Sorry, this ended up being one part rant, one part message to my FWW:


The morning of my d-day, my wife was puking for about 3 hours, before work and half of the morning. I witnessed some of it with my own eyes. It had been happening for a couple weeks, and my W was miserable.

It was natural...after all, she was 6 weeks pregnant with our second child.

I walked in on her and OM, naked on my couch, a little before noon that same day.

Fast forward 17 months. Every time I hear "I'm too tired", "I have a headache", or ANY other excuse to not have sex, I feel like going into a rage, because none of those so-called "ailments" come close to the misery her morning sickness was causing her...but the "adrenaline rush" she got from the excitement of cheating (her words) helped her get over it long enough to do the deed with someone else, on my couch.

Six weeks pregnant. INTENTIONALLY pregnant.

Did I mention the sex was unprotected, and that the entire pregnancy was ruined for both of us...and that only after paternity was determined did I accept her as my own? Until then, I wanted her to abort the pregnancy (I kept that to myself). I wanted nothing to do with the baby, and if she hadn't been mine I would've turned my back on her and the rest of my family. No way was I going to raise a living, breathing trigger.

All this after 18 months of hard work on my part to be a better husband and father, which she acknowleged many times before and after d-day. She was involved in her A that whole 18 months, too...including during our 1st try at MC, mainly to deal with MY insecurity and jealousy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Why should I tolerate "not tonight, I have a headache" EVER again? What's wrong with expecting her to find some way to find her "adrenaline rush", like she did with OM?

If d-day had not been d-day, and I tried to have sex with her during that lunch hour, she would've laughed in my face at the very least. It likely would've turned into an ugly dispute for even suggesting such a thing. How could I be such an insensitive ****, right?

Also, it's not good enough to be "willing". I expect enthusiasm and desire...at least as much as there was with OM. Screw that, MORE than there was with OM. To think that I will settle for less is making a BIG mistake on her part.

I've been told:

"It's only sex...it's not the most important thing in the world!"

"You're just trying to get your d_ck wet. That's all you care about!"

I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander. She and OM risked everything...their families, their health...for "just sex". I do mean "just sex". No gifts, no dates no affection, little conversation. She didn't even know where he lives, and didn't care to.

So, excuse ME if I put MY d_ck first. It's hot and exciting when OM is putting HIS d_ck above all else. Well, get used to it, honey, because if you don't attack me with the same vigor and eagerness, I will find someone who will. At least I've given you the ultimatum I wasn't lucky enough to receive from you.

Cheating men frequently have to "earn" their way back into their BS's pants...well, cheating women should, too. To continue to act like having sex with me is a gift you have deemed me worthy of? To expect ME, after what you've put me through, to jump through hoops, work around the house, and be Mr. Nice Guy in order to MAYBE get a quickie that night IF I initiate it, when OM just had to pick up a phone or send an IM? I say it should be that easy for me, too. I've earned it. If you don't think so...

F_ck you and the horse you rode in on. You are lucky I haven't tossed you aside like damaged goods, considering I feel like I'm licking a public urinal when I kiss you.

The choice is yours. If you think what you're giving me is plenty, good for you. I have news for you: I'm as young, hot-blooded, and potent as OM, who "wasn't getting enough at home".

Take that for what it's worth.

Krazy -

Sounds like you are still very angry, and I can't say I blame you. There aren't too many who are as honest as you about their feelings.

One of my top needs is SF too. My ex had an 4 year long affair, and it was strange because he was having problems (ED) BEFORE the affair. It was very uncomfortable to work through, and then he had an AFFAIR!!!! Now it ended and he wants to date again.

While we were married, I accepted that he was getting older and wasn't "young, hot-blooded, and potent" anymore. Now that we are divorced, I have no desire to hook up again. I'll find someone who is OLD, hot-blooded and potent.

How was the SF BEFORE the affair?

And by the way, he needed his Viagra throughout the affair with the OW who is 20 years younger. LOL.

I would imagine that the few people here that have admitted to having ED wouldn't find the humor in this physical disease.

Krazy, what you are going through is resentment...I've been there. It is really no0t fair to YOU to let this stuff eat at you. I understand your pain...but really, how is it benefiting your life NOW.

"I would imagine that the few people here that have admitted to having ED wouldn't find the humor in this physical disease"

It IS a physical disease, and for most can be readily remedied. My problem is with folks (men and women) who blame their partner for their sexual problems, have an affair, and then come crawling back.

I agree with Krazy. After an affair the SF at home better be darn good.

Me too...but it is a two edged sword. If it is too good...and that is different than before...well...where did the new tricks/enthusiasm come from?

The affair can't be undone, but the WS CAN find some enthusiasm somewhere. Otherwise it is like a slap in the face to the BS. Bad enough that there was infidelity, but to come home and have "lost desire" wouldn't make the cut for me. He better be as ready as an 18 year old!!!!!

Terminal cancer isn't funny, either...unless OM gets it.

Then, it becomes the funniest damn thing I've ever seen.


By the way, SF before the A was pretty good, until I realized there was more on the menu as it relates to quantity...everything I was getting during the A PLUS everything OM got.

Now I know she can happily put out more than I was getting during the A. I expect it.

Would I try to force her? Of course not. That's not what I want. I want her to do it and like it, and I shouldn't have to play Mr. Nice Guy for 6 months to get to that point.

It was easy for OM, it should be as easy for me. It will be, or we won't make it. I didn't create this mess.

Recovery does not involve one person losing and another person winning.

You may be right that she owes you...

but demanding that she put out and be enthusiastic is not exactly a pragmatic way to get what you want....

in addition to the fact that it damages HER and makes her feel like an object.

This is your wife. She screwed up. But YOU choose to take her back, which means that there MUST be something redeeming about her.

Women have sex when they feel loved. An angry, bitter man, demanding the best sex of his life because he is OWED is not even a remotely attractive prospect.

If you choose recovery, you OWE her to be responsible for your own contributions and participation in a NEW relationship.

What have you done to make her feel SAFE to have sex with you?

Being up for the challenge (pardon the pun) and being INTO the challenge are two separate things. What would you suggest a couple do if they are dealing with one of the two NOT wanting sex with the other? It's not that cut and dry, folks.

Do you divorce, splitting your family up, or do you stick it out, and work toward regaining that WANT from your WS to be your stud (or filly)? Do you blame him/her for their not being into it, or do you work toward making the environment better, safer, for them to open back up again?

Then the question is, how long do you go about putting the effort in before you give up?

This thread has struck a cord with me, due to my FWH's lack of enthusiasm toward any SF. It's not MY top EN, but I know it has been HIS top EN, in the past. It's frustrating, to say the least. IT pisses me off, to say more.

I don't think any health issues are funny, but I am not going to try to preach to you about how to think. I have those types of thoughts in my head from time to time, about OW#1, I just don't say them.

Recovery takes at least 2 years before things are really on track.

There are no guarantees with recovery either....just like plan A and Plan B - you go into it with personal responsibility and you be the best YOU that you can be, that's all you can control.

When you can look yourself in the mirror and KNOW that you've done everything you can possibly do, and you are at PEACE with walking way (not in anger, never in anger), then you are ready to cut ties.

Thank you very much for a hearty Monday Morning laugh!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

krazy

has your wife apologized to you...
and
do you believe her...

also do you believe she has disclosed the truth...
an affair with dangerous risky behavior....ie pregnant unprotected ...doesn't know where he lives...is that true..or do you think she is lying...

(was/is the OM married...)

ARK

SL:

Struck a cord with me too. It seems ironic that we (I mean people in general) could do so many things for practically a stranger, but can't bring themselves to do these things with the people that have sworn to love forever, and do nice things for them on a daily basis.

I am not sure why it is that the WS finds SF difficult with a BS, but it must be common. Maybe the excitement is gone, maybe it has to do with guilt, I don't know.

One conversation I had with my spouse several months ago ran along these lines:

I don't want to be policed.

I didn't want to be in the position where I am telling you right and wrong, but since you did something that was wrong, you put me in the position that I couldn't accept what you were doing and had to correct it.

So now maybe she feels like I am the bad authority figure, and that is the problem. I don't know. Other people know more than me.

S had problematic relationship with father while growing up, which ended up with her leaving home early. It has only gotten better in the last few years. I know that doesn't help.

I have a best friend that I've known for about 22 years. She and her husband had been married for about 2 years when things started falling apart between them. She had an affair at work. I don't remember anymore how he found out, but he did. She was extremely remorseful. They split up. She moved home to her mother's. He moved home to her mother's after a couple of weeks. They reconciled. But you know what? He changed.

He demanded sex whenever and however he wanted it. He thought he "deserved" it for what she put him through. She thought so too. She'd drop on her knees and give him a BJ at his order, because that's what she had done for the OM. He ABUSED her for another 12 years...demanding sex whenever and however he wanted, and not taking no for an answer. They even became swingers for about 5 years, not that she wanted to, but because he insisted.

He never "forced" her. He never "raped" her. But he certainly forced her with threats of leaving. He called her a "cum gurgling gutter slut" to her face. For years. And she thought she deserved it. Because she had the affair.

14 years after they married, he left her for a girl at work. Later he revealed that he had had many affairs throughout their marriage (6-10), but it was all HER fault...if she hadn't done what she did, he wouldn't have felt entitled to do whatever the heck he wanted.

I call BS.

You have no right to DEMAND anything. If this is the way you plan to live the rest of your marriage then do yourself and your wife a favor and get out. Your entitlement will destroy her. Your entitlement will destroy you. Your entitlement will destroy your marriage. Do yourself and your wife a favor, save her the abuse, and just leave. If this is the way you plan to treat the woman you love for the rest of your life, then you are better off alone.

Call the Harley's and see if they agree with your plan to insist that your wife give you SF whenever you want because you deserve it. I'm sure you already know what the answer is.

BR, thanks, that was what I was getting at.

I am not perfect, and don't expect to go through this WITHOUT any anger, but my anger usually stems from me EXPECTING something without doing the work on my end. I remember feeling EXACTLY like believer and Krazy do; I've just come to find that there are TWO of us here, and I can't make the one that's NOT me do anything he doesn't want to.

I'm finding that it does take effort on my part to entice my husband. It did before the A, why would that be different now?

Our world is changed; my FWH is changed. I just don't think you can turn these things on a dime; at least, not in my experience, which is obviously limited at this point.

"You are lucky I haven't tossed you aside like damaged goods, considering I feel like I'm licking a public urinal when I kiss you."

I can't imagine any woman who isn't a masochist wanting to SF someone who feels this way about her. Just sayin'.

There is no entitlement to LBs in recovery, no matter how badly the WS has behaved.

This sounds like someone holding the A over their spouses head, dangling it, to get the 'guilty' sex. That's my point, unless my FWH is into it, I'm not pushing. It could be guilt, it could be that he needs to become more attracted to me, that I do have to woo him in some way. It isn't fair, but neither was the A.

This is just how it works, and if you don't have the [email]b@lls[/email] to really deal with the problems and SHOW YOUR LOVE toward your FWS, then you will fail.

Cathy, that story that you told made my stomach churn. I would hate to be the person doling out that kind of treatment. I'm glad I'm not that angry anymore. It is debilitating.

I've never demanded that from her. I've told her it's what I want. I haven't given her any ultimatums. I've informed her of my needs, and now I'm waiting for her to meet them.


Well, she ENJOYED being used like an object by OM. She liked it. Besides, walking in and seeing her with OM did a little damage to me, too, and I'm still willing to have sex. I'm not very sympathetic in that department.


Yes, she has redeeming qualities. We all do.


My wife barely even knew OM, and they both kept it that way on purpose. They both made it clear that they had no interest in getting divorced or moving beyond "just occasional sex". My W had absolutely ZERO emotional investment in OM. She does not need to feel an ounce of love to have and enjoy sex.

I'm not demanding anything or trying to force myself on her. I've told her what I want and need, and I've left it at that. She can either find a way to meet those needs or not. It's entirely her choice. Granted, our marriage may depend on her figuring it out, but it's still her choice.


Great...she crushes me and our marriage to the point that it must be discarded for a "new" relationship, only instead of a fun, exciting "new" relationship like she got to have with OM, I get to inherit a mess...all of the baggage of our "old" relationship with none of the fun of a "new" relationship.

She gets to go and have her fun for 3.5 years, and good old loyal hubby gets stuck with the same old, same old....IF I play nice and IF I am Mr. Sensitive.

The bottom line is that I owe her nothing more now than before the A, but she DOES owe me a helluva lot more now than before the A...and I'll be damned if I begin to pay up first.


What's safe about having unprotected sex with someone you barely know? That was a large part of the turn-on for her...that it was so risky.

She doesn't need to feel safe to have sex, obviously.

If anything, I should feel unsafe when we have sex, not her. I'm not going to try harder in the bedroom than I did before just because she went out and got some strange. I refuse.

Maybe I should just get a D. I have yet to see ONE WS who is willing to do 51% of the work...it's always gotta be 50-50.

I think that he is being brutally honest...and it's painful to hear.....

I think that this place should be safe enough to hear the ugly....

and not get caught up in the verbage.....
those are the word pictures of the feelings of how hurt and distraught he is...

how it kills his soul that his wife would do for another man and not for him.....

IF these are thoughts only...not in action.....then they need to be released and heard....

this not to say I am condoning abuse...
to act on these feelings in anger...is totally different then thinking them in ones head and not acting...
that's a whole different ball game....

and if that's what krazy is doing ...then it's wrong and she must leave...

BUT

if these are his feelings in word pictures...that's different....
and he has not expressed them to her...and if seeking an outlet....

theory and thought...are different from action and reality..

I personally doubt there's a man out there...(or a women) who wouldn't in theory like to have sex every time they wanted it...

that's nervanna...
eh?
doesn't equal demanding it all the time...
but one can still think it..

ark

That story is awful, but it doesn't remotely resemble my situation. I have not talked to her that way or treated her that way.

I DO think, however, that any WS should be willing to do anything with their BS that they did with OP.

To refuse to is the same as refusing to answer a question...it keeps something just bewteen WS and OP.

The bottom line is that I owe her nothing more now than before the A, but she DOES owe me a helluva lot more now than before the A...and I'll be damned if I begin to pay up first

that's the crux then..
that's the reality...

if you aren't willing to do anything...it will not work out...

sex is not a weapon....and healthy nurturing long term marital sex....can't be turned in to one...or the marriage is doomed....

it won't work because if the broader picture is a long marriage of mutual intimacy and respect..you can not establish unequal patterns and actions to ger there...

it won't ever be even...there will be
too much tally keeping
too much suspicion

that's not what an equal loving sexual relationship is...

if you don't meet her needs...
she won't meet yours...
and if she doesn't meet your needs
you won't meet hers....

see it takes two...all of it...
recovery takes two

marriage takes two..

I'm sorry

ARK

"I have yet to see ONE WS who is willing to do 51% of the work...it's always gotta be 50-50."

Oh please, I'm a FWS and I bend over backwards, I do 80% of the work towwards the marriage, I'm the financial provider, my H has no interest in SF (never has) I do all the housework, pay all the bills, etc. etc.

My marriage is good, and I screwed it up, so I SUCK IT UP.

You have no obligation to suck up whatsoever. You do have a choice to leave if you don't think things are fair. You are not responsible nor can you control anothers thoughts, feelings, and behavior.

But your comment about WS simply isn't true, or at least not when applied to FWS.

Honestly, there never is true 50-50; often times, one spouse carries the heavier weight. It's siutational. It's when the same spouse always carries the heavy weight that problems are created. The problem is that the spouse carrying the heavier weight is not asking for help, or is more than likely enabling the other.

This is a great place to vent, but when I vent, I always get great advice and put it into action.



And what if some of these things trigger the FWS, in a way that makes the experience unsavory for them? What then? Do you continue to demand these things, just because OM got them? Some of the things that she did may not be good for her, and may make her feel unsafe.

Krazy:

Your post reminded me of something that was on my mind a few days ago, and I believe to be true.

It isn't so much as the affair that is the insourmountable problem in marriages that have them, but the actions by both parties after the affair.

Which makes me wonder, even though I know that there are success stories, how many people really succeed at recovery once an affair happens. It seems to me that not only does it take a lot of work and patience, but that IC and MC would probably be necessary as well.

OK, now I've seen one.

krazy..

has your wife apoligized..
and do you believe she is sorry....

ark

hee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe your wife can get there, too. But there is no way to make her want it. As unfair as that is, it is your choice to stay or go.

Walking in my front door is a trigger for me. I am triggered every day, numerous times. My own daughter triggers me sometimes.

I don't use the back door, and I don't avoid my daughter.

krazy,

I was as mad as you were when I found out. I didn't want sex though....I would rather have castrated him. So I DO get exactly where you're coming from. But I realized something that you haven't yet. I told my H that "If what you did doesn't destroy our marriage, my reaction to it WILL. I realized that in that angry state....I had become a bigger obstacle to recovery than the infidelity.

I think it's okay that you feel this way right now. But I also think that you'll never have a good marriage again if you can't work through some of it. If your resentment and anger continues to rage in this way....you might as well let her go before you're both even more broken.

I think one of the things trapping there....is that there was apparently no real reason for the infidelity except selfishness and hedonism. That is exactly how it was for me too. It made the whole thing so much uglier....and everytime I looked at him....I saw this beautiful exterior with a rotten core.

I didn't know how to overcome those feelings....but I did know that unless I was convinced that my husband was capable of true remorse and had a conscience that was developed enough to withstand future temptation....that I didn't want him.

So, what I did....was part of the "conditions" for reconciliation included 6 months of individual counseling to explore his lack of ethics. 100 hours of community service to demonstrate his willingness to recognize the pain of others. And confession to his preist.

I feel for you....I do...but the path you're taking will become abusive and your marriage won't survive it. Please take care.

star*

IMHO, it is never going to happen. You aren't the OP and the A wasn't your M.

Krazy, I'll bet that almost every thought you're having about your FWW's A is one that my H had. (Minus the pregnancy and unprotected sex and lack of sex. But I didn't have a baby to care for, or to complicate the situation. Childbirth generally does not increase a woman's sex drive, rather the opposite)

My point, and I do have one:

You're angry. You're very, very angry. Life (and your wife) have treated you harshly. You're basically on schedule for your anger, maybe a little behind schedule due to the baby's birth.

I think that it's good that you're venting here, but be careful of venting too much, lest it take you over. If you can, channel your anger in positive ways, exercise is one. My H used to write a lot of things to me like what you have written. It came to the point that I absolutely DREADED seeing him coming at me with a piece of paper in his hand.

The way you describe your W's affair makes me wonder if she has experienced some sexual trauma in her past.

Life is not fair. You might start to think on that a bit. You have this sense that you have been wronged, and you want compensation. Well, compensation is fine, but it is clearly not going to come in the form of sex whenever/wherever/however you demand.

So start thinking of other, less demeaning forms of compensation, ones that will benefit your relationship as a whole, not just your portion of a piece of it.

Take care.

PK

I agree with ark - feelings, emotions, pouring out the brutal honesty, is necessary and thats what is going on here.

However.

Feelings are not facts.

And his feelings can and do taint his behavior and tone to his wife.

I know, because I've been there, done that.


Recovery is not fair and never will be. If FAIR is more important than recovery then you should be working on a divorce, not recovery. I say this with all sincerity. Not everyone can or should recover, and if what you really want and need is FAIRNESS, then recovery is not where your efforts should be.

If your goal is recovery, THIS attitude on your part will NOT achieve it.

It's about practicality here.

Krazy, I think you need to answer Ark's question about apologies. If your wife is NOT remorseful and doesn't get what she did to you....then your anger is understandable, albeit not productive.

And I recall from your previous thread...that you do NOT have from her the remorse you need. Your anger, in that respect, is normal.

But, if your goal is recovery, you can not control her, you can only control yourself. Your anger seeps into your treatment of her, creating lovebusters that drive a wedge.

Right, I agree that we don't avoid what is absolutely necessary, but we do protect one another as best we can. What happens when she puts a new move on you, and then you are triggered, wondering if that was learned with OM. Are you okay with that? It just doesn't sound very inviting to me, even as the BS, Krazy. It doens't sound like an intimate place. No matter what, you will probably both have triggers, but safety is paramount in that moment. Maybe your FWW doesn't feel like you would be safe.

Even if your wife didn't need the intimacy or love with OM, maybe she needs it from you, and if you aren't willing to give it, then you are at a stand still. Just speculating, of course, for you wife does not post here.

What I'm suggesting is that you BOTH work on recovery. If you sit and wait for the good things to come to you, without any effort on your part, that's not recovery. This is YOUR anger to deal with. Is there anything that your FWW is doing that's good?

Again, since you are the one posting, we will talk to you about your part.

That's for her to decide.

If the M and I aren't worth it to her, so be it. I will never demand it or try to force her.

I will not, however, live with the knowledge that there is some guy out there who did things with my W that I can't have anymore....and that the only reason I can't is because he did.

It'd be a shame to get D over sexual hang-ups, but it may come to that. To continue to not meet my needs is abusive to me...and it should be the easiest need to meet.

Even without an affair in the mix....sex can be the hardest emotional need for a wife to give a husband.

I would normally ask you, what did OM do to inspire your wife to be sexual, but I recall that in your situation, he didn't do much other than be available.

And for that reason, I think, your wife has some issues she needs to address before she can be HEALTHY enough to give you what you need.

Is she in IC to explore WHY she did what she did?

That is from YOUR perception... I don't think it's as easy as you think. Especially if she still senses so much anger from you.

Yes, she has apologized and appears to be remorseful.

Saying the right thing is easy. I do it all the time.

Actions speak louder than words.

yep you are right....

remorse is an action/s

exactly what have you told your wife...
and
exactly what actions are you waiting to see from her...

ARK

Krazy,

Your subject line must have hit a nerve because it seems to be getting a lot of attention.

What about BR's question about IC?

People are complex, and sometimes I think IC is the only way for some to realize why they think and feel the way that they do.

As I said above, I think most marriages that go through this would need to IC and MC to make it. Individual effort just doesn't seem to be enough, particularly when only one is putting forth the effort.

I've told her too much to recall, but above all else i've told her I still love her, I want our marriage to work, and I'd like to be able to forgive her eventually.

As far as actions I'd like to see from her, I can think of only two right now.

1. Not have an affair of any kind.

2. Approach me with the same care-free enthusiasm and wreckless abandon as OM. No specific acts or anything...it's all about the mind-set.

IC and MC are not possible right now.

My insurance paid for X number of visits in a lifetime. Unfortunately, we used most of those on MC in '05 to try and deal with my insecurity and jealously. I seemed convinced at the time that she was up to something, but I had no evidence, and no concrete reason to think so. I was made to think I was out of control and about to destroy my M.

Of course, that was right in the middle of her A.

We've read books and discussed things at great length over and over again.

Now, THIS statment I can hang on to. This is what I want to achieve in my M; this is what I once had with my FWH, and hope to have again. Even if the flesh were willing, my FWH's heart and mind are not in sync, and are not ready.

I wonder how much this has to do with me, and my approach, and my anger, and how much of this has to do with his willingness to explore his own inner workings.

I disagree. Its a practical impossibility.

You have already essentially said this. I believe in another thread you basically said that A's are nothing more than somebody being horny and wanting some strange. You have implied that A's do not involve underlying personality problems, no issues with EN's, etc, etc.

Well, since you are the BS, you can't ever be some "strange". Further, if A's are only for sex, then there would be no time during an A that the WS is not horny.

I'm not trying to be unsympathetic. I'm right there with you. I'd just suggest you stop trying to compare your M and your WW's actions in your M to her A and her actions during her A. You'll have a better shot at recovery, if that is what you want.

You're expecting her desire to be rational, but for some that is a foreign notion. There is healthy desire and unhealthy desire. She has chosen unhealthy desire. You perceive her actions as a rejection but a substantive relationship is more than just rutting. Do you feel you are competing with her diminished notions of healthy sexuality? Do you want her to replicate that conduct with you? Is that what you really want for yourself? I have a feeling that you want something more substantial--but it will take a great amount of work on herself before she is available to meet you there.

--Brix

Krazy,

FWIW, I understand the above quote completely and fully support your position. It appears that some of the female posters are having a problem with your "delivery", but from my perspective, I understand what you are trying to communicate and achieve.

GOOD LUCK to you in your quest.

Let's say I give up what I want. I bite the bullet, swallow my pride, whatever you want to call it.

What should she be expected to give up? Sex with OM?

I know life isn't fair, but we're not talking about life in general...we're talking about the specific actions of one person.

You need not bite the bullet or swallow your pride. You deserve what you need out of a relationship.

I just don't think the way that you are approaching this situation is going to get you what you want.

Krazy71, has your W ever expressed to you why she is not interested in performing those "specific actions" with you?

I don't know of any other way to approach it.

If I have to work extra hard in other areas and wait for who knows how long, then my need still isn't being met. It was very, very easy for OM. If I have to put out far more effort to accomplish the same thing, my need isn't being met.

I don't think any of us are suggesting you not get what you need from your wife. I wonder if what you need isn't to punish her, that's all. Do you really NEED these things or do you want them solely because OM got them?

Again, if you can only have things one way, that is your choice, and it is understandable to want what you want. I think the way in which you are saying it does smack of punishment, instead of pleasure for the BOTH of you.

It's not so much specific actions, it's a mind-set.

The reasons are the pregnancy, and the aftermath of the A. The baby is 9 months old now, and we're still on the roller coaster.

I understand her reasons. They are valid, and I won't dispute them. She has the right to react to any situation however she sees fit.

Nothing on her end will eliminate my need. I've been patient for 17 months.

I don't intend to punish her. I want her to enjoy it, just like she did with OM, or more.

To enjoy something with OM, then be unable to with me after all she's put me through, to not even try, is unacceptable.

If I was a BW insisting that my FWH hold my hand in public because he did with OW, I doubt anyone would see it as punishment.

Marriages are long complex relationships - a unique pattern of good and bad and stress and beauty and all that stuff that makes an incredible, UNIQUE, mosaic.

One of the attractions of an affair is that it is, seemingly, uncomplicated.

You will never have what she had with OM. Why? Because what they had was uncomplicated selfishness.

For women, that mosaic is a critical context to marital sex.

Reducing it to a specific position or action with an OM reduces your marriage to the level of an affair.

This takes TIME. And it just bloody SUCKS for the BS while going through it.

Your wife, if she does what she needs to do to recover HERSELF, will one day be able to give you BETTER than what she did with the OM.

But she is going to need a context that is not angry, bitter and punishing.

So, once again, I've got to put my needs on the back burner, "get over it", be a good boy and then MAYBE, somewhere down the road, I'll get some vague facsimile of my needs being met.

One would think it's easier to let loose sexually than to get over being betrayed and having your life annihilated, but that's just me.

I'm female and I totally agree with you. She should be willing to do whatever she can to meet your needs in that area. If that includes doing something with you and she used to do with OM I think she should.

(ducking from the 2/4's)

I'm not saying that I want to replicate positions, etc...we've already done everything 2 people can do together.

It all has to do with attitude and mindset.

Well, you can sit on your pity pot, crying about Not Fair! and She Owes ME....

Or you can take responsibility for your own recovery and let her work hers out.

If you gain, at her expense, your MARRIAGE loses.

You made the choice to go through recovery, so its up to you to participate by pulling your part.

What you WANT right now is normal, but NOT healthy or productive.

If you want selfish dirty sex - go get it - after you are divorced.

But demanding selfish dirty sex from your wife as your EN is going to destroy your claimed goal of recovery.

You THINK that it will make you feel better...but what it will do is HARM YOUR WIFE.

How does recovery work by demanding that she be harmed?

are you willing to go in to counseling with her over this...

I still don't understand what you are saying...

are you saying there are specific acts she did with om that she won't with you...
or
are you saying she does not instigate or is enthusiastic in being with you at all...

ark

I guess you have a point there. The thing is, holding hands is not equivalent to sexual intercourse, and to the many things that can be done together during intercourse, which is a VERY intimate act between husband and wife.

And, I've been rejected this way, in terms of not holding hands, all the way down to SF, and intercourse. I can't MAKE HIM LOVE ME. Again, as long as I'm holding up my end, I feel better . If my WH chooses to remain guarded, and at arm's length, this relationship will unravel nearly on it's own, and not because I didn't try.

Krazy, I totally understand how you feel, and don't AT ALL want to diminish the pain and anger you feel. It's a valid response. I just want for you to look at WHY you want what she gave OM, and not something of your own; something created between the two of you.

I am in a very rocky boat of my own with much the same reasoning as you have; that I have been LEVELED by the choices he's made, and now he's allowed to come home and not give me what I really need from him.

Your posts always hit me at the core, because I completely understand where this comes from.

I choose not to focus on the unmet ENs as much as those that are met. I continue to work on myself and hope for more intimacy. Time will tell.

There is no one here stating that you have to 'take it' or remain married to your FWW. I don't believe in waiting forever, but I do believe in giving it YOUR ALL.

I'm not demanding it from her. I've stated it as a need. I don't harp on it every day, or every week. I made a conscious effort to for 18 months before d-day to be better about meeting her needs, and I've done the best I can since then.

Her "dirty, selfish sex with OM" didn't harm her at all until she was busted. She liked it. Liked it enough to risk everything, including my health and the health of our unborn baby. Had I not caught her there would've been zero consequences for her actions.

With me, doing it voluntarily and enjoying it, it would be harmful?

"If I was a BW insisting that my FWH hold my hand in public because he did with OW, I doubt anyone would see it as punishment."

If the BS said, He should be willing to hold my hand and be grateful I even want to - holding his hand is like touching a public urinal...

then I think the response would be the same...

I think maybe what people are trying to point out is that your "attitude and mindset" of anger is getting in the way of what you really want.

Do you get that....

if she is trying to recover and is truely remorseful...

that what she did should HORRIFY her...

I am not a WS, but I can imagine as a woman, that I would be sick to my stomach and absolutely repulsed by acting with MY HUSBAND the way I did with OM.

No, not exactly.

But, consider that this is pretty close to the definition of investment. Doing something now, with the expectation of future returns.

But I believe you consider it to be a definition of sacrifice. Probably because you don't believe you will receive future returns.

Really the only difference between the two (investment and sacrifice) is what you expect to happen.

Nobody is advising that you sacrifice, they are advising you to invest. It's a risky, sometimes painful, and counterintuitive way to deal with A's.

Krazy,

Why would you want to settle for what OM got? All he got was an empty, lust-filled, unethical...lay. Don't you want the kind of sexual experience that isn't based on hedonism, but on love and commitment? I agree with the poster who said you don't sound like you need sex....you sound like you need to punish. You need to control. You need to exert power over her. You need to make her pay....with her flesh. This is unhealthy for you.

Krazy:

I knew this thread would get a lot of attention but didn't count on the number of 2X4's you would get!

I think that one of the reasons that this is such a charged issue is that SF means so much more to a man than most people think, and to be betrayed by a spouse having an affair and to be continually rejected by a spouse can be devastating, maybe just as devastating.

What complicates it is that SF isn't just a physical need, it is a connection, and a validation and acceptance of who you are as a husband.

When you continually reject a spouse's needs, it is as if they are saying, "I no longer find you attractive, I no longer respect you. I am not grateful for the things you do because I don't like how you do them or I don't think that you do enough."

Has to hurt.

For those that are making light of Krazy's desire, let me ask you this. If his spouse had enjoyed conversation with her OM, would you be judgmental in his desire to have good, fun conversation with his spouse?

Of course not. It is a need he has, and he has that need because he is human.

star*fish,

That is exactly what I meant. She did something terrible to him, and now she must suffer.

Krazy, this may not be your intent, but it is what is perveyed through your words on the flat screen.

I want my husband to want me, not because he did something wrong and I deserve it, but because something I do entices him, intrigues him, enduces a feeling inside him.

I was going to bump this thread this morning, simply because of how it made me feel to read what you initially posted (you beat me to it) It's RAW. I FEEL what you are saying, and I know there is a better way to deal with this. I hope for you the same peace that I have found, in a very tough recovery.

I think there are many asking if your wife is fulfilling YOUR EN for SF, and if not, how are you approaching this thing? Do you actually want acts done that were specifically done to the OM? If so, do you know whether or not your wife is willing or unwilling, and why? She may feel SHAME when doing them. She may be triggered in some other way. Is that okay with you? You would wish pain on her, the triggers and shame? Why?

I don't JUST want that...I want it all. I want everything from romance novel type sex to triple-x-rated over-the-top sex. I really don't think it's asking too much.

Ah, see, onmywayhome, what makes his need for SF any less important than my, as a woman, need for affection, or any other need for that matter?

I don't have my most important EN's met right now. That's the long and short of it. I have voiced my needs. They go unmet. I don't think anyone is trying to make Krazy feel LESS THAN about the need, but we are trying to get the whole story, as to why his FWW may not want to meet this need.

Yes, it hurts to be rejected. I have been rejected by my FWH, in terms of SF and affections, in general. The difference is, how I deal with it. Making it a demand doesn't work. That is also why I asked what his FWW IS DOING RIGHT.

But maybe, to your FWW, it IS, which means you have your own decisions to make about your marriage.

FINALLY it appears someone is paying attention and actually "getting" what Krazy is trying to communicate.

I've read this entire thread shaking my head, because many well intentioned posters, and some that don't appear to be that well intentioned, appear to be projecting their own version of what they are reading, as opposed to what Krazy is actually writing.

IMHO, this IS NOT about a particular act or position, but many continue to state this problem, but is more about her "willingness" and "enthusiasm".

Krazy is NOT wrong, and IMHO, completely justified in requesting that his W acknowledge and meet this need.

FWIW, Krazy, I "GET IT" and support your efforts to recover what has been taken away from you and given to someone else. It is eating you up that your W "shares something special" with someone else, when she won't even "attempt" to share the same thing with you anymore. It sucks, and you're NOT WRONG for recognizing that IT SUCKS!!!

You have indentified a valid condition for you remaining in the M ... a willing and enthusiastic partner ... and you are well within your rights to expect this condition to be met to remain married to her.

We have sex, and it is fine.

It does the job physically. We go through the motions, we achieve some physical satisfaction. Just like we always have. No matter how good it is, I know it lacks something. The "something" that would make her want it after puking for 3 hours with morning sickness. It would never happen with me during a mild cold, even if I was dumb enough to ask.

I do not want specific acts that were done with OM. We had already done everything two sane people can do with each other 1,000 times.

I want to feel desired. Lusted after. I want to be looked at as a piece of meat from time to time. It doesn't happen anymore. She's attracted to me, but there's a difference.

What I really want, I suppose, if to get from my wife what other people look for in an affair partner. I don't usually express this type of anger to her, and I don't want her to suffer, hurt, or be punished.

I just want all of my wife back.

Krazy:


This takes TIME and frankly, it will take ACTIONS on your part for her to feel that way.

If you sit back, closed off and expecting her to give first, it will never EVER happen, no matter how much you want it, need it, demand it, expect it or are owed it.

Women do not look at husbands as a "piece of meat" without a context of a relationship that makes it SAFE and DESIREABLE.

The relationship context takes time and effort from you BOTH.

Expecting that she just lust after you like the OM is unrealistic and will NOT get you what you want.

Learn to be the husband she NEEDS and the lust will be there...I guarantee it.

Krazy, I get it. This is what I want, too.

Some may be reading more into it. I was simply wanting to know if it was about punishment . It sounds as if it is not. What you are asking for, though, takes a considerable amount of time and care.

I am a little confused Krazy. Is your sexual relationship with your wife post-A different from pre-A?

I can completely sympathize with your situation and your feelings. I was just trying to figure out is she different to you post-A, or is it that she was different with OM?

Call me childish, but if I have to change my way of thinking, become "the husband she needs", etc., the problem still isn't solved.

OM didn't have to do squat. He didn't even have to sweet-talk her. One lunch and he was in there.


FINALLY getting what I want after putting out enough effort to become the uber-husband won't work for me. She'll be happy, and I'll be resentful.


Maybe there is no answer. Either get divorced, or take it in the can again.

Krazy - I know exactly how you feel, even though I am a woman dealing with the same issues with my FWH. For a long time, even pre-A, we were members of the once-a-month club. This was not a club I was happy to be a part of, and I tried so many things to improve the SF, to no avail. As a woman it is particularly painful because it isn't something you want to talk about.
Then FWH goes and has an A and probably had sex with OW more times in the WEEK that he was with her than in the last 6 months of our marriage. That hurt, that hurt bad. It's been about 19 months since D-day and now we're at 2.5 months since any SF. The A is long over, there has been NC for months. I have talked about it with him, gotten angry about it, cried about it...nothing. I get the 's@x isn't the only thing in a marriage, honey'...I just want to shake him and yell F YOU!!!! No, it isn't the only thing in a marriage but you took something that was supposed to be special, that was supposed to be shared between you and I, and you gave it away to someone else! So excuse me for wanting it back - excuse me for wanting my husband to want me, so that maybe MAYBE someday I can begin to forget about the fact that you screwed some 25-year old 2 weeks after our wedding anniversary -- maybe if you touched me or kissed me I could feel special again and attempt to heal --- maybe I could stop being so f-ing hurt and angry inside until sometimes i just want to explode...Yeah, fine it may nto be everything in a marriage, HONEY, but when everything you trusted in and held sacred was ripped out from under you it would sure help to be given a chance to feel good, to feel wanted and desired! So, Krazy, you aren't crazy to have these thoughts and feel this pain...and I think the anger that comes through is more about how much this hurts you than anything.

Our sex was always good. We had gotten into a rut, but it wasn't bad...it was always the same, though. Neither of us were complaining. I was content.

Post-A I learned that my W had this side of her that could take over and allow her to take crazy risks just to "get some" with someone she barely knew. It was pure lust, obviously.

If there's another man out there that can stir feelings in her that I can't, with little to no effort, I can't live with it. Especially considering she knows how much I'm hurting.

It is very difficult to convey what I'm feeling on a computer without sounding like a whiner or a controlling ******.

There is a way, and take it in the can or get divorced are not the only options.

I am too busy at work to read the entire thread right now, though I am very interested in this discussion, because it is even an issue I am having right now (with myself).

First, for me what stuck out in why she *could* with the OM and is appearing to not be able to with you -

An alien is under the influence of brain chemicals that send your sexual hormones into torpedo drive. Her brain is not producing those kinds of chemicals right now.

And speaking as a woman who is very much in love with her husband, and still a newlywed, I'd like to know how, too...

I want to feel the abandon, the energy, the hormones in torpedo SF drive, too. But with daily issues, children, etc AND without the alien infatuation chemicals putting my brain in that sexually turbo charged state...



How do women (and some men) get to this mind-set?

This is an excellent discussion. Maybe we can all learn soemthing for our own marriages and help your FWW.

I was even thinking of sensuality herbs and even doses of testosterone from the doctor because I feel this way when we travel, or are away for the weekend but the daily responsibilities cause me to not feel this way, well on an average daily basis.

I didn't marry until I was 37 and before I married, I had a number of long term (3 - 5 year) relationships. They all shared some common characteristics:

- The SF in the first year was way hotter than the SF in the last year.
- Even as an open topic of discussion and with willingness on the part of both of us; each of the ladyfriend's and I were unable to restore the SF to the same intensity as we had at the beginning.
- My enthusiasm for SF always returned to the same high level at the beginning of the next relationship.

Each of these was (with one exception) with no affairs affecting the trajectory of the relationship.

Now I'm married, and you know what? The SF is following exactly the same trajectory. The SF starts super hot, cools down and, with work, levels out at a "really good, but not mind blowing" level.

This may only be true for me, but there's something about new romances that is totally chemical. For me marriage is a clear and conscious decision to give up that "smoking hot" SF in exchange for continuity and deepness of relationship. If I wanted it smoking hot all the time, I'd find a new woman every couple of years.

My point is this. I think that you'd be at the same point on the "desire" curve with your wife regardless of the affair. The fact that she could get hot and worked up over some new guy, has absolutely nothing to do with her relationship with you. Much as you might want to be able to turn her on like the OM did; you can't, you don't and you probably never will again -- and it has nothing to do with inadequacy on your part. It's just how people are.

You want blazing hot SF over kids and continuity? Maybe it's time not to be married. Your wife has given you the moral right to dump her and go off and find your own hottie who will be begging for it for a few years. Either get comfortable with the more sedate pace of married sex; or cash it in and go find the next honey. But don't agonize over the basic (and somewhat sad) truth that chemical passion comes most strongly and intensely at the start of each relationship.

I am just saying Krazy, don't forget about the brain chemicals the A was producing. And how can those be either produced or simulated in a loving marriage.

Mebe,

You are right. I should give up any thoughts of reproducing that same passion. Ever. It's not going to happen. It's impossible. A "new" marriage will not equal "new" feelings.

I would be perfectly fine with that if my wife hadn't experienced that rush without me, after several years of marriage. The last time I felt that rush was in 1993, the year we met. I gladly gave it up.

Since D-day, I've had a little voice in my head that keeps asking what being single would be like after all these years. I've always blown it off as me just having a bad day...SURELY I wouldn't be happier without my family. They're all I've known for years. They are why I get out of bed in the morning. Surely?

Wow...this thread has been eye-opening. I'm realizing that I'm permanently damaged. It's taken nearly a year and a half, but I'm never going to be really fixed. Between my parents' cheating, my trust issues, and the way I discovered my W's betrayal, I don't think I can stay and ever be truly happy. I've been mostly miserable the entire time. I will never trust her again.

I really feel like a rotten person.

Why can't people just keep their pants on?

So this thread was more of a vent, than a way to find answers?

I believe in finding answers, ergo my posts on this thread. Sorry.

Happiness is a choice Krazy.

Your taker is in full blown rage, fueled by anger and entitlement.

I do think you can have hot passionate lustfull sex with your wife - YOUR SEX, IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP, WITH YOUR WIFE, but it does take TIME to develop the context for which it is possible.

You think you want what she had with OM. I suspect if you got what she had with him, you would not be happy.

Because what she had wasn't just mindless sex and lust - it was empty and selfish.

But as long as you continue to draw a frame around it that forces a context of She Is Holding Out the Good Stuff and She Owes ME...you won't be satisfied.

Are you really permanently damaged?

That's a choice you get to make about yourself.

BrambleRose,

I don't JUST want what OM got...I just want it to be on the menu, along with everything else.

I'm realizing that for whatever reason, probably my own shortcoming, that I do not have what it takes. During our 1st try at MC, I decided to be the best husband I could be. I did it. I loved her like neve before, and she knew it. That's why we agreed to have our 2nd child.

Then I walked in on d-day, 6 weeks after she conceived. My efforts weren't good enough. I know the A was about her shortcomings, but I can't help but feel like my best wasn't good enough. It's not like she was in love with OM, or even hoped to be. I was passed over for what amounted to a series of meaningless one-night stands after all of my effort.

I loved her so much, and it hurts just as much. My best meant nothing.

Krazy:

I get it.

You want your FWW to desire you the same way, you percieve, she wanted the OM.

She was an animal, filled with lust, and did everything in a carefree manner.

And that's where you get it wrong.

Your post about Pre-A and Post-A SF finally got me.

Your getting the same detached, 85% SF that you were getting before the A, Now.

But she turned it on to 100% when she was with OM. Even, in you thoughts, to 150%.

If this sounds harsh, its not meant to be. I want you to realize, that you think your FWW was something ELSE, when she was with OM. And that she gave it up so quickly, and easily.

Like the OM was the UPS man and he delivered more than the packages, and then he got a TIP.

Your FWW did not slide down that road quite that quickly.

Your FWW did have SF with the OM. Do not presume that it was 150% better than it was with you.

Your FWW is afraid to REALLY tell you what went on. WHY she did SLIDE down that hill. HOW she ended up on that couch. And WHAT she is doing to prevent it from happening again.

THAT is the root of your anger and resentment, and your thoughts that she was the triple X star with OM.

Because you don't really have a clue what really went on.

And its alot easier to hear her say that it was "just Sex" and "Happened" instead of the real TRUTH.

Which is, that other man, in what ever shape or form, found a way in. Lunch may have happened ONCE, but it was all the activity before that. And if she was involved for two years with OM, than there is SO MUCH more to learn.

But, guess what, until she FEELS Safe to tell you that, you will only EVER GET the 85% SF.

I have told my BS everything she wanted to know. At Dday, and in the days following. Even NOW, if there is something that occurs to her, she askes, and I answer. Its been 28 months. And my wife has issues with her sexuality that comes from years of Catholic School, medical and other issues.

This A of mine, and for SO LONG, destroyed her, and hit her to the core.

But.

My honesty, remorse and contriteness, and my ability to acknowledge what I had done wrong, and what allowed OW in to my life, and my efforts to combat that, let my BS begin to grow again as a woman, mother and partner.

And the SF now in SOOO MUCH better than it was at any other time in the relationship. Before the M, after the M, and before the A.

Because, FINALLY, I had given her 100% on ME. When I gave her that, I finally got 100% of her.

Yes, I got to share something with OW, that used to be special between BS and I. I did that and it was a grave error on my part.

What WE have now, is so far removed, it is amazing.

Krazy, if you want to GO THERE, you can never look at it as if you have to take it on the can.

You already have.

Now its time to go someplace you have never experienced with your W. MB CAN help you with that.

And you will find that the "sexual issues" will disappear rapidly, when your FWW can be honest with you.

Just my .02

LG

I don't think your best meant nothing.

What she did is not a reflection of your worth.

It was a reflection of her failure as your wife.

Healing is a choice we make, it takes time.

For what it's worth, I think you are expecting too much of yourself and her right now.

You can have it all.

You *just* have to climb that mountain (I know, it sounds so much easier than done). You really ARE enough to do that, it takes a choice and it takes hard work.

Josie:

It always seemed to me like more of a vent about the continuing pain of the actions of his wife during the affair and his need than how some interpreted it as a demand.

SL:

Your need for affection is just as valid as anyone else's need... I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I like to hold hands too!

Krazy: I can relate to your situation, it is tough. No doubt about it.

Thank you all for your replies. They mean a lot.

I've never demanded anything from her sexually. If she isn't doing something voluntarily and happily, it means nothing to me. I don't talk about it with her much, because then it would become something she can't do without thinking about our issues.

LG, that was a fantastic post.

Krazy, you can do this. It's ok to be easy on yourself right now and take care of YOU until she is capable of meeting your needs.

onmywayhome,

Thank you for understanding. I don't want to diminish Krazy's rant in the least, but I would want for him what I want for us all, a truly recovered M, and huge leaps in personal recovery.

Krazy, it's almost PAINFUL to read your rants. I think we all hear you loud and clear.

In my experience on these boards, when I rant, I end up with STELLAR advice, pointing at HOW to get where I want to be. It took me a while to figure out how much of the problem *I* was. I STILL don't feel like it's fair, but it's the reality of infidelity and attempted recovery. As the BS, we choose to walk on those hot coals and endure all that entails.

I chose recovery. Am I damaged? H3LL yes! Partly from the pain and devastation of my spouse's decision to have me suffer, so that he could have pleasure. Partly because one of my worst fears actually came true--REJECTION at the highest level.

I chose recovery not fulling well knowing how much I would have to change and how much more perceived rejection I would have to endure. I sympathize with you.

I also know how good it feels when a poster comes on and shouts from the rooftops that my sense of entitlement is understandable and even to be condoned. It feels good in the moment, but it solves NONE of my problems.

Those posters that came to me and said that my reaction was normal, BUT this would not help me recover, and then went on to thwack me about with 2x4s until I started looking at myself (Mimi, LG, Bramblerose to name a few). THESE people have really helped me.

I can honestly say that I feel much stronger than before I allowed their advice to sink in. It's not because my FWH has done a 180, and is doing EVERYTHING he can to save the M. It's because *I* have done a 180, and am really doing all that I can (outside of getting MC help) to save this M.

Before then, I was angry, resentful, and filled with sorrow over what HE didn't give ME, after all he had done to me.

I long for my husband to touch me like he used to; I long for a time when he confides in me what lurks in his heart and mind. I know I cannot have that without doing it myself.

For now, I suppose I will do what I've been doing since d-day: Lower my head and plow forward until something changes. I'm not going to get what I want anytime soon, if ever, so there's no need to expect it.

Who needs self-esteem anyway, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Self esteem comes from within YOU.

You gain esteem by doing esteemable things.

Nothing your wife can do or not do can make you less or more.

Krazy:

Lower your head and plow?

Until something changes?

Well, "HOWS THAT WORKING FOR YA?"

Not good.

So.

Try something different.

What's the nicest thing you have done for your Wife this week? That she didn't expect, and you didn't demand acknowledgement for?

And if not, what would you do in the NEXT WEEK?

Lets change this sitch, not keep repeating the same mistakes.

LG

Don't lower your head and press on. No way! Try something different. Try giving your wife one thing, that you know she would like, without thought of reciprocation or huge gratitude. Let it come from your heart. I know this is hard with that huge wall of resentment. It doesn't even have to be grandiose, either, just something that she would appreciate. Help with the kids, a foot rub, talking to her (you start the conversation). I dunno, think about it.

Don't let the affair define your marriage or your wife, or you, for that matter. An affair and a marriage cannot be compared. It's just not apples to apples. What was wrong with the M, and the spouses, prior to, during and after the A DO apply, and should be worked on, IMHO.

Interesting. This had me thinking a little.

Consider this - try removing the "expectations" from your beheviours.

Let me try and clarify this a bit.

One of the things my FWW told me that she had trouble with during our recovery was that she felt that I expected her to engage in sex or show affection or do something else when I exhibited certain behaviour (e.g. cuddling, stroking, etc.), and her feeling that I expected her to respond in a certain way took away some of the desire.

On learning about this, I immediately started working on trying to "fix" that particular problem, by changing any of my behaviour that triggers that type of response from her. When I eventually get it right (I'm not quite there yet!), I'm hoping that how she reacts towards me is primarily dependent on what she *wants* to do, rather than what she thinks I expect her to do, particularly wrt intimacy and SF.

Krazy,

Reread LG's post. It is hitting close to home.

I would like to add that any WS, when they are with the OP can be WHO EVER THEY WANT TO BE!!

They can BE the nastiest and DO the nastiest outlandish things because they can.. and then they see themselves through the OP's eyes and this re-enforces them to become that person . Remember this is all FANTASY!!

She was his piece of meat and was at his beck and call, then when he left, she could return to her real world.

She can NEVER be this way with you. You are her husband and the father of her children. She loves you deeply and wants your love and respect.

Her role with OM was the opposite. He had no respect for her nor she him....and no love. IT WAS FANTASYLAND!

Like LG said, you can get the 100% from her as a loving and giving wife, but you can't have what she had with OM...nor do you want to have it.

I think you need to work on the basic LOVE BANK premise. Fill it to overflowing. Make her feel safe, secure and loved. Which means, like you said, lowering your head and plowing forward. We BSs always are the one's getting the short end.

Believe me brother, I totally understand what you are telling us.

I still have trouble getting my brain wrapped around my FWW's A. When I start trying to, all the ramifications and facets and the movies of the betrayal overwhelm me like imagining the end of infinity, until my heart drops out of my chest.

So maybe we are thinking too much! ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Plus as someone mentioned earlier, your anger stage is right on time and you are articulating this anger very constructively in this thread. Venting is good and thanks for the thread.

kirk

I'm the sole breadwinner working a stressful, deadline-oriented job, but I do the dishes frequently and cook a couple times per week. I also make sure to let my W sleep in at least once per weekend, since she has to get up with the little one at night and during the week. I bring home flowers and little gifts that we can afford as often as I can.I also take my son to/from school most days, even though I don't have to, and all the usual home maintenance. I try to do as much as I can.

I receive verbal appreciation for the things I do, but I don't think my W knows how tough it is to feel how I feel and still get it all done. It really does seem like a Herculean effort some days.

I don't have much more to give.

Krazy - have you read the 5 Love Lanaguages by Chapman?

This book really helped my husband understand how to fill my lovebank. Perhaps verbal appreciation is not what YOU need.

For some reason, it was a book that really clicked in for us what we were doing wrong. We were killing ourselves to do for the other...but doing and receiving all the WRONG things. This helped us turn it around, and when that happened, it was easier to let the anger and resentment go - as our takers were appeased.

I will look into that book. Thank you.

Have you tried getting away from the house and kids and day in day out stuff. Maybe going to a hotel, ordering room service, sipping champagne and just relaxing (even if it doesn't lead to sex).

You ARE doing quite a bit around the house and for your wife. Maybe, as BR mentioned, it's just not hitting the spot. Why not give yourself a bit of a break, too, Krazy? It sounds like you are a bit frayed, to say the least, running at full tilt. You must take care of yourself, first and foremost. It's really important that you don't run on a short fuse because you are simply exhausted.

Well, I still agree with Krazy.

My ex and OW had hot animal sex - in the car, the truck, at the beach in the waves, on the floor in our home, in our bed, and who knows where else.

SF is one of my top needs, and ex used to spend a lot of time on the couch watching television, then falling asleep. The sex was boring, frankly.

I admit that I had a part in it too. We raised 8 kids together, and I worked full time, plus did all the kid stuff, shopping, cleaning, laundry, cooking. I just accepted my fate.

Turns out Mr. Animal COULD rise to the occasion though. The partner he preferred abandoned her husband and 12 year old daughter and didn't work. Hmmmm.

I guess I would approach it like Laura Schlessinger - tell wifey that you just aren't into your job that much any longer, and are thinking about letting your wilder side out for a romp.

guess this is the part of your original post that was the message to the wife?

so you plan A the heck out of her for a year and a half and you still feel she is distant... all your efforts haven't won her back and now you are frustrated? did i summarize that right?

based on the level of anger in the letter, it is easy for a stranger like me to assume that this is not the first time you have lobbed a horrific love buster her way. it really looks like you have been bitter with her since the affair?

if that is the case (that you have resented the affair and have thrown it in her face periodically over the past year and a half) that may be the reason why she is still distant

am i way off base?

or... if you can truly, honestly say you have done your best to make her love you and it's still not there, maybe it is time for something else

you say insurance no longer covers counseling... looks like if you want to save your marriage you may need to bite the bullet and figure out a way to pay one out of pocket

I hear you Krazy and your right you are never going to get anywhere with her if you accept it. It's just the way it is in marriage. It will continue as long as you allow it to continue.

I will explain to people why he is so distraught. He has to go to work everyday to support a person that killed him inside. She was willing to go to any links to have sex with the OM but for the one who actually goes to work and puts a roof over her head she is unwilling to do that for him.

When a wife refuses to meet her husbands needs if it is sex that seems to be ok. You can see by the responses by women that many of them don't think she is being unreasonable. I am not saying they are wrong it is just the difference between men and women. Now if you stopped giving her financial support which is very important to females well this sex war would be easier to fight.

Just like men are suppose to do a plan A for twice as long as a female? Every body seems to accept that as fair but I don't get it. Not related to your story but on the emotional needs part of this site I found a posting about pornography. Now I read a lot of porn posts but this one just made me shake my head.

A man posted that his wife was viewing porn and was using toys and watching porn instead of having sex with him. She was hiding it and lying about it. Almost all of the women who would have hung a man for these actions were blaming the poor guy. Saying his wife didn't trust him??? I have never seen a woman posting that same story get the advice that her husband doesn't trust her that is why he looks at porn and doesn't have sex with her.

What is the point of all of this, it isn't fair. So do something about it. Don't accept it. I have been there and it is not good for your mental health. I had the same problem you did and I was trying to fix the problem with my XWW.

We went to the counselor also and I heard every excuse just as you have. Probably like you I caught my ex in her affair and that was the end for me. I am not saying to divorce her but if you are not willing to die on that mountain you will have to learn how to accept it.

Sex is the one thing that I think gives women power in the relationship. How many times do you see on TV men being punished that way and I have to admit I laugh.

I hear you but do something about it. Sex was important to me in our marriage because to a male it is how we show and receive love. Your angry because your wife gave to another guy what should have been saved for you. Get some help and make her understand how important it is to you. You have no right to abuse her but you certainly do have a right to expect your wife to participate in a enjoyable sex life.

She was willing to do that for a complete stranger and I think you have every right to expect that in a marriage. Get professional help if you can though because most women don't have a clue about men. Just like we have no clue about them. Good luck to your healing.

(Not)Krazy,

I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been said.

I think you're asking the wrong question.

Instead of asking: "Why doesn't my wife have the burning desire for hot sex with me like she did with a virtual stranger?"

I think the real question is: "Why DID she have the burning desire to f--- a virtual stranger?"

You said she has suffered no consequences for the affair. But I disagree. Every time she screwed him... using another human being, and allowing herself to be used... it chipped away a tiny bit of her soul. Whether she realizes it yet or not.

Did you ever say whether she suffered some sort of trauma in the past (sexaul or otherwise)?

It seems clear to me that she does not have a healthy emotional outlook. Why is that? What happened to her? Because until she becomes emotionally healthy herself, she won't be able to give you what you want anyway.

--SC

Krazy,

Have you figured out why your wife had the affair? Has she processed it? What did the OM represent that you didn't? Did she do this out of boredom or is there something fundamentally wrong with her?

I'll probably get people all hot with this, but it is my observation and personal experience that most people do not have affairs when they are secure and fulfilled in their marriage. Yes, I know that some people are just sadists and f-around just because they have the opportunity. But I think that most people that I have intereacted with do not act that way.

Why did your wife do this? Your really need to find this out so that it doesn't happen again. If she has no clue and won't address it I would pack her bags and send her off to the OM. She has to find out why she did this so she can affect the changes in her life that will protect you from further trama. I really belive this.

On an aside, don't ever compare yourself to the OM. If he that amazing she would have left you to be with him. No-fault divorce and child support for the next 18 years would have given her a good start on a new life. Why is she still with you? There must be some reason that she stays around and has to deal with looking in the eyes of a man that she hurt terribly. It would be so much easier for her just to run. Why is she still with you?

Can I ask, since we "fast forwarded 17 months" in this outline, what was your reaction when you walked in on them on the couch? What was said, done, what was their response to your response, etc?

-FHTH

I totally agree with this. If my H sat around and didn't try to find out the reasons for his affairs, I would see that as a measure of how much he wanted our marriage and I would be afraid it would happen again. I personally wouldn't sign up for that.

I personally feel that you would both benefit from counseling, and if she is not willing to go, you may consider going for yourself. You cannot control her or change her, but you can change yourself and how you respond to her.

Figure out what you value and put boundaries in place to protect it. If you wife isn't willing to work on the marriage by seeking counseling, etc. then I guess there's not much of a marriage to value.

I do believe the new poster who is the FWS and told you that you just can't turn on your feelings is correct. I'm willing to bet your wife is holding onto resentments about your marriage and probably even has a false sense of entitlement to some of those feelings. This can be worked out in IC and MC.

If you want results, you have to do the work. It won't come on a silver platter.

Now for this




New poster, FromHeaventoHell......

Please explain what the relevance of this question is in helping Krazy, other than to cause him triggers.

This is your first post. Do you have a story somewhere on these boards? We are leary of new posters around here because of the trolls lately. Being this is your first post and jumping in with a question like this has me wondering if you are a troll.

Would this person, if he/she is a troll, likely be a WS looking to find out what might happen if they were caught red-handed, too?

I'll answer the question soon...that story might even be worthy of its own topic.

I think its a valid question that I was wondering about myself. "SOMETHING" is causing Krazy to NOT get past this ... now it could just be the obvious of walking in and catching them in the act ... OR there could have been a specific incident that occurred at that time. Possibly the W or OM said or did something to further humiliate Krazy that he can't get past or he is questioning himself for NOT getting physical with the OM ... we just don't know.

I know he's going about this the wrong way, but I REALLY feel for this guy and what he has endured.

Anyway, I think it is a valid question, although I can certainly see your concerns.

I'm sorry to just jump in with a question without putting my story up first. I've been reading Krazy's posts (I've read them all on every thread), and find myself feeling a LOT like he does, not every detail, but close. I've also been reading other's posts to him and reading up on MB principles. Even though this goes against a natural reaction, I can see the good it could do and I'm starting to try to see things from that point of view...
Now to the question. I didn't mean for it to be a trigger, but I think that hearing what everyone said and knowing the reponses would go a long way to seeing into the mind of each person involved and where the mindset started (post affair, upon discovery). That in turn, may be relevant to what's happened since D-day. I may be off base here, and if so, then my appologies. It's something I was interested in both for Krazy's story's continuity AND because I would like to possibly gain some insight on if it has anything in common with my reaction's on my D-day...Granted, I didn't bust them in the act, but the reactions may be similar, I just don't know.
I'm still only a couple of months out from my D-day, and still have a hard time dealing with the betrayal. I'm just looking for similarity's between my story and anyone else's that I can relate to my own experience thus far.
Again, if I am out of line, I appologize.
-FHTH

I agree it would be a valid question if that was what Krazy was so upset about.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't Krazy upset about his wife's sexual desire for him? Isn't that what this thread is about? I don't see the revelence to his wife's desires in that question but I am definitely willing to see why you guys think it is

But he's angry because of her lack of desire. Wasn't that the issue?

Yes, he's angry for a lot of obvious reasons and he probably has a lot of different feelings and emotions about walking in on them. But that scenario didn't kill HIS desire to be with his wife sexually. Correct me if I'm wrong here Krazy. I'm sure the SF would be difficult even if your wife did have the desire. Her lack of it just makes it worse.




Well, I guess that's possible. Anything's possible. But I don't think so.

mopey,

It seems that Krazy is sabbotaging his own chances at SF with his very negative (albiet understandable) comments towards his W. To me, it seems that there is "something" that keeps him from getting past the act, the discovery or the OM, that causes him to keep badgering his W, which in turn causes her to withdraw further. I was just wondering if there was something missing from the account of what happened that may be feeding that negativity (other than the obvious).

MyRelevation,

I know this is OT for this thread, but I just wanted to tell you that I used to work for MSN (who owns hotmail), and that if you have an account with MSN and are the account holder, you can call their technical support, tell them you want to talk to Tier 3, and have them "undelete" everything from the account that has been deleted. Just FYI
-FHTH

FHTH.....



My guess is the mindset started before the affair and that's why she had the affair. Krazy, did your wife desire you like the OM before the affair? My guess is is probably "no".

Thank you very much ... I'll call tomorrow ... t/j over.

MR....


That is very possible and duly noted. It is very difficult for a BS to get over the anger of being cheated on. Their lives feel like they are falling apart because their WS wanted to get their needs filled elsewhere. And he needs to be able to get that anger and pain out, in a healthy way and I'm the first one to admit that that is HARD. He has every right to be angry but it is a consequence of her behavior.

I feel they are still resenting each other for whatever reasons and it's showing up in their SF.

Krazy, please forgive me for not having read your whole thread, although I've read a lot. Have you sat your wife down and "asked" her in a loving and non-defensive way why she doesn't have that same desire?

I honestly wish you two would get some counseling to bring these issues up so you can work through them.

My memory of the event is fairly fuzzy, because I was as close to crazy as I've ever been.

I called my wife at work at about 11:00 am. I was told she was already at lunch, which was odd because we always went at noon and met at home...if not, we'd call each other. I thought she must've been feeling especially awful and went home early to rest. She had been suffering from morning sickness, since she was 6 weeks pregnant at the time...we'd known for about 2 weeks. I left for home immediately without calling...I was one part suspicious (that came naturally), one part concerned for her health.

I saw har car in the driveway, but I also saw a strange vehicle parked in the street out front. I remember thinking, "Surely not. She's pregnant!" I'll never forget that because it was the last thought of my old life, and of my old self.

I opened the door. My wife had just barely gotten herself covered, and the OM had just stood up. Both were completely naked. This is where my memory begins to fail. I'll never forget the looks on their faces. I can't imagine what mine must've looked like. I can't even describe the feeling. It was like a mental overload. Enough anger to kill them both, enough sadness to kill myself, and it all welled up from nothing in 2 seconds. I had no real suspicions, and I had been at a high point...we had improved our marriage from being on the verge of separation 2 years earlier (due to "not getting along"), to agreeing to have a second child. From my point of view, our marriage was at its best in over 10 years. Then I opened the front door. The ultimate blindside.

Back to the point: At first, nobody said a word. Then I spoke.

"You didn't even use protection?"

I could see that with my own 2 eyes. Then I turned to OM.

"Did you know she's six weeks pregnant?"

He didn't, supposedly. I started to meltdown as OM got dressed. I thought about my shotgun, but it was upstairs. I couldn't get to it and get back down before OM left. I started for the kitchen to get a knife. I swear on my kids' life that I had every intent of gutting him like a fish in my living room. I wanted to so bad I could taste it, then I thought of my son. He'd be without a father. That's all that stopped me. OM started to leave and I yelled, as loud as I could, with a finger in his face,

"If I ever see you again, I will kill you!"

It may sound like hot air right now, but I wasn't kidding.


I regret not attacking him. Not killing him, maybe, but he should've gone to the hospital that day. I feel like it was my obligation as a husband, a father, and a man, but I failed. I felt like my only options were to kill or not. Simple assault never crossed my mind.

After he'd left, I broke some stuff and asked "Why?" an unknown number of times while my wife said, "I'm sorry" every time I asked. She was also in shock, I'm sure.

After I started to return to some semblance of sanity, I began interrogating her. I'd never seen this guy before. I had no idea who he was. I'll never forget that the first time I asked for his name, she gave me one. It must've been an awful job of lying, because even in my shocked state, I knew she was lying. She gave me his real name the second time I asked. Then she gave me everything else she knew, including his cell phone number, employer, etc.

The next day, I called his wife. She didn't react any better than I did. I haven't heard from her since, although I've been tempted many, many times to call her and compare notes.

I'm done for the night, but I'll check in tomorrow and answer any questions and fill in any holes I left in the story.

Here's one more thing. I had nearly blocked it out entirely, and I'm disgusted, absolutely disgusted with myself for this:

About an hour after I caught them, we had sex.

I don't know why. I can barely remember it. I sure wasn't horny. I was insane. I don't know why my W went along with it, I don't know why I did it.

I've only done one thing in my life that truly made me feel real disgust for myself, and that was it.

Until now, only her and I knew about it.

Damn, man ... I don't know what to say. I know its probably not very manly, but I feel so sorry for what you had to endure (and continue to endure) ... I truly can't imagine what that must be like.

I try to relate things to my own experiences, but my situation just wasn't that "intense". However, I do feel "cheated" at times ... not just over the infidelity ... but also because I never got the chance at any type of "satisfaction" with the OM, and I can only imagine that those feelings are "off the charts" for you.

Amateur pyscholanalysis here, but do you think this unresolved issue with the OM is the source of your anger towards your W? ...that he took something that belonged to you ... your W won't "give" it back ... and you missed the opportunity to "take" it back from him?

I know I have these "self worth" issues re: OM at times, which usually causes me to get into a "funk" towards my W. Obviously, I don't have the answers, but sometimes it helps just to know what the real issue is.

I wish I could buy you a beer, but all I can do is wish you Good Luck in you quest for resolution.

Krazy,

I don't think that you are that uncommon in vaing sex with your wife on d-day. I don't know that it has ever been addressed in a thread here before, but I bet you are not alone. I can't site the study, it was a long time ago, but I recall something about the difference in sperm in different circumstances and there is a battling for superiority sperm that is produced in certain situations.

In know in my real life, the few people that I have talked to about the infidelity in their marriage had the same experience you did, myself included.

Again, maybe I am reaching for straws, but do you have regrets about how you handled that horrifying d-day. Do you feel any shame about not doing OM harm? I am not a man, but you spoke like you thought you should have at least made him seek medical care.

How much of your feelings of who you are as a man were affected that day? What I don't know is if it is your job to heal that , or it that WW's job. Hopefully you can get some advice from the BH's on the board.

PS: I think that being there as a father to your children is a helluva lot more manly than serving time for killing some POS OM

Krazy:

I just want to let you know that I cried when I read the story you just posted. I put myself in your shoes (althought I'm a BW), and couldn't help crying loud while reading...

And that helps me understand you more about your anger and your pain...

I didn't have such a dramatic encounter. But my rage echoes the same way as yours after Dday.

And also I wanted SF so much after Dday. I felt ashamed of that also. But now I am getting better. I couldn't understand that either, but a wise lady called "anyname" in this board gave me an explanation. She had SF every night with FWS for two years after Dday. I am not sure if this applies to everybody, but for some, me inluded, the heightend SF drive after Dday is partly fueled by insecurity and human nature.

I used to feel so ashamed and ask myself why, why my desire suddenly get so strong with such a man and I felt there was something wrong with me...But I slowly recognized this part of human nature and made peace with it...And I even venture to think that the physical part during A is also fueled by the insecure nature of it since during A, there was no true commitment.

So please don't beat yourself up in this respect. From my own experience and some others experience I know of, it's complete normal for some people and please don't feel ashamed of that.

My H and me are making great progress in recovery. I experience the same kind of issue as you do. My desire is still very high and his is still low. And one strange thing is that my SF drive was close to zero before his confession of the A. We had SF only about 5 or 6 times a year after kids were born mainly because of my low S drive. But now everything is so different and it's just strange. I want it all the time and H has performance anxiety now. And I have learned to control myself a bit and things are getting better.

One thing I learned during this very difficult time for both of us is that anger doesn't us anything. I have been having angry outbursts and LB all over the place for many many times this year. And I just couldn't help it. It happens and it takes a life of its own when it's triggered. So I do understand your pain and your anger and your outburst and how it's just so hard to contain sometimes.

Just recently I realized that this is not getting us anywhere and I started to change my ways. I start to build my self love and I start to communicate calmly my negative feelings. I'm still learning and I'm not there yet. But I see great results because of my self care. When I become happy with myself again, I see my H become so happy also and everything impoved. I still back slide a lot, I just had another explosion last weekend. But I apologied to him.
I realized that yes, my anger is justified, but it didn't justify my angry outburst and my verbally attacking him and hurt him...I feel even worse out my explosion and I need to stop it for my own sake and for my marriage's sake.

Another thing is that we need to build intimacy and we should put that before the SF. We need to become friends with our S first. I have had a huge problem with that because of my anger, but now I come to realize that the way I behave won't get me anywhere. And our intimacy builts up quickly when I stop my destructioin. We started to talk and we started to feel real close. That's the ultimate goal.
Just like you, I need to find an outlet for my anger also and I'm still struggling with that.

Krazy, I just want to let you know that your feelings are normal and there are a lot here that feels the same way. But we do need to find a way to put the anger in the right place and stop the destruction it could cause yourself and your marriage if that's what you want to save.

Best of luck to you and hope you find peace in your heart.

LovingAlong

LovingAlong,

Thank you for taking the time to read it. It was hard to type.

Krazy,

I know your getting a lot of responses to your thread. Hard to respond to them all, I'm sure.

I hope you will take some time to at least briefly answer the questions I asked you in my post on the previous page.

And let me say... I'm so sorry for what you went through. I can't even begin to imagine....

--SC

Smartcookie,


I will ASAP..this is a crazy day at work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Smartcookie,

For a variety of reasons, she had built up resentment and demonized me for a long, long time. She said she felt like leaving, but didn't have the nerve. She thought to herself at the time, "Fine. You want me to stay? I'll stay, but I'll have my fun and get revenge, too."

She was living with one foot out the door for a long time. She figured if she didn't get caught, fine...if she did, she'd be single. No big deal either way.

I'm paraphrasing, but that's what she told me.

She also claims that she was going to inform OM that she was done seeing him before he left that day, due to her being pregnant and her newfound desire to work on her M.

I know that "I was ending it" is right out of the cheaters' handbook, but I think that maybe, just maybe, she honestly believes it. I'll never know for sure, because I ended the A, not her. Is it ever true?

Then again, she claims she never had an O with OM by choice. She can have them easily, but she claims that it was like a boundary to her (nice boundaries, I know). She wouldn't use our bed, made him pull out, etc. She says that even though having an A is awful, she had these "boundaries" that she wouldn't cross WITHIN the A.

Does that sound plausible, or is it just minimizing in your opinion? Is it even possible she's telling the truth, or am I fooling myself?

This ain't smart cookie,

but uhm:

sorry dude [but at least on this issue]-- "YOUR FOOIN YOURSELF"!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Or to be more precise,
she's STILL FOOLIN YOU .....and sadly your [maybe] buying it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Just add it to the WS List:
you know the one:
*they Always Used protection,
they always took their wedding rings off,
they Never said I love you,
they never discussed YOU or your sex life , ect*........yep sure right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Top Rope,

Were you referring to the "I was ending it" cliche?

This A was a little different...they would meet every 2 or 3 months on average, for a quickie. No gifts, no dates, no deep emotions on either side. Very little communication in bewteen "meetings".

They were f_ckbuddies, but barely even counted as "buddies". They used each other.

That's why it wasn't much of a stretch to think she could easily discard him.

"inform OM that she was done seeing him before he left that day"

"she never had an O with OM"

"she claims that it was like a boundary to her"

"She wouldn't use our bed, made him pull out"

"She says that even though having an A is awful, she had these boundaries that she wouldn't cross"

WW lies to lessen your pain and her pain. To calm you down, damage control, not have to admit the truth as to the what when where who why how questions were asked by you. WW advoiding her feeling pain having to admit to the truth.

Sorry to not be clearer there Krazy.
Easy to misinterpret in this medium sometimes
(you'd think I'd get that by now, huh?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

First,
I was simply adding your W's bull stuff to the endless mountain of Other WS's lies and half truths.
As a result,
I was simply using some of the classics as examples to go along with what your W was [eh' em] saying.
I was in no way implying that she Used any of the examples I listed.

Now as to your own list,
indeed your last sentence was asking are you being played for a fool.
I stated IMO yes, you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your last post itself points this out.
OK,
lets just take everything that you yourself have stated.
The ENTIRE relationship was based on SEX, pleasure and using each others bodies.
That means No attachment, no deep meaning, no permanent feelings.

Alright,
got it.
I'll take that at face value ......more of that going on then people want to believe.

However,
you then can't have it BOTH ways (with what your attempting to believe).

After convincing us all that its only about the SF,
then we are supposed to swallow that she never had an O in all the times they hooked up,
and even straight faced claims it was By Choice??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That doesn't even pass the 1st grader test. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Please,
IF the A is all about the Sex and hooking up (with NO other type of bonding)......yet "by choice" WW NEVER has orgasms ---
Then there would be NO POINT to getting together.

No one gets together repeatedly for sex, with someone they (allegedly) have no other connection with .....and doesn't get the pay off.

Makes absolutely NO Sense what so ever.

Why?
Cause the sex, pleasure and fun WERE THE ENITIRE reason for them coming together.

So there is one lie that your W just didn't think all the way through.
Lies tend to pop out [in the moment} like that.

On the one hand she says its only sex,
which spares your feelings as you think it was just bodies and not hearts and minds.

OK,

But then she claims no orgasms,
as to protect your Manhood and your sense of sexuality.

Can you see where EITHER story by itself, you could probably accept ........but that when forced together into reality and examined at the same time.......they really make no sense and one or Both are not true.

Anyway, that's what I was more so inferring in my first post.

This is one reason why soooo many WS do NOT Want to continue talking about the details of their affairs.
Because upon further review and deeper scrutiny,
many of the lies they want to continue to conceal end up contradicting one another and they end up exposing themselves with their own testimony.

And as far as the "I was ending it on the very night you JUST HAPPENED to walked in" part
.....oh brother.......that is patterned after the strategy of:
"if you saw us kiss" --- all we did was kiss
"if you caught us one time" ---- that was the first/only time
"if you only know about Oral" --- then all we did was oral ......ect, ect, ect
Are ya picking up the pattern there. Hope so.

Guess it comes down to WS lie. And lie Big time.

Question becomes are you the type that needs those lies to be amended in order to move forward?
I know I did, as it began to prove to me [with an action] that my W was at least beginning to "get it" and that our relationship did indeed mean more to her then protecting her memories of her A.

Only you can answer what you need though.
I wish you success in figuring out what that is and how to get it.

OK, how do I convince her to admit the truth after 17 months?

Yes, I do need the truth to move on, and I don't think I'm getting it now.

You may never get the whole truth. And maybe that would be for the best. If you got the whole truth and nothing but the truth, what other mind-movies would you see? I know some of the facts of my H's A, but not all. I don't want to know all. The little that I do know sometimes drives me crazy. My mind works overtime with images.
I do not think you are being selfish in wanting your W to want you. You are married. You are supposed to be partners. She is not supposed to want anyone else. Nine months after a birth is long enough. I only waited 6-8 weeks after my children were born, and then I got my drive back. I know it is different for every woman, but 9 months?
I want my FWH to want me just like you want your FWW to want you. So far, in that respect, we are doing fine. I hope that you can get this situation worked out, so the other issues can be taken care of.

(Not)Krazy,

All that stuff about what she did or didn't do with OM... or whether or not she intended to end it... who knows? It does sound wacky and contradictory to her statement that it was all about sex/strange/pleasure. The only problem I have with discounting it outright is that waywardness itself is not logical, rational, consistent, etc. If waywards were thinking straight... well... they wouldn't be waywars would they?

But while you hash out that part of the picture with others... I'd like to refocus your attention on the first half of your post and the questions I posed earlier. This part:



And these questions:


See... all that stuff about building up resentment toward you and having one foot out the door makes sense. But she could have chosen to deal with it in any number of ways.

--divorcing you.
--putting arsenic on your powdered donuts.
--flipping you the bird every time you turned your back on her.
--putting ex-lax in your brownies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You get the idea.

But the question is: Why did she choose to "get her revenge" by having an affair... and why did she get such a charge out of using and being used by OM to boot?

Let me put it another way. What was it about HER (not you or your marriage) that led her to make that choice... and to actually ENJOY the cold, calouse f-ing of OM?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

People have affairs because there's something broken, damaged, deficient inside themselves. And it doesn't sound as though, from what you've written, that she has identifed what that is. Much less addressed it.

She needs to answer some questions:
Why did she have the affair? (and revenge against you is not an acceptable answer.)
Why did she enjoy using OM and being used by him? (and revenge against you is not an accptable answer.)


I know this post is getting really long... but before I close, I just want to reveal to you my bias here.

I'm a FWW and a childhood sexual abuse survivor.

I cheated on my husband twice. Once in 1996, a ONS. And again in 2005, a 6 week or so affair.

In the middle of the ONS, I became so horrified at what I was doing, I stopped it, mid-act, if you will. After the OM left... I remember lying prone, pounding my fists on the bed, sobbing, and screaming.. "Why, why, why did I do that? Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!" I hated myself, felt physically ill over it, and vowed I would never let it happen again. I also didn't tell ANYONE about it, including my husband.

But... and here's the important part... I never really answered my own question -- why?

Over the next nine years... I continued to let all those hurt, broken, deficient parts of ME fester... never answering the question of why. And in the meantime, the state of my marriage continued to disintigrate... and I continued to build up loads of resentment against my husband (for a variety of reasons, just like your wife).

And then history repeated itself. Only then did I begin to do some real soul searching. And I discovered some, shall we say, "unpleasant" things about myself. I also, finally, started healing those old, old wounds of childhood sexual abuse... which... as it turned out... were the root of many of the "unpleasant things about myself" that I had dragged into adulthood. (Does that make sense?)

So once again... my question is... what emotional/mental crap is your wife carrying around? Where does it come from? And what is her plan to heal/fix it?

I believe those questions are at the core of her personal and your marital recovery. When, and only when, she figures out the answers to those questions will she be able to take responsibility for her actions... be completely truthful with you... and begin to heal herself and her relationship with you (including your sexual relationship.)

--SC

Bump

Sorry for the shameless bump.

Still no progress in this area...it just continues to get worse. I can feel myself becoming more resentful every day.

I've told my W this. Her response is always something like, "It's not like I want to have sex with someone who feels that way about me."

So, there you have it. A catch-22. I'm not going to be a "good boy" without being rewarded, and she's not going to give rewards until I am a "good boy".

By good boy, I mean my attitude must improve. Less anger, less sadness, more trust, and less obsessing about the A in general.

I swear that sometimes I think you've got to be borderline retarded in some way to have an A in the first place. They all act so f_cking stupid.

Very true. However, you might want to refrain from saying this to your wife as it will not help things along.

Well, Krazy, I'm currently in a SEXLESS M, so I can't help ya there.

I can only say that, recently, I've stopped obsessing over it, and it has helped me. I'm not saying all is great and well, but *I* don't feel like sh!te and ANGRY all of the time.

I swear, I thought the resentment was going to eat me alive.

I hope other BH's can help you out.

I know better than that. I'm usually FAR more diplomatic. Not ALWAYS, but usually.

You should hear some of the stuff she says! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Silentlucidity,

I've always heard a sexless marriage is a dead marriage. I believe it, unless both spouses are so old that sex isn't a factor anymore.

I also believe this: If they are getting it from you, they may also be getting it from someone else. If they aren't getting it from you, then they are DEFINITELY getting it from someone else.

I don't believe for a second that the average WS goes from being a slut (male or female) to being celibate.

I'll give my wife a little longer, then I'll begin to assume she's screwing someone else.

I don't believe he's getting sexed elsewhere, but he's got SOMETHIN goin on. I'm sure my anger helped to shrink his whosawhatsit in the past. Dunno bout now. It's not something that I will be able to continue in forever, but I have no idea what my breaking point will be until I reach it.

Really, sex is not HIGH on my list of priorities as much as O&H, and AFFECTION.

I haven't gotten much DIRECT feedback on this subject, except to CHECK on his NC. I've done that. Otherwise, I'm no mind reader....

edited to add...

I can't change him, but I can change me, and living in a state of ANGER and RESENTMENT was killing my spirit, and I WON'T let anybody do that to me. For now, my kid is boiling over with glee and his dad is so inspired by him. I am treated with respect, and he is honest with me. I'm okay with that for now. It's a heck of a sight better than where we have been. I hope for more.

Krazy,

I understand where you're coming from with your comments. But both of you being an an crossroads and neither wanting to give in is not going to get you anywhere.

Someone needs to be the bigger person. If not her, then you. I know that doesn't seem fair but recovery isn't always fair.

I think I'd rather end the marriage than compromise on this issue. I've swallowed enough pride by allowing her to remain in my life.

It may very well come to that.

She screwed up...she can either rectify the situation by merely doing what she's already done...with someone else...or she can miss half of her kids' childhood. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I agree with coachswife on this one. YOu two will never recover this way. I'm no expert, but anger and bitterness toward your spouse isn't going to arouse her.

YOu aren't giving her much of a choice here, Krazy. You're saying either she behaves in a deviant manner with you, and all the BAD choices that entails and bad feelings about herself that entails, OR divorce.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with your perspective at all.

Just how much of a choice did Krazy's WW give him before she jumped into an A, and just what is "deviant" about a married man wanting, and having a reasonble expectation of having SF with his W?

Personally, I think Krazy has a much healthier attitude about this than most of the BH's we see here, who claim to be "recovered", but in fact have settled for something less than what should be expected. BH's should be ready to leave the M, if the WW won't return to the M fully ... this situation was forced on him, which means he get to decide if R or D is the better option, and ONLY Krazy can make that decision for himself.

I understand that this is viewed very differently between men and women, and if I've misunderstood your intent, I apologize for jumping in.

Yeah, you've misunderstood my intent. I thought Krazy was saying he wanted her to BE like she was with OM. Her behavior THEN was deviant. The only time *I* have ever been hypersexual was in the romantic stage of love. Now, if you just want a warm body for insertion, I'm sure she'll fit the bill. If you want her to be involved, well, that takes a whole lot more SUGAR, IMO.

AS for now, I gotta say, if someone is angry with me all the time, it doesn't endear me to them.

Also, IF his WW is just punishing, and will NEVER give him this EN, and it's a deal breaker, then that's it, isn't it? He has his answer.

I don't think ANGER and RESENTMENT is healthy every waking moment, so if this is the case, I have to disagree that he's HEALTHY about this.

Believe me, I'm not jumping for joy that my sex life is on HOLD, but I'm not going to continue to do the same sh!te over and over again, waiting for something to change.

Again, if this is a deal breaker, then the deal is broken, n'est pas?

edited to add...

I'm also coming from the perspective of a BW, who does not have sex at the top of the EN scale, but does have affection AT THE TOP. For me, the only way I have gotten this need met has been to drop the anger and resentment. So far, so good, with a loooooooong way to go.

I don't think it is wrong AT ALL for the BS to want sex from their spouse, not at all.

SL,

Sorry I misread what you were saying ... I thought you were just piling on Krazy in a "man-bashing" sort of way. It really is tough to distinguish "intent" with only the impersonal written word.

I don't know if you've read through Krazy's story, but given "how" he discovered his WW's A, as a fellow BH, he gets a free pass from me on the anger part, even if it is counter to MB principles.

In all honesty, I think he has an amazing tolerance level to have made it this far.

In his case, this apparently is going to be a deal-breaker, and I really can't fault him for that. Any man that has endured what he witnessed should get a shot at true happiness with a real life "partner" ... and I would support his decision to continue to R or go straight to Plan FU ... as he's earned the right to make that decision for himself.

Rev,

I have read his entire thread. I totally agree with you about what Krazy has suffered thru. I never even SAW OW#2 (yup, there were two), and I have enough bad memories in MY HEAD. I can imagine how tortured he must be.

The reason I respond to him is because he posts. When he posts, I take it as a person reaching out.

My issue with his anger is, if he stays, he's going to die a slow death of a thousand daggers. There will be nothing left of him. I HATE what affairs do to us, the BS, just HATE it. I have been on this coaster for almost three years now, in recovery for 8 months. I KNOW anger, as many of us do.

I don't FAULT Krazy, there are real reasons for his anger.

I support any BS decision to Plan FU or continue with the R. I don't , however, help them make excuses for the damage they are doing to themselves. If this truly is a helpless sitch, in his mind and heart, then he knows what to do. If he is trying to hold on, then my best advice is for HIM to get some help.

I believe even Harley says that some people never get over the A, nor the devastation, for it is just too much. I hope, for Krazy and his kids and his wife, that he can recover.

I personally believe Krazy and his wife should end the marriage and save themselves (and their children) years of misery...and eventual abuse.

I do not believe that Krazy will ever be able to recover from this because he does not WANT to. Krazy feels that he has now earned the right to behave however he wants and that his wive should cower at his feet and beg his forgivness.

It seems that they are at an impasse. He treats her like [censored] and makes her feel horrible and then expects her to bow to him and treat him like a king. Sorry Krazy, that ain't how it works!

You BOTH had a part to play in the demise of the marriage. Yes, the way she chose to deal with it on her end was absolutely HORRIBLE. But it doesn't detract from the fact that you were responsible for 50% of the marriage before the affair and whether you like or not, you still have to contribute your 50% even after the affair. Just because you caught her in an A doesn't mean that now she has to contribute 90% to the marriage and you only have to put in your 10% because she "owes" you.

If that's how you plan to continue your marriage then you should just divorce now.

I think you view is way off and your post out of line.

MEDC, WHO?

Not that I think my post is out of line. If Krazy can't find a way to engage in his marriage in a positive way, then he has his answer. It's over OR he will live in a BAD MARRIAGE; one of which is partially his doing.

Hope that cleared it up. He can be angry all he likes, but it's not the MB way, and this IS a MB website.

Sl, the post was directed at Cathy01. (see title line). I have no problems with your posts(or your delivery) and think you are right on.

Thanks for the clarification, MEDC.

This quote, taken from a previous Krazy post, to me shows exactly his frame of mind.

If this IS truly his frame of mind then it is highly unlikely that they will ever get past this. In the mean time, they are causing more and more damage every single day to their relationship with each other and to their children.

He has said that his resentment is even more now than it was when he first posted two months ago.

If Krazy's wife even *thinks* that he might actually feel this way about her, then it's no wonder she's not as "enthusiastic" as he'd like. If anybody ever told me they felt like they were licking a public urinal when they kissed me then they'd never get the opportunity to kiss me again. Sorry.

MEDC, sorry you felt that way about my post, but I meant every word.

cathy..
I also believe that Krazy and his wife need serious serious counseling if there's a snow-balls chance of this marriage working out..

otherwise it is setting up to be a battle field of monstrous propertions..

this opinion board is way way undererquipped to deal with the heavy psychological and emotional issues that are occuring for both of them..

I pray he seeks professional counsel...and or she as well

ARK^^

Krazy,

Before her affair, did your wife act as you now wish her to act with YOU? Not with someone else . . . you’ve said that . . . with YOU.

Frankly, I cannot help who I'm sexually attracted to. I cannot fake it. It is as a light switch with me . . . on or off. Perhaps your wife is the same.

I do know that very few people want to have fantastic monkey-sex with someone that is hostile to them. Even if the hostility is justified.

Perhaps you two should divorce before you completely hate each other. I think that no matter what you do your wife will not respond in the fashion that you wish. Read some about the chemistry of attraction and you will see that it is fleeting; generally it reaches its zenith in the early stages of a relationship. You’ve been married for years. If you want that from someone, that intense desire and hyper-sexuality, you will probably have to start a new relationship with someone else.

cathy,

I don't always agree with MEDC, but I do in this instance. Krazy is completely justified in feeling this way, and he needs a place like this to "vent" to keep from blasting his WW on a daily basis.

I agree, that his M seems pretty hopeless and will likely end in D, but Krazy has earned a shot at R, if he chooses, whether we agree with his perspective or not.

Personally, I think many BH's would be much better off in being more assertive about what they want/expect, rather than simply settling for less than they signed up for in the beginning, because they are so whipped by their WW. Krazy will likely come out of this with some relationship that is acceptable to him, it just may be with someone else, but that is much better than accepting the leftover crumbs that many of the so-called "recovered" BH's here have settled for.

FWIW, Krazy has my respect for knowing what he wants and having the backbone to not accept less.

I think walking in on your WW screwing another man would make him feel disgusted to kiss her at times...considering where her mouth most likely was.

I agree that Krazy needs to either dump her (which I think is the right move) or find a better way to deal with his anger. Her treatment of her H has brought this about...I understand his anger and his pain. She is lucky she hasn't been kicked to the curb...and she is lucky he didn't shoot the both of them when he walked in on this. She really should be grateful that didn't happen.

Krazy, I do understand your pain. But really...what is it doing for YOU right now? From a selfish standpoint, decide what you want for yourself and go about getting it the best way you know how. Obviously it is not great foreplay to slam your wife and then expect her to be ready to please you. I understand that you feel cheated. You have been cheated and in all honesty, that isn't going to change.

Your wife is giving you lousy leftovers...no doubt about it. So, it is up to you to decide if she is worth the effort to try and recover your marriage. Only you can decide that right now. Some WS are worth the effort...some aren't worth the air they breathe. This really isn't about sex...it is about her sharing a part of herself with the OM that she is now denying you...it is much deeper than sex.

Make up your mind about what you want and decide for YOU...not for HER...that you are not going to live in a constant state of anger all the time. Do it for yourself.

Exactly.

Krazy,
Believe it or not, I've spent the morning reading all but a dozen or so of your posts. Take my observations and questions at face value and ignore if you don't think they're applicable.

What do you really want? If your W starting having sex with you at your whim and in whatever fashion you wanted, would that be enough?

Given how you feel, why are you still in the marriage? Do you feel trapped or otherwise unable or unwilling to move on?

Your anger/rage is complicated by adding infidelity in your marriage to what you experienced as a child. What, if anything, can bring you some measure of peace? Do you need to confront your mother and let her know exactly how you feel?

Now for some observations by me...Nothing has really changed in your anger level since you came here. Regardless of how justified you are and/or how repentent your W is, she is not going to respond positively to you as long as you carry your burden. Go back in this thread and read(or re-read) BrambleRose's replies to you. They were right on.

You said:"The bottom line is that I owe her nothing more now than before the A, but she DOES owe me a helluva lot more now than before the A...and I'll be damned if I begin to pay up first."...

While I totally understand feeling this way, nothing positive is going to happen while this continues. It's not fair at all, I know, but life rarely is.

Your D-day was of such a type that I don't think it could be worse. It may very well be possible that you will *never* get over it. If that's the case, you really need to think about removing yourself from the situation before your rage gets out of control.

At this point, you need to be very introspective and honest in trying to figure out exactly what you want and need. What within the realm of possibility can put you on the road to being whole?

Your humble correspondent...

YOu can't survive in a M where one of you is in a constant state of indebtedness (you OWE me). Nobody wins, and everybody loses.

I am a FWW. My husband (while he did not physically witness the affair, it was with someone known to him and lives directly across the street from our house) I'm sure felt the same way as Krazy. I think ALL men have a certain amount of territorialism associated with their wives and PART of the problem is that some other man TOOK something that BELONGED to him. I can understand this in a fundamental, caveman kind of way.

I guess what I am saying is that IF Krazy knows he will not get past this (and I don't know whether he KNOWS this or not, but I suspect that he's thinking he's never going to get past it) then staying just to prove a point or to force her into submission (not physically, obviously, but psychologically) isn't doing anybody any good.

There are some people that CANNOT get past an affair. And that is perfectly okay. Not everybody can get "over" it. And I have seen examples of supposedly "recovered" relationships on this board in which the BH definitely settles for crumbs and continues to be trampled and mistreated by their "F"WW. And I believe that is wrong too, on the WW's part.

If either party does not truly, willingly, want to be in the relationship and to do the work that needs to be done to recover, then recovery will never be successful...no matter how pretty you can dress it up. By the same token, if one member of the relationship continues to abuse the other (even emotionally "...like licking a public urinal...") then recovery will not happen either.

In this case, I don't believe Krazy wants to do the WORK necessary to recover his marriage. He truly and honestly believes that it is HER job, and only HER job, to to ALL of the work to recover the marriage. I'm simply saying he is going to be extremely disappointed at how things turn out in the end.

He doesn't want to follow the MB principles. He came here for advice, but absolutely REJECTS the ideas of MB. If he doesn't want to do any of the MB work, then I truly don't see how we can help him.

It gives him a boost to have all the guys tell him he's right (and I'm NOT AT ALL saying that his feelings are not justified, ******, I'd probably have walked away and never looked back if I personally saw this)...but that won't fix his marriage either.

I think that is was not your typical emotional affair as noted by Krazy....with deep emotional connection between his wife and OM

Krazy's wife used the OM for pure sexual gratification...there could even be aspects of sado/masochism issues here...

she may have taken great risks to herself...her own life and her childs...(I believe she was pregnant as well during this....)and her spouses...

this arises the possible issues that a spouse USES sex for purposes other than intimacy and and closeness...but to meet other needs..

need for pain
need to be degraded, controlled
need to be scared need to be risky...

she may very well have those types of needs....
and it may be she can not get those fullfilled by her spouse...because he isn't that type of man...

she loves him
she trusts him..

and could never ever treat him like the OM
OR
let herself be treated that way by him...

this issue goes way deeper than an enthusiastic partner...based on the relationship of the her and OM...

you can not veiw one sided snippits and and boil it down to such black and white...truths....

there is no doubt that the OM met some type of need in his wife for her to do what she did....

but that doesn't mean we or even he really knows what that need is...at this point...



even if she was in to really creepy control pain stuff..that doesn't mean she has to have it ...but it may mean that she never can get those things from her spouse...and there for may never be able to treat her spouse the way she treated her OM..especially if there were control and pain and or dominance issues....

but she can get other things...if there is willingness from both to work together...
things of great meaning and value in her relationship with her husband...

but may never be the same to the OM..cause that may have been some thing totally different than intimate sex...

Ark

Well see now I think she DOES need to essentially bow down and beg his forgiveness...Remember that Dr. Harley compares adultery to rape or the death of a child...It simply IS that serious...The way I see it as a FWW, forgiveness over an affair is NOT owed, it is a GIFT...It should be earned through "just compensation" which would indicate genuine remorse and repentance...I wonder what, if anything, Krazy's wife is doing towards helping him to heal...Does she tell him how incredibly remorseful that she is? Does she show him?

And my understanding of Krazy's wife's affair is this...She planned it...It was premeditated...sex for sex's sake...There was no emotional connection to OM...Krazy doesn't believe in the "fog" and you know what? In his case I'm not sure that I would either...When I think about his wife's affair I liken it to what it would feel like to have your spouse go to that heinous website AshleyMadison.com and just go looking for any person to get it on with...Right or wrong there is a part of me that sees his wife's affair in a bit of a different category than your run of the mill affair...And I would be ANGRY too...and DEVASTATED...and CONFUSED...and all sorts of other jumbled up feelings...

I could be wrong, but I don't think Krazy is saying that he now has earned the right to behave anyway that he wants-If that was the case I guess he'd be out having an affair of his own or beating her...It's been my understanding that Krazy uses MB to vent his anger and hurt over what he's been subjected to...I don't think he has been taking this out on her...In fact I wonder if she even knows how devastated that he is. I wonder if she realizes that they are at an "impasse"...Does she know what he needs to heal? I think she should know...I hope that Krazy is telling her...I hope that she is reading books, in IC, doing everything in her power to be transparent with him...I hope she is telling him how grateful that she is to have him as her husband...And I think she should be breaking her neck to meet his needs...She should be LEADING this recovery imo...Figuring out why she behaved as she did...

All that being said, I do know that recovery is very much a TANDEM effort...You do have to give to get...I know that for us many of my actions towards Mr. W came because of his actions towards me, and vice versa...Also I got to know how much I hurt him, he told me, but I also I was allowed to read his journals from that time period...That brought me to a place of much empathy for him...It showed me just how egregious my actions had been...So I think it's important that they both be radically honest with one another...

Krazy, have you considered calling Steve Harley? Would your wife be open to that? I really think that could put you guys on the right path...get you on the same page so to speak...

Mrs. W

Nowhere does Dr. Harley state that a WS need to apologize. Certainly he recommends it, but he also recommends the BS apolgize the the WS for failing to meet important emotional needs that were promised at the time of marriage.

Krazy, if you don't want your wife anymore after what happened, then leave her. Simple as that.

If you do still want her, for any reason, even if only for the sake of the kids, then get your a$$ in gear and change your expectations.

Excerpts from Dr. Harley:

"I hope by reading these letters, you can see the emotional turmoil that infidelity inflicts on the remaining spouse. It is without a doubt the most painful form of abuse that one spouse can inflict on another. Many have told me that they would rather have been permanently crippled than to have experienced the unfaithfulness of their spouse. And yet, if love is to be restored to the marriage, the response to this suffering must be kindness, patience and understanding. It goes against all of our instincts to respond this way, but in most cases, it works."

"When you have this discussion, there is the Taker in you (see the Giver & Taker in my Basic Concepts) that will tell you to express your resentment over how much she has hurt you. Your Taker may even encourage you to let her lover have this ungrateful woman, so that you can find someone who will love you the way you are. You will be tempted to lose your temper, to say disrespectful things, try to straighten her out, and give her ultimatums.

If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere.

On the other hand, if you can convince her that her feelings are important to you, and you are dedicated to make decisions that are in her best interest, it will add greatly to your credibility. Right now, she is not convinced that you have put her first in your life. Convince her otherwise."

I suggest reading all the letters from "what to do with an unfaithful wife". I doubt you will, though, and if you do, I doubt you will take anything to heart.

You are exactly where I was at several months after my D-day. My FWW couldn't stand how I was treating her, which was really just more of the same crappy way I treated her before her A - arrogant, demanding, unsympathtic, and rude. And I felt justified in doing it.

Until I came home one night to an empty house. Yep - she Plan B'd ME. Only her Plan B quickly turned into Plan D, and now she is living happily ever after with the OM, who welcomed her back with open arms.

Again, if you don't want your wife, LEAVE HER! Otherwise, don't be surprised if she leaves YOU.

AOK

TOS rules:

Last warning MEDC. Do not touch a moderator's edit on your post.


REALLY? Wow...that is NOT a consistent rule. Is that in the terms of service?

**********
If you don't find credibility in my words, then you don't find credibility in Harley's, since I did little more than cut and paste his advise to other betrayed men.

Furthermore, if a string of edits renders my posts "incredible", ****edit*********

This is an OPINION board...

people here should be allowed to give their opinion...

it is my opinion that sometimes people may hear a story and feel that perhaps their marriage should not be built...

and others may feel that there is plenty to build on..

or that some may offer things not so much in the marriage builders way...but no more or less dangerous or damaging than any other advice...

but tit for tat
this or that
here or there...

they are all opinions...

and each is as entitled to theirs as the next...

and the poster who receives an opinion...holds the onus...
to decide from what they read ...what they choose to do or not to do...

my opinion also is that most importantly people should NOT ever make huge decisions without seeking counsel....advice from real life people...and those that love them that can offer their in put as well....and the objective as well the subjective...


ALL are guests of the Harley's...not of anyone elses...
and the modirators should be the ones to deal with the extremely extremely rare poster who have a specific harmful agenda....

THIS post of Aaron's...
broke no rules of the board...

and as much value as any one elses OPINIONS...

ARK

Wow, thanks for your learned words Ark. There is nothing in my post...or my expressed opinion that violates the TOS. I am suggesting that a poster check something out.

Your view of my posts is really not of interest to me. They are also none of my business.

If you have a problem with my posts in the future, I suggest you take it up with a moderator. Perhaps the edits of your posts in a recent thread, which were directed towards me, should provide to you a clue that your words were a violation of the TOS.

Excerpts from Dr. Harley's Surviving an Affair:
(Page 84, hardcover edition)

Is an Apology Necessary?

A betrayed spouse usually expects their wayward spouse to express guilt and remorse over the pain inflicted by the thoughtlessness of the affair.
<...>
It's very common for the wayward spouse to not feel remorse.
<...>
I've found that an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair. Of course, if remorse is actually felt by a spouse, I encourage that spouse to express it. I would like the wayward spouse to apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust and for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. But I would also like the betrayed spouse to apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that he or she had promised at the time of marriage, even if the failure was out of ignorance.


Dr. Harley does say that if the WS doesn't feel remorse, then he doesn't recommend that they just mouth the words.

I think that an ongoing lack of apology would a real hard pill to swallow for a great many folks.

I can only assume that the Harleys have actually dealt with enough couples and infidelity to know that it is possible and to still have something that qualifies as a good marriage (as determined by the couple) as opposed to one of bare toleration.

I think that is the general conception according to MB.

OTOH, with or without an apology, I think Krazy has way too much going on within and without to not call on and get help from people who can assist him with this.

Whether he chooses to stay in the marriage or divorce, this level of anger is not just going to dissipate without some assistance, IMO. And not finding some way to process it leaves his health - physical, mental and emotional - in a very vulnerable place.

Anger can kill.

I didn't say that Krazy's wife should just "mouth" the words...I SAID that it is my opinion that she should actually BE remorseful and say it and show it-From my own experience, I personally cannot imagine not feeling remorse...not expressing that remorse-having an affair was the WORST thing that I have ever done-it is unfathomable to me not to provide a truly heartfelt apology...I said that Krazy's wife should provide him with "just compensation"...I stand by MY OPINION...Thanks for your concern about my opinion graplin...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

He actually says it's not ALWAYS necessary for marital recovery. By extension, it would seem clear that sometimes marital recovery is IMPOSSIBLE without an apology.

That would be me.

TOS rules:
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly "false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

Lux et veritas. I would like to hear what was ABUSIVE about my post. I suggested to another poster to check a posters history before taking their words to heart. WHAT is abusive (since you wanted to add drama and highlight that word) about that? I attempted to email you and found no address at which to reach you.

You had said,

And Dr. Harley writes that marriages can and do recover from heinous betrayal even without an apology from the wayward.

It would not be my cup o' tea to go forward without remorse pretty early in the recovery process, but as I noted, Dr. Harley must have observed many couples who have recovered their marriages without an apology.

:shrug: YMMV



I didn't question your opinion, and IMO you are free to stand on it, next to it, or under it. Nor did I express any concern about your opinion.

As ark has noted, "This is an OPINION board...

people here should be allowed to give their opinion..."

And my opinion in response to "need to essentially bow down and beg his forgiveness" is that Dr. Harley wrote in SAA:

"I've found that an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair. Of course, if remorse is actually felt by a spouse, I encourage that spouse to express it. I would like the wayward spouse to apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust and for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. But I would also like the betrayed spouse to apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that he or she had promised at the time of marriage, even if the failure was out of ignorance."

I think Krazy's situation is well beyond being solved by an apology, remorseful or otherwise, IMO.

And everyone has the option of disagreeing, agreeing or not expressing an opinion at all.

I hear people say all the time on this board, that Dr. Harley's program is counterintuitive....and it is. It's one of the things that makes it so unique. I think it's one of the things that also makes it work I know everyone probably knows what this means....but just so we're on the same page and speaking the same language I want to share the definition from several dictionaries:

*contrary to what common sense would suggest
*contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate
* contrary to an intuitive belief or to common-sense expectations

What this means (I think) as it applies infidelity....is that what intuition or common sense might tell us we should do....is not what Dr. Harley often tells us TO do. When our spouse cheats on us....especially in the kind of traumatic way that Krazy's wife did....our instincts kick in (as they do for any threat) with a fight or flight response. Our common sense might tell us that our wayward spouse should do this or that....and they SHOULD.

But I think what Dr. Harley's program is all about....is the fact that our instincts (as it relates to recovering from (not detecting) infidelity) will usually get in the way of recovery. For instance....Plan A is all about doing what ISN'T expected.....because what most people do (rage, cry, beg, lash out, punish etc.) just doesn't yield good results for many people. Some people can use ultimatims, punishment, separation etc....and get their spouse back....but not most people. We don't need a counselor to tell us to get pissed off and make demands....we could do that all on our own. We need this stuff....because it's....counterintutive and it works.

I completely agree with everyone who said Krazy's wife should be begging her husband to keep her. She should be a tiger in the bedroom. She should do anything he wants. But what I learned from Dr. Harley....was that expectations about what a wayward spouse SHOULD do....is hardly ever what they do. And in order to get the kind of results he gets....you have to forget the shoulda woulda coulda....and concentrate on counterintuitive measures that get better results.

For instance....exposure. Exposure is VERY counterintuitive. When people have affairs....the tendency is to tell no one. Keep the dirty little secret quiet. Don't tell the kids. Don't tell the neighbors. Common sense and intuition might lead you to believe that the less people know the better. But that's not what works.

Krazy's wife deserves his anger. And Krazy deserves to BE angry. That's what common sense says, and that's the reality. But his intuition in that angry and threatened state probably won't help Krazy save his marriage.

There are spouses who have deep remorse and work very hard to show their willingness to work on the marriage. That's a betrayed spouses best case scenario. Those folks have the best chance of surviving an affair. They can benefit from Dr. Harley....but they are already on the right track. But there are an awful lot of wayward spouses who aren't remorseful....and I think those were the people that Dr. Harley really thought needed help. Rather than tell these people that they should just dump their spouse. Common sense would tell you that they aren't worth it. He didn't say that. His program took a completely different approach. He asked for apologies and forgiveness from both sides. He asked for an end to love busting and hurting each other. And he asked that betrayed spouse be willing to lead the marriage to recovery EVEN if the wayward spouse was not remorseful and not yet committed. He didn't say to do it forever. He didn't say to do it if you can't. Krazy may be one of those people who can't....at least right now....but making demands, or having expectations about his WW, or punishing her (despite the fact that she may deserve it) will not help.

My husband was not very remorseful for long. On d-day....sure....but when the drama faded....I really didn't see a whole lot of heartfelt contrition. But I was patient. And I followed this plan to recovery....and the day DID come where he finally told me what I needed to hear. That would never have happened if I had railed, raged and punished him. I allowed myself to do those things for about 5 hours....and then I looked for something more constructive to do.

Krazy....if you come back. I don't want to feed your anger. I don't blame you for being krazy-mad....but what grows is what we feed. If you want love to grow...and you want your wife to desire you....you have to feed those things. It's not easy....because you're the one whose been the most hurt....but you're also the one who is most capable of guiding this marriage in the right direction.

I'm worried about the intensity of your anger...for you. Who can you talk to who is a calming and grounding force in your life right now?

good post SF.

graplin...

I certainly KNOW what Dr. Harley has said-He says that an apology is "not always necessary" which implies that it sometimes IS necessary-I would venture to guess that even MANY times it is necessary in fact...I am stating MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS on this...I can tell you that *I* personally would NEED an apology to recover...*I* have given MANY apologies in our recovery, because TO ME it was necessary...Based on what Krazy has posted, I think he may feel the same regarding his situation, but only he can truly answer that...

Now, perhaps you will be relieved to learn that it is unnecessary for you to post just for the sake of contradicting my opinion-I'm all set! Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Perhaps you will realize that I will post what I choose to post and whether or not it agrees or disagrees with your opinion is neither here nor there, nor under your control.

Nor do I ask for or require your assessment or permission of what is necessary or unnecessary for me, in order for me to have the option to post.

And whether or not I make a direct response to you, is also not under your control. As if you have never posted an opinion in disagreement with another member - or are your opinions somehow sacrosanct and above disagreement?

Don't think so.

Your opinion was not the only one asserting that an apology was necessary. That you happened to be the last in line when I started my response is just the luck of the draw - sometimes it really isn't about you.

In your rush to make an issue where none existed, you seem to keep editing out the part in which I have said that I would personally need remorse/apology at some point before I would consider the marriage recovered. I totally agree that some marriages will not be restored without repentance. I also acknowledge that there will be marriages with very repentant WSs that also will not be restored.

Krazy may very well be one of those people who cannot continue without receiving remorse, apologies as well as what he feels has been denied him.

There is also a percentage of BS who cannot get over it, no matter how repentant and remorseful the WS might be. And it's not that the BS doesn't try. And Krazy may very well be one of those folks.

Feeding his existing anger about what his wife should be doing and how beggingly she should be doing it isn't conducive to either his healing or the marriages, IMO. Your opinion can vary.

But, none of us on this forum are, as far as I know, in some higher plane of existence, and their posts held in such high esteem that no one can disagree with them.

The way it works is this. Anyone can post an opinion and anyone can post an opinion that disagrees. You can post, I can post, all God's children can post.

Your opinion may vary. And since it isn't all about you and whether I can disagree with your opinions, I personally intend to return the thread back to Krazy's concerns and not yours.


Krazy, I strongly encourage you to seek assistance on the level of anger that you are currently experiencing. I am not judging or asserting that you should not feel this level of anger, I am only expressing concern that not only is it not healthy for you, it is downright dangerous.

Sorry you're having such a bad night graplin! Cheer up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

U 2 Mrs. W (re: the cheer up part) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok Krazy, this thread is about you so here's my input. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Remember these are just my observations so just take what helps and feel free to discard the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The following suggestions are to help you get back on track. It is easy to get lost in he said, she is, she said he is, etc.... it gets quite mind boggling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So it may be better to attack this with a plan. The plan is to identify where you need to work on stuff, get you to work on your personal improvements thereby setting a goal for your W to see. If she takes notice, you may become attractive to her as it s/b and in turn she can have the opportunity t/become attractive 2 u. Then even the SF stuff will fall into place, easier.

1. Have you identified your personal & marital boundaries?
2. Have you and your W taken the Emotional Needs Questionnaire? If she won't, you take it 2 times, once as yourself and 2nd time as her. Compare it. It c/b an eye opener.
3. Read HNHN (His Needs/Her Needs) by Dr Harley. Learn HOW to communicate with your W in a way that is more in tune with her feminine side. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

4. Give Steve H a call. See if he can help you get a good plan A completed and then reassess your status.

You may find yourself in a better position to make a good life changing decision.

JMHO,
L.

Back atcha Orchid sweetie! I know you've been havin' a bad time lately...I hope you've gotten that all straightened out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

What bad time? Good weather.....good food, fun in the sun, a little precipitation and lots of double rainbows. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

K71,

How are you doing?

L.

Hello all.

Yep, I have anger issues, obviously. I talk to my W about it, but I try to avoid showing anger towards her as best I can. She is remorseful. For the most part, she is a good FWW, if there is such a thing. I'm trying harder to focus on what she's doing right...I love her, and I don't want the M to end. I just hope I can "get over it" eventually. I don't know if I have that in me or not.

I think some of you may have misunderstood me. I have never expected my W to be at my beckon call. I've never expected her to have sex when she doesn't want to. Despite how I appear on this board, I don't have a scowl on my face 24/7, and I don't hate my wife. I do think that the way I found out...being completely blindsided by walking in on the act...has done some serious damage to my psyche. Once my financial situation is a bit more stable, I plan to go to a MC and maybe an IC.

Since spewing anger and venom isn't in the spirit of this forum, I will limit it from now on. It might help me, but I can see how my words might cause others to trigger, or make them feel uneasy. I apologize for that.

I appreciate all the replies and the concern. I really do.

Krazy, you are understandably hurt and devastated. I don't know that others have been triggered, or even if they have been upset by the anger you have expressed, my concern was for your own emotional/mental health. Your hurt over not receiving what was given to another is also understandable.

I have seen many BWs hurt to the core when they discovered their WH was spending hours talking to the OW, sending love notes & gifts, speaking lovingly and being emotionally engaged in ways that they had never received from him and had always longed for. What they and what you are having to deal with isn't an easy gig and there seems to be no place to scream out the pain. You can't just squelch it, or get over it, or move past it - you have to go through it. I only hope that you can find a way to do so that truly brings healing to you and isn't just a bandaid over it, KWIM?

You have to keep it all together at home, so it's not a bad idea to have some place to let down the armor for a little while. Perhaps you just need a way to do so without hurting yourself more in the process.

Do you believe that if she did become more sexually engaged (creative, uninhibited, ?) with you, would it help you?

Like graplin, I only want for YOU to feel better. This does require finding the root of the anger and walking thru it. There is no way around it; wish there was. My concern is for you, Krazy.

You didn't trigger me, just reminded me OF me, and I HATE knowing that so many others have or are experiencing this sort of devastation. It has torn me down to my core, and I'm rebuilding. I wanna be like Steve Austin, minus the whole cyborg thing. I wanna be better than before the affairs.

I hope for you that you can find a better way, for you.

Krazy, this is exactly the place to vent your frustrations. Please don't temper your wrath for our benefits. You need to let go, let go here where no real damage is done.

Krazy
all the best for your marriage.. I just did a quick read of your situation and here are some ideas..
COUNSELING ic and mc fort sure..please
ic FOR sure.. on the anger stuff
also PHSICAL activity.. get into a boxing class
kick boxing or some such..
combat is GOOD for males.jogging will dispate anger
be sure to geta DOCS checkup.. and be supervised if you do it Intensly..
get some psych insight into a males attitudes
all the best
jerseyboy

Now my FWW says she has zero sex drive. Absolutely zero desire to touch or be touched by anyone, especially me. Partially because of the pregnancy, but mostly because of the way I've treated her since d-day. I've been difficult to live with, of course. Who wouldn't be? Maybe some BS's handle things in a more effective manner, but I feel like I've already scaled Mount Everest. Barefoot. With a cactus jammed in my [censored].

She says that if I will treat her "better", she will try to "fake it until she makes it". I guess that's better than not trying at all, but am I out of line in feeling a tremendous amount of disrespect in the whole "fake it til you make it" philosophy. If you eat feces every day for enough years, you WILL get used to it. Whoopie! There's nothing hotter than a woman who's willing to choke back her vomit long enough for me to get off. I can hardly wait.

Then there's the whole "bestowing the gift of sex upon me if I EARN it" issue rearing its ugly head again. Once again, I do the work (change my attitude, treat her better), and her end of the deal is to have sex. See the disparity there?

Am I being overly sensivite? Should I be grateful for whatever she deems me worthy of, like a dog catching table scraps? Should I see a red flag? Shouldn't she have to do something besides A) Not cheat and B) Reward me for being a good boy?

I'm being punished for my reaction to her affair, which is about a hair's width from being punished FOR her affair.

Krazy,

I do not think you are being overly sensitive but i do know from a female perspective WE are VERY different when it comes to SF.

If i am upset with my H for any reason there is NO WAY IN H@LL I AM GOING TO SATISFY HIM. Maybe your FWW is feeling the same way.

I think we BSs do take our anger with us everywhere even though we try not to. Maybe she feels like you are "punishing" her for her A (not saying i don't understand because i am right there with you).

I think maybe we both need to take a break from recovering our M and see where life takes us. I don't mean give up the marriage just kind of be to ourselves a little more and make THEM think about it for a while. I don't know if that is the right thing or not but right now i am trying anything to quit being so miserable all the time.

your wife is abit too full of herself. Frankly, I am not sure how you have hung in this long with such a gem for a spouse!


No.



Exactly

When I bring up the fact that she risked her family and our health to sleep with someone she barely knew, she says something like, "Well, he never put me down or made me feel awful!"

That might make some sense, except that they never had any lenghty conversation, or spent more than a few minutes together. Of course they didn't fight. If all I had to do was make a phone call or talk to her for 10 minutes then get laid, I'd never fight with her either. No guy would. Of course the s.o.b. was nice.

Yeah, I've told her all of this to her face. More than once.

MEDC,

What would you say to her when she tells me that I have to earn what I get?

Assuming you wanted to fix the M and the SF, of course.

Why are you still with a woman that is justifying her affair and not meeting your needs?

Of course he didn't put her down...she was nothing more than a piece of [censored] to him...why should he put her down?

So, why are you torturing yourself to be with this "woman?"

That would be the last straw for me.

She doesn't respect you and until you send her packing, she won't. This woman should not look upon your face one more time until she gets her head out of her [censored].

omg, i agree with medc 150%.

where the f does she get off saying that?
you have to "earn" it?

i would have told her it was the other way around.

she would have gotten an earful and her suitcase in her hand.

she still has the attitude of entitlement. she was entitled because you weren't who she wanted you to be.

i am getting pretty ticked at her right about now.

mlhb

Hi Krazy. Read a good deal of your thread. It's an unfair fact that the BS has to work so hard to repair something that the WS did. Acceptance of that will help everything else you try to do.

Your anger is understandable, I know. There were 6 OM for my wife. She was worse than yours. They were strangers. Very early in your thread someone asked if there was a history of sexual abuse in your wifes life. Have you explored that? My wife was abused by her own father. Sometimes that comes out in wierd ways later in life as the victims guilt and self-hatred get greater. Not an excuse, but something to think about.

I look at my wife today, I see the little girl in her bed pulling her covers over her head as daddy comes in and closes the door, not the self-hating woman who meets a complete stranger in a parking lot and f's him in his car.

It's all about our love for our spouse. Is your love bigger than your anger?

I hope you find peace.

This is a collaborative effort type thing, Krazy, FIXING a marriage. You cannot do it alone, it won't work. Had I known months ago when you started posting that she was telling you you needed to earn it and justifying her A by stating things like OM wasn't mean to her, I would have told you to at least detach from her. If you still choose to remain in the home, then it's time for 180, IMO. She sounds like she could EASILY slip into another A.

To be fair, it's not like we've been celibate, and she never actually said, "You have to earn it".

She also only says things like, "At least he didn't insult me!" after I bring up that OM didn't have to try like she's wanting me too.

I'm not unreasonable. I don't expect her to want SF when I'm being an a$$, and I am quite a bit.

She really isn't justifying her A...she knows better. I think at times like that she's just angry and lashing out.

I may have been too biased with my post...the bottom line is that she feels beaten down due to how I treat her, which caused her sex drive to crash through the floor. She agrees to fake it if my treatment of her improves.

Female WS have it far easier than male WS's in the bedroom, I suppose. They STILL get to call all of the shots.

That is, as long as I decide to take it.

Krazy,

I hear you ... you were upset and may have embellished the conversation between you and your W due to your anger.

However, even with that in mind, I have to agree with the others. Man, you've tried your heart out, but you're killing yourself. I've been one of your biggest cheerleaders ... you are a damn fine man to have tolerated what you have, but you are not getting better ... in fact, I've noticed a downturn in your mood through the tone of your recent posts.

Please, protect yourself and at least, consider moving on with your life. You're a good man that deserves more than what life threw at you.

Distance yourself from the source of your anger/misery.

Ok, well in that case, you need to stop bringing OM into your lives by talking about him, and using his short existence in your wife's life as ammunition againt her. Certainly, I advocate bringing up problems and triggers, but saying nasty things to your wife is OUT.

Would you have treated her this way pre-A? Why start now?

Sure, raise the bar, but don't slap her with it every chance you get. When you feel anger raising and you are about to say something nasty, WALK AWAY.

Hi Krazy:

You know I think you are doing pretty well. I saw this quote and it sure brought back memories of my marriage.

Wouldn't it be great as a guy if you could just say: "Well I will go to work and bring home a paycheck for you this month if you treat me right and have plenty of sex with me. Not just cause I want to but because you love me and want too also. If you do not want to meet my needs then I really don't feel like going to work anymore until things change.

Can you imagine what that would do to marriages? But some how if it is sex that is being withheld it is not so bad.

That I guess would have been my fantasy. To have my wife go to work and pay the bills why I golf all day. And if she does all of that and support me well then I will go ahead and have SF with her. Even if I don't enjoy it but I will do it.

There is really nothing you can do about it. Nothing I did ever helped my situation and I tried a lot of different things including counseling. The only thing I will say is if you allow her to do it (or not do it) that is what she will do.

I had the same problem pre-affair but she chose to find another guy to have SF with instead of me. If a woman does not want to have sex with you there is little that can be done.

Now having said that there is a lot she can do to change things. When I filed fo divorce my now XW said she would do anything but for me I wanted out.

You have to decide what you will allow and can accept. Your only 2 choices are to leave or stay. No one can give her a pill to change she will have to do it on her own. If you are unwilling to leave if she does not change then there is nothing you can do.

Krazy71

I used to think that your posts and replies always had an element of anger that just seemed like it would never recede.
But now I believe I see from your W's statements to you, that it was indeed HER that was continuing to fuel this anger.

Had my W said things like that to me, I would have insisted she leave the family home. I would have packed her suitcases for her!

Your W still seems to be in a state of selfish entitlement and as such, expects you to " excuse" her adultry, rather than repenting and asking for full forgiveness.

I cannot see how this could ever be sucessful in restoring your M. It will not work!

Your W is pregnant and I can see how very much you want this to work, but it is your W who has the lion's share of earning to be done, not you!

Hang in there, but consider the need to radically change all of this in the very near future.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Nah, I treated her like a queen.

I started on d-day, when my life was shattered.

But you are right. I should stop bringing up OM. It's just not easy when I feel like he and my W caused all of this, and I've got to clean up the mess, so to speak.

She didn't exactly fuel my anger. My anger was/is like a nuclear reactor. It keeps going all on its own. My anger has caused problems, no doubt. I have been guilty of being too angry, too resentful, and plain mean. I have also been guilty of punishing her, although it wasn't a conscious effort at the time.

Oh, and she's not pregnant now...I was referring to her last pregnancy...our daughter is 15 months old now and doing well. My W was about 6 weeks along and knew it, when I busted her on d-day.

Once again,
It is your W who has the lion's share of cleaning up the mess she left in the wake of her A.


all blessings,
Jerry

How hard would she fight you for custody and division of assets? Have you guys discussed D at all? Do you live in a fault state?

It's truly whacked how the courts don't take adultery into account. She can have all the fun of an affair, dictate the terms of recovery, and when you've had enough and pull the D trigger she will likely get the children and half of everything. Charming.

They certainly caused all the trauma that you are living with. You didn't DO that to yourself.

In this state, we'd have joint custody and split the assets 50/50, unless I become a crack dealer or something.

So why are you still there?

Not taking into account what she's done or what's she's doing... answer this:

Do you love her? Did you mean it when you got married?

How long will you hold onto your anger?

Even if you divorce, will the anger go away?

How does all this anger in your marriage affect your daughter? Kids know more than you think they do, even little ones.

How long does this go on?

What are you going to do about it?

This is no way to live.

OK, gotcha now. WOW, it almost feels good to hear from someone just like I was. My anger and DJ and LB hit it's peak at two years from DDay. For the record, I am now closing in on 6 years from DDay.

Didn't have this place for the first couple of years. Wish I had, the voice of reasoning so to speak .

Takes a man(or woman) a long time to soften their heart after infedelity. A very long time. Anyone who tells you they are completely R'd after two years, is IMO, simply trying their best to convince themselves of that. (No disrespect meant to those who feel that way).

I hate when folks say everything will be honky dorry after two years. It just isn't so, IMHO. But that's just me.

I still to this day have issues, but that is my problem. I think part of your anger is that you somehow EXPECTED more of yourself. I know I certainly did. Simply didn't happen that fast.

Can you be patient for now? Find other avenues to direct your anger and bitterness. Ever thought about getting a punching bag to really work out your frustarations on. It really does work.

If I can help, call out.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Wow Jerry thanks for saying that about being angry for expecting more from YOURSELF. I would have to agree with that statement.

I am pretty close to being as angry as Krazy is although i will admit that i no longer say things about the OW (but then again i didn't walk in on it either). I have finally decided to not let her have anymore of my life she took enough already. I am not sure what i would do if i saw her in a dark alley though

I figured that once i decided i would forgive my H and let him come home and try to work on our M my anger would ease, but it hasn't and i did expect more from MYSELF.

I don't think I'm angry at myself for the lack of progress, just angry about it in general. I thought after 2 years things would be far better than they are.

Instead, on a good day I only think about the A a few times, and wish death on OM once or twice.

I can hold a job and not kill anyone, so I'm hesitant about ADs...besides, I don't want anything dulling my pain. I will learn from this pain...I already have to a certain extent.

This was excellent, graplin.....something I am dealing with and will continue for awhile (its all about me right.... ;)). And the worst part is if WS DOES in fact do those things for you, it only seems to make things worse.....how to get out of this tangled-web they weaved?????

Krazy....

I hear ya man. I haven't posted to you, and my first thoughts when you wrote this many months ago, "what an [censored]". But then I see that your anger is not so very different from my own. And unfortunately, I HAVE expressed it to WS. So I say better here than there.....

praying for ya....

not2fun

Krazy and Crazy,
Stop thinking your are somehow K R A Z Y!!!!!!!

I'm here to tell you what it took me so many years to truly discover. Anyone who is COMPLETLY recovered after two years is not normal, IMHO. They are kidding themselves into thinking that it is now over, but they are also lying to themselves just to get along.

Don't believe me, ask Bob Pure if he feels that way after 4 plus years. He finally admited that he is hurting like hell.

this doesn't go away overnight and trying to put a timeline to it simply doesn't work.

I so remember the song " Mr bojangles" where his dog up and died,,,,, and after twenty years he still grieves.

Don't put yourself into some outside imposed timeline. It will take you as long as it takes. Period!!

Just my humble thougts,

All Blessings,
Jerry

I have to say the first six months after I found out about my FWW I really was basing my recovery on the fact I didn't kill anyone that day, it was a good day overall. It actually scared me that even though I really only wanted to see one certain man stop breathing after various torture techniques spread out over a week or so, I found myself having to control my anger/rage/murderous intent with clients at work, friends, waiters, bus drivers, domino's pizza delivery etc I fully understand the term "blind rage" now.

I think you have learned a great deal already if you walked in on your pregnant wife and you're not in prison right now.

That's precisely what I'm trying to convey to you Krazy.

You put certain expectations on yourself and your R that were unrealistic and not in keeping with your perssonality.

Now you need to get real and learn the difference.

All blessings,
Jerry

sh@@, this ain't easy stuff is it?

Krazy,

Do you WANT to recover your marriage?

Have you been to MC or IC?

Have you counseled with the Harleys?

If I knew where you guys lived, I'd be tempted to drive over there right now and just kick your WW's butt. She has a lot of nerve to ask you to "earn" anything. I wish you could gain full custody of the kids and have her pay child support.

OK, sorry, I guess I'm not "Marriage Building" at the moment, but nothing makes me much madder than someone with such a sense of entitlement.

bumping for introvert.......

n2f

Wow. While skimming through this thread, I saw 2 or 3 versions of myself posting on it.

I'm amazed at how many people just assumed I was trying to force her to degrade herself, or do things she didn't want to do...even after clearly stating that was not the case.

I figured out one way of dealing with the situation: Play the "game" by her rules.

So, I've got to be Mr. Nice Guy...help around the house plenty, do extra stuff with the kids, appear to be doing OK, yadda yadda yadda.

So I do it. Not because I'm a good guy, or a doormat, or a sucker.

I ONLY do it to get laid more.

So, when she sees me folding laundry, she thinks, "That sure is nice of him!"

In my head, I know I'm only doing it to get some. Otherwise, I couldn't care less about going above and beyond the call of duty.

At least this way, the manipulation works both ways...but she doesn't know that. At least that's what I tell myself.

Is it working?

Krazy,

The very first time you posted this thread and I read it, well, you know I thought you were the biggest A$$, but as this thread went on and you posted other things, AND (and this was the clincher) as time wore on in my sitch and the ANGER finally came, I GOT IT.

Then my opinion of you changed, and now I really think you aren't the horrible guy your posts sometimes portray you to be........


now the manipulation part.......though I know we are "supposed" to meet EN'S "just because", but human nature just doesn't always work that way, does it???????


not2fun

....then Intro showed up

I have taken this a bit out of context but this part, I can relate to.

That is exactly how it is. My WW expects her EN's to be met 24/7/365. If I even look sad it's like it resets the clock for her. It takes her several days to become comfortable enough with me to have sex after we have even the most petty of negative events. I would say it pisses me off but really what it does is hurt me. She LB's me just as much as I do her yet I always jump right back into the bandwagon and strive to meet her EN's. No, I am not just doing it for sex like Krazy is, I don't feel like she owes me anything. It just sucks because everything seems like it is on her terms. Her needs must be met at all times, only after her needs are met are mine even considered. She slept with another man she had only met on the internet, a person who was full of sh*t and just lied to her when she was vulnerable to get sex, a man with a history of doing this. I can't just be OK 100% of the time yet that is what I am expected to be. I don't mind giving 50% or even 75% but on this front, I feel like I am giving 100% and getting absolutely no returns. I can keep it up for a while but every man has limits. I have needs that are just as valid as hers.

I'd like to thank you not2fun, for bringing my attention to this thread. My situation is a little bit different, but the conversation and advice brought forth in this thread is very helpful for me in my current situation. The posts by "BrambleRose" should be framed and hung on every BH's wall for future referrence....very insightful.

Thanks again