To see my situation CLICK HERE

UPDATE:

Okay over the past week I have gone to great lengths to snoop, via email, phone logs, keylogger, etc. I have found some very graphic and hurtful things and feel like my emotions are very unstable as a result.

Last weekend I stumbled across information of the OM just discovering he had an STD....HSV II to be exact. My WW was very scared and obviously didn't confide in me, but was going to get testing. In a sick way, I was glad the OM had something because if my WW does not have it, all indications were that the relationship is now over. To my surprise, a few days later I became aware that they were planning to meet at a hotel with him flying in from his home 600 miles away. I immediately went home and confronted wife with all of my evidence and told her that I will be in jail that night if she chooses to go through with this. I told her I would follow her to the airport and keep this other man from laying a hand on her.

She was shocked that I knew so much information and was even more shocked at how strongly I was reacting. I never lose my temper and I was literally ready to go to jail to protect her from this guy and she knew I was dead serious.

We had a long talk and she assured me she had no intentions of sleeping with him and that basically this was one last meeting to say goodbye and that she could never be with him since he has this STD. She even invited me to go with her. I told her that I would if I thought she was going to go through with sleeping with him, but I believed her and she told me to call her throughout the day as many times as I would like to reassure myself that nothing was going to happen. I called her every 30 minutes and could tell they were in a public place so I feel comfortable that nothing happened.

She then came home that night and told me how hard it was going to be to not talk to him anymore because of the strong emotional ties and hopes she is strong enough to do it. I told her I would be there for her as needed.

Anyway, I felt so much better about how honest she was with me now that she knew I knew every last detail and was still willing to work things out when she was ready. However, yesterday she started asking me how I knew all of these things and sticking with MB principles I told her exactly how. She then flew off the handle and accused me of being the sneakiest, most manipulative person she had ever known. I was devastated and broke down while lashing out at her due to frustration. I couldn't believe that after everything she has put me through emotionally and I was still willing to help her get over the other man she would say something so hurtful after I was completely honest with her about it.

We went to a counseling appointment last night and both agreed it was better if I moved out for the time being. I am so emotionally unstable right now and break down with the smallest triggers and really believe that I can no longer continue Plan A effectively. I need advice on whether or not I should go into a dark Plan B and what might be going through her head right now. As of now, our plans are to spend Christmas at her folks and then the day after Christmas I am going to move out.

I have done a great Plan A to this point over the last 4 months and need to know whether I should continue that while I am no longer living there or if I should go to a dark Plan B. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

You LET her meet up with him to say goodbye?

I don't think you should have moved out, especially since you are the BS.

She doesn't like that her bad behavior has consequences? Too bad, so sad.

You had every right to snoop.

Go get a blood test for HSV, immediately.

Maggie....I tried to keep her from doing, but other than physically keeping her from doing it I could do nothing else. She basically felt so sorry for him because his family is now gone, she is now gone and he has no future of having a normal relationship with anyone else due to this STD.

I agree on the moving out, but we are trying to put all of our cash into finishing our basement so we can sell the house and pay off all of the bills. She has nowhere to go with family or friends and would have to rent a place. I can go stay with my father and his family while raising our daughter half the time around her loving grandparents so that is the best economical and emotional option for us. If circumstances were different believe me I would not be moving out.

Got the complete STD screening today and my WW is getting hers Friday.

Don't move out of your home - end of story!

If you need time apart, let her sleep in a different bedroom.

But don't leave your home!

Big mistake agreeing for them to meet to "say goodbye".

Go get tested if you think you have been exposed. Hope your wife gets tested too.

I would be sure to let OM's wife know that her hubby has an STD - just for her own protection.

Don't move out. If your wife is so miserable - SHE needs to leave, and without your child.

Thanks MIM and Believer. I really don't want to move out and my WS really is starting to see what life will be like after I move out. Last night I went to the store to stock up on everything for the dogs, cat, baby, etc. and I went over where I keep everything. She is really starting to see everything that I did around the house, how we enjoy so much spending time with our child together and play with her together.

In our counseling session a couple of nights ago we laid out the rules in regards to limited contact and she seemed fine with it then. I told her I will only be able to email her about issues concerning the baby and our child so I can get over this emotional time. Last night she said "I wish you weren't so fragile right now so we can do something on New Year's Eve". I just ignored her comment because she knows that I will be moved out by then and that is certainly not possible. Before she went to bed she made another comment. She said, "I hate it that you are moving out and wish you weren't so emotionally unstable right now." I ignored her again and just told her goodnight. This morning she is just continually staring at me watching me get the baby ready to take to her to day care. After a few minutes of staring she tears up and says, "You are breaking my heart. Now you are doing everything that I ever wanted you to do before as my husband." A few minutes later she starts crying again and says (for the 500th time since the beginning of Plan A), "Why didn't you do all of these things before we fell apart?".

I am moving the day after Christmas and am really confused if I am doing the right thing or not. I think when I am going it is really going to hit her hard and she is going to see a lot more clearly, but I am afraid that after awhile she will get used to me not being there and we will be over for good. Am I doing the right thing by moving out and going into a fairly dark Plan B or should I stay and continue to Plan A?

Like I mentioned in my original post, OM has just tested positive for HSV II which is a deal killer for my WW and she has told me so. However, OM is getting tested again to confirm and I am a little concerned he could lie to my wife about the test results to get her back. Both her and I got tested this week and are awaiting test results. If she tests positive and I don't than I am afraid that will give her the perfect excuse to continue affair with OM. I have already told her that if she tests positive, that changes nothing for me in regards to my desire for us to be a family and work on our marriage. She said that she would find it very difficult to continue our relationship if she tests positive and I don't because she doesn't want to give it to me.

Please, if someone could give me advice on whether or not I should move out or stay and continue Plan A it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm still on a huge rollercoaster myself but I agree ..

Do not leave your house, I did briefly against the advice of others here, thinking it would show my WW I was dedicated to working things out. The thing is, while I was interested in fixing us she only wanted to fix herself. Since I'm part of the problem I have to be part of the solution too.

And she's just gonna have to deal with that ...

DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOME. That is the WORST thing you could do. MelodyLane has a thread around here about the reasons why you never want to move out of the marital home if you are the BS. Also, you certainly don't want to allow her to take your child out of the home.

I'll see if I can find that thread.

The thread from MelodyLane actually ended up getting locked because of other people, but basically, here's what she says:

"I think this deserves its own thread since it seems to be a fairly common problem….for MEN. About once a month a newcomer will show up here who has left his own home at the behest of a wayward wife in an active affair. She asks him to leave so she can “have space” and “think about the marriage.” The poor devastated soul usually believes that appeasing her will save his marriage. It is the EXACT OPPOSITE. She is asking him to move out so she can carry on her affair without his interference.

Moving out only serves to ENABLE the affair at the expense of his own marriage and children’s security. The WW is now free to carry on her affair from the safety and comfort of her own home. It is not uncommon for her to actually INVITE the OM into the home and introduce him to the children.

She often has fantasies of replacing the BS with the OM. Of course, the BS is still paying the mortgage so he is, in effect, not only enabling the affair but FINANCING it. Otherwise known as the ContributeToYourOwnDemise Program.

Some reasons why moving out is dangerous:

1. It enables the affair

2. It is viewed as abandonment by many courts

3. Separation INCREASES the risk of divorce and impedes chances of recovery [you can’t recover if you aren’t there!]

4. Many men – on this very forum – have had to get COURT ORDERS just to get back into their own homes

5. Children are exposed to affair partner, which is morally confusing and increases the risk they will be sexually molested/abused/killed

6. It is DEVASTATING to children! Your children need you now more than ever. You are ALL THEY HAVE since their mother’s brain has been abducted by aliens.

In short, moving out is always a huge mistake unless it is to effect Plan B.

I am always baffled about why men will do this, because a woman wouldn't sacrifice her own home and her children because her husband was in an affair and wanted some “space.” The only way I would leave is if my husband’s pistol was BIGGER than mine! Even at that, I am a better shot than him, so that might not even do it. It might take a SWAT TEAM!

If your wayward wife asks you to move out so she can “have space,” suggest she either go in the bathroom and shut the door or be a gentleman and clean out a corner in your garage for her. But, whatever you do, DON’T LEAVE YOUR HOME, GUYS!!

If you have fallen for this manipulation tactic and left your home, don’t despair. The mistake is usually easily corrected by packing your bag and GOING HOME NOW. No warning, no nothing. Just get in the car and go home and move right back into your OWN BED. When you walk in simply say “HI HONEY, I AM HOME!!” and give her a smile and a peck on the cheek. If she objects tell her you live there and intend to stay. SMILE.

THIS ADVICE ALSO APPLIES TO FEMALE BETRAYED SPOUSES! "

just bumped the post that I could from Melody Lane......

Men, Don't Leave Your Home!

Hi ManInNeed,

I hate to go against the prevailing "wisdom" here, but you certainly can use the option of moving out of the house with regards to Plan B. In fact, that was part of my 'successful' Plan B strategy done with Steve Harley's counsel and blessing.

Having said that---I'm not at all familiar with your situation. My first, and always best suggestion---especially with any of the 'big 3' issues (discovering an affair, preparing for separation, preparing for recovery), is that you call the Harley's and arrange some marriage coaching. I know that you have a counselor already, but just with the little blurb you posted about it---I'm not sure they have what it takes to get you through this.

From the tone of your posts, it appears that you're pretty emotional now. I remember those days. Didn't like them much. My doc put me on Wellbutrin, which did a nice job of taking the edge off, and allowed me to behave in a more controlled manner. If you're not on an antidepresant yet, you might consider this as well.

Also---the spying crap must stop. Once you know your spouse is having an affair---it's very bad for you to be doing it. Why??? Because every time you discover something new, it eats away at your lovebank. If you end up quitting on the marriage today---it may be over. You want to limit your exposure to that stuff. So don't spy. That's another Harley tip.

With regard to your wife. She's an addict. She's behaving like an addict. Including the lashing out, the blaming you for being sneaky, etc. It's all in 'Wayward Spouses 101: We all do the same stupid things..." Try to rationalize your wife's behavior as an addiction rather than a personal assult on you as a person---it should give you the ability to be more compassionate, and give you a bit more lasting power in Plan A.

So---to summarize:

1. Don't do anything until you call the Harley's.

2. Get on some anti-depressant meds if you're not already.

3. No more spying or any other harmful activities with regard to your love for your wife. Try to keep things light around the house over the next week, focused on the family (I know this isn't easy).

4. Your wife is an addict. Don't be surprised when she acts like one. Don't get sucked in either.


The next couple weeks are the worse. I was about 2 months into my plan A during the Christmas season. I could regail you with lots of fun stories about that---but trust me, I know how difficult it is for you. I went on anti-D's at this time, and it gave me another good three months of Plan A ability.

Try to work this out for at least another month before you think about executing Plan B. And you want to do that on your terms, if possible...

ManInNeed:

Read CJ's summary of Plan B---it's great with regard to the tactics. This may be where you're heading to, but I don't think you're there quite yet...

[edited because the old man forgot to put the link in...]

Do not move out of your home. She needs space let her leave.
Leaving puts you in a weaker legal standing when it is time to lawyer up. It also makes it very easy for the WW to have the OM in your bed with her.

At this time you are in to bad of a mental state to make decisions as to divorce her or try recover. Take your time, several months before you decide.

"I wish you weren't so fragile right now so we can do something on New Year's Eve" "I hate it that you are moving out and wish you weren't so emotionally unstable right now." "You are breaking my heart. Now you are doing everything that I ever wanted you to do before as my husband." "Why didn't you do all of these things before we fell apart?"

WW appears to be having second thought, afraid of losing you. Maybe she is entering the fence sitting mode.

Why would you not want to use her approach to tell her that you are willing to work at being a better husband and that you want her to have NC with the OM and for the both of you to work on learning how to recover your marriage?

Wouldn't this be better then leaving your house?

K makes a good point about spying. Once you know, don't keep checking. I had made the mistake of continuing to read every email I got from my keylogger and every time I opened one it made me feel horrible even if there was nothing in it except the WW saying hello to the OM. Every keystroke has become a painful dagger to me and it's not worth it. In my experience it leads to LB's.

If you need the proof let someone else gather it IMO, otherwise focus on a plan.

Last night my WW and I took our daughter and a little boy we are mentoring out for dinner and then all went shopping. The entire night she was b*tching about every little thing I was doing. From the way I was driving to the way to the I poured water into the baby's glass. It was just non-stop and incessant like she was trying to pick a fight. I finally asked her what is bothering her besides all of the little things that she keeps picking at. She said "Nothing, that I was getting on her f'ing nerves and that I act like a kid that she has to take care of". I then calmly asked what she was talking about because if the way I poured water into a glass bothered and the way I drove bothered her how does that have anything to do with acting like a kid. She just kept on and on with the hurtful comments and I just calmly asked her if we could dial it down because this is not the way I wanted to spend the last few days together before I moved out. She then just kept hammering on me about the same little things until we finally got home like she wanted to start a fight. I refused to get drawn into it and just said I have no idea what is bothering, but what she was saying was hurtful, unproductive and unnecessary.

About 20 minutes after we get home she comes up to me, hugs me and said "I will make you a deal, if you quit driving like a maniac I will quit b*tching." I just said okay because I didn't want to get drawn into an emotional conversation.

I have no idea what prompted her behavior last night and need some insight. I do know that OM is with his BS out of town for the holidays and that my WW has not been in as regular of contact as normal. Also, since I am just a few days from moving out that may have something to do with it as well.

Any ideas or insight on what this might be all about? Thanks in advance.

I can't address your WW's behavior, but about these...



Haven't you listened to anyone? DO NOT MOVE OUT!

ManInNeed,

Wow---Steve must have had a pretty free calendar. You got to talk with him, discuss the situation, and he's already recommended you going to Plan B.

Terrific <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Stop with the moving out crap, please. It's not advisable for you at this point, and by reiterating this to your wife, you're just making yourself up to be a bigger liar when you don't.

[color:"red"]Call the HARLEY'S. NOW!!![/color]

Why are you moving out? WTF? WAKE UP MAN! Its a bad idea that you will regret almost instantly. DON'T DO IT!

You move out, you just abandoned your family in the eyes of the courts. She files for divorce while you're moved out, and they issue temporary orders regarding custody and living arrangements that screw you for a long time!

I very much hope you rethink this.

MiN:

Don't MOVE out.

She WANTS you to. That is ONE good reason NOT to.

Poor OM. He has no one left. Except your WW.

And you are making room for him.

So Don't Move out.

Her being B**chy with you? Well DUH!

If you get MAD at her, then it makes it easier for her to justify her horrible actions.

She doesn't remember all the horrible things she does to YOU, only what you DO to HER.

Next time OM flys in for an afternoon rendevous with your WW, (and you would be surprised at what they can do between and during your every 30 minute phone "check up" conversations) YOU should meet the airplane.

And snooping, K has a point about that, but since you revealed your source, it doesn't matter now. She isn't going to let you in.

And she calls you the sneakiest, most manipulative person in the world? Wheres that kettle black paint?

But she doesn't CARE what she DOES, only WHAT YOU DO TO INTERFERE.

So, move out at your own peril.

You WILL feel good for a WHILE.

"SEE, I SHOWED HER!"

But, as you stay OUT, only bad things happen.

The Affair gets easier.
The court will look on your departure in a negative light, and you will fight LONG and HARD to reverse THAT.
WW gets to feel even MORE entitled.

So Stay HOME.

On the 26th, just tell her: "Oops, I changed my mind. I made a vow on our wedding day, in sickness and health, so I haven't moved out."

Just my .02.

LG

MIN,
Oh, and by the way, did anyone tell you, DO NOT MOVE OUT?!!!!!

"I am moving the day after Christmas and am really confused if I am doing the right thing or not."

You are confused because you are not hearing what just about everyone here is saying to you. You are getting some awesome help from some AWESOME peaple here. I hope you start listening up here. These folks have been there, as I have. Please do not move out.

"On the 26th, just tell her: "Oops, I changed my mind. I made a vow on our wedding day, in sickness and health, so I haven't moved out."

What lg said.

God Bless,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

MIN.....

Repeat this early and often....

"I will not move, I will not move..."

Just be Dorothy and click your heels together if you have to:

"There's no place like home, I will NOT move..."

Or pretend you are a new recruit in the army in training:

"Wayward Wife I will not move!!!

Gonna change my attitude!

Sound off....."

Etc.

DO NOT MOVE!!!!!!!

That's an order, Marine!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for all sounding off. My mind is made up and I am NOT moving out. If she wants to move out that is on her. Your input is greatly appreciated and has made a difference. Thanks again.

Hurrah for MIN!!!!

Way to go buddy!!!

Merry Christmas and God Bless you and your family this season.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

YAY!!!! MIN!!!!!

You made my day, Clint!!! LOL!!!!

We're behind ya' Dude!!!!

Good decision. It's a start to save the M. I see some moments of your previous posts of your wife trying to reach out. This is a good sign - don't discount them.

Now you need to get a plan - follow K's advice.

Did you get an Anti-D prescription while at the Dr office for the STD check? Your emotions are still raw & they can take some of the edge off of them.

Take care of yourself - this isn't going to be fixed overnight. Enjoy the holiday season now that you have made a decision to save your family.

yay MIN!

MIN,

Smart decision. Be prepared though, because when you tell her you changed your mind she is going to be Pi$$ed. I think that you have an excellent chance of saving your M because it sounds like she may be questioning this whole thing.

MIN,

I just wanted to add my prayers and support for staying in your home. I think now that the affair is out in the open....that your Plan A actually has a better chance of working. Continue to demonstrate consistently that you ARE willing to be the husband she's always wanted....without taking the responsibility for the affair. Even if she had legitimate complaints, she had lots of ethical ways she could have addressed the marriage problems....so don't accept any blame-shifting about the affair.

I'm glad you're not moving out. Stay strong buddy.

(((((((((((((((((min)))))))))))))))))))

Okay....crazy things just happened, but I am still not moving out.

I snooped again and found out that my WW booked a flight to go see him next weekend despite him having this STD. I couldn't believe my eyes. I then wrote a Plan B letter telling her how much I love her, but couldn't do this any longer and was just going to let her go.

She was livid after she read it because she now knows that I snooped again and also was livid because I told her I couldn't go to her folks (7 hour drive away) due to my emotional state as it would just be too hard.

She then starts going off on me telling me to Go To H*ll and telling me F you and everything else. Also, I called her dad and mother for the first time to expose and let them know the decision she was getting ready to make in regards to seeing this guy again with an STD. They were mortified and are going to do everything they can to talk her out of it.

So what I have now is this:

1) She is highly p*issed about the Plan B letter.

2) She is highly p*ssed about having to drive the 7 hours by herself with our daughter to her folks.

3) She will be even more furious when she finds out about exposure to her parents.

4) She has called me every name in the book and said she is filing for the divorce on Monday using her ex-husband as the attorney.

Long story short I am going to have a miserable Christmas without my wife and child in a large empty house when just 2 days ago there were such great signs that our marriage had a chance.

I feel like I did what I had to do considering the STD issues, but now I am headed for a divorce next week and my wife literally hates my guts and never wants to see me again. All of her nasty feelings and words are even before she finds out about exposure so I fully expect it to get much worse. How in the world did all of this happen so quick? Help and advice needed more than ever.

MIN:

I know that you're hurting and you don't need to be B-slapped---but you really need to be B-slapped.

1. Stop the spying. Did it help you? NO!
2. Plan B is a carefully crafted plan, not some reaction to something your spouse does. Another great quote around here: Be the thermostat---not the thermometer. Act---don't REACT! You're completely reacting.
3. Call Steve Harley and get an appointment. You're not keeping this together, and it's patently clear that this will not be a DIY project.

You're getting the help and advice you need here---you're just not taking it. And IGNORE your wife---she's an addict, and you've just threatened her stash. It's classic addictive behavior. It means nothing with regard to your long-term success chances.

And don't drink hard now...

I guess I am justifying my snooping because of the fact I knew my wife would be too weak to keep from seeing him and considering the fact he could endanger her health with his STD I thought I was doing the right thing. This is a little different circumstance than other types of spying, but who knows.

THanks for everyone's support and don't worry....got my Zoloft and Xanax and will take as needed. I'm a lightweight when it comes to alcohol so no worries.

Oh, of course she is angry. Ignore it and tell her you will do what is necessary to protect your family.

Also be sure to call OM's wife and let her know that a tryst is on for next weekend.

Good job on exposing to her parents.

MIN:

Don't justify snooping. It's not a surprise that your wife is weak---she's an addict. She also didn't actually do it---and with WS's, even when they appear like they have a plan with the OP, they can be pretty screwed up on that side too.

Do you think she knows he has an STD? If the answer is yes---then stop it. If she sleeps with him and ends up infected, that is her decision. You can't stop her from it. It would be so terrific if we could just rationally tell WS's exactly how they'll screw up their existence if they continue down the path they're on---but it doesn't work that way.

Done the experiment... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well that explains why she wants to separate - doesn't it? Giving space is allowing the OM in. But we already knew that - right - didn't need to snoop

Why would you change plans now for Christmas? This recent anger will blow over. You need to get some self-control and a plan in place asap. When will the STD results come in?

Plan B should come after a good Plan A anyway, so don't go there. A self imposed separation is the last thing your M needs now with the OM and STD waiting in the wings.

STD results will be in near the end of next week. I guess I am trying to be the protective husband considering the STD issue. I have done a phenomenal Plan A, but should have definitely thought through the Plan B before giving her the letter. With the STD issue I thought that if he had it and she didn't that this would end, but she didn't even go a week before booking a flight to go see him so I definitely just reacted instead of thinking this through.

The only thing about today that I don't regret is I finally exposed to both of her parents which has been the thing I have been putting off due to her threats about never being with me again if I told them.

Exposure is your best weapon. That is the ONE THING you've done right!!!!!!!

In this specific case (a health risk of their daughter), I think the use of exposure to her parents was highly appropriate. It's a good tactical use of the technique.

MIN,

Please stop for a second and allow your emotions to calm down a little bit. I don't have to guess at how crummy you're feeling....I remember. But your emotions and intuition will drive you in the wrong direction right now. One of my favorite posters, ark^^ says "be still". It's better to do nothing than to ride the reaction rollercoaster and do all kinds of things you'll regret later. Your wife his going to be saying all kinds of things that are meaningless. Until she actually ends contact and gets through withdrawal....she will make all kinds of threats and insults like most WSs do. If you can remember that you're not talking to the wife you know right now....it will help. I hope her parents will be a grounding influence on her during Christmas. She didn't want them to know....and she threatened you so strongly....because she knows that she'll be held accountable. She recognizes the amount of guilt and remorse their knowing will create. But those are things that will help clear her foggy head.

Your daughter needs one of her parents to be clear headed. I'm electing you. Sending prayers your way.

Thanks for your support. The next few days alone will give me a chance to get my act together and regroup. Even though I won't be spending Christmas with my WW and child I think it will do me a world of good.

Exactly, you need to get into a plan and stop reacting. Plan B is going to get you to Plan D, because you aren't anywhere near set up for it.

That being said, we all made mistakes and this one isn't a deal breaker. Don't worry about what she does. Files for divorce, gets pissed off, whatever, just because she files doesn't mean you'll end up divorced.

Good job exposing, that is a good step. Who else can you expose to? Is OM married? I think you said no. Church groups, anything like that? Since you've started, you should hurry up and expose to everyone that might be able to help.

Good job also deciding not to move out! Let her move, do NOT let her take your child with her! She is not acting in the best interests of your child and is not showing the judgement required of a fit parent. It is your job to protect your child!

Start studying Plan A and implementing it effectively. No more LB, no explosions or relationship talks or any of that. Any fights she tries to start, just tell her "I believe in our marriage and hope we can sometime soon begin to work to make it a happy marriage for both of us. That can't happen with OM in the picture." and leave it at that.

Its hard, we KNOW its hard. Come here to vent and learn the proper ways to react to her insanity.

You're going to be ok MiN, this slip wasn't too bad, you just gotta get your wits about you and start taking control of the things you can control, primarily yourself and the well being of your child. Let her do what she's going to do, that doesn't mean there won't be consequences, just stop talking to her about what those are and do your thing.

Oh! Is the credit card she used to purchase the plane tickets in your name? If so, call and cancel the tickets.

Don't back down about the snooping, when she flips out and accuses you of not trusting her, just tell her "no, I don't. Should I?" and leave it. I think you should continue to snoop but be more discreet, you need to know as much as you can about what's going on, just stop tipping your hand. React as you need to to protect yourself, just don't react to HER about it.

MIN,

If you are going to snoop, you need to be non-reactive.

I snooped, but learned to step back and not react. Heck, my H didn't know the half of it, yes, it hurt, but I used it as a tool to plan A. The info helped alot, because when the xow was all "blahblahblah, you need to do this and that", (complaining or advising), I wouldn't do anything except be positive and tell him what a good person he 'really' was. In other words, I did the opposite. You see, I had the code to his voicemail. He never changed it. Yes, I had TMI, and it was much harder to recover, but it helped me lay my plan out.

So, my advice, if you are going to snoop, is to be wise as a snake and innocent as a dove.

If you can't keep the info to yourself without reacting, then perhaps you shouldn't snoop.

I agree with the others that you NEED A PLAN.

I would go get some anti anxiety meds from the Dr, such as Xanax, and get yourself to the inlaws over Christmas with your WS. You need to get ahold of yourself. If you are out of control emotionally, get some help.

Go for Christmas, and plan A. Just tell your WS that you will do whatever it takes to protect your M. You know you will be miserable by yourself. STOP and step back before you flap your lips. LOL. You are all over the map, so listen to these awesome people here and stop reacting.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

While I agree with K's general point about protecting yourself from pain you don't need, I would argue that you learned quite a lot by this. You found out just how deceptive she will be and how trapped in the A she is. And you were motivated to jump to Plan-B and might not have been otherwise. I don't think it was without value.

- WG

Okay...WW just got to her folks and they immediately told her everything I had told them. She text message'd me and told me "You are dead to me" for exposing her. I told her ILYVM and she told me to go to h*ll.

I know she is just reacting harshly, but this is very hard to hear from someone you love so much.

I keep hearing that exposure is the best weapon I have and that exposure won't kill my marriage, but an affair will. I am trusting this with all of my heart and hope my WW gets over this anger.

Excellent response. You get extra credit for not apologizing for the exposure.

In her mind you are ruining her existence. Her world is collapsing. It may get worse before it gets better, but stay a bit detached and don't take it personally. (I got wishes for my death, spitting in my face, lots of nastiness.)

- WG

WG...so far I haven't received anything near that. How did things end up?

The fireworks aren't over yet, because it was just her mom and stepdad that confronted her. Tomorrow is her real dad and he is highly upset with her.

MIN,

When people come to this place....especially this board...their marriages are usually hanging by threads. These strategies don't come with guarantees....they are last ditch efforts to recover the marriage in the midst of infidelity.

Exposure is like chemotherapy....the cure is almost as bad as the cancer....but once the cancer is dead....the body can finally begin to recover. Not every marriage recovers after infidelity....or even survives the process of fighting infidelity....but these are the techniques that have proven to work in one case after another around here....and we have alot of faith in them because we've witnessed how they work.

Some WSs take a while to forgive after exposure....but surprisingly....most of them do, and usually pretty quickly. Right now, she's blaming her misery over the fact that her parents know something so awful about her....on you. But there is already a part of her that knows she created the mess she's in.

Exposure seems like an "event" because it's so explosive, but it's really a process that takes a time to work because it exerts pressure on the affair over time....creating accountability for the WS.

Let her get over the shock that her secret is out. Once she realizes that you and her parents still love her....even though they know her worst secrets....she may begin to understand how much more REAL that kind of love is, compared to the fantasy of the affair.

Now, what are your plans for Christmas? Do you have family or friends you can be with. I'd really like to know you won't be alone because you need some support right now.

I've failed. My WW and I are divorcing. But don't reason from the specific to the general; your situation is different.

In my case, my WW is probably a sociopath and we had no kids together.

While your in-laws appear to be initially supportive of your attempts to salvage your M, be aware that families usually stick by even their horribly behaving kids/siblings. And your WW who has been cheating, will quite possibly tell horrible lies about you and 'reinvent' your marital history. If it happens, don't get too spun up about it; its just a little more insult to the injury.

BTW, an earlier, rasher post of yours mentioned your willingness to face jail time. My advice would be to do nothing that could result in your being charged by the police. You really can't control your out-of-control W's actions. Ultimately, you want her to choose you and the M of her own free will. Plan-A shows you off as attractive as can be and sets up some of your own boundaries. Plan-B confronts her with additional negative consequences and a chance to rethink the destructive path.

Best wishes. And Merry Christmas from all of us here at MB.

- WG

Star...yes I have a very good family here locally and will be spending time with them over Christmas. Surprisingly the vicious attacks coming across my phone aren't bothering me as much as I thought after hearing some of the exposure stories on here.

Exposure is something I have been dreading, but I know I did it for the right reasons (risk of STD) and I am so glad I finally did it.

What does everyone think of me just going silent for the next 4 days while she is out of town instead of responding to her vicious emails, TM's and voice mails?

Thanks WG...your words of encouragement are much appreciated. My WW was the best wife I could have ever wished for until these last 4 months and it's like a completely different person. We have an 18 month old daughter who is our entire world.

I have never seen anything like the Fog and Viciousness that she is experiencing and spewing. She is threatening anything she can to get me to quit exposing. First divorce, then threatening full custody, then calling the authorities and getting me in trouble for things I didn't even do and on and on and on.

I can really see that this will only be temporary if I continue to not respond to these because she will simply runt out of things to say to get a reaction out of me. Thoughts of going silent for the next few days?

What was in your Plan B letter? Typically you state that you will not be communicating with her to save your love for her, until she can commit to NC and transparency. If so, then not contacting her seems appropriate.

However, you may have hastily made that decision and aren't ready to back it up. While consistency and following up on your word are very important, you need to decide on a strategy. Maybe you need a good night's sleep.

Two days ago you wrote that you couldn't stay in Plan A any longer (after doing it well for 4 months) ... How do you feel today? You might make a list of pros and cons for Plan A/B.

- WG

She's going to try and bait you....so that you'll get mad enough to do something she can point to and justify her actions. Don't let her. I would say only to remain silent while she is raging. If she calms down and reaches out...respond to her and let her know that you haven't given up.

Play it by ear...see what her next move is....you don't have to make any decisions set in stone right now. The best thing you can do is show calm confidence about the way you're handling things and your willingness to keep working on the marriage. Now that the big explosion is over....let the dust settle so you can see what's still there. I'm glad you realize that this rage will probably burn itself out fairly quickly. You're right....if you don't respond....she'll run out of steam.

Sleep on it. Take some Tylenol PM or something if you have to....but get some rest. I'm glad you have your family there. I'm going to get some sleep myself.

Hey MiN!!

I don't think you should waste your time responding to such attacks.

It only serves to upset you and she WANTS you to respond so she can say, "See? I knew....(add WS babble here)!!"

And also so she can justify seeing OM again.

Then she'll be tellin' him: "MiN treats me SO bad OM! You should see what he told me in *email, text, on the phone*!!!"

Don't give her any ammo!!!

That's funny you say that because she has said in several of her IM's that I have just made her decision easier. She also said something that was so silly I didn't even respond. She said "Even if OM and I don't work out I will never be with you again". Nice to know that I made the cut for her backup plan in case she finds out the cheating liar doesn't turn out like she thinks it will.

Just for those that don't know...here are the things that are working against their affair:

1) They are 600 miles apart and neither one of them will probably leave their child to be with the other one.

2) She already had doubts about OM prior to the STD issue in regards to honesty and the fact that he has cheated before.

3) He has tested positive for HSV II and she wants know part of it according to what she told me. However, 2 days after she found out he flew into town and they met. Another 2 days after that she books tickets to his town to be with him. Both of these instances is what prompted my exposure or I probably would have just let this affair die a natural death. I was scared to death that my WW would be weak and have sex with OM which is why I stepped in both times and tried to stop her.

Excellent advice by starfish.

BTW, are you prepared for dealing with the test results for WW and yourself when they come back?

I'm not at all concerned about my test results and really didn't even need to get tested since I haven't had sex with my wife since a week before the EA started online. However I did go ahead and error on the side of caution to be sure.

I am however scared to death that if my wife has this it will simply push her towards the arms of the OM.

I have already told her that if she has it, that I still want to save our marriage and if I end up with it as a result than I am prepared for that without reservation.

How did you find out about his STD? Did they have a PA without protection?

You said before that your W will definately walk away if she knew that the OM and his W were doing fine before she came into the picture. So, have you consider asking the OM's wife to call your W and confirm. I think it's especially effective and more believalbe that the OM's wife is filing for divorce and has not other motive but to be honest.

I have had extensive conversations with the OM's wife and she has no interest in saving their marriage at this point. Also, OM has made it clear he will give up everything for my WW including his child.

I pointed this out to my wife, that if you are getting involved with someone that is willing to give up his child what kind of guy is he really? Didn't do any good due to the fog and the lies he keeps telling my WW. There is nothing more I can say or do at this point in regards to OM. This is a complete addiction for her and based on what she is saying now, it doesn't matter if the affair ends or not, she is not interested in saving our marriage.

Stay tuned...tomorrow will be interesting. Thanks for everyone's help again.

BA...found out through snooping via keylogger last week and apparently HSV II can be spread even with the use of a condom and no current outbreak due to sloughing of the virus. I have no idea whether the sex was protective sex, but WW said it was. After learning that it can still be spread it really scared her into getting tests immediately.

Did he tell her about his STD after or before they had sex? Why isn't she mad at him that he didn't inform her that it can still be spread even with protection?

She actually found it from him after he got tested and I found out using keylogger.

WHat happened is she confronted him about someone else he had slept with and told him that she was no longer going to sleep with him unless he got tested. He said no problem and went and got tested that day. 3 days later he gets the test back and it's positive for HSV II. That is when the shine came flying off the affair. However 2 days later she is letting him fly into town to supposedly say goodbye. 2 days after that she is booking plane tickets to go see him next weekend so I guess the STD didn't scare her as much as I thought it initially did.

This just confirmed to me that she is in so much of a fog that there is nothing I can do or say to convince her otherwise and wrote my Plan B letter today.

BA:

Are you asking MIN, or his W? He can't answer that.

-ol' 2long

BA...sorry misunderstood your question. He apparently didn't know about STD until after my WW insisted he get tested after finding out that he had also cheated on his wife with another woman as well. Neither the OM or my WW or myself knew that this could be spread even with protection since it can be spread without the exchange of bodily fluids through sloughing of the virus.

Once it was discovered about his positive test is when OM, my WW and myself all started researching this in depth.

MIN:

You need 2 be aware that BA is not speaking from a position of personal experience or wisdom of any kind.

The rest of the posters here have first-hand experience with infidelity.

Okay, now lets roll up our sleeves and get down 2 business, shall we?

First, I'm glad you're not moving out.

2nd, I'm sorry you decided 2 let her meet the OM at the airport 2 say goodbye. It would have been better if you'd gone along, provided you aren't prone 2 violence. But it's over.

3rd, I'm sorry you didn't go with your W and daughter 2 visit with the in-laws. 2nd best would have been 2 let her go, but leave your daughter with you. But it's done. I would continue 2 talk 2 her, but don't engage her in arguments, and ignore her attacks on you by responding with love for her. If she mentions divorce, either ignore her or simply tell her that you don't do divorce and then change the subject.

4th, do not have sex with your wife until the affair is over and she (and you) have been given a clean bill of health.

5th, who paid for the tickets? If it's on a joint credit card, cancel the reservation and put a freeze on the card as quickly as possible. If the cards in her name and she earns the money herself 2 cover it, then let her go if she's inclined, but WITHOUT your daughter.

Really, this should be number one: Make an appointment with one of the Harleys RIGHT AWAY. Your "plan" isn't one at the moment, and you desperately need a good one in this si2ation. Don't just rely on our help.

6th: I snooped for a long time after d-day, but at some point the information you get hurts more than it helps. Once you know what's going on, you don't really need the details anymore until your in recovery (if even then, just 2 have all the pieces of the puzzle). Snooping tended 2 make me crazy with suspicion after a while. When you do snoop, do it for intelligence gathering only. You don't need 2 confront her anymore, because you know what's going on (and of course, she does). Don't reveal your sources. It would have been sufficient 2 just tell her you knew.

Your si2ation may be delicate but it's eminently recoverable. You're new 2 this, so you need 2 give plan A a lot more time than you have. And it's far 2 soon for B.

-ol' 2long

MIN,

I would really listen to what K has to say, a very, very wise man.

Please practice not reacting to everything. Please step back before you say one word, think of what is healthiest for you, your daughter, and your marriage.

Please listen to what K and other vets like star*fish have to say before you do anything. Ask on this thread first, BEFORE you do or say anything.

God Bless, have a Merry Christmas, you are in my prayers.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

MIN:

You're getting some great advice from some very solid, experienced posters. I'm sorry you're dealing with all of this, particularly during the holidays.

My only advice to you is to make sure that you act, don't react. (It's only too easy to react to a wayward spouse who is doing seemingly crazy stuff) A call to the Harleys would not be amiss, as K wisely suggested. They can help you with a concrete plan of action to recover your marriage.

PK

MIN,

Please, please listen to the advice you are getting here. I found MB late, and was sure my situation was different so didn't always follow the advice - and I should have.

I implemented Plan B the wrong way, basically by reacting as you did. I did this a couple of times. Then I would fall for WH's lies about wanting to save the M and let him back without doing the NC letter. Again, I thought he was different somehow.

What I found out in the end is that he was a text book case. Heck, he could have written the book.

So please, listen and let the pros here walk you through this. I did it too late and I'm now in Plan B the right way but it may be too late.

Also, get your emotions in check because your current state is not attractive to your spouse. I made that mistake too. I weeped, moped, and reacted far too long.

Lastly, let the Harleys help you. I started working with Jennifer and she helped me get back on track and actually had me do a few things that I wouldn't have done otherwise.

Well, the 5% of her left brain that is functioning was perhaps scared, but the rest of it would rationalize: "I'll never get it", "We were safe", etc... Despite my WW's medical training, she had unprotected sex and the guys she chose appear to have extensive, if not diverse histories. Its like a teenager mentality of being invulnerable.

- WG

ManInNeed, I think you're wife is very fogged. She still wants to be with him after knowing about the lying, cheating and STD. Did you inform her parents about HIS STD? She is flying to visit him next weekend, right? Byu then will her test result be out? Maybe her parents can talk her out of going to see him.

MaInNeed, one day the truth is going to come out about who he really is and ventually will make sense to her. Not sure by then, you will still want to stick around.

BA...she keeps telling me to give her some time and that this affair will be over within a few months. From what she is telling me she wants me to stand by until this is over. Until yesterday I didn't expose because I wanted to believe her, but I was not going to stand by without doing at least something to try and get her to stop this dangerous game she is playing.

Both of her parents now know that she is planning to go to see him next weekend and they know about the STD. I am hoping that her parents can put pressure on her.

I now am starting to understand how important exposure is. Constant pressure and disapproval from her family and friends will take it's toll on the fantasy and shake her back to reality.

Until now, she has completely justified her actions in her own mind and threatened me against exposure with everything she can. Now that it is all out in the open it's like a huge relief. But, wow the anger and cruelty coming from her mouth after exposing is like nothing I have ever seen.

Unfortunately Hopeforus original thread was deleted. This was perfect example of how exposure worked to his advantage. In fact - his situation made the big change once the OMW became involved.

Not sure what parental exposure will do overall but your concern for her safety, safety of your child and attempt to save your marriage is a noble task and should be conveyed to her parents.

MIN:

Let me say this again, a little more forcefully, for some his2ry since you're new here:

You would be well advised 2 ignore BA's posts 2 you. This forum is for people with experience in recovering from infidelity 2 help themselves and others newly given this particular cross 2 bear, or still struggling with recovery after an A has ended.

BA has no experience, as evidenced by their unwillingness 2 tell their story. BA used 2 post more 2 another board that also used 2 have higher "drama" than MB. This forum has un42nately devolved somewhat in2 a battle among long time MBers over how 2 deal with internet trolls. People like BA feed on that negativity and drama, and since this board has more of it at the moment than Loveshack.org, where BA is most recently from, BA spends most of its time here.

-ol' 2long

2long...understood loud and clear. Thanks.

Be prepared. This will likely backfire, though it might not. Usually, a foggy WS will simply go further underground when pressured 2 end their A.


Again, pressure is good up 2 a point. In the end, it's your W who needs 2 wake up entirely of her own volition that will save your marriage, if it is destined 2 be saved.

-ol' 2long

Your welcome.

Be also aware that I'm a scientist, and I can' prove anything 2 be 100% true. I could be wrong, but I don't believe I am.

BA could of course step up 2 the plate and post their story and/or explain what they're here for and prove me "wrong".

I'll wait.

In the meantime, you have resources here aplenty. Make good use of them!

-ol' 2long

2long, point to any comment or advice that I have given that's harmful in anyway, I'll start listening to you. Untill then, you do your post and I'll do mine.

Back to MIN, I think you're doing great with the exposure, even though I think you should have done earlier. Since your W is so mad at you right now, I think it would be wise to stay away from her for a little while untill she cools down.

You haven't posted your story. It's not what you do post (I don't read all of it, just enough here and on Loveshack 2 know that it's hollow at best), it's what you don't post.

You don't answer direct questions about you that are posed 2 you. You haven't told anyone why you're here.

There's no credibility behind your advice. I don't think it's wrong for me 2 warn a newbie 2 be careful here.

-ol' 2long

2long, once again, you have admitted yourself that it's not what I posted that you disagree with. With that being said, it should be the end of our discussion, because, as you probably agree, I am not giving toxic or destructive advice. If that's the case, people would have been quoting me and attacking me constantly. So, let's end this conversation and get back to MIN, shall we?

Lets not do this again guys, or if you have to do it, start a new thread for you both to bicker. Its discourteous to ManInNeed to engage in this type of behavior in his thread, you're likely to get it locked with your back and forth. Put each other on ignore if that's what you have to do.

And the hits just keep on coming. Went to put gas in the car and looks like she cleaned out our bank account. I will have to get my direct deposit moved to a different account on Monday it looks like. Just got paid yesterday so I guess my plan for exposure should have been a little more thought out in regards to timing.

My WW is a little calmer today and when I say that I mean her nasty messages no longer are filled with expletives. It's hard to believe that there is hope for us someday in the future because she is convinced that I only exposed to hurt her.

I had a brief conversation with WW in a very calm voice and just asked her to put some money back in the account. She was still furious and said that since I have decided to make this ugly by telling her parents than that is what is going to happend. She is going to take ugly to a whole new level she said.

I just told her that she can be ugly all she wants, but that I wasn't going down that road with her. I then just reitterated to her that the only reason I told her mother and father is for her safety and someday she would realize that. I then just told her I love her very much and said bye. All of this was in a very calm unemotional tone. Did I do more damage than good?

You did fine. Just keep telling her you still believe in the marriage and will do whatever it takes to make it happy for both of you.

Do what is necessary to protect your families assets from her irrational behavior. Don't do it as punishment, do it as protection, for her and you.

Also, you would do well to start considering your actions, asking questions here to figure out the best way to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish, instead of reporting what you've done and then scrambing around to do damage control. Use the plans and the wisdom here to your advantage.

MIN,

Wanted to chime in here with kudos, putting them with Tyk's.

Well done! You stand for what you do and say. That's the fog breaker. You change from reacting to your feelings (which is what your WW is doing), to acting from your beliefs. Drastic difference.

Now, take it further. Do not remain present for her expletives. In your calm, sure and respectful voice, when the first swear word comes out, say, "Swearing isn't healthy for me any longer. I now understand how much it harms communication. I want to listen to you, to understand. I won't though, if you continue swearing."

Use your own words here...and do not allow yourself to swear. Really cripples communication...does not express what you may think it does, opens floodgates for DJs and assumptions. This is important. If she continues with the expletives, the DJs, then you state you are removing yourself for 15 minutes while you calm down from the attack (they attack) and will return. Then you do it. Not manipulatively...to bolster your own goal of not reacting to your feelings, rather acting to your code.

Take your acts of respect up a notch, too...(gosh, I've gone from chiming to gonging, I think)...call the bank and find out what their rules are on joint accounts...call a lawyer and find out if you can file a restraining order for her taking money from your account...don't get in the way of her consequences, her choices, 'k?

May take going before a judge on the financial RO (maybe asking for an injunction?)...which says you are married, you reside in the same household, that it is a household account...and that you want in no way to fund her affair.

I believe you're brave enough to do the right thing...and let go the outcome. Take your steps...and step out of the way of her consequences.

This is part of Plan A to me...finding out, understanding and acting from the truth. Like exposure is sharing the truth. You focus on knowing you're own choices and reasons for them...and acknowledging your foggy WW believes differently. Listen and repeat with choice.

Truth is the fog breaker...because you say your truth as yours..."I know you are choosing to attack our marriage by going to see your AP and abandoning the vows you made to yourself. I'm choosing to stand for our marriage and the vows I made to myself." Acknowledges choice and reality...you bring it...you don't beat her over the head with it.

"I hear you believe I'm making your affair ugly, is that correct?"

The more you listen and repeat, in order to confirm or clarify, the more you hear how nuts the fog really is...you hand back her truth (her thoughts, beliefs, feelings, perceptions) as hers...and do not take it inside you. It doesn't belong there. It's hers.

Leaves more room for you to know your own.

The truth is actions and choices...focus there.

I had to separate our finances during WH's A. Turned out to be a blessing to our rebuilt marriage. For 15 years I believed that would be the end of our union...if we separated financially...was a big symbol to me. I changed my belief. Now we're looking at them being joined again...very scary...still, after three years of recovery, may be time. I'm not making it the symbol it was, though, before.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Ditto the advice on preserving your family's financial resources. (I mean, if she had a gambling addiction you'd try and stop waste, right....)

You might want to remove her as an authorized user on cards in your name, and/or make sure joint cards she carries have low limits. You may as well learn now how debts are handled in your state (individual, marital). You may have to password protect some of your accounts. Because you have a child, I'd make sure she has a card (even if its one in her name, just for safety's sake (i.e, can get gas/food in an emergency).

When she complains you tell her until she is committed to protect the family's resources, you had to take these steps. You don't think throwing away the family's dollars on OM is a good investment.

- WG.

P.S. In an earlier post you mentioned that OMW didn't want to save her M. Her feelings might change over time - you never know.

Tha last 24 hours have been very hard. I have had no contact with WW and child and really things seem so hopeless right now.

After exposing all I have heard from her is viciousness, cursing and tremendous anger. She even said that even if things don't work out with OM her and I will never be together again due to my exposing her.

I am really beginning to wonder whether I did the right thing. I guess I need to take another Zoloft and Xanax and see if my regret begins to fade.

My experience with exposure wasn't so effective - my in laws didn't do more than chide WW, and there was no OMW. However, I did get the anger and from all the experiences that I've read here, this is the exact result you want and should expect. She is unhappy because you are interfering with her affair. That's it. You haven't hurt her in any other way. The intensity of her anger just matches how well you've exposed.

Don't change tack.

If she was telling you how sorry she was and was willing to completely stop, it would actually be more worrisome. In that case, she would be almost certainly lying and trying to keep the A under ground. And she may still get to that. But anger just means you are effectively interferring with her A.

- WG

Your M doesn't have a chance with another man in it either does it? So what if she's pissed? She's pissed because you interferred with her adultery! Logically, what does she have to be pissed about? YOU didn't embarrass her, her behavior embarrassed her.

She'll get over it, it might take a bit, but she will. It does not guarantee recovery, or the end of the A, but it makes the A that much harder to maintain, she can no longer act like whatever is wrong with your M is YOUR fault, which she would do or has done. There's no more hiding for her now.

I know its hard, but you're doing the right things for the right reasons. Stand tall, speak the truth and conduct yourself with integrity and let the cards fall where they will.

Tyk, ManInNeed:

Tyk, you're absolutely right. I will not engage BeastAngle any longer. I've put them on ignore, and will put every reincarnated version of them on ignore without reading another post from them for the rest of my dying days.

My sincerest apologies to MIN. I was distracted and thus useless 2 you.

-ol' 2long

Well the holidays are here and my wife and child are 2 states away. Just briefly called my wife so I could talk to my daughter and she was very short with me and just hung the phone without saying goodbye.

Maybe it is worth noting that she might be one of the most stubborn people I know which is a big reason why she is convinced I was completely wrong with exposure. I really don't see her mind changing on this either considering her stubborness.

When she gets home tomorrow she is expecting me to be moved out so when she finds out that I'm not it is going to be fireworks all over again.

Thoughts and advice on how I should handle things tomorrow when she comes home upset? Thanks.

MIN:

There is only one thing I can recommend strongly, and that is:

Go to the main page here and click on "Counseling center".

Then, call and leave a message, right smack dab now, for an appointment at the earliest available oppor2nity.

Go 2 Jamesus' thread and read what happened when he made an appointment. It sounds like your si2ations may be similar, in that custody of your daughter may become a serious point of contention with your wife, if she ends up moving out because you won't. Jamesus didn't think he needed 2 coach with the Harleys, but I think it's fair 2 say that he's glad that he is.

Have a merry Christmas!

-ol' 2long

Just tell her your new mantra: you believe in the marraige and want to make it a relationship that makes BOTH of you happy. You have some ideas on how it is possible to make that happen but that it only includes the two of you, not OM. You look forward to the time when you can both commit to building a happy life together.

You will not be moving out because it is your home. That's all you have to say. Remain calm, don't be lured into a fight. Don't allow her to abuse you, when she starts in with the nastiness, just stick to your guns. When she blows up about the exposure, commiserate with her "Yes, I am sorry it was necessary as well, your behavior lately has been endangering our marriage and I will do anything I can to give us a chance."

When she insults and attacks you, just stay calm. "I don't believe this is productive, I am willing to discuss anything you wish in a calm, respectful manner." Leave the room if she persists. She will calm down and stop when she realizes that her behavior is not getting the desired response, which is for you to lose your cool, which justifies (in her mind) her decisions.

STAY CALM, its likely to get worse before it gets better, brace yourself for the storm and know that this is all textbook WS behavior and while it seems hopeless, your story is far from written.

Just spoke to my wife who is on the way back from out of state with our daughter. I asked her if I could spend some time with our daughter when they got back. She said that's fine, but she doesn't want me to speak to her (WW).

She is obviously still very upset about exposure. I can't stand this and feel so low right now. On Christmas Day my WW is angrier than she has ever been at me for simply trying to protect her from the OM's STD through exposure. She is convinced I was trying to hurt her and continues to say nasty cruel things to me.

Will she ever get over this?

Yes, she will get over it, and will be thankful one day that you stood up for your family. And they usually get over it very quickly. Keep having faith that you did the right thing.

You are in for a long, tough job here, and if you don't learn to detach from your WW, I don't think your M will survive. Here's why.

You should be angry about her affair. Even if it were knowable that OM didn't have an STD, exposure was the right thing to do; as a PP said, how long do you think your M will survive with OM involved?

The fact that she, is angry at you, is actually nuts. But she can't see it, and you don't see it either. You did nothing wrong by exposing, but only stood up for your M. She is actually conspiring to destroy your M, through lying and cheating.

You need to ignore WW's emotions for a time and not let them dictate your feelings. Find some other source for feeling good about yourself. Not an opposite sex friendship, but put effort in work and feel the results of a job done well. Hang out with other guys. Invest in a hobby. Go to church. Improve the house.

My WW reinvented history and made an incredible number of false claims: (1) I didn't support her when her father was dying; (2) I was controlling; (3) I was a workaholic; (4) I didn't praise her enough; (5) I was financially unreasonable; and so on... The smallest single mistake became a long term pattern (and in reality, they really were not).

She also raged at me for interferring with her A. She missed out on the joint activities w/OM that I knew about and she wouldn't risk doing them and being caught. She was furious that I told her family and our DD.

You have to ignore the nasty and cruel bits. If there is a seed of truth in them, learn from it and be a better person. But you are making calculated surgical decisions to remove the affair/cancer from your M. The expected outcomes for your W if the A goes on and the M ends are: (1) she will be unhappy; (2) she will be cheated on by OM; (3) she will be poorer; (4) your DD will suffer consequences as a child of divorce; (5) she may someday have a hard time accepting the person she became. You can try and save her from this. Exposure is just step 1.

Read the thread on reverse babble and practice saying 'I love yo u and I want our M to survive'.

- WG

MIN, I'm going through the same thing as you (although I'm a little farther along in the exposure game) and wanted to give you some support. I exposed to OMW mid November. As best I can tell, contact between WW and OM went on for a few more weeks after that. My WW's anger/depression is still on going, but seems to be subsiding some. My WW said all the same things...."doesn't matter if OM is out of the picture, we're over....It's never been about OM..." all that stuff that I'm sure you've heard. But guess what. She's still home, still talking about things in our future. She's still angry with me, but I'm beginning to see small signs that she's coming out of it, little by little.

You've been getting some good advise here. Listen to these people. I have and they've been dead on. My WW is following the script to a "T". I would suspect yours will too. You have a daughter together. That will be a huge tie to keep your WW around. And with her around, you can rebuild your marriage. But it will take time, lots of time. People here are always reminding me it's a marathon, not a sprint. Just keep reminding yourself that, through exposure, you are separating the addict (your WW) from her drug (OM). And we all know what drug addicts will do/say to keep getting their fix. Thinking this way has got me through some tough times.

Don't get me wrong, I still ride that rollercoaster, almost daily (as you can read in my posts), but you can get through this. Just stay calm. You're the only one fighting for your marriage right now and one day your WW will see that.

Thanks guys for all your support. Just found out that my WW is filing for divorce today and plans to move out this week. OM is still several hundred miles away so I have no idea what purpose moving out will serve other than to make it easier to converse on the phone.

WW is a little less upset today, but is still being very short. I am just going to try and steer clear of her. Should I continue Plan A in regards to telling her how much I love her or should I back off for awhile? Thanks.

Okay, I have to keep getting drug into conversations with my wife.

She is plotting on how to get custody of our daughter while once again ramping up the cruelty today. She is saying some of the most unbelievably cruel things and it is so difficult to hear.

I knew in my heart that exposure was going to create this and she is truly convinced that I exposed only to hurt her. I have never seen someone act so cruel and callous in my life.

That being said I know I did the right thing for the right reasons. Getting her to realize that someday might never come though.

I called the Harley's because I really am starting to feel like I desperately need Plan B. I am a mess.

Enforce your boundaries MIN, don't allow her to drag you into the mud. Also do not allow her to take your daughter out of the home. Her filing for divorce does not necessarily mean you will get divorced, get an attorney and drag your feet while still protecting yourself and your family assets.

Read Jamesus thread to realize what NOT to do in regards to allowing her to leave with your Daughter. Get an attorney ASAP and do whatever you can to prevent that from happening!

DO NOT FIGHT WITH HER! You also don't have to tell her you love her. Take a stand for yourself and your marriage, but do it with honesty and integrity instead of meanness or desperation. You are allowed to protect yourself, your daughter, and your marriage.

This is a critical time for you and you need to be very careful to avoid very serious consequences to your relationship with your daughter in the future. I think it is time for you to get legal advice in addition to advice from the Harleys about this.

Hey MIN,

Try not to get sucked into her negativity. I'm glad you called the Harley's. Reiterating Tyk's advice, definitely contact a lawyer, and try to keep your daughter with you. Don't fight with her at all. If you have an opportunity to record her threats, do so (save emails if they're written, tape conversations if possible). And reiterate to her that you don't want the divorce.

Thanks TYK....retained an attorney today and told him I want to proceed slowly and reactively without jeopardizing my position, assets and rights as a father.

My biggest issue right now is my wife keeps saying stuff to get me to react and I keep falling for it. Why in the world does she want me to react if she wants this marriage over? I would think that she would want this to be as painless as possible. Seems to me she is just trying to get revenge for exposing.

That is something you CAN control MIN, you just have to do it.

Find your inner zen MiN, don't take her bait, you're above fighting about whether or not she should be screwing some guy 600 miles away with an STD aren't you? I mean, some things in life just don't need to be explained, right?

You exposed her A because she was threating your marriage and your life. That's all. There's nothing to apologize for or fight about. Tell her that you will continue to do whatever you can to fight for your marriage and your family, and if she chooses to file for D, you will follow the advice of the best lawyer you can while still trying to save the marriage. That's it MiN, there's nothing to fight about. If she wants a divorce, you CAN'T STOP HER. If she wants to see STD guy, you can't stop that either. You can do things to make it difficult, and you should, but at the end of the day, she has decisions to make about how she lives her life, same as you.

Live your life with honest and integrity, showing her how to do the same (SHOWING HER, NOT TELLING HER!).

Tyk,

How do I add 'stars' to this response? It gets five...

MIN---good luck. And stop reacting---just start acting. Show her you want the marriage. Don't fall for the WS bait.

There ya go.

Scroll to the very bottom of any given post and select the drop-down list labeled "Rate This Topic" (to the left).

Jo

Thanks guys. Working on my inner zen now.

TYK...the simple brilliance of the 2nd paragraph of your post really hit home and I really would like to plaigarize that word for word in the next conversation with my WW if you don't mind <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I know what I need to do and will do it.

Wow. You had a whopper of a day. Sounds like you made a lot of good decisions.

You asked "Why in the world does she want me to react if she wants this marriage over?" That's a good question to ponder. I would imagine she really doesn't know what she wants, and she is unhappy. You are just the target.

- WG

Stay strong today MiN! Don't take the bait!

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm

zen brotha, zen!

Thanks guys...today will be a much better day I'm sure.

Played with my daughter all last night while my wife was just stewing around the house. I was in the kitchen while she was holding our daughter and heard her start balling. I came out and instead of bailing her out by asking what's wrong or everything will be alright, I just let her cry without saying a word. I'm pretty sure she was reflecting on our daughter and our family because she was holding her at the time just staring at her. I left the room after about 5 minutes without saying a word figuring if she wanted to talk about something she would be the one to initiate.

I'm starting to feel like I need to let her hit rock bottom before she will start trying to get some help or want to do the right thing. Every time I pull back and detach she ALWAYS starts moving toward me and I get the feeling she is making sure I am still there as her fallback position. Needless to say until last night I have fallen for it every time.

Should I continue these types of actions of detachment and just leave her alone with her guilt and confusion for awhile?

MIN,

I agree that you shouldn't bail her out when the reality of her actions hits her in the face. I would tell her "It doesn't have to be like this" or something to that effect. I believe waywards need to believe that there is a way back to family, that they will be accepted.

That's good MiN, sounds like the anger at exposure is passing. I think being a bit distant is good, but, remember, your are still in Plan A. You want to be meeting her needs, I would just meet them in ways that aren't overly fawning and weak. Take care of the house and your daughter, one of the best things you might do is to get away WITH your daughter. Take her to the store, stay gone quite a while. Allow your WW the time to really see what its like to be alone.

If she wants to TALK, not fight, then be available. Don't get sucked into the round-and-round discussions, hold firm to the idea that you have a plan on how to recover, and there are certain things she needs to be willing to do in order to bring that about.

My WW never filed for divorce, but she did say one day as she was leaving for a weekend with OM, "if you keep pushing me on this I'll go see an attorney". I calmly told her that if she wanted to see an attorney that was her choice but I was sure there wasn't a judge in the state that would look too kindly on her D petition as she was the one committing adultery. I then said I won't talk about D with you, but I will talk to you about saving our marriage, and with that she left.

To me this was just another attempt by her to get me to back down so she could continue her rosy home life while scr***** the OM. And for a few more weeks after that day she still thought so, but then I exposed and her anger was the same as you are experiencing. But you know what? She's still home, the A seems to be over and she seems to be coming out of the fog little by little.

As people here remind me over and over, look at her actions, not her words. Her actions with your daughter seem to me to be one of those actions that are good for you. Just keep doing what you're doing. NO LB's. When she is spewing venom, just walk away or react calmly. That will really throw her off. It's like right now she is trying to bait you into a fight so she can justify her A. If you don't take the bait it will really mess up her image of both you and the reasons for the A.

One other thing that seems to have helped in my situation. I began doing things I wanted to do, with or without her. I would ask if she wanted to join me in doing whatever, but if she said no, I went anyway. I think her sitting home while I was out played some part in where I think we are going now. I know a couple of times I did that WW and OM had a LBing kind of conversation (I saw their TM's).

I agree with TYK. Don't get too much into the I love you stuff, but continue to interject that you still believe in the M and want to make it work, etc.

MIN,
I am in your shoes almost to the day. My wife says she has committed to NC as of 12/21/07. I had plan Aing since 8/15/07. I reached my breaking point 12/19/07. I decided I could not go home and face her again with the A being thrown in my face by her on 12/19. I went to my parents 12/20/07. On 12/21 I came home with the intentions of picking up some clothes and my wife told me she had ended it with the OM because he was wavering about being committed to her (our) 3 kids.

That morning my wife said she was sorry for acting so stupid, that she knows she is not supposed to be with OM and she wanted to know if I would accept her back. That day we changed her cell phone #, blocked his emails, and got her on antidepressants and anxiety meds.

My point is simply MBers works. Act on your beliefs and not on your feelings. My wife said all kinds of the same nasty things, but I focused on her actions. She was still in house, still talking to me. Avoid relationship talk, kill her with kindness, not "out of your way" smothering but just do normal daily stuff in very kind considerate ways for her. One day I served my wife dinner in front of tv while she was being very ****** and she asked why I was acting so nice to her. Because thats how I want to treat her for the rest of our lives together. HA. Smile and walk away whistling happy go lucky. Do not react to her, just act in your beliefs. She was a good wife/person and can be again. But it will take time, keep running the marathon.

BigPic....I really wish I was to the point that you are in right now. Other than moving out, my WW is still moving forward with filing.

Get this....she just emailed me and told me that her attorney (who is her ex-husband) is dragging his feet on the filing. This is primarily because he is doing it for free and is putting her off. She then asks me if my attorney can draw everything up for us.

I emailed her back and told her that I'm not the one that wants divorce, she is and I'm not interested in paying $175 an hour for something that I don't want to begin with. I told her anything regarding ending our marriage is going to be handled by my attorney (in a review and react mode) and anything regarding working on our marriage her and I can discuss.

I have made it clear where I stand numerous times, yet she still doesn't get it. She just seems to think I am going to throw my hands in the air and accomodate her in regards to ending our marriage and on top of that pickup the bill for it.

I would love to see someone compile a thread or book on "Foglike" statements and how little sense they make. I am in absolute amazement at how someone so intelligent can repeatedly say and believe things that make no sense.

ManInNeed, when will the test results come out?

SS....I had a followup appointment for tomorrow, but they called me and wanted to reschedule the appointment for next week. I will keep everyone updated.

Well today is the day. My WW is flying 600 miles to spend the weekend with OM. It is so tough letting go, but there is really nothing else I can do. Makes no sense at all. He has proven he is a liar, a multiple cheater who has tested positive for STD, yet she is still going to leave her family to spend the weekend with OM.

It is so frustrating to sit here and do nothing and is like a dagger in my heart knowing she is going to be sleeping in his bed the next 2 nights.

MIN:

"Frustrating" I don't think adequately describes it. Keep it calm...

oh man

I'm sorry MiN.

I wish WS's could experience this kind of pain for just one day. My guess, most of them would immediately quit their affairs.

She knows what she is doing, yet doesn't care. I am started to get angry and very bitter.

I can imagine.

What do you want to happen?

What do you want to do?

I would like to fly out there myself and ruin there weekend, but obviously that is a huge LB. Sometimes I just wish I could use Plan D and try and get over this. My daughter is the only thing that keeps me within Plan A.

I didn't often have to deal with foreknowledge of a assignation between my WW and her OM. But the times I did, really messed with my brain. Its a pain like no other.

I decided then, and I still believe, that for me to interfere directly with such incidents isn't prudent. I wanted WW to choose our M of her own will. And denying her free will to choose the A, is disrespectful. She has the right to make even bad decisions, and I don't want to take that away.

Well, I know how you feel.

Since your wife is apparently on the express train to D, you might want to prepare yourself for legal action. Having documentation of her trip, its cost, the fact that she left (or worse took) DD behind to visit OM, and eyewitnesses or video footage could come in handy if you need to substantiate adultery or argue for custody. Its the kind of stuff you can tuck away and hope its not ever needed.

How old is your DD?

- WG

Thanks WG...my DD is 18 months old which is a blessing because she has no idea what is happening around her.

Is screwing up their romantic weekend denying her of free will? I know that it isn't the best thing to do and I won't, but thinking that I might risk being disrespectful seems very ironic considering the premeditation of her actions this weekend and her actions to date.

I think interfering in her actions is denying her the choice, which I think is disrespectful. To the extent you can save someone from trouble, or point out the consequences of their bad decisions -- that's well worth doing. Your exposure was exactly that.

I think most here would agree that you shouldn't enable her A. So if you could have prevented your, or joint, credit cards from being used to fund the trip, that would seem legitimate to me.

I would have no qualms about your telling OMW about the trip. Maybe she can have some effect locally.

To me, choosing for someone else is denying part of their personhood. Almost like treating them as a pet; forcing your will on them. I had some controlling tendencies, so I am perhaps more sensitive about the issue in hindsight.

- WG

I agree with you WG and this is just my emotions talking to some extent. However, I think respect is a 2 way street and you have to give to get. JMO

Plan D has some serious shortcomings. Here's a few I'm going through: (1) financial devastation; (2) none of my ENs are being met by WW, nor will be again; (3) the pain of betrayal doesn't just go away; (4) my child suffers; and, (5) the legal process is just a pain in the xxx.

That said, it can put a limit on the amount of abuse you can receive from someone. And I think it is good for a WS to experience consequences for their actions - letting them enjoy the M and the A forever doesn't make them better people. But Harley recommends Plan B to achieve the same goals (limiting your pain, letting them face consequences) and put off D.

I think it is Frank Pittman who wrote: "When it comes to a choice of suicide or homicide, I generally recommend divorce." [The context points out a number of downsides to D]

- WG

Oh we are in agreement. She is being maximally disrespectful to you.

IMHO, this emotional state is the sign that your plan A is coming to an end. Can't remember your length of plan A but I would be getting ready to move to next step.

My WW TM'd me several times over the weekend just checking in to see how things were going as well as checking on our child. When I responded it took her quite a while to respond back. I am guessing she had to TM me back after she was out of sight from OM which in a strange way was somewhat gratifying and ironic with the tables being turned.

My question is since she had no pressing issues she was TM'ing me about why in the world is she contacting me during her weekend out of town with the OM? Is this indicative of cake eating behavior?

I would guess that she is just checking after the child, and forming the request politely. Honestly, how can she be checking to see if you are okay while she is with OM -- right now, she doesn't care how you are.

If she is really asking about you, then it may be an exploratory form of cake eating -- trying to find out if she can have you and her lover both.

I might suggest not returning any TMs or phone calls while she is away. This gives her the consequences of not knowing how your child is (she would if she was at home) and not gaining any reassurance about the martial future (while she is with OM). Well, perhaps this is petty, but at the least I'd not return any messages promptly, you were too busy taking child to church, the park, visiting friends, etc..., and not just sitting at home thinking about her.

- WG

How's it goin MiN?

TYK...thanks for asking. This weekend was really tough. As I mentioned before she TM'd several times over the weekend. When she got back in town we spent some good quality family time together watching a few movies and doing stuff around the house keeping things very light.

This morning she emails and tells me she is going to meet with her attorney to sign a few things to move forward with the filing of the divorce. This really triggered me and I emailed her and said "Why are we getting divorced, again?". She then called me and we had an hour long conversation about everything I had done to bring us to this situation. She has not taken any responsibility for this situation at all and continues to be in the fog as much as ever.

The thing that really bothered me was she told me that I have burned the bridge with both of her parents by exposing. Regardless of the reasons I told both of them, neither one of them believe me and only think I told them to hurt her in their eyes.

I am really starting to wonder if I should just go ahead and get the divorce over with as soon as possible so I can get over her. She seems to have every intention of moving forward with the divorce and there is nothing I can say or do to stop her.

Should I try and slow down the divorce proceedings? Should I try and talk her into a legal separation? Should I continue with Plan A? Should I go think about going into Plan B?

****** edit ******

If you don't want a divorce, then yes---slow it down. Yes as with regards to Plan A. Yes about getting ready to go into Plan B.

Don't worry about the fog babble. It's straight out of the script.

They believe everything I told them, but they also believe that the only reason I told them was to hurt her, not to help her. Crazy I know, but that is what my WW is telling me.

Divorce is not my arena at all MiN, so take all this for what its worth.

What is she seeking in the divorce? If she's out for blood, definitely drag things out.

If she's willing to give up alot to get things done quickly, things like primary custody, the home, assets, etc, then I think you would be foolish to not protect yourself and take her up on that, at least initially.

Everything is agreed upon for the divorce and the only reason I am holding off is because I want to work on us being a family again. Unfortunately, she is not and wants to proceed forward.

I keep looking at a divorce as the end, but maybe I need to look at it as something I need for closure because her mind seems to be made up. She told me today that she can't ever see her feelings for me changing and is no longer willing to try and work on our marriage.

She also said that when we were spending time together yesterday she went in the other room and cried because she knows all she has to do is say the word and we can work on being a family again. Yet she refuses to say the word or lift a finger. Unbelievable to me that she can break down crying about it, yet not want to put in an ounce of effort to try and fix things.

MIN: You're talking to an addict. Not your wife. These are the exact things addicts say. The behaviors she's exhibiting are the ones addicts exhibit. So don't take it personally, and don't take it as an indicator of whether or not you can be successful in saving the marriage. Stick with the program.

If anything, the fact that she is upset about the thought of divorce says that she recognizes it isn't the right action to take. In a way, that's her lifting a finger, isn't it? Maybe?

Alot of what she says is straight from the WS handbook, its what they all do and say to justify thier actions in thier mind. The only reason I asked about the divorce is that if the agreement were greatly in your favor it could be benefitial for you to take her up on it now while she's acting desperate to get out of the M.

When were the divorce terms discussed? How it it all already decided?

Basically we had previously decided to split physical and legal custoday as well as all of our assets and liabilities 50/50. We had discussed this several months ago when talking about a legal separation in lieu of a divorce.

I keep looking at divorce as such a final thing leaving no hope for a possible reconciliation. Are there any stories of reconciliation after divorce that are out there to anyone's knowledge?

Sure, but it's not the recommended method! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you don't want to be divorced: Yes.

If you think divorce will make you happier, read up on it. Here's a couple of links:

SmartMarriages site

MarriageMissions page

- WG

MIN,
Did you see Dr Harleys post recently about affair partners trying to make their new relationship work? Per his post 95% of affairs do not last. You should continue to act with that fact in mind. The A will end! And if you want, you will be there for her when it does.

Has she read any statistics or reality about divorce? Tell her you would rather spend a few hundred dollars now on last ditch counseling efforts prior to D in hopes of not spending $1000's on divorce attorneys. Then find a anti-D counselor quick. Say you changed your mind about the D agreements. You are "rethinking" custody since she is the one leaving. Drag.

Talk to her parents more. Get them as allies.

Ask her if this is really going to happen then could she at least consider a few things last things. My wife gave me a promise early on that she would read anything I gave her. Arm yourself with stats and stories. In states where the waiting period is long for divorce to be final, many couples end up reconciling in the meantime. Long term surveys of couples who were very unhappy show 5 years later that they were now fairly happy. Thats the part in the vows about better or worse. Right now its worse but it will get better.

Did I post my analogy to you before about feelings? I don't know if any of this will help but here are some things that helped me.

1) What would she do if she only had 6 months left to live?


2) Analogy:
Feelings and emotions are like riding in a dinghy in a stormy ocean. Storms and feelings come and go, waves toss you about in all different directions. It is easy to sink by acting on feelings because you never have direction to find harbor or land. But faith, morals, values, and vows are the lighthouse. Guided by the lighthouse you will find what you need.

Feelings come and go. Just as she has fallen out of love with you she CAN fall out of love with OM. Then you will have a chance to fall in love with each other again if she can see to give your marriage that opportunity. But of course you cannot fall in love again if she is still desiring OM. She is letting her feelings control her.

3) Have you been praying?

4) anti depressants. My wife committed to NC many times and broke them all. I still don't have that. But on Friday 12/21 she started on Zoloft. Yesterday she said I have become an amazing man (through plan A), that she knows she wants to be with me to dance at our children's weddings and see our grandchildren born. She attributes a big mood shift to the ADs.

5) I sent email to OM... "Please know I will do whatever it takes to keep my family and marriage together." It lets him know that you have a way bigger committment to this than he does. Maybe it will set him thinking about greener pastures with less baggage.

You are correct that divorce is not the termination of your relationship given kids involved, just a "reframing" of your interactions.

You might want to think about plan B more just to protect yourself right now. People who divorce do get remarried. Divorce does not mean death. There will be a chance after the A ends even though a D might have happened.

I will say a prayer for you. They worked for me.

Very sad day today....I have finally come to the realization that I can no longer emotionally deal with the pain and cruelty being willfully and intentionally inflicted. I know a lot of what she may be saying is fog, but she is continuing to move forward towards divorce using her ex-husband as the attorney. He is doing it for free and propositioning her every step of the way for SF like the true scumbag ambulance chasing attorney he is.

I told her today that I am no longer going to wait for him to fit her divorce filing into his 20 hour work week, simply waiting for her to drop the axe on me while I am begging her for mercy for the sake of our family.

I told her I hired an attorney yesterday, met with him today and will have her served tomorrow since that is what she wants. We have agreed to split everything 50/50 including joint physical and joint legal custody of our child which I am more than okay with. I don't want this to be ugly as she is still the mother of our child and simply want to get this over with as soon as possible.

I called her from the attorney's office to get some information from her and she was shocked that I was being so proactive.

These actions may fly in the face of MB principles, but I can no longer function at my job and this ongoing cruelty is effecting my ability to be a father to my child. Holding out hope and continuing Plan A while tolerating her vicious behavior is no longer something I can deal with one more day. I told her that I want to get this done in the next 45 days if possible, but that depends on how soon we can get a court date.

I've gotta tell you that for me personally, this action I have taken is very sad as I never thought I would be the one to end our marriage. I do however feel like I have temporarily gained a small amount of control of my life again, at least for today.

I continue to pray about the future of our family and am trying so hard to put this in God's hands, but it is so hard to just let go and let God.

I love my wife and my daughter more than life itself and would still lay down my life for either one of them. Letting her go and try and be happy (even if that is with someone who has ruined his own family and ours) is so hard, but I have to let her go and just concentrate on my daughter and myself.

Should I go into a Plan B at this point or simply continue Plan A? We do plan on separating very soon and just need to work out a temporary agreement until the divorce is finalized. Thoughts, prayers and feedback are greatly appreciated.

What do you want to do MiN?

If you still want to save the M, I guess given the divorce filing etc. I would suggest a well crafted Plan B letter and going dark through the D. process.

Perhaps this will be what it takes to wake her up to the reality of her decisions. I'm sure others that have been here longer and seen more will be able to help you more than I.

Did you ever get the STD tests back?

I will start working on a Plan B letter and schedule an appointment with the Harleys regarding the details of Plan B.

On a better note, got the tests back yesterday and they were all negative.

The other option would be to back off the D proceedings entirely for now and continue plan A, setting up a better Plan B scenario.

I worry that you are REACTING and not ACTING in this D filing.

Well at least one silver cloud is that since you are filing you'll be the petitioner. If you have a change of heart closer to the final date, you can always nonsuit the divorce and she'll have to start over. That's what I did. I was 2-3 days away from the final decree being entered when I dropped the suit. He never refiled. We are happily recovered.

BigPicture...thanks for taking the time to give your feedback.

I have been praying throughout every day. WW absolutely will not lift a finger, read a thing or even talk about reconciliation at this point.

She has said that she knows she can not be with OM permanently and knows she is making a decision to give up half of her daughter's life as well as growing old alone. She also said that by doing so she won't have to worry about anyone hurting her anymore (referring to me not meeting her EN's).

How can you reason with this kind of thinking? This thing just needs to run it's course and I have decided to try and trust that God will take care of this.

I did not file for divorce to shake her back into reality, just did it because I had to in order to be able to function again.

That being said I am still willing to talk reconciliation before, during and after the divorce if she agreed to NC with OM. I guess I will have to make that clear in my Plan B letter.

PrincessMeggy....great idea....never thought about that. I will keep that in my hip pocket and use it as needed.

I have read that the one who files has more control over the D process than the one who is served. MiN can now instruct his lawyer to slow-play the process if he wants, giving more time for exposure and plan B to work.

MiN, I'd really advise you to push for you to be the one who stays in the house and retains primary physical and legal custody of your child. This is not the time to be nice. Let your lawyer do the dirty work.

Hope you finished getting your finances isolated and safeguarded, and that your lawyer knows your WW drained the bank account. I also hope your lawyer can come up with a way to remove WW from the marital home.

The only drawback is if she cross-files (which is pretty rare). In that case, all bets are off and the D moves forward. The only reason someone would x-file is if they were trying to make themself petitioner on a related issue. Like I said, that's pretty rare in a standard D case.

Just talked to my attorney and he liked PrincessMeg's idea as a backup plan. Since we have agreed to everything she will not be filing a cross petition which will give me the ability to stop this before it becomes final and buy some more time as needed.

I know everyone here might disagree, but I think the biggest priority for me right now is to work on a temporary separation agreement which will buy me more time emotionally to continue with a Plan A while separated. This also might give her the freedom and reality she needs to decide if this is what she really wants. Thoughts anyone?

True because the FILER is the one bringing the suit and it's up to him/her to prosecute it (see it through). The Respondent/Defendant (person who is sued) defends him/herself throughout the suit and attempts to get whatever they want.

One thing though is that some courts have fast-track dockets and they'll move a case through at the speed of light. Of course, there are always ways to delay but you really have to be on top of that.

Excellent plan. You filing and getting temporary orders in place will let you feel a little more in control over things and will SHOW her that you're serious and fully able to protect your rights... if not your heart... right now.

Once you have temporary orders in place, any further discussions re divorce can be referred to your attorney. You get to say the magic words, "I don't do divorce so you'll need to talk about things like that with my attorney. How was your day sweetie?"

Filing first is definetely advantageous.

So much so that if I were you I would have hesitated allowing her to know it's coming. Her exhusband attorney could file and serve you first thus taking the superior position for themselves.

That being said:

Since you are going for 50% be sure to ask for 50% plus at least one day. IRS deductions, unless you agree otherwise with specific language and requiring specific forms, use a tie breaker formula and will go to the parent with the most overnights. Even if you do decide on 50-50 in the end, you'll forever have to document that you got 50 + one day to insure you get those deductions. It's likely you are just dividing them up in the agreement but you don't have to if you can insure getting it every year by asking for a couple more days than 50% with your kids every year.

One downside of filing first...you may request 50-50 to be nice and she responds, balls to the walls, with a full custody demand with you getting every other weekend and a midweek visitation. You'll have to amend your complaint for the same or negotiate towards her.

Finally...you really should make her move out and YOU stay. It's the right thing to happen when SHE's the one that cheated and quitting on the marriage. You shouldn't have to endure further abuse of some OM coming into your own home once you've left.

Sorry if I'm missing something as I haven't read from the beginning. If you remember MyWifeIlove's story...he separated from his wife, went to Plan B to regroup and then, with Jennifer Chalmers counsel went back into Plan A. His wife was living with OM and he saved/got her out of that situation and saved his family. With God, all things are possible.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

How did it go today???


Also...I thought about the fact she's going to have her ex-husband represent her in the divorce case.

Is he a divorce attorney????

If not, what is his speciality???


FREE lawyers generally suck. Without being compensated that file will generally be ignored to the nth degree.

You don't have to lay down just because she's got a free lawyer. Consider this...the harder and longer you fight the more likely her xh will become frustrated and mess up. He wants a quick and easy free matter...not something that drags on and on and on. Plus...you won't get stuck with having to pay her legal fees...just try to find a way to document that he's representing her for nothing up front so they don't attempt to stick you with a bill just for the fun of it.

Mr. Wondering

Then again...my opinion's above were free.

So what's that tell ya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. W

As luck would have it, her ex-husband got the thing filed late yesterday so my plans for filing were out. He doesn't specialize in divorce, but does do it about 25% of the time.

My attorney completely agreed in regards to free representation, but if we can get this done with agreeable terms that are fair I would just assume get it over with if her mind is set on it. If she decides we can reconcile after the divorce once the affair is over than I am open to that under the right conditions.

MIN:

There was a guy here a few years back, Jack55, who's W went off and had an A and left him wanting 2 DV quickly 2 alleviate the pain.

He was DV'd less than 90 days from d-day. Something like 2 or 3 months later, he was engaged 2 someone else when his W "woke up" and wanted 2 come home.

It's an interesting read, mostly for the perspective. I don't necessarily think he did what was best. But last I heard, he seemed 2 be happy in his new R.

-ol' 2long

Thanks 2Long...I am trying to make the right decisions, but I can't continue to sit here and hope and she just keeps messing with my emotions. Every time she feels me pulling away she reels me back in and when I do she just spits me back out again.

I have decided to take control of this situation by moving forward with a divorce and leaving the future of our family in the hands of God. I still continue to Plan A and will even after we separate, but I am no longer going to give her control of my emotions. Feel free to set me straight if I am off track in any way.

Plan B first. You're reacting---not acting. And 888-639-1639.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How will D keep her from "controlling your emotions" MiN? A D is a legal proceeding, it has nothing to do with your emotions.

Understood and appreciate the straight forward feedback. She filed before I did yesterday as it turns out and I was just tired of waiting for the axe to drop and continue being victimized.

Believe it or not I did have at least some temporary satisfaction yesterday by trying to get this done. I understand that D is just a legal proceeding, but just sitting here in Plan A while continually getting my teeth kicked in daily makes you feel helpless and powerless.

Maybe this is just a guy thing in regards to having some kind of control, but the alternative is a living ******.

No. The alternative is ... Plan B.

Control. No contact from WS, much less emotional trauma. Plan B is about you regaining control, and saving your love from an abusive situation.

The only thing I think you should consider is, perhaps, dragging the divorce out significantly while you go to Plan B.

Since she has filed...NOW...may be as good a time as any to actually go into a modified Plan B. I say modified only because you are potentially in a custody dispute and the courts (and their representatives, like GAL's and parent evaluators) don't like strict Plan B's. They encourage parents to get along "for the good of the children" with complete disregard to the abuse the WS has put the BS through. To be sure, MB doesn't advocate a modified Plan B. It's a full Plan B or it's not Plan B. But, as an attorney (and your attorney will likely agree) a Modified Plan B is OK and won't jeopardize you case.

A modified Plan B is the same as a full one except you don't tell your WS that there actually is an intermediary intercepting your emails. You limit the forms of communications between you and her to a notebook, email. Cell phone always goes to voice mail when she calls and should only be used for ACTUAL emergencies. Text messages are also OK for last minute information but you don't speak to her unless it's truly an emergency. You Plan B letter just varies regarding the intermediary.

Another reason to NOT hurry the case along is you want to be sure to get a shot at deposing your wife and OM. Just as your wife is no doubt rewriting your history today...5 or 10 years from now the circumstances of your divorce, especially in front of the children when you aren't around, will also significant change. I strongly suggest you use depositions to obtain, verify, and document the break up of your marriage as well as to dig into OM's life (since this man??? MAY end up around your children for years to come.

Only after such depositions do you even consider settling.

Mr. Wondering

You will be in my prayers MiN.

My father in-law spoke with my WW yesterday and was telling her how difficult it is to raise a child in separate homes and said that neither one of us could be both parents to our daughter. After speaking with him about 30 minutes my WW spoke to me and was crying saying she didn't believe she could be happy regardless what decision she made in regards to myself, OM or our marriage.

Instead of trying to comfort her like I have done in the past, I just politely changed the subject, detached and tried to get off the phone. It seems that in the past everytime I have tried to be there for her it just gives her more comfort that she is not going to lose me and I just get kicked in the teeth again. I decided that I am going to let her figure this out on her own and that maybe when she hits rock bottom she will be able to make some decisions to get some help and counseling.

She has mentioned numerous times that she would like to get some individual counseling for things that are bothering her, but she never seems to take the proactive steps necessary to get some help.

Should I continue to try and comfort her when she is upset and be there for her or just let her figure this out for herself? Thanks for any feedback and opinions.

You answered your own question. In fact, Mr. W gave you a wonderful suggestion about going into a modified Plan B since she has already filed for D. By going Plan B, she won't be able to pick up the phone and cry to you when she's feeling bad (cake eating). PLUS, you'll protect the love that you still have for her.

MIN,

I think you are "playing" this step perfectly. Realize the A is all about her and right now any chance of recovery is all about her as well. You are probably realizing you will be fine. I found out that if my WW really wanted OM she could have the idiot. He couldn't even spell spouse correctly. I knew she would come to her senses but that it might be well after I moved on. I was ready for that. It seems you are too.

Don't give up hope, just don't let her see how much you care quite so much. Let her be alone. She will be doing heavy thinking. Hopefully very alone. WWs have a lot of pride to swallow. They chose some very bad things and its very difficult to admit. Don't do any LBing, but don't strive to meet ENs either. Go live your life, let her suffer. As I said in previous posts under my Plan A, either way she chooses, fence sitting and cake eating come with a high price that she will be paying. I have faith that she will ultimately end up paying it back to you in gratitude. Prayers with you.

Thanks BigPicture....I am going to call the Harleys and have them help me with a modified Plan B since we are going to separate very soon. I will continue to distance and detach in the meantime.

I am definitely not giving up hope, but I can no longer continue getting emotionally abused because I feel myself getting more and more bitter every time she reels me back in only to kick me to the curb again.

Throughout the entire time I have known her (prior to the affair) she has always been so level headed and made good decisions. Now, every decision she seems to make uses no logic, common sense and is absolutely selfish with no consideration for our daughter or myself. I know she is in a fog, but does anyone think she is experiencing any regret or wondering if she is doing the right thing? Thanks.

Okay, yesterday something really strange happened. My WW and I were discussing details of our separation and day care for our daughter came up. She wanted to look at moving her to a day care closer to her job and this turned into a little bit of an argument because I am very happy with the day care she is currently in.

Anyway, after this turning into a little bit of an argument we had a chance to cool down. We were then giving our daughter a bath and my WW turns to me and asks me what is wrong. I just told her I can't believe this is happening to our family. Then for the first time, she actually showed remorse and sorrow and she started crying. She told me how sorry she was and that she wishes she had never contacted OM and that this would have never happened. She tells me that she is so confused and scared. She doesn't want to give up OM because he meets some of her EN's that I didn't meet and she also doesn't want to give up our family. I then told her that I had been willing to meet her EN's and knew how now, but that she wouldn't let me. She said she is afraid of her and I falling back into the same rut as we were prior to the affair.

She then told me that after this thing ends with her and OM she wants to go to counseling and work on our marriage. I didn't really know how to respond to that with out LB'ing, but I told her I didn't know if I could just sit around and wait for her although I desperately want our marriage to work and be a family again. She then told me she understood and wouldn't be mad if I dated. I didn't know what to say to that. Seems to be that me dating would make her feel better than it would make me.

I really want to be there for her in her time of confusion and hurt, but I really don't know what to do at this point if she isn't willing to work on our marriage and give up the OM. After an emotional discussion we just lightly ended the conversation and started playing with our daughter.

We are still planning on separating, but I don't know if she still wants to proceed with a divorce.

Any advice, feedback or next recommended course of action would be greatly appreciated. I have no idea how to proceed next.

Hi MIN:

All this stuff is textbook behavior for a wayward spouse. The addictive nature of the affair---one minute she's disrespecting everything, then next minute she's back, then she's telling you that it's OK if you date too.

My feedback to you is to tell her that you're more than willing to learn how to meet her needs. That you're working with an expert in this area (Steve Harley). And that he'd like to talk to you to gather more feedback...

She needs to be educated to what she's doing. This is absolutely not your job---you won't be able to do it effectively (she won't listen), and it'll hurt your balance in her lovebank. That's why I'd like to see you get Steve involved---to let her have a session or two with him (for 'feedback').

You're doing a good job with being very consistent with her: you want to work on the marriage. Your willing to do what it takes to make the marriage a great place for her (meet her needs). You're not interested in dating, separation, or divorce. You feel it'll be best for your family to work on this marriage. Continue to be very consistent with this message---when she comes out of the fog, she'll remember it.

Damn, I lost a post! I agree with K. The only other thing I would maybe suggest is that you find Harley's material about A's being addictive behavior and see if she will read that. I do see the merit in K's statement that relationship counseling should not be coming from you, but if she won't agree to talk to SH then it needs to come from somewhere. Even if it is percieved as a LB it might be worth it. Don't push it on her, just provide it to her is my thought.

We just finished the book "Infidelity: A Survival Guide" by Don-David Lusterman and it in many ways mirrors MB principals but reaches more into the WS mindset in some ways. You might buy it and "forget" it at the house along with some of the affairs=addiction material? I just think it would be good for her to realize that what she is doing/feeling is not unique?

Its good that she's conflicted MiN!

MIN,

Hello! McFly! Do not plan B unless you absolutely cannot cope. Do not let the D filing fool you. She just doesn't know what else to do right now. She cannot see a way out of this mess so this is her solution. Because she did it before and she knows the attorney (idiot) and he is free and blah blah blah. More D will only get her more D's. Not happy marriages. You have better ideas. MBers principals.

She is doing everything expected. Torn, conflicted, sorrow, hurt, anger, etc. A flood of emotions. She hates herself, hates you, hates OM. Then loves you, loves OM, see saw, yo yo, rubberbands. Have you seen my post on plan A in the Plan A board? Act on your principals. You keep saying your emotions are getting to be too much so start acting on your goals and plans. Like you are doing, detached loving. I know its tough, been there with A being thrown in my face. Hang in there. She is stuck thinking there is no solution that will make her happy. My WW said the EXACT same thing couple months back. Plan A changed her mind. Bigtime. She will come around. Your last incident over the daycare gives ME hope for you!


MIN I am a salesman. Nobody buys anthing because I TELL them to. They buy for their own reasons. You cannot convince her of anything. You can however ASK her! E.G. Salesguy: You should buy this car. Buyer: I don't like the color. thats a deadend. VERSUS Why would you like to buy this car?????? I like the ______. That produces results. Now I know what he likes even if its not that car he purchases.

One thing I read in Hope4Us thread that Harley asked him to ask his WW was this... If there was a way for us to become very happy with each other in our marriage would you consider looking at that? See!? He is ASKING.

YOU: "WW if there was a way that I could demonstrate how I have learned to meet your EN's would you consider a trial like that for 3 months?"

Then get her to read some stuff like SAA or HSHN or the EN questions. When my WW picked up SAA she said she identified immediately with the WW letters in the first 5 pages. Those letters let her see that becoming happy in her marriage was possible, even after this disaster and extreme negative thoughts, and that her feelings were not unusual or different.

Has she seen the EN questionnaire? Maybe that will help her identify what you need to work on. Maybe she doesn't know herself what you need to work on either.

If she answers anything like that then introduce a MB piece.

Don't talk about your changes, just demonstrate.

MIN, could you add a signature line to your posts so we can quickly recall time frames and other important details, etc.

Update:

My WW and I have physically separated. However 2 days ago, she TM'd me and called my cell phone in the middle of the night and left a message for me to call her. I called her back and she started telling me how she thinks she made a mistake and wishes she never would have contacted the OM in the first place. She then proceeds to tell me what precipitated all of these thoughts.

Apparently the OM got a job in the city that his BS and DD moved to as a result of the divorce and he was going to move there which happened 3 days ago. My WW tried to contact him several times by TM and phone and he had turned his phone off for the entire night. This was an immediate red flag to my WW since he pulled the same stunt with his BS. After trying to get a hold of him for several hours she left him messages telling him that she doesn't want to continue the relationship and is going to block his emails and phone #'s. She was obviously upset and hurt which is when she decided to call me in the middle of the night.

The next day he tried to contact her and make up some story about why his phone was turned off, but she didn't buy it. For the last couple of days he has been relentless trying to get ahold of her, has tried everything from begging to name calling which has been huge LB'ers for my WW. She said she has never seen this side of him before.

Last night he continued to contact her by TM'ing her repeatedly and she called me again late last night wanting me to come over and be with her because she was having a really hard time not contacting him or calling him. I told her that I just couldn't do it because I'm just not emotionally stable enough. I also said that her feelings for him and lack of feelings for me wouldn't be a solution in her getting over him and even if I came over that night the next nights would be no different. She understood and admitted that the only reason she wanted me to come over was for that reason and also admitted she would be using me. I appreciated her honesty, but I just couldn't do it.

Now I find myself desperately wanting to be there for her and help her permanently end her A with the OM, but I don't feel that I am part of the solution. I really need some advice on a plan of action considering the fact that we are now separated because I really believe that she isn't going to be strong enough to stand up to his continued assault on her emotions and she is going to go back to him.

Your continued support and advice is appreciated and needed.

I may be a newbie on MB principles, but there is a time to detach from the crap and then there is a time to be a lighthouse and Fight for your wife and family. I think you had an opportunity to do the latter.

I would have not hesitated to step up to the plate and perhaps even call the OM with your wife by your side and say what part of buzz off do you not understand ?

I saw an opportunity to break this cycle and be the hero. Anyone out there - let me know if I am in error.

MIN - I think this is VERY insightful of you. She KNOWS what she is doing and for you not to play into her wayward trap is a GOOD thing. Let her sit in her own mess for a while. She needs to miss you, not just want to use you.

You can meet her EN's another time when it isn't such a compromise for you, and that will show her that you respect yourself.

Free

MIN,

The night I didn't come home thinking I was implementing plan B was EXACTLY the same thing. My WW was texting me and leaving me voice mails at 2 am. At that point is was her turn to sit up all night freaking out being an emotional basket case wondering what she had done. I on the other hand was enjoying a peaceful night of sleep for the first time in a long time.

I think you have a VERY good situation here if your intention is still to restore your marriage. My WW has come back to me whole heartedly and said ALL the things a BS would want to hear. And done all the things like give me her email password, tell me about any additional contact from OM etc etc. We are on a very strong path to recovery and I don't see anything but the same from your WW. Only better because OM is now not in same town right! God's blessings. Avoid LBer's but take the reconciliation at your pace if needed. But be there for her too. I know she doesn't deserve it, but she is hurting too. And if you have the strength to open your arms to her to comfort her she will see you for the BIG man you are.. able to carry her pain and yours, able to rise above the disaster and be the lighthouse for your marriage and family.

Maybe you want to arrange family time but not couple time. That way you get to bond but get to avoid personal emotional trauma right now. Be strong. Please believe in your chances, I find much encouragement for you.

I think you handled it well. I think now is the time for some conditions. Tell her you want to work on the marriage and are willing to but not until certain things have happened, and basically give her what your Plan B conditions for reconciliation would have been.

If you go back to her before she's willing to meet those, then your M doesn't have a chance does it? And it sounds like no matter what happens, OM is on his way out, so let him be the bad guy.

MIN

Not sure if you are in PLan A or Plan B - let us know. I am assuming you are still in Plan A even though separated. If Plan A then feelings of being used have to be in check. You cannot expect any outcome from any action.

If she was reaching out for help to end the A with OM while OM was LBing - that was an opportunity to be the good guy. No conditions nor expectations in Plan A. I understand the feeling of being used - this whole affair business makes the BS feel like a doormat.

There will be other opportunities - this A is coming to a head.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I still consider myself in more of a Plan A right now even though we are separated. I am however guarding my heart and my feelings and keeping some distance.

Since it has only been a few days and she hasn't actually asked me to move back I think I am going to give it awhile to make sure the other guy is gone. So far they have called this thing off several times only to end up back together a few days later. To be honest, the same wouldn't surprise me if it happened again.

The OM is still mounting his continual assault on her trying to get her back and although she is still hanging in there it has only been a few days. I think she is coming out of the fog a little bit for now because she is acting more like her old self and becoming a little bit flirty. That being said I have seen this several times before I my heart can't take another riverdance all over it. I need to keep my distance until she comes to me wanting our marriage to work at which time I can lay out some conditions.

Good news last night though....I left her Surviving an Affair on her bed before she got home last night and she called me and thanked me for leaving it. She then TM'd me later to say she had read the first chapter and says it is a very good book and looks forward to reading more. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she will continue to read it so she can see the clear and narrow path to recovering our marriage after she gives her self some time for withdrawal. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Those sound like good signs MiN, hopefully she's coming around.

Okay....just talked to my WW and she is still talking to OM and somehow he has flipped things around on her to make her feel like the bad guy. She says he is mad at her about everything and she is still trying to get over him. She is also still in contact with him daily although things are not good right now.

This is classic....she thinks he is cheating on her with his BS, she gets mad and tells him she doesn't want to continue this relationship, he then tells her she is psycho and deranged for thinking such a thing, now she is back on her heels and trying to contact him because he has her convinced that she is overreacting.

She is still contacting me throughout this week, being flirty, telling me she is trying to get over him, telling me she hopes her and I workout someday and in the meantime this whole mess is back to square one again I get kicked in the teeth again. This whole thing is wearing me down where I don't know how much more I can take.

been there...

the affair seems to be imploding

Depending on your strength either

1. Support her as best you can doing Plan A and meeting her needs, reverse babbling, etc...look at the only upside to the current situation...being you are getting more opportunity to Plan A and focus less on hoping that THIS is the end of the affair....no, THIS is the end of the affair. The affair WILL end when it ends.

2. Stay away from her and allow her to feel rock bottom as both her affair and, maybe, her husband pull away from her at the same time (more risky but if you can't hack it you can't hack it).


I say...do #1 and don't expect things to change. Worry about what you do and what you can control.

ACT, Don't REACT

Take sometime for yourself to recharge when necessary. Go for a walk, to the gym, to a movie on your own. Don't obsess (easier said then done) but you need to take breathers from time to time but ulitimately your not in control of this....only yourself.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - a suggestion...don't just take a break this weekend on your own...perhaps invite your wife along to "take a break" also. Say...."honey, I need a break...lets just go out Sat night and NOT talk about this crap at all...just have a good time...not a date...just a few drinks (or a movie)...nothing romantic". Then...follow through and just let it go for a few hours with her...it will do MORE for recovery efforts, in the long run, than ANY conversation ever could. You MAY end up with a surprisingly candid conversation initiated by HER at the end of the night anyway...I did.

MiN

Mr W post is great advice. He has a way of understanding the situation and looking down the road on these things.

very tough road you are on - there is no doubt.

Another day of drama...I keep trying not to react, but I am as week as my WW when it comes to doing what needs to be done.

All this week and as late as last night she has been talking about reconciling someday and working on our marriage. Then I find out she was on the phone with OM for an hour last night and he apologized for the way he has treated her.

This morning she picks a fight out of nowhere and starts recapping all of the things I have done in the past again. Then when I start showing some emotion by crying she starts throwing daggers by saying how delicate I am. She then immediately says let's just end this (meaning filing for divorce).

My sadness turned to anger bitterness really quick and I immediately started shooting off emails to give her some perspective on what is going on and how I am sick of her cruelty and thoughtlessness.

Long story short she is completely unemotional when she tells me that we just need to end it and be done with it. Then she tells me that her hour long conversation with OM last night was him telling her that he is contemplating getting back with is BS and that what the hour long conversation was for.

I need some insight on why she is attacking me right now and picking a fight and being so hurtful along with my next recommended course of action since she seems so emotionally hollow right now.

Now I receive the following email....any feedback on how I should proceed would be appreciated.


My WW's email:

The text last night saying we would fix this was in reference to taking down my profile on Match. Go back and read it in that context. Lance, I would love for us to be able to be a family, but I just don’t know how that will ever happen. If you want to talk at the house or something like that, we can, but I’m not doing this at work.

If you cannot Plan A effectively, then you need to at least stop doing damage. I would tell her that there is nothing to talk about until she agrees to NC with OM, and STICK TO IT! Right now, you are feeding the beast, and it isn't good for you or the marriage.

She's mad at you because in a perfect world, er, a perfect FANTASY world. She and OM wouldn't be married, they'd be together forever, sipping margarita's on a beach in Mexico.

You and the rest of the REAL WORLD are torturing her.


It is likely the affair is imploding and OM is ending it (nothing is for sure); thus, I recommend staying out of the way and allowing it to end.

When OM dumped my wife...we went out to dinner and she was thinking exactly like your wife. She believed OM dumped her because it was just too complicated...thus, in her fog, the only way to uncomplicate it was for her to leave me, travel 750 miles away to live, leave dd5 here in Michigan with me, and EXPLORE their affair...you know...just to see. I didn't get mad. The affair was over and I EXPECTED that reaction (i.e.- ANYTHING to get another fix). I simply said "no" and continued on with my meal. I didn't cry or get upset. I was beyond that. I had no idea if OM was truly done with her (though I suspected it WAS actually over) and I knew my wife wasn't done with it....didn't change how I reacted. Just tried to enjoy my time with her that day and let tomorrow take care of itself. Talking about leaving...talking about divorcing you...talking about anything is irrelevant....you only REALLY have a problem when she takes action. Only some WS's actually do take action and hardly any do once the affair is over and withdrawal kicks in. The depression is overwhelming and they just seem to coast along in peaks and valleys TRYING to maintain a fantasy in their minds but slowly coming back to reality.

If you've read on these boards enough you'll notice my loving wife eventually came around...in spades. Clearing FOG takes time and really your wife will or won't do it ON HER OWN. Your best bet is being the best and strongest YOU that YOU can be. You meet her needs and she'll love you again...it's science (though I know how fair and unjust it is for YOU to have to go first).

Hope this helps...gotta run.

Mr. Wondering

MIN,

I agree with much advice you are getting here. Detached loving. Let go of her affects on you. Say this: "My happiness does not depend on my spouse." Now go do something that makes YOU happy. Otherwise you will be riding this rollercoaster with her nonstop. I know. On 12/27 my wife was very confident about us, was saying all the right things, then on New Years Eve she wanted to go with OM to the bar at 2am. She didn't. A week later she apologized for that situation. Alcohol played a role in that. Along those lines I might caution you against anything beyond 1 or 2 drinks when you and WW are together. Could lead to bad things quickly. And you need a level head as much as possible. Under the influence once my WW and I had sex and I now refer to that night as "scary" sex because of some things she said. Not good.

Back to my point, her rollercoaster will be going up and down for awhile still and you can choose to ride or not. I think alot of BSs here might reach the same conclusion... The words, actions and efforts of the BS made little difference to the WS or the A. Sure exposure helps but it doesn't immediately end things. And plan A is important but if there wasn't major things wrong before, plan A is about avoiding LBers and treating your WW as you would anyone who is sick or hurt. Care, kindness, helping, etc. View yourself as an angel protecting your family. Because you are right now. The only one who is.

As said above the A will end when it ends. Almost like the BS could have gone away for the time period of the A and come back to find WS ready to be in the marriage as though nothing had changed. I know this sort of goes against Plan A and you need to be resident to keep depositing love units... but again.. detached loving.

Here is the sophisticated approach I have heard on these boards... Plan B your WW, Plan A your W.

Don't forget these analogies. Plan A: Throwing rocks in the river. Many get thrown before any sign of progress is seen.

The email you just got: This is a set back but its just a bump on the road leading to recovery. She says she would LOVE to be a family again but just doesn't know if its possible. Well of course she doesn't because she is seeing OM. When that ends she will see it is possible. SAA will show her a path. MBers will show her a path. Your plan A will show her a path.

These little setbacks are just skirmishes in the war. YOu will lose some battles but still win the war!

MIN....keep battling. I feel like I'm in your shoes too.....but my WW won't even hint at reconciliation, she wants to spend her entire life with OM still. So, look at the bright side, at least you have seen some signs recently. I'm a rookie, but I see that as great news from where I am.

I'm having the same problems trying to plan A (from afar) and not get into these relationship/affair discussions. It is really tough. I'm pretty emotional, as it appears you are. Hang in there....we can do this!

ILA

Great posts Mr. W and BigPicture! MIN, read and reread these posts until they are down in your soul. Good stuff to help you find your way.

Wow... some REALLY good stuff you're getting here MiN!

I'm so sorry for your situation...you are NOT alone!

L2F

Thanks guys....this is all good stuff. The following is the latest email from my WW and she asked me to come over last night so we could talk. Just my opinion only, but she is still in cake eating mode and really has no idea what she wants. She says she knows what she wants, but acts like she doesn't how to get there. Seems fairly simple to me and it starts with actually putting forth some effort. Obviously I am over simplifying considering the fog and emotions. Thanks again for the continued support.

Most recent email from WW:

I would love for us to be able to be a family, but I just don’t know how that will ever happen. If you want to talk at the house or something like that, we can, but I’m not doing this at work.

So did you go?

Yes I went, but we didn't talk. She said our blow up was a result of financial stress and before I went to the house I spreadsheeted our finances out several months and showed her that our finances were actually a lot better than she had thought. After looking at the spreadsheet she agreed and her demeanor changed completely. We just kept things light and actually laughed a little and I left after about an hour.

It's shocking to see how quick peaks can turn into valleys and vice versa regarding her emotions, but from what I am learning this is completely normal.

Yep, unbelievable but completely predictable.

Okay after a decent week of my WW staying away from OM all of it ended last night. OM had been contacting her all weekend telling her how depressed he is because him and his BS are fighting. He told her that his BS drives him crazy always asking where he is going, what he is doing and accusing him of meeting my WW or talking to her on the phone. He is being victimized by his BS because she just won't trust him. I can't imagine why since he is the low life scum of the earth that has cheated on her several times. Now he comes crying the blues to my WW about how depressed he is because he is now having to live with just a few consequences of his actions.

My WW spent a couple of hours on the phone with him last night and their TM'ing sessions have now started up again. She is going to his town next weekend to meet some of her friends, but I am sure they are going to hook up while she is there.

So to summarize, she wants me to help her get over this guy, I continue to Plan A knowing full well I am going to get kicked in the teeth again. We have a pretty decent weekend and now this whole thing is going to start all over again. When is she going to start having some sympathy for her BS and the depression he is going through instead of some guy who has proven to his wife and my WW that he can't be trusted, is a liar, a cheater, a horrible father and someone that doesn't care about anyone except for himself.

I am a strong believer in Karma and if there is any justice Karma will sort all of this out in the most poetic way imaginable. I just don't know how that will be yet.

So off I go to Plan A this week knowing full well she is going to hook up with his disease infested a** this weekend.

Sounds like a great thing to put in a card and mail to her.

Have you informed the OMW that the OM is in contact with your W again?

No and I'm not sure it would do any good since her divorce is already final and she has said she wants nothing to do with her WH.

I'm not sure I follow then - who is this BS that the OM is complaining about then?

Keep venting here. (Since OM is such a lame, whiny person you don't want to come across the same way.)

Reread the Carrot & Stick post. Plan A isn't a lifelong sentence to a one-sided relationship.

As Catperson said, you should let her know how you feel. I wasn't always good at articulating my negative emotions to my WW. (I often just sucked it up, even before her A.) You should explain in a non-judging, non-threatening way that her continued interactions with OM really damage your M, and make it hard for you to keep your love for her. If you ever do get to a point of Plan B or Plan D, you want to be sure she had full knowledge of what she was doing and the likely consequences.

What helps you remember why you are doing this? How's your LB balance?

Take care of yourself.

- WG

Sorry for the confusion....it is actually FBS and as they are now divorced.

Thanks WG....my daughter and the good interactions I have with my WW that remind me of what used to be my W is that keep me doing this. My LB balance is getting better by the day and the good news is that she continues to read SAA and has commented about the Love Bank. Unfortuntately the only commentary she has had on the Love Bank has been that I had bankrupted her Love Bank prior to the affair which is how she seems to justify everything.

I guess I need to let her know that I have a Love Bank of my own and mine is getting dangerously low while I continue to fill hers. I guess I will need to go to Plan B when my Love Bank is empty or I run out of teeth whichever comes first.

Well, of course it is no justification. However, can you take a step back and see if you did perhaps empty her Love Bank? I've heard (though it didn't play out this way in my M) that sometimes a BS's willingness to admit to marital fault can penetrate some of the WS's fog. Of course it has to be sincere, honest, and accurate.

I would consider if she continues to read SAA, that is a mildly good sign. She hasn't, for example, totally given up on the M. I struggled with 'loving detachment', but if you can avoid getting too beaten up yourself, I think you have reason to hope.

Rotten luck that OM Plan D'd before all this.

- WG

I wouldn't be too sure she is going to see her friends at all. But you might expose to them. Emphasize that you really want to build a good M with WW and that you are concerned about your DD.

I'm not sure that this is in (or out) of the MB-playbook, but you could ask (not beg) her to change her mind shortly before she plans on leaving. (The theory being that you are trying to protect her from a mistake she will one day regret.) Tell her that you are concerned that she will be too tempted to meet with OM and that it will hurt you personally and your M's chances at recovery. Ask her to go visit someplace (180 degrees away from OM) with you and DD instead. Leave both of your cell phones behind. Don't talk at all about the M unless she initiates and just enjoy each others company. Hopefully this will frustrate OM. Its a longshot, but hotels are cheaper than lawyers.

- WG

Still trying to work my Plan A. My WW continues to move closer to me, calling me to do stuff occasionally, joking around, TM'ing me and just calling to talk. Sometimes it's even a little flirty. However she also continues to talk to OM on the phone and send TM's back and forth constantly. This morning she had another call coming on in her cell and told me it was her boss, but it was in fact OM. That kind of stuff is really painful, but I still continue to turn the other cheek and don't say a word. I can't seem to use the "Stick" in Plan A without LB'ing so I just continue using the "Carrot". I need to get a lot better at reverse babble I guess so I can use the "Stick" occasionally.

She is still planning on going out of town to see "friends" this weekend and I believe she is really going to see her friends, but since OM is now also in the same town I would be shocked if she didn't see him while she was there.

From what I can tell she is making no effort to stay away from him now so less than a week after she desperately wanted to stay away from him and try to get over him I am back to square one again.

This Plan A is a living ******. One step forward and 10 steps back and each time it happens my Love Bank just gets decimated and I get angrier and more bitter. Then she'll start acting sweet, flirty and starts filling my Love Bank again and the whole process happens all over again.

The whole thing really makes me constantly think about just giving up, getting over her and moving on. The only thing that keeps me from doing that is my daughter. This emotional roller coaster is the worst and I constantly have to keep myself from trying to control the situation in a lot of ways, but I am doing better at just letting go and letting God.

Thanks for continued support and feedback.

Different day, same story. WW picks fight with me again and says it's because of the triggers she is feeling over what I have done in the past. Now when I say what I have done in the past we are talking about things like, not pay enough attention to her, I lied about business finances probably 8 to 10 times in the past 5 years.

What I have done is be a faithful husband who has always loved his wife and never so much as even flirted with another woman, never raised my voice to my wife, never called her one name and avoid arguments and compromise with her regardless of whose at fault. I have been a tremendous father to our child and since she told me she was unhappy I have literally done everything in my power to make her happy, change, show her affection and fix finances.

What I have got in return is a wife who has had an EA and a PA, lied to me literally hundreds of times, blamed me for everything that is currently going wrong in our marriage, name calling, yelling, bad mouthing to her friends and family and kicking me in the teeth repeatedly by reeling me and my emotions back to her whenever she feels me pulling away. Once she gets me back, she then goes running back to OM, lying to me repeatedly about it, then starts the whole process all over again. I have fallen for it every single time and have noticed in the past week that I am really starting to trigger on much smaller things by being angry and bitter. Luckily I have done okay keeping that anger and bitterness to myself, but the constant blaming of me for everything is what really gets to me.

I would never in a million years put someone through what she is putting me through, yet she could absolutely care less even though she knows exactly what she is putting the father of her child through. It would be so much better if she would just be a little less selfish and just let me go instead of hedging her bet,

I want to tell her so bad that if OM is such a catch than take your a** out of state to him, leave your daughter and me alone and go discover what the real world is going to be about with this OM. He is a worthless waste of humanity who threw his own family away and has proven that he is a complete liar, a repeated cheater and cares less for his own child than he does his own sexual gratification.

I am really fighting the urge to confront him in person and let's see what kind of a man this guy really is. He would run for the hills if he saw me coming and given the opportunity would do the same thing to my WW that he did to his wife of 17 years and his own child.

I guess you can tell that I am really having a hard time not LB'ing right now.

My WW is not the person I fell in love with any more and she is making it easier and easier to get over her on a daily basis by her repeat offenses and I am starting to wonder whether this is worth the effort anymore.

Constructive feedback and a pep talk is obviously needed and if it wasn't for my daughter I would no longer need MB any longer. I would have just let my wife screw up her own life and done what I could do to be happy. It is all so unfair....my WW throws our family down the toilet and I either have to be here to try and rebuild something she continues to tear down OR I only get to see half of my daughter's life. I am furious right now.

Hi MIN,
I feel like old friends following your story. How r u?? How is the sitch??

Let me see if I remember correctly... OM is in different town right?! How far is that away? WW has to make very explicit effort to see him right? He can't just stop by after work right? That is very good. You live in same town. You have many years together on your side. You have DD together! You know her best. You CAN just drop by, you CAN invite her over for shish kabobs or whatever her favorite food is. You have full custody right now? Email her pics of your beautiful baby from last night when you dressed her up in a new dress.. and WW missed all the fun cooing baby talk. Send her video tape of such times.

See what I mean. Forget about A as much as possible. It will end on its own. When it does you better look like the obvious choice who has accepted her, supported her, helped her, forgiven her. I might suggest going to Super Plan A. Send her cards, sweet nothings, drop gifts at her door, send flowers to work, write her poetry about your desires and hope for your future together, invite her to church. Gas up her car and wash it. Be surprising and romantic. Get her to notice what she fell in love with years ago. None of this has to acknowledge the A. You don't need to get kicked in the teeth each time you communicate with her. Plan A wife, plan B WW. As in post above, maybe do some activities together just like you did when you were dating. Go have FUN together! You kind of have a neat opportunity for that since you live separately as unfortunate as that is. "Hey Honey... I got a sitter. Put on your dancing shoes, I'm picking you up at 8!" Date her, woo her, court her. During our ordeal, I still joked with my WW about all this. At one point I joked I was going to join this new gym I heard about (where OM works). yeah right. Another time we talked about the money I had in savings and she joked if I had been hoarding it in case we got divorced. Eh, it seemed funny at the time.

If the rollercoaster is too much and you start picking a plan B date then good for you. YOU are deciding how you want to live your life regardless what she does. But an effective plan B requires a GREAT plan A. Make plan A the BEST thing you have ever done in your LIFE!! Don't just meet her needs, exceed them. You love her right? Then treat her like she is the most important thing in the world to you. A gift from God. But put God first and know that you will be OK and intact when this is over whether she is with you or not.

My wife kept saying how attracted she was to me as a strong CONFIDENT person and how unattracted she was to me when I was worried and depressed about all this. Very tough to do, it is totally unnatural but worth it cuz if you start acting like you are ok then you will be self confident, less worried and not hurt by whatever her actions are. In some ways you have to be where she is... She is unsure about your marriage- Whoa, whadduknow! So are you. This might be the place of reverse babble. Her: I just can't see us back together in love... You: “Neither can I if you continue seeing OM. I hope you can end this soon so we can start working on our marriage as you suggested last week!”

Are you trading weekends watching daughter?? That will tie her up every other weekend right so you can have time for yourself too. Did you get anywhere with her about what I posted that another D will only get her more D's, not happy marriage. In other words what is her goal? Long ago I told my WW I was acting on my goals, vows and principles, NOT my emotions. If her goal is happy relationship with father of her children then she should start acting like that is possible despite not feeling it now.

Have you asked her questions like in my example of selling and sales? Or what would she do if she had a year to live? Or fill out the EN's questions? Did you really plan A HER needs. Author Gary Smalley has an easier path to fulfilling EN's than Harley. They are 5 Languages of Love (the title of his book): Acts of Service (domestic), Gifts, Words of Affirmation or Encouragment, Physical Touch, and Quality Time. Which one did you miss or is her top need? You can be doing a great plan A and still miss her needs. You will be most efficient at filling her LB if its her TOP need.

I suggest you go back through this thread and find the nuggets of gold. They are in there and will help you cope and help establish you as the logical and emotional choice.

If God is part of your plan try James: "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."