar. It helps to rebolster our hope and gives me ideas of how to keep on keepin on.

mvg, same to ya, lady!