Well, no contact was attempted and it looks like no entry was gained into the house. Here's what I know...

1. It feels good knowing I'm doing the "right thing" and that I'm getting stronger.
2. The kids are backing me up, they get it, as much as 11 & 8 y/o brains/emotions possibly can.
3. Today was a good day, for the most part, but there's likely to be some rough ones ahead.
4. When someone who's been there themselves & sees many others thru this, listen to them - don't "make your own way" or even drift a little bit away from the Plan, because as they warn you, your Plan could get screwed up.

What I don't know...

1. How long do people do this? I mean, what if H continues to drink the way he has for years? He may or may not. Whether WS or drug/alcohol abuse, do people (or does MB generally) have a "breaking point" or "time's up"?
2. If I should be bending to his wanting to change the kid schedule already? I mean, he got the PBL, and not even an hour later I get a text (via our intermediary) saying he wants to switch weekends. Arranging such = him manipulating? Or not budging = me maintaining my boundaries?
3 & 4. I was told, SEVERAL TIMES, to move money/close our account/protect what little I've got. I didn't want to! H put money in the joint acct, so I felt it unnecessary to close it, so he could have a place to dump money. Especially after our phone conversation yesterday, in which he said there's no need for me to get lawyers involved, he'll be giving me money. Yea...so I moved MOST of the money into a personal acct, left some in the joint, check balance today, and what do I see? A $500 check just cleared - DUH, of course, he paid rent out of OUR acct! Stupid me! So that was a bit of a bummer. You told me so. My spirits are still good, it's just money, but at this point I'm disgusted by the fact that I still have HIS last name & I'm overwhelmed with shock that he did that knowing there's 2 mortgages here, a car payment, and umpteen other misc. bills. We're screwed, for the moment, but we'll get thru it. I have to admit I was tempted to call & go OFF but no - I will simply get another job, in the evenings, I could use the socialization. How low of him though. Anyway, I'm feeling D-ready right now but this day is almost over so let's see what tomorrow brings!!

So, he deposited $350...

Wrote a check for $490...

Charged $43 for groceries...

$21 for gas

$37 for gas

Yea, lotta help that is!

Mel, don't tell me to get a lawyer, I CANNOT AFFORD ONE! Just bop me upside the head, you told me so, and YES the money is in an account that ONLY I can access now.

How sweet it would have been if he'd written that check, and then it bounced because I'd closed the account. This has cost me $500 AND a laugh. I can bar-tend. We'll be OK.

Up to 2 years or until you decide it is time to move on. After 2 years reconciliation is unlikely.



Do your level best, until a mutually desirable schedule is attained, to accommodate him unless it harms you or the children. You WANT him to spend as much time as possible with the kids, as long as it does not interfere with their schooling, etc. But DO try to stick to a regimented schedule after you all get in the groove. Repeated changes cause problems.


He will have to continue to pay the bills and will have to get a second job if necessary to pay for his apt. If he falls behind, you will have to get a lawyer. The reason behind the advice to get seperate accounts is so the WS does not plunder your money. In this case, it sounds like he is still making deposits and paying the bills.

Julie, you can't afford to NOT get an attorney.

I knew you'd say that!

First off, thank you for giving me some real, straight answers!! I'm not sure I'd give it 2 years. We shall see!

This makes me think of another question. It is: are there deal-breakers or exceptions or absolute call-it-quits things that would cause it to end before 2 yrs? I suppose that varies & is pretty irrelevant right now anyway.

My money is safe now. I got what I set up for myself. If I'd closed it & it'd bounced, the bank would have moved the money anyway. So actually my best bet would have been to secure the check book, but he was on that long before I got here, so it seems.

Anyhoo, I think my priority is securing another means of funding.

I can bar-tend.

Hey...it might just be me so I am gonna mention something.

Alcohol is RUINING your marriage and your family...and you consider it an option to seek a job dishing it out to others who could be in that very same place.

I don't want to demonize the beverage, I enjoy a drink now and then, but this comment has me bumfuzzled.

It seems to me that you would remove yourself from ALL of it if you really want to save your marriage.

Anyone else see what I am saying?

Maybe it's just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

committed

She doesn't need to be working nights, period! She needs to be with her kids and her H needs to support his family! Julie, don't help him run from his responsibilities. if anyone gets a night job, it should be HIM. You and your children should not have to suffer because of his shenanigans.

Committed, that's an interesting take. WHY in the heck would I run from alcohol? I'll whole-heartedly agree with you that alcohol has been THE root of MUCH strife in my life, as a child and now, but I was thinking of a way to make some money. Working at Kohl's will pay my bills at the end of a 5-day work-week...bartending will pay my bills at the end of a shift! I suppose there's always exotic dancing. (I'm so funny) Anyway, MY relationship with alcohol is OK. If H ever decides to give sober life a go, yes of course I will ditch alcohol too as I'd imagine that's what you do to be supportive. But for now, I'm thinking of me & my kids.

Mel I actually returned here to post & ask you about that. Why do you say I shouldn't have to get a 2nd job? Attornies aside, what's your logic or reasoning behind it? Maybe we both need 2nd jobs? Seriously...I knew that he might leave so I guess I almost set myself up for that. Plus, if we do end up D, I'll have to get a 2nd job or move or something...

What is your logic and reasoning behind getting a 2nd job when you have a full time job and children to raise and a home to run?

Independence?

DD brought home a permission slip tonight for a $32 downhill skiing field trip. I told her, "I don't know what to tell you" Somebody's got to do it, so I figured it'd be me!

huh? I am not following you. You do understand that the FATHER has an obligation to pay the bills and help support the kids, right? And that your kids DO NEED YOU at home?

I am sooooo confused. Why do you not know what to tell her?

Yes. I fix things, remember? So...I see the bills, I know there's now not enough income, and...I look for a second job.

I feel like I would take a certain pride in knowing I'm floating this boat though, all by myself. I guess that's typical co-dependent? I don't know.

I see you are getting frustrated with me. Shall I tell you every detail of my life? That we are living beyond our means? Because what will that get me?

I'm trying SO HARD...

very co-dependent. They have TWO parents and both parents have to support the household. He has to continue paying the bills as before.

So about that attorney...

IF I were to contact one, what am I looking for?

A divorce attorney? Civil matters? Family law?

(Clueless, I am)

Does enforcing financial support, WHEN I'm ready/able, constitute a legal separation?

Yes, you may have to get a LSA. Ask around at work for a good family lawyer and then check prices.

Fixing things, taking up HIS repsonsiblities....VERY co dependent behavior Julie. Being raised in an alcoholic home and being married to an A as well, it is probably a way of life for you, and it's VERY common. However, it is a big part of the work you must do in alanon. It is enabling behavior that is damaging to you and the A. No matter how hard you try you will not be able to FIX your A. That is his work, if he choses to do it. You need to do the work in alanon to stop your part in this scenario. Don't brush this off, this type of behavior is what keeps the cycle going. It is also one of the reasons why I was mentioning previously that I was concerned about using your mom as the intermediary.

You completely brushed over that when Mel mentioned it. Not a 2x4, but you skipped right past that very important piece of information that she gave you. I didn't see my role until it was pointed out to me. Not fixing things was very hard for me to give up! It was my role at that time in my life.

He was given a choice to stay at home and not drink, or get out. He chose to leave so he could drink. HE will have to pay for it. Not you! The kids need as much stability as possible and you cannot have 2 jobs and be the primary caregiver without something suffering.

I am not one bit surprised that he did what he did at the bank. I rather expected it. I am glad you have your own account now. And thre is nothing else that has your name on it that he can do damage to you with, right? It sounds like his accounts and yours are all still at the same bank. If so, check with them to be sure that any activity he does cannot fall back on you.

And yes, you MUST talk to an attorney. No question. Some may give you an initial consultation without a charge...check around. Maybe you could qualify for legal aid? I don't know, but you need to get solid legal advise about your situation from a qualified family law attorney.

It may feel overwhelming, but these only some basic things that you have to take care of..for you and your children.

There's much work to do and keep all the "fixing" focused on fixing you.

Yes, it IS overwhelming.

Yes, we have our accounts at the same bank but NO - I've been assured he can't tap into mine. Passwords are changed, money is transfered & he can't transfer it back.

Yes, fixing things is what I do. And for a long while I enjoyed that, took pride in it, it worked.

No, I didn't brush off the concern about my mom being intermediary, I didn't skip over it either. And she isn't our intermediary!

I don't know what an attorney will say when they look at our obligations. They may cringe. And OK, I can see I'll most likely need one, but whether I've got one job or 4, right now I have to be FOCUSED while I'm at work. I cannot be calling attornies or checking balances or bringing this to work with me! Recently my pay structure has changed drastically. H & I knew this, we were "prepared" for it, then I gave him the ultimatum & he bailed so it's a little scary. I'll get thru it, but it's not going to be easy.

I know it's overwhelming...take it as it comes and try not to to project too far into the future. You know the phrase...one step at a time.

I am glad you chose a different intermediary. I wasn't referring to skipping over that. I was referring to skipping over Mel's statement about your co-dependent behavior. . It's not to be critical, just what we, on the outside, see. No matter, really, I just wanted you to be sure to see that, that's all.

Don't worry if someone might cringe over your money situation. It is what it is. They probably have seen it all anyway. Your JOB right now is to take care of you and the kids the best possible way. Please call around. You protect your kids from lots of things, this is just one more.

On the bank side, I was more worried that you could be liable for any problems that he would create in his account, not that he could have access. Just a thought, I really don't know.

You're right, it won't be easy, but keep doing "the next right thing" (another alaonon phrase).

hang in there kiddo!

Committed, that's an interesting take. WHY in the heck would I run from alcohol?

I am not saying to run FROM alcohol.

I thought you wanted it REMOVED from your life.

Isn't that the condition your H has to meet?

Anyway, MY relationship with alcohol is OK.

No, IMHO, it isn't ok. Your H has a drinking problem...a HUGE drinking problem. He is an alcoholic, so alcohol IS problematic for you. You want him to stop ...you cannot surround yourself with it...you have to set the bar right now while in Plan B.

If you want your H to return home clean and sober, ditch alcohol NOW. It would go a long way in showing him that YOU are serious.

JMHO
committed

Hmmmm, I'm nt sure I agree.

Others, thoughts?

If, while he is gone, I am invited out for drinks w/friends, knowing that I have CONTROL and am RESPONSIBLE when I choose to drink, I don't know that I'd decline.

And I'm still on the fence about bartending/bringing in extra money - so far I've got nothing lined up - one day at a time.

So...Mel, SickOfThis, what do you think?

I would have nothing to do with working in bars. They are nothing but trouble. Haven't you had enough of drunks? The thing that bothers me about it is you are already working full time and have 2 kids who need you. That is TWO full time jobs. Using your free time to work in a stinky bar is not going to give you any time to rest up.

Julie, your H needs to step up to the plate here, even if it means getting a LSA. He has to support his family.

I would agree with every word that Mel and committed said about the bar thing.

As for finding the second job I don't know what else to say...he made his choice, he needs to pay for that. It's time for him to be responsible for his choices. You are basically preventing him from that.

You already said that you don't even have the time to call around to talk to a lawyer. How are you going to have the time to work a second job?

Time for healthy choices now.

I get that you have financial problems. I know how hard that is. But you have to stop the enabling behaviors.

Another way to put it...would you get a second (third) job to financially support an affair with an OW?

Julie, I am with you in your thinking.

Bartending is just a job. And it pays very well. You have the right not to live with an alcoholic, but you are not the world's moral police.

As for not taking the second job and letting your H pay the bills????? Sure, if you don't care if your kids eat. I was awarded child support, too, and 10K in arrears sure doesn't pay the rent. Look at how he 'gave' you money this past week. What makes anyone think that's going to change?

We do what we have to do to take care of our children. Not what is 'right'.

Julie
Thoughtful Request:

Could you please stay on one thread so we can stay with you?

Enablers/Fixerss whatever you want to call it have to make everthing alright for everyone.

WE (my family) would still be in the same situation if I hadn't got the he## out of Gods way and let Him do His work.

Co-dependants get in the way of natural consequences. We feel so good for "fixing or keeping things together". We have to "hold it all together". "Make it all work no matter what.

In one of my many situations:

I got a call from a neighbor that my W was passed out, sitting behind the wheel of our vehicle, foot on the brake, and the vehicle in drive, pointed at the road from a business parking lot.
He asked me what I wanted to do. This happened many times but not with the vehicle in gear and running.

OLD ME
I would go pick W up-Yell and scream for days bring it up over and over-remind her how I saved her. This was done many times over different situations in the past.

AFTER A year and a half of Al-Anon

I asked the neighbor why he was calling me? Do WHAT you think is right. This was a dangerous situation. Not only to herself but the public. He called the police.
She did get a DWI .197 Three one thousnadths from a felony.
She had to face the music for her actions.
I could have easily (as I did in the past) saved her from that situastion but what would the life lesson have been. I can do whatever I want and Chris will save me.

THIS IS BIG
I TAUGHT HER THAT WITH """"MY PAST BEHAVIOR"""......
I TAUGHT HER THAT WITH """"MY PAST BEHAVIOR"""......
I TAUGHT HER THAT WITH """"MY PAST BEHAVIOR"""......

There were tons of situations where I saved W from her responsibility. What did I teach Her? NO MATTER WHAT W DOES I WILL SAVE YOU>>>>???.....IT IS an extremely sick way to live. It keeps bad behavior from being addressed in healthy ways.

It sounds like this is your situation may be similar.

SLOW down-Keep going to Al-Anon meetings-

ML and SOT1961 are really trying to help. Slow down and really digest what they are saying. Both of them are way healthier than I and more experienced with the MB principles and how to execute them.

This is not a week long adventure and then everything is OK.
My wife just has a year of sobriety. Thats a good thing. Is my life with her happier? Somewhat. Do I want it to be better? YES. Is it where I want it to be? NO A LONG ways from it. All of this takes time--and lots of it.
ALL of this is a process that takes lots of time.

I wish you all the best. My prayers are with You all.
Take it easy and be good to yourself and children. Do something nice for yourself. Believe this will all work out for the best-As long as JULIE does her part-NOT ALL OF IT.

Chris

Julie,

Do NOT get a second job. You work full-dime during the day. You need to be home with the kids in the evening. Even if you can get evening child care free (family member, fiend) your kids will need you there not someone else.

It is hard for me to fathom that you would even consider working in a bar. How many more drunks do you want to deal with? I know that the money might look nice, but really, you are trading helping your kids deal with there changing life for some cash. I don't think it is a fair trade.

You need to see a lawyer. You need to get a LSA established.

Julie,

NESR hit it right on the head. Very well said and you should read that a few times.

Next get legal help immediately find a good attorney that has free first consultations. You will do your self good to document everything you can that will be pertinent to a divorce and child custody hearing.

For custody it is your part and your husbands part in child rearing. In my state one of the other determining factors is addiction so you will need to tell them that.

Next realize that again in my state support is nothing more then a result spit out of a computer.

They factor in
Your income
His income
The amount of physical custody
The number of children.

So in my free consultation I would ask if taking another job now would decrease the amount of support I get in the long run.

I would also consider what my husband lawyer would say about the type of job I have, bartending, and could you really take care of the kids. So just think before hand.

If it won't effect your custody I would tend bar too. It is good money, just try to remember not to bring your work home with you.

This all needs to be considered before you make any other decesions.

Thanks, you're right. Yes, I'll stick w/this thread. Thank you all for keeping up.

Changing gears...DS/8's principal just called, DS/8 was found with a "weapon" & she said it's worthy of calling the police. (She's not going to, but it IS something she could/would) She said H or I need to come pick it up...I cannot leave here, and I am also not the out of control influence in my son's life right now, so I told her to have H come in for it.

Wouldn't you all agree? Because leaving anyway to handle myself would be "protecting" H from the REALITY of how his actions are affecting our children - no?

Changing gears...DS/8's principal just called, DS/8 was found with a "weapon" & she said it's worthy of calling the police. (She's not going to, but it IS something she could/would) She said H or I need to come pick it up...I cannot leave here, and I am also not the out of control influence in my son's life right now, so I told her to have H come in for it.

Wouldn't you all agree? Because leaving anyway to handle myself would be "protecting" H from the REALITY of how his actions are affecting our children - no

No, I do not agree.

Do NOT...I repeat do NOT use the children as a means to get your H to do what is right. He is not capable of that right now. He cannot parent while he is nursing a bottle of booze.

This is serious stuff Julie. Why aren't you at that school right now? It is a weapon for goodness sake...one that could have landed him in juvie...and OUT of your home. I work in a school right now...it would have meant IMMEDIATE police notification, handcuffs, a visit to the judge AND group home for 10 days.

YOU need to take care of this. You cannot stop being a parent (e.g. night job and not going to his school) simply because your marriage is teetering. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

committed

Thanks. I'm leaving now...

I agree, go get the boy. Did she say what the "weapon" was? I got a similar call about my boy in the 6th grade along with grave threats of being "expelled from school FOR LIFE!" What was the dangerous "weapon?" A FREAKING cigarette lighter! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Hoping it is something that innocuous.

Also -
If you had told your H to go to the school and deal with this - H would have come back at you with "See! You can't handle the boy. he needs to spend more time with me. I want full custody"

You and I know that your son is acting out against his dads bad decisions.
But in your H's mind, he hasn't made bad choices, he just needs to be free to live his life, and when you finally start supporting him better, the kids will be fine.

Let you H suffer from his bad choices as they affect him personally. But not as they affect the kids. for the kids sake, you need to be the hero.

Well thanks for the smack, it came just in time. The principal did call H, left a message, and when he called back she told him what'd happened & said Julie is on her way in.

It was a crochet-hook-looking-thing. It also looks very similar to the hooks the dentist uses, but it's got a rubber grip on it. DS says it's a staple remover. No, I don't think he intended it as a weapon as he walked up to his teacher & said, "have you ever seen one of these (staple removers)?" Teacher said no, and I'd better check w/principal to make sure this is OK...you know the rest. Principal & teachers all agreed this is grounds for a trip downtown. In fact they told DS, in my presence, if your mom wasn't as supportive as she is (we've had a great relationship w/the school staff for more than 7 yrs now) that she would have called the police - not me.

Thanks again. Gosh I'm messing up! But thank you for sticking with me. DS has a sleepover tonight & I'm not going to CXL it/punish him. I do think it was an honest, stupid mistake. I really try to keep school & home punishments separate if I can.

And committed, a note from me to you:


That was harsh and uncalled for. Maybe this struck a nerve w/you based on where you work but there's no need to be insulting. You know, I don't have it all right, but I'm attending Al-Anon meetings & coming here & trying to get advice/support so that I can make the best decisions. After all, even though I made that (wrong) decision I came here & checked against you guys, and then quickly fixed it. So I wish you would have been more considerate of my feelings.

Well, I am not sure how you see it as insulting.

It was unvarnished truth.

The truth often sometimes DOES hurt.

It got you going...that's all that matters to me.

committed

Ah, no, saying I stopped being a parent is NOT the truth.

Even if I'd gotten a 2nd job because when I thought of that I thought it'd be good parenting to make sure we have enough money...even if I would have had H handle the school matter because my thinking on the subject wasn't clear...it wouldn't mean I'd stopped being a parent. So if you're arrogant enough to admit no wrong in your wording, that's on you.

A LOT of what was said on here, to me and to others in separate threads, by a LOT of the members here, has "got me going". So...

Julie,

Look at the wording a bit closer.

I did not say that you had stopped being a parent.

I said that you CANNOT stop being a parent etc.

It's kind of like when someone says "you cannot run a red light". It doesn't mean that you have. It simply means that you cannot.

The bottom line is that you cannot MAKE him do anything.

You cannot make him stop drinking.
You cannot make him be a good parent.


If you want a marriage with this man you are going to have to abandon alcohol for YOURSELF also. You might not have a problem with it, but it is a HUGE problem for your marriage. If he has a problem, then it is YOUR problem too, that is if you want to be married to him.

When you try to force things you are going to be met with a stone wall.

Again...it is all in the way you read it.

committed

Julie, committedandlovingit is on your side; put down the UZI! She can be a great help to you, so please don't take her the wrong way just because she doesn't mince words. If I believed for a minute she had any malice towards you, I would open up a can of Texas whoop [censored] on her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, she is in your corner, be assured of that. She won't beat around the bush with you and that is exactly what you need.

If I believed for a minute she had any malice towards you, I would open up a can of Texas whoop [censored] on her!

Pack your lunch Mel...coz it's gonna take ya all day if that happens....oh, and bring your biggest and your baddest too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, she is in your corner, be assured of that. She won't beat around the bush with you and that is exactly what you need.

Thanks Mel...coming from a nonbush beater like yourself, I take that as a compliment! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

committed

Julie
I think all commited was trying to do was light a fire somewhere!!!

Kids are important and I'm glad this w/your son turned out the way it did.

Whether you like it or not you need to be there as much as possible for them at this time. I'm sure they are also confused and sad and scared about all of this. The whole family is deeply affected.

You being gone from home may be just as hard on the kids as H being gone. They need a rock solid person to depend on.
EVEN IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE YOUR THAT PERSON-FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT...


Question:
Have you really done a money inventory? PUT it down in black and white? Sometimes I've freaked out over a financial problem and found out it was not as bad as it looked when I put it down on paper.
Ideas may present themselves that you can physically see in black and white. You may see where you could cut some corners without big sacrifices.
You may also find bills that are not yours to pay?

Might be worth trying.

GOOD LUCK

Chris

I don't doubt that for a silly NEW YAWK second! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But..........you is yankee at the end of the day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I don't doubt that for a silly NEW YAWK second! But..........you is yankee at the end of the day!

YANKEE! Who is you calling a YANKEE?

Thems fightin' words.

I'm a REBEL...all the way!

Born and bred south of the Mason-Dixon.

committed

Pack your lunch Mel...coz it's gonna take ya all day if that happens....oh, and bring your biggest and your baddest too.



CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG......

BY THE WAY IF YOU PUT IT ON PPV I'D PEEL OFF A 20 TO SEE IT!!!

CHRIS

OMG, I just called a southerner a YANKEE! **thud** MEA SO DAMN CULPA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

YOU PIMP!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sumbody get out the salts...

Mel done got the vapors! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<<<fan>>>> <<<<fan>>> <<<fan>>>>

committed

Hi Julie,

I hope your night is going OK. I remember when my I received a similar call on my oldest son...it was right after Columbine. The teacher called but told me that she was not going to tell anyone unless another child brought it up at home and it became an issue. I was very involved in the PTA and a cub scout leader so that might have helped. In any event, something dropped out of his back pack and slid across the floor and a girl screamed DS1 has a knife!! He was very into art at the time and it was one of the retractable knives used to cut matts in art class. The blade was about a half an inch long fully extracted. Anyway, nothing came of it but it was still unsettling to get a call like that from work.

Had I been on line today I would have told you the same as the others...get to your son! Your H choice to leave the home so that he is free to drink has consequences for him. You taking legal steps to protect yourself and the kids (find the time to call someone! This must get done!), him having no money, him missing his kids, no contact with his wife, etc. Not getting to the school to support your son would not fall in that category. I am certain you see the difference. Just like you did, your kids are living under the influence of an alcoholic household...they really NEED a rock solid mom that they know is solidly there for them. That is why you are getting strong repsonses about another job, etc.

I didn't hear anything harsh in committed's responses. Your defenses are high right now and that is very normal. You're running on a lot of emotion right now. Committed gave perfectly sound advise and it got you moving in the right direction...to your son.

Please remember to take this slow. It took a lot of time to get to this point and it won't be solved overnight. I know you are fighting the urge to get this all fixed, right now. Reality is, you can't fix him, just you.

There was a prior comment about having to take the bar job so the kids could eat, etc. Poster does hae a point and I have been there, wore the T-shirt. However, if you would get to a lawyer I think you will be advised to not get that second job from there as well. Aside from the time that kids won't have you around to support them, you could be jepordizing child support figures and even possibly custody issues if your H decides to play rough with you legally down the road. GET TO A LAWYER, get informed about your rights and then you will some facts to make a plan.

At the point you are in this, some things may sound like attacks, but honestly, they are not. Everyone wants to help and support you. You're doing fine.

Some states take the custodial parents' income into play when determining child support, some don't. I live in Illinois, and the courts never asked how much I made.

I agree with getting to a lawyer. You can't afford NOT to have a child support order entered.

I'm glad everything turned out all right with the school.

Thanks everybody. H did call last night, talked to DD/11 but didn't get a chance to talk to DS/8 cuz I had to use the phone. I'm reading, just haven't had much to add...till now.

This was H's weekend w/the kids, but he doesn't have them. Today is a Packer game (we're in WI) & I don't know...is it the play-offs now? Anyhoo, H & DS are BOTH big-time Packer fans so they BOTH won't be missing this game. It only just occurred to me the reason H doesn't have the kids may very well be so that he doesn't have any interruptions - watching game or drinking thru its entirety. On one hand I'm glad he made the right choice per my PBL & kids best interest but on the other hand I'm sad that beer wins AGAIN - DS would LOVE to watch the game w/his dad. I've got lots of running around to do today plus I'm not football fan so DS is going to watch it w/his aunt who's very into it.

Anyway don't scold me, I'm not trying to control H's actions & I'm also not spending a lot of time thinking about it. It crossed my mind & so I posted here - often times I "journal" - either on paper or computer as I think of things.

Julie

Just wanted to say Hey!!

Sounds like a good thing with keeping a paper journal. The same as WSs try to change history so do A's. It may not seem important now but 6 mo or a year down the road it may be very important.

With my experience with the A W I felt extremely crazy myself at times. At several points, when things got extremely crazy to me, I would take a few minutes and visualize a stop sign in my mind. I know it sounds crazy but just taking that few minutes and shutting my mind off gave me the opportunity to see what was the most important task at the moment. I could then continue on in the day instead of my mind running wildly.

Might be worth a try. Journaling also helps to sort things out.

Jusy wanted to let you know I was thinking about you and your family.

Chris

Hey everybody. We had a fun/busy morning! The kids are out of the house now, having fun with family & friends, so I'm reading up on some Plan B threads while my chili slow-cooks. Couple questions:

1. Should I have Plan A'd? It doesn't really seem like it because that could translate to more enabling...but I was just reading that the best Plan Bs are those that follow phenomenal Plan As. I didn't have a Plan A. Did we skip that part because we are dealing with alcohol/drug addiction? Just want to make sure I didn't sell myself short (well that doesn't seem likely) or skip a vital part of possible recovery.
2. Regarding the LSA, will NC between H & I have to be broken? Right, I haven't contacted an attorney yet. I figure that'll need to be done during the week & I want to go into it w/as much knowledge as possible. If anything's going to be documented by someone legally, I need to know what I'm doing. Will this mess w/my Plan B?

Julie, Plan A is not to be used with alcoholics/addicts, because it is impossible to meet their needs. It is a disaster, because it is nothing more than enabling. They use it as an opportunity to exploit the BS. That is why we skipped that part.

And no, your NC won't have to be broken during a LSA. It won't effect your Plan B. If your attorney objects to your silence in Plan B, tell him that is how it will be and he needs to support you in that. Attorneys don't know how to save marriages, and often their goal is to facilitate an amicable DIVORCE. You don't want a divorce, you just want to be legally protected while you drag this out. You want him to DRAG HIS FEET.

And you may live in a state that does not have LSA, but only divorce. That is ok, you go ahead and file, get the terms in place and have your atty DRAG HIS FEET. It is all the same, and you can still stop the action when/if you choose.

That is an excellent idea! These journals can be used in court if you ever get to that point. Be sure and write down EVERYTHING you do for the kids, dr's appts, etc.

I want the attorney to drag his feet? Uy, the idea of filing for D really scares me. I know it's not carved in stone but MAN just the impact...

Actually, a few years back we were to D while separated & I picked up the papers. We were going to try and do it on our own, as we were agreeing on most things & it's cheaper.

Is this an option? Pick up/file papers myself, that is?

nooooooo, because the point is NOT to get a divorce at all, but to make sure he pays child support and continues to support the household. Don't let the D word scare you, Julie. This is just a FORMALITY to ensure he supports his family. It can be dropped at any time. The word that should scare you is: DESTITUTION. That is your greatest threat.

Julie, how have you acted in the past when he left? You said this has happened many times before so there must be an established pattern here. Can you desribe the typical breakup? How did you usually act and who usually facilitated the reconcilation?

I changed my UserName. It's time. The W is creeping me out.

OK, just wanted to understand.

I can't wait to hear your analysis of this! (I'm not joking) In the past when he'd leave, I'd beg & plead for him to come home. Well, there was a time before we were married - we were living together & getting along fine mostly, this was when I was partying almost as much as him - still not uncontrollably, always cautiously actually, but often with him. Anyway he said he wanted to move out. That he'd never lived on his own & he wanted space & to see what it was like. I don't remember any blow-up, we were still pretty much BF/GF, and for that few months he partied ALOT. I began looking for a house & when I finally closed on one (this one) I offered for him to move w/me, and he did. There were a couple(?) times early in our marriage when we (mostly mutually) agreed we needed space/time apart, and he'd stay w/friends for a week...then come home. One time we were apart OH, about a month, probably as the result of a fight & most likely I cried, begged, threw myself in front of the door...once he came home on New Year's Day @7:30am from the New Year's Eve festivities. I don't know why I didn't go with him. Anyway he got home & I was beyond LIVID, he was still drunk (and I know now you don't argue w/an active drunk, especially WHEN they're drunk!) and I started in on how UNacceptable it was for him to be out that late/driving drunk...he decided to leave, I begged him not to, he began packing things, I cried and carried on & begged, he was determined to leave, threw myself in front of the door, he moved me & left, and I recall very clearly me saying, sobbing, "Will you give me a HUUUGG?!" and he said, "NO!" as he made his way to his car. Last year, as you know, he was out for about a week because of the 30th birthday party when I had his friends come over & remove him, then wouldn't let him return till he agreed to no more alcohol (do you remember that?). This time he came to me after us not speaking for a week after a drunken blow-up and said he doesn't think this will work, we're not compatible, he's changed so much over the years but I continue to not rub his back or clean the house or take care of him & he still doesn't like the dogs & I'm just never going to change...so he thinks it best he move out, but didn't have money/anywhere to go...then 2 days later I gave him the choice of clean/sober family or go now. He found money AND a place to go! Heh

There IS one "pattern" I just realized recently: he always does this around this time of year. Recently anyway. It's weird. In the summertime if we have a fight leaving never comes up. In the winter, he leaves!

What makes you ask this?

OH, reconciliation. Well, they were usually mutual. We'd end up sitting, talking...once we had a time set up for him to come over & talk, so we were sitting on the couch, talking, and suddenly we both stopped, looked at each other, and like clockwork ran to the bedroom. One time we became "friends" via talking/meeting/"dating" while he was out, and I finally wrote him a letter asking him to come home because I'd fallen in love w/him again...so one day he showed up w/his bags as the kids & I just getting home & he called to us, "I was wondering if you'd (all) take me back?" OH happy day! (Aw, that made me cry!) And one time his dad got very, very sick while we were apart & we needed to get to him. H didn't want to be on the same flight as me but his eldest sister booked it so he was stuck...while on the east coast H & I both went to work supporting his step-mom, talking to his sister, handling stuff @the hospital, and she only had the one bed for us so we were "stuck" sleeping together...and again this amazing chemistry took over. We were there a few weeks & pretty much became friends again, we were each others' support system, and at the end of the day we were crazy, hormone-induced & sometimes drunk teenagers.

Hmm, it's weird drudging all this up.

I sort of figured this was the case. That behavior gives him POWER over you and I suspect he figures it is just a matter of time before you FOLD and play true to form. I don't think he realizes yet this time is very different. When he sees that you really MEAN what you said in your letter, I think you may see a reaction. But given what you told me here, I am not surprised at his silence. It is because in the past you have folded and he believes you will again. He has decided to have a little fun before you fold and come begging. He is in for a rude awakening.

The thing that sort of scares me about this, Julie, is that I know how manipulative alcoholics are. He is very good at manipulation and you typically believe much of what he says. You did this last time. This is one of the reasons I think it is VERY IMPORTANT for you to continue to get to as many Alanon meetings as you can, and most importantly to NOT REACT to anything he does until you COME HERE AND TELL US FIRST. Not that you are gullible, you are NOT, but that most normal ppl can't detect a good manipulation. The reason AA is so helpful is because alcoholics can't con other alcoholics. We see right through it immediately.

I should edit that but you've already quoted it. I didn't necessarily ever beg him to come home (as outlined in my post about reconciliation) but I DID beg, kick, scream, sob, cry, plead for him NOT TO LEAVE. I don't think I ever begged him to come home once he'd actually left.

Does that make a difference?

It seems you're getting a better feel for who my H is, and that is comforting to me. I will continue to go to meetings, as I can get someone to watch the kids. I need the meetings like I need this board & it's a deal, I'll post stuff here first.

Does my description of our reconciliations scare you? I think it scares me! Why? Well, the other night, I can't explain why, but the other night I considered sending him an inviting/suggestive/sexy text message. I still know that's ONE tool I can rely on. I know that's a sick way of thinking and no I didn't do it nor will I. I was feeling vulnerable, I thought about it, and I got up & did laundry. I've used that aide before though when I didn't want him getting too drunk - lure him home w/SF. Worked every time! (Yuck)

See, he is used to being taken back with open arms and REWARDED for his abusive behavior. He thinks this will be the case again when he ready, I suspect. That is why I want you to be PREPARED when he eventually tries to come back. He is thinking he can come back without making any changes as he has in the past. In the past, he was able to TALK his way out of it. He won't be able to this time. I think he will TRY.

Your description of the past breakups and reconciliations sounds like the marriage of any typical, immature, insane alcoholic. Instead of acting like a married man, he acts like a silly teenage boy and DATES his own wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> That is for children, not grown ups.

Were you raised in a household that had craziness like this? Does this all seem normal to you? You know, this is not how normal people live.

You're getting to know him! Hmm..

I waiver between thinking he'll come back & he won't. I mean, he never mentioned divorce this time. And he has in the past, even in arguments. And the other day he told me there was no reason to get lawyers involved. So, that's weird. BUT, he got an APARTMENT! And he took $500 of OUR money for it - that really floored me. The apartment itself just hurt a lot, but then again what did I expect? And, maybe he's "teaching me a lesson" here, trying to make me desperate again (won't work). But using OUR money really did shock me!

NO, I was not raised in a household like this. My parents were NOT affectionate, still aren't. See, yes I'm realizing that H has battled addiction thru our marriage, getting worse with each passing year/drink, but he's always been VERY affectionate towards me (while sober) and we were such a playful family - just a few weeks ago we were "fighting" over the remote, it started on the couch & we ended up on the floor, laughing, twisting, tickling, kicking, the kids cheering us along the whole time. That's us. That was NEVER (that I witnessed) my parents. Also neither of my parents ever left the other.

Isn't your dad an alcoholic?

Yea

Julie - Stand firm in your resolve, and don't let him slip back in. One of my dear friends is an alcoholic and was a down and out drunk. He used to take his check on payday and cash it and go to the bar. Then he would go on a 3 day bender. He left his wife and kids with NOTHING.

He finally went to AA and has been clean and sober for 10 years now. His family is happy once again and you would never guess in a million years their history.

So you had a normal, sane, quiet, unchaotic upbringing?

Not even a little bit!

I guess where I still catch myself & struggle, is that I thought or at least I was telling myself that my kids WERE having a normal, sane, quiet, mostly unchaotic upbringing.

Do you realize now you weren't telling yourself the truth?

Yes & no. It's still hard, the comparison, which I won't go into AGAIN as it's probably prohibitive in my own healing. But things like the neighbor knowing it all along & my brother who I'm not very close with telling me the other night that he saw it for years and really seeing how the kids handle it are a big, very real, wake-up call.

Hey you know my mail box, the one he kicked off the post NOT because he was drunk but because he was mad, is still sitting on my porch, not back on the post? I'll go out & put it back on but that's another thing I'm surprised about - usually he'll go around fixing things. Wonder what made this time so different? The mailbox, the apartment, the money...!?

Realization of the TRUTH is very conducive to healing. You have been living in an insane asylum and you will begin to see this more and more as you are removed from his drinking.


Alcoholics don't stay the same or get better when they drink, they get consistently WORSE.

Hi Julie,

Alcoholism is progessive, like Mel said.

The A lives in denial but so do we. I thought I was doing such a good job hiding his drinking and drunken behavior from everyone. Once it was all revealed I was shocked at how many people said things like, "Well, it's about time" or other comments about how they all knew. I was only fooling myself that things were "normal". In fact, for awhile I forgot what "normal" felt like, looked like, was.

Alanon definately addresses that issue.

I know you are right, and I suspect that little hang up is going to take a while. Slowly it's coming together. I had a dream about my wedding rings last night. I really do like them & miss them.

It's probably safe to say I DON'T know what normal is, as I've never necessarily had it!

I forgot to share another thing here (kinda journaling, I guess): you know how you all beat me up over the 2nd job? Well as I was arguing w/you, thinking I WOULD BE the stand-up parent by earning enough money, I kept hearing this voice in the back of my head. It was an old boss, who I had a conversation with once when I was telemarketing (hourly + commission) & I was telling him about an MLM thing I wanted to get involved with, and wanted him to join with me as he always had good business sense. He said to me, "how about you take all of that energy you've put aside for the new thing, and put it into what you're doing here? Then you'll still have extra money but you won't have to switch gears!" I was irritated with him but knew he was right. I went on to win contests & prizes & time off with my exceptional performance at my day job. This was when my DD/11 was just a baby & since then, I've "preached" the same to other people. So yes I knew it was an "option" as I was thinking recently about taking on a night job. Well anyway, by Thursday I was pretty far behind my goal (I'm in sales - 100% commission!) and feeling really hopeless...but Friday I came in, kept that number in front of me, didn't get up for coffee or bathroom breaks, and I'm still short of my goal but only by about $300! This felt great at the end of the day, and it will also directly impact my pay check.

The power of ME.

Hi Julie,
Did you get your front door lock situation fixed?

Just mull over the second job thing...sounds like maybe you could put feelers out there for a job that is not commission based. Since you are in this BS situation you should think about getting a base salary at least, if you are going to stay in sales.

I have my RE license and was in sales forever, but turned to marketing with a base + bonuses. I have 2 kids to take care of and it really helps ease the financial stress.

Now I can focus on me, my kids and my future, with or without my WH.

On the drinking part, I enjoy a cocktail every now and then myself. Moderation in everything.

However, when and if you go through Plans A and B and step into the recovery stage, I would encourage you not to drink if your spouse is going to demonstrate the willingness to participate in AA. ONLY if that happens though. Until then I see no harm at all in a glass of wine, or a beer, etc. You aren't the alcoholic. Your husband is.

Go out with friends! Enjoy yoru life! Have fun with your kids! Pray for your marriage!

Things are going to turn out alright, you'll see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The longer you stay away from the craxy making that goes on in an alcoholic home the more you will see glimpses of a more "normal" home life. Adult children of alcoholics (ACOA) have a harder time with this because you may have never lived it. There are great meetings for ACOA too. In the alanon meetings I go to most everyone there is also an ACOA. There is an obvious reason for that.

The more you understand the damage that alcohol has played in your whole life the more you will want to stay away from anyone where alcohol is a major influence in their living. For YOUR reovery you should avoid other situations where there is any alcohol dependence.

Keep up the good work! Keep going to your meetings.

Sooooooo...you're saying IF I DO end up D, which would be a long way away, I probably shouldn't start dating again or looking for love in a bar? Might wanna steer clear of that scene for a while?

I don't understand your question. Who's talking about divorce and dating and meeting someone in a bar?

I don't know if you are joking with me or projecting way out in the future.

I just just continuing on the discussions about staying away from people who are alcohol dependent or who are enmeshed with alcohlics so you can get clearer on what life is like when it is not full of craziness caused by a drunk.

*DING* *DING* Understatement of the year Award!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, SOT. Yes I was mostly joking. See, I'm actually a *REALLY* funny person (says self) but I suppose most of my postings here have been sad, hurt, angry & confused. Sorry to confuse you.

I was thinking as I lay in the tub earlier, how I really hope H & I can get back on track within this year as we had big plans for a 10th anniversary party. We did it for our 5th & had pretty much planned on doing so every 5 years. I thought about how sad I'll be if I'm not in his arms/at our 10th anniversary party on our 10th anniversary...or will I? I don't need to tell you it was an open bar, and Mel I don't need to remind you of last year's birthday party, so, hmmm, it might be a *relief* not throwing a party catering to all our drunk, loser "friends"! Avoiding the worry is a little exciting, actually! It'd be nice to get away together in Hawaii though, sober...

My brother asked me the other night, "I've always wondered why you were OK with all the pot smoking. How is that different? Why was it OK?"

I don't know! But, it WAS different. I have no explanation. More foggy insanity I guess.

Glad you were joking. It just threw me because it came out of left field.

I can't remember if I ever read your prior thread. Do you have a link? I think I might have but it would help me to read it again.

I'm glad you mentioned your friends because that's where I was going with this. We usually get a lot of guidance from our friends and family. Usually people who drink heavily hang with others that do too, for obvious reasons. Since you have been raised with an A, married an A, and I assume some of your friends are married to an A, I am a bit concerned about advise you might get from them.

They may not be your best resource. The same for your H. If he asks his drinking buddies something like, "Don't you think Julie is acting abit crazy (controlling, whatever) demanding that I quit drinking?" They probably will defend his position. See what I mean?

I'm not suggesting you immediately end contact with everyone (not at all) but I am warning you to be very careful who you get your support and advise from. I might be wrong, but it sounds like a lot of the people in your life are touched by alcohol. The more you distance yourself from all of that the clearer things will get for you and the more productive alanon will be for you.

Does that make sense?

Well the friends thing is funny (not really) as most of them I no longer have any regard for. H is well aware that his "friends" aren't really friends & H knows that if he doesn't go to them he won't see them. Additionally, their "friendships" revolve around drunkenness & wannabe-rockstar-bands. These are people that came to DS's bday party. Not so much to support our family or share DS's special day, but instead they came, beer in trunk, ready for the "after party"...and promptly left after hearing there was to be none. Then we have the "Wives Club" as I refer to us, and yes, we'd all typically sit around & complain about the jacka*s moves our men had pulled last weekend or how sick of it we are...talk about an unhealthy environment! I haven't been close w/these women since the birthday party last year, mostly because they just don't get it. Their kids are young yet so I guess they're still telling themselves this is just a phase? I know better though. Anyway, I suppose I could have saved you a lot of reading by simply saying, you're right, and no I don't hang around any of these people anymore. Not since H left of course, and I'd been withdrawing for some time leading up to it. Best believe H is having the time of his life w/them right now though (or so he thinks?) but he doesn't talk R/M talk with them. Mostly because, like I said, he knows they don't really care!

You're not wrong SOT, and I'm hopeful for a few of the wives but in the meantime I've got work to do.

Here's the thread about the birthday party last year: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3142473

Julie

I went back and read your posts from a year ago. There were a lot of people helping to support you. There was alot of very good advice.

What happened after H went to the first meeting?

Is there more to that story?

How long or many meetings did he attend?

If he attended for any length of time a "seed" was planted. You may have a real ace in your hand with the situation now.

Did you attend Al-Anon for the past year?

All of these questions may give us better insight into your situation. We just want to help in any way possible.

Chris

Julie
Did you work this out through your intermediary or how is it that H did not take the kids? I thought you had a schedule? I thought in a past post you said you did not want to switch weekends? Did I miss something?


This was H's weekend w/the kids, but he doesn't have them. Today is a Packer game (we're in WI) & I don't know...is it the play-offs now? Anyhoo, H & DS are BOTH big-time Packer fans so they BOTH won't be missing this game. It only just occurred to me the reason H doesn't have the kids may very well be so that he doesn't have any interruptions - watching game or drinking thru its entirety. On one hand I'm glad he made the right choice per my PBL & kids best interest but on the other hand I'm sad that beer wins AGAIN - DS would LOVE to watch the game w/his dad. I've got lots of running around to do today plus I'm not football fan so DS is going to watch it w/his aunt who's very into it

Just wondering how this came about?

Chris

Hey nesre. There isn't a whole lot more to that story...H went to the one & only meeting. Those people weren't him. I tried to believe him when he said he could kick it on his own, I tried to trust him when he went to the bar & drank just Coke, (I know he only drank Coke once, though I bet the pot smoking was doubled-tripled-quadrupled). I did not attend Al-Anon meetings either. H stayed sober (no drinking, plenty of smoking though) for about a week, when a friend handed a beer & said, "don't worry, I won't tell" H took that beer, and told me about it. It snowballed from there. No seed was planted, because he is not those people.

RE: this weekend, yes, intermediary notified me H won't take them this weekend. Remember my post where I said I gave him the PBL & not even an hour later I got a text message? It was from the intermediary, stating H needed to switch weekends. I haven't OK'd next weekend just yet as I've got plans w/the kids, but I committed to giving intermediary an answer tonight. I didn't want to switch...but I don't really have a good reason not to so I'll accomodate.

Want to bounce something off you folks about a conversation I had with DD/11/previous relationship tonight. She was asking me about seeing H...

DD: Are we still going there this weekend?
Me: That's the plan, but you haven't said whether you're comfortable with that or not.
DD: Yea, I'm still not sure.
Me: Well, you've got time to decide.
DD: Are we going with him Wednesday?
Me: Yes, that's the plan, I haven't heard any different.
DD: Well, I think I'll just let (DS/8) go this weekend. I'll go Wednesday but not this weekend. I really don't support this 'getting his own place/being away from us/still drinking thing'
Me: I don't support it either. It's hard because I love him, but I hate what he's doing and what it's done to us. If that's how you feel I respect that. But if you make a decision it needs to be YOUR decision - not what you think will make Mom happy or what I'd want you to be doing.
DD: Yea, that's what I'm going to do.
Me: Are you planning to tell him this?
DD: Yea, I'll tell him on Wednesday

And then I went on to tell her to really think this thru, you've got time, and it's hard when you figure out you belive in something & you risk hurting somebody's feelings or having them mad at you. I then gave her an example of a situation I'm in right now w/someone else in my life that the kids are aware of. We pretty much ended it there as we were getting dinner ready & then we ate.

What do y'all think of this? I won't make her go but I'm worried she's trying to appease me. I was doing a little "victory dance" on the inside because I know it'll be a slap in the face to H if DD doesn't spend the weekend with him, but maybe one of those GOOD slaps in the face? Especially if she tells him? Not that this'll make him surrender to my PBL demands but if this is really how DD feels, that will be tough for H to swallow.

I worry that telling him in person may be too much pressure for her. Maybe she'll feel guilty & not say anything. Or maybe he'll manipulate her & she'll say, "OK, I'll come...". Should I offer to have the intermediary tell H that DD doesn't want to spend the weekend? It's not like DD can Plan B my H!

I just don't want DD to be in a situation that is too adult. Thoughts?

How long has she known him?

btw, I do like how you handled this with her. I would it would be terrible to put pressure on her.

Julie,

Keep in mind that this is just my opinion....

I am not so sure about the kids spending time at his place as in overnights...or even much time during the week.

How can you be sure that he won't get drunk with them there?

How can you be sure that his apartment isn't full of drinkers and smokers?

How can you be sure that they will be ok with him?

Would he drive while under the influence?

Maybe your presence was what was keeping that from happening at the marital home.

How can you be sure about them going over there?

committed

All her life. She's got 2 dads - the bio one who only lived here till she was 4 & then moved to FL & had another baby & is now not with that babymama either and sees her maybe 2x/yr, and H...who's been her constant since she was 10mos old.

Committed, you're too late!

I mean, your points are valid indeed, but I've already done the PBL & set up the intermediary & got our visitation schedule...and H is already upset he doesn't get them more often!

The truth is, I CAN'T be sure of any of those things. BUT, they are outlined in my PBL and I have some faith that H won't put them in danger. To be honest, I have NO IDEA where this apartment is - in the ghetto, in a skyscraper, 2 blocks over...I don't know!

I've told the kids the truth though, so they're def sensitive to the drinking. H's drinking has always been social. He's never been the one to drink alone so I cannot fathom him hiding liquor or sneaking it w/the kids. Even if he was stuck watching a game at home, he'd only have 2 beers cuz it just wasn't the same w/o his drinking buddies.

I don't think, legally, I have the right to withhold visitation!

The truth is, I CAN'T be sure of any of those things. BUT, they are outlined in my PBL and I have some faith that H won't put them in danger. To be honest, I have NO IDEA where this apartment is - in the ghetto, in a skyscraper, 2 blocks over...I don't know!

This needs to change. You should know where they are. You NEED to know where they are.

Even when couples are divorced they have to give that information to the other parent.

I'm sorry that I am too late. I would have surely brought this to your attention.

committed

Julie, your intermediary needs to find out where he lives and she should tell him that there will be issues if there is any drinking. The kids need to call you up if there is drinking, partying going on so you can come get them. I would coach them about this. And this won't be easy, because they probably think drunkeness is quite normal.

There...

What Mel said....

committed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can do that. I haven't asked where it is because to me, it doesn't matter in a sense that it'd get back to H & seem like I'm interested...for the wrong reasons, perhaps. Although he did ask me last week if I'd be able to pick them up, so I know he's not trying to keep that info from me. I haven't asked the kids any details from their visits. They haven't shared much.

I will coach the kids on drinking (again) and beat them over the head with NO DRINKING **OR** SMOKING while they're there. If so, call me & I come for you because it's NOT OK. DD will do it but DS will let him slide, if it were to occur.

No, they don't think drunkenness is quite normal. They know it when they see it, and they've never liked it. Again, DS will be the one I worry about not speaking up but DD won't have it.

Julie, I would ask the kids to tell you all about their visits so you can keep tabs.

I would drop the smoking thing, though.

Why would I drop the smoking thing? This is the second time you've told me that...why? Whether cigarettes or marijuana, #1 they won't necessarily know the difference and #2 second-hand smoke is damaging (especially in tighter quarters) and #3 the added inconvenience is just that, an added inconvenience! Why do you go easy on smoking?

Smoking is small potatoes that has nothing to do with this. You have REAL FISH to fry here. You can't make a spouse stop smoking. If that is an annoying habit of his, then that can be addressed in RECOVERY. But it has nothing to do with Plan B and nothing to do with the children's safety while they are with him.

Now, if he is smoking POT, they should call you to come get them.

Like I said, they won't necessarily know the difference! If I had to speculate, which I don't want to, I'd say he's MUCH more likely to smoke pot in their presence (in the bedroom or bathroom while they're in the other room or something) than he is to drink. Why? Cuz they recognize beer, not the differences in smoking! And it's pretty safe to say that if he smokes a cigarette, he'll smoke a bowl afterwards. That's him. Just sayin'

Now, back to my daughter please?! Or at least combine them? Should I have the intermediary tell H that DD isn't coming? Don't want to put her in a position to feel scared, guilty, pressured, OR where she can be manipulated by H.

Julie, you can't tell your kids to call you up if he smokes a cigarette. That is unreasonable. I can see it if he is smoking pot, but not a cigarette. If they see him smoking something OTHER THAN a cigarette, it would make sense to call you, I agree.

And I see no reason why the intermediary can't tell him your DD won't be coming. That way, he won't be surprised.

Alrighty then.

Goona ask interemediary where H's apartment is

Goona tell her this Fri-Sat no later than 4 is OK

Goona have her re-iterate that any drinking by H or friends around my kids will be trouble

Goona do it now

Great, he'll have them back by 2! And now I know where the apartment is, the general vicinity, I can picture them.

Ugh, this isn't working. His stupid band is "playing a show" Sat night (words I've grown to HATE) so he's going to dump them off extra-early so as not to be saddled too long. What's the point in even having them? Just to prove a point? This isn't working.

Whats wrong, Julie?

I just realized this is crap. I guess I'd forgotten that the past few days. Then I figured he's probably got some bar ho who's going to join or something, and he can't have that around my kids, so, the kids go back, life goes on for Mr. Rockstar...

I know it is crap. This is not a good situation, Julie, and there is no way to put a gloss on it. You don't know what he is doing, though, so imagining the very WORST is not helpful. But, just know this: if this marriage can be saved and stabilized, you are closer now to that than you were BEFORE.

This will get better for you the longer you are in plan B. Just ride this out, hon. It WILL get better!

Julie,

Agreed, it is not a good situation, but hang in there. When it all feels overwhelming let your mind take a break. Try to think clearly (hard, yes but try).

When I feel overwhelmed I try to look at my options...slide backwards and lose crediblity with the A, lose ground for my family and go back to the previous cycle that will NOT end until the drinking does....OR

1. Look at my options...see a lawyer so you KNOW what your rights are to protect your kids and your financial situation.

2. Stay COMMITTED to breaking this cycle.

3. Get to a meeting!

Keep focused, you're breaking the cycle. It IS hard.

Julie

Sot is right. You need to break the cycle and TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AND CHILDREN!!

THIS is where H is at right now. Without any of us even knowing you we have seen this all before.

AA Big Book Chapter 8 To Wives

The problem with which you struggle usually falls within one of four categories:

Type #1
Your husband may be only a heavy drinker. His drinking may be constant or it may be heavy only on certain occasions. Perhaps he spends too much money for liquor. It may be slowing him up mentally and physically, but he does not see it. Sometimes he is a source of embarrassment to you and his friends. He is positive he can handle his liquor, that it does him no harm, that drinking is necessary in his business.

He would probably be insulted if he were called an alcoholic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This world is full of people like him. Some will moderate or stop altogether, and some will not. Of those who keep on, a good number will become true alcoholics after a while.
Type #2
Your husband is showing lack of control, for he is unable to stay on the water wagon even when he wants to. He often gets entirely out of hand when drinking. He admits this is true, but is positive that he will do better. He has begun to try, with or without your cooperation, various means of moderating or staying dry. Maybe he is beginning to lose his friends. His business may suffer somewhat.

He is worried at times, and is becoming aware that he cannot drink like other people.

He sometimes drinks in the morning and through the day also, to hold his nervousness in check.

He is remorseful after serious drinking bouts and tells you he wants to stop. But

when he gets over the spree, he begins to think once more how he can drink moderately next time.

We think this person is in danger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

These are the earmarks of a real alcoholic.

Perhaps he can still tend to business fairly well. He has by no means ruined everything. As we say among ourselves, "He wants to want to stop."

By what you describe your H is between a #1 and #2. From your past posts a year ago when H busted up the house I would say into @2 somewhat.

These are the hardest types of A's to deal with. It is extremely hard to get this type of A to stop. It usually takes further spriral progression downward into a Type 3 or 4 before they are ready.
Your PB may wake H up or cause a long seperation but what is Julie doing to break the cycle?????????
If Plan B works and H wants to reconcile How are you going to deal with it?
It sounds like in the past Julie caved-H-made promises he did not keep. At this point will that work for Julie again?
I hope and pray for you and your children it will not work again.
THIS ILLNESS IS PROGRESSIVE AND FATAL.

Julie
You don't need your H's permission to go Al-Anon. Find a sponser. Break the cycle. He doesn't have to go to AA for you to belong TO Al-Anon. Al-Anon is especially just for you.

Does someone out there haves a better place she can go that would help her break the cycle???

Most of the posters to you have already said this in different ways.

In order to break the cycle your in ***Julie*** needs to take steps to do it with or without H. It needs to be done regardless if you reconcile or end up on your own. You two do share a child together so chances are that you will always need some type of communication-4-ever.
Even if you don't reconcile would you want to take a chance on a relationship in the future with another A? (VERY long range)

There is no "EASY" button that I have found and I believe most of us here only want the best for Julie and her children.

Get a lawyer so you know your rights
Secure XX # $ each month from H for child support
Stay on visitation schedule so Julie can plan for herself
Work the Al-anon program
Get an Al-Anon sponser

He left you didn't he? FOR _____________________you fill in the blank.

And nicey nicey Julie will accomodate Him..WHY?????

Sorry if this seems rough.

Chris

Julie

I was kinda rough on you in the post B4.

Hers what I will tell you about me as an active alcoholic up until 1986

In a blackout

Put wife against wall of house and put fist thru wall just inches from her head

Slammed her leg in the door of the car when she was getting out so hard I thought it was broke

Picked her up around the neck-held her against wall and stabbed a big butcher knife into the wall.

When I finally entered treatment all these things came out.

NO JOKE AND STILL TO THIS DAY I have no memory of them happening.

The potential for you to enter this type of situation is real. H has shown over a year ago where this could go.
Should you go to enough Al-Anon meetings you will here this question asked-HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN THE ACTIVE ALCOHOLIC IS LYING? ANSWER--HIS LIPS ARE MOVING.

ML/SOT/ME and others b-4 just want you to be very aware of the waters that you are treading in. It is not to be taken lightly. There is no easy 1 week fix.

Trust me I know-I was there-Trust me-Your H can relate to me.
My story may not be the same as his but on some levels we are very much alike.

One meeting is not going to tell H that he is not like "them".
THATS WHAT I WOULD TELL MY W IF I DIDN'T WANT TO QUIT DRINKING ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM afraid that Julie will do the same as she has done in the past and expect different results. When we do that it is termed as insanity.
Trying something different and expecting different results is sane.

Its only been thru working a program of recovery that I am not the same person I was then.

Thank God For That!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


If Julie works an Al-Anon program of recovery in a short time from now she will not be the same as she was.

Just something to think about.


Chris

Hey Chris,

Thanks for your post. You're right, my H is between the 2. His sense of entitlement prevents him from sneaking drinks.

Enough about all that though.

NO, I will NOT be nicey/nicey or let him back home w/o 90/90 at a minimum. NO, I WILL NOT change my mind like I did last time.

I think that's what's got me so scared. I know it's good, and I've been doing well, but for whatever reason I lost it a little bit last night. And, I suspect that'll be happening from time to time.

YES, I am going to break this cycle. I already did, I just need to stick with it, and I WILL. I told you, I promised my kids. That's all there is to it, really.

I wanted to bring fireblossoms update that she posted today over here but I can't seem to do it. Maybe one of you can help with that?

While FB specific problem is different than yours, there are MANY similarities because abuse is abuse. The point in this post is how far she has come in just two weeks completely away from the abuser. She is getting intensive therapy too but I think it makes a point. Alanon will get you there too Julie. Right now it should not be hit or miss...just go. Trust me and the others. It is like medicine, you just have to do it to get better.

Have you called any lawyers to see what your rights and options are?

I'm not sure I understand why the tone of many posts are as if I'm avoiding Al-Anon. I'm not. Granted, I haven't gone yet this week, but I've been going every week. I was hoping to go every day but I don't have someone to watch the kids every day (and the meetings I've been to/that are close by/in the time slots that work for me don't have child care!). When I can't get to a meeting, I post here or read materials. Not the same I know, but this isn't me dodging. Last night the kids & I turned off the TV, DND'd the phone, and read. DD & I read our Al-Anon/Alateen books, DS read a Science riddle book.

No I haven't called lawyers. My SIL, who went thru this w/my brother a few years back (they've since "reconciled") has advised me as to what she knows & I've got a bit more to go on.

As of today I...
*Know we'll be "OK" money-wise from MY paycheck, as the pay period ended today & I've hit my goal. It won't be a comfortable living, but our insurance, taxes, and basic bills will be covered.
*Changed my exemptions to maximize my earnings.
*Heard from a neighbor that H stopped by yesterday & tried getting in via the front door. Didn't get in, slammed the door, and left.

I haven't followed FB's post since the beginnings. I'll read up.

Just wanted to add I'm not intentionally being defensive or argumentative.

I know you are not trying to be defensive or argumentative but you are resisting some. That's your decision though.

I honestly didn't have a "tone" in my post about alanon. I just can "read" from miles away when someone NEEDS one, that's all, nothing more.

I am not trying to argue with you either, however, could you please explain your thoughts about why you haven't seen a lawyer? Honestly, there are many that would take an inital visit without a fee. There are also many resources available if you have a limited income. I would not take legal advise from ayone other than an attorney. I went through a divorce a long time ago, had no money, kids to feed and a lot of bills. There is no way that I would even be close to advising you. I am not qualified and neither is your SIL. Everyone's situation is different, people remember or interpret things incorrectly, etc. Again, it is your decision to make.

If H tried to get in the house, I would BET that he is close to his first attempt to break your plan B. Be warned and prepared for that.

It sounds like you think we are hounding you but we are just helping you. A lot of us are telling you the same thing. It might be worth taking a breath and thinking about the consistency of that advise.

Hang tough!

No, I don't think you're hounding me. From where I'm sitting, it seems like for the most part I'm doing pretty well but then you guys are throwing new stuff at me or in some cases the same stuff. That's what I came here for though.

After all of my fears or worries or concerns, honestly what has prevented me from seeing an attorney is time. I know that if I can't afford it I'll just walk out, and I know my SIL is the authority on nothing, but I had to leave 2 hrs early on Fri & 2 hrs early again on Mon & my boss is NOT pleased! I've taken a lot of time - time that I'd earned, but a lot of it - off in the 7 mos I've been there. I've got a little bit of time left but she's watching closely & although she's aware of my situation, she's also the manager of a sales organization so her #1 concern lies in Sales. My #1 concern does NOT lie in Sales, but I can't lose my job either. I can take a sick day in the next week or so but not now.

Kids are to go w/H tonight so I'll at least be able to attend a meeting!

It's new information for a new life! Honestly.

I agree you have to protect that job but be sure to find the time when you can take the day off. I thought I remebered that you were in retail? Do you work strictly 9 to 5? Just trying to help you work this out. It has to get done.

I am SO glad you will be able to go to a meeting. You will feel so much better

...and thanks for the warning about your suspicion of him trying to break Plan B. I'd like to bet you a can of soda that you're wrong, but I'd hate to come off as combative. Besides, if you're right, I'll actually appreciate it (the ATTEMPT) because it'd be nice to know he still cares. With success in no contact for this past week, it's hard to know for sure.

But keep in mind, he didn't finish getting stuff out so that's what I figure he came for. I'm actually planning to take DD's key today & tell her I just need to be sure she isn't conned into letting H in.

Julie
I read you are going to a meeting tonight.
Pick up the phamplet Alcoholism-A merry-go-round of denial. This peiece of literature is an excellent explanation of how the family relationship works in almost all forms of addiction.

If your group does not have it you could print it out from the link below.

When I recieved this I inserted the names of the "actors" (from my sit) right onto the paper and was able to see what each persons role was to support A behavior. I was then able to "disrupt" the play. When I changed then the others had to change.

This may work also for you. This is where a sponsor could really help you to identify each role in the play.

Remember-the goal of Al-Anon here is not to make H quit drinking/drugs. It is to provide Julie with an opportunity to "change the role she plays in the play".

Also attached a good post from MB about boundries. Instead of WS or Affair insert alcoholic.




http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/frie...med-denial.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=1&fpart=1


Hope you have a great day

Chris

Link to FB's post from yesterday

Her post is about half way down the page- Quite inspiring!!

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=1&fpart=12

Chris

What a trip! It's like I (we) don't even know this person! H called DD, whose keys I took so H couldn't con her into letting him in, and said, "go home & get dinner, I'm going to be really, really late" UGH! On HIS nights, shouldn't HE get off work or whatever on time, and HE should feed them dinner? Of course I will feed them dinner, but they can't even get into the house! (I work 5 min away, and they meet him @the library)

Maybe he's taken that second job? (Not bloody likely)

Maybe he's still trying to get in the house before I get home? (Can't happen, now NOBODY has a key!)

I am constantly being amazed here!

So DD calls me & says she told H they can't come home cuz I won't be home, and he says, "OK well I don't have any food OR money"

Woe is him, I've closed the bank account. Boo-hoo.

UGH, so they're home now, I'll feed them dinner. Not sure if I'll let them go still.

Julie
If this is the agreed to night H gets to see kids then let them go.
You may have to-through your intermediary and let H know what you expect.

"On the nights you have kids I expect you to feed them".

The other part is 100% self pity that HE wants you to buy..(no money/food)
Remember who chose this living arrangement.

H doesn't need to be scolded and this doesn't need to provoke a fight.

Thats exactly what H is looking for.

Is there a set schedule with PU and Drop off times?

If there isn't I would nail the times down so you can plan accordingly.

Chris

Yes, the set times are on the set schedule. So far he's moved the set weekend & now picked them up tonight, fed by me, an hour late.

So much for a "schedule"!

I don't feel a need to punish him & I didn't - we have NC, so I can't! Anyway, of course it was a ploy to get my pity & it partly worked: I did, after all, miss an Al-Anon meeting so that my kids wouldn't go hungry! He's supposed to have them (DS, as DD isn't going) all weekend this weekend, and is dropping them off at 2 on Sat! SOoooooooo.......so far this is pretty much about what is convenient for H.

Julie,

Donuts to dollars he has $ for alcohol and a bowl though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He is clear on priorities...and the kids aren't up there.

Rethink the amount of time that they will be exposed to him.

Write down on the calendar when he is late, when he returns them early, and when he doesn't show at all.

That way, you will have some idea of what you have to work with IF...IF...it goes to divorce court and he files for custody...whole or partial.

It is ludicrous to think that it will be granted...but it sure doesn't stop the neglectful parent from trying.

JMHO
committed

Well, his "friends" bring the beer & we've had the dealer on payroll for...what, 11 years now? So yea, I'm sure he's been fronted enough to get him by. Heh

BTW, kids understand that if someone has a beer in their hand or is seen smoking anything other than a cigarette that I get a phone call.

Well folks, here we have it. DD talked to H when he brought them both back. Her plan was to say, "I need to talk & I'd like it if you'd just listen" I told her that might work best because if he gets to interject, he will probably twist it all around & make her feel guilty. She was out there 10 min before I called her & told her it's time to come in, for bed.

She said she didn't have much of a chance because as soon as she said what she did, he started talking. She's only 11, after all! He told her he's not coming back because he always does things for me but I never do anything for him. He told DD he is not an alcoholic, that he does have control, and that he never drives drunk - always gets picked up/dropped off. <<Enter Shock #62 of 2008>> He almost ALWAYS drives drunk! I cannot believe he lied to her! But, like DD told me, I've been "letting" him do this all these years. Smart cookie, my little girl.

He also said that even if he wanted to come back, he can't, because he has to pay for his apartment till the end of the year. Lovely.

Well I thought I'd update y'all. Seems you're all out bowling or drinking or something. Have a good night. A new low has just, once again, been reached. This is my life. My poor children, they didn't sign up for this.

What a disgusting, vile human being. He lied to my little girl. For 11 yrs he assured her it would all be OK, and he has now sunk to lying to a child.

I'm feeling sick. I think I'll call in tomorrow. I can file for this divorce on my own. It's time to drop this anvil of a W. I officially loathe it.

Yep, I had my role too, but no more.

Julie,

I jut got home from work. Let me read your thread. I just read the last two posts and see just standard, run of the mill A talk.

Hang on

Julie, everything he did/said to your daughter is VERY typical. Blame shifting, no accountability, lying to himself and others...classic alcoholic behavior. I am not at all trying to minimize how this must certaily hurt and anger you, but it is what they do. That is why alanon spends MUCH time on detachment. It's a SKILL that you have to learn, in fact, there have been threads around here helping people with this as it applies to wandering spouse.

It should be in the books and literature you received at meetings (I hope they had them for you!) It's on line too, but those little books can DO MUCH for your spirits!

I don't know what to tell you about his lack of keeping the schedfule until a lawyer tells you what to do. But committed said everything I would have said to you...If it's his night, give it to him and WRITE IT DOWN! My lawyer told me to write everything down in a spiral notebook. We didn't have a PC back then but I have read other attys to say don't do it there. It's weaker in court because you can so easily edit. A spiral notebook where you keep notes of times, date, things he said. Trust me, if you ever have to battle custody issues or show his attitude about the kids, etc you will be glad you did it.

He's playing the blame game, classic!

Nesre, thank you for the link. I appreciate it. Also thank you so much for sharing your persoal history. I am sure that it was hard to do and I appreciate it. I told me A once, when we were working the steps, "You want me to forgive you for the things you did, but you don't even remember it!"

Take a breather Julie, THINK. Don't act out of emotion right now.

We're all still here pulling for you

He told DD he is not an alcoholic, that he does have control, and that he never drives drunk - always gets picked up/dropped off. <<Enter Shock #62 of 2008>> He almost ALWAYS drives drunk!

Which is the EXACT reason that the children should NEVER be with him overnight.

I am telling you...you can arrange for pickups and drop offs at the police station if so inclined. He drives up there drunk at anytime and he is gonna have to answer to someone.

I truly fear that something awful is gonna happen to your children Julie when they are with him. He CANNOT parent while he loves the bottle and the MJ more than them. He let you know that when he left the house. He CHOSE , and unfortunately he didn't make the choice that you wanted.

Nonetheless, it was a choice. He is telling you that he chooses to drink and smoke illegal drugs above the marriage and being a parent to your children. As hateful as it seems to keep the kids from him...it might be the best thing for them in the long run. He has been protected from the consequences of his actions so long that he most likely feels invincible. He is going to have to hit hard when he crashes and you do not want those children with him when it does happen.

Seriously think about changing that PlanB letter to not include anything about parenting time. It might be the catalyst that he needs to set this right.

I think that Mel had posted about "loss" and the alcoholic...he has to "lose" something to finally get it.

JMHO
committed

Thanks committed! This is one of the primary reasons I keep pesting and nagging about the lawyer. I had a mental list of things to suggest when that meeting takes place and that is top of the list!

Julie

So sorry for how it went last night.

H Putting DD into that position is vile and hurtful. As SOT1961 said-it is what alcoholics do. The “blame game” classic. Another version is the “shame and blame game” Your Al-Anon group can surely explain it to you or maybe you have already played it.

DETACHMENT IS THE GREATEST PRESENT YOU CAN LEARN FOR YOURSELF. It takes time and practice but will be the most effective survival tool you will ever have. It is the only way to win or at least keep your piece of mind at either of the two games mentioned above.
IT IS ABOUT THE ONLY WAY POSSIBLE TO KEEP FROM GETTING DRAGGED INTO THE FOG (distortion/exaggeration) WITH THE ALCOHOLIC..ITS what PLAN A is about in an A.

All DD needed to know is he loves her and the reassurance this has nothing to do with her. It was just wrong to lay adult stuff like this on a young child.

Question:
You have an intermediary-Why did H call DD to reset the schedule? I am not saying this is right or wrong but IMO- shouldn’t this go through the intermediary? Then to You? You are the adult.
Isn’t part of the PBL to remove the easy access to the W or family by WW/ADDICT?
VETS COMMENTS?

Commited is right
He has been protected from the consequences of his actions so long that he most likely feels invincible. He is going to have to hit hard when he crashes and you do not want those children with him when it does happen.


and H is reinforcing how he feels about M and relationship w/kids even further with changing schedule twice and dragging DD into grown up stuff/lying.
Actions speak way louder than words

As long as H uses a/d ---a/d will always win. Much the same if a WW won’t quit an A after a good PLAN A. Then PB needs to be used.
.
Tighten up the PBL-Whats H gonna do? Tighten up or leave out visitation with kids. Do you really believe He will get a lawyer?
H probably does not want a lawyer at this point b/c of child support but.............

COULDN’T THIS TRIGGER A CUSTODY STUDY????
Not sure of your state laws-
Would this be to JULIE AND KIDS benefit.?

A



LAWYER



COULD



TELL


YOU

JMO-H’s head may already be starting to spin with how am I gonna get out of this one?

Has Julie always cleaned up after H’s messes and H expects the same this time?

Consequences for H’s choices would be new and different.


Chris


FWH 49 –1986 Revenge A
Went thru A/CD treatment in 1986-Stayed sober-Started Recovery in 2002
Using the MB principles to help both my recoverys
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1985/1986 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-
Mutual agreement to get back together
Went thru A/CD treatment in 1989
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006?
Active (1999) Alcoholic after 10 yrs sober
Went thru A/CD rehab 12/2006-Sober and miserable most days
May still be EA?-OM lives close by
M is still most days a mess
Still Trying to put it back together

Julie--

I have been following your thread, and also have a H that has had 3 EAs in the past-- and I believe is an alcoholic. Some of the things you have written break my heart.

In the interest of full disclosure, I did also have an A myself (one of his three EAs would technically be considered a "revenge A"-- I suppose-- the other two were prior to mine, and I didn't find out about them until after mine). The EA part of mine lasted about a year, and the physical part only happened once, and we never actually slept together.

I am still trying to learn. Haven't gone to ala-non yet. Marriage is a mess. I honestly think some days it may not survive this mess. The As are enough to deal with, his drinking only makes it worse. He plays the classic blame games-- everything is my fault, I made him this way, etc.

I don't have any children, thankgod. And I really feel for yours-- but you are being a great mother protecting them.

Just wanted to say that I've been following along. I'm still trying here, stuck in some weird mode because I'm plan A'ing HIM... even tho we've both had A's and he's the alcoholic... he's plan FU... but he's taking advantage of me and drinking a lot (in addition to taking some vicodin)... he wants to give up on us... doesn't know if he wants this marriage... and all the problems in it are my fault. I think we could focus more clearly and decide on this marriage bit if he'd stay sober occasionally.

Like your hubby-- mine also drives a lot when he shouldn't. I'm waiting for the day I get the call from jail. And the funny thing is-- he has a profession where if he gets caught with a DUI his career is pretty much over. (He's actually very successful). But he still drinks... even that isn't enough for him to stop at least the drinking and driving part...

He's still very much in denial that he even HAS a problem. He thinks it is perfectly normal to come home from work and drink 6-8 beers before bedtime and then become this angry mean Mr. Hyde person (was that the mean guy?)

He had issues with drinking prior to my A though... although, I will admit this situation has considerably made the problem worse.

Stay strong. I am learning from you. I need to get to ala-non, but I am a little scared. And a little scared on how he'll react. He still denies he has a problem... or that he needs any help.

RIM

REM

Just caught your post
There are online meetings and I would post the address if you like.
I don’t know if they are as good as F2F meetings but may help.

Plan A'ing an addict is rewarding "bad behavior"

Al-Anon will teach you the skills it takes to be in a relationship specifically with an active addict.

MB's principles usually doesn't work until the addict is in recovery.

In recovery the addict hopefully develops the empathy required to be in a healthy relationship.

Dr Harley wrote
When an alcoholic is married to a loving and caring spouse, the spouse's love and care is sucked in like a black hole. It drains the caring spouse of everything they have, leaving him or her not only exhausted, but also having failed to meet their sick spouse's needs. In these cases, the non-alcoholic spouse must emotionally detach themselves or becomes emotionally destroyed

Chris

Hey everyone, thanks for keeping this alive. I've been in bed literally ALL DAY and am heading back shortly - I'm so cold but I'm sweating, can't eat, sore throat...

Anyhoo, unfortunately I took the day off but didn't go or call ANYBODY. We'll see what tomorrow brings.

I'm interested to see if H gives me money this weekend. If not, it'll be the extra push I need to get the atty.

FYI, I actually "put DD in an adult situation" and if H would have just kept his mouth shut as she asked, it would have been fine. She made a decision & wanted to share it w/him. I offered for her to have intermediary tell H she doesn't want to do over-nites w/him, but she wanted to do it on her own. I let her have that.

Good point too about the schedule conflicts & calling DD. I'll have intermediary tell him it ALL needs to go thru her, not the kids. That's all I can think of for now.

RIM, I've been keeping up w/you too, weren't you quite the pot head yourself? (No offense) I know what you're saying when you say you're scared to go to Al-Anon, I was too, and H kinda laughed at me. The first meeting is the hardest, believe that. I think you'll see after the first though, that for reasons you may not even fully understand, you're going to want to go back.

Thank you Chris, and yes, I would appreciate the link.

It does seem he is unable to have any empathy. Please look at my most recent post on my thread from last night and today (I don't know how to do the fancy link thing... sorry, you'll have to dig it out, its the only thread by me, and shold still be on the first page).

He just this past weekend lied to me about vicodin... and then when I found it (and his lies) and took it off of him, he then stole it back from me. I don't know what he's done with it now. I haven't confronted him on any of this yet.

I guess part of my problem... which is outlined on my thread, is I am not sure if he is actually an alcoholic or not. I know he drives when he shouldn't. I know he drinks an awful lot-- or what I think is an awful lot. Just about daily. More often then not. And some evenings can have 6-8 drinks. He's not the David Hasselhoff, crawling on the floor burbling weird stuff drunk... he's usually completely conscious, and completely lucid (or appears so). But.. with each drink, his propensity to explode in anger and be very mean, demeaning, demoralizing person increases. It doesn't happen everytime he drinks. Only sometimes. But-- since my A, I'd say more often than not (although it certainly happened before my A too... I can go into specific instances, but it would only belabor the point... the point is, there were incidents before the A). Its like now he has to drink... not to the point of oblivion... but just to a point where he can "function" anymore-- and deal with life. He uses it to run from his problems rather than confront them. The amount he drinks DIRECTLY corresponds to how upset he happens to be. He gets upset, he needs a drink to deal with it. And now he's got his hands on vicodin from a dear "friend" (see my thread).

And he's in denial... a lot of it. And he's constantly (both before my A and after) being a very, very mean person... and then later on completely ignoring it... as if it never happened.

He lied to me about the vicodin... and then STOLE it back off of me... and hasn't said A WORD about it yet. Not a word. As you can see on my thread, I am really not sure what to do about it. This kinda came as a shock for me because I thought both he and us were somewhat healing recently.

Please see my thread... you don't have to see the whole thing, really just focus on probably the last 2 pages of it to get the idea. But the entire thread is speckled with his issues and problems with alcohol and anger management and the toll it has taken on our relationship...

Thanks for the reply Chris, and I'd appreciate that link.

RIM

And Julie-- no the pot head wasn't me. I've only tried pot once in my life, actually, haha. I'm pretty squeeky clean :-).

RIM

RIM, of course I don't know if your husband is an A or not, but your description of him is perfectly classic. There are different groups that define this deferently but basically it comes down to whether or not your life is being controlled with alcohol. A lot of people think they have to be a falling down drunk, drinking a bottle out of the bag on the curb to be an alcohlic. Absolutely false! In meetings there are doctors, lawyers, teachers, you name it. Alcohol does not care one bit about what title, degree or other successes hang on your wall.


Some of the questions are, do you take greater and greater risks to continue drinking (loss of career, driving drunk, driving kids drunk or buzzed, etc)

Whenever a newcomer arrives, we all remember our first night. It is so hard. I pretended to go to my first couple. I drove there, sat in the parking lot, drove around the block again...just found it to be the hardest door to walk through. When you finally go in, remember that every single person greeting you has been there and is probably remembering it too. After that, it gets so much easier and you will wonder what you ever were afraid of. For me, part of it was actually being willing to go outside my house and say to someone that my H was an A. Afterall, we co-dependents are SO good and covering and hiding for our alcholics (and in the process we are aiding and abetting).

We need Mel here about your plan A. You just CANNOT plan A an alcoholic!!!

Julie I am sorry that you are sick and I am sure you are probably worried about the boss on that one. I do hope you feel better tomorrow.

You commented about hoping your H puts money in the account. Your money situation is also on my list when you can get to a lawyer. I am NOT bugging you...I know were sick! I am hoping that a lawyer will be able to get the visitation squared away (with the law, not a plan B letter, prohibit him from EVER driving under the influence with the kid (maybe not letting him be alone with them? and a court order to make payments. This should give you much more security and peace and really tighten things up for him.

Just my thoughts. Get well

I'm going to send intermediary an email. It will say:

I need to know when/where H is planning to pick up DS today.
I need money.

Those are the only 2 things that come to mind/need clarifying right now. SOT, no, I'm not waiting to see if H puts money in the bank acct - he can't, it's closed. He'll have to actually get the cash to me and yes, I'm waiting to see if he will...so maybe I shouldn't have intermediary ask about money just yet.

On the attorney, do you think I should give intermediary/H the heads-up? Or should it be a surprise? Probably surprise, since I don't know for sure I can afford such a service right now, and I can't be issuing empty threats.

OH, the cell phone, I was going to bring up the cell phone. We have a family plan - 1 for me, 1 for H, 1 for the kids. I paid that bill last week & I can't really cut H's line but I do believe I can suspend it. On one hand, I don't want to because it's how he keeps in touch w/the kids but on the other hand, he put in $350 & spent over $600, so he hasn't contributed at all, plus if that's his only phone he's likely going to land me in the red on our calling plan!

I should suspend his line, huh?

The answer is obvious. I can do it today. He'll obviously grow very hateful though. Tell me something about that, please.

When does he get paid? Has he paid any of your bills? Contributed any money at all?

By my calculations he should be getting paid today. The only money he "contributed" was 2 wks ago when he put in $350, but days later what he'd taken out (including check to cover rent) was over $600.

So, would he normally deposit his pay into your account so you can pay bills, etc?

?? We're not normally separated?

When all is "normal", yes, he normally deposits his check. He can't do that now anyway, since that (joint) acct is closed.

How will he get you the money for the bills? Do you have a plan for this?

NO! That's why I came here saying I'm going to tell intermediary I need money...

Remember, in our last conversation 1/9, H said to me, "I'm going to keep giving you money, no need to get attorneys involved, I'm not sure what my next check will look like so I can't say a set amount, but I'm going to be helping..."

See, he's self employed. Contracts most of his work thru the same guy, his "boss", but he's not on payroll, he's an independent contractor. I fear this can really hurt me in setting up an arrangement, especially if it goes by income. Anyway, I need money. That's for sure.

Try fitting in a couple of calls to some family law attorneys today to find out if they can work with your schedule, have free inital consultations.

And no I would not tell H or IM about it.

Mel-- If you're hanging around here, I would appreciate some comments on my thread... if you've got experience in this alcoholism/A mess I've got going here.

Long story short... H has had a problem with alcohol for awhile. He was out of town a lot in the beginning of our marriage. Had 2 EAs while out of town (he lies a lot to cover his own [censored], so these may have been also PAs but I have no way to confirm that at this point). I did not know of these EAs. I had a PA myself (the P part was only once, and I did not sleep with OM-- not that that makes it better, but just to put in context). The EA part of my A lasted almost a year tho. I told H about my A after the PA part happened, all on my own (he didn't even suspect at that point, guilt killed me). After I told him tho, it was hard for me to break away from the EA part. I eventually did that this past summer. I did move out of the house for about 8 months, but frequently spent nights at home with H. He also had a "revenge" A while I was moved out-- it was only an EA, but I think that was more because of OW than it was because of HIS morals... he was essentially dating her.

OK-- so mixed in ALL of this is his alcoholism. Which was there BEFORE my A, but has gotten worse since. At this point in time, I am home, he has essentially all but given up on the marriage and "doesn't know what he wants" and "doesn't know if he feels the same way about me" and pretty much blames all of our problems on me. I am doing a Plan A right now. I'm learning about boundaries and what I should do with this mess. I'm really at a loss as to what I should be doing to try to fight for this and give it a chance.

I feel like one or the other is hard enough to deal with, let alone As and alcoholism at the same time...

Mel-- if you're floating around I'd appreciate some comments on my thread. Really the last 2 or 3 pages from the past few days are the most relevant, but my first post has the entire "story".

And Julie-- sorry I sort of hijacked your thread there for a bit. Hope you are doing well.

RIM

Hey SOT, I'm going to make those calls. Today.

If you have a chance, let me know what you think: do you think I should have IM tell H I need money? Still giving him the chance to "do the right thing"? He will be picking up DS today so the opportunity to make the exchange exists.

RIM, back to your corner! Er, I mean thread! My H isn't an alcoholic either...he earns his right to drink, he deserves to blow off steam, he doesn't want to be couped up in this house all the time/wants to "go have a few beers" w/his "friends"...and he DOES have control - he wasn't blacked out on the drive home, he only kicked the mailbox cuz he was mad/not drunk, he's just a "binge drinker". Though he's NEVER tried to come up w/a good excuse for mistaking certain parts of the house for the bathroom. I can't believe I typed that. This (was) my life.

BLAH BLAH BLAH...if it's not a problem then it wouldn't be a problem. But it's a problem.

ok, gotcha, my memory is slipping. I would not allow him to make your support contingent upon sporadic income. [your need for income is not "sporadic" but static and no court in the land is going to put up with that] I would have the intermediary tell him something like this:

Dear Joe, Julie has asked me to tell you that she will need $300 per week in order to maintain the bills and support the kids. You had indicated in your previous email that you are willing to continue to give her financial support for the household and the kids and she appreciates that. She is grateful that you are volunteering so she does not have to go through the courts.

Could you please make arrangements to leave her a check every Friday in the amount of $300?

Appreciate it, Joe.

Sally Intermediary

You do good work, Mel! Thanks for that.

Again, this will make him more hateful towards me. But the "hidden threat" in there is good. IM is his sister & this will make her itch too, I'm sure, but I've got a back-up so if she quits or I need to "let her go" I won't be left out in the cold.

Julie

Your only asking H to be responsible like he said he would.

Moving out was H choice.

That does not relieve him of responsibility.

He Could have made a different choice.

Chris

But you won't know because you are in Plan B! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Is his sister able to be entirely neutral about this situation? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

That's a good question. She's sworn since the onset of this (before H left or I gave him the letter) that she can be, but I don't always trust that considering she is, after all, his sister. She is VERY attached to him but has so far been very supportive of me/my kids. H's mother is NOT at all capable. I do have a back-up IM but H doesn't know that/I didn't put it in my PBL...

His sister wouldn't be my first choice but we all know my mom was the WORST choice. That's just the problem Mel, EVERYONE in H's life right now (except me) is his enabler! I do believe if I asked her to relay exactly what you wrote she'll do it. But he will most likely complain and/or...I don't know, but she's his sister.

Here's her (H's sister/our IM) response to my last email in which I told her H lied to DD & I may call on her later to help with money matters:

"I hear ya on the financial strain. Not easy handling stuff all alone. I hope he sticks with helping you. Ahh, the joys of single parenting! I'm sure it'll be a long time until I can rely on (her Babydaddy) for anything. Yes, that sucks that (H's) relationship with (DD) is going to suffer because of this. I hope that doesn't last. She needs him."

My response was: "I'm not a single parent, (IM)"

Her latest response:

"My personal feelings/thoughts/opinions having nothing to do with being the "middle man". I told both of you, I will not include any sideline commentaries when it comes to that. I have listened to you, I have listened to him. I've gotten "both sides". I'm in no position to judge either of your choices because I haven't walked in either of your shoes. I am perfectly capable of putting my personal feelings aside (all of which I would like to keep to myself) to assist you guys through this. I am concerned about how both of you are doing, because I love you both, and I'm concerned about how all of this will affect/has affected the kids. So I will inquire. What I won't do is give advice, or jump on either's bandwagon, because I've agreed to be neutral...and that's what I'm doing."

I want to ask her if she believes/accepts that H has a problem, an addiction, but I pretty much think that doesn't matter. When I talk to her as his sister, I want her to know he is SICK. When I talk to her as intermediary, I realize that doesn't matter. So I need to make sure I continue to make the separation too. I think we're OK.

<Tap, tap>

Is this thing on?

Julie

Hope you have a good weekend and feel better.
Its the week end-Not supposed to be sick-
Hopefully you and the kids can Have some fun!

Prayers for your family

Chris

What about the cell phone?

Mel: in WI, LSA & divorce are esentially the same thing. The only difference being that, in the end of an LSA, you aren't divorced. Weird. For $2K down & $265/hr, I can get this started right away! Sure, but my mortgage is 18 days late! So anyway, that's that. I think my best bet is to file on my own. Though my first next move needs to be getting money out of H...NOW!

So you contacted attorneys today? Did any of the offer a free consultation?

I found this by googling legal aid in WI:

http://www.wisbar.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Wisconsin_Legal_Services_Agencies

My free consult was via telephone, and what I got out of it is what I just posted! (Not much)

How many did you call? Did they all operate the same way?

Mel, could you ask Mr. W if he would come over here and lend a hand, please???? I know he practises in another area of law, but maybe he could help out in general terms.

Thanks!

Well folks Ima just keep posting...

DD & I just got done re-arranging the basement. DS is w/H overnight. The basement was always H's domain - his workshop, tv, drums & chair/loveseat are/were down there. He was only ever allowed to smoke in the basement. Honestly, for years I've kept in the back of my head what I'd do w/the basement if he ever left, and tonight we did just that. Some of the drums are still here so I moved them to the side (OK I DRAGGED them, I couldn't resist) and set up a little TV room for the kids & we moved their air hockey table down there too. It's weird, there were quite a few triggers down there but I did OK, but I realized that H has always had his own apartment. It's just that for the past 10 yrs, it's been in the basement.

What's next is even weirder...I've been thinking, and I just don't want to start up w/an attorney. H came & went when he picked up DS & no money was exchanged, my mortgage(s) is late, and I haven't got it all figured out yet, but I just don't want to go there. This "Plan B" is going TOO well for me - no contact has been attempted (now who is it that owes me a soda?) and I just don't want to take it there. NOTHING about the H that currently exists appeals to me, but I don't want to give up. And I fear that having an attorney contact him or draw something up will be the final push. I'm not ready. I'm as dark as I can get, it's been 3 weeks, now how do I get my husband back?

Julie, you can't have your H back unless he agrees to the terms of your letter. That is all up to him, NOT YOU.

Secondly, if you don't file for D and get some legal protection, you may lose your house. It looks to me like your H does not intend on paying your bills and that presents a huge problem. You say you "aren't ready;" well, are you ready to lose your home? A divorce can be STOPPED, but losing your home from foreclosure cannot be undone.

By not filing for D and forcing him support his family, you are training him to be a BUM. That is in NO ONE's best interest. If you avoid filing D because you have irrational fears about "pushing him away" you will be ENABLING HIM to be a bum and putting your own security at risk.

If you file for D and get your legal protection in place, your H will still have an opportunity to meet the conditions of your PBL and you can stop the D. That opportunity has not been removed.

Remember the goal here: to PROTECT YOURSELF while doing the best thing for your marriage.

OK, but I'll have to do it on my own! C'mon...I can't spell it out any more plainly than...I don't have $2K+! I'm seeing other threads here of people having gotten their D papers filled out, by hand, by the WS. I understand that the attorney adds a little more "scare"/real factor, but if I'm going to borrow money it's going to be to bring me current, not pay an attorney for what will hopefully end up all for not!

Just figure it out, Julie. Do what you have to do to get your H to pay the bills.

Have you called Legal aide?

I did not get thru to Legal Aide. I will try them on Mon during my lunch. Today is my "last chance" to get money out of H when he drops off DS. Fingers tightly crossed...

Don't be afraid of filing for divorce, Julie. If he wants to come back and meet the conditions of the your letter, he won't let that stop him.

OK. "Maybe THAT will be the REAL PUSH he needs..."

Thing is, we keep saying that. I'm still fighting for somebody who doesn't want me!

We will see!

Julie, you can go to divorcenet.com and search for your state. You can purchase the papers to file from them. Then you just follow the instructions. You only need to do the most basic information to get it on file. You can always go back and amend it with more information if you need to (maybe by then you can afford an attorney or you can drop the suit). Your main concern at the beginning is to get temporary orders in place to protect you financially. Here are some FAQ concerning WI divorce law written by a WI law firm:

1. How do I begin divorce proceedings?

To begin a divorce, you must file a Summons and Petition for Divorce. Your spouse must be served with this Summons and Petition for Divorce within 60 days after you file. You can file a motion with the Court asking that this 60-day deadline be extended but it would be up to the judge assigned to your case whether or not to extend this deadline. There are two ways you can serve papers on your spouse: (1) Your spouse can sign an Admission of Service or (2) a process server or police department/sheriff's department can serve the papers.

2. What do I do if I am served with divorce papers?

You must file a written Response and Counterclaim within 20 days from the date you are served with the Summons and Petition for Divorce. This must be sent to the Court with a copy sent to your spouse or his/her attorney. If you do not file a written response, the Court could enter a default judgment against you in the future. If you want the divorce as well, you should also file a Counterclaim for Divorce. This means that if your spouse changes his/her mind in the future and asks that the divorce be dismissed, the Court could deny that request and grant you a judgment of divorce instead on your counterclaim.

3. What if I don't want a divorce?

In Wisconsin, we have a "no fault" state. The only grounds for a divorce is irretrievable breakdown or an inability to repair the marriage. Because it takes two willing people to have a marriage, the Court will most likely grant a judgment of divorce even if only one party wants the divorce as long as one party testifies that he or she feels that the marriage is irretrievably broken and that the marriage cannot be repaired.

4. How long does a divorce take?

There is a 120-day waiting period in Wisconsin during which your divorce cannot be finalized. Most divorces take between six months and one year to finalize although it can be longer if there are contested issues.

5. How do I support myself or see my children while the divorce is pending?

In most cases, temporary orders need to be set which are effective during the time it takes to complete your divorce action. These temporary orders could cover custody, placement, support, maintenance, temporary use of personal property and/or bank accounts, temporary use of the marital residence, and temporary allocation of debts. While these orders are temporary and should have no bearing on the final outcome of your divorce, in reality, many courts continue temporary orders as permanent orders if they appear to work (i.e. placement schedules).

6. How do I obtain these temporary orders?

To request temporary orders, you must file an Order to Show Cause for Temporary Orders and Affidavit for Temporary Orders. These documents compel your spouse's appearance at a first or temporary hearing which is almost always scheduled before a court commissioner rather than a judge. This first or temporary hearing is usually scheduled within four to six weeks of the date you request a hearing.

7. What if I don't like the court commissioner's decision?

If you do not agree with the court commissioner's orders at this first or temporary hearing or any other hearing before a court commissioner, you may request a Hearing De Novo before the judge assigned for your case. A Hearing De Novo is a hearing where the judge hears the matter as if it had not been heard before and is not supposed to give any deference to the court commissioner's decision.

8. What if my spouse leaves me for someone else or is living with someone else?

Because Wisconsin is a "no-fault" state, one party's infidelity is irrelevant for most issues. The court cannot consider this fact in dividing property awarding maintenance, setting support or other financial matters. It can impact on custody and placement issues, however, if this significant other has a negative or harmful impact on the minor children.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, PrincessMeggy! You are peach! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well that does it, I am shaking with rage. You could not have told me how ANGRY I'd be! Response came in from IM RE: money, which I actually determined to be $250/wk. "He says he cannot afford that. He will give you 50% of his check once he gets on his feet."

SHOCK #84 of 2008.

Duh, he's NEVER going to be "on his feet" at the rate he's going/not working. OH yes, I will be filing, for sure. I have NO idea how I will put groceries in my fridge this week, DD & I are gathering old clothes for the resale shop, and he's dropping DS off EVEN EARLER than planned all in preparation for his grand event this evening. I think I might sell those drums & anything else of his I can find around here.

OH MY GOSH I am angry.

Oh Julie, that's terrible but not surprising. That's why you need to get his butt in court ASAP so he doesn't have the choice of whether he can "afford" to support his family. I understand you're scrounging to get money just to live at this point, but seriously, if you can drum up the money for the filing, I would do it ASAP. Legal aid will do it for free but if it's anything like my town, there's a waiting list.

(((Julie)))

P.S. Sell the d*mn drums!

Cell phone: cut

There's a pretty nice ladder here too. Some windows, sky-lites, left overs from jobs. Thing is, I don't think I can legally sell anything. I can cut that phone though...with the quickness.

OK folks I hope you're still with me, been quite the morning...H just dropped DS off & gave me an envelope. 'Course I'd hoped it'd be money but indeed it is not. It's a letter. I REALLY want to read it. Can I read it? I'm sure I'll just end up crying more but since I'm already filing, what worse could be in there? My only alternative is to have IM (H's sister) read it & I'm not sure that'll do much good. Can I read it & then pretend I didn't, and have IM return it to him, saying to refer back to the PBL?

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to read it.

I read them. I've got things to do.

You are not yet divorced, nor filed. You can sell anything you want - including the drums. Get on Craigs List - advertise this way - "Deadbeat husband's stuff - need to keep a roof over the heads of his wife and children - so I'm selling the drums - I need $xxx to pay the mortgage - any little bit will help.

The free advertising on both issues will add to the much needed exposure this man needs. Do not enable him by keeping his secret that he's neglecting his family in favor of the OW called BOOZE!!!!!

See if there isn't enough there to feed your family cover the cost of the divorce and pay the mortgage.

BTW, I found a lawyer when I was going through this that wanted $500 for the filing fee and $200 - he figured we didn't have much stuff to settle, so he could do it for that little.

Aw, what they hay, you're all I've got. 2 letters, here's the 1st:

Dear Julie, I am writing you this letter with the hopes that you'll read it. With an open mind, just as I did with the printout you gave me (my PBL). I am very aware of my problems and have never tried to downplay or deny them. But, I feel you haven't been honest with yourself about your fault in this break-up is. You must understand taht I have loved you with all of my heart for 11 years but, I reached a breaking point. Your obsessiveness has done more than drive a wedge. It made me think that I had to go outside our marriage to get what I needed. Inattentive, obsessive, distant, self-conscious, narcicistic, dependent on me, and a low sex-drive are the traits that made my decision easier. I am not writing this to make you feel bad. I think you need to own up and realize this was a two-way street, and I am the one who chose to leave. You did not throw me out. I can't imagine that it makes you feel better knowing that you are denying our children the right to speak to me. If you say that I am a good father, why won't you let me be one? Ignoring my calls is not only childish it hurts very bad. For 2 weeks now (DD/11) has been under the impression that I left so I could drink. We both know that is only part of the reason. So while it is not my place to discuss your problems with her, I would appreciate it if you would. She deserves to know the truth, and I don't deserve to be the scapegoat. We both f*_-ed up up and we both are not going to change. Regardless of that, I am committed to being the best dad I can be. I always have been that way. I hope one day we can talk face to face and maybe make peace with this. Love, H

In Plan B you really shouldn't have read the letter but since you did, what did it say? The only response to it should be if he is willing to meet your conditions.

Good idea from Kayla about Craig's List. That's a quick way to get your hands on some $$. Why couldn't you sell the left over items from jobs? Do they belong to someone else?

#2:

I cannot give you any money today. I have not been paid. I also haven't worked much in the last 2 wks. I will give you 50% of my checks when I have enough to pay rent. I cannot give you $1000 a month. Maybe you will have to live without cable and internet for a while. Sorry but, things are a lot worse here.

Hold onto this. You now have it in writing that he admits that part of the reason he left was so that he could drink. That will hurt him in the long run. The Courts will frown on this, especially since he has $$ to continue to drink. Otherwise, ignore this letter. He's just trying to guilt you for his actions.

Should I tell IM I won't read it? She can have it? Remind him to refer to PBL/not send me letters? Or just store it someplace safe?

zero response, except to get those ads on craigs list - you are far to focused on him to be in a true plan b so far.

Your only job today is to get stuff sold.

OH, there goes the kids' cell phone now. I'M ignoring it, but little does H know, THEY are busy, GOING TO TOWN turning Dad's "old space" into THEIR "new space"!

I chuckle. Narcicistic

I know your angry and hurt. But I hope you're not encouraging the kids to get revenge on their dad or badmouthing him to them. One of the reasons for Plan B is to PROTECT the love that you have left for WH. You should be protecting THEIR love for him too by keeping them out of it (except to explain that what daddy is doing is wrong and that you hope he'll get help).

You do what you need to do for your family, selling the things you need to sell, cutting off the cell phone (for cost reasons), filing for divorce (to protect yourself legally and financially), etc. but don't get into a revenge game. You'll only hurt yourself and your kids. KWIM?

Thanks PM, I needed that sanp back to reality. I WAS getting a little carried away. I just told DD I'm probably going to sell the drums for money & she said, "well, he took money we need, so it's only fair". But I'll go back & let her know I hope he gets help & that we love him.

It's tough to balance.

FYI, FWIW, I DID tell my kids I have issues/problems that I need to fix/work on, and that I am.

did your intermediary give you that letter?

Julie, has he not been able to see the kids in that long? Has some arrangement been made that allows him to spend time with the children? I've tried to catch up with your thread and may have missed where you had discussed this.

You're welcome. I just saw myself in what you were saying (I was soooooo sooooo bad - not MB at all!). I just want you to be spared the unnecessary pain of having to go down that path and then finding your way back.

Ask your intermediary to not send you anything that he sends UNLESS it is in accordance with your PBL. Intermediaries act as "SPAM filters," allowing only communication that fits the boundaries set forth in Plan B to be passed on.

She should not share any other info he sends, regardless of how benign the content. She can tell you that he sent something, but that is all. What she should do is thank him for his communication, but let him know that according to your letter, you won't be reading it.

Ask her to SAVE the emails and you will read them at a future time. Don't tell her, but you may need them for future use in court as PrincessMeggy suggested.

The key is for her to be very consistent and not allow him to push this boundary.

Mel, IM didn't give me the letter, DS/8 did. There are/probably will be no emails, they're hand-written.

Graplin, he's seen them. 1/9 was 1st "arranged" visit per our every Wed. agreement, and every other wkend which was this weekend but DD won't go. DS asked to come home early cuz he was bored.

PM, good save. I called a "meeting" with my kids, which I cried my way thru, but told them I'm hurt but I'm not mad. I said H is sick - so sick that he says he's not sick, and that makes me sad, and I hope he gets better. I may sell his stuff, not cuz I'm mad but because I need $ & he isn't giving me any. I told them I'm cutting off his phone for money reasons. I told them we are all going to continue to get help (Alateen) and I hope H gets help, and that he re-joins us & we can be a family again. I made it clear to them that I have issues/problems & I'm working on them. They understood. DD didn't cry, DS did. I told them I am going to be OK, even though I'm very hurt & crying.

Now I walk away from this box.

gotcha. How about next time just sticking it in an envelope and not reading it? [but save it for court in case you need it]

Your intermediary should contact him TODAY and tell him that you will not read any letters sent by the kids and to send all information through HER, so she can screen it. That will train him to stop using the kids as mediums and to use her.

That was great with the kids. You just scored big with them in the fact that you were willing to admit your own stuff and encouraged them about what's going on. As teens, they may not tell you that now, but later on in life they will.

Mel's right you know about the letters. He did a end-run on you. Use your intermediary. She could have just told you: No money coming right now... same old excuses. The only communication you care about hearing right now is that he is willing to meet your terms.

Scoring big...I could use somma that right now! H's cell phone: dead.

Y'all think I should send the family (mostly H's, as I don't have much around) an email that he's out of the house? No not to be vengeful or to put H on the spot but I got a call from H's eldest sister today & got the "well nobody tells me anything". When this all began I emailed H's younger sister & mom to let them know I'd just figured out he has a problem...what would you do?

"I cannot give you any money today. I have not been paid. I also haven't worked much in the last 2 wks. I will give you 50% of my checks when I have enough to pay rent. I cannot give you $1000 a month"

See an attorney and make payments if you have to for his services to establish child support. It is not optional.

I think as long as you let them know that you still love him and are trying to save your marriage and your family. They may even offer to help financially.

Yeah - I'd let them know he is having trouble paying the house payment - see if they'll help - that way the proceeds from the sale of his stuff can go to attorney fees.

You are really ALL ABOUT me selling some stuff! I sent the email. I expect no offers financially, but I already feel relieved that H's mom & younger sister aren't able to keep this secret as they tend to do. For so many years I've kept secrets...and I'm finally letting go of that. It's actually a bit liberating! I don't have to carry this all on my own!

I know I'll have a lot more people praying for us now though, and I'll take it.

Julie, I hope you DID tell them that this has all stemmed from his drinking and that he has a serious drinking problem?

Actually no, because these aren't people I talk to often & I don't want to come off as catty. I played with it, but kept it out. I left a snippit about "his lifestyle" so if inquiring minds want to know, they shall be informed.

I'm considering firing his sister as IM too, not because she's not doing well but because I think it's only going to get more difficult. And she can't righly be "supportive" to us both in the way she wants when she has to be the "neutral" "middle-man".

I did make $17 by selling kids' clothes though! Score!

Just returned from an Al-Anon meeting. I still can't put my finger on it, but yes, indeed, these meetings are a HUGE part of my life & any sanity I wish to maintain. Today I just sat, and when it was my turn I asked if I could just listen today. Of course, the friendly strangers were very agreeable. I cried a lot. Yet I'm glad I went. I'll have to clear this with the kids first, but I'm going to try to make it my goal to attend a meeting every day this week. I found one on Tues. night where Alateen meets @the same time, so that's a given.

Hope you are all well. It's -2 right now & I guess the Packers are to play today. I'll be at the grocery store. But Extreme Makeover is about horses!!

In response to my email to the family, MIL/H's mother is not happy. And I am not surprised. The world is his enabler, I am the evil wife. Her reply:

Dear Julie, I'm afraid you made a mistake here. It was not your responsibility, nor your right, to notify my family of your plight. That would have been up to (H) alone. I really don't appreciate your doing so, especially since you present such a one-sided view of it, and seem to refuse to accept any responsibility of your own. As my mother always said "It takes two to make it and two to break it."

I was very supportive of you when you first told me of this and I agree that (H) has a problem with alcohol, he admits that himself. But nothing is ever one-sided. Your communication to my family seems a little self-righteous... as if you are attempting to vindicate yourself of any wrong doing before anyone can accuse you of anything. Well, my family knows you too - and they will take it for what it's worth.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but please remember that (H) is my son and I love him. A mother will always stand up for her children right or wrong. I'm not blind, and I'm not stupid and neither are my brothers and sisters. We are fully aware of our family history with all its faults and demons and we will do all that we can to support (H) and help him through this. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but I'm afraid you've gone too far.

I don't condone divorce, and I continue to pray that you and (H) will fix things and get back together but it's not all on him. It's not all his fault. I have loved you in spite of our differences and I know now that this is going to adversely affect our relationship. That saddens me because I love the kids too, and this is going to color that relationship as well. But I am asking you please to show some respect for me, for him, and for my family and leave any further "announcements" up to us.

I am, after all, your Mother-in-law. (MIL)

Julie, I know this is hurtful, but not surprising. Many parents confuse LOVE with ENABLING and that is clearly the case here. This is part of the reason he has not grown into a man. Addionally, his mother has been hearing ONE SIDE all this time, HIS SIDE. And in his side, I suspect you have been featured as the head demon in charge of he11.


This is the comment of an ENABLER, not a mother who truly loves her son. A mother who LOVES her son would NEVER stand up for him if he were WRONG, she would stand against it because it is not in her son's best interest. She would help him on the RIGHT PATH, not the WRONG PATH. I would NEVER support my son in being a BAD MAN, and that is what she is choosing.

I am CONCERNED about your SIL being the intermediary given his mothers response. His mother wrote this likely knowing that he has refused support, hasn't she?

Refused support? OH no, look at the support he's getting - I'm sure he's eating it all up - wouldn't you? Refusing to quit/change/recover/get help - yes, to my knowledge, none of this has occurred.

It's slightly hurtful, but by no means do I feel I was wrong to inform the family (one of her sisters has already responded, also a distant daughter) of the TRUTH that exists in my family. *I* will determine what's right/wrong for my family, and *I* will take it upon myself to make whatever announcements I see fit regarding *MY* family!! I agree, SIL will need to be replaced soon (my expectation is that she will resign, it'll be "just the 3 of them" again soon)

I do fear though, given this reaction, that H & my chance to reconcile has just diminished even more. And damn her for that.

...and YIKES, did you see how she's going to let this affect her (nearly-non-existent) relationship w/my kids? Vile woman

When I say "refused support," I am referring to CHILD SUPPORT. He has REFUSED to pay you child support or help you with the bills.

And don't worry about reconciliation. If it is going to happen, that will not stop it.

Got it. Well, so I shouldn't dignify this with a response? I'm not rushing to do so, but I've got some ideas cooking...although giving her no reaction at all could be the most rewarding as the replies from "her family" pour in. Vile woman.

Don't even bother. This is not a debating contest. Don't give her more opportunities to demonize you. Arguing with an idiot brings you down to her level.

Remember, in our last conversation 1/9, H said to me, "I'm going to keep giving you money, no need to get attorneys involved, I'm not sure what my next check will look like so I can't say a set amount, but I'm going to be helping..."

Well...well...well...

That translates into...

"If you contact an attorney I will HAVE to contribute financially...since I have NO plans on doing that, I do not want you to contact one. IF I give you any money at all, it will be AFTER I have what I want and need and I cannot do that if I am ORDERED by the court to help support the children."

Yep...he is a piece of work....

Sell everything you possibly can before you contact an attorney. Log the amounts that you received and what you spent the money on...mortgage...groceries....electric bill...so that you show that it was NEEDED to sustain HIS children.

I am not so sure how it would look if you started selling marital assests AFTER retaining an attorney. His attorney (if he had one) would make issue of it...or try to.

committed

Guys, I am going mad here. I have to be honest. This email has been on my mind all day. It's just so much, all of it. And still, I miss my H something fierce. I want him back, I want my life back, I want my bills paid, and I want to type out a long, detailed, vicious response to this ugly, ignorant email. Once home, I realized she'd copied H's sister (current intermediary) on the email. I just can't shake it. This is JUST so much.

Julie,

Let's see how you can respond to certain things in the email.

It was not your responsibility, nor your right, to notify my family of your plight. That would have been up to (H) alone.

[color:"red"]I became a member of the family when I married H, so my plight IS your plight...especially when MY children are YOUR grandchildren. So, this does indeed become the plight of us all [/color]

Your communication to my family seems a little self-righteous... as if you are attempting to vindicate yourself of any wrong doing before anyone can accuse you of anything. Well, my family knows you too - and they will take it for what it's worth.

[color:"red"]I take full responsibility for being co-dependent and an enabler of his behavior. [/color]

I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but please remember that (H) is my son and I love him. A mother will always stand up for her children right or wrong.

[color:"red"] He is my H and I love him too. I understand your position as his Mother since I am a Mother too. I am the mother of H's children and of YOUR grandchildren. I am standing up for my MINOR children because H has neglected to financially support them. Our children need a roof over their head, warmth for their bodies, and food in the tummies...I KNOW you would want your son to take care of your grandchildren, THAT is why I have informed you.
[/color]

We are fully aware of our family history with all its faults and demons and we will do all that we can to support (H) and help him through this. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but I'm afraid you've gone too far.

[color:"red"] Can I rely on you to help your grandchildren through this? I am sure that you want your son to support your grandchildren. [/color]

That saddens me because I love the kids too, and this is going to color that relationship as well. But I am asking you please to show some respect for me, for him, and for my family and leave any further "announcements" up to us.

[color:"red"] I will continue to do everything humanly possible to ensure that our children, your grandchildren, are provided for. If that means that I will have to make a few announcements, that is exactly what I will do. I am glad to see that I have your full support, as a Mother, in taking care of my children as you are taking care of your child, H. [/color]

Everyone of the comments that she made can be used by you also. You are simply taking care of your MINOR children. She is ENABLING her adult son. You cannot educate her on this, but you can sure draw a parallel.

committed

Thanks committed. I don't know what it is, but I just cannot shake this! I feel like I am carrying SO MUCH right now and poor ol' boy doesn't have gas money or whathaveyou while b*tchy wife spews truth. I appreciate your perspective. This woman, in 11 yrs, has NEVER "scolded" me before, has had LITTLE to do with my kids, has been quite immature herself and honestly, I've never been able to say I respect her. On 12/22 when this had hit the fan again, I did email her letting her know what's been going on (I'd managed to hide it for 11yrs!) and she swore she'd "support" me and go to meetings and blah blah blah...but when it's time to put your money where your mouth is (or whatever) she has the nerve to BLAME ME!?!?!?

Seriously, I've felt as if I were on the verge of a nervous breakdown all day long. And this is still going to get worse!

I've been out a bit lately so I am catching up with your post Julie. What was in your email to H's family? If I had been here I would have voted NO to sending the email, but that's water under the bridge. You sent out a letter and now you are getting responses. Considering that H's family has shown a lifelong habit of enabling him, did MIL's response really catch you completely off guard? If you think about it, her reponse is probably what might have been expected.

So of course you are very hurt and mad...I wouldn't like it either, I'm just saying it's pretty "normal" response to this type of situation. You may get it from others as well. I hope not, but you might. At this point, if it were me I would NOT respond, at all. I think it will just continue back and forth, get worse, and undermine your plan B.

I like committeds responses, but in an A family logical reasoning is often useless.

With my a's family I have zero expectations of support and understanding. It would require them to take a pretty serious look at all the various other A's in the family and a lifelong addiction to either drinking or enabling. They are nice enough, but I learned that you can't reason with them, it will only disolve into arguing and other things that are counter to your attempt to move into a healthy life.

While it's very hard right now, do not fall into a trap here. Stay strong Julie...

I was so happy to hear that you went to a meeting and that you set a goal to attend one everyday. Remember how you felt when you went? It is your life line, your serenity.

Instead of putting energy into their battle, get to a meeting...either face to face or on line.

Still behind you here

Julie..
I for one am no fan of all this drama going on with you..

the letter writing to the family in my opinion not good...
set up to fail from the begining....

in plan B you have no say nor control over what your WS family is told or not told...and should have no concern..
when and if asked....stick to the facts...

I love my husband
I want us to fix this marriage.
I can no longer expose my children to excessive dope and alcohol

I am hopeful for any and all support I can get...

stick to the objective...

your mother inlaw is no more accepting at this time that your husband has a real problem requiring real intervention on his part alone...

and you are angry and defensive of them/her...for their denial and ignorance...yet you lived that way for a long long time...and yet most family member of an user stay that way for long time....

you wrote your husband a loving plan B letter (I hope/assume)
then you slam him behind his back to his whole family...

not good...

you may need these people...
so it is not smart to alienate them...

If you need these people for help it is wise of you to approach this objectively...

I think you should apologize to her.
I think you should say you love her son
and you want this better...
I think you should tell her about the positive things you are learning in Ala-non

I think you should plead just being so sad it has come to this...(not emotionally crazy....) just sad and that you apoligize for the letter...and can see how it came accross as that and that is not what you meant to do...

I think you should be clear that he has said that he can not give you money...and you are worried the children will suffer....

you can cry and moan that they are enablers..or whatever...but this is all pretty new if this is your real fist attempt at exposure and recovery...

way way early in the game....

ARK

Julie, we were posting at the same time. I DO understand how you feel, but do NOT respond while your feelings are so strong...vent here all you want, but don't respond to her right now.

Julie, write out the most scatching letter you can think of and put it in the drawer and go to a meeting. If you still feel the same way in a WEEK, lets talk about sending it out. But don't do anything when you are this furious. Don't allow her injustice to ruin your day or make you react in a way that you regret in a week.

You DO NOT need your MIL's approval, Julie. She is an enabler who has trained your H to be like this. She is part of the problem.

Your ANGER will go away; the damage you could cause by sending out a reactionary letter will not.

Write the letter and throw it in a drawer. Then get to a meeting.

Thanks. I can't get to a meeting tonight (Gosh am I the queen of 'scuses or WHAT?!?!) cuz we've got snow & EVERYTHING is canceled. I haven't checked out the online meetings yet, I could. I guess I just really need somebody in my corner right now, and to be honest I wish it were H. In my home. Our bed. Watching TV. Having dinner. I want it all back - this is too real. And scary, because I swore I wouldn't lower my standards again this time, I promised the kids. But I want to. I want to beg him to come home. I want to take it all back, forget being strong, this is making me question everything right now! I'm supposedly doing the right thing, yet I'm making enemies out of idiots. I can't win!!!

In my home. Our bed. Watching TV. Having dinner. I want it all back

yes...
except he'd be on his fifth beer by now smoking a joint in a basement....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

typical family fun night....

ARK

You CAN win, stick with the plan. Don't slide back. Stay out of the drama.

Get to an online meeting tonight

I would agree that it is pretty useless to send any type of response to her.

I put those things out there for you to see what you know to be fact. You are caring for minor children...she is enabling an adult son.

She will ALWAYS choose him over anyone else.

The dysfunction in that family runs high right now.

You have your work cut out for you. You survived the dysfunction for all these years, you can and will survive this.

committed

Honestly? More fun than this! I locked myself in my closet once tonight so the kids wouldn't see me fall apart. I don't get it...this is getting harder. I never questioned my own sanity quite so much!

Thanks guys. Sorry for the pity party, not one of my prouder evenings. It's so much and I know I'll get thru it. I cannot even explain or justify how or why it is that I want him back or miss him so badly. You know what I need? I need a SPONSOR!! Yea, Ima get me one o' those this week!

Julie, it IS hard. You're breaking a mold that you have lived in your whole life. Stick with the program, collect yourself.

An on line meeting is the same is posting here

I guess I just really need somebody in my corner right now,

AHEMMMMM....

what are we....

Chopped Liver?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

committed

ark, mel, sicko (it's a term of endearment), committed - I'm going to follow ALL of your advice. Writing an apology will surely shock them! Writing a letter will help, both now AND in a week when I pull it out & read it. And the online meeting is sure to help. Thanks so much, really.

Do you live in Texas...

No, no, not at all. More like, all I've got. I thank God for that, really I do.

If you want me to join you in an alanon chat meeting later, I will "meet" you there. I can't get on unti later though.

Let me know what one you want to sign in to and the time and I will sign in too.

I never questioned my own sanity quite so much!

That's because you have stopped the insanity. Your life up to this point has been insane and you didn't know it until you totally removed yourself from it.

It seems a bit strange to live without the crap. You know nothing else...of course it seems strange...but it's gonna be good...and you will wonder why you ever put up with it to begin with.

committed

NO! Why? I'm in WI.

SOT, thanks for the offer...I'll dig up that link (it's in this thread somewhere, me thinks) & see if I can figure it out.

I don't know if I would write an apology letter....what did your letter to them say? Can you post a copy of it?

I have to leave for about 30 minutes...get back to me about the meeting, OK? I'll be back.

Hello to all,



I’m sending you this email with a heavy heart, to inform you that (H) & I are separated. He has chosen to leave our family home and is living in an apartment. (DD), (DS) & I are doing our best to be strong, stay busy, and work on healing us as we cope with this change and his lifestyle. I still love H and I will continue to do all I can to save our marriage and re-build our family. That choice is now his to make.



You are welcome to contact me if you like, by phone or email or other, although nothing is expected. Your thoughts & prayers are appreciated. Thank you for reading.

~Julie

Well He%%% then..

If you don't live in Texas your life ain't nearly as bad as MelodyLanes...

and that should make you feel pretty dayem good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See It could be worse

way Texass worse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is a story:
A friend of mine had so much harbored anger towards her ex-husband that she sought advice from an IC to help her deal with it in a constructive way, without yelling or internalizing. Her suggestion? Write his name on a piece of paper, put it in the toilet and pee on it.

I'm in agreement with ARK to get out of the drama, and try to muster the grace to apologize to your MIL. If she is as bad as she has always been, then do her words honestly surprise you? Take the high road Julie, you are a much better person.

I hope you can attend a meeting soon. I have tried to keep up with your thread, but not sure if you have read co-Dependent no more? Great book, it helped me a lot.

Julie,

Mel's suggestion is great...write it out and place it in a drawer and do not send it. You will get to say everything you want to say and there will be no un necessary fallout. Like SOT said, they ain't gonna get it anyways and they will just use it against you...much like the A uses Plan B against their spouse as justification for their poor behavior.

Read it next week...and see if you feel the same way. Things might change for you and you might actually start letting go of the things that you CANNOT change, which is your H and his family.

committed

THAT's the letter she responded to??

oh pishaw....that's an OK letter ...(IF you had to send one)

don't give it any thought or energy..
it's pointless..

ARK

ark, I was in TX a couple times. Fire ants. I can't hang. Now, are you taking back your suggestion to apologize? I've already embraced the idea! (While still writing here a tell-off letter, for the drawer/never send) Both will probably be therapeutic for me!

You know what else I've been missing? My horse. The best horsey-boy EVAH! Horses are my one true passion in life, the one thing that, thru adolescence & teen years & now motherhood & adulthood, has never let me down & always brought me great joy. It's been below 0 so I haven't ridden or even seen him in about a week. OH how I do love him. I should go tomorrow night, just to go.

You guys are great. And I can't find the dang link for the online Al-Anon meetings! I thought nesre posted 'em up in this thread! Still digging...

...on a related note, while cleaning the basement this weekend I found H's tent. This was a trigger because every summer he goes camping w/friends & I'm not invited. It's 3 days of straight drinking, very little sleep, some guys bring girlfriends (the ones who can drink like their disgusting men) but I'm not welcome. Anyhoo, I gave some real thought to peeing in his tent. Y'all are going to ban me, aren't you? I didn't do it...I swear...but this gave me the chance to admit I thought about it.

dang jealous flatheaded yankee gals! TEXAS ROCKS!! Ya don't see Mexicans trying to sneak into MASSYANKEESETTS, do ya?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />Heck no, pardner, they come to TEXAS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

God Bless Texas!

Julie, just put yore pistol away for now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

julie..
I think an apology letter is fine...
but the one you wrote wasn't over the top by any means....
(though imo you didn't need to write anything....)

yeah peeing in the tent...like you'd be the first, since it goes every year with men only; drinking...

that tents probably seen a lot worse than piss...

(and it's not their fault their borders are tainted with the state).......
I'm just doing my duty to cheer julie up...and not living in that big ole dumb state...cheers me up allll the time...

ARKIe

Julie, you don't need to send an apology, IMO. Your letter was just fine. His mother is aghast because she is one of his enablers and is committed to keeping secrets. Dysfunctional families LIKE SECRECY. Don't let them gaslight you into thinking you have done something WRONG, when their son has abandoned his family. Good grief...

you have issues, arkie!

I like the shock factor. In the apology letter, that is. They will ALL be floored! What will she have to argue with then? Who can argue with love?!!?!?

I like the shock factor of peeing in the tent too. It's a new tent. Just got it last year. And it's folded up all nice in its carrier, so if I would have opened it & then folded it/closed it back up....come July....eh, he'd either be too drunk to notice or too wrapped up in AA/his family to consider using the tent. More water under the bridge.

shock factor = drama factor...Don't do it. jmho

Hey Sicko, if you're here, can you link me? I tried from here: http://www.12stepforums.net/alanon.html
but the page is hanging...

Sell it on Craigslist!

Duh...good call!

I'm such a Craigslist junkie, it's shameful!

I personally like the idea of writing a "let it all hang out" letter and keeping it in the drawer. It gets your feelings out, which is therapeutic, and since you don't send it, any offense they could take won't occur.

So is it your MIL's blindness to her son's problem that bothers you? Or is it that they aren't in your corner? Or that they aren't confronting him? Or b/c she is turning it around on you? (hello MIL denial!) I'm trying to figure out exactly which thing got you so angry.

Forgive me if you explained this already, but is there another intermediary you could use besides your SIL?

Free

Hey FTBM, no I didn't explain it but thanks for asking me to, maybe that'll help!?

After H's & my last blow-up, 12/22, we were to go to his mom's for Christmas & I chose not to go. Instead, I put together a very long, very detailed, tell-all kind of email to MIL & SIL. I did that for a few reasons: because I needed to get it off my chest, because I didn't know if I was going to let him stay or not so I wanted them to be "ready", because I was sick & tired of being sick & tired, and ashamed that I'd "hidden" this for so long, and to make them (I know, I know) see their part in it too. H had a VERY rough childhood. Years ago, in an argument, I told MIL I think it's time for H to be allowed to stop raising MIL & SIL. MIL GASPED with horror! But he did - he was the man of the house, rescued MIL from abusive, crack-headed boyfriends, he was there when SIL's 1st & 2nd kids were born at age 13 & 15, and still today they count on H...to move their furniture, borrow them money, save the day, all while facing his own inner turmoil. MIL & SIL both were very kind, loving, said they'd support me & don't blame me, will support whatever decision I make, help w/kids, go to meetings with me...then MIL started to slowly back away. She can't go to a meeting, doesn't want to confront H, wants to be his "soft place to land" if he needs it, etc. I just re-read her first reply tonight, that she sent me on 12/24, when she says, "YOU are right, he needs to quit. He comes from a long line of alcoholics & I've warned him for years to be careful" So, I guess what's getting my goat right now is that while I know she KNOWS this problem is real, it was only OK as long as I kept it between us? I don't know...it was SO liberating to get it out in the open, I used to be such a private person/didn't want people judging my H, but I now know I don't have to carry this all on my own. And she was there with me, now she is demonizing me. What, because he's giving her a sob story? Or telling her I'm obsessive, narcicistic (if you read the letter H wrote me the other day)? For years I have been constantly shocked at how stupid she can be!

Julie I signed in and they are waiting for you.

Try this link

http://www.but1purpose.org/chat/

I just checked the link and it works. Click the link, click yes and you should get right in. You will automatically be signed in as a guest

And in her "I'll support you, call me if you want to talk, I'll check in on you & the kids, I'll take them for you if you need me to..." the MOST she's emailed me this WHOLE time was today, reprimanding me for sharing with "her family" (it wasn't only her brothers & sisters, there was a lot of family copied on the email) the TRUTH. I'm trying to get help, for us, for H, for everyone...and she's scolded me? I've picked up the pieces & put up with crap and held it together all these years and now she wants to dictate who I make announcements to, about MY FAMILY!? Vile woman.

I wish you lived close to me, I would like to help.

How's your first step inventory coming?

For example, how many people, places and things have you listed in the last 10 pages of this thread that you are powerless over?

Why don't you put this together and post it, since you can't make it to a meeting?

BTW, if you think you've got snow, wait til you get what hit Utah today...

Hey KA, thanks for piping in. I did attend an online meeting last night, it helped.

First Step Inventory...not too familiar w/this. I've only been to about 5 or 6 meetings now in the past month, not nearly enough. So far this inventory and the "process" of "working the steps" hasn't come up. None of my materials really speak of it either! A sponsor may help with that? I haven't picked up any of the books either, I could always justify saving the money & putting it towards something the kids & I NEEDED. But I've got a list of titles to get, when I can.

My sponsor had me write out a list of things that I am powerless over - so that I stop trying to take over control of my life from God.

That's a good idea. I got thru today by stopping, thinking, and sometimes writing when I started to feel overwhelmed. It helped. I started to check email from work (obsessive/compulsive) but stopped myself & wrote what I was feeling. I knew that if I checked email, and there was more awfulness there, it could ruin my day again.

I do have an email from an aunt of H's, a nice, supportive, kind email. No more 'you-are-the-spawn-of-the-devil' messages.

I'm having a hard time shaking part of H's letter to me, that I shouldn't have read; the part where he called me narcissistic. He's never used that word before & it really hurt. I get the feeling he took that from his mother & decided to give it a whack - there was a lot of button-pushing in the letter. Anyway, no matter, I looked up the definition today & am still hurt, yet entrigued. I'd actually describe myself more as having something similar to body dysmorphic disorder, but again, no matter. In all my self-help reading I may just find some info on narcissism & learn more. I'm looking forward to having the kids attend an Alateen meeting tonight.

You're not really giving any weight to an A that is shifting this back on you, are you?? Remember the stuff from your meeting last night. The things he says are very hurtful of course, but they are just alcoholic rationalizations. Nothing more. Even if you WERE any of those things, it does not MAKE him drink! Keep the 3 C's at the top of your mind when you are having these moments.

I LOVE the self control today...not readig the emails during the day and writing things. Good job Julie! Keep that up.

Ask about the daily readers tonight...I think you will find them very helpful. I can't remember what they cost, but I remember it was very nominal.

SOT

Nacissism is based on a Greek myth. It's interesting if you read up on it.

You are NOT a narcissist. Oh Pa-lease! He probably just used it, b/c he thought the word made him sound smart.
Most waywards are narcissistc...selfish, egotistical and vane. "All about ME" is their mantra.

You my dear are most likely co-dependent. Go get the book on it. I'm telling you, it will really, really help. If I had extra money I'd send you a copy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good news on the aunt's letter and here's hoping the kids get something out of that meeting.

Just getting back here...the kids were NOT digging my idea about the Alateen meeting. "Do we have to?" "YES" They went, I told them they didn't have to talk if they didn't want to....they had FUN!!! They got Beginners' Packets & WANT to go back next week! They chose to pass/not talk or say why they're there, but I'm SO proud of them! And the group I was with, though ALL of them smoked tremendously, is a group I can see going back to. Since it's the only Al-Anon/Alateen combo I've found close to here so far, I will go for sure. We will come home smelling smokey.

DS had a good point: "They smoke? But aren't you all meeting because your lives are uncontrollable...due to someone you love's ADDICTION!?!?!? Cigarettes are like a drug, they're addicting!!" (He's 8!!!) That's my boy. I will have to share this in the next meeting.

Another email from another aunt, offering support. Intended for both of us (H & I) and she asked me to please pass along to H. Obviously I cannot do that but perhaps one day he will be home & I can share w/him.

GOOD DAY today! Thank you guys. You really got me over a hump last night.

Julie, today was a WIN for you. Pat yourself on the back kid, you couldn't have done it better.

Hi Julie-

Narcissist was a guy who was so in love with himself that he drowned gazing at his own reflection in a pond. He just had to get closer to that beautiful person. It was a myth with a moral: don't be stuck on yourself.

Someone who is narcissistic likes to be the center of ALL attention and only cares about how others meet their needs-not the other way around.

Somehow I can't see that applying to you.

Julie, you did good, but PLEASE do not say that at that meeting or I will BOX YOUR EARS! The last thing those ladies need is to be scolded about smoking when their lives are in chaos. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON between a cigarette addiction and an alcohol addiction. I don't know any people who have been arrested for driving while smoking. There is a reason why!

Please explain the DRAMATIC difference between alcohol and smoking to that boy! And don't nag ppl about smoking! Bad girl!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, that's EXACTLY what I said to them - that if you smoke a cigarette & hop in a car, you won't be impaired to a life threatening degree.

He had a point anyway. He was trying to learn in learn-mode & I thought that was excellent. I do not intend to nag, that wasn't my point. You can't box my ears.

So it's Wednesday again, and the kids started in w/me this morning already.

DS: You might have to drop us off @Dad's tonight if he can't get us.
DD: No, if he can't get us then we just won't go!
Me: What you talkin' bout?
DS/DD: Dad's truck is broke down & he's trying really hard to get it fixed today but he's not sure if he can so he doesn't know if he'll be able to pick us up.
Me: Hmmmm
DD: But if he can't pick us up we just don't see him
Me, to DS: Well you're going to spend the weekend with him...

So, I'm not going to drop them off, right? I really don't feel like I'm going to drop them off. What I feel like is that there's always drama - he can't feed them, he can't get them on time, he can't get them at all...it's not my job to make ANY of this happen, right!?!?

Julie, that is his problem. So unless he asks you do something specific I would just let him handle it.

I should remind the kids of our intermediary. They must be tiring of this too, and it's a lot to ask them to carry.

Julie
Just wanted to post and say its so great to see how you are growing! The process of getting out of the vacuum (gotta hide/keep everything in and together) is a very hard transition and your making all the right moves. I’m giving you a standing ovation right now.
Your building a great support system around you and your children.

Kick around idea--------
If H does not show to pu children have a set (economical) back up plan. What I am suggesting is a set time you will allow H to be late. Xxxx#minutes. If no call from INTERMEDIARY stating H will be late He will be there at XXXX, then I would leave

All cell phones at home and

Go sledding
Go skiing
Go to the mall
Go ice skating
Go visit friends
Go to the Library—Julie may be able to pu the book Co-dependant no more by Melody Beattie for FREE-now thats economical!

Try something new

Julie is not responsible for H,s visitation w/children. She just needs to stick to the agreed pu times/locations and drop off times/locations…… Isn’t that Julies part?

All H’s garbage as to why is his and would be best if intermediary could filter out. If he doesn’t communicate changes through the intermediary as requested then how would Julie know whats going on?

The idea with the above mentioned suggestions is that you and the kids refuse to sit around and wait for him to keep promises. Don’t let him bounce in and mess with your schedules. If He’s going to be late and makes no effort to inform you then that is just plain rude. If you sit and wait then he’s got a small piece of control over you and the children.

IMO-The children are H’s best way to screw with you. If he can’t keep a simple visitation schedule that’s too bad. If you let it screw with you then he has a chance to break PLAN B. Personally I would not sit and wait if he doesn’t keep to agreed times w/o notice. I also would not tell the children before hand that if H doesn't show up we will go ______ do this. I would just make one of the suggestions above when its oobvious that the plan has changed and go do it.

To me this squarely would put the burden of responsibilty on your H to keep his promises. If H doesn't then why should Julie and children remain hostage to his irresponsibilty? The idea here is that H's drinking and choices don't affect any body else. He is not hurting any body else. WE ALL KNOW BETTER-DON'T WE?

AS A PRACTICING ALCOHOLIC I HATED THIS TYPE OF SITUATION WHEN IT HAPPENED BUT WHO COULD I BLAME WHEN IT DID? IT CAUSED SEVERE INNER HATE TOWARDS MYSELF BUT THE OUTWARD SIGNS OF ANGER WERE DIRECTED AT MY W. I n reality she was just living life with the best information she had at the time. If I was too drunk from the night before and couldn't get up early to take her and my son on the trip I promised the week before by God she got in the car and left me at home.

I would bet a weeks pay that if the “MOTHER OF ALL PARTYS” was going to happen with one of his buds he’d find a way to get there and back at the right time and day!!!


Chris


Me 49 –
FWH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Hey Chris, thanks for popping in. Did you get caught up? Lots of mess-ups on my part & one near-nervous-breakdown. Feeling better though. SO proud of my kids going to that meeting, and SO relieved they'll go back. Imagine their teen years if I can get them a solid foundation/program like this! Good times.

You forgot one suggestion: go riding! (We have a horse)That's what I was planning to do tonight if they go with H, though they'll be glad to join me if he doesn't follow thru. He'll call to let them know he'll be late, but he calls the kids, and then they tell me, and that feels not very DARK so...should I give IM the heads-up now? I feel trapped in a way, because I know as soon as DD gets out of school H will be calling her. I really do need to find a new IM too. I shouldn't even know this stuff about the truck, neither should the kids, but he's using them as the filter and that's not fair.

Julie

HB riding sounds fun even though its -3 here right now.
I live from what I can tell about 300 miles west of you.

Thats is one part of the PB thats defianately weak.

Your children are very involved.

Is there any reason your children have to carry cell phones? I know its convienent..Is it really necessary?

When H calls them it does put them in position of IM. You have to respond to children and then it goes back to H.


Was any of this spelled out in the PBL?

I personally as the adult-would not let H make or change plans without going through the IM. I would nicely through the IM let H know he is free to talk to children all he wants. Changes in PU/DO times need to come through IM and then to you. You will decide what works....and then IM will inform Him. NOT the children....

Don't make this easy for him.


Julies rules need to apply or he'll keep on tryin to leave footprints on you.


Chris

Well, they walk to/from school & DD is "responsible" for getting DS to/from school so we got them a phone so we could make sure they're OK/safe/being responsible. Also it comes in handy for when they're with other relatives/frinds and now, H, so if something goes wrong they can call me if they need to. (In the case of H, if they see alcohol or anything other than a cigarette being smoked, they are to call me)

But yes, it's working in reverse right now. I can't easily CXL their phone and I don't feel right telling them to only answer MY calls, so that's how/why I'm feeling "trapped" right now. Another of our master plans that, as a family, worked famously...and as a SPLIT family, is causing me AND the kids stress/enabling H's manipulation of all 3 of us.

My Opinion

You are the adult
H needs to go through IM about desicions affecting the children PU/Do times.

I would have IM inform H he can talk/communicate all he wants w/children

Any variations need to go through her...............end

Chris

Sometimes this stuff is so difficult for me.

I did send IM an email requesting she make this "reminder".

BTW, it's 11 here. They say we'll see 30s by the weekend!

Your IM is your filter both ways from your H’s crap.
Through your IM I would let H know he is more than welcome to talk to the children all he wants. Decisions need to go through IM back and forth . PERIOD.............

I would, if I had to, ignore any decisions made with the children if they do not come through the IM. That’s just me.

DARK is what its all about. As a BS a long time ago nothing changed until I went dark for 3 months. I would walk my (about 2 ½ yrs old) son up to the door-knock-watch him go in-the whole time I was headed for my car. I would pu at FILs house.
That was the only contact I had. Visitation was set on a regular schedule with me picking up at the FILs so no games were played.
Before that time she would not show or would want me to drive here or there

“JUMP THROUGH HOOPS”

Its to everyones benefit if you can tighten it up.


Chris


Me 49 –
FWH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Yes, I agree, and thanks again for being there when I needed you. IM said she'd "communicate that to him" but I got a call from DD RIGHT after she got out of school, saying, "Dad's fixing his truck now, so he can't see us till the weekend"

Seems harmless enough & I'm sure he was like, "WHATEVER" at my "reminder" today but UGH, it's not working! Maybe I should explain to DD? This feels like playing the kids as pawns. Me no likey.

The idea is to get H to use the IM and not jerk you around.
H is "using the children". He has all the access he wants as long as he is sober and safe-right? Your not using them as pawns or holding them back from anything.
I would make sure H gets the message that all information goes through the IM.
It may help if you talk to DD also.

Its so very hard with children.

Hopefully Vets will pick up on your posts and new ideas will emerge.

Gotta run

Prayers are with you, your children and your H.

Chris

Yes, I know that's the idea, but...how to enforce? I can't, really. Why is he being such a jerk? He's said he's not mad, he made it clear (as seen in my re-post of his letter to me) that HE chose to leave, I didn't throw him out, so why is he doing this?

Well I tell you, I've forgotten my lil notepad & I'm going nuts not being able to journal as my thoughts get the best of me! Last night DS & I were watching "moment of truth". He was interested since he first saw the commercials.
DS: Dad should go on there
Me: Why?
DS: they could ask him if he ever drank too much beer, and got really angry.

So last night one of the clips they previewed was asking the guy if he thought he'd be married to his wife 5 yrs from now.
DS: Do you think you'll be married to Dad 5 yrs from now?
Me: I really don't know, but I do hope so. What do you think?
DS: I think so, if he stops drinking. But if he doesn't, no.
Me: Yea, I really hope he chooses to stop & get better. Then I can get better, and we can all be healthy & happy. But I don't know if he will.

DS asked me a bit later if I'm ever going to go to Dad's apartment, "just to visit?" I told him that I'm not talking to dad right now, unless he chooses to get better & then we can put our family back together. But right now it's just too painful for me considering the choices dad is making right now. DD went to bed early last night feeling sick so DS & I had time to talk. He's being so mature, he talked to the counselor @school about the separation & said he was glad to have someone to talk to. Also said he was glad to meet kids @Alateen who had the same problems/hurt/anger.

Anyway this morning I decided to look up H's band's Myspace. It was dumb but I guess I was missing him. There's a pic of him from the show on 1/19. He actually didn't look as happy as I remember him looking when I was there & he'd perform. There was a comment from a 22y/o girl who I think I'd met just stating how good he looked. H isn't into Myspace or really online at all, but it was dumb of me to look & find her comment. She's just a 22y/o girl so I needn't worry, I'm just mad at myself. Got a meeting tonight where an AA member is going to speak, then an Alanon member. Looking forward to it.

Sorry for the shortcoming, guys.

OH, and Mel, (where are you, MelodyLane?) there's a new artist whose music my kids are into right now. Her name is "Paramour". Had to share.

You got your own 2 x 4 !!! You don't need anyone elses.
What I think you need is a big ole Al-Anon hug.

Julie - Your just so human.

You are so in tune with you children. That is so awesome!!!

Your dealing as best you can with a man who takes non-sense and trys to sell it to you and the children as sense.

Your dealing as best you can with a man who makes promises to you and your children and doesn't keep them.

You truly are there for your family.


It will get better.
To be honest with you I don't know if I could resist looking at myspace either if I were in your shoes.

Talk to you later

Chris

Julie

Going back tto what we were talking about yesterday-

Is his visitation w/children at a set time and pu /do place.?

Is there some one you know, and the children are comfortable enough with, where he could pu and do at the set times and days? Your Intermediary? Other relatives? Close friends?

The reason I ask is because in general most addicts do not have the empathy to see how there actions affect the people around them. Not that your H was using last night but the WHOLE MINDSET IS JULIE WILL PU THE PIECES LIKE ALWAYS. NO MATTER WHAT I DO.

<<<<<<<JULIE IS NOT H’s DOORMAT UNLESS SHE CHOSES TO BE>>>>>>

In Julies case H does not pu children. Who is left to deal with the mess? H surely isn’t.

Most active addicts could care less is they act like a horses a$$ around or to there immediate family. BUT

When a mutual drop off location is used to pu/do children then they see what an a$$ the person is also. Most do not want anyone outside that “vacuum” you describe (family doesn’t know how much/often/behavior/ when he uses.) to know they are a horses a$$.

Julie
This is a matter of H controlling you:
Can you make any type of plans on the night H is supposed to have children?
Isn’t H assuming Julie will be there to pick up His slack? No matter what?
H probably has no clue of how good, open, and honest you are w/children. I doubt he even has a clue how they feel about all of this.

If any person around me asked me to drive a few miles to pu/do children, I would, to the best of my ability help them out. H has family close by. H has friends. Most people with half a heart would help.

You may want to ask some of the people at your meeting tonight if they have had to deal w/this and how they set it up. Your PBL letter is not written in stone and can be altered to your satisfaction.

Chris


Me 49 –
FWH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

So I've got this dog. I've got 2 actually, and 2 cats in the house. The horse lives about 20 min from here. As I've stated before H says I have an "animal addiction". I don't think it's quite that serious but he's not an animal lover, so I get that he doesn't get it. Anyway, one of my dogs, the Boston Terror-ier, is INTENSE. Very needy, not happy if he's not touching me, fixated on killing my cats, just intense. H HATES the dog. Yes, hates him. For a few months I've been thinking about re-homing him. There's a lady at work who really wants to give it a try & I mentioned it to H a few months back, he said "that's really, totally your decision". I felt guilty so I dropped it.

Anyway, now that it's just the 3 of us & we go to meetings & the farm & we have even LESS time here, I've decided to give it a try - we're doing a "trial adoption" this coming week. I told DD about this.

DD: Yea, when I was talking to Dad last week when I told him I don't support his decision to move out or keep drinking, I told him you were thinking of getting rid of him. He said, "See!? And she wouldn't do that when I was home."

WHAT!?!?!? Seriously!?!?!? First of all he never asked me to get rid of the dog, secondly the dog is HARDLY the root of our problems, and lastly...I DID share with him, when he was home, that I was thinking of finding him a new home. WTH??

Well that's insane but it gave me the opportunity to explain to DD how alcoholics/addicts manipulate and blame-shift. OH, and lie. I didn't bash H to DD at all, I kept re-iterating how sick he is - so sick that he doesn't know/won't admit he's sick!

Anyway, the dog is driving us bananas & hopefully we'll all live happily ever after in our respective homes. Maybe H will come home now. HA!

Nesre, not ignoring your post. Been thinking a lot about it, actually. But I've got a lot more thinking to do before I can come up with the solution. I do need a new IM though.

I wrote you a post earlier today but it didn't go through.

Basically it said you need to be writing these things down. Everytime he uses the kids, everytime he changes the plan.
You may not be able to control him, but be sure to document this in a spiral notebook (not the computer). If you ever have custody or child support issues you will be glad you did! Trust me!!!

OK, I will. And I think for today I'll take the kids' phone so that H can't start "making arrangements" w/them while I'm away.

Just wanted to say you sound more in control of things the last few days. You're making such great strides...be proud of yourself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. It's hard to see it thru the thick CRAP I'm dealing with! I didn't end up taking their phone, but I did talk to DD about it. I'm helping my daughter learn detachment. Yikes! She said she'll take 1 call from H & then no more, and if he tries to "make plans" w/her she will tell him to contact IM.

I did get an "estimate" from a local music store on lots of the stuff in the basement - will be listing my "Deadbeat Husband/Dad Special" tonight. Pray for me that I don't get any crazies!

OK, well DD forgot the phone AND her keys, which is actually working really well for now. IM sent me email, H's truck still broke down & going to work on it w/a friend tonight, so is it OK if IM picks kids (DS) up & takes him to H's apartment?

I said that would be fine, I'm here till 4, please let me know before then who's picking up where & when.

She responds that H won't know till 6 or 7 if the truck will run, so it is now expected I wait till 6 or 7 to see if somebody is picking up DS!?!?!?!?

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive and/or controlling. Then again, I'm tired of the 'scuses.

What would YOU do? Just say pick him up tomorrow? Tell IM to pick him up at 6? What???

Honestly, EACH time H was supposed to take kids w/the exception of the 1st Wed, I cannot make plans! I was hoping to meet a friend out tonight for her birthday!

Julie
If it was me I would have IM come and get DS if it is OK with him at 6.

I would also expect the IM to update me.
Was son going to stay overnight?
Is there a set time here or is it for the weekend?

Chris

What nesre said....and write it down in the notebook.

Here's how it went:

IM: (H) just called me and wanted me to tell you that his truck is still broken down. He is supposed to be working on it tonight with (a friend), but is not sure if they'll get it running. What he wants to know is if it doesn't get fixed, would it be alright if I picked up the kids and took them to his house?
Me: That would be fine. I'm here till 4:15, so please let me know before then who's picking up where & when. Thanks!
IM: He said he won't know if the truck will be running until 6-7, but I'll email you before you leave if I hear anything else.
Me: Actually, the waiting game is really hard on (DS) and not conducive to my own plans. Let's do this: let's plan to make the exchange tomorrow. I've got a really busy day, so if you don't have anything going on in the morning, I can drop off by you or if you're out you can pick up by me, whichever. This way there is a PLAN.
IM: I do have stuff going on tomorrow from about 10:30-afternoon. I'll just get (DS) tonight right after work. Be about 5:30-ish. I need to be home by 7 so that works fine for me.
Me: You will be at my house 5:30+/- tonight?
IM: Yes. That works better for me. I can't commit to be a transporter tomorrow, too busy.
Me: See you then.

Sorry if it's silly to post, I still have a really hard time knowing if I'm right or being reasonable or not. Hopefully IM (H's sister) is feeling a bit inconvenienced by this. And hopefully somebody plans to feed my boy. Eesh.

That is just fine, Julie. He called your intermediary with the problem and she helped facilitate the exchange. I like the way you creatively found a PLAN. That very muchly appeals to the ACOA in me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

p.s. that is NOT too silly to post at all! That is the BEST WAY to give us the flavor of the conversation and better help our understanding.

Cool, thanks. Craigslist sale has begun. Heeeeeerrrrre, money - money - moneeeeeyyyy....!!

Way to go Julie!!!!


Chris

Sorry...put this on the wrong thread!

Well, it was nice to have you here LaLa!

Feelin' good - just sold a cymbal. I sold it dirt cheap, $35, almost to rub salt. The guy said, "would you take $30?" I said, "No" $35...

Unfortunately I missed a call from a guy about a set of speakers I've got listed for $400...OH how I do hope he calls back, that's our 2nd mortgage!!

<<Goes back to basement to find more crap to sell>>

This could be addicting!

speakers...hmmm where can I view them? my dad's a speaker/electronices/amplifier, etc. fanatic.

He offered me $200. I said no. He walked. Hope I don't regret that. Hope somebody buys 'em tomorrow.

I'm in WI.

My neighbor, who continues to be wonderful, has offered to be our new intermediary. I worry about her being able to be neutral too...but at least her bias, at this point, is in MY favor. I'll think about it...

Way to go Julie

Hopefully the cash will pour in!!

Neighbor might be a good IM. It does sound from what you have said in the past that she's on board with you.

Just wanted to say HEY!!!

Chris <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hey Julie! Here's to hopin you get bunches of cashola in your sale!

I just never posted b4 because I really know nothing about what to with an alcoholic...although I have learned a lot from reading your thread. Never really had anything useful to add, I guess. You have had great help and support here, though, as have I. Aren't the peeps here great!

I actually thought I was posting to nesre when I put that up yesterday. I wanted to give her a great big HUG for her support on that other thread. I couldn't find a thread for ya though, nesre...can you start one? BTW- notice...no responses over there...

Sorry for the T/J Julie! How is Plan B going now?

Alright...

So I sold a cymbal for $35 & my fish tank for $150. It's a start. Unfortunately the fish tank was MINE so that didn't feel quite as good but it'll go in the bank just the same.

DS got home via IM @3:00. It was supposed to be 4:00, DS confirmed this w/me via phone this morning, but walked thru the door @3:00. "Dad & (IM) decided I could come home @3:00" Nice.

DS brought home a form from school earlier in the week for baseball...he wants to sign up, and it's $75. I told him we'll see (I DON'T have the money now, plus he's not always as committed to these things as we'd like) He hasn't bugged me, but Thursday night DS said, "I'm going to ask Dad if he'll pay for baseball for me" I told him that's fine. So today he says he'd asked if he'd pay for it, and he said, "He said, 'what, did MOM tell you to ask me?'" DS told him no (I didn't!) but what a jerk!

Then, a little while ago he tells me the Royal Rumble or something like that - a wrestling thing, is on PPV tonight. "Can we order it?" I said no. He won't let it go. Checks the Guide to see how much it is. $40. He thinks this new info will somehow strike an "OH, $40? OK we'll get it!" in me, but it didn't. DS is now crying over this stupid wrestling $40 PPV thing. I asked him how he even knows about this, of course he says, "Dad told me"

So now this a*shat is not only NOT giving me money while I'm scrounging to pay bills, but he's dragging DS into money talks/ideas/MANIPULATION!?!?!?!?!?!

I honestly do not know what love it is that my Plan B is protecting. What scum. It just keeps getting worse. I'm not crying. I'm not sad. I'm disgusted and ashamed FOR this "man" I'm currently legally married to.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer, guys.

Yes, hate is setting in. Got a message from IM (H's sister) giving me a list of H's shows so I can make the weekend visitation schedule, H wants to come get some more stuff from the house once his truck is running, and when I do our taxes he is requesting 40% of the return.

WHY is he still moving stuff out, instead of trying to work his way back IN? Why is that?

And 40%? Pfffft...yea right! I need to get caught up on bills and hire an attorney so that I start seeing some support from this fool.

I don't get it. I just don't get it. I guess this is what he really wants. A-mazing.

Well, I'm going to post this update but I'm not too confident I'll get any advice or feedback. I'm kicking my feet & throwing a tantrum right now as I don't feel my thread gets any attention these days & I DO feel as if H is living a grand single life w/tons of support.

My SIL, my brother's wife, they were separated once, has really got me scared - about the stuff I've sold & hope to continue to sell, about not being able to drop H from my health ins, and about the (crappy) future.

I feel like IM, H's sister, is "on his side" and I don't want her as my IM anymore - I actually want somebody on MY side to be my IM. I want someone on MY SIDE! I'm scared and I'm angry. Scared of the inevitable financial ruin in my future and angry that he's going to get away with it. I'm going to have to give him 40% (or 50%) of our tax return. I can't afford an attorney so I'm just going to file on my own. It's been a month and H NEEDS me right now - his truck is immobile and his finances have got to be all over the place but all he really cares about is the tax return that I'M going to file for and the rest of his stuff.

I know this is a marriage building site & that's why I've been here the times I have. But I've never felt more screwed. I NEVER thought I'd be here 9 years later and it's not fair that I'M the one who's hurting, who's angry, who's explaining my feelings to my kids & telling them we can't afford pay-per-view. I honestly feel duped and like I will NEVER feel safe marrying again. I just hate this. I hate that I hate it.

I haven't sent MIL any reply, and I never found the time to write a letter to stick in my drawer. But it's been on my mind almost daily since she sent the stupid email I posted here. Today she sent me another email, and I still want to tell her to stick it. I'll leave you with it:

"Hi Julie. I hope you're not mad at me for the last email. I still care about you and wonder how you're doing. I'm so sorry that this has all happened. As a mother you know I'd do anything for my kids happiness - and I am very sad for you and the children. Could I make plans to spend some time with them soon? (Her husband) went back to work today."

Julie,

(((((hugs!))))

So sorry you are having such a tough time and not much support.

Just want you to know I am on 'your' side.

I am sorry your H is making alcohol his priority, please try to step back and not react. Do what is healthiest for you and your family.

Bumping up for more replies.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Says her. Julie, you are not even legally separated. You are SURVIVING however you can. No Judge is going to make you repay anything before there's even anything on file! Pay his insurance? Why? Because he's abandoned his family? I don't think that will happen, if it even got that far. The Judge will see it for what it is.



If you feel that strongly about her then make a change.


Again, who says? The IRS won't care one iota who keeps the money. Only a divorce judge would even give it any consideration. Again... no one has filed. There is no legal separation. What happens to the money depends on who has control of it at the time. He can yell and scream all he wants... who's he gonna tell?


Shows you where his head is at. Living for the moment. Not EVEN thinking about the survival of his family.


(((Julie)))


Ignore it. She is not a friend to your marriage or her grandchildren right now.

Hey Julie

Sorry its been a rough day

Love Busters Page 242

"In most cases the spouse of an addict must seperate entirely, PROVIDING NO CARE AT ALL until the addiction is overcome. Seperating not only protects the spouse of an addict from destructive behavior, but provides the addict with the BEST HOPE FOR RECOVERY. The only one who can overcome an addiction is the addict-the spouse cannot do it for him or her."

At this point Julie write H (emotionally and physically)off and keep on going. Do you have a set amount of time that you will continue this?

If the point here is for H to get help to quit drinking and possible M reconciliation then ----as dumb as it may sound you can -if you chose to help-help him hit bottom and hit hard.

Maybe end up living in his truck?
Maybe not enough money to pay his own electric bill?
Buy food?

Its extremely hard to watch but this is the stuff that it takes for an alcoholic to realize they are at rock bottom.
Hope to be able to post more tommorow.

Can you get to a meeting tonight?? ONLINe??

Prayers for you , your children and H


Chris

Hey Chris,

I don't have any answers. I honestly think the answer is to file for a divorce. Each time I sign my name I cringe. I LOVED H's dad, and it KILLS me, absolutely rips me apart, that if he were alive today he'd (be the only one willing to) grab H by his shoulders and SHAKE him.

That's just the thing - for his whole life, H has had people step out of his way, back up, let him do what he's going to do. I'm the ONLY one who stepped in at times, but I was sick & caught up too, keeping the cycle going. I think this wall we're up against is brick. I think I'm still lying to myself, or something. I don't know that MB is for me.

No, I cannot get to a meeting tonight, but I can log on later to do an online one.

I don't have a set amount of time I'll "do this" and w/o the financial support I'm sure it can't be long. Even if I get a court order. See, H is self employed and I probably don't need to tell you folks that in that situation, you can hide money & make it look like you make next to nothing. = little child support. I know nothing of spousal support. I do know he's supposedly (according to what he told DD/11) signed a 1yr. lease.

I'd LOVE to help/make him hit bottom. How is that possible? Long as Mommy & all his buddies are willing to help & pat him on the back, bottom will only come if he CHOOSES it!

Julie,
I know this seems kind of contrary to MB principles... But maybe you should file for Divorce...

The only reason I say that is because if there's a Leagal Separation Agreement (If that's available in your state)

Putting some pressure on him may make him come to his senses. And then you have some kind of financial support to help you continue plan B.

I.E. If you have a court order that says Husband must...

give you 35% of gross income to help support children...

Pay half of all insurance premiums and half of all medical bills...

Pay all of your leagle expences...

Temporary Spousal support...

Alimony....

ETC ETC ETC...

See what I'm getting at here... Maybe he needs a wake-up-call to see what Divorced Life will be like for him...

This doesn't mean you will have to give up on the marriage... just give him a taste of divorce life for a while...

I wouldn't worry about him "hiding" money... If you have a good lawyer... he'll find it...

JMHO... and tryin to think outside the box

Hi Julie,

I'm sorry you are having a hard time. You've been in the dip of the rollercoaster before and pulled up strong, do it again.

I really avoid telling people what I would do in a given situation because we are all different people with different circumstances but I've traveled part of the road you are on so...

1. File for D because you said there is no LS in WI. This will begin the process, get court orders going for CS and the visitation schedule worked out. KEEP those notes about his constant changing of plans. When it's time to do the visitation schedule ask to really nail it down to specific times and days because he has shown his inability to work things out with you. It could also let him know you mean business and that you are not fooling around with your life anymore. Could scare him into doing something? It does not mean you will get a divorce. It's very simple to stop it if he stops drinking.

2. Do not share information with SIL anymore. This is her brother and I would EXPECT that she will take his side in the end. Get a different IM right away. Do not reply to MIL, it won'thelp anything...it will only stir the pot.

3. Sell what needs to be sold to pay for the care and support of your family. Keep a record of what you sold and for how much. Careful what you say about him in Craig's List so you don't appear to be vengeful. Show that you are selling your things too.

4. Just because his income is sporatic, doesn't mean that the kids need to eat and have basic needs met is sporatic. The court sees this all the time. They will determine what he has to pay. He will find a way to pay it or will be found in contempt. They will withhold his CS from tax refunds, paychecks, etc. If he or his business partner hide income they will be in a world of trouble with the law. Just file and get the ball moving to protect yourself.

5. Get to meetings BEFORE you slide down here again. It's easy to not go when you feel strong, than you get a day like today and it's overwhelming.

We're stil here Julie...

Thanks guys. You are SO RIGHT about the meetings too. EVERY time I go I tell myself this on the way home, but it's just like you said. And today I WAS strong. I did journal at my desk, and reminded myself of how I'd been thinking for months now how immature he is, how I'm started to NOT be attracted to him, how I don't care what he's talking about and I hate his friends.

I'm going to file for D. I'll do it myself and make all the court dates. It will be a headache, but it will save money and prevent me from going further into debt. I do think I should do this AFTER stuff is sold & taxes are filed.

Would you agree?

I'm told once it's on paper is when I need to freeze & not sell anything. Too bad he took the title for the motorcycle, I'd sell that in a heartbeat. It's across the street in the neighbors' garage.

Thanks again. I've got a whopper of a headache - self induced no doubt. I'm so sick of this. I'm sick of being sick of this. I don't care if the marriage is saved anymore. Right now, ut's me who needs saving. And my kids. I'm really starting to feel hate towards him. And I don't like how that feels.

How would you handle the changing of IM? I mean, do I just tell her, and have her tell H? Is this grounds for a new PBL? I can't imagine that's necessary...(?)

just another note...my ex was called in for many show cause hearings for non payment of CS. He gave lots of excuses until finally one day we were standing in the court room and he rambled on and on about how his income had dropped (he was also self employed) and how the CS amount was a hardship, etc...The judge (they used judges back then instead of mediators) asked me if I had anything to say. I said I have our tax returns for the last 5 years showing he is quite capable of earning this income. That just because he was not making the same amount (I also thought he has hiding money) did not mean that my boys didn't have the same basic needs met by their parents. I also said that the electric company and the bank would never accept these excuses...they would just shut me off or foreclose on my home. How can he use these excuses with his children?

The judge reviewed the tax returns, turned to him and said you are a healthy, college educated man ( the pompous idiot showed up dressed in his best suit, trying to impress everyone LOL) and I find no reason that you cannot work at the same level you were working during your marriage. He was given a couple of weeks to pay up or go to jail. Period.

Julie, really, they see this stuff all the time. He may think he can fool you or his family, but he won't fool them one bit. He will have his court orders and will HAVE to comply or pay the legal consequences. He'll catch on pretty quick.

You could say something like, "SIL, I think I have put you in a difficult position asking you to be my IM. I deeply appreciate all that you have done for me and the help you have offered as my IM. I just think I am putting you in a awkward situation with your family and I don't want to cause any harm. Thank you again, I will remember what a kind thing you did but I am asking someone else to do it from now on."

who will be the new IM?

My neighbor, me thinks. I haven't discussed it past her saying "I will be your IM. I like (H). I think he's being an idiot right now, but I like him and I won't pass any judgment or hold anything against him" (knowing I still want to "protect" him) She's old enough to be my mother & has been a great support - brought me power tools so I could change my locks, watched from across the street as I had people come in & buy stuff to make sure I didn't end up murdered. She's been married 25 yrs but I just found out she & her H separated long ago too, because he was drinking too much. I would have never guessed it, they've got a great relationship & her H does NOT seem the type!

Sounds like a much better choice. Be sure to explain that this part of a marriage building PLAN. People often musunderstand the motivation...that you are trying to preserve any love that is left by avoiding the continued pain and damage...not that you just don't want to talk to him or see him. If she understands the goal she will be a better IM. That fact that she has some understading of living with someone who drinks to much is all the better.

I'd get after making this change as soon as you can.

About the online meetings...

The other night we were only in an alanon chat. It was not a meeting. Chat is a great place to sort out your feelings but it is not a meeting. Here is a great on line meeting source. Look at the schedule.

http://groups.msn.com/Alanon/meetinglist.msnw

And remember, on line meetings are great when you can't go out but they should never replace your face to face meetings.

I would put this on an index card and tape it on your bathroom mirror, put in your purse, anywhere to remind yourself of your goal...saving yourself and the kids from the distruction of an A.

Deleted

I don't suck, he does. He was given the choice to stay here, get help, and work on our marriage...or leave, NOW. He left. This is not my fault.

OK...color me stupid but I don't understand your last post at all. please explain

Sorry, I deleted it. There's no excuse for me being that hateful towards myself. I've got a headache, I'm going to bed. Thinking of selling the big screen. I hate it.

Try not to be so hard on yourself Julie.


This is a tough situation and you are making great progress. Keep going, you are heading in the right direction. I wouldn't say it if i didn't mean it.

You're playing the mental tape recording of a drunk. We all have work to do on ourselves, but don't let the words of an A tell you who you are. I was told in alanon that those hateful words they throw at others are really what they see in themselves. I believe that to be true. I was never able to completely hit the erase button but looking back I see that those really were the thoughts he had about himself, not me.

Get some rest and see you tomorrow

Julie - another topic you touched on - your 11 yr old son is old enough to shovel a little old lady's sidewalks for his baseball money - I can guarantee you there's some snow for him to shovel headed your way - it just hit my sidewalks today.

He'll have the pride of having earned it himself, and he'll learn he can count on himself. I'd suggest you do the first one with him - buy him a shovel and tell him his first sidewalk needs to reimburse you for the equipment loan.

I did this with my son and he's progressing quite nicely - doesn't ask for money without asking what he can do to earn it - and he knows I'm not the only source for revenue. No more Mommy ATM.

Julie
Great to see it turn around last night.
Julie, you are in such a position here to “ raise the bottom”.

1.Talk to a tax Professional-Do you need H to fill out taxes????-

Do Not listen to H. He is not proactive about getting the taxes completed for you or the childrens benefit……….. ONLY HIS.

Talk to professionals.

From what you have told us H is self employed. When I have been self employed no taxes were taken out.
Julie has a regular job and taxes are probably taken out every pay period.
Has tax money from Julies paycheck payed H’s taxes in the past years?
I am in no way clear about this but I would bet Julie can file singly without H and probably claim only her wages.???? That may mean you can get 100% of the money YOU PAID IN FROM YOUR WAGES??
IS JULIE RESPONSIBLE FOR H”S TAXES????? I don’t know-

TALK TO PROFESSIONALS ONLY B-4 PROCEEDING

2. FILE WITH A LAWYER TO GET THE BALL ROLLING-
So much good advice in the posts from last night. Re-read them
If possible LSA/FILE FOR D
Get custody study going
Get child support amounts secured-If H pays it or not is another story
If H gets truck fixed – not Julies problem
If H keeps visitation schedule w/children???

Raising H’s bottom is what this is all about.
LOVEBUSTERS PAGE 242- DR. HARLEY SAYS “PROVIDE NO CARE AT ALL”

.Hopefully somewhere in all of this H will think that maybe I had it pretty good w/Julie. Maybe she is not asking too much from me.
We want you to look sharp, confident and strong. By showing those qualities H may get the message.

Open a can of whoopa$$ Julie-You can always put a lid back on it whenever you choose. You don’t have to be mean about it---Only ask for what is fair and right. That’s is only reasonable.


My opinion would be to use neighbor as IM. I liked the way SOT nicely fired SIL.

Thank GOD for a friend like SOT.

PLB for any type of situation is risky. Harley has never denied that it is risky anywhere that I’ve seen in writing. With an alcoholic/addict your competing with a substance that never fails to take the person to where they want to go. It makes it quite different than competing in infidelity. We count on the other person to fail and then we get our chance to hopefully reconcile.
Keep protecting yourself and your children. Your doing a wonderful job with it.
Keep puttin one foot in front of the other.


Rocky-Formerly known as Chris


Me 49 –
WH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Hey everybody. Actually, I thank God for all of you! You have been my sanity, my support, my "friends". Today I was emailing my SIL (my bro's wife) & I told her that currently, my support system mainly consists of friendly strangers via internet and/or Al-Anon, who share a common set of experiences. H's support system is the same, comfortable family & "friends" who share the same delusional, sick thought pattern. I know whose is "better".

KA, DS is 8 - DD is 11. DD can handle shoveling for cash, as she's got the commitment & the drive. DS, on the other hand, doesn't always do such a good job & isn't the entrepreneur DD sets out to be. Anyway I think your idea is great...the thing is, we wouldn't have necessarily let him sign up even if we were still together. Partly because of the money, but mostly because of his lack of commitment. What irked me about this case was he brought it up, dropped it, said he'd ask H, he asked H, and H decided to turn it into a "you & your mom must be attacking me here" thing. I think this made DS want it even more. I don't quite understand it but that's my observation. Kinda like the wrestling - it's just so out of left field!

Rocky, formerly known as Chris, you always knock some sense into me by simply telling it like it is. My SIL (bro's wife) does our taxes. She's not a "professional" but she's got degrees & she's done it for a few years. It's nice cuz she doesn't charge & she also waits for us, like if we have to find a receipt or something. Anyway, she's said there's pretty stiff penalties for filing separately - I checked into that RIGHT away (WHAT would H DO if I didn't handle the taxes FOR HIM!?!?!?!?!) but her recommendation is to file joint.

And SOT, thanks again, I like the way you fired SIL as IM too.

Tonight is Al-Anon/Alateen meeting night. Hopefully I'll be able to go - they're talking about some pretty nasty snow coming in so I won't risk our lives, but the kids already asked me this morning if tonight's the night so I do hope it's a GO!!!

Julie,
I've been reading through your thread and just wanted to say I understand what you're going through. It took me back to the time period when we went through a similar situation. You've been given good advice by many here.

I would reiterate what others have said regarding filing for D. You need the legal protection, period. Alcoholics are master manipulators and will turn anything around to 'their' benefit. I understand you don't have any money to spare, but here's what happened in our case years ago -- I engaged an attorney and we went to court. DH was ordered to pay ALL my attorney fees and his and all court costs. He tried to get out of CS too by saying he wasn't earning near what he used to, blah blah blah. I had brought copies of tax returns showing his previous income. The Judge ordered him to pay CS AND alimony, much more than I anticipated, and directly out of his check. The judge told him 'you are capable of earning such an income so you'll be ordered to pay at this rate'. H was floored.

I think your decision to do Plan B was wise. You have to extract yourself and your kids from the craziness the A puts in your life. It sounds like your H is well on his way digging a hole to rock bottom. Stay detached and let him fall.

You're doing great. I'll be praying for you.

Thanks AW. Seems you're still married? To the (F)A? Even after filing and court orders and all of that? That's terriffic. Who knows...!??!

What do you think your H's bottom was? Or, what made him 180 in '01?

I can't speak for A's wife, but it's usually not a 180. It's often hit bottom, flounder around and then a
g-r-a-d-u-a-l (aka grueling) climb up to recovery (or not, many don't make it out). At least that is the experience of most in my group. It is incredibly hard work for the A and the family of the A. No quick fix.

How many meetings have you been able to get to so far? I wonder because of the lack of sponsor, information on detachment and outline of the 12 steps. I want to be sure that your group is helping you as best they can. Did you get your daily readers yet? I have some extras I'd love to send to you, if that culd be worked out.

If you get your CS and visitation papers in order, you will have some power with the court concerning your H. I really wish you could use a lawyer instead of doing this yourself...I also caution you again (sorry) about saying too much to SIL. Be careful that she isn't passing valuable information to H and also that she is not giving H a Julie fix by passing information. You need to stay as dark as possible.

Did you guys get to your meeting tonight? how are the kids doing?

Yes we're still married, and have a happy marriage. My husband is still an A, probably what you'd call a functioning alcoholic, though he is a totally different person than he was 10 years ago. Drinking is his problem, not mine.

My husband hit bottom right after we went to court. It finally sunk in that he was about to lose everything; his family, home, everything he'd worked for. He was court ordered not to drink at all around DS, nor for a number of hours before scheduled visitation, and only was allowed supervised visitation. He was court ordered to attend several months of anger management classes. We went right down to the last days before the D would have been final and then he 'woke up' so to speak. What made him 180? God.

We went through a horrible time; I feel for you Julie and know what you're going through. What got me through was my faith in God and prayer. Stay strong, and believe. Stay with Al-Anon... it will help. I went for awhile, but found that church was a better fit for me.

THAT's what a lawyer can do for you, Julie!

Yes, most definitely get a lawyer. Many will work with you on the initial retainer fee. My atty took a small down payment (on mastercard) which was all I could afford at the time, and really pushed the issue so that H had to pay for everything even though he was claiming to be penniless.

Document EVERYTHING, and stay dark.

SOT, or anyone really, if you care to email me personally you may: alittleextramoney@yahoo.com

No, we didn't make our meeting last night. The weather got quite nasty very quickly, so I'm glad I wasn't driving in it. I spent a good amount of time right here reading, which is always a good thing to do too. I did have a guy come by to buy stuff though, so I've got grocery money - just in time!

I'm not sharing anything with SIL/H's siter/IM, I'm sharing things with SIL/my brother's wife/did LSA a few yrs back when my brother took an apartment w/a 18y/o! I've got my timeline in my head of how everying is going to unravel - firing SIL/IM/H's sister, selling stuff, doing taxes, getting attorney OR filing on my own.

You're right, I DO need a sponsor. I've seen/heard it mentioned a few times in meetings, but the vets, etc. kinda just look around...like those of us who have inquired didn't say the secret word yet so they don't have to really respond. It's weird. I'm still bopping around too, haven't necessarily found MY group yet.

AND............you know what today is................it's.............WEDNESDAY!!! That's right folks, you better be over the drama from the weekend and the shock from last Wednesday, because it's WEDNESDAY AGAIN!!! Last night the kids talked to H & of course, started in on me right away,
DS: the truck's still not fixed so only if you take us mom..."
DD: Well I want to stay after school anyway, so that's what I'm going to do

I interrupted them. I asked DS to please not finish his sentence, that if any PLANS are going to be changed or made, that it's not their job to make or change them, that Dad knows he needs to keep it between adults, so if he mentions anything to you just let him know you're not telling me anything - he knows to contact (IM). You guys need your time with him & on the phone with him to be YOUR TIME with him, so don't tell me about it & don't tell him about me.

They get it. Doesn't look like he'll be seeing them till...hmmm....next Wednesday, I guess! (Maybe)

This is really sad for the children.
Maybe I missed something in your posts Julie-How many times has H picked them up or had them at his apt??

Thanks for stopping over yesterday. It meant a lot to me.

I'd like to send you -if its ok- a photo that you may get a kick out of to the e-mail address you listed. Let me know if its OK

Everything will fall into place as long as JUlies puts one foot in front of the other......

Gotta run


Rocky

It's Wednesday at 4:56CST...do you know where YOUR children are? I do, they're right here, silly!

Yes, I will document. Document, document, document.

I didn't get an email or text or call from IM!

Well, we've got to go grocery shopping. The kids haven't asked me anything & I haven't said anything. It's weird, really, but nice. No "dad can't this-or-that" for once, all the while Dad's not doing what he's supposed to be!

Sure Nesre, you can send me an email - can't wait to see if it's from Rocky or Chris. This is my life. LOL

To answer your question, he's had them now...2 out of 4 scheduled Wednesdays. Weekends got all screwed up but he's gotten (DS/8, because DD/11 won't go) each time we had it scheduled...but dropped off early twice. Eesh, remember the letter he wrote me, that specifically said, "you say I'm a good father but why won't you let me be one?" or something like that? What a case!

To the Market!!

Only email I got is from eHarmony. How'd they know?

"It's OK to look"

Actually, no, do not look. I'm guessing that you were only joking, but in case you were not...

Setting aside the issue that you are still married, this is your time to focus completely and totally on you, your kids and the recovery of all of you That is your goal, right?

Glad you keep documenting. Keep doing it, trust me. Don't stop doing it. Do you see that in a short time you have already shown that he has not kept "being the best dad he can be" a priority? This is going to be enormously helpful to you when visitation is set by the court as well as possibly to show him, down the road, his actions as a dad.

You need to make getting to a meeting a priority, before the weekend. If you can't get to a f2f meeting, go the link I gave you for the online meeting...not just the chat room.

I will email you later in the day...I want to send you the daily readers from alanon.

talk to you later

None of the above!!

You have mail.

Rocky

I bet you didn't know I drove all the way over just to get that photo!!!!!!!

No doubt a lot of other spouses could ID their spouse from it to!!!!!!

Have a good one

Rocky

Evening everybody. I could use some feedback as I prepare for my weekend. I'll make it a list so y'all can answer as you see fit.

1. What book should I be reading? I've got Perfect Daughters on loan right now & SAA is somewhere in this house...but in TMTS's thread I've seen mention of Love Must Be Tough & a few others. I'm usually NEVER compelled to read, but since I am, you'd better take advantage! Am open to suggestions.
2. Should I draft a new PBL for when I get the new IM?
3. What if H finds an OW - does my Plan B or my direction or my anything change? Since I'm dark I won't even necessarily notice, but it's been on my mind so I wanted to ask.
4. How do you handle the estranged spouse coming into the house to get things in Plan B? I won't let him come till I've switched IM & sold everything I can, and I'm not switching IM till I've got the tax info in my hands, but that should all come together in the coming week. So, how do I handle the requests to come for more stuff?

This weekend is mine w/the kids, so no drama about H will take place. I'm to move my horse & Sunday is the Super Bowl. DS is not doing well - I got a really bad note home yesterday & I almost could have predicted it, as it was Wednesday & I'm sure it was really hard for him to try to contain himself wondering if Dad will come tonight...knowing he probably won't. Again. DS is SO into football...during the play-offs he kept calling H & wanting to see if he saw that kick, etc. It broke my heart then & it breaks my heart now knowing that once again, H won't invite DS to watch the game w/him. Glad he's respecting the NO BEER AROUND MY KIDS boundary, sad he can't just give it up as this is very important to DS. Anyway, I'm going to throw him the best, probably cheesiest, superbowl party here. Just me, DS & DD. I'll have a spread & even let him drink SODA!!

SIL/H's sister/IM is picking up tax info from H tomorrow night so I can get started on our taxes. I don't like that once again, I'm handling it. I double-checked with SIL/my brother's wife/does our taxes, and she doesn't recommend I file separately at all - I'll lose all my deductions she says - but man it just feels so much like enabling to do it for him, and then fork over the 40% he's requesting.

SOT, didn't get an email from you. Yes I was mostly joking, quoting the commercials. I'll be honest though, I'm lonely & (soon Mel will hear the fog horn going off here) H was very attentive/affectionate/doting between Fridays/binges. I was "spoiled" (between Fridays/binges) and I miss it. I know it's time to focus on me but I don't know how long I'll wait before I say screw it, and start dating or looking for companionship. No I'm not there now, but I'm being honest.

That's all for now folks. Sorry for the drivel. Been thinking & journaling & want to keep on the right path.

Hi Julie, this has been my first time all day to really spend any time on personal emails, etc....I'm glad you are being honest about your feelings and they are perfectly normal BUT the very LAST THING you need in your foreseeable future is a relationship with anyone. For more reasons than I can type on here right now. Do not put yourself in a vulnerable position. Be very careful about that.

If you read, "Perfect Daughters" you will see just how vulnerable and needy you are. It comes from the ACOA territory. If there ever was a time in your life to act with your HEAD and not your FEELINGS, this is it. Do not go there. It will only make things much worse for you, your kids and any shot at recovery.

Do you have a meeting scheduled for this weeknd?

As for the books, "Perfect Daughters" is about the effects of daughters raised in an alcoholic home. GREAT book. Read that one. "Love must be Tough" is another great choice.

Personally, I would focus on those instead of the marriage recovery books right now. They are awesome books, but your battle right now is the alcohol issue. Until that is resolved the marital recoery books won't do you a bit of good. Those concepts do not work with an active alcoholic spouse. JMHO

Raising the bottom here. That's co-dependent humor. I won't be here much but would sure like some more insight/answers to my questions aside from the books. Thanks!

Julie

I really need your address so I can mail ya this dating package..............

When you get that package your gonna find a little bag in it.

Inside that little bag is gonna be 27 marbles.

I know ya live where its cold but you really will need to find open water for this to work properly.

Find open water

Take a handful of the marbles and throw them just as far as you can into the water.

Its OK if you don't make them all in one throw.

If you need to take and throw the other handful.

VERY VERY IMPORTANT---Make sure they are very scattered

Now SOT and I are going to be checking and you gotta be extemely honest...............








When you find all 27 marbles then feel free to begin dating again.


We will check and enforce this strictly.

If you find someone elses marble it doesn't count

Have a good week end.

Co-Dependant No More-Melody Beattie


ROCKY

HUH??

Take care of yourself and your children

There will be lots of time for other things way down the road

Gotta run


Rocky

Julie



That post about dating

Rocky

I'm not thinking about dating! I'm thinking about...

Next POST

Rocky

Julie

For some reason your quote all stayed together but my answers are inbetween.

Rocky

Julie

From your post last night



I know it's time to focus on me but I don't know how long I'll wait before I say screw it, and start dating or looking for companionship. No I'm not there now, but I'm being honest.


I know-a day late and 2 dollars short

Rocky

Julie, I emailed you yesterday.

I don't know anything about marbels, but I think my kids sometimes think that I have lost all of mine sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1. Books to read. I gave my thoughts yesterday about the books you mentioned.

2. New PBL? I wouldn't. His roadmap back home has not changed. he must get sober. The IM could just introduce herself as the new IM. After you tell SIL of course. If you change anyting in the new PBL, or if he even perceives a change, it could appear to discredit your resolve. He could begin to think you were softening.

3. If H finds OW? I understand your fears, for sure, but this plan B is really about the new conditions in your life. he must get sober. IF he finds an OW, it still won't change that. Let's not worry too much about it unless it happens.

4. Him getting into the house for his things? I don't know what to say since you haven't found out legally what you can do. I would GUESS that technically you guys are still married, it's still his house, and if he forced your hand, he could just come and get them. This is definately a place where you need qualified legal direction.

Try to get to a meeting this weekend. This is where you go to get healthy. They want the A to do 90/90 and it's a good idea for you too. I am very concerned about you not having a sponsor and not making the meetings a priority.

Still with you...

Thanks SOT. I think, for now, you are my sponsor. It's not very likely at all I'll get to a meeting this weekend, but I'll see if maybe there are evening ones I haven't found out about yet. I've got to move my horse in the morning then hang out till the afternoon to make sure he's OK, then Sunday I've got a Science Fair meeting w/DD & a Super Bowl party for my boy. (Thought you'd at least appreciate my "excuses" are legitimate)

Took the kids sledding tonight. They had GREAT FUN! That felt good. They're used to me saying, NO! And then 2400 reasons why I can't do fun stuff w/them. Good times.

OK, no worries about an OW. Like I said, I wouldn't necessarily know it anyway unless the kids leaked it, and already since I laid it on the line for them the other night they really haven't said anything to or even at all about H.

Yea, I think he's definitely legally allowed to come here, and my PBL even says to contact IM for personal belonging matters as well as kids, finances, etc. Anyway I think it's best I'm not here, and I'm not comfortable w/current IM being here w/him but AM comfortable w/new IM, so I just need to stall him a bit. And SELL THAT STUFF!

I've got no email from you though! Did you send it to: alittleextramoney@yahoo.com ? I swear there's nothing from you!

Strange about the email. I didn't get a message that I had the wrong address. I checked the sent file and it was there so I just forwarded it to you. The subject line is sot.

I understand about all the stuff you need to take care of, but it just needs to be moved up on the priority list. I know how hard that is, but it's like getting a perscription from the doc, not taking the medicine and expecting a improvement in the condition, KWIM?

I agree about you not being there when he comes to get his things and I see your point about the IM part perfectly. You will just have to stall until the taxes are done. There is no court order that says he gets a certain percentage. Since you are filing jointly the check will come in joint name...something to think about how you are going to handle.

I am SO GLAD that you took the kids and had FUN! when you read Perfect Daughters you will find that ACOA kids often have a great deal of difficulty with "fun". It's a good book. I read it about 15 years ago and I still remember so much from it. I still have it around here somewhere.

Let me know about the email....
sot

I know you don't have a ton a support from anyone, but isn't there anyone that could watch the kids a couple of nights for an hour...hard with school aged kids I know, but just a thought.

In my circle of friends we trade off for evening activities instead of getting sitters all the time. Would that work?

How's your weekend going Julie? Been thinking about you.

Thanks for thinking of me! Yesterday was a LONG day, kids did the best they could to cooperate & stay out of the way. DD is quite sick, such a trooper. We're all looking forward to laying around the house today.

As for H, I do believe it's safe to say he has not called the kids since Tuesday. Crazy huh?

I changed the title of this thread again. My brother was over w/my nephew to watch the Super Bowl with DS/8. That was really nice, both boys are really into football & it was better than just me & DD/11 as company for him.

My brother & I don't have the greatest relationship but we seem to come together when it seems "necessary", like today when DS would rather be watching the 'Bowl w/H but can't, and my brother's kept in touch w/me about the sitch w/H & also ACOA & addiction.

About 3 years ago, my brother was in a full-blown A where he moved out & got an apartment w/his OW. There is no NC but anyway, he was VERY disappointed in me for selling H's things (I've almost run out of stuff to sell, which was good this afternoon but has me scared now) & changing the locks. I guess he knows from experience you can't legally do this(?) and thinks I'm being vengeful. He also said that for probably our entire marriage I've made more than him, I could end up owing H child support if this goes to court!

I don't know folks, I can't buy back the stuff I've sold. I kept telling my brother I'm not worried about this right now, I've got mortgages to pay & kids to feed, and I'll deal with all this if/when it goes to court...but what if he's right? I stand to lose a LOT here, and it won't happen tomorrow, but it scares me anyway. Honestly what I've sold is stuff H had talked about selling anyway...I don't know. OH, my brother also brought up the fact that people are advising me, based on their own experiences, but that these people don't know H. My SIL (brother's wife) said the same thing. I don't get their point - they're right, y'all don't know H, you've only heard "my version", but I don't know how they think that matters?

So, I'm worried. I can't UN-do what I've done by changing the locks or selling what I've sold.

Julie, your brother is wrong. You have done nothing wrong. If you H was doing what he was supposed to be doing, you wouldn't have to resort to selling what you can to survive. As far as you being ordered to pay child support... ain't gonna happen. That assumes that your H will be awarded primary custody... ain't gonna happen. He can't even be bothered to contact his children on a regular basis now. He is NOT supporting them financially, emotionally, spiritually or in any other way. There's NO WAY a court would give him custody. Don't worry about what you've done. You've only tried to provide for your children the best you can. As far as changing the locks... the only thing that might happen with this is that a Judge orders you to give him a key. I don't see that happening either. Stay strong. You're doing the right thing.

Thanks. I understand he's been thru this & when he had an apartment w/OW, he & OW consistently entered his marital home while SIL was out. I guess the police told SIL that my brother had the right to do this.

And duh, I was so wrapped up in being scared that I didn't even consider, 50/50 split is FAR from what we've got right now! He did say, "well if he's ordered to pay child support, it'll only be 17% of what he makes on paper, which has always beeen minimal on paper" Mmm hmm, so true. So I could be better off trying to enforce H's promise of "50% of my checks when I get on my feet" on my own than a court-ordered 17% of $10K!

Well anyway, this is only IF it comes to that. We shall see. Thanks for your support PM. I guess H did call today, talked to DD I guess. I didn't ask for details & she didn't offer any. He didn't have his tax paperwork ready when SIL/H's sister/IM went to pick it up from him Friday, so I don't know if he's intentionally stalling or what. Whatever.

What exactly doyou mean by "on paper" about income?

Julie, it doesn't matter what you made in the past... It's what you make when the divorce is finalized....

Example: A month before the final hearing for my first divorce my ex wife was making $8 or $9 and hour... on the final hearing day she was miraculously un-employed… they based her child support on how much??? That’s right minimum wage…. 5.15 an hr… she was ordered to pay $190.00 a month in child support for three kids… I got custody of the two we had together and her son from a previous… I didn’t care about the money as long as she was an active parent… she couldn’t even do that… she lived less than 2 miles from her kids and wouldn’t pick them up when she was supposed to … at one point she went over 14 months without seeing them…

Thanks for talking me off the ledge after my brother got a hold of me. I've got a new dilemma I haven't touched on yet. It's my (lack of) proper parenting. I find myself losing my temper, especially with my son. In reality, I wish H could see the damage that's being done - my son is a completely different kid since H left. And I'm not dealing well, because he's acted out at school & he CONSTANTLY argues with me. I think what I'm starting to see is him blaming me (though he has not voiced anything) for Dad being gone. Because Dad is nothing more than a novelty, when he comes around. It's not fair to me & my efforts, and it's also not fair to DS that I get angry as quickly as I do.

I know DS is hurting & not even really in touch with what he's feeling, hence my efforts to keep friends around for him & Alateen & getting people to come over for the Super Bowl. But it's not enough! I'm lost.

How did YOU cope when your spouse was out of the house, and the child/children had a really hard time with it? How do YOU control your temper?

Julie YOU are the only one that can control your anger. Your little guy is very young and he can't process or express his feelings with words very well yet. So, he uses what de can...actions. His acting out is just him trying to manage his feelings, inappropriately, yes, but that's all he's doing. He is probably scared, mad, confused, etc and this is how he getting that out. He is not doing it TO you.

If you see the acting out for what is really is it should help you not get so angry.

But, and you know this is coming, you HAVE to control your own responses to his pain. Yelling at him will make things worse. When he is acting out try asking him , "tell me what you are feeling right now". Or, "Use words about how your feel right now". Things like that. When my kids have a fit over something I just say , "use words" and they usually stop with the actions and start saying something. The we can talk about whatever the problem is.

That is not to say that he should allowed to act out at school and home. My point is to help you not to express your frustration with this situation with anger fowards him.

When we are yelling at our kids they KNOW that we do not have control over the situation. You lose a bit of your parenting power and respect. They NEED to see that you are in control. Not easy all the time, but important.

I hope this is not to jumbled.

I don't think I've posted to you before, Julie, but your post about your son acting up struck home for me.

When my FWH left the home, my son was three, and he acted out BIG TIME. HE shifted from being this really well behaved, obedient kid, full of laughter, to a young boy in turmoil, with major AO's at daycare, and physical violence against other children. THis lasted for some time, then it turned to sadness, and my DS telling me how much he missed his daddy.

My son would easily sway from one emotion to the next. IT was so tough to watch and work thru with him.

You can get help from the school system; they may have recommendations for counselors outside of school, or groups that could be helpful.

As for me, during all of this, I was very angry, and it was always bubbling at the surface, so I had some blow outs with my son. It really took me focusing on his pain and reminding myself of that, and to not ADD to his pain, to find ways to talk to him. Sometimes, I would just hold him, hug him, or touch him, to let him know I'm there. I also learned to listen to him, and validate his feelings.

None of this is easy, but it's especially hard on the children.

(((Julie)))

Julie




Keep on doin what your doin. Its healthy for DS to have a lot of friends around but also he needs to mind or earn some of these special favors too.

It may be worth a try to have a short sit down at a certain time each day or a couple of times a week where it is just you two. No distractions. Maybe ask DS to write down some of whats going on during the inbetween times with him and let him know you are open to discuss anything he wants to bring up.
He probably has questions –fears –frustrations-that he could vent. It may be tough to listen to but it may help him from acting out in school. If he feels safe it could be a real time of understanding for him and also you. This may also help him to see clearer exactly whats going on.

WE as adults see it quite often on these boards don't we???

When my W and I were separated in early 2005 at one point my W went dark for 10 days. No phone calls, no pu for visitation no nothing. My DD left phone messages, and texts for W over and over and over. It was only by allowing her to vent safely that she made it through. Even though it was venting I did not allow her to take it out on me but to let her bring it out –then try to move on. She was extremely angry. So was I.
I think the lesson taught her just how helpless we are over the actions/decisions of others.
Its Ok to be angry-get it out-then move on.


As for me I wrote a lot of poison letters that were ripped up or burned. At times I still do.
.


Rocky


Me 49 –
WH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Gotcha, thanks again. Yes, I need to control my anger, and I am ashamed to say I don't as often as I'd like. Yet I don't bad-mouth H, which makes me more angry actually, like I'm (still) protecting him! All while my relationship w/my kids is suffering! But that's my fault.

I did have DS write out his feelings, and to only bring them to me once he wasn't angry anymore. By the time he brought me the pad of paper he was cooled off & so was I, making me more receptive to seeing what he wrote about me.

Deep breath. This will likely get worse before it gets better.

There is no easy answer to this dilemma

boys especially will feel the loss of a Dad - and will be especially likely to express their feelings non verbally

If son is agreeable, enroll him in martial arts - or boxing - or something else physical as hayul

do you have a male role model available? grand pa? uncle?

call your local police department and ask what sort of youth programs they recommend for boys your son's age

there might be a fire department youth program - ask

if you are near a zoo - inquire about youth volunteers

keep him busy

We would get a better "version" of the truth from a practicing alcoholic? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ummmmmmm I think thats a little silly and reflects a general ignorance about the veracity of alcoholics who are notorious liars and blameshifters. I have no reason to believe your "version" was not the TRUTH and that is what matters.


You did nothing wrong, Julie, so there is nothing to undo. It is not illegal to change the locks on your own damn house. good grief. When was the last time you heard of someone going to prison for changing their locks?? Don't you have enough REAL PROBLEMS to worry about instead of worrying about problems you DON'T HAVE? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aw shucks, Mel, I've missed you! Thank you, really.

And Pep, thanks for the tip about the Police or Fire Dept, I'll get on that tomorrow morning! Too bad I didn't know about this yesterday, one of the guys who bought some of H's stuff is a fire fighter!!

OH, and no, no real good role models...Grandpa (my dad) is an alcoholic and just a jerk in general, the kids don't like to spend too much time w/him, and my brother is good (long as he doesn't talk to ME!) but he lives an hour away. So, I like the Police/Fire Dept angle. And karate too.

Got an email from SIL/H's sister/current but soon to be fired IM. For now I will ignore, but please let me know what you think.

Body of email reads:

day to you. (H) requested that I type this up and have you sign it, assuming you agree with the "terms". If you can sign it and fax or email it back to me, that would be super easy. If you have issues with any of it, obviously you can let me know and I'll forward that along to him. After you've signed, he will sign and return one copy to you with the rest of his tax forms (apparently he's still waiting on one piece).

Holla back!

Attachment that SIL/H's sister/current IM typed:

February 4, 2008

RE: 2007 Joint Tax Return for
Mr. (H) & Mrs. (Me)

Mr. (H) is requesting the following:

&#61692; 35% of the total 2007 tax return
&#61692; Copies of all completed and signed tax return documents

It is the assumption of Mr. (H) that Mrs. (me) will be preparing and filing the 2007 tax return online, using her home computer, and will request automatic deposit into her personal checking account; to which Mr. (H) no longer has access to. Once the money is in Mrs. (Me) personal account, Mr. (H) is requesting that his share be delivered to him through the designated intermediary (Ms. SIL) via personal check or money order in a timely manner.

Both parties agree to the above mentioned requests, and have signed below.

Obviously she's not neutral if she's typing up documents for him! Hard to say whose idea this was but that's irrelevant. Anyway...now what??

No response is necessary. Unless you say "35% less child support and 50% pmt of necessities for joint financial obligations should be fine."

Julie
For some reason I am getting an extreme bad vibe from this.

All my senses tell me JULIE'S gonna draw a short stick from this deal.

I'm still thinking -try to get back to ya later.

Rocky

Before I saw this (she sent it to me @work) I sent her an email this morning (from home) that said:

1. Will kids be picked up/dropped off tomorrow per our visitation schedule (he's been quite flaky w/this lately)
2. When can I expect to see financial contribution?

She responded that she'll get w/him & let me know. Didn't ask me anything about her email/"requests".

REALLY feeling like I need that attorney right now! And still going to have SIL/my bro's wife/does our taxes check into how bad off I'll be if I just do my taxes separate from H. I don't like the direction this is heading. I'm not signing anything. Ridiculous.

Thats exactly how I would feel.

Some of the tax preparers have loans b-4 you get your return back. Maybe use it to secure atty?

Who told you you would take a big hit filing seprately?

Rocky

Big is also open for interpetation. Is big several hundred? several thousand?

Whats big to you?

Rocky

Who told you you would take a big hit filing seprately?

My SIL/brother's wife. She's done our taxes for us for a few years now, since H has been self-employed. She said I'll lose a lot of the deductions if we don't file joint. But at this point it'd almost be easier to do it that way. She can run it both ways, to see if it's do-able, but that would require me to have H's paperwork in my hand & apparently I'm only going to get it if I sign this d*mn "contract" he & his sister drew up! UGH

I'm not going to a commercial outfit & I'm not incurring MORE debt so that I can hire an attorney. That's pretty counter productive, given the state of my/our credit/finances.

Has he paid you any child support?

Not a lick.

Julie, I went through an ugly separation/divorce at this same time of year.

My soon to be ex had not paid a dime of support, either. He kept sniffing around the tax refund, waiting for the check to come in the mail (we filed paper), and calling me every day, asking if it came. Offered to split it with me 50/50, and my house payment was $1400 a month and three months unpaid at that point.

The day it came, I forged his name, signed my own and dropped it into the account I had to create for myself after he cleaned out the joint account months before.

I stalled as long as I could, then he called the IRS himself and found out the check had been mailed some time earlier. He had his lawyer pull me into court the following week and tried to have me jailed for forgery.

I brought receipts that showed that I made the three months' back mortgage payments, plus utility receipts (we had a 4 and a 5 year old daughter who still needed heat and food and clothes). When the judge asked him how much money he'd given me since he left, he said that the court hadn't ordered him to...yet.

The judge asked him if he was crazy and dismissed his motion.

Keep your paperwork, do your taxes yourself and have the money dropped into your account. Just hold on to it if you don't feel right catching up on bills with it.

Don't pay a preparer to get your refund on the spot. If you e-file, you usually have your return in your account in less than two weeks (usually ten days).

Julie, I would tell your SIL that you will agree to sign it and file your taxes jointly if he brings his child support up to date and keeps it up to date. What amount did you ask for previously?

He needs to be concerned about supporting his own children and household before he even thinks about getting tax refund money. It is AMAZING that he would have the NERVE to ask for refund money when he won't even support his own kids. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You just HAVE to get a laywer, Julie, and force him to pay support.

Yikes, I guess this just became an ugly separation/possible divorce, didn't it?!

I plan to e-file.

I didn't consider the fact that we need to each sign, and as I recall it we don't, because we e-file from home/online with my SIL's guidance. (She double-checks everything & lets me know if I missed a receipt or skipped a blank, etc.)

I don't necessarily plan to forge his name but I also will not "agree" to any certain percentage w/o knowing what I'm looking at. It also seems I cannot file until/unless I sign his stupid "agreement" because I don't have his paperwork yet.

So, do I sign it, pretending to "agree to his terms"? Or do I delay, making him squirm (he probably realizes he NEEDS my paperwork to off-set his, along w/child tax credits & mortgage interest deductions, etc.) I cannot believe my husband is #1 trying to make me sign a document agreeing for ME to give HIM money, and #2 STILL not contributing to the support of OUR child(ren) or OUR bills! This is utter insanity!

Julie, change the paper around to say that you will give him 35% *IF* all back child support is paid and kept current. State that if not, you will be filing singly by XYZ date.

Two words and a brand name, Julie - "Tax Cut" by Kipplinger

Julie - please get this - you can find a way once you no longer want to be a part of the drama. When you reach this point, you will borrow the fees for the lawyer from a family member or friend or neighbor, but you will find the money. You can even get a lawyer to assign a lien to the tax return if you are good at negotiating and have the taxes there for him to see that there is a refund coming. You can then have your lawyer require your WS to pay his legal fees for trying to starve you and your children into submission.

Stop the drama. Find a way.

Finally - one last point, then I'll get to work - your SIL should be the LAST person to do your taxes this year. You might as well go to the person convicted of tax fraud last year because he ripped off his clients and have him do your taxes, as to have her do them. She doesn't need to know how much is coming.

KA, thanks for the posts. Please elbarate when you have a chance on "Tax Cut".

Also, I'm speaking of 2 different SILs here - SIL/H's sister/current IM is the one who drew up this fancy little document for H. SIL/MY brother's wife/does our taxes/has been thru my bro's EA/PA & an almost-divorce is fine to do my taxes, as she always has.

You're right, if I want out of the drama I'll find a way out & I thank you for your bluntness about this. I feel silly borrowing money or even spending it, for that matter, on an attorney when I still hold onto some hope our M will recover. But it's not looking that way, now, is it?

Lastly, as I was getting coffee a thought jumped into my head. What if I reply to SIL/H's sister/current IM's email/document by saying, "I'm not signing this. He has offered NO support for OUR kids or OUR bills. We will resolve this in court." I think saying that will #1-scare the crap outta him and/or #2-actually get this to court & somewhat remove the drama.

Thoughts?

Kayla I think you have the SIL's confused....this isn't WH sister that is doing the taxes (the IM)....it is her brothers wife....

Julie, they are not mutually exclusive choices. You can file for divorce, get yourself financially protected and STILL recover your marriage if he meets your conditins. There is NO REASON to not file for divorce and every reason TO DO IT. You must have financial assistance. It is his legal obligation to do so.

Please figure out how to file, Julie, and have a judge order him to pay CS. It is outrageous that he is not paying you CS.

Julie, I'm thinking that you don't even need the hard copy of his information if you're e-filing (which you can do by yourself). I think you can request a copy of his reported income from the IRS and use the information they provide. Everything was supposed to be reported to the IRS by 01/31/08 (as far as W2s, W9s, etc).

I wouldn't sign anything. That's a joke considering he has yet to support his children.

I'm overwhelmed and p*ssed off!

I'm not signing anything. I don't know if I will or if I should respond to SIL/H's sister/IM's email. I still don't have an answer on whether or not he's picking up kids tomorrow! Gosh I hate him. Really, right now I truly do.

I've got this timline in my head that was just rocked a bit. It went...
1. Sell as much as I can (mostly done)
2. Get tax info & file (now held up per "contract")
3. Fire SIL/H's sister/IM, designate neighbor/on my side/looking out for MY KIDS as new IM
4. Let him in house supervised by new IM to get whatever belongings he claims to be interested in.
5. Bring bills current with tax refund, give H "some"
6. File for D by myself or hire attorney, get proceedings started for him to pay CS
7. Margaritas. Lots & lots of margaritas (I kid, I kid)

Anyway he can get bent.

Julie

Don’t want to get into your finances and I am no tax expert but I have been self employed at short durations in my life.

Heres a few items to consider

I would not sign anything WITHOUT IT all out into the open.

Does H get a 1099 at the end of the year? SELF EMPLOYMENT FORM

If he does then it means he pays in no taxes all year long.
When you file jointly H’s taxes are paid out of BOTH of your returns.
In other words the money JULIE has taken out of her pay check on a regular basis all year may go to pay H’s taxes.

H has yet to contribute fianacially. Why should he share in a benefit of M????

Just my guess and opinion-H needs you more than you need Him for taxes. Without Julies withholding from her paycheck all year

HE MAY HAVE TO PAY IN >>>>>WOULDN’T THAT BE A SHAME TO GIVE H

A NEW BOTTOM IN HIS LIFE…………..

JUST ME-----I would make H squirm big time

JULIE doesn’t’ “enable” H in any way.

Julie gets the money for atty…File for D….ANOTHER BOTTOM…….Remember –you can stop at any point and try to recover M if H is willing…….

You may have to take a loss right now talk to your SIL tax preparer-If I am not wrong Taxes can be amended for up to 3 years. If you have to go back at a later point it would be OK. Right now this may make H really squirm

I would get a full printed set of the return with all H’s #’s. and have Your SIL draw a comparison w/H’s income and Just Julies income.

IF YOU CAN LIVE W/THE DIFFERENCE THEN I WUOLD MAKE H SQUIRM.

Just my hunch-You may be surprised.?
At least you will know.

#5-Why would you support H in any way????????????

Rocky


Me 49 –
WH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

I agree Nesre, and SIL & I are going to look into that. You're dead-on, he's 1099 & my taxes have always off-set his. I will lose deductions but I'm willing to risk it. He will absolutely squirm. (And have MORE reason NOT to pay me CS...till I slap him w/a judgment! (At which point he will be VERY angry/unwilling to reconcile, OH well, I hate him right now anyway))

All Julies doing is making sure H does not benefit from the M in any way.

What started all this?? Was it H's choice to---------?????
.

SO WHAT if H gets PO'd So F....in What

A judge will see to it he pays support of some kind regardless if hes angry or not.

Your just looking for him to take care of financially your children

AND HOUSE-which he probably has an intrest in-


Get to the atty-then drag your feet.....

I think Julies almost ready to open a can of whoopa$$

Watch out
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Rocky

Only can I'm holding right now is a can of F-U. Seriously, the gall! I really appreciate the support folks, I really do. I'm going to be OK.

In response to my email to SIL/H's sister/current IM this morning that said:

"1. Will kids be picked up/dropped off tomorrow per our visitation schedule (he's been quite flaky w/this lately)
2. When can I expect to see financial contribution?"

SIL/H's sister/current IM got word from H:
"He said he will get them tomorrow night and the fact that he's giving you 65% of the return answers the second question. He's not working has no money."

Do y'all remember the letter he wrote me (on paper, in his handwriting, currently located in my jewelry box) where he said he'd give me 50% of his checks? Or how about the phone call in which he asked me not to get lawyers involved, because he's going to contribute?

I wonder what made him change his tune? I wonder what's causing all this irresponsibility in my once-very-caring-and-responsible husband? He obviously is honing some resentment or something. Weird. New low AGAIN.

I ain't signin' nothin'

In my sick little cartoon bubble head the picture I'm gonna send you would come from your H to you--------->in response to asking him about this

Remember-Laugh or we'd cry all the time.

Hope ya enjoy

You'll have mail soon. Wish I new how to put it up for all to see.

Rocky

Thanks Nesre. You do have the pick-me-ups!

I haven't cried in a while. I'm too ANGRY!

I would see an attorney before you get in bad shape financially. Hubby will have to pay child support or go to jail - his choice.

Do y'all remember the letter he wrote me (on paper, in his handwriting, currently located in my jewelry box) where he said he'd give me 50% of his checks? Or how about the phone call in which he asked me not to get lawyers involved, because he's going to contribute?

He had ZERO intentions of supporting his children. He needed to make sure that you wouldn't take any action to get it, that is why he said what he said. He KNEW that if you filed for LSA or divorce that he would be forced to pay support. He couldn't risk that so he gave you lip service.

He's not working has no money."

Well, he is probably thinking that he has kept his word, afterall, 50% of nothing is nothing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I wonder what made him change his tune? I wonder what's causing all this irresponsibility in my once-very-caring-and-responsible husband? He obviously is honing some resentment or something. Weird. New low AGAIN.

I think that if you were to be totally honest with yourself, you would see that he has never been that responsible....few alcoholics/illegal drug abusers ever are. They would take food out of the mouths of their children for their next drink/fix.

He moved out in December...it might be possible for to file as Head of Household. Check out irs.gov and see what the criteria is.

committed

I'm re-reading old posts & picking apart advice and thinking and wondering...

I wish it were simple to know what I can do RIGHT NOW with the means and the resources I've got RIGHT NOW. My "plan" is blown to he!! now that he's not forking over the paperwork. He called the kids tonight & I guess his truck is running again. Act of God? I think not - broken trucks cost MONEY to fix! He celebrates this w/my children over the phone after they've watched me exchange money w/umpteen strange men who've come into the house to buy H's stuff. They know I was doing this to pay bills. Such audacity.

I think tomorrow I'll respond to SIL/H's sister/current IM's email with "I'm not signing this. I will let the courts decide" and then pick up the paperwork & file on my own. I've got to get off this pot!

No response - no indication of your plan. He doesn't deserve the warning. Besides - responding keeps you engaged in the drama - and your recovery depends on every single choice being calculated to reduce the drama exposure - let him feel it. You just find a way to get what you need - for example, call his employer and stop by and pick up a duplicate W-9.

P.S. - Tax Cut is a computer tax program I have used for over 10 years now - It imports my records from last year so all the basic data is only input once. If I'm with the same employer, or the same W-9 contract, that data all stays the same and I just import this year's numbers. It has a questionnaire for each business deduction and prompts reminders to help you audit-proof yourself.

Sorry for mixing up sisters-in-law.

PS - asking for help is far from SILLY - the idea that you'd use that word tells me you aren't to the point of taking your situation that seriously - and girlfriend - it's serious as a heart attack!

Get the loan and get the lawyer - sue his sorry [email]b@tt![/email]

Julie, file. get it done. Do not give him notice.

Julie

Bites when reality sets in.





ENOUGH OF THAT CRAP.

I would keep silent with SIL IM.

Is SIL a tax professional??

I don't think you need H's paperwork to file taxes by yourself.

Let us know.

Prayin for ya

Rocky

Hey Nesre, thanks for your post and for your prayers. Yes, it bites when reality sets in & that's precisely why I left this thread alone. KA is probably right - I'm not ready - and there's a bit of shame that goes with that but obviously not enough motivation to change it. I don't know why, I do know it's stupid, that's all I got.

Of course it hurts to think his "thoughtfulness" was just manipulation all along but it's eye-opening, and again probably true. The power of looking back is an amazing thing. Like, our fun family vacation - not so much cuz he was crabby I wouldn't "let" him drink. And lots of other things along those lines.

Julie

It is how we (when we use) alcoholics work.

A dry drunk works in the same way (behaviors) but no booze.

Its why its so important for us to work a recovery program

I'm gonna leave ya alone now

Maybe you could try #7- JUST KIDDING




Rocky

He's got the kids & I'm home, snowed in, watching Oprah (good one today! Got some book ideas!) when DD/11 comes thru the door. She came for more pants as they're going sledding. H is close behind her so I tell her to tell him he can't come in. He says, "I don't want to come in, but can she come to the door?" I told her just go get her pants, so she did, and as she was leaving I told her to remind him if he wants to contact me to use SIL/H's sister/IM. I really HATE that WE did that to DD. Way too much to ask her to handle.

I'm shaking. The neighbor (soon to be (hopefully) new IM) calls to make sure I'm OK. Thank God for her & her family - she's got 3 boys who are my age, all were there ready to come over if need be. SO grateful for them, I am.

Anyway I wonder what he wanted...maybe he's ready to get help? Maybe he had money for me? Tax paperwork? Or more likely he had some stupid banter about nothing at all. Gotta get back to Oprah, she's got lots of positive people on today.

Anybody here read "The Secret"? Or "You Can Heal Your Life"? Think I'll pick them up. I'm tired of reading up on alcohol & the people who abuse it.

Hi Julie,

Well, he finally came for his visitation. I bet the kids were happy about that. I'm sorry that your daughter got caught in the middle a bit, but it sounds like it went OK.

I am personally not into "The Secret" stuff, but a lot of people are. It's Ok to take a break from the alanon reading, but just keep it at a healthy break. This is for your recovery. It's hard work and worth every bit that you put into it.

Remember, you still have a lot of work to do. Work on your recovery and work on getting yourself protected.

Still here for you...

Good morning everybody. I know I've got a lot of support here & I really appreciate that. I also know you're getting sick of me as I really haven't DONE anything to better my situation, aside from attending meetings, etc.

I have some questions & hope, even though you're frustrated, you're willing to offer more of your great insight:

1. Since the taxes are up in the air, leaving my attorney opportunity up in the air, would you agree it's at least a step in the right direction to file for D on my own? I can DL the forms online, fill out, and have SIL/H's sister/current IM "serve" him as I can include the papers w/mail, etc. Should I do this?
2. Regarding H's desire to get in the house & get more stuff out - should I arrange this so that I'm not home? And IM is here to let him in & "supervise"? I won't arrange this w/current IM, his sister, I'll arrange it once the switch has been made. Because as my kids said last night, "he's going to be mad. And when he's mad he breaks stuff". So while I know he won't do it w/my neighbor, he'd likely be vengeful if his sister were here. So how should I handle letting him in? (Or should I continue to ignore this request as well?)

That's all for now. I know you're frustrated with me. I recognize I'm still inviting/welcoming/surrounded by drama. I'm trying to stop that. What do you think?

yes and yes!

1. Yes

2. It depends...I am not so sure that he should be coming in the house and removing a thing. I would compromise and box up his things...set them outside...let him come get them with the IM. It is untelling what he would take if he thought it could net him a couple of bucks.

I have to disagree with Mel on number 2. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<ducking>

committed

kiss my hiney! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

However, on second thought I have to agree with C&L [dang, why can't you come up with a shorter name like SUE or something?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />] because it won't be a good idea to have him in the house. GEt a list from him and box his crap up and set it on the curb!

lol

C&L sounds good.

I remember a few years back, someone let their WH come in get "some things" and he helped himself to stuff in the fridge and in the pantry. He dayum near cleaned out all her food. He was going to be having the kids over, and he had to feed them...doncha know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

NEVER a good idea to let them in they will only help themselves to everything.

committed

It is too much WORK to type that &! I think I will call ya COMMIE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] COMMIE???[/color]

Lorda Mercy.....

First youse call me a Yankee...

and now a COMMIE...


<THUD>

C&L

Ha ha, good points Mel & Commie. Actually, last I knew he was in the house, before PBL, I DID notice some stuff missing from the pantry, and we suddenly had less TP too! Pssshhht!

I'll see if I can get a list of what he's after. But the things I know of so far are BIG & he'd likely be bringing a friend to move them - a loveseat in the basement that he wants to "swap for a big chair he's got" I'm not interested in a chair & have been thinking of tellling kids/seeing if they'll talk to him about the loveseat, as we've turned his former basement domain into a rec room for them & they're using the loveseat, and won't benefit from some stupid chair. The "trying to get a couple bucks" comes to mind on this one.

Next is his snake, which is housed in a VERY HEAVY 125gal aquarium w/VERY HEAVY stand. I don't think he's planning on selling snakey (but ya never know) but again, the kids have voiced an interest in keeping him for themselves. I hate to put the kids in the middle or use them to talk to him, but I do believe it directly affects them so they may want a chance to tell H they want this stuff to stay. And since he hasn't already taken it, I wonder if it's just an excuse to get in.

Needless to say, it's not stuff I'm putting on the curb as it's physically impossible for me. He told the kids last night he's going to take the snake & "my speakers & my amps & cymbals too" I asked if they told him it'd all been sold and they said they didn't say anything, "just looked at each other funny, like, 'uh oh'" I told them "it's not uh oh, I needed money because we have to pay bills"

So I think I'll just continue to ignore the requests about stuff. I'll have the kids tell him they want the loveseat & snake to stay. And maybe at some point, WAY down the road, I'll have IM tell him I've sold his crap.

Julie, our friend, COMMIE, does have some good points at times!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Commie, get ya [censored] up offa the floor, girlfriend, it is unseemly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Julie, our friend, COMMIE, does have some good points at times!!


Just call me cynical. lol

The bad things that they can do is always at the front of my mind.

C&L

Hey guys (gals), would you mind showing RIM a little love on her thread? She's a MB flight risk right now & while I understand why, and I resepect whatever decision she makes, I think she could really learn some things here. Can you hop over there? It's about mid-page.

Hey Julie

Thanks for trying to help.

Its hard to read and really brings out the feelings of how helpless we are. Was I too hard on her?

Saw your posts y-day and agree w/ML and Commie.

I guess I would try to hold H off from getting into the house as long as I could.

Hope you have a great weekend.

Stay warm

You, your children and your H are in my prayers

Rocky

Hey Rambo (isn't it time for a name change?),

Nah, you weren't too hard. Well actually, we both WERE too hard on her. As much as I want to reach thru the monitor & grab someone by the shoulders and/or hug them, I have to remember we cannot control another human being. Not even one who is in the very shoes we once were and all we want to do is help them see. It's weird, really, because I've only had this new-found clarity for 2 months now, and I still revert to my denial-days. So, in time, and hopefully she will find support...somewhere.

Again, I sure do appreciate the prayers. They're working! I had a FANTASTIC day today - it was one of those days where all your hard work & beating your head against a wall & feeling like you're spinning your wheels comes together. Got a BIG PO (I'm in Sales) from a client I've been shmoozing since Nov. Signed the boy up for Soccer, (he chose soccer over the $75 baseball he's been trying to talk H into paying for. What'd soccer cost me? $9!!!!)

Sa-WEET!!!

I'm just feeling peace today. Don't know what tomorrow will bring but I'm truly loving life today. OOOOooh, actually I do know what tomorrow will bring - horsey time! My mom's taking the kids for the afternoon so it's just me & the best horse EV-AH! Can't wait.

Have a great weekend everybody!

Hey everyone, hope you all had a great weekend. Ours started out great - I landed a big account Friday, then yesterday the kids hung out w/my mom - did her laundry for her to earn a few bucks - meanwhile I played horsey & came home and FIXED the shower curtain dealie, ALL BY MYSELF! VERY liberating! Today it was so cold we pretty much stuck to the house.

Tonight at dinner, for whatever reason, DD/11 brought up "Dad". I guess last Wednesday he started off their visit with, "I know you guys don't want to do this, but we have to talk..." He said I've lied to his family (his mama must have told him (HER OPINION) about the email I sent, it's posted in this thread somewhere), "slandering" him, that I don't love him anymore, that he lives in a jail cell (aw, this made me cry), that my Al-Anon & their Alateen ppl are telling us he's an alcoholic, that he doesn't get enough time with them, blah - blah - blah.

Basically they wanted to bounce this stuff off me because they're afraid to defend me or themselves to H. Now, so far our "rule" is we don't talk about H, and they're not to talk to H about me. But, I guess he keeps bringing me up. I told them I understand he's angry/hurt/scared, and that I love him so much, I want him back here, healthy. They know, but I reassured every chance I got. We've been SO STRONG for this whole week, we all bawled tonight. Sometimes that's therapeutic.

So, I told them they can talk to me about this stuff if they want to, but that I won't be coming to them with questions about Dad or initiating it. Is that OK?

DD said that H asked her, "did she tell you about Grandpa?" (My dad) and DD said to him, "No, but that's Grandma's problem" (LOL) H told her I'm doing this because of my childhood w/my dad. I said to my kids, "that's partly true, and another reason why YOUR childhood won't have this disease in it anymore!"

I wish they felt comfortable talking with him. So far, all they can do is nod their heads as he carries on about how evil I am and how "she hasn't told you the WHOLE truth" True, I didn't tell them he's a pot-head too! (Should I?)

DD/11 said, "I want to ask him what's more important - his friends or his family? But I can't ask because I'm afraid of the answer" (LOTS of crying on that one) I told her she deserves to know the answer, and I think it's a great question - when she's ready.

Lastly, he asked DD the address of the Al-Anon meeting, because he'd like to go to one. I told her THAT'S GREAT! She's planning to give him the list of meetings she got w/her beginners packet. It only occurred to me just now that he could be planning on crashing MY meeting, to make a scene...hmmm...originally I thought maybe he was thinking of going for himself.

Well anyway, that's how our night went. Did I handle it OK? I re-iterated several times he's sick, and it's normal for him to deny or blame-shift. I also showed them the email I sent to the family, and I showed them the responses except for MIL's. So now they know "the WHOLE truth" (except that he's a (former??) pothead) I didn't bad-mouth, but I sure didn't excuse or OK his actions or words about me. He told them it's OK he ripped the railing out of the wall (drunk, last year, as part of the post-birthday-party fiasco) because he was going to replace it anyway. And it's OK he kicked the mailbox, because it was going to be him to fix it anyway. DD said, "but normal families don't have their mailbox on their porch!"

I know, I'm ALL wrapped up in the drama right now. But my kids have been marinading in it for a week, so I'll take it. I don't know how to best help them. DD did say, "I can't wait to go to my Alateen meeting Tuesday"

What about filing for D - I was planning to do so this week, on my own, to at least get something filed in an attempt to #1 Slap H w/a bit of reality & #2 Get CS ordered. I feel like I should tell the kids what I'm doing so they don't hear it from H. But it's going to scare them, rightfully so, and I'm not sure how much I should tell them. That I hope it doesn't come to that? That I'm jsut doing it to get CS? Don't tell them anything? BIG deal on this one.

My poor children. They are trying so hard.

One more thing. On Wednesday, when DD came back to get snowpants, the key came up:

DD: Well if mom's not home I won't be able to get in, because I don't have my key.
H: I still have a key. She doesn't know that, but she doesn't need to know.
DD: She changed the locks.
H: Great, I thought we could handle this as adults, but I guess I'm going to have to get a lawyer to get my stuff out.


BWAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

Lawyers are 'spensive, he's SO very obviously trying to play my kids! What gives!?!?

You handled it perfectly! Shame on your H for sliming you to those kids! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And he keeps doing it, I guess. Mel, what should I tell them to help them deal with this? I'm going to have them ask for a phone list @their next meeting. Or just see if someone from my group is willing to take on a kid call?

What about the D filing? What do you think?

OH I want to call him so badly. I know better, because he'll just make me feel like crap, but I just want to run to him, bring him home, rescue him from the apartment and the feelings of loneliness that go along with it. Poor rockstar has no beer money & no "shows" lined up this month (20-something girls falling at feet, free beer, adrenaline high from performing)

I think you deal with it the same way you dealt with it today. Encourage them to ask you questions and tell them there will be no secrets.

I think you should file for D YESTERDAY!

Will you settle for tomorrow?

Julie - You are doing so well. Don't call him!!!! If you get desperate, use your energy to go clean the toilets. At least that will be productive and make you feel better.

He is just beginning to feel the consequences of his choices, let him experience them.

I know it, Believer, about the beginnings of consequences - after I posted about calling him I thought what I SHOULD do is go even DARKER if at all possible! The bottom MIGHT be rising, here!

And thanks for stopping in, I appreciate it!

OH - got my new IM. Good to go. Suggestions, anyone, on how to make the transition smooth on H's end? I've got a nice little "you're fired" email a couple pages back for SIL/H's sister/current IM, but I don't know how to handle letting H know there's a new Sheriff in town. I DO know there's no new PBL letter though. So...what to do? Have SIL/H's sister/current IM tell him the gig is up??

Julie

I went back through and read your old posts over the w-e.

You are doing so gr8 with all of this.

Glad you got some horsey time in!!! -45 wind chill at my house Sat and Sun-didn’t venture out too far.

Children-Good you can talk. I would keep it all open to answer questions they have but wouldn’t volunteer info on POT unless they specifically ask. I wouldn’t lie about it if they ask,.
What possible good would it do to volunteer the info? JMO

I’m with MelodyLane-Its almost noon Monday-DO you have the papers filed yet????
Remember –you can stop the ball from rolling at any time.

We all know you miss H but now, as the situation is, is the time to keep dark and pour on the consequences of H’s poor decisions.

ONLY with strong consequences will your message have a chance to get through to him.

Your PBL-Does it specifically tell H what he has to do to help resolve this situation???
(90 in 90 plus medallion/completion of a treatment program?)
JMO-Do not even consider any type of reconciliation until H meets at least one of these.


I hope H didn’t want to go to your meeting or the childrens?
Is there a meeting for H at the same time and location? If there is he may make an “”attempt””?!!? to show you hes willing to do something. NOT SURE????

That why I asked about clear stated PBL.

IMO if the PBL isn’t clear then I would write a new one with your clear stated boundaries (no alcohol-list of how to help resolve the situation) and the new IM situation.

Rocky (Rambo)


Me 49 –
WH 1987
A/CD treatment 8/1986
DS 24
DD 14
Married 25 yrs
WW 43
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1 ½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapse
Treatment 12/06 W-Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Me-Houston-We have a problem (we need to work on) here

Hey Nes,

Thanks for the post. I don't know...I think a second PBL at this point would just be "contact" coming from me & I don't want that. I got a bit of proof yesterday, from my kids, that my being totally dark for the past month is starting to have an effect so I don't want to break that.

I got the forms online & everything, have been reading up, and you'll all hate & desert me for this, but I don't know that I can file D. I'm back to LSA. My kids will be devastated if I file D, and it'll be hypocritical.

I felt very empowered today. Very much "OK" and at peace. I don't quite get it!

I'm not going to call H. I won't write a new note. I won't even check up on him and I certainly won't "bend" on my plan. But I'm very worried about him. He didn't call the kids tonight - and instead of my thoughts being he must be drinking or with an OW as in the past, tonight I worried about him. He's always been able to fill many roles but shame is not something he wears well. I'm worried about his emotional state and I don't want to do anything that will "push" him in any direction. I'm not calling anything off, I just feel very concerned for him.