Marriage Builders
It's a New Year. I think I'm turning over a new leaf after what I just posted to K on the Success Stories thread.

I don't want to threadjack that thread (but nor do I want to delete it), so I thought I'd just start a new thread to see if anyone else feels like I do.

This thread may get locked or I may get banned by MB. If so, so be it.

Chrisner called me the social chairperson around here but I'm not so sure what I'll be called after this.

I'm not a newbie any longer but neither am I an MB Veteran. I started to think of myself as an MB V.I.T. (Veteran-In-Training) but now I wonder if I even want to be that.

Why?

Cause I'm weary.

I'm weary of the 'war of words' and the power plays, the accusations, the ignoring, the insensitivities, the innuendos and the outright slams....and I haven't even been here a year yet.

To repeat an old phrase, "can't we all just get along?"

Oh.......and....uh....HAPPY NEW YEAR. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] Edited to change subtitle. [/color]
Happy New Year, Acey.

We're very fortunate to have you here. Thanks for all you do.

Best,
Jo
I'm with you Acey -

I try to skip those threads, and I'm sure I've been very guilty in the past. Trying to turn over a new leaf for the New Year - chasing after being a Proverbs:31 woman.
Ace,

I skip them too. I use to do the same on the other board I use to frequent. It eliminates unneeded frustration.

LC
Hi Acey,

I appreciate your dedication here to bringing up the old positive threads. I enjoy the threads you pull up that help me see where the vets "came from".

I apologize if you feel my earlier post to StillSame was offensive. I did call him/her a liar and stalker. I am weary myself. Weary of this person continuing to ignore my requests that he/she leave us alone. Nonetheless, I have the option to put this person on ignore....but, my goodness, 14 usernames! I was glad that JustUss deleted my post quickly as I really didn't want it to become a distraction to the threads where people need help. I didn't think of emailing JustUss, but realize now that would have been a better alternative than the actual post. BUT we all know this person will be back, don't we?

As far as the "other" threads. I agree with you, but admit that I was drawn into those conversations easily. I thank you for redirecting my attention, which tst and I had been discussing already.

Blessings to you.
I've been trying to stay out of those too, Acey.

It seems they begin as differing opinions and degrade rapidly into personal attacks. Nobody wins. Nobody gets help. Nobody learns. Somebody gets hurt. Somebody checks out and Marriage Builders is poorer than before.

JMO and hardly anyone cares about that, I'm sure.

Mark
It would be good to be able to. However, IT is coming back with a new name as we type. "TheRealBA" is a new junior member.

Sheesh, could it be????

It's like that robot in the Terminator.
It seems that we can bash the trolls or ignore the trolls, starve 'em of the attention they're seeking and hope they go away.....or.....we can stalk them to newbie threads and then reply with truth when they expose their ignorant errors....or a number of other to-be-determined-limited options.

But in the meantime, the trolls win if we start bashing each other and ignoring hurting people.

Ace
I find it's best to just ignore people who bother me w/o making a grand announcement about it. Trolls eat that stuff up and then try their hardest to get people to "like them" therefore talk to them.

LC
TRUE CONFESSION..... I yelled NOOOOOO! when I saw that the troll was back in the top slot....wondering who had posted to it.

But it was strange that there was a 0 in the reply box. And after I clicked on refresh, I saw that it was JUSTUSS!!!!!

Whooo hooo! Way to go Justuss!!!

Ace
I haven't stopped helping the newbies. I help off-board a lot, because I don't have to deal with the interference that way, either.

With 15 usernames, it becomes difficult to warn the newbies of the user who is a current problem unless we let one another know it is back under a new name again. The regular members pretty much would recognize it, of course, but the newbies don't know the history and would not know.

I haven't seen regular members "bashing" each other (well, let me qualify that): those who haven't usually "bashed" each other in some way before anyway.

And I do see healing and reconciliation happening as well. Why, just yesterday or the day before, even Mel and MEDC exchanged pleasantries and greetings with smiley faces all around.

Yeah, it happened!

I think that it's fine for disagreements to happen. Respectful disagreements are fine. The issues discussed here are serious, and tough to talk about without disagreements. People get upset, they are passionate about their beliefs. That's to be expected, because this topic is emotional and brings up memories, triggers, and personal experiences rapt with fire and tears and pain.

But people also need to understand that a disagreement on the boards need not involve name calling, DJs, or LBs - just like in the MB plan.

(And yes, for the record, for the first time on the boards, I did call a troll a name yesterday. I have had enough. I am guilty, and fallible.)


But overall, I don't see that happening. Most of the time people disagree respectfully. They offer help to those in need, humor at times, their own stories for ideas, and support through experience, links, and the MB principles.

I think we have just had a few threads with some people who needed to have a discussion and air their problems out. That happens. It doesn't mean we need to paint the boards with a broad brush, and also doesn't mean we need to ignore the problems, either. There's a need to address the problem posters, and JustUss is on it; she also deleted the threads that became too controversial and offensive to the principles of the owners of the board. That's their right, and personally, I would suppose if I owned the boards I would do what I thought was right as well.

As far as we members are concerned, YES, we do need to continue to support the newbies.

Because it is ethically and morally the right thing to do.
Because they need our support

whether they are BS
or WS

they need help in getting through the difficulty of infidelity.

And as members, we also have a duty to help the moderators when we see the problems crop up again, and to let others know that the problems have returned.

If anyone has any ideas how to handle the problem, please email Justuss.

SB
THANK YOU SCHOOLBUS. I do have an idea but it would be difficult (maybe impossible) to implement...but it is an idea.

What if all bonafide recovered posters linked their stories to their sig lines when posting to anyone registering within the previous months....3-6-9-a year? Whatever....it really doesn't matter. We usually omit our sig lines when we post to friends in need or on fun threads but that's not what I'm talking about.

Those of us who are not yet recovered but are serious and trying to encourage and share what little we've gleaned could post a 'status story', even if we don't have a success story per se.

Troll hunters (yes, we'd need everyone to be vigilant) could have solid (or falsified-to-be-revealed later) information and could work with the mods to reduce (wish it could be eliminated) the negative effects of developmentally challenged posters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It might be a hassle, but here would be the upside. Newly registered posters could be encouraged to check out the sig line stories as well as the date registered and number of posts. It might give them a better way of way to identify who to listen to and who might be suspect.

Veterans could recognize new posters and encourage them to check out success or status stories for POV, similarity of sitch, etc.

Trolls could still falsify status stories (not necessarily success stories) but the inconsistencies could be rooted out easier so the mods could be alerted quicker.

Like I said, it might be a hassle, but it is an idea...and many recovered and recovering posters are already doing it.

Ace
Good idea. You know, I never had a thread of my own. Somebody asked me to link them yesterday, and I didn't remember ever having one. I went back and researched, and I really didn't. I just had a post or two. Mostly, I was a reader and didn't start posting much until later in recovery. I guess I wouldn't know what to link someone to in my case!

SB
Personally, I'm getting weary of threads about the "war of words" Maybe that is just me.
Hey Hi!

Sorry BK, but I guess I missed those threads or I would not have duplicated them.

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Personally, I'm getting weary of threads about the "war of words" Maybe that is just me

Thanks for your post, it reminded me of when Aph was being accused of being a troll on the Recovery forum. You and I were the only ones posting to her for quite a while, supporting her and bumping her thread when she disappeared. I always meant to ask you why you discerned what you did.

Do you remember?

Ace
I do remember Acey. I liked her honesty and her genuineness to me anyway.
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I do remember Acey. I liked her honesty and her genuineness to me anyway.

I think there may have been dissention towards you and me for supporting her. I was a newbie, but I saw her consistency....she kept her story straight cuz she was telling the truth.

Hey Aph...hope you're reading this. You are a prime example of why it would be great if posters linked their stories to their sig lines. You were unjustifiably accused of being a troll but you stuck it out. I think Larry's eventually confirming you were legit truly helped.

But you, Aph did not waver in your story. It was bizarre enough to be suspect, but many of us have those wild kinds of stories and have no idea why anyone would question it. But yours was questioned, mine was too, but we're still here.

What about others who might not have had a _Larry_ to back up their story?

And worst, what if the arguments that ensued made veteran posters even more weary than the stories themselves?

On the other hand, if Aph had been a troll, she would have eventually tripped herself up....lies do that sooner or later.

Glad you remembered, BK......thanks for posting.

Ace

P.S. I'm still recruiting for that MB BBQ you promised we're all invited to in 2010. I've been charging air miles like crazy.....Bob P said you were financing the whole thing, but I set him straight!!! LOL
Happy New Year Ace,

No comment on the title. I just avoid those threads because they aren't productive. You contribute a lot around here, so I hope that you will stay. Just say NO to wars of words.
thank you to all who have "come before" me a newbie... you've all been great. I think it's funny, I nicknamed OW troll, before I got on and started posting here.

ACE I think you are doing a great job as a "V.I.T."
One problem is that sometimes someone is ID'd as a troll, and isn't one. I've seen that several times.

I would rather post to a thousand trolls than ignore ONE hurting person.
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Just say NO to wars of words.

If I could tell that trolls were definitely trolls, I would blast away with the best of them....and I would say more than NO!

Thanks for your kind words, Chai. Did I say I was thinking of leaving? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Dang, I messed up....I can't go no where.....I need this place too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh...I may have said I didn't know if I wanted to be a Veteran In Training but I meant to help others like the seasoned, overbaked, ancient, old timers do year after year after year. I waver between taking all I can get and giving back nothing (not all the time, but sometimes) and actually envisioning my DH and I being a team here day and night for years and years and years to come.

Of course, he does NOT like to write (and when he does it's a trigger for me as he only did it for OW).....so that may not happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Chai...so glad you're here, too. We're all in this together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

[color:"red"]Edited to add:

PS Dang, Believer, SS and I were simulposting. Thanks SS. [/color]

[color:"blue"]*****************************************************************************************

Mark asked a great question below that I inadvertently simulposted after, seemingly interrupting the flow of his thoughts when I replied to FH's post, also below. I'm duplicating FH's post here ~ it's worthy of reading twice ~ and moving my reply up here so I may delete it below:

****************************************************************************************** [/color]

ForeverHers
Member


Reged: May 01 2002
Posts: 7258
Re: ***Are you WEARY of the WAR of WORDS**** (or is it just me?) [Re: Ace_in_bucket]
#3368192 - Tue Jan 01 2008 06:27 PM


hmmmm....I'll have to think about this one a little, Ace.

Words have meanings and sometimes words are used as weapons, not to help someone. Sometimes they can be ignored and sometimes they can't, or shouldn't, be ignored.

But in general, "wars of words" have always been a part of MB and will likely always be a part of MB because it's an open system to all, and with as many people from differing beliefs, backgrounds, even countries, there will be the inevitable "clash of ideas."

************************************************************************************
Ace_in_bucket
Member


Reged: Jan 14 2007
Posts: 3196
Re: ***Are you WEARY of the WAR of WORDS**** (or is it just me?) [Re: ForeverHers]
#3368211 - Tue Jan 01 2008 07:17 PM


Good point, FH and you're right. This title of this thead kind of slipped out in my post to K and I rode it for awhile.

But I think I may change it based on your last statement:


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But in general, "wars of words" have always been a part of MB and will likely always be a part of MB because it's an open system to all, and with as many people from differing beliefs, backgrounds, even countries, there will be the inevitable "clash of ideas."


Clash of ideas is often needed and healthy for any progress to be made. But not the personal attacks. I was telling K that the Enabling/Controlling thread had numerous clashes of ideas. Yet it was likened to threads of yesteryear by seasoned veterans who posted with respect for both the ideas shared and the person sharing them.

A newbie SS asked for that thread today and I was proud to bump it for her. But if the helpful insights were interspersed with bashings and blastings leved at the poster's personal existence, that thread might not have been as helpful.

While you think about the concept, FH, I'll try to come up with a more appropo title. (No guarantees that my changing the title won't change the concepts while you're in the middle of thinking about it.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...LOL! )

Thanks,
Ace
hmmmm....I'll have to think about this one a little, Ace.

Words have meanings and sometimes words are used as weapons, not to help someone. Sometimes they can be ignored and sometimes they can't, or shouldn't, be ignored.

But in general, "wars of words" have always been a part of MB and will likely always be a part of MB because it's an open system to all, and with as many people from differing beliefs, backgrounds, even countries, there will be the inevitable "clash of ideas."
I had a verbose reply all typed out and was editing it when I decided to try a different tack...

Do I have any responsibility for the way people react or respond to me.? In other words, do I have a moral or ethical responsibility for the way others perceive me or my actions?

Suppose you go with friends to a rather large noisy bar where the reputation of the establishment is a bit on the racy side. Since you are in training for the NYC marathon, you don't drink, just hang out with friends and listen to the way-too-loud music from the sound system. As you leave the bar, a group of passers-by accosts your group verbally calling you a bunch of worthless drunks.

You know you weren't even drinking and that your friends are anything but worthless since they are doctors and lawyers and business executives...

So do you have any responsibility for being thought to be worthless or a drunk or anything else these people might accuse you of though they don't know anything about you?

Suppose you go to another club a week later with different friends, all professional athletes celebrating their world championship. The party is really cranking soon after it starts and as you and a couple of others who have families waiting at home for you extract yourselves from the revelry and exit the club having never had so much as a soft drink, the same group of people goes by and once more says that you and your friends are worthless drunkards.

Now do you have any responsibility for their perceptions?

And of course I have a reason for posting this here, but I want to see who responds first and see how they respond as well.
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Now do you have any responsibility for their perceptions?


I don't know how we can control another's perception. We can, however, control the image we attempt to project, but how it is perceived is then out of our control, I think.

Responsibility? Can we be responsible for what we cannot control?

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And of course I have a reason for posting this here, but I want to see who responds first and see how they respond as well.

I am looking forward to your reason, Mark.

Ace

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I had a verbose reply all typed out and was editing it when I decided to try a different tack...

I'd like to read your verbose approach as well as your different tack.

Ace
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One problem is that sometimes someone is ID'd as a troll, and isn't one. I've seen that several times.

Yeah, me too.

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I would rather post to a thousand trolls than ignore ONE hurting person.


Or even worse, drive them off with a false accusation.
You know, Ace, it's only in "blessed time" that we get to know one another on these boards, don't you think?

That's an interesting idea about the links. I will give due consideration to linking my story in my sig line, then it will be even more accessible than in the "Success Stories" thread.
Thanks, Neak,

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You know, Ace, it's only in "blessed time" that we get to know one another on these boards, don't you think?

That's an interesting idea about the links. I will give due consideration to linking my story in my sig line, then it will be even more accessible than in the "Success Stories" thread.

Enhanced accessibility to stories of recovered or recovering posters is the first benefit. When a new poster has NO link to a status story (first post or thread) attached to a sig line, it might expose the fact that there may NOT be a story ~ but other reasons ~ that such a poster has arrived here on these forums. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And yes, it is about time that we get to know each other better on these boards. Thanks for linking/posting your success story to that thread. (One of these days I'm going to compile a list of all the stories on that thread and see who is missing.)

If you are recovering or have recovered (individually or maritally,) ~ if you haven't done so yet ~ please post/link your story to the Success Story thread (link in my sig line) or your own sig line, especially when posting to newbies.

Thanks,

Ace
Regarding the idea of being responsible for the perceptions of others - we are responsible for what we do and how we comport ourselves.

If others have misperceptions, then the perceptions are based on what information their brains have and the interpretations their informations systems place on it at the time. That is perception, basically. We take in information through our sensory system, we make "sense" of that information via our neurological systems - perception.

Our brains err all the time. You're walking through the woods and see something on the ground and jump, thinking it's a snake, only to discover it's just a stick. Your perception was wrong. Are you "responsible" for that error? Just a systemic error - that's it. Natural responses set in motion to protect you from getting snakebit, but it was an error (that time!).

So in my mind, the answer to the question if others' perceptions of me bear my own "responsibility" in your scenario is NO. I think that unless I have purposely done something to cause that perception to be skewed in one direction or another - then yes, I bear "responsibility" in that sense. Other than that, no, I don't. In the bar scenario, I have done nothing to skew the perception of my drunkeness or worthlessness. The other person bears responsbility for judging my condition without research or evidence.


If this relates to the troll accusations - well, they are certainly on the board. One has his own thread and is currently apologizing, finally.

The mods do their job.

SB
Not a lot of answers yet, but definitely the answers I expected.

Now suppose that you are attending a company picnic and the same group of people walks through the park and they see you with a beer can in your hand. Though you are really only carrying an empty can to the trash, they assume you have been drinking. And of course, they then say something about you being drunk every time they see you.

Is it still only my responsibility to know the truth, or does the way someone else perceives my actions begin to reflect on me in such a way that my own credibility is being impugned?

At what point am I responsible for the way my actions are perceived?

What if a child who respects me is with that group of people? Does that child believe I am a drunk? Does that child believe that it is OK to get drunk based on my actions even though they were misinterpreted? Do I have any responsibility for what that child believes?

In order to foster further discussion, I will add that this has to do with perceived intent versus unintended consequences.

If someone is offended by my actions or words, do I have any responsibility for that offense though I intended none when I first acted or spoke?

Mark
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If someone is offended by my actions or words, do I have any responsibility for that offense though I intended none when I first acted or spoke?

Depends. Would a reasonable person know that it was likely to cause offence? Is taking offense unreasonable?
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If someone is offended by my actions or words, do I have any responsibility for that offense though I intended none when I first acted or spoke?

Possibly to some extent.....

I did a topic on the Vacation fun thread that involved something perceived to be offensive although I did not intend for it to be. (I thought it would be funny to try to assign a cartoon character to OW images which eventually led to OW bashing.) Did I realize that it might possibly be offensive to FWWs? NO! But it hit me out of the blue that it might be perceived as being insensitive so I immediately changed the topic and apologized for my lack of forethought.

It was not my intent, but I felt it was my responsibility to try to own my error as soon as I realized it.

Were some FWWs offended? I knew of one but there could have been many more and I felt horrible. If you are a FWW who was offended by that topic many moons ago, please accept my sincere apologies. I am very careful now and will be from now on when trying to think of creative non-affair topics.

Does that example fit with what you're aiming at, Mark?

Ace
I'm still gone, but:

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I think that unless I have purposely done something to cause that perception to be skewed in one direction or another - then yes, I bear "responsibility" in that sense. Other than that, no, I don't.

I think that it is because we can't always be certain that our actions won't harm someone, that we have 2 be careful what we choose 2 do that might affect other people.

Ultimately, this is about controlling ourselves by controlling our actions, and doing our best not 2 appear 2 someone else 2 be trying 2 control them.

Empathy.

So, I agree that we're not responsible for others' perceptions, but there may be times when it is in our own best interests 2 be a bit more thoughtful of our actions, lest they are misinterpreted. In the examples Mark gives, it is the beholder who's responsible for their own judgment. And one would hope that they could avoid drawing prema2re conclusions about what they observe.

Empathy again.

-ol' 2long, exiting stage left.
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If others have misperceptions, then the perceptions are based on what information their brains have and the interpretations their informations systems place on it at the time.

So where we stand depends on where we sit...

So someone else may misunderstand us and jump to the wrong conclusions. But what if that same person routinely makes that erroneous jump? Do I have any responsibility for what they think, feel or how they react to my actions or words?

Or what if many people routinely make that wrong assumption and misjudge our intent?

And if it happens many times, is that what makes the difference or does the same judgment apply no matter how often or how many times someone else takes offense at what we say or do, though we intended no harm when formed our words or committed our act?

Is the criteria used to be "do no harm" or should it be, "to appear to do no harm." Or is the only thing that really matters that we are honest with ourselves about our intent?

And does the fact that someone else misjudged my intent and based their feelings about my actions on that misjudgment mean that their offense at my action is their fault and that I have no responsibility in how they have judged me, wrongly as it might be?

This begins as such an easy question to answer because of course I am not responsible for anything anyone else does or says...until what they do or say is a response to what I have said or done. Now it gets much stickier.

As a BS am I responsible for having feelings of anxiety when I am triggered by an event or action or some other thing related to the affair, or is the FWS responsible for my reaction when I am triggered?

And if the FWS knows of some thing or event that is likely to trigger me, do they have a responsibility in regard to my triggering when they cause it to happen?

Let's try a fishing analogy here...

When I throw a spinner bait with a gold willow-leaf blade and a chartreuse and white skirt into the water and retrieve it beside a log where a 6 pound bass is lurking in the shade and that fish triggers (the releaser is dead on) and bites my spinner bait, do I have any part in that fish's decision to attack that spinner bait? Or is the choice solely up to Mr Largemouth?

Mark
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Is the criteria used to be "do no harm" or should it be, "to appear to do no harm." Or is the only thing that really matters that we are honest with ourselves about our intent?

well I'd go for the latter. It is very hard for someone else to guess my intent and they guess wrong a lot anyway.

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And does the fact that someone else misjudged my intent and based their feelings about my actions on that misjudgment mean that their offense at my action is their fault and that I have no responsibility in how they have judged me, wrongly as it might be?

Why does it have to be anyone's fault????

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As a BS am I responsible for having feelings of anxiety when I am triggered by an event or action or some other thing related to the affair, or is the FWS responsible for my reaction when I am triggered?

You are responsible for your own triggers IMO. I will say however that if I am triggered by anything and my wife understands it is a trigger, she would rather die than ever trigger me again. That's care.
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Empathy again.

2long maybe you should consider practicing empathy towards Christians since you think it is fine to say very blasphemous things quite often.
Does the fact that I didn't mean to hurt someone's feelings absolve me of responsibility if their feelings are hurt by something I say or do?

What I am driving at here is that we ARE responsible for how others see us, perceive us or respond to what we say or do. And when we accidentally cause harm to someone, we should take responsibility for it and attempt to make amends.

But there is even another dynamic at play here. When I KNOW someone else will misjudge my intent, misunderstand what I am saying or doing, and then do or say it anyway, I have done intentional harm to them because I had the ability to circumvent those reactions from them all along but CHOSE not to adjust my own actions or words because how they see me isn't my responsibility. I have used the fact that it is them choosing to attempt to absolve me of any wrong doing in the matter.

And even in cases where I do not intentionally make an inflammatory remark for the purpose of stirring up trouble, when it is pointed out to me that my action or words were inflammatory, and I repeat the process again and then try to defend it, now I HAVE crossed the line and am no longer without responsibility for my actions or words because I now KNOW that my words or actions are being misinterpreted and still choose to continue without modification.

BK, you and I agree that we should appear to do no harm. The fact that we didn't mean to do harm does not remove guilt in a court of law and should not in social interactions either.

When anything is done that is wrong, there always is someone at fault. Someone is to blame. Courts of law are all about affixing and assigning blame and fault to individuals.

And while I am responsible for allowing myself to trigger to some event or thing, does that mean that the person who caused the trigger to exist is absolved of all responsibility in my triggering. Though it is up to me to find a way to stop triggering at some event, it does not remove the responsibility of the person creating or continuing that event in my reaction to the trigger.

What we have here is really a case of not caring or a lack of what 2long has called empathy. Because those who are standing on their right to say things and having no responsibility for how those things are taken, processed and turned into a response are ignoring the fact that it is not merely a one time thing but something that is repeated over and over again. They defend their actions and words and claim it is their right and how others perceive their actions and words is not their responsibility. But knowing we are being misjudged and continuing unabated on the same tack shows that we are proceeding with malicious intent.

Mark
This seems to be a fairly nice discussion (and yes - gasp - even disagreement) going on here.

Just remember, whenever any of us gets discouraged by the storm, that it won't rain always.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Even when it rains, it won't rain forever...

Mark
I really need to go to bed...

Nightie-night.

Mark
BK questioned why fault needs to be assigned. If I had not realized that it was my fault when I introduced that topic which led to OW bashing and offended at least one FWW, I would not have owned it and fixed what I could after the original offense.

g'nite Mark and all......thanks for the thoughts that will circle in my brain as I, too try to sleep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ace
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Just remember, whenever any of us gets discouraged by the storm, that it won't rain always.

This seems to be a fairly nice discussion (and yes - gasp - even disagreement) going on here.

Great observation, Neak. Hopefully it will continue this way.

Did you just link your story to your sig line? Or was it there all along? If so...that's way cool. If it was there all along...my bad...time for bed for real. (Can't even remember who I posted to about considering linking her story to her sig line, but I vaguely recall it was you and I'm too tired to go back and look.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

At any rate, glad it's there.....I hope many others who have not will consider linking theirs, too.

Ace
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Even when it rains, it won't rain forever...
That can be doubtful during the winter in Seattle. It seems to ALWAYS rain and ALWAYS can seem like forever.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey Acey

Just bear in mind two things :

For evil to thrive requires only that good men do nothing

and

Peace is not merely the absence of active conflict.

Theres a lot of ad-hominem shouting which is a terrible waste of everyone's time, but there's also strongly-presented RIGHTEOUS opinion offered that can cut through fog.

Have a blessed 2008 !
Amen, Bob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mark, I'll take a stab at answering your "intended to be thought provoking" statements and questions, at least from how I "see" it.


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Do I have any responsibility for the way people react or respond to me.? In other words, do I have a moral or ethical responsibility for the way others perceive me or my actions?


No, you are NOT responsible for other people's perceptions. That is theirs and theirs alone.

YOU (the person posting) have a moral and ethical responsibility, but individual "morals" and "ethics" depend in large part upon each individual's "worldview" and who they think THEY "answer to" for their actions, and what they say or do in response to their "feelings" on any given subject. As has been said many many times on the system:

In the absence of any accepted "absolute authority" that is OUTSIDE of the individual that has the right to determine what "right and wrong" are, then all morals and ethics become "relative" to the individual and NOT applicable to anyone other than the individual theirself.

Attempting to "impose" one's one chosen set of "morals and ethics" upon others who may not share the same set, is dictatorship and/or bullying others and NOT respectful of the "Right" of anyone else to hold their own differing set of "morals and ethics."

In a "community setting," some "authority" to set "rules" is given to the "governing" body and the community decides that "for the common good of all, we will all abide by those rules whether we personally agree or disagree with them."

That's not much different that choosing to believe that Adultery is immoral and and betrayal of a spouse is unethical. The person engaging in Adultery may not "share" that view, or ethics or morals pertaining to "right and wrong" behavior for Married persons.


In the case of this thread, the "authority" has spoken. If others don't like that, they don't have to like it. But the "authority" has the RIGHT to make that determination while the members do not. All members can do is speculate and make judgments based upon OPINION and not fact, since they do NOT have access to "reality" anymore than the "gang" who wanted to paint the "beer can toting" person as a drunk.

Now, the "beer can toting" person only has a responsibility for their actions that "might" harm someone else IF they hold a particular belief, such as a Christian belief to NOT abuse one's liberty in Christ by "flaunting" their beliefs before others who MAY think something is wrong BECAUSE they, too, are a believer in the same authority (i.e. eating meat that had been offered to idols).

This is very much more similar to the "gang" that tossed the adulterous woman in front of Jesus demanding that He "do something" (meaning kill her). The "authority" on sin, morals, and ethics, responded because He KNEW the TRUTH, "let him who is without their own sin cast the first stone."

NO ONE is "perfect," and no one is without the capacity to learn, grow, and even CHANGE. But that usually takes time, patience, endurance, and gently discussing "differences" of opinion that may remain. It's about LEADING rather than FORCING to achieve change.

Now, I can't wait to hear your reasons for posting this here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


God bless.
I'm thinking about a WS who perceives Plan B as the BS purposely trying to harm the WS.

Or someone who came from a dysfunctional family who now sets healthy boundaries, sometimes needing to say something to enforce those boundaries, and is perceived by those around as being %@&*$%.

How about the Christian who is with non-believers and needs to stand up for truth, knowing that it will be PERCEIVED as unloving?

How about the friend who loves you so much that they confront you about your affair? You have the "how dare they judge me" attitude.

How about the BS who is paralyzed from shock and cannot get back into reality until a friend (maybe an MB friend) talks directly and sharply to them to get them to focus and take steps that are necessary? The BS feels hurt and attacked.

These people's motives, actions, and words are perceived incorrectly. Does that mean that they should back down and not do what they know is right?

I believe that all they need to focus on is how GOD perceives their actions, words, and motives (obviously I am coming from a Christian worldview). Oftentimes, the right thing to do or say WILL be perceived as offensive.

Did Stephen offend those he spoke to right before being martyred? How many times did Jesus offend the Pharisees? He even turned the tables in the Temple because of His righteous anger. Paul offended so many that he was repeatedly put into jail.

If you don't want Biblical examples, how about the friend who takes his friends' keys because he's too drunk to drive? Or the friend who refuses to gossip? They will certainly be perceived incorrectly.

Or the friend who feels their buddy drinks too much, but doesn't say anything because he knows his buddy will get mad at him?

I can think of example after example of times when we must shed our worry about how we will be PERCEIVED because we love someone enough to tell the truth.
SMB - I know it's "just my opinion," but I think your post was RIGHT ON!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

At least that's how I perceived it!!!
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Empathy again.

2long maybe you should consider practicing empathy towards Christians since you think it is fine to say very blasphemous things quite often.

Blasphemy is another one of those things that's clearly in the eye of the beholder. I was a Christian, bk, though I'm not now. And yes, I believe I went through a period of antagonism 2ward my prior belief system, but though you may not believe that, that phase ended more than 20 years ago.

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How about the Christian who is with non-believers and needs to stand up for truth, knowing that it will be PERCEIVED as unloving?

How about the non-believer who is with Christians and needs 2 stand up for truth, knowing that it will be PERCEIVED as unloving? It really does work both ways.

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How about the BS who is paralyzed from shock and cannot get back into reality until a friend (maybe an MB friend) talks directly and sharply to them to get them to focus and take steps that are necessary? The BS feels hurt and attacked.

I remember those times well. I felt that way a lot after d-day and sporadically up 2 about 3 years after. But even back then, I also felt the real support come through with the 2x4s I thought I was getting at the time.

Then there's now. I honestly will say that I wouldn't dream of talking about my marriage here anymore. So, I must go.

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These people's motives, actions, and words are perceived incorrectly. Does that mean that they should back down and not do what they know is right?

Excellent point. I think they shouldn't back down. But they should be careful how they make their point. Not easy, perhaps, but very rewarding if successful.

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I believe that all they need to focus on is how GOD perceives their actions, words, and motives (obviously I am coming from a Christian worldview). Oftentimes, the right thing to do or say WILL be perceived as offensive.

This is perfectly fine, recognizing that there are other worldviews. Those other worldviewers have a similar "calling" 2 be mindful of ideas they don't share as well.

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I can think of example after example of times when we must shed our worry about how we will be PERCEIVED because we love someone enough to tell the truth.

Well stated.

-ol' 2long
Hi FH and SMB,

I was replying to BobP and might have lost my post but I will try to paste it here and reply to your thoughts later. Thanks! (and 'whew, it worked!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Hey Acey

Just bear in mind two things :

Hi Bob,

So glad you mentioned both (or all 3) concepts:

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For evil to thrive requires only that good men do nothing

If my presuming that you mean that those of us who refrain from posting on conflict threads are doing nothing, is not correct, please enlighten me.

I'll continue as if I'm correct.

It may appear that I am refraining from physical action because I am not actively posting on such threads, but that does not mean I am doing nothing. What you may not be able to see is my reading and searching and praying so I may better understand the issues at hand so that one day I might be able to be a part of the solution.

It's taken me nearly a year and I've learned much. Bob, you weren't around last January when (after only one week) I removed myself from the boards (after saying I needed to do some research on delayed exposure which I had misinterpreted from threads posted by you, WAT and Weaver/Josie). I did not post/lurk for the two weeks that I sought to educate myself. Did I participate in the mud-slinging, name-calling, momma-bashing that went on regarding the topic I was researching? I couldn't, I was in crisis and had the where-withall to remove myself.....and eventually, Dr. Harley and Mrs. Harley answered my questions in person on the radio for free within 2 weeks. I came back determined to learn all that I could so that one day, I might be able to contribute solutions.

Have I done nothing? Many have commented that I've contributed something to these forums, even posters on this thread have complimented me, which I appreciate. It's not the reason for this thread but it does encourage me to continue.

Is there more that I can do? Yup.....so that's why I started this thread, although I wish I had done so last week when I could post during the day. (I am bringing my laptop to work for a project so I might be able to sneak a peak now and then.)

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and

Peace is not merely the absence of active conflict.

I'm all for active conflict against the enemy ~~~> alien inhabitants, consistent trouble-makers, known trolls and agitators who thrive on stirring the pot with no apparent vested interest in helping and no empathy when challenged.

I'm trying to find a solution for what I (and apparently many others) see is eroding the help offered when attacks are made at the person, not the ideas the person is presenting.

I had tried to be a peacemaker early on one of the threads that disappeared. It obviously denigrated swiftly but I didn't see it after that. I can only assume that the dialog was not limited to 'active conflict regarding ideas' but I will never know.

TA and BR had active conflict regarding ideas and concepts that they eventually agreed to disagree upon on the Cheerleaders/Enablers/Controllers thread.

Were they passionate? YES.

Did they vehemently disagree with what the other was saying. YES.

Did they attack each other? NO! But there was much active conflict which did not evolve into active personal attacks as evidenced by the fact that it is still an unlocked (still helpful) thread that SS asked for yesterday. (She may be a newbie, but she has already inspired me to post this thread and continue aspiring to be an MB experienced poster one day....Thanks SS!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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Theres a lot of ad-hominem shouting which is a terrible waste of everyone's time, but there's also strongly-presented RIGHTEOUS opinion offered that can cut through fog.

I agree wholeheartedly with this as well, especially with the quote I've emphasized. I just disagree that we can cut through 'the fog' by cutting down each other when our fog-cutting methods disagree with anothers.

I realize that opinions will differ and some posters are more passionate than others. Plus, many of us who get unintentionally caught up in the fracus (like me with my delayed exposure issues last Jan.) have no clue what the basic issues are. But if we focus on attacking the source of the conflict and confusion (the enemy) and respect the person who may be in conflict or confusion, I think our strongly presented righteous opinions might help provide a solution rather than exacerbate the problems.

As mentioned earlier, BK and I supported Aph when she was thought to be a troll. I'm sure there was 'active conflict' regarding the time spent to help her, but in the end, she stuck it out and actually changed her POV on many thoughts and concepts. Do I agree with Aph's world view? Not from what I perceived. But I valued her as a person, even sent her a book (when no one else responded to her idea for a book exchange). She just posted an update a few days ago and I replied yesterday.

Since I've mentioned BK, I'll venture onto shakey ground and say that I could have been offended by what I perceived (even before Mark's post) to be an attempt to ridicule this thread title and even my attempt to seek a solution by posting this thread.

Did I react? I tried not to, but I did respond with respect....well I tried to, at least. Do I always agree with what BK posts? No. But nor do I attack him because I don't agree with his ideas or his presentation.

Does that make sense? Sorry that I have to post and run without editing typos, but I will check in tonight.....I hope! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for reading.

Ace
SMB - you make some good points.

The ability to validate is a relationship skill that can be crafted and practiced on these boards - Ace asks for an end to the war of words - the biting, sarcastic invalidating behavior exhibited on two threads that had to be removed because normally supportive veterans were attacking each other, marginalizing their contributions here by trying to tear down another's validity.

I nearly wrote a thread on the topic of how to develop validation skills. It's a communication art form that is so needed in real life and could go a long way to ending board wars.

Consider this challenge the next time there is a need to set someone straight. You used the example of Christians standing up to non-believers - and since I personally have been marginalized in a war of words over that topic to the point that I have considered minimizing my time here on marriage builders, even though I've been told that I have a lot to offer...

The challenge is to set someone straight without invalidating them as a person or the value of their contribution. The lazy way is to say: "You're WRONG and here's why - point by point". The difficult way is to say: That's an interesting POV. Here's how I would handle that situation." You have to think from a place of love and compassion, and edit yourself many times before clicking the "Ok, submit" button so that you know your intentions are validated by your words and actions here.

We have to put off the natural tendency to "react" instead of think-respond. Stephen Covey teaches about seeking to understand first, then to be understood, in his relationship portion of 7 Habits - where I believe Harley received his inspiration for the Love Bank concepts he developed for Marriage Builders.

I personally love the "ignore" button because it helps me avoid my "react" trigger, and just allow someone to be intentionally marginalizing and invalidating rather than try to "change or educate" them. As I said on one of the threads that got deleted, but bears repeating - trying to educate someone about rude behavior here is like trying to educate a wayward spouse - in both cases, we have an unreasonable expectation that our posts to educate make a difference to those who don't see/want to see their behavior as rude or untruthful.

Perhaps this strikes at the crux of the problem with trolls - perhaps it's time for vets to Plan B the troll and focus on delivering truth to those who seek it - newbies and hurting folks. They are asking to be educated - trolls are not.
SMB, I am not referring to how 'tough' Mel was with you and me....I agree with you that she showed she cared for both of us and we needed it and it helped us both. I'll always be grateful to Mel and others who were blunt with me.

I'm talking about the bickering between potential helpers on the hurting person's thread.

One solution would be to honor the hurting person by both parties at odds starting a new thread, which does happen often.

The second solution (IMHO) would be for all those involved to ATTACK the IDEAS and CONCEPTS, NOT the PERSON SHARING THEM...and yes, I am shouting!

Ace
KA & Ace,

I think you misunderstood what I was responding to. I didn't quote it, so I can see how you would. I was responding to Mark's question:

Do I have any responsibility for the way people react or respond to me.? In other words, do I have a moral or ethical responsibility for the way others perceive me or my actions?

I was not responding to the "war of the words" but whether it is our respondiblity (our fault) when we are perceived incorrectly.
FH,

But you see, you and I are in agreement as to who that absolute authority is. But this is even more basic than either your world view or mine.

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you are NOT responsible for other people's perceptions. That is theirs and theirs alone.
Picture an illusionist performing on stage. His intent is to make onlookers believe that something is happening that is not truly the case. What he does and says on stage is designed to provoke a certain reaction in his audience. He intends to mislead and misdirect in order to gain the admiration of his audience.

But suppose this "magician" began traveling around the country speaking about how black magic and the 'dark arts' are the way to power and authority in one's life. His claims now become that he really has magical powers.

Now assuming that "the Amazing Randy" and his institute is already on the case debunking this guy's magic do I need to point out that his world view is wrong, that he is a dangerous individual and no one should be following him as an example?

To save time here, my answer is that of course I do. My own conscience dictates that anyone who is leading others astray, away from the truth should be pointed out as a liar and a fraud. And BTW, this applies for me within the church and without.

But suppose I not only point out at every opportunity that he is a fraud but I begin traveling around attending his performances and standing up in the midst of his tricks to shout out at him that he is a fraud and disrupting his stage act. Soon, I become the center of attention for the media and those attending his performances and even begin to develop my own following of those who wish to live vicariously through me and tell this guy off in person...sort of.

Before long the police are called to an event and the building is cleared because the opposing sides have polarized totally, shouting is going on all the time and fistfights have broken out in the aisles. Eventually the fake is banned and to my little band I am the hero.

But now I change scenes and I am now driving along a country road and come across a traffic accident. A car load of teenagers has run off the road and has rolled down an embankment. I instinctively stop to help and as I approach the upside down vehicle the first person I see is the magician, who though not trained in medical procedures and who I certainly don't feel has any special powers, is trying to help one of the injured.

If I begin shouting at him and fighting with him and it diverts the help of the EMS and rescue guys that are arriving at the scene and prevents the injuries from being treated. Others have gathered and chosen up sides. Some are followers of the hoax and others are fans of mine. We have a huge shouting and shoving match going on and are inadvertently trampling over the rescue workers and the injured as well. The magician says something I don't like and I push him down the hill. One of the EMS personal says, "Hey. Wait! We have injured people here." and tries to get me to calm down. So I push him down the hill as well because it is my RIGHT to stand up to this guy who is harming others with his phony act.

Others jump to my defense and people are rolling down the hill in droves...

And while this is going on, the teenage driver of the car lies bleeding at the side of the road. and eventually expires.

Now some may see the magician as disruptive to the rescue effort and others might see me as the disruptive influence at the scene, but the net result is that someone died because the help they needed at the time they were in grave danger was diverted from helping them.

When I arrive at the scene I have to make a choice. I can stop to help or move on. But once I stop if my intent is to help the hurting, then that needs to be my focus.

And here is where we quickly get to a real dilemma...Eventually the magician tires of my presence and drives off with his followers, if any. and the kids get the help they need. I too drive away certain that I have helped if for no other reason than that I have run off the fake.

And two mile down the road is another traffic accident (it must be winter in the upper Midwest) and guess who was the first one to stop to help...

Now if I stop to help, my mere presence will create tension, but if I don't stop, someone might die because EMS is still cleaning up down the road. As I approach the car I see that the fake is trying to perform some trickery and claiming it will save the victim...As I stand there contemplating my move the rescue guys from the neighboring town arrive having gotten the call because the locals were busy at the first scene.

What do I do know?

If I walk away, someone might think this guy is for real. If I stay and fight another riot might break out. Some will be certain that he is what is wrong with the picture but some might see me as the problem. And if the victim dies, there will be more than enough blame to pass around.

I have no control over whether or not this guy shows up at every traffic accident in the county, but I do have control over what I do when I see him. And if I stop and try to drive him off, even though others are present who are better equipped than either of us to really help the victims, I will be seen by some as the bad guy. And some will be so offended that they will stop offering help and others will avoid seeking help because they know that one of us will attack the other at the next opportunity. If I stay and fight, do I have any responsibility for driving them away if they leave?

I have to go to work...I'll be back eventually.

This is getting more difficult to remain in the realm of hypothetical...

And FH, I am trying to do this without quoting scriptures because as you point out not all bow to that authority, though I am sure you and I are likely thinking along the same lines, though perhaps not arriving at the same conclusions. To be honest, I began with my conclusion and am attempting to build a case for it as I go.

Mark
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Clash of ideas is often needed and healthy for any progress to be made. But not the personal attacks. I was telling K that the Enabling/Controlling thread had numerous clashes of ideas. Yet it was likened to threads of yesteryear by seasoned veterans who posted with respect for both the ideas shared and the person sharing them.


Ace - I think what you may be talking about, or trying to get across, is perhaps easier to think about in terms of the current Political Posturing that is part of the Election Process.

What I am talking about is the "Policy of Personal Destruction." I think most Americans (and probably most people in all countries) are "fed up" with this sort of thing. What is "okay" is contending with differing or opposing IDEAS, but NOT a policy of trying to destroy the PERSON. One need to look no futher than the Clintons to see how a Policy of Personal Destruction is implemented with the goal of protecting the wielder of those actions from "scrutiny of their own actions."

The "arena of ideas" is for discussion of opposing viewpoints, etc., with the POSSIBILITY, not the guarantee, that opinions and beliefs MIGHT change through civil and rational discussion and debate. Like in the political areana, there will NEVER be 100% agreement.

That's also why a "Consensus of Opinion" does NOT make the given opinion automatically "right." "Right" is not determined by how many people might "line up" on one side or the other, but by FACTS, reality, and in the case of theology, faith, morals, and ethics, established by the ONE person who has the SOVEREIGN authority to determine what "right" is, and by opposition to what is thus right, what "wrong" is. That is why SIN is defined as "disobedience to GOD's will," not obedience or disobedience to any one human's will. That is why the act of eating the "apple" (forbidden fruit) was not the sin, it was the CHOICE to be disobedient to the Sovereign's authority to determine what "right and wrong" are, regardless of what might seem good or rational to mere humans. God did not create a race of beings to BE "gods," He created a race of beings to be servants in fellowship with Himself operating in love and self-restraint(choice) TO humbly obey His commands no matter what they might be feeling.

That same lack of "self-restraint," refusal to "explain ourselves," refusal to STAND for what God has commanded, etc. IS what leads to a "win at all costs because that's what I want" attitude, and it is displayed in the posting and in personal attacks bent on destroying the person rather than addressing and discussing IDEAS.

When we ourselves "do wrong," it IS our responsibility to repent, confess, and seek forgiveness, not to stubbornly and "stiff-neckedly" bury our head in the sand and continue on a destructive path.


God bless.
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How about the Christian who is with non-believers and needs to stand up for truth, knowing that it will be PERCEIVED as unloving?


How about the non-believer who is with Christians and needs 2 stand up for truth, knowing that it will be PERCEIVED as unloving? It really does work both ways.



I don't think I said it didn't work both ways. I, being a Christian, thought of my personal experiences. I would agree with you that it works both ways.




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How about the BS who is paralyzed from shock and cannot get back into reality until a friend (maybe an MB friend) talks directly and sharply to them to get them to focus and take steps that are necessary? The BS feels hurt and attacked.

I remember those times well. I felt that way a lot after d-day and sporadically up 2 about 3 years after. But even back then, I also felt the real support come through with the 2x4s I thought I was getting at the time.


Do I read you correctly here that you are saying that your real support came through what you, at the time, felt were 2X4s? Just not sure I understood exactly what you meant.

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These people's motives, actions, and words are perceived incorrectly. Does that mean that they should back down and not do what they know is right?

Excellent point. I think they shouldn't back down. But they should be careful how they make their point. Not easy, perhaps, but very rewarding if successful.

I agree.

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I believe that all they need to focus on is how GOD perceives their actions, words, and motives (obviously I am coming from a Christian worldview). Oftentimes, the right thing to do or say WILL be perceived as offensive.

This is perfectly fine, recognizing that there are other worldviews. Those other worldviewers have a similar "calling" 2 be mindful of ideas they don't share as well.

I would agree with you here,too, although I didn't intend for my post to be a religious debate. I used religious examples as well as non-religious.

I recognize that I am operating from a Christian world view. When I talk with non-believers, I understand where they are coming from. (I was there a little over a decade ago.) But I don't neglect my own personal world view and belief system. If I did, I would then be overly concerned about how I am perceived by man instead of my living God.
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Even when it rains, it won't rain forever...

Mark


At least not for more than 40 days and 40 nights anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm not going to have much time to devote to this today, so I might be scarce until later...I will read and try to keep up when I can, but won't have much time to post coherent replies so will have to let that wait.

Ace,

Just so you know, I am not ignoring you or your posts and replies. And I am sorry if I have T/J'd your thread. This is something about which I have strong opinions.

Mark
Mark,

Perceptions are in error every single day. You have responsibilities in some, but not in others. Those in which you have taken some action that results in harm that was a violation of some ethical, legal, or moral behavior, yes, you are responsible - your intent may or may not be relevant. When you are not violating ethical, legal, or moral boundaries, I don't think you bear responsibility for the perceptions of others.

One is regarding perceptions wherein you have absolutely no intention - and no control - over the other person's interpretation of the information. Nor, Do you necessarily even KNOW of their perception. You bear no responsibilty nor necessarily even KNOW of any such interpretation or perception on their part. That would be your alcoholic and worthless drunk example - simply stated, the other folks are just happening to see what they think they see, not what is real. An error on their part, not something the evidence would support if the truth were known.

In another situation, where someone is offended by your actions or words, and you intended none, you MIGHT bear responsibilty:

For example, if you caused a car accident for failure to yield the right of way. You did not INTEND the harm - by your own action, but did so anyway, resulting in the offense. You do bear responsibility, and compensation to the offended party.

Or, you said something to another person intending for that comment to remain private, but it does not. That comment becomes known to a party that is hurt by the comment, unintentionally on your part (this happens all the time). Your intentions were not to hurt another person, although it did happen. You are responsible for an apology and your remarks in the first place.

So, yes and no, intention matters - sometimes. Sometimes we might be responsible for perception, because sometimes perception is reality. Sometimes, perception is NOT reality.
FH -

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At least not for more than 40 days and 40 nights anyway!

Several years ago back in Oregon, it rained for 30 some days straight. I'm talking about rain, not the normal 9 months of drizzle in the Pacific NW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Ace,

Just so you know, I am not ignoring you or your posts and replies. And I am sorry if I have T/J'd your thread. This is something about which I have strong opinions.

Mark

Mark (and SMB and SB and HB and FH and KA and 2 Long any anyone else reading)

It's all gooooood....TJ away. I'm not able to post anything indepth now either but I'm intrigued by the civil discussion. (I'm not shouting anymore either cuz I'm at work and have no time.)

FH, I will re-read your post and may not have the full scope of your message, but after briefly scanning it, I think you're explaining part of my frustration. I agree that none of us will ever be 100% in agreement, but at least we can be civil and decent and respectful to each other when we disagree on ideas. That's my point.

Thanks,

Ace
I did just add in my link in my sig line either this morning or last night. (With little kids on vacation it all blurs together. They are a handful all right, full of energy and just silly!)
Sorry Heart, my net went down before I could find the info you were asking about. I have seen it at least one other time, but here is one place.

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Mama Bear - I know someone else suggested this once, and I just need to bring it up again - is there ANY chance that you are being stalked by the OW in your sitch??

It is just so creepy the way you have been singled out. I have never seen anything like it on here before.
You have been very firm in requesting that this person not post to you ,and yet it still keeps happening.

and then this line:
"Take it easy. By the way, Happy New Year to you, tst, and the kids. "

that is just creepy. You have just told this person to leave you alone, and yet they wish happy new year to you, H and kids??? I'm sorry - but that is clearly stalking behavior.

This sicko did not bother to wish Mimi a happy new year....or MEDC. why have you been singled out?

I have worried all along that the OW is somehow involved here, and my radar is still up.


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tst and I already considered this and checked with Justuss. This person does not live in our state. It's just the ridiculous online hassle. I sure am glad I wasn't dumb enough to give this person my email when he asked for (because that was the only way he would share his story with me).
~SexyMamaBear

Later it was discussed whether this person could simply disguising their IP address. Who knows?

But even if you have only seen a small part of what they have been trying to do here, it is past strange and well into sinister.

No normal person would do all the things this plethora of characters has done.

If you would like firsthand accounts, ask SexyMamaBear, TST, Schoolbus, and Orchid. There may be others that I don't know about, but that is a good start.
Even with all that, the injured members themselves have offered olive branches, which have been either ignored, or acknowledged with a non-apology.

I would have been the first to believe "it is never too late to start over", but in this case the individual in question may be fast approaching that point.
Woops, posted to the wrong thread. Well, you can see what happens when I try to multitask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ok, not deleting since there has been a lot of abuse of that lately, and I don't want to give the wrong impression, lol, but am going to copy these posts to where they belong.
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Even with all that, the injured members themselves have offered olive branches, which have been either ignored, or acknowledged with a non-apology.

I would have been the first to believe "it is never too late to start over", but in this case the individual in question may be fast approaching that point.

The olive branches have been rejected, ignored or acknowledged with a non-apology because the minute "BA" does the right thing, the gig is up. It's no more FUN (in a sick twisted way) for BA.

BA would have to shed its skin and be EXPOSED and ACCOUNTABLE.
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those of us who refrain from posting on conflict threads are doing nothing, is not correct, please enlighten me.

Hi Acey.

No I mean that those who feel strongly about a situation on MB they consider to be unrighteous should comment if they wish. No compulsion or guidance as to how to post. Just my opinion.

Without that, the MB boards will become a nice,pc, sympathetic place for everyone to be and no dayum use to any of us.

If something chafes another posters pants but not yours, jus' ignore it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's what I do
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What I am driving at here is that we ARE responsible for how others see us, perceive us or respond to what we say or do. And when we accidentally cause harm to someone, we should take responsibility for it and attempt to make amends.

I disagree with your opinion.
BK,

OK...

Mark
I also disagree that we are responsible for the perceptions of others.

Perception is NOT reality.

Feelings CAN be wrong.


Just because someone has hurt feelings because they PERCEIVED that I did something, in no way makes me to blame for their pain - if the facts of the case are that I did NOTHING to hurt them.

Not in any way, shape, or form.


SB
Hi there,

Happy New Year everyone. Here is something I posted on another thread, and I thought it might be relevant here too.

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The single most important MB lesson I learnt was the importance of respectful communication. Both self-respect and respect for others. These are ultimately two sides to the same coin. Once I really understood this deep down, my M began to turn around.

Practising self-respect, I could no longer tolerate DJs, AOs, or in fact any other LB. Practising respect of others, I could no longer disrespectfully judge H. That included judging him as unable to cope with the truth of my feelings or needs. I had to be radically honest, and respect his ability to cope.
This is Plan A.

We had no need for Plan B, but if we had, it is also all about respect. Plan B says "I respect you too much to try to change you. It is too painful for me to remain while you act in this way, so I am taking responsibility for my life and choosing to not contact you."

Incorporating MB lessons into my life has been the best way for me to avoid fruitless conflicts in every area of my life. Its not that I have less conflict. I actually have more. But its fruitful conflict. Direct, honest and respectful conflict that leads to some sort of a resolution, or at least an understanding.

Living the MB methods is IMO the best way to teach others about them. We learn by observing, not by listening to words alone.

* i used to be called smur*
SB,

Though I guess I didn't state it right, my point was that we did do harm to them though not intentionally. While feelings and perceptions are transient, that does not make them unreal to the person who is having those feelings or perceptions.

It isn't that someone simply thought I hurt them, they were hurt by my actions or words because they misinterpreted my intent or meaning. Isn't it my responsibility to attempt to clarify my words so that they do not take offense where none was intended? Or should I just tell them that they are wrong in the way they feel about what I did or said and let it remain their problem? Or should I just try to justify my position and be done with it?

Or should I then intentionally attempt to hurt them and/or their feelings further by calling them stupid for not understanding me properly? Am I justified in doing that?

And what if someone else jumps to their defense, am I then justified in shifting my wrath to them by alluding to what I perceive them to be saying or doing, though I know nothing more of their intent than the person who was offended knew of my intent in the first place?

Mark
Ace, Mark & Smu,

Ace, thanks for starting this thread. It is moving along well with for the most part, civilized comments we can read, agree or disagree but still respect. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mark, awesome illustrations. Like the illusionist and the accident. Wow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You presented it in a 3rd party aspect so even if some wanted to take offense it would have been difficult. I like your style of helping us learn. Good job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I know it is ok to disagree. How one chooses to do so is important. Whether I like you or not should not be noticeable here. If you post something that can help me, I will give it a read. My personal stance is to take the good and discard the bad. I have seen good and bad posts from everyone here. Some just more than others. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So when I read your posts this morning, I thought about respect. That is the tie that binds our posting style with the truth and our perception. Respect lets us post what we need to say without being offensive.

This evening, when I read Smu's quote, it hit home. It was put quite nicely. I would like to thank Smu for giving us those wise words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So I am weary of that 'war of words'. Personally, I am posting less and focusing on helping those I can. It hurts my heart to see good people try to make some good points in a sincere effort to get back on track and then and get stomped on.

For those who like to 'tell it like it is'...... you can but where's your tact? If that's the way you post to total strangers...... it sure makes some of us wonder how you treat those you really care about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Of course it's not our business how you treat the ones you love, but it still makes us wonder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now where's that thread from BR about 'you want t/b right or b married?' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.
Orchid,

I can live with disagreement...

I even like to argue...(respectfully, of course) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If two of us are exactly alike, one of us is redundant...

I wonder what the doctor is thinking about all of this some times.

Dr H posted to a normal everyday thread today, in case you missed it. It's over in the After Divorce:Dating/Relationships forum.

It actually felt good to hear him reinforce what regulars were telling the original poster. Way cool! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



I recall a joke about misunderstanding what is being communicated:

A woman from the old country goes to the doctor for a checkup. She returns home with her clothes ripped, her hair a mess and bruises on her face and arms. Her husband looks at her says, "My God woman..What happened to you?"

"well" she says "I went for my checkup at the doctor today and when it got to my turn to check in at the desk I gave this young thing my name.

"She picked up this piece of paper and asked 'Did you bring a specimen?' And what is a specimen? I asked"

"The b*tch said 'P!ss in a bottle' and I said 'Spit in the ocean!' and the fight was on..."


Smu,

Brilliant observation, BTW.

I was at work when I was posting right after that and was in sort of a rush to post my thoughts before someone changed the subject on me (which happens at work a lot) and, well...I was being lazy and just wanted to be sure I had time to post what I wanted to say...


But it was pretty darned good, IMO.

Mark
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If something chafes another posters pants but not yours, jus' ignore it.

You're right, Bob and for the most part, I do ignore it. In fact some may even think I'm too nice cuz I ignore it. But I shouted this morning so now maybe I have it out of my system. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Great topic, Mark...looking forward to more comments.

Thanks,
Ace
Acie,

I know this thread is now 5 pages long. I thought I would respond to your first post. Yes, I am tired of the war of words, the DJ's thrown around, and insults and name calling.

It is one of the reasons I am weening myself off of this site.

I thought I might offer a few thoughts as I actually saw one poster ask another poster "how many marriages he had saved on this site." I just shook my head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W pointed out that Steve Harley thinks of himself as a sales man. IN this case someone that sells people on the idea that their marriage can be saved and made better if the tools on this site are applied. I liked that.

Here is why? I can say with absolute certainty that I HAVE NEVER SAVED A MARRIAGE OTHER THAN MY OWN. I may have helped a few people see things differently but the ONLY PEOPLE WHO SAVE A MARRIAGE are the people in the marriage. Anyone who really thinks differently is really being arrogant and I seem to be seeing a lot of that lately.

Folks, this board is for discussion, it is for helping people both WS and BS to come to the idea that their marriage just might be saved when they feel all is lost. It is to supply them with ideas, show them experiences, tell them of other stories like them, and show them to them.

Now here is the part that is driving me crazy and off the boards. If I were the best poster on this site (I'm not), I would still encounter people that just don't "get" what I am saying. The strength of this site is people get to hear many views of the same thing, similar experiences with different twists and details. I try not to point to other posts on a thread unless I feel they are good, because I want the reader to get many points of view and choose the one that makes the most sense to them in saving their marriage. IT IS THEIR CHOICE AFTER ALL.

THis leads me to the issue of trolls. They have always been here. Some come and spin very heart wrenching stories and many people respond and post and spend a lot of time with them. I have done so more times than I can count.

I don't worry about them. Why? Because other people read these threads, people that don't post here, and perhaps some thing I or others say might help them. WHo knows. Eventually we all figure out that no progress is being made, and that something smells fishy and we gradually leave. AND SO DO THE TROLLS.

The other type is more representative of one on the site now. My question is why waste time with them? Let them post. Here is the one thing you MUST remember. People coming here for help need to decide for themselves what posting style, what insight, helps them. We cannot decide that for them. They will eventually figure out that the troll is NOT helping them and the troll is now marginallized. Please trust people who post here to figure out what they need, what helps them, and what does not. It is for them to decide, not us.

I beleive if more of this were to happen the troll issue would fade, and energy and focus would go back toward helping people...if we can.

Day in and day out, our best advice is to read the articles, read Dr. Harley's and other's books and seek counceling with a pro-marriage counselor. What we can do is help interpret what they read via our experiences.

People have been discussing how the board has changed. It has because of the volume of posters now. In other ways it has not. But, if you were to search the archives for the initials IMHO, you would find that term used a lot more in the old days than now. In My Humble Opinion is something we need to remember and use. The use of this term has diminished greatly and because of that the board is poorer.

Our "humble opinions" should be used much more, that trying to take another poster to task because we don't agree with them. Folks, use your "humble" opinions to help people, and trust that they will find their "truth" via the variety of opinions, ideas, thoughts, and suggestions offered to them. Recognize that only they can heal their marriages via their commitment, hopefully new knowledge and perspectives, and if they are religious via their religious teachings.

I think that if people would recognize these things, the "good old days" would be now.

God Bless,

JL
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It is one of the reasons I am weening myself off of this site.

Hey JL. Wanna go with me 2 Australia? We could use WAT's boat.

We'd have 2 take him 2, of course, because he would know the difference between port and starboard.

I tried Mad Magazine's method, but I remain confused:

"'Port' has 4 letters, like 'left', so 'port' is the 'left' side of the boat.

'Starboard is the other side of the boat. And since there are only 2 sides of the boat and we've already discussed one of them, then the other one is left. So, 'starboard' is the 'left' side of the boat."

-ol' 2long
JL,

Hope this doesn't jinx your post but I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate what you wrote.

A lot of what happened, has happened before. Maybe to a different degree but the same kind of thing. Still MB survived.

Not many have spoken for in behalf of the 'silent majority' of readers who do read this site on a regular basis and for many the suggestions posted here have helped.

For those same ones and others to see unnecessary dissension is sad. ;( What needs to show is a spirit of cooperation as to the general mission or goal of MB. Personal recovery is achievable by all and M recover is possible when the Ws/Xws decide to return and show they are a valuable family member.

We can all approach those goals from different perspective, angles & POVs. Healthy constructive criticism has been helpful in the past but the rude, caustic comments are never helpful.

Looks like I rambled more than I meant to, sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Just wanted to say thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mahalo,
L.
Yes, I would just like to ditto Orchid's thanks - I appreciate your comments, JL, which IMHO really hit the mark.

One of the things that strikes me about posters who are in conflict with each other is the DJs. This is something Dr. Harley stresses is vital to eradicate from a marriage, if the marriage is to become what it should be - but this concept seems to bypass many posters when they are dealing with each other. I think that if all posters were to practice the discipline of refraining from Disrespectful Judgements, the discussions on this board would not descend into such animosity. For me, I think this is the main difference between the board 5 years ago, and the board today....I think 5 years ago, posters had taken on board (no pun intended) this Harley concept to a much a greater degree. It is hard for me to see how posters who are disrespectful to each other can successfully coach a person who's marriage is failing in recovering their marriage, when being able to refrain from DJs and learning how to negotiate with respect for the other person's point of view is one of the skills which is so vital in building a successful marriage.

There is also this fine line to walk between having a sense of humour about things, venting when needing to, and being sarcastic in a way that some posters might feel can be offensive.

I see a lot of this conflict as a symptom of the way people relate to each other, and perhaps it is a good thing to talk through some of these issues.

I also think the board is going through some upheavals - I don't think it is a bad thing that some of the "oldtimers" are going - for some people I think it is probably the healthy thing for them to do for themselves and their own marriage. We all know how addicting the internet, internet discussions, and an internet community can be. I think that in general terms, on the internet as a whole, people are starting to learn that there has to be a balance between what they do on the internet and the attention they pay to life "off the net". Perhaps some of the oldtimers are at a point in their lives where they are "rejigging" this balance...and I think that is a sign of the healthiness of their lives now.

In my case, I have been a member since 2002. I would not say that my marriage has recovered. However, I am still married. This is one of the reasons I have watched the discussion of K's marriage. I choose to stay married, as does my H. Perhaps we are both choosing to stay in a marriage which does not meet the emotional needs of either of us. I don't deny that. It may be that our bad marriage is not so bad that it is unbearable for most of the time, although it feels unbearable for some of the time, and/or it is a lot less bad than the alternative which divorce would bring. I am sure there are many people who come to these boards who do not recover their marriage the "Harley" way, and I am sure that by and large, they stop posting, as they do not feel they are a "success story" - nevertheless, they are there. I think JL is absolutely right that the only people who can save a marriage are the two people in the marriage themselves, and it takes both of them to do it. One can start the process. One cannot finish the job. Both have to dedicate themselves together to recovering their relationship, and consciously making it their no. 1 priority, in order for successful recovery to happen. IMO, that is why our marriage is not "recovered" although we are still married.

I am in a different emotional place than I was when I came here in 2002. At the time, my marriage problems seemed simple - that is not the case now. I think once your marriage falls apart, you start realizing how complex it is when you try to put it back together. For me this has been a difficult process and I am grateful to Dr. Harley and MB for helping me to define the aspects of a good relationship. I have finally found an IC who I feel safe working with. There were a lot of people here at MB who helped me when I first found MB - Estes49, Orchid, Pepperband, you, and Still Seeking. I am very grateful to Still Seeking for continuing to encourage me to "walk in the light" - that is what he has done for me and that is what my thread here is for me. I think it is with his help that I have found some of the help I need "off the net". A lot of the people who come here are incredibly vulnerable and more desperate than they have every been in their lives, and they expose themselves to scrutiny in a way that can be healing and helpful, but can also potentially be very damaging and dangerous. I am very cautious now about what I say here. I do not reveal everything that I am feeling, or everything that others in my life do, or have done. That is not because I am trying to be deceptive to the people on the forum who are trying to help me, but because I don't feel that public exposure here is the place for some of the things I have to deal with. I don't think that is an unhealthy choice for me to have made. I also do not feel that my thread is a "blog" - it is not a place for me to indulge in a daily diary of all my thoughts and feelings - at this point in my life, that would be an unhealthy use of my time and also of the attention of StillSeeking. My thread is a conversation, not exclusively with StillSeeking, not necessarily daily, on "walking in the light", for which I am very grateful.

One of the things that I am mindful of is that my H still does not know that I post here. Nevertheless, I do feel that I would not like to post anything I would feel uncomfortable with him reading. I have told my H about this site, I have printed things out for him to read, which he did read, I have also told his two best friends that I found this site and found it extremely helpful. If my H wanted to come to this site and find me here, he probably could. I do not tell him specifically that I post here because I am afraid of his reaction. My fear is a valid one. I am not ready to risk that yet. This brings me back to the conflict on the boards. At the present time, I don't feel this board is a healthy space for my H, the FWS. I would like it if he did come here, and if he did come here anonymously, I am sure he would get a lot of the right kind of advice. But I am afraid he would also get a lot of DJs, which would have a very negative effect on him and not help us to recover our marriage. That is the biggest change I see in the past 5 years. Five years ago, I would have felt more comfortable about my H receiving the kind of help a WS needs to recover the marriage. Now I am not so sure....I know from my experience with my H that DJs simply cement the WS sense of entitlement....that is why DJs to WS from posters here are very destructive to recovery. JMHO.
JL, excellent post!

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I thought I might offer a few thoughts as I actually saw one poster ask another poster "how many marriages he had saved on this site." I just shook my head


I read that too. Pretty arrogant, huh?

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The strength of this site is people get to hear many views of the same thing, similar experiences with different twists and details. I try not to point to other posts on a thread unless I feel they are good, because I want the reader to get many points of view and choose the one that makes the most sense to them in saving their marriage. IT IS THEIR CHOICE AFTER ALL.


Agreed. The Troll Police and self-dubbed Savers of Marriages seem to feel some sort of ownership over this board, entitling them to use whatever means necessary to rid MB Land of trolls.

The name-calling, the attacks, the accusations of being morally bankrupt simply because someone doesn't agree with their viewpoint and the attempts to dominate MB and do their best to control any controversial discussion with "The Truth". Often I agree with their views, but find their methods abhorrent.

Trolls are not the problem. MB regulars are, reasoning that they are protecting a Newbie from getting bad advice to justify rudeness, personal attacks and generally childish behavior - it is bullying and controlling, IMO). Newbies aren't brainless.

If someone sees a Newbie receiving what they consider to be bad advice, isn't it also an option simply to post an opposing view without the attack?

What I really find to be a shame is that it is exactly this type of behavior has led many posters who contributed very valuable information and guidance to choose to leave MB.
Thank you Jl, 2Long, Orchid, and F4L,

(2long...thanks for giving me a way to remember which side of the boat is which <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> )

I was just about to change the title of this thread but I think I'll just insert the threadjack subject (Thanks Mark) as a subtitle so we can keep discussing both.

JL, Orchid, F4L......your posts are very much appreciated and actually validates Marks self-admitted threadjack.

Emphasizing IMHO would be one little mindset that could change the entire tone of a concept, post, thread, forum and, quite possibly someone's R and M. It could alter the perception of the person hearing that mindset in many ways.

Just tweaking the "I think" to "My humble opinion is" seems that it might make the receiving person less defensive and more accepting of a new idea that could be helpful.

Again, thank you.

Acie (Thanks for the new spelling, JL)
Frozen....we were simluposting....thanks for your thoughts....now off to change the title.

Acie (I like that!)
I used to try to offer my experience as a FWS to newly arrived BSs. I don't do it now. I think it is kind of pointless really. My situation isn't theirs and many are just in too much pain and I don't want to add to their misery.

My advice to the newly arrived is to read Dr. Harley's books. Read his articles. Make an appointment and call for counseling. Do not bet the future of your marriage on the advice of people hanging out in a discussion forum. Sometimes you do get what you pay for. (This applies to my opinion as well).

Yes the tone of the board appears to have changed, but I think it has to do more with the massive number of postings from a self-elected MB cabal than it does with the postings of the vast majority. Most here are still helpful, civilized, and a credit to their parents for raising them with manners. The others . . . well . . . the ignore feature works wonders.
As a newbie what makes me weary is that it seems that there is a daily occurrence of someone (usually a vet, but also many FWS) that decides to leave out of frustration. I have been getting what I deem as good advice here but more importantly I get that emotional support that only those who have suffered thought it understand (That it be a BS,Ws, FBS or FWS). Sometime we are looking for someone to just tell us that no matter what things will be OK.

I am the only one responsible for the interpretation of what someone suggests. The MB way is a narrow path, but everyone here had their own experience and can bring value in their own way. This includes WS and FWS as they bring insight into the fog. I have found that I get as much help from them as I do from FBS.

What I do with the information I gather here is for me to decide what to do with. If I question what is suggested, It is for me to seek clarification, and then to decide if the information is to be acted upon.

I implore those who are considering leaving to reconsider. We newbies are still in crisis mode and look at you for guidance. The best piece of advice and guidance I got here is when a seasoned vet suggested it was time to call the Harley's. He put his ego aside and directed me to the professionals. It was a turning point in my journey and will always appreciate this person’s help (Which he is still giving now).
JL, 2L, Frozen, F4L, CN...

Thank you. This is what I was hoping for with all my low level inflammatory drivel.

Ace...I really didn't think what I was saying was a different subject at all. I was attempting to get others to think (or at least consider) what the implications of words can be, just like actions which always have consequences. What we have here is unintended consequences that then become the focus with one side defending them and the other side defending against them.

But that, like JL said, is JMHO.

I find it interesting that much of what I said has not gotten me flamed. Perhaps it was the way I said it...(doubt that seriously) or maybe the flamers are busy elsewhere...or maybe if we SHOUTED at each other and called each other names they'd arrive in droves.

I'm late for work...again...

Mark
TMTS,

Didn't mean to slight you, BTW. Just didn't see your post as I was typing while you were uploading...

Mark
Well JL, insists he isn't the *best poster* on the forum and I'll accept that, but I fail to see anyone better.

As some have said, the board cycles up and down, and that is very true. There is one thing that is indisputable as far as I can tell, and that is I don't believe there has ever before been as many threads and posts edited by mods.

I heard a rumor that the last few months of threads were going to be the basis for a screenplay of a movie sequel, "Redacted II - The Battle for Control of the MB Forum"...

Anyway, I've been fortunate not to have been censored(at least as far as I know), but that's a pretty large group. There seems to be a core group that gets redacted quite regularly and I think a little self-reflection might be in order...

Opinions here tend to be strongly-held and everyone has one or two, so some conflict is inevitable, however, fighting is not.

As the laws concerning internet liabilities start to coalesce, posters should be more reflective before hitting the submit button.

From my perspective over 8+ years, the board has changed in one significant way. The constitution of the forum membership must be at least 50-75 percent post-doc psychologists, sociologists as well as some MDs. There is much more insistent diagnosis of psychoses, neuroses and medical ailments(along with suggested treatment/drug options) than I've ever seen before.

The *real* professionals in the above fields would never, ever attempt a diagnosis based on postings in an internet forum. That doesn't seem to stop people here from doing it.

Forget the trolls, substituting "old-timers", "mid-timers" or newbies for true, trained and certified professionals has the greatest potential for heartbreak and/or disaster of anything here. IMHO, of course.
Hey Mark,

You said:

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Just so you know, I am not ignoring you or your posts and replies. And I am sorry if I have T/J'd your thread. This is something about which I have strong opinions.

I said:

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It's all gooooood....TJ away.

Now you say:

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Ace...I really didn't think what I was saying was a different subject at all.


Is it a TJ (and therefore requiring amends) if no actual TJ occurred?

Or did you perceive that I might be upset that you commandeered the discussion while I was at work and can't post?

Is it a TJ if the discussion is related to the actual subject at hand?

Should I be responsible if I perceive that you did indeed TJ my thread, apologize, and then deny you actually committed that for which you apologized?


Well...I have one thing to say to you, Mark....

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V


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V


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...............thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I also agree with this comment.....sorta:

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Thank you. This is what I was hoping for with all my low level inflammatory drivel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad for the discussion, too but would hardly use such words to describe your 'non-vebose tack'.


JMVHO.....FWIW (for what it's worth) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ace
Heartpain,

Bravo! Well said!

I liked the part about JL, too.

Mark
Thanks, Heartpain,

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The *real* professionals in the above fields would never, ever attempt a diagnosis based on postings in an internet forum. That doesn't seem to stop people here from doing it.

Forget the trolls, substituting "old-timers", "mid-timers" or newbies for true, trained and certified professionals has the greatest potential for heartbreak and/or disaster of anything here. IMHO, of course.

I appreciate hearing this because it validates what I did when I first registered.....left the forums to seek professional advice. Then we got one of the best MC's and started our true recovery.

When we've had bumps in the road, I've indicated that I had a challenge but would not post about it until after we saw our MC whether it be a few days or even a week. Some posters wondered about that, but your post explains exactly why it's working for us.

While I'm sad for whatever happened with SMB and tst, they are being helped by a real professional in Jennifer HC. My concern is for those who are not able to get into MC for whatever reason.

Again, IMVHO, your post speaks to one of the most important directions we should be steering newbies.....get pro MC or IC help first (if possible) and then vent here for support.

If MC/IC is not possible immediately, read, study, seek everything on this web site before posting your story.

Thanks, HP,

Ace
Hi Ace.

I wonder how many have considered that those who regularly engage in the "War of Words" that you are talking about really don't like it much when someone gives them a little of their own "style" back to them?

I guess one question remains that will sort of always remain: how much "turning the other cheek" simply enables the "other cheek" and other people's "cheeks" to continue getting slapped? When does "silence" connote "consent?" When does Openness and Honesty apply to everyone, especially when they offer up controversial opinions without any underlying explanation of why they hold whatever opinion they want to push on others?

Perhaps it's simply that everyone brings a "set of beliefs" with them to MB and there is no "one set of beliefs" that is applicable to all, nor is there "one set of beliefs" that can get along with all other "sets of beliefs," especially when some bring a "set of beliefs" that they believe "allows" them to attack and post DJ's whenever they feel like it.

The "problem" (i.e. the War of Words you are talking about) perhaps lies in the area where some will simply say "enough is enough" and will, for a while, "give back" a little of the same. It's not to say that such a choice is "right," but it is "human." But since that's a "forced posture," it can't be sustained over time so they "leave" or markedly "reduce" their posting rather than continue to subject theirself to continuing "angst."

MB concepts are not "THE" answer, but they do provide a framework and a plan to "rescue" some from the devastation of a marriage in shambles. They do, hopefully, get people "thinking" about their marriage rather than just blithely hoping that "all will be well." It's pretty rare to have a "positive outcome" in anything if you don't understand the "parts" of and the "dynamics" of what makes "people tick" and what makes a marriage WORK. That's pretty much the idea behind the concept that "if you don't have a target, you are sure to hit it." It actually does take a target (goal) in order to have a "way," a "plan," a "process" that will maximize the possibility of actually hitting the intended target.

EN's by themselves are not the "sole" answer either. What "works" in one marriage does not always mean it will work in another marriage. Neither are EN's the same or in the same order in all marriages. Probably the most "volatile" of the EN's is SF and the needs of each person varies greatly in that area. It was just that sort of thing that really "tripped my trigger" when K started getting attacked for his marriage and for even staying in his marriage because others decided that THEY wouldn't, or couldn't, be in a marriage that wasn't meeting the SF need the way THEY would want it met. It wasn't long after that that he became a target of "why do you even bother to post anyone, you don't have anything of value to say because of state of your marriage."

In my humble opinion, that is part of the "War of Words" problem when members start to "project" their way of doing things as what someone else "must do" rather than explaining why they think it might be important and offer it as something for the recipient to consider and "accept or reject" for themselves depending on their own situation and "where they are in the process" of trying to "fix" their marriage.

Weary? You don't know the half of it. It is my hope that the system authorities will find a way to but some "brakes" on the posting and the "War of Words." I know some of that has been attempted already with some editing, but I'm talking about fundamental "rules" changes that we all "abide by" or don't post.

A diverse "community" is what MB will always be, so I'm hoping it will be like some "community rules" that "enforce" some behavior, just like traffic laws, etc.
I didn't read this post..

but if people are declaring war

I would like to declare war on the term VETS...

and shove it up people's tiny hineys.....

ARKIE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
What about "oldtimers"??? Some of us ain't that decrepit yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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What about "oldtimers"??? Some of us ain't that decrepit yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
YES!! You are so RIGHT, there...uh....there....uh...star...star*gazer, yeah that's it...and further more..uh...I would say...uhhh.....I forgot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Good points, FH. I can't respond yet but will later.

Hi Ark,

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I would like to declare war on the term VETS...

When I first registered and saw a callout for an Vet or Pro, I actually thought that there were military veterans or professional counselors assigned to help. I'm with you....it would be nice if we could find a better term for experienced or educated or compassionate (or whatever) MB posters.

Do you have a better word to use? Heartpain said 'old-timers' and 'mid-timers' and 'newbies' but I wonder about them, too. Once again, we get into perceptions......what do we want new or old posters to perceive in the terms we choose to describe them? Or should we assign a term or label at all?

Ace
I don't understand why the term is needed at all...

I think that every one brings value here regardless of what the counter says...

truth is I could have gazillion posts behind my name...and I could have a gazillion post full of crap...right now my numbers are off....

due to the following....

atleast over a hundred of my posts are about what a crack house I think Texas is...

50 deal with pasties...

50 are probably comparing wat justlearning 2long and bobpure to montypython members....

TWO were deleted because of melodylane...and I am still holding a grudge...

five are reminding medc I am NOT NOT NOT NOT a boy....

28 are to mimi telling her to quit being so emotional and to quit slobbering on the screen...

some are calling starfish old...

some are calling oldole2long....

and what about the fact that I can't post ONE post without a million typos leading to a million edits...those edits really skew the numbers....

let not forget to count the multitude of posts to pepperband setting her straight...

and 4,323 NOT telling what the ^^ really mean after ARK^^

so that leaves about may be 5-6 good posts under my belt...

the rest

CRAPPOLA

I did not serve
and I do not treat livestock and puppys and kittens...

I am not a VET....

numbers behind a name..

minutia....it's the words they type...

ARKIE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!
Hey, I want a tiny-hiney!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Because I can't cure the animal kingdom...

and I've never fired a gun...

But I've been dogged about Recovery...and declared war on infidelity...soldiered on, even...

Have no idea for a name but our own...and the word help. Seems to work for me...

LA
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Do you have a better word to use? Heartpain said 'old-timers' and 'mid-timers' and 'newbies' but I wonder about them, too. Once again, we get into perceptions......what do we want new or old posters to perceive in the terms we choose to describe them? Or should we assign a term or label at all?

No label would be best, but if we must assign labels, allow me 2 offer the following

Since we're not professionals, as HP pointed out:

Less than 2 years on MB: The Unwashed.
More than 2 years on MB: The GREAT Unwashed.

whadaya think? Respond quickly, because basically I'm just dropping in on my way 2 Australia.

-ol' 2long
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have no idea for a name but our own...and the word help. Seems to work for me...

LA, 'Help' works for me, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Arkie wrote:
due to the following....

- atleast over a hundred of my posts are about what a crack house I think Texas is...

- 50 deal with pasties...

- 50 are probably comparing wat justlearning 2long and bobpure to montypython members....

- TWO were deleted because of melodylane...and I am still holding a grudge...

- five are reminding medc I am NOT NOT NOT NOT a boy....

- 28 are to mimi telling her to quit being so emotional and to quit slobbering on the screen...

- some are calling starfish old...

- some are calling oldole2long....

I'm hurt and a bit jelly. I didn't get honorable mention for any bogus Ark posts.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
2long...we were simulposting.

Have fun in Oz land! Are you doing MB withdrawal cold turkey?
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I'm hurt and a bit jelly. I didn't get honorable mention for any bogus Ark posts.

Hey Jo, if ya shoot me an email I'll give ya bogus Ace posts.

(Don't wanna post it cuz I don't want to risk getting this thread locked as we near or surpass 100 posts!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Ace:

People are getting the wrong idea about Australia and what it means 2 me.

It's more like the over-the-rainbow Oz, or Never - never - land, than an ac2al place.

One thing "my" Australia has, though (like James Garner's Australia in Support Your Local Sheriff), is NO INTERNET ACCESS, thus enabling me 2 wean my sorry beautox off these nutjob boards! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long
exit, stage left (Snagglepuss, personal communication)
hmmmmmmmmmmmm

resilient....

what about the belly dancing threads with you me terrified lor and orchid...those should really not count for squat..

trying to get that girl to do something was really something....

(terrified if you are lurking you KNOW you should come out and say hallooooo....)

ARKie
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atleast over a hundred of my posts are about what a crack house I think Texas is...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> No wonder you were edited! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You were trash talkin TEXAS!! Flat headed yankee gal! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I also strongly dislike the term "oldtimers" and "vets." One's longevity, # of posts, etc., etc, on this board is irrelevant, IMO. What matters is the CONTENT. I know some who have been here for 3 months who know more about MB than someone who has been here for 5 years. There is no seniority, IMO, and I cringe at this glorification of oldtimers and vets. To me, that does nothing to guage the merit of someones post. Sure, someone who has been here for 5 years is likely to know more than someone who been here 2 days, but that is no guarantee of anything.
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NO INTERNET ACCESS,

Cold turkey, eh? Well when the shakes get too bad, just focus on how blest you R to be rid of us all!!!
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atleast over a hundred of my posts are about what a crack house I think Texas is...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> No wonder you were edited! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You were trash talkin TEXAS!! Flat headed yankee gal! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I also strongly dislike the term "oldtimers" and "vets." One's longevity, # of posts, etc., etc, on this board is irrelevant, IMO. What matters is the CONTENT. I know some who have been here for 3 months who know more about MB than someone who has been here for 5 years. There is no seniority, IMO, and I cringe at this glorification of oldtimers and vets. To me, that does nothing to guage the merit of someones post. Sure, someone who has been here for 5 years is likely to know more than someone who been here 2 days, but that is no guarantee of anything.

Well thats all fine and dandy. BUT, in my mind I am still the Queenie. Agreed?
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NO INTERNET ACCESS,

Cold turkey, eh? Well when the shakes get too bad, just focus on how blest you R to be rid of us all!!!

Yeah, but therein lies my problem! I enjoy the good convo. I used 2 enjoy helping others, when I ac2ally believed it mattered 2 them what I said.

But worse, I recognize my own rubbernecking tendency 2 post on those counterproductive argument threads.

-ol' 2long
Labels aren't needed. Reputation will separate the wheat from the chaff. Time spent here really means nothing, it's the quality of what's said that is important.

FH mentioned a situation where K was being attacked(I did read that thread). My first response(successfully throttled) was to leap into the fray, but I realized that K could defend himself when, and more importantly, if, it was needed.

I saw another situation where a more contemporary "vet" wanted to make sure a poster knew that she/he was offering an approach that was contrary to advice given by K and JL, who were offering help right out of the MB handbook, and that both opinions should be given equal weight. What a crock! Again, rather than fan any flames, I chose to bite my tongue.

I personally believe that the straight-up MB cookbook will not work for many couples unless it's tweaked in some way. However, I will not advise someone to deviate from MB directions from any position of authority. I am no authority on curing the ills brought on by infidelity and I won't portray myself as such. There are trained professionals who do this as a vocation and I will leave it in their capable hands.

JL, K, Mel and others give advice right out of the MB playbook. On the few occasions where they deviate, they say so and why. None of these people I refer to have "white knight syndrome" and are modest when praised.

The only label that truly applies to them is "caring, knowledgeable, quality people".
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50 deal with pasties...

Ark,

Please provide links to the above mentioned posts.
thanks, HP

Next question, How do we successfully eradicate the use of labels, period?
Chrisner....where ya been? Your name was taken in vain in the very first post on this thread and you never stopped by to defend yourself.....wutsssssup? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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50 deal with pasties...

Ark,

Please provide links to the above mentioned posts.

Chrisner, you don't understand, hunny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> That is YOOPER TALK for a sandwich!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It is yankee FOOLISHNESS!
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50 deal with pasties...

Ark,

Please provide links to the above mentioned posts.

I'm sure Arkie will be happy to provide that, as soon as you provide an enthusiatically signed POJA from your wife.

ETA: I'm sorry if you're divorced Chrisner, I wasn't sure. So instead, it needs to be a note from your mom.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Jo
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thanks, HP

Next question, How do we successfully eradicate the use of labels, period?

I vote that we change OUR OWN behavior as we see fit. That is all we have control over. We don't have the power to eradicate anything in others.
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50 deal with pasties...

Ark,

Please provide links to the above mentioned posts.

I'm sure Arkie will be happy to provide that, as soon as you provide an enthusiatically signed POJA from your wife.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Jo


pssst to Jo, arkie is talking about a YANKEE SAMMICH!! A SAMMICH!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

thanks much, Dwayne. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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50 deal with pasties...

Ark,

Please provide links to the above mentioned posts.

I'm sure Arkie will be happy to provide that, as soon as you provide an enthusiatically signed POJA from your wife.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Jo


pssst to Jo, arkie is talking about a YANKEE SAMMICH!! A SAMMICH!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Excuse me, but they are not sammies, they are meat pies.

And the funniest thing in the whole world was Ark's 10 subsequent posts on the pro's and con's of scotch tape vs super glue to hold the pasties in place while dancing the hubbalua.

Where are you people from any way? Way too funny!
Mel beat me to it...I couldn't get back in soon enough...

I was going to paraphrase Captain James T. Kirk and all you have to do is....

"Every morning you just tell yourself...'I will not label people.......today'"
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Excuse me, but they are not sammies, they are meat pies.

And the funniest thing in the whole world was Ark's 10 subsequent posts on the pro's and con's of scotch tape vs super glue to hold the pasties in place while dancing the hubbalua.

Where are you people from any way? Way too funny!

Pasty eating YOOPERS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
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And the funniest thing in the whole world was Ark's 10 subsequent posts on the pro's and con's of scotch tape vs super glue to hold the pasties in place while dancing the hubbalua.

<queues up the blonde Texas-ness in herself>

Why would one tape or glue a sammich to their body when you can use peanut butter instead?
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And the funniest thing in the whole world was Ark's 10 subsequent posts on the pro's and con's of scotch tape vs super glue to hold the pasties in place while dancing the hubbalua.

<queues up the blonde Texas-ness in herself>

Why would one tape or glue a sammich to their body when you can use peanut butter instead?

Because they are silly yankees!! What did you expect?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
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I'm sure Arkie will be happy to provide that, as soon as you provide an enthusiatically signed POJA from your wife.

ETA: I'm sorry if you're divorced Chrisner, I wasn't sure. So instead, it needs to be a note from your mom.

Sorry Resilient,

I strike out there too. My Mom died in September of '06. Two days later Wayzilla's smoking adultery took off on fire while I was occupied with my Mother's probate. D-Day was Thanksgiving. In between she did a great job of making sure all my Mother's accounts and investments was put into joint accounts. Wayzilla moved on to her future with 75K of my Mother's money. What a princess.

Oh well, no pastie links or sandwiches for me. Mel, what kind of sandwich is that? Sounds good!!
I definitely am not allowed near the superglue anymore...
mr Ark has removed it from the house...
along with the stapler...

which is a shame...because for some strange reason every year around tax time there's this crazy commotion about where is the stapler...cause someones W-2 needs stapled to someones W-4...

except now the third grader handles the taxes on the computer...

it leave me more time to figure out how to get the pasties to stick....without superglue....

life is a puzzle...

ARK
I think I'm outta here for a while....Looks like there's some ladies about to do a reenactment of the Civil War...Uh...War of Northern Aggression?...Based on numbers alone, looks like this time there might be a different outcome...
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I'm sure Arkie will be happy to provide that, as soon as you provide an enthusiatically signed POJA from your wife.

ETA: I'm sorry if you're divorced Chrisner, I wasn't sure. So instead, it needs to be a note from your mom.

Sorry Resilient,

I strike out there too. My Mom died in September of '06. Two days later Wayzilla's smoking adultery took off on fire while I was occupied with my Mother's probate. D-Day was Thanksgiving. In between she did a great job of making sure all my Mother's accounts and investments was put into joint accounts. Wayzilla moved on to her future with 75K of my Mother's money. What a princess.

Oh well, no pastie links or sandwiches for me. Mel, what kind of sandwich is that? Sounds good!!

Lord, I'm so sorry Chrisner. IMHO, "Wayzilla" deserves her label.

Jo
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Oh well, no pastie links or sandwiches for me. Mel, what kind of sandwich is that? Sounds good!!

Sorry to hear about your mother, Chrisner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

A pasty is a YANKEE sammich that they eat in the Upper peninsula. They are actually quite good! Here is a link: http://www.thepastyshack.com/products.htm

They sell these in many of their mom and pop "party stores!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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And the funniest thing in the whole world was Ark's 10 subsequent posts on the pro's and con's of scotch tape vs super glue to hold the pasties in place while dancing the hubbalua.

<queues up the blonde Texas-ness in herself>

Why would one tape or glue a sammich to their body when you can use peanut butter instead?

OMG... ROFLMAO....
Sorry Chrisner about your mom. Losing a parent is soooo hard.
Chrisner,

I am so sorry about the timing of your mom's passing and your W's A...my WH started his A when I was caring for his ailing mother....she passed in June but fortunately never knew about WH's waywardness (she had dementia).

I gotta sign off, too, but before I go I will make my own pledge:


I will never ever again call out for an MB VET to help someone on such and such a thread.

I hereby pledge to win the war on poster labels, one stifled keystroke at a time.



Thanks, Mel and Arkie and Heartpain and Chrisner and 2long and Jo and PM and whoever has faster upload speed than I do.....

Any other words should we wage war against?
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Any other words should we wage war against?

affairage (I think I originated this one, so I will offer it up for inhuman sacrifice first).

Post-police

Troll-patrol

-ol' 2long
'Lizabeth! I'm comin' 2 join ya!' - Sanford and Son
I hereby pledge to wage war on ADULTERY. A person's words interest me not.
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Any other words should we wage war against?

affairage (I think I originated this one, so I will offer it up for inhuman sacrifice first).

Post-police

Troll-patrol

-ol' 2long
'Lizabeth! I'm comin' 2 join ya!' - Sanford and Son

Absolutely no one is going to tell me what I can or cannot write in a post, MB TOS and Mods/Admins withstanding.

Thank you,
Jo
GROAN!

(no, I'm not offering that word up for demolition).


It's all a matter of perspective.

Justin Playfair (George C Scott): "Dear friends, would those of you who know what this is all about please raise your hands? I think if God is dead he laughed himself to death. Because, you see, we live in Eden. Genesis has got it all wrong. We never left the Garden. Look about you. This is paradise. It's hard to find, I, I'll grant you, but it is here. Under our feet, beneath the surface, all around us is everything we want. The earth is shining under the soot. We are all fools. Ha ha. Moriarty has made fools of all of us. But together, you and I, tonight... we'll bring him down. "

- "They Might Be Giants"

-ol' 2long
I seem to recall a thread where someone was criticized and their sincerity brought into question because they knew too much about marriage builders for someone who had just registered in recent days.

And yet on some of the quieter forums I routinely see folks who registered 5 or more years ago with less than 100 posts to their name. And on GQII we have people who have an opening thread with 20 pages within a couple of weeks and their own post count at 500 before they've been around a month.

I don't consider myself a pro, I'm not an older timer around here, I was never in the military, don't try to fix farm animals and have no desire to be called a vet.

Shoot, I don't even have a college diploma.

But sometimes, a person asks for help and it triggers me to respond for what ever reason and something I say strikes a chord in them and they gain strength or hope or whatever they were lacking, at least in some small way, from what I said. And it never fails to scare the he!! out of me!

Because if I've learned one thing it is that there is so much I don't know and the more I learn the more I realize that I don't know squat! I tell people I know a little bit less about a little bit more than anyone else and if I keep studying really hard I figure that when I die, I'll know nothing about everything and everything about nothing at all.

My brain hurts...

This is moving way too fast for me to keep up between crisis alerts and inane phone calls.

And my tang is all tungled up around my eye teeth and I can't see what I'm saying so I'm gonna take a break for a while. Maybe I'll go to lunch...

Mark
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I hereby pledge to wage war on ADULTERY. A person's words interest me not.


I forget, was this a thread to complain about the war of words...or to complain about those complaining about the war of words....or a resounding acceptance of the war of words being complained about anyone that has removed themselves from troll status by a minimum of 50 posts without complaining about the complainers?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Is you complaining? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm not sure.
Jo:

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that people aren't out 2 get you.

But I'm not out 2 get you. I'm not out 2 tell anyone how 2 post, either, or what words they can or can't use.

"Movin' 2 Montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tykoon"

-ol' 2long
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GROAN!

(no, I'm not offering that word up for demolition).


It's all a matter of perspective.

Justin Playfair (George C Scott): "Dear friends, would those of you who know what this is all about please raise your hands? I think if God is dead he laughed himself to death. Because, you see, we live in Eden. Genesis has got it all wrong. We never left the Garden. Look about you. This is paradise. It's hard to find, I, I'll grant you, but it is here. Under our feet, beneath the surface, all around us is everything we want. The earth is shining under the soot. We are all fools. Ha ha. Moriarty has made fools of all of us. But together, you and I, tonight... we'll bring him down. "

- "They Might Be Giants"

-ol' 2long

Didn't mean to single you out 2Long. Please accept my apologies.

I just see a smattering of posts implying we should start dictating what people are allowed to write.

As a responsible mature adult, I don't need anyone telling me what is and is not appropriate. I follow the TOS and will continue to do so. Those are the requirements I follow to remain a member in good standing for almost 8 years.

I hold MYSELF accountable for what I write, no one needs to do that for me.

<end of rant>

Lv,
Jo
"Movin' 2 Montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tykoon"

Well...that is so much better than the other kind of "floss"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

committed
Jo:

Okay, please accept my apologies then, 2.

I agree. If we follow the TOS, and true decency, flame wars would be difficult 2 start.

-ol' 2long
Arkie....come back....you don't like the term Vet, Mel doesn't like the term Vet, I don't like the term Vet, most all of us don't like labels at all.....
Mark doesn't want to take care of farm animals.....2long wants to be a dental floss tycoon......

It's all goood. No one can control anyone but themselves.

I agree with Mel. Let's wage war on adultery together.

Ace
I liked Jeff Wayne's musical version of "War of the Worlds". That on topic?

-ol' 2long

Mel: Texas remains the THIRD largest state in the Union, after Alaska!

But it doesn't matter 2 me, once we annex Australia!
MEDC,

You don't know what this thread's about? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sheeshhhhh!! This is some IMPORTANT stuff! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Arkie's teaching us how to properly apply pasties while doing the hubba-hubba!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Listen up. You never know when you might need this info!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
MEDC in pasties! BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! The visual is hilarious!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MEDC do yours have tassles? If so, can you make them swing in opposite directions??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
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If so, can you make them swing in opposite directions???

As I recall, Elvira Mistress of the Dark did this quite ably in the grand finale scene of her one and only movie. Can’t beat classic cimema!
I'll have to do a little shaving first...they need to stick...and NO Mrs. W, thumbtacks are not an option!

tassles....yep. I'll work ont he directional stuff...after all I DID watch Oprah today!
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I'll have to do a little shaving first...they need to stick...and NO Mrs. W, thumbtacks are not an option!

tassles....yep. I'll work ont he directional stuff...after all I DID watch Oprah today!

You could get waxed like in 40 Year Old Virgin...MEDC the MAN O' LANTERN!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey when watching Oprah, be honest, you were wearing pasties and chaps weren't ya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
hey, where did ou hide that video camera!? I need to be more careful around the house!
I hear that duct/duck tape works great! According to Mr. W that stuff fixes EVERYTHING! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
Mark....

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Because if I've learned one thing it is that there is so much I don't know and the more I learn the more I realize that I don't know squat! I tell people I know a little bit less about a little bit more than anyone else and if I keep studying really hard I figure that when I die, I'll know nothing about everything and everything about nothing at all.

My brain hurts...


LMAO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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I hear that duct/duck tape works great! According to Mr. W that stuff fixes EVERYTHING
It is one of only two tools...

The other is WD40.

If it isn't supposed to move and does, use duct tape.

If it is supposed to move and doesn't, use WD40.

Mark
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I hear that duct/duck tape works great! According to Mr. W that stuff fixes EVERYTHING
It is one of only two tools...

The other is WD40.

If it isn't supposed to move and does, use duct tape.

If it is supposed to move and doesn't, use WD40.

Mark


Mark,

I tried the WD40, but I broke out in a rash. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. W
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I tried the WD40, but I broke out in a rash.
Did you put duct tape on it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mark
Windex for rashes,
WD40 for things that don't move,
Duct tape for everything else.

I think you had it backwards.
Mark,

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Though I guess I didn't state it right, my point was that we did do harm to them though not intentionally. While feelings and perceptions are transient, that does not make them unreal to the person who is having those feelings or perceptions.

It isn't that someone simply thought I hurt them, they were hurt by my actions or words because they misinterpreted my intent or meaning. Isn't it my responsibility to attempt to clarify my words so that they do not take offense where none was intended? Or should I just tell them that they are wrong in the way they feel about what I did or said and let it remain their problem? Or should I just try to justify my position and be done with it?

Or should I then intentionally attempt to hurt them and/or their feelings further by calling them stupid for not understanding me properly? Am I justified in doing that?




If you said something someone else misinterpreted, then of course you should clarify.

In my business, I see people take offense at things all the time, that were not "intended" to cause offense at all. Often, the "offended" party has difficulty understanding for any number of reasons, perceptions being one of them.

There are times that no attempt to clarify on the speaker's part could be successful - because there are times that the "offended" party has decided to be offended and has decided that what they heard is what was meant, and that's that (this would be the hard-headed listener!). Other times, a simple clarification results in everyone being happy. And other times, something in the middle happens, and both parties are "okay" with it.

Communication errors and misperceptions happen all the time. Who is the responsible party? Depends. In your example, the listener.

See, what I do is communication analyses, so that's what I would say in the cases you presented.

However, in the idea you asked for retaliatory communication - I've seen that happen too - everyone has of course. That's how fights start. While that's not what is the recommended course of action, it's what often happens.

And it isn't always the "reason" fights start.

Because in the analyses, it isn't necessarily a communication "problem" that is the source of the fight. Often, the communication is EXACTLY what was intended - as in the case of the hard-headed person. It can be exactly the case that the communication was PURPOSELY "misinterpreted" for the specific purpose of causing a disruption, anger, and problems.

This is often done so that later on, the "problem" can be easily blamed on a "communication misunderstanding", and not on the person truly at fault. The person who PURPOSELY decided not to accept the clarification, not to listen to reason, not to allow the person who originally did nothing to offend and meant no offense - because it puts the person in a power position or serves some purpose.

Communication and perception are quite complex, and your examples have intermingled the two.



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And what if someone else jumps to their defense, am I then justified in shifting my wrath to them by alluding to what I perceive them to be saying or doing, though I know nothing more of their intent than the person who was offended knew of my intent in the first place?


Now, into the realm of "intent". This is quite a different area entirely, when we talk philosophically! There's an entire world of debate when the word "intent" comes onto the scene. If we are talking "communicative intent" in the specific example presented, I will take for granted that the people understand the situation and - therefore - communicative intent would be known. That is, one would know that the third party is in fact communicating for the purpose of defending the "offended" party.

That would be "communicative intent". Other intents would be subterfuge, and would have to be assumed by the first and second parties, and outside the purview of myself for this example, and therefore I could not analyze them.

As to your perceptions of their "intents", I would presume you mean beyond communicative intents. That would mean that you are making some sort of assumption that there are underlying mechanisms and desires on the part of the third party which are being met by this defense - and those are wholly YOUR own perception in the example. You are responsible for those perceptions, unless you have evidence that bears them out.

SB
But if you glue your pasties on

Doesn't that make them

"Glue-ies?""
Maybe we could get plaid pasties, and pretend we are all CELTs?

SB
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Maybe we could get plaid pasties, and pretend we are all CELTs?

SB

KEWL...I'm gonna sing "Zippidy Doo Dah" when wearing mine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
silly people...

pasties are tastey

ARkie
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silly people...

pasties are tastey

ARkie

Edible pasties to go with your edible undies arkie??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
SB,

I'm not a communication analyst and I'm not trained in communication...

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There are times that no attempt to clarify on the speaker's part could be successful - because there are times that the "offended" party has decided to be offended and has decided that what they heard is what was meant, and that's that (this would be the hard-headed listener!).
And I deal with this attitude daily with customers who are certain that my only possible motivation is to swindle them and get them to buy something that will be of no use to them, though they have come to me to purchase what I am selling. These are the ones that require very creative ways in order to close the sale. I have found that in many of these cases, they can become the most loyal of customers. In other cases, they become the customer from he!! because they never run out of things to gripe about.

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Other times, a simple clarification results in everyone being happy. And other times, something in the middle happens, and both parties are "okay" with it.
And I think that in the vast majority of cases this is what can and should take place.

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it isn't necessarily a communication "problem" that is the source of the fight. Often, the communication is EXACTLY what was intended - as in the case of the hard-headed person. It can be exactly the case that the communication was PURPOSELY "misinterpreted" for the specific purpose of causing a disruption, anger, and problems.
And this I see a lot of in some threads here. I also see the opposite, or what I think is the opposite, where a statement is made, though while true, is made to imply something other than what is being stated. And in those cases, I would place the "blame' for the misunderstanding on the speaker rather than on the hearer.

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As to your perceptions of their "intents", I would presume you mean beyond communicative intents. That would mean that you are making some sort of assumption that there are underlying mechanisms and desires on the part of the third party which are being met by this defense - and those are wholly YOUR own perception in the example. You are responsible for those perceptions, unless you have evidence that bears them out.
I think what I meant, though I haven't given any of this much thought today, is that the first, or offending party in this case, sees intent other than defense of the offended person by the third party that gets involved and arrives at a conclusion that I think IS based on purposely misinterpreting what is being said.

And yeah, I know, now I'm imposing my perceptions of intent on the scenario. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I could cite specific examples rather than try to do this in the hypothetical realm, but then I might offend someone and that is not what I want to do right now.


I actually think this thread shows that people can disagree, correct wrong or misunderstood perceptions and do it without shouting or name calling. And I guess I just don't understand why that can't be the norm rather than the exception.

Mark
Ah Mark,

I'm having some fun having this discussion with you!

I truly enjoy theoretical discussion with people about communication, perception, and all kinds of nerdy stuff.

Thanks for the entertainment. I'm sincere in that! I don't get to do this at work - all they want is the report, and what my "bottom line" is.

Gee, they aren't any fun at all.


Anyway, you are right about your customers. It's the same, though, in a wide variety situations of communication. Folks go into many conversations with an idea of what they desire the outcome to be - and often, with a plan for that outcome no matter what is communicated by the other person or how it is communicated.

BUT

The good news is that this type of "negotiation" can be thwarted with simple tactics of using their own style against them. If you understand the style of communicator, they each have a kind of "trademark" weakness. You can capitalize on that, and use it.

It is somewhat more difficult in the posting realm, but possible.

I understand what you are talking about, and the difficulties here on the boards. There certainly are many users who take offense where none is meant, who grab a phrase and turn it in a way that was unlikely intended, or take a discussion in a direction that was not the orginal intent when it might serve the purpose of the poster.

I have also seen many posts with, as you put it, underlying meanings. There are also others with blatant lies.

Some posters have more than one "persona" and utilize multiple usernames, although I do think that the moderators are working on that problem. I did have a different username for a few weeks when I first signed up, but didn't use it long because I felt like it just didn't portray how I felt about myself, and I didn't realize I could just change how the screen showed it - instead I re-registered under Schoolbus. I think this happens sometimes, more often than we think.

But other times, I think people like the idea of more than one username so they can post their story in one place, and be "someone else" for other reasons elsewhere. Sometimes I find myself wondering about that, and seeing similarities in different user's posts, and wondering about that type of thing - is this user that user too???? I can't help it, just happens to me.

Perhaps this is a hazard of my job, and I see similarities because that's what I do, or perhaps because the similarities are there.

There was once a thread where some people did name other usernames they had used before - but let die or don't use any longer. That thread was actually about something else originally, though....I can't remember offhand about it now.

I digress, sorry!


I agree that I would like to see the members focus more on building marriages. But as with any forum, there will be disagreements. Civil disagreements are more pleasant.

But hey, don't you like popcorn and fireworks once in awhile???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SB
Edited because this durn thing posted this twice.....

SB
Um, SB, dear dear SB, did you mean to post that twice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Course, I thought it was fun reading it both times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Okay smartie pants. I live in the sticks. "Hickville", as it were. Our Internet consists of two cans and a string. When we want DSL, we use bigger cans and put the neighborhood kid up on the roof and tell him to pull the string a little tighter.


;-) SB
Bwaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

Our 'string' has been broken, so I have been on serious W/D's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Are the bigger cans really faster?
I just love bigger cans but have to be content with what I have.....
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!! ALL of YOU!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
It's not the size of the cans that matter. Didn't anyone ever tell you that?

SB
Yes... but usually only people who have bigger cans......
I find that most bigger cans got that way from being sat on too much.

Mark
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I actually think this thread shows that people can disagree, correct wrong or misunderstood perceptions and do it without shouting or name calling. And I guess I just don't understand why that can't be the norm rather than the exception.


I have wondered about that too.

While the "shouting" might indicate anger? passion? intensity?

What possible reason can justify namecalling? IMO, it is a combination of 2 things.

A grandiose sense of one's own importance and a denigrating attitude toward the individual's who get called names.

Are there other possible reasons? Answer.com defines namecalling as "a crude substitute for argument."

In an article on Psychologyhelp.com I found the following excerpt:

" The process of name-calling is typically based upon feeling not OK, and name-callers are trying to make themselves feel more powerful by using the process. If I call you a name and get you upset, then I temporarily feel more powerful because I had a powerful effect upon you. My self-esteem rises at your expense. I project my unhappiness on to you and you take it on if you allow yourself to be upset. "

I don't know if I agree fully with that. I see name calling for the name caller as indicating two things: It demonstrates an attempt to "power over" another individual and it demonstrates an attempt to coerce another individual into silence or compliance.

Just MHO.
graplin...That's an interesting assessment from one that only a day ago was calling some people "The Wizard of Odds" in their signature line...hmmmm...

Mrs. W
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graplin...That's an interesting assessment from one that only a day ago was calling some people "The Wizard of Odds" in their signature line...hmmmm...


I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would you think I was calling anyone Wizard of Odds?

Wikipedia: "The Wizard of Odds (July 17, 1973-June 28, 1974) was a daytime television game show hosted by Alex Trebek. "
LOL...Whatever graplin!

Mrs. W
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Edit removed due to inappropriate intent. This entire e-mail has been forwarded to the mods.

Just putting this here, so there is no denial later...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
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Just putting this here, so there is no denial later...


I've never denied anything I have posted.

Do you think that my tagline applies to you in some way?
Have good day graplin! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
Thanks for the well wishes, your substantive contribution to the topic is greatly appreciated.
Thanks much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W
I believe that more often than not, namecalling occurs because the namecaller becomes so frustrated he cannot think of anything else to say.

Instead of logic and reasoned argumentation, he looses an epithet.

Not uncommon. Just ineffective and uncool.

We all have done it. Some more than others.

Show me one person who hasn't lashed out in frustration either directly or under his breath......

It happens.

The best thing to do is apologize and move on.

We own what we do. I can't say I will never call someone a name again. But as I age (gracefully, I might add) I get better at not doing it.

But I have done it, when I just lose it all. I've done it once, here.

And apologized later.

Oh well. That's the humanity of us. We are all broken. To waste yet another day, another moment, worrying about how to repair the man next to me - well - I cannot do that. For myself, I forgive and move on. For myself, my own life has been fraught with so much pain inflicted on me by people who were so very broken........how can I not look upon them and think

they need my forgiveness
they are too hurt and pained, moreso than I, even in my pain I see theirs must be more than mine

perhaps I endure mine better than they do, perhaps not

perhaps I recognize they will not rise above their own mistakes as easily, and need my forgiveness to help them up

I don't know.

But for whatever reason, to endlessly hold a grudge, to carry that weight with me

burdens only ME.




I guess I waxed philosophic just now. In this short life, forgiveness is something I have learned so very much about. It is the hardest thing to learn, and the most freeing thing. To understand that we choose what we carry with us, and choose what we leave behind is very hard to learn. Once learned, it is a much easier walk, this walk we all share.

SB
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I believe that more often than not, namecalling occurs because the namecaller becomes so frustrated he cannot think of anything else to say.

Instead of logic and reasoned argumentation, he looses an epithet.


I've seen this too. Things said and done in anger. I think most mentally healthy mature adults would turn around when tempers had cooled and apologize for their outburst. I think of this as more under the heading of the "shouting" category that I had mentioned earlier.

But, there is another form of namecalling that isn't from anger. It's from intimidation. It's from bullying. I would hazard a guess that we all saw it in some form back in grade school.

IMO, there were basically 3 groups in the dynamic.

First, the power-over namecalling group who attempted to intimidate and diminish the Second group of people who were their targets while the neutral Third group of people ignored it, were oblivious to it, glad it wasn't directed their way, or hoping that their presence would not be noticed by the First group.

That's the sort of name calling I was thinking of and what I thought Mark was referencing.

Namecalling done not in anger, but by a cold calculating choice with the goal of discrediting, mocking, and/or generally insulting. I have seen this done when the argument is being lost and the namecaller chooses the namecalling way as a method of extricating him/herself from the obviously lost argument.

Most people with namecalling bullying tendencies don't walk this earth by themselves. They usually manage to hook up with a couple of sidekicks who provide the necessary cheerleading and distraction that covers that loss. So, I don't think namecalling is always done from anger.

It's also done as a strategy for manipulation and an attempt to control, IMO and for which an apology is seldom offered.
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They usually manage to hook up with a couple of sidekicks who provide the necessary cheerleading and distraction that covers that loss
And it can almost be predicted who the next 4 or 5 posters to jump in will be...

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Namecalling done not in anger, but by a cold calculating choice with the goal of discrediting, mocking, and/or generally insulting. I have seen this done when the argument is being lost...
I think that this is one of my pet peeves right here. I am willing to dialog and converse until I am convinced or you are instead, but if a person can't support their position by argument, then why attempt to bully the other side into dropping the discussion?

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SB said:
The best thing to do is apologize and move on.
But those that Graplin describes will never offer an apology, because, I believe, it was their intent to bully those with whom they disagree but have no counter argument for.

I haven't even given this thread any thought in a couple of days. I don't know if that means I'm bored, I'm disappointed in the low volume of serious participation or if I'm just burned out by the whole thing...

My brain still hurts...

Mark
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