.

Whoo Hooo!!! Your very own thread!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As I told you on the other thread, I think it is a very wise choice to Plan A your husband...What did he list as his top ENs when you took the questionairre?

I would also ask you to look at how you used OM...I know you feel angry that he used you...But let's look at it from the angle that as a married woman you shouldn't have made yourself available to be used, yanno? You did know ahead of time who he was, even if that knowledge only included that he was willing to get involved with a married woman...Start with owning that Maggie and I think your anger will begin to turn to indifference...OM shouldn't be relevant in your life at all...Being angry with him keeps him as a focal point in your life, KWIM?

How is your husband dealing with all this?

Mrs. W

Good for you Maggie starting your own thread!

Why did you and your Husband not meet each other's EN's after you found MB?

I think Plan A'ing him will be a good idea for your marriage.

Post deleted by maggiemagster

Post deleted by maggiemagster

Your H blaming OM is pretty much a defence mechanism for him. He will eventually see this differently but it's OK for him for now.

Committing to your marriage is one thing (a good thing) but it's not enough.

If the underlying problems in your marriage are not addressed, this will recur.

You really should do the questionaires and make meeting each others EN's a priority. That will build your love for each other and put your marriage on a secure foundation.

Would he be willing to read and post here Maggie?

This can't be swept under the rug...His resentment will get in the way of recovery if he does that...Right now he is at the greatest risk of having a revenge affair...

Here he can get the help he needs...If that happens I would advise both of you not to post on the other's thread...

Mrs. W

.

Another reason to commit to a recovery plan and affair proof your marriage is that statistically your husband is the most likely person in your marriage to have the next affair...especially, if you just "sweep it under the rug". Imagine the justifications and rationalizations he can conjure up once presented with his own opportunity to step out of the marriage.

Something to think about.

Good luck Maggie...we are pulling for you.

Mr. Wondering

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Well Maggie do you know what his top ENs are?

You know you might put it into perspective for him saying, "I want to help you heal from the hurt that I inflicted on you...I want very much to meet your needs in the way that you want them met...You are important to me...We are important to me...I want to affair proof our marriage."

How do you think he would respond to something like that?

Mrs. W

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I agree with MrsW Maggie.

Just you do the questionaire for him to identify his needs and work on meeting those needs to the best of your ability.

Hopefully he will respond in time and will be open to meeting yours.

I don't think you can or should force anything. You seem to have the right idea here.

Not sure if you know this or not Maggie, but Dr. Harley says that we are all wired to have an affair...All it would take is for your husband to allow someone to start meeting his needs and blam...He is in a very vunerable state now whether he knows it or not...

Imagine if you will that some female at work were to tell your husband that her husband was cheating on her...Your husband then decides to share his experience with her...Little by little boundaries fall away...Presto, Affairville...

You both must have plans in place for an affair not to happen again...The conditions in the marriage that made your affair possible must be removed or it could easily happen again...MB has lays out those plans nicely...

Would he be willing to read Surviving An Affair? Something that is great is getting His Needs Her Needs on CD to listen to together on a roadtrip...You can pause to talk at different intervals...

Mrs. W

Hey maggie. Glad you started your own thread. Mrs Rock almost started one too. We'll see. She has posted on my thread a couple of times just recently.
I hope things are going well for you!
Rock

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.

Dear Maggie,

I am a formerly wayward wife. My marriage did not survive. Much of your story sounds familiar to mine. After my first A, my husband "forgave" me but he really wanted to just bury his head in the sand. He and I never really worked out the problems we had before the A.

As you are saying, you now recognize where you had rewritten your marital history during your A. But...please don't disregard all of it due to guilt for your A. Does that make sense? In other words, much of what you went through leading up to the A and you becoming unfulfilled is still true and will still be true now. You probably didn't rewrite that part. The part about feeling lonely as he worked late nights, feeling strange about earning more money, and feeling the needs that weren't being fulfilled as a loss in your life...it doesn't sound like those parts were rewritten.

My ex-husband loved me, no doubt, but he and I were not wise enough to realize that love was not enough. We did not put in the work that is needed to create a happy and loving and affair proof marriage. Eventually I had more affairs later in the marriage, but I never told him about them, and then finally I left and we are now divorced.

I can't really say I regret that I am divorced because I am happy now and I am with a new man and we are putting forth the effort it takes to have a happy marriage. However...what I regret is that when I was in YOUR SHOES, the very shoes you are in right now (post my first A and my husband was burying his head), I regret that we didn't go into immediate marriage counseling and stick with it. I regret that we didn't dig up all the things we needed to say to each other and say them. I regret that I was so happy to just be forgiven and felt so guilty that I fooled myself into thinking "everything is fine now". It was not fine, it was just in hiding.

I can see that you are really struggling to make sure that doesn't happen to you, so GOOD JOB. But please - if you aren't in counseling, you need to be, or eventually you may stray again. You need both IC and MC.

Your anger at the OM is misplaced, and you will know when you are truly healing when you no longer feel that way about him. When you only feel apathy and nothing more for the OM is when you are finally moving forward - a step at a time.

If you really want to stay married and find ways to be happy together, dig into yourself and find out more about YOU. Why you did this (the real reasons, not the incidental reasons), why your vow to your husband wasn't truly sacred (there is a reason for this, you need to find it out), and why you are letting your husband bury his head again (do you still feel so guilty that you feel you don't deserve his full attention?)

Swing Dancer

.

It's a term LA and her friends coined when they were referred to as Psychobabblers.

Maggie,

Be advised that SwingDancer is engaged to marry one of her ADULTERY PARTNERS...

Mrs. W

.

LA is actually capable of giving very good advice - if you can decipher it - but some people at least do avoid threads started by her so it's more generic if you like and you will get a wider range of opinion by having your own thread as you have done.

That is of course just my opinion.

Maggie - just to clarify - the man I am engaged to I did not meet until I had left my husband and we had been separated for 6 months. I never knew him before that. As a technicality, since I was still married at that time, some people would call this adultery. But I didn't leave my husband to be with this man.

Hang in there. I hope all goes well for you. I am glad you are in IC.

Swing Dancer

Well SD, lets continue to clarify shall we? You were separated from your husband due to your other adulteries...

From dictionary.com:

adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse...

That definition fits what you did SD...It's NOT just a technicality...Married IS Married...

Mrs. W

Excellent start to a Plan A Maggie!

Mrs. W

Hey what is Tom Yum soup Maggie? Recipe?

Mrs. W

not to mention swing-dancer's BH (who she cheated on multiple times) was looking towards reconcilliation while they were separated but her pesky new relationship didn't lead her to want to try that.

See Maggie - not all advice is equal.

.

OK Maggie - thankyou for your honesty. I would view this differently to SwingDancer and am happy to continue posting to you. Many people do this and while it is not wise, it's not something I have an issue with as such and am still happy to help you.

Agree with BK Maggie...

Mrs. W

.

.

Most IC's would warn you to have a break to heal from a previous relationship before starting a new one. Dr Harley says 1 year break for every 5 years of marriage.

.

Hi Maggie,

I have a question about the folks who 'supported' your adultery:

"I rewrote my history to everyone and had my friends, colleagues, and family cheering me on (some of them even expressed awe at what a "cougar" I was. *shudder*)"

I'm curious as to what your relationship with them is now?

Also, I liked the "clue-by-4's" terminology - clever LOL

Oh and I'm pretty sure SwingDancer told us that the man she is involved with now is still married...

Thanx for your honesty regarding your divorce from WXH and dating your current husband timeline.

.

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I think that you should do the questionnaire too...Quid pro quo and all...Dr. Harley says that complaints are GOOD, criticism isn't...Complaints let your partner know how to meet your needs...They are honest...They are a genuine effort to help the marital relationship...You and your husband should have a vested interest in the complaints of the other...It is an exercise in CARE...Marriage is a relationship of EXTRAORDINARY CARE...

Mrs. W

Hey Maggie - I think you are doing very well. Don't let him see your list as demands though.

Once He has done it you should discuss it and get him to tell you how HE would like you to meet his most important needs - maybe just 2 of them (the top 2) for a start. Then you make a PLAN on exactly how to do that for him.

There is no down side for him in this!

MM,

I just wanted to post a word of encouragement. I think you guys will make it.

BTW, dorry's excellent Recovery Guide for Wayward Wives is well worth reading.

- WG

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MM,

I just wanted to chime in, also. I am also a FWW who became a BW and am now divorced. I wish I could give you insight into why my marriage failed, but my ex and I have never discussed his affair.

I know that after we reconciled, I busted my butt to be the best wife and mother I could be. I plan A'd my whole family. I was ecstatic to be able to be the woman I had wanted to be and threw myself into my marriage and family.

I don't know how this affected my ex. We seemed blissfully happy for awhile. Neighbors and family commented often that they had never seen us so in love. Out of the blue, I discovered text messages from OW and it came to light that hubby was having an affair.

I am sure we didn't do the work to recover from my affair. Hubby said he didn't need to talk about it. We had seperated, we were both having affairs during the seperation, we decided we wanted each other-that's all he needed to know.

Even though my marriage didn't last, I do take some comfort in the fact that I did work 100% at it during the reconciliation. Even hubby said he had no complaints during that period, the only thing I had done wrong was to believe him when he said he was working late. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You said you didn't think you husband was capable of having an affair. That was my hubby exactly, no one was less likely to have have an affair. He shocked everyone with his affair.

Maybe when you are talking to your H, you could talk about affair proofing instead of just repair work. Maybe it bothers him that he has to do this "homework" because you screwed up.

I wish I knew what went wrong with me so I could tell you of future pot holes. In my case, I think hubby was just tired of doing the single dad thing, his girlfriend and he had broken up, he was just tired and lonely. I came to him ready and willing and humble and he just figured he would let me clean his house until his "true love" came along. (Of course, his affair didn't last, but that is another story)

Good luck to you and your husband.

((((jean36))))

Your story is really painful. I hope that you are finding joy in life now.

EN questionnaire went over like the hindenburg. We got to SF and there were too many landmines, we couldn't navigate. Everything will be ok, but I need to approach more slowly and carefully.

I think I finally see now that this will not be a quick process. I am going to regroup and get some sleep, I'll post more about it in the morning.

maggie"oh the humanity"magster

Maggie - you probably already know what his needs are.

Look on the bright side, you demonstrated to him that you CARE about him and want and are willing to meet his needs. Unless he's having an affair himself he will most probably welcome that.

God Bless.

Maggie,

I promised I would not do this, but this thread seems to be missing a few very important things for you and your H to address. I will go back into retirement after this post, but I hope it gives you some food for thought.

I will preface my comments by pointing out that recovery is a very narrow road and what it requires is the ability to see the road signs and what is causing them. I do think some counseling with a skilled counselor is going to be required and I hope what I am about to say supports this comment.

To sum up in a word what I sense is really wrong here is: RESPECT. Permit me to post what you started this thread with.

You said
The term "respect" pops into my mind. It is not uncommon for a man to feel loss of respect when they feel they are not really needed, and that their W is smarter and better educated than they are. Recall that most of us guys derive our identity from our work and our ability to support a family. If we feel we are failing, the stress and perhaps depression sets in.

Now it is common on this site for men to be counciled that for a woman to want to engage in SF they need to feel loved. What is not mentioned as often is that stress, depression, and fear often lead to men losing ability or interest in SF. See a pattern here?

Note your last comment about not meeting his needs. He met your greatest need by sending you to graduate school. I would bet good money he worried that you would find his lack of education a turn off.


Ok, next thing is clear. He worked hard TRYING to be someone you respected and perhaps needed, but I would bet good money he did not feel either.


Sort of reasonable, but did it cross your mind that he needed to be needed and was somewhat stressed and/or depressed? And then you become angry and resentful. You don't suppose he was resentful do you?


So man of choice is a convicted criminal (3 times), younger man, with a GED. I'm guessing your felt H really valued and respected at this point, given he had just lost out to a poorly educated criminal that was much younger than he was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />




Just for one minute, consider what it must have been like to have your W rub her affair in his face. Could you imagine how belittling this was? How little respect you showed him and yet he stayed.



So now your H wants to sweep it under the rug. He does not want to address this, do you have any idea why that might be?

Permit me to offer you a few possibilities.

1. He has NO respect for himself for putting up with what happened and not cleaning OM's clock and throwing you to the curb.

2. He has a lot of rage inside that he fears letting out. He fears it because it might well end the marriage, and he is not at all sure he can control it if he probes very deeply below the surface. You do know what drives anger right? It is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as fear, frustration, anxiety, pain. Think he felt/feels any of those things.

3. He might avoid addressing this for fear that you will come to realize what he thinks is true: you have no use for him, he is a failure in your eyes, and he could not compete with a uneducated criminal. Worse you left said criminal because he was lying to you if I recall. So a smoother man would have been your choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So Maggie, what is it that you do respect about your H?
Why do you feel he has a place in your life now?
What happens when you feel let down by him in the future? (you don't need him, he has been unemployeed, which further diminishes most men's sense of self-worth)

How do you respect a man you have so completely disrespected?

How does he respect himself for allowing this to happen and remain in this marriage?

If you want him to do more that sweep this under the rug, you had better be prepared for what is being held down inside of him right now. I would like you to show him my post to you and see if he thinks I am even close. I suspect I am. You probably won't need his answer, for if I am close to "some" of his thoughts you will see it in his eyes, you will see it in his body.

In many ways you have ripped off the family jewels and put them in a jar on the mantle for everyone to see. How is this going to be fixed?

I believe it can be fixed, but if I am at all right, the first thing you are going to have to address is the issue of respect. Yours for him, and he for himself. I think a skilled counselor can help alot here.

He is protecting himself and perhaps even you by trying to sweep this under the rug and you are right to recover this marriage these things need to be addressed, but they need to be done carefully. A lot of damage has been done and in some pretty cruel ways.

I do hope this post give you some new things to think about. He is not being just hard headed or even sticking his head in the sand. He is protecting himself and perhaps you and for a good reason.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I have not had the pleasure of going back and reading your posts. I have followed this link all day long and I just am truly saddened that you won't be sticking around.

I don't understand what happened to drive you away or if it was just time, but I do KNOW there many of us who are walking that narrow road and need your input.

I wish you could reconsider and know that you would be touching more people's lives and helping us to learn how to help others.

No pressure, but I am being selfish because I would love to have the opportunity for you to look at what I did to my H and see where I could make the true changes for the future.

Take care of yourself,
Skinsgal

...can't sleep, clowns may eat me...

JL, much of what you say could be true. I hadn't thought of it that way before (probably because my ICs have always labeled his behavior as passive aggresive, not the result of lack of respect.)

As I sit here and think, there are probably deeper FOO things afoot here, too. H's mom is very disrespectful to him. I did not have men that were worthy of respect around when I was growing up. I saw my mom struggle to provide for me with these men, and I thought: that will never be me! I own that, it's NOT an ok attitude.

"Why do you feel he has a place in your life now?
What happens when you feel let down by him in the future? (you don't need him, he has been unemployeed, which further diminishes most men's sense of self-worth)"

Because I respect his kindness, his values, his good attitude, his intelligence, his patience. I love having conversations with him, and I love holding him tight. I promised for better or worse. He's picked me up when I've fallen, and I can do the same for him.

I don't know why I feel the need to nit-pick this point, but I have tried to support him in going to school on several occasions - he always dropped out. Maybe I pounded his respect more by trying to provide for him in this way. I know that when he was supporting me through it I valued his contribution so much - that's why I worked so hard to make sure I did it completely and always tried to be the best at it. I can't imagine someone making that sacrifice for me and just not showing up for classes and then dropping out. And being given another opportunity, and repeating that again.

I clearly don't do submissive wife well, at all. But that doesn't mean I have to be a [email]b@llbuster[/email], either - and I can see through your eyes the emasculation I have created through my own actions.

I'll bring all this up in IC and pray on it as well.

Thank you

Sorry you got the clowns-are-eating-me dream.

Glad you got up to post.

I don't think you rewrote marital history when you said your BH was your best friend...one of the hardest things I realized was how I discounted my DH, who really was my best friend...how the fog made that out to be something it wasn't.

Finding our way back to allies, best friends...who have each other's back, not on the attack, is really important.

We did it through RC time together...slowly, but surely. My DH has a lot of passive-aggressive behaviors, as well. I found some in myself, too, when Mulan posted her boomerang thread link. Don't know if that came out right...it's in that poster's sigline.

And I, too, told BH about my A, from beginning to the end...a terrible torture in that, too, I think. Thank you for considering JL's post with your open mind...because I couldn't see, either, how much I was breaking apart my marriage through lack of respect.

I hope you're feeling better now, than earlier today. Maybe now we can both sleep, eh?

LA

Thanks LA.

At the time I told H everything because I thought it was more respectful than hiding it and lying. There wasn't a dramatic d-day, etc.

It still sucks. It still left it's mark. I gotta heal that now.

Hi Maggie,

Thanx for answering the question about those who 'supported' your adultery.

"My relationship with my mom is good, even though she supported me. She supports me recovering with H, too. Um...let's just say my mom is overly supportive of me and leave it at that."

IMHO you should maybe consider discussing with your mother that in the future you do not want her to 'support' whatever you do. Ask her to be one of the people you can be accountable to, that you can depend on to not condone it when you are doing something wrong. It might help if you explain how adulteyr is like an addiction and that you would certainly hope she would confront you if she saw addicted to something like drugs or alcohol? Maybe she doesn't realize how harmful and addictive adulteyr can be?

IMHO it is very important to address the problem with those who failed to oppose the adultery. How does your BH feel about your mother's choice to defend your adultery instead of your marriage to him? Would it help him in recovery efforts if you asked her to apologize to him and to promise not to endorse adultery if it ever rears it's ugly head again?

"My colleagues are another bunch. Most of them do not live with their spouses (very very common in my field) and loved the drama going on in my life.
I'm currently trying to find another job, so that's where I am with that."

Good idea about trying to change jobs. But unfortunately most workplaces are infected with flirting and adultery. A teenage boy we know was even bothered by a married woman with two kids who tried to talk him into having an A. They worked together at McD's. At your new job make sure your husband and your coworkers meet each other, and that your husband is always invited along to any lunches, work parties, business trips, etc.

"My neighbor is the one who really actively encouraged the affair. She also got extremely drunk (might have been high, too, who knows) one night and tried to make out with my H, claiming she felt "so sorry" for him. She is married. She has actually been to the nuthouse, and should probably go back there. I'm just civil to her...another reason to move away."

Hmmmm... obviously she had her own agenda in 'supporting' your adultery hey? Yea, I had to be very careful what female friends of mine I confided in about my WH's adulteyr problem... Sometimes I would notice that certain friends of mine would suddenly seem much more amused by my husband's conversation and jokes, much more interested in socializing with us, and much more dolled up, after they found out my husband and I were having marital problems... Gots to watch out for those 'friends'...

"So that's where I'm at with my "supporters."

It sounds as if you have already realized how those who supported your adultery just helped make things worse. That's a very good sign. More typically the BS has to try to convince the FWS that sort of support was wrong. It makes it more difficult for the BS to trust again when the FWS doesn't acknowledge that factor.

My relationship with my mother is EXTREMELY convoluted. Your suggestion just isn't going to go anywhere with her. DH tried to expose to her, and that did not go over well at all. She basically told him that she will never side against me, no matter what. I am accountable to my IC, having my mom take that role would be a poor choice for many reasons. At least she is supportive of the recovery. DH's mom has never liked me and is actively against recovery.

So we've both agreed to keep our parents out of this as much as possible. Maybe we can address those issues later. We don't live anywhere near our parents, so we just deal with them in short phone calls every 2 or 3 weeks.

Sorry, I'm babbling now. I appreciate your insight.

"I checked in on him a minute ago and he said, "I don't even know what half my answers to these even are!""

(regarding the EN's questionnaire)

I think a lot of people may not even be aware of what their most important EN's are... They just sort of feel that something is not right but can't put their finger on it...

Have you seen those little quizzes they have in women's magazines that ask you some multiple choice questions about your preferences and then pronounce what sort of shopper, or friend, or stress handler your are?

Or those occupational preference surveys you take in school which based on which activities you choose (would you rather take an object apart or sort papers?) tell you what sort of career you'd enjoy? (I was told I would like being a math or science teacher, a motorcycle mechanic, or a Catholic teaching nun! LOL)

I would prefer an EN's questionnaire more like that myself. (Besides I think it's sort of fun to do them)

So an EN's questionnaire could have you choose which of the following you'd prefer:

A) your spouse buys you flowers with a romantic note attached

B) you and your spouse play tennis together

C) your spouse works overtime to pay off bills faster

D) your spouse sends the kids over to the granparents' house for the weekend and buys some sexy lingere and candles for the weekend...

Then their is a 'scoring' system to determine what your most important EN's are based on the sort of things you chose most often.

Also, meremortal, you are so right about the workplace atmosphere thing. My husband's old job he worked with mostly guys and didn't see much of that. At his new job, women are going under desks to get perks and promotions, it's a really sleazy atmosphere.

My job is mostly gay men and older women, no temptation to be found. Clucking like hens. While the demographic won't change, at least if I go somewhere else at least they won't have my life to cluck about.

My contract is over in June, and I'm really trying hard to get us to a better part of the country (for our employment needs).

Oh, meremortal, you're totally right about the quiz idea - that's brilliant!

"My relationship with my mother is EXTREMELY convoluted. Your suggestion just isn't going to go anywhere with her. DH tried to expose to her, and that did not go over well at all. She basically told him that she will never side against me, no matter what."

Oh I see. And IMHO it's really good that you can see that about her. (BTW, my X-inlaws, 'outlaws' LOL are liek that too). I guess all you can do then is reassure your BH that you won't accept that sort of support in the future, that YOU will defend you marriage and husband even if your mother won't? (I personally don't believe my WXH will ever tell his relatives the truth let alone that they were wrong to support his adultery...)

"I am accountable to my IC, having my mom take that role would be a poor choice for many reasons."

It's great that you have somebody to be accountable to liek that. Smart too!

"At least she is supportive of the recovery. DH's mom has never liked me and is actively against recovery."

YIKES! Hopefully your BH is speakign up to his mother in your defense? I had to do this with several of my siblings in the past when I gave my WH another chance. A hard choice but the right choice if you want to do all you can to try to save your marriage.

"So we've both agreed to keep our parents out of this as much as possible."

Sounds like a good idea.

"We don't live anywhere near our parents, so we just deal with them in short phone calls every 2 or 3 weeks."

We only lived near relatives off and on for very short periods in our marriage so that does help when they are not exactly the marriage-supporting type... I am so glad that I don't live near the outlaws! I don't deny my children the right to go visit them if the WXH wants to take them there, but because of the distance/finances/time, that rarely happens (than God).

"YIKES! Hopefully your BH is speakign up to his mother in your defense? I had to do this with several of my siblings in the past when I gave my WH another chance. A hard choice but the right choice if you want to do all you can to try to save your marriage."

Sort of but not really. It made me angry at first, but I'm dropping it for now. It goes back to what JL was talking about. H's mom has never really respected his choices, and now he's found a wife who does the same thing to him. I don't want to be like his mom, so the disrespect from me needs to stop NOW.

Meremortal said: "Oh and I'm pretty sure SwingDancer told us that the man she is involved with now is still married..."

Good gracious, I am not only the enemy here, but also people will re-write MY history for me, for no reason other than to make me out to look even more hateable!

My current man, my fiance, was divorced for over 10 years when I met him and was not in a relationship of any kind when we met. We have now been together for 4 years. Where meremortal got that he is still married is beyond me.

Maggie - good luck. I'm sorry for hi-jacking your thread, but I just wanted to clear yet another item up about my name so that you wouldn't think something that wasn't true about me...not that you care....I hope your marriage works out.

I am not wanted here and I am leaving. But I still hope for you that it all works out.

SwingDancer

maggie,

I'm so glad that you have not allowed people to control who you talk to, or decide for you who is worth posting to or listening to. Good for you. Everybody is welcome here and everybody has a different perspective....diversity is very valuable. Nobody here is a pro....and so no advice is superior to anyone else's. Some of the people who may have the most important things to say....are some of the ones who have made the biggest mistakes. If we all agreed....this forum would not be nearly so rich. LA is one of the most outstanding posters we have. Swingdancer has tried to be candid and honest. ML, BK, and the Wonderings are very dedicated. Find the best that we all have to offer and don't let the back-biting affect your own ability to discern value.

I'm so glad you're here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Swing Dancer,

I thought I wasn't wanted here either, but look!

I thought you had some really good points to me. I did comment to you back in your thread that got locked that I hoped you were getting IC for your past abuse, it just sounded like it was at the root of some of your issues. I want you to succeed.

My opinion, for whatever it's worth, is that you came on really strong in your first post and were not willing to listen to what others said and back down on some of the things others found offensive. This board is mostly advice/support for hurting BSs, and those of us that aren't hurting BSs need to be respectful of their needs here. It took me a while to realize that.


Hi star*fish! I need help from all types. I'm a equal opportunity advice-taker. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't aware that anyone was trying to control Maggie starfish...Interesting perception of yours...

Maggie said:


I believe that is what was being done for Maggie...

Mrs. W

Hi MM--

I just wanted to say hi and say that I am glad to see another recovering WW on here. Sometimes I feel a little lonely on here... since the vast majority are all BS's.

I am jealous that your husband wants to work on things though. Mine doesn't so much anymore, and my M is quickly slipping through my fingers. I am having a bad day and feeling very despondent about the state of our marriage right now. Sometimes I just don't feel like there is any light at the end of the tunnel. And I know that we can't "fix" this alone, neither one of us can... but before it was just him working on fixing things, and now it is just me... we can't seem to pull it together and do it together. And no matter what I try or say... nothing changes his mind to put in even a SMIDGEN of effort to see what things COULD be if we both tried.

I do agree that Plan A'ing the BS is a good idea. I have seen what I think is progress with that, but we seem to have backsliding at LEAST once weekly-- and bad backsliding.

WS that are out of the fog need support and help too. We may have "caused" this mess ourselves, but that doesn't mean that it is any easier to get through. I have good days (yesterday) and bad days (today).

Hang in there MM... you sound like you are well on the road to recovery...

RIM

Yeah, that's why I thought she'd like to understand the agendas of folks who try to control who she posts to as well. I think it's important to offer some of the positive things about everybody....those being criticized, as well as those doing the criticizing, because I think everybody's just wants to help. I was hoping give a more balanced perspective and encourage everyone. She's new, so I know she doesn't really know everybody yet....and I wanted to encourage her to feel free to listen to her own heart. You're free to try and influence who she listens to of course, but I still hope she'll judge for herself after getting to know people here.

starfish...

I would not be so insulting to Maggie to presume that I could control who she chooses to listen to-nor would I wish to control her-that ain't my gig...Maggie has said and proven that she is intelligent enough to control her own domain...I believe her...

Mrs. W

I believe her too....that's why I let her know how much I appreciate how she's handled it. You know, I think everybody has something valuable to contribute to the forum....you, me, LA, SD...everybody.

There are posts on this thread that belittle and discredit other posters. Is that to ensure Maggie ignores them? The purpose/agenda of those posts seems fairly transparent....an effort to control who she listens to. I'm glad that Maggie hasn't let that sway her. I like that....because sometimes, it's really hard to understand all this drama/history/intrigue between posters when you don't know anybody, you need help, and you're new.

Maggie was encouraged to put people on ignore! (not because they were harrassing her...but because some people thought they were unworthy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ) People like LA? Isn't that an "agenda"? yikes....why? LA is wonderful and as dedicated as anyone I know.


Yeah, "be advised" SD is an adulterer. She sure is.

You were once an adulterer too....a really foggy one. Now you're an asset to this board because you were a WS! You learned, and you have so much to share as a FORMER wayward. Anybody can earn "former" status. Why are you better than any other adulterer? Maybe everybody else is trying as hard as you are to leave that wayward life behind them and help others do the same. They might not be as far along as you are, or they might have a different style....but isn't that okay?

Maggie, Wow.. What a difference a day makes!

Star*fish...You Rock! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Swingdancer, Please stick around...

So I'm hearing Maggie is the Magster of her own destiny.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

BWAAAAAHAAAAAAAAA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am appreciative of everyone here. Every board/forum has its dynamics, and I do appreciate people's concerns, but I'm really trying to weed drama out of my life. Internet drama is like a gateway drug to real-life drama.

ok, everybody sing along with me,

KUMBAYA MY LORD, KUM-BAY-YA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

*star bringing marshmallows and chocolate*

Maggie....I'm of the opinion that the VERY BEST Plan A there ever could be (the one all BSs dream of) is one that the WS is willing to do (instead of them). When somebody betrays you, and then you come here....and people tell you that you've got to do all the work for recovery because your WS is so foggy.....it feels so unfair!! I would have been so happy if my WH had been able to work with me.....most of them aren't. I think your H will appreciate it....but be sure that he doesn't take you for granted because you all still have to fix the affair dynamics that created the incompatibility in the first place.

Now that the affair is over....it will take both of you do that. He's hurt, and probably feels like he deserves some TLC. He's right, but make sure you help him to rebuild the strengths of the marriage so it's not vulnerable anymore.

*smile*

Agreed Starfish - that is why she was encouraged to start her own thread and be in control of her own destiny.


That is a distorted convoluted bunch of crap Starfish. She was never that I saw told to put anyone on ignore was she? Except SD? or BumAdvisor probably but certainly not LA who you seem to have your knickers in a twist about.

Starfish,

I will gladly engage with you on another thread if you'd like...I have no problem at all with that in fact...You don't intimidate me by bringing up my past-and you do so LOVE to do that to me...I have been VERY open, honest, transparent and repentant about my past here...I have returned to my one and only marriage and am very happy...SwingDancer and I ARE different...SwingDancer is engaged to be married to one of her adultery partners...She's all set to enter happily into an affairage...She's even said on this thread that she is glad that she is divorced from her BS...Gimme a break Starfish...There is NOT a parallel between myself and SwingDancer...

As far as LA...Well let's just say you don't know all that you think you do...You should ask her about that...

Mrs. W

P.S. So sorry to Maggie about this ridiculous threadjack...Starfish, start a new thread if you wish to address this further...

Hi Maggie:

I'm giggling as you describe the EN questionnaire. Usually guys love to fill it out, because we're really list oriented (check off 'talk to wife about work 2x/day', and 'pick up dirty clothes'---I'm gonna score tonight!!!), while women usually hate it (they just want to 'talk about' the issues).

I've seen the Hindenburg effect with these questionnaires. Have you done "Lovebusters" first---it's usually the most important one to do. If you haven't, see if you can get your husband to do it, to give you an area or two where you need to work (this is for HIS benefit). Then---score a session with Steve or Jenn and talk with them. They'll want to talk to your husband, to see how you're doing with this.

And before you know it---you'll be in coaching together.

This plan usually works well---I'd give it a try.

Great advice from K Maggie...How do you feel about giving Steve or Jennifer a call for guidance? Guraranteed money well spent!

Mrs. W

Good advice K and Mrs. W. I think DH should probably see some more changes from me before he feels willing to try MC again.

I'll do the LB questionnaire with him tonight. I'm the list person in our house, H hates that stuff.

Before the hindenburg of SF talk ruined the conversation, I did find out that H has a much much greater need for affection than I thought. I think I am going to focus on that need right now and just forget about SF for the time being. He knows I had the affair for SF, and his SF questionnaire was full of little qualifying notes in the margins like, "I know this is what you want." I dont want him to enthusiastically SF just because I want to. I want him to want it for himself. So I'm going to focus on affection.

Today I'm going to clean his office for him (I'm the organizer/designer, he's the clutter bug) and make him some christmas gifts. These are the kinds of things he sees as meeting his affection needs. That I do little things for him that don't cost money.

Also, I'm going on wellbutrin today. I just recently weaned off of lexapro. The lexapro gave me alcohol cravings and I gained almost 40 pounds in less than a year on it. I also think it attributed to my "i don't care mentality" which helped fuel the A.

The wellbutrin is supposed to help me lose weight, feel less groggy during the day, and quit smoking. I hope it works!

Maggie...

Yep Wellbutrin is a good one-my best friend reps that drug! Good Luck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you haven't read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman you might get a lot out of it~~~> Click Here

Mrs. W

guys, I want to ask you a favor.

I've been doing something really dumb even since NC, and I know it will keep the fog rolling in unless I stop.

One night during the affair when OM was really high on pills and I was worried about what he was up to, I got him to give me the passwords for his VM and email.

I check them, multiple times a day. I found a "backdoor" number to his VM network so he has no idea I am checking it. This is how I found out he was sleeping with men. He is also sleeping with a much, much older woman (she sounds like she is in her 60s!) to use her car and take her prescription pain meds.

My H knows I've been doing this, and I think he's just been quietly hoping I would stop torturing myself.

It's very disrespectful to my H. It's continuing my angry blaming fog on OM.

So, I submit here that I will not do it again. If I slip, I have to confess it here, which will be very embarrassing for me after making the statement that I won't do it.

Will you hold me accountable, please?

MM, here's am idea... use your thread to let go of your anger. And if you slip, I'll certainly be happy to give you the 2x4 routine. (I’ll just imagine that you’re my WW, that way we all get something out of it).
All kidding aside, I really respect and appreciate your postings. As a BS that is still in the blizzard, it helps me to know that the fog can be overcome.

Now for the serious stuff... is it possible that your H is threatened by your checking on the OM, be it in anger or not.

Let’s make a deal... I don't give up hope and you don't give up either, and we keep each other in check. (I'm sire others will be glad to join in).

Keep giving it your all!!

MM,

You hit on a great use for MB as a public forum...accountability. You choosing to take advantage of it insures that many will hold you accountable.

Including me. We're in your corner...and that's an awesome choice to make, because it IS contact...knowing about OM in any way is contact. Same for hearing about him from others, like your neighbors.

So, make sure you're well exposed with those who may pass on information to you about him...goes further to protect your boundary, 'k?

LA

Your honesty here is a great thing Maggie...So kudos to you for that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do you have those numbers memorized, written down or programmed into your phone? Obviously if it's either of the latter two you know what to do...If is memorization, then you must use a combination of willpower and accountability...Go to your husband and ask him to help you be accountable and obviously we here will do what we can to help you...Do NOT erase any history on your phone and ask that your husband check it nightly...Wear a rubber band on your wrist and anytime you are tempted to call OM's VM, pull it back and snap yourself HARD-then post here...You are right that calling is disrespectful to your husband and that this keeps the anger right there with ya...YUCK!! You don't need that...You don't want that...What you want is for OM to become irrelevant and for you to become indifferent where he is concerned...That's the goal...Let's stick with the plan, k?

Mrs. W

unfortunately, they're memorized.

I haven't checked either email or VM in over 24 hours. That's a first! I can do this! Doing this is GOOD for me!

Thank you so much you guys!

I am super proud that you told this here Maggie...Transparency is a beautiful thing!!! Just the simple act of telling this here will help you LOADS! ((((Maggie))))

Also have you mentioned this to your husband? Meaning have you told him that you realize how disrespectful this has been to him and that you are doing everything in your power to change that? That you are now choosing to respect him? I think talking to him about this would make a lovebank deposit...

Mrs. W

Also this may have no meaning whatsoever, but it MIGHT...Have you talked to your IC about the fact that your first husband had homosexual tendencies and so did OM...I wonder what an IC might think about that...Might be worth exploring...dunno...

Mrs. W

Mrs. Wondering

If you only knew all the men I've dated who turned out gay! My prom date was gay!

I'll ask my IC about this, but I imagine it probably has something to do with the field I'm in. Let's put it this way: it's more gay than hairstyling. So the men I have met are probably more likely to have experimented, etc. Although XH and OM were not in that field. Hmmmm. Maybe I just have weird luck?

Or maybe it's just because I look just like Jake Gyllenhall. :P

I kid!!! I'm super feminine-looking!

Also, I just wanted to make sure this is clear: my H is 100% straight manly man.

Maggie you just crack me right up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. PLEASE come decorate our house! (guessing) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maggie, how you feeling today? I know that we both had a really rough Monday. You sure do sound in better spirits.

tmts,

I am feeling so much better. Mostly because I've been posting here. I like having a plan, I like lists, I like knowing what my goal is and having steps to get there. I'm sure there will be some more bumps, but today is a good one.

How are you doing? I'm going to go check in on you at your thread...

Mrs. W -

*ding*

But I don't do houses...I have a "Tim Gunn" type of job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maggie,

Would you add to your list that you want and need to respect your H??? I read what you said about him going to college and dropping out. I suspect you feel he has failed, and I am sure he does. But, his talents may not lie in that direction, or he may have issues with learning via dyslexia or such. I don't know.

But, I wonder if you understand his true strengths. I once was in a deep conversation with my minister about life and things, when the subject of work came up. He asked me about my hours and I told him. He looked at me and said "you know you have been blessed. You have been blessed with a work ethic and the ability to work long hours. Not everyone is so blessed." That one took me back. Most of the people I know work long hours and still do when my age (in my 60's). But, it also put a new spin on what a gift can really be and how we need to step back and look at things differently.

What are your H's gifts? Have you recognized them? I know you complain about the long hours he works. Have you ever considered them a gift? If you are to finally show your H some respect, you need to fully understand his gifts. He needs to hear that you are aware of his gifts and that you value them.

The man needs affection as you have stated, but he needs more than that. He needs a partner who respects him, and will protect him. You will find he has lots to say if he EVER feels safe.

Further I would bet given his education vs. yours that he KNOWS that in any discussion you will win. I would guess he feels that if you go to a counselor, it will end up being "his fault" and that you will be skilled enough to make it seem that way and then it will be two against one, when he knows he cannot handle one against one.

You may not feel this way, but he has been put on the defensive, and I would bet good money he views this as a win or lose situation with you as the adversary at a very basic level. You need to become his partner, and then you might well become his lover.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Ok, JL. Ouch. I hear you loud and clear.

Just because we have a difference in education, my H is no dummy. He engages in very interesting intellectual conversation and is well read.

I don't mind that he hasn't finished college, I did mind when I was providing it to him after he said it was what he wanted and then he just chose to not show up for classes (without going into details, this was professionally embarrassing). I've pretty much let go of that now. I'm trying to get a different position in a place where he can pursue his dreams. I have always been very supportive of his dreams, but sometimes I get frustrated because he is a wishful thinker. He works too many hours at jobs he is underqualified for, and then won't take any steps towards achieving these big goals and dreams he has. But I keep supporting him anyway, and happily.

I don't think we are on such unequal footing as I think you have the impression I do. I do not go through my marriage trying to "win," I don't have a competitive nature in that way.

Maybe I'm being foggy. But I did hear you the first time you posted - I have disrespected and emasculated my husband. I don't want it to be that way. I know how to fix it with words, but the words are never enough, I have no idea how to fix it with behaviors. Any ideas? Action steps?

Maggie,

My point was/is: it isn't what you think or what is "reality", it is what he thinks and how he views himself. That is the hard part of recovery, learning that the spouses views as their reality.

This is why I am encouraging you to examine this carefully and talk with him as much as you can with the idea of learning his reality. I don't know what his reality is, but I do know it is different from yours.

It is all about filters and that determines how one receives and processes information. You may have been the most encouraging W in the world, but it doesn't matter if he does not receive and process what you have done as you have.

This is one of the most profound messages of this site. Harley felt that often very well meaning spouses don't meet their spouses needs because a) they don't know what they are, b) assume they are the same as theirs c) if they do recognize them try to meet them as they themselves would like to have them met.

It is why he has felt that many marriages could be salvaged because this inability to see or meet the others needs leads to marriage problems that are fixable.

Please read a bit about his thinking on meeting EN's and where he sees downfall. I think it will help you with your chosen path.

God Bless,

JL

PS: You will also learn that how he views you is not your reality either. That is what I am really cautioning you about. He may think you expect things from him that he cannot deliver...like going to school which he KNOWS you value and he may not be able to handle for a number of reasons. You will find as you learn more about him, you will learn more about how he sees you, and finally he will learn more about you. This is very nonlinear stuff.

Hi Maggie,

Not sure if this is out of line but from the last few posts I read, it sounds like the book: His Needs/Her Needs could be helpful.

That book helped me see that how I communicate with my H and how he communicated with me was very different for many reasons and it was my personal challenge to understand the communicate styles of men vs women and then of our individual personalities.

I thought I was a decent communicator. For the most part I was but during our M, my H decided to view my attempts at communication as an attack on his manhood or character. I didn't realize this, in fact I thought I was actually helping him by trying hard to think ahead. Well while thinking ahead was helpful, not letting him know my technique was detrimental to our M & R.

I also learned doing less sometimes was better than doing too much. Of course he would never tell me to stop doing the majority of the R work but in reality, he needed me to not do as much.

Hope this makes some sense. The book explains it much better and JL is giving you great insight.

take care,
L.

If you're asking how you can meet a need for "admiration" through more than words....then let me suggest a few:

*depending on your husband's love language....acts of service are very good at showing your admiration.

*use your imagination in the bedroom to show admiration. I have yet to meet a man who didn't appreciate feeling irresistible and studly.

*brag about him to your friends...within earshot. Even though it's still "words", the fact that you telling someone else besides him is sometimes more powerful. It shows you're proud of him.

*notice the things he does for you or around you. Write him little thank-you notes.

*I once had a letter delivered by courier to a remote hunting camp with a list of everything I loved about him....quirks, body parts, sexual techniques....enough to make him blush.

There's a few anyway....but you sound like a very bright girl, so use your imagination.

And about "accountability".....replace bad habits with good ones. When you think about checking his VM, get up and take a walk or do some other kind of physical activity that will increase endorphins and get your heart pumping in a way that is healthy for you. Drink lots of water to flush out those affair chemicals. Do small acts of service for the people around you.....the feeling you get will encourage more compassionate thinking, raise your consciousness and temper selfishness.

You're doing really well.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

maggie, I just want to tell you that you are an inspiration to me. Maybe I have just latched on to you because you are a FWW who posts, has a plan, and a goal. Everything that I wish, hope and pray that Mrs Rock will someday have.
Hopefully withher new found help, she and I can get to that point.
I am really enjoying your posts and your insights.
Thanks.
Rock

Rock, I really see so much of who I was just a very short time ago in what you've described of Mrs. Rock. The depression, the drinking, the fog, etc.

If I can pull out of it, I know she can, too.

I hope you're settling in great to your new job. The way you feel about your work reminds me of my husband, and I know how hard it is to give something your all when you're just not feelin' it. I'm learning to admire that quality, by empathizing with my husband more.

I know this is a tough time of year for you both, but I wish you a truly blessed holiday.

(((rock and mrs. rock)))

Thanks maggie. I've got to go to my pitiful job right now. I will talk to ya later. Have a great day!

testing out my shiny new signature!

Hi Maggie,
How are things? Any foggy moments we need to worry about?
Have you managed to stay away form the VM? Do we need to get the lumber?

Hi TMTS!

You can hit with 2x4 cushions if you like, but no wood is needed! Its been 4 days.

I feel SO MUCH better now that I've let go of that "need" to keep tabs on OM. What a waste of my precious brain cells getting wrapped up in that drama was!

DH & I are setting out to go on a 16-hour road trip, and I've got the LB questionnaires for us to discuss in the car. I also made him some mix cds of both deep and goofy love songs. I used to make him stuff like that all the time, and he said last week..."why don't you make me cds anymore?"

Duh, why don't I? Plus I get to use my skilz designing the cases (I was a graphic designer before I went to school to do what I'm doing now.)

And I have an art project I'm finishing up for a xmas present for him, it's a bunch of shells he collected on the beach in florida on our anniversay a few years ago that have been sitting in a bag in the garage. I'm making them into this abstract sculptural thing that will hang in a shadow box on the wall.

He's half-sleeping, half-watching Anthony Bourdain right now. I just keep taking little breaks and checking in here.

What a difference a few days make. You sound like you're doing real well. Have fun on the trip, hope you get through his fog.

A few days, an amazing supportive forum, and some new anti-depressants that seem to be hitting just the right spot in my brain. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Through his fog? DHs? I don't think he is foggy...that's my job...do you think he is foggy, and if so can you explain? Or was that a typo for "this fog"?

maggie,

Your Christmas presents sound really cool. We're doing all homemade gifts this year. I was a graphic artist and illustrator in my former life LOL....I still do fine arts, but mostly for my own enjoyment. I worked alot until we started moving so much. I'm up late working on a pastel of apples for my daughter's new kitchen. She just got married, and she's got this thing for apples. The kids and I made a funny video for my husband to an old Tom Jones song....it's pretty funny. I'm really shocked that my husband actually made something....and wrapped it too...I just can't imagine what it is...but it's big. Anyway, I hope you have a Merry Christmas....I'm sure he'll love those gifts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oops sorry Maggie, wrong thread. the foggy hubby is regret is me's H. The effexor and adavant must be starting to take effect. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

.

Hey MM! I thought I'd drop ya a line here, since I've been a looky-loo on your thread but never posted! I was talking to my hubby the other night about the checking OM's email, etc. Guess it would help if I post!

I've just taken a lot in over the past couple weeks and am feeling a little cross-eyed with it right now! Has it made a difference with DH since quitting the checking up on OM stuff? I remembered earlier on you had said he was so withdrawn, and I thought (after you told us that info) NO WONDER! (sorry-not a 2x4, I was just as bad with different stuff like my music). It almost like the fog just blocks things out that should be obvious, ya know. Then when it begins to cear, it's like Homer Simpson's-- Doh!!!

BTW-I like the forcast... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

.

Oooo ya got me on the "Shoes" thing, Magster...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Not a clue

.

Oh well- we wouldn't want to offend my delicate sensibilities HAR HAR! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I'll check it out tomorrow. My silly self needs to go to bed.

" Quote:
Liaz, please ignore BA, he is a troll.



Maggie,

Can you please post something else? Reply and show what is wrong with a post, don't just make an accusation especially to someone who is new to MB. They have no real clue about what you mean by a troll.

Please be a bit more understanding in your posts.

L. "

Um, why am I being called out INSTEAD OF THE TROLL? BA is jumping on peoples threads, prying into their lives, and won't explain himself at all. I felt safe here when I started posting. BA MAKES ME FEEL MY SAFETY HERE IS VIOLATED - I feel that he is here specifically to harm newbies and create drama - and yes, I fell for it.

I thought that the word "troll" entered the public lexicon about a decade ago, I think its a safe assumption that most people on message boards know what a troll is. I was trying to prevent harm, not cause it.

I think I may have made one other short post like this, after kindly pointing out BAs bad advice and asking him to stop asking questions when he wasn't willing to answer any. I got really upset and went with the short/to the point route because I'd seen many other vet posters here, who I admire, say the exact same thing in the exact same way. Please, before you accuse me of being unhelpful or lacking in understanding,look at my posting history first. I don't think I lack either quality.

So anyway, Orchid, while I understand your point, please don't tell me how to post or who to post to - it feels very condescending and controlling. I also think it's odd that you picked a newbie to chastize when plenty of older vets have used the exact same terms and posting style. I read here a long time before I started posting, I'm familiar with the "tone" of this board.

Merry Christmas!

Maggie, you said to BA:


Then you said to Orchid:


If STFU is representative of the "tone of this board" that is a one sad commentary. But maybe you're reading the posts of different "vets" than I am. Orchid, K, 2Long, JustLearning and star*fish seem to get their points across pretty well without resorting to profane acronyms. I find that I can disagree with what a poster says but still have tons of respect for the poster if he/she can express him/herself in a civil manner.

I'm not going to tell you how to post; that's the job of the moderator/admin. Post however you want. But I will tell you that what you posted to BA is much more a reflection of you than it is of BA. It says to me that you're trying to act tough. That's usually the posture of someone who doesn't feel very tough....quite understandable for a FWW new in recovery.

Now that I understand very well.

Take care.

PK

Yep PK, I made ONE profane post out of anger. I don't think that's as damaging as some of the bad advice BA has posted, but I can see where you would disagree.

*shrug*

Hi Maggie,

I don't want to do a pile up on you, but in the time I've been here---I haven't seen BA's posts as being 'bad' with regard to advice. It's very apparent that s/he had some very poor behavior by switching user ID's---but I haven't seen that history. The troll accusation stuff is very disruptive (in my opinion), and adds to a combative nature that shouldn't be here.

When you encounter someone you don't like---consider this:

1. Is it worth it to call them out? You're threadjacking, and especially with a newcomer's thread asking for advice---you can drive that person off. When is it worth it? When the advice is clearly anti-MB, and the person is taking it. Even then, I wouldn't smack people around with a troll label (easy for me to say---I just did it for effect a couple minutes ago). There's a long time poster (bryanp) who has never subscribed to the MB principles---and often does run-by postings suggesting divorce. But it's very rare that anyone pays any attention.

My suggestion would be to just not pay attention to this. If you need to correct---do so in a manner that illustrates MB principles and guidelines. It's much better than STFU---and you're a newcomer---it'll help you learn these methodologies and apply them yourself!

Regards...

Ok, post edited. It was done out of anger and is not my usual "style."

Please though, I think if you all would stop the pileup for a minute and get past the language I used, I think you will see I have a point as well.

Ok, reengage pile-up.

One thing is for sure, I would NEVER tell someone else how to post. Suggest, maybe, but tell them? Never.

Mags... focus. Remember why you're here... I'm one to talk mr. react ay anything the WW says. LOL

Maggie...

Email me...My email is in my signature line...

Mrs. W

Hi Maggie:

I'm sorry if you thought that this was a 'directive'. It's why I used the words 'consider' and 'suggestion'.

And anger is OK---everyone has it and deals with it. I'm sorry if I've added to your frustrations here---it wasn't my intent.

I am too emotionally raw to be on this board right now. My DH has asked me to please not come here anymore.

I really don't feel safe here - which is my issue, no one elses. Bur I can control that by leaving.

Thank you to everyone, you have all had such wonderful POVs and taken time to help me, it hasn't gone unappreciated.

I wish you all blessings, wonderful marriages, and a Merry Christmas!

I hope you will return Maggie...Please do email me...FWIW, I think you are EXACTLY right about BA...Some people here are more concerned with the treatment of TROLLS than they are about posters of value here...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Maggie, All the best to you and your DH. Keep your head up high because at the end of the day you reconized and decided to fight the fog. Please come back and update us when you are feeling better.
Take care and thank for your input!!!

You know this is just UNREAL to me...Here we have Maggie, a brand new FWW, who was using this board for accountability and was making GREAT progress as well as adding valuable input to the board in general and to the situations of others...

On the other end of the spectrum we have BA...Who has done nothing but stalk, attempt to impersonate a valuable board member, changed their name about a gazillion times because of being BANNED, someone who HAS MOST CERTAINLY given LOADS of bad advice, and only asks baiting type questions or offers statements of NO VALUE...

But it's MORE important to worry about how BA is treated??? You've got to be kidding me...Political correctness has gotten WAY out of hand...

I realize that Maggie is responsible for her own choice of leaving the board, but seriously, give me a break...She should NOT have been scolded for stating the obvious about BA...Silencing voices of TRUTH in favor of protecting the trolls here is just ridiculous...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W - If you could talk to her off line and ask her to reconsider. You are right she was doing great!!! And her honesty helped this newbie BS to understand some aspects of the fog. She is also very encouraging and was my "keeping each other in check" buddy.
I certainly will be one that will miss her presence here!!!

Mrs. W...I couldn't agree more. I am so sick and tired of the PC's fools on this board. Between idiots attempting to tell others how and what to post...to taking up arms to defend trolls...it is just sickening. People that are mentioned as being wise posters here have been among the worst offenders. I personally am hoping that a few more of them decide to leave...and as usual they will do it with much fanfare.

MM was already an asset to this board and shame on anyone here that had word one to say to her regarding her response to Bum Advisor or her supporters.

The PC crowd here has become downright pathetic.

Maggie, you were right, BA should stfu...and so should her/his supporters. Anyone here doesn't like me saying so, TS...put me on ignore.

Maggie,

If you're still out there, please reconsider! You are doing so well with the help of the vets, and your input to me was invaluable.

All the best.

Maggie,

I'm bummed out to see you've left. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Good luck to you and your husband and I hope you'll reconsider because I think that you could be an asset here. Have a good Christmas.

Maggie

I like reading your take on things - it helps BH and FBH alike. We need more FWW perspective - they are necessary in this community as most guys are a bit clueless when it comes to the other gender - heck I am 48 and married 27.5 yrs and still a dummy.

When you get the chance - pop in here when you feel you can -

Have a great holiday season with your family.

This is completely untrue, and I wish I could believe that you know it. But I can't.

The Great Troll War that we've all experienced recently was a battle - not over coddling or chasing trolls - about long-time posters falsely accusing others of dealing with trolls in a manner they themselves wouldn't, under the guise of "posting style".

I could care less about an indiidual's posting style. I have no desire 2 "control" how people post (though I was accused of that). What I'd love 2 see, but maybe can't expect, is a bit more class.

More compassion, which can never, ever be misplaced. (It CAN be misapplied, however).

-ol' 2long

I absolutely agree with this concept. I don't remember if I've posted 2 maggie before, but I would hope she'll reconsider (but understand that it is more a matter between her H and herself, and if it hurts their recovery 2 post here, then I accept their judgment and respect their decision)


Has BA ac2ally been banned? If it has, then it must have access 2 a LOT of computers, because the moderators could easily identify multiple versions of the same member by their IP addresses. If it hasn't been banned, I sure wonder why not?


As above, I don't think this is about PCness.

-ol' 2long

I, too, want to defend maggie. I don't think that anything she said was wrong. I have had BA respond to my threads a few times and thought that it was rather harsh. I know nothing about BA, but I recieved a few personal messages from some board members that I trust here and they told me a little about BA. I don't think that maggie was out of line whatsoever and this never should have gotten to this point.
maggie was a great inspiration to me and probably many more here. She gave me great insights from thew perspective of a FWW. I do hope that she will reconsider, I was hoping ot get to know her a little better and valued her POVs.
Isn't this place supposed to be a safe place for BS and FWS alike?
maggie, please reconsider.
Rock

Tempting, but I'll try not 2 be dramatic. THAT is what's wrong here.

-ol' 2long

Maggie, it was never a contest between you vs. BA. As to comparing bad advice to profanity and determining which is worse, I neither agree nor disagree....it's not even on my radar, and it wasn't the focus of my post.

I'm not going to get into the whole troll thing. It's nothing but a smokescreen. Moderators and administrators could ban BA if they chose to. If they haven't, and you feel that they should, why not take it up with them? Just as we can't control how others post, neither can we control WHETHER others post.

Finally, I'm not doing a pile-up. I spoke to you one on one. It would be awfully silly to leave because one person chose to speak to you. If your H is not on board with you being on the forum that is another story, and you are certainly wise for listening to his concerns. At this point in your recovery, he deserves the bulk of your efforts.

Take care.

PK

Mag,

Please reconsider. Having FWW is vital for BH's to understand the flip side of the coin.


As for the trolls...
I have to agree that the protection they receive is unwarranted. I would think it best if we all just ignore them completely. There is no point to calling them out because that is what they are trying to bait you into doing. All they are looking for is attention. They like to stir up trouble and try to make you angry. Maybe the best way to handle it would to create a post with evidence citing all of a trolls(BA) offenses and whenever he/she posts one person could respond with a canned response like below:


If this is the only interaction they receive, eventually they will get bored and move on to another forum to cause trouble. You see once you take the fun out of it for them they move on. I have seen this tactic work very well on other boards.

Also, as many of you know, I am a webmaster by trade. Banning isn't a perfect solution. There is a chance of accidentally banning legitimate posters by using IP banning. There is a way to get around this though. Basically, they could put an ip monitor on a specific account and record all the IP's used to login by that user. If they all match for a week, it would be resonable to assume that they only have a static IP address used to access the forum and then you could ban that IP. As soon as I get my business back together I plan to offer the Harley's my services to help spuce up the forums(bloody SQL errors) for now though our best bet to eliminate the troll activity is just to ignore them. It drives them crazy!

Just my thoughts........

Want2Stay

This is very disturbing to read.

Maggie,

I really wish you'd reconsider. In your short time here you've been such a valuable contributor and member.

Please re-think your departure.
Jo

Maggie,

I read your response and felt it might be better if these concerns and conclusions you have posted were answered individually, so my response is written below. Hope it helps.



Orchid: Maggie, I brought this to your attention I was not trying to change your posting style. All info and support shared here are suggestions. We are not professionals of this board, we are sharing our POVs based on our experiences and what we have learned.


I went looking to see what type of advice BA gave that was harmful on that thread.... didn't see any red flags. That was why I posted to you. Try this suggestion: You can block a poster who you think is offensive. That is your choice.

[/quote]Maggie: I thought that the word "troll" entered the public lexicon about a decade ago, I think its a safe assumption that most people on message boards know what a troll is. I was trying to prevent harm, not cause it. [/quote]

Orchid: People may be familiar with the word but application is often complicated. For example, I have been called a lot things that in reality were not true. The user knew the meaning but misapplied it badly.

[/quote]Maggie:I think I may have made one other short post like this, after kindly pointing out BAs bad advice and asking him to stop asking questions when he wasn't willing to answer any. I got really upset and went with the short/to the point route because I'd seen many other vet posters here, who I admire, say the exact same thing in the exact same way. Please, before you accuse me of being unhelpful or lacking in understanding,look at my posting history first. I don't think I lack either quality.[/quote]

Orchid: I asked you to stop. The choice to do so still remains in your control. I did not say you were not helpful, just commented on the troll post. You do realize that at times we all post something that could have been rephrased in a more helpful manner. I have been guilty of that well. When it is brought to my attention, I listen and work on what is valid. You did mention you posted out of anger. Now you realize it and stopped. See, that's progress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]Maggie:So anyway, Orchid, while I understand your point, please don't tell me how to post or who to post to - it feels very condescending and controlling. I also think it's odd that you picked a newbie to chastize when plenty of older vets have used the exact same terms and posting style. I read here a long time before I started posting, I'm familiar with the "tone" of this board.[/quote]

Orchid: I am glad you understand. I am sorry if you thought my post was condescending and controlling. As for picking a 'newbie' and chastising, well I was wasn't. I posted to you to make a suggestion. It takes time to realize how to heal and help. How to handle someone whose style or post we don't like can be a bit more complex and of course responding in anger often has it's drawbacks. Basically my post to your was to help you stay out of harms way.


FYI: If other posters who have been here longer post with the same words and style you posted and you stated it was done in anger, then that would be a point of concern. Not your issue but a point of concern. I have seen that happen before and in the past when this happened, most posters would understand when it was brought to their attention and going forward, we learned to refocus back to helping and not post in anger. Just sharing info. here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]Maggie:I am too emotionally raw to be on this board right now. My DH has asked me to please not come here anymore.[/quote]

Orchid: Hm..... emotionally raw is what brought many of us here. Your DH asked you to not come here. Does that mean he is working on helping you heal?

When my H was a full fledge WS and in his very selfish mode, he demanded I stop posting. POJA wasn't in place yet because he stayed in the WS mode for a long time. I considered his request and then compared it to mine progress MB helped me make. My personal MB progress outweighed me having to listen to the very BAD advice of the then WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So I informed my then WS that until he could help me with the kind of help and support I received here at MB and MC, I would have to continue with my MC and MB support. :griN;

Of course as a WS he was in no shape to help me heal.... that goes against everything a WS stands for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> So he reluctantly stop demanding I stop posting.

Mind you this happened while we were having not an 'assumed' troll invasion but a very blatant one where the same posters were tracked back to the OW website and confirmed by their own admin.

Those times did scare off some MB posters but I choose to concentrate on the positive benefits from MB and learned how to control my moments of anger.

See while I was upset that anyone would post harmful stuff to those in need, I knew I could choose to steer clear of them and focus on my quest to finish my plan A, work on my boundaries along with prep for plan B. At that time, I personally had a lot to do and didn't waste a lot of time following trolls to see what they posted (until I could emotionally handle it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

[/quote]Maggie:I really don't feel safe here - which is my issue, no one elses. Bur I can control that by leaving.[/quote]

Orchid: Yes you can keep your environment safe. Sorry you don't feel safe here. Still I hope you continue working on your recovery. Steve & Jennifer @ MB can help. A local MC may be able to assist you in your recovery as well.

Sincerely,
L.

We just started chattin, but I miss ya already.

I hope you and H get in a good enough place where he feels comforatble with you being here.

Until then, we'll miss you!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

((((Magster)))))

Yes, she stopped....stopped posting.

I guess some might call THAT progress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh

Marsh -- so if I left MB, would that be progress to you?

LA

No you didn't. You gave very specific instructions as to how MM should post.

1) post something else
2) Reply and show what is wrong with a post
3) don't just make an accusation
4) be a bit more understanding in your posts

Orchid, First you said this...



And then this...



So which was it? Were you concerned about how someone new might read her post, or were you concerned for her safety?

What harms way did you see her in? Who were you trying to protect her from?

~ Marsh

********edit*************

To any who choose to read this post,


BA, you were edited by Justuss. Consider that a good thing because no matter what you post, you will be considered by some t/b bad. That's sad if you are not but seems that's how some want to handle things so that's their choice. With that said, please reconsider your posting methods. You may have something good to say but since it c/b taken wrong anyway, consider just reading or if you feel the need to post, post referencing another post. Just a suggestion.

To all readers of this post: The mods are doing what they s/b doing within the parameters of their responsibilities. They are to remain neutral until a true TOS is broken.

Now it also seems my words are being twisted by some who quite frankly surprise me. Thought you all knew me better than that but guess not. I know why and what I posted. If it was taken wrong and I explain, but it still wants to be taken wrong, then so be it. Can't help people see the truth if they don't want to.

For the sake of the currently confused: I asked Maggie to stop with the troll statements because she was the last one I saw post that way. I also mentioned that her progress was related to the fact that she recognized her anger and choose to stop posting in anger. I never encouraged her to stop posting. Nothing more on that subject is needed to be explained.

Maggie has chosen to stop posting. We need to respect it. She is welcome to come back for support or to give support as needed. One day, I hope she can understand this important point.

We are all within our rights to block posters and stop posting. Is it wise for us to do so? That depends but it is our choice.

I can tell you that all this stupid troll accusations has certainly got me wondering about how much longer I will be posting here. Yea... I know that's my choice to make.

Hope this isn't a spitting in the wind post. Will keep a clean cloth handy just in case. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, I hope you were able to read my post before it was edited by JustUss. I don't know why it was deleted, it was conveyed in a civilized and reasonable manner. I won't post it again, but there were two points in my edited post:

1) Thanking Orchid for defending what's right and not what's popular.

2) Some of you are unreasonably blaming Orchid for something that's not Orchid's fault. (Won't get into detail about this point, obviously JustUss does not allow it for some reason).

I am a reasonable person. Use reason and decency, I will respond the same and treat you with respect. If you don't, I'll try to just ignore.


BA

BestAngel:

Could you please tell us why you are "BestAngel1" now?

[color:"blue"] BestAngel1
Junior Member

Reged: 12/22/07
Posts: 1 [/color]

So, BA, should wear her edit as a "badge of honor"?

Wow...just wow.

~ Marsh

I am still trying to get a full answer on that waiting for JustUss's email reply to my questions.

Were you unable to login as "BestAngel"? Were you banned?

Jo

you beat me to that Marsh. Orchid has been one of the main stirrers of the pot of late. Very sad to see this. Very sad indeed.

Nothing surprises me on these boards any more. I have noticed a change in her from the moment her H posted here. Or at least that is my perception.

What gives Orchid?

Agreed, MEDC, something seems to have changed.

~ Marsh

Orchid, I don't know about you, I will stay out of this particular thread.

Agree...Orchid's husband posts in what imo was a very foggy manner-excused by Orchid as him not being a regular poster on the board and then suddenly BLAM...An all new Orchid appears on the scene...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Orchid, can't you see that your continued defense of BA, now BA1, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> does absolutely NOTHING but EMBOLDEN him/her/it...Why in the world would you wish to prop up a troll on a board that I once believed that you valued greatly...I simply do not get it...

Mrs. W

I'd love to see THAT email:

Perhaps it says:

Justuss, please explain why you edited me and banned me from posting on MB...AGAIN. You know you can't really ban me because I refuse to accept your authority here and I will find a way around your IP ban each and every time. Therefore, though it's annoying to have to reregister everytime...why not just accept that I can't actually be banned and will continue trolling away despite your attempts to stop me...that is, unless you can explain to MY satisfaction why I should stop because I am the ultimate arbitrator of my worth here, not you.

BestAdvisor, BestAdvisor1, Sunshine, BestAngel, BestAngel1, et. al."


Justuss...please just keep banning her and banning her. If she/he really isn't a troll why would she/he keep choosing easily identifiable names. She/he wants to disrupt these boards and needle you (and all of us) in the process.

On another note, I know it feeds the trolls to point them out but people (and lurkers) need to be warned from time to time (like maggie, my wife and I and others have). Especially as the troll begins accumulating posts and appears more seasoned. IMO, the worst "feeding of the trolls" occurs when they are defended as that results in hard feelings between the opposing veterans with the troll as the successful instigator. (BA's edited post(s) certainly stated she/he perceived her/himself as being "defended" even if that wasn't anyone's true intent).

IMO, trolls unfortunately, HAVE to be pointed out as trolls but nobody should or HAS to defend them (though they can post whatever they like).

Mr. Wondering

Edit: I have deleted my response here and reposted it on a new thread. RE: This subject is no longer related to Maggie's post.

Here's the link: So you really think Orchid supports trolls?!?!?!

If you choose to post, please do so on new post. I feel it isn't fair to continue this discussion on Maggie's thread. I am not telling others what to do, I am providing another place to post their POVs as needed.

Thanks,
L.

Orchid:

I am not saying that it isn't you posting...What I AM saying is that since your husband posted, the way that you post has CHANGED...MEDC didn't have to dig deep at all...It is OBVIOUS...I suspect that others see it too...

As far as where everyone is getting that you are defending BA is concerned...Well, BA sure thinks you are defending her/him/it...It IS OBVIOUS that you are defending the troll, make no mistake about it...

You contradict yourself within your posts...




The first quote above by you DEFENDS BA, and then in the very next breath you say you aren't defending him/her/it...Good grief how in the world can you not see this??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

*THUD*

Mrs. W

Do you think Justuss editted BA, w/o cause?

Banned her/him w/o cause?

Is following her/him around w/o cause?



Well, you did tell a poster, who was editted/banned, to consider it a good thing.

What did you mean by that?

~ Marsh

JESUS!

Take me now, Lord!

-ol' 2long

This subject is no longer related to Maggie's post. I have created a post separate from Maggie's.

Here's the link: So you really think Orchid supports trolls?!?!?!

If you choose to post, please do so on new post. I feel it isn't fair to continue this discussion on Maggie's thread. I am not telling others what to do, I am providing another place to post their POVs as needed.

Thanks,

Hi Maggie,

I'm still relatively new here, just approaching my first anniversary, but I can recall sentiments that may be similar to what you MIGHT be feeling.

A week after I registered, I felt like I needed to leave the boards when a firestorm erupted that was bewildering to me. My WH was not aware of it, but I truly wanted to do research so I tried to send a generic request to the MB Staff. (Details on my sign line, not important here.)

Dr. Harley himself answered <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> and he and Mrs. Harley suggested I call the radio show. (I wondered if they were just short on scheduled guests, but I don't want to make that disrespectful judgement, especially in light of the results.)

I did email one poster who was very supportive during my time off the boards....two weeks. That time change my life and our marriage.....saved both actually.

If you need to vent when you're taking a break, my addy is in my profile. I'll be praying for you.

You have brought a much-needed perspective to these forums and we all will be stronger when/if you choose to return.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Maaaaggggggggiiiiieeee}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

(Remember my melody you reference on that other thread ~~~> "Ace In a Bucket"} LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

P.S. You might consider calling the radio show but I think Mrs. W. said there are limited times before the end of the year. You can dig in the MB radio archives for my call "Lacey" from Wed. Jan. 31, 2007. It's free and the two hour segment (usually about 10-20 min. each guest) replays all day.

Yoooo Whoooo Magster!!!!

You said on the "Where is Mel?" thread that when you see my name you think of that song by the pretenders "Ace in Bucket".

So here I am to remind you.....except I can't remember the words before the 'pocket' part <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and no time to look it up.

Hope you check in sometime or email me at least!

Ace (in a Bucket~~~~> a bucket which will fill with tears if you've gone away.......<sniff sniff> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> )

Maggie,

I hope your 16-hour drive with your special cds and UA time were all you wished for.

And that you both sat on pillows (my rump hurts thinking about the duration involved).

Hope to see you on your return...maybe next week. Merry Christmas to you, your DH, and the rest of your loved ones.

LA

Just checkin' in to see how you're doing, Maggie. Looking forward to an update when you can.

Ace

Hey Maggiemagster.....Happy New Year to you and your DH. Hope all's well.

I've lifted your reference to the song from Melodylane's 'where'd she go' thread. "Brass in Pocket" by the Petenders. There's a poster here who said he played/sang bass with the Pretenders. Small world, huh?

So it is small enough for you to pop back in for a small update?

I hope you're having a good time with your DH and that you'll be able to check in soon.

Ace In Pocket

(Brass in Bucket)